# Bravo Audio V2 Review - Big Sound in a Small Package



## TheGame21x

*Introduction*  Tube amplifiers have long been a fixture of high end audio setups. Many audiophiles prefer them over “solid state” amplifiers for their distinct “tube like” sound. However, in keeping with their hi-fi reputation, tube amplifiers are typically very expensive. Enter the Bravo Audio V2, an improved version of the original hybrid tube amplifier offered by Bravo Audio, featuring better build quality by way of improved components and manufacturing. Utilizing a single 12AU7 tube, this hybrid amplifier promises that sweet tube sound that so many audiophiles love in a compact and inexpensive package. So, does the Bravo Audio V2 deliver on this promise or does it fall flat? Read on to find out.
   


​  *Design and Build Quality*  As you can see, the Bravo amp features an almost entirely open design, likely for cooling concerns and the innards of the amp are sandwiched between two acrylic plates with cutouts on the top portion for the tube and one of the larger capacitors to stick out through the top of the amp. For aesthetic purposes, there are two LEDs, one red and one blue, that light up and remain lit while the amplifier is on.
   
  For the purposes of keeping the amp cool, there are a number of heatsinks on the sides and because of this, the amp becomes quite hot to the touch when left on for extended periods. This isn’t a problem for the most part as you probably won’t be touching or moving it much in operation aside from adjusting the volume or turning it off but it is a concern for the absentminded among us or users who are unaware of how hot it can get.
   
  I am a tad worried that some of the parts might break such as the headphone out, the 3.5mm mini jack input and the RCA inputs due to this open air design but the individual parts do feel somewhat durable and would thus be resistant to breaking. Another minor quibble I’m having with the Bravo is the fact that the potentiometer is a tad too sensitive when adjusting volume. The slightest adjustments can lead to big volume gains and just using the amp with the volume pot turned to about 8 o’clock drove the majority of my headphones to comfortable listening volumes. While I’m sure this means that this can output dangerous levels of volume for high impedance and difficult to drive cans such as the Sennheiser HD650 or AKG K701, it means users of lower impedance headphones or IEMs will have to be a bit more careful when making volume adjustments.
   


















 *Sound Quality*  This is where things get interesting. I’ve been using the amplifier with a number of different headphones and IEMs and there are a few standout pairings that I’d like to share with you all before I get into how I think this amp performs as a whole. All listening impressions have been conducted using the stock tube that shipped with the Bravo. Sources include an iPod Video with music mostly encoded in Apple Lossless, MP3 320 and VBR V0 and high quality AAC and a Playstaton 1 (SCPH-5501) CD Player.
 *Audio Technica ATH-M50*  I really don’t enjoy this pairing as much as I did initially. The M50 is a great sounding headphone with a somewhat emphasized upper midrange and treble which does not pair well with the Bravo. The emphasized upper midrange and treble presence became so much more pronounced when paired with the Bravo that it made listening to the M50s a very fatiguing experience, something I’m not used to when it comes to the M50. Overall, the M50s are just not a very good match for the Bravo. This isn’t necessarily a fault of the headphones or the amp, just a bad match as far as their respective sound signatures.
 *Sennheiser HD555*  Now this is a good pairing. The HD555s have a more relaxed and laid back presentation than the M50s, especially in the upper midrange and treble, and pair very well with the Bravo as a result. The Bravo adds a nice richness to the HD555s that lends it a more well-rounded sound. The bass, which is rather light on the HD555s is emphasized just enough to make the bottom end very enjoyable to listen to. Before, I had been using these with my CMoy BB v2.02 and even with the bass boost on, something still seemed to be lacking and I couldn’t put my finger on it. Now, the HD555s sound rather smooth and very “musical” and are easy to listen to for long periods.
 *HiFiMan RE0*  This is another very good pairing. Again, like the HD555s, bass impact is lacking overall but the detail, extension and level of refinement are all rather good and the Bravo does a good job of bringing these details forward by making the low end more pronounced. The amp imparts some warmth and body to the sound, making the RE0s smoother and less “thin” sounding to my ears, making them very pleasurable to listen to. The only downside to this pairing is perhaps a bit less detail when compared to my CMoy but not nearly enough to dampen my enjoyment of them when used with the Bravo.
   


​  *Overall Impressions*  The Bravo Audio V2 is a rather good and musical sounding amplifier. It adds a bit of warmth and richness to the low end and midrange while slightly emphasizing the treble. It’s not perfect though, as there is a slight loss of detail when I compare it side by side with my JDS Labs CMoy amp but the detail loss is not significant and will likely go unnoticed by the majority of users, especially if they lack a basis of comparison with another amp like I have.
   
  When it’s all said and done, I can’t help but like the V2. It’s a nice little tube amplifier in its own right for those of us who want to experiment with that highly desired “tube sound” without paying the exorbitant rates many tube amps cost and having to worry about paying quite as much for matched sets of replacement tubes when they eventually burn out. It also allows you to experiment with tube rolling. The loss of resolution that I mentioned earlier can likely be alleviated by upgrading the stock tube to a vintage tube like the RCA clear top and other compatible 12AU7 tubes such as those made by Phillips, Mullard and Sylvania. In that respect, that’s what intrigues me most about the Bravo Audio V2. Even if the stock tube doesn’t suit your musical tastes or isn’t a good match for a certain pair of headphones, you can always buy a different tube on eBay or a number of other sites to change the sound to your liking.
   


​  *Conclusion*  Overall, I’m rather impressed with the Bravo Audio V2. While its sound signature isn’t for everyone and isn’t a great pairing with every pair of headphones, it does well enough to be worth a look. Given the fact that the V2 is relatively inexpensive compared to other hybrid tube amplifiers makes it a good value for people looking for that signature tube sound without spending a fortune. While I don’t think this will be able to measure up to the more expensive amplifiers, its performance is quite good considering the price.
   
  At the end of the day, I have to ask myself a couple of questions. Am I enjoying what I’ve gotten? Yes. Do I feel like I’ve gotten a good value for my money? Yes. That’s what matters in the end. For the asking price, which varies wildly depending on whether you take your chances on auction or buy it immediately (I paid about $56 for mine, shipped), the Bravo Audio V2 hybrid tube amplifier is a good amplifier for the money that makes for more than an attractive desktop novelty and performs quite admirably in its chosen function.
   
*Re-Posted from my website Musical Musings*


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## audionewbi

Thanks for the review. Can we remove the tube and try various other ones?


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## TheGame21x

Yes, the stock tube is removable (the amp doesn't ship with it in place) and you can try different tubes in its place. Just make sure that the tubes you get match the 12AU7 specifications that the amp requires.


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## audionewbi

thanks for the heads up. i am in the market for some tube amps for the k702. I guess if they dont go well with the k702 i can always used them with the ER4S


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## cOSteLLo

Thx for the nice review, and the pictures, i am deffinatly gonna get one now, considering their so cheap its not a big risk anyway.


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## grm9860

Hello,
   
  I've had mine a couple of weeks now...  Shipped quickly 7 days from HK to Canada and arrived in good shape.  The only issues are the power connection is flimsy and it will loose power if moved.  I will find a way to make the connector couple better.  And, the volume knob is a bit askew.  It's been burning in around the clock for a couple of weeks and I gave it a listen last night as was quite surprised.  Channel balance is off at low volume settings, but seems fine when at normal listening volumes and drives my Ultrasone HFI-780's and Hifiman RE0's just fine.  I'll update when I've had more time to listen.
   
  Cheers.


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## arda1426

hey thanks for the info and review i saw for 80 dolars at turkey u think should i buy iT?=)


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## cOSteLLo

no man, u can get it for 50 bucks


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## thrillhaus

Quote: 





grm9860 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I've had mine a couple of weeks now...  Shipped quickly 7 days from HK to Canada and arrived in good shape.  The only issues are the power connection is flimsy and it will loose power if moved.  I will find a way to make the connector couple better.  And, the volume knob is a bit askew.  It's been burning in around the clock for a couple of weeks and I gave it a listen last night as was quite surprised.  Channel balance is off at low volume settings, but seems fine when at normal listening volumes and drives my Ultrasone HFI-780's and Hifiman RE0's just fine.  I'll update when I've had more time to listen.
> 
> Cheers.


 

 Is it just me or does the volume pot look a bit crooked?


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## RAZRr1275

Can this thing power or play nice with the K702, Denon D2000 and/or Grado SR80i? I might get it and mod it at some point down the road as a long term project


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## Evshrug

thrillhaus said:


> Is it just me or does the volume pot look a bit crooked?




Askewed = crooked, you'll see he pointed it out in his post.

Also the OP, very well written an professional. Great pictures! A review to emulate in style, for sure.


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## Makiah S

looking forward to gettin one of these soon ^^


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## DefQon

One does not simply have a Bravo V2 amp and leave it stock, you must mod it.
   
  Change the IRF630 mosfets (black heatsink) to Fairchild IRL510N's or equivalent, (virtually any IRL510-530 mosfet will do, but the 510's have the best impact) = More treble extension and detail retrieval, stock can sound sort of bright and recessed sometimes.
   
  Do the crosstalk mod, cut the two traces near the tube area underside the PCB. Change the LM317 mosfet to LM317A's (silver heatsink), best results is tube rolling O getter Sylvania's or Amperex Bugle Boy's or equivalent sounds lively and well articulated especially the bass and highs, treble is controlled and reduced as well for certain genre's which can sound be too bright or sharp. I found various cheap to expensive RCA and Mullard's too slow sounding on this amp, Telefunken's, Amperex, some Sylvania, Psvane's and Sophia Electrics have accommodated extremely well with this amp for almost all genre's I throw at it. Extended mod's can be you mod the amp with a regulated 24v psu, change the power cap to 35v 3500uf and the two 1000uf KY caps to Nihicon's or Elna's (which is costly) or the Starget Audio cap's (think that was the name).


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## Evshrug

defqon said:


> One does not simply have a Bravo V2 amp and leave it stock, you must mod it.



Aw, and here I was expecting a reference to The Lord of the Rings.



defqon said:


> Change the IRF630 mosfets (black heatsink) to Fairchild IRL510N's or equivalent, (virtually any IRL510-530 mosfet will do, but the 510's have the best impact) = More treble extension and detail retrieval, stock can sound sort of bright and recessed sometimes.
> 
> Do the crosstalk mod, cut the two traces near the tube area underside the PCB. Change the LM317 mosfet to LM317A's (silver heatsink), best results is tube rolling O getter Sylvania's or Amperex Bugle Boy's or equivalent sounds lively and well articulated especially the bass and highs, treble is controlled and reduced as well for certain genre's which can sound be too bright or sharp. I found various cheap to expensive RCA and Mullard's too slow sounding on this amp, Telefunken's, Amperex, some Sylvania, Psvane's and Sophia Electrics have accommodated extremely well with this amp for almost all genre's I throw at it. Extended mod's can be you mod the amp with a regulated 24v psu, change the power cap to 35v 3500uf and the two 1000uf KY caps to Nihicon's or Elna's (which is costly) or the Starget Audio cap's (think that was the name).




Lol, almost a new amp by the point you do these mods. Beyond switching tubes (and possibly forgetting to bias the trim pots for each tube), the average user isn't going to have the skill or time to do all the mods you suggest.

Also, a crosstalk mod can be nice sometimes, but not with every genre or even song (it really messes with binaural recordings or virtual surround for movies or games). I haven't heard of O getter tubes, but I have seen many on this thread recommend D Getter tubes. Do you have that link to the page detailing the effects of different tubes that match the amp's socket? That would be a really useful breakdown for someone interested in tube rolling.

By the time you pay for all those other mods, you might be able to afford another amp with most or all of those upgrades built-in already.

Lastly, a question out of curiosity, how can a treble sound signature be both bright and recessed?


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## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Aw, and here I was expecting a reference to The Lord of the Rings.
> Lol, almost a new amp by the point you do these mods. Beyond switching tubes (and possibly forgetting to bias the trim pots for each tube), the average user isn't going to have the skill or time to do all the mods you suggest.
> Also, a crosstalk mod can be nice sometimes, but not with every genre or even song (it really messes with binaural recordings or virtual surround for movies or games). I haven't heard of O getter tubes, but I have seen many on this thread recommend D Getter tubes. Do you have that link to the page detailing the effects of different tubes that match the amp's socket? That would be a really useful breakdown for someone interested in tube rolling.
> By the time you pay for all those other mods, you might be able to afford another amp with most or all of those upgrades built-in already.
> Lastly, a question out of curiosity, how can a treble sound signature be both bright and recessed?


 
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/633555/tubes-for-project-sunrise-ii#post_8859620
   
  The second post by me outlines a detailed report on some of the 12AU7 tubes I have tried in the Sunrise Amp, the Sunrise amp and the Bravo are similar (the Sunrise a slightly more superior one) both able to tube role 12AU7 tubes. Also changing few resistors on the circuit for trim pots is an extra option but is not necessary, you can simply take out and tube and tube roll another one and it be fine. O getter, long grey or black plates pair best with the Bravo after the mod's I've mentioned are performed, I don't remember the sound of a stock Bravo V2 so yeah.
   
  The cost of mod's won't involve more than a few hours and roughly $15-25 max, cheaper if you already have extra part's such as capacitors lying around, of course one can change every resistor and components to high grade audiophile one's and the modding ceiling to the sky with unlimited amount of options, but this is the same for other amp's as well bare that in mind. Just for a comparison, my Bravo V2 tube amp performs better with an array of headphones I have with different genre's then the $180 Hifiman EF-2 tube amp, and there isn't much more mod's for that amp as well.
   
  By the last bit I meant the treble sound either too bright or recessed, I tried shortening it into one sentence so ya, bit of confusion lol.


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## Makiah S

Quote: 





defqon said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/633555/tubes-for-project-sunrise-ii#post_8859620
> 
> The second post by me outlines a detailed report on some of the 12AU7 tubes I have tried in the Sunrise Amp, the Sunrise amp and the Bravo are similar (the Sunrise a slightly more superior one) both able to tube role 12AU7 tubes. Also changing few resistors on the circuit for trim pots is an extra option but is not necessary, you can simply take out and tube and tube roll another one and it be fine. O getter, long grey or black plates pair best with the Bravo after the mod's I've mentioned are performed, I don't remember the sound of a stock Bravo V2 so yeah.
> 
> ...


 
  ... I see that you build Tube Amps, I do not have the skill to mod hard ware... I am NOT a DIY guy... I might like to be but right now... NO MEGUSTA. SO what would you charge me to well sell me a Modded Bravo V2 , it's about $70 stock and let's say $30 for the upgrades... then add like
   
  Oh you live in Austrailla... well that sux.
   
  Still other than Tube Rolling I don't have the time or skill e.e [I have a friend that does ironically] still this is my first Tube amp then I'm aiming for a Hifiman EF-5 Tube or something in that price range... so I only really want Sub $100 tube tbh... I might Roll the Tube if I get kinda broke... but I don't aim for this to be MEGA Transparent just a nice intro into the Tube Sound, until I get mah Check in le Spring, which will allow me to buy some SERIOUS gear


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## penmarker

Quote: 





razrr1275 said:


> Can this thing power or play nice with the K702, Denon D2000 and/or Grado SR80i? I might get it and mod it at some point down the road as a long term project


 
  Not sure about the K702 or SR80i, but the D2000 won't pair well with the/a tube amp. the DX000 series pair best with low power solid state amps.
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/619181/list-opinion-amp-recommendations-for-denon-headphones


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## Evshrug

mshenay said:


> ... I see that you build Tube Amps, I do not have the skill to mod hard ware... I am NOT a DIY guy... I might like to be but right now... NO MEGUSTA. SO what would you charge me to well sell me a Modded Bravo V2 , it's about $70 stock and let's say $30 for the upgrades... then add like
> 
> Oh you live in Austrailla... well that sux.
> 
> Still other than Tube Rolling I don't have the time or skill e.e [I have a friend that does ironically] still this is my first Tube amp then I'm aiming for a Hifiman EF-5 Tube or something in that price range... so I only really want Sub $100 tube tbh... I might Roll the Tube if I get kinda broke... but I don't aim for this to be MEGA Transparent just a nice intro into the Tube Sound, until I get mah Check in le Spring, which will allow me to buy some SERIOUS gear




That's basically what I was getting at in my last post... A lot of us want to/need to spend our weekends on other things for personal growth and entertainment than tinkering with electronics. It takes all kinds of people to make the world go around, right? In fact, I would guess that MOST of us aren't the type to have "spare capacitors lying around."

Mshenay, you may want to look into eBay store fred_fred_2004, they have 2 different finished tube design amps and good feedback. Actually, seems like he just posted another 1-off (i.e. quantity = 1) tube design in a... Unique enclosure tin. He's also based in Australia, but since he builds them himself it's not really different from buying from China, unless you have political reasons. I almost pulled the trigger on his desktop amp:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Desktop-12AU7-JRC4556-Valve-driven-cmoy-RA1-headphone-amplifier-amp-warm-tube-/190721696228?pt=AU_Electronics_Audio_Amplifiers&hash=item2c67e621e4
Then, there also the Millett Starving Student tube amps people make. But, as you may remember from MLE's thread, I went with a new amp from a DIY'er gone commercial, which should be arriving within days. It's in http://www.head-fi.org/t/402067/a-super-simple-6dj8-headphone-amp/285 this thread, I specifically linked to a page with interesting mention of the Bravo/Indeed amps.

It's the eternal consumer question: buy a decent product at a great value price, or spend a little more and get something that reaches another quality threshold.


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## Evshrug

P.s. while I still see the Bravo & Indeed amps decent for cheap-as-possible tube hybrids, this review was what got me curious about the Super Simple: http://www.slugsite.com/archives/1289


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## Makiah S

Hmm well I really like my JDS Labs cMoy and the mention of cMoy with Fred_Fred_2004 with his hybrid Tube makes me curios... I may just jump on that instead! As I hear his build quality is usally pretty solid. He has a "make an offer" listing in which I can MAYBE get his amp for around $80, because it stands at about $107 with shipping and what not... so hopefully he will agree ;3. But with only 1 sold and 8 avalibe. I'm not sure he's in a position to argue to much lol.


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## Evshrug

mshenay said:


> Hmm well I really like my JDS Labs cMoy and the mention of cMoy with Fred_Fred_2004 with his hybrid Tube makes me curios... I may just jump on that instead! As I hear his build quality is usally pretty solid. He has a "make an offer" listing in which I can MAYBE get his amp for around $80, because it stands at about $107 with shipping and what not... so hopefully he will agree ;3. But with only 1 sold and 8 avalibe. I'm not sure he's in a position to argue to much lol.




I saw you talking about your JDS Labs cmoy on Clie OS's round-up. Fred_Fred_2004's 3 channel amp was his favourite sub-$100 amp, so I'm very curious if the Tube amp is similarly pleasing.

He has 1 sold 8 available... from this listing. I've been watching, he regularly sells out, and then builds another batch of amps to sell. I doubt you'll get the desktop model for under $100 US. It's still a bargain, but not cheap like the Bravo/Indeed amps. Fred_Fred_2004 has a smaller tube hybrid that costs less. Dunno how any of these amps compare to eachother though.


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## Makiah S

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I saw you talking about your JDS Labs cmoy on Clie OS's round-up. Fred_Fred_2004's 3 channel amp was his favourite sub-$100 amp, so I'm very curious if the Tube amp is similarly pleasing.
> He has 1 sold 8 available... from this listing. I've been watching, he regularly sells out, and then builds another batch of amps to sell. I doubt you'll get the desktop model for under $100 US. It's still a bargain, but not cheap like the Bravo/Indeed amps. Fred_Fred_2004 has a smaller tube hybrid that costs less. Dunno how any of these amps compare to eachother though.


 
  Blag they dont compare well... hence is why it's like half the price! But I think he'd sell it to me for $20 less than what he has listed! If not then I can just see if he'll go under $100 seeing as it's about $108 with shipping! But we will see soon enough


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## Evshrug

mshenay said:


> Blag they dont compare well... hence is why it's like half the price! But I think he'd sell it to me for $20 less than what he has listed! If not then I can just see if he'll go under $100 seeing as it's about $108 with shipping! But we will see soon enough




Can you show me the comparison? I would guess that the smaller one is almost the same as the amp in this review in design.


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## Makiah S

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Can you show me the comparison? I would guess that the smaller one is almost the same as the amp in this review in design.


 
  look on the sellers page, the dektop amp has an additional wiring or something... ethier way... the $50 is much smaller so that makes me think... some thing has been comprimised!


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## DefQon

Quote: 





mshenay said:


> ... I see that you build Tube Amps, I do not have the skill to mod hard ware... I am NOT a DIY guy... I might like to be but right now... NO MEGUSTA. SO what would you charge me to well sell me a Modded Bravo V2 , it's about $70 stock and let's say $30 for the upgrades... then add like
> 
> Oh you live in Austrailla... well that sux.
> 
> Still other than Tube Rolling I don't have the time or skill e.e [I have a friend that does ironically] still this is my first Tube amp then I'm aiming for a Hifiman EF-5 Tube or something in that price range... so I only really want Sub $100 tube tbh... I might Roll the Tube if I get kinda broke... but I don't aim for this to be MEGA Transparent just a nice intro into the Tube Sound, until I get mah Check in le Spring, which will allow me to buy some SERIOUS gear


 
   
  I don't build amp's for profit, rather just build my own amp's on pre-available kit's or so thing's like the Beta 22 or the parafeed Torpedo etc, nothing like I'm designing my own amp's no chance lol. The Bravo V2 has potential and it's a great way to dip your feet wet into the world of tube's, alternatively you can also just shoot for something higher-range say $250-650 price bracket but really depends on how much your willing to spend, but as always and I exercise to people is that do your research on the equipment your buying before pulling the trigger, read review's from our contributors here and other websites objectively and subjectively as well as the technical side and the components used, a lot of head-fi'ers have no experience with the gear they state they have listened to and just regurgitate what other's have written, it's a shame but it's avoidable at best. 
   
  Tube rolling is just as fun as building amp's which is pretty fun too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Quote: 





penmarker said:


> Not sure about the K702 or SR80i, but the D2000 won't pair well with the/a tube amp. the DX000 series pair best with low power solid state amps.
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/619181/list-opinion-amp-recommendations-for-denon-headphones


 
  +1, the K/Q70X range suits anything tube based, bit bright with certain mid range SS gear. Haven't heard the SR80's but if it's anything like the MS1i's I had while ago then it pair well with both SS and tube gear. As much as a recessed fart cannon the D2k is, it won't pair well with a tube amp that has a very strong warm signature.
   
  Quote: 





evshrug said:


> That's basically what I was getting at in my last post... A lot of us want to/need to spend our weekends on other things for personal growth and entertainment than tinkering with electronics. It takes all kinds of people to make the world go around, right? In fact, I would guess that MOST of us aren't the type to have "spare capacitors lying around."
> Mshenay, you may want to look into eBay store fred_fred_2004, they have 2 different finished tube design amps and good feedback. Actually, seems like he just posted another 1-off (i.e. quantity = 1) tube design in a... Unique enclosure tin. He's also based in Australia, but since he builds them himself it's not really different from buying from China, unless you have political reasons. I almost pulled the trigger on his desktop amp:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Desktop-12AU7-JRC4556-Valve-driven-cmoy-RA1-headphone-amplifier-amp-warm-tube-/190721696228?pt=AU_Electronics_Audio_Amplifiers&hash=item2c67e621e4
> Then, there also the Millett Starving Student tube amps people make. But, as you may remember from MLE's thread, I went with a new amp from a DIY'er gone commercial, which should be arriving within days. It's in http://www.head-fi.org/t/402067/a-super-simple-6dj8-headphone-amp/285 this thread, I specifically linked to a page with interesting mention of the Bravo/Indeed amps.
> It's the eternal consumer question: buy a decent product at a great value price, or spend a little more and get something that reaches another quality threshold.


 
  As much as I like Fred's stuff, that amp will not be in the same performance league of a stock Bravo V2 amp at all. Correct me if I'm wrong but the last time he listed one of those he stated that the tube is there for look's as it doesn't actually contribute to the sound from the circuit. 
   
  If you can do bit of DIY, fwiw, skip the Bravo and go for the MMSS (Millett Max Starving Student), great way to learn about amp's as you go, DIY and knowledge base wise on the technicalities involved and even more important you feel proud of yourself when you finish the working unit.
   
  Quote: 





mshenay said:


> Hmm well I really like my JDS Labs cMoy and the mention of cMoy with Fred_Fred_2004 with his hybrid Tube makes me curios... I may just jump on that instead! As I hear his build quality is usally pretty solid. He has a "make an offer" listing in which I can MAYBE get his amp for around $80, because it stands at about $107 with shipping and what not... so hopefully he will agree ;3. But with only 1 sold and 8 avalibe. I'm not sure he's in a position to argue to much lol.


 
   
   
  Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I saw you talking about your JDS Labs cmoy on Clie OS's round-up. Fred_Fred_2004's 3 channel amp was his favourite sub-$100 amp, so I'm very curious if the Tube amp is similarly pleasing.
> He has 1 sold 8 available... from this listing. I've been watching, he regularly sells out, and then builds another batch of amps to sell. I doubt you'll get the desktop model for under $100 US. It's still a bargain, but not cheap like the Bravo/Indeed amps. Fred_Fred_2004 has a smaller tube hybrid that costs less. Dunno how any of these amps compare to eachother though.


 
   
  Pa2v2 is hard to beat, goes for less when in the F/S section and sound's better. Fred's stuff are not cheap considering it is just a Moy or RA1 based amp, which technically is a Moy itself.
   
  Btw, what is a 'Me Gusta'? I see troll's use it sometimes but I guess I'm showing my age now by not having to keep up with these 'kid' terminologies these day's.


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## ClieOS

Quote: 





defqon said:


> Pa2v2 is hard to beat, goes for less when in the F/S section and sound's better. Fred's stuff are not cheap considering it is just a Moy or RA1 based amp, which technically is a Moy itself.


 
   
  On some sense, many amps have a cmoy root. However, that's because ChuMoy designed the first cmoy using the reference amp topology in the datasheet, not because he invented the cmoy topology. It will be silly to think because it has a cmoy like topology than the amp must be inferior, since the same topology has been used on higher end amp as well. If you think of it, That is only that many way you can reinvent the wheel, so to speak, PA2V2 uses the similar topology recommended on the amp chip's datasheet as well, the same one on Boostaroo v2 no less. However, many of Howard's amp topology ain't cmoy actually. The 3 Channels is buffered A47 to be exact, but that can be argued as a modified cmoy of course. Then again, it was inspired by a datasheet reference as well, IIRC.


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## DefQon

Quote: 





clieos said:


> On some sense, many amps have a cmoy root. However, that's because ChuMoy designed the first cmoy using the reference amp topology in the datasheet, not because he invented the cmoy topology. It will be silly to think because it has a cmoy like topology than the amp must be inferior, since the same topology has been used on higher end amp as well. If you think of it, That is only that many way you can reinvent the wheel, so to speak, PA2V2 uses the similar topology recommended on the amp chip's datasheet as well, the same one on Boostaroo v2 no less. However, many of Howard's amp topology ain't cmoy actually. The 3 Channels is buffered A47 to be exact, but that can be argued as a modified cmoy of course. Then again, it was inspired by a datasheet reference as well, IIRC.


 
   
  I never said he invented the Cmoy topology and as it stands from a schematic point of view, it is a 'Cmoy' in a way.


----------



## ClieOS

Of course you didn't. But my curiosity is, we all know what a cmoy looks like, but where is the point when we stop saying a circuit is a cmoy but rather something else? Arguably, many of the RSA and iBasso amp are actually cmoy with a different opamp and perhaps an enhanced power section. They might use mostly SMD parts, but the topology doesn't different that much from a cmoy.


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## Makiah S

Well the big issue I have is I'm a Cullinary Art's guy... I cook I don't do eletronics xD. As much as I'd like to learn I don't have the time or resources to get into building and moddifying my own amps e.e I'm a listening kind of guy, I do like learning how the stuff works but to actually work on it... no thanks
   
  I would how ever love to ask you to build a MMSS amp for me and I'd love to pay you for everything at cost as well as the shipping!
   
  But once again, aside from Tube Rolling I don't plan to get into building and modifying amps to much e.e, trust me working in a hot kitchen for 10 hours is pretty exhuasting and when I get home... I'm not in the mood to build an electrical Circuit. I'm to tired mentally for the task, cookings pretty intense...
   
  But I've got a little extra Cash for once now so I hope to get something in the next two weeks!


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## Evshrug

*DefQon,*
I would actually love to build an amp. I would also like to build an R/C plane, learn to be my own car mechanic, finish my engineering degree, solve the design issues of Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles (seems to be picking the right chemical catalyst to strip electrons from hydrogen while introducing Oxygen to end up with electricity and water, there has been much progress on that, the main problem is actually hydrogen distribution and the power of oil companies). I really would love to have my hands in all of these things. But first, I must add to my other experience and learn more advanced uses of Dreamweaver and HTML coding, so I can make money.

I thought about the Millett Max Starving Student amp, buying or building would be great fun. But while researching both these Bravo amps and the Millett (sorry if I'm spelling his name wrong just now), I came across references to the quality of the Super Simple amp referenced above. It costs more money, but it has great potential, and I've read others in that thread that preferred it to the MMSS amp. It was a bit of a gamble, but someone agreed to build one for me, and it arrived today! Of course I missed the postman and signature, so I won't actually have it in my hands until tomorrow, BUT! I've been looking forward to it! Review and pics tomorrow!
]
My review in it's own article, of course. We've derailed this one enough, which is a massive shame because it was very well written. Which is why, even though I haven't heard the Bravo (just the majority opinion), I'd still say this is definitely an amp to consider if looking for a cheap tube-hybrid and/or modding opportunity, though the "Indeed G3" brand- version of this amp has a better track record for power switch reliability and power supply.

"Me Gusta" is Spanish for "I like," so not particularly bound to trolls, but I wouldn't be surprised if some hipsters/trolls use the phrase because they saw others using it with those "memese" cartoons and just try to use it the same way. Also, the closest reference I've read to what you're saying about Howard's tube hybrid in the Hammond case is that the tube is just there to color the sound, while the solid state part of the show does the gain and power amplification... which is how all tube hybrids work to my knowledge. Howard also built a USB hub with a tube in it as a joke, that was an absolutely "transparent" tube, lol.
------

*ClieOS*,
Thank you for lending your experience and analysis.
I agree with what you are saying, and take it further - there obviously is more to an amp than the inspiration for the design (like CMoy or Sidjosae). There is implementation, circuit layout and design, component choice, power usage, heat dissipation, case design, quality control... Music could be considered limited by note variety and key, but then not all musicians play scales on piano! Action or romance stories could all be considered to be the same! I think everybody gets the picture. Have you seen any reviews on Howard's tube hybrids?

I get my amp tomorrow I get my amp tomorrow! I wish I could share it with you and see what you would think of it. I have a general idea of what to listen for and how to describe it, do you have any suggestions for how to write my review so that it will be understood and useful to others?
-----

*Mshenay,*
I hear ya buddy. I've had work in the food industry 3 different times, and had other jobs that just bum wore me out (never ate so much and slept so hard as when I was in landscaping though), and if I learned anything it was to be respectful for how demanding jobs are for the blue-collar man. A Bravo (or Indeed, seriously) would probably be fine, although the gain sweet spot is small on the volume pot, and it may take up to a month to arrive from Hong Kong. So, just manage your expectations.

I'm a little disappointed you haven't actually found a review or comparison, basically just assumed the cheaper Fred_Fred_2004 amp is inferior to the Bravo/Indeed/Muse design because both are smaller or have less "wiring" than Fred_Fred (Howard's) desktop amp. I don't actually follow what you're thinking, so to be on the same page, without reading a direct comparison review I would chose Howard's for about the same price because he hand-makes them with better build quality than the factory that makes the amp for Bravo/indeed/Muse to sell. The Bravo clones do have the advantage of RCA inputs and outputs. I don't know the advantages of Howard's desktop other than the addition of RCA input and upgraded parts listed on the eBay page, though I have faith he did have a reason for charging more. Did you hear back on what he'd sell it to you for?


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> *Mshenay,*
> I hear ya buddy. I've had work in the food industry 3 different times, and had other jobs that just bum wore me out (never ate so much and slept so hard as when I was in landscaping though), and if I learned anything it was to be respectful for how demanding jobs are for the blue-collar man. A Bravo (or Indeed, seriously) would probably be fine, although the gain sweet spot is small on the volume pot, and it may take up to a month to arrive from Hong Kong. So, just manage your expectations.
> I'm a little disappointed you haven't actually found a review or comparison, basically just assumed the cheaper Fred_Fred_2004 amp is inferior to the Bravo/Indeed/Muse design because both are smaller or have less "wiring" than Fred_Fred (Howard's) desktop amp. I don't actually follow what you're thinking, so to be on the same page, without reading a direct comparison review I would chose Howard's for about the same price because he hand-makes them with better build quality than the factory that makes the amp for Bravo/indeed/Muse to sell. The Bravo clones do have the advantage of RCA inputs and outputs. I don't know the advantages of Howard's desktop other than the addition of RCA input and upgraded parts listed on the eBay page, though I have faith he did have a reason for charging more. Did you hear back on what he'd sell it to you for?


 
  Well I'm currently in cullinary school doing landscaping so -.- some days COOK ON ALL other days LANDSCAPE ALL DAY >.>
   
  Non the less I'll ask Howard about the $108 version of it, and I don't expect WONDERS from the bravo all I want is a different sound from my Pure solid state cMoy and E11, the Jds cMoy bb is lush and neutral in sound stage, the E11 is dark and closed in sound stage. If the Bravo has more forward mids and highs that would be different an nice maybe...


----------



## ClieOS

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> *ClieOS*,
> Thank you for lending your experience and analysis.
> I agree with what you are saying, and take it further - there obviously is more to an amp than the inspiration for the design (like CMoy or Sidjosae). There is implementation, circuit layout and design, component choice, power usage, heat dissipation, case design, quality control... Music could be considered limited by note variety and key, but then not all musicians play scales on piano! Action or romance stories could all be considered to be the same! I think everybody gets the picture. Have you seen any reviews on Howard's tube hybrids?
> I get my amp tomorrow I get my amp tomorrow! I wish I could share it with you and see what you would think of it. I have a general idea of what to listen for and how to describe it, do you have any suggestions for how to write my review so that it will be understood and useful to others?


 
   
  Never read any review on it. Then again, I wasn't looking for it since I don't actually use tube amp much more and already have a few collecting dust.
   
  Tube amp usually is a love or hate thing (but mostly love), so take your time before reviewing it. You might even want to roll a few different brands of tube just to get the feel of what tube rolling is all about.


----------



## Evshrug

clieos said:


> Never read any review on it. Then again, I wasn't looking for it since I don't actually use tube amp much more and already have a few collecting dust.
> 
> Tube amp usually is a love or hate thing (but mostly love), so take your time before reviewing it. You might even want to roll a few different brands of tube just to get the feel of what tube rolling is all about.




Thanks... well, I don't have any spare tubes at the moment, but what you say makes sense to understand the differences between tubes, and what the amp does regardless of what tube is inside. I may post as an "initial impression review" then, because I do want to speak on what it specifically sounds like vs what I already have in the SS realm.

Anyway, should be here, c'ya later!

Update: aw man... The amp is beautiful, luxurious even, but the tube got busted in transit


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Thanks... well, I don't have any spare tubes at the moment, but what you say makes sense to understand the differences between tubes, and what the amp does regardless of what tube is inside. I may post as an "initial impression review" then, because I do want to speak on what it specifically sounds like vs what I already have in the SS realm.
> Anyway, should be here, c'ya later!
> Update: aw man... The amp is beautiful, luxurious even, but the tube got busted in transit


 
  ... BUSTED, then dude call up the shipping company and TAKE IT OUT poliety on them :3


----------



## Evshrug

mshenay said:


> ... BUSTED, then dude call up the shipping company and TAKE IT OUT poliety on them :3




Don't know if that would be USPS or Latvijas Pasts, and I dunno if either could me made to take responsibility. Either way, it's just a $10 part that I'll have to wait like another week before I can get a replacement. The amp is so nicely built that I'm just going to try and find the fastest solution.


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Don't know if that would be USPS or Latvijas Pasts, and I dunno if either could me made to take responsibility. Either way, it's just a $10 part that I'll have to wait like another week before I can get a replacement. The amp is so nicely built that I'm just going to try and find the fastest solution.


 
  what kind of amp was it :O that looks nice for a Bravo


----------



## Evshrug

mshenay said:


> what kind of amp was it :O that looks nice for a Bravo




It's not a Bravo, TBH it's in a whole different class because of hand-craftsmanship and cost. I do agree that it looks great, also it's mounted to the aluminum enclosure in such a way that the enclosure acts as a huge heatsink and wireless signal shield (no distortion from nearby cellphones or wifi routers).


----------



## Makiah S

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> It's not a Bravo, TBH it's in a whole different class because of hand-craftsmanship and cost. I do agree that it looks great, also it's mounted to the aluminum enclosure in such a way that the enclosure acts as a huge heatsink and wireless signal shield (no distortion from nearby cellphones or wifi routers).


 
  coolio!


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Also, the closest reference I've read to what you're saying about Howard's tube hybrid in the Hammond case is that the tube is just there to color the sound, while the solid state part of the show does the gain and power amplification... which is how all tube hybrids work to my knowledge. Howard also built a USB hub with a tube in it as a joke, that was an absolutely "transparent" tube, lol.


 
   
  I wasn't talking about the tube built-in to the circuit to colour the sound, he was selling portable/desktop amp's in the black generic hammond cases that was based on either the RA1 design or a pure Cmoy circuit with a tube that is externally powered only as a display thing, it didn't work in conjunction with the tube and had no affect on the sound whatsoever.
   
   


evshrug said:


> I'm a little disappointed you haven't actually found a review or comparison, basically just assumed the cheaper Fred_Fred_2004 amp is inferior to the Bravo/Indeed/Muse design because both are smaller or have less "wiring" than Fred_Fred (Howard's) desktop amp. I don't actually follow what you're thinking, so to be on the same page, without reading a direct comparison review I would chose Howard's for about the same price because he hand-makes them with better build quality than the factory that makes the amp for Bravo/indeed/Muse to sell. The Bravo clones do have the advantage of RCA inputs and outputs. I don't know the advantages of Howard's desktop other than the addition of RCA input and upgraded parts listed on the eBay page, though I have faith he did have a reason for charging more. Did you hear back on what he'd sell it to you for?


   

  A little off-track but I still own 1 one of fred's portable Ti amp's and two of other Cmoy design's I was given for free by a friend who purchased it off his ebay page. Suffice to say, all 3 amp's compared to the Bravo or any other 12AU7 clone for that matter is not even a fair comparison. The amp's I had the opamp's hard soldered, my Ti v2 (or v1) was soldered SMD style. With the Bravo you can just roll a different tube to get the sound characteristic you like best and it has a bigger affect then rolling opamp's. Better build-quality is subjective like sound, I've opened both 3 of his portable amp's and was going to add a rechargeable mod to my Ti amp (after getting the schematics off him via PM) but decided to leave it otherwise, I don't even use the amp now, now that I have bigger toy's to play with. Remember they are hand-worked unit's they are not perfect, one could look at the solder and layout could tell. The only con I can list about the Bravo is the crap PCB quality, other than that I was even surprised to see an ALP's pot used when I received my Bravo 2 half years ago.
   
  Another factor is that they Bravo can power any 50-600ohm headphone quite efficiently, the Cmoy's not quite so much, the only headphone's I would imagine the Bravo cannot drive adequately enough would be the HE-6 and the K1000's.


----------



## Evshrug

True, much more gain, though I need current personally for my Q701. Surprised to hear about a cosmetic tube in an amp from him, because I definitely read a thread where he made a gadget with a light up tube superficially attached as a joke.... Wouldn't think someone poking fun like that publicly on head-Fi would make a commercial product like that.


----------



## billybob_jcv

I've read quite a few posts on various sites talking about the Bravo/Indeed/Muse tube amps lasting only a few weeks due to noise & heat issues. For example:
http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=b&thread=4948&page=34#122005

Does anyone here have enough hours on theirs to confirm/deny this?


----------



## Evshrug

Billybob,
I can't speak from personal experience, but even from the major thread of Head-Fi
http://www.head-fi.org/t/444400/bravo-audio-funny-looking-little-tube-amps/300
I see many examples of people having problems with power switches (which have been a bit upgraded from the first revisions), power supplies (the Indeed comes with a superior PS), and overheating issues... It seems that the amp is most appealing to those with an interest in electronics and modding, where fixing it would be part of the fun, or people who just want a really inexpensive amp that can supply a lot of gain for high-impedance headphones, and don't mind replacing it within a year.

So, an Indeed is going to sound good and be easy to learn a little modding, a good inexpensive choice for an amp that you will get good use out of it till it fails.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





billybob_jcv said:


> I've read quite a few posts on various sites talking about the Bravo/Indeed/Muse tube amps lasting only a few weeks due to noise & heat issues. For example:
> http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=b&thread=4948&page=34#122005
> Does anyone here have enough hours on theirs to confirm/deny this?


 
  Never had a problem with mine, but one other user did have the overheating issue on one side of his IRF630 mosfet's/heatsink and the sound was quite unbalanced, he ended up fixing it by exchanging two resistors for trimpots and adjusted the bias to the right v for the heaters appropriately. Noise generally comes from bad solder connections/loose components or bad power supply, you'd get a low hum that increases if you dial the volume up.


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Billybob,
> I can't speak from personal experience, but even from the major thread of Head-Fi
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/444400/bravo-audio-funny-looking-little-tube-amps/300
> I see many examples of people having problems with power switches (which have been a bit upgraded from the first revisions), power supplies (the Indeed comes with a superior PS), and overheating issues... It seems that the amp is most appealing to those with an interest in electronics and modding, where fixing it would be part of the fun, or people who just want a really inexpensive amp that can supply a lot of gain for high-impedance headphones, and don't mind replacing it within a year.
> So, an Indeed is going to sound good and be easy to learn a little modding, a good inexpensive choice for an amp that you will get good use out of it till it fails.


 
   
  Pretty much, the Indeed is good out of the box but the Bravo has more available mod's for it that turns it into a little gem. Another cheap but bigger upgrade based similarly on the Bravo design but better is the Project Sunrise II amp.


----------



## Evshrug

defqon said:


> Pretty much, the Indeed is good out of the box but the Bravo has more available mod's for it that turns it into a little gem. Another cheap but bigger upgrade based similarly on the Bravo design but better is the Project Sunrise II amp.




Did the sunrise project address RF shielding issues? I do expect it has a better power switch. Does it have a power on/off delay, to prevent the "Thump!"?


----------



## DefQon

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Did the sunrise project address RF shielding issues? I do expect it has a better power switch. Does it have a power on/off delay, to prevent the "Thump!"?


 
  There is no interference noise coming out of the headphones when I had my lot plugged into the 3-4 Sunrise amp's I built for friends. I mean for a $200kit, all these simpleton problem's are eliminated.


----------



## Evshrug

Good, they ought to be and I expected them to be. And that was what I was trying to point out really: the Bravo/Indeed amps basically sound good, but they are cheap because they cut so many corners and have a few "simpleton problems."

Interesting and totally unrelated observation at this moment: listening to Grado SR60 through my iPod 5th gen's hp jack sounds unnatural compared to my Q701 setup at home. Still fun, but I miss the Q701. Still haven't won/ordered a Tube for my amp yet.


----------



## drmrwt

anyone using dt770's 250 ohm with these?


----------



## Evshrug

Woah, I'd forgotten about this thread/review.


----------



## Ponczomarinero

I am using Little Bear - clone of bravo and indeed with my Beyerdynamic DT990 pro 250ohm. Sounds superb out of the box even with chinese tube on. There is a space for mods. Change some resistors for Dale or PRP ones, output capacitors for Elna, Nichicon, transistors for 510 type. I bought it just for tests because was cheap, but for that price wouldn't be disapponted. Listening this kind of tube sound is a pleasure specially in some guitars and vocals area. You can't stop listening it.
  There is some selling little bear amp very cheap but be carefully - there is two blue led diodes! one of them must be red (giving reference voltage). For that price that little gem is excellent for modding. First I can recommend is changing two cheap bias potentiometers and output caps. Anyway Beyerdynamics sounds excellent on it. Remember, buy amplifiers with yellow relay on the board, they have a switch for 6v and 12v tubes.
   
  Matt


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## Evshrug

Matt, with all the modding effort you've put into your amp, why NOT try another $15 tube? Even a such a cheap NOS tube can make a drastic difference.


----------



## Ponczomarinero

Allready using Philips ECG Valve, some Tungsram PCC88 which I have heard good opinion about is coming. 
   
  Now I am thinking about some Project Sunrise but price  making me just thinking at the moment. I have found some interesting information about AUNE T1 but it is DAC+AMP. Still looking for some outstanding valve amplifier after I will stop searching. Is it possible to stop searching?


----------



## Evshrug

Probably not. Did you find the "super simple 6DJ8" thread that was meantioned quite earlier on in this thread? Interestingly, it's what [the somewhat grating socially] UpstateNyGuy (or whatever his name was) was arguing against Judge Buff as worth getting over the "curiosity" Bravo amp. As much as I don't think that guy contributed much to the thread, I did end up looking up the amp he was talking about, and three months later I had a hand-built amp from DIY Head-Fi'er Zigis, and it is the best sounding amp I've ever heard: amazing dynamics, soundstage, and imaging. I haven't tried every tube amp under the sun, but I'm REALLY happy with Zigis' amp.


----------



## Ponczomarinero

Thanx Evshrug for some info abaout super simple amp.
   
  Strange, that simpler version of Bravo, Indeed, Little Bear etc. may sounds better.
  All of them has been based on Sijosae MHHA amplifier. Logically thinking the version 3  should represent better SQ.
  I know the tubes makes big diference. What tube are you using? 
   
  What I was thinking we should try to design better PCB with some space for better coupling condensators, better cooling, decent power supply, specially better potentiometer. I have already started some basic version of PCB in free Eagle version, but I am amateur and this is my first pcb design. Probably I wan't finish it. Maybe anyone doing similar project already. Maybe someone seen some good quality PCB for similars project?
   
  I have read good opinions about HA10 made by Custom Hifi Cables and is based on similar schematic. 
   
  I need to read from beginning the super simple sdj8 thread.
   
  Still looking for


----------



## Evshrug

Did you find the thread? I don't think the "Rock 'n Glass," as Zigis calls it, is a Sijosae based design... I think it's based on an even simpler Class A, Single Ended Triode design from the early days of audiophilia. Of course, I could be wrong, I wasn't the one to design it. But yeah, simple/less complicated isn't necessarily a step down in quality from some complex design, and Zigis used some nice quality parts. Parts I think on the same quality level as the Project Sunrise II amp, but a different circuit design. I read all the way through the Super Simple 6DJ8 amp thread (wasn't too bad) and the "cute little amp" thread about the Bravo (which took MONTHS), learned a fair bit along the way, but I'm not ready to DIY.

Zigis would probably sell you a PCB, but apparently making the first template for a board for mass production printing is expensive, so making your own PCB might be expensive for just one amp. Plus, his enclosure is really classy, with the aluminum case acting as a heatsink (doesn't get hot) and nice wooden side panels.

Right now I'm using an Amperex 6DJ8 Bugle Boy from the 70's I think (the label is pretty worn down), it's very nice, but I have another Bugle Boy I'd like to roll and some Vokshod 6N23P tubes I need to try. I also have a Sylvania JAN 6DJ8 I liked, and a more average Amperex that is dark for my tastes.


----------



## Ponczomarinero

Have you heard Project Sunrise or Bravo,Indeed G2, G3? Can you compare Zigis one to them?
  I know that is very hard to compare Bravo/Indeed with some cheap tube with Zigis using some Amperex gem.
  What I am trying to do is buy the best possible tube amp in that range of price.
  Indeed g3 is a option and Project Sunrise II which is for me little bit overpriced. But I really like Zigis stylish case. If it plays same as two mentioned I will go for ZIgis
  I have just contacted Zigis and unfortunately haven't had any PCB. But have some for sell.


----------



## Evshrug

I haven't been able to compare the hybrids vs the Rock 'N Glass side-by-side, but if I did have both amps I could swap the tube between them to minimize that difference. Nice thing about NOS tubes, there are great deals to be had: I got my pair of Bugle Boys for $15. I'm actually interested in trying the Vokshod tubes next; the Bugle Boy I have right now is pretty microphonic and produces a ringing noise if I bump the table by accident (happens sometimes when I wiggle my feet with the music), but the military-spec 6N23P tubes are supposed to be more heavy-duty and not be noticeably microphonic. I also got 4 of those tubes for like $20, there are some great deals on tubes from eBay sellers in Eastern Europe.

 The sunrise II is pretty much a modded and component-upgraded G3, while the Rock & Glass has more in common with the Schiit Lyr ( both Class A single-ended triode amps, except the R&G only needs one tube at a time). The way I see it, I jumped straight to a level of quality that I would be happy with and would last me for a long time. Zigis is coming from DIY roots and is kind of new to selling amps to others, but before this tube amp he's had some selling success on eBay with what I believe was a cmoy.

He may not have PCBs anymore, because after I bought mine I urged him to have the enclosures ready to go, so the PCBs may have gone into assembled amps. A completed amp is probably the best way to go, that way he can test everything's working well. It's up to you though.


----------



## DefQon

If you're looking at a G3 may well as well just skip it, drop a bit more extra cash and go for an all out diy Sunrise as it is imo the best simple kit designed 12AU7 amp out there for cheap that can also take 6v tubes. 
   
  If you do have some diy skills, you can start with a base Starving Student kit and upgrade from there and reach further than a Sunrise in most aspects related to sound only. A good chassis enclosure will not be cheap though depending on how you like your aesthetics.


----------



## Ponczomarinero

Problem with starving student is, there is no kit to build it. At least needs PCB to start. Another problem I cant find anyone or any place I can hear amplifier I will buy. I have read lot opinions about amps which I havent heard. I know I want hybrid or tube amplifier because specific sweet sound. Never forget my first bravo 2 with chineese 12au7 tube and women vocals. I was listening all my jazz music again and again.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  What I am thinking about my next headfi project is some tube / hybrid amp which takes my level up in sound quality. I am just afraid that lot of transformers and difficult enclosure for tube amps will be too much for me. This is a reason I prefer buying specially some cheneese amplifiers and improving them. This way hybrid amps are much convenient to do - no output trafos and high voltages. 
   
  Interesting thing about starving student, but what I have seen searching quickly SS using some strange kind of tubes which I couldn't find on ebay or they are much less popular than 12AU7 or 6922. There is no starving student kit on www.beezar.com some Torpedo instead which looks impresive. I wonder how it sounds 
   
  What about Minimax there is full kit on beezar.com ?
   
  Panda amplifier which is solid state is interesting to do. But next project stars after I have some decent tube amplifier for listening the music between DIY sessions 
   
   
   
  At the moment considering g3, sunrise and  Zigis (simply 6dj8 amp) the third one is winning. I belief putting decent tube brings me big fun with listening the music and rolling tubes.


----------



## DefQon

Use p2p for the Starving Student as p2p is the best you can get out of tube amp's. Use PCB's only when it is a must and required (or to skimp on high costs from p2p wiring efforts).
   
  Curious of this Zigis, what's the cost to get one built? Got plenty of 6DJ8 to 6SL7 adaptors.


----------



## Ponczomarinero

ZIgis is the same or little modified version of super simply 6dj8 amplifier ( http://www.head-fi.org/t/402067/a-super-simple-6dj8-headphone-amp/285 )
 Nothing special. Very simply design just double triode and some lm317 current regulators, just 2-3 condensators on signal path. Very easy to do.
  Possible to get some chinese kit with similar circuit which is 65 GBP completely done but with low quality elements. Still thinking about Project Sunrise
  but with postage to UK it makes the price something like 240$
   
  DefQon, have you heard Millet's MiniMax? is it worth to buy the kit from beezar.com? How to compare them both. I though Starving Student is a basic amp in Millets offer.


----------



## DefQon

Unfortunately I have not tried a Minimax but I have read some good things about it. I have tried there Torpedo before but I sold it as I was getting quite a lot of hum in the background way back before they updated there design.


----------



## Evshrug

Well, ask Zigis: http://www.head-fi.org/u/52399/zigis
He was just one of the people commenting in the thread about the design, I asked if someone would be willing to build one for me (as I don't have skill soldering or building electronics beyond plugging stuff in), and Zigis said he was hoping to make more for sale since his prototype sounded so nice. I'm pretty sure he'll be requesting member-of-the-trade status and putting up an eBay listing soon, he's already sold a handful solid-state amps in Europe and last I heard he had enclosures ready for a few more "Rock 'n Glass" tube amps. That's what he wants to call them by the way, a nod to it's hybrid nature I guess (is a Class-A single-ended triode amp a tube hybrid?)


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## DefQon

Yup.


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## Ponczomarinero

Finished allready with Project Sunrise II Kit.  
   
  Price including postage for both of them was simmilar. PS giving the same excellent quality of parts plus more refined design including separate heater supply, IRL transistors etc. 
   
  Now is time to find out some nice schematic or kit for decent low noise PSU / Voltage Regulator for it.
   
  thanx guys for a help with decision.


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## DefQon

Let me know what regulated discrete PSU you end up getting for your SII as I need a few as well.


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## luiscasgt

I got the Bravo Audio V2 with some modifications suggested by solderdude on the rockgrotto site. It's now driving my new DT880 600ohm cans and it drives them with so little effort.
   
  I also read about the garage1217 tube amps based on a similar design as the bravo audio but for that price I think I'll rather get the bottlehead crack.


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## Kingdom4Cans

If anyone's looking for a Bravo V2 to mod I've got one for sale on ebay right now. cheaper than retail, and it ships from US.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/190873561933?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649


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## luiscasgt

I'll be selling one soon, already modded. I'm currently building a Bottlehead Crack


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## yacobx

Im about to buy one of these for my DT880's 250ohm. Im currently using a cheap behringer amp. If I daisy chain together is that dangerous? Also, what tube is best for bass?


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## Evshrug

Why would you daisy chain them together? Seems unnecessary.


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## Tiemen

I've got the Rock'n Glass from Zigis Audio lab, mentioned in this thread. It's the best amp I had so far, some of them even more expensive.
 The R&G is in my opinion well worth the money.


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## Evshrug

Agreed!


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## VicW

I has been years since I took a soldering iron to my Dyna Pat 5 and Hafler 220(s).  I feel the need for heat.


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## cheapfi

Have any of you tried the Bravo as a preamp?   I am interested in trying the tube sound with a pair of powered monitor monitors (Fostex PM0.4Ns).
  
 I have been looking at various (very inexpensive) tube buffers on ebay, but the ability to also use the bravo with my Allesandro MS1s would be pretty cool.  I love to listen to old blues so I thought a tube amp sounds like a good choice.


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## techboy

I have tried Bravo Ocean as a preamp and it does add a lush sweet sound with tube warmth.


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## cheapfi

Thanks noone ever seems to report about that. 

If the ocean adds the tube warmth the v2 hopefully would as well.


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## techboy

Not warmth always, but a very pleasant sweetness. Warm or less warm depends on the tube as well. Bravo Ocean is a good way to try a hybrid amp, haven't tried V2 though


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## 5thAngel

This was quite the reassuring review. I have already bought the V2 after some less than in depth research, but it nice to see That I did well on this. I am honestly a total newbie when it comes to this. I figured I would start here With Bravo Audio.


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## robb.

has anyone done any measurements on their V2? i have my friend's V2 so i did some quick measurements on an audio precision. pretty disappointing. not remotely close to the specs listed on the product page. most notably the left output is about 3dB hotter than the right output; both are well below the total published gain with no load. THD at 1k was up around 1%.
  
 also, i pulled a data sheet for the 12AU7. it's running so close to cut off that all the comments about switching tubes to give it a sweeter or warmer sound make me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 .


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## tdockweiler

EDIT: Kind of meant to post this in the other thread..oh well...
  
 Has anyone tried the K702 or Q701 with the V2?
  
 I don't know if anyone has the same experience, but I think it's not really a good match. It's OK because I didn't buy it for that. Mostly just for a play toy.
  
 There is a ton of gain/volume, but my Q701 seems much more harsh and thin than it should be. Same results with other tubes and sources.
  
 The HD-650 however seems to love the V2. Not sure why, but maybe it's the tubes. With that headphone it sounds perfectly flat (The amp I mean).
  
 Lately i've been using the Bravo V2 hooked up to a Sony Blu-Ray player and using my HD-650. Sounds amazing to my ears and the soundstage is huge.
 I was watching "The Pacific" and felt like I was there..my Sony seems to actually have a very good DAC (AKM I believe) and has some warmth too.
  
 Wonder if Bravo makes a more powerful amp that's better suited for the Q701?
  
 BTW I think for the HD-650 the Bravo V2 is much better than the Schiit Vali hybrid tube amp. The Vali however is a better match for the Q701, but was awful with my HD-650.
  
 Overall for the V2 I'd say it was worth the price, but it's not an amp that sounds 3x it's asking price or anything. I could actually be perfectly happy using it for the HD-650 as my main amp though!


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## DefQon

If it sounds good, then it's good to you.


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## HughJanus

I use this with my Superlux HD330. It feels like heaven.


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## DJScope

hughjanus said:


> I use this with my Superlux HD330. It feels like heaven.


 
  
 How is the sound stage with this amp?


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## Shhhh

I have the Bravo V2 paired with my ATH-M50 headphones and was wondering if anyone has a tube to recommend that would pair better?  I'm currently using a cheap electro harmonix tube I found on Amazon.  Less noise and microphonic issues and a warmer sound than the stock tube, but the mids and highs still get a little tiresome after a half hour to hour of listening.  I'm hoping to find something relatively cheap - I don't want to dump a lot of cash into a $60 bargain amp.


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## robertzombie

Just bought a V2 second hand and giving it a first listen now and comparing it to my Rega Ear Mk1. Sounds fine so far, not as involving as the Ear but it's a different price category. I was wondering, how do I remove the tube? The seller sent the amp with a second, better tube but I can't figure out how to swap them. Do I just pull the existing tube out or do I need to take a screwdriver to the casing?


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## Shhhh

The existing tube should pull right out.


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## ianeith

I'm using it with a Gold Lion Custom Tube and HiFiMan HE 400 and playing Fallout 3 on the Xbox360. The combo eerily transports one directly to the wasteland.


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## DjBobby

Have anyone measured the output impedance of Bravos?


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## aigo

As it always goes with "too good to be true" expression, the true part may not necessarily turn genuine. So I start with the worst at the top,

 CONS

 1.    The volume is way too sensitive, and can hardly be controlled for the normal listening sessions, i.e. it is either loud or louder. In my particular unit tuning the volume down turns off the left channel sooner than the right one, and at some point only the right channel can be heard. Seems to be fine when set to louder.
    
 2.    The input terminals are wrongly labeled (white to red and red to white). It is not a problem when discovered, but the strangest part is that connecting through the 3.5mm mini jack input or the RCA produce audibly different results. I can not be even be guessing why.

 3.    Although the unit sounds quite good out of the box (at the right volume) the Chinese vacuum tube is just rubbish when compared to anything other. I picked up the Electro Harmonix 12AU7/ECC82 from a local guitar shop (€16) , and the difference is day and night. Which tells me that the price this unit is sold at is in fact not the price it will sound good at.

 PROS

 1.     Solid warm overall sound. Not as warm and pleasing with 300Ohm Sennheiser HD650 (I prefer the FIIO X5II output for it), but very noticeably better through the Beyerdynamic dt-770 (32 Ohm). The unit is apparently tuned to puts more current than the voltage out, which makes it more suitable for the low impedance headphones, and less so for the demanding ones.

 2.    Feels solidly built (surprisingly), and looks very nice also.
  
 3.    Can be fun at trying different vacuum tubes.

 I would have given it all 5, but the loud or louder volume is a big downer for me. Basically, unless modified, the unit can not be used for the long sessions as intended.


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## aigo

> The HD-650 however seems to love the V2. Not sure why, but maybe it's the tubes. With that headphone it sounds perfectly flat (The amp I mean).


 
 I don't think so. The HD-650 definitely sound better straight from FIIO x5II, and significantly worse (with HD 12AU7) through the V2. The V2 does sound better with the lower impedance headphones, than with the higher (as HD-650) ones. The Beyerdynamic DT-770 (32Ohm) do sound much better that the HD-650 through it. The LD3, on the other hand, is a better match for HD-650.


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## Ears Deluxe

I got my Bravo V2 a couple of weeks ago, and was feeling a little ambivalent about it driving my Etymotic ER4S and fed with a Fiio Andes. I switched out the stock tube with a burned-in JJ ECC82, which smoothed things out a bit, but still, I wasn't entirely in love. It just seemed a little harder and grainier than I wanted. So I decided to try a different tube and ordered a Tung Sol 12AU7W from Upscale Audio, and I can't believe the difference I'm hearing. It's day and night. This tube is UTTERLY grainless, even brand new and not yet run in. There is that ease, that musical flow, relaxed clarity, and emotional involvement that I love in tube gear. I'm enjoying songs that I had never cared for before, even nasty early digital recordings. So I'm now completely re-evaluating this amplifier, and I feel like I don't want or need anything more (at least for now--you know that at some point the need for a new toy will kick in). I'd never bought anything from Upscale before, and I chose them this time because they claim to do pretty through testing and hand-selecting of the tubes they sell (this one came with the test results hand-printed on the box). I can't say whether the tubey goodness I'm hearing is simply the sound of Tung Sol tubes or the result of Upscale's selection and testing, but either way, I sure am happy with what I'm hearing.


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## Geordieboy

I built my own based on the V2 but with some much needed improvements including taking the heaters out of the signal path


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## chrismini

The cool thing about using tubes for headphone amps is they don't need tons of current. Tubes for 2 channel stereo speakers are very expensive because they need very expensive tubes and transformers and you need very efficient speakers which doesn't give a lot of choice. One amplifier designer named Nelson Pass, who is a legend, came very close to designing solid state amps with his Aleph line back in the late 90's. They were pure single-ended class A and horribly inefficient. A 100W amp would pull 300W from the wall. They ran very hot. The heat sinks were around 120 degrees. These were not amps you wanted to leave on 24/7. But they sounded magnificent! His company is called Pass Audio Labs.


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