# Schiit Lyr 3 Tube rolling thread.....



## ilikepooters (Jan 21, 2019)

*EDIT*

List of the popular tubes so far, maybe slightly biased towards tubes i own because i can't remember all the good tubes currently  i'll edit in peoples impressions at a later date.

In no particular order:

Top 3 popular tubes:

Sylvania 2 or 3 hole "Bad Boy"

*Foton 6N8S Ribbed for her pleasure. (50's vintage?)*









bcowen said:


> My top pick for an extended treble that you can play at stupid-loud levels without fatigue is the ribbed plate Foton 6h8c (6n8s). This has become my favorite in the Lyr. It's a foot-tap inducing, goosebump creatin', air guitar demanding musical groove tube that has caused me a lot of lost sleep. Be aware though that this tube is not a bass hammer. While the bass is tuneful, dynamic, and in correct proportion to the rest of the frequency range, it doesn't slam and bam and rattle your inner ears like some other tubes can.



Westinghouse 6SN7 GT, GTA or GTB D getter

The rest:

*MELZ 1578*






See above picture for identifying a genuine MELZ 1578.


			
				ilikepooters said:
			
		

> Easily one of the finest 6SN7 (or equivalent) ever made, it's right up there in performance with the likes of a Marconi B65 and a Brimar black glass.
> 
> Huge open soundstage. Laid back treble is the only mark that would otherwise let me call this tube neutral but it's enjoyable, detailed and non-fatiguing. Bass is nice and tight and controlled, mids are lush sounding.




*PSVane 6SN7-SE*






			
				earnmyturns said:
			
		

> Psvane 6SN7-SE is pricey, but to my ears it beats the already very good 2-hole Sylvania Bad Boy and Ken-Rad VT-231 that I also own: better layering, tighter but ample bass, very smooth mids and highs, faster transients.



KenRad VT-231 Black glass
MELZ 6N8S (50's or 60's)
Raytheon 6SN7 WGTA
Brimar 6SN7 GT (Clear glass, orange print)
Brimar 6SN7 GT (Black glass, brown base)
Marconi / Osram B65

There have been some successes using adaptors, particularly the Loktal 7N7 tube which is a 6SN7 but with a Loktal base, in particular there is a Frankentube version of this which can be any make but of a particular construction. See @bcowen or @Freeflap or @Ripper2860 for advice on identifying this tube.

Other adapted types:

E80CC Tungsram (Neutral but sounds full, not thin, good extension top and bottom, very detailed and fast, good soundstaging)
NEVZ 6N1P-VI (Mild U shape to it's signature, good extension top and bottom, good soundstaging, mids a little recessed)
Orel 6N1P (More bass warmth, laid back treble and good liquidity, tubey sounding, would compliment cold clinical and fast headphones)
Osram L63 (need 2 of these + adaptor)
Russian version of 6C5GT (6S5S?) again need 2x with adaptor.


Feel free to PM me recommendations to add to this list.


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## Motocrossman24

May be worth having a conversation with Andy at http://vintagetubeservices.com/selecting-your-tube-is-an-art/

He has quite an inventory of 6sn7 tubes and takes great care to only sell legit and quality tubes...I personally bought a pair of sylvanias from the 60s on eBay to test out. Along with the stock Tung Sol and lisst to try for now...still waiting on my unit, purchased yesterday and didn’t ship today, prob won’t have it till atleast next week at this point. The 6sn7 seems to be quite a loved tube class with a lot of selection within it...so I wouldn’t worry too much about options. I have no experience with adaptors and tend to be of the mind set of “use what it was designed for” so I’ll be sticking with 6sn7 for the foreseeable future...also worth noting that psvane makes high end new production 6n8s tubes, but they cost a fortune.


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## attmci (Apr 3, 2018)

Motocrossman24 said:


> May be worth having a conversation with Andy at http://vintagetubeservices.com/selecting-your-tube-is-an-art/
> 
> He has quite an inventory of 6sn7 tubes and takes great care to only sell legit and quality tubes...I personally bought a pair of sylvanias from the 60s on eBay to test out. Along with the stock Tung Sol and lisst to try for now...still waiting on my unit, purchased yesterday and didn’t ship today, prob won’t have it till atleast next week at this point. The 6sn7 seems to be quite a loved tube class with a lot of selection within it...so I wouldn’t worry too much about options. I have no experience with adaptors and tend to be of the mind set of “use what it was designed for” so I’ll be sticking with 6sn7 for the foreseeable future...also worth noting that psvane makes high end new production 6n8s tubes, but they cost a fortune.



The price is very high. You can do many of the things, i.e. tube cleaning, by yourself.


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## Motocrossman24

attmci said:


> The price is very high. You can to many of the things, i.e. tube cleaning, by yourself.



The price is better then 99% of the dealers selling the same tubes elsewhere. And 3/4 of them don’t match them correctly or have nearly as good of testing equipment. You don’t have to buy the most expensive tube he offers, he’s got rca’s from the 50s for like 30-40$ where you’ll pay 70 at somewhere like tube world for something from the 70-80’s


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## Wes S (Apr 6, 2018)

Currently rolling these three tubes in my Lyr 3 -

1.  *Ken-Rad VT231 6SN7GT* (black glass and clear glass, both with staggered plates)

2.  *RCA VT231 6SN7GT* (grey glass 1945, with side micas on top mica)

3.  *National Union 6SN7GT* (grey glass / military US NAVY 1940's)

I will report back, after everything is burned in and I have had some more time with each tube.  All I can say, at this time, is that I like all three tubes and they each have their strengths.  The Lyr 3 is really making my Sony MDR -Z7's sing!


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## Zachik

Wes S said:


> Currently rolling these three tubes in my Lyr 3 -
> 
> 1.  *Ken-Rad VT231 6SN7GT* (black glass and clear glass, both with staggered plates)
> 
> ...


VERY tempted to replace my Jot with Lyr3... Your last comment regarding Z7 (which I also own) makes me want the Lyr3 even more...


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## winders (Apr 5, 2018)

Here are the tubes I will be trying:



They are, from left to right:

1. A real 3 hole Sylvania "Bad Boy" tube from 1953
2. Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7W
3. RCA grey glass


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## eschell27

So far my favorite with HD650K and LCD2C is Sylvania 3 hole BB or Raytheon VT-231, and with my HE560 is kenrad VT-231 staggered plates or RCA VT-231 grey glass. 

Let me know how the Sylvania 6sn7w goes, i have yet to hear any of them!


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## winders

eschell27 said:


> So far my favorite with HD650K and LCD2C is Sylvania 3 hole BB or Raytheon VT-231, and with my HE560 is kenrad VT-231 staggered plates or RCA VT-231 grey glass.
> 
> Let me know how the Sylvania 6sn7w goes, i have yet to hear any of them!



Yes, I now kind of regret selling all the Raytheon VT-231 tubes I had. I still have four each of the Bad Boys and 6SN7W tubes so I would guess I am in good shape for a while.


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## eschell27

winders said:


> Yes, I now kind of regret selling all the Raytheon VT-231 tubes I had. I still have four each of the Bad Boys and 6SN7W tubes so I would guess I am in good shape for a while.



Yeah i wouldn't worry much about it...honestly in the lyr 3 with hd650 i prefer the Sylvania's to the Raytheon... they are great tubes but they mostly pull duty in the gain stage of freya powering jot and my nearfield monitors, that's where i find them to be best.


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## Motocrossman24

Just ordered a Sylvania bad boy, rca grey glass from the 50s and a Tung-Sol mouse ear tube to try when the lyr come in. Got my shipping notice yesterday so will most likely see the amp in the middle of next week.


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## Wildcatsare1

Here’s my current lineup, waiting for the arrival of my Lyr 3, Tube Slueths (as stated on the Lyr 3 Thread), please chime in on their sonic signatures.


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## quimbo

Received a 6SN7gt Ken-Rad Tube *Flat Black Plates*1950* yesterday and prefer it over the Tung-Sol 6SN7.   Music is being played while I work and I hope to hear more improvements tonight after 24 hours of use.


Ordered a USN CHS 6SN7wgta Sylvania Tube*3-Holes per Black Plate*Strong*Mil Spec*#2 this morning to explore next week.

2 months ago I started an obsession and have purchased 5 pairs of Vintage headphones.  That obsession is now replaced by looking for vintage tubes


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## Motocrossman24

Where are you guys buying your tubes from?


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## quimbo

I bought my 2 from here  http://stores.ebay.com/fng2u/  both were shipped within an hour of purchase


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## Wildcatsare1

My last two were from EBay, I don’t recall were the two Sylvania tubes were sourced.


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## Motocrossman24

I got two sylvanias on eBay, but the rest of my tubes came from Brent Jesse at audiotubes.com...eBay seems like a crap shoot.


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## Wes S

Ebay.  Tube world express.  Upscale Audio


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## Wes S (Apr 7, 2018)

Ebay - only sellers that offer returns, and have 100% feed back.  Also good, if they mention listening for noise and microphonics with headphones.  Also I try to only purchase tubes on ebay, if they list test results.  Following these guidelines, has brought me good success, purchasing tubes on Ebay.  Lastly, I love when they have good pics of the pins, and then a photo looking down at the top of the tube, to look for burn marks (used 6SN7 tube), if it has bottom getter.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## FLTWS

Sub'd


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## Motocrossman24

So far between the stock tunsol, mouse ear Tung Sol ,Sylvania bad boy and 50s rca the rca is my favorite tube. Granted, none of the tubes even have an hour of break in on them and the amps probably got about an hour on it...I just love the warmth of the rca. I have 2 other sylvania chrome domes to try and an rca grey glass, and sylvania 6sn7wgt that should be here this week at some point to try out. Probably going to stick with the rca for a little while to actually let the tube/amp break in a bit. All tubes sound great though, this is deff an amp you can stick just about anything in and enjoy. Also kinda impressive a 30$ rca tube out performs a 90$ bad boy atleast to my ears.


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## ProfFalkin

Motocrossman24 said:


> Also kinda impressive a 30$ rca tube out performs a 90$ bad boy atleast to my ears.



I'm not too surprised.   The bad boy, and other very expensive tubes like the KenRad Black Glass / Melz / RCA grey glass / etc. seem to have earned their reputation in OTL and output transformer coupled amps.   The Lyr 3 is an altogether different thing.   

For example, I think the KRBG sounds great in the IHA-1, but it rolls the treble off way too much on the L3 for some reason.   The new production TS 6sn7 you can get from Schiit sounds very good in the L3, but sounds etched and grainy, with a certain hollowness on the IHA-1.

This is fine.  If I'm doing to drop $$$ in tubes so I can experiment, I'd rather get 1 great tube, and 3 or 4 good tubes out of it -vs- 1 average sounding bad boy.


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## Wes S (Apr 12, 2018)

That is interesting with your KenRad.  I am getting too much top end, on a bunch of songs, with all 4 of mine. . .different strokes for different folks.  I say if you have the funds it is worth trying them all out.  The fact you only need 1 tube really cuts down on cost.  You can find used tubes, of all brands and give them a try.  Once you find the ones you like, then look for the premium NOS, and stock up.


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## ProfFalkin

Which 4?


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## Wes S

I would like to add, that I listen to a lot of electronic music.  Not any dance music, the chill stuff, like Max Cooper and Christian Loffler.  I also listen to a lot of James Blake.


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## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> Which 4?


The 4 Ken-Rad, tubes I own.


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## ProfFalkin

Wes S said:


> The 4 Ken-Rad, tubes I own.


My KenRad bottom getter tube is a little too bright for me.   I don't have my two KR tubes here or I would take pics.


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## Wes S (Apr 12, 2018)

Mine all have staggered plates.  I have 1 black glass, and the rest are clear.  All with bottom getters.  I do not hear a difference between the clear glass and black glass, with both having staggered plates (diagonal to the long edge of top mica, looking down from top) and bottom getters.


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## Wes S (Apr 12, 2018)

There is a later production clear glass KenRad, with parallel plates (parallel to the long edge of the top mica, looking down) and bottom getter, that is supposed to sound different, with poor bass and a bright top end.  I have not heard this KenRad and don't plan on it.


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## Motocrossman24

ProfFalkin said:


> My KenRad bottom getter tube is a little too bright for me.   I don't have my two KR tubes here or I would take pics.



Do I remember correctly that you said the Raytheon vt231 is your fav tube in this amp?


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## ProfFalkin

Motocrossman24 said:


> Do I remember correctly that you said the Raytheon vt231 is your fav tube in this amp?


It's a 6SN7GTB, actually.  Link.  Link 2.

The 50's Tung-Sol sitting next to the Westinghouse tube (first link) is turning out to be a great tube too.  Might be #2.  Might be #1.  I need to compare it directly to the Raytheon to finalize judgement.


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## Wes S (Apr 12, 2018)

RCA - 6SN7GT - (grey glass/side snubber micas) - VT-231 - 1940's


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## Motocrossman24

Thanks, I just ordered a Raytheon vt231, I’ll keep my eyes out for a gtb aswell. I was pretty impressed with the mouse ear tunsol aswell, similar sound to the stock Tung-Sol but a bit more fluid sounding, I found the stock Tung-Sol to sound a bit digital maybe slightly grainy in comparison.


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## ProfFalkin

Wes S said:


> RCA - 6SN7GT - (grey glass/side snubber micas) - VT-231 - 1940's


Image broken?


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## Wes S

Weird I can see it in both post on my end?  That was my first attempt at a pic. . .


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## Wes S




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## Wes S

Can anyone see the 2nd pic I just posted?


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## quimbo

No.  An icon of a broken document and the phrase [ IMG ] without the spaces between the brackets


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## Wes S

quimbo said:


> No.  An icon of a broken document and the phrase [ IMG ] without the spaces between the brackets


Darn!  Thanks for the responses!  I will try again.


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## Wes S

Well. . . I am not a picture guy, and I can't figure it out.  Sorry for no picture.


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## ProfFalkin (Apr 12, 2018)

Wes S said:


> Well. . . I am not a picture guy, and I can't figure it out.  Sorry for no picture.


Perhaps try uploading the picture directly into your post, then inserting a thumbnail?  

Anyway, no worries.


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## Wildcatsare1

ProfFalkin said:


> It's a 6SN7GTB, actually.  Link.  Link 2.
> 
> The 50's Tung-Sol sitting next to the Westinghouse tube (first link) is turning out to be a great tube too.  Might be #2.  Might be #1.  I need to compare it directly to the Raytheon to finalize judgement.



Do you have any experience with the CBS-Hytron 5692?


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## ProfFalkin

Wildcatsare1 said:


> Do you have any experience with the CBS-Hytron 5692?


Nope.   I had the RCA version for the IHA-1, but I didn't think it was that special for that amp.   No clue about it for the L3.


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## Wes S (Apr 13, 2018)

. . .


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## Motocrossman24

Wes S said:


> RCA VT-231



Holy amp stack and tube choices Batman...that grey glass does look nice in there


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## eagerears

This isn't really Lyr-specific, but I figure people here might know: I bought an old 6SN7/VT-231 made in 1945. It sounds really good in the Lyr, but occasionally, the left channel gets fairly quiet (doesn't cut out entirely) for a few seconds and then comes back. Is this a sign of age? I'm not hearing any buzzing or other noise from it. Anything that can be done about it?

(I'm pretty sure I've narrowed it down to the tube being at fault here, I haven't heard that with the other tubes in the same setup.)


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## Motocrossman24

Is this definately a sylvania 6sn7wgt? It was advertised as such, but all markings are worn off besides made in USA and “607” on the base which I’m assuming is a date code? It definately has the sylvania style plates.


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## Motocrossman24




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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## JohnBal

Motocrossman24 said:


> Is this definately a sylvania 6sn7wgt? It was advertised as such, but all markings are worn off besides made in USA and “607” on the base which I’m assuming is a date code? It definately has the sylvania style plates.


I would say it is. The etched markings look real enough and the numbers could be a date code indicating the seventh week of 1956. But I'm no expert...


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## quimbo

New to tubes, found this forum https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/


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## eagerears

bcowen said:


> "Old" as in having been used for a long time, or old just because of when it was manufactured?  Any idea (roughly) how many operating hours it has or how long it's been in use?  I've never personally experienced what you're describing, but it sounds like signs of failing emission -- the tube is just worn out.  One triode is still going, but the other is gasping its last breath.


Old as in "around for a long time" – it's not necessarily NOS, but looks unused and apparently tests very well. But either way, it's probably not the tube that's at fault, I've now heard the same thing happen with a different tube. So I'm wondering of the Lyr has an issue. Testing right now with the LISST, my suspicion is that one of the heaters is cutting out intermittently.


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## Motocrossman24

That sylvania wgt that I posted above is my new favorite tube in the lyr3. It has a midrange and treble that just sounds so alive in this amp.


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## Wildcatsare1

A brief update the Foton, 1962’s have nice tone, but are a bit forward and don’t extend as deep in the bass as either the Sylvanias, the ‘52, or the ‘48 VT-231, which remain my favorite tubes.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Wildcatsare1

bcowen said:


> Got any pics by chance?  Or have you posted some already?



I don’t yet, the 52 is a rebranded Sylvania, in Philco garb, I’ll post some latter today. 

I’m having surgery Friday morning, so I’ll be out of pocket for a bit, so I may not get the pics until next week.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## Wildcatsare1

bcowen said:


> Hope it's nothing serious?  I guess _any_ surgery is serious, but you know what I mean.



Thanks, part of the rebuilding of my legs, improved mobility I hope.


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## mourip

Has anyone tried a 7N7 with loctal adapter? I am using these in my MicroZotl v2 and they sound much better to me than the other 6SN7 variants that I have tried, including a number of those mentioned above. 

They are also inexpensive. The adapters are easily available on eBay.


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## Wildcatsare1

mourip said:


> Has anyone tried a 7N7 with loctal adapter? I am using these in my MicroZotl v2 and they sound much better to me than the other 6SN7 variants that I have tried, including a number of those mentioned above.
> 
> They are also inexpensive. The adapters are easily available on eBay.



I don’t recall any posts on the 7N7, would love to read about your experience!


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## mourip

The 7N7 is the precursor to the 6SN7 and is electrically equivalent although its maximum voltage limitation might be lower than some. It uses a loctal base so it needs an adapter which will mean that you need some headroom. It looks like the Lyr has a nice opening that should accommodate it. I have seen the 7N7 mentioned in other threads here. 

I use it's 12v version(14N7) in my Linear Tube Audio MicroZotl v2 and once I wake up more I will post the other 6SN7 versions that I preferred it over. I also use it in my aging Single Power Extreme which is currently mostly desk art 

The most you will pay will probably be $20. 

(Be sure not to get the 7F7 as that is a 6SL7 and has a LOT more gain...)

Let us know if you try it out!


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## chef8489

Has anyone tried the modern coke bottle 6sn7 or 6ln7 tube?


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## Motocrossman24

chef8489 said:


> Has anyone tried the modern coke bottle 6sn7 or 6ln7 tube?



I haven’t heard anything about them in the lyr but saw some reviews when used with the Freya and most were underwhelming...imo, if your gunna spend 80-100$ on a tube, buy yourself one of the recommended vintage nos tubes...but don’t buy anything till you hear them amp as it comes...while I did tweak the sound sig to my preferences with some nos tubes...if I had heard the amp before I bought tubes I’d be about 400$ richer at the moment...it sounds amazing out of the box.


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## chef8489

I have 4 nos octal tubes from my vali 2 i can play with plus the two that will come with the Lyr 3. If i really feel like it i can get a 6f8g adapter.


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## mourip (May 3, 2018)

If you get a 6f8g adapter try to get one with a shielded cap wire. When I used to use a 6f8g and adapter with my SinglePower Extreme it was very susceptible to picking up noise from my desk lamp.

YMMV.


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## Wes S

I am going to make a prediction based on my findings with my Lyr 3. . .KenRad VT-231 (staggered plates) is going to be the favorite tube of many.  This tube does so many things right.  The impact of the bass is the first thing of note, and will be the tube for the bassheads (me included).  Next is the midrange, that is smooth without being to far back.  The top end is extended with just a touch of air.  This tube is slightly dark, but still has really good detail and is very euphonic.   You can feel the music, and it is very engaging and fun.  The soundstage is wide, and the overall imaging and impact is big and powerful, like live music.  This is a fun tube and I think it will work well with a bunch of different headphones.  My number 2 is the RCA VT-231 (grey glass, mica snubbers, 1940's).  This tube has more mid bass, than the KenRad, and almost hits as hard as the KenRad.  The midrange on the RCA, is a little further back, than the KenRad, and this really creates a deep, wide holographic soundstage.  This tube is warm and smooth, with great impact and weight to the notes.  I love a warm signature and this tube is king!  The top end of the RCA, is a bit rolled off, and it does not have the air of the KenRad, but it could be the tube for a headphone with a hot top end.  These 2 tubes are it for me, and I am buildling up my stock, so I don't have to worry about finding them, in the future. Happy listening!


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## MattTCG

KenRad VT-231 is my favorite. It just does so many things right.


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## Zachik

Wes S said:


> I am going to make a prediction based on my findings with my Lyr 3. . .KenRad VT-231 (staggered plates) is going to be the favorite tube of many.  This tube does so many things right.  The impact of the bass is the first thing of note, and will be the tube for the bassheads (me included).  Next is the midrange, that is smooth without being to far back.  The top end is extended with just a touch of air.  This tube is slightly dark, but still has really good detail and is very euphonic.   You can feel the music, and it is very engaging and fun.  The soundstage is wide, and the overall imaging and impact is big and powerful, like live music.  This is a fun tube and I think it will work well with a bunch of different headphones.  My number 2 is the RCA VT-231 (grey glass, mica snubbers, 1940's).  This tube has more mid bass, than the KenRad, and almost hits as hard as the KenRad.  The midrange on the RCA, is a little further back, than the KenRad, and this really creates a deep, wide holographic soundstage.  This tube is warm and smooth, with great impact and weight to the notes.  I love a warm signature and this tube is king!  The top end of the RCA, is a bit rolled off, and it does not have the air of the KenRad, but it could be the tube for a headphone with a hot top end.  These 2 tubes are it for me, and I am buildling up my stock, so I don't have to worry about finding them, in the future. Happy listening!





MattTCG said:


> KenRad VT-231 is my favorite. It just does so many things right.


My Lyr3 with stock Tung Sol tube is arriving tomorrow!!
I am wondering whether the upgrade to KenRad VT-231 is worth it?
I understand you guys love it, but *how much of a difference is it compared to the TS that comes with Lyr3*?
I never bought tubes (Lyr3 gonna be my 2nd hybrid. I got the Massdrop CTH) and I understand that reputable sources are (for KenRad VT-231) expensive! 
People keep saying the stock TS is awesome... 

Just thinking out loud here. Hoping to have some thoughts on that highly praised KenRad VT-231 vs. stock TS...


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## ProfFalkin

mourip said:


> The 7N7 is the precursor to the 6SN7 and is electrically equivalent although its maximum voltage limitation might be lower than some. It uses a loctal base so it needs an adapter which will mean that you need some headroom. It looks like the Lyr has a nice opening that should accommodate it. I have seen the 7N7 mentioned in other threads here.
> 
> I use it's 12v version(14N7) in my Linear Tube Audio MicroZotl v2 and once I wake up more I will post the other 6SN7 versions that I preferred it over. I also use it in my aging Single Power Extreme which is currently mostly desk art
> 
> ...


After reading the story of a cheap ebay adaptor which had a solder bridge between pins 6 and 7, and which quickly and loudly caused the explosion of dude's headamp... I think I'll pass.    

(Unless I can find a reliably good adapter maker, that is.)


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## MattTCG

The stock TS is a very good tube. I would not order anything yet. Spend a month with the TS. See where you are. You may be over the moon with the stock tube. If you like the amp after a month or so, but it doesn't quite fit your preferences, THEN look to tweak the signature with a NOS tube of your choice. IMHO I'm getting approximately a 10-15% improvement with the KR over the TS. It wasn't cheap but it fit my preferences perfectly.


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## chef8489

Pretty excited for my Lyr 3 arriving tomorrow. Here are the tubes I have on hand that I used with the vali 2
1957 Sylvania 6sn7 GTB
1958 Foton 6n8s
1971 Refklektor 6n9s
1956 Raytheon 6sn7 GTB
Then I will have both tubes offered by Schiit. Anything else I should need?


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## ProfFalkin

chef8489 said:


> Pretty excited for my Lyr 3 arriving tomorrow. Here are the tubes I have on hand that I used with the vali 2
> 1957 Sylvania 6sn7 GTB
> 1958 Foton 6n8s
> 1971 Refklektor 6n9s
> ...


Westinghouse 6SN7GTA black plates with top horseshoe getter.


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## mourip (May 3, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> After reading the story of a cheap ebay adaptor which had a solder bridge between pins 6 and 7, and which quickly and loudly caused the explosion of dude's headamp... I think I'll pass.
> 
> (Unless I can find a reliably good adapter maker, that is.)



Try this seller on eBay. I have purchased 3 from him and a friend bought two. No issues at all.


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## Wes S (May 4, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Westinghouse 6SN7GTA black plates with top horseshoe getter.


chef8489 - If you get the tube ProfFalkin suggested and the 2 I suggest below, with all the tubes you already have and you will be set for any kind of signature you want.  I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

KenRad - Stagggered Plates
RCA - Grey Glass - 1940's, mica side snubbers


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## chef8489

Wes S said:


> chef8489 - If you get the tube ProfFalkin suggested and the 2 I suggest below, with all the tubes you already have and you will be set for any kind of signature you want.  I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
> 
> KenRad - Stagggered Plates
> RCA - Grey Glass - 1940's, mica side snubbers


Now i just need to find them.


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## Wes S

chef8489 said:


> Now i just need to find them.


Brent Jesse or Vintage Tube Service (Andy), are the first 2 places I would look.  Both of these guys, sell quality tubes, that you know are legit.  I have bought half of my tubes from them, and the other half on ebay.   If I could do it all over again, I would only buy, from Brent or Andy.


----------



## mourip

Wes S said:


> Brent Jesse or Vintage Tube Service (Andy), are the first 2 places I would look.  Both of these guys, sell quality tubes, that you know are legit.  I have bought half of my tubes from them, and the other half on ebay.   If I could do it all over again, I would only buy, from Brent or Andy.



 +1 for Brent Jesse.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

chef8489 said:


> Now i just need to find them.



I believe Brent Jesse has the Sylvania “Bad Boys” in stock, since they were rebranded to Philco, the price is tolerable.


----------



## DarktoreS

I just ordered a Lyr 3 with MB Dac, I was wondering if a Psvane CV181-T-MII tube or a Psvane UK-6SN7 would be a good choice? First of all I will already test the Tung Sol that I took at the same time as the Lyr 3, but we all know how it goes a tube amp is made to test altenatives if possible at moderate price...


----------



## ProfFalkin

DarktoreS said:


> I just ordered a Lyr 3 with MB Dac, I was wondering if a Psvane CV181-T-MII tube or a Psvane UK-6SN7 would be a good choice? First of all I will already test the Tung Sol that I took at the same time as the Lyr 3, but we all know how it goes a tube amp is made to test altenatives if possible at moderate price...


I've heard mixed things about them.  Reviews seem polar - they are either loved or hated.  That's with other amps though.  Regardless, I consider it a risky purchase considering the price, and as such have shied away from them.


----------



## Motocrossman24

Iv also heard mixed reviews on those Chinese tubes...for 80$ you could get an rca grey glass and a Raytheon VT231, both of which is expectnto hand it to the new Production Chinese tubes.


----------



## chef8489

Here are some shots of my tube glow with my 1958 Foton 6n8s


----------



## chef8489

Dang double post.


----------



## chef8489

Threw the Tung-Sol 6sn7gtb back in today and thought I would get some shots tonight with it.  Just remember these are just crappy phone pics.


----------



## chef8489

Here is the stock 6H8c tube. the glass is a bit loose, but Schiit said if if it goes out in 90 days they would replace it


----------



## mourip

chef8489 said:


> Here is the stock 6H8c tube. the glass is a bit loose, but Schiit said if if it goes out in 90 days they would replace it



A loose bottle is not necessarily a problem if the tube works otherwise. Just be careful when you pull it out. If possible it is probably best to remove the top first and then grab the tube by the base, not the glass.

Sorry if this was already obvious to you!


----------



## Wes S

mourip said:


> A loose bottle is not necessarily a problem if the tube works otherwise. Just be careful when you pull it out. If possible it is probably best to remove the top first and then grab the tube by the base, not the glass.
> 
> Sorry if this was already obvious to you!


It is impossible to grab the base, before the tube comes out of the socket.  I have tried, and by the time you get the base above the opening to grab, the tube is already out of the socket.  I could see loose bases, being a problem, if you plan on rolling a bunch.  I have a couple and I am concerned and will save these tubes for, when all my good ones have been used.  I also put super glue (zap a gap), on one of them, and it no longer is loose.  I don't know how long this will hold, but it is better than nothing.


----------



## cebuboy

Wes S said:


> It is impossible to grab the base, before the tube comes out of the socket.  I have tried, and by the time you get the base above the opening to grab, the tube is already out of the socket.  I could see loose bases, being a problem, if you plan on rolling a bunch.  I have a couple and I am concerned and will save these tubes for, when all my good ones have been used.  I also put super glue (zap a gap), on one of them, and it no longer is loose.  I don't know how long this will hold, but it is better than nothing.



Maybe a socket saver or extender can help?


----------



## Pappas3278

Wes S said:


> I am going to make a prediction based on my findings with my Lyr 3. . .KenRad VT-231 (staggered plates) is going to be the favorite tube of many.  This tube does so many things right.  The impact of the bass is the first thing of note, and will be the tube for the bassheads (me included).  Next is the midrange, that is smooth without being to far back.  The top end is extended with just a touch of air.  This tube is slightly dark, but still has really good detail and is very euphonic.   You can feel the music, and it is very engaging and fun.  The soundstage is wide, and the overall imaging and impact is big and powerful, like live music.  This is a fun tube and I think it will work well with a bunch of different headphones.  My number 2 is the RCA VT-231 (grey glass, mica snubbers, 1940's).  This tube has more mid bass, than the KenRad, and almost hits as hard as the KenRad.  The midrange on the RCA, is a little further back, than the KenRad, and this really creates a deep, wide holographic soundstage.  This tube is warm and smooth, with great impact and weight to the notes.  I love a warm signature and this tube is king!  The top end of the RCA, is a bit rolled off, and it does not have the air of the KenRad, but it could be the tube for a headphone with a hot top end.  These 2 tubes are it for me, and I am buildling up my stock, so I don't have to worry about finding them, in the future. Happy listening!


My tinnitus is getting slightly triggered with the New TS from Schiit.  I read what you said about the gray glass V-231 as being possibly good for headphones with a hot top end, which my LCD3s aren't.  

However, I am looking for something that will be a little quieter on-top compared to that particular TS.  Think that grey-glass might do the trick?


----------



## chef8489

Pappas3278 said:


> My tinnitus is getting slightly triggered with the New TS from Schiit.  I read what you said about the gray glass V-231 as being possibly good for headphones with a hot top end, which my LCD3s aren't.
> 
> However, I am looking for something that will be a little quieter on-top compared to that particular TS.  Think that grey-glass might do the trick?


The Foton would, i have not tried the grey glass or clear glass ken rad staggered plates but would like to and would like opinions.


----------



## Wes S (May 10, 2018)

chef8489 said:


> The Foton would, i have not tried the grey glass or clear glass ken rad staggered plates but would like to and would like opinions.


The KenRad, can get a little hot too.  The RCA grey glass is a safe bet.  I have been listening to my Lyr 3, so much, and so loud, that I started getting some mild tinnitus myself.  I have to really watch the volume control, and I had to take a couple days off, from listening, to let my ears rest.  The tinnitus is gone and I am gonna be back at it tonight.

Just a little note - The KenRad is not a bright tube, but I just listened way to loud.


----------



## chef8489

Wes S said:


> The KenRad, can get a little hot too.  The RCA grey glass is a safe bet.  I have been listening to my Lyr 3, so much that I started getting some mild tinnitus myself.  I have to really watch the volume control, and I had to take a couple days off, from listening, to let my ears rest.  The tinnitus is gone and I am gonna be back at it tonight.


Hmm the Ken rad is boasted as a real bass lovers tube. Supposed to really bring out the lower end.


----------



## FLTWS

Better sounding equipment always tempts me to listen louder than I normally would or should to get even more of that goodness down my ear canal. I find it's easy to listen to my car radio or car CD player at low volume so I don't notice the short comings.


----------



## Motocrossman24

chef8489 said:


> Hmm the Ken rad is boasted as a real bass lovers tube. Supposed to really bring out the lower end.



Just about every review Iv seen on the Ken-Rad have said it’s one of the brightest tubes around. I’d definately suggest the rca grey glass or any rca for that matter if you want to tone down a top end.


----------



## chef8489

Motocrossman24 said:


> Just about every review Iv seen on the Ken-Rad have said it’s one of the brightest tubes around. I’d definately suggest the rca grey glass or any rca for that matter if you want to tone down a top end.


Ok thanks. I was going off the description off vintage tubes services for kenrad 1940s ken rad 6sn7gt with staggerd plates "Ken-Rad (Pre-GE) has a great crisp clean and yet deep sound. Fast as real music and the bass is the biggest & 
cleanest & most well defined of anything.
Definately the tube for bass lovers!"


----------



## Wes S

Yes, the kenrad has the best bass, but unlike some other strong bass tubes, it does not sacrifice the mids or top end.


----------



## Wes S

I absolutely love the kenrad, but I rolled the RCA grey glass back in, for extended listening sessions.


----------



## chef8489

Wes S said:


> Yes, the kenrad has the best bass, but unlike some other strong bass tubes, it does not sacrifice the mids or top end.


Thanks. Like i said just going off description its hard to tell. Eventually i wqnt to try them qnd qdd the three i dont have to my tube inventory. Mqybe once i sell my mimby and vali 2 with all my tubes.


----------



## Wes S

FLTWS said:


> Better sounding equipment always tempts me to listen louder than I normally would or should to get even more of that goodness down my ear canal. I find it's easy to listen to my car radio or car CD player at low volume so I don't notice the short comings.


I do the exact same thing with my Lyr 3 and my car stereo.


----------



## Pappas3278

I'm new to this tube type and with so many different identifiers...it's GD confusing! 

*6SN7GT RCA blackplate, GREYGLASS, short glass envelope*. - Is this the equivalent (or near equivalent) to the VT231 RCA Grey glass?


----------



## Motocrossman24

From what I have read all grey glass rca were the same as their vt231 counterparts...but there are atleast 2 versions of the grey glass...the earlier has little clear flange supports Off the top mica and the later version has non...the later version was flat in comparison to my ears. I much preferred the version with the supports on the top mica.


----------



## Wes S

Pappas3278 said:


> I'm new to this tube type and with so many different identifiers...it's GD confusing!
> 
> *6SN7GT RCA blackplate, GREYGLASS, short glass envelope*. - Is this the equivalent (or near equivalent) to the VT231 RCA Grey glass?


It is hard to tell without seeing a picture.  There are 2 different RCA grey glass.  The earlier ones with the almost opaque grey coating, side mica snubbers are the best.


----------



## Wes S

Looks like motocrossman24 beat me to it.


----------



## Pappas3278

The tube purveyor that I bought from doesn't provide photos unfortunately.  So, bit of crapshoot.  30-day guarantee helps.


----------



## mourip

chef8489 said:


> Hmm the Ken rad is boasted as a real bass lovers tube. Supposed to really bring out the lower end.



That was true in my MicroZotl...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Odin412

bcowen said:


> My top pick for an extended treble that you can play at stupid-loud levels without fatigue is the ribbed plate Foton 6h8c (6n8s).  This has become my favorite in the Lyr.  It's a foot-tap inducing, goosebump creatin', air guitar demanding musical groove tube that has caused me a lot of lost sleep.  Be aware though that this tube is not a bass hammer.  While the bass is tuneful, dynamic, and in correct proportion to the rest of the frequency range, it doesn't slam and bam and rattle your inner ears like some other tubes can.  I can fix that with a quick twist on the Loki's left knob, but sans Loki, I would probably go with something else for Marilyn Manson and Linkin Park.
> 
> Due credit to @Phantaminum for turning me on to this particular version, and this Ebay seller:
> 
> ...



Interesting - thanks! I ordered one for my Saga - it's fun to play with new tubes.


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> My top pick for an extended treble that you can play at stupid-loud levels without fatigue is the ribbed plate Foton 6h8c (6n8s).  This has become my favorite in the Lyr.  It's a foot-tap inducing, goosebump creatin', air guitar demanding musical groove tube that has caused me a lot of lost sleep.  Be aware though that this tube is not a bass hammer.  While the bass is tuneful, dynamic, and in correct proportion to the rest of the frequency range, it doesn't slam and bam and rattle your inner ears like some other tubes can.  I can fix that with a quick twist on the Loki's left knob, but sans Loki, I would probably go with something else for Marilyn Manson and Linkin Park.
> 
> Due credit to @Phantaminum for turning me on to this particular version, and this Ebay seller:
> 
> ...


Is that the one i have?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Bought a pair of the '53 Foton Ribbed.

Finally getting my 230VAC EU Lyr on Wednesday.


Also got an adaptor for rolling ECC88 family, will see how the Voshkod 6N23P's sound, think i have a couple laying around in a drawer.


----------



## chef8489

Put in the 1957 Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome Dome. There is not a lot of tube glow.


----------



## rhern213

With the Ken-Rad, does anyone know if there's a difference with the JAN-CKR labeled tubes?


----------



## Wes S

rhern213 said:


> With the Ken-Rad, does anyone know if there's a difference with the JAN-CKR labeled tubes?


Not if they both have the staggered plates.


----------



## rhern213

Wes S said:


> Not if they both have the staggered plates.



Sorry by staggered do you mean different sized plates, or just offset/angled?

This is the tube I'm looking at which has off-angled plates:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-GT-JA...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


----------



## Wes S (May 14, 2018)

rhern213 said:


> Sorry by staggered do you mean different sized plates, or just offset/angled?
> 
> This is the tube I'm looking at which has off-angled plates:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-GT-JAN-VT231-CKR-1943-Ken-Rad-Radio-Vacuum-Tube-1-pc-Test-NEW/372291715918?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


Yep.  That is a good one, but the same tube in clear glass, can be found cheaper and is the same thing, if the plates are angled/staggered.


----------



## rhern213 (May 14, 2018)

Wes S said:


> Yep.  That is a good one, but the same tube in clear glass, can be found cheaper and is the same thing, if the plates are angled/staggered.



Ahh, cool, well that was the cheapest NOS one that came up on ebay. All the other cheaper ones seemed to be used stock. And the other non-JAN/CKR labeled tubes are like $200+ so I thought this may have been a good deal. I'll continue looking around then.

Thanks for the tip!


----------



## Pappas3278

Wes S said:


> Looks like motocrossman24 beat me to it.


Thanks Wes!  A grey-glass from '51 arrived yesterday and I couldn't be happier.  

Compared to the new TS that I've been using from day one, this RCA is just what I needed in order to turn that Lyr3 volume UP without breaking my ear drums.  Not only that, I'm just loving the new sonic presentation.

I thought I was gonna have to get rid of the Lyr3, but I'm happy to say, she's here to stay!


----------



## Wes S

Pappas3278 said:


> Thanks Wes!  A grey-glass from '51 arrived yesterday and I couldn't be happier.
> 
> Compared to the new TS that I've been using from day one, this RCA is just what I needed in order to turn that Lyr3 volume UP without breaking my ear drums.  Not only that, I'm just loving the new sonic presentation.
> 
> I thought I was gonna have to get rid of the Lyr3, but I'm happy to say, she's here to stay!


I am glad it worked out for you!  I rolled my RCA grey glass back in last weekend, and I am loving the warm, full, and dynamic sound so much, it is staying for the foreseeable future.


----------



## FLTWS

Wes S said:


> I am glad it worked out for you!  I rolled my RCA grey glass back in last weekend, and I am loving the warm, full, and dynamic sound so much, it is staying for the foreseeable future.



My RCA grey lass and RCA GTB black plate are en route to me, probably here Thursday. That will give me an even 11 versions to play around with, LOL!


----------



## ilikepooters (May 16, 2018)

Package arrived today  Yes 230VAC Lyr 3 turned up!!


Ripped the box open frantically and set it up, started with the RCA red base 5692, this tube and amp is nirvana with HE-500. If i knew what endgame was i think this would be it, and it's not even burned in yet 
I've got it with built in multibit DAC.

Soundstage is bigger than with the Maverick D1 DAC/AMP i was using before, this is also a warm tube, treble is lovely and smooth but also detailed and airy. Bass has real heft, mids seem a little thicker.
Excellent separation too of all instruments.


Love this tube / amp / headphone pairing (Trairing?)

Downside? Can't see any tube glow 



*EDIT* When bank manager allows, i'm gonna try and get hold of a fabled Swedish 33S30 tube.


----------



## ilikepooters

6N23P with adaptor sounds awesome too, this is a '78 Voskhod silver shield.

If you buy one of these adaptors from ebay  make sure to check it over with a multimeter before use to check for shorts and make sure it's wired up correctly.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## mourip

ilikepooters said:


> *EDIT* When bank manager allows, i'm gonna try and get hold of a fabled Swedish 33S30 tube.



If you act quickly you can get a pair on eBay right now for just $3000


----------



## Wes S

ilikepooters said:


> 6N23P with adaptor sounds awesome too, this is a '78 Voskhod silver shield.
> 
> If you buy one of these adaptors from ebay  make sure to check it over with a multimeter before use to check for shorts and make sure it's wired up correctly.


Awesome!  I have the adapter, but I have been to scared to try it.  I am glad it works!  I am anxious to try my tung sol and western electric 2c51's.


----------



## FLTWS (May 22, 2018)

My 6SN7 Zoo. All burned in and ready to roll. (I think I got them all designated correctly)



Stock New Tung-Sol / (74?) Sylvania Green Base (Print) / 60’s CBS Hytron 5692 / 60’s Russian 6H8C




Sylvania Jan VT231 6SN7GT / Sylvania 6SN7WGT / Tung-Sol Jan early 60’s




Raytheon 6SN7GT / Ken-Rad Jan VT231 6SN7GT / RCA 6SN7GTB 50’s / RCA 6SN7 Greyglass (48?)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

FLTWS said:


> My 6SN7 Zoo. All burned in and ready to roll. (I think I got them all designated correctly)
> 
> Stock New Tung-Sol / (74?) Sylvania Green Base (Print) / 60’s CBS Hytron 5692 / 60’s Russian 6H8C
> 
> ...


That is quite the collection and it looks like you got all the greats.  The only 1 left to get, and my personal favorite right now, the early 40's RCA grey glass.  The RCA grey glass in your pic, is the latter version, that does not quite have the magic of the earlier version, but still has some warmth and is a good tube.  I have one of the latter versions, as well.  I really look forward to hearing your impressions of all those tubes!


----------



## FLTWS (May 18, 2018)

Wes S said:


> That is quite the collection and it looks like you got all the greats.  The only 1 left to get, and my personal favorite right now, the early 40's RCA grey glass.  The RCA grey glass in your pic, is the latter version, that does not quite have the magic of the earlier version, but still has some warmth and is a good tube.  I have one of the latter versions, as well.  I really look forward to hearing your impressions of all those tubes!



I'm going to take a guess that the early 40's RCA grey glass is highest priced and hardest to find?

It would be fun to have a second LYR 3 so the A/B's could be run simultaneously by just moving the HP cable connector.


----------



## Wes S (May 18, 2018)

FLTWS said:


> I'm going to take a guess that the early 40's RCA grey glass is highest priced and hardest to find?
> 
> It would be fun to have a second LYR 3 so the A/B's could be run simultaneously by just moving the HP cable connector.


Actually the grey glass 40's, can be found under $50 for used but still good, and around $90 for a new one.  The RCA grey glass 40's go for the same as the kenrad vt231's.  I have found several under $50 and here is one I just bought - https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-6SN7-GT-...V2E/192541463413?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

I am really interested in how that CBS 5692 sounds.  I am assuming you bought that from Upscale?


----------



## FLTWS

Wes S said:


> Actually the grey glass 40's, can be found under $50 for used but still good, and around $90 for a new one.  The RCA grey glass 40's go for the same as the kenrad vt231's.  I have found several under $50 and here is one I just bought - https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-6SN7-GT-...V2E/192541463413?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144
> _*I'll have to shop around at some point.*_
> 
> I am really interested in how that CBS 5692 sounds.  I am assuming you bought that from Upscale?*
> Yes.*


----------



## Rhamnetin

I was very disappointed in the GE 6SN7GTB (NOS 1965). Sounds worse than the stock Tung-Sol and LISST. The Raytheon 6SN7GT (VT-231) however is amazing... really improved bass performance with my ZMF Blackwood and opened up the sound stage a bit. Superb pairing. I'll be comparing this to a NOS National Union 6SN7GT Black Glass (early 50s), NOS Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7WGT (50s), RCA 6SN7GTB Black Ladder Plate (1961), and a NOS Sylvania Zenith 6SN7GTB (chrome top, not sure when they were made but I don't think this will compete with the others).


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Is it worth having tubes Cryo'd when buying from Upscale?


----------



## ProfFalkin

ilikepooters said:


> Is it worth having tubes Cryo'd when buying from Upscale?


No.


----------



## ilikepooters

Dammit they don't ship to UK.

Anyone US based fancy buying a 5692 Hytron from Upscale and then selling it to me in the UK? 

Apologies mods if this isn't allowed here.


----------



## ProfFalkin

ilikepooters said:


> Dammit they don't ship to UK.
> 
> Anyone US based fancy buying a 5692 Hytron from Upscale and then selling it to me in the UK?
> 
> Apologies mods if this isn't allowed here.


http://www.skybox.net


----------



## ilikepooters

ProfFalkin said:


> http://www.skybox.net


Read Upscale's FAQ and they don't ship to freight forwarding companies so no idea if i can get away with using skybox.


----------



## Zer0.p0int.Zer0

I’d like to try out some of these tubes being discussed. 

Looked at Upscale, any other reputable vendors I should check out? eBay seems like a crapshoot.


----------



## Motocrossman24

Zer0.p0int.Zer0 said:


> I’d like to try out some of these tubes being discussed.
> 
> Looked at Upscale, any other reputable vendors I should check out? eBay seems like a crapshoot.



Brent Jesse at audiotubes.com is the best.


----------



## Rhamnetin

Zer0.p0int.Zer0 said:


> I’d like to try out some of these tubes being discussed.
> 
> Looked at Upscale, any other reputable vendors I should check out? eBay seems like a crapshoot.



thetubestore


----------



## Zer0.p0int.Zer0

Thanks guys, appreciate it. I’ll check those out. Time to get the wallet out $$$


----------



## ilikepooters

Going to try a 6F8G with an adaptor.







It's identical to a 6SN7 but one of the grids is connected to the top instead of the bottom. The spare pin at the bottom is then used as a shield.

Snagged a Raytheon: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6F8G-Ray...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I'll have to wait a while for the adaptor to turn up though.


----------



## ilikepooters

OK 

i've had a delivery today and found a tube that for £3.99 for a matched pair outperforms the £150 i paid for an RCA red base 5692. These same tubes i tried in first gen Lyr and sounded like garbage.....


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lot-of-2...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


'67 6N1P-EV made in the Novosibirsk factory.


I tried all the brands of 6N1P in Lyr 1 and none of them sounded great, worst of which were the Novosibirsk tubes, don't know what years i tried though.
I'm guessing the plate voltage and grid bias are more friendly in the Lyr 3 to the 6N1P family than was in Lyr 1.


Presentation is silky smooth, no harshness to be found, bass is tight and impactful and soundstage seems far more pleasing, more holographic, detail and separation are nice too. Mids are warm without being forward or recessed.


It really is worth rolling tube you used in Lyr 1+2 judging by what i've tried so far, really some bargains to be had.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Wes S said:


> The KenRad, can get a little hot too.  The RCA grey glass is a safe bet.  I have been listening to my Lyr 3, so much, and so loud, that I started getting some mild tinnitus myself.  I have to really watch the volume control, and I had to take a couple days off, from listening, to let my ears rest.  The tinnitus is gone and I am gonna be back at it tonight.
> 
> Just a little note - The KenRad is not a bright tube, but I just listened way to loud.



Just fyi tinnitus doesn't go away it just stops ringing sometimes, but it can come back randomly even if you listen to no music ever again, you probably have it for life and will notice it one random night for now right before sleeping a slight ringing.

I currently have the LYR 3 AND RAYTHEON navy bad boy tube 195x something year.  its about 5x better than the tung-sol... Sirens of the Sea by Ocean Labs is a test song for female vocals for me. tung-sol and LISST make this song sound lifeless.  Raytheon gives it sweetness to her voice, better soundstage, and overall much better energy.

if anyone knows of a tube that has more energy, sweeter female vocals, than the Raytheon let me know please. cause i am still within refund period, and would like the best single tube i can get for this amp. ken-rad prob won't work for me since its less energetic than the raytheon, and i prefer raytheons style... sounds like i might already have my end game tube for this amp though. 


let me know folks, cheers!


----------



## Wes S (May 25, 2018)

caenlenfromOCN said:


> Just fyi tinnitus doesn't go away it just stops ringing sometimes, but it can come back randomly even if you listen to no music ever again, you probably have it for life and will notice it one random night for now right before sleeping a slight ringing.
> 
> I currently have the LYR 3 AND RAYTHEON navy bad boy tube 195x something year.  its about 5x better than the tung-sol... Sirens of the Sea by Ocean Labs is a test song for female vocals for me. tung-sol and LISST make this song sound lifeless.  Raytheon gives it sweetness to her voice, better soundstage, and overall much better energy.
> 
> ...


Just fyi, there is no such thing as a navy/ vt231 "bad boy". I have heard lots of good stuff about the Raytheons and will have to get a few soon.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN (May 25, 2018)

Wes S said:


> Just fyi, there is no such thing as a navy/ vt231 "bad boy". I have heard lots of good stuff about the Raytheons and will have to get a few soon.



Cool, well it sounds good that is all I know and that was what it was called in the listing when I bought it.

Can anyone answer my question? (two posts up)


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 6, 2018)

Well now, this is getting interesting and fun. When I first got my LYR3 I did some casual listening with the stock Tung-Sol and it sounded very different from my 6DJ8 and 12AU7 based headphone amps and I was very impressed. But I spent most of the time since acquiring the LYR3 to burn in my 6SN7 purchases before starting my more formal tube listening comparisons in earnest last weekend.

With the exception of my 2 RCA's, the tubes designated as "military grade" types are outperforming the "consumer” use ones, to my ears. The RCA's have a uniqueness in sound character I haven't heard completely duplicated by any others but that sound may not be to everyone's personal liking.

I don't really understand why these various 6SN7's should sound different (but that also goes for my other tube types as well but something I've been aware of since the 70's). While the plate shapes and positioning and overall tube sizes and positioning of the various parts will vary from one tube to the next, they all have the same general internal structure in order to conduct electrons in a vacuum, I think. So it's a mystery to me.

Here's where I'm at presently. It’s going to take at least 2 rounds of listening sessions with each tube which will take more than a few weeks. I can’t grind on focused listening 8 hours a day, day after day, and with summer comes travel, and other diversions...

5/25:This is the start of round 1.
6/5: Finished round 2 
7/6: Additions: WH's




Spoiler: Click On



*My Listening Impression & Comparisons of 6SN7 Type Tubes
(hopefully no cut and paste snafu's)

I spent 3 weeks listening to the stock Tung-Sol for a few hours on several occasions while using most of the time to burn in my collection of recently acquired 6SN7’s, my first exposure to this tube type. Burn-in consisted of 24 hours for each tube, including the stock tube. Each tube got 24 hours of continuous exercise using my PAD “Luminist System Enhancer” which, according to the included notes, reduces break-in to just 5 hours from 24. If that’s the case 24 hours of play on “repeat” should equal 100+ hours of burn-in. Whatever!

On days I plan to listen I fire up the LYR 3  when I get out of bed and run that “Enhancer” disc on repeat until I get to the listening session itself which could be morning, afternoon or evening, or two out of three, or all three on a day when I’m really motivated. I take notes as they come to mind using pre-printed sheets as formatted below.

The chain of gear included my ERC-3’s AES/EBU output over Straight Wire Balanced Info Link 75 ohm digital cable to Yggdrasil (A) to the LYR 3. IC’s were Dana Cable Reference to the LYR 3 and Dana Cable Ultra HP cable to my Abyss Phi. I used this same equipment for all comparisons. I don’t doubt that some tube’s sound may make a  better match with my other phones and different boxes and wires, but changing transducers and other components only confuses sonic impressions and especially at the transducer end as phones are rarely close in sound presentation.

I also measured volume levels with a meter to insure that they were always the same. (A better way would be to have two LYR3’s driven simultaneously from the two pair of RCA outs on my Yggy to avoid the delay in cool down and warm up related issues, just move the headphone SE connector from one to the other).

I tend to use the same handful of demo CD’s (mostly classical and Jazz) over and over as I know them like the back of my hand and since the 70’s in some cases.

The differences I mention are usually smaller than the words available to describe them but still some struck me as quite dramatic. I don’t have a 2 channel system to confirm what I hear through the headphones, especially when it comes to imaging and sound stage. My experience with headphones is they are significantly poorer at presenting spatial information compared to speakers, and neither really comes close to delivering a concert hall experience. 

The conclusions I draw are for me, my purpose in doing this survey was not primarily to conclude good/bad or yes/no or for/against, but rather to give my impressions of what I heard and hear which tubes gave me a sound presentation that would make me want to listen to my music. My thoughts are just one of many others out there and should not be considered authoritative or recommending, and are just my input on a voluminously posted about topic. 

There is also the possibility that the different sound qualities of the different tubes may differently favor my other phones more, or less. For this survey I’m sticking exclusively to my Abyss Phi, it can get too confusing jumping from different sounding phones with different presentations. The Phi is the most neutral sounding headphone to my ears of those I own, neither bright nor dark, neither forward or recessed, dynamically relaxed, just so listenable all around with no quirks from the top to bottom of the frequency range.  

 I sometimes wonder if there are sound differences in a batch of identically manufactured tubes of the same brand – but I’m not going there, enough is enough, LOL!

The naming and descriptions come from the seller’s information.

I did a second run through of comparisons after another 24 hours of burn-in using my above procedure. I also double check volume levels with my sound level meter to insure a close match before each listening comparison.

RCA 1952 6SN7GT, Grey Glass, Black Plate (Flat, Staggered), Short Bottle (Brent Jesse $49.00)

Bass: Full, impactful, warm

Mids: Rich, warm, transparency is good

Highs: Soft, smooth, never harsh, maybe lacking a little sparkle when called for

Transients: Good, but not ultra-detailed

Air: Plenty, up and down the frequency range

Detail: The warmth and airiness may contribute to a very slight obscuring of very fine detail

Dynamics: Excellent, never gets congested, handles ffff with aplomb

Image: Stable and uniform

Soundstage: The most recessed tube of all I have.

Top to Bottom Balance: Weighted towards the bottom of the spectrum, sumptuous string tone, the horns maybe not quite as brassy or bright as they should/could be

Long Term Listenability: All day, if you like a softer, rounded, warmer sound.

Second run through; my thoughts are unchanged.
**********************************************************************************************************************
(Up next, the RCA Clear Glass from the early 50’s. I expected it was going to be tough call finding differences. Couldn’t have been more wrong.)

RCA early 1950’s (56-52 date code?) 6SN7GT, Clear Glass, Black Plate (Flat, Staggered), Medium Bottle (Brent Jesse $35.00 - At this price, I feel it’s a steal!)

Bass: Full and just as deep ranging as the 52’Grey Glass not as warm or airy but maybe just right for me

Mids: Clear and present, grouped voices nicely individualized if the recording captures it, more transparent than the 52’ Grey Glass

Highs: More extended than the 52’ Grey Glass

Transients: Sharper, quicker, better articulation than the 52’ Grey Glass

Air: Not as much as the 52’ Grey Glass, but not dry, maybe just right for me

Detail: Inner detailing and overall clarity much more to my liking than the 52’ Grey Glass

Dynamics: On a par with the 52’ Grey Glass, maybe a hair less

Image: Stable and uniform

Soundstage: Just as wide but depth of the sound stage is a small amount less

Top to Bottom Balance: Neutral, no excess emphasis on any portion of the frequency range

Long Term Listenability: Very Good to All Day. This tube balances a lot of the above parameters very well. I think it balances nicely between warm and dry sound presentations as well as forward or recessed.

Second run through; my thoughts are unchanged.
**************************************************************************************************************************
(At this point I wanted to return to the stock Tung-Sol and see what my thoughts are versus the 2 RCA’s after a warm up).  

Tung-Sol (the stock tube) New ($30.00)

Bass: As deep as the RCA’s, clean, and tight

Mids: Clear and present, but flat, not much body behind the sound of instruments and voices by comparison with the RCA’s

Highs: A touch hot, occasionally grainy/metallic but very slight and usually only on louder passages (smoothed out a bit between 75 -100 hours)

Transients: Quite good, quick on the attack and nicely controlled on decay

Air: Not much (a good bit below average)

Detail: Quite good

Dynamics: Quite good

Image: Stable

Soundstage: Very flat front to back. Side to side as wide as the RCA’s

Top to Bottom Balance: Mostly neutral but a little elevated in the highs, a very warm sound. Images and sound stage are flat, thin, little roundness or body behind the sound of voices, or instruments. Note that this is by comparison with the 2 RCA’s.

Long Term Listenability: Probably not all day. I found it to not be as involving to listen to after a while, not completely sure why (maybe listening fatigue).

In some aspects its sound is similar to the 50’s RCA Clear Glass but highs are not as sweet and a bit grainy/shout-y and a bit metallic at times depending on the recording (perhaps needs more burn-in than the NOS’s?). Very vivid, very forward with little front of stage to back of stage distancing and very little air by comparison with the RCA’s. The stock Tung-Sol is still a good sound out of the LYR 3. It’s just in comparison to the RCA’s (and perhaps others to come) that differences were obvious to my ears.

At the end of my survey I’ll give the stock Tung-Sol some significant burn-in hours to see if it makes a difference.

Did a third run through; the sound has improved and is more listenable, (but by comparison to other tubes) the sound stage still lacks depth and the perspective is still too close. If it feels like I can reach out my arms and touch the players it’s too dam close. As a consequence images are large and closer together L to R across the sound stage, what makes it work a bit is how clean the overall sound is from top to bottom.
************************************************************************************************************************
(Next obvious choice; I wanted to hear how the NOS JAN military Tung-Sol 6SN7 compared. Again, I didn’t expect a significant difference. Again, I was wrong!)

Tung-Sol 6SN7WGTB Early 60’s JAN, USA made Military Grade, Brown Base, Black Tri-Plates at Angles, Tall Bottle (Brent Jesse $60.00)

Bass: Fine, but maybe not as explosive or subjectively deep sounding as the stock tube

Mids: Nicely done, clear and present, back in the realm of the Clear Glass RCA

Highs: A lot smoother than the stock tube.

Transients: Good attack with a proper, airy decay, especially on cymbal, Tam-Tams, Bass Drum

Air: Much better than the stock tube, maybe not as much as RCA’s but fine enough

Detail: Good but different*

Dynamics: Good but different*

Image: Stable but different*

Soundstage: Much improved in the front to back parameter over the stock, nicely layered

Top to Bottom Balance: Fairly neutral but bass, subjectively, not as deep ranging or impactful as the stock tube.

Long Term Listenability: Very Good, maybe great!

*This tube was very surprising. The stock tube gave me an orchestra pit perspective (in my face); this NOS version pushed me farther out into the audience which I much prefer.  (The RCA’s were somewhere in between these two extremes). Sounds of the various instruments blended much better, just like in the concert hall. I double checked the volume level to make sure that was not causing what I was hearing with regard to listening position.

Images with the stock tube presented the various instrument groups in bold relief, almost like turning up the contrast or any edge enhancement controls on a TV. The NOS was beautifully blended, overlapping, with plenty of air, but still directional, closer to the concert hall experience.

Detail was over hyped at times with the stock tube, the NOS was not as dramatic, but more realistic if I’m a listener in the audience.

Dynamics were a bit more explosive on the stock tube; the NOS seemed just as wide ranging but again, from a perspective out in the audience which makes a difference.

The stock tube’s sound field was very flat front to back, the NOS nicely layered. I like this tube’s sound; it’s got some uniqueness to it like the RCA’s. But, I’ve got 7 more tubes to listen to yet.

The stock tubes sound might favor more popular genres of music?

Second run through; this still sounds so much better than the stock tube. While maybe not as refined in the highs like the Ken-Rad VT-231 and some of the others, or airy in the bass, all other aspects are within a hair, especially sound stage, not in my face, not too recessed. Tung-Sol; same tube, different countries of origin, different mfg. dates, surprising.
**************************************************************************************************************************
(Next up the Raytheon. I ended up a little disappointed with this one)

RAYTHEON 1940’s 6SN7GT (Identical to Raytheon VT-231), Clear Glass, Black Plate (Flat, Staggered), Medium Bottle, Flat Plate, (Brent Jesse $50.00)

Bass: Good, deep ranging, good impact, some air

Mids: Good voice individualization, nothing special otherwise

Highs: Nicely extended and controlled, very little harshness

Transients: Good to very good

Air: About average or slightly below

Detail: Okay, nothing special

Dynamics: Okay, nothing special

Image: Stable but close up

Soundstage: Just confusing, sometimes okay, sometimes not

Top to Bottom Balance: Neutral generally, maybe a little down on the very bottom, a little up on the highs

Long Term Listenability: Not sure.

It presents a clean sound with detail and dynamics, but the sound stage is not up to some others and again, one that’s not very involving.

Second run through; much better sounding after another 24 hours of burn-in. It has most of the best qualities of the Ken-Rad, but, the soundstage is still flat front to back and the sound is very “in my face” with a touch of brightness or a slight roughness at times. It’s a very exciting sound with plenty of punch and detail and may work better with Jazz or Rock but I still prefer the Ken-Rad, and many of the others, over it.
*************************************************************************************************************************
(Ken-Rad; this is a better sound to my ears than my Raytheon)

KEN-RAD 1940’s 6SN7GT VT-231, Black Glass, Black Plates (Flat Staggered), Bottom Getter, Medium Bottle, (Brent Jesse $95.00)

Bass: Very good, goes deep with authority and impact when called for

Mids: Very good, fully fleshed out

Highs: Extended and a little touch bright at times but they are pretty clean at higher volumes

Transients: Very good, great attack and decay characteristics

Air: The right amount

Detail: Very good

Dynamics: Close to the best I’ve heard

Image: Stable

Soundstage: The perspective is close in but its uniform from L to R and its front to back depth is middle of the range.

Top to Bottom Balance:  Excellent, a real strength, no frequency band(s) are emphasized so the details are exceptionally well balanced.

Long Term Listenability: Very good, the up close perspective may be a bit much at times but the balance is so good and the sound so clean I find I can listen at slightly lower volumes and not miss a thing, which helps mitigate that closeness of perspective. 

Second run through; the soundstage is much more relaxed with the right amount of distance from the players and better depth, this is an improvement. Overall, one of the better sounding for my listening tastes.
***********************************************************************************************************************
(Somehow I ended up with 3 different Sylvania’s !)

Sylvania 6SN7WGT/A 1940’s JAN, Military Grade, Clear Glass, Early Brown Base, Black Plate (Parallel “T’s”), Bottom Getter, Medium Bottle, (Brent Jesse $70.00)

Sylvania 6SN7GT 1940’s VT-231 JAN-CHS, Clear Glass, Black Base, Green Print, Black Plate (Parallel “T’s”), Bottom Getter, Tall Bottle, (Brent Jesse $90.00)

Sylvania 6SN7WGTA 1974 JAN, Clear Glass, Black Base, Green Print, Black Tri-Plates at Angles, Medium Bottle, (Upscale $140.00) 

In general these 3 tubes have very similar characteristics with some minor variations

Bass: Very good, goes deep with authority and impact when called for and with good control.

Mids: Crisp and clean, not to warm or cool, good on vocals

Highs: Clean and clear

Transients: Very good, quick on attack, controlled on decay, no blur

Air: Very slightly less on the 40’s issues than on the 74’

Detail: Very good, delineates instruments and voices very nicely

Dynamics: Good to very good

Image: Very stable, nicely balanced L to R on all 3

Soundstage: Middle of the road between up front and all the way back

Top to Bottom Balance: Excellent

Long Term Listenability: Very good, among my favorites.

Second run through; the 40’s issue Sylvania’s are a bit dryer with less air than the 74’, and a touch less oomph in the bass than the 74’. The 40’s issues sound a little bit quicker on the leading edge of transients but never etched. The 74’ by comparison may sound too smooth, but this smoothness applies up and down frequency range and I found it lends a sense of ease to the sound of instruments and voices blending them beautifully. Make no mistake these differences are very slight. I’m especially torn between the Black Base 40’ and 74’. Eventually I’ll get around to seeing how those two match up with my Utopia and HD800. I have my suspicions but I want to just focus on my Abyss Phi until I’m done sorting out all 11 tubes to my satisfaction.
************************************************************************************************************************
CBS Hytron 5692/6SN7GTB, Clear Glass, Brown Base, Black Plates (Flat, Parallel), Short Bottle, (Upscale $150.00)                    

Bass: Good and solid

Mids: Just slightly forward of neutral but smooth enough to be highly listenable.

Highs: A small amount more energy that some others, but less than borderline bright

Transients: Excellent attack and decay, really snaps when called for

Air: A bit less than the best

Detail: Thanks to transient capabilities very resolving

Dynamics: About average

Image: Stable, players are clearly outlined

Soundstage: Wide but not especially deep, a little less than middle of the range

Top to Bottom Balance: Fairly flat with just a hint of brightness

Long Term Listenability: Good, this tube may need more hours than some others, so…

Second run through; overall a great sounding tube. I note that this tube put out a few tenths of a db more at the same volume knob setting than others which were pretty consistent. I re-measured and adjusted accordingly. This is a transparent sound bordering on vivid (works well with my Phi).  Sound stage is very slightly forward and middle of the range in depth. Transients snap and demand attention but this tube keeps them just short of over etched. Among my favorites. 
*************************************************************************************************************************
Early Russian 6H8C 1960’s, Clear Glass, Black Base, Grey Plate (Parallel “T’s”), Tall Bottle, (Upscale $35.00) 

Bass: Really tight and powerful when called for

Mids: Nicely balanced between warm and dry

Highs: Nice but maybe just a bit of grit

Transients: Excellent attack and decay

Air: Solid middle of the range between warm and dry.

Detail: Very good

Dynamics: Not quite the equal of the best

Image: stable, wide, big, (as in close to the players)

Soundstage: Wide L to R, not as deep as some

Top to Bottom Balance: good

Long Term Listenability: I do like this tube with Jazz and Rock and this may be another tube that’s going to want more hours of use to reach its best sound.

Second run through; sound improves with additional burn-in. Still an up-front sound with average depth actually sounds similar to the CBS Hytron, just a little behind in each category.
**************************************************************************************************************************
One conclusion I’ve come to is that, in general, the JAN / VT-231 / Military Grade tube types were uniformly excellent overall. If they are spec’d tighter, or get a bit more care in fabrication and component materials, or are held to tighter tolerances on measurements for military use, I don’t know. All tubes (Except the 2 RCA's that were fine after the first burn-in session) improved as they got more burn-in time on them.

My favorites (in no particular order): the 52 and 56 RCA', the USA made early 60’s Tung-Sol, the 40’s Ken-Rad, the Sylvania 40’s VT-231 and 74’ WGTA JAN, and the CBS Hytron. The sound of all the others is still fine but a bit more forward than I prefer. There was no one tube I found unlistenable. 

Of note; The 52' Grey Glass is very, very different sound from all the other tubes and I can see how its soft, laid back characteristics may not appeal at all to some. This may work well with my classical music, especially some of the thinner, brighter 60's and 70's recordings from Columbia and DG.  But I prefer the middle of the range immediacy of some of the others with my Jazz and Rock.

7/6:
Reporting back on my WH "D" vs "Halo" vs Ken-Rad VT231.

I hear virtually no difference between the 2 WH's, both are great sounding with my classical and Jazz CD's.

If I had a second LYR3 I could run simultaneously off my Yggdrasil "A" I could do quicker A/B'ing, and "maybe", I could detect something but the difference would be no great shakes in the bigger picture. And, as I just ordered a new Yggdrasil "B" on which I plan to do some serious, simultaneous A/B'ing against my "A" unit during 1 to 2 months after delivery, I've got bigger fish to fry.

My Ken-Rad VT231 is another winner, more explosive dynamics than my WH's, with maybe more powerful deep bass, but at times a very slight amount more in the highs with certain recordings than I might like, but not bothersome to me. Those with younger ears most likely could very well hear the highs with a different take from my own.

When my 2 Foton's arrive I'll have 14 different 6SN7 types (don't know why I bought 2, doh!), 9 of them are outright excellent, unless I buy something requiring a pair of 6SN7's I'll probably sit tight. Among my favorites there is no clear winner in my book. A given tube with this HP amp, with these cables and with one of my top 3 phones, just might "click" better than another, but I feel no urgency at this point to wade though any more at this time. And most of these run so cool temp wise, I'll probably fail before they do.

For me, there is no one tube to rule them all.
*


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## ilikepooters

The closest western tube to the 6N1P is the 6BQ7A, might be worth rolling those with the adaptor if anyone has a stash, can get the Brimar version cheap over here


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## Dogmatrix

ilikepooters said:


> The closest western tube to the 6N1P is the 6BQ7A, might be worth rolling those with the adaptor if anyone has a stash, can get the Brimar version cheap over here


6n1p = 6dj8/6922


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## quimbo

I purchased a Lyr 3 just under 2 months ago, never had tubes,now have a nice assortment of tubes.  14 in total, 11 different varieties.  Time to stop searching and really start listening.  

Latest edition is a Hitachi 6SN7GTB 6SN7 ECC33.  This has black ladder plates and D getters in the tube base, made in the 1960's.  This sounds like it will be a fine sounding after some burn in.


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## FLTWS

The fun begins.


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## caenlenfromOCN

Does anyone agree with me that the tung-sol the Lyr 3 comes with sounds lifeless? I would like to try the stock Russian NOS the Lyr 3 comes with, does anyone want to trade my Tung-Sol for the stock Russian Lyr 3 tube?


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## skyline315

caenlenfromOCN said:


> Does anyone agree with me that the tung-sol the Lyr 3 comes with sounds lifeless? I would like to try the stock Russian NOS the Lyr 3 comes with, does anyone want to trade my Tung-Sol for the stock Russian Lyr 3 tube?


How much time have you put in on it?

My opinion of the tube changed pretty dramatically after putting some decent hours on it.  I was ready to toss it into the trash heap at first listen.

The stock Russian tube (in comparison) wins in clarity, but is very flat sounding and a bit lifeless in comparison to the TS.

Of course, preferences, the rest of your rig, etc. can change all of this.


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## Ripper2860 (May 26, 2018)

Received my 40's Ken-Rad VT-231 (Clear Glass / Staggered Plates).  After giving it a quick listen, seems a nicely balanced tube w/ no glaring issues -- just a nice blalanced sound over-all.  It's NOS so I'll let it burn-in over night before doing and critical listening.  Pretty excited about this tube, given the recommendations given for its use with Lyr 3.  I just hope my Hifiman HE400S cans can fully reveal the virtues of this tube!

Next up: Hytron 5692 Brown Base or RCA Red Base (ouch!!)

** Just went from Fleetwood Mac (Rumors) to Joey Alexander Eclipse (Jazz) with stand-up bass and excellent drum.  Wow!  I can say that even with virtually no burn-in, the bottom end is greatly improved over the provided Tung-Sol tube.  Looking VERY promising for the KR!!


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## cebuboy

After a long wait(230v got backlogged), finally got to try the Lyr 3, popped in a melz 6h8c and was surprised of the airyness, made the hd650 sound wide than what I’m used to. Will let this tube simmer for a while...


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## mourip

I have wanted to try one of those legendary Russian 6SN7 equivalents for quite a while. 

Can anyone suggest the best one and a reliable vendor that will send the real thing?


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## cebuboy

mourip said:


> I have wanted to try one of those legendary Russian 6SN7 equivalents for quite a while.
> 
> Can anyone suggest the best one and a reliable vendor that will send the real thing?



Well, the best from what I’ve read is the MELZ holed plates, but is expensive. I got a MELZ with ribbed plates, so far the sound is quite good and not as expensive as the holed plates version. Ordered 2, one is doa. Got it from a Ukrainian seller, so it is a risk.


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## jconde

Hello guys.  I am an ignoramous.  I just bought the Lyr 3 with the two stock tubes.  I want to try  vintage tube but i know nothing of years or ribbed plates.  Can you recommend me my first tube or two.  Should it be a Ken-Rad or and RCA?  please help me with specifics like years and rib plates etc.

Thank you all.  i hope I am not just entering a new addiction.


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## Ripper2860 (May 30, 2018)

Hello --

My most solid of recommendation would be a 1940's Ken-Rad staggered plates (plates are offset but parallel to each other).  That tube is one of the highest recommended tubes for the Lyr 3. The red bottom RCA has received mixed reviews on the Lyr 3 with certain Sylvanias and Raytheons faring better.  The one getting over-all great marks from everyone is the Ken-Rad.  There are a lot of recommended sellers, but I only have experience with SND Tube Sales at http://vacuumtubes.com.

Here is their 6SN7 tube page: http://www.vacuumtubes.com/6sn7.html

The Ken-Rad can be found near the bottom at the Misc. Tubes section.  BTW -- no difference between VT-231 and 6SN7GT.  Same tube, with VT-231 being the military part/catalog #.


Oh, and welcome to your new addiction!!


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## mourip (May 30, 2018)

cebuboy said:


> Well, the best from what I’ve read is the MELZ holed plates, but is expensive. I got a MELZ with ribbed plates, so far the sound is quite good and not as expensive as the holed plates version. Ordered 2, one is doa. Got it from a Ukrainian seller, so it is a risk.



Thanks. I always heard that the 5 hole version was really good but they are of course expensive. The best 6SN7 variant I have heard so far is the 7N7 with loctal to 8 pin adapter. They are still very cheap.


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## ilikepooters (May 30, 2018)

jconde said:


> Hello guys.  I am an ignoramous.  I just bought the Lyr 3 with the two stock tubes.  I want to try  vintage tube but i know nothing of years or ribbed plates.  Can you recommend me my first tube or two.  Should it be a Ken-Rad or and RCA?  please help me with specifics like years and rib plates etc.
> 
> Thank you all.  i hope I am not just entering a new addiction.



I've tried the stock tung sol and LISST and both are garbage to me.

I've also tried an RCA red base 5692 which does everything right except soundstage, it's fairly closed in.


Then i decided i'd try a completely different tube by way of an adaptor.


Currently listening to a 6N1P-EV NEVZ (Novosibirsk, Pentagon logo) and does everything right like the 5692 but with a lovely expansive sound stage. And it's not properly burned in yet.



Check with seller but this looks like NEVZ: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-X-6N1P-EV-matched/202320011630?hash=item2f1b36616e:g:zpcAAOSwDkVaRUSZ
And this is adaptor: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1x-ECC88...609570?hash=item43fe70bae2:g:dYYAAOxySoJTWRQ8

Good idea to have the adaptor checked over with a multimeter to make sure it's wired up correctly and no shorts.

That adaptor will also allow you to roll:

6DJ8 / 6922 / ECC88 / E88CC / 6N23P / 6BZ7 / 6BQ7A / ad nauseum

All of which are safe in Lyr, and many more will be compatible but check with Schiit to makre sure they're safe to use.


With the 6N1P having such great synergy i'd expect 6BZ7 and 6BQ7A might as well because of their similar characteristics.


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## cebuboy

ilikepooters said:


> I've tried the stock tung sol and LISST and both are garbage to me.
> 
> I've also tried an RCA red base 5692 which does everything right except soundstage, it's fairly closed in.
> 
> ...


The one in the link is a Voskhod 6N1P, quite common and cheap. Have a bunch of them for the Valhalla, sounds too dry. I’m still waiting for the adapter so I can try 6N3 series in the Lyr 3. They sound great in the Vali 2 and Valhalla.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## jconde

When I went on Mike Marx website to look for both the RCA grey glass and the Ken-Rad VT-231, it warned to be careful with these tubes if your amp setup is sensitive to microphonic tubes.  I assume from the reviews in this forum that microphonics are not a concern with the Lyr3.  Right?


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## mourip

jconde said:


> When I went on Mike Marx website to look for both the RCA grey glass and the Ken-Rad VT-231, it warned to be careful with these tubes if your amp setup is sensitive to microphonic tubes.  I assume from the reviews in this forum that microphonics are not a concern with the Lyr3.  Right?



I always thought that it was the other way around, that one's choice of tubes determined the microphonics. It is the tube that can be microphonic. Some are worse than others.


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## Ripper2860 (May 30, 2018)

The above poster (@mourip) is correct.  The tubes are what is potentially microphonic -- not the amp.

Microphonics are a potential problem with almost any really old tube (40's, etc) and even newer ones.  With a headphone amp, microphonics are typically a non-issue as you are listening with headphones.  Microphonics can be an issue when a tube amp or preamp is used with speakers as sound waves radiating from speakers can strike the tubes and cause the glass and internal components to resonate.  This causes the tube to electrically induce a sound of their own (typically a ringing).   I wouldn't worry about it with headphones as it likely will be a non-issue unless it's a REALLY, REALLY bad or defective tube.  The warning is usually given as a general disclaimer and is geared more towards use with speaker-based sound systems.

There are tubes specifically designed to reduce microphonics and have extra rods within the tube to better support elements (ex: 5692 tubes).  I've purchased several tubes where the reseller gave a warning about microphonics and have had no issues w/ my Lyr 3 -- even with powered desktop speakers.  If it is a concern, one can also use tube dampers to combat resonance, but you'll likely get arguments for and against their benefit.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Westinghouse 6sn7gt > Ken Rad VT231.


That is all.   Carry on.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 31, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Westinghouse 6sn7gt > Ken Rad VT231.
> 
> 
> That is all.   Carry on.






OK.  Tell me more ...  Or are you yanking my chain?


----------



## ProfFalkin (May 31, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> OK.  Tell me more ...  Or are you yanking my chain?



More.





hehehe... I'm not yanking your chain.   Cleaner highs. Mids seem tonally better and accurate.   KR might have a slight edge in bass, but the rest goes to the Westinghouse.   Through my Gumby/Eikons, that is.   It just seems more even and natural sounding.   (Bass still hits hard, btw, I think the KR might have a slight edge in quantity though.)

Oh look, here's one for $16. 

(I am in no way associated with that seller.)

It took a solid week and a half of 8 hours per day for it to settle in, but... it's #1 in my books now.

Edit - Also, the changes are more nuanced in comparison to the KR.   They're both top notch tubes.  It's not as big of a difference like between the stock nos and the KR, but it's there.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Also, the Tung Sol I have is not so good.   It does bad, naughty, "show me on the doll where the bad man touched you" kinds of things to the midrange.   T plates.  GTB.   Proceed with caution.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 31, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Oh look, here's one for $16.



Oh.  What a shame, it's no longer available...   

Geez.  I'm gonna have some splaining to do with the wife . The following will be delivered in the next few days ...

2x Fotons (1x flat plate / 1x ribbed)
1x Hitachi GTB
and now 1x Westinghouse

(Alright-  1 more Ken-Rad for spare (black glass) and 1 Sylvania Bad Boy and I'm done.  No really.  I'm not kidding!!  Right after the Raytheon.) **


** I should have gotten a Jotunhiem instead.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Oh.  What a shame, it's no longer available...
> 
> Geez.  I'm gonna have some splaining to do with the wife . The following will be delivered in the next few days ...
> 
> ...


I owned a Jotunheim. Lyr3 is better, so you made the right choice!! (although the expensive one)
Plenty more WESTINGHOUSE 6SN7GT for similar prices... very tempting if indeed as good or better than KR VT231...
Please report back after you compare them all (for now, I am enjoying the stock TS tube).


----------



## FLTWS

Zachik said:


> I owned a Jotunheim. Lyr3 is better, so you made the right choice!! (although the expensive one)...



That's the way I hear it as well but others may feel otherwise, so...
Two very different sounds, that's why I use Loki with my Jot.
The Jot does eliminate the "Wheel of Fortune" tube rolling angst.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

ProfFalkin said:


> More.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I just bought this Westinghouse tube, is it the same as yours?  https://www.ebay.com/itm/183250947354#viTabs_0

I can't stand Tung-Sol... female vocals sound so lifeless... really hoping this improves things for me.


----------



## FLTWS

I found the the US madeTung-Sol 6SN7WGTB Early 60’s, JAN, Military Grade, is a much better sounding tube.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 31, 2018)

I'll just accept it.  No sense fighting it.  The more one fights it the more one sinks into the bottomless pit of tube rolling…

(Insert words TUBES and TUBE ADDICTION where appropriate)


----------



## ProfFalkin

caenlenfromOCN said:


> I just bought this Westinghouse tube, is it the same as yours?  https://www.ebay.com/itm/183250947354#viTabs_0
> 
> I can't stand Tung-Sol... female vocals sound so lifeless... really hoping this improves things for me.


That one looks different.  The one I have has a top D getter and staggered flat plates.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

jconde said:


> Hello guys.  I am an ignoramous.  I just bought the Lyr 3 with the two stock tubes.  I want to try  vintage tube but i know nothing of years or ribbed plates.  Can you recommend me my first tube or two.  Should it be a Ken-Rad or and RCA?  please help me with specifics like years and rib plates etc.
> 
> Thank you all.  i hope I am not just entering a new addiction.


Gurus who are in the background,
I know there are older threads that do the FAQ for valves available in North America. Can someone post a couple of links? Thanks in advance, eh.


----------



## quimbo

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Gurus who are in the background,
> I know there are older threads that do the FAQ for valves available in North America. Can someone post a couple of links? Thanks in advance, eh.


Here is one - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/


----------



## ScubaMan2017

quimbo said:


> Here is one - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/


That's a deep thread. Lots of goodness. Tube rolling is quite the thing


----------



## quimbo

ScubaMan2017 said:


> That's a deep thread. Lots of goodness. Tube rolling is quite the thing


Here is another https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

I think maybe I should have just got the Magni 3 and called it a day. sigh.

guess i can still do that and sell the lyr 3, not sure yet. something about the lyr 3 is just lacking to me. even my massdrop o2 amp medium gain sounds better on low ohm cans.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 31, 2018)

Wow.  That's surprising.  My 22 ohm HiFiman HE400S cans and 16 ohm NuDorce EDC IEMs sound fantastic -- both at low gain.  You've probably tried this, but ...

1. Have you tried a different tube
2. Have you let the tubes break-in -- at least 24 hours power-on time.
3. Are you allowing the Lyr time to warm-up?

Also - what are you using for a DAC? (Schiit module or an external)

I came from a Magni 3 and despite Magni 3 being an awesome value, Lyr 3 was a big improvement!!


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow.  That's surprising.  My 22 ohm HiFiman HE400S cans and 16 ohm NuDorce EDC IEMs sound fantastic -- both at low gain.  You've probably tried this, but ...
> 
> 1. Have you tried a different tube
> 2. Have you let the tubes break-in -- at least 24 hours power-on time.
> ...



ya I leave the Lyr 3 on 24.7 and i use modi multibit - optical to my pc mobo

ill give it some more time. i dunno yet


----------



## Ripper2860

Strange --  And you've tried a different tube, right?

Maybe an e-mail to Schiit audio inquiring about your setup is in order.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

quimbo said:


> Here is another https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/


_Deeper, and deeper, the tube-rolling-paradigm-rabbit-hole seems to go. And here I thought, the glass valves just look pretty (when they glow after a bit of usage, while listening in the dark, I wonder if it satisfies some primeval, caveman desire for fire). Okay, yes. I have foggy memories from ~1975 staring into the back of an old wood-frame stereo system my parents had (before I trucked off to kindergarten for a day of hard study). Gazing at the tubes._


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Ripper2860 said:


> Strange --  And you've tried a different tube, right?
> 
> Maybe an e-mail to Schiit audio inquiring about your setup is in order.



raytheon tube sounds better than tung sol certainly. and i have a few more tubes on the way.  i will give it some more time and report back.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Nov 30, 2020)

I hope this helps.


----------



## ilikepooters

Raytheon 6F8G now in the Lyr 3






Very neutral sounding tube, detailed but not overly analytical. Treble is the best i've heard yet from any headphone / amp, smooth but detailed and airy and very natural.

Bass is tight and controlled, mids are neutral, not recessed.

Soundstage nearly as wide as the NEVZ 6N1P-EV's i've been using, but has a lot more depth, is more 3D.


Very good tube worth trying.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

ilikepooters said:


> Raytheon 6F8G now in the Lyr 3
> 
> 
> 
> ...




do i need an adapter with this tube? where do i buy that wire at?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 1, 2018)

Nope.  Not gonna do it.  Gotta draw the line somewhere and franken-tubing is where I have placed that line...

for now.  


(And this is likely very low on the WAF scale.)


----------



## ilikepooters (Jun 1, 2018)

caenlenfromOCN said:


> do i need an adapter with this tube? where do i buy that wire at?




Yes adaptor:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1PC-6F8G-TO-6SN7-Vacuum-TUBE-SOCKET-ADAPTER-converter-handmade/302571936679?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I've had 2 different adaptors from that seller so far and very good quality, solidly built.


6F8G is electrically identical to 6SN7 but with a different pin arrangement and one of the pins is attached to the top cap (1x grid or 1x anode forget which)


----------



## ilikepooters

Also this tube is worth snapping up>

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ONE-NOS-...029187&hash=item3b0e528072:g:UB0AAOSw-tFbBeIb


Cheap and i've had 2 already from this seller, both crackled like hell but i've re-flown the solder in the pins and now quiet as a mouse.

Print on the glass has faded on mine but is readable in the right light, looks like the following:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6N8S-157...495777?hash=item28423585e1:g:fqYAAOSwVaVZ12WD

Are these the famous MELZ?

The 2 i bought do sound really good, waiting for proper burn in before more impressions.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

I'm with Ripper on this one. You almost had me, but nope, I MUST RESIST!!! I AM NEO AND YOU ARE AN AGENT!!!!!  ::headbangs::


----------



## FLTWS

I don't know fellas'...looks kinda' cool. A great conversation starter with the ladies.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 1, 2018)

FLTWS said:


> I don't know fellas'...looks kinda' cool. A great conversation starter with the ladies.



Yeah.  I could see that going like this  …

*Cute girl walks-up*:  _"Hi.  That looks really cool.  What is that?  Wow -- you must be very smart with technology and all...


... I bet you could help get my boyfriend's iPhone connected to the Internet.  He's right over there."
_
Doesn't seem promising to me.



ilikepooters said:


> Raytheon 6F8G now in the Lyr 3
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can see this easily devolving into a 'My Tube is Bigger than Yours' thread.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN (Jun 1, 2018)

rofl you guys crack me up.

in other news, my first new tube arrived today, GE JAN  WGTA NOS 6SN7... pristine condition... looks beautiful. going to warm it up for 12 hours before i even listen to it, just run it on low gain while i sleep tonight on spotify jazz or something

it says made in canada...

how can a JAN... be Canada...   anyone enlighten me? did i just get scammed?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

bcowen said:


> You got scammed paying money for a GE tube. Seller should have paid you to take it.



it actually has better bass/soundstage then the raytheon does to my ears, just not as good in female vocals.


----------



## ProfFalkin

caenlenfromOCN said:


> it actually has better bass/soundstage then the raytheon does to my ears, just not as good in female vocals.


It wouldn't surprise me if a GE tube sounds good from the Lyr 3.   I'm noticing it's a bit of an oddball amp.  Tubes that are commonly regarded as best in other amps really aren't all that great in the Lyr (RCA red base 5692, for example), but the lesser regarded Ken Rad, Westinghouse and Raytheon tubes really synergize well.

If you like it, use it, and more power to you.


----------



## ilikepooters

OK 

So burned in one of the '54 MELZ 6N8S (non hole plate) overnight for 14hrs with pink noise, has really opened up.

This is quite a warm tube, bass has real heft and slam but well controlled, i always struggle to describe mids but i'd say "rich" and "texture", and treble is nice and smooth but detailed and airy. Looking about on the interweb the real MELZ holed plate version just has more air in the treble.

It's like listening to the RCA 5692 red base but this tube excited me more, it's a more 3D sounding tube, far wider imaging and has "air" and "decay" much better up and down the frequency range.

In Lyr 3 it basically corrects what the RCA 5692 does wrong.


Having said the above i can only compare to franken-tubing with 6F8G, 6N1P-EV, and using the dull, lifeless and thin sounding stock Tung Sol and LISST. Haven't used any "bad boys" or any of the highly regarded 'merican tubes you lot are all rolling. 

I did grab one of the Westinghouse tubes suggested earlier in the thread, so will be able to compare to that one once it has arrived and burned in. Also have '53 Foton ribbed plate on the way.


So my ranking so far (according to my personal taste of warm, smooth, laid back, imaging and airy)


1: '54 MELZ 6N8S (non holed grey plates)
2: '67 NEVZ 6N1P-EV
3: Raytheon 6F8G (grey glass rectangular getter) more of a neutral sounding choice
4: RCA 5692 red base (unknown year)
5: '77 Voskhod 6N23P silver shield (6N23P doesn't seem to synergize greatly with Lyr, but is still more exciting than LISST and stock Tung Sol)
6: Stock Tung Sol
7: LISST


Looks like i really prefer tubeyness over solid state


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if a GE tube sounds good from the Lyr 3.   I'm noticing it's a bit of an oddball amp.  Tubes that are commonly regarded as best in other amps really aren't all that great in the Lyr (RCA red base 5692, for example), but the lesser regarded Ken Rad, Westinghouse and Raytheon tubes really synergize well.
> 
> If you like it, use it, and more power to you.



Maybe the different synergies are a result of the "Coherence™ hybrid topology" and the "Continuity™—a constant transconductance output stage" stuff?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> Thanks for the detailed description!  I've gotta get off the Foton merry go round for a bit and give the Melz some play time. Don't have a '54 but have a '52. I like the way you describe the air and decay, as that gradual fade of a note into silence is (to me) a lot of what brings realism to the table. I hear that same qualityin the Fotons, so I gotta see how it compares to the Melz.


Don't know if it's the same with the Fotons but with the MELZ they need a lot of warm up time, sound best to me when amp been switched on 6+ hours.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## quimbo

Just received a 1948 RCA 6SN7GT 1948 black plate.  This should be the last tube for awhile but who knows


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 3, 2018)

Nope. Nope. Nope.  Can't see any of ya'lls posts about tubes.  Nope. I'm covering my eye,  Nah. Nah. Nah. Nah ...  Nope.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 2, 2018)

FLTWS said:


> Maybe the different synergies are a result of the "Coherence™ hybrid topology" and the "Continuity™—a constant transconductance output stage" stuff?



My thoughts exactly.  Perhaps these technologies reveals the good that's been missing in some so-called mediocre tubes and reveals the flaws in some highly regarded tubes.  Perhaps it is designed to adhere to  a new Schiit paradigm -- 'For the Tubes You Can Actually Afford -- Not those You Can't'.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Ding. Ding. Ding.  We have a WINNER!!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 2, 2018)

I hope it sucks to high heaven.  I REALLY don't want to buy any more tubes...

(Yes you do.) 
(No, I don't.) 
(Come on -- it's fun.) 
(No, it's fiscally irresponsible.) 
(But it is sooo hedonistic -- give into your base desires.) 
(STOP IT!  Oh, please stop it! bwah-ha-ha-ha.) 




Did I post this out-loud?!


----------



## Ripper2860

OK.  I've recovered after calling my Tube-Rollers Anonymous sponsor.  So...

Where do you guys get your tube boxes for storage.  Any recommended sellers or solutions?



(Don't tell my sponsor I'm asking about this.  Keep it on the down-low.)


----------



## quimbo

Ripper2860 said:


> OK.  I've recovered after calling my Tube-Rollers Anonymous sponsor.  So...
> 
> Where do you guys get your tube boxes for storage.  Any recommended sellers or solutions?
> 
> ...


boxes - https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/tube-box-fits-6v6gt-6sn7gt-12sk7


----------



## quimbo

quimbo said:


> Just received a 1948 RCA 6SN7GT 1948 black plate.  This should be the last tube for awhile but who knows


Been playing for about an hour, decided to take a quick listen.  Miles Davis I Fall In Love Too Easily from Seven Steps To Heaven, low gain.    Very nice sound stage, nice lows, mids and highs,my Loki is on flat for all 4 frequencies.  I think this is going to be another nice tube.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 2, 2018)

Thanks.  I ordered 20.  (That doesn't bode well for me.)

On a related matter:

Received the Foton flat T-Plate from Upscale. I removed the Ken-Rad while whispering to it in a reassuring tone that this was just temporary and it was getting a much deserved rest. Once the KR  was secured in the storage box and could not see what I was doing, I placed the Upscale purchased Foton in the Lyr 3. It's only been about 60 minutes and I'm liking what I hear. The mids seem more pronounced (not sure if it's overly so until it's fully cooked) and more layers. Bass doesn't seem too shabby either. Of course, I'm not listening in an overly critical fashion at this point, as it is way too early in the tube simmering process.

I also received the Westinghouse GTB, but that will be for another time, as I don't want to rush things or risk the wife seeing it just yet. ** 




** It's not that she's a B**** about it, it's just the disappointed look and head-shake resulting yet another attempt at me explaining my obsession in hopes that she'll finally get it.  (And my knowing deep down inside, that she never will.)  Damn, her practical side!!


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

My Ken Rad Black Glass arrived today, I forget who convinced me to buy it on this thread, but the microphonics are the worst I have ever heard in my life, that being said, when the volume is cranked, it does sound good, really good actually. Most of my headphone stable is sensitive cans though which exacerbates the microphonics (and for some reason its only the left ear that suffers, even at 0 volume there is a loud static noise on lyr 3 with this tube none of my other tubes do this)... so I am not sure if its just a defective tube


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 2, 2018)

That sounds like a bad tube.  I have the KR (1940's) and it is dead silent.  Microphonics is usually a ringing sound -- not static,  I'd reach out to the seller.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

bcowen said:


> Did you clean the tube pins? And along with that, if you've been swapping a lot of tubes in and out of the Lyr it would be good to clean its socket contacts.
> 
> Obviously could be a bad tube, but poor or intermittent electrical contact can easily be responsible for the static noise and may contribute to what's perceived as microphonics.



no other tube has microphonics and yes before i put this tube in my lyr 3 i use 99% isoproyl alcohol, on end of a qtip and cleaned each pin. and let it dry... i think its just a bad tube, only cost $31 on ebay "untested" im gonna just mail it back for refund i think and stick with tung sol.


----------



## Valens7

Lyr 3 arrived today, comparison with MCTH and Torpedo III underway...


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Valens7 said:


> Lyr 3 arrived today, comparison with MCTH and Torpedo III underway...



looking forward to it mate. I was not a fan of the MCTH at all. my DIY tube amp starving student millet with 2x USAF tubes stomped the MCTH and only cost $85.

verdict is still out on lyr 3. i need more time to decide.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 2, 2018)

caenlenfromOCN said:


> ...im gonna just mail it back for refund i think and stick with tung sol.



It would be a shame if you gave up on getting a KR.  If you can, keep it on your list of future tubes and sometime later try a used tested tube from a reputable seller.  It'll be a little more than the $31 you paid (maybe $50'ish with shipping), but certainly less frustration for you and less risk to your Lyr 3.

BTW -- The Tung-Sol is a nice tube.  You could sit pat there and likely be very happy.


----------



## Valens7

caenlenfromOCN said:


> I was not a fan of the MCTH at all. my DIY tube amp starving student millet with 2x USAF tubes stomped the MCTH and only cost $85.



I like the MCTH well enough. I find it's quite similar to the Torpedo in many respects. Less aggressive and dynamic, but with a more natural soundstage.

That said, the Starving Student is a legendary amp! Although I've not heard it myself, it's not surprising to me that someone might prefer it.


----------



## FLTWS (Jun 2, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> That sounds like a bad tube.  I have the KR (1940's) and it is dead silent.  Microphonics is usually a ringing sound -- not static,  I'd reach out to the seller.




I agree, especially if none of your other tubes display this static.

The USA made Tung-Sol WGBT JAN of 60's vintage is a very nice sounding tube and I prefer it to the stock one.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 2, 2018)

I can't believe I'm even asking this, but does anyone have experience with this tube?  Thoughts/opinions?

https://amazon.com/Psvane-UK-6SN7-V...=1527986172&sr=8-10&keywords=6sn7+vacuum+tube

I know, but it just looks kinda cool!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Thank you!!  Finally a potentially negative aspect to a tube that puts the kabash on an impulse buy!!


----------



## ilikepooters

ilikepooters said:


> Raytheon 6F8G now in the Lyr 3
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Gave this some more burn in time with pink noise overnight. Seems to have developed much more, bass quantity has improved, more warmth to the midrange.
This is an all day easy to listen to tube, the MELZ is more of a party tube.

Joint first place now with the MELZ this 6F8G, if you want more slam or you're headphones are a bit anaemic then the MELZ, but otherwise the Raytheon 6F8G is the most natural sounding tube i've ever heard.


----------



## cebuboy (Jun 3, 2018)

L-R Sylvania 6SN7, Melz ribbed plates, Foton ribbed plates, Foton plain plates, stock 6H8C(possibly Nevz)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Got the '53 Foton ribbed plates today (was delivered yesterday but not my address 'cos i'm always at work)

After warming up for 90 minutes had a quick listen, sounds great already.

I bought them as NOS but you never know if they have been used, might be burned in already.

Will burn in overnight and all day tomorrow, if this is as good as they get still an incredible bargain for the sound, $21 for the pair and only $8 shipping to the UK.


----------



## jconde

ilikepooters said:


> Got the '53 Foton ribbed plates today (was delivered yesterday but not my address 'cos i'm always at work)
> 
> After warming up for 90 minutes had a quick listen, sounds great already.
> 
> ...




Where did you get them Please?


----------



## ilikepooters

Ebay, 3 pairs left.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tested-6...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## cebuboy (Jun 6, 2018)

Tried the 6N3P-DR with the adaptor, works and sounds great.

Just a note of caution: due to my carelessnes, rolled in a bad tube and it popped the driver of my HD650, pretty costly mistake. The Lyr 3 got enough power to fry heapdhones.


----------



## Wes S

cebuboy said:


> Tried the 6N3P-DR with the adaptor, works and sounds great.
> 
> Just a note of caution: due to my carelessnes, rolled in a bad tube and it popped the driver of my HD650, pretty costly mistake. The Lyr 3 got enough power to fry heapdhones.


Sorry to hear that!  How can a bad tube pop a driver?  I have never heard of that.  What should I look out for?


----------



## cebuboy

Wes S said:


> Sorry to hear that!  How can a bad tube pop a driver?  I have never heard of that.  What should I look out for?



Well, after the relay clicked, right driver made a pop sound and the left driver made buzzing sound while music still audible. Quickly turned the amp off, swapped another tube and the headphones does not sound right. The right driver sounds like a tweeter only and very faint, left driver got no more bass response. Had same thing happen with the Vali 2 but no harm to the headphones, guess the lyr 3 is too powerful. Most probably a shorted tube. Better have your tubes tested for shorts.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 7, 2018)

Bad tubes?  I get a pop, every time the relay clicks on, and nothing bad has happened.  I actually emailed Schiit with concern, on the issue, and they assured me it would not hurt my headphones.


----------



## cebuboy

Wes S said:


> Bad tubes?  I get a pop, every time the relay clicks on, and nothing bad has happened.  I actually emailed Schiit with concern, on the issue, and they assured me it would not hurt my headphones.



Yup, stuff like this happens with vintage tubes, already had a few bad ones from this batch. Symptoms range from buzzing to hum to weak sound. I usually tried it in the Vali 2 with no ill effects.

That is the normal pop you got, some tubes do that and some don’t, you just hear the relay click.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Wes S said:


> What should I look out for?


Smoke.   Flames.    Voice coil projectiles.   You know, the usual.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> Smoke.   Flames.    Voice coil projectiles.   You know, the usual.


Dang. . .Who knew headphones could be so dangerous!


----------



## ilikepooters (Jun 8, 2018)

'53 Foton ribbed plate burned in nicely now, really opened up.


This is a special tube. Them Russkies really know what they're doing


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 8, 2018)

I have a '55 ribbed I'm letting simmer before passing judgement.  So far it has great promise once I get past the Jekyll and Hyde aspects of the break-in process.  It has revealed the wonderfully musical side that awaits once the metal garbage-can lid clanging demon side has been banished.   I also have 6x '53 ribbed Fotons on their way from Russia.

Once cooked, I suspect it's going to be a tough call between these Fotons and the Ken-Rad.   It's close, and will likely depend on the headphone pairing.


----------



## ilikepooters (Jun 9, 2018)

Westing in the House






I don't know who made this tube other than it's  Westinghouse branding.
Dark staggered plates (photo is overexposed, looks a lot darker plates IRL)
D / (horseshoe?) getter.
9R04 is a date code?


Anyway this tube sounds magnificent. Was sold to me as NOS but i think it's used, sounds burned in already.

Instrument separation and detailing are incredible, can can really hear the air with this one. beautiful texture to the mids and bass extends really low, treble extends really high.

if you could draw a line between sibilant and not sibilant, this would sit smack dab on the line.


i'll give it the mandatory 48 hours of proper burn in but i think this tube will seat near the very top of the ones i've tried so far.



Thanks to whoever it was that suggested Westinghouse earlier in the thread (might have been another thread).


----------



## iamjaymo

ilikepooters said:


> Westing in the House
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks good, so where did you get it?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jun 9, 2018)

ilikepooters said:


> Westing in the House
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It took a while for mine to settle in, and I almost dismissed this tube, but I'm glad I didn't.  It's been in my Lyr3 for weeks now.  Great tube.  My favorite tube at this point.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 9, 2018)

Double Post


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 9, 2018)

I have the same Westinghouse house tube (Staggered Black plates / Top D getter.  I have yet give it any more time than the time it took to confirm it was functional.  On my list to let simmer and assess.  It's got some big shoes to fill if it is going to unseat the 40's staggered plates Ken-Rad in my stable.  And the '55 Foton ribbed plate is a rising star making a strong run to the top!!   It's going to be fun!!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Phantaminum

bcowen said:


> The downsides of Franken-rolling: got the 7N7 adapter stuck. Not enough of the adapter above the surface of the Lyr's top cover to grip it with my fingers. _Finally_ got it out with some needle-nose vise grips, but not before I'd packed a suitcase for a trip to Screwed-ville.  But that brings up the bigger question: anybody know how to get the cover off the Lyr 3? I looked and looked and couldn't determine exactly how it's fastened on there. I'm not about to take a screwdriver to it and start prying (unless, of course, that's how you get the cover off).



Grab yourself a 6NS7 socket saver. It'll make it easier to roll different adapters and it'll make most adapters sit flush or above the amps opening.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> ...anybody know how to get the cover off the Lyr 3? I looked and looked and couldn't determine exactly how it's fastened on there. I'm not about to take a screwdriver to it and start prying (unless, of course, that's how you get the cover off).



LOL!  So Franken-tubing almost bit you in the butt!!

Oh and the case cover removal?  That's by design.  It says right on the back -- No user serviceable parts inside.


----------



## Ripper2860

Seriously.  I think I read that they had to change the case to  a slide-lock mechanism in order to accommodate the PCB and components.  After a cursory look at mine and a quick Google, it remains a mystery..


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

That should do the trick!!  

*** Just couldn't wait for it to get here, could ya?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters (Jun 9, 2018)

iamjaymo said:


> Looks good, so where did you get it?


.

Ebay.

Here's one: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...270436?hash=item5d7e339da4:g:RuMAAOSwzrxUuZVz

Expensive but that's the version us lot on here have.

Might be worth googling it to see if it shows up on any popular tube selling websites.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 9, 2018)

Might be worth making an offer at about $20 for one tube (can't really tell if they are selling 1 or 2).  I paid $10.95 + $6.00 for shipping for 1 D-Getter like this one although mine tested at 2370/2475 (2600/2600 is like new).  This one appears to test a bit stronger.

Note:  There are some round halo top Getter models. I cannot say if those are worse, but they are not the same.  Looks for the top D shaped Getter (like the Halo, but D shape instead or round).


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Scruffy one with poorly matched triodes for $5.60

http://www.vivatubes.com/westinghouse-usa-6sn7gtb-black-flat-plate-top-gtr-vacuum-tube-6sn7-117-73/


----------



## ProfFalkin

ilikepooters said:


> .
> 
> Ebay.
> 
> ...


I think I spent $35 (including shipping) for mine.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters (Jun 10, 2018)

I've switched back to the MELZ after using the Westinghouse and now it seems a bit... off...

Maybe it's down to burn in, but it sounds a bit like music being played in a cave and the treble is muddy / grainy compared to the Westinghouse. Overall boomy sound.


Hopefully a good long burn in will help as they haven't had a proper amount so far.


I need to see how my UM Miracles pair with the Lyr 3 as well. Not tried 'em yet.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 10, 2018)

While I have not spent a great deal of time with the Westinghouse, I do find it to be really nice.  A bit darker midrange presentation, with nice crystalline highs (cymbals, etc.) which may make the mids sound comparatively a bit recessed.  The WH does have a nice attack and impact with bass and snare drums, although the upper mids on acoustic piano ring a bit and are a bit 'heavy' or 'thick' on hammer strike.  A slightly more compressed soundstage, but not claustrophobic and not lacking in air in the cymbals.  It seems like a good tube If one likes a little darker, warmer sound -- assuming the slight mid harshness gets cooked out after some break-in.  I'll be giving this one more time.

** Sound characteristics are in comparison to the '55 Ribbed Foton and 40's Staggered Plates Ken-Rad.  YMMV.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> While I have not spent a great deal of time with the Westinghouse, I do find it to be really nice.  A bit darker midrange presentation, with nice crystalline highs (cymbals, etc.) which may make the mids sound comparatively a bit recessed.  The WH does have a nice attack and impact with bass and snare drums, although the upper mids on acoustic piano ring a bit and are a bit 'heavy' or 'thick' on hammer strike.  A slightly more compressed soundstage, but not claustrophobic and not lacking in air in the cymbals.  It seems like a good tube If one likes a little darker, warmer sound -- assuming the slight mid harshness gets cooked out after some break-in.  I'll be giving this one more time.
> 
> ** Sound characteristics are in comparison to the '55 Ribbed Foton and 40's Staggered Plates Ken-Rad.  YMMV.


Wait for it...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> That's what my wife said when we were dating.


Are you still waiting?  Hehehe


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 10, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Wait for it...



I've not given up on it.  I'll roll it in to simmer while I'm at work over the next few days.  I'll likely find myself rolling in the Foton and KR during extended listening sessions until it blossoms, though.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> That's what my wife said when we were dating.



I thought for sure she would have said -- "Is that a Gold Lion KT-77 in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?"


----------



## ProfFalkin

My ex loved my 300B.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters (Jun 13, 2018)

Took a gamble on another Westinghouse tube

https://m.ebay.co.uk/orderDetails?itemId=183256559399&txnId=1829324301008

Never seen this construction before, has what looks like support rods coming from the top mica to press against the glass to prevent microphonics.

Also a red base and the micas look round instead of oval.

Untested and unknown condition but thought I'd grab it because it looks rare.

Should hopefully have it within a month.


Anyone know anything about this construction?


*EDIT* after some research seems to be standard construction for 6SN7 WGT. hope i've not wasted my money


----------



## Ripper2860

The Westinghouse D getter is sounding quite nice after some additional simmering.  So nice in fact, that I've started looking around for another.  Any experience with the round halo getter version of the Westinghouse.  The D getter is difficult to find, but there seem to be a lot more of the round halo getter versions.  Any experience with them and if so, how do they compare to  the delicious D?


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> The Westinghouse D getter is sounding quite nice after some additional simmering.  So nice in fact, that I've started looking around for another.  Any experience with the round halo getter version of the Westinghouse.  The D getter is difficult to find, but there seem to be a lot more of the round halo getter versions.  Any experience with them and if so, how do they compare to  the delicious D?


I don't know if they sound different.  I've only heard the D getter version.

I'd be curious to find out.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I suspect you already have one and you're not saying ...


----------



## ProfFalkin

Just one?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 13, 2018)

Yeah.  Silly me.  I forgot who we're talking about, here.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Ripper2860 said:


> The Westinghouse D getter is sounding quite nice after some additional simmering.  So nice in fact, that I've started looking around for another.  Any experience with the round halo getter version of the Westinghouse.  The D getter is difficult to find, but there seem to be a lot more of the round halo getter versions.  Any experience with them and if so, how do they compare to  the delicious D?




I took delivery of my 2nd one of these yesterday (black staggered plates and D getter) and i've managed to purchase a 3rd. Should keep me going for many years.


This is truly a magical tube. Might be the proverbial "holy grail" tube for Lyr 3 depending on which headphones it's paired with. Sounds truly special with HE-500's.


----------



## Ripper2860

It's starting to grow on me to the point I have 2 more on the way - just in case ...


----------



## Wes S

Alpha Prime + Lyr 3 with KenRad = Pure Bliss 

Just got the Alpha Primes and they are really good with the KenRad.  The bass is very tight and has great impact.  You can feel the bass.  The rest of the spectrum, sounds great too.  Very holographic and euphonic.

Any of you Westinghouse D getter fans, compared it to the KenRad staggered plates?  I am especially wondering how they compare in the bass.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 17, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Can't comment on the Westinghouse. Seems to be the only tube ever made I _don't_ have.
> 
> But how are you liking the Alphas? Mine have been sitting on the shelf since I got the Aeon's, but I should probably pull them back out and get 'em warmed up again...


I am absolutely loving the Primes.  I feel like I have finally arrived, to a level of premium sound.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 17, 2018)

Wes S said:


> Any of you Westinghouse D getter fans, compared it to the KenRad staggered plates? I am especially wondering how they compare in the bass.



I own both.  The KR is an excellent tube that does just about everything right.  To me, the WH bass is a bit punchier and deeper than the KR.  The KR does seem to have a bit more pronounced mid-bass, while WH is just deeper and a bit more powerful.  The midrange is nice on both, but maybe a bit more recessed on the WH -- not such that it is detrimental to the sound, however.  Highs are nice and crisp on both w/o being fatiguing. Soundstage is about the same to me, with the KR having a slightly more euphonic and layered sound, but again, its close.  Of course this is all using my ears and my HE400S cans, so your results may be quite different.

In general, it's really tough to put one over the other (KR vs WH) as they have more similarities than differences, but I feel confident in saying that if one has the WH black plate D getter, a 40's KR staggered plate, and a Foton 50's ribbed plate for tubes, they are definitely set for a very enjoyable ride with Lyr 3!!


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> The Westinghouse D getter is sounding quite nice after some additional simmering.  So nice in fact, that I've started looking around for another.  Any experience with the round halo getter version of the Westinghouse.  The D getter is difficult to find, but there seem to be a lot more of the round halo getter versions.  Any experience with them and if so, how do they compare to  the delicious D?



I've got one of each on the way in a few days.


----------



## Ripper2860

I've added a 2nd WH D getter and have a 3rd on the way ...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Better?  Maybe.  Mo?  Never!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Put in a snipe at $56.99 and see how you do.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Or you could take what's behind door #3...


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> I was pretty much kidding. Yup. Just kidding. I'd never do that. Nope. Not even gonna think about it.


Lies and propaganda.


----------



## iamjaymo

My Westinghouse D Getter should be here Thursday! Same day a Ken-Rad arrives. I’m trying not to be influenced by some of the comments on both. Should be interesting...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 18, 2018)

Excellent choices. I'll tell you who the winner is -- You!!   

These are both great tubes!!  Just make sure you break them in a bit (16-24 hours) before doing any critical listening and making any judgement.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Ripper2860 said:


> Or you could take what's behind door #3...





ProfFalkin said:


> Lies and propaganda.



Monty Hall (and his doors) come to mind.  Here's a 2014 article from New Scientist....

*Love, The Ministry Of*


----------



## FLTWS

Just Arrived!                                                                                                      D-GETTER                       HALO-GETTER


----------



## iamjaymo

FLTWS said:


> Just Arrived!                                                                                                      D-GETTER                       HALO-GETTER



Just got my D-Getter as well along with a 1946 Ken-Rad. Post what you think of the Westinghouse... the Ken-Rad is surely gonna be hard to beat for me.


----------



## Ripper2860

Nice!  A tall bottle and short bottle.  Curious to know if you here any difference.


----------



## FLTWS

iamjaymo said:


> Just got my D-Getter as well along with a 1946 Ken-Rad. Post what you think of the Westinghouse... the Ken-Rad is surely gonna be hard to beat for me.



Need burn-in time on both, always a PITA.

I've spent the last couple of days comparing my LYR3 with Ken-Rad to my Ragnarok both in SE with spl levels matched by meter. I am amazed at how close the LYR3/K-R matches the sound of my Rag. 
The differences are extremely small.
The Rag gives slightly more range and control at the extreme top and bottom and sounds a little quicker on transient attack and decay giving an impression of very slightly better transparency, 
The LYR3 is warmer, with a more rounded sound to the body of instruments and has a touch more air and maybe a better sound field presentation.
But again, "extremely small" differences, almost gave myself a hernia straining to detect them.


----------



## iamjaymo

Cool comparison! I have been nothing short of immensely impressed with the Lyr 3. Tube rolling has been a fun exercise and I’m surprised at how much it responds to different tubes. Pretty sweet piece of gear from Schiit.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

Got mine from Brent Jesse as well. Very pleased with all the tubes I've gotten from him.

I'm curious myself about D vs O. I usually like to get 50 hours on a tube before I start making comparisons. But when I'm not listening I'm burning-in for 16 hours a day with a cd so it usually only takes about a week to do two tubes.

But, man, I like the Ken-Rad more and more with each listen.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 24, 2018)

@bcowen  ---  I don't have a halo getter WHs - all mine are D getters.  I'll be happy to buy a halo just for giggles for comparison.

Tomorrow is Foton day.  I just hope my ears are discerning enough to hear a difference and my audio vocabulary extensive enough to communicate that difference.

I sure hope the WH bottom end blosdoms for you.  I'm really taking to it, but not to a point where I dislike the Fotons.


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't have a halo getter WHs - all mine are D getters.  I'll be happy to buy a halo just for giggles for comparison.
> 
> Tomorrow is Foton day.  I just hope my ears are discerning enough to hear a difference and my vocabulary extensive enough to communicate that difference.
> 
> I sure hope the WH bottom end blosdoms for you.  I'm really taking to it, but not to a podcast not where I dislike the Fotons.



I think I got Brent's last "O" Getter.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jun 24, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen  ---  I don't have a halo getter WHs - all mine are D getters.  I'll be happy to buy a halo just for giggles for comparison.
> 
> Tomorrow is Foton day.  I just hope my ears are discerning enough to hear a difference and my audio vocabulary extensive enough to communicate that difference.
> 
> I sure hope the WH bottom end blosdoms for you.  I'm really taking to it, but not to a point where I dislike the Fotons.


My WH is a short bottle.  It has plenty of bass.  The guy who recommended them to me said to make sure it said Reliatron on it w/ D getter.   (So I did.)

Who knows what, if any, difference they're going to have.

Also, *quit buying these*.   

I keep trying to find a backup, and it's always sold before I pull the trigger.


----------



## Ripper2860

I have 3x WH Reliatron medium bottle D getters and a 4th that's re-branded as Channel Master.


----------



## ilikepooters

FLTWS said:


> Just Arrived!                                                                                                      D-GETTER                       HALO-GETTER




I'd be interested to know how that short bottle D getter sounds, both my D getters are tall bottle (3rd not turned up yet) What's the date code on your D getter?


----------



## FLTWS

ilikepooters said:


> I'd be interested to know how that short bottle D getter sounds, both my D getters are tall bottle (3rd not turned up yet) What's the date code on your D getter?



Not really sure how to read date codes;

The "Halo" tall bottle has 62-13 on it. To the right of the 'star" on the base looks like some print wore off or there was some over-spray / over-brush when labeling. 
The top has "Made in USA" and 6SN7GTB imprinted. Staggered, flat, light gray plates.

The "D" short bottle has "7R43" on the base to the right and 6SN7GTB imprinted on the side of the bottle.The same staggered, flat, plates but they are a darker gray color.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 24, 2018)

Hmmmm.   The mystery thickens.  After a closer inspection, I have 2x WH Reliatron labeled tubes and 1x WH labeled tube.  The Channel Master tube that I thought was a short bottle WH match, is NOT as the plates are a dark gray as opposed to black and wider, and mica is different.  All are top D getters, however.

Note:  The tube on the left of the 4-tube pic is a 9R52

I have not listened to the non-Reliatron WH yet, but I honestly cannot see any difference upon inspection.  Below are pics for those among us that are Tube Sleuths to review and comment...


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> Hmmmm.   The mystery thickens.  After a closer inspections, i have 2x WH Reliatron labeled tubes, 1x WH labeled tube.  The Channel Master tube that I thought was a WH match, is NOT a match as the plates are a dark gray as opposed to black, mica is different and plates are wider.  All are top D getters, however.
> 
> Note:  The tube on the left of the 4-tube pic is a 9R52
> 
> I have not listened to the non-Reliatron WH yet, but I honestly cannot see any difference upon inspection.  Below are pics for those among us that are Tube Sleuths to review and comment...



Images won't display


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Does that one resemble yours, @ProfFalkin (D getter up top not visible in the photo)?


Yes.  That's the one.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Your '*quit buying these*' link doesn't work (assuming that was meant to be a link?)


I was just being funny.  It wasn't a link.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 24, 2018)

FLTWS said:


> mages won't display



I've got links there since I cannot manage to figure out hot to imbed pics from Onedrive -- yet!!


Got it!!  Whoa -- way too big!!


What do you know -- I can upload images straight up to Head-fi.  Usually one must be a paying member of a forum to get access to such niceties.  

Looks like they auto-resized.


----------



## FLTWS

Now showing. Yes, I go through sizing issues as well whenever I post pics.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Here's some comparisons of my Westinghouse D getters.


Middle one has 8R39 date code, i'm guessing  39th week of '58? Both next to a MELZ for size comparison, are these medium bottles?
One on right has 9R04.







Middle one is a 6SN7GTA according to glass etching






One on far right has no etching on the side, but on the top says 6SN7GT with "AA" written underneath it.






Both tubes don't seem to sound any different.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 24, 2018)

My Westinghouse tube top markings are as follows:

1x Reliatron 9R35 tube is a 6SN7GTB
1x Reliatron 9R52 tube is a 6SN7GT
1x Electron (Non-Reliatron ) 9R43 tube is a 6SN7GTB

All are medium bottle w/ black staggered plates and top D getters.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

I am retiring from this thread with the sylvania bad boy's and ken rad black glass.  tung sol stock and russian stock are so lifeless in comparison, not sure what schiit was thinking on including those tubes with this amp... oh well. lesson learned, i just don't like schiit's house sound i guess.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 25, 2018)

Well, you certainly have upgraded with the KR!  While I have not tried the 'Bad Boy' yet, it is on my list.  Enjoy and see you around in other threads!!


----------



## ProfFalkin

caenlenfromOCN said:


> I am retiring from this thread with the sylvania bad boy's and ken rad black glass.  tung sol stock and russian stock are so lifeless in comparison, not sure what schiit was thinking on including those tubes with this amp... oh well. lesson learned, i just don't like schiit's house sound i guess.


k, bye.


----------



## FLTWS

How would one go about designing and marketing a tube amp around a limited supply of NOS tubes and at what price would it have to sell for?
NOS prices are anything but stable.


----------



## ilikepooters

FLTWS said:


> How would one go about designing and marketing a tube amp around a limited supply of NOS tubes and at what price would it have to sell for?
> NOS prices are anything but stable.




If i could design one i'd stick with hybrid like Schiit have done.

I'd probably base it around 6N1P because it's a solid and great sounding tube and can still be had for pennies. Also only use a single tube as in Lyr 3 (Double triode, why have 2?)

I'd love to have control over grid bias, plate voltage and cathode resistance too, be able to tweak the specs on the fly for various tubes / sounds.

I'd build it with a wall wart, if you want to spend more and have cleaner power then there are aftermarket options.


I'd probably sell it for $199 and have it shove 8 watts per channel into 32 ohms. Won't need any marketing with those specs and price 

Also have it easily accessible so people can mod it easily.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 25, 2018)

and VU meters ...  and a front power switch ...  



Note to self:  Talk to Jason about adding a temperature setting dial so Jot and Lyr 3 can also function as a coffee cup warmer.  Perhaps offer a line of brushed aluminum cups and carafes that match. This could be a real winner given the coffee lovers on this forum.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 27, 2018)

It has been quite for a few days, I take it a few of you, are still burning in those Westinghouse d getters . . .

I have put quite a few hours on a black glass KenRad, and it has burned in completely.  I have to say, I am quite shocked at how much it has changed!  This tube has become slightly warm and dark, with a deep sound stage and even more powerful bass.  However, even with the dark nature, the level of resolve is still very high.  This tube really has become, just what I was looking for.  Interestingly, just for kicks this past weekend, I rolled in a NOS clear glass KenRad vt231, with no hours on it and it was so bright, thin and constricted I just could not take it.  Burn in is real!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 27, 2018)

Absolutely.  The KR does need a little simmering to really open-up and blossom.  Given time, it develops a nice smoothness, nice texture detail and a wide soundstage with a nicely warm bottom-end.   It pairs very nicely with the Lyr 3 and does everything very, very well.  It's a definite excellent pairing -- especially with planar HPs.  While some will argue the virtues of burn-in for cables, amps, etc. -- the is no way one can discount that it is real with tubes.

1 of my WH D getters is almost cooked to perfection.  I have a few more to cook before I'm done.  The listening while a tube burns-in process can be quite frustrating at times as the tube can take on different personalities during the process vacillating between good and absolutely terrible and then great -- multiple times, before settling in!!


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Absolutely.  The KR does need a little simmering to really open-up and blossom.  Given time, it develops a nice smoothness, nice texture detail and a wide soundstage with a nicely warm bottom-end.   It pairs very nicely with the Lyr 3 and does everything very, very well.  It's a definite excellent pairing -- especially with planar HPs.  While some will argue the virtues of burn-in for cables, amps, etc. -- the is no way one can discount that it is real with tubes.
> 
> 1 of my WH D getters is almost cooked to perfection.  I have a few more to cook before I'm done.  The listening while a tube burns-in process can be quite frustrating at times as the tube can take on different personalities during the process vacillating between good and absolutely terrible and then great -- multiple times, before settling in!!


I completely agree


----------



## ilikepooters

I'm not burning in anything atm, it's too hot here (30c all this week atm) and i'm a renter so can't install a/c in the lounge 

So hot amp and hot pc staying off, only turning on for quick listening before bed.


----------



## Wes S

ilikepooters said:


> I'm not burning in anything atm, it's too hot here (30c all this week atm) and i'm a renter so can't install a/c in the lounge
> 
> So hot amp and hot pc staying off, only turning on for quick listening before bed.


Oh my!  I feel for ya!  It is hot here in Texas, and I don't know what I would do without a/c.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

I love my Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231


ilikepooters said:


> I'm not burning in anything atm, it's too hot here (30c all this week atm) and i'm a renter so can't install a/c in the lounge
> 
> So hot amp and hot pc staying off, only turning on for quick listening before bed.




None of my business man, but you own some expensive gear, you telling me you can't afford $150 for a window air condition unit (they actually don't even consume that much power nowadays thanks to tech advancements). I know it won't cool your whole house, but you can make your game and audio room nice and cold and just keep door closed.

Well just my two cents anyway, yolo


----------



## ilikepooters (Jun 27, 2018)

caenlenfromOCN said:


> I love my Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231
> 
> 
> 
> ...




We have weird windows in the UK like below, not suitable for window a/c.







I do have a portable a/c in the bedroom with a hot air pipe that goes out the window but it weighs too much to move upstairs downstairs.


If i owned house instead of renting i'd have proper split systems installed, but as it is i'd imagine the landlord would go nuts if i started drilling holes everywhere


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 29, 2018)

Been there, done that, with 50s ribbed Fotons.  The most excruciating and ultimately satisfying tube burn-in experience EVER!


----------



## iamjaymo

I don’t know who exactly it was who first mentioned the Westinghouse D Getter... maybe @Ripper2860 but they were absolutely right, sounds amazing! Bass is strong, to me, not too dissimilar from the Ken-Rad and perhaps a touch more “air” through the upper registers. Would have to A/B it to make sure but suffice to say if you can’t find a Ken-Rad, the WH D Getter is absolutely in the same ballpark sound quality wise.


----------



## FLTWS

iamjaymo said:


> I don’t know who exactly it was who first mentioned the Westinghouse D Getter... maybe @Ripper2860 but they were absolutely right, sounds amazing! Bass is strong, to me, not too dissimilar from the Ken-Rad and perhaps a touch more “air” through the upper registers. Would have to A/B it to make sure but suffice to say if you can’t find a Ken-Rad, the WH D Getter is absolutely in the same ballpark sound quality wise.



That's what I'm hearing as well. And considering the price differential WH is a steal. 
I'm still cooking my "O" getter, but so far, very similar to "D" getter. 
I'll most likely do some A/B/C'ing with WH's and K-R towards the end of next week.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 30, 2018)

As much as I would love to take credit as the first to reveal the wonderful WH DGetter, I believe it was @ProfFalkin that brought it to light (not 100% sure).  I am an advocate of that tube and do agree that it is a wonderful pairing with the Lyr 3 (or at least I'm going to tell myself that, now that I've acquired 4 of them).  

And yes -- the bass is quite impressive on these tubes -- extended with a bit of bass punch that is missing from the Fotons and KR.  As stated -- very, very balanced with a similar signature to the KR, but just a bit more at each end of the FR spectrum.  And very nice and open soundstage to boot.  I find myself vacillating between all 3.  (I sure hope the Lyr 3 tube socket holds up!)


----------



## iamjaymo

Ripper2860 said:


> As much as I would love to take credit as the first to reveal the wonderful WH DGetter, I believe it was @ProfFalkin that brought it to light (not 100% sure).  I am an advocate of that tube and do agree that it is a wonderful pairing with the Lyr 3 (or at least I'm going to tell myself that, now that I've acquired 4 of them).
> 
> And yes -- the bass is quite impressive on these tube -- extended with a bit of bass punch that is missing from the Fotons and KR.  As stated -- very, very balanced with a similar signature to the KR, but just a bit more at each end of the FR spectrum.  And very nice and open soundstage to boot.  I find myself vacillating between all 3.  (I sure hope the Lyr 3 tube socket holds up!)



Yes, agree the bass is definitely tighter/punchier on the WH. Just as deep as the KR tho. My Ori’s are REALLY sounding good with this tube!


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jun 29, 2018)

iamjaymo said:


> I don’t know who exactly it was who first mentioned the Westinghouse D Getter


*COUGH*   You're welcome.  *COUGH*.


Whew, pardon me.   Must be dust, or something.


----------



## iamjaymo

ProfFalkin said:


> *COUGH*   You're welcome.  *COUGH*.
> 
> 
> Whew, pardon me.   Must be dust, or something.



 Kudos Professor!


----------



## ProfFalkin

iamjaymo said:


> Kudos Professor!


Credit goes to a Friend of mine on another site.   Thanks Tyler!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 29, 2018)

Ooops.  I posted the below in another thread by mistake (Schiit Happened), but I meant to post here.  This is a tube rolling thread, after-all.  There's already a couple of responses in the other thread so I don't want to delete it form there, so sorry for the x-post.  Anyhow, it really belongs here, so...

_Just out of curiosity -- what is your tube burn-in process? I'd love to hear from others as to their process and what works or doesn't work for them. I think it'd be 'cool' (pun intended) to see what process others use to burn-in and get the most out of their tubes. Here's my general process (typically run over 5-7 days)...

1. I play a headphone burn-in-playlist from Spotify when I go to bed (includes music, pink noise, white noise, and digital black) -- It's a 101 hour playlist!!

2. I power down the amp in the morning before going to work to let the tube cool off and thermal cycle **

3. When I get home (and on weekends) I listen for a couple of hours to see what differences I may hear. If it sounds good I keep listening and start back at #1. when bedtime arrives. 

4. If it sounds crappy, I roll it out and roll in a nice already burned-in tube to enjoy my music until bedtime and then roll the tube needing burn-in back in and go back to #1. 

** Thermal cycling is a step I was not doing previously and after it was suggested, I found it really helps speed up and nail the burn-in process._


----------



## chef8489

Where is the best place to purchase the Westinghouse tubes?


----------



## Ripper2860

I have had good luck with Brent Jesse at http://audiotubes.com.  I've also had luck on eBay although they are harder to find.

Things to look for/ask


Black Staggered plates
Top D getter (there are Round Halo getter versions  -- these are not the same)
'Reliatron Tube' labeled is desired (some are labeled 'Electronic Tube'), although the jury is still out as to whether it really matters.  I have both and they sure sound the same to me.
They can come in a medium or short bottle -- doesn't matter.

You'll have to e-mail Brent as the WH are not listed on his site.  You may also want to e-mail Mike at http://www.vacuumtubes.com/ and see if he has any.

Good luck!!


----------



## Wes S

I just bought 3 from tube world express.  He has one more D getter, westinghouse 6sn7gta.


----------



## ProfFalkin

My tube burn in process:

Clean pins.  Insert tube into amp.  Listen to music.  

It's terribly complex, I know.


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> Ooops.  I posted the below in another thread by mistake (Schiit Happened), but I meant to post here.  This is a tube rolling thread, after-all.  There's already a couple of responses in the other thread so I don't want to delete it form there, so sorry for the x-post.  Anyhow, it really belongs here, so...
> 
> _Just out of curiosity -- what is your tube burn-in process? I'd love to hear from others as to their process and what works or doesn't work for them. I think it'd be 'cool' (pun intended) to see what process others use to burn-in and get the most out of their tubes. Here's my general process (typically run over 5-7 days)...
> 
> ...



OK, one more time ...(cuts and pastes)
I like 3 x 16hr days using P.A.D. system enhancer CD, with 8 hours off / cool down, at night. 
I give it a roughly 1 to 2 hour listen each day.
On the 4th day if I don't like what I hear I may go another 3 x 16 if I've read that "Something wonderful is about to happen", "What HAL?" at 100 hours.
If I don't like what I hear at that point it goes to my bottom of barrel box(?).
Any tube that "requires" over 100 hours is out of the question, life's too short.

Generally 50 hours tells me all I need to know.


----------



## FLTWS

High marks for Brent Jesse, haven't gotten a bad sounding tube from him yet.


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> My tube burn in process:
> 
> Clean pins.  Insert tube into amp.  Listen to music.
> 
> It's terribly complex, I know.



LOL, what no process, no ceremony? Where's the drama in that?


----------



## chef8489

So what tubes would say are a must? I am using LCD2C.


----------



## Wes S

chef8489 said:


> So what tubes would say are a must? I am using LCD2C.


Kenrad and Westinghouse.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 29, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> My tube burn in process:
> 
> Clean pins.  Insert tube into amp.  Listen to music.
> 
> It's terribly complex, I know.



Yawn.  So boring ... 




FLTWS said:


> OK, one more time ...(cuts and pastes)
> I like 3 x 16hr days using P.A.D. system enhancer CD, with 8 hours off / cool down, at night.
> I give it a roughly 1 to 2 hour listen each day.
> On the 4th day if I don't like what I hear I may go another 3 x 16 if I've read that "Something wonderful is about to happen", "What HAL?" at 100 hours.
> ...



Yeah.  Sorry about that.  Thanks!!​

Oh, forgot to mention a few interim steps …

 + I formally introduce the new tube to all of the other tubes -- Ken meet Wes.  Wes this is Ken, etc.
 + As I remove the previous tube from my Lyr 3, I console and reassure it that it has done a fabulous job and it is just receiving a well deserved rest.

I think that about covers it.


----------



## Wes S

Correction - I just changed my order to 2 westinghouse d getters from Brandon at Tube World Express, so he has  2, D -Getter Westinghouse tubes, a 6sn7gtb and a 6sn7gta.  I felt bad for buying them all, so I left a couple for someone else.


----------



## Ripper2860

That's very unselfish of you!!


----------



## Wes S (Jun 29, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> That's very unselfish of you!!


I figured that with all my Ken-Rad's and my soon to have Westinghouse's.  I am set for life!  I also learned from a previous mistake of buying way to many RCA grey glass.  The RCA's don't sound good with my Alpha Primes.


----------



## chef8489

Wes S said:


> I figured that with all my Ken-Rad's and my soon to have Westinghouse's.  I am set for life!  I also learned from a previous mistake of buying way to many RCA grey glass.  The RCA's don't sound good with my Alpha Primes.


How many grey glass do you have?


----------



## ProfFalkin

Probably all of them.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 29, 2018)

chef8489 said:


> How many grey glass do you have?


11 

I only paid a premium for 3 of them, and the rest I got for under $50 each.

I really thought this was the tube. . .then the KenRad burned in.


----------



## FLTWS (Jun 29, 2018)

Whether its amps, tubes, cables, phones, speakers, source players, or source recordings, we're never done. 48 years at this and still no end in sight for me!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 29, 2018)

OMG!!!  I'm sorry.  You must have felt pretty strongly that they were THE TUBE for you.  Well,  sometimes like a marriage, it just doesn't work out no matter how badly one wants it to.


----------



## iamjaymo

ProfFalkin said:


> My tube burn in process:
> 
> Clean pins.  Insert tube into amp.  Listen to music.
> 
> It's terribly complex, I know.



That’s what I do... I usually listen for at least week before swapping out a tube for as much as my “brain burnin” process.


----------



## chef8489

Wes S said:


> 11
> 
> I only paid a premium for 3 of them, and the rest I got for under $50 each.
> 
> I really thought this was the tube. . .then the KenRad burned in.


Well if you need to get rid of one.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 29, 2018)

chef8489 said:


> Well if you need to get rid of one.


You will be the first to know, if I do decide to sell any.  I still have a few more headphone purchases in my future, that might work well with this tube.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 29, 2018)

OK -- I have to vent ...

Ordered 2x WH D getter tubes from Brent Jesse and received a USPS text notice today that they were delivered at 1:34pm and in the mailbox.  We got our mail today at 11:28am -- a Massdrop package and junk mail, but what the heck, let me go check again...

THEY ARE NOT IN THE MAILBOX!!  NOTHING. ZIP. ZERO. NADA!!  I hate USPS!!!    

Now back to your regularly scheduled program ...


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> OK -- I have to vent ...
> 
> Ordered 2x WH D getter tubes from Brent Jesse and received a USPS text notice notice today that they were delivered at 1:34pm and in the mailbox.  We got our mail today at 11:28am -- a Massdrop package and junk mail, but what the heck, let me go check again...
> 
> ...


Oh my!  I feel for ya!  I am not a fan of USPS.


----------



## ProfFalkin

There is a full class I teach on this at the University of HK.


----------



## Ripper2860

Is it available online? I'd also like to take your pin cleaning class.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 29, 2018)

I've already done a welfare check on the neighbors and no-go on the package.  It's either misdelivered in another neighborhood since it shows delivered 2 hours after they ran through our neighborhood, or the mail person left it on the truck, later found it and marked it as delivered (bonus metric?).  Hopefully I will get it tomorrow.  Won't be the first time something was marked as delivered and then showed up a day or two later.

It was the last 2 WH D getters Brent Jesse had in stock.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 29, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Hoarder.











bcowen said:


> Aw, c'mon @Ripper2860. Everyone knows how to clean pins. All you need is a Dremel or similar high speed/high torque rotary tool, some 1/4" or 3/32" felt wheels, jeweler's rouge (white and red), Caig Deoxit (5% solution is good enough), 91% or 93% isopropyl alcohol (_not_ rubbing alcohol), masking tape, Q-tips (or any good quality pure cotton swab), some high quality cotton pipe cleaners (optional), a 25x wide angle magnifying glass, and approximately 30 minutes of free time for each tube. It's so easy even a caveman could do it.



So a serrated butter knife, steel wool, and paint thinner are a no-go, then?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

sub'd, you guys crack me up.  

Having read through 27 pages over the past couple nights I feel I've earned the opportunity to ask a few questions.  For now thought, I'll enjoy the stock TS.  In a few days I have a couple Raytheons the seller sent along with the lyr3 I bought off him - figure I'll give those a good burn and the ole college try.  Then I will commence with being the biggest PITA yet to post on this thread.  

And as usual, I'm one of the last to get in on the good times - literally my fist tube amp.  Your pity isn't required, but always appreciated.  Thanks


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 30, 2018)

Welcome and congrats on your Lyr 3 acquisition.  Also -- let me be the first to offer my condolences, as you are destined to fall victim to tube-rolling. Here, you will find may who share that affliction and are ready to help further accelerate your downward spiral into tube OCD.  After-all, misery loves company and we are ready and willing to add to our number!  

Seriously -- you have found a great place with folks that are always willing to help and share their experience.  It's a fun and knowledgeable group that is willing and able to help guide you through the the process of getting the most from the Lyr 3 while having fun doing it!!

Cheers and Welcome!!


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Aw, c'mon @Ripper2860. Everyone knows how to clean pins. All you need is a Dremel or similar high speed/high torque rotary tool, some 1/4" or 3/32" felt wheels, jeweler's rouge (white and red), Caig Deoxit (5% solution is good enough), 91% or 93% isopropyl alcohol (_not_ rubbing alcohol), masking tape, Q-tips (or any good quality pure cotton swab), some high quality cotton pipe cleaners (optional), a 25x wide angle magnifying glass, and approximately 30 minutes of free time for each tube. It's so easy even a caveman could do it.



You get an A.



Ripper2860 said:


> So a serrated butter knife, steel wool, and paint thinner are a no-go, then?



Fail.  

In fact, detention for you.  I hope you like summer school.


----------



## FLTWS

I live in a very small community with no mail delivery so I rent a box at the USPS. I've never (knocking on my wood table as I type this) had an issue and they keep things safely for me until I go there to pick up my mail.


----------



## Ripper2860

ProfFalkin said:


> You get an A.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How about some extra credit work?  I can wash the blackboard and beat the erasers, etc. I can run off copies of the test on the mimeograph machine or man the projector.  


That damn teacher's pet, @bcowen  -- he ruins it for everyone.  ​


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 30, 2018)

Not the dreaded Punch cards!!!  I'm so glad technology advanced to the point where my first personal computer could fit in a house ...






And the obligatory high capacity storage sub-system ...






I won't even get into the 300 baud acoustic coupled modem ...   



bcowen said:


> Mimeograph? ROFL!! You're announcing your age without announcing it.



Hey, there was always a line of students wanting to use the mimeograph machine to run off tests -- for various reasons ...

1. Seems someone always left a copy of a test behind that could be used as a helpful study guide by students willing to remunerate the person in possession of said study guide. (not that I ever did that)

2. Being in a room with the mimeograph fluid was akin to glue sniffing, before before it was known to be bad for you. (not that I ever did that)

OK -- Sorry folks.  Seems I have helped veer us off topic.  Although, it is a nice history lesson for the young whipper-snappers!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> ...  I can wash the blackboard and beat the erasers, etc. I can run off copies of the test on the mimeograph machine or man the projector.



LOL, I suspect they don't use that stuff anymore. 
"You read them silently on your PC screen while I read them aloud!"


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Not the dreaded Punch cards!!!  I'm so glad technology advanced to the point where my first personal computer could fit in a house ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OMG!!! That was my first PC, too 
Wow - that was 35 years ago. I really liked my TI-99 with extended basic module


----------



## buonassi

Ripper2860 said:


> Things to look for/ask
> 
> 
> Black Staggered plates
> ...



For the westinghouse folks seem to be liking, can you elaborate on "staggered plates"?  I can see the D getter here (I think - there's NOT a halo getter from what I can tell), but the plates look parallel to one another.  Again, I'm a newb, so thanks in advance.  Also, you were correct - I'm going down the rabbit hole of finding the perfect tube.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 30, 2018)

That looks like the one.. 

Staggered would be one black plate slightly in front of the other or one slightly offset depending on how you look at the tube.


----------



## buonassi

bcowen said:


> 4) The stock TS is a pretty decent tube. No real _need_ to climb into the rabbit hole, but then needs are mostly irrelevant.


yea man!  totally agree.  If only the slight metallic/splashy treble was more "in check" it would be absolutely perfect for me!  I need to emphasize slight here.  But slight can be a deal breaker.  I've gone through great lengths to assemble a chain that is NOT digital sounding in the least - tonality as well as transient response.  Adding back in the slight splash bugs me a bit.


----------



## FLTWS

Do the pins at the top ends of the plates form a rectangle (as would be viewed from above) or a parallelogram? 






Which would make the plates staggered.


----------



## buonassi (Jun 30, 2018)

well - I ordered these hoping that the D getter is the coveted westinghouse talked about in this thread

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Westinghouse-6SN7GTB-Vintage-Tube-Black-Plates-Top-O-D-Getter-VERY-GOOD/223016744878?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Also, for the heck of it, I ordered one of these  - it's a fairly expensive shot in the dark, but whatever.  Found a head-fier that listed one for $60, very low hours.  Figure I can sell it for $45 quickly if I don't like it:

https://www.thetubestore.com/northern-electric-6sn7?page=1


----------



## ProfFalkin

buonassi said:


> well - I ordered these hoping that the D getter is the coveted westinghouse talked about in this thread
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Westinghouse-6SN7GTB-Vintage-Tube-Black-Plates-Top-O-D-Getter-VERY-GOOD/223016744878?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> ...


The eBay one, the right tube is indeed a D getter WH tube we all seem to like so much.   The left one I have not heard.

As for the NE 6SN7, I recall trying those on my Felix Elise, but I have no clue how they will sound on the Lyr3.  I seem to remember they took forever to break in.  Let us know what you think of those, you may be the first one here to try it.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

for sure, I'll keep in touch and share impressions.  I'll have impressions on both stock tubes (russion NOS and new TS) as well as Raytheon 6sn7tgb ("g18" lettering, flat black parallel plates, halo getter, spiked almost-round micas).  Pics of all tubes to accompany official impressions - or I can attach them easily at any time upon request.

Quick question - for burn in of tubes - must I actually feed Lyr a signal from my DAC?  Or is it sufficient to leave the amp on without playing music, which continues to heat the tube?  Forgive me, I'm sure this was touched on previously in the thread, but I can't seem to find those related posts via search or if there was a reason given promoting music vs simple heat burn in.  Both are voltage heating up the tube, so I'd ASSume just leaving the amp on is good enough.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

bcowen said:


> How much play time do you have on the tube? The TS I got from Schitt didn't take an inordinate amount of time to break in, but I remember it being rather hashy in the treble until it had around 25 hours on it. Smoothed out pretty nicely after that.



oh it's got at least 25 hours on it.  The guy I bought it from used that tube mainly for two months and I've put at least 10 hours on it myself with zero noticeable change. It really is not bad at all - pretty darn good all around.  I rather enjoy its detailed presentation - the resolution is very good on it.  And I really do mean slight treble splash as a high-standard critique.  For most genres, this actually works well as it gives some excitement to the presence/sibilance region (without actually being sibilant - a small miracle btw).  But for cymbal heavy metal/rock, can start etch at you a bit.  Not fatigue you.  It's not overly harsh.  You can just tell it's there - kind of one small range of frequencies that keeps singing to you above the others.  This does affect treble decay a bit.  But the tradeoff is worth it, because the other pros it presents outweigh the slight treble zing. 

Man I'm going to great lengths trying to defend this tube because it really is good.  I'm just a super critical person by nature.  Better to take it out on vacuum tubes than people!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 30, 2018)

Well, I received my 2x WH D getters from Bent Jesse today!! Lo-and-Behold they were in today's mail despite showing as delivered yesterday (they were NOT).  I guess I have a daily package limit with USPS.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jun 30, 2018)

buonassi said:


> Quick question - for burn in of tubes - must I actually feed Lyr a signal from my DAC? Or is it sufficient to leave the amp on without playing music, which continues to heat the tube?


It's all voodoo and black magic man.  Do what you think is best.   Personally, I leave my DAC and PC on 24/7 anyway, so I just play music through it.  I usually hook up an old pair of headphones just so the amp is outputting something during the process and my Eikons don't see excessive play time.

You probably don't need to get fancy with it.

Edit:  I'm not sure if aging only the heater element is what settles the sound in (I suspect not), or if aging the cathode / anode / whatever else is the key.  As such, I try to burn mine in as it would if it were used normally.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 30, 2018)

buonassi said:


> well - I ordered these hoping that the D getter is the coveted westinghouse talked about in this thread
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Westinghouse-6SN7GTB-Vintage-Tube-Black-Plates-Top-O-D-Getter-VERY-GOOD/223016744878?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> ...


Here's a pic of WH Staggered plates.  If you look closely one plate is slightly in front of the other.  They remain parallel to each other but one is shifted slightly forward (or back).

BTW -- the plates are black, but the flash on my phone made them look gray.  Also -- these are the 'short bottle' version.  The taller bottle WH D getters are the same according to Brent Jesse.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 30, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Hoarder.








You have pegged the Hypocrisy meter ...


----------



## ProfFalkin

Oh shoot, that dial goes to 11.   Damn.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 30, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Nice pics!



I wanted to post up pics because these are top getter units and sometimes the flashing makes it difficult to get a birds-eye view of the top mica.

The Samsung S9+ camera really isn't too shabby.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jun 30, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Edit: Image uploading challenged hoarder.


I found some tubes for you.

(Adapters not included.)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> But wait...current bid at $407? I would _never _spend that much on tubes.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

iamjaymo said:


> Kudos Professor!


...a tube amp made out of coconuts, perhaps?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 1, 2018)

I hope the Coronado does well for you.  I have a tube identical to the WH Electronic Tube (non-Reliatron) and have not really noticed a whimpy bottom-end on it.  Pretty much on par with the short bottle and medium bottle Relitrons I own.  I say pretty much only to give me and my non-calibrated ears some wiggle room.  If you won't hold me to it...

...mine sound identical.


----------



## buonassi

bcowen said:


> The Foton gets the driver's seat for metal



and just like that, I now must hear this Foton.  I think you feel me bro - for metal, the treble has to be perfect with all that cymbal work and mesa/marshall/laney scream!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> The best ones (to my ear) are the ribbed plate early 50's versions. The non-ribbed late 50's are very good too, but not quite as good. The 60's are a step down from both.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8...173507?hash=item238a3dfc83:g:xmAAAOSwjpRavJ8e
> 
> I've bought several from the seller linked above with no issues. Be prepared for a 100 hour break-in routine though. The sound will be pretty thin, screechy, and bass-less initially, then improve quite a bit, then reverse course and sound hashy and coarse, then start to sound really good for a while, then go to crap again. Seems that once the 100 hour threshold is crossed they stabilize and continue to sound good.


How would you compare them to the KR-V231 ?
JUST got one of those today, and will start burn-in later or tomorrow...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 1, 2018)

I'll let @bcowen elaborate, but I can tell you that I love my KR's (I have 2), but the 50's Foton ribbed plate tube (I have 8) sees much more time in my Lyr 3. The KRs are a bit smoother and a tad more refined, but for me the Foton's mids and treble are just a smidgen better suited to my listening preferences.  And they are a bargain.  Suffice it to say, you will likely not regret them...

...now that he's let the cat out of the bag as to our source.  

It really depends on your preferences and your HP sound profile.  

BTW -- breaking-in the Fotons is the most excruciating, torturous process imaginable.  But once you've suffered through it, the pay-off makes it well worth it.

J/K about revealing our source.    But not about the break-in!!


----------



## buonassi

bcowen said:


> I've bought several from the seller linked above with no issues.


This exact listing.....I literally had them marinating in my shopping cart hours ago, just haven't hit check out.



Ripper2860 said:


> ...now that he's let the cat out of the bag as to our source.



yes, thank you @bcowen for falling on the sword here.  I would've undoubtedly shared the good news (on my own) and been the leak.  you spared me!  

On another note - the stock TS is really growing on me.  I wonder if it's possible that it goes through a roller coaster ride like the fotons, and my earlier impressions of the treble were based on a 'bad period'?  And honestly, sometimes my ears/brain just aren't in the analytical mood, or I'm more tolerant of slight tonal offsets because I'm just feeling good.  It really is hard to keep all variables in check and constant when comparing and analyzing sonic differences.  I also seem to find 'something' to like in every tube ive tried so far.  This is probably because I'm a tewb newb and experiencing shiny new toy syndrome.  But bear with me, and I'll happily continue to contribute.  This really is fun.


----------



## buonassi

we'll all be 'headphoneus supremus' by the time I get these burned in - Holy $#!!!!!

Your order was placed.
Estimated delivery: Aug 8 – 22


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> It really depends on your preferences and your HP sound profile.
> 
> BTW -- breaking-in the Fotons is the most excruciating, torturous process imaginable. But once you've suffered through it, the pay-off makes it well worth it.


As for sound signature preference - I usually lean towards warm & smooth sound signature, with bass emphasis... My favorite headphones are either bassy (like ZMF Atticus) or neutral but warm(ish) like Mr. Speakers AFC. I am mentioning it because you mentioned that it depends on my preference and HP sound profile. PLEASE elaborate if you do not mind 

As for burn-in for those, being "excruciating & torturous" - do you just refer to longer burn-in? or are there any "special instructions"?!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 1, 2018)

buonassi said:


> we'll all be 'headphoneus supremus' by the time I get these burned in - Holy $#!!!!!
> 
> Your order was placed.
> Estimated delivery: Aug 8 – 22


​
If it's like mine, it'll get here sooner than that.  Give it 3-weeks.  I ordered on June 2nd and received them on June 19th.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 1, 2018)

Zachik said:


> As for sound signature preference - I usually lean towards warm & smooth sound signature, with bass emphasis... My favorite headphones are either bassy (like ZMF Atticus) or neutral but warm(ish) like Mr. Speakers AFC. I am mentioning it because you mentioned that it depends on my preference and HP sound profile. PLEASE elaborate if you do not mind
> 
> As for burn-in for those, being "excruciating & torturous" - do you just refer to longer burn-in? or are there any "special instructions"?!



I think the KR has a tad warmer sound as its bass has a bit of bloom in the upper regions.  The mids are slightly more recessed giving it a bit warmer sound.  The Foton has an equally extended bass, but has more of a bass punch, as opposed to KR's bloom/warmth.  Again -- this is all my take on them with my ears and my headphones.  They are very much more similar than they are different.  To me, they sound a touch better in the mids, again due to  a slight increased presence, but I listen to a lot of Jazz and Vocals.

As for burn-in/break-in …   Time.  60-100 hours and it will take on a different personality multiple times during the process.  It will alternate between good, terrible, and awesome multiple times during the process.  Just be patient.

At the price of the Foton -- you should really give it a try.


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> I think the KR has a tad warmer sound as its bass has a bit of bloom in the upper regions.  The mids are slightly more recessed giving it a bit warmer sound.  The Foton has an equally extended bass, but has more of a bass punch, as opposed to KR's bloom/warmth.  Again -- this is all my take on them with my ears and my headphones.  They are very much more similar than they are different.  To me, they sound a touch better in the mids, again due to  a slight increased presence, but I listen to a lot of Jazz and Vocals.
> 
> As for burn-in/break-in …   Time.  60-100 hours and it will take on a different personality multiple times during the process.  It will alternate between good, terrible, and awesome multiple times during the process.  Just be patient.
> 
> At the price of the Foton -- you should really give it a try.



You make an excellent point with the "my headphones" comment. It's difficult to predict how all the different elements in one's hardware chain will mesh to provide a sound profile, with the transducers being, in my estimation, always the biggest variable. Coming to a conclusion on the sound of any one element in the chain can vary greatly depending on whether I'm referring to my Abyss, Utopia, or HD800. Some things work well together, some do not.

Anyway, just ordered 2 Fotons, (dammit, got get off this tube-go-round, no more tubes!).


----------



## Wes S (Jul 2, 2018)

bcowen said:


> The tale of 2 Westinghouses. The first one I tried (on the left) met all the parameters....except one. Staggered black ladder plates, top D getter, but missing the Reliatron label. Gave it plenty of time to break in, and just couldn't like it no matter how hard I tried. Bass is really weak, but more than that there is just no slam or dynamic impact at all. Mids and treble are fine, but without the whomp down low, my usual diet of metal is underserved badly. Enter the shorter bottle one in the middle. Now all the parameters are there, including the Reliatron label. After about 48 hours of break-in, I now get what all the fuss is about -- this tube sounds marvelous!  Not only is the bass there, it's better than the Foton. The Foton still gets the nod in the treble where it plays anything you throw at it without a hint of edge or glare, and it has that rhythmic quality to it that I haven't yet found in any other tube. The WH certainly isn't fatiguing, but is less tolerant of marginal recordings with any treble sizzle. Both the WH and Foton get top spots in my pecking order, and as the WH offers up more harmonic content in the mids, it's the go-to tube for classical and blues. The Foton gets the driver's seat for metal. And for anyone looking for a great all-around tube for the Lyr 3, the WH is definitely worth pursuing. Just be sure you get a tube that meets ALL the requirements.
> 
> Final note: the bass is so wimpy in the non-Reliatron tube that I'm thinking something is wrong with the tube itself. It tests fine on the tester, but that's only part of the story. I'll give the Coronado labeled one a try shortly and see how it does as the internal construction is identical to the non-Reliatron.


So looking at your picks, the 2 westinghouse d getters, i have being delivered today, have Reliatron written on them, but they have slightly different looking mica spacers.  The 2 I have coming from 59' have the bottom mica that looks like the middle one's mica in your picture, but the top mica looks like the mica's on the one on the left.  I am noticing by looking at a lot of pictures, that a change happened right around 1960, with the construction (halo getter and mica spaces with less spikes on the outer edges) and wording on tube (reliatron or electronic), so it could be hit or miss around 59'?


----------



## Ripper2860

FLTWS said:


> Anyway, just ordered 2 Fotons, (dammit, got get off this tube-go-round, no more tubes!)



I don't think you'll  regret the purchase.  If it does not become your favorite tube, it will likely be a very close 2nd or 3rd.  There's not really anything to dislike about these Fotons.

As for getting off the tube-go-round … Good Luck!!


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> The tale of 2 Westinghouses. The first one I tried (on the left) met all the parameters....except one. Staggered black ladder plates, top D getter, but missing the Reliatron label. Gave it plenty of time to break in, and just couldn't like it no matter how hard I tried. Bass is really weak, but more than that there is just no slam or dynamic impact at all. Mids and treble are fine, but without the whomp down low, my usual diet of metal is underserved badly. Enter the shorter bottle one in the middle. Now all the parameters are there, including the Reliatron label. After about 48 hours of break-in, I now get what all the fuss is about -- this tube sounds marvelous!  Not only is the bass there, it's better than the Foton. The Foton still gets the nod in the treble where it plays anything you throw at it without a hint of edge or glare, and it has that rhythmic quality to it that I haven't yet found in any other tube. The WH certainly isn't fatiguing, but is less tolerant of marginal recordings with any treble sizzle. Both the WH and Foton get top spots in my pecking order, and as the WH offers up more harmonic content in the mids, it's the go-to tube for classical and blues. The Foton gets the driver's seat for metal. And for anyone looking for a great all-around tube for the Lyr 3, the WH is definitely worth pursuing. Just be sure you get a tube that meets ALL the requirements.
> 
> Final note: the bass is so wimpy in the non-Reliatron tube that I'm thinking something is wrong with the tube itself. It tests fine on the tester, but that's only part of the story. I'll give the Coronado labeled one a try shortly and see how it does as the internal construction is identical to the non-Reliatron.



Interesting, my non-Reliatron is a tall tube too but has the "Halo" getter, not "D". And the labeling appears identical except the numbers are "337 Made in USA 62-13".
I haven't yet got to a listen-off between my 2 WH's.


----------



## skyline315

I should have a Psvane UK-6SN7 arriving sometime this week.  I got a really good deal on a used single tube ($25), so I couldn't pass it up.  

http://www.psvaneaudio.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=97

If nothing else, it'll look cool.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 2, 2018)

FLTWS said:


> Interesting, my non-Reliatron is a tall tube too but has the "Halo" getter, not "D". And the labeling appears identical except the numbers are "337 Made in USA 62-13".
> I haven't yet got to a listen-off between my 2 WH's.



Just for reference and comparison, here are the 3 tall WH D getters I own.  1x Electronic Tube and 2x Reliatron.  The tube on the left is a 9R52 code.  Assuming 9 stands for 195*9*, then all these tubes are 1959.  All are 337.  I also have 2x short bottle Reliatron D getters w/ code 7R (not pictured).  If you need pics of a short bottle for reference, let me know.

BTW -- I've been listening to the middle non-Reliatron for close to 2-days and really cannot tell a difference between it and the Reliatrons.  (Could be me, however.)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> I think the KR has a tad warmer sound as its bass has a bit of bloom in the upper regions.  The mids are slightly more recessed giving it a bit warmer sound.  The Foton has an equally extended bass, but has more of a bass punch, as opposed to KR's bloom/warmth.  Again -- this is all my take on them with my ears and my headphones.  They are very much more similar than they are different.  To me, they sound a touch better in the mids, again due to  a slight increased presence, but I listen to a lot of Jazz and Vocals.
> 
> As for burn-in/break-in …   Time.  60-100 hours and it will take on a different personality multiple times during the process.  It will alternate between good, terrible, and awesome multiple times during the process.  Just be patient.
> 
> At the price of the Foton -- you should really give it a try.





FLTWS said:


> Anyway, just ordered 2 Fotons, (dammit, got get off this tube-go-round, no more tubes!).





bcowen said:


> I think @Ripper2860 described it pretty well a few posts forward.  Refinement.  The KR has more to offer in the mids with more harmonic info and has a little more air and space up top.  More of the recording venue acoustic. Good bass, but not necessarily powerful.  The Foton is the party animal tube - although not the most extended tube I've tried bass-wise, it has some nice whomp in the mid-bass. Not overblown, just nice impact. And it has the nicest, friendliest treble of any tube I've tried, without sounding closed-in or rolled off.  The KR is the tube you listen to while drinking hot English tea from a demitasse cup with your pinky in the air, donned (of course) in your smoking jacket. The Foton is a case of Pabst Blue Ribbon, straight from the can.
> 
> Ridiculousness aside, there's something about the Foton that keeps bringing me back to it. I hate to invoke the old and worn out PRaT (pace, rhythm and timing) descriptor, but I don't know how better to express it. I think it has to do with dynamics, and more specifically the microdynamics. I just get really involved with the music when it's in the Lyr, and more so than any other tube I've tried so far. Toe tap, goosebumps, air guitar riffs, listening for hours past when I should have gone to bed, etc.  But what gets my toe tapping is obviously not a universal thing. It's a synergy more than anything with my tastes, my 'phones, and the fact that I actually like Pabst.



Sigh. Will order some Fotons from Russia. 
Still had no time to start burn-in of the VT-231 and Sylvania Bad Boy that I got in the mail yesterday   Probably only get to it on July 4th...


----------



## ProfFalkin

Zachik said:


> Sigh. Will order some Fotons from Russia.
> Still had no time to start burn-in of the VT-231 and Sylvania Bad Boy that I got in the mail yesterday   Probably only get to it on July 4th...


No rush.  Burn one in, listen, compare.  If you find one you really like, just hang out there.  The Russian Fotons will be there later.  They only made millions of them.


----------



## Ripper2860

> The KR is the tube you listen to while drinking hot English tea from a demitasse cup with your pinky in the air, donned (of course) in your smoking jacket. The Foton is a case of Pabst Blue Ribbon, straight from the can.



I'm afraid that what @bcowen posted may be perceived as the Fotons only sound good when one is drunk on cheap beer.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The KR is Caviar, while the Foton is Pork Rinds.   Both have their place in the gastronomical spectrum of tastes and each is delicious given the right time and place.


----------



## FLTWS

skyline315 said: ↑
I should have a Psvane UK-6SN7 arriving sometime this week. I got a really good deal on a used single tube ($25), so I couldn't pass it up.

http://www.psvaneaudio.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=97

If nothing else, it'll look cool.



bcowen said:


> Be very interested in your thoughts on that when you get it. I've looked at them several times, but never made the purchase.



Ditto!
I also put my e-addy in should this;
https://www.thetubestore.com/northern-electric-6sn7?page=1
comes back into stock.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm curious as to whether it will fit without a socket saver given the slight bulge of the glass base and the recessed Lyr 3 tube socket.  Even if it doesn't, well worth $8.00 for a socket saver to raise the tube.


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm curious as to whether it will fit without a socket saver given the slight bulge of the glass base and the recessed Lyr 3 tube socket.  Even if it doesn't, well worth $8.00 for a socket saver to raise the tube.



I agree.
On a WH "Halo" side note; I can't tell if the pins diameters are a very slightly less or not with this particular tube, but it slides in and out of the socket like it was greased. Everyone of the 12 others types I have, including the Reliatron WH, are quite snug by comparison.


----------



## Ripper2860

Strange.  I've not experienced that with any tube.  Sure some are bit tighter than others, but none are what I would call loose.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Are you suggesting there's some other form of existence?
> 
> Who knew...



I plead the 5th.  



bcowen said:


> Yeah, and it's not like I have _all _of them. But watch out for @Ripper2860...



Once again -- I plead the 5th.


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> Strange.  I've not experienced that with any tube.  Sure some are bit tighter than others, but none are what I would call loose.



Not lose, it doesn't wiggle and is firmly seated, but the lack of resistance to pushing in or pulling out was unlike any other in my experience.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 2, 2018)

That actually sounds like a good thing, assuming that it is making good electrical contact.  Seems like less stress on the socket when inserting and removing.  I don't have any WH halo getters -- do you have another halo to compare to?

BTW -- How does halo sound compared to D getter?


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm afraid that what @bcowen posted may be perceived as the Fotons only sound good when one is drunk on cheap beer.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The KR is Caviar, while the Foton is Pork Rinds.   Both have their place in the gastronomical spectrum of tastes and each is delicious given the right time and place.


I am sooooo hungry (and crave for beer) !!!
You guys are impossible


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> BTW -- How does halo sound compared to D getter?


This is the burning question on my mind.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Zachik said:


> I am sooooo hungry (and crave for beer) !!!
> You guys are impossible


Beer.   Meh.

I'll take two fingers and a single ice cube of this fine spirit, and call it good.


----------



## Ripper2860

And I'll take what's left.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> And I'll take what's left.


Hoarder.


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## Ripper2860 (Jul 2, 2018)

Waste not.  Want not.


----------



## Zachik

ProfFalkin said:


> Beer.   Meh.
> 
> I'll take two fingers and a single ice cube of this fine spirit, and call it good.


You have good taste my friend. I love Macallan 12 single malt....


----------



## buonassi

caenlenfromOCN said:


> Does anyone agree with me that the tung-sol the Lyr 3 comes with sounds lifeless? I would like to try the stock Russian NOS the Lyr 3 comes with, does anyone want to trade my Tung-Sol for the stock Russian Lyr 3 tube?


stock Russian isn't bad - I like the treble cleanliness.  I'd take you up on the trade as I like the TS better, but I can't give you, in good faith, a tube that is microphonic!  The left channel of my stock Russian puts out a nasty thump if I tap anywhere in the vicinity of the amp.  To the point I can hear its slight droning as I turn the pot.  It doesn't seem to do anything if perfectly still and just playing music.


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 3, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> That actually sounds like a good thing, assuming that it is making good electrical contact.  Seems like less stress on the socket when inserting and removing.  I don't have any WH halo getters -- do you have another halo to compare to?
> 
> BTW -- How does halo sound compared to D getter?



I only have the 1 "Halo" and I think Brent is out of them presently. Not a lot of difference in the sound so far between the "Halo" and  "D" getter and both sound fine.I will get back with specifics at a later date.

I've been doing a lot of A/B/C'ing with my top 3 phones the past week with both WH's that have over 50 hours a piece on them at this point. I've zero'd in on the different listening perspectives, or windows on the sound stage (head stage) each provides and what other sound characteristics differences there are, for me, over time.  As I acquired these phones some of these differences were not that easy to call (new toy syndrome combined with a lack of listening experience with a variety of music and use with different equipment).

But after 1 to 2 years of exposure with these phones the differences have become more readily apparent to me. I only got started with headphones in Jan of 2016 and didn't have a lot of past HP experience other than occasional listening to my Stax MKIII's and Lambda's in the 80's and 90's as I was listening to 2 channel 99%+ of my time - 4 decades worth of it - and lots of live concerts). So it's been a fun journey in a relatively short period of time.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Waste not.  Want not.


I was just giving you a hard time.   =P    It would be a waste not to share!  

I think I'll have to pick up a Foton.   Even though I'm 99% sure the WH-D is my end game tube for the Lyr, curious as I am I can't resist.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 3, 2018)

I know you were kidding.  So was I.  

At those prices, the Foton is well worth a try.  It's really all about your preferred sound signature and associated gear.  You may find it does not push the WH D getter out of first place or it just might.  Foton is a very good sounding tube once broken-in.   If not the top tube, I think you will find the Foton an excellent tube that warrants rolling in periodically as the music or your mood demands.  The WH D getter is definitely a very pleasant surprise and has my stamp of approval -- to the tune of 5 in my tube stable.   

Between WH D and Foton ribbed -- my other tubes see no time in my Lyr and are asking to be traded to another team.  (The KRs are locked into a long-term contract, however.)


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Ripper2860 said:


> I know you were kidding.  So was I.
> 
> At those prices, the Foton is well worth a try.  It's really all about your preferred sound signature and associated gear.  You may find it does not push the WH D getter out of first place or it just might.  Foton is a very good sounding tube once broken-in.   If not the top tube, I think you will find the Foton an excellent tube that warrants rolling in periodically as the music or your mood demands.  The WH D getter is definitely a very pleasant surprise and has my stamp of approval -- to the tune of 5 in my tube stable.
> 
> Between WH D and Foton ribbed -- my other tubes see no time in my Lyr and are asking to be traded to another team.  (The KRs are locked into a long-term contract, however.)




I'm most likely going to be selling my 3 ken rad black glas vt-231 soon... pretty happy with my sylvania bad boy, and I doubt it ever burns out on me.


----------



## Ripper2860

caenlenfromOCN said:


> I'm most likely going to be selling my 3 ken rad black glas vt-231 soon... pretty happy with my sylvania bad boy, and I doubt it ever burns out on me.



I'm glad you are happy with the 'Bad Boy'.  It's on my list.  Please PM me if you do end up selling your KR's.  I would love to own a KR black glass to go with the clear glass I already have.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 3, 2018)

buonassi said:


> stock Russian isn't bad - I like the treble cleanliness.  I'd take you up on the trade as I like the TS better, but I can't give you, in good faith, a tube that is microphonic!  The left channel of my stock Russian puts out a nasty thump if I tap anywhere in the vicinity of the amp.  To the point I can hear its slight droning as I turn the pot.  It doesn't seem to do anything if perfectly still and just playing music.


I have had a couple Ken-Rad's, that were microphonic, and returned them.  They don't ever get better


caenlenfromOCN said:


> I'm most likely going to be selling my 3 ken rad black glas vt-231 soon... pretty happy with my sylvania bad boy, and I doubt it ever burns out on me.


I would love to get some " bad boys ", but they are so hard to find I am going to pass on even trying them.  My fear is that I will love the "Bad Boy" tube, and not be able to find enough of them, to satisfy my tube cravings.   

caenlenfromOCN - What do you like more about the "bad boy" tube vs the KenRad black glass?


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Wes S said:


> I have had a couple Ken-Rad's, that were microphonic, and returned them.  They don't ever get better
> 
> I would love to get some " bad boys ", but they are so hard to find I am going to pass on even trying them.  My fear is that I will love the "Bad Boy" tube, and not be able to find enough of them, to satisfy my tube cravings.
> 
> caenlenfromOCN - What do you like more about the "bad boy" tube vs the KenRad black glass?




the bad boy sylvania has a very very smooth sound on vocals, like silk cloth floating on river... not muffled, just very silky, its hard to explain. the ken rad does not have that, but the ken rad does the bass better.  the bad boy does the bass great tho don't get me wrong. both of them stomp the living crap out of the stock russian and stock tung sol tube tho.


----------



## ilikepooters (Jul 3, 2018)

Found another great tube and this one is straight to the top of the list for me.

It's a Westinghouse 6SN7WGT (military spec) brown base with D getter, although i think it was made by someone else and rebranded.

Tube is neutral(ish) (maybe slight U shape) with a slight smidgen of recess to the mids, but the top end really sparkles, seems to have that last bit of detail and air i've been looking for, imaging and separation are also supreme. Bass is tight. This tube fits my setup perfectly. It's toe tappingly good.

Note the black plates (non staggered) and copper grid posts, also added mica supports typical of the WGT variant.






Completely round micas










Anyone have any ideas as to who made this tube? i'd like to get a couple more as back up


----------



## Ripper2860

Brown base tubes are typically Hytron tubes.  They made them for various MFG's.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 3, 2018)

The parallel plates resemble my CBS Hytron marketed by Zalytron. But mine is a short glass tube with solid, opaque coating on the top so I can't make out the getter. My micas are strange also, sort of square with rounded off corners. Mine is also designated 6SN7GTB.


----------



## ilikepooters (Jul 3, 2018)

These appear to be the same construction but horrendously expensive:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-JAN-CR...182848?hash=item285941e640:g:cJsAAOSw7Bda5~G6


And a Raytheon but can't tell if it's a D getter:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-VINTAG...999969&hash=item3fa3c99b21:g:3X0AAOSwzH5bN~gy


----------



## ProfFalkin

ilikepooters said:


> Found another great tube and this one is straight to the top of the list for me.
> 
> <snip>



Do you see any other letters / numbers on the tube at all?   Something like:   337, 312, 274, JAN-CHS, etc...


----------



## ProfFalkin

ilikepooters said:


> These appear to be the same construction but horrendously expensive:
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-JAN-CR...182848?hash=item285941e640:g:cJsAAOSw7Bda5~G6
> 
> ...


All of the links you gave are Raytheon tubes.  =)

JAN manufacturer abbreviations:
CHS – Sylvania
CHY – Hytron or CBS-Hytron
CKR – KenRad
CL – GE
CRC – RCA
CRP – Raytheon


----------



## Ripper2860

I already have an eBay search saved.  

The Hytron variants are a bit on the expensive side, however.


----------



## ilikepooters

ProfFalkin said:


> Do you see any other letters / numbers on the tube at all?   Something like:   337, 312, 274, JAN-CHS, etc...




Nah nothing else on there, if there were etchings on the glass they have long since been rubbed off.

Could likely be a Raytheon then judging by the others on eBay.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

caenlenfromOCN said:


> I'm most likely going to be selling my 3 ken rad black glas vt-231 soon... pretty happy with my sylvania bad boy, and I doubt it ever burns out on me.


...and I thought that you sold to me the only Sylvania bad boy you had...


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> This is a testament to how observant I'm not.  Haven't studied these closely, but from a quick gander they look pretty similar. Then again, with my observatory skills they might actually be 12AU7's.




Well if anyone was going to have a cache of these in their possession, it would be you.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Zachik said:


> ...and I thought that you sold to me the only Sylvania bad boy you had...




nope I have two, they are actually a matched pair, so if the Lyr 4 ever comes out and uses dual 6sn7, one of us is going to need to sell to the other LOL


----------



## buonassi

this appears to be one of the D getter westinghouse ,flat offset plates.  But I can't tell for sure as there's only one pic.  While I've got one on the way already, maybe this will help someone else, if it can be confirmed visually?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-NE...HYAAOSwwhhbOmzh:sc:USPSFirstClass!61550!US!-1


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 4, 2018)

It sure looks like the WH D getter we've been going on-and-on about.  Not 'Reliatron' labeled, but as I've stated previously, I have an 'Electronc Tube' labeled variant and it sounds identical to the Reliatron versions I have.  Mine is 337 and 9RXX labeled, however.  This one looks to have a different date code structure starting with 6, from the bit I can see.  It could be a 1956 or a 1960 year of mfg.  Maybe you can ask the seller to send more pics.


----------



## buonassi

Ripper2860 said:


> Maybe you can aske the seller to send more


I left him a message .will update when I hear back


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

To me it looks like a D or Box getter, but I'm over-due for new glasses.  If it is a 60's tube, then it likely is a Halo, but to me this picture is inconclusive as the camera flash on the getter likes like it could be a sharp bend of a D or perhaps just a halo.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Always fun to find stuff you didn't know you had. Or more accurately, find stuff that may have value that you'd previously dismissed as irrelevant.


Or you could just be …

A HOARDER!!!


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> To me it looks like a D or Box getter, but I'm over-due for new glasses.  If it is a 60's tube, then it likely is a Halo, but to me this picture is inconclusive as the camera flash on the getter likes like it could be a sharp bend of a D or perhaps just a halo.



Is that white wire rectangular shape the getter?






Never seen this in a tube before.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 4, 2018)

Yep.  That sure looks like a box or D getter to me.  Many tubes have a bottom getter and those can be obscured from view by the base or the flashing.  Some tubes have top getters and a significant amount of flashing making it so the getter is hard to see, as well.  There are even some tubes with a 'flying sauce' getter that looks like a UFO.


----------



## buonassi

bcowen said:


> If you zoom in on the photo it appears to be an O getter:



sure enough.... seller added three more pics and you can clearly see the O ring.  sorry for the false hope dudes.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 4, 2018)

Well, obviously @bcowen has Tube Super Powers!  I should know better than to 2nd guess the Tube Master!!


----------



## buonassi

Fun change of pace here guys:  in terms of sheer resolution - with the right tubes.  Compare Lyr 3 to the best solid state amp you've heard.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

Most excellent, educational, and helpful post @bcowen - I learned something today.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> Yes. And to be technically nit-picky, it's actually the getter _support_ (or holder). We all refer to it as the 'getter' for simplicity, but the getter itself is actually a mixture of gas-absorbing materials that are held in place by this support until vaporized during manufacture. Once the tube is put under vacuum and sealed off, a high frequency current is applied causing this material to vaporize (or 'flash') which subsequently leaves a deposit on the inside of the tube, known as the getter flash. This coating or deposit absorbs any leftover oxygen or other gases left inside the tube to create as perfect a vacuum as possible. The getter material is composed mostly of barium in audio tubes (leaving a silver coating when flashed), but some can use a higher percentage of aluminum in the mix leading to a black-er silvery deposit (Fotons are a good example). If you see a tube where this getter flash has turned gray or white and has lost reflectivity, it means air has entered the tube beyond the capacity of the getter material to absorb it (a leak) and the tube is no longer usable.
> Now back to your regularly scheduled programming, where we (including me) will continue to refer to the getter _support_ as the getter.



Thanks, I knew somebody would know what it was. Like they say at Faber,


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 4, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Yes. And to be technically nit-picky, it's actually the getter _support_ (or holder). We all refer to it as the 'getter' for simplicity, but the getter itself is actually a mixture of gas-absorbing materials that are held in place by this support until vaporized during manufacture. Once the tube is put under vacuum and sealed off, a high frequency current is applied causing this material to vaporize (or 'flash') which subsequently leaves a deposit on the inside of the tube, known as the getter flash. This coating or deposit absorbs any leftover oxygen or other gases left inside the tube to create as perfect a vacuum as possible. The getter material is composed mostly of barium in audio tubes (leaving a silver coating when flashed), but some can use a higher percentage of aluminum in the mix leading to a black-er silvery deposit (Fotons are a good example). If you see a tube where this getter flash has turned gray or white and has lost reflectivity, it means air has entered the tube beyond the capacity of the getter material to absorb it (a leak) and the tube is no longer usable.
> Now back to your regularly scheduled programming, where we (including me) will continue to refer to the getter _support_ as the getter.


​
And the Tube God has spoken.  

OK, seriously.  Thanks!!  That was actually pretty cool knowledge you threw down.  The inner-workings of a tube are quite a mystery to me and the searches typically return info. that is WMFCTISB (Way More Freakin' Complicated Than It Should Be).  *What I do know is tubes are cool and representative of an time BEFORE computers.  An era where engineers would envision something and bring the world electronic and mechanical marvels by working out incredibly complex issues using brain-power, pencils, paper and a freakin' slide-rule!!  *

 How awesome is that??!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

1st chink in the armor, Ted.


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 4, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> And the Tube God has spoken.
> 
> 
> OK, seriously.  That was actually pretty cool knowledge you laid-down.  The inner-workings of a tube are quite a mystery to me and the searches typically return info. that is WTFCTISB (Way Too Complicated Than It Should Be).  *What I do know is tubes are cool and presentative of an era in Technology BEFORE computers where engineers would envision something and bring the world electronic and mechanical marvels by working out incredibly complex issues using brain-power, pencils, paper and a freakin' slide-rule!!  nd design electronic and mechanical marvels!!*  How awesome is that??!!



Your right, tubes are interesting and transistors are boring, nothing to see, so, move along. Tubes have eye appeal, almost organic. A view of exposed transistors is right up there with paint drying and watching grass grow.

I remember seeing a segment of a weekly show ("How it's Made" I think was the title) that showed what goes into fabricating a tube. I'm sure there are probably some videos on the net about it as well.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Ditto.  That and 'The Right Stuff' makes me proud to be an American!!  

<cue the fireworks and Star Spangled Banner>


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 4, 2018)

bcowen said:


> That's the most, um,_ involved_ mica arrangement I've ever seen. Really interesting the way they did that. I'll look through my stash and see if I find anything like it, although I probably would have noticed it earlier if I had anything similar.  Thanks for the new killer tube alert! (I can already hear @Ripper2860 salivating).



Oh.  And I managed to find 2x Sylvania brown base WGTAs on Fleabay and I executed a purchase!!  I have no idea if they are the same, but I clicked on "Buy it Now" and the endorphin rush was awesome!!

Maybe I didn't do so bad.  From Brent Jesse site:



> _This type indicates a military spec tube that was not made for consumer use. These usually have extra support posts on the plate structure, heavy mica spacers, and brown micanol bases. These also have the famous triangular shaped black plates. They have been ruggedized to withstand shock, the brown low loss micanol base resists mold, mildew, and fungus growth, and they can withstand heat even if used upside down. The early Sylvania 6SN7W types from the 1940s had a metal collar around the base, then later a black base. These look internally alot like the early Sylvania GTA types listed above. Sylvania made these for other brands as well, including RCA. Easy to spot as they have the triangular blackplates facing each other in a short bottle, with a very heavy chrome top flashing extending down the sides of the tube. These are RARE and worth seeking out! The WGT and WGTA types all had brown bases. Only the WGTA types made in the late 70s and 80s reverted back to black bases then coin or wafer bases. These are all wonderful tubes, are long lived, and sound fantastic. No wonder they are fast disappearing from the vintage market._




Hi.  I'm Ripper and I'm a Tube Addict and a Hoarder…


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> I'm amazed every time I watch Apollo 13.  The army of engineers, all dressed in their white short-sleeve dress shirts (with pocket protectors) whipping out their slide rules to calculate new trajectories. Boggles the mind how we even got off the ground, let alone all the way to the moon (and back). Today, 90% of that army would be replaced by a $399 laptop from Amazon....



True, but today, when the power goes out, and the battery backups fail, whose going to be around with the knowledge to operate a slide-rule?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 4, 2018)

When the time comes, I'm sure there are YouTube videos showing how to use…

Oh.  OK.  I see what you mean now.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

You know that Lyr 3 is a Hybrid, right??


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

attention.  it is with a heavy heart and watery eyes that I report a deserter in our midst:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-...-sol-420-shipped-extra-tubes-for-sale.883476/

Just giving you crap @caenlenfromOCN - I'm sure there's a substantive reason behind the sale.  Would like to hear why you're moving on from Lyr3 already though?  Did you move up the chain already?


----------



## Ripper2860

Wow.  I just bought a Ken-Rad from him yesterday thinking he was just culling the tube herd.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

buonassi said:


> attention.  it is with a heavy heart and watery eyes that I report a deserter in our midst:
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-...-sol-420-shipped-extra-tubes-for-sale.883476/
> 
> Just giving you crap @caenlenfromOCN - I'm sure there's a substantive reason behind the sale.  Would like to hear why you're moving on from Lyr3 already though?  Did you move up the chain already?




Mostly I just need money for other stuff right now, and kind of bored of this hobby, nothing against it, its been a fun ride and I am sure I will return someday. I'm still debating if I should sell my Mimby or not.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Ripper2860 said:


> Ditto.  That and 'The Right Stuff' makes me proud to be an American!!
> 
> <cue the fireworks and Star Spangled Banner>


Oh yeah!? We Cannucks focus on the issues that matter. And focus on the tough questions...


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

bcowen said:


> Hoarder.




More like addiction problem.  ;p


----------



## Ripper2860

Yes and Yes.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Ripper2860 said:


> Yes and Yes.




I think all humans have a tendancy towards OCD on some things, for some people its sports, others its drugs, some its alcohol, some its smoking cigs, some its playing games, some its feeding their ego, for us... its headphones, amps, and dacs.... and TUBES   huhuhuhu


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 5, 2018)

Absolutely.  I have very few vices and as far as vices go, this one is rather harmless.  Believe me -- I have spent far more when the object of my OCD was photography along with vintage cameras and lenses.  That phase passed and so shall this one.  Until then ...

excuse me while I go make room in my fall-out shelter for more tubes.  Who needs bottled water, canned ham, and saltines anyway!!


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow.  I just bought a Ken-Rad from him yesterday thinking he was just culling the tube herd.


Bought last week a Ken-Rad and Sylvania Bad Boy from him. The bad boy been cooking for 36 hours now... will keep it running for couple extra days - and spend some ears time with it


----------



## Wes S

Zachik said:


> Bought last week a Ken-Rad and Sylvania Bad Boy from him. The bad boy been cooking for 36 hours now... will keep it running for couple extra days - and spend some ears time with it


  Love to hear your thoughts on the "BAD BOY", assuming it is the 3 hole, from 1952.  That is one tube I have been wanting to hear.


----------



## Ripper2860

At first it was a gut punch.  Now it's a knock-out round-house kick ...  

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/05/us/bourbon-warehouse-collapse/index.html


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 5, 2018)

I was thinking more like …

*WillWorkForTubes2860*


----------



## Wes S

Well. . . I rolled in one of my NOS Westinghouse 6SN7GTB ( d getter ) and it was an amazing experience!  This is the tube folks!

WH d getter, has powerful bass and amazing extension on top, without ever becoming harsh.  Also, there is absolutely no upper midrange glare, like I have been experiencing with my KenRad tubes.  The voices sound just right and the sense of space and imaging are stellar.  This tube has the magic, we all look for in a NOS tube.

I already have 2 and purchased 4 more today, because this tube is that good.

Thanks ProfFalkin!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 5, 2018)

*Wes: * It is a wonderful pairing with Lyr 3, without a doubt!!  

*To Anyone Considering a WH D Getter Tube:  *They suck!   They are absolutely terrible!  I have no idea what hallucinogenic Wes is on, but DO NOT BUY THESE!!  

*Wes:  *The *first rule* of the *WH D Getter Club* is: You do not talk about WH D Getter tubes. The *second* *rule* of WH D getter club is: *You DO NOT TALK ABOUT WH D GETTER TUBES!  *

*6?!*  You, my friend are now officially a tube hoarder!!


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> *Wes: * It is a wonderful pairing with Lyr 3, without a doubt!!
> 
> *To Anyone Considering a WH D Getter Tube:  *They suck!   They are absolutely terrible!  I have no idea what hallucinogenic Wes is on, but DO NOT BUY THESE!!
> 
> ...


I tried to keep it a secret, but I just had to say something   Guys don't pass this tube up, if you get a chance to buy one.


----------



## Wes S

Now it is time to focus on the music. . .


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 5, 2018)

OK.  Wes.  I'm going to talk you through this.  You're going to be OK, dude.  You dropped acid and you are experiencing a bad trip.  You're hearing things and saying things that make absolutely no sense and are not based in any truth or fact.  Just listen to me and everything will be alright.  You're gonna be just fine …  




Dammit!! He's right.  The secrets out.  This WH D getter tube is great and everyone with a Lyr 3 should have 1 or 6 of them. They are awesome and hard to find, so load up while you can.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Can someone show me a picture of the "NOS Westinghouse 6SN7GTB"  I am having a hard time finding one.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> OK.  Wes.  I'm going to talk you through this.  You're going to be OK, dude.  You dropped acid and you are experiencing a bad trip.  You're hearing things and saying things that make absolutely no sense and are not based in any truth or fact.  Just listen to me and everything will be alright.  You're gonna be just fine …
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Love it!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

I will say this, if you like drums stick with the KenRad.  The attack from the KenRad is intense, however it can get fatiguing.  For everything else, in the mix, the Westinghouse is perfection.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

I have this tube here, its pretty dang good.  https://tubeworldexpress.com/collec...o-chrome-top-tall-bottle-nos-1956-single-tube


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 5, 2018)

Wes S said:


> I will say this, if you like drums stick with the KenRad.



Well, who the hell doesn't like drums??!!  

Sorry folks.  False alarm on the WH tube.  Nothing to see here.  Move along, please ... 



caenlenfromOCN said:


> I have this tube here, its pretty dang good.  https://tubeworldexpress.com/collec...o-chrome-top-tall-bottle-nos-1956-single-tube



Nope.  Not doing it.  Not gonna happen.  Not clicking...

DAMMIT!!!


----------



## ProfFalkin

I present to you, the onion.

http://www.iconaudio.com/shop/shuguang-onion-6sn7/


----------



## Ripper2860

You, sir are an enabler.   

I wonder if it sounds as good as it looks?


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> You, sir are an enabler.
> 
> I wonder if it sounds as good as it looks?


I'm just an educator.  I'm informing you of other unique tubes.

As for how it sounds... Let me know.


----------



## Ripper2860

Nope.  Not me.   @bcowen probably has one and will let us all know.

(Is there going to be a pop-quiz on this?)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Nope.  Not me.   @bcowen probably has one and will let us all know.
> 
> (Is there going to be a pop-quiz on this?)



We can call it extra credit.


----------



## Ripper2860

Well, in that case …

I'll just go for the G.E.D.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I would think it would add to microphonics.


----------



## buonassi

Since we're not talking about WH D getters, I just got mine in the mail today.  Appears to be in good condition, but I'm trying out the Northern Electric first.  I do have a concern.  The Northern Electric (NE henceforth) rubs the sides of the lyr 3 amp chassis/cover, see pic.  I think it gets down into the socket pretty deep but I'm not sure if it's fully seated. 

Clearly, I've ordered a socket saver, but they're only available in China, so it'll be a while 'fore it gets here:

1.  is this a problem - the 'not fully seated'?
2.  is this a problem - the contact with aluminum chassis cover?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 5, 2018)

Yeah.  I definitely see a socket saver in your future.

Question 1: Maybe, but if the pins are in far enough and you don't rock the tube, you're probably OK
Question 2: Not likely an issue other than it preventing the tube from seating and possibly microphonics from Lyr transformer vibration (although unlikely).


That is a cool looking tube.  I'm anxious to hear your thoughts on how it sounds after a break-in.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jul 5, 2018)

buonassi said:


> Since we're not talking about WH D getters, I just got mine in the mail today.  Appears to be in good condition, but I'm trying out the Northern Electric first.  I do have a concern.  The Northern Electric (NE henceforth) rubs the sides of the lyr 3 amp chassis/cover, see pic.  I think it gets down into the socket pretty deep but I'm not sure if it's fully seated.
> 
> Clearly, I've ordered a socket saver, but they're only available in China, so it'll be a while 'fore it gets here:
> 
> ...



Yeah, I would not call that ideal.  But if it's working, go for it. Just be careful.

Do yourself a favor on the socket saver.  Test each pin and socket for continuity, and make sure that each pin only has one corresponding socket (there are no shorts between pins).  I've seen pictures of amplifiers that utterly destroyed themselves due to a solder bridge in a socket saver.

It's probably not good pushing the 6.3V/600mA electricity for the heater element through the signal portion of the tube.  Just guessing.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

I decided to keep the Lyr 3 and Mimby combo, but I am retiring from all amps/dacs after this for many many years... really would loved to have gotten my hands on that Westinghouse NOS everyone is crazy about, but its all good. Very happy with my Phillco/Ken Rads/Raytheons/Sylvania... should last me a life time as long as I take care of it. Might try to sell again someday, just not comfortable taking such heavy losses on sales all the time, so really going to try to wash my hands clean and just keep it all and be done with this hobby, very happy where it took me and all the ins and outs. Was a lot of fun. Time for other hobbies now though, and just enjoy what I currently own in the present.


----------



## buonassi

ProfFalkin said:


> I've seen pictures of amplifiers that utterly destroyed themselves due to a solder bridge in a socket saver.



an accidental solder bridge or one that was done with the intention of converting one tube type to another socket?  Just curious.  I will check still, thanks for the tip.


----------



## ProfFalkin

buonassi said:


> an accidental solder bridge or one that was done with the intention of converting one tube type to another socket?  Just curious.  I will check still, thanks for the tip.


An accidental solder bridge aka poor craftsmanship.


----------



## Ripper2860

caenlenfromOCN said:


> I decided to keep the Lyr 3 and Mimby



Does that mean you want your Black Glass KR back?  


J/K -- Hopefully you'll still hang out with us, if nothing than to serve as an example that one can overcome the tube-roller addiction and go on to live a normal life.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Ripper2860 said:


> Does that mean you want your Black Glass KR back?
> 
> 
> J/K -- Hopefully you'll still hang out with us, if nothing than to serve as an example that one can overcome the tube-roller addiction and go on to live a normal life.



no, I own 5 Ken Rad Black Glass, and like 7 other tubes on top of that. Most of them I got free from a friend who moved up to 2-3 grand solid state amps and gave me his old collection.

cheers, hope you enjoy the Ken Rad, I enjoy mine.


----------



## chef8489

I need to find someone that has the Ken Rad, Westinghouse, and one more must have and tested them that I can just purchase all 3 from lol.


----------



## Zachik

Wes S said:


> Love to hear your thoughts on the "BAD BOY", assuming it is the 3 hole, from 1952.  That is one tube I have been wanting to hear.


Despite being 3 years or so in the hobby, I am a tube newbie... Seriously doubt I would be able to properly compare to the only tube I have spent time with so far (stock TS).
Not even sure what "3 hole" refers to, or how do I verify whether or not it is from 1952.
@caenlenfromOCN from whom I bought it - might be able to confirm... I took his word that the tube is the famous bad boy...


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Zachik said:


> Despite being 3 years or so in the hobby, I am a tube newbie... Seriously doubt I would be able to properly compare to the only tube I have spent time with so far (stock TS).
> Not even sure what "3 hole" refers to, or how do I verify whether or not it is from 1952.
> @caenlenfromOCN from whom I bought it - might be able to confirm... I took his word that the tube is the famous bad boy...




its the Bad Boy, Chrome Dome.  i can show you ebay receipt from tube seller i bought it from if you need proof, just let me know. cheers.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 6, 2018)

I am sure it is a good tube, but there is not a chrome dome "Bad boy". Sellers can call it what they want.  Back toward the beginning of this thread there is a link to the 6sn7 thread and it talks about the 1952 sylvania non military tube.


Here is the link again.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> I'm just an educator.  I'm informing you of other unique tubes.
> 
> As for how it sounds... Let me know.



LOL! I'm awaiting my Fotons (to compare with my;




And I'm out!!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## quimbo

There is a copy of Tube Lore for bid at ebay.  I picked one up a few weeks ago for 100.00.  This one is a bid, starting at 95.00


----------



## Ripper2860

I had a search saved but received no alert.  After double-checking, I found a typo where I input 'WH' instead of 'L'.  Incorrect title, but yet eerily appropriate.  I'll post up if it ever becomes available.


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Chome Dome is just a nick name, correct. 

In other news, I spent all night listening to my Phillco tube, the bass is insane on it, very airy as well. Great tube


----------



## FLTWS

Reporting back on my WH "D" vs "Halo" vs Ken-Rad VT231.

I hear virtually no difference between the 2 WH's, both are great sounding with my classical and Jazz CD's. 

If I had a second LYR3 I could run simultaneously off my Yggdrasil "A" I could do quicker A/B'ing, and "maybe", I could detect something but the difference would be no great shakes in the bigger picture. And, as I just ordered a new Yggdrasil "B" on which I plan to do some serious, simultaneous A/B'ing against my "A" unit during 1 to 2 months after delivery, I've got bigger fish to fry.

My Ken-Rad VT231 is another winner, more explosive dynamics than my WH's, with maybe more powerful deep bass, but at times a very slight amount more in the highs with certain recordings than I might like, but not bothersome to me. Those with younger ears most likely could very well hear the highs with a different take from my own.

When my 2 Foton's arrive I'll have 14 different 6SN7 types (don't know why I bought 2, doh!), 9 of them are outright excellent, unless I buy something requiring a pair of 6SN7's I'll probably sit tight. Among my favorites there is no clear winner in my book. A given tube with this HP amp, with these cables and with one of my top 3 phones, just might "click" better than another, but I feel no urgency at this point to wade though any more at this time. And most of these run so cool temp wise, I'll probably fail before they do.

For me, there is no one tube to rule them all.


----------



## Ripper2860

FLTWS said:


> For me, there is no one tube to rule them all.



I agree.  I vacillate between Foton, WH D,  and Ken-Rad with it really being difficult for me to pick-out a clear winner.  I have a pair of Sylvania 6SN7WGTA brown-base tubes and a Sylvania tall bottle 6SN7W on their way and will advise if either of them are mid-blowingly good.


----------



## Odin412

FLTWS said:


> For me, there is no one tube to rule them all.



Very true. That's what makes tube rolling fun!


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> I agree.  I vacillate between Foton, WH D,  and Ken-Rad with it really being difficult for me to pick-out a clear winner.  I have a pair of Sylvania 6SN7WGTA brown-base tubes and a Sylvania tall bottle 6SN7W on their way and will advise if either of them are mid-blowingly good.



I have 3 different Sylvania's and looking back on my notes, all were good.


----------



## quimbo

FLTWS said:


> Reporting back on my WH "D" vs "Halo" vs Ken-Rad VT231.
> 
> I hear virtually no difference between the 2 WH's, both are great sounding with my classical and Jazz CD's.
> 
> ...


Same neighborhood as you.  Picked up a Lyr 3 a few months ago and now have 16 tubes (10 unique varieties)Most, if not all are excellent for my setup and ears


----------



## Wes S (Jul 6, 2018)

FLTWS - Well that is great news, that the halo and d getter Westinghouse tubes sound the same!  There are a lot more of the halo getters available. . .


----------



## Ripper2860

Got my Lyr 3 1-1/2 months ago and I have amassed 16 tubes w/ 4 more on the way.  A bit embarrassing if you ask me.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 6, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> Got my Lyr 3 1-1/2 months ago and I have amassed 16 tubes w/ 4 more on the way.  A bit embarrassing if you ask me.


You are not alone!

I actually was so excited about this amp, that I had purchased and received 3 tubes, before I even got the thing and the tube buying has not stopped yet . . .


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Ripper2860 said:


> Got my Lyr 3 1-1/2 months ago and I have amassed 16 tubes w/ 4 more on the way.  A bit embarrassing if you ask me.




It's time to settle down captain!


----------



## Wes S

My name is Wes and I am a tube addict.


----------



## Ripper2860

<multiple voices respond>

Hello, Wes.  Welcome.


----------



## FLTWS

Wes S said:


> FLTWS - Well that is great news, that the halo and d getter Westinghouse tubes sound the same!  There are a lot more of the halo getters available. . .



They do like 50 to 75 hours of burn time.

Funny, I thought the "D"'s were more common.
I the key is finding a trustworthy source.
Maybe we should put together  a list of sellers we've had good success with.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 6, 2018)

FLTWS said:


> They do like 50 to 75 hours of burn time.
> 
> Funny, I thought the "D"'s were more common.
> I the key is finding a trustworthy source.
> Maybe we should put together  a list of sellers we've had good success with.


Great!

Tube World Express - is great to deal with,  he may not have the tubes listed online, but if you ask he might have some on hand.  He has a couple of WH O getters, as of right now.


----------



## FLTWS

I've had good success with Brent Jesse and Upscale (on a variety of tubes).


----------



## Ripper2860

Ditto the above and add Mike at SND Tube Sales (http://vacuumtubes.com)


----------



## Wes S

Tube world express also test for microphonics and noise, which is a big plus.


----------



## Ripper2860

Ripper2860 said:


> Got my Lyr 3 1-1/2 months ago and I have amassed 16 tubes w/ 4 more on the way.  A bit embarrassing if you ask me.



Oh. Oh.  Forgot about the 4 additional '53 Foton ribbed plate tubes I also ordered.  So 8 are on the way to add to the 16 I already have.  That's a burn rate of 4 tubes a week since getting Lyr.  Yep -- I have a problem.


----------



## buonassi (Jul 6, 2018)

guys, I don't want to hurl superlatives at you and want to refrain from giving my full impression about the Northern Electric.  But for now, I can say that it is my favorite tube so far (by a pretty healthy margin too).  I have tried:  LISST, Stock TS and Russian, as well as some Raytheons I can post a pic of.  I have yet to hear the westinghouse O and D getter, or the fotons I ordered.  So keep this in mind as you read my first thoughts.

I can't comment on all the characteristics just yet - I'm still sorting through them.  What I can comment on is the linear tonal presentation with great end to end extension.  mids are not overly warm and present, they are more in line with the rest of the spectrum.  It is also the most resolving of small details and "space" of the recording.  Treble is hitting my preferences as well, zero rolloff, and deftly rendered, no "zingy-ness". 

Later I will comment on bass, dynamics, sound stage, and harmonic tubey goodness compared to other tubes - but I have to listen more to give you guys some real substantive info.  I owe it another 10 hours or so to ensure it's seasoned too.

edit: one more thing.  when I handle the tube, it sounds like something is loose in there, rattling.  Yet there are no microphonic or ill effects when I listen through my cans - go figure.


----------



## Ripper2860

Get out foul spirit!  I cast you out tube demon.   

I can't wait to hear what your final assessment is.  A really cool looking tube that sounds really good is likely more than I could resist.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> A really cool looking tube that sounds really good is likely more than I could resist.


Like...  The Onion?




You know you want one.


----------



## Ripper2860

I don't know now about the onion.  I may hold out for the pear.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

bcowen said:


> A glass dingleberry.



That's hilarious! I didn't notice anything loose upon visual examination, but will check it more thoroughly upon next tube swap.  Hopefully if the tube shorts it only blows the tube and not the amp!


----------



## Ripper2860

*Tube-rollers BEWARE!!!*

I asked Schiit Audio about what protections the Lyr 3 has in place to prevent or reduce catastrophic damage due to  a bad tube.  Here's a snip of what I received from Tom E. at Schiit Support via e-mail...

==================================
*From Schiit support e-mail:*

*Q: What happens if one insert a tube with a short into Lyr 3?*
_*A:* Depends on where the short is. It may be bad. We can’t predict._

*Q: Does it have any protection mechanisms built-in?*
_*A:* None for broken tubes._

*Q: What type of protection mechanisms does it have built-in (fuse, resistor, etc)?*
_*A:* Start-up time delay, AC fuse._

*Q: If fuse or resistor, is it user replaceable? *
_*A:* Nope

=================================
_
So it seems Lyr 3 has only an AC fuse and NO PROTECTION against a bad tube and in addition includes only a Start-up Delay to protect attached headphones and allow the tube and circuitry to energize and stabilize prior to playback.  *So Tube Roller BEWARE.  Always ensure your tubes are fully tested by either you or a reputable seller before introducing them into Lyr 3.* 

** This may be true for all amps, but I wanted to give all a heads-up.


----------



## FLTWS

Good to know.


----------



## buonassi

Westinghouse D getter = .  

The D must stand for Damn good.  That's all Im'a say right now.

Also, update on the Norther Electric - couldn't find anything loose in there, yet the rattle remains.  Could be any of the the many parts in there simply "tipping" against another (or the glass).  I checked with the previous owner and he never noted any rattling.  Oh well.  Sound is still sublime.  But the answers by  kind of scare me. Then again, I'm not the original owner, so I don't think the warranty transfers to me anyhow.  I kinda thought this was par for the course...  the tube roller assumes the risk.


----------



## FLTWS

I wonder if technically, a tube other than the one supplied, could be considered a modification to the stock product.


----------



## chef8489

FLTWS said:


> I wonder if technically, a tube other than the one supplied, could be considered a modification to the stock product.


Not if its within the specs of the product as tubes burn out just like light bulbs and are replaceable.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 7, 2018)

buonassi said:


> But the answers by  kind of scare me. Then again, I'm not the original owner, so I don't think the warranty transfers to me anyhow. I kinda thought this was par for the course...



Yeah -- they scared me a bit.  Since Schiit mentions Tube-rolling and how it is now easier with only 1-tube to deal with, etc.,  it seems they understand that folks are likely going to roll their own and are OK with that.  I had hoped/assumed that given their understanding that tube-rolling was likely, that there would be some sort of protection mechanism for a potentially bad tube in the way of fuses or sacrificial resistors, etc.

Oh well --  Love the Lyr 3 and I'll just be more careful.  Hey -- the thing is a steal at $499 and one can't have everything at that price, right?  Plus -- being a Toob Noob, it may be there are no amps that offer protection against a bad tube.  I do think that SCHIIT should more clearly state that tube-rolling is an 'at-your-own-risk' affair and not let newbies like me think/assume it's all good because they have my back with bad tube protection circuitry'.


----------



## ProfFalkin

FLTWS said:


> I wonder if technically, a tube other than the one supplied, could be considered a modification to the stock product.


No.  It's not a modification to the product. The tube is a consumable item.   It would be like an auto manufacturer voiding your warranty because you changed wiper blades.


----------



## buonassi

buonassi said:


> Westinghouse D getter = .
> 
> The D must stand for Damn good. That's all Im'a say right now.



Currently reliving Opeth - Deliverance (original mastering 44/16).  For anyone who loves metal, the WDG (Westinghouse D getter) is very good.  Because it's a used tube and I've put about 8 hours baking time on it (music not really playing much of that time note) I think I can share a bit more:


Bass - Extends well into sub region, is tight.  Not flabby or bloomy.
Mids - They simply scream (in a good way).  Very present, decent warmth and enveloping within the stage.
Treble - Natural, a touch attenuated, but not more than a touch.  Cymbals don't cause fatigue nor are they 'cutting'.  Very good, but not great extension in the highs.
Dynamics (Macro) - I think is the best I've heard so far.  Loud is loud and soft is soft - compression is not rearing it's head here.  And the swings are easy to pick out, especially in the mids.  You move with and feel the music more because of this.
Stage - hard to tell with Elear, but seem to be satisfyingly wide.  No complaints here.  Wish I could offer more, but I don't have cans that do wide.  Just HD600 and Elear.

This tube simply rocks with electric guitars and drums.  Prog/Rock/Metal = match made.  Bass guitar and kick drum aren't as separated as with other tubes, but the impact can't be denied.  The slam factor of this tube is on point.  What I love best about it is the kick drum.  The smack of the batter head and the deep thump of the resonance of the kick are very cohesive.  Sometimes it can sound too disjointed as the higher frequency attack renders differently than the thump of the bass.  Not so here.  For kick drum, the cohesion just allows it to drive the whole music (as it would in a concert).  Yes, it is punchy, but not overly dry - some decay is present. 

Also of note are the mids.  They swell and jump out at you, somewhat 3D like.  Instruments and voices in the mids seem to jump/originate from any point on a ring in front of you and command your attention.  Imagine that you're holding a large hula hoop about a foot in front of you with your head centered in the middle.  Coming from a solid state, this gives the impression the mids are running a little hot - and they are, but only when something is featured.  When the hook hits and the guitars come in with - the drive from the guitars and kick drum are very satisfying.

The bass guitar does somewhat get lost (in terms of articulation) but the notes are still there, you're not losing the actual notes, but its frequencies aren't as magic as the kick and guitars.  

Cymbals aren't too hot or fatiguing, but all the strikes are there and the extension is there.  This tube isn't the best with "room" information, and resolutions isn't quite as good as my solid state - but this is slight!  And the tradeoff is very worth it for the dynamics, enveloping mids.  

This is a very good find.  Who rec'd this thing originally?  Was this just a fluke?  Some dude had it lying around and gave it a whirl?


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jul 8, 2018)

buonassi said:


> Imagine that you're holding a large hula hoop about a foot in front of you with your head centered in the middle.


I can't.  No.  Hula hoops terrify me. 

Great review, but I had to stop reading there.

 

Seriously, good stuff.  I agree with what you wrote, and can whole heartedly suggest it as a excellent match for the Blues as well.   Keb'Mo's song "Move" or Buddy Guy's "Miss Ida B" are great synergies.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 8, 2018)

For me, it's Slinky.  Totally creeps me out.


----------



## ProfFalkin

OMG, does it ever stop?!   The horror.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Love Buddy Guy. Gonna pull that up right now...


Me too.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 8, 2018)

buonassi - you describe in words perfectly the "magic", i was talking about, and could not put into words.  You are a master at describing what you hear! I concur with it all.


----------



## whirlwind

bcowen said:


> Love Buddy Guy. Gonna pull that up right now...



Sorry to butt in this conversation guys.

I just wanted to say that for Buddy Guy lovers....grab his new album....you will be glad you did  ...Enjoy.


----------



## Ripper2860

BTW -- Keb'Mo's version of 'The Times -They are a Changing' is pretty nice.


----------



## buonassi (Jul 8, 2018)

I think @ProfFalkin  deserves a special honor in this thread.  Thank you for pointing us to the WDG.
And yes, @bcowen I have 2 of the fotons on the way from Russia.

As for my sonic discernment abilities, I attribute them not to my ears, but to my setup.  I'll get to my setup shortly, and I'll give a precursor to a technique I've been working on, but keep it limited to this post.  *I don't want to steer the thread away from Lyr 3 tubes.
*
TLDR__
Headphones do linear bass amazing, but struggle with the treble.  Conversely, speakers do amazing linearity in the treble, but struggle with bass.  This is due to physics (the simple to understand kind).  Each frequency has a wave length, bass have long wavelengths between oscillations, highs have very short lengths.  These short lengths wreak havoc on linearity when enclosed in a small area.  Long wavelengths are horrible in larger room size areas.  They reflect off the surfaces of cups, cheeks, ears, baffles, drivers and cause peaks/nulls in the treble response.  Just look at any headphone graph and you'll see how these peaks and dips start to occur once you get over 3-4K, then swing wildly after about 6-7K. 

While our ears are pretty good at normalizing these peaks (or better said, adjusting to them), they cause masking of certain sonic regions, attenuate some, and amplify others.  The result is a loss in balanced resolution, loss of frontal (or center) localization, and less precise imaging.  Now, down't get me wrong, headphones are still enjoyable with these sonic challenges, but they have unlocked potential!

For many years people have been using room correction software for speakers to achieve better linearity across all frequencies.  Headphones are getting there, but this correction for headphones is only available on 'consumer grade' headphones, not true enthusiast cans.

This is where EQ comes into play.  I'm not talking about simple EQ to balance the overall tonal traits of a headphone, I'm talking about surgical EQ to flatten out these treble peaks and nulls.  It's a bitch to do, and very time consuming, not gonna lie.  But the payoff is the best bang for the buck improvement in SQ I've experienced, bar none.  Everything comes into focus, even the sound of the room/reverb/hall. 

Many purists object to EQ as it can introduce time smearing errors (primarily due to phase alterations).  If you apply the correct TYPE of EQ to the right frequency area, you can minimize this.  To me, it's yet another tradeoff, but by far, the lesser of two evils.  I'd rather have an imperceivable amount of phase shift that a glaringly obvious treble spike at 9khz!​
*Anyway, back to the whole point of this post: * I use a TOTL EQ software along with preset sine tones and controllable sweeps to build compensation curves that linearize MY cans for MY ear anatomy and MY brain.  It has to be done this way and unfortunately there's not a simple shortcut.  I can't just send you a file that you load (Sonarworks does that already and it's decent, but it's aim is overall tonal balance to a studio sound, not perfectly linear treble response).

So this is how I hear subtle differences.  And really, anyone can do this too.  I'm not a golden-ear by any means.  I'm 38 and luckily can still hear up to 16K in one ear, 14K in the other.  I actually have a TMJ related hearing problem with my right ear that comes and goes based on how bad my TMJ is acting up.

So, I'm thinking about either doing a video, or step by step post on how I equalize cans.  The idea is not mine (see below video), I just took it to a new psycho obsessive level!  This is how it all started for me, then I took this premise, adapted it using much better software, and have something more in depth now.  This guy is going for frontal localization where as I go for perfectly flat treble response.  Techniques for compensation are similar. 

*Anyway, those interested, drop me a PM and I may start a thread or something helping others achieve this.*


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm up for a video.  Anything to better tune and balance my system is absolutely welcome.  Whether it becomes an obsession or not is totally on me!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jul 8, 2018)

bcowen said:


> It was @ProfFalkin that put the spotlight on this tube, and I'm glad he did. Thanks Prof!


Welcome!   

My only regret is not buying a spare before they got so popular.   lol



buonassi said:


> I think @ProfFalkin deserves a special honor in this thread. Thank you for pointing us to the WDG.



Thanks  =)


----------



## Zachik

Quick question for all the experts:
I got a Ken-Rad VT-231 tube which hisses A LOT. Even when volume is down to zero!  Normally, would burn-in make the hiss disappear on those?
I do NOT use sensitive cans to make this test, and in fact I tried 2 other tubes (stock TS and Sylvania bad boy) and NONE of them hiss with same cans.

While I am at it - another question for the tube gurus:
I know the KR VT-231 are highly regarded and recommended. What about Sylvania VT231 JAN-CHS-6SN7GT?
Any experience with them? How do they compare to the KR VT-231?


----------



## Ripper2860

I have 3x Ken-Rad VT-231 tubes and none of them hiss -- never did.  I do not think that burn-in will help.  I would look at a return, if possible or you could try the following …

1. Remove the tube from your amp and let it cool.
2. Hold the tube upright and Flick the tube glass on the side with a finger nail a few times.  Give it a few moderate thumps with the nail, but don't go crazy
3. Grasp the tube upright and securely and knock the base on a desktop a few times.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 a 2 to 3 times.

I read on the Head-fi 6SN7 thread that sometimes debris can collect between the grid and plate and doing the above can knock it down to the tube bottom.  I had a Hitachi tube that would periodically distort while playing and it stopped giving me any issues after I did this.  It may help, or it may not -- but you might feel better taking a bit of your anger out on the tube.  

As for Sylvania -- I don't think those are on-par with KR, but they are good tubes with a different sound profile.  I've never heard them called a bad sounding tube.


----------



## chef8489

I have the KR VT-231 inbound. Now just need the Westinghouse d better. If someone has an extra they want to bbn part with hit me up


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> I have 3x Ken-Rad VT-231 tubes and none of them hiss -- never did.  I do not think that burn-in will help.  I would look at a return, if possible or you could try the following …
> 
> 1. Remove the tube from your amp and let it cool.
> 2. Hold the tube upright and Flick the tube glass on the side with a finger nail a few times.  Give it a few moderate thumps with the nail, but don't go crazy
> ...



Agreed, my K-R is dead quiet and the Sylvania's are good tubes and I have 3 different variety's of them.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> I have 3x Ken-Rad VT-231 tubes and none of them hiss -- never did. I do not think that burn-in will help. I would look at a return, if possible or you could try the following …





FLTWS said:


> Agreed, my K-R is dead quiet and the Sylvania's are good tubes and I have 3 different variety's of them.



Sigh 
Any one of you hoarders (you know who I am talking to... ) willing to sell a Ken-Rad VT-231 to a poor guy who has none (i.e. not competing hoarder) - please PM me... Thanks!


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 9, 2018)

Zachik said:


> Sigh
> Any one of you hoarders (you know who I am talking to... ) willing to sell a Ken-Rad VT-231 to a poor guy who has none (i.e. not competing hoarder) - please PM me... Thanks!



LOL, I only have 1 K-R VT-231. I'd like 2 more in a matched pair myself for possible future use singly or paired.

Check here:   http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm


----------



## ilikepooters (Jul 9, 2018)

Anyone else managed to try a Raytheon 6SN7WGT yet? I rate it slightly above the Westinghouse D getter personally.

Three Lions - Baddiel, Skinner + Lightning Seeds sounds awesome with this tube


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 9, 2018)

Oh geeez.   Now why did you have to go and post that?  I really thought I was done with buying tubes.


----------



## buonassi

ilikepooters said:


> Anyone else managed to try a Raytheon 6SN7WGT yet? I rate it slightly above the Westinghouse D getter personally.
> 
> Three Lions - Baddiel, Skinner + Lightning Seeds sounds awesome with this tube



The Raytheon 6sn7gtb I've tried, but not wgt .very interesting. Where'd you get yours?


----------



## ilikepooters

buonassi said:


> The Raytheon 6sn7gtb I've tried, but not wgt .very interesting. Where'd you get yours?



EBay.

Was a used one all the way from South Africa. Didn't even need burning in.

There is a US site that sells them for $50 each but can't remember the name. Think I found it through Google.

Few more on eBay too.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> _"I really thought I was done with buying tubes."_
> 
> Said the alcoholic as he walked into the bar.


At least tube addiction won't lead to liver disease and jaundice.


... probably.


----------



## JohnBal

FLTWS said:


> Agreed, my K-R is dead quiet and the Sylvania's are good tubes and I have 3 different variety's of them.


I personally prefer the Sylvania to all other tubes I've tried. I've tried the 3 hole bad boys but prefer the flat plates from the early 50's to them. They mesh perfectly with my AQ Nighthawks. Strong clean low end, detailed mids and highs without being harsh at all. Holographic imaging with layers and layers of wide and deep staging. The stage is set perfectly for me. Not too close up/in my face or too far away. I have not tried the Westinghouse that are so popular now, so I can't compare them. But I'm quite satisfied with what it have.


----------



## buonassi

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/nos...uum-tubes-12au7-ecc82-6sn7-5692-e80cc.804796/

A couple tubes for sale here! Just sharing


----------



## Wes S

ilikepooters said:


> Anyone else managed to try a Raytheon 6SN7WGT yet? I rate it slightly above the Westinghouse D getter personally.
> 
> Three Lions - Baddiel, Skinner + Lightning Seeds sounds awesome with this tube


What do you like more about the Raytheon 6SN7WGT vs WH d getter?


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 10, 2018)

ilikepooters said:


> Anyone else managed to try a Raytheon 6SN7WGT yet? I rate it slightly above the Westinghouse D getter personally.
> 
> Three Lions - Baddiel, Skinner + Lightning Seeds sounds awesome with this tube



I have this one:
*Raytheon 6SN7GT, blackplate, clearglass with yellow or orange label, medium glass envelope*
It's not the "W"GT; checking my notes it was a good tube but forward (which messed with the soundstage) and brighter than my Ken-Rad VT-231 (which is becoming my favorite, perhaps even over the WH.).


----------



## FLTWS

Off the wall question for the tube tech's; is it possible to do a balanced design with a single 6SN7 or are the 2 halves tied together at some point necessitating a second tube?


----------



## ProfFalkin

FLTWS said:


> Off the wall question for the tube tech's; is it possible to do a balanced design with a single 6SN7 or are the 2 halves tied together at some point necessitating a second tube?


You can do two channels with only one tube.  Each triode section is independent of the other.

The Bottlehead Crack does this, and you can use 6SN7 tubes with an adapter.


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> You can do two channels with only one tube.  Each triode section is independent of the other.
> 
> The Bottlehead Crack does this, and you can use 6SN7 tubes with an adapter.



Thanks, that's interesting to note.


----------



## ilikepooters

FLTWS said:


> I have this one:
> *Raytheon 6SN7GT, blackplate, clearglass with yellow or orange label, medium glass envelope*
> It's not the "W"GT; checking my notes it was a good tube but forward (which messed with the soundstage) and brighter than my Ken-Rad VT-231 (which is becoming my favorite, perhaps even over the WH.).



This is said tube: https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/PERFECT-NA...270036?hash=item2aae61c754:g:zHkAAOSwrj1bQefj



Wes S said:


> What do you like more about the Raytheon 6SN7WGT vs WH d getter?



The raytheon has that last bit of detail and clarity in the treble without being bright. Instrument separation and imaging are also on another level.

It's exciting to listen to


----------



## Wes S

ilikepooters said:


> This is said tube: https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/PERFECT-NA...270036?hash=item2aae61c754:g:zHkAAOSwrj1bQefj
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How is the bass, compared to the WH?


----------



## ilikepooters (Jul 10, 2018)

Wes S said:


> How is the bass, compared to the WH?



Similar, maybe a touch more oomph with the Raytheon, tube is just a little warmer on the whole i reckon.

From the 6SN7 reference thread:



> *Raytheon 6SN7WGT*
> [brown base, red labels, top getter with rectangular getter holder on stalk, black plates with 'cubes' on top mica, round top mica with 3 'umbrella spokes']
> ● “A few other suggestions are the Raytheon 1950's 6SN7WGT brown base, has great bass and nice warmth (can have yellow, orange, red, brown printing depending on the year)” –Robert H





> ● “If you like (much) more excitement and drive; change the Sylvania's for Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7WGT from the early to mid 1950.” –Glod [flat plates]


----------



## buonassi

Westinghouse foil ring getter:  crazy resolution - hearing details is effortless on this - they're highlighted.  Not going to slam like D getter, completely different sound to my ears.  I find that I like some things it does a lot.  it's hard to pick a favorite!  Here are my notes:

*O getter WH - vs D getter*



not anywhere as much bass slam - slower bass but deep -

compressed dynamics (somewhat) - not as much dynamic range between soft and loud passages - but still some range

not as mid-centric - at least high mids (not as forward) - more of a reference sound

more ‘reverb’ effect?  more euphony?  most tubey sounding (what little I know about that)

easily has a wider stage - diffuse, scattered field, with good imaging still - not best imaging.

that bass kick coherence isn’t as good, but articulation of bass guitar is better heard

very good mid layering, warmer lower mid focus

actually, an interesting sound - for a changeup


----------



## Zachik

Anyone using tube dampening? I was told it may reduce microphonic issues. Is that true? 
In general, do tube dampeners have any downsides? advantages?

Also, anyone tried Psvane CV-181-TII tube? Looks really cool (aesthetically) and was curious since I do not believe I seen it mentioned here...


----------



## chef8489

ilikepooters said:


> Similar, maybe a touch more oomph with the Raytheon, tube is just a little warmer on the whole i reckon.
> 
> From the 6SN7 reference thread:


I have a Raytheon 6sn7gtb wonder how the 6sn7wgt compares.


----------



## Wes S

Zachik said:


> Anyone using tube dampening? I was told it may reduce microphonic issues. Is that true?
> In general, do tube dampeners have any downsides? advantages?
> 
> Also, anyone tried Psvane CV-181-TII tube? Looks really cool (aesthetically) and was curious since I do not believe I seen it mentioned here...


I have tried some herbies tube dampers, and never really had any good results.  The microphonics, did not go away.


----------



## ilikepooters

Best thing for microphonics is to make sure the amp doesn't move. No vibrations etc.

When I had the original Lyr I kept it on a rubbery/foam mat because I had some microphonic tubes. Never had a probletm after that.


Luckily 6SN7 types seem a lot better. More robust.


----------



## skyline315 (Jul 11, 2018)

So, a very kind user at..a different...forum... was nice enough to hook me up with a Psvane UK-6SN7 for dirt cheap. This isn't a tube you see around a lot, and I haven't heard much feedback on it since they aren't widely available used. New, they are often sold in pairs for over $100, so it's a steep price for tubes that don't have a well-known track record.

It looks a bit silly in the Lyr 3, though it thankfully fits perfectly without a socket saver. I mean perfectly.







Until now the majority of my listening was with the stock TS, which I find to be perfectly listenable. The major complaint I've seen regarding the Lyr 3, however, is that it can sound a bit too polite due to a lack in dynamics. Perhaps a bit too dry or too neutral.

if you're in that camp, then this may be the tube you're looking for. My first impression was of being hit over the head by a hammer. Alive, energetic, and exciting, but ultimately fatiguing. I let it run straight for 24 hours and the fatigue-factor has vanished. Relative to the TS, you'll certainly notice an increase in bass (quantity if not quality), a slightly more spacious sound, and more drum punch/impact. I don't notice any downsides in relation to the TS unless you simply need/want something that is super smooth. It can sound harsher than the TS with bad recordings, but that's not a flaw in the tube.

The biggest bonus to me is that the Lyr 3/HD650 synergy that has been widely panned (a criticism I agreed with) has now been solved for me. The extra bass and punch seems to bring the 650s alive in a way that pushes the Lyr 3 more towards Jot/Valhalla-like synergy. They sound a little leaner, quicker, and punchier compared to the TS which just felt a little...limp(?) in comparison.

Others may disagree, so don't rush out and buy this tube expecting a mind-blowing experience. Tastes and synergy are too important to overlook. But, for whatever reason, it works for me.

All listening done with the gear in my signature. The 650 is stock, but of the newer/"brighter" variety - a.k.a. the earpads aren't compressed beyond recognition yet.

I hope some other people are able to test it out to confirm/dispute what I'm hearing. I look forward to the impressions!


----------



## buonassi

I've been looking at some psvane tubes and just may try the CV 181 Tii.  *Does anyone know if there's any merit in "grading".*  I keep seeing several trim levels (grades) for these psvanes/ shuguang treasures and my BS meter started bleeping and blooping. 

BTW, you can read up a bit on the ownership and brief history of the psvane company here.  http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/who-is-psvane/

Also worth updating - '63 westinghouse "O foil getter" - currently my favorite.  I'm a tad smitten with this rather inexpensive vintage "who knew".  As good as the D getter is, this one trades off in some key areas, but gains in others - ref my previous post.  The tonal landscape is very similar to plugging directly into my Metrum Amethyst, which reminded a very well known and respected member on another site (which I can't name because mods will yank this post) of the Eddie Current black widow.  I'm shocked that Schiit amps can sound this good with the right tube.  I really was not a fan - but am now!


----------



## skyline315

buonassi said:


> I've been looking at some psvane tubes and just may try the CV 181 Tii.


The person that sold me the Psvane claims that, in the Lyr 3, the UK tube is better.

He felt that the CV 181 was superior to the UK in pre-amp duties.

This is all 2nd hand info, but probably worth passing along.


----------



## Wes S

Well. . .I did it again.  Just scored a couple of real NOS Sylvania 1952 6sn7gt "bad boys".  I said I was not going to do it, but I found a deal on a coouple, that I could not pass up.  Now let's pray they are not microphonic or noisy, and I will report back after I do some thorough listening.  My KenRad's and WH d getters, are going to get a run for their money, if the "bad boys", live up to the hipe.


----------



## FLTWS

Wes S said:


> Well. . .I did it again.  Just scored a couple of real NOS Sylvania 1952 6sn7gt "bad boys".  I said I was not going to do it, but I found a deal on a coouple, that I could not pass up.  Now let's pray they are not microphonic or noisy, and I will report back after I do some thorough listening.  My KenRad's and WH d getters, are going to get a run for their money, if the "bad boys", live up to the hipe.



I'll be curious to know what you experience. I'm still K-R vs WH with K-R slightly ahead for my tastes.
I'm still awaiting delivery on my Foton's.


----------



## chef8489

Just took out my Reflektor 6n9s and put in the Vt-231 Ken-Rad. Will give it a good listen, but the 6n9s by reflektor is a pretty good deal as well. Really cheap and sounds great.


----------



## buonassi

chef8489 said:


> 6n9s


I couldn't find anything about it on the 6sn7 thread
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/
will this work safely in lyr 3?  Sounds like it's functioning and sounding good. so........


----------



## Phantaminum

buonassi said:


> I couldn't find anything about it on the 6sn7 thread
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/
> will this work safely in lyr 3?  Sounds like it's functioning and sounding good. so........



Probably a typo and meant to say 6n8s.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 14, 2018)

Scored a couple of 50's Sylvania 6SN7WGTA USN brown-base tubes and I'm pretty happy with them.  Sound-stage is wonderfully wide with a nice crisp treble, nicely presented/resolved mids, and nice bass w/  SLAM that is missing from tubes I've tried previously.  Bass is not Ken-Rad level deep, but they are definitely not bass-shy and are much more powerful -- even more-so than the WH D's, IMHO.  Definitely worth checking these out in WGT or WGTA version.  These are my daily drivers ...

... for now.


----------



## buonassi

I just bought another NOS '63 westinghouse halo foil getter. I have to have a backup!  

I see clearly now the gateway that the lyr 3 is to tube addiction and I think I've been able to summarize just how the loop functions: 

Being only one tube to roll, you can justify small purchases to try new sounds - but slowly lose track of how much all those little purchases add up.  You don't care, you keep on..... So you try a new tube (because some dude you don't know personally on a forum gave it the thumbs up) and you end up liking it, so you have to hunt down a couple more to stash, cause you fear (with impending doom) that you may not be able to replicate that sound when your current tube fizzles out, and you're somewhat certain that they'll be hard to come by (being no longer manufactured).

*You're labeled a hoarder (I'm looking at you @Ripper2860) , but really, you're just an addict, lured by the seemingly innocuous hobby that is audio gear and music enjoyment.  But you don't realize that you've lost control, and the thought of a 12-step program is so farfetched and unnecessary it doesn't even get a fleeting chance to register.  You're in denial.*

Being only one tube to roll, you can justify yet another tiny, minuscule purchases to try new sounds - So you buy a new tube (because some dude you still don't know personally on a forum gave it two thumbs up) and you end up liking it, so you have to hunt down a couple more to stash, cause you fear (with impending doom) that you may not be able to replicate that sound when your current tube fizzles out, and you're somewhat certain that they'll be impossible to come by (being no longer manufactured).

*Reviewing credit card statements isn't enough of a wake up call.  You don't cry out for help, because, let's face it, it's a harmless hobby.  "Think of how much money some people spend on clothes or jewelry", you say to yourself. "It's no different".  You justify your insanity, make a pbj sammy and start thinking:*

"Being only one tube to roll, I can justify this tiny, minuscule purchases to try new sounds" - so you buy a new tube

Hello...my name is Vince, and I'm a tube rolling addict.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 14, 2018)

Welcome to my hell, Vince.  I just thank God I didn't buy a Valhalla 2?


----------



## chef8489

Phantaminum said:


> Probably a typo and meant to say 6n8s.


No it was not a typo. It is an equivalent to a 6sl7 anf 6h9c. It is a 50s anf 60s Russian tube.


----------



## Phantaminum

chef8489 said:


> No it was not a typo. It is an equivalent to a 6sl7 anf 6h9c. It is a 50s anf 60s Russian tube.



I stand corrected and thanks for the update. Seems you like the the sound. Any issues with it being a higher amplification tube?


----------



## chef8489 (Jul 14, 2018)

Phantaminum said:


> I stand corrected and thanks for the update. Seems you like the the sound. Any issues with it being a higher amplification tube?


I have not had any issues. I had it left over from my vali 2 and it worked great with that as well, so I thought what the hey and tried it with my Lyr 3.


----------



## ilikepooters

Ripper2860 said:


> Scored a couple of 50's Sylvania 6SN7WGTA USN brown-base tubes and I'm pretty happy with them.  Sound-stage is wonderfully wide with a nice crisp treble, nicely presented/resolved mids, and nice bass w/  SLAM that is missing from tubes I've tried previously.  Bass is not Ken-Rad level deep, but they are definitely not bass-shy and are much more powerful -- even more-so than the WH D's, IMHO.  Definitely worth checking these out in WGT or WGTA version.  These are my daily drivers ...
> 
> ... for now.




I wonder if there are some differences between WGT tubes and regular GT (materials and specs more than construction) WGT variants seem to have really nice sound.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 14, 2018)

Other than additional structures support and a higher heat-bearing base (brown-base), I would imagine identically designed, same-branded GT and WGT are identical within the the same year (or maybe even plant). Now variations between designs, plants, and years can make a difference, but as far as I understand it, assuming identical design, the tubes are identical with the exception of support structure and base.


----------



## JohnBal

ilikepooters said:


> I wonder if there are some differences between WGT tubes and regular GT (materials and specs more than construction) WGT variants seem to have really nice sound.


Sylvania made so many different 6sn7 variants over their years of production, even through the same time periods, it amazes me. A brouse through the auction site shows so many different construction types. I'm not sure I could ever try every one. I am a fan of theirs though. For me, the flat black plates from early 50's are just right. I've tried the 3 hole bad boys from the early 50's, tall crome domes from the late 40's, short chrome domes from mid 50's, 2 hole bad boy variants- not the real bad boys- even though they are from the same time periods. They all sounded good to me, but also slightly different compared to each other. It's likely I would not need any other make of tube for my tastes. Although I have tried various Tung Sol, Ken Rad, RCA, CBS, Raytheon, Nation Union and even Tung Sol and National Union 6f8g's. The Sylvania is what I keep coming back to.


----------



## Ripper2860

Absolutely.  The number of variations on design just for the GT can make ones head spin!!  2-hole, 3-hole, varying plates and mica structure, top getter flashing, bottom getter flashing, etc., tall bottle, short bottle, and all with the same 6SN7GT lbale.


----------



## ProfFalkin

buonassi said:


> I just bought another NOS '63 westinghouse halo foil getter. I have to have a backup!
> 
> I see clearly now the gateway that the lyr 3 is to tube addiction and I think I've been able to summarize just how the loop functions:
> 
> ...



I'm on a tube 12 step program.   

It's 12 steps from my desk to the cabinet where I keep my tubes.


----------



## Zachik

ProfFalkin said:


> I'm on a tube 12 step program.
> 
> It's 12 steps from my desk to the cabinet where I keep my tubes.


Speaking of which, how do you guys store your tubes?
Is there any recommended box / drawer / etc. that is divided to hold the tubes separately?  
Links and/or photos with ideas are VERY welcome!


----------



## buonassi

Zachik said:


> Speaking of which, how do you guys store your tubes?


I was just going to ask this!  I'm thinking there must be a hobby box with individual compartments or something.


----------



## ProfFalkin

I store my tubes using a very sophisticated and complicated process:


Open cabinet.
Put tube in cabinet.
Close cabinet.


----------



## Zachik

Anyone uses Pelican case with those pluck foams? Maybe one of the laptop sized ones?
for example: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005ERO7QM/ ?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 15, 2018)

I re-purposed several Dana Cable boxes with magnetic latches to store my 6DJ8's, 12AU7's, and 6SN7's.








I've got a 3rd box with some odds and ends and some tube related stuff.
Of course, I'm not trying to corner the market on tubes so these will do me fine for the foreseeable future, (some space for the the 2 Foton's on order), and they stack nicely.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> Seriously, depending on how many tubes you have, this *is* a good way: a genuine tube caddy.  Hard to find in this kind of condition, but they pop up every now and then on Ebay. My wife found this one at a resale shop.



My dad had a couple of these back in the 50's.


----------



## Wes S

FLTWS said:


> I re-purposed several Dana Cable boxes with magnetic latches to store my 6DJ8's, 12AU7's, and 6SN7's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see a lot of Upscale Audio labels.  Quality tubes!


----------



## Wes S

I just can't take out this WH d getter!  This tube is so much fun to listen to, that my other tubes are collecting dust. .


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 15, 2018)

Wes S said:


> I see a lot of Upscale Audio labels.  Quality tubes!



Almost all are from *Upscale* or *Brent Jesse*. A couple are *Tube Depot*
My 3rd box has some very old matched pairs of *Gold Aero* and *RAM* 6DJ8's,
(and some very old Audio Research tube dampers, can't believe I've been dragging some this 
and other tube related stuff with me for 5 decades), ...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2018)

You and I both know that it's for cleaning the pins on tubes.  You can't see the steel wool, but I'm confident it is under the bubble-wrap.  The fact he has gloves indicates yet another fellow that understands the effectiveness of paint thinner as a solvent in the tube cleaning process.

1. Soak the tube overnight in paint thinner. (use the gloves to place and retrieve the tubes from the paint thinner bath)
2. Scrape the crud off the pins with the butter knife
3. Use the steel wool to get any remaining crud left after scraping with the knife and to polish the glass envelope.

Easy, Peasy, Lemon Squeeszy!    **







** My lawyer states that I must post that the above is an attempt at humor and is not provided as advice or direction on how to clean vacuum tubes.


----------



## drtechno

ilikepooters said:


> I wonder if there are some differences between WGT tubes and regular GT (materials and specs more than construction) WGT variants seem to have really nice sound.


WGT    W= Rugged industial use millitary grade, improved physical construction (usually marketed as low microphonic).

GT= Glass tube


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 15, 2018)

drtechno said:


> WGT    W= Rugged industial use millitary grade, improved physical construction (usually marketed as low microphonic).
> 
> GT= Glass tube



_Right!_



Ripper2860 said:


> You and I both know that it's for cleaning the pins on tubes.  You can't see the steel wool, but I'm confident it is under the bubble-wrap.  The fact he has gloves indicates yet another fellow that understands the effectiveness of paint thinner as a solvent in the tube cleaning process.
> 
> 1. Soak the tube overnight in paint thinner. (use the gloves to place and retrieve the tubes from the paint thinner bath)
> 2. Scrape the crud off the pins with the butter knife
> ...



_LOL! almost all the tubes I've gotten have been exceptionally clean and smooth looking upon arrival. I understand the benefits of using the different cleaning fluids to improve physical/electrical contact.
Still have some "Kontak" I use on discolored pins just to be sure, but I find 91% Isopropyl and J&J Safety Swabs;




 

do any excellent job. They fit snugly between the plastic center shaft and the pins, and between the pins to do a nice job all the way around the pins compared to the usual shaped ones.



 
_


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2018)

Alright, I'll fess up …

The tubes I buy are typically in nice shape**.  A cleaning with DeoxIT and cleanable/reusable foam rubber swabs are usually more than enough to get the job done.

**If I see a posting for tested tubes with really crappy pins, I question whether the tube has really been tested.  Anyone seriously testing tubes would clean the pins before inserting tubes into their expensive test gear.


----------



## FLTWS

Images up now.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2018)

Ooooh.  Nice _tip_ on the Safety Swabs!  (pun intended)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> As you noted, most of your tubes came from quality vendors and they almost certainly cleaned the pins. The worst I've run across are the 50's Melz tubes from Ebay. There's something about Russian dirt that makes it, well..._dirtier_.


Must be all the irradiated soil lol.


----------



## Phantaminum

chef8489 said:


> Must be all the irradiated soil lol.



I feel like a little bit of u-238 treatment extends out the highs and gives these Ruskies some great dynamics. At the expense of their half life of course.


----------



## Ripper2860

One only lives once and the second pair of ears one grows can really help with sound-stage and imaging..


----------



## chef8489

Ripper2860 said:


> One only lives once and the second pair of ears one grows can really help with sound-stage and imaging..


Give you that perfect sound and balance you were looking for between two different sets of cans.


----------



## Zachik

Are these compatible with the Lyr3:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-6N7S-6...255651?hash=item239d7fd423:g:~lAAAOSw93Zav2z9

Says "6N7S" as opposed to "6SN7"... Being a tube newb - not sure if that is compatible or not...
I know Fotons were highly recommended before on this thread, and so was this seller from Russia.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2018)

--Deleted--


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2018)

Zachik said:


> I know Fotons were highly recommended before on this thread



Here are the ones you want …

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8...173507?hash=item238a3dfc83:g:xmAAAOSwjpRavJ8e


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Here are the ones you want …
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8...173507?hash=item238a3dfc83:g:xmAAAOSwjpRavJ8e





bcowen said:


> The 6N7S is not a direct plug-in for the Lyr. May be possible with an adapter, although it draws almost 800 milliamps on the heater(s) versus the 600 of the 6SN7.  I'd stick with a 6SN7 / 6N8S (or in Russian parlance a 6H8C).



Thanks guys! Ordered the correct one!!
OMG - I am becoming a hoarder, too (although I have LONG way to go before I get close to ANY of the real hoarders here )


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2018)

He's a good reseller.  @bcowen has purchased from that seller and I have purchased 8 of those Fotons from them as well with no issues.  The eBay ETA is a bit conservative with my orders have taking about 3-weeks after he ships to arrive.  

BEWARE:  It's a long burn-in process (100-150 hours) and the tubes will vacillate between good, bad, and wonderful several times over the course of the burn-in.  Don't give up on them -- give them the time they need.  Just keep saying to yourself -- Patience is a virtue.  Good things come to those that wait, etc.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> He's a good reseller.  @bcowen has purchased from that seller and I have purchased 8 of those Fotons from them as well with no issues.  The eBay ETA is a bit conservative with my orders have taking about 3-weeks after he ships to arrive.
> 
> BEWARE:  It's a long burn-in process (100-150 hours) and the tubes will vacillate between good, bad, and wonderful several times over the course of the burn-in.  Don't give up on them -- give them the time they need.  Just keep saying to yourself -- Patience is a virtue.  Good things come to those that wait, etc.


8 of them?!?!
A true hoarder 
Did you test all 8 of them? Any issues with any of them? I ordered 2 and if they’re both good - I’ll be a happy camper.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 16, 2018)

Tested all and there are no issues.  My tubes came with a sticker on each indicating the grid plate voltage and GM.  They will likely not be perfectly balanced triodes, but they will fall in the Good to Very Good range. This seller was recommended to me by the king of all hoarders, @bcowen.  He likely has them by the 1,000s.


----------



## Zachik

Are newer Russian tubes (from the 70s) any good?!
The Russian seller for the 1953 Fotons also sells (cheaper) tubes from the 70s. Not clear what brand... Not asking instead of the 1953 Fotons, but in addition to. 

Waste of money?


----------



## Dogmatrix

Zachik said:


> Are newer Russian tubes (from the 70s) any good?!
> The Russian seller for the 1953 Fotons also sells (cheaper) tubes from the 70s. Not clear what brand... Not asking instead of the 1953 Fotons, but in addition to.
> 
> Waste of money?


Russian stuff in general is good up to the fall of the soviet union and the wall in 90 ,91 . After that everything went a bit off the rails for a while


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I suspect you've put many tube sellers' kids through college with your 'collecting'.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> @Zachik : as cheap as the 50's stuff still is, I'd stay with that rather than save the (very) few dollars on the 70's production. Just my opinion...


Thanks for the tip. I was not looking to save a few $$$ but rather ADD 70s tubes in addition to the 50s Fotons. I will just stay with the Fotons and use that money towards something else then


----------



## chef8489

I still need a D getter Westinghouse and ribbed futon.


----------



## Zachik

Just got WH D-getter from eBay yesterday. Should be shipped today......


----------



## ProfFalkin

Finally got a backup WH-D.  Now I have to burn it in and see how it sounds in my Dragon Inspire, seeing as I have two now.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> Finally got a backup WH-D.  Now I have to burn it in and see how it sounds in my Dragon Inspire, seeing as I have two now.


Oh my!  The Dragon Inspire is my dream amp.  I will hopefully own that amp some day


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Amp hoarder.


I only have 5 amps.  ;P


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> I only have 5 amps.  ;P



Me too, I thought 5 was novice/entry level


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 17, 2018)

Tube rich and HP amp poor?  You'll find no pity here, HOARDER!!!


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> Ok,ok...I guess if I count all the amps in the house I have more than 5.  But I only have _1_ headphone amp.  Just one, and one is the loneliest number I've ever heard.  Appears that I'm pretty underprivileged.  If anybody wants to start a GoFundMe drive so I can get some more amps, I promise not to mind.


I have one headphone amp, one pair of headphones now, and think 5 or 6 tubes total. 2 pairs of iems and one portable player.


----------



## FLTWS

chef8489 said:


> I have one headphone amp, one pair of headphones now, and think 5 or 6 tubes total. 2 pairs of iems and one portable player.



Good start, after all, Rome wasn't built in a day.
Seriously though, after 50 years with audio one thing I learned early, always have a backup for everything, sooner or later ...


----------



## chef8489

FLTWS said:


> Good start, after all, Rome wasn't built in a day.
> Seriously though, after 50 years with audio one thing I learned early, always have a backup for everything, sooner or later ...


Good start lol. I have been with head-FI for 13 years and at this for well over 20. Was mostly into portable, but had to downsize everything recently.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> Wait....how do you _down_size from portable?


No not just portable lol. I had more full size cans as well. Meant quantity. I had a decent collection of portable gear and full sized cans. Had to sell most of it off. Stuff not in my sig.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> Ahhh...so you _de_-accumulated.  I signed up for a class on that this fall.


Yep


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> Ahhh...so you _de_-accumulated.  I signed up for a class on that this fall.



I failed that class.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 17, 2018)

It's an on-line remedial course for me.  U of Phoenix will give me partial credit for having involuntarily de-accumulated 20 years ago.


----------



## ProfFalkin

I rolled through a few tubes today, kind of a refresher on what the others sound like.   I haven't reviewed my initial impressions on these, so it will be interesting to see what I think of them now -vs- back then.

KenRad VT-231 clear glass, staggered black plates:   Treble rolled off.  Not debilitatingly so, but immediately apparent vs the WH-D.  Well extended bass, hits hard.  Mids pretty neutral.  Staging wider than some, not very deep.  Might be great match with phones that lean to the bright side - not so good with Eikons.  That might buck current opinions here, but... I just call it as I hear it.

Raytheon 6SN7GTB w/ round spikey micah & top halo getter:  More mids than KR VT231, slightly more treble, bass seems rolled by comparison.   Staging more in your head.  Tonally more balanced IMO, just doesn't extend super-far to either end.  Tube seems a tad bit quieter than the others as well.

TungSol 6SN7GTB, Black angled T plates, round spikey micah & top D getter:  Just behind the KR VT231 in bass slam and extension, better treble extension which doesn't sound rolled off as much, but the mids have a bit of a recessed sound in male vocals and some metal gutar.  Staging is pretty good.  Kind of a slight U shaped tube.   Probably a terrible match for the TH-X00, but could be good with a HD650.

Westinghouse Reliatron D-Getter:  Best tonality of the bunch.  Treble not rolled.  KR has better bass quantity, but WH-D is no slouch and provides better quality (IMO).  Staging better than KR, and has slightly better depth.   Sounds richer and more detailed than KR to me.  Best at macro and microdynamics of the 4.  It just seems to be the most neutral yet musical of the tubes I have.   My clear cut favorite, I won't lie.

Personal Rankings:   WH-D >>> KR-231 >= Raytheon >> TS.

Revisiting these, I'd say the Raytheon and KR are kind-of for 2nd, depending on which headphone you've got paired with them.   On a bright headphone like the HD800, I'd take the KR.   On a more U or V shaped headphone like the TH-X00, I'd probably take the Raytheon as it edges out the KR in mids, and headstage isn't great on those headphones anyway.   The KR rocks the Raytheon in staging.   

The TS is not a bad tube, it's just kind of... average.  

The WH-D is just great.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 18, 2018)

Thanks.  Very nice comparison.

I'm still trying to settle in on one tube to rule them all.  I've been really spending time with the 50's Sylvania 6SN7WGTA (brown base / umbrella mica) and the 40's Sylvania 6SN7W black base / tall boy tubes.  They are really balanced w/ a nice SLAM and nicely extended treble and bass w/ open airy mids.  I'm giving these a bit more time to get over the 'new' factor and to settle in on critiquing them against the other key players KR, WH D, and Foton...

... But for now these Sylvie tubes certainly have me wow'ed -- especially the 6SN7W.  I'm hearing nuances and small details in my music that I hadn't noticed before!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Nice comparison.
> 
> I'm still trying to settle in on one tube to rule them all.  I've been really spending time with the 50's Sylvania 6SN7WGTA (brown base) and the 40's Sylvania 6SN7W black base / tall boy tubes.  They are really balanced w/ a nice SLAM and nicely extended treble and bass w/ open airy mids.  I'm giving these a bit more time to get over the 'new' factor and to settle in on critiquing them against the other key players KR, WH D, and Foton...
> 
> ... But for now these Sylvie tubes certainly have me wow'ed -- especially the 6SN7W  I'm hearing nuances and small details in my music that I hadn't noticed before!


I keep eyeballing those on ebay and other sites, but the prices are beyond stupid.

Let us know what you think!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 18, 2018)

Yeah -- Suffice it to say, I was VERY lucky!   I was able to snag 2x 6SN7W black/base tall bottles for under $50 each.  No way I'm paying $150+ for one tube. 

Katy bar the door if they are metal base W's or A's !!  



Hoping to snag a deal on the W short-bottle to see if I can tell a difference.  Supposedly short-bottle has slightly better detail while tall bottle has slightly more slam.


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> I rolled through a few tubes today, kind of a refresher on what the others sound like.   I haven't reviewed my initial impressions on these, so it will be interesting to see what I think of them now -vs- back then.
> 
> KenRad VT-231 clear glass, staggered black plates:   Treble rolled off.  Not debilitatingly so, but immediately apparent vs the WH-D.  Well extended bass, hits hard.  Mids pretty neutral.  Staging wider than some, not very deep.  Might be great match with phones that lean to the bright side - not so good with Eikons.  That might buck current opinions here, but... I just call it as I hear it.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty much in agreement with your assessments. Given my experiences to date with 13 different 6SN7 types (with bargain priced Fotons and Baldwin Organ Tubes in the mail), its clear  me to me there will be no major revelations at this point. The differences in most cases are not life altering and boil down to personal preference in sound characteristics, and, as you say, how that sound meshes with the sound  characteristics of ones related chain of electronics and transducer. 

Time to return to regularly schedule program of music until the next piece of Schiit makes it to market. I'd still go for a balanced in/out LYR3 HP amp / preamp with the same Passive / JFET/ Tube-Tube options as Freya, stepped/remote volume optional. And a Schiit CD Transport spinner. Really, that's all I want!


----------



## buonassi

FLTWS said:


> its clear me to me there will be no major revelations at this point. The differences in most cases are not life altering and boil down to personal preference in sound characteristics, and, as you say, how that sound meshes with the sound characteristics of ones related chain of electronics and transducer.



This phrase right here, nails it.  Well done.


----------



## ilikepooters

But none of you have tried the uber expensive swedish 33S30B yet


----------



## FLTWS

ilikepooters said:


> But none of you have tried the uber expensive swedish 33S30B yet



You may be right. I'll PM you my address so you can mail me one to evaluate.


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## Ripper2860 (Jul 19, 2018)

I've been a bad, bad boy ...

I snagged a couple of strong and supposedly pretty well balanced Sylvania 6SN7GT tubes with an 052 (1950) year code. (I know, but I scored them at $15.00 for the pair.)

Anyhow -- these are 2- hole 'Bad Boy' style (I know they're not real Bad Boys) and they have a raised bottom mica, and bottom getter chrome flashing, black base and green labeling with the classic 6SN7GT in a stop-sign logo on the glass.  Do any of you fine folks have any additional info on this year.  I seem to find a lot about Sylvie VT-321, W's, A's and 52 GT's, but not much about this year. 

And I snagged a 1950 legit Chrome Dome made for Magnavox (with Sylvania MFG code).  Yeah, I really need help!!  

I'll also post in the Tube Addict thread, but here's a pic ...


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## ProfFalkin (Jul 19, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> Do any of you fine folks have any additional info on this year.


Not much.  I think those Sylvies you picked up are probably one of the more common 6sn7s out there.   I've seen tons of them.   It's not to say they sound bad.  They probably sound pretty good.  Most Sylvania tubes do.


They probably don't sound as good as this, but... who knows.


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## Ripper2860 (Jul 19, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> They probably sound pretty good. Most Sylvania tubes do.



They have a nice sound, but I have not spent a great deal of time with them yet.



ProfFalkin said:


> They probably don't sound as good as this, but... who knows.



I've heard that that tube really brings one to tears when listening.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860

I'm a COLLECTOR, dammit!!


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860

Thanks, but I'll just keep outsourcing my tube testing.


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## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> I've been a bad, bad boy ...
> 
> I snagged a couple of strong and supposedly pretty well balanced Sylvania 6SN7GT tubes with an 052 (1950) year code. (I know, but I scored them at $15.00 for the pair.)


$15 for a pair is practically free! So you were not really a bad boy today... On the other hand - I was, spending $60 on a single Ken Rad VT-231...



Ripper2860 said:


> I'm a COLLECTOR, dammit!!


Yeah... I am starting to become a collector, too. My wallet is not a happy camper...


----------



## Zachik

Any thoughts on using Pelican 1085 Laptop Case With Foam (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006C21MCU/) for storing tubes (with or without boxes)?
I *think* internal depth is sufficient (approx. 2 inches).  Probably can store 10-12 tubes in it... Thoughts?!


----------



## Ripper2860

Zachik said:


> $15 for a pair is practically free! So you were not really a bad boy today... On the other hand - I was, spending $60 on a single Ken Rad VT-231...
> 
> 
> Yeah... I am starting to become a collector, too. My wallet is not a happy camper...



$60 for a good VT-231 KR tube is practically free, as well!!  OK -- maybe not practically free, but a very good deal.


----------



## Zachik

Being a relatively tube newb, a question for the experts here:
when I see a tube with *Test Values: 21xx / 25xx *(out of 2600 for new)... what does it mean?!  
Does that imply left and right channels would be imbalanced?!  Or for Lyr3 which is a non-balanced amp it does not mean anything?


----------



## ProfFalkin

How about... Tubus XII Gradus Programmata... Supremus?


No, too long.   Hmm... well, I'm sure we will think of something.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jul 20, 2018)

Zachik said:


> Being a relatively tube newb, a question for the experts here:
> when I see a tube with *Test Values: 21xx / 25xx *(out of 2600 for new)... what does it mean?!
> Does that imply left and right channels would be imbalanced?!  Or for Lyr3 which is a non-balanced amp it does not mean anything?


Ok... here is where the term balanced gets used in different ways, and has absolutely no relation to each other.

Read this:   http://vrps.org/documents/Gm vs mu.pdf

Here are some important bits from that article.  Talking about GM or MU in tubes...


> ... the exact mathematical definitions are in terms of things developed in calculus courses, called partial derivatives.
> 
> Gm is the ratio between the plate current change and the grid to cathode voltage change with plate to cathode voltage held constant. If we call Ip the plate current, and Vg the grid voltage, then
> 
> ...



Ok, did you get all that?     GREAT!   Now throw it all out the window, because you don't need it.  (I'm a jerk, I know.)  The Lyr 3 will automatically balance differences between triodes, ensuring that there is no mismatch in volume.   This is called Auto Bias.

Now... let's talk about balanced as it relates to amplifiers.   The term "balanced" can be used in two ways, generally speaking.   The first relates to the interconnects, and the second to the design or topology of the amplifier itself. 

Where it relates to the interconnects (the cable connecting DAC to amp) two "balanced" cables are used to transfer the stereo signal.   The real secret here is that these cables have dedicated shielding and grounding which are completely separate from the audio signal and amplification system.  Any noise that does make it into the cable won't matter due to the way that the audio signal is being passed through it.  That makes them practically immune to noise like RF and EMI.    It also doubles the number of wires required to pass the signal.  If you want to know how this works, do some Google searches for "*Differential Signal Audio*" and "Common Mode Rejection".   This is a good video explaining the differences in cables, but it doesn't touch on exactly how the noise is rejected.  If you want more info, watch this 4 video series.

When someone says "balanced amp", it can be very misleading.  The amp might have balanced audio cable connections, but is the internal amplifier topology of the amplifier itself discretely balanced?   Often times, I would bet it is not.  For the amp to be completely balanced, it would need four (yes, four) discrete amplifiers inside - one for each of the following signals:  Left +, Left -, Right + and Right -.  This one is easier to find information about, so I'll let you do research on "Fully Balanced Amplifier Design", "Dual Mono" and other such terms.  

Or, for a general summary on all of the above, just go read this.


----------



## Zachik

Zachik said:


> Being a relatively tube newb, a question for the experts here:
> when I see a tube with *Test Values: 21xx / 25xx *(out of 2600 for new)... what does it mean?!
> Does that imply left and right channels would be imbalanced?!  Or for Lyr3 which is a non-balanced amp it does not mean anything?





ProfFalkin said:


> The Lyr 3 will automatically balance differences between triodes, ensuring that there is no mismatch in volume. This is called Auto Bias.



Sooooo........... bottom line is said tube should work just fine when used in my Lyr3 ?


----------



## ProfFalkin

Zachik said:


> Sooooo........... bottom line is said tube should work just fine when used in my Lyr3 ?


Yes.   You won't want a tube where the triodes show more than about a 20% difference.   Auto bias can only do so much.  21xx/25xx listed on the tube you mentioned is just fine.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Crap.  Ebay seller sent me the wrong tube.  I usually despise the return process, but we'll see how it goes.   The hunt for a backup WH-D continues.


----------



## Ripper2860

That just plain sucks.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> Crap.  Ebay seller sent me the wrong tube.  I usually despise the return process, but we'll see how it goes.   The hunt for a backup WH-D continues.


Bummer!  I have an open case with ebay at the moment, because my 2 BadBoy's have not even shipped and I paid 7 days ago.  Got to love sellers on Ebay!


----------



## ilikepooters

Wes S said:


> Bummer!  I have an open case with ebay at the moment, because my 2 BadBoy's have not even shipped and I paid 7 days ago.  Got to love sellers on Ebay!



Seller probbly gone on vacation, hate it when they do that. Why can't they make the listing end nearer to when they can post stuff?


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

ProfFalkin said:


> Yes.   You won't want a tube where the triodes show more than about a 20% difference.   Auto bias can only do so much.  21xx/25xx listed on the tube you mentioned is just fine.





bcowen said:


> The Professor summed things up nicely as usual. I'll just add that I've probably tested a couple thousand tubes in my audio lifetime, and of all those there's maybe 5% of them where the Gm on both triodes matched exactly.  So a perfect match is the exception rather than the rule.  Those with less than a 10% difference in readings between triodes I keep in the primo stash, and anything more than 20% I give away to people like Ripper.



Well, in this case it is very close to 20%... hmmm......
BTW, on the subject of someone mentioned he got the wrong tube - I just got my WH tube the other day. How do I verify it is the D-Getter? (embarrassed to admit I do not even know what the getter is...  )


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Jul 20, 2018)

bcowen said:


> I keep in the primo stash, and anything more than 20% I give away to people like Ripper.



There's a word for people like you, however my respect for the forum rules and the need for decorum does not allow me to state it here.  Suffice it to say that it rhymes with Brick Shed!!


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## ProfFalkin

Zachik said:


> Well, in this case it is very close to 20%... hmmm......
> BTW, on the subject of someone mentioned he got the wrong tube - I just got my WH tube the other day. How do I verify it is the D-Getter? (embarrassed to admit I do not even know what the getter is...  )



The getter is the part of the tube that creates the silver flashing.   It is heated by induction when the tube is made.  This process removes excess gasses and impurities from the tube.

A Halo getter in a WH tube:






A D-getter in a TungSol tube: 





There are many different kinds.


----------



## FLTWS

Excellent shots!


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> This weekend's tube flavor. Both have been cooking in the CBI for about 60 hours with Tchaikovsky's 1812 on repeat.
> On the right, a 50's vintage Tung-Sol 7N7. On the left, a 50's Tung-Sol 6SN7GT, mouse ears.  This is by far the brightest tube I've yet tried...almost lights the room.   Not sure if that's a characteristic of this Tung Sol variety, or whether this particular tube just has the filaments sticking above the plates higher than usual.
> 
> 
> ...


I have been curious about those mouse ears for a while.    Let us know how they sound please!   =)


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 20, 2018)

OK.  Just to recap my latest additions that I'm breaking-in before seriously critiquing ...

1x 1952 Sylvania 6SN7WGTA (that makes 3.  I'm a bit enamored with the sound of these.)
1x 1952 legit Chrome Dome (labeled as Magnavox, but has the Sylvania MFG code) (Initial listen reveals its a very nice tube.  Some say better than the legit '52 6SN7GT Bad Boy)
2x 1950 Sylvania 6SN7 GT (bad-boy types, but not true bad boys)
1x 1940's JAN VT-231 Sylvania 6SN7GT
2x 1940's Sylvania 6SN7W Tall Bottle / Black Base (These are amazing.  Saving these for when the kids and wife are out and I can immerse myself into my music)
On my list to complete my tube-rolling journey is ...

CBS/Hytron 5692 ( see this @bcowen )
RCA Silver Label 6SN7GTB Side Getter
Maybe a Tung-Sol round plates (if I happen to run across a steal or non-Tungsol branded variant)

Hello -- I'm Richard and I'm a Tube Roller Addict ...


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> OK.  Just to recap my latest additions that I'm breaking-in before seriously critiquing ...
> 
> 1x 1952 Sylvania 6SN7WGTA (that makes 3.  I'm a bit enamored with the sound of these.)
> 1x 1952 legit Chrome Dome (labeled as Magnavox, but has the Sylvania MFG code) (Initial listen reveals its a very nice tube.  Some say better than the legit '52 6SN7GT Bad Boy)
> ...


You may be there first person here to WANT to try a GE tube.  Hehehe


----------



## Ripper2860

Dammit.  It may be RCA.  I'll double-check before I buy ...  

I may just get a GE anyway.  Gotta know how bad, bad can be to fully appreciate good, right??


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Ripper2860 said:


> OK.  Just to recap my latest additions that I'm breaking-in before seriously critiquing ...
> 
> 1x 1952 Sylvania 6SN7WGTA (that makes 3.  I'm a bit enamored with the sound of these.)
> 1x 1952 legit Chrome Dome (labeled as Magnavox, but has the Sylvania MFG code) (Initial listen reveals its a very nice tube.  Some say better than the legit '52 6SN7GT Bad Boy)
> ...




yeah if you ever sell the sylvania 1952 tube i might buy it back from ya,,, its a very unique smooth sound indeed. i kinda miss it honestly.


----------



## Ripper2860

Did you sell it on e-bay??  I thought I bought the KR black glass from you via this forum.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I read about 1 guy buying rebranded as Admiral for $60 -- for 2 of them.  PICs were identical to Tung-Sol.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Thinking of selling a bunch of tubes.  Going to stick with a few pairs, liquidate the rest.

Might be selling my Dragon Inspire too.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> If that GE _doesn't_ suck, please let us know immediately (it's probably a fake).    And if you happen to run across a steal on a Tung-Sol round plate, please buy two (one for me). These things are way outta my price range, but I've always wanted to hear one.



LOL!


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

now where to start hmm.........lol lots of pages to read. mine came with a basic 6ns7gt tube


----------



## caenlenfromOCN

Ripper2860 said:


> Did you sell it on e-bay??  I thought I bought the KR black glass from you via this forum.



oh lol, I sold both my sylvanias to two different sellers on this site, sorry got names confused.  yeah you were a KR guy.  i love my KR too  i dont even tube swap anymore, my KR just stays in there 24.7


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Selling the Dragon? Why?  'Cause you have two?
> 
> Dennis won't be happy....any more than me using one of his preamps to burn in tubes for a piece of Schitt. LOL!


It gets the least use.  

I really like it though.  It also fits a unique niche in my setup.  Still undecided.


----------



## chef8489

ProfFalkin said:


> Thinking of selling a bunch of tubes.  Going to stick with a few pairs, liquidate the rest.
> 
> Might be selling my Dragon Inspire too.


Hey if you have a Westinghouse d getter we can talk. Might be something else might be interested in.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I have several. I'll pay you to take them.



Deal.  Name your offer.  I'm thinking you pay me $10 and shipping.


----------



## Ripper2860

caenlenfromOCN said:


> oh lol, I sold both my sylvanias to two different sellers on this site, sorry got names confused.  yeah you were a KR guy.  i love my KR too  i dont even tube swap anymore, my KR just stays in there 24.7



You could do far worse that settling on the KR.


----------



## ProfFalkin

chef8489 said:


> Hey if you have a Westinghouse d getter we can talk. Might be something else might be interested in.


I'll go through them and let you know which ones I'm willing to part with.

I can tell you now, my WH-Ds aren't going up for sale.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Umm.  No that's the disposal fee.  If I have to listen to them it would be an additolionsl $10 per minute.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 20, 2018)

Deleted


----------



## Zachik

Is that the right tube?  Is that a D-Getter (circled in red)?


----------



## Ripper2860

Ripper2860 said:


> OK.  Just to recap my latest additions that I'm breaking-in before seriously critiquing ...
> 
> 1x 1952 Sylvania 6SN7WGTA (that makes 3.  I'm a bit enamored with the sound of these.)
> 1x 1952 legit Chrome Dome (labeled as Magnavox, but has the Sylvania MFG code) (Initial listen reveals its a very nice tube.  Some say better than the legit '52 6SN7GT Bad Boy)
> ...




Correction -- RCA Silver Label side getter tube -- not GE.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 22, 2018)

Zachik said:


> Is that the right tube?  Is that a D-Getter (circled in red)?



That's a D getter, but the one you want is the TOP getter with the chrome flashing at the top of the tube.  The one you show here a bottom getter -- not top getter.  WH D top getter is the desired tube.,​


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> That's a D getter, but the one you want is at the TOP getter with the chrome flashing at the top of the tube.  The one you show here a bottom getter -- not top getter.  WH D top getter is the desired tube.,​


Sigh 
And I thought I actually got the right one... too many factors!!! Really frustrating (and expensive due to all the mistakes) to us newbs...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 21, 2018)

That's part of the learning process.  Technically, I'm still a newby, as I've only had a tube amp a few months.  What really matters is what you like.  The right tube or the wrong tube really depends on what you think and what your sound preferences are.    Heck -- you may have found the next big thing with the bottom D getter WH tube.  I know it makes no sense coming from me, a Tube rolling addict, but what really matters in whether a tube is THE TUBE or not THE TUBE, is what you think.  If you like it, that's all that matters.  There are way too many variables and the only one that can decide if a tube is THE PERFECT TUBE, is you!


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jul 20, 2018)

Zachik said:


> Sigh
> And I thought I actually got the right one... too many factors!!! Really frustrating (and expensive due to all the mistakes) to us newbs...


My advice... Listen to that tube for a while.  If you like it, you like it.  That's all that counts.  Compare it to the stock tube.  Figure out what you don't like, if anything, and decide what you want to change in the sound.  Go from there in choosing your next tube. 

Besides, it's not about which tubes are "best".  It's about which tube best matches with your headphone.  For example, you wouldn't want the Ken Rad VT-231 (which is very popular on this thread) paired with the AQ Nighthawk.  It's just way too dark.   But I bet that tube matches very well with the HD800 or Ether Flow.

You could go on a tube buying spree, but I'd be a bit more pragmatic about the process.

Edit:  Yeah, what Ripper said.


----------



## ProfFalkin

The top right tube is the D getter WH.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lyr...iscussion-thread.875185/page-23#post-14161468


----------



## ilikepooters

Raytheon 6SN7WGT turned up, slightly different construction than the Westinghouse branded 6SN7WGT but i might be reaching here, difference is minute.







Otherwise identical tubes apart from that fiol bit wedged between the posts, maybe a different batch?

About to give the Raytheon a listed, see if it sounds same as Westinghouse variant.


----------



## Zer0.p0int.Zer0

Just noticed that the base of my Ken-Rad tube is cracked. Definitely wasn’t like that when I put it in. I’m guessing it may be due to heat?

It it a problem? It still sounds good.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zer0.p0int.Zer0

bcowen said:


> As long as the tube's glass is still firmly attached to the base it's not a problem. However, it will likely become a problem as the only way to remove the tube from the Lyr is by grasping the tube by the glass. If the glass and base detach from each other, you'll be pulling on the wires between the tubes innards and the base's pins, and they will break easily. As big as the crack is, I'd suggest some Krazy Glue and then wrapping it as tight as you can with some heat resistant tape




That’s what I was afraid of. Thanks for the ideas. I’ll give the krazy glue and tape a try.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Initial impressions of the Tung-Sols:
> 
> Mouse ear: A couple notches below 'meh.'  Slow, plodding, midrange recessed, all the excitement of listening to a wet spaghetti noodle fall on a plate. To be fair, I got this tube for $12 delivered from Ebay, listed by the seller as "Used, tests good."  Would have been more accurately described as "Used, doesn't test bad." It hits the 'minimum good' values on my tester but _just_ hits them (where most 6SN7's read around 2x the minimum value). So it's possible this tube is just worn out and well past its prime. It's also possible that one with better test readings sounds the same.    Either way, I don't hear anything that makes me want to rush out and buy more.
> 
> ...



I already have a Sylviania 7N7 on my list and was going to broach the subject of an adapter with you via PM.  So what do you suggest?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> I've purchased several adapters from this seller and they've all been nicely constructed and worked fine.  Delivery takes a while (3 weeks).
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-Convert-Tube-Socket-7n7-Tube-Top-TO-6sn7-Bottom-Tube-DIY-Adapter-Socket/232290785686?hash=item36159c1996:g:VTUAAOSwRXRZRnBg&_sacat=0&_nkw=7n7+adapter&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0|0


I don't know if there is a wide variety of 7N7 tubes though?  I haven't seen many.  That's the only thing that's kept me from trying them - getting an adapter just for 2 or 3 tubes I may or may not like.

Thoughts?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Jul 23, 2018)

Not gonna do it ...   Just yet!!  

On a somewhat related note ...

I think I'm becoming a Sylvania man.  My latest flurry of tube buying has really introduced me to  a few tubes I'm really, really growing to like ...

*Sylvania 6SN7WGTA  brown base ('50-'55) *-- A nicely balanced tube with a very good and wide soundstage and nice slam.  A slightly forward midrange and nice crisp highs.  Wonderfully enjoyable and one that gets the most play, for now.

*Sylvania 6SN7GT ('50) 2-hole Bad-Boy type construction*  -- Nicely balanced top to bottom with a nice soundstage, although not as wide as WGTA.  A nice tight bass with a bit more moderate midrange being a bit less prominent than the WGTA.  A very enjoyable tube and one that may move up as I give it more listening time.

*Sylvania/Magnavox  6SN7GT ('52) Chrome Dome *--  This is a legit Chrome Dome with med. bottle and top chrome flashing almost completely covering the glass tube, obscuring the innards.  It's a very nice tube.  A wider soundstage than the above with wonderful 'air' and placement of instruments.  A nice bit of slam and extended bass without being heavy or plodding.  Some say it is slightly better than the true Bad Boy and exceeded only by the the 6SN7A/W.  Highly recommended.  (Hard to find real Chrome Domes, so I listen to these when I'm going to really listen and enjoy my music.)

*Sylvania 6SN7W (40's tall bottle, black base)* -- Incredible soundstage width with an exceptionally open and airy presentation.  Very nicely extended bass with a good amount of punch and slam.  Nicely balance mids and highs with a nice non-fatiguing sparkle.  Almost a 3D presentation of instrument and voice placement that had me looking around the room and wondering "where did that come from?".  Live recordings put me right in the middle of the audience with sounds and applause all around.  A fabulous tube.  Hard to find and not cheap, but it is highly recommended. The best of the bunch!!  (I listen to this one when I'm home all by myself and it's nice and quiet, so I can really, really appreciate what it brings.  Given the rarity and cost, I'm not wasting this tube, just as I would not waste a fine wine.)

I have a 40's Sylvania JAN VT-231 6SN7GT on the way from Brent Jesse and will report back on that one to let y'all know where it sits in my tube pecking order.

Remember -- This is my humble opinion.  YMMV.  Your ears, preferences, headphones, and other gear all make a difference and can result in you either agreeing with my assessment or in you calling me out as full of schiit.


----------



## wasupdog

I'm curious to know how the Sylvania Bad Boy stacks up to the VT-231.  I'm sure there were posts I missed but wondering what anyone thinks about comparing them directly.  I'm currently using the Bad Boy.


----------



## FLTWS

These arrived today from TubeMonger for 6SN7 pin types. Look to be of the same high quality as the 6DJ8 pin types I got from them 2 years ago.






 Just in case and to insure a proper fit should I go for;


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 23, 2018)

Well. folks.  I'll be silent in this thread for a bit.  My Lyr 3 let the magic smoke out yesterday and is on its way across the rainbow bridge to Schiit's capable service department.  Keeping my fingers crossed for a quick turn-around and a Jason autographed bottom plate for the trouble.  

Thankfully, I never sold my Magni 3


----------



## FLTWS

I'd be curious to know how or why. New tube trial?


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Well. folks.  I'll be silent in this thread for a bit.  My Lyr 3 let the magic smoke out yesterday and is on its way across the rainbow bridge to Schiit's capable service department.  Keeping my fingers crossed for a quick turn-around and a Jason autographed bottom plate for the trouble.
> 
> Thankfully, I never sold my Magni 3


Sorry to hear that! What happened?


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Well. folks.  I'll be silent in this thread for a bit.  My Lyr 3 let the magic smoke out yesterday and is on its way across the rainbow bridge to Schiit's capable service department.  Keeping my fingers crossed for a quick turn-around and a Jason autographed bottom plate for the trouble.
> 
> Thankfully, I never sold my Magni 3


Oh no!  

What was the suspected culprit?   Did you pull a Levi and plug all your tubes in at the same time?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 23, 2018)

Yes!!  I was strapping tubes for mono.  Are you NOT supposed to do that??  


OK, serously.  It's too painful for me to discuss right now.  Please allow me an appropriate time to grieve.


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> Oh no!
> 
> What was the suspected culprit?   Did you pull a Levi and plug all your tubes in at the same time?



LOL, that's just wrong!


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 23, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> Well. folks.  I'll be silent in this thread for a bit.  My Lyr 3 let the magic smoke out yesterday and is on its way across the rainbow bridge to Schiit's capable service department.  Keeping my fingers crossed for a quick turn-around and a Jason autographed bottom plate for the trouble.
> 
> Thankfully, I never sold my Magni 3



Like I've said for years, you always need a plan B backup if your an audiophile.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## MrPretty

bcowen said:


> So what tube are they adapting to?  Can't see in the photo...



I believe these are just socket savers, not adapters.


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## FLTWS (Jul 23, 2018)

bcowen said:


> So what tube are they adapting to?  Can't see in the photo...



Ah, sorry, they are lifters not adapters. If I go with a strange bottle shaped tube at some point that the opening in the top lid won't allow full seating of I'll be prepared.
I don't really worry about the heat without lifters and find un-powdered latex exam gloves grab glass and don't slip making removal easy of 6SN7 types or the smaller signal 6DJ8's and 12AU7's types I have.in other units. As for wear on the board socket, once I settle in
I usually stick with 2 or 3 tubes long term after that. I usually run one those three for weeks at a time before changing, and I always pull them after the units been
off all night and all metal cold and contracted - makes withdrawal easy without a lot of easing around.

If Schiit were to make a 2 or 4 tube 6SN7 amp I could use I might consider the lifters long term if heat seemed excessive with that many valves on the line.


----------



## FLTWS

Curiosity question for those in the know;
The 4 Fotons I got came with white labels affixed to the bases with some measurements written on them.
I'm guessing "T" stands for transconductance and "S" for side or half?
Looks like #1 & #3 are a pair, and #2 & #4 are a pair, or not?

My FOTON’s  measurements as shown on each tube






I listened to #2 last night, right out of the box and with only 30 to 40 minutes warm up it sounded really, really good!
Trying #1 today.


----------



## Phantaminum

FLTWS said:


> Curiosity question for those in the know;
> The 4 Fotons I got came with white labels affixed to the bases with some measurements written on them.
> I'm guessing "T" stands for transconductance and "S" for side or half?
> Looks like #1 & #3 are a pair, and #2 & #4 are a pair, or not?
> ...



The Fotons continue to be my favorite tube in this amp from a price to performance ratio. The Sylvania 6sn7w metal base is fantastic but the price is exorbitant unless you find a great deal. The metal base tube also runs very hot (once it's pulled out it'll burn you holding on to it for a few seconds) compared to any of my other tubes.

Looks like there's a synergy issue with NOS Tung Sols 6SN7s. They are probably my favorite tubes in other amps but on the Lyr 3 it feels held back. I'll give these some more time on this amp as it's not fully burned in.

RCA 6SN7GTBs are OK. Reminds me of the TH-X00 sound signature. V-shaped with bit too much sparkle for me at the high end. Hope this smooths out with more time.

I have Mickey Ear Tung Sols 6SN7s and Toshiba 6SN7s which I'll be trying next. 

Gear: PC --> Eitr --> Gumby --> Lyr 3 --> ZMF Auteurs w/ preforated Eikon Pads


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Jul 24, 2018)

I wish I could listen to my Foton tubes.   Wait.  Why am I even here? I have no Lyr 3 at the moment.  Why do I insist on torturing myself?

My advice to you Lyr 3 owners:  Appreciate your Lyr 3.  Tell it how much you love it, every day without fail!!  It is when you no longer have it that you come to realize how much it meant to you.

National Tequila day has not helped me forget -- it has only caused me to further remember what I no longer have.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Jul 24, 2018)

Your friendship is truly one that is beyond words.  If forced to find words to effectively communicate its meaning to me, a phrase rhyming w/ 'Brick Shed', while a shallow representation, must suffice due to my inability to fully communicate how I feel right now .


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 25, 2018)

LOL!

Back on topic, these 53' Foton's are a surprise. I've only listened to 3 of my 4 so far but the results so far are the same.
The bass seems almost as deep and full bodied as my Ken-Rad (and maybe is) and is perhaps a tad tighter. But the highs are very extended and extremely sweet (unlike my K-R which is a bit rolled-off) displaying very little to no glare at those points in my demo material where I might expect to hear it and it has the right amount of air on instruments like cymbals, tam-tams, and all types of drum thwacks.
It does not over emphasize any part of the frequency range so its sounds nicely balanced top to bottom which make it very easy to listen to for extended sessions. These are smooooth! I like they way they handle the upper ranges of horns and strings and vocals are very clear as well. Great dynamics too, handles those _ffff _passages better than most (and maybe all), and quiet enough that _pppp _ones don't get lost.

Really wasn't expecting them to sound this nice, and at such a reasonable price.

These were actually my first ever purchase on ebay. I sourced them from a link(s) mentioned earlier in this thread, placed my order 7/3 and they arrived from Russia on the 23rd.

Edit: this is the ebay source I got them from;
* Seller information*
 el-rayder (2286 )
100% Positive feedback

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8...173507?hash=item238a3dfc83:g:xmAAAOSwjpRavJ8e


----------



## Wes S

FLTWS said:


> LOL!
> 
> Back on topic, these 53' Foton's are a surprise. I've only listened to 3 of my 4 so far but the results so far are the same.
> The bass seems almost as deep and full bodied as my Ken-Rad (and maybe is) and is perhaps a tad tighter. But the highs are very extended and extremely sweet (unlike my K-R which is a bit rolled-off) displaying very little to no glare at those points in my demo material where I might expect to hear it and it has the right amount of air on instruments like cymbals, tam-tams, and all types of drum thwacks.
> ...


Your description of the foton, is spot on to what I am hearing with my WH d getter.  I think this is reflective on how awesome this amp is!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Picked up a CBS angled T plate 6sn7 this morning.   ... and a pair of Fotons.   (damn you @FLTWS )

Which reminds me, I need to pick the tubes I want to sell and post them here.   There are a few who expressed interest already, so they'll get first shot.   Pictures incoming this afternoon.


----------



## Wes S

So. . .My real "bad boys" never shipped and the ebay seller never responded to me, so I got a refund.  If it is too good to be true, it usually is!  So I took that refund and bought a Tung Sol - Black Glass - Round Plate - Oval Mica.  I am super stoked to give this tube a try and will report back!


----------



## ilikepooters

Ratheon 6SN7WGT has burned in (slightly) and it sounds identical to the Westinghouse branded 6SN7WGT to my ears.


Best tube i've heard so far by a country mile. Really plays well with HE-500's

Extends really well top and bottom with a somewhat neutral sound, no massive slam here from the bass but well textured and well controlled, highs have a slight sparkle but not at all fatiguing. Supreme detail speed and air in the treble, best i've heard yet from a tube.

Can't decide if the mids are a touch recessed, not in a bad way, maybe a very slight U shape to the sound, but can get away with it with the HE-500's warm(ish) nature


Imaging is fantastic, never heard sound so wide from HE-500 before.


Well worth a roll, definite toe tapper


----------



## FLTWS

ilikepooters said:


> Ratheon 6SN7WGT has burned in (slightly) and it sounds identical to the Westinghouse branded 6SN7WGT to my ears.
> 
> 
> Best tube i've heard so far by a country mile. Really plays well with HE-500's
> ...



Matching a tubes sound to your HP's sound (as well as everything else in your chain) is always a big part of getting to your sonic goal.

Reviews, impressions, pricing, availability; none of it matters if you don't like the end result.


----------



## Phantaminum

Wes S said:


> So. . .My real "bad boys" never shipped and the ebay seller never responded to me, so I got a refund.  If it is too good to be true, it usually is!  So I took that refund and bought a Tung Sol - Black Glass - Round Plate - Oval Mica.  I am super stoked to give this tube a try and will report back!



Hopefully you hear them differently from me. Could be my tube just needs more burn in but I found my 6SU7GTY as too laid back and almost veiled. I need to find my 6C8G to 6SN7 adapter to try the TS 6C8G that sounds like a much more refined Foton Ribbed tube (with more bass and I a more organic mid) in the Massdrop CTH with the Auteurs. Can't wait to hear your thoughts.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 25, 2018)

Phantaminum said:


> Hopefully you hear them differently from me. Could be my tube just needs more burn in but I found my 6SU7GTY as too laid back and almost veiled. I need to find my 6C8G to 6SN7 adapter to try the TS 6C8G that sounds like a much more refined Foton Ribbed tube (with more bass and I a more organic mid) in the Massdrop CTH with the Auteurs. Can't wait to hear your thoughts.


Are you talking about the round plate?  I am talking about the round plate with black glass starting at the base and not the black glass that starts a 3rd of the way up from the base.  If that makes any sense.


----------



## Phantaminum

Wes S said:


> Are you talking about the round plate?  I am talking about the round plate with black glass starting at the base and not the black glass that starts a 3rd of the way up from the base.  If that makes any sense.



It's the 6SL7 version of your BGRP. 

Information: http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=224785

Pic:


----------



## Wes S (Jul 25, 2018)

Phantaminum said:


> It's the 6SL7 version of your BGRP.
> 
> Information: http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=224785
> 
> Pic:


Cool that's the one I am talking about.  I will let you know what I think, after some burn in.  Mine has the steel grid post, instead of copper and oval mica.


----------



## skyline315

Someone else buy a Psvane tube and post impressions!  Come on, people. With all the money you dump on tubes, don't tell me you can't afford it.

I feel like I'm the only one at the party


----------



## Phantaminum

skyline315 said:


> Someone else buy a Psvane tube and post impressions!  Come on, people. With all the money you dump on tubes, don't tell me you can't afford it.
> 
> I feel like I'm the only one at the party



I've seen someone on another forum using the light bulb looking Psvane. Looks cute sticking out of their Lyr 3:


----------



## FLTWS

Deleted, double post


----------



## FLTWS

skyline315 said:


> Someone else buy a Psvane tube and post impressions!  Come on, people. With all the money you dump on tubes, don't tell me you can't afford it.
> 
> I feel like I'm the only one at the party



From where and how much?


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## skyline315

FLTWS said:


> From where and how much?


Usually around $100 for a pair.  You can resell the 2nd one if you don't want them both, I'm sure. Amazon Prime even has them, though I don't know anything about the seller.

There are some singles listed on ebay, but they ship from China.


----------



## Phantaminum (Jul 25, 2018)

bcowen said:


> So am I reading this right that you're using a 6SL7 equivalent in the Lyr?  Or is my reading comprehension flawed as usual?  I have a friggin' boatload of 6SL's, but never tried one in the Lyr due to the 3.5x gain increase over the 6SN....



I feel like Morpheus now. 

What if I was to tell you that gain doesn't matter much in hybrid amps.

Can't say that about tubes that look the same. A 6SN7 may sound great compared to it's 6SL7 counterpart and vice versa.

Edit: I'm sure it not an issue but I'd run it by Jason if his amp takes 6SL7 without detriment. Get word from the boss first.


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 25, 2018)

skyline315 said:


> Usually around $100 for a pair.  You can resell the 2nd one if you don't want them both, I'm sure. Amazon Prime even has them, though I don't know anything about the seller.
> 
> There are some singles listed on ebay, but they ship from China.



I've been looking at this:

http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/6sn7-uk-pair/  

But haven't decided whether or not to pull the trigger.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

I figure my Schiit holds its value best if I don't blow it up.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Phantaminum

Tung Sol 6C8G is much better behaved than the Tung Sol 6SU7GTY. The smooth and organic sound is coming through but unfortunately it's microphonic. I was hoping to test this against the MCTH but I think I have the adapter in storage (moving in a few weeks). From memory I prefer these much better in the MCTH. The cheaper Ribbed Fotons beat it in this application.

 

 Melz 1578 Metal Base 2 Hole sounds exacty like the Ribbed Fotons. Probably a tad more refined with the same big sounds stage. 

 

Toshiba 6SN7GTBs. Reminds me of an HD650 sound signature. Smooth, not fatiguing, small details come through more noticeably. Not sure what to think of these yet. Going to let these get a full burn in.


----------



## Ripper2860

Hmmmm.  The Toshiba GTB looks suspiciously like a made in Japan Channel Master GTB tube I have.


----------



## Phantaminum

Ripper2860 said:


> Hmmmm.  The Toshiba GTB looks suspiciously like a made in Japan Channel Master GTB tube I have.



Could be a Toshiba. The black plate Hitachis are nice too.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 26, 2018)

Funny you should mention Black Plate Hitachi, I also have a Hitachi flat-plate GTB with bottom box getter.  The CM and Hitachi seem to present a nice smooth sound profile.  I believe they are the only 2 Japanese made tubes I have.  They certainly do seem scarce.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 26, 2018)

A delivery of more tubes arrived today.  In the tube cornucopia were 2 tubes that have me scratching my head.   I didn't seek these tubes out, they just happened to be part of a 4 tube lot, but I'm curious, as they look to be in very good shape.  They are  Sylvania 6SN7GTA's w/ medium bottle, round mica spacers top/bottom (no spikes), black angled T plates, and a top chrome flashing (not fully extending like chrome dome -- just top 1/4), yellow lettering and logo on base.  These have what I think is a date code of BB and the other AF on the base next to the S in triangle w/ lightning bolt logo.  Anyone have a clue as to what the BB  and AF codes mean?  There are no other marking on the base other then the logo, Sylvania name, and the 2 letter codes.  Also -- the top of the glass envelope, 1 has a I4B under the 6SN7GTA stop sign, and the other has B4B.  Are any of these date codes and if so, can you tell me the years??

Thanks!!

I can't wait to get my Lyr 3 back.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 27, 2018)

Got the answer I needed in the 6SN7 Tube Addict thread of this very forum.  There are some definite tube gurus there, so if you are getting nowhere researching a 6SN7 tube, that's the place to go.  Posting the answer to my question here in case others would benefit ...



gibosi said:


> I have yet to find a key to Sylvania's two-letter date codes. My best guess is that these are either shipping dates or warranty dates as they were applied just before the tube was packed and shipped.
> 
> The three-digit etched codes located just below the hexagon are rather well-known and are likely manufacturing dates as the were applied in the factory. The first digit, a letter, is the month, the second digit, a number, is the year, and the third, a letter, is the factory.
> 
> ...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

As tempting as this is, I'm tapping the brakes on more tube purchases for a bit.

 Should come as no surprise, but I've bought from this seller.  Had no issues whatsoever.


----------



## FLTWS

Me too, 21 tubes / 17 different ones. May try a Psvane or Northern Electric at some point but I've got so many at this point its becoming one big blur.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 28, 2018)

TS BG RP - Is in my hand   and going in the amp this morning.   I will report back after some burn in.

Edit - TS BG RP is burning in now!


----------



## Wes S (Jul 28, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Just ran across a pair of what appear to be honest-to-goodness Bad Boys for less than $100. From the pictures it looks like they have all the necessary traits. I don't know the seller or anything else about the offering or the tubes -- just saw this and thought I'd pass it along. I thought for a moment about buying them, and then looked at the pile of 7N7's massing on my desk and said "NO MORE!"  (meaning _this_ week, of course).
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Sylvania-bad-boy-3-hole-Black-Plates-Round-Mica-Copper-Rod-6sn7gt-6sn7-tube/183332374526?hash=item2aaf7607fe:g:8u4AAOSwFZtbT45i&_sacat=0&_nkw=8sn7+tube&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0|0


Had my eye on that one, but just not sure those are any good with this amp?  All I have read suggest that they might be too warm for my sitiuation.


----------



## Phantaminum

Wes S said:


> TS BG RP - Is in my hand   and going in the amp this morning.   I will report back after some burn in.



Give it a 60 hours burn in and it'll open up....wide. The initial sound comes out a bit veiled but after a good time it starts to show its true character.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S (Jul 28, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Alms for the poor....or education for the ignorant, please:  TS=Tung Sol, RP= Round Plate....what's the BG?
> 
> Can't wait to hear your impressions...I've never heard a RP TS, and every time I try to snag one the prices are in the stratosphere.


BG = black glass

I got a good deal and had the funds, so I jumped on it


----------



## 441879 (Aug 2, 2018)

Thought I’d add my impressions to the discussion. First and most important comment: all the tubes I’ve listened to sound good when they’ve had at least 20 hours of break-in. The difference from one to the other are relatively small and are a matter of personal preference as much as anything.

Second comment: the Russian NOS is the default tube Schiit supplies with the amp. The TS 6SN7 GTB is the alternate tube Schiit supplies. The NOS Tung Sol is a 1953 6SN7 GT. Pics of each included.

Third comment: My set-up is as follows: Spotify or Tidal > Schiit Modi 2U > Schiit Loki (set to bypass for comparison) > Schiit Lyr3 > MrSpeakers Aeon Flow Closed (AFC) or Hifiman HE-400i.

Fourth comment: I’ve got a 1952 Sylvania 2 hole bad boy on the way. Will add that when I get it.



Russian NOS: great neutral tonal balance. Fantastic high end- smooth, detailed, but not at all fatiguing and doesn’t feel rolled off.  Mids are quite engrossing and incredibly detailed. Deep thick bass with no bloat or bloom. Soundstage is medium width with good placement of instruments. Very realistic rendering of voices and instruments. Seems to work much better with the the very balanced AFC than the 400i which sounds thinner and dryer.



NOS TS: Brighter at the top with a little grain. A little dry in presentation. Good percussion accompanying string plucks. Might work really well with dark phones. Could be fatiguing with bright phones but would probably work well with headphones which have a tendency towards bleeding bass into the mids. While Impact is bigger than russian NOS, quantity of bass feels less. Upper bass pulled back. Soundstage is outstanding- wide, deep and stable. Guitars sound awesome if not as tonally accurate as the NOS Russian. Needs more burn in time than the tubes Schiit furnishes for the top to soften up. I’ve only let it burn for about 24 hours total during which the highs have gone from too bright and a little harsh to softer and smoother. Still not to my taste- too dry.

EDIT: Somewhere around 70-80 hours this tube really blossomed. Tone has improved, soundstage has gotten better, detail is stunning and top end is smooth and sweet. Definitely not a bass head tube and still light on the lower minds, but the soundstage and detail make up for it.



New TS 6NS7 GTB: fantastic mids right from the start (15 minutes burn in). 10 hours later it’s even better. Perfect for voice and guitar. Lots of air.

The highs are clean and smooth. Great detail and resolution.  Lows are meaty like a Prime steak. Upper bass is like a warm soft blanket on a cold night. Not as neutral sounding as the Russian NOS. More tubey with a very polished and smooth character. Basically a great big euphonic sound. Makes both my 400i and AFC sound gorgeous. I suspect it makes any headphone sound great as long as it can handle the upper bass without bloat. Holographic soundstage makes you feel like you’re standing in the audience. Dynamics are energetic but not overpowering on my phones.


The synergy between this tube and the 400i is impressive. It may not be as competent as the Lyr 3 + AFC but it’s close. The combo definitely works well and creates a great place to put your head.


To my ears it’s the best sounding tube so far for headphones which might otherwise sound a little dry. Definitely worth the additional money if you want to have a little more tubeness than the stock russian.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## 441879 (Jul 28, 2018)

bcowen said:


> A reissue that sounds _better_ than a true NOS? This is truly worrisome as I was depending on my stash to fund retirement. Crap.
> 
> Seriously, very nice write-up and descriptions.  Thanks for sharing!



Don’t fire sale your tubes yet.  I’m listening through 52 year old analog to brainwave transducers which aren’t exactly state of the art and the differences are subtle. My daughter could tell the difference between her iPhone and the Lyr3 but tube differences were lost on her.

One other thought: the NOS TS probably will benefit from more burn in time- it only has about 20-25 hours on it so far and it’s slow to settle.


----------



## Ripper2860

You know those NOS Russian tubes have implanted listening devices, right?


----------



## 441879

Ripper2860 said:


> You know those NOS Russian tubes have implanted listening devices, right?



Gives a whole new meaning to microphonic tubes


----------



## Ripper2860

I was going to say that, but wanted to set you up for it!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## 441879 (Jul 29, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> I was going to say that, but wanted to set you up for it!!



Thanks for the assist. Wouldn’t have been in position without the setup. 

On an unrelated note: i’ve Been burning the NOS TS all day. Sound is improving still. Top has mellowed out more, though still a little brighter than the NOS Russian and New TS. Soundstage is still probably the best. Still not my favorite but the sibilance is gone and it’s turning into a nice tube.


----------



## Ripper2860

will f said:


> On an unrelated note: i’ve Been burning the NOS TS all day. Sound is improving still. Top has mellowed out more, though still a little brighter than the NOS Russian and New TS. Soundstage is still probably the best.



I'm looking forward to your further thoughts on this tube after a bit more time cooking.  There are some tubes that just don't come into their own until 100 hours, so there may be more to be had.  The NOS TS from Schiit is not too shabby at all, and is a significant improvement over the NOS Russian tube provided by Schiit -- especially in soundstage as you've already found.


----------



## 441879 (Jul 29, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm looking forward to your further thoughts on this tube after a bit more time cooking.  There are some tubes that just don't come into their own until 100 hours, so there may be more to be had.  The NOS TS from Schiit is not too shabby at all, and is a significant improvement over the NOS Russian tube provided by Schiit -- especially in soundstage as you've already found.



I’m thinking I’ll leave it in the amp for a few days then switch back to the new TS and see how they compare. I also need to listen to something besides my test tracks for a while. All three are definitely good enough to make for pleasant listening.


----------



## Ripper2860

You may already be doing this, but be sure to power-off or roll-in a new tube every once in a while.  Thermal cycling, allowing the tube to heat up and cool down periodically, helps with the break-in process, IMHO.  Don't just leave it in powered on 24x7 all the time for break-in, give the tube a rest and then cook it some more.


----------



## 441879 (Jul 29, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> You may already be doing this, but be sure to power-off or roll-in a new tube every once in a while.  Thermal cycling, allowing the tube to heat up and cool down periodically, helps with the break-in process, IMHO.  Don't just leave it in powered on 24x7 all the time for break-in, give the tube a rest and then cook it some more.



Didn’t know that. Totally new to tubes. I did a fair amount of research before buying the Lyr3, but I wasn’t at all convinced I would hear much difference from my Magni 3, or if I did hear a difference it would be positive. It’s tough to live somewhere you can’t listen to top gear. I like internet shopping, but I miss local audio stores. There’s Best Buy and that’s pretty much it. When I lived in St Louis in the early 90s I used to prowl the audio stores checking out gear all the time. Found some amazing stuff for sale used.


----------



## Wes S

TS BG RP  - went microphonic in the right channel during yesterday's all day burn in session.  Back to the seller it goes, and I am done with that tube type.  The tube was no where near being burned in, but from what I heard it sounded like a KenRad, with a more forward midrange.   The WH d getter is back in and already fired up for today.  The grass is not always greener.


----------



## Wes S

Alpha Prime + WH D getter + Lyr 3 = perfection


----------



## Zachik

Wes S said:


> Alpha Prime + WH D getter + Lyr 3 = perfection


Stop tormenting those of us who still couldn’t put their hands on a WH D getter


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jul 29, 2018)

Zachik said:


> Stop tormenting those of us who still couldn’t put their hands on a WH D getter


Edit... check PM.


----------



## Ripper2860

LOL.  I PM'ed him the same link 20 minutes ago.  I wanted to keep it on the down-low.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> LOL.  I PM'ed him the same link 20 minutes ago.  I wanted to keep it on the down-low.


Link?   What link.   We don't need no stinking link.


----------



## Wes S

I bet i know, what you 2 are referring to. . .and I will keep quite.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Wes S said:


> I bet i know, what you 2 are referring to. . .and I will keep quite.


I don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## 441879

You


bcowen said:


> I thought everybody knew about that.  The Sunday sale at WalMart.com with WH D-getters for $2.95 each, right?  But I bet not everyone knows that if you buy 5 or more you get free shipping (it's in the small print).



Tube amps really are a rat-hole. Thanks Schiit the Lyr only needs 1


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## chef8489

Lol yep I still dont have a Wh d getter.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3 (Jul 29, 2018)

okay now lol what kind of link is this??  dang it i need one also


----------



## 441879

bcowen said:


> Yeah, thanks Schitt for enabling our neuroses. Even with the worst sounding tube available, the Lyr 3 sounds way better than an equivalently priced sand amp.



That’s something I figured out this weekend: the tube makes a difference, but so far everything sounds pretty damn good after breakin.


----------



## 441879 (Jul 30, 2018)

bcowen said:


> A reissue that sounds _better_ than a true NOS? This is truly worrisome as I was depending on my stash to fund retirement. Crap.
> 
> Seriously, very nice write-up and descriptions.  Thanks for sharing!



You know, I’ve been thinking about it- when you look at the connections between the base and the bottom insulator/spacer, it looks a total mess compared to the Russian NOS and modern Tung-Sol. The difference in precision and layout is striking. Could the NOS Tung Sol be a cheap fake?

NOS TS

 
 

The Russian NOS and New TS


----------



## ProfFalkin

will f said:


> You know, I’ve been thinking about it- when you look at the connections between the base and the bottom insulator/spacer, it looks a total mess compared to the Russian NOS and modern Tung-Sol. The difference in precision and layout is striking. Could the NOS Tung Sol be a cheap fake?
> 
> NOS TS
> 
> ...


No, looks legit to me.   The new prod TS is built more like an old school 5692 vs a nos 6sn7gtb.  Also, that one is a bottom getter (looks like from the photo) so the bottom gets kind of crowded.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## 441879

ProfFalkin said:


> No, looks legit to me.   The new prod TS is built more like an old school 5692 vs a nos 6sn7gtb.  Also, that one is a bottom getter (looks like from the photo) so the bottom gets kind of crowded.



That’s good. I’d hate to think I blew $20 on a $3 tube. Now I can rest easy knowing I blew $20 on a $20 tube.


----------



## FLTWS




----------



## buonassi

will f said:


> That’s good. I’d hate to think I blew $20 on a $3 tube. Now I can rest easy knowing I blew $20 on a $20 tube.


Funniest post in 10 pages! Superb


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jul 30, 2018)

New victim burning in.  CBS Hydron 6SN7GTB.  The thing is a midget compared to the WH-D.

Pre burn in observation:  mids and bass are delicious!  Treble is polite, but headstage has depth.   If the sound didn't change after burning in, I'd be ok with that.




 

 

 

 




The tube was shipped in a padded mailer / saran wrap / packing tape / bubble wrap / Saran wrap / cardboard box / packing tape / bubble wrap cocoon.  It did its job, but damn hard to open.  Hehehe.


----------



## JohnBal

ProfFalkin said:


> New victim burning in.  CBS Hydron 6SN7GTB.  The thing is a midget compared to the WH-D.
> 
> Pre burn in observation:  mids and bass are delicious!  Treble is polite, but headstage has depth.   If the sound didn't change after burning in, I'd be ok with that.
> 
> ...


It looks like what you have there is a rebranded GE. Let us know what you think after break in. They usually get dissed in most threads around here. Love or hate it, don't attribute it to CBS though. That would be a different tube. Enjoy.


----------



## ProfFalkin

JohnBal said:


> It looks like what you have there is a rebranded GE. Let us know what you think after break in. They usually get dissed in most threads around here. Love or hate it, don't attribute it to CBS though. That would be a different tube. Enjoy.


Well, if it is a GE, I may have to eat my words on all of them being utter crap.  This one isn't bad as it sits.   It's no WH-D, don't get me wrong.  

We'll see how burn goes.


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> New victim burning in.  CBS Hydron 6SN7GTB.  The thing is a midget compared to the WH-D.
> 
> Pre burn in observation:  mids and bass are delicious!  Treble is polite, but headstage has depth.   If the sound didn't change after burning in, I'd be ok with that.
> 
> ...



Nice Pics.
My Fotons came wrapped like that took a while but I got'em in replacement boxes now.


----------



## ScareDe2 (Jul 30, 2018)

Guys can you please tell if the Lyr 3 with the cheaper tube solution sounds better than the lyr 2 with very expensive tubes (like siemens cca or pinched waist e188cc or whatever cost +$500). Thanks very much for answering this.

Should I get the Lyr 3 or keep rolling the lyr 2? Soundwise.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jul 30, 2018)

***, if I'm spending $500 on a tube it better be a 300b.

Also, I don't know if it sounds better.  I have never rolled $500 tubes through a Lyr 2...


----------



## FLTWS (Jul 30, 2018)

My "Zalytron of the Jungle" CBS Hytron 5692 / 6SN7 GTB Short Glass
Our internal constructs look completely different! Mine has flat parallel plates and extra support rods.


----------



## ScareDe2 (Jul 30, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> ***, if I'm spending $500 on a tube it better be a 300b.
> 
> Also, I don't know if it sounds better.  I have never rolled $500 tubes through a Lyr 2...



I never spent this much for a pair of tubes either, but that would illustrate the superiority of the lyr 3 and close the debate quickly, if that is the case (lyr 3 superior soudwise to lyr 2 with holy grails).

Or perhaps the best solution would be to upgrade to a mjolnir 2... I don't know I am just wondering.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

Do as I say and not as I do?


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jul 30, 2018)

188 is the eia code for GE.   

If it wasn't GE, then who made it?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## 441879 (Jul 30, 2018)

So a couple tubes arrived today:

 

Two used RCA 6SN7GTB tubes picked up from eBay for $4.00 each including shipping.

One has what might be a date code:


The other has some sort of code on it:


Obviously one has a side getter based on the flashing. Naturally I’ve had a listen but so far I’ve only compared them to the new TS that comes from Schiit (which is my favorite).

Based on maybe 15 minutes of listening they’re nothing special. Bass is good, but they appear to be missing a lot of detail and micro dynamics. Kind of a meh.  I’ll listen some more and make sure I’m not misjudging them, but for now I’m not thinking these are something special.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> LOL!   Honestly, GE must have made some good tubes at some point. Just not any used in audio applications.


These are great GE tubes.


----------



## ProfFalkin

will f said:


> So a couple tubes arrived today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have the top one.  It is indeed very meh.


----------



## Ripper2860

ProfFalkin said:


> These are great GE tubes.



Thanks for the tip.   Looking for an adapter now!!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Thanks for the tip.   Looking for an adapter now!!


What have I done...


----------



## Wes S (Jul 31, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> These are great GE tubes.


I bet they are a little on the bright side.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jul 31, 2018)

Oh I got somewhere to plug it into.  Won't be very comfortable for you, however.  


Sorry.


----------



## Zachik

You guys are hopeless...


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Oh I got somewhere to plug it into.  Won't be very comfortable for you, however.
> 
> 
> Sorry.


It took a while, but I just got the joke.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Aug 1, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> New victim burning in.  CBS Hydron 6SN7GTB.  The thing is a midget compared to the WH-D.
> 
> Pre burn in observation:  mids and bass are delicious!  Treble is polite, but headstage has depth.   If the sound didn't change after burning in, I'd be ok with that.
> 
> ...



Ok, 50+ hours of break-in on this tube.   Bass has become a wee bit flabby, but has good quantity.   In other words, it is bassy but not an extremely well defined bass / sounds a bit fuzzy.  If all you want is impact and quantity, this is ok.   (I'm on the fence about it.)

Stage depth is actually good.   Width is average.

Treble picked up a bit.  It's doing fairly good on resolving background detail in many of my standard test tracks.  Nothing sounds harsh or tizzy.

Mids have a touch less of the front and center sound I heard when first starting off.   The Eikons tend to showcase mids anyway, so on my setup mids and vocals now seem more neutral.

Turning the amp over to low gain does tame the bass and brings more clarity down low.   I sense a bit less resolution on background detail though, as if the treble went back to being polite pre-burnin.  Snare drums lose impact, for example.

So... if this is a GE tube, I may have to eat crow when I said all GE tubes are utter crap.   This one is decent.   It's not great like the WH-D, where the overall sound is more clear and liquid, but it's also not offending me terribly in any given area of the sound.   Still, if you're going to spend $30 on a tube, I'd still highly suggest you be on the hunt for a WH-D or a '50s Foton.

I would recommend this tube if you wanted lots of sub/midbass without having sucked-out vocals and guitar, or a rolled off treble region, and weren't particularly nit-picky about super-resolving detail in various areas of the FR.   It seemed to match well with casual listening of various EDM and rock tracks, less so with acoustic jazz or live performances.  Classical nuts will want to pitch it out a window.


----------



## 441879 (Aug 3, 2018)

bcowen said:


> A reissue that sounds _better_ than a true NOS? This is truly worrisome as I was depending on my stash to fund retirement. Crap.
> 
> Seriously, very nice write-up and descriptions.  Thanks for sharing!



I’m sad to report I was wrong about the NOS TS. it took a while, but it’s matured into my favorite tube. It started out being basically rough at the top but with great soundstage. It’s no Bass monster, but the top has smoothed, the detail has tightened up to the point it’s the best of the bunch, and the soundstage has continued to improve. Tube is now highly recommended. It’s a little dry, but it’s strengths make up for it.

One caveat though. This tube is extremely revealing. If the recording isn’t well done and you have detail monster headphones, you will hear every flaw.


----------



## buonassi

FLTWS said:


> Nice Pics.
> My Fotons came wrapped like that took a while but I got'em in replacement boxes now.



yep, mine too.  couldn't salvage the bubble wrap !



ScareDe2 said:


> Should I get the Lyr 3 or keep rolling the lyr 2? Soundwise.



the great thing about Lyr 3 having 1 tube is you can just keep playing until you find your perfect sound.  It's probably the cheaper path to your 'neutrality nirvana'.


----------



## buonassi (Aug 3, 2018)

sorry I haven't given more impressions on tubes.  I finally have them all in (including socket savers - YES I did continuity checks!).  So I'll be back to sharing in good time - but not just yet.  I thought I'd give you guys a quick update

tldr begin------------------------​
I took a vacation for just over a week and wasn't home.  Upon my return I set my priorities to system overhaul #3.  This included a decent gain in overall quality with a power conditioner.  Many folks will claim (and rightly so) that they can squash the dynamics a bit.  Those same folks also admit that a nice pop in clarity and blacker background with more focus also accompanies the squashed dynamics (depending on how bad your power is).  I also think that low level detail is better heard due to a very quiet noise floor increasing resolution just a smidge.  I went with a unit that carries 15 amps and uses a much larger toroidal ferrite choke, and have not noticed ANY loss in slam or dynamics.  All the goodness of clean power without the downsides.  It's a Furman Elite unit marketed toward home theater.  Ebay delivers again - got this used for an unreal price, I feel bad for the seller actually.

Other tweaks employed have been cable related: new USB cables, upgraded power cables for my amp and dac, some used "almost end game" interconnects, and an aftermarket headphone cable.

Hopefully this jump in SQ will help me hear tube sonics / effects even better.  I guess that's the whole point of my long winded post.​
tldr end ---------------------------​
In the meantime, I've been using the *Northern Electric 6SN7*.  I kept it plugged in pre and post upgrade to keep a baseline and note changes that each tweak introduced.  This tube is more than a jack of all trades and it's why I've been using it for the system upgrade.  If any of you guys can find it, it's a bit pricey, but very worthwhile.  It's not the best at any one thing, but it's good at everything.  Just name your desired trait and it seems to do it either respectably well or excellently.  I guess for this reason it can sound a bit boring to some folks - but coherence and balance is through the roof - this can't be denied.  I kept switching from a good solid state amp to the lyr 3 with the NE tube and just love the A/B results!  It's confirmation for me that tubes can not only sound more interesting and colored, but also spit out some darn good technicalities as well, matching the "resolution" factor of good solid state amps.


----------



## FLTWS (Aug 3, 2018)

buonassi said:


> yep, mine too.  couldn't salvage the bubble wrap !
> 
> the great thing about Lyr 3 having 1 tube is you can just keep playing until you find your perfect sound.  It's probably the cheaper path to your 'neutrality nirvana'.



Yes, but I still want a balanced in/out LYR3 (B) with feature set for drive options like Freya even if more tubes are required.
I'm not an electrical engineer but a modified Freya for HP use should be a "relatively" easy design build, right. (?)

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...7ADDCBA57ADB45F5846A7ADDCBA57ADB&&FORM=VRDGAR


----------



## Phantaminum (Aug 3, 2018)

FLTWS said:


> Yes, but I still want a balanced in/out LYR3 (B) with feature set for drive options like Freya even if more tubes are required.
> I'm not an electrical engineer but a modified Freya for HP use should be a "relatively" easy design build, right. (?)
> 
> https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Videos+of+Bones+telling+Captain+Kirk+"Dammit+Jim...&&view=detail&mid=45F5846A7ADDCBA57ADB45F5846A7ADDCBA57ADB&&FORM=VRDGAR



Could be Schiit decides to make the Mjolnir 3, with balanced out, dual 12sn7 slots, and the features you're requesting. Who knows but if they are making something like this I'd be quite happy. I loved the Mjolnir 2.


----------



## FLTWS

I agree, the LYR3 is a very good sounding amp, period. Depending on choice of tube one can alter the sound profile to varying degrees as well.
And, the Foton's are a great value and listen.


----------



## 441879

buonassi said:


> sorry I haven't given more impressions on tubes.  I finally have them all in (including socket savers - YES I did continuity checks!).  So I'll be back to sharing in good time - but not just yet.  I thought I'd give you guys a quick update
> 
> tldr begin------------------------​
> I took a vacation for just over a week and wasn't home.  Upon my return I set my priorities to system overhaul #3.  This included a decent gain in overall quality with a power conditioner.  Many folks will claim (and rightly so) that they can squash the dynamics a bit.  Those same folks also admit that a nice pop in clarity and blacker background with more focus also accompanies the squashed dynamics (depending on how bad your power is).  I also think that low level detail is better heard due to a very quiet noise floor increasing resolution just a smidge.  I went with a unit that carries 15 amps and uses a much larger toroidal ferrite choke, and have not noticed ANY loss in slam or dynamics.  All the goodness of clean power without the downsides.  It's a Furman Elite unit marketed toward home theater.  Ebay delivers again - got this used for an unreal price, I feel bad for the seller actually.
> ...



My what a big tube you have  More seriously: would it fit without a socket saver? I’ve been thinking about trying a Psvane of similar shape.


----------



## Wes S

Well. . .I finally found a tube that can compete with the WH d getter, and it is the Sylvania 6SN7GT 1952 - 3 hole plate - copper grid post - bottom foil getter - "BAD BOY".  The real "bad boy", is just as good if not better at, everything.  Best bass I have heard, midrange is just a tad bit more forward than the WH getter and liquid as can be, and the highs are extended and sparkly, without any harshness.  Sound stage is huge and imaging is the best I have heard, with micro details popping up everywhere, that I have never heard before.  I am not kidding.  Everything I have read about the "bad boy", is true.  I hope a few of you get one of these, and experience pure bliss!


----------



## Ripper2860

Dammit, Wes!!!    


Just when I thought I was good on the tube-front, you go and post this.


----------



## Phantaminum

FLTWS said:


> I agree, the LYR3 is a very good sounding amp, period. Depending on choice of tube one can alter the sound profile to varying degrees as well.
> And, the Foton's are a great value and listen.



Oops, I realized I posted my thoughts in totally the wrong thread. I do agree with everything you said.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Dammit, Wes!!!
> Just when I thought I was good on the tube-front, you go and post this.


Sigh. I agree. You guys are such bad influence!!!


----------



## 441879

Wes S said:


> Well. . .I finally found a tube that can compete with the WH d getter, and it is the Sylvania 6SN7GT 1952 - 3 hole plate - copper grid post - bottom foil getter - "BAD BOY".  The real "bad boy", is just as good if not better at, everything.  Best bass I have heard, midrange is just a tad bit more forward than the WH getter and liquid as can be, and the highs are extended and sparkly, without any harshness.  Sound stage is huge and imaging is the best I have heard, with micro details popping up everywhere, that I have never heard before.  I am not kidding.  Everything I have read about the "bad boy", is true.  I hope a few of you get one of these, and experience pure bliss!



Funny you should mention. This showed up today on my doorstep. I just dropped it into my Lyr 3. Initial impressions are extremely positive. It’s the two hole version, but it still sounds seriously good with 1-2 minutes on the tube.


----------



## JohnBal

Yes. These Sylvanias are really good tubes. They are plentiful too. Not always incredibly cheap, but very clear and clean, extended at both ends with excellent soundstaging. Not the most tubey sounding. So if like the warm goo type of sound, these may not be for you. Personally, I love them. Try the bottom getter flat black plates too. Sleepers. Not as plentiful as the ones above, but worth a try.


----------



## Zer0.p0int.Zer0

I just picked up a couple Sylvanias. The chrome dome has static / hiss in the right channel unfortunately.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 3, 2018)

Sorry to hear that.  The tube on the right is not a true 'Chrome Dome', BTW.  

A true 'Chrome Dome' is almost completely covered in chrome flashing. See the below Sylvania made (MFG code 312) 1952 Magnavox 6SN7GT 'Chrome Dome' tube...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860




----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 3, 2018)

will f said:


> Funny you should mention. This showed up today on my doorstep. I just dropped it into my Lyr 3. Initial impressions are extremely positive. It’s the two hole version, but it still sounds seriously good with 1-2 minutes on the tube.



If you like the VT-231 Sylvie (an excellent tube, BTW), see if you can land a 1940's Sylvania 6SN7W black base (short or tall bottle).  The soundstage and frequency response top to bottom is amazing and wonderfully balanced.  And they do have the ever sought after bass slam!!  They are the best tubes (IMHO) in my cache of tubes.  They are not cheap, but occasionally you can find one at a nice price, if you know what to look for.  

These 2 threads can be a real help (or hindrance) to a 6SN7 tube roller ...

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/


----------



## 441879 (Aug 4, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> If you like the VT-231 Sylvie (an excellent tube, BTW), see if you can land a 1940's Sylvania 6SN7W black base (short or tall bottle).  The soundstage and frequency response top to bottom is amazing and wonderfully balanced.  And they do have the ever sought after bass slam!!  They are the best tubes (IMHO) in my cache of tubes.  They are not cheap, but occasionally you can find one at a nice price, if you know what to look for.
> 
> These 2 threads can be a real help (or hindrance) to a 6SN7 tube roller ...
> 
> ...



It is with all due and appropriate gravity that I announce: You sir, are a bad, bad man.

I haven’t even fully finished breaking in any of 4 tubes, all pretty damn good, and you have me considering the purchase of another.

Bad!

Truthfully: thanks for the tip. It’s on the list now, though I swear I won’t look for one until my current tubes are at least broken in.


----------



## Wes S

Sylvania Bad Boy’s have the best midrange I have heard so far.  The tone is perfect.  Hauntingly real sounding vocals and liquid smooth everything.


----------



## FLTWS (Aug 4, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> Sorry to hear that.  The tube on the right is not a true 'Chrome Dome', BTW.
> 
> A true 'Chrome Dome' is almost completely covered in chrome flashing. See the below Sylvania made (MFG code 312) 1952 Magnavox 6SN7GT 'Chrome Dome' tube...



Wow,that's ugly! LOL.Looks like it got too close to a black hole.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> I just picked up a new Sylvania too. I'm naming it Frankentube due to the top of its' head being square.



Huh! Lansdale, Pa., just a short drive for me.


----------



## Ripper2860

FLTWS said:


> Wow,that's ugly! LOL.Looks like it got too close to a black hole.



Yeah, but don't let the looks fool you.


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah, but don't let the looks fool you.



So, what your saying is, you wouldn't kick it out of......your LYR-3


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 4, 2018)

Exactly!!   What it lacks in looks, it makes up for with enthusiasm and ability in …… my Lyr 3!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Exactly!!   What it lacks in looks, it makes up for with enthusiasm and ability in …… my Lyr 3!!


Lyr3 is back in the house?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 4, 2018)

Nope.  Schiit says next week.  But I did get to listen to the Chrome Dome for a bit before Lyr 3 let out the magic smoke.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 4, 2018)

I don't see the Frankenplate image.  



edit:  OK.  So I cleaned my glasses and when I put them back on -- whamo!!  Now I see the image.

From now on I will call it the NU Zebra Plate.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> First we had FrankenTop, now we have a National Union FrankenPlate. That's not a photo artifact -- the plates are a mix of silver and black where the coating was missed. Not only that, the glass is crooked in the base, the plate structure isn't centered physically at the bottom and then leans to one side at the top.  Somehow the thing tests perfectly.  But if I want to find another, do I look for black plates or silver plates?



Yikes!!!


----------



## buonassi

will f said:


> would it fit without a socket saver?


kinda, it fits, but the glass does make contact with the tube cutout of the amp's chassis.  And I'm not sure it was fully seated - but it worked just fine without the saver. I did the socket saver more for looks and would've been fine leaving it the way it was (making contact with chassis).


----------



## 441879 (Aug 5, 2018)

My impressions of the Sylvania 1952 6SN7GT “Bad Boy” (Two hole version):

So I bought this tube from Brent Jesse at Audiotubes.com. Not exactly cheap, but it has a reputation for clarity which is probably why I bought it. I say “probably” because I’m not sure I bought it for the right reasons. The staging is phenomenal. Add clear and nicely sweet treble, solid, textured mids, and very articulate upper bass and you have a fantastic tube. When coupled with a decently resolving pair of phones, a good recording can sweep you away into a  beautiful, hyper real world, There’s a catch though: recording problems show up loud and clear. I’m not talking about subtle errors like compressed dynamic range or AD conversion errors. I’m talking things like crappy miking, poor room acoustics, etc. it doesn’t happen on most of my music, but it happens quite a bit more often than I would expect having heard the songs multiple times and never been bothered.

I guess I’m now beginning to understand why clarity may not always be a plus. Not say I don’t love this tube- It’s a truly great tube. It’s just that if you have a very detailed, resolving amp hooked up to a pair of very detailed resolving headphones, a very detailed resolving tube might occasionally be too much of a good thing. Anyway, specific headphone comments:

Aeon Flow Closed (AFC): This headphone, despite being closed, shows the Bad Boy’s strengths. Specifically, the sound is neutral, clean, detailed, and balanced. There’s plenty of sparkle but no harshness and doesn’t feel bright. The super detailed slightly forward mids are nicely complemented by a wide and deep soundstage that does well with live recordings, giving them great realism. The upper bass is tight, but polite. A great combo for well recorded live music. Impact and slam are good but not noteworthy. Personally I like a little more tube sound with this headphone, but with a good recording, this is nirvana.

Hifiman HE-400i: The open nature of these phones work very well with the Bad Boy. Instrument and musician placement is solidly nailed down. The sound profile for the Hifiman isn’t as real sounding as the AFC’s,but clarity is as good as I’ve ever heard these cans sound. Not as clear as the AFC’s but in this case that might actually not be so bad as they seem more tolerant of bad recordings, have a better soundstage, and more present bass with a little more slam.

In summary: the 1952 Sylvania 6SN7 GT is a fantastic tube if you want tons of clarity, balance, soundstage, and detail. It’s not very tubey though so look elsewhere for warm and gooey.


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## Wes S (Aug 5, 2018)

will f said:


> My impressions of the Sylvania 1952 6SN7GT “Bad Boy” (Two hole version):
> 
> So I bought this tube from Brent Jesse at Audiotubes.com. Not exactly cheap, but it has a reputation for clarity which is probably why I bought it. I say “probably” because I’m not sure I bought it for the right reasons. The staging is phenomenal. Add clear and nicely sweet treble, solid, textured mids, and very articulate upper bass and you have a fantastic tube. When coupled with a decently resolving pair of phones, a good recording can sweep you away into a  beautiful, hyper real world, There’s a catch though: recording problems show up loud and clear. I’m not talking about subtle errors like compressed dynamic range or AD conversion errors. I’m talking things like crappy miking, poor room acoustics, etc. it doesn’t happen on most of my music, but it happens quite a bit more often than I would expect having heard the songs multiple times and never been bothered.
> 
> ...


Good review!


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## 441879 (Aug 5, 2018)

A bit more about the 1952 Sylvania 6SN7 GT “Bad Boy” compared to my other tubes. Note that the differences are small and they all sound great:

Schiit supplied Tung Sol: Mids less present than the Bad Boy. Soundstage is closer and smaller. Detail and resolution is noticeably less, probably due to less mids. Slam and impact about the same, maybe a hair more, though it’s hard to tell if it’s because of less mids or something else. Interestingly, I thought this tube sounded a little dry after listening to the Bad Boy, but I thought it sounded fairly warm when I first compared it to the NOS Russian and NOS Tung Sol. Treble feels less articulate, probably due to the comparatively recessed upper mids.

Schiit supplied NOS Russian: Treble feels artificial compared to B.B. Detail and resolution is not really in the same league as the B.B. but not bad. Bass is bigger with a nice solid feel that really shines with the AFCs. Slam is noticeably better. Soundstage is unimpressive when compared to the B.B.

NOS 1950s Tung Sol 6NS7 GTB: This one sounds pretty similar to the Bad-Boy with a little more high frequency energy. Detail feels comparable though a bit more tube smoothness. Impact and slam a little bigger than the Bad-Boy, with bass feeling a little looser and not quite as controlled. Soundstage is comparable. Overall it holds its own pretty darn well against the B.B. This tube is probably a better match for my AFCs and the B.B. a better match for my 400i, For the AFC’s I think I prefer it to the B.B. just because it is less prone to capturing recording flaws. I go the opposite way with the 400i thanks to it’s lower level of midrange detail and clarity, which the B.B. makes up for. I could completely change my mind next week though as the differences are really minor and the BB could use another 50 hours of burn in.


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## buonassi

Found these organizers at the dollar tree .  Seem to cradle the 6sn7 tubes well. Flatter profile for storage, but they're not stackable without weight on tubes!


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## FLTWS

buonassi said:


> Found these organizers at the dollar tree .  Seem to cradle the 6sn7 tubes well. Flatter profile for storage, but they're not stackable without weight on tubes!


 
Plantar Fasciitis on that right foot?


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 5, 2018)

I doubt it.  Likely dropped a newly acquired tube on his foot ...








Good luck finding a 6SN7 adapter!


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## buonassi (Aug 5, 2018)

FLTWS said:


> Plantar Fasciitis on that right foot?



I knew someone would catch that.  Actually, I have drop foot (from a hip surgery) and use it to keep my foot from flopping down and messing with my achilles tendon.



Ripper2860 said:


> I doubt it. Likely dropped a newly acquired tube on his foot ...



ha ha.  Nice one!  But what is that thing?????


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 5, 2018)

It's a tube.  For what, I have no idea.  Did a Google image search for 'world's largest vacuum tubes' and found this one.  

I suspect @bcowen has this one in his arsenal and if not, he will shortly.  

https://www.etsystudio.com/listing/483467031/largest-vintage-vacuum-tube-we-have-ever


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## FLTWS

buonassi said:


> I knew someone would catch that.  Actually, I have drop foot (from a hip surgery) and use it to keep my foot from flopping down and messing with my achilles tendon.



I had the Plantar for 13 months a few years back, wearing that same plastic iron maiden to sleep with was a PITA.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## 441879 (Aug 5, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> It's a tube.  For what, I have no idea.  Did a Google image search for 'world's largest vacuum tubes' and found this one.
> 
> I suspect @bcowen has this one in his arsenal and if not, he will shortly.
> 
> https://www.etsystudio.com/listing/483467031/largest-vintage-vacuum-tube-we-have-ever



Seems kind of small. I’m thinking one like this would be better:



Bonus: no need for additional heating sources i. The room.


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 5, 2018)

And it doubles as a floor lamp!!


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## buonassi

Another thread soldier preparing to go AWOL
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-schiit-lyr-3.885870/

I'd be interested to hear why.  Suspect it's just wanting to try something new and needing the funds to do so.  Really, I wonder how much better it gets when you go with an exotic ALL TUBE amp vs hybrid like lyr3?


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860

Another one bites the dust.  One never really knows the circumstances.  I just hope it is nothing dire causing him to sell.


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## FLTWS

The grass is always greener?


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 5, 2018)

bcowen said:


> LOL!!! A bazillion dollars worth of audio goodies and a $14.95 shelf unit from Home Deport to put the components on. At least the priorities are right.



Shows what you know ...

That's the TOTL Rhodium-plated IKEA audio cabinet with AIUDCB (Audio Inert Utlra-Dense Chip Board) shelves.  What you don't see is that the entire enclosure is suspended by a magnetic system similar to that used on high-speed Japanese bullet trains -- with the added benefit of also being a full system degausser!!

Rookie mistake.


----------



## ProfFalkin

buonassi said:


> Another thread soldier preparing to go AWOL
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-schiit-lyr-3.885870/
> 
> I'd be interested to hear why.  Suspect it's just wanting to try something new and needing the funds to do so.  Really, I wonder how much better it gets when you go with an exotic ALL TUBE amp vs hybrid like lyr3?


I still listen to my Crack.  It's not better, it's just different.  They might want different.


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 5, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> I still listen to my Crack...



  Hmmm.  So many possibilities ...


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 5, 2018)

Close.  It's the new form-factor Cryo treated Sam's Choice iteration of the Tice Powerblock.  Although it is $4,995, they do have a special where you get 4x pyramid-shaped, high-density crystal-aligned, polymer speaker cable lifts with every purchase.

When you can snatch the pebble from my hand ...


----------



## buonassi

Ripper2860 said:


> I just hope it is nothing dire causing him to sell.


what? like reading about someone's Lyr3 that decided to have an after sex cigarette, then heart attack? 



ProfFalkin said:


> It's not better, it's just different. They might want different.


good post.  Different is good - you just want to move on sometimes and get a new thrill.  This isn't a marriage, and if it is one, I guess it's one that swings.

Wow, 2 anthropomorphic replies.  I'm becoming way too attached.  I think I need a girl friend.


----------



## buonassi

What the Foton!  Even cold this thing is exciting.  Here are my first impressions:

*foton (cold - supposedly NOS, 5 mins in the amp first time)*


first time I’ve had “wow” factor this high
exciting colored sound, somewhat U shaped presentation just very very slightly
omg - treble yes - clean and sparkly - not fatiguing - it’s very high treble, like last octave type air at 10k and above (it seems)
a little tiny bit of harsh splash there - but it’s high enough to avoid the sibilance region, so not fatiguing - it also seems to be subsiding the more it warms up - yes it’s either subsiding, or so minor I adjusted to it and it no longer is an issue.
wide and evoking mids - slows the music down and smooths it over - wow
a little loose presentation - like “gooey” is what I think others would call it - smooth and liquid, but thrown way out (nice)
widest tube by far - lots of harmonics going on - very tubey sounding (from what little I know) I think the harmonics cause this “richness” I hear in everything.  
good bass depth and more than moderate amount of slam - slam seems to be gaining as it warms up
it’s got some very good (if not the best) mid bass punch and “pop”- and this seems to be grounded to the deep bass in a very nice way - not flabby - bass kick drum is tight and a bit dry - articulate - yet the bass guitars aren’t dry at all - very wierd and enjoyable dichotomy.


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## Zachik (Aug 5, 2018)

bcowen said:


> A 7N7 is electrically equivalent to a 6S*N*7. A 7F7 is electrically equivalent to a 6S*L*7 (with 3.5x the gain of a 6SN7). I'm still on a learning curve with the 7N7 tubes, but I think this particular one was made by National Union (apparently in the same factory as FrankenPlate).
> 
> I'll share more as I learn more, but right now there's a particular version of the 7N7 that has taken the #1 spot in my Lyr and displaced every 6SN7 I've yet tried.....


When you say "7N7 is electrically equivalent to a 6SN7" - does one need an adapter, or is it drop-in compatible?
*Edit: found answer online - adapter needed!*

So... after first listen, it is already better sounding than ANY other 6SN7?  Is there a catch?!


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 5, 2018)

buonassi said:


> what? like reading about someone's Lyr3 that decided to have an after sex cigarette, then heart attack?



Well, there's that, I guess.  Or some sort of financial hardship.  




buonassi said:


> What the Foton! Even cold this thing is exciting. Here are my first impressions:
> 
> *foton (cold - supposedly NOS, 5 mins in the amp first time)*



Wait for it.  Breaking in a Foton is a Jekyll and Hyde experience. There will be good days and bad days -- days where it's the best tube you've ever heard, and days where you'll be looking to yank it out and dispose of it as quickly as possible. Love, Hate, Love, Hate and finally Love again.  After about 100 hours, it'll settle into its own and it'll make all you went through to get there worth it.  It's a process that cannot be rushed.  ​


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## Phantaminum (Aug 6, 2018)

buonassi said:


> Another thread soldier preparing to go AWOL
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-schiit-lyr-3.885870/
> 
> I'd be interested to hear why.  Suspect it's just wanting to try something new and needing the funds to do so.  Really, I wonder how much better it gets when you go with an exotic ALL TUBE amp vs hybrid like lyr3?



The Lyr 3 is a great head phone amp but my headphones have greater synergy with the MCTH. It's spot on tonality wise with the tube combination I have in it.

Except with the Aeon Flow Open which combined with the MCTH make them sound flat. The Lyr 3 instead puts E85 in its gas tank and make them sound alive. Very punchy and fast.

The amp with the Ribbed Fotons is very hard to beat value wise.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> Totally agree.



Me too! That's a  killer tube with my LYR3 and at this price surprisingly so, and delightful right outta' the box..


----------



## Wes S

*1952 Sylvania 6SN7GT* - (*3 hole plate*, copper grid post, 3 spikes on short side of top mica, date code of *252*) 
  - Bass hits hard, deep and fast (best I have heard and satisfies the basshead in me)
  - Mids are warm, detailed, smooth as can be, and have just perfect tone ( just a tad bit more present than the *WH d getter* )
  - Highs well extended and never harsh
  - Best imaging and soundstage I have heard, so far.

vs.* WH d getter*, the *Sylvania* is just a bit more exciting in all frequencies, while still remaining smooth as can be.  Both tubes are amazing and I would be happy with either one.


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 6, 2018)

Need some help ...

I purchased a Philco (Sylvania) 6SN7GT with the below attributes:

1. Bottom getter flashing extending 1/3 up the tube
2. 3-hole black T-plates
3. Top rectangular mica with 3- points per side
4. Bottom rectangular mica.

Looks just like an early 50's Sylvania GT, but has a weird date code of 5302 (according to the seller). I've done some poking around and cannot really find a definitive answer -- there seems to be more Philco/RCA era date code info than Philco/Sylvania era. I'm guessing it's YEAR | WEEK or MONTH which would mean 1953 | week 2 or Feb), but I'm hoping you fine folks can confirm or provide more info.

Maybe I snagged a Philco-branded 3-hole Bad Boy, maybe I didn't.  It sure looks like it may be one from the one pic I have.


----------



## ilikepooters

Zer0.p0int.Zer0 said:


> I just picked up a couple Sylvanias. The chrome dome has static / hiss in the right channel unfortunately.


Try running a soldering iron over each pin if tubes are crackle. 're flowing the solder has helped me on a couple of tubes.


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## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Need some help ...
> 
> I purchased a Philco (Sylvania) 6SN7GT with the below attributes:
> 
> ...





Ripper2860 said:


> Need some help ...
> 
> I purchased a Philco (Sylvania) 6SN7GT with the below attributes:
> 
> ...


Looks like a real one to me.  If I could see a couple more angles, I could tell you for sure.


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## Wes S (Aug 6, 2018)

The sylvania bad boys, also have a date code acid etched on the glass, directly below the etched 6SN7 stop sign logo.  Usually letter, number, letter, with number being 2nd digit of date.  For instance H2M , is from 1952.  The date code written on the base could be philco's code, but the code on the glass, if visible would be from sylvania.  I have seen some rebrand bad boys with 2 sets if date codes, in the base as well, one from rebrand and one from sylvania.


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 6, 2018)

Thanks!!  I'll post up pics when I get the tube. Don't know how much of the date and code stuff carries over when one MFG makes tubes for another.  It may have Sylvania date codes or it may have Philco specified codes.  (BTW -- RCA made Philco tubes until about the 30's, then Philco awarded the contract to Sylvania and after that it was all them.)

I don't have the test results, but Seller says it tested above bogey value on a Hickok KS 15874 L2 Cardmatic tube tester.  No shorts and no leaks, but there is a tiny hairline crack on the base --  but still solid and securely mounted w/ no compromise to tube integrity. (Superglue to the rescue!) 

Worth the $20 gamble, I think.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll post up pics when I get the tube.
> 
> I don't have the test results, but Seller says it tested above bogey value on a Hickok KS 15874 L2 Cardmatic tube tester.  No shorts and no leaks, but there is a tiny hairline crack on the base --  but still solid and securely mounted w/ no compromise to tube integrity.  Worth the $20 gamble.



If that is a real one, and does test good, you got a deal.


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## Zer0.p0int.Zer0

ilikepooters said:


> Try running a soldering iron over each pin if tubes are crackle. 're flowing the solder has helped me on a couple of tubes.



Might have to give that a try. It’s actually a really nice sounding tube when the volume is high enough above the noise level. 

I realize not a true “chrome dome”. 
Sylvania 6SN7GTB. Date code B2B so that would make it 1952?


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 6, 2018)

The GTB was not introduced until 19*54*, so what you have is a (B) Feb. (2) 19*62* tube.  The last B is the plant code and I have not been able to get a listing of Sylvie plant code designations.

Honestly,  I don't think Sylvania makes a bad sounding 6SN7 tube, so it's all good.


----------



## Zachik

So... after being sucked into the tube-rolling vortex, and spending way too much time and money on tubes... I am curious:
Do you, tube masters / gurus / addicts, use socket savers? Or just plug the tubes straight to the amp?
Also, when using a tube saver - doesn't it all "come off" when pulling a tube out? How does the tube saver stay in when a tube is removed?
(I know, a newbie question....)


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 7, 2018)

I use a socket saver and yes -- it does come off with the tube, much to my chagrin.  The one benefit I see, since it is not reducing the number of socket inserts and removals, is that it keeps the non-pristine pins on used/NOS tubes from mucking up the tube socket in my Lyr 3.


----------



## Wes S

No socket savers for me, because they just come right out with the tube.  Just something else in the chain, that does not need to be there.  Also, the tube without socket saver fit just right, to where the base of the tube is not visible.  Socket savers are eye sores!


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## FLTWS (Aug 7, 2018)

Wes S said:


> No socket savers for me, because they just come right out with the tube.  Just something else in the chain, that does not need to be there.  Also, the tube without socket saver fit just right, to where the base of the tube is not visible.  Socket savers are eye sores!



Eyesores, meh!  I do have have 2 for 6DJ8's (for my MJ2) and recently 2 for 6SN7's. After a few months with the 6DJ8's (2 years ago now) I found it easier to insert and remove the tubes wrapping an un-powdered latex glove around the top half of the tube and gently rocking, rotating, and pulling straight up to remove and just straight in to install. If you horse the tube around like your removing an old fence post stuck 3 feet in the ground your probably going to damage more tubes than tube sockets. I don't know what the life expectancy is for tube socket install / remove cycles and I've owned tube gear since 1970, but I never had a socket related issue. Plus, how long do some of us hang on to our gear anyway?

I've always felt the less points of mechanical contact the better so I prefer directly installing the tubes.

A properly designed tube amp should not let heat be a problem as far as life expectancy of the tube s concerned. It's also possible that a design done with partially or fully under cover tube(s) maintains better temperature stability while operating, (yeah, I'm swaggin' that theory).

I did recently buy the 6SN7 lifters in the event that I experience a moment of weakness and buy some of those pear shaped 6SN7's that don't fully seat because of the small opening in the top plate.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> ...  I remember re-tensioning all the sockets on the Cary V-12i monos I had a while back....264 contacts was a wee bit more of a task.



I guess so!


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## Zer0.p0int.Zer0

ilikepooters said:


> Try running a soldering iron over each pin if tubes are crackle. 're flowing the solder has helped me on a couple of tubes.




You are a genius!! I took your advice, been listening about 30 minutes and the 19*62 *Sylvania sounds wonderful.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Ripper2860 said:


> Well. folks.  I'll be silent in this thread for a bit.  My Lyr 3 let the magic smoke out yesterday and is on its way across the rainbow bridge to Schiit's capable service department.  Keeping my fingers crossed for a quick turn-around and a Jason autographed bottom plate for the trouble.
> 
> Thankfully, I never sold my Magni 3



Same happened too me, and it took out my Focal Clear in the process, Schiit turned it around quickly and it gave me the opportunity to try the Utopias (yes, they are worth the hype). My backup is the CTH, as mentioned, doesn’t have enough power for the Abyss, but sounds wonderful with Focal and Sennheiser. 

On another note, you Westing House D-Getter hoarders, cut a guy a break, I can’t find them anywhere!


----------



## FLTWS

Wildcatsare1 said:


> Same happened too me, and it took out my Focal Clear in the process, Schiit turned it around quickly and it gave me the opportunity to try the Utopias (yes, they are worth the hype). My backup is the CTH, as mentioned, doesn’t have enough power for the Abyss, but sounds wonderful with Focal and Sennheiser.
> 
> On another note, you Westing House D-Getter hoarders, cut a guy a break, I can’t find them anywhere!



I've only got 2, I'm not exactly cornering the the market.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> Did Schiit relay to you what fried and/or caused the problem with your Lyr?



That's 2 recent LYR3 burn outs, would be good to know what happened.


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 8, 2018)

Would you believe me if I said it was the WH D getter tubes?  Stay away.  Run far.  Run fast.  Do not get them.  If you are looking for one, stop now!!! 


(There.  That should stop the crazy demand for them and allow me to hoard even more!!)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

"These are not the tubes you are looking for."


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

FLTWS said:


> That's 2 recent LYR3 burn outs, would be good to know what happened.


It should would! Either of you 2, get a reason from Schiit?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 8, 2018)

Schiit says there will be a note in mine that will provide some details.  The other Lyr 3 owner had his replaced with a new one, so no repair details given.

I should have mine back on Friday (US) and will post-up any details.


----------



## ilikepooters

Zer0.p0int.Zer0 said:


> You are a genius!! I took your advice, been listening about 30 minutes and the 19*62 *Sylvania sounds wonderful.




No probs 

Can get dry solder joints just like on a circuit board, i figured this out with a couple of the russkie Melz tubes. Russian welding might be good but russian soldering sucks


----------



## buonassi

FLTWS said:


> gently rocking, rotating, and pulling straight up to remove and just straight in to install.



That's precisely why it's called tube "rolling".  The motion of removing the tube.  



bcowen said:


> only 8 octal-sized contacts to re-tension.



Dude, I had no idea!  I learned something today.  I thought that once you started getting bad contact at the socket, it had to be removed and another soldered in place.  This makes sense.  Now I won't feel like the lyr is a cat on it's 9th life every time I do a swap!


----------



## buonassi

Wildcatsare1 said:


> took out my Focal Clear in the process



a very expensive blow.  man I'm sorry for you.  Schiit let you borrow some utopias I gathered from your post.  In terms of compensation for the clears did you receive anything like credit at schiit or discount?

I'm guessing you had just popped in a new tube and flicked on the power with the cans plugged in.  That's when it popped?  Or did you flick on power, let everything stabilize, then plug in the cans, then have the melt down?  IOW, did it happen mid listen or a power-on event?  @Ripper2860 same question for you too sir if you'd be so kind. 

Clearly we Lyr 3 owners need to take precaution.  If we're talking about this amp frying headphones during the course of normal listening - I just may have to slow my roll.  pun intended.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Schiit didn't provide the Utopia, it actually is one of The Cable Company's ”lending library” headphones. I was told my Clear return was delayed so they kindly offered the Utopia. Of course, the problem is, I love the Utopia, I had some doubts (foolish man that I am), now I know the Utopia is an extremely good headphone. 

On the turn on, I had the headphones plugged in when I turned the power on, which was my mistake. Though in my 30 years of audio, this was an unfortunate first.


----------



## buonassi

figures the one time you switch a tube and don't unplug.  man that's a shame.

yeah the utopias engineering is the best dynamic driver tech that's out there based on my reading (though I haven't heard it - i do have the elear and it's FAST, can only imagine what the next level of that would be).  The beryllium dome coupled with the formerless voice coil and huge magnet setup.  Supposedly, it's got the speed of electrostatic (instant and clean impulse response) with the slam of a dynamic driver.  It's technicalities alone are said to be "too good", in that it reveals too much to be enjoyable.  I say that's exactly what I'm looking for... the clearest lens into the music and the ability to reveal minute differences in upstream components. It's end game for sure.

Be certain your transport, DAC, and power supplies are up to snuff - utopia will reveal any garbage in your chain.  As soon as used prices come to 2k ish, I'll be picking one up!


----------



## cebuboy

Wildcatsare1 said:


> Same happened too me, and it took out my Focal Clear in the process, Schiit turned it around quickly and it gave me the opportunity to try the Utopias (yes, they are worth the hype). My backup is the CTH, as mentioned, doesn’t have enough power for the Abyss, but sounds wonderful with Focal and Sennheiser.
> 
> On another note, you Westing House D-Getter hoarders, cut a guy a break, I can’t find them anywhere!



Lyr 3 popped my HD650, so far the amp is ok, culprit is a bad tube. Seems to work fine after replacing the suspect tube.


----------



## Wes S

Seems like to me that the motion of plugging the headphones in and out while the tube is running, is a good way to make a microphonic tube?  I always leave mine plugged in so that I am not touching anything but the volume pot, very slowly, as to not create vibrations.  Does anyone else share my thoughts? Schiit said I could leave them plugged in on start up, so that is what I am doing.  If the amp fries my headphones, that seems like schiit should replace them.


----------



## FLTWS

Wes S said:


> Seems like to me that the motion of plugging the headphones in and out while the tube is running, is a good way to make a microphonic tube?  I always leave mine plugged in so that I am not touching anything but the volume pot, very slowly, as to not create vibrations.  Does anyone else share my thoughts? Schiit said I could leave them plugged in on start up, so that is what I am doing.  If the amp fries my headphones, that seems like schiit should replace them.



I guess as long as the 40 second mute doesn't fail at turn on ...

For decades I've tended to make sure my volume is set to 0 (max attenuation) before turn on / turn off and I always unplug my phones. It's almost a muscle memory type thing with me. I've never had a connector wear out on me either. I also always give the amp a few minutes before I plug the phones in on warm up, especially with a tube change. 

Unnecessary? Maybe, but if a tube's gonna' fail or cause a failure in associated circuitry (glow red, blow sparks and smoke, etc.) let it happen before I plug the phones in. I haven't experienced a micro-phonic tube since I sold all my vinyl and no longer needed a tube(s) in a phono stage. And I've bought close to 60 tubes (6DJ8, 12AU7, and 6SN7 types) over the past 2 years without issue, but I pretty much stick to 4 US sellers I have confidence in based on past experience. The only tubes I've ever bought off e-bay are my 4 Fotons, and I'm glad I did - great tubes, but the seller was well vetted by a number of trusted posters on this thread and they were cheap enough that even if they weren't okay or I didn't like the sound the cost was no different than the cost of a good bottle of wine that has a lifespan of minutes after the cork come out so ...


----------



## Wes S (Aug 9, 2018)

FLTWS said:


> I guess as long as the 40 second mute doesn't fail at turn on ...
> 
> For decades I've tended to make sure my volume is set to 0 (max attenuation) before turn on / turn off and I always unplug my phones. It's almost a muscle memory type thing with me. I've never had a connector wear out on me either. I also always give the amp a few minutes before I plug the phones in on warm up, especially with a tube change.
> 
> Unnecessary? Maybe, but if a tube's gonna' fail or cause a failure in associated circuitry (glow red, blow sparks and smoke, etc.) let it happen before I plug the phones in. I haven't experienced a micro-phonic tube since I sold all my vinyl and no longer needed a tube(s) in a phono stage. And I've bought close to 60 tubes (6DJ8, 12AU7, and 6SN7 types) over the past 2 years without issue, but I pretty much stick to 4 US sellers I have confidence in based on past experience. The only tubes I've ever bought off e-bay are my 4 Fotons, and I'm glad I did - great tubes, but the seller was well vetted by a number of trusted posters on this thread and they were cheap enough that even if they weren't okay or I didn't like the sound the cost was no different than the cost of a good bottle of wine that has a lifespan of minutes after the cork come out so ...


40 second mute?  Good info!  thanks!


----------



## FLTWS

From the manual FAQ:
*There’s no sound for a while after I turn Lyr 3 on.
That’s perfectly normal. Lyr 3 has a built in startup
delay (and instant shut-down.) It’s set to 40-45
seconds to let the tube come up and the bias
servo to stabilize.*


----------



## Wes S (Aug 9, 2018)

FLTWS said:


> From the manual FAQ:
> *There’s no sound for a while after I turn Lyr 3 on.
> That’s perfectly normal. Lyr 3 has a built in startup
> delay (and instant shut-down.) It’s set to 40-45
> ...


Cool.  I noticed the delay, but I just did not realize it was that many seconds.  Time flies when you are having fun!


----------



## Zachik

Wildcatsare1 said:


> On the turn on, I had the headphones plugged in when I turned the power on, which was my mistake. Though in my 30 years of audio, this was an unfortunate first.


Was the volume set on very high?!
Did the 40 second mute on first, or did it fail and damaged the headphones?
I do not bother unplugging, but usually lower volume to zero... Am I doing it wrong?


----------



## FLTWS

There is no right / wrong way to do it. You'll figure out what way you feel comfortable with over time and with experience. In a perfect world with perfect equipment...


----------



## Wes S

Bass lovers, the 3 hole Sylvania from 52', is king!

I heard the strongest, deepest, most textured bass I have ever heard in a headphone last night, with my Alpha Prime's.  

This tube is my #1, because it has the most powerful and detailed bass, as well the best mids and great highs.

LYR 3 + MODI MULTIBIT +ALPHA PRIME + SYLVANIA 3 HOLE 52' = ENDGAME


----------



## Ripper2860

END GAME?  So I guess we won't be seeing you in the Lyr 3 Tube Rolling thread anymore?


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> END GAME?  So I guess we won't be seeing you in the Lyr 3 Tube Rolling thread anymore?



LOL, yea! He's retiring from tube buying and rolling.


----------



## Wes S

FLTWS said:


> LOL, yea! He's retiring from tube buying and rolling.


I would love to say this is true . . .but we shall see!  Let just say, I am content for now.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> END GAME?  So I guess we won't be seeing you in the Lyr 3 Tube Rolling thread anymore?


Oh no, I am not leaving this thread.  I am having a fun time reading everyone's experiences.


----------



## FLTWS

If there is one thing I've learned over 40 years as an Audiophiliac, there is no "Final Destination", just rest stops along the way in a never ending quest.


----------



## Zachik

Wes S said:


> Bass lovers, the 3 hole Sylvania from 52', is king!
> 
> I heard the strongest, deepest, most textured bass I have ever heard in a headphone last night, with my Alpha Prime's.
> 
> ...


I hate you guys!!! 
Actually, it is not me, it is my wallet who hates you all. sigh...


----------



## ProfFalkin

FLTWS said:


> LOL, yea! He's retiring from tube buying and rolling.


Lies and propaganda.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 9, 2018)

OK.  So I finally received the $20 Philco-branded / Sylvania-made 2nd week of '53 Bad Boy and I'm a bit disappointed but hopeful.  The seller failed to show or disclose the fact that it had a cracked/broken top mica.  My guess is that it had to be a MFG issue as I cannot find any sign of the broken mica anywhere inside the tube.  The internals seem to be in good shape, with everything where it's supposed to be and all looks secured, so there's still hope.  This one will go to my good buddy for testing BEFORE it gets anywhere near my Lyr 3, however.   (Which BTW is due tomorrow, but no one will be home to sign for it tomorrow or Saturday.   )  Anyhow -- here's pics of the tube, as promised...


----------



## Wes S (Aug 10, 2018)

As I am listening with my "Bad Boy", right now, that sure looks like one.  Good score if it is quiet!

I have literally been waking up an hour early just to listen to my Lyr 3, with Bad Boy, because I just can't get enough.  I am on stage with Rodrigo y Gabriela playing Orion, with them as I am writing this.  I am sitting right between them and can feel them plucking the strings.  Breathtaking!


----------



## FindingNewSound (Aug 10, 2018)

I know this might not be the appropriate place to ask, so sorry in advance, but does anyone have a spare Kenrad vt-231 black glass? I'm looking for one for my Lyr 3. Thanks!


----------



## buonassi

You may have to seek out your victim and offer to perform unnatural acts via pm to get him to part with it.  Just kidding.  Welcome to the thread 

I don't have one but anyone who wants to sell one may just speak up...never know .


----------



## ProfFalkin

I might have one.  Not sure if I'm willing to part with it, as I am using it with my Dragon Inspire.  Let me think about it.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> I might have one.  Not sure if I'm willing to part with it, as I am using it with my Dragon Inspire.  Let me think about it.


There are several on Ebay, as well.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Wes S said:


> There are several on Ebay, as well.


Looks like the price came down too.  6 months ago you couldn't touch one for less than $125.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> Looks like the price came down too.  6 months ago you couldn't touch one for less than $125.


I have noticed that with a few of the famous 6SN7's lately,  several Bad Boys, Tung Sol Round plates, and KenRad's going for around $50 to $60 each.  Now is a good time to find some on Ebay, for good prices.  Hint Hint. . .


----------



## buonassi

53 Foton has about 75 hours on it and 10 or so power/cooling cycles.  I haven't noticed the swing from good to bad to good you guys mentioned.  Is it very apparent, or subtle?  Perhaps it sounds a little less exciting at times, but that could be because I've gotten used to it?


----------



## Ripper2860

It was pretty apparent to me, but not all tubes are the same and maybe your ears or HPs are just more forgiving.  My HPs are pretty neutral with a slight upward tilt, which really makes treble harshness apparent.  The swings are typically treble related and presents itself as harshness in HF and upper mids.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 11, 2018)

@buonassi --  So what is your impression 75 hours in?

Update on my Lyr 3...

My Lyr 3 was to be delivered back to me by FedEx on Fri, 8/10 after service by Schiit.  Unfortunately, I was called into work and the wife and kids were out of town, so no delivery due to signature required.  Received an e-mail notice from FedEX that the delivery would be attempted again on Sat, 8/11.  No problem.  Received 2 more e-mails and a text confirming delivery attempt for Sat., 8/11.

About 5 PM on Saturday, after staying home all day to sign upon delivery, I checked tracking and it showed still at the distribution center and not out for delivery.  Called customer service and explained that I had been home all day to sign and asked them to confirm if it was on the truck or at the distribution center.  They called the center and despite the system showing it was still at the center they were happy to inform me that it was actually on the truck to be delivered and that I would receive it by 9 PM.  So I thought -- Woohoo -- back to my tube rolling ways tonight!!!

Well, 9 PM rolls around and still no delivery. I suspected as much, but hoped for the best.  Insult to injury -- they don't do home delivery on Sunday and Mondays, so now we're looking for a Tuesday delivery!!    M****r screw**s!!!!  I HATE FedEX!!!


----------



## buonassi

my impressions are largely the same.  It's still has the sound characteristics I described earlier in my "what the foton" post.  Only that I've become accustomed to it.  However, once I cleans my sonic palate with solid state, then return to Lyr3/photon, I get the same smile I did when I first popped it in.  

While I can definitely tell the differences between tubes (and pretty easily), I may not be the best at hearing the tube morphing over time.  The reason I say this is because the only change I've noted on any tube so far after putting hours on it, was that it became a little smoother overall - less offensive in the treble, less glarey.  Maybe that's all that really happens and I'm spot on?  This is where being a newbie has its drawbacks and doesn't really help the community.  Sorry all.

Confession:  I can't really say I hear any material difference between a cold and a warm tube yet.  Perhaps it seems to just melt a little more as I listen, but after amp is turned on for about 5 minutes and I start my listening, I can't hear any change at 1 or 2 hours.  Maybe for fun I'll start listeneing right away after the relay clicks and see if it sounds "cold".  Maybe 5 minutes is all it needs to stretch its legs!


----------



## buonassi

oh, and condolences on the fedex delivery racket.


----------



## GoodRevrnd (Aug 12, 2018)

Does Lyr3 not have a startup/shutdown relay mute?  I lost power and fried my Fidelios.  Relieved the AFOs weren't plugged in.

Edit: Well this is disconcertingly timely, just read back two pages and see people talking about this.  So if there is a protection relay, what happened?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 12, 2018)

It has a 45 second startup mute relay and immediate mute on power-off.  Not sure what happened with your power situation, but the power off mute circuit is likely tied to the power-switch and not engaged if power goes out with the switch in ON position.

Did you lose AC power on your outlet/house or did the Lyr 3 just fail and no longer powers on?


----------



## GoodRevrnd

Ripper2860 said:


> It has a 45 second startup mute relay and immediate mute on power-off.  Not sure what happened with your power situation, but the power off mute circuit is likely tied to the power-switch and not engaged if power goes out with the switch in ON position.
> 
> Did you lose AC power on your outlet/house or did the Lyr 3 just fail and no longer powers on?


House power.  Wind storm.


----------



## FLTWS

buonassi said:


> my impressions are largely the same.  It's still has the sound characteristics I described earlier in my "what the foton" post.  Only that I've become accustomed to it.  However, once I cleans my sonic palate with solid state, then return to Lyr3/photon, I get the same smile I did when I first popped it in.
> 
> While I can definitely tell the differences between tubes (and pretty easily), I may not be the best at hearing the tube morphing over time.  The reason I say this is because the only change I've noted on any tube so far after putting hours on it, was that it became a little smoother overall - less offensive in the treble, less glarey.  Maybe that's all that really happens and I'm spot on?  This is where being a newbie has its drawbacks and doesn't really help the community.  Sorry all.
> 
> Confession:  I can't really say I hear any material difference between a cold and a warm tube yet.  Perhaps it seems to just melt a little more as I listen, but after amp is turned on for about 5 minutes and I start my listening, I can't hear any change at 1 or 2 hours.  Maybe for fun I'll start listeneing right away after the relay clicks and see if it sounds "cold".  Maybe 5 minutes is all it needs to stretch its legs!



The acid subjective test would be to buy 2 LYR-3's and a matched pair of tubes of your choice. Run one on a daily schedule of "X" (say 12) amount of hours whether your listening or not. Run the other only for the amount of A/B listening time and always begin listening from a cold start. Keep a log of impressions. Report back to the group! Thanks in advance, .


----------



## Zer0.p0int.Zer0

Ripper2860 said:


> M****r screw**s!!!!  I HATE FedEX!!!



That’s why I always reroute to the FedEx store when it requires a signature. Then you can pickup whenever you want.
Unless you don’t have one nearby. Mine is just down the street.


----------



## Zachik

Zer0.p0int.Zer0 said:


> That’s why I always reroute to the FedEx store when it requires a signature. Then you can pickup whenever you want.
> Unless you don’t have one nearby. Mine is just down the street.


Yeah - me too. Especially since closest FedEx store is 1 block away... saved me a lot of grief several times! Been chasing packages in the past, and it is super frustrating...


----------



## buonassi

Ok....hold the press. Are we now considering that lyr3 fries headphones when power is lost?

I suppose if someone has a cheap pair of earbuds and wants to risk damaging their unit, they can simply yank power cord and observe results. 

Oh and relay findings .  Perhaps I'll grow the cods to try this myself with some cheap Mee audio 15 dollar buds I have here.  But worried about the amp. I'll put a cheap tube in it for sure but could this blow the amp?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Aren't you supposed to be at a wedding?


----------



## rgmffn

bcowen said:


> I would imagine the muting relay engages whenever power is first applied regardless of the switch position. I don't know this for sure, but before we all panic it'd be good to find that out from Schiit. Was the power loss one of those quick off/on events? If so, the capacitors may not have had time to fully discharge leaving some power in the circuit and the mute relay didn't engage due to that.
> 
> If the power was off for several minutes or more, then I have no idea what could have happened.


I don't know if it's the same safety mechanism in the Lyr 3 that's in my Vali 2 but one time I was swapping tubes in my Vali 2, I turned it off, R&R'd the tubes, turned it back on and got this terrifying loud pop in the HPs. It must not have been long enough for things to discharge and reset the muting relay system or something, I assume. I feared the worst but the HPs seemed to have survived. I'm more cautious now.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> I would imagine the muting relay engages whenever power is first applied regardless of the switch position. I don't know this for sure, but before we all panic it'd be good to find that out from Schiit. Was the power loss one of those quick off/on events? If so, the capacitors may not have had time to fully discharge leaving some power in the circuit and the mute relay didn't engage due to that.
> 
> If the power was off for several minutes or more, then I have no idea what could have happened.



That rapid flickering on / off happens where I live often and it bothers me a lot more than if the power just goes off and stays off. And it's never weather related, just the utility screwing around with something or other.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 12, 2018)

So what do you guys think about a UPS/Battery Backup on a Lyr 3, EITR. Modi 2 MB and Loki stack?  A lot of audiophiles detest battery backups claiming it squashes dynamic range and limits amp performance, but I would imagine that's speaker amps with a more demanding and dynamic power needs.  What do you guys think about using them with your Lyr 3 and smaller Schiit stacks?


----------



## FLTWS

Do we have only two units lost at this point? I'd prefer to have Schiit investigate and see what they think happened, determine if anything needs to be done, or if theses were just a combination of unique circumstances or maybe an infant mortality issue with a part or parts. I've already got a pricey line conditioner with surge and spike protection and all that stuff that all my gear plugs into and I don't want to start throwing more money at another box if I don't have to.

I use battery backup on my big box PC's to give me a couple minutes to close out if there's a power outage while they are on, but I have no knowledge of use with an audio system or sonic consequences associated with using one.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 12, 2018)

That I know of, we have …

1x Lyr 3 failure (mine)
1x Lyr 3 failure which took out a focal headphone connected to the Lyr 3
1x power event which took out a heaphone connected to a Lyr 3 (I think the Lyr 3 is A-OK)

The reason I asked about a UPS/Battery Backup is because it's something I've been kicking around even before my Lyr 3 failed.  I do not believe my unit failed due to a power event and I too have some pretty decent surge filtering and line conditioning gear (Furman).  In Texas we have pretty significant Summer and Spring T-Storms that can develop/move-in/move-out quickly with power fluctuations and sporadic flickers with power off/on/off/on over the course of a few seconds.  Its these types of situations that concern me -- especially if I'm not home to power my Lyr 3 and gear off during unattended tube burn-in sessions, etc., (I leave Speakers or HPs connected when burning-in tubes).

BTW -- I have not received my Lyr 3 back from Schiit yet (thanks to FedEx), but I hope to know more about what happened when I finally receive it.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## chef8489

Ripper2860 said:


> That I know of, we have …
> 
> 1x Lyr 3 failure (mine)
> 1x Lyr 3 failure which took out a focal headphone connected to the Lyr 3
> ...


People are idiots if they think a battery backup can affect dynamic range or anything other than interference in your sound. As long as your equipment is supplied the correct amount of power you are good. Btw I run a battery backup on all my pc and audio gear hooked up to my pc. A good one will have an avr build in and a power conditioner.


----------



## GoodRevrnd (Aug 12, 2018)

Typically what happens around here is the quick on/offs.  This time it was off for at least 20s, maybe a couple minutes tho?  And it went out twice.  After it went off the second time I had the presence of mind to power everything off.  It does seem like it takes the caps a long time to deplete.  Shouldn't the mute relays be dependent on a power source *before* the capacitors though?

As far as I can tell the Lyr is fine but the Fidelios are toast.  Electronic smell and they produced tinny barely audible sound.  Was trying to sell these too.  >_<

I should have all this on the UPS but my office is a mess and I need to move everything around to have the right items connected.  =/


----------



## earnmyturns

FindingNewSound said:


> I know this might not be the appropriate place to ask, so sorry in advance, but does anyone have a spare Kenrad vt-231 black glass? I'm looking for one for my Lyr 3. Thanks!


Brent Jessee still has them for $90. I got one from him a few months ago, loving it.


----------



## buonassi

Ripper2860 said:


> it squashes dynamic range and limits amp performance


this all depends on the tech in it.  they certainly can, even on HP amps - as can power strip conditioners with small toroidal ferrite chokes as EMI/RFI filters.  

However, I'm certain there is a UPS backup solution that will not limit dynamics.  You may want to check on (wait, I"m not allowed reference other forums, forgot).  I'll PM you.


----------



## buonassi

chef8489 said:


> A good one will have an avr build in and a power conditioner


UPS w AVR typically the lesser expensive ones, rely on MOVs to regulate the voltage.  They go bad pretty easily over time.  


chef8489 said:


> People are idiots if they think a battery backup can affect dynamic range or anything other than interference in your sound.


there is at least one type of UPS (the ones that run from battery and caps "all the time" vs those that instantaneously switch when failure is detected) that could affect dynamics.  However, for HP amps, you are much less likely to be able to hear any real robbing of dynamics.  Any capacitor (or battery) in line with the power flow that restricts the amperage needed during a loud "burst" of music, could limit the performance.  Again, we're talking HP amps, not monoblocks or subs.


----------



## buonassi

also, most UPS are the "instantaneous switching upon power loss" kind.  Thy use MOVs to regulate small voltage swings and brownouts so that the battery in the UPS is invoked only when needed (preserving it's lifespan).  The battery only kicks in when power is completely lost.


----------



## chef8489

buonassi said:


> also, most UPS are the "instantaneous switching upon power loss" kind.  Thy use MOVs to regulate small voltage swings and brownouts so that the battery in the UPS is invoked only when needed (preserving it's lifespan).  The battery only kicks in when power is completely lost.


Again a good ups wit ha avr and power conditioner you can program for continual voltage regulation and power conditioning. You can set all the factors not just full loss of power. Even a 200-300.00 sinewave ups from cyberpower or APC are programmable. Now you bump up in price to add a power conditioner and you are all set.


----------



## Wes S

The synergy with the Sylvania 3 hole plate, Lyr 3 and Alpha Prime's is incredible.  A match made in heaven.  The Sylvania is warmer than the WH d getter, but does not sacrifice any resolution.  If you are looking for a little more warmth and punch from the bass, try to find a real bad boy.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Aug 13, 2018)

'51 Foton burning in since yesterday.  The Ebay listing said they would '53 Fotons.   I won't complain, and will assume they are similar enough not to matter.

I can see why it is suggested to give this tube a good long burn in.   Initial thoughts were that it sounds syrupy and thick, very shouty, and the treble is etched and bright.   After a day it has settled down a bit.  Thick now sounds more rich than thick, and the bright/etched sound seems less pronounced.  There is something going on here I don't like at all though, as something in the mids seems like they're being piped through a tin can.   It is very hard to describe.  I hope that goes away with burnin.   Female vocals are super good though.

Edit - went back to WH-D for work-time music listening.   The Foton was rubbing me the wrong way, similar to petting a cat backwards.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> '51 Foton burning in since yesterday.  The Ebay listing said they would '53 Fotons.   I won't complain, and will assume they are similar enough not to matter.
> 
> I can see why it is suggested to give this tube a good long burn in.   Initial thoughts were that it sounds syrupy and thick, very shouty, and the treble is etched and bright.   After a day it has settled down a bit.  Thick now sounds more rich than thick, and the bright/etched sound seems less pronounced.  There is something going on here I don't like at all though, as something in the mids seems like they're being piped through a tin can.   It is very hard to describe.  I hope that goes away with burnin.   Female vocals are super good though.
> 
> Edit - went back to WH-D for work-time music listening.   The Foton was rubbing me the wrong way, similar to petting a cat backwards.


I have a couple coming my way too, and I was looking forward to your thoughts.  I have never found a Russian tube I liked, but I thought I would give this one a try, since some here love them.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Wes S said:


> I have a couple coming my way too, and I was looking forward to your thoughts.  I have never found a Russian tube I liked, but I thought I would give this one a try, since some here love them.


I'll pop the Foton in and leave it burning overnight each night this week.  That should get me to 60+ hours pretty quick.   See what I think of it then.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 13, 2018)

I'm not sure if Bill ( @bcowen ) mentioned this, but in order to achieve optimal results, the Fotons MUST be burned-in using the following ...

https://tidal.com/album/10276630

100 hours of play time should do it.  Don't ask me why, but he says this really, really works!


----------



## ilikepooters

Anyone tried the NEVZ 6N8S tubes? Thinking of grabbing one considering how cheap they are.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Aug 13, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm not sure if Bill ( @bcowen ) mentioned this, but in order to achieve optimal results, the Fotons MUST be burned-in using the following ...
> 
> https://tidal.com/album/10276630
> 
> 100 hours of play time should do it.  Don't ask me why, but he says this really, really works!



That may be the problem then.   I've been using Swedish MetalCore-Death-Folk-Fusion-Rap music.   It features heavy use of Nyckelharpa and synth, set to classic Swedish folk songs, with death metal, polka, and hiphop influences.

It's exactly like this, only not:



(I actually really like that song.)


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 13, 2018)

I didn't have a 100 hours to kill, so I just went with 2-1/2 hours of the below.  If that doesn't whip a tube into submission, I don't know what will!!


----------



## ProfFalkin

You would rick roll us?   Really?    The disappointment is real.  

Reported to mods for hostility to other audiophiles...




LOL


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 13, 2018)

I never thought I would resort to Rick Rolling, but with my Lyr 3 out, it's the only Rolling I can do.  Sorry. 

I'll be glad when my Lyr 3 gets back so I can start posting occasionally relevant stuff again.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> I never thought I would resort to Rick Rolling, but with my Lyr 3 out. it's the only Rolling I can do.  Sorry.
> 
> I'll be glad when my Lyr 3 gets back so I can start posting occasionally relevant stuff again.


Yeah, that sucks.  I'll listen to my Lyr 3 for you.   I know that doesn't help you, but I'm going to listen to it anyway.   Sorry.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 13, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Yeah, that sucks.  I'll listen to my Lyr 3 for you.   I know that doesn't help you, but I'm going to listen to it anyway.   Sorry.


Me too!

Ripper2860 - I can't wait to hear your impressions of that bad boy!


----------



## Ripper2860

Unless FedEx totally F's it up again, my Lyr 3 should be waiting for me at a FedEx drop-off station tomorrow evening.  Hopefully I'll be listening to the sultry sounds of tube goodness tomorrow night!


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> I didn't have a 100 hours to kill, so I just went with 2-1/2 hours of the below.  If that doesn't whip a tube into submission, I don't know what will!!



This one should be used for GE tubes!


----------



## FLTWS

LOL!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Zachik said:


> This one should be used for GE tubes!


This is why Ripper can't have nice things


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 13, 2018)

It was that or ...


----------



## FLTWS

This threads a killer!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

Yep, and Mahler always called for more cowbells in his compositions.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

Ripper2860 said:


> MUST be burned-in using the following ...


good one!



FLTWS said:


> Yep, and Mahler always called for more cowbells in his compositions.


i very rarely LOL, but did at this.



bcowen said:


> this isn't a subtle thing or a matter of refinement or polish


I thought these tubes were a matter of Russian?


----------



## ProfFalkin

buonassi said:


> good one!
> 
> 
> i very rarely LOL, but did at this.
> ...


пусть труба горит!


Google Translate is really terrible...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Foton sounds good this AM.    Very good.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 14, 2018)

Excellent!!  Did you go with Russian Folks Songs or Rick Astley??

BTW -- My Lyr 3 is awaiting pickup at the FedEx Drop-off site.  Woohoo!!!   Barring the site burning down or a tornado, it'll be back in service this evening!!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Excellent!!  Did you go with Russian Folks Songs or Rick Astley??
> 
> BTW -- My Lyr 3 is awaiting pickup at the FedEx Drop-off site Woohoo!!!   Barring the site burning down or a tornado, it'll be back in service this evening!!


Excellent!   *No more magic smoke, ok?*

I put on a playlist of Rebecca Pidgeon, Miles Davis, Opeth, BB King, Eric Clapton, The Pineapple Thief, Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree, and Deadmau5 tracks on repeat and then went home.  (Not to get too specific...)   

I left the thing playing for about 14 hours.  If this tube sounds good, it's probably Rebecca's fault.   Yeah, that's it.  That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## Ripper2860

ProfFalkin said:


> Excellent! *No more magic smoke, ok?*



Not if I can help it.  All my tubes have now been independently tested and verified as good, so even if it was a bad or marginal tube, I should be good.  My new policy is to never insert an eBay purchased tube into my Lyr (even those that show as tested) unless I have had them retested by someone I trust.  Just in case.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Not if I can help it.  All my tubes have now been independently tested and verified as good, so even if it was a bad or marginal tube, I should be good.  My new policy is to never insert an eBay purchased tube into my Lyr (even those that show as tested) unless I have had them retested by someone I trust.  Just in case.


Good plan!  I might have to find a tube testing source, for myself.


----------



## ProfFalkin

I send all mine to @bcowen for testing.  He does it for free and even pays for shipping.  I guess he really likes testing tubes.



*Runs and hides...*


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> Not if I can help it.  All my tubes have now been independently tested and verified as good, so even if it was a bad or marginal tube, I should be good.  My new policy is to never insert an eBay purchased tube into my Lyr (even those that show as tested) unless I have had them retested by someone I trust.  Just in case.



At the very least don't plug your phones in until a few minutes after warm up on the tube.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 14, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> I send all mine to @bcowen for testing.  He does it for free and even pays for shipping.  I guess he really likes testing tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> *Runs and hides...*



WTH!!!   He's been charging me $7.50 labor per tube + plus an additional $.75 per test for electricity used by his tester.  Don't even get me started on his shipping and "handling" fees!!  

BTW -- I'm starting to get really suspicious.  @bcowen fails 95% of my tubes and then says he's disposing of them "for my own good".


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 14, 2018)

Ahhhhhhhhhhh.   My Lyr 3 is back and nestled next to my Modi MB, Eitr and Loki Stack.  I've plopped in a Brent Jesse sourced 40's Sylvania VT-231 tube and I am basking in tube splendor once more!!!  

Those guys at Schiit crack me up.  The RMA service form describes the service claim as "Burned Up" and service repair indicates they replaced  +/- 15v regulators and L+R servos.  No indication as to the root cause of the failure, but I'm just happy to have her back.


----------



## FLTWS

To me that sounds like a parts failure, infant mortality situation. These do happen on occasion. I've seen it stated many times that a part will either fail in just a few short hours or it will last forever, so...

But I guess a tube issue could also precipitate a failure of other parts.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Ahhhhhhhhhhh.   My Lyr 3 is back and nestled next to my Modi MB, Eitr and Loki Stack.  I've plopped in a Brent Jesse sourced 40's Sylvania VT-231 tube and I am basking in tube splendor once more!!!
> 
> Those guys at Schiit crack me up.  The RMA service form describes the service claim as "Burned Up".  Service repair indicates they replaced  +/- 15v regulators and L+R servos.  No indication as to the root cause of the failure, but I'm just happy to have her back.


Welcome back!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> Yeah, but I only send the um, 'good' tubes back as Ripper knows. No sense in paying extra shipping to return a bad tube, right? I don't know where Ripper is buying all of his, but I've never run across so many weak and/or shorted tubes. In fact, I'm probably gonna have to start charging him a disposal fee.



Well, now that his LYR3 is back he's got to start bulking up on more new tubes to replace all the bad ones he sent to you for testing.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 14, 2018)

bcowen said:


> I don't know where Ripper is buying all of his, but I've never run across so many weak and/or shorted tubes.



Well, I'm asking for a second opinion on those tubes and will need them back.  I'll be preparing a Writ of Habeus Tubus.

Out of 30 tubes I sent, only 1 made it back as good and it was a GE.  I don't even own a GE tube.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I thought they were all National Union.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Too late. Just sold them all on Ebay as "Obtained from an audiophile that is unloading all his tubes. Appear to be NOS, but can make no guarantees."
> 
> I'll send you a percentage of the take...



We need to have a chat about that Tung Sol you labeled as a "bad boy"...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 14, 2018)

Or maybe you posted thinking you were on your 'masochist' forum.


----------



## ProfFalkin

You guys are fun


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, I'm asking for a second opinion on those tubes and will need them back.  I'll be preparing a Writ of Habeus Tubus.
> 
> Out of 30 tubes I sent, only 1 made it back as good and it was a GE.  I don't even own a GE tube.





bcowen said:


> He's exaggerating. I've only flunked 50% of his tubes. Can't remember which ones I sent back though...the bad ones or the good ones.  Dang memory.



_Yesh. I’m sticking with solid state until I grow up. And seek out superior recordings. My hobbies (SCUBA, chainsaws, telescopes, knives/axes) are pricey & finicky enough._


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 15, 2018)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Yesh. I’m sticking with solid state until I grow up.



You know we're kidding, right?  

Out of 30 tubes tested there was 1x questionable tube and one bad one.  Jury is still out whether the questionable tube damaged the Lyr which then fried the tube subsequently tested as bad.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Don't ever do either: stick with solid state....or grow up.


Words of wisdom.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Or it was the Russians.


----------



## FLTWS

Tubes or solid state. Hmmm. Let's have both!


----------



## Ripper2860

^^^  We have a winner!!!!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Powered off the Lyr 3 overnight.   I figured it could use a break.    Man, that '51 Foton took a good hour to warm up and sound like it did yesterday.    

Anyhow...  The tube has over 50 hours on it now, and I have about 15 hours of listening time put in so far.  It's a very rich and musical sounding tube.  When it was new, it did sound hollow and congested and really bloated.  At this point, those issues seem to be gone.  It's now smooth and full sounding.  Treble is crisp without being bright.  Background detail is readily apparent.  Mids seem to be the real star of the Foton.  SRV's Voodoo Child or Tin Pan Alley are so fun with this tube.  The guitar and vocals have such presence, warmth, and detail.   It is enthralling.   

The WH-D is definitely more neutral and seems to be a more honest presentation of the music.  For the Eikon, I think the WH-D is a better pairing as the headphone already has a bit of warmth and fun to it.  For headphones with more of a dry / neutral presentation than the Eikon, the Foton would be an excellent match to liven things up.   

Since I'm really only 1/2 way through the burn-in process - assuming it will completely settle in after 100 hours - it will be interesting to see if anything changes.   I'd be happy if the sound stayed the way it was, tbh.


----------



## Wes S

Got to be the Russ


ProfFalkin said:


> Powered off the Lyr 3 overnight.   I figured it could use a break.    Man, that '51 Foton took a good hour to warm up and sound like it did yesterday.
> 
> Anyhow...  The tube has over 50 hours on it now, and I have about 15 hours of listening time put in so far.  It's a very rich and musical sounding tube.  When it was new, it did sound hollow and congested and really bloated.  At this point, those issues seem to be gone.  It's now smooth and full sounding.  Treble is crisp without being bright.  Background detail is readily apparent.  Mids seem to be the real star of the Foton.  SRV's Voodoo Child or Tin Pan Alley are so fun with this tube.  The guitar and vocals have such presence, warmth, and detail.   It is enthralling.
> 
> ...


Good stuff!  How is the bass?  Compared to WH-D?


----------



## ProfFalkin (Aug 16, 2018)

Wes S said:


> Got to be the Russ
> 
> Good stuff!  How is the bass?  Compared to WH-D?


The Foton has noticeably more bass quantity.  It thumps.  I haven't noticed a lack of texture or detail either.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 16, 2018)

It being ... ???

WH D has more bass or Foton has more bass?  BC seems to think that WH D had more slam/impact in the bass.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> It being ... ???
> 
> WH D has more bass or Foton has more bass.  RC seems to think that WH D had more slam/impact in the bass.


Edited for clarity.

I'll throw the WH-D in when I get back to my office.  From memory, the Foton had more bass.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 16, 2018)

Thanks. I'd be interested on your thoughts as it compares to slam/impact of the bass and which goes deeper and is more pronounced.  As I recall, my impression was the WH D went lower and had more slam, but Foton had a more prominent bass. 

(I'd do it, but I have a Sylvie 6SN7W short bottle cooking right now.)  

I'm back in the saddle aqain!!!!  Tube Rollers. mount up!!


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> The Foton has noticeably more bass quantity.  It thumps.  I haven't noticed a lack of texture or detail either.


Damn! Well, I am glad I have a couple in the mail.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ok, I did a little A/B using my normal bass test track.   I use that track to test bass as it extends LOW low low, and doesn't have a ton of other things going on so you can clearly hear it.   (I actually don't care for the song much.)  I ran the track through 3 times on the Foton then switched to the WH-D.

Switching between tubes illustrates an interesting difference.  Normal WH-D volume is at 9 o'clock.   I have to stretch that up to 10:30 on the Foton for it to sound equally loud.   I'm playing it by ear here, so take that into account.

Impressions are that the WH-D bass quantity (overall volume) is a touch less than the Foton, but it's a tough call.  I think the WH-D did render the lowest bass hit with a little bit more volume, but the Foton seemed to hit the rest of the bass freq louder.  So, yes, I think the WH-D might extend a bit lower.  

As far as impact, slam, or whatever you want to call it... I'll call it a tie.  I think you wouldn't notice the difference unless you A/B'd the two tubes.  There is no doubt that both tubes can do bass.   Neither one gets sloppy, fuzzy, or bloated.

------------------

So.. on to other songs.

VAST - Pretty When You Cry  -  I like the Foton more here.  The song seems appropriately fuzzy when it should, and clear everywhere else.  This is a song that can sound confused and mushy on crap gear (like in my car).

Playing Bassnectar's track Reaching Out. Both tubes sound very good.  The Foton seems a bit more enjoyable with electronic music.

AC/DC's song Who Made Who... I prefer the WH-D for this.   It seems to present the busy guitar work with better separation and clarity.

Avenged Sevelfold's song Coming Home - same as above.  The Foton makes some of the guitar work sound a little hollow, and it's clearer on the WH-D despite the Foton bringing the guitar more forward in the song.

Ed Sheeran's song I See Fire - WH-D wins.   You can clearly hear details better.  It vibes better with Ed's voice.  String plucks sound more natural.

---------------------

All tests done on high gain, btw.


----------



## 441879 (Aug 16, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> So what do you guys think about a UPS/Battery Backup on a Lyr 3, EITR. Modi 2 MB and Loki stack?  A lot of audiophiles detest battery backups claiming it squashes dynamic range and limits amp performance, but I would imagine that's speaker amps with a more demanding and dynamic power needs.  What do you guys think about using them with your Lyr 3 and smaller Schiit stacks?



Personal opinion is that before I worry about the audio impact of a UPS on a 28 W headphone amp, I’ll worry about the replacement cost of my headphones. After all, if the UPS can keep up with the high end graphics card in my PC (which draws a lot more power at ghz rates of change) without data errors, I figure it will probably keep up with the Lyr. Now I’d probably not feel that way if I had a 500 WPC amplifier hooked up to some amp hungry speakers.

Speaking more generally, any effect is likely to be small compared to things like running the oven, clothes dryer or vacuum cleaner.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> Ok, I did a little A/B using my normal bass test track.   I use that track to test bass as it extends LOW low low, and doesn't have a ton of other things going on so you can clearly hear it.   (I actually don't care for the song much.)  I ran the track through 3 times on the Foton then switched to the WH-D.
> 
> Switching between tubes illustrates an interesting difference.  Normal WH-D volume is at 9 o'clock.   I have to stretch that up to 10:30 on the Foton for it to sound equally loud.   I'm playing it by ear here, so take that into account.
> 
> ...


Good stuff! Thanks for the info!


----------



## Ripper2860

ProfFalkin said:


> Ok, I did a little A/B using my normal bass test track.   I use that track to test bass as it extends LOW low low, and doesn't have a ton of other things going on so you can clearly hear it.   (I actually don't care for the song much.)  I ran the track through 3 times on the Foton then switched to the WH-D.
> 
> Switching between tubes illustrates an interesting difference.  Normal WH-D volume is at 9 o'clock.   I have to stretch that up to 10:30 on the Foton for it to sound equally loud.   I'm playing it by ear here, so take that into account.
> 
> ...



Wow.  Much appreciated.  If anything, as I recall, there are many more similarities than differences and those differences are typically subtle.

Thanks!!


----------



## ProfFalkin (Aug 16, 2018)

I would recommend the early 50's foton as the #1 tube for the Lyr 3, seeing as how the WH-Ds seem to be unobtainium at the moment.

I think the Foton has a slightly richer tone.  It's not without it's quirks though.  It seems to take longer to burn in, and takes longer to warm up from cold vs other tubes. 

My preference still leans to the WH-D, generally.


----------



## FLTWS

Bottom line; you can't go wrong with either tube.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Different flavours of the Westinghouse D too.

I'm rocking the short bottle GTB variant atm and seems more pleasing to my ears than the medium bottle GT and GTA variants.

touch more slam, touch more presence in the treble (whilst still being smooth) and soundstage a touch more spacious.


----------



## Wes S

ilikepooters said:


> Different flavours of the Westinghouse D too.
> 
> I'm rocking the short bottle GTB variant atm and seems more pleasing to my ears than the medium bottle GT and GTA variants.
> 
> touch more slam, touch more presence in the treble (whilst still being smooth) and soundstage a touch more spacious.


Speaking of bottle hight, it seems that my favorite tubes are all tall bottle.  I wonder if there is something to that?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I have a tall bottle Reliatron labeled WH D getter tube, so it's not just short bottles that are labeled Reliatron.


----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> In general my experience is similar -- the taller bottle versions of any particular tube/manufacturer seem to sound better.  With the WH D's though, I like the shorter bottle version better. Now is that because the short(er) ones have the Reliatron labeling and the tall ones don't?  Hell if I know...



that very short GTB on the left is what i'm listening to and really like.


----------



## Ripper2860

BTW -- Don't tell him I told y'all, but @bcowen 's  fondness of the WH D short bottle has nothing to do with how it sounds...

He likes it because it's easier to handle with his small hands.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## chef8489

One day I might be able to get a WH d getter lol.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> But then you'll apparently have to listen to it.  Pretty involved.


Hey if I can get one I am all for listening to it lol.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm actively keeping an eye out for a WH D for you.  If I track one down, I'll PM you.


----------



## Ripper2860

chef8489 said:


> Hey if I can get one I am all for listening to it lol.



Check you PM.


----------



## Zachik

chef8489 said:


> One day I might be able to get a WH d getter lol.





Ripper2860 said:


> I'm actively keeping an eye out for a WH D for you.  If I track one down, I'll PM you.



@chef8489 - I got a couple so next time I see one on eBay, I will PM you, although I am suspecting Ripper would find it sooner and beat me to it PM-ing you... 
Also, keep in mind some sellers won't mention D-getter, so do not just rely on text in eBay listing. Last one I got (on its way to me) did not mention D getter at all... Ran across it by sheer luck, and saw the getter in the photos.  FYI.


----------



## chef8489

I am stuck till next month on getting one. Just how it is right now as my income is really tight at the moment.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Ripper2860 said:


> Or it was the Russians.




Come to think of it, when mine went up a puff of white smoke, it was a Russian Tube as well. Hmmmm, damn that Putin’s a sly one,  today Schiit Amps, tomorrow the World!

Fortunately, I’m playing it safe and enjoying one of those rare, precious WH D-Getters, thanks to the very kind @bcowen (Bill), a gentleman, scholar, who swore to me that @Ripper2860 wouldnt miss it .


----------



## FLTWS

Wildcatsare1 said:


> Come to think of it, when mine went up a puff of white smoke, it was a Russian Tube as well. Hmmmm, damn that Putin’s a sly one,  today Schiit Amps, tomorrow the World!
> 
> Fortunately, I’m playing it safe and enjoying one of those rare, precious WH D-Getters, thanks to the very kind @bcowen (Bill), a gentleman, scholar, who swore to me that @Ripper2860 wouldnt miss it .



Was it a stock tube? new 6SN7 or NOS 6N8S?


----------



## ProfFalkin

FLTWS said:


> Was it a stock tube? new 6SN7 or NOS 6N8S?


Or a 5U4G perhaps?   ... because that would cause issues.


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> Or a 5U4G perhaps?   ... because that would cause issues.



Typically, are 5U4G used on the driver side or in the power supply, rectifier?


----------



## Wildcatsare1

FLTWS said:


> Was it a stock tube? new 6SN7 or NOS 6N8S?



It was one of my four Photon Tubes, the other three were fine.


----------



## FLTWS

Wildcatsare1 said:


> It was one of my four Photon Tubes, the other three were fine.



Hmmm!


----------



## Wildcatsare1

FLTWS said:


> Hmmm!



That’s the “event” that fried my Clears.


----------



## Ripper2860

Wildcatsare1 said:


> who swore to me that @Ripper2860 wouldnt miss it .



Well, that explains a lot.  And to add insult to injury, I'm pretty he charged me to ship it to you.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, that explains a lot.  And to add insult to injury, I'm pretty he charged me to ship it to you.



Damn Bill, he’s on to you .


----------



## ProfFalkin

FLTWS said:


> Typically, are 5U4G used on the driver side or in the power supply, rectifier?


Rectifier.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

bcowen said:


> Well I'm pleased to hear it's working nicely in your amp. Took me a while to straighten the pins and clean off all the baked-on foodstuff after getting it from @Ripper2860. I'm surprised he could even tell it was a 6SN7, let alone a WH...



I wondered why it had the faint odor of fried chicken....


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 20, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Well I'm pleased to hear it's working nicely in your amp. Took me a while to straighten the pins and clean off all the baked-on foodstuff after getting it from @Ripper2860. I'm surprised he could even tell it was a 6SN7, let alone a WH...



That 'foodstuff' was chicken-fried steak.  The state dinner of Texas!!  I like to use my tube pins as a fork when the kids haven't washed the dishes -- again.  I got so many WH D's it really doesn't matter.  Plus cream gravy is non-conductive.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Mine smell like a$s and taco meat.    The smell of victory.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Plus cream gravy is non-conductive.


Makes the mids sound silky smooth...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

No comment.


----------



## Ripper2860

A line has been crossed...


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Yes, I can’t, and won’t try to top that ...

Now as far as chicken fried steak goes, during my three tours of Texas, Witchita Falls during college to work as a roughneck, San Angelo for training, and back to Midland to work. Now that I’m guilty of miss smelling (and not as nearly as far South as the Professor) chicken fried steak, I’m going to have to turn in my Texan Card .


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 20, 2018)

Shhhh.  Don't tell anyone, but after 35 years in Texas, I've only had CFS twice and didn't like it.  Im a southern boy and no a fan of cream gravy.  Countey Style Steak and Meatloaf...  Yum!


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Ripper2860 said:


> Shhhh.  Don't tell anyone, but after 35 years in Texas, I've only had CFS twice and didn't like it.  Im aa southern boy and no a fan of cream gravy.  cCountey Style Teak and Meatloaf...  Yum!



I’m also a Southern Boy, love cream gravy and CFS, but hate grits!!!


----------



## Ripper2860

Hate grits?!  I'm revoking your southern boy card.


----------



## buonassi

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-...l&utm_source=watched_forum_thread_messagetext

Ken Rad up for sale, pretty much NOS


----------



## Wes S (Aug 21, 2018)

buonassi said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-...l&utm_source=watched_forum_thread_messagetext
> 
> Ken Rad up for sale, pretty much NOS


And noisy.  I would pass.  Especially for the price.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Aug 21, 2018)

Someone get them before they are gone.   Two WH-Ds.

edit - Ok, so I caved in and bought those two.   I only need 1, so if anyone wants the other then shoot me a PM.   $55.   I'll cover shipping and PP fees.   


No warranty, tube sold as is, no returns, Caveat emptor, see original ebay listing for details, etc...  You get the picture.


----------



## Zachik

ProfFalkin said:


> Someone get them before they are gone.   Two WH-Ds.
> 
> edit - Ok, so I caved in and bought those two.   I only need 1, so if anyone wants the other then shoot me a PM.   $55.   I'll cover shipping and PP fees.
> 
> ...


@chef8489 - your chance to have a WH D getter! PM @ProfFalkin and get 1 from him.


----------



## chef8489

ProfFalkin said:


> Someone get them before they are gone.   Two WH-Ds.
> 
> edit - Ok, so I caved in and bought those two.   I only need 1, so if anyone wants the other then shoot me a PM.   $55.   I'll cover shipping and PP fees.
> 
> ...


Sent a pm


----------



## ProfFalkin

chef8489 said:


> Sent a pm


Check your messages man!


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> Someone get them before they are gone.   Two WH-Ds.
> 
> edit - Ok, so I caved in and bought those two.   I only need 1, so if anyone wants the other then shoot me a PM.   $55.   I'll cover shipping and PP fees.
> 
> ...


Score!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Hoarder.
> 
> Wait...you're selling one.
> 
> Semi-Hoarder.


Wrong.

I had a very good Friend send me a message expressing interest, and Chef has been wanting one so bad...    so I sold them both at cost to those guys.

I'll find another later.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 21, 2018)

A Magnanimous Hoarder, but a Hoarder none-the-less.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 21, 2018)

Well, since Chef is jumping on PF's eBay purchase, I'll put this one out there for any that might still want a WH D Getter.  This is an EICO-branded Westinghouse-made 6SN7GTB tube with the 337 WD MFG code, black offset ladder plates, and a top getter holder confirmed as a D by the seller via private message.  (You can just make it out in one of the images)

Listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/292683295372?ul_noapp=true

PM excerpt ...



> hey rich,i have added more pictures as per your request,yes d getter,337/60-09 BR,MADE IN U.S.A,IN ORIGINAL BOX,MADE BY WESTINGHOUSE FOR EICO,DO YOU HAVE AN EICO AMP,I HAD ONE A VERY LONG TIME AGO AND WISH I NEVER GOT RID OF IT////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////AND SOME BELL AMPS AS WELL AS BOGEN AMPS//////////////////////////////////ALL CLASSIC TUBE STUFF,I THINK THIS IS THE TUBE YOU WANT AND 20$ AINT BAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////PEACE//////////////////////////////////TAMMY


----------



## Wes S

Can't wait to see how high that one goes for!


----------



## Wildcatsare1

ProfFalkin said:


> Wrong.
> 
> I had a very good Friend send me a message expressing interest, and Chef has been wanting one so bad...    so I sold them both at cost to those guys.
> 
> I'll find another later.



Professor, you are a really nice guy, no matter what @Ripper2860 says!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Wildcatsare1 said:


> Professor, you are a really nice guy, no matter what @Ripper2860 says!


Shhhhh...  Don't tell anyone.  I have a reputation to uphold.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 21, 2018)

Wildcatsare1 said:


> Professor, you are a really nice guy, no matter what @Ripper2860 says!



Don't give @ProfFalkin too much credit.  He's shipping Chef and his buddy the earlier referenced 'Victorious A$s Taco Meat' tubes and keeping these fresh new ones for himself.  


Note:  I almost heaved while typing this.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead (Aug 21, 2018)

Just poked my head over here to see what trouble I could get into if I tried swapping out tubes .... I love the sound with the Tung Sol (and actually the LISST too), but why not.

It could be fun, and it seems the only trouble is to the wallet.  I've never "tube-rolled" in the past for any of my 2 channel gear mainly b/c the manufacturers were pretty snarky, and I have no ability (or more importantly desire) to manually adjust bias etc.  The Lyr 3 is my first tube head-amp, and seems kind of ideal to fiddle with.  Unless you seriously screw the pooch, you can't break it.  Also we only need one tube, so no issues with matched sets etc.

The only thing I haven't seen yet in the thread... does anyone have thoughts around reducing hum with any of the tubes you recommend, or is it just inherent with the design with any tube in this amp?  It doesn't bother me, but with sensitive phones at low volumes it's audible.  With the LISST - vanishes, but then...

I think I'll dip my toe in gently*

*probably said at some point by everyone on this thread before acquiring  of dollars in tubes


----------



## ProfFalkin

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> Just poked my head over here to see what trouble I could get into if I tried swapping out tubes .... I love the sound with the Tung Sol (and actually the LISST too), but why not.
> 
> It could be fun, and it seems the only trouble is to the wallet.  I've never "tube-rolled" in the past for any of my 2 channel gear mainly b/c the manufacturers were pretty snarky, and I have no ability (or more importantly desire) to manually adjust bias etc.  The Lyr 3 is my first tube head-amp, and seems kind of ideal to fiddle with.  Unless you seriously screw the pooch, you can't break it.  Also we only need one tube, so no issues with matched sets etc.
> 
> ...


What kind of sensitive phones?

That's about the only thing I can think of that would cause a hum with the Lyr.   Use low gain.

My only other advice would be to know what you want to improve upon from the TS or LISST, and go from there.   The Ken Rad black glass, Westinghouse D getter, and 50's Foton tubes are commonly regarded as some of the best for Lyr, but without knowing more I couldn't advise which one to steer you towards.


----------



## buonassi

ProfFalkin said:


> What kind of sensitive phones?



I used my CA Jupiters on this thing and it wasn't half bad.....  Sure a tiny bit of hiss but I expected way more.


----------



## chef8489

Shh I am not getting the tube till next month if it is good if he sells it to me.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 22, 2018)

NP.  I figured he worked with you.  Just glad you're finally getting a crack at owning a WH D.  

Quite a generous act on his behalf, but far be it from me to not use this opportunity to poke fun.  Let's face it -- he would not pass up the opportunity if the roles were reversed.


----------



## ProfFalkin

*whistles innocently*


----------



## ProfFalkin

chef8489 said:


> Shh I am not getting the tube till next month if it is good if he sells it to me.



  Lots of ifs.

It's going to take a week for it to get here.  I'll test it in my amp to make sure it's not bad.  By then it should be ready to send to you.   We're good


----------



## chef8489

ProfFalkin said:


> Lots of ifs.
> 
> It's going to take a week for it to get here.  I'll test it in my amp to make sure it's not bad.  By then it should be ready to send to you.   We're good


Well one never knows what could happen.


----------



## ProfFalkin

That's fair.


----------



## buonassi

Just posted in sale thread.  
*Sylvania 6SN7 Bad Boy 3-Hole (Lyr 3) from Brent Jesse*


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead (Aug 22, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> What kind of sensitive phones?
> 
> That's about the only thing I can think of that would cause a hum with the Lyr.   Use low gain.
> 
> My only other advice would be to know what you want to improve upon from the TS or LISST, and go from there.   The Ken Rad black glass, Westinghouse D getter, and 50's Foton tubes are commonly regarded as some of the best for Lyr, but without knowing more I couldn't advise which one to steer you towards.



Thank you.  You are correct that it's only (and it's true with other amps too) with some sensitive phones / IEMs.  Specifically, Mezze 99 Classics, Oriolus LTD, A&K T8ie MKII, Beyerdynamic Xelento are a few.  This is not completely mitigated by low gain, but I don't listen to those on high gain (and rarely if ever using this amp anyway).  It is mitigated completely with an iFi IEMatch using the appropriate sensitivity.  It's also (to a much smaller extent) evident with HD800S, Mr Speakers Ether C Flow and Focal Clear on high gain, (Clear and Ether sometimes on Low too) all of those vary in impedance and sensitivity.  With all that, I was just wondering if some tubes exhibited a bit less hum than others in this amp.  It's really not a huge issue at all.  Once I turn on the tunes, it's barely audible when listening at soft volumes and not at all at "normal" / "comfortable" levels.  tl;dr - just curious if tubes affect it at all.  I love this little thing.  Now I want to "turn knobs" and fiddle with it for a bit.

Overall, my experience has been to change transducers or entire pieces of equipment to flavor the sound (or just EQ the music), so I couldn't directly say what I'd point to improving.  I just want to play a bit and see how big a change some tubes make.  While some tubes certainly aren't "cheap", it's more of an experiment for me to play and learn.  Honestly, if I never knew there was such a thing as tube rolling, I'd have never given it a second thought.  I'd have just listened in bliss and never wondered what I could do to play with it further.

If it helps - To my ears, the Lyr3 -Tung Sol when mated with the HD800S makes a gorgeous combination.  I don't like the LISST with the HD800S, but I almost prefer the LISST with the Mezze's and the Clears.  It depends on the music.  With the closed cans, heck if a tube can help with expanding the soundstage - why the heck not...

I also want to see how changing tubes affects powered monitors (LS50Ws) using it as a pre-amp.  I don't currently have it set up this way, but when I tried it for a bit it was fun.  I could see buying another one to use that way if the sound works (Note: I use the internal MB DAC in that use case).  I think the LS50Ws are more "revealing" than even the HD800S and could use a touch of softening and tube magic in some cases.  I listen to a lot of old rock that quite frankly needs the soft touch of a good tube now and again.  Running a tube buffer isn't an option when using them direct from digital inputs, which is my situation.

You're generous to offer the help.  I really don't "need" to improve anything nor am I looking for something specific, but if it's out there, I'll know it when I hear it... I guess...

Of the 3 you mention I've already found a Ken Rad (but not sure about the black glass) locally, so...

(humming Molly Hatchet) - "I'm traveling down the road, and I'm flirtin' with disaster..."


----------



## Wes S

Those WH D getters are going so fast, it will make your head spin!


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

Wes S said:


> Those WH D getters are going so fast, it will make your head spin!


tell me about it i miss every damn one of them.


----------



## Wes S

buonassi said:


> Just posted in sale thread.
> *Sylvania 6SN7 Bad Boy 3-Hole (Lyr 3) from Brent Jesse*


Thanks for that!  It is on it's way to me


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, since Chef is jumping on PF's eBay purchase, I'll put this one out there for any that might still want a WH D Getter.  This is an EICO-branded Westinghouse-made 6SN7GTB tube with the 337 WD MFG code, black offset ladder plates, and a top getter holder confirmed as a D by the seller via private message.  (You can just make it out in one of the images)
> 
> Listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/292683295372?ul_noapp=true
> 
> PM excerpt ...


Wish it had been tested!


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Wes S said:


> Thanks for that!  It is on it's way to me



You’ll love it, the “Bad Boy” and the elusive WH D-Getters are the two tubes I’ve heard in the Lyr 3, followed closely by the KenRad VT-231.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 22, 2018)

Wildcatsare1 said:


> You’ll love it, the “Bad Boy” and the elusive WH D-Getters are the two tubes I’ve heard in the Lyr 3, followed closely by the KenRad VT-231.


I know I will love it.  I have had one in my Lyr 3 for weeks now.  This is my 5th backup.   I could not pass up a perfectly balanced "Bad Boy", from Brent Jesse.  This 1 is going in the amp and the other 5 are backups.


----------



## quimbo

Wes S said:


> Wish it had been tested!



I picked it up, first and only bid, time will tell if it goes in my good or not good pile


----------



## chef8489

How does the bad boy compare to the vt-231 and wh d getter? I have a sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome dome from 57. Not sure how that compares to a bad boy.


----------



## Ripper2860

quimbo said:


> I picked it up, first and only bid, time will tell if it goes in my good or not good pile



I'm glad it was a fellow head-fier.  I was tempted to scarf it up, but wanted to let others in on the WH D getter fun.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 22, 2018)

quimbo said:


> I picked it up, first and only bid, time will tell if it goes in my good or not good pile


I am not sure if you have a tester, but I would be a bit careful with untested tubes.


chef8489 said:


> How does the bad boy compare to the vt-231 and wh d getter? I have a sylvania 6sn7gtb chrome dome from 57. Not sure how that compares to a bad boy.


Read back a few pages, to read my comparison between the Bad Boy and WH D.

Basically the WH D is neutral to perfection and the Bad Boy is a tad warmer, and has stronger bass.  They both have magical mids, with perfect tone.  I lean toward the Bad Boy, but would be happy with either one.


----------



## quimbo

Wes S said:


> I am not sure if you have a tester, but I would be a bit careful with untested tubes.



I do not have one. the price was worth the gamble.  I usually buy my tubes from AZTubes http://arizonatubesupply.com/


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Wes S said:


> I know I will love it.  I have had one in my Lyr 3 for weeks now.  This is my 5th backup.   I could not pass up a perfectly balanced "Bad Boy", from Brent Jesse.  This 1 is going in the amp and the other 5 are backups.



So you are telling us you are horrifying Bad Boys, that’s just sounds wrong .


----------



## Wes S (Aug 22, 2018)

Wildcatsare1 said:


> So you are telling us you are horrifying Bad Boys, that’s just sounds wrong .


Yes!   This tube is it for me.  I love the warm and weighty, yet resolving sound, with a wide 3d soundstage.  Using my Alpha Prime headphones.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> Subject to the exact details of the pooch screwing, that may not be entirely true. Paraphrasing Schiit's own comments, putting a bad (ie: shorted or leaky) tube in the Lyr could result in a very bad day. Although it's lots of fun looking for the screamin' deal of the day on Ebay, I'd highly recommend that at least initially you purchase from a reputable vendor that performs thorough testing. You'll pay more (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot), but you minimize the risk of a self-inflicted bad day.
> 
> In your post a little further forward on the hum, I can't speak for high sensitivity 'phones but I have Aeon Opens that are very similar in impedance and sensitivity to your Ethers. With only one exception (marginal tube) I don't get any audible hum even with the volume cranked wide open, and my Lyr has seen more tubes rolled through it than it ever signed up for. I have my whole stack of Schiit plugged into a pair of Shunyata Hydras which may help or preclude the problem altogether, but in my experience the tube itself is usually at the bottom of the list of suspects for a hum problem. Look first at what your gear is plugged into being careful to avoid ground-induced hum with interconnected components plugged into different wall outlets, etc. The tube itself is more prone to noise (hiss, microphonics, etc) than hum, but fortunately for us octal tubes are far less susceptible to that issue than 9-pin tubes like 6922's, 12Ax7's, 396A's, etc.


Thank you very much.  That is extremely helpful.  Of specific note, no other components use AC (battery from laptop).  Overall, it is very, very quiet.  The primary reason I was associating it with the tube is that when I switch to the LISST, there's no noise.  It really is no bother at all.  Just learning a bit re: tubes and what to look out for.

I've now caught up from page one on the thread... With @Ripper2860 over here, I knew it would be interesting, but you guys are a blast (and very helpful). I am actually going to try and buy some less expensive tubes of ill-repute (maybe I'll find a GE) along with one or two more highly-regarded tubes, just to see if I can hear the difference.  In hindsight, I should have had Schiit ship both tubes (bought a spare) along with the LISST so I could try listening to the difference between tubes.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

^^^^


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 22, 2018)

I suspect it's an image from an eBay seller and not his stash, but ...

Hmmmm.  He doth protest too much about GE tubes.  Perhaps they are truly excellent tubes and he wants us to think they're really crappy tubes so he can buy them all up and hoard them only to reveal the fact that they are really excellent tubes and not really crappy tubes so then we all go looking for the really excellent and not really crappy GE tubes we will find that he owns all of the really excellent and not really crappy tubes and is selling them at a ridiculously high prices so he can buy a private island and retire while laughing at all of us that bought his really crappy GE tubes that we all thought were really excellent tubes.  

I'm onto your antics @bcowen.


----------



## buonassi

Having gone through the rounds again - I'm gravitating toward the WH halo getter (the one that accompanied the D getter I was initially after).  Turns out to be so good, in fact, it's the only tube I've purchased a second time.  Got me a verified NOS as backup.

I know, I'm in the minority here.... and I'll be the first to admit that if you like bass slam this tube won't quell your desire.  It has pretty linear bass, but not as prevalent or solid as the D getter.  I suspect that pairing it with the Elear has something to do with my liking it.  The Elear retains enough punch regardless.

stage, treble extension and resolution are why this tube just does it for me.  Very much like a foton with its stage - resolution a hair better (maybe, so close I can't tell) - bass a touch lighter and airier.  It's got a delicateness to it and a finesse that I just can't get enough of.  It goes well with a non-oversampling DAC that tends to be warmer in the first place.


----------



## IceAero

Hi!

So, I just ordered a NOS KR VT231 off ebay and I think that means I can officially join this ridiculous (ly awesome) thread.

My humble setup:


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 22, 2018)

A Lyr 3, Gumby, and the new v2 HE-560s?  Very nice, indeed!

Let me be the fist hypocrite to tell you that the KR VT-231 is an excellent tube and all you'll need.  All you'll need -- Yes.  All you'll want -- Not Likely.  Welcome aboard and welcome to your new addiction.


----------



## Ripper2860

buonassi said:


> Having gone through the rounds again - I'm gravitating toward the WH halo getter (the one that accompanied the D getter I was initially after).  Turns out to be so good, in fact, it's the only tube I've purchased a second time.  Got me a verified NOS as backup.
> 
> I know, I'm in the minority here.... and I'll be the first to admit that if you like bass slam this tube won't quell your desire.  It has pretty linear bass, but not as prevalent or solid as the D getter.  I suspect that pairing it with the Elear has something to do with my liking it.  The Elear retains enough punch regardless.
> 
> stage, treble extension and resolution are why this tube just does it for me.  Very much like a foton with its stage - resolution a hair better (maybe, so close I can't tell) - bass a touch lighter and airier.  It's got a delicateness to it and a finesse that I just can't get enough of.  It goes well with a non-oversampling DAC that tends to be warmer in the first place.



You're just not going to stop until I buy one, are you?


----------



## IceAero

Ripper2860 said:


> A Lyr 3, Gumby, and the new v2 HE-560s?  Very nice, indeed!
> 
> Let me be the fist hypocrite to tell you that the KR VT-231 is an excellent tube and all you'll need.  All you'll need -- Yes.  All you'll want -- Not Likely.  Welcome aboard and welcome to your new addiction.



Thank you! 

And I doubt I'll stop at one, but first I'm very intrigued to compare it to the stock TS tube.

Worse, I recently learned my father has 'literally thousands' of tubes tucked away somewhere that I'm welcome to sort through.  My grandfather was a tv and radio repairman in the 40s and 50s, and he apparently amassed quite a collection.  I don't know how many are likely to be 6SN7, but I may be running to this thread with some interesting 'What is this' questions.


----------



## earnmyturns

IceAero said:


> And I doubt I'll stop at one, but first I'm very intrigued to compare it to the stock TS tube.


What I wrote when I got my KR VT-231 (smoked glass, staggered plates) a few months ago: "It sounds more spacious and full-bodied than the stock new Tung Sol, which might correlate with dark, but overall it does not sound dark to me." I've been listening to the KR exclusively since then.


----------



## buonassi

Ripper2860 said:


> You're just not going to stop until I buy one, are you?


haha.  ok, I've said enough about it.  

but fair warning - the bass is subdued and light compared to other tubes - I'm being serious, not trying to dissuade folks from snatching them up.  I'm all for sharing a good thing - just be sure you're OK with the sound I described.

So my top four (cause that's a thing? )


halo get
foton
D get
northern electric


----------



## buonassi

IceAero said:


> Worse, I recently learned my father has 'literally thousands' of tubes tucked away somewhere that I'm welcome to sort through. My grandfather was a tv and radio repairman in the 40s and 50s, and he apparently amassed quite a collection. I don't know how many are likely to be 6SN7, but I may be running to this thread with some interesting 'What is this' questions.



@Ripper2860  will be your best friend in 5, 4, 3, 2.......  now you're tubeless, ta da!


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Welcome to the loony bin!  And since you're already showing the warning signs of future hoarding, I'll go ahead and get your welcome gift in the mail.


PURGE IT WITH FIRE!


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

IceAero said:


> My grandfather was a tv and radio repairman in the 40s and 50s, and he apparently amassed quite a collection.



I can't help it... 

In my best Spicoli Impression -  "My grandfather was a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tubes..."


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead (Aug 23, 2018)

On another note....  I did not go off the deep end.  I just went to a local tube dude.  He had walls and walls of beautifully displayed tubes - see last pic for just the lower half of one of 8 display cases.  If you squint closely enough the "red bottom RCA" is on the left on the 2nd shelf down.

I didn't know too much about what I was looking at (or for).  He had the aforementioned famous RCA "Red Bottom" and Ken Rad VT-231's, but I have no idea how to check them, and while the price was in line with expectations, I'm not quite ready to take that kind of leap.  So, I decided to stick with trying 4 "families".  I got a Sylvania, a Westinghouse (I think it has a D getter, but I have no idea if it's "the" D-Getter), a Ken Rad, and yes.... a GE.

The writing on most of them is so faded out, I have no idea how to check the provenance.  I'll just plug 'em in and go from there.  Starting with the unknown Ken Rad.






 
[Edited to try and fix pictures, but they're not displaying on my editing window - will try to repost or edit]
[2nd Edit - Dang... those are huge... sorry  I'll try to resize]
[3rd Edit - I am clearly not an expert... but I think I got it... inserted thumbnails]


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> Welcome to the loony bin!  And since you're already showing the warning signs of future hoarding, I'll go ahead and get your welcome gift in the mail.


Thank you for the kind welcome and help!  That's a lot of postage to Hong Kong, but I get to NC a fair amount to see family and friends...   I guess not aaaaalllllll Tarheel fans are terrible.  

Given previous habits with audio, guitars, and chasing "tone" along with headphones and near field monitors being totally new to me, I can see the rabbit hole / black hole expanding.  It's fun though, and way easier (and cheaper) to fiddle with sound.  Run out, buy some tubes... plug 'em up and go.  I love that I just need one.

Seriously, once again, thanks for the kind welcome, the help, and the laugh.  Truly a kind bunch here.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 23, 2018)

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> On another note....  I did not go off the deep end.  I just went to a local tube dude.  He had walls and walls of beautifully displayed tubes - see last pic for just the lower half of one of 8 display cases.  If you squint closely enough the "red bottom RCA" is on the left on the 2nd shelf down.
> 
> I didn't know too much about what I was looking at (or for).  He had the aforementioned famous RCA "Red Bottom" and Ken Rad VT-231's, but I have no idea how to check them, and while the price was in line with expectations, I'm not quite ready to take that kind of leap.  So, I decided to stick with trying 4 "families".  I got a Sylvania, a Westinghouse (I think it has a D getter, but I have no idea if it's "the" D-Getter), a Ken Rad, and yes.... a GE.
> 
> ...


I see a WH GTA D getter reliatron.  Score!

I wish I had a local guy!  Wait, never mind, I would be broke!


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Wes S said:


> I see a WH GTA D getter reliatron.  Score!
> 
> I wish I had a local guy!  Wait, never mind, I would be broke!



Well, to be completely fair... it seems I got exceptionally lucky.  I'd never heard of such a thing until two days ago, and I didn't even know the store existed until yesterday.   I just bought some tubes to play with.  So clearly having my first ever tube head-amp is giving me good vibes.  I jammed to a bit of Who's Next with the Ken Rad, and again, I have to say that this amp (and the MB DAC along with it) kick some serious a$$.


----------



## Wes S (Aug 23, 2018)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sperry-Rand-SPL-RCA-USA-6SN7GTB-6SN7GT-6SN7-black-plate-strong-pair-tubes/122732996074?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=cd31127d4c4840b490deff85847433f6&pid=100675&rk=9&rkt=15&sd=151643717148&itm=122732996074&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:00665ae9-a6d6-11e8-ba68-74dbd1805fa8|parentrq:66e8fb651650aadadf623795fffd5a81|iid:1

To All,

The tube on the right, is a WH D getter!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Guys, 

I'm sending my Lyr 3 to Dave Hansen to include in his review of the Monoprice Cavalli Platinum, thinking ill send one Bad Boy, Ken Rad VT-231, and Bill ”the Pusher Man’s”   WH D-Getters, any other recommendations?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

That should be an interesting review, Dave's a good reviewer.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

FLTWS said:


> That should be an interesting review, Dave's a good reviewer.



He is, I’ve always enjoyed his reviews, plus he’s a really good guy.

@bcowen, I’m a little gun shy on the Foton’s, since the commie b-turd took out my Clear and Lyr-3 ...


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

OK... Since you all have been so helpful, I'll let you laugh at the toob noob...

I freaked out last night thinking I had fried my amp... I was checking to make sure all the tubes were working properly (3 day return period) and swapping them out ever-so carefully.  
1)  Remove headphone cable
2)  Turn off power
3)  Remove power cord
4)  Swap tube... 
Reverse.  

I put in the Sylvania... silence... CRAP!    Put the Ken-Rad back in.... silence.... GUT sinking feeling!!!!   

Oh... it helps if you plug the headphones back in....  

On a more serious note... can tubes in anyone's experience affect sibilance?  If so, is it a property that can improve after a proper burn in?  I use Graceland as a rotational "test" album because I'm so familiar with it, and I love it.   The Ken-Rad and the Sylvania tubes make Diamonds on the solessssss of her shoesssssss and Homelesssssss almost unbearable. I haven't swapped in the mythical D getter or the GE yet for any real listening.  I hope to use some of the weekend for some careful listening to see if I can actually hear some of the differences between tubes and improvement after burn in.  I guess I'll need to take notes.. what fun is that..


----------



## Wildcatsare1

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> OK... Since you all have been so helpful, I'll let you laugh at the toob noob...
> 
> I freaked out last night thinking I had fried my amp... I was checking to make sure all the tubes were working properly (3 day return period) and swapping them out ever-so carefully.
> 1)  Remove headphone cable
> ...



Shhhh, don't tell anyone, but I've done the headphones not plugged in thing before as well.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Aug 23, 2018)

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> On a more serious note... can tubes in anyone's experience affect sibilance? If so, is it a property that can improve after a proper burn in?


Absolutely, and yes.  With that said, I've never heard a new/nos tube that has not burned in yet, which was bright or sibilant, become dark or rolled off in the treble once it burned in.   It usually calms down a bit, but it's not going to drastically change.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 23, 2018)

^^^ Ditto.  



bcowen said:


> Most all of @Ripper2860 's tubes I tested had really bad leakage which is why I had to throw them away. But he still managed to blow up his Lyr anyway....



Well, it would have helped if the attached note from @bcowen didn't say ...



> _Ripper,
> 
> I found leakage in this tube, but all should be OK if you take the following precautions.
> 
> ...











Well, I followed your advice and wore them.  The tube still blew my amp.  

I'll keep the remainder and use them for extended listening sessions, however!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 23, 2018)

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> OK... Since you all have been so helpful, I'll let you laugh at the toob noob...
> 
> I freaked out last night thinking I had fried my amp... I was checking to make sure all the tubes were working properly (3 day return period) and swapping them out ever-so carefully.
> 1)  Remove headphone cable
> ...



If the tubes are NOS, you'll definitely need to burn them in.  Harsh upper frequencies tend to smooth out as the tube is used more.  I would not pass judgement at less than 60 hours on each tube to ensure they've had a reasonable amount of time.  Of course, Foton's being Russian are a bit more stubborn and require 100 hours.


----------



## earnmyturns (Aug 23, 2018)

I know, this is silly  ... but it was recommended by a very reliable source. Still burning in, but it already shows a depth and instrument separation that even the Ken-Rad staggered plates VT-231 did not quite reach. Still too crisp in the upper register.


----------



## ProfFalkin

earnmyturns said:


> I know, this is silly  ... but it was recommended by a very reliable source. Still burning in, but it already shows a depth and instrument separation that even the Ken-Rad staggered ppates VT-231 did not quite reach. Still too crisp in the upper register.


Oh yeah, @atomicbob uses one.   Pricey, but supposedly very good.


----------



## earnmyturns

ProfFalkin said:


> Oh yeah, @atomicbob uses one.   Pricey, but supposedly very good.


Yep, I was quite curious after his comments on that setup. Listening to a very interesting modern classical orchestral recording






that shines with this tube, even with the still edgy upper register. Brass, woodwinds, and massed strings are all in their tonal and spatial places better than I hoped for with a headphone setup. Percussion hits you, too. The Holo Spring NOS DAC is no slouch here, either.


----------



## IceAero

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> I can't help it...
> 
> In my best Spicoli Impression -  "My grandfather was a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tubes..."



Ha!  Knowing my grandfather they are literally all junk and he should have tossed them 50 years ago...


earnmyturns said:


> I know, this is silly  ... but it was recommended by a very reliable source. Still burning in, but it already shows a depth and instrument separation that even the Ken-Rad staggered plates VT-231 did not quite reach. Still too crisp in the upper register.



And it's beautiful!  I was curious about the PSVane 6SN7-UK, I wonder how different/better this version is.


----------



## earnmyturns

IceAero said:


> And it's beautiful!  I was curious about the PSVane 6SN7-UK, I wonder how different/better this version is.


According to @atomicbob they are similar. But I couldn't find 6SN7-UK singles.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Thanks to all for the affirmations on sibilance / burn-in.  Patience is not one of MY virtues.  The Ken Rad is now on burn in duty.  I've learned? that it is a staggered plate with the same specs as VT-231, but not marked VT-231.  Either that or it's a really good fake in a box no one's ever seen.  My guess is that it's an authentic non military tube w/ a fake (ahem... reproduction) box.  I'll let it sit overnight with some sweet melodies to coax it into not making all my music sound like...



 Yes, I'm exaggerating, but it's annoying.  There may be other characteristics I'm missing simply because my brain can't get past the sssssssss and tingy tingy cymbals.


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## FLTWS (Aug 24, 2018)

IceAero said:


> ... I was curious about the PSVane 6SN7-UK, I wonder how different/better this version is.



My M/P of PSVane 6SN7-UK (low noise, GF Select), are scheduled for delivery this Monday per Canadian Post airmail tracking.


----------



## FLTWS

earnmyturns said:


> I know, this is silly  ... but it was recommended by a very reliable source. Still burning in, but it already shows a depth and instrument separation that even the Ken-Rad staggered plates VT-231 did not quite reach. Still too crisp in the upper register.



They do look interesting.


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## earnmyturns (Aug 24, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Oh yeah, @atomicbob uses one.   Pricey, but supposedly very good.


At 26 hours burn in, Psvane 6SN7-SE is getting scary good. Listening to solo cello, already magical tone, higher notes no longer harsh, and so much layering between the different sources in the instrument! BTW, this is a wonderful album of 20th-21st century music, if you think it is all dissonant and harsh, you are in for a lovely surprise.


----------



## IceAero (Aug 25, 2018)

Nice cello music!

I was just reading someone who claimed these psvane tubes need a longer-than-normal time to normalize (they said 300hrs, jeez).  So, keep us apprised on how this tube changes!

Also, in looking into these new Chinese tubes, I see people speaking favorably about the Shuguang CV181-Z and Psvane CV181-TII...

EDIT:  Ah, I see one mention of them here, where the Psvane UK was claimed to be better in the Lyr 3.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## IceAero

So it begins!


----------



## earnmyturns

IceAero said:


> So it begins!


Cool! Do you know how to interpret the codes on these? I see "F 5" on yours, mine has "N 4." Are those codes for manufacturing dates?


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860




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## earnmyturns

earnmyturns said:


> At 26 hours burn in, Psvane 6SN7-SE is getting scary good.


At 42 hours, playing some newly acquired Euro jazz. Kick drum really kicks, bass has both heft and subtlety. Trombone and trumpet, including breath effects: lots of detail, texture, density. Cymbals have well-defined leading edges, their multiple vibration modes surge and decay properly. Comparing with the Ken-Rad VT-231 -- already a very good tube -- upper bass and mids are more present and complex timbres are better delineated.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

earnmyturns said:


> Cool! Do you know how to interpret the codes on these? I see "F 5" on yours, mine has "N 4." Are those codes for manufacturing dates?


I haven't found too much on the codes, but it seems to be generally accepted that the 4 is 1944 and 5 is 1945.  I haven't found anything on the letter code and whether that's for a lot code, a calendar month or some other meaning.


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 25, 2018)

bcowen said:


> I don't get it. I must be too young.


Yeah, that's one possibility.  Not the most likely one, but if it makes you feel better, then we'll all just pretend that's it.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860

Release the Kraken -- I mean the Franken!!


----------



## ProfFalkin

I've been too busy listening to music.   The Ken Rad vt231 black glass is a close cousin to the WH-D, and I've enjoyed comparing the two.


----------



## earnmyturns

ProfFalkin said:


> I've been too busy listening to music.   The Ken Rad vt231 black glass is a close cousin to the WH-D, and I've enjoyed comparing the two.


Same here, enjoying my still new-ish Psvane 6SN7-SE. I probably should go back to my Ken Rad to firm up comparisons, but there's an special openness that I'm really enjoying in the Psvane.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 26, 2018)

I have 3 Frankies +1 Frankimposter.  Far from hoarding.

While BC may not gush, I will.  Consider the Frankie a 6SN7W Tall Bottle for 1/10th the price.  The W is the best tube in my stash and the Frankie may equal and even slightly surpass the W.  It is really that special.

While there are lots of 7N7s, the Frankie is rare and well worth the hunt.


----------



## buonassi

it never ends....


----------



## Ripper2860

Until you run out of $$ or they put you in the ground.


----------



## ProfFalkin

As long as they put me in the ground with my headphones...


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## ItsAllInMyHead (Aug 27, 2018)

bcowen said:


> @Ripper2860 , is it time to release the Franken?









And you find great tubes!


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> This is long (sorry), but skipping to the end won't do any good because I put all the important stuff in the middle.  In my never-ending quest to find the perfect tube for the Lyr, and even after realizing such a thing doesn't exist I started looking at 7N7's. Firstly because they're electrically identical to a 6SN7 (basically a 6SN7 with a different base), and secondly because they're cheap. Like me. I started with a pair of Tung-Sols -- $20 bucks for the pair delivered. After a day's worth of break-in, I liked them. Liked them quite a bit, actually. Strong bass, very dynamic, and a sparkly treble. Very nice tubes period, and really nice tubes for the money. But at the end of the day they were just really nice tubes, and not in any position to unseat a Bad Boy, WH D, or even my beloved Fotons. But I was intrigued, and bought a pair of CBS ($18 delivered) and then drained the bank account on a pair of RCA's ($28 for the pair). Honestly couldn't tell a lot of difference between them and the Tung-Sols. All of them nice, none of them groundbreaking. As I continued my research, it would seem that there were only two manufacturers of this tube type: Sylvania and National Union. There is so much conflicting info out there it's hard to tell who's right and who's not, but the dual-manufacturer status of these is prolific among the more reputable sources. After looking closely at these three different tubes, it became obvious why they sounded so similar: they're identical internally. Not sure if they were made by Sylvania or NU, but it's clear they were made by the same manufacturer. After more searching I ran across a number of different forum posts from all over that mentioned the tall bottle versions of this tube type sounded better than the short bottle ones. As the tubes I had were all short bottle, I ran across an Ebay ad for the tall bottle pictured below. And the rest is now history. Powerful bass, dynamic and punchy, a midrange that's *just* right, beautiful treble, the rhythmic drive of a Foton. But there are two things that are remarkable with this tube: imaging (or maybe soundstaging) that locates each performer or instrument in its own acoustic space. You can pick out the individual voice in a chorus and the 3rd violin from center in an orchestra. And you hear the space surrounding them. I haven't heard this space-reality thing with headphones before. Not even close. And then there's the tone. Holy friggin' crap. Tone. The depth of harmonics and the full fleshing out of every resonance and micro-detail in the note. If you're a rocker or metalhead and love the sound of an electric guitar or bass, you'll turn into one great big goosebump with this tube in the Lyr. I even listened to some jazz...and liked it. That's never happened before either. I rarely gush on a tube because a lot has to do with personal preference and system synergy, so I won't gush over this one. I'll just say that even after several reality checks swapping a Foton or WH D back in for comparisons that the Frankentube is now my personal reference and owns the #1 spot by a pretty wide margin.
> 
> Frankentube?  Well, had to name it.  Not all tall bottle 7N7's have this magic. What's notable is the shape of the top of the glass bulb -- it's 'squared off' like the top of Frankenstein's head (or was that Herman Munster)?  There are tall bottle versions that have the more rounded top shape, and they don't sound nearly as good to my ears. This is the Frankentube:
> 
> ...


Damn man!  You put all of us wanna be tube rollers to shame!  Nice find and thanks for the the info!


----------



## Currawong

The Lyr 3 is in for review so I'm joining in the fun. I liked the Emerson (Tung-Sol?) in there, but the regular GE that I have in there now is pretty good.  I have a Fat Boy, but it's in another amp at the moment. Funnily enough I was glancing at the local second-hand dealer and they had a single Sylvania chrome-top for $17! I remember paying $100 for a pair, so I nabbed it.  I expect it will give the usual excessively smooth sound they are known for. I have some 5692 tubes I might try as well, but they tend to be _too_ lively sounding.


----------



## cebuboy

Currawong said:


> The Lyr 3 is in for review so I'm joining in the fun. I liked the Emerson (Tung-Sol?) in there, but the regular GE that I have in there now is pretty good.  I have a Fat Boy, but it's in another amp at the moment. Funnily enough I was glancing at the local second-hand dealer and they had a single Sylvania chrome-top for $17! I remember paying $100 for a pair, so I nabbed it.  I expect it will give the usual excessively smooth sound they are known for. I have some 5692 tubes I might try as well, but they tend to be _too_ lively sounding.



How did you like it with the WE 396A/2C51?


----------



## Ripper2860

Currawong said:


> The Lyr 3 is in for review so I'm joining in the fun. I liked the Emerson (Tung-Sol?) in there, but the regular GE that I have in there now is pretty good.  I have a Fat Boy, but it's in another amp at the moment. Funnily enough I was glancing at the local second-hand dealer and they had a single Sylvania chrome-top for $17! I remember paying $100 for a pair, so I nabbed it.  I expect it will give the usual excessively smooth sound they are known for. I have some 5692 tubes I might try as well, but they tend to be _too_ lively sounding.



Looking forward to another of your excellent reviews!!


----------



## ilikepooters

Has anyone tried a 6N1P-EV with an adaptor?

Think i mentioned it earlier in the thread but i've just rolled one in again, straight after listening to the Westinghouse GTB short bottle D Getter.

They are very much on par, imaging slightly wider and deeper on 6N1P-EV, also bit more bass heft.


Really worth rolling considering how cheap they are.


Ones i'm using are Nevz (Novosibirsk, Pentagon logo) '67 vintage.


----------



## Wes S

Currawong said:


> The Lyr 3 is in for review so I'm joining in the fun. I liked the Emerson (Tung-Sol?) in there, but the regular GE that I have in there now is pretty good.  I have a Fat Boy, but it's in another amp at the moment. Funnily enough I was glancing at the local second-hand dealer and they had a single Sylvania chrome-top for $17! I remember paying $100 for a pair, so I nabbed it.  I expect it will give the usual excessively smooth sound they are known for. I have some 5692 tubes I might try as well, but they tend to be _too_ lively sounding.


Awesome!  Currawong joined the tube rolling team!

I really want to hear your thoughts, about that JW WE 396A, as well!  I have a bunch of them, and the adapter, but have been to scared to try it.


----------



## Currawong

cebuboy said:


> How did you like it with the WE 396A/2C51?



Good! Very open and clear. I get the feeling that it gives the Lyr 3 a bit of a "lighter", less punchy, but more spacious sound than the other tubes, which is a bit different to how I experienced it in other amps.


----------



## earnmyturns

Update on Psvane 6SN7-SE: I thought the Ken-Rad VT-231 (staggered plates) was the acme for small ensemble jazz, but now I'm finding the burned-in Psvane even better, from the deep solid bass to the delicate, shimmering cymbals, with piano and sax mids a bit more forward than with the Ken-Rad, good separation between instruments. Listening to "Blue Dream" by the Jamie Saft Quartet (recommended!), better sense of depth and presence than I was used to with this DAC and headphones (see sig for details).


----------



## Ripper2860

earnmyturns said:


> Listening to "Blue Dream" by the Jamie Saft Quartet (recommended!),



A very excellent recommendation!  


(Psvane added to my list of tubes to buy.)


----------



## FLTWS

earnmyturns said:


> Update on Psvane 6SN7-SE: I thought the Ken-Rad VT-231 (staggered plates) was the acme for small ensemble jazz, but now I'm finding the burned-in Psvane even better, from the deep solid bass to the delicate, shimmering cymbals, with piano and sax mids a bit more forward than with the Ken-Rad, good separation between instruments. Listening to "Blue Dream" by the Jamie Saft Quartet (recommended!), better sense of depth and presence than I was used to with this DAC and headphones (see sig for details).



I'll have 50 hours on my Psvane 6SN7 UK by this afternoon, might make today a Psvane day and forego the Yggy A/B comparisons for the day.


----------



## quimbo

This was posted in another forum

Department Of The Army Technical Manual - Basic Theory and Application of electron Tubes:

https://ia801000.us.archive.org/11/items/TM11-662/TM11-662.pdf


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## ItsAllInMyHead (Aug 30, 2018)

Y'all are terrible influences... Every Thursday cannot be new tube day.... or can it?  See below for new stuff I brought home after work.  I admit I'm having fun.



Spoiler: Why I'm stoooopid, but still learning - Long Version



Good news!  I have new tubes to play with.
Bad news!  The area where I have my Lyr3 is an EMI/RFI danger zone, maybe, kinda, sorta, I think, who knows....  More troubleshooting and reading to come.  I've never seen anything quite like it.

The first tube I tried was the 6F8G with the adapter.  Because it's KEWL.  I was excited.  Then hummmmmmmmmmmm.  Not the very slight amount I was describing the other day.  This was/is a disturbing level of audible hum at my perfect volume setting.  No way, I could deal with it.  I was distraught.  It had no hum when the volume was at 0.  Hummed most at 10 to 3 and decreased to no hum and started to hiss (normal) at highest volume.  Same on high and low gain, but with varied levels.  So, it sounded just fine on low gain at max volume...  Anyway, that's not so practical.  Nothing I did seemed to improve it.  I resigned myself to returning the tube.  I yanked it out and started putting in the other tubes.

All the tubes did the same thing to varying degrees with the PSVane and the Full Music being the least "hummy".  The RCA and Zenith were comparable to all the other standard short bottle tubes I had previously purchased (and the stock tube).  LISST - still no hum.  After checking to see that all tubes worked, I thought I'd put the 6F8G back in and make sure everything was fully seated etc. etc.  I WANTED it to work.  As I was gently rocking the tube and pressing the wire on the top to ensure good contact and seating, the hum changed amplitude.  I thought... OK grounding or seating/contact issue.  Nope... When my hand got near the tube, from the back side ONLY, the hum reduced.  If I cupped my full hand behind the top of the tube - NO HUM.  Hand in front of the tube hummmmm.  Hand behind - no hum.  So, I'm assuming RFI and/or EMI.  Also, I'm assuming that the 6F8G whether it's its size, something inherent to its design, and/or the wire from the adapter that make it more susceptible.  Now, I have to figure out the source and eliminate it or shield against it...  The hand trick also works with the other tubes.  Total silence and hum free.  Even the slight amount I was describing in previous posts - GONE with all tubes.  So, I was chasing power issues for days, when I think it's Schiit flying through the air and interfering with my precious tubes.



tl;dr version - I have a potential EMI / RFI issue I learned of when using the 6F8G with an adapter.  It seems some tubes may be more susceptible to interference.  I am learning, so any help or experience is appreciated.  I'm trying to find the source and/or shield properly and move things.  Good news is that if I get it right, all hum is gone.

See below for the new fun stuff...

Also happy to report that sibilance with the Ken-Rad did reduce to tolerable levels after ~20 hours burn-in, and all previously purchased tubes are just lovely.  Not sure why all the hate for the GE tube.  Maybe after they're all fully burnt in, I'll notice more of a difference, or the others will just beat it up at night and leave it for dead.


----------



## Zachik

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> tl;dr version - I have a potential EMI / RFI issue I learned of when using the 6F8G with an adapter. It seems some tubes may be more susceptible to interference. I am learning, so any help or experience is appreciated. I'm trying to find the source and/or shield properly and move things. Good news is that if I get it right, all hum is gone.


Never tried the Lyr3 with any adapters, but been playing with the Massdrop CTH and 6C8G tubes (with adapter). TONS of hum 
I wonder if RF / EMI is my root cause (no hum with stock 6922 tube on CTH)... I did try different wall outlets in different rooms - no change. Did you try different locations and AC outlets?
I am still debugging my hum issue on CTH, so no conclusion to share (yet).


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> Perhaps you should make a hat for the Lyr.


That is Awesome!  Thanks for the laugh.



bcowen said:


> Seriously, that's very strange. Do you have the Lyr sitting near any large electric motor or near a large transformer? A lamp with a fluorescent bulb?
> 
> RFI usually manifests itself as a whine/whistle, buzz, or high frequency squeal rather than a proximity-altered hum. Sounds more like an EMI issue, and if so there has to be something nearby generating that field. Or maybe something not nearby that's generating one hell of a field....



I found the culprit!  As I mentioned, I am learning... so if others laugh at my expense while others learn... then I'm cool with that.  I moved the Lyr around everywhere, thinking it was my laser printer or fluorescent bulbs or the wall-mount AC units etc. etc.  What always moves with it.... DUH!!!!

Takeaways - some tubes are in-fact more susceptible to EMI. I would have never learned that I had an EMI "issue" were it not for the fun with the 6F8G.  I thought the hum I was hearing was just inherent to the tubes and "normal".  It was tolerable with the other tubes, but not normal.  Another foot between the Lyr and the culprit... solved. 



Zachik said:


> Never tried the Lyr3 with any adapters, but been playing with the Massdrop CTH and 6C8G tubes (with adapter). TONS of hum
> I wonder if RF / EMI is my root cause (no hum with stock 6922 tube on CTH)... I did try different wall outlets in different rooms - no change. Did you try different locations and AC outlets?
> 
> I am still debugging my hum issue on CTH, so no conclusion to share (yet).



It may very well be EMI.  I hope you get it solved.  I was pulling my hair out.  I'll never forget to check for these things in the future though.



Spoiler: My Culprit



I chose a 115V Lyr 3 version b/c I'll be back in the US eventually and I have a ton of transformers.  Live and learn.





Total side note - Got my e-mail issue of Cary magazine last night... I do miss the Carolinas.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> I found the culprit! As I mentioned, I am learning... so if others laugh at my expense while others learn... then I'm cool with that. I moved the Lyr around everywhere, thinking it was my laser printer or fluorescent bulbs or the wall-mount AC units etc. etc. What always moves with it.... DUH!!!!


I got another 6C8G to 6922 adapter on the way from fellow Head-Fi-er who experiences no hum. If that won't resolve the issue - I will get another CTH and power adapter from Massdrop (CEE TEE) to try if one of them is the culprit. Will report back when I have news... I realize it is the Lyr3 tube rolling thread, but info could still be useful to Lyr3 tube rollers!


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## Currawong (Aug 31, 2018)

I was browsing the site of the local second-hand hi-fi stores -- they are full of old JBL horn-tweeter speakers and Luxkit amps, and I came across a listing for a Sylvania 6SN7GTA chrome-top. They are normally $50/pop, but this was $17!  I didn't hesitate to nab that, and it now has pride of place in the Lyr 3, where its slight smoothness, at least for me, nails it sonically.

Oh, btw, _never, ever "hot-swap" tubes. You WILL fry the amp or your headphones._ Power-off, unplug your headphones and wait a couple of minutes at least before swapping. Make absolutely sure you don't put the tube in the wrong way. You will destroy things.


----------



## Ripper2860

The Sylvania Chrome Dome is a wonderfully smooth tube in Lyr 3.  Very nice sound-stage, nicely balanced, and silky smooth mids. Truly a treat.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> _Sound_ advice.
> 
> And as an addendum, if you decide to play with different tube types via adapters always, _always _double-check that the adapter is wired correctly. I've purchased quite a few with no issues, but had one a few months back with the first triode's plate wired to one of the heater pins. Have no idea what that would do to the Lyr (or the tube), but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been happy and glad I didn't find out about it via smoke signals from the Lyr.


Very timely advice!  Since I have a 7N7-to-6SN7 adapter on its way (guess whose fault that is...) - how do I check it for being wired correctly?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 1, 2018)

Wussie.  Just throw it in there like I did!!  

BTW -- I did just throw it in given my experience with a tube saver from the same seller and after checking seller reviews.  No surprises -- worked like a champ.

To check it, you'll need a voltmeter and the 'TDSL Tube Data' Windows app.  Pull up the pinout specs for each tube type (launch twice and put side-by-side on your monitor) and using the continuity setting on the meter, make sure the correct input-side pins on the 7N7-side map to the correct output-side pins on the 6SN7 side.



Ex:
7n7 pin #1 (h) goes to 6SN7 pin 7 (h)
7n7 pin #2 (k) goes to 6SN7 pin 3 (k)
and so on ...

Letter designator to letter designator.  Watchout for the same letters with a " suffix.  They are treated as their own unique designator.  ex: 7n7 pin k" goes to 6sn7 pin k", etc.


----------



## earnmyturns

Zachik said:


> Very timely advice!  Since I have a 7N7-to-6SN7 adapter on its way (guess whose fault that is...) - how do I check it for being wired correctly?


Here's what I'd do if I were in your shoes. First, get clear pinout diagrams for 6SN7 and for 7N7. Then, using an multimeter, I'd check continuity between corresponding pins in the adapter. *Check my work, please*, but going from the 6SN7 (male) side to the 7N7 (female) side of the adapter, you should have 7 -> 1, 3 -> 2, 1 -> 4, 2 -> 3, 5 -> 6, 4 -> 5, 6 -> 7, 8 -> 8. *Again, don't just trust what I wrote here, check the diagrams I linked to for yourself, as I know well from my DYI days that distractedly exchanging left with right, in with out, or + with - does happen *


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Wussie.  Just throw it in there like I did!!
> 
> BTW -- I did just throw it in given my experience with a tube saver from the same seller and after checking seller reviews.  No surprises -- worked like a champ.
> 
> To check it, you'll need a voltmeter and the 'TDSL Tube Data' Windows app.  Pull up the pinout specs for each tube type (launch twice and put side-by-side on your monitor) and using the continuity setting on the meter, make sure the correct input-side pins on the 7N7-side map to the correct output-side pins on the 6SN7 side.


Thanks!  Since I bought it from same seller as you - I might just throw it in too!


----------



## Zachik

earnmyturns said:


> Here's what I'd do if I were in your shoes. First, get clear pinout diagrams for 6SN7 and for 7N7. Then, using an multimeter, I'd check continuity between corresponding pins in the adapter. *Check my work, please*, but going from the 6SN7 (male) side to the 7N7 (female) side of the adapter, you should have 7 -> 1, 3 -> 2, 1 -> 4, 2 -> 3, 5 -> 6, 4 -> 5, 6 -> 7, 8 -> 8. *Again, don't just trust what I wrote here, check the diagrams I linked to for yourself, as I know well from my DYI days that distractedly exchanging left with right, in with out, or + with - does happen *


I might... I do have a multimeter, and this sounds like a 5 minute effort. Thanks!


----------



## Ripper2860

Do so at your own risk.  See my post above for pin outs for both and the process for testing ...


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Do so at your own risk.  See my post above for pin outs for both and the process for testing ...


Obviously, if I skip the simple test - it is at my own risk! Would never blame others for my stupidity


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## Ripper2860

Yeah -- I played the odds and this time I won!!


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## earnmyturns

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah -- I played the odds and this time I won!!


I played the odds enough back in the day, with too many productions of magic smoke and curled up expensive components, to be in the measure 3 times before plugging in camp


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 1, 2018)

Credit where credit is due... 

I learned all I know about blowing up a Lyr 3 from @bcowen !!!


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## buonassi (Sep 1, 2018)

remember that when checking for continuity, you must also check for dis-continuity.  IE each pin must be mutually exclusive of the non-mapped sockets.  You could check for continuity and get a pass without knowing there is a cross solder in place to another pin that would sound for continuity as well.

Put it simply, check that the cold pins are cold and that only 1 hot pin maps to only 1 hot plug on the adapter.  Yeah, it takes a while longer, but I'd consider the cost if you do have a cross solder.

edit:  these voltmeters can be had for $10 on amazon prime and that includes the 2 day ship!


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## buonassi

dayum I love this thread guys - it just keeps going and not fizzling out.  It's comic relief at its best.  It's helpful and educational. But most importantly, it's the primary contributor to my "like" count.

 ..............................................

ok, full credit to @Ripper2860 who has about 50% more likes than posts! @bcowen get's honorable mention too!


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## buonassi

Just passing it along......For Sale here on HF: Sylvania vt-231 Mil Spec ($75) NOS - Brent Jesse sourced and tested


----------



## tafens

ilikepooters said:


> When bank manager allows, i'm gonna try and get hold of a fabled Swedish 33S30 tube.



Have you managed to get hold of any of these tubes? How do they sound?


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## earnmyturns

tafens said:


> Have you managed to get hold of any of these tubes? How do they sound?


Whoa, just checked what those are going for! I thought getting the Psvane 6SN7-SE was kind of splurgy/decadent, but I think I draw the line at a tube that is more expensive than the amp itself


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## ilikepooters

tafens said:


> Have you managed to get hold of any of these tubes? How do they sound?




Not yet, i'm pretty settled with the tubes i've got now, can't imagine anything else being much better than Westinghouse 6SN7GTB D getter, Raytheon 6SN7WGT and Nevz 6N1P.


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## Zachik

ilikepooters said:


> Not yet, i'm pretty settled with the tubes i've got now, *can't imagine anything else being much better* than Westinghouse 6SN7GTB D getter, Raytheon 6SN7WGT and Nevz 6N1P.


That's because you have not listened to @bcowen 's Frankentubes yet 
On that subject - I have been a bad boy... Found a stash of those, and bought them all... 
Assuming they prove to be the real Frankentubes - I might be willing to sell 1 or 2 of them. Preferably to people who do not own any, yet...  @Ripper2860 - just making sure you got money left for experimenting with other tubes


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 3, 2018)

@Zachik  -- You sir, are no longer my friend.  I will not abide another 7N7 FrankenHoarder.


----------



## seanheis

Has anyone tried the Lisst tubes? What is the point of solid state tubes?


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 3, 2018)

LISST tubes exist for one reason.  They exist so that when @bcowen completes his diabolical plan to purchase the world's entire supply of dual triode octal tubes, we Schiit owners will have the ability to continue enjoying our fine audio gear, although at a reduced enjoyment level, until such a time as we find him, capture him, and make his tube stock available to the masses, once more.  

OK -- on a serious note:  I've not seen any comparison between a good tube and LISST that stated LISST sounded as good or better.  I can only assume they exist for convenience and possibly as a interim solution should a tube fail and a backup tube not be at the ready.  I guess some folks that like a SS sound may find them a highly suitable alternative, but then why would they not just get a good SS amp -- like Jot?


----------



## seanheis

bcowen said:


> Haven't tried them myself. I'm of the mind that a 'solid state tube' is an oxymoron.


Haha, touche! I guess these aren't technically tubes....they made me wonder about my RCA 6SJ7's for a minute!


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## Zachik

bcowen said:


> A stash?  A STASH?!? Oooohhh....I'm jealous. Pics?  Or are you still waiting on arrival?


Will be shipped to me tomorrow morning... VERY reputable seller got your list of attributes and guarantee this is it. Finger crossed...


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> @Zachik  -- You sir, are no longer my friend.  I will not abide another 7N7 FrankenHoarder.


Of course I am your friend!
I am saving you from spending all your tube budget on a single type... you got to spread your horizons buddy


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> OK -- on a serious note: I've not seen any comparison between a good tube and LISST that stated LISST sounded as good or better. I can only assume they exist for convenience and possibly as a interim solution should a tube fail and a backup tube not be at the ready. I guess some folks that like a SS sound may find them a highly suitable alternative, but then why would they not just get a good SS amp -- like Jot?


I believe I read somewhere Schiit commenting that those LISST tubes were made to add flexibility. Basically, market those amps as 2-in-1 (Tube Hybrid, and Solid State) by swapping tubes...


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Quit being so dramatic. I'll leave all the tubes manufactured by GE for you.  GE _labeled_ tubes made by others (actually, any others) are not subject to this exception.



Well, I stand corrected.   Obviously your generosity knows no bounds.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 3, 2018)

Zachik said:


> Of course I am your friend!
> I am saving you from spending all your tube budget on a single type... you got to spread your horizons buddy



Nah. Nah. Nah. I can't hear you. Nah Nah Nah. Traitor.  Nah. Nah. Hoarder. Nah. Nah. Nah …


OK.  Kidding aside.  I'm glad you were able to find a stash, as they are pretty hard to find.  A lot of folks jump immediately on the tall bottle, flat-top, 1/2 covered chrome flashed, gray t-plate tubes with racetrack lower mica, but in their excitement forget to check for the completely round spikey top mica.  Congrats!!  You, sir should buy a lotto ticket as you are definitely on a roll!!  











Dammit!!!    I can't do it!  There is no round top spikey mica.  Call me dramatic.  Call me a hoarder. You can call me many things, but much to my chagrin, liar is not one of them.  Good luck with your 'double secret' stash of hopefully true Frankentubes, you dastardly hoarder


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 3, 2018)

^^^


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## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> until such a time as we find him, capture him, and make his tube stock available to the masses, once more


I call dibs on waterboarding him.


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## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, I stand corrected.   Obviously your generosity knows no bounds.


Wait... No waterboarding then?


*Sigh*


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 3, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Wait... No waterboarding then?
> 
> 
> *Sigh*



I have a cell in Guantanamo with his name on it.  And you're 1st on the visitors list.


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## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> I have a cell in Guantanamo with his name on it.


Good.  Can't go easy on hoarders, ya know.


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## Ripper2860




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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 3, 2018)

bcowen said:


> I've reserved the GE barrage for @Ripper2860, but the next assailant gets the JAN Philips ECG's.



A clear violation of the Geneva Convention rules!!!


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## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> A clear violation of the Geneva Convention rules!!!


Agreed.  Tubes are much larger than .50 Cal.   A clear violation.

I'll go get a binding resolution from the U.N. and impose sanctions.

Ripper, start drafting the declaration of war.


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## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Call me dramatic. Call me a hoarder. You can call me many things, but much to my chagrin, liar is not one of them. Good luck with your 'double secret' stash of hopefully true Frankentubes, you dastardly hoarder


Dramatic!
Hoarder!
There!! I've said it  

Joking aside, first - it is to be seen whether or not those are true Frankentubes. Second, it is not a huge stash... only 7 of them........ 
...and I am sharing!! If true Frankentubes - I will sell a couple to others since I know how hard it is to find them


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## Ripper2860

Zachik said:


> If true Frankentubes - I will sell a couple to others since I know how hard it is to find them



If they are true Frankentubes, you may wish you never said you'd sell a couple after hearing them.


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## ProfFalkin

Zachik said:


> Dramatic!
> Hoarder!
> There!! I've said it
> 
> ...


I'd buy one from you.


----------



## Zachik

ProfFalkin said:


> I'd buy one from you.


If they are truly Frankentubes - I will sell you one.
Do you have 7N7 to 6SN7 adapter?  Mine is on its way from China... for a week now... probably at least another week until it arrives


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## ProfFalkin (Sep 3, 2018)

I'll find one.   Either that or I'll make one.

Thanks!   Let us know.  It's good of you to share!


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## ProfFalkin (Sep 4, 2018)

Ok, so...  Tube vendors have a reputation for being liars.  Wether out of ignorance, lack of time to research, a don't give a Schiit attitude, or what have you... you have to be really careful with who you buy from.

The "nos Westinghouse 6SN7gtb" tube I purchased was not NOS.   Furthermore, there is a severe hiss and channel imbalance in the tube.   Let's examine why I think it's not NOS.

1)  Wear and tear evident.    So, looking back at the pictures from the sale, the seller never provided a picture of the pins.  This would be why:




If the tube had been sitting in a box for the last 50 years, unused and new in box, then how did the gunk get on there?  Further, how did it get worn off around the outside of the base?

2)  Just because a vendor says it was tested, it doesn't mean it really means NOS.   The channel imbalance is almost assuredly due to heavy use of the tube, and a worn out triode section.

3)  Get pics of all sides of the tube, or a nasty surprise might be awaiting you.  For example, this looks good, right?



What about now...
 

The mica is splitting, there is gunk on the base, the pins aren't clean, etc.    I blame myself.  The asking price was cheap, with free shipping, and from someone I never purchased from before.  Only 2 pictures were provided of the tube for the sale.   I should have asked for more.

So... anyway, here are the visual differences between the WH-D tall and short bottle tubes:


The tall bottle has copper grid posts, as does the short bottle.   The tall bottle has fewer spikey thingies on the mica than the short bottle, but that's not going to change the sound any IMO.   The plate structure and wiring below the bottom micah both appear to be identical.   In short, other than different mica, they seem identical.  (Pics of the internals on the short bottle were hard to get, and ended up being crap, so I didn't attach them.)



The short bottle has a stop sign label on top.


The tall bottle has dots and the "6SN7GTB" in one line.


So... all in all, I have no one to blame but myself.   I should have been more diligent in my purchase.  Thank goodness for buyer assurances from sites like e-bay.   I think I can clearly demonstrate this is not a "New / Old Stock" tube as it is clearly not new, but it is old... as in, about ready to give up the ghost.

HOW DOES IT SOUND?!   OMG, almost forgot.    I listened to this "new" short bottle WH-D for about an hour, which is about all the time I think it will ever spend in my amp.   Tonally, it is identical to my tall bottle WH-D which I love dearly.  As for staging, detail retrieval, micro/macro dynamics, and all the rest... with the hiss and channel imbalance, I'm not willing to say.   It's probably identical, but who knows.

So... It appears that tall and short bottles matter not.   As long as it has the staggered black plates with copper grid posts and the top D getter, you're probably going to get exactly what the rest of us have clearly identified as a very strong contender for the best tube for the Lyr 3.

Enjoy.

(No more edits.  Post is FIN)


----------



## Ripper2860

I can hardly wait ...


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I was so hoping for something to help identify scale.  Something like a finger, perhaps.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> OMG!!!!!  That thing had to have taken a hard slam somewhere to break the mica like that.  And I can't even believe the guy put in his tester with all that crud on it. OTOH, he lied about it being NOS so it's probable he lied about it being tested and that tube never got even close to a tester.
> 
> Sorry for the misfortune, but thanks for sharing the details and pics.


I didn't pay much for it, so I'm not overly worried.  It will work itself out.

And I'll agree with you there, I don't think it ever touched a tester.  I was very hesitant to even put it into my amp.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

i found the short bottle GTB to be a tad more pleasing than the medium bottle, but never had a tall bottle.

maybe the short and tall are best and the medium bottle less so.

Also the medium bottles i had were GTA and the standard GT, aren't GTB's longer hours? maybe a different recipe in making the GTB.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Zachik said:


> That's because you have not listened to @bcowen 's Frankentubes yet
> On that subject - I have been a bad boy... Found a stash of those, and bought them all...
> Assuming they prove to be the real Frankentubes - I might be willing to sell 1 or 2 of them. Preferably to people who do not own any, yet...  @Ripper2860 - just making sure you got money left for experimenting with other tubes





bcowen said:


> A stash?  A STASH?!? Oooohhh....I'm jealous. Pics?  Or are you still waiting on arrival?





Ripper2860 said:


> @Zachik  -- You sir, are no longer my friend.  I will not abide another 7N7 FrankenHoarder.


Would you mind posting a photo of your ‘stash?


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 4, 2018)

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Would you mind posting a photo of your ‘stash?



I asked @Zachik the same question via PM and this is what he sent me!!


----------



## Zachik

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Would you mind posting a photo of your ‘stash?


I will as soon as I receive it... Supposed to be mailed out today by seller.



Ripper2860 said:


> I asked @Zachik the same question via PM and this is what he sent me!!


LMAO 
Actually, legal here in California...


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## ProfFalkin (Sep 4, 2018)

Pretty cheap for these KR VT231 BG tubes.   Thought I'd share in case anyone was keeping an eye out for a pair.   Shipping might be interesting though.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 4, 2018)

What?  Me?  I don't know what you're talking abou!  It's not even my stash -  I was just holding it for him!


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> What?  Me?  I don't know what you're talking abou!  It's not even my stash -  I was just holding it for him!


Oh. In that case - please send it back!!
My temporary mailing address for the next 5 years is:
San Quentin State Prison
Addicted inmates cell block
San Quentin, CA 94964


----------



## seanheis

Zachik said:


> I will as soon as I receive it... Supposed to be mailed out today by seller.
> 
> share it or risk being reported


----------



## Zachik

@bcowen and @Ripper2860 - quick question regarding the 7N7 to 6SN7 adapter (that is still on its way from China...):
How easy is it to remove it? Do you plug it directly to the Lyr 3 or do you put a socket save in between?
I am worried it is flush with the top of the case (or even lower than the case), with little to no gap around it, and I will have nothing to hold to when I want to roll in a 6SN7 tube... (supporting photos to illustrate would be awesome)


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Zachik said:


> I will as soon as I receive it... Supposed to be mailed out today by seller.
> 
> 
> LMAO
> Actually, legal here in California...


+1 for everybody! Tubes? TijuannaTea-leaves


Zachik said:


> I will as soon as I receive it... Supposed to be mailed out today by seller.
> 
> _I was half expecting some wag to email an image of her/his moustache (‘stash). This image was much better.
> Vacuum tubes, people. I was curious to see a box of valves (?) that are older than me (pre1970).
> I like this newsgroup/forum. Oddballs.... _


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 5, 2018)

Remember this when you're beating yourself up becuase you think you might be a hoarder.  It could always be worse...

You could be a SUPER-HOARDER!!!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860

I don't think so.  A collector owns 1 or 2 of the each unique item.  A SUPER-HOARDER has 20+ of each single item.  You sir, are a SUPER-HOARDER!!  

But don't fret, you can still achieve MEGA-SUPER-HOARDER status.  All you need to do is fill a mid-sized, climate controlled, storage unit with tubes!!  Looks to me you are well on your way!!!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## iamjaymo

I posted one of those glorious sounding Westinghouse tubes for sale in the Accessories section. Let me know if you are interested...


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> Just to stir the pot:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Does that make you two the Head(Fi) MFers In Charge?


----------



## ScubaMan2017

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> Does that make you two the Head(Fi) MFers In Charge?



 
_Source: https://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-youre-in-charge.png ; Uploaded 0934 EST ; Source: I have no idea. Thursday, September 6, 2018_.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/wes...l&utm_source=watched_forum_thread_messagetext

Possible D getter for sale? Can't tell for sure.


----------



## Wes S

buonassi said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/wes...l&utm_source=watched_forum_thread_messagetext
> 
> Possible D getter for sale? Can't tell for sure.


It is.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> 4) It's not even a 7N7


So what is it? (knowing your answer might be costly to my poor poor wallet)


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> If it's a rock star and blows Frankentube out of the water I'm going to hoard all the available supply first.


OMG - after *I* have already scooped all the Frankentubes on the interwebs, you come back with a potentially better tube?!  *Curses*


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> That's what you get for being a hoarder.
> 
> Of course, the mystery tube may blow chunks....


My stash of Frankentubes (assuming legit Frankentubes) would arrive within a day or two. Still waiting for the 7N7 to 6SN6 adapter from China..... won't be even able to test them.... sigh......


----------



## ProfFalkin

Zachik said:


> My stash of Frankentubes (assuming legit Frankentubes) would arrive within a day or two. Still waiting for the 7N7 to 6SN6 adapter from China..... won't be even able to test them.... sigh......


Until the adapters arrive, you can take many very large high quality photographs and post them here for our viewing pleasure.   Please include a finger for scale.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Zachik said:


> Never tried the Lyr3 with any adapters, but been playing with the Massdrop CTH and 6C8G tubes (with adapter). TONS of hum
> I wonder if RF / EMI is my root cause (no hum with stock 6922 tube on CTH)... I did try different wall outlets in different rooms - no change. Did you try different locations and AC outlets?
> I am still debugging my hum issue on CTH, so no conclusion to share (yet).



Just curious.  Did you get your hum issues solved / root cause figured out?  Mine was/is 100% physical proximity to my step-down transformer.  I moved the transformer, and poof... all hum is gone.  I did learn that while also being musically beautiful, my 6F8G is now my go-to tube for making all EMI issues immediately apparent.  I would have never have understood or addressed the issue if it weren't for putting it in.  Wild speculation, but I'm guessing the wire from the adapter picks up the EMI more readily.  Until I get more tubes... I won't know for sure 

More to come on tube experiences.  I want to share some opinions, but I am noticing that my notes / impressions are changing for some tubes over time.  It's either true burn-in or I'm just not consistent, whether its confirmation bias or not - I dunno.  With that said, I do find myself reaching for the PS Vane.... 

I really want my wife to swap tubes for me, and not tell me which one she's put in.... she won't get near that idea.   In all fairness, I haven't put in a tube yet, that I didn't enjoy (with the exception of some sibilance initially with some tubes).   I'm just enjoying the music.   I listen right through the burn in.


----------



## Zachik

ProfFalkin said:


> Until the adapters arrive, you can take many very large high quality photographs and post them here for our viewing pleasure.   Please include a finger for scale.


Haha. Will do Prof.


----------



## buonassi

ProfFalkin said:


> Please include a finger for scale.



really its we who should be giving him the finger....


----------



## Zachik

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> Just curious.  Did you get your hum issues solved / root cause figured out?  Mine was/is 100% physical proximity to my step-down transformer.  I moved the transformer, and poof... all hum is gone.  I did learn that while also being musically beautiful, my 6F8G is now my go-to tube for making all EMI issues immediately apparent.  I would have never have understood or addressed the issue if it weren't for putting it in.  Wild speculation, but I'm guessing the wire from the adapter picks up the EMI more readily.  Until I get more tubes... I won't know for sure
> 
> More to come on tube experiences.  I want to share some opinions, but I am noticing that my notes / impressions are changing for some tubes over time.  It's either true burn-in or I'm just not consistent, whether its confirmation bias or not - I dunno.  With that said, I do find myself reaching for the PS Vane....
> 
> I really want my wife to swap tubes for me, and not tell me which one she's put in.... she won't get near that idea.   In all fairness, I haven't put in a tube yet, that I didn't enjoy (with the exception of some sibilance initially with some tubes).   I'm just enjoying the music.   I listen right through the burn in.


Not resolved yet 
I am getting another amp (and power adapter) from Massdrop, so will be able to test another amp... An important piece of information: I was testing with a sensitive headphone (Campfire Cascade). With less sensitive AEON Flow Closed - much quieter / less noticeable hum. With hardest to drive (from my collection) HD600 - no audible hum. I am wondering whether hum is not MY problem but the combination of 6C8G tubes and CTH amp, but everyone else using less sensitive headphones, so they do not hear it?!

Anyhow, let's move this off-topic conversation to the CTH thread. Last thing we want is for the mods, or worse @bcowen / @Ripper2860 slap us on the wrist...


----------



## buonassi

ok, serious question.  and i was totally kidding @Zachik -  When tubes start to "go bad" do they slowly start to lose SQ?  Like really slowly to where it would take days to even notice it?  Then like a week and a half later you're finally like "something is off in my chain".    OR.  is is more like a rapid decline or a channel gives out, something quick an very noticeable?


----------



## Zachik

buonassi said:


> ok, serious question.  and i was totally kidding @Zachik -  When tubes start to "go bad" do they slowly start to lose SQ?  Like really slowly to where it would take days to even notice it?  Then like a week and a half later you're finally like "something is off in my chain".    OR.  is is more like a rapid decline or a channel gives out, something quick an very noticeable?


I am relatively new to tubes, so honestly do not know the answer.
Sounds like @bcowen has been doing tubes for decades... he should know!


----------



## FLTWS

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> ...
> More to come on tube experiences.  I want to share some opinions, but I am noticing that my notes / impressions are changing for some tubes over time.  It's either true burn-in or I'm just not consistent, whether its confirmation bias or not - I dunno.  With that said, I do find myself reaching for the PS Vane....



This can / will happen with all parts of one's audio chain over time. I think it's more a familiarization process than burn in and that takes a lot more than a few hundred hours listening time. Otherwise we'd all buy one of everything needed to listen and only replace any given part as it fails and needs to be replaced. That's the definition of an anti-audiophile.

Audiophiles never stop questing for the unobtainable.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> There are two different situations here: "gone bad" and "going bad."  The first would be more of a failure type thing which can happen in several ways: an air leak which has caused a loss of vacuum (evidenced by the silver getter flashing turning a powdery white or disappearing altogether), or electrical leakage developing between the tube's elements causing current to flow where it shouldn't (precursor to a short), the filament (heater) wire breaking from repeated heating/cooling (no orange glow), the tube is just worn out (see below), etc.  These types of failures are not subtle or questionable -- they result either in unmistakable sonic ugliness or no sound output at all.
> 
> The "going bad" part starts as soon as you first plug the tube in, and the tube will continue to wear as it's used. This is extremely oversimplified, but in a small octal tube like the 6SN7 the cathode is coated with an oxide. When the cathode is heated, electrons boil off of this oxide. The anode (plate) has a more positive charge than the cathode and it attracts these 'boiled off' (emitted) electrons and an electrical current is produced in the process (amplification). With usage, the oxide coating will degrade and diminish and fewer and fewer electrons will be emitted. At some point there are not enough electrons emitted and flowing to allow the tube to function properly, and that will usually manifest itself first in reduced output volume, then loud hum or static-type sounds until the tube quits functioning altogether (ie: no sound).  Think of a tube like a car tire.  A tire is only 'new' when it's first mounted, and the wearing out process starts as soon as you start driving on it. With a tire the wear bars tell you when it must be replaced, but the performance of the tire gradually diminishes before you ever get to those wear bars. Same with a tube minus the wear bars: the performance will diminish before you ever get to that hum/static/non-operable condition. This is not something that happens in a few hours, weeks, or even months. A new 6SN7 tube that's operated within its design parameters should perform well for 1500 hours at minimum (and probably many more) before any noticeable sonic degradation is evident.  Although not 6SN7's, the output tubes I use in my big rig amp have well over 5k hours on them and still show no signs of any sonic decline.
> 
> The most obvious sonic clues that a tube is past its prime are a loss of dynamics and softer bass that is losing impact. I have a tester, so if the system starts to sound 'off' to me and I suspect it's tube related, I'll run a test on the tube(s). Without a tester and you suspect the tube has entered its twilight years probably the best way to check is to plug in a new one (of the same lineage) and see if you hear any difference.  If you can't detect any difference put the new tube back in the box and continue with the old one. This is why people like @Ripper2860 hoard tubes...so they always have that extra one to test.


Great post!  Thanks man


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 7, 2018)

Good info.  That, folks is why if I find a tube I like, I purchase multiple units.  I figure I'll get about 1 to 1-1/2 years out of a tube, if I'm fortunate.  Given that I plan to live another 50 years, that means I must secure additional stock (aka hoard) the ones I really like to ensure that I can continue enjoying the sultry sounds to which I I have grown accustomed.  Given the increasing scarcity of some of these tubes and the continued rise in prices, it just makes sense to address this now as opposed to later.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Good info.  That, folks is why if I find a tube I like, I purchase multiple units.  I figure I'll get about 1 to 1-1/2 years out of a tube, if I'm fortunate.  Given that I plan to live another 50 years, that means I must secure additional stock (aka hoard) the ones I really like to ensure that I can continue enjoying the sultry sounds to which I I have grown accustom.  Given the increasing scarcity of some of these tubes and the continued rise in prices, it just makes sense to address this now as opposed to later.


I hope to get more than 1.5 years out my tubes!    More like 3 or 4  years, I would think?  Do you leave your amp on all the time?


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah -- I'm being extremely conservative.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Good info.  That, folks is why if I find a tube I like, I purchase multiple units.  I figure I'll get about 1 to 1-1/2 years out of a tube, if I'm fortunate.  Given that I plan to live another 50 years, that means I must secure additional stock (aka hoard) the ones I really like to ensure that I can continue enjoying the sultry sounds to which I I have grown accustomed.  Given the increasing scarcity of some of these tubes and the continued rise in prices, it just makes sense to address this now as opposed to later.


The only flaw in your plan, IMHO, is that in 2-3 years you (and many of us) would probably upgrade to Lyr 4... Still to be seen whether or not Schiit re-use same architecture / 6SN7 tubes or not. Probably they would, if I had to guess based on past behavior, but maybe Lyr 5 in 5-6 years use different tubes.


----------



## Zachik

Wes S said:


> I hope to get more than 1.5 years out my tubes!    More like 3 or 4  years, I would think?  Do you leave your amp on all the time?


Very good point. I get 2-3 hours on a good day... some days - I have zero time for my music gear


----------



## ProfFalkin

Wes S said:


> I hope to get more than 1.5 years out my tubes!    More like 3 or 4  years, I would think?  Do you leave your amp on all the time?


I always turn my amp off when I'm not using it.  I always keep my DAC on 24/7.

I did the math a while ago.   Assuming 5,000 hours per tube, at 8 hours a day (my work setup) you get about 625 days of use.   Considering it's not run on weekends, you're looking at about 3 years per tube.   If you listen less than 8 hours a day, then obviously the tube is going to last a lot longer.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 7, 2018)

I typically listen about 4 hours each weekday and up to 12 hours over the course of the weekend.  I listen A LOT!!   And I keep Lyr 3 on all weekend, as I suspect on/off/on/off/on/off is way worse for a tube than just leaving it on for the weekend.

As you can tell, I'm really into music (and into drowning out the kids and dogs).


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> I typically listen about 4 hours each weekday and up to 12 hours over the course of the weekend.  I listen A LOT!!
> 
> As you can tell, I'm really into music (and into drowning out the kids and dogs).


Right there with ya, minus the kids and dogs.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> I always turn my amp off when I'm not using it.  I always keep my DAC on 24/7.
> 
> I did the math a while ago.   Assuming 5,000 hours per tube, at 8 hours a day (my work setup) you get about 625 days of use.   Considering it's not run on weekends, you're looking at about 3 years per tube.   If you listen less than 8 hours a day, then obviously the tube is going to last a lot longer.


That's more like what I was thinking. . .


----------



## Wes S

Zachik said:


> The only flaw in your plan, IMHO, is that in 2-3 years you (and many of us) would probably upgrade to Lyr 4... Still to be seen whether or not Schiit re-use same architecture / 6SN7 tubes or not. Probably they would, if I had to guess based on past behavior, but maybe Lyr 5 in 5-6 years use different tubes.


Possibility, but this Lyr 3 is really, really good, so I could see myself keeping it and using it for a long, long time.


----------



## Ripper2860

Lyr 3 will always be in my mix.  Even if I had a Lyr 4 or 5, Lyr 3 is far too good to sell or discard.


----------



## FLTWS

I agree with both of you, and I would keep it even if Schiit makes a balanced version with Freya-like features available which would make it a day of release order for me.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 7, 2018)

Wes S said:


> Possibility, but this Lyr 3 is really, really good, so I could see myself keeping it and using it for a long, long time.


I learned my lesson the hard way.   When you find a gem of audio equipment, hang on to it.  I sold my ZMF Vibro Mk2, and want them back.  Sure, the Ori and Blackwoods are still available, but there was just something special on how the Vibro was tuned.  It was so good with anything electric guitar.  Tough luck getting another pair too, as @zach915m doesn't make that series any more and Fostex has moved on from the T40RP driver AFAIK.   

I doubt I will ever sell my Eddy Current Black Widow 2, my ZMF Eikons, or the Lyr 3.     I can't think of a better sounding all-in-one desktop amp/dac, let alone one that is this flexible in application and use.

Also, I just took delivery of a cocobolo ZMF Auteur (preowned), and thinking this might be added to the list of Never-Sell items.   So far it's amazing with the '50s RFHP Foton, Lyr 3, and Auteur.  I'm not kidding, there is a very special synergy here.

I can't wait to get it home and into my Gumby A2 / BW2 setup!   I should probably do a shootout between the Lyr 3 and BW2.   That would be an interesting comparison.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> I learned my lesson the hard way.   When you find a gem of audio equipment, hang on to it.  I sold my ZMF Vibro Mk2, and want them back.  Sure, the Ori and Blackwoods are still available, but there was just something special on how the Vibro was tuned.  It was so good with anything electric guitar.  Tough luck getting another pair too, as @zach915m doesn't make that series any more and Fostex has moved on from the T40RP driver AFAIK.
> 
> I doubt I will ever sell my Eddy Current Black Widow 2, my ZMF Eikons, or the Lyr 3.     I can't think of a better sounding all-in-one desktop amp/dac, let alone one that is this flexible in application and use.
> 
> ...


Good advice!  I just bought me a pair of Blackwood and they are very good!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

There is absolutely no rationale for buying a $10,000 tube other than "haha, bitches, I'm rich".   LOL


----------



## FLTWS

Dam, we're all LYR groupies!


----------



## Ripper2860

ProfFalkin said:


> There is absolutely no rationale for buying a $10,000 tube other than "haha, bitches, I'm rich". LOL



Yeah, but these are only $5,000 a tube, so "HaHa bitches, I'm upper middle-class!!!"


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah, but these are only $5,000 a tube, so "HaHa bitches, I'm upper middle-class!!!"


Don't forget... you need a backup tube!    Back to $10,000 we go.  =P

The most expensive tube I've purchased for the Lyr 3 is the one I liked the least.   

Here's one you rarely see for less than $90 per tube.  I've never been a huge fan of the 5692 line, although they're supposed to be amazingly awesome.   Thought I'd share the link though, given the price.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Also, might be worth sending the seller a message on this one.    It could be a D getter Westinghouse.   If it is, then $9 for a WH-D is a steal.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 7, 2018)

@bcowen was kind enough to let me try-before-I-buy that same CBS/Hytron brown-base 5692.  Not a good pairing with Lyr 3 at all.  It was rather blah with nothing to really hate, but nothing to really like either.  A 'meh' pairing, IMHO.

It's headed back to the consummate tube collector.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> Also, might be worth sending the seller a message on this one.    It could be a D getter Westinghouse.   If it is, then $9 for a WH-D is a steal.


Been watching that one for a while. . .


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen was kind enough to let me try-before-I-buy that same CBS/Hytron brown-base 5692.  Not a good pairing with Lyr 3 at all.  It was rather blah with nothing to really hate, but nothing to really like either.  A 'meh' pairing, IMHO.
> 
> It's headed back to the consummate tube collector.


Good to know, and yeah... I'm not surprised.   Even the red base 5692's I bought for my Elise were very bleh.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 7, 2018)

I suspected as much.  

When you receive it, just disregard the innocuous white powder cloud emanating from the box when you open it.  I'm sure you're up to date on all your immunizations.


----------



## chef8489

Listening to my WH D getter. with my LCD2c. Will have to compare it to my Ken-Rad vt-231 today. I will try and get some night shots later tonight.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> First MF'er is here!! (same maker as previous photo, different label)  Unfortunately the CBI has developed a problem...left channel tube not lighting up, so I gotta figure out what's going on with that before I can get MF'er cooking. Will post impressions as soon as I can get ~50 hours on it and listen.
> 
> 
> 
> MF'er snuggling with big brother Frankentube:


Cool looking tubes!


----------



## ScubaMan2017

FLTWS said:


> Dam, we're all LYR groupies!


....don’t forget us Lyr lurkers...


----------



## Ripper2860

chef8489 said:


> Listening to my WH D getter. with my LCD2c. Will have to compare it to my Ken-Rad vt-231 today. I will try and get some night shots later tonight.



Cool!  You finally have your coveted WH D getter!!  Looking forward to your thoughts.  I hope it lives up you your expectations.


----------



## chef8489

Ok here are some night shots with my phone and the Westinghouse D getter.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah, the WH D does provide a nice visual in the dark.  I love the warm glow it produces.


----------



## buonassi

bcowen said:


> There are two different situations here: "gone bad" and "going bad."  The first would be more of a failure type thing which can happen in several ways: an air leak which has caused a loss of vacuum (evidenced by the silver getter flashing turning a powdery white or disappearing altogether), or electrical leakage developing between the tube's elements causing current to flow where it shouldn't (precursor to a short), the filament (heater) wire breaking from repeated heating/cooling (no orange glow), the tube is just worn out (see below), etc.  These types of failures are not subtle or questionable -- they result either in unmistakable sonic ugliness or no sound output at all.
> 
> The "going bad" part starts as soon as you first plug the tube in, and the tube will continue to wear as it's used. This is extremely oversimplified, but in a small octal tube like the 6SN7 the cathode is coated with an oxide. When the cathode is heated, electrons boil off of this oxide. The anode (plate) has a more positive charge than the cathode and it attracts these 'boiled off' (emitted) electrons and an electrical current is produced in the process (amplification). With usage, the oxide coating will degrade and diminish and fewer and fewer electrons will be emitted. At some point there are not enough electrons emitted and flowing to allow the tube to function properly, and that will usually manifest itself first in reduced output volume, then loud hum or static-type sounds until the tube quits functioning altogether (ie: no sound).  Think of a tube like a car tire.  A tire is only 'new' when it's first mounted, and the wearing out process starts as soon as you start driving on it. With a tire the wear bars tell you when it must be replaced, but the performance of the tire gradually diminishes before you ever get to those wear bars. Same with a tube minus the wear bars: the performance will diminish before you ever get to that hum/static/non-operable condition. This is not something that happens in a few hours, weeks, or even months. A new 6SN7 tube that's operated within its design parameters should perform well for 1500 hours at minimum (and probably many more) before any noticeable sonic degradation is evident.  Although not 6SN7's, the output tubes I use in my big rig amp have well over 5k hours on them and still show no signs of any sonic decline.
> 
> The most obvious sonic clues that a tube is past its prime are a loss of dynamics and softer bass that is losing impact. I have a tester, so if the system starts to sound 'off' to me and I suspect it's tube related, I'll run a test on the tube(s). Without a tester and you suspect the tube has entered its twilight years probably the best way to check is to plug in a new one (of the same lineage) and see if you hear any difference.  If you can't detect any difference put the new tube back in the box and continue with the old one. This is why people like @Ripper2860 hoard tubes...so they always have that extra one to test.


This is one of the most helpful posts yet.  I thank you for sharing the knowledge so succinctly. Wow!


----------



## buonassi

Ripper2860 said:


> I suspect on/off/on/off/on/off is way worse for a tube than just leaving it on


I'm sure there's some scientific explanation for this.  If anyone has one, it's likely @bcowen.  (BTW, the entropy described by him in that most excellent post makes total sense.  I suspected this was the case:  a constant entropy of the electrons until failure.)  So I wonder what kind of stress (wear/tear) repeated heating/cooling cycles has on the tube vs just leaving it on.  At some point, the decision to leave it on just makes sense - but when is the question.  Where is the apex to extend the tube life.  For this reason, I've just been leaving mine on when I get home from work, then shutting it off when I finally go to bed.  I don't bother turning it off for the hours of non listening in between.  

I wonder if there's any 'rule of thumb' about the heating cooling cycle?  IE  each cycle is equivalent to 10 hours of constant use.  Of course that number was pulled out of thin air, but you get the idea.


----------



## Zachik

Wes S said:


> Lyr 3 is really, really good, so I could see myself keeping it and using it for a long, long time





Ripper2860 said:


> Lyr 3 will always be in my mix. Even if I had a Lyr 4 or 5, Lyr 3 is far too good to sell or discard.





FLTWS said:


> I agree with both of you, and I would keep it even if Schiit makes a balanced version with Freya-like features available which would make it a day of release order for me.


To all those posts I would say: Famous last words!


----------



## Zulkr9

Hey guys can anyone fill me in on how the bass compares with the jotenheim. Also any comparisons between the first gen lyr. TIA


----------



## FLTWS

I's say in comparison with my Jot and Rag, my LYR3's bass is just as deep ranging but a hair less controlled or less tight or leading edge of transient impactful. Conversely, the Jot and Rag are dryer, tighter, and sharper but with less air. These are very small difference to be sure. Different tubes can make a difference also in the LYR3's top to bottom sound as well.

Personally, I like having it both ways of presenting the sound for variety. For a grand you can have both, a fantastic sounding LYR3 and a very good sounding Jot. Associated gear could make a difference however.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

hi all, been lurking here for a while. I have a lyr3 with lisst and tungsol. So far, am enjoying the tungsol immensely. But like most here, am curious about trying another tube. From the last 90+ pages of posts, It seems the westinghouse dgetter is the most popular choice? with the kenrad vt231 a close second? 
I've seen some mention the shuguang we6sn7 also. Has anyone tried that tube? interestingly, i also found that western electric is bringing back the 300b and will be made in georgia. Brand new tubes manufactured to original 300b specs? 

http://www.westernelectric.com/products/300b.html


----------



## Freeflap (Sep 8, 2018)

Using PC to USB output. flac and google premium 

Do most of my listening with the lcd2 and etherflow. Still love the m1060, but the other two have an edge overall especially in bass response.


----------



## Freeflap

here's the link for the we6sn7 shuguang

http://www.psvaneaudio.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=113&search=6sn7

am curious about these as they are "supposed" to replicate the sound of the original we tubes

i am ok with buying older tubes, but i feel there is a lot of bad tubes out there. time is not a friend to plastic and metal parts and am worried that an old tube, even if it's NOS might not last as long as it should vs a new tube?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

Yes, I see lot's of hoarding going on here.... Another reason to look into NEW alternatives. They aint making any more old stuff so the quantities are limited. 

First, i guess i'll need a socket saver. Any recs for this? Also, it seems you all have bought up all the westinghouse Dgetters in the known universe.


----------



## Freeflap

@bcowen : thx for the response. I agree that most newer stuff lacks the type of quality that GE/ WE / RCA had in their heyday. I just looked at your signature: how do you like the tekton? i've been curious about them since the pendragon reviews started popping up online. Almost too good to be true reviews with a design that seemed pretty basic. The double impact looks amazing but not very wife friendly unfortunately.


----------



## ilikepooters

Freeflap said:


> Yes, I see lot's of hoarding going on here.... Another reason to look into NEW alternatives. They aint making any more old stuff so the quantities are limited.
> 
> First, i guess i'll need a socket saver. Any recs for this? Also, it seems you all have bought up all the westinghouse Dgetters in the known universe.




spotted an expensive one on ebay

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...220140?hash=item2cda9c096c:g:sJgAAOSwvRlbWmNM


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 8, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> Also, it seems you all have bought up all the Westinghouse D getters in the known universe.



This sure looks like one -- even a Reliatron.  You may wish to confirm D getter with seller, as it is not perfectly clear, but I've not seen a non-D getter Reliatron labeled version.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Westinghou...079360?hash=item48b17809c0:g:sr8AAOSwhCZbcjBm

(Seems to be untested and a bit yucky looking)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> (Seems to be untested and a bit yucky looking)


...but seller added finger for scale. Just like you guys prefer


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

Ripper2860 said:


> (Seems to be untested and a bit yucky looking)



And way over priced for these attributes.  Not worth the gamble here IMO.



bcowen said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-EL34-GZ3...m=283117591293&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
> 
> I have a couple of these and they are good quality.



I got the same thing and use it with my Northern Electric 6sn7 - it's really good quality.  Actual ceramic base covered in brass - what appears to be gold plated pins and receptacles.  Worth the 10 bucks for sure. Continuity tested just fine of course.


----------



## Ripper2860

Too good to be true? ...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-METAL-...m=253828269427&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 8, 2018)

I saw that one, but not enough seller ratings to make me comfortable pulling the trigger.  The other seller, however ...


----------



## ProfFalkin

Do it


----------



## Zachik

Do it


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

On a different matter - the Frankentube stash is here (and look to be legit !)  
Branding: Raytheon, Sylvania, Philco, and couple blank ones (no branding).
Will post a photo soon....

Adapter from China is still not here so cannot start enjoying them...


----------



## Ripper2860

You could start enjoying them now if you had a soldering iron.


----------



## Zachik

Here is a close-up on one of them... looks legit to me (judging by @bcowen's detailed description)


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> You could start enjoying them now if you had a soldering iron.


Here, put some on my wounds: (and don't forget to rub it in...)


----------



## Zachik

@Ripper2860 - after some references to white powders in recent posts, made sure I chose an image that spells it for you... just in case there was any doubt about the white powder


----------



## Ripper2860

Ahhhh man.  You got black plates.  Sorry to see that, buddy.


----------



## Zachik

The entire stash (to satisfy the public's requests):


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Ahhhh man.  You got black plates.  Sorry to see that, buddy.


Quoting @bcowen's original description:
3) T-Plates where the flat part of the plates face each other. There are gray plate and black plate versions. I have both, and can't honestly tell much difference between them.

Nice try "buddy"...


----------



## Ripper2860

You bought 7 never having heard them and having no idea if you're even going to like them?!  That my friend is a whole other level -- PREMATURE HOARDING!!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 8, 2018)

Zachik said:


> 3) T-Plates where the flat part of the plates face each other. There are gray plate and black plate versions. I have both, and can't honestly tell much difference between them.
> 
> Nice try "buddy"...



You forget that Bill and I are buddies and triple blackbelt hoarders.  Do you honestly think we would reveal EVERYTHING about the TRUE Frankentubes!!!  You fell head-first into our trap!!!  [evil laugh] Ha. Ha. Ha. [/evil laugh]    


Wait!  Dammit @bcowen -- you weren't supposed to reveal EVERYTHING!!!!


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> You bought 7 never having heard them and having no idea if you're even going to like them?!  That my friend is a whole other level -- PREMATURE HOARDING!!


No argument here... 
But hey - at 3 years / tube, I am set until my retirement (or loss of hearing, whichever comes first...)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 8, 2018)

Please don't give him any ideas.  He's already offered to sell 2 of them and I'd hate for the buyers to end up with Fondled Frankies.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 8, 2018)

I'm going to let you all figure it out.


bcowen said:


> haven't even listened to them yet. By tomorrow they should have cooked long enough to see if they're the second coming....or the second waste of money this week.



Comparisons against the KR VT231 / WH-D would be welcome, as they are known quantities.

Thanks 

I must say I am quite disappointed in the lack of finger for scale in those pictures.   If you're going to fondle it, you might as well finger it too.


I blame Ripper for this thread becoming so dirty.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Sweet! As long as they all have the true racetrack micas (can't see in the photo), they look to be fully legal Frankens. Nice score!


Definitely racetrack micas. I can take more photos later, but definitely the right mica!


bcowen said:


> In absence of an adapter, it's permissible to fondle them.


hmmmm.........  
Note to self: do not buy tubes from @bcowen !



Ripper2860 said:


> Please don't give him any ideas. He's already offered to sell 2 of them and I'd hate for the buyers to end up with Fondled Frankies.


Fondled Frankies - haha! Sounds kinky in an audiophile way...


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Then would now be a bad time to spill the beans on the classified mystery tube?
> 
> By tomorrow they should have cooked long enough to see if they're the second coming....or the second waste of money this week.


Sigh. I truly hope you're not going to make my stash seem like a bad investment after the fact... The mystery tube definitely does not have the cool looks of the Frankies, but to be seen how it sounds...


----------



## buonassi

ProfFalkin said:


> I blame Ripper for this thread becoming so dirty.


He's even influenced your signature I see?


----------



## Freeflap

forgive my ignorance, but what's a frankentube? is it a different type of tube that needs an adapter to use on the lyr3? what is the advantage of doing so?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 9, 2018)

Frankie is a 7N7 tube.  Same electrical specs as a 6SN7, but a different pin-out and base.  You'll need a 7N7 to 6SN7 adapter, but they are rather inexpensive.  Here is Bill Cowen's ( @bcowen ) introduction to Frankentube.  It's a bit of a read, but very informative ...

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/page-84#post-14447101


----------



## ProfFalkin

Well, I would be up for trying a Frankenstein 7n7, If you have a spare to sell out of your stash, of course.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Very rude of me.  Hope this helps?


Surgical skills!  Nice clean cut!


----------



## Wes S

Here to report another great pairing - 

ZMF Blackwood + Modi Multibit + Lyr 3 + Sylvania 52' 3 hole = pure bliss.

Play some acoustic tracks, like anything from Rodrigo y Gabriela and you will be on stage or in the studio with them.  The level of resolve, while still staying musical, with near perfect tone, make for a very nice combo.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

thanks for the explanation. Franken 7n7 Seems an even harder tube to find!!! why am i so late to this game???


----------



## bcowen

ProfFalkin said:


> I'm going to let you all figure it out.



Fine. Just sit back and let us do all the work, then jump on the gravy train after we've exhausted _our_ ears and wallets.
Sounds like what I usually do.  




ProfFalkin said:


> Comparisons against the KR VT231 / WH-D would be welcome, as they are known quantities.



I did quite a bit of back and forth with the Franken, a '51 Foton (ribbed for pleasure), and a tall bottle WH-D. The WH-D edged out the Ken-Rad in my system, so I haven't listened to it in quite a while. The Foton has always had one main endearing quality to me with its rhythmic drive -- it just always gets my foot tapping regardless of the music in play. While hard to identify exactly what it is that provides this, I suspect it's in the microdynamic realm and fleshing out the subtle volume shifts, both softer and louder.  The Foton does this better than the WH-D, and the Franken is at least the equal (if not better) than the Foton in this area. This extends as well into the micro-detail area where notes fade away into silence more naturally. The Franken plumbs lower and with more power and slam in the bass than either the Foton or WH-D. And the Franken does the soundstage/imaging/instrument separation thing better (and substantially so) than either, and better than any other tube I've yet tried. I'll give the nod to the WH-D in the treble which is more extended and airy and has more energy. The Franken doesn't sound necessarily closed-in, it's just that the treble seems a little lower in volume compared to the rest of the frequency spectrum. The WH-D may also have a slight edge in overall dynamics -- the grand scale from soft to loud. The difference here is pretty minor, but it seems the WH-D has just a touch more impact on loud and instantaneous leading edge notes (like the sudden blast of a trumpet or a loud drum whack). 

That help any?


----------



## bcowen

Freeflap said:


> thanks for the explanation. Franken 7n7 Seems an even harder tube to find!!! why am i so late to this game???



These pop up on Ebay fairly regularly. The trick is beating @Ripper2860 to the punch.    Just be sure that ALL the details are in place to get a true Frankentube. I have a half-dozen right now that are tall bottle with parallel T-plates and flashing that looks similar. However the micas are the 'rounded rectangle' type rather than a totally oval racetrack, and the top of the bottle is more rounded. These just don't sound as good. Not sure if one was manufactured by Sylvania and the other by National Union, or whether they were all manufactured by the same company and are just different vintages.

Tube World has these pop up from time-to-time as well. None there right now, but it's where I got my first one. Their prices are a little higher than Ebay but you're also getting a tube that's been thoroughly (and honestly) tested.  There are other reliable vendors that likely have some too, but it seems that TubeWorld is one of the very few that actually posts pictures of this tube type.

https://tubeworldexpress.com/search?q=7n7


----------



## Zachik

I am curious (and do not think that was asked here before):
What tracks are you using for your tube auditioning / comparisons?
Which tracks help with testing low end? Treble? Separation?

I am asking, because for me personally - some tracks are way better than others in trying to nail down specific attributes, and I am always in search for better tracks for that purpose!

BTW, just as a quick off-the-top-of-my-head my short list of test tracks: (format: artist / song name - good for test xyz)
* Lorde / Royals - for low end (lower bass and sub-bass)
* Adele / Hello - testing mid-bass and low female voice
* Sarah Brightman / Phantom of the opera - test high female voice
* Coldplay / Clock - very nice piano track that I personally love
* Dire Straits / Sultans of swing - favorite electric guitars track
* Dire Straits / Brothers in arms - male vocals (definitely not the best for that purpose, but one of my all time favorites)
* Sam Smith / <cannot remember song name> - male vocals

I am sure I left a few out... but that's a start 
I realize I need to add to my test track list more male vocals centric tracks, and also tracks for testing treble. Any suggestions are very welcome!


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Fine. Just sit back and let us do all the work, then jump on the gravy train after we've exhausted _our_ ears and wallets.
> Sounds like what I usually do.
> 
> 
> ...


That helps a bunch!   

I too prefer the Foton over the WH-D for a few of my playlists, butt I switch back to the Westinghouse when I want a more even handed sound.   They're a great compliment to each other.

Thanks!

Oh, and sorry about the finger.  Not quite what I meant.  LOL


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> I am curious (and do not think that was asked here before):
> What tracks are you using for your tube auditioning / comparisons?
> Which tracks help with testing low end? Treble? Separation?
> 
> ...



The forum software would edit out the titles of most of what I listen to.  

Try this one for bass whomp:  Linkin Parks "Until It Breaks (Datsik Remix)" from Recharged
For large goosebumps from electric guitar: Marilyn Manson's "Deep Six" from The Pale Emperor
For bass extension AND guitar goosebumps: Muse's "Psycho" from Drones


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 9, 2018)

Yeah, BC sent me his playlist and I listened to it once.  I'm still seeing a shrink to get over the trauma.


----------



## Freeflap

Googling "frankentube" isn't that productive unfortunately... A search for 7n7 tubes does provide a laundry list of options but none that exactly fit the description. I think i might have better chances of finding a westinghouse Dgetter.


----------



## bcowen

The Frankentube term originated here, and I doubt this thread has enough mass to make it to the top of the search engines. 

Just keep an eye out.  One or more are likely to pop up before long.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah, BC sent me his playlist and I listened to it once.  I'm still seeing a shrink to get over the trauma.



I already apoolgized for that.  I knew it would be different than your usual fare:


----------



## Ripper2860

The man is a LEGEND.  I was lucky enough to catch him and Zanfir at Red Rocks...




NOT!


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> The man is a LEGEND.  I was lucky enough to catch him and Zanfir at Red Rocks...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Only in Texas...

ROFL!


----------



## FLTWS

My younger brother use to do a great impression of Yanni shaking his mane.


----------



## Ripper2860

I can assure you - there is no Yanni or Zanfir music in my library.  I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy or a bottle in front of me.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Zachik said:


> I am curious (and do not think that was asked here before):
> What tracks are you using for your tube auditioning / comparisons?
> Which tracks help with testing low end? Treble? Separation?
> 
> ...


There's a ton of great music out there.  My recommendation is to stick with what you know and can detect subtle changes.

Also, I recommend to pick up a copy of Dr. Chesky's - The Ultimate Headphone Demonstration Disc

Have fun!


----------



## buonassi

FLTWS said:


> My younger brother use to do a great impression of Yanni shaking his mane.



Too funny!!!!!

Was the impression replete with the elated smirk just below the caterpillar under his nose?  It's a difficult gesture to impersonate.  Supposedly, you have to be intoxicated with the sounds of a world-music orchestra to pull it off.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> I can assure you - there is no Yanni or Zanfir music in my library.  I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy or a bottle in front of me.


I think it is actually Za*m*fir... some fan you are!


----------



## Zulkr9

FLTWS said:


> I's say in comparison with my Jot and Rag, my LYR3's bass is just as deep ranging but a hair less controlled or less tight or leading edge of transient impactful. Conversely, the Jot and Rag are dryer, tighter, and sharper but with less air. These are very small difference to be sure. Different tubes can make a difference also in the LYR3's top to bottom sound as well.
> 
> Personally, I like having it both ways of presenting the sound for variety. For a grand you can have both, a fantastic sounding LYR3 and a very good sounding Jot. Associated gear could make a difference however.


Thanks for the comparison, I have the original lyr, really tempted to get the jot or the lyr3, So many different opinions make it such a hard decision but one thing is for sure that its a decent jump from the first gen


----------



## Ripper2860

Zachik said:


> I think it is actually Za*m*fir... some fan you are!



Well, it seems we now know who his biggest fan is.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, it seems we now know who his biggest fan is.


My dad used to love him, especially his famous "lonely shepherd" tune. Was playing once in a while on my dad's old vinyl and big KEF floor standing speakers when I was a little kid...
Zamfir, as well as James Last and Henry Mancini... 

Joking aside, that really does bring me back MANY years.........


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 10, 2018)

Love KEF's old reference line.   So good.

So...  Frankie + adapter incoming!   I'm excited to give this a shot.

Also, Auteurs are now living at home instead of work.  Gumby A2 > BW2 > Auteur pairing too good to break up.  Mimby > Lyr 3 > Eikon at work will have to suffice.  Heh.


----------



## Ripper2860

I hope it's not pre-fondled.  A good washing of the tube w/ 90% isopropyl alcohol is recommended -- just in case.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

So, is this the right westlinghouse type of tube? it says O-getter, not D- getter. Not sure if that is a significant difference. Also what should a reasonable price range be? thx

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Strong-M...072482&hash=item1cb78ee648:g:bM8AAOSwiv5bhe3w

same question regarding the 7n7 franken. what is a reasonable price range? 
thx


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 10, 2018)

No.  That's a top halo or O getter.  You definitely want the top D shaped getter holder **.  There has been one member here who actually likes the O getter better than D, but most prefer the D getter model.  Usually D getters are pre-1960. This is a 1960 tube (60-XX).

** There is a bottom D getter Westinghouse.  Not the same.

I think in the $30 range is reasonable for a D getter considering their scarcity.  ($99 is waaaay over for a O getter.  You typically see them for $25)

7N7 Frankie's range from $15 - $25 typically.


----------



## Freeflap

Ripper2860 said:


> No.  That's a top halo or O getter.  You definitely want the top D shaped getter holder **.  There has been one member here who actually likes the O getter better than D, but most prefer the D getter model.  Usually D getters are pre-1960. This is a 1960 tube (60-XX).
> 
> ** There is a bottom D getter Westinghouse.  Not the same.
> 
> ...




Thank you for the information. What about the psvane or shuguang western electric replicas? They are pricey but brand new. some reviews seem to love them, others are mixed.


----------



## FLTWS (Sep 10, 2018)

Is that for the pair $99.00? The seller rating looks fair, the tubes in the picture look clean. I don't see any cracks in the bases. They state the testing they do and request a 5 star rating, sounds like they don't want any unhappy customers.

Man, I'm so glad I was an early LYR-3 purchaser and built my collection of 6SN7's quickly. I feel for all those scrambling at this point.

I've been cooking in a pair of Psvane 6SN7 - UK's, so far so good, but I'm more focused on comparing my Yggy units for the next month. As of this moment I have 400 hours on the Yggy B so I'm ready to commence.


----------



## Ripper2860

I have no experience with PSVane.  I'm sure others will chime in as there are a few that have them and they seem to pair well with Lyr 3.


----------



## Freeflap

is this a franken 7n7? seems sort of square top, chrome, round base mica?? not sure. so confused. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPER-MATC...676918?hash=item363a705f36:g:R70AAOSwFWdbhgxv


----------



## Freeflap

here are the we by shuguang

http://www.psvaneaudio.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=110&product_id=113

Almost worth buying because they look pretty cool.


----------



## Ripper2860

Freeflap said:


> is this a franken 7n7? seems sort of square top, chrome, round base mica?? not sure. so confused.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPER-MATC...676918?hash=item363a705f36:g:R70AAOSwFWdbhgxv



No.  It's not a tall glass, chrome flashing does not extend far enough down (at least 1/3), and the top and bottom mica are round and not oval like a racetrack.


----------



## Freeflap

FLTWS said:


> Is that for the pair $99.00? The seller rating looks fair, the tubes in the picture look clean. I don't see any cracks in the bases. They state the testing they do and request a 5 star rating, sounds like they don't want any unhappy customers.
> 
> Man, I'm so glad I was an early LYR-3 purchaser and built my collection of 6SN7's quickly. I feel for all those scrambling at this point.
> 
> I've been cooking in a pair of Psvane 6SN7 - UK's, so far so good, but I'm more focused on comparing my Yggy units for the next month. As of this moment I have 400 hours on the Yggy B so I'm ready to commence.




1. yes, early bird gets the worm. or tube. whichever. I'm picking over scraps and leftovers now. 
2. am very curious to hear your thoughts on the psvane once it's burned in. thank you.


----------



## FLTWS

Freeflap said:


> is this a franken 7n7? seems sort of square top, chrome, round base mica?? not sure. so confused.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPER-MATC...676918?hash=item363a705f36:g:R70AAOSwFWdbhgxv



I think the F-tubes have a messy schmear of getter flash most of the way down the inside of the tube.


----------



## Freeflap

This???

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-7N7-6S...680099?hash=item5462abd0a3:g:bYsAAOSwDJRblcer


----------



## Freeflap

i think i found one

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ph...142853&hash=item1a38e474d6:g:VIwAAOSwRbtZ99Fp

yes? no?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 10, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> i think i found one
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ph...142853&hash=item1a38e474d6:g:VIwAAOSwRbtZ99Fp
> 
> yes? no?




Yes!!!!

It test just slightly below good, so it's seen some use, but should be OK -- although at a reduced life.


----------



## Freeflap

Ripper2860 said:


> Yes!!!!
> 
> It test just slightly below good, so it's seen some use, but should be OK -- although at a reduced life.



Yes, i was going to ask. how do you interpret the test numbers? besides the obvious, higher is better? Since this tube is 63/63, does that mean 2 years of life? 1 year? 1 month? just not sure how to assess this. I just ordered an adapter 7n7 to 6sn7. I saw that this type of adapter also works with 7f7 type tubes? have anyone tried that type in the lyr3?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 10, 2018)

You're asking me to predict something and I am no psychic, but I would expect 50% tube life.  a WAG on my part would be: 8mos - 1 yr??  Really depends on how much you listen.  Could go 1.5 years.  If I didn't already have a few Frankies, I'd buy it just to see what all the hubbub was about!  



Freeflap said:


> I saw that this type of adapter also works with 7f7 type tubes? have anyone tried that type in the lyr3?



Patience, grasshopper.  I'm sure BC will work his way down the alphabet.  Why don't you try one and let us know!!


----------



## Freeflap

found these also. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-7N7-6S...680099?hash=item5462abd0a3:g:bYsAAOSwDJRblcer

looks about right, but i think the racetrack has the cut off instead of rounded edges? just want to make sure i understand this thing. thx


----------



## Ripper2860

Nope.  Mica is not truly oval.  They are rounded rectangles.  These are Frankimposters.


----------



## Freeflap

Ripper2860 said:


> Nope.  Mica is not truly oval.  They are rounded rectangles.  These are Frankimposters.



Thanks. that's kinda what i thought. Is there any value to these? I understand they are not true franken, but compared to my stock tungsol, is there anything to gain? Thanks.


----------



## Ripper2860

Can't say as I've never tried them.  Personally, I've never had a Sylvania tube I didn't like to some degree or another, and these are Sylvania.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

bcowen said:


> I can't get onto Ebay at work (corporate police). But if that's the tube that's been up there for a while where the ad states "tests strong," look at the test readings shown -- they are lower than the "minimum value" on the seller's tester. I sent that seller an email asking why he was stating "test strong" when his test values are below minimum. Never got a response. If a tester provides a minimum value as a test basis, that means anything below that is NOT GOOD (ie: worn out). If this is not the tube in question, my apologies...just wanted to be sure you didn't spring for a worn out tube.  I'll look at the listing when I get home tonight and verify.



Yes you are correct. That's crazy you would remember that detail! This is rated at 63 "strong". guess it's just used. I will keep looking thx. 

I saw a bunch of 6n8s tubes that are also compatible. Any recs on these? Foton?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 10, 2018)

These are the Foton tubes you want (50's ribbed plate).  Both BC and I have purchased from this seller.  He is reputable and all he has sent so far are strong and well balanced.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8...173507?hash=item238a3dfc83:g:xmAAAOSwjpRavJ8e


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> I hope it's not pre-fondled.  A good washing of the tube w/ 90% isopropyl alcohol is recommended -- just in case.


No tube was fondled leading to or during this transaction!


----------



## rgmffn

Ripper2860 said:


> These are the Foton tubes you want (50's ribbed plate).  Both BC and I have purchased form this seller.  He is reputable and all he has sent so far are strong and well balanced.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8...173507?hash=item238a3dfc83:g:xmAAAOSwjpRavJ8e


I've ordered 2 sets from the seller you linked to above. They all were good, but one was a yr 52, the rest 53's like it says, the 52 stands out in sound quality. It's the best sounding of the 4 fer sure. Looks identical. I'm wondering if it's just better by chance and there really is no differences in say, yr 51 & 52's. But I'm happy to have gotten it.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> These are the Foton tubes you want (50's ribbed plate).  Both BC and I have purchased form this seller.  He is reputable and all he has sent so far are strong and well balanced.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8...173507?hash=item238a3dfc83:g:xmAAAOSwjpRavJ8e


Bought 1 pair from this guy, too. Long wait for them to arrive, but tubes work great and as described!


----------



## Freeflap

thx for all the help and advice. Are these in the same league as the westinghouse d getter? as I am finding that one near impossible to buy. Also, will I need any type of adapter like the 7n7 to use these tubes? 
about to place an order.... hope to request 1952


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 10, 2018)

To many, these are a VERY close 2nd to the WH D getter.  To BC they edge out the WH D (although no one agrees with him!).  They are VERY good tubes once broken-in.  You'll likely need about 100 hours to fully reveal their splendor.  

Bad news:  Patience is required.  
Good news: No adapter required.


----------



## Freeflap

just bought my first pair of tubes for the lyr3. can't wait. Appreciate all the helpful advise and knowledge here from all of you

still gotta find a franken. If anyone wants to sell one....


----------



## ilikepooters

Freeflap said:


> I saw a bunch of 6n8s tubes that are also compatible. Any recs on these? Foton?



'50's Foton with ribbed plates. or the '50-'60's Melz metal bases.


----------



## Ripper2860

BTW -- It typically takes 3 weeks for the tubes to arrive.  They always come in sooner than what eBay states.

Welcome to the club!!!


----------



## Freeflap

Frankly, i'm pretty happy with the tung sol, so any degree of improvement will be icing on the cake. It's not like the tung sol is bad in anyway. There are also a lot of fotons for sale from ukraine. This seller. any one have experience with this? https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-6SN7...993354&hash=item2cc7f4f291:g:KMQAAOSwEyhZ4Pq4


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 10, 2018)

^^^ That's a 60's flat plate -- not the same.  Stick with the other seller -- they are the desired year range (50's) and desired type (ribbed plate -- much better).  And the seller is known and recommended seller by buyers here, which is a plus.


----------



## Freeflap

Ripper2860 said:


> ^^^ That's a 60's flat plate -- not the same.  Stick with the other seller -- they are the desired year range (50's) and desired type (ribbed plate -- much better).  And the seller is known and recommended seller by buyers here, which is a plus.



Yes, thx. I did just order from the seller you recommended. it's 1953 however. Hope it still is great! Thx again.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 11, 2018)

It is.  I should know, I have 8** of them.  


** I fell prey to the only 10 remaining notice.  Only 10 international shipping containers remaining it seems, as he has still not run out.


----------



## FLTWS

I purchased 2 pair from this seller, all 53's, and I like the sound a lot.
I think a post of Rippers gave me the lead.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 10, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> I saw a bunch of 6n8s tubes that are also compatible. Any recs on these? Foton?


I would *highly *suggest a RFHP Foton.

Not many left.  Shipping took a while, but worth it.    A 75+ hour burn-in is required.  No hyperbole there.

Edit - looks like I'm late to the conversation.   I still suggest them.  Link is to the ones I purchased.   $30 for 2 = hell yes.    Mine were a '51 and a '52, not a '53.   No complaints though.

(RFHP = Ribbed for her pleasure.   Blame Ripper for the nickname.)


----------



## Freeflap

ProfFalkin said:


> I would highly suggest a Foton.
> 
> Not many left.  Shipping took a while, but worth it.    A 75+ hour burn-in is required.  No hyperbole there.



Yup. Got my order in today. Just gotta wait 3 weeks??? meanwhile, i'm still looking for a 7n7 franken. thx. the westinghouse dgetter is all but impossible to find. 

I would eventually like to get a couple of each type. NOT trying to hoard. What happens when the even more fantastic and insane the Lyr4, Lyr5, Lyr.....99 comes out and this type of tube is no longer compatible?? I'm guessing there are a lot of Lyr2 owners with hoards of tubes that they wish they never bought.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 10, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> What happens when the even more fantastic and insane the Lyr4, Lyr5, Lyr.....99 comes out and this type of tube is no longer compatible?? I'm guessing there are a lot of Lyr2 owners with hoards of tubes that they wish they never bought.



It's like smart phones.   What happens when the Galaxy Note 10 comes out?   Or the Pixel 3 XL?  Does it matter?  No.   Your choice right now is X Y and Z.   Pick one.   =)

Also, I have a philosophy about buying in the audiophile hobby: 

First, have an exit strategy.  When you find that you are 95% satisfied, stop buying stuff.  I'm pretty much there with my home setup.  This equipment will last a decade or more, there's very little need to upgrade.  Upgrade-itus is a disease.

Second, it's all about the transducer.  Find a headphone that best suits you - for me it's the ZMF Eikon/Auteur - then, and only then, put very serious attention into buying the DAC / amp that compliments it best, with an extreme focus on system synergy.   Believe it or not, one of the better amps I own for the Auteur is a stock Bottlehead Crack.  No speedball.  Crazy, huh?    I've heard the Auteur from the EC Aficionado, a Yggy > Saga > Vidar setup, a A&S Mogwai SE (which is really damned good too), the list goes on.  Something about the Crack just matches extremely well.  It goes to show that synergy trumps price tag every time.

... and, to make all that relevant to this thread, I think that is what makes the Lyr 3 so versatile.  You can tweak the sound with tubes, but it's not so dependant on them that you live and die solely by the tube's characteristics alone.   It is kind of solid state-ish that way.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 10, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Nicely stated, and I couldn't agree more.
> 
> Well, all until that "solid state-ish" thing. My Lyr 3 is crying....


Well... I did say "kind of".   haha


I will now distract you with this:


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 10, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> I will now distract you with this:


​


Zzzzzzzzzzzz.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> ​
> 
> Zzzzzzzzzzzz.


So harsh.


----------



## Ripper2860

I actually liked it.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Yeah I like things that make it easier to sleep too.


LOL


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> You have to consider the music I listen to.



I'll assume you are using the word 'music' in the loosest of terms.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Is this music?


----------



## Freeflap

I'm guessing this is not the right westinghouse? 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Matche...204351?hash=item4d6a8e7b3f:g:EIUAAOSwbihaQxfd

looks like an O-getter on top and not the D-getter. oh well. keep looking. this seller seems to have a LOT of the ogetter.


----------



## Ripper2860

ProfFalkin said:


> Is this music?




Not doing it.  Nope.  Not gonna hit play.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 10, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> I'm guessing this is not the right westinghouse?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Matche...204351?hash=item4d6a8e7b3f:g:EIUAAOSwbihaQxfd
> 
> looks like an O-getter on top and not the D-getter. oh well. keep looking. this seller seems to have a LOT of the ogetter.



Plus it's the gray plate version.  No to gray plates -- even when buying a halo getter Westinghouse.  What you want is …

1. Westinghouse 6SN7GTB
2. Black Ladder plates
3. Parallel but offset plates -- one plate slightly in front of the other with one closer to the mica edge than the other.
4. Top D shaped Getter Holder
5. It can be a medium or short bottle
6. It can be labeled Reliatron Tube or Electronic Tube on the base as long as it has all of the above


----------



## ProfFalkin

Freeflap said:


> I'm guessing this is not the right westinghouse?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Matche...204351?hash=item4d6a8e7b3f:g:EIUAAOSwbihaQxfd
> 
> looks like an O-getter on top and not the D-getter. oh well. keep looking. this seller seems to have a LOT of the ogetter.


For what it's worth, those don't sound bad, but they are far from the D Getter


----------



## Freeflap

speaking of music, have any of you tried the binaural stuff? i'm not talking about the binaural beats meditation stuff ( i think that's weird) but actual music recorded binaurally and played back on headphones? the experience is truly amazing. 







some examples. Unfortunately, most mainstream music doesn't take advantage of this ability for headphones.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 10, 2018)

Yeah -- it's pretty cool!!!  Check out Chesky on HDtRacks.com.


----------



## Freeflap

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah -- it's pretty cool!!!  Check out Chesky on HDTRacks.com.



Yes, chesky is how i found this. The barber shop on youtube is quite convincing. Wish more artists used it.


----------



## Ripper2860

Cool.  That is a neat demo.  Turns out HDTracks has more binaural than I thought ...

http://www.hdtracks.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=binaural+recording


----------



## Freeflap

Ripper2860 said:


> Plus it's the gray plate version.  No to gray plates -- even when buying a halo getter Westinghouse.  What you want is …
> 
> 1. Westinghouse 6SN7GTB
> 2. Black Ladder plates
> ...



Thanks. that's very helpful. I'm putting all these great suggestions into a google doc. perhaps it will be useful for the next newbie to come after me!


----------



## Ripper2860

One more thing -- you may be able to find the WH D getter tube under other brand labels.  Look for the 337 mfg. code stamped on the tube (337 = Westinghouse).  I've seen EICOR, Cornado, etc., labeled WH D getters.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 10, 2018)

Sorry.  No.

I bet you'll find it here ...

https://thesatanictemple.com/collections/frontpage


----------



## Freeflap

Is there a certain manufacturer  or age range of 7n7 that are certain frankens? and are there some to avoid?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 10, 2018)

As far as age range -- not sure, but if I had to guess 1950's as the loctal mounts were used in car radio system tubes.  (Yeah -- freakin' amazing, huh?  Cars in the 50's had tube-based radios!)

As far as MFG -- I've seen them as Philco, Sylvania, CBS/Hytron, and GE.  I think there's even a member that has a Raytheon labeled Frankie.  All Frankies were made by Sylvania -- even those with other MFG labels.  

My tip: disregard the name/label and focus on the physical characteristics of the tube as described by @bcowen .  Heck 1/2 or more of the tubes have the MFG name and date codes worn off of the glass envelope anyway.


----------



## Freeflap

Ripper2860 said:


> As far as age range -- not sure, but if I had to guess 1950's as the loctal mounts were used in car radio system tubes.  (Yeah -- freakin' amazing, huh?  Cars in the 50's had tube-based radios!)
> 
> As far as MFG -- I've seen them as Philco, Sylvania, CBS/Hytron, and GE.  I think there's even a member that has a Raytheon labeled Frankie.  All Frankies were made by Sylvania -- even those with other MFG labels.
> 
> My tip: disregard the name/label and focus on the physical characteristics of the tube as described by @bcowen .  Heck 1/2 or more of the tubes have the MFG name and date codes worn off of the glass envelope anyway.




I'm asking because i found a couple online stores that ask what type / manufacturer / age range etc... when requesting a tube. They don't respond well to "franken" tube requests! 

so, am i asking for: 1950 Sylvania 7n7 tube. NOS. Chrometop. Squared head. oval mica supports top and bottom. offset plates? Does that sound right or no? am not sure that they would have search engine for physical characteristics. Usually it is limited to tube type age and manufacturer


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 11, 2018)

No offset plates.  You want T-Plates facing each other. Tall bottle and chrome flashing at least 1/3 of the way down the glass.  I'd say 1950's -- not specifically a 1950.

Best bet is to snag @bcowen 's description and a couple of images to include racetrack/oval mica and send the sellers an e-mail. Most sites have a contact section with an e-mail for sales or support.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860




----------



## ScubaMan2017 (Sep 11, 2018)

bcowen said:


> I already apoolgized for that.  I knew it would be different than your usual fare:


Source: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0d/33/ec/0d33ecac6af12c9ef74cb108bc06035b.jpg . Reason: I’m avoiding responsibility... and hey, there’s headphones in the picture ...


----------



## Ripper2860

Lies and propaganda!!!


----------



## Freeflap

Perhaps I missed it, but is there a dramatic difference between the westinghouse "d" getter and halo or "O" getter, all other parameters being equal? Of course I'm asking because there are a LOT of halos and no d available on the 'bay
thx


----------



## FLTWS

Depends on who you ask. I have 2 of each, I don't find a "dramatic" difference but I sourced all mine from a reliable seller who I trust to do a thorough, proper, testing.
I'd suspect a "D" with weak or problematic measurements might sound worse than an "O" that measures strong.
Who I buy from is just as important to me as what I buy when it comes to NOS tubes.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 11, 2018)

To me the O getter sounded softer and rolled at the ends of the spectrums.   Kind of like a generic sylvania or RCA.   It was nothing special, and didn't have the impact and engagement the D getter had.  

Edit:
The O getter tube I had was: grey plates, tall bottle, "reliatron" labeled tube.
My D getter is:  Black plates, short bottle, copper grid posts, "reliatron" label.

No clue on year of mfg, sorry.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 11, 2018)

Just curious if anyone has an answer - Why does it seem that the D getter version of any tube vs. the halo version of the same tube is always better?  Does the getter make a difference, or are there are things going on that we can't see?  For instance with 6922's you see a lot of the early versions have the d getters, and then the latter versions have the halo, and it seems that the D getters are always sought out. . .


----------



## ProfFalkin

Wes S said:


> Just curious if anyone has an answer - Why does it seem that the D getter version of any tube vs. the halo version of the same tube is always better?  Does the getter make a difference, or are there are things going on that we can't see?  For instance with 6922's you see a lot of the early versions have the d getters, and then the latter versions have the halo, and it seems that the D getters are always sought out. . .


The getter is responsible for the flashing on the tube, which helps keep impurities and other junk from messing up the operating components of the tube.  After the vacuum is applied, the getter is superheated by induction, and the metal boils off and leaves the flashing on the glass.  Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it is some kind of phosphorus compound.

I don't believe the shape has anything to do with it, I believe it has to do with the internal structure of the tube and the composition of the flashing.  For example, the tubes that have copper grid post tend to sound better to my ears in general.   Real Bad Boys, WH-D, the Foton, etc.

In truth, I am not sure why all of these tubes sound different.  They should all perform the same electrically, but clearly they don't as they have an impact on sound.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 11, 2018)

Got ya.  Thanks for the reply!  I guess the d getter is just a good visual, of an early years vs. latter years tube.  So the internals used in the earlier production (d getter), are what makes it sound better, and now that I am typing this, it makes sense that if the getter is different, than something on the inside is probably or could be different as well.  Copper grid post, black plates and the earlier the better, seem to have worked good, for me so far.


----------



## ilikepooters

A tube manufacturer changing from one type of getter to another can signal to us a possible change of tooling etc. If they've changed the getter what else have they changed that we can't see?

Normally later tubes have been through cost cutting, O getter might be cheaper to produce, what other parts of the tube have they cheaped out on?


That's capitalism for ya


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead (Sep 11, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Is this music?



Thank heavens you posted the official video.  The unofficial videos are a train wreck </s>

This was an image that popped up with the next videos on deck and captures my reaction fairly well.  This picture is not an endorsement of turning this thread into the cat picture thread ... we have one of those.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

OK - I am ready to admit to the group that either my technique is atrocious, I'm deaf as a post, or <gasp> tube rolling just doesn't make "that" much a difference to me.  Before I give up... tube rolling is brand new to me.  So, I'll start with the hypothesis that my technique is atrocious.  That's one of the reasons I haven't posted too many thoughts yet.  My own thoughts about certain tubes are woefully inconsistent.  This is frustrating as he**, but seriously fun.  I think this will make me a better listener.  I'll still always focus on the tunes, but learning a bit more about how to critically listen and note my thoughts / impressions has been an enjoyable (*cough*) experience.

I tried to find another thread on rolling technique and searched the web to no avail.  When you guys are swapping tubes, in general... how do you try to compare one tube to another?   Is the tube left in for a long period of listening like days or weeks so it can grow on you (like the concept of brain burn), or do you swap them and A/B fairly quickly.  (Assume all tubes are properly burnt in)  I've tried a bit of both, and my notes are a mess.  Do you use a single set of what you'd consider your reference phones or loudspeakers or do you try them with different transducers?  I've been using familiar music and some test tracks and not changing phones - I stuck with the HD 800 S for all my comparative notes.  But I like the sound of certain tubes with certain phones better than others... or at least I think I do.  

What's your technique?

The good news is that I love the music from all of the tubes.  I think the Lyr 3 is just that good.  Yes, without a doubt (OK with some doubts) I hear some differences and lean toward a preference I think I hear with a few of the tubes.  The trouble is getting that into a consistent description and moreover trying to describe it and put it into words that will resonate even with myself when I re-read them and try to compare.  The engineer in me just won't let go and wants to be consistent with my impressions...   Yep, I'm nutzo.  I was considering a full factorial DOE with 3 reps... 12 tubes rated 1-5 across 4 attributes, and had it drawn up...

My name is Patrick, I'm a budding tube-o-holic, and I (seem to) like the sound from the GE tube and the LISST too.  <ducks the barrage of incoming flying tomatoes>


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Do they have your faves?



I'm afraid not. 

Is that an image from your prized Tigerbeat magazine collection??  Nice to see you have hobbies beyond collecting tubes.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 11, 2018)

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> OK - I am ready to admit to the group that either my technique is atrocious, I'm deaf as a post, or <gasp> tube rolling just doesn't make "that" much a difference to me.  Before I give up... tube rolling is brand new to me.  So, I'll start with the hypothesis that my technique is atrocious.  That's one of the reasons I haven't posted too many thoughts yet.  My own thoughts about certain tubes are woefully inconsistent.  This is frustrating as he**, but seriously fun.  I think this will make me a better listener.  I'll still always focus on the tunes, but learning a bit more about how to critically listen and note my thoughts / impressions has been an enjoyable (*cough*) experience.
> 
> I tried to find another thread on rolling technique and searched the web to no avail.  When you guys are swapping tubes, in general... how do you try to compare one tube to another?   Is the tube left in for a long period of listening like days or weeks so it can grow on you (like the concept of brain burn), or do you swap them and A/B fairly quickly.  (Assume all tubes are properly burnt in)  I've tried a bit of both, and my notes are a mess.  Do you use a single set of what you'd consider your reference phones or loudspeakers or do you try them with different transducers?  I've been using familiar music and some test tracks and not changing phones - I stuck with the HD 800 S for all my comparative notes.  But I like the sound of certain tubes with certain phones better than others... or at least I think I do.
> 
> ...


I have no idea what your DAC or Headphones are, so it's kind of hard to tell why you're not able to determine a difference between tubes. 

One thing I can say is don't overthink it.  Also, don't judge it tube until it's got 50 plus hours on it.  Sometimes more.

As far as how I burn my tubes in, it varies from what a lot of people will do.   I put the tube in, I listen to music, and then after about 3 days I'll swap in a known quantity as a baseline.  I listen to that for a couple hours, sometimes day, then swap back to the tube I just burned in.  

Other people use a different amp to burn in the tubes. They don't listen to it during the burn in time.  If I could do this, I probably would.  Other people will just let the amp run overnight for a few days to burn in the tube. 

One thing that may help you is to listen to the same song two or three times, then swap to another tube, and listen to the same song two or three times. The difference should be fairly easy to hear.

And honestly, if you really can't hear the difference between the tubes, that's a good thing. It means you don't have to spend $ on tubes to get the sound you want.   Sometimes these things are blessings in disguise.


----------



## Zachik

ProfFalkin said:


> And honestly, if you really can't hear the difference between the tubes, that's a good thing. It means you don't have to spend $ on tubes to get the sound you want. Sometimes these things are blessings in disguise.


NOW you tell me?! After spending WAY more on tubes than I did on the Lyr 3 itself? I mean W A Y more...


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 12, 2018)

Could have a Rag or Mjolnir for that money.





Oh, sorry, I forgot it's not nice to rub it in.   My bad.

Edit:  just kidding around, I hope you understand.  

Thinking about it, the Lyr 3 is probably the best amp other than the Garage 1217 Sunrise/Horizon amps for cheap tube rolling (although those to do sound much different than the Lyr 3 as I recall).  I'm not including the Vali 2, because the best tubes for it can be insane $. 

You only have to buy one tube, extremely good ones can be had for under 40 bucks, and I personally would pick the Lyr over the Mjolnir for sound and size.

If you want crazy 6SN7 tube rolling, look into the Eddy Current Super 7.   Now imagine filling that thing with real Bad Boys.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

ProfFalkin said:


> ...it's kind of hard to tell why you're not able to determine a difference between tubes.
> .
> .
> ...don't judge it tube until it's got 50 plus hours on it.  Sometimes more.
> ...



A huge thank you for the insight.  Greatly appreciated.  I've only got 50+ hours on three of the tubes.  Duly noted re: the blessing in disguise  

However in this case....

I don't want to say that I can't determine a difference.  What I'm trying unsuccessfully to convey is that I can't consistently hear the same differences.  My thoughts are usually consistent and repeatable for the differences I hear in amps, headphones or other equipment.  There are a lot of cases (some DACs etc) where I know I can't reliably tell the difference... I never worry about that.  I don't invest in power cables and most interconnects etc, simply b/c I can't hear a difference the vast majority of the time.  Not being able to hear a difference, like you've said, can be a blessing... pick the cheapest thing that works and rock on.

With the tubes it's a different thing - There's definitely something there, but I can't seem to capture what I'm hearing in a way that repeats itself.  I'll swap out tubes, take notes, and be certain I've heard a difference (that matters).  Then I'll compare the same tubes later.  There will usually be some consistencies, but in a lot of cases, my opinion may change at best or be reversed at worst.   That's why I was joking about the GE.  I am using the LISST as a benchmark (control if you will) b/c it shouldn't change.



ProfFalkin said:


> One thing that may help you is to listen to the same song two or three times, then swap to another tube, and listen to the same song two or three times. The difference should be fairly easy to hear.



Agreed. That works very well.  I use the same songs within and between sessions.  I've been keeping the variables to a minimum.  As an example, that's how I knew (and know) that the  the Ken-Rad got better after some use / burn-in.  The grating sibilance I was noting in some Paul Simon songs was dramatically reduced over time.  

I always hear differences within a quick A/B, but it's the consistency of my opinion between tubes over time that's bugging me.  Per your advice, I should have probably waited to compare until I'd given all the tubes at least 50 hours... if they're still changing through burn-in, then this is a fool's errand.



ProfFalkin said:


> I have no idea what your DAC or Headphones are, so it's kind of hard to tell why you're not able to determine a difference between tubes.


For all comparisons - the chain is Tidal / Qobuz / Local Files => MacBook Pro - Audirvana+ with no AUs and no tweaks => Cheap USB 3.0 compliant cable => Lyr3 MB high gain => Senn HD800 S stock cable.

I've listened to the amp and tubes with other phones and even tried it as a pre-amp for some LS50Ws for fun, but when I compare tubes and take notes, the chain is the same.  I scrapped all my notes from the time period before I moved my transformer (to get rid of the hum).



ProfFalkin said:


> One thing I can say is don't overthink it.



I agree. I'm trying not to.  This is a blast, and I'm enjoying the learning process, but I admit this has become a bit of a passion (obsession)... potato (potahto)

But... What's most important to me is the music.  I mentioned that I keep being drawn to the PSVane.  It seems like a fantastic tube.  I've got over 100 hours (listening) on it + the 20 or so hours I left it sitting.  When I quit trying to "compare" the tubes and just want to jam, that's the one that's in.  I'll spend 30 mins doing a back and forth with a tube or two and then I usually just put in the PSVane to enjoy the music.  When it's in, it stays in, which I guess says something. 

I'll give them more time... and make sure all of them get at least 50 hours before I listen to them and do any more comparisons.  Next back to be cooked is the venerable D-Getter.  I'm just not feeling the love... I'll burn that baby in fully and go from there.

If I ultimately determine that it's my mind playing tricks... you'll get pick of the litter on the tubes   Not that you need any more... 

-Cheers


----------



## FLTWS (Sep 12, 2018)

Being new to tubes is like being new to anything else. There's a learning / experience curve to arrive at a given level of what works for you interpretative-ly, especially given that we all hear differently and have different levels of expectation with different genres of music, and different hardware's with there own unique sound characteristics.

These tube sound differences are often subtleties that can be affected by our mood, health, life challenges of the moment, etc. We may think we are psychologically receptive in the same way day in and day out but we are not. A day where I may have a lot of "things to do" that have nothing to do with audio can interfere with my processes. I wonder what audiophiles in the Carolina's are thinking about today.

Don't try and listen to all aspects at once. Find one disc with just a few tracks that tell you what's happening in, say, the bass end. Whittle down the candidates by bass performance based on what you feel sounds right. Run through this process with all your tubes before moving on to the next characteristic, say, the extension and crispness of the highs. I have a list of traits I can listen for simultaneously with specific discs / tracks, but it's taken me decades to get to this stage with a level of confidence that I'm doing myself justice. I do make notes as I proceed to minimize recall and guessing. I don't expect my conclusions to align with anyone else's. Many of the listeners here are solidly into the more popular genres of music, I am not. Key sound characteristics I am listening for will not necessarily be the same as what others.are listening for. There is no perfection so pick your trade-offs.

A caveat; I've read from others here at Head-Fi and elsewhere that changing out a lot of tubes in succession can have an affect on tube longevity. Sounds reasonable. I rarely do more than 1 change a day and once I've come to some overall conclusions I cut that down to once a day and then maybe several days, a week and so on.

Comparing properly functioning tubes is not like choosing between 2 colors, say red and green (assuming your not color blind), or wines, red or white. It's more like choosing between shades of gray or a selection of dry Cabernet's.Don't rush your process, this isn't an instant gratification situation.

I've said it before but it bears repeating "The harder I listen the less I hear". Making it chore only makes it harder.

PAX!


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

FLTWS said:


> Being new to tubes is like being new to anything else. There's a learning / experience curve to arrive at a given level of what works for you interpretative-ly, especially given that we all hear differently and have different levels of expectation with different genres of music, and different hardware's with there own unique sound characteristics.
> 
> These tube sound differences are often subtleties that can be affected by our mood, health, life challenges of the moment, etc. We may think we are psychologically receptive in the same way day in and day out but we are not. A day where I may have a lot of "things to do" that have nothing to do with audio can interfere with my processes. I wonder what audiophiles in the Carolina's are thinking about today.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the insight.  Great group of folks here.  I take everything you've both said to heart and agree.  We seem to be very like-minded in our overall thinking.

As for my friends here on Head-Fi and my friends and family at home in the Carolinas.... be well and stay safe.  Flo is getting ready to tell y'all to "Kiss her grits"


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 12, 2018)

bcowen said:


> If the PSVane is doing it for you, leave it in and enjoy it. Play with some other tubes as you go along just for fun, but don't stress and go nuts thinking there's something else out there that will just blow the PSVane out of the water. *You may have already found the best tube for you.*




Or not …


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> Great comments and advice from @ProfFalkin and @FLTWS.  What it all comes down to -- for me -- is what you've discovered with the PSVane. What tube gets you totally immersed in the music and gets your foot tapping, the goosebumps popping, and the emotional connection that makes everything else in the world _except_ the music become (at least temporarily) irrelevant?
> 
> As we all have different setups, different ears, and different likes and preferences there is no "right" tube.  In my warped sense of the universe, tubes are kind of like religion -- if there was one _right_ one, wouldn't we all follow it?  If there was one right tube, we'd all own it....and it alone. But there is no such absolute, and the tube that makes the best music for you may not for me and vice versa. If the PSVane is doing it for you, leave it in and enjoy it. Play with some other tubes as you go along just for fun, but don't stress and go nuts thinking there's something else out there that will just blow the PSVane out of the water. You may have already found the best tube for _you_.


Thank you @bcowen, @ProfFalkin, and @FLTWS for putting your thoughts down.  I'm humbled you took the time. I never even looked to see who started or "owns" this thread, but if there was a way to "sticky" some things - I'd vote for those 3 pieces of wisdom to be captured in a place of prominence.  Just remove my ramblings...

I've absorbed the wisdom.  However, more importantly what I've confirmed by never listening, and learning everything in life the hard way  is:
1) Yes, Virginia, tube burn-in is real
2) Yes, you should listen to those with more experience with such things.  If the wise (cracking) ones say 50+ hours for burn in with some tubes taking up to 100+ hours; don't think they're full of !#$# and start doing critical comparisons after a few hours or right after you plug it in... (hangs head in shame).
3) Even after all that... just go with what you know... What sounds good, sounds good.  What don't, don't.

-Cheers


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Ripper2860 said:


> Or not …



Pure evil.... that's what you are... just pure evil.


----------



## Wes S

So what is everyone's favorite tube at the moment?  

My favorite is the, Sylvania 52' - 3 hole plate - "REAL Bad Boy".


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 12, 2018)

I plugged my Philco '52 Bad Boy in for about 20 minutes and it definitely impressed.  I was pleasantly surprised with the overall balance, but especially with the slam and bass extension.  Those who say the 40's VT-231 and 2-Hole Bad Boys are the same have obviously not heard a true 3-hole Bad Boy!!  I'll spend more time with this tube after it has been independently certified as A-OK.  

I'm looking for another true Bad Boy, so if anyone has a line on a reasonably priced one, I'm all ears!!


----------



## FLTWS

Wes S said:


> So what is everyone's favorite tube at the moment?
> 
> My favorite is the, Sylvania 52' - 3 hole plate - "REAL Bad Boy".



Whatever I'm currently listening to. If I could score a "Real Bad Girl" I'd luv to give that a ...


----------



## Ripper2860




----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 12, 2018)

Wes S said:


> So what is everyone's favorite tube at the moment?



I am currently testing a tube that I don't think anyone has tried yet.  The bass, mid range, and treble are unlike anything I've heard before!  Stringed instruments, vocals, cymbals, and drums just sing to you on this tube.

Oh, and the detail...  I'm hearing things in the music I've never heard before.    I can hear individual hairs brush across the strings of the violins in the 1812 overture.  It's so unreal!

It's literally like I was hearing everything through cheap Apple earbuds before I found this tube.  Now everything sounds like the world's best orchestra is playing my favorite symphonies in the world's best amphitheater... and I'm the only one there to enjoy it.   It's truly that special.   So amazing.

I'm not ready to let the world know about this one.  I would tell you what it is, but then I'd have to kill you.     Sorry.

I'll drop you a hint though.   It requires using two adapters and a splitter, soldering a few resistors between pins, and it rhymes with orange.   
(Just kidding, I'm using the '51 RFHP Foton at the moment.)


----------



## FLTWS

Oh!!! I think I know. The Crank Yanker's Special Edition 3000B with the wooden base and mother of pearl glass.
And just who might you be baiting that hook for?
(I do like my 53' Foton's, I don't think too many Lyr - o - philes have been disappointed with these tubes).


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> I am currently testing a tube that I don't think anyone has tried yet.  The bass, mid range, and treble are unlike anything I've heard before!  Stringed instruments, vocals, cymbals, and drums just sing to you on this tube.
> 
> Oh, and the detail...  I'm hearing things in the music I've never heard before.    I can hear individual hairs brush across the strings of the violins in the 1812 overture.  It's so unreal!
> 
> ...


You had me going with that one!  I got real excited, for a second!


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> I plugged my Philco '52 Bad Boy in for about 20 minutes and it definitely impressed.  I was pleasantly surprised with the overall balance, but especially with the slam and bass extension.  Those who say the 40's VT-231 and 2-Hole Bad Boys are the same have obviously not heard a true 3-hole Bad Boy!!  I'll spend more time with this tube after it has been independently certified as A-OK.
> 
> I'm looking for another true Bad Boy, so if anyone has a line on a reasonably priced one, I'm all ears!!


That was the exact first impression I had with it.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 12, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> I am currently testing a tube that I don't think anyone has tried yet.  The bass, mid range, and treble are unlike anything I've heard before!  Stringed instruments, vocals, cymbals, and drums just sing to you on this tube.
> 
> Oh, and the detail...  I'm hearing things in the music I've never heard before.    I can hear individual hairs brush across the strings of the violins in the 1812 overture.  It's so unreal!
> 
> ...



Well, that was completely unwarranted.


----------



## Wes S

Here you go guys!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WESTINGHOU...rentrq:ced0889a1650a9cb69d51b20fff97c40|iid:1


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

So someone gave me this one today. Have not tested it yet.


----------



## Freeflap

Wes S said:


> Here you go guys!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/WESTINGHOUSE-6SN7GTB-PERFECT-MATCH-PAIR-BLACK-PLATE-SQUARE-GETR-TEST-NOS/283156288241?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=44ced6942508474a8df755d4038a546e&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=283156288241&itm=283156288241&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:c563a095-b6b0-11e8-b2e2-74dbd18056f0|parentrq:ced0889a1650a9cb69d51b20fff97c40|iid:1




Looks correct? One has the getter on top, the other is plate mounted. Any thoughts? i just ordered 2 fotons. This will be it for me, unless i can find a 7n7 franken. I'm not a hoarder, I'm not a hoarder, I'm not a hoarder.... Just gotta keep telling myselft that.


----------



## Freeflap

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-7N7-6S...680099?hash=item5462abd0a3:g:bYsAAOSwDJRblcer

Good? Bad? ugly? Frankenposter? can't tell exactly from the pics.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, that was completely unwarranted.


Of course it was.  After all this, you still don't know me.  


Haha


----------



## Wes S (Sep 12, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> Looks correct? One has the getter on top, the other is plate mounted. Any thoughts? i just ordered 2 fotons. This will be it for me, unless i can find a 7n7 franken. I'm not a hoarder, I'm not a hoarder, I'm not a hoarder.... Just gotta keep telling myselft that.


Some have a longer post that the getter, is connected to, other have a shorter one.  I am assuming the "plate mounted", is the shorter one.  They sure look like the real deal, at a good price too.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 12, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-7N7-6S...680099?hash=item5462abd0a3:g:bYsAAOSwDJRblcer
> 
> Good? Bad? ugly? Frankenposter? can't tell exactly from the pics.



Frankimposter.  Mica is rounded off rectangle -- not oval/racetrack.  Believe me, if it were a 7N7 Frankie, I would have bought it by now!!!  Gotta keep my Hoarder certification.


----------



## Wes S

Th3Drizzl3 said:


> So someone gave me this one today. Have not tested it yet.


Looks like a winner!


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

Wes S said:


> Looks like a winner!


nice. a friend had it laying around and said take it. he has nothing that uses tubes anymore lol i got some other misc ones also but nothing that looks really great


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

Wes S said:


> Here you go guys!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/WESTINGHOUSE-6SN7GTB-PERFECT-MATCH-PAIR-BLACK-PLATE-SQUARE-GETR-TEST-NOS/283156288241?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=44ced6942508474a8df755d4038a546e&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=283156288241&itm=283156288241&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:c563a095-b6b0-11e8-b2e2-74dbd18056f0|parentrq:ced0889a1650a9cb69d51b20fff97c40|iid:1



well someone bought them already. dang it. hopefully the one i got tests okay.


----------



## Freeflap

Wes S said:


> Here you go guys!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/WESTINGHOUSE-6SN7GTB-PERFECT-MATCH-PAIR-BLACK-PLATE-SQUARE-GETR-TEST-NOS/283156288241?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=44ced6942508474a8df755d4038a546e&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=15&sd=283156288241&itm=283156288241&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:c563a095-b6b0-11e8-b2e2-74dbd18056f0|parentrq:ced0889a1650a9cb69d51b20fff97c40|iid:1




oh well. i wasn't fast enough with the click. someone bought them. ( it was probably one of you guys... )


----------



## Ripper2860

For the record -- it was not me.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3 (Sep 12, 2018)

i was gonna grab them as well lol. i missed those fotons as well the other day grrrrrr


----------



## FLTWS

They did look choice.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

FLTWS said:


> They did look choice.


indeed.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Frankimposter.  Mica is rounded off rectangle -- not oval/racetrack.  Believe me, if it were a 7N7 Frankie, I would have bought it by now!!!





FLTWS said:


> They did look choice.


They sure did, and it wasn't me either.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

im guessing we have a lurker here buying up links. of course on my day off i miss 2 good listings.


----------



## Freeflap

@ItsAllInMyHead : which psvane are you referring to? I think there will eventually come a time where all the vintage tubes have been hoarded, lost, or used up and died. At that time, we will need to look at new tubes. I am curious because psvane and shuguang are i think, the same company. They make a 181z, and a western electric 6sn7 which not only looks cool, but might actually be cool? i am thinking about buying one after i get my foton, westinghouse d, and possible franken for a comparison torture test.


----------



## Freeflap

So, sylvania 3 hole bad boy? where does this land in the overall hierarchy of tubes? are all 3 hole sylvania "bad boys?"
i see some with three holes that have chrome TOPS and some with chrome BOTTOMS. are they the same? what should we look for? thx


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 12, 2018)

No Chrome tops.  True Bad Boys are...

1. Made by Sylvania *in late '51, '52, or early '53* (other brands possible if the have the 312 Sylvania MFG code)
2. Have bottom chrome flashing extending approx 1/3 to 1/2 of the way up the glass.
3. Have black T-plates
4. Plates have 3 rivet holes per plate
5. Have rectangular bottom mica
6. Have Rectangular top mica with 3 spikes at each end
7. Have a  bottom foil getter.
8. Are 6SN7GT only


**Not a great picture, but it'll give you an idea of what to look for...


----------



## Zachik

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> Pure evil.... that's what you are... just pure evil.


@Ripper2860 - seems like @ItsAllInMyHead has figured you out...


----------



## Freeflap

@Ripper2860 
once again, thank you for the prompt reply. does the amount of chrome flashing change over time? as it seems to represent the amount of atmospheric gas that has leaked into the tube? i thought it was related to the getter. But i'm still a bit fuzzy in my understanding of how a vt works. 

how does the "bad boy" line up against the others listed? westinghouse d, foton, 7n7?


----------



## Wes S

Freeflap said:


> @Ripper2860
> once again, thank you for the prompt reply. does the amount of chrome flashing change over time? as it seems to represent the amount of atmospheric gas that has leaked into the tube? i thought it was related to the getter. But i'm still a bit fuzzy in my understanding of how a vt works.
> 
> how does the "bad boy" line up against the others listed? westinghouse d, foton, 7n7?


Some good comparisons between those tubes, a few pages back.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 12, 2018)

Given my brief listen, here is my very brief comparison ...

1. BB has a more silky mid-range and more bass extension and slam than the WH D.
2. BB has a bit less sound-stage than 7N7, but still a nice and airy presentation.
3. Frankly, it's been a while since I've plugged the Foton in after getting WH D and then Frankie, but as I recall, BB has more slam and bass extension.  Foton has a bit more top end extension, IIRC.

Flashing amount can vary (ex: 1/3 to 1/2) and can run from very mirror-like to a semi-translucent/reflective.  The bottom mica is typically right at or slightly above the top edge of the flashing.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> No Chrome tops.  True Bad Boys are...
> 
> 1. Made by Sylvania *in '52 or early '53* (other brands possible if the have the 312 Sylvania MFG code)
> 2. Have bottom chrome flashing extending approx 1/3 to 1/2 of the way up the glass.
> ...


Actually some were made in 51', as well.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah -- I believe it was late '51, but I'm not sure how late.  I guess any 3 hole with the BB characteristics and 1951 are a safe bet.  I'll update.


----------



## Freeflap

yes? no? 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-vintage-...658565&hash=item5b4c40cf43:g:W4cAAOSw0F9blbrw


----------



## Ripper2860

Yep.


----------



## Freeflap

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep.



FINALLY! Thx. Now hope to win this against you all!!! Then i'm done. For real. Except need to get 1 7n7 franken. Then i'm done.


----------



## Ripper2860

Sure you are.


----------



## Wes S

Freeflap said:


> FINALLY! Thx. Now hope to win this against you all!!! Then i'm done. For real. Except need to get 1 7n7 franken. Then i'm done.


Yep.  And now that we all know, those are gonna go for a lot of money.


----------



## Ripper2860

If they go for less than $150, I'll be shocked.


----------



## Freeflap

Wes S said:


> Yep.  And now that we all know, those are gonna go for a lot of money.



PLEASE DON'T!!! we should have a gentlemen's policy. Once you own one, no bidding until everyone has one!


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

so with the foton's whats the best year to look for?


----------



## Th3Drizzl3 (Sep 12, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> If they go for less than $150, I'll be shocked.


yup they are already up to over 65$ with 4 days left. meh not sure i want to bother. these will not go cheap imo. lol looks like a bidding war between two people. i stay out of those. haha


----------



## Freeflap

@Th3Drizzl3  I purchased the second to last pair two days ago on the bay. Sorry. From with others have told me: 

foton: 1951-1953, ribbed plates


----------



## Th3Drizzl3 (Sep 12, 2018)

i was at work and paypal is blocked there so i couldnt grab a set till i got home and then they were gone. thats one tube i want to try and i can never grab them lol. looks like none left on the bay right now.


----------



## Freeflap

According to Brent at audiotubes.com there is no audible difference between badboy 2 hole and badboy 3 hole tubes. any thoughts?


----------



## ProfFalkin

Freeflap said:


> yes? no?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-vintage-...658565&hash=item5b4c40cf43:g:W4cAAOSw0F9blbrw


Bids going up quick on those.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 12, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> According to Brent at audiotubes.com there is no audible difference between badboy 2 hole and badboy 3 hole tubes. any thoughts?



FWIW -- I have a '55 Sylvie GT 2- hole BB style and it does not sound like the real '53 BB I have. Maybe '55 is too far out.  As I recall, Brent also claims the 40's Sylvania VT-231 is like the BB.  I have a 40's VT-231 from Brent, and it does NOT sound like a BB.  I was actually listening to the VT-231 for 3 days before swapping out to the BB and there's a huge difference.  BB for the win!!

Honestly, I thought the same thing until I got a real BB.  Maybe mine is EXCEPTIONAL and not the norm, but I kinda doubt it.  



ProfFalkin said:


> Bids going up quick on those.



I'm out!


----------



## ProfFalkin

I hope freeflap wins them.  That would be cool


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> I hope freeflap wins them.  That would be cool


Me too!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Hmmm... These look like Bad Boys.  Someone double check that for me, would you please?    

Why have 2 when you can have 5 for less?   Current bid is $99.   Bid on the other auction for the pair is already over $120.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 12, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> PLEASE DON'T!!! we should have a gentlemen's policy. Once you own one, no bidding until everyone has one!


if only. . .however, the real bad boy's go for sale all the time, so don't go to crazy with bidding.  Now the WH d getter is a whole other story.  Those are impossible to find.


----------



## Wes S (Sep 12, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Hmmm... These look like Bad Boys.  Someone double check that for me, would you please?
> 
> Why have 2 when you can have 5 for less?   Current bid is $99.   Bid on the other auction for the pair is already over $120.


Yep, they have the 2 hole plates and all the other indicators, listed a bunch in this thread.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 12, 2018)

The real Bad Boys are 3 hole plates -- not 2.  But they are 1951, have copper support posts, and possess all of the other attributes.  Maybe they are the Brent Jesse 2-hole BB's.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

i tend to see the "bad boys" way more often then a lot of others imo those are going to end for to much for me.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> The real Bad Boys are 3 hole plates -- not 2.  But they are 1951, have copper support posts, and possess all of the other attributes.  Maybe they are the Brent Jesse 2-hole BB's.


----------



## Freeflap

ProfFalkin said:


> I hope freeflap wins them.  That would be cool


thx but it's already out of my comfort zone. I will use my time honored method of procrastination, i mean patience, and wait for the next one. 

Unless, it really is that good? more than the foton, or westinghouse dgetter, or 7n7 franken?


----------



## Ripper2860

FYI -- Be careful when looking for Bad Boys on eBay as many seem to think any Sylvie w/ 3-holes is a Bad Boy.  I've seen short bottle 6SNWGT/A's, short bottle 6SN7GTA/B Chrome Domes, tall bottle 6SN7GT and GTBs (all with w/ top flashing and top getter) and later 6SN7GTs with 2 holes that like very. very close, but have no spiked rectangular top mica (just rectangular).  All referred to Bad Bad Boy tubes.  If they do not have all of the characteristics and fall within '51, '52,  and '53, they are not real Bad Boys.


----------



## Ripper2860

ProfFalkin said:


>




That's what SHE ...  

Nope.  Not gonna do it!


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

did later year fotons have ribbed plates also? i found one but i cant see the markings on the tube but it does have ribbed plates. i think it says 58 but i could be wrong it may be a 53. just curious. thanks


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead (Sep 13, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> @ItsAllInMyHead : which psvane are you referring to? I think there will eventually come a time where all the vintage tubes have been hoarded, lost, or used up and died. At that time, we will need to look at new tubes. I am curious because psvane and shuguang are i think, the same company. They make a 181z, and a western electric 6sn7 which not only looks cool, but might actually be cool? i am thinking about buying one after i get my foton, westinghouse d, and possible franken for a comparison torture test.



I have the one in the pics below.  I purchased it locally in a HKG tube shop.

Here is a link to the official PSVane site.  There is an "English" button at the top right.

http://www.psvane.com/list-3.html
http://en.psvane.com/info-8-178.html

Here is a link to another site that explains the relationship over time of PSVane and Shuguang.  From the 2nd link, it looks like it's put together by Grant Fidelity, one of their North American importers.

http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/who-is-psvane/
http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/psvane_tubes_about_us/


----------



## Freeflap

Of course, the point of ALL of this is to listen to music right? Not sure how many here like Jazz. Not the elevator music jazz, but real jazz. Have to say, I am loving the
Jeff Goldblum & The Mildred Snitzer Orchestra
I know, I know Jeff Goldblum? Yes, from Jurrasic park, the fly, Thor: ragnarok.


----------



## Ripper2860

Finally!!   A Jazz buddy!!!  I'm all about the Jazz.  I do like Jeff Goldblum in movies, so this has peaked my interest!!


----------



## Freeflap

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> I have the one in the pics below.  I purchased it locally in a HKG tube shop.
> 
> Here is a link to the official PSVane site.  There is an "English" button at the top right.
> 
> ...



That is a cool looking tube. Would like to hear more about your impressions on this beast. Surprised that such a wide tube would fit in the lyr3. are you using a socket saver or is that direct? Looks direct from the pic, but am not sure.


----------



## Freeflap

Ripper2860 said:


> Finally!!   A Jazz buddy!!!  I'm all about the Jazz.  I do like Jeff Goldblum in movies, so this has peaked my interest!!



YES!!!! Try his song, "cantaloupe island"

If you like cuban / bossa nova try buena vista social club: candela

I have a mix of music likes. most are jazz / classical piano  / classic rock / and 80's pop ( that's when i grew  up. still love it) some alternative stuff. thx


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

try this: cake: short skirt / long jacket. It's got a great beat and well detailed instruments. LOVE THE COW BELL!!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

bcowen said:


> I have each year of '51 through '55 all with ribbed plates. Then I have '58, '60, '61, '63, and '65, and none of them with ribbed plates. Don't have any 56's or 57's ('cause I'm not a hoarder).  So from what I have in hand, it appears 55 and earlier are ribbed, and 58 and later are not. Not sure exactly when they quit caring about pleasure and deleted the ribs...but it was '55, '56, or '57.



I own two. ON the way. 3 weeks from now... I feel soo... inadequate.


----------



## Freeflap (Sep 12, 2018)

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-...n-snl--video--saturday-night-live--nbc/n41046

yes. can never have ENOUGH cowbell


----------



## Ripper2860

Freeflap said:


> try this: cake: short skirt / long jacket. It's got a great beat and well detailed instruments. LOVE THE COW BELL!!!



My parents are from Cuba, so Buena Vista Social Club is definitely a CD I own.  Candela is my favorite cut.  

And Cake -- love them!!!  Short Skirt / Long Jacket is a definite fave. Gotta love any band with a horn section!!!


----------



## Wildcatsare1 (Sep 12, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> Until you run out of $$ or they put you in the ground.



I would add, when your Wife finally figures out exactly what you’ve been spending, it also could hasten your dirt nap.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead (Sep 12, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> That is a cool looking tube. Would like to hear more about your impressions on this beast. Surprised that such a wide tube would fit in the lyr3. are you using a socket saver or is that direct? Looks direct from the pic, but am not sure.


Direct. 

After I get a bit more comfortable with whether or not my impressions hold any water, I'd be happy to share more.  When I read others' impressions about some pretty popular tubes around here (comparing to other tubes and the LISST), I'm not hearing the same things.  I also (rarely) will offer an impression of something in audio w/o comparing it to a known entity by both people.  That's one of the things I appreciate about this thread.  The posters offer comparisons between tubes on the same amp.

If I say a tube sounds "warm" or "punchy" in my set up, you may find it "dull" or "too bass forward" in yours.  As an example the Senn HD 800 S have an (air quotes) "improved" bass from the HD 800, but while they've still got more bass to my ears, they still don't get close to some other headphones like Focal Clears or Meze Classics.  So with the Senns, I (seem to) like a tube that can deliver a bit more impact.  I'm also music dependent.  Some tubes seem to sound better to me with certain music types.  As an example, I don't place too much emphasis on soundstage.  The Senns do a nice job with that, and I'm not really a huge listener of orchestral music or opera.

With the caveats out of the way - basically amounting to YMMV....  

I think I gravitate to the PSVane compared to the stock Tung Sol as an example b/c it has a bit more emphasis in the bass w/o going too far.  To me... it takes the edge off of female vocals and some electric guitar "harshness" I occasionally hear with the Tung Sol.  It's a *killer* rock and roll tube for me, and the majority of what I listen to is classic rock.  I'm listening to it right now.... The "crunch" of Billy Gibbons' guitar and the perfect snap of the rim shots at the beginning of ZZ Top's La Grange....  just friggin' heaven.  The gravel in his voice is palpable.  When the rest of the band joins at the intro, I just grin... start stomping my foot and smile.  Also, it has enough "tubeness" w/o being soft or mellow.  In comparison with the Tung Sol, I'd say the same amount of wet/dry balance if wet is gooey tubey and dry is LISST.  It has excellent treble presentation with the HD800 S, which may be the single most important aspect to me.  As a comparison - The "softest", "tubiest", "wettest" tube to my ears by example is the RCA 6F8G I have.  Ripper... stay away from that comment 

The PSVane does what I want it to do...  I am careful with this, and everyone's mileage may vary... but the most important thing about it in MY rig to MY ears is that I don't use Sonarworks with the HD800S anymore with that tube and the Lyr 3.  With every other amp/dac combo, I like that headphone better with EQ.  With the PSVane and the Lyr MB I like it A LOT as-is.  Since that's the headphone I'll use most often with this amp... that's what I wanted.

That's a lot of words... I get it...but that's what's important to me. 

I think @earnmyturns has some good vibes on that tube too.  He listens to a lot of what I think is very cool guitar music he's recommended, so his thoughts may help too.


----------



## Ripper2860

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> The "softest", "tubiest", "wettest" tube to my ears by example is the RCA 6F8G I have. Ripper... stay away from that comment



You sir, are no fun.


----------



## Ripper2860

Freeflap said:


> YES!!!! Try his song, "cantaloupe island"



Even better than the original Herbie Hancock version.


----------



## earnmyturns

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> I think @earnmyturns has some good vibes on that tube too. He listens to a lot of what I think is very cool guitar music he's recommended, so his thoughts may help too.


I've not done a careful evaluation switching back and forth between tubes, but in the progression Tung Sol -> Ken Rad VT-231 -> Psvane 6SN7-SE I heard deeper bass, increased detail, and greater depth. Double bass and guitar strings sounding more "material," with lower amplitude overtones being more present. Cymbal overtones are also more present, making the cymbal sound more real. (DAC and headphones for that system listed on sig below).


----------



## skyline315

I've also posted impressions of the same tube if you care to search for them.

Bottom line - the Psvane UK-6SN7 killed my desire for tube rolling.  I put it in my amp with the intention of A/B testing it against other tubes, but I have literally never removed it.


----------



## Freeflap

Very interesting. Thank you for your thoughts on the psvane. I'm still a little confused about this and shuguang. Seems they were once partners but have split apart and making their own tubes separately. I thought at one point, it was the same tube, just different labels. The have the hifi series, some with black glass, and a new greyglass that is their top end tube. Not cheap, but it seems like a great tube. Am thinking about buying one.


----------



## skyline315

Freeflap said:


> Very interesting. Thank you for your thoughts on the psvane. I'm still a little confused about this and shuguang. Seems they were once partners but have split apart and making their own tubes separately. I thought at one point, it was the same tube, just different labels. The have the hifi series, some with black glass, and a new greyglass that is their top end tube. Not cheap, but it seems like a great tube. Am thinking about buying one.


They're sold in pairs in a lot of places.  I'd go in with another HF'er and split the cost.  Comes out around $50 each which is cheaper than a lot of the vintage options such as the KR VT-231, etc.


----------



## Freeflap

The top end is the grey "TII" line. amazon has it for 195 a pair. online, psvane sells for 168. Still crazy expensive, but about the price of a pair of sylvania badboys. I looked at some of your posts and you thought that the psvane was better than the kenrad vt231. you didn't happen to listen against the badboy sylvania or foton? just curious. thx


----------



## FLTWS

I sourced mine through Grant Fidelity (Canada I believe) they apparently apply some stringent testing to theirs, etc., etc.

http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/psvane_tubes_about_us/ 

Even more costly but...


----------



## Ripper2860

skyline315 said:


> I've also posted impressions of the same tube if you care to search for them.
> 
> Bottom line - the Psvane UK-6SN7 killed my desire for tube rolling.  I put it in my amp with the intention of A/B testing it against other tubes, but I have literally never removed it.



Your self-discipline and iron will is impressive!!  My lack of self-discipline has now caused me to add the Psvane to my list of tubes I must acquire.  (I'm so ashamed of myself.)


----------



## FLTWS

LOL, I didn't think hoarders could experience shame?


----------



## Freeflap

there are some on the 'bay also. not sure wether or not it makes a difference who you buy from. 

Also, i see some 12sn7 tubes for sale. some sellers say its compatible with a 6sn7 others say no? any thoughts? 

thx


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 13, 2018)

FLTWS said:


> LOL, I didn't think hoarders could experience shame?



Occasionally.  But we're pretty good about pushing it down deep and justifying our obsession by calling ourselves 'collectors' and convincing ourselves that it is a harmless endeavor, as opposed to say  -- Crack or PCP.


----------



## Freeflap

Ripper2860 said:


> Your self-discipline and iron will is impressive!!  My lack of self-discipline has now caused me to add the Psvane to my list of tubes I must acquire.  (I'm so ashamed of myself.)



i assumed you own every possible tube in every flavor and color already? Have I been deceived so?


----------



## Ripper2860

There are 1 or 2 that I have yet to acquire.


----------



## Freeflap

Ripper2860 said:


> Even better than the original Herbie Hancock version.



didn't know it was hh. First time i heard a version of this song, was by "US3". a rap version. I hate to say a cover is ever better than the original, but it certainly is better recorded. The quality is excellent especially for a live performance and not studio. Generally i dislike most live stuff. it's never as good a recording in terms of audio quality.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 13, 2018)

Woohooo!!  We now have an officially recognized disorder and organizational representation!!


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> Woohooo!!  We now have an officially recognized disorder and organizational representation!!



And most likely some drug company already has had a pill you can take to alleviate symptoms. It seems like they know how to come up with cures before the conditions exist or are discovered.


----------



## skyline315

Freeflap said:


> The top end is the grey "TII" line. amazon has it for 195 a pair. online, psvane sells for 168. Still crazy expensive, but about the price of a pair of sylvania badboys. I looked at some of your posts and you thought that the psvane was better than the kenrad vt231. you didn't happen to listen against the badboy sylvania or foton? just curious. thx



FWIW, some have reported that the cheaper UK-6SN7 sounds at least as good in the Lyr 3, if not better, than it's pricier siblings.



Ripper2860 said:


> Your self-discipline and iron will is impressive!!  My lack of self-discipline has now caused me to add the Psvane to my list of tubes I must acquire.  (I'm so ashamed of myself.)



Ha!  I have no iron will.  Simply good gear that produces wonderful sounding music.  What else is there to search for?


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Split with someone else? What?  No spare?
> 
> It really pains me to do this, but as a  matter of conscience I'm compelled to report this to BOTCHED (*B*ureau *O*f *T*ube *C*ollectors, *H*oarders, and *E*quivalent *D*ysfunctions) to review continuance of your membership.  Sorry.


WOW! Glad I am not the one that suggested to split a pair with someone... 



FLTWS said:


> And most likely some drug company already has had a pill you can take to alleviate symptoms. It seems like they know how to come up with cures before the conditions exist or are discovered.


There is already an artificial substitute to tubes... but some already reported it is not the same experience as the "real deal"...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 13, 2018)

Lisst tubes??  Nah!!  A classic example of the cure being worse than the disease.  No thanks!!


BTW -- I ordered a '51 2-hole Sylvania 'Bad Boy' from  Brent Jesse and will compare to a true 3-hole 'Bad Boy'.  I'll report my findings and we'll see if the rumor that they sound the same is true or false!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Hmmmm.   You know I am running out of tubes to buy and these do look quite snazzy ...


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> This is evil!! Blasphemy!  You can't post this here!  ARRGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!      I feel so dirty after even looking at it.


Purge it with fire!


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Lisst tubes??  Nah!!  A classic example of the cure being worse than the disease.  No thanks!!
> 
> 
> BTW -- I ordered a '51 2-hole Sylvania 'Bad Boy' from  Brent Jesse and will compare to a true 3-hole 'Bad Boy'.  I'll report my findings and we'll see if the rumor thsat they sound the same is true or false!!


I am really interested in this!  and can't wait to hear your thoughts.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS (Sep 13, 2018)

Just FYI:

While we’re talking Psvane, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I was having difficulty removing the directly installed tube as I felt I was scoring the glass on the top plate opening while gently rocking and rolling it to get it out so I went with a lifter. (The socket may be ever so slightly off center with the hole in the top plate - maybe the pins on the tube are a hair over sized (gold plating?) or lifter receptors on the tube are a hair undersized or just need some breaking in). I don’t use lifters with standard shaped glass tubes preferring direct contact between the tube and socket with both LYR-3 and MJ-2.

When I tried to remove the “lifted” tube the lifter came with it. A good thing in my estimation as trying to remove a “lifter(s)” by itself from my MJ-2 was an exercise in difficulty and patience.

The Psvane was a very tight fit into the lifter and I couldn’t get the tube(s) base completely flush to the top of the lifter and was afraid I was going to crush the glass tube or break the seal of the glass to the plastic base. It worked just fine even with the gap, but then I was confronted with trying to separate the lifter from the base. Turns out a simple staple removing tool with a cotton hanky wrapped around the tip and then laying the tube and lifter on a towel and slowly working my way around between the two and twist prying a very little bit at a time, got the job done safely for both the tube and my fingers. Flatware butter knives and such were almost too thick to initially insert, and a steak knife had a thin enough blade on the lower (business) side but looked like a possible trip to the Drs. office for some stitches if there would be an “oops”.

The metal flange of the remover with the hanky was just flexible enough to get the job done without causing any deformation to the plastic base of the tube or top of the lifter.









It’s possible the pair of lifters I got was a little tighter than usual and may loosen a bit over time. I’ve also ordered a different style of lifter to see how that works with these Psvanes.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS (Sep 13, 2018)

bcowen said: ↑
Sorry to waste space but I couldn't help cracking up at this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NO...XYAAOSwE1Bbmbha:sc:USPSFirstClass!28120!US!-1






I really hope nobody beats me to the punch buying this. 

*Priceless!!!*


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


>



@Ripper2860 already suggested other "green leaf" variant...


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Sorry to waste space but I couldn't help cracking up at this one:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NO...XYAAOSwE1Bbmbha:sc:USPSFirstClass!28120!US!-1
> 
> ...



BTW -- I had that on my watch list and reached out to the seller.  There was a mistake with the posting and it should state results are .96 and .96


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

i ordered a pair of the psvane uk tubes tonight. ill have to grab a couple socket savers for them it seems for the lyr. any specific ones u guys recc? ive bought a few that were garbage before. i also have a lead on a few of the fotons im waiting to hear back about. ribbed 52 and 53's


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## FLTWS (Sep 14, 2018)

See my next post.


----------



## FLTWS

Th3Drizzl3 said:


> i ordered a pair of the psvane uk tubes tonight. ill have to grab a couple socket savers for them it seems for the lyr. any specific ones u guys recc? ive bought a few that were garbage before. i also have a lead on a few of the fotons im waiting to hear back about. ribbed 52 and 53's



@

*Th3Drizzl3*


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Octal-EL34-GZ34-KT88-6V6-6L6-5Z3-6SN7-Gold-Plated-Tube-Socket-Saver-Base/283121971623?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=2&asc=20160323102634&meid=937e24ea74134ee9beea7ab9616a5317&pid=100623&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=283117591293&itm=283121971623&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1

I paid $50 for 4, on sale now too!
Should be the picture on the far left at top of page if they haven't moved it. Just make sure you order the correct one.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

I too just ordered the socket saver. am bidding now on a PSVANE Mark II with grey  glass. Not sure how different between the regular hifi version. But it looks cool. that's is more than enough justification. right???


----------



## FLTWS

Absolutely. Its all about style points.


----------



## Phantaminum

bcowen said:


> Depends on whether the 12SN7 with a 12.6 volt heater requirement will work with the 6.3 volts the Lyr 3 provides.  You can damage a tube with over-voltage obviously, but you can also damage a tube with undervoltage.  Not saying a 12SN7 _can't _work in the Lyr, but I've never tried one myself and probably won't ever try one with that big a difference in the heater voltage.



I've made this mistake before and surprisingly tubes still power on and produce sound. Not a blanket statement for all tubes but for 12.6v tubes when I had forgot to switch it from 6.3v and 25v tubes when set to 12.6v. Unfortunately, the sound was flat and veiled which really kills the prospects of trying out tubes out of voltage range.


----------



## Zachik

For those in a hunt for a Frankie, I believe the middle tube in the bottom is it. Mica definitely a racetrack (visible from other photos on the listing). 
Maybe @bcowen or @Ripper2860 can confirm... $47 for 7 tubes (Frankie + 6 others) is not a bad deal IMHO.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273460531489


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

It's all about the looks.... Here's a quote that's attributed to winston churchill: 

Bessie Braddock MP: “Winston, you are drunk, and what’s more you are disgustingly drunk.”

WSC: Bessie, my dear, you are ugly, and what’s more, you are disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly ugly. —1946. Ronald Golding


----------



## Freeflap

Zachik said:


> For those in a hunt for a Frankie, I believe the middle tube in the bottom is it. Mica definitely a racetrack (visible from other photos on the listing).
> Maybe @bcowen or @Ripper2860 can confirm... $47 for 7 tubes (Frankie + 6 others) is not a bad deal IMHO.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/273460531489




wow. you guys don't miss a beat!!! Fortunately, earlier today, I contacted this seller and she was willing to sell me the frankie. YEAH! I just scored my first frankentube!!!


----------



## Ripper2860

Congrats!!!


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

Hopefully, the 7n7->6sn7 adapter will arrive before the tube does. I did ask the seller to let me know if they get any more of this. I let them know the exact style / shape / etc... . If I love it, i might get 1 more, but am willing to share the news here if anyone else wants a franken only if you don't have one yet. Hoarders not included!!!!  I guess that means 99% of you!!!


----------



## Ripper2860

BTW -- if you need the Frankentube fondled while you await the adapter, @Zachik is experienced, ready, and willing.


----------



## Zachik

My Frankies are waiting patiently, unlike me, for the adapter and no fondling taking place...


----------



## Freeflap

I'd like to see that fondling technique. Perhaps a DIY video? It will actually be excruciatingly difficult to have the franken arrive before the adapter. Adapter coming from china. franken coming from Arkansas


----------



## Wes S

Freeflap said:


> Hopefully, the 7n7->6sn7 adapter will arrive before the tube does. I did ask the seller to let me know if they get any more of this. I let them know the exact style / shape / etc... . If I love it, i might get 1 more, but am willing to share the news here if anyone else wants a franken only if you don't have one yet. Hoarders not included!!!!  I guess that means 99% of you!!!


If it is good, you are gonna want a backup, and then a backup for your backup. . .


----------



## Ripper2860

Zachik said:


> My Frankies are waiting patiently, unlike me, for the adapter and no fondling taking place...



Caressing.  Fondling.  Tomato. Tomahto...


----------



## Freeflap

was listening last night to more music, (instead of wasting my life on this forum) and noticed a significant improvement in the sound of my stock tungsol. How many hours does that take to burn in? Is there any reason to say the burn in process is finite? or does it continue as the tube gets older? i am second owner of this lyr3 so don't really know how many original hours are on it. I've put maybe 40-50 hours or so i would guess. In comparison to my JDS element it is now much more noticeably sweeter and smoother in the upper midrange. Deep bass grunt still is a little better on the jds. treble on the jds is a little drier but not by much.


----------



## Zachik

Freeflap said:


> was listening last night to more music, (instead of wasting my life on this forum)


----------



## FLTWS

I'm guessing that's a flightless bird? Otherwise...


----------



## ProfFalkin

Freeflap said:


> was listening last night to more music, (instead of wasting my life on this forum) and noticed a significant improvement in the sound of my stock tungsol. How many hours does that take to burn in? Is there any reason to say the burn in process is finite? or does it continue as the tube gets older? i am second owner of this lyr3 so don't really know how many original hours are on it. I've put maybe 40-50 hours or so i would guess. In comparison to my JDS element it is now much more noticeably sweeter and smoother in the upper midrange. Deep bass grunt still is a little better on the jds. treble on the jds is a little drier but not by much.


The initial settling-in of the tube will be about 50 to 100 hours.    After that it is a slow, steady decline to failure.


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> The initial settling-in of the tube will be about 50 to 100 hours.    After that it is a slow, steady decline to failure.



Depressing, but true.


----------



## Ripper2860

As tubes go, so do we.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 14, 2018)

So I bought a '51 2-hole Sylvania 6SN7GT 'Bad Boy' from Brent Jesse.  I was going to compare it to my '53 Philco (Sylvania-made) 3-hole 'Bad Boy'.  But Noooooo.  I couldn't stop there.  Why should I?  In the interest of science, I must compare to a Sylvania 3-hole 'Bad Boy, right?  Sure!  That's it!  It's not like I suffer from TAD (Tube Acquisition Disorder) or anything.  This is all in the name of science!!!  


Yeah, I did.  

My latest acquisition ...   
(JAN CHS Military '52 Sylvania 3-Hole 'Bad Boy' .  Tests at 100/102)

BTW -- If you need another source for HIGH QUALITY tubes:  Arizona Tube Supply -- http://arizonatubesupply.com (Tell Dave you're from Head-Fi)


----------



## quimbo

Ripper2860 said:


> So I bought a '51 2-hole Sylvania 6SN7GT 'Bad Boy' from Brent Jesse.  I was going to compare it to my '53 Philco (Sylvania-made) 3-hole 'Bad Boy'.  But Noooooo.  I couldn't stop there.  Why should I?  In the interest of science, I must compare to a Sylvania 3-hole 'Bad Boy -- right?  Sure -- that's it.  It's not like I suffer from TAD (Tube Acquisition Disorder) or anything.  It's all in the name of science!!!
> 
> 
> Yeah, I did.  My latest acquisition ...       (JAN CHS Military '52 Sylvania 3-Hole 'Bad Boy' .  Tests at 100/102)
> ...


+1 on Dave,  have bought a few tubes from him


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## Wes S (Sep 14, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> So I bought a '51 2-hole Sylvania 6SN7GT 'Bad Boy' from Brent Jesse.  I was going to compare it to my '53 Philco (Sylvania-made) 3-hole 'Bad Boy'.  But Noooooo.  I couldn't stop there.  Why should I?  In the interest of science, I must compare to a Sylvania 3-hole 'Bad Boy, right?  Sure!  That's it!  It's not like I suffer from TAD (Tube Acquisition Disorder) or anything.  This mis all in the name of science!!!
> 
> 
> Yeah, I did.
> ...


Awesome looking bad boy! and actually looks like one from the original stash, from the guy that named them, bad boy's.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 - Do you know, if Arizona Tube Supply, test for microphonics and noise?


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

nice one ripper. i have been looking for one for a while and dang it i always miss them hahaha


----------



## Ripper2860

I didn't ask specifically, but it seems like a very reputable seller with a great deal of expertise and history.  He specializes in Audio/Preamp and Ham Radio tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860

Th3Drizzl3 said:


> nice one ripper. i have been looking for one for a while and dang it i always miss them hahaha



Go to the site and e-mail him.  He stated he had a few legit Bad Boys available.


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## Th3Drizzl3

Ripper2860 said:


> Go to the site and e-mail him.  He stated he had a few legit Bad Boys available.


if you mean arizona tube he responded he doesnt have any 3 hole left only 2 hole black plates


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 15, 2018)

Oooops.  Maybe Wes S. got there 1st or maybe I inquired about 2-hole Bad Boys at the time and he had several, but offered up a legit 3-hole Bad Boy.  Crap -- I cannot recall.  Getting old is a beyotch!!  Sorry.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Wes S (Sep 14, 2018)

Nope, I didn't buy any bad boys, but wanted to and I am glad someone else beat me to them.  I don't need anymore, but we all know how that goes.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Oooops.  Maybe Wes S. got there 1st or maybe I inquired about 2-hole Bad Boys at the time and he had several, but offered up a legit 3-hole Bad Boy.  Crap -- I cannot recall.  Getting old is a byotch!!  Sorry.


I find a good aged bottle of Scotch will fix most aging woes.


----------



## Ripper2860

I bet they do sound good with your ZMF Blackwood's. I'm anxious to give mine a listen with my Hifiman Anandas when it arrives!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> I bet they do sound good with your ZMF Blackwood's. I'm anxious to give mine a listen with my Hifiman Anandas when it arrives!


Amanada?  One of these days, somebody will sit you down and show you what a real headphone (like the ZMF Auteur) sounds like.




/s


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 15, 2018)

I got a trade-in from Hifiman on my Sundara after right channel started cutting out.  I paid $449 and they credited $400 towards Ananda. Not too bad, if I do say so myself.

The top tier ZMF's are too rich for my blood at $1500 / $1800 and no trade in.  Maybe Auteur will be my next HP.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> I got a trade-in from Hifiman on my Sundara after right channel started cutting out.  I paid $449 and they credited $400 towards Ananda. Not too bad, if I do say so myself.
> 
> Blackwood's are too rich for my blood at $1500 and no trade in.  Maybe that or Auteur will be my next HP.


That's a pretty good deal!


----------



## Phantaminum

Ripper2860 said:


> I got a trade-in from Hifiman on my Sundara after right channel started cutting out.  I paid $449 and they credited $400 towards Ananda. Not too bad, if I do say so myself.
> 
> Blackwood's are too rich for my blood at $1500 and no trade in.  Maybe that or Auteur will be my next HP.



I think there’s a Teak Auteur for sale in the FS forum for $1150.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Ripper2860 said:


> I bet they do sound good with your ZMF Blackwood's. I'm anxious to give mine a listen with my Hifiman Anandas when it arrives!


I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts.  That one has piqued my interest and seems to hit a sweet spot in the lineup.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Maybe that or Auteur will be my next HP.





Phantaminum said:


> I think there’s a Teak Auteur for sale in the FS forum for $1150.


Many (most ?) might disagree with me, but I personally prefer ZMF's Atticus over their Auteur! Both are great but the Atticus is a little bit better (for my ears)!


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 14, 2018)

Heard great things about the Atticus, as well.  Too many excellent HPs and too many options/opinions when you get into the top tier HPs.  Makes my head hurt.


----------



## Phantaminum

Zachik said:


> Many (most ?) might disagree with me, but I personally prefer ZMF's Atticus over their Auteur! Both are great but the Atticus is a little bit better (for my ears)!



The Atticus are a fantastic closed head phone. I’ve never heard a headphone with so much mid bass thump. A pleasure to listen to vocals, electronica, and rock. I’ll eventually come around full circle and purchase another pair.


----------



## Ripper2860

How's the soundstage on Atticus?  I've always been concerned with soundstage on closed HPs.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> Just wait until I save up enough for these. You guys will be soooooooo left in the dust.


I've heard they only sound good through a Lyr 2 with LISST and GE tubes splitting duties.  YMMV, but looking forward to your thoughts


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> How's the soundstage on Atticus?  I've always been concerned with soundstage on closed HPs.


To my ears - they're just great!! Great bass. Great sound signature. Amazing looks. I think they have a very good sound stage for a close pair! Will never sell mine. No matter what. 
The fact that Zach (owner / founder of ZMF) is such a great guy - just make me want to support him even more (don't tell him that! The guy need to stay on his toes... ).


----------



## Phantaminum

Ripper2860 said:


> How's the soundstage on Atticus?  I've always been concerned with soundstage on closed HPs.



Personally, larger than the HD650 but not as large as the Auteurs/HEX V2s. It’s up there because of the Ori pads.

They are also fast for dynamic headphones.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 14, 2018)

So, I bought the first pair of Atticus that Zach ever sold at RMAF 2016.  First on the pre-order list.  After waiting a month I added the Eikon to the order.  I sincerely doubt there been any production changes to the sound quality, but it does date my experience with the Atticus.   It took about 4 months for production to finalize, and for me to get them.

Simply put, the Atticus is a very thick and rich sounding headphone.   There's just so much bass and mids.  The treble is there, but it's not emphasized like the rest of the frequencies.  If you're used to hifiman or Mr Speakers headphones, you're going to find them very very thick sounding because the treble isn't pronounced at all.  I have not heard another headphone that sounds like the Atticus, ever.  It's a very polarizing headphone - you'll either love it or you hate it.  For me, it was as thick as mud.  I returned it for another Eikon.

The Eikon on the other hand, sounds much more even.  It's got amazing sub-bass, then it levels out a bit.  It's still emphasizes the mid-range, but doesn't sound too thick with certain genres.   It's literally your jack of all trades, with amazing bass.  I can find no flaws with it tonally, but it doesn't have super wide head stage like an hd800 (but what does).  Keep in mind, I am a tad sensitive to the treble region.  The Eikon treble has never bitten me (as in, too bright) like the HD800 has. Compared to other closed headphones, the head stage is actually quite wide and a bit deeper.  I would not let its closed nature be a factor in determining if I would buy it due to head stage concerns.  I listen to just about every genre of music on this, and it has yet to disappoint.

The Auteur is much more similar to the Eikon than the Atticus.  Compared to the Eikon, the Auteur brings more sparkle to the top end, more head stage, but it loses a bit of bass due to its open nature.  For an open headphone, it has some of the best bass you can find without the frequency response suffering in other areas.

I've always recommended the Eikon as a safe purchase if you're going in blind.  (If you haven't heard it before.)  I feel safe doing the same with the Auteur.   But the Atticus I absolutely recommend you hear it before you buy it.

So far, the Eikon is still my favorite headphone.  The Auteur is growing on me though.

Hope that helps.

Edit:  the Atticus does have one unique benefit, in that it synergizes with OTL amps in an amazing way.  It's a little picky on the amplifier you pair it with


----------



## Zachik

ProfFalkin said:


> So, I bought the first pair of Atticus that Zach ever sold at RMAF 2016.  First on the pre-order list.  After waiting a month I added the Eikon to the order.  I sincerely doubt there been any production changes to the sound quality, but it does date my experience with the Atticus.   It took about 4 months for production to finalize, and for me to get them.
> 
> Simply put, the Atticus is a very thick and rich sounding headphone.   There's just so much bass and mids.  The treble is there, but it's not emphasized like the rest of the frequencies.  If you're used to hifiman or Mr Speakers headphones, you're going to find them very very thick sounding because the treble isn't pronounced at all.  I have not heard another headphone that sounds like the Atticus, ever.  It's a very polarizing headphone - you'll either love it or you hate it.  For me, it was as thick as mud.  I returned it for another Eikon.
> 
> ...


I am not surprised - most people seem to prefer the Eikon (and Auteur) over Atticus. I do not! To me, the order (from most favorite to least preferred):
Atticus > Auteur > Eikon.

Interestingly, my GF joined me to CanJam NYC in Feb. 2018, and listening to all 3 - had EXACTLY the same order of preference I did. I was not hinting or affecting her choices in any way!


----------



## earnmyturns

FLTWS said:


> Depressing, but true.


I sense a life metaphor there... However -- unlike with tubes -- as an old friend once argued, what you should plot is (mental-physical fitness) * (disposable income)


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Zachik said:


> I am not surprised - most people seem to prefer the Eikon (and Auteur) over Atticus. I do not! To me, the order (from most favorite to least preferred):
> Atticus > Auteur > Eikon.
> 
> Interestingly, my GF joined me to CanJam NYC in Feb. 2018, and listening to all 3 - had EXACTLY the same order of preference I did. I was not hinting or affecting her choices in any way!


Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on the circumstances, my wife and I do not share the same love for audio.  She did tell me the other day that she'd really appreciate it if I could get a set of headphones that she could not hear when I was listening. I was happy to oblige.  So, I've got that going for me, which is nice.


----------



## Zachik

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on the circumstances, my wife and I do not share the same love for audio.  She did tell me the other day that she'd really appreciate it if I could get a set of headphones that she could not hear when I was listening. I was happy to oblige.  So, I've got that going for me, which is nice.


My GF is not into audio gear! Only reason she joined me so she can spend time in NYC while I was at the show... Joined me at the show for 3 hours just to see what this thing is all about


----------



## Freeflap

Found this on Audio Asylum. Here is the quote from the pic: 

The name "bad boy" was first applied to this particular vintage Sylvania 6SN7 by Robert Hutton back in 2001 or 2002. Just as the TSRP is possessed of certain special sonic characteristics that make it a highly sought after tube, so too the '52 Syl. It has a sonic presentation unlike any other Syl 6SN7. A substantial cache of USN surplus '52 bad boys was unearthed in Australia early in the past decade, and at first the gentleman that discovered the cache was selling them on eBay for $50/pair. Robert was among the first, if not the first, to write about their virtues on this very board. He dubbed them bad boys due mainly to their staggering ability to produce bass. I own them, have used them, and I can personally attest that they do indeed live up to their moniker.

If memory serves correctly, I believe it was Len that posted this compare picture. The inards of the '52 are on the left.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> I would interpret that comment as a blank check to buy whatever headphones I wanted.  "You _asked_ me to buy these. Remember?"


Good one!  That's something I would do


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

ribbed 53 fotons back in stock only 3 left 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## Freeflap

What are you listening to this am? 

soundtrack to the movie "whiplash" superb. from the same pair that did la la land. If you love jazz, you will love this. @bcowen 

TEASER: i might have a lead for some 7n7 frankens, and sylvania. will let you know tomorrow. if it's legit, i will buy the lot and sell off the extras to anyone who wants it. 
#notahoarder
#donthoard
#hoardersuck


----------



## Freeflap

Th3Drizzl3 said:


> ribbed 53 fotons back in stock only 3 left
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8S-6SN7-ECC32-1578-FOTON-NOS-TUBES-1953YEAR-LOT-OF-2/152643173507?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649



i think he also has some '51 coming in. just wait if you want that "vintage". sounds like we are shopping for exotic wine?


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Kind of interesting that beyond the 3 holes the plate construction is almost identical....._*except*_ that the Bad Boy plates are a little longer.  Of course there's no telling what differences exist inside those plates, but it's the same thing with the tall bottle versus short bottle 7N7's...even though the bottle heights are substantially different, the plates in the tall bottles are only a_ little_ longer than those in short bottle versions that have parallel plates.  And the Sylvania-made tube that introduced me to Frankentube was made in....1952.


Interesting, about being 1952, as well.  Sylvania was doing something magical that year, to their tubes!


----------



## Wes S (Sep 15, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> What are you listening to this am?
> 
> soundtrack to the movie "whiplash" superb. from the same pair that did la la land. If you love jazz, you will love this. @bcowen
> 
> ...


Cool!  I am interested in a Franken

That soundtrack sounds incredible through my Blackwood, with Lyr and bad boy!


----------



## Th3Drizzl3 (Sep 15, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> i think he also has some '51 coming in. just wait if you want that "vintage". sounds like we are shopping for exotic wine?



ill be on the lookout. i grabbed a pair of the 53 but would love the 51's also. i posted the link here because everyone i was talking to had bought or was buying a set already. this way "lurkers" dont grab them all. seems they get bought by guests if none of us are buying them.

and im up for a frankie as i said maybe even two if there are enough to go around.


----------



## buonassi

Much love for lurkers.  They have a composed restraint I clearly lack.  Just go read some of my drivel.


----------



## Freeflap (Sep 15, 2018)

Absolutely. I have found an interesting resource near me. i explained what i was looking for. i think this guy thinks i'm crazy! i sent him the description and photos to show the exact type of each tube. he will get back to me tomorrow hopefully. limited quantities. about 4-7 of each one he said.

again, happy to share the tubes with you all. thx

re; whiplash: what a great sound track and movie. I am listening on the ether flow. love these hp. i bounce around between these and my audeze lcd2. love the upper midrange on the lcd2 it really sings, but the lower mid / upper bass is a bit "fat" on the audeze vs the ether. i can't find anything i don't love with the ether. I have never heard the zmf line. would like to some day.
I know that most of you hate or have a low opinion of the monoprice m1060. the m1060 with upgraded cable is really a super pair of headphones for the $. upper treble is open wide soundstage and detailed. perhaps a little to etched and the bass is a bit weak.

question:
what do you recommend for a college kid? my son is a freshman and listens to a lot of music when he studies. prefer sealed / closed cans to avoid bothering his roommates. right now, he has vmoda m100, which are great but his bday is coming up. I am going to give him my jds element for amp/dac ( also consider buying an audio-gd ampdac. they seem to get good reviews. nfb11.28) from his laptop. just curious what you would suggest. he listens to mostly top40 pop/rock but also a lot of jazz and even classical ( he plays the piano)
thx


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## earnmyturns

Freeflap said:


> What are you listening to this am?


Phronesis _We Are All_, just released on Bandcamp, 96/24 FLAC digital download. Good studio recording, balance of deep double bass, slow piano, and light-touch drums shines with Psvane 6SN7-SE.


----------



## earnmyturns

Freeflap said:


> just curious what you would suggest.


How much do you want to spend? If you are feeling generous,  MrSpeakers Æon closed are super comfortable for long listening sessions, isolate well and have a delightful tone, they are my work headphones. Before that, I had Shure 1540s, which were decent but a bit muffled comparatively. Gave them to my (just post-college) daughter.


----------



## Freeflap

track #15 "ryan/breakup" from whiplash is a true test of your cans ability to produce deep detailed bass. It's short only 30 secs or so, but really revealing.


----------



## Freeflap

earnmyturns said:


> How much do you want to spend? If you are feeling generous,  MrSpeakers Æon closed are super comfortable for long listening sessions, isolate well and have a delightful tone, they are my work headphones. Before that, I had Shure 1540s, which were decent but a bit muffled comparatively. Gave them to my (just post-college) daughter.



not that much. roughly 200-300 range. too pricey gear tends to walk away on a college campus. 

he really likes the vmoda but was wondering about another option that might sound better. i think they are ok. a bit bass heavy for me but very well made. it's amazing to see many kids walk around with beats. they are just aweful


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 15, 2018)

earnmyturns said:


> Phronesis _We Are All_, just released on Bandcamp, 96/24 FLAC digital download. Good studio recording, balance of deep double bass, slow piano, and light-touch drums shines with Psvane 6SN7-SE.



Downloaded and queued up!!  Thanks!!


----------



## buonassi

That jazz rec sounds good. I just may have to get the hires.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Then you better keep a trash bin handy.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 15, 2018)

earnmyturns said:


> Phronesis _We Are All_, just released on Bandcamp, 96/24 FLAC digital download. Good studio recording, balance of deep double bass, slow piano, and light-touch drums shines with Psvane 6SN7-SE.


That's not bad, but not really my speed.

I'll do this all day though:



If you prefer - https://tidal.com/track/2931943


----------



## Ripper2860

Buddy Guy is excellent.  More the Blues genre, but damn good!!!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Buddy Guy is excellent.  More the Blues genre, but damn good!!!



Yep.   Every time I listen to a bit of jazz, I always seem to get a craving for the Blues.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 15, 2018)

bcowen said:


> I could do that all day too. Love Buddy Guy!
> 
> You ever try any Kenny Wayne Shepard or Jimmy Thackery?  Thackery's style is all over the map, and for some odd reason Tidal doesn't have his best album -- Wild Night Out.



Haha, I've seen Kenny 3 times in concert in Boulder CO.    (The second time he played, his bass player passed out!   Altitude sickness is a thing, by the way.)    A few of my favorites are https://tidal.com/track/35367785 and https://tidal.com/track/4076305.

Keb'Mo is another contemporary Blues artist that I really like.    Check these out:   https://tidal.com/track/1766718 and https://tidal.com/track/1099579 



Thanks for the Thackery link.  Pretty sure I've heard him before on a Tidal blues station.  Good stuff!

Oddly, for as much as I like the Blues, I can't stand Country or Western music.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead (Sep 15, 2018)

bcowen said:


> I would interpret that comment as a blank check to buy whatever headphones I wanted.  "You _asked_ me to buy these. Remember?"



That's exactly how I interpreted her wish; and who am I to deny (her) a nice quiet pair of HD 820s?   I picked them up Friday night, and we are both very happy with them.  For those playing at home, yes she got a gift of her own in addition to more peace and quiet.

On a related note, I think I'm getting a bit "better" at hearing some of the differences in tubes.  I've committed to trying (cough) to get them all burnt in past 50 hours before comparisons.*  I stand by my earlier thoughts that I believe some tubes complement my brain / ears / headphones / amp / / DAC / music combinations better than others.  The venerable D-Getter (now with about 40 hours on it) may be the tube for the HD 820, Lyr 3, and me.  I don't need the increased (perceived) bass the PSVane provides with this configuration, and to me, the D-Getter edges it out b/c it adds a bit of air and space along with what I think are ever-so-slightly clearer mids and treble.  The air is welcome when switching to a closed-back, even though the 820s don't lack for air IMO.

*I avoided good common sense, sage advice, and all that's holy.  I switched out tubes way too many times to make any real comparisons, and only 4 now have over 50 hours.... but I gotta be me.  (Hangs head in shame - again).

I posted this in another thread yesterday, but...



Yes, I know they're "backwards".

On a different note - I also watched Steve Martin and Martin Short's special on Netflix.  An absolute riot IMO.  Many may know this, but Steve Martin's a decent banjo player.  It was filmed at the Peace Center in my "home town" of Greenville, SC in February.   The gin is also from Greenville and is fantastic (for those that might enjoy a tipple).


----------



## ProfFalkin

Looks like the 820's have much better ear pads.

The thin 800 pads suck.


----------



## Freeflap

odd question: do you prefer to use the ly3 in low or high gain. why ?


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

ProfFalkin said:


> Looks like the 820's have much better ear pads.
> 
> The thin 800 pads suck.


Yes, they are thicker and softer by comparison.  I have a relatively small noggin, so it's a welcome change.  They provide a better seal (purportedly for stronger bass and better isolation), and on my head they stay in place a bit better with movement.  The 800 / 800 S will move around on me if I'm not careful.


----------



## Freeflap

those are expensive cans! hope you continue to enjoy them!


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Freeflap said:


> odd question: do you prefer to use the ly3 in low or high gain. why ?


Not an odd question at all.

Personally, I prefer it in high gain.  With high sensitivity / low impedance phones / IEMs, I use an iEMatch to allow the use of high gain.  It's a bit "noisier" than low gain on my set up, but I hear improved dynamics with almost every headphone / IEM.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 15, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> odd question: do you prefer to use the ly3 in low or high gain. why ?


It depends entirely on the tube.  I've noticed some bright tubes sound better on low gain, and some neutral tubes pick up a little bit of air and oomph on High Gain


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Man, those Keb' Mo tracks are nicely recorded.  Thanks!
> 
> 
> And I'm guessing this isn't in your playlist?


No.   Hell no.   

I threw up a little


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 15, 2018)

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> That's exactly how I interpreted her wish; and who am I to deny (her) a nice quiet pair of HD 820s?   I picked them up Friday night, and we are both very happy with them.  For those playing at home, yes she got a gift of her own in addition to more peace and quiet.
> 
> On a related note, I think I'm getting a bit "better" at hearing some of the differences in tubes.  I've committed to trying (cough) to get them all burnt in past 50 hours before comparisons.*  I stand by my earlier thoughts that I believe some tubes complement my brain / ears / headphones / amp / / DAC / music combinations better than others.  The venerable D-Getter (now with about 40 hours on it) may be the tube for the HD 820, Lyr 3, and me.  I don't need the increased (perceived) bass the PSVane provides with this configuration, and to me, the D-Getter edges it out b/c it adds a bit of air and space along with what I think are ever-so-slightly clearer mids and treble.  The air is welcome when switching to a closed-back, even though the 820s don't lack for air IMO.
> 
> ...



Perhaps a little less drinking and a little more listening when comparing tubes is in order.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Perhaps a little less drinking and a little more listening when comparing tubes is in order.


Blasphemy


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 15, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Blasphemy



Or is it a little more drinking and less listening.  Crap -- I can never remember!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Ripper2860 said:


> Perhaps a little less drinking and a little more listening when comparing tubes is in order.


I thought a proper experiment minimized variables.  If I'm going to be drinking while listening....


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 15, 2018)

_*Here's the official tube review rule from the BOTCHED membership manual.  Rule 17 in  Section 101, sub-paragraph C states ...*_

A BOTCHED member must never critically listen or provide comments related to a tube's sound PRIOR to having burned-in a tube for at least 50-60 ** hours. Failure to abide by this rule will result in the following:

*1st infracation: *A warning/virtual tongue-lashing

*2nd Infraction:*  Head-fi LIKE time out for 24 hours where no BOTCHED member will LIKE any post in any thread submitted by the transgressor for a period of 24 hours.

*3rd Infraction:*  Tube Talk Time-out for 48 hours.  The transgressor will not be allowed to post in LYR 3 Tube Rolling thread for 24 hours.  This will be followed by 48 hours of Double Secret Probation. (Oooops.)

*4th Infraction: *Removal and permanent banishment from BOTCHED w/ no refund of club dues, revocation of Frankie Fondling rights, and surrender of all tubes except for LISST.

** For Foton tubes the burn-in period shall be 100+ hours.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

ProfFalkin said:


> That's not bad, but not really my speed.
> 
> I'll do this all day though:
> 
> ...



Phenomenal!!!!!!  OK one more !


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Ripper2860 said:


> _*Here's the official tube review rule from the BOTCHED membership manual.  Rule 17 in  Section 101, sub-paragraph C states ...*_
> 
> A BOTCHED member must never critically listen or provide comments related to a tube's sound PRIOR to having burned-in a tube for at least 50-60 ** hours. Failure to abide by this rule will result in the following:
> 
> ...



LMAO.  Brilliant.  (Golf Clap)

Encore!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 15, 2018)

Yeah.  We amended the manual to include the Fotons in the last meeting .  You were inebriated and passed out before the motion was put to a vote, but we still had a quorum without you.  BTW -- It passed w/ 6 YES votes and one abstention (that being you).


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 15, 2018)

Vote or No Vote -- we expect decorum from you.  You are our board chairman, for Pete's sake!!!  I'll spare you the embarrassment by not recounting the profanities you uttered and the fact that you 'goosed' a female board member before finally passing out.  

(Oooops)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 15, 2018)

Well, she was Robert previously, but since our board medical plan now covers gender reassig...

Never mind.  It was most inappropriate.  Just behave from now on!!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Wow this thread is really going places.   Nobody ever said it was places I wanted to go, but...


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah.  I threw up a little bit posting that last series...   

(Not that there's anything wrong with anything I posted ...)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I do like to walk the razor's edge.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Ripper2860 said:


> I do like to walk the razor's edge.


You've been Thunderstruck...

or stricken...

or just touched in the head...


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> I don't think it's an odd question.  Weird though.
> 
> I run the Lyr in high gain even though my AFC's should jam to ear-damaging levels in low gain. Just seems more dynamic and alive with more low-end grunt in high gain.


I do the same.


----------



## Ripper2860

Depends on the tube for me.  If the tube is very strong with good gain, then I use low-gain mode.  If it needs a bit more oomph, then hi-gain it is.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on the circumstances, my wife and I do not share the same love for audio.  She did tell me the other day that she'd really appreciate it if I could get a set of headphones that she could not hear when I was listening. I was happy to oblige.  So, I've got that going for me, which is nice.


...that was the main reason I upgraded my cans. SHE like a silent living room. Good for my marriage.


----------



## Monahans67 (Sep 16, 2018)

I have read every threat on Lyr 3 Tubes and am a new poster I guess.  I have a lot of Audio Technica headphones as evidenced by my profile.  I have the Lyr 3 and have purchased the famous Westinghouse tube and the Ken Rad and two of the Russian Fotons.  For anyone with the Lyr 3 and the Audio Technica A1000Z headphone I HIGHLY recommend the Ken Rad tube.  Man that really made these phones outstanding to listen to.  The bass is great and the highs are not harsh at all.  If anyone has an extra Ken Rad let me know please.  Would like to keep one in reserve.  Once I get the Fotons in and burned in I will let you all know how they do with the ATH phones.  Thank you all for all the information you have accumulated regarding the Lyr 3.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

so i ended up finding a really nice almost new pair of three hole sylvi's they werent super cheap but not to bad at 60$ each. they look basically like brand new fresh tubes. i stopped in looking for even a good 2 hole but he surprised me when i asked about three holes


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

ScubaMan2017 said:


> ...that was the main reason I upgraded my cans. SHE like a silent living room. Good for my marriage.


hahaha i get the same from the wife and kids so during the day i tend to use closed cans unless im in my home office. then its my way or the other room lol.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

Monahans67 said:


> I have read every threat on Lyr 3 Tubes and am a new poster I guess.  I have a lot of Audio Technica headphones as evidenced by my profile.  I have the Lyr 3 and have urchased the famous Westinghouse tube and the Ken Rad and two of the Russian Fotons.  For anyone with the Lyr 3 and the Audio Technica A1000Z headphone I HIGHLY recommend the Ken Rad tube.  Man that really made these phones outstanding to listen to.  The bass is great and the highs are not harsh at all.  If anyone has an extra Ken Rad let me know please.  Would like to keep one in reserve.  Once I get the Fotons in and burned in I will let you all know how they do with the ATH phones.  Thank you all for all the information you have accumulated regarding the Lyr 3.


which ken rad are u looking for?


----------



## Monahans67

The one I have is a 1946 GT I cant see a 231 marking on it but it sure sounds great.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

hmm ill ask the guy ive been getting some really nice tubes from what he has.


----------



## Monahans67

Thanks so much.  The guy I bought it from said it didn't say WT231 but he thought it was.  He said at least it was the right year for the Ken Rad.


----------



## Wes S

Th3Drizzl3 said:


> so i ended up finding a really nice almost new pair of three hole sylvi's they werent super cheap but not to bad at 60$ each. they look basically like brand new fresh tubes. i stopped in looking for even a good 2 hole but he surprised me when i asked about three holes


Welcome to the club!  Get ready to hear the Lyr 3, at it's full potential!  Not a better tube.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Wes S said:


> Welcome to the club!



+1 Welcome!



Wes S said:


> Get ready to hear the Lyr 3, at it's full potential!







Wes S said:


> Not a better tube.



Wait for it....  Wait for it....


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 17, 2018)

Frankie burning in...




Edit - initial impressions:   BASS.  Rolled off up top.   Not burned in at all, so this will all change.   With that said, I have never burned in a tube that did a complete 180 on it's tonal characteristics, so I think once things get settled in this should be a really good sounding tube.    More to come.


----------



## FLTWS

Like'n that "Predator"
Tube looks brand new!


----------



## Freeflap

ProfFalkin said:


> Frankie burning in...
> 
> 
> 
> Edit - initial impressions:   BASS.  Rolled off up top.   Not burned in at all, so this will all change.   With that said, I have never burned in a tube that did a complete 180 on it's tonal characteristics, so I think once things get settled in this should be a really good sounding tube.    More to come.



@ProfFalkin : looks good. Like the scifi references: romulan warbird, darth vader tie fighter, and predator. how many hours are expected for burn in with the 7n7? 7&7? one of my favorite drinks btw! 

I am expecting my first 7n7 to arrive today. Unfortunately, I don't think that my 7n7-6sn7 adapter will arrive today. Guess i will be in "fondle" mode.


----------



## Monahans67

There's nothing wrong with fondling.  Just don't get carried away. LOL


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 17, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> @ProfFalkin : looks good. Like the scifi references: romulan warbird, darth vader tie fighter, and predator. how many hours are expected for burn in with the 7n7? 7&7? one of my favorite drinks btw!
> 
> I am expecting my first 7n7 to arrive today. Unfortunately, I don't think that my 7n7-6sn7 adapter will arrive today. Guess i will be in "fondle" mode.


I'll do the normal 50 hours, so... Typical work week.   I'll judge sound on Friday.

Yeah, I'm a bit of a sci-fi nut.   Hence the "Dark Side Of That's No Moon" Pink Floyd album cover avatar.


----------



## Freeflap

well.. i just bought my first pair of genuine sylvania 3 hole badboys! found on the bay. looks like they test great. it is finished! I will NOT buy any more tubes, I will not buy any more tubes, i will not buy anymore tubes....


----------



## ilikepooters (Sep 17, 2018)

anyone tried any japanese 6SN7's? Thinking about trying a couple, usually come branded channel master.

Good construction variety too, 

Dark plates with ring getter, grey plates with D getter, even a clear top with bottom getter.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 17, 2018)

I have a Hitachi and Channel Master (Toshiba?) 6SN7.  Not bad, but nothing to write home about.  I'd give Hitachi a bit of an edge over the Channel Master, however.  You're not missing out by not having either, IMHO.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> I have a Hitachi and Channel Master (Toshiba?) 6SN7.  Not bad, but nothing to write home about.  I'd give Hitachi a bit of an edge over the Channel Master, however.  You're not missing out by not having either, IMHO.


My experiences with them are the same.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Freeflap said:


> I will NOT buy any more tubes, I will not buy any more tubes, i will not buy anymore tubes...


Keep telling yourself that and maybe the Tube Fairy will ride down on her magical winged tubicorn and bestow upon you a terrible tube curse.  When that happens, the previously cursed person is released from their torture and are then free to sell all of their tubes.

In other words, soon you will be buying all of Ripper's tubes.


----------



## ilikepooters

Getting in on the frankentubing, just found a westinghouse branded 7N7.

Does it look like on of the good ones?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Westingh...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 17, 2018)

Sorry -- not a Frankie.  It's a Frankimposter.  Mica is rounded corner rectangle, not a true oval/racetrack.  Real Frankfurter has a no straight/parallel sides on the mica.  Mica must be a true oval.      

Frankie -- YES



Left: Frankimposter                        |                      Right: Frankie


----------



## Freeflap

I am now a Frankie owner without an adapter. Arrived today. So in otherwords, I'm a fondler. I'm one who fondles. He who fondles Franken tubes. 

How did I slip down so low ?? Is this rock bottom? Yes I think so. I've reached the abyss.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 17, 2018)

Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boy Update ...

OK.  I received my 2-hole Bad Boy for Brent Jesse and my 3-Hole from Arizona tubes.  Here's my very initial assessment...

Note: My Brent Jesse  2-Hole Bad Boy is a 1951 mfg date.

The difference between the 2-Hole Bad Boy and the '52 Arizona and '53 Philco 3-hole Bad Boys is relatively minor and could be related to variance.  This could change with a bit more time, but the 3-Hole gets a very slight nod at this point w/ a tiny bit more slam.  I'll need to let them really burn-in a bit and do another round of comparisons, but at this point it's practically a toss-up.

If you want to try a 2-Hole Bad Boy, I think the trick is to stay with same criteria as a 3-hole Bad Boy, except for the # of rivet holes.  Keep it at a '51-'53 year, bottom foil getter, bottom flashing 1/3 up the glass, the requisite rectangular bottom mica and rectangular top mica with 3 points on each short-side.  I can assure you my similarly constructed '55 Sylvie 6SN7GT (no spikes on top mica) and 40's VT-231, do not have this level of bass and slam.  Maybe one should try a '51-'53 2-Hole Bad Boy before dropping a bundle on a 3-hole version.  


Honestly -- the Frankie is better!!


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

how do 51 ribbed foton's sound compared to 53's ribbed? or should they sound basically the same?


----------



## Freeflap (Sep 17, 2018)

2 vs 3 hole= that's what I've heard from multiple vendors who have decades of experience with these types of tubes. As long as it meets the other criteria for badboy, 2vs3 hole is cosmetic. But as long as there's a perception that 3 is better  it will continue to command top dollar.

I should get my 3 hole bad boy this week  probably before my Franken adaptor gets here. Whichever arrives first goes into the lyr.

I will likely have to wait the longest for my fotons.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

My new Franken. I'm guessing this is legit.


----------



## Monahans67

What in the world did I get into by reading this thread.  I may become a fondler but I will keep it quiet you know on the down low.  I think ya'll  are slipping into the abyss. LOL


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Can't tell for sure...the pictures are too small.
> That sure looks genuine to me.  And the Professor will be happy with the inclusion of the fingers.



Indeed.  Looks to be about this big...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 17, 2018)

bcowen said:


> @Ripper2860 started it all. The rest of us just kind of look the other way and occasionally nod like we're paying attention.



I exist merely to serve as a warning to others.


----------



## Freeflap

That raises a good point. Since we are buying used or NOS tubes that are 50-60-70 years old, what is the best way to clean and keep the contacts? i've read about deoxit. i have denatured alcohol and some 0000 steel wool. magic eraser does a good job on rust spots. it's soft and less risky to damage the pins?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 17, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Indeed.  Looks to be about this big...



Wow.  I hope that's not to scale or the wife must be very disappointed.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin




----------



## Freeflap

magic eraser works great. Just push the pins directly into the magic eraser. it has just enough abrasiveness to shiny the pins. then cleaned with alcohol prep pads. Pins look clean and shiny. 

for worse cases, i would use 0000 steel wool first, then magic then alcohol prep pad. If it's severely corroded, i will have to buy the deoxit. 

only risk of steel wool is you have to completely clean it afterwards. Any loose filaments of steelwool on the pins might short circuit the amp, cause a fire, kill you. So use a little caution.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

bcowen said:


> 'Frankentube blamed for death of North Carolina man. News at 11.'



Following funeral services, an auction for NC man's vacuum tubes will be held. Light refreshments will be served. Turn out is expected to be light...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 17, 2018)

Found a typo, but I fixed it for you...



bcowen said:


> 'Frankenfondling blamed for death of North Carolina man. News at 11.'



You're welcome.   



Freeflap said:


> Following funeral services, an auction for NC man's vacuum tubes will be held. Light refreshments will be served. Turn out is expected to be light...



I'll be there for the free refreshments and to pilfer the Lores when no one is looking.


----------



## Zachik

ProfFalkin said:


> Frankie burning in...
> 
> 
> 
> Edit - initial impressions:   BASS.  Rolled off up top.   Not burned in at all, so this will all change.   With that said, I have never burned in a tube that did a complete 180 on it's tonal characteristics, so I think once things get settled in this should be a really good sounding tube.    More to come.


Really glad to see Frankie found a good home!


----------



## ProfFalkin

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/253878388489


WH-D for sale.


----------



## buonassi (Sep 18, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/253878388489
> 
> 
> WH-D for sale.



Now this is a thoughtful gesture -  I applaud you sir.  You are not a tube ripper... I mean hoarder.

ps.  Can't remember who coined it, but the word of the decade is "Frankenfondling" - that had me almost in tears.  Oh, and the phallic mega tube picture - priceless.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/253878388489
> 
> 
> WH-D for sale.


That was a nice one!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 18, 2018)

Now my feelers are hurt.  I just want to make sure the Lores are placed in a loving home with someone that truly appreciates them -- me!  I was even going to abscond with few M. Manson recordings and play them via the Lores on occasion, just so they'd feel at home and remember Papa Bill.  If that ain't love, then what is??!!  

It's not like I was gonna hit on the grieving and humiliated widow …



...yet.


----------



## Freeflap

Hey, now I'm not feeling any love? What was the purpose of the frankenfondling??? I'm providing the light refreshments after the funeral. sheesh. 

I will bring the SUV. think i'll need some space for all those tubes... 

@Ripper2860 : rock / paper / scissors for the tektons....


----------



## Freeflap

"off topic": anyone try brimar 6sn7 ? my local contact who sold me the 3hole badboys, recommended them. He feels they are even better than badboys, but not in reference to the lyr3. just as a general impression. 

Sorry. we can resume our regular discussion now.


----------



## Wes S

Freeflap said:


> "off topic": anyone try brimar 6sn7 ? my local contact who sold me the 3hole badboys, recommended them. He feels they are even better than badboys, but not in reference to the lyr3. just as a general impression.
> 
> Sorry. we can resume our regular discussion now.


I have heard they are warm ,and possibly to warm.  Better compared to what?


----------



## Monahans67

Does your name have to be Frank to do the fondling?  Unfortunately at 70 I thing it more resembles the tube on the right.  Sucks to get old. Lol


----------



## Freeflap

Better than the 3 hole bad boy


----------



## FLTWS

Tube-o- haulics Anonymous.
"Hi, my name is Frank, and I'm a fondler"


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 18, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> Better than the 3 hole bad boy


That's such a subjective thing though, and it completely depends on the rest of your gear.   Without a frame of reference, the statement has little to no meaning.  For example...

Read the first two paragraphs of this article.  This proves beyond all doubt that Rafe doesn't get it, at all, because without comparisons the reader cannot have a frame of reference.  Without a frame of reference, if you call something "bright" or "dark", the terms have no meaning.  Bright compared to what?   The Beyer DT990 Premium?  If so, holy crap, I'll avoid that like the plague, thank you very much.

I miss Tyll.

So yeah, better than the 3 hole BB how?



Thanks.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

wait did someone say frakentubes need a good home??


----------



## Wes S (Sep 18, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> Better than the 3 hole bad boy


In the Lyr 3, with Modi MULTIBIT , with my ZMF cans, I doubt it.


----------



## ProfFalkin

BTW - A new Westinghouse tube arrived (halo getter, grey plates), and since I promised a comparison to the famous WH-D, I'll start burning in the frankie overnight and get the WH-D comparo out of the way soon.

Pics might follow.  Maybe.  I'm lazy today.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

*Me and some of the neighborhood kids burning in my just acquired "Too Many Holes to Count" Bad Boys
on our new "Almost A Tube Tester Model #2"
I'm on the far left.
*





*Here's another one of me (I'm in the middle) as we test some N.N.S (New, New, Stock) TungandGroove Nematodes.*


 

*This one shows us burning in some Foolton's*




*They are just about done burning in.*




*I'll have more to report on later!*


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> You can have her long before the funeral.  Is now good?


----------



## Freeflap

Agree. lot's of factors to consider. It's just his opinion on the matter given his experiences with his equipment regarding the badboy 3 hole, which he had lot's of respect for btw. However, having said that, it's not to be ignored either. Today i received my 3 hole badboys. Guess it's burn in time!!


----------



## FLTWS

These arrived 5 days early and in good shape. 
They don't have the identification stickers from the ads picture but otherwise they appear fine.


----------



## Freeflap

ok, new badboy is in the lyr3. Hasn't been 15minutes. Already i'm liking what I'm hearing. wide soundstage. Easily able to pinpoint instrument locations. I keep turning around thinking something is behind me, but it's just the music projecting an instrument behind me.... wow. can't wait till these are burned in.


----------



## Ripper2860

FLTWS said:


> These arrived 5 days early and in good shape.
> They don't have the identification stickers from the ads picture but otherwise they appear fine.



I have what appears to be the same unit.  Very pleased with the build and performance.


----------



## Wes S

Freeflap said:


> ok, new badboy is in the lyr3. Hasn't been 15minutes. Already i'm liking what I'm hearing. wide soundstage. Easily able to pinpoint instrument locations. I keep turning around thinking something is behind me, but it's just the music projecting an instrument behind me.... wow. can't wait till these are burned in.


Love it!  There really is a wow moment, when you first hear, the real bad boy!  I put 1 of mine in and I have not taken it out since and don't plan on it either, until it is used up.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 18, 2018)

If you like the BB, you need to get a 1945 black-base Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7W tall bottle.  They are usually  more expensive than a 3-hole BB, but if you are very diligent and patient, it can be found for a reasonable price.  Excellent bass and SLAM (as good or better than BB) w/ nice extended treble, more air, and a wider soundstage w/ a 3D/Holographic presentation.

The Short bottle can be found more easily and is a bit less expensive.  Not quite as much bass SLAM, soundstage is wide, but not as wide as the Tall bottle, but it has a bit more detail and resolution.

You didn't think the search for the ultimate tube was over now, did you?  You silly rabbit!!


----------



## Freeflap (Sep 18, 2018)

You're trying to tempt me... It's really nice so far. Can't wait to see what changes with burn in. my seller sent me the brimar as well. will have to try that next.




right now listening to "Peel me a grape" by ariana savalas- great music for tuesday afternoon!

If you want something edgier, try "plastic hamburger" by Fantastic Negrito. great guitar and bass lines.


----------



## ProfFalkin

ProfFalkin said:


> BTW - A new Westinghouse tube arrived (halo getter, grey plates), and since I promised a comparison to the famous WH-D, I'll start burning in the frankie overnight and get the WH-D comparo out of the way soon.
> 
> Pics might follow.  Maybe.  I'm lazy today.


Pic:


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> Pic:



Great angles and lighting on those shots. Very crisp, captured that "halo" perfectly.


----------



## ProfFalkin

FLTWS said:


> Great angles and lighting on those shots. Very crisp, captured that "halo" perfectly.


Thanks.   I was too lazy to pull it out for photos.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 18, 2018)

My prediction:. Disappointment. 

Staggered black plated Halo stood a chance.  Gray parallel plates - I don't think so.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> My prediction:. Disappointment.
> 
> Staggered black plated Halo stood a chance.  Gray parallel plates - I don't think so.


They're better than the 3 hole BB's.


JK


----------



## FLTWS

LOL.


----------



## Ripper2860

Ok.  But are they better than Frankentube?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Kind of interesting. Perhaps more similarities than differences?
> 
> A 1945 Sylvania metal base 6SN7A (considered by some to be one of the 'holy grail' versions).  Currently on Ebay for $459:
> 
> ...


I was thinking the same thing the other day!  Nice pics


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> If you like the BB, you need to get a 1945 black-base Sylvania JAN CHS 6SN7W tall bottle.  They are usually  more expensive than a 3-hole BB, but if you are very diligent and patient, it can be found for a reasonable price.  Excellent bass and SLAM (as good or better than BB) w/ nice extended treble, more air, and a wider soundstage w/ a 3D/Holographic presentation.
> 
> The Short bottle can be found more easily and is a bit less expensive.  Not quite as much bass SLAM, soundstage is wide, but not as wide as the Tall bottle, but it has a bit more detail and resolution.
> 
> You didn't think the search for the ultimate tube was over now, did you?  You silly rabbit!!


What about the most important part, the mids?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 18, 2018)

The mids on the W are silky smooth, like the BB. I tried to state differences. 

As far as the Metal A's go.  Too rich for my blood.  Plus reports state that after 10% tube life is used, the magic is gone.  They are also prone to arc between plates.  I'll stick with the W.  Close enough for me.  

Or Frankie!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

You're not fooling anyone.  I know that's your collection waiting to be moved to higher ground.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> I was looking for something to do this weekend, so I think I'm going to bid on this. Gotta be at least one Frankie in there....


Good lord.   That's a few tubes...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Ok.  But are they better than Frankentube?


Initial impression is... not better, but different. 

Seems like this Westinghouse tube sits more in the "neutral" category, where I would put the Frankie and Foton in the "energetic" category.

Is the Halo WH as good as the WH-D?   I'm thinking the WH-D is going to be a tad better, but by how much is unclear.   This really is a pretty good tube.   Only time and burn-in will tell.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 19, 2018)

bcowen said:


> A pair of 1945 Sylvania 6SN7W tubes, (considered by 1 to be one of the 'holy grail' versions). Currently on Ebay for $699:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have not paid over $59 + shipping for any Tall or Short Sylvie 6SN7W tube.  IMHO, the 7N7 Frankie represents value of the century -- at least on Lyr 3.  The thing is that they are difficult to find.  They are by far the absolute closest sound (if not indistinguishable) to a W of all the tubes I have.  There's no denying its greatness, but if one cannot find a Frankie and they find a good deal on a W -- it is well worth the buy, in my opinion!!  


Tip -- check listings for '45 and '46 short bottle Sylvania tubes marked as 'Chrome Dome'.  Look for the freestanding support rod between the plates and umbrella top mica.  They didn't make 'Chrome Domes' in the 40's and none had a freestanding support rod or umbrella mica.  (Imbrella mica can be hard to see at times, but the additional support rod is a give-away.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead (Sep 18, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> SNIP
> Only time and burn-in will tell.



"Burn-in"?!  What is this burn in of which you speak 

Seriously though... I have been patiently rotating the tubes 'til get 50 hrs on them and running them over night.   I have way over 50 on the PSVane and the D-Getter now.  Not tracking time on those any more.  I've put ~50+ on the stock Tung-Sol, the Ken-Rad, and the 6F8G. 

Rollin' Rollin' Rollin'
Oh those tubes are glowin'
Fondlin' tubes should be verboten

Head-Fi!!!!


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

ItsAllInMyHead said:


> "Burn-in"?!  What is this burn in of which you speak
> 
> Seriously though... I have been patiently rotating the tubes get 50 hrs on them and running them over night.   I have way over 50 on the PSVane and the D-Getter now.  Not tracking time on those any more.  I've put ~50+ on the stock Tung-Sol, the Ken-Rad, and the 6F8G.
> 
> ...


this is where having two lyr 3's comes in handy


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

bcowen said:


> A pair of 1945 Sylvania 6SN7W tubes, (considered by 1 to be one of the 'holy grail' versions). Currently on Ebay for $699:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



it's possible that they are in fact, the SAME tube internally with the only difference being the socket layout? Both are about the same age, internally, both are double triode, both were made by the same company. The only difference is one was made for octal 6sn7 and the other for loctal 7n7. I believe that the 7n7 was made for TV as the shorter pin design somehow was more resistant to VHF noise? don't know, just something i read. 


I would guess that both tubes were probably about the same price in the 1940-1950's. it's only a function of supply and demand that one is super expensive and the other is dirt cheap. 

Once the world audiophile community gets wind of the 7n7, prices of that tube will skyrocket as well... 


http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2015/02/tube-of-month-7n7.html


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Th3Drizzl3 said:


> this is where having two lyr 3's comes in handy


I am seriously considering it...  There was another gorgeous tube amp available recently in the classifieds (*cough*) that I let get away.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

so anyone use a early 1940's vt-231 grey glass?


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Th3Drizzl3 said:


> so anyone use a early 1940's vt-231 grey glass?


I'm not sure what year my RCA grey glass is, but yes, maybe, kind of, I think.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 18, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> it's possible that they are in fact, the SAME tube internally with the only difference being the socket layout? Both are about the same age, internally, both are double triode, both were made by the same company. The only difference is one was made for octal 6sn7 and the other for loctal 7n7. I believe that the 7n7 was made for TV as the shorter pin design somehow was more resistant to VHF noise? don't know, just something i read.
> 
> 
> I would guess that both tubes were probably about the same price in the 1940-1950's. it's only a function of supply and demand that one is super expensive and the other is dirt cheap.
> ...




While the Frankie may be the similar to a Sylvania 6SN7W, I suspect that it is not the same.  The 6SN7W is typically 1945 vintage, while the Frankie's seem to be a 1952 vintage.  The 6SN7W has an umbrella top mica and an additional support rod between the top and bottom micas which are not present on Frankie.   There are similarities, like the heavy top flashing and oval bottom mica (and the sound), but I just don't think they are the same tube.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 18, 2018)

I don't disagree.  But while they may sound the same, the fact that they have different physical attributes makes them not the same tube, IMHO.  What I'm getting at is they didn't take a W and throw it onto a Loctal mount to create Frankie.  The important bits may share a great deal of similarities and may even be identical, but they ain't the same tube.


----------



## earnmyturns

Th3Drizzl3 said:


> so anyone use a early 1940's vt-231 grey glass?


I have a 1944 Ken-Rad VT-231, smoked glass, staggered plates. Sitting in my drawer while I enjoy the Psvane 6SN7-SE, but I'm thinking of going back to the VT-231 for a couple of days to refresh my memory of its sound. When the Psvane was burned in I preferred it, but now I'm having second thoughts about its staging/separation relative to the VT-231.


----------



## Freeflap

6 hours into the burn. Still sounds fantastic. Perhaps even smoother in the upper bass? soundstage is freaky wide. bass is deep and tight. can't help but feel sounds in the room that are around me, but are coming from the headphones.... like a binaural recording. but it's not.



Really liking my purchase. Wish i hadn't bought all at once. Went from 1 to 8 tubes in 48hr. At that rate....


----------



## ProfFalkin

Freeflap said:


> Really liking my purchase. Wish i hadn't bought all at once. Went from 1 to 8 tubes in 48hr. At that rate....


You'll be Ripper in under a week.   Far to fast for us to find a cure.   The only sane solution is sinlge malt Scotch.


----------



## Ripper2860

I exist merely to serve as a warning to others.


----------



## Freeflap

16 hours into the burn. still sounds great. can't say much has changed overnight. 
question: i know this has probably been discussed, but does the music have to be on during the burn in? or can i simply leave the lyr3 turned on even in no music is playing?


----------



## Freeflap

update: 
i said earlier that I had an order of some tubes coming in. The initial estimate came in shorter. My seller tested a bunch and found several did not pass the test. I am going to get 8 tubes in. 3 of them are 7n7 but they are used, not NOS.
I have a couple 6sn7gtb westinghouse and one 2 hole 6sn7gt sylvania coming in that are NOS. 

I might keep a couple and sell the rest. I'll take pics once i get them if anyone is still interested. Thx


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 19, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> 16 hours into the burn. still sounds great. can't say much has changed overnight.
> question: i know this has probably been discussed, but does the music have to be on during the burn in? or can i simply leave the lyr3 turned on even in no music is playing?



The general consensus is to burn-in using music.  Burn it in like you would use it.  Bill can elaborate as to the possible whys.


----------



## Freeflap

Perhaps that's why i hadn't noticed much difference overnight. I left the lyr on, but silent.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

yup i always play music at very low levels through a tube to break it in. at least its what i was always told to do over the years so ive stuck with it


----------



## Wes S

Freeflap said:


> Perhaps that's why i hadn't noticed much difference overnight. I left the lyr on, but silent.


The difference are subtle, and sometimes take a while to notice.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 19, 2018)

Adding to the tube archive... 

The WH-H  =  Westinghouse Halo Getter, Grey Plate, Copper Grid post 6SN7GTB tube.

Overall impressions after ~45 hours burn in:

This is one of the most neutral tubes I've ever heard.   It remains musical, avoiding that lifeless sound I've heard from some tubes, yet I can't really pick up on any emphasis across the freq spectrum.   It just kind of gets out of the way.

The WH-*D* sounds better to my ear, which I directly compared this tube to.   The WH-*H* is pretty neutral, and by comparison the WH-*D* adds a small emphasis to sub-bass and has touch more warmth to the mids.  They both have pretty good top end, with a good amount of air and sparkle when called on.  Staging on both are above average, but a touch better on the WH-*D*.  

I think the WH-*H* would be a perfectly acceptable for someone looking for a tube that didn't get in the way or over emphasize anything in the FR.   I think the WH-H sounds fine, but I personally prefer the WH-D for it's "neutral with a touch of warm" for most classic rock, rock, and blues.  I really like the Foton when I feel like spicing things up with it's "omg, everything sounds so rich and vibrant" sound.

Hope that helps.

Also, PM me if you want this tube.  It is pristine.  I'll let it go at cost+shipping.


----------



## Ripper2860

So was it a 'meh' tube??


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 19, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> So was it a 'meh' tube??


Hmmm...

No.

Well, ok, yes - for my personal preferences - yes it was 'meh'.  I like that I can add "flavor" to the sound with tubes, but finding the right kind of flavor is hard (or was until the WH-D / Fotons came along).

Keep this in mind tho - This is not a 'meh' tube in the grand scheme of things.  If anyone wants a tube that is as close to ruler flat neutral as you can get, this might be their tube.  It gives good head stage, didn't seem to have any major (or even minor) bumps or dips in the freq spectrum, and kind of just... got out of the way.  

Some tubes I've heard that were pretty neutral were also lifeless.  Dead sounding music.   This tube didn't do that, which is a huge plus.  Know what I mean?

If neutral is your thing, this one sure whoops the socks off most of the RCA tubes I've heard, a few of the Tung-Sols and Sylvanias, and definitely any of the GE stuff.

Edit - Changed a few things in the post above to enhance clarity of thoughts, and make it easier to determine when I'm referencing the H or D.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 19, 2018)

Yeah.  I've been meaning to talk you about your fashion choices.  I hate to tell you, but parachute pants and acid-washed denim are no longer 'in style'.  And I know you keep saying that 'Members Only' jacket is coming back, but it ain't.  Sorry.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

so the wh-d has been burned in and i spent a while listening and its a damn good tube. im reserving my thoughts till i listen to the bad boy and 51 and 53 foton ribbed. spent the last few hours listening to my full discography of savatage and the lyr 3 just kills it with that type of music. the jot does a great job but something is lost with heavier music and the jot compared to the lyr 3


----------



## Ripper2860

Just remember -- no critical listening and opinions are allowed until after 50 hours burn-in on tubes and 100 hours on Fotons.  

(I suspect you'll like the BB a little better than the WH-D and the Fotons will drive you insane, vacillating between OK/bad/good/bad/OK/excellent/OK/get these the hell out of here/excellent, etc., over the course of their burn-in.  You'll love and hate the high frequencies until it finally settles in at about 100 hours.)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

Come on guys.  I've got three of those in different colors.  Been wearing them for years.  I just dont get the same reaction from people when I wear Jean's. Lol


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 19, 2018)

bcowen said:


> This either?  Say it ain't so.




No.  That's definitely still in.  You should wear it to work tomorrow.  PLEASE!!!


----------



## Freeflap

was someone doing a 3 hole vs 2 hole bb comparison test? thought i read that earlier. So far, 30 hours in the burn. still sounds great. but not much change as the first 6 hours into it. It sounds great on all levels. Bass is maybe a bit deeper than earlier. If this is the only tube i use, i'll be ok with that. 

after this is burned in, i will try the others. stay tuned!


----------



## Ripper2860

I did a quick one a few pages back .

Summary -- if you stick to the same requirements/characteristics of the 3-hole BB ('51-'53 Year/Construction/Mica, etc) -- it's pretty much a wash.  Too close to call between 2 and 3-hole BBs of the same year range and construction.


----------



## buonassi (Sep 20, 2018)

My WH H is definitely not 'meh' to me.  Still my favorite tube.  I find the neutrality comment by @ProfFalkin spot on - but I think the staging beats the WH D.  Could just be my D however.   Gotta remember, these things are at least half a century old, and I don't believe simple testing can account for all sonic properties.  So i don't believe for a second that just because he and I have the same vintage D getter that test 'better than good' or even NOS, that they'll sound identical.  Also, we have different DACs, and I don't think anyone has mentioned the effect that has on a tube.  IE, I prefer a non-oversampling DAC, but will accept minimum phase oversampling filter if that's all I have as a choice (IE portable DAP).  Linear phase has it's place, but not for prog or metal IMO where a clean transient is a must.

With the H, it's all about dat balance and there's just the right amount of 3D tubey goodness and stage width without overly warm mids.  It's just perfect in my chain to my ears.  Remember, I use an overly warm headphone with EQ to smooth out treble spikes. The H just gets it to sing!

That underlined sentence really goes to show just how system dependent and listener subjective this whole tube thing is bros.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Sep 20, 2018)

buonassi said:


> My WH H is definitely not 'meh' to me.  Still my favorite tube.  I find the neutrality comment by @ProfFalkin spot on - but I think the staging beats the WH D.  Could just be my D however.   Gotta remember, these things are at least half a century old, and I don't believe simple testing can account for all sonic properties.  So i don't believe for a second that just because he and I have the same vintage D getter that test 'better than good' or even NOS, that they'll sound identical.  Also, we have different DACs, and I don't think anyone has mentioned the effect that has on a tube.  IE, I prefer a non-oversampling DAC, but will accept minimum phase oversampling filter if that's all I have as a choice (IE portable DAP).  Linear phase has it's place, but not for prog or metal IMO where a clean transient is a must.
> 
> With the H, it's all about dat balance and there's just the right amount of 3D tubey goodness and stage width without overly warm mids.  It's just perfect in my chain to my ears.  Remember, I use an overly warm headphone with EQ to smooth out treble spikes. The H just gets it to sing!
> 
> That underlined sentence really goes to show just how system dependent and listener subjective this whole tube thing is bros.



Sorry, hate to say it, but there are several things I disagree with you on here.

The DAC has zero effect on a tube in the Lyr 3.  It has an effect on the overall sound of the chain, yes.  It's signal is being fed to the remaining parts of the chain, but it does not directly/affect how the tube sounds.  If you had a perfectly transparent tube in the Lyr 3, and connected two DACs to it, then the sonic differences you heard would be the sonic differences in the DACs. The same would be true with a very gooey sounding tube, but in this case the tube might make one chain sound too warm.  See what I mean?  The only situation i can think of where it might possibly affect the sound is if the output voltage from one DAC were *greatly* different than another.

I will agree that the review was a subjective impression of the tube, and personal preference will vary.

There will probably be extremely slight variations in sound from one identical tube to another, given the same build and burn-in / use times, but I have never found it easy to discern said difference in amps like the Elise or IHA-1 unless one was near the end of it's life and the other was NOS.  If the vatiation were that big, then no one would build amps like those because you could never match the sound from two tubes for each channel.

At the end of the day, it's not me that has to like the tube...  you do, and that is all that really counts regarding how it sounds.  Remember, there are people out there who genuinely like the HD700.   That's also why when I was replying to Ripper, I stressed that it was not a 'meh' tube.  I feel that there are certain people who will highly value such a neutral tube.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 20, 2018)

Just to clarify - I think there are 2 Halo getter WH units - one is Gray parallel plates and the other Black parallel plates.  Am I right or do images on eBay vary widely in picture quality leading me to think there are 2 versions?  If there are two - are folks comparing the same versions?


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Just to clarify - I think there are 2 Halo getter WH units - one is Gray parallel plates and the other Black parallel plates.  Am I wrong or do images on eBay vary widely in picture quality?  If there are two - are folks comparing the same versions?


That's a good question, I haven't really looked into it.


----------



## Ripper2860

I really think there are 2 variants of top Halo getter WH -- Gray Plate and Black Plate.


----------



## buonassi

ProfFalkin said:


> If the vatiation were that big, then no one would build amps like those because you could never match the sound from two tubes for each channel.


Very very good point!


----------



## buonassi

Ripper2860 said:


> Just to clarify - I think there are 2 Halo getter WH units - one is Gray parallel plates and the other Black parallel plates. Am I right or do images on eBay vary widely in picture quality leading me to think there are 2 versions? If there are two - are folks comparing the same versions?



I can't say, but both of mine are from 63 and look like this.  Sometimes the plates look gray, other times black depending on lighting and exposure:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/GsvL5kDnWBbZ2nxu8


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> I really think there are 2 variants of top Halo getter WH -- Gray Plate and Black Plate.


There are.


----------



## FLTWS

Difficult to photograph, angle / quality of light makes a difference, the money saving LED lights of today regardless of whether or not they are blu or yellow or whatever, suk!!
It's almost like being color blind at times.
The plates, while parallel, are staggered.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Freeflap (Sep 20, 2018)

7n7 adapter arrived today. just as i finished 50hr burn in of the 3hole bb. Love that tube.

7n7 Initial impressions: decent soundstage. bass is lean. midrange is fat. treble is clean but not sparkly or super clean. good with guitar. will see how it blooms after burn in.


----------



## Freeflap

add: i'm going to need something to store these tubes in. anyone have a suggestion? i think some form of padded box or container that will keep them protected?


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## Ripper2860

This could work …


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Wes S

I keep mine, in their box or a white box, on a shelf, in upright position.  Been working perfect for several years, so far.


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## Freeflap

i was thinking something like this.... ?


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 21, 2018)

Nice.  I just keep mine in individual white tube boxes and then the lot in a cardboard shipping box.  I'm about done w/ acquisition mode and currently sitting at about 50 tubes.  I'm thinking about a low-tech plastic-type box like this with a little bit of padding…



I'm not planning on throwing mine off of a highway overpass, like @Freeflap appears to be planning.  



bcowen said:


> I like that! You can even lock it to keep @Ripper2860 from pilfering.



Like that would stop me.  The carrying handle makes it quite convenient.  


*** Unrelated:  Got my Hifiman Ananda headphone in today.  Sounds wonderful -- and it ain't even broken-in yet!!


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Got my Hifiman Ananda headphone in today. Sounds wonderful -- and it ain't even broken-in yet!!


Did you ever audition HEXv2 - I wonder how they compare?


----------



## Zachik

Freeflap said:


> i was thinking something like this.... ?


This is what I am using:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076B72JT8/

I feel like it is *not* Pelican case level of quality, but price is OK and it fills its function...


----------



## ProfFalkin

Zachik said:


> This is what I am using:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076B72JT8/
> 
> I feel like it is *not* Pelican case level of quality, but price is OK and it fills its function...


I like that one.  Is it deep enough to put the tube directly in?  Or do you have to lay it flat?


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 20, 2018)

Zachik said:


> Did you ever audition HEXv2 - I wonder how they compare?



No.  Not any Hifiman dealers that I could find in my area so  a comp was not in the cards for me.  Reviews seem to state that the HEXv2 has a more laid back sound with a deeper, but less powerful bass.  Ananda is more energetic and upfront in the mids and a bit more air and detail.  The only real gripe I hear from reviews is that Ananda has a 8KHz bump that can grate on some folks that may be HF sensitive.  Sundara was supposedly plagued by the same flaw, but it never really bothered me.  If it ever does, heck, that's why Loki has an 8K dial to tweak.  

I got it for the deeper bass and increased slam over Sundara and the increased soundstage.  So far it is delivering on all fronts with more air around instruments and voice as well as a 3D/Holographic presentation with precise placement of instruments and voice.  I'm hearing details I never heard with Sundara or the HD6XX.  Ananda suits my listening preferences and type of music nicely!!


----------



## Freeflap

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm not planning on throwing mine off of a highway overpass, like @Freeflap appears to be planning.



If your case can't handle being thrown from a highway overpass, you must not REALLY care for your tubes... 

i was actually research this case to make a portable bluetooth boombox. My kids like to take music to the community pool. I've seen some DIY bluetooth boxes that sound amazing. Much better than store bought. Seems there is a cottage industry growing in the DIY bluetooth box. You can buy the parts from partsexpress. Here's an example. 

https://bumpboxx.com/

Sorry for the OFF topics. You can resume trolling and verbal abuse...


----------



## Zachik

ProfFalkin said:


> I like that one.  Is it deep enough to put the tube directly in?  Or do you have to lay it flat?


Tubes are lay flat. Inside their boxes.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 21, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> If your case can't handle being thrown from a highway overpass, you must not REALLY care for your tubes...
> 
> i was actually research this case to make a portable bluetooth boombox. My kids like to take music to the community pool. I've seen some DIY bluetooth boxes that sound amazing. Much better than store bought. Seems there is a cottage industry growing in the DIY bluetooth box. You can buy the parts from partsexpress. Here's an example.
> 
> ...



Maybe I should rethink the armored case thing as a hedge against wifey losing it after finding out how much $$$ I've spent on tubes!!   

A DIY Bluetooth boombox?  Interesting mix of high-tech and retro.  I like it!!


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Freeflap

Got the 7n7 burning in. So far interesting. Initially Midrange and treble were muted and a bit buzzy . Bass was clean. After a couple hours the treble and mids cleaned up  A lot .

Need to spend more time  but so far the 3 hole bb is still my favorite..


----------



## Wes S

Freeflap said:


> Got the 7n7 burning in. So far interesting. Initially Midrange and treble were muted and a bit buzzy . Bass was clean. After a couple hours the treble and mids cleaned up  A lot .
> 
> Need to spend more time  but so far the 3 hole bb is still my favorite..


Those Frankie tubes sure look cool!  Nice pic!


----------



## Freeflap

I am also giving the brimar 6sn7 black and orange base. 

Initial impressions are excellent Soundstage, detail, accuracy. Clean mid and treble. Not as sweet and singing treble and not as deep bass as the 3holebb.

Will do more listening tonight.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 21, 2018)

Did I miss the BOTCHED Leadership Council meeting where release of this information was approved?  Has this been properly vetted by our PR and Legal departments prior to release?  Must I remind you that you are not authorized to speak to the public re: BOTCHED Tube Research without approval of the Leadership Council?

You are a Hoarder and a Leaker!!


----------



## Wes S

I am following Ripper's lead, and I got me a killer pair of headphones, to pair with my, Lyr 3/ mimby/ real bad boy tube, the ZMF ORI!  I have reached my end game, and could not be happier!  Thanks for all the great info, in this thread and it's contributors!  I am going to give this forum a break, and get back to the music.  

Lyr 3 - Modi Multibit - Sylvania 3 hole plate/ bottom getter (real bad boy) - ZMF ORI - *END GAME*!  Bring on the tunes 

Peace, love and music!

Wes


----------



## Ripper2860

You'll be back.  They always come back!  


Seriously -- that's good.  I'm about there myself.  I will be rolling what I have in and out occasionally and will be here to help others (via sarcasm).  My acquisition cycle is almost complete -- as soon as I receive the additional 3-hole BB, I'm done.


----------



## Monahans67

Notice he gives himself an out.  "I'm ABOUT there".  Too funny. LOL


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## Ripper2860

You may be the chairman, but you're not the majority share holder.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## Freeflap

why leave? and miss the witty banter? the constant verbal insults? it's called entertainment in the name of tube amps. Let's be honest. Like the hotel california song, "you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"...


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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----------



## Monahans67

Ripper made a comment that he wouldn't put his tubes in a big lock case in fear his wife would find out how much he paid for them.  On one of the Gun Sites I go to a guy said his biggest fear in life is when he dies that his wife sells his guns for what he told her he paid for them.  I thought that was classic.  LOL


----------



## Ripper2860

Monahans67 said:


> Notice he gives himself an out. "I'm ABOUT there". Too funny. LOL



My rate of acquisition has slowed tremendously.  I'm settling on a few tubes that I really like and will ensure I have a backup/spares, but the search for the ONE KILLER TUBE' is over for me.  I'll buy what I know I like and that's it.  Gotta save for a Gumby, Jr., if one ever comes about.  

My Faves (in no particular order) …

Sylvie Bad Boy
Frankie
Sylvie 6SN7W (Tall and Short bottle)
Sylvie Chrome Dome
Westie D getter
Early 50's Foton (ribbed plates)


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

Dang Bill I would let her do whatever she wants to too.  WOWIZER.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 21, 2018)

bcowen said:


> I'm sleeping with the majority shareholder. She lets me do whatever I want.



That's my wife and she WAS to be the majority share holder after I die.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## Zachik

bcowen said:


> ROFLMAO!!!
> 
> I'm bookmarking this page for quick reference next month.


More like next week...


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 21, 2018)

bcowen said:


> So I've been bangin' your wife? Oops. Sorry, I guess.



Well, that explains why she's been so moody and unfulfilled lately.  



Zachik said:


> More like next week...



I'm on vaca next week, so likely next month.  

(I'll show you all.  I will not buy a 'new' tube -- only additional stock of my favs.)


*** Semi related note:  The Sylvie BB is giving Frankie a good run for the money.  OK -- maybe not the money given Frankie is usually like 1/5 the price.  BB has a warmer richer sound profile as compared to Frankie and while Frankie has a wider soundstage, it just sounds thinner.  BB has a more pronounced and deeper bass, with a more lush sound. Maybe the BB just pairs better with Ananda and Frankie paired better with Sundara.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860




----------



## Freeflap

FYI; schiit just released the modi3 dac in case anyone wants another dac. Interesting that it is essentially the same as the modi2 uber, but at 50 bucks less. 

Good for new buyers. Currently modi2 uber owners will be pissed. The resale value of their dac just took a dump. 

the modimultibit is the same price.  250. 

carry on with the wife swapping.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 21, 2018)

We are not 'wife swapping'...

My lovely wife is just 'slumming'.  



Freeflap said:


> FYI; schiit just released the modi3 dac in case anyone wants another dac. Interesting that it is essentially the same as the modi2 uber, but at 50 bucks less.



Yeah -- Schiit appears to be consolidating by replacing Modi 2 and Modi 2 Uber with a single product at Modi 2 price and Uber feature-set.  Much the same way they did Magni 2 and Magni 2 Uber with Magni 3.  Gotta love those Schiit guys!!  (Unless, like you said, one is trying to sell a used Uber, that is!!)


----------



## ProfFalkin

Wes S said:


> I am following Ripper's lead, and I got me a killer pair of headphones, to pair with my, Lyr 3/ mimby/ real bad boy tube, the ZMF ORI!  I have reached my end game, and could not be happier!  Thanks for all the great info, in this thread and it's contributors!  I am going to give this forum a break, and get back to the music.
> 
> Lyr 3 - Modi Multibit - Sylvania 3 hole plate/ bottom getter (real bad boy) - ZMF ORI - *END GAME*!  Bring on the tunes
> 
> ...


Loved my Ori.  Great headphone.  Congrats on endgame and enjoy the music!


----------



## Freeflap

Tonight, rolling the brimar. Wide Soundstage. Deep tight bass. Not as powerful in the bottom end as 3 hole bb, but close.

Mid and treble are really sweet. wide Soundstage. Not as "tubey" in the upper midrange compared to the bb, but more neutral. 

I think it's a really great tube. I don't think it is better or worse than the 3 hole bb. It's a great sounding tube with overall very musical clean and accurate presentation. No glaring flaws 

Given my short acoustic memory, I find it helpful to stick with one song during listening tests since it takes a couple minutes to switch out tubes..




I'm listening to Jeff goldblum mildred snitzer orchestra "cantaloupe Island" 

I've listened to this same song about 50 times in the last three days testing tubes.


----------



## Zachik

Love the glove treatment 
(although I would personally go for a white silk glove...)


----------



## Freeflap

Didn't want to leave greasy fingerprints on the tube. Am guessing that's a bad thing for tubes since they get pretty hot. Just like you shouldn't touch halogen bulbs since the oil causes them to burn hotter and won't last a long . 

Plus I'm just trying to look classy ..


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 21, 2018)

I always wipe my tubes down with a terricloth after inserting or removing them from Lyr 3.  I though it was just me being OCD.  


On a side note:   I'm just grateful there was not a jar of personal lubricant in the background on those images.


----------



## Freeflap

I cropped the images of course. all tube. no lube.


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## Ripper2860

BTW -- I'm off to sunny (hopefully) Destin, Florida for a much needed vacation.  While I am taking a laptop (us IT guys are never really off), I will not be posting as prodigiously as I normally do. 

FYI ... 

1. No, I'm not going away to an in-facility treatment center to deal with Tube Acquisition Syndrome
2. It's not the annual BOTCHED Leadership Conference.  @bcowen embezzled all of the conference funds, so it's cancelled for this year.

See y'all around!!


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## Freeflap

have a great vacation. Love Destin. great beaches and the food trucks are really good. enjoy!


----------



## Zachik

Freeflap said:


> Didn't want to leave greasy fingerprints on the tube. Am guessing that's a bad thing for tubes since they get pretty hot. Just like you shouldn't touch halogen bulbs since the oil causes them to burn hotter and won't last a long .
> 
> Plus I'm just trying to look classy ..


It does look classy, but not nearly as classy as mickey mouse white gloves  



Ripper2860 said:


> I always wipe my tubes down with a terricloth after inserting or removing them from Lyr 3. I though it was just me being OCD.


Actually, I use a little cotton towel myself... we're all OCD here...


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> I'm not. I put little condoms on mine when I first get them. Greatly reduces the risk of them getting any STD (Serious Tube Dirt).


TMI

Have a great vacation Ripper!

That Brimbar tube looks interesting.  I might have to try one out.


----------



## buonassi

Freeflap said:


> I cropped the images of course. all tube. no lube.



great post.  And to add to tonight's sex references, I leave you with some nice soft tube porn.  Check out the filaments on this hottie!:


 

it may not be the end game in sound, but it's a good all rounder and the best looking tube I have (with the riser of course).


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## FLTWS (Sep 22, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> Tonight, rolling the brimar. Wide Soundstage. Deep tight bass. Not as powerful in the bottom end as 3 hole bb, but close.
> 
> Mid and treble are really sweet. wide Soundstage. Not as "tubey" in the upper midrange compared to the bb, but more neutral.
> 
> ...



I always use latex gloves, they grip the tube like a fly can grip the ceiling and leave no body oils on the glass or base, although I've read that it may not be necessary, I do it just "because".
Considering all the money and trouble I go thru to get these a slip of the fingers that destroys a tube would make me go full on "Hulk".
I've had 9 trigger finger surgery's over the past 7 years or so and scar tissue plus arthritis makes for a reduction of finger dexterity so I can't be too cautious.
I usually clean and inspect the glass, base, and pins on purchase / arrival. From then on I just address whether the pins could use a cleaning (thanks to the gloves). Just the act of inserting / removing a tube creates friction between the metal of the pins and socket sleeves that "cleans" a bit.
If I lived in a smokey or overly dusty environment, which I don't, more regular maintenance might be a consideration.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

ProfFalkin said:


> That Brimbar tube looks interesting. I might have to try one out.



I'd like to hear your thoughts. This particular example I was told is the brimar to get. The key aspect is the black base with orange lettering. 

*Brimar 6SN7GT (UK) version 2*
_This tube came next chronologically and differs from earlier examples by not having anode plate extensions on the top mica and having a differently shaped getter holder. No black glass examples of this tube have been yet found by the thread author._
Base: black with printing, printing may be reddish-orange
Glass: clear 
Plates: grey, ‘flattened oval’ cross section
Getter: bottom, rectangular getter holder, flashing does not extend past base 
Top mica: round with spiked edges, spikes contact glass
Other significant features: bottom mica round with smooth edges

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/

this link has an excellent catalog description of virtually every 6sn7 tube.


----------



## ilikepooters

Freeflap said:


> I'd like to hear your thoughts. This particular example I was told is the brimar to get. The key aspect is the black base with orange lettering.
> 
> *Brimar 6SN7GT (UK) version 2*
> _This tube came next chronologically and differs from earlier examples by not having anode plate extensions on the top mica and having a differently shaped getter holder. No black glass examples of this tube have been yet found by the thread author._
> ...




Reminded me that i've been meaning to get a Brimar black glass for ages.

Just found a good example of a black glass with micanol (brown) base that tests 112% both sections so snapped it up.


Hopefully it's a nice sounding tube


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

adhoc said:


> *Brimar 6SN7GT (UK) version 2*
> _This tube came next chronologically and differs from earlier examples by not having anode plate extensions on the top mica and having a differently shaped getter holder. No black glass examples of this tube have been yet found by the thread author._
> Base: black with printing, printing may be reddish-orange
> Glass: clear
> ...





bcowen said:


> And I blame you, @Freeflap for making me look at Brimar's this morning.



You're welcome!! 

when i'm listening, i will go back and forth from the lyr3 to my jds element. why? yes, it's solid state. but a very clean and decent solid state amp/dac. both are hooked up to my laptop so i can switch very quickly, like 5-10 secs. 
it allows me to replay the exact same passage and make sure what i'm hearing is real and not "emperor's new clothes" syndrome. so the greater difference improvement i can hear with tube xyz vs the jds the more reliable my impressions are. 

the jds serves as a known control. obviously it would be better to have 2 lyr3, but that's not going to slip under the wife radar! 

going back and forth quickly helps to eliminate the variable of my own short acoustical memory. Using the exact same song everytime is also helpful, if not a bit monotonous and boring. 

how are the rest of you doing your own testing?


----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> Ebay ads can be so entertaining.  "May or may not work well."  LOL!  Said another way: 'May or may not blow up your amp, but there's a real good chance it will.'
> 
> I hope somebody jumps on this before it gets away.  I mean where else can you fork over $60 to barbeque your Lyr?
> 
> ...




Brimar had a factory in Russia? Who'd have known! Must be rarer than the black glass


----------



## Th3Drizzl3 (Sep 22, 2018)

Dang it now I'm on the lookout for a brimar also. Shakes fists......got my 2 3 hole bb's a few minutes ago now to start a burn in. These are supposedly nos but the printing is very light hmm wonder about them being nos........


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

@bcowen - the latter is equivalent of 6SL7 (not 6SN7)... I believe not compatible with Lyr 3 ?


----------



## Zachik

buonassi said:


> great post.  And to add to tonight's sex references, I leave you with some nice soft tube porn.  Check out the filaments on this hottie!:
> 
> 
> 
> it may not be the end game in sound, but it's a good all rounder and the best looking tube I have (with the riser of course).


Is that the Psvane? or something else?
I agree it LOOKS much better than 6SN7 (or even Frankie for that matter...)


----------



## Freeflap

Yes the psvane look very cool. It gets a lot of positive impressions. My only hesitancy is that some owners have had dead tubes after a year or so.
Whereas the old stuff Sylvania bb and 7n7 will last reliably for years?


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Feeling a bit dirty now, payed for a Chinese tube. Have resisted for this long but thought i'd give it a go.

Bought a Shuguang CV181-Z black treasure after reading some favourable impressions. Just got to wait for the slow boat from china.







Also read that it draws 900mA heater current so have emailed Schiit to make sure Lyr 3 can handle it.


----------



## buonassi

Freeflap said:


> how are the rest of you doing your own testing?


I do something similar.  My DAC has a headphone out that is a very clean solid state - actually, it's not really an amp at all - it's more like plugging directly into the internal voltage of the DACs analogue section (with an impedance converter and attenuator).  So it's very clean.  It has become my baseline over the past few months which allows me to pick out sonic traits of tubes.  Same as you, I have a very short audio memory and need to switch within 10 seconds or so if I want to catch minute differences.

The best part about doing it this way is that you you take notes on how a tube sounds vs "a known quantity", in my case the Metrum DAC I have.  Then you compare the notes to understand how one tube differs from another.

The tradeoff here is that I don't get a direct comparison between tubes.  It's always an intermediary step and inference that must be made.  Sometimes, I still get that wow factor when going straight from one tube to another and I ask myself if I should be comparing tubes this way.  I usually keep a tube in for over a week.  I just don't like the idea of wear and tear on the socket.  I realize the socket can be retentioned, but I'm not sure I could even get this damn lid off!


----------



## buonassi (Sep 22, 2018)

Zachik said:


> Is that the Psvane? or something else?
> I agree it LOOKS much better than 6SN7 (or even Frankie for that matter...)


That's a Northern Electric 6sn7 that goes for $80.  I paid 60 and will gladly sell it for the same.  Less that 300 hours on it as a safe assumption between first owner and my usage.

Identical to the TJ full music 6sn7 that was popular a while back. Supposedly from what I read that is.  At least visually external and internals appear to be identical .

It's good, but does nothing extraordinary. Full and warm, not overly so. Delicate behaved treble. Not a lot of harmonic distortion so somewhat solid state sounding. Very black background with no microphonics depite audibly rattling when you shake it gently next to your ear .

It's the woman you marry, not the one you fantasize about.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

buonassi said:


> It's the woman you marry, not the one you fantasize about.



um... so that's probably not the best analogy.  I was speaking about sonic traits - not visual.  Dock buonassi 10 likes for confusing metaphor and double yearly dues for the 2019 BOTCHED membership


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## buonassi (Sep 22, 2018)

bcowen said:


> provide us a big hole.


besides that sounding weird AF, that answers my next question....  I was just wondering if that could be the case.

edit:  again, confusing choice of words.  "could be the case" what I meant was "could be accessed without removing the lid (case)".


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

I'm finding that I am intolerant of a poor recording. Even if I love the music and the artist. Limitations on the technology of the day, storage media, recording fidelity, etc... All make for an un-enjoyable experience. 
Example, I've always enjoyed the Eagles. One the greatest bands imo. However, when i go back to listen, even the remastered stuff, the dynamics are flat, the bass is all but absent. Reminds me of the day I sat in the back seat of the family station wagon listening to 8-track. Ugh. 

Same with good classical music. Some of the best virtuoso artists in the last century have some of the worst recordings. Itzhak Perlman violin recordings from the 80s . I know that sounds bad, but they are so bad. I find that I am seeking music recorded this decade, if not just 2018. 
The difference in sound quality is just so dramatic and obvious. You only have to listen for 5 seconds to tell the difference.  The "worst" tube I currently own, the original tungsol ( which isn't that bad really) sounds better than all these old recordings combined. 

They say in any system, you are only as good as your weakest link. Rather than constantly seeking the next vintage uber tube, should we be seeking better music?


----------



## buonassi (Sep 23, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> I'm finding that I am intolerant of a poor recording. Even if I love the music and the artist



This is the #1 sign you are an authentic audiophile.  Welcome to audio nervosa!  I suggest an SSRI to help with the OCD that will soon ensue.



Freeflap said:


> They say in any system, you are only as good as your weakest link. Rather than constantly seeking the next vintage uber tube, should we be seeking better music?



my audiophile 'sensibilities' would also add to that:  a better transport, better cables, and better power sources

joking aside - yes music production capabilities are the best they've ever been.  Digital consoles in recording studios (and resampling tech to get the final cut over to redbook) are now acceptable - where as in the 90s really struggled and clearly sounded 'digital'.  

Unfortunately, the better your system gets, the worse off bad recordings will sound - BUT at the same time, the better good recordings will sound.  So I'm with you - always on the hunt for sonic juggernauts. I can rec some albums that have left me catatonic they sound so amazing.  Mainly prog rock / metal, sorry if that's not your thing.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

@bcowen 
@buonassi 

agreed. initially i was pretty excited about hdtracks. however, the music catalog was not exciting, regardless of how well recorded. 

it's a shame that so much great music recorded in the last half of the 20th century was recorded on equipment that is dramatically worse than what we have today in almost all aspects. 

side note:

i'm rotation right now between the brimar, 3holebadboy, and 7n7. I have to say, i prefer the 3hole and brimar over the 7n7. maybe it's my particular 7n7, but it has some coloration that is more noticeable. it is creamy smooth in the midbass and treble, but the treble doesn't sing and isn't as airy as i've been led to believe. 

the brimar is very neutral. the 3hole is more exciting. perhaps the stronger bass and open treble are more enjoyable to me. not sure. 

i did a semi blind test. had my daughter listen to my jds and then the 3hole. same song about 30 sec clip. listened 3 times each. she liked the "silver" box better. why? she couldnt say way. just liked it better. interestingly, my jds has stronger bass output than any of my tubes. i guess that's why a majority of bass players prefer solid state amps, whereas guitar players seem to prefer tubes. Able to generate more output at lower frequencies?

the lyr3 does a better job producing a immersive sound experience. the soundstage is wider and seems to come from around your head. The mid and treble are a bit sweeter and less etchy.

i realize the lyr 3 is a hybrid, but there is a distinct difference in bass output. anyone else notice that?


----------



## Freeflap

Badboy looks so small compared to the psvane!


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap (Sep 23, 2018)

@bcowen
good point. However, the jds has an output impedance of 0.1ohm. the lyr3 is 0.3 ohm. 3x the difference even though it is a very small difference.

http://eaw.com/amplifier-damping-factor-more-is-better-or-is-it/

also, it seems the lyr3 has higher output impedance in high gain mode. that means worse damping factor. not sure i can hear that, but the 3x difference in damping between the jds and the lyr is definitely audible to me. in my case, i hear it as deeper bass from the jds


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Freeflap

@bcowen 
congrats. i bought my 3hole badboys from the same seller ( i recognize the pics). he is also the one who recommended the brimar. enjoy!


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## earnmyturns

For any jazz-heads out there in Lyr 3-land, this new release is recommended with your morning coffee for the best waking up.


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## Freeflap

bcowen said:


> I'm still blaming you for the Brimar. A few hours left to go in _that_ auction.



just make sure it's the black base with orange lettering... enjoy!


----------



## buonassi

Freeflap said:


> initially i was pretty excited about hdtracks. however, the music catalog was not exciting, regardless of how well recorded



Ditto. For what it’s worth I find that the better your system gets with respect to digital play back, the less high definition tracks will matter. I am just as happy with red book these days.



Freeflap said:


> she liked the "silver" box better.



That’s just funny!



Freeflap said:


> the lyr3 is 0.3 ohm.



 Damping factor is a byproduct of the amps output impedance and the headphones impedance, more precisely the difference between the two. Yes the Lyr three has three times the output impedance, but if you are talking about a 150 ohm Sennheiser it’s being driven into, that won’t have an effect. 0.3 ohm is considered very low. Even with 16 ohm iems it’s low.  There are diminishing returns with damping factor. Provided your headphones are eight times the impedance of the amplifier, that’s about as good as it gets.

 There are other factors besides output impedance that determine how well an amplifier can control a driver. Slew rate is another big one and is often not published by amplifier manufacturers. This is the voltage swing, more precisely how quickly the voltage can ramp up within each millisecond. The higher the slew the faster And more instantaneous the voltage being delivered to the headphone  is. Something with a higher slew rate will have a very tight and punchy bass usually.  My arcam rhead is a great example of this. It wiped the floor with the Asgard 2 it replaced.   Violectric and lake people are other high slew low OI amps. They actually publish their slew rate.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Freeflap

buonassi said:


> Damping factor is a byproduct of the amps output impedance and the headphones impedance, more precisely the difference between the two



according to this, i think it is a ratio of output impedance and headphone impedance, not the summation / difference? 

if the formula is the difference, i would agree; it's a trivial difference. however, if it's a ratio ( hp on top, amp on the bottom ) then the ratio still would predict a 3x difference in damping regardless of headphone impedance, assuming the wire resistance is nomimal. 

agree that slew rate helps with sharpness. the greater the slew, the better the attack leading edge of the music. my ht amp is an ATI. love it, but have never used a preamp that had balanced outputs. with balanced outputs, the dual differential function comes into full play. two key benefits are a doubling of the slew rate, and a halfing in input voltage that allows the transitors to work inside their linear response. or so the manufacturer claims...

https://www.ati-amp.com/differential_drive_amplifier.php

Am using a Yamaha receiver as the prepro, but it has rca outputs only. Once it "dies" i can think about getting a prepro with true balanced outputs to take advantage of my amps features. am looking at the emotiva xmc1 or the new yamaha cxa5200. 

sorry off topic.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

dang it i still cant find a frankie lol


----------



## ProfFalkin

Th3Drizzl3 said:


> dang it i still cant find a frankie lol


Want one + adapter?


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## Th3Drizzl3

ProfFalkin said:


> Want one + adapter?


def looking for one. lmk


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## Freeflap

ProfFalkin said:


> Want one + adapter?



Reading between the lines: If the Professor is selling not only the 7n7, but also the adapter, does that mean @ProfFalkin doesn't care for the 7n7? or just has an extra adapter? 

My personal impression is that the 7n7 is good, but the 3hole and the brimar are better. Just my worthless opinion so far, but to be honest, i need to give the 7n7 some more listening time.


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## FLTWS

Freeflap said:


> Reading between the lines: If the Professor is selling not only the 7n7, but also the adapter, does that mean @ProfFalkin doesn't care for the 7n7? or just has an extra adapter?
> 
> My personal impression is that the 7n7 is good, but the 3hole and the brimar are better. Just my worthless opinion so far, but to be honest, i need to give the 7n7 some more listening time.



Inquiring minds want to know?


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## ProfFalkin (Sep 24, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> Reading between the lines: If the Professor is selling not only the 7n7, but also the adapter, does that mean @ProfFalkin doesn't care for the 7n7? or just has an extra adapter?
> 
> My personal impression is that the 7n7 is good, but the 3hole and the brimar are better. Just my worthless opinion so far, but to be honest, i need to give the 7n7 some more listening time.


No.  I just spent close to $2000 fixing my car from an encounter with nasty pothole last Friday.   I'm preparing other things for sale too.   I like the tube, just not as much as the WH-d, so I'm willing to let it go.


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## ProfFalkin

Shameless plug for my sale of Lyr 3 tubes.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 24, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Ended up buying this instead.....for $10.
> 
> Really nice picture to be sure, and the only one in the ad.
> 
> ...



You, sir are a Hoarding Brick Shed!


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## Freeflap

in case someone is interested in mr speakers ether closed headphones, this was just announced. :

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdr...leCampaignId=401992&iterableTemplateId=575456

it's exciting since it's 1/2 the price of his regular ether c closed headphones. Not sure what the differences are. I'm guessing they are more subtle differences than dramatic.


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## ProfFalkin

Freeflap said:


> in case someone is interested in mr speakers ether closed headphones, this was just announced. :
> 
> https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdr...leCampaignId=401992&iterableTemplateId=575456
> 
> it's exciting since it's 1/2 the price of his regular ether c closed headphones. Not sure what the differences are. I'm guessing they are more subtle differences than dramatic.


I have a feeling Mr. Speakers is trying to blow out their non-Flow versions of the Ether.   I can't remember which version I heard, but it wasn't all that good for the $.   Not that that helps at all.


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## Freeflap

I wondered why some of these companies would offer a mass drop version of something they already sell for much cheaper unless it was somehow a lower grade product . 

Perhaps this is the preflow inventory they are trying to clean out as you suggested?


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## earnmyturns

Freeflap said:


> I wondered why some of these companies would offer a mass drop version of something they already sell for much cheaper unless it was somehow a lower grade product .
> 
> Perhaps this is the preflow inventory they are trying to clean out as you suggested?


Closing down non-Flow is my guess. The MrSpeakers site only shows refurbished non-Flows, not new ones.


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## Freeflap (Sep 25, 2018)

@ProfFalkin sorry about the car. That's never fun

Question = what volume are you typically listening to? I'm around low gain with the marker on the volume wheel right at noon.

Interestingly  when I go back and forth from the jds, also set at low gain around noon (50% mark) the jds sounds louder. This is not very scientific I admit, but given that the lyr 3 puts out 6 watts and the jds puts out 1.1 watts at 32 ohms, that just seems wrong. The lyr should be noticeably louder

I have the built in multibit. Someone noted that the multibit card has lower voltage output to the amp section vs an external dac. Is that true? Seems that would have the effect of reducing the amps power by feeding it lower voltage??


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## ProfFalkin

Freeflap said:


> @ProfFalkin sorry about the car. That's never fun
> 
> Question = what volume are you typically listening to? I'm around low gain with the marker on the volume wheel right at noon.
> 
> ...


I'm on high gain at 9 o'clock.

Yes, I think the internal multi-bit card uses 1.5 volt to the amplifier.   The volume is the same on the multi bit card as it was on a base Modi 2 I borrowed, which is also 1.5v out.   The Modi 2 MB (which is what I use) is 2V, and is louder at the same volume knob setting.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## Freeflap

bcowen said:


> Is that question directed specifically at the Perfesser or to the thread in general?  Don't want to barge in....
> 
> And what's with the silver twist cable for the Aeon's? Better than the Dummer cable?  I remember you were very pleased with the cable upgrade on the M1060's....same thing goin' on with the Aeon's cable?



open question. wanted to see what everyone's experience is like. 

when i bought the ether flow ( i don't have aeon's. sorry if i might have suggested that in earlier posts) , i didn't love them. i was a bit disappointed. the treble seemed closed and recessed. they sounded more like a pair of closed headphones vs open headphones. when i upgraded the m1060 cables, i was pleased with the openness and improved treble. I thought this silver twist cable would do the same. the silver is a nice upgrade. more open soundstage and brighter mids and trebles. definitely better than the stock dummer cables. don't know about the upgrade dum cables. haven't tried those. 

 I also removed the inner white filter. that helped a lot too. Guess i like that open sound more. now, am loving these ether flows. On the headphone forum, the owner of mr speaker, dan clark was posting info about some pad upgrades / options to open up the sound more. most reviewers seem to think the ether flow is already quite bright, but i never had that impression. 
my m1060 are in contrast very bright, probably too much so with weak bass response. the lcd 2 are great too. there is a bit of midrange bloom warmth that is a little unnatural. otherwise it's a great pair of heaphones.

My only regret with the twisted silver: the shielding is somewhat hard plastic and has microphonics when the cable rubs on the table or chair. also, the end connector is somewhat positional. not sure what i did to it. i might take it apart and resolder the ends for a more secure electrical connection. found them on the 'bay.


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## buonassi

Freeflap said:


> This is not very scientific I admit, but given that the lyr 3 puts out 6 watts and the jds puts out 1.1 watts at 32 pounds, that just seems wrong. The lyr should be noticeably louder



9 watts is no joke and it's there.  did you notice the significant dB increase high gain has over low?  It's pretty substantial and isn't usually that high of a difference with other amps I've used.  This amp has juevos amigo. 

remember, that for each 10 db increase in volume, 10 times the power is required and the sound is "perceived" as twice as loud.  so the Lyr 3 is capable of roughly 10db louder than your JDS or "twice as loud". 

This is getting fun - curious what cans you're using?  Let's play the 'what if' game.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Freeflap

interesting. I was contemplating trying to fix the cable myself. how did you build your cable? where did you get the mr speakers connectors? they seem hard to find. I am contemplating building some cables myself. Always enjoy a DIY project. Plus the cost savings are huge. 

don't like the aeons or ethers? 

Yes, i know my assessment is far from scientific. it's just that i had assumed the lyr3 would overpower the jds anywhere near similar volume dial settings and it doesn't. perhaps the jds internal dac puts out higher voltage than the built in multibit in the lyr3, hence the apparent volume disparity. made me start to question whether or not my lyr is working correctly. i have no way to test output voltage. any suggestions?


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## Freeflap

buonassi said:


> This is getting fun - curious what cans you're using? Let's play the 'what if' game.



ether flow, audeze lcd2 and m1060 monoprice. probably will sell the monoprice. don't use them much anymore. looking at some closed cans perhaps for my son in college.


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## Freeflap

tube du jour. Tonight I will be listening to this .A 2 hole Sylvania 6sn7gt bad boy.  Just getting warmed up  but already this is an incredible tube. Extremely dynamic. Powerful bass. It just oozes power!
I don't recall the 3 hole or the brimar creating this kind of power. Will have to do more back and forth.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## buonassi

Freeflap said:


> ether flow, audeze lcd2 and m1060 monoprice. probably will sell the monoprice. don't use them much anymore. looking at some closed cans perhaps for my son in college.



Let's use the ether flows.  They require just over 1 mW of power to reach 90 db at the ear.  1.08 mW according to Tyll's measurement rig.  At 1080 mW, or just over 1 watt, you're at 120 db at the ear.   1 solid minute of listening at this loudness will result in some form of permanent hearing damage.  How severely depends on many factors, but you get the point.  

The lyr will drive the ether flows to almost 130 decibels.  Suffice it to say, you really don't want your kids playing with knobs in this case. 

Really, the takeaway from this post is that there is less than 10 db loudness gap (all other factors held constant) between your two amps.  9 watts seems like a lot, until you realize that 10x the power is required for a  10 db gain.  Then 9 watts doesn't seem like so much, until you experience 130 dbs for half a second 'accidentally' (usually a child is involved).  Then you'd be wishing your amp only topped out at ear bleeding levels, instead of they lyr's brain melting levels.  

gotta love the logarithmic nature of power, huh?


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## Freeflap (Sep 25, 2018)

@buonassi so true. forgot about the db / log issue. Just was looking at 9 watt vs 1 watt. jds makes a big deal about never needing more power than 1 watt for headphones.

i remember with loudspeakers, the rule of 3 db = double power. guess same applies here. NAD used to make a big deal about headroom with their amps. Even if the amp was nominally rated at 40 watts, it could hit peaks of 160 watts to handle the transient loud spike in the music even if the average listening level was only using 5-10 watts of juice.


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## earnmyturns

buonassi said:


> Let's use the ether flows.  They require just over 1 mW of power to reach 90 db at the ear.  1.08 mW according to Tyll's measurement rig.  At 1080 mW, or just over 1 watt, you're at 120 db at the ear.   1 solid minute of listening at this loudness will result in some form of permanent hearing damage.  How severely depends on many factors, but you get the point.
> 
> The lyr will drive the ether flows to almost 130 decibels.  Suffice it to say, you really don't want your kids playing with knobs in this case.
> 
> ...


No kidding. I have my Lyr 3 in high gain, Ether C Flows. 10am on the volume is as much as I'm comfortable with.


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## chef8489

earnmyturns said:


> No kidding. I have my Lyr 3 in high gain, Ether C Flows. 10am on the volume is as much as I'm comfortable with.


That's about all I can get in my lcd2c as well.


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## Freeflap

after several hours of listening, the 2 hole sylvania bad boy is a keeper. dynamic, powerful musical. Going back and forth from the jds, it just more musical and involving. 

here's a suggestion: i found a local vintage tv / radio / museum. they collect and sell vacuum tubes. If you have one near you , i suggest you call them to see if they have any 6sn7 for sale. the 2 hole i received is from them. I have a couple  7n7 franken also. they are USED not NOS. i will likely keep one and sell off the others. I also have 4 sylvania 6sn7gtb. they are not badboys, but frankly, also sound pretty darn good. Will do some more listening to them tonight. I am surprised at how good they sound, being that they are not true badboy sylvanias. i have one westinghouse with a top halo getter. haven't listened to that one yet.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 26, 2018)

Gotta say - I've never met a Sylvania tube that I hated.  Liked them all to varying degrees.

6SN7GT 2 hole and 3 hole are strong and a flip of the coin as to which is better in my rig.

6SN7GTA chrome domes are wonderful

6SN7W is to die for

VT-231 is nicely balanced

6SN7WGTA well balanced with nice mids and soundstage


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## 441879

Freeflap said:


> after several hours of listening, the 2 hole sylvania bad boy is a keeper. dynamic, powerful musical. Going back and forth from the jds, it just more musical and involving.
> 
> here's a suggestion: i found a local vintage tv / radio / museum. they collect and sell vacuum tubes. If you have one near you , i suggest you call them to see if they have any 6sn7 for sale. the 2 hole i received is from them. I have a couple  7n7 franken also. they are USED not NOS. i will likely keep one and sell off the others. I also have 4 sylvania 6sn7gtb. they are not badboys, but frankly, also sound pretty darn good. Will do some more listening to them tonight. I am surprised at how good they sound, being that they are not true badboy sylvanias. i have one westinghouse with a top halo getter. haven't listened to that one yet.



My experience with the two hole B.B. is the same. A very engaging and musical tube. Definitely my favorite in my limited collection.


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## FLTWS

will f said:


> My experience with the two hole B.B. is the same. A very engaging and musical tube. Definitely my favorite in my limited collection.



I've only got one, maybe I should start stocking up? LOL!


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## 441879

FLTWS said:


> I've only got one, maybe I should start stocking up? LOL!



I’ve thought the same thing.


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## Freeflap

I would say that the regular sylvania 6sn7gtb are darn good too. I will go back and do more listening tonight. I'll take a pic too. not sure of the vintage. it is very clean and dynamic. maybe not quite as strong in the bass as the badboy, but am not 100% sure of that. I have no way to do immediate a/b comparison. Between turning off the lyr, waiting for it to cool down, switch tubes, turn it on, wait for the lyr to warm back up.... that's probably 15-20 minutes between tubes. Too long for accurate acoustical memory in my case. So what i try to do, right or wrong, is to listen to ONE distinct passage in music. A drum roll, a guitar line, two words sung by the lead. study the exact character of the sound (desperately try to commit that to memory) and then play it again with the other tube. 
any section of music longer than 5 sec is a waste. I cannot remember exactly how it sounded other than a generalization seat of the pants, gut impression. I think that's not very accurate unfortunately. So someone here is going to have to will me his lyr3 when he dies.... in the name of science so i can do a more accurate a/b test.


----------



## ilikepooters

Brimar black glass is impressive. I've got the brown micanol base version made in '58.


Needs some burning in but on first listen seems impressive.

There's an overall softness to the presentation, king of like a silk sheet draped over the music, maybe this is the much liked "tube sound" we hear of. Presents the treble as very organic/natural sounding. Mids are beautifully liquid. Bass has real heft, this tube is warm.

Waiting for the soundstage to open up, has the same spaciousness as a '53 foton at the moment, not quite as open as Westinghouse D or Raytheon WGT.


Hopefully some burn in will improve it.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Monahans67

Use 2 of those fingers to really make a point. Lol


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## earnmyturns

Brought back the Ken Rad VT-231 to give the Psvane 6SN7-SE a rest, just for variety. First return impressions is that the Ken Rad has a low-mid tilt relative to the Psvane, and sounds overall more "distant," less assertive, even in the lows. OTOH, there's a bit more instrument separation, at least in these tracks (not for the faint of heart: https://www.allaboutjazz.com/paimon...ary-halvorson-tzadik-review-by-don-phipps.php). I hear why I liked it, but I'm also hearing why I may go back to the Psvane.


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## ProfFalkin

WH-D on eBay.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 27, 2018)

I never said they were better.  I said Frankie was close to or the same as the Tallboy W.  If you felt the need to verify, that's on you, buddy. 

And I've never paid more that $60 for any W tube - sucker!  

I'll take them both for $90.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860

So $90 is good then?


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Zachik

bcowen said:


> I suppose.  Just add $210 for testing, blessing, handling, and shipping. Fondling is extra.


I don't think @Ripper2860 need any help with the fondling part...


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## Ripper2860

No adapter needed so no fondling required. Besides, I have my own patented fondling process.


----------



## Rowethren

bcowen said:


> The best ones (to my ear) are the ribbed plate early 50's versions. The non-ribbed late 50's are very good too, but not quite as good. The 60's are a step down from both.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8...173507?hash=item238a3dfc83:g:xmAAAOSwjpRavJ8e
> 
> I've bought several from the seller linked above with no issues. Be prepared for a 100 hour break-in routine though. The sound will be pretty thin, screechy, and bass-less initially, then improve quite a bit, then reverse course and sound hashy and coarse, then start to sound really good for a while, then go to crap again. Seems that once the 100 hour threshold is crossed they stabilize and continue to sound good.



I thought I would start pre reading this thread in preparation for purchasing a Lyr 3 with a Multibit card the office. Got to this post and clicked the link out of interest considering the overall positive feedback on the Foton...

ONLY 1 LEFT!! 

Ah what the hell they are cheap so I ordered the last one. I haven't even ordered my Lyr 3 yet. You people are incorrigible!


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## ProfFalkin

Incorrigible?  Us?  No...   

I would like to point out, for the sake of accuracy, that some of us are very corrigible.  Others unincorrigible.   I believe Bcowen to be antiuncorrigible.


----------



## Rowethren

Well I just spent almost a day solid reading this entire thread... I guess I need a Sylvaniay 3 Hole Bad Boy to go with the Foton and I "should" be done for tubes. My Lyr 3 will now arrive tomorrow 

I did find this which looks right from what you have all said but £50 for shipping to the UK is nuts lol so that is a hard pass!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...angyBang-Tubes-/401595023521?oid=392121339715


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Freeflap

can you be bi-corrigible? transcorrigible? corrigible-phobic?


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## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Just a word of caution: do not buy from BangyBangTubes (or Menifee Audio, same entity). One of the most prolific re-labelers out there. More detail if you want it over in the Schiit Lyr Tube Rollers thread, which will take you probably 3 solid days to read through.
> 
> For the Bad Boy, you might want to check with Brent Jesse and see if he has anything. You'll pay a bit more than Ebay, but his prices are still very reasonable and you'll get the real thing that's been tested.
> 
> ...


I second this.  Call him and see what Brent has.


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## Rowethren (Sep 28, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Just a word of caution: do not buy from BangyBangTubes (or Menifee Audio, same entity). One of the most prolific re-labelers out there. More detail if you want it over in the Schiit Lyr Tube Rollers thread, which will take you probably 3 solid days to read through.
> 
> For the Bad Boy, you might want to check with Brent Jesse and see if he has anything. You'll pay a bit more than Ebay, but his prices are still very reasonable and you'll get the real thing that's been tested.
> 
> ...



I did read up to date on the Lyr thread when I had one before and used it a bit when I was looking at tubes for my Mjolnir 2 but that was around 2 years ago so it probably has about 4 times the number of pages now...

If he has a bad reputation I will steer clear of him thanks for the advise. I will see what Brent has to say probably via email though as I am in the UK so calling will cost a fortune! Tubes are so much easier to obtain in the USA 

I like bass so I suspect the Bad Boy 3 hole will be my end game and the Foton will be my variety is the spice of life option  (without becoming a hoarder)


----------



## ilikepooters

Decided to try a bit of my own frankentubing 


Managed to snag a matched NOS pair of (British) Osram L63's for about £110. x2 of are equivalent to a B65 which go for insane amounts. Will look weird with the adaptor but it means i can get an idea of what a B65 sounds like for next to peanuts 

Also bought a used Brimar orange label 6SN7 GT for cheap to see how it compares to the black glass.


Interesting times ahead


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## earnmyturns

bcowen said:


> For the Bad Boy, you might want to check with Brent Jesse and see if he has anything


He has no 3-hole Bad Boys, checked a couple of days ago. Ordered a 2-hole early 50s ($55) to round out my small collection. Right now, the Psvane 6SN7-SE is at top of the leaderboard. Compared with it, the1944 Ken-Rad VT-231 that had dethroned the Schiit-supplied Tung-Sol sounds a bit muffled, distant, although it has a very nice balance and instrument separation. All of this is with my particular source (NOS Holo Spring DAC) and headphones (MrSpeakers Ether C Flow), possible that it would be different with other source and transducers.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 28, 2018)

Well, that's a first.  I've been called many things -- suave, handsome, debonair, masterful in the art of love making, etc., but never incorrigible.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## ProfFalkin

I'll be damned if I'm going to buy a fart.   Nope.  Not gonna do it.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860

I already own 2 Farts as part of multi-tube acquisitions to get the tall glass FTs.


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## Freeflap

bcowen said:


> Not like I need an excuse to go buy more adapters and tubes, but @Freeflap does.



What? I don't need an excuse. I just follow you, boss.


Tonights tube du jour: finishing up with the sylvania gtb tube. tomorrow: franken!


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, that's a first. * I've been called many things* -- suave, handsome, debonair, masterful in the art of love making, etc., but never incorrigible.


I bet "modest" was not one of them...


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> You're obviously still on vacation at Fantasyland.



And I may never leave!


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## Ripper2860 (Sep 28, 2018)

Zachik said:


> I bet "modest" was not one of them...



Ok.  Incorrigible and modest are two things I've never been called before.  Honest, truthful, factual and AWESOME do come to mind, however.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> You forgot deluded.
> 
> Hope this helps.



If deluded is the same as under the influence of Mojitos, then yes!


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## ProfFalkin

Did someone say dilaudid?   That's my favo... Oh, deluded.  Never mind.


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## Rowethren

Some serious banter on this thread


----------



## Freeflap

My regular non bad boy Sylvania gtb on a socket saver  Not sure how this saves my socket, but it make taking pics better at the tube isn't half buried. 

It's an inexpensive nice tube all around. Neutral. Decent sound stage. Mids are a little dry. Not juicy and rich tube sounding, but not bad either. 

Better than the stock tungsol and good for casual listening when you might not want to burn hours on your premium tubes....

Going to try Franken next


----------



## Ripper2860

Freeflap said:


> Not sure how this saves my socket, but it make taking pics better at the tube isn't half buried.



In your Lyr 3, I hope.


----------



## Freeflap

Ripper2860 said:


> In your Lyr 3, I hope.



oh. that makes sense. it was a little uncomfortable at first. Guess i should wash it....


----------



## earnmyturns

Super-fun straight-ahead jazz guitar quartet: John Scofield's Combo 66 just out on Verve, hi-res digital downloads on the usual places. Perfect for your weekend upbeat Lyr 3 listening pleasure. Sample:


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## rgmffn

I follow and enjoy this thread but I've only posted a couple comments. I've been trying to get a WH D-getter for awhile now but someone here, most likely, always beats me to it. Lol I found a new listing for one a few minutes ago so I jumped on it. I was stoked at the time to even find it. So here's hoping it's ... good. I have a yr 61 O-getter that sounds amazing. I'm hoping this will sound even better.  I love my early Fotons too!  They are slightly warmer to me with more weight to the bass. 

This was the listing and the only pic. When viewing it in actual size you could make out the square getter. 



 

HERE IS A STRONG WESTINGHOUSE 6SN7GTB BLACK PLATE VACUUM TUBE. THIS TUBE TESTS EXCELLENT AT 100% FOR EMISSION ON BOTH TRIODES WITH NO SHORTS OR GRID LEAKAGE. TESTED ON A B& 600 TESTER. MFG AND DATE CODE IS 3378R48. 1958 VINTAGE. LARGE BLACK PLATES AND TOP MOUNTED RECTANGULAR GETTER. VERY NICE 6SN7 TUBE. FREE U.S SHIPPING

Thanks everyone!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Nice!  Congrats


----------



## ilikepooters

Just took the plunge on a calibrated B&K 606 tube tester, let's see if eBay sellers have been legit with their NOS claims 


Also a thought, anyone else in Europe got a Lyr 3 yet? seems i'm the only one in this thread, if anyone in UK has one i can test your tubes for ya when my tester turns up


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## rgmffn

bcowen said:


> Probably @Ripper2860
> 
> From what I can see in the picture, it looks like the real deal to me. Can't see the getter though..assuming it's shaped more like a D than a rectangle?
> 
> Nice score!



I didn't realize there was a difference. I thought I remember seeing pic posts of a rectangular getter, more square looking I think, and was said to be a D-getter. I'll have to look back through some pics.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

rgmffn said:


> I didn't realize there was a difference. I thought I remember seeing pic posts of a rectangular getter, more square looking I think, and was said to be a D-getter. I'll have to look back through some pics.



You have a link to the original ebay listing?


----------



## rgmffn

ilikepooters said:


> You have a link to the original ebay listing?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/223168276980

Then click on 'view original item '


----------



## ilikepooters

rgmffn said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/223168276980
> 
> Then click on 'view original item '




Definite D getter


----------



## ilikepooters (Sep 29, 2018)

Just found this on eBay and jumped on it:






Now i'm not sure, but it looks as though Westinghouse _may_ have made a 5692 (337 code printed on base). If they have then it's likely extremely rare.

Worst case scenario it was made by RCA.


*edit* maybe not so rare, found another for sale: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WESTINGH...662482?hash=item3b1de5afd2:g:JwkAAOSw8U9br6Nv

*edit2* RCA red bases seem to have spiky micas, so slightly different construction, this may actually be a bonafide Westinghouse, or a relabled Hytron (or GE).


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Can any tube gurus tell me who made these Cary branded 6SN7's? The construction is like nothing i've seen before.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Matched-...683674?hash=item2cdb2c705a:g:3AgAAOSw6VNbIqxr


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## chef8489

Ugh. Think I might need to sell some of my tubes. Money is really tight right now and I really only listen to one tube lol. I rather have my vt-231 in or my Westinghouse d getter in. Suppose I should just choose one tube and sell all my others.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> If you get one of these you could listen to 2 tubes
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not helping, am I?


Lol no.. Maybe just keep my Reflektor or my foton and sell all others.


----------



## Freeflap

went back to another fraken. It's a very musical tube. Sweet tubey goodness. Fullness in the bass and clear open treble. open soundstage like you are sitting near the front at a concert. I would say it's not as neutral but rather euphonic compared to the sylvania gtb. Not sure if that is good or not. Shouldn't the equipment avoid adding "color, flavor" to the music? regardless, it's a very satisfying tube to own and listen to. Love it. 

and it's relatively cheap! that's the best part!


----------



## Zachik

Freeflap said:


> Not sure if that is good or not. Shouldn't the equipment avoid adding "color, flavor" to the music?


Being in this hobby for several years now, I would say the community is divided into 2 camps:
Purists, who want no "color" and require the whole chain to be as neutral as can be.
<not sure how to label the other group> who want to just enjoy the music. If the audio chain added bass, or treble, or whatever - as long as it is pleasing then it is OK!

I belong to the 2nd group, BTW. I do not care whether or not my equipment "changed" the music. I only care about whether it is fun / pleasing to my ears or not!!


----------



## Rowethren

ilikepooters said:


> Just took the plunge on a calibrated B&K 606 tube tester, let's see if eBay sellers have been legit with their NOS claims
> 
> 
> Also a thought, anyone else in Europe got a Lyr 3 yet? seems i'm the only one in this thread, if anyone in UK has one i can test your tubes for ya when my tester turns up



I am in the UK and my Lyr 3 arrived yesterday for my work set up. If I buy any slightly dodgy ebay tubes it would be great to be able to send them to you for checking!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Rowethren

bcowen said:


> Cool!  I know the Lyr is intended for your work rig, but if you ever get a chance to compare it directly to the MJ2 I'd be very interested in your evaluation.



I haven't even plugged it in yet to be honest, left it boxed up to take to work. I am just about to go out so I could get it set up and warmed up then have a bit of a listen when I get back.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

Freeflap said:


> went back to another fraken. It's a very musical tube. Sweet tubey goodness. Fullness in the bass and clear open treble. open soundstage like you are sitting near the front at a concert. I would say it's not as neutral but rather euphonic compared to the sylvania gtb. Not sure if that is good or not. Shouldn't the equipment avoid adding "color, flavor" to the music? regardless, it's a very satisfying tube to own and listen to. Love it.
> 
> and it's relatively cheap! that's the best part!





Zachik said:


> Being in this hobby for several years now, I would say the community is divided into 2 camps:
> Purists, who want no "color" and require the whole chain to be as neutral as can be.
> <not sure how to label the other group> who want to just enjoy the music. If the audio chain added bass, or treble, or whatever - as long as it is pleasing then it is OK!
> 
> I belong to the 2nd group, BTW. I do not care whether or not my equipment "changed" the music. I only care about whether it is fun / pleasing to my ears or not!!



It's all subjective in the ear and mind of the listener. 
Some people will fall into the "strive for zero distortion / coloration" camp and enjoy that approach and the sound they get.
Some into the "consonant with the sound of music as I hear it" camp that provides the sound they find enjoyable listening to. 
Others may try and balance the two positions to arrive at a happy listening solution.

I like having options available; from different phones, tubes, electronics, etc., to give variety to my sonic palette depending on how  I want to listen at any given moment
and what I think will make for my enjoyment. There is no one right approach anymore than there is one right tube, cable, DAC, etc. I'm just glad to have a choice available.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> I spent a lot of years striving for the ultimate neutrality in my big rig (that rig was substantially different than what I have now). Funny thing was that the more accurate it got, the less I enjoyed listening to it. At the end of the day the real question is: what is accurate? Don't even want to open that rabbit hole here, so I'll just say that I now strive for a sound that gets me involved and engaged in the music. Bit of a bass bump? OK. 'Friendly' instead of purely linear in the treble? OK. Warm with lots of harmonics in the mids? OK. The only person that has to like the sound is.....me.



Truer words...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

today's Franken. It has some ancient masking tape on it. Wasnt sure what is safe to use to try and clean it


----------



## Freeflap

bcowen said:


> I spent a lot of years striving for the ultimate neutrality in my big rig (that rig was substantially different than what I have now). Funny thing was that the more accurate it got, the less I enjoyed listening to it. At the end of the day the real question is: what is accurate? Don't even want to open that rabbit hole here, so I'll just say that I now strive for a sound that gets me involved and engaged in the music. Bit of a bass bump? OK. 'Friendly' instead of purely linear in the treble? OK. Warm with lots of harmonics in the mids? OK. The only person that has to like the sound is.....me.



I agree with that. We all have different preferences in sound and what is considered "good". the strive for accuracy has a lot to do with avoiding equipment / gear that underperforms. such equipment might be so inaccurate as to cause the sound to be unnatural or unpleasant. plus aiming for neutral give you a benchmark to aim for and to compare speaker x to speaker y.... I think if we had our hearing tested, you'd be surprised at how deficient your hearing is. as we age, we lose hearing ability slowly over time, especially the upper frequencies. hence, our hearing becomes an inaccurate tool to measure the absolute performance of the equipment. so we are left with the only accurate measure we can hear. does it put a smile on your face yes or no? 

one additional observation: look at the success of beats and other such headphones. Objectively they sound meh. over exaggerated bass and bright treble. but that's exciting. Powerful thumping bass gets under your skin and makes you say wow. For the younger crowd that's what they want. plus the look and marketing, celebrity endorsement, etc... are all factors that appeal to kids. When my son was younger he begged for beats despite my objections. eventually, we caved and got him a pair for his birthday. he loved them. until i had him listen to the beats against my favorite at the time which was the vmoda. all i asked is that he listen objectively. we did a bunch of back and forth listening. He agreed the other headphones sounded clearly better. we sold the beats and bought him the vmoda m100 which he still uses today. It still has the strong bass that the kids like but it's a much better overall sound compared to beats. less exaggerated even though it has powerful bass. It's not neutral. but it is pleasing to him.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Rowethren

bcowen said:


> It'll need a bit more than a warm-up to compare fairly. If it's new, it'll need at least 50 hours (and probably 100) of break-in time before it delivers its best sound (IMO). Maybe bring it back home in a couple weeks for some weekend love?



Yeah true enough. Remind me in a few weeks and I will do that. I will definitely need a reminder though I have a brain like a sieve...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

agree agree! Bose is the 900 lb gorilla in the room. They make mediocre consumer audio stuff that sells like hotcakes. they are the richest audio company in the world (iirc) with excellent engineering and science. they also know their market: small pleasant looking speakers that don't offend women, but still sound ok. we all know who gets the first and last deciding vote on speakers. Big huge amazing speakers get voted down 99% by the spouse. Small cute speakers get the ok 99% of the time. 

bewarned: if bose ever wanted to make truly world class gear, they could easily and better than just about anyone else. they simply chose not to. it's not profitable.


----------



## Zachik

Regarding Bose and Beats success in the market, in the context of pure vs. colored sound:
Their success has NOTHING to do with their sound! Those 2 succeed due to good marketing and being "in" (fashion wise).  Just saying.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 30, 2018)

I'm giving her all she's got captain!!!  Absolutely beautiful. 

BTW -- I'm listening to my 1952 3-hole BB as I post.  Been listening all day.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I was going to respond in my usual sexual innuendo-laden crass manner, but I've decided that even I have standards. At least until my vacation vibe wears off.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> My 3-hole is better than yours.


Boys.... Boys.... sigh. 
(where is the male face-palm emoticon, BTW?!?!)


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> *Caution*  Tube porn:
> 
> A 3 hole Bad Boy all aglow. Well, as much as one_ can_ glow anyway:
> 
> ...


Send it to me and I will get good pics and some night shots lol.


----------



## Rowethren

chef8489 said:


> Send it to me and I will get good pics and some night shots lol.



Or send it to me and I can paint it like one of my French girls...


----------



## ProfFalkin

Rowethren said:


> Or send it to me and I can paint it like one of my French girls...



Oh!  Paint me too!   (We can replace the grapes with tubes.)


----------



## Rowethren

ProfFalkin said:


> Oh!  Paint me too!   (We can replace the grapes with tubes.)



It's a deal! You have to pay for the flights though... Also my cut is 50% of your tube supply


----------



## Rowethren

What do you guys this of these socket savers?

http://www.tubemonger.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=NOVIB-OCTAL-GE-CINCH&CartID=1

Are they worth it?


----------



## ilikepooters

Rowethren said:


> What do you guys this of these socket savers?
> 
> http://www.tubemonger.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=NOVIB-OCTAL-GE-CINCH&CartID=1
> Are they worth it?



If they let you extract your tube without pulling the whole socket saver with it then maybe. Otherwise that price is eye watering and you can get a good solid socket saver from China for much less.

My own personal preference is not to bother. Looking at the Socket in Lyr 3 it looks easy enough to manipulate the contacts if they become a loose fit


----------



## Rowethren

ilikepooters said:


> If they let you extract your tube without pulling the whole socket saver with it then maybe. Otherwise that price is eye watering and you can get a good solid socket saver from China for much less.
> 
> My own personal preference is not to bother. Looking at the Socket in Lyr 3 it looks easy enough to manipulate the contacts if they become a loose fit



Yeah true, everything seems much easier to handle on the Lyr 3 than the Mjolnir 2. I guess it is probably because the tubes are way bigger.

By the way does look like a 2 hole Bad Boy? It seems to fit all the right criteria as far as looks go but the photos are not great. No idea what those test results mean either...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6SN7GT-W...498166?hash=item36141a3e36:g:8y0AAOSw2gxYuEFW


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## Ripper2860 (Oct 1, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Oh!  Paint me too!   (We can replace the grapes with tubes.)



Well, that's an image I can never unsee.  



Rowethren said:


> By the way does look like a 2 hole Bad Boy? It seems to fit all the right criteria as far as looks go but the photos are not great. No idea what those test results mean either...
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6SN7GT-W...498166?hash=item36141a3e36:g:8y0AAOSw2gxYuEFW



Sure looks like one.  The true determining factor would be if there is a date code indicating years of MFG '51-'53.  Although some say it can go as far back as '48, I try to stick with the same years as a 3-hole BB when selecting a 2-hole version.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 1, 2018)

A slight exaggeration.  I have 3 of the 3-hole BB's. 

You want to see ridiculous?  Ask Billy-boy how many ribbed Foton's he has?


----------



## Rowethren

Haha... Well I will ask the seller if it has a date code on it then and see what they say. I mean if one of you wanted to sell me one I wouldn't say no. 

Anyone got an inside into what those test results mean? Complete gibberish to me!


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 1, 2018)

Brimar 6SN7 GT clear glass with the orange print is the real deal, have let it warm up and have listened to a couple of songs and so far it's the best tube i own by far (so far)  The micanol base black glass variant hasn't burned in properly yet so will have to come back to that one.


Think westinghouse D getter but with more warmth and a bit wider soundstage (not critical listened yet but will do)


Definitely a tube worth owning. Think i might have to stock up 

*EDIT* just noticed it's a tad microphonic in the left channel (was humming until i moved amp away from PC with the fans going nuts) if i tap the tube i get ringing in left channel, bought it used so not too concerned.


*edit* Oh the treble  This tube sounds "right" if you get what i mean.


----------



## Rowethren

Pair of 3 holes with these codes on 

L1M
C2M

These worth £90?


----------



## Freeflap

ilikepooters said:


> Brimar 6SN7 GT clear glass with the orange print is the real deal, have let it warm up and have listened to a couple of songs and so far it's the best tube i own by far (so far)  The micanol base black glass variant hasn't burned in properly yet so will have to come back to that one.
> 
> 
> Think westinghouse D getter but with more warmth and a bit wider soundstage (not critical listened yet but will do)
> ...



glad you like it. can you show a pic? am curious if your brimar looks like mine. mine has no date code. my seller said to get black base with orange letters. Have to go back to it today. am loving my franken right now. 
thx


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> Can't you guys ever like a tube I already have?  Sheeez.



LOL, I like all your tubes!!!


----------



## ilikepooters

Freeflap said:


> glad you like it. can you show a pic? am curious if your brimar looks like mine. mine has no date code. my seller said to get black base with orange letters. Have to go back to it today. am loving my franken right now.
> thx




Round plates, staggered, IG3 date code whatever that means.


----------



## Freeflap

nice. looks just like mine. enjoy!


----------



## Ripper2860

OK.  I'll bite.  If anyone has a source for relatively inexpensive Brimar, I'm all ears!!  What I'm finding is $100+.  More than I care to spend.


----------



## ilikepooters

Ripper2860 said:


> OK.  I'll bite.  If anyone has a source for relatively inexpensive Brimar, I'm all ears!!  What I'm finding is $100+.  More than I care to spend.




There's an auction with 3 for sale on UK ebay, not NOS but test very good, i plan to buy them up so i have backups but i could part with one of them. If i win of course.

6 days left in auction i think.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 1, 2018)

Thanks!!!  Put me on the list assuming you win and care to part with one.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## chef8489

I used


bcowen said:


> Knowing that being Brimar-less will increase your anxiety level to the point it interferes with normal life functions, and with me being my usual helpful self I thought I'd point out another option. Get one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I used the 6cg7 with the vali 2. Not tried it with the LYR 3 though.


----------



## Freeflap

back on the brimar. Yes, it's a very good tube. Not as lush as the 7n7 franken. but clean and more neutral. excellent soundstage as noted. Bass not as impactful as 3hole or 2 hole bad boy, but full and deep regardless. Enjoy!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 1, 2018)

bcowen said:


> There be W's here!!
> 
> Funny...they look like a Frankie with an octal base.



They will sound a lot like a Frankie, too - at  least they do to me.  Maybe a tad more slam and a teeny wider and holographic soundstage for the W, but YMMV.  .


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Knowing that being Brimar-less will increase your anxiety level to the point it interferes with normal life functions, and with me being my usual helpful self I thought I'd point out another option. Get one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




WTH - I'm up for the challenge.


----------



## buonassi

Ripper2860 said:


> OK.  I'll bite.  If anyone has a source for relatively inexpensive Brimar, I'm all ears!!  What I'm finding is $100+.  More than I care to spend.


So uh, sell some of your other tubes you have multiples of, then grab a brimar.  Oh wait, I'm sorry.  I should probably keep the advice to that which is 'possible' and 'actionable' for ripper.


----------



## Rowethren (Oct 2, 2018)

What would you all say is the going rate for a Big Boy? Lots about but I don't really know how much I should be paying for them...

Found some absolutely pristine ones on eBay though that test at *3100/3100 microhmos
3300/3000 microhmos. *They look spotless as well:


----------



## Currawong

I got out the MELZ 6H8C I bought on eBay ages ago. It had noise issues, so I thought I'd cruise eBay to see if I could find another one. A useful comment on one of the listings suggested that noise issues can be fixed by re-flowing the solder in the pins, so I did, and the issues went away. 

The MELZ is like a Russian rip-off of the Bad Boy but with a metal base. Sound is thin, sharp and lively and focusses intensively on details in the music. Can be too much of a good thing. I have been using the Audio-gd R28 as a source (with the SE output it becomes an R2 effectively). The combination of slightly warm euphoria of the ladder DAC with the Lyr 3 is great, even with softer-sounding tubes.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 2, 2018)

Sell?  I don't understand.  Is this some sort of new hoarding paradigm?  Selling is what 'other people' do - I acquire.  I'm an integral part in the capitalist economic machine.

Besides - if I have several of a tube it's because I like them.  Why would I want to amass a bunch of something I like and then sell it off for something I haven't even heard or know I'll like.  That makes no sense.   Silly Rabbit!


----------



## Rowethren

bcowen said:


> Those are some nice test readings...if true.    Never can know for sure until you buy a few things from a particular seller.
> 
> In US dollars, $50 - $70 seems to be the going rate on Ebay. Quite a bit more if buying from a reputable dealer (but you then get a tested tube with a valid guarantee usually). If you see a true Bad Boy for less than $50, I'd analyze it very carefully -- too good to be true almost always is in tube land.



Well they were up for $165 but I put in an offer for $140 so that seems about right for a matched pair in the condition they are in. Fingers crossed they accept


----------



## Ripper2860

Seems like a reasonable offer.  Good luck.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Guys - who is gonna be at RMAF this coming weekend?
Looking forward to meet some of you in person (I know - be careful what you wish for... )


----------



## ProfFalkin

Zachik said:


> Guys - who is gonna be at RMAF this coming weekend?
> Looking forward to meet some of you in person (I know - be careful what you wish for... )


Yep, I should be there all 3 days.


----------



## Zachik

ProfFalkin said:


> Yep, I should be there all 3 days.


Cool - me too!  Hope to see you there


----------



## Rowethren

I wish I was going. So much nice stuff going to be there including new SCHIIT!!! Also the Meze Empyrean which I am dying to hear.

Unfortunately...

I am 4700 miles away!


----------



## Zachik

Rowethren said:


> I wish I was going. So much nice stuff going to be there including new SCHIIT!!! Also the Meze Empyrean which I am dying to hear.
> 
> Unfortunately...
> 
> *I am 4700 miles away!*


4700 miles away puts you in the middle of the Atlantic or Pacific oceans.... hmmmm...... Hawaii??
BTW, I am 1200 miles away, but when flying it does not really matter... You'd need to spend extra few hours on the airplane


----------



## Rowethren

Also they accepted my offer so they are on their way! Total cost was $165 due to $25 postage which is reasonable I guess but still. They look in baller condition and they seem to test very well. @ilikepooters Maybe you could clarify them seeing as you wanted to give your new tube tester a go?


----------



## Rowethren

Zachik said:


> 4700 miles away puts you in the middle of the Atlantic or Pacific oceans.... hmmmm...... Hawaii??
> BTW, I am 1200 miles away, but when flying it does not really matter... You'd need to spend extra few hours on the airplane



It is a damn long way!


----------



## Rowethren

By the way if anyone is interested the seller has another set of Bad Boys with almost as good test results up for sale. He accepted $140 on mine so you might be able to push lower than that:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sylvania-6SN7GT-1952-Real-Bad-Boys-matched-pair/253890228688


----------



## Zachik

Rowethren said:


> It is a damn long way!


It is, but hey - you got to make sacrifices... 
At least CanJam London is very close for you - I have never been to that one and heard it is a lot of fun!


----------



## Freeflap

my seller might be able to do better on the badboys. I've asked him to see if he has any more brimars. will let you know by tomorrow.


----------



## FLTWS

Started process in my bedroom this morning pulling everything apart and thoroughly cleaning (it's been a while) for the new upstairs rig. Found these.
My brother and I went to NY years ago to meet Harvey at his house and listen to his modified Futterman design. 
Good times.


----------



## ilikepooters

Rowethren said:


> Also they accepted my offer so they are on their way! Total cost was $165 due to $25 postage which is reasonable I guess but still. They look in baller condition and they seem to test very well. @ilikepooters Maybe you could clarify them seeing as you wanted to give your new tube tester a go?



Sure, it's been pointed out to me though that the tester i bought only tests emission and not transconductance. So readings will differ from what most people put on ebay (micromhos, surely micro-ohms?), but it does test for shorts and grid emission.


----------



## ilikepooters

Just a question for any experts, but did Saratov (Reflektor, Sovtek etc) make a 6N8S? I've seen NEVZ, MELZ and Foton.

Some ebay listings stating Reflektor but i don't see the logo anywhere.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Rowethren said:


> It is a damn long way!


But worth it...


----------



## Ripper2860

FLTWS said:


> Started process in my bedroom this morning pulling everything apart and thoroughly cleaning (it's been a while) for the new upstairs rig. Found these.
> My brother and I went to NY years ago to meet Harvey at his house and listen to his modified Futterman design.
> Good times.



Harvey Rosenberg -- aka Phil Collins.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Oct 2, 2018)

@bcowen -- Oh, yeah.  So how's that moat coming along?

All -- I won't be going to RMAF.  As I've said previously, I'm banned for making fun of attendees.  What I didn't state was that there's is also an unproven, uncorroborated, and slanderous allegation that I 'blacked out' and fondled tubes at the last RMAF.  I can assure you that I have never 'blacked out' at RMAF and my calendar will clearly show that I was nowhere near the voluptuous 'Round Plate' Tung-sol on the day in question.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Rowethren said:


> It is a damn long way!


Come to Shanghai then!  Sure, it's farther, but it's Shanghai... Once you've come a damn long way, you might as well go the extra mile(s).


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

FLTWS said:


> Started process in my bedroom this morning pulling everything apart and thoroughly cleaning (it's been a while) for the new upstairs rig. Found these.
> My brother and I went to NY years ago to meet Harvey at his house and listen to his modified Futterman design.
> Good times.


My first piece of tube gear was a TL2.5 pre-amp.  I've since passed it along, but I'm looking forward to finding its replacement when I get back to the US.  The Freya will definitely be in the running.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 2, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> Why would I want to amass a bunch of something I like and then sell it off for something I haven't even heard or know I'll like. That makes no sense. Silly Rabbit!





bcowen said:


> This is an affront to accepted audiophile logic.  You're fired.



Yeah.  I don't know what got into me.  Sorry.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 2, 2018)

And is it the hole or non-hole plates version?


----------



## chef8489 (Oct 3, 2018)

Have my 1971 Reflektor 6N9s back in and thought I would shoot some pics.


----------



## buonassi

bcowen said:


> This is an affront to accepted audiophile logic



Speaking from personal experience, I think "audiophile logic" is a bit of an oxymoron.  "An affront to audiophile behavior", now THAT I can agree with!


----------



## Rowethren

Zachik said:


> It is, but hey - you got to make sacrifices...
> At least CanJam London is very close for you - I have never been to that one and heard it is a lot of fun!



I went to CanJam London in 2016 to demo a few bits prior to doing a bulk purchase of an Ether Flow, Mjolnir 2 and Gumby. It ended up being an expensive trip. Not sure I can afford to go to a other one with costs like that


----------



## Currawong

bcowen said:


> Thin?  Hmmm....
> 
> I've found the Melz are kissin' cousins to the Fotons, perhaps a bit more dynamic overall and a little punchier in the bass but otherwise very similar. They also mimic the Fotons in taking a *long* time to break in (100+ hours) and do the roller coaster ride between sounding good and bad throughout the process. How much time do you have on the Melz?
> 
> Good to hear that the re-soldering worked!



Not long, since it sat in the box for a long time. I'm mulling over actually removing the solder now (if my solder sucker will do it) and put Cardas quad in instead to see if it can improve anything. My logic is, if they didn't solder the pins properly, who knows what crappy solder they used for them in the first place.



chef8489 said:


> Have my 1971 Reflektor 6N9s back in and thought I would shoot some pics.



Can you remove those massive pictures? The best thing to do is click on "upload file" and upload the pictures, then insert them into the post. Anyone trying to read the thread on mobile is going to be slaughtered.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


>


I love how the video tracker is an optional feature.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Rowethren

It has supreme accuracy though so as to not damage any tubes a person may or may not be carrying at time of extermination...


----------



## chef8489

Currawong said:


> Not long, since it sat in the box for a long time. I'm mulling over actually removing the solder now (if my solder sucker will do it) and put Cardas quad in instead to see if it can improve anything. My logic is, if they didn't solder the pins properly, who knows what crappy solder they used for them in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you remove those massive pictures? The best thing to do is click on "upload file" and upload the pictures, then insert them into the post. Anyone trying to read the thread on mobile is going to be slaughtered.


I am doing this on mobile and they should not enlarge to max unless you click on them.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> It's a way cool and indispensable option with a 'Hug' mode that instantly recognizes people like @Ripper2860 and locks on with a giant Hug...



Ahhhh.   That's so nice.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Bit of tube related porn before bed:















Still waiting on the adaptor for the Osrams


----------



## Ripper2860

Sweet tube dreams ...


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## buonassi

Rowethren said:


> at time of extermination...


I never thought I'd read a phrase like this in a tube rolling thread.  Just classic!


----------



## Rowethren

buonassi said:


> I never thought I'd read a phrase like this in a tube rolling thread.  Just classic!



I feel honored that I could add to the madness that is this thread


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> They're Chinese, and depending on how old they are they were either a Ruby Tube brand or Shuguang.  The shoddy construction is telling ...look how the plates are separated on the right tube. Over $200 US?  I am absolutely LMAO!!!!!  They're a $10 tube and overpriced at that.
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shuguang...Pair-2PCS-For-Tube-Amplifier-UK-/311378611740


Christ on a cracker. Interesting observations. Tube rollers, keep posting images like this (with overlayed arrows showing “the tells”). When I eventually pick up my first tube-amp (i.e., Vali2), this type of intelligence is useful to me (so that I don’t get too hosed).


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Freeflap said:


> I agree with that. We all have different preferences in sound and what is considered "good". the strive for accuracy has a lot to do with avoiding equipment / gear that underperforms. such equipment might be so inaccurate as to cause the sound to be unnatural or unpleasant. plus aiming for neutral give you a benchmark to aim for and to compare speaker x to speaker y.... I think if we had our hearing tested, you'd be surprised at how deficient your hearing is. as we age, we lose hearing ability slowly over time, especially the upper frequencies. hence, our hearing becomes an inaccurate tool to measure the absolute performance of the equipment. so we are left with the only accurate measure we can hear. does it put a smile on your face yes or no?
> 
> one additional observation: look at the success of beats and other such headphones. Objectively they sound meh. over exaggerated bass and bright treble. but that's exciting. Powerful thumping bass gets under your skin and makes you say wow. For the younger crowd that's what they want. plus the look and marketing, celebrity endorsement, etc... are all factors that appeal to kids. When my son was younger he begged for beats despite my objections. eventually, we caved and got him a pair for his birthday. he loved them. until i had him listen to the beats against my favorite at the time which was the vmoda. all i asked is that he listen objectively. we did a bunch of back and forth listening. He agreed the other headphones sounded clearly better. we sold the beats and bought him the vmoda m100 which he still uses today. It still has the strong bass that the kids like but it's a much better overall sound compared to beats. less exaggerated even though it has powerful bass. It's not neutral. but it is pleasing to him.


+1 dad parenting. You’re making my job (high school teacher) easier. Thanks, eh. Interesting post - btw.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Zachik said:


> Guys - who is gonna be at RMAF this coming weekend?
> Looking forward to meet some of you in person (I know - be careful what you wish for... )


If you’re indeed attending the even, would you be able to post images & reflections on this thread or the main (J.S.’s) thread? Thanks, eh.


----------



## Zachik

ScubaMan2017 said:


> If you’re indeed attending the even, would you be able to post images & reflections on this thread or the main (J.S.’s) thread? Thanks, eh.


I have attended 2 RMAF plus 2 CanJam events, and so far - I have always posted notes / impressions. Will probably do so again...


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Zachik said:


> I have attended 2 RMAF plus 2 CanJam events, and so far - I have always posted notes / impressions. Will probably do so again...


I’m a newcomer to this hobby (and this forum’s far, far more entertaining than other social media offerings). 21st century newsgroups (like Compuserve). Nice.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I exist merely for @bcowen 's entertainment.


----------



## Zachik

@Ripper2860 - very good point @bcowen is making here... 
You gotta stop being so stubborn with your solid state amps and try a tube amp. You might like it...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 4, 2018)

Wow!!  Thanks, guys!  Inserting a tube into my Lyr 3 has really made a difference!  I can't believe I never tried a tube before now -- I've really been missing out on great sound!!  The difference in sound is AMAZING!!!  You guys on this forum are incredible!!   Thank you!!!! 


  Not!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow!!  Thanks, guys!  Inserting a tube into my Lyr 3 has really made a difference!  I can't believe I never tried a tube before now -- I've really been missing out on great sound!!  The difference in sound difference is AMAZING!!!  You guys on this forum are incredible!!   Thank you!!!!
> 
> 
> Not!


Yer' doin' it wrong.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 4, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Yer' doin' it wrong.



Maybe so, but when I tried putting a tube in my Magni 3, I had to bend the pins a bit.  When I finally managed to get the tube inserted, I heard no difference -- the sound profile remained the same.  Needless to say, I was very disappointed.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Oct 4, 2018)

Yeah.  I'm curious  -- how and where @ProfFalkin inserts his tube to derive maximum musical pleasure?  

On 2nd thought -- maybe not!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Wow.  This deteriorated quickly.  Even surprised me!


----------



## ProfFalkin

You know what they say.  If you can't plead the First, plead the Fifth.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> We were all newcomers once (and with headphones not that long ago for me), so welcome.  I have this friend (goes by @Ripper2860 ) that I've been trying to get interested in tubes, but he's enamored with his solid state stuff and probably wouldn't be able to hear the difference anyway.  Dang young 'uns....


It's a tough slog ... I don't think you'll convert him.

Legend has it that @Ripper2860 s life was changed when he switched from his trusty Vactuphone to the Transist-Ear as a young man.  His love for solid state was, well... solidified that moment.  He was quoted as saying "Damn, now I can hear ALL the voices in my head... but it's like they're clear... and they're now out of my head".  Occasionally he's been known to pull out the Vactuphone to "bring back that tube sound" to his environment and has begun searching for tubes to roll.  So there is hope.


----------



## Ripper2860

Damn.  It's like you really know and understand me and my struggle.  Just stick with me through this journey.  Patience and understanding will be required as I slowly work from SS to LISST to vacuum tubes.  I'll get there in due time...

 as long as the Rick Astley voice in my head remains quiet.  Should he return - all bets are off.


----------



## buonassi

Ripper2860 said:


> Wow. This deteriorated quickly.



Boy did it....I really needed this today.  Great read the last page of posts!  Just sublime



ItsAllInMyHead said:


> "Damn, now I can hear ALL the voices in my head... but it's like they're clear... and they're now out of my head".



.............  ..............



Ripper2860 said:


> Patience and understanding will be required as I slowly work from SS to LISST to vacuum tubes.



If you're on the path of increasing sound quality, you may want to try this order:  LISST > SS > Tubes


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## Freeflap (Oct 5, 2018)

Fotons from Russia arrived yesterday. First 5 minutes of listening: big soundstage. Very holographic presentation. Instruments appear from all around me. Sound in the midbass is a little rough and not smooth. Treble seemed tad dry. But as all have said, i need to give this tube a LONG burn in time. Have some music running through my audeze lcd2 for now. will check again after work.

Sorry for going "off topic"... you may resume the usual witty banter and character assassination.


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## Rowethren

Freeflap said:


> Fotoms from Russia arrived yesterday. First 5 minutes of listening: big soundstage. Very holographic presentation. Instruments appear from all around me. Sound in the midbass is a little rough and not smooth. Treble seemed tad dry. But as all have said, i need to give this tube a LONG burn in time. Have some music running through my audeze lcd2 for now. will check again after work.
> 
> Sorry for going "off topic"... you may resume the usual witty banter and character assassination.



More like "Bitty Wanter!"


----------



## ProfFalkin

Freeflap said:


> Fotoms from Russia arrived yesterday. First 5 minutes of listening: big soundstage. Very holographic presentation. Instruments appear from all around me. Sound in the midbass is a little rough and not smooth. Treble seemed tad dry. But as all have said, i need to give this tube a LONG burn in time. Have some music running through my audeze lcd2 for now. will check again after work.
> 
> Sorry for going "off topic"... you may resume the usual witty banter and character assassination.


Nice!   Enjoy the 100 hours of burn in.

Also...  My Foton just blew the left channel.   It's not the headphone, it's the tube.    I'm currently debating if I should drown myself in the river I just cried, or if I should get over it and put in the spare.


----------



## Ripper2860

Geez.  Does that mean you must endure the 100 hour ordeal, again?


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Geez.  Does that mean you must endure the 100 hour ordeal, again?


Yes.   Luckily, if I leave the setup on over the weekend, that's a little over 1/2 of the burn in time over and done with.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

ProfFalkin said:


> Nice!   Enjoy the 100 hours of burn in.
> 
> Also...  My Foton just blew the left channel.   It's not the headphone, it's the tube.    I'm currently debating if I should drown myself in the river I just cried, or if I should get over it and put in the spare.



This type of disaster will lead SOME of us, to hoard tubes. what if the back up to the back up to the back up tube dies? what will I do then????? buy 50 or so extra tubes so I can sleep soundly at night!


----------



## Ripper2860

Exactly!  I'm glad some are starting to come around to my acquisition strategy.


----------



## Rowethren

It is very convenient that the guy sells Fotons in sets of 2


----------



## FLTWS

Who was the seller?


----------



## Rowethren

FLTWS said:


> Who was the seller?



It was these 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8...173507?hash=item238a3dfc83:g:xmAAAOSwjpRavJ8e

But unfortunately they have sold out now because I bought the last ones...


----------



## ilikepooters

Shuguang CV181-Z is an interesting tube.

It's been cooking for about 48 hours so far, i've heard they need up to 150 though.

Schiit never got back to me on how much heater current Lyr 3 can handle but this tube hasn't blown it up yet.


Anyway, this tube seems quite warm, maybe the bass is a tad bloated, mids are nothing spectacular, they are just nice, treble is a bit laid back but sounds natural.
Imaging is where this tube really shines, it's very 3d, not huge width but has depth, can easily place instruments. i'm hoping with another 100hrs or so it will widen and the bass will tighten up.


If you can get one of these cheap it's worth a listen, but for the £52 i paid it needs to improve more with burn in to be worth it. Also you need to spend extra on a socket saver because the base is too fat to go in the Lyr hole.


----------



## Rowethren

ilikepooters said:


> Shuguang CV181-Z is an interesting tube.
> 
> It's been cooking for about 48 hours so far, i've heard they need up to 150 though.
> 
> ...



Damn that was expensive for an unknown tube. My 3 hole Bad Boys were only £65 each and they are supposed to be the best you can get!


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## FLTWS (Oct 5, 2018)

Rowethren said:


> It was these
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-6N8...173507?hash=item238a3dfc83:g:xmAAAOSwjpRavJ8e
> 
> But unfortunately they have sold out now because I bought the last ones...


I got 4 from that seller a while back, they all burned in and sounded fine to me at 50 hours each, been focused on other things since late August
and I've got 2 Grant Fidelity CV181's to burn in yet.

Edit: just checked my records, paid $58.00 for the 4 including shipping back on July 2.


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 5, 2018)

Rowethren said:


> Damn that was expensive for an unknown tube. My 3 hole Bad Boys were only £65 each and they are supposed to be the best you can get!



I thought it was worth a gamble considering Grant Fidelity sell them for $200 / pair


Never tried a bad boy, i've tried quite a few american tubes and am going to be rolling British for a while. Osram L63's will be going in as soon as i get an adaptor. Might acquire a Mullard ECC33 too and a Marconi B65.

Need to get a few back-up Brimar Orange print too, watching an auction that ends sunday for those.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

ilikepooters said:


> ...am going to be rolling British for a while. Osram L63's will be going in as soon as i get an adaptor.



Be careful with British tubes.
I couldn't get over male vocals all sounding like Mick Jagger with the Osrams...



ilikepooters said:


> Might acquire a Mullard ECC33 too...



Solid choice if you like Eric Clapton... both his guitar and vocals are sublime with the Mullard...  Sadly it  makes American guitarists like SRV sound "off".  Stick with the Ken-Rads for SRV.



ilikepooters said:


> and a Marconi B65.


Fantastic for British opera... Try some Paul Potts; you'll be transported



ilikepooters said:


> ..Brimar Orange print too



Really versatile tube, well suited to the British Jazz scene.  Ripper's all over the Brimar Orange.  



Seriously though... can't wait to hear your impressions of the Fab 4.


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 6, 2018)

Shuguang CV181-Z is starting to grow on me after another 18 hours.

I wonder if there's something to new production tubes being made purely for audio purposes, if you think about it, old valves like from 40's and 50's weren't really made for audio, they were for military use mainly, sometimes those old vacuum tube computers and mass produced TV sets. Not manufactured with the audiophile in mind.

Felt dirty buying a chinese tube but i'm impressed. Never thought i'd be saying that.

Soundstage has widened a tad, bass maybe slightly tighter and treble seems a tad less laid back.

I do have a stinking rotten cold though so take with a pinch of salt lol


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 6, 2018)

Discrete solid state, that is.  Unless one wants to start rolling Op Amps.


----------



## ilikepooters

Op  Amp rolling is addictive too, but a lot cheaper.

My crappy Maverick D1 AMP/DAC benefitted hugely from op amp upgrades, OPA627 was a massive upgrade over the stock chip (can't remember what the stock chip was, but it was real old tech) Burson v5i improved even more.


Prefer rolling tubes though, more of a gamble with the amount of money you can spend


----------



## ilikepooters

So after a while of us rolling tubes in Lyr 3, what is, in your opinion best bang-for-buck tube you've heard so far?


----------



## Freeflap

ilikepooters said:


> So after a while of us rolling tubes in Lyr 3, what is, in your opinion best bang-for-buck tube you've heard so far?



Probably a used 7n7 franken. Found one for $7 plus shipping. Lovely tube. Also have a nos 2 hole Badboy for $20 plus shipping. Superb tube value


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 6, 2018)

Just cause you can't roll your LISST tubes due to limited availability of 3rd party solid state tubes, doesn't mean you have to go and rain on everyone's parade.  

Friend-to-friend:  You're turning into quite the grump.  Perhaps you should check with your Dr. about your low 'T' situation.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Alright.  I'll give you pass this time.


----------



## buonassi

ProfFalkin said:


> My Foton just blew the left channel.



both of mine have intermittent crackling in the left channel - thought it could be a dirty socket, but doesn't do that with other tubes.  Are these the tubes that others have mentioned respond well to solder reflow? or was another tube?  can't recall. 



bcowen said:


> Op amps sound like 90's production Russian tubes.


really?  this is...like, a factual statement or a joke?  I've never heard a 90s production Russian tube, so...  Also, not all solid state circuits sound the same - from what I read (and have a little first hand experience with) can vary in sound pretty noticeably.  

p.s.  I'm in the halo getters club fo sho - still my #1 -
p.p.s.  typeface selection in tube loving honor of @ProfFalkin .


----------



## ProfFalkin

buonassi said:


> both of mine have intermittent crackling in the left channel - thought it could be a dirty socket, but doesn't do that with other tubes.  Are these the tubes that others have mentioned respond well to solder reflow? or was another tube?  can't recall.
> 
> 
> really?  this is...like, a factual statement or a joke?  I've never heard a 90s production Russian tube, so...  Also, not all solid state circuits sound the same - from what I read (and have a little first hand experience with) can vary in sound pretty noticeably.
> ...


Honestly, I really don't know.  I can reflow the solder just to see if it will make any difference.


Also, 99.99% of all op amps sounds like a festering, blistered asshole blowing a warm putrid odor directly into your ears.  Just my two cents.


----------



## rgmffn (Oct 7, 2018)

buonassi said:


> both of mine have intermittent crackling in the left channel - thought it could be a dirty socket, but doesn't do that with other tubes.  Are these the tubes that others have mentioned respond well to solder reflow? or was another tube?  can't recall.


I have a couple of 50s fotons that do that exact same thing too!  Left channel. I'd be curious to know if reflowiing would fix that myself. But what I've done is leave my HPs on and flick the tube with my finger (the middle one ) while holding the top of it with my other hand.. while it's in the amp and running.  I've had to flick it several times to get it to stop. That works for me. But it always comes back after a few listening sessions. And it's my best sounding foton too!


----------



## buonassi

ProfFalkin said:


> Also, 99.99% of all op amps sounds like a festering, blistered asshole blowing a warm putrid odor directly into your ears.


    holy laugh my ass off prof!  Good one.  "blistered" actually made me choke on water as I was taking a sip when I read it.  

I agree that opamps aren't ideal and usually don't sound as good as a "true" amplifier built with discrete components.  I shoulda known better... appearing to endorse solid state amps on a tube amp thread.  What was I thinking?


----------



## ProfFalkin

buonassi said:


> holy laugh my ass off prof!  Good one.  "blistered" actually made me choke on water as I was taking a sip when I read it.
> 
> I agree that opamps aren't ideal and usually don't sound as good as a "true" amplifier built with discrete components.  I shoulda known better... appearing to endorse solid state amps on a tube amp thread.  What was I thinking?


I aim to please.


----------



## buonassi

rgmffn said:


> I have a couple of 50s fotons that do that exact same thing too!  Left channel. I'd be curious to know if reflowiing would fix that myself. But what I've done is leave my HPs on and flick the tube with my finger (the middle one ) while holding the top of it with my other hand.. while it's in the amp and running.  I've had to flick it several times to get it to stop. That works for me. But it always comes back after a few listening sessions. And it's my best sounding foton too!


yup, it's the 50's fotons I'm referring to - i have a 52 and a 53.  must be a manufacturing shortcoming from that model - vs a batch thing?.  I bought 2 from that seller who had a ton on ebay a couple months ago - he has since run out.

Anyway - I had the foton in there for about 3 weeks after I got it.  It's my 2nd favorite tube so far.  When I put it back in and got the static - I was a bit miffed - so I switched it out for the 2nd foton - same issue.

Maybe it's something with the lyr 3 and this particular tube type that does that.  Maybe someone can chime in as to why this would happen or what is technically causing it.  Or maybe I'll reflow the solder on one tomorrow and report back - but I have a cheap pen soldering iron and not sure it'll do the trick?  I'm also not sure if I want the solder to flow down?  So I hold the tube glass up/pins down as I do it?  Or is it the other way around.  

and thx for the middle finger flick tip.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 8, 2018)

An unexpected surprise...

I went to a friend's house to watch the McGregor/Khabib fight and I gifted him a '55 Foton ribbed plate as I knew he had a Darkvoice tube amp with a 6SN7 preamp section.  Well, not only was he thankful, but he gave me a couple of tubes he felt did not pair very well with his amp/HP combo -- a Shu Guang Black Glass CV-181Z and a '52 Sylvania 'Bad Boy' tube.  My jaw almost hit the floor and after asking him if he was serious, and him assuring me it was all mine for keeps, I quickly secured my tube bounty in the car and proceeded to enjoy the evening's event.   I'm letting the CV181-Z break-in overnight and will give it a listen after wake-up in a few hours.  A great night!!


----------



## Rowethren

Ripper2860 said:


> An unexpected surprise...
> 
> I went to a friend's house to watch the McGregor/Khabib fight and I gifted him a '55 Foton ribbed plate as I knew he had a Darkvoice tube amp with a 6SN7 pre-amp section.  Well, not only was he thankful, but he gave me a couple of tubes he felt did not pair very well with his amp/HP combo -- a Shu Guang Black Glass CV-181Z and a '52 Sylvania 'Bad Boy' tube.  My jaw almost hit the floor and after asking him if he was serious, and him assuring me it was all mine for keeps, I quickly secured my tube bounty in the car and proceeded to enjoy the evening's event.   I'm letting the CV181Z break-in overnight and will give it a listen after wake-up in a few hours.  A great night!!



If only I had some friends


----------



## ilikepooters

buonassi said:


> both of mine have intermittent crackling in the left channel - thought it could be a dirty socket, but doesn't do that with other tubes.  Are these the tubes that others have mentioned respond well to solder reflow? or was another tube?  can't recall.
> 
> 
> really?  this is...like, a factual statement or a joke?  I've never heard a 90s production Russian tube, so...  Also, not all solid state circuits sound the same - from what I read (and have a little first hand experience with) can vary in sound pretty noticeably.
> ...




I had intermittant crackling on my Melz 6N8S and reflowing the soldering worked, one has since started again intermittantly on the left channel but the other is fine. Could probably use some better solder if there's a way of getting it in there. Might see if i heat a pin up high enough it will pull off so i can clean off the old solder.

I use one of these soldering stations with the heat cranked all the way up to 450C https://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-Screen-Station-Protection-Soldering/dp/B004X25LW8


----------



## ilikepooters

Ripper2860 said:


> An unexpected surprise...
> 
> I went to a friend's house to watch the McGregor/Khabib fight and I gifted him a '55 Foton ribbed plate as I knew he had a Darkvoice tube amp with a 6SN7 pre-amp section.  Well, not only was he thankful, but he gave me a couple of tubes he felt did not pair very well with his amp/HP combo -- a Shu Guang Black Glass CV-181Z and a '52 Sylvania 'Bad Boy' tube.  My jaw almost hit the floor and after asking him if he was serious, and him assuring me it was all mine for keeps, I quickly secured my tube bounty in the car and proceeded to enjoy the evening's event.   I'm letting the CV181Z break-in overnight and will give it a listen after wake-up in a few hours.  A great night!!




Mines sounding good around the 70-80hr mark so don't be surprised if it doesn't sound great yet


----------



## ilikepooters

buonassi said:


> yup, it's the 50's fotons I'm referring to - i have a 52 and a 53.  must be a manufacturing shortcoming from that model - vs a batch thing?.  I bought 2 from that seller who had a ton on ebay a couple months ago - he has since run out.
> 
> Anyway - I had the foton in there for about 3 weeks after I got it.  It's my 2nd favorite tube so far.  When I put it back in and got the static - I was a bit miffed - so I switched it out for the 2nd foton - same issue.
> 
> ...



I think putting these tubes in the Lyr causes some flexing of the pins that causes the solder to crack, but when re-flowing hold the tube upside down, you can see on the very end of the pins some solder, heat this up and then run the soldering iron up and down the pin several times, make sure iron is as hot as you can get it.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

I won the Brimars, £120 for 3 used tubes, i'd say i must be mad but i know how great they sound


----------



## Rowethren

ilikepooters said:


> I won the Brimars, £120 for 3 used tubes, i'd say i must be mad but i know how great they sound



Yep mad  it's a fun club!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 8, 2018)

OK.  So earlier I posted that a friend of mine gifted me a couple of tubes -- a Shu Guang black-glass CV181-Z and a '52 Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boy.  I'm pretty well versed on the Bad Boys, but not so much on the Shu Guang.  Are these anything like PS Vane UK?  I believe there are various 'grades/levels' of the Shu Guang CV181-Z.  I believe this tube to be part of the 'Treasure' series.  Can anyone confirm and/or tell me more about what I have from the pic below?

Oh, and my new Hifiman Ananda headphone decided to photobomb the pic.  Sorry.  

Thx in advance ...


----------



## Monahans67

Yeah it's a big tube. Lol


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 7, 2018)

As opposed to Foton's unpaid Siberian Work Camp dissidents using cans from expired food rations for metal alloy?  

Once again, @bcowen -- you are not being helpful.  


** Edited for @bcowen 's understanding


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 7, 2018)

It's the rations that have expired and they were expired before being sent to Siberia.  Duh!  

(Sorry folks -- I forgot the level of intellect I'm dealing with when engaging @bcowen.)

And NO!  You are still not being helpful!!


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Ripper2860 said:


> ...Are these anything like PS Vane UK?  I believe there are various 'grades/levels' of the Shu Guang CV181-Z.  I believe this tube to be part of the 'Treasure' series.  Can anyone confirm and/or tell me more about what I have from the pic below?
> 
> Oh, and my new Hifiman Ananda headphone decided to photobomb the pic.  Sorry.
> 
> Thx in advance ...



Nice new phones!  Love to hear your impressions at some point.  I remember you mentioning you were getting them, and then we both went off on vacation.  I forgot to ask about them.

re: Shuguang Tubes - You've maybe turned up a few things similar to below, but here's a few things

https://www.thetubestore.com/shuguang-treasure-cv181-z

I could swear that Denny (the reviewer) on that site must be your alter ego..... "Tube rolling is an obsessive, compulsive madness that can drive you to the brink of insanity...or am I (you) already there?I"

I've posted the relationship between Shuguang and PSVane (PSVane is a brand of Changsha Hengyang Electronics Co., Ltd.) and the Shuguang "treasure" team left Shuguang to work on the PSVane tubes.  However, I can't comment re: how they might sound in comparison to one-another.   They're sold locally for a bit (MUCH) cheaper than the price advertised on the previous link, so if you say it's worth a listen, I'd be wiling to go grab one when I get back from China on Friday and/or see if I can find one up there somewhere.  I'll toss it in and compare it.  Although I don't think my ears are quite as sensitive to some of the nuances of the changes when tubes are rolled, my experience thus far has been a great deal of fun.   Also, the PSVane still sits along with the D-Getter as the top tubes I managed to get my mitts on.  I've been trying to find some 7N7s or other variants (Frankies etc) over here with no luck.  My local guy is getting me more D-Getters, and I might take one more PSVane home as a backup.

Hope that helps.  Let us know your initial experience re: the Shuguang, and if you'd put it up against a $30ish tube as a contender, I'll go grab one.  If it's not as least as good as a D-Getter in your opinion, then I won't bother.

-Cheers


----------



## FLTWS

Read review and FOLLOWUP
http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_e.html


----------



## Ripper2860

FLTWS said:


> Read review and FOLLOWUP
> http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_e.html



Excellent article.  Thanks!!  I was initially worried after reading, but the FOLLOW-UP allayed my fears.

BRIMAR is now off the list of tubes I must have.


----------



## Freeflap

The shuguang and psvane have great reviews. They are more pricey. My only hesitation is reliability. Unlike the NOS stuff from the 1950's there are a number of psvane and shuguang owners who have noted dead tubes after just one year.


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 8, 2018)

Freeflap said:


> The shuguang and psvane have great reviews. They are more pricey. My only hesitation is reliability. Unlike the NOS stuff from the 1950's there are a number of psvane and shuguang owners who have noted dead tubes after just one year.




My Shuguang was cheap enough, even if i only get a year i don't mind (already dropped it once when i took it out the box, so if it survived that should be ok lol)


Might get a PSVane when money allows, trying for a Osram/Marconi B65 first.

*EDIT* I'll probably get this version, the PSVane successor to the Shuguang CV181-Z:
http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/cv181-t-6sn7-pair/


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 8, 2018)

Thanks, but I already have a stove I can use to reheat my lunch.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 8, 2018)

A quick impression of the ShuGuang Treasure series CV181-Z (6SN7GT) tube...

1. Nice balance top to bottom.  Open airy highs and extended bass with a nice bit of punch/slam.  Over-all well balanced with no leaning towards either a dark or bright sound -- just neutral with nice range.
2. A very nice soundstage with instruments/voices well placed with a nice open soundstage (Sylvania 6SN7W and Frankie are wider)
3. The mids are where this tube is really impressing me.  A very nice and more coherent sound with an uncanny ability to present discrete layers and textures.  Complex passages with multiple instruments is presented clearly with each instrument having it's own separate space and place. Not a mash-up like some tubes.
4. It looks insane in Lyr 3. I'm vacillating between it looking cool and it resembling a gangrenous swollen big toe due to the shape and black-glass coatings.  (I think I'll stick to listening to it as opposed to looking at it.)
5. At first I thought I had a slight crackle in the tube in-between music tracks and thought I might need to re-flow solder on the pins, but after extended listening, this issue has not recurred.

I'll be giving it more time and reporting back, but based on what I hear -- It's something I would buy if the price was right.  

YMMV depending on your gear, ears, mood, and personal preferences.


----------



## ilikepooters

I think the Shuguang black treasure has cooked properly. Up around 150 hours now (Some say they can need 300)

I'd say overall the tube is laid back and warm.

Treble is very detailed but doesn't have that last bit of air and sparkle, but this does mean it's not at all fatiguing for pretty much any song that usually annoys my ears.

Bass is a tad (i don't want to use too strong a word here) maybe, very mildly bloated? I don't mean that to sound negative, it does make the tube very musical and enjoyable though.

Mids i always struggle to describe, but no recess here, vocals sound sublime both male and female.

Imaging and instrument separation are where this tube shine. Not quite as wide as a Brimar orange print but very 3D, good depth and height and just about wide enough to interest soundstage junkies. With regards to separation, even the busiest rock tracks i can distinguish sounds well, some tubes they just end up a bit jumbled.


PS Vane CV181-T and CV181-TII are said to be even more refined, tad more treble sparkle. Better save my pennies 


Ranking my tube stash so far it's a 3-way dead heat for the top:

1= Brimar 6SN7GT (Clear glass, orange print, grey plates)
1= Westinghouse 6SN7GTB (Short bottle, D getter)
1= Shuguang CV181-Z (Black glass, Treasure series)
4 6N1P-EV Nevz
5 Raytheon 6SN7WGT
6  6N8S Foton '53 (Ribbed for her pleasure)
7 6N8S MELZ (Non hole plate)
8 Raytheon 6F8G (Black plates, square getter) 
9 6SN7 Russian Tung-Sol
10 LISST


----------



## Ripper2860

PSvane is now on my list, as well.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Other than by trial and (hopefully) non-error, has anyone confirmed through Schiit or other sources that the CV-181 tubes are recommended/may not go boom with the Lyr3?  They're not identical to 6SN7s, but I can't remember if anyone's confirmed through their own research or a source if these are a good _fit_.  Purportedly through the interwebs CV-181s may cause issues both short and long-term if the amp is not designed for (or can provide) the 50% higher necessary current and some other stuff I don't understand.  Primary source is the reference 6SN7 thread here, but confirmed (or at least mentioned) on other sites re: substitutes for 6SN7s.

I reread what I missed while on vacation, but don't see a mention.  Either way, if @Ripper2860 is the guinea pig, we're good


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> I haven't been following these tubes, and it's entirely possible that the specs have changed with the revisions that have happened over the last several years. But the specs as currently advertised are pretty much identical to a 6SN7GT.
> 
> CV-181TII on the left, and a Sylvania 6SN7GT on the right. A 6SN7GT is 6.3V at 600 ma's (or .6 amps) for the heater (not shown). The nomenclature differs a bit, but it's easy enough to make the translation:



Sweet!  Thanks for confirming.  There's so much (mis)information out there, and I can't make heads or tails of most of it.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 8, 2018)

According to an article referenced in an earlier post, Shuguang has confirmed that what they are saying is a CV-181 is technically not a CV181, but it is actually a 6SN7 from an electrical perspective. All measurements are identical to 6SN7's.

I don't know what they were thinking -- maybe the bottle looks similar to CV181?


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Ripper2860 said:


> According to an article referenced in an earlier post, Shuguang has confirmed that what they are saying is a CV-181 is technically not a CV181, but it is actually a 6SN7 from an electrical perspective. All measurements are identical to 6SN7's.
> 
> I don't know what they were thinking -- maybe the bottle looks similar to CV181?


I missed that, thanks!

So, it's like when my buddy used to tell the ladies he drove a 'vette... A Chevette.

What, did they add some silicon and lipstick and think an expert like you would actually be fooled?   

So it's essentially *THIS* "CV181" that will work, but it's not really a CV181, but a 6SN7 "with curves".  I'm dropping my search for other CV-181s that might be _real,_ and thus might not work properly in the Lyr3.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## earnmyturns

Ripper2860 said:


> PSvane is now on my list, as well.


I'm traveling (sitting in DEN right now waiting for next flight) but this last weekend I spent a lot of quality time with Lyr 3+Psvane 6SN7SE with a Metrum Onyx NOS DAC that Metrum sent me for evaluation (long story). I thought Lyr 3+Psvane 6SN7SE paired well with my Holo Spring (also NOS), and it does, but the pairing with the Onyx is on a different level: liquid, limpid, better instrument separation, great micro-detail. The Spring is more muscular, emphatic, but for extended headphone listening, the smoothness of the Onyx with Lyr 3 tube goodness is something else. 

On other tube-y news, I have another hybrid 6SN7 amp coming my way. Details secret for now


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 8, 2018)

Re: ShuGuang CV181-Z tube ...



Ripper2860 said:


> At first I thought I had a slight crackle in the tube in-between music tracks and thought I might need to re-flow solder on the pins, but after extended listening, this issue has not recurred.



Turns out the intermittent light crackle/static was caused by my cell phone sitting right next to Lyr 3.   




earnmyturns said:


> On other tube-y news, I have another hybrid 6SN7 amp coming my way. Details secret for now


----------



## OldSkool

Ripper2860 said:


> Re: ShuGuang CV181-Z tube ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yessir, I have experienced that myself. 

Curious...Has anyone done a review on the 3-hole Sylvania Bad Boys? How do they sound?​


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 8, 2018)

There are 1 or 2 in the last few weeks' post on this thread.  I have 4 of the 3-Hole Hole Bad Boys and I can tell you that they are very good tubes.  Nice bass extension and slam.  Silky mids.  Nice soundstage with good placement of instruments.  Nicely extended highs without being shrill.  I also have a 2-hole Bad Boy (1951) and it is a coin-toss as to which sounds better 2-hole or 3-hole.  My suggestion is get a true 3-hole BB** , if you can afford it.  If not look for a true value 2-hole BB. **

** What is a true BB (2-hole or 3-hole)?

'51-'53 year of mfg
*Bottom chrome flashing 1/3-1/2 way up the tube
*Rectangular bottom mica
*Rectangular top mica with 3 downward spikes on the short sides
*Black Base
*Black T-plates facing each other with either 2 or 3 rivet holes

'51-'53 is a definite must for the 3-hole.  I'd stay with the same year range for the 2-holes, although some say a 2-hole BB can range from about '48-'54.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Ripper2860

ShuGuang CV181-Z tip:

Use a socket saver.  While the tube itself will just barely fit, I believe the ceramic base touches the tube opening on Lyr 3 and transfers the tube heat to the Lyr 3 case.  Without a socket saver, the Lyr 3 runs super hot with the CV181-Z -- much hotter than with a normal-sized and fitting 6SN7 tube.  After using a socket saver to lift the ShuGuang tube, the case temp was much lower and on-par with temps when using  a plain ole 6SN7 tube.  

Thus endeth the lesson.


----------



## OldSkool

Ripper2860 said:


> Hope this helps.



It does, indeed. Thank you.


----------



## FLTWS (Oct 9, 2018)

RE: Socket Savers

I found these work nicer than others I’ve tried, not overly tight on either side. Plenty of room in the LYR3 opening so no contact. Currently burning in my Psvane CV 181 TII’s matched pair. Purchased 4 of these savers so I’m good for future developments in …






https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Octal-EL34-GZ34-KT88-6V6-6L6-5Z3-6SN7-Gold-Plated-Tube-Socket-Saver-Base/283121971623?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=2&asc=20160323102634&meid=937e24ea74134ee9beea7ab9616a5317&pid=100623&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=283117591293&itm=283121971623&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1


----------



## Ripper2860

Great minds think alike.  Mine looks exactly like the one you recommended.  As stated, fits nicely inside Lyr and secure mounts on either end.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 9, 2018)

^^^ I'm a given, but several others come to mind ...

Unfortunately, you did not make the cut.


----------



## Freeflap

I am approaching 100 hours on the foton. Definitely improved. Not sure it's out of the "friend zone" yet. still a bit etchy in the mids and upper bass. Not as clean as others so far. will put back in the oven to bake for awhile...


----------



## buonassi

Ripper2860 said:


> ShuGuang CV181-Z tip:
> 
> Use a socket saver.  While the tube itself will just barely fit, I believe the ceramic base touches the tube opening on Lyr 3 and transfers the tube heat to the Lyr 3 case.  Without a socket saver, the Lyr 3 runs super hot with the CV181-Z -- much hotter than with a normal-sized and fitting 6SN7 tube.  After using a socket saver to lift the ShuGuang tube, the case temp was much lower and on-par with temps when using  a plain ole 6SN7 tube.
> 
> Thus endeth the lesson.


My experience exactly with the Northern electric tube


----------



## buonassi

So, I was very surprised tonight.  I've never heard the HD600 with Lyr 3 until tonight - well other than a few minutes here and there.  When they say that it scales with better amps, this is no joke.  These things were phenomenal, simply outstanding tonally, dynamically, you name it.  No, not the best, but for $288 brand new, you'd be hard pressed to find a better match anywhere near that price.  The only real quibble I have is the warm smooth bass.  It's a little humped at 100hz and overly warm there.... so a tad of bloat... just a smidge.  But I dare not touch that area with EQ.    

Now I understand why all the friends on that other forum sport wood over HD650 and schiit amps. 

*Using halo getter, pot at 1:30 - 2:00 (low gain cause it sounded cleaner, more pristine to my ears).*  Dac puts out 2 volts, but I drop 6db at my EQ software.  I only use EQ for surgical treble correction above 3 khz (to eliminate that very slightly metallic sheen the HD600 can present).  Otherwise, neutral city baby.   Below presents all treble frequencies within 1/8th octave as perfect equal loudness (within a db I'd guess) with controllable sine sweep tones/noise.  

combine this with a very resolving and layered tube, and WOWSA!


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 10, 2018)

Schiit's getting ridiculous:






I'm guessing this isn't what Schiit had in mind when they suggested we can use adaptors 






The Osram L63's i haven't had a proper listen yet, just loaded up the adaptor and chucked in the tube tester to make sure no cross-wired or shorts, had a listen for a couple of minutes and... yes. Based on an initial 2 minute quick listed, they are up there.
Will have a proper go later when missus stops hogging the TV (use it as my PC monitor)


----------



## Monahans67 (Oct 11, 2018)

Removed


----------



## Ripper2860

ilikepooters said:


> Schiit's getting ridiculous:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's official.  You have gone completely bonkers!!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> It's official.  You have gone completely bonkers!!


You haven't seen bonkers until you've seen this in one of the the Felix Elise threads...



 


And yes, in case you are wondering, I'm pretty certain that the power transformer ate itself.


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 10, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> You haven't seen bonkers until you've seen this in one of the the Felix Elise threads....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




LOL i don't thin k i'll be going that far.

The L63's only draw 300mA heater current so both together same as a single B65 / 6SN7


Now about those L63's..... oh boy  If Lyr 3 has a "party mode" these tubes enable it.
Started having a proper listen now the missus has cleared off to bed.


I'll compare to the ShuGuang CV181-Z seeing as that's the most recent tube i've listened to.

Bass is a tad warm but well defined, Mids are more lush and full bodied, Treble has that extra little bit of air and sparkle that the ShuGuang is lacking, the treble extends a little bit further as well. he decay is on another level, if i had any emotions the decay ought to bring a tear to my eye. Soundstage wise it's very 3D, image a tad better than the ShuGuang, these aren't at all burned in yet so i expect the width to develop a bit more. Currently as wide as the ShuGuang but not as wide as a Brimar clear glass orange print.


So far considering not properly burned in these tubes are blowing me away  If they are truly representative of a proper Marconi/Osram B65 (2 x L63 = B65) then i can really see why B65's sell for so much given their rarity and sound. But for me personally £400 for a B65 is going a bit far in a £600 headphone amp. You can get pretty near to this sound for less than $100 in american tubes.


If i can get a proper Marconi B65 for a good price i'll give it a go to see if it's the same sound as 2 L63's Then if so i'll sell it and recoup some cash lol


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Dude, quit staring at that guy's tube...


----------



## earnmyturns

Ripper2860 said:


> It's official.  *We* have gone completely bonkers!!


Fixed typo.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

earnmyturns said:


> Fixed typo.


I ‘blame’ you for the PSVane...

Thanks again!


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 11, 2018)

bit the bullet... damn my wallet hurts 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-X-B65-MARCONI-METAL-BASE-MWT-TUBE-6SN7GT-MWT-TUBE-USED-TUBES-C2-19/382578650912?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I suppose someone needs to be the guinea pig


----------



## ProfFalkin

ilikepooters said:


> bit the bullet... damn my wallet hurts
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-X-B65-MARCONI-METAL-BASE-MWT-TUBE-6SN7GT-MWT-TUBE-USED-TUBES-C2-19/382578650912?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> I suppose someone needs to be the guinea pig



You saw the crack in the glass at the base of the tube, right?


----------



## ProfFalkin

(I'm just messing with you...)


----------



## Rowethren

Holy Schiit £500!  They must be better than sex for that price lol!


----------



## Zachik

ilikepooters said:


> bit the bullet... damn my wallet hurts
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-X-B65-MARCONI-METAL-BASE-MWT-TUBE-6SN7GT-MWT-TUBE-USED-TUBES-C2-19/382578650912?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> I suppose someone needs to be the guinea pig


Holy Schiit!!! These tubes are so damn expensive! 
I truly hope it sound like the best thing ever to you.


----------



## Zachik

ProfFalkin said:


> You saw the crack in the glass at the base of the tube, right?


Dude, you are a bad person!


----------



## ilikepooters

Haven't bought them for keeps, just to audition them to see if they sound same as 2 x L63's + adaptor which can be had far cheaper.

If they do sound different (better than L63's) then i might keep one


----------



## ProfFalkin

Zachik said:


> Dude, you are a bad person!


It's a hobby.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Yeah, and Jeffrey Dahmer said "It's food."


I don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## ilikepooters

Rowethren said:


> Holy Schiit £500!  They must be better than sex for that price lol!





bcowen said:


> They need to _perform_ sex for that price.
> 
> What scares me is that whatever 'Pooter has appears to be contagious.  I just ordered one of these. But I'm sure it will stop there.  Yup.




I think its a good idea because 6J5 and equivalents seem to be typically older vintage than the single envelope. Which potentially means they were made before manufacturers started cutting costs.

Also there would be less crosstalk being in separate envelopes.

Thats my theory anyway


----------



## Rowethren

If it feels good do it!


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Ripper2860 said:


> A quick impression of the ShuGuang Treasure series CV181-Z (6SN7GT) tube...
> ....{snip}.....4. It looks insane in Lyr 3. I'm vacillating between it looking cool and it resembling a gangrenous swollen big toe due to the shape and black-glass coatings.  (I think I'll stick to listening to it as opposed to looking at it.)
> 5. At first I thought I had a slight crackle in the tube in-between music tracks and thought I might need to re-flow solder on the pins, but after extended listening, this issue has not recurred...{snip}....


Have you posted an image of it at work? I'm imagining it looking like a morchella mushroom.
So, what I'm picking up here is that one *can* modify and/or repair tubes within its vacuum-glass-bulb enclosure. With a soldering iron. Liquefying solder points.
Christ.
Nice.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Rowethren said:


> If it feels good do it!


A movie quote!!!!! And a cheesy & sleazy 1976 one at that. +1 for @Rowethren .


----------



## ScubaMan2017

ilikepooters said:


> Schiit's getting ridiculous:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...just did a spit-take on a Friday morning. THOSE photos are awesome... Frankensteining at its finest? This proto-tuber thinks so. You made my morning...


----------



## Rowethren

ScubaMan2017 said:


> A movie quote!!!!! And a cheesy & sleazy 1976 one at that. +1 for @Rowethren .



That film looks amazing lol... Sadly I was just quoting from Peep Show. Although that is an amazing comedy!


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Rowethren said:


> That film looks amazing lol... Sadly I was just quoting from Peep Show. Although that is an amazing comedy!


Oh it is. It is. My wife took me to THAT when we were checking-each-other-out back in 1989-95. And other flicks... Quadraphenia... Tommy...Flesh Gordon.... Oh those winter nights at the Student Union Building at UBC....


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

ScubaMan2017 said:


> *1989-95.* And other flicks... Quadraphenia... Tommy...Flesh Gordon.... Oh those winter nights at the Student Union Building at UBC....


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 12, 2018)

Rolled back in a Brimar orange print clear glass (One of the 3 i recenty snaggeg on ebay, this is the most used of the 3) to compare to the Osram L63's and i've got to say they sound remarkably similar.

I think British tubes have a distinctive "house sound" sounding quite rich and laid back but also detailed in a smooth way. I like the British "tubeyness"

Reminds me of the Mullard E88CC's i tried back in the Lyr 1 days but way more open sounding like the soundstage of a good Siemens E88CC / CCa.


I've also tried the Westinghouse branded 5692 as pictured below:






Note the 337 marking, i think Westinghouse actually did make 5692's if only in small quantity, guessing they bought tooling from GE or RCA. There is one still for sale on ebay for a reasonable price and i think it's well worth the money.


This tube is also the real deal when it comes to sound, it's not unlike the Brimars or Osrams, the mids being a tad more upfront and not as liquid, but the tube sounds very wide compared to the RCA Red base 5692 which i found sounded very solid if a tad unexciting.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> You're having way too much fun here. So I figured I'd barge in uninvited and all.
> 
> Emptied _my _wallet of its $23.70 (including shipping) with this:
> 
> ...



Braggart!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 12, 2018)

The W's all have a nice rod and according to the wife -- so do I.  


Seriously -- I suspect the tube with the freestanding support rod is a Sylvania 6SN7W doppelganger.  Nice score!!  

Perhaps if you ever actually listen to the W's that you purchased recently, you could provide a comparison.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

bcowen said:


> Emptied _my _wallet of its $23.70 (including shipping) with this:



Guys... remind me again, because my math may have failed me the first few times I counted.  How many tubes does the lyr 3 use to operate?


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> You're having way too much fun here. So I figured I'd barge in uninvited and all.
> 
> Emptied _my _wallet of its $23.70 (including shipping) with this:
> 
> _(FrankenBrutus)_ is in the CBI now getting some warmth...be interesting to hear what it sounds like. But all in all, even if FrankenBrutus doesn't make the cut, I got two genuine, nice testing Frankies for $11.85 a piece.


He shoots...
.
.
.
.
He SCORES!!!!!!

This kid is a phenom...


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead (Oct 13, 2018)

I've been w/o anything but a phone (Tidal DLs) and IEMs all week while traveling.  1st world problems, I know.

I have had a glorious morning.  I slept in my own bed last night, woke up well-rested, and had a peaceful 4 hours of uninterrupted music before my bride awoke to provide me with the list of things _we_ needed to get done today.

That time has not gone to waste... I caught up on my head-fi and got to do some relaxed listening.  I am, by nature, a morning person.  It's when my head is most clear, and I do my best thinking.

What's important is that I finally got a chance to tick off some recommendations.

I listened to:

Rodrigo Y Gabriela's 9 Dead Alive and their self-titled album through the Lyr3 + D-Getter => HD820 - Just incredible.  Read the news, posted a few snarky comments to the boards, and finished my e-mails.
I think it was @earnmyturns that put me onto them.  Thanks!  Your recommendations in both tubes and tunes are spot on!  I had listened to them before after a post, but not through this gear.  Well worth it.

After that musicgasm, I wanted to swap out one tube (one tube only, Vasili) to goof around.... why not?!

I switched to the Jadis (manufactured by Shu Guang).  I was curious since we'd been posting recently about Shu Guang (or Shuguang) how their current tubes stack up.  I admit that I kind of forgot about this little (not really) guy.  I had taken heed and got all the tubes over 100 hours.  When this tube got out of the rotation for burn-in, I stuck it on a shelf and focused on the PSVane and D-Getter.   So, I had really only given it a couple hours pre-burn-in previously.

I wasn't doing any A/B or _serious_ listening.  I wanted to relax, have my coffee and continue to catch up on the world.  However, I did want to compare it to the D-Getter, so I thought I'd just listen to the first few tracks of 9 Dead Alive again.  Next thing I knew, the album was over.  It may have been the choice of tunes, the rested mind, or the tube, but I did not "think" about the music.  I was in bliss.  I got goosebumps at one point in a song called Sunday Neurosis.  It's a good tube.  I'll keep it.

I don't think I'm going to try and find a "favorite" tube.  That could be an exercise in futility.  I am happy that I know I have 3 very good tubes.  Now I have to work my way through the rest.  Again, 1st world problems.  

Side note - I've got the EMI solved with this set-up, but has anyone else experienced a ground (maybe) issue w/ their Lyr3?  There's always been a slight hum on high gain with almost any tube, but when I place my hand on the chassis, it increases.  If I place my hand on the chassis AND my laptop (MacBook Pro) it goes dead silent.  Any thoughts?  The only thing plugged into mains is the Lyr.  Laptop is on battery => USB to Lyr3 MB card.


----------



## Ripper2860

Welcome back!  Sounds like a perfect start to the day.  Wise move on the search for the holy-grail of tubes.  If you have 2-3 that you really enjoy, call it mission accomplished.  I have and only wished I'd done so sooner.   

As for the hum issue -- that's a bizarre one and will leave it to those more well versed in troubleshooting and isolating those pesky hum issues.


----------



## earnmyturns

Treason?


----------



## Ripper2860

More like 'slumming'.


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## ilikepooters (Oct 13, 2018)

Got a short response from Jason at Schiit regarding my heater current question.



> Sorry for the slow response. We've been making changes to support to ensure that we don't miss tickets like yours again.
> 
> With respect to your question: I'm afraid not. Please don't use any tube other than the recommended tubes in Lyr 3.




Short response, but tubes like ECC32  (or proper CV181's) that draw 950mA of heater current are a no-no.

ShuGuang CV181-Z is not a proper CV181 reading the spec sheet so safe to use:

http://grantfidelity.com/site/files/shuguang treasure tube spec cv-181.pdf


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Oct 13, 2018)

buonassi said:


> Guys... remind me again, because my math may have failed me the first few times I counted. How many tubes does the lyr 3 use to operate?



Only one ...


at a time!!  


And if all one needed was one type of burger, why does McD's have several?


----------



## wwmhf

Emptied _my _wallet of its $23.70 (including shipping) with this:



From the seller's pictures, I could see 3 Frankies for sure and a possible 4th.  Got them today, and there were in fact 3 Frankies, 2 mini Frankies, an imposter, and a surprise. 2 of the genuine Frankies tested out very nicely with NOS-level GM and well balanced triodes. The 3rd not so good. One triode was fine, and the other caused the Hickok's meter needle to bop all over the place. Oh well. Trash needed emptied anyway. The 2 mini Frankies tested nicely too. Then the surprise.  It has the plates and getter of a Frankie, but the bottom mica is a rounded rectangle rather than a racetrack. That's normally the telltale sign of an imposter, except that this imposter has an additional copper rod support as well as some additional spring supports for the top mica. A ruggedized Frankentube? As if the 7N7 wasn't a ruggedized design anyway. It's in the CBI now getting some warmth...be interesting to hear what it sounds like. But all in all, even if FrankenBrutus doesn't make the cut, I got two genuine, nice testing Frankies for $11.85 a piece. 



[/QUOTE]

I wish I can "Empty" my wallet like this!


----------



## Ripper2860

I just wish I had a wallet...


----------



## Freeflap

So just switched out the foton. Back to a westinghouse top O halo getter. The foton had a wider soundstage and depth, but lacked that creamy velvety tube goodness. The foton didn't do anything wrong, but it's going to stay in the friend zone tube for now. Not ready to have a relationship with that tube. 

going to be listening to the westy for the rest of the afternoon. then switch back to a franken for comparison. 

am looking for an all in one dac /amp for my kid. doesn't want a tube. am thinking about giving him my jds element. or maybe look for a used audio-gd 11.28? any thoughts?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 13, 2018)

Maybe it's for the best.  Who knows where a $15 Russian tube has been.


----------



## buonassi

bcowen said:


> If you're going to dinner at McDonalds all you need is $10, so why have all that other money?


touche my good man...   seems both of our math abilities are lacking!  or more precisely our math sensibilities, ha ha ha


----------



## earnmyturns

The seller of the Apex Peak I just got threw in a few interesting tubes. This one is especially sweet on the Peak. According to Brent Jessee's site, it appears to be a ruggedized Sylvania 6SN7W type: _"This type indicates a military spec tube that was not made for consumer use. These usually have extra support posts on the plate structure, heavy mica spacers, and brown micanol bases. These also have the famous triangular shaped black plates. They have been ruggedized to withstand shock, the brown low loss micanol base resists mold, mildew, and fungus growth, and they can withstand heat even if used upside down."_ Not planning to run it upside down, though.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> This tube, that tube, whatever tube....at the end of the day this is all that matters. Those magical moments when the stars align and everything is just 'right'. Thanks for sharing!
> 
> On the hum issue, if the amplitude changes when you touch the chassis it's more likely to be an RFI/EMI induced problem than a ground loop. Is your Lyr sitting in close proximity to a fluorescent lamp or another component that is either wireless or has a good sized transformer in it?



Agreed!

Thanks very much for the thoughts on the noise.  It sounds a bit like cicadas.   It increases in amplitude when touching the Lyr3 chassis.  It only increases in amplitude when I touch the top of the chassis, not the sides or bottom*.  IN SOME SITUATIONS...

*Lyr3s must  provide consent before you touch them on the bottom.  It's the law, people (and it's just common courtesy). 

I tried typing this up in a few ways to describe the troubleshooting process and it was a mess.  I may have to create a matrix (seriously).  I won't type up all the iterations I went through, but... it's making me (more) nutty.  

What may be interesting is that with the Lyr3 connected to the mains and nothing else:

Hands off - Cicadas
Hand on chassis (switches or volume knob too) - louder cicadas
One hand on top of chassis + touch rear inputs / outputs or the inboard screw next to the USB input - reduced the noise.
Chassis + touching power switch =>  "tick".

Note, this is ONLY with the input switched to external.

I'll see what other gizmos may be too close.  I thought I had all the gremlins removed when I moved the step-down transformer several weeks ago after the craziness with the 6F8G and the adapter...  I've been fooling with external DACs, so this "new" situation only became apparent when I started using the external input.

Time to build a Faraday cage


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> Hmmmmm. So then if you're using the internal DAC, no hum?
> 
> Do you have a cheater plug?  I never advocate permanently removing/cheating an earth (safety) ground from a component that's designed to use it, but no big risk just to test it with the ground lifted and see if it makes any difference. I don't think what you're describing is a ground loop, but it's possible you have noise riding along the house earth ground.



Thank you!  I'll try that, and you and I are heading to the same possible conclusion.

Correct.  The symptom is present only with the switch set to the RCA inputs when the Lyr is the only thing in the chain.  Mains=> Lyr3 => Headphones.  Of course it's only for troubleshooting with nothing else connected.  If I hold my nose just right and squint, I can hear it a bit at mid volume (high gain) with the switch set to the MB input.  When the volume is increased to max, the static from the MB board takes the stage over the cicada-like noise.   That observation is only for the purposes of troubleshooting and has no effect whatsoever on listening enjoyment.  It's a data point, but it's a non-issue. 

Once I connect anything else (either through USB to the MBP or using RCAs to an external DAC (I've tried battery and mains powered DACs); the severity of the situation changes, and methods to alleviate it also change.  When anything else is connected either through USB or RCAs the situation can change slightly.

Quick examples -

Lyr 3 only.  See previous post and clarity above.
Lyr3 => USB => MBP (running on battery) - I can touch the MPB chassis AND/OR the rear inputs / outputs - Dead quiet (While touching Lyr3 top of chassis)
Lyr3 => RCAs => Battery powered DAC - Touch the barrels of the RCAs or output jacks - Dead quiet (While touching top of Lyr3 chassis also).  Test sequence example
  -- Cicadas
  -- Touch top of chassis - louder cicadas
  -- Remove hand - cicadas
  -- Touch barrels of RCA input cables (They're metal) - No change - cicadas
  -- Remove hand - No change - cicadas
  -- Touch output plugs - No change - cicadas
  -- Remove hand - No change - cicadas
  -- Touch top of chassis with left hand -- loud cicadas
  -- Touch barrels of input cables with right hand - Dead silence
  -- Remove both hands - back to cicadas

It is perplexing.  If I listed all the iterations and combinations of "things I've been touching to see if they make the noises go away " I'd likely get banned from Head-Fi.

I'll get it sorted eventually.  I'm still convinced there's goblins and ghouls in my mains (in addition to a Schiit ton of EMI / RFI).  I'm not paranoid if they're really out to get me... am I?


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

Just swapped out the socket in my bedroom where my 2nd rig is going. Used one of these, much more substantial all the way around compared to the builder quality "standard" unit.


----------



## buonassi

All this talk of cicadas has got me a little hungry.


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## ilikepooters (Oct 14, 2018)

I'm going to try and take Frankentubing to the next level....



Going to see if i can acquire some British 6C5G's which are 'sensibly equivalent' to an L63 which is half of a B65.

They look a bit different utilising a mesh plate structure, might look cool 






6C5G's were made in the good ol' US of A, too.


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## Ripper2860

ilikepooters said:


> They look a bit different utilising a mesh plate structure, might look cool



I'm sure they will look very cool -- once the smoke from Lyr 3 clears.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> Trying to get a grip on the 'chicadas' here.   I think I understand what you're describing, just scratching my head at what may be causing it. Possible that it's a vibration induced electrical noise?  Have you checked your mains outlet that the Lyr is plugged into? Not sure how comfortable you are with house wiring, so if you're uncomfortable don't proceed. If you are, I'd pull out the outlet (after removing power at the breaker panel), and check first that it's wired correctly -- black (hot) wire to gold screw/short front slot, white (neutral) wire to silver screw/long front slot, and green wire to green ground screw. Then check the tightness of the wiring connections. If the outlet is wired like most US residential in the last 20 years (as all mine were), it's likely wired by use of a hole on the back. The bare Romex is inserted and then held by a spring tension metal clip inside. Crappiest electrical connection that exists, IMO. I much prefer the type below where the wire is inserted through a hole, but then the screw is used to tighten a 1/4" clamping plate onto the wire. Way more electrical surface contact, can be tightened completely and won't ever come loose...or vibrate. May seem like overkill, but after all is said and done what are we really listening to?  Electricity. The Lyr just converts it into a format that our headphones can turn into music.   I won't go off the deep end here by saying that ALL outlets in that circuit branch should be looked at and/or replaced...only I'm _that_ anal.  The most important one obviously is the one the Lyr is plugged into.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00134AW5K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


LOL!  re: the cicadas, it's about as close as I can describe the sound/noise.  I'll get to the bottom of it.  

I'm to the point where I'm just treating the symptom for now. It's simple enough.

The physical connections are fine, but I do want to try lifting the ground to see if that helps.  My guess is that it will.  I'm in HKG, so our wiring is a bit different, but I understand the wiring here, and in the US.  I'm very comfortable with it, but I probably won't swap anything out here (rental).   

Once again, I truly appreciate the ideas.


----------



## earnmyturns

A non-Schiit stack with tube borrowed from Lyr 3. The whole thing sounds sublime, and so it should given the total price. Lyr 3+Psvane 6SN7-SE was very good, but I'm starting to think that Apex + Volcano LPS (originally 4x Lyr-3 price, although I got it used for 2x) may be my next headamp peak (pun sort of intended). No worry for Schiit there, though, the Peak is no longer made and they are more rare for sale than hen's teeth. Mine is serial #22. If I wasn't such a sucker for exotic gear, the following would be likely very close and way cheaper: Allo USBridge streamer ($162.50), new (v2) Gumby ($1249), Lyr 3 ($499), Psvane 6SN7-SE ($200) = $2,110.50 (+ tax, shipping). A well-informed source told me that Gumby v2 is a worthy competitor for the Metrum Onyx, at 1/2 the price, but I'm kind of smitten by NOS DAC sound with hybrid tube amps and headphones.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

earnmyturns said:


> A non-Schiit stack with tube borrowed from Lyr 3.



Gorgeous rig.  Thanks for the impressions!


----------



## ilikepooters

Possible Westinghouse GTB short bottle D getter: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Westingh...h=item4d7dceb728:g:eC0AAOSwMFFbq-WE:rk:9:pf:0


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## ilikepooters (Oct 14, 2018)

Just been listening to the Osram L63's for the last hour, they have really opened up, most spacious tubes i've heard yet in Lyr 3 (a touch wider than Brimar) and still only about 48 hours of burn in.

I'm finding i can crank the volume up another 10% with these too, nice and smooth, natural sounding and non-fatiguing. If someone put a gun to my head and said i can only use one tube (or tubes in this case) for the rest of my Lyr 3 days, i'd pick these in a heartbeat.


More excited than ever to get my hands on the Marconi B65 now.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> A little higher anode impedance than a 6J5, but the rest of the specs are nearly identical.  Same gain even. Glad I didn't buy any 6J5's in anticipation of the adapters arrival...these look so much more cool.


So, 6C5G tubes work in Lyr 3 without any adapter or concern?


----------



## ilikepooters

Zachik said:


> So, 6C5G tubes work in Lyr 3 without any adapter or concern?



Need adaptor because they are single triode, so need 2 tubes.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> Will work without concern for the Lyr's health, but you'll need FrankenDapter:



Also a 6SN7 socket saver cos Lyr 3 cover gets in way.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 15, 2018)

Nope.  Gotta draw the line somewhere.  I've spent enough time and $$ on single tube rolling.  No way I'm opening the door to rolling 2 tubes.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Will work without concern for the Lyr's health, but you'll need FrankenDapter:





ilikepooters said:


> Also a 6SN7 socket saver cos Lyr 3 cover gets in way.


Oh. Thought it is a direct 6SN7 drop-in... or worst case - simple 7N7-like adapter. Now 2 tubes are required?!    Pass...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 15, 2018)

On 2nd thought ...

Can I listen to 2x 6SN7's at the same time?  That's the only way I can possibly listen to all the tubes I currently own and even then it would take quite a while to get through my stash.

Or maybe I can cook one while listening to the other ?  



bcowen said:


> Then you'll miss out on an invitation to join the _Schiit Lyr 3 Cool Looking Tube Rollers_ thread.  Have it your way.



Maybe so, but I'd definitely be a shoe-in for the 'More Sense than Money' club.

BTW --  My ShuGangrene CV181-Z treasure is a cool looking tube.  So there!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Ripper2860 said:


> On 2nd thought ...
> 
> Can I listen to 2x 6SN7's at the same time?



Buy a 2nd Lyr 3 and run them like monoblocks


----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> Will work without concern for the Lyr's health, but you'll need FrankenDapter:



Another unusual looking (french) tube for that adaptor:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-X-6J5-...h=item5913b67d3e:g:Q5wAAOSwdMRbuJl2:rk:1:pf:0


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## Ripper2860 (Oct 15, 2018)

Ummm.  No.  They look more like ...  

You did search for AUDIO tubes, right?


----------



## ilikepooters

They're the right shape if you need to smuggle them for any reason, maybe another way of hoarding to keep the stash safe?


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen

ilikepooters said:


> Another unusual looking (french) tube for that adaptor:
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-X-6J5-...h=item5913b67d3e:g:Q5wAAOSwdMRbuJl2:rk:1:pf:0



Unusual for sure. Cool? Not.

In fact, it's butt ugly.  Ooops.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 15, 2018)

Power cord sold separately.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

buonassi said:


> All this talk of cicadas has got me a little hungry.


...for me, it’s when Les Stroud (Survivorman, on the Outdoor Channel) talks about fire-roasted  witchitygrubs...


----------



## ilikepooters

NOS Westinghouse GTB D getter:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Westingh...h=item2ab8c182f7:g:VtQAAOSwMJVbxTjP:rk:3:pf:0


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## ilikepooters (Oct 17, 2018)

One for @bcowen with the adaptor incoming: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6J5GT-D-...ve-metal-base-radio-6J5G-VT-94-D/232948341936

I think with the code on the tubes starting 312 they are maybe Sylvania? Never seen a Sylvania with round plates before, could be worth a punt.

*EDIT* Might even be a cheap way of listening to a Tung Sol round plate seeing as they look like remarkably like a Tung Sol 6J5 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...=item3d769abed5:g:ZiMAAOSwQVpazRfy:rk:10:pf:0


----------



## Ripper2860

ilikepooters said:


> One for @bcowen with the adaptor incoming: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6J5GT-D-...ve-metal-base-radio-6J5G-VT-94-D/232948341936
> 
> I think with the code on the tubes starting 312 they are maybe Sylvania? Never seen a Sylvania with round plates before, could be worth a punt.
> 
> *EDIT* Might even be a cheap way of listening to a Tung Sol round plate seeing as they look like remarkably like a Tung Sol 6J5 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...=item3d769abed5:g:ZiMAAOSwQVpazRfy:rk:10:pf:0




312 is definitely Sylvania.  Also -- most (if not all) 7AF7 tubes are round plate Sylvania. So Sylvie has/had a few in their stable of tubes.


----------



## ilikepooters

Ripper2860 said:


> 312 is definitely Sylvania.  Also -- most (if not all) 7AF7 tubes are round plate Sylvania. So Sylvie has/had a few in their stable of tubes.



Ahhh. I've only been looking at 6SN7 types so only seen the bad boys and that sort of thing.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 18, 2018)

OK.  It's been a while since I've made a Jazz recommendation, but I'm am so thoroughly enjoying this one, that I must share.  It is very well recorded album.

**  It really, really sounds good with the seemingly rare gray glass 40's Philco (National Union) round-plate 7N7 tube that was in a multi-tube lot I bought to score a Frankie.  A truly unexpected surprise.  

Anyhow ...

Artist: Dave Holland Quintet
Album: Prime Directive

Available on Tidal and Spotify

Tube Pr0n peek ...


----------



## earnmyturns

Ripper2860 said:


> OK. It's been a while since I've made a Jazz recommendation, but I'm am so thoroughly enjoying this one, that I must share. It is very well recorded album.


Since you keep teasing us with fancy tubes  I listened to the classic Dave Holland Quintet live several times in the early 00s. Drummers changed, mostly it was Nate Smith (which I heard playing wonderfully at SFJAZZ with Danilo Pérez, Avishai Cohen -- the trumpeter, not the bassist, Chris Potter, and Larry Grenadier). The rest of the old Quintet was the same: Potter on sax, Eubanks on trombone, Nelson on vibes, and Holland of course leading from his double bass. For creative post-bop, it's hard to do better than that Dave Holland Quintet. Another album with Kilson (not Smith) that is very worthy is _Not for Nothin'_. And of course you should explore Holland's big band and octet of the same vintage, like _What Goes Around_ and _Overtime_. You might guess I'm a Dave Holland fan, and I totally am. Every time I can manage it, I go hear him live. Last year, I even timed a trip to Europe to catch him in Zurich (with Anour Brahem, Django Bates, and Jack DeJohnette). I've been very lucky to hear of all these great musicians live once or more, in some cases a lot more.


----------



## earnmyturns

Having taken plunge for that exotic, discontinued Apex Peak hybrid amp, I plugged in the lovely Psvane 6SN7-SE from the Lyr 3. I'm getting such great dynamics and separation but I'm wondering whether this is placebo or real. Which would require stopping listening to the music for a while, letting the tube cool, moving it back to the Lyr 3, letting it warm up for 1h or so to be fair, and play the same music. *So much work!*


----------



## Ripper2860

Dave Holland's 'Not for Nothing' has been purchased and ripped to my media streamer PC.  I will be enjoying it tomorrow evening.  After that it will be DH Quintet's 'Extended Play -- Live at Birdland'.  I must dig further into his catalog as I yet to find anything I did not like!!

Yes -- tube rolling done properly is work and time consuming.  There are 'critical evaluation listening' days and then there are 'forget it, I'll just enjoy the music' days.  I find the latter far more fun, but far too infrequent.  

BTW -- Did you get the Apex Volcano power supply with your amp?


----------



## earnmyturns

Ripper2860 said:


> BTW -- Did you get the Apex Volcano power supply with your amp?


Yes.


----------



## Rowethren

My Bad Boys have arrived and they are absolutely pristine! Now to get them all warmed up and ready to go!


----------



## Wes S (Oct 19, 2018)

Rowethren said:


> My Bad Boys have arrived and they are absolutely pristine! Now to get them all warmed up and ready to go!


Damn!  Beautiful looking real bad boy! That thing looks brand new!  I am back and still rocking the real bad boy, myself.  I just could not stay away. . .


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Tell me about it. I had to give-up crack in order to support my tube-rolling habit.


----------



## Rowethren

bcowen said:


> Sweet!!!
> 
> My Bad Boy has risen to share the top billing in my overblown stash with Frankentube.  I like them both equally even though there are some differences in the presentation.
> 
> Of course @Ripper2860 now has to stumble across some mutant Franken version so I have to go find 20 or 30 of those.  Sigh.



Look on the plus side, at least when the Mjolnir 3 comes out you will have plenty of tubes to try out


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S (Oct 19, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Well look on the bright side. At least you still have your alcohol, cocaine, hydrocodone, and cannabis dependencies to help out.


Yes please!  Those all make the music sound better, almost as much as a good tube


----------



## Monahans67

Can someone please help me find a real Bad Boy like the one above.  I am not sure what exactly to look for and don't want to get ripped off on ebay.  I would appreciate any help you could give me.  Thanks.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Monahans67 said:


> Can someone please help me find a real Bad Boy like the one above.  I am not sure what exactly to look for and don't want to get ripped off on ebay.  I would appreciate any help you could give me.  Thanks.


Can someone help @Monahans67 out? I’m rocking my little Vali with satisfaction...


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 19, 2018)

I've been cooking the Brimar black glass for a couple days. Managed to get this NOS testing at 2900/2900 micromohs (2.9/2.9mA/v) perfectly balanced.






Sounds identical to the clear glass orange labels which is not surprising given they share the same structure (except the black glass and micanol base)

The only other Brimars i've seen that look like this with the black glass and micanol base are usually the military labelled CV1988 (also labelled GTY) But the black glass starts a tad higher up from the base.

All in all cracking tube and only cost me £92.30 with postage. So slightly cheaper than i'd expect to pay for a NOS (to this extent) orange label clear glass.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

Thanks.  Sent seller a message. He says it is 1951 31st week.    Code on tube is 312 5131


----------



## Monahans67

Hey Bill you think it is ok to buy it.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

Thanks Bill. I bought the 2 hole.


----------



## Monahans67

The Aeon is out for delivery today.  I am pretty excited but it will have to be really good to beat the sound of the Alpha Prime I bought from you.  I am loving the sound from the Prime.


----------



## Rowethren

I would love to claim this as my own work but this is what I used as a guide to find my Bad Boys. 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/page-108#post-14480030


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## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Rowethren

bcowen said:


> Good deal on the 2-hole. That's the better deal, and the more I look at that 3-hole tube I have some concerns with the getter flashing. Looks to be the _right_ flashing, just that it's very thin and almost transparent which may indicate a problem.
> 
> And congrats on the Aeon's!  You have a bigger treat in store than that Bad Boy.



You mean my Bad Boy?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

Thanks guys.  Ripper warned me not to trust Bill.  So far he has been a pleasure to deal with.  Guess Ripper needs to reevaluate his opinions. LOL Of course he won't.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

Monahans67 said:


> The Aeon is out for delivery today.  I am pretty excited but it will have to be really good to beat the sound of the Alpha Prime I bought from you.  I am loving the sound from the Prime.


I was listening with my Alpha Prime last night, and as I have stated in the past, the real bad boy, is a perfect match.


----------



## Freeflap

I have both 3 hole and 2 hole bad boys. They are both excellent. Can't say if one is better than the other, but both are on the top of my list.


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 19, 2018)

Were there any WGT bad boys? I mean is it possible they used the same gubbins but with the ruggedized WGT construction?I've spotted one with 3 holes in the black T plates and a '52 code (If they were made in the 50's, could be 40's or 60's?) Code is 152 so i figure 15th week of a year ending with a 2.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 19, 2018)

Monahans67 said:


> Hey Bill you think it is ok to buy it.



If you don't buy it, I will.  It's on my watchlist.  

BTW -- The 312 specifies it is Sylvania-made.  I have a Philco 3-hole BB and a Sylvie and there's no difference.  This tube meets all of the parameters.

J/K  -- I have 3x 3-hole BB's and a 2-hole BB, so I'm good...  for now.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 19, 2018)

bcowen said:


> The 152 code if arranged vertically with the 1 on top would be the 52nd week of '51.



Yep it's vertical  I think it might be worth a punt. I have some great tubes (No Sylvania's though) to compare it to so even if it's nothing like a badboy i can be a guinea pig to see how it stacks up to my other tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 19, 2018)

I have Sylvania 50's WGT and WGTA's and while they are good sounding tubes, they do not sound close to what a Bad Boy can do, IMHO.

If you want an intro into Sylvania, get a true Chrome Dome ('52 6SN7GTA) or a '51-'53 6SN7GT 2/3-Hole Bad Boy.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> There's a two-thirds hole Bad Boy too? Man, I am _so_ out of touch.



I'm ignoring you.


----------



## Monahans67

OMG.  Just got the Aeon Closed in the mail.  I first listened to Brian Bromberg "Thicker than Water" on Tidal (thanks Bill) and if anyone tells you the bass is not there in this headphone they are crazy.  With the Foton tube in the Lyr 3 they are wonderful.  Diana Krall "Live in Paris is also fantastic.  Now to try these with the Ken Rad and new Bad Boy when it gets here.  I am glad I have 5 of the Fotons though.  LOL


----------



## Ripper2860

Monahans67 said:


> I first listened to Brian Bromberg "Thicker than Water" on Tidal (thanks Bill)




Brian Bromberg???  What??!!  Bill Cowen is expanding his horizons beyond Linkin Park and Marilyn Manson???   Bill --  are you OK, buddy?? 

(@bcowen --  Obviously Bill's account has been hacked.  Who are you and what have you done with Bill!?)


----------



## Monahans67

Man you guys are a hoot.  I referenced that Bill was the one who recommended Tidal Lossless to me.  I had never used it before.  I will never tell what I have done with Bill.  He is in a good place and now I only have to take the tape off his mouth to get immediate answers to my many questions.


----------



## Wes S

ilikepooters said:


> Were there any WGT bad boys? I mean is it possible they used the same gubbins but with the ruggedized WGT construction?I've spotted one with 3 holes in the black plates and a '52 code (If they were made in the 50's, could be 40's or 60's?)


Different tube.  Just


Monahans67 said:


> OMG.  Just got the Aeon Closed in the mail.  I first listened to Brian Bromberg "Thicker than Water" on Tidal (thanks Bill) and if anyone tells you the bass is not there in this headphone they are crazy.  With the Foton tube in the Lyr 3 they are wonderful.  Diana Krall "Live in Paris is also fantastic.  Now to try these with the Ken Rad and new Bad Boy when it gets here.  I am glad I have 5 of the Fotons though.  LOL


Would love to hear your thoughts on the Alpha Prime vs the Aeon Closed, with the lyr 3.


----------



## Monahans67 (Oct 19, 2018)

Let me listen for a day or two then I will post my thoughts.  As of now I can tell there is more of an airy sound with a little better soundstage.  Female voices are like they are singing right in front of you.  The Aeon doesn't sound as closed in as the Alpha Prime.  I was listening to one song and thought someone was saying something to me on the right side.  I turned my head but there was nobody there. LOL It is also the most comfortable headphone I have ever worn.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Blah. Blah. Blah.  I'm still ignoring you.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> I'm busy buying a few parts I know I'll need when my score of the year gets here: a Hickok TV-3 military tester in extremely nice condition. And although it pains me greatly to admit it, I have @Ripper2860 to thank for it. He sent me a link to another tester to look at this morning and when I logged on to Ebay this popped up. It had just been listed and at less than half the price even poor condition units usually go for. If I hadn't been on Ebay right then I seriously doubt it would have still been there...even an hour later.
> 
> Fortunately I can repay the favor to Ripper by using this as a 2nd verification that all the tubes he sends me are bad and can be thrown away without wasting money on return postage. It's difficult to arrive at an accurate number on _avoided_ cost, but it's gotta be worth something.





Ripper2860 said:


> Blah. Blah. Blah.  I'm still ignoring you.



_All I can add is this image might become my desktop for a bit. Um, wow._


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm not sure, but I think Bill can actually pull in 'Radio Moscow' with what he just bought on eBay.


----------



## Wes S

Monahans67 said:


> Let me listen for a day or two then I will post my thoughts.  As of now I can tell there is more of an airy sound with a little better soundstage.  Female voices are like they are singing right in front of you.  The Aeon doesn't sound as closed in as the Alpha Prime.  I was listening to one song and thought someone was saying something to me on the right side.  I turned my head but there was nobody there. LOL It is also the most comfortable headphone I have ever worn.


Awesome!  Thanks for the info, and I look forward to hearing more.

Now I want that headphone even more!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## 441879

Checking in after a long absence- picked up a pair of AFOs. The Lyr3 with Bad-Boy and AFO has taught me why so many people on this thread have AFOs. Really great match.


----------



## ilikepooters

After some critical listening of the Brimar black blass with the brown base i think maybe there is a touch more sparkle in the top end, but this maybe just because it's not properly burned in yet, all my clear glass orange prints are used so a lot more burned in.


Still awaiting the Marconi B65's, shipping from abroad so taking agessss.


----------



## Rowethren

bcowen said:


> No, sorry...I meant the Bad Boy Ebay link I posted for @Monahans67. Looks like I didn't quote his post when I replied and lost the context as a result.



You had me worried! Don't do that to me again!!!


----------



## Rowethren

will f said:


> Checking in after a long absence- picked up a pair of AFOs. The Lyr3 with Bad-Boy and AFO has taught me why so many people on this thread have AFOs. Really great match.



Going to be interesting to see what the Ether 2 sounds like with the Lyr 3 as I will more than likely inevitably purchase them lol... @Ripper2860 Could probably buy them as well if he didn't spend all his budged on spares of spares of spares of spares for he tube collection


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 20, 2018)

Rowethren said:


> @Ripper2860 Could probably buy them as well if he didn't spend all his budged on spares of spares of spares of spares for he tube collection



My Hifiman Ananda HPs are serving me just fine, thank you.  I just have a metal thing about spending EF2 kind of $$$ on a pair of HPs.  It took all the strength I could muster to trade my Sundaras in + $500 for the Anandas.  

I will be on the lookout for a deal on a used Aeon Flow Closed in a few weeks, however.  



bcowen said:


> Welcome back, Will! Nothing here has changed much, except @Ripper2860 got even older.



Well, yes.  That and amass more tubes.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Tomatoe - Tomato


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> I will be on the lookout for a deal on a used Aeon Flow Closed in a few weeks, however.


AFC are great. I know because I have them since the pre-order... Ripper - you'll love them for sure. Our taste is very similar (I also got HEXv2 which is very close to your new Ananda).


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah, I need a nice pair of good closed back cans and they seem to be highly regarded.  I was hesitant because: 1) Bill likes them and he's a metal-head, and 2) I thought they might be too warm and bottom-heavy.  Seeing that you own the HF HEX v2 and still like the AFC sound profile, it looks like they may be the way to go for my situation. 

Thx!


----------



## ilikepooters

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah, I need a nice pair of good closed back cans and they seem to be highly regarded.  I was hesitant because: 1) Bill likes them and he's a metal-head, and 2) I thought they might be too warm and bottom-heavy.  Seeing that you own the HF HEX v2 and still like the AFC sound profile, it looks like they may be the way to go for my situation.
> 
> Thx!




I'm beginning to wonder rather than the  eye watering amount i've spent on tubes would it have been better to get better headphones? hehe. I'm sure when i've done a pair of STAX 009's would have been cheaper.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## 441879

bcowen said:


> Welcome back, Will!  Nothing here has changed much, except @Ripper2860 got even older.
> 
> Congrats on the AFO's.  All you need now is a Loki.



Loki? Check!

Ripper Older? Check!


----------



## earnmyturns

Ripper2860 said:


> I thought they might be too warm and bottom-heavy.


Not at all, they were quite balanced. A slight drop in the low-to-mid transition might make some people feel they are bottom-heavy, but they don't sound that way to me. OTOH, I use mine with a straight-as-a-ruler solid-state amp at work. The one time I tried them at home with the Lyr 3 I didn't quite like the pairing, it felt kind of hollow compared with the Ether C Flows. But I should try again with different tubes and more patience. BTW, Ether C Flows with the 1.1 damping upgrade (black foam) are unreal for jazz and voices, at least with the Apex Peak amp + Psvane tube. Next weekend I hope to have some time to try different DAC/amp/tube/headphone combos (the combinatorics are daunting if I want to go whole hog: 4 DACS, 3 headamps (2 with 6SN7 tubes), several tubes, two headphones) and share more info here.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 20, 2018)

will f said:


> Loki? Check!
> 
> Ripper Older? Check!



The rumors of my aging have been greatly exaggerated.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ripper2860 said:


> The rumors of my aging have been greatly exaggerated.


----------



## earnmyturns

Ken-Rad microphonics? I had not listened to my Ken-Rad tube for a while. When I got the Apex Peak amp, I tried it with the Ken-Rad and I had a lot of noise, including loud clicks. First I thought the amp was busted, but then I plugged in my Psvane and the Peak performed beautifully. Just now, I decided to test the Ken-Rad on my Lyr 3. It sounds good, but when I touch the volume knob or the enclosure, I hear a gentle "boing." I did not have that problem when I got the Ken-Rad originally. The Lyr 3 is connected to power and DAC exactly as before. 

As a side effect of these experiments, I tried some nice Baroque music (harpsichord + strings) on 1) Metrum Onyx>Apex Peak+Psvane vs 2) Holo Spring>Lyr 3+Ken-Rad. 1) sounds better defined, more layered, more spacious than 2). Earlier experiments comparing the two DACs with the same amp (Peak) leaned slightly toward the Onyx, but not for all material. From memory, Peak + Psvane is slightly more liquid and more spacious than Lyr 3 + Psvane. Nothing huge, and it's quite possible it would go the other way with different headphones than the fairly  easy to drive Ether C Flows, as the Lyr 3 has about 6x more power (because of the Continuity design) than the pure class A Peak.


----------



## 441879 (Oct 20, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah, I need a nice pair of good closed back cans and they seem to be highly regarded.  I was hesitant because: 1) Bill likes them and he's a metal-head, and 2) I thought they might be too warm and bottom-heavy.  Seeing that you own the HF HEX v2 and still like the AFC sound profile, it looks like they may be the way to go for my situation.
> 
> Thx!


 AFC’s aren’t warm or bottom heavy at all. Pretty neutral. My 400i is warmer and so are my AFOs. That said, when it comes to sub bass, they have more extension than the 400i or AFO (IMHO). Their best features are very detailed and great clarity + great isolation.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## 441879

bcowen said:


> Everyone knows (well except you, apparently) that anything that makes metal sound good makes _everything_ sound good.  This common knowledge is perhaps not inclusive of your main staple (Captain and Tenille), but there are exceptions to most everything.



Captain & Tenille Is serious head banging music... 

“Muscrat Love... Muzzle to muzzle, now, anything goes as they wriggle,
Sue starts to giggle” 

Bang! Bang! Bang! Please Make it Stop!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 20, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Everyone knows (well except you, apparently) that anything that makes metal sound good makes _everything_ sound good.  This common knowledge is perhaps not inclusive of your main staple (Captain and Tenille), but there are exceptions to most everything.



The fact that a metal-head like you even knows who they are is a testament to C&T's fame and success.  

And as far as metal being the litmus test for determining the quality of HPs, well...

I'm not buying what you're selling.


----------



## ProfFalkin

I bought a 3 hole bad boy.   The seller still hasn't given a tracking number, and it's been 6 days.  I have the worst luck with trying to get good tubes.  I hope the sale doesn't fall through.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah, that's pretty frustrating.  Keeping my fingers crossed for you.


----------



## chef8489

So money is quite tight and I will be needing to sell of most of my tubes like my Ken-rad vt-231 and wh d getter, 57 sylvania 6sn7 gtb, 56 Raytheon, and 58 foton. I will only be keeping my reflektor I think.


----------



## ProfFalkin

I'd take a backup WH-D.   PM me with price and all that?


----------



## Monahans67

chef8489 said:


> So money is quite tight and I will be needing to sell of most of my tubes like my Ken-rad vt-231 and wh d getter, 57 sylvania 6sn7 gtb, 56 Raytheon, and 58 foton. I will only be keeping my reflektor I think.


I'll take the Ken rad. PM me the info paypal etc.


----------



## chef8489

Dont suppose you are interested in any other tubes as well?


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> I bought a 3 hole bad boy.   The seller still hasn't given a tracking number, and it's been 6 days.  I have the worst luck with trying to get good tubes.  I hope the sale doesn't fall through.


Crazy!  The same thing happened to me on my first bad boy purchase, and I had to get a refund and almost gave up on that tube entirely.  Well. . .I am glad that I found a few more else where.  Good luck, with the sale, I hope you get it.


----------



## ilikepooters

Was there someone in this thread from the UK with a genuine Bad Boy? Can't remember the username, was wondering if wanted to play swapsies for a bit.

I want to find out what a bad boy sounds like and i'm willing to loan out my beloved Brimar black glass or Osram L63's + adaptor in exchange (Or any other tubes that might be of interest?)

I'll send my tubes first so you know i aint dodgy 

I live Nottingham way if ever anyone wants to audition Lyr 3 in the UK.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 22, 2018)

Rolled back in the ShuGuang CV181-Z Black Treasure to compare to the Brimar black glass and immediately something seems a bit.... off.

Couldn't put my finger on it at first, it's only subtle things, treble seems a bit less organic in the ShuGuang and overall the tube isn't as spacious. Mids are a bit more in your face with the ShuGuang. Don't get me wrong the ShuGuang is fantastic and puts some other tubes to shame but i think the Brimar has ruined me now, i can't unhear that tube.


Off i go looking for another Brimar black glass as back-up, when will the spending end?


----------



## Rowethren

ilikepooters said:


> Was there someone in this thread from the UK with a genuine Bad Boy? Can't remember the username, was wondering if wanted to play swapsies for a bit.
> 
> I want to find out what a bad boy sounds like and i'm willing to loan out my beloved Brimar black glass or Osram L63's + adaptor in exchange (Or any other tubes that might be of interest?)
> 
> ...



I have a spare Bad Boy 3 Hole, live down in Surrey. It is in NOS condition so if you borrow it you have to be careful. Saves me doing the burn it though


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Also i'll just leave these here.....


----------



## ilikepooters

Rowethren said:


> I have a spare Bad Boy 3 Hole, live down in Surrey. It is in NOS condition so if you borrow it you have to be careful. Saves me doing the burn it though




Sounds good i'll don a pair of white cotton gloves before any fondling


----------



## Monahans67

OK guys need some help as usual. LOL   I  received the Sylvania 2 hole 6Sn7GT today.  Plugged it in to the Lyr 3 and started to burn in the tube.  Went back after a few minutes to see if all was OK and there was a crackling-popping sound in the left channel.  Unplugged the headphones and put them on the Asgard 2 and the left side of the headphone is crackling andfull of static.  Put a Foton tube in the Lyr 3 and Headphone is still messed up but other pairs of headphones are fine.  I am just glad I put a audio technica a900x in it instead of the Alpha Primes or Aeons.  Once I got the Sylvania tube out I noticed the base could be moved up and down a little and the glass moved in the base some.  All I did was plug in the tube from the wrap so I know I did not damage the tube.  Now I am going to have to send these A900X off for repair.  I contacted the seller but have not heard back from him.  At least the Lyr 3 is working fine so there had to be a problem with this tube.


----------



## Monahans67

Just heard back from the seller.  He said he would either fix that tube, replace it or refund it.  Choice is mine.  He said he put in the remarks section for the sale that the base was loose.  I told him it was not on there but that if it was and he can now fix it why didn't he fix it before he sent it.  Doesn't make any sense to me.  What would you guys do.  I am thinking having him send another one and to make sure it is a good tube.


----------



## Monahans67

Now he says that if it was loose he would have fixed it.  I told him all I did was take it out of package and place it in amp like I always do and took it out once. Told him I would take another one but to check the base and make sure he sends a good one.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I rarely agree with @bcowen, but +1 to the above.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

You think you're a big shot now, huh?  Keep it up and I'll keep you hidden and put the tape back over mouth, lol.  You do know Ripper rhymes with Stripper.  Now try to get that image out of your head. Lol. I told him to pick out a good one, check the base etc and send one. Gave him the tracking # from post office and he is sending it out.  He was easy to deal with.  Contacted audio technica and they will send a replacement part for headphone for 20.00 plus 4.00 shipping.  Could have been worse for sure.


----------



## Monahans67

Sorry Bill I thought those tubes were yours.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 22, 2018)

Monahans67 said:


> You think you're a big shot now, huh?  Keep it up and I'll keep you hidden and put the tape back over mouth, lol.  You do know Ripper rhymes with Stripper.  Now try to get that image out of your head. Lol. I told him to pick out a good one, check the base etc and send one. Gave him the tracking # from post office and he is sending it out.  He was easy to deal with.  Contacted audio technica and they will send a replacement part for headphone for 20.00 plus 4.00 shipping.  Could have been worse for sure.



I guess my secret is out.  

BTW -- My stage name is "Mr. Tripod".  

Thank you! I'll be here all week -- don't forget to tip your waitress!!


----------



## Monahans67

I dont think they make 2 or 3 inch tripods so I am turning you in for false advertising.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 22, 2018)

My momma taught me if you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all.


----------



## ilikepooters

Quick listen of the B65 and it's promising...

But at this early stage i'd say Osram L63's + adaptor and Brimar black glass have the edge, but the B65 hasn't even begun to burn in yet, i'll give it until tomorrow night for another quick listen.


----------



## Monahans67

I am afraid even tri focals and up close couldn't help you. Sorry.


----------



## Ripper2860

Monahans67 said:


> I am afraid even tri focals and up close couldn't help you. Sorry.



I edited right as you posted.


----------



## Monahans67

Too funny. I get a kick out of you guys on this site.  You all make my day.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Oct 22, 2018)

bcowen said:


> If it were me and the seller is being receptive, I'd ask him to replace it.


Agreed.   Get a new one.  

Also, Ripper's days as a stripper are over.  Time has not been kind to her.

=P


----------



## Wes S

Monahans67 said:


> Now he says that if it was loose he would have fixed it.  I told him all I did was take it out of package and place it in amp like I always do and took it out once. Told him I would take another one but to check the base and make sure he sends a good one.


I would get a refund and find another seller.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Monahans67 said:


> I dont think they make 2 or 3 inch tripods so I am turning you in for false advertising.


I think this is what he meant
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripod_position


I am sorry but I couldn't resist


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 22, 2018)

^^^ Yeah.  That's it.  After 3 minutes of vigorous pole dancing, that's to be expected at my age.  Fortunately, the man-thong keeps the ladies entertained as I bend over and take a hit of my inhaler.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

OMG what did I start.  No sleep tonight.  Nightmares, God awful nightmares.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 22, 2018)

Monahans67 said:


> OMG what did I start.  No sleep tonight.  Nightmares, God awful nightmares.



And I didn't even mention the 'banana hammock'.  

(OK.  I threw up a little in my mouth after posting that.)


----------



## Monahans67

Please have mercy, no pictures of the hammock.


----------



## Ripper2860

Oooops.  Too late.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Looks like a very nice Beech wood.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 22, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Looks like a very nice Beech wood.



I see what you did.   

Sooooo.  Back on topic.  A '52 6SN7GTA Sylvie Chrome Dome's turn in the Lyr 3 for a few days.  It looks pretty darn neat, if I do say so myself...


----------



## Rowethren

It's so shiny!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> I see what you did.
> 
> Sooooo.  Back on topic.  A '52 6SN7GTA Sylvie Chrome Dome's turn in the Lyr 3 for a few days.  It looks pretty darn neat, if I do say so myself...


How do you like the sound?   Is it... Bright?


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> How do you like the sound?   Is it... Bright?


I have been wanting to know this as well?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 23, 2018)

I'll start with it's not a Bad Boy.  The Chrome Dome does sound very nice with silky smooth mids that are layered with nice texture.  It presents a nice soundstage, although not as wide or as expansive as the Frankie or a 6SN7W. The bass and highs are well represented without exaggeration, although not the bass impact of Frankie or the BB.  It is a very enjoyable and neutral tube that works very nicely with my type of music -- typically well recorded live jazz.  You can find them at about the price (or less) of a WH-D tube, so not expensive and well worth a try if you like a neutral tube that is silky smooth...

and you like shiny things!!


----------



## chef8489

Ripper2860 said:


> I'll start with it's not a Bad Boy.  The Chrome Dome does sound very nice with silky smooth mids that are layered with nice texture.  It presents a nice soundstage, although not as wide or as expansive as the Frankie or a 6SN7W. The bass and highs are well represented without exaggeration, although not the bass impact of Frankie or the BB.  It is a very enjoyable and neutral tube that works very nicely with my type of music -- typically well recorded live jazz.  You can find them at about the price (or less) of a WH-D tube, so not expensive and well worth a try if you like a neutral tube that is silky smooth...
> 
> and you like shiny things!!


I have two of the sylvania chrome domes I need to let go.


----------



## Monahans67

Could all you fine gentlemen please help me locate a RCA Grey Glass, they seem to be rather expensive huh?  If not could you tell me what to look for?


----------



## ProfFalkin

Monahans67 said:


> Could all you fine gentlemen please help me locate a RCA Grey Glass, they seem to be rather expensive huh?  If not could you tell me what to look for?


I seem to recall that tube being super-rolled off in the treble.   I don't know if I still have a pair, or if I sold them off with my Dragon Inspire.   Let me look when I get home.


----------



## Monahans67

Dang I thought they were highly recommended.  Maybe I need more recommendations.  I have the Ken rad, 5 fotons and the Westinghouse that is recommended. Also have the sylvania bad boy coming.  Any recommendations?


----------



## Monahans67

I told myself one more and I'm done.  Wink.


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 23, 2018)

Monahans67 said:


> Dang I thought they were highly recommended.  Maybe I need more recommendations.  I have the Ken rad, 5 fotons and the Westinghouse that is recommended. Also have the sylvania bad boy coming.  Any recommendations?



Brimar black glass. Preferably with the brown base. I am bidding on a black glass with the black base so i can see how it compares.

Also Brimar clear glass with orange print on the base sounds great but with the treble a tad more relaxed than my black glass version.

*EDIT* Speak of the devil, this is exactly the version i have: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brimar-6...h=item442aff45b1:g:1NoAAOSw5ttbVf14:rk:3:pf:0


----------



## Monahans67

Do you have to use an adapter for that tube?


----------



## ilikepooters

Nope, plugs straight in


----------



## Monahans67

Good deal I will have to look for one.


----------



## ilikepooters

Monahans67 said:


> Good deal I will have to look for one.




I edited my earlier post with a link to one identical to the one i have: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brimar-6...own-base-4L8-381-Made-in-England/292779148721

Looks like the seller ships worldwide.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

Hey Bill obviously you have heard the frankie.  Is it something you think would be good with the Alpha and Aeon?  Is it just different or better then the Ken Rad or Foton.


----------



## ProfFalkin

ProfFalkin said:


> I seem to recall that tube being super-rolled off in the treble.   I don't know if I still have a pair, or if I sold them off with my Dragon Inspire.   Let me look when I get home.



Nope.  Can't find them.  Must be gone.



bcowen said:


> The Professor's recollection is right on. If you had a pair of 'phones that needed some stern taming in the treble the RCA's would be worth a listen. For your Alphas OR Aeon's, I think you'd find the RCA to be pretty muffled and downright boring.  Besides the Brimar (which I haven't heard), you might want to look at a Frankie. It's the Wal-Mart priced Bad Boy for those of us that don't shop at Saks.   Needs a 6SN7 -> 7N7 adapter though...



Thanks for the confirmation.   Also,  I'll second the Frankie and adapter recommendation.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> Nope.  Can't find them.  Must be gone.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the confirmation.   Also,  I'll second the Frankie and adapter recommendation.


I will add, to the confirmation, that the RCA grey glass, are super rolled off, and warm.   The grey glass, is not a good match for the Alpha Prime, at all.


----------



## Monahans67

This series of answers is exactly why I am so glad I found this thread.  You guys are always so willing to help us guys who are just getting into this fun experience.  I bet it saves us some money too in the long run.  Thanks a bunch.


----------



## ilikepooters

Monahans67 said:


> This series of answers is exactly why I am so glad I found this thread.  You guys are always so willing to help us guys who are just getting into this fun experience.  I bet it saves us some money too in the long run.  Thanks a bunch.



I'm yet to save a penny rolling tubes just too damn addictive


----------



## Monahans67

Well there is that too!!!!!!!


----------



## davisman

And so it begins...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

Thanks Bill. Will have to do some looking for one and the adapter.  Thanks for the quick reply as usual you are the man!!!!!! Take that Ripper. LOL


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Oct 24, 2018)

bcowen said:


> LOL!  Sometimes the truth just sucks. I've likely spent far more on tubes than I ever would have before finding this thread.
> 
> Then again, buying tubes hasn't ever been a difficult activity for me.


I'm afraid I'm starting to get burned out on tube rolling.  It's too easy to spend more than we paid for the amp just in tubes.

The idea of picking a single tube and sticking with it is nice, and in an ideal world would happen... but the idea that something better sounding is out there, and I don't own it, keeps the frustration levels alive.

I'm thinking about picking up a Gilmore Lite Mark 2.  It was a fantastic sounding amp at Zach's RMAF booth, and it doesn't break the bank.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Lyr.   It is the tubes that detract me ATM.


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> I'm afraid I'm starting to get burned out on tube rolling.  It's too easy to spend more than we paid for the amp just in tubes....



I have officially burned out. With over 2 dozen including 3 matched pairs (including Psvane 6SN7's and TII's) and 4 Foton's (which may be 2 matched pairs as well),  I'm tubed out. Just picked up my new CD spinner this morning to complete my bedroom rig. 

Time to get back to listening and comparing performances, (classical, of course), and swap in/out tubes ad lib as the spirit moves me. Got plenty of everything at this point from a headphone standpoint.

Did happen to see a fun little tube/integrated amp at 100wpc today when I picked up my CD transport. Add a pair of efficient mini towers and ...
Dammit!!!


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 24, 2018)

Marconi B65 impressions:

The tube i have is a touch microphonic, took me some time to position the amp so vibrations from my PC fans didn't affect the sound. Worth it in the end 

This tube is a smidgen warmer than neutral in the bass, tight textured and controlled, the mids are mildy liquid and lush sounding not quite as up front as the Osram L63's, treble extension and detail are insane. Instruments are supremely separate.

Soundstage monster, great height and depth as well as being wide (wide as a Brimar)


Overall it's a very pleasing and musical tube, almost identical to the Osram L63's i've been rocking but the Osrams have a more present midrange and not quite as detailed in the treble (very minute difference, neglible really, the L65's _are_ detailed) as the B65, soundstage maybe a touch smaller in the L63's (again negligible). I'd say where the B65 has a more (a touch) pronounced advantage would be in airiness and decay.


I wouldn't buy this tube again though, cheapest i could have gotten it would have been about £370 (Saw a single on ebay from same seller sell for that) Osram L63's are as near as damn it in performance, even the Brimar black glass brown base isn't a million miles away.

I'll likely keep this tube for special occasions, use it for reference, it's only ever going to get rarer and more valuable.

By all means buy one if you can find one and the price is reasonable for you, it is a bit special and i understand why they sell for so much. But 2 x Osram L63's do _almost _the same job for a lot less money.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> I'm afraid I'm starting to get burned out on tube rolling.  It's too easy to spend more than we paid for the amp just in tubes.
> 
> The idea of picking a single tube and sticking with it is nice, and in an ideal world would happen... but the idea that something better sounding is out there, and I don't own it, keeps the frustration levels alive.
> 
> ...


I am right there with ya, on the frustration of not being totally satisfied with my tubes, even though they sound amazing.  I have to talk myself out of purchasing a Sylvania 6sn7w and Tung Sol round plate, every freaking day.  I think about buying them all day at work, and then go home and listen, with my bad boy, and the craving to buy more is gone.  Then the next day comes, and it starts all over.


----------



## Ripper2860

Do yourself a favor and save a bundle by getting a Frankie in lieu of a W.  The difference in sound is practically nil and the difference in price is huge!


----------



## Phantaminum

ProfFalkin said:


> I'm afraid I'm starting to get burned out on tube rolling.  It's too easy to spend more than we paid for the amp just in tubes.
> 
> The idea of picking a single tube and sticking with it is nice, and in an ideal world would happen... but the idea that something better sounding is out there, and I don't own it, keeps the frustration levels alive.
> 
> ...



It happens. Once you figure out what sound you like everything is a derivative of it. It's fine to experiment though you don't know what you like until you find it. Now it's just settling in and buying a few of the tubes you do enjoy.

Or,if you're itching to spend more instead buy a higher tier amp and just move over those same tubes you like on the Lyr 3. The best part about this hobby is that you have options depending on how far your wallet will stretch.


----------



## Monahans67

ProFalk8n it is funny you said that about the Gilmore lite because just yesterday I listened to my (lowly) Asgard 2 and I thought, man this sounds pretty good with the Aeons.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 24, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Agree. I actually prefer the Frankie for my (questionable) tastes in music.



And Bill uses the term 'music' quite liberally, I might add.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> When I want your opinion I'll give it to you.



If I want any schiit from you, I'll squeeze your head.


----------



## Freeflap

I leave for a week and things fall apart!!! People are dropping out and giving up in tube rolling?? Just like college drinking you have to PACE yourself. Drink too fast and you'll be puking like a freshman. Pace the purchases and enjoy the ride. I'm settling in to listening to one tube a week. Still loving the fun musical nature of the 7n7 franken. Reminds me of a good guitar tube amp. Very musical. some audible distortion as it warms up, but it's good distortion. NOT bad. 

Now that i think of it, might try to pick up some more 7n7....


----------



## Ripper2860

I tallied up the $$$ I've spent on tubes and I could have damn near bought a Gumby.  And I've only had a tube amp since May.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> I tallied up the $$$ I've spent on tubes and I could have damn near bought a Gumby.  And I've only had a tube amp since May.


Almost identical story here...


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> I tallied up the $$$ I've spent on tubes and I could have damn near bought a Gumby.  And I've only had a tube amp since May.


Love my Gumby.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> If I tallied up all the $$$ I've spent on tubes I could have bought a house.


Love my house.


----------



## Rowethren

ProfFalkin said:


> I'm afraid I'm starting to get burned out on tube rolling.  It's too easy to spend more than we paid for the amp just in tubes.
> 
> The idea of picking a single tube and sticking with it is nice, and in an ideal world would happen... but the idea that something better sounding is out there, and I don't own it, keeps the frustration levels alive.
> 
> ...



I get what you mean, that is why I have been very careful to go for one of the top rated tubes first. The Bad Boys sound great so I will just stick with them and be done I think.



Ripper2860 said:


> I tallied up the $$$ I've spent on tubes and I could have damn near bought a Gumby.  And I've only had a tube amp since May.



Like I said in an earlier reply to you, you could have saved up the money spent on tubes and gotten some better headphones which will make a far bigger difference to sound quality. What I shall do is look at what you spent and use that as a justification to by either the Ether 2 or Empyrean instead. That is how it works right?...


----------



## Ripper2860

Rowethren said:


> Like I said in an earlier reply to you, you could have saved up the money spent on tubes and gotten some better headphones which will make a far bigger difference to sound quality. What I shall do is look at what you spent and use that as a justification to by either the Ether 2 or Empyrean instead. That is how it works right?...



I never said I didn't upgrade my HPs.  I also upgraded also from Hifiman Sundara to Ananda, but that's a whole other affliction.


----------



## Rowethren

Ripper2860 said:


> I never said I didn't upgrade my HPs.  I also upgraded also from Hifiman Sundara to Ananda, but that's a whole other affliction.



You could have gotten the HE1K instead of tubes  

What a silly hobby this all is lol...


----------



## Wes S (Oct 25, 2018)

Hey all you rollers, that have tried the Sylvania 6SN7W tall bottle black base, and the Sylvania 52' 3 hole BB.  How do the mids, especially upper mids, compare?  Are they more forward on the 6SN7W?  The mids are right where I want them on the BB, but I could always use a tad more bass and treble extension, to mix things up.  I am sensitive to upper mid / lower treble spikes, and this is my concern.  I have read that the W's are forward sounding in the mids, compared to the other Sylvania's liquid/warmish mids?


----------



## Ripper2860

I own both and don't really recall.  I'll have to throw them in for a listen and get back to you.  @bcowen has listened to both recently, maybe he can jump-in and give a comparo.


----------



## Ripper2860

Rowethren said:


> You could have gotten the HE1K instead of tubes
> 
> What a silly hobby this all is lol...



True, but then I'd be wondering how much better the HE1K could sound if I found the perfect tube, etc.   And after finding the perfect tube...  

 It's a vicious cycle!!


----------



## Zachik

Rowethren said:


> You could have gotten the HE1K instead of tubes


Personally, I strongly preferred the sound of HEXv2 compared to HEKv2 (despite being cheaper / lower slot in the lineup)...
Technically, I do not think anyone would claim HEX is better, but its signature is way more musical and fun (to my ears)!


----------



## ProfFalkin (Oct 25, 2018)

Zachik said:


> Personally, I strongly preferred the sound of HEXv2 compared to HEKv2 (despite being cheaper / lower slot in the lineup)...
> Technically, I do not think anyone would claim HEX is better, but its signature is way more musical and fun (to my ears)!


You're not alone.  Ultimately, neither are my cup of tea, but I see why people like them.

The LFF modified HE6 on the other hand...   Yggy > Saga > Vidar > LFF HE6 is freaking fantastic.  Probably the best synergistic setup I've ever heard.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## Rowethren

Zachik said:


> Personally, I strongly preferred the sound of HEXv2 compared to HEKv2 (despite being cheaper / lower slot in the lineup)...
> Technically, I do not think anyone would claim HEX is better, but its signature is way more musical and fun (to my ears)!



It was only an example, the last time I listened to a Hifiman headphone was CanJam London 2016 lol... 

Certainly I prefer a warmer signature and that doesn't seem to be the goal for most of the top headphones sadly. Although it seems to be becoming more popular these days which is great! I just feel analytical headphones don't sound like real music, the HD800 for example. YMMV


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> The mids are very similar between the two.  They may come across as a little more forward with the W but only because of the comparative deficiency in the bass -- the W doesn't have the extension or impact of the 3-hole BB, at least through the Aeons.  The W is a great sounding tube overall, but it takes a backseat to both the BB and the Frankie in the bass.


Thank you so much for this!  I trust your opinion, and you just saved me hundreds of dollars.  That was exactly the info, I was looking for!  Back to the music. . .


----------



## Zachik

Rowethren said:


> It was only an example, the last time I listened to a Hifiman headphone was CanJam London 2016 lol...
> 
> Certainly I prefer a warmer signature and that doesn't seem to be the goal for most of the top headphones sadly. Although it seems to be becoming more popular these days which is great! I just feel analytical headphones don't sound like real music, the HD800 for example. YMMV


100% in agreement with you!
ZMF's headphones are both high-end AND warm. Amazing craftsmanship, too


----------



## ProfFalkin

Rowethren said:


> It was only an example, the last time I listened to a Hifiman headphone was CanJam London 2016 lol...
> 
> Certainly I prefer a warmer signature and that doesn't seem to be the goal for most of the top headphones sadly. Although it seems to be becoming more popular these days which is great! I just feel analytical headphones don't sound like real music, the HD800 for example. YMMV


I'm in the same boat.   I'll second what @Zachik said.  If you get a chance to hear the ZMF Verite, your head might explode.   The Eikon is fantastic too.


----------



## m17xr2b (Oct 25, 2018)

ilikepooters said:


> Marconi B65 impressions:
> 
> The tube i have is a touch microphonic, took me some time to position the amp so vibrations from my PC fans didn't affect the sound. Worth it in the end
> 
> ...



Do yourself a favour and get the coke bottle L63, stay away from the brimar/tungsram so the usuals, gec,mwt,marconi,osram. I see the B65 came in three variants. Asymmetrical plates like the ones you have on the B65 and the L63, same plate but just one. Then there was the typical plate structure and I see it goes for the same amount on ebay. The clues are subtle since they painted the glass, here's a clear one, same plate as the coke bottle L63. The offset plates came later and seem the least desired.
So why not hear both?
The coke is aggressive, sharper,has more attack and not so much romance but works great in certain cases. I'm using it on the Teton tho.


----------



## Rowethren

ProfFalkin said:


> I'm in the same boat.   I'll second what @Zachik said.  If you get a chance to hear the ZMF Verite, your head might explode.   The Eikon is fantastic too.



It sucks living in the UK sometimes, they are not easy to get hold of over here let alone demo lol... I have the same thing with speakers, so many small manufacturers in the USA I would love to try but nope not going to happen!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Or in @Ripper2860 's case, might develop a vacuum leak.


I think Ripper might really like them too, although you are right... His brain housing might develop a crack and the vacuum would be lost.  Such is the risk you take when you stray from those thin sounding HFM earmuffs into impactful and musical ZMF headphones.


Shots fired!  Medic!!!


----------



## Wes S (Oct 25, 2018)

ZMF all the way!   Best headphones for pure listening enjoyment, out there.  The Ori and Blackwood, have dethroned my Alpha Prime, and I will own an Atticus or Eikon soon.


----------



## Zachik

Rowethren said:


> It sucks living in the UK sometimes, they are not easy to get hold of over here let alone demo lol... I have the same thing with speakers, so many small manufacturers in the USA I would love to try but nope not going to happen!


If memory serves, ZMF attends CanJam London every year. You can audition anything and everything he makes (and it is ALL good!)


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 25, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> I think Ripper might really like them too, although you are right... His brain housing might develop a crack and the vacuum would be lost.  Such is the risk you take when you stray from those thin sounding HFM earmuffs into impactful and musical ZMF headphones.
> 
> 
> Shots fired!  Medic!!!



Pffft. Former musicians with truly pristine hearing (vs. perceived) can appreciate and enjoy the sonic virtues of HFM's natural reproduction of instruments and music.  Only the hearing impaired with wax encrusted eardrums claim that the colored and bloated ruckus emitted from their inferior HPs is superior.  Only those poor, flatulent, and misguided souls are inclined to poo-poo Hifiman's excellent line of headphone products.  Sad, really - it only proves that their bliss is their ignorance.  




*** Yeah -- I'd probably love them, but that's beside the point.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Pffft. Former musicians with truly pristine hearing (vs. perceived) can appreciate and enjoy the sonic virtues of HFM's natural reproduction of instruments and music.  Only the hearing impaired with wax encrusted eardrums claim that the colored and bloated ruckus emitted from their inferior HPs is superior.  Only those poor, flatulent, and misguided souls are inclined to poo-poo Hifiman's excellent line of headphone products.  Sad, really - it only proves that their bliss is their ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL, nice


----------



## Rowethren

Zachik said:


> If memory serves, ZMF attends CanJam London every year. You can audition anything and everything he makes (and it is ALL good!)



It's not till the middle of next year though and generally CanJams are not great for final demos as it is so damn loud!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Rowethren said:


> generally CanJams are not great for final demos as it is so damn loud!


It can be a detractor, for sure, but I'd argue any hands-on time with a headphone - even on a show floor - 100% trumps going in to a blind purchase.


----------



## Rowethren

ProfFalkin said:


> It can be a detractor, for sure, but I'd argue any hands-on time with a headphone - even on a show floor - 100% trumps going in to a blind purchase.



Can't argue with that!


----------



## Zachik

Rowethren said:


> It's not till the middle of next year though and generally CanJams are not great for final demos as it is so damn loud!





ProfFalkin said:


> It can be a detractor, for sure, but I'd argue any hands-on time with a headphone - even on a show floor - 100% trumps going in to a blind purchase.



Also, if you go early in the morning, as it opens, it is much quieter... Not ideal conditions, but much better than later in the day!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 22, 2020)

.


----------



## 441879

Ripper2860 said:


> Pffft. Former musicians with truly pristine hearing (vs. perceived) can appreciate and enjoy the sonic virtues of HFM's natural reproduction of instruments and music.  Only the hearing impaired with wax encrusted eardrums claim that the colored and bloated ruckus emitted from their inferior HPs is superior.  Only those poor, flatulent, and misguided souls are inclined to poo-poo Hifiman's excellent line of headphone products.  Sad, really - it only proves that their bliss is their ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have to say (having only owned a pair of 400i) that HFM makes a darn nice headphone. For what I paid (around $200) they’re absolutely outstanding. Nothing else I’ve owned in that price range comes close. I’ve never heard their more expensive offerings, but I’ve been tempted to pick up a pair of 560s on the cheap to see what all the fuss is about.


----------



## ilikepooters

will f said:


> I have to say (having only owned a pair of 400i) that HFM makes a darn nice headphone. For what I paid (around $200) they’re absolutely outstanding. Nothing else I’ve owned in that price range comes close. I’ve never heard their more expensive offerings, but I’ve been tempted to pick up a pair of 560s on the cheap to see what all the fuss is about.



I got my HE-500's for £280 on ebay, don't think i'll ever beat that for value.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> The 2nd Tung-Sol 6J5 arrived today, so FrankenTower can now be ceremoniously put into service (and just in time for Halloween):
> 
> 
> 
> Some real pretty round plates here. And it appears I've shamelessly stolen all the Ebay luck from @ProfFalkin .  Ordered these tubes individually from different sellers and not only do they match up internally, they have GM values that are at NOS values and within 2% of each other. That's better than most twin-triode tubes like a 6SN7.  Sorry, Professor. I'll understand the finger picture if it appears.



Careful.  You are close to going full retard.






Never go full retard.

Haha.   Let us know how it sounds!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> LOL! That's beyond full retard. That's a setup that can't even work. Cool picture though.
> 
> What I don't know is if the orientation of the adapter will work in my setup. I have the rest of my Schiit stacked on the Lyr. so I'm hoping the pin on the adapter is oriented at 90 degrees from the Lyr's. Haven't gotten that far yet...


I like the cut of your jib, sailor.   Nice stack.


----------



## wwmhf

I like that tube stack much better...


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 27, 2018)

bcowen said:


> LOL! That's beyond full retard. That's a setup that can't even work. Cool picture though.
> 
> What I don't know is if the orientation of the adapter will work in my setup. I have the rest of my Schiit stacked on the Lyr. so I'm hoping the pin on the adapter is oriented at 90 degrees from the Lyr's. Haven't gotten that far yet...



If the adpator is from same seller as mine then it twists slightly between the PCB and the bottom connector


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> Careful.  You are close to going full retard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cowabunga dudes!


----------



## ilikepooters (Oct 27, 2018)

It's been bugging me that i didn't do my research and bought an emission tester (B&K606) so having not learned my lesson, i've not done my research and bought a mutual conductance tester.

Managed to snag a Hickock 800A for $305 (+ shipping + import duty)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hickock-800A-Tube-Transistor-Tester-Manual-Micromha-Dynamic-Mutual-Conductance/312281819593?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Doesn't look in bad shape, did i do good or is that not really a great tester and i've wasted more money that i could have wasted on more tube experimentation?


----------



## ilikepooters

ilikepooters said:


> It's been bugging me that i didn't do my research and bought an emission tester (B&K606) so having not learned my lesson, i've not done my research and bought a mutual conductance tester.
> 
> Managed to snag a Hickock 800A for $305 (+ shipping + import duty)
> 
> ...



it seems next to impossible to get a good tester in the UK without spending stupid money.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> The 800A is a great tester!  I used to have one. And that's a really good price assuming everything is up to spec as advertised. The case is a little rough, but the faceplate is in great shape. You can always re-cover the case if you get the urge, but it's impossible to fix corrosion or scratches on the plate.  I got a steal on my 752A when I bought it and the main reason was because it will test the second section of a dual triode tube with the push of a button (with the 800A, you have to change settings on 4 of the rotary switches between sections). Unless you're testing a lot of tubes it's a pretty minor thing, but then I'm pretty lazy.   Hope it gets there safely and works as stated.




If not i'm not averse to changing any out of spec parts, that English switch might be hassle though reading the online guide.


----------



## m17xr2b

You could build your own tester if you have some basic soldering skills. Mine saved me from bogus ebay tubes a few times. Around 200£ and ten hours of work.


----------



## ilikepooters

I'd love to do something like that but wouldn't even know where to start. Can solder but only have rudimentary knowledge of electronics.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## FLTWS

LOL!


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Man, if the price of tubes keeps climbing like this, I'm going to have to quit buying and maybe use some of the ones I already have.
> 
> Nah....



I actually kind of like it when I pay more for shipping than I do for the tube.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

I might be going a bit far now, but the Russians made a 6C5 equivalent:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6S5S-ELE...h=item4688684d69:g:YQcAAOSwECZUopfg:rk:1:pf:0






I've ordered some to go in the adaptor.


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## Ripper2860 (Oct 27, 2018)

Poor @ilikepooters.  While he pioneered pushing the Tube Rolling envelope, it seems that this time he may have just taken it too far.  

Donations can be made by going to: stopscrewingaroundbeforeitstoolate.com


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

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----------



## m17xr2b

bcowen said:


> That looks pretty sweet!  Was this a kit, or did you build from a schematic?


You can buy just the actual circuit for testing but everything else is your choice so power, sockets, connections, heater wiring etc. I have only basic skills from building a couple of bottlehead amps but it was enough.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

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----------



## m17xr2b

Yes, started with A4 plexiglas and cut everything up with a dremel then applied carbon foil on top.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## ProfFalkin (Oct 28, 2018)

Well, I'll find out tomorrow what I think of this...

  

Pins need a cleaning.

Could very well be my last tube purchase, even if it doesn't work out.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 28, 2018)

I think you'll like it.  While it may not be your top tube, it may be.  However it goes (assuming it's in good working order), it will likely be at or near the top, IMHO.   

I'm beginning to feel the same way about tubes.  I've gotten to the point where getting new types of tubes is not even a thought.  My efforts are now making sure I have some backup on the tubes I like.


----------



## Henry Hua

Not sure if it is good enough for LCD3


----------



## ProfFalkin (Oct 28, 2018)

ilikepooters said:


> I might be going a bit far now, but the Russians made a 6C5 equivalent:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6S5S-ELE...h=item4688684d69:g:YQcAAOSwECZUopfg:rk:1:pf:0
> 
> 
> ...



They remind me of something awesome I saw on TV.





And their evil leader:


----------



## Rowethren

ProfFalkin said:


> Well, I'll find out tomorrow what I think of this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very nice! Hope you like it as much as I do!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Only issue is that it was made during the week between Christmas and New Year's. Kind of like buying a car made on a Friday, only worse.


Yeah...  I figured I'd give it a spin this morning.  I haven't cleaned the pins yet.  I know better than to do this, but I figured it would just be a quick listen... Right channel popped loudly once the output clicked on, and I freaked out and switched it off super quick.   Put my WH-d back in, all is fine, luckily for me.

Clean your pins folks!


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## rgmffn (Oct 29, 2018)

I know you know better, but I would never have stuck that in my equipment before a cleaning. Shame on you. 

Edit to add: And I wouldn't have tested it afterwards with my precious WH d-getter either.


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## Ripper2860 (Oct 29, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Then you don't want me to report on the 6J5's?  I understand.
> More for me.



I'm of that mindset today -- who knows what tomorrow may bring.

** Personal note:  Aesthetics matter to me and the thought of that dual tube contraption perched on a socket saver towering from my elegant and svelte Lyr 3 may just be too much.  Yeah, a true tube-o-phile wouldn't care.  I know I've disappointed you and many others in this thread.


----------



## ProfFalkin

rgmffn said:


> I know you know better, but I would never have stuck that in my equipment before a cleaning. Shame on you.


Yeah.  

 

Next up on my list of Overconfident audio upgrades, I will attempt to "upgrade" the fuses in all of my gear.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

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## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Hadn't ever seen that fuse display before. ROFL!!!
> 
> They need to update it though. Perhaps under  "??? Amp" (as I'm pretty _not_ sure UL or CE have listed these).


Anything that includes the word "magic" in it's name in the audiophile hobby is most certainly utter crap and snake oil.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Oct 29, 2018)

ProfFalkin said:


> Anything that includes the word "magic" in it's name in the audiophile hobby is most certainly utter crap and snake oil.



However, the word "Magic" used to describe a cheap motel room vibrating bed is GLORIOUS!!  (Assuming you have a pocket full of quarters and are up-to-date on your vaccinations.)  


And what about Magico speakers?


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> However, the word "Magic" used to describe a cheap motel room vibrating bed is GLORIOUS!!  (Assuming you have a pocket full of quarters and are up-to-date on your vaccinations.)
> 
> 
> And what about Magico speakers?


I'm not going to touch this one.


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## Ripper2860 (Oct 29, 2018)

I have a very plausible and Rated G explanation for knowing, but I'll just let you fine folks run with it.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> I have a very plausible and Rated G explanation for knowing, but I'll just let you fine folks run with it.


That's one hell of a typo.   The G key is a long ways off from the X key.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 29, 2018)

Shouldn't you be cleaning some tube pins or something??


----------



## buonassi

a bit OT, but seeing as many of yous guys are into or considering ZMF headphones, why not meet him in person?  Dec 9th in Chicago for ZMFestivus.  It'll be my second time meeting him, and it'd be great to meet some of you other lyr3 tube fondlers there.  Plus, he usually brings Decware amps, so we can compare how a $2k amp fares against the Lyr3!

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-inaugural-zmfestivus-2018-chicago-12-9-18.891737/


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## ProfFalkin (Oct 31, 2018)

If I could go, I would.   I've met Zach several times.  Quality dude, for sure. 

The Pendant amp I think sounds better than the Mogwai it is based off.  If you get a chance to compare the two, you should.  The mog is just too colored sounding for me, but the pendant kept a nice neutral tone.   Could be the tubes used, but I'm not sure.


----------



## ilikepooters

Got some more stuff on the way, thought i'd give the E80CC a go seeing as when you squint your eyes the specs aren't that far out. Needs an adaptor though.

Also got my beady eye on a Tung Sol round plate.


----------



## timb5881

ilikepooters said:


> Got some more stuff on the way, thought i'd give the E80CC a go seeing as when you squint your eyes the specs aren't that far out. Needs an adaptor though.
> 
> Also got my beady eye on a Tung Sol round plate.


I will be glad to hear your opinions on E80CC.


----------



## Zinfin

bcowen said:


> Unless the thing has been just used to death the bias and english potentiometers are pretty reliable. They may need cleaned, but the backs are open so it's easy to get to the windings.  The main thing you want to do is replace the electrolytic caps if they are the originals. Ticking time bombs at 50+ years old regardless of usage. Been a long time since I did mine, but IIRC there's only 3 or 4 in there that need replaced and they're very easy to get to. Get the values off the caps themselves if you can -- Hickok was famous for making circuit modifications without updating the manuals, so the parts list in the manual may or may not be accurate. Basic soldering skills are all that's needed. Avoid DeOxit like the plague inside these testers. It leaves a residue that can soak into the phenolic wafers the rotary switches are built up from and will become conductive over time destroying the accuracy of the tester.  As a general rule, if a switch or pot (rotary or up/down) is working correctly and smoothly, leave it alone. Only clean and/or lubricate if the action is rough or moving the knob or pot causes things to jump around unpredictably. Also, don't plug it in and fire it up as soon as you get it out of the box. Type 83 tubes don't like being jostled around and need time to settle. Let it sit and take in its new surroundings for at least an hour. Why the 83 tube was used so widely in these testers (and not just Hickoks) is very strange, as most of them were designed to be portable and the 83 wasn't.  I don't want to go further off-track in this thread so I'll quit here, but if there's anything else I can help with shoot me a PM.



To be on the cautious side, it may be wise to replace all the electrolytic caps as soon as 20 years after their manufacture date.


----------



## ilikepooters

Zinfin said:


> To be on the cautious side, it may be wise to replace all the electrolytic caps as soon as 20 years after their manufacture date.




Would it be better to replace with solid electrolyte caps? I'm guessing years down the line won't have to worry about electrolyte evaporation.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## ilikepooters (Nov 3, 2018)

I'm troubled...

Just rolled back in the NEVZ 6N1P-EV and i think it sounds better than the uber expensive Marconi B65 (at least with my HE-500's, have no other full sized headphones to compare)

The mild U shape to the sound signature pairs very well with the HE-500, and the tube sounds cleaner, not as "tubey" as the B65.

The 6N1P or any NEVZ sounded junk in the original Lyr 1, so Lyr 3 must be operating far closer to the sweet spot of this tube.

A $5 tube punching at or above a $500 tube troubles me a tad  I think the B65 might go back on eBay.

*EDIT* Found a pair on eBay, mine are '67's but these are '63's so similar vintage: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1963-Mat...=item1c9ede1f9a:g:Fw0AAOSwODFaY30b:rk:24:pf:0


----------



## ProfFalkin

ilikepooters said:


> A $5 tube punching at or above a $500 tube troubles me a tad  I think the B65 might go back on eBay.


My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.


----------



## FLTWS

6SN7 LISST lacks the sex appeal of a tube.  Even a socket savers lift doesn’t improve its looks, maybe better buried down inside a bit, LOL! I’ll let it burn in for a couple days while I await delivery of my “last” (I’m dead X%&*#@  serious, this time) tube on order to arrive.  A Grant Fidelity Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE Limited Edition Lowest noise - Grade A, single tube. 





I've been following @earnmyturns listening evals with the  GF Limited Edition Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE and based on my satisfaction with GF's plain vanilla 6SN7 and their CV181 / TII (still a 6SN7) versions I figured I'd complete my GF collection.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

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## Ripper2860

That ranks as the worst photoshop job I've ever seen.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> That ranks as the worst photoshop job I've ever seen.


Probably Adobe vomit all over this photoshopped job


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## Ripper2860 (Nov 4, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Only you would expect high quality pictures of vomit.



Yeah -- I guess expecting the vomit to be on the same plane as the desktop is asking a bit too much.  I, unlike you, take great pride in ALL that I do.  
You get  an 'F' for this one, but I will give you an opportunity to re-submit a more realistic rendition for a 'C'.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Yeah -- I guess expecting the vomit to be on the same plane as the desktop is asking a bit too much.  I, unlike you, take great pride in ALL that I do.
> You get  an 'F' for this one, but I will give you an opportunity to re-submit a more realistic rendition for a 'C'.


I will give Bill a C- if he promises NOT to re-submit more vomit photos...


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## FLTWS (Nov 4, 2018)

bcowen said:


> A LISST?  No wonder there's a pile of Lyr vomit on the table.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, very interested in your thoughts on the Treasure when you get it.



_"Seriously, very interested in your thoughts on the Treasure when you get it."_

Me too, I'll post. I've got many of the "highly regarded" others; Ken-Rad VT231 (a favorite) WH's in "D" and "Halo" versions, a bunch of Sylvania's, some Foton's (another goody)...
In searching out opinions on the Psvane / Grant Fidelity offerings they are all over the place with regard to sound and durability.
I've found they (Psvanes) could use a bit more burn-in than usual but as I got over 50 and approaching 100 hours I find they are pretty uniform in F/R from top to bottom without any specific
"grabs my attention areas" and that makes for long term listen-ability for me personally.
But I also recognize that others may prefer more of this or less of that in the sound presentation, to each there own. Just be satisfied.


----------



## Ripper2860

I checked in with Jason, and he states LISST stands for *L*uxuriating *I*n *S*mooth and *S*ultry *T*ubeyness.

My Lyr tube rolling days are over!!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> More like *L*acking *I*n '*S*taging, *S*paciousness, and *T*imbre.



As stated by someone that's never heard one.  

I, however, own one and can factually state...


That you are correct.


----------



## earnmyturns

FLTWS said:


> I've found they (Psvanes) could use a bit more burn-in than usual but as I got over 50 and approaching 100 hours I find they are pretty uniform in F/R from top to bottom without any specific
> "grabs my attention areas" and that makes for long term listen-ability for me personally.


That's what I've been liking the 6SN7-SE for, compared with the runner-up (1944 Ken-Rad VT231), both on the Lyr 3 and on the Apex Peak. I should do some further comparisons sometime, but my home office is all in a shambles because of some coming wall and shelving work, so I don't want to be messing about with fragile amps and tubes. Once that's all done and all the gear is reinstalled on its custom shelves next to my desk, I'll have a nice layout for lots of experimentation (2 streamers, 2 DACs, 2 amps, multiple tubes).


----------



## ilikepooters (Nov 6, 2018)

Rolled into the adaptor the Russian 6S5S tubes today which are the russian equivalent of the western 6C5G tubes.







I'm rather surprised, i thought this was experimenting a tad too far but at the price i thought what could it hurt?

Tube is quite warm i feel, not massively so but warmer than most others i've tried, if anyones heard an RCA 5692, it's a little warmer than that.

This is where it gets interesting... soundstage is huge, imaging is impressive. Very 3D, usually only hear soundstaging like this on more neutral tubes in my experience with Lyr 3, never in combination with this amount of bass.

Mids are quite rich sounding, meaty.

Treble is laid back but very detailed and natural sounding. Lacks some airiness though.

Great separation of instruments.


I thought i'd end up chucking these in the bin but i'm pleasantly surprised 

If anyone wants to look out for these, mine are '56 Reflektors, not found any other makes yet fom Russia.


----------



## Rowethren

ilikepooters said:


> Rolled into the adaptor the Russian 6S5S tubes today which are the russian equivalent of the western 6C5G tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is madness... 


NO! THIS IS TUBE TOWN!!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Rowethren

They look SUUPPPEEER high quality lol...


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## ilikepooters (Nov 7, 2018)

E80CC sounds promising, just rolled in a Tungsram E80CC with one of my home made adaptors from Lyr 1 years ago. Not burned in yet so would be unfair to pass judgement. Sounds nice so far 


No magic smoke yet either


----------



## pure5152

Anyone know where I can buy more Raytheon vt-231 tubes?  

After trying numerous tubes (stock NOS, upgrade tung sol, Raytheon GTB), the Raytheon vt-231 just sounds best with my gumby -> lyr 3 -> eikon system.  Good dynamics (with great slam), soundstage in all directions, good in both low/high gain, and a balanced sound signature that complements the eikon.  I think I'll be sticking with this tube for the long haul.


----------



## FLTWS

Just a suggestion: BRENT JESSEE RECORDING & SUPPLY, INC.

http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm


----------



## ilikepooters (Nov 11, 2018)

Tungsram E80CC... what LISST should have been?

Now from what i've been reading there are 2 types of E80CC, ones that are Tungsram, and ones that.. well.. aren't. The others seem to have all been made by Phillips in Heerlen. I've read reviews that say the Heerlen's are warmer but less resolving, pretty much everyone prefer's the Tungsram, but to each their own 

Been cooking this one for a while now and really enjoying it. It doesn't really sound tubey at all, sounds more like _good_ solid state, by which i mean fairly accurate but not too thin or clinical sounding

Tube is really fast and detailed, dry would be too harsh a word to describe it, accurate maybe? Not too coloured? Has quite a neutral signature but smooth, edges seem well rounded but not to the point you could describe as liquid. Bass has mild warmth and very good extension. Mids are neutral maybe a tad smoother than most tubes but again not quite liquid.

I'd say the treble is a little bright (for my taste) but most would describe it as neutral, my ears are accustomed to laid back treble, this has maybe a tad more zing and energy than i'm used to but very detailed.

Not the best tube in terms of imaging, soundstage not the widest but separation of instruments is good.

Overall it's the good kind of neutral, the kind of neutral that has a fullness about it.

If only LISST sounded like this,


Definitely worth rolling, but you'll need an adaptor for use in Lyr 3 due to having a 12v heater (which handily, is centre tapped)

Which reminds me i made my own adaptors for this tube back in Lyr 1 days as below (the black one) Basically converts E80CC to 6DJ8 other adaptor then converts to 6SN7 socket. The tube actually arrived in the post before the proper adaptor and i remembered i made these so had a rummage in the drawer and found a few still left over.







Looks a bit ridiculous fully assembled


----------



## Rowethren

That is certainly a grower not a shower...


----------



## ProfFalkin

Someone's compensating for something...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS (Nov 12, 2018)

I also posted this on the Schiit Happens thread. (Somebody had to take one for the team)

I finished my eval of the LISST for my LYR-3 yesterday morning, here are my thoughts;



Spoiler: LISST in LYR-3



My final thoughts on LISST with LYR-3

I cooked the LISST in for 8 days, playing music and test tones during waking hours to break it in and leaving it on over nights. Probably 20 hours of listening time total.

I didn’t compare it to any of my tubes as I knew there would be more substantial differences in the sound but did compared it to my Ragnarok.

I heard nothing significant in the frequency response, imaging and noise levels between the two.

The most notable differences compared to my Ragnarok were;

1. Sound Stage: More forward and flat with the LISST

2. Highs: a bit harsher / grainier /splashy with the LISST

3. No sense of roundness or 3D-like illusion to the sound of individual or solo instruments

4. Lack of air and poorer ambience retrieval

I prefer the sound of my Jotunheim to the LYR-3 plus LISST. While it is also a bit forward compared to the Ragnarok it still sounds better to me in the 4 categories above.

As an emergency backup the LISST could serve a purpose but what’s the likely hood that those who own a LYR-3 won’t have at least 1 each of the stock 6SN7 and 6N8S. And, I gotta’ believe that like me, many will have a suitcase full of tube rolling options available if one should fail. For those who prefer Passive or JFET Buffer modes to tube in their Freya they could be a good investment.

Equipment Used:  NuPrime CDT-8 transport (AES and Coax) feeding   Yggdrasil B. All analog cabling was Dana Cable, digital cabling by Straight Wire. An assortment of Chesky and Sheffield CD’s for critical listening. HP’s were Abyss 1266 Phi CC and Utopia.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Nov 12, 2018)

FLTWS said:


> I also posted this on the Schiit Happens thread. (Somebody had to take one for the team)
> 
> I finished my eval of the LISST for my LYR-3 yesterday morning, here are my thoughts;
> 
> ...


I think my overall impression of the LISST could be summarized as:   

Hey, this sounds pretty good!  Yeah, not bad at all.  I like it!   
_
<Swap in a real tube>_ 

Oooooohhh...  ok.   Uhh... Yeah, never mind.  This is what that's supposed to sound like.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 12, 2018)

I have found the perfect use for LISST -- at least for me.  Whenever I feel the urge to buy another tube, I drop in LISST and it reminds me of how good the tubes I have really sound thus reducing the urge to buy more tubes.  Kinda like a Methadone for the tube rolling addict trying to kick the habit!


----------



## Carolina Pitbull

I have been following this thread for some time.  I bought the Lyr 3 and currently use the Russian 6N8S (NOS) and Tung-Sol 6SN7 (New) from Schiit.  I want to try some other tubes but to be honest this thread has me completely confused.  I was hoping to get some recommendations from the more experienced members (pretty much all of you).  I have 3 headphones that I use with the Lyr 3:

1. Senn HD 6XX - Used probably 75%
2. Oppo PM 3 - Used probably 20%
3. Shure SRH 1540 - Almost never used as it stays at work

I listen to a pretty large range of music.  Pretty much all types of rock from the 60's to now (classic, heavy metal, hard rock, industrial, goth).  Since I have gotten into headphones I have also dabbled in a bit of funk, classical and jazz music.  Let's call it 75% rock and 25% other.  

So all I need from you fine people is the single tube that overlaps all 3 headphones and my musical taste and doesn't cost a small fortune!    Obviously a tall order so feel free to narrow down your suggestions as you see fit.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 12, 2018)

My recommendations after 50+ tubes is as follows:

1. Sylvania 6SN7GT 2 or 3-hole Bad Boy (1951-1953): http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm
2. Westinghouse 6SN7GTB with top D-shaped getter holder and black ladder off-set plates: ( these are hard to find, but if you e-mail Brent Jesse from the above link (audiotubes.com) he may have 1 or 2.)
3. 1950's Foton ribbed plate 68NS / 6SN7: (https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6SN7-ECC32-1578-1952-Year-Tested-FOTON-NOS-TUBES-LOT-OF-2/152643173507?hash=item238a3dfc83:g:ZuwAAOSwuZpbyExR) **

** This is a reputable seller.  Several here (myself included) have purchased from this fellow.

BTW -- they all sound great with the HD6XX


----------



## FLTWS (Nov 12, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> My recommendations after 50+ tubes is as follows:
> 
> 1. Sylvania 6SN7GT 2 or 3-hole Bad Boy (1951-1953): http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm
> 2. Westinghouse 6SN7GTB with top D-shaped getter holder and black ladder off-set plates: ( these are hard to find, but if you e-mail Brent Jesse from the above link (audiotubes.com) he may have 1 or 2.
> ...



Good starting choices because they do sound great (I don't have the Bad Boy but general consensus implies great sound) and no adapters required. But you may want a tube lifter to have the LYR-3 run cooler (in my experience) and give it sex appeal. I've spent many hours with the Westinghouse and Foton's and they along with a very few others are the pick of the adapter free litter. And I've had many purchases with Brent Jesse, he's a reputable source with reasonable pricing. There are many other good, trustworthy vendors as well but here's where I'd start.

Edit: You could also contact Brent, give you genre and sonic wish list and let him suggest.
AND: forgot, Ken-Rad VT-231 - mine has great bass.


----------



## ilikepooters

Don't know about your headphones but the best tube i've found for rock is the NEVZ 6N1P with adaptor.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> My recommendations after 50+ tubes is as follows:
> 
> 1. Sylvania 6SN7GT 2 or 3-hole Bad Boy (1951-1953): http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm
> 2. Westinghouse 6SN7GTB with top D-shaped getter holder and black ladder off-set plates: ( these are hard to find, but if you e-mail Brent Jesse from the above link (audiotubes.com) he may have 1 or 2.)
> ...





FLTWS said:


> AND: forgot, Ken-Rad VT-231 - mine has great bass.



These.   My personal favorite is still the Westinghouse D-getter for overall sound, but the Fotons are slightly more... energetic sounding. 

Also, I don't know if @FLTWS means the Ken-Rad VT-231 Black Glass or not.   The black glass gets my recommendation, but the clear glass was way to bright for my tastes.  (Or was it rolled off...  I forget.   All I know is I don't use it anymore.)


----------



## FLTWS

ProfFalkin said:


> These.   My personal favorite is still the Westinghouse D-getter for overall sound, but the Fotons are slightly more... energetic sounding.
> 
> Also, I don't know if @FLTWS means the Ken-Rad VT-231 Black Glass or not.   The black glass gets my recommendation, but the clear glass was way to bright for my tastes.  (Or was it rolled off...  I forget.   All I know is I don't use it anymore.)



Yes, black glass, that's what Brent sent me. Have not heard a clear glass.


----------



## Carolina Pitbull

Ripper2860 said:


> My recommendations after 50+ tubes is as follows:
> 
> 1. Sylvania 6SN7GT 2 or 3-hole Bad Boy (1951-1953): http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm
> 2. Westinghouse 6SN7GTB with top D-shaped getter holder and black ladder off-set plates: ( these are hard to find, but if you e-mail Brent Jesse from the above link (audiotubes.com) he may have 1 or 2.)
> ...



So thanks for the recommendations everyone.  I have decided to go with @Ripper2860 's suggestion of the Bad Boy.  I just got off the phone with Brent Jessee's outfit and I am now eagerly awaiting a pair from my friendly neighborhood postman!  Thanks all.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Carolina Pitbull

bcowen said:


> Firstly, never _ever_ go with any of @Ripper2860 's recommendations on anything. Especially tubes. And women.
> Secondly, of all the recommendations he's made, that's one of them.
> Thirdly, nevermind the first two -- that was a really good recommendation.    The Bad Boys are (IMO) a tube you just can't go wrong with.
> 
> If the tubes you're getting are NOS, be sure and give them 25 hours or so of play time to break in before any critical evaluation. If they're used, then a few hours to warm up to their new home will be sufficient.  Then enjoy!



I will do my personal best to refrain from commenting on the tube until 25 hours have passed!


----------



## buonassi

Carolina Pitbull said:


> I will do my personal best to refrain from commenting on the tube until 25 hours have passed!


ataboy! Think of it like dating....  put in the obligatory introduction time before you 'get it on'.


----------



## tafens

Those of you having listened to both the stock Russian NOS 6N8S and new production Tung-Sol 6NS7, how would you describe the differences between them?


----------



## ProfFalkin

tafens said:


> Those of you having listened to both the stock Russian NOS 6N8S and new production Tung-Sol 6NS7, how would you describe the differences between them?


Stock nos = laid back, mid rich, mellow.   NPTS = energetic, if a little peaky up top, with good staging.


----------



## Freeflap (Nov 21, 2018)

After much deliberating, I pulled the trigger on westinghouse Dgetters. Should be here today. So, I am officially done buying tubes.

7n7 franken: check
sylvania badboy 3 hole: check
sylvania badboy 2 hole: check
fotons 1953: check
brimar black and orange: check
lisst: check Ha ha!
stock tungsol: check
misc other tubes : check

I find that the generic sylvanias and westinghouse 6sn7gt are decent all around performers, but in the end, i simply love my other tubes so much more, that they don't get much use. will unload the misc stuff on the bay most likely.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Rowethren

All of the above?


----------



## Ripper2860

I've never met a tube I didn't like.


----------



## Freeflap

Sorry that wasn't clear. I bought a bunch of generic sylvania and westlinghouse 6sn7 tubes as a lot. none were badboy or dgetters. They sound good but nothing to write home about. 
MY favorite tubes:

badboys either 3 or 2 hole. both are great. Rich warm and buttery. with deep powerful bass. LOVE the bass. I am a subwoofer fan and love when you can feel it and not just hear it. 
brimar: for acoustic and classical can't be beat. Very clean overall tube with just the right amount of warmth that makes it sound rich without being sloppy or too "tubey"
7n7: very rich and tubey. Euphonic and sweet. Perhaps not as neutral or clean but love it nevertheless. 

honestly, i'm not in love with the fotons. but maybe I didn't give them enough burn in time. Someone here mentioned they need 100 hours?  sound is a bit dry / boring. clean but not exciting.


----------



## Freeflap

My ht setup. Twin 18"sealed subs. Each is powered with a 1400 watt plate amp. Yummy bass. Shakes the house!


----------



## Freeflap

next project is to upgrade my ether flows. seems like they have new pads and filters to tailor the sound. Should be worth a try.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Freeflap

bcowen said:


> Cool.  Thanks for clarifying. As far as the Foton, 'boring' is the last term I'd use to describe it. In fact it along with the Frankie and 3-hole BB are my favorites for rhythm and swing and rockin' out. 100 hours is the bare minimum for it to get fully in its groove. Prior to that it's a roller coaster ride alternating between sounding very good and very _not_ good. You might want to give it some more play time and see what happens.


Good to know. I will go back and give the fotons more amp time. will reply after i put another 100 hours on them. thx!


----------



## Freeflap

bcowen said:


> You must not be married. All that money in equipment but no curtains.
> 
> Kidding...sweet looking setup!


Ha ha!!!! I forgot to say basement HT. It's the only part of the house where I get a small say in what happens!! Wife is very reasonable. She told me she is reasonable so I am forced to agree.


----------



## Freeflap

BTW, i love my rbh speakers. The subs were made by elemental designs which is now bankrupt unfortunately. When it's time to replace them, i will go tekton double impacts. Sorry for off topic.


----------



## ScubaMan2017

Freeflap said:


> ....{snip}......Sorry for off topic.


?!


----------



## earnmyturns

Freeflap said:


> next project is to upgrade my ether flows. seems like they have new pads and filters to tailor the sound. Should be worth a try.


Have the new filters on my C Flows, significant improvement in quantity and clarity in the lower mids, more coherent between that and bass, even better treble attack and decay. Waiting for the new pads to arrive.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## earnmyturns

bcowen said:


> I see there are some new filters even for us lowly Aeon cheapskates. Hmmmm....more pads, or more tubes?


Jump into the deep end, both!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Happy turkey day fellas!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860

Ditto!


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## Ripper2860

Be sure to post up pics of the bird!!!!


And the turkey too,  if you get a chance!!    

(Damn, I crack myself up.)


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## ItsAllInMyHead

ProfFalkin said:


> Happy turkey day fellas!


Thank you!  Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!


----------



## ilikepooters

Might have to disregard most of my tube impressions, i was messing about today and realised i still had the default driver installed in Windows 10 for my Lyr 3, checked for updates and a new driver installed and this time says multibit. Fired up a few songs and there's a marked improvement in detail and resolution.

Looks like i'm going to have to audition all my tubes again 

Also happy turkey day for those in 'merica


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## earnmyturns

Current test: NOS 1950 Sylvania (Bad Boy) two-hole (via Brent Jessee).

Christian McBride's New Jawn (24/96 FLAC)>Roon>Metrum Ambre>Metrum Onyx>Lyr 3+Bad Boy>Ether C Flow 1.1 (black foam filter).

Excellent bass volume and timbre for kick drum and of course McBride's so melodious double bass, crisp cymbal edges (drummer Nasheet Waits is a master of understanding timing), just enough grit in the mids for Josh Evan's trumpet and Marcus Strickland's sax. A bit less separated front-to-back, a bit more congested than the Peak+Psvane ensemble, but delightful nonetheless.


----------



## Freeflap

earnmyturns said:


> Have the new filters on my C Flows, significant improvement in quantity and clarity in the lower mids, more coherent between that and bass, even better treble attack and decay. Waiting for the new pads to arrive.


good to know. about to order new pads and filters.


----------



## davisman

I am in tube heaven right now. I have in my possession right now Telefunken 7dj8s,  Matsushita 7dj8, some valvo 6201's, plus some of the new production tubes you can buy. 

I spent all last night with the telefunken's, and they are pretty special. They are an excellent pairing with my th900s, slightly warm for my E2 headphones. 

Today is for the Matsushita's. Initial impressions are this tube is an excellent value, vintage quality at new production prices. I probably paid too much for the 7dj8s but I have had good experiences with upscale and their tubes. Id rather pay a little more and not have to worry.


----------



## Freeflap

just opened up my westlinghouse d getter. oh boy! right away this is an amazing tube. Does everything right. rich full sound. clear trebles. likelike piano. love it so far. great bass extension, but not as deep bass as my 3 hole badboy, but still is fantastic


----------



## cebuboy

Can you guys make the first post a listing of your fave tubes as a guide? Hard to go through 183+ pages here


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## Rowethren

Would be good if it had the description of the top tubes as well so people know what they are looking for.


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## ilikepooters (Nov 26, 2018)

I'll go edit.

*EDIT*

Edited first post, feel free to chime in with any additions or quotable posts with pictures that you think might help in identifying certain tubes 


Also, sound impressions of the sylvania bad boy, anyone with experience describe this tubes signature?

Also the Fotons?

And the Frankentube?


I've never heard a bad boy and not great at describing sound


----------



## cebuboy

ilikepooters said:


> I'll go edit.
> 
> *EDIT*
> 
> ...



Thank you sir.

I only tried the Sylvania 2 hole 6SN7 "bad boy" type, sounds soft, polite and laid back to my ears with the LCD2F. Wonder how the 3 hole version sounds... Lots of tubes to try like the staggered plates, parallel plates, angled plate variants of the 6SN7.

The Melz 6H8C ribbed plates are my favorite seconded by the Foton ribbed plates, then the Foton smooth plates with ears. Sound is dynamic with good lows and airy highs.


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## mvn1

Hey folks,

Im looking for a specific tube, hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

I'm after a 1945 era (or thereabouts) Sylvania JAN 6SN7W tall bottle - Brent Jesse doesn't have these in stock but does anyone know where I can source them, or better yet have one they wish to offload? 

Thanks!


----------



## ilikepooters

Any impressions of the 2 or 3 hole bad boys? Looking to quote a response to put in the OP.

So far i've heard it's a bass monster and laid back. How are the mids, the highs and soundstaging etc?

differences between 2 and 3 hole?

Also a picture of one, i'm too lazy to scroll back through the thread


----------



## kyle_martin

Hey guys,

Lyr 3 and LCD 3 user here...I am running the stock Schiit Tube (non Tung-Sol) and am looking to switch things up a bit. I would love to have a bit more bass quantity and/or a bit more detail. Any thoughts on where I should start with tubes? I'd like to keep it under $100 for the tube unless its a slam dunk, home run type of tube.

Best Regards,

Kyle


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## earnmyturns (Nov 28, 2018)

ilikepooters said:


> Any impressions of the 2 or 3 hole bad boys? Looking to quote a response to put in the OP.
> 
> So far i've heard it's a bass monster and laid back. How are the mids, the highs and soundstaging etc?
> 
> ...



Two-hole 1950 Sylvania Bad Boy. Full-bodied, maybe slightly metallic but well-defined bass, smooth mids and highs, now smudgy on transients but not the fastest, relatively small but well-separated soundstage. Not quite up to the Psvane 6SN7-SE in overall competence, but great value @ $55 from Brent Jessee.


----------



## earnmyturns

kyle_martin said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Lyr 3 and LCD 3 user here...I am running the stock Schiit Tube (non Tung-Sol) and am looking to switch things up a bit. I would love to have a bit more bass quantity and/or a bit more detail. Any thoughts on where I should start with tubes? I'd like to keep it under $100 for the tube unless its a slam dunk, home run type of tube.


See the Bad Boy mini-review I just posted on the thread.


----------



## mvn1

Hey Folks

One question - is the JAN 5692 RCA redbase worth it? 

I've got a bunch of Sylvania & Ken Rad 6SN7GT's on the way, including 3-hole bad boy, all late '40-early '50 period.

As much as I'm itching to drop ~$200 on it, would be good to get feedback from the community....


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## Ripper2860 (Dec 6, 2018)

I'd pass.  Several have stated that the RCA and CBS/Hytron 5692 are not an exceptional pairing with Lyr 3.  While I have not tried an RCA, I have tried a CBS/Hytron and I can personally attest that it is nothing exceptional and certainly not at the high price.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## cebuboy (Nov 28, 2018)

ilikepooters said:


> Any impressions of the 2 or 3 hole bad boys? Looking to quote a response to put in the OP.
> 
> So far i've heard it's a bass monster and laid back. How are the mids, the highs and soundstaging etc?
> 
> ...



Have not yet tried a 3-hole bad boy, only the 2-hole type. Bass is not that exceptional with the LCD2F. I still find the Foton 6H8C ribbed plates better in that regard, so does the Melz ribbed plates. If you look closely, all three have similar plate construction.

L-R Melz 6H8C, Foton 6H8C, Sylvania 6SN7GT


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

mvn1 said:


> Hey Folks
> 
> One question - is the JAN 5692 RCA redbase worth it?
> 
> ...




RCA red base 5692 is very un-exciting in Lyr 3, does most things well but is not very exciting, soundstage is small and treble a bit too relaxed. Worth having if you can get one for free, not worth paying for though.

Never heard the Hytron version, but i have however heard the disputed Westinghouse version (Some say only RCA and GE/Hytron made these)

There's still one knocking about on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WESTINGH...h=item3b2104d4fb:g:JwkAAOSw8U9br6Nv:rk:9:pf:0

Having the 337 mfg code makes me think Westinghouse did make 5692's maybe in small number, but it could just be an unscrupulous re-label. Mine did re-assuringly come in a genuine Westinghouse Reliatron box and looks legit. Mine was from same seller.

The westinghouse one i have sounds much better than the RCA red base 5692, much more open sounding and more resolving with not quite as much warmth but still a warm tube.


----------



## mvn1

Thanks folks - I owe you all a beer - you just saved me $200.

I have the following tubes (all late 40 early 50s)

6SN7GT - VT-231 JAN Ken Rad, blackplates, blackglass, bottom getter, medium glass envelope.

6SN7GT Sylvania, triangular blackplate clearglass, bottom getter, medium glass envelope, "Bad Boy" type - 3-rivet hole

6SN7GT RCA blackplate, GREYGLASS, short glass envelope
Plus the Schiit issued Tung-sol. 

Does anyone have any suggestions on other tubes worth getting for the Lyr3? I’m tempted to pull the trigger on the following tube

6SN7W JAN Sylvania blackplate clearglass, black base, heavy top getter flashing (1945)

Thoughts?

Cheers


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## Ripper2860 (Nov 28, 2018)

The W is an excellent tube. My favorite is the tall bottle.  

The 3-Holes bad boy has more bass slam, but the W has a much wider and open soundstage, with silkier mids.  W is not bass-shy, just not as pronounced as the BB.


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## Scrith (Nov 28, 2018)

I recently picked-up a Lyr 3 (w/ Uptone Regen feeding it from my work PC running JRMC, using Aeon Flow Closed headphones w/ a Corpse Cable) and have been experimenting with quite a few tubes I've picked up in the past couple of weeks, here's my feedback so far:

1.  *Ken-Rad 6SN7GT VT-231*, black glass, black flat plates, foil D-getter, tested 95/93-- this is my favorite tube so far, although it holds that position by a slim margin.  Excellent bass, treble, and an engaging mid-range.
2.  *CBS/Hytron 5692 JAN-CHY*, brown base w/ red text, black plates, was NIB/NOS -- an excellent tube, and it isn't even fully broken in yet (I've put about 8 hours onto it).
3.  *Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boy (3-hole)*, tri-backplate, medium clear glass, bottom-getter, NOS (from Brent Jessee) -- very similiar to the CBS/Hytron 5692, although the bass might be a just a bit weaker (I'm going to need to spend more time comparing those two I think).
4.  *Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boy (2-hole)*, tested 2290/1540 -- I was disappointed, especially when I heard the 3-hole version afterwards, which really surprised me because I had read that the 2-hole and 3-hole versions sound the same, which makes me wonder if there is a bit of information missing from the tube comparisons I've read so far (quite a few of them).  _In particular, It seems likely that the performance of a tube depends somewhat on how long it has been used, which is going to make tube rolling quite a bit more difficult (to do it properly, you should only compare tubes with a similar amount of usage time, it seems)._
5.  *Sylvania 6SN7GT JAN-CHS VT-231*, tested 3275/2950 -- this is probably the worst tube I've heard so far...very light on bass.  Maybe mine is a bit overused or damaged?
6.  *TungSol 6SN7GT w/ Mouse Ears*, labelled as Zenith, black "T" plates, 2 round-top mmica side supports, NOS (from Brent Jessee) -- excellent tube, perhaps just a bit thin on bass, otherwise it would be right up there with the Ken-Rad.

Next up:
- *RCA 5692 red base* NOS (arrived today) from eBay (my most expensive tube so far).
- *Foton, Melz, and Nevz* tubes (and an adapter for the one that needs it) are on the way from Russia!  We'll see how long that takes...
- *Westinghouse 6SN7GTB* w/ offset black plates, D-getter, tall bottle, NOS
- *Sylvania 6SN7A*, black base
- *Sylvania 6SN7W JAN-CHS*


----------



## earnmyturns

mvn1 said:


> Hey Folks
> 
> One question - is the JAN 5692 RCA redbase worth it?
> 
> ...


In your shoes, I'd listen to the tubes you have already on the way. Both Ken Rads and Sylvania Bad Boys from that period can do very well in the Lyr 3. The only tube I prefer to those is a $200 new Psvane 6SN7-SE, but if cost is a concern, the other tubes are very satisfying.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## buonassi

All we need is you @bcowen.


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## Scrith (Dec 7, 2018)

Update on my tube rolling with Lyr 3 & Aeon Flow Closed:

My CBS/Hytron 5692 (tested 83/80) has officially surpassed my Ken-Rad 6SN7GT (black glass, tested 95/93) after some careful comparisons today.  The Ken-Rad is fantastic, and currently #2 on my personal list, but my CBS/Hytron squeezes a bit more detail and clarity out of the songs I use for comparisons.

My RCA Red Base 5692 sounds fantastic as well, with exceptional detail and clarity, but perhaps a bit muddier on bass than the CBS/Hytron 5692.  With the trade-offs I'd say it is comparable to the Ken-Rad mentioned above, overall (I rate both as 9.5/10 on my personal scale).

Keep in mind this doesn't mean the CBS/Hytron 5692 is the best tube for Lyr 3, it just means my CBS/Hytron 5692 is the best tube I've heard in the Lyr 3 so far!


----------



## ilikepooters

If you think the 5692 is good wait until you try a Brimar 6SN7 or a Marconi B65


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Scrith

I did some more rolling today (Syl 6SN7A, Syl 6SN7W, CBS 5692, Syl 2-hole Bad Boy (which sounded a bit weak the first time I tested it), and a Syl 3-hole Bad Boy.  Results:

1.  Sylvania 3-hole Bad Boy & CBS 5692.  I need to compare these more carefully to know which is "better" in my setup.
3.  Sylvania 2-hole Bad Boy.  Much better than the last time I heard it (it was one of the first tubes I listened to in my Lyr 3, so maybe the amp wasn't quite broken in yet).  I'd put it a notch below the 3-hole, but I have a thought on that below!
4.  Sylvania 6SN7W.  Sounded great, perhaps a bit light on bass and kind of "dull" in general.
5.  Sylvania 6SN7A.  Not much bass, quite dull.

One of things I noticed today is that the tubes give me different playback volumes.  I assume this might have to do with tube gain diminishing over time?  if so, comparisons need to take that into account, since, generally, people think louder music sounds better.  Sorry if I'm a bit rusty, I haven't really done much tube rolling in the last 10 years or so (since I was using a Singlepower amp back in the day with my Sony Qualia headphones).

Tomorrow I'll try some others vs. the two #1s here (Ken-Rad 6SN7GT, RCA redbase 5692, TungSol mouse ears).

Help, I'm falling into the trap of buying too many tubes.    Yes, a Marconi, Brimar, and some Russian tubes are on the way (I can't be sure exactly what these Russian tubes are until I see them, but I ordered a Foton, Melz, and Nevz).


----------



## ProfFalkin

Welcome to the dark side.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

True.  Bogus concept.  Reality is that one is always just one tube short of too many.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ripper2860 said:


> True.  Bogus concept.  Reality is that one is always just one tube short of too many.


Too Many = n + 1


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

KoshNaranek said:


> Too Many = n + 1


Love it!

Simplified and taken to first principles.

Too few = n

The system can never reach equilibrium...


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## mvn1

Hey folks, rather than going back through 185 pages, what's the best 'extension' adapter to get the tube base out of the Lyr3 body?


----------



## FLTWS

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2831175912...il&pgrp=main:email&e=op&mchn=em&s=ci&mail=sys


----------



## mvn1

Champion thanks. Ordered!


----------



## ilikepooters

mvn1 said:


> Champion thanks. Ordered!




Be sure to check it over with a multimeter for shorts, never had a problem with those but can never be too careful


----------



## ilikepooters

Westinghouse GTB D gettters, including a short bottle:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Westingh...h=item3d7c4be3b8:g:0GwAAOSwJ~xcCyBs:rk:3:pf:0


----------



## ilikepooters

A rarity? Westinghouse 6SN7GTA but with side D getter, has the 337 code on the tube indicating Westinghouse manufacture, but could be a shameless re-lable:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Westingh...h=item1a688c9939:g:ZosAAOSwu3ZcBrhU:rk:8:pf:0


----------



## Scrith (Dec 14, 2018)

A strange day of rolling for me...  I tested a CBS/Hytron 5692 (to set a base for what I consider to be a good tube), 2 Sylvania 6SN7GTAs (chrome dome and black base), 2 Westinghouse 6SN7GTA (Offset black plates, D-getter, tall bottle, NOS), and a Sylvania 6SN7GT (JAN-CHS).

I said the day was strange because they all sounded quite good with only subtle differences (highs and/or bass).  Do you guys ever have a day where you just can't tell them apart very well?

And another question:  the Chinese eBay seller from whom I bought a 6N1P-to-6SN7 adapter says he sent it, but I never got the adapter, so can anyone recommend a better place to get such an adapter?  I want to test my new Nevz tubes!


----------



## ProfFalkin

Scrith said:


> A strange day of rolling for me...  I tested a CBS/Hytron 5692 (to set a base for what I consider to be a good tube), 2 Sylvania 6SN7GTAs (chrome dome and black base), 2 Westinghouse 6SN7GTA (Offset black plates, D-getter, tall bottle, NOS), and a Sylvania 6SN7GT (JAN-CHS).
> 
> I said the day was strange because they all sounded quite good with only subtle differences (highs and/or bass).  Do you guys ever have a day where you just can't tell them apart very well?
> 
> And another question:  the Chinese eBay seller from whom I bought a 6N1P-to-6SN7 adapter says he sent it, but I never got the adapter, so can anyone recommend a better place to get such an adapter?  I want to test my new Nevz tubes!


Yeah, some days my ears just weren't in it for tube comparisons.   That's usually when I just stopped testing and just listened to the music.  Try again another day.


----------



## FLTWS

The more time I spend tube rolling the more the sounds keep running together. Sometimes I get a better sense of what I'm hearing with long term sessions (day(s) instead of quick A/B's. 
Now if I had a second LYR-3 with both running simultaneously......maybe.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bboris77

I just purchased a spare new production tung sol and as soon as I opened it I saw a small particle floating within the frame of the tube. It looked like dried glue or a filament of some sort. When I shook the tube, there was a very slight rattling sound. I did not even plug it into my amp because I was scared of damaging it or the headphones. I contacted the seller and asked for a replacement. 

My question is was I too paranoid or was my instinct right? I’ve bought many tubes before and have never seen stuff floating inside the glass before.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## mvn1

Hey folks,

I wanted to report some of my experiences with NOS tubes in the Lyr3, as well as ask some opinions on my next batch.
I tested these over a number of different music Genre's, including Classic (piano), Rock, and a broad range of modern music.

*6SN7GT - VT-231 JAN Ken Rad, blackplates, blackglass (1940's*) - What a tube - so well balanced. High's were perfect, could reach those high notes without fatigue or rattling my inner ear to wincing point. Bass was super tight, deep, without going overboard. Mids were well defined. If this was my only tube, I could totally live with that! It also was a bit 'quieter' than other tubes.

*6SN7GT Sylvania 3-hole 'Bad Boy' - *When I first heard this tube, I loved it, but over time, I've come to realise that while the bass is fantastic, and the mids are pretty good, the highs are a little fatiguing. All in all a great tube but for extended listening sessions of anything with significant highs (think piano, classical), it gets pretty tiresome. Still worth picking this tube up if you can!

*6SN7GT RCA blackplate, grey glass, late 1940's - *This tube has surprised me the most - and has had the biggest transformation since having being burnt in. In fact, this is my daily driver tube, well rounded. The word 'beautiful' comes to mind, but unlike the top two, the lows are less pronounced. I am planning to purchase a pair of these for a future Freya pre-amp. This is worth picking up!
*
JAN CHS 6SN7 GT VT 231 Sylvania Tube 1944 - *big caveat - I picked this up used so please don't let this commentary make or break your decision. Having said that the seller was reputable and it did test ok. I've heard great things about this tube, but for me, it wasn't as 'exciting' as the tubes above. Earlier in this thread someone made the comment about this tube that when listening to it, they may as well go and watch TV. While I disagree, it certainly isn't one I'd buy again. The high's had more of a 'ring' to them than I was used to it (when listening to some piano tracks i.e. Luke Howard), and I found myself fatiguing. The soundstage wasn't anything to celebrate either.

*6SN7GTA Mullard - Made in Australia - *I picked this one off Ebay, again used, but I was surprised Mullard made tubes in Australia! Overall, a pleasant tube to listen to, Lows were very present, but not like the 'Bad Boy' where you could feel your eardrums vibrate, and the low's weren't as tight as the Grey Glass RCA. Mids were warm, and the high's were contained and fine.

So now - I'm looking at the next round of tube purchases. Can anyone comment on any of the following:
5692 JAN CBS-Hytron brownbase, short glass envelope, 1950's/1960's
6SN7GTA early "Tall Boy" type, Sylvania Triangular Plates, Sylvania green label, early 1950s (I haven't head raving reviews about this)
SN7GT - VT-231 JAN Raytheon, blackplate greyglass, 1940's
6SN7GT TungSol made Mouse Ears - late 40's early 50's/

Your expertise are appreciated!

BTW, for anyone wondering, I purchased. my tubes through Brent Jesse, except for the last two. Brent has been great and I had a tube with crazy microphonics - he has replaced this free of charge!


----------



## ilikepooters

Don't know if anyone can help me here, but anyone know where i can get a 6SN7 with guaranteed specs, preferably in micromohs (like a standard tube)? Want to see how far out my Hickock 800A is and i don't have a tube i can trust.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

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----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> Upscale Audio might be able to help.
> 
> Better though to check the 800A for calibration:
> 
> ...



I have a Fluke 179.

Where it says "shunt resistor" does that basically mean test the voltage through the resistor instead of directly? Have the Fluke for work but as you can guess i don't use it very often


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> You want to use the resistor in parallel with your meter probes.  For example, on the plate voltage check stick one end of the resistor in pin 3 of the octal socket along with your meter's positive probe, and put the other end of the resistor in pin 8 along with your negative probe. There's just enough room to put both the meter probe and resistor lead in the hole and make good contact.  Without the shunt resistor your voltage readings will be very high (over 170vdc probably on the plate test). Today's meters have a very high input impedance compared to what Hickok used back in the day and the resistor helps approximate the difference.  In steps 1 - 10, use the shunt resistor for steps 5, 6, 7 and 8. Do NOT use it for steps 9 and 10 (use meter probes by themselves). Also pay attention to AC and DC test settings.




Looks like i'll have to join up a couple of lesser resistors in series for the 250K, can't seem to find one of those anywhere.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Found some 5w 1 meg but only 5%

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MOF5WS-1...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

have some 1/2w coming as well, 100k, 150k and 1 meg.


----------



## Scrith (Dec 26, 2018)

Just a quick note from my tube rolling today...  I just heard a Mullard ECC33 (sorry, I typed Brimar before fixing this post) for the first time after starting with a 3-hole Bad Boy (my current reference).  Wow!  It's quite impressive...I am hearing the strings on the bass vibrate like I've never heard before (on a recording I listen to daily).  Not to slight the Bad Boy at all, this one just takes it another step further, possibly a bit less bright (which is fine).  OK, back to rolling!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

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## earnmyturns

Puzzling tube behavior. Got home, turned on Lyr with Sylvania 2-hole Bad Boy, which was sounding great yesterday. Did not listen. Went to have dinner and talk about the days with my wife, came back to the Lyr around 1h30m later. Put on my headphones, before starting any music, and I heard a low high-pitched, variable, scratchy noise on the left side. It changed as I adjusted the volume. Turned off the Lyr, listened for a while to the Apex Peak. Let Lyr cool down, removed the tube with disposable vinyl glove, reseated it. Turned on Lyr, waited for on click. Weird noise gone. What's strange is that the tube was well seated originally AFAIK. Any suggestions?


----------



## FLTWS

In my experience just about anything can happen with tubes (especially NOS) when it comes to unexpected noises. See if you can repeat the scenario with that same tube.


----------



## ilikepooters

Anyone managed to try the NEVZ 6N1P-VI yet? @Ripper2860 @bcowen forget which of you said you were going to try it 

I've re-auditioned mine now i have the Bifrost hooked up and it's keeping up quite well. Really worth the extra $$$ vs the built-in multibit DAC.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yeah, that would have been Bill.


----------



## Scrith

ilikepooters said:


> Anyone managed to try the NEVZ 6N1P-VI yet? @Ripper2860 @bcowen forget which of you said you were going to try it


 I have 10, but no adapter to try them (I ordered one on eBay but the guy never sent it).


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Dec 19, 2018)

bcowen said:


> Wasn't me. @Ripper2860 's memory isn't what it never was.
> 
> I have some 6N1P's, but I'm pretty sure they're Reflektors. Haven't listened to them in the Lyr. Sounded very nice in the Vali2, but not in holy grail territory.



Never mind.  It was the 6N3Ps from AC that you suggested you might want to try after I raved about them in my VH2 in a PM.


----------



## Rowethren

I think there must be something wrong with me... 

Get this... 

I am using 3 Hole BB... 

And don't feel like buying any more tubes lol 

SHAME ON ME!


----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> Anybody try one of these yet? 6SN7GTB.  For $20 I figured it was worth a try. That, and I haven't bought any tubes in about 3 weeks and have been feeling kind of strange.



Looks like a relabelled russian tube, the plastic tabs that press against the inside of the glass envelope look the same as on the MELZ tubes.


----------



## Wes S

ilikepooters said:


> Looks like a relabelled russian tube, the plastic tabs that press against the inside of the glass envelope look the same as on the MELZ tubes.


My thoughts, as well.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Dec 20, 2018)

Rowethren said:


> I think there must be something wrong with me...
> 
> Get this...
> 
> ...



Hmmm.  Take 2 aspirin and if you still feel this way tomorrow, schedule a visit with your doctor.  



bcowen said:


> Hmmmm.   I have Melz, Fotons and Reflektors -- I'll see if it matches up to any of them when it arrives. Seems odd that Amperex would have been OEM'ing Soviet tubes back then with the cold war and all, but money usually trumps politics.



It would be a much shorter list if you just stated which tubes you didn't have.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Rowethren

As long as rubber gloves and lube aren't required I am good with it...


----------



## cebuboy

ilikepooters said:


> Looks like a relabelled russian tube, the plastic tabs that press against the inside of the glass envelope look the same as on the MELZ tubes.



Looks more like a ‘60s Foton


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Not great pictures on this listing but could be a NEVZ:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Pcs-6...h=item3f909fc8d9:g:uqcAAOSwY5ZbeSBc:rk:9:pf:0

Most 6N8S NEVZ came without the supports pressed up against the glass, this one however, has them.


----------



## ilikepooters (Dec 24, 2018)

Might snag some more 6N1P's

Found some from Anod and Orel factories that i've never heard of before.

*EDIT* Ordered. Also..


Ordered some of the rare NEVZ brown base 6N8S:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-6N8S...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

There's one pair left unless you want to pay more for a quad.

Also ordered standard NEVZ 6N8S made in '68

Should have a fun January


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## cebuboy

ilikepooters said:


> Not great pictures on this listing but could be a NEVZ:
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Pcs-6...h=item3f909fc8d9:g:uqcAAOSwY5ZbeSBc:rk:9:pf:0
> 
> Most 6N8S NEVZ came without the supports pressed up against the glass, this one however, has them.


Yup the “pentagon” definitely is a NEVZ. Not too many of them around with the support up top.


----------



## bboris77

Has anyone tried the Electro-Harmonix Gold pin 6sn7 tube? I had a great experience with their gold pin 6922 tubes with Valhalla 2. These are new production tubes and they are twice as expensive as the new production Tung-Sol tubes. I would love to know whether they are worth the price difference.


----------



## ilikepooters (Dec 25, 2018)

EH tubes are made with the old Reflektor tooling, so i'd save a few quid and source some NOS Reflektor 6N8S. I seem to remember liking the Reflektor 6N23P over the EH6922, the EH seemed a tad harsh for me. Apart from ShuGuang CV181-Z i'm not keen on new production tubes.


On another note i've just bought a genuine MELZ 1578, black plates with holes in, seller even has the original paper 1578 certificate, smells legit. Hope it doesn't crackle like hell link my other 2 MELZ, tried a resolder but no good.


----------



## Scrith

I’m seeing an interesting tube on eBay:  Mullard ECC32/CV181.  It’s unusual looking, expensive, and comes with a warning:  “These will drive the crap out of your preamp and/or amplifier so make sure that your power supply/transformer is beefy enough to handle it.”  So, can a Lyr 3 handle this tube?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 25, 2018)

Be careful.  A true CV-181 draws more heater current than 6SN7, so make sure that your HP amp can accommodate the additional current needs.  CV-181s can damage an amp not specifically designed for CV-181 tubes if it does not have the current headroom.  I think this has been posed of Schiit previously re: Lyr 3 and I believe the answer was no, but you may want to ping their support dept. to make sure.

BTW -- PSvane and Shuyuang CV-181 are not really CV-181s.  They are electrically equiv. to 6SN7, so don't let that confuse you into thinking all CV-181s are compatible.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 25, 2018)

bcowen said:


> What @Ripper2860 said.
> 
> A 6SN7 pulls 600 milliamps of heater current, and the ECC32/CV181 pulls almost a full amp (.95 mA's). Pretty significant difference.



Did you mean 950 mAs for CV181??  (.6A vs .95A or 600 mA vs 950 mA)


----------



## ilikepooters (Dec 26, 2018)

Jason from Schiit gave a very vague response when i asked about rolling ECC32's, i asked specifically about heater current and got a generic response along the lines of 6SN7 are the only supported tube. (we've rolled a significant amount of others in this thread)

I'd imagine the transformers in Lyr 3 are built with a little headroom, might be able to roll ECC32's for a few hours at a time but i wouldn't recommend 24/7 usage. I rolled E80CC's in Lyr 1 without any ill effects and they draw 0.6A each

Roll at your own risk 

Might even be able to DIY a socket saver so you can run the heaters separately from a Variac.


----------



## m17xr2b

A little headroom yes but 50%+ extra... is doubtful. ECC33 on the other hard requires 0.4A of current and is a mighty fine valve.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!!  For the times when FrankenDapter just isn't quite enough.



How are they sounding? Or are ya still buning 'em in?


----------



## ProfFalkin (Dec 26, 2018)

ilikepooters said:


> Jason from Schiit gave a very vague response when i asked about rolling ECC32's, i asked specifically about heater current and got a generic response along the lines of 6SN7 are the only supported tube. (we've rolled a significant amount of others in this thread)


What did you expect?  

If he says "oh, sure, an out-of-spec tube like that is fine to use with the Lyr" and then you come back to HF and report that it's safe, and then amps start popping like balloons at a 10 year olds birthday party, Jason is completely screwed.  

As you said, roll at your own risk.


----------



## Ripper2860

ilikepooters said:


> I rolled E80CC's in Lyr 1 without any ill effects and they draw 0.6A each



.6A the same as the 6SN7, so I would imagine they would be A-OK.


bcowen said:


> ROFL!!!  For the times when FrankenDapter just isn't quite enough.



Hmmmmm…   I wonder if dual frankentubes will sound 2x as good?


----------



## ilikepooters (Dec 27, 2018)

Ripper2860 said:


> .6A the same as the 6SN7, so I would imagine they would be A-OK.




Lyr 1 was spec'd for 2 x ECC88 / 6DJ8 family which only draw 0.365Ah per tube, so 2 x E80CC was nearly double the filament current. I must have burned in the E80CC's for a week straight without any magic smoke.

When i have some spare cash laying around i might try ECC32 in Lyr 3, knowing it voids warranty the spare cash will be incase i get magic smoke so i can replace 


On another note, '78 Voskhod 6N1P-EV is burned in and sounds really good much like the 6N1P-VI NEVZ, Voskhod has maybe a touch better imaging and the NEVZ is a touch more resolving of the finest details.


----------



## Ripper2860

Ooops.  I had Lyr 3 w/ 6SN7 on the mind.  I stand corrected.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Gentleman Jack to be more specific...


----------



## ProfFalkin

Jack Daniels is nasty.   Real tube rollers drink Scotch.    Oban Distillers Edition for me please.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Jack Daniels is to Whisky what GE is to tubes


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

hey guys, long time since I checked in.  Settled on the Northern Electric this past month and it's really opened up to what I now consider my favorite tube.  The WH ring getter started to sound disjointed after many hours.  The Bass flabby and out of sync slightly with the highs.  Weird. ... but the D getter I'm still liking a lot.

*Question*:  I'm looking at a DAC that puts out 3V RMS instead of the usual 2.  Will Lyr 3 accept this happily?  Anyone know off hand so I don't have to email Schiit?  Their website doesn't specify input voltage range.


----------



## funch

Without reading thru 189 pages (I'm lazy), can a 6SL7 be used in the Lyr?


----------



## earnmyturns

buonassi said:


> I'm looking at a DAC that puts out 3V RMS instead of the usual 2. Will Lyr 3 accept this happily? Anyone know off hand so I don't have to email Schiit?


Even 2V RMS (what for instance my Metrum Onyx puts out) is higher than I like for my headamps, including the Lyr 3, in that if forces me to keep the amp volume far from the middle of the range. I use one of these to lower DAC output to a more reasonable level. A Schiit SYS would do that too, and would be cheaper, but the Tisbury has two outputs, which is ideal for my setup.


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## ilikepooters (Dec 29, 2018)

funch said:


> Without reading thru 189 pages (I'm lazy), can a 6SL7 be used in the Lyr?



It'll work for sure, shares the same pin-out and only half the heater current.

BUT

6SL7 has more than 4 times the plate resistance, 3.5 times the mμ (gain), and needs a 3x smaller cathode resistor.

Can squint your eyes a bit at the specs but doesn't help much, will either sound amazing or total junk.

But we would have never gotten milk from cows unless someone took a look at the udders and thought "Hey, i'm gonna drink whatever comes out of that"


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## funch

Thanks. That helps. Reminds me of the first guy to eat an egg. He told his friend "See that chicken? Next thing that comes out of its butt; I'm gonna eat it!"


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

earnmyturns said:


> Even 2V RMS (what for instance my Metrum Onyx puts out) is higher than I like for my headamps, including the Lyr 3, in that if forces me to keep the amp volume far from the middle of the range. I use one of these to lower DAC output to a more reasonable level. A Schiit SYS would do that too, and would be cheaper, but the Tisbury has two outputs, which is ideal for my setup.


Brilliant!  Its like a more affordable Decware.  http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZSB.html
I may get one of these Tisbury.  Do you find it completely transparent?


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> Owww!!!
> 
> You guys obviously need to spend some time in Kentucky where the men are men...and so are the women.
> 
> (ducking now....go Tarheels).



I'm in Edinburgh at the moment, where the men are men, and the sheep are scared...  I had a few drams over the last several days that rival the finest from TN and KY.  But hey, why choose... there's enough for everyone.

(Dives into Foxhole with Bill - Go Tigers!!  Sent Notre Dame straight home)


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> Time to lay off the Jack Daniels.



Upgrade to_ Maker's Mark bourbon. _


----------



## ScubaMan2017

bcowen said:


> I definitely liked the milk thing better.


How about a an artichoke?


----------



## buonassi

hey @earnmyturns - based on a quick search, it seems that the gain in decibels when feeding my amp 3 vs 2 volts is 3.52 dB.  Not a huge volume difference.  In fact, I think I can digitally attenuate by up to 24 db (6 db stripped per padded bit) before the linear range of my DAC (20 bits) starts to lose resolution with 16 bit source files. Of course hires source files are a different story.  Even then, software dither-based volume control can tame 6 dbs easily.  I have such a feature with Audirvana+

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-gainloss.htm
does this link hold water?  Is the logic sound-- that 2 to 3 volts will be a 3.5db gain?  

I still may buy the Tinsbury because I've wanted to be able to switch 2 source DACs with 2 headamps without cable swapping.  That alone is awesome, but if the attenuation circuit can help me achieve a better dynamic range on my amps - even better!


----------



## Mr Trev

ScubaMan2017 said:


> Upgrade to_ Maker's Mark bourbon. _



Bourbon… pffft! (and you call yourself Canadian)


----------



## Ripper2860

Cherry flavored MD 20/20 FTW!!!!


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## earnmyturns (Dec 30, 2018)

buonassi said:


> hey @earnmyturns - based on a quick search, it seems that the gain in decibels when feeding my amp 3 vs 2 volts is 3.52 dB.  Not a huge volume difference.  In fact, I think I can digitally attenuate by up to 24 db (6 db stripped per padded bit) before the linear range of my DAC (20 bits) starts to lose resolution with 16 bit source files. Of course hires source files are a different story.  Even then, software dither-based volume control can tame 6 dbs easily.  I have such a feature with Audirvana+
> 
> http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-gainloss.htm
> does this link hold water?  Is the logic sound-- that 2 to 3 volts will be a 3.5db gain?
> ...


I use the Tisbury -10dB preset to feed the Lyr 3 from my Metrum Onyx DAC (2V RMS). Allows me to keep the Lyr 3 volume knob between 10am and 1pm. As far as I can tell, the Tisbury is pretty transparent.


----------



## kiwivda (Jan 2, 2019)

Hey guys first time writing here and starting to roll on my Lyr3, but I was wondering, I have these tubes in stock from various other friends of mine and myself, which ones would fit the best?

BRIMAR 6SN7 GT made in 1959 in smoke version
SYLVANIA 5692 WGT with military spec, double ring top getter and brown socket
SYLVANIA 6SN7GTB long "t" black plate, getter on top, chrome plate and PHILCO writing
WESTINGHOUSE 6SN7GT
Shuguang 6SN7-SE GLOBE Shuguang Treasure Series  (very curious on this one with round bulb)
Electro Harmonix 6H30PI NOS EH Double Triode which I do not know if it will fit without blowing all away
Psvane CV181-T-MII MarkII Series 6SN7

where do I start and which one should I avoid?


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jan 1, 2019)

kiwivda said:


> Hey guys first time writing here and starting to roll on my Lyr3, but I was wondering, I have these tubes in stock from various other friends of mine and myself, which ones would fit the best?
> 
> BRIMAR 6SN7 GT made in 1959 in smoke version
> SYLVANIA 5692 WGT with military spec, double ring top getter and brown socket
> ...


Fit best how?   Sonically?  Physically?  Those are all very nice tubes.

They should all be compatible.  I don't know if the round globe will physically fit, but you can try it.


----------



## kiwivda

ProfFalkin said:


> Fit best how?   Sonically?  Physically?  Those are all very nice tubes.
> 
> They should all be compatible.  I don't know if the round globe will physically fit, but you can try it.



Let's say first sonically (if you know some of them) and then also physically meaning not to fry everything


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

kiwivda said:


> Let's say first sonically (if you know some of them) and then also physically meaning not to fry everything


It's incredibly hard to answer that question, because I don't know what headphones, DAC, or musical preferences you have.

Just try them, see which one you like.


----------



## kiwivda

Ok except for the 9 pin one  I'll give each one of them a try. Sonically I prefer warm sound with lively sensation, but I do not mind even a bit of detail on the highs.


----------



## ilikepooters

kiwivda said:


> Ok except for the 9 pin one  I'll give each one of them a try. Sonically I prefer warm sound with lively sensation, but I do not mind even a bit of detail on the highs.



Brimar


----------



## FLTWS (Jan 3, 2019)

Using a tube lifter with the Psvane CV181-T-MII  Series 6SN7 and the Treasure Globe is the way I roll them both. They are just too fat and if the socket is slightly of center with the case opening or not perfectly flush with the top plate the glass may make contact with the metal opening possibly scoring it when inserting/removing. At these prices I baby them. ln my experience most tubes of standard, uniform diameter glass type install pretty easily straight in but I crushed a tube in my hand many years ago trying to pull one straight out. Since then I gently rock/roll every tube when I pull them. The straight sided tubes can be inserted and removed easily without a lifter (especially if you use those cheap, disposable exam gloves - you don't even have to put them on, just wrap around the tube and they grip tenaciously) but I find using a lifter gets heat further away from the chassis and both tube and chassis seem cooler when running.

Which tube depends on what type of sound profile you prefer. I'd save the CV181 and Treasure Globe for last. I find, especially with the T-Globe, a great sound for my preferences. A very few others punch harder and louder at the bottom of the frequency range but the rest of the range is much to my liking.


----------



## kiwivda (Jan 2, 2019)

FLTWS said:


> ...but the rest of the range is much to my liking.


Thank you so much for the advice. Is this one a tube lifter?


----------



## Ripper2860

I don't think the referenced link is actually what you are wanting.  Here's what I have and it has been recommended by several here ...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Octal-EL...306810?hash=item41f612e1ba:g:jQAAAOSwgVJcEMMQ


----------



## Scrith (Jan 9, 2019)

Question:  what, exactly, is a Frankentube?

Tube Rolling Update (a busy holiday break, but it was nice to roll at home rather than at work, which is where my Lyr3 is usually located)::
- Mullard ECC32 - This is #1 for me right now, although it is a fairly minor improvement (a bit more impact in mids and highs, similar bass strength maybe just a hair more detail) over my Mullard ECC33 which was bumped to #2 after I heard the ECC32.  Requires a socket saver (or something to lift it up a bit) because the base is a bit too big for the opening on the Lyr3.
- Mullard ECC33 - the champion has been dethroned by the ECC32 version, but it is still an amazing tube.
- Brimar/Elpico ECC32 - sound is fantasic, just a notch below the Mullard tubes.
- Brimar CV1988 brown base - outstanding!  The ECC32 version seems just a bit nicer (a bit warmer I guess).
- TungSol black glass round plates - fantastic tube, just missing a bit of warmth vs. the English tubes above.
- Foton (Russian) 6H8C (1952) - not bad at all, I was a bit surprised this was keeping up reasonably well with some of the exotic tubes.
- CBS/Hytron 5692 - amazed me when I first heard it, and still sounds the best of my 5692s, but it has been surpassed by some warmer tubes and the TungSol above.
- RCA 5692 red base - the 5692s are all wonderful, and this one is near the top.
- Nevz (Russian) 6N1P-VI - excellent surprise, and incredibly cheap (requires an adapter).
- Raytheon JAN-CRP, US Navy logo, 2-hole plates - another great tube, just a notch below the 5692s above.
- Telefunken ECC82 & 12AX7 - excellent, warm but not too warm, bass might be a bit reduced vs. some of the top tubes.  The 12AX7 made a small clicking sound after about 10 minutes and stopped working (I didn't try to re-seat it and make another attempt due to concern about the Lyr3, which is fine, thankfully).  Requires an adapter.
- Sylvania 6SN7GT 1955-April, tall, chrome top, green label - better than expected, not much to say other than its a bit less warm than the British tubes.
- Sylvania 6SN7WGT JAN-CHS, chrome top - disappointing tube...mine just seemed a bit weak (bass and treble).  I'm hoping to get a deal on another because I think mine is just a bit weak for whatever reason.

I think I have enough tubes at this point (well, a couple of cheap 7N7s are on the way) so I'm going to focus on comparisions and stop worrying about getting new tubes for now.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

kiwivda said:


> Thank you so much for the advice. Is this one a tube lifter?





Ripper2860 said:


> I don't think the referenced link is actually what you are wanting.  Here's what I have and it has been recommended by several here ...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Octal-EL...306810?hash=item41f612e1ba:g:jQAAAOSwgVJcEMMQ



Ripper is correct, that is the "lifter" I use, seems to be well made and if I peak inside my LYR3 with its tube removed, the socket looks just like the same white plastic (ceramic?) design.
Keep in mind it's a "lifter" / "socket saver" not a "converter" for using with different tube types with different pin out designations other than 6SN7 types.


----------



## ilikepooters

I better start the hunt for an ECC33, just waiting for payment on my Marconi B65 so i can buy more stuff.


----------



## Scrith

ilikepooters said:


> I better start the hunt for an ECC33, just waiting for payment on my Marconi B65 so i can buy more stuff.



Ooh, I want a Marconi B65 (doh, didn't I just say I have enough tubes?).  My list also has an Osram B65 w/ metal base, a Swedish 33S30, and a Telefunken 6SN7, in case anyone has one of those for sale!

After those, I'm done.  Really.


----------



## ilikepooters

Scrith said:


> Ooh, I want a Marconi B65 (doh, didn't I just say I have enough tubes?).  My list also has an Osram B65 w/ metal base, a Swedish 33S30, and a Telefunken 6SN7, in case anyone has one of those for sale!
> 
> After those, I'm done.  Really.



Marconi / Osram (known collectively as MOV) are one and the same really. There were some 33S30's on ebay but were insane prices.

I don't think Telefunken made a 6SN7, there were some east german 6SN7's branded RFT, though.


----------



## kiwivda

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't think the referenced link is actually what you are wanting.  Here's what I have and it has been recommended by several here ...
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Octal-EL...306810?hash=item41f612e1ba:g:jQAAAOSwgVJcEMMQ



Yup! thanks just bought. 



Scrith said:


> Question:  what, exactly, is a Frankentube?
> 
> Tube Rolling Update (a busy holiday break, but it was nice to roll at home rather than at work, which is where my Lyr3 is usually located)::
> - Mullard ECC32 - yes, I was crazy and put one of these in my Lyr3 despite some conerns about the output being a bit too strong, but so far it has been fine in a few 1-3 hour sessions.  This is #1 for me right now, although it is a fairly minor improvement (a bit more impact in mids and highs, similar bass strength maybe just a hair more detail) over my Mullard ECC33 which was bumped to #2 after I heard the ECC32.  Requires a socket saver (or something to lift it up a bit) because the base is a bit too big for the opening on the Lyr3.
> ...



Well what to say, really precious!




FLTWS said:


> Ripper is correct, that is the "lifter" I use, seems to be well made and if I peak inside my LYR3 with its tube removed, the socket looks just like the same white plastic (ceramic?) design.
> Keep in mind it's a "lifter" / "socket saver" not a "converter" for using with different tube types with different pin out designations other than 6SN7 types.



Received!


----------



## m17xr2b

ilikepooters said:


> I don't think Telefunken made a 6SN7, there were some east german 6SN7's branded RFT, though.


Telefunken didn't make 6SN7 but they did rebrand, russian tubes are frequent on ebay and they rebranded the 33S30 as a 6SN7WGTA


----------



## earnmyturns

ProfFalkin said:


> Fit best how?   Sonically?  Physically?  Those are all very nice tubes.
> 
> They should all be compatible.  I don't know if the round globe will physically fit, but you can try it.


The Shuguang 6SN7-SE GLOBE Shuguang Treasure Series is AKA the Psvane 6SN7-SE. My favorite tube (of a few I've used, including Ken Rad VT2131, Sylvania 2-hole Bad Boy) both on the Lyr 3 and on the Apex Peak. No problem with getting it to sit fully in the Lyr 3 socket.


----------



## ilikepooters (Jan 3, 2019)

Proper MELZ 1578 is living up to the hype...















1969 vintage, was a bit noisy when first rolled in, little bit of hum in the left channel but sorted it out by reflowing the solder in the pins.

I think it has already been used even though the seller states NOS, tests at 2500/2600 micromohs when tested as a 6SN7, maybe russian tubes test lower than 6SN7 i'm no expert.


Sounds fantastic right off the bat.

Soundstage is as wide as a Brimar and really deep, supreme separation of instruments, best i've heard yet, bass maybe a smidgen bloaty/boomy, definitely not dry, fantastic mids, no recess or dryness, treble a tad laid back but detailed, lacks a little extension in the treble.

Definite toe tapper, really engaging and non-fatiguing.

I'd place this tube above a Brimar 6SN7, above the Marconi B65, and it completely trounces the MELZ non hole plate version from the '50's.


My new favourite tube, now to find back-ups.


----------



## m17xr2b (Jan 3, 2019)

Interesting, might be different amps but I find the MELZ tier 2, just under the greats, like 6SN7W, bad boys, TSRP, Brimar 13D2,ECC32/33,B65. I've burned it for a bit, my only on spec tested 6SN7. Out of 30 other tubes even NOS they rarely test balanced and just on spec.
A cheaper soundstage greatness tube is the Sylvania VT99 T plates.


----------



## Rowethren

ilikepooters said:


> Proper MELZ 1578 is living up to the hype...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And importantly they look pretty as well


----------



## ilikepooters

NEVZ 6N8S brown base turned up, rolled in and had a quick listen and sounds a little un-remarkable so far, maybe needs a bit of burn in time. Instantly reminds me of an RCA red base 5692 sonically.

I'll report back once it's burned in.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## buonassi

earnmyturns said:


> The Shuguang 6SN7-SE GLOBE Shuguang Treasure Series is AKA the Psvane 6SN7-SE. My favorite tube (of a few I've used, including Ken Rad VT2131, Sylvania 2-hole Bad Boy) both on the Lyr 3 and on the Apex Peak. No problem with getting it to sit fully in the Lyr 3 socket.


is it your most expensive tube?  That thing costs 3/4ths  what a new Lyr costs.


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## earnmyturns (Jan 6, 2019)

buonassi said:


> is it your most expensive tube?  That thing costs 3/4ths  what a new Lyr costs.


$200. Lyr costs $499. So, 2/5ths, not 3/4ths. If it makes you feel better, I'm now using the globe on a rather more expensive amp, Apex Peak+Volcano (out of production, bought used), so tube/amp ratio is even lower. The Lyr has a nice but less expensive Sylvania 2-hole Bad Boy.


----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> ROFL!!!  For the times when FrankenDapter just isn't quite enough.



Might be worth a punt with the adaptor: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WESTINGH...h=item33fc937075:g:xAcAAOSwowtbmVyE:rk:2:pf:0


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Then these would probably be out of the question.


Installments of $144 makes it doable... hmmmm.....


----------



## FLTWS

Zachik said:


> Installments of $144 makes it doable... hmmmm.....



I agree, just do it!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Scrith

A quick update from my tube-rolling adventures...
- I finally received a tube from Russia, a Melz 6N8S with a metal base, holed anodes, and dual triodes.  This tube is surprisingly good!  I'd put it in the same league as 3- and 2-hole Bad Boys, and possibly the TungSol round plates tube (which it is quite similar to).  I still prefer the English tubes (especially the Mullard ECC32), but this thing is quite good.


----------



## Scrith (Jan 8, 2019)

I'm comparing my other Russian 6N8S, a Foton with a black base from 1952, and I'm noticing the Foton has a dropoff in volume in the left channel at around 10 o'clock on the volume knob when on High Gain.  I switched the Lyr3 to Low Gain (which requires the volume to be around 12 o'clock) and the problem was less obvious, but still there.  So I'm curious if there is something different about these tubes that would cause that to happen?
it sounds quite nice, by the way, just a slight notch below the Melz w/ metal base.


----------



## kiwivda

But when you roll the tubes, do you wait for them to cool down before swapping or do you use one once at a time for a while and then swap?


----------



## Scrith

kiwivda said:


> But when you roll the tubes, do you wait for them to cool down before swapping or do you use one once at a time for a while and then swap?



Yes, when I decide to switch tubes I turn the Lyr 3 off, unplug it, then wait for the tube to cool (I use the back of my pinky, which is sensitive to heat, to check it...yes I wipe the glass off with a cloth after removing it, and I use a cloth while inserting it).

I've really only had one unusual event while playing with the Lyr 3:  one of the Telefunken ECC82 tubes (which requires an adapter I've used with other tubes) suddenly stopped working about one minute after I started listening to it.  I immediately removed it and haven't used it since.  This happened about 2 weeks ago, and I've used the Lyr 3 without any problems since then (I haven't tried using that tube again, though).


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Scrith (Jan 8, 2019)

Ugh, I think that Foton tube did something, hopefully just oxidation, because now I'm hearing this problem with several tubes.  Some more details...at around 10 o'clock on the volume knob (for both low gain and high gain) the right channel suddenly becomes 10db or so higher in volume than the left channel...if I keep going on the volume knob the problem is slowly reduced (and gone at around 12 o'clock).  I tried flipping the channels in software and the problem didn't go away (nor did swapping the left/right cables on my AFCs), so it seems like the problem is with the amp.

So, if it is oxidation that somehow ended up getting stuck (or falling down into) the Lyr 3's socket, how should I clean it?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

kiwivda said:


> But when you roll the tubes, do you wait for them to cool down before swapping or do you use one once at a time for a while and then swap?



I power off and wait for the filament glow to vanish and then get my asbestos fingers in there and pull the tube out.


----------



## Rowethren

ilikepooters said:


> I power off and wait for the filament glow to vanish and then get my asbestos fingers in there and pull the tube out.



I work in the asbestos industry so all I can say is I hope your fingers are properly encapsulated and you wear a P3 filtered respirator when using your fingers...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Rowethren

bcowen said:


> This is the minimum level of personal protective equipment (PPE) required for changing a tube in the Lyr 3.  I just assumed everybody knew this?



Haha, a bit extreme you only need one of these:


----------



## Scrith

Update on troublesome Lyr 3 and some tube observations:
The volume problem I'm having with the Lyr 3 has resulted in a warranty claim (at Schiit's request).  I'm not sure whether or not that means no Lyr 3 for awhile or not (maybe they'l just send a replacement?  We'll see).  However, on Low Gain I usally run with the volume a bit higher, so the problem isn't affecting me much at the moment (I definitely need it to be fixed, though).

By the way, does anyone have any strong preference for one Gain setting over another in the Lyr 3?  I've always run with High Gain, but Low Gain is sounding quite nice to me today...a bit more comfortable sounding, if that makes sense.

OK, one more new tube arrived:  A Marconi B65 (with faded text on it that says Made in Holland).  Very nice, almost sweet compared to the British tubes I've been enjoying lately.  I think I prefer the warmth of the Mullard tubes a bit more, but this is one very nice sounding tube.  Clean, detailed, bass is great...just a fantastic tube.

I also went back to listen to a few of my favorites after quite a bit of time with foreign tubes this week:
- TungSol black glass & round plates:  just a great tube, incredibly detailed.
- Sylvania Bad Boy w/ 3 holes:  not as good as I remember.  Kind of dull, I guess, compared to the exciting tubes I've been listerning to lately.  Mine is from Brent Jessee so I assume it is a good one.  Maybe that tube just had a bad day.  
- Sylvania 6SN7WGT w/ metal base:  very nice, just a bit below the TungSol with round plates (not quite as much energy, and the bass seems just a bit fuzzy)
- TungSol "mouse ears" tube:  very nice tube, just a bit less exciting than some of my other tubes (also from Brent Jessee).
- new TungSol 6SN7GTB (the one that came with the Lyr 3):  boring!

And a high-level observation:  these tubes aren't that all that dramatically different.  I definitely have moved towards carefully listening to sections in specific familiar tracks to tell them apart, rathern than just general music listening.  I had started out rating them on a scale of 1 to 10, but all of them ended up with a score of at least 7.  So I'm going to revise my scoring system a bit.


----------



## Wes S (Jan 10, 2019)

Scrith said:


> Update on troublesome Lyr 3 and some tube observations:
> The volume problem I'm having with the Lyr 3 has resulted in a warranty claim (at Schiit's request).  I'm not sure whether or not that means no Lyr 3 for awhile or not (maybe they'l just send a replacement?  We'll see).  However, on Low Gain I usally run with the volume a bit higher, so the problem isn't affecting me much at the moment (I definitely need it to be fixed, though).
> 
> By the way, does anyone have any strong preference for one Gain setting over another in the Lyr 3?  I've always run with High Gain, but Low Gain is sounding quite nice to me today...a bit more comfortable sounding, if that makes sense.
> ...


First time I have read about the 3 hole bottom getter Sylvania sounding dull.  Interesting as always, how we hear things differently.  I tried a Tung Sol round plate and it was a bit to cold in the mids for me.  Does your Tung Sol round plate have copper grid post or steel?  Mine had steel grid post.


----------



## LustLoveLuck

Tidal > Bifrost multibit gen 2 > Loki > Lyr 3 > Aeon Flow Closed. I really like the Lyr 3 compared to the Asgard 2 i had. I've been enjoying the 6sn7 TS from Schiit and have been listening to music non stop. The clarity and soundstage is awesome from this tube. It should be just about fully burned in over 50 hours. Ive been enjoying my AFC without any filters ( i used to use the black foam, don't have white filters). I have not used the Russian 6sn8 yet. I just bought a generic Westinghouse tube and 2 holy sylvania bad boy. I hope the sylvania bad boy sounds as good or better than the schiit TS. with the Schiit TS I have noticed that vocals are slightly grainy and ever so slightly sibilant, however the grain in vocals is less than the first couple of days the TS has been in the lyr (recording matters). Just started burning in the bad boy, does the bass quantity/quality change as it burns in?


----------



## MikeW

Im thinking of trying a LYR3 soon, currently have bifrost multibit and jotunheim with HD650. What are the favorite HD650 tube pairings for LYR3?


----------



## Freeflap

LustLoveLuck said:


> Tidal > Bifrost multibit gen 2 > Loki > Lyr 3 > Aeon Flow Closed. I really like the Lyr 3 compared to the Asgard 2 i had. I've been enjoying the 6sn7 TS from Schiit and have been listening to music non stop. The clarity and soundstage is awesome from this tube. It should be just about fully burned in over 50 hours. Ive been enjoying my AFC without any filters ( i used to use the black foam, don't have white filters). I have not used the Russian 6sn8 yet. I just bought a generic Westinghouse tube and 2 holy sylvania bad boy. I hope the sylvania bad boy sounds as good or better than the schiit TS. with the Schiit TS I have noticed that vocals are slightly grainy and ever so slightly sibilant, however the grain in vocals is less than the first couple of days the TS has been in the lyr (recording matters). Just started burning in the bad boy, does the bass quantity/quality change as it burns in?



If you like the stock tungsol, you will love the other tubes recommended here: the 2 hole badboy, 7n7 frankentube, westinghouse dgetter, etc... Enjoy the ride! 
i am using laptop to lyr3 multibit to ether flow open. love the sound. currently using a westinghouse d getter. For reference, haven't been back to the stock tungsol in almost a year.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Scrith (Jan 11, 2019)

I do have a Brimar CV1988.    $38 from nova.76 on eBay.  I highly recommend that seller because 1) he auctions most tubes with a low starting price (no comment on how one can exploit this), and 2) his tubes are some of the best I own.  I got a TungSol round plate from him a few days ago for $34, although the test numbers weren't all that great it should work reasonably well, hopefully.  My best deal from him was a great-sounding National Union VT-231 w/ black glass for $1 (love those low minimum auctions!).

Now I need to find a deal on a Tesla or Mazda tube for my garage, maybe?


----------



## Freeflap

Scrith said:


> I do have a Brimar CV1988.    $38 from nova.76 on eBay.  I highly recommend that seller because 1) he auctions most tubes with a low starting price (no comment on how one can exploit this), and 2) his tubes are some of the best I own.  I got a TungSol round plate from him a few days ago for $34, although the test numbers weren't all that great it should work reasonably well, hopefully.  My best deal from him was a great-sounding National Union VT-231 w/ black glass for $1 (love those low minimum auctions!).
> 
> Now I need to find a deal on a Tesla or Mazda tube for my garage, maybe?



Yes, Ken b is a good seller. Lives near me actually. I bought my first brimar from him. 

he has a huge stash of tubes. does a great job sorting and testing them out. enjoy!


----------



## ilikepooters (Jan 15, 2019)

Rolled in one of the 6N1P Orel factory tubes...

I'm impressed! Slightly different flavour to NEVZ 6N1P-VI, this is a touch more warm and bass heavy, highs a little more laid back and the soundstage bigger.
Also seems a little more "tubey" in nature, more liquidity.

Probably a good match for a clinical, fast and bass light headphone.

Mine is '71 vintage and from this seller: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-x-6N1P-6DJ8-ECC88-7308-E88CC-6H1P-ORZEP-Orel-TUBE-1970s-NEW-BEST/183309809938?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Nice and cheap  If you already have the adaptor this tube is definitely worth a punt. Completely trounces any 5692 if you need a comparison money-wise.


----------



## blacksimon

This is basically my first post lads, be easy on me - I've coupled together my thoughts about the PSVANE CV181-TII tube. Note that my musical tastes revolve mostly around faster paced metal (sometimes melodic), modern and classic rap, as well as some classic rock. This is a decently wide spread of sounds, but maybe not as wide as the rest of you lads.


I picked this tube off taobao, as an upgrade to my cv181 treasure (psvane describes this as an improvement to the full range sound response with no loss in soundstage or flavor) - I've burned this in for at least 300 hours now

I can only really compare this to the treasure series CV181, since the only prior tube I had in here was the stock 6sn7.

First off, the tube construction feels just as solid as the treasure, the pins look about the same material and quality. the only real difference is that this tube actually fits into the lyr3 - the treasure required a socket saver, or a lot of forceful pushing coupled with hopes and dreams. 

Soundstage honestly feels a little more limited, by a small degree, only really noticeable with tracks with a wide echo, or recorded in a concert hall

the low end sounds much tighter and more responsive, particularly in sub-bass, while the upper end of bass response sounds just as good as the treasure

the mids sound a touch more pronounced than the treasure, if not on par - I'm still having difficulty comparing the two - they might be exactly the same for all i know

the highs sound much better, more crisp, more responsive, a tiny bit less forgiving - though running some tracks with background hiss through the PSvane does clear them up nicely compared to a SS source

So is this tube worth the $65?

I think so, since these are modern fabrication, dealing with new old stock isn't an issue. The QC from PSvane is good (I hear) and in my case, my tube was top notch - Though I'd look a little deeper into the topic if you're looking for matched pairs or something

From my research, the team that designed the original treasure series cv181 split off from the company and moved to psvane to work on this project, gradually improving it. If you want to support the makers of the original treasure, I guess buy this one, as the original company still owns the rights to produce the old treasure tube


anyway, here's a pic of it in the Lyr 







thanks for the read


----------



## FLTWS

I have a matched pair of these T II's sourced from Grant Fidelity, I'd say $65.00 is a great price if it's in good working condition.


----------



## buonassi (Jan 22, 2019)

I've really grown to love the Northern Electric 6SN7 - which looks identical to the TJ full music tubes.  It has a similar shape to the PSvane tubes and is a current production deal (or manufactured relatively recent).  I have a riser under it to display its full glory!

 

Wouldn't be surprised if it was made in the same factory.  It bests all of my NOS/used tubes (including the D getter) in coherency, resolution, and cleanliness.  It's got just a hint of low end grunt, and is relatively fast in the bass attack, with perfectly timed decay.  It's not the widest or most tubey sounding, but there is definitely some nice richness in the mids.  The treble is flawless.  simply pristine, with no grain or etch.  Nice and smooth balance overall - it's had the most amp time this past month and I can't seem to pull it out.

A tip to you lyr users I recently discovered:  I now use digital attenuation (18-24 dbs).  You'll note my volume in the pics - I find that the amp sounds its best about 3 oclock - which makes sense given the resistance of the volume pot.  But I have no idea how a higher volume may interact with the tube stage - maybe that's why I'm hearing a nice gain?  It really pushed my immersion factor up a notch!  you guys with 32 bit DACs who can dither and attenuate digitally - give it a try.  Heck, even a 24 bit DAC has enough room to dither and lower by over 40 dBs with zero loss of resolution (on 16 bit source content).  Dither is important to maintain linearity during quantization process - so don't skip it.  And your DAC should have a noise floor commensurate with your level of attenuation.

That's it, been a while since I posted and thought I'd check in.  Hope you guys are all well and enjoying the music!


----------



## kiwivda

Oh look we are in tune  testing the psvane TSeries Mark II CV181, to me sound veeeeery good. Clear, rich bass and very good separation.


----------



## quimbo

kiwivda said:


> Oh look we are in tune  testing the psvane TSeries Mark II CV181, to me sound veeeeery good. Clear, rich bass and very good separation.



Last week I talked myself out of getting one of these.  After seeing this post I just ordered one.


----------



## kiwivda

the Lyr or the tube?


----------



## quimbo

The tube.  Bought a Lyr 3 about a year ago, have picked up about 20 different tubes and was ready to stop searching


----------



## Scrith (Jan 28, 2019)

Update on my tube rolling (which was on hold for a couple of weeks):

- Mullard ECC33 is still my favorite.  Perfectly clear, wonderful detailed bass, and that warmth.
- Shuagang CV-181Z.  Not a bad tube, but not terribly exciting.  The bass seemed a bit dull and restrained.  The highs seems solid though.
- PSVane CV-181T Mark II.  A surprise after hearing people generally not voicing much enthusiasm for Chinese tubes...it sound great!  It's right up there with tubes like the Bad Boys and reminds me a bit of the glorified Tung Sol round plates / black glass tubes.  It just needs a little warmth like the British tubes.
- Tung Sol Round Plates w/ Black Glass - I managed to get a surprisingly cheap one on eBay (used of course, without particularly high measurements, but still above "ok", from a trusted seller I've bought quite a few tubes from), but was disappointed when I heard it.  Yes, it sounded quite good, but needed a bit more gain that other tubes (which leaves a bad initial impression, since quieter generally sounds worse than louder), however the game-changer is that it has a small amount of hiss/distortion in the left channel, making it a disappointment in my eyes.  Beware those used tubes with low measurements, I guess.
- Tung Sol Mouse Ears - Very nice.  This reminds me of other US-made tubes from this era.  Maybe just a notch below my good Tung Sol w/ Round Plates.  Another sub-$20 tube from eBay.
- Sylvania 2-hole Bad Boys (2) - another cheap pick-up from a trusted seller on eBay.  They sound great, similar to my other Bad Boys.  Not bad for $15 each.


----------



## kiwivda

Scrith said:


> Update on my tube rolling (which was on hold for a couple of weeks):
> 
> - Mullard ECC33 is still my favorite.  Perfectly clear, wonderful detailed bass, and that warmth.


Still looking for a Mullard ECC33 but I can only find very expensive ones.

By now cable management has finished and I'm still in love with the Psvane CV 181 MKII


----------



## earnmyturns

Got a new Psvane UK-6SN7 for my Lyr. Even before burn-in, it does surprisingly well for harpsichord (a lovely new recording of Couperin works by Christophe Rousset). The Apex Peak with the Psvane 6SN7-SE still wins in presence/body, but the difference is not huge. These new Chinese tubes are giving the old guard (Bad Boys, Ken-Rad VT231) stiff competition.


----------



## FLTWS

earnmyturns said:


> Got a new Psvane UK-6SN7 for my Lyr. Even before burn-in, it does surprisingly well for harpsichord (a lovely new recording of Couperin works by Christophe Rousset). The Apex Peak with the Psvane 6SN7-SE still wins in presence/body, but the difference is not huge. These new Chinese tubes are giving the old guard (Bad Boys, Ken-Rad VT231) stiff competition.



I agree on the Psvanes, I started with UK-6SN7 in my LYR3, then acquired the TII, the Treasure Globe, and for good measure I've got a Sophia Electric in there presently.


----------



## ilikepooters (Jan 29, 2019)

Anyone tried the Canadian current production 6SN7? Northern Electric i think the brand is.


----------



## ProfFalkin

ilikepooters said:


> Anyone tried the Canadian current production 6SN7? Northern Electric i think the brand is.


I think those are actually made in China, the brand name was purchased years ago.   But no, I haven't tried them.


----------



## FLTWS

ilikepooters said:


> Anyone tried the Canadian current production 6SN7? Northern Electric i think the brand is.



Every time I checked they were out of stock. The Psvanes are all made in China but with some special qualifiers. 
Check out the Grant Fidelity website, which is where I got all mine and may be the only source for them

http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/


----------



## Zachik

FLTWS said:


> I agree on the Psvanes, I started with UK-6SN7 in my LYR3, then acquired the TII, the Treasure Globe, and for good measure I've got a Sophia Electric in there presently.


How would you rate them? Do you have a sound comparison? 
And lastly, if you had to choose 1 - which would it be?


----------



## FLTWS

I don't feel the differences are significant enough to lose sleep over. Let your wallet be your guide. If you got the money the Treasure Globe or Sophia, want to save some money UK 6SN7 or TII. I am not finding the wide variations from one to the next that I have experienced with the many NOS 6SN7's I have. I like them because they are so consistent sounding. They come with some warranty period as well. I'm set for the long haul with my tubes, I see no future purchase needs for this tube type

The Treasure Globe and Sophia are $200 a piece. I bought matched pairs of the UK-6SN7 and TII in GF Grade A, low noise / dual section matching at $200/pair and $300/pair respectively. Some of the NOS are just as expensive and these are new production so maybe less likely to die in a year or two.


----------



## Zachik

FLTWS said:


> I don't feel the differences are significant enough to lose sleep over. Let your wallet be your guide. If you got the money the Treasure Globe or Sophia, want to save some money UK 6SN7 or TII. I am not finding the wide variations from one to the next that I have experienced with the many NOS 6SN7's I have. I like them because they are so consistent sounding. They come with some warranty period as well. I'm set for the long haul with my tubes, I see no future purchase needs for this tube type
> 
> The Treasure Globe and Sophia are $200 a piece. I bought matched pairs of the UK-6SN7 and TII in GF Grade A, low noise / dual section matching at $200/pair and $300/pair respectively. Some of the NOS are just as expensive and these are new production so maybe less likely to die in a year or two.


Thanks!  Very useful, in case I decide to buy more 6SN7 tubes... (already got enough to last my and my son's life time)


----------



## FLTWS

Zachik said:


> Thanks!  Very useful, in case I decide to buy more 6SN7 tubes... (already got enough to last my and my son's life time)



LOL! I hear that.


----------



## buonassi

ilikepooters said:


> Anyone tried the Canadian current production 6SN7? Northern Electric i think the brand is.


     Post #2905. yep - it's quite good IMO


----------



## Odin412

ilikepooters said:


> Anyone tried the Canadian current production 6SN7? Northern Electric i think the brand is.



I have tried it with my Saga preamp. I think it's one of the best new-production tubes, although the Psvane is still my favorite.


----------



## earnmyturns

earnmyturns said:


> Got a new Psvane UK-6SN7 for my Lyr. Even before burn-in, it does surprisingly well for harpsichord (a lovely new recording of Couperin works by Christophe Rousset). The Apex Peak with the Psvane 6SN7-SE still wins in presence/body, but the difference is not huge. These new Chinese tubes are giving the old guard (Bad Boys, Ken-Rad VT231) stiff competition.


After 50h or so of burn-in, the combo

Metrum Ambre>Metrum Onyx>Lyr+Psvane UK-6SN7>Ether C Flow 1.1​
is killing it for small ensemble jazz and chamber music. Hard to pull myself away. There's something about a good NOS DAC with a good tube hybrid headamp that is hard to define but very engaging. A kind of instrument presence, materiality together with instrument separation that calls our attention to instrumental details and their relationships over time. Very satisfying.


----------



## Deaj

mourip said:


> Has anyone tried a 7N7 with loctal adapter? I am using these in my MicroZotl v2 and they sound much better to me than the other 6SN7 variants that I have tried, including a number of those mentioned above.
> 
> They are also inexpensive. The adapters are easily available on eBay.



I'm in the process of reading through this thread and haven't seen much posted about 7N7 tubes yet so I thought I'd chime in. 

First let me say that my experience with 7N7's has been in a Schiit Saga preamp where the differences from one tube to another can be quite subtle. 

Next thing: Regarding 7N7 to 6SN7 adapters - I picked one up from a Romanian seller on eBay for a very reasonable price and electrically it seems good to go (tested each pin to each socket - the pinout is correct and there are no pin-to-pin or socket-to-socket connections). I tested it in the Saga with a properly tested, strong RCA 7N7 and it worked as it should. This said, I began feeling some hesitation in continuing its use (I can find no way to open the adapter and I was having trouble feeling confident in the quality of work in assembly. In the meantime I found that Woo Audio makes a 7N7 to 6SN7 adapter. It's expensive at $40 plus shipping but, having been impressed with the sound of the RCA 7N7 in the Saga, I decided to purchase the Woo Audio adapter. Here's a link:

https://wooaudio.com/accessories/varioustubeadapters

I have a small collection of 6SN7's (a new production Russian made reissue Tungsol 6SN7GTB, a new production Russian made Electro-Harmonix 6SN7, a GE 6SN7GTB, several RCA 6SN7GTB's, a Sylvania tall bottle 6SN7GTA, and two RCA 7N7 local base - electrical equivalent of a RCA VT231 / 6SN7GT). I won't go into any comparisons from use in a Saga preamp as they may be of little value in a discussion about tube rolling in the Lyr 3 headphone amplifier. I will only say that the 7N7's are my favorite of the lot in the Saga.

It's reasonably fair to assume that the RCA 7N7's will be very similar the early 50's RCA 6SN7GT tubes (this is what I gather from what I've read on the topic to date). 

I am waiting to take delivery of a new Lyr 3 this coming week. I'll post an update once I've had an opportunity to listen to each of these tubes in the Lyr 3.


----------



## Wes S

Deaj said:


> I'm in the process of reading through this thread and haven't seen much posted about 7N7 tubes yet so I thought I'd chime in.
> 
> First let me say that my experience with 7N7's has been in a Schiit Saga preamp where the differences from one tube to another can be quite subtle.
> 
> ...


Look up Franken tube and you will find the 7n7 info, already in this thread.  Couple of guys on this thread love them, and i am sure will chime in soon.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Rowethren

bcowen said:


> If you like 7N7's, try the tall bottle Sylvania-made version with the Frankentube attributes. They are getting hard to find, but there's a pair on Ebay now:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NIB-GE-7...h=item41f8460eda:g:glIAAOSw7C5cO9RO:rk:7:pf:0



Hard to find because you bought them all?


----------



## Zachik

Rowethren said:


> Hard to find because you bought them all?


Nah - I bought a couple, too  
Bill didn't get them all (but I am sure he gave his best effort to!)


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## Deaj (Feb 3, 2019)

bcowen said:


> If you like 7N7's, try the tall bottle Sylvania-made version with the Frankentube attributes. They are getting hard to find, but there's a pair on Ebay now:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NIB-GE-7...h=item41f8460eda:g:glIAAOSw7C5cO9RO:rk:7:pf:0



Curiosity piqued - > frankentubes purchased.

Thanks for the link!  I read though a good bit of this thread last night and decided to start a search for a frankentube this morning. I picked up my phone to start looking after breakfast and saw your post in an email notification. Search over before it started

Thanks again bcowen! I'll post my thoughts on these tubes in the Lear 3 once I have a chance to listen. I'm most interested in how these compare to the Sylvania tall bottle 6SN7GTA and the RCA loctal 7N7, and curious as to how the RCA and GE 6SN7GTB's will sound in the Lyr 3 (in the Saga these tube were warmer than the other 6SN7 tubes I have on hand). Curious too haw the reissue Tungsol 6SN7 will sound in the Lyr 3. Of the tubes I currently own the tonality of this tube seems closest to passive mode in the Saga to my ears, while providing some difficult to describe pleasant presentation..


----------



## Zachik

Deaj said:


> I picked up my phone to start looking


huh?!
Did you start calling "HiFi Audio stores" from the yellow pages?? 

(For the Millennial kids here, yellow pages was all the rage before Google and Amazon... That was a printed phone book that people used to search for businesses and actually called their phone to ask questions...)


----------



## Deaj

Zachik said:


> huh?!
> Did you start calling "HiFi Audio stores" from the yellow pages??
> 
> (For the Millennial kids here, yellow pages was all the rage before Google and Amazon... That was a printed phone book that people used to search for businesses and actually called their phone to ask questions...)


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

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## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> No, no, no.  I'm not a hoarder.  That, and the competition has been mind-boggling from @Zachik and @Ripper2860 who ARE hoarders.



Denial is not a river in Egypt...


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## Scrith (Feb 6, 2019)

I'm listening to a Marconi B65 (with "Made in Holland" on the glass) this morning and it is sounding fantastic.  Here's a tip on getting tubes like this on eBay (that's where I found mine):  sometimes the seller doesn't bother putting "6SN7" in the description, so make sure you search for B65 and/or Marconi also (that's how I found the one I have, and it was a pretty good deal considering it seems to be an extremely rare tube).  Unfortunately quite a few sellers put "B65" in their description for tubes that aren't B65 tubes.


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## Zachik

bcowen said:


> No, no, no.  I'm not a hoarder.  That, and the competition has been mind-boggling from @Zachik and @Ripper2860 who ARE hoarders.


Bill, we already talked about it, and agreed we're collectors!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

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## Ripper2860

Whatever gets you through the night, Bill.


----------



## ilikepooters

Proper MELZ 1578 hole plates has passed the 200 hour mark and it's even more astonishing.

Has a touch of warmth / heft at the low end, not as tight as some of the tightest tubes, definitely not dry, very pleasing. - 10/10
Mids are quite rich, touch of liquidity. Not quite as lush as a Marconi B65 - 9/10
Treble still has that smooth layed back character, much like a British tube. Completely non-fatiguing but quick enough to be detailed, not as much decay as i would like but close. - 9/10

This tube really excels when it comes to imaging, just as wide as a Brimar with perfect height and depth, really 3d, Fantastic separation of instruments. 10/10


It's a very euphonic sounding tube and compares with some of the best i've heard, overall i'd give it 9.6/10. Very much worth acquiring if you can find a silent one or don't mind re-flowing the dodgy solder in the pins.


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## attmci (Feb 6, 2019)

Scrith said:


> I'm listening to a Marconi B65 (with "Made in Holland" on the glass) this morning and it is sounding fantastic.  Here's a tip on getting tubes like this on eBay (that's where I found mine):  sometimes the seller doesn't bother putting "6SN7" in the description, so make sure you search for B65 and/or Marconi also (that's how I found the one I have, and it was a pretty good deal considering it seems to be an extremely rare tube).  Unfortunately quite a few sellers put "B65" in their description for tubes that aren't B65 tubes.


This?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/B65-Marcon...779698?hash=item56b2ca2532:g:EgEAAOSwZXlbR513



https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## Scrith

What about these?  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Marconi-B6...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MARCONI-B6...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


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## m17xr2b

B65 needs to be made by MOV. Those are philips rebrands 6SN7.


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## Deaj (Feb 7, 2019)

bcowen said:


> If you like 7N7's, try the tall bottle Sylvania-made version with the Frankentube attributes. They are getting hard to find, but there's a pair on Ebay now:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NIB-GE-7...h=item41f8460eda:g:glIAAOSw7C5cO9RO:rk:7:pf:0



Ok - wow.  ....WOW!

There are too many new factors here for me to consider so I'll try to keep this as conservative as possible until I have some time to sort through everything. I received my Lyr 3 earlier today along with the pair of 'frankentubes' linked above (_I just added an EITR and I haven't done any meaningful comparison between it and the S/PDIF coax out from my PC. I noted some positive change, most notably in the lower frequencies, and left I left it at that. The Lyr 3 and the frankentubes are new and I don't have a lot of time listening with them yet._)

I installed a 'frankentube' using a 7N7-6SN7 adapter. Powered up the Lyr 3, give the tube 15 minutes to heat up. From the first 30 minutes listening time I can tell you that this amp is very much in line with my listening preferences. Very clear, great separation between instruments / vocal harmonies, and treble is so ....natural is the word that comes to mind.

For reference the signal chain is:  Window 10 PC / Foobar2000 /various tracks in FLAC -> EITR -> Mimby -> Saga (passive) -> Lyr 3 -> beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro -and- custom Grado build (mahogany cups w/ Symphones Magnum V8 drivers).

I dropped a '60 tall bottle Sylvania in the Saga, my current favorite for the Saga's buffer, just to get a first listen to the Saga's active buffer in front of the Lyr 3. I can't yet quantify the difference but I like what I'm hearing! It's been a good day for my ears.


----------



## Ripper2860

Congrats!!!    The Frankie is AWESOME!!!!


----------



## Deaj

Ripper2860 said:


> Congrats!!!    The Frankie is AWESOME!!!!



Thanks!  ...and agreed 

After a few hours of listening with the frankenstein I decided to pop a reissue Tungsol 6SN7 into the Lyr 3 and have a listen. It sounds damn good!  Again, I have no meaningful comparison to offer at this point - just my first impressions. If the Tungsol 6SN7 reissue were the only tube available for the Lyr 3 I'd still be jazzed about the amp.

I'm listening through a 250 ohm beyerdynamic DT250 headphone and it's sounding really good!  I have sleeping kids in both adjacent rooms to my music room so closed headphones are a must at night, and the DT250 is my only closed headphone. This headphone has been a favorite of mine for years. Generally speaking it doesn't do anything special. It just does everything right. Here, though, the bass is something to behold, especially with soul, Mowtown, and old school R&B.  Total toe-tapper!


----------



## Yviena

Just got my lyr 3, what's the consensus on the best sounding.tubes.to roll, i see psvane uk-6sn7 mentioned.a lot is it any good?


----------



## earnmyturns

Yviena said:


> Just got my lyr 3, what's the consensus on the best sounding.tubes.to roll, i see psvane uk-6sn7 mentioned.a lot is it any good?


It is very good, for me cleaner, more impactful bass than several NOS (new old stock) tubes I also own (including KenRad VT-231 1944, Sylvania Bad Boy two-hole 1951). Psvane 6SN7-SE is even better, but pricier. But I prefer a relatively neutral sound that goes well with my non-oversampling Metrum Onyx DAC and MrSpeakers Ether C Flow 1.1 headphones. I suspect that listeners/source materials that favor warmer renderings would put the NOS tubes higher in the ranking.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Yviena (Feb 9, 2019)

earnmyturns said:


> It is very good, for me cleaner, more impactful bass than several NOS (new old stock) tubes I also own (including KenRad VT-231 1944, Sylvania Bad Boy two-hole 1951). Psvane 6SN7-SE is even better, but pricier. But I prefer a relatively neutral sound that goes well with my non-oversampling Metrum Onyx DAC and MrSpeakers Ether C Flow 1.1 headphones. I suspect that listeners/source materials that favor warmer renderings would put the NOS tubes higher in the ranking.



Hmm i see is there a big difference in sound between the SE and UK variant, or is it a side upgrade?

 I ideally would want a tube that plays to  the strengths of my 2hz IIR filter modded soekris dac1541, and HD800.


----------



## attmci

Scrith said:


> What about these?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Marconi-B65-6SN7-/254008629469?hash=item3b241818dd:gUkAAOSwosdcA-n5&nma=true&si=Vf9W2xUZ057I6oLa8J154lXvqV4%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MARCONI-B65-6SN7-NEW-IN-BOX-BLACK-BASE-MADE-IN-HOLLAND-/332903480909?hash=item4d8297fe4d:g6gAAOSwUfVb-8G6&nma=true&si=Vf9W2xUZ057I6oLa8J154lXvqV4%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


Nice tubes.


----------



## Deaj

Yviena said:


> Just got my lyr 3, what's the consensus on the best sounding.tubes.to roll, i see psvane uk-6sn7 mentioned.a lot is it any good?



If you don't already have one the current production reissue Tungsol 6SN7 sounds very good. It's a great place to start.


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## earnmyturns (Feb 9, 2019)

Yviena said:


> Hmm i see is there a big difference in sound between the SE and UK variant, or is it a side upgrade?
> 
> I ideally would want a tube that plays to  the strengths of my 2hz IIR filter modded soekris dac1541, and HD800.


Not a big difference. I've not had the SE on the Lyr for a while, it's's been on my vintage Apex Peak amp, but my memory is that maybe the SE is just a bit faster and more balanced. But this is not a high confidence judgment since I'm not able to compare the two side-by-side.

I don't know the HD800. I have a dac1541 with standard filters, but it's at work so I haven't really tried to evaluate how it matches the Lyr I have at home. It would be a fun test for when I have the time.


----------



## earnmyturns

earnmyturns said:


> After 50h or so of burn-in, the combo
> 
> Metrum Ambre>Metrum Onyx>Lyr+Psvane UK-6SN7>Ether C Flow 1.1​
> is killing it for small ensemble jazz and chamber music. Hard to pull myself away. There's something about a good NOS DAC with a good tube hybrid headamp that is hard to define but very engaging. A kind of instrument presence, materiality together with instrument separation that calls our attention to instrumental details and their relationships over time. Very satisfying.


*Update*: This setup seems to be made for ECM, separating instruments with their timbral subtleties and individually different attack-decay characteristics, complementing the label's canonical house style of pinpoint instrument pickup and a slight reverb/crossfeed mix to create the sense of a clean, wide playing space. Listening to my two most recent ECM purchases -- Ralph Alessi's _Imaginary Friends_ and Tord Gustavsen's _Extended Circle_.


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## Yviena (Feb 12, 2019)

earnmyturns said:


> Not a big difference. I've not had the SE on the Lyr for a while, it's's been on my vintage Apex Peak amp, but my memory is that maybe the SE is just a bit faster and more balanced. But this is not a high confidence judgment since I'm not able to compare the two side-by-side.
> 
> I don't know the HD800. I have a dac1541 with standard filters, but it's at work so I haven't really tried to evaluate how it matches the Lyr I have at home. It would be a fun test for when I have the time.



Well for one i find that removing the 2hz iir filter on the dac1541 makes it more dynamic, and i hear transients/soundstage better, coupled with software oversampling via HQplayer poly-sinc-xtr/closed-form-M that even further increases SQ.

I would say with the filter mod/software oversampling it beats the gumby that i auditioned once, soren/soekris weakness has always been software in my opinion.

Other people on diyaudio filter brewing thread reported the same improvements by removing the 2hz dc blocking filter.


----------



## earnmyturns

Yviena said:


> Well for one i find that removing the 2hz iir filter on the dac1541 makes it more dynamic, and i hear transients/soundstage better, coupled with software oversampling via HQplayer poly-sinc-xtr/closed-form-M that even further increases SQ.
> 
> I would say with the filter mod/software oversampling it beats the gumby that i auditioned once, soren/soekris weakness has always been software in my opinion.
> 
> Other people on diyaudio filter brewing thread reported the same improvements by removing the 2hz dc blocking filter.


Isn't that making it NOS? (well, I guess OS via HQP)  See my sig for my current NOS fix.


----------



## Yviena

earnmyturns said:


> Isn't that making it NOS? (well, I guess OS via HQP)  See my sig for my current NOS fix.


Yeah it does bypass the internal filters, i read somewhere on diyaudio that the fifo implementation could be better, and that higher sample rates partially makes it better


----------



## Deaj (Feb 13, 2019)

Edited - diggin' the 'frankentube'!


----------



## kiwivda

Noooo now that has arrived my Lyr3 has gone for warranty repair, it was 3 month waiting...


----------



## Zachik

I did not know the Lyr 3 can take light bulbs...


----------



## ilikepooters

Zachik said:


> I did not know the Lyr 3 can take light bulbs...




Looks like a Foton trapped in a lightbulb


----------



## earnmyturns

kiwivda said:


> Noooo now that has arrived my Lyr3 has gone for warranty repair, it was 3 month waiting...


Looks like the same as the Psvane 6SN7-SE except for having a white base. If so, it's a great Lyr tube!


----------



## kiwivda

earnmyturns said:


> Looks like the same as the Psvane 6SN7-SE except for having a white base. If so, it's a great Lyr tube!


yes it's similar, it is a Shuguang 6SN7-SE GLOBE Shuguang Treasure Series


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## kman1211 (Feb 16, 2019)

Just got a cryo'd 1960's Russian 6H8C tube which really brought the Lyr 3 to life, it's far better than the stock Russian 6N8S and the Tung Sol 6SN7 both of which which sound lifeless, thin, hazy, and lacking clarity in comparison. The mids and highs are so sweet and clear sounding and the bottom end has more heft.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Deaj

bcowen said:


> If you like the '60's Russkie you should try a '50's Foton (preferably pre '57) or the Melz. The cryo treatment adds nothing that I can detect.



I' m expecting a pair of early 50's Foton 6H8C's (ribbed plates) to be delivered this coming week. Should be fun!


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> If you like the '60's Russkie you should try a '50's Foton (preferably pre '57) or the Melz. The cryo treatment adds nothing that I can detect.


If freezing stuff in LN2 really improved things, I'd have dunked my sister's chihuahua in it a long time ago.

Just saying.


----------



## kman1211

bcowen said:


> If you like the '60's Russkie you should try a '50's Foton (preferably pre '57) or the Melz. The cryo treatment adds nothing that I can detect.



I’ll keep those in mind, thank you. I only got the cryo treated out of curiosity. No idea if it makes any difference. I’ll test it myself eventually if I can notice any difference.


----------



## ilikepooters

I think any differences with cryogenic treatment can only be heard by those elite few who can discern difference between a $10 HDMI cable and a $10,000 one.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Zachik

bcowen said:


> I would _never_ spend $10k on a cable.
> 
> But this $9k one sure sounds better, and I now have $1k leftover to spend on tubes.


Those $10K cables have their market...
I mean, what else would you offer a stupid millionaire that walks into a store and asks the owner for "the absolute best cable you got, price is of no concern" ?!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> So.....you callin' me a stupid millionaire?  I'd be OK with that if it were true.  Well, the 2nd part anyway.


Bill, in your case you're not a millionaire per se, but on the other hand - your tube collection is probably worth a fortune!


----------



## tafens

Went out in the web to search for information mainly on the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z and Psvane CV181-Z II, but found a lot of other variants too. So instead of getting the knowledge I was after, I ended up more confused than when I started 

The tubes:
Shuguang WE6SN7 (clear glass)
Shuguang CV181-Z (blue glass)
Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z (black glass)
Psvane UK-6SN7 (clear glass)
Psvane CV181Z-Z II (grey glass)

As I understand it the Psvane CV181-Z II should be the best one, followed by the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z, and then.. I have no idea.

What are the differences between these (specifically with the Lyr3 of course), with regard to sound stage, imaging, clarity, etc? Also as compared to the stock Tung-Sol - which I think is a great tube btw.


----------



## earnmyturns

I believe Shuguang makes the tubes, Psvane is a reseller who take some of their better quality production, repackage, and mark it up. I have Psvane UK-6SN7 on my Lyr currently, and Psvane 6SN7-SE (globe) on my Apex Peak.


----------



## Deaj

bcowen said:


> Cool beans!  The ribbed plates are the best.  Just be sure to give them plenty of break-in time before forming a final opinion. For whatever reason they go on a roller coaster ride between sounding good and bad until you get a minimum of 100 hours on them. The Melz too, although they don't seem to hit the extremes that the Fotons do.



Thanks for the information!


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> So.....you callin' me a stupid millionaire?  I'd be OK with that if it were true.  Well, the 2nd part anyway.


I can assure everyone that Bill is not a Millionaire.  Billionaire? Possibly.  Stupid?  Well, as my momma taught me -- 'if you cannot say something nice, then best you just say nothing at all'.  With that, I'll let others come to their own conclusion.


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## Scrith (Feb 17, 2019)

Who’s going to jump on this before it disappears?!?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Standard-R...185441?hash=item4435f77321:g:MtwAAOSwWTZcZjzh


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Which momma?



The one that left your smart-ass at the fire station drop box.


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## attmci (Feb 17, 2019)

bcowen said:


>


Who can correctly estimate the value of these "*millionaire*'s collection" tubes will be awarded a 9k USB cable by Bill G.

BTW, no ribs in the box.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 17, 2019)

Thought I was PM'ing.  Move on, please.  Nothing to see here.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Scrith said:


> Who’s going to jump on this before it disappears?!?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Standard-R...185441?hash=item4435f77321:g:MtwAAOSwWTZcZjzh





bcowen said:


> LOL!!
> 
> Not going to say "can't be worth it" as value is in the budget of the beholder, but my $5 Frankentubes might go on strike if I bought that.


Bill - we all know by now you're very rich, and tend to make very questionable decisions.... so.... I am not buying this "my $5 Frankentubes might go on strike" act  
(not to mention I am starting to think that you paid $500 for those Frankentubes...)


----------



## Deaj

bcowen said:


> Cool beans!  The ribbed plates are the best.  Just be sure to give them plenty of break-in time before forming a final opinion. For whatever reason they go on a roller coaster ride between sounding good and bad until you get a minimum of 100 hours on them. The Melz too, although they don't seem to hit the extremes that the Fotons do.



I received the two ribbed plate Foton 6N8S tubes today. Unfortunately, one of them arrived with a bad triode (left channel dead silent at any output level). I have a request out to the seller to replace it but it looks like he's out of stock of the ribbed anode Foton's. perhaps the seller willing to put my purchase price toward a ribbed anode Melz.

Fortunately, the other arrived in good working order. For the first hour or so there was some unusual noise from both triodes but most evident in the right channel. 'Popping' is the best description for it. This noise was rather low in volume compared to the music playing but easily discerned. About 1 hour in and the 'popping' went away completely. I've been listening with it for about 3 hours since the noise went away and so far the Lyr 3 sounds fantastic with this tube! I'll keep my expectations in check until this tube has ~100 hours burn-in time. If what I'm hearing right now is indicative of how this tube will sound once it has been run for 100 hours then I'll be looking to pick up a few more at that time. 

This is a bit of a different presentation compared to the 7N7 'frankentube', and I think my beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro headphone sounds a bit better with the Foton. It adds a bit of warmth that suits the DT 1990 well. Me likes!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Deaj

bcowen said:


> Great you got at least one to listen to. Thanks for sharing your initial impressions!
> 
> Do you have a soldering iron?  If so, you might try reheating and flowing a little more solder into the pins of the tube with the silent triode. Could be just a bad solder connection. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's common, but it's not unheard of in some of the early Russian tubes.  If the tube is half-dead anyway, can't hurt much to try it.



I'll give this a try. Definitely worth a go!


----------



## earnmyturns

bcowen said:


> If I were rich, I wouldn't be hanging out in a thread centered around a $500 amp.


It's a very nice amp, which just happens to go for $500. It gets pretty close to my other, much pricier but rare as hen's teeth 6SN7-hybrid amp, with my particular DAC and headphones combo. If budget was not an issue, what would you get?


----------



## ilikepooters

If budget were no issue i'd get a Sennheiser HE1 system just for the willy waving.


----------



## attmci

earnmyturns said:


> It's a very nice amp, which just happens to go for $500. It gets pretty close to my other, much pricier but rare as hen's teeth 6SN7-hybrid amp, with my particular DAC and headphones combo. If budget was not an issue, what would you get?


Maybe this?

http://www.dnaudio.com/DNA-Stellaris-2A3-headphone-amplifier.html


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## m17xr2b

attmci said:


> http://www.dnaudio.com/DNA-Stellaris-2A3-headphone-amplifier.html


Oh yes, it's hard to believe how good it is.


----------



## buonassi

earnmyturns said:


> It's a very nice amp, which just happens to go for $500. It gets pretty close to my other, much pricier but rare as hen's teeth 6SN7-hybrid amp, with my particular DAC and headphones combo. If budget was not an issue, what would you get?


you mean lyr3 vs your Apex? I agreed with your post when you said the Lyr3 can sound outstanding with the right tube (like the PSVanes, etc) but I would have thought the Apex would wipe the floor with the Lyr.  What are the differences specifically?  Resolution?  Control?  Can you list off a few differences? 

On another note, I've been listening to my rHead for the past few weeks and have gotten intrigued about 'next level' solid state.  So I bought a used Lake People RS08 which should be here Friday.


----------



## Deaj

bcowen said:


> Great you got at least one to listen to. Thanks for sharing your initial impressions!
> 
> Do you have a soldering iron?  If so, you might try reheating and flowing a little more solder into the pins of the tube with the silent triode. Could be just a bad solder connection. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's common, but it's not unheard of in some of the early Russian tubes.  If the tube is half-dead anyway, can't hurt much to try it.



I haven't had an opportunity to try this yet (I've been sick all week). I did get ahold of the seller and he agreed to send out a replacement. I ordered another from him as shipping is being covered for the replacement and he offered to ship any additional tubes ordered for free with the replacement. More than I expected really, and quite generous! 

I also found another two new and tested ribbed anode 50's Foton 6N8S tubes for ~$10 each, shipped. That makes five of the tubes. The one I'm currently running in on my Lyr 3 has remained very consistent so far and I really like what I'm hearing. Between the five Foton's, the two 7N7 'frankentubes', four 50's RCA 7N7's, two 50's RCA 6SN7GT's, a Sylvania tall bottle 'chrome dome 6SN7GTA, three 60's RCA 6SN7GTB's, and two re-issue Tung-Sol 6SN7GT's - all either new or tested to be as strong or stronger than new in box NOS - I have enough to keep the Lyr 3 (and Schiit Saga) running for quite a a while.


----------



## attmci

Deaj said:


> I haven't had an opportunity to try this yet (I've been sick all week). I did get ahold of the seller and he agreed to send out a replacement. I ordered another from him as shipping is being covered for the replacement and he offered to ship any additional tubes ordered for free with the replacement. More than I expected really, and quite generous!
> 
> I also found another two new and tested ribbed anode 50's Foton 6N8S tubes for ~$10 each, shipped. That makes five of the tubes. The one I'm currently running in on my Lyr 3 has remained very consistent so far and I really like what I'm hearing. Between the five Foton's, the two 7N7 'frankentubes', four 50's RCA 7N7's, two 50's RCA 6SN7GT's, a Sylvania tall bottle 'chrome dome 6SN7GTA, three 60's RCA 6SN7GTB's, and two re-issue Tung-Sol 6SN7GT's - all either new or tested to be as strong or stronger than new in box NOS - I have enough to keep the Lyr 3 (and Schiit Saga) running for quite a a while.


That's a lifetime supply if you plan to use all of them. Unfortunately, you may buy more tubes in the future, and most of the current purchase will just sit in the boxes.

Hope you will get will soon.

BTW, can you guys use 6sl7gt in Lyr 3? Too much gains?


----------



## m17xr2b

I've never seen a 6SN7 design that can use 6SL7, you're asking for trouble and voiding your warranty.  While it will work the long term consequences are unknown.


----------



## earnmyturns

buonassi said:


> you mean lyr3 vs your Apex? I agreed with your post when you said the Lyr3 can sound outstanding with the right tube (like the PSVanes, etc) but I would have thought the Apex would wipe the floor with the Lyr.  What are the differences specifically?  Resolution?  Control?  Can you list off a few differences?


No, the Apex does not "wipe the floor with the Lyr." It has better resolution, better instrument separation, and the midrange (especially for piano) is more controlled and refined, but it is not a huge difference. In addition, the Lyr has more power. I mostly listen at moderate levels, but in some cases that extra power seems to improve bass impact. So, I actually enjoy switching between the two from time to time. Last but not the least, the Apex is more than 7 years old (I'm the 3rd owner) and I have to "save" it as it's not clear that I can get it repaired if something starts failing (like drying electrolytic caps).


----------



## buonassi

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7-tube-pairs.900602/

Prices are meh, but not too bad.  Try to resist ripper.....


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Deaj

bcowen said:


> Nice to hear the seller is being good about stuff. Wish they were all like that.
> 
> _"Between the five Foton's, the two 7N7 'frankentubes', four 50's RCA 7N7's, two 50's RCA 6SN7GT's, a Sylvania tall bottle 'chrome dome 6SN7GTA, three 60's RCA 6SN7GTB's, and two re-issue Tung-Sol 6SN7GT's..."
> _
> Great start! Only a couple hundred more to go now...



Must.... resist....


----------



## ilikepooters

earnmyturns said:


> No, the Apex does not "wipe the floor with the Lyr." It has better resolution, better instrument separation, and the midrange (especially for piano) is more controlled and refined, but it is not a huge difference. In addition, the Lyr has more power. I mostly listen at moderate levels, but in some cases that extra power seems to improve bass impact. So, I actually enjoy switching between the two from time to time. Last but not the least, the Apex is more than 7 years old (I'm the 3rd owner) and I have to "save" it as it's not clear that I can get it repaired if something starts failing (like drying electrolytic caps).



Being in USA there's probably a lot of people you could send it off to if it needs a re-cap


----------



## Zachik

buonassi said:


> Prices are meh, but not too bad. *Try to resist ripper*.....


That is as futile as telling a dog to stop licking its butt...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Here I was minding my own business ...


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Here I was minding my own business ...


No such thing on these threads!!


----------



## buonassi

So after getting a bit familiar with tubes (thanks Lyr3), I've circled back to solid state and a little thing called CanOpener Studio by Goodhertz.  It's a plugin that works in AU and VST form, so you need a plugin host like JRiver or Audirvana+. It uses psycho acoustic delay modeling to increase the soundstage and push instruments out further.  It's quite convincing and does this with no loss of quality like some other plugins that prioritize frontal localization (at the expense of resolution and retaining the original FR presentation.)

In terms of separation of instruments and placement precision (width, height, and depth) it seems to do this better than tubes - kinda similar, but more focused at a palpable distance.  I can almost always 'grab' an instrument that's precisely placed within the arch above and to the sides of me.  But, it is not a replacement for the warmth and tone you'd get from tubes.  Still, I guess I say this as a PSA, cause it's really fun and very much hifi with 64bit processing.  Of course, the best is when you use it with a nice tube amp - it's never "too much of a good thing".

Anyone else try this software and want to share settings?


----------



## Rowethren

Anyone in the UK have access to a tube tester as one of my Bad Boys has stopped working, it doesn't heat up and produces no sound at all but the Lyr 3 is still working fine with the stock tube... A real pain as it isn't even that old. Probably less than 50 hours run time


----------



## FLTWS

If 1/2 of the tube doesn't light I'm not sure what a tube tester will tell you? One triode is dead would be my guess.


----------



## Rowethren

None of the tube heats up, no sound from either channel unfortunately... What a pain considering how expensive these are


----------



## FLTWS

Yes they are expensive. The fact that your LYR works with the stock tiube tells the tale. There are some very knowledgeable tube-o-philes here who suggest re-soldering the pins a bit to flow and re-connect any broken leads but I don't think that's the case here if both halves are dead.


----------



## Rowethren

I suspect you are probably right, I was suggested to test the heater pins with a multi meter so I will do that when I get home but I am guessing I am schiit out of luck. I might try contacting the seller though as they were sold as NOS and to last less than 50 hours before failure doesn't sound like NOS to me!


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## ilikepooters (Feb 22, 2019)

heaters are connected in series through pins 7 and 8, it it's not glowing there's a break somewhere, possibly burned out filament.

It is possible a bad solder joint in pin 7 or 8, this will stop the whole tube lighting up but can be fixed with a hot soldering iron.

multimeter continuity test will confirm if open circuit.


----------



## ilikepooters

Duplicate post


----------



## Scrith (Feb 22, 2019)

buonassi said:


> So after getting a bit familiar with tubes (thanks Lyr3), I've circled back to solid state and a little thing called CanOpener Studio by Goodhert.



I've been using CanOpener for awhile and I agree that it really opens most headphones up.

In addition to effects like what CanOpener gives you (which can vary from one music style to the next, so I tend to run with minimal modifications, or just turn it on and off as needed with JRiver's easy plug-in interface), I think a good EQ setup (I prefer parametric) that is carefully tuned to the frequency response of your speakers or headphones (and then your ears) is absolutely essential to getting the most from ffrom your system.   I've blind tested a few people with this (you have to be certain to match output levels for such a test) and they all have noticed a substantial improvement.

I believe proper setup of your software is as important (if not more so) than the differences between any two tubes I've heard.  Tubes are a great way to take your enjoyment a step further, of course...but don't forget the basics of audio, and the advantages of having a digital version of the audio output available, enabling extremely helpful customization of the sound for your environment and ears.


----------



## Rowethren

Infinite resistance between 7 and 8 assuming they are the 2 anti clockwise of the insertion notch... Ah well it's dead. I will see what the seller says about, a NOS tube should last a damn site longer than this one did!


----------



## tafens

Just ordered my fourth (unique) tube, a Psvane HIFI UK-6SN7 (clear glass, wanna see the glow!) for $47 delivered. That’s excluding import fees and tax of course.

When it arrives I’ll pit against the stock Tung-Sol option which I like a lot. Being a bit pricier than the Tung-Sol I hope I hear the difference!


----------



## Zachik

tafens said:


> Just ordered my fourth (unique) tube, a Psvane HIFI UK-6SN7 (clear glass, wanna see the glow!) for $47 delivered. That’s excluding import fees and tax of course.


I am curious - where did you find it for this price?


----------



## ilikepooters

tafens said:


> Just ordered my fourth (unique) tube, a Psvane HIFI UK-6SN7 (clear glass, wanna see the glow!) for $47 delivered. That’s excluding import fees and tax of course.
> 
> When it arrives I’ll pit against the stock Tung-Sol option which I like a lot. Being a bit pricier than the Tung-Sol I hope I hear the difference!




If from China there probably won't be any import fees, they're good at marking down value on customs forms  Wish american sellers would do that.


----------



## tafens

Zachik said:


> I am curious - where did you find it for this price?



eBay, from a seller called psvanevalve. I realise it’ll probably not have the best matched sections and all, but should give me a general idea of the sound I hope.


----------



## tafens

ilikepooters said:


> If from China there probably won't be any import fees, they're good at marking down value on customs forms  Wish american sellers would do that.



I would hope so, but eBay sellers have been painfully good at marking the actual value lately. 

But, even if they would mark it down, the Swedish postal service (PostNord) will always add a $10 import handling fee to any commercial package from outside of the EU.. so in the end it will most probably cost me something like $70 ($47 + 25% vat + $10 import fee).


----------



## Yviena (Feb 24, 2019)

tafens said:


> eBay, from a seller called psvanevalve. I realise it’ll probably not have the best matched sections and all, but should give me a general idea of the sound I hope.


You probably don't need to worry about matched sections as much with new production psvane tubes, i bought my UK-6sn7 from mala audio in norway, a bit more expensive but atleast i don't have to wait a month for it to arrive.

Hmm the 6N8S MELZ sounds interesting  probably a contender for Psvane 6sn7, i found some for 30$ on ebay so i think i'll order one or two.


----------



## tafens

Yviena said:


> You probably don't need to worry about matched sections as much with new production psvane tubes, i bought my UK-6sn7 from mala audio in norway, a bit more expensive but atleast i don't have to wait a month for it to arrive



How would you say it sounds campared to the new production Russian Tung-Sol 6SN7 (if you have it)?


----------



## Yviena (Feb 25, 2019)

tafens said:


> How would you say it sounds campared to the new production Russian Tung-Sol 6SN7 (if you have it)?



Better depth/width, and instrument seperation is what i immediately notice with the uk-6sn7, bass is quite enjoyable too with a HD800 which i always found a little lacking in the bass impact.


----------



## RestoredSparda

I'm curious if you wise people can confirm this pair of 2 hole bad boys is a good buy? They seem to look legit and tested well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-Tests...937939?hash=item2877b36753:g:0BUAAOSwkAxcNeGU


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 28, 2019)

The price seems reasonable for a pair and they check-off all of the attributes required to be legit 2-hole BB's.  They measure well and are from a solid seller with a good reputation, as well. 

(I can recommend this seller as I've purchased tubes from this seller in the past.)


----------



## 441879

RestoredSparda said:


> I'm curious if you wise people can confirm this pair of 2 hole bad boys is a good buy? They seem to look legit and tested well.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-Tests...937939?hash=item2877b36753:g:0BUAAOSwkAxcNeGU



Looks legit to me. I compared the pics to my BB and couldn’t see any significant differences. You should like them- they sound great!


----------



## Zachik

RestoredSparda said:


> I'm curious if you wise people can confirm this pair of 2 hole bad boys is a good buy? They seem to look legit and tested well.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-Tests...937939?hash=item2877b36753:g:0BUAAOSwkAxcNeGU


Please save me from buying those (by buying yourself)... My wallet would thank you...


----------



## RestoredSparda

Ripper2860 said:


> The price seems reasonable for a pair and they check-off all of the attributes required to be legit 2-hole BB's.  They measure well and are from a solid buyer with a good reputation, as well.
> 
> (I can recommend this seller as I've purchased tubes from this seller in the past.)



Fantastic. Thanks so much for the confirmation. It will be good to have a spare as well.


----------



## RestoredSparda

Zachik said:


> Please save me from buying those (by buying yourself)... My wallet would thank you...



Done and done!


----------



## Yviena

Hmm does anyone know if.there are any tubes that beat the already good.psvane 6sn7-se/uk?


----------



## earnmyturns

Yviena said:


> Hmm does anyone know if.there are any tubes that beat the already good.psvane 6sn7-se/uk?


Let me know if you find any!


----------



## Deaj (Mar 2, 2019)

*1950's RCA 6SN7GT in the Saga* (black ladder plates, offset / black base, silver silkscreen)  +  *7N7 'frankentube' in the Lyr 3*  +  *beyerdynamic Amiron home*  =  happy ears / happy brain! 

I've noticed that stacking tubes with the Saga and Lyr 3 can lend a holographic-like effect to music, even if at the expense of some accuracy, that certainly can enhance the listening experience (liberal use of the word 'can' given the vast number of potential variables). 

In this case, I'm listening to various Steely Dan tracks in CD quality FLAC, Foobar2000 / bit perfect -> EITR -> Mimby -> (chain mentioned at the start of this post).

Cycling the Saga between passive and active makes the above mentioned effect very easy to discern. Either way the listening experience is enjoyable but Saga active in this chain listening with the Amiron home sounds really, really good!


----------



## Zachik

Deaj said:


> *1950's RCA 6SN7GT in the Saga* (black ladder plates, offset / black base, silver silkscreen)  +  *7N7 'frankentube' in the Lyr 3*  +  *beyerdynamic Amiron home*  =  happy ears!


Interesting... double-tubing? 
Never heard of anyone that uses tube pre-amp and tube amp. At least not for headphones...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 2, 2019)

Tread carefully.  'Double-Tubing' is outlawed in most civilized nations and frowned upon in those where it is not.


----------



## Deaj (Mar 3, 2019)

Zachik said:


> Interesting... double-tubing?
> Never heard of anyone that uses tube pre-amp and tube amp. At least not for headphones...



I have a Schiit Saga preamp in the signal chain. The Saga can function as either a passive preamp allowing for source selection and passive attenuation, or as an active preamp which utilizes a single 6SN7 tube in a tube / solid state hybrid buffer. The impact the tube has on the signal isn't quite as obvious as the tubes impact on the sound of the Lyr 3 amp but it's there. Stacking the two can yield some interesting results. In this case the results are quite pleasant. 

ETA:

I replied straight from an email notification. ....then noticed that you already knew all of this.

"Always look both ways before crossing the street." she said. Turns out my mom was pretty smart.


----------



## Deaj

Ripper2860 said:


> Tread carefully.  'Double-Tubing' is outlawed in most civilized nations and even frowned upon in those where it is not.



True, but there are some dark corners of the internet that cater to this sort of behavior.


----------



## Ripper2860

Links, please!!!


----------



## ProfFalkin

I was doing Saga to BH Crack on one output, and Jotunheim on the other.   Active or passive, it was pretty transparent.  Active mode added a very slight bit of tube flavor, but compared to how a tube influences an amp like the Lyr 3, it was a very miniscule change.

Saga is a very good pre.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Tread carefully.  'Double-Tubing' is outlawed in most civilized nations and frowned upon in those where it is not.


Some people have the talent for making everything sound dirty...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 2, 2019)

What? Me?


----------



## Deaj

Ripper2860 said:


> Links, please!!!



I'm trying to post links but the pictures keep getting censored....


----------



## Ripper2860

Darn.  Thanks for trying.


----------



## Deaj

ProfFalkin said:


> Saga is a very good pre.



Agreed!


----------



## Deaj

Yviena said:


> Hmm does anyone know if.there are any tubes that beat the already good.psvane 6sn7-se/uk?



What sonic traits from the Psvane do you enjoy? Any sonic traits you find unnoteworthy or lacking from the Psvane? Also, what music genres to you tend to favor? Lastly, do you have a price cap for a tube purchase? Answers to these questions may help narrow suggestions that best fit your preferences, though ultimately what's 'best' is a matter of subjectivity and personal tastes. 

I'd be interested to hear more about the Psvane 6SN7-SE/UK. Save for being easy on they eyes I don't know much about this tubes impact on the Lyr 3's sound.


----------



## Yviena

Deaj said:


> What sonic traits from the Psvane do you enjoy? Any sonic traits you find unnoteworthy or lacking from the Psvane? Also, what music genres to you tend to favor? Lastly, do you have a price cap for a tube purchase? Answers to these questions may help narrow suggestions that best fit your preferences, though ultimately what's 'best' is a matter of subjectivity and personal tastes.
> 
> I'd be interested to hear more about the Psvane 6SN7-SE/UK. Save for being easy on they eyes I don't know much about this tubes impact on the Lyr 3's sound.



I do enjoy the added bass impacts/ that the psvane adds the sound feels very alive, and energetic , but as i mainly listen to classical/epic type of music, i want a tube with enormous holographic soundstage while still being good enough in other areas, price cap  probably be around 70-110$ per tube.


----------



## Deaj

Yviena said:


> I do enjoy the added bass impacts/ that the psvane adds the sound feels very alive, and energetic , but as i mainly listen to classical/epic type of music, i want a tube with enormous holographic soundstage while still being good enough in other areas, price cap  probably be around 70-110$ per tube.



Thanks for the info on the Psvane! I'll give this some thought and if I have any suggestions I'll post them. Ultimately those who have heard the Psvane in the Lyr 3 will be better equipped to make recommendations.


----------



## earnmyturns

Deaj said:


> Thanks for the info on the Psvane! I'll give this some thought and if I have any suggestions I'll post them. Ultimately those who have heard the Psvane in the Lyr 3 will be better equipped to make recommendations.


I listen to lots of modern jazz, also classical, world. The Psvane tubes have great bass -- full-bodied, controlled -- and smooth, dense mids and highs. Instrument separation is very good, but soundstage does not sound huge, maybe because these tubes are not as euphonic as the NOS tubes I've tried (Ken-Rad VT-231, Sylvania 2-hole "Bad Boy"). For my taste and music choices, the Psvane tubes (-UK and even more the -SE) win.


----------



## FLTWS

earnmyturns said:


> I listen to lots of modern jazz, also classical, world. The Psvane tubes have great bass -- full-bodied, controlled -- and smooth, dense mids and highs. Instrument separation is very good, but soundstage does not sound huge, maybe because these tubes are not as euphonic as the NOS tubes I've tried (Ken-Rad VT-231, Sylvania 2-hole "Bad Boy"). For my taste and music choices, the Psvane tubes (-UK and even more the -SE) win.



I have the the UK, the TII, and SE, they are all excellent with LYR3 and Abyss Phi, and I do like the SE best. Psvanes seem to combine "some" of the best sonic qualities of tube sound with clarity and extension of SS sound. Of course if you want that old-time tube euphony then your going to have to dive in to the complex world of NOS tubes, many of which are very good indeed but there is a steep experience and knowledge and preference curve to go through (along with your wallet).


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Wow.  You should right a book and call it "The Kamasutra of Tube Rolling".  It could be the next "Tube Lore"!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 3, 2019)

You can have Bernie Sanders co-author it.

(Dammit!!!  I was typing a response and just caught it.  WRITE!!!  )

Bill Retribution Checklist:

1. RX-8 (not 7)
2. Buy garage opener code scanner
3. 5 lbs of Sugar-in-the-Raw
4. Buy 500 live crickets to release in house


----------



## buonassi

Guys, the time has come to say goodbye for now.  I've decided to pursue pure transparency and resolution and have decided to go with solid state again.  Now, I want to say that NO tube emulator or software can do what the lyr3 does with the right tube.  Different, yes.  Better?  well that's highly subjective.  

The Lyr3 is one of those pieces that I really struggled to list for sale.  Like the HD600, mojo, or DFR - the Lyr3 is a classic milestone piece for price/performance ratio.  While my time with the lyr was awesome, the sale funds will be reinvested into my journey as I strive for next level sonics into the original recording.

The time may come where I part out the tubes for individual sale, but as of now it's a package deal.  You guys have been a blast, and I'll hang on to the thread for a bit longer!  Until bill or ripper revoke my club membership at least.   

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-schiit-lyr3-with-many-tubes-no-dac-module.901420/


----------



## earnmyturns

buonassi said:


> Guys, the time has come to say goodbye for now.  I've decided to pursue pure transparency and resolution and have decided to go with solid state again.


Looking for solid-state transparency and resolution? You could do worse than this end-of-line sale. Great amp for magnetic planars from MrSpeakers.


----------



## ProfFalkin

buonassi said:


> Guys, the time has come to say goodbye for now.  I've decided to pursue pure transparency and resolution and have decided to go with solid state again.  Now, I want to say that NO tube emulator or software can do what the lyr3 does with the right tube.  Different, yes.  Better?  well that's highly subjective.
> 
> The Lyr3 is one of those pieces that I really struggled to list for sale.  Like the HD600, mojo, or DFR - the Lyr3 is a classic milestone piece for price/performance ratio.  While my time with the lyr was awesome, the sale funds will be reinvested into my journey as I strive for next level sonics into the original recording.
> 
> ...


Happy trails!   Which SS are you looking to get into?


----------



## buonassi (Mar 3, 2019)

earnmyturns said:


> Looking for solid-state transparency and resolution? You could do worse than this end-of-line sale. Great amp for magnetic planars from MrSpeakers.


its on my list after I've spent a few months with the RS-08 I currently have. Thanks for the suggestion!



ProfFalkin said:


> Happy trails! Which SS are you looking to get into?



Lake People HPA RS-08 is what I picked up a few weeks ago.  Also looking for a Qutest to upgrade my 2Qute as this piece is on my current trip's roadmap.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 3, 2019)

bcowen said:


> We'll never kick you out of the club. Tubes are like meth -- there _is_ remission, but there is no cure (at least that's what @Ripper2860 tells me).  Seriously, I hope your journey along whatever path you take continues to bring you enjoyment.



There ain't no cure!!  Sad, but he'll be rolling op-amps before it's all over. 



bcowen said:


> don't be Bill



Wiser words have never been written.

OK, seriously.  Have fun!!  It's all about the fun!! Once a Schiit tuber always a Schiit tuber, so you'll always be welcome here.  Plus we'll always want to know how it's going in SS land and what it is we may be missing.


----------



## FLTWS (Mar 3, 2019)

bcowen said:


> We'll never kick you out of the club. Tubes are like meth -- there _is_ remission, but there is no cure (at least that's what @Ripper2860 tells me).   Seriously, I hope your journey along whatever path you take continues to bring you enjoyment.
> 
> Apologies in advance for straying off the thread topic, but around 15 years ago I had built a 2-channel system that was well on up there with the high and mighty of the audiophile world. It had started out quite humbly, but over the years I had continued to upgrade and tweak and tune in that seemingly endless quest to remove every coloration and retrieve every possible piece of information contained in the pits and grooves. And as that system climbed the ladder of "high-endedness" a couple curious things happened. I had a pretty sizable collection of LP's and CD's, and as the resolution of the system increased, there were larger and larger chunks of that collection that ceased being enjoyable to listen to. Sure, awesome recordings sounded even more awesome, but less than awesome recordings became no joys. Why is it that so many awesome recordings are of such suck-a$$ music -- and vice versa?  The other thing that happened?  I began to enjoy sitting down and listening to music less and less. At the end, this mucho-dinero system that had scaled lofty heights of transparency and accuracy would sit for weeks without ever being turned on. It no longer beckoned me. And it finally dawned on me that I truly was an idiot and had traveled down a path of intellectual correctness at the expense of musical correctness.  My brain was impressed, but my emotional side that wanted so much to be immersed and connected with the music had been left out in the cold. So am I suggesting that colorations and distortions are good things?  Of course not. All I'm saying is that **for me* *the path down the road of accuracy and technical truth _above all else_ turned out to be a dead end. An "upgrade" for me now is something that causes my foot to tap a little harder, or the goose bumps to pop a little higher, or the listening session to last a little longer than I had time to give it. If my brain is offended but my foot is tapping harder, the foot wins. What brings about that emotional connection is obviously different for each of us, and of course there is no right or wrong. Just be sure that your involvement and enjoyment goes forward with each step and never takes a step back. Or in other words, don't be Bill.



Bingo! I still think back to the days of Dynaco, Marantz and early ARC tubed gear and wonder where that sound and the satisfaction that came with it go.
That's the thing with my LYR3, it's almost...and I definitely prefer it to my other 2 tube amps. That's one reason Woo's dance through my imagination every day or so and think, huh, point to point wiring and output transformers or OTL..


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Perhaps the future history books will be kind.



I've already started hoarding all the future history books!!


----------



## Deaj

Ripper2860 said:


> I've already started hoarding all the future history books!!



I have several NOS/NIB future history books I'm willing to part with for the right price.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 3, 2019)

AKA -- The Sad Story of @bcowen as Told by His Only Real Friend, Ripper2860.  



(OK -- that was a good one.  My response pales in comparison)


----------



## attmci

will f said:


> Looks legit to me. I compared the pics to my BB and couldn’t see any significant differences. You should like them- they sound great!


Oh, NO. You guys still believe 2-hole BB??????????

And this seller is called everything WE 422A (made by RCA, made by what the hell). LOL

Good luck with tube rolling.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> I see.


LOL


----------



## musicfrommemory

Hi Everyone

Is anyone willing to share some of their trusted tube suppliers on eBay? I'm based in the UK (but will purchase worldwide) and seemingly restricted to purchasing from https://www.langrex.co.uk who are great but have limited stock. Would like to purchase more but a bit worried about frying my system with a dodgy tube.

Big thanks,

MFM


----------



## attmci

musicfrommemory said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> Is anyone willing to share some of their trusted tube suppliers on eBay? I'm based in the UK (but will purchase worldwide) and seemingly restricted to purchasing from https://www.langrex.co.uk who are great but have limited stock. Would like to purchase more but a bit worried about frying my system with a dodgy tube.
> 
> ...


Sorry, No. You have to learn to identify tubes.


----------



## musicfrommemory

attmci said:


> Sorry, No. You have to learn to identify tubes.



Thanks - not sure what you mean but since posting I've found quite a few UK valve stores - just picked up a Brimar 6SN7GT.


----------



## ilikepooters

It's worth getting a valve tester being a tube roller, but even if you have just a multimeter you can check for shorts and that should be enough to keep lyr safe.


----------



## RJ58 (Mar 6, 2019)

Hi all, recently got a Lyr 3 and am starting to try out some tube rolling. Currently have both the stock (russian NOS and Tung-Sol) tubes (early impressions have me preferring the russian NOS for my Elex), and a PSvane UK 6SN7 is on the way. I was wondering if anyone could give me any insight on how the Westinghouse 6SN7 GTB (d-getter) sounds in comparison to these, as I am looking for something more warm-leaning than the stock tubes for the Elex (I believe I read the westinghouse was on the warm side...not sure if anyone has done any compares with the PSvane). Thanks for your time!


----------



## ProfFalkin

I should sell all my Lyr 3 tubes.   One of these days I'll get a list together and post.


----------



## ilikepooters

RJ58 said:


> Hi all, recently got a Lyr 3 and am starting to try out some tube rolling. Currently have both the stock (russian NOS and Tung-Sol) tubes (early impressions have me preferring the russian NOS for my Elex), and a PSvane UK 6SN7 is on the way. I was wondering if anyone could give me any insight on how the Westinghouse 6SN7 GTB (d-getter) sounds in comparison to these, as I am looking for something more warm-leaning than the stock tubes for the Elex (I believe I read the westinghouse was on the warm side...not sure if anyone has done any compares with the PSvane). Thanks for your time!




Westinghouse D has a touch of warmth but it more or less neutral to my ears.

Warm tubes: MELZ 1578, Brimar 6SN7, Sylvania Bad Boy, RCA 5692


----------



## OldSkool

Did someone say...Bad Boys?

I have 3 pair of "the real deal" 3-hole Sylvania 6SN7 bad boys, all 1952's. Thinking I will keep one pair, but sell off the other 2 pair, or even split up into singles for the Lyr3.

Food for thought.


----------



## m17xr2b

ilikepooters said:


> Warm tubes: MELZ 1578


The MELZ warm? I would seriously doubt that, I hear it as V shaped, energetic, great extension but nothing resembling warmth.


----------



## attmci

What's the market price of a pair of real deal bad boy? Hints?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Sylvania...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## Rowethren

That looks like a damn good price for 2. Shame it is sold now, mine was 120 for 2... 

And they are both dead in less than 6 months due to heater failure! Tempted to go for a paypal refund as they definitely weren't NOS! The second tube I started using after the first one died the other week only lasted about 3 days!!!


----------



## OldSkool

@attmci  Without measurements? Worthless, IMO.

But what do I know? I'm just a Oldskool head-fier that shakes my head when I see mismatched 2- hole chrome domes being sold off as real bad boys.


----------



## attmci

Rowethren said:


> That looks like a damn good price for 2. Shame it is sold now, mine was 120 for 2...
> 
> And they are both dead in less than 6 months due to heater failure! Tempted to go for a paypal refund as they definitely weren't NOS! The second tube I started using after the first one died the other week only lasted about 3 days!!!


Sorry for that. That's the risk of buying vintage tubes from the eastbay.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## OldSkool

@bcowen


----------



## m17xr2b

I've seen 4 types of sellers on ebay
1. Includes test results with references to new values
2. Includes test results but quotes the fail value as the "good" one e.g. 6mA for 6sn7 when it's actually 9.0 
3. Says it's tested without providing results
4. No test 

I only buy from 1 and occasionally 2 if I know the actual nos value.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Rowethren

attmci said:


> Sorry for that. That's the risk of buying vintage tubes from the eastbay.





bcowen said:


> 1. Includes test results with references to new values
> 2. Includes test results but quotes the fail value as the "good" one e.g. 6mA for 6sn7 when it's actually 9.0
> 2.5 Says it's tested, provides results, but provides no reference to those results (minimum good, new, tester used, etc)
> 3. Says it's tested without providing results
> 4. No test



Yes this was a case of number 2.5 and I don't really have enough knowledge to know any better to be honest, I am much more of a casual tube addict lol. I am seeing if Paypal will help me out at all though as $165 for 1 tube that lasted a few months of rare use until failure followed by only a couple of weeks before failure in the same usage for the second tube reeks of miss selling to me!


----------



## Yviena

Hmm is the only genuine MELZ 6n8s the one with guards?

i can find lots of MELZ 6n8s on ebay but many of them are without the guard, while still having holes.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Rowethren

bcowen said:


> Were they sold as NOS?  If so, that would most definitely be false advertising as a NOS 6SN7 should be good for 2k hours at bare minimum.  Have you contacted the seller?  That's the first thing PayPal will require you to do anyway...



They were sold as like new. I contacted them on the 22nd of Feb through eBay with no reply so I put in a Paypal claim this afternoon and apparently they have replied already and Paypal are "investigating". Funny that they ignore my original message for 2 weeks but as soon as I post a claim they reply immediately! I wonder what they said lol, I guess I will find out in a day or so. Before anyone asks, it isn't an amp problem either as I have been running a set of Fotons with absolutely no issues the last few days to double check that wasn't the issue.


----------



## Yviena

bcowen said:


> What are you referring to with ":guards"?



I meant the steel brackets.


----------



## ilikepooters

Yviena said:


> Hmm is the only genuine MELZ 6n8s the one with guards?
> 
> i can find lots of MELZ 6n8s on ebay but many of them are without the guard, while still having holes.









Genuine 1578 on the left, this is the one you want.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Hey all,

I no longer own the Lyr 3, so I will be dropping my subscription to this thread.   Happy tube rolling!   

Cya around!


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I no longer own the Lyr 3, so I will be dropping my subscription to this thread.   Happy tube rolling!
> 
> Cya around!


Take care man!  I learned a lot from you, in this thread.  Thanks man


----------



## Wes S

I just started tube rolling with my Lyr 3 again, to see if I can better the Sylvania 52' bad boy, and first roll was the National Union grey glass.  The Bad Boy is better and is back in the amp.  The National Union was a bit cold, and just did not jive with me.  Now I have a Brimar CV1988 black glass, on the way, and we will see how it battles with the Bad Boy. . .


----------



## attmci

OldSkool said:


> @attmci  Without measurements? Worthless, IMO.
> 
> But what do I know? I'm just a Oldskool head-fier that shakes my head when I see mismatched 2- hole chrome domes being sold off as real bad boys.


They are actually in my collection. They tested good and sounds good.  I have no idea what the current price for these, but I cannot pass at that price.


----------



## attmci

m17xr2b said:


> I've seen 4 types of sellers on ebay
> 1. Includes test results with references to new values
> 2. Includes test results but quotes the fail value as the "good" one e.g. 6mA for 6sn7 when it's actually 9.0
> 3. Says it's tested without providing results
> ...


I don't care. I have a tube test on my table. They looks and smells bad. The wife had asked me to throw it  away many times. But No.


----------



## Wes S (Mar 7, 2019)

Anywhere from 50 to 125 US dollars per tube.


attmci said:


> What's the market price of a pair of real deal bad boy? Hints?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Sylvania-6SN7GT-Tubes-USA-3-hole-plate-pair-2/283382552428?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649



That was a steal!


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> What are you referring to with ":guards"?



Ummmm...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 7, 2019)

Yeah.  I was 3 margaritas into a happy hour when I posted that.  I guess I could have posted a more fierce pic of guards, but they are guards, and they do have pointy sticks that properly placed could be rather uncomfortable.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 7, 2019)

ProfFalkin said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I no longer own the Lyr 3, so I will be dropping my subscription to this thread.   Happy tube rolling!
> 
> Cya around!



You will be missed, dear Professor.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

bcowen said:


> Not sure what those guys are guarding, but it would be rather difficult to be scared of them.


Vatican City...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 8, 2019)

Yep.  The Swiss Guard protecting Swiss Cheese at the Vatican.  You should thank them with every assorted cheese tray you enjoy.


----------



## ItsAllInMyHead

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep.  The Swiss Guard protecting Swiss Cheese the Vatican.  You should thank them with every assorted cheese tray you enjoy.


I didn't know they protected it.  I thought they put the holes in it with their pointy sticks.  Learned my new thing for the day


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 7, 2019)

Well, yeah.  I guess since you've let a centuries old secret out of the bag, I can confirm that they do that as well.

What's next -- there's no Santa??!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> And here I thought they were guarding @Ripper2860 's tube stash. One guard per tube. I just got some learnin' too.



Silly boy.  Here's my perimeter defense system ...


----------



## earnmyturns

ProfFalkin said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I no longer own the Lyr 3, so I will be dropping my subscription to this thread.   Happy tube rolling!
> 
> Cya around!


So long and thanks for all the tube advice (ht Douglas Adams)! For our edification, what amps are grabbing your attention these days?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 7, 2019)

Deleted


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Silly boy.  Here's my perimeter defense system ...


All bark. No teeth...  
Guess that describes @Ripper2860 too


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 7, 2019)

Zachik said:


> All bark. No teeth...
> Guess that describes @Ripper2860 too



Here let me help you out, since obviously your money has gone towards tubes and not a monitor upgrade ...



Yep.  Those are teeth.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Here let me help you out, since obviously your money has gone towards tubes and not a monitor upgrade ...
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.  Those are teeth.


Touche!


----------



## Rowethren

This looks like a steal for a 3 hole BB, what do you think?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Crosley-br...543311?hash=item3d84d4cb8f:g:v6sAAOSwAvNcetiO


----------



## Wes S

Rowethren said:


> This looks like a steal for a 3 hole BB, what do you think?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Crosley-br...543311?hash=item3d84d4cb8f:g:v6sAAOSwAvNcetiO


Definitely seen some use, but could go low, with no bids so far. . .


----------



## ProfFalkin

earnmyturns said:


> So long and thanks for all the tube advice (ht Douglas Adams)! For our edification, what amps are grabbing your attention these days?


Mainly the ECP audio DSHA-3F.  I did give the Phonitor X a try too, but it wasn't quite for me.


----------



## Wes S (Mar 8, 2019)

ProfFalkin said:


> Mainly the ECP audio DSHA-3F.  I did give the Phonitor X a try too, but it wasn't quite for me.


Damn!  That is a cool looking amp, that i have never heard of.  No more tubes?


----------



## ProfFalkin (Mar 8, 2019)

Wes S said:


> Damn!  That is a cool looking amp, that i have never heard of.  No more tubes?


Tubes are good and all, but after spending twice the cost of the amp trying to find the perfect one, I realized it's not for me.   I'll stick with my BHC for tubes - where I've already found the ideal pairing for my tastes - and get a SS amp that will last forever for the bulk of my audio duties.

Ironically, the DSHA has amazing tube-like qualities, which is probably why I have enjoyed it so much.   It also allows you to roll output transformers.  The 3F on my desk now is a loaner, and it goes back to it's owner tomorrow.  Sadness.  Doug at ECP is building mine now and hopefully will be done before the end of March.

The 3F pretty much bests the EC Black Widow 2 in all categories, except for bass quantity.  (BW2 has an emphasis here, and the 3F does not.)  It also destroys the Phonitor X handily.  It is basically a SS amp that is on par with tube amps like the EC Aficionado.

It's worth reading atomicbob's measurements (posted on a different site) regarding this amp.  It's very special.

Sorry for the off-topic post.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> Tubes are good and all, but after spending twice the cost of the amp trying to find the perfect one, I realized it's not for me.   I'll stick with my BHC for tubes - where I've already found the ideal pairing for my tastes - and get a SS amp that will last forever for the bulk of my audio duties.
> 
> Ironically, the DSHA has amazing tube-like qualities, which is probably why I have enjoyed it so much.   It also allows you to roll output transformers.  The 3F on my desk now is a loaner, and it goes back to it's owner tomorrow.  Sadness.  Doug at ECP is building mine now and hopefully will be done before the end of March.
> 
> ...


That's good stuff!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Good riddance you rat person traitor!!   ...





OK.  Seriously.  *Don't Leave Professor!!  If you leave, we'll NEVER get off the island!!!*


----------



## ProfFalkin

I've followed certain folks from this thread, and will certainly be keeping in touch.  Thanks all.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## earnmyturns

ProfFalkin said:


> Mainly the ECP audio DSHA-3F.  I did give the Phonitor X a try too, but it wasn't quite for me.


Interesting. Was also looking at those 2, but 3F is no longer made, and anyway I'm not sure it would work well with my Ether C Flows. What put you off the Phonitor? And I'm still a bit infatuated with 6SN7-based gear


----------



## Wes S (Mar 8, 2019)

earnmyturns said:


> Interesting. Was also looking at those 2, but 3F is no longer made, and anyway I'm not sure it would work well with my Ether C Flows. What put you off the Phonitor? And I'm still a bit infatuated with 6SN7-based gear


He is having a 3F made at the moment, so i would think they are still being made or special order?


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Good riddance you rat person traitor!!  ...





bcowen said:


> Well, maybe not the 'rat' part...



Ripper has always been somewhat of a drama queen...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 8, 2019)

Zachik said:


> Ripper has always been somewhat of a drama queen...


*
PASSIONATE! * The word you are looking for is *PASSIONATE!*


----------



## ProfFalkin (Mar 8, 2019)

earnmyturns said:


> Interesting. Was also looking at those 2, but 3F is no longer made, and anyway I'm not sure it would work well with my Ether C Flows. What put you off the Phonitor? And I'm still a bit infatuated with 6SN7-based gear


Doug is making 2 batches.  One right now, and he will be taking orders for batch 2 in April / May, I think he said.  you can still contact him through his website (which hasn't been updated in a long time).  http://www.ecpaudio.com

I have no idea how they would sound with planar HPs, to be honest.   The DSHA-3f is a derivative of the DSHA-3 design, the difference being the 3F was made specifically for the Focal headphone line.   Slight change to the circuit, but it is a stellar sound.

You can order it with an amorphous core transformer, or a nickel core transformer, the former has a cleaner sound, the latter is a little warmer.   

Again, very sorry for off topic post.   He doesn't have a product thread here that I've found, but you can find discussions about it if you Google "3F Ravenswood".


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 8, 2019)

bcowen said:


> A *PASSIONATE* Queen? Ok. Whatever.






*Bow before royalty, you insolent peasant!! *


----------



## Scrith

What if everyone in this thread chipped in?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...155462?hash=item4b5e086446:g:jHgAAOSwLeFcP7s-


----------



## mvn1

Scrith said:


> What if everyone in this thread chipped in?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pa...155462?hash=item4b5e086446:g:jHgAAOSwLeFcP7s-



Can they really be that good?? It looks identical to the CBS/RCA 5692’s. I’d be interested to know incrementally the differences between the two!


----------



## tafens (Mar 9, 2019)

mvn1 said:


> Can they really be that good?? It looks identical to the CBS/RCA 5692’s. I’d be interested to know incrementally the differences between the two!



According to Swedish authority on the subject - that is, the people involved in making them, Swedish tubes actually weren’t very good.. as I understand, they were made as equivalents or “copies” of some American 6SN7 types (RCA is mentioned) and were made to have extra long life (10000 hrs) and extra sturdy to withstand being near the cannons they were meant to control.

However, the overall quality was lacking, and according to this thread (http://www.hififorum.nu/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=59746) Ingvar Lund at the Swedish radio museum in Gothenburg apparently once mentioned that they at least had one redeeming quality, and that was that they could be very useful in the Swedish winter; if it was icy and slippery outside, grab a few tubes, toss them in the ground and step on them. Kick around the broken glass and you don’t have to worry about slipping any more! 

In short, they are not worth the asking price 
(unless you really REALLY want to own one of those tubes of course, they are pretty rare after all)

More info:
http://www.veteranklubbenalfa.se/veteran/09q2/090611.htm
http://www.sm7ucz.se/Kanongrej/Kanongrej.htm

(all links in Swedish btw, but google translate should be helpful) Edit: added emojis lost in transfer


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

tafens said:


> extra sturdy to withstand being near the *cannons they were meant to control*


hmmm... maybe perfect fit for my bass cannons?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Could be!  Let us know how they sound after you get them.


When I decide to sell my left kidney - not gonna use the money for 1 pair of tubes!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> Appears the price is based on scarcity rather than sonic quality.



Probably. I haven’t heard heard them though, but what does one say after blowing $4000 on a pair of tubes? “Yea, sounds like crap..?” 

Oh, and as a bonus, they’re going to last for 10000 hours, too


----------



## attmci (Mar 9, 2019)

Zachik said:


> When I decide to sell my left kidney - not gonna use the money for 1 pair of tubes!


please contact @Watagump. We pay top $! Are you healthy?


Someone 500 lb, 5"3' claims he is very healthy, but we cannot help.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 9, 2019)

Oooops.  Wrong post.


----------



## Zachik

attmci said:


> please contact @Watagump. We pay top $! Are you healthy?
> 
> 
> Someone 500 lb, 5"3' claims he is very healthy, but we cannot help.


Judging by @Watagump posts on the CanJam NYC thread on the so-called-candy (twizzlers... ) that he was bringing with him, I seriously doubt he can afford to pay anything for a healthy kidney... 
Think I will hang to my backup kidney after all


----------



## Rowethren

What a joke... So I spoke to Paypal and they refused my claim saying that it was a warranty issue not a miss selling issue so it wasn't covered by buyers protection. RIP $140!


----------



## ilikepooters

Rowethren said:


> What a joke... So I spoke to Paypal and they refused my claim saying that it was a warranty issue not a miss selling issue so it wasn't covered by buyers protection. RIP $140!



Name and shame so we can blacklist this seller.


----------



## m17xr2b

The tubes failed after a while, there's no shaming needed, these things happen and if anyone wants warranty buy new tubes only. NOS is always a risk and if it's not DOA you can't fault the seller IMO.


----------



## kiwivda

Finally my Lyr3 went back from RMA and I'm testing this one. By now ir really revealing, separation is great, and bass is physical enough!


----------



## tafens

kiwivda said:


> Finally my Lyr3 went back from RMA and I'm testing this one. By now ir really revealing, separation is great, and bass is physical enough!



Lyr looks great with that tube 
Shuguang Treasure Globe?

Do you also have the Russian new-production Tung-Sol? How does it compare? I think the bass and detail is great with that one already, and if it is even better with the globe I really need it want to try it


----------



## FLTWS

kiwivda said:


> Finally my Lyr3 went back from RMA and I'm testing this one. By now ir really revealing, separation is great, and bass is physical enough!



That may possibly be my favorite of over 2 dozen 6SN7's I have. But, just got a 1578 Melz 05/86 today in the mail, got it heating upstairs as I write this.


----------



## kiwivda (Mar 12, 2019)

Yes I Have the Tung Sol too and to my ears this one is better.


----------



## Rowethren

m17xr2b said:


> The tubes failed after a while, there's no shaming needed, these things happen and if anyone wants warranty buy new tubes only. NOS is always a risk and if it's not DOA you can't fault the seller IMO.



I would have agreed with you if it had been 1 tube that had failed very early but the fact that both of them died way short of their rated new specification (50 hours for the first and 5 hours for the second) when they are supposedly NOS reeks of schiit to me...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Shameless plug... but i need to get around to ebaying my B&K606 tester @Rowethren 

Won't tell you a whole deal other than if a tube is good or bad, but it's useful in that regard.

I'll let the thread know when it's up.


----------



## Scrith

Bride of Frankentube?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-new-tube...288596&hash=item5922aa0ac4:g:qL0AAOSwDXxcgjny

Not sure if they can be adapted to a Lyr 3, but they look interesting.


----------



## Rowethren

bcowen said:


> Time to buy a tube tester.





ilikepooters said:


> Shameless plug... but i need to get around to ebaying my B&K606 tester @Rowethren
> 
> Won't tell you a whole deal other than if a tube is good or bad, but it's useful in that regard.
> 
> I'll let the thread know when it's up.



I honestly don't think I am that committed to the cause to get a tube tester. I will just buy from trusted stores going forward, real shame as I have never had a problem with eBay purchases until now. I guess it was inevitable at some point...


----------



## 441879 (Mar 15, 2019)

New tube arrived today. Just plugged it in. With no hours on it it’s a little bright on top, which probably means it’s making some high frequency distortion. Experience with other tubes suggests it will smooth out in 20-50 hrs

-Took a lot less than 20 hours. This tube is amazing! Very holographic imaging. Crystal clear


----------



## Rowethren

For new production tubes what would you all recommend to get the slamming bass of a 3 hole Bad Boy?


----------



## Wes S (Mar 15, 2019)




----------



## Wes S (Mar 15, 2019)

Wes S said:


>


Burning in this amazing Brimar/STC CV1988 tube, and so far it is really nice.  The sound is huge, clear, clean and warm at the same time.  I will report back, after more burn in, but it looks like this tube, might dethrone my beloved Sylvania Bad Boy.


----------



## Odin412

will f said:


> New tube arrived today. Just plugged it in. With no hours on it it’s a little bright on top, which probably means it’s making some high frequency distortion. Experience with other tubes suggests it will smooth out in 20-50 hrs
> 
> -Took a lot less than 20 hours. This tube is amazing! Very holographic imaging. Crystal clear



I use this tube with my Saga preamp and to my ears it's the best tube that I've used, even when comparing to a largish assortment of vintage tubes.


----------



## 441879 (Mar 15, 2019)

Odin412 said:


> I use this tube with my Saga preamp and to my ears it's the best tube that I've used, even when comparing to a largish assortment of vintage tubes.



Definitely my favorite tube at the moment. Neutral to slightly warm, very clean and detailed sound, good dynamics, superb imaging. It works extremely well with my Elex. I’ll spend some time listening with my Aeons this evening to see how they do.


----------



## Wes S

will f said:


> Definitely my favorite tube at the moment. Neutral to slightly warm, very clean and detailed sound, good dynamics, superb imaging. It works extremely well with my Elex. I’ll spend some time listening with my Aeons this evening to see how they do.


What other tubes have you tried?  That would be really cool, if a new production tube can hang with Sylvania Bad Boy, Brimar CV1988, and Westinghouse D getter.  Have you tried any of those 3 tubes?


----------



## RJ58 (Mar 15, 2019)

will f said:


> Definitely my favorite tube at the moment. Neutral to slightly warm, very clean and detailed sound, good dynamics, superb imaging. It works extremely well with my Elex. I’ll spend some time listening with my Aeons this evening to see how they do.



Also curious what other tubes have you used (particularly wondering if you have heard the Psvane UK 6SN7)? I recently got an Elex, and am burning in a Psvane UK 6SN7 (which as of now I like more than both stock tubes) right now in my Lyr 3.


----------



## attmci

Rowethren said:


> I honestly don't think I am that committed to the cause to get a tube tester. I will just buy from trusted stores going forward, real shame as I have never had a problem with eBay purchases until now. I guess it was inevitable at some point...


Lesson learned. The tube can be tested good when you receive it. You should use it extensively in the next few days to perform a stress study.


----------



## 441879 (Mar 15, 2019)

Wes S said:


> What other tubes have you tried?  That would be really cool, if a new production tube can hang with Sylvania Bad Boy, Brimar CV1988, and Westinghouse D getter.  Have you tried any of those 3 tubes?



The two Schiit tubes, a 1950s Tung Sol, Sylvania 2 hole bad boy, and a couple forgettable GE tubes from the late 50s. Of the collection, the Bad boy is comparable to the Psvane with more slam and dynamics, excellent if not quite as good imaging, less clarity. 

The Psvane has Impressive detail and clarity with my Elex- so far the only headphone I’ve tried the Psvane with. The Elex falls behind the Aeons on clarity but ahead on dynamics so I’m looking forward to some comparative exploration this evening. It may turn out with the Aeons the Bad boy’s more dynamic signature will win out.

I’ve been comparing on this track. Tidal has it as a master recording and well worth a listen if you like the Allman Bros.

https://tidal.com/track/79421831


----------



## Wes S

will f said:


> The two Schiit tubes, a 1950s Tung Sol, Sylvania 2 hole bad boy, and a couple forgettable RCAs from the late 50s. Of the collection, the Bad boy is comparable to the Psvane with more slam and dynamics, excellent if not quite as good imaging, less clarity.
> 
> The Psvane has Impressive detail and clarity with my Elex- so far the only headphone I’ve tried the Psvane with. The Elex falls behind the Aeons on clarity but ahead on dynamics so I’m looking forward to some comparative exploration this evening. It may turn out with the Aeons the Bad boy’s more dynamic signature will win out.


cool.  Thanks for the info.  Just to clarify, there is no 2 hole "Bad Boy".


----------



## 441879 (Mar 15, 2019)

Wes S said:


> cool.  Thanks for the info.  Just to clarify, there is no 2 hole "Bad Boy".



Not everyone agrees. If you check out Jesse James’s site, he feels they sound identical to the 3 hole. I’ve never heard the three hole so I don’t personally know.

http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm

Here’s what I said about the tube when I originally got it, though after a few hundred hours I’d say the slam has increased from my original assessment.

My impressions of the Sylvania 1952 6SN7GT “Bad Boy” (Two hole version):

So I bought this tube from Brent Jesse at Audiotubes.com. Not exactly cheap, but it has a reputation for clarity which is probably why I bought it. I say “probably” because I’m not sure I bought it for the right reasons. The staging is phenomenal. Add clear and nicely sweet treble, solid, textured mids, and very articulate upper bass and you have a fantastic tube. When coupled with a decently resolving pair of phones, a good recording can sweep you away into a beautiful, hyper real world, There’s a catch though: recording problems show up loud and clear. I’m not talking about subtle errors like compressed dynamic range or AD conversion errors. I’m talking things like crappy miking, poor room acoustics, etc. it doesn’t happen on most of my music, but it happens quite a bit more often than I would expect having heard the songs multiple times and never been bothered.

I guess I’m now beginning to understand why clarity may not always be a plus. Not say I don’t love this tube- It’s a truly great tube. It’s just that if you have a very detailed, resolving amp hooked up to a pair of very detailed resolving headphones, a very detailed resolving tube might occasionally be too much of a good thing. Anyway, specific headphone comments:

Aeon Flow Closed (AFC): This headphone, despite being closed, shows the Bad Boy’s strengths. Specifically, the sound is neutral, clean, detailed, and balanced. There’s plenty of sparkle but no harshness and doesn’t feel bright. The super detailed slightly forward mids are nicely complemented by a wide and deep soundstage that does well with live recordings, giving them great realism. The upper bass is tight, but polite. A great combo for well recorded live music. Impact and slam are good but not noteworthy. Personally I like a little more tube sound with this headphone, but with a good recording, this is nirvana.

Hifiman HE-400i: The open nature of these phones work very well with the Bad Boy. Instrument and musician placement is solidly nailed down. The sound profile for the Hifiman isn’t as real sounding as the AFC’s,but clarity is as good as I’ve ever heard these cans sound. Not as clear as the AFC’s but in this case that might actually not be so bad as they seem more tolerant of bad recordings, have a better soundstage, and more present bass with a little more slam.

In summary: the 1952 Sylvania 6SN7 GT is a fantastic tube if you want tons of clarity, balance, soundstage, and detail. It’s not very tubey though so look elsewhere for warm and gooey.


----------



## attmci

will f said:


> Not everyone agrees. If you check out Jesse James’s site, he feels they sound identical to the 3 hole. I’ve never heard the three hole so I don’t personally know.
> 
> http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm
> 
> ...


If Brent think the 2-hole is identical to 3-hole, could you ask him to replace yours with 3-hole BB?

Thanks for your efforts.


----------



## tafens

will f said:


> New tube arrived today. Just plugged it in. With no hours on it it’s a little bright on top, which probably means it’s making some high frequency distortion. Experience with other tubes suggests it will smooth out in 20-50 hrs
> 
> -Took a lot less than 20 hours. This tube is amazing! Very holographic imaging. Crystal clear



I’ve had my eyes on that one for a while.. how does it sound as compared to the stock Tung-Sol?


----------



## 441879 (Mar 15, 2019)

attmci said:


> If Brent think the 2-hole is identical to 3-hole, could you ask him to replace yours with 3-hole BB?
> 
> Thanks for your efforts.


 I don’t think he would- the 3 hole is more in demand and priced accordingly . That’s pretty much why I posted my impressions. If it doesn’t match your experience with the 3 hole, then there may be a difference (though my impressions are subjective).


----------



## 441879

tafens said:


> I’ve had my eyes on that one for a while.. how does it sound as compared to the stock Tung-Sol?



Good question- It’s the weekend almost so I’ll spend some time comparing tonight and give you my opinion either Saturday or Sunday.


----------



## attmci

will f said:


> I don’t think he would- the 3 hole is more in demand and priced accordingly . That’s pretty much why I posted my impressions. If it doesn’t match your experience with the 3 hole, then there may be a difference (though my impressions are subjective).


"2-hole BB" is good, "3-hole" is better for sure. I have both.


----------



## 441879 (Mar 16, 2019)

This is a comparison of the Psvane CV181-TII



 and the Russian made Tung Sol Schiit provides as an option with the Lyr 3.




It’s not exactly a fair competition since the Psvane is 4x more expensive and is a total premium product compared to the much more mainstream Tung Sol. Nevertheless, the Tung Sol is a great tube for the money. Here’s what I said about the Tung Sol last year:


The highs are clean and smooth. Great detail and resolution. Lows are meaty like a Prime steak. Upper bass is like a warm soft blanket on a cold night. Not as neutral sounding as the Russian NOS. More tubey with a very polished and smooth character. Basically a great big euphonic sound. Makes both my 400i and AFC sound gorgeous. I suspect it makes any headphone sound great as long as it can handle the upper bass without bloat. Holographic soundstage makes you feel like you’re standing in the audience. Dynamics are energetic but not overpowering on my phones.


Not too bad eh? Anyway, I’ll be comparing these two tubes with two headphones: My trusty Mr Speakers Aeon Flow Closed Phones (AFC) and my Focal Elex (Elex).


For those that haven’t heard AFCs, they are a great match to the Lyr. Being power hungry, they require a strong amp to sound their best, but when you give them what they want they reward you with deep, rich bass, amazing detail, and a sweet, mostly neutral sound.


The Elex doesn’t need the power of the Lyr but it certainly doesn’t hurt. I put fenestrated sheepskin pads on, which ups the slam and reduces fatigue. I love this headphone because of its dynamic sound and excellent imaging. It’s fairly neutral but a little mid forward (in my experience). It’s not as detailed as the Aeons but the realism is higher. The Aeons are a little like taking a microscope to your music. These bring you into the studio or concert and are awesome for live recordings.


Psvane with the Elex:

Great clarity. The upper mids and treble are crisp without sounding distorted or fuzzy. Overall very smooth and detailed. The bass is tight with no bloat or distortion. Slam and dynamics are great, but that’s pretty much to be expected with the Elex. Imaging is holographic- it’s easy to imagine you’re sitting in the audience. Upper mids sound a little forward.


Tung-Sol with the Elex:

The Tung Sol is actually a great sounding tube and with this headphone, it gives up less than one would expect based on the price difference. It’s a little more dynamic and a little looser sounding in upper bass, a little harsher sounding in the lower treble and the upper treble is a little fuzzy with less sparkle and it’s slightly fatiguing. That said, the differences are small. If I only had this tube and the Elex I would be quite happy with the combination.


The Psvane with the AFC:

First off, the Psvane works exceptionally well with the Aeons. Detail & clarity is as good as I’ve ever heard. Treble is outstanding- The Aeons have a sweet airy treble which combines well with the low fatigue and smooth yet detailed Psvane.  The Aeons are slightly recessed in the mids which the Psvane balances nicely by being a little mid forward.  The great imaging of the Psvane enhances Aeon soundstage nicely. Overall the combination sounds like I spent $1000 more for the headphones than I did.


Tung Sol with the AFC:

The Tung Sol is dynamic and sounds great thanks to the Aeons taking away the little bit of fatigue I felt with the Elex. However, The Tung Sol isn’t able to capitalize on the Aeons ability to deliver detail, the upper bass is not quite as tight. The treble is drier, the middle is softer, and the sound is muddier. It doesn’t elevate the Aeons like the Psvane.


Overall:

The Psvane definitely beats the Tung Sol, but it requires a pretty detailed set of headphones to really appreciate how much more it can deliver. Dynamics aren’t it’s specialty, but it delivers them solid and clean and without distortion or bloat. Imaging is definitely a strength. None of my headphones are on the level of An HD 800 so I don’t know how far the Imaging can go, but at least with the Elex (the better imaging of the two phones) It’s superb. Easily the best I’ve heard.


----------



## 441879

attmci said:


> "2-hole BB" is good, "3-hole" is better for sure. I have both.



The last thing I need is another tube so I won’t ask what the differences are. Some things I’m better off not knowing.


----------



## attmci

will f said:


> The last thing I need is another tube so I won’t ask what the differences are. Some things I’m better off not knowing.


This could be a rebranded BB if you wanna to give it a try. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Crosley-br...047835?hash=item3d857514db:g:v6sAAOSwAvNcetiO


----------



## ilikepooters

will f said:


> The last thing I need is another tube so I won’t ask what the differences are. Some things I’m better off not knowing.




I'm in the same boat, think i've finished tube rolling for now, at least that's what my wallet is telling me


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## quimbo

will f said:


> New tube arrived today. Just plugged it in. With no hours on it it’s a little bright on top, which probably means it’s making some high frequency distortion. Experience with other tubes suggests it will smooth out in 20-50 hrs
> 
> -Took a lot less than 20 hours. This tube is amazing! Very holographic imaging. Crystal clear


I picked one up about a month ago and had the same experiences.


----------



## FLTWS

I've found all 3 Psvanes (from Grant Fidelity) to be excellent.


----------



## earnmyturns

Rowethren said:


> For new production tubes what would you all recommend to get the slamming bass of a 3 hole Bad Boy?


I'm very happy with the bass from the new Psvane tupes I own: 6SN7-SE and 6SN7-UK.


----------



## Rowethren

earnmyturns said:


> I'm very happy with the bass from the new Psvane tupes I own: 6SN7-SE and 6SN7-UK.



Damn I should hope the SE are amazing if they are $375... The UK seem a much more reasonable price. Out of interest due to their size do you have to use a riser for them to fit or is that just out of preference?


----------



## FLTWS

I put mine on a socket saver/lifter just to help air circulate better / run cooler. I think you can go direct but if I remember with mine and with some other tubes of other than the straight sided glass type, the hole in the top and the socket below were just slightly off of dead centers and not completely parallel with each other so the wide Treasure Globe SE bulb would rub the side of the hole a bit as I gently rocked it to remove it, no issue with straight in inserts.

The other side of the saver / lifter story is the more points of connection, the more opportunity to have a loss of connectivity. That was my position  when I first got into Schiit, but over time I had no connectivity issues and if heat is the enemy of tube life (and light bulbs too as I understand it) anything that helps it dissipate heat is a good thing (and the case is a little cooler to the touch as well).

I use  saver / lifters on my LYR3, Valhalla 2, and Mjolnir 2 without issue. The cost of a saver / lifter is negligible compared to the cost of the some of the tubes themselves.


----------



## Rowethren

FLTWS said:


> I put mine on a socket saver/lifter just to help air circulate better / run cooler. I think you can go direct but if I remember with mine and with some other tubes of other than the straight sided glass type, the hole in the top and the socket below were just slightly off of dead centers and not completely parallel with each other so the wide Treasure Globe SE bulb would rub the side of the hole a bit as I gently rocked it to remove it, no issue with straight in inserts.
> 
> The other side of the saver / lifter story is the more points of connection, the more opportunity to have a loss of connectivity. That was my position  when I first got into Schiit, but over time I had no connectivity issues and if heat is the enemy of tube life (and light bulbs too as I understand it) anything that helps it dissipate heat is a good thing (and the case is a little cooler to the touch as well).
> 
> I use  saver / lifters on my LYR3, Valhalla 2, and Mjolnir 2 without issue. The cost of a saver / lifter is negligible compared to the cost of the some of the tubes themselves.



Thanks for the advice. I do use savers with my Mjolnir 2 and it makes life a lot easier when it comes to taking the tubes in and out but with the bigger tubes they look a bit odd when they stick out so far IMO. If as you say the larger tubes are that close to the sides of the hole I think a saver is probably a good idea though as I wouldn't want to scape them against the aluminium top plat lol... Any recommendations on savers?

How would you compare the SE to the UK sound wise?


----------



## earnmyturns

Rowethren said:


> Damn I should hope the SE are amazing if they are $375... The UK seem a much more reasonable price. Out of interest due to their size do you have to use a riser for them to fit or is that just out of preference?


That's for a pair of grade A tubes, a single grade A is $200. Still a lot, I agree.


----------



## FLTWS (Mar 17, 2019)

I prefer the SE by a bit of a margin and bought just 1 not a matched pair like I did with the UK and TII. You can go with the UK (or TII) and wonder going forward or just start with the SE and never look back. But only your ears can be the judge and as with so much of the gear we have interest in, there's no way to evaluate it in advance of purchase so it's always a crap-shoot. But the Psvanes were all purchased by me thru Grant Fidelity who, claim to hand pick 50% of the best of a run and give a 90 day limited warranty. So these are NNS not NOS. Getting into NOS is a whole nother' thing! Trust me , I know.

*I have 2 variety of saver/lifter for the 6SN7 type;*





*AND THIS FROM TUBEMONGER*


----------



## earnmyturns

FLTWS said:


> I prefer the SE by a bit of a margin and bought just 1 not a matched pair like I did with the UK and TII. You can go with the UK (or TII) and wonder going forward or just start with the SE and never look back. But only your ears can be the judge and as with so much of the gear we have interest in, there's no way to evaluate it in advance of purchase so it's always a crap-shoot.


Just listening to Lyr 3 + 6SN7-UK again. It is really good, but relative to the 6SN7-SE, bass is a bit fuzzier and less impactful, and it has a slight hint of glare in the medium-high range. This is from memory, as I don't like to keep rolling tubes constantly, so YMMV.


----------



## FLTWS (Mar 17, 2019)

earnmyturns said:


> Just listening to Lyr 3 + 6SN7-UK again. It is really good, but relative to the 6SN7-SE, bass is a bit fuzzier and less impactful, and it has a slight hint of glare in the medium-high range. This is from memory, as I don't like to keep rolling tubes constantly, so YMMV.



That's the way I remember as well, but currently using a new NOS find. The TII was a little better and fit sound-wise in between the UK and SE. One of those rare instances where price vs performance actually aligned pretty much with what I heard, although why they should sound different is always beyond my understanding, I' mean they are all 6SN7 type. But they do sound different.


----------



## 441879 (Mar 17, 2019)

attmci said:


> This could be a rebranded BB if you wanna to give it a try.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Crosley-br...047835?hash=item3d857514db:g:v6sAAOSwAvNcetiO



I am starting to feel about tubes the way I do about wine: I appreciate the difference in bouquet, mouth feel, and notes of cherry and blackberry, but at the end of the day, I pretty much drink anything that doesn’t taste like a wine cooler or vinegar.


----------



## Zachik

will f said:


> I am starting to feel about tubes the way I do about wine: I appreciate the difference in bouquet, mouth feel, and notes of cherry and blackberry, but at the end of the day, I pretty much drink anything that doesn’t taste like a wine cooler or vinegar.


WOW - could not have said it better myself. I am totally in agreement with you - I am lately tube rolling on the LP (so it took my attention from Lyr 3 for the most part), and I am feeling my brain is saturated to the point that any tube that does not suck, sounds almost the same


----------



## George Chronis

Hi all,

I just bought a Lyr 3 (and Bimby to go with it) as well as a Psvane SE. I want to try a Sylvania “bad boy” but I’m not very good at judging NOS tubes. Can someone tell me if this looks legit:


----------



## Wes S (Mar 20, 2019)

George Chronis said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I just bought a Lyr 3 (and Bimby to go with it) as well as a Psvane SE. I want to try a Sylvania “bad boy” but I’m not very good at judging NOS tubes. Can someone tell me if this looks legit:


Looks legit.  A real Bad Boy, and the only kind of Bad Boy.  1951-1953, *3 hole*, bottom getter, flashing a 1/3 the way up, from bottom,  3 spikes on top mica touching glass, copper grid post. . .


----------



## Wes S

Well, it is official, the STC/Brimar black glass, brown base CV1988, has dethroned my beloved Sylvania 1952, 3 hole, bottom getter "Bad Boy". What an amazing tube!  My lyr 3 gets as much if not, more head time, than my Liquid Platinum, now that i put the Brimar in there.  I am running Brimar in my Liquid Platinun, as well.  Brimar tubes freakin rock!


----------



## attmci

Wes S said:


> Well, it is official, the STC/Brimar black glass, brown base CV1988, has dethroned my beloved Sylvania 1952, 3 hole, bottom getter "Bad Boy". What an amazing tube!  My lyr 3 gets as much if not, more head time, than my Liquid Platinum, now that i put the Brimar in there.  I am running Brimar in my Liquid Platinun, as well.  Brimar tubes freakin rock!


It sounds about right according to the current market price. 

And your next step is a ECCXX.


----------



## Wes S

attmci said:


> It sounds about right according to the current market price.
> 
> And your next step is a ECCXX.


The market prices don't lie.  This tube is worth every penny.  However, I got a really good deal on mine, and could not afford those really high prices.  I big shout out to forum member rosgr63, for hooking me up with this tube!


----------



## Scrith

I've said it before, but just adding to the current discussion about the Mullard ECC33...this tube is amazing!  I've been listening to all sorts of tubes this week at work (RCA red base 5692, KenRad JAN-CKR, Sylvania 3-hole Bad boy), but after popping in the Mullard this morning I'm hearing new things that sound quite good.  Just an amazing clarity and, importantly, warmth and texture (especially acoustic guitar) that I just didn't hear this week with the others.  Tomorrow I'll try my current #1 to see how it stacks up after not hearing it for a week or two (Marconi B65 made in Holland).


----------



## Wes S (Mar 29, 2019)

Scrith said:


> I've said it before, but just adding to the current discussion about the Mullard ECC33...this tube is amazing!  I've been listening to all sorts of tubes this week at work (RCA red base 5692, KenRad JAN-CKR, Sylvania 3-hole Bad boy), but after popping in the Mullard this morning I'm hearing new things that sound quite good.  Just an amazing clarity and, importantly, warmth and texture (especially acoustic guitar) that I just didn't hear this week with the others.  Tomorrow I'll try my current #1 to see how it stacks up after not hearing it for a week or two (Marconi B65 made in Holland).


Interesting . . . I did not know you could put an ECC33 in the Lyr 3?  That is not a direct 6sn7 replacement.  I have read they have a higher gain, and this attributes to the different sound.  Is this true?


----------



## attmci (Mar 29, 2019)

Wes S said:


> Interesting . . . I did not know you could put an ECC33 in the Lyr 3?  That is not a direct 6sn7 replacement.  I have read they have a higher gain, and this attributes to the different sound.  Is this true?


ECC35 has higher gain than ECC33. You can use ECC33 in Crack and Lyr 3. But you may not want to use a ECC35 in the Crack.

I believe they both need 0.4 A.


----------



## Wes S

Cool.  If I ever decide my STC black glass, is not cutting it, I will give the ECC33 a try.  However, a listening session this morning confirmed it is not going anywhere anytime soon.


----------



## Wes S

Scrith said:


> I've said it before, but just adding to the current discussion about the Mullard ECC33...this tube is amazing!  I've been listening to all sorts of tubes this week at work (RCA red base 5692, KenRad JAN-CKR, Sylvania 3-hole Bad boy), but after popping in the Mullard this morning I'm hearing new things that sound quite good.  Just an amazing clarity and, importantly, warmth and texture (especially acoustic guitar) that I just didn't hear this week with the others.  Tomorrow I'll try my current #1 to see how it stacks up after not hearing it for a week or two (Marconi B65 made in Holland).


How is the bass of the ECC33 compared to 3 hole bad boy and CV1988?


----------



## Wes S (Mar 29, 2019)

My tube rankings

1.  STC/Brimar CV1988 black glass, brown base - Huge and wide sound, deep and tight bass, great high end extension and clarity througout, with a warm natural tone, and smooth but resolving mids.
2.  Sylvania 1952 3 hole bottom getter copper grid post "The only Bad Boy" - Just a tad bit behind the STC/Brimar, in everything.
3.  Westinghouse D getter - Neutral and clear.

I was going to sell my Lyr 3, until I rolled the STC/Brimar in there.  Now it gets more head time, than my Liquid Platinum, at the moment, but I am sure that will change when I get my Aeolus, but we shall see. . .

The Lyr 3 is a really good amp, and for the money is amazing!


----------



## Scrith

Wes S said:


> Interesting . . . I did not know you could put an ECC33 in the Lyr 3?  That is not a direct 6sn7 replacement.  I have read they have a higher gain, and this attributes to the different sound.  Is this true?



My understanding is that the ECC33 is a very close match to 6SN7 and can be used safely in a Lyr 3 (I've run quite a few for quite awhile in mine).

The ECC32 (probably best known for the Mullard coke-bottle shaped tube) has different electrical characteristics (somebody here can elaborate I'm sure) that make it a bit risky to use in a Lyr 3.  That being said, I've used a couple in my Lyr 3 (the Mullard coke-bottle one and a Cossor ECC33) without any problems.


----------



## ilikepooters (Mar 29, 2019)

Scrith said:


> My understanding is that the ECC33 is a very close match to 6SN7 and can be used safely in a Lyr 3 (I've run quite a few for quite awhile in mine).
> 
> The ECC32 (probably best known for the Mullard coke-bottle shaped tube) has different electrical characteristics (somebody here can elaborate I'm sure) that make it a bit risky to use in a Lyr 3.  That being said, I've used a couple in my Lyr 3 (the Mullard coke-bottle one and a Cossor ECC33) without any problems.




ECC32 draws 0.95A of heater current, pretty much a third more than a 6SN7, so you risk blowing a transformer using this tube, it's impossible to know how much headroom Schiit spec'd into their transformers.

Also ECC32 is pretty much double the plate resistance and almost double the transconductance which is hard to ignore. Also mu (amplification factor) is 32 vs 20 for 6SN7

But if it sounds great and there's no magic smoke then none of that really matters


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Um, not to nitpick or anything, but magic smoke is a _good_ thing.


Wrong smoke dude.


----------



## Scrith (Mar 29, 2019)

How did you guys know that I keep my weed in it?  So which strains make the Lyr 3 sound best?  Should we start a Lyr 3 joint rolling thread?


----------



## Zachik

ProfFalkin said:


> Wrong smoke dude.


Here, in California - hard to tell...


----------



## tafens

Scrith said:


> My understanding is that the ECC33 is a very close match to 6SN7 and can be used safely in a Lyr 3 (I've run quite a few for quite awhile in mine).
> 
> The ECC32 (probably best known for the Mullard coke-bottle shaped tube) has different electrical characteristics (somebody here can elaborate I'm sure) that make it a bit risky to use in a Lyr 3.  That being said, I've used a couple in my Lyr 3 (the Mullard coke-bottle one and a Cossor ECC33) without any problems.



The ECC32 uses 0.95 amps of heater current (regular 6SN7 uses 0.6 amps, so just over 50% more). Seems a bit risky as the Lyr3 is built for 6SN7 standard, but nice to know that it seems able to handle it 

The ECC33 on the other hand, uses only 0.4 amps so it certainly is safe to use and might even have the Lyr3 running a bit cooler than usual 

ECC33: https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ecc33.html
ECC32: https://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ecc32.html


----------



## attmci

tafens said:


> The ECC32 uses 0.95 amps of heater current (regular 6SN7 uses 0.6 amps, so just over 50% more). Seems a bit risky as the Lyr3 is built for 6SN7 standard, but nice to know that it seems able to handle it
> 
> The ECC33 on the other hand, uses only 0.4 amps so it certainly is safe to use and might even have the Lyr3 running a bit cooler than usual
> 
> ...


You'd better contact Shiit Audio before use it. Ask them what's the heat current the amp can handle. It may not kill your transformer immdiately, but who knows in the long run.


----------



## Wes S

attmci said:


> You'd better contact Shiit Audio before use it. Ask them what's the heat current the amp can handle. It may not kill your transformer immdiately, but who knows in the long run.


Schiit only gives short answers and says use only 6SN7.  I would love to know for sure, and until then only the 6SN7 goes in my amp.


----------



## attmci

Keep it cool. 

*SchiitHead*
Friend
Variance in operating temperature will be dramatically affected by room temperature, ventilation, whether or not the product is sitting on top of another one, whether or not a card is installed, and, most of all, subjective perception. What I consider "warm," most people will think is painful. Best to use a FLIR or IR thermometer when in doubt.

Lyr will run 15-20 degrees C above ambient, depending on how the air is moving, humidity, etc. With a card, maybe 2-5 degrees C more. All bets are off if it's sitting on top of an already warm surface (hot plate, different component, computer, etc.)


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## tafens

attmci said:


> Lyr will run 15-20 degrees C above ambient, depending on how the air is moving, humidity, etc. With a card, maybe 2-5 degrees C more. All bets are off if it's sitting on top of an already warm surface (hot plate, different component, computer, etc.)



For fun, I measured various points on the Lyr3 using multimeter with a small contact temperature sensor. Ambient temperature here is about 23°C, and the Lyr is just above 40°C on top, just over 50°C on the bottom, and the tube varies up to just under 70°C on its hottest spot near the top. No other hot surfaces/equipment nearby.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> I used an infrared thermometer a while back on a 211 tube (as pictured above) and got 251C.  That's 485F to us 'Mericans.



That happens to be around the ideal temperature for cooking a steak, coincidence?


----------



## earnmyturns

Back to old tube bliss? Bought A Reliatron D-getter from @ProfFalkin when he retired from 6SN7 duties. Swapped it into my Lyr 3 in place of the Psvane 6SN7-UK I had there. Finding that it makes the Lyr 3 just enough warmer and smoother to bring out more the more melodic jazz and classical works I've been listening to this weekend. My other amp, the Apex Peak with Psvane 6SN7-SE, has still wider and deeper stage, but the tone of Lyr3 + D-getter is lovely.


----------



## earnmyturns

earnmyturns said:


> Back to old tube bliss? Bought A Reliatron D-getter from @ProfFalkin when he retired from 6SN7 duties. Swapped it into my Lyr 3 in place of the Psvane 6SN7-UK I had there. Finding that it makes the Lyr 3 just enough warmer and smoother to bring out more the more melodic jazz and classical works I've been listening to this weekend. My other amp, the Apex Peak with Psvane 6SN7-SE, has still wider and deeper stage, but the tone of Lyr3 + D-getter is lovely.


More impressions: the D-getter seems to my ears to make busy orchestral passages less muddled compared with other tubes I've used in the Lyr 3. Still far from my downstairs speaker system (see sig) but surprisingly clean nevertheless. You pay a price, though, sound stage is more 2D than with some other tubes, everything seems on a vertical plane right in front of my eyes (with MrSpeakers Ether C Flow 1.1 as always).


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## malenak (Apr 3, 2019)

Hmm, so the thread has more than 200 pages and I am really not able to read it all. So my question is. Is there any new tube production, where the tubes sounds great in Lyr3? I am new to tubes and little disoriented. I don`t want to buy 50 years old tubes if there is new production with great sonic qualities.

Just to mention, I am using Lyr3 with LCD-2C and I am listening to electronic music, indie pop/rock and movie soundtracks.


----------



## George Chronis

malenak said:


> Hmm, so the thread has more than 200 pages and I am really not able to read it all. So my question is. Is there any new tube production, where the tubes sounds great in Lyr3? I am new to tubes and little disoriented. I don`t want to buy 50 years old tubes if there is new production with great sonic qualities.
> 
> Just to mention, I am using Lyr3 with LCD-2C and I am listening to electronic music, indie pop/rock and movie soundtracks.



Psvane are new and have good reputation. A bit on the more expensive side, but the "UK" model is reasonable, alas only sold in pairs. Here:
http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/purchase/shop-by-tube-model/6sn7-aka-cv181/


----------



## tafens

malenak said:


> Hmm, so the thread has more than 200 pages and I am really not able to read it all. So my question is. Is there any new tube production, where the tubes sounds great in Lyr3? I am new to tubes and little disoriented. I don`t want to buy 50 years old tubes if there is new production with great sonic qualities.
> 
> Just to mention, I am using Lyr3 with LCD-2C and I am listening to electronic music, indie pop/rock and movie soundtracks.



The Russian new production Tung-Sol 6SN7 which is one of the stock options when ordering Lyr3 certainly is no slouch. I’m thoroughly enjoying it in my Lyr3 using HD6XX 

I’m interested in trying the other new production tubes out there as well, but I have only gotten as far as to the Psvane UK-6SN7. Compared to that one I actually prefer the Tung-Sol.

It might feel daunting to go through 200+ pages of posts, but I would recommend it. Not only for the tube tips but for the excellent and much entertaining humour supplied by people like @Ripper2860 @bcowen @ProfFalkin and others 

Oh, and welcome to head-fi (sorry about your wallet)


----------



## FLTWS

JJ Electronic and Sophia Electric are also making new 6SN7.


----------



## malenak

FLTWS said:


> JJ Electronic and Sophia Electric are also making new 6SN7.


Do you have (or someone) any experiences with JJ Electronic? It`s a Slovak manufacturer and I am from Slovakia, so I can get it easily. And it is also not very expensive...


----------



## tafens

George Chronis said:


> Psvane are new and have good reputation. A bit on the more expensive side, but the "UK" model is reasonable, alas only sold in pairs. Here:
> http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/purchase/shop-by-tube-model/6sn7-aka-cv181/



Psvane and Shuguang tubes are also available on eBay for a lesser price. I bought my UK for $47 (delivered, excluding import charges) from a seller called “psvanevalve”.


----------



## FLTWS

malenak said:


> Do you have (or someone) any experiences with JJ Electronic? It`s a Slovak manufacturer and I am from Slovakia, so I can get it easily. And it is also not very expensive...



I have not spent as much time with the JJ's or Sophia's as the Psvane's but neither are bad sounding and the JJ's are very low in price comparatively. I've also got their 12AU7's in my Rogue RH-5 and they are very good. And as previously mentioned the stock Tung's are not bad but one person's mountain can be another person's molehill.
The Sophia's seem to need a little longer break-in than the others with regards to the highs.
I purchased all my Psvanes (6SN7-UK, (faux) CV181 TII, and Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE  through;

http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/

The Sophia here;

https://sophiaelectric.com/

and JJ's here;

https://www.jj-electronic.com/en/

The JJ's should be very reasonable price-wise for you so if it's not to your liking no significant outlay of money is involved so I would try them first and in time you'll either get the itch to try another pricier brand or not.

Everybody would like a one a done answer/solution to every part of their signal chain from source to transducer, and those who succeed I call "non-audiophiles".
"Audiophiles" are, by my definition, always curious and questing. None of us hear the same, value the same sonic traits in the same way and to the same degree, or mutually agree on most things sound wise even if we think we do. And, to be a serious tube roller it is going to take your money, your time, and your ears to find your solution(s). It's not a rabbit hole, it's a Black Hole.


----------



## Wes S (Apr 3, 2019)

FLTWS said:


> I have not spent as much time with the JJ's or Sophia's as the Psvane's but neither are bad sounding and the JJ's are very low in price comparatively. I've also got their 12AU7's in my Rogue RH-5 and they are very good. And as previously mentioned the stock Tung's are not bad but one person's mountain can be another person's molehill.
> The Sophia's seem to need a little longer break-in than the others with regards to the highs.
> I purchased all my Psvanes (6SN7-UK, (faux) CV181 TII, and Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE  through;
> 
> ...


Well said!  For me, it is all about "trying to pace myself", with tubes.  I went crazy with my first tube amp, and still have a ton of tubes, collecting dust.  It takes weeks to get the feel for how a tube sounds, after burn in, so go slow, and have fun.  Ultimately you will find your flavor, and then the search for backups begins, and it never ends. . .


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

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## Wes S

bcowen said:


> And just as soon as that happens, you or @Ripper2860 or @tafens or @FLTWS will bust in excitedly with the NEW discovery and how it lays waste to all that preceded it. Supply on Ebay will instantly be sucked dry, dealers suffer DoS outages due to the unprecedented email traffic, BangyBang Tubes will quickly create a new silkscreen to label $0.39 Chinese tubes and sell as genuine, and what was once a $25 tube now goes for $250.  Same old, same old.


Sad but true.


----------



## Yviena

Just received my original Melz 1578, burning it in right now so will be exciting to see the final sound at 100 hours play-time, but the initial sound from them with my HD800 already sounds very good.
Unsure which tube i like best between MELZ/Psvane-UK but sound-stage wise atleast with my HD800/dac1541 sounds very close between the 2 tubes, maybe it'll change as the MELZ burns in.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

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## malenak

bcowen said:


> Why?


Haha, because I have my also work and personal life.


----------



## malenak

Aaand during the day I ordered JJ 6SN7. I am little afraid of that black hole...


----------



## tafens

malenak said:


> Hmm, so the thread has more than 200 pages and I am really not able to read it all.





bcowen said:


> Why?



Beats me - it’s a thoroughly enjoyable read. 

And the Lyr3 impressions thread as well:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lyr...m-schiit-impression-discussion-thread.875185/


----------



## Wes S

That Melz 1578, is the last tube on my want list.  Maybe someday, but the Brimars, should keep me happy for a while.  That is one heck of the tube to start


malenak said:


> Haha, because I have my also work and personal life.


As do the people, that took the time to post their impressions.


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## malenak (Apr 3, 2019)

tafens said:


> Beats me - it’s a thoroughly enjoyable read.
> 
> And the Lyr3 impressions thread as well:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lyr-3-the-new-coherence™-and-continuity™-hybrid-amplifier-from-schiit-impression-discussion-thread.875185/


Oh well... I`d rather read life enriching books. This reading will destroy my wallet. (Hmm, due to my audiophilia, it is already bleeding like crazy!)
I already spent thousands on my speaker rig. Then I realized, I want to have nice relationship with my neighbors, so during the one faithful night, I purchase my first planar Hifiman cans. And here we are, I already get some DACs, amps, HPs and now I purchase the devils machine which has the hole for the ****ing shiny bulbs on the top. My dear wallet, let`s have a talk...


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## Wes S (Apr 3, 2019)

malenak said:


> Oh well... I`d rather read life enriching books. This reading will destroy my wallet. (Hmm, due to my audiophilia, it is already bleeding like crazy!)
> I already spent thousands on my speaker rig. Then I realized, I want to have nice relationship with my neighbors, so during the one faithful night, I purchase my first planar Hifiman cans. And here we are, I already get some DACs, amps, HPs and now I purchase the devils machine which has the hole for the ****ing shiny bulbs on the top. My dear wallet, let`s have a talk...


I have unsubscribed from this thread 3 times already, and eventually come back, and boom there goes so more money.  If you dont want to spend money, it is wise to avoid this thread. . .Tube addiction, is real.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Wes S said:


> That Melz 1578, is the last tube on my want list.  Maybe someday, but the Brimars, should keep me happy for a while.  That is one heck of the tube to start
> 
> As do the people, that took the time to post their impressions.



I'm fortunate enough to have both Brimars and MELZ,

MELZ definitely worth having and is up there with the Brimars for SQ, but be prepared to get the soldering iron out because of bad solder joints in the pins.


----------



## Wes S

ilikepooters said:


> I'm fortunate enough to have both Brimars and MELZ,
> 
> MELZ definitely worth having and is up there with the Brimars for SQ, but be prepared to get the soldering iron out because of bad solder joints in the pins.


Thats enough to make me not want them anymore.  Thanks for that!


----------



## FLTWS

bcowen said:


> Ah, ok.  How fortunate that all those who put time and thought into those posts _don't _have work or a life. Perhaps one of them will take some more time and summarize everything for you so that you don't have to lift a finger....just won't be me.



LOL!


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Perhaps one of them will take some more time and summarize everything for you


Ohh!  Pick me!  I'll do it.   Ok, here goes...

All tubes sound different, and it's a crap shoot that any of them will match your preferences regardless of how much they have been subjectively reviewed, so get out there and try some in your system instead of leaning on others' to do the work for you.  

I really do mean that in the nicest way.


----------



## earnmyturns

ProfFalkin said:


> so get out there and try some in your system


No kidding. The Reliatron D-getter I bought from you (thanks again!) totally revived the Lyr 3 for me, after several months of neglect while I listened to my exotic Apex Peak+Psvane 6SN7-SE setup. There's something just magical in the Metrum Onyx>Lyr 3+D-getter>MrSpeakers Ether C Flow 1.1 chain for modern jazz that I can't quite put my finger on but keeps me hooked way too late in the evening. The only sad part is that the D-getter won't last forever and when it goes it will be very unlikely that D-getters are still available. 

For my music tastes and with this DAC, amp, and headphones, the D-getter beats the Psvane tubes (6SN7-SE and 6SN7-UK) and throws some shade on the Apex Peak setup. Impressive. But YMMV.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Wes S (Apr 4, 2019)

earnmyturns said:


> No kidding. The Reliatron D-getter I bought from you (thanks again!) totally revived the Lyr 3 for me, after several months of neglect while I listened to my exotic Apex Peak+Psvane 6SN7-SE setup. There's something just magical in the Metrum Onyx>Lyr 3+D-getter>MrSpeakers Ether C Flow 1.1 chain for modern jazz that I can't quite put my finger on but keeps me hooked way too late in the evening. The only sad part is that the D-getter won't last forever and when it goes it will be very unlikely that D-getters are still available.
> 
> For my music tastes and with this DAC, amp, and headphones, the D-getter beats the Psvane tubes (6SN7-SE and 6SN7-UK) and throws some shade on the Apex Peak setup. Impressive. But YMMV.


That's why we buy backups and backups for my backup tube.  I literally had this written, an hour ago, but forgot to hit send, and bcowen beat me to it.  Good to know, that I am not alone.


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## Wes S (Apr 4, 2019)

I am currently burning in my 3rd CV1988, and 1 more on the way.   I have convinced myself, that I enjoy the Lyr 3 so much, that I am keeping it for the long haul.  Hince the tube collecting. . .


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## malenak

bcowen said:


> Ah, ok.  How fortunate that all those who put time and thought into those posts _don't _have work or a life. Perhaps one of them will take some more time and summarize everything for you so that you don't have to lift a finger....just won't be me.


Let`s try to be not so serious. I mean my words really in a nice way, as a joke. There is no need to be upset... Like really...


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> That's the reason for backups. And backups for the backups. And backups for the backups of the backups. That's what I keep telling myself anyway.


35 backups (as seen in photo)... Bill - I guess the Foton is not your favorite tube?


----------



## Yviena

Hmmm further listening with the melz round hole 1578+HD800 it seems that high gain sounds better,  etc, I do believe i read somewhere the lyr 3 uses more negative feedback in the low-gain position.


----------



## Wes S

Yviena said:


> Hmmm further listening with the melz round hole 1578+HD800 it seems that high gain sounds better,  etc, I do believe i read somewhere the lyr 3 uses more negative feedback in the low-gain position.


High gain, has always sounded better for me, with all my Schiit gear.  However, with my t50 mods, they need the extra power anyway.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## earnmyturns

bcowen said:


> That's the reason for backups. And backups for the backups. And backups for the backups of the backups. That's what I keep telling myself anyway.


----------



## earnmyturns

Yviena said:


> Hmmm further listening with the melz round hole 1578+HD800 it seems that high gain sounds better,  etc, I do believe i read somewhere the lyr 3 uses more negative feedback in the low-gain position.


High gain sounds better to me with all tubes I've used.  have a passive Tisbury volume control set to -10dB between my DAC (Metrum Onyx) and the amps (Lyr 3 and Apex Peak) so that I can have amp volume controls around the middle position (depending on recording).


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S (Apr 4, 2019)

bcowen said:


> I should look at doing something similar. I'm normally around 9:00 with the Lyr's volume pot which is likely not the optimum spot for best channel balance.


We have been discussing passive preamp/attenuators over on the Liquid Platinum thread, and I never thought to use one with my Lyr 3.  I feel that I am way past any channel imbalance way before 9 and never go past 10.  However, I am still learning about this, and is it not optimal to be around 9?  even though I dont hear any imbalance?  I am worried about degrading the sound, when using attenuators, so I am not using any yet.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Wes S said:


> We have been discussing passive preamp/attenuators over on the Liquid Platinum thread, and I never thought to use one with my Lyr 3.  I feel that I am way past any channel imbalance way before 9 and never go past 10.  However, I am still learning about this, and is it not optimal to be around 9?  even though I dont hear any imbalance?  I am worried about degrading the sound, when using attenuators, so I am not using any yet.





bcowen said:


> Most inexpensive pots track best in the 10:00 - 3:00 range. But that's just in general, and imbalances at either extreme can be very minor. The Lyr's pot may be perfectly fine around 9:00, and like you I haven't ever detected any audible issues using it there. I'm just anal, again in general.



I'm in the camp that believes that if there are no imbalance issues on the pot at the volume you want to listen at, then it is complete nervosa of the brain to worry about if you're at 3:00 or 9:00.   I also don't recall there being any imbalance on my Lyr at anything but the very lowest volume settings, which almost all pots have, so...


----------



## m17xr2b

The Lyr 3 uses an alps pot. I've used it plenty of times with great success and the base Woo WA5 uses it as well. If there are any bottlenecks it's not the volume pot. You only should have imbalance at very low end where it's too quiet anyway.


----------



## Wes S

ProfFalkin said:


> I'm in the camp that believes that if there are no imbalance issues on the pot at the volume you want to listen at, then it is complete nervosa of the brain to worry about if you're at 3:00 or 9:00.   I also don't recall there being any imbalance on my Lyr at anything but the very lowest volume settings, which almost all pots have, so...


 Cool!  Yep, my lyr 3 has almost no audible imbalance anywhere, so back to the music.  Thanks for calming me, back down!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## FLTWS (Apr 4, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Well in that case I'll need something _else_ to be nervous about.
> 
> I wonder if @Ripper2860 has more tubes than me. That would be terrible. Maybe I should go count. But count new ones as well as used ones? What about questionable ones?  Crap...having a minor panic attack...



What we need here is one of those "Bassmaster" weigh-ins at a tractor trailer weight station to determine who has the most tubes, should be quicker than counting (and losing track during the count). So each of you bring your storage trailers, chock full of tubes, and we'll see whose got the bigger load.

As far as channel tracking, I'd be willing to bet there are fewer bad tracking pots than bad tracking ears (and you can't be certain without having an audiologist test for it).


----------



## Wes S (Apr 4, 2019)

FLTWS said:


> What we need here is one of those "Bassmaster" weigh-ins at a tractor trailer weight station to determine who has the most tubes, should be quicker than counting (and losing track during the count). So each of you bring your storage trailers and we'll see whose got the bigger load.
> 
> As far as channel tracking, I'd be willing to bet there are fewer bad tracking pots than bad tracking ears (and you can't be certain without having an audiologist test for it).


Love it!  I just caught 4 bass on beds, on my lunch break.  Those weigh-ins are fun with fish, and would be even more fun with NOS tubes!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

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----------



## Ripper2860

Golly-Gee.  I think @bcowen might have a man-crush on me!  He does seem to admire me and puts me up on a pedestal just high enough to look up my cargo shorts!!!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Golly-Gee.  I think @bcowen might have a man-crush on me!  He does seem to admire me and puts me up on a pedestal just high enough to look up my cargo shorts!!!






 



bcowen said:


> Your delusional state is becoming epic.
> 
> But cargo shorts?  Are those on the shelf just above where your leisure suits hang?  Or do you fold them neatly and keep them in the '72 Vega sitting on blocks in your front yard?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 4, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Your delusional state is becoming epic.
> 
> But cargo shorts?  Are those on the shelf just above where your leisure suits hang?  Or do you fold them neatly and keep them in the '72 Vega sitting on blocks in your front yard?



Cargo shorts = more pockets.  More pockets = more tube storage.  More tube storage = Winning!  Go ahead and be jealous, but don't hate the playa that out-plays ya. 

And yes that's a good ole American Chevy  Vega, man!   Not some un-American broken-ass traitor Mazda.  As soon as you make the last payment on my Vega you can come get it and stop taking the bus to work and back


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Cargo shorts = more pockets.  More pockets = more tube storage.  More tube storage = Winning!  Go ahead and be jealous, but don't hate the playa that out-plays ya.
> 
> And yes that's a good ole American Chevy  Vega, man!   Not some un-American broken-ass traitor Mazda.  As soon as you make the last payment on my Vega you can come get it and stop taking the bus to work and back


Is that a short-bottle 6SN7 in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?


----------



## Ripper2860

It's not the size of ones tube but what one does with their tube.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

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## Ripper2860 (Apr 4, 2019)

The wheels are on my ATV, but once paid for you can have them.  And I prefer grits as any self-respecting Southerner would.


----------



## earnmyturns

bcowen said:


> I should look at doing something similar. I'm normally around 9:00 with the Lyr's volume pot which is likely not the optimum spot for best channel balance.


If you don't need two outputs from the passive, the Schiit SYS is a good choice, although the Tisbury has also the advantage of switch-settable -10dB and -20dB attenuation levels.


----------



## ProfFalkin

I put a SYS in-between my DAC and studio monitors as a volume control when I had to start using XLR output from my Gumby to the DSHA-3F.   (3F is XLR only)

It's audibly transparent and worth the meager asking price.  B-stock is $35.


----------



## ProfFalkin

earnmyturns said:


> No kidding. The Reliatron D-getter I bought from you (thanks again!) totally revived the Lyr 3 for me, after several months of neglect while I listened to my exotic Apex Peak+Psvane 6SN7-SE setup. There's something just magical in the Metrum Onyx>Lyr 3+D-getter>MrSpeakers Ether C Flow 1.1 chain for modern jazz that I can't quite put my finger on but keeps me hooked way too late in the evening. The only sad part is that the D-getter won't last forever and when it goes it will be very unlikely that D-getters are still available.
> 
> For my music tastes and with this DAC, amp, and headphones, the D-getter beats the Psvane tubes (6SN7-SE and 6SN7-UK) and throws some shade on the Apex Peak setup. Impressive. But YMMV.


BTW, I'm really glad you like this tube.  It's good to know it's being enjoyed.


----------



## Wes S

Anyone looking for a WH d getter?  
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/392271656986


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Wait....I was just convinced I didn't need to worry about this. Now I do?  Or not? Maybe? Damnit.


I have tried out the sys with my LP for this and it worked quite well, but did not give me as much range as I wanted, before it squashed the dynamics.  However, I think it could work well with the Lyr 3.


----------



## Zachik

Wes S said:


> I have tried out the sys with my LP for this and it worked quite well, but did not give me as much range as I wanted, before it squashed the dynamics.  However, I think it could work well with the Lyr 3.


I am actually debating buying a Saga to put in front of the Lyr 3...
Did anyone here try to use the Schiit Saga to attenuate the Lyr input? (sorry, do not remember if discussed before or not...)


----------



## Wes S (Apr 5, 2019)

Zachik said:


> I am actually debating buying a Saga to put in front of the Lyr 3...
> Did anyone here try to use the Schiit Saga to attenuate the Lyr input? (sorry, do not remember if discussed before or not...)


Oh!  I like that idea!  More tubes and a remote!


----------



## Yviena

Ideally schiit should have added a middle gain option, with a 3-way switch, but some RCA attentuators may work just as well.


----------



## Wes S

Yviena said:


> Ideally schiit should have added a middle gain option, with a 3-way switch, but some RCA attentuators may work just as well.


I have a pair of Harrison 12db attenuator rca,  but have noy tried them yet.  Has anyone here ever tried them?


----------



## earnmyturns

bcowen said:


> Wait....I was just convinced I didn't need to worry about this. Now I do?  Or not? Maybe? Damnit.


Worry, no. I ended up with this setup for a few reasons: 1) my current DAC (Metrum Onyx) puts out a fairly high amplitude signal; 2) I like high gain better than low gain on the Lyr 3; 3) I like to keep the amp's volume pot in the middle of its range; 4) I have two single-ended input amps (Lyr 3 and Apex Peak) that is convenient to have always wired to the source.


----------



## tafens

I just jumped on this "'52 MELZ 6SN7GT".. very beneavolent pricing compared to other listings out there (seller has at least one more that I could see), but is it the "real deal"? Being a tube novice (I've only got four, you know, just starting out on my hoardi.. wait. I mean, COLLECTION), I'm not really familiar with the signs and markings to look for:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-tube...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## ilikepooters

tafens said:


> I just jumped on this "'52 MELZ 6SN7GT".. very beneavolent pricing compared to other listings out there (seller has at least one more that I could see), but is it the "real deal"? Being a tube novice (I've only got four, you know, just starting out on my hoardi.. wait. I mean, COLLECTION), I'm not really familiar with the signs and markings to look for:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-tube-6N8S-MELZ-6SN7GT-produced-in-52-1-pcs/254189772802?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649




Genuine MELZ, but not the holy grail 1578. See below:


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Yviena said:


> Ideally schiit should have added a middle gain option, with a 3-way switch, but some RCA attentuators may work just as well.





Wes S said:


> I have a pair of Harrison 12db attenuator rca,  but have noy tried them yet.  Has anyone here ever tried them?



Well, to be honest, I would want this attenuation (either using Saga or otherwise) for other amp (Liquid Platinum), too... So something like Saga is a better solution than RCA attenuators (not to mention the remote control )


----------



## Wes S

I just got my 3rd, STC/Brimar CV1988 black glass, brown base, burned in and damn this is an amazing tube.  The CV1988 is the quietest tube I have heard yet, which really adds to the performance.  The instruments are each clearly defined and have there own space.  The width and depth, seem endless, especially the width.  The mids are the best I have heard.  I was just sitting in front of Stevie Nicks singing Landslide, and I got tears in my eyes, it sounded so lifelike.  This tube is clean, clear, and open, with no harshness ever anywhere.  The bass hits so hard and deep, that it gives the real "Bad Boy", a run for the money, in that department.  Anyways, I just wanted to praise this tube, one more time.  I don't know, what kind of special sauce Brimar used in their tubes, but the 6922 variant is just as good, in my Liquid Platinum.  If you have the time and money, I suggest hunting one if these tubes down, and rolling it in the Lyr 3.  I am using my Alpha Prime and ZMF Blackwood, and they both sound stunning.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## tafens

Wes S said:


> I just got my 3rd, STC/Brimar CV1988 black glass, brown base, burned in and damn this is an amazing tube.  The CV1988 is the quietest tube I have heard yet, which really adds to the performance.  The instruments are each clearly defined and have there own space.  The width and depth, seem endless, especially the width.  The mids are the best I have heard.  I was just sitting in front of Stevie Nicks singing Landslide, and I got tears in my eyes, it sounded so lifelike.  This tube is clean, clear, and open, with no harshness ever anywhere.  The bass hits so hard and deep, that it gives the real "Bad Boy", a run for the money, in that department.  Anyways, I just wanted to praise this tube, one more time.  I don't know, what kind of special sauce Brimar used in their tubes, but the 6922 variant is just as good, in my Liquid Platinum.  If you have the time and money, I suggest hunting one if these tubes down, and rolling it in the Lyr 3.  I am using my Alpha Prime and ZMF Blackwood, and they both sound stunning.



Aargh... must... resist...

Seriously though, how does it compare to the stock Tung-Sol? Especially in the mids, is it stronger or about the same level?


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Like this?


That is it.  Some are listed for insane prices like $500 a pair, however you can find them for $120 to $150, a piece.


----------



## ilikepooters

My Brimar black glass is this version:






It's probably same tube as the CV1988 labelled tube, sounds sublime, can't beat that Brimar width.


----------



## Wes S

ilikepooters said:


> My Brimar black glass is this version:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it is the same.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Like this?


Please don't tell me you got just one..... what about 10 backups?!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> 10 backups is the minimum level that signals you need to get some more.  I'm safe for a while.


Phew... That's a relief


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Looks kinda wimpy, like the Lyr is eating it.
> 
> An Amperex 7316 warming up. Interested to see if it's a contender in the Lyr 3.



Feeling a wee bit inadequate there Bill?  


OK -- seriously, i have to get a 12au7 to 6sn7 adapter so I can try 12au7's for VH2 on Lyr 3.  And while I'm at it, I should pickup some 6sn7 to 6922 adapters to try my plethora of 6sn7s in VH2.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## tafens (Apr 7, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Looks kinda wimpy, like the Lyr is eating it.
> 
> An Amperex 7316 warming up. Interested to see if it's a contender in the Lyr 3.



Size doesn’t matter, isn’t that what they say? 
Please tell how it did compared to its bigger brothers


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Feeling a wee bit inadequate there Bill?
> 
> 
> OK -- seriously, i have to get a 12au7 to 6sn7 adapter so I can try 12au7's for VH2 on Lyr 3.  And while I'm at it, I should pickup some 6sn7 to 6922 adapters to try my plethora of 6sn7s in VH2.


The 12AU7 is one heck of a popular tube, at the moment!  It seems that every tube rolling thread, no matter the amp, has gone to the 12au7?  I think I should start stocking up on some Mullard Square getter long plates 12au7, before they are gone. . .


----------



## Zachik

For whoever wanted to try @bcowen 's Frankentube - I believe this one is:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/392272705932?ul_noapp=true

Bill - can you confirm it is a true Franken?


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Wes S said:


> The 12AU7 is one heck of a popular tube, at the moment!  It seems that every tube rolling thread, no matter the amp, has gone to the 12au7?  I think I should start stocking up on some Mullard Square getter long plates 12au7, before they are gone. . .



Specs are pretty close to 6SN7 too, only cathode resistor is the only spec that sorta wildly different.


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## Wes S (Apr 7, 2019)

ilikepooters said:


> Specs are pretty close to 6SN7 too, only cathode resistor is the only spec that sorta wildly different.


I wont be trying them in Lyr, as I am happy with my 6sn7, but I do plan on building a bottlehead crack, that was actually made with the 12au7,  and the reason to maybe stock up now.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Wes S said:


> I wont be trying them in Lyr, as I am happy with my 6sn7, but I do plan on building a bottlehead crack, that was actually made with the 12au7,  and the reason to maybe stock up now.


The above mentioned Mullard long plates are amazing in the Crack.  It's what I use.   Got mine from Brent Jesse


----------



## OldSkool

Wes S said:


> I wont be trying them in Lyr, as I am happy with my 6sn7, but I do plan on building a bottlehead crack, that was actually made with the 12au7,  and the reason to maybe stock up now.



Another great option is a Woo WA2 with adapters. I'm using TFK  ECC801S (12AT7) now but the 6SN7 Sylvania Bad Boys were sounding amazing as well.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Yviena (Apr 8, 2019)

Seems that the psvane UK isn't really a good match for HD800, treble is sometimes too much, and it makes the headphones feel closed-in compared to the melz, taking away the large soundstage their known for, my previous amp a torpedo+e90cc tubes did a much better job there but it had less clarity, bass.

The MELZ though feels much more open in the soundstage but bass/dynamics, and treble suffers a little compared to the psvane.


----------



## ilikepooters

Yviena said:


> Seems that the psvane UK isn't really a good match for HD800, treble is sometimes too much, and it makes the headphones feel closed-in compared to the melz, taking away the large soundstage their known for, my previous amp a torpedo+e90cc tubes did a much better job there but it had less clarity, bass.
> 
> The MELZ though feels much more open in the soundstage but bass/dynamics, and treble suffers a little compared to the psvane.



Brimar might be better match for HD800, overall a warmer tube, wider too but the treble is more refined compared to MELZ.

MELZ 1578 does seem a tad warm to me in Lyr 3 but Brimar definitely warmer.


----------



## Yviena

ilikepooters said:


> Brimar might be better match for HD800, overall a warmer tube, wider too but the treble is more refined compared to MELZ.
> 
> MELZ 1578 does seem a tad warm to me in Lyr 3 but Brimar definitely warmer.


Which brimar model are you talking about, the black glass one or?


----------



## ilikepooters

Yviena said:


> Which brimar model are you talking about, the black glass one or?



They're all much of a muchness really, i have clear glass with orange print and black glass with brown base and can't really choose much between them. Haven't tried the black glass with black base though.


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## Wes S (Apr 9, 2019)

I just scored 2 NOS, with one being NIB, black glass/ black base Brimar 6SN7GT.  They look to have the exact same construction, as the brown base/ black glass Brimar, so lets see if they sound the same.  I will report back, after burn in.  I love this forum, and all the helpful members.  I found me a great member, with a stash of all the great 6SN7's and he has been kind enough to sell me a few, from his private collection.  Thanks Stavros!


----------



## tafens

ilikepooters said:


>



Is the year of manufacture important? I thought the real ones should be from 1950's, but the instruction says nothing about year.

Ok, trying to identify some suspect tubes on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-1578-6N...951454?hash=item261891959e:g:g0sAAOSwiOZcTAXD
In this one, even though both tubes are stamped with 1578, the tube on the left is fake, because it has the oval mica and the brackets are of the wrong kind. The tube on the right however, is real 1578, even though year is 86 according to seller/date stamp?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-MELZ-...029187&hash=item2ac84075ee:g:chwAAOSwXIRcmVEw
Real, but from 1970's?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2PCS-6N8S-...204642&hash=item1ef7c1c2ca:g:hRUAAOSwH2Vb8Iog
Are the round holes in the plate important? If not the left one is real (ledges on mica, steel brackets), but the right one is not (oval mica, wrong brackets)?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ilikepooters

Mine is November '69, not heard any other years, but that '70's one for $48 is a steal, really worth a punt at that price. Payed $120 for mine.


----------



## malenak

So, I just got the JJ Electronic 6SL7. I am courious, I ordered 6SN7, but I got 6SL7. Is there any difference? I tried it, it fits into Lyr3 without any problem. And, it plays nice right from the beginning. It is better than stock. Did anyone tried JJ Electronic 6SL7? What are your thoughts?
I am courious if the sound will change with burning-in.


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## Wes S (Apr 11, 2019)

malenak said:


> So, I just got the JJ Electronic 6SL7. I am courious, I ordered 6SN7, but I got 6SL7. Is there any difference? I tried it, it fits into Lyr3 without any problem. And, it plays nice right from the beginning. It is better than stock. Did anyone tried JJ Electronic 6SL7? What are your thoughts?
> I am courious if the sound will change with burning-in.


Running tubes, that were not designed for the amp, seems to be a major trend these days?  Seems kind of strange to me, and I won't be doing it, unless I get an ok from the designer of the amp.  Seeing as they know, way more than me, about what is going on under the hood, I am gonna stick with the tube made for the amp.  Guess I am leaving this thread too, so I am not tempted to ruin my amps.


----------



## tafens

malenak said:


> So, I just got the JJ Electronic 6SL7. I am courious, I ordered 6SN7, but I got 6SL7. Is there any difference?



A quick search for some specs reveals that the heater filament current is 0.3 amps at 6.3 volts for 6SL7. 6SN7 is 0.6 amps at 6.3 volts so it’s ok that way, but it could have other electrical differences which the Lyr3 may not be designed to handle.

Heater current is really important by the way, as too much heater current can overheat and/or blow the transformers and generally make for a bad day.

Anyway, I’d recommend mailing Schiit and ask if the Lyr3 can handle the 6SL7 before continuing to use it.


----------



## tafens

ilikepooters said:


> Mine is November '69, not heard any other years, but that '70's one for $48 is a steal, really worth a punt at that price. Payed $120 for mine.



Seems someone snagged it now.
Oh, wait. That was me 

That was two more tubes in as many days..
Gosh, this really is a slippery slope..


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## domes

I am new to the Lyr3 and new to tubes but finally managed to jump into the boat!!  I happened to snag a nos Westinghouse 6SN7GTB with top D getter and black plates from tctubes.com that came in a box with Westinghouse Reliatron printed on one side.  I hope this is the one others have mentioned is quite good.  So far, the tube is not wowing me and reminds me a bit of solid state.  The amp came with a used Raytheon, which sounds much more alive, dynamic, spacious with better bass than the Westinghouse.  Problem is, it is so microphonic I can't even type on my keyboard without hearing the tube noise and I had to move it further away from my monitors to make it almost bearable.  Maybe and hopefully the Westinghouse will really improve with burn in?  I only have about 8 hours on it so far.  It however is dead silent and the Lyr3 is considerably cooler than with the Raytheon in it.


----------



## ProfFalkin

50 hours, then reevaluate.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## domes (Apr 12, 2019)

Maybe I don’t have a Raytheon but a GE. These are 2 photos of the “Raytheon”  It still sounds good just crazy microphonic.  I thought at first maybe something wrong with the lyr until I put in the Schiit stock tube.


----------



## domes

And the Westinghouse GTB.


----------



## domes

Tried to show top of tube and box with some ip and gm numbers.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## domes

Thanks for your review!  I am going to try some rubber footers for the bottom of the Lyr to help with microphonics and also keep burning in the Westinghouse.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## domes

Awesome!!!  I will check these out.  Thank you!


----------



## earnmyturns

domes said:


> And the Westinghouse GTB.


Yep, that seems legit, although it's impossible to say whether it needs more burn-in, or is past its prime. The D-getter Reliatron I bought from @ProfFalkin is definitely wowing me, to the point that Lyr 3 with it is outplaying a fancier amp (see my sig) with a very good tube (I know, I should try the D-getter on the Apex Peak, but I'm really enjoying this Lyr 3 stint).


----------



## Deaj

I just purchased these:

Sylvania bottom getter, flat plates 6SN7GT 
(date code on one is June of 1951) 

I did some reading prior to pulling the trigger on these and what I was able to find seemed to indicate that they're great sounding tubes. The flat plate variants appear to be rare and it seems not much information is available (or I'm looking in the wrong places)  

Wondering if anyone here has any experience with this particular tube. I'd appreciate any information and (more importantly) listening impressions. I'll post my own impressions one I have had an opportunity to listen to the Lyr 3 with one of these installed.

Thanks!


----------



## FLTWS

I've been using Herbie's Tenderfeet under my MJ2, Jot, LYR3, and Valhalla2 since I purchased them. I have no vibration, feedback, or microphonic issues its just to get better air circulation (same reason I like socket savers/lifters) and raise the knobs up so they aren't so flush with the shelves. I tend to center all my gear on the shelves to minimize any tippy-ness as my shelf / rack system(s) are on casters for ease of use.  I haven't noticed any marring of the surfaces they been sitting on either and some have been in use 3 years.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 13, 2019)

The Suzier adapters and lifters are my preferred.  All my adapters (12AU7 -> 6922, Loktal -> 6SN7) and lifters* (8-pin 6SN7 and 9-pin 6922) are Suzier.  The quality is top notch and unless one is in a big hurry to get them (shipping takes a bit), they are the way to go!!

** As stated, they do hold your tube with a death-grip, so they do come out of the amp with the tube, so lif*t*er is a most appropriate term.  Since the Valhalla 2 and Lyr 3 all have deeply recessed sockets, that works out perfectly for me -- no stranded adapters/lifters I have to fish out.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 16, 2019)

Oooops.  I guess so!!  

(corrected)


----------



## domes

My Westinghouse Reliatron is starting to turn the corner after 24 hours.  I heard it start to open up in the middle of one track and begin to improve.  Looks like I just need to continue to be patient.


----------



## Scrith

Just reiterating my thoughts on the (relatively cheap) ECC82 (I have two Telefunkens that were $18 each on eBay a few months ago)...this tube sounds very, very nice.  Detailed, good bass, solid midrange (I'll leave the highs to someone else...my ears are a bit old).  Not much warmth like the British ECC33, but very nice for those that prefer a cleaner sound.

If you haven't tried an ECC82, I highly recommend picking one up (along with an adapter).

Let me know if my Lyr 3 is going to explode soon due to using these.


----------



## Deaj

Deaj said:


> I just purchased these:
> 
> Sylvania bottom getter, flat plates 6SN7GT
> (date code on one is June of 1951)
> ...



Just a quick follow-up. I received the Sylvania tubes linked in the quoted post above this afternoon. I only had ~90 minutes to listen with them (one in the Saga and one in the Lyr 3), occasionally switching the Saga between active and passive mode. I don't have enough listening time to confidently describe what I'm hearing so far, and no time comparing them to any other tubes.

Initial impression is very positive.

Once I've had enough listening time I'll post detailed impressions.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Herbie's Big Baby Booties would be perfect under the Lyr 3 to help combat microphonics.  A little pricey for some footers, but you can muck up the sound pretty easily with something like sorbothane (Gaaaaa…) or the peel'n'stick ones from the $0.99 12-piece card at Wal Mart.
> 
> https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collect...n/products/baby-bootie?variant=12645104451639
> 
> ...


Interesting stuff.  Curious how the sorbothane can muck up the sound?  I have a set of Pangea pico feet, but am not using them at the moment, but was thinking about putting them under my Lyr 3.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Apr 16, 2019)

Wes S said:


> Curious how the sorbothane can muck up the sound?


I consulted my "Healing Crystals for Audiophooles" handbook and Sorbothane isn't in there.    Clearly not good.


----------



## Scrith

Just out of curiousity, could someone here familar with electrical engineering explain why similar tubes (e.g. Sylvania 6SN7 vs. Ken-Rad 6SN7) sound different (in particular, differencs in, say, bass or midrange)?


----------



## ilikepooters

Scrith said:


> Just out of curiousity, could someone here familar with electrical engineering explain why similar tubes (e.g. Sylvania 6SN7 vs. Ken-Rad 6SN7) sound different (in particular, differencs in, say, bass or midrange)?




Could be many things....

Cathode impurities could vary from one tube maker to the next, also the spacing between the cathode, grid and plate, grid material, maybe plate material and impurities? Also how the heater wiring is made, some might draw slightly more or less current thus boiling off more or less electrons from the cathode. Plate structure may play a part in relation to crosstalk or interference from one triode to the other.

All we know for sure is that G.E got all of the above wrong when making tubes.

That's the magic of tubes


----------



## Scrith

Another question:  has anyone tried an ECC32 lately?  How did that turn out?


----------



## ilikepooters

Scrith said:


> Another question:  has anyone tried an ECC32 lately?  How did that turn out?




I saw earlier in the thread someone used ECC32, top tier tube i believe, only problem is it draws 50% more heater current than a 6SN7 so might fry a transformer with prolonged use.
ECC33 is a safer bet.


----------



## Wes S

Anyone curious, as to whether the black glass/black base Brimar, sound the same as the black glass/brown base Brimar, well I am happy to confirm, that they sound the same.  This was not much of a surprise, seeing as they have identical construction, on the inside.  Funny how, my research online suggested otherwise, but that just goes to show, how much bad info, is out there.  The clear glass Brimar, don't have the 2 little metal (coolers) tabs, mounted to the top of the grid post, but other than that they look the same inside as both black glass Brimar.  Anyway, back to the music.  I have a Gumby, on the way, Brimar tubes in both my Lyr 3 and LP, so I am getting ready to hear them, at their full potential.  

Happy Easter!

Wes


----------



## Wes S

Anyone looking for spooky realistic tonality and soundstage for days. . .Roll in a Brimar black glass.  Now that I have my Gumby in the chain, I am hearing it all, and man o man, is the Brimar black glass, a killer tube!


----------



## dieslemat

Wes S said:


> Anyone looking for spooky realistic tonality and soundstage for days. . .Roll in a Brimar black glass.  Now that I have my Gumby in the chain, I am hearing it all, and man o man, is the Brimar black glass, a killer tube!



Curious to know where you bought this?


----------



## Wes S

dieslemat said:


> Curious to know where you bought this?


From the Classifieds on this forum, and from an awesome forum member.


----------



## Wes S

This is the tube - https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.pl/ulk/itm/202660109681
And another
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/192895354994


----------



## Wes S

Anyone looking for some Brimar 6SN7GT, this is the seller and forum member, that I bought mine from.  I highly recommend this seller, and can not say enough good things about him!  Also, you can't beat his prices.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/british-6sn7-tubes-fs.904926/


----------



## Ripper2860

Wes S said:


> Anyone looking for some Brimar 6SN7GT, this is the seller and forum member, that I bought mine from.  I highly recommend this seller, and can not say enough good things about him!  Also, you can't beat his prices.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/british-6sn7-tubes-fs.904926/



Thanks!!  I've pinged the seller and hope to snag one.


----------



## tafens

Before getting the Lyr3 I was a little worried that rolling the tubes would have little effect. I had also read just that in various places, that in hybrid amps, generally, tube rolling would just have a small effect (I don’t remember exactly where though).

After some (albeit limited) tube rolling on the Lyr3, I can say, that to my ears at least, the difference between tubes in the Lyr3 can be spanking HUGE. No A/B switching needed, not by a long shot.

That makes me wonder what it is that makes one tube sound different from another..? What makes a tube mid-centric, what makes it have a large sound stage, what makes it full of PRaT and dynamics?
Oh, the questions in life..
And now, back to some tubular listening..


----------



## Wes S

tafens said:


> Before getting the Lyr3 I was a little worried that rolling the tubes would have little effect. I had also read just that in various places, that in hybrid amps, generally, tube rolling would just have a small effect (I don’t remember exactly where though).
> 
> After some (albeit limited) tube rolling on the Lyr3, I can say, that to my ears at least, the difference between tubes in the Lyr3 can be spanking HUGE. No A/B switching needed, not by a long shot.
> 
> ...


If we only knew, the answers to those questions!  One thing, as far as construction, I have often found that tall bottle tubes, sound different and most cases better, than short bottle tubes.   I don't know, if there is anything to the bottle size, but my two favorite tubes, the "Bad Boy", and Brimar are my tallest tubes.  I have read that tube rolling has little to no affect on hybrids, time and time again, and those people don't have a clue.  First off, not all hybrids are the same, and the two hybrids I own, change a quite a bit, with each tube roll, as tafens just mentioned.


----------



## Scrith

I noticed something a bit odd this morning while listening to a Frankentube (well, it's a very tall 7N7 with a chrome top and metal base, at least):  the bass seemed a bit light, but I kept listening, then about 30 minutes later I noticed the tube was running quite hot, so I put a tube-microphonics-and-heat-reducer metal ring around the metal base, which seemed to cool it down a bit (not much, but the metal ring and metal holder things are getting quite warm now, so it is acting a bit like a heat sink), and the bass seemed to get a bit stronger.  Am I imagining it or could such a thing have an effect on the tube's sound?


----------



## Ripper2860

I have several of the Frankentubes and have never experience what you've described.  Sure the metal ring and tube get pretty darn hot, but never to the detriment of the sound.  Do you have a tester that you can use to check the tube's health?


----------



## Scrith

Ripper2860 said:


> I have several of the Frankentubes and have never experience what you've described.  Sure the metal ring and tube get pretty darn hot, but never to the detriment of the sound.  Do you have a tester that you can use to check the tube's health?



Yes, I have a tester, but it is being calibrated/repaired at the moment.

After a bit more testing, I think that tube is just a bit weak (it probably won't test very well).  When I switched in my other Frankentube (labeled Philco, but meeting all the requirements in the original Frankentube post) I was back listening to an amazing tube.

By the way, I broke my original cheap 7N7-to-6SN7 adapter from eBay, so I ordered one from Woo Audio.  Yes, it was expensive compared to the eBay version, but it is very, very nice...worth it I'd say if you are using these monster tubes.

One more by the way...I have a Sylvania tube that looks and smells like a Frankentube (eww...gross), but it has the squared-off plate at the bottom (rather than a more oval-like plate).  It sounds OK to me though, although I haven't put it in a serious head-to-head testing round vs. one of the legit Frankentubes.

OK, fine, just one more note...I popped in a Brimar brown-base and heard some low volume ticking-type noises while in High Gain on the Lyr 3 (with no audio playing).  Switching to Low Gain fixed the problem.  Is that due to a damaged or defective tube?  The Brimar is the only tube I have with a problem like that, as far as I know.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 24, 2019)

Thanks for the tip.  I've been pretty fortunate with my Suzier adapters.

As it relates to the Frankimposter tube -- yeah there are some pretty close ones, appearance-wise.  Frankly (pun intended), I've found most 7N7's to be quite enjoyable -- Frankie or otherwise.  The Frankie does have a bit more extended bottom-end and more sparkle up-top.  It exhibits a nice slam in the bass that really punches.  I've also found a pretty rare 7N7 that looks very similar to  a Frankie, but have a copper support rod that is between the plates ala 6SN7W.  If you see one -- snag it and give it a listen.  I truly believe it is a Loktal version of the coveted Sylvania 6SN7W Tall Bottle tubes.

I don't have any Brimar 6SN7 tubes, but will have my 1st in about a week or so.  Can't say I've ever experienced a ticking sound in any tube at all, however, I have had a couple of tubes that were exhibiting a bit of static and crackling.  With older tubes, the solder in the pins can dry out a bit and cause issues with noise.  Using a hot soldering iron and running it up and down the pins can help re-flow the solder inside and can cure the situation.**  I'd try it as 1) it's free and 2) with care the odds of damaging the tube is practically nil.  Be sure to hold the tube such that the pins are facing down as you do not want solder running up into the base and possibly creating a short between pins.  I've done this on 3 tubes that I was ready to toss and they were brought back to working order and still in my stash.  

*** Don't try re-flowing solder on tubes with exposed pins like Loktals, 9-pins tubes, etc.  I'd stick to 6SN7s only.*


----------



## Wes S

Scrith said:


> I noticed something a bit odd this morning while listening to a Frankentube (well, it's a very tall 7N7 with a chrome top and metal base, at least):  the bass seemed a bit light, but I kept listening, then about 30 minutes later I noticed the tube was running quite hot, so I put a tube-microphonics-and-heat-reducer metal ring around the metal base, which seemed to cool it down a bit (not much, but the metal ring and metal holder things are getting quite warm now, so it is acting a bit like a heat sink), and the bass seemed to get a bit stronger.  Am I imagining it or could such a thing have an effect on the tube's sound?


I have never experienced that.  The only changes, I hear are after warmup, which is about 30 minutes to an hour, and after burn in (50-100) hours.


----------



## Wes S

Scrith said:


> Yes, I have a tester, but it is being calibrated/repaired at the moment.
> 
> After a bit more testing, I think that tube is just a bit weak (it probably won't test very well).  When I switched in my other Frankentube (labeled Philco, but meeting all the requirements in the original Frankentube post) I was back listening to an amazing tube.
> 
> ...


I have heard pinging or clicking, on startup with NOS tubes, and my latest mint condition NIB Brimar black glass, did ping/tick off an on, for a minute or so, only on first startup, and now it does not make any noises at all.  I assume this was because the tube was brand new, and never had been used.  As far as used tubes go, often times if they are noisy, they usually only get worse.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Thanks for the tip.  I've been pretty fortunate with my Suzier adapters.
> 
> As it realtes to the Frankimposter tube -- yeah there are some pretty close ones, appearance-wise.  Frankly (pun intended), I've found most 7N7's to be quite enjoyable -- Frankie or otherwise.  The Frankie does have a bit more extended bottom-end and more sparkle up-top.  It exhibits a nice slam in the bass that really punches.  I've also found a pretty rare 7N7 that looks very similar to  a Frankie, but have a copper support rod that is between the plates ala 6SN7W.  If you see one -- snag it and give it a listen.  I truly believe it is a Loktal version of the coveted Sylvania 6SN7W Tall Bottle tubes.
> 
> ...


Glad you scored one of those Brimar!  Stavros, is an awesome guy, and all 4 Brimar tubes, I have bought from him, look like they were brand new.  He really has an amazing collection, and took great care of his tubes.


----------



## dieslemat

What do you guys think about these

https://brimaruk.com/valves/triodes/brimar-6sn7gt/

i know its not NOS but just wondering if its any good.


----------



## Wes S

dieslemat said:


> What do you guys think about these
> 
> https://brimaruk.com/valves/triodes/brimar-6sn7gt/
> 
> i know its not NOS but just wondering if its any good.


I have never even seen those before, however they don't have the same construction, as the old ones, so who knows, how they will sound.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 24, 2019)

The new Brimars look suspiciously Russian to me.  


(J/K -- they're made in UK)


----------



## ilikepooters (Apr 24, 2019)

Those new Brimars are made in Russia or China. They are looking to bring production back to the UK and have repatriated some of Mullard's tooling back from eastern Europe but could be years yet before they're up and running.

See here: https://brimaruk.com/menugbvp/great-british-valve-project-2/


----------



## Ripper2860

That's what I get for skimming.  I stand corrected.  Explains why they look Russian.


----------



## Wes S

ilikepooters said:


> Those new Brimars are made in Russia or China. They are looking to bring production back to the UK and have repatriated some of Mullard's tooling back from eastern Europe but could be years yet before they're up and running.
> 
> See here: https://brimaruk.com/menugbvp/great-british-valve-project-2/


I will pass, and stick with the old ones.  However, that could be cool, if they could make them, like they used to. . .


----------



## tafens

dieslemat said:


> What do you guys think about these
> 
> https://brimaruk.com/valves/triodes/brimar-6sn7gt/
> 
> i know its not NOS but just wondering if its any good.



Not too expensive, maybe worth a try? Not made in the UK though, and they won’t tell where..

Interstingly, on the website they say that they hope to start production in the UK in 2019 through something called GBVP (Great Britain Valve Project). Would be great if there could be some new production Brimar 6SN7 black glass


----------



## ilikepooters

tafens said:


> Not too expensive, maybe worth a try? Not made in the UK though, and they won’t tell where..
> 
> Interstingly, on the website they say that they hope to start production in the UK in 2019 through something called GBVP (Great Britain Valve Project). Would be great if there could be some new production Brimar 6SN7 black glass




I dread to think what the prices will be with UK wages. (How much do Grant Fidelity charge for Chinese tubes?)

Might do some volunteering to see if I can score a pair free when they start production


----------



## Scrith

Ripper2860 said:


> I've found most 7N7's to be quite enjoyable -- Frankie or otherwise. The Frankie does have a bit more extended bottom-end and more sparkle up-top. It exhibits a nice slam in the bass that really punches.



My testing today leads me to agree with you...the non-Frankie 7N7 sounds great, but dropping in a real Frankie reveals the non-Frankie is a bit thinner in the bass area and not quite as exciting.  Not bad at all though.  The Philco Frankentube I'm comparing it to was about $6 (cheaper than the 7N7-to-6SN7 converter I'm using, LOL).


----------



## ilikepooters

Giving the NEVZ brown base another go.

Sounded un-exciting last time but that was without any burn in, put it on the back burner since then and have come back to it today.
Tube was made 12/82 so quite late production, tube does look pristine compared to most Russian tubes.






Seems promising but i'll evaluate in a few days after more burn in. Has definitely opened up and sounding nice.


----------



## malenak

malenak said:


> So, I just got the JJ Electronic 6SL7. I am courious, I ordered 6SN7, but I got 6SL7. Is there any difference? I tried it, it fits into Lyr3 without any problem. And, it plays nice right from the beginning. It is better than stock. Did anyone tried JJ Electronic 6SL7? What are your thoughts?
> I am courious if the sound will change with burning-in.


After I realized I get 6SL7 I contacted the JJ Electronic and they sent me the right one 6SN7 tube. I have it for a few days and I must say, it is nice sounding tube and with LCD-2C it is nice match. Can`t compare to more tubes as I just have the original russian tube delivered from Schiit with the amp and this JJ 6SN7. Just want to say, it was not a disappointment. Not at all. I am enjoying JJ tube.


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## Scrith (Apr 26, 2019)

Frankentube testing day 2 of 2:  The Frankentube I found to be the best in my small collection (I have 3, the winner is one labeled Philco) went up against my 6SN7 champs today...

- Mullard ECC33.  The Frankentube has a an amazing sound, with incredible clarity in bass and treble, but this Mullard's bass is just downright magical, and the rest of its sound is top-notch as well.  I'm going to give the nod to the Mullard ECC33, but it's a much more expensive tube.

- Marconi B65 "Made in Holland" - These are close, but this Marconi has something magical about it as well...even better bass than the Frankentube (not really lower, just a bit better defined on ultra-low stuff), and is similar for the rest (maybe slightly smoother...something about it just works very well for my ears).  Given the choice I'd take the Marconi, but this tube is unbelievably difficult to find.

That being said, for the money, there is no better option than a Frankentube, in my experience.  They are somewhat difficult to find, unfortunately.


----------



## Ripper2860

Scrith said:


> That being said, for the money, there is no better option than a Frankentube, in my experience. They are somewhat difficult to find, unfortunately.




I'm pretty sure the one on the right is a Frankie.  If I didn't have 6 already, I'd pounce and make an offer to the seller.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-7N7-Tube...le-Plates-Tested-At-NOS-Readings/223493728419


----------



## Scrith

Shhhh!


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## Ripper2860 (Apr 27, 2019)

Sorry.  I'm mistaken --  none are Frankies.  Or maybe they are?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> The Frankies all have one thing in common (beyond the tall bottle with getter flash covering most of the inside and the mirror-faced T-plates): the truly round "racecar" bottom mica. If it's got square points in the oval anywhere around the oval's perimeter, it isn't a Frankie. That doesn't mean it can't be a good sounding tube, it's just not a Frankie.  I have not been able to determine any sonic difference between the versions with the satin-sheen black plate and the flat gray plates.  The black plates _may_ be slightly better, but any difference is so negligible it could easily be chalked up to sample-to-sample variation. And now just to make things worse, the Lansdale labeled versions of these seem to sound even better than all the rest. Don't ask me why because I truly don't know (and if I did I'd just make something up to create confusion and misdirection while I added more to my stash).   Lansdale didn't make these (Sylvania did), but I have been unable to find much reliable information on what exactly Lansdale was beyond a sorting/grading operation).


Dang!  Those are some nice looking tubes.  They look brand new!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> The Frankies all have one thing in common (beyond the tall bottle with getter flash covering most of the inside and the mirror-faced T-plates): the truly round "racecar" bottom mica. If it's got square points in the oval anywhere around the oval's perimeter, it isn't a Frankie. That doesn't mean it can't be a good sounding tube, it's just not a Frankie.  I have not been able to determine any sonic difference between the versions with the satin-sheen black plate and the flat gray plates.  The black plates _may_ be slightly better, but any difference is so negligible it could easily be chalked up to sample-to-sample variation. And now just to make things worse, the Lansdale labeled versions of these seem to sound even better than all the rest. Don't ask me why because I truly don't know (and if I did I'd just make something up to create confusion and misdirection while I added more to my stash).   Lansdale didn't make these (Sylvania did), but I have been unable to find much reliable information on what exactly Lansdale was beyond a sorting/grading operation).



*Show-off!!!!  *


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Apr 28, 2019)

My eyes would not allow my ears to enjoy such a monstrosity!!!  



bcowen said:


> This would then require an accolade for Tom which would be difficult, but credit will be awarded where earned regardless of the pain level involved.



I think a small weekend ad in the notices section of a small town publication in remote Saskatchewan will meet the legal requirement.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> I was thinking something like this.  Too over the top?



Might be a wee bit too man-crushy, but whatever floats your boat.


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## ilikepooters (Apr 30, 2019)

Been able to have a good listen to the NEVZ 6N8S '82 Brown base and it's quite a nice tube.







Over all quite a "tubey" sounding tube with a mild U shape

Bass extends real low and has a lot of heft, maybe a touch boomy but not excessively so.

Mids have liquidity but a touch recessed.

Treble has a touch of sparkle but never over doing it, not as detailed as some tubes but it sounds natural.

Soundstage not the widest but still quite open, more 3D than complete width.

Good separation of instruments. Good decay of notes.


It's a real powerhouse for bass heavy electronica, shame it's so rare and hard to find (on ebay at least)

*EDIT* i also have about 10 of the NEVZ black base tubes, unsure what year until i look through them, i'll compare once i get one in there and have it burned in.


----------



## Ripper2860

Got back home from being out of town and lo-and-behold, the Brimar 6SN7GT black base/clear glass had arrived.  Woohoo!!  I've been listening for the last couple of hours and my impressions are that it is VERY NICE.  Well balanced top to bottom, smooth mids, a bit of sparkle up-top, a nice bit of warmth, good bass and very good sound-stage.  A very worthwhile acquisition for Lyr 3.  I say do not hesitate if you can get one at a good price.


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Got back home from being out of town and lo-and-behold, the Brimar 6SN7GT black base/clear glass had arrived.  Woohoo!!  I've been listening for the last couple of hours and my impressions are that it is VERY NICE.  Well balanced top to bottom, smooth mids, a bit of sparkle up-top, a nice bit of warmth, good bass and very good sound-stage.  A very worthwhile acquisition for Lyr 3.  I say do not hesitate if you can get one at a good price.


As you know, they get even better with burn in!  I love that tube!


----------



## tafens

Wes S said:


> As you know, they get even better with burn in!  I love that tube!



Is there a difference between the Brimar clear glass and black glass, sonically? Black glass seem incredibly hard to find..


----------



## ilikepooters

tafens said:


> Is there a difference between the Brimar clear glass and black glass, sonically? Black glass seem incredibly hard to find..



Nothing in it really except for minute tube to tube variation.

Probably hard to find because the same people who pay for triple micas, gold pins, pinched waists and D getters in other tubes think the black glass makes them somehow special.


----------



## attmci

ilikepooters said:


> Nothing in it really except for minute tube to tube variation.
> 
> Probably hard to find because the same people who pay for triple micas, gold pins, pinched waists and D getters in other tubes think the black glass makes them somehow special.


Have you tried both? Thx.


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## Wes S (May 5, 2019)

tafens said:


> Is there a difference between the Brimar clear glass and black glass, sonically? Black glass seem .
> 
> I think any slight variation in sound might have more to do with bottle size/height, than color of glass, but who knows.


----------



## Wes S (May 5, 2019)

I messed up previous post.

I wrote - I sometimes wonder if the bottle size/height might have more to do with slight variations in sound, than color of glass.  If you notice the early black glass Brimar, almost always, have a tall bottle.  It seems the latter years clear glass Brimar, are often shorter bottles, than the black glass.


----------



## attmci

Wes S said:


> I messed up previous post.
> 
> I wrote - I sometimes wonder if the bottle size/height might have more to do with slight variations in sound, than color of glass.  If you notice the early black glass Brimar, almost always, have a tall bottle.  It seems the latter years clear glass Brimar, are often shorter bottles, than the black glass.


I was curious if these sound the same as those clear glasses.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (May 5, 2019)

Couldn't tell you, as all markings were removed.  I think I can detect a faint presence of red in spots, but can't really tell.  It was purchased forma recommended HF seller.  The structure of the tube seems identical to the red lettered ones I've seen pics of -- round bottom mica | Top round spike mica, dual round ribbed plates.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## ilikepooters

attmci said:


> Have you tried both? Thx.



Yes couldn't hear any differences. Haven't tried the unobtanium Brimar 13D2 though, that is supposed to be a different beast.


----------



## attmci

Ripper2860 said:


> Couldn't tell you, as all markings were removed.  I think I can detect a faint presence of red in spots, but can't really tell.  It was purchased forma recommended HF seller.  The structure of the tube seems identical to the red lettered ones I've seen pics of -- round bottom mica | Top round spike mica, dual round ribbed plates.


Can you post a couple of more pictures (i.e. the top of the tube)? Thx.


----------



## Ripper2860

Will do when I get home.


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## attmci

http://www.tubemaze.info/brimar-6sn7gt-gray-round-plates/

I believe is the one you have.


Ripper2860 said:


> Will do when I get home.


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## Ripper2860 (May 6, 2019)

Yep -- mine look like the tubes pictured.  My plates look much darker however, but it is likely the lighting or camera flash used with the Tubemaze pics.


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## attmci (May 6, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep -- mine look like the tubes pictured.  My plates look much darker however, but it is likely the lighting or camera flash used with the Tubemaze pics.


I tried to see through the smoke glass of a CV1988. But the glass is so dark. I find it has welded plate (grey round), and a O-getter at the bottom.


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## Ripper2860 (May 6, 2019)

@attmci -- Here are the pics of the unlabeled Brimar 6SN7GT w/ bottom rectangle getter holder...


----------



## attmci

Ripper2860 said:


> @attmci -- Here are the pics of the unlabeled Brimar 6SN7GT w/ bottom rectangle getter holder...


This is 100% a Brimar. I believe it should sound same/very very close to a high priced black glass one.


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## Ripper2860 (May 6, 2019)

Excellent!!  Nice to have confirmation that it is legit since it is my 1st Brimar 6SN7 tube.  Thanks!!


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Excellent!!  Nice to have confirmation that it is legit since it is my 1st Brimar 6SN7 tube.  Thanks!!


The 6SN7 id thread list all the Brimar constructions. 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/


----------



## Wes S

Another interesting thing with the Brimar tubes, is that the black glass came first, but has a halo or ring getter.  The clear glass came latter, but has the d getter.  It is usually the other way around, with the d getter, on the earlier tubes.


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## Wes S (May 7, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> @attmci -- Here are the pics of the unlabeled Brimar 6SN7GT w/ bottom rectangle getter holder...


Those sure do look like black plates. . .and I think there are actually a couple more variations of this tube, than listed.  For example grey vs. black plates.  However, every review, I have read, on any of the Brimar 6sn7gt, seems to be very similar, so I don't think you can go wrong, with any of them.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## attmci

bcowen said:


> Contest time.
> 
> Whoever can identify this tube first gets an all expenses paid trip for 2 to Belize for only $8995.00:


$8995 hmmmm.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Contest time.
> 
> Whoever can identify this tube first gets an all expenses paid trip for 2 to Belize for only $8995.00:


I am guessing it is a trick question, and the answer is not the obvious Frankie?!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Nope.  Good guess though.


188 is GE
The photo had been PSed.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Good eye!  And you're half right. It is GE labeled but wasn't made by GE. But no PS'ing involved (I have a reputation already for sucking at that).   It's the real deal.  But what tube type?


Most of the loktal tubes were made by Syl (to compete with the RCAs).
There are also National ones. So you scored a National 7n7?


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## ilikepooters (May 11, 2019)

7AF7? 

The round plates seem a bit of a giveaway, and reportedly better sounding than 7N7 types.


Question is, i'm too lazy to read up, but do they share same pinout as 7N7? or need another adaptor?


----------



## Ripper2860

7N7 and 7AF7 share the same pin configuration and are drop-in replacements for 7N7.  I agree that the pic looks like a 7AF7 but could be a 14AF7 if Bill is being devious.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Ding Ding Ding!!!  'Pooter wins!  I'll PM you my address, send me a check, and as soon as it clears I'll get your Belize tickets OTW to you.  LOL!
> 
> Same pinout as the 7N7 (so same adapter), just a lower gain version. But not much lower -- amplification factor of 17 versus 20 for the 7N7 (which is the same as a 6SN7).  Cannot perceive any volume difference through in the Lyr, probably due to the hybrid output topology. Interestingly, the 7AF7 has only half the heater current of the 7N7, but not half the gain  This tube sounds really good, and I suspect (as you suggest) that the round plates have something to do with that.  I still prefer a true Frankie right at this point, but I haven't put much time or really put this one through its full paces just yet.  I'm going to listen to it through the weekend, and then put a Frankie back in and see what develops.
> 
> @attmci , not sure if this was made by Sylvania or National Union. I suspect it's a Sylvania, but haven't seen enough of these around to come to any conclusion.


Bill - I am curious, what is the difference between 7F7 and 7AF7 ?
7F7 can be easily found on eBay. 7AF7 seems a lot more scarce... At least at the moment... (@Ripper2860 did you go to eBay and quickly buy ALL 7AF7 tubes?! )


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## Ripper2860 (May 12, 2019)

Zachik said:


> (@Ripper2860 did you go to eBay and quickly buy ALL 7AF7 tubes?! )



I plead the 5th...    

BTW -- 7F7 is closer to a 6SL7 than 6SN7.  7AF7 and 7N7 are virtually identical except that 7AF7s seem to be all shorter glass and round plates and are more closely aligned with 6SN7.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 12, 2019)

For those visual folks ...

7F7 / 6SL7




VS

7N7 / 6SN7



VS

7AF7


----------



## Zachik

So, bottom line:
7AF7 can be used with Lyr 3 (and 7N7 adapter).
7F7 should *not*, because amplification factor is way too high ?


----------



## ilikepooters

Earlier in the thread i think people used 6SL7 with no ill effects so 7F7 will be OK.

7AF7's do seem scarce though and a little more pricey than 7N7.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Yviena

@ilikepooters when you used the genuine melz 1578 in your lyr3 did you notice any differences between low gain/high gain ,and which was better in your opinion?


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Correct. You can put a 7F7 in the Lyr without causing any harm to the amp (same pinout and only half the heater current draw of the 7N7 / 6SN7), but whether it will sound good is a question I can't answer. I have a boatload of 6SL7's but haven't ever tried any in the Lyr.  Mostly because I'm lazy, and partly because that would require additional work which scares me because I'm lazy.


Yeah - I know how additional work would scare the hell out of a lazy guy  
Joking aside, if you (or anyone else) finally try 7F7 or 6SL7 - please report back. @Ripper2860 is anxious to buy every 6SL7 and 7F7 tube on eBay...


----------



## Ripper2860

My Lyr 3 tube purchases have been reduced considerably since getting the Valhalla 2 amp.  Other than my recent Brimar purchase, acquisitions have mostly been towards 12AU7 and compatible tubes.  Still love my Lyr 3, but VH2 has me smitten, as well.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> My Lyr 3 tube purchases have been reduced considerably since getting the Valhalla 2 amp.  Other than my recent Brimar purchase, acquisitions have mostly been towards 12AU7 and compatible tubes.  Still love my Lyr 3, but VH2 has me smitten, as well.


Already got too much Schiit myself, but glad you're enjoying your new(er) toy


----------



## ilikepooters

Yviena said:


> @ilikepooters when you used the genuine melz 1578 in your lyr3 did you notice any differences between low gain/high gain ,and which was better in your opinion?



For me i found early on in owning Lyr 3 that gain setting makes no difference to me so have been using high gain since then (planars), never tried low gain with the 1578.

Something else i find weird though but could be my imagination, sometimes when volume pot is lower than i would like for headphones i turn up volume on PC (software) and sometimes seems to make it sound better, only happens because i'm too lazy to get off couch to change proper volume pot  So Lyr 3 could be sensitive to input level or could be my imagination.


----------



## Yviena

ilikepooters said:


> For me i found early on in owning Lyr 3 that gain setting makes no difference to me so have been using high gain since then (planars), never tried low gain with the 1578.
> 
> Something else i find weird though but could be my imagination, sometimes when volume pot is lower than i would like for headphones i turn up volume on PC (software) and sometimes seems to make it sound better, only happens because i'm too lazy to get off couch to change proper volume pot  So Lyr 3 could be sensitive to input level or could be my imagination.



Hmm I see, as for it maybe sounding better with digital volume turned up could just be the age old debate between digital/analogue volume control, and how it's implemented etc.

I usually just run my software volume as -3db to account for inter-sample overs.


----------



## kiwivda

I prefere Low gain for IEM's, but for headphones too, 'cause the volume is more granular.
Today, after around 4 moth listening I've swithced out the Psvane CV181-T-MII MarkII Series 6SN7 for the BRIMAR 6SN7 GT made in 1959 in smoke version. And resolution and soundstage are incerdibles, simply amazing, and a bit mezmerizing for a tube rated 59 years old


----------



## Wes S

kiwivda said:


> I prefere Low gain for IEM's, but for headphones too, 'cause the volume is more granular.
> Today, after around 4 moth listening I've swithced out the Psvane CV181-T-MII MarkII Series 6SN7 for the BRIMAR 6SN7 GT made in 1959 in smoke version. And resolution and soundstage are incerdibles, simply amazing, and a bit mezmerizing for a tube rated 59 years old


Yeah buddy!  The Brimar 6SN7GT, takes the Lyr 3, to another level.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## mks100

Any thoughts on these?  Purchased locally this afternoon.  All have been tested.  Just want to make sure they are okay to use.  Thanks in advance.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## mks100

bcowen said:


> Nice boxes.
> 
> Assuming they're 6SN7's?  If so, yes they're OK to use in the Lyr 3.  If you forward some pictures of the tubes themselves it might be possible to give you some more info. There are lots of variations in the Sylvanias and RCA's.  Probably with the Raytheon's too, although I only have a couple different ones of those (one sounds quite good, and the other is pretty nasty).


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## attmci

Anyone needs junk?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/JOB-LOT-OF...AR-PX4-KT66-VT75-6SN7GT-GZ34-U12/202689367722


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860




----------



## attmci (Jun 1, 2019)

bcowen said:


> "ALL HAVE TESTED LOW OR ARE NOT WORKING AND ARE BEING SOLD FOR PARTS OR NOT WORKING"
> 
> ...and yet the current bid amount is $271?  What?
> 
> ...



$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
vacuum tube defibrillator

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vacuum-tube-rejuvenation.903823/

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> "ALL HAVE TESTED LOW OR ARE NOT WORKING AND ARE BEING *SOLD FOR PARTS *OR NOT WORKING"


Hmmm..... how does one use bad / dead tube "for parts"?!


----------



## mks100

bcowen said:


> Thanks for the pics!  The RCA and Sylvania are fairly run-of-the-mill kinda tubes (IMO). Nothing at all wrong with them and they probably will sound quite good, just neither are in 'holy grail' territory. I'm pleased to see (again, just my opinion) that the Raytheon is the T-plate version. That should sound pretty nice too. The flat plate version of the Raytheon is the one I hate...it's an ear-bleeder in my system.  I'd be willing to bet that any of the 3 will sound better than the (new) Tung-Sol that's in your pics. Assume you got that from Schiit with your Lyr?  It's not bad at all for an inexpensive and newly manufactured tube, but the ones you just got will quite probably be better.  Be sure and give them a little time to break-in before coming to any conclusions.



Appreciate the response and insight!  This is exactly why I am on Head-Fi!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Take it apart, recoat the cathode, and put it back together. Simple.


Would that turn a tube into a Franken-tube?!


----------



## earnmyturns

Zachik said:


> Would that turn a tube into a Franken-tube?!


More like a Broken-tube...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> The hardest part would be sucking on it enough after reassembly to get a good vacuum...


When there is a will - there is a way!


----------



## KoshNaranek

Zachik said:


> When there is a will - there is a way!


----------



## Wes S (Jun 2, 2019)

KoshNaranek said:


>



Damn!  That is a really cool video.  Thanks for sharing!  Looks like a bit of art and science, combined.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> And it all starts with a Swiss army knife.


I never leave home without mine.


----------



## attmci (Jun 2, 2019)

Who want this Brimar 6SN7GT?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-BRIMAR-6SN7GT-ORANGE-PRINT-1955-NOS-BOXED-AVO-TESTED/202689372449

The next step is a smoke glass 1988, and then you have to jump to a B65 before it will cost you $100000 in a couple of years.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Wes S said:


> Damn!  That is a really cool video.  Thanks for sharing!  Looks like a bit of art and science, combined.





bcowen said:


> And it all starts with a Swiss army knife.



Pretty amazing indeed, but if you pay attention to the 14 minute mark or so, when he tests it for music (radio) - it is all in French... I will pass - none of my music is in French! Guess I need US and GB made tubes...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> Thanks for the pics!  The RCA and Sylvania are fairly run-of-the-mill kinda tubes (IMO). Nothing at all wrong with them and they probably will sound quite good, just neither are in 'holy grail' territory. I'm pleased to see (again, just my opinion) that the Raytheon is the T-plate version. That should sound pretty nice too. The flat plate version of the Raytheon is the one I hate...it's an ear-bleeder in my system.  I'd be willing to bet that any of the 3 will sound better than the (new) Tung-Sol that's in your pics. Assume you got that from Schiit with your Lyr?  It's not bad at all for an inexpensive and newly manufactured tube, but the ones you just got will quite probably be better.  Be sure and give them a little time to break-in before coming to any conclusions.



I have found that for me, the reissue Tung-Sol actually holds its own quite well, at least against the similarly priced NOS and used vintage tubes I’ve tried. These include Melz, Foton, Westinghouse (halo getter), and also the Psvane HiFi UK-6SN7. The original Tung-Sol (1957 vintage) I also have is also quite good, just about equal but slightly different. I haven’t tried any RCA, Sylvania, or Raytheon yet.


----------



## Wes S

attmci said:


> Who want this Brimar 6SN7GT?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-BRIMAR-6SN7GT-ORANGE-PRINT-1955-NOS-BOXED-AVO-TESTED/202689372449
> 
> The next step is a smoke glass 1988, and then you have to jump to a B65 before it will cost you $100000 in a couple of years.


Or you could just buy the Brimar smoke glass, and be done.  Let the pure audio bliss begin!


----------



## attmci

Wes S said:


> Or you could just buy the Brimar smoke glass, and be done.  Let the pure audio bliss begin!


Not yet. You have to get a B65 metal base, then call it a day. 

There is a reason why these tubes are so expensive even in the early days......


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> I do. Can you buy it for me?  I'll PM you my address and be your best friend forever.



You may need a sugar mummy........ Sorry.


----------



## Wes S

attmci said:


> Not yet. You have to get a B65 metal base, then call it a day.
> 
> There is a reason why these tubes are so expensive even in the early days......


I will pass, as I am not looking for anymore top end extension, or brightness.


----------



## attmci (Jun 3, 2019)

Wes S said:


> I will pass, as I am not looking for anymore top end extension, or brightness.


Top end extension, or brightness?

Sorry I don't get it.


----------



## Scrith

Wow, my tubes have been magically transformed into super tubes thanks to this tweak:
https://pearl-hifi.com/03_Prod_Serv/Coolers/Coolers.html

Just kidding, but they look pretty cool (ha!) and I can definitely feel a steady stream of hot air rising from the tube now (haha!).


----------



## ilikepooters

attmci said:


> Not yet. You have to get a B65 metal base, then call it a day.
> 
> There is a reason why these tubes are so expensive even in the early days......




I've actually had 2 of these B65's in the Lyr 3, really not worth the money when you can get Brimar for 1/5th of the price.


----------



## ilikepooters

bcowen said:


> "ALL HAVE TESTED LOW OR ARE NOT WORKING AND ARE BEING SOLD FOR PARTS OR NOT WORKING"
> 
> ...and yet the current bid amount is $271?  What?
> 
> ...




Bangybang probably bought them all for his relabelling operation.


----------



## Wes S

ilikepooters said:


> I've actually had 2 of these B65's in the Lyr 3, really not worth the money when you can get Brimar for 1/5th of the price.


Amen brother!


----------



## attmci (Jun 7, 2019)

ilikepooters said:


> I've actually had 2 of these B65's in the Lyr 3, really not worth the money when you can get Brimar for 1/5th of the price.




You sure you didn't get yours from Bangybang? Then keep those for your next amp.

You are also welcome to post some pictures of these nice tubes.


----------



## earnmyturns (Jun 8, 2019)

I have too many headphone amps, 3 at home, one at work. Since I got my new ZMF Verité headphones, I've been flipping between the solid-state Phonitor XE and the vintage hybrid Apex Peak, while my Lyr 3 with a Psvane 6SN7-UK looked on without much love. I was edging to putting it on sale with a few tubes, but then just on a whim I plugged the D-getter that I had bought from @ProfFalkin to listen to Rhiannon Gidden's _There Is No Other _and now I'm stepping back from the edge, what great match for Giddens's voice!

More objectively, the Ether C Closed 1.1 headphones I was using sound a bit too edgy with the Phonitor XE for some material, and love the extra power of the Lyr 3 over the Apex Peak. The Verité are a better match to the lower power of the Peak, and they smooth out slightly the Phonitor's straight-edge dynamics. 

I'm moving to a different house in a few weeks where I'll have to rearrange all my audio gear anyway, so I'm not making any moves until we settle in, but that D-getter just complicated my ultimate decision.


----------



## ProfFalkin

=)   Glad you still like it


----------



## earnmyturns

ProfFalkin said:


> =)   Glad you still like it


Yes, I do, but I'm afraid of burning it out too soon, so I've been using the Psvane. The Verité headphones bring out a kind of mid-high glare from the Psvane tube, which is absent with the D-getter. With the C Flows, the difference between the two tubes shrinks.


----------



## Ripper2860

Marconi B65.  Very nice sounding in Lyr 3.  Nice bass punch, excellent/smooth mids, nice top-end w/o sounding brittle or etchy.  Nice soundstage, although not as wide as Melz 1578.  Definitely giving this guy some serious play time...




**Thanks, Stavros.


----------



## earnmyturns

Back to Lyr with D-getter and ZMF Verité thread: via Qobuz Sublime+, I found a while ago an unusual album, _Glass: Metamorphosis, The Hours_ transcribed for harp and performed by harpist Lavinia Meijer. I'm a Philip Glass and more generally minimalism fan, so not so surprising that I'd like this. But I had not listened to it on this particular amp/tube/headphones combo, and I must say that I'm liking it even better than on my other setups. Resonant low-mids, depth, separation between different simultaneously plucked strings. Verité digs out sonic delights from well-matched systems like nothing I've experienced before. Which, given how much they cost, is what should be.


----------



## attmci (Jun 9, 2019)

https://www.razzmatazz.it/en/marconi/2395-marconi-b65-brimar-6sn7gt-881521444634.html

No offense, structure of a tube is always more important than the label.


----------



## m17xr2b

Ripper2860 said:


> Marconi B65.  Very nice sounding in Lyr 3.  Nice bass punch, excellent/smooth mids, nice top-end w/o sounding brittle or etchy.  Nice soundstage, although not as wide as Melz 1578.  Definitely giving this guy some serious play time...
> 
> 
> 
> **Thanks, Stavros.



That is the newly hyped brimar 6SN7(GT,GTY), not a MOV B65 tube. The round plates are a giveway.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 11, 2019)

m17xr2b said:


> That is the newly hyped brimar 6SN7(GT,GTY), not a MOV B65 tube. The round plates are a giveway.





attmci said:


> https://www.razzmatazz.it/en/marconi/2395-marconi-b65-brimar-6sn7gt-881521444634.html
> 
> No offense, structure of a tube is always more important than the label.



Yep -- knew it was a Marconi made by Brimar.  I have a Brimar 6SN7GT round-plate as well and structurally, they appear identical.  It's labeled Marconi and a B65 (silk-screened on back glass and not visible in 1st pic, but see below) and while I do not know a lot about B65s (other than they are interchangeable with 6SN7), this tube does seem to carry a bit more weight on the bottom-end than my Brimar 6SN7GT.  Maybe it's just a stronger tube -- maybe it's MFG variances, who knows, but it does sound different than my current Brimar 6SN7GT.  Still a nice tube -- no matter who made it and what it's labeled.

Back glass markings.  Also -- No sign of 'Foreign Made' notice on the tube.  Do not have the original box.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Could be, but in this case -- NO!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 9, 2019)

I knew before I even posted the pic that you would come back with that.  I decided that this thread and my posts had a greater calling and I would not deny other members by allowing your anticipated response to deter me from posting.

Now excuse me -- I have a new audiophile fuse to install in my Lyr HP amp.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Now excuse me -- I have a new audiophile fuse to install in my Lyr HP amp.


Unless it cost more than the Lyr3 amp - it is NOT audiophile grade fuse!  FYI, in case you're confused by the hype...


----------



## Ripper2860

As long as I think it's audiophile, that's all that matters.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 11, 2019)

Ripper2860 said:


> Marconi B65.  Very nice sounding in Lyr 3.  Nice bass punch, excellent/smooth mids, nice top-end w/o sounding brittle or etchy.  Nice soundstage, although not as wide as Melz 1578.  Definitely giving this guy some serious play time...
> 
> 
> 
> **Thanks, Stavros.


Nice man!  Stavros, is the man!  I have bought 6 tubes from him, and they are all perfect.  I am currently using a NIB black glass Brimar, and it is staying in the Lyr 3, until it dies.  With the my 6 Brimar tubes, I have noticed slight differences in the bass with a couple of them, and just chalked it up to burn in.  Pretty cool, how that Marconi label, is facing forward!


----------



## Wes S

Ripper - What kind of getter, does that Marconi tube have?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 11, 2019)

Can't recall, really.  I believe it is a bottom rectangle getter, but not 100% sure.  I'll check when I get home this evening and confirm.


----------



## Ripper2860

Looks like I was correct.  Bottom rectangle getter ...


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Looks like I was correct.  Bottom rectangle getter ...


Cool.  Thanks for the pic!


----------



## ilikepooters (Jun 11, 2019)

attmci said:


> You sure you didn't get yours from Bangybang? Then keep those for your next amp.
> 
> You are also welcome to post some pictures of these nice tubes.



I posted in this thread a while back, haven't got the tubes anymore i sold them on, couldn't justify keeping them at the price  Post below...



ilikepooters said:


> Also i'll just leave these here.....




Also pretty much done rolling now, my dad is getting old and pretty much retired so started taking him fishing again which is another expensive hobby, think i've dropped £500ish on fishing gear, permits and bait in the last few weeks 

I've settled on the 6N1P family as cheap and widely available whilst sounding up there with some of the best tubes i've heard in Lyr 3.

Top tip: 6N1P's from the Anod factory sound best to my ears.

Look for this logo, looks like a hammer inside a circle type thing:





And of course don't forget the adaptor


----------



## Wes S

ilikepooters said:


> I posted in this thread a while back, haven't got the tubes anymore i sold them on, couldn't justify keeping them at the price  Post below...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow!  Those are some nice looking B65's


----------



## tafens

ilikepooters said:


> Top tip: 6N1P's from the Anod factory sound best to my ears.
> 
> Look for this logo, looks like a hammer inside a circle type thing:
> 
> ...



Sounds interesting! I tried a casual search on eBay but didn’t see any of these among all other 6N1P tubes with “black anodes” and whatnot 

Do you have a link to one or a tip on a more specific search than “6N1P anod”?


----------



## ilikepooters

tafens said:


> Sounds interesting! I tried a casual search on eBay but didn’t see any of these among all other 6N1P tubes with “black anodes” and whatnot
> 
> Do you have a link to one or a tip on a more specific search than “6N1P anod”?




I bought mine from ebay seller Nixie Store, can't see any more advertised but might be worth shooting them a msg to see if they can source some more.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/nixiestore/Vacuum-Tubes/_i.html?_storecat=12424677


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Who knows, they may still be going 20 years from now, even if I'm not.


Bill - you'll continue rolling tubes long after we all roll in our graves...


----------



## earnmyturns

Zachik said:


> Bill - you'll continue rolling tubes long after we all roll in our graves...


I bet y'all will live way longer than the last NOS tube. Or at least I wish...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Speaking of nixie tubes, I bought a nixie clock kit about 20 years ago (but not from Nixie Store, FWIW).  The guy selling the clocks also sold the tubes individually, and IIRC they were $5 each with a clock purchase.  I bought a dozen as spares, figuring the supply might dry up and the clock would be worthless if one or more of the tubes died.  Well, that clock has been in continuous operation for those 20 years (save for being boxed up for a few relocations) and every one of the original tubes still works perfectly. Who knows, they may still be going 20 years from now, even if I'm not.


I have always wanted one of those clocks.  Very cool way to show off some tubes!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S

bcowen said:


> Funny, all I ever get comments on when people visit is the $100 clock, not the $8k amplifier sitting beside it.
> 
> I see lots of kits available on Ebay mostly from China. Not sure how well thought out they are. The one I got was put together by a guy in the US. Not sure if he's still selling them. It'd take me a while to try and find his name again.


I would love to have the U.S. sellers info, if you can find it.  No rush, though.


----------



## Rowethren

Ripper2860 said:


> That I know of, we have …
> 
> 1x Lyr 3 failure (mine)
> 1x Lyr 3 failure which took out a focal headphone connected to the Lyr 3
> ...



You can add me to this list now... My T5ps are completely dead after an RCD trip, the amp still seems to work fine though. I even had the Lyr3 plugged into its own outlet with good a quality surge protector/noise filter, not sure what else I could have done other than the battery route which seems a bit ridiculous. Hopefully Beyerdynamic will warranty replace the drivers but considering how frequently the RCD goes in my office it has really put me off using the Lyr3 again


----------



## Ripper2860

Sorry to hear about your misfortune.  Hopefully it was just a freak event and BD will handle the HP repair.  

BTW -- at the risk of seeming stupid, what is an RCD??


----------



## Wes S

Ripper2860 said:


> Sorry to hear about your misfortune.  Hopefully it was just a freak event and BD will handle the HP repair.
> 
> BTW -- at the risk of seeming stupid, what is an RCD??


I would love to know, as well.


----------



## Wes S

I think I figured it out - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Funny, all I ever get comments on when people visit is the $100 clock, not the $8k amplifier sitting beside it.
> 
> I see lots of kits available on Ebay mostly from China. Not sure how well thought out they are. The one I got was put together by a guy in the US. Not sure if he's still selling them. It'd take me a while to try and find his name again.


8k amp? Where did you hide it,


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Hidden in plain sight...


Nice set up. Where is the famous clock?


----------



## Ripper2860

He loaned it to the NIST lab in Boulder Colorado.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> It got relocated to the bedroom a few weeks ago when my GE clock broke.  Hard to believe their clocks suck even worse than their tubes....


Are those Power Ball numbers? Let me take a note.


----------



## Rowethren

Ripper2860 said:


> Sorry to hear about your misfortune.  Hopefully it was just a freak event and BD will handle the HP repair.
> 
> BTW -- at the risk of seeming stupid, what is an RCD??





Wes S said:


> I think I figured it out - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device





bcowen said:


> If the RCD is the same as what we refer to in the US as a GFCI (or ground fault interrupter) outlet, the tripping is likely to get worse.  There is frequently an arc flash when it trips which puts a carbon deposit on the contacts, and the more it trips the more carbon build up occurs which causes it to trip more easily which causes more carbon buildup, etc etc. If you find it tripping more easily and more often, it might be worthwhile to replace it.  But the bigger question is why it is tripping at all?
> 
> Sorry to hear about your 'phones regardless.



Yep you found it, basically they detect small leaks to ground and trip off the power. The idea is that they are sensitive enough that if you are the leak to ground it trips before you do lol...

The problem I have is I work in a temporary building (albeit a very large one for ~ 3000 construction operatives) and I suspect the wiring isn't the best. We also get fun explosions when excavators cut through 11KV power cables . Although I would have expected the amp to be able to cope with small fluctuations (RCDs only need around 30mA to trip) and not fry my headphones, looking around there seems to be a few cases of this happening as well which is worrying to say the least.


----------



## ilikepooters

My RCD tripped the other day (g/f was cooking, say no more) but headphones were ok, they are HE-500's though so maybe planars fare better.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Spent some time last night giving the 7AF7 a thorough workout. The 7AF7 is very similar to the 7N7 -- same loctal base, but with half the heater current and a little less gain.  The difference in gain is pretty much unnoticeable in the Lyr 3. With the volume knob in the same place the difference in volume through the 'phones is barely perceptible. I have 3 different labels, but they are all identical inside. Assume they were all made by Sylvania. I haven't done a lot of research to see who the players were with this tube type. It wasn't a popular tube and there weren't a ton of them made, so Sylvania may (_may_) have been the only manufacturer.
> 
> I've read in some forums that the 7AF7 is considered a better sounding tube than the 7N7 and due at least in part to the round plate construction.  IMO this is a really nice sounding tube, and one thing that really stands out is the impact and slam it has in the upper bass. Better than the Frankie 7N7. But the Frankie excels in most every other area, and is overall a clearly better sounding tube to me. Perhaps those that prefer the 7AF7 to a 7N7 have never heard the Franken-construction 7N7. Although I haven't done any A/B'ing, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have a preference for the 7AF7 to the non-Frankie tall bottle 7N7 or any of the short bottle versions. Too much work to find out...I'm just sticking Frankie back in and calling it a day.
> 
> ...


Nice job!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 16, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Spent some time last night giving the 7AF7 a thorough workout. The 7AF7 is very similar to the 7N7 -- same loctal base, but with half the heater current and a little less gain.  The difference in gain is pretty much unnoticeable in the Lyr 3. With the volume knob in the same place the difference in volume through the 'phones is barely perceptible. I have 3 different labels, but they are all identical inside. Assume they were all made by Sylvania. I haven't done a lot of research to see who the players were with this tube type. It wasn't a popular tube and there weren't a ton of them made, so Sylvania may (_may_) have been the only manufacturer.
> 
> I've read in some forums that the 7AF7 is considered a better sounding tube than the 7N7 and due at least in part to the round plate construction.  IMO this is a really nice sounding tube, and one thing that really stands out is the impact and slam it has in the upper bass. Better than the Frankie 7N7. But the Frankie excels in most every other area, and is overall a clearly better sounding tube to me. Perhaps those that prefer the 7AF7 to a 7N7 have never heard the Franken-construction 7N7. Although I haven't done any A/B'ing, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have a preference for the 7AF7 to the non-Frankie tall bottle 7N7 or any of the short bottle versions. Too much work to find out...I'm just sticking Frankie back in and calling it a day.
> 
> ...



I agree.  My 7AF7 have a nice bass slam to them and if I were not to have heard the Frankendales, would be quite happy with the 7AF7s in lieu of 7N7 Frankies.  I may even put my 7AF7 slightly ahead of the non-Lansdale 7N7 in my setup.


----------



## TsKen

Does anyone know where to get the Octal LISST Tube for the Lyr 3? It doesn't look like Schiit carries it anymore.


----------



## ProfFalkin

TsKen said:


> Does anyone know where to get the Octal LISST Tube for the Lyr 3? It doesn't look like Schiit carries it anymore.


Officially discontinued by Schiit.   You'll have to look in the used market for one.


----------



## TsKen

ProfFalkin said:


> Officially discontinued by Schiit.   You'll have to look in the used market for one.



Bummer. I really liked the LISST tubes on the Mjolnir 2. Probably impossible to find a used one at this point. Thanks


----------



## Wes S

TsKen said:


> Bummer. I really liked the LISST tubes on the Mjolnir 2. Probably impossible to find a used one at this point. Thanks


I have seen a few pop up, in the classifieds, recently, so don't give up.


----------



## Deaj

Picked up a matched pair of 7N7 'frankentubes'.  There was enough detail in the Ebay listing pictures to be reasonably sure that they were frankies. The seller wasn't able to provide any information about the getters but the micas and plates were correct. They arrived today and they match the frankies that I already own in every detail. Better still they sound fantastic (as expected). Listening to Steely Dan's Aja album with one frankie in the SAGA and one in the LYR 3. Happy ears!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 20, 2019)

Yep.  Those are the Top Tier Frankentubes.  As I do all the Frankies, I have named these and refer to them as  Frankendales as they are Frankies from the Lansdale, PA plant.  Very nice -- listening to a  Platinum + as I type this!!


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep. Those are the Top Tier Frankentubes.


Sorry buddy, but only @bcowen can provide the authenticity stamp of approval


----------



## Ripper2860

And he has ….


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 20, 2019)

bcowen said:


> That's just weird.


​
Clarification:  I do not name the Frankentubes individually.  I name the tube type for easy reference.

Ex:
Frankendale = Lansdale Frankentube.
Frankie = The original non-Lansdale version of the Frankentube.
Frankimposters = Looks like the original Frankie, but mica is rounded rectangle (not oval).
Mini-Frankie = Sylvie 7AF7 that has a sound signature very similar to Frankie.

Now the 2x Melz 1578s I have named ...

The 1986 Melz 1578 = Melz Gibson
The 1969 Melz 1578 = Melz Torme

Those are the only 2 tubes I own that have actual names.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> ​
> Clarification:  I do not name the Frankentubes individually.  I name the tube type for easy reference.
> 
> Ex:
> ...


----------



## earnmyturns

bcowen said:


> It appears all the Lansdales this seller had are now gone. He had 2 gold-level pairs that I bought, and at least 3 pairs (and maybe 4) of both the platinum and platinum+ grade. Those were the first Lansdales I saw pop up in quite a while (6 months or so).


I got a pair from him, but I've not tried them yet because I'm in the middle of moving house and my tube amps are boxed at the moment.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 21, 2019)

I bought 2x Platinum and 2x Platinum + from this seller.  I think you will like them.


----------



## Deaj (Jun 21, 2019)

Perhaps my small collection of 6SN7 / 6H8C / 6N8S / 7N7 tubes is a bit limited in scope but these are the best sounding valve I have for the Lyr 3 (and sound really great with one each in the Saga and the Lyr 3). There are several standouts in the drawer: a pair of 1956 Sylvania 6SN7GT with bottom getter and (rare) staggered flat black plates - said to be on par with the Ken-Rad VT-231 (I have no point of reference for this claim but they do sound amazing), a pair of non-Lansdale 7N7 'Frankentubes', and a handful of early 50's Foton 6H8C's with ribbed plates. The Lansdale 'Frankentubes' (Frankendales?) are my favorite of these. ...right now (honeymoon has just started)... with the '56 flat plate Sylvania 6SN7GT's running a very close 2nd.



earnmyturns said:


> I got a pair from him, but I've not tried them yet because I'm in the middle of moving house and my tube amps are boxed at the moment.





Ripper2860 said:


> I bought 2x Platinum and 2x Platinum + from this seller.  I think you will like them.



The pair I just bought from him are Platinum. They sound really good! I agree with Ripper - you'll likely be very pleased with these tubes.


----------



## tre9

bcowen said:


> Just a word of caution: do not buy from BangyBangTubes (or Menifee Audio, same entity). One of the most prolific re-labelers out there. More detail if you want it over in the Schiit Lyr Tube Rollers thread, which will take you probably 3 solid days to read through.
> 
> For the Bad Boy, you might want to check with Brent Jesse and see if he has anything. You'll pay a bit more than Ebay, but his prices are still very reasonable and you'll get the real thing that's been tested.
> 
> ...


Jessie Brent is a scammer . Make sure you have a full refund / return policy then you will be covered. They stupid thing's Said on this post  !!  LOl


----------



## tafens

Deaj said:


>



These look very nice indeed, and would be very interesting to try! What do I need to look for to indentify these and tell them apart from other 7N7’s?



Deaj said:


> Listening to Steely Dan's Aja album with one frankie in the SAGA and one in the LYR 3. Happy ears!



Double tubing?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Wes S (Jun 21, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Is Jessie Brent the same entity as Brent Jesse?  Just wondering.  Perhaps you have some examples you'd like to share to back up your assertions?
> 
> When someone with a grand total of 2 posts jumps in and labels someone else's post as stupid it's usually just the sign of a troll.


That's what the ignore option is for.   I don't see the post anymore, but thought the same thing.  That avatar, freaked me out, as well.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 21, 2019)

Wes S said:


> That's what the ignore option is for.   I don't see the post anymore...



What's the fun in that??   



bcowen said:


> The post is still there, but I was totally unaware of the ignore option.  Let's see....Ignore @Ripper2860 .  Crap, didn't work.  Maybe there's a hidden 'anti-ignore' option?



Yeah.  There's an app for that!!


----------



## Rowethren

Okay now I am really pissed... My Lyr 3 has just killed my backup headphones as well, the sound has gone all strange and very quite, tried different tubes and amps so it is definitely the headphones. I had a stand-alone RCD plugged in just for my Lyr 3 after the first time this happened and it is the only thing that tripped meaning the fault is within the amp and not anything else in my office. My first pair of headphones are getting fixed under warranty but these ones were my 21st Birthday present and are 8 years old now so I am SOL with them... 

Really not impressed


----------



## Ripper2860

Wow.  I really don't know what to say except, I'm sorry.  Definitely reach out to Schiit support and see what they may have to say.


----------



## TK16

tre9 said:


> Jessie Brent is a scammer . Make sure you have a full refund / return policy then you will be covered. They stupid thing's Said on this post  !!  LOl


Biggest scammer ever imo was oldguyradiola. Think name got changed to Bang something. don't remember the. full name.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Rowethren

bcowen said:


> Sorry to hear about that as well. It would appear that the power-on delay relay is not engaging with an external on/off event (external meaning other than the Lyr's power switch). I'm just guessing here...unfortunate regardless of the reason.


 I don't think that is the reason, I assumed it was last time because it happened when the whole rooms RCD tripped but this time I had a single plug in one that only had the Lyr 3 on it and nothing else so the only point of failure possible is the actual Lyr 3. 

It is going to the UK dealer for investigation now but that means I won't have headphones (spares are the ones that got killed today) or amp for the foreseeable  not sure I will come in my office without them lol...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## timb5881

So over in the Vali 2 tube rolling thread, people are using adapters to use 6sn7 tubes in place of a 6DJ8.  So has any one here did the reverse and use an adapter to use 6DJ8/6922 tubes on their Lyr 3?


----------



## malenak

A couple of months ago I bought JJ 6SN7 for my Lyr3. Just right from the box it was better like the stock russian 6N8S. Well, it is kinda hard to say better. Let`s say, it was different. Better soundstage, better detail, better clarity, better and definitely deeper bass. But I was missing the euphoric moments from listening. The moments, when you simply have a pure joy from listening and you can`t stop and you want more and more. As I was thinking the JJ is better like the Russian 6N8S, the truth was, that russian one was little bit more laid back and I had this moments despite the fact, the JJ was better for the first listening. Then I had a hard time in my profession and less time for listening. For a few months I barely listen to my headphone rig. 

It is now a few days again, when I start to enjoy my headphone rig again. And I start to compare the tubes again. It seems, that my findings are again the same as from the first moments. But now, it seems like the JJ is changing. It is starting to be more enjoyable. So, my question is, it is due my brain is adapting to sound or the tube is burning in? I guess, the JJ has barely 40 hours of play and I am not able to tell how many hours was russian tube on the go as I bought Lyr3 as an ex-demonstration piece with full garranty, but I have no idea how many hours it was on the work.

Do some of you guys have experience with JJ 6SN7? How many hours it needs until its full potential? I am using Lyr3 as an preamp to Audio-gd C2. So I am letting the Lyr3 on right now, feeding with music for more than 10 hours now. Should I turn it off and again turn it on during the burning in? Or is it ok just let it turned on for a couple of days and then compare if the sound is changing?

Thank you.


----------



## tafens

malenak said:


> So I am letting the Lyr3 on right now, feeding with music for more than 10 hours now. Should I turn it off and again turn it on during the burning in? Or is it ok just let it turned on for a couple of days and then compare if the sound is changing?



I’ve askes Schiit about leving the Lyr3 on for long times or if it should be turned off every day to save its lifespan. They said no problem leaving it on all the time (if you don’t worry about the tube burning hours too, anyway).


----------



## Wes S (Jun 25, 2019)

tafens said:


> I’ve askes Schiit about leving the Lyr3 on for long times or if it should be turned off every day to save its lifespan. They said no problem leaving it on all the time (if you don’t worry about the tube burning hours too, anyway).


I have read theories, that the tube cool down process, is just as important as the powered on process, during burn in.  For instance, during week days, I run the tube 4 to 6 hours at a time, in the evening, and then turn off, when I go to bed, and repeat the next day.  On weekends, I then let it run all during the day, and again off, when I go to bed.  Also, I play music, at normal listening levels, while on.

I am sure others, have done something different, but this works for me.  I like to ease into it, and sort of wake the tube up, from it's long slumber.  Of course, I am talking about NOS tubes.

Also, I am either wearing the headphones, or checking the sound, every so often, while the amp is on, so as to make sure that there are no weird noises, that could affect the heaphone drivers.  For example, loud popping sounds. 

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Odin412

malenak said:


> It is now a few days again, when I start to enjoy my headphone rig again. And I start to compare the tubes again. It seems, that my findings are again the same as from the first moments. But now, it seems like the JJ is changing. It is starting to be more enjoyable. So, my question is, it is due my brain is adapting to sound or the tube is burning in? I guess, the JJ has barely 40 hours of play and I am not able to tell how many hours was russian tube on the go as I bought Lyr3 as an ex-demonstration piece with full garranty, but I have no idea how many hours it was on the work.



In my experience it's normal for the sound of a new tube to change a bit after it's been in use for a while (and how long 'a while' is depends on the tube) so I would say that what you're hearing is changes due to burn-in of the JJ tube.


----------



## Yviena

Hmm, my Westinghouse GTB, and foton 1950 has arrived, has anyone compared these two against eachother?


----------



## ilikepooters

timb5881 said:


> So over in the Vali 2 tube rolling thread, people are using adapters to use 6sn7 tubes in place of a 6DJ8.  So has any one here did the reverse and use an adapter to use 6DJ8/6922 tubes on their Lyr 3?



I've used 6N23P which is pretty much identical to a 6DJ8 and also used 6N1P.

6N1P sounds much better.



Yviena said:


> Hmm, my Westinghouse GTB, and foton 1950 has arrived, has anyone compared these two against eachother?



Quite a few here have both, can't remember specifics but i remember i enjoyed the Westinghouse more.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bigbenrfan99

Any recommendations for an adapter to use tubes that work with the Vali 2 (ECC88, 6922, etc) with the Lyr 3?


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Horses of different colors.  To my ears, the Foton lends itself well to rock and metal, and the WH-D is more enjoyable with classical and acoustic instruments.



As much as it pains me to say so, I agree with @bcowen, although the WH D getter is no slouch with Rock .


----------



## jambaj0e

Well for my Schiit Lyr 3 amp, I just bought that 1950 Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad-boy 3-hole for $75 and a Ken-Rad VT-231 Black Glass for $94, woo!

Are those good deals/good finds?


----------



## Ripper2860

Nice.  Both very good sounding tubes.  I'm especially fond of the Ken-Rad.  I meant the Sylvania.  No, actually it's the Ken-Rad.  But then again...


----------



## Paladin79

jambaj0e said:


> Well for my Schiit Lyr 3 amp, I just bought that 1950 Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad-boy 3-hole for $75 and a Ken-Rad VT-231 Black Glass for $94, woo!
> 
> Are those good deals/good finds?



Great finds and generally I have paid more for the Sylvania than the Ken-Rad but condition is very important. I love the sound of both but lean towards the Ken-Rad, I own several.

Both of those tubes are among those I will send to Jason at Schiit for his 6SN7 equivalent tube challenge to be held in September.  @bcowen has listened to both of those in the blind and correctly identified the Sylvania, but loved the Ken-Rad as I recall.


----------



## Zachik

Paladin79 said:


> @bcowen has listened to both of those in the blind and correctly identified the Sylvania, but loved the Ken-Rad as I recall.


@bcowen can blindly name the vintage and factory, too...


----------



## Paladin79

Zachik said:


> @bcowen can blindly name the vintage and factory, too...


In this case he was not familiar with the Ken-Rad but liked the sound.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Her name is Consuela.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 22, 2019)

Ok - if you insist.

Her name is Consuela and she is the mother of Bill's person son.  He denies that the child is his despite a Maury Povich DNA test.  Oh and Bill is also 2 years behind on child support.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> This is the strangest looking 7N7 I've yet seen. Kinda like it's wearing granny panties.    For $18.95 and free shipping I couldn't help myself and bought a pair. Maybe this will be even better than Frankie? Might suck too. Somebody should buy the other pair and either celebrate or cry with me....
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/143361646860?ul_noapp=true



Ok I got the last pair, if they suck I remind you of it every day for the rest of your life.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Got sockets in from seller 'gd-parts' today and they're the ones I wanted with the split contacts. That's what I was expecting from 'xulingmrs' as that's what was pictured quite clearly in his ad. But what I got from him is on the left -- the gd-parts socket is on the right. Still no reply from xulingmrs which is disappointing as much as I've bought from him. Seems I'd at least be granted the courtesy of a reply.  I'll be looking to other sellers for such stuff from now on.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/EIZZ-8pin-Octal-Ceramic-Vacuum-tube-socket-KT88-GZ34-EL34-5AR4-6V6-HIFI-DIY-2PCS/223446174271?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


Bill - I have recently found a great source for adapters. Meet @Deyan 
Deyan is based out of Bulgaria, his craftsmanship is great, he is VERY responsive, and his prices are very fair!
From now on - I prefer buying from him over ANY Chinese source!!


----------



## jambaj0e

phandrew said:


> tp://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-gui





Paladin79 said:


> Great finds and generally I have paid more for the Sylvania than the Ken-Rad but condition is very important. I love the sound of both but lean towards the Ken-Rad, I own several.
> 
> Both of those tubes are among those I will send to Jason at Schiit for his 6SN7 equivalent tube challenge to be held in September.  @bcowen has listened to both of those in the blind and correctly identified the Sylvania, but loved the Ken-Rad as I recall.



I actually live 15 minutes from Schiit, and I'm also a filmmaker. If you and/or Jason wants to collab on a review video, etc, I'm happy to work something out


----------



## jambaj0e

Zachik said:


> Bill - I have recently found a great source for adapters. Meet @Deyan
> Deyan is based out of Bulgaria, his craftsmanship is great, he is VERY responsive, and his prices are very fair!
> From now on - I prefer buying from him over ANY Chinese source!!



This socket riser is good if we want the tube stick out of the Lyr 3, right? Because it is kind of a pain to install a tube in a socket that is that far recessed.I just hope the sockets won't compromise the sound quality.


----------



## Zachik

jambaj0e said:


> I just hope the sockets won't compromise the sound quality.


They do not!


----------



## Paladin79

jambaj0e said:


> I actually live 15 minutes from Schiit, and I'm also a filmmaker. If you and/or Jason wants to collab on a review video, etc, I'm happy to work something out



@jambaj0e you may want to PM @Jason Stoddard and see what he says. The 6sn7 equivalent tube challenge has nothing to do with my company, it is just something I came up with to see how much difference folks could detect in such tubes, as well as to find out which ones people preferred. It is pretty easy to go by public opinion or spend $250 for a tube and have a preconceived notion it will be wonderful.

I will be shipping the concealed tubes to Jason along with tube extenders and possibly switch boxes with cables so people can A/B test the tubes. Jason does a monthly get together and the next one will take place September 12 as I recall and feature these tubes. I have sealed them  in such a way that it is not likely anyone can tell one from another.  Within the PVC are classic examples of great tubes by RCA, Tung Sol, CBS/Hytron, Sylvania, Melz, Foton, Westinghouse, etc.  I need to look around the shop but I believe I can send switch boxes that would allow switching between four tubes at once if Jason can dedicate four Lry 3's to the test process. This will be much easier than what @bcowen went through. He had to listen to one at a time and just go from memory and he did remarkably well.


----------



## Paladin79

jambaj0e said:


> This socket riser is good if we want the tube stick out of the Lyr 3, right? Because it is kind of a pain to install a tube in a socket that is that far recessed.I just hope the sockets won't compromise the sound quality.



The tubes I concealed absolutely need risers to work in a Lyr 3 and @bcowen was kind enough to build a couple for the challenge at Schiit. Inside each pvc pipe are also risers so the tube bases will all look identical. Both Bill and I used wire that was larger awg and higher grade that what is inside the tubes themselves, all sockets have gold plated pins.(they do not tarnish and you worry a bit less about corrosion or keeping them clean.) Many of the tubes are from the 40's and 50's and each has been thoroughly tested as well as the pins going through an extensive cleaning process.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## jambaj0e (Aug 26, 2019)

So I just got these Ken-rad vt-231 black glass tube for my Schiit Lyr 3 hybrid tube amp, except it doesn't say Vt-231 anywhere. It seems to have the typical physical attributes of this tube based on head-fi's 6SN7 Identification guide thread (Black glass, black flat plates with ladder riding, rectanglular mics with 3 spikes and line of small holes down the middle of the mica).

What do you guys think? Does the non-VT-231 KenRad 6SN7GT Black glass with the same layout as the KenRad VT-231 Black Glass sound the same?


Also, compared to my Raytheon uniline, the mids is certainly smoother and prettier. The bass impact is surprisingly about the same and doesn't really hit much harder on my Audeze LCD-2C.

My system is USB audio to Chord MOJO Dac to Schiit Lyr 3 hybrid tube Amp to Audeze LCD-2C.


----------



## Paladin79

jambaj0e said:


> So I just got these Ken-rad vt-231 black glass tube for my Schiit Lyr 3 hybrid tube amp, except it doesn't say Vt-231 anywhere. It seems to have the typical physical attributes of this tube based on head-fi's 6SN7 Identification guide thread (Black glass, black flat plates with ladder riding, rectanglular mics with 3 spikes and line of small holes down the middle of the mica).
> 
> What do you guys think? Compared to my Raytheon uniline, the mids is certainly smoother and prettier. The bass impact is surprisingly about the same and doesn't really hit much harder on my Audeze LCD-2C.
> 
> My system is USB audio to Chord MOJO Dac to Schiit Lyr 3 hybrid tube Amp to Audeze LCD-2C.


Any other codes on it? Three numbers anywhere?


----------



## jambaj0e

Paladin79 said:


> Any other codes on it? Three numbers anywhere?




I updated the post with additional images. I forgot to attach them.


----------



## jambaj0e

Paladin79 said:


> Any other codes on it? Three numbers anywhere?




"P 4 R" in a vertical line to the left of KenRad, and "M R" in a horizontal line to the right of KenRad.


----------



## Paladin79

jambaj0e said:


> "P 4 R" in a vertical line to the left of KenRad, and "M R" in a horizontal line to the right of KenRad.



With what I can find in my tube books that looks like a pre-war Ken-Rad, pre-dating their purchase by GE as best I can tell.

Mine say 6sn7GT and under that on the base VT-231 and I cannot begin to see through the black portion.


----------



## jambaj0e

Paladin79 said:


> With what I can find in my tube books that looks like a pre-war Ken-Rad, pre-dating their purchase by GE as best I can tell.
> 
> Mine say 6sn7GT and under that on the base VT-231 and I cannot begin to see through the black portion.



So that's a good thing, I assume? I know if it's before GE, that's good


----------



## Paladin79

jambaj0e said:


> So that's a good thing, I assume? I know if it's before GE, that's good


A very good thing lol. It has all the traits of a Ken-Rad as best I can tell


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> @jambaj0e you may want to PM @Jason Stoddard and see what he says. The 6sn7 equivalent tube challenge has nothing to do with my company, it is just something I came up with to see how much difference folks could detect in such tubes, as well as to find out which ones people preferred. It is pretty easy to go by public opinion or spend $250 for a tube and have a preconceived notion it will be wonderful.
> 
> I will be shipping the concealed tubes to Jason along with tube extenders and possibly switch boxes with cables so people can A/B test the tubes. Jason does a monthly get together and the next one will take place September 12 as I recall and feature these tubes. I have sealed them  in such a way that it is not likely anyone can tell one from another.  Within the PVC are classic examples of great tubes by RCA, Tung Sol, CBS/Hytron, Sylvania, Melz, Foton, Westinghouse, etc.  I need to look around the shop but I believe I can send switch boxes that would allow switching between four tubes at once if Jason can dedicate four Lry 3's to the test process. This will be much easier than what @bcowen went through. He had to listen to one at a time and just go from memory and he did remarkably well.


Can you share the test results? What's his ratings? I must have missed that.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 26, 2019)

All this Ken-Rad talk has driven me to roll a '44 VT-231 out for a spin.  It's time to get reacquainted with this classic tube.  

Maybe next week it'll be the 50's Westinghouse GTB D getter.

I love this stroll down Tube Hoarder Memory lane.  (I sure do miss 'The Professor' -- @ProfFalkin )


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Yeah, where is that guy?  Both you and I have been posting in the Vali 2 forum like we own one (well, I do now), so it's not like you actually have to own the product you're talking about, right?



Head-Fi rules do not state any such thing!
Heck, I have read impressions on gear by people that never auditioned said gear...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Aug 26, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Yeah, where is that guy?  Both you and I have been posting in the Vali 2 forum like we own one (well, I do now), so it's not like you actually have to own the product you're talking about, right?



Wait!!!  I've been posting in the Vali 2 forum??!!  I thought I was posting in the Valhalla 2 forum!!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## jambaj0e (Aug 27, 2019)

After spending several hours with the Kenrad 6SN7GT Black Glass (civilian version of the famous KenRad VT-231 Black Glass with the same sound), all I have to saw is wow! Really love the expanded sound stage, more luscious sound, especially w/ the mids that doesn't veil, and pretty darn good bass (Still have to EQ up some bass with 70hz shelf + 3 and 85hz shelf +2 in Equalizer APO). I do feel it has more musicality and it doesn't get as lost in the chorus that my previous tube, the still quite good Raytheon Uniline 6SN7GTB, can sometime has.

I've been listening to a mix of Pop, Kpop, hip-hop, RnB, jazz, and some classical on my USB Audio to Chord Mojo DAC to Lyr 3 amp to Audeze LCD-2C.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 1, 2019)

Yes.  Its reputation is well deserved.


----------



## jambaj0e (Aug 28, 2019)

Computer - - > Chord MOJO Dac - - > Schiit Lyr 3 hybrid tube Amp (Kenrad 6SN7GT Black Glass '44 tube) - - > Audeze LCD-2C planar magnetic headphone = My Audio Nirvana




Yup, I think I'll be satisfied for a while now. Just loving the sound quality I'm having with my audio setup. Smooth, luscious, musical, large soundstage, and impactful bass.


Coming from a Fostex TH-X00 + Chord MOJO, I was initially disappointed with less bass slam on the Audeze, but after adding some bass EQ with +3 on 70hz low shelf and +2 on 85h low shelf via Equalizer Pro for Windows 10, as well as adding the Lyr 3 hybrid tube Amp with Kenrad 6SN7GT Black Glass '44 tube (same sound as the coveted Kenrad Vt-231 Black Glass tube!), I've gotten back majority if not lost of the bass slam, as well as gained the audio fidelity and sound signature inherent with the Audeze LCD-2C.

I understand what they mean now with having "speakers by your ears" when it comes to planar magnetic headphones.


----------



## Paladin79

jambaj0e said:


> After spending several hours with the Kenrad 6SN7GT Black Glass (civilian version of the famous KenRad VT-231 Black Glass with the same sound), all I have to saw is wow! Really love the expanded sound stage, more luscious sound, especially w/ the mids that doesn't veil, and pretty darn good bass (Still have to EQ up some bass with 70hz shelf + 3 and 85hz shelf +2 in Equalizer APO). I do feel it has more musicality and it doesn't get as lost in the chorus that my previous tube, the still quite good Raytheon Uniline 6SN7GTB, can sometime has.
> 
> I've been listening to a mix of Pop, Kpop, hip-hop, RnB, jazz, and some classical on my USB Audio to Chord Mojo DAC to Lyr 3 amp to Audeze LCD-2C.



It is among my favorite 6SN7’s.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Can you share the test results? What's his ratings? I must have missed that.



The test consisted of Bill being able to tell which was a GE tube and place it at the bottom of the eight tubes sent. It was not so much a ranking. I know he did like the Ken-Rad VT-231 and an RCA grey glass but they were never rated 1-8.  We had a bet on his ability to spot the GE and he came very close.

That is more what friends will be doing soon, then they will go on to Jason at Schiit for a tube shoot out. Jason heard about what we were doing and liked the idea.

I will share future results, I have added some quality tubes to the eight and removed the GE and a couple others.  I am more interested in knowing what a fairly large group of audiophiles picks as their favorites of the eight, all testing is blind so there are no preformed opinions.


----------



## attmci (Aug 27, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> The test consisted of Bill being able to tell which was a GE tube and place it at the bottom of the eight tubes sent. It was not so much a ranking. I know he did like the Ken-Rad VT-231 and an RCA grey glass but they were never rated 1-8.  We had a bet on his ability to spot the GE and he came very close.
> 
> That is more what friends will be doing soon, then they will go on to Jason at Schiit for a tube shoot out. Jason heard about what we were doing and liked the idea.
> 
> I will share future results, I have added some quality tubes to the eight and removed the GE and a couple others.  I am more interested in knowing what a fairly large group of audiophiles picks as their favorites of the eight, all testing is blind so there are no preformed opinions.


You should start a new thread, and make sure no one here can post. 

I love the idea of blind test. Especially for audio cables and HDMI cables for I2S.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> You should start a new thread, and make sure no one here can post.
> 
> I love the idea of blind test. Especially for audio cables and HDMI cables for I2S.



I have conducted my own testing on headphone cable wire and was involved with blind DAC testing as well, in that test I got to hear 20 DACS ranging in price from $350 to maybe $7500. There were some more expensive ones that could have been put into the study but we had to stop somewhere lol. 

Often it is just for my own education. If someone says a tube needs to burn in for 100 hours it just makes me curious and I prefer running my own tests to see if I can duplicate the results.

Often it will start with someone making a claim..."I can hear the difference in connectors, or identical lengths of wire by the same manufacturer or whatever." I tend to say, that is wonderful! Prove it to me lol


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> I have conducted my own testing on headphone cable wire and was involved with blind DAC testing as well, in that test I got to hear 20 DACS ranging in price from $350 to maybe $7500. There were some more expensive ones that could have been put into the study but we had to stop somewhere lol.
> 
> Often it is just for my own education. If someone says a tube needs to burn in for 100 hours it just makes me curious and I prefer running my own tests to see if I can duplicate the results.
> 
> Often it will start with someone making a claim..."I can hear the difference in connectors, or identical lengths of wire by the same manufacturer or whatever." I tend to say, that is wonderful! Prove it to me lol


It's hard to prove..........Sometimes I have to run A/B test multiple times_ before I can tell the subtle differences._


----------



## jambaj0e

Tube rolling time! I just got this Sylvania tube, and the seller says it is the Bad Boys 3-rivet, but from 1950. So far it sounds good, even cleaner sounding than my Kenrad 6SN7GT Black Glass, but with just about the same bass, give or take.

Can someone verify that this is the Sylvania Bad Boy? What's the fuzzyness at the top of the glass? Anything to worry about?


----------



## Ripper2860

Has all the traits required for a legit 3-hole Badboy.


----------



## jambaj0e

So my Sylvania "Bad Boy" has the triangle Sylvania logo and "0 3 9" typed vertically to its right, as well.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## attmci (Aug 31, 2019)

bcowen said:


> If you're referring to the two little silver dots inside the top, that's just extra getter material that migrated up through the plates when it was flashed. Nothing to worry about at all.


*@2359glenn*
Glenn said that's the sign of well used tube. 

I have many tubes have the mark.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## attmci

bcowen said:


> Who's Glenn, and I assume you're joking?


The designer of the GOTL. I am not joking.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Looks like getter flash to me.


----------



## Ripper2860

*WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE PROFESSOR!?*


----------



## attmci (Aug 31, 2019)

bcowen said:


> Silver spots do not indicate usage in and of themselves. Brown spots do.


I am not Glenn. Ask him
*@2359glenn*
.


----------



## Ripper2860

Well Hell.  I guess I'll have to toss my Sylvania Chrome Domes.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Howdy!


----------



## jambaj0e

Ooh, I may actually like this Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boy better than my Kenrad 6SN7GT Black Glass. I can get impactful bass with EQ on both for my Audeze LCD-2C, but the mids seems a bit clearer with the Sylvanias!


----------



## MattTCG

If any of the regulars here have any Ken Rad or Sylvania that you are tired of and would like to part with, PM me.


----------



## 441879 (Sep 8, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> @jambaj0e you may want to PM @Jason Stoddard and see what he says. The 6sn7 equivalent tube challenge has nothing to do with my company, it is just something I came up with to see how much difference folks could detect in such tubes, as well as to find out which ones people preferred. It is pretty easy to go by public opinion or spend $250 for a tube and have a preconceived notion it will be wonderful.
> 
> I will be shipping the concealed tubes to Jason along with tube extenders and possibly switch boxes with cables so people can A/B test the tubes. Jason does a monthly get together and the next one will take place September 12 as I recall and feature these tubes. I have sealed them  in such a way that it is not likely anyone can tell one from another.  Within the PVC are classic examples of great tubes by RCA, Tung Sol, CBS/Hytron, Sylvania, Melz, Foton, Westinghouse, etc.  I need to look around the shop but I believe I can send switch boxes that would allow switching between four tubes at once if Jason can dedicate four Lry 3's to the test process. This will be much easier than what @bcowen went through. He had to listen to one at a time and just go from memory and he did remarkably well.



Very much looking forward to seeing how this turns out. Hopefully this can be done in a quiet space for real listening.


----------



## Paladin79

will f said:


> Very much looking forward to seeing how this turns out. Hopefully this can be done in a quiet space for real listening.



There will be one more 6sn7 equivalent blind testing once the tubes come back from Schiit but this one will be opened up to what are considered to be some of the top tubes around. They will be inside metal cages so they cannot be recognized, I do not mind sealing some of my own tubes in PVC but I cannot do that with those belonging to friends. A am building four identical class A headphone amps for the testing.


----------



## 441879 (Sep 8, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> There will be one more 6sn7 equivalent blind testing once the tubes come back from Schiit but this one will be opened up to what are considered to be some of the top tubes around. They will be inside metal cages so they cannot be recognized, I do not mind sealing some of my own tubes in PVC but I cannot do that with those belonging to friends. A am building four identical class A headphone amps for the testing.



I’m really excited for this. Even if the results show the differences are mostly between the ears, I love seeing real research. My best guess is that provided the headphones are decent quality, the seats are comfortable and the room quiet, some clear winners and losers will emerge. 

Great also that you’re building 4 class A amps for testing too. I’ve thought for a while I should build a nice tube amp for myself given my interests, but I haven’t done it yet.  Mechanical engineering isn’t the ideal background for soldering up an amplifier, but how different can it be from soldering tubing?


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 9, 2019)

will f said:


> I’m really excited for this. Even if the results show the differences are mostly between the ears, I love seeing real research. My best guess is that provided the headphones are decent quality, the seats are comfortable and the room quiet, some clear winners and losers will emerge.
> 
> Great also that you’re building 4 class A amps for testing too. I’ve thought for a while I should build a nice tube amp for myself given my interests, but I haven’t done it yet.  Mechanical engineering isn’t the ideal background for soldering up an amplifier, but how different can it be from soldering tubing?



Start with something like the Bottlehead Crack, they are easy to build and you can also put some of your structural skills into play. The electronics is easy for me so I concentrated on learning more about working with metal and hardwoods, oh and special cables and headphones I modified with new drivers and converted to open.

I believe we decided on Senn 800's for the headphone listening of the 6sn7 equivalents. The difference will be what is between the ears but most of the audio engineers involved in this process should be able to compare sound in other ways as well. Some folks who work in digital recording are helping to set up the sample files, and those are extremely specific. Think of some of the Chesky sample recordings on steroids. I believe on one disk they used maybe 6 criteria, this will be more like 25.


----------



## earnmyturns

I'm a very bad boy. Since I scored the local sale of an EC Aficionado, my Lyr 3 has been sitting sadly unused. I've even sold a few of my small stash of 6SN7 tubes  Still keeping a few 6SN7s, though, I can't yet face parting with the Lyr 3 or my other 6SN7 hybrid amp (Apex Peak). Advice?


----------



## Ripper2860

Since you asked...

Sell the EC.


----------



## Paladin79

earnmyturns said:


> I'm a very bad boy. Since I scored the local sale of an EC Aficionado, my Lyr 3 has been sitting sadly unused. I've even sold a few of my small stash of 6SN7 tubes  Still keeping a few 6SN7s, though, I can't yet face parting with the Lyr 3 or my other 6SN7 hybrid amp (Apex Peak). Advice?



The Lyr 3 is one of the Schiit tube amps I have yet to own if you do decide to sell it. I will most likely get one or a Mjolnir soon along with a Bifrost 2, the only non-tube product I am considering.


----------



## attmci

Do you know this famous IT guy?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254355351653?ul_noapp=true


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> The Lyr 3 is one of the Schiit tube amps I have yet to own if you do decide to sell it. I will most likely get one or a Mjolnir soon along with a Bifrost 2, the only non-tube product I am considering.


Tom, there are a lot of B-grade Schiit stuff at their website.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> Tom, there are a lot of B-grade Schiit stuff at their website.



Oh I know, I am just waiting for the best deal I can get on one and I have quite a few options. I just got done sending a bunch of things to Jason and I will see what happens once he finishes the 6sn7 shootout.


----------



## attmci

Watch out! Fake WE 300B is coming.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-300B-Tube-Base-Base-Only/392409037429

A 300b base (WE) was sold for close to $200.


----------



## earnmyturns

Not Lyr 3-specific, but a stream-of-consciousness comment on 6SN7 goodness -- Westinghouse Reliatron D-getter. Besides the Lyr 3, I have two other tube amps, Apex Peak (6SN7 tube hybrid) and EC Aficionado (all tubes). I also have a top-notch SS amp (Phonitor XE). Headphones are ZMF Verité silkwood, currently with Verité pads. EC Af is the most involving of my amps, and Phonitor XE the best at detail and impact. Peak with D-getter is neither as spacious as the EC Af nor as crazy detailed as the XE, but it is a beautifully organic, contained, non-overwhelming listen for working to. Respect to the almost lost Reliatron D-getter breed (I have one more for backup).


----------



## ligistx

So.. I guess its finally time. I have been borrowing a buddies Lyr 3 for a few months and decided it is the one I want, and now have...

I have a pair of Sennheiser 6xx's and Fostex TR-X00 and I love the lyr with the multibit and 6SN7 combo he had, so I just ordered the exact same setup. That said, I think it does the 6xx's wonders, but can be a little "much" for the Fostex. I love bass (thus the TR-X00 purchase) but sometimes I feel as though this tube just comes in swinging a little to hard when paired with the Fostex. I like the "buttery" sound the amp/dac gives and wouldn't want to lose that, but any recommendations on where to start looking in terms of a different tube for the Fostex specifically? Its not at all that I "don't like the way it sounds", I just think there is a more appealing sound to be had. I know this is all personal preference, but I don't even know where to start looking.


----------



## 441879

attmci said:


> Watch out! Fake WE 300B is coming.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-300B-Tube-Base-Base-Only/392409037429
> 
> A 300b base (WE) was sold for close to $200.



Just took a look at what some 300B tubes cost on EBay- yikes!


----------



## LoryWiv (Sep 25, 2019)

ligistx said:


> So.. I guess its finally time. I have been borrowing a buddies Lyr 3 for a few months and decided it is the one I want, and now have...
> 
> I have a pair of Sennheiser 6xx's and Fostex TR-X00 and I love the lyr with the multibit and 6SN7 combo he had, so I just ordered the exact same setup. That said, I think it does the 6xx's wonders, but can be a little "much" for the Fostex. I love bass (thus the TR-X00 purchase) but sometimes I feel as though this tube just comes in swinging a little to hard when paired with the Fostex. I like the "buttery" sound the amp/dac gives and wouldn't want to lose that, but any recommendations on where to start looking in terms of a different tube for the Fostex specifically? Its not at all that I "don't like the way it sounds", I just think there is a more appealing sound to be had. I know this is all personal preference, but I don't even know where to start looking.



More information *here* than you probably care to read, but key point is that not all 6SN7's sound the same, i.e - some are brighter, some bassier, etc...The thread also includes tube options that may be compatible with 6SN7 amps, although adapter may be required. Happy hunting!


----------



## tafens

LoryWiv said:


> More information *here* than you probably care to read, but key point is that not all 6SN7's sound the same, i.e - some are brighter, some bassier, etc...The thread also includes tube options that may be compatible with 6SN7 amps, although adapter may be required. Happy hunting!



I have hoar.. I mean *collected* a few 6SN7 tubes, none of the really expensive though, NOS and new. They all have a different sound, some are close and some are miles apart (the Lyr3 responds very well to tube rolling).

My favourite is still the reissue Tung-Sol with HD6XX


----------



## Paladin79

ligistx said:


> So.. I guess its finally time. I have been borrowing a buddies Lyr 3 for a few months and decided it is the one I want, and now have...
> 
> I have a pair of Sennheiser 6xx's and Fostex TR-X00 and I love the lyr with the multibit and 6SN7 combo he had, so I just ordered the exact same setup. That said, I think it does the 6xx's wonders, but can be a little "much" for the Fostex. I love bass (thus the TR-X00 purchase) but sometimes I feel as though this tube just comes in swinging a little to hard when paired with the Fostex. I like the "buttery" sound the amp/dac gives and wouldn't want to lose that, but any recommendations on where to start looking in terms of a different tube for the Fostex specifically? Its not at all that I "don't like the way it sounds", I just think there is a more appealing sound to be had. I know this is all personal preference, but I don't even know where to start looking.



Here is a list of the tubes that I sent Jason for a tube shoot out, all 6sn7 equivalent. There should be a write up on them in the near future from Audio-Head....https://audio-head.com/

*1.    RCA 6SN7GT   GREY GLASS    1942*

*2.    TUNG SOL    MOUSE EARS*

*3.    SYLVANIA 7N7 TALL BODY, ALSO KNOWN AS FRANKIE  1930’S*

*4.    FOTON 1954 6H8C RIBBED PLATE  (RUSSIAN)*

*5.    SYLVANIA BAD BOY, VT 231 WAR ISSUE*

*6.    CBS/HYTRON 5692*

*7.    MELZ 1578 1984 VINTAGE (RUSSIAN)*

*8.    KEN-RAD BLACK GLASS VT-231 WAR ISSUE*


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> Here is a list of the tubes that I sent Jason for a tube shoot out, all 6sn7 equivalent. There should be a write up on them in the near future from Audio-Head....https://audio-head.com/
> 
> *1.    RCA 6SN7GT   GREY GLASS    1942*
> 
> ...


I would love to read that. If you think of it please post a link in the *6SN7 thread* when it's live. Thanks!


----------



## jambaj0e (Sep 28, 2019)

Whoa! What a collection! I'm curious about that mouse ear Tung Sol. How does it compare to the Sylvania Bad Boy?

Do you also notice a larger soundstage with the Sylvania VS the Ken-rad?




Paladin79 said:


> Here is a list of the tubes that I sent Jason for a tube shoot out, all 6sn7 equivalent. There should be a write up on them in the near future from Audio-Head....https://audio-head.com/
> 
> *1.    RCA 6SN7GT   GREY GLASS    1942*
> 
> ...


----------



## Paladin79

jambaj0e said:


> Whoa! What a collection! I'm curious about
> that mouse ear Tung Sol. How does
> it compare to the Sylvania Bad Boy?
> 
> ...



The Sylvania Bad Boy is a very good tube that many folks like but my favorite top three from that group, (as well as a group of friends who rated them in 25 criteria) would be the Ken Rad black glass, Melz 1578, and CBS Hytron 5692 in that order. The Bad Boy and Tung Sol sounded pretty similar to me. 

That list I posted is not a ranking, it just tells which tubes were behind a particular number during the blind test.  I really did like the sound stage of the Ken Rad, as well as separation, attack, depth, etc.


----------



## tafens

Paladin79 said:


> That list I posted is not a ranking, it just tells which tubes were behind a particular number during the blind test.  I really did like the sound stage of the Ken Rad, as well as separation, attack, depth, etc.



It would be interesting to know, how would you say the reissue (new production) Tung-Sol compares against the mouse ears and the Ken-Rad? Separation, soundstage, etc.


----------



## Paladin79

tafens said:


> It would be interesting to know, how would you say the reissue (new production) Tung-Sol compares against the mouse ears and the Ken-Rad? Separation, soundstage, etc.


I own some, I will have to compare them. I want to say Jason tried one or two I believe.


----------



## jambaj0e

Paladin79 said:


> The Sylvania Bad Boy is a very good tube that many folks like but my favorite top three from that group, (as well as a group of friends who rated them in 25 criteria) would be the Ken Rad black glass, Melz 1578, and CBS Hytron 5692 in that order. The Bad Boy and Tung Sol sounded pretty similar to me.
> 
> That list I posted is not a ranking, it just tells which tubes were behind a particular number during the blind test.  I really did like the sound stage of the Ken Rad, as well as separation, attack, depth, etc.



Interesting. I A/B my Ken-Rad Black Glass vs the Sylvania Bad Boys, and I found the soundstage to be larger with the  Sylvania, and the bass-response to be similar, especially w/ the EQ that I have for my LCD-2C. I would like to try the Melz and Hytron, though.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 28, 2019)

jambaj0e said:


> Interesting. I A/B my Ken-Rad Black Glass vs the Sylvania Bad Boys, and I found the soundstage to be larger with the  Sylvania, and the bass-response to be similar, especially w/ the EQ that I have for my LCD-2C. I would like to try the Melz and Hytron, though.


Soundstage is one of many factors, and after going through so many tubes I would have to go back and check how each tube scored in what area. To be honest I want to say soundstage was divided up into a few criteria. I work with audio engineers who came up with their own samples and test procedures. It is not easy to think in a couple terms when 25 are evaluated.

Melz are tricky, and have a pretty unique sound that folks either love or hate but they tested quite well.
I love the CBS/Hytron for general listening. 

Oh and there are a couple versions of Ken-Rad black glass. One has to also know if you are comparing NOS or slightly used. I have several of them and one version seems to stand out IMHO. 

Were you using speakers or headphones, the same exact amps and switching back and forth?

At Schiit they used four Sagas and I sent them the cables, splitter, and switch box to go from one to the other easily. I am working on one more test for 6sn7 equivalents that will be open to all types of tubes, each hidden in a cage so nothing is visible. On the test I set up earlier, I was limited to tube shape, some of the Chinese tubes are larger in diameter and were not used. While speakers are a great way to play sounds for a group, I am building four headphone amps for this test, as closely matched as I can get them. Much of the music used in this test was recorded for specific purposes and you know that as each piece is played. 25 criteria on a 4 point scale, and a large group of people doing the testing.


----------



## attmci (Sep 28, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Here is a list of the tubes that I sent Jason for a tube shoot out, all 6sn7 equivalent. There should be a write up on them in the near future from Audio-Head....https://audio-head.com/
> 
> *1.    RCA 6SN7GT   GREY GLASS    1942*
> 
> ...




5, 8,1,3,6,2,4 Not sure about 7. So it's unfair to compare it to the others. 

Picture of 5 needed to confirm.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> 5, 8,1,3,6,2,4,7


Your preferences?


----------



## attmci (Sep 28, 2019)

Paladin79 said:


> Your preferences?


On my amp (not Lyr 3) according to my memory. I deleted 7.

There are a couple of versions of the TS mouse ear.


----------



## Paladin79

attmci said:


> On my amp according to my memory. I deleted 7.


I replace the solder in the pins on the Russian tubes myself, it helps IMHO.  

You did not test a Melz 1578, is that what you meant by deleted?


----------



## attmci

Paladin79 said:


> I replace the solder in the pins on the Russian tubes myself, it helps IMHO.
> 
> You did not test a Melz 1578, is that what you meant by deleted?


Yes, Sir. I have all the other tubes. But I am just using a pair of ECC35 now because they are cheaper than ecc33 plus I need more mu.


----------



## Paladin79 (Sep 28, 2019)

attmci said:


> Yes, Sir. I have all the other tubes. But I am just using a pair of ECC35 now because they are cheaper than ecc33 plus I need more mu.


I will have to look into the ECC 35’s, I may know them by another designation.

Oh 6sl7’s, yes they certainly are higher mu.

In the upcoming tests there will be room for single triode pairs as well, I have quite a few of those.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Your opinion is shared by at least one other guy.  Me.


I just got a matched quad of 1958 Fotons out of Russia. Unfortunately I may not get to them for a while since I am faced with multiple projects.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Be interested in your thoughts on those when you get the time.  To my ears they are very close to the ribbed plate versions.  I think the ribbed ones have a slight advantage, but they’re close enough I have no confidence in being able to reliably pick them apart in a blind test.
> 
> Edit:  my observations were with resoldered pins on both versions.




Yeah I recall your saying you thought them close to the other years with resoldered pins. These tubes look absolutely pristine and there seem to be plenty of them around. I am going to fix some for friends with Freya, either pairs or quads.


----------



## rtaylor76

I have tried a few 6SN7's, but anyone else try a 6CG7 or 6FQ7?

I have a new production Electro Harmonix 6CG7 with an adapter in the Lyr 3, and holy crap!

Booming bass, sweet highs, ballsy sound. The highs are slight subdued, but not too much. The depth and layers are killer. The lows with my LCD2C's are nothing short of amazing.


----------



## tafens

rtaylor76 said:


> I have tried a few 6SN7's, but anyone else try a 6CG7 or 6FQ7?
> 
> I have a new production Electro Harmonix 6CG7 with an adapter in the Lyr 3, and holy crap!
> 
> Booming bass, sweet highs, ballsy sound. The highs are slight subdued, but not too much. The depth and layers are killer. The lows with my LCD2C's are nothing short of amazing.



That sounds interesting! How would you say the EH 6CG7 compares to the reissue Tung-Sol 6SN7?


----------



## rtaylor76 (Sep 29, 2019)

tafens said:


> That sounds interesting! How would you say the EH 6CG7 compares to the reissue Tung-Sol 6SN7?


Hard to remember. My original TS broke. Fell off the table and glass breakagr a few months ago. 

From what I remember, the TS has more low-mid energy and it had darker highs and not the same kinds of layering and details. I need to get a fresh one to really compare.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## tafens

rtaylor76 said:


> Hard to remember. My original TS broke. Fell off the table and glass breakagr a few months ago.
> 
> From what I remember, the TS has more low-mid energy and it had darker highs and not the same kinds of layering and details. I need to get a fresh one to really compare.



Thanks for the info! I find the highs of the TS adequate and wouldn’t really want to go brighter.
Better layering and imaging sounds tempting though.

I almost lost my TS in a similar way, when I was removing it from the amp to try another tube.
I lost my grip on it and it dropped on the floor.
And bounced.  Luckily it didn’t break


----------



## earnmyturns

Hey non-Lyr 3'ed lurkers, I ran out of space for head amps and my nice Lyr 3 with a delightful Sylvania "D getter" Reliatron is barely holding to the edge of the island. PM me if interested, before I put it out for sale.


----------



## Zachik

earnmyturns said:


> Hey non-Lyr 3'ed lurkers, I ran out of space for head amps and my nice Lyr 3 with a delightful Sylvania "D getter" Reliatron is barely holding to the edge of the island. PM me if interested, before I put it out for sale.


It is black by any chance?  
The only thing I do not like about my Lyr 3 is being silver...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## earnmyturns

So long and thanks for all the tube tips! My Lyr 3 + some 6SN7 tubes have departed to new playing fields (too many tubes, too many amps, too little time). Still keeping some 6SN7s for the Apex Peak, but I won't be stopping here as often.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Paladin79

earnmyturns said:


> So long and thanks for all the tube tips! My Lyr 3 + some 6SN7 tubes have departed to new playing fields (too many tubes, too many amps, too little time). Still keeping some 6SN7s for the Apex Peak, but I won't be stopping here as often.



I did get a Lyr 3 and a few other goodies


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Paladin79

I guess I should maybe have a Lyr 3 in order to roll tubes in it. It is a slow process but I am learning.


----------



## tafens

Paladin79 said:


> I guess I should maybe have a Lyr 3 in order to roll tubes in it. It is a slow process but I am learning.



Fortunately Lyr3 responds quite well to tube rolling (especially in high gain; unless it’s my imagination the sound becomes more dynamic in high gain).


----------



## Paladin79

tafens said:


> Fortunately Lyr3 responds quite well to tube rolling (especially in high gain; unless it’s my imagination the sound becomes more dynamic in high gain).


I know several people who own them so I did not want to be left out. I do have other devices in which to roll 6sn7’s and equivalents. Some of which tubes I am about to get back from Jason’s tube shootout held last month.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## RestoredSparda (Oct 6, 2019)

Is this the right kenrad tube experts (the civilian version of the vt231)? Not sure what the CKR 12 relates to. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-JAN-CK...606737?hash=item4206e66fd1:g:Dk8AAOSwIVxdMidC


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 6, 2019)

I don't think so.  It appears to be a 12SN7 and not a 6SN7.  One of the pics shows a 2 and the SN7GT as opposed to 6


----------



## RestoredSparda

Ripper2860 said:


> I don't think so.  It appears to be a 12SN7 and not a 6SN7.  One of the pics shows a 2 and the SN7GT as opposed to 6



 Thanks! I thought it seemed too cheap.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## RestoredSparda

bcowen said:


> There's that, and then there's also this.



 It's been a long day. Lol.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I never trust a seller's description...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## rtaylor76

Ok, tried an RCA Clear Top 6CG7...yes! 
Layered, detailed, rich, not too sibilant...you can now tell the EH was going for the RCA gear top sound, jut not quite there. The RCA's are bigger on bottom and less sibilant and peaky on the highs. Although the EH's might be more U shaped and more air. The RCA is one warmish tube that is closer to the TS 6SN7, but with more details, layers, and less murkiness with still a warmish soud signature. 

I got a Sylvania 6CG7 as well. Nothing much to write about. Sounded closed in and dull. One of the worst tubes I have tried in the Lyr 3 honestly.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## rtaylor76

bcowen said:


> Great info. Thanks!  I like the RCA clear top a lot.  I ran across a pile of Holland-made Amperex 6CG7's a while back that I bought thinking they'd stomp all over the RCA's.  Nope. I like the RCA better. But only the clear top (side getter) version.  Just as with the RCA 12AU7, the chrome domes are a significant step backwards.


Exactly correct. I think they are side rectangle getters from what I can see. And also have the dividing shield between the two sections. I think only RCA had the dividing shield. 

Strong sound all around. Slight dip in the low mods, but hardly noticeable. These clear tops were stock in Mcintosh gear and now I see why. 

The later RCA crhome dome look exactly like the Sylvania builds. The clear tops are not as sought after as the VT-231/6SN7's, so 6CG7's are in quite an abundance of them on the market and are electrical equivilent to 6SN7's, it just requires an adapter. 

I have liked the older Raytheon 6SN7 I have, so I will have to try some of those. 

I read a review of the Amperex 6CG7's that said they were heavy bass and syrupy (typical Amperex). The review I saw, the poster liked to pair them with other tube like the RCA clear tops.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## rtaylor76

"The 6CG7 was unique in having a shield between the two sections. This was removed as a cost-cutting measure in the 6FQ7."

https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/

Later, RCA and others would label as 6CG7 without the shield. Some are labeled as both. In 1954, RCA came up with the 6CG7 with the spec of the shield. RCA and GE were trying to push to 9-pin miniature at that time.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> GE (how the hell did that get in my stash?)


Bill - we know you secretly use the GE tubes to listen to Britney Spears music on weekends!  No use denying...


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## 441879

bcowen said:


> Geeez, man. I told you that in confidence.  I feel violated.



we all suspected....  Not that there’s anything wrong with that.


----------



## rtaylor76 (Oct 13, 2019)

Most 6CG7's won't have a shield between the two sections.


----------



## RestoredSparda

Kenrad just arrived. It has some light burn marks on the top but I'm hoping it doesn't have too many hours on it.  I purchased it from a pretty reputable ebay seller, and it certainly weren't cheap! Excited to test it against the new production Tungsol (which I quite enjoy) and a few two hole Bad Boys.


----------



## KoshNaranek

RestoredSparda said:


> Kenrad just arrived. It has some light burn marks on the top but I'm hoping it doesn't have too many hours on it.  I purchased it from a pretty reputable ebay seller, and it certainly weren't cheap! Excited to test it against the new production Tungsol (which I quite enjoy) and a few two hole Bad Boys.


I don't think that those are burn marks. I believe that it is getter material that travelled up the plates during the flashing process.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Deyan

Hello everyone. I'm building something custom for the LYR3 and was wondering if anyone can tell me the diameter of the hole for the tube in the chassis of the amp.


----------



## malenak

I have to write some words about my JJ 6SN7.

From the begining after the purchase I was not somewhat impressed and there was also some review on the internet, that it sounds bad on Schiit Freya 2 or something. But here is my thoughts after probably more than 100 hours with it. JJ 6SN7 sounds now just awesome!!! I don`t know if it sounds this good immediately or if it opens up after some burn. Today I put to Lyr3 russian stock tube to compare it, but what a bloat. JJ is absolutely on another level. Its spacious, the soundstage is way more bigger, it is crisp, detailed, spacious, it sounds sweet and there is absolutely awesome subbass with LCD-2C which is completely missing with russian stock tube. That slam is ridiculous. It hits strong, deep and I mean very deep, but detailed and refined. With JJ I have a feeling that music plays around me and I am somewhere inside. With russian stock it is like music is playing in smaller sphere.

I can highly recommend JJ 6SN7. For that price it is crazy good!

If this is like someone said bad tube, I really can not wait to try something like Psvane. Any recommendations for another tube which I should try?


----------



## LoryWiv (Oct 22, 2019)

malenak said:


> I have to write some words about my JJ 6SN7.
> 
> From the begining after the purchase I was not somewhat impressed and there was also some review on the internet, that it sounds bad on Schiit Freya 2 or something. But here is my thoughts after probably more than 100 hours with it. JJ 6SN7 sounds now just awesome!!! I don`t know if it sounds this good immediately or if it opens up after some burn. Today I put to Lyr3 russian stock tube to compare it, but what a bloat. JJ is absolutely on another level. Its spacious, the soundstage is way more bigger, it is crisp, detailed, spacious, it sounds sweet and there is absolutely awesome subbass with LCD-2C which is completely missing with russian stock tube. That slam is ridiculous. It hits strong, deep and I mean very deep, but detailed and refined. With JJ I have a feeling that music plays around me and I am somewhere inside. With russian stock it is like music is playing in smaller sphere.
> 
> ...


I recently rolled the new production Tung Sol 6SN7GTB into my Feliks-Audio Elise driver position and am very impressed. I can't speak to how they'd perform in Lyr3 but they are inexpensive as well, may be worth a try!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Deyan

Thank you @bcowen it seemed smaller in the pictures. But I'll alter the adapter just to be sure.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 22, 2019)

Alright -- I'll bite!  Ordered a JJ 6SN7 tube from TubeDepot for $15.  WTH, right??


----------



## tafens

Ripper2860 said:


> Alright -- I'll bite!  Ordered a JJ 6SN7 tube from TubeDepot for $15.  WTH, right??



When you’ve had a chance to listen to it for a bit, please tell your thoughts on it with regard to the Tung-Sol!


----------



## Deyan

bcowen said:


> I just measured it with a metric caliper.  Bought that by mistake a while back 'cause us silly Americans only relate to inches.



They where of use after all.


----------



## malenak

Ripper2860 said:


> Alright -- I'll bite!  Ordered a JJ 6SN7 tube from TubeDepot for $15.  WTH, right??


Can`t wait to hear your findings...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Would that affect the sound?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Would that affect the sound?





bcowen said:


> Not sure.  Perhaps someone here that knows stuff about tubes can help though?



Yes!  Sounds better in my experience when pins are on the bottom.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I find them much quieter with pins up.


----------



## malenak

Alright -- I'll bite as well!

Ordered:
Psvane CV181-T Mark II
Electro-Harmonix 6SN7GT
TUNG-SOL 6SN7GTB

I should be prepared for the upcoming winter evenings.


----------



## tafens

malenak said:


> Alright -- I'll bite as well!
> 
> Ordered:
> Psvane CV181-T Mark II
> ...



Please do tell what you think of them when you’ve had a listen. I’m especially interested in a Psvane vs new production Tung-Sol comparison


----------



## KoshNaranek

malenak said:


> I have to write some words about my JJ 6SN7.
> 
> From the begining after the purchase I was not somewhat impressed and there was also some review on the internet, that it sounds bad on Schiit Freya 2 or something. But here is my thoughts after probably more than 100 hours with it. JJ 6SN7 sounds now just awesome!!! I don`t know if it sounds this good immediately or if it opens up after some burn. Today I put to Lyr3 russian stock tube to compare it, but what a bloat. JJ is absolutely on another level. Its spacious, the soundstage is way more bigger, it is crisp, detailed, spacious, it sounds sweet and there is absolutely awesome subbass with LCD-2C which is completely missing with russian stock tube. That slam is ridiculous. It hits strong, deep and I mean very deep, but detailed and refined. With JJ I have a feeling that music plays around me and I am somewhere inside. With russian stock it is like music is playing in smaller sphere.
> 
> ...


I had originally written it in the Saga tube rolling thread. I gave the tube away and the new owner likes it in Lyr3. The whole episode made it clear to me that everyone hears different things. For example, my wife HATES the Yggdrassil. I am not going to tell anyone that I don't know well what they are going to like. I can only tell you what I like in combination with people who are close to me.


----------



## Paladin79

Well said. It also takes a lot time and oftentimes a lot of money to hear a lot of different tubes and to become familiar with them. It can vary a lot with the quality of music and variance of equipment. Personally I prefer the Gungnir to the Yggdrassil and I sent tubes off to Jason to be played in the only Schiit tube product I have not owned, the Saga.


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## 441879 (Oct 26, 2019)

malenak said:


> Alright -- I'll bite as well!
> 
> Ordered:
> Psvane CV181-T Mark II
> ...



I’ve got the T-S and the Psvane so I’m looking forward to seeing what you think. I personally find the Psvane a little more resolving and dynamic, but your mileage may vary


----------



## malenak

Of course. I will definitely come back with my opinions. Can`t wait for delivery.


----------



## tcellguy

Looks like Schiit doesn't sell the Tung Sol option anymore, but instead added a JJ 6SN7. Does anyone know anything about this JJ tube? I actually liked the Tung Sol I got packaged with the Lyr 3. Are those not made anymore?


----------



## Ripper2860

Tung Sols are still made.  Schiit chose to change suppliers as it seems Tung Sol could not meet Schiit's volume requirements.  The JJ's are pretty well regarded as far as new issue tubes go and according to Jason, sound better.  YMMV, of course.


----------



## tafens

tcellguy said:


> Looks like Schiit doesn't sell the Tung Sol option anymore, but instead added a JJ 6SN7. Does anyone know anything about this JJ tube? I actually liked the Tung Sol I got packaged with the Lyr 3. Are those not made anymore?



They are still made and sold, somewhere around $20-$25 a pop depending on seller and quantity. I just got myself some spares from a place called vivatubes.

Now even leaving the amp on all day, every day, I shouldn’t need any more replacements for the foreseeable future..


----------



## LoryWiv

tafens said:


> They are still made and sold, somewhere around $20-$25 a pop depending on seller and quantity. I just got myself some spares from a place called vivatubes.
> 
> Now even leaving the amp on all day, every day, I shouldn’t need any more replacements for the foreseeable future..


I have been using these tubes as Drivers in my Feliks-Audio Elise and am quite impressed...may not be the TOTL but punch far above theiir weight and I am enjoying them,


----------



## malenak

tcellguy said:


> Looks like Schiit doesn't sell the Tung Sol option anymore, but instead added a JJ 6SN7. Does anyone know anything about this JJ tube? I actually liked the Tung Sol I got packaged with the Lyr 3. Are those not made anymore?


I jus wrote about JJ tube a few days ago in this thread.


----------



## tafens

LoryWiv said:


> I have been using these tubes as Drivers in my Feliks-Audio Elise and am quite impressed...may not be the TOTL but punch far above theiir weight and I am enjoying them,



+1 to that 

I started my tube path with the reissue Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB and the Lyr3, which, a year down the path I still have, use (just about every day), and enjoy a lot. I have tried several other tubes as well (new, used, and nos in the $50-ish and below range - I have a list on my profile page) but so far I haven’t found any that I enjoy more.

The fact that it is new production and won’t skyrocket in price any time soon is a great plus, too


----------



## nnordstr

ilikepooters said:


> Got a short response from Jason at Schiit regarding my heater current question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm so glad I found this.  I just put the ShuGuang CV181-Z in and I think it sounds fantastic after a couple of songs.  After seeing some of the discussions about current draw I was worried I had an expensive and rather light paperweight on my hands.


----------



## Armaegis

Does anyone have a LISST that they'd be willing to sell/trade/etc? 
I'm thinking I'll probably sell my Lyr3 soon, but just want to try out the LISST before I do.


----------



## malenak

My experience with some tubes after a few weeks of burning and long listening.

JJ 6SN7 - Great tube! It sounds like the scene is closer to listener. Vocals are very intimate. I don`t know why, but I love this tube. It has specific tonality, which is very fun to listen to. It has great dynamic range. You can hear subbas with this one and highs are also more dominant. The sounds is full and sweet.

Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB - Better soundstage like JJ. It is more spacious sound with nice depth. It sounds very nice. Actually, my first thoughts was great. It has the ability of the wow factor for the first moments. But. I was boring after longer listening. There is missing something which is making my LCD-2C sounds amazing during long sessions. I really was bored with this tube. It sounds kind of dry for me.

PSVane CV181T Mark II - This tube has everything! It has that magic which delivers my JJ. That fun factor. And it has very nice soundstage and spacious sound like the Tung-Sol. So it seems like when you basically combine JJ with TS, voala PsVane. There is really no bad with this bulb. It just sounds awesome in every area. Great detail, great dynamics, great tonality, great soundstage. I am very happy with this one. This one is definitely a great choice! And it sounds amazing after a few hours.


----------



## Paladin79

malenak said:


> My experience with some tubes after a few weeks of burning and long listening.
> 
> JJ 6SN7 - Great tube! It sounds like the scene is closer to listener. Vocals are very intimate. I don`t know why, but I love this tube. It has specific tonality, which is very fun to listen to. It has great dynamic range. You can hear subbas with this one and highs are also more dominant. The sounds is full and sweet.
> 
> ...



I just opened a box with a Freya plus inside and it has some of the new JJ's in it so I hope to try one or two myself in the next couple days. I have extra quads of the tung sols I may put back in the box before it becomes a Christmas present, if I like the JJ's better.


----------



## malenak

Paladin79 said:


> I just opened a box with a Freya plus inside and it has some of the new JJ's in it so I hope to try one or two myself in the next couple days. I have extra quads of the tung sols I may put back in the box before it becomes a Christmas present, if I like the JJ's better.


Who knows, maybe you will like Tung-Sols more. For me, Tung-Sol is better sounding for the first impression. But for longer listening JJ is doing some magic with my LCD-2C (or with my brain).


----------



## Paladin79 (Dec 7, 2019)

I have some pretty specific likes and dislikes in 6sn7's and equivalents and I can get away with using many different tubes on the left side of the Freya plus so it is always good to have some matched pairs around for that.  As far as single tubes in the Lyr 3 I lean more toward American and Russian tubes from many years ago. Melz 1578 from 1963 and Black Glass V-231 Ken-Rad are among my favorites. Jason speaks highly of the JJ's so I figured I would at least give them a listen since I have a quad laying around.

Ok maybe with some cooking the JJ's will improve, I should send a couple to @bcowen and seal my views in an envelope so as not to cloud his impression.


----------



## malenak

I don`t know if this is my different brain mood mode today, but the PSVane CV181T Mark II sounds amazing right now for me. It absolutely outblows the others. It is like the Lyr3 is totally different amp with thus tube comparing to my others bulbs. Its soundstage is just amazing. I newer knew, my LCD-2C can sounds this open. I am sometimes rotating myself as I was thinking something is happening behind me. No, it cames from headphones. Amazing!


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## Ripper2860 (Jan 27, 2020)

malenak said:


> I don`t know if this is my different brain mood mode today, but the PSVane CV181T Mark II sounds amazing right now for me. It absolutely outblows the others. It is like the Lyr3 is totally different amp with thus tube comparing to my others bulbs. Its soundstage is just amazing. I newer knew, my LCD-2C can sounds this open. I am sometimes rotating myself as I was thinking something is happening behind me. No, it cames from headphones. Amazing!



Bartender -- I'll have what he's having.


----------



## tafens

malenak said:


> I don`t know if this is my different brain mood mode today, but the PSVane CV181T Mark II sounds amazing right now for me. It absolutely outblows the others. It is like the Lyr3 is totally different amp with thus tube comparing to my others bulbs. Its soundstage is just amazing. I newer knew, my LCD-2C can sounds this open. I am sometimes rotating myself as I was thinking something is happening behind me. No, it cames from headphones. Amazing!





Ripper2860 said:


> Bartender -- I'll have some of what he's having.



Hey Barkeep - Make that two! 

That and the HD660S are now on my short-short list of audio gear to get


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Dec 15, 2019)

See what you've done with your darn *TUBE HOARDING*??!!  

No, wait!!  My $80 investment is now worth at least $225!!  *Thank you, Bill!!! *


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

There are those that derive a certain amount of pleasure by living dangerously.  I am not one of those.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## G0rt

Just got my new 6922/6SN7 adaptor on the mail, my third for the Lyr3, others being WE396a/6SN7 & ECC40/6SN7. I can now roll nearly my entire (small) hoard into Lyr. 

A triode is a triode is a triode...

Today, a Brimar 6BQ7A, and Aurah's Judith Martin's vocals sound especially enticing, and Marc's guitars are timbe-perfect. I've played guitars my whole life, so I notice.

I tried a Gold Lion earlier, and it sounded a bit tizzzy on top. Damn, but I don't think it's quite broken in, yet.

Fire bottles are the tits. So to speak.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## G0rt

bcowen said:


> I haven't tried the Brimar 6BQ7 in the Lyr (only the Vali). Pretty sure I have a 6922/6SN7 adapter somewhere...time to go paw through the adapter, um, _collection_.
> 
> 
> 
> ROFL!   These must be male tubes then:



Are those bottles being robbed?!

Slowly building my Holy Schiit Adapter Kit, with a 12A?7/6SN7 incoming. The single hole tube roll architecture just makes Lyr3 a natural Whack-a-Mole.

Most bottles I've tried are at least listenable, and some are outrageously good, like Brimars and Philips and ...

Don't know where the tits expression came from, but it's obvious that without them, life might well be pointless.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## roadcykler

After much reading, research, and hand wringing, I pulled the trigger on a Lyr 3 with the 4490 DAC. Currently scheduled to be here on the 8th and I'm quite excited. Plan on listening with the stock tube for a while and then maybe pick up another one but there are so many choices and associated opinions that it's a little overwhelming.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 19, 2020)

Welcome aboard.  I am confident that you will be exceedingly happy with your purchase.  I am also confident that when the time comes, you will get plenty of advice on tubes, but here goes mine ...

1. Enjoy the music
2. When it's tube-rolling time, pick at max 5 of the top recommended tubes (Yes, I and many have 100+ tubes, but you know what?  We typically only listen to 2 - 3 tops, so learn from our exploits/mistakes!!)

-- And most importantly --

3. Enjoy the music.


----------



## malenak

Just a quick note, which should be taken with a little grain of salt. I didn't like the original russian stock tube with Audeze LCD-2C. Only sometimes, it has some nice analogue quality. But with Meze Empyrean, it sounds surprisingly good. Not the best clarity or spaciousness. But it is fun and it slams!



roadcykler said:


> After much reading, research, and hand wringing, I pulled the trigger on a Lyr 3 with the 4490 DAC. Currently scheduled to be here on the 8th and I'm quite excited. Plan on listening with the stock tube for a while and then maybe pick up another one but there are so many choices and associated opinions that it's a little overwhelming.


Ergh, I have the 4490 DAC card in Lyr 3 and it is meh... I cant recommend this option.


----------



## havagr8da

roadcykler said:


> After much reading, research, and hand wringing, I pulled the trigger on a Lyr 3 with the 4490 DAC. Currently scheduled to be here on the 8th and I'm quite excited. Plan on listening with the stock tube for a while and then maybe pick up another one but there are so many choices and associated opinions that it's a little overwhelming.



Congratulations, I also got one a week ago and have to say I just can't stop listening to it. What a great piece of gear! This forum is full of a lot of wonderful advice and has been very helpful. I know it sounds a bit cliche but the Lyr 3 has breathed new life into all the music I listen to. I really can't get over how good it sounds. Most impressive for me is the ability it lends my ear to listen for hours on end. Also I get a bit of flashback effect of "oh I remember when music sounded like this" pre digital days. Of course though with the added benefit of advancement in headphones that flashback is amended with a "but never quite this good".



Ripper2860 said:


> Welcome aboard.  I am confident that you will be exceedingly happy with your purchase.  I am confident that when the time comes, you will get plenty of advice on tubes, but here goes mine ...
> 
> 1. Enjoy the music
> 2. When it's tube-rolling time, pick at max 5 of the top recommended tubes (Yes, I and many have 100+ tubes, but you know what?  We typically only listen to 2 - 3 tops, so learn from our exploits/mistakes!!)
> ...



Great advice!
And thanks to all the wise sages on this forum for their opinions and suggestions. It is greatly appreciated.


----------



## roadcykler (Jan 4, 2020)

malenak said:


> Just a quick note, which should be taken with a little grain of salt. I didn't like the original russian stock tube with Audeze LCD-2C. Only sometimes, it has some nice analogue quality. But with Meze Empyrean, it sounds surprisingly good. Not the best clarity or spaciousness. But it is fun and it slams!
> 
> 
> Ergh, I have the 4490 DAC card in Lyr 3 and it is meh... I cant recommend this option.



Now you tell me (j/k). Since I've never heard it and won't be doing an A-B comparison, I'm sure it will be fine. They wouldn't sell them if people thought they didn't sound good. Besides, if it turns out that I think there is something missing, I can always get the multi-bit card later.


----------



## malenak (Jan 5, 2020)

roadcykler said:


> Now you tell me (j/k). Since I've never heard it and won't be doing an A-B comparison, I'm sure it will be fine. They wouldn't sell them if people thought they didn't sound good. Besides, if it turns out that I think there is something missing, I can always get the multi-bit card later.


It is probably not a fair comparison, but I can compare only with my Chord 2Qute. And compared to 2Qute, my 4490 card in Lyr3 sounds like compressed. It is lifeless and boring. 2Qute really is on another level.

EDIT: So, I just made a quick comparison between 2Qute and 4490 card in Lyr3. 4490 sounds like I said compressed. It is closed, muddy, missing details and nuances. Also soundstage, airiness and separation is bad. Their difference is night and day. Again, I simply can`t recommend 4490 card. Even my Audio-gd R2R11 in the past sounds better than this card. Otherwise, Lyr3 is great as preamp.


----------



## G0rt

havagr8da said:


> Congratulations, I also got one a week ago and have to say I just can't stop listening to it. What a great piece of gear! This forum is full of a lot of wonderful advice and has been very helpful. I know it sounds a bit cliche but the Lyr 3 has breathed new life into all the music I listen to. I really can't get over how good it sounds. Most impressive for me is the ability it lends my ear to listen for hours on end. Also I get a bit of flashback effect of "oh I remember when music sounded like this" pre digital days. Of course though with the added benefit of advancement in headphones that flashback is amended with a "but never quite this good".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It really is an amazing device, isn't it?!

And flexible. A while back, I opined that tube rolling might contribute something like the last 1% or so. I now admit it might be rather more, some 5-10% at least.

A posh Brimar CV1988 makes the Lyr3 perfect for HD700 here. I rolled in a Philips ECC40 and it's now juicy with HD800/SDR.

I have other bottles and other adaptors, but the Lyr3 makes things work no matter how I roll. So good.


----------



## tafens

G0rt said:


> It really is an amazing device, isn't it?!
> 
> And flexible. A while back, I opined that tube rolling might contribute something like the last 1% or so. I now admit it might be rather more, some 5-10% at least.
> 
> ...



Hard to say percentage-wise, but the tube can alter sound quite a lot (to my ears at least). From almost anemic boring (using a 1970 MELZ 1578) to full of euphonic musical thumping goodness (using a reissue Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB).

Before I got Lyr3 (my first amp with tubes) I was a bit concerned that tube rolling would have only marginal effect, and was on the fence about getting a tube based amp for some time. When the Lyr3 was released however, I decided it was time to try (it having only one tube made the decision easier, as buying new tubes for it becomes that much cheaper and no worries about matched pairs and such).

Haven’t regretted it a single second


----------



## tomina666

Hi guys,
I recently bought Hifiman Ananda - super headphones with a great price - many details and very comfortable. I have an amp / dac Chord Mojo. I want a better amp / dac and get the most out of the headphones. Chord Hugo2 is too expensive for me and I'm looking at Schiit kits - I'd like to try a tube. Will Lyr 3 DAC 4490 ok ?? Does anyone have this combination? Thanks


----------



## tafens

tomina666 said:


> Hi guys,
> I recently bought Hifiman Ananda - super headphones with a great price - many details and very comfortable. I have an amp / dac Chord Mojo. I want a better amp / dac and get the most out of the headphones. Chord Hugo2 is too expensive for me and I'm looking at Schiit kits - I'd like to try a tube. Will Lyr 3 DAC 4490 ok ?? Does anyone have this combination? Thanks



Lyr3 is a great amp, and the 4490 dac card should be a great start (I haven’t used that card myself though).

Lyr3 does not reach its limit with the internal cards though, but is also able to scale up with better dacs. I have heard great improvements going from multibit card to the Bifrost2, and I have read that it will even take advantage of the resolution of Yggdrasil as well.


----------



## ProfFalkin

tafens said:


> I have read that it will even take advantage of the resolution of Yggdrasil as well.


It most definitely will.


----------



## G0rt

ProfFalkin said:


> It most definitely will.



Schiit.

I have OG Gumby and find it good.

But should I scale back to Bifrost2 because it's newer, smaller and beautiful, OR

Scale up to Yggdrasil because it's big, bad, bold and bulky OR

Stand pat, remembering the ancient engineering axiom that the Better is the sworn enemy of the Good Enough?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 6, 2020)

If you are hell-bent on Yggy then hold out.  Something is in the works with Yggy.  I can sense it.  The even better True MB comment from Jason is a hint that better things are coming to their statement DAC.

As it relates to Bifrost 2.  It's been referred to as Yggy Jr by several for a reason.  


** You've likely seen the resale value of current Schiit gear.  Even if you change your mind after BF2 and decide on an Yggy later, you'd likely get 90% of your investment back!


----------



## tomina666

Guys...my budget is max 1000 Euro = amp+dac...


----------



## ProfFalkin

G0rt said:


> Schiit.
> 
> I have OG Gumby and find it good.
> 
> ...


Yggy A2 is, IMO, a direct and worthwhile upgrade from OG Gumby.  You keep a lot of the Gumby punch and tonality but upgrade resolution, stage, etc.  So... Given the price Delta, there is a bit of diminishing returns there, but I personally would do it.  This is an oversimplified version of my opinion, but sums it up well enough.

If you buy a new Yggy, wait for Unison.  I've heard it on Yggy A2.  It's worth waiting for.

Bifrost 2, which I own, is interesting.  Keep in mind, I haven't done ditect A/B comparisons, but B2 is probably more of a sidegrade to your Gumby.  They do different things slightly better than each other as I recall, so it's not like B2 is a repackaged Gumby A1 or something, but I don't think you'll get enough improvements to justify the purchase.


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jan 6, 2020)

tomina666 said:


> Guys...my budget is max 1000 Euro = amp+dac...


Lyr 3 + Modi MB.  Done.   You'll have enough left over for some NOS glass.

I suggest Modi as you can sell it later if you upgrade DACs.  (Good luck selling an upgrade card you had to pry out of the Lyr 3 later down the road.)


----------



## tomina666

ProfFalkin said:


> Lyr 3 + Modi MB.  Done.   You'll have enough left over for some NOS glass.
> 
> I suggest Modi as you can sell it later if you upgrade DACs.  (Good luck selling an upgrade card you had to pry out of the Lyr 3 later down the road.)


Thanks - is it better to buy DAC separately and eventually replace with better? If the DAC is part of Lyr, you can't upgrade later ...?


----------



## ProfFalkin (Jan 6, 2020)

tomina666 said:


> Thanks - is it better to buy DAC separately and eventually replace with better? If the DAC is part of Lyr, you can't upgrade later ...?


I think that if there is _any chance_ you might upgrade the DAC later, then buy it separately.   A used Modi MB still commands at least 60% of it's MSRP on the used market.  That $ can go back into whatever you upgrade to.

With the internal cards you're kinda stuck with an upgrade you paid for, and aren't using, if you start using a different external DAC.

That's just the way I think though.  It may not bother you that an internal MB card is just sitting in your Lyr 3 if you get a different DAC.  That kind of stuff makes me twitch.


----------



## tafens (Jan 6, 2020)

tomina666 said:


> Thanks - is it better to buy DAC separately and eventually replace with better? If the DAC is part of Lyr, you can't upgrade later ...?



You can, Lyr3 has the usual analog rca inputs for an external dac as well, and the card can be changed too. But, a card is a lot harder to sell second hand should you want to do that.

If you upgrade the ModiMB to, say, a Bifrost2 down the road you could also use the ModiMB as dac with another amp, or get a Magni3 to complete it to a small stack o’ Schiit as an alternate setup (for the office perhaps).


----------



## Paladin79

tafens said:


> Hard to say percentage-wise, but the tube can alter sound quite a lot (to my ears at least). From almost anemic boring (using a 1970 MELZ 1578) to full of euphonic musical thumping goodness (using a reissue Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB).
> 
> Before I got Lyr3 (my first amp with tubes) I was a bit concerned that tube rolling would have only marginal effect, and was on the fence about getting a tube based amp for some time. When the Lyr3 was released however, I decided it was time to try (it having only one tube made the decision easier, as buying new tubes for it becomes that much cheaper and no worries about matched pairs and such).
> 
> Haven’t regretted it a single second



I have not tried the 1970 Melz 1578 but generally they are anything from boring lol.  Generally the mids jump out and bite you. It is one of the tubes I use in some blind testing and it rates pretty high with groups thus far. Maybe that year is not as good, or the emission is down some?


----------



## tafens

Paladin79 said:


> I have not tried the 1970 Melz 1578 but generally they are anything from boring lol.  Generally the mids jump out and bite you. It is one of the tubes I use in some blind testing and it rates pretty high with groups thus far. Maybe that year is not as good, or the emission is down some?



I know, it was totally contrary to my expectations.

I bought it used on eBay, so it might be a bad specimen, or the 1970’s ones aren’t as good.
Could be it’s not the genuine article either, but it has all the tell-tale signs of a real MELZ 1578 (albeit no markings left on it except some on the base).

Here it is (tested 15.2/14.5 according to seller, but no hints as to what the numbers really are):


----------



## tomina666

There is two variants:


Lyr3 with AD5547 multibit https://www.audigo.cz/Domaci-audio/...S-D-A-prevodnikem/Schiit-Audio-LYR-3-Multibit

Lyr 3 with 4490 https://www.audigo.cz/Domaci-audio/...S-D-A-prevodnikem/Schiit-Audio-LYR-3-DAC-4490

AD5547MB is better, no? But this combo is cheaper...


----------



## Paladin79

tafens said:


> I know, it was totally contrary to my expectations.
> 
> I bought it used on eBay, so it might be a bad specimen, or the 1970’s ones aren’t as good.
> Could be it’s not the genuine article either, but it has all the tell-tale signs of a real MELZ 1578 (albeit no markings left on it except some on the base).
> ...



Judging by the condition of the pins, it certainly does not look like NOS. My favorite are from 1963 and I get them in factory boxes and they are pristine. I sent one to @bcowen and I believe he likes it better than some of the 80's versions as well. No matter what I always replace the solder in the pins on those since Russian solder seems to degrade over time, we are talking half a century on some of those tubes lol. You are a little too far away for me to offer to replace the solder for you.


----------



## tafens

tomina666 said:


> There is two variants:
> 
> 
> Lyr3 with AD5547 multibit https://www.audigo.cz/Domaci-audio/...S-D-A-prevodnikem/Schiit-Audio-LYR-3-Multibit
> ...



I certainly liked the multibit card in my Lyr3, and I still do, but as @ProfFalkin said, a ModiMB - if you can get it - would be an even better option (though a bit more expensive as it’s a separate unit). It is more flexible than the card as it can be resold more easily, has more inputs, and can be used with another amp when you upgrade). For 4490, there is also the Modi3.


----------



## tafens

Paladin79 said:


> Judging by the condition of the pins, it certainly does not look like NOS. My favorite are from 1963 and I get them in factory boxes and they are pristine. I sent one to @bcowen and I believe he likes it better than some of the 80's versions as well. No matter what I always replace the solder in the pins on those since Russian solder seems to degrade over time, we are talking half a century on some of those tubes lol. You are a little too far away for me to offer to replace the solder for you.



Judging by the condition of the pins (I have cleaned them with alcohol and fine grain sandpaper though), the solder probably needs replacing as well.

What tools would I need to replace the solder, and how to do it?
I have my trusty old Weller soldering station (and a blowtorch, but that might be a bit much, no?), ordinary solder with flux, and a reasonable expectation that I could pull it of without destroying it..


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 6, 2020)

tafens said:


> Judging by the condition of the pins (I have cleaned them with alcohol and fine grain sandpaper though), the solder probably needs replacing as well.
> 
> What tools would I need to replace the solder, and how to do it?
> I have my trusty old Weller soldering station (and a blowtorch, but that might be a bit much, no?), ordinary solder with flux, and a reasonable expectation that I could pull it of without destroying it..


I use a solder sucker to remove the old solder, a Weller iron, liquid solder flux as well as rosin core solder that is 4% silver. Angle the tube slightly downward and use a small diameter solder. I use a sharp pick and let a drop of the liquid flux flow into each pin.


----------



## tafens

Paladin79 said:


> I use a solder sucker to remove the old solder, a Weller iron, liquid solder flux as well as rosin core solder that is 4% silver. Angle the tube slightly downward and use a small diameter solder.



Great, thanks!
I’ll have to get the 4% silver solder and liquid flux, then I’m set. I only have not-so-great flux paste and tin/lead solder.


----------



## Paladin79 (Jan 6, 2020)

tafens said:


> Great, thanks!
> I’ll have to get the 4% silver solder and liquid flux, then I’m set. I only have not-so-great flux paste and tin/lead solder.


You can use standard solder, I just figured I would use the best I had. Since the old solder was in there so long, the extra liquid flux helps clean the joint and allows better contact.

I keep the iron tip on the outside of the pins to make cleanup easier. Just think about being able to get to any excess solder if you leave some on the outside.

I resolder Fotons as well, without doing this folks used to claim they needed 100 hours of burn in. IMHO the heat would eventually cause the rosin to reflow a bit. With this method, a couple hours burn in and you are fine.


----------



## tomina666

tafens said:


> I certainly liked the multibit card in my Lyr3, and I still do, but as @ProfFalkin said, a ModiMB - if you can get it - would be an even better option (though a bit more expensive as it’s a separate unit). It is more flexible than the card as it can be resold more easily, has more inputs, and can be used with another amp when you upgrade). For 4490, there is also the Modi3.


  You mean this? https://www.schiit.com/products/modi-1 Multibit version? In Czech shops is not avaible..


----------



## tafens

tomina666 said:


> You mean this? https://www.schiit.com/products/modi-1 Multibit version? In Czech shops is not avaible..



Yep, Version Modi3 is 4490, and Version Modi Multibit is AD5547 multibit.

Both Modis are available from Schiit-Europe (EU distributor), although presently out of stock when I
checked their site just now.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> That's how I do it too.
> 
> ROFL!!!


LOL
Pictures or it did not happen.

I have done this with about 50 Russian tubes and just found a half dozen ‘58 Fotons I forgot I owned so they will get the solder too soon.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 6, 2020)

I tried this, but after severely burning my tongue while attempting to suck out the solder, I gave up.   


Sorry -- no pics.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I don't have a camera.  Oh, and '58 Fotons are horrible.  You should probably dump them on me.


I would but the solder work would just cause your other tubes to hang their heads in shame.


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> OMG!!!!!!!!  You didn't actually put that in your Lyr?  Noooooo......  I just threw up my dinner.
> 
> J/K.  Well, about the dinner.   Friends don't let friends put nasty pins in their sockets.  Get 'ya some Deoxit. Or alcohol. Hell, even spit on them.  LOL!  Or your Lyr is going to divorce you and go marry Mr. Clean Pins.



I’ve had my suspicions. It’s almost as if that light shines just a little bit brighter with that brand new Tung-Sol in there.. 



bcowen said:


> More seriously, @Paladin79 discovered and diagnosed the very common issue with not only the Melz but the early Fotons and the bad solder. Until you re-solder them, you're not really hearing the tube for what it is. The first Melz (true 1578) I got was an early 80's version (IIRC). Good but not awesome.  The '63 I got from Paladin is much better. I haven't heard any of the 70's versions though so don't know how they compare.



I thought bad solder would mainly cause crackling and such, but of course, bad contact can cause all sorts of things. I’ll definitely resolder the pins and give them some Deoxit-treatment as well 
Oh, and I’m always using a socket saver of course.

Should you get your hands on a 70’s one, please do tell how it compares to the 60’s and 80’s vintages. Resoldered and all fixed-up of course


----------



## Paladin79

tafens said:


> I’ve had my suspicions. It’s almost as if that light shines just a little bit brighter with that brand new Tung-Sol in there..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe I have @bcowen's 80's versions now but I did gift him one from 1963 that I know has proper solder in it now. I will watch for a 70's version as well.

A poor solder can cause quite a few different things, one 60's version I had showed imbalanced emission before I soldered it, now it is fine on both sections.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## havagr8da

My ears are in love! Well, who is she? She has a cute little gold bottom, curvy grey body and a beautiful silver top. Who is She?


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's a Pioneer SX-780...


----------



## havagr8da

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's a Pioneer SX-780...


 Wow! Good guess. Because who she is does remind me of vintage Pioneer. Amazing you just happened to got there. But think tubes. I was going to do a post of a tube that reminded me of vintage Pioneer Sound.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 9, 2020)

Is it a Marantz?  How about a Sansui?  Could it be Phase Linear?  A Lyr 3?  Harmon Kardon Citation?  Hafler?  Dynaco?  Krell?


----------



## havagr8da

It is in a Lyr 3.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 9, 2020)

Woohoo.  I got it right!

It is an awesome amp bit of kit!  What DAC do you have paired with it?


----------



## ProfFalkin

Is it....





????


----------



## ProfFalkin

Or maybe...




????


Yep, I bet this is it.


----------



## havagr8da

The Tube



 
*Classic Grade Psvane CV181-T Mark II*
Kann Cube Source - Lyr 3 - Aeon 2c


----------



## ProfFalkin

havagr8da said:


> The Tube
> 
> *Classic Grade Psvane CV181-T Mark II*
> Kann Cube Source - Lyr 3 - Aeon 2c


I am immensely disappointed and my day is ruined.


----------



## havagr8da

ProfFalkin said:


> Or maybe...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



oh No not the vultures from Happy Feet.


----------



## FLTWS (Jan 9, 2020)

havagr8da said:


> The Tube
> 
> *Classic Grade Psvane CV181-T Mark II*
> Kann Cube Source - Lyr 3 - Aeon 2c



I like all my Psvanes, but this one has the looks.
Also kind of reminds me of the Heptopods, Abott & Costello, from "Arrival".


----------



## havagr8da (Jan 9, 2020)

The Psvane Classic CV181-T MK II. At least the one I got, gonna get another one to see if it is consistent. Beauty in my opinion. *Channel balance Perfect.* I could listen to this in the Lyr 3 forever and be convinced I had the best sound on the planet.


----------



## havagr8da

Ripper2860 said:


> Woohoo.  I got it right!
> 
> It is an awesome but if kit!  What DAC do you have paired with it?



By the way, thanks for the post in the music thread with *Phonesis* great music, love it. Tidal didn't have that specific album but I listened all they had.


----------



## Odin412

havagr8da said:


> The Tube
> 
> *Classic Grade Psvane CV181-T Mark II*
> Kann Cube Source - Lyr 3 - Aeon 2c



My favorite tube for my Saga. I haven't had a chance to try it in my Lyr 3 yet.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 9, 2020)

Mirren?  Yes.  Ginsburg?  Much respect but not so much.


----------



## Ripper2860

Friends don't let friends post after 4 margaritas.


----------



## G0rt

Ripper2860 said:


> Friends don't let friends post after 4 margaritas.


----------



## Ripper2860

Guilty as charged.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jan 9, 2020)

havagr8da said:


> The Psvane Classic CV181-T MK II. At least the one I got, gonna get another one to see if it is consistent. Beauty in my opinion. *Channel balance Perfect.* I could listen to this in the Lyr 3 forever and be convinced I had the best sound on the planet.



I have a Shu Yaung Treasure Series CV-181 which is equivalent to the T MK I Psvane and I am quite fond of it.   It does sound quite nice with a an open airy sound and well defined bass and sound-stage.  Lately, I have been smitten by my 12AU7 Brimar and Mullards (adapter needed), but I would not fuss if I was told I could only pair Psvane or Shu Yuang with my Lyre 3.  

And thanks.  Phronesis is a new favorite of mine.  All their recordings are quite enjoyable!!


----------



## tafens (Jan 10, 2020)

havagr8da said:


> My ears are in love! Well, who is she? She has a cute little gold bottom, curvy grey body and a beautiful silver top. Who is She?



I’d bet @ProfFalkin got it with his first guess, but if not, I’m going for this:

 

Edit: missed to add the picture, and also missed that there was another page with messages 
Well, guess confirmed


----------



## Ripper2860

Ooooh.  Sexy!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## triggsviola

bcowen said:


> Somehow it looks a little more, um, majestic(?) in the Vali than the Lyr. Maybe it's 'cause the Vali looks wimpy in comparison...


Love that look!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## havagr8da (Jan 18, 2020)

Speaking of great minds. Fantastic recommendation of the Foton tubes. I got a pair of ‘53 ribbed  and absolutely love them.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Rowethren (Feb 12, 2020)

I had been using the stock new production Tung-Sol for a while and started noticing a strange cross talk issue where sounds on the left side also crackled through on the right. Stupidly spent ages testing everything but it took me about 2 weeks to realise it was the tube causing the issue lol...

I guess I am now on the hunt for more tubes, hopefully I get better luck that the schiit show I had with the Bad Boys I bought before!

Edit - I just found a pair of 1952 Fotons in a draw I completely forgot about. I guess my problem is solved lol...


----------



## AppleheadMay (Feb 12, 2020)

FLTWS said:


> I agree on the Psvanes, I started with UK-6SN7 in my LYR3, then acquired the TII, the Treasure Globe, and for good measure I've got a Sophia Electric in there presently.



Very nice selction!
About the blue Sophia, I wonder:
- if it sounds better than the clear Sophia 6SN7 at half the price.
- how the hell it looks like when running in the dark. Isn't the nice warm glow missing? Pic possible?

By the way, how do you find the Jot with the HD800S/820? I read mixed reports on synergy.


----------



## FLTWS (Feb 12, 2020)

AppleheadMay said:


> Very nice selction!
> About the blue Sophia, I wonder:
> - if it sounds better than the clear Sophia 6SN7 at half the price.
> - how the hell it looks like when running in the dark. Isn't the nice warm glow missing? Pic possible?
> ...



I always felt my Jotunheim, which I still have, as bigger than life, great bass, clear,forward mids, sharp, bright highs, and more forward soundstage than I personally like with just about any headphone I've owned.
No idea about the clear (a Sophia?), the other 3pictured are Psvanes, I think the blue color may just be an aesthetic option/choice.
In the dark, almost no glow to see and tube just looks grey, especially against a black backgroung. Maybe with a good camera and lengthy exposure and someone who knows what they are doing, might come out different.


----------



## AppleheadMay

FLTWS said:


> I always felt my Jotunheim, which I still have, as bigger than life, great bass, clear,forward mids, sharp, bright highs, and more forward soundstage than I personally like with just about any headphone I've owned.
> No idea about the clear, the other 3pictured are Psvanes, I think the blue color may just be an aesthetic option/choice.
> In the dark, almost no glow to see and tube just looks grey, especially against a black backgroung. Maybe with a good camera and lengthy exposure and someone who knows what they are doing, might come out different.



Thank you for the info!

- Concerning the tubes: I don't have a Lyr (yet) but if Sophia's 2 tubes sound indeed different I find it a shame they made it blue and that would make me choose one of the 2 left PSVanes instead, if indeed the clear Sophia isn't as good as the blue one. Apart from hating blue light/leds it dampens the light of the tube as you say. A tube can be so beautiful when lit at night. I'm nitpicking, I know. 
- and the Jot: I acquired a Schiit stack recently (Modi3/Magni3+/Vali2) and can't help the upgraditis I suffer from making me wonder about a bigger stack (Bifrost/Jot/Lyr) with the Lyr as most important piece. I happened to come across a Bifrost second hand here locally but haven't bought it yet. But I see you have quite some Schiit and maybe had more in the past and seen your opinion about the Jot you own the Jot might not be a good idea after all, certainly not with the HD800S/HD820 I was planning to use it with.


----------



## FLTWS (Feb 12, 2020)

I like the LYR3 and the possibility of coming up with a tube that compliments whatever headphone you have is always a possibility with tubes. However, first, if you get a LYR3 you need to spend a month or two getting to know what it sounds like with the stock tube (I think they are using JJ 6SN7's now) if you have no experience with the 6SN7 type. Then experiment. You don't want to buy a pricey tube only to finds out that tubes, or the specific type of tube, is not to your liking sonically, its not like there are day and nite differences to my way of hearing it, just different flavorings sometimes, and sometimes no differences at all. The acid test of course is to acquire LYR3 and run it against your Jotunheim side by side for a few months. That's why I have several different amps, I enjoy comparing, trying new and different things and different combos, but that also becomes long term projects. And that being said, neither the Jotunheim or LYR3 operate in isolation, choice of source type, external or on board Dac, features, etc., all adds in to the equation.

I'd be willing to bet some HP's would match up nicely with the Jotunheim its just that of the ones I own I never got where I wanted to be sound wise. But one never knows, I'm still hanging on to it t this time. My favorite amp for the Senn's 600, 800 and 800S was Ragnarok 1 or LYR3, I just sold mine (Ragnarok 1) and now need to come up with a replacement. All in good time.


----------



## AppleheadMay

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
Audeze could be good with the Jot.
It seems indeed like I'm going to have to buy to try.
Luckily ,just like you, I find joy in comparing and testing as well.


----------



## FLTWS

Keep your eye on B-Stock too.


AppleheadMay said:


> Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
> Audeze could be good with the Jot.
> It seems indeed like I'm going to have to buy to try.
> Luckily ,just like you, I find joy in comparing and testing as well.


----------



## AppleheadMay

I'm in Europe, I can't use the 115V B-Stock from the US. 
Never much clearance items on the UK sites and on the EU site they don't do clearance.


----------



## FLTWS

Rowethren said:


> I had been using the stock new production Tung-Sol for a while and started noticing a strange cross talk issue where sounds on the left side also crackled through on the right. Stupidly spent ages testing everything but it took me about 2 weeks to realise it was the tube causing the issue lol...
> 
> I guess I am now on the hunt for more tubes, hopefully I get better luck that the schiit show I had with the Bad Boys I bought before!
> 
> Edit - I just found a pair of 1952 Fotons in a draw I completely forgot about. I guess my problem is solved lol...



You could always buy a JJ from Schiit for $25.00 to throw in the mix.


----------



## FLTWS

AppleheadMay said:


> I'm in Europe, I can't use the 115V B-Stock from the US.
> Never much clearance items on the UK sites and on the EU site they don't do clearance.



Understood.


----------



## tafens

FLTWS said:


> You could always buy a JJ from Schiit for $25.00 to throw in the mix.



JJ is definitely with a try.
It is worth mentioning though, that although Schiit doesn’t carry the Tung-Sol now, it is still readily available from elsewhere.


----------



## FLTWS

True.


----------



## AppleheadMay

FLTWS said:


> True.



Those PSVanes are actually brand new replicas of NOS Shuguang tubes if I remember it correctly from when I had a Zana?
I really like how that lightbulb one looks. Any chance you know of any dealers in Europe?
It is a PSVane as well? I can't see the brand on the tube.


----------



## FLTWS

The round one is a Treasure Globe  also from the Shuguang. I purchased all of mine from Grant Fidelity in Canada

https://psvanetube.com/wordpress/purchase/shop-by-tube-model/6sn7-aka-cv181/

They may be able to direct you to someone in Europe or maybe sell direct to you. Check out the page above.


----------



## AppleheadMay

FLTWS said:


> The round one is a Treasure Globe  also from the Shuguang. I purchased all of mine from Grant Fidelity in Canada
> 
> https://psvanetube.com/wordpress/purchase/shop-by-tube-model/6sn7-aka-cv181/
> 
> They may be able to direct you to someone in Europe or maybe sell direct to you. Check out the page above.



Yep, I think it's best to buy from them, they seem legit for those tubes.
But is that round one a NOS Shuguang or new PSVane?


----------



## FLTWS

Its new.


----------



## AppleheadMay

Great, thanks!


----------



## AppleheadMay (Feb 22, 2020)

Got the Lyr finally and I like it, quite a nice step up from the smaller Schiit stacks.
It came with a Russian 6H8C tube though and the one I ordered extra from them was the same instead of a JJ or Tung-Sol.
So I ordered those Treasure Globes from the link in Canada you gave me, should have them in about 3 weeks with those annoying customs here.
Wondering if I'd buy these clear Sophias as well: https://www.sophiaelectric.eu/us/b/6sn7/0?r=161 .


----------



## tafens

AppleheadMay said:


> Got the Lyr finally and I like it, quite a nice step up from the smaller Schiit stacks.
> It came with a Russian 6H8C tube though and the one I ordered extra from them was the same instead of a JJ or Tung-Sol.
> So I ordered those Treasure Globes from the link in Canada you gave me, should have them in about 3 weeks with those annoying customs here.
> Wondering if I'd buy these clear Sophias as well: https://www.sophiaelectric.eu/us/b/6sn7/0?r=161 .



Schiit recently switched the premium tube option to the JJ instead of the Tung-Sol, but both are very good new production tubes in my experience. If you haven’t already, I’d recommend giving them a try also. They are both at about $25 and imho holds their own pretty well compared to some similarly NOS tubes as well as some more expensive ones.


----------



## AppleheadMay

tafens said:


> Schiit recently switched the premium tube option to the JJ instead of the Tung-Sol, but both are very good new production tubes in my experience. If you haven’t already, I’d recommend giving them a try also. They are both at about $25 and imho holds their own pretty well compared to some similarly NOS tubes as well as some more expensive ones.



I can't get the JJ ones from Schiit EU or UK, only US.
A $25 tube from would cost me about 100€ with shipping, 31% tax on the tube + on the shipping and a 35€ administrative cost.
I ordered a tube for the Vali and a Pyst cable a few weeks ago, cost me about the same.
So for 100€ I think it would be better to look somewhere else.
Ordering in the US too is expensive from here, certainly for lower priced items.


----------



## FLTWS

AppleheadMay said:


> Got the Lyr finally and I like it, quite a nice step up from the smaller Schiit stacks.
> It came with a Russian 6H8C tube though and the one I ordered extra from them was the same instead of a JJ or Tung-Sol.
> So I ordered those Treasure Globes from the link in Canada you gave me, should have them in about 3 weeks with those annoying customs here.
> Wondering if I'd buy these clear Sophias as well: https://www.sophiaelectric.eu/us/b/6sn7/0?r=161 .



I have no experience with the clear Sophia, maybe the same as the blue, maybe not. Tube rolling is like going to a buffet where you've never experienced tasting any of the dishes before. Someone can tell you how this or that dish tastes to them. They can never tell you how it will taste to you. With tubes for audio that can be an expensive taste test, but it's the only way we can know for sure how a given tube will sound to us. Maybe different, maybe the same. We pay to play and gain experience.


----------



## tafens

AppleheadMay said:


> I can't get the JJ ones from Schiit EU or UK, only US.
> A $25 tube from would cost me about 100€ with shipping, 31% tax on the tube + on the shipping and a 35€ administrative cost.
> I ordered a tube for the Vali and a Pyst cable a few weeks ago, cost me about the same.
> So for 100€ I think it would be better to look somewhere else.
> Ordering in the US too is expensive from here, certainly for lower priced items.



I feel your pain, ordering from the US is associated with significant shipping costs, import fees and taxes for me too. I get 25% tax and a $10 import fee on top for everything ordered from outside EU. Not as much as you but that still makes a $25 item into a $42 item (excluding shipping).

Fortunately both the Tung-Sol (manufactured in Russia) and the JJ (manufactured in Yugoslavia I think) are also available from elsewhere, closer to home. I found some listings on eBay for example; new Tung-Sol (UK £20, Germany €29), JJ (Germany €20) by searching for “tung-sol 6sn7 new” and “jj 6sn7 new”.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Not to derail things, but just out of interest who does that 35 euro administrative fee go to? The post/carrier, or the government? Kinda sounds like another tax by another name.


It goes to me, Bill.  How do you think I manage to buy of those nice tubes?  
Joking aside, I guess I should stop complaining about California's 10% sales tax... (which now eBay adds to EVERY purchase, regardless of seller location)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## AppleheadMay

FLTWS said:


> I have no experience with the clear Sophia, maybe the same as the blue, maybe not. Tube rolling is like going to a buffet where you've never experienced tasting any of the dishes before. Someone can tell you how this or that dish tastes to them. They can never tell you how it will taste to you. With tubes for audio that can be an expensive taste test, but it's the only way we can know for sure how a given tube will sound to us. Maybe different, maybe the same. We pay to play and gain experience.


Indeed. I think I'll try a clear Sophia. I find the blue glass a bit of a shame for the glow.



tafens said:


> I feel your pain, ordering from the US is associated with significant shipping costs, import fees and taxes for me too. I get 25% tax and a $10 import fee on top for everything ordered from outside EU. Not as much as you but that still makes a $25 item into a $42 item (excluding shipping).
> Fortunately both the Tung-Sol (manufactured in Russia) and the JJ (manufactured in Yugoslavia I think) are also available from elsewhere, closer to home. I found some listings on eBay for example; new Tung-Sol (UK £20, Germany €29), JJ (Germany €20) by searching for “tung-sol 6sn7 new” and “jj 6sn7 new”.


Thanks, will search for those on eBay.
Here it's 21% VAT, 10% import but charged on shipping fees as well. Plus the admin fee.



bcowen said:


> Do you deal with the same added costs buying from Russia?  If not, you might enjoy a '50's vintage Foton 6N8S.  Any of the pre-'60's versions are noticeably better than anything post-60, including the new manufactures.  Cheaper too, so if those fees do apply at least the tax would be less.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-6N8S-...645882?hash=item23cc316a3a:g:zcMAAOSwY9pd3OhS
> Not to derail things, but just out of interest who does that 35 euro administrative fee go to?  The post/carrier, or the government?  Kinda sounds like another tax by another name.


Yep, from anywhere that isn't Europe.
The admin fee goes to our postal office, for presenting the goods to customs.


----------



## Rowethren

bcowen said:


> Do you deal with the same added costs buying from Russia?  If not, you might enjoy a '50's vintage Foton 6N8S.  Any of the pre-'60's versions are noticeably better than anything post-60, including the new manufactures.  Cheaper too, so if those fees do apply at least the tax would be less.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-6N8S-...645882?hash=item23cc316a3a:g:zcMAAOSwY9pd3OhS
> 
> Not to derail things, but just out of interest who does that 35 euro administrative fee go to?  The post/carrier, or the government?  Kinda sounds like another tax by another name.



Are they the ribbed ones? I can't see any obvious ribbing in the photos on that listing.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## AppleheadMay

I must say the people from Grant Fidelity in Canada that sell the Shuguang and PSVane tubes have been really helpful in arranging everything for the import.
If you’re in Europe and would like to buy those tubes, send them an email first.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> No, the ribbed ones are '55 and earlier. Possibly some '56's as well -- I have a pair of '56's on the way that have smooth plates, but I'm pretty sure I've seen '56's with ribbed plates on Ebay before. Guessing that was the year of the change.  Anything '57 or later has the smooth plates.  Unfortunately the ribbed plate versions have all but disappeared, at least for cheap.
> 
> 
> Edit: had to go look, and lo and behold:



I'll see your ribbed anodes and raise you a corrugated anode pair


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Benno1988

Anyone have thoughts on pairing a Lyr 3 with the ZMF Verite?

I have a SMSL SP200, but want a warmer and less clinical sound.


----------



## tcellguy

Benno1988 said:


> Anyone have thoughts on pairing a Lyr 3 with the ZMF Verite?
> 
> I have a SMSL SP200, but want a warmer and less clinical sound.



Open or closed Verite? I just got the Verite Closed. It sounds great with both my Jotunheim and Lyr 3, but so far I’m tending towards the Jotunheim more as it has increased bass slam and I’m enjoying how fast the Verite is. The Jotunheim has faster transients vs. Lyr 3. Both Jot and Lyr 3 are warmer than the THX789 and probably the sp200.


----------



## Benno1988

Open.

Anything is warmer than the SP200 (which would sound the same as the 789).

You run the Bifrost 2 to the Jot?


----------



## tcellguy

Yeah balanced out to the Jot and SE to the Lyr 3. It’s an amazing set up for the price. I think I read somewhere that the Vérité closed sounds better with solid state and open version better with tubes.


----------



## Benno1988

Yeah true. Probably splitting hairs at that point a bit.

Its just hard. Every reviewer raves on the THX ones, and says the Jot is "ya know, its OK I guess". And the Lyr 3 basically has minimal reviews.


----------



## AppleheadMay

tcellguy said:


> Yeah balanced out to the Jot and SE to the Lyr 3. It’s an amazing set up for the price. I think I read somewhere that the Vérité closed sounds better with solid state and open version better with tubes.


That’s the set I’m going for, just received the Lyr 3.
I am waiting a bit with the Jot however, I think a new version might come out after reading Mike’s ramblings ...



Benno1988 said:


> Yeah true. Probably splitting hairs at that point a bit.
> Its just hard. Every reviewer raves on the THX ones, and says the Jot is "ya know, its OK I guess". And the Lyr 3 basically has minimal reviews.



I am usually cautious with stuff every reviewer raves about and I must say the Lyr sounds pretty nice to me, even without reviews.


----------



## earnmyturns

tcellguy said:


> Vérité closed sounds better with solid state and open version better with tubes.


I'm not sure one can give a categorical answer given the diversity of both solid-state and tube amps, but I do prefer the Verité open with my Eddie Current Aficionado (tubes) and the Verité closed with my solid state amps (Phonitor XE and Neurochrome HP-1). I no longer have a Lyr 3 to answer the original question, though.


----------



## murder3kz

Hey guys,

I bought a Northern Electric 6SN7 Tube for my Lyr 3. After a few days, I would get no audio in my left ear. Swapping tubes back to the stock JJ 6SN7, it worked fine. Any idea why that might be the case?


----------



## Rowethren

murder3kz said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I bought a Northern Electric 6SN7 Tube for my Lyr 3. After a few days, I would get no audio in my left ear. Swapping tubes back to the stock JJ 6SN7, it worked fine. Any idea why that might be the case?



Sounds like a dead tube, if you are lucky it could just be the solder and you could have a go at reflowing it. @bcowen can guide you through the process, he is a master now I hear


----------



## Ripper2860

Welcome!!  

Sounds like a defective tube.  Northern Electric tubes seem to be pretty well regarded, so I'd contact the seller and seek a replacement.


----------



## Odin412

murder3kz said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I bought a Northern Electric 6SN7 Tube for my Lyr 3. After a few days, I would get no audio in my left ear. Swapping tubes back to the stock JJ 6SN7, it worked fine. Any idea why that might be the case?



It sounds like the Northern Electric tube is defective. Sometimes tubes break, unfortunately.


----------



## tafens

murder3kz said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I bought a Northern Electric 6SN7 Tube for my Lyr 3. After a few days, I would get no audio in my left ear. Swapping tubes back to the stock JJ 6SN7, it worked fine. Any idea why that might be the case?



Tube’s broken I’m afraid 
Bad connection in one of the pins or triode sections, short, heater failure, could be any of a number of things. If you got a warranty with the tube purchase, now is the time to use it.


----------



## murder3kz

I got it from thetubestore.com they are sending me a new one. Thanks all!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Progrocker111

Hi folks, i am new here. I have been experimenting  with some tubes in my new acquired Schiit Lyr 3. The best results in combination with Fiio M11 Pro and Hifiman Arya headphones i achieved with early 50s Sylvania 6SN7 GTA tube (green label, long base). The sound is very lively, big, spacious, with amazing clarity and tight bass, still very musical and with excellent imaging. For example the stock JJ 6SN7 tube sounded much darker and muddy in comparison, with much less detail and overall worse dynamics. 

Early 50s Sylvania 6SN7 GTA tubes are excellent, still affordable, really recommended!


----------



## earnmyturns (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm mostly (temporarily?) retiring from 6SN7 and 7N7. If you are interested in a bargain, I'll be posting on the FS thread today. Helpful regulars here (you know who you are) deserve a break, PM me  FS posted!


----------



## Ripper2860

Well, don't be a stranger.  I always look forward to your posts.


----------



## earnmyturns

Ripper2860 said:


> Well, don't be a stranger.  I always look forward to your posts.


Thanks, I'll keep reading this good thread, never know when I may re-6SN7-up


----------



## AppleheadMay

earnmyturns said:


> I'm mostly (temporarily?) retiring from 6SN7 and 7N7. If you are interested in a bargain, I'll be posting on the FS thread today. Helpful regulars here (you know who you are) deserve a break, PM me  FS posted!



Damn, pretty good deal there for the whole package!
Sadly I'm in Europe and I just bought a Shuguang Treasure Globe GF Edition and have a Psvane CV181-TII on the way.
As my Lyr 3 came with some crappy Russian 6H8C instead of the Tung Sol or JJ they come with in America the difference was very noticeable to say the least, my Lyr changed from a mediocre sound to a really smooth and full-bodied one. Still have to get to know it better though.
Glad I didn't go with the Modi/Magni/Vali stack after all, I have a Bifrost and Jotunheim on the way now, I think it will be a much nicer stack for me and the phones I'd to use with them.

On another note, if someone is looking for some Vali 2 tubes, I have an Ediswan ECC88 and Valvo E288CC gold pin I never used, just got to find the energy to put them up for sale. I do have plenty energy, just can't seem to direct it towards taking pictures and making for sale posts.


----------



## AppleheadMay

Anybody else with a Lyr and some other Schiit stuff of the same size?
Is it normal the silver color is really visibly different?
The Jotunheim I just received is a lot lighter than the Lyr and there are no prints below the two switches or Low Gain and SE input.
I'm starting to think I received B-stock and at the higher price compared to the US we pay here (607€ with 4490 Dac) I'm not sure if I should find that acceptable.


----------



## Odin412

AppleheadMay said:


> Anybody else with a Lyr and some other Schiit stuff of the same size?
> Is it normal the silver color is really visibly different?
> The Jotunheim I just received is a lot lighter than the Lyr and there are no prints below the two switches or Low Gain and SE input.
> I'm starting to think I received B-stock and at the higher price compared to the US we pay here (607€ with 4490 Dac) I'm not sure if I should find that acceptable.



I've noticed that the aluminum cases can have a slightly different hue. For example, my Saga was stacked on top of my Bifrost 2 (since returned), and I noticed that the Bifrost 2 had a very slightly more golden hue than the Saga. Not a huge difference, but sometimes noticeable depending on the light.


----------



## AppleheadMay

Odin412 said:


> I've noticed that the aluminum cases can have a slightly different hue. For example, my Saga was stacked on top of my Bifrost 2 (since returned), and I noticed that the Bifrost 2 had a very slightly more golden hue than the Saga. Not a huge difference, but sometimes noticeable depending on the light.



Yep, that's it. The Lyr has a champagne hue and the Jot a cold silver hue. The difference was enough to definately notice it as soon as I put them together.
And then the missing print below the switches? B-stock?


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Zer0.p0int.Zer0 (Mar 10, 2020)

I’ve owned Asgard 2, Lyr 3, Saga, Bifrost 4490, Bifrost MB, Bifrost 2 and they may have slight variations in the metal finish (color and grain), but I never thought it was a big deal. The Schiit logo seems to have some variation as well. It’s darker on my Bifrost 2 than the Lyr 3.
Don't think it necessarily qualifies them as B-stock.

Edit: none were champagne though


----------



## AppleheadMay

bcowen said:


> Of that size chassis I only have 2 pieces -- the Lyr and a Bifrost 2. If there's a color difference I never noticed it, but they're separated on a small rack rather than being stacked so that may hide any minor differences. I'll take another look in the daylight and see if anything stands out.  As far as the print, perhaps the silkscreening was messed up in manufacturing and nobody noticed (doubtful with Schiit's normal QC), or you _did_ get a B-stock.  Either way I'd find that objectionable myself. Did you buy direct from Schiit or an importer? You might email them and see what they have to say.



With mine the difference is real, ven if I put them in a shadow I can clearly tell the difference, the Lyr that seemed simply silver before is like champagne colored now on top of the cool silver Jot.
Perhaps it's because the Jot has been around much longer and they changed the chassis production?

I bought from Schiit in the UK which is one of the two importers for Schiit in Europe.
Haven't had that much luck with them yet: black Modi instead of Silver, broken Magni, Lyr with UK cable instead of EU one and now the Jot.
The did solve the problems each time though and they are friendly people which is why I'm not fond of sending it back again.

Maybe I'll wait until my Bifrost from the US comes in (none in stock here in Europe) to see hwat color I get this time but they don't sheem in a hurry to ship while they claimed it was in stock.

Luckily the Lyr sounds really good now with the tube I put in and I was immediately amazed by the sound of the Jot right out of the box but for the rest the stuff I got from Schiit had a problem each time so i wonder if there's much QC going on.
Ok, they're not an expensive company but my stack here will be a 2K€ stack after all and it's far from their highest tier.
I like to have less problems when I buy something and I have been trying to gather a Schiit stack for 6 weeks now and am still far from done it seems.


----------



## AppleheadMay

Zer0.p0int.Zer0 said:


> I’ve owned Asgard 2, Lyr 3, Saga, Bifrost 4490, Bifrost MB, Bifrost 2 and they may have slight variations in the metal finish (color and grain), but I never thought it was a big deal. The Schiit logo seems to have some variation as well. It’s darker on my Bifrost 2 than the Lyr 3.
> Don't think it necessarily qualifies them as B-stock.



I'm not talking about the Schiit logo, the icons below two switches are missing.
Fun if a new one comes out and you want to sell your Jot, try to convince the buyer it came like that and you didn't go cheap and buy B-stock.


----------



## Monahans67

This probably isn't the right place but I wanted to post this here first.  I own the Lyr 3 and have a bunch of tubes but I found two tubes in my stash that I guess I bought along time ago for a different amp.  I have a Matched Pair of Genalex E88CC/6922 that were cryoset certified. I don't remember ever using them and they are like new.  I am not selling them but if someone here on the Lyr 3 site has any way of using them I will send them to you for free.  All I need is your mailing address.


----------



## Ripper2860

PM sent


----------



## Monahans67

Ripper2860 said:


> PM sent


PM answered. LOL


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> PM sent


 No schiit, why am I not surprised , lol. I think you can use it in Valhalla 2 with adapters.


----------



## Monahans67

Anybody know where I can get one of those Brimar tubes y'all keep raving about?


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

Ok guys I'm back.  Been gone for awhile having surgeries.  Sucks to get old for sure.  Feeling really good now though and ready to get back into this hobby. Feel like I need to pick on somebody...Who would you suggest needs it  Bill.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Monahans67

I will wait my time and do the picking when appropriate!!!  Thanks for the welcome back...


----------



## Ripper2860

I won't....

I waited the prerequisite period of time for @bcowen to strike, but apparently he was too busy trying to set a Guinness record for most adapters installed in a Vali 2.


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> I won't....
> 
> I waited the prerequisite period of time for @bcowen to strike, but apparently he was too busy trying to set a Guinness record for most adapters installed in a Vali 2.



LOL. You two ought to get matching T-Shirts that say "The First to Die with the Most Tubes Wins!


----------



## Monahans67

I saw a picture somewhere  that showed them with the same hats that show that.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

bcowen said:


> I'm just happy to see @Ripper2860 collecting tubes now instead of Barbie dolls.


When I talked to him today about those free tubes he did ask me if I had any littles and if they had any Barbie Dolls they outgrew.  Now I know what he was up to.


----------



## Monahans67

Not littles,  meant girls darn auto correct


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## Ripper2860 (Mar 20, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I'm just happy to see @Ripper2860 collecting tubes now instead of Barbie dolls.




Geez.  How many time must I tell you?  Barbie Benton!  I collect life-sized Barbie Benton dolls!  They're highly collectible and an investment, dammit!!!!


----------



## Monahans67

Too funny


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Glad to hear you're doing better!
> 
> As for a picking victim, I vote for @Paladin79 .  He's been waaaaaay too quiet lately.



I am busy building amps for some very fine people and one for some homeless guy who wanders into this thread every now and then. His cabinet will be cardboard so it matches the interior of his summer home.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

bcowen said:


> Careful... @Ripper2860 could wander in at any moment and get offended.


Don't worry he just sent me a PM and he will be spending the rest of the day in the basement with his Barbie collection.  Don't let that other EXCUSE fool you.  LOL


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> Careful... @Ripper2860 could wander in at any moment and get offended.


Some of my work with 1/8 inch copper. This is a long process.


----------



## Monahans67

Very impressive.


----------



## Paladin79

Monahans67 said:


> Very impressive.


Thanks, if you will keep it to yourself I will send a PM showing what I have in store for Mr. Cowen.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 21, 2020)

I'm too busy for shenanigans - trying to score some TP, kitchen cleaner, and enough Pine-sol to fill a bathtub so I can bath in it.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

That's where Tom is mounting the Blue Devils light-up hood ornament.


----------



## Monahans67

As valuable as toilet paper is getting it might be for a toilet paper rack so you can keep it handy and safe.


----------



## murder3kz

Hey guys, if any of you are using the Lyr 3 with the multibit DAC module built in, I would highly recommend skipping it. Put it in phono and use another amp.

The multibit DAC module introduces an audible amount of noise when you turn the volume up (with and without music), and it's really not okay for a $200 add-on.

I had an extra $99 Modi 2 DAC that I had upgraded from with the Lyr 3 and multibit DAC, thinking I will save space and $--I could not be more wrong. 

Putting the Modi 2 external DAC in, all that extra noise went away.

I tried a ground loop hum remover. I blamed it on tubes, cables, my computer, etc. and it was the integrated DAC the entire time. After emailing with Schiit, they never warned me that this might be the problem. I spent $80 on the ground loop hum remover, $70 on new cable, and at least $200 on tubes to try and diagnose this problem.

So I warn anyone reading this thread, if you want a better listening experience free of noise artifacts introduced by your equipment, don't get the integrated DAC. I really can't believe Schiit is selling this crap for $200 when you can spend $99 on another DAC, whether Schiit or another brand.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What's the hole between the sockets for?  This is a new development....


That is an air vent. I did not want to risk cutting small holes accurately in this thick copper, I will have metal mesh mounted from the bottom side.


----------



## FLTWS

I got a large bottle of PineSol at Home Depot.


----------



## Ripper2860

With that one purchase you're set no matter what the stock market does.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> That's where Tom is mounting the Blue Devils light-up hood ornament.


This top plate is much too nice for Mr. Cowen but I am sparing no expense on Dukifying his amp.
I am using Melz and Foton tubes most likely, so it is good to know how to replace the solder in the pins.


----------



## FLTWS




----------



## Paladin79

FLTWS said:


>


Vent and matching front plate.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Mar 21, 2020)

bcowen said:


> @Ripper2860 would need a 55 gallon drum.  Or two.



Yep. I'll take all I can since the hot-tub is now in play.  With March Madness being canceled, the girls on the University of North Texas cheer-leading squad now want in.  Who am I to say no in these trying times??


----------



## Monahans67

Dang Ripper you missed some words,  you need to add University of North Texas Senior Citizen cheer-leading squad.   They are going to be upset if you misrepresent them.  LOL


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Mar 21, 2020)

Monahans67 said:


> Dang Ripper you missed some words,  you need to add University of North Texas Senior Citizen cheer-leading squad.   They are going to be upset if you misrepresent them.  LOL



Hey.  If they look like this Senior Citizen, they're all welcome!!   








bcowen said:


> Well as I always say, to each their own. Have fun. But practice safe social distancing anyway.



Don't you worry -- there will be plenty of alcohol involved ...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> What?!?  No copper mesh?  Tacky.



It matches the transformer cover and it is called contrast. You know like the 5 contrasting colors your Gremlin is painted. Well maybe four colors and rust, but rust is still a color.
Just wait till I use silver duct tape to hold your cardboard cabinet together, then you will understand tacky.


----------



## Ripper2860

He doesn't have a Gremlin.  He traded it for a Yugo.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> He doesn't have a Gremlin.  He traded it for a Yugo.


I am glad he is finally moving up in the world, and as far as copper mesh, I have been there and done that, I am using new techniques.


----------



## Zachik

Monahans67 said:


> Don't worry he just sent me a PM and he will be spending the rest of the day in the basement with his Barbie collection.  Don't let that other EXCUSE fool you.  LOL


Busted!!!


----------



## Zachik

@Paladin79 - what amp are you building? 
Are you posting more info on a different (dedicated) thread?  if so - please share a link...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

Zachik said:


> Busted!!!


Hello Ripper, love the necklace.


----------



## Ripper2860

Zachik said:


> @Paladin79 - what amp are you building?
> Are you posting more info on a different (dedicated) thread?  if so - please share a link...



Life-sized.   Life-sized Barbie Benton dolls.  Geez, it's like playing cards with my sister's kids.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Paladin79 (Mar 22, 2020)

Zachik said:


> @Paladin79 - what amp are you building?
> Are you posting more info on a different (dedicated) thread?  if so - please share a link...


The amp is my own design for comparing 6SN7 equivalent tubes. It is a class A OTL but does reasonably well down to 50 ohms impedance. I built four that are being used by a local audiophile group for blind testing. I am building some for friends here after sending a sample to a couple people. I do not have a thread and right now I am building far more of the amps than was ever my intent.

I should also state that the amps have nothing to do with the company I work for and are just part of my personal hobby. The coronavirus has put a hold on a lot of activities in my area but friends were in the process of using the first four amps for blind listening on any type of 6sn7 equivalent imaginable. We have limited the tube types down to a quantity of 52 with price ranges from $20 per tube up to $3,000 for some fairly rare versions. In the past I have sent concealed tubes for blind testing to @bcowen , Jason at Schiit Audio, and others but this is on a larger scale and involves several friends in the scientific community. The four amps I built were made solely for bringing out the 6sn7 sound and that was their main purpose. Upon hearing the amps friends wanted one, but luckily only those who have heard it, and a couple more who read reviews.I was hoping Jason would use Lyr 3's to compare the tubes I sent him but he wanted speakers involved so the Saga's were used. After a while I decided to approach this on my own and rather than buy four amps, I made them. Here are a few photos of earlier blind tests at Schiit:


----------



## AppleheadMay (Apr 7, 2020)

Since the sockets sit so deep in the Lyr I bought these risers/socket savers to use with my Shuguang SE and Psvane CV181-TIIto show more of the tube:
https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Gold-Octal-8pin-EL34-KT88-6SN7-6V6-GZ34-6L6-5Z3-Tube-Socket-Saver-Base/173494881620?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Man, these simple things are very well built: much heavier and solidly built than I expected and they have a very tight and clamping connection.
The pictures don't do them justice at all and the tubes in the Lyr look much better now.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## AppleheadMay

Yep, available from multiple sellers but I seem to remember the other sellers item referred to Suzier Audio in some way so I thought I'd buy straight from him.
He also sells a small selection of JJ tubes, not 6SN7 though.
In any case, I trust him as the package went missing with this Corona stuff going down and he immediately arranged for a new shipment.


----------



## AudioProm

AppleheadMay said:


> Since the sockets sit so deep in the Lyr I bought these risers/socket savers to use with my Shuguang SE and Psvane CV181-TIIto show more of the tube:
> https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Gold-Octal-8pin-EL34-KT88-6SN7-6V6-GZ34-6L6-5Z3-Tube-Socket-Saver-Base/173494881620?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
> 
> Man, these simple things are very well built: much heavier and solidly built than I expected and they have a very tight and clamping connection.
> The pictures don't do them justice at all and the tubes in the Lyr look much better now.



A tube like Psvane CV181-T Mk.2 wouldn't even sit all the way in and I agree, it looks way better with tube saver.


----------



## tafens

AudioProm said:


> A tube like Psvane CV181-T Mk.2 wouldn't even sit all the way in and I agree, it looks way better with tube saver.



As does any tube I’d say; the beauty that is a tube should never be hidden! 

(I guess there are exceptions though, at least if you ask @bcowen I think GEs are out )


----------



## AudioProm

tafens said:


> As does any tube I’d say; the beauty that is a tube should never be hidden!
> 
> (I guess there are exceptions though, at least if you ask @bcowen I think GEs are out )



Unless it's looking like this 





I'm still new to tubes but seems like there are some with passionate dislike of GE's tubes out there


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## rmsanger (Apr 8, 2020)

AppleheadMay said:


> Since the sockets sit so deep in the Lyr I bought these risers/socket savers to use with my Shuguang SE and Psvane CV181-TIIto show more of the tube:
> https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Gold-Octal-8pin-EL34-KT88-6SN7-6V6-GZ34-6L6-5Z3-Tube-Socket-Saver-Base/173494881620?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
> 
> Man, these simple things are very well built: much heavier and solidly built than I expected and they have a very tight and clamping connection.
> The pictures don't do them justice at all and the tubes in the Lyr look much better now.



I have the Lyr 1 so this won't fit mine.. Does anybody have a suggestion for a quality socket saver that will fit mine?  I've searched a bit and most good options that were used 2-3 years ago are out of stock and the ones I'm finding look pretty poor in quality.

example:
https://www.amazon.com/Socket-Saver-9-Pin-Miniature/dp/B00E1P2SD2


----------



## tafens

rmsanger said:


> I have the Lyr 1 so this won't fit mine.. Does anybody have a suggestion for a quality socket saver that will fit mine?  I've searched a bit and most good options that were used 2-3 years ago are out of stock and the ones I'm finding look pretty poor in quality.
> 
> example:
> https://www.amazon.com/Socket-Saver-9-Pin-Miniature/dp/B00E1P2SD2



Something like this?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/273472739889

Suzier brand. I have the Suzier octal socket saver and it works without problem.


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## AppleheadMay

tafens said:


> Something like this?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/273472739889
> 
> Suzier brand. I have the Suzier octal socket saver and it works without problem.




Yep, take that one, Suzier is the brand I have as well for the 6SN7


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Baten

Guys what's a solid 6SN7 contender for the Lyr3 in 2020?

Westinghouse reliatron still a solid recommendation?


----------



## AppleheadMay

i”m pretty happy with both the Treasure Globe LE and CV181 MKIi from Psvane.


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## Baten

AppleheadMay said:


> i”m pretty happy with both the Treasure Globe LE and CV181 MKIi from Psvane.


the globe looks nice. I was looking into these: https://www.thetubestore.com/northern-electric-6sn7
NORTHERN ELECTRIC 6SN7. looks good to me, anyone tried these before?


----------



## AppleheadMay

I bought my 6SN7 tubes here: http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/purchase/shop-by-tube-model/6sn7-aka-cv181/
From Canada but fast shipping and they make up the papers right so import was pretty low.
They have 4 kinds of 6SN7 at various prices.

From what I found on the web at the time I looked for the tubes The Northern Electric and Sophia 6SN7 were the same tubes and though good tubes they were less favored than the Psvane ones. Just info I found around on forums, take it with the necessary grain of salt, I never heard them.


----------



## Ripper2860

Baten said:


> Guys what's a solid 6SN7 contender for the Lyr3 in 2020?
> 
> Westinghouse reliatron still a solid recommendation?




YES!!!


----------



## Monahans67

I had one of the Westinghouse reliatron in my tube box and didn't know what it was and had never listened to it.  I sent a picture to Ripper and he said it was the tube Westinghouse reliatron.  Tried it and in fact listening to it right now and it is a very good tube.  I highly recommend it along with the Foton's that BCowan turned me on to.  Highly recommend it....


----------



## Monahans67

Monahans67 said:


> I had one of the Westinghouse reliatron in my tube box and didn't know what it was and had never listened to it.  I sent a picture to Ripper and he said it was the tube Westinghouse reliatron.  Tried it and in fact listening to it right now and it is a very good tube.  I highly recommend it along with the Foton's that BCowan turned me on to.  Highly recommend it....


Sorry forgot to add the Kenrad Black Glass.


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## Baten (Apr 18, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> YES!!!


Hehe I see some available NOS for 60$ excellent condition, reliatron brand.

Right now I ordered some black brimar 6SN7, some Russian MELZ through-hole.
Now wondering if the Westinghouse is a worthwhile addition. I haven't even tried them all yet though, corona delays shipments by a lot.

Maybe I should stop looking at tubes


----------



## Ripper2860

The Brimars are excellent and will be tough to beat.  The WH are still a resounding YES from me, however. They have a different sound signature than Brimar.   Not worse or better - just a bit different.  I rate the WH a tad higher the KENRAD VT231, IMHO.


----------



## Baten

Ripper2860 said:


> The Brimars are excellent and will be tough to beat.  The WH are still a resounding YES from me, however. They have a different sound signature than Brimar.   Not worse or better - just a bit different.  I rate the WH a tad higher the KENRAD VT231, IMHO.


That's high praise


----------



## Ripper2860

Yep.


----------



## earnmyturns

Ripper2860 said:


> I rate the WH a tad higher the KENRAD VT231, IMHO.


I've fallen off the Lyr 3/6SN7 bandwagon, but when I was still there, my favorites were a Westinghouse Reliatron and a Psvane 6SN7-SE (treasure globe). Beat several others, including Kenrad VT231, which was in the end a bit too soft-edged for my taste.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

Im up to almost 30 now.  My wife saw my tube box the other day and she said "You think you have enough tubes?"  I looked at her and said just a second and let me go count all the rolls of material you have for ALL your sewing machines and i'll answer you.  She just smiled and went to get a cup of coffee.  LOL


----------



## Zachik

Monahans67 said:


> Im up to almost 30 now.  My wife saw my tube box the other day and she said "You think you have enough tubes?"  I looked at her and said just a second and let me go count all the rolls of material you have for ALL your sewing machines and i'll answer you.  She just smiled and went to get a cup of coffee.  LOL


I posted here a while ago:
My GF has asked me a while back "why do you need so many headphones, when you only have 2 ears?".
My response to her: "how many feet do you have, dear?"
She never made a snarky comment about my headphone collection again!!!


----------



## Monahans67

Zachik said:


> I posted here a while ago:
> My GF has asked me a while back "why do you need so many headphones, when you only have 2 ears?".
> My response to her: "how many feet do you have, dear?"
> She never made a snarky comment about my headphone collection again!!!


In all honesty when you have been married 53 years like us it is just friendly banter anyway.  I don't know what I did to deserve a gem like her.


----------



## Monahans67

Monahans67 said:


> In all honesty when you have been married 53 years like us it is just friendly banter anyway.  I don't know what I did to deserve a gem like her.


OK now back to harassing bcowen and Ripper. LOL


----------



## Progrocker111

Hi folks,

just wanna ask you, cause i have had some small Schiit Lyr 3 accident. I was listening through my Hifiman Arya headphones very very loudly (like i always do) and during some loud deep bass synth sounds the amp suddenly went off (rebooted), became silent and after approx. 40 seconds i heard the well-known relay click and was on again like it was simply again turned on. So practically the amp restarted itself. At first i was scared that my headphones were fried - but no, they are absolutely ok and they werent nearly even sounding distorted in this loud volume listening level, in which i am listening very often (Hifiman Arya are really great for loud listening)

Might it be some amp relay protection to reboot the amp in very loud setting, which could damage the headphones? Anyone with the same experience here? 

Many thanks for answers


----------



## kiwivda

Progrocker111 said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> just wanna ask you, cause i have had some small Schiit Lyr 3 accident. I was listening through my Hifiman Arya headphones very very loudly (like i always do) and during some loud deep bass synth sounds the amp suddenly went off (rebooted), became silent and after approx. 40 seconds i heard the well-known relay click and was on again like it was simply again turned on. So practically the amp restarted itself. At first i was scared that my headphones were fried - but no, they are absolutely ok and they werent nearly even sounding distorted in this loud volume listening level, in which i am listening very often (Hifiman Arya are really great for loud listening)
> 
> ...


same problem here, I've sent the unit back and they made a regulation


----------



## Semper HiFi

Joining the Lyr 3 tube rolling bandwagon... I was trying to convince myself to go SS because of how neurotic tube rolling makes me, but alas here I am!

I have the NOS Russian, new production Tung Sol, and a Sylvania Bad Boy. From what I have read here I was expecting to like the Bad Boy the most but I just keep going back to the NOS Russian as my favorite. The Bad Boy seems too warm and bloated in the lower end, especially the mid-bass (my headphones already have a mid-bass hump). The Tung Sol while having good detail and more air than either of the others just seems too dry and boring. As always, synergy is king and it probably has to do with the specifics of my setup: Bifrost Multibit > Lyr 3 > ZMF Atticus

What would y'all recommend I look for next? I was considering trying the RCA Grey Glass but because of my experience with the Bad Boy I'm thinking this will be too warm as well. Maybe try a Ken Rad or a Westinghouse D-Getter? What is similar but different than the NOS Russian tube? Maybe a Photon with the ribbed plates? MELZ/1578 ? I listen mostly to metal of various genres and have mid-centric headphones. Love them mids, but It appears you can have too much of a good thing!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Edit: this is about the best deal going on '50's Fotons, just FYI:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-6N8S-...645882?hash=item23cc316a3a:g:zcMAAOSwY9pd3OhS


I have purchased tubes from this seller before. To make sense when taking shipping cost into account - I bought 4, and a good thing I did because 1 of them arrived broken (as in glass was smashed)... Seller refunded me the partial amount, and the other 3 are good!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Why didn't you just re-solder the glass? Sheeez. Newbies.


Crap!  Should have asked you before throwing to the trash... 



bcowen said:


> I have a (barely) adequate safety stock on the smooth plate '50's for now, so I'll leave what he has left for everyone else...you know, me being a nice guy and all. LOL!


Where do you keep all of those tubes?! 
(I guess the better question is: how do you keep your wife from throwing a fit???)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Semper HiFi

bcowen said:


> Based on what you've described, the RCA gray glass would not be my first suggestion. It's a great tube, but you might find it even warmer than the Bad Boy. A Foton would be a good gamble. While the ribbed plates ('55 and earlier and some '56's) are best, the '57's, 58's, and '59's are pretty darn close and a lot less expensive. Stay away from the '60's or later though for best sound. A true Melz 1578 would also be a good choice, but pricey (~$100/tube). Be aware that both the Fotons and Melz have a high incident rate of degraded solder in the pins. If you can solder and replace (or even just re-flow) the solder, then it's not a big task or a big deal. If you can't solder or don't want to, just keep that in mind if you go that route (you could get a tube that hums or sputters).  The WH-D getter is also a good bet, as is a Frankie (it's a 7N7 so requires an adapter).  And there are also many good Sylvanias beyond the Bad Boys, although I can't be much help in guiding you to the best ones.
> 
> Edit: this is about the best deal going on '50's Fotons, just FYI:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-6N8S-...645882?hash=item23cc316a3a:g:zcMAAOSwY9pd3OhS



Thanks, that's some great info there! I went ahead and ordered a pair of the 50s Fotons you linked to. And that's quite the collection! Have you tried the metal base non-hole plate MELZ?

Does anyone else think that the Schiit NOS Russian tube looks suspiciously similar to a Foton?

Also, are the Westinghouse D-getters usually GTBs with yellow print on the base?


----------



## KoshNaranek

bcowen said:


> As far as the wife, as best she knows these came from garage sales for a dollar or two each. I'm always honest with her...a few of them actually did (but not the Fotons). LOL!


I grew up about 10 miles away from the RCA tube plant. The local flea market used to have large selections of tubes that people had 'found' in their basements.

I distinctly remember stopping at one seller that had boxes and boxes of tubes withred bases. Asking price was 25 cents


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


>



Nice stash! I noticed there are two “Bad” ones on the top rows there, just send them to me and I’ll dispose of them properly for you


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## MtnMan307

I probably should have done more research before I bought an "Amperex" 6SN7 on eBay.  I think I paid 30 bucks for a Russian off brand tube instead.


----------



## Baten

bcowen said:


> A true Melz 1578 would also be a good choice, but pricey (~$100/tube).


So I bought two Melz, one $60 one $80 both tested NOS and matched. The pricier one is an original 1578.
The other one appears to be a 6N8S Melz looking at this picture :/ both with hole plates





Is the 6N8S also decent or is it only the 1578 that are truly good?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Baten

bcowen said:


> $80 for a NOS true 1578 is a great deal. Most of these I see are at $100 or more.  Hopefully the seller's claims that it tests at NOS levels and has balanced (matched) triodes is true, and if so you did _very_ well.
> 
> The 6N8S is still a great sounding tube, just not as accomplished as a true 1578.  $60 is on the high side price-wise for one of those, but having it tested and at NOS values is worth a premium (IMO) as many selling for less money are sold either as-is with no testing, or claimed tested but with no meaningful measurement data included.  I think the hole plate 6N8S sounds a bit better than the solid plate version. The solid plates are (again, IMO) on par with the '50's Fotons -- a bit different presentation but overall very good sounding tubes, and the 6N8S hole plates perhaps just a bit better than both of those. Differences are not huge though -- the true 1578 is where a more significant difference exists.


Thanks!


----------



## Semper HiFi

That 1578 sure is a nice looking tube. The fact that it has great sonic qualities to back it up puts it high on my list of tubes to get. Price is the only thing keeping me away...

In addition to the Fotons I ordered, I've got a Westinghouse D-getter and a National Union "black glass" on the way.


----------



## Baten

Semper HiFi said:


> That 1578 sure is a nice looking tube. The fact that it has great sonic qualities to back it up puts it high on my list of tubes to get. Price is the only thing keeping me away...
> 
> In addition to the Fotons I ordered, I've got a Westinghouse D-getter and a National Union "black glass" on the way.



Hahah 3 is already plenty for now, no


----------



## Semper HiFi

Baten said:


> Hahah 3 is already plenty for now, no



That's four tubes, all NOS, for less than your one MELZ 
At that price, I don't think you can have too many!

Seriously though, I'm done for now.


(checks Ebay for new 6SN7 listings....)


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Semper HiFi

Great website I found about about vacuum tube history and design. There is an incredible wealth of information here. See all the links at the bottom of the page:

https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/



A website I stumbled across that has many reviews of the sonic qualities of various 6sn7 tubes:

http://tubemaze.info/tag/6sn7


----------



## reddasher

HI All, I'm new to tube amps... is 1633 tube is 40s RCA "Grey Glass?" its just looks different so Im confused:\...





Is it different than this one?


----------



## domes

Ripper2860 said:


> The Brimars are excellent and will be tough to beat.  The WH are still a resounding YES from me, however. They have a different sound signature than Brimar.   Not worse or better - just a bit different.  I rate the WH a tad higher the KENRAD VT231, IMHO.


I am in the mood for change and just bought the Sundara as decided to finally buy a 2nd pair of phones besides my HD600s.  I have a Westinghouse and have been using with my Lyr3 but was never able to determine if it is a real one.  The box it came in stated relatron.  If it isn't one, still sounds good but in the mood of change.  Ripper2860, I think you have the Sundara? What's your 2nd choice with the Sundara?  Brimars?  Seem really hard to find and very expensive.  How do you like the RCA grey glass?  KenRad is interesting but bit more than the RCA and if my WH is better than is it worth it?


----------



## Semper HiFi

Brimar you said? Only $750 for a set!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-GT-CV...tched-Pair-within1-0-/133402384621?nav=SEARCH


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 4, 2020)

domes said:


> I am in the mood for change and just bought the Sundara as decided to finally buy a 2nd pair of phones besides my HD600s.  I have a Westinghouse and have been using with my Lyr3 but was never able to determine if it is a real one.  The box it came in stated relatron.  If it isn't one, still sounds good but in the mood of change.  Ripper2860, I think you have the Sundara? What's your 2nd choice with the Sundara?  Brimars?  Seem really hard to find and very expensive.  How do you like the RCA grey glass?  KenRad is interesting but bit more than the RCA and if my WH is better than is it worth it?



I no longer have Sundara,, having upgraded to Ananda and finally Arya, but I loved them while I had them!

If the WH is a GTB Realitron with black ladder / offset plates and top D getter, then it's the one.  As far as RCA goes, I have a couple -- a 1945 Gray Class and a 1942 Gray Glass.  I'm a bit partial to the 1942, but basically anything 1945 or prior is a good bet.  Sonic-wise on Lyr 3, it is a bit more tube-like than most of my other tubes with top-end a bit more rolled off than the WD.  A bit warmer sounding tube, if you're looking to warm-up the Sundaras.  It has very nice mids and a nice bit of bass punch, although not as extended or reaching as low as the WH or KR.  Not bass-shy, just doesn't seem to plow quite as deep.  Of course, that's my opinion, with my music, my ears, and my gear.

Warning: If you want a real treat -- pickup a 12AU7 (tube) to 6SN7 (amp) adapter and spring for a Tubemonger Brimar CV-4033 or 4034. I think you will not regret it. 



Semper HiFi said:


> Brimar you said? Only $750 for a set!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7-GT-CV...tched-Pair-within1-0-/133402384621?nav=SEARCH



I can assure you that I did not spend anywhere near that much!!  $90 is the max I paid for a Brimar 6SN7GT clear glass and $105 for a Brimar / Marconi Black Glass. Hell, I wouldn't pay that much for a pair of Brimar brown-base CV1988s, but then again, I'm a cheapskate.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 5, 2020)

reddasher said:


> HI All, I'm new to tube amps... is 1633 tube is 40s RCA "Grey Glass?" its just looks different so Im confused:\...
> 
> 
> Is it different than this one?



Edited. 

There seems to be confusing info.  Some I've found says it is an early  6SN7 equivalent, but other info seems to indicate 25v heater element whereas 6SN7 has a 6.3v heater element.


----------



## reddasher (May 5, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> Edited.
> 
> There seems to be confusing info.  Some I've found says it is an early  6SN7 equivalent, but other info seems to indicate 25v heater element whereas 6SN7 has a 6.3v heater element.



Got it. Thank you!

Regarding Westinghouse reliatron you mentioned in prev. Posts. What is the exact model, I can't find 6sn7 reliatron on eBay for some reason.


----------



## reddasher

Another question... Is ken rads clear glass any different vs black?


----------



## Semper HiFi

reddasher said:


> Another question... Is ken rads clear glass any different vs black?



According to this guy, there is no difference:
"Despite many discussions on the topic of Black vs Clear, there are no difference – sound wise – between clear glass and black glass versions of Ken-Rad 6SN7 tube. I tried to find them in multiple amps, but failed."
http://tubemaze.info/tag/6sn7/page/2/

Brent Jessee says on his site that the clear glass is "nearly identical to Ken Rad VT-231"
http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm

Also, see what bcowen says about recognizing the D-getter:


bcowen said:


> On the Westinghouse, check out the tube on the right in this listing (not suggesting you buy this particular listing, just linking it for the picture which is good at showing what to look for):
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-3-W...395048?hash=item1f0d603528:g:9hUAAOSwZBhed76X
> 
> Tall bottle, chrome top with black ladder-style plates that are offset from each other (one is more 'left' and the other is more 'right' if that makes any sense) and then the D-getter up top. Some may refer to it as a horseshoe getter as those terms are used interchangeably a lot.  Some of these are labeled as "Reliatron" and some aren't, but I can't tell any difference between the two sonically. You can also find these under other brand names -- I have one labeled as Coronado that's clearly the WH-D, and there may be other branding as well.


----------



## Baten (May 5, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> I no longer have Sundara,, having upgraded to Ananda and finally Arya, but I loved them while I had them!
> 
> If the WH is a GTB Realitron with black ladder / offset plates and top D getter, then it's the one.  As far as RCA goes, I have a couple -- a 1945 Gray Class and a 1942 Gray Glass.  I'm a bit partial to the 1942, but basically anything 1945 or prior is a good bet.  Sonic-wise on Lyr 3, it is a bit more tube-like than most of my other tubes with top-end a bit more rolled off than the WD.  A bit warmer sounding tube, if you're looking to warm-up the Sundaras.  It has very nice mids and a nice bit of bass punch, although not as extended or reaching as low as the WH or KR.  Not bass-shy, just doesn't seem to plow quite as deep.  Of course, that's my opinion, with my music, my ears, and my gear.
> 
> ...


I'm waiting for a pair of brimar brown-base CV1988 tested NOS, few people even bid on it lol! Happy to have won the auction.
But.. tracking is stuck. Seller has not brought the item to the post yet, starting to get a little worried..


----------



## Baten

Ripper2860 said:


> Warning: If you want a real treat -- pickup a 12AU7 (tube) to 6SN7 (amp) adapter and spring for a Tubemonger Brimar CV-4033 or 4034. I think you will not regret it.


Gosh now I need to try this....


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## reddasher

Guys, I see at least 4 WH Tubes. Which i should get? (Non of those says reliatron)
https://www.partsconnexion.com/nos-6sn7-westinghouse-vacuum-tubes.html


----------



## domes

Ripper2860 said:


> I no longer have Sundara,, having upgraded to Ananda and finally Arya, but I loved them while I had them!
> 
> If the WH is a GTB Realitron with black ladder / offset plates and top D getter, then it's the one.  As far as RCA goes, I have a couple -- a 1945 Gray Class and a 1942 Gray Glass.  I'm a bit partial to the 1942, but basically anything 1945 or prior is a good bet.  Sonic-wise on Lyr 3, it is a bit more tube-like than most of my other tubes with top-end a bit more rolled off than the WD.  A bit warmer sounding tube, if you're looking to warm-up the Sundaras.  It has very nice mids and a nice bit of bass punch, although not as extended or reaching as low as the WH or KR.  Not bass-shy, just doesn't seem to plow quite as deep.  Of course, that's my opinion, with my music, my ears, and my gear.
> 
> ...


I must have been early in the woods on the Sundara thread when I saw that.  Thanks for the info!  I am starting to think I really don't have the WH you are referring to and the Brimar model with the adapter is an option I didn't even know was possible.


----------



## Ripper2860

reddasher said:


> Guys, I see at least 4 WH Tubes. Which i should get? (Non of those says reliatron)
> https://www.partsconnexion.com/nos-6sn7-westinghouse-vacuum-tubes.html



The $37.46 one looks like it -- IF it has a D SHAPED getter holder on top (obscured in pic by the flashing).  If it is a HALO (round) getter holder it is a no.


----------



## Baten

Is that partsconnexion site for tubes legit? They have a pretty big selection.


----------



## Ripper2860

I can't say as I've never dealt with them.  I'm sure others will chime in.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Baten said:


> Is that partsconnexion site for tubes legit? They have a pretty big selection.


They are legit. I wouldn't use them to get matched sets but for singles, they are fine


----------



## reddasher

Ripper2860 said:


> I can't say as I've never dealt with them.  I'm sure others will chime in.


Then I probably should buy from here : https://tubeworldexpress.com/products/6sn7gtb-westinghouse-1957?_pos=23&_sid=8d8037dde&_ss=r
It explicitly says D getter


----------



## Ripper2860

Yep.  That's the one.


----------



## Semper HiFi

Is there such thing as a Westinghouse with staggered black ladder plates and an O-getter? It's sometimes hard to see around the getter flashing as to what's in there.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yes, there is.  Some say there's a sonic diff and some say if there's any, it is quite minimal. Member @ProfFalkin did a comparison and found that there is a difference, but both had good qualities.  I say hold out for a D getter, but that's me.  BTW - If it says Reliatron on the base odds are it is a D getter.


----------



## domes

reddasher said:


> Then I probably should buy from here : https://tubeworldexpress.com/products/6sn7gtb-westinghouse-1957?_pos=23&_sid=8d8037dde&_ss=r
> It explicitly says D getter


Bummer, sold out!!


----------



## reddasher

domes said:


> Bummer, sold out!!


I guess I grabbed the last one


----------



## domes

Ripper2860 said:


> Yep.  That's the one.


Is it just the GTB version that is the WH holy grail version or is GTA just as good?  This one is available for $10 more.
https://tubeworldexpress.com/products/6sn7gta-westinghouse-usa-black-plates-d-getter-halo-nos-1957


----------



## Ripper2860

domes said:


> Is it just the GTB version that is the WH holy grail version or is GTA just as good?  This one is available for $10 more.
> https://tubeworldexpress.com/products/6sn7gta-westinghouse-usa-black-plates-d-getter-halo-nos-1957



The highly regarded WH was only GTB.


----------



## Mr Trev

Ripper2860 said:


> I no longer have Sundara,, having upgraded to Ananda and finally Arya, but I loved them while I had them



Wow. You're a total headphone whore. Of course I mean that in the most positive and complimentary way


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Technically, I'm a very expensive call-person.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

6' presents no problem for me.


----------



## Baten

Anyone else tried 12AU7 tubes with a 6SN7 adapter before btw, any risks? It works fine/safe in the Lyr 3?
something like a CV4003 has a 6.3V filament so seems compatible enough, on a glance


----------



## Ripper2860

What?  You don't trust me?  

12AT7 and 12AU7 will work fine with the proper adapter.  The proper adapter will be wired to operate at 6v as opposed to 12v for the dual voltage mode tubes.


----------



## Baten

Ripper2860 said:


> 12AT7 and 12AU7 will work fine with the proper adapter.  The proper adapter will be wired to operate at 6v as opposed to 12v for the dual voltage mode tubes.


I'm just worried about the amp  but glad to hear it should be no problem~

any chance you can link the adapter you use?


----------



## Ripper2860

I use one made by a member here at HF as I prefer his over the Chinese made adapters. In fact he has made all my adapters for me (2C51, 6922, 7N7, ECC40, 12AT/U7, etc).  Send him a PM and I'm sure he can get you hooked-up.  The member ID is @Deyan .  He comes highly recommended by several members here.


----------



## domes

Reading part of this 268 page thread the last two days has got the best of me.  I gave up on finding a WH D getter for now and just bought a Ken Rad VT-231 black glass from Brent Jesse.  I will have to be patient as he mentioned he is behind on getting orders shipped out as it seems everyone is buying tubes being on lock down.


----------



## LoryWiv

domes said:


> Reading part of this 268 page thread the last two days has got the best of me.  I gave up on finding a WH D getter for now and just bought a Ken Rad VT-231 black glass from Brent Jesse.  I will have to be patient as he mentioned he is behind on getting orders shipped out as it seems everyone is buying tubes being on lock down.


Nice, let us know how they work out for you!


----------



## domes

Still reading thread, which is just great and seemed the right next move while waiting for the Ken Rad is I bought two 1958 Fotons on eBay from el-rayder.  Over a month wait but for $12 I can wait.


----------



## Monahans67

You will be very happy with the foton.  I think they are a hidden gem.


----------



## LoryWiv

Monahans67 said:


> You will be very happy with the foton.  I think they are a hidden gem.


For those of us who don't have soldering skills, is the pin instabilty issue  a reason to avoid these?


----------



## Monahans67

If you don't resolder they just take longer to burn in.  I have several and have not resolved but found someone to resolder for me.  Resolder takes like 50 hours to burn in, like 150 without solder job approximately. I'm waiting for 2 more to arrive then will have all 7 resoldered.


----------



## domes

Is this a D getter?  Looks more like a square getter. Is there such a thing?


----------



## Zachik

domes said:


> Is this a D getter?


Yes.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

bcowen said:


> 150 hours?  You're making me look bad.  Prepare for a chiding from @Paladin79 shortly.


OK 200, geez whose counting, lol.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Dang.  @Zachik is right.  Our world *is* changing.


Even a broken clock shows the right time twice a day...


----------



## Paladin79 (May 8, 2020)

Monahans67 said:


> OK 200, geez whose counting, lol.


I sat around for a tube to cook for 100 hours because of some guy I will not mention (@bcowen) and thought, OMG this cannot be right!!!   So I thought it through and got the solution down to like ten minutes lol. Even at 100 or 200 hours or whatever, set that tube on a shelf and come back and check it in a month, and be prepared to start all over with the burn in lol. I prefer a more exact fix.

My current 6sn7 listening setup but I start more builds tomorrow.


----------



## Monahans67

Paladin79 said:


> I sat around for a tube to cook for 100 hours because of some guy I will not mention (@bcowen) and thought, OMG this cannot be right!!!   So I thought it through and got the solution down to like ten minutes lol. Even at 100 or 200 hours or whatever, set that tube on a shelf and come back and check it in a month, and be prepared to start all over with the burn in lol. I prefer a more exact fix.
> 
> My current 6sn7 listening setup but I start more builds tomorrow.


Yeah a guy named Bill said I could stop at 500 hours but if I ever let it cool down I have to do it everytime I use it.  Thats why I bought another Lyr 3.  He said the only other option was to send them to Ripper and have him burn them in with the Barbie car audio system.


----------



## Paladin79

Monahans67 said:


> Yeah a guy named Bill said I could stop at 500 hours but if I ever let it cool down I have to do it everytime I use it.  Thats why I bought another Lyr 3.  He said the only other option was to send them to Ripper and have him burn them in with the Barbie car audio system.


One has to be careful of those who offer advice, there are a lot of crazy people running around out there, or getting elected to public office.


----------



## Monahans67

Too funny. Lol. Yeah I know a few....


----------



## earnmyturns

About to ship out the Apex Peak, my remaining 6SN7 amp, so saying saying to y'all: so long and thanks for all the tips.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Monahans67

bcowen said:


> No need to be cryptic.  We all know you're referring to @Ripper2860 .


I guess my military training causes some of my cryptic posts.  We were taught to create a cloud of dust and then slip out through the rear door.  LOL  I tried that with Ripper and when I opened the door there was a dominatrix Barbie looking at me.  I am guessing it escaped from his basement dungeon somehow.  Scared the living daylights out of me.   LOL


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 9, 2020)

Monahans67 said:


> I am guessing it escaped from his basement dungeon somehow



Love Lair.  It's called The Love Lair -- not the basement dungeon.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Just 'cause you're bidding farewell to 6SN7's doesn't mean you have to say bye to *us*. Drop in every now and then if just to say howdy.   I've always enjoyed your posts and contributions.


I am sure we'll be seeing him - they all come back eventually...


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Love Lair.  It's called The Love Lair -- not the basement dungeon.


One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. One man's love lair is another man's creepy dungeon.


----------



## Monahans67

Paladin79 said:


> One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. One man's love lair is another man's creepy dungeon.


I don't know if Ripper told you or not but one of his Barbies told me that he got a new amp from somebody and he installed it in his pink Barbie car.  I didn't know your amps could be used from car battery installation.  OK I guess I have picked on Ripper enough for today.  I do however guess wrong sometimes. LOL


----------



## Paladin79

Monahans67 said:


> I don't know if Ripper told you or not but one of his Barbies told me that he got a new amp from somebody and he installed it in his pink Barbie car.  I didn't know your amps could be used from car battery installation.  OK I guess I have picked on Ripper enough for today.  I do however guess wrong sometimes. LOL


Well that amp ships Monday so hopefully he is molesting another amp in the Barbie car lol. I had to get some of the practice amps out of the way before I built a serious one. This is one I began this morning for myself.


----------



## Ripper2860

Practice amps?


----------



## Paladin79 (May 9, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> Practice amps?


Errr extremely low serial numbered original versions? Besides, I built Bill's long before yours.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 9, 2020)

Much better.  Don't forget HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE, ONE-OF-A-KIND, and RARE.


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> Practice amps?



Yes, you know, like the one I got and the one your getting!


----------



## Monahans67

Wow Paladin your wood work alone is very, very nice.    Isn't sanding fun, LOL.  I think you make some very nice collectible amps and I am sure the members here on the site who buy those will really enjoy them.  Good job my friend.


----------



## Paladin79

Monahans67 said:


> Wow Paladin your wood work alone is very, very nice.    Isn't sanding fun, LOL.  I think you make some very nice collectible amps and I am sure the members here on the site who buy those will really enjoy them.  Good job my friend.


Thanks I have many years in electronics so that part is easy for me. I have four different power tools for sanding so that helps a lot. I do hand sand with 3,000 grit between coats of clear lacquer.  Most everyone who has heard the amp wanted one so I have over 30 to build for mostly local friends. I cannot help one friend and refuse another.


----------



## Zachik

Paladin79 said:


> Most everyone who has heard the amp wanted one so I have over 30 to build for mostly local friends.


Please post more info on this amp. And photos, of course!  
(if you have the info on a different thread - please post a link)


----------



## Paladin79

Zachik said:


> Please post more info on this amp. And photos, of course!
> (if you have the info on a different thread - please post a link)


I answered this once before but maybe you did not see it? PM me and I will answer whatever questions you have, I am not sure if there is a thread here covering amps that individuals design.  If there is, please post a link.

Anyway I am probably off topic for this thread anyway. I do own a Lyr 3 and have done some fairly extensive work with 6sn7's including a blind test I conducted with Jason at Schiit. I have run those tubes in several different amps and I am involved with a local audiophile group that will be blind testing 52 top of the line tubes in four identical amps I designed for that purpose. Because of social distancing and the virus, that testing has been put on hold for the time being.
 Many of the folks hearing that amp wanted one for themselves. Most of those folks being friends, I was not sure if they were just being kind to me in their assessment of the amp so I sent one to @bcowen and a few other friends on here for evaluation. They convinced me that it might be worthwhile to build more of the amps so I have been playing around with that. I personally do not hear a lot of difference between quality tubes in the Lyr 3 and wanted something a little more definitive. Others may hear a vast difference when rolling tubes in that amp but my abilities must not be on a par with many of those folks. The amp building is not for profit and strictly a hobby.  I gifted an amp to @bcowen because of his generosity in sending me various tubes over the last year or two.

This is the most extensive build to date, and this went to a friend in Pennsylvania. Walnut with maple splines, and about 1.5 pounds of brushed copper.  I only build Class A OTL amps and they put out over one watt and are made for high impedance headphones only.  Often times I add pre-amp out that is not switchable so you can remove headphones and hear what your speakers sound like for comparison.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Robosculpts

Hey yall, bought a used Lyr 3 and I'm excited to start rolling tubes. My headphones are lcd2 pre fazer. any advice on what to look out for when buying tubes? any recs for tubes?


----------



## bcowen

Robosculpts said:


> Hey yall, bought a used Lyr 3 and I'm excited to start rolling tubes. My headphones are lcd2 pre fazer. any advice on what to look out for when buying tubes? any recs for tubes?



Tons of advice and thoughts already in this thread.


----------



## Zachik

Paladin79 said:


> I answered this once before but maybe you did not see it? PM me and I will answer whatever questions you have, I am not sure if there is a thread here covering amps that individuals design. If there is, please post a link.


I think this thread is a good place to share info about and discuss your designs:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/



Paladin79 said:


> Because of social distancing and the virus, that testing has been put on hold for the time being.


To keep the NOS (over 65 year old) tubes safe, I assume... 



Paladin79 said:


> I only build Class A OTL amps and they put out over one watt and are made for high impedance headphones only. Often times I add pre-amp out that is not switchable so you can remove headphones and hear what your speakers sound like for comparison.


Did you (or any of your friends) compare this design to Bottlehead Crack? 
Speaking of which, assuming you're not considering turning this into a business - you should consider publishing this design, including BOM and instructions, so people can build it themselves (just like the Bottlehead Crack). There is a huge following to the BHC, and if your design is a different flavor (or improved design) - MANY would thank you!!


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 10, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I just hope he's molesting an amp this time instead of his usual fare.



Variety is the spice of life.  Besides, what a man does with his ported loudspeaker in the privacy of his home is not anyone else's bizzness.  



bcowen said:


> That it will be.  All the parts in your amp are ones that got bent up and damaged from, um, _practicing._



Must I remind you of who was the beneficiary of the 1st one?


----------



## Mr Trev

[QUOTE="Zachik, post: 15606608, member: 416545"

Speaking of which, assuming you're not considering turning this into a business - you should consider publishing this design, including BOM and instructions, so people can build it themselves (just like the Bottlehead Crack). There is a huge following to the BHC, and if your design is a different flavor (or improved design) - MANY would thank you!!
[/QUOTE]

A DIY kit would be awesome. As purty as your amps are, I'm not really into furniture grade woodwork - the giant hunk of copper is cool though. Could definitely save myself some $$ there. Heck, I could Canadian-ify it and use a beer cooler for a case.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 10, 2020)

Nope.  He's building his now with the internal parts you provided for your amp.   Don't worry, he substituted for parts of similar ratings and as far as being of the same quality?  I'm sure they are probably close.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 10, 2020)

All that matters is how it sounds.  I already have my eye on an uber expensive fuse which should more than compensate for any parts that may have been on clearance.


----------



## Paladin79

Zachik said:


> I think this thread is a good place to share info about and discuss your designs:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-diyrs-cookbook.781268/
> 
> 
> ...



If you so  a search for Steampunk Bottlehead Crack in google images eight out of ten images are of Cracks or similar amps I have done. Mine were highly modified and yes I have compared them to BH Cracks but I cannot objectively comment on the differences.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf...pAhWRWM0KHYXXD0UQsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=1920&bih=937

I am not doing a BOM or DIY kit because while I may move on to other things, friends are discussing doing something as a business if I sell the rights to the amp. I want to keep that option open.


----------



## Paladin79

Mr Trev said:


> [QUOTE="Zachik, post: 15606608, member: 416545"
> 
> Speaking of which, assuming you're not considering turning this into a business - you should consider publishing this design, including BOM and instructions, so people can build it themselves (just like the Bottlehead Crack). There is a huge following to the BHC, and if your design is a different flavor (or improved design) - MANY would thank you!!



A DIY kit would be awesome. As purty as your amps are, I'm not really into furniture grade woodwork - the giant hunk of copper is cool though. Could definitely save myself some $$ there. Heck, I could Canadian-ify it and use a beer cooler for a case.
[/QUOTE]
I am not sure why the beer cooler idea does not excite me lol. I did some of the early work on the Schiit coaster amp and it was always a dream to mount one in a scotch bottle, but... I never quite got there. I did mount one in an eight ball, in a tobacco tin, as a flying saucer etc.

https://www.google.com/search?q=coa...UXbc0KHSLjCPEQ_AUoAnoECAsQBA&biw=1920&bih=937

I never quite did a snow globe either.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I am not sure why the beer cooler idea does not excite me lol. I did some of the early work on the Schiit coaster amp and it was always a dream to mount one in a scotch bottle, but... I never quite got there. I did mount one in an eight ball, in a tobacco tin, as a flying saucer etc.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=coa...UXbc0KHSLjCPEQ_AUoAnoECAsQBA&biw=1920&bih=937
> 
> I never quite did a snow globe either.



I thought you installed a Coaster amp in this as a gift for @Ripper2860 's 16th birthday? Or was that 26th?  Can't remember...  


[/QUOTE]





This was an amp mounted in a headphone rack I did for Ripper, and then I did one in copper and oak that he should have been able to mount a coaster amp in as well. As I recall I worked on that rack an entire weekend for a bottle of decent scotch. One does not live by Barbies alone you know.


----------



## Robosculpts

bcowen said:


> Tons of advice and thoughts already in this thread.


as soon as i posted that i started reading up on the thread. got too excited about the incoming amp. I ended up getting https://tubeworldexpress.com/collec...house-usa-black-plates-d-getter-halo-nos-1957 and https://tubeworldexpress.com/produc...ons-in-white-box?_pos=21&_sid=a79d97f3c&_ss=r

They seem to be popular choices so I felt a little more confident buying them.


----------



## Ripper2860

Yes!  A wonderful HP stand with a nice steam-punk motif gear / gauge piece that could be removed and replaced with a Coaster holder.  And it has a nice copper and UNC Blue patina.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Mr Trev (May 10, 2020)

Paladin79 said:


> A DIY kit would be awesome. As purty as your amps are, I'm not really into furniture grade woodwork - the giant hunk of copper is cool though. Could definitely save myself some $$ there. Heck, I could Canadian-ify it and use a beer cooler for a case.
> I am not sure why the beer cooler idea does not excite me lol. I did some of the early work on the Schiit coaster amp and it was always a dream to mount one in a scotch bottle, but... I never quite got there. I did mount one in an eight ball, in a tobacco tin, as a flying saucer etc.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=coa...UXbc0KHSLjCPEQ_AUoAnoECAsQBA&biw=1920&bih=937
> ...


That was a joke, son. No self respecting Canadian would ever ruin a perfectly good beer cooler.


----------



## Paladin79

Ripper2860 said:


> Yes!  A wonderful HP stand with a nice steam-punk motif gear / gauge piece that could be removed and replaced with a Coaster holder.  And it has a nice copper and UNC Blue patina.


I only do Duke blue patina. Have you been listening to Cowen?


----------



## Ripper2860

Don't you mean you only do Duke blue patina for Bill?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Robosculpts (May 11, 2020)

Can someone explain the little addons? Are they worth to check off when you buy a tube from this site?

The site is tube depot btw


----------



## Paladin79

Robosculpts said:


> Can someone explain the little addons? Are they worth to check off when you buy a tube from this site?
> 
> The site is tube depot btw


It is like you are buying insurance lol. If you do not check the box will they send you a noisy tube with microphonics and you are stuck with it? New tubes should have relatively close triodes, if they are selling used tubes they could vary a lot more. I have plenty that do not show matched to within say 10% and they sound fine. Just a few thoughts.


----------



## domes

LoryWiv said:


> Nice, let us know how they work out for you!


Got the Ken Rad today and been listening for a couple of hours.  The bass is definite plus and need to keep turning the volume down because I keep turning it up!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> High gain? What a crock.


Bill, are you saying one should not pay for add-ons, like I did for tubes that were stored in a natural cave, inside oak barrels, at constant 60F?!
Oh wait, that was my Pinot Noir...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## domes

After listening to the Ken Rad further I am little dissppointed as the soundstage is a bit diffused.  I am not hearing placement of instruments nor a solid focus of vocals in middle.  This is more noticeable when listening with my amplified speakers instead of headphones.  Maybe this will improve on further burn in as I only have about 12 hours on it so far.  Bass is a nice plus as I mentioned but missing some of these other qualities.  Am I assessing this tube sound correctly?  Maybe I need to be more patient or maybe I should have gone with the bad boy instead.  With the cost of the Ken Rad I was hoping for more.


----------



## Robosculpts

bcowen said:


> Good choice on the Westinghouse.  I haven't heard that particular Sylvania version, but it's hard to go wrong with practically anything Sylvania made in the '50's or earlier.  The addiction is now established.



 Popped in the Westinghouse and oh man... wont be checking out the sylvania for a bit. this sounds so good compared to the stock tube. Definitely impressed with tubes so far. coming from a 789 and its just so much more musical.


----------



## Zachik

Robosculpts said:


> Popped in the Westinghouse and oh man... wont be checking out the sylvania for a bit. this sounds so good compared to the stock tube. Definitely impressed with tubes so far. coming from a 789 and its just so much more musical.


I actually had a pre-production 789, courtesy of Drop (Massdrop at the time), and I did not like it for being non-musical. 
I definitely WAY prefer tubes!!


----------



## Paladin79

Zachik said:


> I actually had a pre-production 789, courtesy of Drop (Massdrop at the time), and I did not like it for being non-musical.
> I definitely WAY prefer tubes!!


I have gone from tubes to solid state back to tubes. They require more work and commitment but it is about the sound.


----------



## Robosculpts

would a multibit dac affect tubes differently than a delta sigma dac?


----------



## Paladin79

Robosculpts said:


> would a multibit dac affect tubes differently than a delta sigma dac?


At the end of the day, both are converting digital signals to analog and a good amp will reproduce what it is given very well. That being said, both multibit and DS DAC's can be greatly affected by power supply and output stage, one can sound better than the other. I have been involved with some blind DAC testing and some DS devices can sound very good and rate well.


----------



## Zachik

Paladin79 said:


> At the end of the day, both are converting digital signals to analog and a good amp will reproduce what it is given very well. That being said, both multibit and DS DAC's can be greatly affected by power supply and output stage, one can sound better than the other. I have been involved with some blind DAC testing and some DS devices can sound very good and rate well.


Totally agree. I had a mid-range DAC before that was "multibit" (not by Schiit), and I loved it. Used it for a year or little more, but then I auditioned a DAC that the guy refused to tell me what's inside to not bias my opinion... Long story short, it was a DS based and a noticeable upgrade in sound!


----------



## Paladin79

Zachik said:


> Totally agree. I had a mid-range DAC before that was "multibit" (not by Schiit), and I loved it. Used it for a year or little more, but then I auditioned a DAC that the guy refused to tell me what's inside to not bias my opinion... Long story short, it was a DS based and a noticeable upgrade in sound!


My local group did a test on 20 DAC’s priced from $300 to $5,000 roughly and 50 people rated them in blind listening. I had two out of order with the final results but there was a pretty amazing consensus.  Several were R2R DACs, plenty of DS, etc.


----------



## LoryWiv

Paladin79 said:


> My local group did a test on 20 DAC’s priced from $300 to $5,000 roughly and 50 people rated them in blind listening. I had two out of order with the final results but there was a pretty amazing consensus.  Several were R2R DACs, plenty of DS, etc.


That is very cool, would love to see your list, at least top 10. Thanks!


----------



## Paladin79

LoryWiv said:


> That is very cool, would love to see your list, at least top 10. Thanks!


I PM'd it, no sense starting arguments.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Paladin79

bcowen said:


> I've gone from solid state to tubes and no way I'm going back.


Yeah I am sticking with tubes and Class A for a while.


----------



## tcellguy

Stupid question. I got a socket saver and a new Tung Sol as the first one I had was starting to sound a bit soft (might be my imagination). I also have a Psvane UK on the way. 

I'm noting when rocking the tube out I think it is kind of torquing the board a bit. Is that ok? is there some way to rock the tube out safely?


----------



## Paladin79

tcellguy said:


> Stupid question. I got a socket saver and a new Tung Sol as the first one I had was starting to sound a bit soft (might be my imagination). I also have a Psvane UK on the way.
> 
> I'm noting when rocking the tube out I think it is kind of torquing the board a bit. Is that ok? is there some way to rock the tube out safely?


It is not easy to describe how much or how little to rock a tube back and forth. Something that may help is a device to help grasp the tube so it does not slip. This was suggested to my by a friend at Schiit and I absolutely love it for handling tubes, even hot tubes.

https://www.amazon.com/KongNai-Sili...fUQ&hsa_cr_id=6705116630801&ref_=sb_s_sparkle


----------



## LoryWiv

tcellguy said:


> Stupid question. I got a socket saver and a new Tung Sol as the first one I had was starting to sound a bit soft (might be my imagination). I also have a Psvane UK on the way.
> 
> I'm noting when rocking the tube out I think it is kind of torquing the board a bit. Is that ok? is there some way to rock the tube out safely?


I use a soft flannel cloth to get a firm but gentle grip on the glass...works great!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EA6D7UE/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## FLTWS

Disposable exam gloves never slip, I've been using them for decades
A box of 50 or 100 are cheap and you will probably run out before the box does.
You don't even have to put it on, just wrap around the tube.


----------



## tcellguy

Thanks for the suggestions. Should I vertically pull the tube straight up with very small degrees of rocking then?


----------



## Ripper2860

FLTWS said:


> Disposable exam gloves never slip, I've been using them for decades
> A box of 50 or 100 are cheap and you will probably run out before the box does.
> You don't even have to put it on, just wrap around the tube.



That's exactly what @bcowen recommends for removing tubes -- only its not from his amps.  Ewwww!


----------



## Monahans67

FLTWS said:


> Disposable exam gloves never slip, I've been using them for decades
> A box of 50 or 100 are cheap and you will probably run out before the box does.
> You don't even have to put it on, just wrap around the tube.





FLTWS said:


> Disposable exam gloves never slip, I've been using them for decades
> A box of 50 or 100 are cheap and you will probably run out before the box does.
> You don't even have to put it on, just wrap around the tube.


Plus it will save you and your tubes from the big "C".  Last thing we want to do is get the virus from our tubes...


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

I suspect he bought them to handle the Power tube you sent him prior to his disinfecting it.


----------



## FLTWS

I'm a part time gynecologist.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 16, 2020)

The shocking part of that post is that @bcowen  knew exactly how to find those things. But then again, given his car's vanity plates, I'm not really surprised.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Well, I'm sure you wanted to make 100% sure the tubes were dead before selling them to me.


----------



## LoryWiv

tcellguy said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. Should I vertically pull the tube straight up with very small degrees of rocking then?


Yes, exactly. Just a few degrees of rocking while pulling steadily upwards, never forcing the action. Oh my, what I am I opening myself up for here?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860

Nah.  Luby's is no fun now that I have to sit 6' away from the geriatric cougars.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 16, 2020)

What they lack in looks they make up with 'enthusiasm'.


----------



## Zachik

Love this thread... brings me back to high school... or is it middle school?    
My 13 year old son would probably fit right in, on the humor maturity level


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 16, 2020)

It's the CV pandemic stay-at-home effect.  It's this type of banter that keeps one from going totally insane!!  I guess I could just drink.  

But now that's there's an adult in the room...

What's your latest setup and any new favorite tubes, @Zachik ?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> What's your latest setup and any new favorite tubes, @Zachik ?


Haven't played much with my Lyr3 recently, to be honest...  Got newer toys, and less time (work from home left me with LESS time! That just ain't right )


----------



## Zachik

@Ripper2860 - I did not answer the setup part of the question...
The new toy is a custom tube (of course!) amp built by Glenn 
2 x 6J5 (which is equivalent of 1 x 6SN7) or 2 x EL3N - as input tubes.
2 x EL34 / KT66 or 4 x EL3N - as output tubes.
This custom amp also has custom (designed by me) chassis!!  End game amp


----------



## Ripper2860

Ooooooh.  Very nice.  PM me some pics.


----------



## LoryWiv

Ripper2860 said:


> Ooooooh.  Very nice.  PM me some pics.


Or link to pix in the Glenn thread so all may drool and envy!


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Ooooooh.  Very nice.  PM me some pics.





LoryWiv said:


> Or link to pix in the Glenn thread so all may drool and envy!





bcowen said:


> Coolness! One El34 per channel wired in triode? But you know the drill -- pics or it didn't happen.


1 photo - below. Figured I would save myself from several PM requests after I indulge Ripper, and not make people go to other thread... plus I am too lazy to find my post there, while the photo is readily available...  (sorry for taking this thread off topic)


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> And as strange coincidence on the 6J5's just scored these yesterday. Haven't heard the Pinnacles, but some have said they are top of the heap in the world of half-6SN7's. We'll see. Report to follow once they arrive....with pictures.


Will be happy to buy a pair or 2 from you, for my new shiny toy...  
(unless they suck - Ripper would buy the whole lot then!)


----------



## Ripper2860

And here I was just admiring the amp and minding my own business.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> I'm going to have to report you. Nobody _ever_ takes this thread off-topic.


Oh no!  That's going to be my 3rd strike...


----------



## Semper HiFi

I had an unfortunate experience yesterday with my Lyr 3.... was rolling some of my new tubes and at one point after I powered the unit back up, after the starting delay I heard a loud pop from my headphones which were (foolishly) still connected. Sound is still coming from the amp but it is much quieter and thin sounding. I tried another tube with the same results. Same thing with my IEMs, so I know for sure it is the amp and not just the headphones. I've heard a pop many times before, when the amp kicks on after the delay. Sometimes louder and sometimes quieter, and it seemed to vary with tube. I try to remember to have my headphones disconnected when I am turning it on, but this time I forgot. When I was reading the main Lyr 3 thread, I read of a few others experiencing this same startup pop but not everyone seemed to get it.

Is it normal to get a pop on power up? Or was this a sign that there was an issue I should have been more attentive to? Is it possible there was something wrong with the tube that could have caused this? I have tried to buy all of my tubes from trustworthy sellers who have done full tests. From what little I know of tubes, this incident does not seem indicative of a problematic tube. 

I'm really bummed out since I had just purchased the amp and was having a blast rolling tubes with it. Unfortunately I was not the original owner so no warranty for me. I just hope my ZMF Atticus is okay. If they are damaged too then I'm not sure what I will do...


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 18, 2020)

Reach out to Schiit support.  They will likely do the repair for a nominal fee.  At one point it was like a $50 bench fee, IIRC.

Have you checked your headphones in another amp?  Maybe even a phone?

As far as popping after the relay, I've had that happen in occasion and have found that it is tube dependent.  It is something that only happens with a few tubes and certainly not all and it is not a loud pop in my experience

Good luck and keep us updated.


----------



## Semper HiFi (May 17, 2020)

Thanks Ripper.

Upon further thought, I think the headphones are likely the issue. When I plugged my IEMs into the Lyr they sounded horrible but I listened to them with another good source and, well, they just sound like shiit normally. The amp appears to work properly as far as I can tell, but I have no other headphone to test the amp with since I loaned out my only other pair. I don't have another amp that I can test the Atticus with either. If I get a 1/4" Female TRS to 3.5mm Male TRS I could test the Atticus out on my DAP which probably has enough juice to power them. I have a sinking feeling though that the pop blew out the drivers on the Atticus...


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 18, 2020)

Sorry to hear that.  I'll keep  my fingers crossed for you. 

If the amp is fine, it sounds like maybe a bum tube.  Do you have a tube tester to test the tube that was in the amp when it happened?  If you don't and would like me to test it for you, I'll be happy to do so if you want to send it my way.  PM me if that is something you want to do.


----------



## tcellguy

Maybe a problem with the muting relay? I thought that was designed to prevent large voltage (or current) outputs? I read somewhere a blown tube or a short can overload the muting relay though maybe.


----------



## Semper HiFi

Strange thing is I had already ran all of the tubes and the one that it made the pop with (the Westinghouse) was shaping up to be my favorite. I let it burn in for a good while and then spent several more hours listening to it. Killer sounding tube. I was comparing the halo getter with the d-getter when it popped after the muting relay kicked it in. The tube seems to work normally after the incident, but I don't really have any spare gear to do any real testing with and I do not have a tube tester either.


----------



## Rowethren

I had my Lyr 3 blow drives in 2 headphones when the RCD tripped for unrelated reasons. No idea why it happened but it shouldn't have. Schiit ended up replacing the main board under warranty and it hasn't done it since despite numerous RCD trips (use it on my work setup which is in a building site office so the power is a bit iffy). 

I got the drivers in one pair of headphones replaced under warranty but the other pair I had were out of warranty so I was stuck with that one. Luckily ZMF have lifetime warranty on drivers so if that is what is gone contact Zach and I am sure he will sort you out.


----------



## Semper HiFi

I got my other set of headphones back from loan today and was able to borrow an amplifier to test with as well. Turns out that the Lyr 3 is fine but the drivers on the Atticus are blown. The tube I was using when the Lyr 3 went pop I'm pretty sure is bad because it is now very noisy when I plug in my headphones (no source) but I'm afraid to do any more for fear of damaging them. I purchased this tube from a reputable Ebay seller who specializes in tubes, and it was sold with full test data from an Amplitrex AT-1000. The tube was excellently packaged for shipping as well. I had no warning that this was going to happen and the tube sounded great earlier, except for being slightly microphonic.

Now I don't know much about tubes so perhaps someone else could chime in here. Can a tube fail like this without warning? And if it does fail, is there really nothing in the Lyr 3 to keep it from blowing my headphones out? Could the problem have originated with the Lyr 3 and the tube failure be a consequence of that? I really want to know what went wrong here because I would like to be able to trust this amplifier with my headphones again.

As far as the blown headphones, ZMF is going to replace the drivers thanks to the lifetime warranty, even though I am not the original owner. I feel incredibly lucky to own a set of headphones from ZMF, talk about top notch customer service!


----------



## KoshNaranek

Semper HiFi said:


> I got my other set of headphones back from loan today and was able to borrow an amplifier to test with as well. Turns out that the Lyr 3 is fine but the drivers on the Atticus are blown. The tube I was using when the Lyr 3 went pop I'm pretty sure is bad because it is now very noisy when I plug in my headphones (no source) but I'm afraid to do any more for fear of damaging them. I purchased this tube from a reputable Ebay seller who specializes in tubes, and it was sold with full test data from an Amplitrex AT-1000. The tube was excellently packaged for shipping as well. I had no warning that this was going to happen and the tube sounded great earlier, except for being slightly microphonic.
> 
> Now I don't know much about tubes so perhaps someone else could chime in here. Can a tube fail like this without warning? And if it does fail, is there really nothing in the Lyr 3 to keep it from blowing my headphones out? Could the problem have originated with the Lyr 3 and the tube failure be a consequence of that? I really want to know what went wrong here because I would like to be able to trust this amplifier with my headphones again.
> 
> As far as the blown headphones, ZMF is going to replace the drivers thanks to the lifetime warranty, even though I am not the original owner. I feel incredibly lucky to own a set of headphones from ZMF, talk about top notch customer service!


Please take what I say with a large pinch of salt. I don't consider myself to be a tube expert but I think that what happened was that you had an arc between the grid and the plate. This usually happens when someone is using a noval tube in an octal socket and inadvertently runs the plate voltage too high for a noval tube. 

If there was mechanical damage to the grid, a tube that was running in spec could still arc. Grid damage would not be visible because it is enclosed by the plate. 

I would love to hear what the tube experts think.


----------



## reddasher

@Ripper2860 , Is your WH tube have any visible glow? Im testing mine and cant see any.. but tube is hot.. 
My guess if tube is not working I would not hear anything from the amp at all right?


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 19, 2020)

The center metal tip between the copper rods extending slightly from the plates through the top mica should glow slightly.  It is pretty hard to see in bright light.  If the tube was a bad tube you would hear nothing, noise, or an imbalance, I would imagine.


----------



## domes

Gone is my disappointment in a Ken Rad I recently picked up. After several more hours of use, it sounds awesome. Now I wish I had a second as backup.


----------



## animefreeks (May 26, 2020)

Newbie/lurker here so I hope I can learn much. Headphones I'm using are the Sennheiser HD 700's. I just got back from the audio store after being disappointed with the stock JJ 6SN7 that Schiit included. The person there sold me a Tung Sol (USA) CTL-6SN7GT VT-231 black round plates for $200. The Tung-Sol tube tested at 93/98. I wondered why the price is so high, but then I saw that it fell right in line with what everyone else is offering online. Anyone have experience with this particular tube, especially with the Lyr 3?

For me, I immediately noticed that the highs were more forward and much more dynamic than the JJ6SN7. I was able to "feel" the music a lot better with the Tung Sol's. The JJ's were too smooth for me and lacked texture. I've also read mixed comments about whether to burn in tubes or not since I've only had the Lyr 3 for 2 days so far so the JJ's may open up with more use?


----------



## LoryWiv

I just purchased a pair of TS black glass round plate from another head-fi user, and won't disclose the price BUT if yours is from the 1940's or so, in good condition: you got a sweet deal.


----------



## animefreeks (May 26, 2020)

I'm also test driving a Sylvania JAN-CHS 6SN7W as well. Pics for reference. Not sure if the tubes are from the 1940's.

Initial impression of the Sylvania is similar to the JJ 6SN7. The Sylvania's are a tad bit clearer and presented a similar sound signature of recessed highs. I would say it's on the neutral side. I still prefer the TS over the Sylvania, but nonetheless are a fun tube to listen to.


----------



## Ripper2860 (May 26, 2020)

Yep -- 6SN7W are definitely 40's. Top of the tube should have a code that will identify the year (ex: B5).  Mine are all 1945, at least the tall bottle versions.  Not sure about the short bottles, but they are 40's, as well.  Short bottle are supposed to have greater detail while tall have a wider sound-stage and more bass slam.  I concur, but I guess it really depends on the amp.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## KoshNaranek

bcowen said:


> I was rather disappointed with the (new production) JJ 6SN7's.  Rather mediocre to my ears.  The JJ 6922 is a different story though. Doesn't reach the heights of any choice NOS 6922 or 6DJ8, but pretty darn nice for a new production (and sanely priced) tube.


Is this all the review of the JJs that I get?


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> I was rather disappointed with the (new production) JJ 6SN7's.  Rather mediocre to my ears.  The JJ 6922 is a different story though. Doesn't reach the heights of any choice NOS 6922 or 6DJ8, but pretty darn nice for a new production (and sanely priced) tube.



Speaking of new production tubes, what do
you think about the new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB vs the JJ 6SN7?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Robosculpts

so I was listening on my westinghouse tube and everything was fine but all of a sudden i could hear anything that touches the cables and when i touch the amp, i get a hollow sound. the music still sounds great but i get a lot of unwanted noise from the cables. I put in my sylvania chrome dome and everything is actually wonderful. is the westinghouse tube dead?


----------



## Ripper2860

Sounds like the tube is going microphonic.  The slightest vibrations are causing the plates to move causing the howling sound.  It's technically not dead, and should pose no danger as long as it only happens when touched, etc.  If it gets worse where the amp transformer vibration starts causing it to ring constantly, it'll be time to move on.  There are tube dampers out there that are supposed to help, but I've not really had any luck with them.  Others may have more to say about that.


----------



## Robosculpts

yeah i have a tube dampener for it but i still hear all the sounds. oh well. i like the sylvania tube more anyways. that westinghouse d getter was amazing though when it wasnt making sounds


----------



## KoshNaranek

bcowen said:


> I was not enthused with the JJ 6SN7.  I like the Tung Sol better.  For new production tubes I think the TS is a decent contender for the money. The JJ was honestly kind of blah and boring to my ears (and with my amps). May shine elsewhere, but it just didn't score for me.


I tried the JJ 6SN7 in the Saga. I didn't like it all. I can't say it had any redeeming qualities. I didn't give it any break in time though. Perhaps I should have, but now it is given away and I am unwilling to try it again.


----------



## Ripper2860

I ordered a JJ 6SN7 a few months ago and gave it a try.  It was rather 'meh' to me.  Maybe with more time it may have revealed more of itself, but  I have not felt compelled to devote more time to see.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Needs 10,000 hours of burn in to sound it's best.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'll be sure to have my Great Grand Kids report in via a medium and seance once it hits the requisite 10,000 hours.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## wwmhf

ProfFalkin said:


> Needs 10,000 hours of burn in to sound it's best.



I'd better start soon ...


----------



## Zachik

wwmhf said:


> I'd better start soon ...


I started 8 years ago... well before Lyr3 was announced (in preparation for it)!


----------



## jaboki

Is this the Ken-Rad Black Glass people here are getting? https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-KEN-RA...-PLATES-MATCHED-PAIR-QUADS-AVAIL/184277740061


----------



## wwmhf

Zachik said:


> I started 8 years ago... well before Lyr3 was announced (in preparation for it)!



You surely had a plan ahead!


----------



## Ripper2860

I've never been one to plan ahead, so I decided to travel back in time 9,999 hours and start the tube going.  It will be hitting 10,000 hours at 2 PM CT.  

No wait a minute -- I was planning ahead then, but not now?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> Good grief.  Talk about the exaggeration of the millennium.  Mine took only 8721 hours (+/- 17 minutes).  Sheez.
> 
> Good to see you Prof!  How are things?


LOL, doing well, thanks.  How you doing?


----------



## tcellguy

Just received my Psvane UK (after a 6 week wait shipping from Amazon). The only other tube I've heard is the Tung Sol Russian. 

The differences between these two tubes is pretty noticeable. The Tung Sol is warm and soft with a diffuse stage. I like that for some music, but it was not sharp enough in at times and softened bass impact.  

The Psvane UK seems to have more aggressive treble and a lot more bass impact.  I'm also hearing increased treble detail. This is a more fatiguing tube, but a very interesting listen and really wakes the amp up.

It's a nice pairing with Aeon 2 Closed, which leans a bit warm/dark and this combination pushes the mids forward a bit to good effect.


----------



## wwmhf

Thanks for sharing comparisons between these two tubes


----------



## barbz127

Just ordered one of these amps, only tube option was the JJ.

I already own a couple of 1944 rca grey glass and some Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT VT-231s.

I'll be running the amp with my ZMF Atticus, which of the three would be the better ones to start with? I'm open to ordering something else before the amp arrives if that starts me down the right path.

The rca's already have ~200 hours on them and the Sylvania's are NOS.

Thankyou


----------



## Paladin79

barbz127 said:


> Just ordered one of these amps, only tube option was the JJ.
> 
> I already own a couple of 1944 rca grey glass and some Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT VT-231s.
> 
> ...


All are pretty good tubes but my preference would be the RCA grey glass. It scored very high in various blind tube tests I conducted, one of which was with Jason at Schiit and I recall him liking that tube as well.


----------



## animefreeks

Personally, I would not use the stock JJ tube at all and only keep it around as a spare. It's lackluster to my ears; seems like a lazy tube that's doing a poor job with impact, imaging, and soundstage.


----------



## barbz127

Thankyou.

I have a new production Tung sol on way also that was ordered for another project that won't eventuate.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ninadada

malenak said:


> I don`t know if this is my different brain mood mode today, but the PSVane CV181T Mark II sounds amazing right now for me. It absolutely outblows the others. It is like the Lyr3 is totally different amp with thus tube comparing to my others bulbs. Its soundstage is just amazing. I newer knew, my LCD-2C can sounds this open. I am sometimes rotating myself as I was thinking something is happening behind me. No, it cames from headphones. Amazing!


Does the Psvane fit without an adaptor?  Also, what did you pay for yours if you don't mind my asking?  I see some on Ebay and Amazon for around $86.


----------



## tcellguy (Jun 16, 2020)

Ninadada said:


> Does the Psvane fit without an adaptor?  Also, what did you pay for yours if you don't mind my asking?  I see some on Ebay and Amazon for around $86.


I’m using an adaptor but it looks like it might fit without. I think it was $50 on Amazon but took a long time to arrive.

Edit: sorry I got confused. I was talking about the Psvane UK.


----------



## Ripper2860

Psvane UK will just barely fit with the bottom glass almost touching the Lyr 3 case top.  An extender/socket saver is a nice-to-have, not a gotta-have, although Lyr 3 runs cooler by lifting the tube up.


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> Psvane UK will just barely fit with the bottom glass almost touching the Lyr 3 case top.  An extender/socket saver is a nice-to-have, not a gotta-have, although Lyr 3 runs cooler by lifting the tube up.



Correct on all points.


----------



## Ripper2860

If anyone is looking for Frankie's, here's a listing I ran across...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/333626470109


----------



## Bassic Needs

I got my Lyr 3 this week. My first experience with tubes. I immediately swapped out the stock JJ 6SN7 and put in a Tung Sol 6SN7 I bought online. My first impression was - this sounds just like the solid state amp I already had (JDS Atom), just more power.  Pretty clean and tight over the entire FR spectrum. I wasn't hearing any tube magic -nothing remarkable about the sound stage or imaging and no signs of distortion of any kind. 
After about 20 hours of listening and burn-in, today I popped the stock JJ 6SN7 back in gave it a try for the first time. Almost immediately I was gobsmacked by increased sound stage - but in particular elements of the sound had more of forward, out-in-front of me sense of depth. Holographic? The bass might be less tight. Having fun sensing all of this. 
Am I off base on any of this?


----------



## FLTWS

Bassic Needs said:


> ...
> Am I off base on any of this?



No; this is why people still purchase and use tube gear and manufacturers continue to design and produce tube gear. So you can find the sound, in all its variables, you want to listen to and experience some fun in the process by tube-rolling, combined with a commensurate reduction in your bank account.


----------



## Bassic Needs

Cool. Very fun. A little surprised that I enjoyed the stock JJ tube so much vs the Tung Sol since I sort of got the impression people weren't so thrilled with the JJ.


----------



## Bassic Needs

On the right is the Tung Sol I received. The vendor measured the balanced triodes as gm = 85.  I didn't have a reference point. Is 85 good/acceptable?


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## FLTWS

Yep!


----------



## TK16

bcowen said:


> Impossible to know without reference to the tester used or the tube data for that tester.  85 would be a 'beyond dead' tube in my Hickok 752A where 400 is _minimum_ for a good tube.   That doesn't mean 85 is a bad number -- could be a NOS value depending on the tester used.


Think that is a common tactic used by some sellers. In case the buyer might have a tester. Like you said the numbers are meaningless without reference points. I know one well known seller in Illinois that showed NOS level readings on a box with 1 triode tested right on minimum the other well below NOS levels and highly unbalanced and extremely noisy. Think you had a similar experience.


----------



## LoryWiv

FLTWS said:


> No; this is why people still purchase and use tube gear and manufacturers continue to design and produce tube gear. So you can find the sound, in all its variables, you want to listen to and experience some fun in the process by tube-rolling, combined with a commensurate reduction in your bank account.


A very similar conversation is going on in *this thread.*


----------



## Ninadada (Jun 20, 2020)

Bassic Needs said:


> I got my Lyr 3 this week. My first experience with tubes. I immediately swapped out the stock JJ 6SN7 and put in a Tung Sol 6SN7 I bought online. My first impression was - this sounds just like the solid state amp I already had (JDS Atom), just more power.  Pretty clean and tight over the entire FR spectrum. I wasn't hearing any tube magic -nothing remarkable about the sound stage or imaging and no signs of distortion of any kind.
> After about 20 hours of listening and burn-in, today I popped the stock JJ 6SN7 back in gave it a try for the first time. Almost immediately I was gobsmacked by increased sound stage - but in particular elements of the sound had more of forward, out-in-front of me sense of depth. Holographic? The bass might be less tight. Having fun sensing all of this.
> Am I off base on any of this?


I too am a new Lyr 3 owner and new to tubes.  I have the same 2 tubes but my initial impression has been the opposite.  The JJ to me sounds more SS and the Tung Sol sounds more tubey, warm, smooth and surprisingly, without loss of detail or resolution.  Haven't been able to detect any differences in bass yet.  So far my preference is the Tung Sol.  I can see how tube rolling can be addicting.  While expensive, it's still cheaper than "amp" rolling lol.  Enjoy the journey!

Edit: for reference, Lyr 3 is fed by Bifrost 2.  I have a separate Mimby/Jotunheim stack as my SS reference.


----------



## tafens

Ninadada said:


> I too am a new Lyr 3 owner and new to tubes.  I have the same 2 tubes but my initial impression has been the opposite.  The JJ to me sounds more SS and the Tung Sol sounds more tubey, warm, smooth and surprisingly, without loss of detail or resolution.  Haven't been able to detect any differences in bass yet.  So far my preference is the Tung Sol.  I can see how tube rolling can be addicting.  While expensive, it's still cheaper than "amp" rolling lol.  Enjoy the journey!
> 
> Edit: for reference, Lyr 3 is fed by Bifrost 2.  I have a separate Mimby/Jotunheim stack as my SS reference.



This is my experience as well, the Lyr3 with my new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB sounds just wonderful when fed by the Bifrost2. Very euphonic, tubey, high toe-tapping factor. The NOS Tung-Sol I have is very similar, but a little cleaner and leaner sounding. Of those, I prefer the new production one.

The JJ, as you said, I felt was more SS-sounding, in the sense that it wasn’t as strong in the “tubey” traits of the Tung-Sol. I haven’t listened to it for some time but I don’t recall hearing any huge difference in soundstage, but it just wasn’t as exciting a listen as the Tung-Sol.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## TK16

bcowen said:


> Yup.  Pretty sure it was the same seller.


Got a message from a headfier @dfarina looking for tube recommendations for the Lyr 3. Not owning 1 myself I recommended the Lyr 3 tube rolling thread. Can you guys help him out?


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## dfarina

Thanks Buds,I took the plunge on my first tube,hopefully I did ok?Opinions?1Psvane 6SN7-SE Vacuum Tube.


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## dfarina

Crickets...............hopefully it will be an improvement over the stock tube,probably won’t get it for at least a month.


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## Ripper2860

Psvanes are pretty highly regarded.  Not familiar with that particular one, but if it holds true to Psvane DNA, you'll like it.  Also -- you may need a 'socket saver' to lift the tube up since Lyr 3 has a deeply recessed socket and the tubes glass is a bit rotund.


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## Gregg

Well, I got my new Tung Sol to replace the stock JJ tube that came with the Lyr 3, and you guys were right. Big improvement for low money, particularly after little burn-in time.
Thanks all for your advice.


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## Bassic Needs

Ripper2860 said:


> Psvanes are pretty highly regarded.  Not familiar with that particular one, but if it holds true to Psvane DNA, you'll like it.  Also -- you may need a 'socket saver' to lift the tube up since Lyr 3 has a deeply recessed socket and the tubes glass is a bit rotund.


Any link for Lyr 3 socket saver? Tia.


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## Bassic Needs

Gregg said:


> Well, I got my new Tung Sol to replace the stock JJ tube that came with the Lyr 3, and you guys were right. Big improvement for low money, particularly after little burn-in time.
> Thanks all for your advice.


Funny enough I found the reverse to be true for my preferences. But I'm glad you and others enjoy the Tung Sol.
Unfortunately I broke my JJ and now only have the Tung Sol. Good excuse to shop for a new tube!
I welcome suggestions, especially for tubes considered holographic.


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## Ripper2860

Bassic Needs said:


> Any link for Lyr 3 socket saver? Tia.



This is as good as they get.  US made, high quality parts and has anti-vibration properties to minimize microphonics.  It's not a cheapie, but it is highly recommended...

https://www.tubemonger.com/OCTAL_NO...ation_Red_GE_CINCH_p/novib-octal-ge-cinch.htm


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## FLTWS (Jul 2, 2020)

These pics are from years back, I don't know whether they are still available / out of stock / etc.

*I HAVE 2 OF THESE FROM TUBEMONGER*






*I Have  4 of THESE FROM 王龙飞 auakg@suzier.com






I got the first 2 for use with a pair of Psvane 6SN7 – UK. The extenders don’t fit flush to the base of the tubes but tightly enough to pass the signal without issue. I have found it difficult to remove the Psvane’s without the extender coming with it so it will just be an extender and not a saver.

I bought the 4 gold plated ones to see if they will seat better. 

I only need / use them with the Psvane’s which go into the opening straight without a problem but to remove them, the rocking motion I use rubs against the opening in the top of LYR-3. I don’t need them with standard shaped glass but I use them anyway keeps the cabinet cooler.

You can also check "Antique Electronic Supply" I think they carry savers as well. 

If when rolling tubes the saver comes out (or partially out) with the tube that's a good thing. Trying to get just the saver in and out of Schiit's small holes by itself is a trying task. I always attach the saver to the tube before insertion and try and wrangle it out so the socket comes with it or at least remains partially in. Hard too explain but once you try it you'll understand.

Savers are also available for 9 pin tubes like 6DJ8, etc.*


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## Gregg

Bassic Needs said:


> Funny enough I found the reverse to be true for my preferences. But I'm glad you and others enjoy the Tung Sol.
> Unfortunately I broke my JJ and now only have the Tung Sol. Good excuse to shop for a new tube!
> I welcome suggestions, especially for tubes considered holographic.


Well, I could send you my slightly-used JJ, and after you get it you could send me your used Tung Sol. Interested?


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## Bassic Needs

Gregg said:


> Well, I could send you my slightly-used JJ, and after you get it you could send me your used Tung Sol. Interested?


Lol. Kind of you to offer. But for the values involved it doesn't seem worth the trouble to me. That and maybe I got either a really good JJ or bad Tung Sol.
I *do* need to make a respectable new tube purchase however. Gotta get on that...


----------



## Ninadada

Bassic Needs said:


> Lol. Kind of you to offer. But for the values involved it doesn't seem worth the trouble to me. That and maybe I got either a really good JJ or bad Tung Sol.
> I *do* need to make a respectable new tube purchase however. Gotta get on that...


Plus you may find the Tungsol pairs better with your next set of headphones.


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## Gregg

Bassic Needs said:


> Lol. Kind of you to offer. But for the values involved it doesn't seem worth the trouble to me. That and maybe I got either a really good JJ or bad Tung Sol.
> I *do* need to make a respectable new tube purchase however. Gotta get on that...


Well, the very-slightly used JJ is going sit here and just collect dust. So if we can find a way for me to get your address, I'll send it to you for free, expecting nothing in return. I like to see things used and not wasted. And yes, it may be a poor JJ, or it may be that we just like different things.


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## Bassic Needs

Gregg said:


> Well, the very-slightly used JJ is going sit here and just collect dust. So if we can find a way for me to get your address, I'll send it to you for free, expecting nothing in return. I like to see things used and not wasted. And yes, it may be a poor JJ, or it may be that we just like different things.


Gregg. I like your karma. Tell you what, I'll buy it off you for a fair price instead. Check your PM's.


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## Bassic Needs

General question: if the Lyr 3 is on, but idle and not playing music, does that still log hours on the tube's productive life span?


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## Ripper2860 (Jul 9, 2020)

Yes, but you also don't want to power cycle on/off for short listens, either.  My rule is if I'm not going to listen for over an hour, turn it off.  If I'm taking a break and getting back to listening in 1 hours or less, I leave it on.


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## ProfFalkin (Jul 10, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> Yes, but you also don't want to power cycle on/off for short listens, either.  My rule is if I'm not going to listen for over an hour, turn it off.  If I'm taking a break and getting back to listening in 1 hours or less, I leave it on.





You told me I should turn the amp on and off as fast as I could for a full 5 minutes before I listened to it.    I'm on my second replacement power switch now...

Thanks bro


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## Ripper2860

Silly Rabbit -- you were supposed to switch it on and off at the power strip.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Jul 12, 2020)

TL;DR  Let's cut right to the chase ... 



bcowen said:


> As much as it pains me to agree with @Ripper2860 , he's correct of course.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## G0rt

bcowen said:


> Power strip?  _Power strip_?  Quit cussing on this thread.



I once knew a girl...


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> TL;DR  LEt's cut right to the chase ...



LOL!


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> OK, some story about a blind squirrel comes to mind.


A blind squirrel is right twice a day?   Even a broken clock can find nuts?  Something like that.


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> There are several things that "wear" when a tube is used, but it's primarily the cathode coating that wears out first. The longer it's on, and subsequently the more electrons it emits, the faster that coating wears out.



I’m at about 1500 hours on my Tung-Sol and it still sounds great to me, but how much is the sound affected as the coating wears out? Is it like a long slow dwindle in sound quality or more like an abrupt change just before it completely wears out?



bcowen said:


> But heating/cooling cycles wear on a tube too. With time, the repeated heating/cooling causes fatigue in the metal and metal joints (where elements are welded together) which can shorten the life of the tube as well.



I guess this is what makes some tubes go microphonic with age?


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860

Oh yeah!!??   Well at least my kid didn't destroy a Koetsu Black cartridge !!! 

See what you made me do, @bcowen ?  Your constant antagonizing just made me go there... * 

THE GLOVES ARE OFF, BUDDY!!  IT'S NO MORE MR. NICE GUY!!!  *


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860

Geez man.  Get the facts straight, buddy!!!  Never said it was your kid, I just stated that it wasn't mine.  (Maybe if you read more slowly and say the words out-loud...)


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Jul 12, 2020)

Game. Set. Match!!!  


** Looks like a worthy replacement cart., BTW.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> NO MORE MR. NICE GUY!!!


Hmmmm..... never met Mr. nice guy version of @Ripper2860.... I thought it was an urban legend, like big foot and Loch Ness monster!


----------



## Ripper2860

Shhhh.   There never has been.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> The MC-Scheu is actually a very nice cartridge.  Very enjoyable.  But a Koetsu it's not.  Kind of like getting used to a TungSol 5998 and then having to go back to an RCA 6080.  Nothing wrong with the RCA, just not quite in the same league.


Glad I am not diving into the vinyl / turn-table rabbit hole... one bottom-less pit is quite enough for me!


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## G0rt

Zachik said:


> Glad I am not diving into the vinyl / turn-table rabbit hole... one bottom-less pit is quite enough for me!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Jul 13, 2020)

Geez.  I had less crap when I developed my own film in a darkroom.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Jul 13, 2020)

I will neither confirm nor deny.

BTW -- I think you accidentally included a pic of your hydraulic ED pump -- the Wanker 5000.**

**And because inquiring minds want to know -- I know this because Wanker, Inc. always advertised in the back of Hustler -- which I read only for the articles.


----------



## FLTWS

LOL!


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> What?!? Look at all the fun stuff you're missing out on.  Vacuum cleaning machines, an ultrasonic deep cleaning setup (with a 1-micron filtering system, naturally), lots of small and expensive tools....and of course that's all before you even buy the turntable, cartridge, LP's, or spend the few hundred hours reading on how to properly configure cleaning fluids, setup a cartridge properly, etc.  Chicken.


Looking through the photos, I noticed a Digital Ultrasonic Cleaner... Digital Ultrasonic Cleaner. Digital Ultrasonic Cleaner!!! 
Is that even allowed, when dealing with *analog* vinyls?!?!  
...and what's with all the tubing (last photo)???  Are you making moonshine or what?  (and do you have enough to share with all of us? )


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860

Which also means it's Bill's bedtime after a grueling 4 hour pre-listening cleaning ritual that results in M. Manson sounding even worse.   😜


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> Which also means it's Bill's bedtime after a grueling 4 hour pre-listening cleaning ritual that results in M. Manson sounding even worse.   😜


Yeah - sounds like listening sessions require planning ahead and allocating A LOT of time for pre-listening chores. 
I guess only advantage is tubes in the amps are all warmed up and ready to go by then!


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ripper2860 said:


> Which also means it's Bill's bedtime after a grueling 4 hour pre-listening cleaning ritual that results in M. Manson sounding even worse.   😜


He listens to M. Manson through full tube equipment. Talk about a statistical outlier!

One has to wonder about what other psychological abnormalities he displays.


----------



## ProfFalkin

bcowen said:


> I'm anal.  Once ultrasonically cleaned



...

When quotes go bad.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## Ripper2860 (Jul 15, 2020)

bcowen said:


> I don't even have any Manson LP's.  So another wishful theory shot all to hell.  Sorry.



Not that you would admit it.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that if true, there's hope for you yet!!


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## raf1919

Hi All, took a break from this hobby and back after 2yr lay off.  Have lyr3 on way and stopping by BrentJesse next week to pickup 3 tubes.
6SN7GTB RCA 
6SN7GTB CBS 
6SN7GT TungSol early grey "T"

eager to test out... used to own vali2 and darkvoice but been awhile so curious to see how this new setup will sound.

have 6xx and schiit modius coming as well to pair with it.


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## Ripper2860

Welcome back!!


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## Zachik

raf1919 said:


> Hi All, took a break from this hobby and back after 2yr lay off.  Have lyr3 on way and stopping by BrentJesse next week to pickup 3 tubes.
> 6SN7GTB RCA
> 6SN7GTB CBS
> 6SN7GT TungSol early grey "T"
> ...


Next step would be to update your profile picture, or risk the wrath of some sticklers here on the thread...


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## raf1919

Zachik said:


> Next step would be to update your profile picture, or risk the wrath of some sticklers here on the thread...



haha i'll photoshop one of the tubes out.


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## Zachik

I will defer to the committee (@bcowen and @Ripper2860) to review your suggestion...


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## raf1919

bcowen said:


> Shhhhh......I posted some over on the 'other' Lyr tube rollers thread even though I didn't have a Lyr 2.  Either everyone was nice about it, or nobody noticed (that I posted).  Probably the latter.
> 
> Now if @raf1919 (welcome back, BTW) posts an avatar with a GE tube, the gloves come off.



Actually specifically asked Brent to not offer GE  going to his shop Tue to pick up I'll update my avatar then


----------



## cddc

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  I use the Tenderfeet under my big-box Cary DAC to very good effect.
> 
> And speaking of socket savers/lifters, I pulled one of the 6SN7 pieces I got from Suzier apart last night. I was shocked...pleasantly. Solid copper terminals with a direct gold plating for the pin contacts in a full ceramic base. No circuit board with paper-thin socket contacts as many have.  For $11.50 with free shipping?  Damn.  There *is* good stuff available from China.
> 
> ...




How the top part with ceramic base is attached to the bottom pins? 

You mentioned no Printed Circuit Board is used, so just curious to know how the top part and bottom part are connected, thru wires or the pins from the top part are plugged directly into the pipes from the bottom part and their gaps are filled with solder? If it's the latter case, once you separate the top and bottom, you'll possibly have no way to put them back together... o_O


----------



## cddc

A question to follow up is how did you manage to take apart the top and bottom halves? It's almost a mission impossible to me...


----------



## Gregg

Any suggestions out there for a good place to buy a great tube for my Lyr 3?


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## cddc

Cool! I bought the same saver a couple of years ago, it worked great. I couldn't see any PCB inside it, so I thought some pins/wires from the top half must have been directly plugged into the bottom lugs and soldered there. You've proved my guess

Great work to take them apart!


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## cddc

Gregg said:


> Any suggestions out there for a good place to buy a great tube for my Lyr 3?




Lots of tube vendors mentioned in the thread, as well as fleabay. Go thru a few pages and you'll find them.


----------



## AccruedSolitude

Hey guys I was thinking of tube rolling on my Lyr 3 and mainly looking for something that's warm with great bass. Anyone got recs?


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## AccruedSolitude

bcowen said:


> Lots of recs in this thread.


yeah I just ordered the PSVane 6SN7-SE thanks anyways!


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## Mumbles06

I blew a PSVane this morning.  I was using my LYR 3 to power my AudioEngine A5+ while watching the Formula 1 race this morning.  There was a loud bang, and a flash inside the tube, then everything went silent.  I figured I blew the tube, so I switched off the amp to allow it to cool, then pulled the tube and dropped in the stock tube which I had in my desk drawer.  Now the amp won't even switch on.  I already reached out to Schiit for the official answer, but has anyone else ever had something like this happen with their LYR?


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## FLTWS (Aug 9, 2020)

Mumbles06 said:


> I blew a PSVane this morning.  I was using my LYR 3 to power my AudioEngine A5+ while watching the Formula 1 race this morning.  There was a loud bang, and a flash inside the tube, then everything went silent.  I figured I blew the tube, so I switched off the amp to allow it to cool, then pulled the tube and dropped in the stock tube which I had in my desk drawer.  Now the amp won't even switch on.  I already reached out to Schiit for the official answer, but has anyone else ever had something like this happen with their LYR?



I'd suspect LYR3, I've had no issues with Psvane 6SN7 types and I own them all; UK Black Plate, TII, Westinghouse Replica (a Shuguang WE6SN7 Plus Black Plate Curvy"), and the Treasure Globe. I've used them all at some point in both my LYR3 and a custom built class A OTL without issue.

I've never had a problem with my LYR3 but some others have reported some problems, a search of this thread should uncover those posts.

If the tube is bad it may have caused the fuse inside the LYR3 to go and maybe that's why it won't turn on with the stock tube. (I expect there is a fuse of some sort inside the LYR3)

Please update us on any resolution to your problem.


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## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Mumbles06

FLTWS said:


> I'd suspect LYR3, I've had no issues with Psvane 6SN7 types and I own them all; UK Black Plate, TII, Westinghouse Replica (a Shuguang WE6SN7 Plus Black Plate Curvy"), and the Treasure Globe. I've used them all at some point in both my LYR3 and a custom built class A OTL without issue.
> 
> I've never had a problem with my LYR3 but some others have reported some problems, a search of this thread should uncover those posts.
> 
> ...



The tube is about a year old, and it's been running great.  I'm thinking that based on the large flash inside it with the accompanied bang, the tube is toast.  But maybe not.  Everything was just humming along nicely, then, BANG.  Very odd.  Moderate volume, I wasn't pushing anything hard.  The only thing I can think is that I just moved into a new house 2 weeks ago, and maybe it's something with the power in the house, but it's new construction, and everything else on the power strip (CPU, power speakers, monitor, printer) kept humming along nicely.  Odd.  I'm sure Schiit will take care of me, but as an engineer with an inquisitive mind, I just wonder if there's anything I could have done anything to prevent it.


----------



## Ripper2860

Was there any smoke emitted from Lyr 3?


----------



## KoshNaranek

I am not a tube expert but reading is my Superpower. It sound like the tube had an arc. As I understand it, this can happen when the plate voltage is too high on the amp or if the physical clearance between the grid and plate is too small on the tube. This is a manufacturing error or can happen when the tube is exposed to too much acceleration/shock. Red base tubes were specifically designed to handle more shock inside an Army Artillery gun.

Since I doubt the Lyr plate voltage is specified anything but conservatively, I suspect that the tube took out the amp. 

The amp will need to be repaired and the tube is good for nothing orher than autopsy.


----------



## Mumbles06

No smoke, just a loud bang, then done.  

Kosh, I suspect you are correct.  I really think the amp is made to higher tolerances than the tube, so if anything, it was probably the tube.  I could drop the tube into the Saga and see if it still works, but that seems like a bad idea.  So I'm throwing the tube into quarantine, and I will probably send it into Schiit when the amp goes back (I'm assuming it will) to let them look at it.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


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## FLTWS (Aug 9, 2020)

By the way, the SE is the Treasure Globe right? The one that looks like a round light bulb?

I remember when drugstores had tube testers in them (along with soda fountains), I was a kid. In the 70's when I started building Dynakits some Radio Shacks in my area still had them for cutomers to use.


----------



## Mumbles06

That's the one that blew this morning.  It sounded great and I thought it was a very pretty tube.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Mumbles06 said:


> That's the one that blew this morning.  It sounded great and I thought it was a very pretty tube.


I know that you must feel poorly, but keep in mind that it is all small stuff. Nobody died, just an amp. 

Here is something that may make you feel better.


----------



## cddc

Mumbles06 said:


> No smoke, just a loud bang, then done.
> 
> Kosh, I suspect you are correct.  I really think the amp is made to higher tolerances than the tube, so if anything, it was probably the tube.  I could drop the tube into the Saga and see if it still works, but that seems like a bad idea.  So I'm throwing the tube into quarantine, and I will probably send it into Schiit when the amp goes back (I'm assuming it will) to let them look at it.




Sounds like tube arcing to me. What it does is that it creates a short in your amp. Best case scenario - your amp has a fuse to protect itself, and the fuse reacted quickly so that it opened right after the arcing and your amp was saved. Worst case scenario - the short created by the arcing damaged some component in your amp, and you have to send the amp back for repair.

Check if there is a fuse in your amp and see if it's open first.


----------



## Ripper2860

There is an internal fuse near the AC power switch.  To check, one needs to remove the case.  This can be done by removing the volume knob and then the hex nut for the volume control shaft.  The case will then slide forward with some effort.  Or you could just send it in for service.


----------



## cddc

If the fuse is open, just replace it with a new one and you are good to go. Just do not use that arcing tube again in your amp or anywhere else.


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## Ripper2860 (Aug 9, 2020)

When I had an issue with my  Lyr 3 (magic smoke was released), I e-mailed Schiit support and asked what type of protection against a bad tube taking Lyr 3 out was present in the amp. The response was they had nothing to prevent a catastrophic tube failure from taking out the amp.  The only 'protection' was a fuse for AC power surges and the HP output muting relay.  Now maybe the tech that answered my e-mail was not fully up to speed, but it's the response I got.

Since your amp did not smoke and the bright flash was in the tube, it may very well be that fuse -- easy enough to check. 

BTW -- They replaced left channel resistors and servo.  This was some time ago and I've had zero issues since.


----------



## cddc

It all depends, when something like arcing happens. 

If you're lucky your amp can be saved by the fuse, if the fuse reacts quickly enough. But if it happens too quickly and the fuse has no time to respond, then something in the circuit will get toasted.


----------



## Mumbles06

KoshNaranek said:


> I know that you must feel poorly, but keep in mind that it is all small stuff. Nobody died, just an amp.
> 
> Here is something that may make you feel better.


Thanks man!  Yeah, not a huge deal right now.  Just another to a list of small frustrations.  I just moved into this house last week, and there are all sorts of little to medium problems and expenses that come with moving.  This is just one more.  It'll get fixed, and I know Schiit will take care of me, so all is well.


----------



## nasty nate

Hi All,

I recently got the Lyr 3 and while I love the sound of the stock JJ tube - I'd like to see what other tubes sound like. I wanted to confirm with the resident experts that where I'm shopping for replacements is a wise choice.

Can I choose any of the following tubes and have them work in the Lyr 3 without adapters? (See image) (Taken from the site: TubeDepot.com) 

I know the Tung Sol comes highly recommended - any thing else worth trying when starting out in tube rolling? 








Lastly, when I select a tube, what options should I be focusing on for best performance / reliability? ? Do I need high gain, low noise, etc? 









Any other tips when selecting would be greatly useful. Thank you in advance 🤔


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 18, 2020)

Any of those listed will work w/o an adapter.  Lyr 3 uses 6SN7 / 6H8C (Russian 6SN7) family tubes natively.  As far as gain goes, all new production and 'NOS' (measuring within in spec)  6SN7/6H8C tubes have the same gain specification.  Barring effects of wear or a bad tube, all 6SN7 family tubes will have the same level of gain or amplification.  Balanced triodes (balanced within 10% of each section) is desired.  IMHO, unless the tube is woefully out of spec, 6SN7s should be low noise and low microphonics by default.  I would only pay extra for low noise / microphonics if I was using it in a phono preamp, etc. I have never paid extra for low noise / microphonics, but have for balanced triodes.

Of the list you provide, I would focus on the last 2 rows. Start out with the Raytheon and compare with your stock tube.  While the other tubes on the last 2 rows are certainly worthy of consideration, the price does seem a bit steep.  There is value in buying from a reputable dealer, but you'll need to affix that value for yourself.

BTW -- If your amp came with a JJ tube, you may consider the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB 'new production' in row 2.

Hope this helps.


----------



## ProfFalkin

Ripper2860 said:


> Start out with the Raytheon and compare with your stock tube.


I concur.   As was also stated, the new prod TungSol doesn't suck.


Ripper2860 said:


> the price does seem a bit steep.


The price for that RCA is highway robbery.   Crazy IMO.

If you want a cheap one that is good and a little more on the mellow end, Schiit used to ship these as stock.


----------



## FLTWS

Ripper2860 said:


> Any of those listed will work w/o an adapter.  Lyr 3 uses 6SN7 / 6H8C (Russian 6SN7) family tubes natively.  As far as gain goes, all new production and 'NOS' (measuring within in spec)  6SN7/6H8C tubes have the same gain specification.  Barring effects of wear or a bad tube, all 6SN7 family tubes will have the same level of gain or amplification.  Balanced triodes (balanced within 10% of each section) is desired.  IMHO, unless the tube is woefully out of spec, 6SN7s should be low noise and low microphonics by default.  I would only pay extra for low noise / microphonics if I was using it in a phono preamp, etc. I have never paid extra for low noise / microphonics, but have for balanced triodes.
> 
> Of the list you provide, I would focus on the last 2 rows. Start out with the Raytheon and compare with your stock tube.  While the other tubes on the last 2 rows are certainly worthy of consideration, the price does seem a bit steep.  There is value in buying forma reputable dealer, but you'll need to affix that value for your self.
> 
> ...



I personally preferred the Tungsol to JJ.


----------



## QuantumKat

My stock Russian 6SN7 also did the same thing. Was going fine then I saw a flash and it popped. I bought an Electro Harmonix 6SN7EH but it's barely working. I have to turn the knob all the way up to hear anything.

Maybe the prior tube wrecked my Lyr? It's not supposed to do that when it dies is it? The flash and pop I mean.


----------



## Ripper2860

ProfFalkin said:


> I concur.   As was also stated, the new prod TungSol doesn't suck.
> 
> The price for that RCA is highway robbery.   Crazy IMO.
> 
> If you want a cheap one that is good and a little more on the mellow end, Schiit used to ship these as stock.



Yeah.  I was trying to be nice.  The TS and Raytheon seemed like the most reasonably priced (still a bit high).  The others were either not worth trying over stock tube or just way too high, IMHO.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 18, 2020)

QuantumKat said:


> My stock Russian 6SN7 also did the same thing. Was going fine then I saw a flash and it popped. I bought an Electro Harmonix 6SN7EH but it's barely working. I have to turn the knob all the way up to hear anything.
> 
> Maybe the prior tube wrecked my Lyr? It's not supposed to do that when it dies is it? The flash and pop I mean.



When you stated previously that it 'broke' I thought it might have rolled off the desk and shattered.  I had no idea that it blew and may have taken out your amp.  At this point, I'm suspecting the amp may have suffered as a result of a catastrophic tube failure.  Given the new info., the likelihood your EH is a bum tube is low.  Only trying another tube will tell, but it's looking more like the amp.  If it is the amp, Schiit will take good care of you!!


----------



## kman1211 (Sep 18, 2020)

nasty nate said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I recently got the Lyr 3 and while I love the sound of the stock JJ tube - I'd like to see what other tubes sound like. I wanted to confirm with the resident experts that where I'm shopping for replacements is a wise choice.
> 
> ...



I got the coin-base one, the one I got was an RCA and it sounds notably better than the Russian stock tube, the newer tung-sol, and the JJ tube. What I gather basically any of the NOS US tubes such as RCA’s, Sylvania’s, etc. are excellent.


----------



## Ripper2860

kman1211 said:


> I got the coin-base one, the one I got was an RCA and it sounds notably better than the Russian stock tube, the newer tung-sol, and the JJ tube.



Very nice.  I hesitated recommending that one because the seller does not state a MFG -- just a construction type.  I'm a fan of RCA tubes -- especially 40's gray glass 6SN7GTs.


----------



## Mumbles06

QuantumKat said:


> My stock Russian 6SN7 also did the same thing. Was going fine then I saw a flash and it popped. I bought an Electro Harmonix 6SN7EH but it's barely working. I have to turn the knob all the way up to hear anything.
> 
> Maybe the prior tube wrecked my Lyr? It's not supposed to do that when it dies is it? The flash and pop I mean.



Hey man,

Mine did the "flash/bang" thing in my really nice tube, followed by a dead amp (no LED, no power, nothing).  I sent it back to Schiit and they had to put a whole new printed circuit board in it.  But now it sounds as good as ever.  I'm running the Tungsol now, and it sounds great.  I'd suggest getting on the horn with the warranty people at schiit.


----------



## kman1211 (Sep 18, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> Very nice.  I hesitated recommending that one because the seller does not state a MFG -- just a construction type.  I'm a fan of RCA tubes -- especially 40's gray glass 6SN7GTs.



It’s going to be RCA, GE, or Sylvania with those as it says in the description it would be one of those. The one I have has black plates.


----------



## QuantumKat

Thanks for your help everyone. I'll be talking to Schiit today!


----------



## BlakeT (Sep 18, 2020)

Just in case this info is helpful to anyone, I had a tube that was exhibiting some noise in the right channel.  I had just learned of Brent Jessee's solution of taking the tube and putting it on its side, and then firmly tapping the tube on a table.  Then taking a wooden pencil and do some further tapping on the tube holding it right side up.  Apparently many times tube noise is the result of flakes of cathode material that has come loose and lodged in the grid of the tube.

This immediately solved the problem.

Perhaps everyone already knows this and I am just late to the party. 

Separately, has anyone tried using Herbies Tube Dampers on a microphonic tube and if so, did it solve the problem?


----------



## Ripper2860

kman1211 said:


> It’s going to be RCA, GE, or Sylvania with those as it says in the description it would be one of those. The one I have has black plates.



I'm good with RCA and Sylvania.  Not so much with GE.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm good with RCA and Sylvania.  Not so much with GE.


For 6SN7  tubes, I think even GE is an improvement over new production.


Please don't hit me


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 18, 2020)

👊😡

If Psvane did not exist, you would likely be correct.


----------



## markkr

I'm new to this tube world and have a newly acquired Lyr3 (and Valhalla2)

I purchased 2 tubes from "Upscale Audio". One is a TungSol and the other is their expensive "Zalytron". I've run each tube for one week and compared. Despite my reluctance to spend $200 on the Zalytron, it sounds SO much smoother and spacious than the TungSol. The bass is deeper and everything sounds buttery smooth.

I don't possess the audiophile language to describe differences, and I'm not trying to justify my purchase here... I'm just stating that it was worth it to me.

I also ordered a Psvane "Treasure Globe" and "CV181" to compare and in doing so I have now spent more on tubes than the actual amplifier... so I'm cutting myself off on any further Lyr3 tubes.


----------



## Ripper2860

markkr said:


> I also ordered a Psvane "Treasure Globe" and "CV181" to compare and in doing so I have now spent more on tubes than the actual amplifier... so I'm cutting myself off on any further Lyr3 tubes.



Riiiiiight.  As if none of us have ever said that multiple times.


----------



## QuantumKat

In terms of headphone amps, what's the next step up from Lyr 3? Just curious. Especially after, upon even further investigation it seems mine is busted 🤣

If I have one of these https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...eface-ufx-usb-3.0-thunderbolt-audio-interface

Am I getting a major boost in listening versus going Headphone Amp, DAC, and Tube? What do you all think?


----------



## FLTWS

KoshNaranek said:


> For 6SN7  tubes, I think even GE is an improvement over new production.
> 
> 
> Please don't hit me


LOL!


----------



## Progrocker111 (Sep 18, 2020)

Just bought the nearly unused february 1945 made Sylvania 6SN7W JAN version, tall bottle with plastic base.

This is really by far the best tube i have tried so far with Lyr 3. Really enormous big soundstage, excellent fat but precise punchy bass, holographic placement of instruments and clear and sparkle highs. Better dynamics and bigger lush tone than my former 54 Sylvania GTA chrome dome. Absolutely blows off modern tubes like JJ or new Tungsols. Really try these if you can find them.


----------



## Odin412

Ripper2860 said:


> If Psvane did not exist, you would likely be correct.



Yes, I rather like the new-production Psvane tubes. I'm using their grey 6SN7 (it's called something else, but it's a 6SN7) in my Saga and their 274B in my Woo Audio WA6 and I enjoy them both.


----------



## Ripper2860

Progrocker111 said:


> Just bought the nearly unused february 1945 made Sylvania 6SN7W JAN version, tall bottle with plastic base.
> 
> This is really by far the best tube i have tried so far with Lyr 3. Really enormous big soundstage, excellent fat but precise punchy bass, holographic placement of instruments and clear and sparkle highs. Better dynamics and bigger lush tone than my former 54 Sylvania GTA chrome dome. Absolutely blows off modern tubes like JJ or new Tungsols. Really try these if you can find them.



Black base / tall bottle W is one of my favs!


----------



## FLTWS

I believe I've got the whole fleet of Psvane 6SN7 types and I'm very happy with all. The grey glass is the TII / CV181 replica I think. The Treasure Globe - is my favorite. Of course I have several dozen other 6SN7's mostly NOS, a few from the 40's and 50's, and they look it. The problem with NOS is knowing how "New" they actually are. Since they don't come with a Hobbs meter there is no way to tell how many hours of play they might have on them. Accurate measurements are helpful but materials age with time and storage variables. The one on the far right is a Sophia Electric. Dam this addiction!


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ripper2860 said:


> 👊😡
> 
> If Psvane did not exist, you would likely be correct.


At Psvane prices, they don’t exist to me


----------



## Odin412

FLTWS said:


> I believe I've got the whole fleet of Psvane 6SN7 types and I'm very happy with all. The grey glass is the TII / CV181 replica I think. The Treasure Globe - is my favorite. Of course I have several dozen other 6SN7's mostly NOS, a few from the 40's and 50's, and they look it. The problem with NOS is knowing how "New" they actually are. Since they don't come with a Hobbs meter there is no way to tell how many hours of play they might have on them. Accurate measurements are helpful but materials age with time and storage variables. The one on the far right is a Sophia Electric. Dam this addiction!



I like the blue one - it looks very cool. What's the one on the left? I haven't seen that one before.


----------



## FLTWS

A limited edition Shuguang WE6SN7+ "black plate curvy". It's a replica of a WE421A but it's a 6SN7 in use. Not sure it's on their web pages anymore. No way of knowing if there might be a 2nd limited addition or not, LOL. With the exception of the Sophia Electric (which comes from Virginia), the rest are all provided by Grant Fidelity in Alberta Canada who has expertise in Chinese manufactured tubes. I've had very good dealings with GF.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## BlakeT

FLTWS said:


> A limited edition Shuguang WE6SN7+ "black plate curvy". It's a replica of a WE421A but it's a 6SN7 in use. Not sure it's on their web pages anymore. No way of knowing if there might be a 2nd limited addition or not, LOL. With the exception of the Sophia Electric (which comes from Virginia), the rest are all provided by Grant Fidelity in Alberta Canada who has expertise in Chinese manufactured tubes. I've had very good dealings with GF.



What are your thoughts on how the Sophia compares to your other tubes?


----------



## FLTWS

BlakeT said:


> What are your thoughts on how the Sophia compares to your other tubes?



The Blue Sophia; Prodigious Bass, soft highs, never aggressive. Might help tame some brightness elsewhere in the chain or the source recording. Nice mid distance perspective. I only bought 1 of the Sophia and 1 of the Treasure Globe (wish I had just gone with matched pairs like all my others). I have 2 sets of matched pairs of the Black Plate 6SN7-UK's and they really are superb and the lowest cost of the other Psvanes from Grant Fidelity. I have a matched pair of the TII's and just loaded them into my two Incvbvs's (Incvbi ?) for my listening the next several days. Just my opinion but those curvy replica one's are behind all the others in overall noise and give a close-in perspective. I may  at some point get a matched pair of the Treasure Globes as they are super nice. Buying matched pairs seems a better deal price-wise and then you get; "(the lowest noise + dual section matching, GF Select, pair)". I have a matched pair of new Tungsol's and JJ 6SN7's. I have a pair of what I believe are true NewOS 63' Melz 1578's and another new pair "in the mail" as they say. Very nice in the driver position of the Incvbvs.


----------



## tafens

FLTWS said:


> I personally preferred the Tungsol to JJ.



As do I. It’s too bad that Schiit stopped offering it as a stock upgrade.

When I bought the Lyr3 I got the stock Russian 6H8C tube and the Tung-Sol as an extra. First listen was with the 6H8C and it wasn’t bad (especially for the price). Curiously switching to the Tung-Sol I found it being definitely better to my ears. Later when they switched to JJ I also got it to try it out, and while it too definitely is a good tube, it didn’t manage to beat the Tung-Sol in my book. There is less of a difference between JJ and TS than vs the 6H8C, and it may feel subtle at first, but then the richer and more “musical” sound of the TS wins IMHO.

Not having tried the more expensive new production tubes out there, I think I’ll risk going out on a limb and say that the Tung-Sol probably is the best value for money new production tube out there.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 19, 2020)

bcowen said:


> Unfortunately with current international shipping delays (at least in the US), the term "wait for it" applies in multiples with the Fotons



If you order now your great grandchildren may receive them by the time they start getting into audio.  😏


Disregard.  @bcowen has likely already bought them.  

Ever notice that he never posts links - only pictures of tubes for sale?  😒


----------



## bcowen (Sep 21, 2020)

.


----------



## QuantumKat

I wish my Lyr worked... Wanna try that Sophia


----------



## FLTWS (Sep 21, 2020)

QuantumKat said:


> I wish my Lyr worked... Wanna try that Sophia



I don't believe I've ever read anyone else's comment on them at Head-Fi. First time I read of the company name was, I believe, in connection with a Woo amp. And it works fine in my LYR3.


----------



## nasty nate

*Quick Update - *I think for now I'll be going with the following:

1. (x2) Tung-Sols (these come recommended by many users, so I figured I'd get one plus a backup   )
2.  Sylvania 6SN7GT
3. RCA VT231Smoked Glass

Am I missing anything? What do you think of my choices?


----------



## FLTWS

Nice, but you'll need to report back what you think of them after several weeks of play.


----------



## nasty nate

Will do - if you don't mind me asking, what is everyone's procedure for swapping out tubes in one night of listening? 

Warm amp up --> listen --> amp off (cool down) --> take tube out --> place different tube --> amp back on? 

Are there timing caveats I should be aware of? Like not turning the amp on/off too many times in one day, etc? I also heard I need to wipe these tubes after touching them, is that because of the oil on my hands reacting with the glass? Maybe there's another reason I can't think of


----------



## FLTWS (Sep 24, 2020)

When the tubes reaches room temperature I change them out. Doesn't take most tubes long to cool down.

" I also heard I need to wipe these tubes after touching them, is that because of the oil on my hands reacting with the glass?" I don't think so but I use a cheap exam glove wrapped around the tube so there is no slipping, it provides very good grip, and won't damage any printing on the glass, if you care about such things.


----------



## Zachik

FLTWS said:


> I use a cheap exam glove wrapped around the tube


@Ripper2860 - I know this is very tempting, but behave!


----------



## LoryWiv

FLTWS said:


> When the tubes reaches room temperature I change them out. Doesn't take most tubes long to cool down.
> 
> " I also heard I need to wipe these tubes after touching them, is that because of the oil on my hands reacting with the glass?" I don't think so but I use a cheap exam glove wrapped around the tube so there is no slipping, it provides very good grip, and won't damage any printing on the glass, if you care about such things.


I use a lint free flannel cloth to handle the glass.


----------



## tafens

nasty nate said:


> Will do - if you don't mind me asking, what is everyone's procedure for swapping out tubes in one night of listening?
> 
> Warm amp up --> listen --> amp off (cool down) --> take tube out --> place different tube --> amp back on?
> 
> Are there timing caveats I should be aware of? Like not turning the amp on/off too many times in one day, etc? I also heard I need to wipe these tubes after touching them, is that because of the oil on my hands reacting with the glass? Maybe there's another reason I can't think of



I turn amp off, let tube cool down to touchable temperature, change tube, turn amp on, let tube warm up for a few minutes, listen.

I’ve heard that fingerprints is supposed to be bad for tubes too but I don’t think so. It’s a tube with ordinary glass, not a halogen light bulb. Perhaps if one doesn’t want to deface it with fingerprints or accidentally scratch the print, but otherwise no problem.


----------



## cgb3

tafens said:


> I’ve heard that fingerprints is supposed to be bad for tubes too but I don’t think so. It’s a tube with ordinary glass, not a halogen light bulb. Perhaps if one doesn’t want to deface it with fingerprints or accidentally scratch the print, but otherwise no problem.



Fingerprints can leave oil. Oil could cause the underlying glass to heat differently than the surrounding glass, potentially causing a stress fracture of the glass as it expands/contracts with heat.

I'm new to tubes, so I have no first hand knowledge of fingerprint induced tube failures. As you observe, no fingerprints on halogen bulbs is a concern. I personally saw a few of the pencil type bulbs crack that I blame on fingerprints.

It seems to me that keeping the tube clean of fingerprints is a simple enough exercise, if for no other reason than esthetics. I will draw the line at wearing a mask and gown while handling.


----------



## Zachik

cgb3 said:


> Fingerprints can leave oil. Oil could cause the underlying glass to heat differently than the surrounding glass, potentially causing a stress fracture of the glass as it expands/contracts with heat.


Good theory, but I have not heard of anyone reporting about a tube whose glass just cracked when heating up or cooling down!

Unlike some of the old farts experts here - I have been dealing with tubes for relatively short amount of time (3-4 years). Still, I would not worry about it.


----------



## JohnBal

I've been using tubes pretty steadily for the last 15 years. Bare hands are fine as long as they are clean. Even if you've had your hands all over your face, which can be naturally oily, best to wash them first. But I've not had a problem with clean hands on tubes.


----------



## cgb3 (Sep 27, 2020)

Tung Sol 6SN7GTB, (new stock)

Almost like a weather front, the sound changes. Everything euphonic, detailed and lush.

I didn't notate the listening sessions. Several nights, I left the source playing (while I went to bed). My guess: ~75+ hours.

I'm very taken with this tube, but I have more money available: There must be better available! (Hope you can appreciate a joke)


----------



## tafens

cgb3 said:


> Tung Sol 6SN7GTB, (new stock)
> 
> Almost like a weather front, the sound changes. Everything euphonic, detailed and lush.
> 
> ...



There’s _always_ another tube for just a few dollars more  I believe the 33S30 is about as high as you get though, especially in matched pairs 

I agree on the TS, great new production tube


----------



## FLTWS

I recently (2 weeks ago) purchased a match pair of these for giggles and schiit's from TubeDepot. Running them currently in 2 similar amps (sitting side by side) as driver tubes with vintage RCA 6AS7's as power tubes in both amps. They are surprisingly good sounding to my ears for new production tubes. Apparently I got some of the last of their current inventory but more on the way they say. These 6SN7's are new production and won't break the bank account. They have a non-gold pin version as well at half the price but I always opt for gold plated pins if available.


----------



## Progrocker111 (Sep 29, 2020)

Another big surprise, the final winner after another tests is Soviet 1979 Melz 1578 military version.

This tube is even by a margin better than 1945 Sylvania 6SN7W tall bottle. Has biggest and deepest soundstage from all 6SN7 tubes i tried in my Lyr 3, very defined and balanced with amazing dynamics. The sound is very detailed and very transparent, but still warm and textured. And the bass and drums have amazing slam and presence (clearly the best i have so far heard on Lyr 3), great for heavier rock music too. I am still very surprised how amazing this tube sounds.


----------



## FLTWS

Yep, the Melz are a top shelf performer. Sourcing good ones could be difficult? I have six and all measure extremely strong by someone I trust and who is not a seller.


----------



## FLTWS

As a follow up to my post above about the Electro-Harmonix; I compared 2 Tung-Sols (6SN7GTB) I have with what I think are date codes of 17 09 and 19 02 with my two Electro-Harmonix (6SN7EH) with date codes of 18 09 on both. With the exception of the EH's gold plated pins and printing identifiers, all 4 tubes look identical to me. Every particular part of the cage assembly is identical and all have the same round getter at the top. The color of the 4 plastic bases is the same. Both are made in Russia.

Checking the Electro-Harmonix website   https://www.ehx.com/vacuum-tubes  they list both EH and Tungsol brands. Maybe all the same?


----------



## Ripper2860

I suspected they were both New Sensor tubes.

From the Art of Sound site:
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?44432-State-of-the-Vacuum-Tube-Industry-2016

*New Sensor Corporation*
http://newsensor.com/default.aspx
*Brand(s):* Electro-Harmonix, Genalex, Mullard, Sovtek, Svetlana, Tung-Sol
*OEM:* SED, NEVZ-Soyuz, Vaco, Voshod
http://www.en.nevz.ru/
http://sedspb.ru/eng/
http://www.vaco.ryazan.ru/
http://www.voshod-krlz.ru/
US based New Sensor Corporation distributes (from the USA) vacuum tubes made in Russia. It still manufactures its own vacuum tubes out of the CJSC Expo-PUL factory (formerly part of Reflektor) in Saratov, Russia. In 1992, New Sensor & Expo-PUL began distributing Sovtek brand vacuum tubes and amplifiers (originally many products were rebrands, but by 2012 all Sovtek products are made in-house at Exo-PUL), and shortly after launched tubes under the Electro-Harmonix. In 2000 New Sensor became the sole shareholder of CJSC Expo-PUL, and in 2001 acquired the Svetlana brand rights in USA & Canada. The Svetlana line of tubes is now distribute consumer tubes made by other former Russian plants (such as SED, Vaco & Voshod (maybe NEVZ), all of which no longer perform direct-to-customer sales). Over the 2000s, they have acquired the brand rights for the Genalex, Mullard, and Tung-Sol brands (and possibly the Svetlana brand worldwide after 2012) which attempt to replicate the sound of these famous former tube makers. New Sensor (especially their Electro-Harmonix brand) is primarily focused on instrument effects & amplification, but still maintain a catalog of products for hifi, notably producing modern versions of classic Soviet era tubes. Their latest product is the KT150, the most powerful ever tube in the octal beam power/pentode family that can be used for both audio and instrument amplification. The Russian “sound” has many fans and New Sensor supplies OEM tubes to many amp manufacturers. New Sensor has an extremely wide range of tubes, but many tubes of the same designation are found in different brands; generally New Sensor publically publishes a lot (but not all) of their vacuum tube data which is easily available through their website; New Sensor have the most tubes are creatively issued Western designations and may have slightly different spec or other operational difference from the reference spec.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ripper2860 said:


> I suspected they were both New Sensor tubes.
> 
> From the Art of Sound site:
> https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?44432-State-of-the-Vacuum-Tube-Industry-2016
> ...


They are all made in the same factory by New Sensor. I cannot tell the difference between Tung-Sol and EH Gold in my Saga. Their tone is good but imaging and sense of space is disappointing.


----------



## FLTWS (Sep 29, 2020)

I agree on the sound.


----------



## cddc

Ripper2860 said:


> I suspected they were both New Sensor tubes.
> 
> From the Art of Sound site:
> https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?44432-State-of-the-Vacuum-Tube-Industry-2016
> ...




Good source!

As far as I know the new production Mullard, Tung Sol, Genalex tubes are all just Russian EH tubes (with a fancier western label), so will definitely sound no different to the original EH tubes, which cost much less...LOL

One cannot link their sound to the original Mullard, Tung Sol, and Genalex tubes, coz they are totally different. The new production tubes and the NOS tubes were built with completely different materials / designs / toolings, albeit bearing the same label.


----------



## scottshields

Can those with experience here comment on what I perceive to be experiencing with a new Lyr3.  I have this tube and am using a bifrost2 as a source listening with Meze Empyreans which are also less than a moth old.  I've heard lots of stories about gear break in periods but the only one's I've really given any merit to are those regarding tubes.  The tube has ~25hrs on it and the Amp slightly more overall.  I typically turn all my gear on as I start my work day.  I seem to hear a very noticeable improvement in overall sound but especially soundstage in the afternoon hours after everything's been on for a while (a few hours).  That seems to long to be normal gear warm up right?  Is what I feel I'm experiencing the changing sounds of Tube burn in?


----------



## cddc

scottshields said:


> Can those with experience here comment on what I perceive to be experiencing with a new Lyr3.  I have this tube and am using a bifrost2 as a source listening with Meze Empyreans which are also less than a moth old.  I've heard lots of stories about gear break in periods but the only one's I've really given any merit to are those regarding tubes.  The tube has ~25hrs on it and the Amp slightly more overall.  I typically turn all my gear on as I start my work day.  I seem to hear a very noticeable improvement in overall sound but especially soundstage in the afternoon hours after everything's been on for a while (a few hours).  That seems to long to be normal gear warm up right?  Is what I feel I'm experiencing the changing sounds of Tube burn in?




New tubes normally need 20+ hours to burn in. There might be some gas residuals remain in the tube from production or long time storage. When a tube is heating up, the getter inside it will slowly absorb the gas. Also, the coating on the cathodes and plates will gradually get activated thru use and reach their optimal operating conditions. Tubes are not like the solid state, which probably needs no or less time to burn in.

So I guess the changes you are hearing are normal, also I will say not all tubes have obvious changes after 20+ hours burn in.


----------



## nasty nate (Sep 30, 2020)

FLTWS said:


> I believe I've got the whole fleet of Psvane 6SN7 types and I'm very happy with all. The grey glass is the TII / CV181 replica I think. The Treasure Globe - is my favorite. Of course I have several dozen other 6SN7's mostly NOS, a few from the 40's and 50's, and they look it. The problem with NOS is knowing how "New" they actually are. Since they don't come with a Hobbs meter there is no way to tell how many hours of play they might have on them. Accurate measurements are helpful but materials age with time and storage variables. The one on the far right is a Sophia Electric. Dam this addiction!



Would you mind sharing more of your impressions of the Sophia Electric / Psvane tubes, especially compared to the new production Tung Sol / JJ tubes?

As a beginner in this tube rolling madness - I'm trying to decide which direction to head first

Thank you in advance


----------



## FLTWS (Jun 7, 2021)

nasty nate said:


> Would you mind sharing more of your impressions of the Sophia Electric / Psvane tubes, especially compared to the new production Tung Sol / JJ tubes?
> 
> As a beginner in this tube rolling madness - I'm trying to decide which direction to head first
> 
> Thank you in advance



If we are talking new production tubes; I just prefer the Psvanes: clean, quiet, dynamic, well balanced top to bottom for my classical music (and some Jazz) listening. I'm trying to get way from blow by blow descriptions, they are tedious work and may not be meaningful for everyone as no 2 people hear alike, use identical equipment, or have the same preferences in music. I'm trying to spend more time listening and less time analyzing what I hear. I am attuned to the sound of acoustic instruments as they sound in the concert hall. If that sounds right to me with any piece of gear, not just tubes, on recordings I trust to give me a proper hearing, I'm satisfied. I don't listen to Rock, or other genre's (or something like EDM at all) with the same kind of focus. When it comes to electronically (as in the instrument needs an AC plug to make sound) produced music I have no point of reference when it comes to what sounds right or what sounds satisfying.

One can only glean so much information from reading impressions and reviews, as the old saying goes "you can't tell how salty the soup is until you taste it". Sooner or later you've got to spend some money and experience things for yourself.

Here's what I suggest for new productions tubes:

1. If you have a LYR3 that came with a JJ then I'd buy 1 new Tung-Sol 6SN7 or Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 ($20.00 to $40:00 at Tube Depot depending on which of 3 different ones you want - the Tung-Sol and EH Gold Pin sound the same to me)

2. Then try a Psvane 6SN7 - UK Black Plate,  Grant Fidelity's price was $120 for a single standard or $200.00 for a matched pair (the top 10% in measured performance I believe) last time I checked and they do carry a warranty, 30 to 90 days can't remember which.

3. Then try a Sophia Electric Blue Glass 6SN7- they offer 3 grades running from

*Grade A (top 10%) * : $179.99 per tube with 30 days warranty, $30 extra for one year warranty.
*Grade B (top 30%) * : $149.99 per tube with 30 days warranty, $30 extra for one year warranty.
*Grade C * : $99.99 per tube with 30 days warranty
I hear the Psvane as having crisper highs versus soft highs for the Sophia, bass very similar for both - but then the end sound is about everything in your chain, including the transducer, and how it all combines to provide a sound profile.

If you don't hear significant or meaningful differences at any point don't feel you have continue to buy and roll.

If you want to play the *NOS* game, and as I've said before, knowing how *New* that *N*ew *O*ld *S*tock tube is can be a crap shoot, then I suggest trying...(and no adapter needed with any of the following and no telling what the price will be.)

1. A 1963 Melz 1578
2. A 1953 Foton 6N8S
3. A KEN-RAD 6SN7GT-VT 231
4. A Westinghouse6SN7GTB "D" getter (very hard to find, "Halo" getter's seem to be more readily available)

All these tubes are good performers (depending on measurements) and will be very old. And #1 and #2 in particular are known to have issues with the soldier in the tube pins (which can be re-done)

I also have soft spot for the sound of vintage RCA's; I have a 56' 6SN7GTB (short clear bottle) and a 52' 6SN7GT (gray glass) that I particularly like. I have a couple 40's RCA's but they are definitely NOT NOS and I would not suggest chasing down these 80 year old tubes.

At some point in near future vintage tubes will consist of only *O*ld *U*sed *S*tock so it makes a lot of sense to focus on tubes you will be able to get readily in *NNS* condition.

Peace!

*New Note 6/7/21: *My source (Grant Fidelity) for Psvane has replaced the line with Linlai brand. See their website for the reason for the change over

https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/for-...ntire-psvane-line-as-of-8pm-mst-feb-7th-2021/

I've been using Linlai E-6SN7's from Grant Fidelity in my LYR3 and custom built Incvbvs amps for several weeks now and they are exceptionally good.

https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/


----------



## nasty nate

FLTWS said:


> If we are talking new production tubes; I just prefer the Psvanes: clean, quiet, dynamic, well balanced top to bottom for my classical music (and some Jazz) listening. I'm trying to get way from blow by blow descriptions, they are tedious work and may not be meaningful for everyone as no 2 people hear alike, use identical equipment, or have the same preferences in music. I'm trying to spend more time listening and less time analyzing what I hear. I am attuned to the sound acoustic instruments as they sound in the concert hall. If that sounds right to me with any piece of gear, not just tubes, on recordings I trust to give me a proper hearing, I'm satisfied. I don't listen to Rock, or other genre's (or something like EDM at all) with the same kind of focus. When it comes to electronically (as in the instrument needs an AC plug to make sound) produced music I have no point of reference when it comes to what sounds right or what sounds satisfying.
> 
> One can only glean so much information from reading impressions and reviews, as the old saying goes "you can't tell how salty the soup is until you taste it". Sooner or later you've got to spend some money and experience things for yourself.
> 
> ...



--

Wow thank you for the comprehensive writeup - I'll be reading this a few times over. 

1. My Tung-Sols just arrived - the amp is cooling down for the swap as we speak. 

2. Will do - I've heard great things about these tubes, and they're easy on the eyes too   

As for your other points - I guess I should find all the NOS tubes I like the sound profile of and hoard them, shame that new production is not what it was in the 40s and 50s...

When buying tubes off of sites like this one: https://www.vivatubes.com - I see that they offer test results from their in-house testing, how do I read / interpret these?

Ex) Test Results: 103/97 & 103/96 (for a matched pair of Sylvania US 6SN7GT Black - 3 Rivet T Bad Boys) 


   Something like this also "tests as NOS" and has related NOS test values and life calculations. 

--

One more follow up question if you don't mind - do each of the Psvanes / Sophia tubes fit within the Lyr 3 without extension out of the chassis? 

I appreciate the help - any of your wisdom is greatly helpful


----------



## FLTWS

Your questions on test related matters would be best answered by some of the other posters here who understand the issues and do their own tube testing and have the technical know how. I rely on the expertise of others. My simple rule of thumb; does it sound okay?


----------



## FLTWS

The Psvane's and Sophia's will fit, however, in the process of removing a tube it is often effective to use a slight, gentle rocking or rolling action to start the tube. The coke bottle shapes may scrape their glass on the rim of the chassis hole and if the hole and socket are offset by too much it could be even more difficult. Just get a tube lifter (actually buy 2-they are cheap and you'll always have one in reserve) to get the tube clear of the chassis top and it becomes a non-event. Makes rolling quicker and easier, and it will get better air circulation so should run cooler which means longer life expectancy and the chassis will be cooler to the touch.

I bought my lifters/savers for LYR3 shortly after it was released, the attached word doc shows the lifters I bought at that time, may still be available, maybe not.


----------



## nasty nate

Appreciate all the help! Happy listening


----------



## cddc (Oct 26, 2020)

nasty nate said:


> --
> 
> Wow thank you for the comprehensive writeup - I'll be reading this a few times over.
> 
> ...




A true 100% NOS 6SN7 should read 104 / 104 from their testers. So dividing their readings by 104 will get you the % quality, for example (103, 97) / 104 = (99%, 93%) for the 2 sections inside 6SN7.


----------



## bce22

Welp, I made it through 290 pages in 3 days.  I don't know whether to thank all of you or curse you! 

I ended up purchasing the following based on this lovely (dreadful?) thread:

1. WH 6SN7GTB D Getter
2. Brimar 6SN7 GT Black Glass
3. Melz 1578
4. Sylvania 6SN7GT three rivet bad boy (tall)
5. 2x 1958 Foton 6SN7

Thanks for everything!

Cheers,

Brad


----------



## havagr8da

I have had a Foton 53 in my Lyr 3 since January and it is pretty well broken in. What a fantastic tube. I know this is tube rolling but - wow! It is gonna be hard for me to roll this tube out. Maybe January next year, I don’t know. I listen to a lot of 90s Alternative (grunge), classic rock, metal, jazz, blues, 70s soft rock, progressive rock, and a little country. For the last week or so I have been using ATH R70x headphones - I roll headphones much more than tubes - a little more expensive but just as fun. The ATH R70x never had a better friend than the Lyr 3 with that great tube.


----------



## bce22

Anyone use a ZMF Atticus with the Lyr 3?  If so what tubes do they find synergize well with them?


----------



## nasty nate

Treasure Globe just arrived  - I'll post my impressions compared to the Tung Sol and the JJ soon...


----------



## markkr

nasty nate said:


> Treasure Globe just arrived  - I'll post my impressions compared to the Tung Sol and the JJ soon...



mine has been stuck in customs in San Fran for over 3 weeks <sigh>


----------



## nasty nate

Oh no  I hope it arrives soon - worth the wait, this tube is far from burned in and it already sounds better than the TS / JJ imo


----------



## markkr

Look what arrived today!!!


----------



## Odin412

markkr said:


> Look what arrived today!!!



Very nice! Enjoy and lets us know your thoughts about the tubes.


----------



## nasty nate

markkr said:


> Look what arrived today!!!



Can't wait to hear your impressions! 

So far the globe sounds much better than my Tung Sol / JJ tubes - is there a consensus on how long these new tubes take to burn in? I know asking for consensus around here is always difficult


----------



## markkr

nasty nate said:


> Can't wait to hear your impressions!
> 
> So far the globe sounds much better than my Tung Sol / JJ tubes - is there a consensus on how long these new tubes take to burn in? I know asking for consensus around here is always difficult



I’m 72hrs into burn in on the globe, I’m 12hrs into the bottle. I can’t  tell a difference between the two so far. To be fair, I was SUPER happy with my previous tube (CBS Hytron 5692/6SN7). I didnt spend much time with TungSol since I wasn't impressed. The Psvane tubes are very detailed, also very solid state sounding IMO, I really want to reach the 300hr mark before making any judgements.


----------



## Zachik

markkr said:


> I’m 12hrs into the bottle


OMG - from one (tube rolling) addiction to another one...


----------



## hmss007

FLTWS said:


> The Psvane's and Sophia's will fit, however, in the process of removing a tube it is often effective to use a slight, gentle rocking or rolling action to start the tube. The coke bottle shapes may scrape their glass on the rim of the chassis hole and if the hole and socket are offset by too much it could be even more difficult. Just get a tube lifter (actually buy 2-they are cheap and you'll always have one in reserve) to get the tube clear of the chassis top and it becomes a non-event. Makes rolling quicker and easier, and it will get better air circulation so should run cooler which means longer life expectancy and the chassis will be cooler to the touch.
> 
> I bought my lifters/savers for LYR3 shortly after it was released, the attached word doc shows the lifters I bought at that time, may still be available, maybe not.



@FLTWS Thanks for posting your document for socket savers. I'm looking to purchase a Psvane and/or Sophia for my Lyr 3 that is on the way. Do you have any recommendations for which socket saver ended up working the best for you? I'd like to order a couple but not before knowing what your thoughts are.


----------



## FLTWS

I have several types and they all work fine. 

https://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Tube-Socket-Saver-Octal/dp/B005IYPLH0

I have some fancier ones with gold plated pins and pin holders that came from China but that was way before the covid pandemic started and I have no idea what is available from other sources like ebay and etsy presently. Just make sure you get an 8 pin octal socket saver and not (replacement) sockets or socket adapters.


----------



## hmss007

Thanks for the recommendation - I'll give it a shot.


----------



## hmss007

nasty nate said:


> Treasure Globe just arrived  - I'll post my impressions compared to the Tung Sol and the JJ soon...



@nasty nate - As I'm new to this tube rolling hobby (and the money pit that accompanies it), can you provide me your recommendation on where to purchase the "Treasure Globe" in your picture?


----------



## FLTWS

I've purchased all my various Psvane's (10 so far) from Grant Fidelity ou tof Alberta Canada area:

https://psvanetube.com/wordpress/

And read thru their "ABOUT" page

https://psvanetube.com/wordpress/psvane_tubes_about_us/

I've seen them advertised elsewhere for less but not sure if they go thru the same testing and matching GF does and I'm confident I'm getting a new tube with 90 day warranty. 
Also, I'm not much of a bargain shopper..


----------



## JoeDoe

Hey there L3 owners! Happy to join the club as of this week and quite enjoying how the Schiit is treating my PS1000s! Have just begun to read up on the tube-rolling side of things, but I do have a question for the panel. Any others using a Lyr 3/Bifrost stack? This is obviously quite trivial, but to me it's very obvious that the 'grain' of the casing is much more coarse on the Lyr where it seems much finer/smoother on the Bifrost. Anyone else have a similar look to their units?


----------



## havagr8da

JoeDoe said:


> Hey there L3 owners! Happy to join the club as of this week and quite enjoying how the Schiit is treating my PS1000s! Have just begun to read up on the tube-rolling side of things, but I do have a question for the panel. Any others using a Lyr 3/Bifrost stack? This is obviously quite trivial, but to me it's very obvious that the 'grain' of the casing is much more coarse on the Lyr where it seems much finer/smoother on the Bifrost. Anyone else have a similar look to their units?



I have a Jot and Saga+ with the same mismatch.


----------



## hmss007

I have a Lyr 3 + Modius on the way, will report back when they arrive...


----------



## havagr8da

hmss007 said:


> I have a Lyr 3 + Modius on the way, will report back when they arrive...



Congrats! And welcome to the club.


----------



## scottshields

FLTWS said:


> I have several types and they all work fine.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Tube-Socket-Saver-Octal/dp/B005IYPLH0
> 
> I have some fancier ones with gold plated pins and pin holders that came from China but that was way before the covid pandemic started and I have no idea what is available from other sources like ebay and etsy presently. Just make sure you get an 8 pin octal socket saver and not (replacement) sockets or socket adapters.


Another option:  I have this one and it works great:  https://www.tubemonger.com/OCTAL_NO...ation_Red_GE_OMRON_p/novib-octal ge-omron.htm


----------



## scottshields

FLTWS said:


> I have several types and they all work fine.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Tube-Socket-Saver-Octal/dp/B005IYPLH0
> 
> I have some fancier ones with gold plated pins and pin holders that came from China but that was way before the covid pandemic started and I have no idea what is available from other sources like ebay and etsy presently. Just make sure you get an 8 pin octal socket saver and not (replacement) sockets or socket adapters.


Another options if interest from a local other than China: https://www.tubemonger.com/OCTAL_NO...ation_Red_GE_OMRON_p/novib-octal ge-omron.htm


----------



## jjflemin

Hey all, I'm having an issue with my Lyr 3. Was in the middle of listening tonight and suddenly heard a pop followed by dead silence. Powered down the unit, unplugged it and let it cool then tried switching tubes without any change. Then I noticed there was no click after turning it on like there normally is when the relay connects to the output. Any ideas from experienced troubleshooters here? Worried I may be out of luck as I am the 2nd owner of the amp and warranty service is specified for original purchaser only.


----------



## Rowethren

jjflemin said:


> Hey all, I'm having an issue with my Lyr 3. Was in the middle of listening tonight and suddenly heard a pop followed by dead silence. Powered down the unit, unplugged it and let it cool then tried switching tubes without any change. Then I noticed there was no click after turning it on like there normally is when the relay connects to the output. Any ideas from experienced troubleshooters here? Worried I may be out of luck as I am the 2nd owner of the amp and warranty service is specified for original purchaser only.



Sounds a bit like the fuse might have gone. I would recommend contacting Schiit and telling them what happened. Even though you are the second owner I am sure they will try and help you out as best they can.


----------



## FLTWS

scottshields said:


> Another options if interest from a local other than China: https://www.tubemonger.com/OCTAL_NOVIB_Socket_Saver_Vibration_Red_GE_OMRON_p/novib-octal ge-omron.htm



Yep, I've got some of those, they are fine. These are also fine and my favorites, purchased 4 of them probably over a year ago, not sure if they are still in business or available.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Oct 17, 2020)

jjflemin said:


> Hey all, I'm having an issue with my Lyr 3. Was in the middle of listening tonight and suddenly heard a pop followed by dead silence. Powered down the unit, unplugged it and let it cool then tried switching tubes without any change. Then I noticed there was no click after turning it on like there normally is when the relay connects to the output. Any ideas from experienced troubleshooters here? Worried I may be out of luck as I am the 2nd owner of the amp and warranty service is specified for original purchaser only.



Does the power light still glow when switch is in the On position?  If so, likely not a fuse.  If it does not, could very well be the fuse.

If you need to send it in, Schiit will still take care of you. IIRC, there's just a nominal bench fee for non-warranty units ($50?).  Sometimes they'll even throw in the parts if they are not expensive.


----------



## jjflemin

Rowethren said:


> Sounds a bit like the fuse might have gone. I would recommend contacting Schiit and telling them what happened. Even though you are the second owner I am sure they will try and help you out as best they can.



Will definitely be reaching out to them, thanks!



Ripper2860 said:


> Does the power light still glow when switch is in the On position?  If so, likely not a fuse.  If it does not, could very well be the fuse.
> 
> If you need to send it in, Schiit will still take care of you. IIRC, there's just a nominal bench fee for non-warranty units ($50?) correctly.  Sometimes they'll even throw I. The parts if they are not expensive.



Ah, yes the power light does come on. Everything seems normal, just no click and no output. And $50 isn't terrible!


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm glad you were able to decipher my post.  (I hate typing on a phone.)


----------



## hmss007

My stack arrived today, as promised here is a picture. The Modius does have a bit of a different polish than the Lyr 3.


----------



## cgb3

You're listening to my exact stack (assuming you replaced your JJ tube with a new manuafacture Tung Sol). I'd love to hear your impressions.


----------



## hmss007 (Oct 18, 2020)

cgb3 said:


> You're listening to my exact stack (assuming you replaced your JJ tube with a new manuafacture Tung Sol). I'd love to hear your impressions.


I’m in the process of burning in right now. Planning on giving a good listen tomorrow night. Should then have about 50 hours. And, yes replaced the JJ with Tung Sol.


----------



## hmss007

If I was going to make my Lyr 3 just look super awesome with a tube that had a great glow, what options do I have?

The Tung Sol I have sounds good but doesn’t give off a glow beyond to two small dots on the top.

Yes I want great sound, but sometimes I just want it to look really cool and glow in the dark.


----------



## cddc

hmss007 said:


> If I was going to make my Lyr 3 just look super awesome with a tube that had a great glow, what options do I have?
> 
> The Tung Sol I have sounds good but doesn’t give off a glow beyond to two small dots on the top.
> 
> Yes I want great sound, but sometimes I just want it to look really cool and glow in the dark.




Add some LEDs beneath your tube socket...LOL


----------



## dilupus

hmss007 said:


> My stack arrived today



What a coincidence! The Lyr 3 I ordered to power the Elex you sold me should arrive some time this week. 

@nasty nate @markkr Might be early for impressions still, but where does that globe seem to excell? Is it noticeably bright or dark? I ordered the bottle, but now I'm wondering if I might want to give this a shot as well.


----------



## hmss007

That's awesome - I'm driving my Dan Clark Aeon 2 Closed, Focal Elegia Closed, Sennheiser HD600, and JH Audio JH11Pro CIEMs. I will be primarily using the Aeon 2 and Elegias as I need to use closed back to ensure I don't inflict my music on the rest of the household.


----------



## markkr (Oct 20, 2020)

dilupus said:


> What a coincidence! The Lyr 3 I ordered to power the Elex you sold me should arrive some time this week.
> 
> @nasty nate @markkr Might be early for impressions still, but where does that globe seem to excell? Is it noticeably bright or dark? I ordered the bottle, but now I'm wondering if I might want to give this a shot as well.



The bottle is very bright and highly articulate, the globe is more natural sounding and smooth (tube like). Obviously it really depends on what headphone is being used for audition. I like the bottle with any of my Senns, I can’t tolerate the bottle with the Symphones or Clears, its just way too much for me.

The Globe sounds great with everything, if I could only have one it would be the globe.


----------



## dilupus

Thanks. I might have to get one of those, then.


----------



## havagr8da (Oct 21, 2020)

Lyr 3 tube rolling thread seems to be the default Lyr3 place to post about this great amp. A great amp it is too. I have had so much fun with this one piece of HiFi gear it has returned it’s cost in more ways than expected. The Lyr 3 is my favorite piece of gear I own. The Loki, as a companion to the Lyr 3 has been a joy as well. Maybe that particular headphone isn’t a perfect match. With Loki now it is.

All this brings me to something I have been longing for. A final link to the chain. Sort of ironic being as it is, for many maybe the first link, others maybe not so much. The DAC - well not just the DAC but a real tube DAC. Ever since owning a Lyr 3 I have been looking. Yes they are out there, but none really looked justifiably affordable enough to use exclusively in a headphone rig. You know, something I can park by my comfy chair hooked up to my Lyr 3 and be a happy camper with my headphone collection.

If you haven’t guessed by now I have found it. Most unlikely to me but to my surprise that which has scratched that itch. On sale at the time for $669 The Black Ice Glass FX Tube DAC_DSD WIFI. What got me to pull the trigger? Tubes! 12ax7 (no op-amps) Enough for me at the price to give it a try. Honestly I researched the tubes more than the DAC. Hey, tube rolling right. I have to say my second best purchase ever, given Lyr 3 is considered first. The combo and some HD660s PERFECT!!! Just unbelievable. Absolute synergy and 2 parts of the whole greatly improved with the inclusion of the Tube DAC.

What else is there to say - dynamic range, soundstage, analogue ambiance, truth, purity. This Schiit scratched my itch.


----------



## quimbo

FLTWS said:


> I recently (2 weeks ago) purchased a match pair of these for giggles and schiit's from TubeDepot. Running them currently in 2 similar amps (sitting side by side) as driver tubes with vintage RCA 6AS7's as power tubes in both amps. They are surprisingly good sounding to my ears for new production tubes. Apparently I got some of the last of their current inventory but more on the way they say. These 6SN7's are new production and won't break the bank account. They have a non-gold pin version as well at half the price but I always opt for gold plated pins if available.





FLTWS said:


> I recently (2 weeks ago) purchased a match pair of these for giggles and schiit's from TubeDepot. Running them currently in 2 similar amps (sitting side by side) as driver tubes with vintage RCA 6AS7's as power tubes in both amps. They are surprisingly good sounding to my ears for new production tubes. Apparently I got some of the last of their current inventory but more on the way they say. These 6SN7's are new production and won't break the bank account. They have a non-gold pin version as well at half the price but I always opt for gold plated pins if available.


Got one of these gold pins today, sounds really nice one hour in, thanks for the info


----------



## scottshields

I splurged on the CBS Hytron 5692 and got it installed today.  It replaced a PSvane Treasure Globe.  I was very skeptical of NOS Tubes (which I assume the CBS is?) but after listening today I'm starting to believe.  The difference was immediately noticeable.

My question for the experts here is does anyone have experience with the CBS vs. the Ken Rad's that are so popular on this thread?  Or any direct experience with the CBS vs. other NOS tubes?  I don't see a lot of info on the CBS and what I do find is mixed.  Thanks for sharing any experience you may have.


----------



## dilupus (Oct 30, 2020)

I just got in my order of PSVane tubes today. A pair of 6SN7-UK bottles and a 6SN7SE Treasure Globe. It's getting late, so I'm not going to get to listen as much today as I would have liked. Haven't even tried this paired with my turntable yet, which is a big part of what I was buying this for. I've only gone through 3 songs, back and forth on different tubes and another solid state amp to compare. Started with my HD 6XX, because that's what I always start with, then moved onto my Focal Elex. I plan on trying it with a couple more pairs tomorrow, as well as using it as a preamp on powered speakers. There will probably be a lot of swapping back and forth all weekend.

Between the two, so far I think the UK bottles have better treble. The Globe is slightly warmer, and I'm pretty sure it's giving more of a V-shaped sound, though that could just be bias after a couple hours' testing. Both are super clear. Instinct says the bottle is clearer, but I've noticed more micro details using the Globe. The Globe is definitely wider, but louder songs that hug one side of the spectrum hide a bit of that width when compared to the Bottle.

So far, I'm preferring the Globe, but I need to try these with some other genres. I feel like there may be a few I would rather listen to through the Bottle.

EDIT: referred to the bottle on accident when I meant Globe in one sentence. 



scottshields said:


> I splurged on the CBS Hytron 5692 and got it installed today.  It replaced a PSvane Treasure Globe.  I was very skeptical of NOS Tubes (which I assume the CBS is?) but after listening today I'm starting to believe.  The difference was immediately noticeable.



What differences are you noticing? Because my Treasure Globe is flooring me right now.


----------



## scottshields

dilupus said:


> I just got in my order of PSVane tubes today. A pair of 6SN7-UK bottles and a 6SN7SE Treasure Globe. It's getting late, so I'm not going to get to listen as much today as I would have liked. Haven't even tried this paired with my turntable yet, which is a big part of what I was buying this for. I've only gone through 3 songs, back and forth on different tubes and another solid state amp to compare. Started with my HD 6XX, because that's what I always start with, then moved onto my Focal Elex. I plan on trying it with a couple more pairs tomorrow, as well as using it as a preamp on powered speakers. There will probably be a lot of swapping back and forth all weekend.
> 
> Between the two, so far I think the UK bottles have better treble. The Globe is slightly warmer, and I'm pretty sure it's giving more of a V-shaped sound, though that could just be bias after a couple hours' testing. Both are super clear. Instinct says the bottle is clearer, but I've noticed more micro details using the Globe. The Globe is definitely wider, but louder songs that hug one side of the spectrum hide a bit of that width when compared to the Bottle.
> 
> ...


I'll have to do some back and forth compare that I've not done yet, but my initial listening has three things popping out:  Details, Imaging and bass.  Bass seems just a bit more detailed and less muddy.  Detail and imaging I noticed right away.

That said some other info to take into account is that I have Meze Empyreans and I often think that I've been trained by the critical reviews of them around detail to listen really hard for that.  It was the first thing i noticed on the new tube and could be a bit confirmation bias .  I also have a Woo Audio WA11 dac/amp that I use to drive the Empyreans.  I thought it sounded more detailed than the Globe, but after swapping the tube the Lyr3 + CBS tube sounds better to me now.  It should as it's sourced from a much better dac in the bifrost2.  Hope that helps.

When I get some more time I'll do some closer comparisons and follow up.


----------



## hmss007

I ordered a Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z based on some feedback here, I’ll be curious if I’ll be able to tell the difference between it and my current Tung-Sol GTB.


----------



## cgb3 (Nov 1, 2020)

hmss007 said:


> I ordered a Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z based on some feedback here, I’ll be curious if I’ll be able to tell the difference between it and my current Tung-Sol GTB.


I've almost pulled the cord on the Psvane CV181-T Mark II numerous times (it is a pretty tube). $70-$175 for a tube that takes a month to reach me from a country I'm not very happy with at this time.

What stopped me? The new manufacture Russian Tung Sol s6sn7gtb I've been listening to for the past several months. Female jazz vocalists, old time rock and roll, hard-bop jazz. It all sounds fantastic. $25 for as many as I can consume. Nice.

Why chase, when you're happy with the sound?

Love the Lyr3


----------



## hmss007

I've gone back and forth on this and my curiosity got the best of me, so now I'll wait the month for the tube to arrive. In the meantime, I'll enjoy my Tung-Sol GTB and hopefully my ears will hear the differences between them.


----------



## Tralfaz

I have a Lyr 3 incoming to replace a Saga that I've been using to drive desktop speakers.  I already have a nice selection of 6SN7s to choose from and plan on starting with a clear-top RCA that's worked well in the Saga.

Does anyone have experience with both the Saga and Lyr 3?  If so, what differences and similarities might I expect to hear?

I also have some Raytheons, GEs, and a new Tung Sol to swap in if I get the urge.


----------



## nasty nate

Hi All,

I had a general _tube-noob_ question. I was wondering what makes a tube like the Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE more expensive than something like a New Production Tung-Sol? 

Is it simply R&D / limited availability / parts' cost? What makes expensive tubes "expensive"? 

After switching from the stock tube in the Lyr 3 to the Tung Sol and finally to the Globe - I noticed differences in all three and the globe to my ears was the best at everything. Does this have to do with tube materials? Or is there a design principle in the globe that other cheaper tubes do not share _because _of cost? 

Thank you in advance - I love learning from the more experienced tube rollers in here


----------



## Tralfaz

The Lyr 3 has landed!  It came with the JJ tube but I popped in the RCA clear top I'd been using in the Saga to minimize the variables.

Very early first impressions are that the Lyr is a little less transparent than the Saga and doesn't quite have the impact and drive (rhythm & pacing) of the Saga with the RCA clear top.  It's way to early to make any real judgements since things need to warm up and settle in.  I may try a new Tung Sol or an old GE or Raytheon later, just to see what happens.

My current system:
2017 iMac
Schiit Bifrost Multibit Gen 5
Schiit Loki M equalizer/tone control
Schiit Lyr 3
Fluid Audio FX80 coaxial studio monitors
Focal Elear/Grado GH-1/Massdrop Sennheiser HD6XX headphones


----------



## Acapella48 (Nov 5, 2020)

nasty nate said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I had a general _tube-noob_ question. I was wondering what makes a tube like the Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE more expensive than something like a New Production Tung-Sol?
> 
> ...



All the above - plus manufacturing costs.  Consider that vacuum tube manufacturing is completely absent in the U.S.  Since 1964 the famous tube manufacturing factories like Mullard, Telefunken, RCA, Western Electric or Philips either closed or stopped production of most if not all vacuum tubes.   Western Electric in Rossville, Georgia still makes a few, primarily the 300B.  Tube manufacturing has become a boutique operation serving a niche market.  It survives mainly in Russia, Eastern Europe and China. Stock of NOS tubes is dwindling because of demand which in turn drives up the cost for those tubes still available.

The consumer is essentially competing with audio manufacturers who buy in bulk quantities when available or switch to current production tubes when NOS stock dries up.

IMHO, makes no sense to pay premium prices for tubes, especially when the expenditure of the tube(s) exceeds the price of the component the tube(s) are being installed in.

You could liken a vacuum tube to a light bulb: Some are good; some are bad.  Or like bright stars in the universe - some burn hot and slow and live long while others burn thru their fuel quickly and supernova.  You pays your monies and takes your chances -- YMMV.


----------



## cgb3 (Nov 5, 2020)

Tralfaz said:


> The Lyr 3 has landed!  It came with the JJ tube but I popped in the RCA clear top I'd been using in the Saga to minimize the variables.
> 
> Very early first impressions are that the Lyr is a little less transparent than the Saga and doesn't quite have the impact and drive (rhythm & pacing) of the Saga with the RCA clear top.  It's way to early to make any real judgements since things need to warm up and settle in.  I may try a new Tung Sol or an old GE or Raytheon later, just to see what happens.
> 
> ...


You're comparing a pre-amp (Saga), with an amp (Lyr3). What were you using as an amp with your Saga (+ presumably)?

I'm not sure what you mean by "transparent"? Do you think the Lyr3 "colors" your music?

I'm very happy with my Lyr3 with a new production Tung Sol GTB (I purchased from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HQZ27UW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1, but there's many other vendor choices.) I found about 75-80 hours improved the tube measurably. More time seems to make it even better. Very, very happy at 300+ hours.

Note: I equalize, and tweak the settings over time from these: https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results.

I use Win 10, and the free EQ APO with Peace front end described here:https://sourceforge.net/projects/peace-equalizer-apo-extension/

Edit: I see you're using a Mac. No suggestions from me for Mac EQ.


----------



## Tralfaz

cgb3 said:


> You're comparing a pre-amp (Saga), with an amp (Lyr3). What were you using as an amp with your Saga (+ presumably)?
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "transparent"? Do you think the Lyr3 "colors" your music?
> 
> ...



Much of my listening has been through powered desktop speakers (the Fluid FX80s) which is why I was using the Saga (non + version) as a preamp.  The problem with the Saga is that it meant that I needed a separate headphone amp for those times when I either couldn't or didn't want to listen through my speakers.  I got the Lyr 3 to do double duty as a preamp and as a headphone amp.

As I noted in my earlier post, those impressions were just first impressions.  After swapping the RCA with a Raytheon 6SN7GT and letting the amp warm up things improved significantly with the Lyr communicating much more detail and with better tonality.  If I were to characterize the sound of the Saga vs. the Lyr _at this point_ I'd say the Saga presents music from a seat closer to the stage while the Lyr's presentation is more middle-of-the-hall with transients slightly rounded off though with a wider soundstage.

To me, transparency is where there are as few layers between you and the music as possible; a lack of transparency is often manifested by the loss of very fine detail.  One of the things I love about my system is how it allows me to hear deep into the recording/mix while still presenting music as more than the sum of its individual parts - it just sounds _right_.  My hope is that I can get the Lyr close to the same point as the Saga (and based on what I heard later last night I think the potential is there, I just need to tweak things until I get there).

I use the Loki for some gentle EQ rather than do it digitally (for no reason other than I already had the Loki from my desktop system when I transitioned to work-from-home).  My thoughts on EQ have evolved over time, from thinking that all EQ is sinful and should be avoided to now thinking that there's a place for subtle EQ to make listening more enjoyable.  I've been able to dial out a slight dip at the crossover point of my speakers and flatten out the sound of some headphones that had a very V-shaped frequency response.

I really appreciate your endorsement of the Tung Sol tube.  I have one that came from Schiit as an upgrade with my Saga and will pop it into the Lyr this weekend and let it burn in over the next week or so.

By the end f the day yesterday I was really liking the Lyr a lot.  I know it's early but I think I'll eventually get things where I want them.


----------



## hmss007

Received and installed the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z tube today. Damn, it’s a tight fit in the Lyr 3.

Burn-in started, looking forward to listening.


----------



## FLTWS

Are you using a socket saver? That makes it a lot easier to install and withdraw and the tube and the cabinet seems to run cooler, and with more air around the tube it may extend tube life. Its a tight fit with coke bottle shaped tubes without a saver.


----------



## FLTWS (Nov 7, 2020)




----------



## Odin412

FLTWS said:


> Are you using a socket saver? That makes it a lot easier to install and withdraw and the tube and the cabinet seems to run cooler, and with more air around the tube it may extend tube life. Its a tight fit with coke bottle shaped tubes without a saver.



I agree - some of the new tubes from Psvane and Shuguang are much easier to install with a socket saver. I hadn't thought about the temperature difference, but that's a good point.


----------



## hmss007

FLTWS said:


> Are you using a socket saver? That makes it a lot easier to install and withdraw and the tube and the cabinet seems to run cooler, and with more air around the tube it may extend tube life. Its a tight fit with coke bottle shaped tubes without a saver.


Not using a socket saver yet. I have one but figure I’d try without to start. But now rethinking. It just doesn’t look as nice with the saver.


----------



## FLTWS

I just avert my eyes, LOL, but then the TII is a nice looking tube that sounds great to me.


----------



## hmss007

FLTWS said:


> I just avert my eyes, LOL, but then the TII is a nice looking tube that sounds great to me.


Can you send me details on that tube?


----------



## FLTWS

https://psvanetube.com/wordpress/product/cv181-tii-pair/


----------



## hmss007

I've added my socket saver, much better and makes me less nervous about how close the tube was to the case of the Lyr 3. I listen to it for a couple hours last night (first 24 hours) and I like what I'm hearing so far. What has your experience been for the tube to burn-in? I've heard about 300 hours, but the changes start at 30-50 hours?


----------



## FLTWS (Nov 7, 2020)

If changes do occur they are going to happen slowly with my ears constantly adjusting to them. To give the devil his due, I like 50 hours for small signal tubes and 75 to 100 for power tubes. But I'm listening almost every day so my assessment is probably changing with the tube as / if its changing. The acid test? Buy a matched pair of tubes, listen daily but only use 1 of the 2 tubes for the first 100 hours. Keep track of playing hours. When you get to 100 hours on tube 1 pop in tube 2. You now have your answer.

I suspect many top tier tubes may get 24 to 48 hours before measuring, boxing, and putting in inventory of the manufacturer or more likely, the dealer. I bought all of my KT77's and KT88's for my PrimaLuna from Upscale. If memory serves, with their TOTL power tubes they measure the tubes, burn them in on specialized machinery for 72 hours, measure again, box and place in inventory, and match as requested. It doesn't take me long to do another 25 hours myself, and that's good enough for me. There may certainly be exceptions but from that point on I focus on the music not the aging process. I use to be of the opinion that a lot of hours were needed on all hardware to get to the sweet spot (not so much any more), but tubes are not wine or cheese. They are however price-y depending on what you lust for and they have a limited lifespan. But that's just my take. By all means try the 2 tube challenge for yourself (wallet permitting, maybe a matched pair of TII's and / or a matched pair of say a much cheaper brand new Tung-Sol's or Electro-Harmonix) and see what changes and by how much. Not sure if this works with NOS as how does one determine how N the tube is?

Or, you can just listen and let it happen, or not.


----------



## Tralfaz

After several days and 4 different tubes I'm currently running a GE clear top with D getter that I'm liking a lot.  It's the most dynamic-sounding tube I've tried (Raytheon, Sylvania, RCA are the others) and it's pretty good, tonally (thought the bass can be a little muddy).  I'm definitely getting there.

Also, I must have the best-sounding Zoom meetings in town!


----------



## Zachik

Tralfaz said:


> I'm currently running a *GE* clear top with D getter that I'm liking a lot.


That would do it - @bcowen is going to ban you from this thread!


----------



## FLTWS

Zachik said:


> That would do it - @bcowen is going to ban you from this thread!


----------



## Tralfaz (Nov 11, 2020)

I may have misspoken about the D getter but they're definitely GE clear tops and I'm liking them a lot.  Though they have some issues tonally with muddy bass and slightly soft in the extreme highs (though this part could be my middle-aged ears).  Great mids and dynamic as all get-out.  Perhaps not the end of the search but I'm appreciating the Lyr 3 a lot more.

Please don't ban me!!!


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 11, 2020)

@bcowen cannot ban you from this thread, although he may heavily advocate and annoy the mods until they finally do so.  He will, with 100% certainty, unfriend you from 'The Facebook', however.


----------



## Zachik

Tralfaz said:


> Please don't ban me!!!


@bcowen - Bill, @Tralfaz is new to Lyr 3, so he does not know GE is a big no-no.  Be gentle with him


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> That would do it - @bcowen is going to ban you from this thread!



LOL!  No worries...I already banned myself.  Handed everything over to @Ripper2860 .    (read quick before _this_ post is deleted)


----------



## Tralfaz

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcown cannot ban you form this thread, although he may heavily advocate and annoy the mods until they finally do so.  He will, with 100% certainty, unfriend you from 'The Facebook', however.



You guys are hysterical - this thread is so much fun as well as informative!

I haven't read the entire thread (it takes a long time to get through almost 300 pages) so I didn't know about GE tubes' reputation - please forgive me!  Seriously, why are they so unloved?  My sample is far from perfect but today it's doing a lot of the things I like.  If not GE, what tubes can you good folks recommend?  Please note that I don't want to invest too much into another tube.

As of today I can choose from Raytheons, Sylvanias, RCAs, GEs, a new JJ, and a new Tung Sol.  I haven't tried the JJ or the Tung Sol yet.  What else can I try?


----------



## cgb3 (Nov 11, 2020)

I'm sure this link is familiar to many. It was new to me.
https://audio-head.com/double-blind-a-b-schiit-shootout-tubes/

Apparently, the new manufacture Tung-Sol performed well.
" _As a final note. In a just-for-fun execution, we also compared Schiit’s current Tung sol tube that ships standard with the Saga +( _note: this was written 9/30/19, when Tung-Sol was the house Schiit tube) _and the comparative performance to our top two winners was extremely admirable, if not downright competitive._"

" I don't need no stinking Bad Boys", (with a nod to John Houston and "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre").


----------



## Zachik

Tralfaz said:


> I didn't know about GE tubes' reputation - please forgive me! Seriously, why are they so unloved?


@bcowen has been the crusader against GE tubes.
For quite some time now, I have been suspecting that the real reason is because GE are THE best tubes. Bill is stocking up, while keeping us (the competition) away with false propaganda and dis-information!


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Zachik said:


> @bcowen has been the crusader against GE tubes.
> For quite some time now, I have been suspecting that the real reason is because GE are THE best tubes. Bill is stocking up, while keeping us (the competition) away with false propaganda and dis-information!



The legendary GE Clear-Glass Round-Silver-Plates? A closely-guarded secret for sure, but perhaps the time has come to disclose...


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 11, 2020)

That looks an awful lot like a 6SL7 and a side getter at that.  I could be wrong, though, but I doubt it.


----------



## bcowen (Nov 11, 2020)

Ripper2860 said:


> That looks an awful lot like a 6SL7......I could be wrong...



You're not.  Kinda printed on the glass. 

But good head-fake by @tubebuyer2020 .


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> @bcowen has been the crusader against GE tubes.
> For quite some time now, I have been suspecting that the real reason is because GE are THE best tubes. Bill is stocking up, while keeping us (the competition) away with false propaganda and dis-information!



Well, to be perfectly fair, probably not _all _GE tubes sound horrible. Manufacturing tolerances were far more inconsistent back then, and I'm sure they made some that were way out of spec and actually sound good.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> You're not.  Kinda printed on the glass.
> 
> But good head-fake by @tubebuyer2020 .



One can never be too sure.  Could have been a partially rubbed off 'N'.  Round plates were a giveaway, though.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> One can never be too sure.  Could have been a partially rubbed off 'N'.  Round plates were a giveaway, though.



GE's lettering is etched in the glass. Just like the telltale dots. Kind of impossible to rub off. I think the etching was required by the government (just for them) to make sure the customer knew with certainty who was responsible for the money they just wasted.


----------



## Ripper2860

Did I say 'rubbed off'?  I meant Photoshop'ed off.


----------



## tafens

Tralfaz said:


> I'm currently running a GE clear top with D getter that I'm liking a lot.





Zachik said:


> That would do it - @bcowen is going to ban you from this thread!



It could be just branded GE but made by another manufacturer - then it would be Ok. Defaced but Ok.


----------



## Tralfaz

cgb3 said:


> I'm sure this link is familiar to many. It was new to me.
> https://audio-head.com/double-blind-a-b-schiit-shootout-tubes/
> 
> Apparently, the new manufacture Tung-Sol performed well.
> ...



This is interesting.  So interesting that I just swapped out the GE for the new Tung Sol so let's see how this goes...

No more tube swapping for a bit, I'll need to let the Tung Sol settle in for a few days before making any judgements (which isn't in my nature - I have opinions NOW, dammit!).


----------



## cgb3

Tralfaz said:


> This is interesting.  So interesting that I just swapped out the GE for the new Tung Sol so let's see how this goes...
> 
> No more tube swapping for a bit, I'll need to let the Tung Sol settle in for a few days before making any judgements (which isn't in my nature - I have opinions NOW, dammit!).


My impressions on the new Tung Sol; Appreciably better sound after 75 hrs. It's improved since. After 500 hrs., I wonder what another tube will bring. Note: this impression is on very well recorded music. I'm mostly jazz female voice, hard bop jazz, folk, and classic rock.


----------



## Tralfaz

cgb3 said:


> My impressions on the new Tung Sol; Appreciably better sound after 75 hrs. It's improved since. After 500 hrs., I wonder what another tube will bring. Note: this impression is on very well recorded music. I'm mostly jazz female voice, hard bop jazz, folk, and classic rock.



I've really liked the new Tung Sol.  It was really starting to sound great until I tried to swap it into the Saga for comparison and broke the center pin (not just the key, the whole thing snapped off) so I'm back to using the Sylvania, which I'm liking a lot.

The Lyr 3 is starting to come into its own as the frequency extremes are extending a bit and I'm starting to get more depth to the image.  Definitely a keeper!

I'll stick with the Sylvania for now but might try another Tung Sol if I feel like buying more tubes.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


----------



## FLTWS (Nov 26, 2020)

Happy Thanksgiving all. Let's celebrate by talking about turkey and tubes. I'll take the lead on tubes. Some of us have recently been provided with a pristine same of the  1958 Melz, no-holed plate, by Paladin for evaluation.
To that end my notes on said tube. (and other ramblings on sound related stuff - in a blabby mood today so far). 

Moved to The Reference 6SN7 Thread


----------



## KillerQ (Nov 30, 2020)

Hey, All
I just picked up a Schiit Lyr3 from someone locally. They have had it about a month and decided to upgrade to a Bottlehead Crack.

Amyhow, it came with a gorgeous Psvane Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE tube. It sound amazing and everything works great. Plenty of power for my Planars.

However, when ever I use any other tube from my collection, the lyr3 will make an audible click and mute itself for about 15 seconds every 10 seconds or so. This happens regardless of song or regardless of volume level, and even happens with the stock lyr3 tube that it Ships with. The tubes from my collection that I am testing are are all 6SN7 and work just fine in my other amps.

Again, the unit works perfectly when the treasure globe tube is put back in.

any thoughts?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Zachik

KillerQ said:


> when ever I use any other tube from my collection


Can you elaborate on that collection of yours?
Are you sure they're 6SN7 tubes?
Have you tested or can you test those on a different amp or preamp?


----------



## KillerQ

Zachik said:


> Can you elaborate on that collection of yours?
> Are you sure they're 6SN7 tubes?
> Have you tested or can you test those on a different amp or preamp?



Sorry, I thought I mentioned that. Yes, they are NOS 6SN7 tubes that work perfectly in my other amps. One is a Ken-Rad 6SN7GT dual triode, and the other is an RCA. Yet, even the tube that comes included with the amp from Schiit is doing the same thing.


----------



## inmytaxi (Nov 30, 2020)

Monahans67 said:


> Plus it will save you and your tubes from the big "C".  Last thing we want to do is get the virus from our tubes...


*This post may contain misleading or incomplete information. For fact based information on covid, always remember **giyf*


----------



## Zachik

KillerQ said:


> Sorry, I thought I mentioned that. Yes, they are NOS 6SN7 tubes that work perfectly in my other amps. One is a Ken-Rad 6SN7GT dual triode, and the other is an RCA. Yet, even the tube that comes included with the amp from Schiit is doing the same thing.


WOW - so strange!
The fact that your NOS tubes (and stock Schiit tube) work on other amps but not in your Lyr3 makes me want to say the Lyr3 amp is malfunctioning... But that 1 Chinese tube DOES work... Very strange!

Sorry - I am currently out of ideas. Hopefully someone else would have an idea or theory... 🤷‍♂️


----------



## KillerQ

Someone HAS to know. Lol. 


Zachik said:


> WOW - so strange!
> The fact that your NOS tubes (and stock Schiit tube) work on other amps but not in your Lyr3 makes me want to say the Lyr3 amp is malfunctioning... But that 1 Chinese tube DOES work... Very strange!
> 
> Sorry - I am currently out of ideas. Hopefully someone else would have an idea or theory... 🤷‍♂️


----------



## FLTWS

Strange indeed, never experienced this with my LYR3 with any tube (and I got a few of them). I'd be contacting Schiit support about it.


----------



## bcowen

KillerQ said:


> Someone HAS to know. Lol.



What @FLTWS said. No schiit.  I mean, yes to contacting Schiit.


----------



## scottshields

KillerQ said:


> Sorry, I thought I mentioned that. Yes, they are NOS 6SN7 tubes that work perfectly in my other amps. One is a Ken-Rad 6SN7GT dual triode, and the other is an RCA. Yet, even the tube that comes included with the amp from Schiit is doing the same thing.


I have a Lyr3 and have experienced a portion of what you describe.  Mine only does this rarely and I've isolated to one fully reproduceable circumstance and one rare occurance.  If is switch on an appliance that heats, like print from my laser printer, or my daughter turns on her blow dryer, both of which are on the same 15A circuit as the Lyr are plugged into I'll get the click and 15sec of silence.  I can also have this happen rarely from certain songs like "Call You Mine" by the Chainsmokers which has some heavy bass.  My hypothesis is the lyr needs clean and consistent power and if the input isn't quite up to what it demands it has a safety mechanism that will engage thus causing the click and silence.  Have you tried unplugging or switching off everything you can drawing power from the same circuit as the Lyr and see if it still happens?


----------



## bcowen

scottshields said:


> I have a Lyr3 and have experienced a portion of what you describe.  Mine only does this rarely and I've isolated to one fully reproduceable circumstance and one rare occurance.  If is switch on an appliance that heats, like print from my laser printer, or my daughter turns on her blow dryer, both of which are on the same 15A circuit as the Lyr are plugged into I'll get the click and 15sec of silence.  I can also have this happen rarely from certain songs like "Call You Mine" by the Chainsmokers which has some heavy bass.  My hypothesis is the lyr needs clean and consistent power and if the input isn't quite up to what it demands it has a safety mechanism that will engage thus causing the click and silence.  Have you tried unplugging or switching off everything you can drawing power from the same circuit as the Lyr and see if it still happens?



Great suggestion!  A power sag.  Both the laser printer and the blow dryer suck a pretty hefty amount of current from the AC line.

@KillerQ : might be worth trying a different wall outlet that's on a different branch circuit of your abode. Might be a hassle to move stuff, but it would help to rule that out as a possibility...and it's a logical possibility. Why doesn't it happen with the PSVane?  Could be that the PSVane is pulling a little less current (I can't find a spec sheet), and if you're right on the edge that difference could, um, make a difference.


----------



## KillerQ

scottshields said:


> I have a Lyr3 and have experienced a portion of what you describe.  Mine only does this rarely and I've isolated to one fully reproduceable circumstance and one rare occurance.  If is switch on an appliance that heats, like print from my laser printer, or my daughter turns on her blow dryer, both of which are on the same 15A circuit as the Lyr are plugged into I'll get the click and 15sec of silence.  I can also have this happen rarely from certain songs like "Call You Mine" by the Chainsmokers which has some heavy bass.  My hypothesis is the lyr needs clean and consistent power and if the input isn't quite up to what it demands it has a safety mechanism that will engage thus causing the click and silence.  Have you tried unplugging or switching off everything you can drawing power from the same circuit as the Lyr and see if it still happens?


Thanks!! I have a laser printer in that circuit, but it wasn’t printing.   I’ll test it all in a bit. If it turned out that that is the issue, would this (when plugged into the “dirty” circuit help solve the problem ? Tripp Lite 600W 120V Power Conditioner, Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR), AC Surge Protection, 6 Outlets (LS606M) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00006B83G/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fabc_pYuXFbSXHBVQV


----------



## bcowen

KillerQ said:


> Thanks!! I have a laser printer in that circuit, but it wasn’t printing.   I’ll test it all in a bit. If it turned out that that is the issue, would this (when plugged into the “dirty” circuit help solve the problem ? Tripp Lite 600W 120V Power Conditioner, Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR), AC Surge Protection, 6 Outlets (LS606M) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00006B83G/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fabc_pYuXFbSXHBVQV



It should stabilize the voltage.  I've never much cared for such devices in the audio chain though as their internal switching adds a lot of noise to the line.  

If plugging into a different branch circuit does in fact solve the problem, first thing I'd check is the outlet you have stuff plugged into right now.  Could easily have loose or corroded contacts which would contribute to (if not cause) the problem.  Don't know how much of a DIY'er you are though, so if you're not comfortable messing with the AC then don't.


----------



## tafens

I agree with @scottshields and @bcowen, sounds like the Lyr3 doesn’t get enough current and the power supply sags, and it goes into protection.

As for the rare occurrence with the bass heavy track; I’ve had mine do the same with a very special track (a snippet of sound from a movie I think, can’t remember which) that dips and holds below zero for several seconds, thereby tripping what I believe is a DC protection circuit. After the track goes back to normal the amp clicks again and sound comes back. Notably, it only triggers if the volume is up high enough.


----------



## KillerQ

Moving the laser printer seemed to do the trick. I could force a mute by printing.  I’ll still get the power conditioner.
I suppose the unit isn’t really at fault as this is how it’s designed.
Thanks so much!!




tafens said:


> I agree with @scottshields and @bcowen, sounds like the Lyr3 doesn’t get enough current and the power supply sags, and it goes into protection.
> 
> As for the rare occurrence with the bass heavy track; I’ve had mine do the same with a very special track (a snippet of sound from a movie I think, can’t remember which) that dips and holds below zero for several seconds, thereby tripping what I believe is a DC protection circuit. After the track goes back to normal the amp clicks again and sound comes back. Notably, it only triggers if the volume is up high enough.


----------



## scottshields

KillerQ said:


> Moving the laser printer seemed to do the trick. I could force a mute by printing.  I’ll still get the power conditioner.
> I suppose the unit isn’t really at fault as this is how it’s designed.
> Thanks so much!!


Thanks for confirming... FWIW I did contact Schiit about this and they didn't seem to be aware that this may be an issue.  I can follow up with them again and perhaps they could put this in a faq or their manual.


----------



## KillerQ (Nov 30, 2020)

scottshields said:


> Thanks for confirming... FWIW I did contact Schiit about this and they didn't seem to be aware that this may be an issue.  I can follow up with them again and perhaps they could put this in a faq or their manual.


You’re welcome.  Even when the printer was in idle it would make the amp act up. 4 out of 5 times that I printed, it immediately tripped.
If they have more questions, let me know. I’ll put the printer back after I connect the lower conditioner and will report back.
Thanks for following up!


----------



## cgb3 (Dec 3, 2020)

KillerQ said:


> However, when ever I use any other tube from my collection, the lyr3 will make an audible click and mute itself for about 15 seconds every 10 seconds or so. This happens regardless of song or regardless of volume level, and even happens with the stock lyr3 tube that it Ships with.
> 
> Again, the unit works perfectly when the treasure globe tube is put back in.


I'm curious where you live (generally)?


----------



## KillerQ

cgb3 said:


> I own the Lry3. Amusing that the believe the the Bottlehead Crack an "upgrade"; but then I see you like Psvane.
> 
> Different strokes...
> 
> I'm curious where you live (generally)?


I didn’t say it was an upgrade. I don’t even own it. The globe does sound nice. Have you heard it in person?


----------



## inmytaxi

Ripper2860 said:


> @bcowen cannot ban you from this thread, although he may heavily advocate and annoy the mods until they finally do so.  He will, with 100% certainty, unfriend you from 'The Facebook', however.


It might be helpful to have a roster with positions and batting averages.


----------



## dilupus

cgb3 said:


> I own the Lry3. Amusing that the believe the the Bottlehead Crack an "upgrade"



It wasn't a Bottlehead Crack, and I wasn't upgrading; I was side-grading to another OTL amp (ZDT Jr for now, something bigger if I like it,) for more of a tube sound. I like the Lyr 3 a lot, but I wanted something more tubey for my 6XX and Auteurs.



KillerQ said:


> I’ll still get the power conditioner.



Oh. I've been using a Pyle rackmount power conditioner for a while. Didn't even think that might be an issue.


----------



## FLTWS

dilupus said:


> It wasn't a Bottlehead Crack, and I wasn't upgrading; I was side-grading to another OTL amp (ZDT Jr for now, something bigger if I like it,) for more of a tube sound. I like the Lyr 3 a lot, but I wanted something more tubey for my 6XX and Auteurs.



I have a LYR3 with a variety of tubes from Psvane's (which I like a lot) to Melz, Fotons, Ken-Rads, Westinghouse,...you name it). Listened to by itself it is a great sounding hybrid amp.
Then I fire up my all tube (driver and power tube circuit) amps it makes for a very different sound, in a side by side comparison, that is timeless (for me) as it reminds me of the rich, full blooded quality of sound I remember in my youth. But that may not work best for all individuals' tastes. And matching the HP with the right amp is an important part of the equation to me.



dilupus said:


> Oh. I've been using a Pyle rackmount power conditioner for a while. Didn't even think that might be an issue.



Simply plug the units in use into a simple AC strip and see what happens.


----------



## Tralfaz

I've had my Lyr 3 a little while now and have tried a few different tubes in it.  All sound at least good though some are definitely better than others.

In order of preference, here's what I've tried so far:

1. Sylvania 6SN7 GT.  It's branded as a Motorola and is my favorite tube so far.
2. Raytheon 6SN7 GT.  A close 2nd to the Sylvania but not quite there.
3. Tung Sol 6SN7 GTB (new production).  This tube is terrific but I broke the center pin before it was fully broken-in, will try another one sometime in early 2021 because I think there's great potential here.
4. RCA clear-top 6SN7 GTB.  I really like this in my Saga but there are better choices for the Lyr 3.
5. GE (branded as a Philco) 6SN7 GTB.  I liked this a lot at first but it's been surpassed by other tubes.

I'm still waiting on some Westinghouse Reliatron 6SN7s of various vintages, if the USPS ever finds and delivers them.  I also have the stock JJ that I haven't tried yet.

My biggest takeaway is how great the Lyr 3 is as an amp.  At its worst it sounds really good but at its best it really sings.


----------



## bcowen

Tralfaz said:


> I'm still waiting on some Westinghouse Reliatron 6SN7s of various vintages, if the USPS ever finds and delivers them.



Wishing you the best of luck on that.  They're still looking for my Tung Sol 5998 that shipped last May.


----------



## Zachik

Tralfaz said:


> My biggest takeaway is how great the Lyr 3 is as an amp. At its worst it sounds really good but at its best it really sings.


Agreed!
My Lyr3 does not get much use recently, due to better (albeit much more expensive) amps. For its price point - the Lyr3 is pretty awesome!!  IMHO the biggest competition at that price point is the Monoprice Liquid Platinum which has been dropped to $399 a little while ago.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Wishing you the best of luck on that.  They're still looking for my Tung Sol 5998 that shipped last May.


Bill - I expected you to respond to the GE tubes... Did you miss that part?!


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> Bill - I expected you to respond to the GE tubes... Did you miss that part?!



I already set an "ignore" to any post containing GE.  LOL!!!


----------



## hmss007

@Tralfaz Curious about the Sylvania 6SN7 GT and what you like about it and why it’s your favorite. I’m currently using the Tung-Sol, it’s great but always looking for better.


----------



## KillerQ

Dual 6J5 NOS RCA Metal tubes!!!


----------



## KillerQ

Zachik said:


> Agreed!
> My Lyr3 does not get much use recently, due to better (albeit much more expensive) amps. For its price point - the Lyr3 is pretty awesome!!  IMHO the biggest competition at that price point is the Monoprice Liquid Platinum which has been dropped to $399 a little while ago.


which more powerful amps are you using, and which headphones?


----------



## Zachik

KillerQ said:


> which more powerful amps are you using, and which headphones?


Mostly, 2 custom amps built by Glenn. Glenn OTL (a.k.a. GOTL) and Glenn's EL3N a.k.a. (you guessed it) GEL3N.
Headphones: HD600, ZMF Verite and ZMF Aeolus.


----------



## Tralfaz

hmss007 said:


> @Tralfaz Curious about the Sylvania 6SN7 GT and what you like about it and why it’s your favorite. I’m currently using the Tung-Sol, it’s great but always looking for better.



I find the Sylvania has a more solid image and slightly better highs though not by a lot.  As I noted, the Tung Sol was sounding very good until I broke it and of the tubes I've tried, it's the Tung Sol that I think has the most potential to improve after it burns in for a while (the other tubes are all old stock that were used but tested well).  I owe you a debt of gratitude because if you hadn't recommended the Tung Sol so highly I would never have tried it (_because vintage is always better, right?_).

There are other tubes out there I'll try some day (Ken Rads, VT-231s, etc.) but for now I'm content to enjoy what I have (unless the Westinghouse tubes ever arrive and turn out to be awesome).

On a side note, I recently started using the Audirvana music player on my iMac and it's been a revelation, easily besting the iTunes/Music app for playback of all file types and making far more of a difference than changing tubes in my Lyr 3 ever did.


----------



## Tralfaz

bcowen said:


> I already set an "ignore" to any post containing GE.  LOL!!!



Just for grins I popped in the GE for a few hours this morning to see how it compared to the Sylvania.  No contest, not even close - the Sylvania is by far the superior tube in all areas.  I had tried the GE early on in my ownership of the Lyr 3 and at the time thought it was okay but no, it isn't.  There might be another application where it works better but it's not a great match for the Lyr 3.


----------



## Tralfaz

What is the consensus on early-1980s production Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA tubes in the Lyr 3?  I thought they were out of the tube business by then but apparently they were still manufacturing tubes.  How do they compare to the older versions?

I have a line on some for not a lot of money and might take a flyer but thought I'd do some due diligence first.

Thanks!


----------



## bcowen

Tralfaz said:


> What is the consensus on early-1980s production Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA tubes in the Lyr 3?  I thought they were out of the tube business by then but apparently they were still manufacturing tubes.  How do they compare to the older versions?
> 
> I have a line on some for not a lot of money and might take a flyer but thought I'd do some due diligence first.
> 
> Thanks!



I'm not sure exactly which tubes you're referring to, but if it's labeled as a WGTA my guess is it also has the ECG label.  We all have our own preferences so take this as a FWIW, but if those _do_ in fact have the ECG label on them my advice would be to run away. Fast. You'll like the GE better.    There's a reason they're cheap...

If they don't have the ECG silkscreened in blue or green ink, then nevermind the above.   Got any pics by chance?


----------



## Tralfaz

Here's a pic from the listing (which I decided to buy because it worked out to <$10/tube):









I hope this helps.

Thank you!


----------



## bcowen

Tralfaz said:


> Here's a pic from the listing (which I decided to buy because it worked out to <$10/tube):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can't say I've ever heard any that look like that, so I can't offer any input one way or the other....sorry!


----------



## Tralfaz

No worries - thanks for checking!

I have a few concerns but the seller has good feedback and seems solid, so let's see how this goes (fingers crossed)...

Meanwhile there's been no news on the fate of the Westinghouse tubes I ordered a couple of weeks ago, at least according to the USPS.


----------



## cgb3

Tralfaz said:


> No worries - thanks for checking!
> 
> I have a few concerns but the seller has good feedback and seems solid, so let's see how this goes (fingers crossed)...
> 
> Meanwhile there's been no news on the fate of the Westinghouse tubes I ordered a couple of weeks ago, at least according to the USPS.


Don't you love the 'net. Perfect strangers throw shade on your purchases.

Here's mine:

I'm dubious Sylvania would have allowed valves to leave the factory with such miss-aligned graphics. And the miss-alignment isn't constant, but varies by example.

I've read stories of people who buy tubes from Russia or China for pennies a piece. It's an easy process to create a silk screen, and squeegee a bit of ink.

Hopefully, I'm wrong, and the tubes will sound magnificent.


----------



## Tralfaz

I was thinking the same thing (after I’d already bought then, of course).  Though if you wanted to fake a tube I don’t know if this is the best one to fake.

I imagine these will turn out to be real but of the ECG variety.  They appear to be from 1981 which is right before Philips bought the tooling from Sylvania and started making the 6SN7 WGTA themselves.

I’ll know soon enough, I guess.


----------



## bcowen

Tralfaz said:


> I was thinking the same thing (after I’d already bought then, of course).  Though if you wanted to fake a tube I don’t know if this is the best one to fake.
> 
> I imagine these will turn out to be real but of the ECG variety.  They appear to be from 1981 which is right before Philips bought the tooling from Sylvania and started making the 6SN7 WGTA themselves.
> 
> I’ll know soon enough, I guess.



Well, if worse comes to worse and they sound terrible, buy a cheap silkscreening setup and relabel them as 33S30B's (contact BangyBangTubes for expert advice on the relabeling process if needed).  State in the ad you found them at a garage sale, you know nothing about tubes, and they're being sold as-is with no returns.  Or if you want, state they've been tested, but don't provide any relevant tester information or test values.  Price 'em at $4,000/pair to start, but accept an offer at $3500.  Just be sure to offer free shipping.


----------



## nasty nate

Spending some time with my Lyr 3 / Treasure Globe - love the sound more and more each day


----------



## FLTWS

nasty nate said:


> Spending some time with my Lyr 3 / Treasure Globe - love the sound more and more each day


I like it as well, but I also like my Psvane 6SN7 UK, and CV181-TII.


----------



## Odin412

nasty nate said:


> Spending some time with my Lyr 3 / Treasure Globe - love the sound more and more each day



It's a beautiful tube, but it looks like a tight fit. have you looked at getting a socket saver?


----------



## nasty nate

Odin412 said:


> It's a beautiful tube, but it looks like a tight fit. have you looked at getting a socket saver?



Maybe - it has a few mm of room around the socket - and my room is temp controlled so the amp / bulb never get hot to the touch. 

Do you have any good recommendations for a socket saver? I've seen a few in this thread and the Lyr Tube Rolling thread - but those were posted a long time ago.


----------



## Odin412

nasty nate said:


> Maybe - it has a few mm of room around the socket - and my room is temp controlled so the amp / bulb never get hot to the touch.
> 
> Do you have any good recommendations for a socket saver? I've seen a few in this thread and the Lyr Tube Rolling thread - but those were posted a long time ago.



I use this one: https://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html
There may be others that are better, but the price of this one is reasonable and it works as expected.


----------



## scottshields

Odin412 said:


> I use this one: https://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html
> There may be others that are better, but the price of this one is reasonable and it works as expected.


I have this one to give multiple options.  More expensive but seems well made.


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> Well, if worse comes to worse and they sound terrible, buy a cheap silkscreening setup and relabel them as 33S30B's (contact BangyBangTubes for expert advice on the relabeling process if needed)



Nah, according to those in the know at the time, about the only thing the 33S30’s were good for was to make the icy pavement in the winter less slippery by smashing them and walking on the glass shards..
Perhaps that’s why they’re so rare now?


----------



## bcowen

tafens said:


> Nah, according to those in the know at the time, about the only thing the 33S30’s were good for was to make the icy pavement in the winter less slippery by smashing them and walking on the glass shards..
> Perhaps that’s why they’re so rare now?



Well, in the US we use cat litter for that.  Preferably unused.    

I've never heard the 33S30's, and at the prices they go for it's a pretty good certainty I never will.


----------



## LoryWiv

Odin412 said:


> I use this one: https://www.partsconnexion.com/SOCKET-74489.html
> There may be others that are better, but the price of this one is reasonable and it works as expected.


Head-fi member @Deyan makes excellent sockets and adapters, and responds fairly promptly to PM's.


----------



## tafens

tafens said:


> Nah, according to those in the know at the time, about the only thing the 33S30’s were good for was to make the icy pavement in the winter less slippery by smashing them and walking on the glass shards..
> Perhaps that’s why they’re so rare now?





bcowen said:


> Well, in the US we use cat litter for that. Preferably unused.



I wonder if I could trade some from BanyBang for a bag of cat litter then. I mean now that their real worth is established and all 



bcowen said:


> I've never heard the 33S30's, and at the prices they go for it's a pretty good certainty I never will.



To be fair I’ve never heard them either (of course, who has at that price ) and the man was talking about their worth for the intended purpose. The might well be excellent sonically (although I do think their price is mostly due to their rarity).


----------



## Tralfaz

Miraculously the Westinghouse 6SN7 GTs arrived today.  I just dropped one into the Lyr 3 and will let it settle in overnight before listening critically.  Further bulletins as events warrant...


----------



## FLTWS

Tralfaz said:


> Miraculously the Westinghouse 6SN7 GTs arrived today.  I just dropped one into the Lyr 3 and will let it settle in overnight before listening critically.  Further bulletins as events warrant...



"D" or "Halo" getter?


----------



## Tralfaz

FLTWS said:


> "D" or "Halo" getter?



It lookalike a "D" getter under the chrome top.


----------



## FLTWS

That is supposed to be the one to have. I have a couple of each getter type. 
Both types sound very good.


----------



## Tralfaz

FLTWS said:


> That is supposed to be the one to have. I have a couple of each getter type.
> Both types sound very good.



Thank you for letting me know, I was just hoping to grab a few more good-sounding tubes to go with my Sylvania GTs and knew folks speak highly of the Westinghouse tubes.

My way-too-early review: it's good!


----------



## Tralfaz

Organizing my thoughts on this Westinghouse 6SN7 GT after a few days one thing I noticed right away is how dynamic this tube sounds - transients just jump out of the speakers or headphones.

Other thoughts:

Stereo separation is very good and images are very solid within a deep soundstage.  Things seem tonally "right" with no apparent rolloff (though I don't hear very high frequencies as well as I did when I was younger).  Music has the appropriate sense of scale and there's plenty of detail.

I guess I _very slightly_ prefer this over over the Sylvania - it's close but I think the dynamics that give the edge to the Westinghouse.  Both are great tubes and I can (and plan to) live very happily with them both.

Overall it's a great tube and will probably stay in the Lyr 3 for a while (though I've said this before and we know how that's gone).


----------



## cgb3

A new resource for me (in my continuing valve education).

RCA HB-3 tube manual

Full referance


----------



## Tralfaz

Well, the 1981-vintage Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA tubes arrived a few days ago.  While there's no "ECG" label I do wonder if this isn't part of the ECG family tree...

Each tube came in a matching box:





I put one into the Lyr 3 and let it cook for a couple of days before listening critically but now here are my thoughts:

It's the complete opposite of the Westinghouse 6SN7 GT I had been using and enjoying.  It's flat, lifeless, dull, slow, muddy, and not much fun to listen to.  It is quiet, though.  It might even get better over time but life's too short to listen to bad audio.

For now I'll hold onto them since I might someday find a situation where they'll work better but for now I'll stick with the Westinghouse (my favorite so far) and the older Sylvania 6SN7 GT (which is a completely different-sounding tube).  I suspect I have enough decent tubes collected to easily outlast the Lyr 3 - though I still want another Tung Sol (to replace the one I broke) and maybe a wartime Ken Rad if I can find one that's not too expensive, just to try.


----------



## Ripper2860

In my opinion you will find many more similarities than differences between the Westinghouse D getter and wartime KR.  The slight differences results in my giving a very slight nod to the Westinghouse in my Lyr 3.  YMMV. 😉


----------



## Zachik

Tralfaz said:


> life's too short to listen to bad audio.


Agreed!  Useful for testing purposes, for example. Could also be used for ornaments... 



Tralfaz said:


> For now I'll hold onto them since I might someday find a situation where they'll work better


Those would be the perfect stocking stuffers for @bcowen or @Ripper2860 who are famous for enjoying GE and other crap tubes


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 18, 2020)

And a Merry Christmas to you, as well, @Zachik .


----------



## Tralfaz

Zachik said:


> Agreed!  Useful for testing purposes, for example. Could also be used for ornaments...
> 
> 
> Those would be the perfect stocking stuffers for @bcowen or @Ripper2860 who are famous for enjoying GE and other crap tubes



Or I could use them as Christmas tree ornaments...


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> Those would be the perfect stocking stuffers for @bcowen or @Ripper2860 who are famous for enjoying GE and other crap tubes



The crap tubes comment doesn't even raise an eyebrow, but putting me and @Ripper2860 in the same sentence?  That's how world wars get started, buddy.


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> And a Merry Christmas to you, as well, @Zachik .





bcowen said:


> The crap tubes comment doesn't even raise an eyebrow, but putting me and @Ripper2860 in the same sentence?  That's how world wars get started, buddy.


How about quoting both of you on the same post, Bill?   

Seriously, happy holidays guys!  You have made me smile quite a few times in those frustrating times 
I will toast for 2021 being much better than 2020 (I know, low bar...). May you all find amazing tubes in rock bottom prices.
Who knows - maybe Lyr 4 in 2021 with even better sound at the same price?


----------



## cgb3 (Dec 18, 2020)

Lyr 4?

Maybe. I'm pretty pleased with the current model.

I would like to see an easy way to switch tubes, without removing. Say a valve riser with switch.

I'm currently enjoying 6F8G tubes. Love the early '40's National Union round plate for female voice, prefer RCA smoked glass black flat plate bottom getter as an all around tube. Maybe a new Tung Sol 6SN7 as an every day choice? 3 tubes with a toggle switch.

I'm curious. If something as described was avalable commercially (assuming no compromises, and at under $100), would there be demand?


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> How about quoting both of you on the same post, Bill?
> 
> Seriously, happy holidays guys!  You have made me smile quite a few times in those frustrating times
> I will toast for 2021 being much better than 2020 (I know, low bar...). May you all find amazing tubes in rock bottom prices.
> Who knows - maybe Lyr 4 in 2021 with even better sound at the same price?



And happiest of holidays to you too Zachi...and everyone else.  I hate to think how even suckier this past year would have been without the joy and pleasure of our music and the fun and camaraderie in these pages...


----------



## bcowen

cgb3 said:


> Lyr 4?
> 
> Maybe. I'm pretty pleased with the current model.
> 
> ...



My only comment would be that adding a switch (no matter how high the quality) would be a compromise. Perhaps not a significant liability for many people, but it would be for me.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> My only comment would be that adding a switch (no matter how high the quality) would be a compromise. Perhaps not a significant liability for many people, but it would be for me.


Regarding @cgb3 question of feasibility for such "contraption" - I am sure @Deyan can answer 

Bill - I suspect that such degradation would be claimed by audiophiles, who would fail miserably when asked to prove in a blind A/B to identify which Lyr3 is "native" and which uses this switch gadgetry. 
Maybe measurable, but likely not audible, IMHO of course


----------



## bcowen

Zachik said:


> Regarding @cgb3 question of feasibility for such "contraption" - I am sure @Deyan can answer
> 
> Bill - I suspect that such degradation would be claimed by audiophiles, who would fail miserably when asked to prove in a blind A/B to identify which Lyr3 is "native" and which uses this switch gadgetry.
> Maybe measurable, but likely not audible, IMHO of course



You may be right. However, @cgb3 stated "assuming no compromises" in his question, and I will stand by *my* statement that any switch inserted into the signal path is a compromise versus that same signal path without a switch.  So you could quite possibly be correct from the practical standpoint, but I'm correct from the technical standpoint.  So there.  Or something.


----------



## cgb3

bcowen said:


> You may be right. However, @cgb3 stated "assuming no compromises" in his question, and I will stand by *my* statement that any switch inserted into the signal path is a compromise versus that same signal path without a switch.  So you could quite possibly be correct from the practical standpoint, but I'm correct from the technical standpoint.  So there.  Or something.


It was a harebrained idea from the start. I fell asleep (or passed out), awoke, and imagined a flux capacitor, only with valves.

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Dec 19, 2020)

Never, Ever - No, I mean Always...

... contradict anything @bcowen says here.  He is an online forum masochist and thoroughly enjoys it.


----------



## KoshNaranek

Ripper2860 said:


> Never, Ever - No, I mean Always...
> 
> ... contradict anything @bcowen says here.  He is an online forum masochist and thoroughly enjoys it.


So, you are saying that you just want to make him happy?


----------



## bcowen

KoshNaranek said:


> So, you are saying that you just want to make him happy?



LOL!  I've always had a vague suspicion that @Ripper2860 had a redeeming quality, but just couldn't quite put my finger on it until now.


----------



## Ripper2860

KoshNaranek said:


> So, you are saying that you just want to make him happy?



Dammit.  Didn't think that one through, it seems.


----------



## animefreeks (Dec 27, 2020)

Ordered a new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB this past week. Arrived today, and first impressions is that while it's definitely an upgrade over the stock JJ 6SN7 that Schiit provides by default, it's a bit too sharp and harsh for my tastes. It's also VERY fast in attack, probably the fastest tube I've heard thus far, but as a result, this tube is also very fatiguing. Definitely pales in comparison to the TSRP black glass which is MUCH smoother and overall superior to this new Tung Sol. However, where the new production Tung Sol excels in is bass, a touch in resolution, and clarity. There is oodles and oodles of BASS, but the sound signature to me at least sounds like the common V pattern setting on an equalizer. I'd say that this tube is more suited for classical genres and wind instruments, and less so for pop music. Some EDM tracks might benefit from this tube such as "Tiesto - Adagio For Strings".

Schiit Lyr 3 paired with the HiFiMan Ananda w/ stock cables.


----------



## bcowen

animefreeks said:


> Ordered a new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB this past week. Arrived today, and first impressions is that while it's definitely an upgrade over the stock JJ 6SN7 that Schiit provides by default, it's a bit too sharp and harsh for my tastes. It's also VERY fast in attack, probably the fastest tube I've heard thus far, but as a result, this tube is also very fatiguing. Definitely pales in comparison to the TSRP black glass which is MUCH smoother and overall superior to this new Tung Sol. However, where the new production Tung Sol excels in is bass, a touch in resolution, and clarity. There is oodles and oodles of BASS, but the sound signature to me at least sounds like the common V pattern setting on an equalizer. I'd say that this tube is more suited for classical genres and wind instruments, and less so for pop music. Some EDM tracks might benefit from this tube such as "Tiesto - Adagio For Strings".
> 
> Schiit Lyr 3 paired with the HiFiMan Ananda w/ stock cables.



Give it 20 hours (or so) of play and break-in time. I think you'll find that it smooths out and a lot of that treble 'bite' that makes it fatiguing will improve considerably.


----------



## Yacht Rock Guy

bcowen said:


> You're not.  Kinda printed on the glass.
> 
> But good head-fake by @tubebuyer2020 .


Looks like this thread is gotten a little stale. I'm happy to restart. Just acquired a first gen Lyr and want to buy some new tubs. I have money to burn, so what's a recommendation for the top tier tubs for this model? Thanks!


----------



## Yacht Rock Guy

bcowen said:


> You're not.  Kinda printed on the glass.
> 
> But good head-fake by @tubebuyer2020 .


What would you recommend for a top end tube for hard rock/metal? Thanks!


----------



## animefreeks (Dec 30, 2020)

Yacht Rock Guy said:


> Looks like this thread is gotten a little stale. I'm happy to restart. Just acquired a first gen Lyr and want to buy some new tubs. I have money to burn, so what's a recommendation for the top tier tubs for this model? Thanks!



Money to burn? I'd get a NOS Tung-Sol Round Plate


----------



## cgb3 (Dec 30, 2020)

Yacht Rock Guy said:


> Looks like this thread is gotten a little stale. I'm happy to restart. Just acquired a first gen Lyr and want to buy some new tubs. I have money to burn, so what's a recommendation for the top tier tubs for this model? Thanks!


This is the Lyr 3 rolling thread.

If you're sporting a Lyr 1, you need 6dj8/ECC88 valves. The Lyr 3 rolls 6sn7 family valves.

There's probably a Lyr 1 tube roll thread here, I'll let you find it.

Here's a thread to a Darko review of the Lyr 1: https://darko.audio/2011/07/schiit-lyr-headphone-amplifier/


----------



## ScubaMan2017

_*Ah ha. Found my thread.*_ Added to my watch-list.


----------



## wolverine72 (Jan 3, 2021)

Hi All! I've been reading threads on head-fi over the last year and finally just joined!

This has been my favorite thread, as I've enjoyed reading the tube recommendations and all the playful humor between members !

Some background. Previously my only headphone experience, beyond the basics, was a HRT usb dac and Audio Technica ATH-M50 headphones. That setup always sounded shrill, metallic, and fatiguing; and therefore I wasn't listening to music much at all.

Then at the end of 2019, I finally decided I needed to find a way to enjoy music again! After much consternation and reading countless reviews and threads, I jumped in and purchased a Lyr 3 w/MB and DCA Aeon 2 Closed. Wow! This setup was so much better than my previous basic setup!

Tube rolling was all new to me and sounded fun, so I slowly started down the path, first getting a new Tung Sol 6SN7-GTB, Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 EH Gold Pin, and a 1970's Sovtek 6SN7-GT. I didn't like the Sovtek (was fuzzy as I recall) and the TS and EH sounded good, but not much better than the stock JJ to me.

I was looking for some more bass from my setup, so I ended up getting an original RCA 6SN7 early 1940's from VTS. Turns out I never liked this tube. It's too laid back and soft, and the bass doesn't seem that much better to me. Figures 🤦‍♂️, my most expensive tube is one of my least favorites ! Think I'll sell it some day...

Fast forward several months, still looking for some more sonic upgrades and continuing to read this thread, I ended up getting a Psvane UK-6SN7, Psvane CV181-T MKII, a 1958 Foton 6H8C; and drumroll please... a Schiit Bifrost 2! Now we're talking !

I found that with the Lyr3's inbuilt DAC the tube differences weren't nearly as audible. But when switching to the Bifrost 2 the tube changes became much more apparent. And the Bifrost 2 by itself is a huge upgrade IMO; the soundstage became much bigger, the bass is increased, and the timbre of instruments just sounds much more natural.

So with the Bifrost 2 now in play, I've found that I enjoy both Psvane tubes and the Foton much more than my other tubes. If I had to pick a tube for my DCA Aeon 2 Closed, I'd pick the Psvane CV181-T MKII. This tube just has a lot a space and clarity with the Aeon 2, but isn't harsh.

For my Sennheiser 6XX, I again like the Psvane tubes, but seem to just slightly prefer the Foton 6H8C. I find the 6XX's to be too polite at times, and the Foton seems to give them a bit more bite and life.

Anyway, looking forward to the continued discussion on this thread! Cheers everyone!


----------



## Tralfaz

Happy New Year, everyone!

I scored a few Westinghouse 6SN7 GTBs, two with halo getters and two with what looks like square getters.  When I get around to trying them I'll let you all know my thoughts but for now things are sounding so good with the Westinghouse 6SN7 GT I mentioned earlier that I'm in no rush to change anything.  Also, I'm pretty sure I now have enough 6SN7 tubes to outfit several amps. 

For Christmas I treated myself to a new set of headphones, the Focal Clear Professionals.  They're a nice upgrade from the Elear to my ears and are a great match to the Lyr 3, which continues to be a terrific amp that punches well above its weight class.  Next upgrade might be a Bifrost 2 if it's enough of an improvement over the already-excellent Bifrost Multibit with Gen 5, will have to wait and see.


----------



## FLTWS

Tralfaz said:


> Happy New Year, everyone!
> 
> I scored a few Westinghouse 6SN7 GTBs, two with halo getters and two with what looks like square getters.  When I get around to trying them I'll let you all know my thoughts but for now things are sounding so good with the Westinghouse 6SN7 GT I mentioned earlier that I'm in no rush to change anything.  Also, I'm pretty sure I now have enough 6SN7 tubes to outfit several amps.
> 
> For Christmas I treated myself to a new set of headphones, the Focal Clear Professionals.  They're a nice upgrade from the Elear to my ears and are a great match to the Lyr 3, which continues to be a terrific amp that punches well above its weight class.  Next upgrade might be a Bifrost 2 if it's enough of an improvement over the already-excellent Bifrost Multibit with Gen 5, will have to wait and see.



The Westinghouse "square" may be a "D", not a lot of curve on that getter.


----------



## Zachik

wolverine72 said:


> Bifrost 2 by itself is a huge upgrade IMO





Tralfaz said:


> Next upgrade might be a Bifrost 2 if it's enough of an improvement over the already-excellent Bifrost Multibit with Gen 5, will have to wait and see.


I wonder how the new-ish Modius compares to the Bifrost 2 for SE use with the Lyr3...   
Anyone A/B'd them with the Lyr3?


----------



## Odin412

wolverine72 said:


> So with the Bifrost 2 now in play, I've found that I enjoy both Psvane tubes and the Foton much more than my other tubes. If I had to pick a tube for my DCA Aeon 2 Closed, I'd pick the Psvane CV181-T MKII. This tube just has a lot a space and clarity with the Aeon 2, but isn't harsh.



Welcome to the club! I'm glad you enjoy the Psvane tubes - their tubes are excellent and deserve more love from the community.


----------



## tafens

wolverine72 said:


> I ended up getting a Psvane UK-6SN7, Psvane CV181-T MKII, a 1958 Foton 6H8C; and drumroll please... a Schiit Bifrost 2! Now we're talking !



I basically have the same setup as you, Lyr3+Bifrost2 w/ HD6XX headphones. I started with the internal multibit card and then got the Bifrost2, not long after it was released. It made a big big difference compared to the internal multibit card! 

I have a new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB as my daily driver tube, but I also have the Psvane UK-6SN7, which I didn’t really end up liking very much. I’m looking at the Psvane CV181-II though. How would you say the UK-6SN7 compares to the CV181-II?


----------



## wolverine72

Hi @tafens! Yes, we do have the same setup when I'm using the HD6XX! I saw some of your posts regarding dac's along the journey to my current setup... and they were helpful while I was deciding to upgrade to a Bifrost 2, which proved to be a great choice. Thanks!



tafens said:


> How would you say the UK-6SN7 compares to the CV181-II?



Honestly I don't think there's a big difference between the Psvane UK-6S7N and CV181-T MKII. Both have very good clarity and spaciousness to me. I find the CV181 to have a bit less bite and a slightly bigger soundstage than the UK-6SN7, but nothing major. I think they're more similar than different. YMMV.

For the 6XX pairing, I suppose it's more a matter for what your looking for. I like the Foton's better with the 6XX to add a touch more excitement to them.

For me I'd rate these 3 tubes as follows:
_Excitement_: Foton 6H8C > Psvane UK-6SN7 > Psvane CV181-T MKII
_Soundstage_: Psvane CV181-T MKII > Foton 6H8C = Psvane UK-6SN7


----------



## supersonic395 (Jan 3, 2021)

For those of you using the Lyr 3 with the Bifrost 2 and with the Senn HD 6xx series of cans, do you find yourself using low gain or high gain on the Lyr 3?


----------



## Ripper2860

I use low gain with HD6XX.  With high gain the volume pot is set too low and volume tracking is better the higher the pot is rotated.  With low I'm usually at 11:00 on the dial where with high I'm at about 8:00.


----------



## wolverine72

supersonic395 said:


> For those of you using the Lyr 3 with the Bifrost 2 and with the Senn HD 6xx series of cans, do you find yourself using low gain or high gain on the Lyr 3?



I find myself using the HD6XX on high gain for most of the music I listen to (singer songwriters, jazz, pop, alternative, country). I find high gain gives a bit more energy to the sound.

But when I'm listening to soundtracks, live recordings, or classical (i.e. recordings with greater dynamic range) I like to switch to low gain.


----------



## tafens

wolverine72 said:


> Hi @tafens! Yes, we do have the same setup when I'm using the HD6XX! I saw some of your posts regarding dac's along the journey to my current setup... and they were helpful while I was deciding to upgrade to a Bifrost 2, which proved to be a great choice. Thanks!



I’m happy that my posts have been of help! 



wolverine72 said:


> Honestly I don't think there's a big difference between the Psvane UK-6S7N and CV181-T MKII. Both have very good clarity and spaciousness to me. I find the CV181 to have a bit less bite and a slightly bigger soundstage than the UK-6SN7, but nothing major. I think they're more similar than different. YMMV.
> 
> For the 6XX pairing, I suppose it's more a matter for what your looking for. I like the Foton's better with the 6XX to add a touch more excitement to them.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info! I might give it a try then. I love the sound of my setup, but soundstage is something I would like a little bit more of if possible.


----------



## tafens

supersonic395 said:


> For those of you using the Lyr 3 with the Bifrost 2 and with the Senn HD 6xx series of cans, do you find yourself using low gain or high gain on the Lyr 3?



High gain. I find the sound more exciting and dynamic on high gain. The difference is subtle, but worth the reduced range on the volume dial IMO.


----------



## steffinger92

Does anyone know at what plate voltage and grid voltage the Lyr3 runs the tube?

I was curious about that but couldn't find anything in Schiit's specs or owner's manual.


----------



## tafens

steffinger92 said:


> Does anyone know at what plate voltage and grid voltage the Lyr3 runs the tube?
> 
> I was curious about that but couldn't find anything in Schiit's specs or owner's manual.



In Jason’s chapter on the Lyr3 he mentions having a 200V power supply rail, so I assume there is 200V on the plate:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sch...bable-start-up.701900/page-2026#post-14116733


----------



## G0rt

Frankenstein?


----------



## jonathan c (Apr 9, 2021)

G0rt said:


> Frankenstein?


This appears to be a 7N7. These were made by Philco (Lansdale), Sylvania, and others. The 7N7 was called a “loctal” because of its locking feature which made the tube more impervious to vibration. I am currently using two Sylvania / Raytheon branded 7N7s as driver tubes in a Woo Audio WA6. 👍


----------



## G0rt

jonathan c said:


> This appears to be a 7N7. These were made by Philco (Lansdale), Sylvania, and others. The 7N7 was called a “loctal” because of its locking feature which made the tube more impervious to vibration. I am currently using two Sylvania / Raytheon branded 7N7s as driver tubes in a Woo Audio WA6. 👍


That was my thought as well.

I've been running a tall Philco 7N7 in my Lyr3 for months.


----------



## jonathan c

G0rt said:


> That was my thought as well.
> 
> I've been running a tall Philco 7N7 in my Lyr3 for months.


I am still searching for Philco (Lansdale) 7N7s. The Raytheon, RCA, Sylvania 7N7s are great “substitutes” for 6SN7s......(there will always be a place in my amp, though, for CBS/Hytron 5692...)


----------



## davidfrance

bigbenrfan99 said:


> Any recommendations for an adapter to use tubes that work with the Vali 2 (ECC88, 6922, etc) with the Lyr 3?


I don’t think that I see any reply to this. Is it safe to do that ? Use an adapter and an ECC88 or 6922 tube in a Lyr 3 ?


----------



## Wes S

davidfrance said:


> I don’t think that I see any reply to this. Is it safe to do that ? Use an adapter and an ECC88 or 6922 tube in a Lyr 3 ?


Straight from the Schiit Lyr 3 web page - 

"But…I still have all these tubes for the old Lyr!"
"Yes, and if you want to use them, you can still use them in Lyr 3, with an adapter. Lyr 3’s plate voltage isn’t very different than Lyr or Lyr 2."


----------



## JohnBal

Hello good people. I am considering trying some 12au7 and 12at7 tubes with adapter in my Lyr 3. I wonder if anyone else has tried these. I believe I read the 12au7 works well, but I am also wondering about the 12at7. I know there are some very good tubes out there, and I have some nice oldies myself already, but I don't want to kill my Lyr with the 12at7 if nobody has tried it and it dies an ugly death.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 21, 2021)

12AU7 and 12AT7 with the appropriate adapter works wonderfully with Lyr 3. I use them both with no ill results.  I would shy away from 12AX7 as they are quite a bit higher in gain and tend to be noisier.


----------



## tricolor

Mine's a Valhalla 2, but it seems to be somewhat similar... I've been using with Mullards 12at7, and it's perfect with the "gain" switch on..  never tried 12au7 tho.


----------



## G0rt

Just got new '57 Footscray CV4033s in Mjolnir2, so moved my old '61 Rochester CV4033s into Valhalla2. Works a treat.


----------



## adydula

A genuine VT-231....US Navy


----------



## adydula

With a new D8000 Pro and a B2 its a 10/10.

:>)


----------



## DTgill

Just came in today CV181-Z ShuGuang Treasures... Yes it is


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 23, 2021)

Nice!!  I have one and think very highly of it in my Lyr 3.

And Welcome to your new addiction!!


----------



## tafens

The CV181-Z is one of the best sounding tubes I’ve tried in my Lyr3, very spacious and clear in my ears.

But, I got a little concerned when I realised that it draws 0.9 amps of heater current, as that’s 50% more than the 0.6 amps of a 6SN7. The Lyr3 seems to handle it without issue, it doesn’t get any hotter than usual anywhere as far as I could feel. Though the tube itself actually felt like it did not get as hot as a regular 6SN7 usually does.

Does anyone know if the Lyr3’s heater circuit can handle the 0.9 amps that the tube wants for long term usage?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Jun 25, 2021)

The ShuGuang and Psvane CV-181Z are not a true CV-181 and do not present a higher current draw.  They are fully 6SN7GT compatible.  A true NOS CV-181 does require a higher current draw, however these are not really CV-181s.  Unfortunately, both MFGs chose to refer to them as CV-181s for nostalgic marketing purposes and this has created quite a bit of confusion as to their compatibility with 6SN7-based amps.

BTW -- There was a disclaimer at Grant Fidelity assuring folks that the Psvane CV181Z was fully 6SN7GT compatible.  While Grant Fidelity was a large reseller of the Psvane CV-181Zs, they are no longer selling them due to the MFG attempting to prevent them from selling another Chinese tube --  Linlai.  They may have removed all references to Psvane.  I believe Linlai site states their CV-181Z are also electrically compatible w/ 6SN7.


----------



## tafens

Ripper2860 said:


> The ShuYuang and Psvane CV-181Z are not a true CV-181 and do not present a higher current draw. They are fully 6SN7GT compatible. A true NOS CV-181 does require a higher current draw, however these are not really CV-181s. Unfortunately, both MFGs chose to refer to them as CV-181s for nostalgic marketing purposes and this has created quite a bit of confusion as to their compatibility with 6SN7-based amps.


Thanks for the clarification! Seems my apparently not so strong google-fu was misleading me. Great, I’m currently having the Psvane CV181-TII in the Lyr3, and I’ll do some more listening with that, but as it stands in comparison the Shuguang CV181-Z is going back in soon.



Ripper2860 said:


> BTW -- There was a disclaimer at Grant Fidelity assuring folks that the Psvane CV181Z was fully 6SN7GT compatible. While Grant Fidelity was a large reseller of the Psvane CV-181Zs, they are no longer selling them due to the MFG attempting to prevent them from selling another Chinese tube -- Linlai. They may have removed all references to Psvane. I believe Linlai site states their CV-181Z are also electrically compatible w/ 6SN7 as well.


It’s a shame that they (Psvane) are acting like that. The full disclosure is up on Grant Fidelity’s site and on reading that I completely understand and fully support them kicking every single Psvane tube out of their store.

Fortunately, Shuguang and Psvane are not the same brand, but unfortunately, GF don’t seem to sell Shuguang either.


----------



## adydula

tafens said:


> The CV181-Z is one of the best sounding tubes I’ve tried in my Lyr3, very spacious and clear in my ears.
> 
> But, I got a little concerned when I realised that it draws 0.9 amps of heater current, as that’s 50% more than the 0.6 amps of a 6SN7. The Lyr3 seems to handle it without issue, it doesn’t get any hotter than usual anywhere as far as I could feel. Though the tube itself actually felt like it did not get as hot as a regular 6SN7 usually does.
> 
> Does anyone know if the Lyr3’s heater circuit can handle the 0.9 amps that the tube wants for long term usage?


Send a note to Schiit.


----------



## bachatum (Jul 4, 2021)

So I have a CTH with a Gold Lion 6922 and when comparing against the Lyr 3 & Tung-sol 6sn7gtb the Lyr seems to be lacking in sound stage and dimensionality that the CTH appears to have. I am feeding them with the same source (loxjie d30) on a splitter and volume matched. Sure the CTH doesn't sound as neuteral, it reminds me of comparing a record to cd. Some frequencies are slightly imbalanced on that CTH but it has that pop. Whereas on the Lyr, sure it doesn't sound bad and it sounds generally good but its sort of meh. Not sure if anyone else here has experience with the CTH & the Lyr3. I'm curious to find out if rolling tubes will be a waste of time and money on the Lyr and whether my observations are just the character differences between the amps, tubes, or a bit of both. 
Lyr 3 seems to be more technically refined where its quieter, tighter bass but the sound is "up front" and somewhat dry and lacks the wetness, clarity, vastness and 3d sound stage I'm getting from the CTH. I've confirmed this with different headphones on the single ended output of both and feeding the same dac as the source. Note, when using the multibit internal dac card on the lyr3 I find the sound soundstage even worse, not to mention the tonality shift, where its really just a wall of sound and compressed sounding in comparison to the external dac (Loxjie d30).


----------



## tafens

bachatum said:


> So I have a CTH with a Gold Lion 6922 and when comparing against the Lyr 3 & Tung-sol 6sn7gtb the Lyr seems to be lacking in sound stage and dimensionality that the CTH appears to have. I am feeding them with the same source (loxjie d30) on a splitter and volume matched. Sure the CTH doesn't sound as neuteral, it reminds me of comparing a record to cd. Some frequencies are slightly imbalanced on that CTH but it has that pop. Whereas on the Lyr, sure it doesn't sound bad and it sounds generally good but its sort of meh. Not sure if anyone else here has experience with the CTH & the Lyr3. I'm curious to find out if rolling tubes will be a waste of time and money on the Lyr and whether my observations are just the character differences between the amps, tubes, or a bit of both.
> Lyr 3 seems to be more technically refined where its quieter, tighter bass but the sound is "up front" and somewhat dry and lacks the wetness, clarity, vastness and 3d sound stage I'm getting from the CTH. I've confirmed this with different headphones on the single ended output of both and feeding the same dac as the source. Note, when using the multibit internal dac card on the lyr3 I find the sound soundstage even worse, not to mention the tonality shift, where its really just a wall of sound and compressed sounding in comparison to the external dac (Loxjie d30).


I’d say the differences in sound probably can be attributed to both the amps themselves and the tubes.

The Lyr3 responds very well to tube rolling in my experience; I have just concluded a small tube journey with my Lyr3, the Psvane CV181-TII, the Shuguang CV181-Z and the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB where I found that the new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB still is the tube I like the best (of the ones I’ve tried). They all had their good and bad traits but the final choice came down to which one gives the most enjoyment of the music. Sure, the CV181-Z had more clarity and sound stage - but at the cost of dynamics/PRaT and some bass. The CV181-TII had more bass but pushed the mids a bit too forward without really giving any other benefit. Switching around between them I realised that the Tung-Sol made me want to put on just another track before going to bed, and then just one more, and.. so here I am. Ideally I’d like to find a tube that had all the good things from of all of them but none of the drawbacks  

I have no experience with the Loxjie, but I can say that the Bifrost2 DAC made a big difference to the sound compared to the internal multibit DAC card in the Lyr3, among other things perhaps most notably it improved the clarity, detail and sound stage.

It’s hard to say how much of the sonic differences you hear between the CTH/GL 6922 and Lyr3/TS 6SN7GTB are from the tubes and amps themselves, but the 6922 and 6SN7 are electrically compatible with each other, so I’d encourage you to try to swap them over and listen what the Lyr3 can do with the Gold Lion and vice versa. You’ll just need an adapter and probably a riser/socket saver if the socket in the amp is recessed into the chassis. There are good 6922 and 6SN7 socket savers/risers and both 6922 to 6SN7 and 6SN7 to 6922 adapters available at various tube vendors and on eBay.


----------



## DTgill

Look what came in the mail today! 

I'm keeping 4 a friend of mine is going to test the rest he's going to keep a couple then the rest off to eBay...


----------



## DTgill (Jul 6, 2021)

That GM Delco 6SN7GTA is the bomb, I think that tube alone was worth the price of admission to this tube show!

Pretty close to ear sex porn


----------



## jonathan c

DTgill said:


> Look what came in the mail today!
> 
> I'm keeping 4 a friend of mine is going to test the rest he's going to keep a couple then the rest off to eBay...





DTgill said:


> Look what came in the mail today!
> 
> I'm keeping 4 a friend of mine is going to test the rest he's going to keep a couple then the rest off to eBay...


Some interesting tubes…sale proceeds could go towards purchase of CBS/Hytron 5692s….( ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ 6SN7 type)


----------



## DTgill (Jul 7, 2021)

jonathan c said:


> Some interesting tubes…sale proceeds could go towards purchase of CBS/Hytron 5692s….( ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ 6SN7 type)


I purchased a modded Yaquin SC-CD3 a year or two ago, and it came with a set of those tubes. I just pulled one out of my Lyr when the new tubes came in.


----------



## DTgill

I just received a 1951 Sylvania 6SN7GT (bad boy) tube, Oh' my goodness! It sounds so good!
Very clear, lovely bass, lush midrange, treble that kills all the other tubes I have, the sound stage is perfect for me.
"Are those angels singing in my ears?"
My Ananda cans sound so good I don't want to take them off... I am going to sell off my other tubes and buy one more of these for backup.

Listening to The Doors Moonlight drive right now 

"Hi my name is Don and I'm a tube addict."


----------



## Ripper2860

Welcome to your new addiction, Don.  😄


----------



## LoryWiv

DTgill said:


> I just received a 1951 Sylvania 6SN7GT (bad boy) tube, Oh' my goodness! It sounds so good!
> Very clear, lovely bass, lush midrange, treble that kills all the other tubes I have, the sound stage is perfect for me.
> "Are those angels singing in my ears?"
> My Ananda cans sound so good I don't want to take them off... I am going to sell off my other tubes and buy one more of these for backup.
> ...


Nice Don! Could you post a picture as I am still trying to learn what constitutes a bad boy versus other Sylvania 6SN7's of similar vintage.

Enjoy!


----------



## DTgill

LoryWiv said:


> Nice Don! Could you post a picture as I am still trying to learn what constitutes a bad boy versus other Sylvania 6SN7's of similar vintage.
> 
> Enjoy!


I have the tube mounted in a tube saver.


----------



## LoryWiv

DTgill said:


> I have the tube mounted in a tube saver.


Beautiful photos of a stellar tube. Thank you!


----------



## Tralfaz

A quick public service announcement: Remember that tubes age and deteriorate over time as they are used.  If things aren't sounding quite as awesome as your remember (or think you remember) consider replacing your tube with a fresh one, especially if you can't recall how long you've been using your current tube.  I just did this and am stunned by the sonic improvement.

This message has been brought to you by the Westinghouse Reliatron 6SN7 now installed in my Lyr 3.


----------



## JohnBal

Loving my Brimar CV455 12at7 with adapter. Best I have ever heard my amp sound. Full spectrum sound. Bass, midrange and treble are all outstanding. Black background. Quietest tube I have experienced allowing details to emerge in my music that have not been noticed before. Soundstage is broad and deep. Excellent all around tube for not a lot of money compared to the top 6SN7's.


----------



## gKalkin

Looked through some of the top results in the search for socket saver but my apologies if this has been answered before.

I have a socket saver but the tubes fit so tightly in it that it pulls out with the tube when I go to switch. Am I missing something? Seems like it defeats the purpose of having a socket saver. 

Also, knowing that I'll probably be setting up an internal bias by asking this... what in the world should I be listening for?? I've switched out between 4 different tubes and I'll be damned if I hear a difference. 

Actually, maybe if anyone could point to some songs or genres in particular that they hear a difference between tubes / solid state that would be super helpful and I can listen without someone telling me exactly what to look for. Just genuinely curious.

Also, my tubes:
Tung-Sol 
RCA
Raytheon
Sylvania

Headphones:
6xx
A2C
Aeolus

Thanks!


----------



## ardbeg1975 (Jul 20, 2021)

gKalkin said:


> Looked through some of the top results in the search for socket saver but my apologies if this has been answered before.
> 
> I have a socket saver but the tubes fit so tightly in it that it pulls out with the tube when I go to switch. Am I missing something? Seems like it defeats the purpose of having a socket saver.
> 
> ...


I think the key is to listen to a song or songs which you personally know very, very well. Swapping tubes and replaying the same song is suboptimal due to the delay in cool down, swap out, and warm up BUT that said different tubes will typically accentuate different aspects of sound, perhaps widening soundstage, bringing mids more forward or back, or smoothing out the harshness in high treble (cymbal crashes for example). It depends on the tube, the headphone. the amp, and the song but the key is to start again with a song you know from many, many listens and try to pick out any subtle changes.

If after that exercise, you aren’t hearing much of a difference that’s ok too. The Tung-Sols are good. I personally like the Shuguang CV181-Z Treasure and the Sophia Electric Blue Glass tubes on the Lyr3 but that is partially because I like the sound and partially because they look really cool.


----------



## adydula

After weeks of getting a set of Final Audio B8000 Pros...with a PassLabs HPA1, Whammy, Never RHNP amps I fired up my Lyr 3 with a 1940's 6SN7GT WW2 NOS tube!

Very happy with the sound and performance....a 10/10. 

The Lyr 3 has enough power to really light these headphones up, very, very well..

Ah Life is good!!

Alex


----------



## adydula

gKalkin said:


> Looked through some of the top results in the search for socket saver but my apologies if this has been answered before.
> 
> I have a socket saver but the tubes fit so tightly in it that it pulls out with the tube when I go to switch. Am I missing something? Seems like it defeats the purpose of having a socket saver.
> 
> ...


Rock the tube in the socket saver gently side to side and it will come out slowly......just use a little patience...
Alex


----------



## Zachik

adydula said:


> After weeks of getting a set of Final Audio B8000 Pros...with a PassLabs HPA1, Whammy, *Never *RHNP amps I fired up my Lyr 3 with a 1940's 6SN7GT WW2 NOS tube!
> Very happy with the sound and performance....a 10/10.


Never say never... 

Joking aside, Are you saying the Lyr3 sounds better than the Passlabs HPA-1 ???


----------



## adydula (Jul 22, 2021)

Zachik said:


> Never say never...
> 
> Joking aside, Are you saying the Lyr3 sounds better than the Passlabs HPA-1 ???


I am saying it sounds very very good.
As does the other amps....

I have stopped trying to say one is better than the other.....
My search for audio nirvana in amp land is over....lol

Its a matter of value and preference and some exploration...

I will say there are many amps that will make you smile alot, and the Lyr 3, RHNP, Whammy, Lyr3, Jot 1/2, and a host of others I have...make me smile as well..

There are no absolutes here...

:>)
Alex

Name your poison!


















Many amps are no longer in house....50+ over the past few years....Most are pretty decent only a few
"stinkers!!"

I will say that if you got a Schiit Lyr 3, a Bifrost 2 and a set of D8000 Pros....you could be VERY happy.


----------



## adydula

Zachik said:


> Never say never...
> 
> Joking aside, Are you saying the Lyr3 sounds better than the Passlabs HPA-1 ???


You also need to define "Better"....

:>)

Alex


----------



## Zachik

adydula said:


> You also need to define "Better"....


Good point. For me, since I do not have anything the Lyr3 cannot drive well - "better" would mean:
More musical AND/OR better detail retrieval AND/OR <fill in the blank>.


----------



## adydula

Zachik said:


> Good point. For me, since I do not have anything the Lyr3 cannot drive well - "better" would mean:
> More musical AND/OR better detail retrieval AND/OR <fill in the blank>.


Agree and here is the "nut" here....this definition is very, very subjective and varies all over the place.
Our "brains" and how we humans hear coupled with our preferences, moods and amount of alcohol consumed makes this
definition a moving target !


----------



## Zachik

adydula said:


> Agree and here is the "nut" here...*.this definition is very, very subjective and varies all over the place*.


I agree. To a point. Let me explain (sticking to Schiit products for the sake of the following explanation): 
* Lyr 3 vs. Jot - some would prefer the Jot, others prefer the Lyr. Very subjective, and I think it would be hard to make the case of one is better than the other.
* Lyr 3 vs. Vali 2 - I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt anyone would prefer the Vali 2 based on sound only. Smaller? yes. Cheaper? yes. Better? I doubt anyone would claim that...


----------



## adydula

Beauty is in the "ear" of the listener and the size of their wallet.....


----------



## Bob Ley

Ripper2860 said:


> Nice!!  I have one and think very highly of it in my Lyr 3.
> 
> And Welcome to your new addiction!!


Where are you all getting the CV181-Z ShuGuang Treasures? I only see them in pairs. Do any of you want to sell one of them?


----------



## DTgill

Bob Ley said:


> Where are you all getting the CV181-Z ShuGuang Treasures? I only see them in pairs. Do any of you want to sell one of them?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/223139362664?var=522735380196


----------



## Bob Ley

DTgill said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/223139362664?var=522735380196


Thanks, that's where you bought yours?


----------



## DTgill

Bob Ley said:


> Thanks, that's where you bought yours?


Yep took about two weeks


----------



## Bob Ley

nasty nate said:


> Treasure Globe just arrived  - I'll post my impressions compared to the Tung Sol and the JJ soon...


Where did you buy this from and how much was it?


----------



## Bob Ley

I just ordered these 2 tubes: any comments?




I have this tight now 



but from what I'm reading, the top 2 are more high end sounding?


----------



## jonathan c (Aug 16, 2021)

Bob Ley said:


> I just ordered these 2 tubes: any comments?
> 
> I have this tight now
> 
> but from what I'm reading, the top 2 are more high end sounding?


~ What is “high end” sound to you? It can’t be ascertained by reading.
~ I have a pair of the Psvane CV181: to my ears, not bad as “new production” tubes. I have _heard_ more coherent, more realistic sound from “new old stock” such as CBS/Hytron 5692 (a 6SN7 type).


----------



## adydula (Aug 17, 2021)

Selling my tubes....listed in the classifieds!





PM me if interested.
Alex


----------



## nasty nate

Bob Ley said:


> Where did you buy this from and how much was it?



I get them from here - I've purchased 3 so far because I love the way they sound. Good to have backups  Price is roughly $200 depending on tax, shipping, etc


----------



## DTgill (Aug 20, 2021)

nasty nate said:


> I get them from here - I've purchased 3 so far because I love the way they sound. Good to have backups  Price is roughly $200 depending on tax, shipping, etc


Why pay 200 for a tube when you can get it for $59.45 from Here ?
Just asking why, not trying to start a fight.
I do see that one has a gold base the other one has white? 
I wonder what the difference is?


----------



## Bob Ley

DTgill said:


> Why pay 200 for a tube when you can get it for $59.45 from Here ?
> Just asking why, not trying to start a fight.
> I do see that one has a gold base the other one has white?
> I wonder what the difference is?


I just got mine delivered from Viva Tubes yesterday and popped it in. Got a socket saver too, was tight getting everything in right


----------



## DTgill

Bob Ley said:


> I just got mine delivered from Viva Tubes yesterday and popped it in. Got a socket saver too, was tight getting everything in right


How do they sound? 
I just ordered one today from Viva tubes.


----------



## Odin412

DTgill said:


> How do they sound?
> I just ordered one today from Viva tubes.


Cool looking tube! I just ordered one as well.


----------



## Bob Ley

DTgill said:


> How do they sound?
> I just ordered one today from Viva tubes.


I'm so bad at describing sounds and all the clinical stuff. Coming from the New Tung Sol, it sounded immediately cleaner but maybe less full than the Tung Sol. Keep in mind, the Tung Sol has been going about a week.


----------



## j0val

Just found this thread.

Does anyone with Empyreans have a tube recommendation? So far, I’ve just been using the stock JJs and have a Shuguang Treasure on the way.


----------



## cgb3

DTgill said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/223139362664?var=522735380196


Thanks, just ordered.


----------



## PoloJCP

Bob Ley said:


> I'm so bad at describing sounds and all the clinical stuff. Coming from the New Tung Sol, it sounded immediately cleaner but maybe less full than the Tung Sol. Keep in mind, the Tung Sol has been going about a week.


I feel the same way. I think tube rolling is very personal. I probably going to get a lot of heat for saying that I personally really like the new Tung-Sol, even more so than many of my NOS, including the USA Tung-Sol and Sylvania VT-231.


----------



## tafens

PoloJCP said:


> I feel the same way. I think tube rolling is very personal. I probably going to get a lot of heat for saying that I personally really like the new Tung-Sol, even more so than many of my NOS, including the USA Tung-Sol and Sylvania VT-231.


I really like the TS too, it’s not the best at everything but among the other new production and NOS tubes I’ve tried it’s the one that gives me the most enjoyment overall.
Plus, it’s quite affordable and readily available.


----------



## FLTWS

tafens said:


> I really like the TS too, it’s not the best at everything but among the other new production and NOS tubes I’ve tried it’s the one that gives me the most enjoyment overall.
> Plus, it’s quite affordable and readily available.


The new production TS EL-34's are working very well in my PrimaLuna EVO400, had them in for several weeks and feel no urge to roll'em out.


----------



## DTgill

Look at what the mail lady dropped off today a new sexy tube...


----------



## Odin412

DTgill said:


> Look at what the mail lady dropped off today a new sexy tube...


Very nice! I just received mine and started listening to it - sounds good so far.


----------



## j0val (Sep 3, 2021)

just got the Shug Treasure in. Still waiting for my tube saver.

Edit: tube saver came in. Feels like I have to force the Shug in pretty strongly. Any advice?

Edit 2: just had to rock back and forth


----------



## DTgill

j0val said:


> just got the Shug Treasure in. Still waiting for my tube saver.
> 
> Edit: tube saver came in. Feels like I have to force the Shug in pretty strongly. Any advice?
> 
> Edit 2: just had to rock back and forth


I just place the tube saver in my let palm and cover the top with my right and push the tube down into it, takes some pressure, but if you go straight down it will slide in and all will be right.


----------



## j0val

DTgill said:


> I just place the tube saver in my let palm and cover the top with my right and push the tube down into it, takes some pressure, but if you go straight down it will slide in and all will be right.



Thanks. I was too afraid to break something if I went straight down. Ended up in a similar position as you mentioned, but rocked back and forth while pushing down. It was a very tight fit.


----------



## DTgill

j0val said:


> Thanks. I was too afraid to break something if I went straight down. Ended up in a similar position as you mentioned, but rocked back and forth while pushing down. It was a very tight fit.


Take it slow and easy, don't rush and it'll slide in...


----------



## Markus1249

I'm relatively new to this tube rolling thing, but needless to say, I am enjoying it. I can definitely tell the difference in the sound signature from tube to tube. Though some tubes sound very similar, others sound quite different. I absolutely believe everyone has their own preference when it comes to the type of sound they're looking for. This is where tube rolling shines. I'm using the Lyr3, Lokius, and Modius and appreciate the sound that they're producing.


----------



## bcowen (Sep 4, 2021)

Markus1249 said:


> I'm relatively new to this tube rolling thing, but needless to say, I am enjoying it. I can definitely tell the difference in the sound signature from tube to tube. Though some tubes sound very similar, others sound quite different. *I absolutely believe everyone has their own preference when it comes to the type of sound they're looking for.* This is where tube rolling shines. I'm using the Lyr3, Lokius, and Modius and appreciate the sound that they're producing.


And you're absolutely right.    What may be a holy grail tube for me may be 'meh' for you, and vice versa. As well, component synergy is a major factor....and not just the amp, but the headphones in play too. Recommendations from other people are a great source for ideas and info, but _not_ definitive in any form or fashion.


----------



## Ripper2860

The only definitive in tube rolling is that anything @bcowen recommends is definitely not 'holy grail'.  😜


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> The only definitive in tube rolling is that anything @bcowen recommends is definitely not 'holy grail'.  😜


I only recommend tubes I hate 'cause that increases availability of the tubes I like.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 4, 2021)

I know you want us to believe you're kidding.   😀


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> I know you want us to believe you're kidding.   😀


Audio is serious stuff and I never kid around.  You should know that by now.  Or do I?


----------



## Zachik

Markus1249 said:


> I'm relatively new to this tube rolling thing, but needless to say, I am enjoying it. I can definitely tell the difference in the sound signature from tube to tube. Though some tubes sound very similar, others sound quite different. I absolutely believe everyone has their own preference when it comes to the type of sound they're looking for. This is where tube rolling shines. I'm using the Lyr3, Lokius, and Modius and appreciate the sound that they're producing.


Love the tube holder thingy. Did you make it or buy it?


----------



## Markus1249

Zachik said:


> Love the tube holder thingy. Did you make it or buy it?


I made them using aircraft grade aluminum, cut them to size. Milled them square...bent them...put the holes in them, then brushed them out! It takes a little work, maybe an hour or so. But, they sure come in handy to keep your favorite tubes readily available.


----------



## bcowen

Markus1249 said:


> I made them using aircraft grade aluminum, cut them to size. Milled them square...bent them...put the holes in them, then brushed them out! It takes a little work, maybe an hour or so. But, they sure come in handy to keep your favorite tubes readily available.


That sounds like work.  I just keep mine like this:
(j/k of course...yours looks awesome!)


----------



## DTgill (Sep 4, 2021)

bcowen said:


> That sounds like work.  I just keep mine like this:
> (j/k of course...yours looks awesome!)


----------



## DTgill (Sep 4, 2021)

Awesome man!
That's got my 30 6SN7 tubes beat


----------



## cgb3 (Sep 4, 2021)

j0val said:


> just got the Shug Treasure in. Still waiting for my tube saver.
> 
> Edit: tube saver came in. Feels like I have to force the Shug in pretty strongly. Any advice?
> 
> Edit 2: just had to rock back and forth


If you don't already have some... purchase dielectric grease, the KY jelly for electronics (just kidding, it's mainly for moisture mitigation).

It does make insertion/removal easier. That's important when working with cheap parts (such as some socket savers).

I use this, although any dielectric grease will do. I bought from Amazon, but any auto parts store should carry this. I lay out about a .5 inch on a piece of paper, and use a cotton swab on a stick (Q tip) to anoint the pins and central post.


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> That sounds like work.  I just keep mine like this:
> (j/k of course...yours looks awesome!)


This photo gives me agita ...


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> That sounds like work.  I just keep mine like this:
> (j/k of course...yours looks awesome!)


Obviously fake... @bcowen stash consists of 90% tubes by GE


----------



## Ripper2860

Oops.  Wrong thread.


----------



## Progrocker111

Inbetween i have tried many NOS WWII tubes, some newer too, including late 70s MELZ 1578. The clear winner in my Lyr 3 - Hifiman Arya combo is the metal base Sylvania 6SN7W from january 1945. 

This tube simply has it all - incredible detail and musicality merged in one, big soundstage, excellent dynamics, tight and clear bass with great slam and 3D mids with bell-like highs. No hearing fatigue even after many hours of listening on loud volumes. I really recommend these, even when they are expensive, the Lyr 3 sounds like a whole new amplifier now.


----------



## Odin412

My newly arrived Linlai 6SN7 awaiting listening.


----------



## cgb3 (Sep 21, 2021)

DTgill said:


> Why pay 200 for a tube when you can get it for $59.45 from Here ?
> Just asking why, not trying to start a fight.
> I do see that one has a gold base the other one has white?
> I wonder what the difference is?


Thanks again!!!

You gave me a great link (ebay) for the https://www.ebay.com/itm/223139362664?var=522735380196 ($62 at my time of purchase).

I have a good selection of the acknowledged great 6SN7, and military eq. NOS American tubes. I hate to admit the Chinese tube (CV181-Z ShuGuang Treasures) is my standard tube now. Exquisite. By the way, received (NC US) from China in 1 week.

I ordered the Linlai from your link. Looking forward to a new tube.


----------



## Odin412

After having tried the new Psvane 'tennis ball' and the Linlai tubes I have to say that I much prefer the Psvane tube. To my ears it has an open, spacious midrange that I find really captivating plus a smooth, extended treble. The Linlai has (again, to my ears) a slightly sharp edge to its treble that I couldn't quite get comfortable with. The Psvane is a lot cheaper as well, so in this case cheaper = better. YMMV, as always.


----------



## cgb3

Odin412 said:


> After having tried the new Psvane 'tennis ball' and the Linlai tubes I have to say that I much prefer the Psvane tube. To my ears it has an open, spacious midrange that I find really captivating plus a smooth, extended treble. The Linlai has (again, to my ears) a slightly sharp edge to its treble that I couldn't quite get comfortable with. The Psvane is a lot cheaper as well, so in this case cheaper = better. YMMV, as always.


I like the "tennis ball". It's the tube installed in my Lyr 3, and will remain so until Thanksgiving. I've decided to change to quarterly tube changes (rather than spur of the moment). With 6+ hrs. a day listening, a valve should be properly seasoned after ~500 hours.

This should be rolling in the last of Oct. http://www.hifipartstore.com/?product=psvane-cv181-t-mkii-classic-grade.


----------



## jonathan c

cgb3 said:


> I've decided to change to quarterly tube changes (rather than spur of the moment).


Any adjustments in leap years?


----------



## DTgill

jonathan c said:


> Any adjustments in leap years?


----------



## Odin412

cgb3 said:


> I like the "tennis ball". It's the tube installed in my Lyr 3, and will remain so until Thanksgiving. I've decided to change to quarterly tube changes (rather than spur of the moment). With 6+ hrs. a day listening, a valve should be properly seasoned after ~500 hours.
> 
> This should be rolling in the last of Oct. http://www.hifipartstore.com/?product=psvane-cv181-t-mkii-classic-grade.


That is a wonderful tube - I highly recommend it.


----------



## Guinibee

Just wondering, I'm seeing a lot of information about the PSVANE Tennis ball and I bought it from Vivatubes.  How did you all fit it into your Lyr 3?  Mine does not fit, it's extremely tight and I worry about pushing it too far in.


----------



## DTgill

Guinibee said:


> Just wondering, I'm seeing a lot of information about the PSVANE Tennis ball and I bought it from Vivatubes.  How did you all fit it into your Lyr 3?  Mine does not fit, it's extremely tight and I worry about pushing it too far in.


You want a 6SN7 tube saver


----------



## tafens

Guinibee said:


> Just wondering, I'm seeing a lot of information about the PSVANE Tennis ball and I bought it from Vivatubes.  How did you all fit it into your Lyr 3?  Mine does not fit, it's extremely tight and I worry about pushing it too far in.


I use a 6SN7 socket saver / riser, something like this:


----------



## Guinibee

tafens said:


> I use a 6SN7 socket saver / riser, something like this:


Wow thank you! I'll try this, I hope I didn't break the tube!


----------



## jonathan c

Ready for launch…systems are go…


----------



## jonathan c

Western Pennsylvania, we have a problem for Schiit competitors…


----------



## DTgill

jonathan c said:


> Ready for launch…systems are go…


Nice


----------



## jonathan c

~ The introductory tube in the Lyr III is a Sylvania “chrome top” 6SN7-GTA (1955). Cohesive; full-toned throughout the frequency range; excellent detail and ambience recovery. 
~ I already like the idea / prospects of a one tube ‘roll’ 😄.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> ~ The introductory tube in the Lyr III is a Sylvania “chrome top” 6SN7-GTA (1955). Cohesive; full-toned throughout the frequency range; excellent detail and ambience recovery.
> ~ I already like the idea / prospects of a one tube ‘roll’ 😄.


Frankie does a nice job in the Lyr 3...


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 6, 2021)

bcowen said:


> Frankie does a nice job in the Lyr 3...


…and does not need to go to Hollywood for it…😜…plus Woo Audio makes_ very nice _7N7 -> 6SN7 adapters…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …and does not need to go to Hollywood for it…😜…plus Woo Audio makes_ very nice _7N7 -> 6SN7 adapters…


Frankie never actually made it to Hollywood...he spent too much time relaxing.


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> Frankie never actually made it to Hollywood...he spent too much time relaxing.


After all, the full lyric is "Relax. don't do it..."  Wish I could apply that to my gear and tube roll upgraditis, but, NAH!


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> After all, the full lyric is "Relax. don't do it..."  Wish I could apply that to my gear and tube roll upgraditis, but, NAH!


----------



## jonathan c

Launch, successful…Lyr refueling…


----------



## DTgill

jonathan c said:


> Launch, successful…Lyr refueling…


----------



## jonathan c

Not a tube this time…even Lyr III gets a SR Purple fuse…


----------



## jonathan c

👍👍


----------



## jonathan c

One thing leads to another….


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> One thing leads to another….


Nice.

Hey, wanna have some fun? Replace the wood block it's sitting on with a chunk of Sorbothane. Then we can sit back and wait for the sound of @bcowen's head exploding


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Nice.
> 
> Hey, wanna have some fun? Replace the wood block it's sitting on with a chunk of Sorbothane. Then we can sit back and wait for the sound of @bcowen's head exploding


That would be a really mean thing to do.....to the Lyr 3.    

But I'm surprised @jonathan c is using an oak board since he knows maple clearly sounds better.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That would be a really mean thing to do.....to the Lyr 3.
> 
> But I'm surprised @jonathan c is using an oak board since he knows maple clearly sounds better.


Only with sideways h/p/a such as bcowen’s ‘Incubus’…


----------



## MacMan31

I cannot seem to find the "Impressions" thread for this amp. So if it's okay I'm going to ask this here. So I have the Valhalla II and I'm going to be picking up an Asgard 3 today as I have been curious about that amp. But the Lyr 3 seems to be the "best of both worlds". The Bifrost II is my DAC. I really like tubes because I can tweak the sound to my liking but also cause of how they look. Would a Lyr 3 really be the "best of both worlds" to allow for tube flavour and to play the widest variety of headphones? Also has anyone used the Lyr 3 or something like it as a preamp for a two channel stereo setup?


----------



## MacMan31

In early pages of this thread some people were mentioning the Ken Rad VT231. I assume this is it here? https://tubedepot.com/products/kenrad-vt231-6sn7gt-black-glass


----------



## FLTWS

It looks like it and I have two I bought several years back.
Hard to believe how prices have skyrocketed on these NOS tubes just over the past 3 to 4 years. 
Even back then I thought I was being extravagant at less than half this price.


----------



## MacMan31

FLTWS said:


> It looks like it and I have two I bought several years back.
> Hard to believe how prices have skyrocketed on these NOS tubes just over the past 3 to 4 years.
> Even back then I thought I was being extravagant at less than half this price.



Well this "pandemic" has not done any favours as the cost of everything has gone up. Plus I'm sure that price is in US dollars so it would be even more expensive for me here in Canada. In any case I'm wondering if the Lyr 3 is worth getting over my Asgard 3 and Valhalla II.


----------



## Wheezy

Psvane 6SN7-SE tennis ball


----------



## j0val

Wheezy said:


> Psvane 6SN7-SE tennis ball


Nice. What are your impressions on how it sounds with your Grados? I have a similar setup.


----------



## inmytaxi (Nov 27, 2021)

MacMan31 said:


> Well this "pandemic" has not done any favours as the cost of everything has gone up. Plus I'm sure that price is in US dollars so it would be even more expensive for me here in Canada. In any case I'm wondering if the Lyr 3 is worth getting over my Asgard 3 and Valhalla II.


I recommend the Jot 2 over the Lyr 3. It's the best 'tube' to roll into the Lyr 3 if you will. As preamps the hyrbrids are great, but kinda like adding a couple Cerwin Vega's into the system. I haven't used the Jot 2 as a preamp with my speakers, but the hybrids just seem to rock harder than neutral.


----------



## Odin412

Wheezy said:


> Psvane 6SN7-SE tennis ball


That is a great tube! I'm using it in my Lyr 3 right now.


----------



## Wheezy

j0val said:


> Nice. What are your impressions on how it sounds with your Grados? I have a similar setup.


There is a slight hiss with this tube that isn't present with the stock tube.  It sounds good otherwise.  I don't know if that's something that can improve with burn in or not.  I'm going to try a Shuguang Treasure CV181Z next.


----------



## j0val (Nov 27, 2021)

Wheezy said:


> There is a slight hiss with this tube that isn't present with the stock tube.  It sounds good otherwise.  I don't know if that's something that can improve with burn in or not.  I'm going to try a Shuguang Treasure CV181Z next.


I think I’ve read about the hiss going away after a good amount of hours. Personally, I’ve never experienced that.

I’ve actually had the Shuguang Treasure for a couple months now. It actually sounds better than the stock tubes with my Grados and Genelec monitors. I’m really enjoying it. Plus, it looks cool (just doesn’t have that tube glow).


----------



## MacMan31

inmytaxi said:


> I recommend the Jot 2 over the Lyr 3. It's the best 'tube' to roll into the Lyr 3 if you will. As preamps the hyrbrids are great, but kinda like adding a couple Cerwin Vega's into the system. I haven't used the Jot 2 as a preamp with my speakers, but the hybrids just seem to rock harder than neutral.



Are you saying to use the Jot 2 as a preamp into the Lyr 3?


----------



## inmytaxi (Nov 28, 2021)

MacMan31 said:


> Are you saying to use the Jot 2 as a preamp into the Lyr 3?


No, I'm saying the Jot is as good as any tube you can roll into the Lyr, so if you're thinking of tube rolling and buying a Lyr, hear a Jot. Instead. Not in addition. YMMV


----------



## inmytaxi

You don't wish you had a book  or something to get hunder the Loki? Or not an issue?

I always wondered what those sound like. Do the treasure tubes just sound cleaner, or are they more tubey and euphonic?  Might be kinda cool to have one as a syrupy preamp?


----------



## inmytaxi

MacMan31 said:


> Well this "pandemic" has not done any favours as the cost of everything has gone up. Plus I'm sure that price is in US dollars so it would be even more expensive for me here in Canada. In any case I'm wondering if the Lyr 3 is worth getting over my Asgard 3 and Valhalla II.


With your headphones you should get something like a Pendant or the upcoming Schiit 10 tube, part supplies allowing? I don't think a Lyr 3 or a Jot 2 is going to be a worthwhile upgrade considering you have pretty good gear already.


----------



## MacMan31

inmytaxi said:


> No, I'm saying the Jot is as good as any tube you can roll into the Lyr, so if you're thinking of tube rolling and buying a Lyr, hear a Jot. Instead. Not in addition. YMMV



Well going on reviews I have seen I'm under the impression that the Jot 2 is a neutral sounding amp. I prefer a more "warm" or "analog" sound.


----------



## inmytaxi (Nov 28, 2021)

Neutral?

Do I hear rubber burning?

JOT! He didn't mean it!

Warm you def want tubes!


----------



## jamesofla80

Anyone using a LCD-XC 2021. I just bought one and am trying to find a good linear tube to pair it with. Currently running the PSVane 6SN7 (tennis ball). But wanted to see if anyone has any other recommendations for a good linear neutral tube.


----------



## DTgill

jamesofla80 said:


> Anyone using a LCD-XC 2021. I just bought one and am trying to find a good linear tube to pair it with. Currently running the PSVane 6SN7 (tennis ball). But wanted to see if anyone has any other recommendations for a good linear neutral tube.


You might want to try one of these beauties... 5692 goodness


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 29, 2021)

.


----------



## jamesofla80

DTgill said:


> You might want to try one of these beauties... 5692 goodness


Wow reading up on it now. Looks like a real solid choice, thanks. Though $200+ for a tube is a bit steep, cheaper than a new amp


----------



## Wheezy

j0val said:


> I’ve actually had the Shuguang Treasure for a couple months now. It actually sounds better than the stock tubes with my Grados and Genelec monitors. I’m really enjoying it. Plus, it looks cool (just doesn’t have that tube glow).


I got my Shuguang Treasure tube in, sounding great so far.

This may be a dumb question but is there a good technique to removing the tube and leaving the tube saver behind?


----------



## DTgill

Wheezy said:


> This may be a dumb question but is there a good technique to removing the tube and leaving the tube saver behind?


When I use mine, I can never get it to stay behind.


----------



## j0val

Wheezy said:


> I got my Shuguang Treasure tube in, sounding great so far.
> 
> This may be a dumb question but is there a good technique to removing the tube and leaving the tube saver behind?


I’d like to know as well. My socket saver is a part of the Shug now.


----------



## bcowen

DTgill said:


> When I use mine, I can never get it to stay behind.


Then you have a true tube saver instead of a socket saver.


----------



## jonathan c

DTgill said:


> When I use mine, I can never get it to stay behind.


The socket saver is just covering the tube’s a$$…😀


----------



## DTgill

jonathan c said:


> The socket saver is just covering the tube’s a$$…😀


----------



## DTgill

bcowen said:


> Then you have a true tube saver instead of a socket saver.


----------



## Wheezy

I spoke too soon about the Shuguang Treasure tube.  It started popping disturbingly loud on the right channel.  I heard this can happen initially so I let it run for a couple hours.  I came back and have nothing but static noise on the right now.  I contacted the ebay seller and they said there's no problem, just keep burning it in.


----------



## j0val

Wheezy said:


> I spoke too soon about the Shuguang Treasure tube.  It started popping disturbingly loud on the right channel.  I heard this can happen initially so I let it run for a couple hours.  I came back and have nothing but static noise on the right now.  I contacted the ebay seller and they said there's no problem, just keep burning it in.


Strange. I didn’t have any extra audible sounds whatsoever on mine.


----------



## FLTWS

j0val said:


> Strange. I didn’t have any extra audible sounds whatsoever on mine.


No noise with mine from the start, and have had it maybe 2 years + at this point.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 30, 2021)

Ditto.  I've never had any issues with noise on mine.  If other tubes you own do not exhibit this behavior, I'm inclined to say that it is a dud tube.


----------



## eswng679

MacMan31 said:


> I cannot seem to find the "Impressions" thread for this amp. So if it's okay I'm going to ask this here. So I have the Valhalla II and I'm going to be picking up an Asgard 3 today as I have been curious about that amp. But the Lyr 3 seems to be the "best of both worlds". The Bifrost II is my DAC. I really like tubes because I can tweak the sound to my liking but also cause of how they look. Would a Lyr 3 really be the "best of both worlds" to allow for tube flavour and to play the widest variety of headphones? Also has anyone used the Lyr 3 or something like it as a preamp for a two channel stereo setup?


I believe this was the thread you're looking for: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lyr...-impression-discussion-thread.875185/page-196


----------



## Progrocker111

Settled with 1952 short black base Mullard ECC33. Really very detailed, dynamic with musical warmth, airy mids and big 3D soundstage, excellent for longer listening sessions - like a metal base Sylvania 6SN7W and grey glass RCA VT231 had a baby together. 

Interesting is, that the Lyr 3 stays cooler on the surface with this tube than with 6SN7s.


----------



## MacMan31

Progrocker111 said:


> Settled with 1952 short black base Mullard ECC33. Really very detailed, dynamic with musical warmth, airy mids and big 3D soundstage, excellent for longer listening sessions - like a metal base Sylvania 6SN7W and grey glass RCA VT231 had a baby together.
> 
> Interesting is, that the Lyr 3 stays cooler on the surface with this tube than with 6SN7s.



Where can this tube be found? right now I have a Valhalla 2 but I have been very curious to switch to the Lyr 3.


----------



## tafens

Progrocker111 said:


> Interesting is, that the Lyr 3 stays cooler on the surface with this tube than with 6SN7s.


Probably the ECC83 has a lower heater current.


----------



## Progrocker111

tafens said:


> Probably the ECC83 has a lower heater current.


ECC33


----------



## tafens

Progrocker111 said:


> ECC33


Nice catch, I mistyped 

Anyway, I looked it up; the ECC33 draws 0.4 amps of heater current while 6SN7 draws 0.6 amps.


----------



## bcowen

tafens said:


> Nice catch, I mistyped
> 
> Anyway, I looked it up; the ECC33 draws 0.4 amps of heater current while 6SN7 draws 0.6 amps.



That would make a difference to be sure.  As well, the ECC33's plate structure is much shorter than a typical 6SN7.  Less metal being heated would logically mean less heat being radiated.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That would make a difference to be sure.  As well, the ECC33's plate structure is much shorter than a typical 6SN7.  Less metal being heated would logically mean less heat being radiated.


Which makes me wonder: all else equal (never is), would the ECC33 / 6SN7 with the taller plate sound better? [ I am thinking, for example, of Lansdale ‘long-plate’ 12AU7s versus 12AU7s.]


----------



## dilbertprogrammer

My Lyr 3 will arrive later this week, as will a box of tubes.  Glad I found this thread!  I'll post my findings after I've done some rolling.  Happy listening!


----------



## dilbertprogrammer

The Lyr 3 is coming with an electro-harmonix 6SN7EH gold pin tube.

These tubes arrived yesterday (pic attached!):

JJ Electronic 6SN7
Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (New Production)
Sovtek 6SN7GT

These tubes have been ordered and should arrive next week:

1956 GE 6SN7GTB NOS
RCA 6SN7GTB
Sylvania 6SN7GTB with chrome top
Sylvania 6SN7GTB with clear glass

So (as of typing this message) I will have 8 different tubes to begin the rolling adventure (once the Lyr 3 and all of the tubes arrive)!

These tubes have been recommended:

Psvane 6SN7-SE Tennis Ball (New)
Shuguang CV181-Z (New)
KEN-RAD and Sylvania JAN CHS VT-231 spec (NOS)

I know preferences are purely subjective, but I am curious *what other 'favorite tube' recommendations you all may have*.

I listen to a little bit of everything, but really enjoy listening to garage rock, blues rock, and alt rock.


----------



## Tralfaz

dilbertprogrammer said:


> The Lyr 3 is coming with an electro-harmonix 6SN7EH gold pin tube.
> 
> These tubes arrived yesterday (pic attached!):
> 
> ...



I've been a big fan of the Westinghouse Reliatron 6SN7 in my Lyr 3.

Tube rolling is a heck of a rabbit hole to go down, it can be a lot of fun but can also get expensive which is why I settled on the Westinghouse after trying a lot of the usual suspects; no tube I tried was perfect but for me this was close enough.

Good luck!


----------



## jonathan c

dilbertprogrammer said:


> The Lyr 3 is coming with an electro-harmonix 6SN7EH gold pin tube.
> 
> These tubes arrived yesterday (pic attached!):
> 
> ...


You must get the KenRad VT-231 for the Lyr 3. Also, Tung Sol 6SN7GTB (NOS).


----------



## dilbertprogrammer

Tralfaz said:


> I've been a big fan of the Westinghouse Reliatron 6SN7 in my Lyr 3.
> 
> Tube rolling is a heck of a rabbit hole to go down, it can be a lot of fun but can also get expensive which is why I settled on the Westinghouse after trying a lot of the usual suspects; no tube I tried was perfect but for me this was close enough.
> 
> Good luck!



I will add that one to the list to check out!  Thanks for the recommendation!


----------



## jonathan c

For the Schiit Lyr 3 (or the LTA MZ3, or Woo WA6):


----------



## dilbertprogrammer

jonathan c said:


> For the Schiit Lyr 3 (or the LTA MZ3, or Woo WA6):



Added to the list - Thanks!


----------



## JohnBal

jonathan c said:


> For the Schiit Lyr 3 (or the LTA MZ3, or Woo WA6):


I'll second those Raytheon. They were my favorite until I went to the small 12at7 and/or 12au7 using adapters. I don't use 6SN7 any longer.


----------



## jonathan c

JohnBal said:


> I'll second those Raytheon. They were my favorite until I went to the small 12at7 and/or 12au7 using adapters. I don't use 6SN7 any longer.


What is neat about the Linear Tube Audio MZ3 is that it takes 6SN7* and 12AT7 without adapters.

[* 6SN7/12SN7 switch on pcb]


----------



## Progrocker111

Most favourite ones: 

1. 1952 Mullard ECC33
2. 1945 Sylvania 6SN7W metal base, 1945 RCA VT231 grey glass (both very different from each other, but equally favourite)
3. 1979 MELZ 1578


----------



## Wheezy

My tube rolling so far, I've tried:  stock Tung Sol, Sylvania 50s NOS 6SN7GTA, Psvane 6SN7SE globe, Psvane CV181-T MKII, Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z.

I tried two Psvane globes and one CV181-T and all three had noticeable, distracting hiss that was constant regardless of volume.  It didn't seem to improve with burn in.

The stock tube sounds good, sounds close to how the Asgard 3 sounds.  The NOS Sylvania is a bit of an improvement.  The Shuguang Treasure is my clear favorite so far.  It has an open lifelike sound to it.  The first tube I received from a chinese ebay seller had very loud popping that eventually led to one channel going out completely so maybe there are QC concerns.


----------



## FLTWS

Did you buy all of these various brands on ebay?


----------



## nasty nate

DTgill said:


> Why pay 200 for a tube when you can get it for $59.45 from Here ?
> Just asking why, not trying to start a fight.
> I do see that one has a gold base the other one has white?
> I wonder what the difference is?



Just now seeing this question - after doing some research into Western Electric 101Ds, and the 6SN7-SE - I learned that these Shuguang Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE are exclusive to Grant Fidelity (where I purchased them) "as it was commissioned by them and developed as a joint enterprise between them" - hence the higher price / rarity...

Sonic differences? No clue


----------



## pattont

inmytaxi said:


> No, I'm saying the Jot is as good as any tube you can roll into the Lyr, so if you're thinking of tube rolling and buying a Lyr, hear a Jot. Instead. Not in addition. YMMV


Dang - I have a Jot 2 on the way and have been looking for a tube amp. Just can’t make up my mind. Got a Bifrost 2 running into an Element 2 while I decide. My Jot 2 is still a few weeks out I think.


----------



## jonathan c

inmytaxi said:


> No, I'm saying the Jot is as good as any tube you can roll into the Lyr, so if you're thinking of tube rolling and buying a Lyr, hear a Jot. Instead. Not in addition. YMMV


Any tube? Have you tried in Lyr 3: CBS/Hytron 5692, RCA 5692, NOS TungSol 6SN7, Ken-Rad VT-231, Melz 6N8S (1959 vintage)…?🤔


----------



## MacMan31

So I just bought a Lyr 3 used on CAM. Should arrive in around a week. Only comes with the stock tube so I am looking at some suggestions for great tubes. I don't mind tube rolling but so far in my browsing the 6SN7 tubes are more expensive than the 6922 type tubes I have been getting for my Valhalla II. In my browsing I did notice there is an adapter which would allow me to use 6SN7 tubes with the Valhalla II. Though I'd probably have to use a riser and then the adapter. 

So far I have primarily been looking here for 6SN7 tubes. 
https://tubedepot.com/t/tubes/preamp-tubes/6sn7
https://www.thetubestore.com/preamp-tubes/6sn7-tube-types
https://www.langrex.co.uk/?s=6SN7&post_type=product


----------



## jonathan c

MacMan31 said:


> So I just bought a Lyr 3 used on CAM. Should arrive in around a week. Only comes with the stock tube so I am looking at some suggestions for great tubes. I don't mind tube rolling but so far in my browsing the 6SN7 tubes are more expensive than the 6922 type tubes I have been getting for my Valhalla II. In my browsing I did notice there is an adapter which would allow me to use 6SN7 tubes with the Valhalla II. Though I'd probably have to use a riser and then the adapter.
> 
> So far I have primarily been looking here for 6SN7 tubes.
> https://tubedepot.com/t/tubes/preamp-tubes/6sn7
> ...


Use 6SN7s for Lyr 3. 6922s on an adapter will not be nearly as good. The 6SN7s are too ‘hot’ for Valhalla 2. Filament current of 6SN7 is 600 mA; filament current for 6922 / 6DJ8 is 365 mA.


----------



## MacMan31

jonathan c said:


> Use 6SN7s for Lyr 3. 6922s on an adapter will not be nearly as good. The 6SN7s are too ‘hot’ for Valhalla 2. Filament current of 6SN7 is 600 mA; filament current for 6922 / 6DJ8 is 365 mA.



I'm just saying there is an adapter that could allow for 6SN7 tubes to be used on an amp that uses 6922 tubes. But yes I see your point. Any good suggestions for 6SN7 tubes from the sources I linked above?


----------



## inmytaxi

jonathan c said:


> Any tube? Have you tried in Lyr 3: CBS/Hytron 5692, RCA 5692, NOS TungSol 6SN7, Ken-Rad VT-231, Melz 6N8S (1959 vintage)…?🤔


yes, not sure if they're really tung sol (from taiwan, says made in us and t s but in small print, 4 different designs), no and no.


----------



## HomeSlice

I’ve got a modius, lokius, Asgard 3 stack.  Paired with hd6xx, dt-1990, and he6se v2. 

I’ve been reading this thread for a couple of weeks now, considering to sell off my a3 and get an L3, thinking I’ve been missing out on something.  Tonight I got to the end of this excellent thread and ordered a….  Socket saver.  I’ve got no use for that thing if I don’t now order an amp and some tubes to swap in and out.  

I guess I’m in…. Dang it, guys…


----------



## jonathan c

inmytaxi said:


> yes, not sure if they're really tung sol (from taiwan, says made in us and t s but in small print, 4 different designs), no and no.


My point is that without trying a _broad _range of tubes of good —> excellent quality, one should not declare the Jot “as good as _any_ tube you can roll into the Lyr”.


----------



## inmytaxi

jonathan c said:


> My point is that without trying a _broad _range of tubes of good —> excellent quality, one should not declare the Jot “as good as _any_ tube you can roll into the Lyr”.


Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't read the TOS.


----------



## MacMan31

So I have a Lyr 3 on the way this week. If I buy alternate tubes do I need to "match and balance" them since I'm only using a single tube in the amp?


----------



## Ripper2860

Matching is not needed, balanced is where you want to focus.  The two triodes should be within 10% of each other to be considered well balanced.  I would not get hung-up on perfectly balanced as the Lyr 3 has auto-biasing that can correct some imbalances.


----------



## MacMan31

Ripper2860 said:


> Matching is not needed, balanced is where you want to focus.  The two triodes should be within 10% of each other to be considered well balanced.  I would not get hung-up on perfectly balanced as the Lyr 3 has auto-biasing that can correct some imbalances.



Well for example this site gives the option to choose "matched and balanced" for an extra $5. Those are not separate options. So I would choose that option when ordering right? https://www.thetubestore.com/electro-harmonix-6sn7-gold?quantity=1


----------



## bcowen

MacMan31 said:


> Well for example this site gives the option to choose "matched and balanced" for an extra $5. Those are not separate options. So I would choose that option when ordering right? https://www.thetubestore.com/electro-harmonix-6sn7-gold?quantity=1


Personally, I don't much care for vendors that charge you extra for a "good" tube.  Just my opinion, FWIW.  But that said, what does the vendor consider balanced?  Triodes within 5%? 10%? 20%? More?  I've seen some that consider balanced to be within 25% of each other, and I don't at all agree with that.  I do agree (oh my!) with @Ripper2860 that balancing within 10% is quite good enough, but I'd find out exactly what percentage this vendor considers balanced before plunking down extra for it.


----------



## MacMan31

bcowen said:


> Personally, I don't much care for vendors that charge you extra for a "good" tube.  Just my opinion, FWIW.  But that said, what does the vendor consider balanced?  Triodes within 5%? 10%? 20%? More?  I've seen some that consider balanced to be within 25% of each other, and I don't at all agree with that.  I do agree (oh my!) with @Ripper2860 that balancing within 10% is quite good enough, but I'd find out exactly what percentage this vendor considers balanced before plunking down extra for it.



Well this site also charges a couple dollars extra for things like balance, high gain or low noise. https://tubedepot.com/t/tubes/preamp-tubes/6sn7


----------



## bcowen

MacMan31 said:


> Well this site also charges a couple dollars extra for things like balance, high gain or low noise. https://tubedepot.com/t/tubes/preamp-tubes/6sn7


Yup.  Doesn't make charging more for a _good_ tube any more legitimate, IMO.


----------



## MacMan31

bcowen said:


> Yup.  Doesn't make charging more for a _good_ tube any more legitimate, IMO.



So I should not buy from those places? Or just ignore those options when purchasing?


----------



## bcowen

MacMan31 said:


> So I should not buy from those places? Or just ignore those options when purchasing?


Not trying to be difficult, but I can't really answer that for you.  I'm sure both sites have lots of satisfied customers. That I don't personally like their approach does not invalidate them as a seller.


----------



## inmytaxi

I bought a few $100 tubes from an upscale audio store and found the legs so bent there was no way the testing could have taken place as claimed by the label. I snapped a photo and shipped the tubes back in a white envelope with two first class postage stamps and no explanation or padding.  I am grateful I will save hundreds of dollars since I now do not trust these people.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 6, 2022)

Just for clarification...

Matched is typically when buying pairs of tubes for an amp that takes more than 1 tube.  Matched typically denotes that the 2 tubes are very similar to each other in measurements (strength and balance).  Balanced is for a single tube and indicates that the seller has measured both triodes and they are similar to each other in measurements.  Mismatched triodes or unbalanced triodes may result in one channel being louder than the other. 

As far as paying more for balanced/matched goes -- I'm not a big fan, but at $5 it seems reasonable.  The EH tube in the listing appears to be a new production tube, so I would imagine with tech today the tube should have relatively balanced triodes and I'd be less likely to be concerned.  If you're going to pay, as @bcowen stated -- what the seller considers BALANCED is key.  If I'm paying $5 it better be 10% or less.  Of course, if you do not have a tester, odds are you'll never really know unless it is so far out of balance that auto-biasing cannot correct the output.


----------



## tafens

I bought a tube (new production) and got the measurements with it which was “21.0, 2340” and “20.8, 2330”. Seems very well balanced to me but what do the measurement numbers  mean exactly? There were no units given.

I also thought a 6SN7 would be at 2500 to 2600 to be considered new/NOS or “strong”. As this is supposed to be a new and unused tube shouldn’t it be right up there at 2500+?


----------



## bcowen

tafens said:


> I bought a tube (new production) and got the measurements with it which was “21.0, 2340” and “20.8, 2330”. Seems very well balanced to me but what do the measurement numbers  mean exactly? There were no units given.
> 
> I also thought a 6SN7 would be at 2500 to 2600 to be considered new/NOS or “strong”. As this is supposed to be a new and unused tube shouldn’t it be right up there at 2500+?


The 21.0 and 20.8 numbers would be mA/v, or current being pulled at the voltage tested under.  The 2340 and 2330 would be transconductance (or GM) values.  2600 is the 'bogey' value for a 6SN7 (as you noted), or average GM when new.  Important thing there is _average.  _I (personally) wouldn't be concerned with those readings, as while they're on the low side of average, they're not that much lower.


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> The 21.0 and 20.8 numbers would be mA/v, or current being pulled at the voltage tested under.  The 2340 and 2330 would be transconductance (or GM) values.  2600 is the 'bogey' value for a 6SN7 (as you noted), or average GM when new.  Important thing there is _average.  _I (personally) wouldn't be concerned with those readings, as while they're on the low side of average, they're not that much lower.


Thanks! I have the tube in the Lyr3 now and it sounds excellent so no worries there


----------



## bcowen

tafens said:


> Thanks! I have the tube in the Lyr3 now and it sounds excellent so no worries there


What tube did you get?


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> What tube did you get?


The new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB 
(the *one* in a matched quad from VivaTubes I mentioned in another thread that _wasn’t_ microphonic.. )


----------



## jonathan c

When the ‘6J5+6J5’ adapter arrives soon, these will be atop the Schiit Lyr 3…


----------



## MacMan31

jonathan c said:


> When the ‘6J5+6J5’ adapter arrives soon, these will be atop the Schiit Lyr 3…



So you would be using those tubes side by side? I just received my Lyr 3 and I only have the stock tube. It's an Eletro-Harmonics. Sounds good but I'm certainly open to other suggestions.


----------



## cgb3

HomeSlice said:


> I’ve got a modius, lokius, Asgard 3 stack.  Paired with hd6xx, dt-1990, and he6se v2.
> 
> I’ve been reading this thread for a couple of weeks now, considering to sell off my a3 and get an L3, thinking I’ve been missing out on something.  Tonight I got to the end of this excellent thread and ordered a….  Socket saver.  I’ve got no use for that thing if I don’t now order an amp and some tubes to swap in and out.
> 
> I guess I’m in…. Dang it, guys…


Well, not really. To be truly in, one must order the "Magic Grease".


----------



## jonathan c

MacMan31 said:


> So you would be using those tubes side by side? I just received my Lyr 3 and I only have the stock tube. It's an Eletro-Harmonics. Sounds good but I'm certainly open to other suggestions.


NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7; for $$$, RCA 5692; for $$$$, CBS/Hytron 5692.


----------



## DTgill (Feb 7, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7; for $$$, RCA 5692; for $$$$, CBS/Hytron 5692.


As a song I heard once said, "Two out of three aint bad." For me that is...


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> NOS Tung-Sol 6SN7; for $$$, RCA 5692; for $$$$, CBS/Hytron 5692.


Frankentube + Adapter, ~ $50 - $60
'51 - '55 Foton ribbed plate 6N8S, ~ $20
'50's Melz standard 6N8S, ~$50


----------



## inmytaxi

Siemens C3G with appropriate adapter (need two, 6j5 adapter won't work as the "legs" or whatever the things that stick in the amp are called are much thinner). $50-$100 each on ebay, usually from overseas. Been awhile since I shopped 'em.


----------



## bcowen (Feb 8, 2022)

inmytaxi said:


> Siemens C3G with appropriate adapter (need two, 6j5 adapter won't work as the "legs" or whatever the things that stick in the amp are called are much thinner). $50-$100 each on ebay, usually from overseas. Been awhile since I shopped 'em.


A _pentode_?


----------



## inmytaxi

Two of 'em came with my Lyr 3.


----------



## HomeSlice

cgb3 said:


> Well, not really. To be truly in, one must order the "Magic Grease".



Dang.  There’s more?!


----------



## cgb3

HomeSlice said:


> Dang.  There’s more?!


If one rolls tubes on a regular basis, life's easier with an easy slide. Prevents oxidation, and makes it much easier to insert and remove.

I always coat the pins on tubes, as well as the central plastic alignment plug (using cotton swabs), and use a thin wire/pipe cleaner to introduce some grease to the base sockets.

Dielectric grease is a good thing to keep on hand.


----------



## Slade01

@


jonathan c said:


> When the ‘6J5+6J5’ adapter arrives soon, these will be atop the Schiit Lyr 3…


Those L63 tubes are awesome.  I immensely enjoyed them when I had them.   Speaking of which, when your adapter comes - for the Lyr 3, do you plan on using a socket saver to raise the adapter a bit?  I'm asking on behalf of someone interested in tube rolling dual 6j5s on a Lyr 3.  I don't have one, but in the past, I know that alot of the Schiit design has the sockets recessed pretty good (I had to use a socket saver for the vali 2 to use adapters).   Is this the case with the Lyr 3?


----------



## tafens

Slade01 said:


> @
> 
> Those L63 tubes are awesome.  I immensely enjoyed them when I had them.   Speaking of which, when your adapter comes - for the Lyr 3, do you plan on using a socket saver to raise the adapter a bit?  I'm asking on behalf of someone interested in tube rolling dual 6j5s on a Lyr 3.  I don't have one, but in the past, I know that alot of the Schiit design has the sockets recessed pretty good (I had to use a socket saver for the vali 2 to use adapters).   Is this the case with the Lyr 3?


The tube socket in the Lyr3 is recessed by just about the same amount as the height of a typical socket saver, making the top of the saver sitting flush with the top chassis. Much like on the Vali2.


----------



## Slade01

tafens said:


> The tube socket in the Lyr3 is recessed by just about the same amount as the height of a typical socket saver, making the top of the saver sitting flush with the top chassis. Much like on the Vali2.



Thanks - I kind of figured but had to be sure.   Really appreciate it!


----------



## jonathan c

Slade01 said:


> @
> 
> Those L63 tubes are awesome.  I immensely enjoyed them when I had them.   Speaking of which, when your adapter comes - for the Lyr 3, do you plan on using a socket saver to raise the adapter a bit?  I'm asking on behalf of someone interested in tube rolling dual 6j5s on a Lyr 3.  I don't have one, but in the past, I know that alot of the Schiit design has the sockets recessed pretty good (I had to use a socket saver for the vali 2 to use adapters).   Is this the case with the Lyr 3?


I have an octal socket saver in the Lyr 3 already. It definitely allows the Lyr to run cooler. After a few hours, the amp body is just warm.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> I have an octal socket saver in the Lyr 3 already. It definitely allows the Lyr to run cooler. After a few hours, *the amp body is just warm.*


Put this on then.  It will heat it up nicely.  😂😂


----------



## Slade01

bcowen said:


> Put this on then.  It will heat it up nicely.  😂😂



Are you trying to melt @jonathan c 's amp?  What's next? That AND some GE tube specials?


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Put this on then.  It will heat it up nicely.  😂😂



That's it!  I've stood by quietly and allowed this to happen previously, but no more!  I've formally filed a complaint against @bcowen with PETA - People for the Ethical Treatment of Amplifiers.  🤨


----------



## bcowen

Slade01 said:


> Are you trying to melt @jonathan c 's amp?  What's next? That AND some GE tube specials?


Shhhhhhh.  I'm gonna have to quit sharing secrets with you.  😤


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> That's it!  I've stood by quietly and allowed this to happen previously, but no more!  I've formally filed a complaint against @bcowen with PETA - People for the Ethical Treatment of Amplifiers.  🤨


Who died and made you, um, _you_?  And here I was hoping 2022 would be better than 2021.  Drats.  🤬


----------



## Ripper2860

Prepare to have your amps re-homed, you audio evil-doer!  😜


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Put this on then.  It will heat it up nicely.  😂😂


Did you forget? The Xmas Appeal for destruction?…. _We_ assume that you’re good for next Xmas…


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Put this on then.  It will heat it up nicely.  😂😂


Melz vs Manson, my rubles are on Melz 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> Did you forget? The Xmas Appeal for destruction?…. _We_ assume that you’re good for next Xmas…


When it comes to destroying stuff, no need to wait until Christmas.  Simply ask and ye shall receive.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Prepare to have your amp re-oriented by 90 degrees, you audio evil-doer!  😜


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## HomeSlice

I got my Lyr about a week ago with the JJ tube, using the hifiman he6se v2.  After messing with it for a lot of hours, I figured out some eq settings that made it sound pretty good. 

Today in the mailbox I found a sylvania tube reputed to be a 2-hole bad boy, if such a thing really exists. 

Plugged it in, turned off my eq, and listened for a bit.  This combo sounds FANTASTIC!

I mean, I’m a newbie compared to a lot of you guys, but I really had no idea a set of cans could sound this good.  I’ve never heard anything like it.  

Maybe it’s confirmation bias, but I’m really happy with this combo, real bad boy or not.


----------



## jonathan c

HomeSlice said:


> Today in the mailbox I *found *a sylvania tube reputed to be a 2-hole bad boy, if such a thing really exists.
> Plugged it in, turned off my eq, and listened for a bit.  This combo sounds FANTASTIC!


😜 I wish that strangers would leave great tubes in my mailbox. Can I be a neighbour? 🤣


----------



## HomeSlice

LOL

My wife didn’t really buy that story either


----------



## DTgill

HomeSlice said:


> Today in the mailbox I found a sylvania tube reputed to be a 2-hole bad boy, if such a thing really exists.
> 
> Maybe it’s confirmation bias, but I’m really happy with this combo, real bad boy or not.


Pictures...  Need some proof...


----------



## HomeSlice

Here ya go


----------



## HomeSlice

Is there a significant difference in the sound of the various manufacturers of vt-231 tubes?


----------



## LoryWiv (Feb 20, 2022)

HomeSlice said:


> Is there a significant difference in the sound of the various manufacturers of vt-231 tubes?


I only own 2:

Sylvania: Gorgeous treble, lovely mids, bass quantity on the low/average side although bass quality is quite good. Excellent driver paired with warmer power tubes.
Ken-Rad: Wonderful bass, tight and tuneful, very present but not obtrusive. Mids just a tad less engaging and treble is very good but less extended than Sylvania.

Caveat: This assessment is in my Feliks-Audio Elise, so YMMV.


----------



## HomeSlice

LoryWiv said:


> I only own 2:
> 
> Sylvania: Gorgeous treble, lovely mids, bass quantity on the low/average side although bass quality is quite good. Excellent driver paired with warmer power tubes.
> Ken-Rad: Wonderful bass, tight and tuneful, very present but not obtrusive. Mids just a tad less engaging and treble is very good but less extended than Sylvania.
> ...


Ok, thanks for that.  I’ve got some reading to do, but I’d love to test one of these myself.  

I’m new to this tube rolling thing, but it’s pretty fun (and expensive) so far.


----------



## LoryWiv

HomeSlice said:


> Ok, thanks for that.  I’ve got some reading to do, but I’d love to test one of these myself.
> 
> I’m new to this tube rolling thing, but it’s pretty fun (and expensive) so far.


You are officially welcomed to head-fi w/the greeting: "Welcome to head-fi, sorry about your wallet".


----------



## MacMan31

I'm looking at a few more tubes for my Lyr 3. 

I've never bought from Etsy before but this seller was recommended. If an item is "in a person's basket" does that mean it's not available for purchase? Also most of what this seller has for 6SN7 tubes are in pairs. Does it make sense to buy a pair if the Lyr 3 only hold one tube? 
https://www.etsy.com/ca/shop/Lowtec..._id=1113336724&search_query=6sn7&page=2#items 

Also I'm looking here so if anyone can recommend options from here please feel free. 
https://www.langrex.co.uk/?s=6SN7&post_type=product

This is one I am considering. https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/6sn7gtb-sylvania-black-plate-nos-valve-tube-lc26/


----------



## jonathan c

You can always buy a great pair and have one of them be a backup.


----------



## MacMan31

Yeah I guess that is true. Any recommendations from the Etsy page? I know that what sounds good can be subjective. But this is my first time buying these type of tubes so I'm sure you guys have some favourites by now.


----------



## Ripper2860

I'm a fan of the Sylvania VT-231.


----------



## MacMan31

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm a fan of the Sylvania VT-231.



This one here? https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/116...rch_query=6sn7&ref=shop_items_search_16&sts=1


----------



## Ripper2860

MacMan31 said:


> This one here? https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/1165348023/sylvania-vt-231-vt231-6sn7-6sn7gt-vacuum?click_key=4f75e821dc8acb24db80ddcf8b4df5ee2cf32154:1165348023&click_sum=9556dd1c&ga_search_query=6sn7&ref=shop_items_search_16&sts=1


Yes.


----------



## HomeSlice

LoryWiv said:


> You are officially welcomed to head-fi w/the greeting: "Welcome to head-fi, sorry about your wallet".



Lol.  Thanks.  I think


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 20, 2022)

Welcome.  My tip to you is to just pull the bandage off quickly. Quality vs Quantity.  Buy a handful of really well regarded tubes as opposed to buying butt-loads in hopes of finding a diamond in the rough. Learn from others and let @bcowen serve as an example of how not to do it.  (And me to a lesser extent.)  😄


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Welcome.  My tip to you is to just pull the bandage off quickly. Quality vs Quantity.  Buy a handful of really well regarded tubes as opposed to buying butt-loads in hopes of finding a diamond in the rough. Learn from others and let @bcowen serve as an example of how not to do it.  (And me to a lesser extent.)  😄


LOL!  I'm quite enjoying these $10 tubes right now.  OK, ok, $20 since two are needed (before you go all nitpicky).


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> You are officially welcomed to head-fi w/the greeting: "Welcome to head-fi, sorry about your wallet".


….Head-Fi, Wallet: Bye!


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> Welcome.  My tip to you is to just pull the bandage off quickly. Quality vs Quantity.  Buy a handful of really well regarded tubes as opposed to buying butt-loads in hopes of finding a diamond in the rough. Learn from others and let @bcowen serve as an example of how not to do it.  (And me to a lesser extent.)  😄


…butt-loads?…poor @HomeSlice is not looking for ‘rectumfiers’, just for a few good VT-231s…🤣


----------



## Ripper2860

😄


----------



## bcowen

HomeSlice said:


> Ok, thanks for that.  I’ve got some reading to do, but I’d love to test one of these myself.
> 
> I’m new to this tube rolling thing, but it’s pretty fun *(and expensive)* so far.


On the plus side, it only gets worse.  But it's easy to stop whenever you want (experienced by nobody, ever).


----------



## HomeSlice

jonathan c said:


> …butt-loads?…poor @HomeSlice is not looking for ‘rectumfiers’, just for a few good VT-231s…🤣



LOL

I may end up with one of my wife googles what these tubes cost.


----------



## Ripper2860

My greatest fear is that after I die my wife will sell my tubes (and camera gear) for what I said I paid for it.  😯


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> My greatest fear is that after I die my wife will sell my tubes (and camera gear) for what I said I paid for it.  😯


ROFL!!


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> My greatest fear is that after I die my wife will sell my tubes (and camera gear) _to Bangybang _for what I said I paid for it. 😯


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## jonathan c (Feb 20, 2022)

HomeSlice said:


> LOL
> 
> I may end up with one of my wife googles what these tubes cost.


Use this as the search result. 

“All quiet on the _home_ front”. 😆


----------



## inmytaxi

MacMan31 said:


> This one here? https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/1165348023/sylvania-vt-231-vt231-6sn7-6sn7gt-vacuum?click_key=4f75e821dc8acb24db80ddcf8b4df5ee2cf32154:1165348023&click_sum=9556dd1c&ga_search_query=6sn7&ref=shop_items_search_16&sts=1


I find that tubes with that plate structure have my favorite 'sound', more linear and extended fr than some others in the lower price range.


----------



## Mr Trev

MacMan31 said:


> I've never bought from Etsy before but this seller was recommended. *If an item is "in a person's basket" does that mean it's not available for purchase?* Also most of what this seller has for 6SN7 tubes are in pairs. Does it make sense to buy a pair if the Lyr 3 only hold one tube?
> https://www.etsy.com/ca/shop/Lowtec..._id=1113336724&search_query=6sn7&page=2#items


I asked the same seller at that. Apparently it's just Etsy's way into pressuring folks to buy something - you know, before the "other person" does


----------



## DougD

Ripper2860 said:


> My greatest fear is that after I die my wife will sell my tubes (and camera gear) for what I said I paid for it.  😯


You need to start the story that many of your investments in tubes have really paid off, and even you are amazed at how valuable many of them have become in today's market.


----------



## jonathan c

DougD said:


> You need to start the story that many of your investments in tubes have really paid off, and even you are amazed at how valuable many of them have become in today's market.


…and you need to emphasise that none of the sonic/financial payoffs came from GE tubes…🤔


----------



## inmytaxi

DougD said:


> You need to start the story that many of your investments in tubes have really paid off, and even you are amazed at how valuable many of them have become in today's market.


Sweetheart, those are very valuable. That's Johnnie's college fund. Stop playing with the family tubes.


----------



## MacMan31

So I just received a couple new tubes. Nothing high end but just a couple new ones to try out. What is the best way to "burn in" the tubes? Just let them burn while I listen? Or keep the Lyr 3 on for a couple days?


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 23, 2022)

My suggestion is listen.  And if you choose, leave the amp on playing music or white noise and HP plugged in when not actively listening (maybe wrapped in a towel if the sound bothers you).  Just leaving the amp on with nothing playing won't really run them in properly.


----------



## FLTWS

MacMan31 said:


> So I just received a couple new tubes. Nothing high end but just a couple new ones to try out. What is the best way to "burn in" the tubes? Just let them burn while I listen? Or keep the Lyr 3 on for a couple days?


I do both, turn the amp on in the morning, a listening session or two during the day, when not listening I still play something thru the amp. Shut it down when I head for bed. I remember at some point in the distant past some mention that the cool down cycle, say overniite, was an important part of the process. Don't know the veracity of this point, however. As I mentioned in a previous post, the acid test; buy 2 identical new tubes, play one for 50 to 100 hours. Pop tin the virgin tube and see if you hear a difference with the "broken in" one. I do like 6SN7 Tung-Sols, and their EL-34 power tubes are a favorite of mine in my power amp and didn't seem to need the hours of burn-in as say with the Gold Lion KT-77's.


----------



## MacMan31

FLTWS said:


> I do both, turn the amp on in the morning, a listening session or two during the day, when not listening I still play something thru the amp. Shut it down when I head for bed. I remember at some point in the distant past some mention that the cool down cycle, say overniite, was an important part of the process. Don't know the veracity of this point, however. As I mentioned in a previous post, the acid test; buy 2 identical new tubes, play one for 50 to 100 hours. Pop tin the virgin tube and see if you hear a difference with the "broken in" one. I do like 6SN7 Tung-Sols, and their EL-34 power tubes are a favorite of mine in my power amp and didn't seem to need the hours of burn-in as say with the Gold Lion KT-77's.



Okay cool. Would it be a good idea to leave it on while I'm away at work? The Lyr 3 being a hybrid doesn't get too warm but I'm still cautious.


----------



## FLTWS (Feb 23, 2022)

It would probably be okay, given the number of pieces of equipment now days that are always on at some low level, like Yggdrasil. Jut be sure of plenty of air circulation around the amp and nothing flammable nearby. However, I have no idea what happens to the amp if a tube fails. Never had that happen to me. But, between weekday evenings and weekends you should be able to get around 50 hours of play time per week and somewhere around 50 up to 100 hours seems to be the sweet spot for tubes that need to be run in. NOS tubes may already have a lot of hours on them already


----------



## Zachik

Ripper2860 said:


> My suggestion is listen.  And if you choose, leave the amp on playing music or white noise and HP plugged in when not actively listening (*maybe wrapped in a towel if the sound bothers you*).  Just leaving the amp on with nothing playing won't really run them in properly.





MacMan31 said:


> Okay cool. Would it be a good idea to leave it on while I'm away at work? *The Lyr 3 being a hybrid doesn't get too warm but I'm still cautious.*


To clarify the comment by @Ripper2860 - he was referring to wrap the headphones in a towel. NOT the amp!!!!!!


----------



## jonathan c

Zachik said:


> To clarify the comment by @Ripper2860 - he was referring to wrap the headphones in a towel. NOT the amp!!!!!!


…if still confused, it’s time to throw in the towel 🤪🤣…


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> …if still confused, it’s time to throw in the towel 🤪🤣…


LOL!  But I'm not a big fan of the towel idea to reduce sound radiation.  Better to wire one earcup out of phase relative to the other, then duct tape the cups together face-to-face.  Very little sound will escape.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Feb 23, 2022)

Oh, so you've moved on from your previous recommendation of placing headphones in a Ziplock bag and immersing them in the toilet tank.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Oh, so you've moved on from your previous recommendation of placing headphones in a Ziplock bag and immersing them in the toilet.


Never thought of that.  But it's not terribly surprising _you_ did.  

Besides, you'll remember I have a CBI for burning in tubes.


----------



## jonathan c (Feb 23, 2022)

Ripper2860 said:


> Oh, so you've moved on from your previous recommendation of placing headphones in a Ziplock bag and immersing them in the toilet tank.


…wholesome, immature, adolescent activity…👍🤪🤣


----------



## jclyle

My Lyr 3 Multibit is for sale:
https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/lyr-3-multibit.20851/


----------



## LoryWiv

jonathan c said:


> …if still confused, it’s time to throw in the towel 🤪🤣…


But please don't pull the wool over your eyes.


----------



## inmytaxi

MacMan31 said:


> So I just received a couple new tubes. Nothing high end but just a couple new ones to try out. What is the best way to "burn in" the tubes? Just let them burn while I listen? Or keep the Lyr 3 on for a couple days?


I never do that. So tubes sound better after 15 minutes, some boot right up.


----------



## inmytaxi

Ripper2860 said:


> Oh, so you've moved on from your previous recommendation of placing head  ... in the toilet.
> 
> 
> jonathan c said:
> ...


fyp


----------



## aldinho878

how is the multibit dac in the lyr 3 compared to something like a mojo/Hugo/hugo2 or any of the IFi dac/amps? Do you feel that that the multibit dac limits the Lyr 3 performance or is it a solid dac overall?


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> But please don't pull the wool over your eyes.


…wouldn’t wool towels be as itchy as hell…?😳


----------



## LoryWiv

jonathan c said:


> …wouldn’t wool towels be as itchy as hell…?😳


You're right. I feel so sheepish for suggesting it.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> You're right. I feel so sheepish for suggesting it.


Ewe certainly should.  😂


----------



## LoryWiv

bcowen said:


> Ewe certainly should.  😂


Any more of this and I'll take it on the lamb. Time to hoof it on out of here.


----------



## bcowen

LoryWiv said:


> Any more of this and I'll take it on the lamb. Time to hoof it on out of here.


😂😂😂


----------



## jonathan c

LoryWiv said:


> Any more of this and I'll take it on the lamb. Time to hoof it on out of here.


Baaaa!


----------



## inmytaxi

aldinho878 said:


> how is the multibit dac in the lyr 3 compared to something like a mojo/Hugo/hugo2 or any of the IFi dac/amps? Do you feel that that the multibit dac limits the Lyr 3 performance or is it a solid dac overall?


Lyr 3 can distinguish between BiFrost 2 and Yggy pretty easily. So will you benefit from using multibit? Yes, if you enjoy multibit. I prefer the BiFrost 2 with Jot 2 and Yggy with Lyr 3. But, Yggy's going with the speaker system, not the headphones. I feel like Yggy does the best with putting a musician in the room. BF is more of a rocker.


----------



## Zachik

bcowen said:


> Ewe certainly should.  😂





LoryWiv said:


> Any more of this and I'll take it on the lamb. Time to hoof it on out of here.





jonathan c said:


> Baaaa!


You guys are hilarious!


----------



## jonathan c

Zachik said:


> You guys are hilarious!


…it’s just shear talent….🤣😣….


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 11, 2022)

•  I am astonished by the soundstage improvements (delineation, depth, width…) the KenRad 6J5 pair brings versus the single KenRad VT-231. These attributes are so readily picked up by the Auteur.
•  The fabled KenRad bass extends deeper (!) without a hint of bloat with the 6J5s. At the other end of the sound spectrum, harmonics from brass & strings are _there! _but not disassociated from the underlying notes 🥲.
•  The Lyr 3 is ‘pummeling far above its weight class’ and I look forward to using other 6J5 / 6C5 / L63…(GEC, Sylvania…)
•  _Kudos, again, to @Deyan for the outstanding craftsmanship shown in the adapter._


----------



## jonathan c

After the GEC L63 experience (& the K-R 6J5 experience), this Lyr 3 will not likely return to ‘6SN7-dom’. The music presentation is too involving, too captivating…😍


----------



## MacMan31

I'm going through my stack of old tubes I got with the Saga Plus. What does it mean if a tube sounds "heavy" to one side? Like the sound is not balanced between left and right. It wasn't that one side was louder. It's just the it seemed more was happening on the right than the left. Especially bass tones.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 20, 2022)

It means that the tube is likely not well balanced and that the 2 triodes measure significantly different from each other.  Each triode in a dual triode tube represents 1 channel of the stereo pair.


----------



## MacMan31

So basically the tube has run its course and is likely near the end of its life?


----------



## Ripper2860

At least one half has.  Time to put that tube out to pasture.  If the amp's auto- bias cannot compensate for the imbalance, then it's too far gone.


----------



## cgb3

Ripper2860 said:


> Welcome.  My tip to you is to just pull the bandage off quickly. Quality vs Quantity.  Buy a handful of really well regarded tubes as opposed to buying butt-loads in hopes of finding a diamond in the rough. Learn from others and let @bcowen serve as an example of how not to do it.  (And me to a lesser extent.)  😄


Should be a sticky.

I applaud you sir.


----------



## piakoB (Mar 26, 2022)

Anyone got a suggestion about a tube upgrade? I have a Lyr 3 and mostly listen to jazz music (all jazz sub-genres), pop and sometimes some symphonic/"classical." Right now I just have the stock tube supplied by Schiit. I looked through this thread maybe 6 months ago but couldn't get a solid understanding of what sounds best or pairs well with certain kinds of music.


----------



## tafens

piakoB said:


> Anyone got a suggestion about a tube upgrade? I have a Lyr 3 and mostly listen to jazz music (all jazz sub-genres), pop and sometimes some symphonic/"classical." Right now I just have the stock tube supplied by Schiit. I looked through this thread maybe 6 months ago but couldn't get a solid understanding of what sounds best or pairs well with certain kinds of music.


I’m looking for a tube that is an all-rounder and works with all kinds of music as well as tv and film. To that end, I have found the new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB to be good. I also like the Shuguang CV181-Z (white base black glass). The Z being a little leaner but also having a bit larger stage.

Perhaps you already have the TS, it is one of the possible stock tubes one can get with the Lyr3, depending on what they have at the time.


----------



## jonathan c

piakoB said:


> Anyone got a suggestion about a tube upgrade? I have a Lyr 3 and mostly listen to jazz music (all jazz sub-genres), pop and sometimes some symphonic/"classical." Right now I just have the stock tube supplied by Schiit. I looked through this thread maybe 6 months ago but couldn't get a solid understanding of what sounds best or pairs well with certain kinds of music.


Here are a couple of ideas: Sylvania 6SN7GTB ‘chrome dome’, Raytheon 6SN7, Ken-Rad VT-231. [My listening—> jazz, R&B, blues, funk, R&R not ‘metal’, symphonic.]


----------



## piakoB (Mar 26, 2022)

tafens said:


> I’m looking for a tube that is an all-rounder and works with all kinds of music as well as tv and film. To that end, I have found the new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB to be good. I also like the Shuguang CV181-Z (white base black glass). The Z being a little leaner but also having a bit larger stage.
> 
> Perhaps you already have the TS, it is one of the possible stock tubes one can get with the Lyr3, depending on what they have at the time.





jonathan c said:


> Here are a couple of ideas: Sylvania 6SN7GTB ‘chrome dome’, Raytheon 6SN7, Ken-Rad VT-231. [My listening—> jazz, R&B, blues, funk, R&R not ‘metal’, symphonic.]


Thanks. I did some digging and have selected as my first purchase consideration at least tentatively to between the Tung-Sol new production 6SN7GTB; Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boy; and last I'm looking at the Marconi 6SN7GTB which is supposedly good for jazz. Someone said the Sylvania I mentioned to not be compatible because of the difference in plate voltage, but I'm still looking at reviews, etc. Prices and availability differ I'm finding between these options. My Lyr 3 came with the J&J 6SN7.


----------



## jonathan c (Mar 26, 2022)

piakoB said:


> Thanks. I did some digging and have selected as my first purchase consideration at least tentatively to between the Tung-Sol new production 6SN7GTB; Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boy; and last I'm looking at the Marconi 6SN7GTB which is supposedly good for jazz. Someone said the Sylvania I mentioned to not be compatible because of the difference in plate voltage, but I'm still looking at reviews, etc. Prices and availability differ I'm finding between these options. My Lyr 3 came with the J&J 6SN7.


A Sylvania 6SN7GT should be fine. What year is it? Does it have a “two-hole” plate or a “three-hole” plate? Does the seller state how the tube is a ‘Bad Boy’? 🤔


----------



## piakoB

jonathan c said:


> A Sylvania 6SN7GT should be fine. What year is it? Does it have a “two-hole” plate or a “three-hole” plate? Does the seller state how the tube is a ‘Bad Boy’? 🤔


This guy has it listed here under #5
https://valvesnmore.com/?product=6sn7-12sn7-tubes
Any opinion would be helpful either on this re-seller or particular tube. Based on his description I'm thinking I will probably go for the Sylvania 6SN7GTB like you said ealier. Btw thanks for all the help.


----------



## bcowen

piakoB said:


> Thanks. I did some digging and have selected as my first purchase consideration at least tentatively to between the Tung-Sol new production 6SN7GTB; Sylvania 6SN7GT Bad Boy; and last I'm looking at the Marconi 6SN7GTB which is supposedly good for jazz. Someone said the Sylvania I mentioned to not be compatible because of the difference in plate voltage, but I'm still looking at reviews, etc. Prices and availability differ I'm finding between these options. My Lyr 3 came with the J&J 6SN7.


In an amp designed specifically for a -GTB and running the higher plate voltages that the GTB can handle, then yes, a regular GT could be a problem.  The Lyr 3 is not running those higher voltages and any 6SN7GT will be perfectly fine in it.  

FWIW, I didn't much care for the JJ myself, so for my ears most anything you get will be a step up from that.


----------



## bcowen

piakoB said:


> This guy has it listed here under #5
> https://valvesnmore.com/?product=6sn7-12sn7-tubes
> Any opinion would be helpful either on this re-seller or particular tube. Based on his description I'm thinking I will probably go for the Sylvania 6SN7GTB like you said ealier. Btw thanks for all the help.


I can't tell from the picture provided whether that's a true Bad Boy or not.  Either way, $150 is about twice the going market price.


----------



## piakoB

bcowen said:


> In an amp designed specifically for a -GTB and running the higher plate voltages that the GTB can handle, then yes, a regular GT could be a problem.  The Lyr 3 is not running those higher voltages and any 6SN7GT will be perfectly fine in it.
> 
> FWIW, I didn't much care for the JJ myself, so for my ears most anything you get will be a step up from that.





bcowen said:


> I can't tell from the picture provided whether that's a true Bad Boy or not.  Either way, $150 is about twice the going market price.


Thanks. I will probably try and find something on ebay then.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 26, 2022)

None of those pictures are Bad Boys. The mica structure is a give away that they are not.  Bad Boy has rectangular mica with 3 slightly downward turning triangular spikes in each short side of the top mica.  None are present on the left tube and the right tube is a round spiked mica.


----------



## jclyle

piakoB said:


> Thanks. I will probably try and find something on ebay then.


I've placed a couple orders with this Etsy seller, and all the tubes have been dead silent in my Lyr3 and WA6. You won't find many exotic tubes in his listings, but quite a few mid range options that are worth giving a try.

https://www.etsy.com/shop/Lowtechel...-name&listing_id=1149495818&search_query=6sn7


----------



## D Getter

The plan was simply to try a new tube in my Lyr 3, casually, just something besides the JJ 6SN7 that came with it. Started looking for info on tubes and found this place. So naturally...

I've now received 10 of the tubes I've ordered on the way down the rabbit hole. This is fun. Question. Two of the tubes I ended up with are Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB, angled black T-plates, top D Getter. These seem well regarded, albeit not the most popular or sought after tubes. What I'm really wondering about though, is the branding. I haven't seen either of these mentioned here:

- Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB branded "EICO" (seller says 1957)
- Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB branded "STROMBERG -CARLSON" (seller didn't indicate a year)

Just wondering if anyone knows any history on 6SN7s with this branding or these specific tubes. Or anything about these TS 6SN7GTBs in general.


----------



## tafens

D Getter said:


> The plan was simply to try a new tube in my Lyr 3, casually, just something besides the JJ 6SN7 that came with it. Started looking for info on tubes and found this place. So naturally...


That’s usually the way it starts.. 



D Getter said:


> I've now received 10 of the tubes I've ordered on the way down the rabbit hole. This is fun. Question. Two of the tubes I ended up with are Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB, angled black T-plates, top D Getter. These seem well regarded, albeit not the most popular or sought after tubes. What I'm really wondering about though, is the branding. I haven't seen either of these mentioned here:
> 
> - Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB branded "EICO" (seller says 1957)
> - Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB branded "STROMBERG -CARLSON" (seller didn't indicate a year)
> ...


Not specifically, I don’t recognise there names as actual tube manufacturers, but it was common practice back then (as is still today) that companies had tubes rebranded for them by other manufacturers. Even among tube manufacturers themselves. Things like the internal structure of the tubes can give a clue as to who really manufactured it. For example, I have learnt that etched dots on the glass is a dead giveaway that they were manufactured by GE.


----------



## MacMan31

Due to the Lyr 3 being just a single tube does it make sense to buy a used matched pair? There are a few matched pairs of 6SN7 on CAM that could be worth getting.


----------



## Ripper2860

Never hurts to have a backup as long as the matched status is not at a premium.


----------



## MacMan31

Ripper2860 said:


> Never hurts to have a backup as long as the matched status is not at a premium.



Okay cause here is a few I am looking at. 

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649843890-matched-pair-6sn7-tung-sol-tall-bottle/ 

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649843845-matched-pair-6sn7-sylvania/

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/det...-tube-cossor-6sn7-electronic-tube-match-pair/

Also came across this set. I can't recall if this was mentioned in this thread or the 6SN7 thread but can 6SL7 technically be used in the Lyr 3? Someone mentioned they have higher distortion so it's best not to use them. 

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649843844-matched-pair-6sl7-tj-full-music/


----------



## Ripper2860 (Mar 30, 2022)

I wouldn't suggest 6SL7 in Lyr 3.  They are very high gain - much higher than 6SN7 and will likely over drive the amp.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I wouldn't suggest 6SL7 in Lyr 3.  They are very high gain - much higher than 6SN7 and will likely over drive the amp.


Amplification factors: 6SL7 = 70x; 6SN7 = 20x.


----------



## piakoB

Received my new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB tube Wednesday and it sounds fantastic. Really transparent and detailed. Everything seems more nuanced.


----------



## inmytaxi

jonathan c said:


> Amplification factors: 6SL7 = 70x; 6SN7 = 20x.


.


----------



## cgb3 (Apr 25, 2022)

tafens said:


> I’m looking for a tube that is an all-rounder and works with all kinds of music as well as tv and film. To that end, I have found the new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB to be good. I also like the Shuguang CV181-Z (white base black glass). The Z being a little leaner but also having a bit larger stage.
> 
> Perhaps you already have the TS, it is one of the possible stock tubes one can get with the Lyr3, depending on what they have at the time.


Shuguang CV181-z is an excellent valve. I rotate it with a PSvane lightbulb, and 15 other tubes, many wartime (WWII) 6FAG military issue (my favorites), including a round plate marked GE, but produced by another manufacturer. I call it my BCowen.

Here's a good compendium.


----------



## lolhahaha

Has anyone seen any good deals on matched pairs lately? I'm looking to buy at least 2 sets of 2 tubes, don't have to be the same.

I just got a Freya and have a set of kenrad vt231 and Sylvania vt231 but since this was a used unit I don't know how long these are going to last but they really sound excellent.

I'm not looking to roll tubes just to get the best additional set's that I can for the eventual burnout of these.

Yeah I guess I should be posting this in the Freya thread. I got lost lol!


----------



## inmytaxi (Apr 18, 2022)

bcowen said:


> I can't tell from the picture provided whether that's a true Bad Boy or not.  Either way, $150 is about twice the going market price.


There are some Bad Boy 1952 on ebay, but they just went up from $150 to $250 for a plat matched pair.

These are the only ones he lists as Bad Boy, vs. the other Sylvanias with "Bad Boy plates" that are listed.

I got some very nice tubes from him, seems to be honest.

I'm confused if the 'true' "Bad Boy" has two or three holes.

These GEC look too good to be true.


----------



## DTgill

Here's my 1951 "2 Hole Bad Boy" as I understand it...


----------



## inmytaxi (Apr 18, 2022)

For those of you who want to hear tube rolling options, these are available for the summer. Too hot in Florida, I go straight class D figuring less a/c is going to impact the sound in my room more than any benefit from 'tube sound'.

If more than a handful respond, I am open to dividing this into two groups. There is also a Melz that says 3/51 and a couple RCA's. And a Westinghouse. And 4 tung sols of unknown lineage. None of these besides maybe the Melz ( I don't know what year it is) are fancy tubes, most of these arrived with the Lyr 3 used,

I've wanted to do this for awhile, and if this puts out the fire in tube prices a little, I'm going to save many monies!

If need the amp, I suppose I could toss that in for those without.


----------



## jonathan c

When I run a pair of GEC L63 (or KenRad VT-94) with the @Deyan-built adapter, the Lyr 3 gets only slightly warm due to the tube elevation 😀:


----------



## inmytaxi

jonathan c said:


> When I run a pair of GEC L63 (or KenRad VT-94) with the @Deyan-built adapter, the Lyr 3 gets only slightly warm due to the tube elevation 😀:


Those are nice.

A Tung Sol 1626 NIB NOS were $50 a pair (Hytron were under $40 NIB NOS, but Tung Sol is thought to sound better. I can't really tell but I stay on the safe side). A Lorenz ez81 were NIB NOS $40 a pair. A Sylvania 6189 NIB NOS is $43 a pair presently on eBay (closer match for $5 more, I don't need it as my monos have independent levels).

The Telefunken in my ValiGruven is more than all six. (it was included in the Mjolnir I bought used).

eg. But they're suited!


----------



## tafens

jonathan c said:


> When I run a pair of GEC L63 (or KenRad VT-94) with the @Deyan-built adapter, the Lyr 3 gets only slightly warm due to the tube elevation 😀:



Nice setup!  The black tube adapter blends very well with the black body on the Lyr3, as does the volume knob. Where did you find it?


----------



## jonathan c

tafens said:


> Nice setup!  The black tube adapter blends very well with the black body on the Lyr3, as does the volume knob. Where did you find it?


It was built by Head-Fier @Deyan. His workmanship is 🥇🏆. The knob was bought via EBay.


----------



## cgb3

Ripper2860 said:


> None of those pictures are Bad Boys. The mica structure is a give away that they are not.  Bad Boy has rectangular mica with 3 slightly downward turning triangular spikes in each short side of the top mica.  None are present on the left tube and the right tube is a round spiked mica.


You went to school, started your career; ... did you ever imagine you'd be a tube DIVA? (I mean this in the best possible way).


----------



## Ripper2860 (Apr 19, 2022)

Never in my wildest dreams.  I always thought I'd grow up and contribute something meaningful.  I'm still just waiting to grow up.    😄


----------



## inmytaxi

How many tubes did the military use? There's a guy trying to sell marconi's for airfare to Vietnam I mean, come on. Can't I just fly to Hanoi and source it myself for five bux?


----------



## cgb3 (Apr 22, 2022)

D Getter said:


> The plan was simply to try a new tube in my Lyr 3, casually, just something besides the JJ 6SN7 that came with it. Started looking for info on tubes and found this place. So naturally...
> 
> I've now received 10 of the tubes I've ordered on the way down the rabbit hole. This is fun. Question. Two of the tubes I ended up with are Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB, angled black T-plates, top D Getter. These seem well regarded, albeit not the most popular or sought after tubes. What I'm really wondering about though, is the branding. I haven't seen either of these mentioned here:
> 
> ...


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7gt-6f8g-an-exploration-of-wwii-era-octal-tubes.890205/
and
https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/

Careful ... Lots of money can be wasted in rabbit holes.


----------



## bcowen

cgb3 said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7gt-6f8g-an-exploration-of-wwii-era-octal-tubes.890205/
> and
> https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/
> 
> Careful ... Lots of money can be wasted *spent decorating* rabbit holes.


FTFY.   * *


----------



## jonathan c

cgb3 said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7gt-6f8g-an-exploration-of-wwii-era-octal-tubes.890205/
> and
> https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/
> 
> Careful ... Lots of money can be wasted in *filling *rabbit holes.


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## Mr Trev

jonathan c said:


> FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


Not try to kink-shame, but filling rabbit holes?? (man… I've been spending waaay too much time on Reddit)


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Not try to kink-shame, but filling rabbit holes?? (man… I've been spending waaay too much time on Reddit Rebbit…)


FTFY…[Reg. TM; © bcowen: 2021]


----------



## D Getter

cgb3 said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6sn7gt-6f8g-an-exploration-of-wwii-era-octal-tubes.890205/
> and
> https://www.effectrode.com/knowledge-base/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/
> 
> Careful ... Lots of money can be wasted in rabbit holes.


Thanks for the articles! It's definitely easy to drop some coin on this stuff... I feel pretty well set at this point though, thankfully. Like I said I've got about 10 tubes to play with and just acquiring them has been a fun learning experience in itself. I've tried the stock JJ 6SN7, a 1940s Raytheon 6SN7GT/VT-231, a 1957 Tung Sol 6SN7GTB, and currently a 1954 RCA 6SNGTA (which I _think_ may be my favorite so far).


----------



## bob2299

Can someone recommend a SS tube for my Lyr 3? Don't know much about tubes ._.


----------



## JohnBal

bob2299 said:


> Can someone recommend a SS tube for my Lyr 3? Don't know much about tubes ._.


I have found the Sylvania tubes to generally sound more extended than some others - if by SS tube that is what you are referring to.


----------



## bob2299

Maybe I'm referring it wrong, but a SS tube or rectifier. Something like the "LISST" tubes.


----------



## FLTWS (Apr 27, 2022)

The OG version was discontinued a few years back. There is a new version coming but no ETA on when. I think Jason spoke to this subject recently in one of his posts.

And, the OG flat tops are now collectibles and command a premium price. The new ones will have a tube shape.


----------



## bob2299

Were the "LISST" tubes the only solid state tube the lyr 3 could take?


----------



## FLTWS (Apr 27, 2022)

bob2299 said:


> Were the "LISST" tubes the only solid state tube the lyr 3 could take?


To my knowledge, yes, nobody I'm aware of made this type of product or any other for amplification purpose.


----------



## bob2299

Hmm... guess i'll have to wait. Thanks for the info


----------



## FLTWS

I'll most likely buy one of the new issue when available. Per Jason they will be electrically identical to the old, just a different shape.


----------



## jonathan c

Lyr 3 in action with GEC L63 / CV1067 pair….


----------



## bob2299

Is there a way to remove the socket saver without removing the top plate?


----------



## bcowen

bob2299 said:


> Is there a way to remove the socket saver without removing the top plate?


This is what I use for the stubborn ones:


----------



## jonathan c (Jun 20, 2022)

….if you have an extra 6SN7, eight-pin tube or even s/s, maybe the fit will be tight enough to pull the s/s out.


----------



## JohnBal

bob2299 said:


> Is there a way to remove the socket saver without removing the top plate?


Clean dental floss works. A long piece, wrap it around the bottom a few times and carefully work it out.


----------



## bob2299

Thanks


----------



## FLTWS (Jun 21, 2022)

That's one reason I prefer flush mount tube sockets, you never need extenders and you never run into this issue. Secondly, I think the unit runs cooler.

Of course, that's more expensive to build. Holes need to be drilled in the metal, nuts and bolts needed to affix the tube sockets to the top plate, and since the socket is no longer attached to the circuit board the bottom pins need to be hardwired (hand soldiered) to the circuit board. All adding additional expense.


----------



## Paladin79

It is the only way I build tube amps. I have not seen it with Schiit tube products but I have repaired several amps that had solder joints or etches crack on the PC boards because of the pressure and flexing on the sockets as tubes were changed.


----------



## bcowen

Paladin79 said:


> It is the only way I build tube amps. I have not seen it with Schiit tube products but I have repaired several amps that had solder joints or etches crack on the PC boards because of the pressure and flexing on the sockets as tubes were changed.


That's a really nice looking top plate.  Must have spent some time in a quality environment.


----------



## Pondoro

Paladin79 said:


> It is the only way I build tube amps. I have not seen it with Schiit tube products but I have repaired several amps that had solder joints or etches crack on the PC boards because of the pressure and flexing on the sockets as tubes were changed.


My guitar amp friends do not like tube sockets on circuit boards for exactly this reason. I’ve had no trouble with my Schiit but it worries me a bit.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> That's a really nice looking top plate.  Must have spent some time in a quality environment.


You could use that plate as reinforcement to the old cardboard abode! It’s even alma mater-esque in colour!


----------



## j0val

jonathan c said:


> Lyr 3 in action with GEC L63 / CV1067 pair….



I’ve been absent from this sub for a few months. What’s the benefit of the dual tubes and how do I get in on it?


----------



## jonathan c

j0val said:


> I’ve been absent from this sub for a few months. What’s the benefit of the dual tubes and how do I get in on it?


•  The tubes that I use now in Lyr 3 are 6C5 pair or 6J5 pair. These take the place of one 6SN7. The 6C5 / 6J5 are single-triode tubes while the 6SN7 is a dual-triode tube. My favourites, so far, are Ken-Rad and GEC (UK).
•  The advantages _to my ears _of the 6C5 / 6J5 pair over the single 6SN7 are: greater delineation of a wider/deeper soundstage, more realistic capture of ambience & reverberation, more extended bass response with clarity and without exaggeration.
•  To use these tubes with Lyr 3 requires _a_ 6J5 + 6J5 —> 6SN7 adapter. Those on EBay look flimsy and wretched. Commission @Deyan to make one for you. That is what is directly atop Lyr 3 in the picture. His work is 🏆🥇.


----------



## j0val

jonathan c said:


> •  The tubes that I use now in Lyr 3 are 6C5 pair or 6J5 pair. These take the place of one 6SN7. The 6C5 / 6J5 are single-triode tubes while the 6SN7 is a dual-triode tube. My favourites, so far, are Ken-Rad and GEC (UK).
> •  The advantages _to my ears _of the 6C5 / 6J5 pair over the single 6SN7 are: greater delineation of a wider/deeper soundstage, more realistic capture of ambience & reverberation, more extended bass response with clarity and without exaggeration.
> •  To use these tubes with Lyr 3 requires _a_ 6J5 + 6J5 —> 6SN7 adapter. Those on EBay look flimsy and wretched. Commission @Deyan to make one for you. That is what is directly atop Lyr 3 in the picture. His work is 🏆🥇.


Thank you for the detailed information. Looks amazing and I bet it sounds amazing too. I’ve been itching for something new ever since the Folkvangr was released, but I’m not quite ready to make that leap. I still have a lot to explore with the Lyr!


----------



## jonathan c

j0val said:


> Thank you for the detailed information. Looks amazing and I bet it sounds amazing too. I’ve been itching for something new ever since the Folkvangr was released, but I’m not quite ready to make that leap. I still have a lot to explore with the Lyr!


•  The Lyr 3 is a great amp. I have used headphones from 20-ohm Audeze LCD-X to 600-ohm Beyerdynamic DT-880: results are in the ‘very good’ to ‘excellent’ range. There have been no ‘clunkers’. With the 300-ohm Senn, ZMFs, 600-ohm Beyer I had to use the high-gain setting: but that is why it is there.
•  The sound of the 6C5-equipped Lyr 3 is detailed like solid state, coherent and dimensional like vacuum tube. AND a pair (make that two pairs!) of excellent 6C5 / 6J5 tubes will cost less than a ‘holy grail’ 6SN7 (such as the CBS/Hytron 5692)!


----------



## inmytaxi

DTgill said:


> I have the tube mounted in a tube saver.


For generic branded tubes, the green Sylvania 6ns7's are my number one! Four in a Freya look SMART.


----------



## inmytaxi

JohnBal said:


> Clean dental floss works. A long piece, wrap it around the bottom a few times and carefully work it out.


why clean?

I have an actual tube question: why are the FV tube vents ... not flat? can't find the word here ... is there some kind of convection advantage or is it just looks?


----------



## Pondoro (Jul 16, 2022)

TLDR – Cable Effects and a Tube Roll

I bought a used Lyr 3. It came with the multibit DAC module, a vintage Crosley-labeled 6SN7 tube and no cords. The input to the module is a USB “B” connector. All computers mentioned in this saga are Windows desktop PC’s, less than two years old, and with maxed out memory.

Installed the Lyr on Computer 1 driving a pair of powered Klipsch bookshelf speakers with a small sub. I ran a Schiit Modi 3 from one USB port and then into the Lyr analog input – this worked fine. I used the Schiit-supplied USB cable that came with the Modi 3. I planned to compare the Modi 3 to the multibit card. Not my best speakers but the computer setup in this room would make the comparison easy.

Then (still on Computer 1), with “USB A-B cable 1” I ran the signal to Lyr multibit module input:

Sound cuts out for 1 to several seconds. Sometimes the sound actually switches, spontaneously, from the multibit DAC to the built in Realtek sound card and then switches back to Lyr (Lyr is driving different speakers than the Realtek card). If the Realtek sound card is disabled then the sound cuts out completely and Fubar ends with an error message. I tried two different USB outlets on the computer, no difference.

Moved the Lyr to Computer 2, still using USB cable 1 to the multibit input, also tried two different USB ports:

Again the sound cuts out for 1 to several seconds. Sometimes the sound actually switches to the built in Realtek sound card and then switches back to Lyr (Lyr is driving different speakers). If the Realtek is disabled then the sound cuts out completely and Fubar ends with an error message. Tube becomes microphonic and there is some audible feedback when Lyr gets fully warmed up (mild “howl” comes and goes, touch or tap the Lyr and the “tap” is audible in the speakers. Tapping increases the feedback howl.) This also occurs with Windows Media Player and YouTube as the source.

Switch to “USB A-B cable 2”: Feedback and microphonics seem worse. Start Fubar, feedback slowly builds, stop Fubar and the feedback remains! This seems like it could hurt something, if only my relationship with my wife.

Switch back to USB cable 1. I get cutouts hot or cold, microphonics only when tube (a vintage Crosley) is hot.

Confession time. I am a cable denier. I work in aerospace, I am a mechanical engineer but work closely with electrical engineers who design wires for great reliability and resistance to stray currents. I’ve been in charge of cable test programs. All of the angst about wires in aerospace seems centered around grounds and connectors, especially the connectors for grounds. Of all the cables that I am convinced “cannot matter!” a USB cable is number one on the list. Further confession: These two USB A to B cables were each included free with a printer, back when printer cables were included free. They are old. They work great with printers.

Bought a new, non-audio, USB A to B cable at Microcenter for $21.99. It was a cheaper, USB 2.0 cable. USB 3 cables were more expensive.

Installed the new cable, let us call it Cable 3, Lyr is still on PC 2. The cutouts have not reoccurred. Microphonics remain, tap the Lyr anywhere when the tube is hot and the sound is horrible, drag your fingernail across the case of the Lyr and you can hear it in the speakers. Swapped the vintage Crosley tube for a vintage GE tube, microphonics are gone! No cutouts, I am in hour 3 or so with Cable 3. We will continue.

Day 2 – still no sound cutouts, probably 3 hours of listening. I am starting to think the problem is solved. This computer does not have great speakers for A/B comparison of a Modi to the Multibit DAC. I’m just happy that the multibit DAC/Lyr are playing sound. I will need to revamp some system, probably my best one, to A/B the Modi versus the multibit module.

Note that I have no idea how the sound quality compares between the old and new cables, the sound cutouts were too annoying for serious comparison and as we speak I have yet to hear the multibit DAC driving good speakers without that problem. I am just happy that with the new cable everything seems to work.


----------



## bcowen (Jul 16, 2022)

Pondoro said:


> TLDR – Cable Effects and a Tube Roll
> 
> I bought a used Lyr 3. It came with the multibit DAC module, a vintage Crosley-labeled 6SN7 tube and no cords. The input to the module is a USB “B” connector. All computers mentioned in this saga are Windows desktop PC’s, less than two years old, and with maxed out memory.
> 
> ...


Possible that the "freebie" cables you used are USB 1.0 instead of USB 2.0? You mentioned they were old.  Big difference in bandwidth capabilities between the two standards.  Don't know if that has any bearing on the issue, but it might.

And microphonic tubes happen.  Sucks, but it comes with the territory.  Sometimes resoldering the pins can fix it, but only sometimes.  I'd certainly try that though (if you are able) rather than continue listening to a GE.   🤣  🤣


----------



## tafens

Pondoro said:


> TLDR – Cable Effects and a Tube Roll
> 
> I bought a used Lyr 3. It came with the multibit DAC module, a vintage Crosley-labeled 6SN7 tube and no cords. The input to the module is a USB “B” connector. All computers mentioned in this saga are Windows desktop PC’s, less than two years old, and with maxed out memory.
> 
> ...



Seems you have had the bad fortune of broken or sub-standard USB cables as well as the dreaded microphonic tube problem. I’m happy you got it all sorted out!

I’ve had similar problems myself, although not both at the same time..

The cable issue. When I got my Lyr3 I also bought a high quality USB A-B printer cable locally to use with it. It served me well for quite some time but then I started to get exactly the same problems that you describe: cut-outs for 1 second or longer, the computer speakers cutting in instead (I use a Mac laptop). After a while of testing different things I figured I’d try to replace the USB cable. Said and done, everything worked great again!

The tube issue. I bought some spare tubes off of an online seller but didn’t try them until some time later. The tube I had in the Lyr3 worked fine, and the spares were the same manufacturer and kind, so I didn’t think to check them until  the one I used developed some slight static noise problems. Turns out 3 of 4 in the bunch were microphonic  Not in the same way as yours, but a tap on the amp would return a “twangggg!”-sound and tapping on the shelf beside the amp would go through as well.

Just thought I’d share


----------



## Pondoro

bcowen said:


> Possible that the "freebie" cables you used are USB 1.0 instead of USB 2.0? You mentioned they were old.  Big difference in bandwidth capabilities between the two standards.  Don't know if that has any bearing on the issue, but it might.
> 
> And microphonic tubes happen.  Sucks, but it comes with the territory.  Sometimes resoldering the pins can fix it, but only sometimes.  I'd certainly try that though (if you are able) rather than continue listening to a GE.   🤣  🤣


I never thought of USB 1! I think you are correct. I'll roll other tubes once this is in my best system. That system has no PC right now, so no easy way to input into the USB.


----------



## Pondoro

tafens said:


> {SNIP}
> 
> The cable issue. When I got my Lyr3 I also bought a high quality USB A-B printer cable locally to use with it. It served me well for quite some time but then I started to get exactly the same problems that you describe: cut-outs for 1 second or longer, the computer speakers cutting in instead (I use a Mac laptop). After a while of testing different things I figured I’d try to replace the USB cable. Said and done, everything worked great again!
> 
> ...


I am glad someone else had this issue, I was thinking I had lost my mind! Also glad it can be fixed.


----------



## Pondoro

bcowen said:


> Possible that the "freebie" cables you used are USB 1.0 instead of USB 2.0? You mentioned they were old.  Big difference in bandwidth capabilities between the two standards.  Don't know if that has any bearing on the issue, but it might.
> 
> And microphonic tubes happen.  Sucks, but it comes with the territory.  Sometimes resoldering the pins can fix it, but only sometimes.  I'd certainly try that though (if you are able) rather than continue listening to a GE.   🤣  🤣


@bcowen - I have replaced the GE 6SN7 with a "birth year" RCA "Radiotron", it sounds mildly better (but recall this is not in my music system, it is in a PC that has two small monitor speakers where I record and mix.) The Lyr is working great, it will soon move to a proper music system. My reason for buying it was to compare the Schiit multibit card to a Schiit Modi into the same preamp. 

Birth year, by the way, is 1957. 

How do you resolder a tube? I have soldering irons of various power levels and real, deadly, lead-containing, solder. I'd love to make the Crosley useable, I actually live in the Cincinnati, Ohio environs. The Crosley tube would be a "hometown" tube, although I do not know if Crosley actually made them or outsourced them. Either way the name "Crosley" is revered in Cincinnati.


----------



## bcowen

Pondoro said:


> @bcowen - I have replaced the GE 6SN7 with a "birth year" RCA "Radiotron", it sounds mildly better (but recall this is not in my music system, it is in a PC that has two small monitor speakers where I record and mix.) The Lyr is working great, it will soon move to a proper music system. My reason for buying it was to compare the Schiit multibit card to a Schiit Modi into the same preamp.
> 
> Birth year, by the way, is 1957.
> 
> How do you resolder a tube? I have soldering irons of various power levels and real, deadly, lead-containing, solder. I'd love to make the Crosley useable, I actually live in the Cincinnati, Ohio environs. The Crosley tube would be a "hometown" tube, although I do not know if Crosley actually made them or outsourced them. Either way the name "Crosley" is revered in Cincinnati.


Ah, finally someone older than me.  But you only have me beat by a year.  🤣

Crosley made some very nice components, but I don't think they ever actually made tubes.  Likely OEM labeled for them by one of the big players.

Resoldering can be done in one of two ways: 1) quick and easy is to simply reheat each of the pins until the solder flows and add a little new solder.  2) is to heat the solder until it flows, and then use a solder sucker to totally remove the old solder and then replace with new.  Many times the quick and easy way will work just fine, but it may not last as long without problems redeveloping as the second method.  Keep the tube mostly horizontal (or with the pins very slightly higher than the other end) and capillary action will draw the solder up into the pin.  I use a Weller at a 750 degree tip temp with a chisel shaped tip. It can probably be done with more or less heat, that's just what I've become accustomed to and it works fine for me.  The 1950's era Russian tubes have a high incident rate of solder problems, but I've also run into it with several Tung Sols and a few Sylvanias.


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Ah, finally someone older than me.  But you only have me beat by a year.  🤣


Well, I have you beaten by a handful. 1953 still is a very good year (sorry, Ole Blue Eyes): Ben Hogan won the Masters, US Open, British Open. Saul Marantz founded his namesake company in Queens (Kew Gardens) NYC in 1953. 🤷🏻‍♂️🤣


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> Crosley made some very nice components, but I don't think they ever actually made tubes.



What, you mean this thing?


----------



## jonathan c

A great colour on a starter Crosley ⬆️ ? for @bcowen. But he has his eyes set on a C-blue ‘mobile home’…🤣


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> What, you mean this thing?


Man, that one is in great shape!  Way better than @Ripper2860 's daily driver:


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> A great colour on a starter Crosley ⬆️ ? for @bcowen. But he has his eyes set on a C-blue ‘mobile home’…🤣


Yeah, the simulated wood siding sealed the deal.   🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> Yeah, the simulated wood siding sealed the deal.   🤣


It matches the luggage furniture 😄.


----------



## Pondoro

I have read extensively on Powel Crosley Jr. He had plenty of cash but when his son asked for a faddish new device (a radio!) he was shocked to learn that they cost $100. So he made his own, eventually going into both the manufacturing business and the broadcasting business. Besides many manufacturing inventions he introduced the soap opera.


----------



## Zachik

Now I know where @Jason Stoddard got the inspiration for the original LISST...


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Man, that one is in great shape!  Way better than @Ripper2860 's daily driver:


Purty is as purty does.  😜


----------



## bob2299 (Aug 4, 2022)

Can you use an adapter for Tall schiit lisst tubes to 6sn7? Using a lyr 3.


----------



## reg66

bob2299 said:


> Can you use an adapter for Tall schiit lisst tubes to 6sn7? Using a lyr 3.


Bit late to reply, only just read this/re-visited this thread. 
Yes, I bought a lyr 3 that came with a selection of tubes including Lisst (tall, 6922) inserted into an adapter. The best Lisst to look out for are the Octal Lisst that fit directly into our amp, but they don't come up that often. 
NOTE: if you do buy other 6922/ECC88 etc etc tubes then I recommend buying a new adapter and leaving them in situ in the adapter. I bought a microphonic Reflector 6N23p. I wanted to rule out (foolishly) that the microphonics weren't produced by its own adapter. So I changed the adapter from Lisst (had no trouble tube rolling before, just ease it out of Lyr 3 with a gentle hand) to the 6N23P only to find same noises present with both adapters. But, I have now loosened the sockets enough that when pulling/rotating gently the Lisst from Lyr, it leaves the adapter behind. The adapter sits below the amp cover (inside the amp) which is a right sod to try and get out.

Long story short, keep the Lisst in its own adapter with firm sockets. Just waiting on a new, fresh socketed adapter from CN so that I can use the Lisst again. The Lisst comes in handy for relaxing about having to turn the amp off, it runs lukewarm. With that SS tube in place I don't mind falling asleep with my powered speakers on low, for example.

I actually came here looking to see if there was any pointers for extracting a stuck adapter in the amp!!

Apologies for the bloated waffle, it's waay late here. I'm off to bed


----------



## bob2299 (Aug 10, 2022)

Thanks for the response


----------



## chef8489

It's been a very long time since I had a Lyr 3 but I am planning on purchasing one again soon. Hopefully I remember the tubes I l9ved so much and can find them again. Just debating on trying to find a multibit version again or if a 9028 will be good enough.


----------



## reg66

chef8489 said:


> It's been a very long time since I had a Lyr 3 but I am planning on purchasing one again soon. Hopefully I remember the tubes I l9ved so much and can find them again. Just debating on trying to find a multibit version again or if a 9028 will be good enough.


If you can afford new... are you aware of the new Lyr+ that's being released in the next couple of weeks or so? Looks to be a great follow up from the Lyr 3... Solid state is built in, so you can simply unplug the tube and it becomes a SS amp, or switch the tube off using a button for it to become a SS amp. This is a superb step I reckon. (Along with all the other upgrades over the Lyr 3) NOTE: There is no DAC card option with the new amp, which may mean you rule it out. It's a stand alone amp. As far as I read, and iirc, the general consensus seemed to be that the card option wasn't much cop in comparison to a stand alone DAC anyway.
Also note, the Bifrost 2 also got an upgrade!

Anyway, if you are interested/curious...
more info and pics here


----------



## chef8489

reg66 said:


> If you can afford new... are you aware of the new Lyr+ that's being released in the next couple of weeks or so? Looks to be a great follow up from the Lyr 3... Solid state is built in, so you can simply unplug the tube and it becomes a SS amp, or switch the tube off using a button for it to become a SS amp. This is a superb step I reckon. (Along with all the other upgrades over the Lyr 3) NOTE: There is no DAC card option with the new amp, which may mean you rule it out. It's a stand alone amp. As far as I read, and iirc, the general consensus seemed to be that the card option wasn't much cop in comparison to a stand alone DAC anyway.
> Also note, the Bifrost 2 also got an upgrade!
> 
> Anyway, if you are interested/curious...
> more info and pics here


I had the multibit dac card in my last lyr 3 last time and it sounded great. This was my intention this time. They still have a black version in the discount page that's a stock with the multibit. I'm working on a deal for one of my handguns locally and if it goes through I'll probably order it tomorrow. I need a dac and that's why the lyr + is really not an option and another 800 for a bifrost is not an option right now. I don't even have headphones yet, so that is another thing I'll have to do. 

I got out of the desktop and full sized canes a few years ago when some thingsngs happened and money got tight. I went portable exclusively, but gave both my se100 and se200 to my mom and step-dad and now I don't have anything thus wanting the lyr 3 before it's too late.


----------



## reg66 (Aug 15, 2022)

chef8489 said:


> I had the multibit dac card in my last lyr 3 last time and it sounded great. This was my intention this time. They still have a black version in the discount page that's a stock with the multibit. I'm working on a deal for one of my handguns locally and if it goes through I'll probably order it tomorrow. I need a dac and that's why the lyr + is really not an option and another 800 for a bifrost is not an option right now. I don't even have headphones yet, so that is another thing I'll have to do.
> 
> I got out of the desktop and full sized canes a few years ago when some thingsngs happened and money got tight. I went portable exclusively, but gave both my se100 and se200 to my mom and step-dad and now I don't have anything thus wanting the lyr 3 before it's too late.


Ahh I see. Yeah, the BF2, 2nd hand or new, was/isn't an option for me either with my current fund situation. I bought the final version (Gen 5 USB) of BF1 2nd hand off ebay not so long ago, along with the Lyr 3 from the same seller. Loving it but would deffo like to see what the differences are of the BF1 vs BF2 as and when I can afford.

Not sure what your budget is for headphones, assuming you'll be going full size again, but I can whole heartedly recommend the Edition XS as a really decent pairing with the Lyr 3. They're very detailed (planars with stealth magnets) and I've not heard many bad things about them, sound wise. One person wrote that (again, iirc) whilst they sound very detailed and neutral they tend to become a bit boring. That's where the Lyr comes in, add a bit of tube flavour and hey presto, the best of both world is found imo!! When I want clinical detail I just pop in the Lisst SS tube.
Can't really say that I have anywhere near the experience of most of the users here, but I didn't just try the Edition XS, I tried around 6 or so pairs from Sundara up to and Beyerdynamic T5 3rd Gen and to me the Hifiman are my fav's. However, they are quite loose on the head, so if you're someone who likes to head-bop to music then they could be a bad choice. But for me just moving slightly looking at web pages etc or listening with static head this isn't a problem. One thing I did find with the XS's is that for long listening sessions I'd get hotspots on my head on either side of the headband. This was remedied with one of these

Anyway, apologies for all the waffle. Good luck with whatever you choose and a warm welcome (pun intended) back to tubes soon.


----------



## chef8489

reg66 said:


> Ahh I see. Yeah, the BF2, 2nd hand or new, was/isn't an option for me either with my current fund situation. I bought the final version (Gen 5 USB) of BF1 2nd hand off ebay not so long ago, along with the Lyr 3 from the same seller. Loving it but would deffo like to see what the differences are of the BF1 vs BF2 as and when I can afford.
> 
> Not sure what your budget is for headphones, assuming you'll be going full size again, but I can whole heartedly recommend the Edition XS as a really decent pairing with the Lyr 3. They're very detailed (planars with stealth magnets) and I've not heard many bad things about them, sound wise. One person wrote that (again, iirc) whilst they sound very detailed and neutral they tend to become a bit boring. That's where the Lyr comes in, add a bit of tube flavour and hey presto, the best of both world is found imo!! When I want clinical detail I just pop in the Lisst SS tube.
> Can't really say that I have anywhere near the experience of most of the users here, but I didn't just try the Edition XS, I tried around 6 or so pairs from Sundara up to and Beyerdynamic T5 3rd Gen and to me the Hifiman are my fav's. However, they are quite loose on the head, so if you're someone who likes to head-bop to music then they could be a bad choice. But for me just moving slightly looking at web pages etc or listening with static head this isn't a problem. One thing I did find with the XS's is that for long listening sessions I'd get hotspots on my head on either side of the headband. This was remedied with one of these
> ...


I'll probably go back with the audeze lcd-2 classic or possible the Drop + Dan Clark Audio Aeon Open X. The Amp plus headphones will put me under 1600.00 if new and if I go used for headphones less.


----------



## reg66

chef8489 said:


> I'll probably go back with the audeze lcd-2 classic or possible the Drop + Dan Clark Audio Aeon Open X. The Amp plus headphones will put me under 1600.00 if new and if I go used for headphones less.


Nice! I had the DCA Aeon Closed X briefly (not paired with the Lyr 3). Would like to try the Audeze but they're a tad out of my league... for now!!


----------



## chef8489

reg66 said:


> Nice! I had the DCA Aeon Closed X briefly (not paired with the Lyr 3). Would like to try the Audeze but they're a tad out of my league... for now!!


I really loved the lcd-2 classic when I had it before. I really curious how the dca aeon Open X compares as it's a bit cheaper. I hear it doesn't amp as well nor is it as dynamic nor as wide Soundstage, but I hear it still sounds good.


----------



## Ripper2860

chef8489 said:


> I had the multibit dac card in my last lyr 3 last time and it sounded great. This was my intention this time. They still have a black version in the discount page that's a stock with the multibit. I'm working on a deal for one of my handguns locally and if it goes through I'll probably order it tomorrow. I need a dac and that's why the lyr + is really not an option and another 800 for a bifrost is not an option right now. I don't even have headphones yet, so that is another thing I'll have to do.
> 
> I got out of the desktop and full sized canes a few years ago when some thingsngs happened and money got tight. I went portable exclusively, but gave both my se100 and se200 to my mom and step-dad and now I don't have anything thus wanting the lyr 3 before it's too late.


Glad you 're on the verge of re-joing the Lyr 3 fmaily, @chef8489.  We've missed you and look forward to having you back in the fold!!


----------



## chef8489 (Aug 16, 2022)

Just ordered my closeout multibit dac in black for 770.06 after shipping. Pretty excited to get back in the game. Ill update everyone when it arrives. Now Ill have to get some tubes again. If anyone wants to donate one or two to get me back on my feet lol Jk. Ordered the lcd-2c as well. was talking to my mother while doing a mock order trying to see how much after tax and shipping and accidentally ordered them. Was going to do a comparison to eBay open box set as I didn't know if the open box had a warranty. Oh well what is done is done.


----------



## ecline77

Pondoro said:


> @bcowen - I have replaced the GE 6SN7 with a "birth year" RCA "Radiotron", it sounds mildly better (but recall this is not in my music system, it is in a PC that has two small monitor speakers where I record and mix.) The Lyr is working great, it will soon move to a proper music system. My reason for buying it was to compare the Schiit multibit card to a Schiit Modi into the same preamp.
> 
> Birth year, by the way, is 1957.
> 
> How do you resolder a tube? I have soldering irons of various power levels and real, deadly, lead-containing, solder. I'd love to make the Crosley useable, I actually live in the Cincinnati, Ohio environs. The Crosley tube would be a "hometown" tube, although I do not know if Crosley actually made them or outsourced them. Either way the name "Crosley" is revered in Cincinnati.


----------



## ecline77

You can't resolder a tube. The tube is microphonic due to loose internals. You cannot get inside the tube without ruining the vacuum.


----------



## Pondoro

chef8489 said:


> Just ordered my closeout multibit dac in black for 770.06 after shipping. Pretty excited to get back in the game. Ill update everyone when it arrives. Now Ill have to get some tubes again. If anyone wants to donate one or two to get me back on my feet lol Jk. Ordered the lcd-2c as well. was talking to my mother while doing a mock order trying to see how much after tax and shipping and accidentally ordered them. Was going to do a comparison to eBay open box set as I didn't know if the open box had a warranty. Oh well what is done is done.


I bought a used Lyr 3 multibit just before Lyr + dropped. Someday soon I’ll A/B it versus a Modi 3.


----------



## chef8489

Pondoro said:


> I bought a used Lyr 3 multibit just before Lyr + dropped. Someday soon I’ll A/B it versus a Modi 3.


I had a Modi multibit and a Vali before I got the lyr 3 last time. I had a lot of fun tube rolling on the Vali but the Lyr 3 multibit blew that combo out of the water in my opinion so I sold the combo.


----------



## Pondoro

chef8489 said:


> I had a Modi multibit and a Vali before I got the lyr 3 last time. I had a lot of fun tube rolling on the Vali but the Lyr 3 multibit blew that combo out of the water in my opinion so I sold the combo.


I will compare Lyr 3 with multibit to Lyr 3 with Modi 3 into the analog input. I’m curious, not compelled. I have a Vali, I suppose I should compare it but it’s in a different room.


----------



## chef8489

Pondoro said:


> I will compare Lyr 3 with multibit to Lyr 3 with Modi 3 into the analog input. I’m curious, not compelled. I have a Vali, I suppose I should compare it but it’s in a different room.


Id be curious of your impressions. They didn't have the modi multibit available, so it wasn't an option and Im living in a barracks room with limited room right now. Living at a va veterns facility currently until the va fixes my crap as its much cheaper than living in an apartment and I'm on a pretty tight budget due to my injuries and such. So a lyr 3 with the dac is much more space friendly.


----------



## cgb3

reg66 said:


> If you can afford new... are you aware of the new Lyr+ that's being released in the next couple of weeks or so? Looks to be a great follow up from the Lyr 3... Solid state is built in, so you can simply unplug the tube and it becomes a SS amp, or switch the tube off using a button for it to become a SS amp. This is a superb step I reckon. (Along with all the other upgrades over the Lyr 3) NOTE: There is no DAC card option with the new amp, which may mean you rule it out. It's a stand alone amp. As far as I read, and iirc, the general consensus seemed to be that the card option wasn't much cop in comparison to a stand alone DAC anyway.
> Also note, the Bifrost 2 also got an upgrade!
> 
> Anyway, if you are interested/curious...
> more info and pics here


If one wants tubes, why purchase the new Lyr+?

It's sole claim to fame seems to be that it can operate without a tube, like 99% of other Schiit amps.

No one can doubt the genius of the Schiit planing and marketing team. Great success story.

Sometimes, I just say Hummmmm.


----------



## reg66 (Aug 16, 2022)

cgb3 said:


> If one wants tubes, why purchase the new Lyr+?
> 
> It's sole claim to fame seems to be that it can operate without a tube, like 99% of other Schiit amps.
> 
> ...


Well for my Lyr 3 I have the Lisst tube. I have a large screen monitor to PC that I watch youtube videos on and films, setting a timer to shut the PC after say an hour or 2. This is mostly when I plan to fall asleep (with audio coming from Lyr's RCAs to active speakers, not headphones). I often have something on in the background to drift off to, boring documentaries most of the time lol.
I don't wanna leave any of the tubes roasting away while I'm asleep for obvious reasons, so that's where the Lisst comes in. Just plug that in for relatively cool running temps and FAR greater longevity over tubes. That's why I'm interested in the Lyr+, no need to even bother switching tubes, just press a button and the tube portion shuts down leaving a SS amp. Perfect for me.

Also, I really like tubes for most music, but for a lot of synthesized EDM I prefer the SS approach for a clinical repoduction. Call me crazy but I like having the best of both worlds.


----------



## Zachik

cgb3 said:


> If one wants tubes, why purchase the new Lyr+?


Lyr 3 is a great tube amp. Well, hybrid tube amp but still...
Lyr+ should be at least as good, plus adding the solid-state trick. Think of it as "2 amps inside 1 chassis".


----------



## jonathan c

Zachik said:


> Lyr 3 is a great tube amp. Well, hybrid tube amp but still...
> Lyr+ should be at least as good, plus adding the solid-state trick. Think of it as "2 amps inside 1 chassis".


One should note that with Lyr3, the vented area around the tube socket hole is flat. With Lyr3+, that area appears to be concave. That could (will?) affect the use of adapters such as 6J5+6J5 —> 6SN7. Another reason for me to stay with Lyr3 (which with two KenRad 6C5 s, is one of my h/p/a favourites).


----------



## chef8489

My Lyr 3 will be here Monday. It already shipped. Not sure when my headphones will ship nor how long the Audeze shipping will take.  Hopefully it will ship out tomorrow.


----------



## jonathan c

[Columbia: February, 1967.]   _jonathan c smiles_


----------



## chef8489

Finally back in the game. It arrived today. Now to get some tubes. It came with a JJ 6sn7


----------



## tafens

chef8489 said:


> Finally back in the game. It arrived today. Now to get some tubes. It came with a JJ 6sn7


When it comes to new production tubes in the Lyr3, I’d recommend having a listen to the new production Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB.
For something more spacious but alas somewhat less “musical”, I also like the Psvane CV181-Z. The JJ was to me like a cross between those two, but unfortunately with the lesser traits of both - less stage and less musical.


----------



## jonathan c

If you can, a NOS Ken-Rad VT-231 is a great tube for Lyr 3 !


----------



## chef8489

jonathan c said:


> If you can, a NOS Ken-Rad VT-231 is a great tube for Lyr 3 !


It will probably be a long time before I get another one of those again. The prices on those have gone crazy since I sold all my tubes with my lyr 3 a few years ago. I'd like one as well as a bad boy, but doesn't look like it's feasible any time soon.


----------



## DougD

jonathan c said:


> If you can, a NOS Ken-Rad VT-231 is a great tube for Lyr 3 !



I agree that the Ken-Rad VT-231 is excellent with the Lyr3. Listening at present with HD-650, pending an order of a ZMF Atrium in a few months.

Mine KenRAd wasn't NOS, and after an hour or two on, develops a bit of low-volume "whale song/radio squeal" noise that I hear between songs. Happily, I can't hear it when my normal rock&roll (etc) tunes are playing, and I'm hoping it won't get worse any time soon.


----------



## chef8489 (Aug 22, 2022)

Some night pics of the JJ tube. Doesnt have a lot of glow but has some.. Cant wait to get some vintage tubes.


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> Finally back in the game. It arrived today. Now to get some tubes. It came with a JJ 6sn7


Sweet!  But now we gotta get you some tubes.  I'll check this weekend and see what we can come up with.  The JJ is, well, um, I'll just say it's not my favorite.


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> Sweet!  But now we gotta get you some tubes.  I'll check this weekend and see what we can come up with.  The JJ is, well, um, I'll just say it's not my favorite.


Yeah I would probably have to agree with you on that, but it is what it is. At least it has me listening to music.


----------



## cgb3 (Aug 24, 2022)

reg66 said:


> Well for my Lyr 3 I have the Lisst tube. I have a large screen monitor to PC that I watch youtube videos on and films, setting a timer to shut the PC after say an hour or 2. This is mostly when I plan to fall asleep (with audio coming from Lyr's RCAs to active speakers, not headphones). I often have something on in the background to drift off to, boring documentaries most of the time lol.
> I don't wanna leave any of the tubes roasting away while I'm asleep for obvious reasons, so that's where the Lisst comes in. Just plug that in for relatively cool running temps and FAR greater longevity over tubes. That's why I'm interested in the Lyr+, no need to even bother switching tubes, just press a button and the tube portion shuts down leaving a SS amp. Perfect for me.
> 
> Also, I really like tubes for most music, but for a lot of synthesized EDM I prefer the SS approach for a clinical repoduction. Call me crazy but I like having the best of both worlds.


I use my Lyr 3 with vacuum tubes, but only as a pre-amp to my Jot 2. My Lyr 3 is only used when listening to music, and I turn on the amp ~1/2 hour before listening. The Jot 2 is used for all A/V duties, and is turned on at the beginning of my listening/viewing period.

I use a power strip with dedicated power switches for each outlet, so each Schiit component may be energized remotely.


----------



## cgb3

Zachik said:


> Lyr 3 is a great tube amp. Well, hybrid tube amp but still...
> Lyr+ should be at least as good, plus adding the solid-state trick. Think of it as "2 amps inside 1 chassis".


I have the Lyr 3, and Jot 2. I appreciate the strengths of both amps.

If you want solid state, buy the Jot 2, and be done.

Good luck Schiit with the Lry 3+, I have no interest.


----------



## Asterisk3095 (Aug 26, 2022)

I'm considering getting a Lyr 3 (with multibit DAC) before they all get sold out. However, I am quite concerned because of reports saying these Schiit amps have fried headphones (there are a couple of these situations in this thread). Has Schiit found out/eliminated the cause of this?


----------



## chef8489

Asterisk3095 said:


> I'm considering getting a Lyr 3 (with multibit DAC) before they all get sold out. However, I am quite concerned because of reports saying these Schiit amps have fried headphones (there are a couple of these situations in this thread). Has Schiit found out/eliminated the cause of this?


there were a couple of faulty units but that was not normal. there is always a risk with any headphone amp of that if the unit is faulty.


----------



## cgb3

Asterisk3095 said:


> I'm considering getting a Lyr 3 (with multibit DAC) before they all get sold out. However, I am quite concerned because of reports saying these Schiit amps have fried headphones (there are a couple of these situations in this thread). Has Schiit found out/eliminated the cause of this?


I've used a Lyr 3, with many different tubes, for the last 3 years. The last year and a half, the Lyr 3 has been my pre-amp to my Jot 2.

I'm not aware of reports of Lyr 3 damage to headphones. Maybe you should provide links to said damage.


----------



## Ripper2860

Asterisk3095 said:


> I'm considering getting a Lyr 3 (with multibit DAC) before they all get sold out. However, I am quite concerned because of reports saying these Schiit amps have fried headphones (there are a couple of these situations in this thread). Has Schiit found out/eliminated the cause of this?


Old news.  The issue was rare, in early units, and was subsequently resolved.  As long as you are not buying older units via the used market you should be okey-dokey.


----------



## Odin412

The newly arrived Psvane 6SN7 has replaced the LISST. The new tube is quite tall (it sits on a tube socket).


----------



## chef8489

Who all are using a socket saver for their Lyr 3 and how much does it raise the tube? I'm contemplating getting one. I used one for the vali 2 but never on my Lyr 3 in the past.


----------



## dilbertprogrammer

chef8489 said:


> Who all are using a socket saver for their Lyr 3 and how much does it raise the tube? I'm contemplating getting one. I used one for the vali 2 but never on my Lyr 3 in the past.



I am using one.  It essentially make the base of the tube flush with the top of the Lyr3 case (as shown above in @Odin412's picture).


----------



## j0val

Maybe this should be in a Lyr+ Tube rolling thread, but I came here to say that the Shug treasure tube no longer needs a socket saver to fit.


----------



## chef8489

Well I threw one in. So if I choose to remove it, how have you guys been successful at removing it?


----------



## dilbertprogrammer

chef8489 said:


> Well I threw one in. So if I choose to remove it, how have you guys been successful at removing it?


I will find a tube which pins fit snuggly in the adapter and then use the same slow rocking back and forth motion while pulling upward like you would normally do with the tube by itself. Haven't had a reason to remove mine though.


----------



## Mr Trev

chef8489 said:


> Well I threw one in. So if I choose to remove it, how have you guys been successful at removing it?


Suction? Just slap your lips on the case and start sucking. Best let the amp cool down first tho.

In all seriousity, maybe try using a pick or 2 inside the keyhole to hook onto the adapter and pull it up


----------



## Ripper2860

Needle-nosed pliers worked for me when I got my 1st tube riser.  The Tubemonger ones hold a death-grip on the tube so after switching to the TM riser I've never had an issue.  It always comes out with the tube.


----------



## cgb3 (Sep 3, 2022)

chef8489 said:


> Who all are using a socket saver for their Lyr 3 and how much does it raise the tube? I'm contemplating getting one. I used one for the vali 2 but never on my Lyr 3 in the past.


I started with socket savers when I substituted 6f8g tubes (requires an adapter) for my 6sn7 tubes in my Lyr. The adapter raised the tube flush to the top cover of the Lyr.

Purchased a 6sn7 socket saver to fit a wide base PSVanne "tennis ball" (I didn't pay that price) into the Lyr. Now, it's a personal preference. I like to see all the valve, so my standard 6sn7 tubes are seated into a socket saver.


----------



## bcowen

Ripper2860 said:


> Needle-nosed pliers worked for me when I got my 1st tube riser.  The Tubemonger ones hold a death-grip on the tube so after switching to the TM riser I've never had an issue.  *It always comes out with the tube.*


Which kind of negates the purpose of a socket saver.   🤣


----------



## Ripper2860 (Sep 3, 2022)

I Iike to refer to it as a 'Tube Riser' as opposed to a socket saver for that very reason. I gave up on 'Socket Savers' and saving my Lyr 3 recessed socket long ago and just went for heat reduction and fit.  😉


----------



## Thetaburn

Just got my first hybrid tube amp, a used Lyr3. 

With the stock tube it sounds exactly the same as a solid state amp.

Was wondering if the experienced members could recommend a tube that would give my Hifiman He1000v2 more depth and holographic presentation. 

I am open to using a tube adapter if it's safe.


----------



## jonathan c

Ripper2860 said:


> I Iike to refer to it as a 'Tube Riser' as opposed to a socket saver for that very reason. I gave up on 'Socket Savers' and saving my Lyr 3 recessed socket long ago and just went for heat reduction and fit.  😉


Heat reduction is another big bonus from using the @Deyan 6J5+6J5 —> 6SN7 adapter in Lyr 3. The tubes get hot, the Lyr body gets merely warm - and not that much.


----------



## chef8489

Thetaburn said:


> Just got my first hybrid tube amp, a used Lyr3.
> 
> With the stock tube it sounds exactly the same as a solid state amp.
> 
> ...


Vintage tubes I have found to always sound the best with any of my headphones. Check out the 50s and 60s foton 6n8s, Westinghouse d getter 6sn7,  Ken rad vt-231, 50s Sylvania 6sn7


----------



## Thetaburn

Newbie question.

Can the Lyr3 with a 6sn7 adapter to 2C51 / 396a / 5670 use those tubes?

Thanks in advance for your reply.


----------



## chef8489

Thetaburn said:


> Newbie question.
> 
> Can the Lyr3 with a 6sn7 adapter to 2C51 / 396a / 5670 use those tubes?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your reply.


Yes
shown here


----------



## chef8489

Man I really missed this amp. I have a 1954 Foton 6n8s in it currently and love this tube. I remember the 50s Fotons being one of my favorite tubes. It is just so warm and rich yet the highs are still quite present.


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> Man I really missed this amp. I have a 1954 Foton 6n8s in it currently and love this tube. I remember the 50s Fotons being one of my favorite tubes. It is just so warm and rich yet the highs are still quite present.


Guessing it's a pretty big step up from that JJ?


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> Guessing it's a pretty big step up from that JJ?


Yes definitely. I appreciate you sending it to me. Thank you. The jj tube is pretty boring and sterile.


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> Yes definitely. I appreciate you sending it to me. Thank you. The jj tube is pretty boring and sterile.


Yeah, the JJ is not a favorite of mine by any means and constrains the performance the Lyr 3 is capable of.


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> Yeah, the JJ is not a favorite of mine by any means and constrains the performance the Lyr 3 is capable of.


I understand why they ship it with the amp, but it really holds this amp back.


----------



## InvisibleInk

bcowen said:


> Yeah, the JJ is not a favorite of mine by any means and constrains the performance the Lyr 3 is capable of.



It's a gateway drug to the "hard stuff" we all partake in here


----------



## chef8489

InvisibleInk said:


> It's a gateway drug to the "hard stuff" we all partake in here


I had this amp and several tubes about 2 or 3 years ago, but had to sell it off due to some financial issues and my military injuries. I was able to get a small rating and able to get a new amp and was able to get a few tubes thanks to @bcowen and I am very thrilled. I really missed this.


----------



## jonathan c

InvisibleInk said:


> It's a gateway drug to the "hard stuff" we all partake in here


….mariJJuana…☁️☁️🌈🌈…🙂🙂…?


----------



## InvisibleInk

jonathan c said:


> ….mariJJuana…☁️☁️🌈🌈…🙂🙂…?



Also improves the sound stage...


----------



## KoshNaranek

jonathan c said:


> ….mariJJuana…☁️☁️🌈🌈…🙂🙂…?


----------



## ScubaMan2017

I'm curious to see how successful the latest version of the Lyr fares. ...switchable from tube to solid state?! 2022 link. I have its prior version (Lyr 3... with an oddball RCA input card).


----------



## chef8489

Just put in a Raytheon 6sn7gtb and its warming up. I am not sure the date on it but excited to see how it compares to the Foton.


----------



## j0val

ScubaMan2017 said:


> I'm curious to see how successful the latest version of the Lyr fares. ...switchable from tube to solid state?! 2022 link. I have its prior version (Lyr 3... with an oddball RCA input card).


The Lyr+ is great so far. Slightly more detailed, but at the expense of being less warm sounding. However, sounds great with the Shug.


----------



## reg66

ScubaMan2017 said:


> I'm curious to see how successful the latest version of the Lyr fares. ...switchable from tube to solid state?! 2022 link. I have its prior version (Lyr 3... with an oddball RCA input card).


Could always check out Lyr+ thread


----------



## chef8489 (Sep 28, 2022)

Rolled in my 1950s Foton and love the thing. Only wish it had more tube glow. Here are some pretty bad pics of it. though.


----------



## malenak

chef8489 said:


> Yes definitely. I appreciate you sending it to me. Thank you. The jj tube is pretty boring and sterile.


That's interesting. For me, JJ is a very nice tube, which sounds amazing after few hours of burning. I would definitely say it sounds boring. It is very deatiled, crisp tube with great lows - textured, detailed, slightly elevated lows, but not muddy. Great for electronic music. For me, the stock Tung-Sol is boring and sterile. Psvane CVT181MKII sounds amazing in Lyr3.


----------



## chef8489

malenak said:


> That's interesting. For me, JJ is a very nice tube, which sounds amazing after few hours of burning. I would definitely say it sounds boring. It is very deatiled, crisp tube with great lows - textured, detailed, slightly elevated lows, but not muddy. Great for electronic music. For me, the stock Tung-Sol is boring and sterile. Psvane CVT181MKII sounds amazing in Lyr3.


I would disagree, at least the one I have. It made me second guess the audeze headphones I had before and love. It made the bass on them quite flat and lacking. It wasn't until I swapped out the jj tube for a nose tube that the bass was back and I was like oh there it is, I remember them now. The jj tube reminds me of a flat solid state Amp.


----------



## malenak

chef8489 said:


> I would disagree, at least the one I have. It made me second guess the audeze headphones I had before and love. It made the bass on them quite flat and lacking. It wasn't until I swapped out the jj tube for a nose tube that the bass was back and I was like oh there it is, I remember them now. The jj tube reminds me of a flat solid state Amp.


Wasn't your tube faulty? I had two Lyr 3 amps, both with different JJ tubes and every time they sounded simply better than Tung-Sol or Electro Harmonix 6SN7GTB. Now I am finding something even better than Psvane CVT181MKII.


----------



## chef8489 (Oct 3, 2022)

malenak said:


> Wasn't your tube faulty? I had two Lyr 3 amps, both with different JJ tubes and every time they sounded simply better than Tung-Sol or Electro Harmonix 6SN7GTB. Now I am finding something even better than Psvane CVT181MKII.


No the tube works fine. It's in perfect condition. This is also my second lyr 3 Amp. I had one 3 or 4 years ago.


----------



## malenak

So this will be the case, when different people have just different taste.


----------



## tafens

malenak said:


> So this will be the case, when different people have just different taste.


Very true. It all depends on what one likes  
In my personal experience and taste, I could just swap around what you said about the JJ and Tung-Sol tubes, the JJ being the more boring one to me 🙃
I quite agree though that the Psvane CV181-II is an amazing tube in the Lyr3


----------



## benjifx19

Just made a classified post for a black LYR 3 if anyone is interested in selling and moving on to LYR+


----------



## cgb3

Ripper2860 said:


> Geez.  I had less crap when I developed my own film in a darkroom.


But how do you replace that D76 smell?


----------



## cgb3

KoshNaranek said:


> I know that you must feel poorly, but keep in mind that it is all small stuff. Nobody died, just an amp.
> 
> Here is something that may make you feel better.


Only if you send a dram or two my way. 
I've never had any Japanese whiskey, but I've heard good reports. If they could only spell whiskey.


----------



## cgb3

Ripper2860 said:


> I'm good with RCA and Sylvania.  Not so much with GE.


Come on man, don't be a hater, like Bcowen.


----------



## cgb3

tafens said:


> I turn amp off, let tube cool down to touchable temperature, change tube, turn amp on, let tube warm up for a few minutes, listen.
> 
> I’ve heard that fingerprints is supposed to be bad for tubes too but I don’t think so. It’s a tube with ordinary glass, not a halogen light bulb. Perhaps if one doesn’t want to deface it with fingerprints or accidentally scratch the print, but otherwise no problem.


Get yourself a silicone pad (an example, there's many available). Shut the unit off for 5 minutes (allow the caps to drain). Grip the tube with the silicone pad and pull vertically, without rocking the tube.


----------



## cgb3

scottshields said:


> Can those with experience here comment on what I perceive to be experiencing with a new Lyr3.  I have this tube and am using a bifrost2 as a source listening with Meze Empyreans which are also less than a moth old.  I've heard lots of stories about gear break in periods but the only one's I've really given any merit to are those regarding tubes.  The tube has ~25hrs on it and the Amp slightly more overall.  I typically turn all my gear on as I start my work day.  I seem to hear a very noticeable improvement in overall sound but especially soundstage in the afternoon hours after everything's been on for a while (a few hours).  That seems to long to be normal gear warm up right?  Is what I feel I'm experiencing the changing sounds of Tube burn in?


I have that same tube, with the Lyr 3. Very enjoyable as a preamp to my Jotunheim 2. I warm my Lyr 3 up 1 hour before listening. My Bifrost 2/64 is on constantly.


----------



## cgb3

jjflemin said:


> Hey all, I'm having an issue with my Lyr 3. Was in the middle of listening tonight and suddenly heard a pop followed by dead silence. Powered down the unit, unplugged it and let it cool then tried switching tubes without any change. Then I noticed there was no click after turning it on like there normally is when the relay connects to the output. Any ideas from experienced troubleshooters here? Worried I may be out of luck as I am the 2nd owner of the amp and warranty service is specified for original purchaser only.


I performed a dunderhead procedure on my Lyr 3. Knew better, did it anyway.

My Lyr 3 required a new board. $200 + my postage to send it back. I was happy.


----------



## Hyde00

Hello guys! I recently bought a Lyr 3 from a fellow head-fi-er!

It came with 3 tubes:

Stock JJ 6SN7 Tube
PSVANE 6SN7-SE (Tennis Ball)
Sylvania 6SN7 (box doesn't say anything else, is this 2 hole?)

I haven't read through all 331 pages on this thread yet LOL. Only skim through it quickly and seems like those have been recommended here and there. The seller said the Sylvania has been burn in and indeed it sound the best out of 3, the PSVANE is new so I'm in the process of burning it in.

I do have a question, is there other tube out there that has more *forward vocal*? Sylvania sounds great right now but I just wish vocal is a tad more forward. Or should I just keep burning in the tubes? Or is that just how Lyr 3 sounds? From my short demo Jot 2 has very forward vocal but a bit lean sounding. Somewhere half the difference would be great.

Thanks!


----------



## chef8489

Hyde00 said:


> Hello guys! I recently bought a Lyr 3 from a fellow head-fi-er!
> 
> It came with 3 tubes:
> 
> ...


One of my favorite tubes in the lyr 3 is a nos Foton 6n8s from the 50s. They can be had pretty cheap as well.


----------



## Hyde00

chef8489 said:


> One of my favorite tubes in the lyr 3 is a nos Foton 6n8s from the 50s. They can be had pretty cheap as well.


Cool I'll go check those out, thanks!


----------



## Pondoro

chef8489 said:


> One of my favorite tubes in the lyr 3 is a nos Foton 6n8s from the 50s. They can be had pretty cheap as well.


Do you have a favorite seller?


----------



## chef8489

Pondoro said:


> Do you have a favorite seller?


Probably someone from Ukraine
I ordered from here and got a 52 and 53. They take time but they are good prices. You should be able to request 50s.
here


----------



## ThurstonX

Greetings, all.  Hoping someone can help with this question.

I've got an original Lyr, which can take a lot of tubes the Lyr 2 cannot (e.g., 6N1P with its 0.6 mA heater current).  I see that ilikepooters rolled a 6N1P ( https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/page-238#post-15027686 ); I'm assuming that's on the Lyr 3.  Given that the Lyr 3's "native" tube is the 6SN7 (0.6 mA heater), I'm hopeful that pretty much any tube the Lyr OG can take, the Lyr 3 and even the latest Lyr+ can take with proper adapters .... *BUT* I'm basing that strictly on heater current values, and these statements from Jason:

"Lyr 2 uses two 6BZ7 dual triodes, and yes–you can substitute any 6DJ8/6922/ECC88 type tube, including NOS, cryo-treated, voodoo-blessed, hand-assembled by elves, etc. Due to the DC heaters, we do not recommend using 6N1P tube types, or any tube that needs more than 415mA heater current."
and
"But…I still have all these tubes for the old Lyr!"
"Yes, and if you want to use them, you can still use them in Lyr 3, with an adapter. Lyr 3’s plate voltage isn’t very different than Lyr or Lyr 2."

Given that I've rolled plenty of 6SN7s and equivalents in my Lyr OG, it *seems* like a reasonably safe assumption, but after so much reading and not enough knowledge, my head is spinning.

Can anyone add to that?  Am I just wishcasting my tube collection to miraculously double?  Obviously some of the Lyr OG tubes are fine in the Lyr 3 (E88CCs, et al.). I'm mostly interested in a few exotics like the E288CC, for example.

Cheers.


----------



## Pondoro

chef8489 said:


> Probably someone from Ukraine
> I ordered from here and got a 52 and 53. They take time but they are good prices. You should be able to request 50s.
> here


I contacted him. I need to buy something from Ukraine, this could be it.


----------



## Hyde00

chef8489 said:


> Probably someone from Ukraine
> I ordered from here and got a 52 and 53. They take time but they are good prices. You should be able to request 50s.
> here


It seems like shipping to Canada could take a long time.  I managed to find another seller with batch from 60s, would those sound different?


----------



## chef8489 (Oct 25, 2022)

Hyde00 said:


> It seems like shipping to Canada could take a long time.  I managed to find another seller with batch from 60s, would those sound different?


I've only heard the ones from the 50s, but I'd imagine they would be similar.


----------



## Hyde00

chef8489 said:


> I've only heard the ones from the 50s, but I'd imagine they would be similar.


lol ok I'll give it a try then, at least as you said it's not too expensive.  I'm just not sure if I could wait 2+ months...... LOL.

Will give this a go and update you guys later, thanks!


----------



## Hyde00

On a random note, any chance anyone has *compared Lyr 3 to Project Ember II*?

A long time ago a nice fellow on head-fi lend me his Project Ember II to try with Mullard 12AT7WA / CV4024 tube, it was the first time I can hear distinct forward direction in any audio gear ever.

Wondering if I should pick one up so can I A/B with the Lyr 3.  That or patiently wait for the NOS Foton 6N8S LOL.  I guess I'm impatient........ sigh.........


----------



## Mr Trev

Hyde00 said:


> On a random note, any chance anyone has *compared Lyr 3 to Project Ember II*?
> 
> A long time ago a nice fellow on head-fi lend me his Project Ember II to try with Mullard 12AT7WA / CV4024 tube, it was the first time I can hear distinct forward direction in any audio gear ever.
> 
> Wondering if I should pick one up so can I A/B with the Lyr 3.  That or patiently wait for the NOS Foton 6N8S LOL.  I guess I'm impatient........ sigh.........


You could do both.
just saying


----------



## Hyde00

Mr Trev said:


> You could do both.
> just saying


Yes but $$$$$$ LOL.  Like all problems in life.


----------



## Mr Trev

Hyde00 said:


> Yes but $$$$$$ LOL.  Like all problems in life.


You can also get an adapter to use the Foton in the Ember
just saying


----------



## Hyde00

Mr Trev said:


> You can also get an adapter to use the Foton in the Ember
> just saying


That's true, conversely could Lyr 3 run 12AT7 tubes with an adapter?


----------



## Mr Trev

Hyde00 said:


> That's true, conversely could Lyr 3 run 12AT7 tubes with an adapter?


Sure! Why not.

I probably should defer to people who actually own a Lyr3, but I'm pretty sure I've read about folks using adapters for little tubes


----------



## bcowen

Hyde00 said:


> That's true, conversely could Lyr 3 run 12AT7 tubes with an adapter?


Maybe.  The 12AT7 has 3x the gain of a 6SN7.  You won't damage anything by trying it, but you might get distortion if the excess gain overloads the circuit.  The Vali 2 (also a hybrid) can run a 12AT7 without any issue, so maybe the Lyr 3 will do so too.


----------



## bcowen

Hyde00 said:


> It seems like shipping to Canada could take a long time.  I managed to find another seller with batch from 60s, would those sound different?


In a word, yes.  The 1950's dates are better than anything 1960 or later.  The best ones are the 1951 - (part of)** 1956 with the ribbed plates, and the next best are the other 1956's and 1957 - 1959 with the smooth plates.  While the ribbed / smooth plates are pretty close, the 1950's versus 1960's have a pretty big difference.  

** I have 1956 dates with both ribbed and smooth plates, so that must have been the year they changed the plate style.


----------



## Mr Trev

bcowen said:


> In a word, yes.  The 1950's dates are better than anything 1960 or later.  The best ones are the 1951 - (part of)** 1956 with the ribbed plates, and the next best are the other 1956's and 1957 - 1959 with the smooth plates.  While the ribbed / smooth plates are pretty close, the 1950's versus 1960's have a pretty big difference.
> 
> ** I have 1956 dates with both ribbed and smooth plates, so that must have been the year they changed the plate style.


To follow up on Bill's sage advice, I'll add the disclaimer that there _can_ be issues with the solder in the pins on the Soviet era tubes. I do have a later 50's vintage Foton (un-ribbed for no-one's pleasure) and it is prone to be a tad noisy - intermittent hissy type noisy. I figure a resolder would help, but I'm a lazy, lazy man


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> To follow up on Bill's sage advice, I'll add the disclaimer that there _*can*_* be issues with the solder in the pins on the Soviet era tubes.* I do have a later 50's vintage Foton (un-ribbed for no-one's pleasure) and it is prone to be a tad noisy - intermittent hissy type noisy. I figure a resolder would help, but I'm a lazy, lazy man


Very true, and good that you pointed it out.


----------



## Hyde00

bcowen said:


> Maybe.  The 12AT7 has 3x the gain of a 6SN7.  You won't damage anything by trying it, but you might get distortion if the excess gain overloads the circuit.  The Vali 2 (also a hybrid) can run a 12AT7 without any issue, so maybe the Lyr 3 will do so too.


Yeah I just had good memory of Project Ember II + Mullard CV4024 (12AT7WA), but it's memory so I have no clue how accurate it is anymore (probably terribly inaccurate).

So I was wondering if I should pick up Project Ember II again or just try to buy a Mullard CV4024 and run it on my Lyr 3 LOL.


bcowen said:


> In a word, yes.  The 1950's dates are better than anything 1960 or later.  The best ones are the 1951 - (part of)** 1956 with the ribbed plates, and the next best are the other 1956's and 1957 - 1959 with the smooth plates.  While the ribbed / smooth plates are pretty close, the 1950's versus 1960's have a pretty big difference.
> 
> ** I have 1956 dates with both ribbed and smooth plates, so that must have been the year they changed the plate style.


Ah crap...... I already bought it and the seller shipped it.  Lessoned learned for tubes, dates are very important.

LOL kind of remembered now why I decided to not go with tube route a long time ago.  Seems so complicated.....


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> In a word, yes.  The 1950's dates are better than anything 1960 or later.  The best ones are the 1951 - (part of)** 1956 with the ribbed plates, and the next best are the other 1956's and 1957 - 1959 with the smooth plates.  While the ribbed / smooth plates are pretty close, the 1950's versus 1960's have a pretty big difference.
> 
> ** I have 1956 dates with both ribbed and smooth plates, so that must have been the year they changed the plate style.


Well guess I am unfortunate with only a 1952, 1953, and 1954. None of which you mentioned lol. They all sound good though.


----------



## Ripper2860

bcowen said:


> Maybe.  The 12AT7 has 3x the gain of a 6SN7.  You won't damage anything by trying it, but you might get distortion if the excess gain overloads the circuit.  The Vali 2 (also a hybrid) can run a 12AT7 without any issue, so maybe the Lyr 3 will do so too.


I can attest that Lyr 3 runs 12AT7-family tubes just fine with the appropriate adapter.


----------



## Hyde00

chef8489 said:


> Well guess I am unfortunate with only a 1952, 1953, and 1954. None of which you mentioned lol. They all sound good though.


I think he mentioned the best ones are 1951 ~ 1956 (as a range), so I think you're included in that bracket. 


Ripper2860 said:


> I can attest that Lyr 3 runs 12AT7-family tubes just fine with the appropriate adapter.


lol awesome, that's good to hear, maybe this is a cheaper route to go rather than buying an entire new amp LOL. 

(granted, Project Ember II amp might still sound different than Lyr 3 amp even when using same tube)


----------



## bcowen

chef8489 said:


> Well guess I am unfortunate with only a 1952, 1953, and 1954. None of which you mentioned lol. They all sound good though.


1951 - 1956, inclusive.  Better?   🤣


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> 1951 - 1956, inclusive.  Better?   🤣


Ah ok lol sorry some reason missed the hyphen in there. Yes these are great tubes. I do l9ve the sound lol.


----------



## Hyde00 (Oct 27, 2022)

Ripper2860 said:


> I can attest that Lyr 3 runs 12AT7-family tubes just fine with the appropriate adapter.


Oh just out of curiosity, in general is there any advantage or disadvantage to use 12AT7 family on Lyr 3?  Or is 6SN7 generally more well regarded.  Or it's a very complex question and they're just "different"?

Sorry I know you originally mentioned it to answer my question regarding Mullard 12AT7WA / CV4024.


----------



## bcowen

Hyde00 said:


> Oh just out of curiosity, in general is there any advantage or disadvantage to use 12AT7 family on Lyr 3?  Or is 6SN7 generally more well regarded.  Or it's a very complex question and they're just "different"?
> 
> Sorry I know you originally mentioned it to answer my question regarding Mullard 12AT7WA / CV4024.


It probably depends more on the particular tube than the tube type.  If you really want to hear what a 12AT7 can do, try one of these.  It's in a whole 'nuther league than the Mullard IMO.

https://pulsetubestore.com/products...4-12at7-factory-tested-plug-play-ready-to-use


----------



## ThurstonX

bcowen said:


> It probably depends more on the particular tube than the tube type.  If you really want to hear what a 12AT7 can do, try one of these.  It's in a whole 'nuther league than the Mullard IMO.
> 
> https://pulsetubestore.com/products...4-12at7-factory-tested-plug-play-ready-to-use


Just got one of those and of the 1956 square getter version.  The adapters can't get here soon enough.  I'll be rolling them in a Lyr+, but still 6SN7-based.


----------



## DougD

bcowen said:


> It probably depends more on the particular tube than the tube type.  If you really want to hear what a 12AT7 can do, try one of these.  It's in a whole 'nuther league than the Mullard IMO.
> 
> https://pulsetubestore.com/products...4-12at7-factory-tested-plug-play-ready-to-use


Oddly enough, I have that tube ... it's really the only one I've bought to date without much of a real use when I bought it. (Went for the hype, a while back.) So now I have just ordered an adapter, also from PulseTubeStore, so I can try it in the Lyr3. Thanks for the advice!


----------



## bcowen

ThurstonX said:


> Just got one of those and of the 1956 square getter version.  The adapters can't get here soon enough.  I'll be rolling them in a Lyr+, but still 6SN7-based.


Cool!  I only have the '57, so be very interested to hear what you think of it versus the '56.


----------



## bcowen

DougD said:


> Oddly enough, I have that tube ... it's really the only one I've bought to date without much of a real use when I bought it. (Went for the hype, a while back.) So now I have just ordered an adapter, also from PulseTubeStore, so I can try it in the Lyr3. Thanks for the advice!


I went for the hype too.  But well worth it, as this is one case where the tube lives up to (and even exceeds) the hype.  I didn't try it in the Lyr 3, but it supercharges the Vali 2 like you wouldn't believe.

Just can't remember if it was @jonathan c or @Wes S that are to blame for making me buy it.   🤣


----------



## jonathan c

bcowen said:


> I went for the hype too.  But well worth it, as this is one case where the tube lives up to (and even exceeds) the hype.  I didn't try it in the Lyr 3, but it supercharges the Vali 2 like you wouldn't believe.
> 
> Just can't remember if it was @jonathan c or @Wes S that are to blame for making me buy it.   🤣


OK, I’ll step up and take the heat like a man…


----------



## DougD (Oct 29, 2022)

DougD said:


> Oddly enough, I have that tube ... it's really the only one I've bought to date without much of a real use when I bought it. (Went for the hype, a while back.) So now I have just ordered an adapter, also from PulseTubeStore, so I can try it in the Lyr3. Thanks for the advice!



I regret using the word "hype", which can have negative connotations. The excitement behind the recommendations on this tube, x-months ago, was entirely genuine, AFAICT.

I also regret quoting & replying to myself, that's a dubious practice.

But I do not regret listening last night to (disc 1 of) the new release of Revolver, remastered by Giles Martin ... that's glorious. Avail on Qobuz in 24-96.


----------



## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> OK, I’ll step up and take the heat like a man…


I *do* remember who was responsible for this, Mr. @jonathan c .   🤣   I never fail to get at least one comment from a total stranger when I wear this out in public.  So you're still 'da man.


----------



## tafens

bcowen said:


> In a word, yes.  The 1950's dates are better than anything 1960 or later.  The best ones are the 1951 - (part of)** 1956 with the ribbed plates, and the next best are the other 1956's and 1957 - 1959 with the smooth plates.  While the ribbed / smooth plates are pretty close, the 1950's versus 1960's have a pretty big difference.
> 
> ** I have 1956 dates with both ribbed and smooth plates, so that must have been the year they changed the plate style.


I wonder what they did in 1960 to make them sound so different?


----------



## bcowen

tafens said:


> I wonder what they did in 1960 to make them sound so different?


Don't know for sure.  The plates have the same construction appearance but a slightly lighter color to them.  Metallurgy change or variance, perhaps?


----------



## Hyde00

bcowen said:


> It probably depends more on the particular tube than the tube type.  If you really want to hear what a 12AT7 can do, try one of these.  It's in a whole 'nuther league than the Mullard IMO.
> 
> https://pulsetubestore.com/products...4-12at7-factory-tested-plug-play-ready-to-use


Ohhhh yes I remember a friend on head-fi telling me to buy those footscray tubes, and he had 2 of them on his schiit mjolnir 2 and swear by them.


ThurstonX said:


> Just got one of those and of the 1956 square getter version.  The adapters can't get here soon enough.  I'll be rolling them in a Lyr+, but still 6SN7-based.





DougD said:


> Oddly enough, I have that tube ... it's really the only one I've bought to date without much of a real use when I bought it. (Went for the hype, a while back.) So now I have just ordered an adapter, also from PulseTubeStore, so I can try it in the Lyr3. Thanks for the advice!


Lol looking forward to you guys' impressions. 


tafens said:


> I wonder what they did in 1960 to make them sound so different?


Yeahhhhh unfortunately the seller already shipped them so let's just hope mine is not terrible (dated 1960s).


----------



## bcowen

Hyde00 said:


> Ohhhh yes I remember a friend on head-fi telling me to buy those footscray tubes, and he had 2 of them on his schiit mjolnir 2 and swear by them.
> 
> 
> Lol looking forward to you guys' impressions.
> ...


The 1960's are good sounding tubes, just not to the same level as the '50's to my ears.  I'd rather listen to a '60's Foton any day than a JJ, a GE, a Philips ECG, most of the non-boutique Chinese 6SN7's, etc.


----------



## chef8489

bcowen said:


> The 1960's are good sounding tubes, just not to the same level as the '50's to my ears.  I'd rather listen to a '60's Foton any day than a JJ, a GE, a Philips ECG, most of the non-boutique Chinese 6SN7's, etc.


Only thing about the Fotons is they don't have much tube glow at all. There is barely any at all. Its like the wires dont heat up much at all.


----------



## tafens

chef8489 said:


> Only thing about the Fotons is they don't have much tube glow at all. There is barely any at all. Its like the wires dont heat up much at all.


The amount of glow can differ from tube to tube even of the same type and manufacture depending on how much of the heater wire is visible from behind the other elements. As long as it gets hot its ok. With that said though, a nice amount of glow is very nice! 

Unfortunately my MELZ 1578 has no visible glow at all, but I gather they’re just built that way.


----------



## chef8489

tafens said:


> The amount of glow can differ from tube to tube even of the same type and manufacture depending on how much of the heater wire is visible from behind the other elements. As long as it gets hot its ok. With that said though, a nice amount of glow is very nice!
> 
> Unfortunately my MELZ 1578 has no visible glow at all, but I gather they’re just built that way.


I understand that.. I love a good tube glow, but Ill take the sound of the Fotons over the glow of the JJ anyday.


----------



## Hyde00

chef8489 said:


> Only thing about the Fotons is they don't have much tube glow at all. There is barely any at all. Its like the wires dont heat up much at all.


Yeah I've noticed none of the 6SN7 tubes I tried glow much or if any at all.  I have the stock JJ, 1 Sylvania, 1 PSVANE Tennis Ball, and my friend lend me his 1 Sylvania, 1 Melz, 1 unknown Chinese tube.

Which was quite different than when I had Vali 2+ before and almost all the 6922/E88CC had some glow more or less.

I kind of wish Schiit kept the white LED light inside the case, to my understanding that they had it in the earlier versions but I think they removed it on Vali 2+ and Lyr 3.


----------



## Mr Trev

Hyde00 said:


> Yeah I've noticed none of the 6SN7 tubes I tried glow much or if any at all.  I have the stock JJ, 1 Sylvania, 1 PSVANE Tennis Ball, and my friend lend me his 1 Sylvania, 1 Melz, 1 unknown Chinese tube.
> 
> Which was quite different than when I had Vali 2+ before and almost all the 6922/E88CC had some glow more or less.
> 
> I kind of wish Schiit kept the white LED light inside the case, to my understanding that they had it in the earlier versions but I think they removed it on Vali 2+ and Lyr 3.


Gonna downvote you on this one. That LED is/was ass. Sweaty hairy ass.


----------



## Hyde00

Mr Trev said:


> Gonna downvote you on this one. That LED is/was ass. Sweaty hairy ass.


LOL I looked up some old pic, I think it was just uneven lit.

They need it like...... around it evenly lit then it would be nice.  Maybe on Lyr++ LOL.


----------



## Mr Trev

Hyde00 said:


> LOL I looked up some old pic, I think it was just uneven lit.
> 
> They need it like...... around it evenly lit then it would be nice.  Maybe on Lyr++ LOL.


The only LED implementation I like is the kind like G1217 does (Ember for example). The LED inside the socket illuminating the tube.
But that's just me and my LED shaming ways.
also, it doesn't exactly work with 6SN7 tubes…


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> Gonna downvote you on this one. That LED is/was ass.* Sweaty hairy ass.*


Thank you for that just as I'm sitting down to dinner.  Not.


----------



## jonathan c

Mr Trev said:


> Gonna downvote you on this one. That LED is/was ass. Sweaty hairy ass.


You seem to have quite the knowledge about this….🤔🤣….


----------



## LobalWarming

Mr Trev said:


> The only LED implementation I like is the kind like G1217 does (Ember for example). The LED inside the socket illuminating the tube.
> But that's just me and my LED shaming ways.
> also, it doesn't exactly work with 6SN7 tubes…


Works fine with 6SN7. 
I installed one of those 1kW LEDs in my Solstice. Not only does it 'illuminate' the 6SN7 - very brightly - also resolders the pins. For about 5 seconds.


----------



## Hyde00 (Nov 1, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> The only LED implementation I like is the kind like G1217 does (Ember for example). The LED inside the socket illuminating the tube.
> But that's just me and my LED shaming ways.
> also, it doesn't exactly work with 6SN7 tubes…


Oh yes I was going to say, I had a Project Polaris before and also borrowed an Ember for a while.  Really liked how it looked.

But I think Ember had a SMD LED in the middle under the tube, which worked since there's no peg in the middle for 6922/E88CC type tubes.

I think the 6SN7 peg in the middle prevent it to have SMD LED in the middle.  Oh also doesn't help it has black base where 6922/E88CC is just glass throughout.

Old pic, couldn't find picture from when I borrowed Ember.  Sorry I know Project Polaris is not tube amp.  

I'm in the MOAR LED for Lyr 3 train LOL.


----------



## Ripper2860 (Nov 2, 2022)

Mr Trev said:


> Gonna downvote you on this one. That LED is/was ass. Sweaty hairy ass.


If there was ever a prime example of TMI, this is it!


----------



## Mr Trev

Ripper2860 said:


> If there was ever a prime example of TMI, this is it!


What can I say. I really, really dislike those LEDs


----------



## Hyde00

Random note, so I have a socket saver on my Lyr 3.  Right now it's great because it lift the tube high enough for better heat dissipation also I don't have to worry about wearing out tube socket.

But once I settle on the tube I like I might not swap tube as frequent, I might take out the socket saver and plug it in directly then I have enough room to put my tube amp under my monitor on the side (since my monitor is on a riser and once the tube is lowered it will fit).

Now the issue is.......... socket saver on Lyr 3 pretty much is inside the case........ how do I get it out???


----------



## Hyde00

Like as is it will fit exactly but I'm worry if it dissipate heat I want it at least a little bit further away from monitor.

And as you can see the socket saver is flush with the case.


----------



## Mr Trev (Nov 23, 2022)

Hyde00 said:


> Random note, so I have a socket saver on my Lyr 3.  Right now it's great because it lift the tube high enough for better heat dissipation also I don't have to worry about wearing out tube socket.
> 
> But once I settle on the tube I like I might not swap tube as frequent, I might take out the socket saver and plug it in directly then I have enough room to put my tube amp under my monitor on the side (since my monitor is on a riser and once the tube is lowered it will fit).
> 
> Now the issue is.......... socket saver on Lyr 3 pretty much is inside the case........ how do I get it out???


The trick is to find your hottest running tube. After the amp has been running maxed out for a min. 1 hour, quickly yank the tube out and jab your fingers into the socket saver. Hopefully it'll be hot enough to sear onto the flesh of your fingers and should pop right out while you flinch in pain.

Seriously… you might be able to get a dental pick or 2 into the centre key way to help pull the saver out - kinda like a oil seal extractor (providing there's enough of a lip to hook on to). Just make sure the amp is well powered down before you decide to start poking round with metal objects.


----------



## Hyde00

Mr Trev said:


> The trick is to find your hottest running tube. After the amp has been running maxed out for a min. 1 hour, quickly yank the tube out and jab your fingers into the socket saver. Hopefully it'll be hot enough to sear onto the flesh of your fingers and should pop right out while you flinch in pain.
> 
> Seriously… you might be able to get a dental pick or 2 into the centre key way to help pull the saver out - kinda like a oil seal extractor (providing there's enough of a lip to hook on to). Just make sure the amp is well powered down before you decide to start poking round with metal objects.


So what you're saying is, I need to be like Army of the Darkness but instead of chainsaw I need tiny tiny crowbar for hand then I'll be set.  

LOL but yes on a serious note, I also feel like I might need something that can locked onto or leverage the center hole in the middle to pull it up.  I'll let it cool down first to see if there's any "edge" that I can grip onto.

Will keep you guys updated, thanks!


----------



## jonathan c (Nov 23, 2022)

Hyde00 said:


> Random note, so I have a socket saver on my Lyr 3.  Right now it's great because it lift the tube high enough for better heat dissipation also I don't have to worry about wearing out tube socket.
> 
> But once I settle on the tube I like I might not swap tube as frequent, I might take out the socket saver and plug it in directly then I have enough room to put my tube amp under my monitor on the side (since my monitor is on a riser and once the tube is lowered it will fit).
> 
> Now the issue is.......... socket saver on Lyr 3 pretty much is inside the case........ how do I get it out???


It is a bit of work. Take out the tube, undo the screws in the back, take off the volume knob, squeeze down on each side of the top plate to slide it forward. Then separate it from the chassis. Take out socket saver. Then everything in reverse.


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> The trick is to find your hottest running tube. After the amp has been running maxed out for a min. 1 hour, quickly yank the tube out and jab your fingers into the socket saver. Hopefully it'll be hot enough to sear onto the flesh of your fingers and should pop right out while you flinch in pain.


That's kinda what I do, except I grab the glass on the tube.  Hotter than the base, and the melted flesh fusion is more thorough.   🤣 

Or this:


----------



## Mr Trev (Nov 23, 2022)

jonathan c said:


> It is a bit of work. Take out the tube, undo the screws in the back, take off the volume knob, squeeze down on each side of the top plate to slide it forward. Then separate it from the chassis. Take out socket saver. Then everything in reverse.


Sure, you could do it that way… 🥱


bcowen said:


> That's kinda what I do, except I grab the glass on the tube.  Hotter than the base, and the melted flesh fusion is more thorough.   🤣
> 
> Or this:


And as extra incentive… chicks dig scars


----------



## bcowen

Mr Trev said:


> And as extra incentive… chicks dig scars


LOL!  Adds texture to the fingertips which can be useful.   🤣


----------



## Hyde00

jonathan c said:


> It is a bit of work. Take out the tube, undo the screws in the back, take off the volume knob, squeeze down on each side of the top plate to slide it forward. Then separate it from the chassis. Take out socket saver. Then everything in reverse.


lol I guess that's the "proper" way eh, I'm trying to avoid it but if I can't get it out any other way I might have to resort to this.


bcowen said:


> That's kinda what I do, except I grab the glass on the tube.  Hotter than the base, and the melted flesh fusion is more thorough.   🤣
> 
> Or this:


lol mine is still below the case, not enough space to grip.


----------



## bcowen

Hyde00 said:


> lol I guess that's the "proper" way eh, I'm trying to avoid it but if I can't get it out any other way I might have to resort to this.
> 
> lol mine is still below the case, not enough space to grip.


🤣

Well, it's best to follow @jonathan c 's method.  That way you can swap out the fuse at the same time.  🤣🤣


----------



## Mr Trev

Something that just popped in my head…
Anybody know what the size of the keyway for octal sockets is? I was wondering if you could find something that could be threaded into it for removal - kinda like changing filters on Ety IEMs . Sure it'd chew up the saver a bit, but like DK said "Give Me Convenience Or Give Me Death"


----------



## Hyde00

bcowen said:


> 🤣
> 
> Well, it's best to follow @jonathan c 's method.  That way you can swap out the fuse at the same time.  🤣🤣


You had me for a moment until I see price LOL.  On Musician Pegasus it's common to upgrade fuse it seems (not at this price).


Mr Trev said:


> Something that just popped in my head…
> Anybody know what the size of the keyway for octal sockets is? I was wondering if you could find something that could be threaded into it for removal - kinda like changing filters on Ety IEMs . Sure it'd chew up the saver a bit, but like DK said "Give Me Convenience Or Give Me Death"


Actually I checked earlier, so the hole in the middle do end and there's "edge" you can grab.  So you just need 2 outward 90 degree "pick" to insert in the middle then spread then it would lock onto the edge.

https://www.gloriousgaming.com/products/glorious-switch-puller

Imagine this, but a lot closer and also point outward.  If that makes sense....... lol.


----------



## Mr Trev

Hyde00 said:


> You had me for a moment until I see price LOL.  On Musician Pegasus it's common to upgrade fuse it seems (not at this price).
> 
> Actually I checked earlier, so the hole in the middle do end and there's "edge" you can grab.  So you just need 2 outward 90 degree "pick" to insert in the middle then spread then it would lock onto the edge.
> 
> ...


Too bad we don't live in a cartoon world, otherwise you could just use a plunger


----------



## Hyde00

Oh so I've been told in another thread that if I want to jump to the next level with Lyr 3 I should get the dual adapter from Deyan.  For Lyr 3 what would the tube type used in the dual adapter? Is it just 2 6SN7 or something else?

Also I've seen a few classified thread selling Lyr 3 with Tung Sol 6SN7GTB but it's not mentioned much here in this thread (though I didn't read through all 335 pages). Is it not a popular tube? Also how is the old production vs the new production version?


----------



## LobalWarming

Hyde00 said:


> Oh so I've been told in another thread that if I want to jump to the next level with Lyr 3 I should get the dual adapter from Deyan.  For Lyr 3 what would the tube type used in the dual adapter? Is it just 2 6SN7 or something else?
> 
> Also I've seen a few classified thread selling Lyr 3 with Tung Sol 6SN7GTB but it's not mentioned much here in this thread (though I didn't read through all 335 pages). Is it not a popular tube? Also how is the old production vs the new production version?


You would use a pair of 6J5s or 6C5s or 6P5s or... if by some shrewd bit of luck you had an amp that supports 12V tubes, could use a pair of 12J5s. 

The 6SN7 is a pair of 6J5s in a single bottle. But as we know from the prime singularity - one plate, one bottle doctrine is better for our delicate perceptions.


----------



## Hyde00

LobalWarming said:


> if by some shrewd bit of luck you had an amp that supports 12V tubes, could use a pair of 12J5s.


Maybe I don't?  Maybe I do??? 


LobalWarming said:


> You would use a pair of 6J5s or 6C5s or 6P5s


Though I wonder if I should go 6v version so at least they can share tubes LOL.

Are the 12v version cheaper normally?

Also I've been avoiding twin tube (thought it looked ridiculous visually) for so long why you guys do this to me LOL.


----------



## Ripper2860

Lyr 3 does not support 12v tubes.  It won't damage the amp but the tubes will not operate optimally given that Lyr only delivers 6v.


----------



## Hyde00 (Dec 11, 2022)

Ripper2860 said:


> Lyr 3 does not support 12v tubes.  It won't damage the amp but the tubes will not operate optimally given that Lyr only delivers 6v.


Oh yeah sorry to clarify I already have Project Solstice which supports 12v tubes.

I've been having some serious tube amp showdown (Solstice vs Lyr 3) the last few days LOL (ok I exaggerated, was mostly testing Solstice first, but will throw Magni Piety into the mix later). It's tube season!

Reason I mentioned 6v is so at least it will be usable on both amps. As oppose to buying a 12v set for Solstice and 6v set for Lyr 3.


----------



## LobalWarming (Dec 11, 2022)

You can use an adapter to connect an external 12V heater power - to use 12V tubes in Lyr as well.

To be fair, there's a larger variety of 6J5/6C5/6P5/6L5 than 12V equivalents.  However, you may have heard there's some unique, unicorn 12J5s that are exceptional.

But, why quibble about cross-platform compatibility? Tube rolling implies a herd, a fleet, perhaps an armada of tubes to select from. Sure, can't collect them all - but it's worth trying to.


----------



## Hyde00

LobalWarming said:


> You can use an adapter to connect an external 12V heater power - to use 12V tubes in Lyr as well.


Lol that sounds too complicated maybe I'll stick to 6v for Lyr 3.


LobalWarming said:


> To be fair, there's a larger variety of 6J5/6C5/6P5/6L5 than 12V equivalents. However, you may have heard there's some unique, unicorn 12J5s that are exceptional.


I did a quick research on eBay seems like the 6J5 / 12J5 pool is already way smaller than the regular 6SN7 pool. Lol we're falling into a niche of a niche.


LobalWarming said:


> But, why quibble about cross-platform compatibility? Tube rolling implies a herd, a fleet, perhaps an armada of tubes to select from. Sure, can't collect them all - but it's worth trying to.


Are you trying to tell me I should hoard collect them all like a true pokemon trainer collector?


----------



## Mr Trev (Dec 11, 2022)

Hyde00 said:


> Lol that sounds too complicated maybe I'll stick to 6v for Lyr 3.


Not complicated at all. You can get the adapters on eBay (at least I think that's where I've seen them - barring that just contact Deyan).
Once you got the adapter, just connect it to your car battery. Simple as… a simple thing?

Speaking of adapters and looking back a few posts…
You ever get that socket saver out?


----------



## Hyde00

Mr Trev said:


> Once you got the adapter, just connect it to your car battery. Simple as… a simple thing?


But.... How am I gonna put my car on my desk??? 


Mr Trev said:


> Speaking of adapters and looking back a few posts…
> You ever get that socket saver out?


Lol I got side tracked since Santa sent me a box of tubes to try so I've been tube rolling on Solstice and now I'm looking at this problem again.

I did some weird hack just now it seems to do the trick, better than melting my hand on the socket and pull LOL.


----------



## Mr Trev

Hyde00 said:


> But.... How am I gonna put my car on my desk???
> 
> Lol I got side tracked since Santa sent me a box of tubes to try so I've been tube rolling on Solstice and now I'm looking at this problem again.
> 
> I did some weird hack just now it seems to do the trick, better than melting my hand on the socket and pull LOL.


I love how you taped the needle-nose shut rather than just use a pair of vise-grips


----------



## Hyde00

Mr Trev said:


> I love how you taped the needle-nose shut rather than just use a pair of vise-grips


This is how you know when an art major do mechanical work LOL.


----------



## Hyde00

Man I don't know if I'm crazy or not, I just managed to take out the socket saver so my Lyr 3 can look more "clean".  But I kind of miss the tube poking out look, now it look too subtle LOL.

Also maybe it's the crazy audiophile side of me thinking or maybe it's nothing but...... I thought it sounded bassier with the socket saver in......... maybe I'm crazy...... will test my theory.......


----------



## jonathan c

Hyde00 said:


> Man I don't know if I'm crazy or not, I just managed to take out the socket saver so my Lyr 3 can look more "clean".  But I kind of miss the tube poking out look, now it look too subtle LOL.
> 
> Also maybe it's the crazy audiophile side of me thinking or maybe it's nothing but...... I thought it sounded bassier with the socket saver in......... maybe I'm crazy...... will test my theory.......


Other than saving ‘wear n tear’ on the tube socket, I can’t help but think that additional connections (saver pins—>tube socket) are a _potential _source of noise. 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## Pondoro

Hyde00 said:


> Man I don't know if I'm crazy or not, I just managed to take out the socket saver so my Lyr 3 can look more "clean".  But I kind of miss the tube poking out look, now it look too subtle LOL.
> 
> Also maybe it's the crazy audiophile side of me thinking or maybe it's nothing but...... I thought it sounded bassier with the socket saver in......... maybe I'm crazy...... will test my theory.......


I am so happy that no one is arguing about audiophile grade socket savers...


----------



## Hyde00

jonathan c said:


> Other than saving ‘wear n tear’ on the tube socket, I can’t help but think that additional connections (saver pins—>tube socket) are a _potential _source of noise. 🤷🏻‍♂️


LOL I think because I've been going back and forth between Lyr 3 and Project Solstice, and Solstice is NOISY on the smaller tubes (5670, 6CG7, 12AU7...... etc.), not so bad on the bigger tubes (6SN7, 12SN7...etc).

So my brain has been trained to ignore noise now LOL, and in comparison Lyr 3 is like dead silent.


Pondoro said:


> I am so happy that no one is arguing about audiophile grade socket savers...


I mean..... I don't want to start a war or anything so feel free to take my comments with grain of salt.

But in the past I do find swapping headphone cables between my headphones (about 3 of them use same type of cable) do change the sound, even swapping between my few 3.5 mm to 1/4 inch adapters and it changes the sound too.  Not better or worse, just different, also not correlated to price, in fact I liked the cheapest one LOL.

So I wouldn't be surprised if socket saver changes the sound, again will do some testing..... LOL.


----------



## jonathan c

Next phase of _nervosa…._socket saver rolling 🤣🤪…..black-base savers provide blacker backgrounds….brown-base savers muddy the sound…..🤪😳🤪😳…..


----------



## ThurstonX

I tried, but I can't resist...

As @Hyde00 mentioned, cables can sound different. I prefer my own (natch  ) to HiFiMAN's.  I've used Mogami mic wire and Litz wire to make some.  Fortunately I prefer the latter, as it's easily the least stiff; hardly any stiffness at all, in fact. It takes more prep to tin the ends, but the very hot solder ball method works well. I haven't used a stock cable in ages; only the Q701 got used after a period of comparison, but those cans are safely in a box, and I was able to re-purpose the Litz wire.

I had some fancy socket savers from Tubemonger for use in my Lyr OG.  Not to besmirch the company, as they were quite willing to replace a dodgy one, but I didn't bother with the last one that went bad, just bought a few Chinese-made off eBay.  They may be cheap, but they're certainly inexpensive by comparison. Haven't had any problems with them or the various adapters I've gotten from eBay.  But no, don't expect them to change the sound, unless one's bad.

Now, who wants to talk about vibration dampeners?!  

Oh, and as @LobalWarming noted, we might not be able to collect them all (types, I assume  ), but it is fun building the tube armada.  With my Lyr+ I've enjoyed easier rolling of the 6SN7s, but also discovering the 7N7 and ECC40 thus far; a couple of the latter have really impressed.  I've got other types to get to, but what's the hurry. I thought my collection was complete until I bought the Lyr+, then I felt that ol' itch. My inner therapist said it was OK to scratch


----------



## Hyde00

jonathan c said:


> Next phase of _nervosa…._socket saver rolling 🤣🤪…..black-base savers provide blacker backgrounds….brown-base savers muddy the sound…..🤪😳🤪😳…..





ThurstonX said:


> But no, don't expect them to change the sound, unless one's bad.


Hmmmmm I feel like there's room for exploration LOL.  

Time to start the next evolution!!!  LOLLLLLL

Also not gonna lie almost tempted to buy Tung Sol 6SN7GTB because it has brown base which is like different!  Except I later found out they were kind of like the stock tube.


ThurstonX said:


> Now, who wants to talk about vibration dampeners?!


I've seen them around but also didn't pursue it due to it looking a bit like c ring o ring LOL.  But there's probably merit to it.


ThurstonX said:


> but also discovering the 7N7 and ECC40 thus far


7N7 sounds familiar........ I've been exposed to tons of new tube codes the last week, all the numbers start to mesh together now.


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## Mr Trev

Hyde00 said:


> Hmmmmm I feel like there's room for exploration LOL.
> 
> Time to start the next evolution!!!  LOLLLLLL
> 
> ...


You think tube naming schemes are bad, wait until you see Chi-Fi DAP manf. alphabet-soup names (I think at one time there were 3 different players all named "X3" from 3 different companies. not to mention minor revisions creating the "pro" models


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## bcowen

ThurstonX said:


> Now, who wants to talk about vibration dampeners?!



The first person that mentions sorbothane is getting run out of the forum by an angry mob wielding torches and pitchforks.   🤣 



ThurstonX said:


> Oh, and as @LobalWarming noted, we might not be able to collect them all (types, I assume  ), but it is fun building the tube armada.  With my Lyr+ I've enjoyed easier rolling of the 6SN7s, but also discovering the 7N7 and ECC40 thus far; a couple of the latter have really impressed.  I've got other types to get to, but what's the hurry. I thought my collection was complete until I bought the Lyr+, then I felt that ol' itch. My inner therapist said it was OK to scratch


I like the Tungsram ECC 40, but haven't tried many varieties yet.:





When you get done with those, ECC 84's are fun too.  🤣  (needs a different adapter though)


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## reg66 (Dec 15, 2022)

Urgent, calling all CV4033 Footscray owners!!

Have bought a 12AT7 6060 CV4024 KB/FB BRIMAR RARE TRIPLE MICA 1955/57 NOS VALVE SQUARE GETTER from ebay... Now, I have a couple of 4033's footscray and was hoping to A. get the best one in the bunch from eBay and B. do some comparisons.

How to tell by which code denotes Footscray - or am I just going by year - if so, how to read the year!? Is there any year of these tubes that's better? Basically the seller is going to send me some pics in a while of my options (he/she has a number of them). Just want to make sure I get the best!!!

Any help is much appreciated

Or is it simply a case of going for the one with the best print on the glass - assuming years '55-57 were all much of a muchness in sound quality....
​


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## ThurstonX

reg66 said:


> How to tell by which code denotes Footscray - or am I just going by year - if so, how to read the year!?


Here's a good site for British tube info:
https://mullard.org/blogs/news/83886851-cv-numbers-and-uk-military-date-and-factory-codes

and another:
https://tubemaze.info/brimar-tubes-date-codes/


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## reg66

ThurstonX said:


> Here's a good site for British tube info:
> https://mullard.org/blogs/news/83886851-cv-numbers-and-uk-military-date-and-factory-codes
> 
> and another:
> https://tubemaze.info/brimar-tubes-date-codes/


Thanks. I actually have both those sites open already but looking at my CV4033's I can't see anything that resemnbles a date - is it possible they've rubbed off or am I looking in the wrong place!? 

Also, do you know if Footscay produced tubes can only be varified by date or is the factory in the lettering?

Cheers fella


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## reg66 (Dec 15, 2022)

Is that an fc (for footscray) under the little arrow? Looks more like a 'p' though so not sure...
EDIT: I have found that;
FE = STC Oldway
 FB = STC Footscray
 D = Mullard Mitcham
 DA = Mullard Blackburn
 Z = GEC Hammersmith

But, my 4033's say FD.... Well bugger me... FD = Rochester but these were sold on the forums here as Footscray. Bummer.

Here's what i found for any others wanting more info;
*Code.....  Manufacturer.................... UK Factory Location*
KB/AD......Thorn-AEI (Brimar).........................Rochester
KB/D.......Mullard Radio Valve Co. .................. Mitcham
KB/DA......Mullard Radio Valve Co. ................. Blackburn
KB/F.......STC (Standard Telephone & Cable Co.).... Paignton
KB/FD......STC ........................................... Rochester
KB/FE......STC ........................................... Oldway
KB/FB......STC ........................................... Footscray
KB/N.......STC (before 1952)......................... Footscray
KB/K.......Electronic Tubes ........................... High Wycomb
KB/L.......M.O. Valve Co. (Before 1952)
KB/Z.......M.O. Valve Co. ............................. Hammersmith
KB/ZA......M.O. Valve Co. (Before early 1957).. Gateshead
KB/Q.......English Electric Valve Co. ............... Chelmsford
KB/R.......Ferranti ....................................... Moston


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## ThurstonX

reg66 said:


> Thanks. I actually have both those sites open already but looking at my CV4033's I can't see anything that resemnbles a date - is it possible they've rubbed off or am I looking in the wrong place!?
> 
> Also, do you know if Footscay produced tubes can only be varified by date or is the factory in the lettering?
> 
> Cheers fella


As far as I know you need to see the 'FB' to confirm it's from Footscray.  The printed/painted lettering can easily rub off.  The date codes should be longer lasting.


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## ThurstonX

reg66 said:


> Is that an fc (for footscray) under the little arrow? Looks more like a 'p' though so not sure...


Pretty sure it's the KB/FB to identify the factory. Can't recall off-hand the significance of the letters under the arrow (they vary, of course).


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## reg66 (Dec 15, 2022)

ThurstonX said:


> As far as I know you need to see the 'FB' to confirm it's from Footscray.  The printed/painted lettering can easily rub off.  The date codes should be longer lasting.


Yup, cheers fella. Have just edited my post... Looks like my advertised Footscray's are actually Rochester.

OK thanks guys


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## ThurstonX

reg66 said:


> Yup, cheers fella. Habe just edited my post... Looks like my advertised Footscray's are actually Rochester.
> 
> OK thanks guys


Rochester should be 'AD' or 'FD'.

Now I see your edit


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## reg66

ThurstonX said:


> Rochester should be 'AD' or 'FD'.
> 
> Now I see your edit


Yup, deffo says FD. Oh well, we live and learn!! Research before purchase lol


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## jonathan c

ThurstonX said:


> Pretty sure it's the KB/FB to identify the factory. Can't recall off-hand the significance of the letters under the arrow (they vary, of course).


It is KB/FB for the Footscray plant identifier.


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## bcowen

jonathan c said:


> It is KB/FB for the Footscray plant identifier.


Yup....you immortalized that with this:


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## AnalogEuphoria

Anyone got experience with the 6SN7GT SYLVANIA green bad boy ?


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