# L.K.S. Audio MH-DA004 Dual ES9038PRO DAC - Van Damme's double impact?



## PitBul34

L.K.S. Audio put a new MH-DA004 Dual ES9038PRO DAC on the market today:
  

  
 https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/l-k-s-audio-mh-da004-dual-es9038pro-flagship-dac-dsd-input-coaxial-bnc-aes-ebu-for-dop-usb-i2s-optical-audio-decoder.html
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/L-K-S-Audio-MH-DA004-Dual-ES9038pro-Flagship-DAC-DSD-I2S-Optical-Audio-Decoder-/112343384712
  
*Specs:*
  
 1. *Two-chip ES9038pro decoding method*.
 2. Two high-quality toroidal transformers, a total of 13 groups of linear power supply.
 3. Built-in specially designed Italian Amanero USB module, original license license. USB module added to isolate the chip, you can isolate the computer to the audio system interference signal.
 4. Supports USB, I2S / DSD single-ended signal (RJ45), I2S / DSD balanced signal (HDMI), oaxial, BNC, AES / EBU balance, Optical total seven-way source input, all ports support DSD input.
 5. Analog audio output port includes standard RCA single-ended output and XLR balanced output pair.
 6. Display with VFD display, the display exceptionally outstanding.
 7. Use physical key operation.
 8. Support 0dB ~ -127dB digital volume adjustment, 0.5dB level. But also has a remote key to skip the volume adjustment function.
 9. Support a variety of digital filter mode settings (see user manual). Can be arbitrarily selected, different filter mode, the digital filter attenuation characteristics are different.
 10. Supports decoding of internal digital phase-locked loop bandwidth settings (see user's manual for details).
 11. Support Deemphasis to increase or turn off.
 12. The display has 4 levels of brightness adjustable. Adjusted by remote control.
 13. Remote start, standby function.
 14. Most of the settings with memory function, turn off the opportunity to automatically save the settings, restart the settings.
 15. Dynamic range> 135dB
 16. Distortion <0.0002%
 17. Stereo resolution> 120dB
 18. RCA unbalanced port output amplitude 2Vrms, XLR balanced port output amplitude 5Vrms.
 19. Machine size 430 * 320 * 90mm
 20. Machine weight 7.0kg
  
*Packing lists:*
  
 1. remote control * 1
 2. manual * 1
 3. Product certificate
 4. Power cord
 5. USB cable
 6. USB driver and use the settings method to download 
  
*User manual:*
  
 http://www.mu-sound.com/files/MH-DA004.pdf


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## Sanlitun

I just came across this myself. Looks very very interesting for the price.


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## seenc

Look at the photo more precisely! it has 9028, not 9038.


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## Ric Schultz

The photo of the naked DACs is probably from the old 003 DAC.  Look at the photo next to it.  The DACs have heatsinks on them because the 9038s run so hot.....this is probably why they used the old photo to let you see that they are ESS DACS.  I am sure if you remove the heatsinks you will see 9038s there.  They are not that stupid to deceive us.  They would loose all business if they did that.  This is the first DAC in the world, that I know of, that uses mono 9038s....pretty cool.


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## Whitigir

I placed my order. Instead of looking around at other DAC. I will give ESS9038Pro x2 a chance. The picture do look like ESS9028Pro


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## audiobill

whitigir said:


> I placed my order. Instead of looking around at other DAC. I will give ESS9038Pro x2 a chance. The picture do look like ESS9028Pro


 
 Congrats, please share your impressions with us once you receive it. It certainly looks like it has the goods with the dual ES9038PRO DACs, multiple regulated supplies, discrete outputs, etc. TIA!


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## Whitigir

audiobill said:


> Congrats, please share your impressions with us once you receive it. It certainly looks like it has the goods with the dual ES9038PRO DACs, multiple regulated supplies, discrete outputs, etc. TIA!




Yes, it look like it is built to it best. Discrete class A components are excellent. It also uses Jensen Capacitors


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## hyperdanny

it it all very confusing..on the mu sound website, that seems the closest thing to an official LKS website, there's no trace of the 004.
 There's a 003 MKII that looks exacly like this one sold by Shenzhen (straight-line bottom front vs. the curved bottom of the old one)..and it's plainly declared it has ESS9028 not 9038...


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## Whitigir

003 with 9028 doesn't have Jensen Capacitors, look closer. The 004 is very new, and it does have Jensen Capacitors with some more regulators due to how much current each 9038Pro would demand. There is a manual book for 004


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## b0bb

whitigir said:


> I placed my order. Instead of looking around at other DAC. I will give ESS9038Pro x2 a chance. The picture do look like ESS9028Pro


 

 Did you get the 120V AC input version, the Ebay listings do not mention multivoltage options.
 I sent off a message to Shenzen audio asking them about this.


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## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> Did you get the 120V AC input version, the Ebay listings do not mention multivoltage options.
> I sent off a message to Shenzen audio asking them about this.




Yes, I did ask for that. It is an easy fix either way, as they uses toroidal transformer


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## Whitigir

I supposed to have this on Wednesday!! Yayyy, so much impatient that I can not wait


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## Whitigir

Finally, it is here. Couldn't wait to set her in ! Can not believe the build quality of the chassis and even the remote control itself is solid chunk of milled aluminum.


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## jieranli

> Finally, it is here. Couldn't wait to set her in ! Can not believe the build quality of the chassis and even the remote control itself is solid chunk of milled aluminum.


 
  
 It is a beauty you got there. Looking forward to an early impression


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## Whitigir

jieranli said:


> It is a beauty you got there. Looking forward to an early impression




What specific questions or curiosity do you have there for first impression ?


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## hyperdanny

if I looked correctly at the pictures on various sites, there's nothing that differentiates it cosmetically from the 003 mkII: the chassis seems the same, and I did not spot any model type code that says 004 on it...
 Sure what I saw could have been prototype pics..so what about these first regularly sold ones..is it still so? I would find it a little disquieting---


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## Whitigir

hyperdanny said:


> if I looked correctly at the pictures on various sites, there's nothing that differentiates it cosmetically from the 003 mkII: the chassis seems the same, and I did not spot any model type code that says 004 on it...
> Sure what I saw could have been prototype pics..so what about these first regularly sold ones..is it still so? I would find it a little disquieting---




004 uses discrete class A output With Jensen Capacitors and not nichicon


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## hyperdanny

whitigir said:


> 004 uses discrete class A output With Jensen Capacitors and not nichicon


 

 yes I read the previous posts but this is exactly the point...this means you need to open it to be sure of what you got?


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## Whitigir

hyperdanny said:


> yes I read the previous posts but this is exactly the point...this means you need to open it to be sure of what you got?




Seems so, and I have yet to open mine lol

Actually, I was wrong. Here is the respond I got from the company

Hi，
When the DAC is powered on, it will display MH-DA004.
Thanks.

Also, the transformer wires are UPOCC wires of 6N purity  Sweet!!!



Jinbo 13736435280


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## hyperdanny

whitigir said:


> Seems so, and I have yet to open mine lol
> 
> Actually, I was wrong. Here is the respond I got from the company
> 
> ...


 
 that's a lot better, thank you very much for the info!
  
 As a possessor of a X-20 based on the previous 9018 Sabre generation, I will read with great interest your impressions on the 9038-based LKS---  i'm especially interested in understanding if with the 9038 they have been able to get rid of the digital harshness that sometimes creepes in,  retaining (and maybe even improving) the level of detail that was one of the aces of the 9018.


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## PitBul34

whitigir said:


> Finally, it is here. Couldn't wait to set her in ! Can not believe the build quality of the chassis and even the remote control itself is solid chunk of milled aluminum.


 
 WOW! Cool! Review it please as fast as you can! And would you be so kind to take some photos inside, thanks!


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## Whitigir

Here, I got the screenshot for me. It only appears for couple seconds, so I had to take it twice to see it 



First impressions:
On your question regarding the typical glares, cold Signature from ESS Sabres ? Well, my Carbon is all Silver wires, power cord, Interconnect, USB cables, they are solid pure silver wires all around it, and together with 009. I do not hear the typical ESS Sabres coldness or glares, but in it places, it is the soundstage, nuances details, smooth, transparency, extensions that I have never heard before. The lingering of Cymbals self generated rings in which way it is being controlled are uniquely heard in live recording


It is the combination of airy detailed treble with vivid tonality and resolution with great "smooth extensions"

Soundstage ? expansive, very wide. It gets as wide as when you think this is so wide...it gets wider...lol! Depends on the track, but it can render the field and scape in a distinctive way that each tracks can tell you it story as where it is being recorded, hall reverberated? Room echoes ? All of these background details are there.



Bass is "absolute", and to me when I call out the bass being Absolute is when it has 0 distortions, and 0 mistakes in playbacks, unless it was the recording error itself. Usually live and older records could have these errors, but newer synthesis bass and sub bass are computer generated, it is deep, powerful and generally 0 errors. So in complex passage and it has no "miniature distortions", this is the absolute bass in my opinion. When the bass get to this level of accuracy and energy delivery, you can bet that the rest of it is a mouthful of drool worthy performances. It is so vivid, detailed that it seems like there are infinite amount of bass plays and spectrums being generated, each of them are separated and carry it own body, energy, and can not be confused. 

Vocal, and female extensions can sometime be very harsh, especially for Sabres, and or brighter gears. Once again, there is no funny monkey glares or spikes that could bother me here. It does extend very well that I can clearly hear it raised to be almost sharp and glare, but then it just stop right there and the glares or spikes never happened. It could be the filter DSP ? There are 7 modes. It will take me a long time to play around and find my sweet spot, but I sit at default Fast roll-off and Linear phase.

Background is dead silent, and the dynamic range of the dual 9038pro is not marketing, there are details within the tonal body, and extensions that are definitely there that I didn't get with my other combo Ta-ZH1Es and Utopia 

Yes, I know burn-in is needed and all that. But Burn-in usually make it better and not worse. My first impressions are very impressive and positive. In a way that I can say this with confidence, if this DAC was not designed by the People of China, and manufacturered by them, but by any other reputable brands, you would think that 5-6k for this level of performances, build, quality, was to be acceptable.



There are this little venting on top of the device, and better not be covered up. I did have my Walkman dock atop of it foe an hour or so, and it did get slightly warmer than when I don't cover it up.


The build is top notch, and No, it does not look like any cheap Chinese knock-off or lousy job to make money. It look like a product of "pride, disciplinary, well engineered" result. The vibes of your typical "high-end" devices coming from Japan or Italy

I have swapped out my Silver-gold USB cables for the UPOCC Silver type. This cables in my experiences, always brought about more brightness, extensions, details, and more harsh.....I almost wanted to toss it into the trash can so many many times. It did negatively impacting Oppo Ha-1, TA-Zh1es. However, on this DAC, it is awesome, more details are being retrieved in the treble spectrum and it extensions, no harshness still.


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## Whitigir

Lol, I don't have any "urge" to open her up just yet. The sound is too beautiful to even "want to" put any screw drivers onto her body


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## hyperdanny

thank you Whitigir ,
 this is a great review, very nicely written,  and it touches basically all my main concerns (_ I am a detail&soundstage freak)..._..enjoy your new DAC!


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## penguin69

A​s per Whitigir's request on another thread, I'm posting here also as I recently acquired the 004, having previously acquired a partially modified 003, which I then further modified in one or two places (and ultimately destroyed, due to lack of care).
  
 The 004 sounds good, with no obvious weaknesses, equivalent I would say to my modified 003. There are a few filter settings and the DPLL bandwidth can be refined also, so in truth there is no 'absolute' sound of the 004. My hearing isn't great so I'm not sure I will pick up the subtleties of the different filter settings, but I will try them at some point nevertheless.
  
 The metal casing is slightly warm to the touch, but not as hot perhaps as I was expecting, given the photos I have seen of the 9038's with heat sinks attached.
  
 I suppose the discrete output stage is a nice touch, but I would have liked to have been able to match and roll op amps, as I was able to with the 003 and with my previous Eastern Electric DAC's. Having said that, I'm not sure that any of the discrete op amps I currently possess would fare particularly well with the higher current output of the 9038's.
  
 When I get a bit more time I will post some close-ups of the internals of the unit, for those interested in seeing and identifying the components used in critical places. I was going to do this in the 003 thread, but I guess this thread is the more appropriate place moving forward.


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## Whitigir

Discrete op-amps are basically trying to mimicking and perform at the level of discrete class A. There is nothing surpassing that, unless we are talking about more expensive and exotic components


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## penguin69

Or properly matched components! The 004 discrete components will fit a price point, and may not necessary work well together (but, based on initial impressions, do). Component synergy probably is a difficult calculation, which is why I like to be able to roll op amps - you can chop and change to find what best suits your system/ears. 
  
 But I do essentially agree with your point. And some of the money I have spent on discrete op amps, ouch! I do wonder how much it would cost to replicate pluggable discrete op amp performance just using discrete components on the PCB.
  
 Eastern Electric DAC's, as an aside, allow tube rolling - with the tube located externally to facilitate the process!


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## Roen

whitigir said:


> Lol, I don't have any "urge" to open her up just yet. The sound is too beautiful to even "want to" put any screw drivers onto her body




How can you test if it's 9038 and not 9028?


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## Whitigir

roen said:


> How can you test if it's 9038 and not 9028?




There is Virtually no way to test, unless physically remove the heatsink and read the model number, but I wouldn't bother doing that. This is the case for many DAC as well, and some of them can not even be opened that easy . All I need to know is that it sound good, and it look good, the components are good. That is what matter. Now, if it sound like shix, and look cheap, then I would be opening it up to verify and ofcourse returning it lol

Anyways, that is not the case, this DAC is wonderful, too wonderful for it asking price, period

Why in the hell is this remote encased in a nice solid chunk of milled aluminum again ?


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## AcidGreen

Thanks for sharing your initial thoughts on this LKS. I've been going around in circles lately with Gustard and Matrix models but this dual ES9048PRO setup sounds ideal... I could be placing an order this week!


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## hyperdanny

does anybody know if the I2S HDMI plug is compatible with the PS Audio pins?
 For example I know the new Matrix Pro is..and unfortunately my Gustard is not (HDMI, but different pins)


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## Whitigir

hyperdanny said:


> does anybody know if the I2S HDMI plug is compatible with the PS Audio pins?
> For example I know the new Matrix Pro is..and unfortunately my Gustard is not (HDMI, but different pins)




How about looking for a pins out arrangement no PS audio then compare to 004 ? I don't have PS audio or familiar with it


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## Whitigir

This unit only run up to 33 C in temperature measured with a temp gun. Internally it could only get up to 10 more degree, so 45C maximum ? My ambient is 25C, so that it runs 8-10C more than the ambient. If you live in hot climates about 34C, then it should run up to 45C and internally unto 60C and that is super hot. I still think it is well within specs. But those are pure speculations. Mine is happily running 33C


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## Robert McAdam

Whitigir did you buy the version with the upgrade USB? Looks like they have introduced an upgraded USB model which may negate the Intona for USB.
 I see that the I2S input can take up to 768k where as USB is 384k. Have you tried different inputs yet? The way this Dac is designed it looks like even the Singxer SU1 may not be necessary. 
  
 This dac looks very good on paper.


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## Ric Schultz

Just got mine in....what battery does the remote take?  Not in the manual.


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## penguin69

I think it takes triple A's, but not 100% sure - I use the old remote from my 003 as it's identical!


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## Ric Schultz

Thanks,
 Figured it out....it takes the CR2025....same as the Gustard remote.  This DAC is huge!
  
 By the way, the heatsinks on the 9038s get pretty darn warm....almost hot....this indicates for sure they are 9038 as the 9028 you can leave your finger directly on the chip forever and practically feel nothing.  Cannot remove the heatsinks as they are epoxied to the chip.
  
 Also the Jensen caps have morphed into Mundorfs.


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## Whitigir

No it takes ...what, you meant Jansen caps now are replaced by Mundorf on your version ?


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## Ric Schultz

OK, but the CR2025 from my Gustard remote makes it work.
  
 Yes, there are no Jensen caps....instead there are Mundorf caps.....in mine...don't know what you have.
  
 I will give a short listen some time later this week.....got to get into modding the Sonica first (poor thing, only has one 9038 (also with heatsink....ceramic type).


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## Whitigir

Mundorf Capacitors are good stuff. Did you pay more than the regular price ? Mine has Jensen Capacitors, and they are supposedly top tier as well


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## Ric Schultz

I paid millions extra to get those exotic caps.....he he......no, they probably could not get enough Jensens in time so they just switched brands.


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## Whitigir

Well, we will see if modifying the 004 will net in much better results ? IMO, the 004 sound is beautiful and exotic so far, the only concern would be the Nichicon finegold Capacitors longevity. They should last upto 3-5 years just fine though


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## penguin69

whitigir said:


> Well, we will see if modifying the 004 will net in much better results ? IMO, the 004 sound is beautiful and exotic so far, the only concern would be the Nichicon finegold Capacitors longevity. They should last upto 3-5 years just fine though


 
  
 The 003 sounded very average to my ears and needed changes. For some reason the Crystek 575 XO just didn't perform. The upgrades made a big difference, turning the DAC from something I didn't want to listen to into a very nice sounding unit.
  
 The 004, as you say, sounds really good out of the box (even with the 575!). So my gut feel is that any improvements/gains brought about by mods could well be less noticeable. 
  
 I bought this unit as a modification platform, so I will be hacking away once it has burned in and I get some free time. First targets will be the easy ones, namely the XO and the analogue rectifiers.


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## Whitigir

Hm, if swapping out the crystek can improve that much, then it will be worth it. Which one are you swapping into ? Regarding my stalling issues, it only happen when I powered up and use it right away, when I let it warm up for 10 minutes, I don't have it....strange.


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## penguin69

whitigir said:


> Hm, if swapping out the crystek can improve that much, then it will be worth it. Which one are you swapping into ? Regarding my stalling issues, it only happen when I powered up and use it right away, when I let it warm up for 10 minutes, I don't have it....strange.


 

 I will put in a 4 pin (14 pin size) DIP board - it fits in the holes outside of the stock XO - and try at least a couple of different XO's. I'll probably try the Crystek 950 first. I fitted this in the 003, and it made a positive difference. And then there are the Pulsars, but they are orders of magnitude more expensive.
  

  
  
 If I am honest, the 575 actually sounds fine in the 004. I also have the 575 in my Eastern Electric DAC and it sounds good there too. Both b0bb and I found the 575 to sound thin and somewhat brittle in the 003. 
  
 I guess it's just horses for courses and implementations. The good thing is that it is fairly easy to try different XO's once the DIP board is in place. No soldering required, just pop them in and out.


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## Whitigir

Yes, the 004 to me does sound beautiful. It is hard to believe a manufacturer from China can pull off such a feast


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## penguin69

There's a lot of good kit that has its origins in the Far East. My last 4 DACs are from either China or Hong Kong, all very good and somewhat cheaper than American and European near-equivalents. When I see American single chip DACs selling for nearly $5000 I do scratch my head.
  
 Fiio is another good audio company out of China, their kit is quite popular in Europe currently.


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## rafabro

ric schultz said:


> Just got mine in....what battery does the remote take?  Not in the manual.


 
 Can you compare LKS vs X20 vs modded X20?
 This could be very interesting comparison. Specially with moded gustard which is real killer...


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## PitBul34

Bought one L.K.S Audio MH-DA004 upgraded USB edition via shenzhenaudio.com today! Hope it will come in 10-14 days..


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## Whitigir

pitbul34 said:


> Bought one L.K.S Audio MH-DA004 upgraded USB edition via shenzhenaudio.com today! Hope it will come in 10-14 days..




You bought from where I did, and they shipped it via EMS


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## rafabro

pitbul34 said:


> Bought one L.K.S Audio MH-DA004 upgraded USB edition via shenzhenaudio.com today! Hope it will come in 10-14 days..


 
 Now we will expect comparison to Denafrips


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## PitBul34

rafabro said:


> Now we will expect comparison to Denafrips


 
 I'll do it as fast as LKS 004 will come.


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## mko71

roen said:


> How can you test if it's 9038 and not 9028?


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## Whitigir

I am reading es9028pro ? The 9038 pro shall have more current if measured from Bobb statements


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## mko71

whitigir said:


> I am reading es9028pro ? The 9038 pro shall have more current if measured from Bobb statements




It's a picture right off the eBay listing:
http://m.ebay.com/itm/L-K-S-Audio-MH-DA004-USB-Dual-ES9038pro-DAC-DSD-I2S-Audio-Decoder-110V-to-240V-/112343384712

Now that I look at it closer, it does look like it says 9028...


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## b0bb

Measuring the 9038 output current with a full scale input is the most accurate way.
 A quicker but less accurate method is to measure the temperature at the center of the chip with the cover in place.
  
 9038 : 72ºC
 9018 : 40-45ºC
  
 I expect the 9028 would be at similar temps to the 9018 as the output current is the same.
 If the 9038 in the 004 is fake the running temp is much lower.


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## OscarIam

Hi everyone, I just bought a MH-DA004 and I am really disapointed. When I am listening to any DSD 64 I have a terrible noise every 15 seconds or so, and this get a lot worse for DSD 256. And the USB input does not accept even 384 Khz. My portable Chord Mojo is able to convert all those files, from the same sources, DSD 256 and 512 without any problem, and PCM to 768 seamlessly and sounds beautifull.
  
    My opinion is that I made a terrible mistake buying this, I should have bought the oppo with the single ES9038PRO )
  
    Anyone has tried those formats without problems?


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## rafabro

Maybe you need someone to properly install drivers for you


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## Whitigir

rafabro said:


> Maybe you need someone to properly install drivers for you




Lol, seems to be the case


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## Robert McAdam

> My opinion is that I made a terrible mistake buying this, I should have bought the oppo with the single ES9038PRO )


 
 Don't panic until all avenues are covered. Personally I don't think the Oppo is the answer. Potentially the LKS should be better. In saying this you may have a faulty unit. But software and connections can be problematic. Also your source. Restarting items after renewed software etc.
  
 Ric Schultz may give us some insight into the sound from this new player soon. Seems few of these players are in the hands of reviewers yet.


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## kirbyt

Your dpll mode is probably set to low for dsd playback, I had to put mine to 12 I believe before it stopped causing noise drop outs.


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## colour97

i also want to buy this dac and i qq factory to clarify regarding 9028.
  
 his self statement is he used wrong photo at the description.
  
 it is 9038, but it is fixed and sticked  under the heatsink.


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## Whitigir

There is nothing to worry about, Bobb already do all the measurements and it is safe to say that 9038 dual is being used in this device.  I can certainly tell you with my ears is that the 004 sounds so freaking awesome.


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## PitBul34

Got my L.K.S 004 yesterday!


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## Whitigir (May 6, 2017)

How does it go , also see u have mundorf and not Jansen caps ? Hmmm


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## PitBul34 (May 7, 2017)

Whitigir said:


> How does it go , also see u have mundorf and not Jansen caps ? Hmmm


I think, Mundorf caps are good too. After 24h burning-in, Mr.004 sounds pretty good for me: intelligent and super-fine, the best choice for classic and jazz, imo. Very deep, layered soundstage with extra micro- and macrodynamic. Every low-level details are picked up, so.. i can associate this DAC with Hubble Deep Space exploration program


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## colour97

mine can be picked up on monday  but i only have day off coming thursday .
DA004 has 2 usb version, cheaper one is ordinary usb, usd 50 more is better clock
version,
i picked cheaper one and ordered singxer f-1  for coaxial output.


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## Whitigir

PitBul34 said:


> I think, Mundorf caps are good too. After 24h burning-in, Mr.004 sounds pretty good for me: intelligent and super-fine, the best choice for classic and jazz, imo. Very deep, layered soundstage with extra micro- and macrodynamic. Every low-level details are picked up, so.. i can associate this DAC with Hubble Deep Space exploration program


Agree, the 004 is a very good sounding unit


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## bballas

soundware d100 pro just mid fi audio source.how can you compare??????you are crazy?


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## Whitigir

Then look at it from this point of view considering


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## PitBul34

With this soundtrack from megapoular russian 'blockbuster' "Seventeen Moments of Spring" (means Spring 1945) I congrats you, guys, with the Victory Day!


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## PitBul34

LKS Audio MH-DA004 dual ES9038 DAC - male vocal - test #2



LKS Audio MH-DA004 dual ES9038 DAC - jazz variants - test #3



LKS Audio MH-DA004 dual ES9038 DAC - female vocal - test #4


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## PitBul34

LKS Audio MH-DA004 dual ES9038 DAC - Oriental variants (Le Trio Joubran) - test #5


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## Robert McAdam

"Pitbull34" I'm not sure what the point of the sounds from your system posts are using this DAC. It is not relevant unless you include a comparison with the same music on another DAC from your system to compare Dac's for example. The sound bytes you provide have no reference for anybody but yourself and your friends. They are off interest music or system wise but perhaps on a different forum.

This new LK004 DAC is off particular interest to me, and constructive comparisons to other Dac's like Holo Spring and Benchmark DAC3 have yet to be made.


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## PitBul34

Robert McAdam said:


> It is not relevant unless you include a comparison with the same music on another DAC from your system to compare Dac's for example.



I think, my videos are better than silence or a text description of sound.  But It's allready done, please visit my youtube channel. 

Here it is, LKS 004 dual ES9038 vs Oppo Sonica single ES9038:


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## PitBul34 (May 10, 2017)

*How to make IIS (I2S) cable to connect Soundaware D100 digital transport to LKS 003, 004 DAC:*

*You need:
*
- 2x RJ-45 connectors
- 25-30 sm of twisted pair
- Crimp tool

*General scheme:*









*What to do scheme:*





*Soundaware connector (IIS-output):*

Pin 1 - empty
Pin 2 - orange
Pin 3 - white-orange
Pin 4 - blue
Pin 5 - white-blue
Pin 6 - green
Pin 7 - white-green
Pin 8 - brown

*LKS connector (IIS-E input):*

Pin 1 - white-orange
Pin 2 - orange
Pin 3 - white-green
Pin 4 - blue
Pin 5 - white-blue
Pin 6 - green
Pin 7 - white-brown (just cut it)
Pin 8 - brown

Have fun!


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## Robert McAdam

Has anyone done a direct comparison with the Holo Spring or the Benchmark Dac3 using this LKS004 Dac?


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## colour97

i am pre holo spring owner （changed silver transformer and audionote transformer at aes）

just got my 004.
i am using singxer f-1 for usb instead of factory usb.


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## hicr49

colour97 said:


> i am pre holo spring owner （changed silver transformer and audionote transformer at aes）
> 
> just got my 004.
> i am using singxer f-1 for usb instead of factory usb.


Did you order your 004 with upgraded USB or regular USB? Do you find the f-1 still better than its onboard USB?


----------



## colour97

mine is regular usb version. ab comparsion, f1 is much better than onboard usb.
f1 background is much clearer.  onboard usb is noisy.


----------



## PitBul34

LKS 004, upgraded Amanero ver. USB module test:

LKS Audio MH-DA004 dual ES9038 DAC - USB -male vocal- test #6


LKS Audio MH-DA004 dual ES9038 DAC - USB -jazz variants- test #7


LKS Audio MH-DA004 dual ES9038 DAC - USB -female vocal- test #8



LKS Audio MH-DA004 dual ES9038 DAC - USB -Oriental variants- test #9


----------



## PitBul34

Chris Cornell R.I.P. (((((((((



He was my favorite rocker....... So sad!!!


----------



## Lennym

I enjoy reading your initial impressions on this DAC.

Since I'm currently using an Oppo 105, have a lot of disks and want to upgrade, I'd simply like to ask if anyone with the DAC uses it to play physical media.  Is it fine through the coax SPDIF?  Or do you use other ins and outs?

Thanks.


----------



## PitBul34

Lennym said:


> I'd simply like to ask if anyone with the DAC uses it to play physical media.  Is it fine through the coax SPDIF?



Yes, i do it via coax. I have a lot of CD-DA and TEAC VRDS 10 as a digital CD-transport. CD-DA sounds fine via LKS 004 SPDIF, imo.

LKS Audio MH-DA004 dual ES9038 DAC -CD-DA playback- test #10


LKS Audio MH-DA004 dual ES9038 DAC -CD-DA playback- test #11


----------



## mb3

Lennym said:


> I enjoy reading your initial impressions on this DAC.
> 
> Since I'm currently using an Oppo 105, have a lot of disks and want to upgrade, I'd simply like to ask if anyone with the DAC uses it to play physical media.  Is it fine through the coax SPDIF?  Or do you use other ins and outs?
> 
> Thanks.


From my exerience there are no probs with any input. The key question would be what sounds better - lks 004 with amanero usb upgrade or standard fed by i2s from a ddc like singxer su1.


----------



## Lennym

Thanks for your comments and help.  In his head-fi review of the Singxer, project86 writes: "The little D200 has a nice Amanero USB board running off internal linear power, and it works well enough to where the Singxer can't do a whole lot better - it's already bumping up against the limits of the DAC."  That suggest to me that the Amanero usb upgrade is probably the way to go, unless the performance of the Yulong is so far below the level of the LKS that the comparison is irrelevant.  But then IIUC the Amanero upgrade is a higher spec board than what might be in the D200.


----------



## mb3

Not too sure - some report that i2s is innately better. I haven't got a singxer. I'm mostly using USB from pc to wyrd with good results. But also have no probs with optical and coax.

From my experience the file type is more important - the higher the file sampling frequency, the greater the rate of hearing static / white noise, with most dsd256 files being unplayable except at dpll > 8.

I found that pcm files played back at dpll set to 1, sounded better than native dsd files with high dpll.


----------



## canthearyou

I can't find 004 at shenzhen.com.


----------



## phthora

canthearyou said:


> I can't find 004 at shenzhen.com.



Yo...

https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/l-k-s...bu-for-dop-usb-i2s-optical-audio-decoder.html


----------



## canthearyou

Cool. Thanks!


----------



## briant4pres

does anyone know if this DAC will accept DSD1024 over i2s?


----------



## Lennym

The manual reads: I2S 输⼊ I2S input PCM 44.1K~768K 24/32bit DSD64~DSD1024 DOP 64~256

So the answer seems to be "yes."


----------



## Lennym (May 29, 2017)

The discounts have begun.  Best thing about this pricing for me is that the upgrade is more of a no-brainer.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/252851156650


----------



## Ric Schultz

Lennym said:


> The discounts have begun.  Best thing about this pricing for me is that the upgrade is more of a no-brainer.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/252851156650



This is not a discount.....in fact, the price without the better usb is more than directly from Shenzhen Audio.


----------



## Robert McAdam

Rick hows the new LKS004 sounding? No one has yet compared it to anything seriously.


----------



## Lennym (Jun 1, 2017)

Ric Schultz said:


> This is not a discount.....in fact, the price without the better usb is more than directly from Shenzhen Audio.



Well it was offered for less when I posted, and for a time afterward.  I ordered the DAC with USB upgrade for $1439.  Without the upgrade it was then $1395.  Hasn't been shipped yet; we'll see.

About "directly":  Isn't Shenzhen Audio just a retailer?


----------



## fjc36

Have anyone compare to or own a OPPO Sonic DAC?


----------



## PitBul34

fjc36 said:


> Have anyone compare to or own a OPPO Sonic DAC?



Yes, i do. LKS 004 dual ES9038 vs Oppo Sonica single ES9038:


----------



## canthearyou

PitBul34 said:


> Yes, i do. LKS 004 dual ES9038 vs Oppo Sonica single ES9038:




So they sound the same?


----------



## Robert McAdam (Jun 5, 2017)

All I can say is the LKS seems less bright than the Oppo but thats on my small pc sound system. 

I will run through my main system later.

Was the LKS connected via COAX?

Comparing using USB inputs would be good on both.


----------



## fjc36 (Jun 5, 2017)

Thanks, PitBul34, I have to repeats lots of AB test to grip the differences. My first impression listening through my ASUS sound card and microlab active speakers from my Desk Top computer is, LKS 004 is more dynamic and with better resolutions. It seems OPPO has compromise something for the cost. I may well change my opinion later. Besides, SDAC has many useful functions. But, sonic quality gets primary concern at this moment.

Can you give some on classical music, i.e. violin string quart, not symphonic type?
Do you have a verdict also?


----------



## Robert McAdam

I listened through my main system and LKS4 is better than Oppo as you would expect. But this is not enough information to make a decision. The price difference means either are value for money. Although we don't have a comparison with the Holo or Benchmark Dac3 which are on a similar level.


----------



## Whitigir

Since better is not good enough...man, you need a brand too....go for Chord Dave


----------



## Lennym

Received the unit today, beautifully packed and in great shape.  Apparently held up for a while by Chinese holiday.  Tried it through coax with one CD so far, "Breaking Silence."  I can't believe the focus of its presentation.  I've never heard anything like it from digital on my system.  Compared to the Oppo 105 it seems a bit darker.  Bass is full, but crisp.  Will wait for some break-in before really evaluating.

Just a quick question for anyone with the unit.  Just want to verify I got what I should.  It lights up "MH-DA004 ES9038PRO" as it should.  But I want to verify I received the upgrade USB and tried to remove the top.  Took out all the screws, but the top is in so tight I can't get it off.   The metal work is all very substantial.  Any suggestions?  Is there a tool?  Any harm in loosening the screws in the back?  Or is there a way to verify for now without removing the top?  Thanks for any suggestions.


----------



## Lennym

Finally got the top off.  It wasn't easy.  Everything looks fine including the upgrade USB.  The top and bottom plates are an eighth of an inch thick and (too) carefully fitted.  There is no sheet metal on this unit; it's built like a brick.  Running the unit for 24 hours the "dark" quality is gone and it sounds fine.  Actually it sounds great.  Very smooth, VERY dynamic, and the spacial aspects are spectacular.  I've just played a couple of classical CDs.  Many, many steps above the Oppo.  No surprise, but it feels good to confirm.  The last time I had this feeling is when I replaced a pretty good transistor phono pre with a very good all tube unit.  Not that the sound is the same, but the quality is there.  There'll be more breaking in and I'll start putting in some higher resolution files.


----------



## PitBul34 (Jun 10, 2017)

canthearyou said:


> So they sound the same?



No, LKS 004 is a bit expressive, more detailed and pleasure sound.

*LKS Audio MH-DA004 DAC test - 11 videos*

*Oppo Sonica DAC test - 19 videos
*


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 10, 2017)

004 has a very pinpointed accuracy on layering, separation, imagines.  Tonal timbres is also very authentic with vivid definitions.  It also has a very wide and deep soundstage.  I would call it a high definition in audio reproduction as far as DAC go.  It deserve to be on the high-end productions run up.

Technically it has regulated power supply, and class A discrete analog output stage with audiophile components.  Then on top of that it also has dual top of the line DAC chip from eSS Sabres ES9038 Pro.  Yet, there maybe upgrades if you want to tinker with it yourself, but out of the box it price to performances ratio are slot into the extreme.

All of that lead into one final conclusion, the 004 is an excellent piece of equipment for it asking price from my experiences by using my Stax 009 system


----------



## Lennym

HI guys, I could use a little help here.  My LKS is playing fine but I have an issue that I can't figure out.  Until today I was just playing CDs.

But today I was playing files from my computer using JRiver into the upgraded USB port using the driver provided by mu-sound.com.  I'm using files from a high res sampler site, 2l.no. 

As an example I played a Hayden Quartet file given as: Stereo 24BIT/192kHz which JRiver recognizes as: 5153 FLAC.  
I'm also playing the same music from a file given as: DSD 5.6448 Mbit/s which JRiver recognizes as: 11298 dff.

The music sounds fine, though at the moment that is not my issue.  What my problem is, is that the front screen never changes from "PCM 44K" which is what it displays even when nothing is playing.  Problem with my LKS?  Or problem with me?


----------



## vick_v

Lennym said:


> HI guys, I could use a little help here.  My LKS is playing fine but I have an issue that I can't figure out.  Until today I was just playing CDs.
> 
> But today I was playing files from my computer using JRiver into the upgraded USB port using the driver provided by mu-sound.com.  I'm using files from a high res sampler site, 2l.no.
> 
> ...



Is it possible you've setup JRiver to downsample when streaming to your DAC?


----------



## Lennym

Thanks Vic_V.  Actually, that wan't the problem, but you put me on the right trail to the audio settings page.  I was certain that I had set it up for ASIO output, but apparently I had not.  So now it's fine, really fine.  Thanks for putting up with a newbe in digital.  I've been an analog guy . . . and still am.

The last leg of this LKS journey seems to be to defeat an overheating problem--written about on this forum and on computeraudophile.  Any additional creative ideas anyone?


----------



## Whitigir

Did you upgrade your firmware yet ?


----------



## Lennym

I didn't know there was firmware for the LKS.  Do you mean for the Amanero board?


----------



## vick_v

I'm not sure there is an overheating problem at the moment. I know it was mentioned for other DACs and an upgraded 003 but the 004 has heatsinks on the chips unlike the OPPO Sonica. 
However, I have yet to test if leaving the top off helps with the unlocks when playing DSD256 on low DPLL setting.


----------



## mb3 (Jun 16, 2017)

Whitigir said:


> Did you upgrade your firmware yet ?


Just to let you know, My LKS004 shows 17.04 firmware - not sure how to update this.
Amanero has several drivers - I have  driver_w7_w10_159.zip installed which works well.
Note standard amanero drivers are available from, https://amanero.com/drivers.htm
New drivers for win10 shown here, https://amanero.com/drivers/
I had no luck using the new USB 2.0 Audio driver on Windows10.


----------



## Lennym (Jun 16, 2017)

vick_v said:


> I'm not sure there is an overheating problem at the moment. I know it was mentioned for other DACs and an upgraded 003 but the 004 has heatsinks on the chips unlike the OPPO Sonica.
> However, I have yet to test if leaving the top off helps with the unlocks when playing DSD256 on low DPLL setting.



Look at: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-45
Though an 003 thread, suggestion is that on an 004 heat from adjacent transistors will cook adjacent caps and lower their lives drastically.  Discussion of remedies.  Also here: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31270-lks-audio-mh-da004/?page=2


----------



## vick_v

Lennym said:


> Look at: https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-45
> Though an 003 thread, suggestion is that on an 004 heat from adjacent transistors will cook adjacent caps and lower their lives drastically.



Right, and b0bb and another member offered a solution which I also used for my DAC. Not very difficult to implement and to be honest, after a month or so of 24/7 on it feels to me (very subjective, no concrete data) that the DAC emits less heat now.


----------



## Lennym

Do you mean the heat shield tape and heat sinks?  Anything else?  

Did you consider splitting the heat shields and using them on only one transistor at a time?  How did you insulate them so as not to short them?

Thanks for any help.


----------



## vick_v

Lennym said:


> Do you mean the heat shield tape and heat sinks?  Anything else?
> 
> Did you consider splitting the heat shields and using them on only one transistor at a time?  How did you insulate them so as not to short them?
> 
> Thanks for any help.



Nope, that's all I did. b0bb suggested that thermally bridging the transistors had additional SQ benefits so I followed his example. I guess you can play around and make your own decision which one is better 
I didn't insulate the transistors because the heatsinks I got were non-conductive. b0bb used kapton tape.


----------



## Lennym (Jun 16, 2017)

Just to be clear, is this what you used? https://www.jaycar.com.au/to-220-clip-on-heatsink-6043-type/p/HH8503  Do they conduct heat but not electricity?  What are they made of?


----------



## vick_v

Lennym said:


> Just to be clear, is this what you used? https://www.jaycar.com.au/to-220-clip-on-heatsink-6043-type/p/HH8503  Do they conduct heat but not electricity?  What are they made of?



Actually I used this one since shipping from Australia didn't seem justified http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/heatsinks/1899306/?searchTerm=1899306
It says it's made out of black anodised diecast aluminium and my multimeter showed infinite resistance. I did have to expand the bottom "feet" by a mm to get them to nicely fit over both transistors.


----------



## Lennym

Thank you.  These are easily available in the US and around the globe.  But I'm a bit confused about the attachment.  Is there any chance you can post a picture?  That would be really helpful.


----------



## vick_v

Lennym said:


> Thank you.  These are easily available in the US and around the globe.  But I'm a bit confused about the attachment.  Is there any chance you can post a picture?  That would be really helpful.


Not at the moment, but you basically clip the thing on top of the two transistors and the "feet" will face away from the capacitor. The schematic below the description shows the heatsink in vertical position and the part with the hole is the clip. 
I probably should have used some of those: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/thermal-gap-pads/7073355/?origin=PSF_438341|acc to make better contact between the transistor and the heatsink, maybe next time I open it up.


----------



## vick_v

@PitBul34 have you tried playing DSD via your Ethernet IIS cable? You didn't have the DSDOE line connected so I was wondering if the 004 is able to detect the change from PCM to DSD without it?


----------



## Lennym

I'm using JRiver during its trial period.  I just seem incapable of making Foobar work, even with Google Translate.  Oh, if I could only read Chinese   If anyone has been successful with Foobar and can explain in English, it would probably help a lot of folks.  I got it so it could play, but everything at 44K.  JRiver has at least let me check the hardware.

But while, with JRiver, the LKS is recognizing and playing hires PCM files very well, I cannot make it do well with DSD.  As before I'm using files from a high res sampler site, 2l.no.

Going to Tools-Options-Audio and setting DSP Output Format to: "None" I get nice sound and the LKS reads: "PCM 176K" suggesting conversion of the DSD files to PCM. 

BUT setting the DSP Output Format to: "DSD in DOP format (Requires DSD Capable DAC)" or setting to  "1xDSD in Native Format (Requires ASIO & 1xDSD Capable DAC)" gets me a very stuttering audio output with the LKS reading: "DSD 64X IIR 47K" 

I have read of others having difficulty making DSD files work correctly.  Does anyone know what is going on here?  The Amanero board?  The Amanero driver does show up in Device Manager, though I don't see any reference to it in JRiver.

Thanks.


----------



## PitBul34

vick_v said:


> @PitBul34 have you tried playing DSD via your Ethernet IIS cable? You didn't have the DSDOE line connected so I was wondering if the 004 is able to detect the change from PCM to DSD without it?


Yes, it works.


----------



## canali (Jun 18, 2017)

subbed to this thread ''tt' dac with Roon.
i'm seeking to upgrade my current DAC |(iFi micro idsd) and setup with roon/tidal.

this DAC does look interesting, too.


----------



## vick_v

Lennym said:


> I'm using JRiver during its trial period.  I just seem incapable of making Foobar work, even with Google Translate.  Oh, if I could only read Chinese   If anyone has been successful with Foobar and can explain in English, it would probably help a lot of folks.  I got it so it could play, but everything at 44K.  JRiver has at least let me check the hardware.
> 
> But while, with JRiver, the LKS is recognizing and playing hires PCM files very well, I cannot make it do well with DSD.  As before I'm using files from a high res sampler site, 2l.no.
> 
> ...



You need to hit the DPLL button until it stops skipping. If you go up to 15 and it still skips then there is something else going on, I have to go about up to 8 to play DSD256 without issues.


----------



## Lennym

vick_v said:


> You need to hit the DPLL button until it stops skipping. If you go up to 15 and it still skips then there is something else going on, I have to go about up to 8 to play DSD256 without issues.



Thank you.  I tried this using DSD 128 files before, and now again and with every possible DSD setting and it didn't stop stuttering.  But then, recalling that the LKS screen was reading "DSD 64X IIR 47K" I loaded in some DSD 64 files and they played perfectly in native format at DPLL 1, and at either of the two JRiver settings for DSD..    

So it wasn't recognizing the files as DSD 128, hence the hiccups all the way to DPLL 15.  I'm still hoping it's a setting that I haven't found yet, to wit, that it's me and not the LKS..


----------



## vick_v

Lennym said:


> Thank you.  I tried this using DSD 128 files before, and now again and with every possible DSD setting and it didn't stop stuttering.  But then, recalling that the LKS screen was reading "DSD 64X IIR 47K" I loaded in some DSD 64 files and they played perfectly in native format at DPLL 1, and at either of the two JRiver settings for DSD..
> 
> So it wasn't recognizing the files as DSD 128, hence the hiccups all the way to DPLL 15.  I'm still hoping it's a setting that I haven't found yet, to wit, that it's me and not the LKS..



Are you sure you installed the ASIO driver (http://www.mu-sound.com/files/USB_drivers.zip) correctly (http://www.mu-sound.com/files/LKS_Audio DAC_USB_DSD_driver_setup_note.pdf) The trick is to stop the automated driver install and run the msi installer instead. You should see a Amanero Technologies USB Driver 1.0.57 device in device manager.
If so, then make sure your computer is not running out of CPU when playing those DSD256 files. I haven't used JRiver and I can't help you with it's settings but if it's doing any kind of audio manipulation then at DSD256 your computer could simply not be up to the task.
Also, make sure you're not in power save mode or low on battery which could affect the USB speed.
For DSD 256 you'll need to use DSD native and not DOP, also make sure you enable DSD bitstreaming using this: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD


----------



## Lennym (Jun 25, 2017)

Just to clarify its use with JRiver (With the friendly help of Jinbo* at mu-sound):

Audio Device is set at "Combo384 ASIO 1.03 (ASIO)",
DSP & Output Format should be left at "None".  [That corrects one mistake I was making.]
Bitstreaming should be set to "Yes (DSD)".

Jinbo suggests that DPLL should be set at BW08 or above.  I found that necessary with some downloaded files.  But My first ripped SACD* plays easily at BW04, and probably lower.

In any event, the sound comes through as DSD, fine and clear.

This is the DA004 with upgraded USB board.

*They take a few days to respond by email.  Seem a bit terse, but friendly.  Good English skills.  I am pleased with the little support I needed.
**On an Oppo 105, it's so easy.


----------



## vick_v

Lennym said:


> Just to clarify its use with JRiver (With the friendly help of Jinbo* at mu-sound):
> 
> Audio Device is set at "Combo384 ASIO 1.03 (ASIO)",
> DSP & Output Format should be left at "None".  [That corrects one mistake I was making.]
> ...



If I understand correctly SACDs are DSD64 which should play on lower DPLL setting. Or did you somehow up convert to DSD256?


----------



## Lennym

No I leave the SACD .dsf file at DSD64.  At DPLL 1 I thought I heard some very minor skipping, no static, no spaces, so I pushed it up a couple of notches.  On subsequent SACDs, it seems I had to go a little higher.  Haven't really figured it out yet as I'm doing a lot of copying.


----------



## MattSPL

Very nice looking Dac 

Has anyone compared the lks to a Mytek Brooklyn, w4s, Hugo tt or any benchmarks?

I currently have a Matrix Quattro(with a few basic mods) I'm thinking of upgrading with something upto $2000 to drive active monitors, so I need the pre amp/volume function.

Thanks


----------



## Lennym

Just a minor question for those with the DAC.  I'm using the USB A to USB B cable that came packaged with the DAC.  All information packaged with it is completely in Chinese, which I cannot read.  Any hint of its quality, or how it is made?  Are you using it?  Comparisons to other cable you are using?  Thanks.


----------



## fjc36 (Jul 4, 2017)

Any solution for the heat around 9038 pro DAC chips and the I/Vs (100mA)? How long the board may last?


----------



## abrahavt (Jul 4, 2017)

fjc36 said:


> Any solution for the heat around 9038 pro DAC chips and the I/Vs (100mA)? How long the board may last?



If you are worried about overheating just place one of these USB fans horizontally over the vent on top and keep it running 24X7. They are pretty quiet.


----------



## Lennym

I have written to the factory about the heat generation.  Their initial response was :

"About your question of heat.
It's not a problem. We have tested on previous DACs.
Don't worry about the component life. We make many DACs since the year of 2008. No examples of component failures due to the heat.
Best regards.
Jinbo"

I am not satisfied with this so I wrote again using specific facts about the heat from https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-45 and what follows.  I have not heard back yet.

I'd like to urge others to write to the factory with your concern.  You can write to: bleerock@126.com


----------



## fjc36

The factory explanation is not  entirely valid. The previous DAC cases consume  10-30mA, but the 9038pro  consumes 100mA. So, it is not exactly the same situation, they should know it. The differences in heat among ES 9018, 9028 pro, and 9038pro are quite obvious as indicted by B0BB. If the SQ of ESS9028pro and ESS9038pro are close, I like to try LKS MH DA003 MK2, since it is using twin ES9028pro at less heat, or turn to Gustard x20pro. Question is there any one does serious compare SQ between LKS DA003 MK2 and DA004? How close? I could give up a little for peace of mind. Or patiently wait till nothing bad happens. Only time would tell.


----------



## Lennym

"Question is there any one does serious compare SQ between LKS DA003 MK2 and DA004?"

Yes, on head-fi.  Each stock, no comparison.  Do a search.


----------



## Whitigir

There were comparisons in 003 thread, basically the 004 sounds as good as a heavily modified 003, and one of the modifications was using the better oscillations clocks, which the 004 is still using the same clocks as 003.  There is definitely room to improve this....though, I am not into doing it yet


----------



## fjc36 (Jul 6, 2017)

Yes, in the head -Fi MH-DA003 thread, I read lots of pages of 003 modified, thanks to BoBB. That is an early version, the late version of Mk2 uses two ES 9028pro, that MK2 version is what I am interested of, may sacrifices ajust a bit of SQ to earn some thermal stability. Check through google, you can find other 9038pro  DVD has issues for the heat, and by produce a huge heat sink, avoids or reduces sound defect that rises.


----------



## abrahavt

I finally pulled the trigger on one with enhanced USB. Out of the box it sounds great. First time I am hearing music without digital harshness since I ripped all my music onto a computer and started playing via USB a couple of years back. My system consists of music stored on a Synology NAS, played using Roon installed on an Intel NUC (Roon Optimized Computer Kit) via ethernet to a sotm sms-200ultra network player using USB. I suspect that the fancy clocking in the sms-200ultra network player is being wasted. Oh well atleast it helped in my previous system. The case didn't seem hot to the touch after playing for a while but I have laid a quiet computer case fan over the top vent to cool it down as a precaution. I would describe the sound as highly resolved with much detail without being harsh or tube syrupy. My wife is very sensitive to digital harshness and I could never crank my previous system as it would hurt her ears. So far no complaints from her with the music cranked way up. This is the first time that I have able to listen to music from my computer network via USB for long stretches without tiring. Way to go LKS.


----------



## fjc36 (Jul 8, 2017)

Dear  abrahavt, have you tried LKS MD-003 mk2? I guess you are saying about the 004, since a FAN IS USED.
I HAVE COPE DOWN A SHORT PIECE from HONG KONG  forum, users  complain about the heat, it cause unlock besides reducing SQ.
"但更明確的一點是個人聽感~~9038的溫度高到大約46度以上的話音質真的要折損不少,相對之下40度的表現是全面勝出毋容置疑,"
My translation is:
{More specifically , the personal feeling is SQ is going down a lot when temperature of 9038 goes above 46 degC. On the contrary, below 40 degC , the performance is  overall winning.}


I guess put a slow moving noiseless fan is a brilliant idea, but I also wish LKS has a internal solution on this, make it measured below 40-43 deg C.


回復


----------



## abrahavt (Jul 8, 2017)

I have not tried the MD-003 mk2. I wanted the ES9038 chipset for my new DAC. I did not want to go down the modding rabbit hole. Gave that up a few years back. I felt that most affordable ES9028 chip DACs needed modding to sound their best. I was trying to decide between this and a Denafrips DAC and decided to give this a try. I have not experienced any issues with heat like drop outs or loosing of the lock. I have only had it for a short while. I will let you know if that changes. I also live in a cooler climate and use the AC in the summer so I guess that helps. I know having the fan bothers some people. If it does, turn it off while the music is playing and have it running the rest of the time. We will see how it all works out. So far i am happy with the purchase. You have to spend multiple times the amount of money that this costs or do lots of mods to get hires (DSD) digital grunge free music.


----------



## Whitigir

I totally agree about this 004 performances and the digital harshness you mentioned about.  The 004 is very clean


----------



## jjk43

Greetings,
Has anyone employed the 004 using the I2S input and if so how do you like it?
I have a PinkFaun streamer with an I2S mch bridge card.  Playing through Gustard X20 Pro dacs now and wondering about moving to the LKS 004 for "the fronts" dac.
Thanks very much.


----------



## abrahavt

There is no standard for the I2S connection so whether it will work is anybody's guess.


----------



## jjk43

abrahavt said:


> There is no standard for the I2S connection so whether it will work is anybody's guess.


abra,
Thanks.
Maybe  I should have been more specific.  Has anyone listened to the LKS over I2S?
I have the pin connection.  I know it will work.  I want to know how it sounds.
Regards.


----------



## mb3

abrahavt said:


> If you are worried about overheating just place one of these USB fans horizontally over the vent on top and keep it running 24X7. They are pretty quiet.


My experience was that adding transistor heat sinks made a noticeable reduction in the operating temperature, which is probably a good thing. There will be an optimal operating temperature for the components and in particular the ess dac chips.

I was thinking that the next step on from using heat sinks or fans for managing the temperature issue might be to find out the optimal temp range for the 9038pro chip from ess - I did contact an ess company rep but was advised along the lines of, this info is not available to the general public, speak with lks.. If the optimal temp was known then something like liquid cooling could be used. I have an i7 desktop with this - it is practically silent and works well.


----------



## colour97 (Jul 11, 2017)

after using this usb fan, the temp is cooling down. hand feel of metal body is cool.

totally fix the heat issue.

i can really start to burn-in the dac.


----------



## Whitigir

Hm..how come I can't use OTG to play USB digital out into the 004 ? From a phone or a DAP.  I am good with phone that uses USB C, and my Walkman though, not for the other droids


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

What App are you using from your smartphone? Try HibyMusic (free) assuming it's Android. On my DAC (LH Labs Infinity) I am using USB Audio Player Pro. Neutron MP is good also.


----------



## Whitigir

I had been trying to use it with Opus 3 and it stock app.  But now I will just move on to modifying the 004 somewhat.  First off is to isolating the USB chassis away from the main chassis.


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

Need an app that can directly communicate your DAC through OTG. Try the said apps from google play.


----------



## Whitigir

Woa! I followed Bobb tips to simply isolate the USB metal shell away from the main chassis as Bobb found that it is Galvanically isolated, but the shell is touching the main chassis ground.

I just had electrical tape from Homedepot, took off the back plate and wrap the female USB metal body with it to isolate it away from the main chassis, and the sound performances vastly improved.

I am using Pure Silver USB cables with my Stax 009 and the much quieter background with better treble details are obviously observable.  Definitely the most simple "modification" that net in "huge result"


----------



## Rickmusicman

I am looking at the LKS MH-DA004 and have some questions for owners. I am new to Digital, so would like to know if this is a user friendly DAC, good for a beginner and if it can do the following:

1)      Use CD player, Onkyo  C7030 as a transport only device and connect it to a DAC

2)      Stream Spotify or Tidal

3)      Itunes

4)      Connect Iphone to play music bluetooth or wifi

Thanks


----------



## littlexx26

i think this dac can do 1) only


----------



## alphanumerix1

Anyone reviewed this yet.


----------



## Whitigir

Couple of us did give some impressions


----------



## MattSPL

Has anyone compared the lks 004 to the hugo2? 

Thanks


----------



## XVampireX (Aug 1, 2017)

From what I've heard, and that's from a pretty solid source, this DAC is supposed to be in the high-end audio forums... I'm sort of pulling the trigger the next few days

Edit: Seems like something is going on regarding this DAC, everyone was there at first, then everyone went elsewhere, what goes?


----------



## MattSPL

XVampireX said:


> From what I've heard, and that's from a pretty solid source, this DAC is supposed to be in the high-end audio forums... I'm sort of pulling the trigger the next few days
> 
> Edit: Seems like something is going on regarding this DAC, everyone was there at first, then everyone went elsewhere, what goes?


Yeah not much more info on this Dac in a while. Tempted too.


----------



## XVampireX (Sep 17, 2021)

Whitigir said:


> Couple of us did give some impressions



What's the chance of you bringing some more people to this discussion?
Just so you know, I've read on the russian forum (When researching about this DAC) people talk about you that you are very indecisive as in, can't decide what is a good setup and keep changing stuff, even what is considered good now like SR-009/Utopia you may very well switch soon for a better alternative.
I'm not saying this for nothing, I'm wondering what you think how long will LKS MH-DA004 will last in your setup? Seems like for the price point, you're putting it in with headphones and equipment of much higher price range...


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 1, 2017)

XVampireX said:


> What's the chance of you bringing some more people to this discussion?
> Just so you know, I've read on the Russian forum (When researching about this DAC) people talk about you that you are very indecisive as in, can't decide what is a good setup and keep changing stuff, even what is considered good now like SR-009/Utopia you may very well switch soon for a better alternative.
> I'm not saying this for nothing, I'm wondering what you think how long will LKS MH-DA004 will last in your setup? Seems like for the price point, you're putting it in with headphones and equipment of much higher price range...


Lol, it is not that I am indecisive, but I only try to be as simplistic as possible.  Stax 009 is by far the best I can have, but it gotta be stationary only which is very limited uses.  The alternative for me is Utopia that is maxed out that I can stationary with, or be On the go with.  But the question is....why would I want to stay stationary with Utopia while having the Stax.

Lately, the pricing of these gears are out of the mind blowing, so I am tired of desktop systems and want to be portable only....cables that cost 3-4k....headphones that cost 6-8k.....when will it ever stop though

Regarding 004.  It is a very good DAC, and is hard to beat at the price range.  Technically speaking, it is priced very well worth it


----------



## XVampireX

But you still haven't explained about how long are you going to keep your LKS 004 for?


----------



## Whitigir

XVampireX said:


> But you still haven't explained about how long are you going to keep your LKS 004 for?


When I downgrade the Stax system, and not having any stationary setup as desktop systems go


----------



## XVampireX

We'll see then, got an Auralic Vega, gonna be jumping ship, you know, that Vega cost me $3500 back in the day, so if it's gonna be better, it's gonna be awesome for that price range... But with audio-gd making the R2R 7 and Holo Spring DAC at level 3 and Yggdrasil, I'm wondering if it can really manage to beat these, based on my sources, it definitely can.


----------



## Whitigir

XVampireX said:


> We'll see then, got an Auralic Vega, gonna be jumping ship, you know, that Vega cost me $3500 back in the day, so if it's gonna be better, it's gonna be awesome for that price range... But with audio-gd making the R2R 7 and Holo Spring DAC at level 3 and Yggdrasil, I'm wondering if it can really manage to beat these, based on my sources, it definitely can.



As far as I can tell, technical wise, the 004 is hard to beat for it price.  Running 2xMono with regulated power supplies and class A discrete output with ES9038Pro that can reach upto 140Db dynamic range is pretty dope to think about


----------



## XVampireX

Anyway, pulled the trigger today, should be about a week hopefully... will compare first with Auralic Vega


----------



## Whitigir

XVampireX said:


> Anyway, pulled the trigger today, should be about a week hopefully... will compare first with Auralic Vega


The XLR Balanced out is powerful.  It is 5Vrms, and I think it may be sufficient enough to drive headphones (sensitive one), as it has digital volume control by itself as well.  What I need is the motivations to buy some stuff to make the cables and test it out LoL.

Congratulations by the way


----------



## XVampireX

Whitigir said:


> The XLR Balanced out is powerful.  It is 5Vrms, and I think it may be sufficient enough to drive headphones (sensitive one), as it has digital volume control by itself as well.  What I need is the motivations to buy some stuff to make the cables and test it out LoL.
> 
> Congratulations by the way



Well, my Audio-gd Master 9 is somewhat better then I guess


----------



## brickears

XVampireX said:


> Anyway, pulled the trigger today, should be about a week hopefully... will compare first with Auralic Vega



Should leave the Vega for dead - that is a 2013 design after all - and I used to own a Vega for 2.5yrs too.  My LKS should be here by Monday.


----------



## XVampireX

The thing is, again, my sources tell me that this LKS DAC should be able to overpower Yggdrasil, Holo Spring DAC, just fine...


----------



## alphanumerix1

XVampireX said:


> The thing is, again, my sources tell me that this LKS DAC should be able to overpower Yggdrasil, Holo Spring DAC, just fine...


I await your impressions vs holo dac & yggy.


----------



## Lennym

Since the Amanero board re-clocks everything, is the quality of the USB cable important?  I'm using the cable packed with the DAC to run from computer to DAC.  Has anyone tried a cable that they would recommend?


----------



## Whitigir

Lennym said:


> Since the Amanero board re-clocks everything, is the quality of the USB cable important?  I'm using the cable packed with the DAC to run from computer to DAC.  Has anyone tried a cable that they would recommend?



Yes, cables still matter.  Imagines having 100% dirty water into a filter that can filter 20% Purity.  Your end result will be 80% dirty water....Now, imagine having only 20% dirty water into the same filter, the end result will be 0% dirty water.

Any affordable USB cables will do just fine, I found Audio Quest to be great and affordable


----------



## XVampireX

alphanumerix1 said:


> I await your impressions vs holo dac & yggy.



I don't have either the Holo DAC or the Yggdrasil, but people nowadays are all over these DACs since they are pretty much mainstream and have a high cost so because of that, how can LKS compete, however, that's the catch my sources (As in, people who have heard all aforementioned DACs) claim that LKS is still much better, even though there were people who have liked Yggdrasil better or Holo better, but in general statistics, more people have liked LKS MH-DA004 better, including said sources, and yes they are from a Head-Fi related store)


----------



## alphanumerix1

XVampireX said:


> I don't have either the Holo DAC or the Yggdrasil, but people nowadays are all over these DACs since they are pretty much mainstream and have a high cost so because of that, how can LKS compete, however, that's the catch my sources (As in, people who have heard all aforementioned DACs) claim that LKS is still much better, even though there were people who have liked Yggdrasil better or Holo better, but in general statistics, more people have liked LKS MH-DA004 better, including said sources, and yes they are from a Head-Fi related store)



I await your impressions in general of this unit.


----------



## Lennym

Whitigir said:


> Yes, cables still matter.  Imagines having 100% dirty water into a filter that can filter 20% Purity.  Your end result will be 80% dirty water....Now, imagine having only 20% dirty water into the same filter, the end result will be 0% dirty water.
> 
> Any affordable USB cables will do just fine, I found Audio Quest to be great and affordable



Thanks for the advice.  Just ordered some silver wire and terminations to make up a wire carrying just signal and ground without 5V power.  Will see what a difference it might make.


----------



## brickears

Lennym said:


> Thanks for the advice.  Just ordered some silver wire and terminations to make up a wire carrying just signal and ground without 5V power.  Will see what a difference it might make.



You'd be surprised - I was.   On the JCAT Femto USB card you can disable 5v per port, small improvement from that alone.


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 7, 2017)

So I petitioned for a replacement of my Amenero card last week, and it was handled pretty quickly.  The card was Express shipping into USA.  The problems started out that I was unable to use low bandwidth at 001 when cold started, the sound was continuously being re-adjusted by the unit so stalling a few times here and there together with sound performances degradations.  Beside that, the Native DSD feed Source would have different noises at different filters and I had to continuously changing the filters on DSD mode in order to have it working.

Today my replacement Amenero card came in the main and to my surprises, they have different build.  I think the DIY community has been a great help

1/ Isolated USB port
2/ Op-Amp regulations
3/ beefier voltage regulations on the circuit board

Here is a few shots




Time to audition the new board and see if it had changed anything


----------



## mb3

Looks new and improved. Hopefully it works better. I hope you don't mind me asking but sent it to you?


----------



## Whitigir

Yes, they shipped it back to me by DHL express


----------



## XVampireX

Couple of questions, first of all @Whitiger - How is Stax SR-009 handling the difference of the DAC with what you had previously? I hear MH-DA004 is a brute force in terms of Bass, is that true for SR-009 too through it (Being a headphone that is known to be weak in bass, though I don't know how true that is)

Second question - I'm sort of new to all this i2s thing, I see that people mostly prefer it, how do I use it with my PC? Is it only through a converter?

While waiting for the new DAC, my Vega starting to have a renewed soul


----------



## Whitigir

The bass in the 004 is just very refined with great dynamic forces but the sub bass is awesome here too.  The only thing I am surprised about is just how smooth and detailed the 004 is, given the ES9038Pro 2x.  It is another case of extremely well designed DAC.

The 009 is not weak in bass with Kevin Gilmore amp, and I do have KG GG.  The bass is perfect

I2S is only with converter, yes.  People would prefer i2S if the USB is not properly implemented


----------



## XVampireX

That's what they said about the LCD-2/3 yet I can honestly say that the bass slam in my HD800S is much better and better felt, while they say the bass on SR-009 is worse. My daily driver currently is HD800S, for me it's currently the better sound (albeit different) and better build quality (I actually have my LCD-3 not working currently... and tired of sending it back to Audeze, cable was torn from connector and I was stupid and thought the problem was elsewhere until I realized that the problem was the cable)
How would you compare this DAC with your previous one? pairing SR-009 headphones which are about 4k-5k USD with an amp that is about the same but with a DAC that is quite a bit less... how does that work out for you?


----------



## brickears

Received my 004 today.  Looks like LKS has made some positive changes.  The USB port now has a black tape around it to help with isolation.  The output transistors are on the other side of the PCB, so the heat issue is possibly no longer though dont have an IR meter to hand to confirm.  Will be comparing against a T+A DAC 8 DSD once it's broken in.


----------



## XVampireX

Would actually love a comparison with that DAC, I've heard it's really amazing, it also looks advanced and pretty thought through... Audiostream gives it a great review


----------



## MattSPL

brickears said:


> Received my 004 today.  Looks like LKS has made some positive changes.  The USB port now has a black tape around it to help with isolation.  The output transistors are on the other side of the PCB, so the heat issue is possibly no longer though dont have an IR meter to hand to confirm.  Will be comparing against a T+A DAC 8 DSD once it's broken in.


 Sounds good, where did you order from and do you have any pictures of the new improvements?
Thanks


----------



## brickears

MattSPL said:


> Sounds good, where did you order from and do you have any pictures of the new improvements?
> Thanks



Directly from LKS, was about to switch to XMOS u208 till realised Singxer still don't have DSD 512 firmwares for them, and Amanero have just released a beta firmware for Native DSD 512 in Linux which appears to be working.  Will flash it once broken in.

Quick crude pic attached showing output transistors placed on opposite side.


----------



## brickears

XVampireX said:


> Would actually love a comparison with that DAC, I've heard it's really amazing, it also looks advanced and pretty thought through... Audiostream gives it a great review



The T+A is pretty special.  Infact the guy I know who owns both the T+A and the LKS gives the stock LKS 004 the nudge in resolution and tonality, but still considers the T+A the musical dynamic swing champ.  The T+A recently saw off a Chord DAVE in the same setup, with quite some ease. 

Those DACs are attached to a pair of Hypex NC1200s, Kef Blades, room treated a bit (needs rework as moved lately), JCAT Femto USB card with external DC power and HQPlayer upsampling all to DSD 512.


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 8, 2017)

Damn ! They did revision one after another so freaking fast....and what are those 2 caps at the DAC....mine did not have those


----------



## XVampireX

@brickears - Sounds promising, Chord DAVE is something I would have liked but it's a bit too expensive and I don't know just how much of an improvement it is over the other TOTL DACs like even Schiit Yggdrasil or Holo or now LKS MH-DA004...
Are you using HQPlayer on linux for DSD? I don't quite like the interface of it, it's not too user oriented, too techy for me. Do you know any other good way to listen to DSD on Linux? Something like Foobar2k or JRiver (I know that the latter exists on Linux, don't know if it has DSD support...) Also when you play high-res does it lock on the sample rate on the DAC?


----------



## Whitigir

Dave doesn't have regulated power rails, the 004 does


----------



## XVampireX

Whitigir said:


> Dave doesn't have regulated power rails, the 004 does



And why does that matter exactly?


----------



## MattSPL

I really want one of these Dac's, but the shelf my equipment is in is only 300mm deep, so I don't think it will fit.


brickears said:


> Directly from LKS, was about to switch to XMOS u208 till realised Singxer still don't have DSD 512 firmwares for them, and Amanero have just released a beta firmware for Native DSD 512 in Linux which appears to be working.  Will flash it once broken in.
> 
> Quick crude pic attached showing output transistors placed on opposite side.


----------



## brickears

MattSPL said:


> I really want one of these Dac's, but the shelf my equipment is in is only 300mm deep, so I don't think it will fit.



From what I'm hearing so far out of the box, I'd work on making space


----------



## MattSPL

brickears said:


> From what I'm hearing so far out of the box, I'd work on making space



I had a feeling that might be the answer


----------



## MattSPL

@brickears could you post a link where you ordered from please? The temptation is getting stronger


----------



## brickears

MattSPL said:


> @brickears could you post a link where you ordered from please? The temptation is getting stronger



I emailed Jinbo directly at LKS (as was going to switch the Amanero for XMOS u208 till 512 DSD issue), but you can ofcourse source it from here https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/l-k-s...bu-for-dop-usb-i2s-optical-audio-decoder.html who've supplied others on this forum to great effect.


----------



## MattSPL

brickears said:


> I emailed Jinbo directly at LKS (as was going to switch the Amanero for XMOS u208 till 512 DSD issue), but you can ofcourse source it from here https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/l-k-s...bu-for-dop-usb-i2s-optical-audio-decoder.html who've supplied others on this forum to great effect.


Thanks, just want to make sure I get the updated Dac if I decide to order.


----------



## XVampireX

Actually interested to know how would I know if I am getting the updated version, asked the dealer but will get an answer soon enough, hopefully that's true.


----------



## mb3

Whitigir said:


> So I petitioned for a replacement of my Amenero card last week, and it was handled pretty quickly.  The card was Express shipping into USA.  The problems started out that I was unable to use low bandwidth at 001 when cold started, the sound was continuously being re-adjusted by the unit so stalling a few times here and there together with sound performances degradations.  Beside that, the Native DSD feed Source would have different noises at different filters and I had to continuously changing the filters on DSD mode in order to have it working.
> 
> Today my replacement Amenero card came in the main and to my surprises, they have different build.  I think the DIY community has been a great help
> 
> ...


The pics look like they show the linear power supply - did you get an new power supply and card and who sent it to you?


----------



## Whitigir

mb3 said:


> The pics look like they show the linear power supply - did you get an new power supply and card and who sent it to you?



I only asked for USB Module replacement as mine had some problems, and I asked it from the place I purchased from, Shenzhen Audio.  They were extremely quick, the USB card is the same, only the power card is different


----------



## brickears (Aug 13, 2017)

So I've only had my 004 since Tuesday and has been breaking in since.  Mine is the revised version, so no need to worry about heatsinking transistors or galvanic isolation broken on the USB port; already fixed.

In PCM mode, there's no comparison, its walking past the T+A, admittedly not the T+A's best mode.  DSD 512 mode, its also edging forward.  The only area I can 'fault' is possibly musical dynamic swings from extremes to extremes, though as the days pass the LKS 004 is catching up. The T+A 8 DSD quite frankly swings so explosively that it can make other DACs sound flat. 

@b0bb any suggestions as to what you'd tweak in order to increase dynamic 'swing' ?

Also @b0bb there is reference to a new firmware for the Amanero (now in rc) which supposedly steps up musical performance at higher rates.  I'll give this a try once its burned in.  Link : https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd/issues/12 

Will get some proper internal pics soon so you guys can help advise on enhancements.

The LKS 004 is definitely staying.  Unbelievable value for money.  The T+A DAC 8 DSD retails at $4k and is outperforming it in many areas, with under a week's burn in and zero modifications.


----------



## XVampireX

brickears said:


> So I've only had my 004 since Tuesday and has been breaking in since.  Mine is the revised version, so no need to worry about heatsinking transistors or galvanic isolation broken on the USB port; already fixed.
> 
> In PCM mode, there's no comparison, its walking past the T+A, admittedly not the T+A's best mode.  DSD 512 mode, its also edging forward.  The only area I can 'fault' is possibly musical dynamic swings from extremes to extremes, though as the days pass the LKS 004 is catching up. The T+A 8 DSD quite frankly swings so explosively that it can make other DACs sound flat.
> 
> ...



Cheers, still waiting for mine sadly... maybe will have it by the end of the week...

This T+A DAC 8 DSD is something I was also interested in more than the other ones, it's good to hear that this (MH-DA004) might be even better 
Regarding Bass, as an owner of Auralic Vega, I'd say that Sabre's are actually decent in terms of reproducing bass, or what do you mean by dynamic swing?


----------



## brickears

XVampireX said:


> Cheers, still waiting for mine sadly... maybe will have it by the end of the week...
> 
> This T+A DAC 8 DSD is something I was also interested in more than the other ones, it's good to hear that this (MH-DA004) might be even better
> Regarding Bass, as an owner of Auralic Vega, I'd say that Sabre's are actually decent in terms of reproducing bass, or what do you mean by dynamic swing?



Leading edge transient impact; i.e. the high-energy pluck of a electric guitar, deeply charged bass entry etc.  From reading the thread on the 003 + Pulsar comments B0bb made, there might be some hope there.  It's hard to ignore that shortcoming once you've heard the T+A in action.  I've had the Auralic Vega in this same system (bar nc400s set in low gain mode, instead of nc1200s), it actually became a bit 'cringey' due to its harshness / hashing especially when things got dynamic.  The other key difference with the Vega was tonality - it just wasn't correct on natural string instruments.  I should add most these flaws became apparent when the blades arrived.  Prior to that, they were 'masked' somewhat, certainly not as obvious.


----------



## Robert McAdam (Aug 13, 2017)

"Dynamic swing" is the difference between the quietest and loudest pieces of music and the speed with which this is achieved. Most noticeable on action movies where someone can be whispering to an instant almighty explosion. This effect can be frightening/breath taking it happens so quickly on a good system or in a live concert.
There are some very good examples in Classical music especially.


----------



## brickears

Robert McAdam said:


> "Dynamic swing" is the difference between the quietest and loudest pieces of music and the speed with which this is achieved. Most noticeable on action movies where someone can be whispering to an instant almighty explosion. This effect can be frightening/breath taking it happens so quickly on a good system or in a live concert.
> There are some very good examples in Classical music especially.



Precisely that - the T+A is absoultely breath taking in this regard.  I think the LKS is catching up as the days go by, but as a friend mentioned the T+A is probably still the king here.


----------



## Robert McAdam

I would say your LKS player is barely run in. I have a new Oppo 205 for 6 weeks and its still getting better sound wise. It runs the same Sabre 9038 chip. These new chips are a big step up in sound. I'm considering the LKS myself.


----------



## brickears

Robert McAdam said:


> I would say your LKS player is barely run in. I have a new Oppo 205 for 6 weeks and its still getting better sound wise. It runs the same Sabre 9038 chip. These new chips are a big step up in sound. I'm considering the LKS myself.



Agreed though it is literally running music through it 24x7.  I'm suprised it sounds so good, so early on...


----------



## Robert McAdam (Aug 13, 2017)

I've replaced my Benchmark Dac2(9018 chip) with the Oppo 205(9038 chip) it's that good. Both of these only run 1 chip, the LKS runs two and can also run as a preamp/DAC.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 14, 2017)

brickears said:


> @b0bb any suggestions as to what you'd tweak in order to increase dynamic 'swing' ?



Get rid of the Nichicon caps bypassing the supplies to the I/V converter and replace it with something more suited to the task like the Panasonic FM.

The constrained dynamics is part of the sonic signature of the Nichicon caps LKS used, they are either Fine Gold or Muse.
Panasonic FM bypasses the heat degradation concerns on the caps, it is designed to operate at high temps unlike the Nichicons which only last 1000 hours at 85ºC

LKS used the Panasonic FMs for the I/V bypass caps in the LKS003, they decided to get creative here and shot themselves in the foot.


----------



## Lennym

b0bb said:


> Get rid of the Nichicon caps bypassing the supplies to the I/V converter and replace it with something more suited to the task like the Panasonic FM.



@b0bb do you mean the 8 22uF caps we have been trying to protect from the heat of the nearby transistors?


----------



## b0bb

Lennym said:


> @b0bb do you mean the 8 22uF caps we have been trying to protect from the heat of the nearby transistors?



Yes.
The Nichicons  (FG or Muse) trade transient performance for a sweeter midrange, the Panasonic FMs do not add or subtract from the material. They would sound a little colder than the Nichicons but livelier, Nichicons sound quite flat in comparison.


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 15, 2017)

b0bb said:


> Yes.
> The Nichicons  (FG or Muse) trade transient performance for a sweeter midrange, the Panasonic FMs do not add or subtract from the material. They would sound a little colder than the Nichicons but livelier, Nichicons sound quite flat in comparison.


Which specific one do u recommend 22uf 50v? And I still have low bandwidth stalling problems


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Which specific one do u recommend ? And I still have low bandwidth stalling problems



I would start with something like a 47uF in a 8mm can, 10mm if there is enough space, the 10mm cans have a 7000hr lifetime @105ºC.

This will not fix the low BW stalling issue, whenever I2S passes thru an isolator  there is increased jitter, that is what the reclocker in the 9038 is supposed to handle and the BW setting is related to the jitter range of the I2S signal. I would not lose any sleep over it.


----------



## brickears

@b0bb i think you might have mentioned that LKS may have done this to tame some of the harshness from the 575-50 in place, though that applied more so to the 003 design.  

Is it worth investing in an upgraded crystal soon after given the possibility of this?  

I suspect the reclocker on the 9038 is also sensitive to crystal quality.  I was thinking of starting with the crystek cchd-950x though I'm happy to take suggestions here.  Will consider the Pulsar once I've tried a cheaper alternative to understand impact at first.


----------



## XVampireX

OMG.....


----------



## Whitigir

XVampireX said:


> OMG.....


What happened? Something blew ?


----------



## XVampireX (Aug 15, 2017)

Whitigir said:


> What happened? Something blew ?



My Brains XD


----------



## Whitigir

XVampireX said:


> My Brains XD


Roflmao, so, did you compare to your previous one ?


----------



## XVampireX

Whitigir said:


> Roflmao, so, did you compare to your previous one ?



You think there's a need to compare?


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 15, 2017)

XVampireX said:


> You think there's a need to compare?



I wouldn't think so, LOL! But I have been trying to stop convincing others on about what is good and what is not anymore....I am kinda getting tired of it.  As I already stated about this 004 on my first impression much earlier, this 004 if was not make in china and by LSK, you would be thinking a $6,000 pricing for it would also be reasonable.  I say this because of how it was designed technically speaking and performances to prove.


----------



## XVampireX (Aug 15, 2017)

TBH, my ideal DAC would HAVE been Chord Dave, good bye to this dream 

Edit: So What's up, why is this DAC not in High-End Audio section yet?


----------



## Whitigir

XVampireX said:


> TBH, my ideal DAC would HAVE been Chord Dave, good bye to this dream
> 
> Edit: So What's up, why is this DAC not in High-End Audio section yet?



The price and the brand.  You don't see the reason why manufacturers would want to inflate their pricing to get into Summit-fi section ? We are blessed to have the LsK at this price for sure


----------



## XVampireX

Yup, that's what I'm saying, lets stay non mainstream, let them be the fools


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 15, 2017)

Remember you asked me why regulated power supply vs Dave switching power supply ? Because regulated is more linear and stabilized with lower noises and is a superior technologies LOL


----------



## brickears

XVampireX said:


> TBH, my ideal DAC would HAVE been Chord Dave, good bye to this dream
> 
> Edit: So What's up, why is this DAC not in High-End Audio section yet?



T+A Dac 8 Dsd with hqplayer, quality USB feed running at dsd 512 rates saw off a Chord DAVE in my system with ease.  We thought the DAVE was faulty at times.  The LKS 004 is at least on par if edging forwards in some respects on the T+A.   

You ain't missing much!


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 15, 2017)

brickears said:


> T+A Dac 8 Dsd with hqplayer, quality USB feed running at dsd 512 rates saw off a Chord DAVE in my system with ease.  We thought the DAVE was faulty at times.  The LKS 004 is at least on par if edging forwards in some respects on the T+A.
> 
> You ain't missing much!


Completely agree, but we can't really debate it though, given the reputation of the Dave and the build.  People maybe buying for luxurious feeling, I buy stuff because it sounds good....hell, I even make it like homeless style just because it sounds good, doesn't have to look good.  For example this is my USB cables with silver-gold wires by 8 cores and Separated shielding, and it look funky, but is the best built for audio quality .  Back on topic, I do like the midrange of these nichicon, will the 7F Panasonic be changing too much in the sound signature of the 004 ?


----------



## brickears

I should probably state quality USB feed as using a dedicated USB card, I'm using the JCAT Femto card with external dc power.  You'd be surprised how noisy a standard USB output is.


----------



## Whitigir

brickears said:


> I should probably state quality USB feed as using a dedicated USB card, I'm using the JCAT Femto card with external dc power.  You'd be surprised how noisy a standard USB output is.



I use Sony Cradle and Walkman as a source.  What is this JCAT Femto


----------



## XVampireX

So far, the bass rocks, the mids especially the voice parts are amazingly clear, the highs are a little on the harsh side hope it's gonna calm down a little in a little more burn-in.
Soundstage, excellent, in comparison with the Auralic Vega, the Vega was a little too much in my face, 004 takes it further from me quite a bit, both in depth, width, height but still keeps every element in their the respective space based on the recording quality.
It's much easier to listen to rock/metal music with the 004 and I would even say that this is the DAC for metalhead audiophiles.
Details and Microdetails are present in a matter I'm not accustomed to, you can hear how the instrument is being played and even with what tools pretty much, of course whatever is happening in the background like in live music you can hear the the different coughs and what not quite clearly.
I really don't know what to say about its bad sides, can't find many, currently it's the harsh highs that are sometimes present, what's a good filter for PCM and a good filter for DSD?
my stable DPLL currently is BW08 is that good?

Also in comparison to Auralic Vega, Vega might be fairly technical (Even though I find this to be even more technical), Vega to me was spiritless, it played the music, that's it.
004 is everything, both Technical and Musical and Emotional, when you start crying from the music, and/or tapping/clapping/dancing from the music, that's something else.

Hope my First Impressions are a good read, promise, I'm not a sponsor for LKS nor was I paid by them in any way.


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 15, 2017)

XVampireX said:


> So far, the bass rocks, the mids especially the voice parts are amazingly clear, the highs are a little on the harsh side hope it's gonna calm down a little in a little more burn-in.
> Soundstage, excellent, in comparison with the Auralic Vega, the Vega was a little too much in my face, 004 takes it further from me quite a bit, both in depth, width, height but still keeps every element in their the respective space based on the recording quality.
> It's much easier to listen to rock/metal music with the 004 and I would even say that this is the DAC for metalhead audiophiles.
> Details and Microdetails are present in a matter I'm not accustomed to, you can hear how the instrument is being played and even with what tools pretty much, of course whatever is happening in the background like in live music you can hear the the different coughs and what not quite clearly.
> ...



Well, I am gonna throw out my experiences again here.  Harsh highs are more likely to be your Interconnect cables from the 004 into your amplifier.  My friend, if you don't want to pay any rip-off pricing on good quality cables, buy a soldering iron and start working on them.

Also times to times, noises when presented in high performances system would also be perceived as harshness and sibilants.  May want to check into your sources as well

FIY I use all Silver wire on my Interconnect cables and there is no such things as Harsh High into my Stax 009 which also has all Silver wires inside the amplifier

  [QUOTE


----------



## brickears

http://jplay.eu/ml_post_slider/jcat-usb-card-femto/


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 15, 2017)

brickears said:


> http://jplay.eu/ml_post_slider/jcat-usb-card-femto/


I see, the Sony docking Cradle also has similar features but may not be as beefy.  I do want to upgrade to larger crystal for my dock too though.  You can see it small crystal here.  Now this makes me want to try this Card you listed above


----------



## brickears

Have to admit the reclocker is surprisingly good, even fed from an awful TV optical.


----------



## brickears

Whitigir said:


> Completely agree, but we can't really debate it though, given the reputation of the Dave and the build.  People maybe buying for luxurious feeling, I buy stuff because it sounds good....hell, I even make it like homeless style just because it sounds good, doesn't have to look good.  For example this is my USB cables with silver-gold wires by 8 cores and Separated shielding, and it look funky, but is the best built for audio quality .  Back on topic, I do like the midrange of these nichicon, will the 7F Panasonic be changing too much in the sound signature of the 004 ?



I'll change the caps in 2-3 weeks and report back.  Better transient response should actually clear up the midrange even more so, little more crisp etc.


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 15, 2017)

brickears said:


> I'll change the caps in 2-3 weeks and report back.  Better transient response should actually clear up the midrange even more so, little more crisp etc.


That is what I would like as well, it seems the upper mid into lower treble resolution can be improved further and I would love that.  I too did order some Capacitors and see if I have time to put my mind into it.  For now though, all the quality is not encouraging me to modify anything



brickears said:


> Have to admit the reclocker is surprisingly good, even fed from an awful TV optical.



I agree, and I do know what you mean.  This seems to be the best solution for people who is using desktop PC or laptop PC to use as audiophile transportations.  In the future when I make a desktop PC for my family entertainment, I will put into this card


----------



## brickears

Worth considering allo usbridge now the amanero USB firmware is soon to be fixed for native dsd support too.


----------



## Whitigir

brickears said:


> Worth considering allo usbridge now the amanero USB firmware is soon to be fixed for native dsd support too.


And yes, the Native DSD is horrible on Amenero, even with my new replacement card  sad.  Though PCM on it is awesome and better than Xmos


----------



## b0bb

brickears said:


> @b0bb i think you might have mentioned that LKS may have done this to tame some of the harshness from the 575-50 in place, though that applied more so to the 003 design.
> 
> Is it worth investing in an upgraded crystal soon after given the possibility of this?
> 
> I suspect the reclocker on the 9038 is also sensitive to crystal quality.  I was thinking of starting with the crystek cchd-950x though I'm happy to take suggestions here.  Will consider the Pulsar once I've tried a cheaper alternative to understand impact at first.



The 950x + associated parts is about 50USD not much of a risk to try. The sound will change and you may have to replace the caps around the XO regulator, the choice of audio caps for bypass of high speed digital loads like an XO seems odd to me.


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 16, 2017)

b0bb said:


> The 950x + associated parts is about 50USD not much of a risk to try. The sound will change and you may have to replace the caps around the XO regulator, the choice of audio caps for bypass of high speed digital loads like an XO seems odd to me.



Do we have to replace caps around the crystal if we use pulsar clock ?


----------



## fjc36

Does LKS already does a upgrade and solve a problem of the over-temperature (heat) by move away the I/V? How?


----------



## Whitigir

I don't think 004 has over heat problem.  People only worry about the heat being dissipated toward the Capacitors which reduces the life time of the 004.


----------



## XVampireX

The device is on for around 17 hours now and it's really not that hot, my amp is hotter.


----------



## Whitigir

XVampireX said:


> The device is on for around 17 hours now and it's really not that hot, my amp is hotter.


Exactly! It only gets slightly warm and not hot at all


----------



## djmj24

XVampireX said:


> Yup, that's what I'm saying, lets stay non mainstream, let them be the fools


In full agreement with you!


----------



## brickears

b0bb said:


> The 950x + associated parts is about 50USD not much of a risk to try. The sound will change and you may have to replace the caps around the XO regulator, the choice of audio caps for bypass of high speed digital loads like an XO seems odd to me.



I'll try get some pictures of the revised PCB by early next week, as the area has been revised.  Would there be any side effects or difficulties of using a 14 pin DIP socket when switching the XOs ?  Switching the caps for Panasonic FMs are priority first.


----------



## brickears

Whitigir said:


> I don't think 004 has over heat problem.  People only worry about the heat being dissipated toward the Capacitors which reduces the life time of the 004.





XVampireX said:


> The device is on for around 17 hours now and it's really not that hot, my amp is hotter.



You may have the revised version where the output transistors that used to reside next to the I/V caps has now been placed on the other side of the PCB far away, hence doesn't seem too hot.


----------



## Whitigir

brickears said:


> You may have the revised version where the output transistors that used to reside next to the I/V caps has now been placed on the other side of the PCB far away, hence doesn't seem too hot.


Nah, mine is very early unit I can guarantee you that


----------



## littlexx26

Any difference in sound quality after revised version?


----------



## brickears

littlexx26 said:


> Any difference in sound quality after revised version?



Don't think any of us have the new and the old revisions side by side yet.  Though its possible there is a difference given the revisions.


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> Any difference in sound quality after revised version?





brickears said:


> Don't think any of us have the new and the old revisions side by side yet.  Though its possible there is a difference given the revisions.


If nit picking, then sure, may be very nuances differences.  There are even Jensen Capacitors vs Mundorf one, and mine has Jensen Capacitors inside  and older USB power card, which I later got a replacement sent in.  Majority of it shall be very similar and the same


----------



## Lennym (Aug 16, 2017)

Whitigir said:


> And yes, the Native DSD is horrible on Amenero, even with my new replacement card--sad.  Though PCM on it is awesome and better than Xmos


I'm not having any issues with the Amanero.  Works fine.  For the moment I'm using it almost exclusively to play .dsf rips from my SACDs.  DPLL is at 06.  Music is on a 1TB Toshiba HD into an ASUS laptop running JRiver and out through the USB cable packed with the DAC (currently researching a better, reasonably priced, cable).  I also block the #4 USB contact which carries the 5 volts, unnecessary for the Amanero. Slightly better sound as a result.  What comes through is what's on the file.  There's great audio, there's better audio; there's worse audio.  I have also played PCMs through the Amanero with DPLL at 01.  On occasion, when music is not playing it makes a shwsh sound for a moment or two.


Whitigir said:


> I don't think 004 has over heat problem.  People only worry about the heat being dissipated toward the Capacitors which reduces the life time of the 004.


I have put heat sinks on pairs of the warm transistors and a strip of Reflect-a-Gold between them and the 22uF caps.  I think it also helps to turn the top cover around so that the screened opening is over these transistors and caps.  Looking forward to how the Panasonic caps sound.


----------



## Whitigir

Lennym said:


> I'm not having any issues with the Amanero.  Works fine.  For the moment I'm using it almost exclusively to play .dsf rips from my SACDs.  DPLL is at 06.  Music is on a 1TB Toshiba HD into an ASUS laptop running JRiver and out through the USB cable packed with the DAC (currently researching a better, reasonably priced, cable).  What comes through is what's on the file.  There's great audio, there's better audio; there's worse audio.  I have also played PCMs through the Amanero with DPLL at 01.  On occasion, when music is not playing it makes a shwsh sound for a moment or two.
> .



My issues were that with different filtering on different DSD files, the unit acts like it is possessed, different howling noises and statics....etc....etc....that was why I asked for replacement module, and even so...still happening.


----------



## XVampireX

People keep saying that Yggdrasil is awesome with 16/44.1khz it would be an awesome comparison with LKS MH-DA004 because I find this to my liking  (Pun from Diablo 2, Ref Act 2)


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 16, 2017)

XVampireX said:


> People keep saying that Yggdrasil is awesome with 16/44.1khz it would be an awesome comparison with LKS MH-DA004 because I find this to my liking  (Pun from Diablo 2, Ref Act 2)


Lol.....the speed of modern DAC is so slow man, and so some manufacturers are trying to match up the speed with R2R and Delta Sigma technologies to keep their products life-cycle for more than 1-2 years.  They can also throw in some FPGA like a fancy little dandy and charge for $10,000.

But and then, seriously, these DAC progressing is so slow that most of the China done right products with Ancients technologies such as Discrete Class A output, simple circuitry regulatory and design with different paths just need some little tweaking here and there to accommodate, and in the while improving the quality of which coming off from the DAC chips themselves @ affordable prices and Great quality.

What I want to see is to have these Dave or Jason to compete with LSK DAC in the next 5 years.  Does it make sense to pay 10k for a unit that can only last up to 5 years ? Idk...not for me


----------



## fjc36

Whitigir said:


> I don't think 004 has over heat problem.  People only worry about the heat being dissipated toward the Capacitors which reduces the life time of the 004.


Correct, no overheating, my question is "does LKS solve this problem?"


----------



## brickears

About to place the order for the Panasonic FMs as well as Crsytek CCHD-950X.  

Should I be going for 50v 47uf for the Panasonic FM?  Doesn't appear to be a 50v version from Mouser at least.

And I guess the XO will be this one : http://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDeta...D-950X-25-100000/?qs=L4klnTtkofObrfUJUtC8ig==


----------



## Whitigir

25V - 47uF ?


----------



## brickears

Whitigir said:


> 25V - 47uF ?



Probably, ill open it up next week, just being lazy.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 17, 2017)

brickears said:


> About to place the order for the Panasonic FMs as well as Crsytek CCHD-950X.
> 
> Should I be going for 50v 47uf for the Panasonic FM?  Doesn't appear to be a 50v version from Mouser at least.
> 
> And I guess the XO will be this one : http://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDeta...D-950X-25-100000/?qs=L4klnTtkofObrfUJUtC8ig==



Mouser UK has a 330uF/35V in a 8mm dia. can that is suitable.

The link for the XO points to a suitable unit.


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Do we have to replace caps around the crystal if we use pulsar clock ?


Yes


----------



## brickears

b0bb said:


> Yes



Is it worth doing a cap replacement for the 950X too?  I still need to send a proper picture of the revised board for that matter.


----------



## b0bb

brickears said:


> Is it worth doing a cap replacement for the 950X too?  I still need to send a proper picture of the revised board for that matter.


That needs a different type of cap, something like a Nichicon R7 between 47uF and 220uF, just be mindful of making too changes at once, the DAC is going to sound  quite different with each mod.


----------



## brickears

Will do, the plan is to stage each minor change with a week or two between them.


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 18, 2017)

b0bb said:


> That needs a different type of cap, something like a Nichicon R7 between 47uF and 220uF, just be mindful of making too changes at once, the DAC is going to sound  quite different with each mod.



Now, the next thing I would like more improved is that I want more vertical senses of spaces.  What should I start tinkering with ?


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Now, the next thing I would like more improved is that I want more vertical senses of spaces.  What should I start tinkering with ?



The older LT3042 PSU that comes with the enhanced USB is quite good but there is considerable room for improvement.
It can be rebuilt to give substantial improvement in instrument separation and the low end response becomes deeper by about 0.5-1 octave lower
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-8#post-12035366

I am using the above board in the 004.

The 004 even in stock form has very good vertical separation, the rebuilt PSU board improves on this further.
You need to use a head phone or speakers capable of providing good vertical sound staging.

The HD800 is very good at this, it bests the SR009 in this respect, as for speakers it needs to be quite tall, my primary speaker is a Martin Logan Summit which is about 5ft tall.


----------



## rudra

anyone compared the D004 with a holo spring dac?


----------



## brickears

b0bb said:


> The 004 even in stock form has very good vertical separation, the rebuilt PSU board improves on this further.
> You need to use a head phone or speakers capable of providing good vertical sound staging.
> 
> The HD800 is very good at this, it bests the SR009 in this respect, as for speakers it needs to be quite tall, my primary speaker is a Martin Logan Summit which is about 5ft tall.



Agree with B0bb here, via my Kef Blades + NC1200s, and comparing against my baseline (T+A DAC 8 DSD) the enhanced USB setup is superb in vertical separation.  If anything it may lack a bit on the depth plane (still plentiful), but I'll give it time as its barely 1.5 weeks ran in.  Plus as you know I have those Panasonic FMs on the way (thanks @b0bb  for the values) so I'll report back on that in due course.


----------



## brickears (Aug 19, 2017)

I should mention that what appears to be the final Amanero firmware with full native DSD linux support is now available via the Amanero update tool.  You will either need a recent kernel for the linux support or to recompile with the ALSA patches from xmos-native-dsd repo to work mind, so it can detect the right VID/PID and treat it accordingly.

What is significant (for native DSD nutters like me at least) is Amanero have mentioned to have implemented a much faster implementation codepath for native DSD.  I know @b0bb mentioned trying an XMOS based card in the past as he thought the jitter performance at higher DSD rates was causing the DPLL bandwidth to be increased to possibly tolerate the higher jitter.  

This will be something I'll try by next weekend and report back, as I'd be more than happy to remove the final Windows 10 machine in my home, plus it can be rolled back reasonably easily.  Linux is far far easier to tune as well (e.g. real time kernels, stripping a system back to its barebones entirely), which could result in better sound upstream if the rest of your USB chain keeps up.  It is irritating how sensitive good DACs can be to USB quality.


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> The older LT3042 PSU that comes with the enhanced USB is quite good but there is considerable room for improvement.
> It can be rebuilt to give substantial improvement in instrument separation and the low end response becomes deeper by about 0.5-1 octave lower
> 
> 
> ...



You are correct.  I don't think 009 has this vertical soundstage that I am looking for


----------



## Rickmusicman

Does anyone know if the I2S input  is compatible with PS Audio I2S connections? I just purchased a PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport and would like to use the I2S output from the transport into the I2S input of the LKS MH-DA004. I emailed tech support at PS Audio concerning this and this is the answer: "Our I2S output is an HDMI input that uses a custom pinout. We have made this pinout widely available, and some folks have started implementing it." Does anyone know if LKS is one that does implement the PS Audio pinout? Thanks


----------



## brickears

Can anyone recommend a 10-15VA toroidal transformer that can be sourced from EU/UK ?  For the enhanced USB power feed.


----------



## littlexx26

Anyone tried iFI micro iUSB3.0 with this DAC? I read some positive reviews about this USB cleaner. I wonder if still has effects on the upgraded USB version.


----------



## Lennym (Aug 21, 2017)

Rickmusicman said:


> Does anyone know if the I2S input  is compatible with PS Audio I2S connections? I just purchased a PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport and would like to use the I2S output from the transport into the I2S input of the LKS MH-DA004. I emailed tech support at PS Audio concerning this and this is the answer: "Our I2S output is an HDMI input that uses a custom pinout. We have made this pinout widely available, and some folks have started implementing it." Does anyone know if LKS is one that does implement the PS Audio pinout? Thanks


The LKS HDMI  pin assignments are given on p.4 of the LKS manual.  Just get the PS Audio pin assignments from them and compare.


----------



## ti5002000

brickears said:


> Can anyone recommend a 10-15VA toroidal transformer that can be sourced from EU/UK ?  For the enhanced USB power feed.



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toroidal-Ma...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## brickears

@b0bb and co, I have a https://linearaudio.nl/silentswitcher to hand, and with a 9v/2a supply it can achieve 5v/1a output.  Given its performance, is there any reason I'd still want to stick with the torodial path?  Will ofcourse isolate the silentswitcher's feed from the main torodial as part of this.

On that matter, anyone got any idea what the power pin configuration is for the Amanero is?


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 23, 2017)

Isn't the pin configurations silkscreened onto the USB card ? And my Capacitors 47uF @ 25V is so little ....LOL.  Is it the wrong voltage for the DAC ? I didn't look at these stock Capacitors


----------



## brickears

Whitigir said:


> Isn't the pin configurations silkscreened onto the USB card ? And my Capacitors 47uF @ 25V is so little ....LOL.  Is it the wrong voltage for the DAC ? I didn't look at these stock Capacitors


Guess I'll find out this weekend (re: voltages).


----------



## b0bb (Aug 24, 2017)

brickears said:


> @b0bb and co, I have a https://linearaudio.nl/silentswitcher to hand, and with a 9v/2a supply it can achieve 5v/1a output.  Given its performance, is there any reason I'd still want to stick with the torodial path?  Will ofcourse isolate the silentswitcher's feed from the main torodial as part of this.
> 
> On that matter, anyone got any idea what the power pin configuration is for the Amanero is?


That supply has multiple outputs. The low noise 15V outputs can supply only up to 150mA with 0.004mV noise. The 6V/9V auxillary output comes from the switched mode regulator  which has 5mV of noise, this is fairly typical of a low noise switcher.
The existing LKS enhanced USB regulator uses the LT3042 with 0.0008mV of noise, about 5X lower noise than the regulator above.


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> That supply has multiple outputs. The low noise 15V outputs can supply only up to 150mA with 0.004mV noise. The 6V/9V auxillary output comes from the switched mode regulator  which has 5mV of noise, this is fairly typical of a low noise switcher.
> The existing LKS enhanced USB regulator uses the LT3042 with 0.0008mV of noise, about 5X lower noise than the regulator above.


What is the amperage for the Power supply card into USB ? I bought a transformer and it has 2x secondary of 15V.  I wonder if I should parallel them up for double amperage or ....it would blow stuff lol


----------



## brickears

Whitigir said:


> What is the amperage for the Power supply card into USB ? I bought a transformer and it has 2x secondary of 15V.  I wonder if I should parallel them up for double amperage or ....it would blow stuff lol



b0bb has mentioned in the past 6-8v, no more than 15VA max for the toroidal.


----------



## Whitigir

Yeah, but the current max would be ?


----------



## brickears

Whitigir said:


> Yeah, but the current max would be ?



Very easily 1a or less.  Those Amanero boards don't need a great deal give they can be powered from USB if desired.


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 25, 2017)

Yeah, I need exact figure to make sure 

This is the one I got 330mA per secondary 15V

http://www.antekinc.com/an-0115/


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> What is the amperage for the Power supply card into USB ? I bought a transformer and it has 2x secondary of 15V.  I wonder if I should parallel them up for double amperage or ....it would blow stuff lol



About 180mA (120mA for card  + 60mA for the XOs)

Transformer voltages are specified at full load, 15V seems high you should measure the secondary voltage with no load, I expect it to be between 18-20V, the max DC voltage would be 1.4x that number.

If the AC input to the regulator is too high it will overheat.


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> About 180mA (120mA for card  + 60mA for the XOs)
> 
> Transformer voltages are specified at full load, 15V seems high you should measure the secondary voltage with no load, I expect it to be between 18-20V, the max DC voltage would be 1.4x that number.
> 
> If the AC input to the regulator is too high it will overheat.


I will go with 7V secondary then.  Thank you!


----------



## Lennym

Whitigir said:


> I will go with 7V secondary then.  Thank you!



Whitigir, Are you using an RFI filter on the AC input? If so, which? 

Thanks.


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 26, 2017)

Lennym said:


> Whitigir, Are you using an RFI filter on the AC input? If so, which?
> 
> Thanks.


I plan on using one from Furutech right after the main one and switch ? With crimped on wires or soldering, but I think for now I need to get a good transformer and a slot to fit him it first
furutech-ac-1001


----------



## Lennym (Aug 26, 2017)

Whitigir said:


> I plan on using one from Furutech right after the main one and switch ? With crimped on wires or soldering, but I think for now I need to get a good transformer and a slot to fit him it first
> furutech-ac-1001


Oh, I see.  Interesting.    Isn't that an IEC?  I thought the plan was to piggy-back on the existing IEC.  Will hopefully look forward to  a picture.
Would love to hear your reaction to the change, as I use the USB a lot.  Of course I've already insulated the USB socket.

Cheers!


----------



## Whitigir

Lennym said:


> Oh, I see.  Interesting.    I thought the plan was to piggy-back on the existing IEC.
> Would love to hear your reaction to the change, as I use the USB a lot.  Of course I've already insulated the USB socket.
> 
> Cheers!


Oh yeah, I am going to piggy back as well on the same socket.  Simply parallel the wires into the Furutech filtering and then connect it to the transformer.


----------



## Lennym (Sep 3, 2017)

The Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2v2SE @ $3799 seems so similar in its configuration and operation to the LKS 004 that its user manual could just about substitute for the skeletal one supplied by LKS.  https://wyred4sound.com/sites/default/files/DAC-2v2SE 10th Anniversary manual_0.pdf

A pretty good description of the Wyred 4 Sound hardware is contained in the manual.


----------



## Lennym (Sep 4, 2017)

Apparently the Wired 4 Sound DAC had a heat problem with its ESS 9038 chip (Sound familiar?), originally delivered without a heat sink.  So they developed a massive heat sink for their lone chip.  This is described by W4S with a good picture here: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...ings-the-best-decision-unequivocally/?page=58

Owners are sending the DAC to the factory for the heat sink, though it looks like one that can be installed by a user or a dealer, but it is large.

It seems some of the 9038 designs (like LKS) run the chip very hot, and some (like the Oppo Sonica) run the chips cooler and don't require heat sinking.  Any comments from the stronger technical members?


----------



## vlach

Still no comparisons with the Holo Spring DAC?


----------



## littlexx26

is this better than weiss medus?


----------



## cmcgarry

I've just taken delivery of this wonderful machine thanks to all the reviews posted here. Not had much chance to listen yet but I'm hoping it's a huge upgrade on my blusound node 2.

Has anyone managed to get dsd256/512 native working in roon or hq player?


----------



## brickears

cmcgarry said:


> I've just taken delivery of this wonderful machine thanks to all the reviews posted here. Not had much chance to listen yet but I'm hoping it's a huge upgrade on my blusound node 2.
> 
> Has anyone managed to get dsd256/512 native working in roon or hq player?



Yes, with Windows Amanero driver selected in ASIO mode, both Roon and HQPlayer have no problem playing at DSD 512 rates (provided PC keeps up).


----------



## brickears (Sep 10, 2017)

Just an update; I've held off from fitting the caps as it still seems the unit is breaking in.  Quite glad I did wait.  Certainly some of the dynamic swing has recovered, if not quite T+A level, but good enough.  In virtually all other respects its pulling ahead of the T+A now, even in DSD 512 mode.

The Amanero PCB is running the latest firmware, now compatible with Linux Native DSD.  It's connected to a Allo Usbridge to great effect.  Certainly in the same category sonically as the JCAT Femto, and able to stream DSD 512 in roon very well (just about with NAA).  Just beware the current latest firmware is very occasionally glitchy, though not nearly as much of an issue with the Usbridge as that tends to be stable once locked.  There's currently no Windows driver for the latest firmware either.

I have noticed underneath the chassis that LKS has added a heatsink strip and mounted all of the output transistors against it, which no doubt also lowers the heat stress on the I/V caps on the other side.

@b0bb : any suggestions where I can find a DIP socket that's suitable for the LKS PCB, for when I get around to changing the XO?  Will take your advice and stage each change in a slow progressive manor.


----------



## littlexx26

the reviewer in audiostream says "In my experience, the other DAC that betters the T+A is the dCS Rossini", now people said this DAC is better than T+A. That means this DAC is dCS level?


----------



## Whitigir

Yeah, fine gold Nichicon is great capacitors for audio.  I have not installed mine either.  By the way, Coax in is excellent


----------



## fc911c (Sep 11, 2017)

Hi all,

I have had the Lks 004 Dac for a few weeks now and for the most part I am very pleased. The only gripe I have is, it keeps loosing the lock after its on for a while. I placed a small fan blowing on the Dac chips and problem went away. I also find that the two heat sinks furthest to the right looking at the front get extremely hot, so much you can't touch them for more than a few seconds. Also the caps closest are very warm.

My question for the Dac chips would be, are there better heat sinks that can be used?
As far as the other chips what could be done about correcting the heat issue there. Maybe moving the chips below the pcb possibly mounting to case, or is there a more efficient part. I really don't want to use a fan.

Thanks


----------



## b0bb

brickears said:


> @b0bb : any suggestions where I can find a DIP socket that's suitable for the LKS PCB, for when I get around to changing the XO?



Aries 1107741
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/aries-electronics/1107741/A462-ND/261894


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> Aries 1107741
> https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/aries-electronics/1107741/A462-ND/261894



Bobb what if we swap out Nichicon for Blackgate Capacitors ? 50V-47mF right ?


----------



## b0bb (Sep 12, 2017)

Whitigir said:


> Bobb what if we swap out Nichicon for Blackgate Capacitors ? 50V-47mF right ?



The caps on the XO supply should be types like the Nichicon R7 (solid polymer) or NOS Sanyo OSCON SGs (organic electrolyte), these are becoming hard to find.
Use the same value as the OE part to start.

Blackgates are audio caps and are not suitable for power supply bypass tasks on high speed digital circuits running at 100MHz+.


----------



## ti5002000

Hi guys
Anyone of you tried to compare the rca outputs to the balanced outputs to see if there is any significant change in the sound ?
Thanks


----------



## littlexx26

ti5002000 said:


> Hi guys
> Anyone of you tried to compare the rca outputs to the balanced outputs to see if there is any significant change in the sound ?
> Thanks



some said rca is better than xlr and some said the opposite. i am using xlr because my amp sounds better with xlr.


----------



## ti5002000

littlexx26 said:


> some said rca is better than xlr and some said the opposite. i am using xlr because my amp sounds better with xlr.


Can i ask what your amp is and which cables you are using?
Thanks


----------



## mb3

ti5002000 said:


> Can i ask what your amp is and which cables you are using?
> Thanks


G'day, I use Mogami gold xlr cables and an Auralic Taurus II amp. This works well for me and sounds great. All the best.


----------



## Whitigir

RCA is Single Ended and XLR is balanced.  The 004 was designed from the ground up to be Balanced with Mono power supply into each channel and DAC , output stage.


----------



## littlexx26

ti5002000 said:


> Can i ask what your amp is and which cables you are using?
> Thanks


*Oyaide TUNAMI TERZO XX V2 and Sony TA-A1ES*


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 13, 2017)

Finally I can use this DAC in bandwidth 01 without stalling issues (cold/hot) doesn't matter, and why does it matter ?


----------



## ti5002000

Whitigir said:


> RCA is Single Ended and XLR is balanced.  The 004 was designed from the ground up to be Balanced with Mono power supply into each channel and DAC , output stage.


I know that rca is single ended but I want to know if someone have noted differences.
I miss some impact and dynamic that I had in my last Dac.. I used rca in my dynahi with it but of course they are different dacs with their respective differences. So maybe I am missing something with the rca outs...


----------



## Lennym (Sep 15, 2017)

For reasons I am uncertain of my Amanero board went dead a few days ago.  I wrote to Jinbo at LKS supposing I would need a replacement.  He suggested that I first try flashing the board with the latest firmware.  He told me he was preparing detailed instructions for doing that.  So I waited.  Conclusion of the story is that it worked perfectly and my board is up and running.  Jinbo's instructions are detailed, one step at a time, illustrated and entirely in English.  I've made a very few clarifications and turned it into a .pdf.  As I wrote to him, this kind of support on mu-sound's support page would go a long way to getting this great product the recognition it deserves outside of East Asia.

I tried to upload the file here, but do not see it.  If I haven't done it correctly perhaps someone could PM me.  In any event if it doesn't show I'd be happy to send it if you would PM me.


----------



## mb3

Well done - if you could post the details here that would be appreciated.


----------



## Lennym

I tried to upload the file, but I don't see it.  It's 9 pages.  i'll try it again here.  If it does not appear perhaps someone can tell me how.


----------



## littlexx26

does it sound better with new firmware?


----------



## Lennym

littlexx26 said:


> does it sound better with new firmware?



It loaded Firmware 1.096c3w2 which I don't think is different than what I had before.  It's what Jinbo's instructions recommend.  Also I've changed to a silver USB cable, so it does sound better.

On the Amanero site there is a firmware 1099rc1.  Is that a later version?  Perhaps someone can comment on using it.


----------



## brickears (Sep 17, 2017)

It's the 2003 versions that are Linux Native DSD only compatible (unless Amanero have released the latest Windows driver for it?) so I'd be careful unless your a Linux user.  You'll need 4.9+ kernel to be compatible out of the box with Native DSD.  It's slightly glitchy but mostly stable, and sounds on par with previous version.

I've also gone back to my T+A as I've truly missed the dynamic swing on that unit.  It makes the LKS sounds un-energetic, and a little too laid back.  When the T+A is properly warmed up its also stretching out further on the sound-stage in all planes, though the LKS doesn't exactly lack in this area.  One thing that did surprise me was the T+A with highly compressed music - very soild, composed, extracted what it could without falling apart.  LKS not so great in this area.    T+A bass is truly special, and whilst the LKS doesn't quite match it, its again not too far off.

The LKS still walks over the T+A in PCM mode, no doubts there for PCM listeners.  But used in DSD 512 mode, in my setup the T+A is actually ahead with exception to the last shades of tonality / resolution. 

The T+A's analog volume control is clearly better at lower volumes, but again the LKS doesn't shame itself here either.

The good news is the LKS isn't that far behind, and I suspect with some tweaks it could definitely catch up.

On a slight bummer - I've noticed my right channel has a low level hissing that appears after an hour or so of playing music, regardless of input, and regardless of whether its playing or idle.  Anything I can tweak here?  It's loud enough to be heard 2m+ from my speakers in a quiet room, and doesn't appear with the T+A.  I suspect I may have to return it for repair.


----------



## brickears

LKS have already replied, want myself to send it back for repairs.  They're also going to look at the caps upgrades and getting the current XO onto a DIP, along with placing a 950X onto a DIP card.  Could work out quite well in the end.


----------



## Lennym

brickears said:


> LKS have already replied, want myself to send it back for repairs.  They're also going to look at the caps upgrades and getting the current XO onto a DIP, along with placing a 950X onto a DIP card.  Could work out quite well in the end.


Are you going to send them the whole unit, or are you going to pull the circuit board and just send that?


----------



## brickears

Lennym said:


> Are you going to send them the whole unit, or are you going to pull the circuit board and just send that?



Circuit board only, along with a Crystek 950X.  LKS don't reckon there's much to be gained out of the XO, but he's happy for me to try and experiment.


----------



## b0bb

brickears said:


> Circuit board only, along with a Crystek 950X.  LKS don't reckon there's much to be gained out of the XO, but he's happy for me to try and experiment.


LKS is correct for the stock configuration. The caps on the XO regulator have to be changed as well as the bypass caps for the I/V converter.

On its own the 950X presentation is even more laid back if the caps are not changed.

If LKS is doing the work for you, ask them if they can change the bypass cap for the DAC's DC current reference, this is the big axial cap in the foreground next to the red WIMA boxes, use a very low DC leakage cap like a solid tantalum bead.
LKS should do the work as it involves resetting the DAC's DC offset and this is not easy with the 004.


----------



## brickears

@b0bb yep LKS are changing all the Nichion caps in the DAC + Output stage including the bypass caps to Blackgate suitable equivalents, including those LPF ones at the rear.  Should be interesting.


----------



## bibo01

With DSD (64-512) playback  what is the lowest DPLL you can achieve on 004?


----------



## Lennym (Sep 20, 2017)

On a consistent basis: 7.  For some files I can lower it, but sooner or later, back to 7.  For PCM, of course: 1.


----------



## brickears

Just a heads up on the right channel issue - it seems the Amanero with beta firmware caused the hissing issue, which persisted across different inputs once caused (?!).  Guess it set the DAC into a bad state.  Will look to get the LKS revised as it does seem a bit too thin and dull compared to the T+A.  I wonder how much of this is related to the digital volume control mind?


----------



## Whitigir (Oct 4, 2017)

I have upgraded the firmware on my Amenero with the PDF guides from Mel @Lennym. Thank you very much!

Firmware can be downloaded at Amenero website
https://amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm
I did not hope to have any gain from Audio performances, but instead I want the DAC to stop loosing lock in low bandwidth during USB connections.

The process involved opening up the unit and resetting the USB module with powered on, so there is a risk of possible electric shock.

Testing it out now, and hope that it won’t lose lock at BD02, and stalling

So I will screenshot the process and post it here.  Please follow the steps below.

*Disclaimers: do this at your own risk as working with any live powered electrical devices will have a deadly potential risk.  Be warned, take precautions, and know what you are doing to take precautions steps necessary . 

I am simply sharing the processes and experiences, the risk is your to take, and I can not be held responsible for anything happened to you and your device.*



        

***Still losing lock and stall with BD01 and BD02 in the first 15 minutes randomly


----------



## Lennym

"***Still losing lock and stall with BD01 and BD02 in the first 15 minutes randomly"

With PCM files?


----------



## Whitigir

Lennym said:


> "***Still losing lock and stall with BD01 and BD02 in the first 15 minutes randomly"
> 
> With PCM files?


Yeah, BD03 is ok though


----------



## Lennym

What are you using as music source?  I am using a small Toshiba hard disk into an ASUS e403sa laptop running JRiver and the LKS supplied USB cable into the Amanero.  BD001 works for PCM and BD007 works for DSD.


----------



## Whitigir

Sony WM1Z for the Music Source


----------



## cmcgarry

Really enjoying this brilliant unit, still not anywhere near burnt in.

Which filter setting are people liking for PCM / DSD?


----------



## OscarJr (Oct 7, 2017)

Hello everyone.  While I may not be a head-fi enthusiast, I decided to join to give thanks to everyone that has really contributed to the knowledge of this seemingly great unit.  I say seemingly because I have not had the chance to listen to one.  I use loudspeakers, not headphones, and while I currently use a Resonessence Labs Concero HD as my primary DAC because I got it for pennies on the dollar, I couldn't help but wonder what else was out there that utilized the 9038Pro chip that wasn't a Mytek Manhattan II or a Resonessence Labs Invicta Mirus HD @ $6000 a pop(!).  I just received my brand new set of Legacy Audio Calibre speakers, and I definintely want the best bang for the buck with regards to DAC performance.  This thread has proved very useful.  There is still a lot of information I need to re-read to digest it all.  While I know a little bit of electronics here-and-there, a lot of this stuff is flying over my head and I can't jump high enough to even get close to it, lol.


----------



## hyperdanny

Dos anyone knows if the I2S HDMI in the MH DA-004 could be compatible with the HDMI pin settings of the PS Audio cd drives?
I'm trying to contact MU about this, but I am not (yet) getting an answer, so maybe someone of you guys has been there before....


----------



## vick_v

Pin-out is in the documentation so you just have to compare it to the PS Audio, but my guess would be not without a custom cable. Nobody seems to like or support the PS Audio pin-out.



hyperdanny said:


> Dos anyone knows if the I2S HDMI in the MH DA-004 could be compatible with the HDMI pin settings of the PS Audio cd drives?
> I'm trying to contact MU about this, but I am not (yet) getting an answer, so maybe someone of you guys has been there before....


----------



## Lennym

Though the hdmi outputs of PS Audio music servers are called I2S, I think there are limitations hard wired in and that they won't output DSD except to PS Audio DACs.  This is done, no doubt, to satisfy SACD limitations.  In any event, I suggest you look at their owner's manual.  The manual  for the Direct Stream Memory Player is on line.

As was said, the LKS pin assignments are in its manual, so the place to ask about compatibility is at PS Audio.


----------



## brickears

I've ordered a Talema 15VA, 7v windings sealed transformer for the USB feed + PCB mount (only small one I know of), and will be sending the PCB next week to china for cap upgrades, 950X and DC offset adjustments.


----------



## hyperdanny

@Vick v
not quite so...since I have started the selection for a new DAC, I could determine that the Denanfrips Venus and Pontus do support it (chat with Vinshine's Alvin) and also Audio-gd does , at least the latest R2R 7 (as reported by the guys @Magna hifi).
So..not only it is possible, there's even choice.


----------



## MadRiver

Hi fellow LKS mh-da004 owners - having grown increasingly frustrated with the behaviour of my DAC when it gets too hot, and wanting a longer term solution that doesn't require too much interaction, I am thinking of fabricating a replacement top panel from 3mm aluminium or brass sheet, and setting one of these into it:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/AC-Infinit...=1&ref_=ox_sc_act_image_1&smid=A3HRCY7B0FCI0Y

 possibly it will need to be jacked up a little to give clearance, but the size should mean it will only ever need to run at fairly low RPM and should be pretty quiet - clearly a bit of experimentation would be needed in the positioning of the sensor/ relationship between ambient temp within the case & component temp, but I can't see any reason it shouldn't work other than anything arising from placing what is described as a 'PWM' fan motor(I have no real idea what this means) so close to the DAC circuit - any opinions or indeed better ideas would be very much appreciated.
MR


----------



## Lennym

MadRiver said:


> Hi fellow LKS mh-da004 owners - having grown increasingly frustrated with the behaviour of my DAC when it gets too hot, and wanting a longer term solution that doesn't require too much interaction, I am thinking of fabricating a replacement top panel from 3mm aluminium or brass sheet, and setting one of these into it:
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/AC-Infinit...=1&ref_=ox_sc_act_image_1&smid=A3HRCY7B0FCI0Y
> 
> possibly it will need to be jacked up a little to give clearance, but the size should mean it will only ever need to run at fairly low RPM and should be pretty quiet - clearly a bit of experimentation would be needed in the positioning of the sensor/ relationship between ambient temp within the case & component temp, but I can't see any reason it shouldn't work other than anything arising from placing what is described as a 'PWM' fan motor(I have no real idea what this means) so close to the DAC circuit - any opinions or indeed better ideas would be very much appreciated.
> MR



No doubt it will work, but it sounds like a bit of overkill.  I have also discovered that "silent" fans are often not very silent.  If it's a fan you want to use someone has suggested simply using a USB powered whisper fan placed over the opening on top of the 004.  Available on Amazon.

On the 003 thread on this forum at about p. 44 and up there is a discussion of the heat problem of the 004.  Suggestions there that I have used are heat shielding and heat sinks.  The heat sinks I am using are here: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/heatsinks/1899306/?searchTerm=1899306   Someone also suggested that simply removing the top cover is sufficient.  What I do is to tip it up in back so as to increase circulation.  With all of this I think I have taken care of the problem . . . and silently.


----------



## MadRiver

Thanks for your response - I have a fairly early version, and have been following the various threads both here and on Computer Audiophile - Jinbo at Mu Sound sent me some aluminium blocks to fit to the underside of the 9038 chips and a small USB device to update the firmware - I have also fitted heatsinks as suggested in the MH-da003 thread and experimented with a small USB fan - this all seemed to work reasonably well until the onset of colder weather when we started lighting the woodburner in the evenings  (no central heating & no thermostat...) - it may seem like overkill, but the larger fan size should shift more air at lower rpm, and according to the figures should make no more noise than the drive in my PS Audio PWT transport with the added benefit that it should only come one when needed - I am more concerned about electrical noise /RFI /whatever - I am certainly no electronic engineer, and I'm a bit sketchy on whether this is a concern - any information/pointers greatly appreciated
MR


----------



## MadRiver

hyperdanny said:


> Dos anyone knows if the I2S HDMI in the MH DA-004 could be compatible with the HDMI pin settings of the PS Audio cd drives?
> I'm trying to contact MU about this, but I am not (yet) getting an answer, so maybe someone of you guys has been there before....


I have been led to understand that there are (at least) two fundamentally different protocols for the transfer of I2S data, and that it it not merely a question of making up a custom cable - the Wyred4Sound is apparently compatible, but all my research suggests that the LKS is not - I am certainly no authority on the matter, and would actually be delighted to be wrong, but I am currently using the XLR/balanced connection between the two devices with excellent results (occasional misbehaviour of DAC excepted....)
MR


----------



## OscarJr

So what exactly happens when the chips get too hot?  Sound quality goes to crap?  I see one for sale that the seller has yet to respond to, but now I'm having second thoughts.


----------



## Lennym

MadRiver said:


> . . . Jinbo at Mu Sound sent me some aluminium blocks to fit to the underside of the 9038 chips . . .


Can you tell us more about this?  Do you mean on the the other side of the PCB?  An attempt to conduct heat to the bottom plate?  Pictures? 
Thanks.


----------



## MadRiver

OscarJr said:


> So what exactly happens when the chips get too hot?  Sound quality goes to crap?  I see one for sale that the seller has yet to respond to, but now I'm having second thoughts.


I think my domestic arrangements may serve to create something of a 'perfect storm' for the DA-004, and it is a testament to its performance that I am happy to accept its occasional quirks: it really is an astonishingly fine sounding piece of technology.... but to answer your question: yes, SQ deteriorates and it will skip/ lose lock irrespective of BW setting on standard redbook CD fed by a top quality transport - switching it off and letting it cool down solves the problem immediately - I must emphasise that it has to get very hot before this happens, and very few users report their units ever reach these levels of heat 
MR


----------



## MadRiver

Lennym said:


> Can you tell us more about this?  Do you mean on the the other side of the PCB?  An attempt to conduct heat to the bottom plate?  Pictures?
> Thanks.


Pictures would be a bit tedious as I would need to remove the main board and turn it upside down, but quite simply they are two small aluminium blocks with heat transfer adhesive tape on one side that act as a thermal bridge between the underside of the 9038 chips and the bottom plate of the machine ( I used a spot of thermal paste on the casework side as well) - your machine may already have these blocks, as I believe they were part of the 'product development'/beta testing that we all seem to be involved in...
MR


----------



## OscarJr

MadRiver said:


> I think my domestic arrangements may serve to create something of a 'perfect storm' for the DA-004, and it is a testament to its performance that I am happy to accept its occasional quirks: it really is an astonishingly fine sounding piece of technology.... but to answer your question: yes, SQ deteriorates and it will skip/ lose lock irrespective of BW setting on standard redbook CD fed by a top quality transport - switching it off and letting it cool down solves the problem immediately - I must emphasise that it has to get very hot before this happens, and very few users report their units ever reach these levels of heat
> MR



I see.  It seems that installing even a small fan onto it should solve the issue altogether.  I'm now very intruigued how much better my new ~$7000 Legacy Calibre speakers can sound with this upgrade.  My current DAC has a single 9018 MKII and so far it sounds great.  I can only imagine (or not, lol) how much better this unit would be.


----------



## peteg

Have the new ones been updated to handle the heat better?


----------



## Lennym

peteg said:


> Have the new ones been updated to handle the heat better?



Yes.  The transistors have been moved to the bottom of the PCB.


----------



## brickears

Can confirm with latest revision (output transistors at bottom, against a heatsink), no heat issues, no drop outs etc.


----------



## littlexx26

How about sound quality and characteristics?


----------



## OscarJr

brickears said:


> Can confirm with latest revision (output transistors at bottom, against a heatsink), no heat issues, no drop outs etc.



Good to hear.  When did you buy your unit?  Did you buy it straight from ShenzhenAudio?


----------



## hyperdanny

sorry guys, but it's not clear to me...is this "no overheating" LKS an official new version. like a MKII, or is it the result of user's tweakings?


----------



## tracer5

Some observations about the LKS MH-DA004 I purchased from Shenzhen Audio, delivered October 4, 2017. It appears that there is not an overheating problem. I have made some measurements after having the MH-DA004 operating for four hours:
Room ambient = 21C (70F)
MH-DA004 = 29C (84F) measured at top of grill

Unknown is if there are any improvements or new version from L.K.S. Audio. There is nothing to suggest that there is any official new version. I have implemented no tweaks.


----------



## peteg

My Gustard X20 is on 24/7 and on top its 88F (31C), so the LKS should be fine. Wonder if the LKS would be an upgrade over the Gustard, looking at LKS DA004 or Holo Spring dac.


----------



## Torq

peteg said:


> Wonder if the LKS would be an upgrade over the Gustard.



Yes, and quite readily discernibly so.  Top end on the LKS is smoother, without the "artificial" sense of "fake" detail I got listening to the X20.  If you listen intently, the LKS exhibits as good, or better, actual detail than the Gustard.



peteg said:


> looking at LKS DA004 or Holo Spring dac



If you like NOS DACs, or enjoy a "sweeter" presentation, then the Spring DAC is an _easy_ choice.  I'm not a fan of the Spring DAC with it's onboard OS mode (it's a superlative listen in NOS mode), but if you can do the oversampling in software then it's a much more enjoyable unit, for me, than the LKS (or any other 90X8-based DAC).  It's also finished more elegantly, won't make you worry about overheating if you choose to upsample, and is available with a US-serviced warranty (though you have to buy from the US dealer/distributor to get that).

Also, if you have much in the way of DSD content, then the Holo Audio unit is quite hard to beat.  For a long time it was the best DSD-replay I'd heard at any price.

So, in short: Spring DAC L1 > LKS 004 > X20


----------



## peteg

Torq, thanks for the info. I have quite a bit of DSD on my NAS, is it a big jump in sound from L2 to L3 on the Spring dac.


----------



## Torq

peteg said:


> Torq, thanks for the info. I have quite a bit of DSD on my NAS, is it a big jump in sound from L2 to L3 on the Spring dac.



I wouldn't describe it as a "big" jump.  But then I wouldn't describe the difference between L1 and L3 as "big" either.  Readily discernible, sure, but not "big".

That said, I would either save the money and go with the L1, or go the whole hog and do the L3/KTE version.  I had a hard time telling the difference between an L1 and an L2, and that was with audition-style listening and my primary audition playlist.  Doubt I could tell if I was just listening for pleasure.


----------



## littlexx26

spring dac presents sweeter. then which one present more faithfully?


----------



## Emdes (Oct 21, 2017)

In my opinion Holo plays more naturally, more live.
I'm sorry for my English. My native language is Polish
I had Holo and LKS last weekend.
LKS is more dynamic, has a bigger bass.
Bas Holo is more tigh, better than LKS, I do not like fat bass.
For me mid range is better at Holo, the voices and instruments are more realistic.
Both DACs are good, but I chose Spring L1.


----------



## OscarJr

Well I ran into a good deal on this DAC, so I should have it very soon.  I'm quite excited to hear a seemingly impossible upgrade in sound compared to my Resonessence Labs Concero HD, but that's what everything is pointing to.  Can't wait!


----------



## aggielaw

Hi guys.  What front end do you recommend for the D004?  I have a stock Oppo 103, which would be nice to keep because I can play files off my router's NAS as well as SACD (although I listen to SACD about 2% of the time).  I'm willing to give up SACD playback for an accurate, fast, tonally balanced, and detailed front end that lets me play files from NAS or an attached hard drive.  I'm really looking for a sweet spot rather than absolute performance.  Say, $1k or less used.

Thanks for your advice!

HC


----------



## brickears

If your not fussed about DSD support beyond DSD 128 (i.e. not going to upsample) then one of these : https://www.allo.com/sparky-eu/usbridge.html

With the beta Amanero firmware it'll play upto DSD 512 native no problem (but amanero beta firmware is flakey).  Without, it'll play 384k / DSD 128 straight out of the box.


----------



## tracer5

I have the Allo USBridge with Volumio 2.282. It does an excellent job for PCM up to 384 and DSD, but DSD is an issue for the Amanero Combo384 that is inside the MH-DA004. The Combo384 upsamples DSD to PCM352 or PCM384 The MH-DA004 shipping firmware for the Combo384 does not yet support DSD well. There are Amanero beta firmware, user upgradeable, that works on Linux, but then the Windows driver needs to be updated, a work in progress.


----------



## RLugo

tracer5 said:


> I have the Allo USBridge with Volumio 2.282. It does an excellent job for PCM up to 384 and DSD, but DSD is an issue for the Amanero Combo384 that is inside the MH-DA004. The Combo384 upsamples DSD to PCM352 or PCM384 The MH-DA004 shipping firmware for the Combo384 does not yet support DSD well. There are Amanero beta firmware, user upgradeable, that works on Linux, but then the Windows driver needs to be updated, a work in progress.


Good Day for everybody here.
I have just received the MH-DA004 today, connecting it was simple but for some reason I just get 48K out of the USB connection.
May I kindly ask you all about the reason for this?
Thank You very much in advance for your help.
Rene Lugo.


----------



## Lennym

RLugo said:


> Good Day for everybody here.
> I have just received the MH-DA004 today, connecting it was simple but for some reason I just get 48K out of the USB connection.
> May I kindly ask you all about the reason for this?
> Thank You very much in advance for your help.
> Rene Lugo.



I had a similar problem which I wrote about to this thread.  Turns out I was not dealing with JRiver correctly.  If you want help it would be good to know exactly what your software is and and how you are inputting to the USB.


----------



## Lennym

aggielaw said:


> Hi guys.  What front end do you recommend for the D004?  I have a stock Oppo 103, which would be nice to keep because I can play files off my router's NAS as well as SACD (although I listen to SACD about 2% of the time).  I'm willing to give up SACD playback for an accurate, fast, tonally balanced, and detailed front end that lets me play files from NAS or an attached hard drive.  I'm really looking for a sweet spot rather than absolute performance.  Say, $1k or less used.
> 
> Thanks for your advice!
> 
> HC



Don't know if I would recommend it, but I have an Oppo 105 and I also use an ASUS e403sa laptop with a Toshiba hard disk to feed the USB.  Originally the USB set-up was for playing ripped SACDs which could not be sent to the LKS through the Oppo.  But I got a lot of advice that the clocks on the Oppos are not really good and that I should get a better CD transporter for playing disks.  What I am doing instead is ripping all my CDs (a long and tedious project) to the hard disk and playing them through the USB where they are re-clocked by the very good clock on the Amanero.   I do think they sound better.  Since I eventually wanted to rip the CDs anyway, it was a no-brainer.


----------



## RLugo

Just to update.

I went into the playback devices settings under Windows 10 and it was just a matter of opening all the possible resolutions for the Driver.
Now it works...mar-ve-lous-ly.
I need to learn how the different settings affect the outcoming sound.
And that will be a hell of fun.
Any experienced advice will be truly appreciated.

Thank You all.


----------



## bibo01

If you upsample to DSD in software (like to DSD128 or higher), I suggest choosing setting IIR70k. DSD64 usually needs filter at 50 kHz; DSD128, 100 kHz and so on...
DPLL can be at 07, but you need to verify it because it rather demanding. Eventually, you can set DPLL more conservatively.


----------



## OscarJr

bibo01 said:


> If you upsample to DSD in software (like to DSD128 or higher), I suggest choosing setting IIR70k. DSD64 usually needs filter at 50 kHz; DSD128, 100 kHz and so on...
> DPLL can be at 07, but you need to verify it because it rather demanding. Eventually, you can set DPLL more conservatively.



Are you talking about upsampling (output encoding) 44.1k 16-bit files to DSD within a software like JRiver?  Is there really a benefit to doing so?  I know I've seen this in my JRiver software but I've yet to figure out what really makes a difference and what doesn't.


----------



## RLugo

bibo01 said:


> If you upsample to DSD in software (like to DSD128 or higher), I suggest choosing setting IIR70k. DSD64 usually needs filter at 50 kHz; DSD128, 100 kHz and so on...
> DPLL can be at 07, but you need to verify it because it rather demanding. Eventually, you can set DPLL more conservatively.


Thank You very much for your kind advice.
May I ask you what might be considered aggressive and what conservative?


----------



## bibo01

OscarJr said:


> Are you talking about upsampling (output encoding) 44.1k 16-bit files to DSD within a software like JRiver?  Is there really a benefit to doing so?  I know I've seen this in my JRiver software but I've yet to figure out what really makes a difference and what doesn't.


Yes. However, I use HQPlayer which is much better than JRiver at coverting PCM->DSD.
The benefit, in general, depends on the DAC itself as well - on how it handles DSD and on its analog filter.


----------



## bibo01

RLugo said:


> Thank You very much for your kind advice.
> May I ask you what might be considered aggressive and what conservative?


In my view aggressive is 7 or below; conservative is 12.


----------



## Whitigir

The bass in the 004 is indeed big and blooming.  Replacing the Capacitors in the power section (Nichicon) into (chemicon) will tighten it up.  But I love the 004 for what it is.


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> The bass in the 004 is indeed big and blooming.  Replacing the Capacitors in the power section (Nichicon) into (chemicon) will tighten it up.  But I love the 004 for what it is.


can correct using cable?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> can correct using cable?


Doubt it, I have all silver wires in my system, even the power cord .  Probably explain why I love it the way it is


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Doubt it, I have all silver wires in my system, even the power cord .  Probably explain why I love it the way it is


i am currety using oyaide balance cable and inakusik 1603 silver speaker cable. want to try others to see what they can make any difference. where you got your all silver ones?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> i am currety using oyaide balance cable and inakusik 1603 silver speaker cable. want to try others to see what they can make any difference. where you got your all silver ones?


I made them


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> I made them


is it better than factory one?


----------



## Whitigir (Nov 2, 2017)

littlexx26 said:


> is it better than factory one?



Lol, cant tell you that.  But To my experiences and opinion, it is the best Cables that I have ever made and enjoyed, and that was why I made it  .  I don’t simply buy some junk wires and make, I tested and experienced countless of them before I decided which one I make to use.  Using connector of UPOCC Solid and milled into connectors then Cryo treated.  Then OCC solid core silver wires of 18AWG, OFC copper braided shielding.  The materials alone would cost some arm and legs


----------



## littlexx26

UPOCC soild silver is siltech grade cable. only high end makers use this


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> UPOCC soild silver is siltech grade cable. only high end makers use this


Uh huh, what is wrong with going high-end


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Uh huh, what is wrong with going high-end


lavricabes also all silver. is that good too?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> lavricabes also all silver. is that good too?


I tried his cables, and good indeed, but Interconnect cables is more than just that .  The best for your situation would be the best one you can find at the price you can afford


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> I tried his cables, and good indeed, but Interconnect cables is more than just that .  The best for your situation would be the best one you can find at the price you can afford


have you tried inakustik air line cable? it would be very good if using silver material and their technique.


----------



## OscarJr (Nov 2, 2017)

I was having trouble playing some 48k wav files through the LKS.  There was a lot of high-freq hiss/noise.  I snagged the audio off of a youtube video I had downloaded using YouTube Downloader.  I used the convert option and specified 48k sampling rate, but perhaps I should stick with 44.1k?  Or could it be something else?  My Resonessence Labs Concero HD had no such problems at all with the same files.  I'm stumped.  I have the latest Amanero drivers for Windows 10, and tried the Amanero WASAPI output as well as the Combo384 AISO output, but the results were the same.  I cycled through all the settings on the 004 and nothing helped.  As I said, I'm stumped.


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> have you tried inakustik air line cable? it would be very good if using silver material and their technique.



I really didn’t have money and time to try all different manufactured cables, and even if I was being sponsored, I don’t think I would waste my time.  Cables is just cables, and materials is materials, then shielding is shielding.  Those are the 3 essences of any cables, and if they are the right recipe and combination, the result is wonderful.  Period.  Therefore, that was what I did, and got me here  I don’t buy snake oil, I skin the snake myself and then eat it


----------



## rafabro

How you you know what is "wonderful result" if you never tried something different?


----------



## Whitigir (Nov 2, 2017)

rafabro said:


> How you you know what is "wonderful result" if you never tried something different?


Who said I never did ? Unless you meant to try manufactured snake skin and oil, then no.  

Actually, I will rephrase it for the last time.  Every different material sound different, every braiding geometry, the shielding method, they all affect the sound performances to a degree, lesser or more.  However, once you have experiences and played, toyed around them all, those ideas on the principle of the concepts, you can find the “sweet spot” for your own result and satisfaction.

That is what I did, so if you asked me whether Cables affect the performances , or do I believe in Cables, yes, I do.  If you ask me had I wasted money on manufactured cables ? No I have not, I don’t care for them.  Most cables makers won’t be as crazy as I am in seeking the right “sound signature” for my own sound system.

I hope I made that clear


----------



## Lennym

I wonder if anyone can explain this.  When I play a CD in through the Coax the LKS reads "PCM 44".  But when I rip the CD and feed it in through USB on the Amanero board the LKS reads "PCM 48".  Anyone have the same issue?  Is the signal being sent through the wrong clock?


----------



## rafabro

USB is getting signal from where? It must be some kind of form upsampling.


----------



## Muinarc

Sounds like windows mixer upsampling to me.


----------



## tracer5

The Amanero Combo384 is the USB input for the MH-DA004. USB signals from computers are generally of poor quality, containing jitter and noise. Depending on the magnitude of these issues the bandwidth settings for the DA004 are selected. For a high quality USB signals the setting can be quite small. I use BW02 from a USBridge for PCM and BW05 for Native DSD256.


----------



## Lennym

rafabro said:


> USB is getting signal from where? It must be some kind of form upsampling.





Muinarc said:


> Sounds like windows mixer upsampling to me.



Thanks for the replies.  Perhaps you can help me fix this.  Up until now I have been playing only DSD and higher rez PCM files through the USB.  Now I am trying to rip all my CDs and have run into this problem.  I believe this "upsampling" is unnecessary and has an effect on the audio.  

Set-up for USB is a portable hard drive into an ASUS e403sa lap-top (not a complicated device) running Amanero Technologies USB driver 1.0.62 dated 7/7/17* and out to the USB input on the LKS.  When I click on the speaker icon in the lower right corner it indicates it is only sending audio to the Amanero.

I have verified that my .wav rips remain at 44.1/16 as the files have a bit rate of 1411kbps, which verifies them as red book.

Is there anything I should try?  Is it possible there is a problem with my USB board?

Thanks.

*I'm guessing I may have gotten this from the Amanero page rather than the LKS (mu-sound.com) page.  Could that make a difference?  What does your Device Driver say you are running?


----------



## Lennym

tracer5 said:


> The Amanero Combo384 is the USB input for the MH-DA004. USB signals from computers are generally of poor quality, containing jitter and noise. Depending on the magnitude of these issues the bandwidth settings for the DA004 are selected. For a high quality USB signals the setting can be quite small. I use BW02 from a USBridge for PCM and BW05 for Native DSD256.



From my lap-top I am using BW07 for DSD and BW01 for PCM.  However I went to the Allo USBridge site to have a look.  Though it looks interesting it's all a bit confusing as to how it is used.  There is no real explanation..  I have written them and asked.  Their "manual" is not really a manual.  Do you have a url you can refer me to that will show how the unit is hooked up and used?  Or even a photo that would explain?

Thanks.


----------



## tracer5

The Allo USBridge consists of a Sparky SBC and a USBridge daughter board with USB connector. The USBridge reclocks the USB and reduces noise to a very low level, ideal for a USB DAC input. Music files can be on a hard drive or NAS. Players, software is Linux based distributions, DietPi or Volumio 2. I use a NAS and Volumio. Depending on the DAC DSD may be supported to DSD256 in the Linux environment.


----------



## Lennym (Nov 3, 2017)

Now I've discovered that no matter what I send to the USB, DSD or PCM of any resolution, the LKS reads "PCM 48".  I may not have noticed this for a while as I have been playing vinyl and normally keep the lights off the LKS.  It may have begun when I updated the firmware.  I think it's time to write to Jinbo.


----------



## brickears

Lennym said:


> Now I've discovered that no matter what I send to the USB, DSD or PCM of any resolution, the LKS reads "PCM 44".  I may not have noticed this for a while as I have been playing vinyl and normally keep the lights off the LKS.  It may have begun when I updated the firmware.  I think it's time to write to Jinbo.



More likely to be your source and playback setup.  I'd check those first.


----------



## Whitigir

Nah, it is true, 004 display 44khz regardless


----------



## Lennym (Nov 3, 2017)

brickears said:


> More likely to be your source and playback setup.  I'd check those first.



But nothing has changed about my source and playback set-up since it was working perfectly.  Could be the result of reinstalling the Amanero firmware.  That was don at the suggestion of the factory after the board went dead.


----------



## tracer5

Hello, the typical firmware in use by lks it's firmware_1096c to see the version you need to look in control panel —> device manager —> Sound Controllers —> Board Driver —>  harware ids and usb VID_PID&REVision

let me know the VID_PID&Revision of your board but lks uses firmware_1096c.

The firmware for linux is firmware_2003be_71A it works in big endian native DSD/DoP and PCM.

In windows this firmware requires a new driver.


----------



## Lennym

tracer5 said:


> Hello, the typical firmware in use by lks it's firmware_1096c to see the version you need to look in control panel —> device manager —> Sound Controllers —> Board Driver —>  harware ids and usb VID_PID&REVision
> 
> let me know the VID_PID&Revision of your board but lks uses firmware_1096c.
> 
> ...



Firmware is 1.096cxxx from Amanero.com --> Firmware history -->oem tool 117.  

Under Device Manager --> Sound, video and game controllers: Driver is Amanero Technologies USB driver 1.0.62 dated 7/7/17.  I don't think there's a later one for Windows 10. 

Driver Properties --> Events --> Information yields:

"Device USB\VID_16D0&PID_071A\413-001 was migrated.

Last Device Instance Id: USB\VID_16D0&PID_071A\413-001
Class Guid: {4D36E96C-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}
Location Path:
Migration Rank: 0x0
Present: true"

I do not know what this means.

Thanks for your help.


----------



## tracer5

My *Hardware Ids* from a stock DA004 are:
USB\VID_16D0&PID_071A&REV_0196
USB\VID_16D0&PID_071A

The REV_0196 is the firmware installed on the Combo384.

Can you report the *Hardware Id*s?


----------



## tracer5

Additionally:
Last Device Instance Id: USB\VID_16D0&PID_071A\413-001
The *413-001* is the serial number


----------



## Lennym (Nov 5, 2017)

tracer5 said:


> My *Hardware Ids* from a stock DA004 are:
> USB\VID_16D0&PID_071A&REV_0196
> USB\VID_16D0&PID_071A
> 
> ...



Don't know how to do that.

I wonder , before I hear from factory, whether after updating firmware it is necessary to erase and the reinstall the Amanero software.


----------



## tracer5

The Windows 10 driver is 1.0.62
The Windows 7 driver is 1.0.57
From Device Manager -> Sound, video and game controllers select Amanero Technologies USB Driver 1.0.62 (for Windows 10).
Under Details tab select Property. The drop down menu is lengthy. Near the top of the list is Hardware Ids.


----------



## Lennym (Nov 5, 2017)

What I get is almost the same as yours:
USB\VID_16D0&PID_071A&REV_0197
USB\VID_16D0&PID_071A

So the firmware REV_0197 would appear the firmware I installed on mine.  I installed in in mid-September.
Do you think that creates the problem?

Driver is given as 1.0.62 for my Windows 10.

Device instance path is given as: USB\VID_16D0&PID_071A\413-001


----------



## tracer5

Yes... REV_0197 may cause a problem.

If possible please use Maintenance Tool 1.17:

CPLD Firmware Selection: *CPLD_for_1080 *
Flash this version associated with CPU firmware 1.080 with prescaler option

CPU Firmware Selection: *firmware_1096c *
Long mute 100-200 ms F0-F3 already enabled fixed compiler optimization problem

This should solve your issue.


----------



## Lennym

tracer5 said:


> Yes... REV_0197 may cause a problem.
> 
> If possible please use Maintenance Tool 1.17:
> 
> ...



Thank you. 

OK.  I see I made a mistake the first time around installing firmware.  Just did it again using Jinbo's easy instructions--absolutely correctly, as far as I can tell.

After which I looked for Hardware IDs and it comes up, as does yours:
USB\VID_16D0&PID_071A&REV_0196
USB\VID_16D0&PID_071A

Device instance path: USB\VID_16D0&PID_071A\413-001

So now everything is back to normal through JRiver.  Thanks again.


----------



## tracer5

Great to get you back to a stable situation.

If you want to experiment a little you could try:
*CPLD_for_1080*
Flash this version associated with CPU firmware 1.080 with prescaler option*

firmware_1099c *
Alternate settings 2 Little Endian Native DSD


----------



## aggielaw

Lennym said:


> Don't know if I would recommend it, but I have an Oppo 105 and I also use an ASUS e403sa laptop with a Toshiba hard disk to feed the USB.  Originally the USB set-up was for playing ripped SACDs which could not be sent to the LKS through the Oppo.  But I got a lot of advice that the clocks on the Oppos are not really good and that I should get a better CD transporter for playing disks.  What I am doing instead is ripping all my CDs (a long and tedious project) to the hard disk and playing them through the USB where they are re-clocked by the very good clock on the Amanero.   I do think they sound better.  Since I eventually wanted to rip the CDs anyway, it was a no-brainer.



Lenny, I have all my stuff ripped to FLAC, so all I really need is a network player to feed the LKS.  I can live without playing my SACDs. I don't see many options for players, though.  It seems most players also have their own DACs, which drives up the cost unnecessarily.  The USBridge that several here recommend and use looks interesting, but I need to learn more about it - and I think I'd prefer to use coax between the player and DAC rather than USB with all its troubles.  

Now that you've had more time playing ripped files from your laptop, do you still think they sound better than spinning discs on the Oppo?

Thanks again!


----------



## Lennym (Nov 7, 2017)

For me, on my system, here's no question that using the lap-top for red book provides more low level information that provides spatial cues.  More depth, greater width, instrumental separation.  Of course the degree of improvement varies considerable with the recordings.  I use it with the USB cable that came with the LKS.  I actually tried a highly touted  solid silver cable (with return privilege) and it turned out to have a very gritty sound to my ears, so it went back.  The lap-top I use, which I originally bought for other purposes, may be a good performer for this use.  It's not very sophisticated, does not have a spinning hard disk (It uses SS little more sophisticated than a zip drive.) and goes 7-8 hours on battery which is how I use it playing music.  It seems dead quiet but I really don't know what high frequency noise it may be making.  I'm pretty satisfied.  Of course there's no comparison when playing ripped SACD through the LKS as compared to SACD disks through the Oppo.  That being said, I have no idea how a set-up using a dedicated music server of some sort would compare.  I've been reading about the less expensive options like Sotm and microRendu.  The USBridge is very inexpensive and seems to be sort of a computer CPU to which you have to add inputs and output: keyboard, screen, etc.  Very little info on the site.  I've written them for more info, but to no avail.  Perhaps someone who uses a USBridge could evaluate its sound and point us to a url where its use is explained in detail, Sparky, Raspberry Pi and all that stuff.

I'm sure others on this thread use music servers.  Maybe we will hear from them.  I'm, certainly open to trying something better. There are those who write that it's best to have all the music, CPM and DSD, to go in directly to I2S or through the coax.


----------



## Lennym

tracer5 said:


> The Allo USBridge consists of a Sparky SBC and a USBridge daughter board with USB connector. The USBridge reclocks the USB and reduces noise to a very low level, ideal for a USB DAC input. Music files can be on a hard drive or NAS. Players, software is Linux based distributions, DietPi or Volumio 2. I use a NAS and Volumio. Depending on the DAC DSD may be supported to DSD256 in the Linux environment.



Does the Allo USBridge work like a USB Regen?


----------



## Whitigir

I have tried Coax nd usb on 004, and it could be the source, or could be the implementation of the 004 or both.  I prefer the Coax input better than usb.  I tried usb with Wm1z and dock, then Dx200 Coax direct into 004.


----------



## littlexx26

anyone tried turn the vol of your amp to max with l.k.s.004 and play nothing? is your noise obvious? my one is quite obvious. if i switch to other vacant input in amp, much quieter.


----------



## Lennym

littlexx26 said:


> anyone tried turn the vol of your amp to max with l.k.s.004 and play nothing? is your noise obvious? my one is quite obvious. if i switch to other vacant input in amp, much quieter.



No such issue here, neither on USB nor on coax.


----------



## littlexx26

i just tried upsample to 48k 512. it plays normally but just showing un-lock. if play 44.1 512, it shows 512 as usual. any idea?


----------



## Whitigir

Does anyone has problem getting the BW lower to BW1 BW2 or BW5 ?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> anyone tried turn the vol of your amp to max with l.k.s.004 and play nothing? is your noise obvious? my one is quite obvious. if i switch to other vacant input in amp, much quieter.


I do not have such issues


----------



## bibo01

littlexx26 said:


> i just tried upsample to 48k 512. it plays normally but just showing un-lock. if play 44.1 512, it shows 512 as usual. any idea?


I cannot verify it because I haven't played DSD512 yet and I do not have the DAC at the moment.
It sounds like a firmware issue.
As you use HQPlayer like me (I 'm actually an official reseller for it), did you notice a SQ improvement going DSD128 -> 256 -> 512?


----------



## bibo01

Whitigir said:


> Does anyone has problem getting the BW lower to BW1 BW2 or BW5 ?


I have a problem at BW5 or lower only if I play DSD.
LKS suggests BW12.


----------



## Whitigir

bibo01 said:


> I have a problem at BW5 or lower only if I play DSD.
> LKS suggests BW12.



Exactly, and why is this ? Do we need new firmware or such ? Just wondering


----------



## littlexx26

yeh the one i bought my 004 told me anything stable at bw12 or higher is considered "pass".


----------



## bibo01

Whitigir said:


> Exactly, and why is this ? Do we need new firmware or such ? Just wondering


I doubt it. 
At higher frequency higher bandwidth is needed. BW1-5 is low bandwidth.


----------



## bibo01

littlexx26 said:


> yeh the one i bought my 004 told me anything stable at bw12 or higher is considered "pass".


What do you mean by "pass"?

At reply to my question - "Did you notice a SQ improvement going DSD128 -> 256 -> 512"?


----------



## Whitigir (Nov 22, 2017)

bibo01 said:


> I doubt it.
> At higher frequency higher bandwidth is needed. BW1-5 is low bandwidth.



Nope, the manual stated that the lower the number, the higher the bandwidth, and the more tolerances sensitivity the input signals are.  That means, the lower the number such as BW1-5 can only work with sources that generated the lowest number of errors, or has better details info retrieval at higher frequency like you said.  

The manual stated that the lower the number on the BW the better the sound


----------



## littlexx26

bibo01 said:


> What do you mean by "pass"?
> 
> At reply to my question - "Did you notice a SQ improvement going DSD128 -> 256 -> 512"?


I meam quality pass in the factory.
No so far i did not notice any difference when up to 512. But i will spend more time to listen seriouly.


----------



## limey

Currently using a Singxer Su-1 with a Gustard X20 pro using I2S. Anyone have the LKS DAC004  working with the SU-1 and is so what DIP switches needed to be turned on.


----------



## dcguy73

I bought this DAC blind a few months ago and have been pretty pleased with it so far. It is definitely not the most user-friendly DAC, but I think its build and performance are top-notch for the price.


----------



## Lennym

dcguy73 said:


> It is definitely not the most user-friendly DAC, but I think its build and performance are top-notch for the price.



What would make it more "user friendly" for you?  One thing I can think of is being able to set DPLL levels for PCM and DSD independently so that they switched automatically when the input did, the way the filters do

Any other suggestions?  Perhaps LKS could adopt some for its next edition.


----------



## dcguy73

Lennym said:


> What would make it more "user friendly" for you?  One thing I can think of is being able to set DPLL levels for PCM and DSD independently so that they switched automatically when the input did, the way the filters do
> 
> Any other suggestions?  Perhaps LKS could adopt some for its next edition.



Well, for starters, they could add a (mini?) USB port for firmware updates directly from a computer instead of requiring users to physically open up the DAC and update the firmware while the power is on. I've been too timid to do the firmware update, because I'm afraid I'll accidentally fry the DAC or myself.


----------



## Lennym

dcguy73 said:


> Well, for starters, they could add a (mini?) USB port for firmware updates directly from a computer instead of requiring users to physically open up the DAC and update the firmware while the power is on. I've been too timid to do the firmware update, because I'm afraid I'll accidentally fry the DAC or myself.



While that would be nice, my guess is that's not possible as the issue is with the Amanero board rather than with the DAC.  However, though inconvenient because you have to open up the unit, there is really no danger.  The boards (Amanero + power supply for it) are removed while the power is off.  While power is applied you only handle these boards away from the chassis  Only about 5 volts is applied to them.  Not much chance of frying anything.  Then it's power off again for replacing the boards.

Have you seen the detailed instructions originally prepared by LKS?  You can get them from LKS or you can PM me with an email address.


----------



## Whitigir

Exactly, that is the amenero board design, unless they design it into another Way that can permit easier firmware upgrade.  But at the moment, there is no such plan


----------



## aggielaw

Hi all.  My D004 will be here next week.  what recommendations do you have for feeding it - either specific units or general considerations?  As an example of general considerations, does the LKS have an input that sounds better or worse than the others (i ordered the version with the Amanero board)?  What issues with achieving DSD512 output do I need to think about?

Thanks again for your advice.


----------



## bibo01

aggielaw said:


> Hi all.  My D004 will be here next week.  what recommendations do you have for feeding it - either specific units or general considerations?  As an example of general considerations, does the LKS have an input that sounds better or worse than the others (i ordered the version with the Amanero board)?  What issues with achieving DSD512 output do I need to think about?
> 
> Thanks again for your advice.


I can do DSD5112, but my 004 has 2003be firmware on Amanero USB because I use it with Linux.
For upconverting to DSD512 you need a pretty fast i7 based PC. I use HQPlayer for playback.
I suggest filter at 70K and DPLL at 12 (you may try lower).


----------



## xiamen

Was using LKS on Windows 10 64 with Jriver upsampling everything to DSD512. In my experience, I can get stable playback at DPLL 10. What irks me is that I hear better sound when I put DPLL to 8 or even 9. May be it's just me and "placebo" effect, but I had switch over many times, and I always seems to hear quality differences. The problem at DPLL 8 (9 is better but still somewhat unstable) is I get hissing noise switching tracks especially between PCM files and DSD files. Also when I startup playing first track. Did try to get to Amanero to get a better version of firmware (2003be from what I read does not play native ASIO under Windows), but so far not getting anywhere. Have now switched to using Singxer SU-1 inputting via i2S HDMI to the LKS. I do hear improvement on the same DPLL compared to using Amanero. Again, not A/B test or anything scientific. May be just me wanting to hear those improvements after spending the money. Funny though, I thought with the SU-1, there is not that much difference between DPLL 8 to 10. For connecting SU-1 to LKS 004, turn SU-1 over and for the dip switches at bottom, switch 2 and 6 is on, the rest off. Also in my one off experience, the hdmi cable can make a big difference. I thought I use an Audioquest cable that I had for some time and it did not work well. What works better for me is a new and cheaper hdmi 2.0 cable. Make sure you keep a short one.


----------



## bibo01 (Dec 21, 2017)

xiamen said:


> Was using LKS on Windows 10 64 with Jriver upsampling everything to DSD512. In my experience, I can get stable playback at DPLL 10. What irks me is that I hear better sound when I put DPLL to 8 or even 9. May be it's just me and "placebo" effect, but I had switch over many times, and I always seems to hear quality differences. The problem at DPLL 8 (9 is better but still somewhat unstable) is I get hissing noise switching tracks especially between PCM files and DSD files. Also when I startup playing first track. Did try to get to Amanero to get a better version of firmware (2003be from what I read does not play native ASIO under Windows), but so far not getting anywhere. Have now switched to using Singxer SU-1 inputting via i2S HDMI to the LKS. I do hear improvement on the same DPLL compared to using Amanero. Again, not A/B test or anything scientific. May be just me wanting to hear those improvements after spending the money. Funny though, I thought with the SU-1, there is not that much difference between DPLL 8 to 10. For connecting SU-1 to LKS 004, turn SU-1 over and for the dip switches at bottom, switch 2 and 6 is on, the rest off. Also in my one off experience, the hdmi cable can make a big difference. I thought I use an Audioquest cable that I had for some time and it did not work well. What works better for me is a new and cheaper hdmi 2.0 cable. Make sure you keep a short one.


Yesterday I spoke to Domenico from Amanero. A new Windows driver compatible with 2003be is ready, but he is still going through some Microsoft bureaucracy before he can release it. BTW, he will probably release a new firmware as well to further refine 2003be.
Personally, I'm pretty happy with 2003be in Linux. I can playback at DSD256 and 512. I only get a random problem with the sound getting thinner, mostly at the higher frequency, without losing lock on the DAC. Domenico said it might be losing sync with oscillator - he will try to reproduce it.


----------



## aggielaw

Whitigir said:


> No it takes ...what, you meant Jansen caps now are replaced by Mundorf on your version ?


Just received my D004, and the remote does not work with a 2032 inserted.  I've tried the battery both ways. Can I get a confirmation that 2p3w is what others are using as well?

Thanks!  ☺


----------



## limey

aggielaw said:


> Just received my D004, and the remote does not work with a 2032 inserted.  I've tried the battery both ways. Can I get a confirmation that 2p3w is what others are using as well?
> 
> Thanks!  ☺


Yes - 2032 works OK - just install with the writing on the top.


----------



## aggielaw (Dec 30, 2017)

Hm.  Unless I misread your post, I have a defective remote.  No light comes on when I push any button on the remote, and nothing happens on the LKS unit.


----------



## limey

aggielaw said:


> Hm.  Unless I misread your post, I have a defective remote.  No light comes on when I push any button on the remote, and nothing happens on the LKS unit.


Looking at your photo it looks like you may have bent the pins on the left. They need to be in contact with the top of the battery while the pins underneath will contact the bottom.


----------



## Lennym

I think Limey is correct.  Here's a pictre showing the two "pins" clearly.  IIRC you have to slip the battery in from right to left.


----------



## aggielaw

Thanks guys!  I looked closely at the pins and realized the left side pins have tiny "heads" pointing down, while the right side's heads point up.  They should really put this in the manual.


----------



## aggielaw

So, I picked up an ultrarendu wtih Sbooster BOTW power supply over the holidays and I'm breaking the UR in while getting more hours on the LKS (which is only at about 120 hours right now).  This combination currently sounds edgy at best, and bright at worst.  Vocals are too far forward relative to most other music, and as was the case when I had an Oppo 103 feeding the LKS, some frequencies are emphasized while others are significantly deemphasized.  The PRaT is a bit slow, too.

Will these issues likely resolve after a couple hundred hours, or have I purcahsed myself a poor match of components?  Apologies in advance for the potential landmine here, but how likely is it an aftermarket USB cable woudl help?

Thanks!


----------



## Lennym

Just to narrow down the issues.  You haven't given us your initial reaction to substituting the LKS for whatever DAC you were using before.  I assume you were using the spdif input.  Were you generally happy, satisfied?  Well to know that the main DAC was working well.

Using the USB is another complication.  Have you tried running a file in directly from a computer?  Did it work reasonably well, as the spdif?  If it's Windows you'll have to install a driver.  If so the problem has to be addressed to Sonore.

If not, you want to make certain that the firmware is up to date.  I don't know how to do that.  Perhaps the factory can advise.   When I had a performance issue the factory just told me to update the firmware and sent me instructions.  It's worked fine ever since.  I suspect you may get the same advice. 

Having made certain that the DAC is working well and that the Amanero board is working well and up to date your next step may be contacting support at Sonore.  There is no reason that the UltraRendu should not work well with the board. There's not likely to be a compatibility issue with a USB input.

Just for the record I am running a laptop directly into the Amanero with PCM and DSD files.  It sounds very good, but I'm certain it can be improved and I am considering a reclocker like the ifi micro USB.  I will, though, watch what you have to say about the Rendu.


----------



## aggielaw

It's tough to assess my own reaction, because I took my Modwright Oppo 105 out of my system to sell it and have been using my Modwright Oppo 95, which has a warm, meaty signature to it.  It seems I'm going from one end of the spectrum to the other.  The 105 did not have perfect tonal balance, but was much closer than the uR/LKS combo right now.  I still don't have 150 hours on the LKS and less than 100 on the ultraRendu.

I tremendously enjoyed the Modwright efforts.  However, despite trying several tube-based products over the years I have found I simply have a bias against them.  The details of that aren't important, and I know I'm being close-minded despite a very positive experience with tubes in my last four CD players, but it is what it is.  I don't want tubes in my system (for now).  What I do want is ruthless accuracy and detail, tonal balance, and a huge soundstage in all dimensions if the recording supports it.  

I believe Dan Wright of Modwright only modifies the analog output on CDPs, so I believe I was listening to the stock digital output via SPDIF on the Oppo.  I've noticed that the Oppo 103 in my home theater lacked mid-bass when I tried it in my stereo a couple years ago, so the lack of mid-bass with the Modwright Oppo 95 did not surprise me.  I did not expect this to be a problem with the uR, as I thought this was merely a shortcoming in the two-channel performance of the Oppo, but I hear the same thing with the uR.  I'm also getting less punch on the very bottom, vocals stand WAY out from the rest of the music, and certain other frequencies stand out as well.  I'll have to make notes next time I listen to explain what they are.  Usually I can solve the vocals by toeing my speakers out, but I'm not sure that would work, and if it did work, I suspect it would cause other issues.

Here's an interesting phenomenon I've never experienced before: I always feel compelled to turn the volume up.  However, once I turn the volume up to where that compulsion diminishes my ears start bleeding from the brightness.  I don't know what to make of it, but I'm interested to hear others' experiences with this phenomenon, what causes it, and how they solved it.  I'm confident this is somewhat common with all kinds of gear.

I'll look in to the firmware issue.  If Small Green Computer shipped me an ultraRendu without the latest firmware, though, I'm gonna be a tad grumpy. :|

Finally, I've seen few posts about which filter and DPLL setting folks are settling on for either PCM or DSD playback.  I'd appreciate seeing what others like. I've listened extensively to BW01, 07, and 12.  I like 07 the best, I think, and if I can get the brightness and lack of tonal balance solved I think this will be the right balance of the BW offerings for me.  I hear less difference in the filters than the bandwidth, but I think that will change as I get the other things dialed in.  I've only played about 30 minutes of upsampled music to DSD, so I haven't really had a chance to listen to the different DSD filters yet.

Ah, I missed your question about playing directly from a computer.  Unfortunately, both my laptops were bricked during failed Win10 updates, and I don't know how to unbrick them without losing everything on the hard drive, so I'm unable to try a laptop to the LKS.  I could use my wife's old computer and run SPDIF out from the motherboard, but that will be an evening's endeavor, so I'll try that as a last resort.

Thanks again for your thoughts and advice!


----------



## Lennym

Just to establish a baseline, if you play what you know to be a very fine CD through the Oppo 95 and out by spdif to the LKS do you like what you hear?  Of course it will be different than the Modwrighted Oppo, but it probably should have far more spatial cues.  Playing with the filters may help attain what you are looking for.*  Since you write that you now prefer good solid state the result should be VERY pleasing.  If not there's a problem with the DAC.  If so there's a problem either with the Amanero or the uR.

Again, base-lining, sending in a PCM file by USB from a computer should tell you if the Amanero board is working correctly.  The result should be at least as good as the same CD IMO, probably better.

By the way, as I understand it the DPLL setting should be as low as possible for best results.  I use BW01 for PCM files and BW06 or 07 for .dsf files.


*See: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-48


----------



## xiamen

aggielaw said:


> It's tough to assess my own reaction, because I took my Modwright Oppo 105 out of my system to sell it and have been using my Modwright Oppo 95, which has a warm, meaty signature to it.  It seems I'm going from one end of the spectrum to the other.  The 105 did not have perfect tonal balance, but was much closer than the uR/LKS combo right now.  I still don't have 150 hours on the LKS and less than 100 on the ultraRendu.
> 
> I tremendously enjoyed the Modwright efforts.  However, despite trying several tube-based products over the years I have found I simply have a bias against them.  The details of that aren't important, and I know I'm being close-minded despite a very positive experience with tubes in my last four CD players, but it is what it is.  I don't want tubes in my system (for now).  What I do want is ruthless accuracy and detail, tonal balance, and a huge soundstage in all dimensions if the recording supports it.
> 
> ...



Don't have an ultraRendu, so take my comment with a grain of salt. As I understand it, ultraRendu runs on Linux. The stock firmware for Amanero Combo384 (USB implementation in LKS MH-DA004) is more geared towards Windows. So you may look at flashing it to their latest firmware more geared for linux (https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd/issues/12). This is not a particularly straight forward exercise to re-flesh the firmware as far as I know ..... Have not done it myself, so all care and no responsibility. Not saying it will fix your problem, but probably worth a try, and the new linux firmware also allow you to play DSD512, the stock firmware not. Do you have the upgraded Amanero board for your lks or just the basic one. If it's just the basic, that may be part of the reason it's not as good as you expect (using the spdif input into lks may be a better option). The other area I would look at is the usb cable you are using to connect Ultrarendu to the LKS. I was using a pretty good pure silver usb cable that I thought give pretty good results. Then I switch over to the Mercury 3.0 USB cable. Was hoping rather than expecting but pleasantly surprised. Very expensive cable but since I spent load of money already, what's another few hundred dollars. 

I do question you using Oppo 95 as the source for this combination. You can just output oppo directly to pre-amplifier, not sure if it's worth the while to go via complicated usb route for the whole thing. I feel with your setup, you should look at the UltraRendu as a Roon endpoint.


----------



## dcguy73

Hey, I have owned the LKS MH-DA004 since last fall and I have noticed that it doesn't seem to mate well with my iFi iCan Pro amp.  The sound lacks dynamics and it's a lot less detailed than I'd like it to be. I have read on this forum that the iCan Pro can be very revealing with a good source, so I don't think the amp is at fault. I'm not sure if the LKS DAC is the weak link in my chain or if it's the interconnect between the LKS and iCan Pro

Admittedly, I'm using a lower-end XLR interconnect between the LKS and the iCan Pro -- a Pangea Audio Premier SE. I've been thinking that if I obtain a silver-based interconnect that it would be much more revealing than my current cable.

Have any other LKS owners tried a silver (or other type of revealing) interconnect between the DAC and their amp and found that it improves the sound?


----------



## aggielaw

This is very interesting to me.  My unit is extremely detailed - in fact, on the scale from "lush and organic" to "dry and detailed" I have found the LKS to peg out the "dry and detailed" end of the spectrum.  It also runs a bit "hot" in the sense that there seems to be a dip in the mid-bass region and a hump in the vocal/lead guitar region.  I use Roon's parabolic equalizer to even the frequency response out.  While I haven't perfected the equalizer settings to my liking yet, the equalizer works well with no audible deleterious effect on detail to my ears.

One caveat is that my unit was modifed by Ric Schultz at EVS, so it has a much-upgraded power supply and a few other improvements.  I'm also using a Sbooster power supply with the 9v connector.  Nevertheless, I think the lack of detail you are experience is contrary to most folks' experience here, which might indicate something is going on besides your cables.  As for cables, I use pro audio XLR cables from the LKS to my preamp: http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=53. (Unlike the Mogami cables I tried, these give a neutral, full-spectrum transmission; the Mogamis were very vocal band-centric, which is not surprisingly considering these are "microphone" cables.)

I'd be interested in a couple things: first, what power supply are you using with the LKS; and second, what happens if you run either your Aries Mini or your EE CDP directly to the LKS?


----------



## dcguy73

aggielaw said:


> This is very interesting to me.  My unit is extremely detailed - in fact, on the scale from "lush and organic" to "dry and detailed" I have found the LKS to peg out the "dry and detailed" end of the spectrum.  It also runs a bit "hot" in the sense that there seems to be a dip in the mid-bass region and a hump in the vocal/lead guitar region.  I use Roon's parabolic equalizer to even the frequency response out.  While I haven't perfected the equalizer settings to my liking yet, the equalizer works well with no audible deleterious effect on detail to my ears.
> 
> One caveat is that my unit was modifed by Ric Schultz at EVS, so it has a much-upgraded power supply and a few other improvements.  I'm also using a Sbooster power supply with the 9v connector.  Nevertheless, I think the lack of detail you are experience is contrary to most folks' experience here, which might indicate something is going on besides your cables.  As for cables, I use pro audio XLR cables from the LKS to my preamp: http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=53. (Unlike the Mogami cables I tried, these give a neutral, full-spectrum transmission; the Mogamis were very vocal band-centric, which is not surprisingly considering these are "microphone" cables.)
> 
> I'd be interested in a couple things: first, what power supply are you using with the LKS; and second, what happens if you run either your Aries Mini or your EE CDP directly to the LKS?



I am using the LKS DAC's built-in power supply, with a good power cable. I wasn't aware it was possible to power it externally. I tried running my Aries Mini directly to the DAC via USB. It sounded about the same. I have the upgraded USB option for the DAC. I plugged my EE CDP into the LKS via coxial cable. It sounded a little punchier than the sound I get from the Aries Mini-Galvanic 3.0-Singxer-DAC chain. I tried removing the Galvanic from the chain, then the SIngxer, then adding just the SIngxer back, then adding the Galvanic back. I didn't notice a huge difference from those changes either. I still suspect that adding a more-revealing interconnect between the DAC and the amp would help. Or maybe the Aries mini is not a good source? I have the add-on linear power supply that goes with it.

So you got your DAC modded by RS and it still needs an equalizer to make it sound okay? Doesn't sound like a huge upgrade to me. I was wary of getting any upgrades done until I got used to the sound of the original.


----------



## aggielaw

Ah, I had a brain fart.  I was thinking about the external PS on my ultrarendu.  Sorry about that.  Maybe a different cable will help.  I'm using a Stealth Dream power cord for the LKS, and that may have an impact as well.

As for the mods, I suspected they wouldn't perfect the sound *in my listening environment.*  You see, Ric is a headphone guy, and I'm a speaker guy.  Different worlds.  Also, bear in mind that I'm coming from a Modwright Oppo unit, so I'm accustomed to a much warmer sound, although that is not my preference.  I can't comment on how the mods changed the sound because I had the unit shipped from the manufacturer to EVS.  I will say this, though: I've never heard such a huge soundstage in all my years in the hobby.  How much of that is attributable to the LKS, the mods, or the ultraRendu I don't know.  But it is truly amazing - particularly the height of the image now.  

I bought an XLO USB cable from another local audiophile, and that flattened the tonal balance considerably, but it also shrunk the soundstage by a fair margin in all directions as part of a more coherent presentation.  While pleasing to the ears, I decided I couldn't give up such an amazing soundstage for the gains the XLO gave me.  

Your experience mirrors mine with punchy bottom.  Running the Modwright Oppo to the LKS via coax yielded some super tight, punchy bass.  The uR via USB is good, too, but the Oppo via coax was "punch you in your face" percussive. Will Smith's "Miami" and similar tracks never sounded so good!  Of course, it was overkill on most recordings, and served to mask what I perceived to be weak mid-bass.  

Also, I only have 150 hours on the uR and the LKS.  I wonder if it will change a bit more with another 50-100 hours on it.

I hate to point a finger at the Aries Mini, as that's a well-reviewed product, but I think it's worth looking around some of the digital-oriented fora to see what folks say the difference is between the Mini and the Aries LE and other comparable streamers.  It may be that a jump in streamer quality provides you exactly what you're looking for.

In any case, thanks for continuing to share your thoughts and findings with us!


----------



## dcguy73 (Jan 30, 2018)

aggielaw said:


> Ah, I had a brain fart.  I was thinking about the external PS on my ultrarendu.  Sorry about that.  Maybe a different cable will help.  I'm using a Stealth Dream power cord for the LKS, and that may have an impact as well.
> 
> As for the mods, I suspected they wouldn't perfect the sound *in my listening environment.*  You see, Ric is a headphone guy, and I'm a speaker guy.  Different worlds.  Also, bear in mind that I'm coming from a Modwright Oppo unit, so I'm accustomed to a much warmer sound, although that is not my preference.  I can't comment on how the mods changed the sound because I had the unit shipped from the manufacturer to EVS.  I will say this, though: I've never heard such a huge soundstage in all my years in the hobby.  How much of that is attributable to the LKS, the mods, or the ultraRendu I don't know.  But it is truly amazing - particularly the height of the image now.
> 
> ...



Wow, that Stealth Dream power cable is an extremely expensive model. I can't afford that level of audiophile cables.  I use PS Audio power cables, which are a lot more affordable. Edit

As per your suggestion, I have decided to upgrade my source from the Aries Mini streamer (which mates very nicely with my RME ADI-2 Pro amp/DAC, just not with the LKS/iCan Pro combo) to an Euphony Audio PTS server. Hopefully this will improve my system's sound quality. I'll report back after I get the PTS and incorporate it into my system.


----------



## dcguy73 (Feb 1, 2018)

[EDIT: Whoops! Posted this in the wrong forum! Too many DACs!]


----------



## dcguy73

This has been bugging me for a while...is anyone else still experiencing bursts of static/noise when playing DSD through the LKS MH-DA004 DAC, or were you able to figure out a fix? I have tried adjusting the DPLL bandwidth from BW01 up to BW07 and higher, but I still get static at the start of every track. I'm using an Aries Mini streamer (Linux-based) controlled by an iPad, with USB audio out going to my Singxer SU-1 to be converted into I2S and sent to the LKS DAC. 

Thanks for any advice you can give!


----------



## Lennym

It probably doesn't help you, but at BW07 I have absolutely silent results using the upgrade Amanero board.  For DSD I play mostly ripped SACD (.dsf) files using a relatively simple ASUS laptop.  Music is on a portable hard drive.  I run JRiver and control from my phone.  Recently scored a used Intona that cleans up the sound just a bit.  Pretty simple set-up and great sound.  All of which is to say that it can be done.

Don't know much about the Singxer or the Aires.  But, of course the Amanero goes into the I2S, not unlike the Singxer, but more directly.


----------



## littlexx26

dcguy73 said:


> This has been bugging me for a while...is anyone else still experiencing bursts of static/noise when playing DSD through the LKS MH-DA004 DAC, or were you able to figure out a fix? I have tried adjusting the DPLL bandwidth from BW01 up to BW07 and higher, but I still get static at the start of every track. I'm using an Aries Mini streamer (Linux-based) controlled by an iPad, with USB audio out going to my Singxer SU-1 to be converted into I2S and sent to the LKS DAC.
> 
> Thanks for any advice you can give!


Please check if any other source of interference, such as TV antenna cable, close to the dac


----------



## xiamen

dcguy73 said:


> This has been bugging me for a while...is anyone else still experiencing bursts of static/noise when playing DSD through the LKS MH-DA004 DAC, or were you able to figure out a fix? I have tried adjusting the DPLL bandwidth from BW01 up to BW07 and higher, but I still get static at the start of every track. I'm using an Aries Mini streamer (Linux-based) controlled by an iPad, with USB audio out going to my Singxer SU-1 to be converted into I2S and sent to the LKS DAC.
> 
> Thanks for any advice you can give!


i have usb to singxer to lks as well. have come across the hiss problem but usally only switching different format tracks. higher dpll solve the problem for me. fine at dpll 9. i use a diy htpc as source. fairly high end: streacom fc10 fanless case, hd-plex linear psu, haswell i7 65w. need the power to upsample everything to dsd512 on the fly using jriver. if only dsd64, i think can play at lower dpll. also dsd over dop seems to "fix" hiss problem a bit. other things to watch out is latest version of singxer su-1 firmware can be different for different dacs. from memory for lks its 2.20 not 2.22. on jriver increase buffer size may be to max. also i notice on htpc, cpu power has some effect on hiss and may be even sound quality. but that's probably because i am heavy into dsd upsampling.


----------



## Lennym

dcguy73 said:


> This has been bugging me for a while...is anyone else still experiencing bursts of static/noise when playing DSD through the LKS MH-DA004 DAC, or were you able to figure out a fix? I have tried adjusting the DPLL bandwidth from BW01 up to BW07 and higher, but I still get static at the start of every track. I'm using an Aries Mini streamer (Linux-based) controlled by an iPad, with USB audio out going to my Singxer SU-1 to be converted into I2S and sent to the LKS DAC.
> 
> Thanks for any advice you can give!



In the da003 thread there is the suggestion of an incompatibility between the Singxer and the da003 and da004.  See the Post #729 and the earlier one it refers to.


----------



## dcguy73

Lennym said:


> In the da003 thread there is the suggestion of an incompatibility between the Singxer and the da003 and da004.  See the Post #729 and the earlier one it refers to.



Thanks for the tip.


----------



## xiamen

Lennym said:


> In the da003 thread there is the suggestion of an incompatibility between the Singxer and the da003 and da004.  See the Post #729 and the earlier one it refers to.





Lennym said:


> In the da003 thread there is the suggestion of an incompatibility between the Singxer and the da003 and da004.  See the Post #729 and the earlier one it refers to.


That happens when you use the wrong Singxer firmware. Gustard used v2.22 whereas you need v2.20 to get correct dsd mapping on lks.


----------



## dcguy73

xiamen said:


> That happens when you use the wrong Singxer firmware. Gustard used v2.22 whereas you need v2.20 to get correct dsd mapping on lks.



Where can I get the 2.20 firmware?


----------



## xiamen

dcguy73 said:


> Where can I get the 2.20 firmware?



Singxer's website doesn't have much support information (nor has LKS or Amanero for that matter). You can get downloads including firmware from https://download.shenzhenaudio.com/Singxer/. Firmwares are in sub-folder "OLD". Installation instruction is straight forward but as far as I know need windows PC. And you can only start this using an old version of driver (V3.20) installation. After updating firmware, you can then upgrade windows driver to the latest DSD512 version, but you cannot initiate firmware upgrade from the new dsd512 driver. Not sure if the driver can be used for linux (or if linux needs driver at all).


----------



## dcguy73

xiamen said:


> Singxer's website doesn't have much support information (nor has LKS or Amanero for that matter). You can get downloads including firmware from https://download.shenzhenaudio.com/Singxer/. Firmwares are in sub-folder "OLD". Installation instruction is straight forward but as far as I know need windows PC. And you can only start this using an old version of driver (V3.20) installation. After updating firmware, you can then upgrade windows driver to the latest DSD512 version, but you cannot initiate firmware upgrade from the new dsd512 driver. Not sure if the driver can be used for linux (or if linux needs driver at all).



I flashed the 2.20 firmware again, but that wasn't the issue. It turns out that I didn't have the DIP switches set correctly for the Singxer's I2S output to work with the LKS DAC. D'oh! That should have been obvious to me. Now the Singxer/LKS I2S connection sounds a lot punchier and cleaner than it did before, and I'm able to control the static/noise when using DSD files through the Singxer/LKS by setting the DPLL to BW07. No more static.

Whew! My faith in the LKS DAC is restored.


----------



## dcguy73 (Feb 19, 2018)

Today I placed four isolation feet (can't remember the brand because I got them a long time ago) under the LKS DAC on top of a bamboo butcher block resting on my audio rack. The changes made a small but noticeable difference. The sound tightened up a little in the treble and midbass, and even more in the bass. I didn't think vibration control would make a difference in the performance of such a solidly-built and heavy component, but it did.  YMMV, of course.


----------



## aggielaw

dcguy73 said:


> Today I placed four isolation feet (can't remember the brand because I got them a long time ago) under the LKS DAC on top of a bamboo butcher block resting on my audio rack. The changes made a small but noticeable difference. The sound tightened up a little in the treble and midbass, and even more in the bass. I didn't think vibration control would make a difference in the performance of such a solidly-built and heavy component, but it did.  YMMV, of course.



Very glad to hear of your findings.  I use a commercial isolation platform made by a currently-defunct company called Appogg Audio out of Austin, Texas, and I have not experienced the bloated bass that many here have mentioned.  Now, how much of this is due to EVS modifications and how much is due to the isolation platform will be an interesting future experiment.  My shelf is made of one and a half inch thick solid maple.  Maple is said to impart a warmth to the sound, so I'm looking forward to testing this when I have some time to do so next month.

In addition to tightening up the sound, did you find frequency response changed at all?


----------



## aggielaw

I also want to take a quick moment to mention I am trying a Synergistic Red fuse in the IEC terminal.  With about 50 hours on it, I find that the soundstage is smaller in all directions, but the presentation is a bit more musical (read: less edgy, but not really more organic) than with the stock fuse.  This was a similar experience to what I had when I substituted the stock USB cable with a high-end XLO cable.

I can't get past the amazing soundstage the LKS throws with the stock cable and fuse, so I will probably continue to use those.  I will give the Synergistic Red a little more time, though.

I hope this is helpful to other owners.

Cheers!


----------



## aggielaw

@dcguy73, I meant to tell you my first reaction to your post was, "Uh oh, now he's done it.  He's opened Pandora's Box to the world of isolation, coupling, and the effect of footers on his gear!"

Welcome, and I'm sorry.


----------



## dcguy73

aggielaw said:


> Very glad to hear of your findings.  I use a commercial isolation platform made by a currently-defunct company called Appogg Audio out of Austin, Texas, and I have not experienced the bloated bass that many here have mentioned.  Now, how much of this is due to EVS modifications and how much is due to the isolation platform will be an interesting future experiment.  My shelf is made of one and a half inch thick solid maple.  Maple is said to impart a warmth to the sound, so I'm looking forward to testing this when I have some time to do so next month.
> 
> In addition to tightening up the sound, did you find frequency response changed at all?



I'm not sure if it changed the frequency response or not. I'm just satisfied that it improved the sound a little. It's too much of a pain to remove both of them and then test the DAC without them because it's difficult to access the back of my rack without accidentally pulling cables out.

The isolation feet were basically free since I bought them years ago, and I bought the butcher block from IKEA for $15 (http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00233429/). It's not solid bamboo, but a three-layer sandwich. There are raves for it as a cheap audiophile upgrade on multiple forums and sites, but I went by this post: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/ikea_aptitlig.htm. So it was a cost-effective upgrade!


----------



## dcguy73

aggielaw said:


> @dcguy73, I meant to tell you my first reaction to your post was, "Uh oh, now he's done it.  He's opened Pandora's Box to the world of isolation, coupling, and the effect of footers on his gear!"
> 
> Welcome, and I'm sorry.



Heh heh, thanks. I've been very slow to move into isolation tweaks. I actually purchased a pair of 4-pack Audioquest Q sorbothane feet months ago, but I've been afraid to use them because they can leave visible marks on the surfaces they come in contact with. I tried using them encased in plastic wrap, but that kind of defeats the purpose of coupling them to my equipment.


----------



## rettib2001

Hi,

I'm about to pull the trigger on this DAC but wanted to check with current owners to see if they are still happy with it now that the initial hype has rolled-off a bit?

Ultimately I'll also purchase the LKS 100 usb to make use of the I2S HDMI connection.

The only other DAC I've been considering is the new Chord Qutest which is at a similar price point but a completely different sound signature (I imagine).

Anyway thanks in feedback/guidance you can offer.


----------



## Lennym

I don't know what "hype" you are talking about.  There has never been any hype.  The LKS is almost unknown and unpromoted anywhere.

Yes, it's still fine.

If you get the upgraded USB board which most of us do, the LKS 100 would be redundant.  The USB board makes the USB to I2S connection internally.


----------



## rettib2001

Lennym said:


> I don't know what "hype" you are talking about.  There has never been any hype.  The LKS is almost unknown and unpromoted anywhere.
> 
> Yes, it's still fine.
> 
> If you get the upgraded USB board which most of us do, the LKS 100 would be redundant.  The USB board makes the USB to I2S connection internally.



Perhaps hype was the wrong term, "enthusiasm" would have been more appropriate. 

That's good to know about the LKS 100 not being needed if you have the upgraded USB board.


----------



## dcguy73

rettib2001 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm about to pull the trigger on this DAC but wanted to check with current owners to see if they are still happy with it now that the initial hype has rolled-off a bit?
> 
> ...



What does the rest of your audio setup consist of? That would be helpful to know.


----------



## rettib2001

dcguy73 said:


> What does the rest of your audio setup consist of? That would be helpful to know.



You're absolutely right, the connected equipment is going to play a significant role in how well the DAC sits within my setup,  I was just trying to gauge if people were (in general) still happy with their purchases that's why I didn't go into too much detail.

My setup is mostly from an english company called  NVA, it consists of two mono block ss amps that are very transparent and a passive preamp from the same company. At the moment this is driving a pair of Guru QM10 speakers and the digital transport consists of an allo usbridge going into a Chord Mojo.


----------



## dcguy73 (Feb 28, 2018)

rettib2001 said:


> You're absolutely right, the connected equipment is going to play a significant role in how well the DAC sits within my setup,  I was just trying to gauge if people were (in general) still happy with their purchases that's why I didn't go into too much detail.



So you don't use headphones in your setup?


----------



## rettib2001

dcguy73 said:


> So you don't use headphones in your setup?



End of my message got cutoff.

I use two pairs of headphones, moded Fostex Thx00 and HD800.
I've strayed away from iems but I have a pair of Westone ESE5 that I use from time to time.


----------



## dcguy73 (Feb 28, 2018)

rettib2001 said:


> End of my message got cutoff.
> 
> I use two pairs of headphones, moded Fostex Thx00 and HD800.
> I've strayed away from iems but I have a pair of Westone ESE5 that I use from time to time.



Overall, I think the LKS DAC is extremely well-built, accurate, and competitive for the money. The lack of a USA dealer for LKS is a drawback, but probably also makes the DAC less costly.

A characterization of the general sound of the LKS that I agree with: @aggielaw said on the previous page, "My unit is extremely detailed -- in fact, on the scale from 'lush and organic' to 'dry and detailed,' I have found the LKS to peg out the 'dry and detailed' end of the spectrum." Granted, he is using a modded LKS DAC, but I think the same holds for unmodded LKS DACs as well. If you are looking for a warm and lush sound from your DAC, the LKS is not for you.

But my advice would be not to rely on Head-Fiers' counsel, though much of it is good -- I would check in with NVA as to what DACs they recommend that have good synergy with their products, since you own their preamp and amp.

That's my two cents.


----------



## rettib2001

dcguy73 said:


> Overall, I think the LKS DAC is extremely well-built, accurate, and competitive for the money.
> 
> A characterization of the general sound of the LKS that I agree with: @aggielaw said on the previous page, "My unit is extremely detailed -- in fact, on the scale from 'lush and organic' to 'dry and detailed,' I have found the LKS to peg out the 'dry and detailed' end of the spectrum." Granted, he is using a modded LKS DAC, but I think the same holds for unmodded LKS DACs as well. If you are looking for a warm and lush sound from your DAC, then the LKS is not for you.
> 
> ...



Thanks for taking the time to write that.

I'm not averse to a dry and detailed sound, especially for headphone listening but I agree with your advice about checking compatability with NVA.

The aim is to remove my Chord Mojo from desktop duties as it's showing its limitations but I'll have to buy a new headphone amp as well, which introduces a second decision making process.

All part of the fun though.


----------



## Lennym (Feb 28, 2018)

I disagree that the LKS has a "dry" sound.  I was principally a vinyl guy.  I couldn't listen to the well reviewed digital (Oppo, Lavry) that I had for very long before longing again for my vinyl.   So I looked for something more ambitious.  My set up is mainly solid state, but my phono preamp is all tubes, three stages of tubes.  My vinyl is not "dry".  I find the LKS very competitive with my vinyl.  In fact I have many digital duplicates of my old classic classical vinyl disks.  While  not identical, the SQ is pretty close and sometimes the LKS is better.  And yes, plenty of detail and other low level information.  I feel I have hit the jackpot with this LKS.  Most of my listening is by ripped CDs and SACDs on a portable HD through a laptop running JRiver by USB to the Amanero board.

On one of the forums I follow, a member has ditched his Chord DAVE for the LKS.  On another a member has ditched his Yggdrasil for it.

I cannot not be convinced that the "commercial" mods do very much for the LKS 004.  It's not like the entire analog section is changed like on the Oppo mods which have been quite popular, or that the power supply was enlarged in any serious way.

Just for the record, I don't listen on head phones.  I'm here because LKS is discussed here.


----------



## xiamen

Lennym said:


> I disagree that the LKS has a "dry" sound.  I was principally a vinyl guy.  I couldn't listen to the well reviewed digital (Oppo, Lavry) that I had for very long before longing again for my vinyl.   So I looked for something more ambitious.  My set up is mainly solid state, but my phono preamp is all tubes, three stages of tubes.  My vinyl is not "dry".  I find the LKS very competitive with my vinyl.  In fact I have many digital duplicates of my old classic classical vinyl disks.  While  not identical, the SQ is pretty close and sometimes the LKS is better.  And yes, plenty of detail and other low level information.  I feel I have hit the jackpot with this LKS.  Most of my listening is by ripped CDs and SACDs on a portable HD through a laptop running JRiver by USB to the Amanero board.
> 
> On one of the forums I follow, a member has ditched his Chord DAVE for the LKS.  On another a member has ditched his Yggdrasil for it.
> 
> ...



The "vinyl" or analog sound captures the whole sound wave and theoretically is more detailed than a digital recording. I believe it's the richness of the sound that makes it "warm". So IMHO, warm and detail are not mutually exclusive. Usually, it's bad pressing or worn record and/or equipment such as stylus that makes it fuzzy. I'm going down the pcm-dsd path http://archimago.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html to try to get the best of both world. It's to my taste but I know a lot of people don't like that.


----------



## dcguy73

Lennym said:


> I disagree that the LKS has a "dry" sound.  I was principally a vinyl guy.  I couldn't listen to the well reviewed digital (Oppo, Lavry) that I had for very long before longing again for my vinyl.   So I looked for something more ambitious.  My set up is mainly solid state, but my phono preamp is all tubes, three stages of tubes.  My vinyl is not "dry".  I find the LKS very competitive with my vinyl.  In fact I have many digital duplicates of my old classic classical vinyl disks.  While  not identical, the SQ is pretty close and sometimes the LKS is better.  And yes, plenty of detail and other low level information.  I feel I have hit the jackpot with this LKS.  Most of my listening is by ripped CDs and SACDs on a portable HD through a laptop running JRiver by USB to the Amanero board.
> 
> On one of the forums I follow, a member has ditched his Chord DAVE for the LKS.  On another a member has ditched his Yggdrasil for it.
> 
> ...



I guess we hear the LKS DAC's sound differently. Hmm...I wonder if there's an advantage to using the LKS DAC with speakers vs using it with headphones.


----------



## aggielaw

FWIW, I don't use headphones either.

The digital side of my system:

ultraRendu
LKS MH-D004
SMc Audio VRE-1C
SMc Audio DNA-125 with all mods
Ridge Street Audio Sason speakers
Stealth dream power cords
Gabriel Gold XLR and Canare XLR interconnects


----------



## Lennym (Mar 1, 2018)

dcguy73 said:


> I guess we hear the LKS DAC's sound differently. Hmm...I wonder if there's an advantage to using the LKS DAC with speakers vs using it with headphones.



No, I don't think so.  The LKS matches the general sound of my other system front ends, most notably that of my vinyl.  So I consider it to be neutral.  I think my Oppo 105 was slightly on the "thin" side of neutral; some might call that "dry.".  Now the Oppo is only used to feed the LKS, and then only for videos.

So from my point of view it's not speakers v. headphones.  If you find the LKS, "to peg out the 'dry and detailed' end of the spectrum." you might want to look elsewhere in the system.  It is detailed, but like at a live concert, it doesn't have to be "dry" to be detailed.  If the LKS were "dry" it would not have achieved the (admittedly limited) accolades that it has.

It could be system synergy, or the lack if it.  Do you have other sources to compare?


----------



## aggielaw (Mar 2, 2018)

Lenny,

I disagree with the idea that "dry and detailed" is a bad thing, and that the LKS would not be as popular as it is if it were so.  As a guy who doesn't listen seriously through headphones, but who owns some nice mid-level cans, the headphone world breaks up neatly in to two parts for me: those that artificially boost the bass and/or midbass, and those that do not.  While you may listen through cans that are tonally neutral, many do not.  More, many "headphone guys" own multiple pairs of cans because they change the character of the sound, and they can easily switch cans to achieve whichever flavor they would like to hear at that time or with that genre of music.  Consequently, I think a dry, detailed unit like the LKS is exactly the kind of product that would be raved about in headphone circles.  If you want the sound romanticized for you, you have a pair of cans that will do that, and without making the sound dark or muddy.  If you want detail and honesty you have a different set of cans for that, and the LKS will give you all you want of that.

I'm interested to see your system.  Would you mind laying it out in a post or pointing me to post where you listed it out?

I have not tried running any of the three CD players I am grossly derelict in selling (because I enjoy all three so much) through the LKS, but I'm happy to try it and report back to the group.   

As you can see from my prior post, there is nothing else in my chain that anyone anywhere has ever characterized as lean, thin, or bright. I should mention that I failed to include the dual Rhythmik F12 subs I use for my stereo, which I have crossed over at about 55Hz to help my Sasons' 7" woofer with the very bottom.

Finally, nothing in this post is intended to be snarky or pejorative to anyone or any gear.  I'm particularly thinking of my note about owners having multiple pairs of cans that present different sonic signatures.  Over the last few years my thinking on enjoying music, developed over 30 years of following the "audiophile" hobby, has changed dramatically.  The more I learned about audio (studio) engineering, the gear studios use, and the different philosophies of the world's best audio engineers, the more I realized that all the audiophile talk about any number of topics is simply laughable.  For example, five years ago I never would have considered using an equalizer.  I believed the silly notion that somehow you got less "fidelity" with each additional component, cable, or tweak.  Today I realize the sound on any recording is not "absolute truth" because the equipment used in the studio influences how the recording sounds, as does the mixing and mastering of the engineer.  This realization allows me to go in to Roon and play with all kinds of settings, including the parametric equalizer, which I set to roughly +3dB at 500Hz to get what sounds close to tonal balance to my ears with the uR/LKS combination and be thrilled.  It also allows me to go to one of my desktop computers and listen to music through the USB output on the motherboard feeding a Focusrite 2i2 and some relatively inexpensive cans and be content as well.   

I'll install a CDP or two to feed the LKS this weekend and let you all know what I find.


----------



## Lennym

aggielaw said:


> Lenny,
> 
> I disagree with the idea that "dry and detailed" is a bad thing, and that the LKS would not be as popular as it is if it were so.  As a guy who doesn't listen seriously through headphones, but who owns some nice mid-level cans, the headphone world breaks up neatly in to two parts for me: those that artificially boost the bass and/or midbass, and those that do not.  While you may listen through cans that are tonally neutral, many do not.  More, many "headphone guys" own multiple pairs of cans because they change the character of the sound, and they can easily switch cans to achieve whichever flavor they would like to hear at that time or with that genre of music.  Consequently, I think a dry, detailed unit like the LKS is exactly the kind of product that would be raved about in headphone circles.  If you want the sound romanticized for you, you have a pair of cans that will do that, and without making the sound dark or muddy.  If you want detail and honesty you have a different set of cans for that, and the LKS will give you all you want of that.
> 
> ...



Dry and detailed are two different things.  I can accept detail as desirable.  To me detail is the correct reproduction of low level information.  That  includes spatial information as well as some transients.  I cannot accept "dry" as a desirable.  I come from the school of audio that believes that the purpose of our hobby is to reproduce real music as close as possible, what Harry Pearson dubbed the absolute sound.  And the real thing is not "dry."

By the same reasoning I cannot buy into "multiple pairs of cans because they change the character of the sound, and they can easily switch cans to achieve whichever flavor they would like to hear at that time."  Maybe someone will kick me off of head-fi because I am not a believer.  The only flavor that interests me is the one that comes as close as possible to reproduce real sound.  If I had a bunch of cans, I would find that one and dispose of the rest.

Actually I have a hard time understanding the interest in cans, for almost all recordings are engineered to be reproduced through speakers.  I know of binaurals, but they are very few.  Earphones hype up the sound too much for me.  Perhaps I have something to learn here.

By your playing with equalizers, etc., you show that we are on opposite sides of the hobby.  I suppose I am where you say you were 5 years ago.

Of the media that most people enjoy, I think vinyl, and particularly old vinyl, and a proper vinyl set-up comes closest to delivering the most natural sound.  And that includes the reproduction of space and the three dimensionality of the musical sources.  The LKS, by the way, does that very very well, but still not as good as the vinyl IMO.  But of course vinyl is a PITA.  I am amused when reviewers think they are achieving something when they compare one DAC to another  They are using a moving target, and one too close to the example under review, as a reference.  They would be better off IMO comparing a DAC to great vinyl.  They would be best off comparing to the real thing.

Because you asked, though I don't think it matters, my LKS runs into Sim electronics to Van Schweikert speakers and a Rythmik sub-woofer.


----------



## ToTo Man (Mar 2, 2018)

The DA-004 recently came to my attention (along with the Gustard X22) as a serious competitor to the Schiit Yggdrasil.  After a marathon read of all 33 pages of this thread this morning, I am left unsure as to whether the 004 will be suitable for my needs given that I am NOT tech-minded (a lot of the discussion went way over my head!).

The audio equipment I've had up until now has all been pretty much simple, foolproof, plug-and-play.  I run Audirvana+ on an 8 year old Mac Mini which is connected to a Schiit Yggdrasil and also an Arcam irDAC-II, both via USB.  My library is 80% PCM (75% of which is 16/44 and 25% hi-res) and 20% DSD64 in the form of SACD rips in .iso format.  I listen to my PCM content on the Yggdrasil and my DSD64 content on the irDAC-II.  Configuring Audirvana+ is pretty straight forward for this, and both DACs work without hiccups.  I don't bother with any upsampling shenanigans, especially not with the Yggdrasil given that it's internal filter is so highly praised for the magic it does for 16/44 content, I simply feed the material at its native sample rate.

I'm considering the X22 or DA-004 as I've read elsewhere that they rival or even surpass the Yggdrasil for detail and soundstaging.  However from what I've read in this thread I'm concerned about the apparent need to have a solid understanding of electronics and computer audio to be able to competently operate the DA-004, e.g. the requirement to update firmware, change DPLL settings, etc, things which I have zero knowledge of!

Are all 004 users proactive electronics and computer programming enthusiasts, or are there any technophobe users like me with a simple Mac setup?


----------



## Lennym

ToTo Man said:


> The DA-004 recently came to my attention (along with the Gustard X22) as a serious competitor to the Schiit Yggdrasil.  After a marathon read of all 33 pages of this thread this morning, I am left unsure as to whether the 004 will be suitable for my needs given that I am NOT tech-minded (a lot of the discussion went way over my head!).
> 
> The audio equipment I've had up until now has all been pretty much simple, foolproof, plug-and-play.  I run Audirvana+ on an 8 year old Mac Mini which is connected to a Schiit Yggdrasil and also an Arcam irDAC-II, both via USB.  My library is 80% PCM (75% of which is 16/44 and 25% hi-res) and 20% DSD64 in the form of SACD rips in .iso format.  I listen to my PCM content on the Yggdrasil and my DSD64 content on the irDAC-II.  Configuring Audirvana+ is pretty straight forward for this, and both DACs work without hiccups.  I don't bother with any upsampling shenanigans, especially not with the Yggdrasil given that it's internal filter is so highly praised for the magic it does for 16/44 content, I simply feed the material at its native sample rate.
> 
> ...



First if you use the LKS you wouldn't need separate DACs for PCM and DSD.  The LKS with upgraded USB board will accommodate both and switch automatically.

As far as Audirvana+ is concerned, you can ask here or you can address that to the factory or to the seller, shenzhenaudio.  AFAIK the factory supports jriver and foobar in windows.  Whether that extends to jriver on a Mac, for example, I don't know.  Since the Mac doesn't require a driver, perhaps it's easier.

DPLL is a non issue.  As a default you can set it at 8 and forget it.  Same with filter: Apodizing.

On another forum I was asked about the strengths and weaknesses of the LKS.  I wrote about the strengths and I said there were no audio weaknesses that I have found.  I went on to say, in part:

The weaknesses, as far as I am concerned have to do with the conditions of ownership. LKS (Li Ka-shing) is a small Chinese company with no international presence. . . .  ownership is a bit of an adventure. As an earlier adopter I had to address an overheating problem that the factory has since addressed. Very easily done with a few cheap heat sinks. Email support from the factory is supplied by an English-speaking support person. Still have to deal with things like removing the Amanero board to update firmware, but not a big deal. It's simple, and the factory provides very detailed illustrated instructions in English, but for a bit of a hobbyist.

But I would add here that for the inconvenience you get a DAC that plays multiples beyond its price point.

Fear might get in your way, but you will also find support here.  Some are very generous with their help as I hope you have already seen.  You might inquire about who here uses a Mac.

Hope this helps.


----------



## dcguy73

ToTo Man said:


> The DA-004 recently came to my attention (along with the Gustard X22) as a serious competitor to the Schiit Yggdrasil.  After a marathon read of all 33 pages of this thread this morning, I am left unsure as to whether the 004 will be suitable for my needs given that I am NOT tech-minded (a lot of the discussion went way over my head!).
> 
> The audio equipment I've had up until now has all been pretty much simple, foolproof, plug-and-play.  I run Audirvana+ on an 8 year old Mac Mini which is connected to a Schiit Yggdrasil and also an Arcam irDAC-II, both via USB.  My library is 80% PCM (75% of which is 16/44 and 25% hi-res) and 20% DSD64 in the form of SACD rips in .iso format.  I listen to my PCM content on the Yggdrasil and my DSD64 content on the irDAC-II.  Configuring Audirvana+ is pretty straight forward for this, and both DACs work without hiccups.  I don't bother with any upsampling shenanigans, especially not with the Yggdrasil given that it's internal filter is so highly praised for the magic it does for 16/44 content, I simply feed the material at its native sample rate.
> 
> ...



I'd say the LKS 004 is not the most user-friendly DAC, but you don't need to be an electronics expert to use it. You can control everything from the remote or from the front panel. Unlike the Audio-GD DACs, you don't have to play around with DIP switches to change the settings. Also, you don't have to update the Amanero board if you don't want to. I myself haven't done it because I'm pretty clumsy and I worry about screwing things up if I do it incorrectly.

Everything you need to know about the 004's settings you can find here in the forum or in the manual that LKS provides with the DAC.

The fact that LKS doesn't have a USA dealer is definitely a minus, but you probably get a cheaper price because of it.


----------



## aggielaw

ToTo Man said:


> The DA-004 recently came to my attention (along with the Gustard X22) as a serious competitor to the Schiit Yggdrasil.  After a marathon read of all 33 pages of this thread this morning, I am left unsure as to whether the 004 will be suitable for my needs given that I am NOT tech-minded (a lot of the discussion went way over my head!).
> 
> The audio equipment I've had up until now has all been pretty much simple, foolproof, plug-and-play.  I run Audirvana+ on an 8 year old Mac Mini which is connected to a Schiit Yggdrasil and also an Arcam irDAC-II, both via USB.  My library is 80% PCM (75% of which is 16/44 and 25% hi-res) and 20% DSD64 in the form of SACD rips in .iso format.  I listen to my PCM content on the Yggdrasil and my DSD64 content on the irDAC-II.  Configuring Audirvana+ is pretty straight forward for this, and both DACs work without hiccups.  I don't bother with any upsampling shenanigans, especially not with the Yggdrasil given that it's internal filter is so highly praised for the magic it does for 16/44 content, I simply feed the material at its native sample rate.
> 
> ...



I agree with Lenny and dcguy73.  I enjoy music.  If I have to become a computer engineer to maximize the performance of a piece of equipment then that is not the right piece of equipment for me.  However, with the LKS I simply plugged it in, let it run a week, and then sat in my chair and listened.  After half an hour I decided to start playing with the bandwidth.  Once I aurally understood the differences between the bandwidth settings I started playing with the filters.  All this can be done on the fly while your music is playing, so you minimize the issues of poor aural memory.  Eventually I decided to play with a couple combinations of bandwidth and filter "just for grins," but I prefer the highest bandwidth so I just leave it there. 

The LKS throws the widest and tallest soundstage I've ever heard.  I recently found that this is partly due to the fuse used in the unit.  When I swapped the stock fuse (which is actually an aftermarket fuse resembling, but certainly not, an original HiFi Tuning fuse) for the highly-regarded Synergistic Red fuse I got more body or weight to the music, but the soundstage shrunk significantly.  The soundstage is still quite good with the new fuse, but I think I'm going back to the stock fuse. 

While I'm mentioning the stock fuse, I found that mine was wrapped in gold foil the entire length of the fuse.  I tried the fuse without the foil and heard no difference.  I'm inclined to think the foil was used only to make the fuse fit snugly into position, as it rattles just a little bit without the foil, but I don't know that.  Does anyone here know why they wrap the fuse in foil?

@ToToMan, bottom line is don't let the exotic setup of many of the members here scare you.  I would venture to say it's merely coincidence that several here are very knowledgeable on the state of the art of computer audio.  The beauty of the LKS lies in the fact that it is a stellar performer that requires nothing more than understanding the basic information in the sparse owner's manual to perform well above its price.  Anything you do to tweak your setup beyond that is simply experimentation in the world of computer audio.  I heard the Benchmark DAC 3 HGC at Capital Audio Fest a few months ago, and was very impressed.  I nearly went in that direction, but the LKS won me over with its bandwidth and filter settings to tweak the sound.  Now, the difference between the settings is relatively small, but it's enough that appreciated having the ability to optimize it to my ear.

Good luck, and please do let us know what you decide!


----------



## ToTo Man

aggielaw said:


> While I'm mentioning the stock fuse, I found that mine was wrapped in gold foil the entire length of the fuse.  I tried the fuse without the foil and heard no difference.  I'm inclined to think the foil was used only to make the fuse fit snugly into position, as it rattles just a little bit without the foil, but I don't know that.  Does anyone here know why they wrap the fuse in foil?




Does wrapping the fuse in foil essentially mean it is bypassed?  This would worry me from a safety perspective, as I'm pretty OCD when it comes to safety!


----------



## ToTo Man

Lennym said:


> First if you use the LKS you wouldn't need separate DACs for PCM and DSD.  The LKS with upgraded USB board will accommodate both and switch automatically.
> 
> As far as Audirvana+ is concerned, you can ask here or you can address that to the factory or to the seller, shenzhenaudio.  AFAIK the factory supports jriver and foobar in windows.  Whether that extends to jriver on a Mac, for example, I don't know.  Since the Mac doesn't require a driver, perhaps it's easier.
> 
> ...





dcguy73 said:


> I'd say the LKS 004 is not the most user-friendly DAC, but you don't need to be an electronics expert to use it. You can control everything from the remote or from the front panel. Unlike the Audio-GD DACs, you don't have to play around with DIP switches to change the settings. Also, you don't have to update the Amanero board if you don't want to. I myself haven't done it because I'm pretty clumsy and I worry about screwing things up if I do it incorrectly.
> 
> Everything you need to know about the 004's settings you can find here in the forum or in the manual that LKS provides with the DAC.
> 
> The fact that LKS doesn't have a USA dealer is definitely a minus, but you probably get a cheaper price because of it.





aggielaw said:


> I agree with Lenny and dcguy73.  I enjoy music.  If I have to become a computer engineer to maximize the performance of a piece of equipment then that is not the right piece of equipment for me.  However, with the LKS I simply plugged it in, let it run a week, and then sat in my chair and listened.  After half an hour I decided to start playing with the bandwidth.  Once I aurally understood the differences between the bandwidth settings I started playing with the filters.  All this can be done on the fly while your music is playing, so you minimize the issues of poor aural memory.  Eventually I decided to play with a couple combinations of bandwidth and filter "just for grins," but I prefer the highest bandwidth so I just leave it there.
> 
> The LKS throws the widest and tallest soundstage I've ever heard.  I recently found that this is partly due to the fuse used in the unit.  When I swapped the stock fuse (which is actually an aftermarket fuse resembling, but certainly not, an original HiFi Tuning fuse) for the highly-regarded Synergistic Red fuse I got more body or weight to the music, but the soundstage shrunk significantly.  The soundstage is still quite good with the new fuse, but I think I'm going back to the stock fuse.
> 
> ...



Thank you all for your comments, this makes me a little less apprehensive about ownership of this DAC.  Is it true that the reported issues of overheating have been adequately addressed by the manufacturer and there is no longer a need for the owner to take action to cool the DAC chip to maintain optimum sound quality and cool the surrounding capacitors to prolong their useful life?


----------



## Lennym

ToTo Man said:


> Is it true that the reported issues of overheating have been adequately addressed by the manufacturer and there is no longer a need for the owner to take action to cool the DAC chip to maintain optimum sound quality and cool the surrounding capacitors to prolong their useful life?



Yes.


----------



## aggielaw

@ToTo Man: The fuse isn't bypassed because they left the ends of the fuse unwrapped.  The foil only covers the sides if you will.  

Every buyer's risk tolerance is different.  In order for me to feel comfortable buying a product that has had known issues in early production series I would want to hear from a number of owners who have owned the product for some period of time and have not had issues.  I would also want to know the employment conditions of their DAC (such as open or closed rack and how much space between the top of the LKS and anything above it).  The manufacturer or a spokesman explaining how the company solved the issue would be very helpful, but again, I'd want a few owners to confirm they haven't had issues post-remedial measures before I purchased.

As that applies to the LKS, I believe the method used to cure the heat issues was mentioned a few months ago in this thread.  It involved moving some other parts away from the Sabre chips, and may have involved improving heat dissipation directly as well.  I employ my LKS on the top shelf of an open rack, so it has nothing above, in front of, or behind it, and nothing within several inches of its sides.  I bought my unit the weekend after Thanksgiving, took receipt just after Christmas (due to having it shipped to a company for power supply upgrade first) and have had the unit powered on continuously since with no issues.  Anecdotal, but between at least Lenny, dcguy73 and me, that's a good start toward assurances the remedial measures worked.

It's a friendly group of users here, so please feel free to post more questions as they come to you.


----------



## OscarJr

Toto man,  

I like you, have PCM through-and-through, simply because my music is not available in any higher resolution.  I simply use USB-to-USB, using JRiver, and simply listen to music.  The settings are there to play with, but I find little difference listening through loudspeakers in a very bright room.  I simply leave the bandwidth to 01 since the manual says this reproduces the best sound quality, and use the Slow-M filter  Can I tell the difference between it and my Resonessence  Concero HD?  Not really, I can't unplug/plug them that fast to be able to detect difference, and perhaps the only apparent differences are with DSD/DXD, but none the less, it still sounds great.  Concero HD at the office at work, LKS MH-004 at home with my Legacy Calibre speakers.


----------



## dcguy73

@ToTo Man, to add what @aggielaw said above, I have had no technical problems with the LKS DAC at all. I got mine in September 2017 and I believe all the technical issues in early units had been worked out by then.


----------



## Whitigir (Mar 4, 2018)

I have 004 since as soon as February first batch.  I have 0 issues with heat dissipation.  Hell, I have been using KG Amps and Stax 009, and lately the KG T2 amplifier.  If anything would burn first. It would be my amp, then my house, and then the 004.

I did 0 modification to the 004.


----------



## Whitigir (Mar 4, 2018)

Short review on the LKS MA004.

I will try to be as throughout and as much expressive as I could in the while keeping it simple and don’t bore your mind out.  Please bare with me

*Sound signature: Fluidity, musicality, slightly warmth (not your typical ESS Sabres)
Sound stage: Vastly Gigantic, superbly accuracy and instrumentation’s placements, yet so clean.
*
So I have this unit as soon as last year in February or March, and was one of those first that adopted this piece of equipment.  The reason I went for this piece is simply, I have been loving crisps treble, details, resolutions, and clarity from Sabres ESS.  I could not wait for the next generation DAC that sport not only _*1 single ESE9038Pro, but dual ESS9038Pro.  Because the highest Dynamic range of 140Db is from using 1 chip per channel.*_  Luckily, LKS did come out with it as soon as possible, and with everything they tried to describe in specifications, and technical, it is impressive.

Why is this Dynamic range so important to me ? Because Dynamic range is what _depict how realistic something will be.  Human can tolerate up to about 140Db before threshold of pain._  There are no other DAC chip that can handle such prowess at this moment.

Anyways, so implementations and engineering’s are importants.  Yes, and for everything that is engineered within this 004 is _the very top_ of the *ancient technology, such as power supply, amplifications and Analog signals.  *Not only that, this 004 also sport *Exotic materials* such as *Wima capacitors, nicheCon Audio grade capacitors, Femto Crystals, OCC wires.*  After all, *how does it sound in more in-depth ? *



The sound that I am hearing and observing out of my System: KG T2, 004, and Stax SR009.  _I have silver wires everywhere that I can possibly put, power cord, usb, interconnect, chassis wires....etc._  Now, finally I can try to express what I am hearing. *I have been throwing Silver to this system to challenge it and see how much it can tolerate.  So far, every Silver contributed is an improvements in the system.  That is to simply put of how capable this DAC is*

Spaciousness, it is so huge, vastly gigantic, and yet Vocal are so spot on.  It can be close intimidating or a bit further away depends on how the records were intended.  But simply put, Vocal can be a slight bit forward and intimidating

Details are everywhere, so much resolutions, so vivid, and that nothing is lacking or voided ( usually incapable system will have this voided spaces that can leave the listener to wonder if there is something there ? Or is it not ? Mainly those plays that are meant to be presented far far away, and or very high in the spectrum, and can be found in Ballads, Jazz, some instruments genres ).  Is it harsh ? Nope, it is very smooth, and musical.  Remember the Dynamic range and the pain threshold ? Ever try standing next to a cymbals and thwack it real hard without your ears plugs ? Yes, it is very painful.  Now, through engineering and artists, there are filters applied in place of earplugs.  It depends on how, when, where, whom the records were made, there are slight alteration to the tonal timbres of Cymbals and other instruments.  Such little differences would be shown very very throughoutly in the 004.  Such vivid details could be presented as sibilants or brightness if the system is incapable, and further usages of *Silver* as the materials will *further enhance* this effects, the main culprit to give Silver the bad reputation.  *004 is very capable, and no matter how much Silver I throw at it, it keep achieving better trebles crispness,  vivid resolutions, vivid timbres, extensions presentations*.  *This is where it get the money and yet LKS even slightly emphasizes the warmth into the overall signature to further smoothing out the crazy capability of treble reproductions and resolutions to remain Musical with a touch of Emotion


*
Digital harshness is _*virtually non existent *_.  It would be those grainy, edgy feeling that you feel, and or sometime make you cringes your teeth in a horrible way or even take the musicality enjoyments out of your listening sessions.  Even with everything I have in my system that is all capable or revealing, I still can not hear this effect.

Analogue sound ? Yes, I would say that it is very analogue sounding as it is a very slight bit warmth and the presentation is not your typical ESS Sabres, but if you did not know it was a Sabres, you wouldn’t be able to comprehend how it does carry the crisps and the details extensions of such crazy trebles presentation either.  LKS has Perfected tuning for Sabres, and it is worthy to be categorized _*high-end, high performance, high fidelity *_DAC in my opinion.

Speed ? There is not a single phase that can express this feeling.  It appears to be very effortless in presenting and reproducing different instruments segments, plays, or each individual speed.  It also does so vividly.  It is so easily to observe a lingering sub bass from the grand drum, while catching up to those speedy hand cymbals within a vast ocean of other instruments within the track.  Even the resonances within an individual instrument timbres are vividly represented.*  Musicality and resolution you ask ?* Yes, full of it, and spot on.



Background or floor noises ? Superbly clean and clear in an unbelievable way.

*Specially is the bass*.  It is a slight bit blooming, slight bit warmth, and yet remain on the edge of neutrality and naturalness, but also musicality and emotional enough that even my system is so capable of revealing, I still find bass so be superbly satisfying in both Quantity, Quality, and further more *Fidelity 
*
_*Distortions?*_ Virtually non existed for such high-end references point of view, and perhaps will only be observable when it is intended, and how can I tell ? Because it only appears in Majority of Ballads or depressing, dramatic tracks, and appear as a part of special individual instruments or plays.  The rest of everything is just so clean and clear.

*Channel balances*: out of XLR, the balances are perfectly balances. The flows and continuity of different panning effects are well connected, the presentations are so accurate and spots on.  Usually, when channel imbalances even in the slightest bit will be picked up and realized by our brain power.  In this instant we would be very confused as to the positioning and presentations of different instruments are not constantly spot on.  004 has everything constantly spot on and is impossible to be confused between different presentations and positioning.


Whenever I turn this system on, I feel like I can easily hold, and split different plays, instruments that I would like to follow.  It makes my music collections to be so full of soul, full of enjoyments and every listening session is a bliss.

*Pricing,* I will let you as the judge, but from my own point of view, I can not thank LKS enough for such performances to pricing ratio this 004 is being sold at.

Thank you for your time and efforts to read through my own impressions, observations.  It should be used as points of interests rather than references to make a decisions on, because what I am hearing and enjoying may not be the same for you.  I would recommend you to give this unit a try somewhere/somehow before making a final decision


----------



## Lennym

Thank you Whitigir.  You said it better than I could.  Amazing DAC. Even more amazing value.


----------



## OscarJr

Man, I'm lovin the look of that silver edition!  Way nicer than the all black one of mine.   I love my speakers in black, but some electronics just look better in brushed aluminum/silver.


----------



## dcguy73

I take back what I said about the LKS DAC being dry and detailed. To be honest, the sound was fine until I recently acquired the HE1000v2s, after which I experienced some sibilance and fatigue and "dryness." I swapped out my silver headphone cable for an OCC copper one and the sound was much better, but still not great some of the time. I then figured out that the LKS DAC/HE1000v2s combo was shining a light on any poorly-recorded music I listened to, so the fault was not the LKS DAC itself. All of my well-recorded music sounded detailed and full but definitely not "dry." With my less-revealing headphones, I did not experience the "dryness" issue at all.


----------



## rettib2001

I've ordered my LKS, should arrive tomorrow/after tomorrow. 

Now to find a headphone amp that will play nicely with it.... Without breaking the bank.


----------



## dcguy73

rettib2001 said:


> I've ordered my LKS, should arrive tomorrow/after tomorrow.
> 
> Now to find a headphone amp that will play nicely with it.... Without breaking the bank.



Good for you! You'll definitely enjoy it.


----------



## rettib2001

dcguy73 said:


> Good for you! You'll definitely enjoy it.



Thanks, really looking forward to spending some time with it. 

Also thanks for your previous input, knowing there are people keeping this thread alive helped me with my decision.


----------



## dcguy73

rettib2001 said:


> Thanks, really looking forward to spending some time with it.
> 
> Also thanks for your previous input, knowing there are people keeping this thread alive helped me with my decision.



If the DAC hasn't shipped yet, you should ask the dealer to upgrade the firmware for the Amanero USB board for you prior to sending. I wish I had done that.
As far as a matching amp goes, I would recommend one with a little warmth.


----------



## rettib2001

dcguy73 said:


> If the DAC hasn't shipped yet, you should ask the dealer to upgrade the firmware for the Amanero USB board for you prior to sending. I wish I had done that.
> As far as a matching amp goes, I would recommend one with a little warmth.



For once I had the foresight to check if everything was up to date and that it was from a recent batch of production. Thankfully on both counts it is. 

Noted, bit of warmth it is.


----------



## rettib2001

dcguy73 said:


> If the DAC hasn't shipped yet, you should ask the dealer to upgrade the firmware for the Amanero USB board for you prior to sending. I wish I had done that.
> As far as a matching amp goes, I would recommend one with a little warmth.



Quick update. Received the LKS yesterday, really enjoying the sound straight out of the box.

It matches my other equipment really well. I've plugged it into my balanced mains unit at that really thickened things out nicely.

It looks like I might have to play around with drivers after all, as I use a roon endpoint (Allo Usbridge) which runs off Linux OS architecture and I'm lead to believe there is now an amenaro driver/firmware that allows up to dsd 512 over Linux.

My question is, where did you download the drivers you updated your unit with, directly from the amenaro website? It's a bit sparse and unintuitive.

I keep seeing references made to a '2000be' driver but it's nowhere to be seen on their site, there is only a 1099rc1.


----------



## fc911c

Hi,
I have a usb board firmware update question. I followed the process and no problem at all updating . I just wanted to know which version is the latest for cpu flash, I used 1096c.  There  is also 1096c4w2, 10963w2, 1096d_RJ. Could someone clear this up for me?

Thanks


----------



## xiamen

fc911c said:


> Hi,
> I have a usb board firmware update question. I followed the process and no problem at all updating . I just wanted to know which version is the latest for cpu flash, I used 1096c.  There  is also 1096c4w2, 10963w2, 1096d_RJ. Could someone clear this up for me?
> 
> Thanks


Amanero never made it clear. I believe 10963w2 is the latest version for windows and 2003be for linux. There was supposedly a new version coming out late last year for all os but 4 months down and nothing. btw you can get 2003be from the same 117 for 1099rc1.


----------



## fc911c

Hi thanks for the replay. Yes it’s very confusing, so I will try the 10963w2. What about the newest firmware for the CPLD which one is it? Seams there’s no rhyme or reason.

Not sure what you mean by “you can get 2003be from the same 117 for 1099rc1”

Thanks


----------



## Lennym (Mar 11, 2018)

fc911c said:


> Hi,
> I have a usb board firmware update question. I followed the process and no problem at all updating . I just wanted to know which version is the latest for cpu flash, I used 1096c.  There  is also 1096c4w2, 10963w2, 1096d_RJ. Could someone clear this up for me?
> 
> Thanks



I did this a short while ago.  The instructions from Jinbo are clear: firmware_1096c.  That works for me.

I used one of the others by mistake as it came up automatically instead of 1096c and it didn't work correctly.  Unless you enjoy experimenting I would either use 1096c or email Jinbo for his latest advice.  Same if you really think there's been a firmware update.

Same with CPLD_for_1080.


----------



## Lodwales81

Sorry people bit of topic but pulling my hair out regarding getting a lks da004

 I currently have mac book pro > schiit eitr > schiit bitfrost (not multi bit) > beyr A2 amp> beyer t1 g2 headphones. 

I looking at my dac options that would best match my amp and headphones. Possiblysomething that can add a bit of warmth to the sound, as A2 amp can sound a bit digitallyhowever clarity is unreal. Was originally just going to get the multi bit upgrade on bit frost but then I started reading the forums and got lost a little. My budget is £1300

So far I'm considering 


Chord qutest 
Lks da004 a lot of hype 
Gustard also a lot of hype
Audio gd r2r 2 
Holo springs r2r

I have been told that r2r dacs sound a bit more relaxed but add warmth to the sound. I keep hearing top reviews about Lks but concerned regarding over hyped gear. Please help !!!!!! !!!


----------



## Whitigir (Mar 11, 2018)

There is no hype about lks004.  It has a lot of positive impressions, sure.  Clarity and details can be a good or bad thing.  If the rest of your system is not capable of handling it, you will hear brightness or sibilant instead.

I am not too crazy for Gustard, but from my opinions, all 3 companies, Gustard, LKS, Audio GD, are all leading the right ways.  Proper power supply, and good audio grade parts with affordable pricing.  Gustard Is a bit behind in quality parts, so their products are cheaper.  Both LKS and Audio GD are similar in using high quality parts, and so they are priced similar


----------



## Lennym

Lodwales81 said:


> Sorry people bit of topic but pulling my hair out regarding getting a lks da004
> 
> I currently have mac book pro > schiit eitr > schiit bitfrost (not multi bit) > beyr A2 amp> beyer t1 g2 headphones.
> 
> ...



"Quick definitions from Macmillan (hype)


 



noun▸
the use of a lot of advertisements and other publicity to influence or interest people
more...

verb▸
to use a lot of advertisements and other publicity to influence or interest people
more..."

There is no "hype" about any of these Chinese direct imports.  They have virtually no North American or European presence.   They are selling (at least beyond Asia) strictly on word of mouth among buyers who took their chances and are willing to put up with the inconvenience of dealing with companies 12,000 miles away.  And you call that "hype"?  If you want to see hype go to the web sites of Shiit or PS Audio for openers, or the pages of your favorite audio periodical.

I suggest, in the first place, that you try to assemble components, each of which is relatively neutral, to wit, neither warm nor clinical.  Otherwise you'll have a hell of a time trying to compensate for deficiencies and lose a lot of options when it comes time to upgrade.  Beyond that you'll have to do what others here and elsewhere have done which is to pick a pool and dive in.  All of your listed DACs have happy owners.

Alternatively you can buy locally among companies that offer generous loaner or return policies.


----------



## Whitigir (Mar 11, 2018)

I am surprised that you did not mention Chord for being a Hype.  Chord, in a senses of marketing, cost, and technology, it is Hype! High-end products that cost 10k+ with a switching power supply, and many misleading marketing and advertisements.  If that is not hype, then I don’t know what is.

Now, into the game of expensive cost to productions.  You are not into a game of Audio-fool, but rather you are into a _*grown up game*_.  That means, only people with solid professions and stable source of incomes to afford your products.  There is no surprises that many are into technology and electrical engineerings.  You *can advertise your products to be built out of magic pixie dusts, or unicorn farts, but you can not fool the tech savvy folks*.  Yes, you can sell your products through _*deals, discounts,*_ and some people will simply buy in because of your advertising, and brand status.  But they are the minor.

If you want to play it safe, follow the people that knows, and are into technical discussions.  Both LKS and Audio GD are surprisingly good and well made for their pricing to products and performances ratios.  It surprises even the technical savvy folks.  So, pick a table, sit in, and judge it yourself


----------



## gruvytune

Hi audiophile friends.
I came across this threat and i know it is a bit old.  But thought I'd respond in case anyone is looking for a new DAC.  I bought sight unseen after discussing the feedback with a few others.  My current system is highly resolving after years of cobbling together what I consider a reference system now:
Rega Planar 5 w Crown Jewel mc cartridge
Laptop feeding via USB mostly lossless FLAC and SACD iso and DSD files (I have over 3 TB of data in a mirrored array - please do this, I lost my entire collection at one time as I procrastinated to get a backup drive)
Jriver music server (works the best at serving up DSD and SACD iso files) feeding
Convergent Audio SL1 Legend black path edition preamp
Classe Omega Mono amps (the last of the production specs)
YG Anat upgraded to Sonja 1.3 status
cables are non descript
I was using a variety of DACS over the years and had settled on a MF 1A DAC tried both USB and using a Gustard U20 reclocker.
I thought my system sounded just great, until I just got my LKS 004 w upgraded Amanero USB input.

It would be hard to go into too many details, but I am certain the system has been brought to a level of resolution and clarity I did not think was possible.  I've listened to the "best" DACs on the market at many audio shows in the past several years and it would be hard to find fault with this unit just out of the box.  I'm still running it in but after about 5 days, I think I can confidently say that I no longer have a desire to pull vinyl off the shelf.  Even PCM files via flac sound beyond what vinyl can reproduce.
The dynamic range is on par w records sans the clicks and pops.
The level of transparency allows for resolution and space to be determined in live recordings so that individual voices and instruments can be localized in both depth and height.  What I was hearing as occasional glare and sibilance - especially w female voice and horns - has disappeared - I was blaming this on the speakers having been at a loss of what was causing this.
The phase information on the recordings is clearly being transmitted and this can be determined in the system's ability to convey sense of recorded space and time delays from room reflections on the recording and in a great sense of depth and overtones/harmonics after notes are struck especially percussive instruments like piano and drums.

I had been leaning toward PS audio's perfect wave DAC as a competing option but for the price of this DAC, I can't imagine anything besting it.
There are folks like Ric Schultz doing modifications on this unit, but Jinbo at the LKS production facility has been taking suggestions over the last year from such people and adopted some of the mod suggestions into the newer production. I wouldn't mess with  what is an essentially perfect machine.  The production quality is not to be believed at this price.  look at the forums elsewhere at pictures of the chassis and boards.

I'm not one to write reviews on things here but I felt compelled given all the banter about it back and forth.  If anyone is on the fence, please keep this unit in mind when making a consideration.  I bought mine directly from LKS (muaudio) and Jinbo is quick to answer emails and questions.  You will save a couple of hundred buying direct from him vs his distributor and will be assured to have the latest production model.

T


----------



## xiamen

fc911c said:


> Hi thanks for the replay. Yes it’s very confusing, so I will try the 10963w2. What about the newest firmware for the CPLD which one is it? Seams there’s no rhyme or reason.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by “you can get 2003be from the same 117 for 1099rc1”
> 
> Thanks


I mean OEM Tool 117. Download that from https://amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm, unzip  and run ConfigTool.exe. You will find many versions of CPLD and firmware in there. There are actually 3 tabs in that program and literally hundreds if not thousands combination of options. According to that site 10963w2 is the latest version of windows firmware, but I don't know how up to date is that website. The reason I suggest 2003be for linux is because of the github website https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd/issues/12. But I don't use linux so can't say if you should use that and not 1099rc1. In fact, I have decided to bypass Amanero and goes down the Xmos path myself. I have another dac that uses xmos xu208 and have better experience than the Yulong I also had that uses Amanero. Also with the Singxer SU-1, I can try out i2s and it also supposedly provide better galvanic isolation etc that the in-built Amanero board. I had the upgraded Amanero board and tried mentally comparing the two options. It's not easy, the differences if any are subtle. However, I have decided to stick with the Singxer SU-1 as the music with it seems to have more energy. But that just me and my impression.


----------



## fc911c

Ok thanks for the explanation.


----------



## rikm

bibo01 said:


> Yesterday I spoke to Domenico from Amanero. A new Windows driver compatible with 2003be is ready, but he is still going through some Microsoft bureaucracy before he can release it. BTW, he will probably release a new firmware as well to further refine 2003be.
> Personally, I'm pretty happy with 2003be in Linux. I can playback at DSD256 and 512. I only get a random problem with the sound getting thinner, mostly at the higher frequency, without losing lock on the DAC. Domenico said it might be losing sync with oscillator - he will try to reproduce it.




Good morning bibo01, you say you also use your LKS-4 with linux, and I am thinking of trying to flash the Amanero board running v1.17 under wine...did you ever give this any thought?  I don't have a windoze pc available and want to avoid taking the DAC on a road trip if possible... anyway, the utility starts up and seems to be functional under wine, so I'm thinking...

And you say that you are happy with the 2003be firmware but did not mention if you changed the CPLD version in any way...do you remember what version of that you have?


thanks and any info appreciated,


rikm


----------



## bibo01

rikm said:


> Good morning bibo01, you say you also use your LKS-4 with linux, and I am thinking of trying to flash the Amanero board running v1.17 under wine...did you ever give this any thought?  I don't have a windoze pc available and want to avoid taking the DAC on a road trip if possible... anyway, the utility starts up and seems to be functional under wine, so I'm thinking...
> 
> And you say that you are happy with the 2003be firmware but did not mention if you changed the CPLD version in any way...do you remember what version of that you have?
> 
> ...


Sorry I don't think CPLD version was changed.
I should call Amanero and get an update on his firmware staus...


----------



## Lodwales81

Hmm, my head says chord (local dealer and returned if any issues) but think I will hit the button on the Lks (people are giving some amazing feedback) hoping this bad boy blows me away, thank you for your comments appreciate them.


----------



## rikm

bibo01 said:


> Sorry I don't think CPLD version was changed.
> I should call Amanero and get an update on his firmware staus...



...think you are right on the CPLD version, can't find anything to indicate that it should be changed...
and the utility also shows a '2003be_71A' choice, with no description...no info found on that as yet


----------



## aggielaw

I haven't bothered to look at the firmware version of my unit, but if an update is available what would be the benefit of flashing it?

Thanks!


----------



## rikm

aggielaw said:


> I haven't bothered to look at the firmware version of my unit, but if an update is available what would be the benefit of flashing it?
> 
> Thanks!



well the value for me would be in the playing of hi-rez .dsf files directly, ie. without software intervention...at this point, I only have one such album [ a DSD256 download] and the rest of my stuff is all either my own rips at DSD64 or downloads at 64 or 128, so it is more a matter of a spare time project, as the LKS4 already plays hi-rez .flac quite well just as it is...


----------



## gruvytune

I am able to play bitstream direct DSD files of any bit length directly from jriver via ASIO to my LKS without conversion to PCM or otherwise.  Not a single issue usually at DLL of 6 or 7.  This is dsf or dff files as well as SACD iso files.


----------



## rikm

gruvytune said:


> I am able to play bitstream direct DSD files of any bit length directly from jriver via ASIO to my LKS without conversion to PCM or otherwise.  Not a single issue usually at DLL of 6 or 7.  This is dsf or dff files as well as SACD iso files.




...well I have played with JRiver and HQPlayer as well, and understand that they can do some fun DSP stuff, but I settled on mpd and it's more straightforward approach a while ago...perhaps because my usual music choices these days are more acoustic jazz and classical than anything else...guess I just look to get the bits to the amp with as little fuss as possible


----------



## xiamen

rikm said:


> ...well I have played with JRiver and HQPlayer as well, and understand that they can do some fun DSP stuff, but I settled on mpd and it's more straightforward approach a while ago...perhaps because my usual music choices these days are more acoustic jazz and classical than anything else...guess I just look to get the bits to the amp with as little fuss as possible





rikm said:


> ...well I have played with JRiver and HQPlayer as well, and understand that they can do some fun DSP stuff, but I settled on mpd and it's more straightforward approach a while ago...perhaps because my usual music choices these days are more acoustic jazz and classical than anything else...guess I just look to get the bits to the amp with as little fuss as possible



Yes, the straight forward approach is often the best. My LKS came last November and it's default firmware is 10963w2. On windows 10 64-bit, it plays up to DSD512. From what I know, this firmware will only play up to DSD128 on a linux source. But really, there is hardly any material out there that is higher than that anyway. SACD iso is only DSD64, and so are most dsf unless you up sample these files yourself. So firmware upgrade is not really necessary unless you intend to up sample and on linux. I am unhappy with Amanero because they don't tell much about what the different version of firmwares are for (except sometimes a one line vague description in the oem tool) and not clear which version is the latest for what.  I do up sample myself but more as a hobbyist. For me, it's like people adding loads of crapifiers between the source and the dac. Do they improve the sound or do they just make you think or wish that's the case.


----------



## rikm

xiamen said:


> Yes, the straight forward approach is often the best. My LKS came last November and it's default firmware is 10963w2. On windows 10 64-bit, it plays up to DSD512. From what I know, this firmware will only play up to DSD128 on a linux source. But really, there is hardly any material out there that is higher than that anyway. SACD iso is only DSD64, and so are most dsf unless you up sample these files yourself. So firmware upgrade is not really necessary unless you intend to up sample and on linux. I am unhappy with Amanero because they don't tell much about what the different version of firmwares are for (except sometimes a one line vague description in the oem tool) and not clear which version is the latest for what.  I do up sample myself but more as a hobbyist. For me, it's like people adding loads of crapifiers between the source and the dac. Do they improve the sound or do they just make you think or wish that's the case.



...yes, I agree, as I said it's more of a spare time project than any real need...and I am puzzled by Amanero also, their website is lacking a lot of information that would be helpful, and yet they helped out with getting the updated driver in the mainline kernel but then do not provide a way to use the driver by providing a utility to update the firmware--or even just allow the driver developers access to the source code to compile the utility for linux and mac


----------



## music_man

I am not trying to be smart. Serious. I am currently using an Ayre QX-5 Twenty in my smaller system. I sometimes swap out a Chord Dave. I would say the Ayre is better and it is a single 9038Pro. I was wondering if this is possibly better? It has Two 9038Pro but there is a lot more than that to a DAC. I would just guess the $13,000 DAC is better but stranger things have happened. This does look very well put together. I wonder if they paid that much attention to the sound. I do not need to waste my time ordering this if I am barking up the wrong tree. I am serious here you never know stranger things have happened indeed. I would just guess this is the best China currently has to offer nonetheless. No, I am not kidding money goes much further in China. Who knows. Opinions on this? Thanks.


----------



## music_man

I thought about it more and I would doubt it. Most of what you hear in a DAC is not the DAC chips themselves. Rather the output stage mostly. The chips play a role in the sound but I would say with any modern chip or FPGA maybe 15-20%. The L.K.S. has quality components but I am talking on a different level obviously. The Ayre has a clock 20X more accurate than a Femto. It has their dual Diamond output stage. Most importantly Charlie(R.I.P.) did not use the stock curve but came up with 2 in the 2 programmable slots. Both recognized as being far better than the stock curves. Their are even higher quality components in the rest of it. AYRE lock. Galvanicly isolated inputs. The list goes on. Much of the same can be said for the Chord DAVE. I think even the right $2,000 dac from a well known brand made in USA or JAPAN, Europe ETC. may beat this. AYRE's own Codex coes to mind. Or The Benchmark DACS plus others just to name perhaps Two.

Why? As I just said do not be so impressed by the chip(s). Mundorf, Nicjicon are okay but not best. Point in case The current Accuphase DC 950 uses 2x ES9018's for $33,000USD. It is a stellar dac and better than both the AYRE and Chord most would agree. That sort of means a ES9018K2M can do the same duty albeit at a slightly lower THD and SN. These numbers are already so high in DAC chips after 2015 that a little more does not matter much if at all. Hence my saying perhaps even the Codex would beat this thing. Same price too. It is well regarded as aiming at $6,000 DAC's.

Not sure about the L.K.S. So, given what level of equipment I am playing with I have my reservations this being better. I saw 2x ES9038PRO and thought HMM. It is all the implementation and topology and not so much any modern DAC chip(s) quite frankly. At the end of the day this is still some no name Shenzen product in a sea of them. I just do not know. I was hoping someone could perhaps inform me regarding this. I may have been right on my hunch first or now on my second thought about it. Not sure but in retrospect I kind of doubt it. It does seem novel but that does not equate to sound. Many of the best DACS out currently have 1-2 year old DAC chips for Tens of thousands of dollars. Others much cheaper may still beat it even. I just don't know but do not wish to waste money. I only buy things I will use. If anyone wishes to comment on this and not laugh at me it would be welcome.


----------



## Lennym (Mar 21, 2018)

music_man said:


> The Ayre has a clock 20X more accurate than a Femto.



Just for openers, let's start here.  The Ayre uses a "Morion quartz crystal-based oscillator."  I've gone over the Morion site and cannot find a clock such as you describe.  Actually, I'm not sure any exists with the specification you write of.  Perhaps you could help here by pointing us to the Morion clock, or any clock, 20X more accurate than the Crystek 82fs clock.


----------



## music_man

It is not on their site because it was commissioned by AYRE in conjunction with MORION it is 19fs or something but don't quote me on that. I am just thinking I remember a demo of it by AYRE. It is not crystal but Diamond or something if I also remember correctly. I will admit if I am wrong. Since I am not entirely sure. The point is it is a $13,000 DAC and DAVE is around that as well. I do not know anything about L.K.S. I saw 2x 9038PRO but you see my second thought on this.

Anyways, no need to argue that point. I was just honestly wondering how good this L,K.S. is. I am not kidding. Like I said you never know....
The board looks pretty darn good for China. Plus 2x 9038PRO. However like I also said I do not know what else the circuit is, if they have custom programmed the 9038's and most importantly how it sounds. I am being serious because our Dollar goes a lot further in China of course. For all I know this is like a $50,000 DAC, or perhaps pretty good but not spectacular. I know nothing about this thing other than their Changlish.

My second guess was no way it is replacing the QX-5, DAVE or even Codex,Benchmark or heck Teac, Oppo. I have no idea what level this thing is at. I do not know if people are buying it for price Vs. specs or if it is a tour de force. For some reason it has caught my eye. However I only wish to purchase things I will use. I have no idea where the sound quality lies on this thing. It would be helpful if someone could compare it to a well known DAC at a given price point. Is it akin to $2,500 or $50,000? I am not trolling, if it is superb I would really like it. Since I am not trolling I would hope anyone that comments is honest. It has to be someone that knows though not someone that this is their only experience please.


----------



## music_man

Audio-GD has one too, albeit more expensive. I see these companies with 2x 9038 are :downgrading" the spec of 1 chip to make 2 chips look better. I guess this is typical Chinese stuff. For beginners. Most posts on these DAC's be them 1 or 2 chips are by 100+ Head-Fier's. I think I can answer my own question. Also having an MSB Select.  These are for a different market than myself apparently. Most bang for the buck. I take it these are not reference quality, end game DAC's.

I also see that there is not even a lot of interest in L.K.S. let alone similar DAC's with 1 chip. These are not hundreds of pages long like high end name brand DAC's often are. I think that is what it boils down to. These product's offer someone a lot for a little but they are not super high end products. I am sure most actual high end DAC's with just 1 9038 or FPGA or R2R or even 9018k2m will wipe the floor with almost all of these Chinese products. That is my understanding.

Again, I am not trolling. I really hoped this or others were incredible regardless of their respective prices. If I am wrong I hope someone will correct me. I hope this is better than true TOTL DAC's. That would be great. Apparently there is so little interest in these that no one has yet to answer the question I have posed several times now. After this I shall drop it. I also will refrain from purchasing any no name Chines gear. I do not know where I got the idea that these are better than well known TOTL, end game DAC's. I kind of doubt they are. Who knows.........

I was truly interested in this but for whatever reason I guess I shall never know. I am certainly not one to Gamble $1,600. Even though I have DAC's here 50x that price. Regardless, I do not waste money no matter what the sum. Perhaps you guy's are all too busy laughing at me? I really wish I knew how these sound but not buying one to find out. Why I was hoping for help from those here. Oh well. It is not like I am lacking in DAC's anyways but I always welcome other great components. If indeed it is at that level. I know nothing about these Chinese components seemingly flooding the market. I did wish to however. It is also interesting to date AFAIK no true high brand has implemented dual 9038's. Some did implement dual 9018's or a single 9018K2M. In fact some are currently. It is really not the chip that matters so much after a certain point. I know that much.


----------



## xiamen

If you are not trolling, I don't know what is.


----------



## Lennym (Mar 22, 2018)

Not only a troll, but a stupid one.  Doesn't know anything about clocks, or math for that matter.  Pure BS.  Expresses infatuation with very expensive DACs.  Probably listens to an old Sony.  Time to ignore this fool.  Let's all hope that he doesn't buy an LKS so that he'll be soon gone.


----------



## rikm

thanks again Lennym for the Amanero instructions...tried both the 2003be and the 2003be_71a, went back to the 1096 and then back again to 2003be...seems stable enough but seems to want more phase lock bandwidth with DSD than has been reported here...have put a Regen in the signal path and will play with it more


----------



## Lennym

rikm said:


> thanks again Lennym for the Amanero instructions...tried both the 2003be and the 2003be_71a, went back to the 1096 and then back again to 2003be...seems stable enough but seems to want more phase lock bandwidth with DSD than has been reported here...have put a Regen in the signal path and will play with it more


I'd be interested to know how the Regen works out.  What PS are you using?  I recently scored a used Intona (industrial version) and I like it.  Placed between my laptop and the LKS seems to give me some extra clarity and consistency over time.  Main purpose is to isolate LKS from whatever the computer is doing that might degrade.


----------



## music_man

I was not kidding. On the basis that our Dollar goes much further there. This looking to be the best they have to offer in this segment. For all I know this is really outstanding. Even amongst DAC's many times it's price. Or it could be some Chinese junk. I was just hoping someone could tell me where this lies. IE, what name brand DAC is the best it stacks up against. I see that the "Elders" here have no interest in this. So don't worry I will move on. Nice idea of mine but really stupid I guess. Most likely this can not compete with a Teac or Oppo is why few got defensive. I think that pretty much spells it out. I guess honestly it is Mid-FI at best. I apologize for intruding upon your thread.

As for my math That is funny. Look at Ayre's specs. Looking on Morion's site of all things. I have a good feeling my question was unanswered because this is absolutely not anything special. Perhaps I should ask is it as good as a $200 DAC? Okay, now I am trolling. I had good intentions but they were met with insults and sarcasm. It is no sweat off my back to pass by a subpar product made in a factory with a dirt floor by child laborers most likely. If the end result was incredible sound I could care less but apparently that is not the case. A more serious question prevails however. Wouldn't those with a $1,600 budget be better served by the likes of Oppo, Teac, Ifi, Meridian ETC? Also being Chinese all of them but perhaps not slapped together. Good luck if you need warranty and they do not cover burned down house.

You do not have to worry I will not be back to this thread. Since I honestly I had very little interest in such an item to begin with. As a seasoned professional I may suggest purchasing products from established companies with a US presence. Pacific valve Co. went out of business due to all the casualties related to the products they were importing from China. Is this UL, CE rated? I think I can answer that.  Anyways have fun with this thing. Not sure what the allure is over name brand items even if of Chinese origin. No one cared to tell me. OH-Well.


----------



## ToTo Man

music_man said:


> I am not trying to be smart. Serious. I am currently using an Ayre QX-5 Twenty in my smaller system. I sometimes swap out a Chord Dave. I would say the Ayre is better and it is a single 9038Pro. I was wondering if this is possibly better? It has Two 9038Pro but there is a lot more than that to a DAC. I would just guess the $13,000 DAC is better but stranger things have happened. This does look very well put together. I wonder if they paid that much attention to the sound. I do not need to waste my time ordering this if I am barking up the wrong tree. I am serious here you never know stranger things have happened indeed. I would just guess this is the best China currently has to offer nonetheless. No, I am not kidding money goes much further in China. Who knows. Opinions on this? Thanks.





music_man said:


> I thought about it more and I would doubt it. Most of what you hear in a DAC is not the DAC chips themselves. Rather the output stage mostly. The chips play a role in the sound but I would say with any modern chip or FPGA maybe 15-20%. The L.K.S. has quality components but I am talking on a different level obviously. The Ayre has a clock 20X more accurate than a Femto. It has their dual Diamond output stage. Most importantly Charlie(R.I.P.) did not use the stock curve but came up with 2 in the 2 programmable slots. Both recognized as being far better than the stock curves. Their are even higher quality components in the rest of it. AYRE lock. Galvanicly isolated inputs. The list goes on. Much of the same can be said for the Chord DAVE. I think even the right $2,000 dac from a well known brand made in USA or JAPAN, Europe ETC. may beat this. AYRE's own Codex coes to mind. Or The Benchmark DACS plus others just to name perhaps Two.
> 
> Why? As I just said do not be so impressed by the chip(s). Mundorf, Nicjicon are okay but not best. Point in case The current Accuphase DC 950 uses 2x ES9018's for $33,000USD. It is a stellar dac and better than both the AYRE and Chord most would agree. That sort of means a ES9018K2M can do the same duty albeit at a slightly lower THD and SN. These numbers are already so high in DAC chips after 2015 that a little more does not matter much if at all. Hence my saying perhaps even the Codex would beat this thing. Same price too. It is well regarded as aiming at $6,000 DAC's.
> 
> Not sure about the L.K.S. So, given what level of equipment I am playing with I have my reservations this being better. I saw 2x ES9038PRO and thought HMM. It is all the implementation and topology and not so much any modern DAC chip(s) quite frankly. At the end of the day this is still some no name Shenzen product in a sea of them. I just do not know. I was hoping someone could perhaps inform me regarding this. I may have been right on my hunch first or now on my second thought about it. Not sure but in retrospect I kind of doubt it. It does seem novel but that does not equate to sound. Many of the best DACS out currently have 1-2 year old DAC chips for Tens of thousands of dollars. Others much cheaper may still beat it even. I just don't know but do not wish to waste money. I only buy things I will use. If anyone wishes to comment on this and not laugh at me it would be welcome.





music_man said:


> It is not on their site because it was commissioned by AYRE in conjunction with MORION it is 19fs or something but don't quote me on that. I am just thinking I remember a demo of it by AYRE. It is not crystal but Diamond or something if I also remember correctly. I will admit if I am wrong. Since I am not entirely sure. The point is it is a $13,000 DAC and DAVE is around that as well. I do not know anything about L.K.S. I saw 2x 9038PRO but you see my second thought on this.
> 
> Anyways, no need to argue that point. I was just honestly wondering how good this L,K.S. is. I am not kidding. Like I said you never know....
> The board looks pretty darn good for China. Plus 2x 9038PRO. However like I also said I do not know what else the circuit is, if they have custom programmed the 9038's and most importantly how it sounds. I am being serious because our Dollar goes a lot further in China of course. For all I know this is like a $50,000 DAC, or perhaps pretty good but not spectacular. I know nothing about this thing other than their Changlish.
> ...





music_man said:


> Audio-GD has one too, albeit more expensive. I see these companies with 2x 9038 are :downgrading" the spec of 1 chip to make 2 chips look better. I guess this is typical Chinese stuff. For beginners. Most posts on these DAC's be them 1 or 2 chips are by 100+ Head-Fier's. I think I can answer my own question. Also having an MSB Select.  These are for a different market than myself apparently. Most bang for the buck. I take it these are not reference quality, end game DAC's.
> 
> I also see that there is not even a lot of interest in L.K.S. let alone similar DAC's with 1 chip. These are not hundreds of pages long like high end name brand DAC's often are. I think that is what it boils down to. These product's offer someone a lot for a little but they are not super high end products. I am sure most actual high end DAC's with just 1 9038 or FPGA or R2R or even 9018k2m will wipe the floor with almost all of these Chinese products. That is my understanding.
> 
> ...





music_man said:


> I was not kidding. On the basis that our Dollar goes much further there. This looking to be the best they have to offer in this segment. For all I know this is really outstanding. Even amongst DAC's many times it's price. Or it could be some Chinese junk. I was just hoping someone could tell me where this lies. IE, what name brand DAC is the best it stacks up against. I see that the "Elders" here have no interest in this. So don't worry I will move on. Nice idea of mine but really stupid I guess. Most likely this can not compete with a Teac or Oppo is why few got defensive. I think that pretty much spells it out. I guess honestly it is Mid-FI at best. I apologize for intruding upon your thread.
> 
> As for my math That is funny. Look at Ayre's specs. Looking on Morion's site of all things. I have a good feeling my question was unanswered because this is absolutely not anything special. Perhaps I should ask is it as good as a $200 DAC? Okay, now I am trolling. I had good intentions but they were met with insults and sarcasm. It is no sweat off my back to pass by a subpar product made in a factory with a dirt floor by child laborers most likely. If the end result was incredible sound I could care less but apparently that is not the case. A more serious question prevails however. Wouldn't those with a $1,600 budget be better served by the likes of Oppo, Teac, Ifi, Meridian ETC? Also being Chinese all of them but perhaps not slapped together. Good luck if you need warranty and they do not cover burned down house.
> 
> You do not have to worry I will not be back to this thread. Since I honestly I had very little interest in such an item to begin with. As a seasoned professional I may suggest purchasing products from established companies with a US presence. Pacific valve Co. went out of business due to all the casualties related to the products they were importing from China. Is this UL, CE rated? I think I can answer that.  Anyways have fun with this thing. Not sure what the allure is over name brand items even if of Chinese origin. No one cared to tell me. OH-Well.



You sure do have a bad case of verbal diarrhoea...


----------



## music_man (Mar 23, 2018)

That is very interesting since TOTO is the leading manufacturer of TOILETS in the world! LMAO! What an amazing coincidence

Everyone come back when you have at least 3,000 posts here. Or just enjoy your junk Chinese equipment because you are either newbies or poor or both. or a TOILET. Seriously, may I suggest a Teac or Oppo if you want Chinese products. At least those are good quality. Not slapped together. I guess I was just baffled why anyone would buy this stuff after the fiascos with similar products that are now defunct.
I admit I could not help myself I trolled from the beginning here. I come clean. Of course this cannot hold a candle to TOTL equipment. This is pretty much bottom of the barrel IMO. I am pretty experienced with this. why do you not partake in the reading of my nearly 4,000 posts? I have won multiple Grammy's so I think that pretty much speaks for itself. There is proof within these pages before you look stupid and call my bluff on that.

Anyways I do apologize nonetheless, I really did not need to do this. In fact I do not know why I did this. It is unlike me. I am really sorry for being a jerk in this thread. That is all I have to say and you do have every right to be mad at me for doing so.

Okay, I have read the entire thread. It is basically compared in detail to nothing. Scarred? Only one Headphonus Supremis in the entire thread. He had SR009 as do I, among many other TOTL Phones and loudspeakers. He had the L.K.S. because he was in the process of "downgrading" his system. Next highest in thread is a 500 Headfier. It was "compared" or asked many times can it beat a $10K-$30K DAC and was pretty much never answered by anyone else. "It is a good deal at the price", I might agree with. Someone said someone else they heard ditched DAVE for it, hearsay. Many people did say it sounds like it is 10x it's price ETC. Newbies and their car is a KIA but they pretend it is an aston martin while emiting exhaust sounds out of their pie hole. People are modding it a lot. You do not do this with a real TOTL DAC. Most importantly I will not be getting it because, go figure it is plagued with problems. Stick with a major name brand is my advice. Wait for the fires forthcoming. I am sorry I ruined your party. I actually had intentions of buying this. This nastiness on my part emanated from my questions not being answered. Instead being met with sarcasm and rudeness. I am well known for my good reputation here. I am sorry(for myself) that I even went down this rabbit hole. Luckily for all of us, myself included I will not be buying this. The AYRE QX5-Twenty, DAVE, certainly my MSB Select will wipe the floor with this without my even hearing it. That is no surprise, Right? I do once again also apologize that I interrupted your thread. Carry on without my presence.......  If no one insults me or mentions me again here I shall not reply to this thread again, deal? I am sorry I intruded(originally with good intentions) andplease just continue with your conversation. Sans myself. I would agree, I have a lot to say. Worthwhile or not. I shall not continue so long as no one mentions me again in this thread. Just pretend I never got caught up in this. It was my mistake and I apologize for doing so.


----------



## xiamen

No. You will not have the last word. Just give us another 20 posts of your crap.


----------



## rikm

Lennym said:


> I'd be interested to know how the Regen works out.  What PS are you using?  I recently scored a used Intona (industrial version) and I like it.  Placed between my laptop and the LKS seems to give me some extra clarity and consistency over time.  Main purpose is to isolate LKS from whatever the computer is doing that might degrade.



...well, the Regen [the ISO model] seems to have helped, it has Uptone's LP1 for power, everything else is plugged directly into a filter strip into a filtering UPS and all is quiet

I should point out that the computer in the listening room is a headless Cubox-i4, so very low power and fanless and isn't really doing anything else but getting the file from the music server and handing it off to the DAC...more of that minimalist approach thing I guess...

In any case, at this point have the DSD phase lock BW down to 8 from 11...will probably continue to play around with things for a while, but I think 7 or 8 is what I remember reading as ok


----------



## littlexx26

anyone compared 004 to the new Teac 505 series?


----------



## xiamen

rikm said:


> ...well, the Regen [the ISO model] seems to have helped, it has Uptone's LP1 for power, everything else is plugged directly into a filter strip into a filtering UPS and all is quiet
> 
> I should point out that the computer in the listening room is a headless Cubox-i4, so very low power and fanless and isn't really doing anything else but getting the file from the music server and handing it off to the DAC...more of that minimalist approach thing I guess...
> 
> In any case, at this point have the DSD phase lock BW down to 8 from 11...will probably continue to play around with things for a while, but I think 7 or 8 is what I remember reading as ok


I always wonder if DPLL or BW makes that much different. According to the LKSI think it does but if I switch from say 8 to 9 during play, I struggle to hear any differences. According to a post I read once from another forum:

"The Sabre DPLL has adjustable bandwidth. Setting the bandwidth to its lowest value results in maximum jitter reduction. However if the bandwidth is “too low”, the DPLL will loose lock and you will hear dropouts. Thus the usable lowest bandwidth setting is one where no dropouts occur."

So if you have already greatly reduce jitter using purifier such as Regen between the source and dac, does BW level matters anymore?


----------



## aggielaw

This is a fascinating question, and I would add to it the questions "What (all) does the DPLL bandwidth do?"  That is, "when you change the bandwidth, by what means is jitter being reduced?"  

I think the answer to this is important in part because users on this forum, including me, have assumed that BW01 is best, and BW15 is worst, but my own listening did not bear this out.  Frankly, I find the BW01 setting a little "edgy" and the settings in the BW10-12 range less so, if only by a minuscule amount. 

So, could it be that the DAC is passing through a purer signal at BW15 than at any higher bandwidth?


----------



## rikm

xiamen said:


> I always wonder if DPLL or BW makes that much different. According to the LKSI think it does but if I switch from say 8 to 9 during play, I struggle to hear any differences. According to a post I read once from another forum:
> 
> "The Sabre DPLL has adjustable bandwidth. Setting the bandwidth to its lowest value results in maximum jitter reduction. However if the bandwidth is “too low”, the DPLL will loose lock and you will hear dropouts. Thus the usable lowest bandwidth setting is one where no dropouts occur."





aggielaw said:


> This is a fascinating question, and I would add to it the questions "What (all) does the DPLL bandwidth do?"  That is, "when you change the bandwidth, by what means is jitter being reduced?"
> 
> I think the answer to this is important in part because users on this forum, including me, have assumed that BW01 is best, and BW15 is worst, but my own listening did not bear this out.  Frankly, I find the BW01 setting a little "edgy" and the settings in the BW10-12 range less so, if only by a minuscule amount.
> 
> So, could it be that the DAC is passing through a purer signal at BW15 than at any higher bandwidth?



===

...well these are good points, and I have googled around and about and there is lots of complicated whitepaper-level stuff on DPLL, so I am doing my best not to go all OCD on the BW settings...that and the filter setting is more than I want to have to worry about...

That said, I would also be interested in seeing a discussion on the topic--as it relates to the simple but elusive 'what should sound better' I mean...hopefully skipping right over the obvious 'It depends' and maybe breaking down some of the denser bits of some of those whitepapers...


----------



## dcguy73

Well, the day finally came...I upgraded from the LKS DAC to the KTE Holo Audio Spring L3 DAC. While the LKS MH-DA004 DAC punches way above its weight and price, the (2X the price) KTE L3 DAC is an improvement. Much more of a lateral move than a step ahead, as the KTE is an R2R DAC and the LKS is a Delta Sigma DAC. Not easy to compare one to the other -- they're like apples and oranges.

So, once I retrieve the (giant, double) shipping box from storage this weekend, I will be looking to sell my (single-owner) LKS MH-DA004 DAC. I will be sad to part with its rock-solid build (seriously!), awesome feature set, and remote control, but upgrading and moving on is the way of audiophiles.


----------



## Whitigir

dcguy73 said:


> Well, the day finally came...I upgraded from the LKS DAC to the KTE Holo Audio Spring L3 DAC. While the LKS MH-DA004 DAC punches way above its weight and price, the (2X the price) KTE L3 DAC is an improvement. Much more of a lateral move than a step ahead, as the KTE is an R2R DAC and the LKS is a Delta Sigma DAC. Not easy to compare one to the other -- they're like apples and oranges.
> 
> So, once I retrieve the (giant, double) shipping box from storage this weekend, I will be looking to sell my (single-owner) LKS MH-DA004 DAC. I will be sad to part with its rock-solid build (seriously!), awesome feature set, and remote control, but upgrading and moving on is the way of audiophiles.



Sound like sidegrading to another different sonic signature 

How is the Vertical rendering on the HS vs the 004 ?


----------



## dcguy73

Whitigir said:


> Sound like sidegrading to another different sonic signature
> 
> How is the Vertical rendering on the HS vs the 004 ?



Sidegrading is a good way to put it! 

When you say vertical rendering, I assume you mean the soundstage? 

I just received the HS DAC last night, so I don't have a good sense of its soundstaging capabilities yet. I'll get back to you on that after I've had some more time to listen.


----------



## Whitigir

dcguy73 said:


> Sidegrading is a good way to put it!
> 
> When you say vertical rendering, I assume you mean the soundstage?
> 
> I just received the HS DAC last night, so I don't have a good sense of its soundstaging capabilities yet. I'll get back to you on that after I've had some more time to listen.


Yes, I have been searching for something that has better vertical sense than 004.  The Z axis


----------



## rettib2001

Hi everyone.

100 hours of listening on the clock and still really enjoying enjoying what I'm hearing.

I searched this thread to see if anybody had replaced the fuse in the 004 but there wasn't much information.

I think one person changed it for a fairly expensive fuse but as it turns out prefers the stock one!

Any thoughts on the matter?


----------



## Whitigir

rettib2001 said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> 100 hours of listening on the clock and still really enjoying enjoying what I'm hearing.
> 
> ...



I don’t think it matter at all.  I tried other expensive fuses but no changes in my system.  Cables is another story


----------



## aggielaw (Apr 5, 2018)

Regarding the fuse, I have a Synergistic Red in at the moment.  My initial impression holds: a little more body (specifically in the midbass) and a more coherent, but shrunken, soundstage.  Soundstage is still very good, just not amazing as it is with the stock fuse.  The problem with the stock fuse soundstage is on some recordings certain instruments will get out of hand and appear very far away from where they probably should.  I don't mind an exaggerated soundstage, but I remember once hearing a guitar higher on the Z axis (see Whitigir's recent post) than the singer's voice and far off to the right.  I wish I could remember which recording that was so others could see if they have the same experience.

I will probably go back to the stock fuse when I have time to sit and listen for a while again.  I'm tempted to try a Mundorf fuse in the LKS.  If I do that I'll report back soon.


----------



## Whitigir

Did you upgrade your interconnect cables yet though


----------



## dcguy73 (Apr 5, 2018)

rettib2001 said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> 100 hours of listening on the clock and still really enjoying enjoying what I'm hearing.
> 
> ...



I found that the LKS DAC responds well to power conditioning and power cables. I have a PS Audio P5 power plant, but you don't have to go that far. Any power supply improvements will make a noticeable difference in the quality of the DAC's output.


----------



## rettib2001

Whitigir said:


> I don’t think it matter at all.  I tried other expensive fuses but no changes in my system.  Cables is another story



Great, that'll save me a few euros!


----------



## rettib2001

aggielaw said:


> Regarding the fuse, I have a Synergistic Red in at the moment.  My initial impression holds: a little more body (specifically in the midbass) and a more coherent, but shrunken, soundstage.  Soundstage is still very good, just not amazing as it is with the stock fuse.  The problem with the stock fuse soundstage is on some recordings certain instruments will get out of hand and appear very far away from where they probably should.  I don't mind an exaggerated soundstage, but I remember once hearing a guitar higher on the Z axis (see Whitigir's recent post) than the singer's voice and far off to the right.  I wish I could remember which recording that was so others could see if they have the same experience.
> 
> I will probably go back to the stock fuse when I have time to sit and listen for a while again.  I'm tempted to try a Mundorf fuse in the LKS.  If I do that I'll report back soon.



I think it may have been your previous posts about the Synergistic Red that got me thinking about fuses. 
I think I'll put off doing any tests but I'll keep an eye in case you report back about the mundorf fuse.


----------



## rettib2001

Whitigir said:


> Did you upgrade your interconnect cables yet though



Yes all interconnects are optimised, I agree about their importance.

The curiosity surrounding fuses is just something that's been on my mind as a final push in terms of getting the best (subjective) sound.


----------



## ti5002000

Personally,i don´t use a fuse in the mh-004.i replaced the inlet with an furutech ac 1501 Rhodium.I don´t like gold inlets and also prefer the sound without fuses.I am using the dac connected to an isolation transformer.i know for some this could mean danger (using it without a fuse) ,so this is my personal preference.
In my opinion ,the sound is much better than with the standart iec.
Also i use the external usb that lks does,by i2s.This has very good regulators for the power supply ,which is very important.In my opinion the sound is much better with it.
It was a very nice surprise .If you can buy it, I think you won´t regret it.
The dac is stunning ,as it is right now ,in my opinion.


----------



## Whitigir

ti5002000 said:


> Personally,i don´t use a fuse in the mh-004.i replaced the inlet with an furutech ac 1501 Rhodium.I don´t like gold inlets and also prefer the sound without fuses.I am using the dac connected to an isolation transformer.i know for some this could mean danger (using it without a fuse) ,so this is my personal preference.
> In my opinion ,the sound is much better than with the standart iec.
> Also i use the external usb that lks does,by i2s.This has very good regulators for the power supply ,which is very important.In my opinion the sound is much better with it.
> It was a very nice surprise .If you can buy it, I think you won´t regret it.
> The dac is stunning ,as it is right now ,in my opinion.



Well, there is still a circuit breaker in the main panel, may want to hardwire it too .  I love cables, and I have spent a fortune on them, and I can tell the differences.  But there gotta be some threshold that I respect, and that is electricity and it raw power


----------



## ti5002000

No ,i will leave that as it is  The isolation transformer offers some protection and also improved the sound,because it is clean power.I also have pure silver cables made by me ,almost in all my system.


----------



## aggielaw

ti5002000, I'm interested in this external box you mention. Are you referring to the Singxer I2S unit, or something else?


----------



## Whitigir

ti5002000 said:


> No ,i will leave that as it is  The isolation transformer offers some protection and also improved the sound,because it is clean power.I also have pure silver cables made by me ,almost in all my system.



I definitely agree with all Silver cables.  I do the same , large AWG and solid core with OCC connectors


----------



## ti5002000

aggielaw said:


> ti5002000, I'm interested in this external box you mention. Are you referring to the Singxer I2S unit, or something else?




https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/l-k-s-audio-usb-100-usb-audio-interface-pcm384-dsd512.html


----------



## ti5002000

Whitigir said:


> I definitely agree with all Silver cables.  I do the same , large AWG and solid core with OCC connectors


----------



## aggielaw

Drat!  My ultraRendu is USB output only, and it looks like I'd need a front end with coax out to use the LKS USB-100 device.  Out of curiosity, do you use LKS' recommended linear power supply as well?

Thanks!


----------



## ti5002000

No,i use one that i made.



aggielaw said:


> Drat!  My ultraRendu is USB output only, and it looks like I'd need a front end with coax out to use the LKS USB-100 device.  Out of curiosity, do you use LKS' recommended linear power supply as well?
> 
> Thanks!


----------



## xiamen

ti5002000 said:


> No,i use one that i made.





ti5002000 said:


> No,i use one that i made.


I would think lks usb-100 is similar to my Singxer SU-1, takes usb output.


----------



## dcguy73 (Apr 6, 2018)

aggielaw said:


> Drat!  My ultraRendu is USB output only, and it looks like I'd need a front end with coax out to use the LKS USB-100 device.  Out of curiosity, do you use LKS' recommended linear power supply as well?
> 
> Thanks!



The Singxer SU-1 has a a low-noise voltage regulator just like the LKS USB-100, though it has an internal power supply. However, it has a USB input, unlike the LKS device. There are parts for SU-1 mods available that allow it to work with an external power supply (see Kitsune Hifi for parts) and Kitsune also does its own mods package on the SU-1 to improve the internal power supply as well as other internal components.

I used a KTE-modded Singxer SU-1 with my LKS DAC with very good results. I now use it with my new DAC, also with very good results.

I'm sure the LKS device can also get the job done, though I've never used one. When I bought the LKS DAC from Shenzhen Audio, Kerwin from SA recommended the Singxer over the LKS device.


----------



## rettib2001

dcguy73 said:


> The Singxer SU-1 has a low-noise voltage regulator just like the LKS USB-100, though it has an internal power supply. There are parts for mods available that allow it to work with an external power supply (see Kitsune Hifi for parts) and Kitsune also does its own mods package on the SU-1 to improve the internal power supply as well as other internal components.
> 
> I used a KTE-modded Singxer SU-1 with my LKS DAC with very good results. I now use it with my new DAC, also with very good results.
> 
> I'm sure the LKS device can also get the job done, though I've never used one. When I bought the LKS DAC from Shenzhen Audio, Kerwin from SA recommended the Singxer over the LKS device.



Is the general feeling that these outboard devices are both better than the on-board amanero usb?


----------



## dcguy73

rettib2001 said:


> Is the general feeling that these outboard devices are both better than the on-board amanero usb?



I can only speak for myself. I paid extra to get the upgraded Amanero USB board, but using the SU-1 to connect to the LKS via I2S sounded better to me than using the Amanero USB connection.


----------



## rettib2001

dcguy73 said:


> I can only speak for myself. I paid extra to get the upgraded Amanero USB board, but using the SU-1 to connect to the LKS via I2S sounded better to me than using the Amanero USB connection.



Haha, I wish I hadn't asked.... Really want to try it now.


----------



## Whitigir

rettib2001 said:


> Is the general feeling that these outboard devices are both better than the on-board amanero usb?



My bet is probably so.  I use Walkman and with it dedicated Dock.  It is like a special regen and reclock from Sony and Walkman Eco system.  There is a huge improvements in comparison to a simple direct WM to USB connection


----------



## rettib2001

Whitigir said:


> My bet is probably so.  I use Walkman and with it dedicated Dock.  It is like a special regen and reclock from Sony and Walkman Eco system.  There is a huge improvements in comparison to a simple direct WM to USB connection



I might have to look into to getting one then. 

Seems like there is a bit of a modding community around the su-1, with some manufacturers directly  selling premodified versions (kitsune as mentioned by _dcguy73 and also magni)._


----------



## Whitigir

rettib2001 said:


> I might have to look into to getting one then.
> 
> Seems like there is a bit of a modding community around the su-1, with some manufacturers directly  selling premodified versions (kitsune as mentioned by _dcguy73 and also magni)._


You will find modifications kind of folks everywhere around you

Simply because mass productions is for ease of productions.  Manufacturers adhere to the best and most efficient way to make the product.


----------



## Lennym

Over on the LKS 003 thread b0bb recommends improved performance from the Amanero board by installing a separate transformer for it within the 004 case.  So the board is disconnected from the existing transformer (2 small screws) and connected to the new one and is then completely independent, apparently simulating the outboard units.  I don't think anyone there has yet reported back any results.  But it seems like an easy and inexpensive mod.  IIRC no specific parts had been recommended.


----------



## gruvytune

ti5002000 said:


> https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/l-k-s-audio-usb-100-usb-audio-interface-pcm384-dsd512.html


If you talk to Jinbo, he'll give you some insight as to why the external USB and I2S is not worth the extra hardware and expense.  The upgraded Amanero USB input is hard to improve upon.


----------



## Lennym

Furthermore, if you are contemplating an external USB to I2S (Singxer or LKS) you should read Post #729 on the LKS 003 thread.  b0bb explains why it might not work as well as the upgrade Amanero board we already have.


----------



## ti5002000 (Apr 9, 2018)

I used to have the upgraded usb board and the respective power supply....Let me say that i was desappointed with the sound for more than one reason...i changed for the external unit because the internal broke and i got a good deal in a used the external unit.
The purpose of having a separated power supply is the ability of having ultra low noise and efective power regulation ,among other things.
Well my upgraded amaneiro board had a piece of crap opamp of the 80's for that job.
(some internal have the lt3042 which is much better).
how can this compare to one of the lowest noise chips available the TPS7A4700?no way...
Also the lks external unit has one regulator for each the board and the crystek.
This reduces croostalk ,because that is the purpose of having independent power supplies.
Those who have a dual mono power supply in their amps know what i am saying...also our dac is dual mono..
So i wont ever return to my internal usb ....The sound now is better ...the bass is no more boomy and a little blurry..is tight and cleaner...also the separation has improved and the detail also..
this is my opinion.Each one to their own.


----------



## xiamen

ti5002000 said:


> Furthermore, if you are contemplating an external USB to I2S (Singxer or LKS) you should read Post #729 on the LKS 003 thread.  b0bb explains why it might not work as well as the upgrade Amanero board we already have.



Am interested in Jinbo's insight on this. Will appreciate if you post that rather than ask us to talk to him. My reason for using the Singxer SU-1 is not just internal DDC vs external DDC plus I2S. I prefer the new XMOS xu-208 to Amanero. Its new architecture allows for faster processing power of 1000 MIPs. In my case, I believe it helps with DSD upsampling (I can adjust ASIO buffer latency to under 2 m second). On top of that, it's not just hardware, Singxer did spend a lot of effort in improving the algorithm over the original firmware. As for post #729, my takes are:


LKS paid little attention to the I2S interfaces, most of the logic is powered by the slow and somewhat noisy LM317, the LM317 is a huge step backward from the LT317 used on the 003. Take a look at how PSAudio implemented I2S and compare to see how I2S is poorly done on the LKS.
I do not see any major changes in the I2S section between the 003 and 004 and expect the same kinds of problems with the SU-1, namely clicks and sometimes loud bangs when switching sample rates or mode changing between PCM and DSD:

That doesn't sound good for anyone who uses 004's I2S. I did read elsewhere that "317's are exactly the same IC in different packages and tolerances. LT is theoretically a slightly tighter tolerance but is only made by linear technology as opposed to the multitude of standard LM317 sources. How much is marketing hype is unclear. Naim use the LM317K which comes in a TO3 case which facilitates better heatsinking but they select them for performance. Very few fail these days. In practice the C section heat sinking is vastly OTT for any load a Naim component places on the regs which never even get slightly warm so for DIY purposes 317T's in the TO126 package are perfectly fine with just those small TO126 heat sinks, and why wouldn't you buy the slightly higher spec ones since the price difference is minimal?". So, I'm intrigued why LKS will use LT317 but inferior LM317 for I2S if there are minimal price difference. In my listening experience, there are less sample rate switching problem for Singxer SU-1 than the upgraded internal Amanero. When I got my SU-1, they have the latest DSD512 driver released December 17 which according to the owner forums is a substantial improvement over the previous driver in sound quality. And that's one other reason I choose Xmos over Amanero who has a confusing versioning and timetable  for their releases.

Link below describes how the SU-1 does not play nicely with the LKS 003.
https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-25#post-12927931

That's just a matter of setting the correct dip switches and firmware version for the SU-1.

The very same seller in your link blamed the LKS and walked away leaving the customer high and dry.
Suggest you check to see if the seller eventually made it right for the customer.

LKS utterly messed up the enhanced USB interface implementation on the 004.

The USB thing is powered by a secondary winding off the digital transformer, creating a direct path for digital noise from the host + the USB board right into to the DAC. Toroids have very wide bandwidth giving the noise a very low impedance path coupled through the secondary windings, this bypassed the interwinding screen on the transformer rendering it useless.
LKS did not insulate the USB input from the rest of the DAC metal work, this joined the ground on the host and the DAC completely bypassing the galvanic noise isolator.

This amateurish blunder robbed the 004 of a large chunk of its potential.

The fix is simple, power the USB board with its separate transformer with an interwinding screen between the primary and secondary windings and most importantly insulate the USB input from the rest of the metalwork.

Is that really such a "simple" fix?


Ultimately, I guess its what your listening experience tells you !!!


----------



## Lennym

xiamen said:


> The fix is simple, power the USB board with its separate transformer with an interwinding screen between the primary and secondary windings and most importantly insulate the USB input from the rest of the metalwork.



Don't understand the "interwinding screen".  Can you explain please?  Do you know if the Antek An-0107 - 10VA 7V Transformer will do?
b0bb also suggests that an "RFI filter should be used on the AC input, its job is to prevent noise from the USB interface leaking into the AC mains."  Do you think that's an issue and if so can you recommend such a filter?

Thanks.


----------



## xiamen

Lennym said:


> Don't understand the "interwinding screen".  Can you explain please?  Do you know if the Antek An-0107 - 10VA 7V Transformer will do?
> b0bb also suggests that an "RFI filter should be used on the AC input, its job is to prevent noise from the USB interface leaking into the AC mains."  Do you think that's an issue and if so can you recommend such a filter?
> 
> Thanks.


That was just a direct quote from post #729 LK003 forum you referred me to. My only comment was the "simple fix" suggested in the post  does not sound that simple. Based on the requirement for the LKS USB-100 (using the same Amanero module) and the spec from http://www.tec-sol.com/products/elec/amanero/combo384-D_ts.pdf, the voltage should be 5V and no more than 5.5. 
For filter on AC input, you may look at a power conditioner? Mine is pretty old. I think it's Teradak but I doubt they sell them anymore. They can cost up to a small fortune but you may start with something like https://www.ebay.com/itm/YAQIN-ML-1...360680&hash=item3cc5efe5b7:g:oD8AAOSwr6FaKmJh.


----------



## xiamen

Lennym said:


> Don't understand the "interwinding screen".  Can you explain please?  Do you know if the Antek An-0107 - 10VA 7V Transformer will do?
> b0bb also suggests that an "RFI filter should be used on the AC input, its job is to prevent noise from the USB interface leaking into the AC mains."  Do you think that's an issue and if so can you recommend such a filter?
> 
> Thanks.


BTW, does he say "noise from the USB interface leaking into the AC mains"? I would have thought "noise from the AC mains leaking into the  USB interface" sounds more the likely issue. If you use a separate linear power supply for the USB interface, that should not happen, I think.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 10, 2018)

A point of clarification, Post #729 in the 003 thread was in response to another modder, someone with electronics knowledge.  I tend to keep mod related comments out of this thread given its mixed audience
The really simple fix is to insulate the usb socket from the metal chassis, LKS starting doing this in the newer units they are shipping.

Off the shelf RFI filters are designed to prevent equipment noise from getting out into the mains in order to meet certification for FCC Class A/B computing devices, for example. These are the ones commonly available from Mouser or Digikey.

USB is very noisy.

A interwinding screen is a copper foil screen between the primary and secondary of a transformer, this virtually eliminates the noise from getting out.

Small transformers such as the 10VA Antec I mentioned in similar posts are usually not made with an interwinding screen to reduce cost and hence the need for an RFI filter, something that will block noise in the 1MHz-40MHz band
44.1k/24 stereo translates to a 2MHz bitstream, 768k/24 sampling is about 36MHz.


----------



## Lodwales81

How do people think the Lks 004 will perform with the Schiit Eitr I have no interest in dsd I just have lossless files and use Tidal hi-fi then vinyl for my older collection


----------



## Paul Staples (Apr 16, 2018)

what is 'best'?

*LKS MH-DA004*
Wadia 121
Musical Paradise MP-D2 AK4490
Teddy Pardo TeddyDAC 192kHz
Blacknote DAC30 DAC
Chord 2Qute

I would have made a new topic, but I don't have sufficient privileges to start a new thread at the time of writing/posting this message?


----------



## Paul Staples (Apr 18, 2018)

...bump!!!

no answer from anyone? (to my last message)...

having read the whole of this thread, Ii have decided to pull the trigger and purchase one of these and give it a go, but if I don't like it, I'm worried I won't make my money back (because I am not rich!).

I've had:

Arcam miniblink
M-DAC (audiolab)
Cary 100-T
Chord Hugo
Chord 2Qute
MB-P1
Asus Xonar Essence STX PCIe (Burson Opamps)
Asus Xonar Essence STX II PCIe

...can the L.K.S. be regarded as an upgrade to my previous DAC's and why?

Cheers in advance!


----------



## Lodwales81

Please let me know how you get on with unit and how you rate it I'm constantly adding then removing this item from my shopping basket on Amazon as I'm afraid its all hype especially when the new chord quetest is the same price. Good luck mate I hope the unit it as good as the hype if so I will be purchasing a unit 




Paul Staples said:


> ...bump!!!
> 
> no answer from anyone? (to my last message)...
> 
> ...


----------



## Lennym

Lodwales, I'd like to know what you mean by "hype" for the LKS.  Last I looked "hype" was "extravagant or intensive publicity or promotion" which the LKS has not at all.  Hardly anyone knows about it; it's all only by word of mouth.  For hype consider Schiit (hype even in the name) or PS Audio for openers.

To Paul I would simply say that the number of LKS users is very small and the number of competing DACs is in the thousands, and you have listed some older DACs as well.  In any event it's too late for you since you've ordered.  I'm sure readers of this thread await your evaluation, especially as compared to other DACs you have owned.

FYI, there's a shorter thread about the LKS 004 over on Audiogon, and another on Computer Audiophile where some comparisons are made IIRC.


----------



## Lodwales81

Evening, I'm simply mean that there are some great reviews for this unit but also a few negative. I'm very tempted to hit the button on  this but I feel that it potentially could be a bit of a gamble and at £1000 + where as dacs such as chord and schiit have a much bigger market, and maybe only to me that offers a bit more security, however I just find the Lks more and more tempting. 



Lennym said:


> Lodwales, I'd like to know what you mean by "hype" for the LKS.  Last I looked "hype" was "extravagant or intensive publicity or promotion" which the LKS has not at all.  Hardly anyone knows about it; it's all only by word of mouth.  For hype consider Schiit (hype even in the name) or PS Audio for openers.
> 
> To Paul I would simply say that the number of LKS users is very small and the number of competing DACs is in the thousands, and you have listed some older DACs as well.  In any event it's too late for you since you've ordered.  I'm sure readers of this thread await your evaluation, especially as compared to other DACs you have owned.
> 
> FYI, there's a shorter thread about the LKS 004 over on Audiogon, and another on Computer Audiophile where some comparisons are made IIRC.


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> Please let me know how you get on with unit and how you rate it I'm constantly adding then removing this item from my shopping basket on Amazon as I'm afraid its all hype especially when the new chord quetest is the same price. Good luck mate I hope the unit it as good as the hype if so I will be purchasing a unit


Thank man! I'll give my initial impressions after a few days burn-in!


----------



## Paul Staples

Lennym said:


> Lodwales, I'd like to know what you mean by "hype" for the LKS.  Last I looked "hype" was "extravagant or intensive publicity or promotion" which the LKS has not at all.  Hardly anyone knows about it; it's all only by word of mouth.  For hype consider Schiit (hype even in the name) or PS Audio for openers.
> 
> To Paul I would simply say that the number of LKS users is very small and the number of competing DACs is in the thousands, and you have listed some older DACs as well.  In any event it's too late for you since you've ordered.  I'm sure readers of this thread await your evaluation, especially as compared to other DACs you have owned.
> 
> FYI, there's a shorter thread about the LKS 004 over on Audiogon, and another on Computer Audiophile where some comparisons are made IIRC.


...thanks for the referalls Lenny, I'll check those out as well.


----------



## Whitigir

Lks-004 is and does not lack bass.  It is actually on a warmer side of the deal.  Just give it the correct cables for bass and pair it with the correct gear for bass, and you have crazy bass-head level system in the while still high-end class.

Take my SR-009 and KG T2 amplifier for example, I am using XF2 quad tubes, and e88cc SQ NOS.  I have to use silver interconect cables to enjoy it performances, because if I use Litz UPOcC interconnect, my system will be a bass head system, period


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> Evening, I'm simply mean that there are some great reviews for this unit* but also a few negative*. I'm very tempted to hit the button on  this but I feel that it potentially could be a bit of a gamble and at £1000 + where as dacs such as chord and schiit have a much bigger market, and maybe only to me that offers a bit more security, however I just find the Lks more and more tempting.



I know what you mean: "music_man", is a good example.


----------



## gruvytune

Lodwales81 said:


> Evening, I'm simply mean that there are some great reviews for this unit but also a few negative. I'm very tempted to hit the button on  this but I feel that it potentially could be a bit of a gamble and at £1000 + where as dacs such as chord and schiit have a much bigger market, and maybe only to me that offers a bit more security, however I just find the Lks more and more tempting.



I've had this unit about a month now. I remain impressed by it. I think at this level of detail and accuracy, it's difficult to start saying one is "better" than another.
I can't find what I can call flaws.  Playback of high resolution flac or PCM files exhibit great detail with full and accurate reproduction in bass through mid-range - yet there is lack of glare and sibilance that I have found in most other DACs in the past at whatever cost that I could not simply attribute to the recording.
I'm simply grateful to have taken others' reports seriously enough to buy one, because I was highly reluctant.   This DAC is a keeper and I look forward to hearing other careful reviews of it and any direct comparison to anything at it's first level or higher.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Lks-004 is and does not lack bass.  It is actually on a warmer side of the deal.  Just give it the correct cables for bass and pair it with the correct gear for bass, and you have crazy bass-head level system in the while still high-end class.
> 
> Take my SR-009 and KG T2 amplifier for example, I am using XF2 quad tubes, and e88cc SQ NOS.  I have to use silver interconect cables to enjoy it performances, because if I use Litz UPOcC interconnect, my system will be a bass head system, period



Hi there - whiti !!
...nice re-assuring comments & positive. I have never doubted the bass capability though? Or was that directed at someone else? Cheers!


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> Hi there - whiti !!
> ...nice re-assuring comments & positive. I have never doubted the bass capability though? Or was that directed at someone else? Cheers!



That is aimed toward those impressions in other forums which were referred few posts ago.



gruvytune said:


> I've had this unit about a month now. I remain impressed by it. I think at this level of detail and accuracy, it's difficult to start saying one is "better" than another.
> I can't find what I can call flaws.  Playback of high resolution flac or PCM files exhibit great detail with full and accurate reproduction in bass through mid-range - yet there is lack of glare and sibilance that I have found in most other DACs in the past at whatever cost that I could not simply attribute to the recording.
> I'm simply grateful to have taken others' reports seriously enough to buy one, because I was highly reluctant.   This DAC is a keeper and I look forward to hearing other careful reviews of it and any direct comparison to anything at it's first level or higher.



There is no glares in the 004, and the sound signature over all is very musical and fluidly.  The fidelity is top notch.


----------



## Paul Staples

gruvytune said:


> I've had this unit about a month now. I remain impressed by it. I think at this level of detail and accuracy, it's difficult to start saying one is "better" than another.
> I can't find what I can call flaws.  Playback of high resolution flac or PCM files exhibit great detail with full and accurate reproduction in bass through mid-range - yet there is lack of glare and sibilance that I have found in most other DACs in the past at whatever cost that I could not simply attribute to the recording.
> I'm simply grateful to have taken others' reports seriously enough to buy one, because I was highly reluctant.   This DAC is a keeper and I look forward to hearing other careful reviews of it and any direct comparison to anything at it's first level or higher.



Hj gruvy!

Again, extremely positive review! I've been walking round all day with butterflies in my stomach - wondering if I've just made a big huge mistake! And I won't know for another 5-7 days! LOL


----------



## Paul Staples (Apr 16, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> That is aimed toward those impressions in other forums which were referred few posts ago.
> There is no glares in the 004, and the sound signature over all is very musical and fluidly.  The fidelity is top notch.



OK - Cool!

I'm getting this from kvscorporation on a 'best offer' listing on eBay.

"AND!" ~ I WILL BE CHECKING
the 9038 heatsinks
the USB Isolation
& the 'hot' transistors re-location.

It has the Italian Amanero USB module.


----------



## littlexx26

how this (and all i think) dac sounds is heavily cable dependent. i found this 004 is very sensitive to the interconnect cable to the amp. now i am using cerious technologies graphene matix. nothing is lack. from low bass to high treble. before i use oyaide 102sc which sounds good but lack body in human voice. so if you find yours 004 is lacking in some departments, change cable first before you make conclusion.


----------



## gruvytune

littlexx26 said:


> how this (and all i think) dac sounds is heavily cable dependent. i found this 004 is very sensitive to the interconnect cable to the amp. now i am using cerious technologies graphene matix. nothing is lack. from low bass to high treble. before i use oyaide 102sc which sounds good but lack body in human voice. so if you find yours 004 is lacking in some departments, change cable first before you make conclusion.



You're not using a preamp?


----------



## littlexx26

gruvytune said:


> You're not using a preamp?


i am using int. amp


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> i am using int. amp


Technically, the 004 has digital volume control and allows you to bypass a preamp. I haven't tried that myself.


----------



## Whitigir (Apr 17, 2018)

I use 004 as pre-amp with it volume control and it is fine.  I found that by passing my amplifier is a better choice, because I can use the remote to adjust volume on 004.  It also sounds better when my amplifier is by passed.  Yes, he 004 is flagship and high-end.  It is not only affected by Interconnect cables, it also is affected by power cables and usb cables.

My cables is as follow

Powercables: Pure Solid Silver
Interconect Cables : Pure Solid Silver
Usb cables : Pure Solid Silver 

I confirm to you all that everything cables related will affect the 004 performances


----------



## xiamen

Lennym said:


> Lodwales, I'd like to know what you mean by "hype" for the LKS.  Last I looked "hype" was "extravagant or intensive publicity or promotion" which the LKS has not at all.  Hardly anyone knows about it; it's all only by word of mouth.  For hype consider Schiit (hype even in the name) or PS Audio for openers.
> 
> To Paul I would simply say that the number of LKS users is very small and the number of competing DACs is in the thousands, and you have listed some older DACs as well.  In any event it's too late for you since you've ordered.  I'm sure readers of this thread await your evaluation, especially as compared to other DACs you have owned.
> 
> FYI, there's a shorter thread about the LKS 004 over on Audiogon, and another on Computer Audiophile where some comparisons are made IIRC.



It's not the first time people say 004 is grossly hyped. Yes, the "hype" is only word of mouth from 004 owners. You could say given the 004 had been compared favorably with dacs may times it's  price, there is some hype there. For example, I remember someone compared the 004 to Chord Dave and thinks they are at the same level. Assuming Chord priced their lineup accordingly, the Qutest will be many levels below the Dave (and therefore many levels below the 004?). I am sure Chord owners will be very unhappy with that opinion and believes the 004 is hyped.


----------



## Paul Staples

littlexx26 said:


> how this (and all i think) dac sounds is heavily cable dependent. i found this 004 is very sensitive to the interconnect cable to the amp. now i am using cerious technologies graphene matix. nothing is lack. from low bass to high treble. before i use oyaide 102sc which sounds good but lack body in human voice. so if you find yours 004 is lacking in some departments, change cable first before you make conclusion.


good advice!


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I use 004 as pre-amp with it volume control and it is fine.  I found that by passing my amplifier is a better choice, because I can use the remote to adjust volume on 004.  It also sounds better when my amplifier is by passed.  Yes, he 004 is flagship and high-end.  It is not only affected by Interconnect cables, it also is affected by power cables and usb cables.
> 
> My cables is as follow
> 
> ...



valued contribution/ good reading!!


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> It's not the first time people say 004 is grossly hyped. Yes, the "hype" is only word of mouth from 004 owners. You could say given the 004 had been compared favorably with dacs may times it's  price, there is some hype there. For example, I remember someone compared the 004 to Chord Dave and thinks they are at the same level. Assuming Chord priced their lineup accordingly, the Qutest will be many levels below the Dave (and therefore many levels below the 004?). I am sure Chord owners will be very unhappy with that opinion and believes the 004 is hyped.



I've just ordered this 004 and it's the same with other Hi-Fi seperates too! My amp is considered to be on the same level as those costing £6000+, and the same is true of my speakers also.


----------



## Paul Staples (Apr 24, 2018)

Latest Config:



*John Wood *(‘one-off’ custom made)* KT88 Valve Amp*, with:
http://jwoodaudio.com/
http://www.retrosellers.com/features577.htm

KT88's * 4 Russian

6SN7’s * 2 Russian

ECC81’s * 2 NOS Mullard (GB)


*Mono Pulse ‘A’ Loudspeakers, *(Allan Hendry).
http://www.monopulse.co.uk/quest.html

REL Stampede Subwoofer.


Chord 2Qute Dac.

M2Tech Hi-Face 2 RCA USB to S/PDIF (co-axial) converter.


Asus (based) desktop PC:

Asus ROG strix z270g Intel lga 1151 + Asus ROG Strix GeForce GTX 1050 (2GB) + ASUS x24 DVDCD Re-Writer with M-DISC Support DRW-24D5M + Intel® Core™ i7-6700K 6700K - 4GHz Quad-Core 6th Gen. Socket 1151 Processor + Kingston SSDNow M.2 240gb SATA G2 Drive SM2280S3G2240G Solid State Drive + Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K + Thermaltake 600w Tough Power SFX PSU 80+ GOLD + Lian Li PC-C50B Black Aluminium Micro ATX Media Centre HTPC Case. Silverstone SST-AR06 Argon PWM CPU Cooler 92mm Fan. Nanoxia Deep Silence 120mm PWM Ultra-Quiet PC Fan, 650-1500 RPM (x3).


The Missing Link Ultra-Pure System ~ EPS-100 ~Audiophile Silver Un-switched Double Wall Socket +

APC ‘SurgeArrest’ Surge protector - PM1W-UK (Schneider), + AG500P Power Inspired mains – ‘pure sine wave’ re-generator.


Sennheiser HD 558 headset.


Interconnects: Chord Odyssey 2 speaker cable, QED Reference Audio 1 RCA/Phono (red), QED Reference Coaxial/RCA (purple), Audioquest Neutrik Speakon flx-slip 14-4 subwoofer cable (for REL). Meterware ViaBlue x25 silver power cables + Martin Kaiser 10a C14 IEC Male mains cable connectors silver, + MCRU SILVER IEC female mains power connectors, + silver plated ‘UK mains plug’ MK 655 audio grade (3 pin) with Bussmann Gold fuse.


Graphic EQ32 Studio PRO 2017v, Enhancer 0.17v, Foobar2000 1.3.16v, M2 Tech M-USB Audio Control Panel 3.26.0v (hi-Face TWO UAC2), VB-Audio ASIO Bridge - Hi-Fi Cable Control Panel 1.0.0.7v, Windows Volume Mixer, Windows Sound (panel). MS Windows 10/64 bit.

(Samsung UE40ES7000).


----------



## rettib2001

Paul Staples said:


> OK - Cool!
> 
> I'm getting this from kvscorporation on a 'best offer' listing on eBay.
> 
> ...



Hi,
Just thought I'd chime in as I got my mine from them as well. 

Really happy with it, and the customer service from Kamen (must be the guy who owns the company) was/is great.


----------



## Lennym

xiamen said:


> That was just a direct quote from post #729 LK003 forum you referred me to. My only comment was the "simple fix" suggested in the post  does not sound that simple. Based on the requirement for the LKS USB-100 (using the same Amanero module) and the spec from http://www.tec-sol.com/products/elec/amanero/combo384-D_ts.pdf, the voltage should be 5V and no more than 5.5.
> <snip>


Thank you for this informative post.  Perhaps then the AnTek AN-0105 10VA 5V transformer (http://www.antekinc.com/an-0105-10va-5v-transformer/) would be perfect. Problem though is that I don't believe anyone has done this mod on the LKS 004 and reported any favorable results.  Though if one can identify an appropriate RFI filter it seems simple enough.


----------



## rikm

...a brief comment wrt the LKS Dac4 in my own system for the posters that were asking about the sound quality

The D4 replaced a Gustard X12/U12 and I do not have a lot of other DAC hands-on to reference, but the difference is apparent and to my ears very positive...the LKS is feeding the same old tube rig, but fwiw I have switched it to triode mode from linear...the new D4 seems to reveal more detail and clarity than the X12 driving the same SF Cremona-M speakers

...as I said, just my impressions


----------



## Paul Staples (Apr 20, 2018)

rettib2001 said:


> Hi,
> Just thought I'd chime in as I got my mine from them as well.
> 
> Really happy with it, and the customer service from Kamen (must be the guy who owns the company) was/is great.



..didn't arrive by estimated delivery date?

the name I got was: Zlatka Dimitrova


----------



## rettib2001

Paul Staples said:


> ..didn't arrive by estimated delivery date?
> 
> the name I got was: Zlatka Dimitrova



Arrived a day later than the eBay listing estimate.

I Don’t recognise that name but I presume that just means there a several people within the company.


----------



## Paul Staples

rettib2001 said:


> Arrived a day later than the eBay listing estimate.
> 
> I Don’t recognise that name but I presume that just means there a several people within the company.



I can always contact them if it it isn't here after the weekend.


----------



## xiamen

Lennym said:


> Thank you for this informative post.  Perhaps then the AnTek AN-0105 10VA 5V transformer (http://www.antekinc.com/an-0105-10va-5v-transformer/) would be perfect. Problem though is that I don't believe anyone has done this mod on the LKS 004 and reported any favorable results.  Though if one can identify an appropriate RFI filter it seems simple enough.


I saw this on ebay https://www.ebay.com.au/i/253533584126?chn=ps. This "Linear power supply DC 5V USB 5V for DAC with 25VA Talema transformer PSU" is from LKS themselves. The post mentioned this supports the Amanero USB interface. But of course it is a lot more expensive.


----------



## Lennym

xiamen said:


> I saw this on ebay https://www.ebay.com.au/i/253533584126?chn=ps. This "Linear power supply DC 5V USB 5V for DAC with 25VA Talema transformer PSU" is from LKS themselves. The post mentioned this supports the Amanero USB interface. But of course it is a lot more expensive.


That LPS provides DC power and is meant to accompany this LKS unit: https://www.ebay.com/itm/LKS-Amaner...Coaxial-out-DSD512-with-Crystek-/132095894242    The boards we have only require 5V AC.  the AC to DC conversion is done by the upper board of the upgraded USB to I2S Amanero boards.  So a simple transformer will do.  But a small RFI filter has been recommended to prevent noise from the USB interface leaking into the AC mains.  So far I haven't been able to identify an appropriate one.


----------



## rikm (Apr 21, 2018)

Lennym said:


> That LPS provides DC power and is meant to accompany this LKS unit: https://www.ebay.com/itm/LKS-Amaner...Coaxial-out-DSD512-with-Crystek-/132095894242    The boards we have only require 5V AC.  the AC to DC conversion is done by the upper board of the upgraded USB to I2S Amanero boards.  So a simple transformer will do.  But a small RFI filter has been recommended to prevent noise from the USB interface leaking into the AC mains.  So far I haven't been able to identify an appropriate one.



---

...there is also

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LKS-upgrad...709989?hash=item212ccf64a5:g:IbcAAOSwio1Znwq~


and


https://www.ebay.com/itm/LKS-Amaner...671402?hash=item1ed3471aea:g:J2IAAOSwgmJXz-SA


the PSU is also sold separately...looks like it has different caps, hmmm, maybe a roll of the dice for $50...


https://www.ebay.com/itm/HIFI-LT304...498378?hash=item2116be698a:g:TwgAAOSwFV9X1sr6


----------



## Paul Staples (Apr 24, 2018)

I think this will be of interest to new purchasers of the L.K.S. DAC, who have recently become interested in the various connection formats available today, i.e. which is best?

http://www.modelpromo.nl/PinkFaun_I2S_Bridge.htm
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/pinkfaun_i2s_bridge_e.html

I will be using the i2s for sure! I tried USB on my M-DAC & Cary 100t and it was awful both in terms of sound and the fact that the system kept on locking up and crashing; I quickly returned to good old RCA/Phono coax mode.


----------



## Lennym (Apr 22, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> *What is the best connection? USB, S/PDIF or I2S?*
> Most modern DAC's available today <snip>


You have reproduced most of a three year old "promotional" Dutch review of a product that is for sale without any attribution.  Quite inappropriate IMO.  Akin to "fake" news!   It's a waste of bandwidth and I think it should be deleted.  If you think the review has any merit, you should just cite it, giving its URL, and then only if you have something important to add, like personal experience with the LKS DAC.  Not to mention that b0bb, who should know, has criticized the I2S interface, the chip specifically, in the LKS DA-004 and IIRC no one yet has reported on a successful exterior interface with it.


----------



## Paul Staples

Lennym said:


> You have reproduced most of a three year old "promotional" Dutch review without any attribution.  Quite inappropriate IMO.  Akin to "fake" news!   It's a waste of bandwidth and I think it should be deleted.  If you think the review has any merit, you should just site it, giving its URL.



changed


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> I think this will be of interest to new purchasers of the L.K.S. DAC, who have recently become interested in the various connection formats available today, i.e. which is best?
> 
> http://www.modelpromo.nl/PinkFaun_I2S_Bridge.htm
> 
> I will be using the i2s for sure! I tried USB on my M-DAC & Cary 100t and it was awful both in terms of sound and the fact that the system kept on locking up and crashing; I quickly returned to good old RCA/Phono coax mode.



I had looked at PinkFaun sometime ago but decided against it. For a number of reasons. Firstly, the PinkFaun card are different for different dacs. So if you change dac, the card probably can't be used for your dac. Secondly, it only plays PCM, which doesn't suit me. Also, I'm somewhat skeptical with the technology. If it is so good, why only one small Dutch company promotes it (I can't find anyone else, may be some diy outfits). 

I think the usb connect had come a long way in the last few years especially with the advent of usb bridges. If you are happy with red book pcm and you are already down the coaxial path, take a look at http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/LKS_Mods.html. Besides, usb/spdif, theres is also of course usb/i2s.

You can have a look at https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/singxer-su-1-usb-bridge.21724/reviews. The internal Amanero is a usb/i2s bridge as well anyone.


----------



## Paul Staples (Apr 25, 2018)

xiamen said:


> I had looked at PinkFaun sometime ago but decided against it. For a number of reasons. Firstly, the PinkFaun card are different for different dacs. So if you change dac, the card probably can't be used for your dac. Secondly, it only plays PCM, which doesn't suit me. Also, I'm somewhat skeptical with the technology. If it is so good, why only one small Dutch company promotes it (I can't find anyone else, may be some diy outfits).
> 
> I think the usb connect had come a long way in the last few years especially with the advent of usb bridges. If you are happy with red book pcm and you are already down the coaxial path, take a look at http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/LKS_Mods.html. Besides, usb/spdif, theres is also of course usb/i2s.
> 
> You can have a look at https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/singxer-su-1-usb-bridge.21724/reviews. The internal Amanero is a usb/i2s bridge as well anyone.



So you didn't actually try it out then? If 'NO' ~ your argument is pure speculation and conjecture. I will be able to provide my opinion on actual usage of: USB/optical/phono-coax/i2s & AES side by side and back to back. My findings will only be my own opinion on what my ears detect though! (LOL!). If the i2s turns out to be 'crap' - I will definitely say so 'on-here', I don't support junk! Seems like an arbitrary attack on a "little" Dutch company! Have you seen their prices by the way? Scientific laboratory tests with oscilloscopes are very much the order of the day because you can't rely on human ears alone!! DOUBLE BLIND TESTS ARE REQUIRED to determine the results for certain!!  Please don't worry! ~ it's just a hobby, not that critical in the the overall scheme of things, but I do like and enjoy exploring every avenue as far as finances allow. Best Wishes!


----------



## Paul Staples

It seems my DAC purchased from Germany has been on a weird journey: Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, GERMANY?, UK > ...still not arrived and now DOUBLE the expected delivery date and an inconvenience having to stay home all this time. Hope it's worth the wait?


----------



## rettib2001

What are people's thoughts on the need for an external preamp with the 004?

I have a decent passive pre which I was on the point of upgrading (same brand but high quality stepped attenuator and separate volume control for each channel) when I decided to try removing it and to use the dac's digital volume control.

 At high (yet very listenable) volume it sounds great, dare I say better than with the preamp!

At lower volumes it does sounds less dynamic that with the preamp, I guess the digital volume control doesn't fare well at reduced volumes.

A new passive pre and relevant interconnects won't be cheap so I'd be curious to hear what your thoughts are.

Cheers


----------



## Paul Staples

rettib2001 said:


> What are people's thoughts on the need for an external preamp with the 004?
> 
> I have a decent passive pre which I was on the point of upgrading (same brand but high quality stepped attenuator and separate volume control for each channel) when I decided to try removing it and to use the dac's digital volume control.
> 
> ...



Keep it pure and simple i.e. more gadgets = more interference & distortion. For instance, I have PC feeding FLAC to the DAC > Power Amp.


----------



## Paul Staples (Apr 25, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> It seems my DAC purchased from Germany has been on a weird journey: Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, GERMANY?, UK > ...still not arrived and now DOUBLE the expected delivery date and an inconvenience having to stay home all this time. Hope it's worth the wait?



GOT IT!! - internal pics soon!


----------



## Lodwales81

Paul Staples said:


> GOT IT!! - internal pics soon!


Let me know how you get on, and your impressions mate


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> Let me know how you get on, and your impressions mate



no worries!


----------



## Paul Staples

l-k-s-audio-mh-da004/9038's heat sinked





l-k-s-audio-mh-da004 - The hot trannys underside re-location, heat sinked to chassis floor






l-k-s-audio-mh-da004/Italian Amanero USB socket, isolated from chassis


----------



## Lodwales81

Paul Staples said:


> l-k-s-audio-mh-da004/9038's heat sinked
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Paul Staples (Apr 26, 2018)

Hi 'LOW' ~


...thank you for your patience! I am not prepared to make a 'rash'/ill-informed guess at the quality. I have barely started to listen to this device that needs 'burning-in' first! As you yourself stated: "there is a lot of money riding on this purchase", and therefore I would presume that the last thing you would want is a hasty guess at the sound quality? I have only listened to a couple of albums once! I need to listen to: rock, vocal, classical, mood, atmospheric etc. to gain a better overall view of the '004's' capabilities, IN MY OPINION (ONLY!). Please make no attempt to 'rush' my verdict prematurely. I want to give you an accurate assessment and that takes time and patience! What I can say is this: - this device is no counterfeit Chinese junk! It has top quality components in critical areas and the circuit design appears to be well thought out with a 'top' fortress like build quality and assembly! Sound wise I would say initially and prematurely that it certainly 'holds its own' against anything I have previously owned and it is under-priced for what it offers you!

A cautionary word: please remember that I am not upgrading from a £5 mono AM radio! i.e. I consider that I am upgrading from a pretty ‘hi-end’ system already! With a view to diminishing returns (biggest bang for the buck) and all that – I don’t expect earth shattering ‘improvements’, but instead small minor and subtle changes in performance ‘here & there’! Marginal differences in perceived execution. A kind of ‘photo finish’ analysis – no less!

At this early stage: I am not motivated to return the L.K.S. on the grounds that it sounds massively inferior to any of my previous DAC’s (Inc. Chord 2Qute/ Cary 100t/ Wadia 321 & Weiss 202).


----------



## dcguy73

If anyone reading this thread is interested in a gently-used LKS MH-DA004 DAC, I am interested in selling mine. PM me. I haven't put up a for sale ad yet.


----------



## Whitigir (May 1, 2018)

So, I put up my lks004 for sale for a short period @ 1,100 included regular priority shipping in the US.  But I don’t think people appreciate this DAC much.  They probably don’t believe how good the 004 is.

Anyways, from the modification of my R2R7.  I now have brought it into the LKS-004.  Instead of having the Amanero module easily removable (which is not necessary), having it straight soldered on instead of Brass-Pins = the best conductivity.

I took pictures of internal shot too.  There are more on the underside, but who care ? I don’t think people care anyways.

So here is the result:

This is real sonical improvements.  Easy, and effective!  I have yet to tinkered with anything else.  There is no need to what I have observed by far.  I didn’t even bother for so long about the Brass Pins on the module.  Until now, the R2R7 spit in my ears that these Brass Pins are horrible

By the way, look at that Balanced/Discreted Analog output section! So awesome, so very compact, and yet so very complex, nice


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> So, I put up my lks004 for sale for a short period @ 1,100 included regular priority shipping in the US.  But I don’t think people appreciate this DAC much.  They probably don’t believe how good the 004 is.
> 
> Anyways, from the modification of my R2R7.  I now have brought it into the LKS-004.  Instead of having the Amanero module easily removable (which is not necessary), having it straight soldered on instead of Brass-Pins = the best conductivity.
> 
> ...



What about the 4 pins on the side of the Amanero board, don't they need replacing with soldered contacts?


----------



## bibo01

@Whitigir 
What exactly did you replace the present Amanero with?


----------



## Whitigir (May 1, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> What about the 4 pins on the side of the Amanero board, don't they need replacing with soldered contacts?


They are Pins for power supplies board on top to connect and power the Amanero.  No need fancy wires for powersupply.


bibo01 said:


> @Whitigir
> What exactly did you replace the present Amanero with?


Still the same upgraded Amanero, I just replaced the Brass Pins connectors toward the processor board into solid silver wires

The reason why is that I recently discovered about these Brass Pins that carries Data, clocks, and Vcc do affect the sound quality.


----------



## rikm

...well ok I guess, but how will you be able to flash the firmware if the board is now soldered in place?


----------



## OscarJr

Whitigir said:


> So, I put up my lks004 for sale for a short period @ 1,100 included regular priority shipping in the US.  But I don’t think people appreciate this DAC much.  They probably don’t believe how good the 004 is.
> 
> Anyways, from the modification of my R2R7.  I now have brought it into the LKS-004.  Instead of having the Amanero module easily removable (which is not necessary), having it straight soldered on instead of Brass-Pins = the best conductivity.
> 
> ...



I bought mine for that much last year, so there's bound to be some people in the US interested.  I couldn't have been the only one.  It's just very difficult to convince people to spend that much on just a DAC.   It has to be pretty much someone obsessed with music.  I see you have the silver one.  The one I bought was black.  I wish I could have found a silver one when I was looking.  I'd buy yours if I had any use for it.  I use the LKS004 at home with my 2-way monitor setup, and at work I use a Resonessence Labs Concero HD.


----------



## Whitigir (May 1, 2018)

rikm said:


> ...well ok I guess, but how will you be able to flash the firmware if the board is now soldered in place?



Doesn’t matter if it is soldered on.  There are room to flex, and the mean to remove the board is to short the 2 Pins in order to erase the data for upgrading to the next.

Firmware update guide



OscarJr said:


> I bought mine for that much last year, so there's bound to be some people in the US interested.  I couldn't have been the only one.  It's just very difficult to convince people to spend that much on just a DAC.   It has to be pretty much someone obsessed with music.  I see you have the silver one.  The one I bought was black.  I wish I could have found a silver one when I was looking.  I'd buy yours if I had any use for it.  I use the LKS004 at home with my 2-way monitor setup, and at work I use a Resonessence Labs Concero HD.



Yes, this DAC is excellent for it price


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Doesn’t matter if it is soldered on.  There are room to flex, and the mean to remove the board is to short the 2 Pins in order to erase the data for upgrading to the next.
> 
> Firmware update guide
> 
> ...



what is your reason for the sale please?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> what is your reason for the sale please?


I acquired r2r7, which I put a lot of works into it, and the 004 is laying on the side, but I will just keep it.  The performances surpass the prices on the 004


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I acquired r2r7, which I put a lot of works into it, and the 004 is laying on the side, but I will just keep it.  The performances surpass the prices on the 004



The "Audio-GD - R2R 7 HE" looks to be nearly 3 times the price of the 004 when purchaseed new! There 'should be' some sort of 'improvement' if you splash out (up to) another £2000!!


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> The "Audio-GD - R2R 7 HE" looks to be nearly 3 times the price of the 004 when purchaseed new! There 'should be' some sort of 'improvement' if you splash out (up to) another £2000!!


I don’t buy the HE version, just the regular one, and no....I used lks004 as a point of references to work on the r2r7 and make it sound what it does now.  They are different, and like I said, the upgrades wires to the 004 Amanero into the board also brings improvements.  I just never known that it would, until I worked on r2r7.  Hence I never bothered until now


----------



## ecapsretliab

Ok.  I sold my Hugo 2.  And now I'm looking for a new DAC as I give headphones a miss.
My speaker setup found the Hugo 2 too bright.
The MH-DA004 is on my short list...  But the R2R-7 looks tempting too.  It would come down to which is the more laid back and easy on the ears.
So which has the least bite in the low treble?  That is key for me...   Looking to relax to music... also low-level listening preferred.


----------



## Paul Staples

ecapsretliab said:


> Ok.  I sold my Hugo 2.  And now I'm looking for a new DAC as I give headphones a miss.
> My speaker setup found the Hugo 2 too bright.
> The MH-DA004 is on my short list...  But the R2R-7 looks tempting too.  It would come down to which is the more laid back and easy on the ears.
> So which has the least bite in the low treble?  That is key for me...   Looking to relax to music... also low-level listening preferred.



Can't you simply reduce the treble on your physical pot on your (pre/integrated) amp, or reduce the treble in your EQ or software based sound shaping app.?


----------



## ecapsretliab

Paul Staples said:


> Can't you simply reduce the treble on your physical pot on your (pre/integrated) amp, or reduce the treble in your EQ or software based sound shaping app.?



I'm running headless with minimserver.  I don't have EQ, but you're right... as a last resort I could do that, just hoping I won't need to.
The one thing the Hugo 2 got right was the low treble, I had the Hugo 1 and it was too aggressive around 2khz.  Just hoping I can find the Hugo 2 delicacy but better tone/balance in the right DAC.


----------



## Paul Staples

ecapsretliab said:


> I'm running headless with minimserver.  I don't have EQ, but you're right... as a last resort I could do that, just hoping I won't need to.
> The one thing the Hugo 2 got right was the low treble, I had the Hugo 1 and it was too aggressive around 2khz.  Just hoping I can find the Hugo 2 delicacy but better tone/balance in the right DAC.



Of course people would say that you are suffering from digital harshness and to achieve that mellow treble you should perhaps consider an all analogue setup e.g. vinyl, reel to reel, cassette in order to achieve the ultimate rich, deep, pure warmth and softness that you desire? I have been asked to consider the same thing many times myself, but haven't yet gone down that route!


----------



## ecapsretliab

Paul Staples said:


> Of course people would say that you are suffering from digital harshness and to achieve that mellow treble you should perhaps consider an all analogue setup e.g. vinyl, reel to reel, cassette in order to achieve the ultimate rich, deep, pure warmth and softness that you desire? I have been asked to consider the same thing many times myself, but haven't yet gone down that route!


I'll have to etch my CD's to vinyl.   ...in the mean time, I think I'm going to grab a DA004.   I'm going to drink on it...see how I feel in the morning.


----------



## Tamz

Is using singxer su-1 with the DA004 over kill?
Or just get the upgrading usb option is enough?have anyone compare them yet


----------



## Whitigir

Don’t have Singxer, but if Singxer has converted usb into i2s output and input toward 004, then that is fine.  The 004 Amanero upgraded module still have those brass Pins connections which negatively affect the sound as I recently found out.  Just that it is so good in covering the errors up.

But I always preferred Coax input over usb from before, and now I understand why.


----------



## gruvytune

Tamz said:


> Is using singxer su-1 with the DA004 over kill?
> Or just get the upgrading usb option is enough?have anyone compare them yet



If you talk to Jinbo at LKS he'll tell you not to waste your money.  He said they did extensive testing and listening and that the latest Amanero board via USB direct from the computer equals or exceeds I2S in sound capabilities.  I went ahead and believed him because I was ready to splurge on an I2S conversion box.


----------



## DaaDaa

oh i didnt know that they speak english and you can ask them questions. their ebay postings are dreadful English so i assumed that communication is out of question.


----------



## Whitigir

gruvytune said:


> If you talk to Jinbo at LKS he'll tell you not to waste your money.  He said they did extensive testing and listening and that the latest Amanero board via USB direct from the computer equals or exceeds I2S in sound capabilities.  I went ahead and believed him because I was ready to splurge on an I2S conversion box.



That makes senses, because Singxer is _*usb converter*_.  So it just take UsB from a source, process and convert it.  It is different than Direct and dedicated I2S transport


----------



## Paul Staples

ecapsretliab said:


> I'll have to etch my CD's to vinyl.   ...in the mean time, I think I'm going to grab a DA004.   I'm going to drink on it...see how I feel in the morning.



Yes, have a good think first! Have a cooling off period for a couple of days or so.


----------



## Paul Staples

Tamz said:


> Is using singxer su-1 with the DA004 over kill?
> Or just get the upgrading usb option is enough?have anyone compare them yet



I think it would be 'OTT'


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Don’t have Singxer, but if Singxer has converted usb into i2s output and input toward 004, then that is fine.  The 004 Amanero upgraded module still have those brass Pins connections which negatively affect the sound as I recently found out.  Just that it is so good in covering the errors up.
> 
> But I always preferred Coax input over usb from before, and now I understand why.


Is there any point in replacing the power supply with something else for the Amanero board?


----------



## Paul Staples (May 4, 2018)

gruvytune said:


> If you talk to Jinbo at LKS he'll tell you not to waste your money.  He said they did extensive testing and listening and that the latest Amanero board via USB direct from the computer equals or exceeds I2S in sound capabilities.  I went ahead and believed him because I was ready to splurge on an I2S conversion box.


crap! I've just splurged on an i2s board; will report back my findings once I get it by paying the massive UK Customs fee! (on top of the cost of the item and international postage)!!


----------



## Paul Staples

Dadbeh said:


> oh i didnt know that they speak english and you can ask them questions. their ebay postings are dreadful English so i assumed that communication is out of question.


no!


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> That makes senses, because Singxer is _*usb converter*_.  So it just take UsB from a source, process and convert it.  It is different than Direct and dedicated I2S transport


I'll see what my i2s is like compared to other methods once I receive it. I am sceptical that USB is 'better'.


----------



## ecapsretliab

Paul Staples said:


> Yes, have a good think first! Have a cooling off period for a couple of days or so.


Too late...  fingers crossed I like this thing


----------



## Paul Staples

ecapsretliab said:


> Too late...  fingers crossed I like this thing


"Touché."


----------



## Lodwales81

Paul Staples said:


> "Touché."


Whar are your initulial impressions with your new unit, are you glad you made the purchase.


----------



## Paul Staples (May 6, 2018)

Lodwales81 said:


> Whar are your initulial impressions with your new unit, are you glad you made the purchase.


Yes I am pleased with the unit and it's characteristics are subtly different to other DACs that cost double what this one cost, I can't say it is 'better', just different! But if you are planning on spending £2000-3000 on a DAC like Wadia or weiss or PSAudio, I would say this is as good for a lot less money! I am finding it difficult to judge this device at the moment because for the past 2 weeks my subwoofer has been slowly dying and now I am only getting a horrible distorted crunching noise! I am told it isn't worth repairing by their authorized dealer whose only interest is in selling me a new one at a ridiculously inflated price! In the end, got a 'B' Grade item off ebay, waiting for delivery after bank holiday (again!).

And, as has already been pointed out, if the LKS was exactly the same physically, but had been built by PS Audio and branded PS Audio ‘to boot’, the LKS would have a $4000-$6000 price tag, make no mistake.

Try it!   …buy it, well ‘worth a punt’ I would say I.M.H.O.

Chinese “no name” goods are very competitively priced in the worldwide market due to lack of history and quality reputation, plus low manufacturing costs & overheads (i.e. cheap workforce, wages etc.). But like with the 1970’s oriental: cars, motorbikes and synthesizers; America will soon stop laughing! E.g. Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, Datsun, Nissan, Roland, Korg, Denon, Akai, Sony, Kenwood, Pioneer, Aiwa, Seiko, Ricoh, to name a few.


----------



## rettib2001

Yesterday I received a Singxer su-1 that had already had the dc mod installed.

The SU-1 is being powered by a ZeroZone r core linear power supply and is connected to the the 004 via a 0.5m Apollo AV hdmi cable.

The sound improvement over the Amanero USB board is noticeable, there's greater low level detail and less congestion during busy passages. Putting aside any xmos vs amanero and USB vs i2s debates I think the vast majority of the improvement comes from the power supply and the 'blacker' background it provides.


----------



## Paul Staples

rettib2001 said:


> Yesterday I received a Singxer su-1 that had already had the dc mod installed.
> 
> The SU-1 is being powered by a ZeroZone r core linear power supply and is connected to the the 004 via a 0.5m Apollo AV hdmi cable.
> 
> The sound improvement over the Amanero USB board is noticeable, there's greater low level detail and less congestion during busy passages. Putting aside any xmos vs amanero and USB vs i2s debates I think the vast majority of the improvement comes from the power supply and the 'blacker' background it provides.



what is the full chain from music source to speaker? (inc. psu's)...


----------



## Whitigir

rettib2001 said:


> Yesterday I received a Singxer su-1 that had already had the dc mod installed.
> 
> The SU-1 is being powered by a ZeroZone r core linear power supply and is connected to the the 004 via a 0.5m Apollo AV hdmi cable.
> 
> The sound improvement over the Amanero USB board is noticeable, there's greater low level detail and less congestion during busy passages. Putting aside any xmos vs amanero and USB vs i2s debates I think the vast majority of the improvement comes from the power supply and the 'blacker' background it provides.



That is exactly what an upgraded linear powered Amanero without Brass Pins sound like


----------



## Paul Staples (May 5, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> That is exactly what an upgraded linear powered Amanero without Brass Pins sound like



"linear powered Amanero"?

what's wrong with this?


----------



## rettib2001

Paul Staples said:


> what is the full chain from music source to speaker? (inc. psu's)...



MacBook pro i7 Roon (upsampled dsd512 and room correction filter applied) mostly tidal hifi material - netgear dsg105 ethernet switch powered by ZeroZone r core linear Psu (with jssg ground shunt, I use it on all dc power supplies) - Allo usbridge also powered by a ZeroZone Psu - singxer su-1 via uptone uspcb - lks da004 via 0.5m Apollo AV hdmi cable.

The 004 is in preamp mode straight into nva mono block amplifier (a80 MK2) via reference fidelity Components neptune interconnects. I'm also using nva speaker cable(ls3) into guru junior speakers.

I've put headphone listening to one side until I find a good headphone amp match for this dac and low impedence headphones.


----------



## rettib2001

Whitigir said:


> That is exactly what an upgraded linear powered Amanero without Brass Pins sound like



Yes, imagine the gains are quite similar.

I got the modded su-1 for £150, which for me was great as it avoids me having to attempt the modifications you mentioned. I'd not have felt confortable to keyring around inside the 004.


----------



## Paul Staples

rettib2001 said:


> MacBook pro i7 Roon (upsampled dsd512 and room correction filter applied) mostly tidal hifi material - netgear dsg105 ethernet switch powered by ZeroZone r core linear Psu (with jssg ground shunt, I use it on all dc power supplies) - Allo usbridge also powered by a ZeroZone Psu - singxer su-1 via uptone uspcb - lks da004 via 0.5m Apollo AV hdmi cable.
> 
> The 004 is in preamp mode straight into nva mono block amplifier (a80 MK2) via reference fidelity Components neptune interconnects. I'm also using nva speaker cable(ls3) into guru junior speakers.
> 
> I've put headphone listening to one side until I find a good headphone amp match for this dac and low impedence headphones.



Sounds like an impressive line up! Many thanx for the detailed reply!


----------



## Paul Staples

looking for  replies to post 670 - thank you!


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> "linear powered Amanero"?
> 
> what's wrong with this?



That is the linear powersupply daughter board.  Nothing is wrong with it.  What is wrong with it is the Brass Pins from the Amanero underneath toward the main board on the bottom


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> looking for  replies to post 670 - thank you!


Nothing really wrong. If you look at the audio-gd website http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2R7/R2R7EN.htm, you can see it can be "improved" on as they did on the R2R7. I just took the easy route and use the Singxer SU-1. I had the upgraded Amanero board as well, but decided to keep the SU-1. I feel it has more subtle details and less digital harshness.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> That is the linear powersupply daughter board.  Nothing is wrong with it.  What is wrong with it is the Brass Pins from the Amanero underneath toward the main board on the bottom


thank you.


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> Nothing really wrong. If you look at the audio-gd website http://www.audio-gd.com/R2R/R2R7/R2R7EN.htm, you can see it can be "improved" on as they did on the R2R7. I just took the easy route and use the Singxer SU-1. I had the upgraded Amanero board as well, but decided to keep the SU-1. I feel it has more subtle details and less digital harshness.


thank you


----------



## Paul Staples (May 10, 2018)

it is possible to have 2 sources feeding off the line level outputs (L/R) without causing any sound degradation? i.e. an amp and an active subwoofer.


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> it is possible to have 2 sources feeding off the line level outputs (L/R) without causing any sound degradation? i.e. an amp and an active subwoofer.



Have not tried yet, and not sure if they can be simultaneous , but even if they can, then Ohms law says that the amperage will be cut in 1/2.... ...


----------



## Paul Staples (May 10, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Have not tried yet, and not sure if they can be simultaneous , but even if they can, then Ohms law says that the amperage will be cut in 1/2.... ...


 ..."Oh!" Perhaps an RCA distribution amp would fix it?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> ..."Oh!" Perhaps an RCA distribution amp would fix it?



I can’t tell as I never tried and have no needs to do so.  You may try it and tell us all about how it goes.


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> thank you


I should clarify my comments on SU-1. I don't have the Kitsune Tuned Editions. It's more than double the price I pay for my SU-1 (around $300, found a good deal on it). What I did do is bought a kit for around $30 which allows me to use a 5v external linear PSU (I use the HD-Plex one). That simple mod (takes about 10 minutes) makes quite a substantial improvement. Without it, may be there isn't much difference between the external DDC and the internal Amanero. I also disconnect the power supply leads to the Amanero since I am not using it to avoid any power interference (may be I should remove the whole thing but I couldn't be bother). I also think if you are using i2S, the HDMI cable (unfortunately another add-on expense) makes a difference. I tried an Audioquest, generic hdmi 2.0 and a QED one. The Audioquest one is the most expensive but I prefer the QED one which sounds the best to me (supposedly has jitter reduction capability). All these cables are 1m long, bought some time ago not for this purpose. Thinking about getting a Wireworld Starlight, shorter one may be 0.5m. May be later. Right now, I am just sitting back and enjoy the music.


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> I should clarify my comments on SU-1. I don't have the Kitsune Tuned Editions. It's more than double the price I pay for my SU-1 (around $300, found a good deal on it). What I did do is bought a kit for around $30 which allows me to use a 5v external linear PSU (I use the HD-Plex one). That simple mod (takes about 10 minutes) makes quite a substantial improvement. Without it, may be there isn't much difference between the external DDC and the internal Amanero. I also disconnect the power supply leads to the Amanero since I am not using it to avoid any power interference (may be I should remove the whole thing but I couldn't be bother). I also think if you are using i2S, the HDMI cable (unfortunately another add-on expense) makes a difference. I tried an Audioquest, generic hdmi 2.0 and a QED one. The Audioquest one is the most expensive but I prefer the QED one which sounds the best to me (supposedly has jitter reduction capability). All these cables are 1m long, bought some time ago not for this purpose. Thinking about getting a Wireworld Starlight, shorter one may be 0.5m. May be later. Right now, I am just sitting back and enjoy the music.


thanks!


----------



## Whitigir (May 11, 2018)

In my opinion, all DDC will be the same, and even if the converting circuitry is very beefy, the improvements shall be subtle at best, and still would remains with all issues that USB typically has.  The errors bits that are carried and would then be filtered or DSP away (which results in losses of details).  It explains why a properly done DDC such as Amanero+Linear regulated power supply can be just almost as good as a bigger DDC build in your above experiences.

The problems has lead me to read into further section of digital music and it appears that straight out directly processed Coax/I2S/SPDIF/AES are all superior transport to USB and DDC interfaces.  There are so far, no devices for modern digital transport that does this short of thing : an OS that is open and friendly such as Windows and not androids, Linux is even better, a CPU, a dedicated Clocking systems for audio processing, and FPGA to process toward Coax/SPDIF, I2S, AES output.  Then I come accross these 2 devices

Cayin IDAP-6
Aune-S5

The Aune-S5 is very beefy and awesome, but still original firmware for Chinese language and so on

The Cayin IDAP-6 is also good, but doesn’t have FPGA


----------



## Monsterzero

Ive been in the market for a new DAC for awhile now. I spent a couple hours reading this thread last night and besides from a couple impressions early on most of the posts here are mainly about problems with this DAC.
My question is; Are the issues a thing of the past,or is this DAC more hassles than its worth.

Thanks


----------



## Whitigir

Monsterzero said:


> Ive been in the market for a new DAC for awhile now. I spent a couple hours reading this thread last night and besides from a couple impressions early on most of the posts here are mainly about problems with this DAC.
> My question is; Are the issues a thing of the past,or is this DAC more hassles than its worth.
> 
> Thanks



The DAC has no hassles.  Not at all, seriously.  What hassles did you read and is curious about ? It is plug and play on so many many things


----------



## Monsterzero

Issues with locking/unlocking,overheating,USB upgrades/not working correctly....etc.
I looked on eBay from a link provided earlier in the thread and there seems to be several versions of this DAC at different price points. I'd be using it(or any DAC) thru a Schiit Eitr,so not sure which version to focus on.
I currently have a AGD R2R-11,which I like quite a bit for its warm analog-ish sound,and absolutely hate bright glaring,digital sounding DACs.
Insight appreciated.


----------



## Whitigir

Monsterzero said:


> Issues with locking/unlocking,overheating,USB upgrades/not working correctly....etc.
> I looked on eBay from a link provided earlier in the thread and there seems to be several versions of this DAC at different price points. I'd be using it(or any DAC) thru a Schiit Eitr,so not sure which version to focus on.
> I currently have a AGD R2R-11,which I like quite a bit for its warm analog-ish sound,and absolutely hate bright glaring,digital sounding DACs.
> Insight appreciated.



1/ Locking and unlocking is because LKS allows adjusting DPLL phase lock clocking, and they mistakenly wording the bandwidth “lower, better quality”.  It is not so simple, and so when you opted for the lowest bandwidth, your digital source just can’t output enough frequency and sampling rate, it would lose lock automatically to readjust.  It is recommended to be using Bandwidth 10-12 out of 16 selections.  Especially DSD.

2/ over heating is a blown out of proportion problem.  I have it on 24/7 and has 0 impacts on anything that I could observe.  I could hear tubes warm-up differences, cables differences, but saying lks004 being overheated and lower the performances is a fault.  It is not such an issues 

3/ USB upgraded Amanero works just fine.  It is just me and my recent discovery about that upgrading the internal Pins connections would bring improvements.  I left it there for 12+ months and had 0 issues, until I discovered it


----------



## ecapsretliab

My DA004 arrived today.  I didn't expect it to arrive so quick... build looks impressive, solid.  Smells like fresh paint for some reason, might just open a window.     

Now just need to plug it in... wish me luck.


----------



## Whitigir

ecapsretliab said:


> My DA004 arrived today.  I didn't expect it to arrive so quick... build looks impressive, solid.  Smells like fresh paint for some reason, might just open a window.
> 
> Now just need to plug it in... wish me luck.


How is your luck so far ?


----------



## ecapsretliab

Whitigir said:


> How is your luck so far ?


It's alive!   Currently only running optical, I'm waiting on an HDMI and a coaxial cable so I can experiment with my modded SU-1.  In the meantime I'll let it settle in.

My previous DAC's were a Calyx 24/192 (loved it), NAD M51 (no thanks), Hugo (nope), Hugo2 (amazing but bright) and an R2R-11 (promising, but no Hugo2 that's for sure)... so looking forward to seeing how I like this.


----------



## rettib2001

I've just bought a new headphone amp that works best with balanced xlr but I still want to use the LKS (directly, so no preamp) with my speaker amp which uses rca.

I recall somebody asking the question recently but I don't think there was a conclusive answer. 

Can cables be plugged into both the xlr and rca output at the same time? 

When using the xlr headphone amp I'll turn off my other amp, would that avoid any issues? 

Shame there isn't an output select option/button.


----------



## b0bb

rettib2001 said:


> Can cables be plugged into both the xlr and rca output at the same time?



Yes, I have both outputs connected to different devices.
Both outputs o the LKS004 are active at the same time


----------



## Paul Staples

rettib2001 said:


> Can cables be plugged into both the xlr and rca output at the same time?



yes!


----------



## littlexx26

b0bb said:


> Yes, I have both outputs connected to different devices.
> Both outputs o the LKS004 are active at the same time


will this degrade the sound quality?


----------



## Paul Staples

littlexx26 said:


> will this degrade the sound quality?


I think the main issue you will run into here is ohms. Your amp will only be able to handle a certain set up. Usually the lower limit is 2 ohms pr channel. Your output from your amp (watts/channel) will change with the ohms (#of speakers on the same channel) For example:
You have a 8ohm speaker on a channel.You add another 8 ohm speaker to the same channel. That makes the load 4 ohms. It splits the wattage between the two, so you may be under driving the speakers individually, and you work the amp harder. If you had more than that it can actually clip the amp and ruin both it and the speakers. Just make sure you match ohms and watts per channel with your amp to avoid damage. Do the maths, it's out there, just google it for the formulae!


----------



## Paul Staples

Hi，
You can use rca and xlr output together.
For example, rca output to amp, and xlr to subwoofer.
BR
Jinbo (bleerock@126.com) shenzhenaudio


----------



## Lennym

Paul Staples said:


> I think the main issue you will run into here is ohms. Your amp will only be able to handle a certain set up. Usually the lower limit is 2 ohms pr channel. Your output from your amp (watts/channel) will change with the ohms (#of speakers on the same channel) For example:
> You have a 8ohm speaker on a channel.You add another 8 ohm speaker to the same channel. That makes the load 4 ohms. It splits the wattage between the two, so you may be under driving the speakers individually, and you work the amp harder. If you had more than that it can actually clip the amp and ruin both it and the speakers. Just make sure you match ohms and watts per channel with your amp to avoid damage. Do the maths, it's out there, just google it for the formulae!



You seem to have a lot of opinions.

Amplifiers, which essentially put out current, cannot be compared to sources and preamps, which essentially put out voltage.

Of course Jinbo is correct, as he usually is.


----------



## Paul Staples

Lennym said:


> You seem to have a lot of opinions.
> 
> Amplifiers, which essentially put out current, cannot be compared to sources and preamps, which essentially put out voltage.
> 
> Of course Jinbo is correct, as he usually is.



see: https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/do-rca-splitters-reduce-signal-quality.148503/   ...(post 17)


----------



## Whitigir

Well, when there is voltage, then there is resistance and current.  They are parts of the same ohm laws.  Ofcourse, it would be affected.  There is no way that it wouldn’t.  Everything has consequences.  It is a different matter of “will it work or not ?”

Yes, it will work

Yes, sound will be degraded

What can you accept ? That is the real question.  Can you tell the differences ?


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Well, when there is voltage, then there is resistance and current.  They are parts of the same ohm laws.  Ofcourse, it would be affected.  There is no way that it wouldn’t.  Everything has consequences.  It is a different matter of “will it work or not ?”
> 
> Yes, it will work
> 
> ...


well said Sir. That is what I wanted to say but couldn't get it out somehow.


----------



## rettib2001

Thanks for the answers you've all provided throughout the day. 

I'll have to see if the degradation in sound quality can be perceived. 

Would I be right in thinking that when both balanced and unbalanced outputs are used the balanced xlr output becomes unbalanced?


----------



## Lennym (May 15, 2018)

So many amateur engineers.  LKS does not publish its output impedance, but Jinbo knows what it is.  If Jinbo says using both the SE and the balanced connector (or a y-connector for that matter) is OK that must mean that the output impedance of the LKS is sufficiently low, probably around 50 ohms or so for the balanced; a bit higher for the SE.  The typical amplifier input impedance is measured in tens of thousands of ohms; that's why Jinbo can feel confident in his advice, and so can we.  So too for the same advice from b0bb, also an astute listener and electronics expert, at least IMHO.

Based upon data almost precisely like that I run an amplifier and sub-woofer amp using the balanced and SE of my preamp and it sounds great.  So do multiple thousands of others.

As for littlexx26 and rettib2001, just do it.  You'll be fine.


----------



## ecapsretliab (May 16, 2018)

I've finally hooked up the DA004 to my music server.   This thing has huge potential, if I could just tweak one thing...

There is a little more sibilance than I'm used to, cymbals are just a bit too over emphasized.  Other than this, it is damn good.

Perhaps it needs more "burn in"?  It's only had a few hours.  Also I'm using a crappy generic 1m HDMI cable, perhaps I should give Is12 a miss?

Any thoughts?

--edit--  perhaps it's just my ears getting used to the sabre sound...  more air than I'm used to.  
Coming from the Hugo 2, the DA004 definitely doesn't disappoint.  It's taking me a while to digest... I shall go on listening...


----------



## xiamen

It should improve after more burn in time. I say give it at least a week before deciding.


----------



## Lodwales81

What are peoples though on the new audio gd dual sabre dac, a big difference in price compared to the Lks

http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/D_77/D_77EN.htm


----------



## Paul Staples (May 18, 2018)

Lodwales81 said:


> What are peoples though on the new audio gd dual sabre dac, a big difference in price compared to the Lks
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/D_77/D_77EN.htm



Personally if that is a lot more money, I can't see that it would be worth the swap, honestly. I mean the 004 gives such a lot of performance for the buck that any more would be negligible. A case of diminishing returns I think e.g. £3000 against £1000; AND - FOR WHAT? The 004 is supposedly already superior to Chord Dave, certain weiss, PS Audio, & Wadia DAC's, what more can be gained, would you be happy spending another £2000 for very minor gains indeed?


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> Let me know how you get on, and your impressions mate


You 'pulled the trigger' yet??? (bought it?)


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> That is the linear powersupply daughter board.  Nothing is wrong with it.  What is wrong with it is the Brass Pins from the Amanero underneath toward the main board on the bottom


Instead of silver cable, can't the brass pins be replaced with silver pins? Are they available in silver?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> Instead of silver cable, can't the brass pins be replaced with silver pins? Are they available in silver?


No idea, I guess not


----------



## Lodwales81

Paul Staples said:


> Personally if that is a lot more money, I can't see that it would be worth the swap, honestly. I mean the 004 gives such a lot of performance for the buck that any more would be negligible. A case of diminishing returns I think e.g. £3000 against £1000; AND - FOR WHAT? The 004 is supposedly already superior to Chord Dave, certain weiss, PS Audio, & Wadia DAC's, what more can be gained, would you be happy spending another £2000 for very minor gains indeed?


I have yet to purchase a dac and audio gd is only £750 where lks is £1200, very tempted


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> No idea, I guess not



are you sure those original pins are brass?  ...not say copper or gold? Seems odd when most of the rest of it, is loaded with quality components!


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> I have yet to purchase a dac and audio gd is only £750 where lks is £1200, very tempted


well, that puts a different light on it then! I thought it was dearer!!


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> are you sure those original pins are brass?  ...not say copper or gold? Seems odd when most of the rest of it, is loaded with quality components!



As far as I know, these are all Brass.  These were all produced for IC purposes such as computer....etc....never music 
https://www.alliedelec.com/te-conne...Av_Sm95723He7zYjfyXpybl9XlzHiv6BoCZEwQAvD_BwE


----------



## Whitigir (May 18, 2018)

Lodwales81 said:


> I have yet to purchase a dac and audio gd is only £750 where lks is £1200, very tempted



The one you linked from AudioGD is single chip 1x ESS9038Pro, and not Dual like LKS-004.

AudioGD do have the 2X chip but it will be more expensive than 004 by a few hundreds.

LKS and AudioGD are built under different designs, but both are with discrete and fully balanced.

LKS are built more compact with SMD and AudioGD are built with through holes

I have AudioGD r2r7, and I can tell you that the house sound of LKS-004 is similar to ATH (headphones).  AudioGD house sound is very BurrBrown like.  That is best to describe it.  But I could be wrong, because what I have here, R2R7 is Ladder, where as LKS is dual sigma-delta

This is AudioGD dual chip


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> As far as I know, these are all Brass.  These were all produced for IC purposes such as computer....etc....never music
> https://www.alliedelec.com/te-conne...Av_Sm95723He7zYjfyXpybl9XlzHiv6BoCZEwQAvD_BwE


thanks for the link! In the link it says these pins are gold plated which is the 3rd. best conductor after silver and copper. As we know current flows around the outside of the cable, pin etc. (& not through the centre!). The surface/contact area is were it matters, that's were the information flows through/across. So, it would be irrelevant that that the pin it self is made of bronze.


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> thanks for the link! In the link it says these pins are gold plated which is the 3rd. best conductor after silver and copper. As we know current flows around the outside of the cable, pin etc. (& not through the centre!). The surface/contact area is were it matters, that's were the information flows through/across. So, it would be irrelevant that that the pin it self is made of bronze.



That is wrong to say electricity only conduct and flow on the surface, but whatever float your boat .  Ofcourse these were made for Interconnect purposes, but never Sound quality.  There are differences


----------



## Lodwales81

Whitigir said:


> The one you linked from AudioGD is single chip 1x ESS9038Pro, and not Dual like LKS-004.
> 
> AudioGD do have the 2X chip but it will be more expensive than 004 by a few hundreds.
> 
> ...


http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/D_77/D_77EN.htm
-77 : USD968 (Dual ES9038 Pro & TCXO*3 built in, don't need upgrade)


----------



## Whitigir

Lodwales81 said:


> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/D_77/D_77EN.htm
> -77 : USD968 (Dual ES9038 Pro & TCXO*3 built in, don't need upgrade)


Damn! That is cheap


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Damn! That is cheap


"Cut down" version of NFB 7.77 which is more than double the price. I notice only plays up to DSD256, no usb isolator. You have to assume it uses cheaper components. To compare with 004, someone have to buy it and listen.


----------



## ecapsretliab

4 days burn in.

So...  the Hugo 2 had a little more color and PRaT.  Perhaps livelier is the word?  But had a smaller, leaner and more digital sound.

Coming from the Hugo 2, the DA004 pulls ahead in other departments.  Scale, sound-stage, analogue-ness (new word), musicality.

Though... the DA004 has more 'brilliance' than I'm used to...  It reminds me a little of the HE-6 headphones I once owned.

I have re-positioned my speakers and added some speaker fabric over the tweeters... this subtle mod helps.  At least in my setup anyway.

Even so, it is the least digital, and most satisfying DAC I have heard to date.  Close to my idea of perfection, definitely a new benchmark for me.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Damn! That is cheap


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> "Cut down" version of NFB 7.77 which is more than double the price. I notice only plays up to DSD256, no usb isolator. You have to assume it uses cheaper components. To compare with 004, someone have to buy it and listen.


----------



## Paul Staples

ecapsretliab said:


> 4 days burn in.
> 
> So...  the Hugo 2 had a little more color and PRaT.  Perhaps livelier is the word?  But had a smaller, leaner and more digital sound.
> 
> ...


----------



## rikm

ecapsretliab said:


> 4 days burn in.
> 
> So...  the Hugo 2 had a little more color and PRaT.  Perhaps livelier is the word?  But had a smaller, leaner and more digital sound.
> 
> ...




...this is very like my experience, lots of clarity and detail and a lot more depth than any of the other [admittedly limited] DACs I have had...

it all sounds all good, but sometimes there was a little too much high frequency--violins at times for instance--that was resolved by switching my tube rig to triode...the sibilant effects went away and the overall sound improved some more...am thinking the extra analogue component in the chain is a good thing


----------



## Whitigir

rikm said:


> ...this is very like my experience, lots of clarity and detail and a lot more depth than any of the other [admittedly limited] DACs I have had...
> 
> it all sounds all good, but sometimes there was a little too much high frequency--violins at times for instance--that was resolved by switching my tube rig to triode...the sibilant effects went away and the overall sound improved some more...am thinking the extra analogue component in the chain is a good thing



Are you using USB input ?


----------



## rikm

Whitigir said:


> Are you using USB input ?




Not at the moment, was having phase lock issues that I think have to do with a faulty Amanero module and have ordered an eBay replacement

...now using a DDC to the I2S socket--it has resolved all the DPLL confusion that had the DAC losing lock even with BW15, and am hoping the new module will work properly


----------



## Whitigir (May 19, 2018)

rikm said:


> Not at the moment, was having phase lock issues that I think have to do with a faulty Amanero module and have ordered an eBay replacement
> 
> ...now using a DDC to the I2S socket--it has resolved all the DPLL confusion that had the DAC losing lock even with BW15, and am hoping the new module will work properly



Wow...I don’t lose lock at bandwidth 6.  Sometimes it could be your usb sources like computer or whatever you are using to feed LKS004.  Then the cables
I2S is interesting, what cables are you using, and what bandwidth are you in stable at

I am now using Coax out from my Dx200 into LKS004 with my professionally made Coax Cables.  Guess what ? It locks fine at Bandwidth-01.  It does lose locks if I cross the coax cables on top of my Power cables, both of them are shielded though, I guess current running from main power cut into it somehow.


----------



## Paul Staples (May 19, 2018)

just started using pink faun i2s.

Well it is amazing, adds another subtle dimensions to the width, space & clarity. Bass tightens up too, nice and solid with less flab!

Anybody know what the black socket is for?


----------



## Whitigir (May 19, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> just started using pink faun i2s.
> 
> Well it is amazing adds another subtle dimensions to the width, space & clarity. Bass tightens up too, nice and solid with less flab!
> 
> Anybody know what the black socket is for?



Awesome! I can’t wait to use mine ! What is your build ? I guess the Black socket is for Modules such as OCXC upgrades

I2S is superior to USB and even Coax.  But Coax is good, and is more affordable! Can’t wait for my Direct I2S without DDC!


----------



## Whitigir

So, I had been burning in and learning and working around and reviewing the AudioGD R2R7.  I almost wanted to sell my LKS-004, and I actually have it listed up for sale for a couple days.  No bites, and I retracted it.  Guess what ? I am listening to it today and I have to say...,for heaven sake, it sounds so freaking good.  Yet, different than R2R7 as they are different technology.  But once again, it confirms how friendly the LKS-004 is.  The story goes 

*Bandwidth:* _there is a line called DPLL BW01 and there are 16 of them. Lks004 says that the higher the bandwidth (the lower the BW-X number), the higher the performances, but it depends on the sources ! They literally meant it! ! !
_
The majority of DAC on the market has DPLL automatic! Do not allow manual adjustments! *Lks-004 allows manual adjustment and also automatically adjust to the next bandwidth 
*
So my experiences with it was nothing of short but an enlightening and awakening to Digital music and audio-performances

_*1st: USB*_.  I have been using WM1Z and Cradle docking system to play USB out, and I always take this device to be a good usb quality output.  It is true though, I could lock it into BW06 and enjoying music, where as LKS recommended that BW-10 is standardand start from there.  I contacted LKS (Jinbo) before I know what the heck DPLL was ....and I was told that my Source was not good enough.  For a moment, I was disappointed and frustrated.  But reality is reality, the machine does what it do best. _I enjoyed music this way for 12+ months without knowing it_.  Every time I try to go lower, the 004 stalls and reflect itself to lower DPLL to compensate for the (poor quality)

_*2nd: Coax*_.  First off, I do not want to use Coax, because the cables look bulky like a snake, and cost money to make....anyways, I bought DX200 and I was able to use the stock Coax Cables to try out Coax mode to see if I like it ! Magically, I could lock into BW-03, which is much higher than my USB.  To my surprises, _it also sounded blacker background and more details_.  So, I went ahead and made a Silver Cables for it to try out, and I still could only lock at BW-03...or stabilized at 05...again, what the hell ? I thought it is just that 004 is unable to get higher ? In the conclusion though, I liked Coax more than my expensive WM1Z USB

**Jinbo was so full of supports and even traded my Amanero for a newer one to see if it helped...it didn’t** damn it!

So, I guess it is time to spend more money *nothing quality comes cheap right ?* So I decided to go ahead and make purchases of AudioGD R2R-7.  I absolutely adore the Powersupply and the design layouts from the paper specifications !

*R2R 7:
*
So, onto R2R 7, what do I get ? 

_*USB again*_: if I don’t use the DAC DSP, I hear hissing that scales up with frequency such as Violins , or cymbal splashes....etc...then using all Jumpers (DSP) helped greatly.  I do enjoy it though, but then the problems persisted, only less pronounces, so I went ahead and do this, and do that to fix the Amanero modules, Brass-Pins....etc...etc...it helped, and I thought I could just do pure music again without DSP.  Guess what ? Glares, this glare is different than hissing.  I finally gave up on USB here and went with my LKS004 USB.  Then what I noticed was that when I adjusted to higher DPLL, the lks004 will automatically stall and jump down BW.  Before it does so, I did hear the hissing, but until it dropped down, no more hissing !! This explains why I could never *realizes the hissing from usb 
*
_*Coax again*_: so, back to Coax, DX200 and Coax out into my R2r7 and Voilaa, Music, pure music without DSP, no glares, no hissing ?_? What in the ? Ok, this means Coax is better than USB, and until this points I really concluded that USB is trash !

Ok, I gave up on USB, and have made myself a very nice Coax Cables ! And I had been enjoying this Cables on R2R7 for a week now.  Today *lks004 is singing at BW-01 .......WwwwwuuuuuuuuuuTTTTT ????
*
Yes, LKS-004-Bw-01 is something to behold! The performances really pull far into the ..... I don’t even know, I just know that it sounds really good.  In a senses, I can now see it is even better than R2R7...LOL!  Sound signature differences is fine but detail retrieval’s and trebles extensions, it is slightly ahead.  It doesn’t have the depth of soundstage as the R2R7, it is a bit more upfront and intimidating, but it has that details retrieval’s, trebles extensions, and transparency.  For LKS-004 to be this easy to use, and of this caliber quality and compete to the R2R7 which is much more beefy in build and 1.7x the price ? That is crazy! 

What can your I2S do in comparison to R2R7 ? I am so eager to find out


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> So, I had been burning in and learning and working around and reviewing the AudioGD R2R7.  I almost wanted to sell my LKS-004, and I actually have it listed up for sale for a couple days.  No bites, and I retracted it.  Guess what ? I am listening to it today and I have to say...,for heaven sake, it sounds so freaking good.  Yet, different than R2R7 as they are different technology.  But once again, it confirms how friendly the LKS-004 is.  The story goes
> 
> *Bandwidth:* _there is a line called DPLL BW01 and there are 16 of them. Lks004 says that the higher the bandwidth (the lower the BW-X number), the higher the performances, but it depends on the sources ! They literally meant it! ! !
> _
> ...



Certainly very interesting to hear your story. Surprised to hear that Jinbo says your WM1Z is not a good enough source !! I am sort of using I2S but via Singxer SU-1 as a USB/I2S bridge, so really more USB than I2S. My story is totally different, based on a few principles of mine. Could be wrong but I do have an electrical engineering degree so not totally ignorant of what I am doing. Firstly, I don't mind spending but I like to spend wisely rather than money is no object. Secondly, convenience is a factor for me. For years I had battled with my vinyl rig but finally gave up a couple of years ago. Just too much TLC. I still own an old Oppo 95se but even searching through piles of CD to find what you want to listen to is too much work. So a music server is what I work on now. I choose Windows as I know it well, and I don't fancy learning a whole new environment whether that be MacOS or linux. I go down the USB path and in the last 12 months go hybrid usb/i2s. In general, I believe if your audio is lossless, it is bit perfect whatever interface you take. It's just that usb are more prone to noise or jitter. Rather than suppressing or filtering the noise, I set on building a head unit as free of noise as possible. Potentially may be I should go down the Roon path with a server and an end point but I am perusing down the jriver setup. I feel that jriver has a high learning curve but once you work it out, it's actually pretty good. For my PC server, I use the HD-Plex  H5 fanless case to eliminate noise from CPU and motherboard fans. I use the HD-Plex linear PSU to output a 400W HiFi DC-ATX for motherboard to eliminate PSU fan and keep motherboard power clean. I opt for the lastest i7 8700 cpu but the non-k version to keep wattage to a low 65w. I use G. Skill 3600 DDR4 2x8 RAM and the Asrock Z370 Taichi. As the non-k 8700 is not meant to run memory at over 2666, I lightly overclock it using XMP to run memory at 3066. I do that because I play audio from memory, and I feel faster memory speed helps (some would say that's rubbish). The main reason I choose USB because it's the interface that allows DSD playback. None of the others even Pink Faun I2S will let me do that. I emailed Pink Faun and they suggest I convert all SACD and DSF to PCM, something I am reluctant to do. Why DSD, probably more a personal taste choice. I do have a fair amount of DSD materials and I don't want to give them up. Also, if you look at the 004, the Sabre chip uses the delta-sigma architecture which means the chip is native DSD. I could be wrong but I think PCM will be converted to DSD anyway before the decoding. As far as I know only ladder dacs work on PCM in native mode. Then there is the PCM vs DSD argument, not going into that here. I believe USB port noise is also relative to the usb port you are using. No doubt on-board usb ports will be noisy. There are some really expensive usb pcie cards like from Sotm or Paul Pang. I choose something more moderate, the  Matrix X-Hi Card Hi-Fi USB 3.0 PCIe Card. It has independent data channel from Texas Instrument and also allows me to use an external linear 5v psu. So I figure this gives the minimal electrical output interference. For usb cable, I use the iFI Mercury 3.0. This apparently has different channel for data and electrical. I had a pure silver USB cable but this beats it. I can actually hear the difference. The signal then goes into a linear PSU supplied Singxer SU-1 which provides galvanic isolation as well as balance, reclock and regen. Then HDMI to 004's I2S. Just using a QED Hdmi cable at the moment. With this setup, I can play PCM in DPLL 1 no problem. Is that as good as your setup, I have no idea probably not. I do choose to play in up sampled DSD512 at DPLL 9. I figure DPLL are for jitter rejection and hopefully I don't have much jitter in the input anyway. Also, it's hard to get a setup to play DSD512 upsampling properlly and I think I got it !!


----------



## Whitigir (May 20, 2018)

xiamen said:


> Certainly very interesting to hear your story. Surprised to hear that Jinbo says your WM1Z is not a good enough source !! I am sort of using I2S but via Singxer SU-1 as a USB/I2S bridge, so really more USB than I2S. My story is totally different, based on a few principles of mine. Could be wrong but I do have an electrical engineering degree so not totally ignorant of what I am doing. Firstly, I don't mind spending but I like to spend wisely rather than money is no object. Secondly, convenience is a factor for me. For years I had battled with my vinyl rig but finally gave up a couple of years ago. Just too much TLC. I still own an old Oppo 95se but even searching through piles of CD to find what you want to listen to is too much work. So a music server is what I work on now. I choose Windows as I know it well, and I don't fancy learning a whole new environment whether that be MacOS or linux. I go down the USB path and in the last 12 months go hybrid usb/i2s. In general, I believe if your audio is lossless, it is bit perfect whatever interface you take. It's just that usb are more prone to noise or jitter. Rather than suppressing or filtering the noise, I set on building a head unit as free of noise as possible. Potentially may be I should go down the Roon path with a server and an end point but I am perusing down the jriver setup. I feel that jriver has a high learning curve but once you work it out, it's actually pretty good. For my PC server, I use the HD-Plex  H5 fanless case to eliminate noise from CPU and motherboard fans. I use the HD-Plex linear PSU to output a 400W HiFi DC-ATX for motherboard to eliminate PSU fan and keep motherboard power clean. I opt for the lastest i7 8700 cpu but the non-k version to keep wattage to a low 65w. I use G. Skill 3600 DDR4 2x8 RAM and the Asrock Z370 Taichi. As the non-k 8700 is not meant to run memory at over 2666, I lightly overclock it using XMP to run memory at 3066. I do that because I play audio from memory, and I feel faster memory speed helps (some would say that's rubbish). The main reason I choose USB because it's the interface that allows DSD playback. None of the others even Pink Faun I2S will let me do that. I emailed Pink Faun and they suggest I convert all SACD and DSF to PCM, something I am reluctant to do. Why DSD, probably more a personal taste choice. I do have a fair amount of DSD materials and I don't want to give them up. Also, if you look at the 004, the Sabre chip uses the delta-sigma architecture which means the chip is native DSD. I could be wrong but I think PCM will be converted to DSD anyway before the decoding. As far as I know only ladder dacs work on PCM in native mode. Then there is the PCM vs DSD argument, not going into that here. I believe USB port noise is also relative to the usb port you are using. No doubt on-board usb ports will be noisy. There are some really expensive usb pcie cards like from Sotm or Paul Pang. I choose something more moderate, the  Matrix X-Hi Card Hi-Fi USB 3.0 PCIe Card. It has independent data channel from Texas Instrument and also allows me to use an external linear 5v psu. So I figure this gives the minimal electrical output interference. For usb cable, I use the iFI Mercury 3.0. This apparently has different channel for data and electrical. I had a pure silver USB cable but this beats it. I can actually hear the difference. The signal then goes into a linear PSU supplied Singxer SU-1 which provides galvanic isolation as well as balance, reclock and regen. Then HDMI to 004's I2S. Just using a QED Hdmi cable at the moment. With this setup, I can play PCM in DPLL 1 no problem. Is that as good as your setup, I have no idea probably not. I do choose to play in up sampled DSD512 at DPLL 9. I figure DPLL are for jitter rejection and hopefully I don't have much jitter in the input anyway. Also, it's hard to get a setup to play DSD512 upsampling properlly and I think I got it !!



Then your Singxer can lock in Bw-01 over I2S ? Jinbo didn’t directly saying the Wm1Z was not good enough as a source but saying that DPLL standard recommended is Bw10, and if the source is not good enough, it can’t lock at higher bandwidth.  If your Singxer SU1 can lock in at BW-01, that means it is really good at processing and filtering while converting it into I2S.  It also means that I2S is superior to USB, no matter what, and a good DDC can output good I2S.

That is how I take this, and that is why I believe I2S is superior even to Coax, then why don’t I just do Direct I2S ? That is Pinkfaun.  Less Conversions, less losses of music and details, period.


Pinkfaun also have USB modules

Jitters is only one problem with digital music, there are phase noises, errors, and so on.  I had tried several reckons-regen, and I heard losses of details in my music.  It is not only about jitters, but the quality and the details of the music as well.

I took out the Amanero on both the R2R7 and LKS-004 to upgrade the wires inside, and guess what ? It is exactly what these guys says, Amanero converts all incoming formats and signals into I2S (USB to I2S converter) and then connected toward the DAC.  However, my LKS-004 do display DSD playback, and the culprit is the *Atmel/Xmos Display*.  It is the processor and it can display what is being decoded.  Here, simply put, it is showing that _*it is taking in Native DSD and decoding it*_, but what is after this ? *You get it!! I2S*

In short, what _makes me go out and look toward this *Native i2s directly* is because of this!!_.  *After the chain of connections, both LKS-004 and R2R-7 is simply decoding PCM.  Then why throw more in the chains to convert back and forth ?*  Probably to reduce Jitter like you said, but at losses of details and music.  I am not a fan

I am not an expert into DAC and Design of Sigma-Delta.  However, I do read around that Native DSD will be converted to MultiBit majority, people can debate whether Multibit is PCM or DSD, true DSD is 1 bit, period.  You can read this post here.

I do believe that the only DAC that can do *correctly *Native DSD out is (Sony), such as TA-ZH1ES.  They are known for PWM, filtering (S-Master).  No doubt that WM1Z is really doing Native DSD also.


_*I also believe that a lot of marketing Hoaxes are around the markets, and people just buy in as long as there is an explanation regardless of it accuracy*_.  To properly compare Native DSD and PCM, you will need to Compare it on the same platform that do both natively.  _*There is no such thing*_, S-Master HX from Sony can do Native DSD they advertise Direct Digital (_I believe S-Master convert all PCM into DSD before going through low pass filters) _! *Therefore, in this case *S-Master HX shows DSD as being superior to PCM.

_Older generations of S-Master on NW-ZX1 and NW-ZX2, basically these chips were only able to convert PCM into Multibit DSD...which is still PCM under Sony engineering terms, therefore they claimed ZX2 converts all signals into PCM and no Native DSD._

Now, to compare on another Platform of Sigma-Delta...etc....these are Multibit, and so it dormant is PCM.  It is not a surprise that PCM is better than Native DSD.  Pinkfaun has already claimed that between their tests and listening, I2S is superior eventhough it is maxed out 32/198 Where as the USB is* capable of Native DSD, but what is it displaying to you....is not what comes out of it!!
*
There, you have it.  This Debate between _*pcm vs DSD *_ comes down to 1 single *conclusion.  *When _*done right, each of them will show their priority and superiority *_.  Sadly, what else out there can done right on the Native DSD beside Sony ?  I guess, if you are a fan of Native DSD, look no further, wait for *Sony!
*
Me, on another hand, is chasing the quality of sounds, and not Native DSD, because I stick to modern Digital musics such as Modern Pops, and streamings....etc....and the majority of all these so called High-end DAC, in reality is just *PCM Native, the same for modern musics*.  So, when PCM is done right, it will show it superiority.  That is my take, and I am going down this road.  Will keep you all updated soon, if things work out correctly LoL


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Awesome! I can’t wait to use mine ! What is your build ? I guess the Black socket is for Modules such as OCXC upgrades
> 
> I2S is superior to USB and even Coax.  But Coax is good, and is more affordable! Can’t wait for my Direct I2S without DDC!



my build (?) do you mean V1-15/2017?

OCXC? DDC?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> my build (?) do you mean V1-15/2017?
> 
> OCXC? DDC?



No, I meant, what do you build to run your Pinkfaun I2S from ? Your computer configurations !

OCXC ....I meant OCXO  (it is oven controlled clocks).  An upgraded option from Pinkfaun


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> So, I had been burning in and learning and working around and reviewing the AudioGD R2R7.  I almost wanted to sell my LKS-004, and I actually have it listed up for sale for a couple days.  No bites, and I retracted it.  Guess what ? I am listening to it today and I have to say...,for heaven sake, it sounds so freaking good.  Yet, different than R2R7 as they are different technology.  But once again, it confirms how friendly the LKS-004 is.  The story goes
> 
> *Bandwidth:* _there is a line called DPLL BW01 and there are 16 of them. Lks004 says that the higher the bandwidth (the lower the BW-X number), the higher the performances, but it depends on the sources ! They literally meant it! ! !
> _
> ...



Been using BW01 all the time, no problems with coax on an M2Tech Hi-Face2 (an excellent converter I.M.O.). However, I feel the i2s is even 'cleaner'.


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> Been using BW01 all the time, no problems with coax on an M2Tech Hi-Face2 (an excellent converter I.M.O.). However, I feel the i2s is even 'cleaner'.


Yes, Coax has less things in the chain, and less prone to jitters.  Ofcourse jitters is not 1 single problems in digital music, there are more.  The Pinkfaun i2S is superbly designed for this, there is no doubt it is cleaner (or better music)

I am curious about your PC used to run Pinkfaun i2s


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> Certainly very interesting to hear your story. Surprised to hear that Jinbo says your WM1Z is not a good enough source !! I am sort of using I2S but via Singxer SU-1 as a USB/I2S bridge, so really more USB than I2S. My story is totally different, based on a few principles of mine. Could be wrong but I do have an electrical engineering degree so not totally ignorant of what I am doing. Firstly, I don't mind spending but I like to spend wisely rather than money is no object. Secondly, convenience is a factor for me. For years I had battled with my vinyl rig but finally gave up a couple of years ago. Just too much TLC. I still own an old Oppo 95se but even searching through piles of CD to find what you want to listen to is too much work. So a music server is what I work on now. I choose Windows as I know it well, and I don't fancy learning a whole new environment whether that be MacOS or linux. I go down the USB path and in the last 12 months go hybrid usb/i2s. In general, I believe if your audio is lossless, it is bit perfect whatever interface you take. It's just that usb are more prone to noise or jitter. Rather than suppressing or filtering the noise, I set on building a head unit as free of noise as possible. Potentially may be I should go down the Roon path with a server and an end point but I am perusing down the jriver setup. I feel that jriver has a high learning curve but once you work it out, it's actually pretty good. For my PC server, I use the HD-Plex  H5 fanless case to eliminate noise from CPU and motherboard fans. I use the HD-Plex linear PSU to output a 400W HiFi DC-ATX for motherboard to eliminate PSU fan and keep motherboard power clean. I opt for the lastest i7 8700 cpu but the non-k version to keep wattage to a low 65w. I use G. Skill 3600 DDR4 2x8 RAM and the Asrock Z370 Taichi. As the non-k 8700 is not meant to run memory at over 2666, I lightly overclock it using XMP to run memory at 3066. I do that because I play audio from memory, and I feel faster memory speed helps (some would say that's rubbish). The main reason I choose USB because it's the interface that allows DSD playback. None of the others even Pink Faun I2S will let me do that. I emailed Pink Faun and they suggest I convert all SACD and DSF to PCM, something I am reluctant to do. Why DSD, probably more a personal taste choice. I do have a fair amount of DSD materials and I don't want to give them up. Also, if you look at the 004, the Sabre chip uses the delta-sigma architecture which means the chip is native DSD. I could be wrong but I think PCM will be converted to DSD anyway before the decoding. As far as I know only ladder dacs work on PCM in native mode. Then there is the PCM vs DSD argument, not going into that here. I believe USB port noise is also relative to the usb port you are using. No doubt on-board usb ports will be noisy. There are some really expensive usb pcie cards like from Sotm or Paul Pang. I choose something more moderate, the  Matrix X-Hi Card Hi-Fi USB 3.0 PCIe Card. It has independent data channel from Texas Instrument and also allows me to use an external linear 5v psu. So I figure this gives the minimal electrical output interference. For usb cable, I use the iFI Mercury 3.0. This apparently has different channel for data and electrical. I had a pure silver USB cable but this beats it. I can actually hear the difference. The signal then goes into a linear PSU supplied Singxer SU-1 which provides galvanic isolation as well as balance, reclock and regen. Then HDMI to 004's I2S. Just using a QED Hdmi cable at the moment. With this setup, I can play PCM in DPLL 1 no problem. Is that as good as your setup, I have no idea probably not. I do choose to play in up sampled DSD512 at DPLL 9. I figure DPLL are for jitter rejection and hopefully I don't have much jitter in the input anyway. Also, it's hard to get a setup to play DSD512 upsampling properlly and I think I got it !!



WOW! ~ tha's a lot of tinkering matey, thought I was bad, but you take the honours here! Didn't know there are linear power supplies for PC's? Mine is a: Thermaltake 600w Tough Power SFX PSU 80+ GOLD (with fan). CPU also has fan (Silverstone SST-AR06 Argon PWM CPU Cooler 92mm Fan) in Lian Li PC-C50B Black Aluminium Micro ATX Media Centre HTPC Case.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Then your Singxer can lock in Bw-01 over I2S ? Jinbo didn’t directly saying the Wm1Z was not good enough as a source but saying that DPLL standard recommended is Bw10, and if the source is not good enough, it can’t lock at higher bandwidth.  If your Singxer SU1 can lock in at BW-01, that means it is really good at processing and filtering while converting it into I2S.  It also means that I2S is superior to USB, no matter what, and a good DDC can output good I2S.
> 
> That is how I take this, and that is why I believe I2S is superior even to Coax, then why don’t I just do Direct I2S ? That is Pinkfaun.  Less Conversions, less losses of music and details, period.
> 
> ...



Keeping it as simple as possible and as pure as possible has always been my philosophy. Your diagram shows how the i2s concept is beautifully simple compared to the conventional (& traditional) methods of conversion.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Yes, Coax has less things in the chain, and less prone to jitters.  Ofcourse jitters is not 1 single problems in digital music, there are more.  The Pinkfaun i2S is superbly designed for this, there is no doubt it is cleaner (or better music)
> 
> I am curious about your PC used to run Pinkfaun i2s



Asus (based) desktop PC:

Asus ROG strix z270g Intel lga 1151 + Asus ROG Strix GeForce GTX 1050 (2GB) + ASUS x24 DVDCD Re-Writer with M-DISC Support DRW-24D5M + Intel® Core™ i7-6700K 6700K - 4GHz Quad-Core 6th Gen. Socket 1151 Processor + Kingston SSDNow M.2 240gb SATA G2 Drive SM2280S3G2240G Solid State Drive + Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K + Thermaltake 600w Tough Power SFX PSU 80+ GOLD + Lian Li PC-C50B Black Aluminium Micro ATX Media Centre HTPC Case. Silverstone SST-AR06 Argon PWM CPU Cooler 92mm Fan. Nanoxia Deep Silence 120mm PWM Ultra-Quiet PC Fan, 650-1500 RPM (x3).


----------



## Whitigir (May 20, 2018)

Linear power supply ATX for PC here.  It is my plan for a PinkFaun I2S as a source transport soon! Can’t wait to build this !  Going to do similar to what @xiamen did, but I am going with Pinkfaun I2S, maybe possibly USB card later

Check out 400W LPS


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Then your Singxer can lock in Bw-01 over I2S ? Jinbo didn’t directly saying the Wm1Z was not good enough as a source but saying that DPLL standard recommended is Bw10, and if the source is not good enough, it can’t lock at higher bandwidth.  If your Singxer SU1 can lock in at BW-01, that means it is really good at processing and filtering while converting it into I2S.  It also means that I2S is superior to USB, no matter what, and a good DDC can output good I2S.
> 
> That is how I take this, and that is why I believe I2S is superior even to Coax, then why don’t I just do Direct I2S ? That is Pinkfaun.  Less Conversions, less losses of music and details, period.
> 
> ...


so even dCS Vivaldi is no exception?


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> No, I meant, what do you build to run your Pinkfaun I2S from ? Your computer configurations !
> 
> OCXC ....I meant OCXO  (it is oven controlled clocks).  An upgraded option from Pinkfaun


----------



## Whitigir (May 20, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


>






littlexx26 said:


> so even dCS Vivaldi is no exception?



I do not know about this DAC, but I do know that DAC Multibit needs to communicate by I2S, and that is no ways to do Native DSD.  Because Native DSD is what it is, 1 bits and low pass filter

Looking at that DAC, only SPDIF input is a bit Sad.  But believe it or not, a lot of manufacturers are trying to push USB.  It makes more money


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Linear power supply ATX for PC here.  It is my plan for a PinkFaun I2S as a source transport soon! Can’t wait to build this !  Going to do similar to what @xiamen did, but I am going with Pinkfaun I2S, maybe possibly USB card later
> 
> Check out 400W LPS



Oh!! ~ external. Is there anywhere that sells these LPSU? From the picture it looks like it only supports the 24 pins & 8 pins requirements, but there are other cards/devices in a PC that also need power e.g. GRX CARD, i2s, Optical drive, etc!


----------



## Whitigir (May 20, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> Oh!! ~ external. Is there anywhere that sells these LPSU? From the picture it looks like it only supports the 24 pins & 8 pins requirements, but there are other cards/devices in a PC that also need power e.g. GRX CARD, i2s, Optical drive, etc!



Easy, make cables that do XLR into Molex connector with the according polarity.  All of those XLR voltages output in the back are *independent.  *I will be using that 12V to run my Pinkfaun I2S card.  Buy the PSU directly from that website I linked above.  They ship pretty fast in the US, and global shipping is possible

There are also 4 Pins for SSD in the back


----------



## Paul Staples (May 20, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Easy, make cables that do XLR into Molex connector with the according polarity.  All of those XLR voltages output in the back are *independent.  *I will be using that 12V to run my Pinkfaun I2S card.  Buy the PSU directly from that website I linked above.  They ship pretty fast in the US, and global shipping is possible
> 
> There are also 4 Pins for SSD in the back


OK thanks, I'll think about it. The 12v XLR would cover the i2s, and the PCI-e out would cover the Grx card. However the optical drive has a SATA power plug! (not 4 pin molex).

Have you seen these: http://www.teradak.com/products/?id=25


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> OK thanks, I'll think about it. The 12v XLR would cover the i2s, and the PCI-e out would cover the Grx card. However the optical drive has a SATA power plug! (not 4 pin molex).
> 
> Have you seen these: http://www.teradak.com/products/?id=25



Yes, I have seen those, and I found out that it has much more noises than HDPlex.  The HDPlex is 2-3mV of noises, and those Teradak is 150mV or so.  I do not use Optical drive, the only time I use it would be to Rip My collections into Flacs and save it.  If you use it, just terminate those XLR cables into the according polarity to run with your Drives, easy job.


----------



## Paul Staples (May 20, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Yes, I have seen those, and I found out that it has much more noises than HDPlex.  The HDPlex is 2-3mV of noises, and those Teradak is 150mV or so.  I do not use Optical drive, the only time I use it would be to Rip My collections into Flacs and save it.  If you use it, just terminate those XLR cables into the according polarity to run with your Drives, easy job.


SATA plugs:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SATA-5P-...hash=item2848fe77c4:m:m7aspp4Q1U0OaqIoYvKsF1w


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Linear power supply ATX for PC here.  It is my plan for a PinkFaun I2S as a source transport soon! Can’t wait to build this !  Going to do similar to what @xiamen did, but I am going with Pinkfaun I2S, maybe possibly USB card later
> 
> Check out 400W LPS



This is £590 + shipping + customs charges. I think this is just too much to spend in my case. To me that's a lot of dosh £xxx, I'm guessing that the diminishing returns wouldn't be all that great comparing it to my Thermaltake 600w Tough Power SFX PSU 80+ GOLD? When you get yours can you do a graph illustrating the gain of the LPSU compared to traditional SFX? (to see how much of an improvement you have actually made).


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> This is £590 + shipping + customs charges. I think this is just too much to spend in my case. To me that's a lot of dosh £xxx, I'm guessing that the diminishing returns wouldn't be all that great comparing it to my Thermaltake 600w Tough Power SFX PSU 80+ GOLD? When you get yours can you do a graph illustrating the gain of the LPSU compared to traditional SFX? (to see how much of an improvement you have actually made).



I don’t have any means to be able to do what you just asked LOL!  All I can say is that I know from personal experiences, and from majority of hardcore Audiophiles about LPSU vs Switching.

Simply put, LPSU is the best, because if it is not, then your computer and Motherboard will not have any regulators designed into it to help the desktop running smoothly either.

Switching is meant to be efficient.  In the world of electricity, you have power *or *efficient.  You can not have both! lol.  So, it doesn’t matter what snake oils people is trying to shove down to my throat, it won’t move me.  I need power, I go for LPS.  If I need efficient, I go for Switching.  When we talk about Audio performances, the more, the better.  So LPS


----------



## Paul Staples (May 20, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> I don’t have any means to be able to do what you just asked LOL!  All I can say is that I know from personal experiences, and from majority of hardcore Audiophiles about LPSU vs Switching.
> 
> Simply put, LPSU is the best, because if it is not, then your computer and Motherboard will not have any regulators designed into it to help the desktop running smoothly either.
> 
> Switching is meant to be efficient.  In the world of electricity, you have power *or *efficient.  You can not have both! lol.  So, it doesn’t matter what snake oils people is trying to shove down to my throat, it won’t move me.  I need power, I go for LPS.  If I need efficient, I go for Switching.  When we talk about Audio performances, the more, the better.  So LPS



I (we on here) will look forward to hearing of your experiences with the LPSU, I hope it is amazing and mind blowing!

PS: Do you think my PC is being 'let down' by the standard SFX PSU?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> I (we on here) will look forward to hearing of your experiences with the LPSU, I hope it is amazing and mind blowing!
> 
> PS: Do you think my PC is being 'let down' by the standard SFX PSU?



Well, just as long as you don’t have any complaints about it.  Then don’t worry, the more you seek out, the more money you will end up spending


----------



## OscarJr

newbie question here.

I'm currently using mine with my laptop and feeding it through USB.  If I2S is superior to USB and coax, how does one even go about "getting" an I2S signal from a laptop computer?  I don't want an electrical circuit "project" to work on, I'd rather buy whatever equipment I need, if that is possible.  Help a newb out.


----------



## xiamen

If you want direct i2s like the Pink Faun card, you need a PCIE slot. There may be ways but I don't think you should bother. The other option is a USB/i2S bridge. But the Amanero you have in the 004 is one already. It's just that the Amanero i2S is internal and not obvious to you. You can opt for an external USB/i2S bridge like the LKS one or the Singxer SU-1. The pros and cons of that had been debated to death already. In your case, I might just look at a better usb cable as a low hanging fruit improvement (assuming the one you have is not so good).


----------



## Whitigir (May 21, 2018)

The funny thing about Native DSD VS PCM and how it Get converted to Analog is very funny and in a way.....confusing.

See, everyone just want to know if they are playing Native DSD, or it gets converted.  The truth is that Native DSD is 1 bit of a PCM which is 64x upsampled.  In a sense, the Sigma-Delta conversion *is done by the recording studio* and not by your *DAC*.  Because everyone want to listen to *studio grade or what the studio wants you to hear*, so they always want to be able to play Native DSD.

In reality, Native DSD is one bit, and that is that.  You make it go through a lowpass filter, and it becomes Analog signals.

So then, how about your DAC dealing with CD-quality PCM ? Remember, PCM of CD quality is already an accepted standard.  Well, _it gets modulated into....guess what....1 bit _*PCM streams. *Because 1 bit PCM stream is DSD.  You can simply say that all of your PCM is being converted into DSD before going through lowpass filter to become analog.

What important is *how was your PCM being modulated into this 1bit PCM ?*  This is where different *manufacturers ESS/Wolfson/BurrBrown/AKS....etc...are coming into play*, and then how was your lowpass filter being implemented, the clock informations designed....this is where different *manufacturers come to play by using different implementations/executions to apply to the same sigma-delta chips*.

Everything, including Native DSD, or CD-PCM.....are going to be *modulated* and become DSD 1 bit.

So, everything before the Modulation are talking and communicating Via-PCM or I2S, and then it is up to the Modulations to convert into 1 bit streams.  Native DSD also gets Converted into PCM via (I2S) if you are using it, and then modulated to streams.  If you are using USB, the Native DSD informations are carried *on into your receiving modules....guess what....to be converted into I2S....or PCM....before being modulated to 1 bit streams. ...DOP is still PCM lol
*
_*In the end, I2S Direct is a way to go, regardless of the bridge or interface can only do Multibit PCM, it is just a direct way to preserve all information digitally before conversion to analog without plethora of other things in the chain*_.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Well, just as long as you don’t have any complaints about it.  Then don’t worry, the more you seek out, the more money you will end up spending



TRUE  ...IT IS! 
Before I used a PC, I used my everyday laptop for music and I asked teddy pardo if it was worth powering it with LPSU and he said 'NO', save your money for something else! Negligible gains for £350-£400.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> The funny thing about Native DSD VS PCM and how it Get converted to Analog is very funny and in a way.....confusing.
> 
> See, everyone just want to know if they are playing Native DSD, or it gets converted.  The truth is that Native DSD is 1 bit of a PCM which is 64x upsampled.  In a sense, the Sigma-Delta conversion *is done by the recording studio* and not by your *DAC*.  Because everyone want to listen to *studio grade or what the studio wants you to hear*, so they always want to be able to play Native DSD.
> 
> ...



"say what?!?!?!"


----------



## Whitigir (May 21, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> "say what?!?!?!"


Simply put, all pcm is converted to 1 bit streams before going to analog stages for DAC.

1 bit stream is DSD Native format

The differences between your DSD albums VS PCM into 1 bit stream = your albums were converted by the *studio and not your DAC 
*
So, in the end.  Do you want to listen to DSD from the Studio ? Or from your super-duper-expensive DAC ? Then you can go with Native DSD Vs PCM.  In the end, all DAC needs to communicate in *Multibit *and that is I2S (format).  In order to use I2S to carry DSD (natively) informations, it have to be DOP (DSD over PCM-the informations won’t be lost).

The kicker is that, using USB out into DAC USB in, you are using Amanero to be *bridge conversion usb-i2s*.  You will see Native DSD being displayed, but it is displays by the Atmel/Xmos chips which do the conversions instead.  After this, it becomes *DOP!*  There is *no Native DSD* LoL

I can summarize it to be even shorter:

_All DAC talks/communicate by I2S, and I2S is *Multibit, that means PCM or DOP only.  *No 1 bit DSD !  You can use USB interface to convert to *i2s or you can do Native i2s !
*_
People are stuck with USB because all manufacturers are pushing USB, look at Chord Dave, $12k, and no I2S direct input Hahahaha! LKS004 is $1600 Upgraded Amanero but has I2S input Hahahahah


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Simply put, all pcm is converted to 1 bit streams before going to analog stages for DAC.
> 
> 1 bit stream is DSD Native format
> 
> ...



thanks. bit clearer now matey!


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> TRUE  ...IT IS!
> Before I used a PC, I used my everyday laptop for music and I asked teddy pardo if it was worth powering it with LPSU and he said 'NO', save your money for something else! Negligible gains for £350-£400.



Well, the problems with PC is that it is noisy as there are too many things running and tapping into it power grid!

Modern PC has Regulators built-in on the Motherboard in order to meet the precision demands of modern CPU and technologies (that means LPS is very important)

But too many components tapping into it, and the computer may stalls or froze as it got interrupted.  In order to solve the issues, there are more regulators added on Gaming and enthusiast mother boards for overclock and so on.  So, if you have a beefy motherboard and good build....even Pinkfaun has Regulator built in....then you are at the minimum standards, and as long as it is standards you are fine.  If you don’t hear the differences, you are fine.

Now, will LPS bring improvements ? Definitely, but by how much ? Who knows, can you tell ? If not, why bother.


----------



## Paul Staples (May 21, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Well, the problems with PC is that it is noisy as there are too many things running and tapping into it power grid!
> 
> Modern PC has Regulators built-in on the Motherboard in order to meet the precision demands of modern CPU and technologies (that means LPS is very important)
> 
> ...



_"the problems with PC is that it is noisy as there are too many things running and tapping into it power grid!"


But the LPSU helps to overcome this issue - yes?
_
Well, there are hifi streamers out there for $10,000!! I'm guessing you get a PCB, transformers, processors, caps, resistors, wiring etc. JUST THE SAME AS IN MY PC, but my PC was a fraction of the cost of a streamer. And like a streamer I can get spotify, tidal, internet radio, if I want it (?), I don't listen to radio, only albums! Some streamers have massive HDD's but I can fit massive HDD's to my PC if I want to! So, why buy a streamer?  ...is it 'better' reproduction than a PC perhaps? Certainly the streamer is dedicated to it's purpose and built for music, but I use the highest quality mainboards and other brand components like i2s, and I only have apps on there for music, not used for 'all and sundry'! If I got a streamer and plugged in my memory stick I am very doubtful that I would hear any noticeable gains, above and beyond my PC's 'limitations' (bearing in mind I can add more memory, more powerful CPU, larger HDD's etc. - PC is very flexible in this respect!). So, are there any advantages to buying a streamer over a PC?


----------



## Whitigir (May 21, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> _"the problems with PC is that it is noisy as there are too many things running and tapping into it power grid!"
> 
> 
> But the LPSU helps to overcome this issue - yes?
> ...



Streamers have the best PSU a manufacturer know how, and then it has a dedicated clocking system with TCXO or fancy OCXO that are needed to produce the most musical details without losing or compromising too much.

Those are what being lacked behind that a PC can not do.

However, technology has progressed so far that now you don’t have to stick with traditional PC like it used to be, just programming and or some video gaming.

Just like dedicated Graphic cards, it runs on PCI-e and has a system of it own, even firmware and software.  What about sound card ? *How about sound quality ?
*
You get it, *Pinkfaun is the leading company that seriously developing the most advances i2s and OCXO system.*  You can buy these clocks and upgrade your motherboard clocks.  Or you can buy the clock and upgrade it onto your *Pinkfaun sound card
*
Now, what do you need ? A _*LPS which was previously not as powerful and efficient at the lowest noise floor.  They used to be very noisy, and not as beefy*_.  Since HD-Plex released 400W of LPS with 2-3mV of current noises.  It is an ideal LPS to make an audiophile streamer into your DAC.  Beside, to not having too much ripple noises from the likes of DC fans, you just need to take it out and go *passive cooling or fanless. *

*Pinkfaun has both, I2S audiocard and USB audiocard.*

Technically speaking, that is just that.  Then some manufacturers claim an extreme usages if *exotics materials/components* to help with Audio reproductions as well.  It depends on how much expensive these components and parts and how much it involves the manufacturers tuning is to voice the device what it is.  Hence the expensive pricing

*Again, check out sound gallery streamer it is a $16,000 Computer *


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Streamers have the best PSU a manufacturer know how, and then it has a dedicated clocking system with TCXO or fancy OCXO that are needed to produce the most musical details without losing or compromising too much.



But surely the i2s has good clocks?



Whitigir said:


> What about sound card ? *How about sound quality ?*



I don't need a sound card, I have the LKS 004 DAC.



Whitigir said:


> You get it, *Pinkfaun is the leading company that seriously developing the most advances i2s and OCXO system.*  You can buy these clocks and upgrade your motherboard clocks.  Or you can buy the clock and upgrade it onto your *Pinkfaun sound card*



I don't need a sound card, I have the LKS 004 DAC.



Whitigir said:


> Now, what do you need ? A _*LPS which was previously not as powerful and efficient at the lowest noise floor.  They used to be very noisy, and not as beefy*_.  Since HD-Plex released 400W of LPS with 2-3mV of current noises.  It is an ideal LPS to make an audiophile streamer into your DAC.  Beside, to not having too much ripple noises from the likes of DC fans, you just need to take it out and go *passive cooling or fanless.*



I don't know if there is a fanless cooler that will fit the Lian Li PC-C50B Black Aluminium Micro ATX Media Centre HTPC Case & Core i7 intel processor? I have 3 fans coolong the case, how can I make that fanless?



Whitigir said:


> *Pinkfaun has both, I2S audiocard and USB audiocard.*



I don't need an audiocard, I have the LKS 004 DAC.



Whitigir said:


> some manufacturers claim an extreme usages if *exotics materials/components* to help with Audio reproductions. Hence the expensive pricing



Like Audio Note EXPENSIVE (£xxx) capacitors!! Not worth it, snake oil. Interesting that they don't publish a full list of Tech. Spec. for these things, what are they hiding? Vishay/Philips are just as good for a few quid each!



Whitigir said:


> *Again, check out sound gallery streamer it is a $16,000 Computer *



There's probably something out there NEARLY as good for $1000. You just have to find it. e.g. LKS 004 Vs. dSC vivaldi. (dSC = much more expensive workforce/labour charges).

So, I have:

dedicated:

main speakers, sub, pure sine wave regenerator, valve amp, LKS 004.

The only part of the system that is NOT DEDICATED (to music production) is the PC it self! - So what is the best solution for transport of digital media from a USB memory stick (what device?)?


----------



## Whitigir (May 22, 2018)

I thought u had a Pinkfaun Soundcard and was using it ?

Pinkfaun Soundcard will play a role to make your PC to become high end audio, instead of it traditional programming and or gaming.....

I2s is better than usb.  You can buy other transports like Soundaware D300Ref for $1900, and it has plethora of output and a good clocking system, with good powersupply

Clocks and it systems does more than just jitter controls

It is fine if you don’t have the need and want to spend further.   But there is always gain to be had


----------



## Paul Staples

smps:

SEASONIC PRIME TITANIUM

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story6&reid=487

this review is amazing! Nearly as good a ripple current as the HDPLEX! (and much cheaper).


----------



## Paul Staples (May 22, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> I thought u had a Pinkfaun Soundcard and was using it ?
> 
> Pinkfaun Soundcard will play a role to make your PC to become high end audio, instead of it traditional programming and or gaming.....
> 
> ...



I have the i2s PCI-e card which sends the signal to the LKS 004. But I don't have a traditional soundcard like asus xonar. The PC is purely sending digital info to the LKS, I have no analogue going on in the sound path within the PC it self! Incidentally I thought that electronic noise was only a problem in the analogue domain? i.e. digital transport unaffected by RFI/EMI ripple current. That is why some sound cards have the analogue part galvanically isolated to minimise the 'noise'?

To make it clearer, I don't personally see the i2s as a soundcard/audiocard. I see the LKS as a soundcard!


----------



## Whitigir (May 22, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> I have the i2s PCI-e card which sends the signal to the LKS 004. But I don't have a traditional soundcard like asus xonar. The PC is purely sending digital info to the LKS, I have no analogue going on in the sound path within the PC it self! Incidentally I thought that electronic noise was only a problem in the analogue domain? i.e. digital transport unaffected by RFI/EMI ripple current. That is why some sound cards have the analogue part galvanically isolated to minimise the 'noise'?
> 
> To make it clearer, I don't personally see the i2s as a soundcard/audiocard. I see the LKS as a soundcard!



And what is your Soundcard ? Isn’t it Pinkfaun as you linked posts ago ? Let’s not debate what terminology these pci-e are being called.  We are talking about digital transport means from a computer toward a DAC such a lks004

The PSU you linked look good for gaming purposes.  It is still switching supply but only advertised at better doing it.

If it is linear, then it would be advertised so

Also, don’t forget that dedicated audio components also affect sound quality.  This is where it gets much more expensive.  Streamers that cost 16-17k are likely to use a lot of exotic materials inside. *HDPlex *uses Etna audio caps and Rcore Transformer


----------



## rikm

Paul Staples said:


> dedicated:
> 
> main speakers, sub, pure sine wave regenerator, valve amp, LKS 004.
> 
> The only part of the system that is NOT DEDICATED (to music production) is the PC it self! - So what is the best solution for transport of digital media from a USB memory stick (what device?)?




...well fwiw, I use a similar simple setup 

PC > [optional DDC] > DAC > tube amp > speakers

and a PC device is dedicated to each stereo

I have played with several small fanless PC devices, and have been using Cubox i-4 for a while...it is a small ARM box that I run with a more or less current Fedora...not sure if it would do windoze, but I recently got an Asrock BeeBox to play with and pretty sure that will


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> And what is your Soundcard ? Isn’t it Pinkfaun as you linked posts ago ? Let’s not debate what terminology these pci-e are being called.  We are talking about digital transport means from a computer toward a DAC such a lks004
> 
> The PSU you linked look good for gaming purposes.  It is still switching supply but only advertised at better doing it.
> 
> If it is linear, then it would be advertised so



Yes I appreciate it is still switching, but it appears to be as good as it gets in this respect? It can't quite match the linear ripple current, but to offset that, it is less than half the price!
*Seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium*

https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/seasonic-prime-ultra-titanium-1000w-psu,review-34284-12.html
https://www.kitguru.net/components/...e-ultra-titanium-1000w-power-supply-review/6/
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story6&reid=536
https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Cases...anium-Power-Supply/Final-Thoughts-and-Conclus
https://www.hardocp.com/article/2018/01/15/seasonic_prime_ultra_750w_power_supply_review/9

PS: To make it clearer, I don't personally see the i2s as a soundcard/audiocard. I see the LKS as a soundcard!


----------



## Paul Staples

rikm said:


> ...well fwiw, I use a similar simple setup
> 
> PC > [optional DDC] > DAC > tube amp > speakers
> 
> ...


what is DDC & DOP?


----------



## Whitigir (May 22, 2018)

Being linear supply will have a lot more advantage to sound quality.  But let’s just not debate this can of worm.  I have seen rediculously expensive devices that still uses switching power supply.  From my basic knowledge/experiences I know for a fact that linear is a much better power supply.

But just as long as people are satisfied with what they have, there is no need to investigate to spend further

I am simply answering why streamers of $16,000 and or above.  There are much much more that can affect sound quality, and PSU is just one of them.  As you already have seen

Clocking systems, and the materials that are used to built it.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Being linear supply will have a lot more advantage to sound quality.  But let’s just not debate this can of worm.  I have seen rediculously expensive devices that still uses switching power supply.  From my basic knowledge/experiences I know for a fact that linear is a much better power supply.
> 
> But just as long as people are satisfied with what they have, there is no need to investigate to spend further
> 
> ...



I am not happy with my SMPS unit! The reviews are not too good, to say the least! I think I can find a 'better' SMPS unit. And I think I will try 'the best' SMPS unit (i.e. seasonic), I think that will be a cheap upgrade from the Thermaltake Toughpower. It seems the seasonic SMPS is king of the castle according to many reviews, and I should be able to get a bit back for my thermaltake on ebay. I don't think there is anywhere I could try/demo 'a linear' for free in the UK? (try before you buy).  What I do know as a fact, is that when I had the teddy pardo LPSU on the laptop, I couldn't perceive that much of a difference to the pavilion g6's own switching unit; that may be different on a PC? Teddy Pardo himself advised against the LPSU purchase (thus depriving himself of a sale/purchase!)   ...at least he's honest!


----------



## rikm

Paul Staples said:


> what is DDC & DOP?




...well, DoP is DSD over PCM, there is plenty of info around here on the details, but you shouldn't really have to go down that path with the LKS4

and a DDC is a Digital to Digital Converter, e.g. in my case, USB to I2s

I have been testing the 2 I have with the LKS DAC4 because it tends to lose phase lock even at BW15 while playing high rez PCM or DSD files, the insertion of a DDC between the PC and the DAC has made that go away


----------



## Paul Staples

rikm said:


> ...well, DoP is DSD over PCM, there is plenty of info around here on the details, but you shouldn't really have to go down that path with the LKS4
> 
> and a DDC is a Digital to Digital Converter, e.g. in my case, USB to I2s
> 
> I have been testing the 2 I have with the LKS DAC4 because it tends to lose phase lock even at BW15 while playing high rez PCM or DSD files, the insertion of a DDC between the PC and the DAC has made that go away


OK - thanks!


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Being linear supply will have a lot more advantage to sound quality.  But let’s just not debate this can of worm. There are much much more that can affect sound quality, and PSU is just one of them.



So, what advantages does linear have? I already accept that it is better than SMPS, but the linear is prohibitively expensive for me and that is why I am upgrading from the Thermaltake to the Seasonic SMPS.


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> So, what advantages does linear have? I already accept that it is better than SMPS, but the linear is prohibitively expensive for me and that is why I am upgrading from the Thermaltake to the Seasonic SMPS.



Stability and power is always ready to be tapped on.  It is like a continuous stream of flowing river but without ripple current.  You can not see the flows (visually), the lower the ripple current noises, the more stability it has.

I have my PC built fresh, and now I am enjoying LKS004 without losing DPLL at Bw_01 out of gigabit onboard usb output....this is crazy


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Stability and power is always ready to be tapped on.  It is like a continuous stream of flowing river but without ripple current.  You can not see the flows (visually), the lower the ripple current noises, the more stability it has.
> 
> I have my PC built fresh, and now I am enjoying LKS004 without losing DPLL at Bw_01 out of gigabit onboard usb output....this is crazy



...are you saying you have a gigabit USB in the LKS004,not sure of your meaning?


----------



## littlexx26

or gigabyte mainboard onboard usb output?


----------



## Paul Staples

...the teradak LPSU is $985 B.T.W.


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Stability and power is always ready to be tapped on.  It is like a continuous stream of flowing river but without ripple current.  You can not see the flows (visually), the lower the ripple current noises, the more stability it has.
> 
> I have my PC built fresh, and now I am enjoying LKS004 without losing DPLL at Bw_01 out of gigabit onboard usb output....this is crazy


so that means after you change the silver wire in the usb borad in 004, you can now set at bw_01?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> or gigabyte mainboard onboard usb output?


Yes, this


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> so that means after you change the silver wire in the usb borad in 004, you can now set at bw_01?


No, after I built my new dedicated PC streamer.  I could not lock into BW-01 even after upgrading silver wires, but it helped to lower noises only


----------



## rettib2001

Whitigir said:


> No, after I built my new dedicated PC streamer.  I could not lock into BW-01 even after upgrading silver wires, but it helped to lower noises only



Are you playing PCM or DSD/upsampled DSD? 

I've always been able to lock at BW-01 with PCM and 6/7 for DSD, through an Allo usbridge (streamer that costs aroubd ($180).

I wonder what precise component in all of our different setups is creating such different experiences regarding stable bandwidth.


----------



## gruvytune

rettib2001 said:


> Are you playing PCM or DSD/upsampled DSD?
> 
> I've always been able to lock at BW-01 with PCM and 6/7 for DSD, through an Allo usbridge (streamer that costs aroubd ($180).
> 
> I wonder what precise component in all of our different setups is creating such different experiences regarding stable bandwidth.



Mine locks at 6/7 to with most PCM or DSD. Some high rate DSD I need 9/10. 
I go jriver from dedicated laptop USB.


----------



## Whitigir (May 23, 2018)

rettib2001 said:


> Are you playing PCM or DSD/upsampled DSD?
> 
> I've always been able to lock at BW-01 with PCM and 6/7 for DSD, through an Allo usbridge (streamer that costs aroubd ($180).
> 
> I wonder what precise component in all of our different setups is creating such different experiences regarding stable bandwidth.





gruvytune said:


> Mine locks at 6/7 to with most PCM or DSD. Some high rate DSD I need 9/10.
> I go jriver from dedicated laptop USB.




Yes, I stream PCM into BW-01.  However, DSD Native have to be at around BW-06/7.  It is easy to understand why, it is the clocking system on the motherboard which is not capable of withstanding this much stress as when doing DSD, the computer is doing this job instead of the DAC

DPLL is a form of Jitter control.  The more the computer or streamer process, the more stress it is loaded onto it clock and processing prowess.  I actually built this PC for I2S playback, and it still will be PCM anyways.  So I don’t mind using PCM.  I knew if I wanted to do better on DSD Native, I needed to upgrade motherboard clock, which will be another $800 if I do it myself LoL!

Just very surprisingly that onboard USB from a good build can have such good result.  If I wanted USB, I could upgrade to Pinkfaun USB+OCXO clock system.  It is totally capable of doing so.  I just don’t have a plan to spend another $1200 or so for such interface


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> No, after I built my new dedicated PC streamer.  I could not lock into BW-01 even after upgrading silver wires, but it helped to lower noises only


 what are the components in your new dedicated PC streamer please? (inc. psu, wires, chassis etc.)


----------



## norbert2nd (May 23, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Yes, I stream PCM into BW-01.  However, DSD Native have to be at around BW-06/7.  It is easy to understand why, it is the clocking system on the motherboard which is not capable of withstanding this much stress as when doing DSD, the computer is doing this job instead of the DAC
> 
> DPLL is a form of Jitter control.  The more the computer or streamer process, the more stress it is loaded onto it clock and processing prowess.  I actually built this PC for I2S playback, and it still will be PCM anyways.  So I don’t mind using PCM.  I knew if I wanted to do better on DSD Native, I needed to upgrade motherboard clock, which will be another $800 if I do it myself LoL!


Interesting! I'm also using BW01 for PCM and BW07 for native DSD. My server is a Daphile linux server. I don't think that the digital PLLs in the ES9038 chips are locking onto any clock contained in your PC. What I think is happening is that the digital PLL in the DAC locks on the different clocks provided by the AMANERO USB-interface. I know that doesn't explain the higher BW-setting for DSD. My guess is that DSD-data is somehow harder to lock on compared to PCM-data. Anyone any further information? Perhaps someone in knowledge of the original ESS datasheet?


----------



## Whitigir (May 23, 2018)

norbert2nd said:


> Interesting! I'm also using BW01 for PCM and BW07 for native DSD. My server is a Daphile linux server. I don't think that the digital PLLs in the ES9038 chips are locking onto any clock contained in your PC. What I think is happening is that the digital PLL in the DAC locks on the different clocks provided by the AMANERO USB-interface. I know that doesn't explain the higher BW-setting for DSD. My guess is that DSD-data is somehow harder to lock on compared to PCM-data. Anyone any further information? Perhaps someone in knowledge of the original ESS datasheet?



That is also very possible! Hence I am trying to get away from USB.  But remember, there are a clock system for USB data being sent at 20Mhz on the motherboard itself, and perhap upgrading it, will upgrade the whole digital audio processing for all Onboard USB.  Take a look at Sound Gallery streamer, a $16,000 system!

Now, for you to be able to do that, you would have to desolder your little Clock on the board, and then add a linear external power supply into the clock system, and then solder or wires it onto the motherboard.  Doing this will net all usb-ports to be the beneficiary.  However, Pinkfaun also do have a USB module bridge that can have upgraded OCXO on it.



Paul Staples said:


> what are the components in your new dedicated PC streamer please? (inc. psu, wires, chassis etc.)



HDPlex 400W
Streacom FC9-Alpha chassis (awaiting fanless coolant now)
I7-8700 65W
16Gb DDR4
250gb Samsung SSD (awaiting M2 1Tb)
Awaiting *Pinkfaun I2S with OCXO* the main unit
ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-G GAMING. WiFi



ESS typical blocks picture.  This Amanero on the LKS-004 is being read as 192khz max.  So there is that.  I am trying to get away from USB as there are too many Conversion steps to be done.  Just very surprised that a dedicated PC build can do wonderful on USB out.  The ease of WindowsOS, and the ability to do whatever the heck...LOL


----------



## Whitigir

2 pieces with 7" touch screen that I can move around, and jriver with remote on ipad.  Very compact build and as the PSU stays separately the Main unit barely get warm as CPU temp is staying 35c only with stock coolant


----------



## xiamen

norbert2nd said:


> Interesting! I'm also using BW01 for PCM and BW07 for native DSD. My server is a Daphile linux server. I don't think that the digital PLLs in the ES9038 chips are locking onto any clock contained in your PC. What I think is happening is that the digital PLL in the DAC locks on the different clocks provided by the AMANERO USB-interface. I know that doesn't explain the higher BW-setting for DSD. My guess is that DSD-data is somehow harder to lock on compared to PCM-data. Anyone any further information? Perhaps someone in knowledge of the original ESS datasheet?


So you are getting Pink Faun i2s with their OCXO clock. That's $1200 in itself. I doubt you need to put OCXO upgrade on motherboard as well then. Actually if you look at the Pink Faun price list, it's quite expensive for everything. I can get a Paul Pang Studio usb pcie v3/v4 with OCXO for around $450, less than half of what Pink Faun is charging. Their linear-powered music server is over 10,000 euro. Not for the those with a shallow pocket. 
Re DSD, there are different levels. If you are playing SACD native, it's DSD64 and it shouldn't be that challenging. I can do that on my system at DPLL 3. On jriver, you should use maximum buffer size of 500 msec. But use small buffer rather than large. This will help. According to Jim Hall at jriver, larger buffer doesn't degrade sound quality, just means take a little longer to search or switch tracks. Even with SACD, there are different recordings from different engineers. From what I read, many are not true SACD recordings, just re-engineered from PCM. They gave SACD a bad name.  But then there are some truly magnificent ones. The Well by Jennifer Warnes come to mind. Listen to it, and you may be suck into becoming a DSD fan. I strive to play all recordings upsampled to DSD512. With that I can play at DPLL 9. Just bought a Wireworld startlight hdmi cable 0.3m. BTW, i2s connection are meant to be for internal and therefore the shorter the better. Disregarding my listening "test", when I think improves the sound, a better indication is now I can begin to play at DPLL 8. Kind of suggest the cable does make a difference.
Why DSD512? It sounds better to me is the answer. You can also get an opinion from this article https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/.


----------



## littlexx26

this mojo article mentions MQA tidal using, many already said MQA is not good. but mojo did not. odd.


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> this mojo article mentions MQA tidal using, many already said MQA is not good. but mojo did not. odd.


To each of their own.  Not everyone like the same kind of music, otherwise the world would be boring


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Yes, I stream PCM into BW-01.  However, DSD Native have to be at around BW-06/7.  It is easy to understand why, it is the clocking system on the motherboard which is not capable of withstanding this much stress as when doing DSD, the computer is doing this job instead of the DAC
> 
> DPLL is a form of Jitter control.  The more the computer or streamer process, the more stress it is loaded onto it clock and processing prowess.  I actually built this PC for I2S playback, and it still will be PCM anyways.  So I don’t mind using PCM.  I knew if I wanted to do better on DSD Native, I needed to upgrade motherboard clock, which will be another $800 if I do it myself LoL!
> 
> Just very surprisingly that onboard USB from a good build can have such good result.  If I wanted USB, I could upgrade to Pinkfaun USB+OCXO clock system.  It is totally capable of doing so.  I just don’t have a plan to spend another $1200 or so for such interface



I don't have any such clock problems/issues with my Asus ROG strix z270g Intel lga 1151, always works on BW_01


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> That is also very possible! Hence I am trying to get away from USB.  But remember, there are a clock system for USB data being sent at 20Mhz on the motherboard itself, and perhap upgrading it, will upgrade the whole digital audio processing for all Onboard USB.  Take a look at Sound Gallery streamer, a $16,000 system!
> 
> Now, for you to be able to do that, you would have to desolder your little Clock on the board, and then add a linear external power supply into the clock system, and then solder or wires it onto the motherboard.  Doing this will net all usb-ports to be the beneficiary.  However, Pinkfaun also do have a USB module bridge that can have upgraded OCXO on it.
> 
> ...



Many thanks for your new system 'run-down', "ENJOY!" 

Compare: (mine)

Seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium 650 (awaiting)
Lian Li PC-C50B Black Aluminium Micro ATX Media Centre HTPC Case
I7-6700K 91W 4GHz.
16Gb DDR4
Kingston SSDNow M.2 240gb SATA G2 Drive SM2280S3G2240G
pink-faun-i2s-bridge-pcie-card
ASUS ROG STRIX Z270-G GAMING. WiFi
Asus ROG Strix GeForce GTX 1050 (2GB) 
ASUS x24 DVDCD Re-Writer with M-DISC Support DRW-24D5M


----------



## Paul Staples (May 24, 2018)

xiamen said:


> So you are getting Pink Faun i2s with their OCXO clock. That's $1200 in itself. I doubt you need to put OCXO upgrade on motherboard as well then. Actually if you look at the Pink Faun price list, it's quite expensive for everything. I can get a Paul Pang Studio usb pcie v3/v4 with OCXO for around $450, less than half of what Pink Faun is charging. Their linear-powered music server is over 10,000 euro. Not for the those with a shallow pocket.
> Re DSD, there are different levels. If you are playing SACD native, it's DSD64 and it shouldn't be that challenging. I can do that on my system at DPLL 3. On jriver, you should use maximum buffer size of 500 msec. But use small buffer rather than large. This will help. According to Jim Hall at jriver, larger buffer doesn't degrade sound quality, just means take a little longer to search or switch tracks. Even with SACD, there are different recordings from different engineers. From what I read, many are not true SACD recordings, just re-engineered from PCM. They gave SACD a bad name.  But then there are some truly magnificent ones. The Well by Jennifer Warnes come to mind. Listen to it, and you may be suck into becoming a DSD fan. I strive to play all recordings upsampled to DSD512. With that I can play at DPLL 9. Just bought a Wireworld startlight hdmi cable 0.3m. BTW, i2s connection are meant to be for internal and therefore the shorter the better. Disregarding my listening "test", when I think improves the sound, a better indication is now I can begin to play at DPLL 8. Kind of suggest the cable does make a difference.
> Why DSD512? It sounds better to me is the answer. You can also get an opinion from this article https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/.


got this one: (50cm)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PREMIUM-UltraHD-HDMI-Cable-v2-0-0-5M-1M-1-5M-2M-10M-High-Speed-4K-2160p-3D-Lead/253358091472?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&var=552519658270&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> So you are getting Pink Faun i2s with their OCXO clock. That's $1200 in itself. I doubt you need to put OCXO upgrade on motherboard as well then. Actually if you look at the Pink Faun price list, it's quite expensive for everything. I can get a Paul Pang Studio usb pcie v3/v4 with OCXO for around $450, less than half of what Pink Faun is charging. Their linear-powered music server is over 10,000 euro. Not for the those with a shallow pocket.
> Re DSD, there are different levels. If you are playing SACD native, it's DSD64 and it shouldn't be that challenging. I can do that on my system at DPLL 3. On jriver, you should use maximum buffer size of 500 msec. But use small buffer rather than large. This will help. According to Jim Hall at jriver, larger buffer doesn't degrade sound quality, just means take a little longer to search or switch tracks. Even with SACD, there are different recordings from different engineers. From what I read, many are not true SACD recordings, just re-engineered from PCM. They gave SACD a bad name.  But then there are some truly magnificent ones. The Well by Jennifer Warnes come to mind. Listen to it, and you may be suck into becoming a DSD fan. I strive to play all recordings upsampled to DSD512. With that I can play at DPLL 9. Just bought a Wireworld startlight hdmi cable 0.3m. BTW, i2s connection are meant to be for internal and therefore the shorter the better. Disregarding my listening "test", when I think improves the sound, a better indication is now I can begin to play at DPLL 8. Kind of suggest the cable does make a difference.
> Why DSD512? It sounds better to me is the answer. You can also get an opinion from this article https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/.



Yes sir! Our bridge for audio is nothing compares to High-end Graphic card! LOL.

I have looked at Paulpang and it look very good! However, I don’t mind paying the differences if the Pinkfaun is of better quality at all.

From this link


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> Many thanks for your new system 'run-down', "ENJOY!"
> 
> Compare: (mine)
> 
> ...



Very nice build, you have a computer for universally entertainments, and it is where we differ.  I am building for dedicated music streaming, so linear supply, external supply, and absolute silent are needed.  I only use integrated video on the board.  

Does your Pinkfaun has OCXO Upgraded clock ? How does it sound ?

Please buy approved HDMI cables.  It constructions are more important than what type of materials are being used, if you want good performances.  Don’t cheap out with in-approved cables


----------



## Lodwales81

Wow the LKS da004 cost around £1200 shipped then people are spending another couple of thousand on power supplies and hi spec PC's, pushing me towards a chord qutest.


----------



## Lennym

Lodwales81 said:


> Wow the LKS da004 cost around £1200 shipped then people are spending another couple of thousand on power supplies and hi spec PC's, pushing me towards a chord qutest.


Don't let all this chatter around here discourage you.  There's no accounting for what people will do. 

I play ripped CDs and SACDs and some hi def downloads using a spare portable hard drive into an ASUS laptop, that i had anyway, and out its USB port into the LKS.  I sounds great, generally equaling or surpassing a pretty good analog system using a three stage tube Phono pre.  I use JRiver and control all the music from my phone.  I have my LKS almost a year now and it's the best audio purchase I have ever made.

Are there better DACs?  Is my set-up as good as some that are spending all this money on accessories?  I really don't know nor care.


----------



## Lodwales81

Lennym said:


> Don't let all this chatter around here discourage you.  There's no accounting for what people will do.
> 
> I play ripped CDs and SACDs and some hi def downloads using a spare portable hard drive into an ASUS laptop, that i had anyway, and out its USB port into the LKS.  I sounds great, generally equaling or surpassing a pretty good analog system using a three stage tube Phono pre.  I use JRiver and control all the music from my phone.  I have my LKS almost a year now and it's the best audio purchase I have ever made.
> 
> Are there better DACs?  Is my set-up as good as some that are spending all this money on accessories?  I really don't know nor care.


----------



## Whitigir

I do not want to build a PC.  It is not LKS004 that steer me into building a PC dedicated for I2S.  It is my AudioGD r2r7.

You can spend all the money you want on a DAC, but if you don’t have a good Transport, it would just gimp down the DAC capability.  The LKS004 is very capable DAC, and regardless if you want to buy it, keep it, it is future proof the way I see it.


----------



## Lodwales81

Mine is a simple set up , Audirvana - MacBook pro- schiit eitr (spdif) - schiit bitfrost (replacing with lks da004 or chord qutest ) beyerdynamic a2 headphone amp- beyerdynamic t1g2 headphones or bypass headphones and amp and play through yaqin mc13s which was bough mostly for my vinyl.


----------



## Whitigir

Lodwales81 said:


> Mine is a simple set up , Audirvana - MacBook pro- schiit eitr (spdif) - schiit bitfrost (replacing with lks da004 or chord qutest ) beyerdynamic a2 headphone amp- beyerdynamic t1g2 headphones or bypass headphones and amp and play through yaqin mc13s which was bough mostly for my vinyl.



Audio performances is a rabbit hole...the deeper you dig, the more confused you are, and the more damage to your pockets.

More than often, we, forget our objectives....to be satisfied....but since when has human known satisfaction ? Lol.....

I think I need meditations and lobotomy


----------



## Paul Staples (May 24, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Very nice build, you have a computer for universally entertainments, and it is where we differ.  I am building for dedicated music streaming, so linear supply, external supply, and absolute silent are needed.  I only use integrated video on the board.
> 
> Does your Pinkfaun has OCXO Upgraded clock ? How does it sound ?
> 
> Please buy approved HDMI cables.  It constructions are more important than what type of materials are being used, if you want good performances.  Don’t cheap out with in-approved cables



I was intending to use on board video, but the INTEL graphics are not compatible with my Samsung UE40ES7000 television. I checked online and forums say there is a bug with the intel graphics and certain TV's/monitors and mine is one of them! I tested it with my older upstairs PC monitor and it works fine with that, but as soon as the TV is plugged in it just boots to a blank screen! So, I had to get a graphics card that would work with the TV because I don't want another monitor in the lounge due to space restrictions. 

I don't have the OCXO clock. Is that what plugs into the black socket on the i2s card? 

Where do I get approved HDMI cables from please? 

Yes, I agree that I could use it for universal entertainment etc. The graphics card is not cutting edge, but good enough for most PC games, if I ever go down that route, but I doubt it - some how!


----------



## Whitigir

I use a 7” touch screen on mine lol! $70 solution and means for audio service !


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I use a 7” touch screen on mine lol! $70 solution and means for audio service !



hdmi or snake oil: https://www.cnet.com/news/premium-hdmi-cable-certification-program-what-you-need-to-know/
...that is the question?


----------



## Whitigir (May 24, 2018)

There is no snake oil.  Characteristic impedance of a Cables is a matter of EE, and it is based on the constructions of the cables and it dielectrics.

Do not believe anyone who says “it doesn’t matter!” *It does matter, there are STANDARD for a reason, even Coax!
*
From headphones cables, to usb cables, all do play a role:  Look at Stax SR-009 headphones cables, it was constructed that way for a reasons, you can read more about it.  Then Coax cables, I already stated that my home made Coax Cables was losing DPLL from DX200, simply because I use home-made insulations foams and Solid Silver conductors.  Until I swapped it out to Neotech professional Coax Cables, and I stopped losing locks DPLL.  It is simple, because characteristic impedance on my homemade Coax was not consistent due to it constructions, and the dielectrics were not under engineering for good measures, the cables was just home made.

Take that for example, and HDMI with I2S is a further matter, where there are 19 wires, separated in 5 bundles with each of them having different characteristic impedance due to constructions, and the whole cables as a whole.  It further affecting the sound quality on the Jitter and noises.

You can go and read around from “people who self proclaim to be the known it all”.  I did it, and I witnessed it.  Then manufacturers don’t recommend home-made Coax, unless you do it with professional cables, and know what you are doing.  Period.

The Premium HDMI program is something “not of EE standard”


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> There is no snake oil.  Characteristic impedance of a Cables is a matter of EE, and it is based on the constructions of the cables and it dielectrics.
> 
> Do not believe anyone who says “it doesn’t matter!” *It does matter, there are STANDARD for a reason, even Coax!
> *
> ...



Where do I get approved HDMI cables from please?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> Where do I get approved HDMI cables from please?


https://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/enforcement_search_tool.aspx


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> https://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/enforcement_search_tool.aspx



well, pink faun isn't in that list with their ridiculously priced cables!


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> well, pink faun isn't in that list with their ridiculously priced cables!


Don’t be surprised.  They are not the only one

There are many audiophile claimed HDMI that is not qualified to be standard.

Matter of fact, I think I understand why manufacturers are pushing USB instead of I2S.  Because I2S was not designed to be used with cables (due to this characteristic impedance).  So in order to be using with cables, you need a strictly done HDMI (at least), and it is not easily done.  USB cables is another matter, because it is decided at the Modules inside your DAC, the USB cables impedance characteristic does not affect it as much.  So it is easier to Interconnect, and make/sell Audiophiles UsB cables 

That is where compromises lay at for the I2S downside


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Don’t be surprised.  They are not the only one
> 
> There are many audiophile claimed HDMI that is not qualified to be standard.
> 
> ...



well, how about this: https://www.cables2u.co.uk/premium-certified-hdmi-cable-hdcp-18gbps-shielded-p-1479.html

this claims to be certified


----------



## Paul Staples

...out of interest: a couple of posts ago you confirmed use of a gigabyte motherboard, but now you say you are using an Asus z370 mainboard? just a little disparity here? please explain - thank you!


----------



## Whitigir (May 24, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> ...out of interest: a couple of posts ago you confirmed use of a gigabyte motherboard, but now you say you are using an Asus z370 mainboard? just a little disparity here? please explain - thank you!


Nope, I wrongly put it as I didn’t really pay attentions to all the reading.  It is Asus Z370 with 3.1 that can do 10 Gigabits per second.  Apologies for the confusions.

Regarding HDMI, you can buy Monoprice cables,  very affordable and certified.  They have large wire sizes too with good silverplated copper, 24Awg as advertised, but more like 26Awg.  I cut one of them off for inspections and so on.

Here is amazon link


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> So, I put up my lks004 for sale for a short period @ 1,100 included regular priority shipping in the US.  But I don’t think people appreciate this DAC much.  They probably don’t believe how good the 004 is.
> 
> Anyways, from the modification of my R2R7.  I now have brought it into the LKS-004.  Instead of having the Amanero module easily removable (which is not necessary), having it straight soldered on instead of Brass-Pins = the best conductivity.
> 
> ...



reply from jinbo:

"Hi,
Sorry for late reply.
In my opinion, Mundorf silver/gold wire 0.5mm dia will be the best choice."
BR
Jinbo


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> reply from jinbo:
> 
> "Hi,
> Sorry for late reply.
> ...



Oh, yes, I always hold high regard for silver-gold wires , but I heavily prefer Silver for internal chassis


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Nope, I wrongly put it as I didn’t really pay attentions to all the reading.  It is Asus Z370 with 3.1 that can do 10 Gigabits per second.  Apologies for the confusions.
> 
> Regarding HDMI, you can buy Monoprice cables,  very affordable and certified.  They have large wire sizes too with good silverplated copper, 24Awg as advertised, but more like 26Awg.  I cut one of them off for inspections and so on.
> 
> Here is amazon link



OK, many thanks for this link. However. I only want a short cable 0.5m (50cm).
this one looks really good: https://www.amazon.co.uk/CSL-Ethern...7255906&sr=1-2&keywords=CSL+-+HDMI+cable+0.5m

CSL - 0.5 metres 4K HDMI Cable | HDMI 2.0b Standard | Certified Resolution: 4K @ 60 HZ ( 4096 × 2160 ) 160p, 48 bit/px color depth | supports bandwidth up to 18Gbps and HDR | Ultra HD Compatible
Real 3D and High Speed Ethernet capable | 100% backward compatible with HDMI 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.3abc,1.4, 1.4a, 1.4b @ 60 Hz | Multiple Shielding - 3x shilded: | Shielding: 3X shield / wire mesh - Alu-Mylar, wires in Alu-Mylar (SF / FTP) | HDMI A Male to A Male Lead | gold plated connectors
other Resolutions: 480i, 480p, 720i, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, 1440p, 2160p / Full support of extended color spaces, such as, x.v. Color and Deep Color
Audio format: Dolby Digital / Dolby Surround Sound / DTS HD Master Audio and Dolby Digital True HD 7.1 / SACD / DVD Audio | ARC (Audio Return Channel) | Available Lengths: 0.5 m / 1.64 ft | 1 m / 3.28 ft | 1.5 m / 4.92 ft | 2 m / 6.56 ft | 3 m / 9.84 ft | 5 m / 16.4 ft | 7.5 m / 24 ft | 10 m / 32.8 ft | 12.5 m / 41 ft | 15 meters / 49.2 feet
Suitable for: Home Cinema / Projector / Receiver / Monitors / 3D TV / Apple TV / Blu-Ray + DVD Player / XBOX 360 / One / One S / One X / Playstation 3 / Playstation 4 / Playstation 4 Pro / Nintendo Wii U / Nintendo Switch / Computer / PC / Monitor / Notebook / Laptop / MAC / iMAC / Macbook


----------



## Whitigir

As long as the specs are good and meeting standards, it matters more than the materials.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> As long as the specs are good and meeting standards, it matters more than the materials.


Why you shouldn’t waste money on extortionate HDMI ‘Premium’ cables
http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinion/the-ugly-truth-about-hdmi-cables-2951010


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> Why you shouldn’t waste money on extortionate HDMI ‘Premium’ cables
> http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinion/the-ugly-truth-about-hdmi-cables-2951010



Yes, I already known, and that is why I said so LOL! The constructions to meet the standard is much more important for HDMI, especially for I2S


----------



## Paul Staples (May 25, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Yes, I already known, and that is why I said so LOL! The constructions to meet the standard is much more important for HDMI, especially for I2S



https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01IA7DORU/ref=pe_3187911_185740111_TE_item

]


----------



## Paul Staples (May 25, 2018)

The pink faun OCXO is 650 euro's.
Can other (cheaper) OCXO's be used on that i2s card?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> The pink faun OCXO is 650 euro's.
> Can other (cheaper) OCXO's be used on that i2s card?



I have no idea, unless you are very technically capable ? A clock needs different parameters to work to it potentials.  I say just stick with what was intended by Pinkfaun.  Again, it is nothing compare to high-end graphic cards for video games


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I have no idea, unless you are very technically capable ? A clock needs different parameters to work to it potentials.  I say just stick with what was intended by Pinkfaun.  Again, it is nothing compare to high-end graphic cards for video games


found this:
"In the digital domain, the clock is one of the most important components. To achieve the best results with digital audio, Pink Faun has developed a module that is suitable for accommodating various OCXO clocks. The Pink Faun clock modules are equipped with a solid linear power supply with a buffer capacity of 10,000uF and various HF filters. The clock modules can be used in the digital signal path such as USB, SPDIF or I2S but can also be upgraded to the motherboard of a computer-based music server. By replacing the clock of the motherboard with a much more accurate Pink Faun clock, errors in the software, operating system and hardware are reduced and the processor is less loaded resulting in a more natural and analogue sound."


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> found this:
> "In the digital domain, the clock is one of the most important components. To achieve the best results with digital audio, Pink Faun has developed a module that is suitable for accommodating various OCXO clocks. The Pink Faun clock modules are equipped with a solid linear power supply with a buffer capacity of 10,000uF and various HF filters. The clock modules can be used in the digital signal path such as USB, SPDIF or I2S but can also be upgraded to the motherboard of a computer-based music server. By replacing the clock of the motherboard with a much more accurate Pink Faun clock, errors in the software, operating system and hardware are reduced and the processor is less loaded resulting in a more natural and analogue sound."



Yes, that is if you want to upgrade your motherboard.  IMO, the clocks is better to be on the (individual) itself, aka bi2s bridges or usb bridges, and leave the mobos alone


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Yes, that is if you want to upgrade your motherboard.  IMO, the clocks is better to be on the (individual) itself, aka bi2s bridges or usb bridges, and leave the mobos alone


yes, I  tend to agree with your analysis. I need to get saving up for the OCXO.


----------



## Paul Staples

take a look at these audioquest hdmi cables:
https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-diamond-hdmi-cable

...silver 0.5% -to- pure silver options. £899.

the basic one is £22 without silver, how much difference does the silver make?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> take a look at these audioquest hdmi cables:
> https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-diamond-hdmi-cable
> 
> ...silver 0.5% -to- pure silver options. £899.
> ...



Silver is the best conductor, and silver sound is of the highest transparency + clarity.  If you have bad system, you would hear brightness and sibilants, harshness.  I don’t know if I wanted or would invest into an HDMI pure silver for that money.  I know building HDMI to standard is very hard, and it is very important, much more than the *materials (silver) *itself


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Silver is the best conductor, and silver sound is of the highest transparency + clarity.  If you have bad system, you would hear brightness and sibilants, harshness.  I don’t know if I wanted or would invest into an HDMI pure silver for that money.  I know building HDMI to standard is very hard, and it is very important, much more than the *materials (silver) *itself



this was the first one I got before the 'CSL' ('above')....

*ACENTIX® HDMI 2.0 Cable Ultra UHD 4K 60Hz 18Gbps for SKY Q PS4 Pro XBox One S*

ACENTIX® Hdmi Cables are created for The New Generation Of Hdmi Devices. The Durable Braiding And High Quality Metal Ends Compete With Most High Street Cables, at a fraction of the cost. 

The New Generation 2.0A HDMI Supports Ultra Hd 3D TVs At 60 Frames Per Second, Audio Return Channel And Also Has Built In Ethernet Support. Perfect For Gaming, TVs, Home Theaters And Surround Sound System Devices. The Nylon Protection Layer Protects From Abrasion. The Braid Is Durable And Adds Protection For The Wires Inside The Cable. 

Backwardly Compatible With Older Hdmi Connections Such As V1.4, V1.3 And 1.2. 

Premium v2.0 high-performance HDMI to HDMI cable with full v2.0 specifications. Manufactured to ensure maximum transfer rates with absolutely no loss of data and designed to meet hi-speed connections for next-generation devices such as Blu-Ray, 3D HDTV, Virgin Media, Sky TV, Projectors, 24p True Cinema, XBOX 360, PS3, PS4, XBOX One and supports future devices with resolutions of 4k x 2k. 

*Features:*
ACENTIX® HDMI Supports 4K@60hz, (2160p), 4 times the clarity of 1080p/60 video resolution,10 bit Color, HDR10 and full 4:4:4 chroma. 
ACENTIX® Smooth transmission of extreme HD resolutions up to 4096 x 2160 @60hz ,Naturally lower resolutions are also supported. 
Up to 32 audio channels 
Simultaneous delivery of dual video streams to multiple users on the same screen 
Support for the wide angle theatrical 21:9 video 
Simultaneous delivery of multi-stream audio to multiple users (up to 4) 
NOTE:
Supports 4K@60Hz - Upto 10M sizes (Including 10M) 
Supports 4K@30Hz- Above 10M Sizes.

*
Specification:*
24k Gold-Plated Connectors 
28AWG Oxygen-free copper 
Compliance: HDCP, HDMI Authority, RoHS 
HDMI Version: v2.0 and 100% backwards compatible with HDMI v1.1, v1.2, v1.3 AND v1.4 ,1.4a 
Data Resolution: 4096 x 2160p Ultra HD / Dual Stream 1080p 3D 
18 Gbps bandwidth 
Audio return channel (ARC) 
3D over HDMI support 
HDMI ethernet channel 
Dual-stream 1080p 3D Support 
Dolby® TrueHD and DTS-HD lossless surround sound support 
Triple-layer superior shielding from EMI / RF with Zinc alloy shell
Suitable for wall installation.


The cable's construction features precise engineering with a die-cast metal headshell and 24k gold contacts. High-grade 28 AWG oxygen-free, shielded with a triple-layered aluminised Mylar foil for interference-free connections. 

With this cable, next-generation devices that support HDMI v2.0 will be able to transfer and receive picture reolutions of up 4096 x 2160p (Ultra HD) or dual streams of 1080p for 3D TV. HDMI v2.0 includes support for ethernet to allow for direct internet connectivity without the requirement for extra cables to your TV. 

















I then got the 'CSL' instead because you thought the acentix was too cheap and uncertified.
Remember these are carrying digital signals (0,1) from the PC transport to the LKS DAC (not analogue!).
The certification is not mandatory or compulsory. It is open for any company to join that is willing to pay the fee. It doesn't mean that those who choose not to join are rubbish.


----------



## Paul Staples

this is what you want (lol): http://www.analogueseduction.net/nordost-hdmi-cables/nordost-valhalla-2-4k-uhd-hdmi-cable.html
£2500!!


----------



## Whitigir (May 26, 2018)

Exactly because they carry digital with clock signals (I2S).  The clock signals can not be degraded

*I2s was not intended for use with Cables!
*
You can use whatever you want.  I have personally conducted experiments and witnessed the performances by myself.  I give out advises and it is up to an individual to take it or ignore it

Regarding the HDMI, yes, you need to pay for it, and *meets the standards* in order to produce qualified HDMI cables.  All cables who is not registered simply do not have their cables tested to the standards.  *Standards is for a reason, the same as Coax

Nordost* Cables u linked above, is the same build as Monoprice, 19x24Awg Silverplated Wires.  I will happily be paying for Monoprice all day long.  Again, Monoprice meets the standards and I personally cut it up to inspect


----------



## Paul Staples (May 26, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Exactly because they carry digital with clock signals (I2S).  The clock signals can not be degraded
> 
> *I2s was not intended for use with Cables!
> *
> ...



OK OK - calm down, it's all done in the best possible taste! - LOL! Thank you for your advice, much appreciated!

Time to stop mucking around with five quid cables! - I THINK I'VE FOUND IT NOW! I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN ALL ALONG, 'QED' HAS ALWAYS BEEN A PERSONAL FAVOURITE OF MINE, Not ridiculously cheap or expensive e.g. £5/£2500. Actually comes in at a respectable £65! Unfortunately, QED are not on the certified list, but their reputation and provenance go before them in this respect I feel? Everyone knows 'QED' and what they do with cables is beyond reproach.
https://www.futureshop.co.uk/qed-new-reference-hdmi-cable

...most of the reviews are pretty good too! (in this shop)

'QED' ~ World Renowned Quality!!


----------



## Whitigir (May 26, 2018)

Awaiting Pinkfaun !!!


----------



## natemact

Whitigir said:


> Awaiting Pinkfaun !!!


PINK FAUN woot woot!! The kings of I2S! Exciting!!! Should I assume you built this yourself? Pink Faun streamers are up there in price! I was so close to grabbing their I2S PCI-E card when I was running a PS Steller DAC. This is what you're waiting on, correct? These guys are doing I2S right by eliminating conversion to USB. The only other companies I know of implementing I2S properly in digital front end is Soundaware and Magna Hifi - not coincidentally out of the Netherlands also. Please fill me in if there are others out there. That's what I never understood from I2S converters (Singxer, Matrix etc)...the fact that they convert from USB.

I get that gear sounds best via their I2S input regardless of it was USB at some point in the chain but this convertion of USB to I2S really defeats the whole benefit of I2S to begin with...no conversion. I'd be hard pressed to believe a Singxer is able to output the same sonic quality as a digital front end that never became USB at any point which is why I think Pink Faun are smart lads!


----------



## Whitigir

natemact said:


> PINK FAUN woot woot!! The kings of I2S! Exciting!!! Should I assume you built this yourself? Pink Faun streamers are up there in price! I was so close to grabbing their I2S PCI-E card when I was running a PS Steller DAC. This is what you're waiting on, correct? These guys are doing I2S right by eliminating conversion to USB. The only other companies I know of implementing I2S properly in digital front end is Soundaware and Magna Hifi - not coincidentally out of the Netherlands also. Please fill me in if there are others out there. That's what I never understood from I2S converters (Singxer, Matrix etc)...the fact that they convert from USB.
> 
> I get that gear sounds best via their I2S input regardless of it was USB at some point in the chain but this convertion of USB to I2S really defeats the whole benefit of I2S to begin with...no conversion. I'd be hard pressed to believe a Singxer is able to output the same sonic quality as a digital front end that never became USB at any point which is why I think Pink Faun are smart lads!



That is the exact way I am seeing and thinking.  

That is exactly why I have built this PC, and yes....I built it 

In fact, I can not wait to hear Direct I2S


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> take a look at these audioquest hdmi cables:
> https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-diamond-hdmi-cable
> 
> ...silver 0.5% -to- pure silver options. £899.
> ...


It's always hard to compare unless you have both and listen to them. My last hdmi cable was exactly the qed model you looked at. It's definitely better than a generic one and in my case even better than my Audioquest Cinnamon with solid 1.25% silver conductor. You can compare that with what you are listening to now and pretty sure it's worth the extra money. I got a chance to get a secondhand Wireworld Starlight 5.2 recently (http://wireworldcable.co.uk/products/14.html) for only $50. Not sure if it'd because this Wireworld is only 0.3m cable (my others are 1m) or whatever, but this is actually on another level higher (in my humble opinion only of course).


----------



## xiamen

natemact said:


> PINK FAUN woot woot!! The kings of I2S! Exciting!!! Should I assume you built this yourself? Pink Faun streamers are up there in price! I was so close to grabbing their I2S PCI-E card when I was running a PS Steller DAC. This is what you're waiting on, correct? These guys are doing I2S right by eliminating conversion to USB. The only other companies I know of implementing I2S properly in digital front end is Soundaware and Magna Hifi - not coincidentally out of the Netherlands also. Please fill me in if there are others out there. That's what I never understood from I2S converters (Singxer, Matrix etc)...the fact that they convert from USB.
> 
> I get that gear sounds best via their I2S input regardless of it was USB at some point in the chain but this convertion of USB to I2S really defeats the whole benefit of I2S to begin with...no conversion. I'd be hard pressed to believe a Singxer is able to output the same sonic quality as a digital front end that never became USB at any point which is why I think Pink Faun are smart lads!


i2S vs USB is only part of the story though. I would bet USB with linear PSU input and/or OCXO clock is better than i2S with a lesser clock and/or fed power from PCIE. Interestingly, Sonore had discontinued their signature rendu with ethernet in/i2s out. They are saying they get better SQ from USB with the microrendu and ultrarendu with lpsu. May be they are doing this more because of commercial reason as i2S has a much smaller niche market. At the end of the day, whether you are converting with a ddc or i2s card, you are still converting. The algorithm you developed to do this is important too.


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> i2S vs USB is only part of the story though. I would bet USB with linear PSU input and/or OCXO clock is better than i2S with a lesser clock and/or fed power from PCIE. Interestingly, Sonore had discontinued their signature rendu with ethernet in/i2s out. They are saying they get better SQ from USB with the microrendu and ultrarendu with lpsu. May be they are doing this more because of commercial reason as i2S has a much smaller niche market. At the end of the day, whether you are converting with a ddc or i2s card, you are still converting. The algorithm you developed to do this is important too.



The only differences is that I2S has less conversions steps, and IMO, the less conversions, the better.  Pinkfaun Power is fed by External LPSU, the way I do it


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> It's always hard to compare unless you have both and listen to them. My last hdmi cable was exactly the qed model you looked at. It's definitely better than a generic one and in my case even better than my Audioquest Cinnamon with solid 1.25% silver conductor. You can compare that with what you are listening to now and pretty sure it's worth the extra money. I got a chance to get a secondhand Wireworld Starlight 5.2 recently (http://wireworldcable.co.uk/products/14.html) for only $50. Not sure if it'd because this Wireworld is only 0.3m cable (my others are 1m) or whatever, but this is actually on another level higher (in my humble opinion only of course).


thank you!


----------



## Paul Staples (May 26, 2018)

xiamen said:


> It's always hard to compare unless you have both and listen to them. My last hdmi cable was exactly the qed model you looked at. It's definitely better than a generic one and in my case even better than my Audioquest Cinnamon with solid 1.25% silver conductor. You can compare that with what you are listening to now and pretty sure it's worth the extra money. I got a chance to get a secondhand Wireworld Starlight 5.2 recently (http://wireworldcable.co.uk/products/14.html) for only $50. Not sure if it'd because this Wireworld is only 0.3m cable (my others are 1m) or whatever, but this is actually on another level higher (in my humble opinion only of course).



'QED' ~ World Renowned Quality!!   ...(0.6m) - "the shorter - the better!".


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> i2S vs USB is only part of the story though. I would bet USB with linear PSU input and/or OCXO clock is better than i2S with a lesser clock and/or fed power from PCIE. Interestingly, Sonore had discontinued their signature rendu with ethernet in/i2s out. They are saying they get better SQ from USB with the microrendu and ultrarendu with lpsu. May be they are doing this more because of commercial reason as i2S has a much smaller niche market. At the end of the day, whether you are converting with a ddc or i2s card, you are still converting. The algorithm you developed to do this is important too.



...what about pink faun i2s with OCXO?


----------



## natemact

xiamen said:


> i2S vs USB is only part of the story though. *I would bet USB with linear PSU input and/or OCXO clock is better than i2S with a lesser clock and/or fed power from PCIE*. Interestingly, Sonore had discontinued their signature rendu with ethernet in/i2s out. They are saying they get better SQ from USB with the microrendu and ultrarendu with lpsu. May be they are doing this more because of commercial reason as i2S has a much smaller niche market. At the end of the day, whether you are converting with a ddc or i2s card, you are still converting. The algorithm you developed to do this is important too.


Could be but power is a non-issue and clocks can be upgraded to OCXO with Pink Faun. BTW it would seem that the USB interface you're proposing would be much more expensive then the I2S interface. Regardless if which ones "better" it's best to compare similarly priced components - as we would if we were purchasing - or what's the point? Sure a $2K USB interface sounds better than a $500 I2S interface regardless of I2S possibly being the "better sounding" input. You see what I mean?

There is one universal truth here that can't be debated and that is that any DAC that has gone through the comparison USB/I2S that I know of sounded best through I2S. This was true for PS Audio, Holo Spring, Denafrips, Rockna, L.K.S, Audio-gd, Matrix, Gustard, should I go on lol? Now these comparisons were only made with the Singxer or Matrix Audio I2S interfaces, but none of these DACs preferred USB. Now that is not to say that a SoTM trifecta will sound "worse" than a PF I2S PCI-E but there's also a massive $$$ difference here. All things being equal I2S will sound "better" than USB.

Now with conversions, I was under the impression that the binary data being processed is in the I2S format just like in a cdp. Even if this wasn't the case, a DDC is still on more conversion than if outputting a I2S signal direct from your PC. I count one conversion to I2S (if it's needed) and two if converting first to USB and then to I2S. I'm fairly sure it's actually 2-0 : )


----------



## xiamen

natemact said:


> Could be but power is a non-issue and clocks can be upgraded to OCXO with Pink Faun. BTW it would seem that the USB interface you're proposing would be much more expensive then the I2S interface. Regardless if which ones "better" it's best to compare similarly priced components - as we would if we were purchasing - or what's the point? Sure a $2K USB interface sounds better than a $500 I2S interface regardless of I2S possibly being the "better sounding" input. You see what I mean?
> 
> There is one universal truth here that can't be debated and that is that any DAC that has gone through the comparison USB/I2S that I know of sounded best through I2S. This was true for PS Audio, Holo Spring, Denafrips, Rockna, L.K.S, Audio-gd, Matrix, Gustard, should I go on lol? Now these comparisons were only made with the Singxer or Matrix Audio I2S interfaces, but none of these DACs preferred USB. Now that is not to say that a SoTM trifecta will sound "worse" than a PF I2S PCI-E but there's also a massive $$$ difference here. All things being equal I2S will sound "better" than USB.
> 
> Now with conversions, I was under the impression that the binary data being processed is in the I2S format just like in a cdp. Even if this wasn't the case, a DDC is still on more conversion than if outputting a I2S signal direct from your PC. I count one conversion to I2S (if it's needed) and two if converting first to USB and then to I2S. I'm fairly sure it's actually 2-0 : )



I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion. I do feel i2s pcie is a good way to go. The main reason I did not go down that path is it's pcm only, and I still have a collection of sacd, and I like dsd upsampling. The other reason is going down that path, you have a choice of pink faun or pink faun. If you want to get a OCXO clock upgrade, you have to get it from them and it's 650 euro. Pink Faun also do USB pcie, same price as the i2s bridge. So their OCXO usb is 1000 euro, more than twice of other vendors such as Paul Pang. 

I do disagree with some of your arguments. Comparing dac's usb input to singxer i2s interface is not comparing usb to i2s. Just comparing these external i2s interfaces (ddc) with the internal ddc, in most cases Amanero. And there are many people some of those with years of experience on this forum  who believe the internal ddc is as good or better than an external one. I personally go down the singxer path. I don't think power is an non-issue. Doesn't matter what interfaces you are using, noise is a factor. i2s is prone to noise like anything else. And dirty power is a big factor in that. Although the Pink Faun i2s bridge I believe can take power from external lps.

I would argue 2 conversions is not definitely worse than one, although I usually subscribe to the theory of less is better. The singxer for example can provide galvanic isolation which is generally consider a good thing. Sure one more conversion means you have to regenerate a new data signal to feed the dac. But again balance/reclock/regen are not necessarily bad either. Or else companies such as UptoneAudio will not be developing all those Regen solutions. In my opinion, it comes down to the implementation.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Awaiting Pinkfaun !!!


VERY NICE BUILD MATE!


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> i2S vs USB is only part of the story though. I would bet USB with linear PSU input and/or OCXO clock is better than i2S with a lesser clock and/or fed power from PCIE. Interestingly, Sonore had discontinued their signature rendu with ethernet in/i2s out. They are saying they get better SQ from USB with the microrendu and ultrarendu with lpsu. May be they are doing this more because of commercial reason as i2S has a much smaller niche market. At the end of the day, whether you are converting with a ddc or i2s card, you are still converting. The algorithm you developed to do this is important too.


pink faun isn't power fed by PCI-e.


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> i2S vs USB is only part of the story though. I would bet USB with linear PSU input and/or OCXO clock is better than i2S with a lesser clock and/or fed power from PCIE. Interestingly, Sonore had discontinued their signature rendu with ethernet in/i2s out. They are saying they get better SQ from USB with the microrendu and ultrarendu with lpsu. May be they are doing this more because of commercial reason as i2S has a much smaller niche market. At the end of the day, whether you are converting with a ddc or i2s card, you are still converting. The algorithm you developed to do this is important too.


LKS USB does have linear PSU already.


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> I do feel i2s pcie is a good way to go. The main reason I did not go down that path is it's pcm only, and I still have a collection of sacd, and I like dsd upsampling.



..the thing is   ...DOES UPSAMPLING WORK? (if your source is 44/16)


----------



## Paul Staples (May 27, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Awaiting Pinkfaun !!!



So, the question is:

...are you getting the OCXO pink faun clock with your i2s? yes/no?
IF YES?    ....then....
...are you willing to have a minion help you with a blind fold test? i.e. the minion removes the OCXO clock without your knowledge! You then have to guess which is best purely on the sound you actually hear. Obviously you would have to repeat this test several times to get an accurate result. The placebo effect is thus entirely removed from the equation/valuation process. You would need to be completely honest though! (LOL)


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> ..the thing is   ...DOES UPSAMPLING WORK? (if your source is 44/16)


The question is does it work for you. Here is a forum with very different opinions (https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/dsd-vs-pcm-vs-mqa-group-listening-experiment). Personally, I feel dsd come out swinging at dsd512.


----------



## Whitigir (May 27, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> So, the question is:
> 
> ...are you getting the OCXO pink faun clock with your i2s? yes/no?
> IF YES?    ....then....
> ...are you willing to have a minion help you with a blind fold test? i.e. the minion removes the OCXO clock without your knowledge! You then have to guess which is best purely on the sound you actually hear. Obviously you would have to repeat this test several times to get an accurate result. The placebo effect is thus entirely removed from the equation/valuation process. You would need to be completely honest though! (LOL)




Yes,

No need, not interested in it.  Just as long as it is technically an improvements, I have no need to strain my ability to find out.  Hell, if I don’t believe what I hear, I would have been in a better shape than spending this much on headphones and audio equipments.

Honesty ? To whom ? Hell, I keep telling myself to save money and be indenials to what I hear and perceived as improvements (or faults in my music performances), I keep telling myself to stop seeking out for little things (imperfections and compromises here and there).  It turned out that I am fooling myself and not completely being honest to myself.....that is why I keep on going, and that is why I keep on spending.

Do you know the rest of my system yet ? I have gone pass (*being saved*) as a possibility....I have stopped fooling myself, and accept the fact that music to my ears and to my perfections is my desires, and that is why I am traveling down this path

The rest of my system

KG T2 Stax amplifier

Stax Sr-009 headphones

NOS tubes quad ECC88 and NOS quad EL-34

AudioGD R2R7 & LKS-004 at the moment

All upgraded cables around the systems

Now, I am welcoming an addition of the newest streamer (my Pinkfaun PC).  I call it that way because I built this computer just for PinkFaun i2s bridge.

Here is a shot at the Amp that I built

*I *_don’t need a blind test to hear the differences, when that day comes, when I can’t hear the differences, it would be a *blessing**_


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> The question is does it work for you. Here is a forum with very different opinions (https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/dsd-vs-pcm-vs-mqa-group-listening-experiment). Personally, I feel dsd come out swinging at dsd512.


THanx for the link!


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Yes,
> 
> No need, not interested in it.  Just as long as it is technically an improvements, I have no need to strain my ability to find out.  Hell, if I don’t believe what I hear, I would have been in a better shape than spending this much on headphones and audio equipments.
> 
> ...




Very Nice equipment! did you manufacture any of the components yourself?
In those photos, it looks like two completely different devices unless one image shows the 'upside' and the other image shows the 'underneath'?

I think we differ on the blind test issue somewhat. You are quite content to be shown technical improvements, whereas - for me, music is all about the listening and what I can hear, i.e. if I can't hear the improvement then there is no point in buying it in the first place! I try to do a blind test whenever a new item is introduced into the system (with the help of a minion); and if I can't detect an improvement the device (component) is returned (period!).
Now, you ask, "to whom?";  ...well that would be to all of us on here and reading this thread. So, if you have NO interest in a blind test for yourself, perhaps you would consider doing so for the benefit of other potential OCXO buyers! An altruistic jesture of goodwill to all? e.g. if you came back with: "I can't hear any difference", I would seriously have to question the OCXO purchase. So, do it for others, if not yourself.


----------



## Whitigir (May 28, 2018)

I built them ofcourse , you read up on it and see what it is

Anyways, I always hear the differences.  Sometimes I try not to look for it, and turned out that it just automatically realized by me.  Case in point with Amanero Brass Pins.

Now, I hear it, do you believe it ? I am also pass the *do it for others*.  I need no one to believe me.  All I know is that I wished that I cant tell the differences, but it is what it is, and until one day that I can not tell anymore, it will be a blessing

Ofcourse I would love money in my pocket , and I keep telling myself that music is just music, stop seeking for little things

Again, if I couldn’t tell the differences, iamagine howmuch I woulda have saved with an iPhone and stock earbuds.  Imagine that 

By the way, even $12,000 won’t buy you that KG T2 amp


----------



## Paul Staples (May 28, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> *I built them of course*, you read up on it and see what it is



are you: https://mjolnir-audio.com/products/

Mjölnir Audio?



Whitigir said:


> Now, I hear it, do you believe it? I am also past the "*do it for others" *SCENARIO.  I need no one to believe me.



That's perfectly fine! I would perform such a selfless act for others, as indeed I HAVE many times! But that is probably because I have a spiritual consciousness, were I can perform such tasks without thought of reward, detachment from the fruits of ones labour. But if you prefer not to offer a blind test, I have no problem with that what-so-ever.



Whitigir said:


> Of course, I would love money in my pocket, if I couldn’t tell the differences, I imagine how much I would have saved with an iPhone and stock earbuds. Imagine that!



I don’t think of money in the same way as you, i.e. saving, spending, earning etc. I see money as pure energy.



Whitigir said:


> By the way, even $12,000 won’t buy you that KG T2 amp



https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Spe...e-special-water-cooled-suite/32287454977.html

Special case for T2 electrostatic headphone amplifier of KG version and the special water-cooled suite (for STAX headphone): Price: US $2,400 That might just be the case only though? (not the actual amp it self).

So, what is your fate? Wil you end up with the "dCS vivaldi"?

Anyway, these amps range in price from $670 to $5500 https://mjolnir-audio.com/products/ NOT $12,000? What do you say?

If you claim to build these amps, then you must be: https://mjolnir-audio.com/products/ ??? ...I don't think these are self build kits?

So far, your silence speaks volumes!!!

I know what you mean though! (i.e. $12,000). My John Wood amp sells for up to $13,000 (£10,000). If you can find one (LOL). These are as rare as hens teeth, and more rare than gold dust! They are only custom built to order, and he will not ship them, YOU HAVE TO COLLECT, WHERE EVER YOU ARE IN THE WORLD! They only come on the second hand market when someone dies!!

Anyway I will contact: https://mjolnir-audio.com/products to see what they say about your claim (i.e. that you are the builder of these amps).


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> pink faun isn't power fed by PCI-e.


Here's a take from another vendor http://antipodesaudio.com/server-technology.html
and an interesting take here http://antipodesaudio.com/server-faq.html on what sounds best.


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> Here's a take from another vendor http://antipodesaudio.com/server-technology.html
> and an interesting take here http://antipodesaudio.com/server-faq.html on what sounds best.



thanx! - I'll look into it, much appreciated, very grateful.


----------



## Whitigir (May 28, 2018)

Point to me, which DAC takes USB direct 1 bit Native DSD please ? No conversion into Multibit or using i2s interface in the chain.


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Point to me, which DAC takes USB direct 1 bit Native DSD please ? No conversion into Multibit or using i2s interface in the chain.


I don't know any. The question I have is can an i2s interface pass native dsd. This 6moons article http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/ami2/amanero.pdf seems to suggest .........


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> I don't know any. The question I have is can an i2s interface pass native dsd. This 6moons article http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/ami2/amanero.pdf seems to suggest .........


Nope! I2S is MultiBit, and always will be.  Multibit is not DSD Native, it can be DOP.  Then again, the manufacturers can display whatever on their device anyways


----------



## bibo01

Whitigir said:


> Point to me, which DAC takes USB direct 1 bit Native DSD please ? No conversion into Multibit or using i2s interface in the chain.


T&A DAC 8 DSD


----------



## Paul Staples

Hi,
Whitigir built that T2DIY he posted pics of but that was a DIY project we did back in 2009/2010 and anybody is free to build them for their own use. 
Whitigir is not affiliated with me in any way but I’ve seen him around the forums so I know of him.  I alone build Mjölnir Audio amps though. 
Cheers,
Birgir
https://mjolnir-audio.com


----------



## Whitigir (May 29, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> Hi,
> Whitigir built that T2DIY he posted pics of but that was a DIY project we did back in 2009/2010 and anybody is free to build them for their own use.
> Whitigir is not affiliated with me in any way but I’ve seen him around the forums so I know of him.  I alone build Mjölnir Audio amps though.
> Cheers,
> ...



I am not affiliated with Mjolnir audio, and I hold him in high respect.  Yes, without Stax Mafia, there is not going to be such thing as improved T2 amplifier . There is no such thing as DIY kit, you know your stuff, and you pull it together.  I am also not a builder for Hire or commissioned.  I build what I need, and that is that

Anyways, I got Pinkfaun here ! Today !  Temporarily running off ATX line (alone, not connected to anything else).  Awaiting cables for 5V input in a couple days


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I am not affiliated with Mjolnir audio, and I hold him in high respect.  Yes, without Stax Mafia, there is not going to be such thing as improved T2 amplifier . There is no such thing as DIY kit, you know your stuff, and you pull it together.  I am also not a builder for Hire or commissioned.  I build what I need, and that is that
> 
> Anyways, I got Pinkfaun here ! Today !  Temporarily running off ATX line (alone, not connected to anything else).  Awaiting cables for 5V input in a couple days



Oh well, at least the https://mjolnir-audio.com issue is cleared up now. i.e. it was a DIY build and a one off. The T2 Looks excellent inside B.T.W.
GLad to see that you now have the i2s/OCXO combo in situ. what does it sound like? dying to know!!


----------



## Whitigir (May 29, 2018)

I don’t even know how to make it to sing with LKS-004...I ordered it for AudioGD R2R-7. (Will try to figure out).  Thank you for the kind words.  I build things to the ways I perceived as (audio performances), it has all Silver wirings .  The reason why I said “even $12,000 can’t buy this T2”. That is because it is 1 of a kind  .  You should be able to find a used one around $10,000 without NOS tubes, if you could find one

It sounds “hearing is believing” !


----------



## littlexx26

Someone in a Hong Kong forum said Rockna Wavedream is much better than 004 (he compared them in the seller shop). anyone heard this rockna?


----------



## Whitigir (May 29, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> Someone in a Hong Kong forum said Rockna Wavedream is much better than 004 (he compared them in the seller shop). anyone heard this rockna?


Rockna is a $13,000 DAC my friend, or their newest is $20,000

If you want a Chinese version of the $13,000 with different tweaks and designs, it is called AudioGD R2R7, which I am using .  But beware, that it will mercilessly reveal your Negativities in your transports/source.....it made me build this expensive Pinkfaun PC....


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Rockna is a $13,000 DAC my friend, or their newest is $20,000
> 
> If you want a Chinese version of the $13,000 with different tweaks and designs, it is called AudioGD R2R7, which I am using .  But beware, that it will mercilessly reveal your Negativities in your transports/source.....it made me build this expensive Pinkfaun PC....


how much is the AudioGD R2R7?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> how much is the AudioGD R2R7?


About $2,700 shipped to USA


----------



## Paul Staples (May 30, 2018)

Got the cable:

















...use your browser ZOOM to read


----------



## aggielaw

Looking forward to your impressions.  I've come to the conclusion over my years in the hobby that QED and XLO are perhaps the two most underrated cable manufacturers on the planet.


----------



## Whitigir

I am using Pangea HDMI, and it sound pretty good so far


----------



## Paul Staples

aggielaw said:


> Looking forward to your impressions.  I've come to the conclusion over my years in the hobby that QED and XLO are perhaps the two most underrated cable manufacturers on the planet.


those XLO's look really interesting!


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I am using Pangea HDMI, and it sound pretty good so far



...oh yes! ~ silver again!  I don't know how you keep finding all these silver cables, but they appear at face value to be exceptionally good quality; some of the prices are a little high though.


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> ...oh yes! ~ silver again!  I don't know how you keep finding all these silver cables, but they appear at face value to be exceptionally good quality; some of the prices are a little high though.



Nah, it is high silver content Silver plated copper  different than Pure Silver.  But that is good enough for a proper HDMI build


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Nah, it is high silver content Silver plated copper  different than Pure Silver.  But that is good enough for a proper HDMI build



I think perhaps we are quite similar after all? I am beginning to build a picture of a person that customizes a citroen saxo/renault clio to the extent that it beats porsches and ferrari's "HANDS DOWN" off the line! If that is the case we are quite similar? i.e. you have the LKS 004 which can match the dCS vivaldi in performance, in your opinion? I AM THE SAME! Support the underdog? Trying to achieve the ultimate on a low budget? I have bought everything on the cheap! e.g. used/B Grade/ex-demo/shop soiled etc. I think this is you?


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Awaiting Pinkfaun !!!



By comparison, my case is quite UNTIDY (LOL)! The problem is: the supplied cables are either far too long or far too short (which requires "off the peg" extensions), this leads to clutter and NOISE, what a pity we can't get 'correct length' custom made cables! So, you have to bunch them up with cable ties and hope for the best.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I am not affiliated with Mjolnir audio, and I hold him in high respect.  Yes, without Stax Mafia, there is not going to be such thing as improved T2 amplifier . There is no such thing as DIY kit, you know your stuff, and you pull it together.  I am also not a builder for Hire or commissioned.  I build what I need, and that is that
> 
> Anyways, I got Pinkfaun here ! Today !  Temporarily running off ATX line (alone, not connected to anything else).  Awaiting cables for 5V input in a couple days



...are you going to try the pink faun 'with and WITHOUT' the OCXO clock?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> ...are you going to try the pink faun 'with and WITHOUT' the OCXO clock?


Unfortunately, nope.  I have no desire in doing that.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Unfortunately, nope.  I have no desire in doing that.


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


>



I would say this to be fair.  I think technically for your situation, I would upgrade to a LPS instead.  The OCXO upgrade is about the price of an HDPlex400W lol!

The Upgraded clock is a Module, you can get to it at anytime in the future


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I would say this to be fair.  I think technically for your situation, I would upgrade to a LPS instead.  The OCXO upgrade is about the price of an HDPlex400W lol!
> 
> The Upgraded clock is a Module, you can get to it at anytime in the future


I shall consider your suggestion, thank you.


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> I shall consider your suggestion, thank you.


Have a read of this https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/computer-audio-misconceptions while you are thinking. I would say the HD-Plex can supply linear power not just to your PC but also to your Pink Faun card. In my opinion, that will improve the performance of your i2s PCIE as much as the OCXO upgrade.


----------



## Paul Staples

aggielaw said:


> Looking forward to your impressions.  I've come to the conclusion over my years in the hobby that QED and XLO are perhaps the two most underrated cable manufacturers on the planet.



Well, the QED delivers in spades!
I'm not going to mess about with the usual: "it's a black/darker backgroung", "wider more accurate stereo image", "less sibilance"   ...etc. etc. "NO!" ~ In my none mathermatical/scientific version of electronics and Hi-Fi I will simply say there appears to be more cleaner information getting through that cable (music?) and less noise, interference & distortion. 

The cheap CSL was the worst and the slightly more expensive (£1) Acentix was marginally 'better'. But, the winner is the QED which was a lot more expensive, but outstanding in performance compared to the other two! A word of caution though, in a world of 'diminishing returns' (Hi-Fi), I don't believe that the same level of improvement can be gained by "upgrading" from a £60 cable to a £10,000 cable and the difference would probably be barely perceptible. My tests were done blindfolded with a helper, so I have no way of knowing which cable I was scoring at the time of each individual test and the proof was very much in the hearing!


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> Have a read of this https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/computer-audio-misconceptions while you are thinking. I would say the HD-Plex can supply linear power not just to your PC but also to your Pink Faun card. In my opinion, that will improve the performance of your i2s PCIE as much as the OCXO upgrade.



much appreciated ~ many thanks! Yes I will think and read!


----------



## Paul Staples (Jun 3, 2018)

disaster with my i2s card!!!!!!!

this capacitor broke off and I don't know what to order!

*Würth Elektronik WE 221 016 ASLL-D35. diameter approx. 6mm, length approx. 7-8mm.*

thanx in advance!


----------



## TPSRA

mb3 said:


> Not too sure - some report that i2s is innately better. I haven't got a singxer. I'm mostly using USB from pc to wyrd with good results. But also have no probs with optical and coax.
> 
> From my experience the file type is more important - the higher the file sampling frequency, the greater the rate of hearing static / white noise, with most dsd256 files being unplayable except at dpll > 8.
> 
> I found that pcm files played back at dpll set to 1, sounded better than native dsd files with high dpll.


Kind of sad that dsd can't be play at dpll=1, 
using HQPlayer upsampling to DSD, dpll=1(the few audible seconds) is so much more transparent than dpll>8 and better than pcm playback,
wonder if there's potential solution to this, software and hardware wise?


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 4, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> disaster with my i2s card!!!!!!!
> 
> this capacitor broke off and I don't know what to order!
> 
> ...



Instability of the powersupply is usually the causes.  That is very unfortunate, let me know what you found out
http://katalog.we-online.de/en/pbs/WCAP-PSHP?sid=0582fef8c1


----------



## Paul Staples (Jun 4, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Instability of the powersupply is usually the causes.  That is very unfortunate, let me know what you found out
> http://katalog.we-online.de/en/pbs/WCAP-PSHP?sid=0582fef8c1



its the cap directly behind the molex power socket. It  was already bent over and lose when I received it, secondhand from america. Pretty insecure in a jiffy bag! I accidentally caught it with my finger or thumb when pushing the molex plug firmly into the socket and it didn't take very much for it to fall completely off the card/board.


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> its the cap directly behind the molex power socket. It  was already bent over and lose when I received it, secondhand from america. Pretty insecure in a jiffy bag! I accidentally caught it with my finger or thumb when pushing the molex plug firmly into the socket and it didn't take very much for it to fall completely off the card/board.




So it was very lose, and that you could push it around ? Why didn’t you solder it back on ?


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## Paul Staples (Jun 4, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> So it was very lose, and that you could push it around ? Why didn’t you solder it back on ?


I thought the prongs might break and I was correct because now there are no prongs/legs protruding from the underneath at all!

Wurth & Mouser (UK) don't know what part it is by the number on the top! Sent an email to pink faun.


----------



## xiamen

TPSRA said:


> Kind of sad that dsd can't be play at dpll=1,
> using HQPlayer upsampling to DSD, dpll=1(the few audible seconds) is so much more transparent than dpll>8 and better than pcm playback,
> wonder if there's potential solution to this, software and hardware wise?


Well, you can upsample the pcm to dsf files off-line. Quite a few software can do this, foobar, jriver can convert pcm to dsf files up to 256. Certainly on jriver, I can play dsf 256 using native asio at dpll 1. Just means you need more disk storage. But they are cheap and you don't have to convert your entire library. May be just your favourite albums.


----------



## Lennym

xiamen said:


> Well, you can upsample the pcm to dsf files off-line. Quite a few software can do this, foobar, jriver can convert pcm to dsf files up to 256. Certainly on jriver, I can play dsf 256 using native asio at dpll 1. Just means you need more disk storage. But they are cheap and you don't have to convert your entire library. May be just your favourite albums.


xiamen, Using a laptop, JRiver and an Intona I can play pcm at DPLL 1, but dsf needs to be at at least 6.   This is also what Jinbo has said.  I would like to know what you use to be able to play dsf at DPLL 1.  Perhaps you've already told us so please refer me back to an old post if you wish.  Thanks.


----------



## Whitigir

Lennym said:


> xiamen, Using a laptop, JRiver and an Intona I can play pcm at DPLL 1, but dsf needs to be at at least 6.   This is also what Jinbo has said.  I would like to know what you use to be able to play dsf at DPLL 1.  Perhaps you've already told us so please refer me back to an old post if you wish.  Thanks.



Basically, u need a good transport that can convert digital into USB interface for music, such as singxer su1 or a computer built for the purpose


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## Paul Staples (Jun 5, 2018)

Hello
The OCXO clock is an absolute upgrade to the I2s bridge. Not only measures the OCXO better, we would never sell such an upgrade if there’s no upgrade in sound quality. The OCXO clock is not only more accurate, but way more important is the phase noise, here the clock makes a real difference.
Attached a pdf with some more in-depth information why the phase noise is so important.

Best regards / Met vriendelijke groet

Jord Groen, Triple M audio shop
*Van:* ****.karoo.co.uk
*Verzonden:* zondag 3 juni 2018 19:41
*Aan:* Jord Groen
*Onderwerp:* OCXO clock?

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtvZwp0rE3Aa3GbBhPbBFhFgqEN4
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtvZwp0rE3Aa3GUh4ZqgwdYP5hXV


----------



## TPSRA (Jun 5, 2018)

xiamen said:


> Well, you can upsample the pcm to dsf files off-line. Quite a few software can do this, foobar, jriver can convert pcm to dsf files up to 256. Certainly on jriver, I can play dsf 256 using native asio at dpll 1. Just means you need more disk storage. But they are cheap and you don't have to convert your entire library. May be just your favourite albums.


For me it's not upsampling's problem, with native DSD file I still have to set dpll to 7. Please let me know how you achieve it.



Whitigir said:


> Basically, u need a good transport that can convert digital into USB interface for music, such as singxer su1 or a computer built for the purpose


I'm using Hydra Z via I2s to DA004, dpll have to be set at 6 or 7 for stable connection. Same for coxial and USB directly into to DA004.
Are you saying that su1 can let DA004 play DSD at low dpll?


----------



## Whitigir

TPSRA said:


> For me it's not upsampling's problem, with native DSD file I still have to set dpll to 7. Please let me know how you achieve it.
> 
> 
> I'm using Hydra Z via I2s to DA004, dpll have to be set at 6 or 7 for stable connection. Same for coxial and USB directly into to DA004.
> Are you saying that su1 can let DA004 play DSD at low dpll?



With a good PC built, I can use DPLL01 with USB and PCM, but the lks004 needs warmed up first, about 15 minutes.

With DX200 and a good Coax Cables, I can run Coax at 001

Not sure if Singxer will allow you to do DSD at 001, but just theoretically, better processed signals from the usb output =  more precision getting into the input of LkS004.  So, theoretically speaking, I can use a sophisticated USB bridge on my PC, and surely to get DSD Native to playback at 001 or about.  However, I am not interested in doing that.  Right now, I am running Pinkfaun I2S with OCXO build, which is already expensive as it is


----------



## gruvytune

Jriver users:
Are you using asio or amanero output?
Jinbo says use amanero driver. I see others are using asio.


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> Hello
> The OCXO clock is an absolute upgrade to the I2s bridge. Not only measures the OCXO better, we would never sell such an upgrade if there’s no upgrade in sound quality. The OCXO clock is not only more accurate, but way more important is the phase noise, here the clock makes a real difference.
> Attached a pdf with some more in-depth information why the phase noise is so important.
> 
> ...



Clock is not only important on about with phase noises, there are more.  But another important aspect of this is the *stability and noises of the powersupply going into the clock*.  You can buy a clock for cheap, and if you don’t have a good low noises regulating in design, your clock will mostly goes to waste.  Yes, with external LPS, it will help to further enhance the Pinkfaun, but the Pinkfaun itself need to also be with a good design.  It explains why the Upgraded clock is very expensive


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 5, 2018)

gruvytune said:


> Jriver users:
> Are you using asio or amanero output?
> Jinbo says use amanero driver. I see others are using asio.



I used both, and they are both similar, regardless.  However, I do think Asio4All sounds better in layering and resolutions, but that is just me.  I tried both Wasapi/Asio On Pinkfaun , and then Amanero/Asio On Amanero.  The same impressions with Asio a bit more positive


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Clock is not only important on about with phase noises, there are more.  But another important aspect of this is the *stability and noises of the powersupply going into the clock*.  You can buy a clock for cheap, and if you don’t have a good low noises regulating in design, your clock will mostly goes to waste.  Yes, with external LPS, it will help to further enhance the Pinkfaun, but the Pinkfaun itself need to also be with a good design.  It explains why the Upgraded clock is very expensive



yes, I understand that a pure/clean power supply is essential as well (LOL)! I think my new seasonic will do for a while anyway. Interesting what he says about the phase in the PDF doc?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> yes, I understand that a pure/clean power supply is essential as well (LOL)! I think my new seasonic will do for a while anyway. Interesting what he says about the phase in the PDF doc?



I always know, so I wanted the Upgraded clock


----------



## Paul Staples

here we see the board location where the cap has broken off. It is clear, that it is indeed 16v, and one the the legs of the cap is still attached to the pad. There's a hole that looks like a 'through-hole' for soldering, but it's a bit big?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> here we see the board location where the cap has broken off. It is clear, that it is indeed 16v, and one the the legs of the cap is still attached to the pad. There's a hole that looks like a 'through-hole' for soldering, but it's a bit big?



Doesn’t matter if it is big...lol.  Yes, the cap has 016 to indicate 16V ? 221 is probably mF


----------



## xiamen

Lennym said:


> xiamen, Using a laptop, JRiver and an Intona I can play pcm at DPLL 1, but dsf needs to be at at least 6.   This is also what Jinbo has said.  I would like to know what you use to be able to play dsf at DPLL 1.  Perhaps you've already told us so please refer me back to an old post if you wish.  Thanks.


I put my build down on post #733 (Whitigir has a similar setup to me). BTW, I had only listened to dsf 256 for a few minutes in dpll 1 as it's not my usual listening setup (more like real time upsampled to dsd512 at dpll 9). It sounded fine to me, but I will double check when I have some time. The only other thing I didn't mention in post 733 is I use the WD Black M.2 ssd for os and applications. This actually runs 3 times faster than usual SSDs. The music library is in an HGST Helium 8TB drive with an external usb 3.1 enclosure connected to the 3.1 USB port on the PC. The enclosure has it's own DC 12 V supply which I fed also from the HD-Plex.   Just to repeat again, I am NOT playing SACD iso natively in DPLL 1. What I did was use jriver to convert PCM files to dsf files at 4xdsd. Then play dsf file in jriver with no upsampling at dpll1 using the Singxer driver.


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> I used both, and they are both similar, regardless.  However, I do think Asio4All sounds better in layering and resolutions, but that is just me.  I tried both Wasapi/Asio On Pinkfaun , and then Amanero/Asio On Amanero.  The same impressions with Asio a bit more positive



Check this forum on Amanero driver "problems" with dsd https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd/issues/12. Apparently, they release a new version only a day ago - 2004be. You may want to check that out. I moved away from the Amanero myself sometime ago.


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> Check this forum on Amanero driver "problems" with dsd https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd/issues/12. Apparently, they release a new version only a day ago - 2004be. You may want to check that out. I moved away from the Amanero myself sometime ago.


I see that u have been using Singxer for a while, but how did u move away from Amanero since lks004 uses Amanero ?


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> I see that u have been using Singxer for a while, but how did u move away from Amanero since lks004 uses Amanero ?


Same way you do. You use Pink Faun to i2s input on 004 which bypass Amanero. In my case, I output via usb to Singxer input  which then output via i2s to 004.


----------



## Paul Staples (Jun 6, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Doesn’t matter if it is big...lol.  Yes, the cap has 016 to indicate 16V ? 221 is probably mF



(Uf) 22 x 1 = 220?
Pink faun are sending me a replacement part B.T.W.!


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Awaiting Pinkfaun !!!



*Don't faster, multi-core, more advanced CPUs improve performances?*
The faster the CPU, the more power it consumes, the more noise in the system, and the more potential bit errors. Having any more CPU speed than is required to run the processes a music server is running degrades performance.

Most audiophile player software uses only one core in a CPU. Having multiple cores in the CPU that are unused also causes additional noise and degrades performance. So a simple high-efficiency dual-core CPU is often your best alternative.

And having an "i7" or some other more advanced type of CPU is of no advantage to the audiophile. Note that the "i" in i7 refers to an "instruction set" that is not used by any audiophile player software. The only advantage of these more advanced CPUs in a music server would be having more cache. Using a dual-core high-efficiency CPU with 3MB of cache is more than enough for most audiophile player software.

The only exception to this would be some advanced player software that takes advantage of higher speed CPUs and multiple cores, such as HQ Player. Software such as HQ Player can be put into insanely high upsampling modes for both PCM and DSD. Though there are some DACs that are optimized for this insanely dense data stream, most are not. And when audiophiles state "it sounds better with more upsampling" they are in fact only truly stating that their insanely high-performance CPU music server sounds better with additional upsampling. The fact is that they are adding additional noise with their super fast CPU and then removing some of that noise using error correction algorithms. Does that make any sense?

The higher the efficiency of the CPU the lower the noise and the more liquid, harmonic, and musical the server sounds. Also, a simple motherboard that consumes minimal power, such as one with only VGA video, low-res HDMI video, and/or no 7.1 channel audio, will have lower noise and better performance. This is why Mojo Audio uses a 6w stripped down industrial motherboard in our award-winning Deja Vu music server. Error prevention is always better than error correction.

https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/computer-audio-misconceptions


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 6, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> *Don't faster, multi-core, more advanced CPUs improve performances?*
> The faster the CPU, the more power it consumes, the more noise in the system, and the more potential bit errors. Having any more CPU speed than is required to run the processes a music server is running degrades performance.
> 
> Most audiophile player software uses only one core in a CPU. Having multiple cores in the CPU that are unused also causes additional noise and degrades performance. So a simple high-efficiency dual-core CPU is often your best alternative.
> ...



Nope, that is a fault.

1/ Motherboard has voltage regulators in different phases and so on.  So they affect the noises, and performances.  The more expensive and advanced a motherboard, the less Jitter is happening locally (the effects where CPU would mini- or micro-freeze or stall for a bit),  and it is all caused by the stability of the motherboard and how the whole system is in control.  Simply put, the more advances, the better and smoother the processing, and Data here is just Data (General Data).  But still, micro-stall would make you pull out your brains, then think about howmuch the system have to work to overcome that

2/ More advanced motherboard also has better shielding, emi/RFI filtering and so on, which also can be concluded the same as #1, more advances is better

3/ CPU, the faster it can process, the less it stall, and the more it can resist Jitters (correct timing) when it Digitally processing the Digital sound signals.  The CPU and the computer can process it the fastest, even faster than FPGA when you are using NVME instead of typical SATA.  That is because SATA has more processing/converting  steps than NvMe.  Data here is processed Data for Digital Music, which involves an oscillator and so on...it has to eliminate Jitters, but do not add in Jitters.

4/ Much importantly will be CPU and RAM, as Music are loaded into RAM, and the CPU reach into it to process.  Therefore, RAM will affect the sound much more than anything else.  Then again, CPU speed can be debated both ways.  Faster =  better processing performances, or Slower = less noises to increase audio performances.  I am on the side of faster for better processing, because every mini-micro-stalls will affect and or causes Jitters which will *actually degrade the sound more than noises*.  Why do I say this ? Because noises can be suppressed and filter away by using high-end Motherboard and or Receiving ends of Soundcard/bridges/interface being designed.  But there is no cure for *slower speed! *Therefore, the faster processing speed is the better.

5/. There is no such things as slower system = more liquid and harmonic sounds.  Don’t just believe anything on the internet and Bs claims, experience it yourself, build different PC, and find your own answer, together with some technical background for better understanding of performances.  However, I can tell you right now, that slower speed system will cause many “unresponsive tasks”...which it the *inability to process*....noises ? Sound degradation ? Doesn’t seem like a concern to me

Remember, everything has it pros and cons.  You aim toward the path that you deem most gains and less compromises in your own personal beliefs or personal preferences.

I am not interested in throwing out all experiences and facts toward to benefit others, or mindless and clueless debates, and so I will stop here.  Whatever you build, I am sure it will be your own journey and experiences.


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> *Don't faster, multi-core, more advanced CPUs improve performances?*
> The faster the CPU, the more power it consumes, the more noise in the system, and the more potential bit errors. Having any more CPU speed than is required to run the processes a music server is running degrades performance.
> 
> Most audiophile player software uses only one core in a CPU. Having multiple cores in the CPU that are unused also causes additional noise and degrades performance. So a simple high-efficiency dual-core CPU is often your best alternative.
> ...


Well they are advertising their  Deja Vu music server at $4555. In it is a "Intel quad-core processor with turbo boost up to 2.6 GHz". They don't like "i", so you probably get a Pentium. They aren't even using a fanless case. I think I can build that for much less. In any case, higher performance cpu doesn't necessarily use a lot more power. The cpu I pick is the i7 8700 non-K which has a low 65W rating.  And giving I'm using a fanless case that eliminate the main source of CPU noise which are the fans.


----------



## Main Source

I recently upgraded my system and added a Marantz 2 channel amp, mm7025,  , the LKS having its own volume control sounds WAAYY  better when I run XLR's straight to the amp, bypassing my DENON x4200 altogether  and having my 2 subwoofers plugged into the unbalanced outputs of the DAC. The sound coming out of my B&W 705 S2'S is amazing. Does anyone else here use the LKS as a pre amp?, if so what crossover do you recommend  so I dont run my speakers full range? Thank you


----------



## xiamen

xiamen said:


> I put my build down on post #733 (Whitigir has a similar setup to me). BTW, I had only listened to dsf 256 for a few minutes in dpll 1 as it's not my usual listening setup (more like real time upsampled to dsd512 at dpll 9). It sounded fine to me, but I will double check when I have some time. The only other thing I didn't mention in post 733 is I use the WD Black M.2 ssd for os and applications. This actually runs 3 times faster than usual SSDs. The music library is in an HGST Helium 8TB drive with an external usb 3.1 enclosure connected to the 3.1 USB port on the PC. The enclosure has it's own DC 12 V supply which I fed also from the HD-Plex.   Just to repeat again, I am NOT playing SACD iso natively in DPLL 1. What I did was use jriver to convert PCM files to dsf files at 4xdsd. Then play dsf file in jriver with no upsampling at dpll1 using the Singxer driver.


Me bad. Made a mistake in the setup for the test. I had dsd bitstream turned off when I was playing the dsf files. According to https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD, by default (with bitstream turned off), DSD sources will be converted to PCM for playback and handled by the Media Center audio engine like any other file type. The DSD to PCM conversion process converts from 1-bit DSD to 64-bit PCM at 1/8th of the DSD sample rate. The total amount of data from this conversion grows by 8x, so the process is effectively lossless / perfect. Once you have PCM, it will be 64bit @ 352.8 kHz for DSD, and 64bit @ 705.6 kHz for 2×DSD.
So effectively, I was playing the dsf file as 64bit @ 352.8 kHz and dpll 1, not as native dsd. Still it sounded pretty good (and the process is supposedly bit perfect).


----------



## rettib2001

Main Source said:


> I recently upgraded my system and added a Marantz 2 channel amp, mm7025,  , the LKS having its own volume control sounds WAAYY  better when I run XLR's straight to the amp, bypassing my DENON x4200 altogether  and having my 2 subwoofers plugged into the unbalanced outputs of the DAC. The sound coming out of my B&W 705 S2'S is amazing. Does anyone else here use the LKS as a pre amp?, if so what crossover do you recommend  so I dont run my speakers full range? Thank you



I'm using it as a pre-amp having concluded that it sounds better than going through my 'pretty good' passive preamp.

I am still however eager to hear if anybody has found a preamp solution that sounds better than the lks acting as adigital volume control as I can't shake the largely accepted theory that any digital control of volume effects the sound quality.


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 7, 2018)

How does digital controlled volume affect the sound quality ? The amplitude of the converted analog is upon the ES9038Pro alone, and the volume control is right at this process of howmuch power is being put in for the final process.  It doesn’t change the outcome of the sound performances as it was engineered this way.

Yes, you may be using it at the best power output that 004 has, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that it sounds any better.  It just consumes more power in doing that.

Sometime I feel like giving freedom of choices too much to the people and they will believe in all kind of theories.  Does it make you feel better if there was no volume control digitally ? I am sure, not me.

Have you ever thought about the facts that there are more that can affect the sound of the analog signals if you are OCD about digital volumes control ? Let me spell it out

1/ digital volume control was engineered so that every parameters stay the same, and measured by engineering, and qualify to come into productions.

2/ is any of your Interconnect engineered, passed the test to keep other parameters unchanging ? If yes, go to #3

3/ is your amplifier engineered, passed the test to *only amplifying the signals from es9038Pro at 100%* without colorations and degradations ? If Yes, go to #4

4/ Are you sure that LKs004 as the manufacturers implemented what is best for es9038Pro on the analog out ? you can hear the differences ?

5/ can you even tell the differences between digital filters ?

In my own experiences, I can tell you this #1 is fact , #2 is not (not even those expensive IC), #3 is not, there is no such thing as perfect amplifications, #4 is what matter (can you tell ?), #5 I can barely hear the differences and I cannot blind test them that is how hard it is

So, let’s just discarded them all, and answer their question.  Try putting lks004 at max volume and your amp at lower volume VS your amp at max volume and LKS at lower volume.  I can hear that my Amp sound so much better when the amp is at max, and the lks is at controlled volume.  However, If you hear the opposite ? Then let me tell you what is best

What is best is that you max out LKS004 at max volumes to Bypass the digital attenuations.  Then you find a way to have your Amplifier to stay fixed and bypass any type of volume attenuations (0 volume control on amp) at Just right listening comfort level.  I am sure you will hear much more improvements with the ability to hear crazy things.  But then, are you sure that different albums you have on different tracks are all recorded at the same amplitude of loudness ?

I hope I already make it clear and help you to stay on track.  What matter is that you enjoy what you hear, and believe in what you are hearing.  If you don’t hear the differences, don’t torture yourself and go insane by conspiracy and crazy theories.  This hobby means *nothing when you have 0 faith in your hearings ability
*
In the end, if you want to buy another preamplifier ? Do it, and enjoy yourself, just don’t throw out such ridiculous ideas about different theories


----------



## Lennym

xiamen said:


> Me bad. Made a mistake in the setup for the test. I had dsd bitstream turned off when I was playing the dsf files. According to https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD, by default (with bitstream turned off), DSD sources will be converted to PCM for playback and handled by the Media Center audio engine like any other file type. The DSD to PCM conversion process converts from 1-bit DSD to 64-bit PCM at 1/8th of the DSD sample rate. The total amount of data from this conversion grows by 8x, so the process is effectively lossless / perfect. Once you have PCM, it will be 64bit @ 352.8 kHz for DSD, and 64bit @ 705.6 kHz for 2×DSD.
> So effectively, I was playing the dsf file as 64bit @ 352.8 kHz and dpll 1, not as native dsd. Still it sounded pretty good (and the process is supposedly bit perfect).


So you have resolved the mystery.  Thanks.  Yes, I am familiar with that output.  That's how I play my  dsf files on my computer using Audioquest Dragonfly and computer speakers.  IIRC when I did not know what was really going on, JRiver just reset the audio options on its own to convert the files.  As was said, JRiver has a long learning curve (and pretty poor instructional materials) but it does some things really well.


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> Well they are advertising their  Deja Vu music server at $4555. In it is a "Intel quad-core processor with turbo boost up to 2.6 GHz". They aren't even using a fanless case. higher performance cpu doesn't necessarily use a lot more power. The cpu I pick is the i7 8700 non-K which has a low 65W rating.  And giving I'm using a fanless case that eliminate the main source of CPU noise which are the fans makes all the difference.


whereas my older processor: Intel® Core™ i7-6700K 6700K - 4GHz Quad-Core 6th Gen. Socket 1151, generates 91W !!   ...so it looks like they have overcome the heat problem to some extent with the newer and faster CPU's. I agree with your statement. Do you think 'with all respect', that Pink Faun are gulity of a bit of hypocrisy?


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 7, 2018)

[QUOTE="Do you think 'with all respect', that Pink Faun are gulity of a bit of hypocrisy?[/QUOTE]

What ? I don’t get what your question is

Also “K” line is different than Non-K.  I7-8700 is different than I7-8700*K*.  I recommend you to read more into the differences


----------



## Paul Staples

Paul Staples said:


> "Do you think 'with all respect', that Pink Faun are gulity of a bit of hypocrisy?"





Whitigir said:


> What ? I don’t get what your question is



“The faster the CPU, the more power it consumes, the more noise in the system, and the more potential bit errors. Having any more CPU speed than is required to run the processes a music server is running degrades performance. Most audiophile player software uses only one core in a CPU. Having multiple cores in the CPU that are unused also causes additional noise and degrades performance. So a simple high-efficiency dual-core CPU is often your best alternative. And having an "i7" or some other more advanced type of CPU is of no advantage to the audiophile. Note that the "i" in i7 refers to an "instruction set" that is not used by any audiophile player software. Using a dual-core high-efficiency CPU with 3MB of cache is more than enough for most audiophile player software. The higher the efficiency of the CPU the lower the noise and the more liquid, harmonic, and musical the server sounds. Also, a simple motherboard that consumes minimal power, such as one with only VGA video, low-res HDMI video, and/or no 7.1 channel audio, will have lower noise and better performance. This is why Mojo Audio uses a 6w stripped down industrial motherboard in our award-winning Deja Vu music server. Error prevention is always better than error correction. Prevention is better than cure!”


*By stark contrast:*



xiamen said:


> Well Mojo are advertising their  Deja Vu music server at $4555. In it is a "*Intel quad-core processor with turbo boost up to 2.6 GHz*". They aren't even using a fanless case.


----------



## Whitigir

I still don’t get what you mean from your posts, why would you blame on Pinkfaun for being hypocrisy ?


----------



## Villy

Paul Staples said:


> “The faster the CPU, the more power it consumes, the more noise in the system, and the more potential bit errors. Having any more CPU speed than is required to run the processes a music server is running degrades performance. Most audiophile player software uses only one core in a CPU. Having multiple cores in the CPU that are unused also causes additional noise and degrades performance. So a simple high-efficiency dual-core CPU is often your best alternative. And having an "i7" or some other more advanced type of CPU is of no advantage to the audiophile. Note that the "i" in i7 refers to an "instruction set" that is not used by any audiophile player software. Using a dual-core high-efficiency CPU with 3MB of cache is more than enough for most audiophile player software. The higher the efficiency of the CPU the lower the noise and the more liquid, harmonic, and musical the server sounds. Also, a simple motherboard that consumes minimal power, such as one with only VGA video, low-res HDMI video, and/or no 7.1 channel audio, will have lower noise and better performance. This is why Mojo Audio uses a 6w stripped down industrial motherboard in our award-winning Deja Vu music server. Error prevention is always better than error correction. Prevention is better than cure!”
> 
> 
> *By stark contrast:*



Video cards and other components clearly influence the purity of digital stream coming out of a board, I'm not convinced as to the impact of CPU cores and speed capacity though - do have any links to share which support the stated one way or another?


----------



## ptolemy2k6

Hi everyone,

I had a q.. since i2s cable is limited to maybe 6" before feed has a chance to degrade, does anyone has a cable recommendation that's available in USA?


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I still don’t get what you mean from your posts, why would you blame on Pinkfaun for being hypocrisy ?


Sorry! I meant: "Do you think 'with all respect', that MOJO are gulity of a bit of hypocrisy?" Many apologies.


----------



## Paul Staples

Villy said:


> Video cards and other components clearly influence the purity of digital stream coming out of a board, I'm not convinced as to the impact of CPU cores and speed capacity though - do have any links to share which support the stated one way or another?


https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/computer-audio-misconceptions


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 7, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> Sorry! I meant: "Do you think 'with all respect', that MOJO are gulity of a bit of hypocrisy?" Many apologies.


Well, I don’t think, I know what I know and I know what I hear.  Anyways, i2s LVDS don’t degrade with longer cables.  My cables is 1m and it is fine


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> Sorry! I meant: "Do you think 'with all respect', that MOJO are gulity of a bit of hypocrisy?" Many apologies.


Yes and no. Their key premise (other than using low noise power supply) is to have a music server that requires least amount of power for motherboard and cpu (as use of power generates noise). That's fair enough but then to charge $4555 for a minimal system? I can get something like https://www.newegg.com/global/au/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813153316 that needs only 6W TDP/4W SDP for around $200.


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> Yes and no. Their key premise (other than using low noise power supply) is to have a music server that requires least amount of power for motherboard and cpu (as use of power generates noise). That's fair enough but then to charge $4555 for a minimal system? I can get something like https://www.newegg.com/global/au/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813153316 that needs only 6W TDP/4W SDP for around $200.


----------



## rikm

...key premise (other than using low noise power supply) is to have a music server that requires least amount of power for motherboard and cpu (as use of power generates noise
[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> ...well fwiw, over the past several years I have been using and evaluating a series of ARM7 devices, but have recently been playing with the ASRock BeeBox
> 
> https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856158058
> 
> the 3010 model is fanless and has way more horsepower than the ARM devices...so far results are good


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Well, I don’t think, I know what I know and I know what I hear.  Anyways, i2s LVDS don’t degrade with longer cables.  My cables is 1m and it is fine



You answered xiamen's question!


----------



## Paul Staples (Jun 8, 2018)

xiamen said:


> ...key premise (other than using low noise power supply) is to have a music server that requires least amount of power for motherboard and cpu (as use of power generates noise





rikm said:


> ...well fwiw, over the past several years I have been using and evaluating a series of ARM7 devices, but have recently been playing with the ASRock BeeBox
> 
> https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856158058
> 
> the 3010 model is fanless and has way more horsepower than the ARM devices...so far results are good


----------



## Lodwales81

Evening all, been monitoring this thread for some time trying to decide and I'm literally about to hit the button on a chord qutest,  is the best lks really a different league or will the chord be a good choice


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> Evening all, been monitoring this thread for some time trying to decide and I'm literally about to hit the button on a chord qutest,  is the best lks really a different league or will the chord be a good choice


F.W.I.W. I've had 'Chord's' and I prefer the LKS004. Not going back to Chord anytime soon!


----------



## Whitigir

Lodwales81 said:


> Evening all, been monitoring this thread for some time trying to decide and I'm literally about to hit the button on a chord qutest,  is the best lks really a different league or will the chord be a good choice


Buy both, and let us know ;D


----------



## Lodwales81 (Jun 8, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Buy both, and let us know ;D


Unfortunately kidneys don't sell that good on eBay anymore !


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Buy both, and let us know ;D


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> Unfortunately kidneys don't sell that good on eBay anymore !


----------



## norrest

Are there any clicks (in sound) when switching formats (PCM - DSD, DS- PCM)? 
Does it reproduce dsd native on Linux?


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 9, 2018)

@Paul Staples .  Remember what we agreed on ? Less conversions is always better for music right ? Not only in computing, data transfer, but also Mechanical designs and so on for many other things in life...he’ll! Even a passed on messages or conversion, the less conversions is always the better.

So, why NVME and PCIE with Direct I2S is ideal ? Check out these pictures and let it sink in for a bit.  Also, this is not only technically speaking or theoretically speaking....I compared SSD and NVME, there are vast differences

Be known that Pinkfaun also have USB bridge with upgraded OCXO option, if that is the way you choose.  Just remember, DAC communicate by I2S


----------



## Paul Staples (Jun 9, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> @Paul Staples .  Remember what we agreed on ? Less conversions is always better for music right ? Not only in computing, data transfer, but also Mechanical designs and so on for many other things in life...he’ll! Even a passed on messages or conversion, the less conversions is always the better.
> 
> So, why NVME and PCIE with Direct I2S is ideal ? Check out these pictures and let it sink in for a bit.  Also, this is not only technically speaking or theoretically speaking....I compared SSD and NVME, there are vast differences
> 
> Be known that Pinkfaun also have USB bridge with upgraded OCXO option, if that is the way you choose.  Just remember, DAC communicate by I2S



So, what is your point please? Yes, less conversions is always better. I have M2 SATA III SSD (not PCIe slot). Mfr. Part No. SM2280S3G2/240G. I know Pinkfaun also have USB bridge with upgraded OCXO option.





....are you saying I need to get an NVMe - PCIe SSD?
....are you saying I need to transfer my music catalogue from my USB 3 memory stick onto a NVMe - PCIe SSD?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> So, what is your point please? Yes, less conversions is always better. I have M2 SATA III SSD (not PCIe). Mfr. Part No. SM2280S3G2/240G. I know Pinkfaun also have USB bridge with upgraded OCXO option.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just saying, the more the PC evolved, the faster the speed, and the less conversions will happen.  It stands true for music too, and every other things.  I think you are just fine, and I would suggest a LPS first, then OCXO later , depends on how deep the pocket can burn


----------



## Paul Staples (Jun 9, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> I think *you are just fine*, and I would suggest a LPS first, then OCXO later , *depends on how deep the pocket can burn*


.

I think the pockets are _"max'd out"_ for a while (LOL)!

see this:
http://www.velocitymicro.com/blog/nvme-vs-m-2-vs-sata-whats-the-difference/

So, if you have NVMe M2 SSD, do you need a: mainboard, CPU, memory & operating system that can handle/recognise NVMe?


----------



## norrest

_Are there any clicks (in sound) when switching formats (PCM - DSD, DS- PCM)? 
Does it reproduce dsd native on Linux?_
*Nobody uses Linux?
Nobody uses DSD?
What's wrong with you?
*


----------



## norrest (Jun 10, 2018)

If you want, i can send for all vamp (my castom version of volumio ) for PC
It support DSD native


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> .
> 
> I think the pockets are _"max'd out"_ for a while (LOL)!
> 
> ...



Definitely, yes


----------



## xiamen

norrest said:


> If you want, i can send for all vamp (my castom version of volumio ) for PC
> It support DSD native


Stop trolling and have a rest, Norest.


----------



## norrest

xiamen said:


> Stop trolling and have a rest, Norest.


This thread discusses the sources, ssd, and so on, that does not apply to you, so you will tell someone else. Do you understand?


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Definitely, yes


----------



## Paul Staples

....finally got my pink faun capacitor(s). They sent 4 free of charge with free postage - good guys! 
Got 'cold feet' about reflow gun and just went traditional with a very very fine tip on the 'iron'. Cleaned up the pads with wick and tinned them and the legs of the new cap. Then placed the cap. in the demarcated area, went slightly squiffy by about half a millimeter! Never the less - made good solid contact and silver solder connection between the PCB & cap. Now sounds as good as before.


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> ....finally got my pink faun capacitor(s). They sent 4 free of charge with free postage - good guys!
> Got 'cold feet' about reflow gun and just went traditional with a very very fine tip on the 'iron'. Cleaned up the pads with wick and tinned them and the legs of the new cap. Then placed the cap. in the demarcated area, went slightly squiffy by about half a millimeter! Never the less - made good solid contact and silver solder connection between the PCB & cap. Now sounds as good as before.



Makes me wonder, why didn’t you reflow the cap when it was seemingly loose before? Anyways, good jobs!


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Makes me wonder, why didn’t you reflow the cap when it was seemingly loose before? Anyways, good jobs!



I just didn't want to tamper with it while it was still working. No great mystery really. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> I just didn't want to tamper with it while it was still working. No great mystery really. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"


LOL, you are just like me, only tinker where needed and Lazy to do any things if it is unnecessary when having disposable skills set for the job


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> LOL, you are just like me, only tinker where needed and Lazy to do any things if it is unnecessary when having disposable skills set for the job


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> LOL, you are just like me, only tinker where needed and Lazy to do any things if it is unnecessary when having disposable skills set for the job


Hey! ~ is your SSD NVMe?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> Hey! ~ is your SSD NVMe?


Yes sir, I am using 970Pro


----------



## Paul Staples (Jun 10, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Yes sir, I am using 970Pro



So where is the i2s?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> So where is the i2s?



PCI-E , where else my friend ?


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> PCI-E , where else my friend ?



Yes, that's what I thought but I just wanter to check! Any chance of a quick (flow) chart from: SSD (music source) > to headphones/speakers?


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 10, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> Yes, that's what I thought but I just wanter to check! Any chance of a quick (flow) chart from: SSD (music source) > to headphones/speakers?


Well, I try to not install anything that is not necessary for the music sake , everything is turned off.  Just Windows OS, J-river and Music


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Well, I try to not install anything that is not necessary for the music sake , everything is turned off.  Just Windows OS, J-river and Music



So, do you genuinely believe that all the latest 'cleaner', more efficient, more direct & much faster PC devices ultimately lead to better sounding music? (e.g. NVMe SSD).


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> So, do you genuinely believe that all the latest 'cleaner', more efficient, more direct & much faster PC devices ultimately lead to better sounding music? (e.g. NVMe SSD).



I tried using SATA SSD, and NVME has larger/deeper soundstage with better layering where as the SSD was slightly smoother, more intimidating, and more musical.  I opted for NVME because it boot up faster and whatever else, taking less space and I love soundstage more than anything else


----------



## Paul Staples (Jun 11, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> I love soundstage more than anything else



"BINGO!" ~ same here!

Getting these dedicated cables 4 the Seasonic Prime Ultra Titanium 650 Watt MPSU:




 

....these should cut down on the excess cable clutter, improve cooling and airflow. Gets rid of the multl plug cables as these are strictly '1 to 1' custom made jobs, to correct length and spec. From 'modDIY'.


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> Evening all, been monitoring this thread for some time trying to decide and I'm literally about to hit the button on a chord qutest,  is the best lks really a different league or will the chord be a good choice



*Please remember that in this thread it has been stated that the LKS004 has surpassed the performance of the CHORD DAVE!*


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> *Please remember that in this thread it has been stated that the LKS004 has surpassed the performance of the CHORD DAVE!*


If you have a chance to test listen the qutest and like it, you should go ahead. My only "advice" would be you need a good preamp to go with it. I beleive qutest is a pure dac. The 004 can be a good preamp as well according to others on the form. Not that I have done any comparison myself. I'm too far gone having spent lots of time and money rolling preamp tubes already.


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> If you have a chance to test listen the qutest and like it, you should go ahead. My only "advice" would be you need a good preamp to go with it. I beleive qutest is a pure dac. The 004 can be a good preamp as well according to others on the form. Not that I have done any comparison myself. I'm too far gone having spent lots of time and money rolling preamp tubes already.


Yes, "Lodwales81" you should listen to both the qutest and the 004, otherwise you will have no real idea which you prefer, and you will always wonder if you made the right decision. I have blind tested 2 or 3 'Chords' and personally prefer the LKS004, but that's not to say you would reach the same decision/verdict!


----------



## Lodwales81

Paul Staples said:


> Yes, "Lodwales81" you should listen to both the qutest and the 004, otherwise you will have no real idea which you prefer, and you will always wonder if you made the right decision. I have blind tested 2 or 3 'Chords' and personally prefer the LKS004, but that's not to say you would reach the same decision/verdict!


Unfortunately lks dacs are impossible to come across in any of the UK shops, it would be purchased  purely on 
peoples recommendations.


----------



## simon740

Lodwales81 said:


> Unfortunately lks dacs are impossible to come across in any of the UK shops, it would be purchased  purely on
> peoples recommendations.



https://www.ebay.de/itm/LKS-MH-DA00...222371920936?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276#rpdCntId

You can send it back in one month if you don’t like this dac


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> lks dacs would be purchased  purely on people's recommendations.



Of which there are PLENTY. Just wondered where you are, if you are close by at all? Send me a P.M. (if you wish)...


----------



## Lodwales81

I'm in Cardiff Wales , what hi-fi stores UK based deal with LkS I can only find stores in Germany and Holland.


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> I'm in Cardiff Wales , what hi-fi stores UK based deal with LkS I can only find stores in Germany and Holland.



If you are ever in Hull you're welcome to listen!


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 13, 2018)

Hooray, today i am successfully running Pinkfaun i2s into lks004
Still loosing lock at dpll BD01 at cold start up, it needs 10 minutes warm up
Also, the custom HDMI cables is not exactly made for the LKS004.  Gotta buy a module instead.  However, it is adequate to get a glimpse to compare between R2r7 VS LKS004

**10 minutes** and no longer losing lock on DPLL-BW01 on 192k upsample day Jriver and my superbly build PC!

*Holy-cow, the i2s On LKS004 is so freaking good! A lot of Dynamic punches (sound pressure) in comparison to USB!*


Dynamic energies, gotta give an edge to LkS004
Tonal body and inner fidelity realism , the R2R7 wins very obviously. The ability to allow me to differentiate a real organic drum slams vs synthesized drum beats in EDM is crazy enough to call this*
Soundstage, gotta give a slight edge to the R2R7 as it has deeper-wider soundstage, where as 004 soundstage is a bit more intimidating. It gains in playing very detailed trebles, the kinds that I called “over saturated” in my R2R7 review before*. Just can not judge it, the Sigma-Delta of top-tier in it class VS Ladder.

My conclusion again ? LKS004 is cheaper and more affordable, it is more friendly toward many different setups in comparison to R2R7 which will be very honest and spit into your ears if your source *SUCK*! Both of these carry too different sound signatures to be called a Comparison*. More like the differences between sound signatures.

R2r7: very organic, very high quality, picky on sources (will sound horrible)! Immersive soundstage! Trebles is sweeter and better in my opinion (better realism!)....I guess it makes senses because it has much better tonal body resolutions/accuracy and realism

LKS004: Well, it is Sigma-Delta, it doesn’t carry the typical Sabre (saber tooth’s!....that means digital glares are considerably Gone in comparison to the 9018S or ....the past). Dynamic slams! W0000 feel like a drum kick is right to the face (I guess it also is stronger due to more intimidating soundstage and oversaturated edges resolution, FE, the trebles). Very detailed, great soundstage, excellent dynamic punches, over saturated edges resolutions in comparison to R2r7 ! But I know many people loves it!

**also, De-Emphasis Off = wider and deeper soundstage VS On** for lks004

Having both of these DAC, I don’t regret either one. I was about to sell LKS004, but for now ? It is worth laying around until I want to taste *different sound signatures*


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Hooray, today i am successfully running Pinkfaun i2s into lks004
> Still loosing lock at dpll BD01 at cold start up, it needs 10 minutes warm up
> Also, the custom HDMI cables is not exactly made for the LKS004.  Gotta buy a module instead.  However, it is adequate to get a glimpse to compare between R2r7 VS LKS004
> 
> ...



thank you! ~ very detailed & expressive description and conclusion. Very interesting, read this several times to let it sink in! Glad to hear you are keeping the LKS though! What do you mean about the HDMI cable needs a module?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> thank you! ~ very detailed & expressive description and conclusion. Very interesting, read this several times to let it sink in! Glad to hear you are keeping the LKS though! What do you mean about the HDMI cable needs a module?



I am glad you like the comparisons 

My Pinkfaun card is configured for using with AudioGD, and especially R2R7 model.  It has reversed terminals on 4 signals line, and also it has M_Clock lines, where as LKS004 utilize it own M_Clock lines.  So, if I want a proper output for LKS004, I have to replace the module on my Pinkfaun I2S.  However, no need for now.  After warmed up, the 004 can lock into BW001 without problem at 192Khz


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I am glad you like the comparisons
> 
> My Pinkfaun card is configured for using with AudioGD, and especially R2R7 model.  It has reversed terminals on 4 signals line, and also it has M_Clock lines, where as LKS004 utilize it own M_Clock lines.  So, if I want a proper output for LKS004, I have to replace the module on my Pinkfaun I2S.  However, no need for now.  After warmed up, the 004 can lock into BW001 without problem at 192Khz


----------



## ptolemy2k6

quick q everyone: if one don't have dsd files, then is there any benefit is using i2s vs bnc or optical or coax?


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 19, 2018)

ptolemy2k6 said:


> quick q everyone: if one don't have dsd files, then is there any benefit is using i2s vs bnc or optical or coax?



Well, DSD Native suck on LKs004, especially if you try to run it at high quality PLL.

The I2S on the LKS004 Sound very good, eventhough I am still running PCM which is also upsample to 192khz.  Optical sucks....Coax is pretty good, and you can easily run BW01 even if you do DSD, but it will be DOP, because Coax is Multibit


----------



## ptolemy2k6

Whitigir said:


> Well, DSD Native suck on LKs004, especially if you try to run it at high quality PLL.
> 
> The I2S on the LKS004 Sound very good, eventhough I am still running PCM which is also upsample to 192khz


i thought the main reason to use i2s is because of native decryption of dsd stream..   my thought was that if i dont have many/any dsd files, i can run a normal/longer cable to it . which is the preference these days? coax (rca), aes (xlr), bnc (coax connector)?


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 19, 2018)

ptolemy2k6 said:


> i thought the main reason to use i2s is because of native decryption of dsd stream..   my thought was that if i dont have many/any dsd files, i can run a normal/longer cable to it . which is the preference these days? coax (rca), aes (xlr), bnc (coax connector)?



There is never Native DSD by I2S or Coax, these are Multi-bit, and Native DSD is Single 1-bit.  Every DSD will be dissected into 2 or 3 or 4 bits of DOP, which is essentially PCM.  So DOP is never Native DSD.

The differences is that real PCM will be upsample and worked on by DAC, the Multi-bit DOP will be realized by the DAC and then bypass toward the final step of Capacitor arrays to analog signals.

The only Native DSD is Direct DSD Digital toward a capacitors Array (low pass filters) and no DAC in the chain .  Because Native DSD is an already processed signals into 1 bit.  Whatever you are using in between is never Native DSD


----------



## ptolemy2k6

Whitigir said:


> There is never Native DSD by I2S or Coax, these are Multi-bit, and Native DSD is Single 1-bit.  Every DSD will be dissected into 2 or 3 or 4 bits of DOP, which is essentially PCM.  So DOP is never Native DSD.
> 
> The differences is that real PCM will be upsample and worked on by DAC, the Multi-bit DOP will be realized by the DAC and then bypass toward the final step of Capacitor arrays to analog signals.
> 
> The only Native DSD is Direct DSD Digital toward a capacitors Array (low pass filters) and no DAC in the chain .  Because Native DSD is an already processed signals into 1 bit.  Whatever you are using in between is never Native DSD




i appreciate the explanation .  given such then, what would be your preference, if i2s is not possible.  

thank you


----------



## Whitigir

ptolemy2k6 said:


> i appreciate the explanation .  given such then, what would be your preference, if i2s is not possible.
> 
> thank you


I would go with Coax, but usb isn’t bad on lks004...just DSD is a problem, and that is caused by Amanero


----------



## littlexx26

so i have dsd files mostly. will it be better i use foobar to convert to pcm first when playing?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> so i have dsd files mostly. will it be better i use foobar to convert to pcm first when playing?


If you are using the USB port, I would think so, or you can stick to low DPLL


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> so i have dsd files mostly. will it be better i use foobar to convert to pcm first when playing?



That sounds like a bad idea. But it depends on your setup. Where do you get your dsd files from. Are they SACD iso/rips, dsf files from sites like Blue Coast Records or just up sampled from PCM. They say most SACD are just converted from PCM. That may be so, but PCM can go up to 768 KHz and the engineering production may have done a good job with the convert to and convert back. There are also SACD that are direct from master files e.g. https://www.amazon.com/Autumn-Seattle-Tsuyoshi-Yamamoto/dp/B0000YTQ1A. Converting them to PCM is likely to lose details. If you want to use the 004 i2s input, what are you using that provides the i2S output. There is a difference between an i2s stream and what may goes into an i2s input. i2s stream is multi-bit and has nothing to do with native dsd. If for example, you are outputting i2s from a Pink Faun PCIE card, it's PCM only and in fact only goes up to 192 kHz. If you are outputting from usb into an usb/i2s bridge then to 004 such as the Amanero Combo384 or Singxer SU-1, then you can pass either an i2s stream or a dsd stream (that's why the Amanero unit is called a combo). Because the 004 is Delta Sigma dac, it can process the dsd stream in its native form and some suggest that's a good way to go with dsd files. There are other considerations. Firstly, if you are using the Amanero ddc inside the 004, it's been suggested it doesn't handle dsd well with a linux music server. Secondly, the 004 can process PCM at a lower DPLL (or bandwidth) than DSD. In general a lower DPLL gives better jitter rejection. So you should have a clean source to listen to dsd, so that DPLL becomes less important. At the end of the day, listen to both and see what you like better.


----------



## Paul Staples (Jun 21, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> I would go with Coax, but usb isn’t bad on lks004...just DSD is a problem, and that is caused by Amanero



....a few posts ago on this thread somewhere you told me that there is nothing wrong with the Amanero board?

POST: 675


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> ....a few posts ago on this thread somewhere you told me that there is nothing wrong with the Amanero board?
> 
> POST: 675



That was when both of us speaking about the powersupply and the Brass Pins Interconnect of the Amanero stacks.  About the Amanero as ddc conversion module ? It is bad with Native DSD at high speed processing.  It doesn’t matter anyways because you can still stick to low DPLL like BW16 ? Because it Bypass the ESS9038pro anyways.  It is just annoying when you are back to listening to pcm, you need to readjust the Bw


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> That was when both of us speaking about the powersupply and the Brass Pins Interconnect of the Amanero stacks.  About the Amanero as ddc conversion module ? It is bad with Native DSD at high speed processing.  It doesn’t matter anyways because you can still stick to low DPLL like BW16 ? Because it Bypass the ESS9038pro anyways.  It is just annoying when you are back to listening to pcm, you need to readjust the Bw


OK mate, cheers!


----------



## ptolemy2k6

anyone has actual driver from mu sound website? it's down...


----------



## Whitigir

I don’t think there has ever been actual driver from MU, only Amanero


----------



## ptolemy2k6

Whitigir said:


> I don’t think there has ever been actual driver from MU, only Amanero



i can get usb to work just fine but coax via rca gives me an error: Unrecoverable playback error: Could not start ASIO playback


----------



## Whitigir

Coax via rca never give me such error, maybe your cables or source ?


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I don’t think there has ever been actual driver from MU, only Amanero


what's "MU"?


----------



## ptolemy2k6

Whitigir said:


> Coax via rca never give me such error, maybe your cables or source ?


cable is good because I used it on my rig from sound card. Instead to plugging into this dac i had it plugged into other protable dac and it worked. when i switched to usb input, everything works just fine. i guess i could try aes, but I just wanted to try direct coax from soundcard to bypass usb completely



Paul Staples said:


> what's "MU"?



the manufacturer mu audio


----------



## aggielaw

Gents, what is the date of the latest Amanero firmware?  Also, there is a March 2018 firmware release here: https://download.shenzhenaudio.com/LKS/

Also, on the D004 product page there is a link that just says "Driver:http://www.mu-sound.com/about.asp?id=3"  What is that a driver for? (mu-sound seems to be down now.)

Should I update the firmware and driver, and if so, how do I do it?


----------



## xiamen

aggielaw said:


> Gents, what is the date of the latest Amanero firmware?  Also, there is a March 2018 firmware release here: https://download.shenzhenaudio.com/LKS/
> Dont quite understand. If your usb is working
> Also, on the D004 product page there is a link that just says "Driver:http://www.mu-sound.com/about.asp?id=3"  What is that a driver for? (mu-sound seems to be down now.)
> 
> Should I update the firmware and driver, and if so, how do I do it?


Dont understand. If your usb output is working, then your driver is working. I assume you are on windows or you dont need drivers anyway. Where are you outputting coax from. Onboard audio from pc? Then you should install motherboard audio drivers.


----------



## Whitigir

Has anyone had a chance to look into what the ES9038Pro does when it takes in PCM ? I am talking about Oversampling processing from the 9038Pro, what rate is it doing at 2x or 4x or 8x or 16x ?


----------



## aggielaw

I'm using USB in.  It works, but if LKS sees fit to release a firmware update I believe they did it for a reason and I should probably update the firmware.  Same for the Amanero USB.  Often, these releases are not just bug fixes, but new or improved features or improved sound quality.

I'm running a Windows 10 Roon server to a Sonore ultraRendu or to a SOtM 200 ultra trifecta.  Both are Linux, I believe.

Thanks for your help!


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Has anyone had a chance to look into what the ES9038Pro does when it takes in PCM ? I am talking about Oversampling processing from the 9038Pro, what rate is it doing at 2x or 4x or 8x or 16x ?


Depends if you are oversampling pcm to higher pcm or dsd. 9038pro in 004 can do both. For pcm, as high as 384k. For pcm to dsd upsampling, as high as 8x which is 512dsd or 22.8m. In jrive, go to setting and dsp & output format.


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 22, 2018)

xiamen said:


> Depends if you are oversampling pcm to higher pcm or dsd. 9038pro in 004 can do both. For pcm, as high as 384k. For pcm to dsd upsampling, as high as 8x which is 512dsd or 22.8m. In jrive, go to setting and dsp & output format.


Yeah, this part I do realize, but I wonder if using pcm 384khz, does es9038Pro process it by going 8X ? Lks004 is basically capable of DSD 1024 by i2s ....I do not know what source out there can do this yet

Though, how do u update the DAC firmware lol


----------



## ptolemy2k6

I wanted to summarize so I dont go crazy.

If you're running via USB, then you need the drivers. If you are running coax or opt directly from on board sound (back of PC), then you need nothing buy cable and it should work? Or, I am missing something? I tried everything (coax and optical) but I still get that error: Unrecoverable playback error: Could not initialize the driver


----------



## xiamen

ptolemy2k6 said:


> I wanted to summarize so I dont go crazy.
> 
> If you're running via USB, then you need the drivers. If you are running coax or opt directly from on board sound (back of PC), then you need nothing buy cable and it should work? Or, I am missing something? I tried everything (coax and optical) but I still get that error: Unrecoverable playback error: Could not initialize the driver


No. You need drivers for your onboard audio. It should be on your motherboards download. Lets say its Realtek HD-audio. Download the install files and run it. It should become available as an output sound device you can select in your player software.


----------



## ptolemy2k6

xiamen said:


> No. You need drivers for your onboard au.dio. It should be on your motherboards download. Lets say its Realtek HD-audio. Download the install files and run it. It should become available as an output sound device you can select in your player software.



i do have them installed because before this dac, I had ifi micro idsd dac and connected from back of pc rca (coax) to micro idsd rca coax and all worked. so i simply removed micro idsd and connected into new dac and that error.  unless I am missing something>? i def get the output device but when I chose it, speakers play, vs before same output device went to headphones. the error is for the chosing asio output, not the direct realtek hd digital out


----------



## xiamen

ptolemy2k6 said:


> i do have them installed because before this dac, I had ifi micro idsd dac and connected from back of pc rca (coax) to micro idsd rca coax and all worked. so i simply removed micro idsd and connected into new dac and that error.  unless I am missing something>? i def get the output device but when I chose it, speakers play, vs before same output device went to headphones. the error is for the chosing asio output, not the direct realtek hd digital out


Is coax output available under wasapi or kernal streaming?


----------



## ptolemy2k6

xiamen said:


> Is coax output available under wasapi or kernal streaming?


not that I know. that's the weird thing...why would diff dac play speakers vs headphones. i may need to unplug speakers and see if that helps


----------



## xiamen

ptolemy2k6 said:


> not that I know. that's the weird thing...why would diff dac play speakers vs headphones. i may need to unplug speakers and see if that helps


Try installing asio4all and see if the coax nebcomes available as well.


----------



## xiamen

*P*


aggielaw said:


> I'm using USB in.  It works, but if LKS sees fit to release a firmware update I believe they did it for a reason and I should probably update the firmware.  Same for the Amanero USB.  Often, these releases are not just bug fixes, but new or improved features or improved sound quality.
> 
> I'm running a Windows 10 Roon server to a Sonore ultraRendu or to a SOtM 200 ultra trifecta.  Both are Linux, I believe.
> 
> Thanks for your help!


There is a thread on github on this  Just google lks mh-da004 github. The latest version is be2004 from memory, out a few weeks ago. Im on Windows so I havent come across the issue myself. But apparently on some linux music server, there are hissing background noises when playing dsd. If you dont have the problem, its up to you if you want to try that latest version to see if you can hear any diffrences.


----------



## ptolemy2k6

xiamen said:


> Try installing asio4all and see if the coax nebcomes available as well.



ty i fixed it before that. i had to basically unplug all, reconnect, boot pc again and when I selected digital out, it worked... maybe the issue was some kinda windows memory thing


----------



## littlexx26 (Jun 23, 2018)

after changed another usb cable, now i can play dsd64 to 512 at BW08. before the lowest is BW10, with igalvanic and micro iusb 3.0. now is direct from notebook to dac


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> after changed another usb cable, now i can play dsd64 to 512 at BW08. before the lowest is BW10, with igalvanic and micro iusb 3.0. now is direct from notebook to dac


What player software are you using? Are you upsampling real time?


----------



## littlexx26

xiamen said:


> What player software are you using? Are you upsampling real time?


i use HQPlayer to upsample real time


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> i use HQPlayer to upsample real time


Yes. Similar to me. I can do HQplayer at BW7. Only have a trial license. I kind of expect its better than jriver at BW9, multi threaded and all. But somehow I always gravitate back to jriver. Not to mention If I pull the trigger on HQplayer, I probably have to go Roon as well for the ui.


----------



## littlexx26 (Jun 24, 2018)

xiamen said:


> Yes. Similar to me. I can do HQplayer at BW7. Only have a trial license. I kind of expect its better than jriver at BW9, multi threaded and all. But somehow I always gravitate back to jriver. Not to mention If I pull the trigger on HQplayer, I probably have to go Roon as well for the ui.


i have dsd iso files mostly. so i use foobar as the main player. it can do bw06 or 05 at dsd64 with the new usb cable. have to test longer time to confirm.


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> i have dsd iso files mostly. so i use foobar as the main player. it can do bw06 or 05 at dsd64 with the new usb cable. have to test longer time to confirm.


Sounds like a magic cable . What is it? What was your old cable and what BW you were at before?


----------



## ptolemy2k6

To follow up on my issues. If I use USB then asio works fine (pic with black lines). But coax or optical from my on board audio, only one selected works. Other error as mentioned before. I assume it's normal ?


----------



## littlexx26 (Jun 24, 2018)

xiamen said:


> Sounds like a magic cable . What is it? What was your old cable and what BW you were at before?


http://www.madscientist-audio.com/bmusb.html
my old cable is Oyaide continental 5s v2. i use 2. from notebook to igalvanic, and from micro iusb to dac. uptone uspcb in between. this new cable is dead silent. before the best is BW10


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> http://www.madscientist-audio.com/bmusb.html
> my old cable is Oyaide continental 5s v2. i use 2. from notebook to igalvanic, and from micro iusb to dac. uptone uspcb in between. this new cable is dead silent. before the best is BW10


Lol. Not onl


littlexx26 said:


> http://www.madscientist-audio.com/bmusb.html
> my old cable is Oyaide continental 5s v2. i use 2. from notebook to igalvanic, and from micro iusb to dac. uptone uspcb in between. this new cable is dead silent. before the best is BW10


Lol. Not only is it a magic cable, its a black magic one. How do you come across it. Did you compare it to the iFi usb cables, since you already have few iFi things in your chain. I use the iFi mercury 3.0.


----------



## littlexx26

xiamen said:


> Lol. Not onl
> 
> Lol. Not only is it a magic cable, its a black magic one. How do you come across it. Did you compare it to the iFi usb cables, since you already have few iFi things in your chain. I use the iFi mercury 3.0.



actually i am planning to buy mercury3.0. but a bit hesitating since if i buy, i have to buy 3. and one day when i reading a post in audiogon about total contact. someone mentioned mad scientist audio also producing graphene base contact enhancer. i checked the website and found the black magic. it is good timing since that black magic just released  in may. i decided to give it a try as his theory is totally new.


----------



## Whitigir

Has anyone updated DAC firmware yet


----------



## Paul Staples (Jun 24, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> http://www.madscientist-audio.com/bmusb.html
> my old cable is Oyaide continental 5s v2. i use 2. from notebook to igalvanic, and from micro iusb to dac. uptone uspcb in between. this new cable is dead silent. before the best is BW10



...this is $499, for a cable    O.M.G.!


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> ...this is $499, for a cable    O.M.G.!



Lol, why so surprised ? Cables market is a good blooming market.


----------



## littlexx26

for the usb cable, i will stop here. very satisfied.
for xlr, i stopped at cerious technologies graphene matrix. very satisfied.
for speaker cable, now i am using all silver lavricable master, i think there should be something better. i have cerious technologies graphene speaker cables here but they are too heavy for my desktop system.
for power cord, i have oyaide gpx-r v2 to int. amp. HFC reveal to dac. i think there should be something better.
and i still using my daily driver notebook as a player....not sure about this


----------



## Whitigir

I can tell you that Cables can only do so much, but moving from a laptop into a dedicated PC built for music will be 300% better....hell, it is better when I moved away from an expensive wm1Z Walkman as a transport


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I can tell you that Cables can only do so much,


----------



## CJ Hsiao

Anyone tried feeding the MH-DA004 high res audio from iOS? Tried feeding 24/96 FLAC and DSD 64 using Onkyo HF Player on my iPad via camera kit USB, the DAC recognized it as 44K in both cases. This doesn’t happen with my other DACs. Anyone with any ideas?


----------



## Paul Staples

↑
I'm in Cardiff Wales , what hi-fi stores UK based deal with LkS I can only find stores in Germany and Holland.



Paul Staples said:


> If you are ever in Hull you're welcome to listen!



...a thank you would have been nice!


----------



## Lodwales81

I do appreciate the offer mate been on holiday so not much internet time ,  I purchased a unit from Amazon for £430 seems to good to be true but fingers crossed it arrives.


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> I do appreciate the offer mate been on holiday so not much internet time ,  I purchased a unit from Amazon for £430 seems to good to be true but fingers crossed it arrives.


"a unit"? ~ LKS?  ..or something else perhaps? seems like a very good price if it's the 004?


----------



## Lodwales81

Yep the Lks da004, it due to be delivered on Thursday but we will see. Purchase is from amazon so I'm not concerned about rogue sellers. I noticed from time to time that items prices especially Chinese goods are slashed for a few says then go back up.


----------



## xiamen

Lodwales81 said:


> Yep the Lks da004, it due to be delivered on Thursday but we will see. Purchase is from amazon so I'm not concerned about rogue sellers. I noticed from time to time that items prices especially Chinese goods are slashed for a few says then go back up.





Lodwales81 said:


> I do appreciate the offer mate been on holiday so not much internet time ,  I purchased a unit from Amazon for £430 seems to good to be true but fingers crossed it arrives.


Really? I did have a quick look in amazon.co.uk. Didn't see anything under £1000, not even da003.


----------



## Lodwales81

See attached, description shows new used then explains item was used in a demo then boxed back up. Selling my schiit bitfrost on ebay for around £200 so not much cash spent on this dac


----------



## xiamen

Lodwales81 said:


> See attached, description shows new used then explains item was used in a demo then boxed back up. Selling my schiit bitfrost on ebay for around £200 so not much cash spent on this dac


Well done. All the best.


----------



## Whitigir

Has anyone been successfully configure lks004 to run D512 Natively yet ? If so, what program and how did you configure it ? I can’t run Jriver Natively D512 output toward lks004


----------



## littlexx26

I use HQPlayer upsample to DSD512. no problem


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> I use HQPlayer upsample to DSD512. no problem



That is on the fly right ? Not sure how that works, but a real D512 stored file cant be played through Jriver or foobar and I dont khow why


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> That is on the fly right ? Not sure how that works, but a real D512 stored file cant be played through Jriver or foobar and I dont khow why


So, does on the fly works for you?


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> So, does on the fly works for you?


Have not tried it as I don’t have HQPlayer purchased


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Have not tried it as I don’t have HQPlayer purchased


Try doing it on the fly with Jriver. Use PCM source say 44.1K/16 bit. Output format 8xDSD. Bitsstreaming audio set to custom and tick DSD. Set buffer time to 500msec and BW to 10. Your machine is powerful enough to do this on the fly.


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> Yep the Lks da004, it due to be delivered on Thursday but we will see. Purchase is from amazon so I'm not concerned about rogue sellers. I noticed from time to time that items prices especially Chinese goods are slashed for a few says then go back up.


Oh! ~ I wasn't aware of that fact!


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> Really? I did have a quick look in amazon.co.uk. Didn't see anything under £1000, not even da003.


me too!


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> See attached, description shows new used then explains item was used in a demo then boxed back up. Selling my schiit bitfrost on ebay for around £200 so not much cash spent on this dac


well done! i.e. just pay the difference!


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Has anyone been successfully configure lks004 to run D512 Natively yet ? If so, what program and how did you configure it ? I can’t run Jriver Natively D512 output toward lks004


LOL! ~ mate, I don't even understand the question: "D512?"


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> That is on the fly right ? Not sure how that works, but a real D512 stored file cant be played through Jriver or foobar and I dont khow why


ME TOO?


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Have not tried it as I don’t have HQPlayer purchased


...nor me!


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> Try doing it on the fly with Jriver. Use PCM source say 44.1K/16 bit. Output format 8xDSD. Bitsstreaming audio set to custom and tick DSD. Set buffer time to 500msec and BW to 10. Your machine is powerful enough to do this on the fly.


...sounds like chinese to me ~ LOL!


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 27, 2018)

Never mind, I got the Jriver to do this on the fly D512, Christ! What a pain.  Time to observe the performances.

Gotta use Combo384 ASIO 1.03(ASIO) for device driver
Buffering 500ms
DSD over PCM or DOP
Output encoding to 8XDSD in Native format
Using prebuffering to 20 seconds
And I am sitting at BW08 woaaa, surprisingly for D512, so Amanero isn’t that bad if the PC is powerful enough with the right configuration

What is your guys BW when Upsampling to D512 on the fly guys ?


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Never mind, I got the Jriver to do this on the fly D512, Christ! What a pain.  Time to observe the performances.
> 
> Gotta use Combo384 ASIO 1.03(ASIO) for device driver
> Buffering 500ms
> ...


Sorry mate! Only PCM here. Don't get all this DSD512 stuff? Don't have any DSD recordings either. Know doubt someone else will help you out shortly.


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> Sorry mate! Only PCM here. Don't get all this DSD512 stuff? Don't have any DSD recordings either. Know doubt someone else will help you out shortly.



What I am doing is essentially Upconverting PCM to D512 on the fly toward LKS004.


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> What I am doing is essentially Upconverting PCM to D512 on the fly toward LKS004.


.

how it sounds at 512?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> .
> 
> how it sounds at 512?



I gotta say that the best possibility to get full lks004 capability is the D512 and eventhough I am upconverting offline or on the fly, it always sound so much better, and I dont mean just little thing here and there.  The whole spectrum sees an improvement.  Most noticeably with much darker back ground and higher treble resolution, higher treble density


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> I gotta say that the best possibility to get full lks004 capability is the D512 and eventhough I am upconverting offline or on the fly, it always sound so much better, and I dont mean just little thing here and there.  The whole spectrum sees an improvement.  Most noticeably with much darker back ground and higher treble resolution, higher treble density


You know you may be up for spending even more money. An audiophile usb pcie card may be an OCXO one and a really good usb cable like the black magic one. It's never ending. You should feed the Pink Faun to your ladder dac.


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 28, 2018)

xiamen said:


> You know you may be up for spending even more money. An audiophile usb pcie card may be an OCXO one and a really good usb cable like the black magic one. It's never ending. You should feed the Pink Faun to your ladder dac.


I know all the magic about USB cables (mine is 18Awg per wire ultrapure silver USB cables) and I have no problem spending more money for Pcie USB modules.  Just at this moment, the lks004 cant sound as organic or as realistic as my ladder DAC.


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> I know all the magic about USB cables (mine is 18Awg per wire ultrapure silver USB cables) and I have no problem spending more money for Pcie USB modules.  Just at this moment, the lks004 cant sound as organic or as realistic as my ladder DAC.


is your silver wire continuous mono crystal  like the siltech one?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> is your silver wire continuous mono crystal  like the siltech one?


There is no such thing, silver is made differently than copper


----------



## natemact

Whitigir said:


> There is no such thing, silver is made differently than copper


I’m familiar with Dr. Ohno's continuous cast research performed here at the University of Toronto. Can you please explain why you believe silver can’t be cast instead of drawn through a die?


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 28, 2018)

natemact said:


> I’m familiar with Dr. Ohno's continuous cast research performed here at the University of Toronto. Can you please explain why you believe silver can’t be cast instead of drawn through a die?



The method of how to make silver is different than copper

Check out this link and you will know 

Silver is essential an extracted metal, where as Copper is Casted or Drawn, and OCC is like you said “Casting”

Silver can only have 2 grades now, common Silver, or Ultra Pure.  Many manufacturers just refer to Ultra Pure Silver as OCC-Silver, because when people think of OCC, they think of something special....like a special grade of Copper (which is real), and they will automatically associated with Special grade Silver (which is fine) but there is no such thing as OCC silver


----------



## natemact

Whitigir said:


> The method of how to make silver is different than copper
> 
> Check out this link and you will know
> 
> ...


OK there's must be some type of confusion here because you're way too smart to believe this : ) What I get from that bolded sentence is that you don't believe silver can be drawn, forget casting for now lol. Please tell me this is not what you meant. 

What did you send me? That was a link on how to extract silver from silver ore 

Honestly, I would've just left this alone if it was someone who I didn't think it really mattered if they knew the truth or not. But we can't have you going through your life not believing in OCC silver : ) You've taught me a lot following your build and I feel I should reciprocate something back.

Firstly, and forgive me if you already are privy to any of this, there are other ways to get a metal free from grain-boundaries. A company like AudioQuest purchases drawn copper and silver then polishes the grainy texture off the cable either in a one or two step process, instead of purchasing OCC metals. Both processes are trying to replicate the very same thing, a cable surface free of boundaries allowing for uninterrupted signal flow.

Secondly, I'll also mention that the purity of the metal always meant more to my ears then whether it's OCC or not. Cardas is a great example. They are only one of two cable companies in the world that draw their own copper in house. Cardas actually sells it's copper to dozens of cable manufacturers, with AQ and Kimber being only two of the notables. Nordost is the other cable company drawing their own copper (they silver-plate). Point is, neither of these massive cables companies - possibly the two with the biggest reach in the world - neither of them use OCC. Purity, draw speed and die quality, polishing and construction is what makes a cable, but OCC has it's purpose if you start with very pure metal. Namely polishing 24-28awg wire evenly and consistently is an expensive process. More expensive then just purchasing OCC metals from one of the three manufacturers in the world.   

Onto the silver OCC myth. There's some very well credentialed links at the bottom if you'd like to peruse.

This gentleman with an undergraduate degree in Chemical Engineering with specialty in Metallurgy and a Master’s degree in Mechanical Engineering in robotics, runs a very successful cable company out of Toronto and his father worked on his Ph. D. degree in Chemical Engineering at U of T at the same time as Dr. Ohno in the early sixties and they went on to become lifelong friends ever since. Btw I'm good friends with this gentleman and have been shown mulitple photos from multiple years of his father and Dr. Ohno together. So the story definitely checks out.

Please have a look at his thoughts on OCC. I'm sorry but until anyone speaks with folks as close to the OCC process as Steven has, and continues to this day, no one should be allowed to argue against the point when he stats that, "Ohno Continuous Casting...can be used with a wide variety of metals including copper, silver, aluminum, tin, bismuth, and others." He uses both OCC copper and silver in his cables and would basically tell you, who are you to claim his silver isn't OCC? He may be an a**hole about it now, but he's a correct a**hole : )

https://www.dagogo.com/an-interview-with-steven-huang-of-audio-sensibility/
https://audiosensibility.com/blog/technology/ohno-continuous-casting-occ/
https://audiosensibility.com/blog/2017/04/19/sad-news-dr-atsumi-ohno-passed-away/


----------



## bearwarrior

natemact said:


> OK there's must be some type of confusion here because you're way too smart to believe this : ) What I get from that bolded sentence is that you don't believe silver can be drawn, forget casting for now lol. Please tell me this is not what you meant.
> 
> What did you send me? That was a link on how to extract silver from silver ore
> 
> ...



LMAO. I think you should invite this gentleman to tell us OCC instead of yourself.

It is also my first time to hear that the grain boundaries can be polished off. If you meant to talk about annealing, that process can reduce the amount of grain boundaries but will not transform the crystal into single crystal. If you or someone else you know can do that, the Noble Prize of this year is nominated.

Please stop spreading fake science in this well-appreciated forum.


----------



## xiamen

bearwarrior said:


> LMAO. I think you should invite this gentleman to tell us OCC instead of yourself.
> 
> It is also my first time to hear that the grain boundaries can be polished off. If you meant to talk about annealing, that process can reduce the amount of grain boundaries but will not transform the crystal into single crystal. If you or someone else you know can do that, the Noble Prize of this year is nominated.
> 
> Please stop spreading fake science in this well-appreciated forum.


"Spreading fake science in this well respected forum" ??? Wow. So much for civil to your fellow posters.


----------



## natemact

bearwarrior said:


> LMAO. I think you should invite this gentleman to tell us OCC instead of yourself.
> 
> It is also my first time to hear that the grain boundaries can be polished off. If you meant to talk about annealing, that process can reduce the amount of grain boundaries but will not transform the crystal into single crystal. If you or someone else you know can do that, the Noble Prize of this year is nominated.
> 
> Please stop spreading fake science in this well-appreciated forum.


Sorry I misspoke. I was referring only to the grain imprinted on the metal via the process of being drawn through a die. This is indeed polished off (redrawn) in house by AudioQuest - due to the skin-effect - and annealed. They claim it reduces grain boundaries as well, but no, will not magically transform into single crystal. I shouldn't have used the word "free" and for this I apologize. Do you accept my apology?

While a single crystal of metal is beneficial to the transmission of signal an argument can be made that an extremely smooth surface (smoother than OCC unless polished afterwards) may be of greater consequence. Purity is still king tho.

To how you started off, Had you've briefly checked out the links I provided you possibly could've saved yourself acting such a schmuck.....doubt it tho considering your handle doesn't exactly scream "I love puppies". May we never meet again


----------



## Whitigir

Thanks guys, I have been pretty crazy about materials and purity for Audio performances and I previously believe in OCC silver too, but it turned out that these are “ultra pure” silver instead.  Anyways, back to the original question, yes, I am using Ultra Pure Silver (OCC as claimed by other people or whatever) USB cables .


----------



## Paul Staples

Finally pulled the trigger and bought two: Samsung 250GB 960 M.2 (2280)  Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW. 

One for the O/S and music apps.
The other for music files only.


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Never mind, I got the Jriver to do this on the fly D512, Christ! What a pain.  Time to observe the performances.
> 
> Gotta use Combo384 ASIO 1.03(ASIO) for device driver
> Buffering 500ms
> ...


I play mostly at BW09. At lower BW, I can get hiss switching between PCM and native DSD tracks. In my case, I feel BW level doesn't make much difference when your music server is dedicated and high spec. I actually feel that BW10 may be a better level than 8 or 9. You should be able to play dsd512 dsf files simply by turning dsd bit streaming on, but keep 8xdsd for your PCM files. For me, playing native dsf doesn't allow you to lower your BW by much. I think the BW level is determined more by what goes into the DAC rather than if the source is native dsd or upsampled on the fly dsf. PCM being of much smaller size allows the DAC to decode at lower BW. On my machine, native dsd reduce the load on the cpu, and core wattage usage  on jriver drops from 25-30 watts to about 15-16 watts. Generally core temperature is 40C except for the core with the load is 60C since jriver is not a multi-threaded application. Technically, using less power should mean less noise interference to the audio. But any difference (if any) I can hear is minimal. Playing on HQPlayer allows you to play at lower BW (about BW06-07). HQPlayer is multi-thread and load is spread more evenly across the cores. But the up sampling algorithm on HQPlayer seems more complex and wattage usage actually is higher at close to 40 watts. Temperature is also somewhat higher about 45-70 C. Playing native DSD512 has similar stats to Jriver. It should sound better than Jriver with better up sampling algorithms and multi-threaded but I don't hear it myself.


----------



## Whitigir

I do think the 100Mhz clock inside the lks004 is the element that limit the lks004 performances.  What is possible upgrade here ? Pulsar ? I saw someone was about to perform the mod, but he doesn’t post anymore.  The board seems to be ready for a Dip-socket type, which make Pulsar mod a huge possibility.

Also wonder if replacing Nichicon fine gold into Audio grade Nichicon capacitors, it may improve the performances too 47mF


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I do think the 100Mhz clock inside the lks004 is the element that limit the lks004 performances.  What is possible upgrade here ? Pulsar ? I saw someone was about to perform the mod, but he doesn’t post anymore.  The board seems to be ready for a Dip-socket type, which make Pulsar mod a huge possibility.
> 
> Also wonder if replacing Nichicon fine gold into Audio grade Nichicon capacitors, it may improve the performances too 47mF


worth asking LKS about this to see if they concur with you?


----------



## littlexx26

anyone tried Fidelizer Nimitra as a source? or buying a gaming board to build myself yield better results?


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> anyone tried Fidelizer Nimitra as a source? or buying a gaming board to build myself yield better results?


No. But the spec suggest a low power and therefore low noise approach. Your laptop probably more highly spec. May be ok for straight pcm playback but I dont think the spec is good for upsampling. In any case, the source can do so much. At some point, the dac becomes the weakest link.


----------



## xiamen

xiamen said:


> No. But the spec suggest a low power and therefore low noise approach. Your laptop probably more highly spec. May be ok for straight pcm playback but I dont think the spec is good for upsampling. In any case, the source can do so much. At some point, the dac becomes the weakest link.


Unless you can build diy along these lines https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ULTIMAT...013091?hash=item1a53db0823:g:GHAAAOSwi0RbJ8x4.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Clock is not only important on about with phase noises, there are more.  But another important aspect of this is the *stability and noises of the powersupply going into the clock*.  You can buy a clock for cheap, and if you don’t have a good low noises regulating in design, your clock will mostly goes to waste.  Yes, with external LPS, it will help to further enhance the Pinkfaun, but the Pinkfaun itself need to also be with a good design.  It explains why the Upgraded clock is very expensive



a chain is only as strong as its weakest link!

Surely, if you only put the ocxo clock on the pink faun i2s, it will be fighting the inferior clocks on the mainboard and inside the DAC? i.e. the i2s ocxo clock will not perform at its best as it is restricted by the lesser quality clocks within the overall system? Surely ALL the clocks in the system have to be of the same specification? i.e. the poorest/weakest clock within the overall system will govern the total system perfomance? i.e. all clocks must be upgraded to the same specification to gain the overall advantage?


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> a chain is only as strong as its weakest link!
> 
> Surely, if you only put the ocxo clock on the pink faun i2s, it will be fighting the inferior clocks on the mainboard and inside the DAC? i.e. the i2s ocxo clock will not perform at its best as it is restricted by the lesser quality clocks within the overall system? Surely ALL the clocks in the system have to be of the same specification? i.e. the poorest/weakest clock within the overall system will govern the total system perfomance? i.e. all clocks must be upgraded to the same specification to gain the overall advantage?


I don't know the answer. I would have thought the clock that governs the audio output (i.e. Pink Faun i2s bridge) is what matters. I note also that the quality of the motherboard clock is not all the same. In general, gaming boards "seems" to have better clock so you can overclock. I think (but I don't really know). For example, the Asus gaming boards has "Pro Clock Technology" https://www.coursehero.com/file/p7n...ded-BCLK-overclocking-range-2nd-Generation-T/. My motherboard Asrock Z370 Taichi actually uses an external clock for more precise clock waveform https://i.redd.it/m6wi53le51jy.png.


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> a chain is only as strong as its weakest link!
> 
> Surely, if you only put the ocxo clock on the pink faun i2s, it will be fighting the inferior clocks on the mainboard and inside the DAC? i.e. the i2s ocxo clock will not perform at its best as it is restricted by the lesser quality clocks within the overall system? Surely ALL the clocks in the system have to be of the same specification? i.e. the poorest/weakest clock within the overall system will govern the total system perfomance? i.e. all clocks must be upgraded to the same specification to gain the overall advantage?



The Pinkfaun is switched automatically to OCXO clock when presented, and the same for powersupply if both moles and external are applied.  It is called engineering


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> The Pinkfaun is switched automatically to OCXO clock when presented, and the same for powersupply if both moles and external are applied.  It is called engineering


_"and the same for powersupply if both moles and external are applied"  _...pardon? doesn't make any sense?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> _"and the same for powersupply if both moles and external are applied"  _...pardon? doesn't make any sense?


The card has internal Molex connector to tap on into Sata peripheral lines.  Or you can connect external via DC.  It automatically switch to external connection when both are presented


----------



## Paul Staples (Jul 3, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> The card has internal Molex connector to tap on into Sata peripheral lines.  Or you can connect external via DC.  It automatically switch to external connection when both are presented



OK! ~ I just thought like paul pang: ...

(https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ULTIMATE...wi0RbJ8x4&clk_rvr_id=1586045733740&rmvSB=true   ..."ULTIMATE" OCXO High-End Audiophile Music Server - CAT - PPA Studio PAUL Pang)

... that all clocks should be optimized i.e. no weak links in the clock department! He seems to think that all the clocks should ideally be optimized? OTT?

e.g.

OCXO-clock on all internal components (input & output)
OCXO-module also on LAN chip for optimal streaming
Paul Pang chose for a new design. In this new streamer his high-end OCXO clock module is attached to ALL internal components. This high-end OCXO-clock module works with:

V5 USB-output
SSD for music
SSD for OS
LAN-chip on motherboard
*Ultra low jitter OCXO-clock* on all components:

OCXO on M.2 SATA SSD (OS)
OCXO on M.2 SATA SSD (music)
OCXO on Paul Pang USB V5 card
OCXO on network connection


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> I don't know the answer.



OK! ~ thanx for that pertinent & apposite comment!


----------



## Whitigir

Each clock is dedicated to it own task.  It depends on what you want.  Certainly paulpang streamer is a steal.


----------



## Lennym

Whitigir said:


> Each clock is dedicated to it own task.  It depends on what you want.  Certainly paulpang streamer is a steal.


I read the Paul Pang page.  Seems to be a bit of puffery.
Says, "No jitter & timing errors."   As I understand it, jitter can be reduced, but not completely eliminated.
Also, it extols the quality of its OCXO clock(s) but doesn't provide the clock's specifications other than "ultra low jitter" (not the fore mentioned "no jitter") which is kind of a meaningless expression used by a lot of low price units of all kinds.


----------



## Whitigir

Lennym said:


> I read the Paul Pang page.  Seems to be a bit of puffery.
> Says, "No jitter & timing errors."   As I understand it, jitter can be reduced, but not completely eliminated.
> Also, it extols the quality of its OCXO clock(s) but doesn't provide the clock's specifications other than "ultra low jitter" (not the fore mentioned "no jitter") which is kind of a meaningless expression used by a lot of low price units of all kinds.



Well, when you know your stuff, there is no need to dig out those who is trying to make a living.    anyways, his products are actually still better in build and price than others.


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> OK! ~ I just thought like paul pang: ...
> 
> (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ULTIMATE...wi0RbJ8x4&clk_rvr_id=1586045733740&rmvSB=true   ..."ULTIMATE" OCXO High-End Audiophile Music Server - CAT - PPA Studio PAUL Pang)
> 
> ...


Here is a forum where modders played with clock upgrades www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=3062.0. Some interesting takes.


----------



## Lennym

Paul Staples said:


> worth asking LKS about this to see if they concur with you?





Whitigir said:


> I do think the 100Mhz clock inside the lks004 is the element that limit the lks004 performances.  What is possible upgrade here ? Pulsar ? I saw someone was about to perform the mod, but he doesn’t post anymore.  The board seems to be ready for a Dip-socket type, which make Pulsar mod a huge possibility.
> 
> Also wonder if replacing Nichicon fine gold into Audio grade Nichicon capacitors, it may improve the performances too 47mF





Paul Staples said:


> worth asking LKS about this to see if they concur with you?


Better, I think, to ask b0bb.  He may, though, prefer to answer over on the DA-003 forum which is more of a "modification" forum than this one.  IIRC it's a bit more complicated than just exchanging clocks.
I don't think LKS would care to comment on mods of its products; I'm not sure it has ever done so.


----------



## Paul Staples (Jul 5, 2018)

Lennym said:


> Better, I think, to ask b0bb.  He may, though, prefer to answer over on the DA-003 forum which is more of a "modification" forum than this one.  IIRC it's a bit more complicated than just exchanging clocks.
> I don't think LKS would care to comment on mods of its products; I'm not sure it has ever done so.


well, there's one way to find out! (ask jinbo)...

**********************************************************************************

Now wrote to jinbo!


----------



## Paul Staples (Jul 5, 2018)

xiamen said:


> I would have thought the clock that governs the audio output (i.e. Pink Faun i2s bridge) is what matters.



thank you!   ...please present your evidence that supports this claim, i.e. your factualised evidence that makes you state such a claim in the first instance, to convince me beyond all doubt that this is indeed the case. Cheers!

...(bearing in mind that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link)


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I do think the 100Mhz clock inside the lks004 is the element that limit the lks004 performances.  What is possible upgrade here ? Pulsar ? I saw someone was about to perform the mod, but he doesn’t post anymore.  The board seems to be ready for a Dip-socket type, which make Pulsar mod a huge possibility.
> 
> Also wonder if replacing Nichicon fine gold into Audio grade Nichicon capacitors, it may improve the performances too 47mF



I am still doubtful all this: "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis" ...can make to the purity of the audio sound/music? I have recently looked at websites selling PRO AUDIO recording equipment e.g. http://www.inta-audio.com/pc-builder/select_base#selected_unit_6    ...and non of them say anything about "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis", despite advertising very expensive microphone and electric instrumentation interfaces like "focusrite" and PRO vocal microphones! Surely if these PC's are for recording professionals they do not consider that "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis" are all that important to the quality of a professional recording? If they did think that "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis" was critically important to the recording process - THEY WOULD USE THEM!   ...but it appears - they DON'T!


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> I am still doubtful all this: "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis" ...can make to the purity of the audio sound/music? I have recently looked at websites selling PRO AUDIO recording equipment e.g. http://www.inta-audio.com/pc-builder/select_base#selected_unit_6    ...and non of them say anything about "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis", despite advertising very expensive microphone and electric instrumentation interfaces like "focusrite" and PRO vocal microphones! Surely if these PC's are for recording professionals they do not consider that "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis" are all that important to the quality of a professional recording? If they did think that "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis" was critically important to the recording process - THEY WOULD USE THEM!   ...but it appears - they DON'T!


Unfortunately, you would never know if something is worth it until you listen to it yourself. May be there are showrooms near you where you can listen for free and make your own judgement. The link you referred to may be a shop with great microphones, but the spec of their "music pc" are pretty ordinary in my book. While would you need Thunderbolt 3 or 64 GB of memory for a music server http://www.inta-audio.com/pc-builder/select_base#selected_unit_6 ? Anyway, it appears you are a Pink Faun fan. So here is a real music server in my book https://www.pinkfaun.com/index.php/products/streaming-audio/pink-faun-streamer-2-16.html. But then their price is many times more.


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> Unfortunately, you would never know if something is worth it until you listen to it yourself. May be there are showrooms near you where you can listen for free and make your own judgement. The link you referred to may be a shop with great microphones, but the spec of their "music pc" are pretty ordinary in my book. While would you need Thunderbolt 3 or 64 GB of memory for a music server http://www.inta-audio.com/pc-builder/select_base#selected_unit_6 ? Anyway, it appears you are a Pink Faun fan. So here is a real music server in my book https://www.pinkfaun.com/index.php/products/streaming-audio/pink-faun-streamer-2-16.html. But then their price is many times more.


there are several other places selling "pro audio" PC's similar to INTA that don't say anything about "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis"  but like you say they are usually cheaper than things like pink faun etc. There may be showrooms near me that have things with "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis" etc. I'll look in to it.


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> there are several other places selling "pro audio" PC's similar to INTA that don't say anything about "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis"  but like you say they are usually cheaper than things like pink faun etc. There may be showrooms near me that have things with "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis" etc. I'll look in to it.


Holland is not that far away from you


Paul Staples said:


> there are several other places selling "pro audio" PC's similar to INTA that don't say anything about "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis"  but like you say they are usually cheaper than things like pink faun etc. There may be showrooms near me that have things with "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis" etc. I'll look in to it.


May be you can go to Pink Faun showroom. Holland is not that far from you right . I have to say I'm skeptical whether you need OCXO clock on everything. I did ask Pink Faun re upgrading motherboard clock. The answer was:

"Thanks for mailing, replacing the motherboards clock is a huge upgrade but is a very delicate job to do. Without any experience it’s a risk to do it yourself. You can send me the board so I can replace the clock, I charge an extra fee of €100 per clock. I can also test the motherboard before shipping it back.
The Z370 board also has a separate clock for the processor, this one is also very important. In our own streamer 2.16 X I replace this clock also.

Best regards / Met vriendelijke groet 

Jord Groen, Triple M audio shop"


----------



## Paul Staples (Jul 6, 2018)

*how to build ultimate PC audiophile streamer:*

...no mention of: "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis"! ...On the contrary, it actually extols the virtues of using fans!!

http://www.modelpromo.nl/Audio Dandy Streamer Part 2.htm

"Even passively cooled hardware needs a little airflow to work perfectly.
That means that we recommend at least two special 120mm chassis fan's to
generate a little airflow through the chassis.

These chassis fan's are not required for normal working operation but they will
greatly improve the lifespan of your expensive hardware equipment."


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> Holland is not that far away from you
> 
> May be you can go to Pink Faun showroom. Holland is not that far from you right . I have to say I'm skeptical whether you need OCXO clock on everything. I did ask Pink Faun re upgrading motherboard clock. The answer was:
> 
> ...



thank you!


----------



## Paul Staples (Jul 5, 2018)

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...phase-noise-jitter-crystal-oscillator-93.html

*QUOTE:

"24 MHz Crystal*
Before you get too far please be sure of what you hope to accomplish *upgrading crystals on motherboards and USB interfaces. In both cases jitter or phase noise is not a big issue. Absolute frequency accuracy is not really important either,* the tolerances are broad enough that inexpensive crystals work fine. Some applications will use a packaged oscillator, others will use a crystal tied to a gate oscillator. In the latter case swapping a crystal without making the necessary circuit adjustments will certainly not work.

Don't expect either to have any sonic benefit, or any significant or detectable impact on performance. All the clocks connected to them will be completely asynchronous to any audio clock. The one case where there was an issue I encountered was a Via single board computer. However the audio clock/sample rate was 3% low so they could derive it from an internal clock. It did not help anything and no dac I had could lock to it.

Also for both this and for any audio application using a high speed driver (74AC or potato) you can get lower phase noise at the expense of turning your project into a powerful transmitter with a clean reference (NIST already does that with the WWV transmitters), not what you want in the presence of sensitive analog circuits. The cleanest clock drive is a clipped sine wave but that's not exactly want the CMOS circuit want to see.

This stuff is never easy.

There are so many questions to be resolved before any thought of the clock jitter being an aspect.
1) the mobo has a clock modulator to get through FCC testing. It doesn't actually reduce the RFI just spreads it out so the receiver doesn't see it as much. Essentially a jitter modulator/creator. Its everything you don't want for audio.
2) increased EMI from faster edges is often responsible for a "more incisive high end" which is really an artifact.

If you start with a Soekris or Alix board and follow the efforts to make it a low jitter NTP clock source https://www.febo.com/pages/soekris/ you may get positive results. i don't think a conventional motherboard would ever get there. And this would not be a quick project. I do have a couple of the Soekris net4501's i have retired. However for audio its not so simple.

A properly controlled experiment would be really difficult. I think Peter's last remark in the thread mirrors my feelings, neutral but skeptical.

Personally I suggest what I did in the Auraliti L1000- make the whole player in an EMI tight enclosure with the various subsystems well isolated from each other and the EMI well contained so it won't get out.
__________________
Demian Martin
Product Design Services"


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> *how to build ultimate PC audiophile streamer:*
> 
> ...no mention of: "ocxo clock, LPSU, fanless case/chassis"! ...On the contrary, it actually extols the virtues of using fans!!
> Streamer Part 2.htm
> ...


Well, the article talks about building an av streamer not an audiophile streamer. Playing blue-ray videos? Anyway, that's not the point. The point is he has a no fan copper cooler on its own. I suppose this will be spouting hot air into the case. Thats where the fans come in I think to remove the hot air. The fanless case like hd-plex or streacom has heat pipes that takes the heat out to the aluminium case. That's while no fans at all. Works well for me.


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> The point is he has a no fan copper cooler on its own, I suppose this will be *spouting hot air into the case.* That's where the fans come in I think to remove the hot air.



Good point!! 



xiamen said:


> The fanless case like hd-plex or streacom has heat pipes that takes the heat out to the aluminium case.



Yes, I know.  I presume there is no significant heat left trapped inside these fanless cases?


----------



## Paul Staples (Jul 9, 2018)

...at the risk of peer derision, I think this thread has transmuted from the LKS 004 to one concerning media transport solutions; e.g. transport fanless cases, transport/i2s ocxo clocks, transport LPSU, transport mainboard ocxo clock, transport CPU/memory/SSD/HDD requirement, etc. Anyone agree? So, I am going to start a new thread regarding PC transport and I hope you will all join me there soon? B.T.W. please keep posting here regarding the LKS 004 and it's future development. Thanks to everyone so far for their personal opinions, thoughts and advice! Long may it continue 'here' for the LKS 004 (chord dave 'beater')   ...China can produce top quality goods at a superior price point compared to Europe & the USA!

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-big-big-pc-transport-thread.883782/


----------



## Topnikko

Is anyone here familiar with the NAD M51? I've been living with this DAC for many years now but have the upgrade fever. Would the LKS 004 be a decent upgrade over the M51? Does the LKS 004 decode MQA?


----------



## natemact (Jul 9, 2018)

In the time it took you to write that you could've found out your MQA question 

Honestly, Why do SO MANY refuse to open up another tab on the exact same internet that brought them to HF and find out their typically easy to find answers instantly on their own?? I just smh and then have no choice but to write something like this. I realize you need to learn the ropes around here so think of this more like preventative maintenance. Just please don't rely on the community to be your Google once you get acquainted around here.

I've only spent time with the M51 so can't give you an A/B comparison but from listening to M51 and reading about 004 I can confidently say the 004 has it beat. Why can I say this? Because the M51 is long in the tooth now and there is a long list of dacs I'd take over it currently. If you want to stick with Chi-Fi you can spend around $1K and better the M51 now. Audio-gd D-77 is one of the best examples of $1K if D/S chip based a must...............but I have a sneaking suspicion that neither of these dacs will be on your short list because you want MQA   You can find a list of MQA partners at http://www.mqa.co.uk/

Enjoy your time here. Contrary to your first response received, we're actually very nice


----------



## Topnikko

I appreciate the response. I don't need to stick with Chi-Fi...I'm open to any DAC that will give me the most bang for the buck! If you're so inclined please feel free to throw out some other options. FYI, the DAC upgrade was precipitated by an upgrade to my amplification. I'm moving up from the Plinius SA-103 to the new Plinius RA-300.


----------



## natemact

Topnikko said:


> I appreciate the response. I don't need to stick with Chi-Fi...I'm open to any DAC that will give me the most bang for the buck! If you're so inclined please feel free to throw out some other options. FYI, the DAC upgrade was precipitated by an upgrade to my amplification. I'm moving up from the Plinius SA-103 to the new Plinius RA-300.


We used to be a Plinius dealer. I always loved the SA-103. The RA-300 must be quite special! My advice is to start a new thread. Outline your musical preferences, preferred sound signature, ancillary gear and what you want to achieve with the upgrade. Make sure to include what matters most to you as in MQA or not, DSD, D/S, FPGA or R2R, XLR or RCA, try to think of everything so folks don't have to go back and forth with you. Like choosing any component it really comes down process of elimination as there's just too many choices today. So whittle the list down and then try to audition.


----------



## Paul Staples (Jul 10, 2018)

Topnikko said:


> Is anyone here familiar with the NAD M51? I've been living with this DAC for many years now but have the upgrade fever. Would the LKS 004 be a decent upgrade over the M51? Does the LKS 004 decode MQA?



the lks004 is far superior to the ancient M51. Don't hesitate to upgrade. The LKS004 is at least as good as the Chord Dave @ £8000. I recently contacted a hi fi specialist and had a trial of a
dCS Vivaldi DAC @ £23,700 for 14 days at home with my own system and I could not detect that the dCS was worth an extra £22.700. I think you are paying for the name only! And the fact that you can afford to waste that amount of money (bragging!) - when so many people in this world are starving to death! If I ever won a large amount of money on lotteries I wouldn't be buying dCS etc. just for the sake of it. I like biggest bang for the buck and that appears to be (@ the outside) £2000 in every single department. After that you are just 'fiddling' and becoming 'anal' IMHO! (i.e. diminishing returns). GET THE MOST FOR YOUR INVESTMENT/MONEY AND NO MORE! No need to go over board.   ...this dCS stuff is really for those who unfortunately have more money than brains.


----------



## Topnikko

Paul Staples said:


> the lks004 is far superior to the ancient M51. Don't hesitate to upgrade. The LKS004 is at least as good as the Chord Dave @ £8000. I recently contacted a hi fi specialist and had a trial of a
> dCS Vivaldi DAC @ £23,700 for 14 days at home with my own system and I could not detect that the dCS was worth an extra £22.700. I think you are paying for the name only! And the fact that you can afford to waste that amount of money (bragging!) - when so many people in this world are starving to death! If I ever won a large amount of money on lotteries I wouldn't be buying dCS etc. just for the sake of it. I like biggest bang for the buck and that appears to be (@ the outside) £2000 in every single department. After that you are just 'fiddling' and becoming 'anal' IMHO! (i.e. diminishing returns). GET THE MOST FOR YOUR INVESTMENT/MONEY AND NO MORE! No need to go over board.   ...this dCS stuff is really for those who unfortunately have more money than brains.


Thank you so much, Paul. My source is a NAD M50 digital streamer capable of playing the Tidal app along with MQA. Would you forgo MQA and still go with the LKS? I'm also wondering about the connection between the two devices. I'm currently using AES/EBU between the M50 & M51. Is this as good as coax or BNC? On a side note, I can't believe how well constructed the LKS004 appears to be, even in comparison to the M51. Both the casework and the internals look to be top notch.


----------



## Paul Staples (Jul 10, 2018)

Topnikko said:


> Thank you so much, Paul. My source is a NAD M50 digital streamer capable of playing the Tidal app along with MQA. Would you forgo MQA and still go with the LKS? I'm also wondering about the connection between the two devices. I'm currently using AES/EBU between the M50 & M51. Is this as good as coax or BNC? On a side note, I can't believe how well constructed the LKS004 appears to be, even in comparison to the M51. Both the casework and the internals look to be top notch.


I would forgo MQA. I would say that there isn't a lot to choose between AES and BNC coax (AES cards are usually expensive!). The 004 is built like a tank! The 004 has AES B.T.W.


----------



## littlexx26

Paul Staples said:


> the lks004 is far superior to the ancient M51. Don't hesitate to upgrade. The LKS004 is at least as good as the Chord Dave @ £8000. I recently contacted a hi fi specialist and had a trial of a
> dCS Vivaldi DAC @ £23,700 for 14 days at home with my own system and I could not detect that the dCS was worth an extra £22.700. I think you are paying for the name only! And the fact that you can afford to waste that amount of money (bragging!) - when so many people in this world are starving to death! If I ever won a large amount of money on lotteries I wouldn't be buying dCS etc. just for the sake of it. I like biggest bang for the buck and that appears to be (@ the outside) £2000 in every single department. After that you are just 'fiddling' and becoming 'anal' IMHO! (i.e. diminishing returns). GET THE MOST FOR YOUR INVESTMENT/MONEY AND NO MORE! No need to go over board.   ...this dCS stuff is really for those who unfortunately have more money than brains.


how much the Vivaldi worths then?


----------



## Paul Staples

littlexx26 said:


> how much the Vivaldi worths then?



listen to one and make up your own mind


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Awaiting Pinkfaun !!!



Hi again....
Hope you're doing OK mate?
Just to clarify   ...would you say that as long as the i2s ocxo clock is used at the end of the output chain (to the DAC) there is no need to put ocxo clocks on the mainboard as well? Have you changed the clock to ocxo on the LKS 004?
Cheers!


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> Hi again....
> Hope you're doing OK mate?
> Just to clarify   ...would you say that as long as the i2s ocxo clock is used at the end of the output chain (to the DAC) there is no need to put ocxo clocks on the mainboard as well? Have you changed the clock to ocxo on the LKS 004?
> Cheers!



Yes, I got new addition to my hi-fi family 

Actually, the clock for the main board will be effecting the digital timing and communications as in pulling and reading data from storage, the clock on the i2s board is effecting the decoding of the data intertwined with the algorithm to output I2S signals.  This is why you would want to go for higher end and more expensive enthusiast motherboard.  To precisely overclocking a system and keep it stable, the clocking system on these motherboards also have to be very precise.  Noises that we measure and considering bad is also a form of inaccuracy to the most sensitive system for over clocking as well.  You can always send your Motherboard to Pinkfaun for clock modifications.  I think somebody mentioned that it would cost $1000 a clock swap, and you can swap out 2 of it.  Yes, everything will affect sound quality

IMO, the interface between NVME and CPU to I2S are already precise enough, that swapping out the clocks will just rather be an expensive niche.  It really would affect the sound just like anything else, but it is in the territory where I don’t want to set foot on 

I have not changed the clock on lks004.  Pulsar has no plan for the 100.Mhz anymore, and I would need to tinker with the powersupply somebit as well.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Yes, I got new addition to my hi-fi family
> 
> Actually, the clock for the main board will be effecting the digital timing and communications as in pulling and reading data from storage, the clock on the i2s board is effecting the decoding of the data intertwined with the algorithm to output I2S signals.  This is why you would want to go for higher end and more expensive enthusiast motherboard.  To precisely overclocking a system and keep it stable, the clocking system on these motherboards also have to be very precise.  Noises that we measure and considering bad is also a form of inaccuracy to the most sensitive system for over clocking as well.  You can always send your Motherboard to Pinkfaun for clock modifications.  I think somebody mentioned that it would cost $1000 a clock swap, and you can swap out 2 of it.  Yes, everything will affect sound quality
> 
> ...



...do you have an example of a "higher end and more expensive enthusiast motherboard"? any links? any URL's please?

So, have you removed the ocxo clock from the i2s output board, or does it still work well enough with your standard/unmodified 'NVMe & CPU & mobo'?

Cheers for your last informative post - thank you!


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> ...do you have an example of a "higher end and more expensive enthusiast motherboard"? any links? any URL's please?
> 
> So, have you removed the ocxo clock from the i2s output board, or does it still work well enough with your standard/unmodified 'NVMe & CPU & mobo'?
> 
> Cheers for your last informative post - thank you!



Gamer boards that are known to overclock very well for heavily influenced live gaming 

Yes, ocxo still work well, and I have no interest to pull it out to test the TXCO built in


----------



## Paul Staples

got this reply from Jinbo at last! (LKS)

"Hi,
Sorry for too late reply.
I think OCXO SC-Cut type clock would show greater accuracy and detail but can be expensive.
BR
Jinbo"


----------



## Whitigir (Jul 24, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> got this reply from Jinbo at last! (LKS)
> 
> "Hi,
> Sorry for too late reply.
> ...



Ofcourse it does, technically it accuracy is 10X times better than those found in LKS004.  Why would I upgrade to it on Pinkfaun ? Or wanting to upgrade on LKS-004 ? The problem is that in order to squeeze out everything from the clocks, you need a superbly precise and low noise power supply design.  Again, every noises or fluctuations that we deemed to have affect the sound performances will shown up as technical errors to the system.  Again, this is the reason why you want gamer motherboard which allows stability on overclocking ( not those slow and sloppy system as other places mentions ) 

The Pinkfaun OCXO Clock is only $60 or so, but Pinkfaun designed a good and measured powersupply for it to be a module upgradable, but it is priced at $600 or so.  It is still cheaper than some of those MSB clocking system for sure


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Ofcourse it does, technically it accuracy is 10X times better than those found in LKS004.  Why would I upgrade to it on Pinkfaun ? Or wanting to upgrade on LKS-004 ? The problem is that in order to squeeze out everything from the clocks, you need a superbly precise and low noise power supply design.  Again, every noises or fluctuations that we deemed to have affect the sound performances will shown up as technical errors to the system.  Again, this is the reason why you want gamer motherboard which allows stability on overclocking ( not those slow and sloppy system as other places mentions )
> 
> The Pinkfaun OCXO Clock is only $60 or so, but Pinkfaun designed a good and measured powersupply for it to be a module upgradable, but it is priced at $600 or so.  It is still cheaper than some of those MSB clocking system for sure



what a shame I can't get hold of their circuit diagram and make one myself for less than $600 (LOL).


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> what a shame I can't get hold of their circuit diagram and make one myself for less than $600 (LOL).


If you are an engineer, you can look at the clock data sheet, and design something around it  or even better


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Awaiting Pinkfaun !!!



...erm???   ...how do I get those heat tubes over the top of the mobo heatsink? CPU is too low for the heat pipes to reach over the top of the heat sink? hope you can oblige me please?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> ...erm???   ...how do I get those heat tubes over the top of the mobo heatsink? CPU is too low for the heat pipes to reach over the top of the heat sink? hope you can oblige me please?


Buy a raiser my friend.  You are building the system I built ? Drop me a pm, I can help you over text


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> ...erm???   ...how do I get those heat tubes over the top of the mobo heatsink? CPU is too low for the heat pipes to reach over the top of the heat sink? hope you can oblige me please?


I don't think you can do that (or at least very difficult) in your current configuration. You might do the next best thing (and quite inexpensive option) by replacing your CPU fan with a liquid cooling one https://www.fabathome.org/best-liquid-cpu-cooler/.


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> I don't think you can do that (or at least very difficult) in your current configuration. You might do the next best thing (and quite inexpensive option) by replacing your CPU fan with a liquid cooling one https://www.fabathome.org/best-liquid-cpu-cooler/.


It has nothing to do with the cpu cooler, as it's a fanless passive case.


----------



## Whitigir (Jul 26, 2018)

Alright.  I am doing live-conversion of PCM into DSD512 using Foobar on LKS-004 and it is awesome.  The last time I tested it with Jriver, the performances gained about 10%, which wasn’t much at all.  It turned out that Jriver was bad, and I got Foobar working now.  Awesome!  Also as I learned that Jitters tolerances doesn’t really matter for DSD streaming, so bandwidth can be 15 and I am happy with what it is.

Damn, I didn’t know Foobar was this good.  Also I love the filter IIR47K the best, cleanest music with less ringing than the rest


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Alright.  I am doing live-conversion of PCM into DSD512 using Foobar on LKS-004 and it is awesome.  The last time I tested it with Jriver, the performances gained about 10%, which wasn’t much at all.  It turned out that Jriver was bad, and I got Foobar working now.  Awesome!  Also as I learned that Jitters tolerances doesn’t really matter for DSD streaming, so bandwidth can be 15 and I am happy with what it is.
> 
> Damn, I didn’t know Foobar was this good.  Also I love the filter IIR47K the best, cleanest music with less ringing than the rest



I've always used foobar! I'll have to try that filter and see what it sounds like?

finally got the power useage meter!

PC Wattage:

Boot: 52w MAX.
Idle: 29w normal/spike 32-38w
Low use: 38w normal/spike 41w (music playback)
High use: ? (I don't 'rip', 'burn' or 'convert' files on this machine). Even after booting all of windows built-in apps + my music files running, power consumption did not exceed 41w. The only independent app. I have on this machine is "Crap Cleaner". I do not use it for any type of office products, games, HD motion movies, 3D, CAD etc. i.e. only music playback on CD and memory stick.


----------



## Paul Staples

...does the LKS004 i2s input use it's mobo clock, or is that clock for USB only?


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> ...does the LKS004 i2s input use it's mobo clock, or is that clock for USB only?


LKS004 is an async DAC and does not rely on any PC clock, whether it be on the PCIE card, let alone motherboard. Although there is a "theory" (https://jcat.eu/use-usb-audio-card/) that PC clock does matter. Personally, I won't go to upgrading clock on the motherboard itself. I only know of Pick Faun doing that these days. Paul Pang used to do it but not anymore (apparently it caused computer operation issues with certain OS and applications). Thoughts on computer audio changes over time. Here are the links from Baetis website (their music servers cost up to $15,000). One is from 2014 https://www.baetisaudio.com/New_Directions_in_Audiophile_Computers.pdf and the other current https://www.baetisaudio.com/downloads/What_makes_Baetis_media_servers_special_v3.2.pdf. You can read the change in thinking yourself. 

Personally, I did a couple of things more last couple of weeks. Bought a second hand Paul Pang V4 OCXO usb card with an isolator cage for the clock. Still trying this out, initial impression is some subtle improvement from the TCXO clock, but nothing earth shattering. As I have a Z370 motherboard with 8th generation Intel CPU, I also give the intel optane memory a shot. The new RST 16 allows for accelerating secondary SATA based HDD. I got a 32GB optane memory module and use it to accelerate an 8TB HDD connecting using external esata. On diskmark, I am getting 1400MB/sec read compared to what used to be only 160MB/sec. Write time is less dramatic, but still 2x from 150MB/sec to 300MB/sec. Does that make any difference to the sound, again not really obvious.


----------



## Whitigir

The clock that need upgrading is the one inside the lks004


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Alright.  I am doing live-conversion of PCM into DSD512 using Foobar on LKS-004 and it is awesome.  The last time I tested it with Jriver, the performances gained about 10%, which wasn’t much at all.  It turned out that Jriver was bad, and I got Foobar working now.  Awesome!  Also as I learned that Jitters tolerances doesn’t really matter for DSD streaming, so bandwidth can be 15 and I am happy with what it is.
> 
> Damn, I didn’t know Foobar was this good.  Also I love the filter IIR47K the best, cleanest music with less ringing than the rest





Whitigir said:


> The clock that need upgrading is the one inside the lks004



at DSD512, which dac better? R2R or 004?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> at DSD512, which dac better? R2R or 004?



R2r7 atm is using amanero384 just similar to lks004.  However, there are weird issues on r2r7 to playback DSD512.  I will need to figure it out.

ATM, DSD256 has nothing over r2r7 PCM, and 004 plays DSD512 wonderfully


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> R2r7 atm is using amanero384 just similar to lks004.  However, there are weird issues on r2r7 to playback DSD512.  I will need to figure it out.
> 
> ATM, DSD256 has nothing over r2r7 PCM, and 004 plays DSD512 wonderfully



if you find foobar's DSD512 wonderful. you should try hqplayer. it has different types of algorithms


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> if you find foobar's DSD512 wonderful. you should try hqplayer. it has different types of algorithms


I can’t work things out in hqplayer  too complicated.  Can you share the setting ?


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> I can’t work things out in hqplayer  too complicated.  Can you share the setting ?


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> LKS004 is an async DAC and does not rely on any PC clock, whether it be on the PCIE card, let alone motherboard. Although there is a "theory" (https://jcat.eu/use-usb-audio-card/) that PC clock does matter. Personally, I won't go to upgrading clock on the motherboard itself. I only know of Pick Faun doing that these days. Paul Pang used to do it but not anymore (apparently it caused computer operation issues with certain OS and applications). Thoughts on computer audio changes over time. Here are the links from Baetis website (their music servers cost up to $15,000). One is from 2014 https://www.baetisaudio.com/New_Directions_in_Audiophile_Computers.pdf and the other current https://www.baetisaudio.com/downloads/What_makes_Baetis_media_servers_special_v3.2.pdf. You can read the change in thinking yourself.
> 
> Personally, I did a couple of things more last couple of weeks. Bought a second hand Paul Pang V4 OCXO usb card with an isolator cage for the clock. Still trying this out, initial impression is some subtle improvement from the TCXO clock, but nothing earth shattering. As I have a Z370 motherboard with 8th generation Intel CPU, I also give the intel optane memory a shot. The new RST 16 allows for accelerating secondary SATA based HDD. I got a 32GB optane memory module and use it to accelerate an 8TB HDD connecting using external esata. On diskmark, I am getting 1400MB/sec read compared to what used to be only 160MB/sec. Write time is less dramatic, but still 2x from 150MB/sec to 300MB/sec. Does that make any difference to the sound, again not really obvious.



Hey, thanks man for your time & trouble! It's all very much worth thinking about! _"LKS004 is an async DAC and does not rely on any PC clock", "initial impression is some subtle improvement from the TCXO clock, but nothing earth shattering"._ Diminishing refurns for the buck? (smallest bang for the buck - LOL!).


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> The clock that need upgrading is the one inside the lks004


yes!
cheers!


----------



## Paul Staples

littlexx26 said:


> at DSD512, which dac better? R2R or 004?


?


----------



## Paul Staples

littlexx26 said:


> if you find foobar's DSD512 wonderful. you should try hqplayer. it has different types of algorithms


Oh! WOW!


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> if you find foobar's DSD512 wonderful. you should try hqplayer. it has different types of algorithms


So I assume in your opinion, HQPlayer is better than Foobar is better than Jriver. Would you be able to give us your take how it is better?


----------



## littlexx26

xiamen said:


> So I assume in your opinion, HQPlayer is better than Foobar is better than Jriver. Would you be able to give us your take how it is better?


There are total 21 oversampling algorithms and 8 modulators in HQPlayer. Unfortunately my old 3940xm is not fast enough to try them all as some algorithms require very high processing power and HQPlayer does not have a function that can write a oversampling file. Everything is on the fly. However the algorithms I tried are very realistic and relax


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> There are total 21 oversampling algorithms and 8 modulators in HQPlayer. Unfortunately my old 3940xm is not fast enough to try them all as some algorithms require very high processing power and HQPlayer does not have a function that can write a oversampling file. Everything is on the fly. However the algorithms I tried are very realistic and relax


Should direct sdm be enabled?


----------



## littlexx26 (Jul 31, 2018)

xiamen said:


> Should direct sdm be enabled?


I did not check this box. if you check the box, it will be no upsampling. since it is direct


----------



## Whitigir

I will try HQplayer out again.  Even Foobar wa great but it can not be compared to my Offline DSD512 conversions.  I am honestly thinking of buying huge M2 NVMe storage for it


----------



## cmcgarry

Whitigir said:


> I will try HQplayer out again.  Even Foobar wa great but it can not be compared to my Offline DSD512 conversions.  I am honestly thinking of buying huge M2 NVMe storage for it



What software do you use to do offline conversions to DSD512? I've been looking for something that could do this for a while.


----------



## Waqar

gruvytune said:


> Hi audiophile friends.
> I came across this threat and i know it is a bit old.  But thought I'd respond in case anyone is looking for a new DAC.  I bought sight unseen after discussing the feedback with a few others.  My current system is highly resolving after years of cobbling together what I consider a reference system now:
> Rega Planar 5 w Crown Jewel mc cartridge
> Laptop feeding via USB mostly lossless FLAC and SACD iso and DSD files (I have over 3 TB of data in a mirrored array - please do this, I lost my entire collection at one time as I procrastinated to get a backup drive)
> ...


 Thanks for the tip about getting it directly from them.


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 1, 2018)

Alright! For anyone having problems with DSD512 with weird sounds after the stop or so.  You need to install DSD512 44x 48x using OEM tool from Amanero.  It is also the newest firmware for Amanero

Use this post to know how to upgrade your Amanero

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...es-double-impact.840938/page-22#post-13762204

CPLD is 1080

*CPU flash needed to be DSD512 44x 48x, and you need to scroll down to opt for it 

 *


----------



## jazzk

hey guys i need a little help from you very experienced head fiers with my 004   i've had my dac for 2 weeks now    i mainly listen to my music thru my hp laptop running itunes into a gustard h20 or  my ecp beezer torpedo amp into my hd800 and some other cans.  i first ran my onkyo ipod dock coax into the 004 no problem played fine sounded great, screen read coax 44.1.  when i plugged my usb in from computer screen read    usb unlock      played but i think something is not quite rite.  shoudn't screen read usb 44.1 or 192 like it did on my antelope zodiac plus DAC? Also could use recommendation on filter.  jinbo said that the usb was updated version.  following thread about 004 u guys seem way smarter about computer music than i will ever comprehend with your dsd 512 etc etc  can some one help me optimize my dac with my limited computer skills and my basic itunes setup thanks for any help u can give


----------



## xiamen

Sounds as though your dpll is not quite right. Use the remote dpll to change the BW. Start at BW01 and increase until you get a lock.


----------



## Whitigir

Or it could be that he didn’t configure the sound output profiles


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Alright! For anyone having problems with DSD512 with weird sounds after the stop or so.  You need to install DSD512 44x 48x using OEM tool from Amanero.  It is also the newest firmware for Amanero
> 
> Use this post to know how to upgrade your Amanero
> 
> ...


On the same note, Singxer has a new version of their windows driver (https://download.shenzhenaudio.com/Singxer/) from July 24th. Not sure if it's the new version, or my PPV OCXO driver or the optane memory module more burnt in, the sound has gone up to another level that I didn't know existed. But judging Manafort spent 2.2 million (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...-to-inflate-income/ar-BBLqac0?ocid=spartandhp) on his entertainment system, there may be many more levels to go.


----------



## jazzk

thanks xiaman i will try bw and see if i can get lock     i dont think i configured anything  i just plugged in usb from lks to computer hit usb for source and music played  albeit screens says unlock but there is music     sound from coax in from ipod dock is wonderful    not so much for usb  i will let u know after i get a chance to play with tonite    thanks for the tip!!!!!!


----------



## Whitigir

jazzk said:


> thanks xiaman i will try bw and see if i can get lock     i dont think i configured anything  i just plugged in usb from lks to computer hit usb for source and music played  albeit screens says unlock but there is music     sound from coax in from ipod dock is wonderful    not so much for usb  i will let u know after i get a chance to play with tonite    thanks for the tip!!!!!!



You need to go to sound output on windows and configure it output into Amanero384.  You need to install windows driver for lks004 too


----------



## gruvytune

Whitigir said:


> Alright! For anyone having problems with DSD512 with weird sounds after the stop or so.  You need to install DSD512 44x 48x using OEM tool from Amanero.  It is also the newest firmware for Amanero
> 
> Use this post to know how to upgrade your Amanero
> 
> ...




when did they release a new set of firmware?


----------



## Whitigir

No clues about that


----------



## bibo01

gruvytune said:


> when did they release a new set of firmware?


2004BE firmware was released by Amanero at the beginning of June.


----------



## Whitigir

bibo01 said:


> 2004BE firmware was released by Amanero at the beginning of June.


Where can I download this 2004Be plz


----------



## jazzk

Thanks whitigir. I believe the dac showed up as combo384. Will go to amanero and download driver.  Changing bw did not unlock.  Will let u know thanx for ur help


----------



## bibo01

Whitigir said:


> Where can I download this 2004Be plz


From Amanero site, but you need to use oemtool with the procedure outlined a few posts before.
I believe 2004BE is for Linux.


----------



## jazzk

Thanks whitiger.  Finally got iTunes running properly thru hp to 004   What a difference!!!!!!!!  Running pcm384. Bw01. Filter anodized.  Still not sure if this is best setting but sounds way better than unlock!  Any suggestions on settings would be greatly appreciated.  I know iTunes will run max 192. Should I adjust 004 to that or just leave at 384?


----------



## gruvytune

bibo01 said:


> 2004BE firmware was released by Amanero at the beginning of June.



I don't see it listed as 2004BE on the website.  So you see it there?


----------



## gruvytune

bibo01 said:


> From Amanero site, but you need to use oemtool with the procedure outlined a few posts before.
> I believe 2004BE is for Linux.




Oh. I'm in window 10. 
I don't think there is anything new since last year?


----------



## 347strokin

Hey guys!  I'm brand new to your site.  Thanks for having me.  Tons of great info here.

I just purchased the LKS MH DA004 based almost exclusively on this thread.  I also purchased an Auralic Aries Mini for streaming duties.  My previous DAC was a Chord 2Qute which has treated me very well but I'm expecting a whole different sonic signature with the LKS.

If I may ask, what input is preferred to the LKS DAC?  (USB or co-ax)

Thanks again.


----------



## Paul Staples

347strokin said:


> Hey guys!  I'm brand new to your site.  Thanks for having me.  Tons of great info here.
> 
> I just purchased the LKS MH DA004 based almost exclusively on this thread.  I also purchased an Auralic Aries Mini for streaming duties.  My previous DAC was a Chord 2Qute which has treated me very well but I'm expecting a whole different sonic signature with the LKS.
> 
> ...


I prefer i2s: http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/pinkfaun_i2s_bridge_e.html

next best is coax
hate USB


----------



## 347strokin

Thanks Paul.  The Pink Faun in meant for computer streaming it looks like? 

I'm not going to lie, I'm excited and nervous about making the switch from a Chord 2Qute.  She's treated me good and did no wrong in my system.  

I have heard conflicting reviews on the LKS 004.  Some say it's dry/analytical, some say it's liquid and analog.

Compared to the 2Qute, I'm expecting more detail, more air and transparency as well as a larger soundstage.  But this is of course only based on what I've researched. 

I also really like the fact there are filter settings to dial it in.


----------



## 347strokin

Paul Staples said:


> I prefer i2s: http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/pinkfaun_i2s_bridge_e.html
> 
> next best is coax
> hate USB


----------



## Paul Staples

347strokin said:


> Thanks Paul.  The Pink Faun in meant for computer streaming it looks like?
> 
> I'm not going to lie, I'm excited and nervous about making the switch from a Chord 2Qute.  She's treated me good and did no wrong in my system.
> 
> ...


you mirror many of my thoughts on the LKS!


----------



## littlexx26

Just wonder if anyone tried connecting ground box to the dac?


----------



## Paul Staples

littlexx26 said:


> Just wonder if anyone tried connecting ground box to the dac?


what is ground box?


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> Just wonder if anyone tried connecting ground box to the dac?


I used the ART cleanbox2 on my electrical wirings but not connecting to the dac. I used it in between my av receiver and the amplifier with the intention to eliminate any hum noises from power strip cables . For the dac, I prefer direct pure silver cable to the amplifier.


----------



## Whitigir

I use Furman IT15 Ref...is it a ground box ? Or shall I literally use a box that connect to ground


----------



## littlexx26

I am talking about this


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> I am talking about this


No. Had not tried that. Sounds like a wooden box with some magic soil inside. Pretty expensive to get one and try it out. I'm thinking the whole thing is about connecting the audio equipment to earth right? I might try a DIY on this. Get a wooden box. Go to the garden, get some soil to fill it up. Punch a few nails into the box. Use speaker cables to clamp outputs from DAC to the nails.


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> No. Had not tried that. Sounds like a wooden box with some magic soil inside. Pretty expensive to get one and try it out. I'm thinking the whole thing is about connecting the audio equipment to earth right? I might try a DIY on this. Get a wooden box. Go to the garden, get some soil to fill it up. Punch a few nails into the box. Use speaker cables to clamp outputs from DAC to the nails.


Fill the box with corpse and bone, and the dirt from a graveyard.  It sounds better that way


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Fill the box with corpse and bone, and the dirt from a graveyard.  It sounds better that way


Yes. That will make it dead quiet


----------



## Whitigir (Aug 15, 2018)

Woa, trying out HQPlayer! Thanks @littlexx26 for the configuration picture.  I am playing it back now.  Awesome ! Different filters do different things ! Crazily awesome.

My favorite now is Poly Sinc Shrt mp 2s

Now I need to figure out this library thing X_X


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Woa, trying out HQPlayer! Thanks @littlexx26 for the configuration picture.  I am playing it back now.  Awesome ! Different filters do different things ! Crazily awesome.
> 
> My favorite now is Poly Sinc Shrt mp 2s
> 
> Now I need to figure out this library thing X_X


You can actually use Jriver library management and HQplayer for playback. Check out https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...r-to-hqplayer-a-very-limited-solution/?page=8. Works for me, not a bad option if you like HQPlayer playback but not its ui or library management (and you dont want to pay for Roon as well). Somehow, I never get that excited about HQPlayer even though technically it should be  lot better than jriver.


----------



## ptolemy2k6

I was curious... if you're not using i2s connection with dac, do you need to worry about dip switches position?


----------



## xiamen

ptolemy2k6 said:


> I was curious... if you're not using i2s connection with dac, do you need to worry about dip switches position?


There are no dip switches on the LKS004. Some external usb/i2s bridges like the Singxer SU-1 will have dip switches.


----------



## 347strokin (Aug 16, 2018)

Mixed feelings on the LKS 004 this far. I bought it second hand, this is the newest version with the upgraded USB board and all of the cooling upgrades etc done.

Anyways, two days and running it all day with around 6 hours of critical listening. (Keep in mind this DAC is broke in) 

Compared to my Chord 2 Qute which I've been running very happily for the last two years, here's my comparisons so far:

The LKS 004 mid range/voice frequencies are quite a bit more recessed and not as forward. This has the illusion of making the soundstage deeper and possibly more transparent sounding. But I feel myself needing to turn it up to hear the voices over the instruments. It does have tons of detail and very clean sound. Imaging is superb, soundstage width seems on par with the 2Qute. There is no harshness or sibilance on the highest registers. Very airy sounding. 

Ultimately for me in my system though, it is now lacking some meat on the bones in the mid range and bass range. I will give it more time and I will be swapping my Chord DAC back in to compare again. For now, the 2Qute has a lot more punch and musicality behind it, and the treble is no slouch either. It also has a more forward sound which seems to work better in my system.

For reference I am running pure silver throughout all of my interconnects.  I'm running an Allo Digione streamer through BNC cable to the LKS 004, then to a Linear Tube Audio MZ2 pre amp, to a Line Magnetic 508, both units running upgraded tubes. This is running Audionote AN-E LX HE speakers.

I may try to introduce some copper interconnect back into the mix and see if I can get a nice balance between details/transparency and some meat on the bones in the mids/bass area. I also haven't tried the USB connection but I do have a nice copper based cable that may help matters out.

These are just preliminary comparisons and I'll keep them coming as I swap out gear. The LKS is still a beautiful sounding DAC and the build quality and physical weight is beyond comparison!


----------



## Whitigir

I really dislike forward vocal too much lol....but it usually is more forward with Non over sampling such as S-Master and or Chord for sure


----------



## ptolemy2k6

xiamen said:


> There are no dip switches on the LKS004. Some external usb/i2s bridges like the Singxer SU-1 will have dip switches.



yes, i knew that,  LOL. my issue was a weird one... it turned out that usb cable wasn't making a good connection and you can't really see dac otherwise. i tried on other dac that's just bus powered and saw no lights.... moved usb connection a bit and it turned on. once i got that, it worked perfectly.

side q though: singxer su-1 to lks004, normal hdmi cable works as long as dip switches set right? or do i need a special one? i have a flexible one that's 5" but it doesn't seem to work. ill double check dip switches tomorrow, but for now, i was curious if I am missing something?


----------



## Whitigir

Just dip switches and normal hdmi cable


----------



## xiamen

ptolemy2k6 said:


> yes, i knew that,  LOL. my issue was a weird one... it turned out that usb cable wasn't making a good connection and you can't really see dac otherwise. i tried on other dac that's just bus powered and saw no lights.... moved usb connection a bit and it turned on. once i got that, it worked perfectly.
> 
> side q though: singxer su-1 to lks004, normal hdmi cable works as long as dip switches set right? or do i need a special one? i have a flexible one that's 5" but it doesn't seem to work. ill double check dip switches tomorrow, but for now, i was curious if I am missing something?


The Singxer firmware should be 2.20 for the lks and not 2.22.


----------



## ptolemy2k6

xiamen said:


> The Singxer firmware should be 2.20 for the lks and not 2.22.




ty issue was my hdmi cable. it wasn't a normal one apparently. i liked it because it was a thinner/flexible, rather than usual stiff one...


----------



## Whitigir

HDMI are all under the same specifications.  It is the terminations of it configurations that differ from one to another.  Except all of the technicality aside.  Audio that transmit via I2S only use 6-8 signals line at max out of the 21 wires of an HDMI.  The DIP switch allow you to configure it correctly so you can use any HDMI cables just fine


----------



## Paul Staples

347strokin said:


> Mixed feelings on the LKS 004 this far. I bought it second hand, this is the newest version with the upgraded USB board and all of the cooling upgrades etc done.
> 
> Anyways, two days and running it all day with around 6 hours of critical listening. (Keep in mind this DAC is broke in)
> 
> ...



...don't forget other peoples opinions say that the 004 is as good as an £8000 dave. With lots of excellent parts and the only one to have the ESS latest ES9038pro flagship DAC,dual-core MONO scheme + a 100 MHz, Crystek, 575 clock, that is a good part. You would need to go to something like a Pulsar to make significant improvement to the '575'. + twin JFET field effect transistor input, + last pole 3A power tube output. Swiss Schute frozen version fuse. Furukawa FI03 gold-plated power outlet. Cardas rhodium-plated RCA audio output. Neutirk balanced output.

Please don't be too hasty as your ears and brain will attune to this device over time.Give it a few good months. As to the actually sound, rather than changing components and cables etc. have you thought of using good old: "bass/middle/treble" controls on (say) an amp? Or a graphic equalizer (hardware/software)? XXHE? Audiophile Optimizer? Fidelizer?

....enjoy your listening experiences!


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> HDMI are all under the same specifications.  It is the terminations of it configurations that differ from one to another.  Except all of the technicality aside.  Audio that transmit via I2S only use 6-8 signals line at max out of the 21 wires of an HDMI.  The DIP switch allow you to configure it correctly so you can use any HDMI cables just fine


Yes. I would care more about if the cable is shielded and terminated properly rather than if its thick or thin.


----------



## Whitigir

Lks004 is unsurpassed playing DSD512 natively or on the fly .  Now if I could fit in Xmos module to this device


----------



## littlexx26

What silver cable you are using? My 004 sounded thin in vocal. After I changed to Cerious Technologies Graphene Matrix IC, no more thinness.


----------



## Whitigir

I use large sizes DIY solid core silver wires.  I also love those Cardas wires too


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Lks004 is unsurpassed playing DSD512 natively or on the fly .  Now if I could fit in Xmos module to this device


Singxer SU-1 uses the latest Xmos.


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> Singxer SU-1 uses the latest Xmos.


It is the last gen U206.  The newest is double the power which is U216, and handle DSD1024 as well.


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> It is the last gen U206.  The newest is double the power which is U216, and handle DSD1024 as well.


Yes. Cant find any usb/i2s bridge using it yet. Must be pretty new.


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> Yes. Cant find any usb/i2s bridge using it yet. Must be pretty new.


DiyinHK has it, but you need to...DIY lol

Now, only if I have the schematic of lks004 i2S inputs, then I can terminate it correctly and route the power supply somewhere else


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> DiyinHK has it, but you need to...DIY lol
> 
> Now, only if I have the schematic of lks004 i2S inputs, then I can terminate it correctly and route the power supply somewhere else


I am thinking get a Singxer SU-1, and replace the Xmos 208 with the 216 in it....


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> I am thinking get a Singxer SU-1, and replace the Xmos 208 with the 216 in it....


How can you do that ?


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> How can you do that ?


Swap out the xu208 with the new xu216 in the Singxer? May be not .  I guess just wait for someone to come out with a ddc based on the Xmos xu216. Singxer SU-2?


----------



## Whitigir

They are different specs that will need totally new and revamped PCB LoL.  Yeah, whenever SU2 come to the surface


----------



## 347strokin

Paul Staples said:


> ...don't forget other peoples opinions say that the 004 is as good as an £8000 dave. With lots of excellent parts and the only one to have the ESS latest ES9038pro flagship DAC,dual-core MONO scheme + a 100 MHz, Crystek, 575 clock, that is a good part. You would need to go to something like a Pulsar to make significant improvement to the '575'. + twin JFET field effect transistor input, + last pole 3A power tube output. Swiss Schute frozen version fuse. Furukawa FI03 gold-plated power outlet. Cardas rhodium-plated RCA audio output. Neutirk balanced output.
> 
> Please don't be too hasty as your ears and brain will attune to this device over time.Give it a few good months. As to the actually sound, rather than changing components and cables etc. have you thought of using good old: "bass/middle/treble" controls on (say) an amp? Or a graphic equalizer (hardware/software)? XXHE? Audiophile Optimizer? Fidelizer?
> 
> ....enjoy your listening experiences!



OK I'm back! What a clusterfawk. 

Things are better. So I had recently picked up a Furutech silver cord with Furutech rhodium plated BNC on one end for the DAC and a Furutech rhodium plated coaxial on the other going to my Auralic Aries streamer (it doesn't have BNC) Wasn't performing well on either the LKS or the 2Qute. But surprisingly a coaxial connection to either DAC didn't sound right either. Just didn't sound the same as my previous set up. Shrunken soundstage, weak bass, something not right. In all fairness my other streamer (Allo Digione) was running a custom Takefiveaudio solid core silver BNC to BNC.  I was starting to think this cord is what was making the magic? But no, couldn't be. 

Anyways long story short, I completely disconnected all my wiring and put it all back. I'm now running a "lowly" Audioquest Cinnamon usb to both DACS and they are sounding terrific. 

After a lot more critical listening time, here are the major differences I'm detecting. 

As mentioned by another poster previously in this thread,  the LKS lacks some PRAT compared to the 2 Qute. Not as jumpy and lacks some meat on the bones, especially male voices and string plucks. Puts out less energy than the 2Qute in these aspects. 

But the LKS has a wider, deeper soudstage with more detail, but never etching. Very airy treble. The voices are definitely recessed a bit compared to the 2 Qute. It's a dryer, more analytical sound.

I'm not saying any of these characteristics are a pro or con, it all depends on system synergy. 

But I will say this, now that I've got my wiring gremlins figured out and it's back to it's previous fidelity, I'm really starting to warm up to the LKS. 

I also like the fact it has very high end parts and build quality. And I can change inputs with the remote! With the 2 Qute, I'd need to get up and click a button on the back. Not to mention this LKS is a sexy beast.


----------



## Whitigir

That is more like it.  The L.K.S. has very high quality IC and other related components


----------



## xiamen

347strokin said:


> OK I'm back! What a clusterfawk.
> 
> Things are better. So I had recently picked up a Furutech silver cord with Furutech rhodium plated BNC on one end for the DAC and a Furutech rhodium plated coaxial on the other going to my Auralic Aries streamer (it doesn't have BNC) Wasn't performing well on either the LKS or the 2Qute. But surprisingly a coaxial connection to either DAC didn't sound right either. Just didn't sound the same as my previous set up. Shrunken soundstage, weak bass, something not right. In all fairness my other streamer (Allo Digione) was running a custom Takefiveaudio solid core silver BNC to BNC.  I was starting to think this cord is what was making the magic? But no, couldn't be.
> 
> ...


I also have the Audioquest Cinnamon. In my experience, that was OK but not great. Had switched to the iFi Mercury 3.0 and that is an obvious improvement for me. It's just me though, so I can't promise that to others.


----------



## ptolemy2k6

this may work for people in the USA. i got this cable from adorama. it says it's 30cm but due to being coiled, it's very short and neat and a perfect fit.


----------



## 347strokin

Back again!  And I'm here to right my wrongs.  Read at your own peril.  

Current equipment:

Auralic Aries Mini streamer---->LKS 004 DAC---->Linear Tube Audio MZ2 pre amp (upgraded tubes)---->Line Magnetic 508 amplifier (upgraded tubes)---->Audio Note Kit 003 speakers (AN E/LX He specs).  I'm using all solid core silver interconnects, upgraded fuses, power cables and outlet etc.

My preferred genres are modern Folk/Americana, reggae, and some blues along with anything with strings.

I spent two full weeks and many hours A/B'ing the LKS 004 against my Chord 2Qute and I could not find any reason to keep the LKS.  I could not hear what the hype on this unit.  In my previous posts I was really reaching to give it any positives over my 2Qute.  Long story but that has changed dramatically.  Believe it or not, I already had the LKS 004 all sealed back in its box and back for sale on another audio site before I just had a nagging feeling to give it one more shot.  Keep in mind I tried different cables, inputs and sources in my previous comparisons. 

Lately I've been bad for changing more than one component/interconnect/power cables/outlet etc in my system at the same time before first hearing what each change has made.  I usually have no problem with this as I enjoy hearing my system change as a whole vs singling out every single change as an experiment.  (Mostly because I've done a pile of research beforehand and can reasonably expect if the synergy will be there or not)  If there is something in my system that isn't working, I will then start changing out components.  In all fairness, I work two weeks on, two weeks off.  So a lot of times, I'll make an audio purchase(s), then can hardly wait to get home again and get them set up.  Although it sounds as if I don't have much of a sound preference, I do, and ultimately all my purchases and swaps are geared toward bettering that.  

I've never been more content with my audio system than before this last go around of equipment a few weeks ago.  (I was streaming through an Allo Digione to my Chord 2Qute DAC, all else was the same as above)  It was working really well but how could I resist all the positivity surrounding the LKS 004?  (Expansive soundstage, increased micro dynamics and details, extra air, analog smoothness, feature set etc)  And for how much?  Yes please!  I'd never even thought twice about replacing my 2Qute over the last three years as I never viewed it as the bottleneck in my system.  But now that I've done all my cable/fuse upgrades etc, the LKS 004 was looking mighty appealing.  So I purchased a lightly used one. 

At the same time, I purchased a new Auralic Aries Mini streamer as I was getting very tired of using Tidal Hi Fi to the Allo Digione (Multiple apps and crashes).  Not to mention trying to explain to the wife how to troubleshoot it.  I also just picked up my last solid silver core interconnect that replaced the last of the copper interconnects in my system. A USB cord upgrade is next, possibly the Curious cable. 

So I plunked the new gear in (Streamer and cable) and listened for several hours with my old DAC (2Qute)  Things sounded very much the same (not a bad thing!) although the Auralic Aries Mini was not broken in yet.  The new cables were already cooked and I could hear a bit more transparency/insight with them in the chain.  

This is when I started demo'ing the LKS 004.  It was plugged into the same Tripp Lite Isolator I've always used on most of my front end gear.  The pre amp and amp have their own outlet with no conditioning.  The LKS was very flat and thin sounding lacking a lot bass.  All mid range and string pluck energy was gone. That's when I started experimenting with different cables, sources, filters and outputs to no effect.  After a week or so of popping it in and out of the chain, I gave up as the 2Qute was startling better in every regard once back in the chain.  So the LKS 004 went back in the box and was waiting for its new owner to purchase it.  I'm not a big fan of waiting long periods of time to let my ears get accustomed to something.  I either like it or I don't, unless it's obvious the component isn't broke in yet.

But alas, something was nagging me.  It was at this point I pulled the LKS box back out and put it back on the shelf.  I had to be missing something.  So I removed my Tripp Lite Isolator from the chain and moved some power cables around.  I fired the LKS 004 up cold with the factory USB cable that comes with it and holy fawk.  Where is all this bass coming from?  It sounds amazing!  Did I accidentally leave my 2Qute plugged in?  After a quick double check of everything, this was the LKS I was hearing.  Wow. And also, what in the hell?  The 2Qute had sounded just fine with the previous set up.

I'm still a little stumped.  I know some people are of the belief that power conditioning can take away some dynamics and energy from digital sources.  But my experience hadn't showed me that's the case with any of my previous gear.  I have previously experimented pulling it out of the chain before but never had any "aha" moments like this.

After listening for awhile with the factory supplied USB cable, I switched between my Audioquest Cinnamon USB cable and a Furutech RCA to BNC input.  They both sounded astounding so I'm sticking with the USB input although, as mentioned, a new USB cable will be on the way shortly.  Really want to try that Curious Cable!

So here are my final comparisons between the 2Qute and the LKS 004:  There is no comparison!  Just kidding.

I'd have to say the only thing that the 2Qute has on the LKS 004 is a touch more dynamics.  It's a little more jumpier and playful, this comes even more into play at low volume listening.  But I couldn't consider this a deal breaker by any means.

The LKS 004 trumps it everywhere else, including bass energy now.  It plays low, controlled and doesn't leave me wanting in this aspect at all.  The soundstage is massive.  It may have added a bit more width but the depth is where it really shines over the 2Qute.  Details, especially micro details are much more apparent.  The treble is airy and smooth with never a hint of glare or etch, even at higher volume levels.  Mid range is beautiful and it now carries energy in spades.  I'm a very happy camper now.

I stated in a previous post that the LKS 004 had quite recessed vocals.  Well not anymore.  They are now exactly as they should be.

Thanks for reading, and in conclusion this DAC is outstanding, especially for the price, build, features and high end parts.  The sound speaks for itself.  I'm so glad I didn't give up or I'd be missing out big time.   ​


----------



## littlexx26

for good quality isolated transformer at affordable price, try Keces from taiwan


----------



## xiamen

347strokin said:


> Back again!  And I'm here to right my wrongs.  Read at your own peril.
> 
> Current equipment:
> 
> ...


Surprised that adding an isolator can make so much difference to the LK S004 (and not the 2Qute !!). Now that you are getting the sound you want, have you tried adding the Tripp Lite isolator back to see if it's really the culprit.


----------



## smodtactical (Aug 28, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> I wouldn't think so, LOL! But I have been trying to stop convincing others on about what is good and what is not anymore....I am kinda getting tired of it.  As I already stated about this 004 on my first impression much earlier, this 004 if was not make in china and by LSK, you would be thinking a $6,000 pricing for it would also be reasonable.  I say this because of how it was designed technically speaking and performances to prove.



Is it better than Yggy A2 if you heard it as well ?

Also anyone know if it has a warranty?

How does it compare to other TOTL Dacs like holo spring lvl 3, Benchmark dac3 ?

I will be running it only via usb so I assume the usb upgrade for $150 is worth it ?


----------



## 347strokin

xiamen said:


> Surprised that adding an isolator can make so much difference to the LK S004 (and not the 2Qute !!). Now that you are getting the sound you want, have you tried adding the Tripp Lite isolator back to see if it's really the culprit.



No I didn't change anything back.  I just enjoyed the music, then had to come back to work. (Out of town)  I will play around some more once I get back.  I'd really like to pinpoint what the problem was there.


----------



## 347strokin

littlexx26 said:


> for good quality isolated transformer at affordable price, try Keces from taiwan



Thanks, I probably won't bother with any more power conditioning.  We've got pretty clean, quiet power where we are and I live far out of any cities.  I mainly wanted the Tripp Lite for surge suppression but I turn my gear off if there's major lightning in the area and unplug all my gear when I'm not home.


----------



## smodtactical

How long does the DA004 need to warm up for before sounding its best? I am assuming its not like a ladder dac that needs several days?


----------



## Whitigir

Power conditioner of any kind suck.  The only thing I used now is Furman References IT15, but even so, that is only best used in places where you really need more outlets, and if your line has horrible DC leakages from other equipments, and even a light bulb will do.

The best of the best is a dedicated circuitry, straight from the circuit breaker, the main panel into the outlets itself.  You can hook one breaker line into 5-6 outlets and it wouldn’t matter as they are all very clean and hooked into your equipments only, no furnitures or applicances, or anything that has ripples that can leak back into it.


----------



## littlexx26

If I do not have dedicated line, switching off all other appliance and electronics help?


----------



## 347strokin (Aug 28, 2018)

Just doing some reading on another forum and ran across these descriptions of some of our filter settings and descriptions.  These are actually from a discussion on the LKS 003 that has good info on the 004 as well:


----------



## 347strokin

Whitigir said:


> Power conditioner of any kind suck.  The only thing I used now is Furman References IT15, but even so, that is only best used in places where you really need more outlets, and if your line has horrible DC leakages from other equipments, and even a light bulb will do.
> 
> The best of the best is a dedicated circuitry, straight from the circuit breaker, the main panel into the outlets itself.  You can hook one breaker line into 5-6 outlets and it wouldn’t matter as they are all very clean and hooked into your equipments only, no furnitures or applicances, or anything that has ripples that can leak back into it.



Absolutely agreed.  I've been trying to nail a down a time for an electrician to finally get my dedicated lines run.


----------



## 347strokin

littlexx26 said:


> If I do not have dedicated line, switching off all other appliance and electronics help?



It does help!  I can clearly hear when our ice maker or espresso machine is running.  I can also see my bias on my tube amp slightly drift when they kick on.


----------



## Whitigir

347strokin said:


> It does help!  I can clearly hear when our ice maker or espresso machine is running.  I can also see my bias on my tube amp slightly drift when they kick on.


And surprisingly, it is so much cheaper when we do this instead of buying snake oil conditioners lol


----------



## smodtactical

Hey guys can you take a look at my questions ? Thanks!


----------



## Whitigir

smodtactical said:


> How long does the DA004 need to warm up for before sounding its best? I am assuming its not like a ladder dac that needs several days?


It only needs 15-20 minutes


----------



## smodtactical

Whitigir said:


> It only needs 15-20 minutes



Have you compared it to other TOTL dacs like Yggy2 or Holo spring 3, Bench Dac3?


----------



## Whitigir

smodtactical said:


> Have you compared it to other TOTL dacs like Yggy2 or Holo spring 3, Bench Dac3?


Have not, but compared to r2r7.  You should see my post about that


----------



## 347strokin

Whitigir said:


> Have not, but compared to r2r7.  You should see my post about that



Whitigir, judging by your posts on another forum, you have a ton of experience with this DAC.


----------



## smodtactical

Whitigir said:


> Hooray, today i am successfully running Pinkfaun i2s into lks004
> Still loosing lock at dpll BD01 at cold start up, it needs 10 minutes warm up
> Also, the custom HDMI cables is not exactly made for the LKS004.  Gotta buy a module instead.  However, it is adequate to get a glimpse to compare between R2r7 VS LKS004
> 
> ...



Sounds like overall you prefer the R2R7? Or no ?


----------



## Whitigir

smodtactical said:


> Sounds like overall you prefer the R2R7? Or no ?


Depends, pcm and a good I2S Computer = R2R7

Any source and USB with DSD format is LKS004


----------



## Chopin75

Whitigir said:


> Depends, pcm and a good I2S Computer = R2R7
> 
> Any source and USB with DSD format is LKS004



Joining u guys here 
From your description of the SD sound of the LKS 004 would that apply to DSD sound too ?


----------



## jjk43

I apologize because I am sure this has been asked and answered previously, but I can't find it...is the I2S input on the 004 PS Audio standard?
Thanks very much.


----------



## m usicguy

Gustard x22 vs lks 
*MH-DA004*
*Im not trying to troll. I have a x22.  Its pretty good.   I need one more modern dac.   So  should i buy a lks mh-da004 or another x22.     The x22 is good but?  LKS?  Its not about the money it about the best budget dac.  *

*musicguy*


----------



## 347strokin

m usicguy said:


> Gustard x22 vs lks
> *MH-DA004*
> *Im not trying to troll. I have a x22.  Its pretty good.   I need one more modern dac.   So  should i buy a lks mh-da004 or another x22.     The x22 is good but?  LKS?  Its not about the money it about the best budget dac.  *
> 
> *musicguy*



A lot depends on your sound preferences and equipment.  I have not listened to an X22.


----------



## smodtactical

m usicguy said:


> Gustard x22 vs lks
> *MH-DA004*
> *Im not trying to troll. I have a x22.  Its pretty good.   I need one more modern dac.   So  should i buy a lks mh-da004 or another x22.     The x22 is good but?  LKS?  Its not about the money it about the best budget dac.  *
> 
> *musicguy*



I'd buy an LKS just so you can have 2 different sounds.


----------



## xiamen

jjk43 said:


> I apologize because I am sure this has been asked and answered previously, but I can't find it...is the I2S input on the 004 PS Audio standard?
> Thanks very much.


I dont think they are the same. On the Singxer SU-1, different firmware needed for Lks 004 to psaudio.


----------



## xiamen

smodtactical said:


> I'd buy an LKS just so you can have 2 different sounds.


Same Ess9038, except single not duo mono as in lks. I doubt sound will be much different. On paper x22 looks like a cut down version of lks004.


----------



## smodtactical

xiamen said:


> Same Ess9038, except single not duo mono as in lks. I doubt sound will be much different. On paper x22 looks like a cut down version of lks004.



A dac is not just about the chip itself right? Its about the chip + the overall design of the dac. I think there will definitely be differences.


----------



## xiamen

smodtactical said:


> A dac is not just about the chip itself right? Its about the chip + the overall design of the dac. I think there will definitely be differences.


Of course. I meant it should have similar signature. On parts used, I would expect lks to be superior. But then again, I had never listen to x22.


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 5, 2018)

Yay! Successful swapping out the 575 to the 950X version !

Pretty straight forward, a little tough on the terminals as it was so little to put paste on top and work around.  The 950X is much larger than the 575.


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 5, 2018)

smodtactical said:


> A dac is not just about the chip itself right? Its about the chip + the overall design of the dac. I think there will definitely be differences.


Yes, but look at the components on lks004.  They are very high-end components, from voltage regulator to melf resistors and fine gold Nichicon, wima, Jensen ....etc...the lks004 is not a cheap device which was built with cheap components.  I don’t know about other folks but for me, the lks004 is still a little warmth, just a very little tad of it


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Yay! Successful swapping out the 575 to the 950X version !
> 
> Pretty straight forward, a little tough on the terminals as it was so little to put paste on top and work around.  The 950X is much larger than the 575.



What is the purpose of this swap?
where from?
how much?

Many thanks!


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> What is the purpose of this swap?
> where from?
> how much?
> 
> Many thanks!



To upgrade the master clock of es9038pro and it performances.  As I posted before, I did not hear lks004 improved upon connecting with Pinkfaun i2s, which it should.  Later on I found out that es9038pro generate it own master clock and it is this 100Mhz 

Where from ? DIY, I am in the US, parts is from mouser

$40 plus shipping for this oscillator


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> To upgrade the master clock of es9038pro and it performances.  As I posted before, I did not hear lks004 improved upon connecting with Pinkfaun i2s, which it should.  Later on I found out that es9038pro generate it own master clock and it is this 100Mhz
> 
> Where from ? DIY, I am in the US, parts is from mouser
> 
> $40 plus shipping for this oscillator



Isn't the 575 100MHz?
Can you actually say what the benefits are please?
Do you hear somesort of improved sound quality?
Price is good at mouser UK also!


----------



## Whitigir

Ofcourse 575 is 100mhz but the 950X is twice the precision of the 575.  

Improved phase accuracy ? And even lower noise floor ? Theoretically speaking 

I can hear better transparency and clarity especially with DSD512 upconverted and also lower floor noises.  Vocal is crazily good, both bass and trebles extensions are better, nuances details surfaces stronger

Yes, mouser is good!


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Ofcourse 575 is 100mhz but the 950X is twice the precision of the 575.
> 
> Improved phase accuracy ? And even lower noise floor ? Theoretically speaking
> 
> ...



Thanks friend!


----------



## Lennym

Whitigir said:


> Ofcourse 575 is 100mhz but the 950X is twice the precision of the 575.
> 
> Improved phase accuracy ? And even lower noise floor ? Theoretically speaking
> 
> ...



Thanks for all this information.  The price I see from Mouser for the CCHD-950X-25-100.000 is $31.10 for a single unit.  Am I looking in the right place?*

Assuming we are generally handy with a soldering iron could you tell us the details of how you made the switch from the 575 to the 950X, especially for those of us not accustomed to soldering in pads? 

Thanks.

*https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...HD-950X-25-100000?qs=L4klnTtkofObrfUJUtC8ig==


----------



## Whitigir

Lennym said:


> Thanks for all this information.  The price I see from Mouser for the CCHD-950X-25-100.000 is $31.10 for a single unit.  Am I looking in the right place?*
> 
> Assuming we are generally handy with a soldering iron could you tell us the details of how you made the switch from the 575 to the 950X, especially for those of us not accustomed to soldering in pads?
> 
> ...



Yes, that is the correct part.  You will need to pay shipping on top of that 

You won’t be able to do it with soldering iron, gotta use hot air gun and soldering paste.  You will also need a desoldering pump.  It is very straight forward.

1/ preheat the 575 at 370F for 10 seconds, then crank up to 390F for about 5-10 seconds, tweezers the 575 off

2/ desolder the left over solder on the pads by the pump.  You can use iron and wick to remove more clean, but with a good pump, it would be very clean 

3/ apply the paste on the pads.  Then carefully place the 950X on top

4/ use 370F to preheat for 5 seconds, then 390F to solder for 5 seconds, then use tweezers to stabilize and do another 5 seconds at 390F

Remember to use flux and clean up when done

**pay attention at the terminations, very easy, just place it the same way the 575 was


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 5, 2018)

Mouser also has the new 575X which is also twice the precision of your common 575 inside the lks004 stock
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...A7msRCm%2bzbxLbhB%2bGdmNZd5srjOsRoXmjFri7IQ==


----------



## Lennym

Thanks.  That's some great advice.  I'll ask around and do some research on hot air soldering for surface mounted components.  Would you recommend a 575X over the 950X?


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 5, 2018)

Lennym said:


> Thanks.  That's some great advice.  I'll ask around and do some research on hot air soldering for surface mounted components.  Would you recommend a 575X over the 950X?



I can not speak for 575X, I do know 950X has a very real improvements as I listed above.  The only hard thing is to fit the much larger 950X on the smaller pads of the 575X.

I can say that replace 575 to 575X can easily be done with iron solder.  Try looking up a YouTube on how to remove SMD with soldering iron.  If you are handy with the iron, the 575X may be a better alternative.  This way you don’t need to buy paste or heat gun.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Yes, that is the correct part.  You will need to pay shipping on top of that
> 
> You won’t be able to do it with soldering iron, gotta use hot air gun and soldering paste.  You will also need a desoldering pump.  It is very straight forward.
> 
> ...



my heat gun only does speed (blower fan). Could I obtain a heat gun that has heat temp. control as well? Cheers!


----------



## Whitigir

Buy one that does temp control


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Yes, that is the correct part.  You will need to pay shipping on top of that
> 
> You won’t be able to do it with soldering iron, gotta use hot air gun and soldering paste.  You will also need a desoldering pump.  It is very straight forward.
> 
> ...



for step 3/,  just apply the paste on the 4 metal contacts on the pad, right?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> for step 3/,  just apply the paste on the 4 metal contacts on the pad, right?


Easier to paste  on the oscillator then put on the board


----------



## littlexx26

just wonder if the high temp from the gun will damage the ocsillator?


----------



## b0bb (Sep 6, 2018)

Lennym said:


> Thanks.  That's some great advice.  I'll ask around and do some research on hot air soldering for surface mounted components.  Would you recommend a 575X over the 950X?



CCHD575X is new, the one Mouser sells is 25ppm stability over extended temp range up to 85degC.

The LKS DAC 003 and 004 XO is very sensitive to the frequency stability vs temperature, somewhat less bothered by the phase noise and/or jitter performance.
Stock XO in the 003/004 is 50ppm  and standard temp range (up to 70deg)

The 575X would be a step up, it  did not exist when the 004 came out. The 950X is more laidback once it burns in, takes about 2+weeks.

Phase noise and jitter is better on the 575 series compared to the 950. More info is available on the 003 thread

As to which is better to the ears, that is the experimental part.


Twisted Pear Audio sells the RHEA XO adapter board, add a 4pin XO socket and get both XOs to try. This allows XO swapping like how some folks swap opamps.

Limitations:

Must be 3.3V CMOS/LV TTL output

Older 004 have the TPS7A47 regulator for the XO, it supplies up to 1A so you can try a compatible OCXO like the Abracon AOCJY1
Newer 004s have the LT3042 limits output current to 200mA, OCXOs are generally out except the Pulsar at 150mA.

Mouser also sell a couple of new 1-2PPM TCXO, temp compensated XOs that might be worth trying


----------



## b0bb

littlexx26 said:


> just wonder if the high temp from the gun will damage the ocsillator?


It might, the metal shield on the 575 can detach during extraction. Just buy a spare 575 it that is a concern.


----------



## littlexx26

Does the material of the solder affect the sound? Using Mundorf 4% fine silver audio solder will yield better results?


----------



## demos

b0bb said:


> CCHD575X is new, the one Mouser sells is 25ppm temp coefficient (tempco) and extended temp range up to 85degC.
> 
> The LKS DAC 003 and 004 XO is very sensitive to the tempco, somewhat less bothered by the phase noise and/or jitter performance.
> Stock XO in the 003/004 is 50ppm  and standard temp range (up to 50deg), the 004 can get hotter than that internally, especially on the older version not heatsinked to the case.
> ...



Is CCHD950 has better Phase jitter than 575?    950's  "Phase Jitter (12kHz~20MHz):  40 fsec Typical @100MHz "   VS   575's  "Phase Jitter: (12kHz~80MHz):  82 fs RMS Typical @ 100 MHz "   on their datasheet


----------



## b0bb (Sep 6, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> Does the material of the solder affect the sound? Using Mundorf 4% fine silver audio solder will yield better results?


The solder used in the joints on the XO  is too small to make a sonic difference.

The danger of rework is overheating the copper pad on the motherboard and damaging the DAC motherboard.

The 4% silver may raise the melting point of the solder and make the joint much harder to rework like the lead free stuff, that contains 2-5% silver.
On my soldering station I use 650 degF/343degC for leaded and 750degF/399degC for the lead free stuff that contains silver.

Similarly the lead free paste takes more time to heat with hot air.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 6, 2018)

demos said:


> Is CCHD950 has better Phase jitter than 575?    950's  "Phase Jitter (12kHz~20MHz):  40 fsec Typical @100MHz "   VS   575's  "Phase Jitter: (12kHz~80MHz):  82 fs RMS Typical @ 100 MHz "   on their datasheet



Nope, for audio work the area curve goes from 10Hz to 10kHz so the jitter numbers will have to recalculated from the phase noise plots.
950x is about 1.5x the jitter of the 575.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-20#post-12775721

The discussion of the calculation is several pages back from that link, method came from an appnote from Maxim.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 6, 2018)

One other thing to keep in mind....

XO Datasheet numbers are measured a fixed temperature.

On the 575-50 a temp change introduces up to a 50ppm error or a frequency deviation of 5kHz, puts it right in the middle of the upper midrange. DS dacs like the 9038 essentially modulate the clock to create audio output.
On the 950-25 the deviation is 2.5kHz, it makes for a less pronounced upper range and enhances the  human vocal range and is consistent with my own listening impression of a mellower sound.

A low cost OCXO like the 50ppb version of the AOCJY1 Mouser sells has a deviation of 5Hz, this is a substantial reduction in coloration as most of the frequency coloration around the midrange is now gone.

Sonically this may create an impression of a colder presentation if one is used to the sonic signature of the 575-50

The ultra low phase noise the datasheets advertise only becomes possible if the 004 is kept in a tightly temp controlled environment.


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 6, 2018)

b0bb said:


> One other thing to keep in mind....
> 
> XO Datasheet numbers are measured a fixed temperature.
> 
> ...



 I need to see if my 004 use that 1A Regulator....but there is no marking on that little regulator ? Lol...

If there is a 1A regulator onboard, I can use this.  It would need warmup time though.  Anyways, how do I know what regulator is used as I can’t see the marking
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ECS/ECOC-2522-100000-3FC?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsC2cQJVRBSBQ7qx1B6RYgm%2bL8c/KIWJXzTGwc7Dapf%2bw==


----------



## littlexx26

do solder and solder paste make any difference to the sound quality? which one more secure?


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 6, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> do solder and solder paste make any difference to the sound quality? which one more secure?


It is too little to make an impact like boob said.  Working on oscillator, the lower the melting point, the better to work with.  If you heat up too much and lift up the traces, you will need to fix it....or you are doomed lol...a damaged oscillator can be replaced, but lifted trace will be a pita to fix

If 950X is what bo0b said, then I am very happy with it.  I love better vocal and welcome a warmer sound.  It will be more analog, and this is what I am hearing too


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> It is too little to make an impact like boob said.  Working on oscillator, the lower the melting point, the better to work with.  If you heat up too much and lift up the traces, you will need to fix it....or you are doomed lol...a damaged oscillator can be replaced, but lifted trace will be a pita to fix
> 
> If 950X is what bo0b said, then I am very happy with it.  I love better vocal and welcome a warmer sound.  It will be more analog, and this is what I am hearing too


so I just to follow your temperature setting and timiing will be very safe?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> so I just to follow your temperature setting and timiing will be very safe?


That is the lowest temp for the soldering to work, and yes, that should be safe


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 6, 2018)

The upgraded clock shows much of it improvements when playing back DSD512 from a PC feeding the Amanero.  I wonder if I can replace this Amanero into DIYinHK module bridge which can do DSD1024 X_X

Anyways this warmer lower trebles is very welcome to my Stax sr009. More meat on the bones is good


----------



## demos (Sep 6, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> I need to see if my 004 use that 1A Regulator....but there is no marking on that little regulator ? Lol...
> 
> If there is a 1A regulator onboard, I can use this.  It would need warmup time though.  Anyways, how do I know what regulator is used as I can’t see the marking
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ECS/ECOC-2522-100000-3FC?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsC2cQJVRBSBQ7qx1B6RYgm%2bL8c/KIWJXzTGwc7Dapf%2bw==



IF it's a TPS7A4700 it has a marking as PXSQ, 1A regulator


----------



## b0bb (Sep 6, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> I need to see if my 004 use that 1A Regulator....but there is no marking on that little regulator ? Lol...
> 
> If there is a 1A regulator onboard, I can use this.  It would need warmup time though.  Anyways, how do I know what regulator is used as I can’t see the marking
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ECS/ECOC-2522-100000-3FC?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsC2cQJVRBSBQ7qx1B6RYgm%2bL8c/KIWJXzTGwc7Dapf%2bw==




Your DAC looks like it has the TPS7A47 1A regulator.
If you want to be absolutely sure, post  close up photo of etching or printing on the top of the chip for identification.

The AOCJY1 OCXO Mouser link below
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ABRACON/AOCJY1-100000MHz?qs=E5sDuDyvt8R6wCADPuHK9w==

The one is your link is too big to fit on the LKS, it is twice the size of the CCHD-950X.

You will also need to change the pre and post filter caps on either side of the regulator.
These look like Nichicon audio caps, they will not be able to supply enough pulse current capability to keep the OCXO at peak performance.

The Nichicon FP caps (red striped ones on the motherboard on the 3.3V and 1.2V regulators) or Panasonic OSCON series are good candidates.
Use the same capacitance values as the stock caps and select the caps with a ripple current rating of 3A or higher, with a 15-16V rating.


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 6, 2018)

So I cleaned up the chip and turned out it has marking.  All 3 regulators are this chip


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> Your DAC looks like it has the TPS7A47 1A regulator.
> If you want to be absolutely sure, post  close up photo of etching or printing on the top of the chip for identification.
> 
> The AOCJY1 OCXO Mouser link below
> ...


 Isn’t FP Nichicon rated for high current ? 5400mA ? I can not find the exact model in the picture I have...it seems to read FP 14Ad series , 471uF, 6.3V


----------



## smodtactical

I wonder how the LKS compares to NFB 7.77


----------



## smodtactical

Is the upgraded USB card for the 004 problematic? There is a guy selling a 004 to me but it has the basic amanero card not the upgraded one. He said its better to use an external SU-1 into the basic amanero then get the upgraded usb board.

What do you guys think?


----------



## Whitigir

smodtactical said:


> Is the upgraded USB card for the 004 problematic? There is a guy selling a 004 to me but it has the basic amanero card not the upgraded one. He said its better to use an external SU-1 into the basic amanero then get the upgraded usb board.
> 
> What do you guys think?



Upgraded Amanero is the best of Amanero.  If you liked Amanero that is.  I don’t like Amanero for a reason.  The seller is correct to recommend Singxer SU-1 as you can use I2S out into the lks004, and the SU-1 uses Xmos instead of FPGA and funky firmware.  IMO, Xmos is much better than Amanero.  Sadly, it can’t do DSD1024


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Upgraded Amanero is the best of Amanero.  If you liked Amanero that is.  I don’t like Amanero for a reason.  The seller is correct to recommend Singxer SU-1 as you can use I2S out into the lks004, and the SU-1 uses Xmos instead of FPGA and funky firmware.  IMO, Xmos is much better than Amanero.  Sadly, it can’t do DSD1024


The iFi Pro iDSD uses the latest Xmos and can do DSD1024. It seems to be everything else as well (tube/solid state, tone of filters etc). Little sceptical how good it can be when it's all things to all people. The SU-1 i2s output includes MCLK signal. Does anyone know if that acts as the master clock or the slave to the LKS 004?


----------



## b0bb (Sep 7, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Isn’t FP Nichicon rated for high current ? 5400mA ? I can not find the exact model in the picture I have...it seems to read FP 14Ad series , 471uF, 6.3V


Correct, replace the Muse caps with the FP's. Your DAC is using the TPS7A47.
The TPS7A47 datasheet specifies low ESR caps to keep the regulator stable on high load current.
The OCXO mentioned here will use the max 1A when warming up.


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 7, 2018)

b0bb said:


> Correct, replace the Muse caps with the FP's. Your DAC is using the TPS7A47.
> The TPS7A47 datasheet specifies low ESR caps to keep the regulator stable on high load current.
> The OCXO mentioned here will use the max 1A when warming up.


Thanks @b0bb.  By your post here, this OCXO is drop in upgrades for lks004 and has better performances than 950X.  But pulsar is better ? It look like the Muse caps will need to be replaced anyways to better stabilize the regulator.  Why was it used in the first place here though ? Probably for more analog sounding to offset Sabres and 575 glares? Then I better keep on with Nichicon FP

I will just drop in an Rhea - dip socket and dip the cheap OCXO now while waiting for pulsar at the end of the year, hopefully they come back to it.  I found the adapter board for crystek! Thanks B0bb

This AOCJY1 is actually the same terminals configurations as 950X but pin1 will need to short to ground ? Or is it unnecessary?

Also saw your explaination on the stability of this OCXO vs 950X.  It seems the stability in it accuracy is too crazy.  It just explains why the OCXO uses a lot of power and is higher ppm rating than 950x.  This AOCJY1 is 50_*PPB *_and not 25_*PPM*_ like Crystek!

So far I am very happy with the 950X, can’t see how the OCXO will do


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 7, 2018)

xiamen said:


> The iFi Pro iDSD uses the latest Xmos and can do DSD1024. It seems to be everything else as well (tube/solid state, tone of filters etc). Little sceptical how good it can be when it's all things to all people. The SU-1 i2s output includes MCLK signal. Does anyone know if that acts as the master clock or the slave to the LKS 004?



I asked if I DSDPro, it can not do any higher than DSD512 for external connections.  The available dsd1024 is only internal works, you will need to use the internal upsampling FPGA engine to upsample into dsd1024 , the lks004 can do DSD1024 externally.

Regardless of external Mclock lines, the lks004 doesn’t need it, so it is NA toward the lks004.  This was why my Pinkfaun I2S showed no improvements, which later on I found out about this and choose to upgrade the clocks to take this further, and I was right


----------



## smodtactical

Whitigir how is your heavily modded LKS sounding now compared to other top DACs you've heard?


----------



## Whitigir

smodtactical said:


> Whitigir how is your heavily modded LKS sounding now compared to other top DACs you've heard?


It is not heavily modded lol, but it has always been at the high-end segments. The only down fall is that it is Async and has it own clocks which generated upon the main 100mhz in there.  Until this clock is upgraded, any sources input would be just as good as this clock itself regardless of source.

Simply saying, with lks004, you don’t have to worry about bad sources, where as for other DAC, you may have to


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Thanks @b0bb.  By your post here, this OCXO is drop in upgrades for lks004 and has better performances than 950X.  But pulsar is better ? It look like the Muse caps will need to be replaced anyways to better stabilize the regulator.  Why was it used in the first place here though ? Probably for more analog sounding to offset Sabres and 575 glares? Then I better keep on with Nichicon FP
> 
> I will just drop in an Rhea - dip socket and dip the cheap OCXO now while waiting for pulsar at the end of the year, hopefully they come back to it.  I found the adapter board for crystek! Thanks B0bb
> 
> ...


I left my AOCJY1  unconnected, you could pull it to ground and see what happens.


Take your time with the mods the 950 will take about 2 weeks to burn in if left powered on 24x7

I had the CCHD950X for about 1year before switching, it is quite a step up from stock. I waited for about 10months for the Pulsar to become available.

They are custom made in small batches, much better that the OEM spec. I bought the AOCJY1 while waiting.

AOCJY1 has a tremendous dynamic presentation, the 950s are laid back and the soundstage closedin in comparison.
Pulsar is the AOCJY1 with an even bigger soundstage and resolving ability and much warmer as it is not stressing the power supply as much.
Downside is that micropower consumption and high stability does not come at a discount.


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 8, 2018)

Alright, thanks @b0bb .  I have just put in the Dip 14 socket and getting ready for my OCXO.  It is coming tuesday and in the mean time I modified my 950X Frankenstein style to Dip in, and the capacitors are upgraded

I shall be ready for Pulsar and that OCXO drop in! This is awesome.  The clock upgrades vastly improve the DSD performances, and I do not understand why, but who cares ? As long as my ears is happy

The Nichicon FP is a little confusion, I dropped my jaw when seeing it body code....I thought I was getting 470uF again,  but it is actually 47uF where the 470uF would be marked as 471

I also encountered a strange issue, I used to get dpll to lose lock at BW01 when cold crank up.  It would need 15 minutes.  But now it is no longer dropping it even when cold ... what ?


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Alright, thanks @b0bb
> 
> I also encountered a strange issue, I used to get dpll to lose lock at BW01 when cold crank up.  It would need 15 minutes.  But now it is no longer dropping it even when cold ... what ?



15mins sounds about right for normal XO warm up, manufacturer specs specifically jitter, are not guaranteed until then.
The newer crystal is a 25ppm XO compared to a 50ppm on the stock XO, so the cold power on variance is correspondingly lower. 

BW01 is the lowest PLL lock range, if the phase deviation between the master clock and the clock of your incoming audio stream exceeds this it will not lock onto the signal.

Your source material is jittery.


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 8, 2018)

b0bb said:


> 15mins sounds about right for normal XO warm up, manufacturer specs specifically jitter, are not guaranteed until then.
> The newer crystal is a 25ppm XO compared to a 50ppm on the stock XO, so the cold power on variance is correspondingly lower.
> 
> BW01 is the lowest PLL lock range, if the phase deviation between the master clock and the clock of your incoming audio stream exceeds this it will not lock onto the signal.
> ...



Yes, that Amanero and I need a PCIE USB card with better clock, or is there something I can do to upgrade my motherboard clock ?  Though at BW01 it no longer lose lock now Even at cold, I do want to know how to improve my PC in USB application


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Yes, that Amanero and I need a PCIE USB card with better clock, or is there something I can do to upgrade my motherboard clock ?  Though at BW01 it no longer lose lock now Even at cold, I do want to know how to improve my PC in USB application



The motherboard clock should not be touched, first determine if the problem can be handled by changing the transport link.
If the Pink Faun via I2S is showing the same behavior, it is likely the software you are using for playback (foobar,j river, hqplayer etc).

If you want to change the USB output from the PC, take a look at what Pink Faun or SotM have on offer.

DSD on the LKS has the potential to quite good, in that case BW01 is a non-option if the Amanero is the source, I would not worry over this.


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 8, 2018)

b0bb said:


> The motherboard clock should not be touched, first determine if the problem can be handled by changing the transport link.
> If the Pink Faun via I2S is showing the same behavior, it is likely the software you are using for playback (foobar,j river, hqplayer etc).
> 
> If you want to change the USB output from the PC, take a look at what Pink Faun or SotM have on offer.
> ...



Pinkfaun i2s is actually great, but it is limited to 192Khz.  I would love to get dsd1024 on the lks004.  The only bridge module available now is the diyinhk one with Xmos216.

My usb output now has no problem doing 44.1 or 48k at BW01.  Unless I am using upsampling to 384khz or so.  The software I am using now is the HQPlayer, though using Oversampling on the HQPlayer degrade the sound, so I better leave it as is, or DSD512 

Yes, DSD512 sounds awesome, and changing the clock is a huge improvements, and I am staying on BW15 without worrying


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Pinkfaun i2s is actually great, but it is limited to 192Khz.  I would love to get dsd1024 on the lks004.  The only bridge module available now is the diyinhk one with Xmos216.
> 
> My usb output now has no problem doing 44.1 or 48k at BW01.  Unless I am using upsampling to 384khz or so.  The software I am using now is the HQPlayer, though using Oversampling on the HQPlayer degrade the sound, so I better leave it as is, or DSD512
> 
> Yes, DSD512 sounds awesome, and changing the clock is a huge improvements, and I am staying on BW15 without worrying



You need to stay at BW15 for DSD512?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> You need to stay at BW15 for DSD512?


Depends on the filters and modulators options, but yes....because Amanero suck, but it doesn’t matter for DSD Native


----------



## Chopin75

Maybe a dumb question, are the internal clocks for DAC always a Master clock ar 10mhz ?


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 9, 2018)

Chopin75 said:


> Maybe a dumb question, are the internal clocks for DAC always a Master clock ar 10mhz ?


You meant can it take external master clock ? If so, no...lks004 generates it own by this 100Mhz.  So the better the clock, the better the performances whether it is DSD or pcm.  However, because of this, it is less susceptible to bad or good sources than my R2R7


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Alright, thanks @b0bb .  I have just put in the Dip 14 socket and getting ready for my OCXO.  It is coming tuesday and in the mean time I modified my 950X Frankenstein style to Dip in, and the capacitors are upgraded
> 
> I shall be ready for Pulsar and that OCXO drop in! This is awesome.  The clock upgrades vastly improve the DSD performances, and I do not understand why, but who cares ? As long as my ears is happy
> 
> ...


I was going to just enjoy music for a while. But you got me intrigued. How do I get the correct XO adapter. Can you give me a part number and where to get it. Do it put it on the same way you describe with the 950x directly? What's dip 14 socket? Is that part of the adapter or something you have to get separately? What do you mean when you say you have to "Frankenstein" the 950X to fit? Thanks Whitgir.


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 9, 2018)

xiamen said:


> I was going to just enjoy music for a while. But you got me intrigued. How do I get the correct XO adapter. Can you give me a part number and where to get it. Do it put it on the same way you describe with the 950x directly? What's dip 14 socket? Is that part of the adapter or something you have to get separately? What do you mean when you say you have to "Frankenstein" the 950X to fit? Thanks Whitgir.



14 DIP socket can be found on Mouser.  It has 14 Pins, and I had to modify it by taking out 8 Pins and leave the 4 corner Pins which fit in the holes perfectly on the 004 as shown

Part link: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/855-D2814-42

It was easy to use a hot solder iron and push out the unnecessary pins.  The stock 575 clock need to be hotgun out, or you can easily make a caged solid wires to use a hot soldering iron instead, check some YouTube videos for it.  Then you can solder in the DIP socket.

I had to Frankenstein my 950X as I had it sit on another DIP socket with solid silver wires running to it terminals, it was hell to make it happen, but it happened....you could see how ugly it look here.


----------



## Chopin75

Whitigir said:


> You meant can it take external master clock ? If so, no...lks004 generates it own by this 100Mhz.  So the better the clock, the better the performances whether it is DSD or pcm.  However, because of this, it is less susceptible to bad or good sources than my R2R7


I am wondering if it can take in masterclock or word clock to allow sync of 3 DACs to do the M-ch. the brooklyn Mytec has this feature. But r2r and this lk004 do not. Some other SD Dac has clock input but i have not seen a R2R with this feature.


----------



## littlexx26

I am going to put 575X. How much solder paste I should use each point?


----------



## Whitigir

Enough to cover the trace fully


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 12, 2018)

Never measured my clock voltage.  So I just measured it and she is sitting a healthy 3.320V when warmed up after 24 hours!  I am so ready for these new clocks to be playing with


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 12, 2018)

Out is 950x and in is OCXO as @b0bb recommended.  It is dropped right in on the DIL-14 style without any soldering Q_Q woaaa...rolling clocks Instead of Tubes ? Lol

This clock here is 50PPB (_per Billions)_ ! In contrast of 950X which is 25PPM (_per Millions_)
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/815-AOCJY1-100M


----------



## Lennym

Just for the record, Whitigir, is this what you are using?  And is it simply a drop in replacement (with due deference to the size difference, for the factory clock?  Thanks.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ABRACON/AOCJY1-100000MHz?qs=E5sDuDyvt8R6wCADPuHK9w==


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 12, 2018)

Lennym said:


> Just for the record, Whitigir, is this what you are using?  And is it simply a drop in replacement (with due deference to the size difference, for the factory clock?  Thanks.
> 
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ABRACON/AOCJY1-100000MHz?qs=E5sDuDyvt8R6wCADPuHK9w==



It is what I am using now .  However ! It isn’t a simply drop-in.  My version of lks004 I was able to modify some parts and make it possible

in order to drop in, you need to have a DIL-14 socket installed like what I showed in the pictures.  It also consumes 1A of power, so you need to make sure that your voltage regulator is up to task, if it is, then you also need to modify the capacitors as well.  Only some few first batches of lks004 is using these Texas regulators TPS7A4700.  Otherwise, you will need to also upgrade those regulators and so on.  But doing that much work, you may as well look into Pulsar OCXO which is much better and is ready to drop in if you already have a DIL-14 socket installed

So, for the lower power regulators on the newer 004, it is more likely that you need to look into either Pulsar, or the 575X or the 950X


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Out is 950x and in is OCXO as @b0bb recommended.  It is dropped right in on the DIL-14 style without any soldering Q_Q woaaa...rolling clocks Instead of Tubes ? Lol
> 
> This clock here is 50PPB (_per Billions)_ ! In contrast of 950X which is 25PPM (_per Millions_)
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/815-AOCJY1-100M



WOW! - great work! No soldering?


----------



## Paul Staples (Sep 12, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> It is what I am using now .  However ! It isn’t a simply drop-in.  My version of lks004 I was able to modify some parts and make it possible
> 
> in order to drop in, you need to have a DIL-14 socket installed like what I showed in the pictures.  It also consumes 1A of power, so you need to make sure that your voltage regulator is up to task, if it is, then you also need to modify the capacitors as well.  Only some few first batches of lks004 is using these Texas regulators TPS7A4700.  Otherwise, you will need to also upgrade those regulators and so on.  But doing that much work, you may as well look into Pulsar OCXO which is much better and is ready to drop in if you already have a DIL-14 socket installed
> 
> So, for the lower power regulators on the newer 004, it is more likely that you need to look into either Pulsar, or the 575X or the 950X



don't mind the work as long as I have all the part numbers and your pics. [with arrows] pointing @ what part goes where! Great work, good info.


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 12, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> WOW! - great work! No soldering?


Some soldering requires to replace the capacitors and to put in the DIL14 dip socket.  You need to make sure that you have the powerful regulator first though.  Take pictures of the regulator closeup and we can identify it

Capacitor is here
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/647-RNS1E470MDN1

Clock is here
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/815-AOCJY1-100M

And wow, mouser us had 5 in stock and today is only 2 lol....

The DIL14 adapter can be found here . Scroll to bottom pace and pick $8.50
http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/cronus.aspx
 

The DIL14 socket I am using as picture shown is .  It needs modifications by using a soldering iron, push out the pins (heat it up and push it out)
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/855-D2814-42


----------



## Whitigir

Also, if you remember, I built my Pinkfaun I2S PC, and I was unable to observe the improvements on LKS004 where as my r2r7 improved to another tier. Upgraded this 100Mhz clock and the LKs004 is now scaling up with my Pinkfaun I2S.  It is so awesome!


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Some soldering requires to replace the capacitors and to put in the DIL14 dip socket.  You need to make sure that you have the powerful regulator first though.  Take pictures of the regulator closeup and we can identify it
> 
> Capacitor is here
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/647-RNS1E470MDN1
> ...



Thanks! When I said soldering I just wondered if the ocxo just pushes into the dip14 socket? I realise the socket itself & caps need to be soldered though - LOL!
I will take close ups WHEN I GET A NEW CAMERA, dropped mine and broke the battery cage cover 'clean off'! It was old anyway (reads ancient!).
Many thanks friend!


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> Thanks! When I said soldering I just wondered if the ocxo just pushes into the dip14 socket? I realise the socket itself & caps need to be soldered though - LOL!
> I will take close ups WHEN I GET A NEW CAMERA, dropped mine and broke the battery cage cover 'clean off'! It was old anyway (reads ancient!).
> Many thanks friend!


You are welcome , and smartphone pictures shall be good enough ? Yeah, if you have the DIP socket, it is dropped in


----------



## Paul Staples (Sep 12, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Also, if you remember, I built my Pinkfaun I2S PC, and I was unable to observe the improvements on LKS004 where as my r2r7 improved to another tier. Upgraded this 100Mhz clock and the LKs004 is now scaling up with my Pinkfaun I2S.  It is so awesome!


you've answered the question! before I even ask! I was wondering about the comparison to r2r7 myself actually.
Good work mate.

PS: will take photos of regulator soon enough, my moby does really crap photos too, that is also obsolete! Need up grade moby, but the money isn't going there right now. LOL!


----------



## Lennym

Whitigir said:


> Some soldering requires to replace the capacitors and to put in the DIL14 dip socket.  You need to make sure that you have the powerful regulator first though.  Take pictures of the regulator closeup and we can identify it







This is a picture of mine.  Though I thought I was an early adopter, it looks different than yours.

By the way the picture shows clearly the traces from the top two clock pads (3,4) to the receiving holes for the dip-14 socket.  I assume the bottom 2 (1,2) are also connected in some way.


----------



## demos

Whitigir said:


> Out is 950x and in is OCXO as @b0bb recommended.  It is dropped right in on the DIL-14 style without any soldering Q_Q woaaa...rolling clocks Instead of Tubes ? Lol
> 
> This clock here is 50PPB (_per Billions)_ ! In contrast of 950X which is 25PPM (_per Millions_)
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/815-AOCJY1-100M]




You're quick man


----------



## demos

Lennym said:


> This is a picture of mine.  Though I thought I was an early adopter, it looks different than yours.
> 
> By the way the picture shows clearly the traces from the top two clock pads (3,4) to the receiving holes for the dip-14 socket.  I assume the bottom 2 (1,2) are also connected in some way.




I got the same regulator as this one, can only output 200ma


----------



## Whitigir

demos said:


> I got the same regulator as this one, can only output 200ma


Yeah, absolutely post up pictures so we can confirm


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 12, 2018)

Not fast enough !



demos said:


> You're quick man



So...what is better than that little abracon ? *A larger abracon ! 2.5x more expensive !* Also 5X more in stability of 10PPB and not 50PPB.
*
Go in Frankenstein’s style !! Still Dropped-in !!!
*
This one is from digikey and it requires some works with the twisted pear audio adapter (sugru fix everything !). Terminated differently ! So you can see me running hard-silver all around X_X.  This one started cold crank of 3W and is operating at 1W, which is well within the regulators capability !

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/abracon-llc/AOCJY2-100.000MHZ-E/535-10666-ND/2441432
*
Yes! Once again, she upscaled with Pinkfaun I2S! *Wow, I never would have thought the lks004 has so much more Juices to be squeezed out like this ! Totally craziness ! This is definitely the heart of LKS004 !
*

      
*


----------



## demos

Whitigir said:


> Not fast enough !
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A sc-cut crystal beast!


----------



## Whitigir

demos said:


> A sc-cut crystal beast!


Oh yeah! Huge! Though, and yet affordable


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 12, 2018)

This OCXO is bringing the LKS004 into another tier of class with my Pinkfaun I2S.  The soundstage is now much more vertical (which was never impressive to me from the beginning, but now it is! And this thing isn’t even done burn-in).  This soundstage and the deeper more dynamic timbres (more depth, and hence more organic) are all very obvious improvements, together with other details.  I can totally see where Pulsar will play a huge role.

To those people who doesn’t have this powerful regulators, may as well save the money and wait for Pulsar 100Mhz.  It will be a simpler job of removing 575 crystek and put in a DIL-14 dip sockets, and then dip-in the Pulsar.

Other clocks is also an upgrade such as 575X and 950X, they are the next sane tier of improvements for many other LKS004.  The lks004 is already built with so much quality components.  They even leave out the holes to fit in the DIP socket ! This is the reason why clock can be so important and show so much improvements


----------



## demos

Whitigir said:


> This OCXO is bringing the LKS004 into another tier of class with my Pinkfaun I2S.  The soundstage is now much more vertical (which was never impressive to me from the beginning, but now it is! And this thing isn’t even done burn-in).  This soundstage and the deeper more dynamic timbres (more depth, and hence more organic) are all very obvious improvements, together with other details.  I can totally see where Pulsar will play a huge role.
> 
> To those people who doesn’t have this powerful regulators, may as well save the money and wait for Pulsar 100Mhz.  It will be a simpler job of removing 575 crystek and put in a DIL-14 dip sockets, and then dip-in the Pulsar.
> 
> Other clocks is also an upgrade such as 575X and 950X, they are the next sane tier of improvements for many other LKS004.  The lks004 is already built with so much quality components.  They even leave out the holes to fit in the DIP socket ! This is the reason why clock can be so important and show so much improvements



How is the bass, does it sound warmer on the bid clock?




demos said:


> I got the same regulator as this one, can only output 200ma




I got my self some TPS7A4700 waiting already


----------



## Whitigir

demos said:


> How is the bass, does it sound warmer on the bid clock?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The big OCXO ? Bass is amazing with great depth and dynamic, warmth of organic timbres and tight when needed such as EMD music or synthesized bass

Where did you get those regulators ? That is amazingly fast !


----------



## demos (Sep 12, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> The big OCXO ? Bass is amazing with great depth and dynamic, warmth of organic timbres and tight when needed such as EMD music or synthesized bass
> 
> Where did you get those regulators ? That is amazingly fast !



Sounds great on the bass!

I got these earlier ago from ebay, ships from China


----------



## Whitigir

demos said:


> I got these earlier ago from ebay, ships from China


Will be interesting to see how you will fit them on the lks004 .  Keep us all updated !


----------



## Whitigir

Wow, so on my Pinkfaun and it upgraded OCXO clock.  I found out that it was a modified module with voltage regulator to use the 5V of this OCXO
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/connor-winfield/OH200-61003CF-024.576M/CW873-ND/5399006

And it is cheaper than the OCXO Abracon that I just put into my lks004....it aging is also much worse than the Abracon.  No wonder why the Abracon is so expensive

Both has the same phase noises, no wonder why the lks004 scaled up so crazily with my Pinkfaun i2s! Wow...never expected this.  But I am head over heels with this new OCXO


----------



## aggielaw (Sep 12, 2018)

Whitigir, I took photos of the inside of my LKS to determine its upgradeability. I hope I captured the proper locations!

Thanks,
HC


----------



## aggielaw

Whoa, those are HUGE!  Sorry about that.


----------



## Whitigir

aggielaw said:


> Whoa, those are HUGE!  Sorry about that.


I can not see what is here .  Need better close up pic and resolution


----------



## Whitigir

Oh by the way, I just found out that Matrix X-Sabre pro uses 950   The build doesn’t look like a possibility to swap and upgrade clock like lks004.

Thank you LKS!


----------



## aggielaw

Ah, here's a clearer shot.


----------



## Whitigir

aggielaw said:


> Ah, here's a clearer shot.


So, you don’t have that 1A regulator.  The best your clock upgrade can be is to wait for a Pulsar, or put in a Dip socket and use 575X or 950X in the mean time. Then when Pulsar is available, you just unplug these clocks and drop Pulsar in.  Easy as pie


----------



## Whitigir

Does @b0bb or anyone know what is the tightest PLL the Es9038pro can lock onto ? Thank you


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Not fast enough !
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice job!.

The solder pad at the bottom of the RHEA is for a noise decoupling cap, use a 0.1uF or higher MLCC ceramic cap, get the biggest value that fits the solder pads.

Metal parts of the XO should not be touching the metal parts of the FP cap, if the lacquer scratches off, the XO is exposed to the noise the caps are filtering.
Use a high temp tape like kapton to insulate the body of the XO from the caps.


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Does @b0bb or anyone know what is the tightest PLL the Es9038pro can lock onto ? Thank you


BW01 for PCM 384k and BW08 for DSD256 over DoP on my setup.


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> BW01 for PCM 384k and BW08 for DSD256 over DoP on my setup.


I meant is there details like what pick second or femto second the highest lock es9038pro can do ?


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> I meant is there details like what pick second or femto second the highest lock es9038pro can do ?


Not sure what you mean by pick  second.


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> Nice job!.
> 
> The solder pad at the bottom of the RHEA is for a noise decoupling cap, use a 0.1uF or higher MLCC ceramic cap, get the biggest value that fits the solder pads.
> 
> ...


Does noise decoupling cap really needed ?


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> Not sure what you mean by pick  second.


Pico second...my iPad is fooling my typing


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Does noise decoupling cap really needed ?


Yes, adapters can compromise the shielding and ground plane performance. Local decoupling helps keep noise under control.


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> Yes, adapters can compromise the shielding and ground plane performance. Local decoupling helps keep noise under control.


What exact value,would u recommend


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Pico second...my iPad is fooling my typing


Are you asking about the PLL phase lock range on the 9038?
(That kind of info is not public)


Whitigir said:


> Pico second...my iPad is fooling my typing


I do not fully understand the qestion.


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> What exact value,would u recommend


Minimum 0.1uF 10V or higher surface mount MLCC cap.
You have to measure the distance between the pads on the RHEA and look up the right part on Mouser


----------



## demos

b0bb said:


> Minimum 0.1uF 10V or higher surface mount MLCC cap.
> You have to measure the distance between the pads on the RHEA and look up the right part on Mouser



How about to use PP/MKP film cap there? if have enough space


----------



## b0bb

demos said:


> How about to use PP/MKP film cap there? if have enough space


ESR is too high at 100MHz, MLCC caps are made in very thin stacked layers to reduce the inductance which lowers ESR.
MLCC caps are made for noise decoupling.


----------



## demos

@b0bb  Do you thing how big the difference would be between the AOCJY sc-cut OCXO and pulsar clock? Do you think the crystal they use has similar spec, Thanks in advance!


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 13, 2018)

b0bb said:


> Minimum 0.1uF 10V or higher surface mount MLCC cap.
> You have to measure the distance between the pads on the RHEA and look up the right part on Mouser





b0bb said:


> ESR is too high at 100MHz, MLCC caps are made in very thin stacked layers to reduce the inductance which lowers ESR.
> MLCC caps are made for noise decoupling.



Thanks @b0bb , in is my Murata MLCC.  I especially love murata Q_Q, and I don’t even know why.  This little lad here is 0.1uf and 50V

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/81-GRM40X104K50L

Though, I notice when at cold turn up, the lks004 displayed unlock into lock BW01 and 44khz, then unlock into lock at 48khz, then unlock into lock at 176khz.  I quickly played music upsample to 176khz, and there was no Unlock or stuttering at all.  Just beautiful music.  Is this normal ? ***must be normal as I am connecting via I2S and it only becomes unlock when my PC is off, or powering on and goes through booting steps


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> *Are you asking about the PLL phase lock range on the 9038?
> (That kind of info is not public)*
> 
> I do not fully understand the qestion.



Yes, that is what I am asking.  I wonder if the ES9038Pro can be latched onto as high precision as those Modules by MSB themselves as their galaxy clock is 6k clock Q_Q


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Not fast enough !
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Whitigir said:


> Not fast enough !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, is that a"dropped-in"? I think the abracon is too much work for me, I'll be favorite to the first to brick my lks 004. What I have in mind is to start by upgrading to the 575x  but to do it in such a way that at a later stage, I can have a real dropped in upgrade to the Pulsar (to avoid having to upgrade vr and caps?). From what I read here, I will have to other than the XO, get the Rhea adapter as well as a dip 14? So I hot ironed off the original 575. From your image of the Rhea, it has 4 legs. Can I assume they fit into the pads for the x575? Do I solder the Rhea onto the pads? Then what do I do next. Can you give me simple intructions? Thx whitgir.


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> Lol, is that a"dropped-in"? I think the abracon is too much work for me, I'll be favorite to the first to brick my lks 004. What I have in mind is to start by upgrading to the 575x  but to do it in such a way that at a later stage, I can have a real dropped in upgrade to the Pulsar (to avoid having to upgrade vr and caps?). From what I read here, I will have to other than the XO, get the Rhea adapter as well as a dip 14? So I hot ironed off the original 575. From your image of the Rhea, it has 4 legs. Can I assume they fit into the pads for the x575? Do I solder the Rhea onto the pads? Then what do I do next. Can you give me simple intructions? Thx whitgir.



Every lks004 can be fixed for the : Pulsar OCXO, without any changing of capacitors

What you need in parts ? DIL-14 Dip sockets, Rhea adapter, clocks of choices (575x, 950x, Pulsar)

1/ prepare dil-14 dip by pushing out the unnecessary pins by a hot iron.

2/ take out the PCB board

3/ desolder stock 575 clock, no need to clean up, you can if you are neatly person 

4/ turn around and fix in to fit the DIL-14, solder it up

5/ prepare the Rhea and the clock.  Make sure you are watching and following the pins out arrangement

*both 575x and 950x has the same direction to put in and replace the stock one*

6/ solder paste onto the pads of the clocks (enough to cover the pads neatly and not over the pads).

7/ use tweezers to drop the clock onto the Rhea board and hot air solder it on

***if you care, the back of the Rhea board has a place for noises decoupling capacitors as @b0bb suggested, I used 0.1uf and 50V MLCC for it***. It brought out better upper treble details in my experiences

8/ make sure you are watching the pins out arrangement on #5 and the picture I provided 

9/ Dip-in, and done!

 

The Abracon is only possible if your version has 1A version of regulators.  The smaller one does not need capacitor upgrades.  The biggest Abracon will need capacitors upgrade


----------



## b0bb (Sep 14, 2018)

demos said:


> @b0bb  Do you thing how big the difference would be between the AOCJY sc-cut OCXO and pulsar clock? Do you think the crystal they use has similar spec, Thanks in advance!


Pulsar has 25x less jitter.
SC is the most common type of crystals used in an OCXO.

OCXOs that perform at the Pulsar's level are considered dual use devices governed by the Wassenaar Arrangement (aka weapons grade) so commercial outlets like Mouser will not stock it.
I had to fill out the Wassenaar paperwork before I could buy the Pulsar.

Abracon 503fs r.m.s jitter




Pulsar 20fs r.m.s jitter


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Yes, that is what I am asking.  I wonder if the ES9038Pro can be latched onto as high precision as those Modules by MSB themselves as their galaxy clock is 6k clock Q_Q



Yes it can, the  phase lock range is programmable.

The DPLL is an error correction device, the wider the range the lower the quality of the signal and this is why LKS recommends the lowest BW setting be used where possible.


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Thanks @b0bb
> Though, I notice when at cold turn up, the lks004 displayed unlock into lock BW01 and 44khz, then unlock into lock at 48khz, then unlock into lock at 176khz.  I quickly played music upsample to 176khz, and there was no Unlock or stuttering at all.  Just beautiful music.  Is this normal ? ***must be normal as I am connecting via I2S and it only becomes unlock when my PC is off, or powering on and goes through booting steps



That is normal I see this on my I2S connection


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 14, 2018)

Wow, and here I thought AT cut is common where SC is less common.  Thanks for the graphs above @b0bb.  Was that option standard or E, F that you calculated above for Abracon 2 ?

How is real application number calculated ? I saw this post here

The Abracon 2 is 5x better than Abracon 1 on specs, But the rms is only 3x or so ?


----------



## b0bb (Sep 15, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Wow, and here I thought AT cut is common where SC is less common.  Thanks for the graphs above @b0bb.  Was that option standard or E, F that you calculated above for Abracon 2 ?
> 
> How is real application number calculated ? I saw this post here
> 
> The Abracon 2 is 5x better than Abracon 1 on specs, But the rms is only 3x or so ?



The graphs I posted above is the phase noise (PN) profile if temperature is kept *constant*.
The posts you linked is why OCXOs exist, it addressed the temperature dependence issues of frequency stability.

The PN plots are 2D slice taken at a specific temp typically 25 ºC, along the temp axis much like a CAT scan.

Below is an example on how the performance varies with temp from http://www.quartzpro.com/crystalsfacts.html





XO datasheets usually quote performance at the inflection points so it minimizes the differences between the different XO options (E,F etc)


----------



## demos (Sep 15, 2018)

b0bb said:


> The graphs I posted above is the phase noise (PN) profile if temperature is kept *constant*.
> The posts you linked is why OCXOs exist, it addressed the temperature dependence issues of frequency stability.
> 
> The PN plots are 2D slice taken at a specific temp typically 25 ºC, along the temp axis much like a CAT scan.
> ...



XO options are more like how the manufacture rate the Xtal, The SC Oven are hot BTW


----------



## bibo01

@Whitigir 
For the Pulsar is it better to have its own PS?


----------



## Whitigir

bibo01 said:


> @Whitigir
> For the Pulsar is it better to have its own PS?


I dont see why or how so.  It just complicate the stuff further


----------



## littlexx26

help! i was tring to remove the 575 using hot air gun, now the lid of 575 detached. but the board still stick on the main board. how to remove it?


----------



## Whitigir

X_X sorry to hear that

Use flux apply around the 575, turn the air gun at the right temperature, and use a tweezers to grab it out while applying hot air around it.  Then toss the 575 away


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> X_X sorry to hear that
> 
> Use flux apply around the 575, turn the air gun at the right temperature, and use a tweezers to grab it out while applying hot air around it.  Then toss the 575 away


i was following your 370f and 390f rule, however the solder is hard as rock. so i cranked up the temp and resulted the lid detached. so scared now


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 22, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> i was following your 370f and 390f rule, however the solder is hard as rock. so i cranked up the temp and resulted the lid detached. so scared now


Should have followed the temperature setting.  If it was hard, you didn’t have the heat on long enough.  When it is on that temperature long enough, it would be easily be out .  Don’t worry, damaging the 575 is ok, you have 950X on hand.

Be cautious though, don’t crank up heat too high and or fan speed too much. You may blow away the little MLCC capacitors or resistors


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Should have followed the temperature setting.  If it was hard, you didn’t have the heat on long enough.  When it is on that temperature long enough, it would be easily be out .  Don’t worry, damaging the 575 is ok, you have 950X on hand.
> 
> Be cautious though, don’t crank up heat too high and or fan speed too much. You may blow away the little MLCC capacitors or resistors



it looks like this now. i think still ok?


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 22, 2018)

Damn, those are huge heat sinks for the 9038Pro.  Yes, your clock is still fine, only the shield cover is off.  But why worry.  Apply some flux, and blow around and tweezer it off.  Keeps the temperature at 390F...unless your is not accurate


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Damn, those are huge heat sinks for the 9038Pro.  Yes, your clock is still fine, only the shield cover is off.  But why worry.  Apply some flux, and blow around and tweezer it off.  Keeps the temperature at 390F...unless your is not accurate


i am using this
https://www.banggood.com/YIHUA-8858...lHlPYFrSrfshXZSQWMu9Bamx-3xKvYYRoC27AQAvD_BwE


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Should have followed the temperature setting.  If it was hard, you didn’t have the heat on long enough.  When it is on that temperature long enough, it would be easily be out .  Don’t worry, damaging the 575 is ok, you have 950X on hand.
> 
> Be cautious though, don’t crank up heat too high and or fan speed too much. You may blow away the little MLCC capacitors or resistors


Hi, been a while!
nice to hear you're still on it!
Right the heat gun; do you have to use a square/rectangular nozzle, OR is the round one fine? cheers!


----------



## demos (Sep 22, 2018)

You can use a copper wire and solder iron like this to remove it

remember to use plenty of solder flux on the solder joint when heating


----------



## Whitigir

demos said:


> You can use a copper wire and solder iron like this to remove it
> 
> remember to use plenty of solder flux on the solder joint when heating


Definitely ! This was one way to do it,  but you need to watch a YouTube video or so 



Paul Staples said:


> Hi, been a while!
> nice to hear you're still on it!
> Right the heat gun; do you have to use a square/rectangular nozzle, OR is the round one fine? cheers!


I use round tip, and smaller


----------



## b0bb

littlexx26 said:


> i was following your 370f and 390f rule, however the solder is hard as rock. so i cranked up the temp and resulted the lid detached. so scared now


The board has a lot of copper on the ground planes, you have to heat the board faster than the copper can cool it without overheating the immediate area.  

Heat both sides of the board, the square area bounded by the 9038s, regulator and resistors.

Bring it slowly to temp slowly at 350 ºF. 7-10mins each side alternating every 2-3 mins, keep the wand moving constantly to avoid hotspots

When the solder starts melting it expands, the XO board will start to float on the solder, remove it with tweezers.You might not see the floating on your board as some of the solder has been removed.


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 22, 2018)

@b0bb , I was thinking about using Toshin Kyogo capacitors to replaces these Nichicon fine gold.  Do you think it is a good idea ? Or shall I just replace them all with FP-Nichicon.  I kinda like the FP-Nichicon signature.  These guys are 47uF-25V

I use older picture, the blue caps at the clock regulators is out.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Definitely ! This was one way to do it,  but you need to watch a YouTube video or so
> 
> 
> I use round tip, and smaller


thanks friend.


----------



## Whitigir

@demos , I didn’t notice the 950X picture at first look! Are you playing with it ? X_X.  Keep us updated


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> @b0bb , I was thinking about using Toshin Kyogo capacitors to replaces these Nichicon fine gold.  Do you think it is a good idea ? Or shall I just replace them all with FP-Nichicon.  I kinda like the FP-Nichicon signature.  These guys are 47uF-25V
> 
> I use older picture, the blue caps at the clock regulators is out.


Nichicon FP-Caps are a mixed bag for audio circuits, they can alter the sonic signature making it quite cold and etched. 
They are very good as digital power supply bypass.

Post the datasheet the Toshin Kyogo capacitors that you are interested in.

Panasonic FMs on the I/V Balanced section (lower row) is what I will use. LKS use FMs in their previous models, bypass them with low value (100-330pF) glass dielectric caps.
Corning (CGW) makes them, NOS caps show up on ebay every now and then.


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 22, 2018)

b0bb said:


> Nichicon FP-Caps are a mixed bag for audio circuits, they can alter the sonic signature making it quite cold and etched.
> They are very good as digital power supply bypass.
> 
> Post the datasheet the Toshin Kyogo capacitors that you are interested in.
> ...



Here is the spec of the TK
http://www.toshinkk.co.jp/product/productPDF/P65_UTSJ.pdf

I am seeking cleaner bass lines and better punches with better vertical presentations of soundstage.  I had other experiences with these goals with United-Chemicon.  Not sure if I want to drop them in here


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Here is the spec of the TK
> http://www.toshinkk.co.jp/product/productPDF/P65_UTSJ.pdf
> 
> I am seeking cleaner bass lines and better punches with better vertical presentations of soundstage.  I had other experiences with these goals with United-Chemicon.  Not sure if I want to drop them in here



The Panasonic FM + CGW will probably fit that role, they have a slightly leaner presentation than the Nichicon FGs but dynamic punch improves somewhat once the CGWs are added.
The Nichicons (Muse/FG) sounds very lush at the expense of blurring out soundstage details.

The TK caps seem like a side grade of the existing Nichicon FG caps, endurance under hot conditions not much better, 85°C for 1000 hours

I see no harm in trying if you do not mind the hassle of removing the caps


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> The Panasonic FM + CGW will probably fit that role, they have a slightly leaner presentation than the Nichicon FGs but dynamic punch improves somewhat once the CGWs are added.
> *The Nichicons (Muse/FG) sounds very lush at the expense of blurring out soundstage details.*
> 
> The TK caps seem like a side grade of the existing Nichicon FG caps, endurance under hot conditions not much better, 85°C for 1000 hours
> ...



Thank you! I agree very much with what you said above.  I will try and look for Panasonic one


----------



## demos (Oct 5, 2018)

It's the CVHD950x I had put on earlier





Whitigir said:


> @demos , I didn’t notice the 950X picture at first look! Are you playing with it ? X_X.  Keep us updated




I just got a AOCJY3 deliver yesterday, still waiting for the dual LT3045 PCB, but can try with the tps7a47 for now

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/aocjy3-100.000mhz-f/abracon

The AOCJY3 is not gold plated like your AOCJY2 btw


----------



## Whitigir

demos said:


> It's the CVHD950x I had put on earlier
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Awesome! Please keep us updated with details about your progress ^_^


----------



## littlexx26

how to clean the flux now? very messy


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 23, 2018)

Use pure alcohol and , tooth brush and towel ? How did they get everywhere like that ? 0_0


----------



## b0bb (Sep 23, 2018)

Moved the Pulsar over from the 003 to the 004

1)Stock CCHD575




2)Extracted Stock XO




3)XO Pads on PCB




4) XO socket taped down waiting for soldering




5) Underside of board below XO socket




6) Add flux and solder.




7)Cleanup flux




8)Pulsar in its new home


----------



## b0bb

Some of the desoldering tools I use

Yihua 8508D+ hot-air wand on the left, Metcal hot tweezer on the right.
Hot-air wand for the doing most of the heating, Metcal tweezer for the last step as I wanted to keep the Stock XO.



Closeup of the hot tweezer.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 23, 2018)

DAC left powered on about 12hours to let the OCXO settle.

Presentation especially sound stage is considerably wider than stock, I use the HD800 which has a wide soundstage so this came as a pleasant surprised when it widened even more.
No longer falls apart on complex EDM type tracks, makes easy work of the highly compressed EDM albums.

Overall a very balanced presentation, instrumental and acoustic music does not lose its subtle details, instead little details like the musicians shuffling around while playing become more discernible.


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> Dac has been powered on about 12hours to let the OCXO settle.
> 
> Presentation especially sound stage is considerably wider than stock, I use the HD800 which has a wide soundstage so this came as a pleasant surprised when it widened even more.
> No longer falls apart on complex EDM type tracks, makes easy work of the highly compressed EDM albums.
> ...


very nice work!


----------



## xiamen

b0bb said:


> Moved the Pulsar over from the 003 to the 004
> 
> 1)Stock CCHD575
> 
> ...


Hi, do you know if and when the Pulsar team are back in action. Their website says Autumn but we are well into Autumn now.


----------



## b0bb

xiamen said:


> Hi, do you know if and when the Pulsar team are back in action. Their website says Autumn but we are well into Autumn now.



I don't know when they will be back. Just check in with them every couple of months.

I was on the wait list for 1 year for the one you see above.


----------



## xiamen

b0bb said:


> I don't know when they will be back. Just check in with them every couple of months.
> 
> I was on the wait list for 1 year for the one you see above.


Such a coincidence I got a reply back from Mauro just now. The 100 mhz is not available but he said the 98mhz or the 90mhz will provide exactly the same performance. So I order one of those. Any thoughts on frequency difference? They have good sales price on now as well.


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> Such a coincidence I got a reply back from Mauro just now. The 100 mhz is not available but he said the 98mhz or the 90mhz will provide exactly the same performance. So I order one of those. Any thoughts on frequency difference? They have good sales price on now as well.



Are you sure ? Why don’t you use the Abracon instead


----------



## b0bb

xiamen said:


> Such a coincidence I got a reply back from Mauro just now. The 100 mhz is not available but he said the 98mhz or the 90mhz will provide exactly the same performance. So I order one of those. Any thoughts on frequency difference? They have good sales price on now as well.


9038 has a register that contains the ratio between the master clock and the max audio bitclock.

If the frequency of the master clock is changed this register value needs to be altered, the microcontroller in the front panel display programs the 9038, the software inside also has to be changed.

If you still want to try the 98MHz clock, check with Pulsar to see if they will accept a return in the event this does not work for you.


----------



## demos

b0bb said:


> 9038 has a register that contains the ratio between the master clock and the max audio bitclock.
> 
> If the frequency of the master clock is changed this register value needs to be altered, the microcontroller in the front panel display programs the 9038, the software inside also has to be changed.
> 
> If you still want to try the 98MHz clock, check with Pulsar to see if they will accept a return in the event this does not work for you.




They'll advice you to buy a cheap 98Mhz clock to try first


----------



## xiamen

b0bb said:


> 9038 has a register that contains the ratio between the master clock and the max audio bitclock.
> 
> If the frequency of the master clock is changed this register value needs to be altered, the microcontroller in the front panel display programs the 9038, the software inside also has to be changed.
> 
> If you still want to try the 98MHz clock, check with Pulsar to see if they will accept a return in the event this does not work for you.


A side question. Will this TCXO https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...rZUKoXNti3Px/HlAQTf5H83Uv/RiuOOGSJ3YFSrKRN5Kx be a fit for replacement?


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Are you sure ? Why don’t you use the Abracon instead


Don't think I can. I think my vr only provides 200mA.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 23, 2018)

xiamen said:


> A side question. Will this TCXO https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/SiTime/SiT5157AI-FK-33N0-100000000X?qs=/ha2pyFadugZdIM%2b2xzrZUKoXNti3Px/HlAQTf5H83Uv/RiuOOGSJ3YFSrKRN5Kx be a fit for replacement?



It is the right type for voltage and output
However it is not a quartz XO, it uses MEMS (microelectromechanical system), a miniature machine in silicon that has both mechanical and electronic components.

Not sure which direction it will take the LKS to.

I bought it to try, quite a bit smaller than the CCHD-575X.
It has to be soldered with paste as there are 10 contacts on that little package.


----------



## littlexx26

successfully installed 575X. First time not very good skills. However, I cannot hear any difference form stock 575.


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> successfully installed 575X. First time not very good skills. However, I cannot hear any difference form stock 575.


Congratulation! You worried me, am doing I couldn’t sleep...

Let’s your 575x burn in for a couple days , and enjoy!


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Congratulation! You worried me, am doing I couldn’t sleep...
> 
> Let’s your 575x burn in for a couple days , and enjoy!


I use solder iron and solder. I found this is faster and easier. I put a little bit solder paste onto the contacts of the mainboard. Then put the 575X onto it carefully. Then use solder and solder iron to secure it.


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 24, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> I use solder iron and solder. I found this is faster and easier. I put a little bit solder paste onto the contacts of the mainboard. Then put the 575X onto it carefully. Then use solder and solder iron to secure it.


Excellent! I know why you were afraid previously then...because you didn’t want to hot air the 575x and have the lid off like the stock one ....I am slow.  I am glad you had it worked out ! Congratulations !

One thing to keep in mind, the master clock upgrade will scale up with your source quality.  So, if your source is not capable, you will not observe much improvements


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Excellent! I know why you were afraid previously then...because you didn’t want to hot air the 575x and have the lid off like the stock one ....I am slow.  I am glad you had it worked out ! Congratulations !
> 
> One thing to keep in mind, the master clock upgrade will scale up with your source quality.  So, if your source is not capable, you will not observe much improvements


I am currently using windows notebook connecting ifi igalvanic and micro iusb3.0 before entering dac. should I upgrade the source?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> I am currently using windows notebook connecting ifi igalvanic and micro iusb3.0 before entering dac. should I upgrade the source?


The source is very important, but it won’t be cheap


----------



## littlexx26

Is the PERF10’s rubidium oscillator found in Esoteric G1 better than Pulsar?


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 24, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> Is the PERF10’s rubidium oscillator found in Esoteric G1 better than Pulsar?


frequency precision of ±0.05 ppb

That is a very good and bold statement there .  Pulsar is 0.1ppm .  Do notice part per Billion and part per million unit 

I want a clock of Uranium or vibranium crystals 

Ok, all joking aside, your source need to be upto performances.  Otherwise, your lks004 will not scale up.  My experienced.  I never wanted to upgrade the clock on 004, given that I could.  I had lock losing problem with my wm1Z, but still, I didn’t bother.  Until I had my r2r7, this DAC is so picky about source.  I had to upgrade to a dedicatedly built PC, and while my r2r7 scaled up to another level, my 004 sit still, no longer losing lock,  but performances was like a sitting duck....

So, I found out later that lks004 generate it own master clock, and this 100Mhz is the culprit.  I started out playing with 950X as you have seen.  Now I am happily sitting with Abracon 2.  The one thing I do notice is that the sub-bass and lower bass become more ample, while the lush mid is veiling up some of the fine details of Vocal goodness and lower trebles.

So about now, I am itching for replacing the fine gold Nichicon.  Still waiting on my capacitors to come

Back on the clock and source clock.  It doesn’t matter if your 004 clock has 1PPB or 100PPB, if your source clock is 1PPM, then your 004 will only work as good as that 1PPM.  That was my assumption from what I experienced and with ears....may be @b0bb will have a better explaination


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> frequency precision of ±0.05 ppb
> 
> That is a very good and bold statement there .  Pulsar is 0.1ppm .  Do notice part per Billion and part per million unit
> 
> ...


are U talking about caps in the 004 or your DIY PC? What caps are you getting? What does your PC now consist of please?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> are U talking about caps in the 004 or your DIY PC? What caps are you getting? What does your PC now consist of please?


My Pc is the same.  I am thinking about replacing the fine gold caps inside the 004.  There are 16 of them or so


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> frequency precision of ±0.05 ppb
> Back on the clock and source clock.  It doesn’t matter if your 004 clock has 1PPB or 100PPB, if your source clock is 1PPM, then your 004 will only work as good as that 1PPM.  That was my assumption from what I experienced and with ears....may be @b0bb will have a better explaination


 what is your ppb on the 004, and what is the ppb on your source/ DIY PC clock?


----------



## Whitigir

https://abracon.com/Precisiontiming/AOCJY2.pdf

10ppb On 004

About the same on the Pinkfaun.  Just that Pinkfaun ages faster


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> https://abracon.com/Precisiontiming/AOCJY2.pdf
> 
> 10ppb On 004
> 
> About the same on the Pinkfaun.  Just that Pinkfaun ages faster



Would the ABracon be beneficial to me in the 004 with my current PLAYER PC:

MSI Z370i GAMING PRO CARBON AC mini-ITX + Intel® HD Integrated Graphics 630.
Intel Core i7 Coffee Lake 8700 SE Gen.8 2.9GHz LGA1151 TDP 35W CPU.
Pink Faun i2s Bridge PCI-e (expansion/riser) Card. (no OCXO)
Samsung (only 250GB) 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW (x1).
Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K.
Streacom st-fc9b-opt-alpha PC Fanless Chassis.


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> Would the ABracon be beneficial to me in the 004 with my current PLAYER PC:
> 
> MSI Z370i GAMING PRO CARBON AC mini-ITX + Intel® HD Integrated Graphics 630.
> Intel Core i7 Coffee Lake 8700 SE Gen.8 2.9GHz LGA1151 TDP 35W CPU.
> ...



It should be, but could your 004 handle the Abracon 02 ? Pinkfaun TCXO is down to 5PPM I think, while the stock 575 is about 50PPB


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> It should be, but could your 004 handle the Abracon 02 ? Pinkfaun TCXO is down to 5PPM I think, while the stock 575 is about 50PPB


I don't know if my version of 004 could handle the  abracon?


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> I am currently using windows notebook connecting ifi igalvanic and micro iusb3.0 before entering dac. should I upgrade the source?


Here is a take on reclocking and galvanic isolation from the Pulsar clock people. Check post #82

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/258789-pulsar-clock-ultra-low-noise-ocxo-9.html


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> Here is a take on reclocking and galvanic isolation from the Pulsar clock people. Check post #82
> 
> https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/258789-pulsar-clock-ultra-low-noise-ocxo-9.html



Definitely asynchronous is cheaper as it isn’t too picky or sound horrible when a source is bad.  But it negatives side is that it does not scale up when your source is improved unless upgraded the master clock 


Paul Staples said:


> I don't know if my version of 004 could handle the  abracon?



Check this Chip.  If it look similar, it can handle Abracon 2.  If it does not, you are out of luck.  There are only 2 versions so far


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Definitely asynchronous is cheaper as it isn’t too picky or sound horrible when a source is bad.  But it negatives side is that it does not scale up when your source is improved unless upgraded the master clock
> 
> 
> Check this Chip.  If it look similar, it can handle Abracon 2.  If it does not, you are out of luck.  There are only 2 versions so far


thanks, I'll check tomorrow!


----------



## xiamen

demos said:


> How is the bass, does it sound warmer on the bid clock?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Demo, have you got this into the LKS 004 already? Can you share how you did it? Thanks.


----------



## b0bb

littlexx26 said:


> Is the PERF10’s rubidium oscillator found in Esoteric G1 better than Pulsar?



That is a 10MHz clock, LKS needs 100MHz, not directly comparable.

In practice you will need a secondary 100MHz oscillator driving the LKS clock inputs, This oscillator  is slaved the 10MHz reference.
The actual stability is determined by this secondary oscillator not the reference.

I find this type of arrangement too complicated compared to just adding a 100MHz OCXO directly


----------



## littlexx26

can mod the lks to accept 10mhz?


----------



## b0bb

littlexx26 said:


> can mod the lks to accept 10mhz?


The 10Mhz reference has to be multiplied by 10x to get 100MHz, the jitter also increases 10x.
(This may make the result worse than the stock XO)

Why do you want to do that ?


----------



## littlexx26

b0bb said:


> The 10Mhz reference has to be multiplied by 10x to get 100MHz, the jitter also increases 10x.
> (This may make the result worse than the stock XO)
> 
> Why do you want to do that ?


so I can use xo esoteric using?


----------



## b0bb

littlexx26 said:


> so I can use xo esoteric using?


Look for something called a PLXO, low cost ones are around $ 2700 USD, you will get phase noise performance similar to the stock XO.
Mouser or Digikey do not sell these devices.

You will have to build a power supply and convert the Output to 3.3V HCMOS level for the LKS.

If you heard no improvement with the 575X you added, expect a similar experience with this scheme.


----------



## Whitigir

Your source clocks has to be good enough for the lks004 to scale up, otherwise


----------



## littlexx26

so the simple way is to build a pc using high end gaming board with pink faun usb board?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> so the simple way is to build a pc using high end gaming board with pink faun usb board?


The most important for a PC gotta be LPS first, then Motherboard and others later


----------



## demos (Sep 27, 2018)

xiamen said:


> Hi Demo, have you got this into the LKS 004 already? Can you share how you did it? Thanks.



I am preparing to get install it to the 004. Going to move my home in a few months so doing this on and off.

Meanwhile I still enjoy how the cvhd950x sound on the 004 a lot. Forget the jitter number, the 950x just sound way better than the 575, stage, separation, etc

I use a cable moded sony SA5000 for now. The 004 is my 1st hight end DAC, after some cap tweak on the headphone amp and clock change on the 004, the music just never sound this great on my sa5000.




Place the AOCJY3 in to show the size

A 5V regulated power can tap from the nichicon cap cap mark red & blue on the PCB, It's the supply for the clock Vr. You can remove the nichicon cap to get power from the pcb hole.

I am going to use the 5V USB from my computer to power the tps7a4700 temporarily, So I add a EMI filter before the tps7a4700 for now


----------



## Whitigir

Wait, your 004 uses Muse KZ series ? Mine is fine gold  definitely going to swap out caps lol


----------



## xiamen

demos said:


> I am preparing to get install it to the 004. Going to move my home in a few months so doing this on and off.
> 
> Meanwhile I still enjoy how the cvhd950x sound on the 004 a lot. Forget the jitter number, the 950x just sound way better than the 575, stage, separation, etc
> 
> ...


Is the blue mark for ground and the red mark active? Where would the tps7a4700 output goes to on the LKS 004? Do you have to remove the original vr and the muse caps?


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Definitely asynchronous is cheaper as it isn’t too picky or sound horrible when a source is bad.  But it negatives side is that it does not scale up when your source is improved unless upgraded the master clock
> 
> 
> Check this Chip.  If it look similar, it can handle Abracon 2.  If it does not, you are out of luck.  There are only 2 versions so far



this is my chip:




...any good for abracon?


----------



## Whitigir

Unfortunately not, you shall look toward 950x or pulsar


----------



## demos

Whitigir said:


> Wait, your 004 uses Muse KZ series ? Mine is fine gold  definitely going to swap out caps lol




I want to replace them with Panasonic FM too, after settling play with the clock, LOL


----------



## demos

xiamen said:


> Is the blue mark for ground and the red mark active? Where would the tps7a4700 output goes to on the LKS 004? Do you have to remove the original vr and the muse caps?



Yes red is + 5V. If use external power for the clock, The clock need to wire the power separately from the 004 PCB, 3.3V connect to the clock's Vdd and GND ,Only Clock RF output to the 004. Do Not connect The external 3.3V to the 004 PCB.

You don't have to remove the stock Vr, Just leave it there, Tape the open pad for safety. Unless you want to use external power permanently.


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> The most important for a PC gotta be LPS first, then Motherboard and others later


https://jcat.eu/product/400w-pc-linear-power-supply/
very expensive


----------



## b0bb (Sep 25, 2018)

demos said:


> Yes red is + 5V. If use external power for the clock, The clock need to wire the power separately from the 004 PCB, 3.3V connect to the clock's Vdd and GND ,Only Clock RF output to the 004. Do Not connect The external 3.3V to the 004 PCB.
> 
> You don't have to remove the stock Vr, Just leave it there, Tape the open pad for safety. Unless you want to use external power permanently.


A couple of things to keep in mind

1)External supply is OK to get the OCXO running and for verifying general function.
2)(1) is *not* OK for proper evaluation of OCXO performance, for that, replicate what LKS has done, low noise regulator (LT1963) +  ultra low noise second stage regulator (TI 7A47 )
3)If you intend to reuse the 5V input to the LT3042 check that LKS is still using the LT1963 as the first stage


----------



## Paul Staples (Sep 25, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> https://jcat.eu/product/400w-pc-linear-power-supply/
> very expensive



Another possibility: (for mobo)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZEROZONE...996943?hash=item1ea350bf4f:g:WU0AAOSwLVZV3ZTL *(x4)*
+
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/220V-200...927187?hash=item4d51077d93:g:lhgAAOSwW6JYXplE *(x1)*










'THIS' could be good for your mobo power (CPU 12v ATX 12v/5v/3.3v)






For anyone interested: (not usually required)....

The −12 V supply was primarily used to provide the negative supply voltage for RS-232 ports and is also used by one pin on conventional PCI slots primarily to provide a reference voltage for some models of sound cards.

Formerly −5 V (     white wire), absent in modern power supplies; it was optional in ATX and ATX12V v1.2 and deleted since v1.3. A −5 V output was originally required because it was supplied on the ISA bus; it was removed in later versions of the ATX standard, as it became obsolete with the removal of the ISA bus expansion slots (the ISA bus itself is still found in any computer which is compatible with the old IBM PC specification.

PS_ON (power on) is a signal from the motherboard to the power supply. When the line is connected to ground (by the motherboard), the power supply turns on. It is internally pulled up to +5 V inside the power supply. A control signal that is pulled up to +5 V by the PSU and must be driven low to turn on the PSU.

PG - PWR_OK ("power good") is an output from the power supply that indicates that its output has stabilized and is ready for use. It remains low for a brief time (100–500 ms) after the PS_ON# signal is pulled low. A control signal that is low when other outputs have not yet reached, or are about to leave, correct voltages.

The +5 VSB supply is used to produce trickle power to provide the soft-power feature of ATX when a PC is turned off, as well as powering the real-time clock to conserve the charge of the CMOS battery. +5 VSB (+5 V standby) supplies power even when the rest of the supply wire lines are off. This can be used to power the circuitry that controls the power-on signal.

OR THIS:




https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192527403829?ul_noapp=true


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 26, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> https://jcat.eu/product/400w-pc-linear-power-supply/
> very expensive



If you want to build a PC, join the thread here

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-importances-of-good-pc-as-digital-transport.880884/

There are no cheap out properly done LPS for a PC.

This is what I use, and it is just awesome.  I would never believed that lks004 could gain so much, until I got my PC and observed no performances gains, then I found out about the clock, and why
l


For people who want to run the Pc off a battery supply, or cheaper.  Ofcourse, buy a huge battery and then this


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> If you want to build a PC, join the thread here
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-importances-of-good-pc-as-digital-transport.880884/
> 
> ...


the jcat I post and your hdplex seem are the same.


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> the jcat I post and your hdplex seem are the same.


Yes, they are HDPlex, period


----------



## Paul Staples (Sep 26, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Unfortunately not, you shall look toward 950x or pulsar



with pulsar, I assume you mean the 100.000000 MHz?


----------



## b0bb

@Whitigir, what temps are you seeing on top of the 9038 chip with the Abracon OCXO ?

With the AOCJY1 it is running quite hot at 78ºC, with the stock XO it was 72.3ºC
 

Measured at the center of the chip
 


Stock XO temps


----------



## demos

b0bb said:


> @Whitigir, what temps are you seeing on top of the 9038 chip with the Abracon OCXO ?
> 
> With the AOCJY1 it is running quite hot at 78ºC, with the stock XO it was 72.3ºC
> 
> ...



That is hot on the 9038, I running mine with case open measure with IR temp meter, about 45C on 9038 heatsink. With stock/950 XO[/QUOTE]


----------



## b0bb

demos said:


> That is hot on the 9038, I running mine with case open measure with IR temp meter, about 45C on 9038 heatsink. With stock/950 XO


I am using a thermocouple to get as close to the silicon as possible.

Some IR meters have red dot to help aim it better, if not that is the average air temp  around the heatsink.
I am curious about the overall temp rise.


----------



## demos

b0bb said:


> A couple of things to keep in mind
> 
> 1)External supply is OK to get the OCXO running and for verifying general function.
> 2)(1) is *not* OK for proper evaluation of OCXO performance, for that, replicate what LKS has done, low noise regulator (LT1963) +  ultra low noise second stage regulator (TI 7A47 )
> 3)If you intend to reuse the 5V input to the LT3042 check that LKS is still using the LT1963 as the first stage




computer USB power is very noise, a liner first stage is definitely a better choice, it use the same GND with 9038 is even better.

Yes, LT1963 is the first stage to the LT3042.  And Do you know what does the other 3 LM317 are for on the 004? I never have a chance to take out the PCB yet, Thanks!


----------



## demos

b0bb said:


> I am using a thermocouple to get as close to the silicon as possible.
> 
> Some IR meters have red dot to help aim it better, if not that is the average air temp  around the heatsink.
> I am curious about the overall temp rise.



Check it with the IR window face the heatsink, about 1.5cm IR spot size on close distance. Sometime IR is not very accurate on shiny metal surface


----------



## b0bb

demos said:


> computer USB power is very noise, a liner first stage is definitely a better choice, it use the same GND with 9038 is even better.
> 
> Yes, LT1963 is the first stage to the LT3042.  And Do you know what does the other 3 LM317 are for on the 004? I never have a chance to take out the PCB yet, Thanks!



I2S/SPDIF logic
Front panel controller
I2S isolator for Amanero

There are a couple of AMS1117 and LT1763 that I have to finish the trace.


----------



## b0bb

demos said:


> Check it with the IR window face the heatsink, about 1.5cm IR spot size on close distance. Sometime IR is not very accurate on shiny metal surface


15mm (1.5cm) is about the size of the 9038 package, so spot size is large relative to the size of the chip.


----------



## demos

b0bb said:


> I2S/SPDIF logic
> Front panel controller
> I2S isolator for Amanero
> 
> There are a couple of AMS1117 and LT1763 that I have to finish the trace.




So it doesn't seem those chips use a lot of power, But the LM317 and their rectifier are quite hot there.  Weird Implementation by LKS.


----------



## xiamen

b0bb said:


> A couple of things to keep in mind
> 
> 1)External supply is OK to get the OCXO running and for verifying general function.
> 2)(1) is *not* OK for proper evaluation of OCXO performance, for that, replicate what LKS has done, low noise regulator (LT1963) +  ultra low noise second stage regulator (TI 7A47 )
> 3)If you intend to reuse the 5V input to the LT3042 check that LKS is still using the LT1963 as the first stage


I am thinking of getting 5v dc input from my HD-PLEX linear psu, and getting a decent VR (have in mind the Pulsar power http://www.pulsarclock.com/Power.html). Hoping this will be an improvement on LT1963+TI 7A47.  What do you think?


----------



## Whitigir

Pulsar Power is good but you need to tap in onto the traces at the places where @b0bb suggester


demos said:


> That is hot on the 9038, I running mine with case open measure with IR temp meter, about 45C on 9038 heatsink. With stock/950 XO


[/QUOTE]


b0bb said:


> I am using a thermocouple to get as close to the silicon as possible.
> 
> Some IR meters have red dot to help aim it better, if not that is the average air temp  around the heatsink.
> I am curious about the overall temp rise.



I have top down, and center heatsink raise upto 61-62C when at 192Khz BW01. Normally sitting at 55C.

_Definitely not recommended for anyone to just measure like this for fun.  Your hands can slip, and the lead can short out whatever it comes together with lol...
_


----------



## Whitigir

I freaking love the Abracon V2.  All I need now is new capacitors to better enjoy the output stages of the LKS004.  I had been running it on for burn-in

Since the last message to Pulsar, they don’t and will not carry 100Mhz anymore.  I am so glad to have been able to put in my lks004 this Abracon SC cut Crystal


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> I have top down, and center heatsink raise upto 61-62C when at 192Khz BW01. Normally sitting at 55C.



Thanks, that is consistent with I am seeing

With top cover off, idle, I am seeing 56ºC

With cover on, playing at 352kHz sampling I am seeing 78ºC


----------



## b0bb (Sep 26, 2018)

xiamen said:


> I am thinking of getting 5v dc input from my HD-PLEX linear psu, and getting a decent VR (have in mind the Pulsar power http://www.pulsarclock.com/Power.html). Hoping this will be an improvement on LT1963+TI 7A47.  What do you think?



The second stage regulator should be placed as close as possible to the XO.

The TI 7A47 should be used if you intend to use the Abracon OCXOs mentioned in this thread as it has a bigger heat spreader at the back of the chip
Pulsar's regulator has 800mA max current output and the is no place to attach a heatsink, I bought one when I got the XO.

The output current of the regulator has to be reduced when operating in a hot environment of 50ºC and above, especially with the top cover on.
This is called derating, at 50% derating (ADM7150 uses a smaller package compared to the 7A47) this is 400mA which is getting quite close to the 330mA on the Abracon  after warm-up.


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> Thanks, that is consistent with I am seeing
> 
> With top cover off, idle, I am seeing 56ºC
> 
> With cover on, playing at 352kHz sampling I am seeing 78ºC


Good to know about this.  By the way, do you have any information about the 9038Pro operation temperature range ?


----------



## littlexx26

b0bb said:


> Thanks, that is consistent with I am seeing
> 
> With top cover off, idle, I am seeing 56ºC
> 
> With cover on, playing at 352kHz sampling I am seeing 78ºC


how about playing dsd512?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> how about playing dsd512?


Probably much hotter, but USB interface is very bad, so I am not too crazy about Native DSD on 004, which I was previously.

Since upgrading the OCXO clocks, and my Pinkfaun I2S, there is no reason to do DSD512 anymore.  Unless I can upgrade the usb module into something else

I look forward to a day where I can hook the DSD1024 into it lol


----------



## demos

Hot environment is not a bad thing for OCXO, less current draw from the oven, less power is needed by the OCXO overall.


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Good to know about this.  By the way, do you have any information about the 9038Pro operation temperature range ?


Max junction temp is around 125ºC.

Allowing 20ºC drop between surface of the silicon die and the probe on the heatsink, this leaves about 27 ºC absolute margin at a temp of 78ºC

In practice reliability and longevity of the chip drops the closer the limit is approached.


----------



## b0bb

demos said:


> So it doesn't seem those chips use a lot of power, But the LM317 and their rectifier are quite hot there.  Weird Implementation by LKS.


That is normal for the 317. The design dates back to the 1970's and requires a drop of a 5V or more for the regulator to function at peak performance creating lots of waste heat.


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> Max junction temp is around 125ºC.
> 
> Allowing 20ºC drop between surface of the silicon die and the probe on the heatsink, this leaves about 27 ºC absolute margin at a temp of 78ºC
> 
> In practice reliability and longevity of the chip drops the closer the limit is approached.


Thank you! So, do not do DSD512 ? Because it can get super duper hot with DSD, and I have yet to measure it


----------



## b0bb (Sep 27, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Thank you! So, do not do DSD512 ? Because it can get super duper hot with DSD, and I have yet to measure it


The max junction temp is a "cannot exceed" parameter, go over it and the chip damage is irreversible. 

Did you get the AOCJY1 as well?
It is much smaller and an insulating boot can be built to  reduce the heat leakage. DSD512 is safe to play if you keep chip temp down.

I built one with heat reflecting tape to reflect heat back into the OCXO, the bonus is the power consumption also dropped and you get to put back the top lid.


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> The max junction temp is a "cannot exceed" parameter, go over it and the chip damage is irreversible.
> 
> Did you get the AOCJY1 as well?
> It is much smaller and an insulating boot can be built to  reduce the heat leakage. DSD512 is safe to play if you keep chip temp down.
> ...



I see, yes, I still keep Abracon 1.  So, what is your temperature with Pulsar ?


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> So, what is your temperature with Pulsar ?



72ºC


----------



## b0bb

littlexx26 said:


> how about playing dsd512?



My player goes to DSD256, runs slightly cooler than 352kHz.


----------



## littlexx26

what about change that two transformers? like silver plated OCC transformer? can this improve sq?


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 27, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> what about change that two transformers? like silver plated OCC transformer? can this improve sq?


It won’t matter, unless your source improve.  All I can say is that if upgrading the stock clock to the 575*X *and you observe no improvements, you need better source.  Everything else is very very minor

Now I have swapped out the Nichicon fine gold to the FP version.  Judging by the lay-out. This is a decoupling capacitors.  So I tried it on before going to other fine gold, they look to be low-pass Filter Arrays ? Or coupling, could be coupling

Anyways, holy-scchhiiitt....this FP has tons of bass, i was expecting the opposite.  Warmth signature too, totally Nichicon things, it certainly makes big drums sound crazy, lower-mid to mid spectrum has more body.  Now what do I do with the other 8x ? Probably gonna do FP of the same series too.  I will observe this a while more

*Holy-schhiiiittt* the Dynamic punches, it shakes my Stax X_X


----------



## littlexx26

i think this is the clock in ifi micro iusb3.0. should be not as good as 575x?


----------



## demos (Sep 27, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> It won’t matter, unless your source improve.  All I can say is that if upgrading the stock clock to the 575*X *and you observe no improvements, you need better source.  Everything else is very very minor
> 
> Now I have swapped out the Nichicon fine gold to the FP version.  Judging by the lay-out. This is a decoupling capacitors.  So I tried it on before going to other fine gold, they look to be low-pass Filter Arrays ? Or coupling, could be coupling
> 
> ...




I have a headphone amp have a similar class A output stage, I add Panasonic PP film cap to compensate output transistor, it also improve the bass punches a lot. Probably the Nichicon FP cap has very good ripples too LOL

BTW LKS change the solid polymer capacitors from Nichicon FP to some Fujitsu unknow series on the later version 004, which what I got, can't find any datasheet on these cap. It look a lot like the one used on some early Gigabyte motherboards.


----------



## demos

demos said:


> I am preparing to get install it to the 004. Going to move my home in a few months so doing this on and off.
> 
> Meanwhile I still enjoy how the cvhd950x sound on the 004 a lot. Forget the jitter number, the 950x just sound way better than the 575, stage, separation, etc
> 
> ...



Need to make a correction here, the smd part red & blue mark on the pic is Not a capacitor, It's an SMD inductor. To get the 5V regulated power must remove the nichicon cap next to it.


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> i think this is the clock in ifi micro iusb3.0. should be not as good as 575x?


Did you get anymore joy from  575x after more burn in?


----------



## littlexx26

xiamen said:


> Did you get anymore joy from  575x after more burn in?


one very obvious is that after changed to 575x, the noise floor significantly dropped. before with 575, i can here hum from the woofer and ssss from the tweeter when the vol is at max. now with 575x, the hum and ssss are much lower. but i wonder this is unit to unit difference, rather than 575 and 575x difference.


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> one very obvious is that after changed to 575x, the noise floor significantly dropped. before with 575, i can here hum from the woofer and ssss from the tweeter when the vol is at max. now with 575x, the hum and ssss are much lower. but i wonder this is unit to unit difference, rather than 575 and 575x difference.


What do you mean unit to unit? Arent you using the same unit just different clock?


----------



## littlexx26

xiamen said:


> What do you mean unit to unit? Arent you using the same unit just different clock?


i mean the units of ox


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 29, 2018)

Thank you @b0bb For the confirmations about the 8 caps is the same as the 4 caps on RCA

I liked it so much that I went ahead and put in the 8 caps: 2000-5000 hours at 105C  ?

FP caps datasheet, I found an interesting section
http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdf/2012fpcap_catalog_all.pdf


----------



## Whitigir (Sep 30, 2018)

Okay, so YouTube windows 10 can be streamed and output USB into LKS004 under 384Khz PCM ? What in the heck...ok!  Yeah, I know it is upsampled by Windows but whatever, I do browse YouTube for new contents and so on.  This is extra icing on the cake


----------



## demos (Sep 30, 2018)

I got a usb meter to test the power draw of the AOCJY3 clock. The 5V input of the TI 47 drawing about 830mA at cold start up for about 40 second. Then it goes into a lower power mode drawing about 350mA, Then stable at about 250mA after 5 minute. The room temp is about 22C


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y

If you have JRiver you can do it in its internal browser to what upsample your DAC can carry. 



Whitigir said:


> Okay, so YouTube windows 10 can be streamed and output USB into LKS004 under 384Khz PCM ? What in the heck...ok!  Yeah, I know it is upsampled by Windows but whatever, I do browse YouTube for new contents and so on.  This is extra icing on the cake


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Thank you @b0bb For the confirmations about the 8 caps is the same as the 4 caps on RCA
> 
> I liked it so much that I went ahead and put in the 8 caps: 2000-5000 hours at 105C  ?
> 
> ...


I guess you have to take out the main circuit board to do the cap replacements. What are the steps to do that? Anything to watch out for? I don't want to destroy the LKS 004. Thanks.


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> I guess you have to take out the main circuit board to do the cap replacements. What are the steps to do that? Anything to watch out for? I don't want to destroy the LKS 004. Thanks.



Nothing to watch out for, really.  It is a one single board.  Just unhook the front panel, the transformers, the main ac.  Then take out the chassis screws, and board screws (8) there is one board screws under the usb Amanero stack too

Replacing the capacitors is hardest to desolder the capacitors.  You just need to really know what you are doing because the copper cool down very quickly


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> Nothing to watch out for, really.  It is a one single board.  Just unhook the front panel, the transformers, the main ac.  Then take out the chassis screws, and board screws (8) there is one board screws under the usb Amanero stack too
> 
> Replacing the capacitors is hardest to desolder the capacitors.  You just need to really know what you are doing because the copper cool down very quickly


Thanks. Is the board screw under the Amanero easy to get to (do you have to remove the Amanero first?). Also, you mention having to push out pins from the DIL14 using soldering iron. How do you do that. I may have some time this weekend to have a shot at this.


----------



## Whitigir

Just use hot tip on the pins on that dil14, heat it up and push it outward.

The screw under the Amanero board is easy, but clean up and desoldering caps will be a harder task


----------



## Whitigir

So, I have today, compared my LKS004 from I2S input Vs the USB in, which is Amanero Upgraded module, and even with Silver wires for Interconnect.  There are differences immediately.

1/ the USB input when doing 384Khz out, it stuttered and lost locks DPLL at BW01 when cold cranked up, for another 15 minutes or so.  It will not at 192Khz 

2/ Sound performances:  the bass on the USB was warmer, slower, more boomy and less controlled, less dynamic than I2S which is more balanced, more natural, more controlled and overall much more dynamic.  The signature across the board is much more airy, cleaner, and better details with sweeter upper spectrum.

So, what is the differences from hardware again ?

I2S is with Pinkfaun and OCXO with Direct PCIE, USB is only onboard USB without any upgrades.  The 100Mhz in lks004 is Abracon 02 OCXO.  Previously, before upgrading the 100Mhz clock inside lks004, the usb and the upgraded Pinkfaun did not scale differently.

This is definitely a confirmation of how important the source is.  The LKS004 is pretty friendly, if you use Amanero384, it will just be limited by the technicality limitations of 384 *even if you were to upgrade the main clock*.  Now, if you can upgrade the 384 or switch to a superior I2S, your upgrading the clocks 100Mhz will be much more worthy and scaled much different


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> So, I have today, compared my LKS004 from I2S input Vs the USB in, which is Amanero Upgraded module, and even with Silver wires for Interconnect.  There are differences immediately.
> 
> 1/ the USB input when doing 384Khz out, it stuttered and lost locks DPLL at BW01 when cold cranked up, for another 15 minutes or so.  It will not at 192Khz
> 
> ...


so you wont get a nice usb board for the pc and compare again? such as jcat, sotm, Paul pang etc?


----------



## Whitigir (Oct 5, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> so you wont get a nice usb board for the pc and compare again? such as jcat, sotm, Paul pang etc?


I actually don’t have any need now.  I will, only when I can upgrade the Amanero384

The Amanero384 is using crystek, and doesn’t matter if I use OCXO on usbcard like paulpang or...etc...it would be limited by Amanero384 still.  I am very happy with I2S, and Amanero384 is still i2s in the end.  Therefore, I would just wait for any good DDC into I2S if I wanted to use USB, and that is only when I want dsd1024 into lks004 i2s

The reason why I upgraded the clock inside lks004 is the fact that it did not scale up with Pinkfaun i2s and OCXO where my r2r7 did wonderfully.  For both 004 and r2r7, the I2s interface is excellent when done correctly


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> I actually don’t have any need now.  I will, only when I can upgrade the Amanero384
> 
> The Amanero384 is using crystek, and doesn’t matter if I use OCXO on usbcard like paulpang or...etc...it would be limited by Amanero384 still.  I am very happy with I2S, and Amanero384 is still i2s in the end.  Therefore, I would just wait for any good DDC into I2S if I wanted to use USB, and that is only when I want dsd1024 into lks004 i2s


the clock on the amanero can be changed?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> the clock on the amanero can be changed?



Still, you will need to upgrade the firmware too, and Amanero isn’t that good at firmware.  Anything with an Xmos chips will do better, and I already know that my Ibasso Dx200 can do better than 384 already, by playing DSD512 natively.


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Still, you will need to upgrade the firmware too, and Amanero isn’t that good at firmware.  Anything with an Xmos chips will do better, and I already know that my Ibasso Dx200 can do better than 384 already, by playing DSD512 natively.


if use Pinkfaun i2s, just an ordinary hdmi cable works


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> if use Pinkfaun i2s, just an ordinary hdmi cable works


If you ordered that module from Pinkfaun


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> If you ordered that module from Pinkfaun


HDMI - TTL 3.3V

HDMI - TTL 5V

HDMI - LVDS

HDMI - LVDS L/R invert

HDMI - custom pin assignment

which one?
and did you install low-noise OCXO upgrade as well?


----------



## Whitigir

I forgot, I guess you need to email them to confirm.  I got it for my AudioGD which is different

Yes, OCXO is Upgraded


----------



## littlexx26

I just found that the ox of usb board inside lks is 957, which is 25ppm, same as 575x. so if I got a better source, the usb board wont be the bottle neck?


----------



## Whitigir (Oct 7, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> I just found that the ox of usb board inside lks is 957, which is 25ppm, same as 575x. so if I got a better source, the usb board wont be the bottle neck?


It will be, unless you go for I2S.  If you have a good enough source, the file format will matter less.  I know the debate between DSD512 and 192Khz (limitation of I2S over pcie by Pinkfaun).  However, once you get the correct Pinkfaun source, good hdmi cables, and good clock inside lks004, then the file formats will matter less


----------



## littlexx26

I just realized the usb in my lks is upgraded one, but without power module. I asked the dealer, he said the dc right on top of the clocks will make the sound worse


----------



## demos

littlexx26 said:


> I just realized the usb in my lks is upgraded one, but without power module. I asked the dealer, he said the dc right on top of the clocks will make the sound worse



Did you order the standard version or upgraded version 004?


----------



## littlexx26

demos said:


> Did you order the standard version or upgraded version 004?


upgraded


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> I just realized the usb in my lks is upgraded one, but without power module. I asked the dealer, he said the dc right on top of the clocks will make the sound worse


How will it make the clock worsen ? There are like 2cm of air spaces? And that is the linear power supply


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> How will it make the clock worsen ? There are like 2cm of air spaces? And that is the linear power supply


i want to know too. i think the dealer is the only one hear the two


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> i want to know too. i think the dealer is the only one hear the two


Well, I dont know what he meant.  But the amanero384 on lks004 suck pretty bad when doing dsd512.  Those crystek is nowhere close to 10PPB


----------



## b0bb (Oct 8, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> i want to know too. i think the dealer is the only one hear the two


It depends on which version of the the power supply was used. I have seen at least 3 versions. I have the first 2 versions.

1)LT3042 regulator, this is the best
2)OP177 based opamp regulator, not as good, too slow to keep up with the demands of the USB interface
3)TL074 based regulator, this is the worst version, too slow like (2), at the same time lacks the DC precision of (2)

With slight modifications (1) + LKS Upgraded Amanero Combo384 performs as well as the 2nd generation Singxer SU-1 over I2S.
2nd gen SU-1 DDCs use the 45MHz/49MHz for the bitclocks, I have this unit and there is no difference in the SQ  between it and the LKS Amanero up to the limits of the Amanero.

The only thing SU-1s do better is DSD256 and DSD512.

Using the version of the PSU  with the OP177, I find the 004 loses it ability to resolve the fine details in the music and bass transients lose its impact and punch.

Soundstage is blurred and closed in.


----------



## littlexx26 (Oct 8, 2018)

b0bb said:


> It depends on which version of the the power supply was used. I have seen at least 3 versions. I have the first 2 versions.
> 
> 1)LT3042 regulator, this is the best
> 2)OP177 based opamp regulator, not as good, too slow to keep up with the demands of the USB interface
> ...


So for 2) and 3), its better to have no power module like mine? I do not notice the degraded sound quality  you said on my lks


----------



## b0bb (Oct 8, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> So for 2) and 3), its better to have no power module like mine? I do not notice the degraded sound quality  you said on my lks


With your setup, the host powers the board, performance depends on the amount of noise on 5V line from your host and how many processing dongles you have between the host and the dac.


This makes it very device dependent, if its powered internally, the 004 will sound very similar from one device to the next, provided the correct PSU is used.


A good USB isolator/power supply like the one made by iFi cost between 200-300USD.

For the same amount of money you can buy the LKS Enhanced USB interface + LT3042 supply on Ebay or Aliexpress
The mods to increase its performance add about 50USD.

You cannot add the LT3042 supply to your existing USB board without modifying it.

I dislike having multiple dongles between the host and the LKS USB input in an attempt to "enhance" the USB signal, these dongles always take something away from the music

The Singxer SU-1 with I2S output is a popular choice with more than a few 004 owners, see if you can borrow a unit, the difference between it and the buspowered USB Amanero is not subtle


----------



## demos

littlexx26 said:


> So for 2) and 3), its better to have no power module like mine? I do not notice the degraded sound quality  you said on my lks




Basically your Amanero is lacking the low noise power supply module, power directly by your computer 5V USB power. That is not a good power source


----------



## demos (Oct 8, 2018)

The upgraded version with the 5V power supply module, without the yellow inductor, those inductor connect the Amanero borad to the USB 5V cable power


----------



## littlexx26

I am now having ifi igalvanic, micro iusb 3.0 and ipurifier 3. These do make a huge improvement compared to notebook to dac directly


----------



## b0bb

littlexx26 said:


> I am now having ifi igalvanic, micro iusb 3.0 and ipurifier 3. These do make a huge improvement compared to notebook to dac directly



The LT3042 supply powering the USB module will allow you to dispense with the 3 dongles you are currently using.

You noted an improvement using them, this means your existing setup has a lot of noise problems, both on the data lines (igalvanic) and 5V USB power line (ipurifier)


----------



## littlexx26 (Oct 8, 2018)

b0bb said:


> The LT3042 supply powering the USB module will allow you to dispense with the 3 dongles you are currently using.
> 
> You noted an improvement using them, this means your existing setup has a lot of noise problems, both on the data lines (igalvanic) and 5V USB power line (ipurifier)


So, if so unfortunately i got OP177 or TL074 that make the amanero 384 sounds bad, i have no way to improve the sound quality even i use the ifi dongles?


----------



## b0bb (Oct 8, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> So, if so unfortunately i got OP177 or TL074 that make the amanero 384 sounds bad, i have no way to improve the sound quality even i use the ifi dongles?


You do not need to worry as your existing board does not have an internal power supply.

Just get something like the one on Ebay below:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MH-DA003-C...903709?hash=item3f76131cdd:g:kYcAAOSwCGVX2RNt

This replaces your existing USB interface with the internally powered USB interface  + LT3042 regulator.


----------



## littlexx26

understand. i prefer what i have now. at least i can play with different dongles from different manufacturers and feel the differece of their sound signature
i think i am the lucky one got this version of lks


----------



## Whitigir

Yeah, dsd512 is much better on Xmos interface VS Amanero.  I wish for DSD1024 or XU216 Xmos to be available soon


----------



## littlexx26

since my lks usb board draws power from the port. I am considering getting a lps for my micro iusb3.0. I am looking at plixir and uptone lps 1.2. any other suggestions?


----------



## Lennym

b0bb said:


> With your setup, the host powers the board, performance depends on the amount of noise on 5V line from your host and how many processing dongles you have between the host and the dac.
> 
> 
> This makes it very device dependent, if its powered internally, the 004 will sound very similar from one device to the next, provided the correct PSU is used.
> ...


@b0bb

Most of my listening is through USB.

I was a relatively early adopter of the 004.  It has a TL072CP.power supply which you did not list

If I were to buy the LT3042 power supply, what mod would I have to make?

On the other hand, would I get enhanced SQ by simply buying the MH-DA003 Combo384 high-end version of the USB power supply board + LT3042 on eBay that you pointed to?  I assume that's a simple substitution, and not terribly expensive all things considered.  But would that need a mod to optimize?

Many thanks.


----------



## xiamen

Lennym said:


> @b0bb
> 
> Most of my listening is through USB.
> 
> ...





b0bb said:


> You do not need to worry as your existing board does not have an internal power supply.
> 
> Just get something like the one on Ebay below:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/MH-DA003-C...903709?hash=item3f76131cdd:g:kYcAAOSwCGVX2RNt
> ...


Or just simply get the Singxer SU-1 to replace the internal Amanero. While you can upgrade the Amanero, you can upgrade the Singxer SU-1 as well. It came with LD1086 but you can easily mod to sparkoslab's SS1117xx 3.3v https://sparkoslabs.com/singxer-su-1-dac-ss1117-3-3v-regulator/. You can also feed the whole unit from external dc 5v (in my case, i use the hd-plex). In fact, if you enjoy modding, you can also do the clocks and the caps and more .....https://www.head-fi.org/threads/singxer-su-1-owners.839330/page-27. One thing I would say is that Singxer has better firmware and driver in my opinion. Their latest driver released a few months ago is an improvement with no cost involved.


----------



## b0bb (Oct 21, 2018)

Lennym said:


> @b0bb
> 
> Most of my listening is through USB.
> 
> ...



The LT3042 PSU only module is quite common on Ebay. Here is one from a reputable vendor for about 50USD
https://www.ebay.com/itm/142115498378

The combo board + power supply is really only needed for those with the bus powered USB interface.


Mods to this PSU module is pretty simple about 50USD
1)Schottky diodes for the bridge rectifier, these are very low noise fast diodes, black plastic package near power connector.
2)Kemet KOCap polymer tantalum cap for the output smoothing, it can transfer charge into the load very quickly
3)Panasonic OSCON polymer main filter caps. These are the older 1000uF caps, these were the biggest avalable at the time I built this , original value 2200uF is now available
4)Rubycon PML Acrylic film cap  + MLCC ceramic for bypassing (2), C5 cap location in photo
5)Panasonic Acrylic + MLCC ceramic for bypassing current reference resistor, C6 in photo.






https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-8


----------



## Lennym

b0bb said:


> The LT3042 PSU only module is quite common on Ebay. Here is one from a reputable vendor for about 50USD
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/HIFI-LT304...=item2116be698a:g:TwgAAOSwFV9X1sr6:rk:31:pf:0
> 
> The combo board + power supply is really only needed for those with the bus powered USB interface.
> ...



Just so I understand.  Am I correct that the LT3042 PSU only module on ebay is a drop-in replacement for my current module?  And the mods will further increase its performance?

Thanks.


----------



## b0bb

Yes


----------



## Lennym

@b0bb,

On the list of mod parts you left off the WIMA 10uF 50V MKS2.

Change in recommendation, or just an oversight?

Thanks.


----------



## b0bb

Lennym said:


> @b0bb,
> 
> On the list of mod parts you left off the WIMA 10uF 50V MKS2.
> 
> ...



Current versions of the LT3042 board have a film cap there, if yours does not you can add the WIMA


----------



## Forgisound (Oct 19, 2018)

Sorry


----------



## Forgisound

Hi,
Yesterday the new LKS 004 arrived with the Amanero 384 Combo USB port. The port has power from the transformer.

I installed the driver from LKS web, I had trouble reproducing DSD files

After that, I installed a driver from the Amanero website. However, the Foobar DSD256 file does not want to play anyway, JRiver plays like PCM.

Do you have any advice?

How many devices do I need to burn in?

Thanx


----------



## littlexx26

Forgisound said:


> Hi,
> Yesterday the new LKS 004 arrived with the Amanero 384 Combo USB port. The port has power from the transformer.
> 
> I installed the driver from LKS web, I had trouble reproducing DSD files
> ...


have you installed dsd transcoder in foobar? foobar needs this to play dsd256 or above


----------



## Forgisound

littlexx26 said:


> have you installed dsd transcoder in foobar? foobar needs this to play dsd256 or above


I have foo_out_asio and foo_out_sacd components. DSD64 work good.


----------



## littlexx26 (Oct 19, 2018)

Forgisound said:


> I have foo_out_asio and foo_out_sacd components. DSD64 work good.


you need dsd transcoder. but i guess foobar asio can do the same. just try


----------



## Forgisound

littlexx26 said:


> you need dsd transcoder. but i guess foobar asio can do the same. just try


 Thanx
I's my Foobar. How I can find DSD transcoder, have you link?


----------



## littlexx26

Forgisound said:


> Thanx
> I's my Foobar. How I can find DSD transcoder, have you link?


https://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/dsd_transcoder/


----------



## Forgisound

I'm install dsd decoder, dsf component, but Asio have error with dsd256 files. Maybe I must deinstall and new install Foobar.


----------



## aggielaw

Guys, can you help me decipher the following note from LKS? I just bought a Singxer SU-1, set dip switches 2 and 6 to "on" for LKS compatibility as indicated in the Singxer manual, and finally got a signal lock on the LKS using a .3m HDMI cable.  I assumed the diagram of pinouts was the pin assignment on the HDMI cable connectors, and that by setting the Singxer's dip switches according to the manual for LKS compatibility that nothing further was needed.  I have tried 3 HDMI cables so far: Wireworld Platinum Starlight 7, Blue Jeans Cable (Belden), and an Aurum Cables 4k certified cable from Amazon.  I get no lock with the Wireworld, but I get a lock with the other two cables - but no sound comes out.  Sometimes a get a single pop when I push play in roon or pause in roon, but otherwise nothing.The LKS does adjust when I turn upsampling on and off in roon.

Here's Shenzheng Audio's reply to my note asking for help:

"Hi,Howard

The I2S port of DA004 is not HDMI. It can't be used with the HDMI of ordinary HD. This I2S port is prepared for some digital broadcast or external USB interface. Before connecting, be sure to check whether the i2s port definition of the player is the same as decoder or not. Because there are dozens of definitions of i2s ports at present, different device manufacturers may have different signal definitions. Regarding the 44.1K USB lock problem, the DA004 upgrade model has a built-in USB power module, so whether it is connected or not connected to the usb line, there will be a default 44.1K lock signal in the usb channel.

The HDMI cable connected to the LKS should be as short as possible. The dialing code is the position where the No. 2 switch and the No. 6 switch are turned ON.

Please follow the attachment to toggle the switch code.

Kindly check above.

Thanks and best regards!"

I've included a photo of the pinout diagram they sent me, which mirrors the Singxer manual. 

Are there some switches inside the LKS I need to flip to get the Singxer and LKS working together, and if a regular HDMI cable doesn't work, what kind of cable do I need?

Oh, last thing, there is a newer SU-1 firmware, 2.20, that Singxer says explicitly works with LKS.  I have that newer firmware.  Shenzheng Audio has not indicated this is an issue.

Thanks for your ideas!


----------



## xiamen

aggielaw said:


> Guys, can you help me decipher the following note from LKS? I just bought a Singxer SU-1, set dip switches 2 and 6 to "on" for LKS compatibility as indicated in the Singxer manual, and finally got a signal lock on the LKS using a .3m HDMI cable.  I assumed the diagram of pinouts was the pin assignment on the HDMI cable connectors, and that by setting the Singxer's dip switches according to the manual for LKS compatibility that nothing further was needed.  I have tried 3 HDMI cables so far: Wireworld Platinum Starlight 7, Blue Jeans Cable (Belden), and an Aurum Cables 4k certified cable from Amazon.  I get no lock with the Wireworld, but I get a lock with the other two cables - but no sound comes out.  Sometimes a get a single pop when I push play in roon or pause in roon, but otherwise nothing.The LKS does adjust when I turn upsampling on and off in roon.
> 
> Here's Shenzheng Audio's reply to my note asking for help:
> 
> ...


A regular hdmi will work. I tried 3 or 4 different ones, they all work. The singxer firmware 220 and dip switches 2 and 6 on rest off all correct. So no reason it does not work. I would double check all settings, make sure 004 input is i2s-hdmi and set bw level to highest of 15 to start off. Lastly, it may have to do with your roon server and client settings. I would connect the server directly to the su-1 to test. Use another player software, foobar or jriver or a trial version of hqplayer etc and set them to the singxer windows driver. If that works and no reason why it will not, I would check your current roon setup and call their support or roon forum for help.


----------



## xiamen

Forgisound said:


> I'm install dsd decoder, dsf component, but Asio have error with dsd256 files. Maybe I must deinstall and new install Foobar.


You can try with jriver as well. In audio setting, set bitstreaming to custom and add dsd to bitstreaming. Set buffer to say 250 msec. On 004, set bw level to at least 10, may be start at 15 and if that works you can go level to find the minimum bw level you should be on.


----------



## Forgisound

JRiver work, thanx. : Slight_smile:


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb,
thank you for all expert advice.

Have you tried the Allo Digione Signature with the LKS 004?
https://www.allo.com/sparky/digione-signature.html
because of a jitter introduces by ISO7640 maybe the highest quality SPDIF is a better option than USB?

Ps. This is my first post on head-fi


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> thank you for all expert advice.
> 
> Have you tried the Allo Digione Signature with the LKS 004?
> ...



LKS uses the 9038 in asynch reclock mode, this makes it insensitive to jitter (within reason).
The USB interface thru the ISO7640 can be run at the full 384kHz PCM rate at the lowest PLL bandwidth setting without losing lock.

Allo makes good stuff, as you need a Raspberry Pi or Sparky to run the Digione board, I think the better option is to get the Kali Reclocker + Isolator boards and use the I2S input on the DAC instead.

If you can keep the RF noise under control, the I2S input will outperform the SPDIF input at a given sample rate on the LKS 004.


----------



## piaseczek

Currently I'm using an Intel Nuc (with a stock power supply) with a Daphile software on a BW01 setting without a problem. 
Do you think that an Usbridge/Kali+Isolator will improve the sound quality?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Currently I'm using an Intel Nuc (with a stock power supply) with a Daphile software on a BW01 setting without a problem.
> Do you think that an Usbridge/Kali+Isolator will improve the sound quality?


In theory ... yes.

NUC is FCC Class B certified, meaning that it meets quite strict standards for RF noise and EMI emissions.

The LKS 004 inputs are extremely sensitive to RF and EMI noise, classic symptoms of the 004 under stress is the loss of bass extension, lack of dynamic punch and poor closed in sound staging.

The first step is to put the Usbridge/Kali+Isolator in a metal case, the exposed unscreened acrylic case will simply not be sufficient.

The stacked arrangement of processor, isolator and reclocker is not ideal, there needs to be RF absorber sheets in between.

It has potential if you have the time to implement it properly starting with the steps above.


----------



## piaseczek

Thank you b0bb.

Do you think that an iFi iUSBpower is a similar quality power supply for an upgraded Amanero as a LT3042 board? 
I've already have inductors that need to be soldered in order to power the Amanero externally...

Please take a look at an attached photo how it's build, a specification is quite impressive (Output Voltage: 5V±0.5%, Output Current: 1A, Output Noise Floor: 0.1uV)


----------



## piaseczek

The photo


----------



## b0bb (Oct 20, 2018)

RF noise reduction mod to the Singxer SU-1. This feeds the I2S input on my 004.
The stock SU-1 was a disappointment given the hype around its performance.
Keeping RF noise in the SU-1 under control is the first step in getting it to exceed the performance of the onboard Amanero/LT3042 combo.

Fair-rite M6 over the reclock logic
3M AB5100 over the USB side.

The absorber materials chosen to match the operating frequency.



On the bottom right of the picture, note that Singxer used a connector with incomplete shielding.
The exposed USB pins will radiate RF noise into the enclosure.
Picture below shows AB5100 material used to stop this.

Kapton gold tape to prevent the absorber from shorting out nearby components.

Another problem with the SU-1 is that the metal shields of the USB and HDMI connectors are joined.
This is very undesirable given the LKS 004's sensitivity to RF noise.

This is a path for unwanted RF noise to get into the LKS 004

Additional piece of AB5100 material to help mitigate this.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Thank you b0bb.
> 
> Do you think that an iFi iUSBpower is a similar quality power supply for an upgraded Amanero as a LT3042 board?
> I've already have inductors that need to be soldered in order to power the Amanero externally...
> ...


Nope. I used this before the enhanced combo came out.

The modded LT3042 board outperforms this one. 
I am now using the iFi to clean up the Gen V USB input on my Schiit Yggy.


----------



## piaseczek

Those RF absorbing materials look really interesting, does it make any sense to adhesive such materials to the LKS 004's chassis?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Those RF absorbing materials look really interesting, does it make any sense to adhesive such materials to the LKS 004's chassis?


Yes. I estimate a budget of $200-300USD to fully cover the LKS.

The little piece of Fair-rite M6  is about $18 USD, a sheet of AB5100S is $75-100USD at places like Digikey and Mouser


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb,
could you please share your ideas on modding the LKS 004? 

I see that you have many new conceptions when comparing to your vision of LKS 003's mod.


----------



## b0bb (Oct 21, 2018)

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> could you please share your ideas on modding the LKS 004?
> 
> I see that you have many new conceptions when comparing to your vision of LKS 003's mod.



Most of the ideas on the 003 can transfer over to the 004

1) OCXO for master clock
2) Vishay Z-foil metal foil I/V conversion resistor
3) Schottky diodes for digital and analog sections
4) Fast LDO regulators (TPS7A47, LT3042) for the digital sections
5) Tantalum caps for Vcom bypass
6) Nichicon FP caps for the clock and 9038 digital supply bypass
7) Polystyrene caps for the final stage analog filter
8) CGW glass caps for the analog bypass caps

Couple of new items not available during the 003's time

Vishay Z-foils are now available in SMD custom made values from Texas Components, I will probably rebuild the discrete opamps in the LKS with these.

Similarly the LT3042/3045 is available as a semi discrete package to replace the LM317s

Silicon Carbide (SiC) schottky, these are even quieter than the regular Si ones

Bigger OSCONS up to 2200uF 16V for the USB interface power supply.


----------



## piaseczek

Could you share the photos of your modded LKS 004?

Ad 4. Do you mean a board like this?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LT3045-LM-...h=item3ae4e2bfa0:g:1fcAAOSwXYtYyCH-:rk:4:pf:0
How many is needed? For sure one for the i2s/spdif section.

Ad 5. Which one is the Vcom bypass capacitor?

Ad 6. Please take a look at the enclosed file, have I marked it right?


----------



## martin778 (Oct 21, 2018)

Can someone explain this? Happens every time I try to play native DSD. Source is Roon, same thing when using Jriver and other DSD albums. No problems with DoP or PCM at all, though.


Spoiler


----------



## Lennym

b0bb said:


> 3)Panasonic OSCON polymer main filter caps. These are the older 1000uF caps, these were the biggest available at the time I built this , original value 2200uF is now available


b0bb,

The LT3042 PSU just arrived.  I'm going to run it a while as is to make sure its OK. 

1000uF is the highest value in the 16V SEPF catagory that you recommended for the LT3042 PSU mod.  Which 2200uF cap did you have in mind?

Thanks.


----------



## rettib2001

b0bb said:


> LKS uses the 9038 in asynch reclock mode, this makes it insensitive to jitter (within reason).
> The USB interface thru the ISO7640 can be run at the full 384kHz PCM rate at the lowest PLL bandwidth setting without losing lock.
> 
> Allo makes good stuff, as you need a Raspberry Pi or Sparky to run the Digione board, I think the better option is to get the Kali Reclocker + Isolator boards and use the I2S input on the DAC instead.
> ...



b0bb,

Do you happen to know which of the i2S HDMI output modules that are compatible with the Kali Reclocker is the best match for the LKS 004?


----------



## littlexx26

wow unbelievable!!!. since my lks004 is a very special verion (upgraded usb board without power suppply). the usb board draws power from the port. that means i can use whatever power supply i like. and that's it. using it to power micro iusb3.0. the results are astonishing!!!


----------



## gruvytune

littlexx26 said:


> wow unbelievable!!!. since my lks004 is a very special verion (upgraded usb board without power suppply). the usb board draws power from the port. that means i can use whatever power supply i like. and that's it. using it to power micro iusb3.0. the results are astonishing!!!




Hi! Can you show an illustration of how you wire and hook all that up and what setting you use?  Thank you!


----------



## littlexx26

gruvytune said:


> Hi! Can you show an illustration of how you wire and hook all that up and what setting you use?  Thank you!


notebook - ipurifier3 - micro iusb3.0 powered by lps-1.2 - igalvanic - ipurifer 3 - dac


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Could you share the photos of your modded LKS 004?



Current snapshot of my 004
1)OCXO between the DAC chips
2)Rebuilt enhanced USB + LT3042 on top right corner
3)Thermal coupling of discrete opamp output transistor pairs
4)3M AB5100 RF absorber on I2S HDMI input shield and misc chips
5)I2S HDMI shell insulated from metal chassis
6)USB metal shield insulated from chassis
7)Twist all AC wiring into board.






piaseczek said:


> Ad 4. Do you mean a board like this?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/LT3045-LM-...h=item3ae4e2bfa0:g:1fcAAOSwXYtYyCH-:rk:4:pf:0
> How many is needed? For sure one for the i2s/spdif section.



Up to 3.

The one you pointed to should have a 1A regulator like the TPS 7A47.

The current consumption of the load on regulators should be measured to be absolutely sure if the replacement unit output is less than 1A. LT3045 units supply up to 500mA and will need  an external transistor to boost current output.

You will have to measure the height of the mounting hole on the heatsink to make sure the board fits.



piaseczek said:


> Ad 5. Which one is the Vcom bypass capacitor?



The really big axial cap above the red WIMA box cap above one of your arrows



piaseczek said:


> Ad 6. Please take a look at the enclosed file, have I marked it right?



Those are the right caps for replacement


----------



## b0bb

martin778 said:


> Can someone explain this? Happens every time I try to play native DSD. Source is Roon, same thing when using Jriver and other DSD albums. No problems with DoP or PCM at all, though.
> 
> 
> Spoiler




Sounds like the DAC is intermittently losing lock on the DSD bitstream
Increase the DPLL bandwidth to 15


----------



## b0bb

Lennym said:


> b0bb,
> 
> The LT3042 PSU just arrived.  I'm going to run it a while as is to make sure its OK.
> 
> ...



https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...R1wrj203KOFZec2tglEEbLmKxGadzG7snrKmWLyhApA==

OSCON SEPF had the biggest value at that time


----------



## b0bb

rettib2001 said:


> b0bb,
> 
> Do you happen to know which of the i2S HDMI output modules that are compatible with the Kali Reclocker is the best match for the LKS 004?



https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/diy-...dule-hdmi-i2s-lvds-to-i2s-output-p-12422.html

Contact Allo to check if the one above will work.


----------



## Whitigir

@b0bb what are those big caps ? May I know


----------



## rettib2001

b0bb said:


> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/diy-...dule-hdmi-i2s-lvds-to-i2s-output-p-12422.html
> 
> Contact Allo to check if the one above will work.


 Thanks, 

Funnily enough I sent them an email about it yesterday!

I'll wait to hear back from them.


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> @b0bb what are those big caps ? May I know


Bypass for the DAC common mode reference voltage.

This affects the bass extension of the DAC or lack of, one of the complaints about the 004


----------



## piaseczek (Oct 25, 2018)

b0bb said:


> Current snapshot of my 004
> 1)OCXO between the DAC chips
> 2)Rebuilt enhanced USB + LT3042 on top right corner
> 3)Thermal coupling of discrete opamp output transistor pairs
> ...




Thanks for explanations b0bb.

Are you going to add an additional transformer for the Amanero's power supply?

Next to three LM317s I've noticed the low noise LT1963A and the same ultra low noise regulator as near the DACs (TI 7A47?), could you tell me what they are for?


----------



## Lennym

Whitigir said:


> @b0bb what are those big caps ? May I know





b0bb said:


> Bypass for the DAC common mode reference voltage.
> 
> This affects the bass extension of the DAC or lack of, one of the complaints about the 004



Which caps are these?


----------



## b0bb

Lennym said:


> Which caps are these?



Look at the pictures @piaseczek posted, the one with the white arrows.
Bypass Cap is just above the red WIMA.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Thanks for explanations b0bb.
> 
> Are you going to add an additional transformer for the Amanero's power supply?


Yes, probably a split bobbin conventional EI type transformer, this has the best isolation between the primary secondary windings.  This prevents the RF noise on the secondary side from going back into the primary windings. 



piaseczek said:


> Next to three LM317s I've noticed the low noise LT1963A and the same ultra low noise regulator as near the DACs (TI 7A47?), could you tell me what they are for?



LT1963A is the primary regulator for the 9038s


----------



## piaseczek (Oct 28, 2018)

b0bb,
please take a look at the attached photo, do you know what the low noise power regulator near the LM317s is for? It's the same type as near the DACs.





If I replace the stock LM317 to the TPS7A47, like the one below:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TPS7A4700-...h=item3ada614525:g:7UMAAOSwhlZYtc1E:rk:8:pf:0
will I get a sound improvement on the SPDiF, BNC, i2s, USB input? Or maybe without USB?

I can't understand why the LKS team used the old and noisy LM317 in this section... even in the LKS 003 there was the better version, the LT317.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb,
Do I assume correctly that the AMS1117 3.3v is to power a clean side of the ISO7640?


----------



## rafabro

b0bb said:


> 2) Vishay Z-foil metal foil I/V conversion resistor


Could you or somebody tell what is the value of the resistor and point on the picture the location, please?


----------



## b0bb (Oct 28, 2018)

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> please take a look at the attached photo, do you know what the low noise power regulator near the LM317s is for? It's the same type as near the DACs.
> 
> 
> ...



Final stage regulator for the I2S, SPDIF etc.
LKS went from a single stage LT317 on the 003 to LM317+Low Noise regulator dual stage for the 004.

LT317 is 4-6x the cost of the LM317.

You will need to drill a new screw hole on the heatsink for the Ebay regulator, it is further up compared to the hole on the TO-220 package.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> Do I assume correctly that the AMS1117 3.3v is to power a clean side of the ISO7640?


No.

That is the final stage regulator for the STC microcontroller.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb,
thank you for the detailed and informative reply.


----------



## b0bb

rafabro said:


> Could you or somebody tell what is the value of the resistor and point on the picture the location, please?


Resistor is on underside.






Value is 68.1 ohm 0.5%


----------



## Monolithic

@b0bb:

For the second version of the opamp based USB power supply, are there more mods that can be made other than Schottky rectifiers and the 2200uF Chemicon OSCON capacitors?


----------



## Monolithic

b0bb said:


> Resistor is on underside.
> 
> Value is 68.1 ohm 0.5%



So the 68.1 ohm is the I/V conversion resistor value for the 004 and 249 ohms is the I/V conversion resistor value for the 003?


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb:
> 
> For the second version of the opamp based USB power supply, are there more mods that can be made other than Schottky rectifiers and the 2200uF Chemicon OSCON capacitors?



The LED is part of the voltage reference for the error amp, if it is supplied via a resistor you could try to replace it with a precision current source to increase the PSRR.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> So the 68.1 ohm is the I/V conversion resistor value for the 004 and 249 ohms is the I/V conversion resistor value for the 003?


Yes 4x the current.


----------



## martin778 (Oct 31, 2018)

How do I upgrade the soft/firmware? Current version is 18.03.

I've found info on updating the Amanero but how do I know what version of the Amanero I am running now? The process seems pretty 'crude' - just erase and flash, without info on what version it is replacing. My DAC is mid 2018 so I wonder whether it's worthwile trying to flash it or not.


----------



## Monolithic

b0bb said:


> Yes 4x the current.


Any issues with the higher current in using the standard single chip TX2575 in place of the existing 68.1 ohm resistors in the 004?


----------



## b0bb

The peak dissipation in the resistor 68R1@120mA is just under 1W, size the TX2575 appropriately when ordering.

The best source is Texas Components which custom makes the part and they can help you further.


----------



## Lennym

@b0bb,

For the Amanero board powersupply mod, the  cap at 
https://www.digikey.com/products/en?vendor=0&keywords=1189-1798-1-ND 
seems no longer available.  Can you recommend a substitute that will work?

Thanks.


----------



## b0bb

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/rubycon/16MU475MC14532/1189-2518-1-ND/4969576

There is a cheaper one @25V, do not get that one, cap needs to be as small as possible to minimize inductance to preserve the transient and high frequency performance


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb,
do you know if the ISO7640 digital isolator is powered by 3.3V or 5V? 
According to a specification the jitter is 2x lower when powered by 3.3V.

http://www.ti.com/product/ISO7640FM/technicaldocuments


----------



## piaseczek

Has anyone compared an impact on sound of the CCHD575X-25 with the CCHD 950X-25? 
I've asked the Crystek about the 100M version of their audio grade audio 957 and it won't be available any soon. 
Pulsar is out of the business...


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> do you know if the ISO7640 digital isolator is powered by 3.3V or 5V?
> According to a specification the jitter is 2x lower when powered by 3.3V.
> 
> http://www.ti.com/product/ISO7640FM/technicaldocuments



3.3V


----------



## piaseczek

Has the Accusilicon updated a specification of the AS318-B series?

http://www.accusilicon.com/AS318BM.pdf

The "s" version is +/- 1ppm and according to the graph below has a lower jitter at low f than the cchd575x.




 .


----------



## Whitigir

Problem is that we dont know where to buy one


----------



## Monolithic (Nov 3, 2018)

b0bb said:


> The peak dissipation in the resistor 68R1@120mA is just under 1W, size the TX2575 appropriately when ordering.
> 
> The best source is Texas Components which custom makes the part and they can help you further.



TC is recommending the TX2575-3, dramatically increasing the cost for modding with the 68R100 0.005% chips.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> TC is recommending the TX2575-3, dramatically increasing the cost for modding with the 68R100 0.005% chips.



What was the per-unit cost they quoted ?


----------



## Monolithic

Approx. 80USD.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> Approx. 80USD.



That is consistent with the prices of high powered versions of the Vishay Z-foils I have used in the past


----------



## rafabro

Why not Charcroft Z-Foil? Stability is 0.2ppm and these are more affordable 

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/car_resistors.html


----------



## piaseczek

You can use it also but only if you lower the volume digitally. Rated power of the I/V resistors in the LKS 004 should be about 1W, these are 0.4W.


----------



## rafabro

TX2575 it's also 0.4W (peak 0.6W)


----------



## piaseczek

but the TX2575s could be ordered as a custom made with the rated power 1W.


----------



## rafabro

Oh, get you now. Thanks


----------



## Monolithic (Nov 4, 2018)

The “-3” of TX2575-3 indicates a three chip version which increases wattage over the standard TX2575 which is a single chip.

The price includes double upgrading from the standard 0.1% tolerance to 0.005% tolerance (not the 0.05% tolerance version).


----------



## b0bb

Bottom right corner of the photo shows the multi-module Vishay Z-Foil resistors (R57,R59,R62)
These are the TX2575-2


----------



## Monolithic (Nov 4, 2018)

b0bb said:


> Bottom right corner of the photo shows the multi-module Vishay Z-Foil resistors (R57,R59,R62)
> These are the TX2575-2



I guess I was expecting the multi-chip versions to be physically stacked (in parallel) rather than in a physical serial layout (straight line).   I assume that although they are physically in a serial layout that they are actually electrically connected in parallel. So would a 3 chip version be about 20mm wide (5mm x 3 + spacing)?


----------



## b0bb (Nov 4, 2018)

rafabro said:


> TX2575 it's also 0.4W (peak 0.6W)



The 9038 operating mode is programmable, LKS set up the peak full scale current to around 100mA. It operates in current mode.

I use 120mA in my calculations to allow for some safety margin. Dissipation is determined by the DAC current output squared, times the resistor value.
In order to lower the dissipation, the resistor value has to be decreased.

This in turn lowers the overall gain.
LKS did not publish the specs on their discrete op-amp particularly the minimum operating gain.
There is a risk of the op-amp going into instability and oscillating.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> I guess I was expecting the multi-chip versions to be physically stacked (in parallel) rather than in a physical serial layout (straight line).  I assume that although they are physically in a serial layout that they are actually electrically connected in parallel.  So would a 3 chip version be about 20mm wide (5mm x 3 + spacing)?



Ask Texas Components about the spacing and layout.
This is one reason I posted the photo, on the LKS it is 10mm.

The resistors in the module shown are wired in parallel.


----------



## piaseczek (Nov 4, 2018)

In my LKS 004 (probably the newest version) there were such resistors in the I/V conversion:


They look like the ordinary quality metal film resistors, nothing fancy.
My guess would be the MBB/SMA 0207 with the rated power of 0.6W.
https://www.vishay.com/docs/28766/mbxsma.pdf


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> It is the right type for voltage and output
> However it is not a quartz XO, it uses MEMS (microelectromechanical system), a miniature machine in silicon that has both mechanical and electronic components.
> 
> Not sure which direction it will take the LKS to.
> ...




b0bb,
Have you tried the CCHD-575X and the SiT5157 in your DAC?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> Have you tried the CCHD-575X and the SiT5157 in your DAC?




Not yet, need to dig out my adapters from the closet.


----------



## Forgisound

LKS 004 I have 3 weeks. The rest of the setups is very resolute, so LKS can show all the potential.
I hear the most classical music.
After which the LKS burn in and sound stabilized, I can share impressions.
The LKS004 is a great device, IMHO, far better than its price class.
Resolutions and Timber Instruments are fantastic. The stage is large and all three dimensions. The focus is remarkable. Bass is very clean and accurate, however, a bit withdrawn. This is the only thing that separates this device from the total high end.
Most importantly, despite its exceptional resolution, there is no strain on listening. Sound is exceptionally inclusive.
If I had a better English, I would describe in detail how certain shots sound, but I can hardly write it in English. I hope you understand this mini review.


----------



## Forgisound (Nov 7, 2018)

We all know the human voice all the best. LKS 004 plays human voices as we hear them live. Very delicate.
The piano is a big challenge for every HiFi setup. This DAC presents a very convincing timbar. The color of the tones of the piano is very similar to the natural tonal color. This can very rarely be heard.
There is no least clinging to the tones of the piano, which is a delight to me.
And the deep tones are very clear and sparkling.
The bass has maybe even enough. But the most expensive HiFi components usually add a bass extension, which LKS does not do. That's why I said that this is the only difference between LKS004 and a totally high end DAC.
I use LKS in volume fixed mode. I tried to use it shortly as a preamp, but it did not sound so good. Maybe the volume section must burn in, but I have not been patient for that.
Even add that, before LKS004, I had Berkeley Alpha DAC MK1.
I am from Croatia, it is in southeastern Europe. Sorry about the weak English.


----------



## Forgisound (Nov 12, 2018)

I left LKS for an additional 50 hours to play with volume control. The sound has improved in relation to the initial state. Unfortunately, SQ still lags behind the sound when the volume control is off. The sound seems to be harder, with more distorsion with the volume control turned on. Still not bad, but in my setup it is much better with fixed volume option on DAC. I used Ayon Crossfire II integrated amp with volume control, or in direct mode (without volume control).
Maybe an additional 50 hours is not enough?
Or the output and input impedances of the DAC and amplifiers are not harmonized?
Or the volume control in the digital domain is still a worse option than the attenuation in the analog domain?


----------



## littlexx26

I want to change the fuse. where is the position?


----------



## Forgisound

My DAC has firmware 18.03. Current firmware 18.08.
Where can I download and how to install a new firmware?


----------



## gruvytune

Hi. Can someone give a good detailed description of how to read the current firmware/software on the DAC and on the Amanero board and then the proper way to install the current version. 
The website is difficult to understand and has a bunch of settings and files but no good explanation


----------



## Monolithic

gruvytune said:


> Hi. Can someone give a good detailed description of how to read the current firmware/software on the DAC and on the Amanero board and then the proper way to install the current version.
> The website is difficult to understand and has a bunch of settings and files but no good explanation



Amenaro can be found in this thread at:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...es-double-impact.840938/page-22#post-13762204


----------



## Monolithic (Nov 12, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> I want to change the fuse. where is the position?



AC fuse is in the IEC connector at the back of the unit.


----------



## Lennym

Updating Firmware on the Amanero Board


----------



## gruvytune

Thanks everyone. 
Is there a separate process for the main board as well?


----------



## Forgisound

Constructor Jinbo says the update firmware for the main board is not needed. I got an answer today.


----------



## gruvytune

Thanks. I emailed him too and had not heard back yet


----------



## piaseczek

Has anyone tried a PCM to DSD256/512 conversion? Is it sonically worth to try?


----------



## Forgisound

piaseczek said:


> Has anyone tried a PCM to DSD256/512 conversion? Is it sonically worth to try?


More conversions, more mistakes, more lies. Theoretically, only the DSD is reproduced correctly through the DSD device.
I think the HQ player is doing a conversion to DSD. However, LKS 004 is not a DSD device, so this way theoretically is not correct.
In practice, of course, we are listening to the final result and it is possible that this approach will be more like us.
I'm not an expert and maybe something wrong.


----------



## Whitigir (Nov 19, 2018)

Forgisound said:


> More conversions, more mistakes, more lies. Theoretically, only the DSD is reproduced correctly through the DSD device.
> I think the HQ player is doing a conversion to DSD. However, LKS 004 is not a DSD device, so this way theoretically is not correct.
> In practice, of course, we are listening to the final result and it is possible that this approach will be more like us.
> I'm not an expert and maybe something wrong.



I disagree, lks004 is totally DSD Native deice, the bad thing is Amanero inside it, and ....I can’t find a good I2S out device that can do DSD1028 

Speaking from many experiences, the LKS004 is an excellent DSD device, but you need to have a good source and system before you can judge

DSD is simply an already processed signals from Digital form, it only needs low-high pass filters to become analog.....this processing is done by your DAC in a hardware level or can be done with software level as demonstrated by HQPlayer, and even though there are haters, people are picking up on this.

DAC can only do so much calculations given how it has to satisfy and meet other parameters, it is only good enough to achieve performances, to further enjoy it, the music should be converted offline from PCM into DSD by an extremely good PC for On the fly such as HQPlayer, or by any common PC with offline conversion and tons of storage.

Because of this reason purely, DAC Chip makers are engineering the ability to bypass DSD signals with the lowest interventions by the DAC itself, while processing it at much higher speed, and also keeping down the self generated noises.  Both the newest ES9028Prp and ES9038Pro are excellent at these.  I have yet to listened to the newest AKM chip, but the ES9038Pro is a miles ahead from the last generation ES9018S in regarding of DSD Native processing


----------



## Forgisound

Whitigir said:


> I disagree, lks004 is totally DSD Native deice, the bad thing is Amanero inside it, and ....I can’t find a good I2S out device that can do DSD1028
> 
> Speaking from many experiences, the LKS004 is an excellent DSD device, but you need to have a good source and system before you can judge
> 
> ...


I did not know that the ES9038 is a native DSD device. I thought DSD signal was converted to PCM at some point. As owner of LKS 004 I am happy for that. My apologies.


----------



## Whitigir

No worries my friend ! The lks004 is ways too good for it price.  I love it a lot


----------



## Forgisound

Whitigir said:


> No worries my friend ! The lks004 is ways too good for it price.  I love it a lot


In my setup DSD recordings sound good. The only thing I need to put DPLL on 7 so the sound gets a slight bloor effect. While on all PCM recordings the DAC works flawlessly at DPLL 1 and the sound does not have a little bloor effect.
Have Ayon Crossfire II SET amp, very good HTPC with great mainboard (choice between 8 differences MBO) and platinum power supply, Accuton ceramic 3 way speakers with top Mundorf crossover, Nordost Valhalla speaker cable, Audioquest Amazon IC, Nordost Valhalla power cable, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Audioquest Cinnamon Ethernet cable. The sound is very accurate.


----------



## Forgisound

Whitigir said:


> I disagree, lks004 is totally DSD Native deice, the bad thing is Amanero inside it, and ....I can’t find a good I2S out device that can do DSD1028


I have a question. Can transfer a native DSD signal through the HDMI I2S input or convert it to a DXD?
I'm thinking about purchasing Singxer SU-1, but only if it can work with native DSD and transfer it through HDMI I2S input to LKS 004.


----------



## Whitigir

Forgisound said:


> I have a question. Can transfer a native DSD signal through the HDMI I2S input or convert it to a DXD?
> I'm thinking about purchasing Singxer SU-1, but only if it can work with native DSD and transfer it through HDMI I2S input to LKS 004.


 SU-1 is great to output DSD into lks004 by I2S


----------



## Forgisound

Which HDMI cable are you using?


----------



## Lennym

Forgisound said:


> In my setup DSD recordings sound good. The only thing I need to put DPLL on 7 so the sound gets a slight bloor effect. While on all PCM recordings the DAC works flawlessly at DPLL 1 and the sound does not have a little bloor effect.


Perhaps in next version of LKS DAC, mu-sound can be encouraged to have the DPLL switch automatically when PCM or DSD is detected.  

Or could that be accomplished in the 004 with a firm-ware upgrade?  It's worth inquiring about.


----------



## rafabro

Whitigir said:


> and ....I can’t find a good I2S out device that can do DSD1028


Why would you look for such device? For what? Is no music you could buy in this format as nobody record in 1028. Even 512 is extreme whim


----------



## Whitigir

rafabro said:


> Why would you look for such device? For what? Is no music you could buy in this format as nobody record in 1028. Even 512 is extreme whim



LKS004 is capable of DSD1028 input Via I2S.  With a good PC, and HQPlayer, DSD1028 is great, even DSD512 is awesome atm.  You can also use Offline conversion to convert


----------



## Whitigir

Forgisound said:


> Which HDMI cable are you using?


Pangea HDMI is recommended


----------



## Whitigir

Lennym said:


> Perhaps in next version of LKS DAC, mu-sound can be encouraged to have the DPLL switch automatically when PCM or DSD is detected.
> 
> Or could that be accomplished in the 004 with a firm-ware upgrade?  It's worth inquiring about.



DPLL automatically can degrade the sound quality, but listening to DSD64 and or higher at DPLL7 is good already.  But using DSD, the DPLL wont matter.  DPLL matters when using PCM


----------



## Forgisound (Nov 19, 2018)

I think, on regulator for oscillator write LTGSH 7H28. It is for 200 mA? Can I change regulator for stronger model?
Which oscillators are upgrade options? The sound is very good with the vol fixed option. I want to keep timbar, resolution, speed, and I would like to get even more dynamics in the bass area.
Which oscillator is the best for my LKS 004, regardless of price?


----------



## rafabro

Whitigir said:


> LKS004 is capable of DSD1028 input Via I2S.  With a good PC, and HQPlayer, DSD1028 is great, even DSD512 is awesome atm.  You can also use Offline conversion to convert


My experience with any conversion is sound quality lost. 
Even if first impression maybe positive, after a while you realize the sound is lack of micro details. 

I don't like it. Only native recordings sounds proper.


----------



## Forgisound

rafabro said:


> My experience with any conversion is sound quality lost.
> Even if first impression maybe positive, after a while you realize the sound is lack of micro details.
> 
> I don't like it. Only native recordings sounds proper.


OK, but I think, in this case you need NOS DAC.


----------



## Whitigir (Nov 19, 2018)

Forgisound said:


> OK, but I think, in this case you need NOS DAC.



Exactly, NOS DAC won’t sound good with DSD, and the same for Delta Sigma which is Native DSD ...and will do conversion by itself as it is called 8X oversampling at 32 bits.  That means DSD256 maximum.  Regardless of what you do, this will stay true.  So, you let the DAC chip convert by itself, or you help it by conversion done with offline and using computer prowess to minimizes and mitigate timing errors, and so on ? Up to you

I have both LKS004 as Delta Sigma and it does excellent at DSD, and I have NOS which is AudioGD R2R7 and the R2R7 can’t do DSD as well as LKS004, but it does so much more with PCM.

Whatever float your boats


----------



## Paul Staples

@b0bb 
hi,

...just wondered if the amanero usb on the LKS004 can be replaced with something superior?
cheers!


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> LKS004 is capable of DSD1028 input Via I2S.  With a good PC, and HQPlayer, DSD1028 is great, even DSD512 is awesome atm.  You can also use Offline conversion to convert


According to ifi, usb output source is limited to 512 (makes some sense as usb 3.0 does 5gbps or 640MBps). That's why the ifi pro idsd upsample to 1024 at the hardware level. Interestingly they use the Crysopeia FPGA for the upsample and not the xmos xu216.  The only native i2s output source from PC that I know is Pink Faun but they are not even doing dsd. Not sure how the DIYINHK xmos i2s/dsd bridge works as it also uses usb input.


----------



## b0bb (Nov 22, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> @b0bb
> hi,
> 
> ...just wondered if the amanero usb on the LKS004 can be replaced with something superior?
> cheers!



Depends on the version
1)If you have the standard version get the enhanced version with the Crystek clocks + Power supply
2)If you have (1) you could rebuild the power supply

Beyond this it gets difficult.

If you are primarily a PCM user I would not bother going any further.

The Singxer SU-1 v2.0 is a candidate, out of the box is about the same performance as (2) above, the real payoff happens if you are prepared do to a few things to clean it up.

SU-1 connects the noisy USB ground to the HDMI port shield, the HDMI port on the LKS has to be taped up to avoid it touching the chassis to stop RF noise getting into the DAC.
I put RF absorber materials on the LKS side to deal with radiated RF noise into the DAC

This the major negative of using SU-1 with the 004.

If buying used, avoid  SU-1s older than v2.0, the crystals run a half the frequency of the v2.0 boxes, not good if you are interested in DSD.

Out of the box SU-1 v2.0 with upsampled PCM44.1k->DSD512 sounds edgy and etched, midrange improves and bass extension drops down by an octave once RF cleanup is done.
I use Roon upsampling, I find it is the best of the bunch, being easier to use, less fussy than HQPlayer.


----------



## piaseczek

B0bb,
Do you upsample every music to the DSD512? 
I've read (but I might  be wrong) that the DSD signal omitts an upsampler and a delta sigma modulator in the es9038? It results  in a simpler audio path and gives a better sound.


----------



## b0bb (Nov 22, 2018)

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> Do you upsample every music to the DSD512?
> I've read (but I might  be wrong) that the DSD signal omitts an upsampler and a delta sigma modulator in the es9038? It results  in a simpler audio path and gives a better sound.


Yes that is correct to both questions.

The path below:




From the SMS-200 --> SU-1 -->  LKS-004

The other reason is to bring greater CPU processing to the table.
The DSD processing on the 9038 is limited by the resources available on chip, running some of the processing in software gets around the problem.

Roon can and will use a lot of CPU cycles if allowed.
In a month it ate up 5hours of CPU time.

Machine is a 8Core/16Thread 3.3GHz XeonE5 running Centos 7.4.
Core 7 ran the main roon process in this snap shot.


High memory use not due to Roon.


----------



## piaseczek

That is very interesting, I will give DSD a try, thank you.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> That is very interesting, I will give DSD a try, thank you.


If your DAC is running with the stock CCHD-575, PCM --> DSD conversion may amplify some of the less desirable attributes of the stock 004 namely the lack of low bass extension and  marginal cold and sterile presentation


----------



## piaseczek

I will replace the stock clock, I'm waiting for the results of your comparison


----------



## Forgisound

b0bb said:


> Depends on the version
> 1)If you have the standard version get the enhanced version with the Crystek clocks + Power supply
> 2)If you have (1) you could rebuild the power supply
> 
> ...


 Which version of su-1 is V2? I ordered a new SU-1, but the dealer does not know whether it is V1 or V2.


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> Depends on the version
> 1)If you have the standard version get the enhanced version with the Crystek clocks + Power supply
> 2)If you have (1) you could rebuild the power supply
> 
> ...



this is mine:

 
 
maybe you can I identify the version and take it from there?
Cheers!


----------



## b0bb

Paul Staples said:


> this is mine:
> 
> 
> maybe you can I identify the version and take it from there?
> Cheers!


The powersupply board is one of the low cost versions, upgrade to the LT3042 version  which is the best at about 50USD  available on Ebay.
This can be further upgraded by rebuilding.

Complete details in previous pages on this thread


----------



## b0bb

Forgisound said:


> Which version of su-1 is V2? I ordered a new SU-1, but the dealer does not know whether it is V1 or V2.


Version number is printed on the PCB, cover has to be removed to see it.


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> The powersupply board is one of the low cost versions, upgrade to the LT3042 version  which is the best at about 50USD  available on Ebay.
> This can be further upgraded by rebuilding.
> 
> Complete details in previous pages on this thread


fantastic!
One step at a time I think! ~ First get the LT3042, then later on, rebuild!
Cheers!


----------



## cmcgarry

What software are people using to do offline conversions to DSD512?

Came across this which looks like it could do the job
https://www.xivero.com/xisrc/


----------



## Whitigir

cmcgarry said:


> What software are people using to do offline conversions to DSD512?
> 
> Came across this which looks like it could do the job
> https://www.xivero.com/xisrc/


That is the best


----------



## cmcgarry

Whitigir said:


> That is the best



Great thanks for the confirm @Whitigir


----------



## Forgisound

Whitigir said:


> Thanks @b0bb.  By your post here, this OCXO is drop in upgrades for lks004 and has better performances than 950X.  But pulsar is better ? It look like the Muse caps will need to be replaced anyways to better stabilize the regulator.  Why was it used in the first place here though ? Probably for more analog sounding to offset Sabres and 575 glares? Then I better keep on with Nichicon FP
> 
> I will just drop in an Rhea - dip socket and dip the cheap OCXO now while waiting for pulsar at the end of the year, hopefully they come back to it.  I found the adapter board for crystek! Thanks B0bb
> 
> ...


I asked Pulsar when it would have a 100 MHz oscillator. The answer is never.


----------



## Whitigir

Forgisound said:


> I asked Pulsar when it would have a 100 MHz oscillator. The answer is never.


Yeah, I got my other OCXO in, so I am happy for now.  No need to get pulsar ocxo


----------



## Forgisound

Whitigir said:


> Yeah, I got my other OCXO in, so I am happy for now.  No need to get pulsar ocxo


What exactly oscillator do you have and what have you changed during upgrade? Did you have a stronger regulator?


----------



## piaseczek

https://blog.bliley.com/low-power-ocxo-technology-made-accessible

A new line of a really low power OCXO, maybe that is a solution for the newer 004s.


----------



## piaseczek

... but 50Mhz is a max. value.


----------



## Whitigir (Nov 25, 2018)

Forgisound said:


> What exactly oscillator do you have and what have you changed during upgrade? Did you have a stronger regulator?


Yes, I had beefier regulator, just upgraded a capacitor and dropped in the OCXO 

The lower power regulators need to be upgraded before OCXO can be installed


----------



## Forgisound

Unfortunately I have a new DAC with a weaker regulator. It excites me that I only have Crystek 950X?

I bought XiSRC. There is enough processor muscle to convert red book to DSD512. I also have a brand new Singxer with a bad HDMI cable. I can not hear yet Singxer can. Does my node tell me whether red book is converted to DSD512? What are listening impressions?

One more thing. Audio Advisor does not ship to Croatia Pangea cables. How Does This Pangea HDMI Play Compared to AQ Cofee?


----------



## piaseczek

Forgisound,
for now the only options are 950X-25 and the newer 575-25.


----------



## littlexx26

anyone knows the spec of the fuse? i want to change


----------



## Forgisound

piaseczek said:


> Forgisound,
> for now the only options are 950X-25 and the newer 575-25.


What are the sound difference between Crystek 575, 575X and 950X?
950X reportedly has more body, more bass extension. But do not know whether this is a slower sound with less detail?
About the sound of the 575X I do not know anything. Is there any experience, what's different from 575?


----------



## Forgisound

At the DIYAudio forum, at the question of upgrading the Crystek 575 i just got one answer: "It's already very best.
Do not think it worth upgrade."


----------



## littlexx26

Forgisound said:


> At the DIYAudio forum, at the question of upgrading the Crystek 575 i just got one answer: "It's already very best.
> Do not think it worth upgrade."


i have changed the 575 to 575x. i can tell a good quality power cord or xlr has much bigger effect. and i am looking for a fuse to change


----------



## Forgisound

littlexx26 said:


> i have changed the 575 to 575x. i can tell a good quality power cord or xlr has much bigger effect. and i am looking for a fuse to change


I've changed a few HiFi fuses in the amplifier and DAC. Some are worse, and some are better than ordinary ones.
Consistently my best is Synergistic Research.


----------



## rafabro

piaseczek said:


> ... but 50Mhz is a max. value.


It's actually 60MHz


----------



## Monolithic (Nov 27, 2018)

b0bb said:


> The powersupply board is one of the low cost versions, upgrade to the LT3042 version  which is the best at about 50USD  available on Ebay.
> This can be further upgraded by rebuilding.
> 
> Complete details in previous pages on this thread



@b0bb

Just to beat a dead horse - so the newer opamp based USB voltage regulator boards are inferior to the eBay (China) LT3042 USB voltage regulator boards?

I asked earlier about modifying the opamp based voltage regulator board but did not realize that I would be better off modifying the LT3042 version instead.


----------



## Forgisound

Jinbo says Amanero power supply in LKS004 is better than LT3042. I'm not sure who's right.


----------



## rafabro

Amanero is USB controller card and LT3042 is voltage regulator. You comparing two different things together...


----------



## Forgisound

rafabro said:


> Amanero is USB controller card and LT3042 is voltage regulator. You comparing two different things together...


 I can not speak English well. I've compared 2 power supply, original LKS 004 and LT3042.


----------



## littlexx26 (Nov 27, 2018)

the best and easiest way is to get the upgrade amanero board without the power supply board. and use external power supply. i am using uptone lps1.2 which has two LT3045s to power the ifi usb dongles which in turn power the amanero board. and that means, you can upgrade the power supply much easier whenever there is new technology

remember, getting power from the usb port is the original amanero way. the original amaero design is like this.


----------



## b0bb (Nov 27, 2018)

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb
> 
> Just to beat a dead horse - so the newer opamp based USB voltage regulator boards are inferior to the eBay (China) LT3042 USB voltage regulator boards?
> 
> I asked earlier about modifying the opamp based voltage regulator board but did not realize that I would be better off modifying the LT3042 version instead.



LT3042 is part of a new generation of regulators for digital circuits, the PSRR is maintained up to very high frequencies, in this case PSRR 55dB.@10MHz, TPS7A7 is 10dB better.

The LM317 is very similar to the discrete opamp regulator, the opamp OP177 is internally compensated, meaning that the response of the regulator falls off at a known rate after the transition frequency.
Below shows how the LM317 starts fall off at 15kHz in a regular slope. This is called the dominant pole, the curse of the compensated opamp. OP177 unity gain bandwidth is 600kHz, it does not take much to see that any design based on the OP177 will have trouble providing useful PSRR@10MHz

 Page 7 of http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm317.pdf



This is the plot for the LT3042. 55db@10MHz, 80dB@1MHz vs 20dB@1MHz for the LM317.
Page 1 of https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/3042fb.pdf



The LT3042 board was what LKS originally supplied with  the enhanced Amanero, the OP177 board is a result of cost reduction.
It is unfortunate that this OP177 board is now the default, when I tossed my OP177 unit and replaced it with the LT3042 board it lifted a veil on the 004's presentation.
With the OP177 board the dynamics were highly subdued and the music lacked punch.


----------



## b0bb (Nov 27, 2018)

Forgisound said:


> Jinbo says Amanero power supply in LKS004 is better than LT3042. I'm not sure who's right.


I think you should stop agonizing over it, spend the 50USD on the LT3042 board to find out for yourself.


----------



## Forgisound

Thanks Bobb for quality explanation. I like the idea that DAC can improve. Have Singxer SU-1. Do I still need better power supply for Amanero?


----------



## b0bb

Forgisound said:


> Have Singxer SU-1. Do I still need better power supply for Amanero?


No


----------



## Forgisound

littlexx26 said:


> i have changed the 575 to 575x. i can tell a good quality power cord or xlr has much bigger effect. and i am looking for a fuse to change


You said good, good cable makes a big difference, but it costs a lot more.
I did not ask you, if there are sound differences, can you describe it?


----------



## littlexx26 (Nov 28, 2018)

Forgisound said:


> You said good, good cable makes a big difference, but it costs a lot more.
> I did not ask you, if there are sound differences, can you describe it?


i can tell the difference using high quality cables. i can tell the difference changing power supply to lps-1.2
575 to 575x.....i dont think i can tell the difference in a blind test


----------



## Forgisound

littlexx26 said:


> i can tell the difference using high quality cables. i can tell the difference changing power supply to lps-1.2
> 575 to 575x.....i dont think i can tell the difference in a blind test





littlexx26 said:


> i can tell the difference using high quality cables. i can tell the difference changing power supply to lps-1.2
> 575 to 575x.....i dont think i can tell the difference in a blind test


Blind test is not very appropriate for this case. In my opinion, the blind test is useless for serious sound evaluation of the HiFi setup. But it can be fun for the party.

Serious evaluation requires careful listening and comparison for a long time.
Unfortunately, after you change the oscillator, you can no longer hear what it sounded in the original state, you can only evaluate it by remembering it. And the sound of people does not remember long. Unless they are trained.


----------



## Tomus4

b0bb said:


> https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/rubycon/16MU475MC14532/1189-2518-1-ND/4969576
> 
> There is a cheaper one @25V, do not get that one, cap needs to be as small as possible to minimize inductance to preserve the transient and high frequency performance



Hi b0bb 
This cap is only one item not available in the mouser. Buy it in digikey is expensive - shipping cost.
What do you think to buy this one: https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail...gvFFBPTP%2bq9L5eovgEv85tviIRA51jynqC8ooZXBw==  x 4...5 and paralleled it?


----------



## Paul Staples

my 004 displays unlocked for all the inputs until the cable is connected, EXCEPT FOR THE USB INPUT!   ...is this normal? I have only used coax and i2s up to now, but recently I have had reason to connect to the USB input! It makes no difference if a cable is connected or not - the display only shows 44.1    ....i.e. no unlock status EVER!
I connected my laptop USB cable and there was no music?
I have used this laptop before with an M2-TECH (to coax) and it was fine back then, no problems! But now going  from USB to USB there is nothing, no sound?
Could there be a fault on the USB input?
Or could the laptop not be putting out an audio signal  from the USB socket?
Many Thanks!


----------



## b0bb

Tomus4 said:


> Hi b0bb
> This cap is only one item not available in the mouser. Buy it in digikey is expensive - shipping cost.
> What do you think to buy this one: https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic/ECP-U1C105MA5/?qs=/ha2pyFadujYBgvFFBPTP%2bq9L5eovgEv85tviIRA51jynqC8ooZXBw==  x 4...5 and paralleled it?


Omit the cap if it is too expensive to get.
The stacked 4 x 1uF caps is too tall and you will lose the protection of the ground plane.
The mod keeps everything as close as possible to the ground plane to reduce noise


----------



## b0bb

Paul Staples said:


> my 004 displays unlocked for all the inputs until the cable is connected, EXCEPT FOR THE USB INPUT!   ...is this normal? I have only used coax and i2s up to now, but recently I have had reason to connect to the USB input! It makes no difference if a cable is connected or not - the display only shows 44.1    ....i.e. no unlock status EVER!
> I connected my laptop USB cable and there was no music?
> I have used this laptop before with an M2-TECH (to coax) and it was fine back then, no problems! But now going  from USB to USB there is nothing, no sound?
> Could there be a fault on the USB input?
> ...


Can you see the Amanero device on the laptop ? 
If you are using Windows, device manager should report its presence.


----------



## Forgisound (Nov 29, 2018)

Singxer SU-1 works for about 70 hours. I have an HDMI cable of 1m for $ 3. However, the sound is already much better now than with the Amanero USB receiver. Wider and bigger stage, even better focus. Much better dynamics. Stronger and deeper bass. I can hardly wait to burn in and get a better and shorter HDMI cable.
Bravo for Singxer.
Bobb, thanks for the recommendation.

BTW. I converted a red book album on DSD512 via XiSRC. The sound is unfortunately not good. Stuck, small stage, unnatural timbar, total - zero point.


----------



## xiamen

b0bb said:


> Can you see the Amanero device on the laptop ?
> If you are using Windows, device manager should report its presence.


Have you installed the Amanero windows driver yet?


----------



## xiamen

Forgisound said:


> Singxer SU-1 works for about 70 hours. I have an HDMI cable of 1m for $ 3. However, the sound is already much better now than with the Amanero USB receiver. Wider and bigger stage, even better focus. Much better dynamics. Stronger and deeper bass. I can hardly wait to burn in and get a better and shorter HDMI cable.
> Bravo for Singxer.
> Bobb, thanks for the recommendation.
> 
> BTW. I converted a red book album on DSD512 via XiSRC. The sound is unfortunately not good. Stuck, small stage, unnatural timbar, total - zero point.


If you are interested in power supply upgrade for the singxer, you can check on https://kitsunehifi.com/product/singxer-su-1-dc-power-conversion-kit-kitsunehifi-2-1mmx5-5mm/. You will need a decent 5v dc supply source though, say a 5v dc linear power supply. Makes quite a improvement for me. So will a good short hdmi cable. What player software are you using for the DSD512 playback?


----------



## Paul Staples (Nov 29, 2018)

b0bb said:


> Can you see the Amanero device on the laptop ?
> If you are using Windows, device manager should report its presence.


Using windows pro 10/64, newly installed with all available updates.
Device manager does not show Amanero! Obviously 004 is switched on and USB selected.
Maybe I am looking for the wrong descriptor in device manager? Check under all sections/all headings!
Now what please?
Many Thanks for any help offered, very grateful!

Laptop: _HP Pavilion G6 - 2382sa D0Y14EA#ABU _


----------



## Main Source

Paul Staples said:


> Using windows pro 10/64, newly installed with all available updates.
> Device manager does not show Amanero! Obviously 004 is switched on and USB selected.
> Maybe I am looking for the wrong descriptor in device manager? Check under all sections/all headings!
> Now what please?
> ...


Did you look under 'sound,video and game controllers ' in the device manager?


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> Have you installed the Amanero windows driver yet?


erm!  ~ actually - .......n...o! - head scratch!

(above):
_Using windows pro 10/64, newly installed with all available updates.
Device manager does not show Amanero! Obviously 004 is switched on and USB selected.
Maybe I am looking for the wrong descriptor in device manager? Check under all sections/all headings!
Now what please?
Many Thanks for any help offered, very grateful!

Laptop: HP Pavilion G6 - 2382sa D0Y14EA#ABU_


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> erm!  ~ actually - .......n...o! - head scratch!
> 
> (above):
> _Using windows pro 10/64, newly installed with all available updates.
> ...


Download and install windows 10 driver https://www.amanero.com/drivers.htm. If you still see it as a sound device, I don't know.


----------



## Paul Staples

Main Source said:


> Did you look under 'sound,video and game controllers ' in the device manager?


yes!  cheers for tip!


----------



## Paul Staples (Nov 29, 2018)

xiamen said:


> Download and install windows 10 driver https://www.amanero.com/drivers.htm. If you still see it as a sound device, I don't know.


After installing driver, still no Amanero?
(see pic):




I am using a USB socket on the laptop that definitely works.
I have rebooted the Laptop.
I have refreshed the device manager.
I have re-installed the USB cable.
I have rebooted the DAC & 'cycled' through the input selector.
The DAC/Amanero is 'stock'. i.e. no mods. (so far).
I haven't done any firmware updates.


----------



## b0bb

Check that the 4 pins joining the powersupply and usb board are correctly seated in their respective sockets and the 2 pin AC power is  properly connected.

Post a photo of the card in your DAC for a closer look.


----------



## Forgisound

xiamen said:


> If you are interested in power supply upgrade for the singxer, you can check on https://kitsunehifi.com/product/singxer-su-1-dc-power-conversion-kit-kitsunehifi-2-1mmx5-5mm/. You will need a decent 5v dc supply source though, say a 5v dc linear power supply. Makes quite a improvement for me. So will a good short hdmi cable. What player software are you using for the DSD512 playback?


I'm in Europe so the delivery would be more expensive than upgrade.

I'm currently using JRiver. I have not yet decided whether to use a computer, or HiFi media server. That's why I have not bought Ronn or HQPlayer yet.


----------



## Paul Staples (Nov 30, 2018)

b0bb said:


> Check that the 4 pins joining the powersupply and usb board are correctly seated in their respective sockets and the 2 pin AC power is  properly connected.
> 
> Post a photo of the card in your DAC for a closer look.







LED lights up red.


----------



## b0bb

Paul Staples said:


> LED lights up red.



The 2pins above J4 are the power supply pins. Check the voltage between these pins on both the PSU and USB board sides.

This will tell you if the USB board is getting power. It might be easier to take the PSU and USB interface out of the DAC,if it is powered the computer will see it if it is working.


----------



## Whitigir

I just got my new addition to this addiction and my gears

Gustard U16 that uses ESS DSP chip not Xmos or Amanero

I connect it via I2S out into LKS004, pins compatible right out of the box with any HDMI cables

I can listen to YouTube and online streaming contents from PC-Windows 10 with 384khz upscaling, and then HQ-Player with many Filter available to do DSD512 upsampling from FLAC.  I was not able to confirm if it was my PC or it was the DSP within Amanero or Xmos that I couldn’t enable more filters, and now I can....it is mostly the DSP.  I am bumped into the very heavy loads filters only as that will require me to get a CUDA to offload some, which may comes later ....

Let’s just say, I shook my head at how fast the Chinese companies and enthusiasts, engineerings are leading this market.  LKS004 was released about 2 years ? But it I2S can take in DSD1028 and so on, PCM768...etc....which allows the usage of External DSP (that enable the usage of Pinkfaun I2S or this new U16).  Yes! I shook my head because the Chinese people are too fast in developing these stuff at affordable price , in the mean while _other so called Brand names are ripping other people off with many new devices that cost thousands and so on.....especially DAC that has no I2S connections 
_
Ok, let’s that sink in for a couple minutes 

Now, pictures 

Mind you that I haven’t even upgraded my PC-USB yet, it is onboard usb!


----------



## Whitigir (Dec 1, 2018)

How come my LKS004 not able to have any sound with 768KHz over I2S input ? Anyone has a clue ? Probably the HQPlayer isn’t working correctly


----------



## littlexx26

I can use all filters in hqplayer with amanero. the clocks in this u16 is 88 femto sec, worse than the ones (82 femto) in amanero used in lks004?


----------



## Whitigir (Dec 2, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> I can use all filters in hqplayer with amanero. the clocks in this u16 is 88 femto sec, worse than the ones (82 femto) in amanero used in lks004?


You are saying you can use all filters in Upsampling DSD512 with Amanero ?

Wow, Ply-Sinc-EXT and DSD512 sounds so good out of this U16 and 004 I2S


----------



## martin778

Has anyone here sold their LKS already? What did you upgrade to?


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> How come my LKS004 not able to have any sound with 768KHz over I2S input ? Anyone has a clue ? Probably the HQPlayer isn’t working correctly


Where did you read that LKS004 can do 768Hz or 1024DSD over I2S? It may be a restriction with the LKS004 and not just the Amanero.


----------



## Whitigir

xiamen said:


> Where did you read that LKS004 can do 768Hz or 1024DSD over I2S? It may be a restriction with the LKS004 and not just the Amanero.


http://www.mu-sound.com/files/MH-DA004.pdf

Nope! There is something wrong with the HQPlayer.  If I convert it into 768 offline, then the lks004 can play it

Yeah, LKS004 is a crazy DAC for it price


----------



## Whitigir

Dang it, I just bought 1030 NVIDIA for CUDA offload and it still can’t run those heavy filter


----------



## Main Source

Hey all, utilizing the volume control I have my  LKS004 outputting directly to a 2 channel amp(Marantz mm7025) with the balanced outputs pushing a pair of B&W 705 S2's, and the unbalanced outputs are going to a pair of svs sb-2000's, left rca to one sub, right rca to the other sub.
Having bypassed my pre-amp the sound is so much better, its jaw dropping, my question is should i be running a splitter to each sub or just run the single rca cable to the lfe input for each sub(I know its not lfe, but it seems to  work).
Sorry if I interrupted anyones discussion


----------



## littlexx26 (Dec 6, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> You are saying you can use all filters in Upsampling DSD512 with Amanero ?
> 
> Wow, Ply-Sinc-EXT and DSD512 sounds so good out of this U16 and 004 I2S



which filter not working with amanero on your lks? i hv tried all at 512. all working


----------



## Whitigir (Dec 6, 2018)

littlexx26 said:


> which filter not working with amanero on your lks? i hv tried all at 512. all working


Poly-sinc-xtr

Closed form

Etc... all those with high processing power.

It is hard to believe that all is working for you, because this problem is not isolated to myself alone, but many others.  Unless you have a super computer that is liquid cooling and run in some isolated quiet  room to process your Music

Some of them will have to be heavy CUDA offload too.  If this is the case, please share your PC build


----------



## littlexx26 (Dec 6, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Poly-sinc-xtr
> 
> Closed form
> 
> ...


what is the source sampling rate? if 44.1, not all filters works here too.
and did u choose poly sinc xtr mp? I think this use multi thread


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> what is the source sampling rate? if 44.1, not all filters works here too.
> and did u choose poly sinc xtr mp? I think this use multi thread


Poly Sinc XTR MP, works just fine.

Yes, most of my files are 44.1.  What sample rate are ideal ?

Anyways, anything not 2S won’t work with Amanero, unless it is this new U16


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Poly Sinc XTR MP, works just fine.
> 
> Yes, most of my files are 44.1.  What sample rate are ideal ?
> 
> Anyways, anything not 2S won’t work with Amanero, unless it is this new U16



upsampling 44.1 is very challenging. even a sound gallery SGM failed to do this


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> upsampling 44.1 is very challenging. even a sound gallery SGM failed to do this



Yeah,  no doubt.  I know how to build a PC probably, but I suck at software tinkering.  I can upsample the majority of my files 44.1 and even 96k to 512 with this PC and U16.  Only a few filters that can’t do.

But if 44.1 is challenging , then what rate is best ?


----------



## littlexx26

Whitigir said:


> Yeah,  no doubt.  I know how to build a PC probably, but I suck at software tinkering.  I can upsample the majority of my files 44.1 and even 96k to 512 with this PC and U16.  Only a few filters that can’t do.
> 
> But if 44.1 is challenging , then what rate is best ?


I did not play with 44.1 anymore. most of my files are either dsd64 or 88.2 at least.
I know those 2x or 3x cores cpu can do all filters easily (from hong kong forum). maybe you better build a new pc.


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> I did not play with 44.1 anymore. most of my files are either dsd64 or 88.2 at least.
> I know those 2x or 3x cores cpu can do all filters easily (from hong kong forum). maybe you better build a new pc.


Mine is running i7-8700k.  It can’t be outdated already, isn’t it 

Anyways, there is a different in using U16 vs Amanero.  The Amanero is very limited, and mostly only 2S filters, with U16, I can use many non 2s


----------



## littlexx26

I guess lks will make a new usb board with this new ess chip?


----------



## Whitigir

littlexx26 said:


> I guess lks will make a new usb board with this new ess chip?



There is no one out there to make and produce this DSP chip yet....let alone L.K.S.

The majority of manufacturers out there is using either Amanero, or Xmos...only a few that uses FPGA, like Chord ? Sony uses it own DSP, and the Sony DSP isn’t any good when I was spending time with 1Z.  The DSP by Sony was very slow and laggy, thought it has a pretty positives on sound performances.

These DSP will need to be capable of very high speed to handle DSD, especially on the fly.  By far, nothing out perform the ESS


----------



## Monolithic

The mini-DA004 has arrived:
https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/l-k-s-audio-mh-da004mini-es9038pro-flagship-dac-audio-decoder.html


----------



## Whitigir

The mini 004 only use single es9038Pro


----------



## Whitigir

Whitigir said:


> The mini 004 only use single es9038Pro


I would just pay some more and get the regular 004.  Once you upgrade the 004 internal clocks, it is a beast for the money, period.


----------



## newtophones07

Whitigir said:


> I would just pay some more and get the regular 004.  Once you upgrade the 004 internal clocks, it is a beast for the money, period.



How do you perform that upgrade?  Is there a link post? Thanks


----------



## Whitigir

newtophones07 said:


> How do you perform that upgrade?  Is there a link post? Thanks


It involves soldering, but you can use search button to find out.

Basically, remove the stock clock, solder in new clock, or dip socket and play with it


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> The 2pins above J4 are the power supply pins. Check the voltage between these pins on both the PSU and USB board sides.
> 
> This will tell you if the USB board is getting power. It might be easier to take the PSU and USB interface out of the DAC,if it is powered the computer will see it if it is working.


there is only the black and red power cables to the power supply board, how do I check the USB board side please?


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> The 2pins above J4 are the power supply pins.



I misread this! - I thought you meant 2 pins higher up that are not part of the J4 cluster (4 pins). But as you know there are no pins above that J4 cluster of "4 pins". So, you must mean two pins within the J4 cluster, like this:


----------



## Paul Staples

Paul Staples said:


> I misread this! - I thought you meant 2 pins higher up that are not part of the J4 cluster (4 pins). But as you know there are no pins above that J4 cluster of "4 pins". So, you must mean two pins within the J4 cluster, like this:


I presume this is DC?
What voltage should it be please?


----------



## Main Source

Hello fellow audio enthusiasts,

Please indulge me as I have a few questions.
Does anyone here utilize the volume control on the LKS004 and not a pre-amp?  I have my  balanced  outputs(XLR) plugged directly to a 2 channel amp(Marantz mm7025), which in turn power a pair of Bowers &  Wilkins 705 S2's. Secondly each unbalanced RCA is going to an SVS SB-2000 subwoofer, left rca to one sub, right rca to the other sub.
Having bypassed my pre-amp the sound is so much better, its jaw dropping and the L.K.S. handles outputting all four signals beautifully. 

Question 1: Should i be running a splitter to each sub's left and right input or just run the single rca cable to the lfe input . 
Question 2:Should I be utilizing a crossover  and could you point me to a simple one? My subs dont have speaker wire terminals to act as a pass through and im afraid that my B&W's are acting as large speakers, receiving the full signal.

Again it sounds great I'm just always looking to improve.

Thank you for your time.


----------



## Paul Staples

I am struggling with the amanero USB board and PSU. Can anyone tell me what the voltage is and whether it is DC?
whitigir, b0bb or anyone?





...many thanks!


----------



## b0bb

Paul Staples said:


> I presume this is DC?
> What voltage should it be please?



5V DC

Measure those J4 points on both the PSU and USB boards.


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> 5V DC
> 
> Measure those J4 points on both the PSU and USB boards.


hi,
it measures 4.70 on the top and underneath (PSU top/USB bottom-underneath) removed from chassis.
Now what?
many thanks!


----------



## b0bb (Dec 8, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> hi,
> it measures 4.70 on the top and underneath (PSU top/USB bottom-underneath) removed from chassis.
> Now what?
> many thanks!


That is borderline and may cause unreliable operation

Switch the multimeter to the AC range and measure, the AC voltage between the points of J1.
I expect it to be at least 7V AC






With the board outside of the DAC, it might to useful to double check by plugging the USB interface into the computer.
The link below is a windows USB viewer utility from NirSoft.
Take the listing before and after you plug in the board, the Amanero USB board will show up on the list if it is working.

https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/usb_devices_view.html
64bit version: https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/usbdeview-x64.zip


----------



## Paul Staples (Dec 8, 2018)

b0bb said:


> That is borderline and may cause unreliable operation
> 
> Switch the multimeter to the AC range and measure, the AC voltage between the points of J1.
> I expect it to be at least 7V AC
> ...



hi,
the AC reading is 7.4v. don't forget the DC measurement could have DMM inaccuracy.
do you mean me to use the USB board on its own or still plugged into the PSU board please?

many thanks!


----------



## b0bb

Paul Staples said:


> hi,
> the AC reading is 7.4v. don't forget the DC measurement could have DMM inaccuracy.
> do you mean me to use the USB board on its own or still plugged into the PSU board please?
> 
> many thanks!



Keep the board powered while doing the windows test.

If your DMM has less than 1% accuracy, get a better unit.


----------



## Paul Staples (Dec 8, 2018)

b0bb said:


> Keep the board powered while doing the windows test.
> 
> If your DMM has less than 1% accuracy, get a better unit.



what should I look for in the nirsoft app. window please? (what details/description/title?)...
screenshot:



many thanks!


----------



## b0bb

Paul Staples said:


> what should I look for in the nirsoft app. window please? (what details/description/title?)...
> screenshot:



Amanero's Vendor ID is 16d0.

Is the USB interface plugged into the PC and the red led on the PSU board glowing ?


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> Amanero's Vendor ID is 16d0.
> 
> Is the USB interface plugged into the PC and the red led on the PSU board glowing ?



what I did was: plugged one end of a usb cable into the laptop, then plugged the other end into the amanero usb board. The 4 pins between the boards were pressed firmly together and the PSU board's light was glowing red. I hope that is what you meant?
That vendor ID is not on the list as you can see. I did refresh a few times as well and tried with different usb cables also.
Many Thanks!


----------



## b0bb

Paul Staples said:


> what I did was: plugged one end of a usb cable into the laptop, then plugged the other end into the amanero usb board. The 4 pins between the boards were pressed firmly together and the PSU board's light was glowing red. I hope that is what you meant?
> That vendor ID is not on the list as you can see. I did refresh a few times as well and tried with different usb cables also.
> Many Thanks!


Is the the first time you used the USB interface?

The USB board is likely faulty as the USB root hub on the PC is not detecting it.


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> Is the the first time you used the USB interface?
> 
> The USB board is likely faulty as the USB root hub on the PC is not detecting it.


Hi,
yes this is the first time I have tried it on the USB. I've been using coax and i2s up to now, for over a year! But I got a rendu cheap which is USB, just to compare to my DIY HTPC.
BTW: the behaviour of that output isn't the same as the others! i.e. the usb stays LOCKED all the time, whereas the others unlock when they are unplugged; is that normal?
Many thanks again, looks like you have helped me to unearth a fault!


----------



## b0bb

Paul Staples said:


> Hi,
> yes this is the first time I have tried it on the USB. I've been using coax and i2s up to now, for over a year! But I got a rendu cheap which is USB, just to compare to my DIY HTPC.
> BTW: the behaviour of that output isn't the same as the others! i.e. the usb stays LOCKED all the time, whereas the others unlock when they are unplugged; is that normal?
> Many thanks again, looks like you have helped me to unearth a fault!



The USB interface reports unlocked if it is working correctly.


----------



## b0bb

Paul Staples said:


> I misread this! - I thought you meant 2 pins higher up that are not part of the J4 cluster (4 pins). But as you know there are no pins above that J4 cluster of "4 pins". So, you must mean two pins within the J4 cluster, like this:


As a matter of completeness, check the other 2 pins, these are the power supply pins for the CPLD/FPGA, both sides (PSU and USB boards) should read 4.7V


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> As a matter of completeness, check the other 2 pins, these are the power supply pins for the CPLD/FPGA, both sides (PSU and USB boards) should read 4.7V


on the top side: pins 1, 2 & 3 have 4.7v.
on the underneath side pins 1 & 3 have 4.7v.
However, I found it hard to get a good contact on those tiny pins (LOL), so I may not be correct!
do you have any idea what I can do now? I bought it new from somewhere in china, but I can't remember where exactly! Don't know if it would have a 3 year warranty? Replacement? Repair?
Looks like I'm stuffed for Xmas music wise! Unless I get a sonore ultradigital to go with the rendu, making it into an i2s device.
many thanks, much appreciated & very grateful.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 8, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> on the top side: pins 1, 2 & 3 have 4.7v.
> on the underneath side pins 1 & 3 have 4.7v.
> However, I found it hard to get a good contact on those tiny pins (LOL), so I may not be correct!
> do you have any idea what I can do now? I bought it new from somewhere in china, but I can't remember where exactly! Don't know if it would have a 3 year warranty? Replacement? Repair?
> ...



The replacement board is about 160USD, I think it is worthwhile to see if you can get it replaced under warranty.

Sonore Ultradigital is a modified Singxer, in many respects what the SU-1 should have been, taking out the extra interfaces for AES, toslink etc means less overall RF noise.

Just over the horizon is the Singxer SU-6 with the much better CCHD-957 and their homemade crystal oven.
However they added too much fluff like extra I2S outputs, I am waiting to see if they are able to do a better job at keeping RF  noise under control, the extra fluff does not help, internal pictures suggest it is XU208 based so no DSD1024

I2S input on the 004 is very sensitive to RF noise, this can make it sound worse than   $99 USB "DAC-on-a-stick" devices

DSD1024 support seems to be absent in the Singxer line at the moment

Better designed competitors to the U16 will be appearing, I am waiting for someone to make a U16 like device with galvanic isolation on the I2S output.


----------



## Whitigir

I don’t know what out there can do dsd1024 , lks004 is Built ahead of it time


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> The replacement board is about 160USD, I think it is worthwhile to see if you can get it replaced under warranty.
> 
> Sonore Ultradigital is a modified Singxer, in many respects what the SU-1 should have been, taking out the extra interfaces for AES, toslink etc means less overall RF noise.
> 
> ...



Plenty to think about here! Many thanks for all your support!

I'll consider the Amanero 'dead' and use your info to help me make the next decision! Got the rendu cheap but now the cost escalates anyway, thus wiping out my bargain buy! Unfortunate turn of events, something to ponder on a sunday afternoon. One door closes and another opens! But now to bed in UK.

Many thanks!


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> As a matter of completeness, check the other 2 pins, these are the power supply pins for the CPLD/FPGA, both sides (PSU and USB boards) should read 4.7V



please can you tell me the 2 probe combinations of the completeness tests?
e.g. pins 1+2, 1+3, 1+4; OR 1+2 & 3+4 etc.
i.e. what are the pin test configurations please?
Just to make sure, for certain!
This has only just occurred to me!

Many thanks!


----------



## b0bb

Paul Staples said:


> please can you tell me the 2 probe combinations of the completeness tests?
> e.g. pins 1+2, 1+3, 1+4; OR 1+2 & 3+4 etc.
> i.e. what are the pin test configurations please?
> Just to make sure, for certain!
> ...


On the PSU board, J4 Pins 1 and 4 are connected together as are 2 and 3, there are only 2 options.


----------



## Paul Staples (Dec 9, 2018)

b0bb said:


> On the PSU board, J4 Pins 1 and 4 are connected together as are 2 and 3, there are only 2 options.


Right:
...on both the amanero board and the PSU board I can now confirm the readings are 4.70v on pins 1/2 & 3/4 respectively. Had a little more patience today to get a proper contact on the pins with the probes, using a gunsons pocket meter 2, VOLTS DC: 0 20V Accuracy + 0.8% + 2 digits Impedance 1 Meg ohm.
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/AspSiteAssets/download_files/G4143_Instructions.pdf



...many thanks!

*PLEASE NOTE: *the NIrsoft test was done with the amanero/PSU outside of the chassis, was that correct?

...are these the latest boards?
 

cheers!


----------



## b0bb (Dec 9, 2018)

Paul Staples said:


> Right:
> ...on both the amanero board and the PSU board I can now confirm the readings are 4.70v on pins 1/2 & 3/4 respectively. Had a little more patience today to get a proper contact on the pins with the probes, using a gunsons pocket meter 2, VOLTS DC: 0 20V Accuracy + 0.8% + 2 digits Impedance 1 Meg ohm.
> https://www.machinemart.co.uk/AspSiteAssets/download_files/G4143_Instructions.pdf
> 
> ...



The USB interface can be tested outside of the  chassis.

Boards in the picture are the latest ones.

These 2 additional things that you can try.
1)Get an unused USB cable like the one you used to connect to the computer, cut off the computer end plug and strip back the insulation to get to the 4 wires, check that the wire ends have continuity with the pins on the USB socket on the other end. Turn the USB board over, there is a cluster of 4 pins under the USB socket.

2)There are 6 voltage regulators on the board check they are working correctly. These are the little rectangular ICs with 5 pins.
You will have to temporarily solder 4 wires between the PSU board and the USB board to connect both ends of J4.
The spring contacts on the pin sockets can stretch and deform easily, be careful about sticking wires into those.

Pins1 and 3 should be 4.7V, pin 5 should be 3.3V.


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> Plenty to think about here! Many thanks for all your support!
> 
> I'll consider the Amanero 'dead' and use your info to help me make the next decision! Got the rendu cheap but now the cost escalates anyway, thus wiping out my bargain buy! Unfortunate turn of events, something to ponder on a sunday afternoon. One door closes and another opens! But now to bed in UK.
> 
> Many thanks!


Have you tried installing the amanero driver onto your windows pc (not the rendu) and connect it to the lks004 by usb already?


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> The USB interface can be tested outside of the  chassis.
> 
> Boards in the picture are the latest ones.
> 
> ...



hi,
1) the continuity is good/fine on all four pins.
2) on the diagram, what is: "EN"?
    didn't realise there were any spring contacts! ~ thanks for warning.
    I'll do the soldering tomorrow, bit late now ('here').

   ....many thanks for continued support.


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> Have you tried installing the amanero driver onto your windows pc (not the rendu) and connect it to the lks004 by usb already?


yes thanks! - already  done that.

cheers!


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> yes thanks! - already  done that.
> 
> cheers!


I assume you have checked voltages from the red/white wires etc. Then I say the problem lies with the Amanero. Your hope will be it's not hardware but firmware corruption. That's known to be the culprit. To "fix" that, just reflash the firmware, could be to the same version. Not a straight forward task. You need to remove the cover and the back panel first. There are instructions in one of Whitgir's earlier post.


----------



## xiamen

Main Source said:


> Hello fellow audio enthusiasts,
> 
> Please indulge me as I have a few questions.
> Does anyone here utilize the volume control on the LKS004 and not a pre-amp?  I have my  balanced  outputs(XLR) plugged directly to a 2 channel amp(Marantz mm7025), which in turn power a pair of Bowers &  Wilkins 705 S2's. Secondly each unbalanced RCA is going to an SVS SB-2000 subwoofer, left rca to one sub, right rca to the other sub.
> ...


I would think that depends what pre-amp you are bypassing and comparing to. There are pre-amp out there that costs many times the price of the LKS004. With the lfe, I'm intrigued. I always though red book cd or sacd don't have lfe outputs, just movies. May be you are just directing the low frequencies to the SVS SB-2000 as well to give the bass a boost?


----------



## Paul Staples (Dec 9, 2018)

xiamen said:


> I assume you have checked voltages from the red/white wires etc. Then I say the problem lies with the Amanero. Your hope will be it's not hardware but firmware corruption. That's known to be the culprit. To "fix" that, just reflash the firmware, could be to the same version. Not a straight forward task. You need to remove the cover and the back panel first. There are instructions in one of Whitgir's earlier post.


_"I assume you have checked voltages from the red/white wires etc"_. ....maybe not? I'm not quite sure of what you mean?
cheers!

PS: could not re-flash! see pic:


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> _"I assume you have checked voltages from the red/white wires etc"_. ....maybe not? I'm not quite sure of what you mean?
> cheers!


You said "Right: ...on both the amanero board and the PSU board I can now confirm the readings are 4.70v on pins 1/2 & 3/4 respectively. Had a little more patience today to get a proper contact on the pins with the probes, using a gunsons pocket meter 2, VOLTS DC: 0 20V Accuracy + 0.8% + 2 digits Impedance 1 Meg ohm.". So you did checked voltages.


----------



## b0bb

Paul Staples said:


> hi,
> 1) the continuity is good/fine on all four pins.
> 2) on the diagram, what is: "EN"?
> didn't realise there were any spring contacts! ~ thanks for warning.
> ...


EN is the enable pin, should be at least 2/3rds of supply voltage to turn on regulator.


----------



## Main Source

xiamen said:


> I would think that depends what pre-amp you are bypassing and comparing to. There are pre-amp out there that costs many times the price of the LKS004. With the lfe, I'm intrigued. I always though red book cd or sacd don't have lfe outputs, just movies. May be you are just directing the low frequencies to the SVS SB-2000 as well to give the bass a boost?


Thanks for responding. The only pre-amp I ever used was in the receiver , either a denon(x4200) or marantz(sr7010) but I realized my monitors would probably open up  a bit with a dedicated 2 channel amp, even though I was using the AVR's  with only 2 speakers attached and using the sub output on the receiver for bass(subwoofers) , it occured to me that maybe I could utilize all 4 outputs on the LKS, THE pair of balanced and the pair of unbalanced since I didnt see a selector switch I assumed the audio signal would be output to all four outputs simultaneously ;. This turned out to be the case `, I have an IFI Micro IUSB, IDefender, and an IGalvanic all with carbon audioquest cables , rocket 33 speaker wire and several other de-crapifiers. I got  most of that stuff  heavily discounted as I worked at Magnolia. I tell you none of that stuff came anywhere near the clarity and low noise floor that I heard when I got rid of the receiver. The speakers outputting from the Marantz mm7025/DAC combo  sound fantastic although I would have rather used a higher end amp I got it for 300 bucks due to my employee discount,, down from 800, it puts out 140 watts for each channel and has balanced inputs . So the pair of subs act as a left and right speaker only just outputting bass through the remaining unbalanced outputs of the LKS. 

As for content I mainly use Tidal Masters through windows, wav ,FLAC from HDtracks.com  and even some SACD's if I break out the oppo 203. So there is no LFE just bass frequencies which get sent to all 4 speakers equally(2 subs, 2 speakers), it sounds great but I cant help thinking some sort of crossover would benefit me


----------



## Paul Staples (Dec 9, 2018)

xiamen said:


> You said "Right: ...on both the amanero board and the PSU board I can now confirm the readings are 4.70v on pins 1/2 & 3/4 respectively. Had a little more patience today to get a proper contact on the pins with the probes, using a gunsons pocket meter 2, VOLTS DC: 0 20V Accuracy + 0.8% + 2 digits Impedance 1 Meg ohm.". So you did checked voltages.



OK I tried the flash just with the USB cable, you didn't say anything about being connected to the PSU as well and that is why it didn't work! (LOL).
So, I tried it again with the PSU connected this time and following the online instructions on Head-fi ('here').
It worked!! Amazing!! Much appreciated....
see pic:







So now I guess I wont need to check the six regulators? (for voltage).....
i.e. firmware corruption, wink wink!


----------



## Paul Staples

managed to blow the fuse with the mains contact that is nearest to the bottom of the chassis as the protective rubber boot is quite lose on the faston spade terminal on the IEC socket at the back when the rear panel was unscrewed.
I don't know the amperage of the 250v fuse in the IEC housing. anyone know please?
Cheers!

...it's gold and white.


----------



## Paul Staples (Dec 10, 2018)

b0bb said:


> EN is the enable pin, should be at least 2/3rds of supply voltage to turn on regulator.


I was about to declare the amanero board as 'dead' and buy a new one from china costing £140 + shipping + customs charges. I am grateful for @b0bb suggestions and very grateful for the hardware tests. But then @xiamen suggested a software solution, i.e. to re-install the firmware (flash) and this turned out to be the problem!
I thought, well, as the board is probably dead anyway (?), I might as well try it and see what happens. Nothing lost and all to gain! So, I tried it, and it worked, great!
Thanks to both b0bb and xiamen for their combined help and support, most grateful to you both, Cheers!


----------



## xiamen

Main Source said:


> Thanks for responding. The only pre-amp I ever used was in the receiver , either a denon(x4200) or marantz(sr7010) but I realized my monitors would probably open up  a bit with a dedicated 2 channel amp, even though I was using the AVR's  with only 2 speakers attached and using the sub output on the receiver for bass(subwoofers) , it occured to me that maybe I could utilize all 4 outputs on the LKS, THE pair of balanced and the pair of unbalanced since I didnt see a selector switch I assumed the audio signal would be output to all four outputs simultaneously ;. This turned out to be the case `, I have an IFI Micro IUSB, IDefender, and an IGalvanic all with carbon audioquest cables , rocket 33 speaker wire and several other de-crapifiers. I got  most of that stuff  heavily discounted as I worked at Magnolia. I tell you none of that stuff came anywhere near the clarity and low noise floor that I heard when I got rid of the receiver. The speakers outputting from the Marantz mm7025/DAC combo  sound fantastic although I would have rather used a higher end amp I got it for 300 bucks due to my employee discount,, down from 800, it puts out 140 watts for each channel and has balanced inputs . So the pair of subs act as a left and right speaker only just outputting bass through the remaining unbalanced outputs of the LKS.
> 
> As for content I mainly use Tidal Masters through windows, wav ,FLAC from HDtracks.com  and even some SACD's if I break out the oppo 203. So there is no LFE just bass frequencies which get sent to all 4 speakers equally(2 subs, 2 speakers), it sounds great but I cant help thinking some sort of crossover would benefit me


Can't see how you can crossover between the balanced and unbalanced outputs. But are you comparing LKS004 preamp/dedicated power amp with AVR pre/power amp? May be the improvement is just from the power amp section. You can try connect the LKS004 output (without using the LKS004 as pre-amp) back to the AVR and have AVR pre-outs to the dedicated power amp. This is you are truly comparing LKS004 pre-amp with AVR pre-amp. This will then allow you to connect the sub-woofers to the AVR (and thereby using the AVR crossover) and compare that to connecting to the LKS004 XLR directly (with no crossover). This way you can also have hdmi inputs to the AVR (for movies) and still take advantage of the dedicated power amp.


----------



## Main Source

xiamen said:


> Can't see how you can crossover between the balanced and unbalanced outputs. But are you comparing LKS004 preamp/dedicated power amp with AVR pre/power amp? May be the improvement is just from the power amp section. You can try connect the LKS004 output (without using the LKS004 as pre-amp) back to the AVR and have AVR pre-outs to the dedicated power amp. This is you are truly comparing LKS004 pre-amp with AVR pre-amp. This will then allow you to connect the sub-woofers to the AVR (and thereby using the AVR crossover) and compare that to connecting to the LKS004 XLR directly (with no crossover). This way you can also have hdmi inputs to the AVR (for movies) and still take advantage of the dedicated power amp.


That was my original configuration , then I remembered Paul S. saying " the best pre-amp is no pre-amp at all" or something to that effect. So I cut out the AVR, Im just going to leave it as is, dont really need the crossover, even though it would help isolate the lower end a bit better. The LKS has really impressed me, I also have a bunch of smsl dacs like the m8 and an IFI Micro IDSD Black label for my sennheisers and the LKS smokes the lot of em, hands down

I think next would be to begin modding it or send it to a pro modder, and maybe mess with a pink faun or singxer, we will see, thanks for the input!


----------



## Paul Staples

@Whitigir @b0bb @xiamen 

or anyone?

managed to blow the fuse with the mains contact that is nearest to the bottom of the chassis as the protective rubber boot is quite lose on the faston spade terminal on the IEC socket at the back when the rear panel was unscrewed.
I don't know the amperage of the 250v fuse in the IEC housing. anyone know please?
Cheers!

...it's gold and white.


----------



## b0bb

If there are markings on the endcaps, post the photos of the fuse


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> If there are markings on the endcaps, post the photos of the fuse


...no markings as far as I can see!
Time for me to give a little bit back to the forum:

Received a message from Jinbo. He has stated that the 250v (UK) fuse should be 3.15 amps. This may hopefully help others with same question.


----------



## Forgisound

I would like to share the latest LKS 004 sound impressions.
Meanwhile, I bought Singxer SU-1 Bridge and SoTM SMS 200 Ultra streamer. With SMS 200 Ultra, everything has come to its naught. Bass gained on volume and definition, overall, the sound was further cleansed by distortion. The sound image is now wide and deep. The timbar of the piano is perfect, brilliantly focused, the violin sounds very clear and precise. Dynamics is great. Despite its exceptional precision, the sound is not only clinically clean, but still highly involved.
I just know what LKS 004 can do.


----------



## Whitigir

One of the biggest upgrade to LKs004 is the clock.  If anyone who can do it, just do it.  The rest can be left alone


----------



## Forgisound

Whitigir said:


> One of the biggest upgrade to LKs004 is the clock.  If anyone who can do it, just do it.  The rest can be left alone


Yes, but for older model with stronger regulator. I have newest model. I believe Bobb that Crystek 950X can help, so I ordered it. But I'm sorry I can not fit an even better clock.
Which clock did you upgrade?


----------



## Whitigir

Forgisound said:


> Yes, but for older model with stronger regulator. I have newest model. I believe Bobb that Crystek 950X can help, so I ordered it. But I'm sorry I can not fit an even better clock.
> Which clock did you upgrade?


 I have an older model and fit it with Abracon OCXO


----------



## Forgisound

Can you describe the sound difference Crystec-Abracon more in detail?


----------



## littlexx26 (Dec 20, 2018)

getting a sotm sCLK-OCX10 to upgrade your streamer is better than changing the 575 in your lks004


----------



## Whitigir

Yeh, clocking up or down stream are both important


----------



## Forgisound

The next upgrade will be sps-500 psu.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 20, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> Yeh, clocking up or down stream are both important


Agreed.

SOTM SMS-200 ultra transport feeding SU-1 I2S + LKS 004 with the OCXO master clock is a great combo.
This setup is the first time I have seen positive results converting PCM->DSD .

Ultra version has the sCLK board providing the 3 clocks to the SMS200 board.


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> getting a sotm sCLK-OCX10 to upgrade your streamer is better than changing the 575 in your lks004


But isn't the sCLK-OCX10 far more expensive than LKS004 itself, let alone any LKS004 clock upgrade.


----------



## rafals

It is hard to get Crystek 950X and do you think that this would be ok for the newer 004:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/abracon-llc/ABLNO-100.000MHZ/535-12347-ND/4240080
?
It is hard to get other parts for upgrading USB and LKS (diodes, caps etc.).


----------



## b0bb (Dec 22, 2018)

rafals said:


> It is hard to get Crystek 950X and do you think that this would be ok for the newer 004:
> https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/abracon-llc/ABLNO-100.000MHZ/535-12347-ND/4240080
> ?
> It is hard to get other parts for upgrading USB and LKS (diodes, caps etc.).


The ABLNO is a more aggressive version of the the 575, much better defined top end, much leaner bottom end.
Some consider the lean bottom end to be a shortcoming, if you like deep bass extension avoid this.

Attached picture is some of the XOs I have tried, have not mentioned them until now as I consider them to be less then ideal.
The picture was from when I experimented on the Yulong DA-8



More detailed comments here.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-18#post-12666530


----------



## rafals

Thank you so much. 
The choice is limited by the smaller PSU in 004. Maybe it's better to install an external PCB with OCXO and its own PSU?


----------



## sanvara (Dec 23, 2018)

I just bought one of these used. How can you tell if it's the standard USB or upgraded?

Another question is I have a Schiit Eitr already. Will it provide a benefit to run USB to the Eitr and then Eitr to coax on the DA004 versus using USB in? I'm assuming it would reduce jitter but I don't want to add something to the chain that won't provide a noticeable benefit. Or should I sell the Eitr and get something else? I'd consider $200-$500 range if it provides a clearly audible benefit.


----------



## oldearwax

Hi,  my setup is  foobar(usb)->LKS004. 
Playing DSF file via foobar ... the channels are reversed (compare to PCM files).
Also tried DSD processor in foobar (i.e. PCM->DSD using foobar),
same result.

Attempt to correct the problem using foobar channel mapping:
foobar gives a table of 16 entries !!!

I tried  1. right 2. left  (rest none) to noavail  (still reversed !)
I tried MANY other combinations like 1. right 2. right 3. left 4. left (rest none),
thinking that there are two outputs (SE and balanced) per channel.

I am not sure why I got 16 entries ?


----------



## Lennym

sanvara said:


> I just bought one of these used. How can you tell if it's the standard USB or upgraded?
> 
> Another question is I have a Schiit Eitr already. Will it provide a benefit to run USB to the Eitr and then Eitr to coax on the DA004 versus using USB in? I'm assuming it would reduce jitter but I don't want to add something to the chain that won't provide a noticeable benefit. Or should I sell the Eitr and get something else? I'd consider $200-$500 range if it provides a clearly audible benefit.



The upgrade has two small stacked boards in the corner where the USB connection is.  The upper board is the power supply and has a long wire extended to it from one of the transformers for power.

If you have the upgrade, you probably don't need anything else.  But since you have the Eitr, why don't you just connect and listen?  Otherwise there are many options as from LKS and Singxer.  Do a search, first within this thread.


----------



## Whitigir

Channel reverse is usually the DDC fault, feeding out i2s.  Happened to me on gustard u16, and firmware fixed it


----------



## sanvara (Dec 24, 2018)

Lennym said:


> The upgrade has two small stacked boards in the corner where the USB connection is.  The upper board is the power supply and has a long wire extended to it from one of the transformers for power.
> 
> If you have the upgrade, you probably don't need anything else.  But since you have the Eitr, why don't you just connect and listen?  Otherwise there are many options as from LKS and Singxer.  Do a search, first within this thread.



Thanks for the info on the upgraded USB.

My initial thought was if I have standard USB then Eitr it should be a benefit whereas if I have upgraded USB maybe not so much? I actually have tried listening with Eitr through Coax and then also just directly into the USB port and the differences seem very subtle even though I believe I have the standard USB, so it made me wonder if I might have the upgraded USB.

Just found someone did a review of a lot of these S/PDIF devices and subjectively ranks the Eitr very high, above Singxer SU-1 and F1 and on par with Mutec MC-3+. I don't know how reliably these types of reviews translate to the LKS though.

http://www.basshead.club/spdif-battle-mutec-singxer-lynx-rednet-et-al/


----------



## xiamen

sanvara said:


> Thanks for the info on the upgraded USB.
> 
> My initial thought was if I have standard USB then Eitr it should be a benefit whereas if I have upgraded USB maybe not so much? I actually have tried listening with Eitr through Coax and then also just directly into the USB port and the differences seem very subtle even though I believe I have the standard USB, so it made me wonder if I might have the upgraded USB.
> 
> ...


It seems convoluted to go from usb to spdif then to lks004. It feels more logical to go from usb to i2s directly either via internal amanero or external singxer su-1  etc. Unless you beleive spdif has something over i2s.


----------



## Lennym

xiamen said:


> It seems convoluted to go from usb to spdif then to lks004. It feels more logical to go from usb to i2s directly either via internal amanero or external singxer su-1  etc. Unless you beleive spdif has something over i2s.



I agree.  If the improvement with the Eitr was subtle, then it is likely that an upgraded (LKS or Singxer) USB to I2S will bring a further increase in SQ.  However, in audio one never knows for sure until trying.  Too many variables from sound files to ears.

You can purchase the two boards making up the LKS upgrade and put them in if you can figure out how to get power to them.  Perhaps someone can advise how to tap a transformer.  Or is the 5V wire already in there?


----------



## Monolithic (Dec 31, 2018)

Just posting for future reference:

Top view of newer board version.








Bottom view of newer board version with components mounted on the bottom and tied to a common heat sink which makes contact with the bottom of the case.






Heat sinks of solid aluminum blocks on the bottom of the board for chips on either side of the clock.  The bottom heat sinks make contact on the bottom of the case.







The I/V resistors are now partially obscured by the bottom heat sink.  Value appears to be 62 ohms +/- 0.10% (wattage unknown) metal film (6mm size). Hole spacing at 11.5mm.







Connection of IV resistor from top view and hole spacing.  TX2575-3 IV resistor will be approximately 22mm long (6mm chip width x 3 + 4mm of spacing):



 



*Current Testing of IV Resistor:*

Signal:         1kHz
Volume:        0db
Meter:           DM-820A, AC, Auto Range

Voltage:        2.812 Vac
Resistance:  62R000
Current:       0.064132 A (64.132 mA)
Power:         0.254999 watts


----------



## b0bb (Dec 31, 2018)

*Measuring DAC fullscale output current.*
Method described below measures  peak output current of the DAC which in-turn determines the wattage of the upgraded I/V resistor.

The method plays back a pre-generated fullscale sinewave signal thru the DAC.
The rms voltage across the I/V resistor is measured.

I have attached  0dB FS sinewave WAV files that can be played back on a MAC or PC

Steps
1) Plugin computer to the USB port on the 004
2) Select the Amanero audio device corresponding to the DAC and set it as the default
3) Set volume control on PC/MAC to the *MAX*
4) Set volume control on 004 to *FIXED*
5) Playback the attached WAV file (audiocheck.net_sin_1000Hz_0dBFS_10s.wav.zip)
6) Measure the AC voltage across the I/V resistor during the playback.

The red boxes indicate the position of the I/V resistors on the Gen1 board.


Multimeters costing less than 100USD may have problems accurately measuring the AC voltage at 1kHz.
I have included another test file with a 50Hz sinewave (wavTones.com.sin_50Hz_0dBFS_5s.wav.zip)

_Take due care to avoid connecting headphones or speakers during this test if there is no volume control after the DAC._

*Analysis and calculation*
V: measured AC voltage across I/V resistor in Volts
R: I/V resistor value in ohms
I: Peak current output of DAC in Amps

*I = (1.414 * V)/R*

Resistor wattage is *I * I * R*.

Plugging in some real numbers.
On my Gen1 DAC

V = 3.14V
R = 68.1 ohm
I = 0.0652A (65.2mA)

Peak resistor dissipation is 0.289W.
The actual resistor should have 2X the rating given the poor ventilation in the 004, thus 0.6W or better.
I plan to use TX2575-2 (2 module Z-foil@0.4W) this reduces the cost by 30% from my original estimate.

*Note:*
These numbers are for my Gen1 DAC, the Gen2s have bigger heat sinks which suggests that LKS may have increased the peak output current.
The method described here will help answer the question as to whether LKS made any changes here.


----------



## Whitigir

What ohm value are u replacing those Resistors with ? 68 ohms ?


----------



## b0bb (Dec 31, 2018)

Whitigir said:


> What ohm value are u replacing those Resistors with ? 68 ohms ?


68.1 ohm Vishay TX2575-2, these are 2 module Z-foil 0.8W resistors.

I expect your Gen1 DAC to be similar, but check the underside for the actual value on your unit.

Note:
Gen2 owners should measure their units, value discussed above is for the Gen1 board only.


----------



## Monolithic

b0bb said:


> 68.1 ohm Vishay TX2575-2, these are 2 module Z-foil 0.8W resistors.
> 
> I expect your Gen1 DAC to be similar, but check the underside for the actual value on your unit.
> 
> ...



How much variance can be expected due to input signal variables?  Desktop or laptop plugged in versus battery, etc.

I get 2.812 Vac using Foobar and 1kHz signal via laptop battery powered on Gen2.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> How much variance can be expected due to input signal variables?  Desktop or laptop plugged in versus battery, etc.
> 
> I get 2.812 Vac using Foobar and 1kHz signal via laptop battery powered on Gen2.



Not much, the signal coming in from the PC is digital, most of the variance is due the the AC voltmenter used.
If you want to double check run the 50Hz WAV file, it should give identical results if things are working properly.

Your DAC's peak output current is 64mA giving 0.26W dissipation across the I/V resistor
Mine is 65mA and 0.29W


----------



## Monolithic (Dec 31, 2018)

I used a DM-820a meter and did both 1kHz and 50Hz (I did not wait as long on the 50Hz to settle out which might account for the difference).  I am most likely looking to move the IV resistors to the top of the board as the Gen2 has the transistors and heat sink on the bottom of the board.  The Gen2 also has vias (thru holes) that the Gen1 does not have (see previous post - spaced out 18mm).  Would be nice to have the schematics to be assured of the connections within the four layered PCB.


----------



## MartinWT

This thread has been an excellent read, thank you all for the depth of information offered here.  It has taken me three days to get through it.  I am very close to ordering a new LKS MH-DA004 and I have two questions for you:

1) LKS advertise the femtoclock as having 82fs of jitter at 100MHz.  Is this the same as in the early models, the clock which some of you are replacing?  The Tentlabs superclock I installed in my current DAC has <3ps from 10Hz and was an excellent upgrade.  I'm wondering how they compare.

2) I only stream from Spotify HQ and Qobuz Studio, which means the highest data rate is 24/192.  I currently have an Allo DigiOne so I will be using the S/PDIF co-ax input.  Will there be any future sound quality benefit in switching to the I2S input with, say, the Audiophonics RaspDIGI LDE LVDS streamer with Kali reclocker?

Many thanks for your hel


----------



## rikm

...anyone know if the one just up on Massdrop is the new one or just has the new clocks?


----------



## wersuss

Hello, my DAC 004 USB stopped working after i left it running over night. In The morning i've noticed that sound was just some digital static noise, unplugged usb cable and plugged back computer no longer recognise USB. Other inputs like coax works. Is it possible to replace USB card in this 004 DAC?


----------



## MartinWT

Anyone?  Especially my question 1).


----------



## newtophones07

When changing source bitrate/sample rate/DSD etc, across a music library, can you hear a click on this DAC?


----------



## Paul Staples

A DAC that crushes price vs. performance ratio:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/a-dac-that-crushes-price-vs-performance-ratio
_"I felt strongly that I wanted to inform the Gon members about a new DAC that ranks with the very best on the market regarding performance, but costs around $2,000.00.  The Lab12 DAC1 SE was compared to three reference level DACS that retail for over $12.000.00 in my review for hometheaterreview.com and was at least on the same level sonicly, if not better.  This DAC from Greece is not just "good for the money" but competes with virtually anything on the market regardless of price!" ..............._


----------



## Monolithic

MartinWT said:


> 1) LKS advertise the femtoclock as having 82fs of jitter at 100MHz.  Is this the same as in the early models, the clock which some of you are replacing?  The Tentlabs superclock I installed in my current DAC has <3ps from 10Hz and was an excellent upgrade.  I'm wondering how they compare.



As far as I am aware, there has been only a single clock used by the manufacturer in all versions of the 003 and 004 dacs. 
http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/clock/CCHD-575.pdf


----------



## MartinWT

Thank you @Monolithic that's very useful to know.


----------



## Monolithic (Jan 11, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> Thank you @Monolithic that's very useful to know.


The one issue with the latest board revisions for 004 dac is that the power supplied to the clock has been significantly reduced, greatly limiting the possible clock swapping options as compared to the earlier dac design (003) and the earlier board versions of the 004.  More details can be found in this thread and the 003 thread.


----------



## MartinWT

Any impressions from speaker owners? I'm more of a speaker user.

Very interested in placing an order for the LKS soon.


----------



## oldearwax

My audio chain is: foobar->LKS004->(2Watt tube amp)->speakers.
I ordered LKS004 via amazon with  USB power board.
It sounded "thin" and later developed some problems and I sent it back.
I ordered LKS004 a 2nd time with USB LT3042 power board after reading advice 
from this thread. The sound is wide, has vertical and music fills the room.
It is particularly good with strings (violins, cellos) and live recordings, very detail...
I found myself looking for violin concertos after acquiring this DAC. Hope this helps.


----------



## newtophones07

oldearwax said:


> I ordered LKS004 a 2nd time with USB LT3042 power board after reading advice
> .



what is the LT3042?


----------



## oldearwax

[


newtophones07 said:


> what is the LT3042?


It refers to the IC linear regulator on the power supply that is piggyback on the Amanero (USB to I2S) board


----------



## aggielaw

MartinWT said:


> Any impressions from speaker owners? I'm more of a speaker user.
> 
> Very interested in placing an order for the LKS soon.



I use speakers as well.  One caveat: I have a modified LKS, as I had the DAC shipped to Ric Schultz (EVS Audio) for his modifications before receiving it myself. I recall Ric specifically commenting to me about how much better the bass was post-mod.  

I have used the LKS with a Sonore ultraRendu attached, and now use the SOtM 200ultra Neo "trifecta."  Yesterday my Sonore ultraDigital arrived and I now have it in the chain as well.  Also, last weekend I took it to an acquaintance's house and heard it in a custom theater with a SOtM 200ultra (non-neo version) feeding it and then running through a Marantz AVR.  I also got to hear the owner's setup, which features a PS Audio DirectStream DAC instead of the LKS.

I use Roon for playback.

The LKS uses dual ESS Sabre 9038PRO chips.  ESS's Sabre chips are often accused of being bright by DIY DAC builders.  I would not describe the LKS as "bright" by any means, but it has a significant emphasis on the leading edge of notes, giving it both a "fast" and "hard" feel to it with some recordings.  Uncorrected, it causes the timbre of guitars and pianos to tilt up a bit, and uncorrected in the wrong system this could cause listener fatigue in time.  Listener fatigue is usually associated with brightness, but that is not the case with the LKS.  It's the aggressive attack of the leading edge of notes that may cause fatigue.  I have all but eliminated this problem in my system by using Roon's DSP and adding a 1dB bump at 250Hz.  For male vocals, I often use a 1dB bump at 125Hz as well.  Because of the aggressive leading edge I found the ultraRendu to be an inferior match with the LKS.  I read a professional reviewer refer to it as a "hardness in the midrange" when reviewing the ultraRendu.  The SOtM is a better match for the LKS, as are Bluesound products.

When I listened at my fellow audio society member's house last weekend the LKS's upward timber tilt was more apparent than with my own system.  Piano did not sound nearly as natural in his system than in mine, but again, this was in his custom HT system rather than his reference two-channel system.  The PS Audio DirectStream sounded much more natural in his system.  Once he placed the ultraDigital in the chain, piano in particular improved immensely without any degradation in any other sonic characteristic, so I purchased an ultraDigital.   The benefit is less pronounced in my system, but the ultraDigital does further reduce the aggressive leading edge attack while somehow improving the transparency of recordings, so for its relatively modest price I'll keep it.  It bears noting that my findings in this regard are consistent with other users in this thread: LKS fed via I2S is superior to USB even with the Amanero board.  Consequently, resale value aside, I recommend those purchasing new get the non-Amanero LKS and invest that money in a USB-I2S converter.

So far I've given you the weakness of the LKS.  Frankly, it's the only weakness of the LKS if you want accurate, transparent, detailed reproduction of music.  To my knowledge, there are two contenders in this general price range to the LKS: the Benchmark DAC 3 and the Kitsune-tuned Holo DAC.  I have not heard the latter, so my assertion that it is a competitor is hearsay.  I have heard the Benchmark twice and enjoyed it tremendously both times.  It uses a single Sabre 9028 chip.  The rep I spoke with from Benchmark said they tried the 9038PRO in R&D and could not get it to sound as natural as the 9028.  Indeed, the Benchmark sounds slightly more natural with piano and has a slightly warmer timbre with acoustic guitar than the LKS.  However, it isn't quite as transparent or detailed.  I think of it as a step toward the sound described by Holo DAC owners, offering a middle ground between the two presentation styles.

The single greatest strength of the LKS is the soundstage.  It is simply stunning.  Last night, for example, I listened to a live recording in which the lead singer's voice was a full three feet higher than my tweeters.  On recordings that somehow throw sound outside the width of the speakers I hear that, too.  When I listen to duets, trios, and so forth I can hear exactly where each voice is, and I can hear when a singer moves in relation to the microphone.  Each instrument has its own space, in both width and depth.  I should note I had to work harder to get my speaker placement right with the LKS than any other piece of equipment I've ever owned. Getting the vocal/instrumental balance right was somewhat of a challenge, but then there was this odd situation in which the stage was so huge that it sounded disjointed.  That was more difficult to solve, but once I got the speakers in the right place I was rewarded with a presentation that literally brings tears with many tracks. 

Otherwise, the thing I would say about the LKS is its presentation is honest.  I often read about DACs such as the Holo DAC having an "organic" presentation.  I used to own a set of STEALTH Hybrid MLT speaker cables that gave this presentation.  It's appealing, to be sure, much in the way most tubes provide a seductive, comfortable presentation.  Sometimes I really enjoy that presentation.  The vast majority of the time I want what the recording engineer gave me - no more, no less (see: https://www.innerfidelity.com/conte...NCgQ2V-a6rquUpd1sOtBeo0mRFhrgrcH8CtIvcgzBYz9E).  The LKS give me that.

Despite my acknowledgement that the DirectSream DAC is probably superior to my LKS at least in terms of tonality, I have no inclination to swap the LKS for the DirectStream.  The presentation is so immersive and so transparent I simply have no desire to replace the LKS.

My complete digital chain looks like this:

SOtM 200ultra Neo "trifecta"
Sonore ultraDigital
LKS MH-D004
SMc Audio VRE-1C
Fully modded McCormack DNA-125 (mods by SMc Audio)
Ridge Street Audio Designs Sason Ltd loudspeakers
Pair of Rytmik F12 subs

I hope this is helpful to you.  Best of luck with your purchase decision!


----------



## newtophones07

Is it necessary to order with the "upgraded" crystek CCHD-957 option

Also can you change the amanero chip to a xmos chip, without solder (as I am not skilled in that area), or is it better to use the gustard U16 to HDMI?


----------



## MartinWT

Thank you so much, @aggielaw that's a highly useful description of the LKS strengths and weaknesses.

In terms of what my system does now, with a highly modified superclocked/supercapped Caiman SEG DAC, the LKS would fit right in but give me more of the detail and soundstage I would like. It will also give me the I2S interface for my future plans. I find that DACs respond very well to placement, with Black Ravioli feet and a granite mat on top, and like clean regenerated power. I have those things in place already. The final thing that makes a difference, and is a somewhat divisive subject, is a grounding box. I have two SGS units and they bring out the soundstage, depth and quality of voice and piano very well. All of these tweaks help greatly with reduction of harshness, but I naturally like leading edge transients and an up-front presentation. I want to be in row C-E, not up in the Circle!

I think the LKS will be for me.


----------



## andrewinukm

Has anyone listened to the LKS MH-DA004 mini?

https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/l-k-s-audio-mh-da004mini-es9038pro-flagship-dac-audio-decoder.html


----------



## EDN80 (Jan 10, 2019)

Hi everyone-- On the lookout for a new DAC. I want to spend $1200-$1300 max for a new DAC and narrowed it down to the PS AUDIO STELLAR GAIN CELL DAC, the RME ADI-2 DAC, and this LKS AUDIO MH-DA-004, with a preference for the latter vs the RME. Reviews for the RME praise its versatility, but it seems that LKS got it beat soundwise, with many reviewers saying it punches way above its price-point, beyond YGGRASIL and even approaching DAVE!!! Which one should I to get for the money? Amir over at Audio Science Review seems to be recommending the RME, though the dual mono Sabre ESS SMSL D1 seems to be the best he's measured. Though he's not measured the LKS, could be close or on par.

_"Needless to say I can NOT recommend the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC for purchase. If you want a high-performance high-end DAC, my recommendations would be for RME ADI-2 DAC at less than half the price. And the Benchmark DAC3 at similar price. Both are made in the western world so no issue with "buying Chinese."

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...measurements-of-schiit-yggdrasil-v2-dac.3607/_


----------



## MartinWT

Measurements don't tell the whole story. You need to listen to them.


----------



## MartinWT

I have now placed my order for the LKS.  Many thanks to everyone contributing to this thread, it really helped my decision making.


----------



## EDN80 (Jan 11, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> Measurements don't tell the whole story. You need to listen to them.



True, though not likely to have access to the LKS, so relying on the hardware itself and those dual SABRE ES9038PROs and the reviews.



MartinWT said:


> I have now placed my order for the LKS.  Many thanks to everyone contributing to this thread, it really helped my decision making.



Looks like I'll pull the trigger too. Should've gone for the Oppo UDP-205 when it was $1299, though this'll do. Oppo's going out of business.


----------



## Quadman (Jan 13, 2019)

LKS 004 Won't connect to PC with USB

Hey, I Built a custom windows 10pro PC for a guy in Canada, AMD Ryzen 2700X, 16GB ram, Optane M2 OS SSD Gigabyte X470 Gaming 7 MB, windows 10pro, HQPlayer, Roon, Fidelizer pro 8.3.  After build I ran this PC in my system with a T+A Dac 8DSD using T+A drivers, upsampling to DSD512 I had zero issues connecting to and playing music with my T+A.  I also used the windows WASPI driver to connect via USB to a berkeley Alpha USB to AES or SPDIF converter again no issues connecting.  Before shipping the PC to him I removed the T+A drivers and installed directly from Amanero's website the Combo384 Win 10 driver.

Now he gets the PC and connects to LKS004 (brand new w upgraded USB board) and has issues getting PC and dac (USB connection) to see each other.  Occasionally the PC and Dac see each other then the connection drops (no music being played).  He has tried numerous USB cables and played with DPLL and none work except the LKS supplied cable briefly and only occasionally sees the PC but then the connection drops.  With his son's help they have removed the Amanero driver and installed the 64bit driver from MU-sounds web site, no luck there either, same results.  So they removed the LKS 64bit drivers and re-installed the Amanero Combo384 drivers.

I asked him to remove the cover of the LKS to check if the power connection to the USB board is solid, he has yet to do so.  He emailed Mu-sound but being the weekend has received no reply.  I am over 2000 miles away from him so I cannot physically assist.  Do any of you have any idea why the Dac is not seeing the PC and is unable to play music?  Thanks for any assistance.  Never had this issue with the Gustard I owned and those drivers required you to turn off windows driver signature to install.


----------



## Monolithic

Let me start by saying that I don't have a solution, but it may help to better understand the LKS setup. I'm using Windows 7 pro with Foobar - maybe someone with Windows 10 can chime in.

Technically, it is the PC seeing the Amanero board.  The LKS plays what the USB board sends out.  The Amanero board has firmware that can be changed but requires the Amanero board and its power supply to be removed from the LKS to perform a firmware change/reinstall (the top panel and rear panel of the LKS will need to be removed to get to the screws of the Amanero board and power supply). He might try reinstalling the Amanero board firmware.  Links to the procedure can be found in this thread.

Post 329 has the firmware procedure:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...es-double-impact.840938/page-22#post-13762204

Amanero generic firmware procedure & update tool:
https://www.amanero.com/howto.htm

Amanero firmware can be downloaded here:
https://amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm

Drivers:
https://amanero.com/drivers.htm


----------



## xiamen

Quadman said:


> LKS 004 Won't connect to PC with USB
> 
> Hey, I Built a custom windows 10pro PC for a guy in Canada, AMD Ryzen 2700X, 16GB ram, Optane M2 OS SSD Gigabyte X470 Gaming 7 MB, windows 10pro, HQPlayer, Roon, Fidelizer pro 8.3.  After build I ran this PC in my system with a T+A Dac 8DSD using T+A drivers, upsampling to DSD512 I had zero issues connecting to and playing music with my T+A.  I also used the windows WASPI driver to connect via USB to a berkeley Alpha USB to AES or SPDIF converter again no issues connecting.  Before shipping the PC to him I removed the T+A drivers and installed directly from Amanero's website the Combo384 Win 10 driver.
> 
> ...


If I remember correctly, you have to have the LKS004 connected via USB to PC to install the windows 10 driver correctly. That may be why your first attempt did not work. The correct driver is definitely from the Amanero website, the one specially say for Windows 10. After installing, you may have to disconnect the USB cable and then reconnect for the driver to be activated. If that doesn't work, you have to try reflash the LKS004 firmware. Unfortunately reflashing LKS firmware requires removing not just the cover but also the back panel.


----------



## Quadman

Thanks @Monolithic and @xiamen.  Based on what he sees in device manager it definitely appears to be a driver or dac USB card issue.  The dac is brand new he just got it right around Xmas, would hate for him to have to flash the firmware, fortunately he is an electrician by trade so that maybe in his skill set.  He has uninstalled and then re-installed the drivers several times, I would assume the dac was connected at least once but not sure so I will confirm with him and make sure he does so if he has not already.  That seems strange tho as I just updated a friends PC who has the gustard X20 and I reinstalled his singxer su-1 driver before sending back and he had no issue with PC and SU-1 seeing each other.

This guy did order the Gustard u16 and hopefully it arrives next week.  Does anyone here use the u16 with the LKS, if so any tips on getting that up and running correctly.


----------



## Monolithic (Jan 14, 2019)

There are several using the U16.  I run U16 firmware 1.4 with the LKS. Various HDMI cables.

See thread here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gustard-u16-the-first-usb-interface-featuring-ess-usb-chip.888947/

Gustard U16 Downloads:
https://download.shenzhenaudio.com/Gustard/


----------



## Quadman

Thanks @Monolithic have you by chance tried the newest 1.6 firmware?


----------



## Monolithic

Quadman said:


> Thanks @Monolithic have you by chance tried the newest 1.6 firmware?



I have not tried the newer firmware.


----------



## Whitigir

LKS004 is awesome DAC to have  I enjoy it immensely.  Totally high end worthy


----------



## MartinWT

Mine has arrived today. I hope to be able to get it up and running later tonight.


----------



## MartinWT

The LKS is up and running and sounds magnificent. It's definitely a detail-monster and the amount of ambient information and decay in, for example, cymbals is amazing. Dynamics are also first rate. However, it's not bright or harsh, it just presents the recording as-is. I'm running it on S/PDIF via BNC from Spotify and Qobuz hi-res streams. I2S will come later.

I'll write more when I've gathered my thoughts but first impressions are that this was exactly the DAC I wanted.


----------



## Paul Staples

OK, so I got the USB firmware reinstalled on the 004, and now the USB works and is recognised by my laptop using USB>USB connection. But I have a problem!
As soon as I switch to the microrendu 1.4 the LKS 004 USB switches to unlock, and stays that way even if I reboot everything!
The music is playing from my server on WLAN through the router and coming out the speakers on the laptop OK, but the amanero has disappeared from the sound selector?
Both LAN lights are on; on the rendu, but there is no communication to the 004 DAC?
Anyone have experience with this or knowledge/suggestions etc?
The rendu is using the MPD/DLNA app in the device "ACTIVE"!

Thanks in advance!


----------



## b0bb

Paul Staples said:


> OK, so I got the USB firmware reinstalled on the 004, and now the USB works and is recognised by my laptop using USB>USB connection. But I have a problem!
> As soon as I switch to the microrendu 1.4 the LKS 004 USB switches to unlock, and stays that way even if I reboot everything!
> The music is playing from my server on WLAN through the router and coming out the speakers on the laptop OK, but the amanero has disappeared from the sound selector?
> Both LAN lights are on; on the rendu, but there is no communication to the 004 DAC?
> ...



Microrendu is Linux based, check that the firmware you loaded on the Amanero is compatible.
Discussion on the various versions than work with Linux.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=151737.20

Alternatively contact Amanero directly


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> Microrendu is Linux based, check that the firmware you loaded on the Amanero is compatible.
> Discussion on the various versions than work with Linux.
> https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=151737.20
> 
> Alternatively contact Amanero directly



is the amanero compatible with what? (please)
Cheers!


----------



## b0bb (Jan 27, 2019)

Paul Staples said:


> is the amanero compatible with what? (please)
> Cheers!


Amanero has several versions of the firmware for the card, some versions have problems with the Linux operating system used by the rendu.

The post attached discusses some of that, either Amanero or Sonore (rendu manfacturer) may be able to give you more info on which are the relevant versions.

You previously re-loaded the firmware for your card on Windows to get it going, find out what version that was and use it as the starting point when talking to either Amanero or Sonore.


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> Amanero has several versions of the firmware for the card, some versions have problems with the Linux operating system used by the rendu.
> 
> The post attached discusses some of that, either Amanero or Sonore (rendu manfacturer) may be able to give you more info on which are the relevant versions.
> 
> You previously re-loaded the firmware for your card on Windows to get it going, find out what version that was and use it as the starting point when talking to either Amanero or Sonore.


OK cheers!
the firmware is: CPLD_for_1080    MCLK Pin6 output 22.5792 Mhz / 24.576 Mhz - Prescaler -    Firmware 1.096c3w2


----------



## Whitigir

Amanero just suck, period....lol


----------



## Forgisound

I have Sotm sms 200 ultra, Singxer u-1, LKS 004. Music is on Sinology NAS. Streamme via the Sqeezelite server. Why convert Squeeze DSD files to PCM352?

When I stream through Mpd / dln to Sotm and Sinology Media servers on NAS, then DSD works. But my overall sound over the Sqeezelite server is better.


----------



## MartinWT (Jan 31, 2019)

This is the review I have just published on my forum, hope it is of interest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------






The LKS is a large unit, very nicely built and finished in brushed aluminium.  There is no pressed steel here, it’s all milled panels.  It’s quite heavy too, at 7kg.  It features a large green informative display and buttons on the front panel.  There is also a milled remote in the same finish.

The key feature of this DAC, and the reason it has a small cult following, is that it employs the latest ESS Sabre 9038Pro chips in dual mono configuration.  Combined with this is a femto-clock with less than 82fs jitter and Nichicon, Mundorf and Wima capacitors inside.  There are Cardas and Furutech connectors on the rear.  It also has a fully discrete output stage, everything being laid out on a single circuit board.  The power supply is a dual linear separating digital and analogue sections, with 13 separate regulators.  The DAC chips have heatsinks on them and the unit runs warm to the touch.

There are several connectors on the back: inputs are co-ax, optical, BNC and AES S/PDIF, USB (at a choice of two different specifications), I2S-E (I2S over Ethernet) and I2S-H (I2S over HDMI).  Outputs are either single-ended phono or balanced XLR.  The volume can be fixed for use with a preamp or variable for direct connection to a power amp, the latter giving a 0 to -127dB range.  If USB input is important to you, there is an upgraded version available with an Amanero USB board.

Sample rates accepted are PCM 44k, 48k, 88k, 96k, 176k, 192k, 352k, 384k, 768k; DSD 64x, 128x, 256x, 512x, 1024x; DOP 64x, 128x, 256x.  There are also a total of 11 selectable filters including brickwall, linear phase, minimum phase, apodizing and hybrid.  The PLL bandwidth can be set for tighter clock capture and better sound quality, at a cost of not locking onto some signals, or loosened to accept poorer connection quality.  Finally, de-emphasis can be enabled for recordings made using it.

The display shows input, format &amp; sample rate, filter, PLL setting and volume.  These same functions are repeated on the excellent remote, for which you will need a CR-2032 battery.  The DAC has been on the market for almost two years and revisions have been made to the cooling and some component choices.  The small Chinese company listens to feedback from users and has incorporate some changes as required.  It’s a mature product with a small cult following, although virtually unknown in the West.

*Listening configuration
*
There are many possible settings, so I’ve settled on the SLOW-M Minimum Phase filter, the same as was used in my Ayre player, as a starting point.  I’ve also set the PLL bandwidth to 2 as I don’t get any lock problems.  Input for testing was BNC S/PDIF from the Allo DigiOne via a Black Cat Silverstar 75 cable.  I intend to move to I2S at some point but I can’t use that input just yet.

The LKS is powered from my PS Audio P10 regenerator via a Coherent 6D power cable.  It runs warm to the touch and I have given it over 100 hours of burn-in.  I replaced the rear panel fuse in the IEC inlet with a Synergistic Research SR Red fuse. I also have an SGS grounding box connected to the unused co-ax socket ground. After a short experiment with driving my power amp directly from the LKS using its volume control, I decided the balance was too bright and light in the bass.  I therefore conducted all my listening with the LKS connected to my Pass XP-20 preamp.   I also tried single-ended and balanced connection to the preamp and preferred the latter using Yannis 223.5 ConnectLitz XLR cables.

Data lock occurs within half a beat which is fine for most music. I found the occasional stream missing the first note in the music as it acquired lock. It’s possible that further adjustment of the PLL bandwidth will help it lock faster, but I left it set to 2.  Sources were Qobuz Studio, Spotify HQ and some local hi-res files.

The rest of my system is a Belles SA-100 power amplifier and Usher Dancer Be-20 speakers.
*
Sound impressions
*
Overall, the LKS throws an enormous amount of detail onto the soundstage, revealing just how much was laid down in the original recording. Furthermore, it can create very large dynamic swings and features attack with startling leading edge detail. It's a ‘big' and ‘fast’ sounding DAC with a rhythmic flow and sense of ‘boogie’ that makes you want to just keep listening. The soundstage is wide and deep and can occasionally be uncanny: I have turned my head thinking that someone is in the room with me more than once. Frequencies from top to bottom are naturally balanced. If there is deep bass it certainly reproduces it, but it doesn't sound bass heavy unless that's the nature of the music. The sheer amount of attack can make it sound bright on some material, but I don't think it’s balanced that way, the edge detail just fools the brain.  Listening at around 88dB peak through my speakers, there is no fatigue over several hours, a good sign that there are no nasties in the playback chain.

*Musical Notes
*
Robert Plant - The Principle of Moments - Big Log & Thru' With the Two Step: stark studio sound, extreme clarity into a distinctive acoustic.  Dire Straits - On Every Street - You and Your Friend: the opening feint drum roll loading up the room, overall ambience, striking dynamics.  Dire Straits - Communique - Where Do You Think You're Going: clarity, power of drumming.  Paul Simon - One Trick Pony - Late in the Evening: astonishing clarity and detail in the percussion, almost overshadowing his vocals.  Bill Callahan - Apocalypse – Drover: huge depth, Callahan mouthing ‘tse tse’ rather like cymbals.  The Mountain Goats - The Life of the World to Come - 1 Samuel: beautiful cymbal decay, percussion, guitar body being tapped.  John Patitucci - Remembrance - Messaien's Gumbo: fantastic percussion texture and shape, knockout dynamics.  Dave Brubeck - Time Out - Blue Rondo a la Turk: very natural percussive piano, nice soundstage.  Jewel - Spirit – Barcelona: the wah keyboard (?) in the opening and her fantastically held crescendos.  Juliette Commagere - Queens Die Proudly - The Big Middle: hushed whispering in the opening.  Paul Simon - Graceland – Homeless: palpable studio, infra-bass air movements.

Respighi – Belkis Queen of Sheba – Oue, Minnesota: expansive orchestra, lovely distant percussion reaching a tremendous peak later in the piece.  Respighi – Pines of Rome – Lane, Atlanta: the superb organ in this Telarc recording rumbles with incredible impact during the Catacomb section.  Glass – Koyaanisqatsi – Prophecies: wonderful massed voices stage left, each voice easily distinguishable, basses singing at the end.  Wagner – Gotterdammerung – Solti, VPO: staggering brass section climaxes in this amazing old Decca recording.  Shostakovich – Symphony No. 10 – Jarvi, SNO: massively dynamic rendering of Shostakovich's contempt for Stalin.  Durufle – Requiem – Malmberg, SRC: the layered choir and organ in this BIS recording make for an achingly gorgeous rendition of this work.  Vivaldi – The Four Seasons – Drottningholm, Sparf: another favourite BIS recording of mine and it passes the test, sounding stupendous with ultra-vivid lead violin, explosive dynamics and deep continuo organ.

*Conclusions
*
A comprehensively equipped DAC for those with a highly resolving system.  Very dynamic and highly detailed, it will match those who prefer an upfront presentation and will best suit a neutrally balanced system.  Because of the edge detail and attack, it’s likely to sound too bright in an already harsh or brightly lit system.  This is the first DAC with Sabre chips that I have found to be natural sounding, yet it retains their known ability in the resolution department.

The only real difficulty you will have is no ability to get a demonstration anywhere, unless you know someone who owns one (!)  I did my research and took a punt and it paid off.  I bought it through Amazon so as to get some buyer protection.  It arrived surprisingly quickly from Shenzhen in China and was exceptionally well packed.

Most importantly, and the reason it’ll be staying in my system, is that the LKS delivers remarkable levels of musical insight.  Some recordings are so vivid that you will hear everything the engineer intended, and perhaps some unintentional things, too!  Some live recordings, both rock and classical, will pin you there in the event with an unforgettable musical experience.  That, ultimately, is what hi-fi is all about.


----------



## jazzk

Well written review that absolutely mirrors my impression of this very value priced dac. Based on the limited but positive feedback I also jumped on this dac. So glad I did, my hd800 feed by my gustard h20 are mind bending in a great way. Having owned a oppo ha1 a North Star 192 a antelope zodiac plus and now a holo kte it is my favorite headphone dac. The spring won out for the big living room rig.


----------



## Whitigir (Jan 30, 2019)

Wait until u can modify/upgradre the main clock



But yes, lks004 is punching ways beyond it price range, waysssss beyond


----------



## jazzk

Whitigir. How hard is it to change clock, I am not afraid to take off cover and change a opp amp (plug aand play). But would be very hesitant to take my soldering iron to a PCb. I do not have your level of skill.


----------



## Whitigir

It requires some hot air soldering .


----------



## MartinWT

I read somewhere (may be Ric's site) that if I'm not using the USB interface (I have the standard one, not Amanero) it's best to remove the board.  Can anyone confirm whether it's worth doing?  I have no need for USB.


----------



## Whitigir

MartinWT said:


> I read somewhere (may be Ric's site) that if I'm not using the USB interface (I have the standard one, not Amanero) it's best to remove the board.  Can anyone confirm whether it's worth doing?  I have no need for USB.


Hmm ? I don’t know what your question is


----------



## MartinWT

From Ric's site "If you are not using the usb input then it will sound better if you either disconnect the power supply from the more expensive board or remove the board all together if you have the cheaper usb board."


----------



## jazzk

Thanks whitigir but that is way above my pay grade!  I will just have to make do with as is which is incredible!!!  I do run the usb from laptop thru a iso regen which did make a positive impact. I have a singxer 1 but have not tried to put in chain as due to my cave man level computer skills. When u start talking drivers and computer gooblygook I’m instantly confused.  It took me  while to get my laptop to talk to lks but finally after 100 What’s I got it and am very happy with sound. I envy ur computer and electronic skills


----------



## MartinWT

How much better is a replacement clock over the 82fs jitter of the stock one?


----------



## littlexx26

MartinWT said:


> panel fuse in the IEC inlet



what is the spec of the fuse? i want to change too


----------



## littlexx26 (Feb 1, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> How much better is a replacement clock over the 82fs jitter of the stock one?



far less than changing to quality interconnect and power cord. I have replaced the original crystek 575 to 575x. the difference is minimal.
some people criticize its light in bass, my lks004 has never been light. its full and rich. if anyone feels light, you better change your cables.


----------



## xiamen

MartinWT said:


> I read somewhere (may be Ric's site) that if I'm not using the USB interface (I have the standard one, not Amanero) it's best to remove the board.  Can anyone confirm whether it's worth doing?  I have no need for USB.


I just disconnect the power supply leads to the Amanero (BTW, the standard USB is Amanero, the upgraded one just upgrade the clocks on the Amanero). Can't say I can hear the difference, very subtle if any (difficult with no A-B testing). Theoretically, it removes electrical interference noises from the USB. So at least it makes you feel better. To remove the board, you need to take off not just the cover but also the back panel. You may end up wanting to have to do it sometime, so worth working out how to do that.


----------



## MartinWT

littlexx26 said:


> what is the spec of the fuse? i want to change too


20mm SR Red 3.15A.


----------



## MartinWT

littlexx26 said:


> far less than changing to quality interconnect and power cord.


Yes, agreed.  Good power cord, running from a regenerator, makes a big difference.  So was changing from single-ended to balanced cables, good ones.


----------



## MartinWT

xiamen said:


> I just disconnect the power supply leads to the Amanero


Thanks, I'll do that.


----------



## RLugo

Dear All

I have a practically new MH-DA004 with USB AMANERO UPGRADE for sale .

If someone is interested please let me know .

Many Thanks .

-Marin Rene.


----------



## sanvara (Feb 6, 2019)

Whitigir said:


> Pangea HDMI is recommended



Which one is recommended? Audio Advisor sells two:

1. Premier $29 for .6 meter - OFC Copper
2. Premier SE $60 for .6 meter  - 6% silver plate Cardas Copper
Also:
3. Audioquest Chocolate  $99 for .6 meter - 2.5% silver plate

Is here an audible difference between #1 and #2? Specs on #3 seem worse than #2 with less silver at higher price. But I see people posting they are very happy with the Chocolate. Other people say there is no audible difference between cables if they are well constructed .

So should I just buy any well constructed .6 meter HDMI cable like the $29 Pangea and be done with it and not pay attention to silver content?


----------



## Whitigir (Feb 5, 2019)

I would pick #2 all day long .  Can’t go wrong with Pangea construction, silverplating and Cardas copper


----------



## Xoverman

Dear Forum Members, 
for 2 years I am now a LKS 004 owner. I was overwhelmed by the sound quality. And I still am.  I am also a DIY Speaker builder. So as my speakers got better and better,
I thought maybe I could improve something else in the Chain. So first I added a ifi iUSB micro witch made a huge improvement in soundstage focusing!  

Then after searching for 004 tweaks I ran across this forum. So I read this forum and the 003 forum twice. Very interesting, so I tried some of the tweaks that where published here.

Here are my findings :

-              I do have a USB upgrade board installed in the 004. The default PS is with OP177 and LED.         First I measured the output voltage and was very surprised, it is 4V NOT 5V.
Well anyway, tock the LT3042 PS I ordered in China and replaced the OP177 board with it.
Hocked everything up and listened to my reference music. It was disappointing.
Sound was lacking Bass and upper Bass. But resolution was better. I remembered that someone in the forum wrote that the 004 is very sensitive to HF. I decided to shield the AC cable that supply’s the LT3042 PW Board, and added some Tantal Capacitors to the Clock Board. Thigs got better but still poor Bass performanceL.
I ended up switching back to the OP177 PS Board.  ( What did I miss ?? )

-              Sense I am a Design Engineer for electronics, and I used to develop high resolution ADC’s,
I know that vibration is a big problem with ultra-high accuracy circuits. So I decided to install a dampened Sandwich bottom to the 004 DAC. All femto clock and ultra-low noise Application notes mention that Seismic vibration is one of the biggest problems in measuring the specs of these circuits.

Wow what a difference. Big soundstage, very clear. Very stable imaging.
BUT: much too much high’s. Too much high frequency energy L  ( What am I doing wrong ?? )

I now ordered a Singxer SU 1 to find out where the problem is.


----------



## littlexx26 (Feb 8, 2019)

Xoverman said:


> Dear Forum Members,
> for 2 years I am now a LKS 004 owner. I was overwhelmed by the sound quality. And I still am.  I am also a DIY Speaker builder. So as my speakers got better and better,
> I thought maybe I could improve something else in the Chain. So first I added a ifi iUSB micro witch made a huge improvement in soundstage focusing!
> 
> ...



since you have ifi micro iusb. i suggest you to do this way i am doing.
order the standalone upgrade usb board. it comes without the power board. install it to lks004. it will get the power from usb port. buy uptone lps1.2 to power the ifi micro iusb which then power the usb board. you will get a super clean power supply for the usb board.
by this way, it sounds the best. i never have "lacking bass" which reported by the experts here. the bass is punchy, deep, full of power


----------



## Xoverman

Thanks for the fast answer. That’s a really good test ! 
But I think I can use my USB Board. I just have to solder 2 bridges or inductors in right side beside the USB socket. That’s a great idea. Thank you !


----------



## Xoverman

Dose anybody in this Forum have a schematic of the 004 ?


----------



## b0bb (Feb 9, 2019)

Xoverman said:


> Dear Forum Members,
> for 2 years I am now a LKS 004 owner. I was overwhelmed by the sound quality. And I still am.  I am also a DIY Speaker builder. So as my speakers got better and better,
> I thought maybe I could improve something else in the Chain. So first I added a ifi iUSB micro witch made a huge improvement in soundstage focusing!
> 
> ...



The stock 004's high strung characteristic (poor bass but exceptional imaging) is partly due to the CCHD575 master clock, I have both the 003 and 004 and they both suffer this limitation.

My fix is to replace it with something better like the Crystek CCHD950X or Abracon ABLNO. ABLNO is more aggressive presentation, Both are stocked by the likes of Mouser for less than 50USD.

If you want to go further consider the OCXOs like the Abracon series @Whitigir is using. I use the Pulsar but that is very hard to get these days. Depending on the revision of the 004 you may need to change the regulator as the OCXOs take up to 1A on start up with an average of 300mA when operation. The 950X run around 50mA in contrast.

Consider also thermally coupling both halves of output stage on the I/V converter, these are the TO-126 transistors. They are emitter followers and the thermal tracking keeps helps stabilize the current gain as it warms up. Audio wise it sweetens the midrange and takes the edge off the sound.
(LKS is inconsistent here, some revisions have it heatsinked to the case, the newer revs seem to have removed the heat sinks again).

I use the SU-1 and it will not help your current situation without doing some of the work described above. You will see similar issues to the USB regulator board swap.
SU-1 tends to make the top end even more prominent,  this is not desirable in the your case.


----------



## gruvytune

Is the CCHD950X a direct plugin?


----------



## Whitigir

Yeah, definitely upgrade your main clock as the lks004 hugely benefit from it , the 950X is drop in, but some soldering works needed


----------



## b0bb

gruvytune said:


> Is the CCHD950X a direct plugin?


Yes, as @Whitigir mentioned, remove the 575 and solder in the 950X


----------



## rettib2001

b0bb said:


> Yes, as @Whitigir mentioned, remove the 575 and solder in the 950X



Is it best (or more importantly easier) to mount the 950x onto an adapter or can it simply be soldered directly?

I'm interested in your suggestion of 'thermally coupling both halves of output stage on the I/V converter.' 

Is this a procedure you've explained in a previous post, if so I'll try and track it down? 

If not, what exactly does it entail? 

Cheers.


----------



## b0bb (Feb 9, 2019)

rettib2001 said:


> Is it best (or more importantly easier) to mount the 950x onto an adapter or can it simply be soldered directly?
> 
> I'm interested in your suggestion of 'thermally coupling both halves of output stage on the I/V converter.'
> 
> ...


Solder it directly unless you want to experiment with different XOs.

Put the 2 halves of the output stage on the same heatsink, not necessary if your DAC has transistors mounted on a heatsink.
Take care to insulate the bare metal backs of the transistors from each other and the heatsink.


----------



## Xoverman

Wow, great answer b0bb. Thanks  !
I have the version with the heatsink One the back oft the PCB. I mad an experimt.  Sens the heatsink is not scrude to the schassi I isolated it from the shassis with kapton Type. The result was a litle los in soundstage resolution. I think this is a result of capacitiv coppling of the transistors.
So very important !!! The heatsink hast to be groundet

So you know the 950x sounds better then the 575. Even if it has mor jitter.
Du you have a schematic?


----------



## Xoverman

I contacted Mauro from Pulsar Clocks,  unfortunately he realy dosent have any more 100Mhz Clocks. I am out of luck ther .
Dos anybody in the forum have one on sale?


----------



## gruvytune

gruvytune said:


> Is the CCHD950X a direct plugin?


Is this the one?

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...HD-950X-25-100000?qs=L4klnTtkofObrfUJUtC8ig==


----------



## piaseczek

That is interesting:
https://www.sitime.com/products/stratum-3e-ocxo/sit5712

Maybe it wil be suitable for the 004?


----------



## Quadman

This OCXO works real well, but as b0bb said you have to check the regulators nearby to make sure they can handle 1A, as these use a lot of current on start up. b0bb and I made an insulating boot to go over the OCXO to keep it more thermally stable and lower steady state current draw.  The clock worked wonders in my gustard X20u.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...=sGAEpiMZZMsC2cQJVRBSBUVTnCXPHX6IDcln7PotGtA=


----------



## b0bb

gruvytune said:


> Is this the one?
> 
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Crystek-Corporation/CCHD-950X-25-100000?qs=L4klnTtkofObrfUJUtC8ig==


Yes


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> That is interesting:
> https://www.sitime.com/products/stratum-3e-ocxo/sit5712
> 
> Maybe it wil be suitable for the 004?


Need to see datasheet


----------



## piaseczek

It will be available in Q2 2019.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> So you know the 950x sounds better then the 575. Even if it has mor jitter.
> Du you have a schematic?



I have the 950X, currently in the LKS003

The jitter figures need to be re-calculated for the audio range (10Hz-10kHz) like below, the difference is much smaller

Abracon              ABLNO            fc= 100.00MHz BW=(10.00Hz-10.00kHz) RMS Jitter: 200.923fs
Crystek              CCHD-575         fc= 100.00MHz BW=(10.00Hz-10.00kHz) RMS Jitter: 151.769fs
Crystek              CCHD-950         fc= 100.00MHz BW=(10.00Hz-10.00kHz) RMS Jitter: 226.627fs
Accusilicon          AS318-B          fc= 100.00MHz BW=(10.00Hz-10.00kHz) RMS Jitter: 200.494fs

The other problem is the 575 is a 50ppm part vs 25ppm for the 950, in practice the 575 is more sensitive to temp.
The ESS DACs seem to like the 950X more with less of the issues you described previously.

There is no schematic, the 004 uses a virtual earth opamp with the feedback resistor acting as the I/V conversion element, this is the same method LKS used on the 003 except the opamp is discrete.
Take a look at the 003 page where there are partial schematics.


----------



## Xoverman

this may be a stupid question but what is more important, Phase Noise or Jitter?


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> this may be a stupid question but what is more important, Phase Noise or Jitter?


Same thing, Jitter as quoted on the datasheets is the RMS Phase noise over the specified integration bandwidth, aka a fancy average of the phase noise in the audio band.


----------



## Xoverman

Ohhh , thanks b0bb


----------



## Xoverman

So is the 575 to precise for the 004?


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> So is the 575 to precise for the 004?


It is marginally less phase noise on paper if you keep the temp constant but a 1ºC shift in temp puts additional noise in the 5kHz band on the 50ppm 575, this is right in the middle of the midrange audio band.

If you wonder why the 004 can sound hyperactive at times, this in one reason.

What Crystek does not publish is the magnitude the disturbance, if it were very small it would be in the datasheet


----------



## rettib2001

b0bb said:


> Solder it directly unless you want to experiment with different XOs.
> 
> Put the 2 halves of the output stage on the same heatsink, not necessary if your DAC has transistors mounted on a heatsink.
> Take care to insulate the bare metal backs of the transistors from each other and the heatsink.



Thanks for the quick reply that's exactly what I was looking for!


----------



## rettib2001

For those of us with the more recent regulator is there a simple way of replacing it with the more powerful one found on earlier examples of the 004, or do other components need to be replaced as a result?


----------



## piaseczek (Feb 10, 2019)

b0bb said:


> It is marginally less phase noise on paper if you keep the temp constant but a 1ºC shift in temp puts additional noise in the 5kHz band on the 50ppm 575, this is right in the middle of the midrange audio band.
> 
> If you wonder why the 004 can sound hyperactive at times, this in one reason.
> 
> What Crystek does not publish is the magnitude the disturbance, if it were very small it would be in the datasheet



b0bb,
do you think that the magnitude of the disturbance is lower on the 950X than on the 575X?
Have you tried the 575X in one of your DACs?


----------



## MartinWT

These comments about 'poor bass' I just don't get. The bass is very tight and goes way deep.

For instance, the huge air movements in the sub-bass at the start of Sting's A Thousand Years gets my big Ushers loading up the room big time. Likewise some of my favourite organ music. Proper trouser flapping stuff.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> do you think that the magnitude of the disturbance is lower on the 950X than on the 575X?
> Have you tried the 575X in one of your DACs?


Yes, I have the 575X .

The 575X is marginal to no improvement


----------



## b0bb

rettib2001 said:


> For those of us with the more recent regulator is there a simple way of replacing it with the more powerful one found on earlier examples of the 004, or do other components need to be replaced as a result?


The existing regulator has to be removed, a better approach is to have the XO and regulator on 1 board and run a very short coax cable to the clock input.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> It is marginally less phase noise on paper if you keep the temp constant but a 1ºC shift in temp puts additional noise in the 5kHz band on the 50ppm 575, this is right in the middle of the midrange audio band.
> 
> If you wonder why the 004 can sound hyperactive at times, this in one reason.
> 
> What Crystek does not publish is the magnitude the disturbance, if it were very small it would be in the datasheet


OK, I will order a 950x tomorrow, and report on my findings.


----------



## littlexx26 (Feb 10, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> These comments about 'poor bass' I just don't get. The bass is very tight and goes way deep.
> 
> For instance, the huge air movements in the sub-bass at the start of Sting's A Thousand Years gets my big Ushers loading up the room big time. Likewise some of my favourite organ music. Proper trouser flapping stuff.


yes same here. i have tried keeping it on and playing my lks004 for more than a week, 24hrs a day, it always sounds the same, deep, punchy and powerful bass. i have no idea why some saying its bass is bad. it sounds differently only when i switching different usb cables. power cables and xrl cables.


----------



## Paul Staples

littlexx26 said:


> yes same here. i have tried keeping it on and playing my lks004 for more than a week, 24hrs a day, it always sounds the same, deep, punchy and powerful bass. i have no idea why some saying its bass is bad. it sounds differently only when i switching different usb cables. power cables and xrl cables.



Yes same here too!


----------



## mandrake50

b0bb said:


> It is marginally less phase noise on paper if you keep the temp constant but a 1ºC shift in temp puts additional noise in the 5kHz band on the 50ppm 575, this is right in the middle of the midrange audio band.
> 
> If you wonder why the 004 can sound hyperactive at times, this in one reason.
> 
> What Crystek does not publish is the magnitude the disturbance, if it were very small it would be in the datasheet



Can you say what level of noise can result. Or perhaps the magnitude of the difference. I will be getting an 004 soon and am curious to se if I should worry about mods immediately.


----------



## b0bb

mandrake50 said:


> Can you say what level of noise can result. Or perhaps the magnitude of the difference. I will be getting an 004 soon and am curious to se if I should worry about mods immediately.



I would not worry about it on a brand new DAC, it takes a couple of months to truly settle in, I have had my 004 just under 2years.
The XO fix should only be considered if you can hear the limitations like @Xoverman, on the flip side there are other owners here that are oblivious to the issue.

Revisit this after you have used the DAC for some time.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> OK, I will order a 950x tomorrow, and report on my findings.



You mentioned that you have had the DAC over 2 years, consider changing out the 8 powersupply bypass caps around the I/V converter 
These are either Nichicon FG or MUSE, rated at 1000hours @85ºC, replace those with Panasonic FM at the same capacitance  value and operating voltage. FMs are 105ºC 5000hour caps.

Other alternatives are the Nichicon FPCap or the Nichicon KA if you want the FG or MUSE type sound. KAs have  2000hour lifetime at 105ºC


----------



## Lennym

When this DAC was released there was very little talk about mods, except to relieve the overheating issue.  Anyone can go back and look.  There being all this talk now about mods to this DAC, makes me wonder when the factory will release the MH-DA005.  Does anyone know what the historical release schedule of new models has been?  Anyone in touch with Jinbo on the subject?


----------



## mandrake50 (Feb 11, 2019)

b0bb said:


> I would not worry about it on a brand new DAC, it takes a couple of months to truly settle in, I have had my 004 just under 2years.
> The XO fix should only be considered if you can hear the limitations like @Xoverman, on the flip side there are other owners here that are oblivious to the issue.
> 
> Revisit this after you have used the DAC for some time.



Thanks for that. I saw you mentioned artifacts or added distortion right around 5000 Hz. I tend to be a bit sensitive in that area. I then wondered if this had been measured somewhere so I could get a sense of the magnitude of distortion and the amount of reduction using a "better" clock.
I think I will take your advice and just listen for a bit. But I would like to understand, from the standpoint of measurements, the amount of potential improvement that could be made were I to venture into modding the unit down the road.


----------



## Whitigir

Lennym said:


> When this DAC was released there was very little talk about mods, except to relieve the overheating issue.  Anyone can go back and look.  There being all this talk now about mods to this DAC, makes me wonder when the factory will release the MH-DA005.  Does anyone know what the historical release schedule of new models has been?  Anyone in touch with Jinbo on the subject?



Modding doesn’t necessarily mean new DAC is coming out.  It is simply that we want to squeeze more performances out of it.  People did not adopt into lks004 right the moment it was released, and more hyped with Yggy and other stuff.  @b0bb was one of the very first to modify the unit, and not many people followed.  I upgraded my clock as of late due to curiosity between systems and so on.

There is newer AKM chip, and that is AK4499EQ.  This chip is about the same specifications as ES9038Pro.  So the ES9038Pro is still top on the market.  What is the point of releasing newer unit ?  I mean even at this moment, people can not extract all feature out of lks004 yet

Have anyone been using IIS input with DSD1024 on LKS004 yet ?


----------



## MartinWT

For isolation of the sensitive Crystek clock, my LKS is on 4 Black Ravioli Big Pads on an Electric Beach S1NX shelf, itself on RDC Cones, on my system rack which is also on RDC Cones on a tiled floor.

Regarding IIS connection, I'll be doing that as soon as an HDMI board arrives for my streamer. Meanwhile, I'm using the BNC input which sounds very good.


----------



## Xoverman

littlexx26 said:


> yes same here. i have tried keeping it on and playing my lks004 for more than a week, 24hrs a day, it always sounds the same, deep, punchy and powerful bass. i have no idea why some saying its bass is bad. it sounds differently only when i switching different usb cables. power cables and xrl cables.


OK forum, the reason why I tri to mod the 004 is not because it's a bad DAC.
No, it's really brilliant! Especially for the money ! Soundstage,  tonality and dynamics....  wonderful !!!
But :     as a design engineer for electronics I also know that a manufacturer has to hit a price point .
An in automatic PCB assembly you have a lot of restrictions how and where to place components. 
Also components that the designer would like to have are not always available .

And........ I just like to play around with electronics 
So when I started messing around with the amanero board I knotest that the sound changes dramatically when I change something. 
That's all.  It's a hobby.  Nothing to get upset about. 
It's like a very kompex pussel . Find out where lks had to save money, or ran out of time to market. 

So, if you have a very, very reveling system it's easy to hear the difference while you experiment. 
And sometimes you achieve a step forward, but most of the time it's too steps backwards. 
But with members like b0bb thing get a little easier.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> You mentioned that you have had the DAC over 2 years, consider changing out the 8 powersupply bypass caps around the I/V converter
> These are either Nichicon FG or MUSE, rated at 1000hours @85ºC, replace those with Panasonic FM at the same capacitance  value and operating voltage. FMs are 105ºC 5000hour caps.
> 
> Other alternatives are the Nichicon FPCap or the Nichicon KA if you want the FG or MUSE type sound. KAs have  2000hour lifetime at 105ºC


How does the sound differ . Can you please describe the the differences a little bit more in detail.


----------



## Xoverman

MartinWT said:


> For isolation of the sensitive Crystek clock, my LKS is on 4 Black Ravioli Big Pads on an Electric Beach S1NX shelf, itself on RDC Cones, on my system rack which is also on RDC Cones on a tiled floor.
> 
> Regarding IIS connection, I'll be doing that as soon as an HDMI board arrives for my streamer. Meanwhile, I'm using the BNC input which sounds very good.


You are doing it exactly right . You allways have to stack up different resonance frequencys.  Than you get silence . That's the whole trick.
You can check the vibration with a seismic app on your iPad.
Cheers


----------



## MartinWT

Xoverman said:


> You can check the vibration with a seismic app on your iPad.


Yes, I do that with a seismic app on my Android phone.  It's amazing what you can learn about isolation by placing it on different surfaces while playing music.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> How does the sound differ . Can you please describe the the differences a little bit more in detail.


The original Nichicon FG or MUSE mellows out the sound when used in powersupply bypass. The KA is a high temp version of this cap.
That was useful in taming the extended top end of the CCHD575, once this is changed over to the CCHD950 it is no longer necessary.

Panasonic FM is a neutral cap that contributes very little of its own sonic signature, it is very long life cap that can operate at extended temps.

Nichicon FPCap is another candidate @Whitigir used it.


----------



## Lodwales81

Evening all, 
I was pondering over purchasing this dac for a while but in the went with a chord qutest as I live in the UK and its a British made unit with a good warranty. I still keep an eye on this forums and just wondering if anbody had compared the Lks to the qutest or Hugo 2.


----------



## littlexx26

Lodwales81 said:


> Evening all,
> I was pondering over purchasing this dac for a while but in the went with a chord qutest as I live in the UK and its a British made unit with a good warranty. I still keep an eye on this forums and just wondering if anbody had compared the Lks to the qutest or Hugo 2.


lks004 is supposed to compared to Dave


----------



## Paul Staples

littlexx26 said:


> lks004 is supposed to compared to Dave


+1


----------



## sanvara

littlexx26 said:


> lks004 is supposed to compared to Dave



But does it compare? Dave must be really overpriced if it does.


----------



## Paul Staples (Feb 20, 2019)

sanvara said:


> But does it compare? Dave must be really overpriced if it does.


you said it! 

Financially, you can't compare European costs to Chinese costs (labour charges etc.). If chord is made in UK, it will cost more because the overheads are more. So, something that is £10,000 in the UK would only cost a £1000 from China.


----------



## Lodwales81

Most comparisons between Dave and LKS that I have come across online,  have all stated that the Dave wins hands down.  I was just interested in a comparison between my chord qutest and the lks as they are priced the same. Also the introduction on the new chord m scaler is supposed to take the qutest to a whole new level (as well as my bank overdraft limit)


----------



## sanvara (Feb 20, 2019)

Lodwales81 said:


> Most comparisons between Dave and LKS that I have come across online,  have all stated that the Dave wins hands down.  I was just interested in a comparison between my chord qutest and the lks as they are priced the same. Also the introduction on the new chord m scaler is supposed to take the qutest to a whole new level (as well as my bank overdraft limit)



Qutest and M scaler is a $7k bundle though isn't it? That's obviously a whole different stratosphere in terms of price point. I probably got lucky but only paid $750 for a used DA004. Using it with ELAC Navis powered speakers and SU-1 and am happy with this combo for around $3k. I'm going to try a Gustard U16 in place of SU-1 and keep the one I like best. Was able to get the U16 on Ebay for $260.


----------



## Paul Staples

Lodwales81 said:


> Most comparisons between Dave and LKS that I have come across online,  have all stated that the Dave wins hands down.



Links/URL (proof) please.


----------



## Whitigir (Feb 20, 2019)

I heard the Dave and Empyrean from CanJam, and IMO, a good clock on lks-004 will run circle around it.  A lot of Hype and seems like people presently prejudiced any equipment with associated cost.

The mini-GSX is being looked down by many people, and I can tell you that it can run circle around many of the so called expensive high-end amplifier all day long.  Just because it is priced affordable, people prejudice it too much


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> I heard the Dave and Empyrean from CanJam, and IMO, a good clock on lks-004 will run circle around it.  A lot of Hype and seems like people presently prejudiced any equipment with associated cost.
> 
> The mini-GSX is being looked down by many people, and I can tell you that it can run circle around many of the so called expensive high-end amplifier all day long.  Just because it is priced affordable, people prejudice it too much


+1


----------



## MartinWT

Whitigir said:


> a good clock on lks-004 will run circle around it.


I've asked this before and got no answer.  What is it about the LKS' femtoclock that isn't good?


----------



## Whitigir (Feb 21, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> I've asked this before and got no answer.  What is it about the LKS' femtoclock that isn't good?


It is good, it is just that It* can be better.  Been there, done that, and heard the improvements myself


----------



## MartinWT

Whitigir said:


> It is good, it is just that It* can be better.  Been there, done that, and heard the improvements myself


Ok, thank you.


----------



## wersuss (Feb 21, 2019)

Whitigir said:


> It is good, it is just that It* can be better.  Been there, done that, and heard the improvements myself





MartinWT said:


> Ok, thank you.



Hello guys, so which oscillator to use to replace the stock CCHD 575 100mhz?


----------



## Paul Staples (Feb 23, 2019)

@Whitigir

hi,

I now have the singxer su-1, the psu is removed and I'm using an external LPSU with an IEC plug fitted on the end of it. This connects to the original IEC backplate then to the 2 pin header on the PCB. I just wondered if you knew the correct amperage for the fuse holder please?
Many Thanks!

PS:   ...the IEC backplate is now of course on the DC side!

....like this example


----------



## MartinWT

Please be very careful never to accidentally plug a standard power cable into that converted IEC inlet.


----------



## Whitigir

The best bet is to ask the people who modified the unit @Paul Staples


----------



## piaseczek

I have strangely high value of a resistance between a PE (protective earth) pin and a RCA shield. The value is about 1k Ohm, is it normal?


----------



## Paul Staples (Feb 24, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> Please be very careful never to accidentally plug a standard power cable into that converted IEC inlet.


no worries.....

 
...see input voltage warning. I could get this sticker made up.


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> The best bet is to ask the people who modified the unit @Paul Staples


thanks!

I did this because it was a real mess when I bought it! Big Bodge Up!!


----------



## Paul Staples

piaseczek said:


> I have strangely high value of a resistance between a PE (protective earth) pin and a RCA shield. The value is about 1k Ohm, is it normal?


...don't know?


----------



## piaseczek

B0bb,
Could you help please and measure the resistance value in your DAC?

Maybe in my case high value of the resistance is a result of a non isolated heat sink underneath a board, the transistors are not isolated from a chassis. Make sense?


----------



## piaseczek

Xoverman said:


> I have the version with the heatsink One the back oft the PCB. I mad an experimt.  Sens the heatsink is not scrude to the schassi I isolated it from the shassis with kapton Type. The result was a litle los in soundstage resolution. I think this is a result of capacitiv coppling of the transistors.
> So very important !!! The heatsink hast to be groundet



That is really interesting because in the first version of the 004 these transistors were not connected with the chassis...


----------



## piaseczek

Xoverman said:


> - Sense I am a Design Engineer for electronics, and I used to develop high resolution ADC’s,
> I know that vibration is a big problem with ultra-high accuracy circuits. So I decided to install a dampened Sandwich bottom to the 004 DAC. All femto clock and ultra-low noise Application notes mention that Seismic vibration is one of the biggest problems in measuring the specs of these circuits.



Could you show us a photo of your damped sandwich bottom? What materials have you used?


----------



## MartinWT

Please remind me which is the recommended straight swap crystal for better sound quality?

Also, what is the preferred I/V resistor swap?


----------



## piaseczek

Crystek 950x and Vishay naked foil.


----------



## MartinWT

Thanks. What is the value of Vishay resistor required?


----------



## Monolithic (Feb 24, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> Thanks. What is the value of Vishay resistor required?



It’s dependent on which board version you have.  It’s best to remove the board and inspect first.  Resistors are on the bottom of the board.  

I would also determine the IV peak current as b0bb has outlined in this thread before removing the board.

See post #1743
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...s-double-impact.840938/page-117#post-14689266


----------



## wersuss (Feb 24, 2019)

piaseczek said:


> Crystek 950x and Vishay naked foil.


The 950X , should it be same as stock 100mhz or mhz of oscillator doesn't matter?
The one i found on ebay is 122.88 mhz. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-CVHD-...h=item3d7383d75c:g:U6QAAOSwQZVcG4sf:rk:1:pf:0


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> Could you help please and measure the resistance value in your DAC?
> 
> Maybe in my case high value of the resistance is a result of a non isolated heat sink underneath a board, the transistors are not isolated from a chassis. Make sense?



Signal ground on the rca connectors and chassis ground on the power inlet not connected on my Gen1 DAC


----------



## b0bb (Feb 24, 2019)

wersuss said:


> The 950X , should it be same as stock 100mhz or mhz of oscillator doesn't matter?
> The one i found on ebay is 122.88 mhz.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-CVHD-...h=item3d7383d75c:g:U6QAAOSwQZVcG4sf:rk:1:pf:0


Stick to the 100Mhz, there are internal frequency pre-scaler registers on the DAC that have to re-adjusted if you change the master clock frequency
VCXOs have a voltage input that can change the output frequency, you will have to do extra work to negate any noise pickup on the VCXO input to prevent the oscillator output from drifting.


----------



## b0bb

Paul Staples said:


> @Whitigir
> 
> PS:   ...the IEC backplate is now of course on the DC side!
> 
> ....like this example



Replace the IEC inlet backplate, several vendors sell them of the SU-1
https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/dc99.html


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Signal ground on the rca connectors and chassis ground on the power inlet not connected on my Gen1 DAC



Thank you b0bb. Do you think that something wrong might be with my DAC?

Additionally I have a ground loop when I connect with RCAs the 004 DAC to my power amplifier and that makes me wonder if everything is ok.
Both devices are equipped with the PEs. There is no problem with the ground loop when I use XLRs.


----------



## piaseczek

MartinWT said:


> Thanks. What is the value of Vishay resistor required?


 
In my DAC (the second iteration with the heat sink) the value of the IV resistors are the same as on b0bb's one. 
I think that everything above 0.5 is fine. Foil resistors in the IV make a big improvement in sound.


----------



## piaseczek

0.5W...


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> 0.5W...




Double that, you must increase that number as there is no active airflow in the case, this is called thermal de-rating.
Use a 1W rated resistor


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> Replace the IEC inlet backplate, several vendors sell them of the SU-1
> https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/dc99.html


thanks!


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Double that, you must increase that number as there is no active airflow in the case, this is called thermal de-rating.
> Use a 1W rated resistor



The original one was with a rated power of 0.5W, but I believe you that a 1W would be a better choice


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> Double that, you must increase that number as there is no active airflow in the case, this is called thermal de-rating.
> Use a 1W rated resistor





piaseczek said:


> The original one was with a rated power of 0.5W, but I believe you that a 1W would be a better choice



Which part for vishay foil resistor?


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Which part for vishay foil resistor?



TX2575-2 68.1 ohm on a Gen1.
If you have a Gen 2 (the one with the low powered XO regulator) it is 62ohms

This is a 2 module resistor that can dissipate up to 0.8W with no air flow and 1.2W with some air flow.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...s-double-impact.840938/page-117#post-14689266

Double check your unit to determine the exact one.

These are made to order by Texas Components.

This the best grade Z-foil with a non inductive  layout


----------



## odessamarin

Lodwales81 said:


> Evening all,
> I was pondering over purchasing this dac for a while but in the went with a chord qutest as I live in the UK and its a British made unit with a good warranty. I still keep an eye on this forums and just wondering if anbody had compared the Lks to the qutest or Hugo 2.



Hey there, I had both.. both sold. Going to buy MH-DA004 this days.. (hopefully)
If you ask me why.. bad sounsdtage, just too flat in compare to HugoTT or even Classic Hugo. 
Balanced HugoTT is really way to go if you like Chord (like me...)
So curious to try this MH-DA004.

Could somebody explain me simply what is differance with USB upgrasded version?
What it has as normal version?
thx


----------



## MartinWT

I have just changed to using my LKS with I2S input (IIS-H).  The sound quality is startlingly good and better than S/PDIF.

There is a small problem I would like to fix: when BNC goes into unlock at the end of the music, it mutes very graciously.  With I2S, there is a loud pop when it goes into unlock and it puts a little DC into the preamp (the volume control clicks).  There is no problem once the clock is received and it plays music.  Is there a way to get it to mute as nicely as with the BNC and co-ax inputs?


----------



## xiamen

MartinWT said:


> I have just changed to using my LKS with I2S input (IIS-H).  The sound quality is startlingly good and better than S/PDIF.
> 
> There is a small problem I would like to fix: when BNC goes into unlock at the end of the music, it mutes very graciously.  With I2S, there is a loud pop when it goes into unlock and it puts a little DC into the preamp (the volume control clicks).  There is no problem once the clock is received and it plays music.  Is there a way to get it to mute as nicely as with the BNC and co-ax inputs?


Not sure why you go into unlock at the end of music. What source are you using and what do you use to for i2s output?


----------



## MartinWT

xiamen said:


> Not sure why you go into unlock at the end of music. What source are you using and what do you use to for i2s output?


Raspberry Pi 3 with Allo Kali I2S reclocker and HDMI send board.  Volumio software.


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> Raspberry Pi 3 with Allo Kali I2S reclocker and HDMI send board.  Volumio software.



LKS004 is a master clock DAC, Allo's site mentions that this type of DAC is not compatible.
You could try to set the DPLL bandwidth to 15 to see if it mitigates the issue.
(Bangs and booms on the audio output are a symptom of PLL lock failure on the LKS)

https://www.allo.com/sparky/kali-reclocker.html


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> (Bangs and booms on the audio output are a symptom of PLL lock failure on the LKS)


Interestingly, the S/PDIF inputs mute perfectly on unlock.


----------



## wersuss

Thank you.


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> You could try to set the DPLL bandwidth to 15 to see if it mitigates the issue.


Yes, that's helped a little bit.  I can put up with it for the astonishing resolution from I2S, but I'm still assessing the balance at the moment.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> TX2575-2 68.1 ohm on a Gen1.
> If you have a Gen 2 (the one with the low powered XO regulator) it is 62ohms
> 
> This is a 2 module resistor that can dissipate up to 0.8W with no air flow and 1.2W with some air flow.
> ...



Thank you. How many resistors are there to change? I found on Ebay is this the same?
I think my version of dac is 2, so i will order 62 ohm ones, what about wattage doesn't matter?
Here's link:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Texas-Comp...3cb102014:m:mSv7ZY4vRvxNJ1OkV8NSEtQ:rk:1:pf:0
And my DAC board :


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> TX2575-2 68.1 ohm on a Gen1.
> If you have a Gen 2 (the one with the low powered XO regulator) it is 62ohms
> 
> This is a 2 module resistor that can dissipate up to 0.8W with no air flow and 1.2W with some air flow.
> ...




I have also 68.1 ohm resistors but in a second generation 004 and yes - it has the low powered XO regulator. Only measurements can tell what exactly is inside...


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Thank you. How many resistors are there to change? I found on Ebay is this the same?
> I think my version of dac is 2, so i will order 62 ohm ones, what about wattage doesn't matter?
> Here's link:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Texas-Comp...3cb102014:m:mSv7ZY4vRvxNJ1OkV8NSEtQ:rk:1:pf:0
> And my DAC board :


You will need 4 resistors.
Order the TX2575-2 directly from Texas Components, the ones on ebay have only half of the recommended power rating.

Custom orders run between $30-$60 USD depending on the specified precision.

The I/V resistors are on the underside, if you want to be sure take a look on the underside for the exact value.


----------



## MartinWT

Are there any feelings about the relative sound qualities of Texas versus Vishay I/V resistors?


----------



## Monolithic (Mar 1, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> Are there any feelings about the relative sound qualities of Texas versus Vishay I/V resistors?



I'm not sure exactly what you're asking.  Texas Components makes custom resistor values from Vishay Precision Group Naked Bulk Metal® Z-Foil resistor chips.
http://www.texascomponents.com/pdf/tx2575.pdf


----------



## mandrake50

Hello folks, I just got my MH-DA004  with the upgraded Amanero board. last night.
I am having a problem. I hope someone here can give me some suggestions on things to look at to fix it.
When I first hooked it up I had installed the Combo384 drivers from the web site. When I plugged it in it appeared that it connected and loaded the driver. Except that Foobar failed to play anything through it "Failed to initialize driver" error.  I spent a bunch of time on this Win 10 laptop to remove the driver completely tonight so I could reload it. Now it is not recognized at all by windows.  If I run the USB through the Upton Regen, at least windows makes the tome that indicates something was plugged in. USB direct to the laptop gives no indication that anything has been connected. The 004 does not show up in device manager nor in the sound panel.
I tried a different laptop. This time a Windows 7 machine. Drivers loaded fine, but I got the same results. On Both machines I tried all of the available USB ports (three on each laptop) and three different cables.
BTW using the same cables and USB ports the SMSL SU8 that I also just got yesterday works fine. This should climate USB port or cable problems as the root cause, I think.
So it would seem that the Amenaro board is not enumerating to windows. I have reset the power by unplugging from the wall for periods of time... no change.
So would it be worth opening it up and trying to reseat the board? Can I do some quick checks for voltage perhaps? Is this something that has been reported before for this board.
Any assistance will be appreciated.
Darn it, I was really looking forward to listening to this thing.
Oh and unfortunately, I have no way other than USB to connect a digital player to the DAC.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> You will need 4 resistors.
> Order the TX2575-2 directly from Texas Components, the ones on ebay have only half of the recommended power rating.
> 
> Custom orders run between $30-$60 USD depending on the specified precision.
> ...



I can't see value of resistors, and to be sure which Crystek is better CCHD 950X , or CCHD 575X?


----------



## wersuss (Mar 1, 2019)

mandrake50 said:


> Hello folks, I just got my MH-DA004  with the upgraded Amanero board. last night.
> I am having a problem. I hope someone here can give me some suggestions on things to look at to fix it.
> When I first hooked it up I had installed the Combo384 drivers from the web site. When I plugged it in it appeared that it connected and loaded the driver. Except that Foobar failed to play anything through it "Failed to initialize driver" error.  I spent a bunch of time on this Win 10 laptop to remove the driver completely tonight so I could reload it. Now it is not recognized at all by windows.  If I run the USB through the Upton Regen, at least windows makes the tome that indicates something was plugged in. USB direct to the laptop gives no indication that anything has been connected. The 004 does not show up in device manager nor in the sound panel.
> I tried a different laptop. This time a Windows 7 machine. Drivers loaded fine, but I got the same results. On Both machines I tried all of the available USB ports (three on each laptop) and three different cables.
> ...


Have you contacted seller? When mine didn't recognize usb card i had to reflash firmware.


----------



## Monolithic (Mar 1, 2019)

wersuss said:


> I can't see value of resistors, and to be sure which Crystek is better CCHD 950X , or CCHD 575X?



It's the four vertical resistors just below the aluminum heat sink bar (blue cap next to each resistor). Photo is too grainy to see color banding on the resistors.


----------



## Paul Staples

mandrake50 said:


> Hello folks, I just got my MH-DA004  with the upgraded Amanero board. last night.
> I am having a problem. I hope someone here can give me some suggestions on things to look at to fix it.
> When I first hooked it up I had installed the Combo384 drivers from the web site. When I plugged it in it appeared that it connected and loaded the driver. Except that Foobar failed to play anything through it "Failed to initialize driver" error.  I spent a bunch of time on this Win 10 laptop to remove the driver completely tonight so I could reload it. Now it is not recognized at all by windows.  If I run the USB through the Upton Regen, at least windows makes the tome that indicates something was plugged in. USB direct to the laptop gives no indication that anything has been connected. The 004 does not show up in device manager nor in the sound panel.
> I tried a different laptop. This time a Windows 7 machine. Drivers loaded fine, but I got the same results. On Both machines I tried all of the available USB ports (three on each laptop) and three different cables.
> ...



Remove the top and back of case, take out the amanero and flash with latest firmware, this helped cure my problem and may also help in your case?


----------



## mandrake50

wersuss said:


> Have you contacted seller? When mine didn't recognize usb card i had to reflash firmware.


Yes. He had me flash the firmware. It is still doing the same thing. Checking the driver in device manager it tells me that the device is not connected. It is, and powered on.


----------



## mandrake50

Paul Staples said:


> Remove the top and back of case, take out the amanero and flash with latest firmware, this helped cure my problem and may also help in your case?


Thanks. I did the flash. No change. Crap!


----------



## Paul Staples

mandrake50 said:


> Thanks. I did the flash. No change. Crap!


sorry to hear that mate!
My device was also not recognised in windows 10 pro, device manager. But the amanero firmware flash solved the issue.
Sounds like some kind of software incompatibility to me.
Worst case (?) hardware fault!
This 'recognition' thing seems to be "an issue" with the amanero in general.
Please keep us up to date!
Thanks!


----------



## MartinWT

Monolithic said:


> Texas Components makes custom resistor values from Vishay Precision Group Naked Bulk Metal® Z-Foil resistor chips.
> http://www.texascomponents.com/pdf/tx2575.pdf


Thanks, I didn't know that.


----------



## wersuss (Mar 2, 2019)

Monolithic said:


> It's the four vertical resistors just below the aluminum heat sink bar (blue cap next to each resistor). Photo is too grainy to see color banding on the resistors.


Here is clearer photo. How can you determine this resistor? Would 4x 0.6W TX2575 enough? Maybe anyone knows which Crystal oscilator is best for direct swap in without changing voltage regulators and caps is it 950X or* AOCJY1* i should order?


----------



## b0bb (Mar 2, 2019)

wersuss said:


> Would 4x 0.6W TX2575 enough?


No.

Single module TX2575 (aka TX2575-1) are 0.4W units not 0.6W
This is lower than the stock component.
http://www.texascomponents.com/pdf/tx2575.pdf


004's full scale current is 65mA, the resistor will have to get rid of 0.3W of heat.

In your version of the DAC with the heatsink adding heat to the surrounding area and no active airflow around the resistor, lowering the power handling capability of the resistor is asking for trouble in the future.
The stock Gen2 resistor is already a compromise at 0.5W, Gen1 I/V resistors are 1W and twice the size.

If you are going to the trouble of modding the DAC, correcting this penny pinching tradeoff oversight on the part of LKS is one step in the right direction.

 


wersuss said:


> Maybe anyone knows which Crystal oscilator is best for direct swap in without changing voltage regulators and caps is it 950X or* AOCJY1* i should order?



Stick to the 950X, AOCJY1 steady state current is 300mA. This is 50% higher than the max current of the onboard regulator on your DAC


----------



## mandrake50

Paul Staples said:


> sorry to hear that mate!
> My device was also not recognised in windows 10 pro, device manager. But the amanero firmware flash solved the issue.
> Sounds like some kind of software incompatibility to me.
> Worst case (?) hardware fault!
> ...


 Well I got it working by re-flashing the card a third time. I am not sure what I may have done wrong the first two times through the process, but it is recognized and working now.
Jinbo was going to send me a new USB card, but that would have meant at least another week before I could use the 004. I am glad I got it going.

Thanks for the comments and support!


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> No.
> 
> Single module TX2575 (aka TX2575-1) are 0.4W units not 0.6W
> This is lower than the stock component.
> ...



Thank you. Then maybe there is some other resistor to replace stock ones?


----------



## Xoverman

Hello Forum,
I installed the 950x last week and dun some serious testing today. The 950x sounds les aggressive but still involving .
Great upgrade. It sounds more natural, not so sharp. 
There's something else I also discovered. As my name says , I like to design loudspeakers. So once in a while I measure step response. 
By Accident I didn't use my audio analyser as default output, instead the 004 was the output. The scan result was a up side down step response. 
What means that the XLR outputs off the 004 are 180° out of phase. Of course that's easy to fix, you just have to switch 2 wiers in each XLR plug. 
But still you have to know that there is a problem. 
I tested 2 other DAC's . Both had the step response in the correct polarity. Just the 004 was the other way around ( 180° ).
After fixing the problem by switching the polarity in the XLR plug, I could listen to my music much louder and longer without getting tiered .
I thought this might be interesting for the forum


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Thank you. Then maybe there is some other resistor to replace stock ones?


Higher power TX2575s are made to order, such as as the 0.8W TX2575-2 , 1.2W TX2575-3 etc.
Texas components makes these from the Vishay Z-foils


----------



## aggielaw

Xoverman said:


> Hello Forum,
> I installed the 950x last week and dun some serious testing today. The 950x sounds les aggressive but still involving .
> Great upgrade. It sounds more natural, not so sharp.
> There's something else I also discovered. As my name says , I like to design loudspeakers. So once in a while I measure step response.
> ...



Having once owned a set of speakers (nOrh 9.0s) that shipped with polarity reversed at the tweeter connection I assume this is a very important problem, as it was with the nOrhs.  However, if the XLRs are 180 degrees out of phase, wouldn't that prevent precise images in the soundstage?  It seems like someone would have noticed that before now if all 004s shipped with this deficiency.  

At any rate, for those of us not comfortable modifying our XLR cables, what is the alternative option?  

Thanks for pointing this out as a potential issue!


----------



## MartinWT (Mar 2, 2019)

aggielaw said:


> However, if the XLRs are 180 degrees out of phase, wouldn't that prevent precise images in the soundstage?


No, that would happen if one channel was out of phase.  This is both channels not having absolute phase.  There are some recordings that have incorrect absolute phase so I'm not sure how serious a problem it is in reality.

It can be easily fixed by reversing the speaker connections but you would need to check that your preamp/power amp are not themselves reversing phase.


----------



## mandrake50

After I got the Amanero talking to the world I have got some time to listen. I like what I am hearing, though I have not gotten to seriously listen.
I have a couple of questions.
Has anyone taken time to compare the bypass mode with running the volume all of the way up (0.0 dB)? I think I ma noticing a difference with the bypass mode seeming to be thinner sounding. Maybe losing some of the middle range. Bass missing some body, but not extension. Electric guitar not sounding as full. Again I only did quick tests and not with much varied material. Just curious.
What are some thoughts on the different filters? The manual is not real good at descriptions. They may just be common ESS filters. Perhaps someone has seen actual test data on these?
Can anyone comment on what they use and why?  Honestly I can't tell (so far) much difference. I settled on either apodising or the hybrid. Mostly because I have seen test results that indicate less pre-ringing with that type of filter
Anyway, so far I am happy with the purchase... minus having to screw with the damn USB card.
At some point after it has a few hours on it, I hope to listen seriously and maybe compare to some of the other DACS here. .As I mentioned before, I also picked up the SMSLSU8. On paper there should be little comparison, but who knows until the listening starts.


----------



## aggielaw

Like you, I do not hear much difference between the filters.  The only difference I noticed was a very slight further emphasis on the leading edge of notes with some filters, making the 004 sound even edgier than it otherwise does.  I've read other posts in this thread that indicate others hear a significant difference, though.  Every system is a bit different, I guess.  

Interesting finding regarding volume bypass.  I use a preamp behind the DAC, so I have always bypassed the internal volume control, which is a generally recommended practice.  It's counter intuitive that employing the volume control would sound better, but trust your ears!  What matters is your happiness, not others' reasoning or opinions. 

Speaking of hearing less difference than others, I did not hear the significant gains of adding a USB to I2S converter between my streamer and DAC.  Perhaps a some minor differences in staging, but not a large gain by any means.  I suspect this is partly due to the extensive modifications Ric Schultz performed to my unit en route to me from the dealer, but as I've not heard an unmodified 004 I can't say for sure.


----------



## mandrake50

aggielaw said:


> Like you, I do not hear much difference between the filters.  The only difference I noticed was a very slight further emphasis on the leading edge of notes with some filters, making the 004 sound even edgier than it otherwise does.  I've read other posts in this thread that indicate others hear a significant difference, though.  Every system is a bit different, I guess.
> 
> Interesting finding regarding volume bypass.  I use a preamp behind the DAC, so I have always bypassed the internal volume control, which is a generally recommended practice.  It's counter intuitive that employing the volume control would sound better, but trust your ears!  What matters is your happiness, not others' reasoning or opinions.
> 
> Speaking of hearing less difference than others, I did not hear the significant gains of adding a USB to I2S converter between my streamer and DAC.  Perhaps a some minor differences in staging, but not a large gain by any means.  I suspect this is partly due to the extensive modifications Ric Schultz performed to my unit en route to me from the dealer, but as I've not heard an unmodified 004 I can't say for sure.


Curious as to whether you have even bothered to switch back and forth between 0.0 dB attenuation and "bypass" modes. I did not expect any difference at all. I am driving a Gustard H20 and it does have a volume control. I originally just cranked the volume to max and listened. Reading the manual I saw the bypass mode and tried it, for the same reason that you state. I thought, darn, what just happened.
If you have time and inclination, give it a try and let me know whether it is just me or my setup.


----------



## Xoverman

OK ☺,  out of phase ( 180°) :
If you have a standard hifi system I guess it's not a big deal. But my system go's down to 14 Hz. 
So when the ear / brain receives the leading transient or harmonic, like from a bass drum, it expects a pressure wave, not a vacuum wave.
At least under 500Hz. If that's not the case then, the Brain go's crazy. Some peaple even start to sweat and develop fear.
This effect only happens with percussion instruments or long strings that are being hit hard. ( low notes of piano ).
You will not notice it on pipe instruments .
Cheers


----------



## Paul Staples

mandrake50 said:


> Well I got it working by re-flashing the card a third time. I am not sure what I may have done wrong the first two times through the process, but it is recognized and working now.
> Jinbo was going to send me a new USB card, but that would have meant at least another week before I could use the 004. I am glad I got it going.
> 
> Thanks for the comments and support!


Well done! ~ does sometimes take a few goes! Just like rebooting a PC a few times after a crash! Same difference!


----------



## Paul Staples

mandrake50 said:


> Curious as to whether you have even bothered to switch back and forth between 0.0 dB attenuation and "bypass" modes. I did not expect any difference at all. I am driving a Gustard H20 and it does have a volume control. I originally just cranked the volume to max and listened. Reading the manual I saw the bypass mode and tried it, for the same reason that you state. I thought, darn, what just happened.
> If you have time and inclination, give it a try and let me know whether it is just me or my setup.


how to select "bypass" please?


----------



## piaseczek (Mar 3, 2019)

.


----------



## piaseczek

wersuss said:


> I can't see value of resistors, and to be sure which Crystek is better CCHD 950X , or CCHD 575X?



Wersuss,
According to b0bb 950x is much better. 575x sound the same as the stock 575.

You have the same version of the 004 as mine. Resistors are probably 68.1ohm 0.6W.

Are there any pads between the transistors and the aluminium heatsink in your DAC?
Could you measure the resistance between PE and RCA? I have the strangely high measure in my DAC and I would like to affirm that


----------



## piaseczek

Xoverman said:


> There's something else I also discovered. As my name says , I like to design loudspeakers. So once in a while I measure step response.
> By Accident I didn't use my audio analyser as default output, instead the 004 was the output. The scan result was a up side down step response.
> What means that the XLR outputs off the 004 are 180° out of phase. Of course that's easy to fix, you just have to switch 2 wiers in each XLR plug.
> But still you have to know that there is a problem.
> ...



Omg, I hope that someday LKS will release a DAC without any technical issues.


----------



## wersuss

piaseczek said:


> Wersuss,
> According to b0bb 950x is much better. 575x sound the same as the stock 575.
> 
> You have the same version of the 004 as mine. Resistors are probably 68.1ohm 0.6W.
> ...



There are only 2 pads for DAC chips underneath. I can check resistance, but what is PE? RCA you mean from plug +?
Thank you everyone for replies, i have checked resistors it's 61 ohm by color code. I have ordered 950X from Mouser.com and will try to swap it with hot air gun. Just not sure yet what temperature is safe.


----------



## piaseczek

wersuss said:


> There are only 2 pads for DAC chips underneath. I can check resistance, but what is PE? RCA you mean from plug +?
> Thank you everyone for replies, i have checked resistors it's 61 ohm by color code. I have ordered 950X from Mouser.com and will try to swap it with hot air gun. Just not sure yet what temperature is safe.



Please measure the resistance value between an outer shell of RCA socket (a minus contact) and a middle pin of a IEC. PE is a "protective earth"


----------



## piaseczek (Mar 3, 2019)

B0bb,
Can you confirm that a pin 2 is a minus?
It would be very strange, in user's manual pin 2 is described as a plus.


----------



## Lennym

mandrake50 said:


> <snip>
> What are some thoughts on the different filters? The manual is not real good at descriptions. They may just be common ESS filters. Perhaps someone has seen actual test data on these?
> Can anyone comment on what they use and why?  Honestly I can't tell (so far) much difference. I settled on either apodising or the hybrid. Mostly because I have seen test results that indicate less pre-ringing with that type of filter
> <snip>



They are common ESS filters.  For more details you might have a look here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-48


----------



## MartinWT

That confirms my choice of SLOW-M as sounding the best. It has terrific attack due to there being no pre-ringing, but a slow roll-off to best preserve phase. I used the same filter in my Ayre C-5xe MP SACD player.


----------



## MartinWT

Paul Staples said:


> how to select "bypass" please?


'BYP' on the remote and left or right to disable/enable.  The display says FIXED VOL.

I just tried disabling fixed volume and leaving it set to 0dB.  I sense a little less high frequency brightness, which goes in a good direction for my system.


----------



## mandrake50

Paul Staples said:


> how to select "bypass" please?


 On the remote there is a dedicated button labeled  "BYP" second row from the top, center button. The display will show YES    NO.
Use the arrow keys to move left or right to select YES for Bypass, or NO for using the volume control.


----------



## mandrake50

MartinWT said:


> 'BYP' on the remote and left or right to disable/enable.  The display says FIXED VOL.
> 
> I just tried disabling fixed volume and leaving it set to 0dB.  I sense a little less high frequency brightness, which goes in a good direction for my system.



That is what I noticed. A slight reduction in brightness and just a bit more fullness in the midbass. Not huge differences, but definitely noticeable.


----------



## mandrake50

Lennym said:


> They are common ESS filters.  For more details you might have a look here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-48



Perfect! Thanks for that.


----------



## Paul Staples

MartinWT said:


> 'BYP' on the remote and left or right to disable/enable.  The display says FIXED VOL.
> 
> I just tried disabling fixed volume and leaving it set to 0dB.  I sense a little less high frequency brightness, which goes in a good direction for my system.


many thanks!

no wonder I can't find it on the front panel then!


----------



## Paul Staples

mandrake50 said:


> On the remote there is a dedicated button labeled  "BYP" second row from the top, center button. The display will show YES    NO.
> Use the arrow keys to move left or right to select YES for Bypass, or NO for using the volume control.


many thanks!


----------



## littlexx26

gustard x26 just announced. it has twin 9038pro, with built in ess usb solution


----------



## MartinWT

mandrake50 said:


> That is what I noticed. A slight reduction in brightness and just a bit more fullness in the midbass. Not huge differences, but definitely noticeable.


I'll go further and say that this has sorted the balance issue I had since starting to use I2S over S/PDIF.  I2S is even more of an open window and the LKS could sound a little relentless on some music.  Setting volume to 0dB rather than fixed has really helped, together with switching my XLR cables to Townshend Isolda DCT 300 which are also an incredibly wide open window.  What comes through now is huge detail in a soundstage that is well balanced and focussed and not a little potent.

Qobuz has never sounded this good.


----------



## MartinWT

Crystek 950X just received from Mouser.


----------



## wersuss

piaseczek said:


> Please measure the resistance value between an outer shell of RCA socket (a minus contact) and a middle pin of a IEC. PE is a "protective earth"



Hi! It deosn't show any resistance this way, but shows around 180 from RCA ground to DC connectors. I should get better meter.


----------



## sanvara (Mar 4, 2019)

Windows 10 PC -> Belden 8723 USB cable -> Gustard U16 -> Pangea Premier HDMI -> LKS DA004 -> TC7240 4 way RCA line router to switch between DAC and Turntable -> Schiit Loki -> iFi iTube2 -> Elac Navis ARB51 powered speakers
Belden 1505A RCA cables used for the connections

I'm blown away at how good well recorded music sounds with the above in a small room.


----------



## piaseczek

wersuss said:


> Hi! It deosn't show any resistance this way, but shows around 180 from RCA ground to DC connectors. I should get better meter.



Thank you. So have you got the infinite resistance as b0bb?

What do you mean by the DC connector?


----------



## piaseczek

aggielaw said:


> Having once owned a set of speakers (nOrh 9.0s) that shipped with polarity reversed at the tweeter connection I assume this is a very important problem, as it was with the nOrhs.  However, if the XLRs are 180 degrees out of phase, wouldn't that prevent precise images in the soundstage?  It seems like someone would have noticed that before now if all 004s shipped with this deficiency.
> 
> At any rate, for those of us not comfortable modifying our XLR cables, what is the alternative option?
> 
> Thanks for pointing this out as a potential issue!



You can replace cables to your loudspeakers, white to red and red to white binding post.


----------



## Xoverman

I just found out by accident.


----------



## Xoverman

When the signal is 180° out of phase , imaging is very sharp but nero. Most of the time the soundstage will stay within the boundaries of the speakers .
If everything is in phase soundstage is wide under far beyond the speakers, and imaging  is just a little less sharp. 
And it doesn't get on your nerves.  ☺  cheers


----------



## odessamarin (Mar 5, 2019)

Xoverman said:


> By Accident I didn't use my audio analyser as default output, instead the 004 was the output. The scan result was a up side down step response.
> What means that the XLR outputs off the 004 are 180° out of phase. Of course that's easy to fix, you just have to switch 2 wiers in each XLR plug.
> But still you have to know that there is a problem.



How is your source connected, I2S?
Is there somewhere in menu "PHASE: NORMAL/INVERT"?


----------



## Xoverman

I'm using a singxer SU 1 and the I2S. But the Amanero SUB board brings the same result.


----------



## odessamarin (Mar 5, 2019)

Ok, seems false alarm here regarding 180 phase.. I think you have not correct pins connected by I2S.
Try coax or optical.. it should be fine without phase shift.. I think you have I2S two pins swaped.  There is still no standard among different DDC, hdmi.. you need to be sure which pin goes where.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gustard-x20-dac.780385/page-11#post-12024624


----------



## MartinWT

I'm using I2S input and XLR output and the comments about absolute phase (more accurately, polarity) were puzzling.  Transients feel like a positive pulse and the soundstage is wide, occasionally well outside of the speakers.


----------



## Xoverman

odessamarin said:


> Ok, seems false alarm here regarding 180 phase.. I think you have not correct pins connected by I2S.
> Try coax or optical.. it should be fine without phase shift.. I think you have I2S two pins swaped.  There is still no standard among different DDC, hdmi.. you need to be sure which pin goes where.
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gustard-x20-dac.780385/page-11#post-12024624


That's interesting!!! But why is USB amanero all so inverted?


----------



## odessamarin (Mar 5, 2019)

Xoverman said:


> That's interesting!!! But why is USB amanero all so inverted?



just try coax or optical.. I am also curious


----------



## wersuss

piaseczek said:


> Thank you. So have you got the infinite resistance as b0bb?
> 
> What do you mean by the DC connector?


Hi! It's infinate yes,  dc connector i mean the board connectors going to both power supplies.


----------



## Paul Staples

Xoverman said:


> I'm using a singxer SU 1 and the I2S. But the Amanero SUB board brings the same result.


I am using the 004 with the singxer SU-1 via i2s, in my case the amanero is not in the same league.


----------



## Xoverman

Paul Staples said:


> I am using the 004 with the singxer SU-1 via i2s, in my case the amanero is not in the same league.


It brings the same results in 180° step response ☺


----------



## xiamen

Xoverman said:


> It brings the same results in 180° step response ☺


Should check with Jinbo at lks.


----------



## Xoverman

I'll check all inputs and outputs this weekend


----------



## gaddabout

I do have since yesterday the DA004 at home. Sounds promising.
How do I find out what hardware revision I'm holding. Is this device with the upgraded Amanero?
Since there is no serial number available....on the warranty card nothing is noted.
For sure there are some combination with the remote control to show information.
When booting it shows: 18.08s
Any help is much appreciated.
thanks


----------



## MartinWT

I now have a Crystek CCHD-950X crystal and am planning on having this swapped into my LKS, together with some Charcroft (Vishay) Z-Foil I/V resistors.  I am looking to tame the slightly bright aspect without losing its tremendous edge detail and dynamics.  Is there anything else which should really be done while it's opened up?


----------



## b0bb (Mar 13, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> .., together with some Charcroft (Vishay) Z-Foil I/V resistors.  I am looking to tame the slightly bright aspect without losing its tremendous edge detail and dynamics.  Is there anything else which should really be done while it's opened up?



The power handling Charcroft resistors rating is 0.4W, that is 20% below the stock value of the Gen2 DACs
This is inadequate, power handling being worse than stock. The stock Gen2 resistor power handling is already a compromise compared to the Gen1 units



Power handling drops to 0.2W at its maximum temperature range, this is 30% below the max for the DAC at 0.3W


https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/charcroft_datasheet.pdf

Texas Components makes the higher powered versions of this resistor (0.8W, 1.2W etc) and  ships to destinations outside of the US.

Modifications should be taken one step at a time, if too many things are changed at once and you do not like the end result it can be both frustrating and expensive to fix.
If you want to get a better idea, take look at the LKS MH DA003 page in the Computer Audio section on the changes.


----------



## MartinWT

Thanks @b0bb I hadn't noticed that the Charcrofts are not available in higher power ratings.  Good shout and I will stick with the Texas ones.


----------



## mandrake50 (Mar 14, 2019)

Hey folks,
I got my DA004 a couple of weeks ago. I had some issues with connecting it to anything. After 3 attempts at re-flashing the Amanero  (enhanced) board I go that fixed. Really no excuse for that kind of thing in a unit that costs as much as this one does. Besides having to re-flash the firmware, I have to note that is a PIA. Now I have worked with and on electronics for years. So taking the unit apart three times was doable for me. Not enjoyable, but doable. For others it may not be something that they would ever want to do, or maybe be capable of doing. The process for flashing on the latest firmware is quite frankly ridiculous. A real crappy design. I guess they think you will never need to do it. Based on several reports here, they are wrong!
 If you decide to buy one of these, just be aware of this.

Having said that I have to say that for me, once it is working, using the 004 has been a great revelation. I have a bunch of equipment that all has been purchased on a bang for the buck basis. Over the years I have been coerced, or maybe cajoled, or just forced by peer pressure to increase the maximum that I would spend on the hobby. So the combination I am using now is the pinnacle from that perspective. I know that many of you will scoff. But the 004 and Gustard H20 cost together close to what I spent on my latest HT AVR. (Denon X6400H). That unit does so much more and is used so much more. Remember bang for the buck... part of that is how much the cost is per hour of actual use.
So, I just don't have that much time to be able to be tethered to a cable and headphones.
Back to the headphone system. I often read things by people that comment about hearing things that hey have never heard. They mention more "air" around instruments, layering and sound stage. (editorial comment, sound stage, I prefer sound field, in any headphone I have heard is more a matter of inches outside of my head). Well all of these have been more apparent in my listening with the mentioned system. It just sounds real good to me.
I have run the system in for about 150 hours. I am a sceptic when it comes to "burn in" for electronics. I just do it so that when_  post impressions_, this does not become a question. I have used primarily three headphones, The HEK V1 (V2 pads lightly modded), the HE 560 (v2, I am not sure, recent vintage but not the latest rendition), and the Mr. Speakers Aeon Flow closed (no filters used). I have used all of them for a relatively long time and with several different systems, so I am familiar with their sound. They all have at least a couple of hundred hours on them.

Impressions, well I like it . It could get better with different resistors or clocks. At this point I don't think_  am motivated by the potential_  (and very subjective) reports of making it better to screw with it. Maybe one day if the satisfaction level decreases. If ever.

_ I _do notice a tilt towards the high end, but that may well be the headphones used with it. , but I think that this may really be the clarity that I hear. I have had "bright" equipment that actually is painful at times to listen to. This is not that way. Just great detail. The HE560 in particular shows this, but where it would show congestion along with its upper mids with other systems, it is a still bit peaky, but very clean in the current system. Some of the wide field instrument location in Binaural recording actually made me jump a bit with this combination. But again, it was maybe a foot outside of my head.  Nothing like the 15 feet in my HT that it can and does do all of the time.

Anyway, I need to do more listening over time with more music. At this time though, I am quite favorably impressed. Even though the damn thing was more money than I wanted to spend on a hobby that has already cost me way more than it is worth (considering the time I have to really listen), when I put that aside (damn pragmatism) , I think it was a good purchase. If being happy with something is the only criteria, this is good.


----------



## MartinWT

mandrake50 said:


> _I _do notice a tilt towards the high end, but that may well be the headphones used with it. , but I think that this may really be the clarity that I hear. I have had "bright" equipment that actually is painful at times to listen to.


I completely agree.  The vast wealth of fine detail and the amazing attack on transients makes the brain think 'bright'.  However, my LKS has settled down after a couple of hundred hours and the brain has readjusted to its incredible resolution.  It isn't bright but it sure does provide insight into the music.  It opens up the window into the performance (especially using I2S) such that I am still amazed at what was captured in the recording.

Strangely, I am only doing a few mods to it soon because it is that good already.  So, clock and resistors, then I shall be very pleased with the sound for years to come.  This, together with Qobuz, has transformed my listening experience.


----------



## jazzk

I agree with u mandrake50. I too use my lks with a gustard h20 and couldn’t be happier. I attended canjam in New York and tried to listen to as many high end setups as I could in one day (slightly overwhelming) and came home and was glad to put my senn 800,s with this setup. Sounded close to the best I heard there. I also enjoy my fostex  Purple Hearts on this setup, a little more slam than the senns. The lks and gustard give u a lot of bang for the $. U could spend 2 to 3 time as much and only achieve a marginal improvement in sound. I’m pretty content now and have quelled my desire for upgraditis.  I also own a kte spring holo but I prefer the lks for headphone listening, the spring is in my stereo system.  Anyone on the fence about lks I don’t think u can go wrong for the $.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> The power handling Charcroft resistors rating is 0.4W, that is 20% below the stock value of the Gen2 DACs
> This is inadequate, power handling being worse than stock. The stock Gen2 resistor power handling is already a compromise compared to the Gen1 units
> 
> 
> ...


Hi b0bb , maybe you know which exactly resistor i need what value in my calculation it's 68.1 ohm.


----------



## Paul Staples

jazzk said:


> I agree with u mandrake50. I too use my lks with a gustard h20 and couldn’t be happier. I attended canjam in New York and tried to listen to as many high end setups as I could in one day (slightly overwhelming) and came home and was glad to put my senn 800,s with this setup. Sounded close to the best I heard there. I also enjoy my fostex  Purple Hearts on this setup, a little more slam than the senns. The lks and gustard give u a lot of bang for the $. U could spend 2 to 3 time as much and only achieve a marginal improvement in sound. I’m pretty content now and have quelled my desire for upgraditis.  I also own a kte spring holo but I prefer the lks for headphone listening, the spring is in my stereo system.  Anyone on the fence about lks I don’t think u can go wrong for the $.


+1


----------



## mandrake50

Hi again,
I am curious about mods. First with the I/V resistors. There seems to be concerns both about quality and power handling. The sound quality of resistors is a subject I can't address, but power handling is something I am familiar with. If the resistors are operating in spec, other than possibly longevity, are the stock resistors a problem from this perspective. I think I would be more likely to replace these if it is a failure mode problem.

Overall though I am curious to learn more specifics about what the different clock changes and resistor changes do for the sound. Has anyone taken any test data showing specific changes in performance?
I am aware that all sound changes don't translate to measurements so maybe some kind of description of the perceived sound changes would help in motivating me one way or another.
BTW I have been compulsive about optimizing different systems in the past. I have agonized of making many things from engines, to electric motors and even other audio gear. Not that long ago I spent lots of time and money rebuilding my Hafler DH500. About 40 damn caps, output modules etc. So I have no problem doing things if there is a reasonable expectation of return on investment. So I am just trying to figure out whether I can see where doing some of the previously discussed mods would be worth my time and money.
Maybe someone can tell me what differences in SQ they have heard, and in order, which mods give the most benefit.

Thanks for any input on this.


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Hi b0bb , maybe you know which exactly resistor i need what value in my calculation it's 68.1 ohm.



To get the exact value for your DAC, desolder the resistors and measure the resistance.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> To get the exact value for your DAC, desolder the resistors and measure the resistance.


Thank you. I swapped to 950X clock, not much difference at mp3 files, maybe with DSD there is bigger difference.


----------



## MartinWT (Mar 20, 2019)

The LKS benefits greatly from a grounding box.  I'm using an SGS-1s but I tried a Coherent RTZ too.  It needs at least two ground cables, to the S/PDIF digital input and an analogue output.  A third ground cable to the USB input gave a further small improvement.

I hear big improvements in soundstage depth, air and space and also the 'shape' of notes like the proper sound of violin strings.  There is also a reduction in harshness.  No change in the already great dynamics or bass extension.


----------



## littlexx26 (Mar 20, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> The LKS benefits greatly from a grounding box.  I'm using an SGS-1s but I tried a Coherent RTZ too.  It needs at least two ground cables, to the S/PDIF digital input and an analogue output.  A third ground cable to the USB input gave a further small improvement.
> 
> I hear big improvements in soundstage depth, air and space and also the 'shape' of notes like the proper sound of violin strings.  There is also a reduction in harshness.  No change in the already great dynamics or bass extension.


which analogue output you put? left or right channel?


----------



## MartinWT

I use the XLR balanced outputs so I just put the grounding cable croc clip to the right channel phono output ground - it's closer!


----------



## wersuss (Mar 20, 2019)

My cchd 950x , don't hear any sound change from stock 575 clock.  Maybe resistors should be replaced at the same time. Any other mods i could make without changing resistors?


----------



## MartinWT

wersuss said:


> My cchd 950x , don't hear any sound change from stock 575 clock.


Damn, I have a 950X now ready for swapping it.  Am going to switch the I/V resistors to the Texas ones, too.


----------



## wersuss (Mar 20, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> Damn, I have a 950X now ready for swapping it.  Am going to switch the I/V resistors to the Texas ones, too.


Try, maybe resistors will make bigger change. It might need burn in, mine is just 24 hours old.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 20, 2019)

wersuss said:


> Try, maybe resistors will make bigger change. It might need burn in, mine is just 24 hours old.



Give it 10-14 days to settle in.
Optionally keep the DAC on 24x7 for a few days, if you can keep an eye on it.
This has to be supervised to watch out for any early failures.

A MP3 track will not use the full performance capability of the DAC, get better source material natively recorded at high res.

High rate DSD (128x and above) is where the LKS really starts to shine and move ahead of the competition

The DSD samplers from BlueCoast, NativeDSD or PCM material HDtracks are starting points. The last option has material re-sampled from 44k1, so I consider is a backup.
BlueCoast has albums recorded at Native DSD256 with all the workflows, mixing and mastering all in the DSD256 or better resolution.


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> Damn, I have a 950X now ready for swapping it.  Am going to switch the I/V resistors to the Texas ones, too.



Hold off on buying the resistors if you are not sure, the Vishay resistors are expensive items.


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> My cchd 950x , don't hear any sound change from stock 575 clock.  Maybe resistors should be replaced at the same time. Any other mods i could make without changing resistors?



Did you use an adapter for the 950X ?
It looks like you soldered bare wires between the XO and the socket.
Without a proper groundplane and bypass cap on across the supply pins on the XO, it will not perform to specifications.
The adapter provides a local groundplane.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> Give it 10-14 days to settle in.
> Optionally keep the DAC on 24x7 for a few days, if you can keep an eye on it.
> This has to be supervised to watch out for any early failures.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I will leave it on now it's playing some burn in track all the time  I will try Blue Coast records and see difference in sound quality.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 21, 2019)

wersuss said:


> Thank you. I will leave it on now it's playing some burn in track all the time  I will try Blue Coast records and see difference in sound quality.


You may not see much of a difference, if any at all given the way the XO is mounted, you may find the performance to be significantly worse than the stock XO.

Twistedpear audio sells the RHEA adapter with the proper radio frequency (RF) grounding arrangements and a place for the bypass cap
http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/cronus.aspx

Without proper RF grounding, the XO metal shield can act as a radio antenna.
100MHz is at the top of the commercial FM radio band in most countries.
Audio in FM radio is the phase noise of the FM carrier.

CCHD950X is a very low phase noise device, a FM radio signal between 10-20uV superimposed on the XO output can increase the phase noise by 30X.
(I did an estimation of the increase on the LKS003 thread a few years back if you want to dig it up)


----------



## wersuss (Mar 21, 2019)

b0bb said:


> Give it 10-14 days to settle in.
> Optionally keep the DAC on 24x7 for a few days, if you can keep an eye on it.
> This has to be supervised to watch out for any early failures.
> 
> ...





b0bb said:


> Did you use an adapter for the 950X ?
> It looks like you soldered bare wires between the XO and the socket.
> Without a proper groundplane and bypass cap on across the supply pins on the XO, it will not perform to specifications.
> The adapter provides a local groundplane.





b0bb said:


> You may not see much of a difference, if any at all given the way the XO is mounted, you may find the performance to be significantly worse than the stock XO.
> 
> Twistedpear audio sells the RHEA adapter with the proper radio frequency (RF) grounding arrangements and a place for the bypass cap
> http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/cronus.aspx
> ...


Yes i used 14 pin adapter as shown earlier on this forum, how should i mount 950x? maybe some link how to add that twistedpear board? Does this 950x have more than 4 contact pins as original 575? Another question , i'm using singxer SU -1 , is it possible to upgrade the 575 on SU - 1 aswell?


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Yes i used 14 pin adapter as shown earlier on this forum, how should i mount 950x? maybe some link how to add that twistedpear board? Does this 950x have more than 4 contact pins as original 575? Another question , i'm using singxer SU -1 , is it possible to upgrade the 575 on SU - 1 aswell?



http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/cronus.aspx 

It is toward the bottom of the page
 

950x has the same pinout as the 575

LKS004 is a masterclock DAC, the signal is reclocked and regenerated by the DPLL.
The onboard XO on the LKS is the most important component for the DPLL.

SU-1 clocks are more than adequate as the clock for the Sigma Delta Modulator on the LKS004 is independent.
SU-1 clocks (WCLK and BCLK) is just used to control the data transfer across the I2S bus.


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> 950x has the same pinout as the 575


Very helpful, b0bb.  I will have mine professionally done as I don't have the equipment for hot air soldering.  The company will order in the Texas resistors after checking the values of mine.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/cronus.aspx
> 
> It is toward the bottom of the page
> 
> ...


Thank you  Maybe you know how to add that board to DAC? Do you mean that SU - 1 overtakes LKS internal clock using HDMI interface?


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Maybe you know how to add that board to DAC?


If the person doing your installation is not sure, ask them to remove the socket and solder the 950X directly on the DAC motherboard.



wersuss said:


> Do you mean that SU - 1 overtakes LKS internal clock using HDMI interface?


No, LKS ignores the masterclock from the SU-1


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/cronus.aspx
> 
> It is toward the bottom of the page
> 
> ...





b0bb said:


> If the person doing your installation is not sure, ask them to remove the socket and solder the 950X directly on the DAC motherboard.
> 
> 
> No, LKS ignores the masterclock from the SU-1



Thank you, I'm doing it by myself  i have heat gun. You think i could solder 950x in same place as 575 was using heat gun? Why the 14 pin adapter is bad because attracts radio signals?


----------



## MartinWT

I have just removed the USB daughter board from my LKS. I won't be needing that any more. The sound quality has taken a further small step up, which makes it well worth doing.


----------



## wersuss

MartinWT said:


> I have just removed the USB daughter board from my LKS. I won't be needing that any more. The sound quality has taken a further small step up, which makes it well worth doing.


Have you removed Amanero card? I did too. What are you using LKS 004 with now?


----------



## MartinWT

wersuss said:


> Have you removed Amanero card? I did too. What are you using LKS 004 with now?


No, I had the basic USB card.  I have no need for USB.

I am using the IIS-H input with a modified Audiophonics RaspDIG I2S streamer and Volumio.


----------



## wersuss

MartinWT said:


> No, I had the basic USB card.  I have no need for USB.
> 
> I am using the IIS-H input with a modified Audiophonics RaspDIG I2S streamer and Volumio.


Interesting. I wonder which interface for LKS 004 sounds best.


----------



## MartinWT

If you think about it, every interface feeds I2S. Therefore, by deduction, both I2S interfaces must sound best as they have the least processing.


----------



## Xoverman

Xoverman said:


> Hello Forum,
> I installed the 950x last week and dun some serious testing today. The 950x sounds les aggressive but still involving .
> Great upgrade. It sounds more natural, not so sharp.
> There's something else I also discovered. As my name says , I like to design loudspeakers. So once in a while I measure step response.
> ...


LKS is not out of phase!!!  It's fake news. I apologize!
I didn't know that Accuphase has inverted polarity on their XLR. Whel actually the rest of the world has it wrong, but that's a different story.


----------



## MartinWT

Xoverman said:


> It's fake news. I apologize!


Almost unheard of on the internet.  Well done!


----------



## Xoverman

Hello Forum. Here's a little story :
After reading the entire blog, I decided to upgrade the main clock to x950.
Sound became more relaxed without losing detail. I also read a lot of application notes about crystal clocks,
and found out that vibration is meager issue. I decided to put the transformers on soft rubber stands to
reduce 50Hz vibration coupled to the chassis.
The result was very disappointing. Soundstage did get more detaild, but bass degraded so much, that it I couldn't tolarat it.
It took me quite some time to find out what happened. My findings are that the position of the transformers are very fine balanced.
If you rase the transformers then noise gets induced into the nearby circuit board.
After my findings I tried shielding the transformers. With great results !!!
I then build a copper isolation wall and put the transformers on rubber stands.
Wow !!! What a result. I never heard such a good piano on any system before.
I have a friend that all so has a brand new LKS 004. We compared them, and the difference is a total different ballgame.
We are blown away.
Cheers.


----------



## Xoverman

Here's the copper wall.


----------



## Xoverman

Sorry


----------



## Xoverman

Last try to upload  the file of the wall.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> If the person doing your installation is not sure, ask them to remove the socket and solder the 950X directly on the DAC motherboard.
> 
> 
> No, LKS ignores the masterclock from the SU-1


Hi b0bb, i have removed adapter and soldered 950X directly on board using heatgun. Next mod should be resistors i guess?


----------



## wersuss

MartinWT said:


> If you think about it, every interface feeds I2S. Therefore, by deduction, both I2S interfaces must sound best as they have the least processing.


I was thinking same that i2S should be best, but i haven't heard any sound difference between AES and i2S. 



Xoverman said:


> Last try to upload  the file of the wall.


Great job. Any sound change after mods?


----------



## MartinWT

wersuss said:


> I was thinking same that i2S should be best, but i haven't heard any sound difference between AES and i2S.


I heard a big difference between BNC S/PDIF and I2S.


----------



## Forgisound

Much depends on the cable. I have a much better AES cable, Nordost Valhalla, while HDMI Aq Cinnamon. That's why AESAsound is a little better.


----------



## Xoverman

wersuss said:


> I was thinking same that i2S should be best, but i haven't heard any sound difference between AES and i2S.
> 
> 
> Great job. Any sound change after mods?


As I described earlier, bass is even more definde then with the untreated lks 004. Deep piano notes are much richer, 
and so clear and clean. Remember, I can switch between my modified lks and a one month old neu untreated 004 .
The difference is overwhelming. The copper wall, together with the rubber stands is the most effective tweak of all that I tried. 
Much more effective then switching the crystal or the power supply of the amanero board. I tried it all. 
But !!!  After the wall / stands tweak, because the DAC is so much more quiet and refined,  you can easely hear the crystal x950 tweak. 
And it's so easy to do.
Cheers


----------



## MartinWT

Forgisound said:


> Much depends on the cable. I have a much better AES cable, Nordost Valhalla, while HDMI Aq Cinnamon. That's why AESAsound is a little better.


Fair enough, I was listening to a Black Cat Silverstar 75 S/PDIF and, like you, have an Audioquest Cinnamon HDMI.  The Black Cat is the best S/PDIF cable I ever tried.


----------



## Xoverman

Dos anybody have a schematic of the analog output stage. As b0bb suggested,I would like to change the capacitors.
But I'd like to know what exactly I am Channing.


----------



## Paul Staples

Xoverman said:


> As I described earlier, bass is even more definde then with the untreated lks 004. Deep piano notes are much richer,
> and so clear and clean. Remember, I can switch between my modified lks and a one month old neu untreated 004 .
> The difference is overwhelming. The copper wall, together with the rubber stands is the most effective tweak of all that I tried.
> Much more effective then switching the crystal or the power supply of the amanero board. I tried it all.
> ...


How about the next step?   ....i.e. using external LPSU?   ...another step up in sound quality? (or not?).... cheers!


----------



## MartinWT

Paul Staples said:


> How about the next step?   ....i.e. using external LPSU?


The LKS has a built-in linear PSU. Why would you do that rather than tweak what it has already?


----------



## Xoverman

Paul Staples said:


> How about the next step?   ....i.e. using external LPSU?   ...another step up in sound quality? (or not?).... cheers!


Your exactly right. The LKS dos have very good cascaded linear power supplies, but it's all about getting the transformer vibration and the electromagnetic field out of of the DAC chassis. One thing to consider, the DAC is placed on dampening feet. If you place  both transformers in 2 new chassis then it makes cence to have the power switch one of the external chassis. Now the downside, you also need pretty thick cable's form the external chassis to the DAC. 
It also makes cence to have the receivers and the first Capacitors in the external chassis. I think "naim" has a DAC like that.
Back to the problem. If you have thick stiff cable's,  then some of the vibration will be fed back to the DAC through the cable. 
It's all very tricky.


----------



## Paul Staples (Apr 3, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> The LKS has a built-in linear PSU. Why would you do that rather than tweak what it has already?


....put the PSU outside the main unit, instead of building a copper wall for even greater isolation and less vibration.? (like Naim)


----------



## MartinWT

I've decided to order a hot air solder gun and do the crystal swap myself.  The parts should arrive in a few days so I shall keep you apprised.


----------



## Xoverman

Paul Staples said:


> ....put the PSU outside the main unit, instead of building a copper wall for even greater isolation and less vibration.? (like Naim)


Did you put the PUS outside the main unit ?


----------



## Paul Staples

Xoverman said:


> Did you put the PUS outside the main unit ?


No, not yet.
I have done this with my singxer SU-1 though, (but not the orginal talame that was inside the SU-1). Swapped for Sbooster/BOTW.


----------



## Xoverman

Paul Staples said:


> No, not yet.
> I have done this with my singxer SU-1 though, (but not the orginal talame that was inside the SU-1). Swapped for Sbooster/BOTW.


I olso have the SU-1. Did you notice a difference?  If yes, what's different? Are you using HDMI and which cable?


----------



## Paul Staples (Apr 4, 2019)

Xoverman said:


> I olso have the SU-1. Did you notice a difference?  If yes, what's different? Are you using HDMI and which cable?


blacker background, improved separation between instruments in the stereo field. less noise/veil, greater clarity, less fog, not so stressful on my ears and can listening longer with greater pleasure. I am using the i2s output (hdmi style) with Q.E.D. reference cables. Before that I just had basic cheap hdmi cable and that change too made a noticeable difference with interference and noise. Well worth doing in my case, with my listening environment and my physiology. This is subjective, not objective! No scientific proof or evidence available.


----------



## MartinWT

Thank you @Xoverman for your 'copper wall' idea.  I decided to copy the principle but do it more simply so that I could easily remove it should it not work.  I used thin self-adhesive copper foil shielding (doubled-up) and some more of my cotton-covered copper wire.  Strengthening the foil with card worked a treat and I did each transformer separately, making cutouts for the cables.  I then grounded each shield with the cotton-covered wire to the same grounding tag connecting mains earth to the chassis.

It ain't pretty but I wanted to hear the results and, as I said, it can be easily removed.  You can just see the grounding tag to the right of the right-hand transformer.







The result surprised me as I really didn't expect to hear much if anything at all.  I played the same music as before and in each case the soundstage was better focussed and the background became even quieter (darker, blacker, whatever your prefererence).  There is just a smidgen more ease and flow to the music.

Pretty good for less than a tenner's worth of materials.


----------



## oldearwax

Forgive me if I am picky and/or  wrong.
If the copper is used to block/shield the magnetic field generated by the transformers ...
shouldn't the copper be on the other side ?
In the current configuration, M-field reaches cardboard before hitting copper.
It is also topless, so it does form a Faraday's cage.







The result surprised me as I really didn't expect to hear much if anything at all.  I played the same music as before and in each case the soundstage was better focussed and the background became even quieter (darker, blacker, whatever your prefererence).  There is just a smidgen more ease and flow to the music.

Pretty good for less than a tenner's worth of materials.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Paul Staples

oldearwax said:


> Forgive me if I am picky and/or  wrong.
> If the copper is used to block/shield the magnetic field generated by the transformers ...
> shouldn't the copper be on the other side ?
> In the current configuration, M-field reaches cardboard before hitting copper.
> It is also topless, so it does form a Faraday's cage.



+1


----------



## MartinWT

The cardboard makes no difference to magnetic fields. However, it's really RFI noise that I'm trying to shield. Toroids are already good at keeping magnetic fields from escaping.

It's not topless when the lid is fitted. However, it's sideways radiation towards the circuit board that I'm trying to control.


----------



## Xoverman

oldearwax said:


> Forgive me if I am picky and/or  wrong.
> If the copper is used to block/shield the magnetic field generated by the transformers ...
> shouldn't the copper be on the other side ?
> In the current configuration, M-field reaches cardboard before hitting copper.
> ...


[/QUOTE]
The cardboard is just for stiffening the construction I guess. Good idea great job! But it dosn't block the magnetic field, it blocks the electro part of the electromagnetic field. The Magnetic field can only be blocked with mu-metal. (  just for understanding )
The reason I used a wall is, that I also won'ted to shield the analog electronic form then cable's of the transformers .
The next Project is going to be, putting the transformers in mu-metal cans plus wall.


----------



## MartinWT

Xoverman said:


> The next Project is going to be, putting the transformers in mu-metal cans plus wall.


Good idea.  Let me know if you find the ideal size mumetal can.  It's a bit of a squeeze in there.


----------



## oldearwax

The cardboard is just for stiffening the construction I guess. Good idea great job! But it dosn't block the magnetic field, it blocks the electro part of the electromagnetic field. The Magnetic field can only be blocked with mu-metal. (  just for understanding )
The reason I used a wall is, that I also won'ted to shield the analog electronic form then cable's of the transformers .
The next Project is going to be, putting the transformers in mu-metal cans plus wall.[/QUOTE]

If copper wall/foil and  (low) vibration damping has audio (KHz), shouldn't  the transformers  leakage
be in the low frequency range (as opposed to RF  MHz or GHz) ? Directly speaking.
 Analog electronics operate in KHz range, but the power and ground planes can be affected by RF 
hence indirectly the sound ?

The cables should be twisted to reduce leakage.

Forgive me, I am not trying to win any arguments here. I am trying to understand why and how
the audio frequency is affected. I need  education from wiser persons.


----------



## wersuss

Just another question can or would silver plated transformer change this DAC sound? I found this.  https://kitsunehifi.com/product/flying-ninja-poster/


----------



## mandrake50

oldearwax said:


> The cardboard is just for stiffening the construction I guess. Good idea great job! But it dosn't block the magnetic field, it blocks the electro part of the electromagnetic field. The Magnetic field can only be blocked with mu-metal. (  just for understanding )
> The reason I used a wall is, that I also won'ted to shield the analog electronic form then cable's of the transformers .
> The next Project is going to be, putting the transformers in mu-metal cans plus wall.



If copper wall/foil and  (low) vibration damping has audio (KHz), shouldn't  the transformers  leakage
be in the low frequency range (as opposed to RF  MHz or GHz) ? Directly speaking.
 Analog electronics operate in KHz range, but the power and ground planes can be affected by RF
hence indirectly the sound ?

The cables should be twisted to reduce leakage.

Forgive me, I am not trying to win any arguments here. I am trying to understand why and how
the audio frequency is affected. I need  education from wiser persons.[/QUOTE]

 It really should not make an audible difference. But if after doing it the perception is that it did, what the heck. Looks like a fun project for an OCD person... like me...
He did do a real nice job on the "wall" too.


----------



## Paul Staples

mandrake50 said:


> If copper wall/foil and  (low) vibration damping has audio (KHz), shouldn't  the transformers  leakage
> be in the low frequency range (as opposed to RF  MHz or GHz) ? Directly speaking.
> Analog electronics operate in KHz range, but the power and ground planes can be affected by RF
> hence indirectly the sound ?
> ...



 It really should not make an audible difference. But if after doing it the perception is that it did, what the heck. Looks like a fun project for an OCD person... like me...
He did do a real nice job on the "wall" too.
[/QUOTE]
hi,
...don't you think the manufacturer would have done this already during development if it was significant to the sound quality?


----------



## MartinWT

Every item in the bill of materials requires sourcing, fabrication and assembly, increasing the materials cost and assembly time (=labour).  It's a £1000 DAC, not a £3000 one, and some things have to give.  The LKS is still a bargain in its construction and use of high quality components.  Even the Chinese can't put everything into it.


----------



## Xoverman

MartinWT said:


> Every item in the bill of materials requires sourcing, fabrication and assembly, increasing the materials cost and assembly time (=labour).  It's a £1000 DAC, not a £3000 one, and some things have to give.  The LKS is still a bargain in its construction and use of high quality components.  Even the Chinese can't put everything into it.


I couldn't have said it better. And it gives us room for tweaks.


----------



## Paul Staples

MartinWT said:


> Every item in the bill of materials requires sourcing, fabrication and assembly, increasing the materials cost and assembly time (=labour).  It's a £1000 DAC, not a £3000 one, and some things have to give.  The LKS is still a bargain in its construction and use of high quality components.  Even the Chinese can't put everything into it.



Wish I had a pound for every time I heard this tale! _"Well the manufacturer couldn't afford a bit of paper backed tin foil to shield the transformers, so I did it instead".   _...Really!   ...sorry but I beg to differ on this occasion.


----------



## Xoverman

Paul Staples said:


> Wish I had a pound for every time I heard this tale! _"Well the manufacturer couldn't afford a bit of paper backed tin foil to shield the transformers, so I did it instead".   _...Really!   ...sorry but I beg to differ on this occasion.


Please read it, and ( until you ) understand it.
https://www.lotusgroupusa.com/blog/...n-the-megahertz-range-and-why-does-it-matter#
The you will understand why HF shielding is so important. Even in the audio band.


----------



## Paul Staples

Xoverman said:


> Please read it, and ( until you ) understand it.
> https://www.lotusgroupusa.com/blog/...n-the-megahertz-range-and-why-does-it-matter#
> The you will understand why HF shielding is so important. Even in the audio band.


Very interesting - thank you! However, decades ago I used to play classic guitar, and sometimes with piano, cello and violin; so I know all about octaves and vibrating strings. Your point being?


----------



## wersuss

Anyone here knows why Foobar DSD files plays with white noise sometimes?


----------



## MadRiver

Gosh - this thread has got exceedingly long since my last visit - apologies for butting in like this, but I would like to know whether there is any consensus as to modifications that are regarded as 'essential' - I have a fairly early incarnation of the MH-DA004, with the transistors (I'm assuming they are for the output stage) mounted on the upper surface of the main board - there is a heatsink fitted below these, and I have updated the firmware using a little gizmo Jinbo sent me - I did fabricate a new lid with a temp sensor /controller and 3 speed low noise fan, but this may have been paranoia as everything appears to work perfectly with this switched off - I have only ever used the DAC for red book CD playback, so have never had cause to encounter issues with computer audio / streaming etc - I shall need to offer the DAC for sale in the very near future, and have no wish to saddle the new owner with unforseen operational quirks.... I have very much enjoyed my time with it, and still can't quite believe how they managed to do it for the money, but having 'accidentally' bought my dream DAC, I need to seriously rationalise my hifi collection  - any pointers would be greatly appreciated MH


----------



## Paul Staples

Paul Staples said:


> Very interesting - thank you! However, decades ago I used to play classic guitar, and sometimes with piano, cello and violin; so I know all about octaves and vibrating strings. Your point being?


And, I still think the manufacturer would have "costed" for the copper shield if they felt it important enough, having already invested thousands of dollars in that development they are not simply going to overlook one small detail that could potentially damage long term sales. Please write and ask them if they didn't fit the shield purely on financial grounds?


----------



## Xoverman

Paul Staples said:


> Very interesting - thank you! However, decades ago I used to play classic guitar, and sometimes with piano, cello and violin; so I know all about octaves and vibrating strings. Your point being?


It seems you didn't listen closely to the Video and undedsud the following text.
If there are two frequencys, let's say 1000000Hz and 1001000Hz HF noise, then of course no one can hear that.
But if those two frequencys hit a nonlinear circuit, as for example a DAC or a amplifier then they mix and give 1000Hz.
Imagine that happening with all HF Noise Frequencys for example form the mains and rectifier diodes.
Then there is a lot of mess being mirrored down into the audio band coming from the HF Band.
And if you don't believe it's true, wy don't you try it yourself ? I know that it works, and others here in the forum know it to.
Cheers


----------



## Xoverman

wersuss said:


> Anyone here knows why Foobar DSD files plays with white noise sometimes?


Hi wersuss, I had the same problem when I started with DSD. Your PLL is set to low. With PCM I can play everything with PLL = 1.
But with DSD PLL has to be set to 7 or higher.


----------



## Xoverman

MadRiver said:


> Gosh - this thread has got exceedingly long since my last visit - apologies for butting in like this, but I would like to know whether there is any consensus as to modifications that are regarded as 'essential' - I have a fairly early incarnation of the MH-DA004, with the transistors (I'm assuming they are for the output stage) mounted on the upper surface of the main board - there is a heatsink fitted below these, and I have updated the firmware using a little gizmo Jinbo sent me - I did fabricate a new lid with a temp sensor /controller and 3 speed low noise fan, but this may have been paranoia as everything appears to work perfectly with this switched off - I have only ever used the DAC for red book CD playback, so have never had cause to encounter issues with computer audio / streaming etc - I shall need to offer the DAC for sale in the very near future, and have no wish to saddle the new owner with unforseen operational quirks.... I have very much enjoyed my time with it, and still can't quite believe how they managed to do it for the money, but having 'accidentally' bought my dream DAC, I need to seriously rationalise my hifi collection  - any pointers would be greatly appreciated MH


Please tell us, what is your  accidentally' bought my dream DAC ?


----------



## wersuss

Xoverman said:


> Hi wersuss, I had the same problem when I started with DSD. Your PLL is set to low. With PCM I can play everything with PLL = 1.
> But with DSD PLL has to be set to 7 or higher.



Thank you it actually works.


----------



## MadRiver

Xoverman said:


> Please tell us, what is your  accidentally' bought my dream DAC ?


It's a Modwright Elyse - a rare thing on the 2nd hand market in England - I am a massive fan of his gear (I started out with his modded Perpetual Tech DACs many years ago) - I also use a Modwright LS100 pre which is staggeringly good kit, but there's no way I could ever afford full retail - it may not have the crazy bargain appeal of the LKS, but it is aa superbly voiced and fully realised design - MH


----------



## oldearwax

Xoverman said:


> Your exactly right. The LKS dos have very good cascaded linear power supplies, but it's all about getting the transformer vibration and the electromagnetic field out of of the DAC chassis. One thing to consider, the DAC is placed on dampening feet. If you place  both transformers in 2 new chassis then it makes cence to have the power switch one of the external chassis. Now the downside, you also need pretty thick cable's form the external chassis to the DAC.
> It also makes cence to have the receivers and the first Capacitors in the external chassis. I think "naim" has a DAC like that.
> Back to the problem. If you have thick stiff cable's,  then some of the vibration will be fed back to the DAC through the cable.
> It's all very tricky.



Thank you so much Xoverman. The "copper wall" is very effective.
I copy your idea and cut a "wall" out of 36 gauge thin copper thin. I didn't modify the feet.
The copper sheet is not grounded.
The result: imaging improves plenty, violin and piano sound vivid  ... vocal: I can see the person
standing in the room.

The only down side now is that the transformers are fairly enclosed .. it may be trapping heat.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the copper is shielding RF, it is shielding low frequency E-field (120 Hz) from
the transformer since there are no high frequency switching work done by the transformers. Take a look at this
youtube video:  torodial transformers do leak (at low frequency).


----------



## Whitigir (Apr 11, 2019)

The Transformer and the LKS004 is actually hooked by wires.  You can take out the transformer, extend the wires, and encase the transformer in a wooden box, then run the wires into lks004 as a removable style

Amphenol connectors will be what you want.  This is 15 pins, the 004 probably have 12 pins
Female
Male


----------



## Paul Staples

Xoverman said:


> It seems you didn't listen closely to the Video and undedsud the following text.
> If there are two frequencys, let's say 1000000Hz and 1001000Hz HF noise, then of course no one can hear that.
> But if those two frequencys hit a nonlinear circuit, as for example a DAC or a amplifier then they mix and give 1000Hz.
> Imagine that happening with all HF Noise Frequencys for example form the mains and rectifier diodes.
> ...


I do believe you - I know it's true. But I still don't understand what that has to do with the point I was making! i.e. the cost of a copper wall fitted by the manufacturer, see my above post. #2034


----------



## xiamen

Paul Staples said:


> I do believe you - I know it's true. But I still don't understand what that has to do with the point I was making! i.e. the cost of a copper wall fitted by the manufacturer, see my above post. #2034


I can see your point. If noise from psu makes such a big difference, all dacs should be designed with external psu. But then many new high end dacs still uses internal psu. And lks004 already has a larger case than most which should minimize noise interferences between components. But then I have not tried putting in a copper wall so I dont know. Seems like a simple cheap mod so only way to judge is try for yourself.


----------



## Paul Staples

xiamen said:


> I can see your point. If noise from psu makes such a big difference, all dacs should be designed with external psu. But then many new high end dacs still uses internal psu. And lks004 already has a larger case than most which should minimize noise interferences between components. But then I have not tried putting in a copper wall so I dont know. *Seems like a simple cheap mod* so only way to judge is try for yourself.



Yep! - can't see why LKS (and others!) don't do this cheap mod. from the start? Maybe they don't think it's worth it (i.e. performance gains too small)?


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> Yep! - can't see why LKS (and others!) don't do this cheap mod. from the start? Maybe they don't think it's worth it (i.e. performance gains too small)?



Toroidal main problems is humming and saturation.  When you have none of that, the generated magnetic field is very narrow, just only a little air space and it would be negligible


----------



## Paul Staples

Whitigir said:


> Toroidal main problems is humming and saturation.  When you have none of that, the generated magnetic field is very narrow, just only a little air space and it would be negligible


"magnetic field is narrow", ...so that's why? (no shield)
What can be done about the humming and saturation? (vibration?)...
cheers!


----------



## Whitigir

Paul Staples said:


> "magnetic field is narrow", ...so that's why? (no shield)
> What can be done about the humming and saturation? (vibration?)...
> cheers!


Humming and saturation can be solved if the toroidal is always within it specs and +20% overhead given the time to temperature and load conditions.  There are some instances that it would still hum when different AC cycles are connected, say Japan is 50Hz and Us is 60Hz


----------



## MartinWT

One trick, if you have an adjustable regenerator, is to bring down the mains voltage to run all the toroids in your system optimally. Mine is set to 235V, regardless of input voltage, and everything sounds a lot better with less mechanical noise and less heat output.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 13, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> One trick, if you have an adjustable regenerator, is to bring down the mains voltage to run all the toroids in your system optimally. Mine is set to 235V, regardless of input voltage, and everything sounds a lot better with less mechanical noise and less heat output.



Regenerators help to keep DC out of the AC lines and the better ones keeps any unwanted harmonics out of the 50/60Hz sinewave.

These two are 2 most common reasons that cause toroids to hum.

DC in the AC primary winding is quite bad for toroids, it causes unwanted magnetization of the core lowering the saturation point. This reduces the capacity of the transformer to deliver power.

I run my DAC off isolation transformers which blocks any DC, my AC lines do not have gross harmonic distortion.


----------



## MartinWT

I have incoming THD of about 1.6% and regenerated output of about 0.6% which helps, too.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 13, 2019)

I did an experiment to see if the transformer mods here address the reduction of low frequency leakage from the transformer or if it reduced RF interference pickup.

I used the 3M RF absorbers instead of foil. These are more effective than shielding as it does not need to be grounded and the energy from the RF noise is directly converted to heat.
RF noise and not LF noise is taken out of the picture.




Left transformer supplies the ±15V analog side.
Moving the absorber between the 2 transformers literally changes the sound presentation, the bass became a lot tighter when it was dropped in.

Top end sibilance dropped off with these in place.

The absorbers work by reducing the RF noise coupling between the analog and digital transformers
The secondary windings on toroids are on the outside, this makes toroids susceptible to noise pickup given the wide bandwidth of these transformers.

RF noise suppression is something can improve the performance of this DAC


----------



## Whitigir

That is why I would suggest any power USP unit...or better yet...direct dedicated line toward your main breaker


----------



## MartinWT

Thanks, b0bb, that sounds like a no-brainer. I shall go find these 3M RF absorbers.


----------



## MartinWT

Whitigir said:


> That is why I would suggest any power USP unit...or better yet...direct dedicated line toward your main breaker


I have a 60A dedicated radial which feeds my PS Audio P10 regenerator.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 13, 2019)

Whitigir said:


> That is why I would suggest any power USP unit...or better yet...direct dedicated line toward your main breaker



There are 2 different aspects here
1)Unwanted noise coming in from the powerline
2)Self noise within the DAC itself

Case 1)
Dedicated lines will help especially if the existing living/listening room wiring is shared with the kitchen.

This will not completely solve the powerline harmonic issue, as it is dependent on the incoming AC power, and the load on the power company's distribution network.
On mine the incoming harmonic content can vary depending on the time of the day and the day of the week.
Sometimes my local  power company can redistribute the load by supplementig its own generated power with power bought from outside suppliers and they do an average job of matching the AC frequency.

I have a tracking harmonic filter on my distribution panel, these are becoming hard to get as Emerson has stopped making them, the equivalent is nearly 5X the cost.
https://www.digitaltele.com/pdf/emerson/islatrol_lric_ic_plus.pdf


This is in addition to a dedicated panel, isolation transformers and AC regenerator before power reaches the DAC.

Case 2)
DAC self noise is when the RF noise from the digital side of the DAC finds its way into the analog side.
No amount of AC filtering is able to fix this.

This is where the RF absorbers come in, it converts some of the unwanted RF noise to heat.
Shielding can still  be used at the same time and it makes it job easier.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 13, 2019)

Whitigir said:


> ... say Japan is 50Hz and Us is 60Hz



A bit of OT trivia,
Western Japan is 60Hz
Eastern Japan is  50Hz

Divide is roughly in the middle,west of Tokyo





https://www.npr.org/2011/03/24/134828205/a-country-divided-japans-electric-bottleneck
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2011/07/19/reference/japans-incompatible-power-grids/


----------



## Lennym

Thank you Xoverman and MartinWT for your experiments in copper.  I sent for some 24 ga. copper sheeting and set up sort of a wall using two pieces.  Each piece runs from between the transformers, one curled around to the front of the unit one to the back.  Cutouts in each sheet so they bypass heat sinks and wires.  I taped them up so they do no harm to wires or anything else.  Very simple to do but, of course, it doesn't have the elegance of Xoverman's wall.  No grounding.

I find the results stunning.  It makes the kind of changes a committed audiophile would pay very good money for.  Mostly in spatial details: more activity beyond the speakers, deeper soundstage, and especially better focus, less smearing.  Pinpoint locations.  Most of my listening is to classical and I spent a couple of days listening to very familiar material before posting this.

Never did such an easy tweak with this level of benefits.

If LKS reads this board, and I have to suppose that they do, shielding the PS should be part of the planning for the 005.  A pity if it's not.


----------



## littlexx26

b0bb said:


> I did an experiment to see if the transformer mods here address the reduction of low frequency leakage from the transformer or if it reduced RF interference pickup.
> 
> I used the 3M RF absorbers instead of foil. These are more effective than shielding as it does not need to be grounded and the energy from the RF noise is directly converted to heat.
> RF noise and not LF noise is taken out of the picture.
> ...



did 3M specify the range of frequency this sheet absorbs?


----------



## b0bb

littlexx26 said:


> did 3M specify the range of frequency this sheet absorbs?


Yes. Lookup AB5100S datasheet for more info.

That was what I had on hand at that time, I have since added couple of Fair-Rite 38M6050AA0606 RF absorber sheets.
The absorption range starts around 5MHz vs 300MHz on the AB5100.

RF noise on the LKS is on the lower end of the RF spectrum and the Fair-Rite brought a larger audible improvements in the areas of soundstaging, depth and overall presentation in the same areas as mentioned in the posts for myself and others,

With Fair-Rite + 3M AB5100 I have wideband absorption from 5MHz to 5GHz so I use both sheets together.

Mouser sells the Fair-Rite sheets for about 16USD.


----------



## MartinWT

I ordered a Laird ferrite sheet.  Absorption starts around 13MHz.  It didn't cost much so we shall see.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 14, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> I ordered a Laird ferrite sheet.  Absorption starts around 13MHz.  It didn't cost much so we shall see.



The start of the attenuation band should ideally be below the frequency of the sampling bit clock or BCLK.

On 44k/16 this is 1.5MHz.

I run everything at DSD512 with a clock of 22-24MHz, the 5MHz start of the Fair-rite sheets meet this requirement.

On 44k the attenuation of the absorbers should be start below 1MHz.

As you already have a copper foil sleeve around the transformers, make a grounding strap between the sleeve and the chassis, this will multiply its effectiveness.

If the shield is not properly grounded it can re-radiate the unwanted noise.


----------



## MartinWT

Yes, I thought I'd put the ferrite sheet between the copper foil shields, adding to their effectiveness.  They are indeed grounded.


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> Yes, I thought I'd put the ferrite sheet between the copper foil shields, adding to their effectiveness.  They are indeed grounded.



The copper foil shield should eliminate most if not all of the unwanted coupling between the 2 transformers.

It would be interesting to see if the ferrite sheets will make a difference in this case.


----------



## Paul Staples

remember @Whitigir said: _"Toroidal main problems is humming and saturation. When you have none of that, the generated magnetic field is very narrow, just only a little air space and it would be *negligible".
*_
Suggesting all of "the above" (barrier treatment) is un-necessary?


----------



## b0bb (Apr 14, 2019)

Paul Staples said:


> remember @Whitigir said: _"Toroidal main problems is humming and saturation. When you have none of that, the generated magnetic field is very narrow, just only a little air space and it would be *negligible".*_



This is still true however, leakage is _*not *_from the toroid core but is coming from the unterminated windings.

LKS uses the same type of  transformer for the analog and digital section, it has 2x 15VAC  and 3x 6.5VAC windings

On the digital transformer one or two of the 6.5VAC windings supply power to the connected load, the rest is unused and the windings are not terminated.

Photo shows the 2 x 15VAC yellow-white windings that are not connected to anything


RF noise from the digital side enters the 6.5VAC windings and is then stepped by the  unterminated 15VAC windings and radiated out into the case, the noise amplitude increases by 2.3 x
This is the unwanted miniature radio noise transmitter inside the DAC, to make matters worse the wires are almost parallel.

Putting a copper shield around the transformer like @Xoverman and @MartinWT did, blocks this leakage from reaching the analog transformer and the analog sections of the DAC.


----------



## mandrake50

Xoverman said:


> Please read it, and ( until you ) understand it.
> https://www.lotusgroupusa.com/blog/...n-the-megahertz-range-and-why-does-it-matter#
> The you will understand why HF shielding is so important. Even in the audio band.


It seems like a reasonable bit of reasoning with now proof. Neither that other well designed circuits are affected (lots of isolation and filtering in the device to begin with), nor that any of the frequencies actually beat in a way to generated audible changes in the well filtered device. 
As I said, good job on the wall and transformer shielding. I don't see me doing it until I see changes in the output based on these hobby fixes, measured.
I see a problem in any claims that the changes made a difference in "sound stage" or "black background" when no direct comparison is possible. No way I would be able to make statements about low level, nuanced.qualitative changes when it had been hours or days since the baseline device was heard.
In any case,_  I really do think it was worthwhile for you because you did it and , and you "feel" that is was worthwhile._


----------



## mandrake50

b0bb said:


> This is still true however, leakage is _*not *_from the toroid core but is coming from the unterminated windings.
> 
> LKS uses the same type of  transformer for the analog and digital section, it has 2x 15VAC  and 3x 6.5VAC windings
> 
> ...



Have you measured the RF. Your guess at what is going on makes sense, but if it is not really radiating something measurable (RF can be measured at very low levels) and of a frequency that matters, then shielding will make no difference.
As an engineer of lots of years, I can imagine scenarios that could occur, but spending money and time to reduce or eliminate those scenarios, will only occur if I can prove that doing that will improve something.
So if someone can measure this RF, and it is significant, I am all in. Until then it seems to much in the realm of fantasy for me to try to address a problem that may well not exist.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 14, 2019)

mandrake50 said:


> Have you measured the RF. Your guess at what is going on makes sense, but if it is not really radiating something measurable (RF can be measured at very low levels) and of a frequency that matters, then shielding will make no difference.
> As an engineer of lots of years, I can imagine scenarios that could occur, but spending money and time to reduce or eliminate those scenarios, will only occur if I can prove that doing that will improve something.
> So if someone can measure this RF, and it is significant, I am all in. Until then it seems to much in the realm of fantasy for me to try to address a problem that may well not exist.



Measuring the radiated RF is the next step.

The RF absorbers were merely a tool to see if the effect others reported can be heard on my DAC.
I was not expecting it to make any difference but it did.

Part of the pleasure of doing it on a hobby basis is that I am free to pursue whatever idea that catches my fancy.
I will eventually figure out a method of getting the effect measured but it does not stop me for trying the idea out.
There is no critical need to get an exact measurement, unlike the situation where the power dissipation of the I/V resistor had to be determined.


When designing for a commercial product you must have measurements to justify the next stage of the effort.
For me work stays at work as is obsessing over every last measurement.


----------



## oldearwax

b0bb said:


> This is still true however, leakage is _*not *_from the toroid core but is coming from the unterminated windings.
> 
> LKS uses the same type of  transformer for the analog and digital section, it has 2x 15VAC  and 3x 6.5VAC windings
> 
> ...




According to the
last figure of the toroidal transformer page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toroidal_inductors_and_transformers

The B-field is inside the donut, but there are external E-fields.

I would *think* these are the more dominant contaminant if the E-field
lands on the Analog board.
E-field terminates on matters,
so it may explain why a copper barrier improves the sound.

RF radiates from  traces if they are not properly terminated or
not over the ground plane. I would like to think a PCB place and route
by CAD tool should minimize that. But I could be wrong.


----------



## b0bb

oldearwax said:


> According to the
> last figure of the toroidal transformer page:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toroidal_inductors_and_transformers
> ...



LKS uses JFets as the input long-tailed pair for its discrete opamps. 
Stray E-fields will affect and reduce its performance.

LKS did a reasonable job with ground planes, less so with providing adequate RF bypass on the supplementary digital supplies. This secondary digital system powers the microcontroller, display and USB isolator with the AC coming from the transformer shown in my picture.

LKS uses conventional caps in the post regulator caps where the LM317 is used.
A cap with very low ESR at RF frequencies would have helped to keep the self generated RF noise down
However the LM317 will go unstable if the low ESR cap is used as the output filter.

I replaced the 317 when I modded the LKS003 and used a more modern regulator that works with low ESR caps.
I also rebuilt the enhanced USB interface to use low ESR polymer caps throughout, in this case all the primary filter caps were changed to low ESR.

Given what I have observed to date, I am thinking of bringing over this set of mods to the LKS004.

This goes some of the way toward nipping the RF self noise at the source, LKS did a great job on the primary digital supplies for the 9038s but dropped ball on the secondary systems, the LKS004 used the lower spec LM317 compared to the LT317 in the previous generation LKS003.

The 003 was never as sensitive to RF noise as the the 004 given the better PSRR performance of the LT317. Not having JFET input also helped the 003, I used the Ticha994 opamps with regular BJT inputs on the 003.


----------



## Paul Staples

b0bb said:


> This is still true however, leakage is _*not *_from the toroid core but is coming from the unterminated windings.
> 
> LKS uses the same type of  transformer for the analog and digital section, it has 2x 15VAC  and 3x 6.5VAC windings
> 
> ...


many thanks!


----------



## Xoverman

mandrake50 said:


> Have you measured the RF. Your guess at what is going on makes sense, but if it is not really radiating something measurable (RF can be measured at very low levels) and of a frequency that matters, then shielding will make no difference.
> As an engineer of lots of years, I can imagine scenarios that could occur, but spending money and time to reduce or eliminate those scenarios, will only occur if I can prove that doing that will improve something.
> So if someone can measure this RF, and it is significant, I am all in. Until then it seems to much in the realm of fantasy for me to try to address a problem that may well not exist.


Whel I actually did measure the HF with a special coil adapter for my Tektronix scope. That's how I found out where the radiation came from.
And b0bb is right, most HF radiation comes form the front Digital transformer. But there is even higher from a nother source that nobody thot of.
The Display !!! I couldn't believe how much it's radiating. That's going to be my next Project.
Oh by the way, I build a second copper wall between the two transformers, interestingly it had no sonic impact .
As I mentioned before, I also am an design engineer for electronics. I used to design amplifier with an amplification of 1000000
To measure ions in mass spectrometry. But still I tried to listen with my ears, not my eyes
Cheers


----------



## MartinWT

I thought of the display but have no means of measuring EMI.  That type of fluorescent display is notorious for noise emission.  Think I'll be experimenting with shielding that, too.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Whel I actually did measure the HF with a special coil adapter for my Tektronix scope. That's how I found out where the radiation came from.
> And b0bb is right, most HF radiation comes form the front Digital transformer. But there is even higher from a nother source that nobody thot of.
> The Display !!! I couldn't believe how much it's radiating. That's going to be my next Project.
> Oh by the way, I build a second copper wall between the two transformers, interestingly it had no sonic impact .
> ...



Was the VFD display turned on when you were making the measurements?
The VFD display can be turned off from the remote control

Great that you did the measurement, saved me the trouble of making the EMC probe.


----------



## Whitigir

Yeah, the display has pretty high RF....the thing that plagued many other DAPs


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> Left transformer supplies the ±15V analog side.
> Moving the absorber between the 2 transformers literally changes the sound presentation, the bass became a lot tighter when it was dropped in.


I tried this with a piece of Laird ferrite EMI shield tonight, putting it between the two transformers and sticking it to the copper shield around the digital toroid.
I heard an improvement in the treble, which cleaned up and became a little more detailed.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> Was the VFD display turned on when you were making the measurements?
> The VFD display can be turned off from the remote control
> 
> Great that you did the measurement, saved me the trouble of making the EMC probe.


Hi, as i understand resistors can be soldered in any way?


----------



## MartinWT

wersuss said:


> Hi, as i understand resistors can be soldered in any way?


Do you mean either way round? Yes, resistors have no direction.
I always soldered them all in one direction so that the colour codes could be easily read.


----------



## wersuss (Apr 24, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> Do you mean either way round? Yes, resistors have no direction.
> I always soldered them all in one direction so that the colour codes could be easily read.



Yes i already swapped resistors to Texas Components ones thanks to b0bb suggestion, works just fine.


----------



## Xoverman

Today I had the chance to use a Spectrum analyser to measure the 004.
Behind the Display:


----------



## Xoverman

At the analog rectifier :


----------



## Xoverman

At the digital transformer:


----------



## MartinWT

Excellent information.  So the display is the baddie!  Does all that noise go away if you turn off the display at the remote?  It's what I do now.


----------



## MartinWT

MartinWT said:


> I tried this with a piece of Laird ferrite EMI shield tonight, putting it between the two transformers and sticking it to the copper shield around the digital toroid.
> I heard an improvement in the treble, which cleaned up and became a little more detailed.


I applied another larger piece of Laird ferrite shield further around the digital toroid to stop it transmitting to the circuit board.  This has had a further beneficial effect.


----------



## wersuss

MartinWT said:


> I applied another larger piece of Laird ferrite shield further around the digital toroid to stop it transmitting to the circuit board.  This has had a further beneficial effect.


How does it looks like? And where you bought Laird ferrite shield?


----------



## MartinWT

wersuss said:


> How does it looks like? And where you bought Laird ferrite shield?


It's thin, black and self-adhesive, wrapped around the copper shield (which is itself wrapped around the toroid) and earthed by being in contact with the copper shield.
I bought the small pieces (60 x 60mm and then another 120 x 60mm) from eBay for a few Pounds.
Further listening convinces me that it works well.  Making a cut-out for the transformer cables gave me a small spare piece which I stuck on the crystal to give it some shielding from above.


----------



## VerloK (May 11, 2019)

Error*


----------



## Xoverman

Hello Forum, can anybody tell me what the big black and the red capacitors are for ?


----------



## Xoverman

Hey , b0bb what's so special about the  Corning COW glass capacitors?


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Hello Forum, can anybody tell me what the big black and the red capacitors are for ?



The red one is the output filtering for the 1.2V supply to the DAC
The black one is the DC bypass for the common mode DAC reference voltage


These are 2 areas for potential mods

1)
The red cap is a high value WIMA metallized polyester, typically 4.7uF or 10uF, this is quite an old component. The dissipation factor is actually worse than some of the modern MLCC caps. I measured this family of caps about 2 years ago

Dissipation factor (DF) is the ratio of ESR and capacitive reactance.
More info here:
https://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/pdf/Papers/impendance_dissipation_factor_ESR.pdf

DF is dependent on frequency, MLCC caps start to shine above 1MHz, below 1MHz metallized plastic types do better.

The expected operating range for  the component in this PSU role on the LKS is DC-200MHz
The regulator stops working above 20-50MHz and the cap has to carry the on the work for the rest of the way.
The 1.2V powers the DS modulator in the DAC .

I did something similar for the internal Amanero USB interface, to get good DF over the operating range, I used as sandwich of MLCC + Plastic. The plastic cap is a metallized acrylic from Rubycon, MLCC is XR7 MLLCC from TDK.

The wide versions of the caps chosen to minimize cap self inductance
MLCC on bottom left, plastic cap on right.
Top is the sandwich.
 

2)
The DC leakage of a cap is proportional to its physical size. 
The oversize cap is a bit of a mixed bag in this regard

On the LKS, the DAC DC common offset reference is a resistive voltage divider coming off the 3.3V line, the lower leg of the divider is bypassed by this cap, and it is relatively high impedance, several kilo-ohms.
On the LKS003 it was an adjustable trimmer, on the LKS004 is a fixed divider.

The DC leakage current of several uA will cause DC offset errors multiplied by the gain from the transconductance of the I/V converter.

The problem with aluminum electrolytics is that this leakage is temp dependent, increasing with temperature.
The LKS DC level can drift with temperature due to this as it has no DC blocking caps. 
The 004 is a little better than the 003 in this regard.

On the LKS003 I ended going with solid tantalums which have 10x less leakage. This improved bass extension quite a bit and removed another element needing proper warm up.

Tantalum is the big yellow blob in the background, the 10k DC trimmer part resistive divider in the foreground.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Hey , b0bb what's so special about the  Corning COW glass capacitors?



The DF of the glass caps at high frequency is about the lowest you can get.

I used them in the DC bypass role because of this, they are better than MLCC at frequencies above 10MHz


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> The red one is the output filtering for the 1.2V supply to the DAC
> The black one is the DC bypass for the common mode DAC reference voltage
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, what an explanation, I can't believe that you don't have a schematic of the DAC .
I had to read the post 2x to catch everything
So did you exchange the big cap agenst a tantal cap in the 004?
With all my mods I have the problem that soundstage and depths get better and better, but high frequencys and transients become lush.
But only because the bass notes become stronger and cleaner. 
I think LKS had a problem with bass, so they taimd (lowered ) midds and high frequencys somehow.
Next step for me seems to be to exchange the Nichicon cap's agenst Panasonic Cap's. Or maybe even tantal.
I hope that helps.
Cheers


----------



## b0bb (May 13, 2019)

Xoverman said:


> Wow, what an explanation, I can't believe that you don't have a schematic of the DAC .
> I had to read the post 2x to catch everything
> So did you exchange the big cap agenst a tantal cap in the 004?
> With all my mods I have the problem that soundstage and depths get better and better, but high frequencys and transients become lush.
> ...


LKS has not published the schematic as far as I am aware.
Partial schematics can be found on the 003 thread.

LKS has not changed the topology much, that is, DAC differential current outputs are converted by a pair of virtual earth I/V converters.
This is also the first stage active analog filter followed by a second order passive filter for the balanced output.
The unbalanced outputs are converted by an opamp which doubles duty as the final stage analog filter for the unbalanced outputs.
004 unbalanced stage is different from the 003
The 003 uses 2 opamps, the 004 uses a single opamp to keep the cost down

I agree with your sentiment that LKS is deliberately "voicing" the 004, some of the effort like the oversized DC bypass cap is a bit  of a hack.
If you like the Nichicon sound, consider replacing the FG or MUSE caps  with higher temp tolerance versions like the KA series.

I am considering replacing the big red WIMA with the MLCC/Acrylic sandwich combo cap.

The Corning CGW glass caps as power supply bypass is what I use to tame the harsh topend
on the 003 and will do likewise for the 004.

Another option is to convert all material  to DSD256 or DSD512.
If you have changed the XO to the CCHD950x, the 004 is more than capable of handling DSD512
This bypasses the crappy internal PCM to SDM conversion in the DAC, which is a major contributor to some of the effects you mentioned.


----------



## Xoverman

Did I understand it right, exchanging the Nichicon's agenst Panasonic Caps brings back more heights and Transients ?
I did switch to the CCHD950x about 4 months ago.


----------



## littlexx26

Xoverman said:


> Did I understand it right, exchanging the Nichicon's agenst Panasonic Caps brings back more heights and Transients ?
> I did switch to the CCHD950x about 4 months ago.


I experienced this sonic character before. Initially I thought it was 004 problems. After I changed ic, pc sc, no more such adverse effects. I believe what 004 sounds is neutral. Both low and high extensions are just right.


----------



## b0bb (May 13, 2019)

Xoverman said:


> Did I understand it right, exchanging the Nichicon's agenst Panasonic Caps brings back more heights and Transients ?
> I did switch to the CCHD950x about 4 months ago.



The Panasonic FM I mentioned in previous posts is a tonally neutral cap, it also depends on which Nichicon LKS used in your DAC.
Both the MUSE and FineGold (FG) creates a much fatter midrange, going to the FM the sound is less lush but more defined.

If the FM is properly bypassed  with a MLCC or Corning CGW the excessive highs will generally be suppressed.
You could also try the Panasonic FC, it is older and becoming hard to find but it gives a mellower sound without losing too much of the transient performance.

That characteristic you described previously is intrinsic in Sabre DACS sometimes referred to as the "Sabre Glare".
LKS went overboard trying to get rid of in the 004.


----------



## XVampireX (May 14, 2019)

So here's a good question which I don't think anyone asked, but I'm using Windows 10 and having trouble getting the Amanero drivers to work properly, I'm getting sound and PCM mostly works fine, when going to DSD, it just doesn't work, the device is supposed to support DSD256+ and at some point in time it actually worked, though I have that (colored) noise drops every few seconds, sometimes it stabilizes...
So I've been listening to mostly PCM nowadays, but I'm feeling like I'm missing some and maybe something is wrong with the device or whatever.
I've installed the latest drivers.
I have a well up to date computer.
Any advice will be welcome 

Edit: Increased PDLL to 8 as recommened seems to be ok... like, things are very random, it works great now... hmmm... still, what difference does that PDLL make? I mean is it important to be in lower numbers than higher?


----------



## xiamen

XVampireX said:


> So here's a good question which I don't think anyone asked, but I'm using Windows 10 and having trouble getting the Amanero drivers to work properly, I'm getting sound and PCM mostly works fine, when going to DSD, it just doesn't work, the device is supposed to support DSD256+ and at some point in time it actually worked, though I have that (colored) noise drops every few seconds, sometimes it stabilizes...
> So I've been listening to mostly PCM nowadays, but I'm feeling like I'm missing some and maybe something is wrong with the device or whatever.
> I've installed the latest drivers.
> I have a well up to date computer.
> ...


It's to do with jitter rejection. The lower the DPLL number, the more aggressive the dac rejects source jitter. The most common belief is the more rejection the better. Personally, I think the better the source (e.g. your windows pc uses linear power supply, fanless case etc.), the less you need the dac to reject jitter so vigorously. I don't really know but I feel  it may even be counter productive. I suppose you can listen and decide for yourself. Turn the dpll from 8 to say 10, and see if you can hear the difference. BTW, I remember Jinbo at LKS recommend DPLL level at 10.


----------



## Forgisound

I hear the difference.  
With lower DPLL sound clearer, higher DPLL yields more blur. 
It is with me on all PCM recordings DPLL at 1 and with DSD recordings at 7.
I think, that's very good.


----------



## Xoverman

Hi everyone, I posted this question to Shenzhenaudio. Let's see what happens ☺
Hi, thank you for this wonderful DAC. I bought this DAC two years ago, and I am very happy with it. There is just one thing that bothers me. The DAC has the wonderful possibility too adjust the PLL for the ess9038. I can clearly hear a differenz when I use higher PLL numbers. So I always use PLL 1. But when I play back DSD I have to change the PLL to 7 or higher. So if I play mixed music, DSD and PCM from a playlist, I have to keep the PLL on 7 or 8. That's ok for DSD but degrades PCM just a little bit. So hear is my wish: please have two PLL preesets in the next firmware update. One for PCM and one for DSD.


----------



## VerloK (May 17, 2019)

Hello, does anyone know wich 
resistors
this is?


Regards


----------



## tracer5

Just another system option:
Volumio on Tinkerboard S
Gustard U16
LKS 004
Kef R500 speakers

The Gustard U16 addition provides IIS-H input to the LKS004 from the Tinkerboard-S USB feeding the Gustard U16 to bypass the Armanero Technologies USB to I2S adapter. The Amanero Adapter Module supports sample rates of 44.1 Khz to 384 Khz 32 Bit and Native DSD of DSD64,DSD128 - On Windows DSD256,DSD512 with a driver.
The Gustard U16 uses two US ACCUSILICON AS318-B ultra low phase noise crystals with RMS jitter as low as 88 femtoseconds within the 10Hz-1MHz band.

There is a conspicuous improvement in both audio performance and capabilities as PCM signals are excellent at a BW setting on the LKS004 of BW01. In addition, DSD from the Volumio linux of the Tinkerboard S is easily handled at DSD256 with BW set at BW07.

In no way does this setup benefit from LKS004 Mods, except that the AccuSilicon clocks have very low jitter.


----------



## microcare

*How to make IIS-hdmi (I2S) cable to connect Soundaware D280 digital transport to LKS 004 DAC:*


----------



## xiamen

microcare said:


> *How to make IIS-hdmi (I2S) cable to connect Soundaware D280 digital transport to LKS 004 DAC:*


The digital transport has to have iis/hdmi output. Dont think d280 has one. You have to go via usb/i2s bridge. Direct cable wont do


----------



## b0bb

VerloK said:


> Hello, does anyone know wich
> resistors
> this is?
> 
> ...


This is part of the current limiting/monitoring part of the regulator that has burnt out, you should take steps to check for hidden damage to the discrete opamps.
Contact LKS for further help.


----------



## b0bb

microcare said:


> *How to make IIS-hdmi (I2S) cable to connect Soundaware D280 digital transport to LKS 004 DAC:*



Both Soundaware and LKS have the HDMI I2S pinouts documented in the product manuals, check that first.

If you are using PCM it should mostly work with a premade HDMI cable. I use a 1ft 4K certified HDMI cable from Monoprice.
LKS DSD signalling is a little bit odd compared to the rest of the products out there and things can go wrong here.

Soundaware has a rep that posts here, I think it is useful to run the question by them.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sou...d-ripper-cd-one-official-thread.879949/page-6


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> I use a 1ft 4K certified HDMI cable from Monoprice.


I've tried a few.  By far the best has been my current Blue Jeans FE series bonded-pair HDMI cable.


----------



## VerloK

b0bb said:


> This is part of the current limiting/monitoring part of the regulator that has burnt out, you should take steps to check for hidden damage to the discrete opamps.
> Contact LKS for further help.



No chance to Repair it by switching the Resistor?

regards


----------



## b0bb

VerloK said:


> No chance to Repair it by switching the Resistor?
> 
> regards


This one thing to check with LKS.


----------



## VerloK

www.mu-sound.com ?


----------



## VerloK

Can anyone give me a guide to remove the board from the Chassis?
Do I need to remove the USB from the "main"board? 

Regards


----------



## Paul Staples

VerloK said:


> Can anyone give me a guide to remove the board from the Chassis?
> Do I need to remove the USB from the "main"board?
> 
> Regards



you need to remove the top case panel and the REAR panel too!


----------



## Main Source (Jun 3, 2019)

I recently upgraded the linear psu in my lks and am pleased with the results. I got the idea from someone on this forum and it is appreciated, this DAC is fed by an IFI Imicro iusb3.0 and I galvanic 3.0 from my PC with audioquest carbon cables. The feeling you get when listening is almost like a drug, I also own smsl dacs, ifi iusb black label and a oppo 203 , nothing can touch the lks. Its going straight to a marantz mm7025 2 channel amp using xlr cables to the Bowers wilkins 705s2's and the rca unbalanced are going to a pair of SVS SB2000 subs. After I dropped the pre amp and just used the lks the SQ jumped through the roof. The I galvanic is awesome as well, surprisingly . When friends come over they get this gitty look like its candy to there ears, im still not used to it after a year!!


----------



## MartinWT

I do agree with you, there is little to touch the LKS. In my case the clock has been changed and the PSU supplying the clock has been breathed on. With the right XLR cables (Coherent), it's incredibly detailed and forms a huge soundstage without brightness. I did try feeding my Belles power amp directly but it sounded a little lightweight so it runs through my Pass preamp.

It benefits from good isolation, in my case Black Ravioli Big Pads.


----------



## Monolithic (Jun 4, 2019)

Edited:

New Amanero firmware 2006be10 and *CPLD_1081_DSDSWAPPED* available for DSD playback.  I can confirm that the Amanero board now works with Linux and Roon for native DSD512.

Firmware:
https://amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm

Discussion on GitHub (scroll to bottom):
https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd/issues/12


----------



## aggielaw

Friends,

I've followed this thread for many months now, and have enjoyed it immensely.  Unfortunately, my LKS does not permit clock change.  My only complaint with the LKS is that I get listener fatigue.  Equalization in roon does not help this, which I believe means the issue is not frequency response ("brightness") but rather the hard leading edges of notes or perhaps the general timbre of the unit.  I have played with the filters and DPLL to no avail, and while not upsampling delays onset of fatigue, it does not cure it.  

Can someone distill for me what mods will most likely cure the listener fatigue I suffer with the LKS?  I have used multiple streamers, and none have prevented fatigue, and I've taken the LKS to others' homes and found the same, so there is no question the fatigue is caused by the LKS.

Thanks for your help!

HC


----------



## Lennym (Jun 4, 2019)

aggielaw said:


> Friends,
> 
> I've followed this thread for many months now, and have enjoyed it immensely.  Unfortunately, my LKS does not permit clock change.  My only complaint with the LKS is that I get listener fatigue.  Equalization in roon does not help this, which I believe means the issue is not frequency response ("brightness") but rather the hard leading edges of notes or perhaps the general timbre of the unit.  I have played with the filters and DPLL to no avail, and while not upsampling delays onset of fatigue, it does not cure it.
> 
> ...



Interesting post which you may have addressed to the wrong audience, since all here seem to be enjoying their LKSs, I think.

You say you have tried all the filters and none of them improves the SQ for you.  You say you have definitively narrowed the problem down to the LKS itself.  But you have told us nothing about your audio set-up: other electronics, speakers, earphones, etc.  Some people looking for better sound have tried a number of devices that fit between their data and the DAC.  There are too many to name, and some have been used in multiple tandems.  Many of them can be bought on a try and return basis.

You have also not told us if you have had success, or at least lack of listener fatigue, with any other DAC.  Do you listen to LPs?

So I can think of but 2 solutions:
1. Some times issues like the one you put forward are solved by putting tubes in the system where there were none.  So feeding your LKS into a tube preamp might provide an acceptable sound.
2. It might be time to give up on the LKS and look for a DAC with a different configuration, like a ladder DAC, or one with a different DAC chip than the one from the ESS family.

All of this assumes that your LKS is working to spec.  Before giving up on it, you might be able to remove the board and have the factory check it out.

The only other thing I would add is that putting a copper barrier between the transformers and the circuit resulted in a clear improvement.


----------



## aggielaw

Lenny,
Thanks for your note.  Before I went to a streamer/DAC solution I owned, in succession, the following CD players: Cary 303/300, Ayon CD-2, Modwright Oppo 95, Modwright Oppo 105.  All were tube output stages, except the 303/300, which I preferred with the SS output stage.  I did not have an issue with fatigue with any of these regardless of what tubes I used.  With tubes, I prefer Telefunken of some of the new, "honest" tubes as opposed to, say, NOS Mullards or Black Treasures.  

However, the leap to an all-SS system isn't the issue.  I've listened to many other DACs, some in my own system, and never had an issue.  At least one was Sabre-powered: the Matrix Mini-Pro.  Never had any fatigue before the LKS.

The rest of my system has not changed in more than a decade: SMc Audio VRE-1C preamp --> SMc Audio fully-modded DNA-125 ---> Ridge Street Audio Sason speakers.  I also have an analog rig consisting of a Clearaudio Performance DC feeding a Rogue Triton phono pre.  No listener fatigue there, either.

I nearly purchased a Benchmark DAC 3 HGC instead of the LKS.  The Benchmark uses the Sabre 9028Pro, I believe.  It sounds great, but not as detailed as the LKS.  I've spent an hour nonstop with the Benchmark and had no fatigue.  I've had reps from several companies tell me the Sabre chips get a "bad rap" unfairly because the implementation is at least as important to final SQ as the chips themselves, though a designer certainly starts with a certain sonic character based on the chip he selects.  This is why I think there are likely mods to the LKS that will make it slightly less "sharp" without sacrificing detail, which will solve my only problem with it.

Lastly, I've had the LKS for a year and a half now, so I wouldn't say I'm unhappy with it, but rather that it isn't exactly as I'd like in its current state.

I read the copper barrier to isolate the transformer with great interest, and it looks like something even a novice like me can perform.  I believe I will try that as soon as I can.

Thanks!
HC


----------



## Lennym

aggielaw said:


> I read the copper barrier to isolate the transformer with great interest, and it looks like something even a novice like me can perform.  I believe I will try that as soon as I can.


Look for my post on the subject.  I did it as simply as possible and wrapped the copper with duct tape to avoid any possible shorts--I took no chances.  Not as elegant as some other solutions, but it worked.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 4, 2019)

aggielaw said:


> Friends,
> 
> I've followed this thread for many months now, and have enjoyed it immensely.  Unfortunately, my LKS does not permit clock change.  My only complaint with the LKS is that I get listener fatigue.  Equalization in roon does not help this, which I believe means the issue is not frequency response ("brightness") but rather the hard leading edges of notes or perhaps the general timbre of the unit.  I have played with the filters and DPLL to no avail, and while not upsampling delays onset of fatigue, it does not cure it.
> 
> ...



Changing the clock to the CHD-950X is one of simpler the mods to do.
It takes away the hard edge you described.

More importantly it sets the stage to get good performance for upconvertion to DSD
Roon does a great job of PCM->DSD512, as does HQPlayer

Clean up the RF junk around the DAC with the RF screens and RF absorbers described in this thread.
Optional if you use SPDIF or the Amanero, mandatory if you use noisy I2S devices like the Singxer SU-1
(Singxer did not pay enough attention to keeping the RF noise down and it drove my LKS004 nuts)

The 3 steps above turned the LKS004 to the most analog sounding system minus the problems, I have not had listener fatigue issues since doing that.

My Lionel Richie albums from his early work in the 80's were simply un-listenable on the stock 004 due to  fatigue.
With the above mentioned mods, it  was the very first time the digital versions  sounded like the LPs I bought years ago.

Is there a specific reason why you  said your LKS precludes a clock change ?
(Post a photo on your DAC internals if that will help)


----------



## aggielaw

b0bb said:


> Changing the clock to the CHD-950X is one of simpler the mods to do.
> It takes away the hard edge you described.
> 
> More importantly it sets the stage to get good performance for upconvertion to DSD
> ...



Apparently I don't have the 1A regulator required for the clock change; see my discussion with Whitigr last year in same thread: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...es-double-impact.840938/page-88#post-14480658.

As it happens, I'm using a Sonore ultradigital to convert USB ot i2S between my SOtM "trifecta" and the LKS, so I will order some copper and build a shield between the transformers and the pcm boards right away as you and Lenny have recommended.  Is there a minimum thickness required for the copper to achieve its maximum effectiveness?

Many thanks!


----------



## b0bb (Jun 4, 2019)

aggielaw said:


> Apparently I don't have the 1A regulator required for the clock change; see my discussion with Whitigr last year in same thread: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...es-double-impact.840938/page-88#post-14480658.
> 
> As it happens, I'm using a Sonore ultradigital to convert USB ot i2S between my SOtM "trifecta" and the LKS, so I will order some copper and build a shield between the transformers and the pcm boards right away as you and Lenny have recommended.  Is there a minimum thickness required for the copper to achieve its maximum effectiveness?
> 
> Many thanks!


You _*do not*_ need the 1A regulator for the 950X, it takes about 50mA.

The 1A regulator is  required for the XO with integrated crystal oven like the Abracon @Whitigir used.
Those are quite power hungry.


----------



## aggielaw

That is excellent news!  I'll order one and try to get it installed a couple weekends from now.  Very excited to hear what these two mods will do!


----------



## b0bb (Jun 4, 2019)

HQPlayer is quite a computational hog.

Below is HQPlayer running the poly-sinc-xtr filter, ASDM7 DS modulator and upconverting 96k PCM to DSD256 with Nvidia CUDA GPGPU offload

It eats 70% of the GTX1080's computational processing capability
.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 4, 2019)

Monolithic said:


> New Amanero firmware 2006be10 and CPLD_1081 available for DSD playback.  I can confirm that the Amanero board now works with Linux and Roon for native DSD512.
> 
> Firmware:
> https://amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm
> ...


Enhanced USB Interface on the LKS uses *CPLD_1081_DSDSWAPPED*

Below are the settings I used


Firmware 2000be10 is a bit of a mixed bag on the 004, feels like a work in progress.

I would wait a few more weeks to see if Amanero makes a new production release.
2006be10 is a beta release.

Getting to the reset contacts on the Amanero is an royal pain on the LKS004.

Switching back and forth between DSD and PCM is not clean with the occasional loud crack.

DSD256 native works, DSD512 is still a work in progress.

Presentation on DSD256 is more organic compared to the Singxer SU-1 with less high end emphasis.
I found it more analog like and overall a more pleasant experience, SU-1 is a bit cold in comparison.

I tried it with Roon and HQplayer poly-sinc-xtr with the Sotm SMS200.
Roon seems to be more compatible with the new firmware,
HQPlayer has a lot more issues with cracks when starting and stopping.

DSD512 was unplayable on HQPlayer, played with Roon but lots of crackling.


----------



## VerloK

Does anyone compare IS2 HDMI VS RJ45? 

Regards


----------



## Xoverman

Wow, b0bb.  I myself was thinking of using the HQPlayer just to compare agenst foobar upsampling .
I would be delighted if you could be so kind to share your sonic impressions with the HQPLAYER vs Foobar with us.
Of course with the CUDA upsampling .

I myself am very happy with the SU-1. And I'm not suffering from any HF noise problems. I use the HDMI input of the 004.


----------



## VerloK

b0bb said:


> This one thing to check with LKS.



Hi,

LKS did not respond to my Email So i talked to Xoverman, he is also from Germany.
2 Weeks later he managed to Repair my LKS, switched some Resistors and one SMD. 4h of Hard Work...
It was also a pleasure to Hear his Self Build Loudspeaker. Very Impressive 
Iam very thankful about his Work, very Professional.

regards


----------



## b0bb (Jun 10, 2019)

Xoverman said:


> Wow, b0bb.  I myself was thinking of using the HQPlayer just to compare agenst foobar upsampling .
> I would be delighted if you could be so kind to share your sonic impressions with the HQPLAYER vs Foobar with us.
> Of course with the CUDA upsampling .
> 
> I myself am very happy with the SU-1. And I'm not suffering from any HF noise problems. I use the HDMI input of the 004.



I have only ever used foobar with Sox.
Up until Roon and HQPlayer (HQP) showed up, my impression of upsampling was negative, meaning that the process took away more than it added.
In the case of the LKS004 it emphasizes clarity over bass impact, meaning it amplified some of the worst characteristics of the implementation

Both Roon and HQP have trial demos that provide adequate time to determine if their offerings make sense to you

CUDA offload on consumer cards is a double edged sword, HQP uses double precision 64bit/80bit floating point math (fp64).
fp64 performance is severely crippled on consumer cards running 32x-64x slower than single precision math.

The GTX1080  I was using was so slow (approx 380 GFlops) that it could not do DSD512, it was at 70% load doing DSD256
If you are really serious about using CUDA offload get something like not crippled like the Titan V (6000 GFlops). It is reasonably priced on the used market.
The RTX cards might be another option if you are on a budget.

You mentioned in a previous post that  the overall presentation of your dac is tending toward the topend with the bass impact thinning out as you made the mods.
LKS004 is extremely sensitive to RF noise, the symptom being an exaggerated upper midrange and topend. Female vocal can be particularly harsh in a noisy RF environment.

Singxer has an FPGA and misc signal conversion bits  for SPDIF and AES after the isolator, in addition to the re-clock logic. The first part is unwanted baggage if you are using I2S.
The is always a noise penalty to be paid when you have active circuitry more so the ones not doing actual useful work.

One quick way to find out if you have this issue is to drop a RF absorber pad on top of the FPGA to see  if it changes the sound, it did for me.
In order for this to work the RF absorber pad should have the highest absorption in the 1-50MHz band.


----------



## b0bb

VerloK said:


> Hi,
> 
> LKS did not respond to my Email So i talked to Xoverman, he is also from Germany.
> 2 Weeks later he managed to Repair my LKS, switched some Resistors and one SMD. 4h of Hard Work...
> ...



Good that you took to someone with experience for the repair


----------



## MartinWT

Things to aid with harshness reduction while allowing hi-resolution playback with the LKS:

- Get rid of the Crystek 575 clock.  Mine now has a TXC low phase 100MHz crystal and is a lot less bright with better fine detail
- Implement one of the internal RFI/EMI shielding ideas presented here, especially around the digital toroid
- Place the LKS on good isolation as it is very susceptible to vibrations (I use an Electric Beach shelf with Black Ravioli feet)
- Use a regenerated or very well filtered mains feed with a good power cable
- Select your interconnects carefully (balanced sound better with the LKS) and don't use silver cables


----------



## Forgisound

In this forum many times I have read that the sound of LKS 004 can be aggressive, for the oscillator Crystek 575. I've never heard of it before. The Ethernet cable between the switch and SOtM SMS 200 Ultra was AQ Cinnamon 0.6m, up to the Sinxger SU-1 USB cable AQ Diamond and LKS 004 HDMI cable AQ Cinnamon.
I wanted to try the HDMI 0.3 m hoping for even smaller jitter on DSD material. I got Wireworld Ultraviolet 7 0.3 m. At the same time, I got the WW Starlight 8 Ethernet cable. Both cables changed the sound, pointing the middle area to the clay. Jitter did not even decrease or increase.
But the sound image moved forward. The sound in the Middle Ages was acutely aggressive.
WW cables are not inferior to AQ but point out the mid range and the sound on these frequencies gets aggressive.
On the other hand, AQ has more transparency and air, the sound is retracted. There is no aggressiveness, but it is noticeable that the sound in the middle range is slightly thinner. The violin is very resolute, but there are fewer differences when a musician tends to pull more gentle and harder.
Although I've already purchased the Crystek 950X, I have not installed it yet, because my engineer has no time. Now I've decided to hurry him a little.


----------



## b0bb

Forgisound said:


> In this forum many times I have read that the sound of LKS 004 can be aggressive, for the oscillator Crystek 575. I've never heard of it before. The Ethernet cable between the switch and SOtM SMS 200 Ultra was AQ Cinnamon 0.6m, up to the Sinxger SU-1 USB cable AQ Diamond and LKS 004 HDMI cable AQ Cinnamon.
> I wanted to try the HDMI 0.3 m hoping for even smaller jitter on DSD material. I got Wireworld Ultraviolet 7 0.3 m. At the same time, I got the WW Starlight 8 Ethernet cable. Both cables changed the sound, pointing the middle area to the clay. Jitter did not even decrease or increase.
> But the sound image moved forward. The sound in the Middle Ages was acutely aggressive.
> WW cables are not inferior to AQ but point out the mid range and the sound on these frequencies gets aggressive.
> ...



That should not be happening, the symptoms you describe is an indication RF noise from the Singxer is leaking into the LKS004.
I find that to be the major failing of the stock SU-1.

You are relying on the expensive HDMI cable to filter out some of this junk, neither options you tried seemed to do a complete job.
It was never designed to do this, rather the cable stops external noise from getting in not reduce noise that is already there

Add a few ferrite RF absorber sheets inside the Singxer in the area after the isolator.
I find that this cleans things up.

Fix the problem at the source.

This is how I can use low cost cable from Monoprice and it gets the job done, no difference with cables costing 10-20x more.

From my perspective the 2 exotic HDMI cables you mentioned is sufficient to pay for 1 HQPlayer license or 1 year of Roon.


----------



## MartinWT

It was only a small improvement but I found the cheaper Blue Jeans Series-FE HDMI outperformed the more expensive Audioquest Cinnamon HDMI.  The BJ is outstanding value for its low cost.


----------



## Forgisound

b0bb said:


> That should not be happening, the symptoms you describe is an indication RF noise from the Singxer is leaking into the LKS004.
> I find that to be the major failing of the stock SU-1.
> 
> You are relying on the expensive HDMI cable to filter out some of this junk, neither options you tried seemed to do a complete job.
> ...


Maybe you're right about expensive cables.
I managed to conclude that with WW cables, AQ Diamond USB is too much silver. Now Belden is better, less agressiveness of midrange tones.
I tried to exclude the Singxer from the combination and realized that it stopped working the USB port on the DAC. Other inputs are working. The device has not been modified so far.
The device is under warranty but is purchased from another EU country via eBay. I'm not sure I will make a guarantee.
Which USB input failure is most common?
Thanx.


----------



## b0bb

Forgisound said:


> Maybe you're right about expensive cables.
> I managed to conclude that with WW cables, AQ Diamond USB is too much silver. Now Belden is better, less agressiveness of midrange tones.
> I tried to exclude the Singxer from the combination and realized that it stopped working the USB port on the DAC. Other inputs are working. The device has not been modified so far.
> The device is under warranty but is purchased from another EU country via eBay. I'm not sure I will make a guarantee.
> ...



Double check to see if the Amanero shows up when you plug it in on a Windows PC/laptop.
SMS-200 also reports the Amanero under the DAC Info if it is working.

If none of the above works, see if warranty replacement is possible.

Sometimes the flash image goes bad, re-flashing using the Amanero OEM117  tool might fix it.


----------



## Forgisound

Seller promised to send a new USB. I hope that USB will have the latest firmware.


----------



## Baten

b0bb said:


> That should not be happening, the symptoms you describe is an indication RF noise from the Singxer is leaking into the LKS004.
> I find that to be the major failing of the stock SU-1.
> 
> You are relying on the expensive HDMI cable to filter out some of this junk, neither options you tried seemed to do a complete job.
> It was never designed to do this, rather the cable stops external noise from getting in not reduce noise that is already there



Honestly SU-1 is overrated and I own one myself. It's much cheaper to get a MATRIX X-SPDIF 2 USB, and just use it without external power but only USB for both data and power, using a laptop on battery. Super low noise, no mods needed and it already has Assusilicon clocks. Incredibly hassle-free. The Singxer SU-6 is another contender but it is much more expensive for essentially same performance (SU-6 uses super capacitors for power which seems unnecessary/gimmicky, but cool).


----------



## b0bb (Jun 13, 2019)

Baten said:


> Honestly SU-1 is overrated and I own one myself. It's much cheaper to get a MATRIX X-SPDIF 2 USB, and just use it without external power but only USB for both data and power, using a laptop on battery. Super low noise, no mods needed and it already has Assusilicon clocks. Incredibly hassle-free. The Singxer SU-6 is another contender but it is much more expensive for essentially same performance (SU-6 uses super capacitors for power which seems unnecessary/gimmicky, but cool).



Below is the LKS004 I2S  input pinout.
Pin14 in the diagram lets the DAC know that a DSD stream is present, it is non-standard and specific to LKS.



Next is the Matrix X-SPIDIF I2S output pinout from the manual downloaded from their website.
Note the DSDOE pin missing, instead we have an unconnected pin, left side 3rd from the bottom



This is not fully compatible with the LKS004, as Native DSD mode can never be engaged.
With the Matrix, the LKS004 cannot be used to its full potential.

This is might be fixable with a new firmware flash if they ran a copper trace from that pin back to the FPGA
I would not use the Matrix on the LKS until there is specific clarification from the manufacturer on compatability.

PS
Matrix raised prices, it is $10 cheaper than the SU-1 on Amazon, I would stick with the SU-1, it is the known quantity here.


----------



## MartinWT

USB was never designed for such hi-res streaming, no wonder it's fraught with issues.

I'm using the I2S input with streaming from Qobuz Studio and the sound quality is superb. I don't care about DSD and I know of no streaming service that provides it.


----------



## Baten

MartinWT said:


> USB was never designed for such hi-res streaming, no wonder it's fraught with issues.
> 
> I'm using the I2S input with streaming from Qobuz Studio and the sound quality is superb. I don't care about DSD and I know of no streaming service that provides it.


Following that thinking I2S was never designed for travelling more than a couple cm between chips


----------



## Whitigir (Jun 13, 2019)

Baten said:


> Following that thinking I2S was never designed for travelling more than a couple cm between chips


USB requires both interfaces at both end that has to be able to compress and send the packages and then uncompressed and process then convert the packages into I2S.

After the USB host to USB slaves interfaces .....is I2S.

Therefore, going to I2S, you cut down many different extra processing.  Not to mention that the USB interfaces in LKS004 suck...Amanero suck, period.  You don’t have to take my word for it, it is better to find out for yourself.  You are also correct regarding I2S that isn’t made to travel further than a few cm, and that is why many people opting for HDMI as it was designed and engineered the best for I2S to travel at length.  However, the shorter, the better.  No one is stopping you to put one device next to LKS-004 I2S ports and having a 4-5cm HDMI cables or i2s cables

The final conclusion is that going to I2S is the best if you don’t need DSD.   The LKS-004 can take in DSD1024 over I2S btw....and there is no USB DDC that is capable of such yet....talk about I2S and it great performances eh ?  The only limitation is that I2S chip as the interface has never been exposed to such demands, and hence they are stuck at 192Khz.  Until the demands are enough, you will see a lot more I2S that is able to do ways more than USB can handle


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> USB was never designed for such hi-res streaming, no wonder it's fraught with issues.
> 
> I'm using the I2S input with streaming from Qobuz Studio and the sound quality is superb. I don't care about DSD and I know of no streaming service that provides it.



I think you got it the other way around.

Your I2S streamer is based on the Raspberry Pi from your sig

Below is the system block diagram of the RPI3.
https://www.element14.com/community.../blog/2017/01/16/raspberry-pi-3-block-diagram


The ethernet interface is a USB device plugged into the USB port on the BCM2837 SoC.

Taking a closer look at the LAN9514, we see this ethernet device is a dongle plugged into an internal USB hub inside the LAN9514
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/00002306A.pdf



Your streamer box has not one but two USB links before it reaches the SoC
The presence of USB in your streaming path does not seem to affect its performance as you seem quite happy with the end result.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 13, 2019)

Whitigir said:


> The final conclusion is that going to I2S is the best if you don’t need DSD.   The LKS-004 can take in DSD1024 over I2S btw....and there is no USB DDC that is capable of such yet....talk about I2S and it great performances eh ?  The only limitation is that I2S chip as the interface has never been exposed to such demands, and hence they are stuck at 192Khz.  Until the demands are enough, you will see a lot more I2S that is able to do ways more than USB can handle



There is no 192kHz restriction on the LKS I2S input. Both the LKS004 and LKS003 with handle DSD512x48, this equates to 768kHz. This is with the Singxer SU-1
This is only a consideration with devices like the Pink Faun I2S card which cannot go higher.

There is no need to give up on DSD if you want to use I2S, SU-1 is an example.

This whole issue of I2S vs USB is quite overblown @MartinWT quite happily using this I2S network streamer and that thing used a USB ethernet dongle connected  via a USB hub.


----------



## Forgisound (Jun 14, 2019)

Can the latest Amanero Combo work with the DSD 512? I'll get a new one, because old Amanero does not work. Someone mentioned the new firmware with which DSD 512 works. The LKS Web site in description 004 DAC continues to support DSD 512 support only through Windows.
If that worked well, then I might need to buy the LT3042 and connect the SMS 200 Ultra directly to Amanero?


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> I think you got it the other way around.


Yes, I'm aware that Ethernet is compromised in the Pi, although cable is better than Wi-Fi. However, the Kali board isolates the worst of the Pi system noise and eliminates its clock altogether. The emerging I2S signal is very clean.


----------



## b0bb

Forgisound said:


> Can the latest Amanero Combo work with the DSD 512? I'll get a new one, because old Amanero does not work. Someone mentioned the new firmware with which DSD 512 works. The LKS Web site in description 004 DAC continues to support DSD 512 support only through Windows.
> If that worked well, then I might need to buy the LT3042 and connect the SMS 200 Ultra directly to Amanero?



DSD512 works with the SMS200 but it is not too great, lots of popping sounds. DSD256 is ok.
Link below tracks some of the current development.
https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd/issues/12


----------



## VerloK

I had no issues with DSD512 with Amanero from ROON. 
DPLL7~8

Regards


----------



## xiamen

b0bb said:


> HQPlayer is quite a computational hog.
> 
> Below is HQPlayer running the poly-sinc-xtr filter, ASDM7 DS modulator and upconverting 96k PCM to DSD256 with Nvidia CUDA GPGPU offload
> 
> ...


Was intrigued by this and I tried this out on my single PC Windows 10 64bit Pro setup. I only have a Geforce 1060 (with Intel 8700) but I managed fine with upsampling to DSD512:



 

CPU maxed at under 70% and GPU 50%. Was not keen on HQPlayer but I had been using poly-sinc-short-mp-2s. Poly-sinc-xtr open my eyes (or ears). Only have an evaluation copy at the moment. Will listen more...   I know you have a Roon/HQPlayer setup. Does Roon actually add to the audio quality of the HQPlayer output?


----------



## Quadman

xiamen said:


> CPU maxed at under 70% and GPU 50%. Was not keen on HQPlayer but I had been using poly-sinc-short-mp-2s. Poly-sinc-xtr open my eyes (or ears). Only have an evaluation copy at the moment. Will listen more... I know you have a Roon/HQPlayer setup. Does Roon actually add to the audio quality of the HQPlayer output?



The XTR filters in HQP, the non-2s versions are extremely computationally heavy.  Most CPU's cannot do them and you will hear some stuttering from time to time.  Better to try the XTR-2s versions, sonically almost identical and way less processing.  I now listen mostly to Sinc-M filter (after a year+ listening to the XTR-MP-2s filters) to do that you need a GPU w CUDA off load as my Ryzen 1800x cannot do it on its own.  In HQP make sure the CUDA off load in settings is checked marked (not grayed out) as this allows the GPU to share some workload with CPU.  With Sinc-M and CUDA off load checked marked and upsampling all files (mostly AIFF or FLAC 16/44 PCM) to DSD512 my CPU runs at 22% and my 1060 Nvidia card runs at 22%.  With the XTR-MP-2s filter (and CUDA) CPU runs at 23% and GPU at 10-12%.

I also use roon and HQP and Tidal.  I don't think roon improves the SQ that HQP can do on its own, what roon does is provide seamless integration with Tidal or Qubuz and a very easy graphical user interface to use, by far the best out there.  Roon also has an upsampling engine capable of DSD512 but it lacks sonically when compared to HQP.


----------



## b0bb

xiamen said:


> Was intrigued by this and I tried this out on my single PC Windows 10 64bit Pro setup. I only have a Geforce 1060 (with Intel 8700) but I managed fine with upsampling to DSD512:
> 
> CPU maxed at under 70% and GPU 50%. Was not keen on HQPlayer but I had been using poly-sinc-short-mp-2s. Poly-sinc-xtr open my eyes (or ears). Only have an evaluation copy at the moment. Will listen more...   I know you have a Roon/HQPlayer setup. Does Roon actually add to the audio quality of the HQPlayer output?



Roon does not alter the audio quality. It allows HQP to play a wider variety of formats for example ALAC.
I have a modified ipod with a large flash drive that I carry my entire collection, I had no interest in HQP until Roon offered this feature.

I use Roon for library management. I find HQP desktop is too clumsy and clunky.

The polysinc-xtr-mp-2s filter  is computationally cheaper than poly-sinc-xtr-mp, it is about the same quality as Roon's CLANS7 modulator and Roon is a lot less hassle to use.
poly-sinc-xtr-mp is however in a league of its own.


----------



## b0bb

VerloK said:


> I had no issues with DSD512 with Amanero from ROON.
> DPLL7~8
> 
> Regards



I went back and took another look at the Amanero. 
DSD512 is now working with Roon.
HQPlayer is still a no-go, lots of very nasty clicks when the stream starts and stops on my SMS200.

Sound quality is a step above the SU-1, backgrounds are blacker and the edginess is all but gone.
I was quite pleased and ordered another Amanero interface with the LT3042 PS (aka the non-sucky version)

At this rate I think I can take the SU-1 out of service permanently.


----------



## Quadman

b0bb said:


> poly-sinc-xtr-mp is however in a league of its own.



b0bb, what CPU do you use to upsample poly-since-xtr-mp


----------



## b0bb (Jun 18, 2019)

Quadman said:


> b0bb, what CPU do you use to upsample poly-since-xtr-mp



Xeon E5-1660v2. 6cores 3.7GHz 15M cache

It is quite old and due for replacement, waiting for the dust to settle between Intel's Cascade Lake and AMD's Threadripper Zen2

The CPU load is about 18% running at 3.42GHz, CPU is not the bottleneck.


----------



## MartinWT (Jun 23, 2019)

After a very nice couple of months spent with the temporary replacement crystal oscillator from TXC, which sounded much better than the Crystek 575 fitted as stock, I finally had the full Coherent ultra low phase crystal oscillator module installed in the LKS today.  It took some time to find the ideal voltage rail, but we found a 9V rail powering the digital circuits which could provide the 100mA required.  The module has onboard regulation so the exact voltage is immaterial.

The module itself was positioned right next to the two ESS 9038 Sabre DACs (shown with heatsinks) with the clock signal going to the pads vacated by the outgoing crystal.






We had taken a scope capture of the 100MHz clock from the TXC, which was a fairly distorted sinewave with lots of harmonics.&nbsp; The clock from the Coherent module looked like a perfect sinewave and spectral analysis showed excellent purity and a low -80dB noise floor. Things looked promising, especially after a test run on Tony's system.

I've had it running in my system for a few hours now, giving time for the LKS to warm up again and starting the burn-in process for the module, and I'm very pleased with what I'm hearing. Over the TXC, there is more of everything that the latter crystal had revealed: a well developed wide and deep soundstage, startling fine detail, no harshness whatsoever and very good dynamics. Overall, vividness takes another step up towards reality.

Over the Crystek, the LKS really shows what the superb dual ESS 9038 DACs are capable of. Huge detail, propulsive rhythms, vivid and palpable performances, wonderful voice reproduction.


----------



## littlexx26

MartinWT said:


> After a very nice couple of months spent with the temporary replacement crystal oscillator from TXC, which sounded much better than the Crystek 575 fitted as stock, I finally had the full Coherent ultra low phase crystal oscillator module installed in the LKS today.  It took some time to find the ideal voltage rail, but we found a 9V rail powering the digital circuits which could provide the 100mA required.  The module has onboard regulation so the exact voltage is immaterial.
> 
> The module itself was positioned right next to the two ESS 9038 Sabre DACs (shown with heatsinks) with the clock signal going to the pads vacated by the outgoing crystal.
> 
> ...



So it now should sound as good as Nagra or dcs


----------



## MartinWT

littlexx26 said:


> So it now should sound as good as Nagra or dcs


I've heard dCS, the LKS sounds much more real and less like polished hi-fi.


----------



## littlexx26

MartinWT said:


> I've heard dCS, the LKS sounds much more real and less like polished hi-fi.


so do you think the culprit is the power supply rather than 575 sounds bad itself?


----------



## MartinWT

It's both, and EMI/RFI shielding.

New clock, better PSU capacitors around the 9038 chips and some shielding around the digital PSU toroid.


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> After a very nice couple of months spent with the temporary replacement crystal oscillator from TXC, which sounded much better than the Crystek 575 fitted as stock, I finally had the full Coherent ultra low phase crystal oscillator module installed in the LKS today.  It took some time to find the ideal voltage rail, but we found a 9V rail powering the digital circuits which could provide the 100mA required.  The module has onboard regulation so the exact voltage is immaterial.
> 
> The module itself was positioned right next to the two ESS 9038 Sabre DACs (shown with heatsinks) with the clock signal going to the pads vacated by the outgoing crystal.


Can you post a link to more info on the XO board?

Thanks.


----------



## MartinWT

Coherent Systems are here:
https://www.coherent-systems.co.uk/services/upgrades

There's not much information online but Tony of Coherent could talk to you all day about his ultra low phase clock and upgrade work.


----------



## xiamen

MartinWT said:


> Coherent Systems are here:
> https://www.coherent-systems.co.uk/services/upgrades
> 
> There's not much information online but Tony of Coherent could talk to you all day about his ultra low phase clock and upgrade work.


I wonder if he can take this further and use the XO board to provide for an external master clock input. Usually that is not that attractive an idea  as good reference clock costs an arm and a leg. But lately I looked into the concept of  a GPS Disciplined Oscillator  https://blog.bliley.com/what-are-gps-disciplined-oscillators-gpsdo-applications. On alixexpress, you can get those for only a few hundred USD and they advertised them as more accurate than atomic clock. I got this one https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33002738040.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.46a84c4dzuEexX which is a GNSS disciplined oscillator(OCXO). No documentation !!! But it seems to just work as a reference master clock. The constraint is your system needs to be close to a window so you can put the GPS receiver outdoor sky facing. Tried this out with my other DAC (ifi Pro iDSD) which accepts external clock input. I do believe I can hear serious improvements.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 29, 2019)

xiamen said:


> I wonder if he can take this further and use the XO board to provide for an external master clock input. Usually that is not that attractive an idea  as good reference clock costs an arm and a leg. But lately I looked into the concept of  a GPS Disciplined Oscillator  https://blog.bliley.com/what-are-gps-disciplined-oscillators-gpsdo-applications. On alixexpress, you can get those for only a few hundred USD and they advertised them as more accurate than atomic clock. I got this one https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33002738040.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.46a84c4dzuEexX which is a GNSS disciplined oscillator(OCXO). No documentation !!! But it seems to just work as a reference master clock. The constraint is your system needs to be close to a window so you can put the GPS receiver outdoor sky facing. Tried this out with my other DAC (ifi Pro iDSD) which accepts external clock input. I do believe I can hear serious improvements.



The main takeaway from this is the use of the OCXO
This is what I have done with the Pulsar. @Whitigir did something similar with the Abracon.

Abracon OCXOs that work with the LKS is about half the cost of the GPSDO unit you listed.

GPSDO units provide good stability over the long term over thousands of milliseconds, in audio it is the short term frequency stability that really matters hence the need for OCXOs
To put things into perspective 20Hz is 50ms.
OCXO provides the short term stability, GPSDO the long term stability.

*Specific issues with the LKS*
1)
The unit above outputs 10MHz, LKS needs 100MHz, it requires 10x multiplication. Phase noise goes up 10x.
Most common way is to use another oscillator with a DPLL to multiply the frequency. These are called Phased Locked XO (PLXO)
A good PLXO is expensive and can easily double the cost of the work.

This is very clunky as there are 3XOs one after another, GPSDO 10MHz, PLXO  (10MHz --> 100MHz) and LKS masteclock 100MHz XO with DPLL.

2)
The iFi DAC is based on the Burr-Brown DAC, these do not have internal clock generators + DPLL  unlike  the ES9038. It uses an externally provided clock by design.

ES9038 has its own master clock, so you end up with *two *DPLLs.
One to multiply the 10MHz signal and one inside the ES9038.
DPLLs are a double edged sword.

In order to get the maximum benefit of an external clock source, the ES9038 has to be configured for slave mode operation. LKS runs it in master clock mode.

If want to explore the concept  of an external master clock further, the Twisted Pair Buffalo III uses the ES9038 with the necessary programming interfaces exposed to put the DAC into slave mode bypassing the internal DPLL.

On the LKS you will have to disable parts of the onboard microcontrollers (uC) and rewire some of the DAC connections.
There 2 uCs so you will have to figure what roles each uC plays.
This is best done after experimentation on a similar design like the TP BIII.


----------



## xiamen

b0bb said:


> The main takeaway from this is the use of the OCXO
> This is what I have done with the Pulsar. @Whitigir did something similar with the Abracon.
> 
> Abracon OCXOs that work with the LKS is about half the cost of the GPSDO unit you listed.
> ...


The Singxer SU-1 have a word clock input. Can you apply an external master clock to that and would that benefit the LKS master.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 29, 2019)

xiamen said:


> The Singxer SU-1 have a word clock input. Can you apply an external master clock to that and would that benefit the LKS master.



No, SU1 wants to be the masterclock source .

The  wordclock is output not input, on my SU1 V2 it is 45MHz or 49MHz depending on the incoming sampling rate.

LKS needs a fixed 100Mhz for its internal PLXO, so you will still need the extra external PLXO to do the frequency multiplication to 100MHz.

The additional complication is that this is a non-integer multiplication (49MHz --> 100MHz) so there is the penalty of worsened jitter performance.


----------



## aggielaw

Well, I had a WTH moment tonight.  I spent an hour plus removing the top and back plates of the LKS and flashing the new Amanero firmware.  Not only do I not have DSD 256 or 512 available, I lost my access to DSD 128.  I followed the instructions (thanks Lenny!) with one exception: I flashed the CPU without powering the LKS off and back on after flashing the firmware.  Could that be the problem?

Also, I see the oddly-worded description of the windows10/linux DSD512 file just beneath the latest firmware file on the Amanero site.  Should I use that file for something, and if so, how do I use it?

Thanks!


----------



## b0bb (Jul 7, 2019)

aggielaw said:


> Well, I had a WTH moment tonight.  I spent an hour plus removing the top and back plates of the LKS and flashing the new Amanero firmware.  Not only do I not have DSD 256 or 512 available, I lost my access to DSD 128.  I followed the instructions (thanks Lenny!) with one exception: I flashed the CPU without powering the LKS off and back on after flashing the firmware.  Could that be the problem?
> 
> Also, I see the oddly-worded description of the windows10/linux DSD512 file just beneath the latest firmware file on the Amanero site.  Should I use that file for something, and if so, how do I use it?
> 
> Thanks!



firmware_2006be10 implements native DSD mode, this adds a new mode to the card.

Linux has the necessary device drivers, on Windows a new device driver is required to access native DSD mode, the driver is Setupuac2 1.097
If you did not flash this version then the problem is something else.

A full power-on reset should be performed after flashing each portion of the 2 different parts of the firmware.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> I went back and took another look at the Amanero.
> DSD512 is now working with Roon.
> HQPlayer is still a no-go, lots of very nasty clicks when the stream starts and stops on my SMS200.
> 
> ...



Good evening from Germany
Hy b0bb, can you please describe the difference between the SU-1 and the amanero with the new firmware a little more in detail.
I also use a SU-1, because I wasn't satisfied with the Sound of the amanero. Even not with your LT power supply modifications.
Dose the neu amanero firmware improve things so much?


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Good evening from Germany
> Hy b0bb, can you please describe the difference between the SU-1 and the amanero with the new firmware a little more in detail.
> I also use a SU-1, because I wasn't satisfied with the Sound of the amanero. Even not with your LT power supply modifications.
> Dose the neu amanero firmware improve things so much?



Native DSD mode is several steps closer to unlocking the full potential of the Amanero.
The other piece is have Roon and/or HQP do the DSP heavy lifting, this gets most of the limited performance filters on the 9038 out of theway.
PCM on the LKS is not very interesting to me as the listening experience is thru the lens of the final stage PCM-->SDM converter in the 9038

When evaluating mods and the resultant sound quality it is  very important to take the listening room out of the picture.
I do all my initial listening on headphones and if it passes the test I go onto to the speakers.

Headphones used for this must be of the highest quality, I use the Sennheiser HD800 and Stax SR009.
HD800 is a very difficult device if the source is not up to the task, it tends to magnify tiny imperfections and the listening experience will be quite unpleasant until it is addressed.
The SR-009 can sound flat and 2 dimensional if the imaging from the source is not up to the task.

SU-1 is the inferior device with the setup above, while appearing to sound clear and transparent, listening fatigue can set in quickly.
Transients especially from Cymbals smear to an unacceptable extent with the SU-1
In DSD mode the Amanero has a much fuller midrange without compromising on the transient behavior above.

Bass extension is really poor on the SU-1 compared to the Amanero on the HD800, I was quite surprised when I first heard the Amanero in native DSD mode.
SU-1 thins out the bass transient and the low note extension, it lacks punch on some material, on other material SU-1 is hyperactive with transients over emphasized, the worse offenders are the 80s albums where the musicians began using mostly electronic synthesized music.

SR-009 sounds very dull on the SU-1 compared to the Amanero.

More than a few people have commented than bass was not an issue, and this is quite possible if you are listening thru speakers as the low end is  the room LF response.
If changes are made to the DAC on that basis the results are never good.

I am not quite ready to get rid of the SU-1 as the Amanero still have nasty clicks when changing sample rate basis ie from 44k base to 48k base and vice versa, 44k-->88k is OK, 44k-->96k nasty speaker killing click.
The mute signal  does not appear to work.
My flash image was from May 27 and it looks like Amanero may have an update.

Post pictures of your LT3042 USB power supply and I might be able to offer comments as to why it is not working as expected.


----------



## Forgisound

I ordered the power supply for Amanero, I can not wait to arrive. Then I'll try to do tiny upgrades, including the new firmware.
I managed to get the SU-1 sound I'm happy with. The sound is very open and dynamic. However, albums with the beginning of the red book era are disgusting. I think so and it must be. Poor audio recordings should sound bad, they should not make HiFi setup better.

Bobb, I think your Sennheiser headset is a great sound quality evaluation tool. You need speakers just to hear what stage and bass is, because the real bass can not develop in the headphones.


----------



## b0bb (Jul 9, 2019)

Forgisound said:


> I ordered the power supply for Amanero, I can not wait to arrive. Then I'll try to do tiny upgrades, including the new firmware.
> I managed to get the SU-1 sound I'm happy with. The sound is very open and dynamic. However, albums with the beginning of the red book era are disgusting. I think so and it must be. Poor audio recordings should sound bad, they should not make HiFi setup better.
> 
> Bobb, I think your Sennheiser headset is a great sound quality evaluation tool. You need speakers just to hear what stage and bass is, because the real bass can not develop in the headphones.



It is all relative, if you think SU-1 is good, a fully modified Amanero is a cut above that, that was when I realized how much of the LKS potential performance was left on the table when using the SU-1 once I started looking at the native DSD mode on the Amanero.

For a long time SU-1 was the only native DSD option that works with the linux based streamers like the SMS-200 and the LKS.

SU-1 is a very jittery device, the link below is a measurement on SPDIF.
Given that one of the main selling features of the unit is the low jitter re-clocking the results are a disappointment.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...f-singxer-su-1-usb-to-s-pdif.7095/post-161505
Compare the Gustard U12 (blue) to the SU-1 (red).
This tends to aggravate certain kinds of music like the early redbook stuff.

Bass playing from a speaker in a room is part from the speaker and part the room resonance modes, it makes it hard to do a comparative evaluation.
With that said, with the SU-1 I could feel the bass going over my concrete floor and up my chair, with the modified Amanero the walls shook as well, was not expecting that from the speaker that has 2 pairs of 10in woofers.
(This is part room resonance, my room has a mode at 26Hz, there was simply not enough energy at 26Hz to excite that mode when it was playing out of the SU-1)
Hence my comment about the SU-1 being bass shy.

Real bass can definately be present on headphone as it  causes the skull to vibrate, but it will not be able to shake the whole body like a standalone speaker.
If the bass performance is good on the HD800, I have found the speaker performance will good as well.
Additionally I also have the Audeze LCD3 just to make sure

Early Redbook recordings do quite well with HQP, if you use an apodizing filter to get rid of the pre-ringing in the signal.
This some of the silly stuff the industry used back in the 80's on the digital data to make it sound acceptable on cheap equipment by actually pre-distorting the signal.

The SU-1 is injecting a lot of noise into the LKS, I had it plugged into the I2S input but idle, unplugging it lifted a veil on the music.

Self noise from various interfaces is potentially a problem on the LKS, @MartinWT noticed a similar behavior when the unused Amanero was removed from the DAC.

The updated Amanero is a much cleaner presentation, it goes the next step in extracting even more performance out of the LKS 004

...but it is not completely free from issues, I am still quite concerned with the 44k/48k loud cracks I am hearing on my unit


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> The updated Amanero is a much cleaner presentation, it goes the next step in extracting even more performance out of the LKS 004



are we talking about an software update or also a neu hardware ?


----------



## Forgisound

[QUOTE = "b0bb, post: 15052221, član: 408594"] Sve je relativno, ako mislite da je SU-1 dobar, potpuno modificirani Amanero je rez iznad toga, tada sam shvatio koliko je potencijala LKS-a performanse su ostavljene na stolu kada je koristio SU-1 kad sam počeo gledati izvorni DSD mod na Amanero.

Dugo je SU-1 bila jedina prirodna DSD opcija koja radi s linux baziranim streamerima poput SMS-200 i LKS.

SU-1 je vrlo nervozan uređaj, link ispod je mjerenje na SPDIF.
S obzirom na to da je jedna od glavnih prodajnih značajki jedinice nisko podrhtavanje, rezultati su razočaranje.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...f-singxer-su-1-usb-to-s-pdif.7095/post-161505
Usporedite Gustard U12 (plavo) sa SU-1 (crveno).
To teži otežavanju određenih vrsta glazbe kao što su one u ranoj knjizi Redbooka.

Reprodukcija basova iz zvučnika u sobi dio je zvučnika i dio je rezonancije prostora, te je teško napraviti komparativnu procjenu.
S tim što sam rekao, s SU-1 osjetio sam kako bas prolazi preko mog betonskog poda i uz moj stolac, s izmijenjenim Amanerom i zidovi su se tresli, to nije očekivalo od zvučnika koji ima 2 para 10in woofera.
(Ovo je dio rezonancije prostorije, moja soba ima mod na 26Hz, jednostavno nije bilo dovoljno energije na 26Hz da bi pobudila taj mod kada se igrala izvan SU-1)
Zato moj komentar o SU-1 je bas stidljiv.

Pravi bas može definitivno biti prisutan na slušalicama jer uzrokuje vibriranje lubanje, ali neće moći tresti cijelo tijelo kao samostalni zvučnik.
Ako su performanse basa dobre na HD800, i ja sam otkrio da će performanse zvučnika također biti dobre.
Osim toga, imam i Audeze LCD3 kako bih bio siguran

Snimci rane knjige Redbooka dobro se slažu s HQP-om, ako koristite filtar za brisanje kako biste se riješili prethodnog zvonjenja u signalu.
To su neke od tih glupih stvari koje je industrija koristila još 80-ih godina na digitalnim podacima kako bi zvučale prihvatljivo na jeftinoj opremi time što su zapravo unaprijed izobličile signal.

SU-1 ubrizgava mnogo buke u LKS, ja sam ga priključio na ulaz I2S, ali je bio u stanju mirovanja, isključivši ga podignuvši veo na glazbu.

Sama buka iz različitih sučelja je potencijalno problem na LKS-u, [USER = 506797] @MartinWT [/ USER] primijetio je slično ponašanje kada je neiskorišteni Amanero uklonjen iz DAC-a.

Ažurirani Amanero je mnogo čišća prezentacija, ide sljedeći korak u izdvajanju još bolje izvedbe LKS 004

... ali nije posve slobodan od problema, još uvijek sam zabrinut zbog 44k / 48k glasnih pukotina koje čujem na mojoj jedinici [/ QUOTE]
Jinbo


b0bb said:


> It is all relative, if you think SU-1 is good, a fully modified Amanero is a cut above that, that was when I realized how much of the LKS potential performance was left on the table when using the SU-1 once I started looking at the native DSD mode on the Amanero.
> 
> For a long time SU-1 was the only native DSD option that works with the linux based streamers like the SMS-200 and the LKS.
> 
> ...


Jimbo also claims Amanero sounds better.


----------



## littlexx26 (Jul 9, 2019)

b0bb said:


> More than a few people have commented than bass was not an issue, and this is quite possible if you are listening thru speakers as the low end is  the room LF response.
> If changes are made to the DAC on that basis the results are never good.


No. Yes I am one of the few commented LKS004 bass was not an issue and I am listeniing through speakers. And yes I admit the bass is coming from the speakers+room response. But I disagree the cause of "not an issue" is this. If you feel the bass is weak and thin, first please check your cables. I have used some pure silver cables (made by Lavricables, their top of the line Master series, power cord and speaker cables) and serveral interconnects from Oyaide, DH Labs. They all made the sound quality bad including weak bass, harsh high, glare etc. After I changed to good quality cables whole frequency range sound correct and no distortion. What you are doing now adjusting the sound signature of LKS004 is all based on the cables you are using. I would say the stock LKS004 is everything all right.
And my Amanero is powered by uptone LPS1.2


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> are we talking about an software update or also a neu hardware ?



Upgrade is software only.


----------



## b0bb

littlexx26 said:


> No. Yes I am one of the few commented LKS004 bass was not an issue and I am listeniing through speakers. And yes I admit the bass is coming from the speakers+room response. But I disagree the cause of "not an issue" is this. If you feel the bass is weak and thin, first please check your cables. I have used some pure silver cables (made by Lavricables, their top of the line Master series, power cord and speaker cables) and serveral interconnects from Oyaide, DH Labs. They all made the sound quality bad including weak bass, harsh high, glare etc. After I changed to good quality cables whole frequency range sound correct and no distortion. What you are doing now adjusting the sound signature of LKS004 is all based on the cables you are using. I would say the stock LKS004 is everything all right.
> And my Amanero is powered by uptone LPS1.2



I do not find the LKS004 to be sensitive to cables under 10ft , I run the studio grade stuff from Canare, Mogami and Gotham. The cables are interchangeable.

LKS004 has to be compared to another DAC to bring its limitations into focus. I have the Schitt Yggdrasil and T+A DSD8 on occasional loan, both handily beat the stock LKS004 in the bass department whether it is on headphones or speakers.
Now that Amanero has addressed the Native DSD issue, I am considering getting the T+A which also uses Amanero.

I have started down a slightly different mod path for the LKS004 this time.
1)HQPlayer (HQP)  converting everything to DSD512, at that high rate most of the internal DSP processing in the 9038 is bypassed, this processing is partly responsible for the poor bass performance.
2)HQP's SDM modulators are far superior to the on chip ones on the 9038 and it does a better job converting PCM-->SDM
3)Amanero native DSD mode is very close to being completely done.

Bass performance with the polysinc-xtr filters right now is slightly better than the Yggy.
To completely get rid of the 9038's processing would require DSD1024 (its internal rate), we not quite there yet.


----------



## littlexx26 (Jul 10, 2019)

b0bb said:


> I do not find the LKS004 to be sensitive to cables under 10ft , I run the studio grade stuff from Canare, Mogami and Gotham. The cables are interchangeable.
> 
> LKS004 has to be compared to another DAC to bring its limitations into focus. I have the Schitt Yggdrasil and T+A DSD8 on occasional loan, both handily beat the stock LKS004 in the bass department whether it is on headphones or speakers.
> Now that Amanero has addressed the Native DSD issue, I am considering getting the T+A which also uses Amanero.
> ...


My 004 is very sensitive to cables. Both power cord and XLR. I have a pair of Gotham 11301 with Neutrik plugs and these are the worst XLR I ever tried with 004. Phase distortion, harsh human voice, glare treble, narrow frequency range and dynamic.
I can tell the difference each and everything single pair of XLR I have tried with 004. And my XLRs are all 1m or less


----------



## b0bb (Jul 10, 2019)

littlexx26 said:


> My 004 is very sensitive to cables. Both power cord and XLR. I have a pair of Gotham 11301 with Neutrik plugs and these are the worst XLR I ever tried with 004. Phase distortion, harsh human voice, glare treble, narrow frequency range and dynamic.
> I can tell the difference each and everything single pair of XLR I have tried with 004. And my XLRs are all 1m or less


Gotham 11301 is the GAC 4/1 Ultra Pro, it is the *most* expensive cable in Gotham's range, normally available only on special order and they need extra large boots from Neutrik.

It is a specialized cable for very long (20ft +) low loss runs driven by *preamp*.

The LKS004 XLR output stage lacks the power to handle the large capacitance due to the star-quad layout. This is yet another example of the need to understand the DAC's limitations.

Most expensive is not always the best in the proaudio world, prices reflect the intended use.
Saner persons would have chosen something more down to earth like the GAC3 at 10% of the cost for interconnect duties.

I have a set connected to the Yggy which has 10x the LKS004's drive capability.

PS. My set on the LKS never sounded as bad as you describe, on mine it is more of a gentle rolloff of the treble
The cable is needs careful attention to tiedown of the 5 separate shields, if not grounded properly the capacitance can increase making it even more difficult to drive.
The person who made the cable for you probably messed up the construction.


----------



## littlexx26

b0bb said:


> Gotham 11301 is the GAC 4/1 Ultra Pro, it is the *most* expensive cable in Gotham's range, normally available only on special order and they need extra large boots from Neutrik.
> 
> It is a specialized cable for very long (20ft +) low loss runs driven by *preamp*.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the information. I only used my set for few days.
I agree the most expensive is not always the best. But nothing good comes cheap.
Canare, Mogami and Gotham are similar in price and should not be any big difference.


----------



## aggielaw (Jul 10, 2019)

b0bb said:


> Gotham 11301 is the GAC 4/1 Ultra Pro, it is the *most* expensive cable in Gotham's range, normally available only on special order and they need extra large boots from Neutrik.
> 
> It is a specialized cable for very long (20ft +) low loss runs driven by *preamp*.
> 
> ...



I use these (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MZLZK0C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1) between the LKS and my preamp; am I correct in reading  your post to say I should change these out because they may be contributing to the glare and harshness I hear from the LKS?

Side note: when I purchased my LKS I had it shipped to Ric Schultz at EVS Audio.  He commented on the paucity of bass and improved the power supply in addition to performing this list of mods: (http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/LKS_Mods.html) Should I replace the Canare still?

Thanks for your thoughts!


----------



## littlexx26 (Jul 10, 2019)

aggielaw said:


> I use these (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MZLZK0C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1) between the LKS and my preamp; am I correct in reading  your post to say I should change these out because they may be contributing to the glare and harshness I hear from the LKS?
> 
> Side note: when I purchased my LKS I had it shipped to Ric Schultz at EVS Audio.  He commented on the paucity of bass and improved the power supply in addition to performing this list of mods: (http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/LKS_Mods.html) Should I replace the Canare still?
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts!


Your LKS004 will always sound harsh and glared with this grade of cables no matter how much u mod it, even you put an MSB Select DAC into it


----------



## Xoverman

Hi everyone, I found out that because the lks XLR output has such a high output impedance, and the output stage is also the I/V conversation stage, picking the right cable is very tricky. Also the slightest HF comming in backwards over the XLR's messes everything up. It's so sad that lks didn't build a good  buffering stage for the XLR's into the DAC. 
So I'm working with the RCA output at the moment. It's fully buffered. 
That's probably also the reason why I don't have any HF degradation coming from the I2S HDMI input working with the SU-1 at the moment .
I find working with high end audio extremely complex and complicated. You can hear everything. Every little change.  But that's also why I like the hobby.


----------



## xiamen

b0bb said:


> I do not find the LKS004 to be sensitive to cables under 10ft , I run the studio grade stuff from Canare, Mogami and Gotham. The cables are interchangeable.
> 
> LKS004 has to be compared to another DAC to bring its limitations into focus. I have the Schitt Yggdrasil and T+A DSD8 on occasional loan, both handily beat the stock LKS004 in the bass department whether it is on headphones or speakers.
> Now that Amanero has addressed the Native DSD issue, I am considering getting the T+A which also uses Amanero.
> ...


Hmm. Is the problem just with 9038 or all delta sigma dacs. Is it an option to convert all audio files to dsd offline. I am thinking using polysinc-xtr filters will put quite a strain on the CPU/GPU which potentially means more power consumption and may be generate more noise.


----------



## littlexx26

Xoverman said:


> Hi everyone, I found out that because the lks XLR output has such a high output impedance, and the output stage is also the I/V conversation stage, picking the right cable is very tricky. Also the slightest HF comming in backwards over the XLR's messes everything up. It's so sad that lks didn't build a good  buffering stage for the XLR's into the DAC.
> So I'm working with the RCA output at the moment. It's fully buffered.
> That's probably also the reason why I don't have any HF degradation coming from the I2S HDMI input working with the SU-1 at the moment .
> I find working with high end audio extremely complex and complicated. You can hear everything. Every little change.  But that's also why I like the hobby.


How does harmonica sound with RCA?  LKS sounds worst when playing harmonica


----------



## b0bb

aggielaw said:


> I use these (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MZLZK0C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1) between the LKS and my preamp; am I correct in reading  your post to say I should change these out because they may be contributing to the glare and harshness I hear from the LKS?
> 
> Side note: when I purchased my LKS I had it shipped to Ric Schultz at EVS Audio.  He commented on the paucity of bass and improved the power supply in addition to performing this list of mods: (http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/LKS_Mods.html) Should I replace the Canare still?
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts!



The Canare L4-6ES is one of the most transparent and neutral cables on the market, this is one reason it is found  extensive use in music recording studios, keep using it.
It does not contribute any significant coloration for lengths < 10ft, so everything you here is straight out of the DAC.

Problem lies squarely with the LKS 004, you may have heard of the term "Sabre Glare", this is it.

@littlexx26 used a massive Gotham cable, it can fit 4 Canare cables within its diameter, the LKS does not have the ability to drive than kind of load and got very poor results.
My comments do not apply to the Canare L4-6ES

I bought the Schitt Yggdrasil as a comparison standard when doing my mods to see if the LKS 004 can be made to sound as smooth as a R2R DAC
My next target is the T+A DSD8

The main ones are

1)
Replacing the stock CCHD575 with a higher performing unit like the Abracon OCXO @Whitigir used, alternative is the CCHD-950X. @MartinWT added a very nice clock board as the XO.
There are quite a few options.
Main effect is to get rid of the ear splitting HF performance of the CCHD575, I have seen this behavior on 2 other ESS DACS the LKS003 and Yulong DA8

2)
RF absorber sheets on the digital transceiver interfaces for I2S and USB, this soaks up a lot of the RF junk and considerably smooths out the midrange.
Crucial if you are using the Singxer SU-1, it shuts a lot of the noise coming from that unit, also add absorbers on the SU-1 this dials down the glare by quite a margin

3)
Move the onboard DSP processing out of the way by using only high rate DSD, do the PCM --> DSD conversion externally if you have PCM, this avoids the internal PCM --> DSD conversion 
Roon or HQPlayer are the ones for the job.


----------



## b0bb (Jul 11, 2019)

Xoverman said:


> Hi everyone, I found out that because the lks XLR output has such a high output impedance, and the output stage is also the I/V conversation stage, picking the right cable is very tricky. Also the slightest HF comming in backwards over the XLR's messes everything up. It's so sad that lks didn't build a good  buffering stage for the XLR's into the DAC.
> So I'm working with the RCA output at the moment. It's fully buffered.
> That's probably also the reason why I don't have any HF degradation coming from the I2S HDMI input working with the SU-1 at the moment .
> I find working with high end audio extremely complex and complicated. You can hear everything. Every little change.  But that's also why I like the hobby.



You can side-step much of the XLR cable drama by using a balanced preamp to buffer the XLR output.
I use the preamp outputs either of my Schitt Mjolnir or Gustard H20. Both units put out in excess of 2W so there is plenty of drive capability.

Both these preamps contribute very little in terms of coloration, the upside is that there is now a buffered volume control, and you can use the 004's fixed output, this is substantially better than the variable output which can compress the dynamics of the music to an unacceptable degree.

There is the reference schematic for the 9018's I/V and passive XLR analog stage in the LKS003 thread in the computer section that I posted a few years ago.
LKS just replaced the opamps with discrete versions on the 004.


----------



## aggielaw

b0bb, many thanks for your thoughts. I need to figure out how to get roon to push DSD above DSD64; with the new Amanero firmware I don't see why my SOtM sms-200ultra (linux-based) shouldn't be able to transmit up to DSD512.  Unfortunately, roon doesn't give me any options above DSD64.  

I'm going to pick up the Abracon OCXO, I think, and find someone to install it for me.  I'm in the Washington, DC area, so it seems like I should be able to find someone to do this easily.  I recall your post with the photos of the RF absorber sheets near the power supplies.  I'll order those from Mouser as well.  

Thanks again!


----------



## b0bb (Jul 10, 2019)

aggielaw said:


> b0bb, many thanks for your thoughts. I need to figure out how to get roon to push DSD above DSD64; with the new Amanero firmware I don't see why my SOtM sms-200ultra (linux-based) shouldn't be able to transmit up to DSD512.  Unfortunately, roon doesn't give me any options above DSD64.
> 
> I'm going to pick up the Abracon OCXO, I think, and find someone to install it for me.  I'm in the Washington, DC area, so it seems like I should be able to find someone to do this easily.  I recall your post with the photos of the RF absorber sheets near the power supplies.  I'll order those from Mouser as well.
> 
> Thanks again!



You have to tell the RoonReady RAAT component in Eunhasu to use DSD512 and native mode. RAAT will then report back to the Roon server and DSD512 will show up.
I use the SMS-200 Ultra Neo with the Amanero.

If you have the Gen2 unit, also ask your installer about low noise power supplies for the OCXO.


----------



## b0bb (Jul 11, 2019)

xiamen said:


> Hmm. Is the problem just with 9038 or all delta sigma dacs. Is it an option to convert all audio files to dsd offline. I am thinking using polysinc-xtr filters will put quite a strain on the CPU/GPU which potentially means more power consumption and may be generate more noise.



It is an issue of limited resources on chip, this limits how many taps a filter can have for example.
The compromise ESS made on the 9038's filters meant  bass performance hit compared to competing designs.
Using HQP means there is no such restriction, and the deep thundering bass was one of the first things I noticed with HQP

My implementation is hqplayerd + NAA.
hqlayerd lives on my central server behind a fiber optic network. It is on a separate electrical circuit in another part of the house.
NAA has a fiber drop from the main network backbbone. NAA talks to the DAC.
The fiber provides the necessary isolation.

Power consumption and temps is not excessive.

Total consumption is about 105W as measured by power meter at the power socket with the setup running, about that of an incandescent lightbulb

The GPUs is consuming about 60W on average from the nvidia-smi trace.
Peak GPU load (%sm) is about 65%.
GPU is a Nvidia Titan V.

Below is the configuration.


----------



## b0bb

xiamen said:


> Is it an option to convert all audio files to dsd offline.



HQPlayerPro does offline conversion.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> 3)
> Move the onboard DSP processing out of the way by using only high rate DSD, do the PCM --> DSD conversion externally if you have PCM, this avoids the internal PCM --> DSD conversion
> Roon or HQPlayer are the ones for the job.


does anybody know of a good plugin for foobar2000 to do PCM --> DSD conversion.


----------



## oldearwax

This page describes PCM to DSD upsampling

https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.co...bar-2000-for-dummies-part-3-new-experimental-


----------



## Forgisound

The LT3042 was bought on eBay. Attached is an image. Hope it's OK?


----------



## Forgisound

Today I have separated the transformer space from the rest of the device. A 3M 1 mm thick panel (used to protect RF and EMI) has slipped between the transformers and the main board. It is fastened between a transformer and a green connector. It seems to me firm. So I did not touch anything in the device. I also cut a piece of this board onto the top of the HDMI connector and wound it over the open rear connector.
It seems to me that the distortions and hardness in the high resolution area are reduced. It seems to me that the sound is a little better. If I'm not mistaken and the background is a bit darker.
I tried that piece of 3M board to stick to the oscillator, but the result was bad so i took it off.


----------



## littlexx26

The 3M absorber only eliminate noise starts from a few hundred megahertz which, like cheap cables, is typical low performace passive device ability. 1K to 1M frequency remains untouched.


----------



## b0bb

Forgisound said:


> The LT3042 was bought on eBay. Attached is an image. Hope it's OK?



That is the correct one.


----------



## b0bb (Jul 14, 2019)

Forgisound said:


> I tried that piece of 3M board to stick to the oscillator, but the result was bad so i took it off.



The 3M absorbers have metal power in them, this will disrupt the magnetic field in and around the XO, the shield just reduces the amount.
You have discovered how sensitive XOs can be to their surrounding magnetic fields.

Use the absorber on the 2 square chips.

There is some scope for experimentation here, I also used the Fairite M6 and @MartinWT used a Laird absorber with a slightly different range.

If you can get those other absorbers give it try to see if the high range 3M sheet is better, of if the Fairite sheet that absorbs at the card operating frequency range (1-25MHz) is the better choice.


----------



## Forgisound

littlexx26 said:


> The 3M absorber only eliminate noise starts from a few hundred megahertz which, like cheap cables, is typical low performace passive device ability. 1K to 1M frequency remains untouched.


OK, but the difference is heard. The board is firm and dense. Transformers are probably damping because the board is pressed tightly against the windings of one of the transformers, along with the green connector. Also, the HDMI connector is damped. So, maybe it's more about damping and less about EMI RF protection.
But the result is a cleaner sound.


----------



## littlexx26 (Jul 14, 2019)

Forgisound said:


> OK, but the difference is heard. The board is firm and dense. Transformers are probably damping because the board is pressed tightly against the windings of one of the transformers, along with the green connector. Also, the HDMI connector is damped. So, maybe it's more about damping and less about EMI RF protection.
> But the result is a cleaner sound.


Certainly it still has effect but not the best results provided it is not full range. Furthermore ferrite is not the best material. The latest effective products are having graphene as one of the effective materials dealing with RF, plus rare earth metals. Ferrite is very old school and has its side effects. So Fair rite M6 which is ferrite is also not recommended.


----------



## VerloK

Does anyone mention to change the RCA Sockets with better ones? Like WBT Nextgen? I don't like Rhodium plated plugs and sockets.

Regards


----------



## Forgisound

littlexx26 said:


> Certainly it still has effect but not the best results provided it is not full range. Furthermore ferrite is not the best material. The latest effective products are having graphene as one of the effective materials dealing with RF, plus rare earth metals. Ferrite is very old school and has its side effects. So Fair rite M6 which is ferrite is also not recommended.


Do you know which absorbers contain graphene and where can they buy it?


----------



## Forgisound

VerloK said:


> Does anyone mention to change the RCA Sockets with better ones? Like WBT Nextgen? I don't like Rhodium plated plugs and sockets.
> 
> Regards


I think, WBT NextGen is a good choice. Do you need to check the diameter of the holes in the chassis of the DAC.
But Cardas is a great choice, and Jinbo did not choose it for no reason. It's rhodium over silver. It is characterized by clarity of sound.


----------



## rettib2001

littlexx26 said:


> No. Yes I am one of the few commented LKS004 bass was not an issue and I am listeniing through speakers. And yes I admit the bass is coming from the speakers+room response. But I disagree the cause of "not an issue" is this. If you feel the bass is weak and thin, first please check your cables. I have used some pure silver cables (made by Lavricables, their top of the line Master series, power cord and speaker cables) and serveral interconnects from Oyaide, DH Labs. They all made the sound quality bad including weak bass, harsh high, glare etc. After I changed to good quality cables whole frequency range sound correct and no distortion. What you are doing now adjusting the sound signature of LKS004 is all based on the cables you are using. I would say the stock LKS004 is everything all right.
> And my Amanero is powered by uptone LPS1.2



Can I ask how you're powering the amanero board via your lps 1.2?

I disconnected the internally mounted power supply hoping that power could simply be provided via the USB cable but this doesn't seem to be the case.


----------



## littlexx26 (Jul 15, 2019)

Forgisound said:


> Do you know which absorbers contain graphene and where can they buy it?


just to name few
https://telos-audio.com.tw/quantum-damping/
https://www.perfectpathtechnologies.com/audio-power-conditioners
you can try omega e mat or smaller alpha e card
I am using this
http://madscientist-audio.com/blackdiscusnano.html
Graphene products certainly are more expensive but the results are very good


----------



## littlexx26 (Jul 15, 2019)

rettib2001 said:


> Can I ask how you're powering the amanero board via your lps 1.2?
> 
> I disconnected the internally mounted power supply hoping that power could simply be provided via the USB cable but this doesn't seem to be the case.


My lks004's amanero board comes without power supply board. As I know this version of LKS004 only sold in Hong Kong, requested by the dealer. He knows this is the best way to power the amanero.

I think there is a switch to do this? I think someone mentioned here before


----------



## rettib2001

littlexx26 said:


> My lks004's amanero board comes without power supply board. As I know this version of LKS004 only sold in Hong Kong, requested by the dealer. He knows this is the best way to power the amanero.
> 
> I think there is a switch to do this? I think someone mentioned here before



 Thanks the quick answer.

I suppose a solution, although not a very pretty one, would be to identify which of the 4 pins that connect the amanero board to the power supply provide the - and + DC and solder a cable to them.


----------



## b0bb

littlexx26 said:


> http://madscientist-audio.com/blackdiscusnano.html








The wires running thru the beads carry up to 250V AC in some countries, someone can get injured if the insulation fails. The 3 wires are bent at an angle and under tension

I cringed when I saw that.


----------



## b0bb (Jul 16, 2019)

littlexx26 said:


> https://telos-audio.com.tw/quantum-damping/



This is truly disappointing, there is no datasheet for this product so any meaningful discussion on how it could be superior is not possible.
A lot of fancy sales lingo though

Graphene is an interesting material but at the end of the day it acts like a metal shield, it has very low resistivity to move the noise energy elsewhere but it is not dissipated,
inorder to get the best performance the graphene sheet has to be grounded

https://www.electrosmogshielding.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=742&CAT_ID=102&numRecordPosition=1>font size=

The manufacturer makes clear the need for a grounding strap because of the nature of Graphene.
RF Attenuation look awesome compared to the Fairrite M6 and the 3M combined!

...But you need to connect the shields on every chip with wires and it creates a new set of problems.

Graphene is not the only game in town, metal loaded epoxy paint can give even better performance.
MG Chemicals these make products
http://www.mgchemicals.com/downloads/comparison-tables/Water-based Conductive Coating Comparison Chart.pdf


First column is ferrite loaded nickel paint, the others are epoxy silver and epoxy nickel

The ferrite paint resistivity is 20X that of the other metal paints (0.027 vs 0.00053)

This means ferrite converts 20X more of the noise energy to heat, once the noise energy is dissipated it is gone,it is now thermal energy that  ends warming up the room by a little bit
The metal paints have very low resistivity so it pushes the noise to the local ground, ground is like the sewer system of the DAC, it still has to move the crap back to the electric utility.

The DAC has to be able to push back to the tap of the local substation transformer and the power plant, eventually the sewer is going to backup if the DAC cannot send all this crap fast enough to the real ground on the generator itself

With ferrite a lot of that unwanted energy is gone and this considerably eases the pressure on  the electrical ground from the listening room all the way back to the generator

In really crude terms the ferrite absorbers eat up 20X of the noise before it reaches ground, graphene and metal shields channel nearly all of it untouched to the main sewer outlet aka ground.
Using the DSD256+ rates the noise shaping adds an increasing amount of aliasing noise that has to dealt with, the higher the rate, the closer it is to full scale
On DSD256 it is about 2/3 fullscale, meaning the noise can be louder than the audio signal.


Ferrite absorbers are so effective that they do not need to be grounded, this is why I use them, people can replicate what I do with a minimum of fuss.

Uptone uses 2 ferrite shielded inductors  in your LPS-1

The tendency of some audiophiles to champion big numbers ignores some of the subtlety on what it takes to really make things work.
Again this comes back to the point of having meaningful data and knowing how to use it.

Your comment about the use of ferrite is quite ignorant.


----------



## littlexx26 (Jul 16, 2019)

b0bb said:


> The wires running thru the beads carry up to 250V AC in some countries, someone can get injured if the insulation fails. The 3 wires are bent at an angle and under tension
> 
> I cringed when I saw that.


thank you for the comments solely based on the appearance. I have 3 of this pc and they are working very good. very quiet and extremely low noise floor. here is 220v


----------



## littlexx26

b0bb said:


> This is truly disappointing, there is no datasheet for this product so any meaningful discussion on how it could be superior is not possible.
> A lot of fancy sales lingo though
> 
> Graphene is an interesting material but at the end of the day it acts like a metal shield, it has very low resistivity to move the noise energy elsewhere but it is not dissipated,
> ...


just like high quality cables I always mentioned, you never heard, you never known. and high quality doesn't mean must be expensive. you have to spend time to read and find what is the best for the price, and listen to it yourself. but certainly 'studio' cables are a no-go


----------



## b0bb

littlexx26 said:


> just like high quality cables I always mentioned, you never heard, you never known. and high quality doesn't mean must be expensive. you have to spend time to read and find what is the best for the price, and listen to it yourself. but certainly 'studio' cables are a no-go



You can go much further than that. I and probably a few others here  can get you started on making output impedance measurements on the DAC, and also how to measure the cable impedance/capacitance/reactance, if you are interested.
This puts at least some basic engineering into your cable selection and matching.

Please do not take personal offense when others disagree with your 'studio' cables view point. 
Lashing out at @aggielaw and using @Forgisound as a proxy when you should be bringing up the RF absorber matter with me is not acceptable.


----------



## littlexx26 (Jul 16, 2019)

b0bb said:


> You can go much further than that. I and probably a few others here  can get you started on making output impedance measurements on the DAC, and also how to measure the cable impedance/capacitance/reactance, if you are interested.
> This puts at least some basic engineering into your cable selection and matching.
> 
> Please do not take personal offense when others disagree with your 'studio' cables view point.
> Lashing out at @aggielaw and using @Forgisound as a proxy when you should be bringing up the RF absorber matter with me is not acceptable.


I understand that you are able to distinguish little differences with different cables
I understand that you are able to judge by just seeing the appearance of the cable.
I do really understand why you have to bring up lots of data, numbers, theories from the paper provided you are able to see and hear some parts of the world.

I am really sorry about that.


----------



## xiamen

rettib2001 said:


> Thanks the quick answer.
> 
> I suppose a solution, although not a very pretty one, would be to identify which of the 4 pins that connect the amanero board to the power supply provide the - and + DC and solder a cable to them.


Another solution is to get an external usb/i2s bridge that uses Amanero https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/l-k-s-audio-usb-100-usb-audio-interface-pcm384-dsd512.html. That cost money of course. Although if you only have the basic Amanero unit (no upgraded clock), this will kill two birds with one stone.


----------



## rettib2001

xiamen said:


> Another solution is to get an external usb/i2s bridge that uses Amanero https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/l-k-s-audio-usb-100-usb-audio-interface-pcm384-dsd512.html. That cost money of course. Although if you only have the basic Amanero unit (no upgraded clock), this will kill two birds with one stone.



I'd forgotten that device even existed. 

When I was shopping around for one I ended up buying a Singxer su-1, which is what I currently use.

b0bb's recent insight into the current state of the amanero board's firmware made me wonder if it had become a viable option and i think it really has.

The Singxer still edges it in terms of sound stage and micro detail but, in my case, I think that is coming from the better power supply. I modded my Su-1 (caps/lt3045 etc) and power it via a lps 1.2.

That's the reason I want to find the best power source for the amanero. 

I didn't realise I could upgrade the clocks on the amanero board?!

Has anybody else done this?


----------



## MartinWT

I can confirm the relatively high output impedance of the LKS phono and balanced outputs.  I first tried the phonos driving my power amp directly, using excellent Black Cat Airwave 3202 interconnects and variable output volume.  Very poor, limp and with a tilt towards the treble.  It simply cannot drive a power amp well.  I switched to using the XLR outputs into my Pass preamp and that was much better with the power and slam returning.  Even so, I rejected first Townshend DCT-300 XLR interconnects as having some glare, followed by Townshend Fractal F1 XLRs which sounded better but still had a hot treble.  I also tried Yannis ConnectLitz XLRs and they just sounded different.  Finally, when I tried Coherent 6D XLR interconnects, the results where what I wanted - a balanced and powerful sound with very extended bass and phenomenal midrange clarity without glare.

This to me proves that the LKS doesn't have inherent glare, but it does have an output stage more susceptible to cable performance than many other DACs.


----------



## littlexx26 (Jul 20, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> I can confirm the relatively high output impedance of the LKS phono and balanced outputs.  I first tried the phonos driving my power amp directly, using excellent Black Cat Airwave 3202 interconnects and variable output volume.  Very poor, limp and with a tilt towards the treble.  It simply cannot drive a power amp well.  I switched to using the XLR outputs into my Pass preamp and that was much better with the power and slam returning.  Even so, I rejected first Townshend DCT-300 XLR interconnects as having some glare, followed by Townshend Fractal F1 XLRs which sounded better but still had a hot treble.  I also tried Yannis ConnectLitz XLRs and they just sounded different.  Finally, when I tried Coherent 6D XLR interconnects, the results where what I wanted - a balanced and powerful sound with very extended bass and phenomenal midrange clarity without glare.
> 
> This to me proves that the LKS doesn't have inherent glare, but it does have an output stage more susceptible to cable performance than many other DACs.


6D costs £3000.00 1m. And yes cables do matter. LKS004 is very sensitive to cables.


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> 6D costs £3000.00 1m. And yes cables do matter. LKS004 is very sensitive to cables.


Are you also saying the LKS004 doesnt cut itcas a preamp?


----------



## littlexx26

xiamen said:


> Are you also saying the LKS004 doesnt cut itcas a preamp?


I use it as a pure DAC only


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> This to me proves that the LKS doesn't have inherent glare, but it does have an output stage more susceptible to cable performance than many other DACs.



Was this test done with the stock DAC or the one with the modified XO board?
As an aside, what it the crossover frequency between the tweeter and midrange of your Usher speakers?


----------



## MartinWT

For me, the LKS does not work well as a preamp.  I use it as a pure DAC with fixed volume.

The cable comparisons were performed before the modified clock was installed.  That just brought the performance further up (I had already swapped out the 575 for a TXC crystal at that point).

The Usher Dancer Be-20 crosses over at 432Hz (bass to mid) and 3.53kHz (mid to treble).


----------



## Lennym

MartinWT said:


> I can confirm the relatively high output impedance of the LKS phono and balanced outputs.  I first tried the phonos driving my power amp directly, using excellent Black Cat Airwave 3202 interconnects and variable output volume.  Very poor, limp and with a tilt towards the treble.  It simply cannot drive a power amp well.  I switched to using the XLR outputs into my Pass preamp and that was much better with the power and slam returning.  Even so, I rejected first Townshend DCT-300 XLR interconnects as having some glare, followed by Townshend Fractal F1 XLRs which sounded better but still had a hot treble.  I also tried Yannis ConnectLitz XLRs and they just sounded different.  Finally, when I tried Coherent 6D XLR interconnects, the results where what I wanted - a balanced and powerful sound with very extended bass and phenomenal midrange clarity without glare.
> 
> This to me proves that the LKS doesn't have inherent glare, but it does have an output stage more susceptible to cable performance than many other DACs.



Cables are extremely system sensitive.  Apparently you may have found a cable that rolls the highs in a manner that's pleasing.

I have not found the LKS to have a disconcerting treble at all, at least not when it's running at its best.  By that I mean that its performance to be at its very finest seems to depend upon the quality of the electric current.  When it's at its best I just want to listen more; when it's not my sessions are shorter.  I live in an urban area and I don't have a very sophisticated power set-up.  My listening experience is live un-amplified concerts and vinyl with a 3 stage tube + tube rectification front end.  The LKS seems to be more sensitive to the current than is my vinyl listening.

For the record my cables are very well broken in Coincindent from LKS to pre-amp and Discovery (long) from pre to amp.  Both are balanced.  I have not experimented with the cable running from the LKS.  I also use Coincident, but unbalanced, from phono pre to pre.  Perhaps my cables roll the highs.  Who knows?

Has anyone experienced this sensitivity to the current, that is changing performance at different times, everything else the same?  suggestions?


----------



## MartinWT

Whatever the Coherent cables do, they do not roll off the treble. In fact the LKS treble is very well extended and I get all of that, just not any hardness.

I also get very little variation in playback, but then I've used a regenerator for a number of years and they tend to eliminate sound quality variations due to power.


----------



## Lennym

MartinWT said:


> Whatever the Coherent cables do, they do not roll off the treble. In fact the LKS treble is very well extended and I get all of that, just not any hardness.



Assuming that everything is/was properly and professional shielded, just what do you think the "hardness" *is* that was removed by these wires?


----------



## Forgisound

I use single ended AQ Amazon.  High tones are perfect.  But that depends on the whole setup.


----------



## littlexx26

Interconnect is just one part of the chain. Power cord, USB cable and all cables at other components play their roles as well. In the case here LKS004 the interconnect contributes around 80%.  Power cords, USB, power cords in other components and speaker cables all make the system sounds different. Power conditioning also very important. Every cable company says their cables are rejecting noise effectively, but the truth is not. Different cables have different performance.


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> The cable comparisons were performed before the modified clock was installed.  That just brought the performance further up (I had already swapped out the 575 for a TXC crystal at that point).
> 
> The Usher Dancer Be-20 crosses over at 432Hz (bass to mid) and 3.53kHz (mid to treble).



Removing the 575 takes away most of the glare. This is mostly in the upper midrange region, the mid-to-treble crossover likely had a hand in helping with the suppression.


----------



## b0bb

Lennym said:


> ...
> 
> I live in an urban area and I don't have a very sophisticated power set-up.  My listening experience is live un-amplified concerts and vinyl with a 3 stage tube + tube rectification front end.  The LKS seems to be more sensitive to the current than is my vinyl listening.
> 
> ...



Yes, very annoying

I use an industrial powerline tracking filter from Control Concepts part of Emerson, pretty much eliminates the problem and stops my power conditioners from buzzing.

https://www.borderstates.com/Catalog/1E/1E60/1E6035/COMY00001

They stopped making these but you can get them on Ebay

The current tracking filter line from Emerson is even better but at 5X the cost
https://www.emerson.com/en-us/catal...otection-active-tracking-filtering/solahd-stf


----------



## MartinWT

Lennym said:


> Assuming that everything is/was properly and professional shielded, just what do you think the "hardness" *is* that was removed by these wires?


I don't think the Coherent cables remove anything.  I think my other cables _added_ some hardness.

The best cable is no cable at all.


----------



## xiamen

MartinWT said:


> I don't think the Coherent cables remove anything.  I think my other cables _added_ some hardness.
> 
> The best cable is no cable at all.


You certainly have expensive taste in your front end components with  Usher Dancer Be-20, $4000 per m cables. I am not in that league. When you say your preamp is pass preamp, do you mean one of the Pass Labs XP's? If it is, then I am not surprised at all it's better than LKS004 as a preamp (In my experience, preamp is a significant element in the chain).This will likely reveal any minute faults from your back end server plus LKS004 or from the recording itself. In some way, I am a little surprised that you did not go for something more upmarket than the LKS.


----------



## Forgisound

Does anyone know DSD record happens within the ESS 9038PRO?


----------



## MartinWT

xiamen said:


> You certainly have expensive taste in your front end components with  Usher Dancer Be-20, $4000 per m cables. I am not in that league. When you say your preamp is pass preamp, do you mean one of the Pass Labs XP's? If it is, then I am not surprised at all it's better than LKS004 as a preamp (In my experience, preamp is a significant element in the chain).This will likely reveal any minute faults from your back end server plus LKS004 or from the recording itself. In some way, I am a little surprised that you did not go for something more upmarket than the LKS.


I have the taste for high quality reproduction - not necessarily expensive unless that's what it takes.  For instance, my I2S streamer is based on a Raspberry Pi.  Yes, my preamp is a Pass Labs XP-20 and is a superb preamp.  The Ushers are the best speakers I've ever heard.

Why go more upmarket than the LKS?  It uses dual 9038s in a good configuration and is well made.  What DAC offers more?

Much more than the components I have, great sound depends on room treatment, supports, mains power quality, RFI/EMI filtering.  Without attention to these, you cannot yield the best that your system can produce, so it's not all about money.


----------



## littlexx26

MartinWT said:


> I have the taste for high quality reproduction - not necessarily expensive unless that's what it takes.  For instance, my I2S streamer is based on a Raspberry Pi.  Yes, my preamp is a Pass Labs XP-20 and is a superb preamp.  The Ushers are the best speakers I've ever heard.
> 
> Why go more upmarket than the LKS?  It uses dual 9038s in a good configuration and is well made.  What DAC offers more?
> 
> Much more than the components I have, great sound depends on room treatment, supports, mains power quality, RFI/EMI filtering.  Without attention to these, you cannot yield the best that your system can produce, so it's not all about money.


What speaker cables you using? Recently I acquire a pair of LS-50 by Colin Wonfor and they are superb. He said it is better than anything he designed when he was in Tellurium Q and better than anything TQ offers today. I never heard anything from TQ but I could not find any fault with the cables.


----------



## MartinWT

littlexx26 said:


> What speaker cables you using? Recently I acquire a pair of LS-50 by Colin Wonfor and they are superb. He said it is better than anything he designed when he was in Tellurium Q and better than anything TQ offers today. I never heard anything from TQ but I could not find any fault with the cables.


I used to use TQ Ultra Black speaker cables but I now use Coherent 6D speaker cables and BD jumpers.  I also use 6D power cables for each component and a BD cable from my custom 60A radial circuit to the regenerator.


----------



## Xoverman

I need help.
This weekend I had an stunning experience. I startend plaing around with the HQPlayer. First I used me LAB Exprimentel Stereo system.
The DAC can only handel 192KHz . So I set upsampling to 192Khz, and played with the filters. Nothing super exciting happend, until i reached
sinc-M !!!! Wow. It was as if the Window opend and I was looking into the concert hall. 
On Sunnday I then installed everything an my main system, wich is very very resolving, and mad the test.
First to get adjusted with Foobar and then switched to HQPlayer.  Boooommm !!!
Soundstage got just a little bit bigger, but depth, clarity and Focus on Instruments was jut like real !!!
It was a very strange feeling. As if the DAC output bypasses the Speakers, the room and ears, and gets connected directly to the brain.
It sounds so real that it scares me. 
After listening to tons of music I then tryed diferent settings. But 192KHz and sinc-m is the only setting that gives this effect.
I hope someone can explane what is happening here.


----------



## MartinWT

Is "Sinc-M" the same as SLOW-M in the LKS?

If so, it's the Slow roll-off Minimum Phase filter which I use as it sounds the best to my ears.


----------



## Lennym

MartinWT said:


> I don't think the Coherent cables remove anything.  I think my other cables _added_ some hardness.



These passive components added something?  I don't think so.


----------



## MartinWT

Lennym said:


> These passive components added something?  I don't think so.


Cables are complex transmission lines.  They can add nonlinear distortions.


----------



## Quadman (Jul 22, 2019)

Xoverman said:


> It sounds so real that it scares me.
> After listening to tons of music I then tryed diferent settings. But 192KHz and sinc-m is the only setting that gives this effect.
> I hope someone can explane what is happening here.



HQPlayer is the gold standard for upsampling, it just sounds better than the others, and I am still running HQP 3.xx, I have not upgraded to 4.xx.  For perhaps a year I used Poly-Sinc-XTR-mp-2s as my main filter it was so organic so real.  Then this year I started playing with others.  I liked Poly-Sinc-ext2, then I went to Closed-Form-16M and enjoyed that for a while then I tried sinc-M,  OMG now we are talking it was XTR-MP-2s but more organic and full, more transparent more dynamic.  I fell hard for it.  Sinc-M is a linear Phase filter, with a very sharp cutoff and high degree of attenuation.  It also has 1 million taps and requires a very powerful CPU and a GPU for cuda offload at least at DSD512.  Now I ask why are you only running up to 192K PCM, it is DSD512 where the magic happens try that and you will never go back.

Really with this dac the goal should be DSD512, it sounds so much better, why mess with the other stuff.  (BTW, my CPU and GPU cannot do the non-2s XTR-MP filters they are to intensive for my rig so I have not heard what some say are the best sounding of all.)


----------



## Xoverman

Quadman said:


> HQPlayer is the gold standard for upsampling, it just sounds better than the others, and I am still running HQP 3.xx, I have not upgraded to 4.xx.  For perhaps a year I used Poly-Sinc-XTR-mp-2s as my main filter it was so organic so real.  Then this year I started playing with others.  I liked Poly-Sinc-ext2, then I went to Closed-Form-16M and enjoyed that for a while then I tried sinc-M,  OMG now we are talking it was XTR-MP-2s but more organic and full, more transparent more dynamic.  I fell hard for it.  Sinc-M is a linear Phase filter, with a very sharp cutoff and high degree of attenuation.  It also has 1 million taps and requires a very powerful CPU and a GPU for cuda offload at least at DSD512.  Now I ask why are you only running up to 192K PCM, it is DSD512 where the magic happens try that and you will never go back.
> 
> Really with this dac the goal should be DSD512, it sounds so much better, why mess with the other stuff.  (BTW, my CPU and GPU cannot do the non-2s XTR-MP filters they are to intensive for my rig so I have not heard what some say are the best sounding of all.)


I tried different filters and also higher frequencys, but only 192KHz and sinc-m had the magic with my lks 004.
Hopefully  I can try DSD upsampling next weekend.


----------



## Xoverman

Ps.  Maybe someone can verify the experience I had.


----------



## oldearwax

Yes. HQP+192K+sinc-M --> LKS004 is spacious.. instruments (like trumpets) more pronounce.. vocal image well defined.
BUT minus bass (b0bb also points this out earlier), bass cello disappeared in Vivaldi's summer concerto !!


----------



## MartinWT

Interesting to read some comments here about bass from the LKS.  Mine produces extraordinary, potent and very extended bass down into infra-bass air movements.  It's the best DAC I've ever heard for bass.

I had a Topping D70 on my system a couple of weeks ago.  Not bad, verging on good in the midrange, but the bass was lightweight in comparison and the dynamics a little bit restrained.


----------



## xiamen

MartinWT said:


> Interesting to read some comments here about bass from the LKS.  Mine produces extraordinary, potent and very extended bass down into infra-bass air movements.  It's the best DAC I've ever heard for bass.
> 
> I had a Topping D70 on my system a couple of weeks ago.  Not bad, verging on good in the midrange, but the bass was lightweight in comparison and the dynamics a little bit restrained.


What other dacs have you compared the lks to. D70 is less than half the price of the lks004. I know price is not everything. But on the other hand, there is also a saying that you get what you pay for.


----------



## MartinWT

The Topping is significant as it uses dual AKM DACs, which some people prefer to the ESS Sabres.  To my ears, they are softer without the extreme dynamic edges of the 9038s.

I have heard a variety of DACs in my system, brought over by friends.  Not all are memorable but a Chord Hugo and Novafidelity X45 all-in-one stand out for sound quality.  Nothing has yet matched the LKS, so I guess I chose right.


----------



## littlexx26

I wonder if we very few of those using high quality cables are the only ones comment the bass is good.


----------



## oldearwax

MartinWT said:


> Interesting to read some comments here about bass from the LKS.  Mine produces extraordinary, potent and very extended bass down into infra-bass air movements.  It's the best DAC I've ever heard for bass.
> 
> .



The hardware LKS has bass.  
DSP with HQP (192K+sinc-M)  somehow de-emphasizes the lower end.
DSP with foobar (176K) is more balanced to my ears, but lacks the nicer quality of HQP.


----------



## MartinWT

I use Qobuz Studio and the bass is excellent in everything from 16/44 Red Book up to 24/192 streams, recording dependent of course.


----------



## Xoverman

oldearwax said:


> Yes. HQP+192K+sinc-M --> LKS004 is spacious.. instruments (like trumpets) more pronounce.. vocal image well defined.
> BUT minus bass (b0bb also points this out earlier), bass cello disappeared in Vivaldi's summer concerto !!


That was also my first impression, but then I listened more closely.
The Bass is only more pressies, less boomy. More transparent .


----------



## Xoverman

Today I had the chance to listen to an Accuphase dp 560 and a Chord Hugo in my system. 
The LKS 004 clearly outperformed the Accuphase. 
The Hugo was a little bit more transparent in soundstage and depths comperd to the LKS when fed with Foobar.
When fed with HQPLAYER 192KHz sinc-m, the LKS sounded way better.


----------



## highstream

I read the first 21 pages and didn't see one thing mentioned that especially interests me - tone. On the cool to warm continuum, where would you place the LKS 004? I realize this is a headphones forum, but am especially interested in the answer using speakers. Thanks,


----------



## littlexx26

highstream said:


> I read the first 21 pages and didn't see one thing mentioned that especially interests me - tone. On the cool to warm continuum, where would you place the LKS 004? I realize this is a headphones forum, but am especially interested in the answer using speakers. Thanks,


neutral in my system including cables


----------



## Lennym

littlexx26 said:


> neutral in my system including cables



Same here.  Nothing exotic about my XLR cables.  Just took them off an Oppo and use them with the LKS.


----------



## highstream (Jul 26, 2019)

I ask because I’m a fan of medium warmth tonalky vs. what’s called neutral. I’ve found that cables alone, at least not good ones, can’t make up the difference. I’m currently using a modified Oppo 203 (coax, no XLR) to a Directstream dac, which with an iFi spdif iPurifier and Paul Hynes LPS is a gorgeous set up.  But for my tastes could it use a bit more warmth and a little less digitalis. So among other things I’m keeping my eyes out for another quality dac, and wasn’t aware of the LKS until poking around on the ‘net yesterday.


----------



## littlexx26

highstream said:


> I ask because I’m a fan of medium warmth tonalky vs. what’s called neutral. I’ve found that cables alone, at least not good ones, can’t make up the difference. I’m currently using a modified Oppo 203 (coax, no XLR) to a Directstream dac, which with an iFi spdif iPurifier and Paul Hynes LPS is a gorgeous set up.  But for my tastes could it use a bit more warmth and a little less digitalis. So among other things I’m keeping my eyes out for another quality dac, and wasn’t aware of the LKS until poking around on the ‘net yesterday.


For that you can try the cables designed by Colin Wonfor, one of the founders of Tellurium Q. No harshness no glare no digital. Very organic without sacrifying details and resolution. https://www.abcaudio.biz/


----------



## aggielaw

highstream said:


> I ask because I’m a fan of medium warmth tonalky vs. what’s called neutral. I’ve found that cables alone, at least not good ones, can’t make up the difference. I’m currently using a modified Oppo 203 (coax, no XLR) to a Directstream dac, which with an iFi spdif iPurifier and Paul Hynes LPS is a gorgeous set up.  But for my tastes could it use a bit more warmth and a little less digitalis. So among other things I’m keeping my eyes out for another quality dac, and wasn’t aware of the LKS until poking around on the ‘net yesterday.



I've not heard the DAC myself, but the comments I've read from Kitsune-tuned Holo Spring DAC owners suggest you would be very happy with that DAC.  I have some amazing gold cables from a small company in Texas called "Kool Kables" that achieve what you're looking for, but they rarely come up used.  You might look at Kubala-Sosna Emotion cables.  A single power cord can get most systems plenty warm for folks. The Emotion should be cheap these days, as it is an older product line.


----------



## aggielaw

I'm going to install the copper shield in my LKS this weekend.  I have a couple 12"x12" sheets.  I've read here that it's important to ground the copper shield.  Is this done by drilling through the copper and chassis and placing a screw through both, or is there a better way to do this? 

Also, how worthwhile is it to make a copper wall between the back of the LCD screen and the circuit board?


----------



## highstream

aggielaw - Do you have a website for kool kables? The only listing I found for that name is in the UK. Thanks.


----------



## aggielaw

highstream said:


> aggielaw - Do you have a website for kool kables? The only listing I found for that name is in the UK. Thanks.



I apologize - it appears Kool Kables is no longer in business.  The website was www.koolcables.com.


----------



## MartinWT

In stock form the LKS was slightly on the cool side of neutral, but not overly so. As modded, mine is as neutral as I can identify, using voice and piano as tonality tests.

Of course, soundstage, dynamics and bass extension are all improved, too.


----------



## Lennym

highstream said:


> I ask because I’m a fan of medium warmth tonalky vs. what’s called neutral. I’ve found that cables alone, at least not good ones, can’t make up the difference. I’m currently using a modified Oppo 203 (coax, no XLR) to a Directstream dac, which with an iFi spdif iPurifier and Paul Hynes LPS is a gorgeous set up.  But for my tastes could it use a bit more warmth and a little less digitalis. So among other things I’m keeping my eyes out for another quality dac, and wasn’t aware of the LKS until poking around on the ‘net yesterday.



IMO you should not seek warmth in your electronics, nor should you look for cables that act as tone controls.  All of that should be as neutral as can be.  Warmth should be found in loudspeaker, including, sub-woofer, and room set-up.  I am not a major user of earphones, but I suspect that in my analysis they play the role of loudspeaker and room.   If you are experiencing digitalis, you might look to poorly performing digital components or to power supply issues.


----------



## Lennym

aggielaw said:


> I'm going to install the copper shield in my LKS this weekend.  I have a couple 12"x12" sheets.  I've read here that it's important to ground the copper shield.  Is this done by drilling through the copper and chassis and placing a screw through both, or is there a better way to do this?
> 
> Also, how worthwhile is it to make a copper wall between the back of the LCD screen and the circuit board?



I did not ground mine and I am very happy with the result.  So you might try that and then if someone suggests a good grounding path try that later.

I turn the LCD screen off all the time.  Seems to me that's the easiest solution.


----------



## highstream

To me, it's extremely arbitrary to say find warmth in speakers but not other components. I know some people believe this or that gear - cables being the typical example - shouldn't be used for tuning a system. I don't agree and don't see the point of those discussions. In any case, I was using "digitalis" loosely, meaning there's a certain kind of sound that seems digital, vs. for example the range of what tube equipment provides (and it is quite a range these days). But then some solid state equipment is tuned on the warm side, including the dac I currently use, the DirectStream. I was curious about the LKS, since in my reading tone was something never mentioned. Thanks to those that have responded to that question.


----------



## Forgisound

I consider that the role of hardware is to convey the signal in its original form. 

Any coloring of HiFi equipment leaves us from the essence of the high fidelity concept. 

Who likes the warmth of the sound should be sought in the recordings.


----------



## xiamen

Forgisound said:


> I consider that the role of hardware is to convey the signal in its original form.
> 
> Any coloring of HiFi equipment leaves us from the essence of the high fidelity concept.
> 
> Who likes the warmth of the sound should be sought in the recordings.


I agree. If anything, I would seek warmth using software filters. DSD upsampling is also considered by some to make the audio less digital. If you have to achieve this through hardware, I would look at adding more tube components in the chain.


----------



## MartinWT

Adding warmth using tube stages is just another way of adding distortions. I want my signal unadulterated, as close to the master tape as it can be.

It's in the supports, power treatment, EMI/RFI suppression and cables that you can tune your system for best sound, provided your components are neutral to start with.


----------



## xiamen

MartinWT said:


> Adding warmth using tube stages is just another way of adding distortions. I want my signal unadulterated, as close to the master tape as it can be.
> 
> It's in the supports, power treatment, EMI/RFI suppression and cables that you can tune your system for best sound, provided your components are neutral to start with.


To each his own. Distortion is not a bad thing for some https://www.waves.com/add-harmonic-distortion-for-analog-warmth.


----------



## Lennym

xiamen said:


> To each his own. Distortion is not a bad thing for some https://www.waves.com/add-harmonic-distortion-for-analog-warmth.



What a bunch of nonsense.  The article is about the distortion of sound while recording popular music.  Intentional distortion in this context is ubiquitous.  Nothing new here.  Tube guitar amps have been used for several generations because when overloaded they produce a distortion which a lot of people like.  Not to mention distortion switches used by many pop musicians.

That has nothing to do with distortion in the reproduction of music.  Though I will admit that some people like the distortion produced by old, old tube electronics.  That, however, is long out of style.


----------



## aggielaw

Gents,

As always, you each have good points, and your opinions on these matters reflect that of large groups of audiophiles.  However, we're drifting a little off topic, I think. 

I, for one, would hate to lose the tremendously valuable insights each of you provides for any reason, but it would be particularly tragic if it came to pass over something off topic.

Best regards to you both.


----------



## Xoverman

aggielaw said:


> I'm going to install the copper shield in my LKS this weekend.  I have a couple 12"x12" sheets.  I've read here that it's important to ground the copper shield.  Is this done by drilling through the copper and chassis and placing a screw through both, or is there a better way to do this?
> 
> Also, how worthwhile is it to make a copper wall between the back of the LCD screen and the circuit board?


I grounded my sheild by putting it under the transformer screws. It's importent to ground ! otherwise you have a receiver and transmitter for HF at the same time.


----------



## MartinWT

I grounded mine to the transformer mounting screw tag already holding the green ground leads.


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 9, 2019)

Simple yet effective. No mess no skills needed. Just stick onto it. If you don't like, just remove it. Results are very very very good. No need scientific data. Just listen.
The texture of instruments, human voice is so detailed and lush without sacrificing resolution. And the harshness and glare are lowered even further. Background is darker. It feels like every single note has its' own dynamic, its' own 3D space.
The more tweaks I use, the more I believe the harshness is not caused by the 575 clock.


----------



## Xoverman

littlexx26 said:


> Simple yet effective. No mess No skills needed. Just stick onto it. If you don't like, just remove it. Results are very very very good. No need scientific data. Just listen.
> The texture of instruments, human voice is so detailed and lush without sacrificing resolution. And the harshness and glare are lowered even further. Background is darker. It feels like every single note has its' own dynamic, its' own 3D space.
> The more tweaks I use, the more I believe the harshness is not caused by the 575 clock.


is that Sorbothan ?


----------



## VerloK

And the question is, what is this?^^


----------



## littlexx26

Xoverman said:


> is that Sorbothan ?


No! It is Black Discus from Mad Scientist Audio.
http://madscientist-audio.com/blackdiscusnano.html

This donut shape hasn't been revealed yet. He just sell to me first.


----------



## littlexx26

And I have upgraded the fuse as well. This is better than SR blue.


----------



## VerloK

littlexx26 said:


> No! It is Black Discus from Mad Scientist Audio.
> http://madscientist-audio.com/blackdiscusnano.html
> 
> This donut shape hasn't been revealed yet. He just sell to me first.



LoL

I orderd a few NaNo Sample Sets from them and placed them yesterday. 
Good Results. Maybe the samples are to small but I will order the donuts too. 

Regards


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 9, 2019)

VerloK said:


> LoL
> 
> I orderd a few NaNo Sample Sets from them and placed them yesterday.
> Good Results. Maybe the samples are to small but I will order the donuts too.
> ...


I have Black Discus Nano everywhere in my system. IEC power input, speaker output, interconnect output, LPS 1.2, notebook transformer, micro iusb, igalvanic, ipurifier...even the switch of the room light


----------



## Lennym

littlexx26 said:


> No! It is Black Discus from Mad Scientist Audio.
> http://madscientist-audio.com/blackdiscusnano.html
> 
> This donut shape hasn't been revealed yet. He just sell to me first.



Don't keep us in suspense.  How much do they cost?


----------



## littlexx26

70 USD for one introductory offer


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 9, 2019)

I think Mad Scientist will not mind I post here. This is how he did to his LKS004


----------



## aggielaw

Has anyone else noticed vocals becoming a bit recessed after significantly reducing the RF/EMI issue in the LKS?  I still enjoy a "net gain" in SQ with the mods in place, and will mitigate by tweaking the parametric equalizer in roon.  The recessed vocals are an interesting side effect, though.  My desire to understand causes and effects in electronics makes me wish I'd chosen to be an electrical engineer early in life!

Many thanks to @b0bb for recent guidance on mods, and to all who have, and continue to, post great information here!


----------



## Xoverman

Has anyone ever comperd JPlay agenst HQPlayer with the LKS ?


----------



## Xoverman

Hi, just wanted you to know. I successfully managed to run any EC modulators to DSD256 with a AMD Ryzen™ 5 2400GE . Filter offloaded to RTX 2080.

I can easely overclock the 2400GE to 4 GHz with AMD Ryzen Master.

Power consumption of the CPU is at 40 W. I can play all Filters in this constellation. 

cheers


----------



## b0bb

aggielaw said:


> Has anyone else noticed vocals becoming a bit recessed after significantly reducing the RF/EMI issue in the LKS?  I still enjoy a "net gain" in SQ with the mods in place, and will mitigate by tweaking the parametric equalizer in roon.  The recessed vocals are an interesting side effect, though.  My desire to understand causes and effects in electronics makes me wish I'd chosen to be an electrical engineer early in life!
> 
> Many thanks to @b0bb for recent guidance on mods, and to all who have, and continue to, post great information here!


There are some areas of the DAC that should not have any absorbers like the Crystal and I/V converter input.
If you are using the 3M AB5100 + Fairite M6 combo then readjusting the proportion may help alter the tonal balance

If you post a photo of your mods, I might be able to offer more comments.


----------



## MartinWT

aggielaw said:


> Has anyone else noticed vocals becoming a bit recessed after significantly reducing the RF/EMI issue in the LKS?


I have noticed a general lowering of the 'up-front' soundstage of my LKS.  This is because the RFI/EMI reduction has dramatically opened up soundstage depth and rather than projecting everything forwards, they are presented in a more natural location than before.


----------



## Thenewguy007

littlexx26 said:


> And I have upgraded the fuse as well. This is better than SR blue.



What's the fuse name & where can it be bought?

Would you say they are speced better than Padis fuses?

https://www.ritsos.com/product/Hd_N/PADIS-FS20-Series-Fuses-Slow-Blow-T-5x20mm


----------



## littlexx26

Thenewguy007 said:


> What's the fuse name & where can it be bought?
> 
> Would you say they are speced better than Padis fuses?
> 
> https://www.ritsos.com/product/Hd_N/PADIS-FS20-Series-Fuses-Slow-Blow-T-5x20mm


I did not hear to Padis fuse so no comment. The Zero fuse is selling in Hong Kong around 260 USD.
https://www.hiendymall.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=43_48&product_id=152


----------



## jazzk

Mad scientist has his black nano donuts in stock now. He has a special discount for head fi. You get 15% off your order with the discount code headfidonutspecial.  I’ve ordered 2 donuts so I will let u guys know how they work when I get them.


----------



## jazzk

I found the zero fuse on eBay much cheaper!


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 14, 2019)

Black discus can be put right on top of the clock!!! ABSOLUTELY no side effects like ferrites, 3m sheet etc. And no need to ground!!!


----------



## littlexx26

jazzk said:


> Mad scientist has his black nano donuts in stock now. He has a special discount for head fi. You get 15% off your order with the discount code headfidonutspecial.  I’ve ordered 2 donuts so I will let u guys know how they work when I get them.


Mad Scientist sold me at 70USD each, higher than 79*.085=67.15. And he did not say thank you to me introducing his products here.


----------



## littlexx26

jazzk said:


> I found the zero fuse on eBay much cheaper!


link please. I couldnt find on ebay


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 14, 2019)

jazzk said:


> I found the zero fuse on eBay much cheaper!


compared to the stock fuse (and provided you have correct sounding high quality non studio grade cables in the system), zero fuse is much much much better in every aspect. Bigger sound stage, deeper and more powerful bass (very huge bass), more natural human voice, beautiful, fluid and extreme sky high treble. The stock fuse is slow and colored and has harshness and glare. I will say zero fuse is perfect, until I encounter another one better than it.


----------



## jazzk

Flashlight_eshop is the seller on eBay. They have several different power house fuses for sell. Not sure if they have the exact before mentioned fuse. All around 129 to 149.   It is a Hong Kong seller.


----------



## jazzk

littlexx26 said:


> Mad Scientist sold me at 70USD each, higher than 79*.085=67.15. And he did not say thank you to me introducing his products here.


He should have!


----------



## littlexx26

jazzk said:


> Flashlight_eshop is the seller on eBay. They have several different power house fuses for sell. Not sure if they have the exact before mentioned fuse. All around 129 to 149.   It is a Hong Kong seller.


Maybe because I am in Hong Kong, I manage to locate the shop, but it shows zero items selling


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 14, 2019)

jazzk said:


> Flashlight_eshop is the seller on eBay. They have several different power house fuses for sell. Not sure if they have the exact before mentioned fuse. All around 129 to 149.   It is a Hong Kong seller.


and make sure zero fuse has two versions, the one I showed is new version, with audiophile series label at top left corner, old version is without the label. sounds not as good


----------



## jazzk

On the us ebay flashlight eshop has over 1000 items for sale.


----------



## littlexx26

jazzk said:


> On the us ebay flashlight eshop has over 1000 items for sale.


can you capture the ebay zero page with price?


----------



## rikm

jazzk said:


> He should have!


----------



## rikm

is it one of these?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-USA-Po...tinum-Fuse-High-End-Audio-Fuses-/222886792371

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-USA-Po...ladium-Fuse-High-End-Audio-Fuses/223591617159


----------



## littlexx26

rikm said:


> is it one of these?
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-USA-Po...tinum-Fuse-High-End-Audio-Fuses-/222886792371
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-USA-Po...ladium-Fuse-High-End-Audio-Fuses/223591617159


these are lower performance. zero is the best


----------



## Baten

Too much fuse and diy discussion lol
:unsubscribes: (no offense, you guys have fun. )


----------



## Lennym

littlexx26 said:


> Simple yet effective. No mess no skills needed. Just stick onto it. If you don't like, just remove it. Results are very very very good. No need scientific data. Just listen.
> The texture of instruments, human voice is so detailed and lush without sacrificing resolution. And the harshness and glare are lowered even further. Background is darker. It feels like every single note has its' own dynamic, its' own 3D space.
> The more tweaks I use, the more I believe the harshness is not caused by the 575 clock.


This is about the Mad Scientist donuts.  Looking at your picture, It looks like you have not used a copper mod to shield the analog section and each other from the transformers' RF.   Since I have already done that, and achieved a good  result, the question is whether the donuts added to that will still have a beneficial effect.  Or is it simply another way of accomplishing the same thing?  Anyone doing both?


----------



## sanvara

jazzk said:


> I found the zero fuse on eBay much cheaper!



I'm not seeing the audiophile version of the zero fuse on Ebay. Can you provide the Ebay auction number?

An audiophile fuse made a very noticeable difference with the Gustard U16 so I'd like to try it, but not at $260.


----------



## jazzk

I found the power house fuses on flashlight_eshop on eBay but not the powerhouse zero fuse. They had four other power house fuses but not the zero.  Sorry to mislead my fellow head fi guys


----------



## MartinWT

I have ordered 2 Black Discus Nano Donuts for my two LKS toroids. Bob seems a very friendly chap and I used the Head-Fi discount voucher code.

I look forward to trying them out. If they are successful, I have two more toroids in my preamp and streamer power supplies.


----------



## Lennym (Aug 15, 2019)

littlexx26 said:


> 70 USD for one introductory offer



That was about the NANO Donut, only 6 days ago.  The introduction went pretty  quickly.  It's now priced at $79 or 2 for $149.


----------



## MartinWT

Yes, but the Head-Fi voucher code gives you 15% discount.


----------



## littlexx26

too good have to buy 3 more. for UK plug


----------



## ti5002000

Hi Guys 

A little help if someone know the answer.

Anyone knows what are the value of the blue capacitors in the image? 0.1 uf ? ( 0.1 uf is just for example so you can know which value i am talking about)


----------



## Lennym

MartinWT said:


> I have ordered 2 Black Discus Nano Donuts for my two LKS toroids. Bob seems a very friendly chap and I used the Head-Fi discount voucher code.
> 
> I look forward to trying them out. If they are successful, I have two more toroids in my preamp and streamer power supplies.


IIRC you also were using copper shields, as do I.  Do you still?  Please report back on the result of adding the donuts.  Thanks.


----------



## MartinWT

Lennym said:


> IIRC you also were using copper shields, as do I.  Do you still?  Please report back on the result of adding the donuts.  Thanks.


Yes, I still have the copper shields around each transformer and they will be staying as their effect is good.

I will report on the Donuts as soon as I have received and installed them.


----------



## MartinWT

littlexx26 said:


> too good have to buy 3 more. for UK plug


Have you compared them with any of the SR fuses?

I have an SR Red in each component (LKS included) and an SR Blue in the input to my PS Audio P10 regenerator.


----------



## littlexx26

MartinWT said:


> Have you compared them with any of the SR fuses?
> 
> I have an SR Red in each component (LKS included) and an SR Blue in the input to my PS Audio P10 regenerator.


Yes Zero smokes SR Blue by a big margin in every aspect


----------



## MartinWT

I see that the Zero is not available in 25mm size for UK plugs. I'll stick with SR.


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 17, 2019)

the one I bought is for uk plug 25mm 13A. you can contact him if you want to buy https://www.facebook.com/audiolinksince1997/


----------



## MartinWT

Thanks for the clarification! I shall make enquiries.


----------



## VerloK

littlexx26 said:


> Yes Zero smokes SR Blue by a big margin in every aspect



Did u try the Telos Fuse?

regards


----------



## littlexx26

VerloK said:


> Did u try the Telos Fuse?
> 
> regards


No. Not even mentioned here. Only the quantum power filter or the active grounding box GNR are talked here


----------



## MartinWT

I hope that price is not in US$!


----------



## sanvara (Aug 17, 2019)

What are the LKS fuse specs that are needed for a US compatible version fuse?

Are there audiophile fuses for the LKS that will give a noticeable improvement at $100 or less price point? I'm looking for best bang for the buck, not necessarily to squeeze out every ounce of performance. I bought an audiophile fuse for the Gustard U16 for less than $50 and it was a very nice upgrade.



MartinWT said:


> I have an SR Red in each component (LKS included) and an SR Blue in the input to my PS Audio P10 regenerator.



How noticeable was the upgrade to the SR red in the LKS? More subtle or fairly dramatic?


----------



## littlexx26

MartinWT said:


> I hope that price is not in US$!


He sold me at 1800 HKD


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 17, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> I hope that price is not in US$!


you can also contact another seller: https://www.facebook.com/Labkable/
they also selling at 1800 HKD each for my 3 fuses


----------



## MartinWT

sanvara said:


> How noticeable was the upgrade to the SR red in the LKS? More subtle or fairly dramatic?


Fuse upgrades are always subtle but an SR Red was noticeable in the LKS.  The biggest bang for buck was two SR Blues in my P10 regenerator (plug and rear panel) which feeds the entire system.


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 18, 2019)

Something I think is worth mentioning here.
Before changing the fuse, I checked shenzhen audio site Q&A section, they said the spec of the fuse is 3.15A. So I went to buy a 3.15A Zero fuse. When I took out the stock Swiss Schurter Shute frozen fuse, you know what the caps on the fuse is printed 4A. My 004 have been here for more than 2 years and so far still working fine. However, I wonder if this is the cause some owners complaining their units running hot, which was discussed in the early pages in the thread.
Furthermore, the spec of the fuse should be varied with voltage. If 110V version is 3.15A, the 220V one should be around 2A. I am in Hong Kong which is 220V, and it comes with 4A!!!


----------



## MartinWT

A fuse is for protection only.  It cannot be the cause of a component running hot.


----------



## Forgisound

But 4 A, 220 VAC  is too much for any DAC. If is for 110 VAC enough 3,15 A, for 220 VAC you need about 1,6 A.


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 18, 2019)

I know some people use silver bar to replace the fuse but their equipments blow up immediately upon switching on. So I think some manufacturers use fuse for purposes more than protection.


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 20, 2019)

Here is the official answer. All voltage versions use the same 3.15A. Believe?


----------



## Forgisound




----------



## MartinWT (Aug 21, 2019)

*Mad Scientist BlackDiscus Nano Donuts*

These new products from Mad Scientist, of New Zealand, are small-ish black half doughnuts (let's get the spelling right for the UK) made of a fairly hard black material, commonly and humorously known as 'unobtainium'!







The Donuts are designed to sit on top of small toroidal transformers.  I bought two for the transformers inside my LKS DAC (for the analogue and digital power supplies).  They come with a couple of blobs of Blu-Tack ready to stick on the top plate of the toroids.  Lid off, attach Donuts, lid back on.  That's the installation completed!

I can only guess that they are designed to interact with the transformer's electromagnetic field in some interesting way that improves their efficiency or removes external radiation by tightening the field boundary.  Pure supposition, and Mad Scientist aren't saying.  What I can say is that they most certainly do work.

They make my system sound smoooooooth but without losing any of the detail or dynamics! What they do for vocals is take away the edges and make multiple vocals much, much easier to differentiate. There is a little more tonality, too, as if someone has turned up the colour a little. In London Grammar's _Strong_, there is deep continuo bass accompaniment and I can hear it better when Hannah Reid is giving it her all.  Dire Straits’ _Water of Love_ has some ensemble singing and the voices are much better differentiated. _Kiss the Cloud_ by Yello features Fifi Rong singing over some very deep bass lines and again clarity is foremost, making it easy to follow both. Holly Cole's _Trust in Me_ has a similar stark voice over piano and bass and the effect is quite striking.

Then there is the separation of instruments, for instance the three brass instruments vying with each other in Van Morrison's brilliant _Satisfaction_.

Really complex material like Ozric Tentacles' _Magick Valley_ and Shpongle's _Brain in a Fish Tank_ are rendered less complex, easier to follow the different strands of the music.

Giving it highly dynamic material like John Pattitucci's _Messiaen's Gumbo_ is breathtaking, with huge air and detail in the snare drum and a very focussed sax to the fore.

Moving over to more difficult material, my favourite Mozart Requiem with Fruhbeck de Burgus conducting, the massed choirs in the _Dies Irae_ section are much easier to follow and better differentiated. Vivaldi's Gloria with Preston often hits the limiters which is a shame because the performance is utterly beguiling, especially in the second movement where the different choirs are positionally highly defined.

There is nothing in the frequency spectrum, tonality or dynamics of my system that have changed. This is not a ‘hi-fi’ upgrade, it's a music upgrade and I don't have any language to describe the overall effect. It has more colour and shape, if that's any help. I can listen inside the music and hear more of what's going on.

My feelings about the BlackDiscus Nano range are that they work by some kind of ‘magic’, a science we don’t really understand, remarkably similar to the way Black Ravioli works.  It matters not to me as the effects are both positive and enjoyable and the cost is not exorbitant.  Highly recommended, but make sure that your system is working well before investing in these mods.


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 21, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> *Mad Scientist BlackDiscus Nano Donuts*
> 
> These new products from Mad Scientist, of New Zealand, are small-ish black half doughnuts (let's get the spelling right for the UK) made of a fairly hard black material, commonly and humorously known as 'unobtainium'!
> 
> ...


Now is time to upgrade the fuse. You will be equally surprised.


----------



## MartinWT

littlexx26 said:


> Now is time to upgrade the fuse. You will have equal surprise.


Thanks, I'll think about it but I have a lot invested in SR fuses already.  It's an expensive blind purchase when I don't know that it will outperform the SR Red in my LKS.


----------



## Lennym

Thank you MartinWT for your post about the Donuts.  I shall be ordering.  I love affordable and easy tweaks.


----------



## jazzk

I ordered black donuts last week.   Looking forward to dropping them in.  Love the easy non electrical tweaks.   Will report my impressions soon


----------



## MartinWT

Further listening has convinced me that Bob of Mad Scientist is right about the bass using the Donuts. It is both tighter (easier to distinguish the exact note being played) and altogether more potent. Songs are boogie-ing along, driven by metronomic rhythms and bass lines. Everything has a more planted feel and comes across as more vivid and exciting.


----------



## littlexx26

MartinWT said:


> Further listening has convinced me that Bob of Mad Scientist is right about the bass using the Donuts. It is both tighter (easier to distinguish the exact note being played) and altogether more potent. Songs are boogie-ing along, driven by metronomic rhythms and bass lines. Everything has a more planted feel and comes across as more vivid and exciting.


If you like this style of improvement, you should try his power cord Nitro Nano.


----------



## aggielaw

littlexx26 said:


> If you like this style of improvement, you should try his power cord Nitro Nano.



Just a general observation: this company and its products (and their effects) sound identical to a company called "Audio Magic" in Colorado.  I don't know if Audio Magic is still in business, but they made fine products, albeit products that always produced a house sound.  I still have an Audio Magic Nano fuse I tried a few years ago.  The effect was too great in my system, but I understand why many people - especially tube lovers - esteem the products so highly.


----------



## littlexx26

aggielaw said:


> Just a general observation: this company and its products (and their effects) sound identical to a company called "Audio Magic" in Colorado.  I don't know if Audio Magic is still in business, but they made fine products, albeit products that always produced a house sound.  I still have an Audio Magic Nano fuse I tried a few years ago.  The effect was too great in my system, but I understand why many people - especially tube lovers - esteem the products so highly.


Their Super Fuse Bees Wax Ultimate sounds interesting. Should I try?


----------



## aggielaw

littlexx26 said:


> Their Super Fuse Bees Wax Ultimate sounds interesting. Should I try?



I daresay based on your preferences reflected in this thread you'll be very happy with the purchase.  I enjoyed the smoothness and sweetness the Audio Magic fuse generated in my system, but alas, it was just too much of a good thing for my system configuration at that time.  Perhaps I'll give it another listen soon, but the enhancements @b0bb and others have suggested have improved my LKS tremendously, and the AM fuse will likely make my system too sweet for my tastes again.  

I should note that on the sonic preference spectrum I still lean to the detailed/solid state side of the line rather than the "musical"/tube side.  Considering how much even I enjoyed the AM fuse I'm not surprised about the rave reviews owners who like a sweeter sound give it.

If you try it, I will be interested to hear your thoughts on it and how it compares to your current preferred fuse.


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 23, 2019)

aggielaw said:


> I daresay based on your preferences reflected in this thread you'll be very happy with the purchase.  I enjoyed the smoothness and sweetness the Audio Magic fuse generated in my system, but alas, it was just too much of a good thing for my system configuration at that time.  Perhaps I'll give it another listen soon, but the enhancements @b0bb and others have suggested have improved my LKS tremendously, and the AM fuse will likely make my system too sweet for my tastes again.
> 
> I should note that on the sonic preference spectrum I still lean to the detailed/solid state side of the line rather than the "musical"/tube side.  Considering how much even I enjoyed the AM fuse I'm not surprised about the rave reviews owners who like a sweeter sound give it.
> 
> If you try it, I will be interested to hear your thoughts on it and how it compares to your current preferred fuse.


No. I prefer neutral, realistic sound. Blackdiscus or Zero fuse do not lean to either side. Or at least the least tonality I have ever heard. If you found your system leans to either side after applying these tweaks, you better check other parts of the chain. These tweaks will make your system perform more fully to what it is capable of, i.e. your system's character will be more apparent. If your system is not neutral enough, you will hear it lean to either side more after applying the tweaks, but in a more graceful way, since the tweaks will lowered harshness and glare.


----------



## MartinWT

littlexx26 said:


> These tweaks will make your system perform more fully to what it is capable of, i.e. your system's character will be more apparent. If your system is not neutral enough, you will hear it lean to either side more after applying the tweaks, but in a more graceful way, since the tweaks will lowered harshness and glare.


I agree.  Tweaks at this level will enhance a system that is already working well.  They are not a sticking plaster for tonal correction or other fixes.


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> If you like this style of improvement, you should try his power cord Nitro Nano.


Something new along those lines from iFi https://ifi-audio.com/products/powerstation/.


----------



## MartinWT

xiamen said:


> Something new along those lines from iFi https://ifi-audio.com/products/powerstation/.


I use an iPurifier on its own, plugged in next to my regenerator.  It works well.


----------



## littlexx26

xiamen said:


> Something new along those lines from iFi https://ifi-audio.com/products/powerstation/.


I have 4 AC ipurifiers, they work. The power station is interesting but not the priority at the moment


----------



## MartinWT

I have ordered a new larger Donut from Mad Scientist for my preamp.  Not directly relevant to this thread, but an indication of what the first two did for my LKS.


----------



## littlexx26 (Aug 31, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> I have ordered a new larger Donut from Mad Scientist for my preamp.  Not directly relevant to this thread, but an indication of what the first two did for my LKS.


Have you tried his Nitro Nano power cord? It makes big difference. If your plug is UK, changing the fuse will further improve the sound quality. I would say Nitro Nano performs better than boutique brands that cost 20X. It has all the characters of donut. And the best is Nitro Nano does not have it's own signature sound that may change the tone of the whole system. No character is the best character.


----------



## MartinWT

littlexx26 said:


> Have you tried his Nitro Nano power cord?


No, and I don't really have the opportunity to short of buying one blind.

My Coherent 6D power cables are the best I've ever heard and I use an SR Red fuse in my plug.


----------



## tdrood

So I have a gen 2 004 (wimpy power supply), but I really want to upgrade to a OCXO and I have confirmed with Mauro that there’s no more Pulsars on the horizon. So, I recon I need a dedicated power supply, will this work? Well, let me be a little clearer - will this power supply provide good results or should I find something else?    LT3045-A Ultralow-noise (<0.8µVrms) LDO linear regulator 0V-15V - 1A Fixed out https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/254102539037

Oh, and I guess the other question is... AOCJY2-100.000MHZ-E or AOCJY1-100.000MHZ - or something else entirely? 

Thanks in advance - love this forum!


----------



## b0bb

tdrood said:


> So I have a gen 2 004 (wimpy power supply), but I really want to upgrade to a OCXO and I have confirmed with Mauro that there’s no more Pulsars on the horizon. So, I recon I need a dedicated power supply, will this work? Well, let me be a little clearer - will this power supply provide good results or should I find something else?    LT3045-A Ultralow-noise (<0.8µVrms) LDO linear regulator 0V-15V - 1A Fixed out https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/254102539037
> 
> Oh, and I guess the other question is... AOCJY2-100.000MHZ-E or AOCJY1-100.000MHZ - or something else entirely?
> 
> Thanks in advance - love this forum!


The LT3045 will work for this purpose however, you should check with the seller to see if the board can handle the power dissipation of the regulator and the resultant temperature rise.

The Abracon XOs you mention consume 1A at start up and 0.33A at steady state.

For estimation of the thermals, assume the LKS004 has zero airflow, a picture for the seller showing the location between 2 hot running DAC chips with the large heatsinks will help with the discussion.

The LT3045 is a very high speed regulator, it should be placed no more than 10mm from the XO to get the max performance.

The Abracon XOs mentioned have been tested on the Gen 1 LKS004s and is widely available thru the likes of Mouser and Digikey.

Get the 3.3V Squarewave output variant.


----------



## tdrood

b0bb said:


> The LT3045 will work for this purpose however, you should check with the seller to see if the board can handle the power dissipation of the regulator and the resultant temperature rise.
> 
> The Abracon XOs you mention consume 1A at start up and 0.33A at steady state.
> 
> ...




Thank you b0bb! Those boards appear to have a pair of 3045’s in parallel, perhaps I should find (or make) one with 3 or 4 in parallel. Can I glue heat sinks to the chips to help dissipate the heat, or will that affect the regulation, pick up noise, or cause some other issue(s)? Can you suggest a superior power supply solution? I have to admit that it kind of makes me itch to buy such a critical link in the chain from a random Chinese vendor on eBay...

If I read the data sheet correctly, AOCJY2-100.000MHZ-F is a 3.3V, cmos (squarewave?) output (-sw suffix = sine wave) and the F indicates -40 to +75C operating temperature range (E = -20 to +70C). I assume the F variant is preferred for our application?

Thank you again, you are an extremely valuable asset to this forum, indeed, to this community.

T


----------



## b0bb

tdrood said:


> Thank you b0bb! Those boards appear to have a pair of 3045’s in parallel, perhaps I should find (or make) one with 3 or 4 in parallel. Can I glue heat sinks to the chips to help dissipate the heat, or will that affect the regulation, pick up noise, or cause some other issue(s)? Can you suggest a superior power supply solution? I have to admit that it kind of makes me itch to buy such a critical link in the chain from a random Chinese vendor on eBay...
> 
> If I read the data sheet correctly, AOCJY2-100.000MHZ-F is a 3.3V, cmos (squarewave?) output (-sw suffix = sine wave) and the F indicates -40 to +75C operating temperature range (E = -20 to +70C). I assume the F variant is preferred for our application?
> 
> ...



The proper way to heatsink the LT3045 is via the metal heat spreader at the bottom of the chip soldered to the board with the heatsink on the otherside like in the photo below.
If a heatsink is glued to the top the weight can tear the chip from the board.






This regulator unit uses 6x LT3045 made by MPAudio in Germany
https://www.mpaudio.net/product-page/sd-hpuln-ps

This is a 2 channel unit, ask MPAudio if this can be strapped to have all 6 LT3045s running in parallel, this will give you the lowest possible noise performance.

The manufacturer has information on mounting and transformer voltage selection, that is the other big consideration.

Overall a much better built product. The Ebay unit is of reasonable build quality but if you are looking for something better, the MPAudio regulators are worth considering if you have the budget. 

The -F variant of the AOCJY2 provides an extra 5ºC of thermal headroom and it is not too expensive.


----------



## tdrood

Very cool stuff. You said in a previous post that this regulator should be no more that 1 cm (10 mm) from the XO. Is that even possible? It seems like the leads on the regulator board are separated by at least a cm! MPaudio also sells this little gem: https://www.mpaudio.net/product-page/the-new-sls-hpuln-ps  I would gladly pay the extra cash - in the interest of science, mind you - if it would be possible to install it sufficiently close to the XO. Thoughts?

They also have an interesting discussion regarding benefits of series regulators, I have shamelessly copied/pasted from their FAQ below. Given that info, perhaps it makes sense to run the two regulators in series with a 1V differential up front and 1V differential between stages? And/or add a pre-regulation stage? See below...

The following is taken from https://www.mpaudio.net/faq:
I happened across some forums in which people refer to configuring two HC-HPULN in series with 1V voltage differential between intervals. A key consideration is that for the LT3045, Power Supply Ripple Rejection increases with voltage differential. It's also important to mention, that heat also increases with increasing voltage difference. Let's concentrate to 

On page 10 of the LT3045 data sheet, "Power Supply Ripple Rejection" is around 60dB@.5V, 70dB@1V, 78dB@2V, 83dB@3V voltage differential (averaged over the charted frequencies). So there would be a 13dB ripple rejection improvement between stages if the voltage differential were changed from 1V to 3V.

Keep in mind that even 1dB ripple rejection is a significant amount because it's 26% ripple reduction, and -3dB is half the ripple.
For the following examples, lets assume we're starting with a fairly clean 10mV ripple. Going by the LT3045 data sheet, a 1V voltage differential generates 70dB ripple rejection with following result:
10mV ripple @ -70dB = 0.00316mV ripple

If we again pass that through another LT3045 at 1V voltage differential and another 70dB ripple rejection, we calculate following:
0.00316mV ripple @ -70dB = 0.000001mV ripple

Likewise, -70dB + -70dB = -140dB which is also 0.000001mV ripple from 10mV

Now lets start with a single LT3045 at 3V voltage differential and 83dB ripple rejection:
10mV ripple @ -83dB = 0.00070795mV ripple

So a single LT3045 at 3V voltage differential (-83dB ripple) is 4.5 times more effective at ripple rejection than a single LT3045 at 1V voltage differential (-70dB ripple).
But two series LT3045 at 1V voltage differentials is 708 times more effective at ripple rejection than a single LT3045 at 3V voltage differential, and it's 50% more efficient (net -2V versus -3V).
Also two series LT3045 at 1V voltage differentials is 3160 times more effective at ripple rejection than a single LT3045 at 1V voltage differential, but it's 50% less efficient (net -2V versus -1V).
So definitely series LT3045 has a distinct advantage over single. But if you can't wing two, try one at 3V differential.

So putting power supplies in series can bring benefits, whereas it's absolutely necessary to respect the wasted power (heat) and take care about additional cooling.


----------



## b0bb

tdrood said:


> Very cool stuff. You said in a previous post that this regulator should be no more that 1 cm (10 mm) from the XO. Is that even possible? It seems like the leads on the regulator board are separated by at least a cm! MPaudio also sells this little gem: https://www.mpaudio.net/product-page/the-new-sls-hpuln-ps  I would gladly pay the extra cash - in the interest of science, mind you - if it would be possible to install it sufficiently close to the XO. Thoughts?


Some of the capacitors will have to be relocated to the underside of the board, this will allow the regulator board to be as close as possible to the XO. The wires coming out must be tightly twisted together to prevent FM radio inteference. 100MHz is at the top of the FM radio band.

https://www.mpaudio.net/product-page/the-new-sls-hpuln-ps is too tall to fit, you might be able to get the top cover down without touching the heatink.

The initial effort should be on getting the sd-hpuln-ps board working in the DAC, there is an existing pre-regulator in the LKS004[/QUOTE]


----------



## littlexx26

The big donut just arrived. It is matt finish. Waiting for the Audio Magic beeswax fuses arrived and put them together to the amp


----------



## MartinWT

That looks perfectly sized (the big donut) for my Pass preamp.  Mine should arrive soon.


----------



## VerloK

littlexx26 said:


> The big donut just arrived. It is matt finish. Waiting for the Audio Magic beeswax fuses arrived and put them together to the amp



Richie Rich...
Does the DiscountCode still work?

regards


----------



## MartinWT

littlexx26 said:


> The big donut just arrived. It is matt finish. Waiting for the Audio Magic beeswax fuses arrived and put them together to the amp


Which component have you bought the Big Donut for?


----------



## littlexx26

MartinWT said:


> Which component have you bought the Big Donut for?


Int amp


----------



## MartinWT

The Max Donut is just a little too large for my Pass preamp toroid (I can't get the lid back on) so I'm ordering another and will use both on the twin toroids in my power amp.

Meanwhile, I have placed the freebie discs on the HDMI cable at the LKS end and the DC connector into my preamp. They are very effective at furthering musical flow, lowering noise floor and generally increasing my musical enjoyment.


----------



## littlexx26

MartinWT said:


> The Max Donut is just a little too large for my Pass preamp toroid (I can't get the lid back on) so I'm ordering another and will use both on the twin toroids in my power amp.
> 
> Meanwhile, I have placed the freebie discs on the HDMI cable at the LKS end and the DC connector into my preamp. They are very effective at furthering musical flow, lowering noise floor and generally increasing my musical enjoyment.


I have Black discus everywhere at my home


----------



## littlexx26 (Sep 10, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> The Max Donut is just a little too large for my Pass preamp toroid (I can't get the lid back on) so I'm ordering another and will use both on the twin toroids in my power amp.
> 
> Meanwhile, I have placed the freebie discs on the HDMI cable at the LKS end and the DC connector into my preamp. They are very effective at furthering musical flow, lowering noise floor and generally increasing my musical enjoyment.


Btw, how's the quality of Pass Labs XP-20? Any details loss at low volume? I ask this because XP-30 uses the Muses 72320 IC for volume control, which my int amp uses as well. Very good at low volume. I am not sure if XP-20 uses the same


----------



## tdrood

Ok b0bb, here is my current plan (yeah, I’m probably nuts...j.  I am going to get one of the 2.5A MPAudio regulators with no heat sink and I am going to try to fit it with a heat pipe - maybe this one: https://www.quietpcusa.com/Streacom-GPU-Cooling-Kit-DB4 .  But I have questions/want some advice - of course, right?  Ok, so here goes... in order to get the heat pipe to work, it will probably be necessary to get the condenser end outside of the LKS case and therefore will require some additional shielding to be installed over/around it, in the interest of not bringing additional RF into the case. Would you agree with that statement? 

Also, we know there is already a fair amount of noise inside the case from the xformers, display, probably other components as well. Am I asking for trouble by putting this thing in there, in intimate proximity to the regulators (will be attached to the regulator board urging thermally conductive tape plus mechanical attachments)?  

If the answers to the above questions point to this being a bad idea, I guess I will just stick with the 950 I already have...

Sorry for being a PITA and thank you for any insight you may have!!

Oh, one more thing, can you save me some time and point me at a good pre-regulated 5VDC source inside the LKS that would be suitable to drive this new power supply? I’m sure I can find a source in there if I poke around long enough, but I don’t want to load down a circuit that may be adversely affected by doing so...

Thank you sir!!


----------



## Lennym

FWIW, I have tried the pair of small donuts for a few weeks and must report that I do not hear a benefit from them.  It may be that my system is less, shall I say, sophisticated than some others here, but it was sufficiently revealing for me to hear a clear improvement from a copper barrier between the transformers and the circuit.  So I conclude that the benefits from the donuts are system dependent.  As they say, YMMV.


----------



## MartinWT

littlexx26 said:


> Btw, how's the quality of Pass Labs XP-20? Any details loss at low volume? I ask this because XP-30 uses the Muses 72320 IC for volume control, which my int amp uses as well. Very good at low volume. I am not sure if XP-20 uses the same


It's a superbly transparent preamp at any volume and uses the Wayne Colburn volume circuit.  I don't know about the IC.  My Revelation Audio DC link cable makes it perform at an ever higher level.  It drives my power amp very well, an important criterion for a preamp.


----------



## sanvara (Sep 12, 2019)

I searched the thread for fuse specs for a DA004 to be used in the US and can't seem to find this info. Can anyone post  the fuse specs or link to the third party fuse they purchased which would have the specs. Thanks.


----------



## MartinWT

I bought mine on Amazon and it was a good price with fast delivery.


----------



## b0bb

tdrood said:


> Ok b0bb, here is my current plan (yeah, I’m probably nuts...j.  I am going to get one of the 2.5A MPAudio regulators with no heat sink and I am going to try to fit it with a heat pipe - maybe this one: https://www.quietpcusa.com/Streacom-GPU-Cooling-Kit-DB4 .  But I have questions/want some advice - of course, right?  Ok, so here goes... in order to get the heat pipe to work, it will probably be necessary to get the condenser end outside of the LKS case and therefore will require some additional shielding to be installed over/around it, in the interest of not bringing additional RF into the case. Would you agree with that statement?



That heatpipe setup handles up to 65W, for the XO regulator target a power dissipation of 3W on startup and 1W in steady state.
That big metal block is not a radiator it has to be bolted to a larger piece of metal, such as the actual PC case.

You might want to look into getting the heat pipes custom made, the link below is a place in California is an example of shops offering rapid  prototyping for heatpipes used in electronics.
Prepare to spend some money if you go this route.
https://myheatsinks.com/heat-pipe-solutions/custom-heat-pipes/



> Also, we know there is already a fair amount of noise inside the case from the xformers, display, probably other components as well. Am I asking for trouble by putting this thing in there, in intimate proximity to the regulators (will be attached to the regulator board urging thermally conductive tape plus mechanical attachments)?



Done correctly everything should be inside the case.




> Oh, one more thing, can you save me some time and point me at a good pre-regulated 5VDC source inside the LKS that would be suitable to drive this new power supply? I’m sure I can find a source in there if I poke around long enough, but I don’t want to load down a circuit that may be adversely affected by doing so...
> 
> Thank you sir!!



The existing regulator is the second stage regulator, take the feed from that


----------



## Forgisound

Please recommend the HQ Player DSD settings for LKS 004. I'm listening to the classics.
Does upsampling work on DSD512? I keep getting interrupted, while the DSD 256 works.
Secondly, which Amanero firmware do you use?


----------



## tracer5

Hello...consider not using the Amanero USB converter for the LKS-DA004. After trying the Gustard u16 digital interface IIs output I am totally satisfied with system performance. DSD512 is no problem. There is no need to use a Windows system. Any Linux, MacOS, or Windows operating system works well. Only Windows requires a driver.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 16, 2019)

Forgisound said:


> Please recommend the HQ Player DSD settings for LKS 004. I'm listening to the classics.
> Does upsampling work on DSD512? I keep getting interrupted, while the DSD 256 works.
> Secondly, which Amanero firmware do you use?



Yes, Amanero works with DSD512 if Firmware_2006BE10/CPLD_1081_SWAPPEDDSD is used.
However SMS-200's implementation of the NAA is limited to DSD256, this has nothing to do with the Amanero.
I use an Intel NUC for DSD512.

DSD512 dropouts are a symptom of inadequate CPU processing capabilty on the PC.
The newer EC modulators cannot yet be used at DSD512 with the current avaiilable CPUs.

HQPlayer settings I use for the Amanero

Output Mode: SDM
Autorate Family: Disabled
Ratelimit:
11289600 (DSD256/44 kbase) on SMS200
22579200 (DSD512/44k base) on NUC

SD Modulator: DSD7 or ASDM7 (can cause noise pumping on noisy tracks)
Filter: polysinc-xtr-mp or polysinc-ext2 if your PC is really weak.
48k DSD: OFF

Notes:
PC have at least a Quad core CPU with 4 real processors@ 3.5GHz, the clockspeed can be lower if have more processing cores.
Let HQPlayer do the PCM->SDM conversion, otherwise the ES9038 does that, I find it does a poorer job.
Nvidia GPU can offload the filter work if you have one installed in the PC.


----------



## b0bb

tracer5 said:


> Hello...consider not using the Amanero USB converter for the LKS-DA004. After trying the Gustard u16 digital interface IIs output I am totally satisfied with system performance. DSD512 is no problem. There is no need to use a Windows system. Any Linux, MacOS, or Windows operating system works well. Only Windows requires a driver.



LKS uses pin14 on the HDMI connector to signal native DSD mode.






Gustard has this signal on Pin15





U16 is not going to have native DSD support on the LKS004, DSD-Over-PCM (DoP) maxes out at DSD256, this means no DSD512.

@Quadman ran into this very issue a few months ago
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gus...ing-ess-usb-chip.888947/page-52#post-14816536

There are no Linux or Mac drivers, capability is limited to DSD256 over DoP

The only native non DoP commercial I2S devices I am aware of that works on the LKS004 are the Singxer SU1 and SU6, I have both of them working on the 004


----------



## tracer5

Please allow me to further inform about the Gustard U16. I2S 'HDMI' connection to the LKS-DA004 is not an issue after following some simple steps.

Jumper (J1) inside the U16 near the HDMI connector is labeled 'DSD Flag' with three jumper positions: Default (Pin15), Pin 14, and Pin 16. To connect to the I2S of the LKS-DA004 set the connector to pin14 so that the DSD mode pin is setup for controlling PCM/DSD audio of the LKS-DA004.  The Gustard U16 is extremely versatile as there is no standard for I2S over HDMI. The U16 supports up to PCM 32bit/768KHz and DSD512, and supports both DoP and Native DSD. There is no need for Linux or MacOS drivers. Native DSD is supported without any problem at DSD512


----------



## b0bb (Sep 17, 2019)

tracer5 said:


> Please allow me to further inform about the Gustard U16. I2S 'HDMI' connection to the LKS-DA004 is not an issue after following some simple steps.
> 
> Jumper (J1) inside the U16 near the HDMI connector is labeled 'DSD Flag' with three jumper positions: Default (Pin15), Pin 14, and Pin 16. To connect to the I2S of the LKS-DA004 set the connector to pin14 so that the DSD mode pin is setup for controlling PCM/DSD audio of the LKS-DA004.  The Gustard U16 is extremely versatile as there is no standard for I2S over HDMI. The U16 supports up to PCM 32bit/768KHz and DSD512, and supports both DoP and Native DSD. There is no need for Linux or MacOS drivers. Native DSD is supported without any problem at DSD512



The jumpers you are referring to are present in the older versions of the board. @DACLadder made a mention of it
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gus...ing-ess-usb-chip.888947/page-52#post-14816407





The current version that Shenzhenaudio sells no longer has this, so there is no more configurability.
The pinout diagram I posted earlier came from Shenzhenaudio.
The user manual links make no mention of this jumper block.

Notice in the 2 following pictures the area behind the HDMI connector is completely clear in the latest boards.

https://m.shenzhenaudio.com/decoder...512-dop-and-native-dsd-digital-interface.html









Mac and Linux support USB 2.0 UAC audio mode without drivers but it gives you DSD256 via DOP and PCM.

On the Mac ASIO drivers are required for DSD512, Exasound is the only manufacturer I know of.

On Linux, DSD512 native support has to be registered with the linux kernel in order for HQPlayer's NAA  Image to support DSD512
ARM Linux kernels on Sotm SMS-200 and  Sonore uRendu have to be on 4.9x or newer to work with DSD512

There is no registration for the U16 or the ES8620 chip from ESS.
Linux does not support DSD Native mode for the U16 only UAC 2.0 mode
without a linux device driver

The current list of supported devices can be found here
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/sound/usb/quirks.c

Here is part of the kernel source documentation
_/* snd_usb_interface_dsd_format_quirks() is called from format.c to 
 * augment the PCM format bit-field for DSD types. The UAC standards 
 * don't have a designated bit field to denote DSD-capable interfaces, 
 * hence all hardware that is known to support this format has to be 
 * listed here
*/
_
Section for Xmos




Section for Amanero
_

_


----------



## tracer5

Yes there is a newer Gustard U16 circuit board without internal physical jumpers for configuring the DSD/PCM mode signal pin. That is true. 

What is new is that there are now firmware files customized to each ‘standard’, HOLO, LKS, and PSA. In the case of the LKS-DA-004, the DSD mode signal (1=DSD mode, 0=PCM mode) is on pin 14, not the default per Gustard U16 which is pin 15. If one flashes firmware file GU16V1_4_LKS_0db.rom the mapping for the DSD mode is to pin 14 as needed by the LKS-DA004. Native DSD512 is no problem.


Some Linux distributions have native DSD512 playback support, not all. For Linux to have Native DSD support it is included at the kernel level. There are no add on drivers as Windows is dependent upon.

An example of a high quality player is Volumio. Direct DSD formats supported are DSD64, DSD128, DSD256, DSD512.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 18, 2019)

tracer5 said:


> Yes there is a newer Gustard U16 circuit board without internal physical jumpers for configuring the DSD/PCM mode signal pin. That is true.
> 
> What is new is that there are now firmware files customized to each ‘standard’, HOLO, LKS, and PSA. In the case of the LKS-DA-004, the DSD mode signal (1=DSD mode, 0=PCM mode) is on pin 14, not the default per Gustard U16 which is pin 15. If one flashes firmware file GU16V1_4_LKS_0db.rom the mapping for the DSD mode is to pin 14 as needed by the LKS-DA004. Native DSD512 is no problem.


That is the important distinction you left out when  you made the recommendation.
U16 has to be ordered with the right firmware for the LKS004 or the user will have the task of changing the firmware to make it work with the LKS004.

*U16 with default shipping firmware will not support Native DSD on the LKS004*



> Some Linux distributions have native DSD512 playback support, not all. For Linux to have Native DSD support it is included at the kernel level.



All of this applies to the XMOS and Amanero devices not the U16, no support for the U16 in the mainline linux kernel.
If you have a custom kernel with DSD512 enabled and running on linux for the U16, post details of what is in your */proc/asound* directory


----------



## Forgisound

In addition to the weak NAS and SoTM SMS 200 Ultra, I also got a / mini PC, on which I run a HQ Player server. Currently Windows 10 is preinstalled. Under Windows HQ player can convert PCM to DSD 256 on the fly, but for the DSD 512 it is too weak (i7 4650U).
Is it worth installing Linux and what kind of distribution to run HQ Player server? Is Linux less resource intensive?


----------



## b0bb

Forgisound said:


> In addition to the weak NAS and SoTM SMS 200 Ultra, I also got a / mini PC, on which I run a HQ Player server. Currently Windows 10 is preinstalled. Under Windows HQ player can convert PCM to DSD 256 on the fly, but for the DSD 512 it is too weak (i7 4650U).
> Is it worth installing Linux and what kind of distribution to run HQ Player server? Is Linux less resource intensive?



The 4650U is a dual core clocked at 1.7GHz, it did quite well giving you DSD256.
You would really need a quadcore or better running at 3.5GHz+ to get the full benefit of the highend DSD modulator and filters.

Linux can consume much less resources if you do not have the GUI, with Windows there is no option and W10 has a lot of baggage.

Not sure what your budget is on this one but if you have 300-400 USD to spend on the CPU take a look at the Ryzen 3700x from AMD, 3.6GHz 8 cores.
https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-ryzen-7-3700x

Get a microATX or mini ITX motherboard, 4-8Gb of memory, no disk, boot from a USB 3.1 stick using the image below.
There is a version of HQ player embedded that comes in a bootable USB disk image, it is a custom barebones linux kernel with HQ Player server already built in.
No need to install your own version of linux or mess around with the linux distributions.

https://www.signalyst.eu/bins/hqplayerd/images/

This is almost identical to the NUC setup I am using for the NAA, my USB image contains the NAA software instead of HQP server. 

To reduce load on the SMS-200, run DSD in native mode, DoP takes more cycles and the little Dual core Allwinner ARM on the SMS-200 is already quite close its limits running NAA@DSD256
Roon is a lot less resource intensive and I can get SMS-200 to handle DSD512.


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> I have Black discus everywhere at my home


Hi, you seems to place the black discus on plastic cover not in direct contact. Does that mean you can place it on an amplifier case without fitting it inside and it will still works?


----------



## littlexx26

xiamen said:


> Hi, you seems to place the black discus on plastic cover not in direct contact. Does that mean you can place it on an amplifier case without fitting it inside and it will still works?


Yes before the donut I put discus on the lid at the torroidal transformers area but not as effective as direct contact


----------



## MartinWT

I have been using Mad Scientist's Graphene Contact Enhancer with amazing results on all my power cables and interconnects.

I'm going to try treating the HDMI I2S cable to the LKS if I can get into the contacts with the smallest brush.


----------



## VerloK

I use the contact enhancer several months and i did not notice big differences. 

I use it also on my RAM and PCI Cards ect.


----------



## xiamen

VerloK said:


> I use the contact enhancer several months and i did not notice big differences.
> 
> I use it also on my RAM and PCI Cards ect.


I use it too. I thought there are improvements. Not big, but I think expecting big improvement may be asking for too much. Trying out various mad scientist stuffs. Using oit n the amplifier transformer (just placing it on the lid) seems helpful. My Cayin has large transformers which may be why. One thing I did I thought was useful is using a pcie-riser from the computer to my matrix element-h usb card, and placing a nano on the riser cable.


----------



## MartinWT

I've used Magic Tubes on the interconnects from DAC to preamp (at the DAC end) to good effect.  Donuts are also good.  The graphene was remarkable, though.  More music, less hi-fi.


----------



## KESM

Anyone own or demoed the mini version of this DAC? aka *LKS Audio MH-DA004 Mini DAC *


----------



## rettib2001

I'm still on the hunt for a way to get an i2s feed into the 004 without usb being involved at all (I'm currently using a modded singxer and the on-board amanero board).

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...-transmitter-i2s-dsd-dop-to-hdmi-p-13982.html

The above product, connected to its corresponding reclocking board seems great but as per usual the setback seems to be the pinout arrangement which doesn't match lks's as it's setup for ps audio/audio gd. 

Question aimed at the more technically minded subscribers of this thread: how difficult would it be to modify to the appropriate pinout?


----------



## xiamen

rettib2001 said:


> I'm still on the hunt for a way to get an i2s feed into the 004 without usb being involved at all (I'm currently using a modded singxer and the on-board amanero board).
> 
> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...-transmitter-i2s-dsd-dop-to-hdmi-p-13982.html
> 
> ...


The Sonore Signature Series Rendu has ethernet input and i2s output. But even Sonore is moving away to usb based setup with their new offerings. I feel usb has come a long way and I don't know you gain much by trying to avoid them. Often it's a 2 edge sword. The pink faun i2s pcie for example is limited to 192k pcm and cannot do native dsd. A lot of reclocking cards has usb in their architecture anyway, and even if not you wonder with a cheap one like the one on audiophonics whether it's using good components.


----------



## b0bb

rettib2001 said:


> I'm still on the hunt for a way to get an i2s feed into the 004 without usb being involved at all (I'm currently using a modded singxer and the on-board amanero board).
> 
> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...-transmitter-i2s-dsd-dop-to-hdmi-p-13982.html
> 
> ...



You will need to connect pin 14 of the HDMI connector to ground.
This gives you PCM only playback.

LKS follows the PS-Audio layout if you are outputting PCM except the master clock connection is not needed.


----------



## rettib2001

Thanks for the replies. 

Perhaps I should stop focusing too much on i2s. 

The solution you suggested b0bb doesn't seem to hard to put in place but I really need to be able to use DSD upsampling (the recent addition of the EC modulators in hqplayer are really something).

Even with the recent firmware the amanero board makes an alarming 'pop' when sample rates are changed, having recently changed my speakers I can't take the risk.

I'll turn my attention back to the Singxer su-1 and implement a few of the absorbtion tweaks mentioned earlier in the thread to optimize it a little more.


----------



## MartinWT

If it helps, I was focussing on I2S playback but problems with the lack of muting finally killed it for me (thumps at start and end of each track), together with hearing what the Mutec MC-3+ USB reclocker could do in my system.

Now I feed USB to the Mutec, which is a fantastic reclocker, and then AES to the LKS.  This setup sounds better than I2S ever did, and thankfully the AES input is properly muted.


----------



## b0bb (Oct 17, 2019)

MartinWT said:


> If it helps, I was focussing on I2S playback but problems with the lack of muting finally killed it for me (thumps at start and end of each track), together with hearing what the Mutec MC-3+ USB reclocker could do in my system.
> 
> Now I feed USB to the Mutec, which is a fantastic reclocker, and then AES to the LKS.  This setup sounds better than I2S ever did, and thankfully the AES input is properly muted.


This is one of the reasons I consider the LKS I2S implementation sub-par.
The other major gripe is the Pin14 DSDOE hack which makes it incompatible with more than a few USB to I2S boxes (U16, Matrix etc)

Singxer appears to be the only manufacturer willing to address the LKS I2S quirks.
Initial versions of SU-1 on the MH-DA003 also had very similar muting and thump issues you described.

Current SU-1 boxes are considerably more refined but not perfect, I still get occasional howling and screeching sounds as the SU-1 flushes its audio buffers when a track is stopped and restarted.
This happens with DSD512 or DSD256 on my 004.

The SU-6 has largely fixed these issues described above, there is still minor clicking sounds when the sample rate basis (44k/48k) is changed.
I have been using the SU-6 for about 2 months.

HQPlayer is one of the very few players able to upsample, apply room correction and output playback to DSD512 and have the end result that is an improvement over the original.

2 channel DSD512@24MHz is just under 60Mbit/s.
I2S is the only thing with high enough bandwidth to accept this.

DSD512 on the Amanero is still a work in progress.


----------



## rettib2001

MartinWT said:


> If it helps, I was focussing on I2S playback but problems with the lack of muting finally killed it for me (thumps at start and end of each track), together with hearing what the Mutec MC-3+ USB reclocker could do in my system.
> 
> Now I feed USB to the Mutec, which is a fantastic reclocker, and then AES to the LKS.  This setup sounds better than I2S ever did, and thankfully the AES input is properly muted.



I'm not too surprised by your results. 

If it weren't for needing the ability to upsample I'd have looked at other solutions. 

In fact I've been using a Nvidia Shield tv with a lpsu and a glass optical cable and it sounds more 'natural' that usb playing back the same redbook files.


----------



## xiamen

rettib2001 said:


> I'm not too surprised by your results.
> 
> If it weren't for needing the ability to upsample I'd have looked at other solutions.
> 
> In fact I've been using a Nvidia Shield tv with a lpsu and a glass optical cable and it sounds more 'natural' that usb playing back the same redbook files.


The new hqplayer ec modulators are really resource hungry. My i7 8700 with 1660 ti can upsample only to 128k.


----------



## rettib2001

xiamen said:


> The new hqplayer ec modulators are really resource hungry. My i7 8700 with 1660 ti can upsample only to 128k.



That's what I keep reading yes. I'm building an i9 9900k for upsampling duties and using a nuc as an endpoint, both running under audiolinux.


----------



## littlexx26

I wonder if 9900k still enough for the task


----------



## xiamen

littlexx26 said:


> I wonder if 9900k still enough for the task


Enough to upsample to 256k. For 512K, you need a CPU with turbo frequency of 8MHz. Neither Intel or AMD has come up with that yet.


----------



## Xoverman (Oct 31, 2019)

b0bb said:


> This is one of the reasons I consider the LKS I2S implementation sub-par.
> The other major gripe is the Pin14 DSDOE hack which makes it incompatible with more than a few USB to I2S boxes (U16, Matrix etc)
> 
> Singxer appears to be the only manufacturer willing to address the LKS I2S quirks.
> ...


Hello it's been quite long,
Bobb, can you please report the sonic differences you experienced in the last 2 months between the SU-1 vs SU-6 using i2s ?

I use a SU-1 myself. I olso experimented a little with some mod's.
1. Installing Sorbathan feet, and setting it on a concrete stone. ( sonic improvement )
2. Filling the SU-1 with quartzsand. ( big sonic improvement )
3. Remove the sand and installed ss7805 and SS1117-3.3 from sparkoslabs.com ( same sonic improvement as SU-1 with sand )
4. Fillid the SU-1 with quartzsand again . ( big sonic improvement over just the ss7805 and SS1117-3.3 )

I didn't try the RF sheets jet, that's the next experiment.


----------



## Xoverman

Hi, maybe some one has an idea using HQPlayer and NAA.
does’ anyone have good experience up sampling DSD64 (SACD) to DSD512.
I can’t find any combination that sounds better then bypassing DSD directly to the DAC ( es9038Pro ).
Sending DSD directly to the DAC has better Transients, and deeper soundstage.
Up sampling PCM to DSD has a big Sonic impact . Everything is improved with PCM.

My Chain: 
PC ( Rayzen 7 3800x )  ---USB--->  iFi Micro   ---USB--->   Singxer SU-6   ---HDMI--->   DAC ( _L.K.S_ Audio MH-_DA004_ Dual ES9038pro )  ---->  Accuphase E-470


----------



## Lennym

FWIW I am using JRiver to upsample all pcm files to 352.8 and 384 with very nice results.


----------



## xiamen

Xoverman said:


> Hi, maybe some one has an idea using HQPlayer and NAA.
> does’ anyone have good experience up sampling DSD64 (SACD) to DSD512.
> I can’t find any combination that sounds better then bypassing DSD directly to the DAC ( es9038Pro ).
> Sending DSD directly to the DAC has better Transients, and deeper soundstage.
> ...


In theory (according to https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/) and I quote "This is also why advanced player software, such as JRiver, offers Double-Rate DSD output. Using player software that upsamples DSD64 to DSD128 or DSD256 significantly improves performance by putting the digital artifacts octaves above audibility allowing more advanced noise-shaping algorithms and less severe digital filters. Note these extremely high sampling frequencies are why ultra accurate clocking is more important in DSD vs. PCM recordings.". What filter are you using. With your CPU, you may give ASDM7EC a try to upsample to say 128/256K (128K should definitely work for your CPU), using poly-xtr-mp as your filter assuming you are on HQPlayer 4. Benefit of upsampling to 128K instead of 256K is you don't need a top notch GPU for cuda offload with the poly-xtr-mp filter. But if native DSD64 sounds better to you, then why not stick with it.


----------



## Xoverman (Nov 2, 2019)

xiamen said:


> In theory (according to https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/) and I quote "This is also why advanced player software, such as JRiver, offers Double-Rate DSD output. Using player software that upsamples DSD64 to DSD128 or DSD256 significantly improves performance by putting the digital artifacts octaves above audibility allowing more advanced noise-shaping algorithms and less severe digital filters. Note these extremely high sampling frequencies are why ultra accurate clocking is more important in DSD vs. PCM recordings.". What filter are you using. With your CPU, you may give ASDM7EC a try to upsample to say 128/256K (128K should definitely work for your CPU), using poly-xtr-mp as your filter assuming you are on HQPlayer 4. Benefit of upsampling to 128K instead of 256K is you don't need a top notch GPU for cuda offload with the poly-xtr-mp filter. But if native DSD64 sounds better to you, then why not stick with it.


Thanks for the reply.
That's exactly what I experimented when yousing HQPLAYER. HQPlayer is probably the best program around to do the job.
Upsampling PCM to 256K with  poly-xtr-mp / ASDM7EC is no problem. But I actually prefer poly-xtr-mp / SDM5 / 512KHz . For me it has better transient response. Upsampling PCM with HQPLAYER has a big sonic benefit on the LKS.
That's why I just can't believe that the es9038pro dos a better job upsample dsd64 then HQPLAYER.


----------



## piaseczek

Hi, 
I wonder, will I ommit the first stage of upsampling in the es9038 with external upsampling (8x) to 352.8kHz?


----------



## Lennym

xiamen said:


> In theory (according to https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/dsd-vs-pcm-myth-vs-truth/) and I quote "This is also why advanced player software, such as JRiver, offers Double-Rate DSD output. Using player software that upsamples DSD64 to DSD128 or DSD256 significantly improves performance by putting the digital artifacts octaves above audibility allowing more advanced noise-shaping algorithms and less severe digital filters.



JRiver (I have MC 23.) does not seem to permit native format DSD upsampling using the Amanero-WASAPI. 

It does permit upsampling after conversion to DoP.  For native format upsampling you need to use ASIO.


----------



## MartinWT (Nov 2, 2019)

My new streaming front end is now complete and sounding magnificent. Asus Tinker Board S streamer running Volumio with Qobuz and Spotify subscriptions. Mutec MC-3+ USB reclocker. LKS MH-DA004 modified with Coherent femtoclock. AudioQuest Carbon USB and AES cables. Coherent QP-1 supercap power supply running Asus and Mutec.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Hello it's been quite long,
> Bobb, can you please report the sonic differences you experienced in the last 2 months between the SU-1 vs SU-6 using i2s ?
> 
> I use a SU-1 myself. I olso experimented a little with some mod's.
> ...


SU-6 is an incremental improvement over SU-1. My SU-6 is stock.

The main reason I use it is improved I2S compatability with the LKS-004, no more thumps, loud clicks, bangs and howling when starting/stopping tracks and changing sample rates

Sound quality wise it brings smoothness without sacrificing ability to resolve the soundstage, with the SU-1 there is a tradeoff between the two aspects.

This is most evident on complex tracks for example the opening of Dies Irae from Mozart's Requiem in D-Minor. 

The SU-1 is not able to clearly separate out the orchestral and choral sections during the opening when orchestra and the choir go with the full might.

On the SU-6 orchestra and chorus is clearly rendered and within the choir, the different sections can be clearly identified (soprano, alto, tenor, bass)
SU-1 renders the the chorus as a single mass of sound, I could barely make out the latin lyrics


Tried this on 2 versions of the track with HQPlayer DSD512 output polysinc-xtr-mp resampling filter and ASDM7 512+ DS modulator

On the SU-1 the increased dynamic range of the DSD128 version was not at all evident, it was quite clear on the SU-6

Amadeus Soundtrack, Neville Marriner conducting the Academy of St Martin in the Fields PCM 44.1k
 

Choir of St Jacob Stockholm, Stefan Skold Conducting DSD128


----------



## b0bb (Nov 2, 2019)

Xoverman said:


> Hi, maybe some one has an idea using HQPlayer and NAA.
> does’ anyone have good experience up sampling DSD64 (SACD) to DSD512.
> I can’t find any combination that sounds better then bypassing DSD directly to the DAC ( es9038Pro ).
> Sending DSD directly to the DAC has better Transients, and deeper soundstage.
> ...



The stock 004 performance of the DSD256 and higher has a lot of room to improve, this is one of the reasons I swapped out the XO.

The filter you choose in HQP greatly affects the performance, if you like good transient handling use the -mp minimum phase filters and stick to the polysinc family.
On the longer polysinc filters, a big NVIDIA GPU helps, HQP is adaptive it scales the work to the available computing resources.
DSD to DSD upsampling takes about 4X the computational power compared to PCM->DSD and this is where GPUs have a role to play.

If straight DSD64 sounds better, you might have a bottleneck somewhere in your playback chain.


----------



## xiamen

b0bb said:


> The stock 004 performance of the DSD256 and higher has a lot of room to improve, this is one of the reasons I swapped out the XO.
> 
> The filter you choose in HQP greatly affects the performance, if you like good transient handling use the -mp minimum phase filters and stick to the polysinc family.
> On the longer polysinc filters, a big NVIDIA GPU helps, HQP is adaptive it scales the work to the available computing resources.
> ...


If you are using the standard clock on the LKS, that may be the bottleneck. Accurate clocking is important for re-sampling at high frequencies. The other suspect will be the LKS power supply. Variation in voltage will cause jitters amplified with the re sampling. That's probably why many people here are doing mods on those tow components.


----------



## xiamen

Lennym said:


> JRiver (I have MC 23.) does not seem to permit native format DSD upsampling using the Amanero-WASAPI.
> 
> It does permit upsampling after conversion to DoP.  For native format upsampling you need to use ASIO.


Jriver has a upgrade discount now on for the upcoming jriver 26. For me, one of the big enhancement is with the newer versions is a 64-bit version of jriver which optimize system resources assuming your OS is also 64-bit.


----------



## MartinWT

xiamen said:


> Accurate clocking is important for re-sampling at high frequencies. The other suspect will be the LKS power supply. Variation in voltage will cause jitters amplified with the re sampling. That's probably why many people here are doing mods on those tow components.


Exactly that.  I have a Coherent femtoclock installed, Mad Scientist Donuts and RFI shielding around the two toroid transformers and run it from a regenerator for very stable power.  The level of insight, even from 16/44 material, is extraordinary.


----------



## Xoverman (Nov 3, 2019)

b0bb said:


> The stock 004 performance of the DSD256 and higher has a lot of room to improve, this is one of the reasons I swapped out the XO.
> 
> The filter you choose in HQP greatly affects the performance, if you like good transient handling use the -mp minimum phase filters and stick to the polysinc family.
> On the longer polysinc filters,
> ...


Thanks for the explanation Bobb. Actually my 004 is quite intensive modded as your may remember.
Oscillator, capacitors, copper wall, and grounding upgrades.



Danger!!! This Mod is simple but also very dangerous if you don't know that you are doing!!!
My last mod is pretty easy to do but has a bigger impact then it thought it would have. I disconnected ground from the mains plug,
and screwed it to the chassis ground of the amplifier. ( very very big sonic impact! Deeper and better controlled bass, better harmonics )




My Stereo:




My DIY X-over


----------



## Xoverman

@BobB and the rest  

Let me be more pressies about my system :

PC ( Rayzen 7 3800x + RTX 2080 HQPLAYER )  --- NAA ---> PC ( Rayzen 5 2400ge ) ---USB---> iFi Micro ---USB---> Singxer SU-1 ---HDMI---> DAC ( _L.K.S_ Audio MH-_DA004_ Dual ES9038pro ) ---RCA---> Accuphase E-470

Bobb can you please share your exact dsd upsampling settings with us. Maybe that will help. Thanks in advance


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Thanks for the explanation Bobb. Actually my 004 is quite intensive modded as your may remember.
> Oscillator, capacitors, copper wall, and grounding upgrades.



The T-Shaped absorber over the XO will cause a few problems. (Is that the Fairrite?)
1) Part of the input stage JFET is covered, it can disrupt the electric field around the JFET affecting its operation
2) I/V is no longer fully balanced as only one half of the I/V is affected.
3) One channel has the in-phase (+) affected and the other channel has the inverted-phase (-) affected
4) Similarly the CCHD-575 and CCHD-950 performance is altered if an absorber sheet is placed over them

The symptom is degraded high sampling rate performance especially DSD.

The absorber over the XO  appears to smooth the sound quality but in reality it takes a lot away from the top end and smears the transients.
To take the edge off the top end audio, add absorbers (both 3M + Fairrite) over the HDMI connector and transciever chip


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> @BobB and the rest
> Bobb can you please share your exact dsd upsampling settings with us. Maybe that will help. Thanks in advance



My HQP settings: poly-sinc-xtr-mp, ASDM7 512+ upsample PCM and DSD to DSD512

You appear to have ground borne noise problems, try isolating the PC with HQP from the rest of the playback chain, I use fiberoptic ethernet.

I have the iFi micro as well and found it does more harm than good when connected to the SU-1 playing high rate DSD.
I got better performance by absorbing the noise inside the SU-1 and removing the iFi from the chain.


----------



## Stefday2

hi all, 
I would like know arround tihis budget what are the alternative of the MH-DA004 ?  or if it's still the best choice
i curently have the DA003 (stock) since 2014  and i'm looking for a serious updgrade, i recently tested AKM based dac without succes (Bryston BD3 and RME ADI dac 2)
regards !

(i'm french and if you would like have more information about my current systeme it's here : 
https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=180081038#p180081038
)


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> My HQP settings: poly-sinc-xtr-mp, ASDM7 512+ upsample PCM and DSD to DSD512
> 
> You appear to have ground borne noise problems, try isolating the PC with HQP from the rest of the playback chain, I use fiberoptic ethernet.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback Bobb. Can you also please share your DSD Source settings with us?


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Thanks for the feedback Bobb. Can you also please share your DSD Source settings with us?


I use the default for those settings.


----------



## MartinWT

I tried a Topping D70 (based on AKM) in my system.  It was ok, but in terms of detail resolution and sheer potency it lost out big time to the LKS.  For me, the LKS with a better clock is very hard to beat for detail, bass, dynamics and soundstage.


----------



## Lodwales81

I was trying to make my mind up on going with the Lks da004 or the chord qutest. Originally I did purchase the LKS but the sale fell through. I live in the UK and in the end I went with chord as its sold locally so I could have a listen before purchasing. The chord dac is good but I it doesn't blow me away. I always wonder if the Lks would have been better but I was just put off by the fact that I was unable to listen before purchasing and any issues with the dac would involve shopping back to China. 



MartinWT said:


> I tried a Topping D70 (based on AKM) in my system.  It was ok, but in terms of detail resolution and sheer potency it lost out big time to the LKS.  For me, the LKS with a better clock is very hard to beat for detail, bass, dynamics and soundstage.


----------



## Paul Staples

MartinWT said:


> I tried a Topping D70 (based on AKM) in my system.  It was ok, but in terms of detail resolution and sheer potency it lost out big time to the LKS.  For me, the LKS with a better clock is very hard to beat for detail, bass, dynamics and soundstage.


What he said - seconded!
004 is still tops and even better with a few small mods?


----------



## Lennym

Lodwales81 said:


> I was trying to make my mind up on going with the Lks da004 or the chord qutest. Originally I did purchase the LKS but the sale fell through. I live in the UK and in the end I went with chord as its sold locally so I could have a listen before purchasing. The chord dac is good but I it doesn't blow me away. I always wonder if the Lks would have been better but I was just put off by the fact that I was unable to listen before purchasing and any issues with the dac would involve shopping back to China.


I can understand the feeling that buying an LKS is a bit of adventure, perhaps more bother than you want to endure.  But these DACs seem to work without issues.  IIRC, the only issue reported here a long time ago was a problem with the Amenaro board, and LKS sent a new one quickly.  If there were to be a major issue, I think one would only have to send back the main board which is pretty easily lifted from the unit.  Jinbo at LKS has been a great help to many people here--great English and fast replies.


----------



## xiamen

Lodwales81 said:


> I was trying to make my mind up on going with the Lks da004 or the chord qutest. Originally I did purchase the LKS but the sale fell through. I live in the UK and in the end I went with chord as its sold locally so I could have a listen before purchasing. The chord dac is good but I it doesn't blow me away. I always wonder if the Lks would have been better but I was just put off by the fact that I was unable to listen before purchasing and any issues with the dac would involve shopping back to China.


Did anyone try the new Topping DX7 Pro. Read some really good reviews. Same ESS as LKS and I think half the price.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> I use the default for those settings.


Sory, I didn't express myself clearly. How are your settings in HQPlayer ( DSD source settings ) wenn converting DSD64 to DSD 512 ?


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Sory, I didn't express myself clearly. How are your settings in HQPlayer ( DSD source settings ) wenn converting DSD64 to DSD 512 ?


These are the settings I normally use


----------



## piaseczek

Lennym said:


> Jinbo at LKS has been a great help to many people here--great English and fast replies.



How to contact Jinbo directly? I have send the e-mail to bleerock@126.com with no reply...


----------



## Xoverman (Nov 10, 2019)

b0bb said:


> These are the settings I normally use


Thanks Bobb, a picture says more than a thousand words  .  Those are the same settings I prefer. 
What's the setting "bit limit" for?  And do you use the 004 as a 24bit DAC, even though it's a 32bit DAC?


----------



## Xoverman (Nov 13, 2019)

b0bb said:


> Most of the ideas on the 003 can transfer over to the 004
> 
> 1) OCXO for master clock
> 2) Vishay Z-foil metal foil I/V conversion resistor
> ...


Hy b0bb,
did you ever change the caps in the signal path against "CGW glass caps for the analog bypass caps" ??


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Thanks Bobb, a picture says more than a thousand words  .  Those are the same settings I prefer.
> What's the setting "bit limit" for?  And do you use the 004 as a 24bit DAC, even though it's a 32bit DAC?


That is on the ALSA backend that is not connected to anything, ignore.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Hy b0bb,
> did you ever change the caps in the signal path against "CGW glass caps for the analog bypass caps" ??


Not on the 004


----------



## sanvara (Nov 15, 2019)

littlexx26 said:


> Yes Zero smokes SR Blue by a big margin in every aspect



Have you had a chance to try the newest SR Orange? Its supposed to be significantly better than Blue and isn't too much more expensive at $160.


----------



## Xoverman

Recently I read a post in some forum, that the es9038pro is internally a 32bit DAC but the digital front end only youses 24bit.
Can that be? That would be important to know for adjusting the dithering in HQPLAYER .


----------



## Xoverman

Has anyone exchanged the capacitors in the two pole filter network at the XLR output jet? 
I was thinking of exchanging them agenst mica capacitors .
Thanks in advance for the reply


----------



## Chopin75

Xoverman said:


> Recently I read a post in some forum, that the es9038pro is internally a 32bit DAC but the digital front end only youses 24bit.
> Can that be? That would be important to know for adjusting the dithering in HQPLAYER .


Not sure it it matters. The extra bits may be just 
 Headroom for error correction though I could be wrong.


----------



## MartinWT

Xoverman said:


> Recently I read a post in some forum, that the es9038pro is internally a 32bit DAC but the digital front end only youses 24bit.


It could be to ensure adequate volume control range (if using the LKS digital volume control) without losing bits at low volumes.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Recently I read a post in some forum, that the es9038pro is internally a 32bit DAC but the digital front end only youses 24bit.
> Can that be? That would be important to know for adjusting the dithering in HQPLAYER .


If you use PCM over SPDIF you will be limited to 24 bit.

HQplayer outputting SDM over USB or I2S to the LKS has no such limitation.

Dithering on HQPlayer is only relevant for PCM output where the bit length is less than 24bits. 9038 is a SDM DAC, forcing the PCM mode only adds additional processing complication.

If the volume control is enabled the 9038 does some part of the processing in the PCM domain, I find this audibly degrades the output most notably the dynamics are compressed.


----------



## Xoverman

Thanks for all the reply 

Yesterday I had some spear time, so I thought what would happen if I disconnected the 004 display. 
Something I haven't tried jet. So I pulled the plug right at the main PCB and turned on the DAC.
Restarted the NAA and HQPLAYER........  Started the first reference track....... Wow, what a effect. That made my day. 
Soundstage has become wider, but the biggest effect is depth of soundstage and clarity. 

It's so surprising what is still in the music, and nobody ever hears it because the equipment just isn't good enough.
What a wonderful hobby 
Cheers


----------



## Chopin75

Xoverman said:


> Thanks for all the reply
> 
> Yesterday I had some spear time, so I thought what would happen if I disconnected the 004 display.
> Something I haven't tried jet. So I pulled the plug right at the main PCB and turned on the DAC.
> ...


I guess they should have a way to turn off the display like Audio-gd (though it still leaves a small  dash " - "


----------



## oldearwax

Chopin75 said:


> I guess they should have a way to turn off the display like Audio-gd (though it still leaves a small  dash " - "



Yes there is. Use the remote, press the top rightmost button 


.. the display 
will turn off after a while.


----------



## MartinWT

I keep the display off and it has a similar effect to disconnecting it.


----------



## littlexx26 (Dec 6, 2019)

sanvara said:


> Have you had a chance to try the newest SR Orange? Its supposed to be significantly better than Blue and isn't too much more expensive at $160.


Yes I have bought 10 Orange fuses for my amp and UK plugs and the Orange is very good. I did not replace the Zero at the IEC of lks but instead put the Orange into the UK plug of the power cable to replace the stock fuse. Everything got improved by a big margin. Highly recommend. I have Zero UK plug fuse as well comparing them Orange is bigger dynamics Zero sounds towards polite side. I can't say which is better than which it depends on your taste and system.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> If you use PCM over SPDIF you will be limited to 24 bit.
> 
> HQplayer outputting SDM over USB or I2S to the LKS has no such limitation.
> 
> ...



Hello, would LKS 004 benefit from optical fiber hdmi connecting Su-1 and LKS? like this one https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...chweb0_0,searchweb201602_8,searchweb201603_55


----------



## EDN80

$825 Standard USB drop today. $925 updated USB. https://drop.com/buy/lks-mh-da004-dual-es9038pro-dac#overview


----------



## aggielaw

Interesting.  One of the stock photos shows a different face than the others.  The different face drops in the center to create an elegant angled bottom.  Also, the description offers a second 957 clock for $100.  I don't think I've heard of a dual clock option at any time on this thread.


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Hello, would LKS 004 benefit from optical fiber hdmi connecting Su-1 and LKS? like this one https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...chweb0_0,searchweb201602_8,searchweb201603_55



I think this is not suitable.

This is not a full fiber cable, some part of it is copper.
Pin14 on HDMI 1.4 and newer is half of the the audio return channel which goes in the reverse direction. (LKS-->SU1)

Active cables are directional, it will attempt to amplify any signal from the LKS back to the SU1, this is not desirable as the DSDOE connection is no longer functional.


----------



## b0bb

aggielaw said:


> Interesting.  One of the stock photos shows a different face than the others.  The different face drops in the center to create an elegant angled bottom.  Also, the description offers a second 957 clock for $100.  I don't think I've heard of a dual clock option at any time on this thread.



The 957 is for the USB interface not the master clock.


----------



## aggielaw

@b0bb Indeed.  I should have read more closely.  Thanks for the catch!


----------



## Ethereal Sound

The drop price for this unit is insane if the performance is really at the level being talked about in this thread. Would have jumped on it if I didn't already have a DAC or if I hadn't already made another huge purchase... Maybe I'll regret not jumping on it aha


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> I think this is not suitable.
> 
> This is not a full fiber cable, some part of it is copper.
> Pin14 on HDMI 1.4 and newer is half of the the audio return channel which goes in the reverse direction. (LKS-->SU1)
> ...


Thank you, what do you think how does LKS 004 compares to Resistor to Resistor DACS? Like Denafrips Ares 2?


----------



## AVIX

Hi there!! I'm new to this forum!! I own an mh-da004 since about 1 year, and during the last two months I've been listening this dac a lot. When I first listened this dac, it was hooked up with a different desktop pc and it was working fine. Now I'm experiencing a lot of clicks and pops when hooked up to my new desktop pc through the amanero usb. I've tried to fix the problem in many ways: setting properly the win10 energy management, updating any peripheral drivers, adding a usb pcie board, replacing usb cable with a better one, made a latency test etc etc... nothing worked for me!! Always clicks and pops. I also own an smsl m8 dac and the weird thing is that this one work fine....no noise. What's wrong with this dac?. Is it faulty?? Have you had any problem like this? Any suggestion? Thank You in advance for your help!!   P.S Sorry for my bed English.


----------



## Lennym

You say it was working fine with a different desktop pc.  I assume that was also through the Amanero board.  Is that correct?  If so, then the Amanero board and the DAC are working correctly and the problem would _appear_ to be with the second desktop pc.  Are you sure that you have correctly installed the Amanero Windows 10 driver in the second desktop pc? 

If you think have correctly installed the Amanero driver and it still doesn't work correctly, you might consult your pc manufacturer for support.

The only other suggeestion I can make, if everything else seems OK. is to update the Amanero firmware.  But I'm not sure that would solve what _seems_ to be a computer problem.

I use an old Asus laptop pc with usb out to the Amanero board.  It works beautifully.


----------



## tdrood

demos said:


> How is the bass, does it sound warmer on the bid clock?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Demos, did you ever manage to implement one of those power supplies? I assume your plan was to go to an OCXO using one of those power supplies(?). If so, how did it work out? Pictures?  I have same low power onboard power supply and would like to try an OCXO.  Since Pulsar no longer an option...

Thanks in advance!


----------



## tdrood

Also, has anyone tried one of these? If not, does anyone have any thoughts on the use of one of these?  @b0bb mentioned that TCXO’s may be worth a try, curious if anyone has gone down that road yet... 

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...8oz/HeiymAP2I3XxjUzcDvM/KsWZ5OKcKZ/G8w8qB9Q==


----------



## ti5002000

I am using one sitime 5157 0.5ppm .

In my opinion is great.

I tried 950x.575x and one or other and i keep going back to this.

In my opinion the best quality of it is that is very neutral to the source.


tdrood said:


> Also, has anyone tried one of these? If not, does anyone have any thoughts on the use of one of these?  @b0bb mentioned that TCXO’s may be worth a try, curious if anyone has gone down that road yet...
> 
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/SiTime/SiT5357AI-FQ-33N0-100000000X?qs=sGAEpiMZZMt8oz/HeiymAP2I3XxjUzcDvM/KsWZ5OKcKZ/G8w8qB9Q==


----------



## tdrood

ti5002000 said:


> I am using one sitime 5157 0.5ppm .
> 
> In my opinion is great.
> 
> ...



Great, thank you!


----------



## tdrood

I just requested the data sheet for these babies. If it is low power, which I assume it is, could be a Pulsar replacement?
https://www.sitime.com/products/stratum-3e-ocxos/sit5712


----------



## oldearwax (Dec 19, 2019)

ti5002000 said:


> I am using one sitime 5157 0.5ppm .
> 
> ...
> In my opinion the best quality of it is that is very neutral to the source.


----------



## oldearwax

TI,  is this the part that you are using ????

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/SiTime/SiT5157AI-FK-33N0-100000000X?qs=gTYE2QTfZfTLCaFemhwTJA==

Thank you.


----------



## ti5002000

Yes,that is the one . I bought at arrow.com, which at the time, was cheaper.




oldearwax said:


> TI,  is this the part that you are using ????
> 
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/SiTime/SiT5157AI-FK-33N0-100000000X?qs=gTYE2QTfZfTLCaFemhwTJA==
> 
> Thank you.


----------



## oldearwax

ti5002000 said:


> Yes,that is the one . I bought at arrow.com, which at the time, was cheaper.



TI, thank you. 

Comparing the datasheets of the original XTAL and  TCXO:
the solder footprint of TCXO is less by 2mm in both xy direction.  
Did you have to solder some breakouts (legs) or
you just dropped it in the PCB`s pads without any issue ????

Operating Supply Voltage:3.3 V
Current Rating:15 mA
Output Format:HCMOS
Termination Style:SMD/SMT
Length:7.5 mm
Width:5.08 mm
Height:2.5 mm
Series:CCHD-575
Brand:Crystek Corporation


Operating Supply Voltage:3.3 V
Current Rating:45 mA
Output Format:LVCMOS
Termination Style:SMD/SMT
Length:5 mm
Width:3.2 mm
Height:0.87 mm
Series:SiT5157
Product Type:TCXO Oscillators


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Thank you, what do you think how does LKS 004 compares to Resistor to Resistor DACS? Like Denafrips Ares 2?



It depends on whether the LKS is stock or modified.

The 004 is almost 3 years old now and the competition (Denafrips, Gustard, Holo etc) have closed the gap and I think the stock performance is pretty ordinary today.
LKS has not done anything in that time and has been cost cutting eg the XO regulator went from 1A to 200mA, effectively shutting the door on drop in low cost OCXOs replacements from Abracon.

The price cuts on the LKS004 we see now should not come as a surprise.

In that time, Denafrips released 2 versions of the ARES and the ARES2 NOS mode means HQPlayer can now do the heavy computational lifting. I am less concerned with the conversion technology provided DSD is properly supported. It is on the ARES 2.

DSD's SDM modulation has many advantages on paper, unfortunately I have not heard a chip or FPGA based implementation that I liked, in many cases being much worse than PCM
HQPlayer brings a substantial increase in computational power to the table in the form of CPU+GPU, the transformation is night and day.

Moving the DSP filter and upsampling processing to the PC produced such large improvements in sound quality, it made the hardware mods (XO, cap swaps, voltage regulators etc) seem like small incremental changes.


----------



## Whitigir (Dec 20, 2019)

b0bb said:


> It depends on whether the LKS is stock or modified.
> 
> The 004 is almost 3 years old now and the competition (Denafrips, Gustard, Holo etc) have closed the gap and I think the stock performance is pretty ordinary today.
> LKS has not done anything in that time and has been cost cutting eg the XO regulator went from 1A to 200mA, effectively shutting the door on drop in low cost OCXOs replacements from Abracon.
> ...



I agreed on many counts, FPGA is noisy and still very limited in development for audiophile based.  Even Chord is using a customized FPGA which is developed by others....Delta-Sigma is perfect on paper but there are still too many limitations to bring out and about the precision’s of Digital music to improve the performances....phase timing noises/errors....capacitors piezoelectric effects....resistors tolerances.....etc....it isn’t easy to bring about the optimal performances of the modern Delta-sigma Chips.
Yes, HQplayer is excellent since with a great built-pc, you can have it do Delta-sigma modulation on the fly...However, Offline processing would be even better, since the program, the CPU can take as long as they need to optimize the modulations of Oversampling processing.  This is why I value the next HQplayer4Pro which allows offline Sigma-delta processing and store it into a MicroSD.  Nowadays, MicroSD is 1Tb, so storage should not be any issues any longer.... even with DSD512

not to mention that different Delta-Sigma modulators would bring about different sounds....and good thing is that HQplayer4Pro has many


----------



## b0bb (Dec 20, 2019)

Whitigir said:


> I agreed on many counts, FPGA is noisy and still very limited in development for audiophile based.  Even Chord is using a customized FPGA which is developed by others....Delta-Sigma is perfect on paper but there are still too many limitations to bring out and about the precision’s of Digital music to improve the performances....phase timing noises/errors....capacitors piezoelectric effects....resistors tolerances.....etc....it isn’t easy to bring about the optimal performances of the modern Delta-sigma Chips.
> Yes, HQplayer is excellent since with a great built-pc, you can have it do Delta-sigma modulation on the fly...However, Offline processing would be even better, since the program, the CPU can take as long as they need to optimize the modulations of Oversampling processing.  This is why I value the next HQplayer4Pro which allows offline Sigma-delta processing and store it into a MicroSD.  Nowadays, MicroSD is 1Tb, so storage should not be any issues any longer.... even with DSD512
> 
> not to mention that different Delta-Sigma modulators would bring about different sounds....and good thing is that HQplayer4Pro has many



HQPlayer4 Pro is one way to go, here is one reason I did not mention it.



I have been buying recordings made natively at DSD512, sizes vary from 16-25Gb so a 1Tb SSD  will hold only 40 albums.
This places a limit on the practicality of converting and storing redbook 44k tracks converted to DSD512.

DSD512 files are so big that it constantly breaks NativeDSD's download tool.


----------



## ti5002000

Personally, i soldered some small pure silver wires to the TCXO pads and then soldered them to a RHEA board, which is made by twisted pear . I already had placed a modified 14dip in that pads available for that in the dac board to allow easy switching of the Dac clock.





oldearwax said:


> TI, thank you.
> 
> Comparing the datasheets of the original XTAL and  TCXO:
> the solder footprint of TCXO is less by 2mm in both xy direction.
> ...


----------



## tdrood (Dec 20, 2019)

ti5002000 said:


> Personally, i soldered some small pure silver wires to the TCXO pads and then soldered them to a RHEA board, which is made by twisted pear . I already had placed a modified 14dip in that pads available for that in the dac board to allow easy switching of the Dac clock.



Thank you very much, TI!  I ordered a 5357 0.1ppm (the 5357 appears to be same as 5157 except meets some Mil-spec enviro requirements). The spec sheet wants a 0.1mfd and a 10mfd diode paralleled across the power supply and “as close to vdd pin as possible, typically within 1 to 2mm” and further that the 0.1mfd must be closest to the vdd/GND pins. What diodes did you use and how close did you get them? Would you mind sharing a picture of the instl? Did you tie all NC pins to ground as recommended (not required)?

edited to add:
I just pulled the SiTime design and layout practices doc (https://www.sitime.com/api/gated/AN10006-Best-Design-Layout-Practices.pdf) and it implies that those diodes are not necessary unless the output frequency is above 150Mhz, so I reckon we don’t need them(?). Pretty interesting read, either way.

thanks in advance!


----------



## ti5002000

Hi

I didn´t read the spec sheet at detail, so i didn´t know about the diodes, so i didn´t installed it.

Anyway, i didn´t connect the NC pins to ground (Only one is connected but is more to secure the tcxo with four legs, one leg in which corner/pad).

I don´t have here with me any picture but it is a simple install only the wires soldered to the pads then the wires soldered to RHEA board pads.

Also it has been working fine for me like this for months, so i didn´t bother to perfect the TCXO instalation.My spaire time is limited....

Best

Tiago




tdrood said:


> Thank you very much, TI!  I ordered a 5357 0.1ppm (the 5357 appears to be same as 5157 except meets some Mil-spec enviro requirements). The spec sheet wants a 0.1mfd and a 10mfd diode paralleled across the power supply and “as close to vdd pin as possible, typically within 1 to 2mm” and further that the 0.1mfd must be closest to the vdd/GND pins. What diodes did you use and how close did you get them? Would you mind sharing a picture of the instl? Did you tie all NC pins to ground as recommended (not required)?
> 
> edited to add:
> I just pulled the SiTime design and layout practices doc (https://www.sitime.com/api/gated/AN10006-Best-Design-Layout-Practices.pdf) and it implies that those diodes are not necessary unless the output frequency is above 150Mhz, so I reckon we don’t need them(?). Pretty interesting read, either way.
> ...


----------



## AVIX

AVIX said:


> Hi there!! I'm new to this forum!! I own an mh-da004 since about 1 year, and during the last two months I've been listening this dac a lot. When I first listened this dac, it was hooked up with a different desktop pc and it was working fine. Now I'm experiencing a lot of clicks and pops when hooked up to my new desktop pc through the amanero usb. I've tried to fix the problem in many ways: setting properly the win10 energy management, updating any peripheral drivers, adding a usb pcie board, replacing usb cable with a better one, made a latency test etc etc... nothing worked for me!! Always clicks and pops. I also own an smsl m8 dac and the weird thing is that this one work fine....no noise. What's wrong with this dac?. Is it faulty?? Have you had any problem like this? Any suggestion? Thank You in advance for your help!!   P.S Sorry for my bed English.





Lennym said:


> You say it was working fine with a different desktop pc.  I assume that was also through the Amanero board.  Is that correct?  If so, then the Amanero board and the DAC are working correctly and the problem would _appear_ to be with the second desktop pc.  Are you sure that you have correctly installed the Amanero Windows 10 driver in the second desktop pc?
> 
> If you think have correctly installed the Amanero driver and it still doesn't work correctly, you might consult your pc manufacturer for support.
> 
> ...




Today I've connected a laptop to the da004 and result was about the same.... clicks and pops as always but a little bit less. Other than that I've noticed that for the first 15 mins there are no clicks. Now I'm more convinced that I own a faulty DAC!!! Am I the only one? Maybe the fact that this problem came out when I bought a new desktop pc is just a coincidence!!


----------



## MartinWT

I just wanted to bring everyone up to date and confirm that the LKS digital volume control is very impressive and does not impact sound quality.  I recently managed to acquire a Burson AB-160 XLR buffer, which is incredibly transparent.  It solved the problem of the LKS not having sufficient drive to run my power amp directly.  Through the Burson, there is incredible potency in both slam and bass extension.  This has rendered my Pass Labs preamp superfluous so I sold it and bought another regenerator, a PS Audio Stellar P3.  Now I run all my source components from the P3 and the power amp from the P10.  Volume is handled by the LKS.

With this setup, sound quality is the best yet.  The LKS runs around the -19dB to -16dB volume range, depending on music.  It's easy to use and controls volume very well.  This chain of DAC -> buffer -> power amp is excellent, simple and with the least number of components in the signal path.  I am well pleased with the result.


----------



## Lennym

MartinWT said:


> I just wanted to bring everyone up to date and confirm that the LKS digital volume control is very impressive and does not impact sound quality.  I recently managed to acquire a Burson AB-160 XLR buffer, which is incredibly transparent.  It solved the problem of the LKS not having sufficient drive to run my power amp directly.  Through the Burson, there is incredible potency in both slam and bass extension.  This has rendered my Pass Labs preamp superfluous so I sold it and bought another regenerator, a PS Audio Stellar P3.  Now I run all my source components from the P3 and the power amp from the P10.  Volume is handled by the LKS.
> 
> With this setup, sound quality is the best yet.  The LKS runs around the -19dB to -16dB volume range, depending on music.  It's easy to use and controls volume very well.  This chain of DAC -> buffer -> power amp is excellent, simple and with the least number of components in the signal path.  I am well pleased with the result.


In this vein I might mention the new Schiit Freya preamps offering fully balanced passive, differential buffer (no gain) or differential buffer with 12db of either SS gain or tube gain depending on the model.  The SS version has been received very well in the various forums and I can personally vouch for the new tube version.  It performs way, way above its price especially with a pair of NOS tubes. The Schiit preamp is far from perfect, but introducing a tube stage into the system reveals LKS performance at new levels.


----------



## xiamen

Whitigir said:


> I agreed on many counts, FPGA is noisy and still very limited in development for audiophile based.  Even Chord is using a customized FPGA which is developed by others....Delta-Sigma is perfect on paper but there are still too many limitations to bring out and about the precision’s of Digital music to improve the performances....phase timing noises/errors....capacitors piezoelectric effects....resistors tolerances.....etc....it isn’t easy to bring about the optimal performances of the modern Delta-sigma Chips.
> Yes, HQplayer is excellent since with a great built-pc, you can have it do Delta-sigma modulation on the fly...However, Offline processing would be even better, since the program, the CPU can take as long as they need to optimize the modulations of Oversampling processing.  This is why I value the next HQplayer4Pro which allows offline Sigma-delta processing and store it into a MicroSD.  Nowadays, MicroSD is 1Tb, so storage should not be any issues any longer.... even with DSD512
> 
> not to mention that different Delta-Sigma modulators would bring about different sounds....and good thing is that HQplayer4Pro has many


Signalyst price


Lennym said:


> In this vein I might mention the new Schiit Freya preamps offering fully balanced passive, differential buffer (no gain) or differential buffer with 12db of either SS gain or tube gain depending on the model.  The SS version has been received very well in the various forums and I can personally vouch for the new tube version.  It performs way, way above its price especially with a pair of NOS tubes. The Schiit preamp is far from perfect, but introducing a tube stage into the system reveals LKS performance at new levels.


Lenny, didn't  you tell me off when I said it's a good idea to introduce some tubes into the overall system?


----------



## Lennym

xiamen said:


> Lenny, didn't  you tell me off when I said it's a good idea to introduce some tubes into the overall system?


I don't think I did.  Just to make sure, I did a search and didn't come up with anything.  In fact, in Post 2117 I encouraged someone to try tubes.  Perhaps you could point to a post?


----------



## xiamen

Lennym said:


> I don't think I did.  Just to make sure, I did a search and didn't come up with anything.  In fact, in Post 2117 I encouraged someone to try tubes.  Perhaps you could point to a post?


2266 and 2267


----------



## Lennym

You wrote 2266.  In 2267 I did not write anything to discourage the use of tubes in a quality audio system.


----------



## MartinWT

It depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you have a solid state system and feel the need for tubes to soften the sound or take the edge off, I would say look at your digital chain more carefully. Pay attention to power supplies, supports, grounding and cables.

I fully understand those who just like the tube sound and have an all-tube system. However, adding tubes as a band aid is almost never fixing the root cause issues.


----------



## Lennym

I do not wish to go far off topic.  But I must say my system was fine.  While I appreciate your advice, I have been doing this stuff for a very, very long time.  There was no edge to take off.  Modern tube designs do not, or should not, soften the sound.  What I have found using this preamp and a couple of (not very expensive) NOS tubes is an easily noticed increase in the three dimensionality of instruments within an enlarged sound-stage.  Also, more of a you-are-there/it-is-here sensation.  I have a sense that I might also find this with a very expensive modern SS device, but what I have found with a relatively low expenditure was IMO worth reporting in context.  On topic, it reveals that the LKS had more to give than I had supposed.


----------



## MartinWT

Ok, with that I agree, the LKS has very much to give. I find it hard to believe the detail retrieval which seems endless on occasion. Buying the LKS back at the beginning of 2019 was one of my all-time best hi-fi purchases.


----------



## xiamen

Lennym said:


> I do not wish to go far off topic.  But I must say my system was fine.  While I appreciate your advice, I have been doing this stuff for a very, very long time.  There was no edge to take off.  Modern tube designs do not, or should not, soften the sound.  What I have found using this preamp and a couple of (not very expensive) NOS tubes is an easily noticed increase in the three dimensionality of instruments within an enlarged sound-stage.  Also, more of a you-are-there/it-is-here sensation.  I have a sense that I might also find this with a very expensive modern SS device, but what I have found with a relatively low expenditure was IMO worth reporting in context.  On topic, it reveals that the LKS had more to give than I had supposed.


I don't have the Freya but I think they use 6SN7 tubes. My preamp section uses both 6SN7 and 6SL7. Have rolled many different NOS tubes over the years right up to expensive ones like the Russian 1578. Problem with buying NOS is fraught with fakes and NOS that are not really new. Right now I am using the Psvane CV-181 TII (I think they are already superseded by the Psvane 6SN7SE). These are new productions with decent quality control. You can really tell the difference with different tubes and the good ones take you to a whole new level.


----------



## xiamen

For those who are looking for interesting experiment to improve their sound system, I have been playing with Bug Head Emperor utilities from a Japanese developer Hiroyuki. First there is MinorityClean http://www.mics.ne.jp/~coolverse/MinorityClean/. You can run it as a service on your PC which supposedly "addresses noise generated by the CPU register being out of sync with the "internal circuit standard in memory". There is also Affeine Rewrite Data which I think does something like disk optimization and place your audio file in contiguous disk location to reduce output latency. Finally there is also an audio player Nontallion/Pink HQ. I think MinorityClean and Affeine does something good to my system but I haven't really had any serious listening comparisons. The audio player is interesting when compared to the likes of HQPlayer. It does take time to initialize and stabilize before playing anything. The UI is very primitive as well, may be suitable if you just want yo listen to one album at a time. The good news is it's all open source so you don't have to pay anything to try them out. If it doesn't do anything for you, just remove them.


----------



## tdrood

ti5002000 said:


> Hi
> 
> I didn´t read the spec sheet at detail, so i didn´t know about the diodes, so i didn´t installed it.
> 
> ...


D

Duh, I must have been tired when I wrote this post. Capacitors, not diodes!!  Sometimes I worry that my brain is eroding...


----------



## tdrood

In case anyone is interested, here is what I have done...

Start off by saying - this is my 1st experience with SMD and it was really quite easy.  Of course, I have not worked up the necessary testicular fortitude required to demount/liberate the existing XO from the main board yet, so my opinion may change before this is over...

I bought a pair of the Rhea boards from Twisted pair and mounted a 950X on one and a SiTime SIT5357 TCXO on the other.  I used the bypass cap pads on the backside of the the Rhea boards to mount a 0.1mF Murata Low ESL 0306 cap as can be seen in the photos.  I made a very high tech clamp to keep the cap from moving during the solder process.  Yes, that is a twist tie... worked quite well.  I used MG low temp solder paste.




 

I was able to mount the SiTime TCXO without the use of extra jumpers, but the pads on the XO do not overlap onto the pads on the Rhea board by very much (just a couple of mm at each corner), so I don't know how durable that installation will prove to be.  I did use a little extra solder on those pads in the interest if improving the fillet at the connection points - probably a bad idea, definitely bad form - but hey, we're experimenting here, right?  Not sure why those solder joints look so cold in the photos; they look pretty clean in real life.  If necessary, I will install silver jumper wires, but I like do like the elegance of the jumperless installation and it seems like less is more from a noise standpoint.  In any event, time will tell how well this configuration works out and I will post accordingly.

Like I said, I have not installed these in my machine yet - I probably will today and will post again once I have at least one of the clocks installed and burned (or burning) in.

I have a question for @b0bb - or anyone else who wants to chime in: well, actually, a statement and a question.  I noticed after the fact that there are pads for a bypass cap on the upper surface of the Rhea board that also connects pin 2 to pin 4 of the adapter and is closer to the Vdd/Vcc pin of the clock than are the pads on the lower surface of the board.  Should I move the 100nF cap to this location and install a 1mF cap on the bottom of the board?  I bought the 1mF caps (which are 0508) in case the 0306s were too difficult to install, so I have both.  Or, for that matter, should I use different values/types entirely?  Thanks in advance!

T


----------



## ti5002000

Nice Job!

Unfortunatelly, i don´t have the technical skils to help with your question.

A question myself :

At which temperature did you use heat gun to solder the sitime?






tdrood said:


> In case anyone is interested, here is what I have done...
> 
> Start off by saying - this is my 1st experience with SMD and it was really quite easy.  Of course, I have not worked up the necessary testicular fortitude required to demount/liberate the existing XO from the main board yet, so my opinion may change before this is over...
> 
> ...


----------



## tdrood

ti5002000 said:


> Nice Job!
> 
> Unfortunatelly, i don´t have the technical skils to help with your question.
> 
> ...



Thank you!  I actually used a hot plate/IR heat pad set to 250F to pre-heat the whole board and used a fine tip soldering iron to actually do the soldering.  As good as my clamp is, I was worried about dislodging the device if I used hot air to solder.  A rookie mistake, I am sure...  But ignorance is bliss and it seemed to work pretty well.


----------



## oldearwax

tdrood said:


> In case anyone is interested, here is what I have done...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Good job. The SiTime App Note suggests 0.1uF (not 1mF) decoupling cap (Fig. 1). I think 0.1uF on the top is preferred.


----------



## tdrood

oldearwax said:


> Good job. The SiTime App Note suggests 0.1uF (not 1mF) decoupling cap (Fig. 1). I think 0.1uF on the top is preferred.



Yes the datasheet does indicate 0.1mF and I would have put it on the top had I noticed the pads up there (or if I had read instructions that I am sure exist but I did not!).  So I guess I will move one up there.  The bigger question is for me is whether or not I should bother to add a 1mF on the bottom.  Seems like std practice is to use multiple caps of ascending value as you move further away from the Vcc pin.


----------



## tdrood

Ok, old XO removed, socket installed and Si TCXO populated.  I decided to try it with the 0.1mF cap on the bottom and once broken in, I will change it oout and see if there is a discernible difference.  As of now, it is up and running and breaking in.


----------



## b0bb (Jan 2, 2020)

tdrood said:


> In case anyone is interested, here is what I have done...
> 
> 
> 
> I have a question for @b0bb - or anyone else who wants to chime in: well, actually, a statement and a question.  I noticed after the fact that there are pads for a bypass cap on the upper surface of the Rhea board that also connects pin 2 to pin 4 of the adapter and is closer to the Vdd/Vcc pin of the clock than are the pads on the lower surface of the board.  Should I move the 100nF cap to this location and install a 1mF cap on the bottom of the board?  I bought the 1mF caps (which are 0508) in case the 0306s were too difficult to install, so I have both.  Or, for that matter, should I use different values/types entirely?  Thanks in advance!



The cap values you using are the minimum recommended, looks OK to me.

I generally use the largest value I can find for the given SMD footprint and voltage rating.

You do however need to keep an eye on ESR, the measured value in your photo is about 10x too high. I suspect that your meter is not compensating properly for the DC resistance of the probes.
If you can change the measurement frequency use the highest possible setting

If the 2.6 ohm measurement is indeed correct, suggest you try another bypass cap


----------



## tdrood

b0bb said:


> The cap values you using are the minimum recommended, looks OK to me.
> 
> I generally use the largest value I can find for the given SMD footprint and voltage rating.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much b0bb.  It is indeed an order of magnitude lower @ 100KHz (at lease according to spec - should be about 0.10-ohm at 100KHz, 0.01-ohm @ 1MHz - see data below).  If I can change the frequency on my el-cheapo ESR meter, I don't know how...  I selected these caps specifically because they are low ESL (hence the form factor), because as I understand it, inductance is (or can be) the enemy to a large degree, for whatever that is worth.

The other question remains: do you think it is worth the effort to move the 0.1mF cap to the upper pad location and install a 1mF cap on the lower surface - or any combination thereof? 

I added the data for the 1mF cap below the 0.1mF data.


----------



## b0bb (Jan 5, 2020)

tdrood said:


> Thank you very much b0bb.  It is indeed an order of magnitude lower @ 100KHz (at lease according to spec - should be about 0.10-ohm at 100KHz, 0.01-ohm @ 1MHz - see data below).  If I can change the frequency on my el-cheapo ESR meter, I don't know how...  I selected these caps specifically because they are low ESL (hence the form factor), because as I understand it, inductance is (or can be) the enemy to a large degree, for whatever that is worth.
> 
> The other question remains: do you think it is worth the effort to move the 0.1mF cap to the upper pad location and install a 1mF cap on the lower surface - or any combination thereof?
> 
> I added the data for the 1mF cap below the 0.1mF data.



You have the minimum recommended capacitive bypass, I would leave it alone and move on.


If you really wanted to take this further, then take heed of what your instrument is trying to tell you.
2.6ohm ESR between the ground and power planes means that decoupling on the board is not effective, adding a bigger cap may not amount to much.

You could have a dry solder joint if you mixed leaded and unleaded solder or did not adequately heat the joint while using unleaded solder.


----------



## oldearwax (Jan 4, 2020)

ti5002000 said:


> Nice Job!
> 
> ...
> 
> At which temperature did you use heat gun to solder the sitime?




With shaky hands and aging eyes, I managed to mount the SiTime TCXO
on the Rhea board. The board's pads don't fit the small 5x3mm SiTime TCXO.
If enough people asks Brian, may be he will make another adapter board ?

I used MG Chemicals 4860P 63/37 lead paste. Melting point is 183C (~360F).
I used a thermal couple to calibrate the temperature of my hot air pencil.

A friend scoped the TCXO with a test board.
Ch1 is the clock, Ch2 is Vcc.

He said it is probably fine.

What do you guys think ?


----------



## b0bb (Jan 5, 2020)

oldearwax said:


> What do you guys think ?



Here is what my XO output looks like, limited by the 200Mhz Probe BW, which acts as a low pass filter, output looks like a near sinewave instead of a squarewave as a result.
Frequency is spot on 100Mhz


Noise waveform on the power supply pin, 200mV peak to peak at 100Mhz, could probably use additional decoupling



>


The output is quite distorted, try using the X10 probe setting and check the probe + scope capacitive loading is below 20pf


----------



## b0bb (Jan 5, 2020)

A couple of pictures of the rectifier switching noise on the 004. Measured on the analog side of the DAC

The highspeed diodes used exhibit a relatively nasty transition characterisic.
 

A close up shows this causes ringing as it interacts with the transformer inductance


On the LKS003 I replaced these diodes  with Vishay schottkys
Notice the spike is much less and the on-off transition is less abrupt.


----------



## geoffalter11

Hi all... I have a question for you LKS users, if you don’t mind. I currently own a Vinshine R2R Reference which is based on the Soekris DAC. Do you feel it would be an upgrade to the Vinshine? I know my question is pretty subjective, but curious what you all think. I have read thru this thread and the LKS sounds like a great DAC. Price wise the two are fairly similar. I use the Vinshine thru USB as it converts to I2S. Not sure if that is common for all DACs. I am using balanced with a THX 789 currently.  Thanks for any and all responses.


----------



## xiamen

geoffalter11 said:


> Hi all... I have a question for you LKS users, if you don’t mind. I currently own a Vinshine R2R Reference which is based on the Soekris DAC. Do you feel it would be an upgrade to the Vinshine? I know my question is pretty subjective, but curious what you all think. I have read thru this thread and the LKS sounds like a great DAC. Price wise the two are fairly similar. I use the Vinshine thru USB as it converts to I2S. Not sure if that is common for all DACs. I am using balanced with a THX 789 currently.  Thanks for any and all responses.


The 004 is similar vintage to your dac, a few years old. Why aren't you looking at newer dacs, like from Vinshine themselves. Personally, I think technologies move on. In general, you get improvements at cost effectivity with newer versions.


----------



## geoffalter11

xiamen said:


> The 004 is similar vintage to your dac, a few years old. Why aren't you looking at newer dacs, like from Vinshine themselves. Personally, I think technologies move on. In general, you get improvements at cost effectivity with newer versions.


I am looking at them all. Alvin thinks I should move to a Pontus. I have also looked at the Matrix Sabre DAC.


----------



## tdrood

b0bb said:


> You have the minimum recommended capacitive bypass, I would leave it alone and move on.
> 
> 
> If you really wanted to take this further, then take heed of what your instrument is trying to tell you.
> ...



I measured the three spare 0.1mF caps (identical to the installed ones) and they all read 2.4-ohm esr out of circuit.  I could put in a 1mF but the data sheet clearly specifies 0.1mF closest to Vdd pin and 1.0mF within 1-2 inches from the Vdd pin. I assumed that the 004 would have 1mF decoupling cap within 2 inches of the oem clock, and that’s why I used the 0.1mF.  To be clear, I am not questioning your judgement - quite the contrary, I am trying to learn from you.  That said, I will do whatever you think is optimal.  Thanks b0bb!

T


----------



## b0bb

tdrood said:


> I measured the three spare 0.1mF caps (identical to the installed ones) and they all read 2.4-ohm esr out of circuit.  I could put in a 1mF but the data sheet clearly specifies 0.1mF closest to Vdd pin and 1.0mF within 1-2 inches from the Vdd pin. I assumed that the 004 would have 1mF decoupling cap within 2 inches of the oem clock, and that’s why I used the 0.1mF.  To be clear, I am not questioning your judgement - quite the contrary, I am trying to learn from you.  That said, I will do whatever you think is optimal.  Thanks b0bb!
> 
> T


Sometimes parts come with an anti-corrosion lacquer coating, you could try to burn it off and see if things improve, for ROHS unleaded solder coated parts the iron has to be set at 750F/400C to completely melt the solder, also make sure you have properly accounted for  the DC resistance of the probe leads. Measure the 1uF cap while you are at it.

If none of the above lowers the measured ESR you will need to start spending money on a 300MHz BW or better oscilloscope and/or better ESR meter if you are looking for specific answers.

With the scope you can look around what is actually happening on the VDD pin, the more effective the decoupling, the lower the peak to peak noise voltage, on my unmodified Gen1 004 it is 200mV


----------



## Ethereal Sound

Just curious, is the heat output on this DAC still an issue for some people? I'm trying to decide between this and possibly a used Auralic Vega G1 and not sure how it would compare.


----------



## xiamen

geoffalter11 said:


> I am looking at them all. Alvin thinks I should move to a Pontus. I have also looked at the Matrix Sabre DAC.


The 004 does use many high quality components. I would say a few years ago it was one of the better dacs on the market. In my mind, it has a few shortcomings, and it's a pity LKS did not come up with a new version like a 005. I don't like the Amanero usb/i2s bridge they used. They fiddled with the firmware for this for years now and still hasn't fix up all the problems. The clock they came with is very low spec, power supply has noise issues etc. But if you are a modder and can get one at cheap price (like what someone posted earlier re one of massdrop campaigns), then it is worth it. It's more moddable than for example the Matrix Sabre especially at the moment you get generous help from someone like Bobb on this forum. I still have my 004 and will one day when I have nothing better to do, sit down and do all those mods detailed in the last few hundred pages on this forum.


----------



## geoffalter11

xiamen said:


> The 004 does use many high quality components. I would say a few years ago it was one of the better dacs on the market. In my mind, it has a few shortcomings, and it's a pity LKS did not come up with a new version like a 005. I don't like the Amanero usb/i2s bridge they used. They fiddled with the firmware for this for years now and still hasn't fix up all the problems. The clock they came with is very low spec, power supply has noise issues etc. But if you are a modder and can get one at cheap price (like what someone posted earlier re one of massdrop campaigns), then it is worth it. It's more moddable than for example the Matrix Sabre especially at the moment you get generous help from someone like Bobb on this forum. I still have my 004 and will one day when I have nothing better to do, sit down and do all those mods detailed in the last few hundred pages on this forum.


Thank you. I appreciate what you have written. My Vinshine uses a similar Amanero USB/I2S bridge. I ended up buying a Schiit Wyrd to clean my USB signal. That was the single biggest improvement I have made to the sound of my system.  I recently tested it again and removed the Wyrd, then put it back in and the difference is not subtle.  I am not a fiddler or modder. I do not have the ability to do any of what Bobb is helping everyone do. It isn't in my nature to open up a piece of equipment and modify the components. The first 20 pages of this thread gushes over this DAC, and then it changes. That was the reason for the questions. I owned a Metrum Musette before the Vinshine and I ended up selling for a 65% reduction as no one would buy it. You are right, technology moves on. The truth is that my DAC sounds really good. Most likely I will need to spend significantly more to improve my DAC as selling a Vinshine won't net me close to what I invested.  I have only owned 1 Sigma DAC. It was in my Audeze Deckard, which was my first piece when I started in the hobby. I immediately switched to a R2R/NOS DAC and have only owned that type since. Thanks again for the feedback. I think I need to save up and then decide. I spent the last couple weeks with a TT2 on a loaner program. I was blown away by it's ability to extract detail in such a pristine and musical way. Then again the TT2 is significantly more expensive than my Vinshine. Nonetheless, my Vinshine didn't sound $3500 less. Price to performance was closer than that.


----------



## MartinWT

I bought the LKS specifically for its I2S input.  As with all great plans, I found after much use that I just could not get the same frequency balance and tonality that I could achieve from the S/PDIF inputs.  I changed my streamer to one (the Asus Tinker Board S) that provides USB output into my Mutec reclocker so that I could send AES to the LKS.  The DAC revels in the high quality reclocked signal via AES and does a far better job than it ever did via I2S.  It goes to show that sometimes you have to stop and re-target.  I rate the LKS, with a different clock and some power supply capacitor changes, very highly when playing from AES.


----------



## oldearwax

b0bb said:


> Here is what my XO output looks like, limited by the 200Mhz Probe BW, which acts as a low pass filter, output looks like a near sinewave instead of a squarewave as a result. ....
> 
> The output is quite distorted, try using the X10 probe setting and check the probe + scope capacitive loading is below 20pf



Thank you b0bb. 


My second attempt:


 

I remount the SiTime clock.
Fig a was mounted with some wires. Waveform is distorted ... notice the discontinuity in rise time.
Fig b was mounted without the wires, but slightly offset (using both the long and short pads of the rhea board)...
waveform is traced with full bandwidth and 250MHz. Due to the test fixture (grounding and probe impedance)
Fig b doesn't look like a square wave.  With a much shorter ground of the probe, I saw the "square" wave.


----------



## MartinWT

Found out today that my USB input is the Amanero Combo384 board despite having ordered the LKS with the basic USB option. I'm not complaining!


----------



## MartinWT

I have a problem.  I came to my system and found that it wouldn't play music.  After a lot of troubleshooting, I have established that the LKS is at fault.  All four S/PDIF inputs (BNC, co-ax, optical, AES) show the same symptoms: when I start playing music it locks and shows the correct sample rate, but there is no audio output.  The USB input works normally.

I guess that S/PDIF is switched between the four inputs and then there is common receive circuitry.  It appears to be receiving the clock but not decoding the music.  If USB works, then I guess by the time the audio appears on the I2S bus all is well.

Could anyone give me pointers as to what may be the problem?  Receive chip?  Coupling cap?  Something else?


----------



## oldearwax (Jan 15, 2020)

MartinWT said:


> ....  All four S/PDIF inputs (BNC, co-ax, optical, AES) show the same symptoms: when I start playing music it locks and shows the correct sample rate, but there is no audio output.  The USB input works normally.
> 
> I guess that S/PDIF is switched between the four inputs and then there is common receive circuitry.  It appears to be receiving the clock but not decoding the music.  If USB works, then I guess by the time the audio appears on the I2S bus all is well.
> ...


Sorry to hear that.
I don't have the schematic of LKS. So what follows is just a wild guess.
NB: LKS uses dual ES9038. So LKS and "Tone board" architectures may be
completely different.

I read the schematic of the "Tone Board" which also uses ES9038: spif goes into ES9038 via GPIO
and usb is converted to i2c before entering ES9038.

Is it possible on the LKS .. all the serial inputs go thru  analog switch/multiplexer before reaching
ES9038 ? If so, look for analog switches and  GPIO pins (17 or 18) of ES9038 ?


----------



## MartinWT

Thanks.  Is there a power rail that could have failed that only feeds the S/PDIF circuitry?


----------



## xiamen

MartinWT said:


> Thanks.  Is there a power rail that could have failed that only feeds the S/PDIF circuitry?


If it's power to s/pdif circuitry problem only, then usb input should work. Try that. Are you sure it's LKS. Have you try system with different dac. If it doesn't seem to be decoding, may be the clock. I would use multimeter to check if there is correct voltage to clock. .


----------



## MartinWT

xiamen said:


> If it's power to s/pdif circuitry problem only, then usb input should work. Try that. Are you sure it's LKS. Have you try system with different dac. If it doesn't seem to be decoding, may be the clock. I would use multimeter to check if there is correct voltage to clock.


USB input DOES work!  Yes, I'm sure it's the LKS having eliminated everything else and used a substitute DAC.

Thanks for the clock suggestion.


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> I guess that S/PDIF is switched between the four inputs and then there is common receive circuitry.  It appears to be receiving the clock but not decoding the music.  If USB works, then I guess by the time the audio appears on the I2S bus all is well.
> 
> Could anyone give me pointers as to what may be the problem?  Receive chip?  Coupling cap?  Something else?



It could be any of those components. Playback a 1kHz sinewave on the SPDIF input and observe the pattern on an oscilloscope, start at the input connector and trace until the pattern disappears.

The 2 rectangular chips near the 3 large red WIMA caps are either line drivers or multiplexors, you will have to locate the datasheet to determine this.
Check to see there is signal and that it is powered to spec.

ES9038PRO has 8 spdif inputs on pins 60 to 52, Pin60 is SPDIF0.
I expect the signal to be present on ports 0 to 7 on the LKS004.

There is a circle/dot on the chip, with that on the top left corner, the above mentioned pins are on the top edge, pin 64 is closest to the dot.


----------



## MartinWT

Thanks, b0bb. I decided to break out my old oscilloscope and look at the Coherent clock module output. There is only noise!

This is good news as it means the rest of the DAC is fine and it sounds pretty good from the Amanero USB input.

I shall return it to Coherent for repairs.


----------



## oldearwax

MartinWT said:


> Thanks, b0bb. I decided to break out my old oscilloscope and look at the Coherent clock module output. There is only noise!
> 
> This is good news as it means the rest of the DAC is fine and it sounds pretty good from the Amanero USB input.
> 
> I shall return it to Coherent for repairs.



The Coherent clock is the system 100MHz clock. The system clock goes to ES9038 DACs.
If the system clock fails, you shouldn't hear anything ..... I am puzzled ???
I hope your oscope has sufficient bandwidth.


----------



## MartinWT

When I first tried to replace the 100MHz clock and botched it, the symptoms were exactly the same: clock lock with correct sampling rate shown but no muslc.

I didn't try USB at the time.


----------



## xiamen

That is strange. I would agree if the coherent clock is the problem, then probably USB shouldn't work too. Is it possible that with USB, it can use the Amanero clock instead of the coherent clock (that doesn't  seem to make sense either).  BTW, the upgraded version uses the same Amanero module but with upgraded clock. I guess check if there is any problem with the coherent clock.


----------



## MartinWT

Thanks.  I'm somewhat confused about it, too.  I'll be letting Coherent check it out soon.


----------



## piaseczek

Do you know if there is a "Ess hump" in a LKS 004? 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ow-to-fix-ess-hump-on-sgd1-and-la-qxd1.10502/


----------



## MartinWT

The ES9038Q2M is not used in the LKS.


----------



## MartinWT

Egg on face time.  The LKS has been declared as working fine, no issues found.  I'm happy with that and will take the embarrassment on the chin.

We discussed possible grounding problems (ground-based lockout happens with computers, something I come across working in IT).  I shall start with a very straightforward hookup and build up the grounding box arrangements differently.

At least I'll have high quality music replay again.  The loan NuForce DAC80 is somewhat restrained and average in presentation.


----------



## mb3

in case anyone is interested

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/L-K-S-A...952510?hash=item1ce306b77e:g:lXIAAOSw~WpeNSJW


----------



## MartinWT

The DAC has been further modified while it was away with Tony of Coherent. I can't remember the detail of all the mods but the key areas were rewiring the mains input side with 3D cable and twisting the transformer pairs; lots of capacitor improvements using those superb K caps that Tony has specially made for him; some ultra high performance LT regulators to replace the standard ones; faster diodes in the rectifier section and trimming the balanced output DC offsets.

Firstly, I tried the DAC driving the power amp direct, but this time from the XLR outputs. Decidedly better than when I had tried it from the phono outputs some time ago, but there was still something lacking, it all sounding slightly lightweight. Then I reinserted the buffer between DAC and power amp and the potency and slam were back.

The LKS still has its detail and dynamic potency (strengths of the ES9038 chipset) but somehow seems calmer now, delivering the music without effort and with even lower levels of harshness than before.

Then I played with the grounding boxes. There are almost infinite permutations so forgive me for not trying them all. I did try, at one point, grounding the reclocker with all four leads from the SGS-1s but that wasn't as good as I had heard the system before.

I've now settled on this arrangement, but being very careful to route cables hanging in the air rather than touching each other:
SGS-1 to the router (via the power plug)
SGS-1s to the DAC (two cables to analogue and digital grounds) and the buffer (two cables to output grounds)
BR Eflos USB to the streamer
BR Eflos phono to the reclocker (S/PDIF ground)

Something I’ve noted, a clue that there is less system noise and better grounding, is that the Mutec locks faster than before. I often missed the start of a song while it sync’d with the blue LED flashing. Now the music starts even before the LED has stopped flashing.

I think the DAC still needs more hours to complete its burn-in but what Tony has given me is the best of the LKS' abilities – detail, impact, bass extension and power – without any Sabre hardness or treble tilt. What I also notice is a whole wealth of extra texture and new sounds now brought to my attention. The power of Kraftwerk's Minimum-Maximum is still there but I'm hearing a lot more from this amazing live album while the overall potency has taken another step up.


----------



## Xoverman

MartinWT said:


> The DAC has been further modified while it was away with Tony of Coherent. I can't remember the detail of all the mods but the key areas were rewiring the mains input side with 3D cable and twisting the transformer pairs; lots of capacitor improvements using those superb K caps that Tony has specially made for him; some ultra high performance LT regulators to replace the standard ones; faster diodes in the rectifier section and trimming the balanced output DC offsets.
> 
> Firstly, I tried the DAC driving the power amp direct, but this time from the XLR outputs. Decidedly better than when I had tried it from the phono outputs some time ago, but there was still something lacking, it all sounding slightly lightweight. Then I reinserted the buffer between DAC and power amp and the potency and slam were back.
> 
> ...


@MartinWT
Can you please share with us the buffers you are yousing? 
I am also thinking off yousing buffers after the conversation I/V conversation stage.
Op amps from "Sparko Labs" to drive the XLR outputs.


----------



## MartinWT

I am using an external buffer, a Burson AB-160 XLR buffer, from the LKS' XLR outputs. The FET outputs are good (and a lot better sounding than the phono outputs) but they do still need buffering for best grunt and slam into my power amp.


----------



## Lennym

The SQ of my LKS seems to vary according to the day and hour.  It does this much more than other sources, like analog.  As I live in a large city, it is probably a local power issue.  Has anyone found a small power filter or re-generator used in front of the LKS alone to be an effective device?  Other solutions?  Thanks.


----------



## MartinWT

My LKS is very sensitive to power quality and power cable. Not exclusively for the LKS, I'm using a PS Audio Stellar P3 regenerator for it and my streamer. This, with a Coherent 6D power cable, makes it truly sing and it hardly varies its performance at all now.


----------



## geoffalter11

Whitigir said:


> Finally, it is here. Couldn't wait to set her in ! Can not believe the build quality of the chassis and even the remote control itself is solid chunk of milled aluminum.


Do you still use this DAC? If so, are your impressions still similar? I just read a thread on audiogon about this DAC and a few folks felt it stood up nicely against a Chord DAVE at 7-8 times the cost. I am in the market for a new DAC and still considering this one. I know it is a few years old, but can’t shake that it would be a good way to go. I have never owned a delta sigma DAC. I currently use a Vinshine R2R Reference that is roughly the same age as the 004. To those 004 owners, what are your thoughts?


----------



## MartinWT

I love my LKS but it is somewhat modified from stock now.  Great build quality and nice large PCB make it very moddable.


----------



## geoffalter11

MartinWT said:


> I love my LKS but it is somewhat modified from stock now.  Great build quality and nice large PCB make it very moddable.


Thank you. I am not someone who will modify my own DAC.  I have no experience.  I see lots of the thread is about modding the LKS.  Ultimately, if I can't use it right out of the box, I will look elsewhere.


----------



## littlexx26

geoffalter11 said:


> Thank you. I am not someone who will modify my own DAC.  I have no experience.  I see lots of the thread is about modding the LKS.  Ultimately, if I can't use it right out of the box, I will look elsewhere.


You dont have to modify this and that here and there. What others doing...changing caps, transistors, clocks etc....maybe you can get the same or even better results by just changing a piece of fuse at the back.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 14, 2020)

Amanero has new NativeDSD (non DoP) firmware for the Combo384 used in the 004.




This latest version eliminated the dropouts on DSD512.

On my modified unit it puts it within striking distance of the SU6.

Amanero bests the SU6 on highly compressed rock tracks, keeping focussed on the vocals whilst the Singxer starts to lose coherence for example Springsteens's Dancing in the Dark from the Born in the USA album.

SU6 has the edge on the musical presence, there is  more depth and 3D-like soudstage.
Solo instruments are more expressive on the SU6.

The Amanero is better than the SU1 in all respects with the latest firmware.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> Amanero has new NativeDSD (non DoP) firmware for the Combo384 used in the 004.
> 
> This latest version eliminated the dropouts on DSD512.
> 
> ...


Hi. Is Amanero better than modded Kitsune SU-1? Is your Amanero card moddded or stock?


----------



## MartinWT

littlexx26 said:


> You dont have to modify this and that here and there. What others doing...changing caps, transistors, clocks etc....maybe you can get the same or even better results by just changing a piece of fuse at the back.


No, you can't.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 15, 2020)

wersuss said:


> Hi. Is Amanero better than modded Kitsune SU-1? Is your Amanero card moddded or stock?



My Amanero is the enhanced board with the Crystek 95x XOs and the LT3042 regulator based LPS.
This is the best version LKS makes. LPS modded to reduce the ESR of the output caps.

The modded Kitsune costs more than the SU6, it looks to me like a regulator mod.

If you are looking to get an external unit, I think SU6 is a better choice.
It has a couple of features the SU1 lacks like the temp controlled 95x master clock and
just as important it is a true single clock domain implementation in the datapath with the XMOS clock slaved to the 95x


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> My Amanero is the enhanced board with the Crystek 95x XOs and the LT3042 regulator based LPS.
> This is the best version LKS makes. LPS modded to reduce the ESR of the output caps.
> 
> The modded Kitsune costs more than the SU6, it looks to me like a regulator mod.
> ...


Thank you. Which firmware is newest 1081 CPLD and 2006be11?


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Thank you. Which firmware is newest 1081 CPLD and 2006be11?



Download Oemtool117 from Amanero's site.

Select 2006be11 and 1081_CPLD_DSDSWAPPED from Oemtool117.

The tool will fetch the firmware once you have selected the above options


----------



## Psilonaught (Apr 24, 2020)

Test


----------



## Gilberto 62 (Apr 13, 2020)

Hello everyone. This is my first post here, as I am very interested in the LKS mh-da004 and, before buying it, I would like to give me your opinion regarding:
-This will be my first dac. Do you think that currently (spring 2020) is still a very good dac ...?
-Does there still support firmware updates on the LKS website ...?
      Thank you very much for your opinion. Greetings from Barcelona.


----------



## b0bb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Hello everyone. This is my first post here, as I am very interested in the LKS mh-da004 and, before buying it, I would like to give me your opinion regarding:
> -This will be my first dac. Do you think that currently (spring 2020) is still a very good dac ...?
> -Does there still support firmware updates on the LKS website ...?
> Thank you very much for your opinion. Greetings from Barcelona.



The LKS 004 in stock form is nothing special in 2020 but it has a lot of untapped potential.

A modern DAC is  2 main parts 
1)Digital to Analog converter
2)DSP for sample rate conversion for PCM and SDM remodulation for DSD

LKS004 main strength is (1) in particular, the analog stage with the final operating state in a high bias Class-A.
One of the reasons Class-A output stages when properly designed, can have very wide bandwidth and this is needed if the DAC is expected to show improvement with music of higher sampling rates. The LKS 004 performs very well with high bitrate material, at DSD512 the highest sampling rate is 24.576MHz

The analog stage will need at least 50-100MHz in order for the converter to not run into signal induced slew rate limiting of the output stage.
One element of that is a high bias current.
The LKS 004 has a measured idle output stage current of between 60-70mA this is about 3-6x that of competing designs.

This makes the DAC expensive to manufacture and prices have not moved since it was introduced in early 2017

There is stiff competition from the likes of Gustard and Matrix at this pricepoint.
The analog portions of these competitors are not as good, relying built in custom DSP processing to make up the difference.

The LKS uses the stock filters from ESS relying on a good analog frontend for the performance.

Either option (LKS or the competition) will do the job, more so if you are looking for a single box to plug in to you digital music source.

If you go with the LKS you never have to worry about firmware updates as it does not have any custom "special sauce" that requires firmware maintenence.
The USB interface is licensed from Amanero and the updates come from Amanero directly, updating is optional.

If you want to take this further, major portions of the DSP processing chain can be done outside of the DAC, typically with a reasonably capable PC, running specialized audio DSP software for example Roon or HQPlayer.

This can be done with the LKS or any of it competitors, with the competition much of the custom DSP is bypassed and with it the money spent there.
This gives LKS the advantage as most of the manufacturing budget is spent on the good analog stage and good quality power supplies so there is less waste.

When used with a properly implemented outboard DSP resampling, ordinary 44.1kHz CD source material can take a greater advantage of higher sampling rates on offer today.
Higher sampling rates give more headroom to implement sophisticated DSP algorithms, which in turn, can do more to move the sampling noise and artifacts further away from the audio band.

This, of course, assumes that the analog part of the DAC is up to the task, as it under a lot more stress with increasing sampling rates.

Beyond this is hardware modification like installing a better master clock.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Thank you very much for your extended and professional response, "b0bb". I, as you may have already guessed, am inexperienced in all this "overhauling" of a dac, so my use of the LKS would be as it comes from the factory. But I have been reading the opinions of the users of this dac in forums for more than a year and I have always read good things about it, except that at first it seemed to accumulate a lot of heat, but I think that is already solved. Another option would be the Matrix X-Sabre Pro "mqa", but I don't know if it would be a better option and it deserves that extra expense. And yes, it is true, the price of the LKS has not dropped, it has remained the same or more expensive. I am thinking of buying it on "Clear Components", a German website on eBay. Thank you very much "b0bb" for your opinion and if you want to tell me something more or anything, I will be happy to read you. Greetings to all...


----------



## b0bb (Apr 15, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Thank you very much for your extended and professional response, "b0bb". I, as you may have already guessed, am inexperienced in all this "overhauling" of a dac, so my use of the LKS would be as it comes from the factory. But I have been reading the opinions of the users of this dac in forums for more than a year and I have always read good things about it, except that at first it seemed to accumulate a lot of heat, but I think that is already solved. Another option would be the Matrix X-Sabre Pro "mqa", but I don't know if it would be a better option and it deserves that extra expense. And yes, it is true, the price of the LKS has not dropped, it has remained the same or more expensive. I am thinking of buying it on "Clear Components", a German website on eBay. Thank you very much "b0bb" for your opinion and if you want to tell me something more or anything, I will be happy to read you. Greetings to all...


The MQA capability is an interesting technical curiosity, I am not convinced about its merits to pay extra for the feature.

The closed proprietary nature of MQA is not something I want in my music library.

MQA was introduced in 2014, at that time hi-res audio was not widely available, it promised the hi-res experience with the bandwidth requirement of CD Redbook audio
In the last 6 years there was a substantial increase hi-res audio for sale at reasonable prices without needing MQA, this makes MQA somewhat redundant.

Most of the affordable hi-res music available comes from small independent dealers and I spend my money with them to keep this going for as long as possible.

MQA has a niche in the Tidal streaming service, if you like the catalog on offer and will pay the asking price (240USD/yr), MQA might be interesting.


----------



## Gilberto 62 (Apr 15, 2020)

Good morning and thanks again, "b0bb".
    Thank you for giving me your opinion, which will be very valuable in deciding on the purchase of the dac. The thing is between the LKS and the Matrix Saber mqa, there I have to decide. So, I'm going to ask you a typical question from a novice like me and, please, forgive my ignorance: I have enough "24 bit / 96 khz" audio files and I need to know if those files or others that I can download from Qobuz who are "Hi-res" ...
-... can I listen to them with the LKS ...?
-... will I hear them much better with the Matrix ...?
-... if you had to choose between those two dacs, which one would you choose ...?
     Thank you very, very much for your valuable answer. A grateful greeting from this newbie ...

P.D. : ... is that the appearance and size of the LKS is, for me, much more attractive ...


----------



## b0bb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Good morning and thanks again, "b0bb".
> Thank you for giving me your opinion, which will be very valuable in deciding on the purchase of the dac. The thing is between the LKS and the Matrix Saber mqa, there I have to decide. So, I'm going to ask you a typical question from a novice like me and, please, forgive my ignorance: I have enough "24 bit / 96 khz" audio files and I need to know if those files or others that I can download from Qobuz who are "Hi-res" ...
> -... can I listen to them with the LKS ...?
> -... will I hear them much better with the Matrix ...?
> ...


Playback will depend on the media player you connect to the LKS.

Given the cost of the units in excess of 1500USD, you should consider doing side-by-side comparison with the DACs in person.

I am not interested in the Matrix for the following reasons
1) I want a DAC with separate transformers for the  analog and digital portions, Matrix has only 1
2) Dual mono ES9038 for the DAC, Matrix has 1 ES9038
3) Separate primary and secondary power supplies, connected to separate transformer windings on LKS not on Matrix.
4) LKS has a lot of physical separation and shielding  of the analog and DAC portion from the rest of the digital circuits, Matrix is too cramped together
5) Too much of the manufacturing cost is sunk into the expensive CNC machined case, raising the cost of the DAC, the extra money could have been better used to add more power supplies/transformers or to make 2X ES9038 in Dual mono configuration
6) Expensive touch panel on the Matrix.
7) Cost sunk into the FPGA, much of that is better done elsewhere eg HQPlayer for the DSP, Singxer SU-1/SU-6 for the signal isolation and reclocking, this keeps the noise outside of the DAC.
8) No airflow in the case, ES9038 chip is cooled from the bottom to the baseplate, Matrix could have done more to the case top to cool the top of the chip instead of a small heatsink. Money spent on the CNC tooling could have been used to add an extension to the top case touching the chip to draw heat away.  It is disappointing that the CNC machining was done to just make a pretty case.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Thanks again b0bb. Well, I think I decided on the LKS then. In principle, my configuration will be pc + foobar + lks, since I am very used to foobar for now, later I will test HQP, since I see that everyone works with it. I will also buy a good usb cable, Audioquest perhaps, although I do not know what you will think about the esoteric world of cables ... Well b0bb, any comment from you will be a pleasure for me. Greetings to all.


----------



## wwmhf

b0bb said:


> The LKS 004 in stock form is nothing special in 2020 but it has a lot of untapped potential.
> 
> A modern DAC is  2 main parts
> 1)Digital to Analog converter
> ...



This is very helpful, thanks


----------



## Gilberto 62

Well, my LKS is already ordered and on my way home ...


----------



## aggielaw

Say, the new Amanero FW indicates native DSD512 on both Windows and Linux.  One great frustration I've had with the LKS is its inability to do more than DSD128 with Linux.  I have a capable Windows 10 64-bit PC running my roon server, but it feeds an SOtM sms-200ultra neo streamer, which is Linux-based.

Can someone confirm flashing the latest firmware will enable DSD up to 512 with the Linux-based device feeding the LKS?

Many thanks!


----------



## b0bb

aggielaw said:


> Say, the new Amanero FW indicates native DSD512 on both Windows and Linux.  One great frustration I've had with the LKS is its inability to do more than DSD128 with Linux.  I have a capable Windows 10 64-bit PC running my roon server, but it feeds an SOtM sms-200ultra neo streamer, which is Linux-based.
> 
> Can someone confirm flashing the latest firmware will enable DSD up to 512 with the Linux-based device feeding the LKS?
> 
> Many thanks!


The latest Amanero firmware (2006be11) works in native DSD mode on the SMS-200.
Don't forget to enable DSD512 and Native mode on the Roon widget on the SMS-200.


----------



## aggielaw

b0bb said:


> The latest Amanero firmware (2006be11) works in native DSD mode on the SMS-200.
> Don't forget to enable DSD512 and Native mode on the Roon widget on the SMS-200.


Thanks b0bb!


----------



## aggielaw

Well, the firmware flash does not appear to have gone as intended.  I updated as shown in the photo, and it was successful.  However, now roon does not show DSD capability in the device setup page when I set the SOtM configuration to Native and x512.  If I select Native/DOP in the Eunhasu roon widget, I get DSD x64 and x128.  

Also, I blew the fuse in the LKS carrying it back to the basement.  I have a Mundorf Supreme and a Synergistic Research fuse to get me through, but I like the stock fuse best.  I have an inquiry in with Jinbo to learn how I can order more stock fuses. 

Any ideas as to why I'm not getting DSD out of roon with thew new Amanero firmware?

On the bright side, I finally installed the L3042 USB power supply I bought from minishow028 on ebay nine months ago.  Playback via USB is noticeably improved now.

Thanks for your advice!


----------



## b0bb

aggielaw said:


> Well, the firmware flash does not appear to have gone as intended.  I updated as shown in the photo, and it was successful.  However, now roon does not show DSD capability in the device setup page when I set the SOtM configuration to Native and x512.  If I select Native/DOP in the Eunhasu roon widget, I get DSD x64 and x128.
> 
> Also, I blew the fuse in the LKS carrying it back to the basement.  I have a Mundorf Supreme and a Synergistic Research fuse to get me through, but I like the stock fuse best.  I have an inquiry in with Jinbo to learn how I can order more stock fuses.
> 
> ...


The USB interface has to be disconnected and powered off in between the 2 flash updates, turn off and unplug the LKS.
Just put it into firmware flash update mode and try again.

If the flash update is successful the card will announce Altset2 for DSD over usb


----------



## Gilberto 62

Good morning guys. Finally, I already have my LKS at home. I'm still waiting for the usb cable to arrive, an Audioquest diamond. Please, you who understand all this, I would like to ask you a question. I have always read that it is necessary to burn the dac for a few days, blah, blah, blah ... You think it convenient that, as long as the usb cable arrives at my house (... one week ...), keep the LKS on. ..? Or do you think this is huge nonsense ...? Sorry if the question seems idiotic, but it's my recent start in the dac world. Thanks for your opinion.
P.S. : "... maybe I'll be lucky and our great connoisseur" b0bb "will light my way ..."


----------



## oldearwax

Gilberto 62 said:


> Good morning guys. Finally, I already have my LKS at home. I'm still waiting for the usb cable to arrive, an Audioquest diamond. Please, you who understand all this, I would like to ask you a question. I have always read that it is necessary to burn the dac for a few days, blah, blah, blah ... You think it convenient that, as long as the usb cable arrives at my house (... one week ...), keep the LKS on. ..? Or do you think this is huge nonsense ...? Sorry if the question seems idiotic, but it's my recent start in the dac world. Thanks for your opinion.
> P.S. : "... maybe I'll be lucky and our great connoisseur" b0bb "will light my way ..."



For the mean time, use the factory cable to setup foobar , DSP and DSD plugins, drivers (from Amanero web site) .
I returned my first copy of this DAC (one channel failed).
Please report what you think  of the sound ?
PS: b0bb is very generous, very appreciated here.


----------



## b0bb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Good morning guys. Finally, I already have my LKS at home. I'm still waiting for the usb cable to arrive, an Audioquest diamond. Please, you who understand all this, I would like to ask you a question. I have always read that it is necessary to burn the dac for a few days, blah, blah, blah ... You think it convenient that, as long as the usb cable arrives at my house (... one week ...), keep the LKS on. ..? Or do you think this is huge nonsense ...? Sorry if the question seems idiotic, but it's my recent start in the dac world. Thanks for your opinion.
> P.S. : "... maybe I'll be lucky and our great connoisseur" b0bb "will light my way ..."


That very much depends on the specific model, with the LKS004 the sound and presentation will undergo changes in the first two weeks.

Leaving it on contiunuously is one option but keep an eye for early failures as @oldearwax mentioned


----------



## b0bb

aggielaw said:


> Well, the firmware flash does not appear to have gone as intended.  I updated as shown in the photo, and it was successful.  However, now roon does not show DSD capability in the device setup page when I set the SOtM configuration to Native and x512.  If I select Native/DOP in the Eunhasu roon widget, I get DSD x64 and x128.
> 
> Also, I blew the fuse in the LKS carrying it back to the basement.  I have a Mundorf Supreme and a Synergistic Research fuse to get me through, but I like the stock fuse best.  I have an inquiry in with Jinbo to learn how I can order more stock fuses.
> 
> ...


Double check the firmware file you are using the ones for DSD are
firmware_2006be11 and cpld_1081_dsdswapped.

The settings in your screencap below is for the non-DSD firmware but the CPLD file selected is for the DSD firmware.



You should re-flash your card


----------



## aggielaw

@b0bb Thank you a million times for your help with this!  I successfully flashed both firmware, and now have DSD512 over USB.

Unfortunately, I also blew the Mudorf Supreme fuse with a startling "pop" and spark unplugging the power cord just before reattaching the back plate.  That was a $100 or so mishap.

Fortunately, I had one last fuse for the LKS, a Synergistic Red fuse.  

The sound quality took a significant leap, both with redbook playback and DSD vs any previous configuration I used.  I think it may be time to sell my Sonore ultraDigital.

b0bb and others with this firmware update: did you experience improved sound quality after the firmware update as well?


----------



## AuxInput

LKS STOCK IMPRESSIONS

So this DAC has been on my list for a couple years.  I have done a lot of R&D and testing with different types of circuits and design approaches.  I will say that if I had to create and design a DAC, this LKS DAC does almost everything right.  Got the DAC on February 24th, but waited until now to post my experiences (it took this long to go through all that).

The current release LKS looks a little different then the pictures I have seen, probably something like Gen 3 at this point. Those yucky silver mica caps are gone and replaced with normal film caps (good thing!). That would have been one of the first things I did. This DAC is quite heavy. Excellent build quality.

Initial sound was extremely clean, but with a tight sound and a tight edge (first power up). Just a couple of hours made a big difference in sound. The stock sound is so clean! With excellent high frequency resolution and accuracy. There have been complaints in the forums for the ESS DAC chip having a “glare”. Listening to this, I can sort of see what they are talking about, but it really depends on system. The stock DAC is so high resolution that any silver cables will definitely be too bright! I swapped the stock fuse with a Furutech and that got rid of some of glare characteristic. ..wiating to see how this breaks in.

Actually, I’m wondering if some of the glare you guys are talking about are coming from those silver mica caps on the I/V stage.  I do know that they are usually bright in the highs and silver mica are known to be microphonic, which supports the idea that putting in EFI shielding against the transformers will help the glare.

========

My system uses all Audioquest NRG-4 power cables chopped and re-terminated with Furutech rhodium plugs.  All interconnect are 20awg solid core OCC copper braided and using Furutech rhodium XLR connections.  Preamp is highly modified rebuilt Rane stereo line mixer with outboard linear power supply and uses a Sonic Imagery 994 op amp for input stage and two Burson V6 Vivid op amps for balanced output stage.  In the line mixer I have actually completely bypassed two op amp circuits in the middle.  Connected to Yamaha HS8 studio monitors that are internally rebuilt with upgraded capacitors and dynamat on interior cabinet.  All have Furutech fuse upgrades.

========

Well, I’ve fully burned it in with a new 3.15A Furutech fuse (last one available).

The sound is extremely clean. However, it’s somewhat forward in the upper mids and has a bit of a glare. It’s also not as natural sounding as my highly modified/rebuilt Emotiva DAC. It also doesn’t have as much high frequency extension and air.  The bass is also not as hard hitting as my Emotiva DAC.  At this point, I can see why the LKS dac has not won some DAC shootouts.

The glare could be from a few different things:

Glare from Nichicon MUSE capacitors
575 clock for DAC needs to be upgraded
EM/noise or other elements
Modification project to follow.


----------



## AuxInput

LKS MODIFICATIONS

I have done a significantly more amount of work than most people would do.  However, it all adds up in the end.  With all the upgrades, this DAC no longer resembles stock.  The resolution and attack are amazing.  High frequency detail is significantly improved and much more realistic.  Bass is significantly stronger (think “punch you in the chest” type of bass).  This DAC is now absolutely beautiful to listen to.

This is the work I have done:

A/C input
--------------------
- Furutech gold IEC => Upgraded to Furutech Rhodium IEC
- Fuse => Upgraded to Furutech Rhodium 3.15A  (not available anymore)
- Transformer Secondary wires => twisted like everyone else
- Rectifier Diodes =>  All 24 diodes upgraded to 8A Vishay Schottky Diodes (VS-8TQ100-M3)


Digital Power Supply
--------------------
- 4x6800uf Gold Tune caps => Initially I upgraded these to 4x10,000uf Nichicon KW.  I can’t remember where I read this, but I’ve read that Gold Tune are not as tight sounding and somewhat laid back.  Anyways, I wanted to boost the capacitance, so I used KW caps.  Later, I decided to go and upgrade to all Mundorf.  I used a Mundorf 22,000uf 25V for the left most largest cap.  I used Mundorf 10,000uf 25V for the 3 remaining.  I did some measurements and these caps are only seeing 9V DC after the rectifier diodes, so the 25V Mundorf caps are totally safe and provide much larger capacitance.  They are also 125 degree caps.  I soldered Vishay 0.1uf MKP film caps to the leads underneath the board because they wouldn’t fit in the spaces between these large caps.
- 390uf post-regulator caps => Upgraded to 470uf Nichicon FG.
- 0.1uf MKP post-regulator => Upgraded to Vishay 0.1uf MKP (BFC241641004) except for one spot where I had to use a smaller WIMA 0.1uf MKP.
- LM317 regulators => I thought about upgrading these to the Sparkos SS1117 discrete regulators, but the Sparkos are internally limited at 1A.  The LM317 allow up to 1.5A of current, and we know the DAC chips love the current.  I don’t think I’m getting any less of performance at this point.  Upgrading to Sparkos would require tweaking of the SMD resistors in front of the regulators.


Digital Circuits
--------------------
- Replaced the input coupling caps (big 0.1uf WIMA) on the S/PDIF inputs with straight wire (Ric Shultz trick).  I used Neotech 20awg solid-core OCC copper that has been stripped.
- 270uf Polymer caps => All these were upgraded to Nichicon 330uf polymer.  It’s not much, but every little bit helps!  The stock 270uf caps are actually very good, so you can skip this part if you want.  Make sure you re-solder those film caps on the bottom leads.
- 100uf Polymer caps => I left these alone because the stock Panasonic SEPC had such a great ESR (8 mohm).  I couldn’t beat that.
- 0.1uf film caps => replaced these with Vishay 0.1uf MKP
- Crystek 575 => I did several clock tests before I decided on the Accusilicon AS318-B-100 (clock comments are in following post).  I soldered a small 0.01uf film cap across the GRND/POWER pins on the bottom side of the board.  For testing purposes, Mil-Max has a nice 14-pin socket with only 4 pins loaded so that you don’t have to melt out those other pins (digikey ED90428-ND).  For final clock, I remove this socket and soldered the clock directly in.



Analog Power Supply
--------------------
- 2x4700uf Mundorf =>  Upgraded these to 2x10,000uf 40V Mundorf
- 2x1000uf post regulator => Upgraded to 2x1000uf Nichicon FG
- 220pf regulator MKP => Upgraded to 220pf Kemet PFR film-on-foil caps
- 0.1uf film caps => Upgraded to 0.1uf Vishay MKP


Analog I/V section
--------------------
- 22uf MUSE caps => Upgraded to 22uf + 47uf Nichicon FG.  The 47uf caps used the hole for 0.1uf film caps. I soldered WIMA 0.1uf MKP to the leads underneath the board.  For many years, I thought Nichicon MUSE were the best caps to use.  However, about a year ago I did some critical comparisons for the heck of it and found that FG (Fine Gold) actually sounded better.  The MUSE caps are nice and very high resolution, but they have a little bit of glare in the upper mids/highs.  The FG caps actually sound much more natural and realistic and they have excellent high frequency response!  I increase the capacitance for each discrete section.  I found that having a bit more capacitance here helps with bass/midbass punch and strength.  You definitely do not want to starve these discrete Class A circuits!
- 220pf MKP caps => Upgraded to 220pf Kemet PFR film-on-foil caps.  These are the 3 caps in the middle if the discrete circuit (on earlier models, these are the silver-mica caps)  I have found that these film-on-foil are superior to any MKP.  However, they are only available in small values (up to 2200pf picofarad).
- 2200pf film caps => Upgraded to 2200pf Kemet PFR.  These are the two inline rows of polyester caps above the circuit.
 - 61.8 ohm resistors => Upgraded to Vishay CPF3 3-watt 61.9 ohm resistors.  Like many have recommended, I could have gotten the TX2575-3 z-Foil resistors, but I didn’t want to deal with the lead time and $70 per resistor.  In past projects, I have found that a higher wattage resistor actually is more transparent and provide better response.  I learned this when comparing a .5w resistor to a 1w resistor in a op amp negative feedback circuit.  The CPF3 are only $3.25 each (mouser 71-CPF361R900BEE14).  I think they give excellent results!  They are long and have to be soldered into the extended holes.  These resistors have excellent specs at 0.1% tolerance and Temperature Coefficient of 25PPM/C (we all know this section likes to heat up).  There are resistors that have lower PPM specs, but they are generally a much higher resistance.  This was the best resistor I found between Digikey/Mouser for this application.


----------



## AuxInput

Two more mod pictures:


----------



## AuxInput

LKS MODIFICATION NOTES

Some things to keep in mind if you jump into this level of modification.

The two 4700uf Mundorf caps in the analog power supply section do not have a drain circuit and keep their charge for a very long time.  These caps see 20V DC.  Even after 24 hours of being unplugged, the caps are only down to 15V.  You need to have a way to discharge these caps before working on this board.  I use a Fluke digital multi-meter that has a built-in discharge function.  Just measure the leads on the caps for capacitance and the Fluke will automatically show a “DiSC” discharge mode on the screen.  Just sit there and let the caps discharge (may take 1-2 minutes).  It should discharge down to something like 1V.  Otherwise, you may be best just leaving the LKS unplugged for about a week or so to naturally discharge these caps.

If you want to replace the I/V section caps/resistors, you will have to remove the heat-sinked transistors from the bottom of the board.  This transistor heat sink requires a lot of room, which means you cannot solder/cut the leads normally.  The height of this transistor heatsink must match the height of the Sabre DAC chip heatsink blocks on the bottom side of the board.  If the transistor heatsink is too high, then the DAC heatsink blocks will not touch the case and you will actually force the circuit board to flex when you screw it down into the case.  When you install the new 220pf film caps, insert them into the hole and then use electric tape to tape/hold them down.  On the bottom side, use a precision wire cutter to snip the lead so that they are flush with the surface of the board.  Then just apply a small dab of solder just to hold them in place and make contact.  This should be done with the leads of the resistors as well.  When re-installing the transistor/heatsink, make sure the transistor leads are bent at a perfect 90degree angle.  This should get you where you want.

I used Arctic Silver thermal compound (very thin layer) on the bottom of the heat sinks for both transistors and DAC chip blocks.

When removing the stock Crystek 575 clock.  Most of the users here have recommended using a hot air re-work station.  You can definitely do this.  However, you really need to be patient for those solder points to heat up.  I’ve sat there for 3-7 minutes at a time and it’s painful to do.  You also have to make sure you don’t use too much air force or you will start blowing off other small SMD components!  I used a Hakko FM-2022 Parallel Tweezer with some 8mm shovel tips (Hakko T16-1006).  It literally took 2 seconds to heat the solder and I just lifted the clock right off the board!  If you have two soldering irons, you can get a couple flat shovel tips which will do the same thing.  It’s much cheaper than getting a tweezer iron with proper power supply.


----------



## AuxInput

LKS CLOCK IMPRESSIONS

Crystek 575 – I only used this with the LKS as “purely stock”.  Of course, this presented the expected result.  Extremely clean, but very forward in the upper mids (can come across as a glare).  Stock DAC also did not have the high frequency response and realism.  Lacked the bass punch/strength that I wanted.

The following impressions were all done after I completely rebuilt the DAC, so I don’t know exactly which modification did what.  I used the Rhea board for the ABLNO and 950X with a 0.01uf 0808 SMD cap on the bottom side (digikey 399-14547-1-ND)

Abracon ABLNO => I only had this one in for 24 hours because I was doing my final modifications and needed to make a decision.  That being said, I wanted to try this clock to see how it results on a fully modified LKS because it had very good PPM numbers.  In the beginning, the sound was very sharp in the upper mids and high frequencies.  After 30-60 minutes, I could start hearing a ringing/brightness in the highs.  It came across as annoying sounding (listening fatigue).  After 24 hours, the sharpness somewhat calmed down, but it still had that high frequency brightness/ringing.  None of the other clocks had this problem, even in the first 24 hours.  I don’t think this clock is the right one for LKS / ESS.

Crystek 950X =>  This clock actually has a very slightly soft attack on the sound throughout the entire frequency range.  Don’t get me wrong, all the frequencies are there and high frequencies are represented, but it’s just a little bit soft (a little bit laid back).  Kind of tilts toward a McIntosh type sound (maybe not quite as laid back).  I can definitely see where people complain about it being too laid back with the stock Gold Tune caps and components.  Nice clock, but not what I wanted.

Accusilicon AS318-B-100 =>  This clock is actually pretty damn amazing.  It has none of the problems of previous clocks and much more resolution than 950X.  Everything comes across in a very exciting presentation.  The music and sounds are just so much more realistic with significantly more impact.  An amazing result.  I think internally, this may be a VCXO clock.  It’s completely sealed like an OCXO and the documentation talks about “Pin 1 OE being pulled up to VDD by default”.  Not sure, however.  This is my recommendation if you don’t want the laid back style of the 950X.  I purchased this from Audiophonics.  Cost was $90USD when I added in the TNT express shipping.  If you do order from them, make sure you message them as ask them to use a box for shipping.  Mine came in a padded envelope and it actually bent down the pins.  I was able to salvage it, however.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Hello guys. First of all, I apologize for my supreme ignorance but, as I said earlier, this is my first dac and my first step in digital audio. I already have the LKS at home but I am still waiting for my "Audioquest" usb cable. As "b0bb" recommends, while I wait for the cable to arrive, I will use the stock cable. I have my pc with windows 7 and, at the moment, I will use Foobar. I know I have to go to "Amanero firmwares" and since I am afraid of doing something wrong due to my ignorance plus the non-existent LKS instruction manual, this is where my doubts begin:
-... which firmware exactly should I download for my W7 + Foobar ...?
-... must I have the usb cable connected to pc and lks ...?
    Please, if someone (... I am already ashamed to quote "b0bb" to ask for their help ...) has the patience and wants to indicate the exact steps to proceed from 0, I will be very grateful. Greetings to all.


----------



## oldearwax

Gilberto 62 said:


> -... which firmware exactly should I download for my W7 + Foobar ...?


   The "official" support :   http://mu-sound.com



The latest Amanero usb driver  (not firmware) 
https://www.amanero.com/drivers.htm

After driver installation, in foobar, select  DS: ASIO 1.03 driver
play some music files, make sure that your Windows 7 foobar can communicate with LKS .

For upsampling your PCM files (much better than foobar's stock DSP)
https://www.foobar2000.org/components/tag/DSP 

 install SRC Resampler 1.0.11
in foobar.


----------



## aggielaw

littlexx26 said:


> the one I bought is for uk plug 25mm 13A. you can contact him if you want to buy https://www.facebook.com/audiolinksince1997/



I've found these from several different HK-based sellers across the internet, and they are all asking about $375 (US) for one fuse.  That is more than twice what I would be willing to pay to try it.  Has anyone here found it at a lower price, or had an ebay offer accepted at a lower price?


----------



## Gilberto 62

Thank you very much for your help "oldearwax". You tell me that in Foobar, select "Asio", but if I work with "Wasapi", is it the same ...? or do you think it is better to uninstall wasapi and install Asio ...? Thank you very much again.


----------



## littlexx26

aggielaw said:


> I've found these from several different HK-based sellers across the internet, and they are all asking about $375 (US) for one fuse.  That is more than twice what I would be willing to pay to try it.  Has anyone here found it at a lower price, or had an ebay offer accepted at a lower price?


I have replaced the Zero fuse with SR Orange at the IEC of dac. The Orange is significantly better. Anyone using LKS004 should replace the stock fuse, it sounds so harsh and bright.


----------



## oldearwax

Gilberto 62 said:


> ... or do you think it is better to uninstall wasapi and install Asio ...?


WASAPI is Microsoft's version of ASIO. This page recommends ASIO:
https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/digital/pc-software/foobar-2000-for-dummies/

For playing DSD:
https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.co...-part-3-new-experimental-sacd-plugin-v-0-9-x/


----------



## Gilberto 62

Thank you, thank you, thank you very much...


----------



## aggielaw

littlexx26 said:


> I have replaced the Zero fuse with SR Orange at the IEC of dac. The Orange is significantly better. Anyone using LKS004 should replace the stock fuse, it sounds so harsh and bright.


Well, now we're getting into less outrageous territory.   The SR Orange fuses are receiving complaints all over the internet for blowing on first or second power on after installation at values even 50% higher than rated value.  What value SR Orange did you go with for the LKS?

Out of curiosity, have you compared the various SR fuses?  

Thanks!


----------



## b0bb

AuxInput said:


> Two more mod pictures:


Nice to see there is still interest in hard mods on this DAC
The USB interface looks like a new design, it would be nice if you can post pctures of the interface underneath the PSU.


----------



## AuxInput

I'll paste one more picture because you asked.  I had to re-open the unit.


----------



## MartinWT

I use SR Orange in my two regenerators, SR Red everywhere else including the LKS. Only ever blown one Red which was entirely my fault.


----------



## hpsxrb (Apr 29, 2020)

AuxInput said:


> LKS CLOCK IMPRESSIONS
> 
> Accusilicon AS318-B-100 =>  This clock is actually pretty damn amazing.  It has none of the problems of previous clocks and much more resolution than 950X.  Everything comes across in a very exciting presentation.  The music and sounds are just so much more realistic with significantly more impact.  An amazing result.  I think internally, this may be a VCXO clock.  It’s completely sealed like an OCXO and the documentation talks about “Pin 1 OE being pulled up to VDD by default”.  Not sure, however.  This is my recommendation if you don’t want the laid back style of the 950X.  I purchased this from Audiophonics.  Cost was $90USD when I added in the TNT express shipping.  If you do order from them, make sure you message them as ask them to use a box for shipping.  Mine came in a padded envelope and it actually bent down the pins.  I was able to salvage it, however.


The Accusilicon AS318-B-100 is a direct replacement of original beyond 0.01uf film cap across the GRND/POWER pins ?
Thank you


----------



## b0bb

AuxInput said:


> I'll paste one more picture because you asked.  I had to re-open the unit.


This is a new revision of the USB interface, quite different from the 2nd generation
Thanks for posting this photo


----------



## AuxInput (Apr 30, 2020)

hpsxrb said:


> The Accusilicon AS318-B-100 is a direct replacement of original beyond 0.01uf film cap across the GRND/POWER pins ?
> Thank you



Yes, you can drop it in to stock location on this LKS DAC using the DIP14 holes. You'll have to remove the original CCHD-575 clock, of course.  The documentation on the Accusilicon indicates pin 1 is OE.  On normal CCHD-575 or 950X, the pin 1 is listed as NC or "Not Connected".  That's why the pad on the board doesn't connect or lead to anything.  It's a "dead end".  The Accusilicon works just fine in this placement without any special modifications.  It also requires very little current, only 20-30mA.

I think the Accusilicon is the next best thing to an OCXO (which our newer LKS boards just cannot power without an outboard 1A power supply).  I wish I could have done an Abracon AOCJY1 OCXO clock, but I did not want to mess with installing yet another power supply board and having to do a custom mount for the clock power pins.

The LKS has some SMD caps right next to the post-regulator 100uf for this clock power supply. They are probably 0.1uf.  I just added a 0.01uf directly across the power pins underneath to make the voltage as smooth as possible.


----------



## hpsxrb (Apr 30, 2020)

AuxInput said:


> LKS MODIFICATIONS
> 
> I have done a significantly more amount of work than most people would do.  However, it all adds up in the end.  With all the upgrades, this DAC no longer resembles stock.  The resolution and attack are amazing.  High frequency detail is significantly improved and much more realistic.  Bass is significantly stronger (think “punch you in the chest” type of bass).  This DAC is now absolutely beautiful to listen to.
> 
> ...


I am afraid to abuse your patience but could you please indicate the quantities of each component used in this mods ?
Thank you


----------



## Gilberto 62

I didn't want to write this here, but I've already reached a point of total collapse. After installing and uninstalling drivers, uninstalling and reinstalling foobar, tired of so many problems, I have reached my limit of patience.
      After two days of multiple trials, tutorials, remove, put, I can no longer. The dsd files are played in jerks, with cuts, sometimes it appears as a fastasma noise, like the noise of the waves of the sea breaking on the beach, ".... ffffffuuuuuuuu ....", I can't even reproduce the simple flacs, I do not understand anything of what is happening here. Never in my life would I have imagined that this was so ****ing difficult.
     What I can do...?


----------



## Gilberto 62

I honestly can't understand why you have so many problems with this. I have downloaded the Amanero drivers, I have put the necessary plugins so that foobar plays sacd, dsd, etc ... I have configured the sound output of my pc towards the Audioquest usb, I have selected in foobar the output dsd: asio: combo- 384 asio 1.0.3., I don't know what else to do. And nothing works, or it works wrong ...


----------



## hpsxrb (May 1, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> I honestly can't understand why you have so many problems with this. I have downloaded the Amanero drivers, I have put the necessary plugins so that foobar plays sacd, dsd, etc ... I have configured the sound output of my pc towards the Audioquest usb, I have selected in foobar the output dsd: asio: combo- 384 asio 1.0.3., I don't know what else to do. And nothing works, or it works wrong ...


I have no experience with Foobar, nor with Amanero, but you should start here:
http://www.mu-sound.com/about.asp?id=3
and here:
https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/digital/pc-software/foobar-2000-for-dummies/


----------



## Gilberto 62

Yes, I've been there a hundred times already ...


----------



## hpsxrb (May 1, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Yes, I've been there a hundred times already ...


Try Jriver or it's the Amanero board that's broken.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Amanero board broken ...? Dac new and already broken ...? How can I check that it is broken ...? I hope it is not that. Another thing, do you think JRiver would be easier to configure with LKS ...? How tired am I of all this ...


----------



## hpsxrb (May 1, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Hello guys. First of all, I apologize for my supreme ignorance but, as I said earlier, this is my first dac and my first step in digital audio. I already have the LKS at home but I am still waiting for my "Audioquest" usb cable. As "b0bb" recommends, while I wait for the cable to arrive, I will use the stock cable. I have my pc with windows 7 and, at the moment, I will use Foobar. I know I have to go to "Amanero firmwares" and since I am afraid of doing something wrong due to my ignorance plus the non-existent LKS instruction manual, this is where my doubts begin:
> -... which firmware exactly should I download for my W7 + Foobar ...?
> -... must I have the usb cable connected to pc and lks ...?
> Please, if someone (... I am already ashamed to quote "b0bb" to ask for their help ...) has the patience and wants to indicate the exact steps to proceed from 0, I will be very grateful. Greetings to all.


You can only install the firmware with a USB cable connected to the PC.


Gilberto 62 said:


> Amanero board broken ...? Dac new and already broken ...? How can I check that it is broken ...? I hope it is not that. Another thing, do you think JRiver would be easier to configure with LKS ...? How tired am I of all this ...


If I remember correctly, Jriver is easier to configure than Foobar. Try free trial Jriver.
Setup: http://www.mu-sound.com/files/Jriver(L.K.S Audio).pdf


----------



## Gilberto 62

Well, I am going to start again, because, until now, in these continuous install and uninstall, I did it with the usb cable disconnected.
    I do not want to give up on this or abandon, I know that there is something that I do not do well, some step that I forget or do poorly. Also, I have to use the translator for all this, that is, one more obstacle ... Well I am going to uninstall all this and I do it again as you tell me, with the usb cable connected, but ... the lks on or off ...? Tell me something please...


----------



## hpsxrb (May 1, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Well, I am going to start again, because, until now, in these continuous install and uninstall, I did it with the usb cable disconnected.
> I do not want to give up on this or abandon, I know that there is something that I do not do well, some step that I forget or do poorly. Also, I have to use the translator for all this, that is, one more obstacle ... Well I am going to uninstall all this and I do it again as you tell me, with the usb cable connected, but ... the lks on or off ...? Tell me something please...


With usb cable and LKS on.
To update the firmware in Amanero:
https://www.amanero.com/howto.htm


----------



## Gilberto 62

Thank you very much really. Now, I have uninstalled everything, drivers, foobar, and installed the trial version of JRiver, which I hope will be easier for clumsy people like me. Now, I'm going to do the steps that you tell me ... Then I write to you ...


----------



## Gilberto 62

But, one thing, that link that you put me there, the update tool amanero, if I have uninstalled everything, drivers, I have to reinstall from the lks support page or I start there, at that link ... ? I tell you this because I have uninstalled everything and if that is a tool to update, on my pc there is nothing to update ... ...?


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> But, one thing, that link that you put me there, the update tool amanero, if I have uninstalled everything, drivers, I have to reinstall from the lks support page or I start there, at that link ... ? I tell you this because I have uninstalled everything and if that is a tool to update, on my pc there is nothing to update ... ...?


The firmware is stored in the hardware, the drivers are stored in the software. When you uninstall software (drivers, etc.) it does not change the firmware.


----------



## Gilberto 62

"hpsxrb", please forgive me being so annoying but, with your help, I want to do this step by step, without mistake. Please understand that this is my first dac, I have never used or configured a dac, also please think that I have to use the translator and that is why I am so slow. Sorry.
    Well, then, I start there, in that last link you gave me, the Amanero update tool ...?
     My God, what a shame, everyone should be at home, reading this and dying of laughter ...


----------



## hpsxrb (May 1, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> "hpsxrb", please forgive me being so annoying but, with your help, I want to do this step by step, without mistake. Please understand that this is my first dac, I have never used or configured a dac, also please think that I have to use the translator and that is why I am so slow. Sorry.
> Well, then, I start there, in that last link you gave me, the Amanero update tool ...?
> My God, what a shame, everyone should be at home, reading this and dying of laughter ...


Do not worry about the firmware (update tool) because it is already installed from the source.
Install only the Windows Amanero driver (for which you don't need the update tool) from here:
https://www.amanero.com/drivers.htm (they have Windows 7 drivers)
Install Jriver and do the setup according to the link I already gave:
http://www.mu-sound.com/files/Jriver(L.K.S Audio).pdf


----------



## Gilberto 62

Well, I downloaded the drivers again from Amanero, my pc does detect the lks, I set the audio output of JRiver in asio combo 384 1.0.3., But, just like with foobar, everything goes by breaks, cuts, every two or three seconds is cut, a disaster. I put here an image of the lks screen playing a flac. I have pressed all the buttons on the remote control over and over again, but in any configuration, it sounds like cuts, stops, etc ...


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Well, I downloaded the drivers again from Amanero, my pc does detect the lks, I set the audio output of JRiver in asio combo 384 1.0.3., But, just like with foobar, everything goes by breaks, cuts, every two or three seconds is cut, a disaster. I put here an image of the lks screen playing a flac. I have pressed all the buttons on the remote control over and over again, but in any configuration, it sounds like cuts, stops, etc ...


Try DPLL higher


----------



## Gilberto 62

Look, I've tried this one and it still works badly, in jumps, stops ...


----------



## hpsxrb (May 1, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Look, I've tried this one and it still works badly, in jumps, stops ...


You configure Jriver for DoP ?


----------



## Gilberto 62

Ups...!  Wait....


----------



## Gilberto 62

Sorry, but I can't find the section: "..DoT ..." Where is it...?


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Sorry, but I can't find the section: "..DoT ..." Where is it...?


I wanted to say DoP


----------



## Gilberto 62

Wait....


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## hpsxrb (May 1, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Wait....


In Jriver you have to select "Options" and "Audio Devices" and select the "Amanero Asio Driver" (I don't know the correct name)


----------



## Gilberto 62

Yes, yes, I already put it that way from the beginning ...


----------



## Gilberto 62

But that "DoP" thing, I still can't find it ...


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Yes, yes, I already put it that way from the beginning ...


But you select Asio driver inside Jriver ?


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## Gilberto 62

Yes, see...


----------



## hpsxrb (May 1, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> But that "DoP" thing, I still can't find it ...


In Jriver DoP is in "Output Format", "Output Encoding", "DSD in DoP" but I don't think the problem comes from there


----------



## Gilberto 62

See...


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Yes, see...


Is your windows 7 x32 or x64? The drivers are different for one and the other.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Maybe I should change something there ...My os is Windows7 x64...


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Maybe I should change something there ...My os is Windows7 x64...


Very important, the drivers you installed were signed (by the manufacturer) ? If they were not signed by the manufacturer, the installation of the drivers must be done in another way.
I don't see how to help.  Perhaps the Amanero board is broken (although the device is new) !


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## Gilberto 62

https://amanero.com/drivers.htm  .....from here


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## Gilberto 62

the second file, begining from up...


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## Gilberto 62

download  Combo384 Drivers for Windows XP Win7 Win8 32/64bit


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## hpsxrb (May 1, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> https://amanero.com/drivers.htm  .....from here


I don't know if they are signed just because they are from the manufacturer, probably yes, but if they are not signed to install on windows, it is by a different method. In that case we have to disable the installation of signed drivers.
Although they are visible on the Jriver the installation must have gone smoothly.


----------



## Gilberto 62

So, do you want me to uninstall and reinstall the drivers ...? Maybe from the LKS page ...?


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## hpsxrb (May 1, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> So, do you want me to uninstall and reinstall the drivers ...? Maybe from the LKS page ...?


I don't think that will change anything. LKS drivers must be older.
But make more one attempt to uninstall the Amanero drivers and reinstall, but check if they are signed (I never used Amanero).
Probably a malfunction it is the Amanero board which costs little (79€).


----------



## Gilberto 62

... or I could take the LKS and throw it out the window ... I live on a fifth floor ...!


----------



## Gilberto 62

I bought it at Audio Clear Components in Germany, through eBay. Now I will have to repackage it and send it back to Germany. Hahaha...! I laugh not to cry ... What a mess. Thank you very much for your patience and time. A greeting.


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> I bought it at Audio Clear Components in Germany, through eBay. Now I will have to repackage it and send it back to Germany. Hahaha...! I laugh not to cry ... What a mess. Thank you very much for your patience and time. A greeting.


You do not have to thank, it was a pleasure to help but unfortunately we were not successful.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Well, I think it's a good idea to explain my recent odyssey with the LKS a little. A few days ago this dac came to my house, which I had been following the reviews for a long time and all the opinions of users (.... where they really tell the truth ...) and I thought, this dac deserves A good usb cable, so I bought the Audioquest Diamond 5 meters for 1500 euros. Well, two days ago I started to connect everything and start its configuration and ... surprise ...! everything malfunctioned, cuts, stops, phantom noises, crunches, sssshhhhhhhhhh, fffffffuuuuuuuuhhhh, etc, etc. After trying a million configurations with Foobar and JRiver and asking for help here in the forum, (.... thanks "b0bb", thanks "Whitigir", thanks "hpsxrb", thanks to all of you in general ...) and a desperate trial-and-error race, trial and error, already embarrassed to think how it could be that everyone succeeds and I don't, being my first contact with the dac world, already believing myself totally incapable, in the end, fed up with everything and as the patient and generous "hpsxrb" insinuated to me, I thought that the problem was in the dac or its Amanero board. Having decided to return the dac to Germany for inspection and fed up and tired of everything, it occurred to me to try the stock cable, the one that comes in the box with the dac. And miracle ...! Yes, there was the damn problem, in the garbage of Audioquest Diamond cable of 1500 euros.
   "hpsxrb", he tells me that it could be due to the length of the cable, 5 meters, but that is the distance between my htpc and the dac, well, a little less. But gentlemen, how is it possible that a 1500 euro cable does not work ...? 5 meters is a lot ...? so why do they sell them ...?
    It was necessary to write this for first, to thank for your support and second, for that of ... "the esoteric world of cables ..."


----------



## littlexx26 (May 3, 2020)

aggielaw said:


> Well, now we're getting into less outrageous territory.   The SR Orange fuses are receiving complaints all over the internet for blowing on first or second power on after installation at values even 50% higher than rated value.  What value SR Orange did you go with for the LKS?
> 
> Out of curiosity, have you compared the various SR fuses?
> 
> Thanks!


I follow the stock value 3.15A. I have 14 SR Orange fuses with different specs including UK plug 13A for mains and none of them has a single problem. I did not compare to older SR fuses because I just started playing fuses last year and sure I wouldn't buy Blue or Black or Red because they are too old. But I can tell in Hong Kong here people who have older SR fuses said Zero is much superior than them.


----------



## littlexx26

AuxInput said:


> I'll paste one more picture because you asked.  I had to re-open the unit.


All are high quality caps do they sell the board individually?


----------



## hpsxrb

AuxInput said:


> LKS MODIFICATIONS
> 
> I have done a significantly more amount of work than most people would do.  However, it all adds up in the end.  With all the upgrades, this DAC no longer resembles stock.  The resolution and attack are amazing.  High frequency detail is significantly improved and much more realistic.  Bass is significantly stronger (think “punch you in the chest” type of bass).  This DAC is now absolutely beautiful to listen to.
> 
> ...


Can you please tell me the part number of the 220pf Kemet PFR film-on-foil caps in "Mouser". Thank you.


----------



## AuxInput

hpsxrb said:


> Can you please tell me the part number of the 220pf Kemet PFR film-on-foil caps in "Mouser". Thank you.



Kemet PFR 220pf
Mouser: 80-PFR5221J63J11L4 
Digikey: 399-7684-ND

Kemet PFR 2200pf
Mouser: 80-PFR5222J63J11L4
Digikey: 399-7680-ND


Standby on some of my part recommendations.  I am removing my FG capacitors and switching back to Nichicon MUSE KZ.  The FG were very good, but do not have quite the resolution of the KZ.


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## hpsxrb (May 7, 2020)

AuxInput:
"Standby on some of my part recommendations. I am removing my FG capacitors and switching back to Nichicon MUSE KZ. The FG were very good, but do not have quite the resolution of the KZ."

This change concerns:
1 - Digital Power Supply post-regulator cap (470uf Nichicon FG) ?
2 - Analog I / V section (22uF + 47uF Nichicon FG)?

What is the voltage of the CAP in Analog I / V, section because of the size (I have not yet opened the DAC) ?
Thank you


----------



## Gilberto 62

Hello everyone. Well, I'm enjoying this, my first dac, because until now, I was using the dac from my pc's sound card and, well, this is something else. I had problems with the Audioquest Diamond cabel that I bought and, while my store brings me another, I am using the stock cable.
     I keep reading, admired for your knowledge and experience in changing some parts of the LKS to get better SQ results with your hardware updates. But, those of us who would also like to do all of this but we don't have the knowledge, tools, or time, is there somewhere or someone you know who can do all of that ...? If someone wants to give me their point of view, it will be appreciated.


----------



## AuxInput

hpsxrb said:


> AuxInput:
> "Standby on some of my part recommendations. I am removing my FG capacitors and switching back to Nichicon MUSE KZ. The FG were very good, but do not have quite the resolution of the KZ."
> 
> This change concerns:
> ...



The voltage of the stock caps in the Analog I/V section were 50V.  I just continued to use 50V.  I did some brief tests and I think the analog power supply is producing +/-15V DC, so 50V caps are a lot higher than needed.  That being said, the KZ caps are only available in 25V and 50V, and it's a know fact that the 50V version sounds better.  The stock 22uf caps were just final power supply filters to provide faster voltage/current response for the I/V circuit.  The FG caps are nice, but are just too soft in the high frequencies (I recently discovered this characteristic).  So, Nichicon FG are not recommended here unless you want a warmer/duller sound.  I'm going back to MUSE KZ caps, but using 100uf.  Please standby for a few days on final components.

As far as the digital power supply post regulator caps, it's totally fine to bump them up a little bit.  The purpose of these caps is to provide faster current "on tap" when the circuits demand them before the regulator can start flowing current through to restore the voltage.  Once again, FG is not fast enough for this.


----------



## b0bb (May 8, 2020)

AuxInput said:


> The voltage of the stock caps in the Analog I/V section were 50V.  I just continued to use 50V.  I did some brief tests and I think the analog power supply is producing +/-15V DC, so 50V caps are a lot higher than needed.  That being said, the KZ caps are only available in 25V and 50V, and it's a know fact that the 50V version sounds better.  The stock 22uf caps were just final power supply filters to provide faster voltage/current response for the I/V circuit.  The FG caps are nice, but are just too soft in the high frequencies (I recently discovered this characteristic).  So, Nichicon FG are not recommended here unless you want a warmer/duller sound.  I'm going back to MUSE KZ caps, but using 100uf.  Please standby for a few days on final components.
> 
> As far as the digital power supply post regulator caps, it's totally fine to bump them up a little bit.  The purpose of these caps is to provide faster current "on tap" when the circuits demand them before the regulator can start flowing current through to restore the voltage.  Once again, FG is not fast enough for this.


The bypass caps you changed have a critical role in the DAC.
At 384kHz or DSD512 sampling, there will be a lot of transient energy at 24.5MHz, 49MHz and 12.3MHz around the I/V power feed
The responsibility to dampen this and maintain near DC conditions falls onto these caps.

Capacitors however have a limited frequency range in which they act as capacitors.

Here are plots some real numbers for a 10uF cap
The bigger the value the lower the transition frequency, a 100uF cap will transition around 100kHz




Smaller value caps have a higher transition frequency
If a big cap is paired with a smaller cap it covers a much wider range.

This is the reason why LKS paired a big electrolytic cap  with a smaller film cap.




The output stage runs in Class-A, the load current is more or less constant, adding an extra electrolytic cap is not going to improve filtering.
The electrolytics are effectively non functional above 1MHz

It will upset the existing balance between the electrolytic and film cap .
The film cap is the one doing most of the work to get rid of the high frequency noise

One of the symptoms of this condition is a dull sounding DAC as you have noted.
If you want  a better quality small bypass cap, replace the metallized polyester with a polypropylene cap.
Better yet add a small (100pf - 1nF)  X7R or better monolithic ceramic cap in parallel to the film cap.

The best high frequency dielectric material is glass, I have used Corning CGW caps in the past, they are the go to caps if you want to improve bass slam.

The graph came from a Murata application note.
Link below has more info
https://article.murata.com/en-us/article/impedance-esr-frequency-characteristics-in-capacitors


----------



## AuxInput

b0bb said:


> The bypass caps you changed have a critical role in the DAC.
> At 384kHz or DSD512 sampling, there will be a lot of transient energy at 24.5MHz, 49MHz and 12.3MHz around the I/V power feed
> The responsibility to dampen this and maintain near DC conditions falls onto these caps.
> 
> ...



First, I am not a senior EE guy.  However, I absolutely know the requirement of a small film cap along with the electrolytic in this scenario.  I have heard and experienced the effect of an electrolytic's inability to filter high frequency response.  I placed in two FG caps here -- the 47uf and 22uf are operating in parallel to provide a larger reservoir of immediate current for these I/V circuits.  However, it seems that you have completely missed one of my statements that I have soldered a 0.1uf WIMA MKP (metallized polypropylene) to the leads of these capacitors UNDERNEATH the board.  So the film cap is still there, it's just not visible.

All of my R&D and testing has been done through listening tests and not necessarily choosing components from "engineering math".  I did not necessarily mean that the high frequencies were gone and the sound was completely dull.  The high frequencies are there with these FG caps and the sound is very clean.  The sound is just warm and not as "snappy" and exciting as with KZ caps, which could make the sound just a very tiny bit flat.  This is something I just recently figured out because I do have several other devices loaded with FG caps and they all carry the same sonic signature.

I don't know if you realize, but the original version of the LKS had 47uf FG caps.  Now it has 22uf MUSE KZ caps.  These 22uf caps are the largest KZ caps that can be placed in this position and still have space to put in that polyester film cap FROM THE TOP.  Regarding your comment on bass slam, these 22+47 FG caps in parallel provide enormous bass slam.

Now let's move on to sizing.  You may think that a small 22uf cap may be sufficient here from engineering math and possibly from scope readings.  However, my listening experiences have told me that undersizing this cap in a circuit that is high current Class A can actually starve the circuit a little bit.  The result is a lack of full bass and sound that is somewhat lean and can be forward in the upper mids or even bright/thin.  Increasing the size of local electrolytic caps for filtering increase the amount of "immediate current on top".  This provide much fuller stronger bass and reduces the "starving" effect which smooths out mids and highs.  This is especially critical on high current Class A circuits.  It doesn't matter if you have 20,000uf in the main power supply, if you have small filter caps next the I/V circuit, you are still going to starve it.  Basic monolithic op amps do not suffer as badly from this effect, but good local filtering/reservoir will always help.


----------



## oldearwax

Gilberto 62 said:


> ...  is there somewhere or someone you know who can do all of that ...? ...


Ric Schultz 
http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/LKS_Mods.html
offers mod service.
The modifications mentioned in this forum is  a lot more extensive/intensive than Ric's, IMHO.


----------



## b0bb (May 8, 2020)

AuxInput said:


> First, I am not a senior EE guy.  However, I absolutely know the requirement of a small film cap along with the electrolytic in this scenario.  I have heard and experienced the effect of an electrolytic's inability to filter high frequency response.  I placed in two FG caps here -- the 47uf and 22uf are operating in parallel to provide a larger reservoir of immediate current for these I/V circuits.  However, it seems that you have completely missed one of my statements that I have soldered a 0.1uf WIMA MKP (metallized polypropylene) to the leads of these capacitors UNDERNEATH the board.  So the film cap is still there, it's just not visible.


That is the reason I called the thing out, very easy to miss the description given the photo.
I had to read your description more than once.

This is for the benefit of those trying to replicate the work you did.







> I don't know if you realize, but the original version of the LKS had 47uf FG caps.  Now it has 22uf MUSE KZ caps.


I have the original with the 47uF FGs, the 22uF KZ are a step down, KZs do not do well in mixed analog and digital bypass roles.

LKS actually bumped down the output stage bias current on the later 004 models to get away with using smaller bypass components and to address complaints of overheating.


----------



## b0bb (May 8, 2020)

oldearwax said:


> Ric Schultz
> http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/LKS_Mods.html
> offers mod service.
> The modifications mentioned in this forum is  a lot more extensive/intensive than Ric's, IMHO.


There is more of this in the forum for the 004's predecessor for those looking for mod ideas that can be applied to the 004.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-3

A few pictures of the work over the years in one place.

Low noise schottky diodes for the power supplies, Schottky diodes do not produce the turn off spike when it stops conducting this stops the spray of RF noise.
The kinks in the scope trace show the ugly turn off behavior of a conventional diode, this is the one in my 004. (It is on my TODO list to fix...)
The fuzz at the transtion is the RF ringing.




Schottky diodes however leak a lot of reverse current about 10x worse than the conventional diodes, the ones show below are very low leakage about the same as a conventional diode





Vishay TX2575 metal foil resistors for the current to voltage (I/V) converter.
This is the heart of the digital to analog conversion

The the 004 requires the resistors to be doubled up and a value changed to the one the 004 is using.
WIMA film foil polypropylene to bypass the caps on the other side of the boad
The cream coloured component at the near top of the WIMA is a C0G high frequency bypass ceramic cap





TI TPS 7A47 RF low dropout regulator to replace the LM317 that LKS is using for the input interface circuitry.
This regulator is designed for digital circuits
The wiring mess is no longer necessary in the current versions of the regulator, this was from a few years ago.
This is a more complicated mod that requires circuit change.
The is requires the output cap soldered in, this is the circle footprint in front of the regulator.





The purple caps are the original Sanyo OSCONs organic polymer cap.
Nichicon FPcap comes close. Modern day OSCONs are worse than the FPCap.
They are like getting hard to find, grab them on Ebay if they show up.




Polystyrene film foil caps are an alternative to polypropylene, it was a good complement to the ES9018.
These we matched to better than 1%
The caps are the ones in the transparent housing, the horizontal cap with the transparent yellow casing on bottom left is also polystyrene except that the electrode material is copper foil instead of aluminum foil.

The bright yellow blob is the common mode reference divider bypass cap.
ESS uses a common mode reference divider for all its DAC chips including the 004.

This is a 100uF ultra low leakage solid tantalum. This is on my TODO list for the 004.

The black rectangular box on the extreme left with the CGW TY05 marking is the Corning glass bypass capacitor


----------



## b0bb (May 9, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> But, those of us who would also like to do all of this but we don't have the knowledge, tools, or time, is there somewhere or someone you know who can do all of that ...? If someone wants to give me their point of view, it will be appreciated.



I have done hardware mods on the 004 and the previous 003, the biggest change is replacing the master clock.
All of the other mods produce an incremental benefit, the improvements from these mods combined equals the change of the master clock.
I posted a list of these mods a few posts up.

Master clock is the only mod I carried over from the 003 to the 004.

The work itself takes about 15mins to complete by someone with the right equipment.
The quickest is using hot tweezers, on less well equipped shops a hot air wand, it takes longer, will cost you more if they charge by time.

Look at how well their workshop is equipped when making your decision, it is a 1500Euro piece of equipment.

The leading makers of electronics rework equipment for those in the EU is JBC (Spain), Weller(UK), OK Int/Metcal (US), Pace (US) and Hakko (Japan).

The actual tweezer unit I use to remove the XO on my 004 is below. It is a Metcal PTZ tweezer, it is in the background of the picture.
https://www.okinternational.com/han...-MX-5241/Tweezers_Soldering_and_Rework_System


----------



## b0bb (May 9, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> I keep reading, admired for your knowledge and experience in changing some parts of the LKS to get better SQ results with your hardware updates. But, those of us who would also like to do all of this but we don't have the knowledge, tools, or time, is there somewhere or someone you know who can do all of that ...? If someone wants to give me their point of view, it will be appreciated.


Hardware mods are fun to watch other people do but it is extremely time consuming and the return on the investment is quite small.
If you are thinking of paying someone to do the work take a look at my other post on the hardware mod.

This is one of the reasons I am not in a hurry to repeat the work I did on the LKS003 for the LKS004.

The software route makes the most sense to me given your situation.
The audio performance improvements offered by the software method effectively made me lose interest in making hardware mods to the LKS004 DAC.

Now that you have set up the ASIO driver for the Amanero card, try HQPlayer on your Windows PC, it behaves very similar to Foobar.
Demo mode runs for 30 mins, it costs about 300 Euros with taxes.
http://www.signalyst.eu/consumer.html

If you have a Nvidia Video Card on your PC,  HQPlayer can use it to offload some of the calculation work if it is reasonably capable like a GTX1060 and above.

If you have Linux skills, Signalyst offers a custom linux kernel tuned for audio use.


----------



## b0bb (May 9, 2020)

The trace below shows the ethernet network traffic going into HQPlayer's network audio adapter.
The main processing engine is split off onto a separate computer and data delivered to a small low noise computer like a raspberry pi or custom build audio endpoints like Sotm SMS-200 or the Sonore microRendu via ethernet, this is then connected to the DAC via I2S or USB.

The player is operating at the equivalent of 384kHz sampling, the data rate is 51Mbit/s




This is the rate of the data coming in to the USB or I2S interfaces of the DAC.
@Gilberto 62 , this partially explains why you had problems with that long USB cable.

The maximum length of a USB 2.0 cable is 5m, this would have worked to the USB spec if the cable had be tested and certified by the USB implementers forum.
It is not legal to display the official USB logo on the packaging without certification as it is a trademark owned by the USBif

Uncertified cables would have worked fine for low traffic volume like a webcam or usb mouse but as soon as the data rate increases, it might fail, and it did in your case.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Good morning to everybody. "b0bb", I thank you for your information regarding that start of interest on my part about updating the lks hardware, but as you say, for the moment, since I am a novice, we will leave it as it is and I'll settle for reading to you, the experts, and be amazed at your knowledge.
     Regarding what you say about the problems I have had with the Audioquest Diamond 5 meter usb cable ... do you mean that the problem is in its length of 5 meters ...? A cable that has cost me 1,500 euros, the same as our beloved LKS ...! But then, if the problem lies in the great length of the cable, why do they sell them ...? Well, what my hifi store is going to do is return that cable to Audioquest and bring me another. Do you think I will have the same problems again ...?
P.S. I write down the information provided by our partner "oldearwax", regarding the technician Rik Schultz. Thank you.


----------



## b0bb (May 9, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Good morning to everybody. "b0bb", I thank you for your information regarding that start of interest on my part about updating the lks hardware, but as you say, for the moment, since I am a novice, we will leave it as it is and I'll settle for reading to you, the experts, and be amazed at your knowledge.
> Regarding what you say about the problems I have had with the Audioquest Diamond 5 meter usb cable ... do you mean that the problem is in its length of 5 meters ...? A cable that has cost me 1,500 euros, the same as our beloved LKS ...! But then, if the problem lies in the great length of the cable, why do they sell them ...? Well, what my hifi store is going to do is return that cable to Audioquest and bring me another. Do you think I will have the same problems again ...?
> P.S. I write down the information provided by our partner "oldearwax", regarding the technician Rik Schultz. Thank you.


The 5m length is right at the limit, if you still want to use the Audioquest, ask your dealer if they are willing to guarantee this, if not, I think there are better uses for 1500Euros
I believe Rik is in the US, you have to consider the cost of shipping the unit to and from the US and deal customs clearance problems each way.

If you can consider an alternative use for the 1500 Euros,

1)Sotm SMS-200 NAA is 540 Euros incl VAT
https://kopfhoererboutique.com/products/sotm-sms-200

2) HQplayer Desktop is 199 Euros before VAT
https://order.shareit.com/product?vendorid=200082742&productid=300930533&backlink=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.signalyst.com%2Fwebshop.html&currency=EUR&currencies=ALL

3)Ethernet switch Cisco SG100D-08-EU 90 Euros before VAT
https://www.amazon.de/Cisco-SG100D-08-EU-8-Port-Unmanaged-Switch/dp/B007VTZ0TE

4) Cat6 Ethernet cable to your length requirements 20-50 Euros
https://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&url=search-alias=computers&field-keywords=cat6+ethernet

5)Use your existing PC

Connect your PC to the ethernet switch, SMS-200 to ethernet switch and use the short stock USB cable that  LKS provided. Keep the SMS-200 close to the LKS.
Use a long ethernet cable from SMS-200 to the switch, Cat6 ethernet is good to 100m@1000Mbit/s
SMS-200 has a special Audio only very low noise USB port

Cisco switches have good built in XOs for their clocks.

This is a base system to get you started.
SMS-200 will handle 384KHz and DSD256, if you want more resolutions like DSD512/DSD1024 then you will have to get the more expensive SMS-1000 about 4k Euros


----------



## Gilberto 62

Thanks b0bb for all that necessary for a hardware update of the lks, but my only option would be to send it to someone (... Rick for example ...) in case he decided to do it since I will change as much as possible a light bulb in my house.
Regarding the blessed 5 meter cable. That is the distance from my pc to my audio system and I need those 5 meters or, buy a laptop to dedicate it exclusively to the audo system and place it there, so I would no longer need such a long cable. The problem is that I hate laptops and I am used to working with my pc and using it for everything, like htpc, audio, video, etc. I do not know what to do, because I am very, very surprised that the Audioquest Diamond 5m was damaged or defective, because we are talking about a recognized and guaranteed brand, it is not a little cable bought in a small Chinese store (... with no intention of offending nobody ..) but, at least here in Spain, the Chinese shops only sell garbage.


----------



## b0bb (May 9, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Thanks b0bb for all that necessary for a hardware update of the lks, but my only option would be to send it to someone (... Rick for example ...) in case he decided to do it since I will change as much as possible a light bulb in my house.
> Regarding the blessed 5 meter cable. That is the distance from my pc to my audio system and I need those 5 meters or, buy a laptop to dedicate it exclusively to the audo system and place it there, so I would no longer need such a long cable. The problem is that I hate laptops and I am used to working with my pc and using it for everything, like htpc, audio, video, etc. I do not know what to do, because I am very, very surprised that the Audioquest Diamond 5m was damaged or defective, because we are talking about a recognized and guaranteed brand, it is not a little cable bought in a small Chinese store (... with no intention of offending nobody ..) but, at least here in Spain, the Chinese shops only sell garbage.


You do not need to change how you use your PC on your deskop.
-Today you use Foobar to play your music
-Use HQplayer instead of Foobar in the new setup to play your music.
You do not need the extra laptop.
SMS200 box will work with HQPlayer as a sound interface just like the Amanero.
SMS200 also cleans up noisy signal from PC. LKS004 performance will suffer greatly if this step is not done.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Hello "b0bb". I sincerely thank you for your opinion and recommendations, but, as you already know, I am a newcomer to this digital world and I think it is better that, at the moment, I go little by little, step by step, because otherwise I choke, I collapse. I have managed (... thanks to the invaluable help of "hpsxrb" ...) to correctly configure Foobar and, for now, I am upsampling to dsd 512 and it shows it on the lks screen and, well, for now I start here . When the new 5-meter Diamond cable arrives, I hope everything goes well, if not, then I will completely discard that long length and open another alternative, perhaps the one you put me there. Thanks "b0bb", your opinion is very valuable to me and your knowledge is simply admirable. When I read to you, I think: "... this boy must work as a thermonuclear engineer at NASA ..."


----------



## b0bb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Hello "b0bb". I sincerely thank you for your opinion and recommendations, but, as you already know, I am a newcomer to this digital world and I think it is better that, at the moment, I go little by little, step by step, because otherwise I choke, I collapse. I have managed (... thanks to the invaluable help of "hpsxrb" ...) to correctly configure Foobar and, for now, I am upsampling to dsd 512 and it shows it on the lks screen and, well, for now I start here . When the new 5-meter Diamond cable arrives, I hope everything goes well, if not, then I will completely discard that long length and open another alternative, perhaps the one you put me there. Thanks "b0bb", your opinion is very valuable to me and your knowledge is simply admirable. When I read to you, I think: "... this boy must work as a thermonuclear engineer at NASA ..."


You will be fine as long as you keep to short USB cables like the one LKS provides .
With DSD512 you will be pushing the full 50Mbits/s through the link.

I see that you get frustrated easily when things do not work the way you want, please be kind to your Audioquest dealer if you have to return the cable for the second time.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Thank you very much, "b0bb"....


----------



## hpsxrb (May 9, 2020)

Thank you b0bb for all the explanations !
The glare in the LKS and the highlight in the middle range, at the level of capacitors in addition to the 8 capacitors of Analog I / V section (to be replaced by Panasonic FM of the same value, with bypass of a Wima 0.15uF and a 100pf Corning Glass), have more points of origin ?


----------



## b0bb

hpsxrb said:


> Thank you b0bb for all the explanations !
> The glare in the LKS and the highlight in the middle range, at the level of capacitors in addition to the 8 capacitors of Analog I / V section (to be replaced by Panasonic FM of the same value, with bypass of a Wima 0.15uF and a 100pf Corning Glass), have more points of origin ?


These are military spec parts, Ebay is the best place.

AVX bought the CGW factory.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AVX-GLASS-...966107?hash=item2c95ee091b:g:9usAAOSw0ThdwTS6

NOS CGW is very expensive, below is an example of price gouging
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CY06C161J-...387578?hash=item2ed58e97ba:g:6sEAAOSwxH1T75m0


----------



## b0bb

The 003 used a 100uF Panasonic FM  +  150nF Wima Film Polypropylene + 100 pf CGW glass cap
The FM is good to 1MHz, Wima to 10MHz and CGW to 100MHz
I will be replicating this on the 004.

This gives the I/V the full 100MHz operating range of powersupply bypass.

DSD512 data rate is 50Mbit/s (measured in a previous post)
DSD1024 data rate is 100Mbit/s

So 100MHz range is quite reasonable and is what needs to be done to prepare the 004 for the maximum sample rate of DSD1024
At DSD1024 nearly all the internal signal processing in the ES9038 will be pushed aside.

DSD1024 stream is generated by HQPlayer.
At present a DSD512 stream consumes about 55% of my computer's (Intel i9-9900KS) capability, there is considerable room to spare.
DSD256 loads the computer to 35%

Here are the parts used on the 003
Black cap with the Red192D marking is the 100uF Panasonic FM
Black rectagular box next to it is the Corning CGW
Wima is on the underside of the DAC





Wima 0.15uF (150nF) on underside of DAC


----------



## AuxInput

b0bb said:


> If you can consider an alternative use for the 1500 Euros,
> 
> 1)Sotm SMS-200 NAA is 540 Euros incl VAT
> https://kopfhoererboutique.com/products/sotm-sms-200
> ...



The Sotm SMS-200 that b0bb is proposing is what is called a "DLNA Renderer".  It is essentially a digital transport/player that is controlled by a PC with DLNA media player software over an ethernet network.  You need some sort of DLNA media software, such as the suggested HQPlayer.  I have never used HQPlayer, but it does have a lot of upsampling and DSP options that are not available in other solutions.  If you just want to do something basic without this advanced DSP, you can try something like Jriver, which is a lot cheaper (that DSP in HQPlayer does cost money).  JRiver still has comprehensive DSP, such as parametric EQ and even can do room correction plugins if you really want that.

The Sotm SMS-200 is just about the cheapest DLNA renderer that I know of.  Good find on b0bb!  The SMS-200 will make a much better transport/player than the computer because it likely has better clocks and circuits for doing the USB data transmission.  You can add a linear power supply upgrade later on if you want.

Sonore has much more expensive and capable set of offerings, starting with ultraRendu all the way up to Signature Rendu SE.  The Sonore stuff will support up to DSD512 and includes a mode that supports HQ Player NAA Output.  Much more expensive.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Good morning and thank you very much for your contribution "auxinput". As I have already written in a previous entrys, I am a novice, a beginner, totally inexperienced but thanks to you, I can go step by step. And the truth, my start has been with many stumbles and headaches, but with your invaluable help, I already have the Foobar configured correctly and, I know that it is nonsense and something ridiculous or insignificant to say it here, with all of you experts, connoisseurs , almost digital audio scientists, but I'm excited to say that on the screen of my lks, I can see this image ...


----------



## Gilberto 62

But, at the moment, due to the problems I have had with the 5 meter Diamond usb cable, I am waiting for a new one from my hifi store, so I am using the stock one. Yes, I know that many of you think: "... but how absurd, to spend the same money that the LKS costs on a usb cable (... 1500 euros ...) ...!" I know. But I was very excited and, naive I, I thought it would be the right thing to do, give our dear LKS something to match. Well, it was silly, and also with a bad start, the cable did not transmit the sound well and I returned it to be replaced by another. What I mean by all this is that for now, this is my timid beginning, but that I will move forward, thanks to you, in these, for me, darkness ... Thank you.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Since yesterday, "b0bb" advised me that combination of HQPlayer + Sotm sms200 + LKS, instead of my current one (Foobar + Diamond 5meters + LKS), I am looking and informing myself on the web and in another forum here, Spain, " AudioPlanet ", and I see that everyone speaks wonders and they are very satisfied with the same combination that you recommend here, hqplayer, sms200, lks. I see that the opinions on the matter are of the highest satisfaction. But, it seems to be from what I see, that HQPlayer is not compatible with my Windows7 ... Only with the W10.
     (... One more thing I will have to update ...)


----------



## hpsxrb (May 10, 2020)

AuxInput said:


> LKS MODIFICATIONS


The Mundorf capacitors that you recommend, for the digital power supply and for the analog power supply, are the Mundorf MLytic AG or Mundorf MLytic AG + (4 pin)
Thank you.


----------



## AuxInput (May 10, 2020)

hpsxrb said:


> The Mundorf capacitors that you recommend, for the digital power supply and for the analog power supply, are the Mundorf MLytic AG or Mundorf MLytic AG + (4 pin)
> Thank you.



Just the normal Mlytic AG.  It is only a 2 pin capacitor.  Be aware that you will not be able to fit those 0.1uf film caps in the space between the Mundorf MLytic on the digital supply section.  I have soldered 0.1uf MKP caps to the leads of the Mundorf UNDERNEATH the board.  This is important to call out based on b0bb's comments.


----------



## AuxInput

Gilberto 62 said:


> But, it seems to be from what I see, that HQPlayer is not compatible with my Windows7 ... Only with the W10.
> (... One more thing I will have to update ...)



You may want to email Signalyst to see if that is truly a hard requirement.  The driver interface layer is very similar between Windows 7 and 10, though I'm reading that Windows 10 just sounds better.  If you don't want the pain of upgrading Windows 7 now, you can always just get JRiver so that you can play through the SOTM SMS-200.  I'm running JRiver on Windows 7 with no problems.


----------



## Gilberto 62 (May 10, 2020)

Thank you for your information "auxinput". I will consider that alternative to my current Foobar. In a few days, I will receive the new Diamond 5m usb cable. We will see what will happen with this second cable ...
  I don't know why, but I have the feeling that with the second Diamond 5-meter cable, I will have the same problems as with the first ... I hope I'm wrong ...


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Since yesterday, "b0bb" advised me that combination of HQPlayer + Sotm sms200 + LKS, instead of my current one (Foobar + Diamond 5meters + LKS), I am looking and informing myself on the web and in another forum here, Spain, " AudioPlanet ", and I see that everyone speaks wonders and they are very satisfied with the same combination that you recommend here, hqplayer, sms200, lks. I see that the opinions on the matter are of the highest satisfaction. But, it seems to be from what I see, that HQPlayer is not compatible with my Windows7 ... Only with the W10.
> (... One more thing I will have to update ...)


You could upgrade windows 7 to Windows 10 Pro with 2,20€:
https://www.allkeyshop.com/blog/buy-windows-10-professional-cd-key-compare-prices/


----------



## Gilberto 62

Well I have written an email to the support of HQPlayer, the gentlemen of "Signalyst" about the compatibility of your player and my old-fashioned windows7 and they have already answered me.
     ".... Total incompatibility ..." Well, it doesn't worry me much, because soon I will update all the hardware of my pc and, logically, I will put windows10 ...


----------



## oldearwax

Gilberto 62 said:


> 5 meters, but that is the distance between my htpc and the dac, well, a little less. But gentlemen, how is it possible that a 1500 euro cable does not work ...? 5 meters is a lot ...? so why do they sell them ...?



Have you tried adding an external USB Hub in your usb pipe ?
That is:   PC->2.5m cable -> USB Hub -> 2.5m cable -> LKS dac ??
I don't know for sure if this will work ...
Some computer monitors have built-in  USB 2.0 hubs ...
if yours have it ... test the idea without spending more $$$$, save  your $ for Barcelona games


----------



## Gilberto 62

Thank you for your input "oldearwax". At the moment, I am waiting for the new Audioquest Diamond 5m cable. I hope and wish, since the damn cable has cost 1500 euros, it works. If not, then I will look for another alternative. But this does not have any logic, Audioquest is not a brand of sh .., I think it is a serious brand, therefore, if they sell a 5 meter cable, that cable has to work, yes or yes ...


----------



## AuxInput

One thing about Audioquest HDMI cables I have noticed is that they use very small gauge conductors.  I tried a 2 meter Vodka HDMI cable and found out from Audioquest technical support that this cable has very small 30awg conductors.  This was not happy making for me and it showed in the audio/video performance.  I suspect the same small conductors are used in their USB cable.  If you look at other brands, when they have really long HDMI cables (such as 5-10 meters), they will increase the size of the conductor to allow less resistance on the conductor for the square wave pulses.  The long cables, such as 10 meters, will use larger 24awg conductor and even one that I saw uses 23awg conductors!   Long HDMI cables will operate just fine with 1080p signals, but as soon as you start getting into the 4K signals, it requires a very fast pulse and higher bandwidth requirements.  The long cables just start to fall down because the square wave pulse just does not make it all the way to the end properly.  Let's look at one of the best cables - Nordost cables.  They are one of the best designs, but as soon as you hit 5 meters, the cables automatically become active cables.  This means there is a special chip in the end HDMI plug that boosts the signal and also accelerates the rise time of these digital pulses so that the target TV or projector can actually read the pulses.

I suspect the same thing is happening here with your 5M Diamond.  You probably can play any PCM files just fine, but as soon as you get into DSD files (which are huge and require much higher bandwidth) it starts falling down.  Using a very small awg conductor without any sort of active/boosting circuit will start to fall down on higher data rate pulses.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Pues lo tengo más claro que el agua (... como decimos aquí, en España ...). Si cuando el segundo cable de Audioquest llega a mi casa y tengo problemas nuevamente, vuelva a cablear a la tienda y encuentre otra solución.


----------



## hpsxrb

b0bb said:


> You do not need to change how you use your PC on your deskop.
> -Today you use Foobar to play your music
> -Use HQplayer instead of Foobar in the new setup to play your music.
> You do not need the extra laptop.
> ...


The advantages to solve Gilberto's problem are unquestionable but the drawback is that it does not allow DSD512.


----------



## Gilberto 62 (May 10, 2020)

Well, I have it clearer than water (... as we say here, in Spain ...). If when the second Audioquest cable arrives at my house and I have problems again, rewire to the store and find another solution.


"....Sorry, I put this message in Spanish, I forgot to use the translator ..."


----------



## b0bb

hpsxrb said:


> The advantages to solve Gilberto's problem are unquestionable but the drawback is that it does not allow DSD512.


That is in context to SMS200 running HQplayer (HQP) NAA endpoint, it is underpowered.

It will run the Roon endpoint at DSD512, however Roon's implementation of DSD upsampling is not as good, for example HQP's ASDM7EC SDM/DSD modulator at DSD256 hands down beats Roon at DSD512 in terms of sound stage width and depth, bass slam and lack of edginess and glare.

Roon in turn is a huge step up from older streamers like the Squeezebox and MPD based players.

Unless you have the DSP processing capability (filtering, upsampling, rate conversion)  to take full advantage of DSD512, I would not worry about the difference.


----------



## hpsxrb

b0bb said:


> That is in context to SMS200 running HQplayer (HQP) NAA endpoint, it is underpowered.


So if I understand correctly, I have an advantage in terms of sound in using Roon with HQplayer?
Thank you


----------



## b0bb

hpsxrb said:


> So if I understand correctly, I have an advantage in terms of sound in using Roon with HQplayer?
> Thank you



I look for more  that just good quality playback, good playback is only one part of enjoying the music.
This is the difference between good sound and a satisfying listening experience.

The content of the music library has to be readily available and accessible and I want to be able to control playback from more just than a PC.

I have a large enough collection that I do not want to assemble music playlist manually.
I select a few tracks to tell the server what I want and it takes care of the details.

This is what I use Roon for, I find it is better that anything out there, I previously used Jriver Media server and Logitech Music Server.

Roon has clients that I use on iPhone, iPad and PC.
It handles all the playlists, file selection and processing, connects on the backend to HQPlayer which does all the DSP processing and delivery to the DAC.

Other than high quality DSP based playback, HQP is quite useless, it does not support the format I use and its user interface is too primitive for my requirements.

I actually use HQPlayer Embedded, which just has the DSP engine and it is fed music data from Roon.
I do not use HQPLayer Desktop for the reasons above..
In summary, HQP does the actual playback (backend) and Roon for everything else (frontend).


----------



## AuxInput (May 10, 2020)

So, the new caps have been burning in for 5 days and I figured I would publish some comments now.  I replaced all those dual 47+22 FG caps in the I/V section with a single Nichicon MUSE KZ 100uf 50V in each position (in picture below).  The typical “new cap” glare has burned off a lot in the last 5 days, but I need another 9 days to burn in fully.  Sound is excellent now and I think this is pretty much a done project for me.

I’m able to use DPLL BW01 for all PCM up to 24/192 on both BNC and USB inputs.

DSD64 – have to use BW03
DSD128 – have to use BW06
DSD256 – have to use BW07

I using the stock USB output on my older computer motherboard, so this may have something to do with those numbers.  Pretty much all of my content and sources are PCM, so I’m not really concerned here.  That being said, I believe that I see a JCAT USB card and linear power supply in my future, lol.  I didn’t like any of the USB cable designs out there, so I made my own (was a pain, but it sounds excellent).








Below is a picture of the back side of the I/V where you can see I soldered in WIMA 0.1uf MKP caps.  I soldered them into the wider spaced holes used originally for the polyester film caps.  If you do this, you need to make sure the film cap is balanced flat and does not extend past the height of that transistor heatsink.  In this picture, you can also see the 0.01uf film cap I soldered across the power pins of the Accusilicon clock.


----------



## AuxInput

Picture of the analog power supply post-regulator caps, which I used 1000uf 50V Muse KZ.  They just barely fit and bumped up against the main Mundorf caps.  They are also just as tall as those big Mundorfs! Lol.





Pictures of the digital supply post regulator caps.  I used 470uf 25V MUSE KZ here.  All fit well except for one which I had to put in at an angle (due to spacing next to the 0.1uf MKP).  Recent research indicates that I probably should have used a better low impedance cap such as Panasonic FM or Nichicon HD, but the DAC sounds very good with this MUSE and I’m not going to mess with it again anytime soon.


----------



## hpsxrb (May 11, 2020)

I have tried to configure HQPlayer with Roon but without success: "Plaiback failed because $ couldn't connect to HQPlayer". My PC (with Matrix X-Hi USB with external LPS) is connected to Singxer-SU1. I need some help please.





After all, I will give up HQPlayer because my i7 (6700K) is not up to the task.
For DSD512 in HQPlayer, a 12-color processor is required !!!!!


----------



## b0bb

hpsxrb said:


> I have tried to configure HQPlayer with Roon but without success: "Plaiback failed because $ couldn't connect to HQPlayer". My PC (with Matrix X-Hi USB with external LPS) is connected to Singxer-SU1. I need some help please.
> 
> After all, I will give up HQPlayer because my i7 (6700K) is not up to the task.
> For DSD512 in HQPlayer, a 12-color processor is required !!!!!


Take it 1 step at a time. 
i7-6700k is a quadcore so you will have to use a less CPU intensive set of options.

Use the following.
Filter: poly-sinc-short-lp
Modulator: DSD5
Click on Multicore DSP to get the check mark
Click on CUDA offload if you have a NVIDIA GTX1060 and above

12core CPU not required, I am using 8core@5GHz.

Look here to setup HQP and Roon
https://kb.roonlabs.com/HQPlayer_Setup


----------



## hpsxrb (May 13, 2020)

AuxInput said:


> LKS MODIFICATIONS
> 
> I have done a significantly more amount of work than most people would do.  However, it all adds up in the end.  With all the upgrades, this DAC no longer resembles stock.  The resolution and attack are amazing.  High frequency detail is significantly improved and much more realistic.  Bass is significantly stronger (think “punch you in the chest” type of bass).  This DAC is now absolutely beautiful to listen to.
> 
> ...


In Analog I/V section
220pf MKP caps => Upgraded to 220pf Kemet PFR film-on-foil caps. These are the 3 caps in the middle if the discrete circuit
Help me please locate these capacitors.
Thank you


----------



## oldearwax

hpsxrb said:


> In Analog I/V section
> 220pf MKP caps => Upgraded to 220pf Kemet PFR film-on-foil caps. These are the 3 caps in the middle if the discrete circuit
> Help me please identify these capacitors.
> Thank you


AuxInput gave the part # a few post back, here is the link...
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...A7oeWXQz1MWuv9IKm/v%2Bd8JqLQjp4w9r5jeoAUmmGBN


----------



## hpsxrb

oldearwax said:


> AuxInput gave the part # a few post back, here is the link...
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/KEMET/PFR5221J63J11L4BULK?qs=/ha2pyFadugPu0FwGxdJDA7oeWXQz1MWuv9IKm/v%2Bd8JqLQjp4w9r5jeoAUmmGBN


Thank you but what I wanted to know was the location of the condensers (I already edited my previous post).


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Amanero has new NativeDSD (non DoP) firmware for the Combo384 used in the 004.
> 
> This latest version eliminated the dropouts on DSD512.
> 
> ...




Hi b0bb,
is the LKS 004 capable of playing 705.6/768kHz after installing the newest firmware?
Does the PCM also sounds better after the firmware update? Thanks.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Hi b0bb,
> is the LKS 004 capable of playing 705.6/768kHz after installing the newest firmware?
> Does the PCM also sounds better after the firmware update? Thanks.


No to both.


----------



## AuxInput (May 14, 2020)

hpsxrb said:


> In Analog I/V section
> 220pf MKP caps => Upgraded to 220pf Kemet PFR film-on-foil caps. These are the 3 caps in the middle if the discrete circuit
> Help me please locate these capacitors.
> Thank you



There are only two 220pf film caps in the middle of each discrete circuit on my unit which were WIMA MKP caps.  On older units, they could be silver mica capacitors.

I am just describing what was in my unit.  I would highly suggest that you open up your own unit and determine the actual values for all film caps. I know that LKS has gone through several revisions and the values may have changed.  The resistor values are definitely different between generations of the units.


----------



## JecklinStax

Robert McAdam said:


> Don't panic until all avenues are covered. Personally I don't think the Oppo is the answer. Potentially the LKS should be better. In saying this you may have a faulty unit. But software and connections can be problematic. Also your source. Restarting items after renewed software etc.
> 
> Ric Schultz may give us some insight into the sound from this new player soon. Seems few of these players are in the hands of reviewers yet.


Three years ago I bought the LKS DA004. Its sound quality bowled me over, and I am still very happy I made that choice. I would like to keep it. But in digital audio three years is a very long time. Is the 004 still top of the heap? Are there serious competitors in this price range now?


----------



## hpsxrb

AuxInput said:


> So, the new caps have been burning in for 5 days and I figured I would publish some comments now.  I replaced all those dual 47+22 FG caps in the I/V section with a single Nichicon MUSE KZ 100uf 50V in each position (in picture below).  The typical “new cap” glare has burned off a lot in the last 5 days, but I need another 9 days to burn in fully.  Sound is excellent now and I think this is pretty much a done project for me.
> 
> I’m able to use DPLL BW01 for all PCM up to 24/192 on both BNC and USB inputs.
> 
> ...


Can you please tell me the part number of the 0.01uf capacitor welded through the power pins of the Accusilicon clock?
Thank you.


----------



## AuxInput

hpsxrb said:


> Can you please tell me the part number of the 0.01uf capacitor welded through the power pins of the Accusilicon clock?
> Thank you.



It's a Panasonic film cap.  Digikey part number P12109-ND .

https://www.digikey.com/product-det...ronic-components/ECW-F6103HL/P12109-ND/585176


----------



## Gilberto 62

Good afternoon everyone. A few days ago, I was exposing here my frustrating problem with the Audioquest Diamond 5 meter usb cable. In my posts here, I wrote my disappointment and my anger with the performance of the Diamond, cuts, crunches, clicks, blah, blah, blah ... I returned the cable to the store and there, puzzled by my explanations, they were testing it and after a few days, they called me saying that the cable worked perfectly with all kinds of files and mqa relay. Well, yesterday I picked it up again from the store and today, after having touched some parameters previously days ago on my pc and using the stock cable, I reconnect the Diamond to my pc and everything works correctly, flacs, waws, dsd, dst etc etc ...
    Conclusion: all due to my inexperience and clumsiness, which thanks to you I have been able to correct. I know that with this post of mine I do not contribute anything to the community, because here we talk about modifications, upgrades, etc., but I think it was necessary and honest, to explain here the reality of what has happened.
     Thank you all...


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Good afternoon everyone. A few days ago, I was exposing here my frustrating problem with the Audioquest Diamond 5 meter usb cable. In my posts here, I wrote my disappointment and my anger with the performance of the Diamond, cuts, crunches, clicks, blah, blah, blah ... I returned the cable to the store and there, puzzled by my explanations, they were testing it and after a few days, they called me saying that the cable worked perfectly with all kinds of files and mqa relay. Well, yesterday I picked it up again from the store and today, after having touched some parameters previously days ago on my pc and using the stock cable, I reconnect the Diamond to my pc and everything works correctly, flacs, waws, dsd, dst etc etc ...
> Conclusion: all due to my inexperience and clumsiness, which thanks to you I have been able to correct. I know that with this post of mine I do not contribute anything to the community, because here we talk about modifications, upgrades, etc., but I think it was necessary and honest, to explain here the reality of what has happened.
> Thank you all...


We all contribute even if only with questions, especially when we have answers to them through other members more knowledgeable and always willing to help.


----------



## hpsxrb (May 17, 2020)

In LKS 004 in Digital Power Supply are Post Regulator capacitors with a value of 390uF / 50V. There is some technical reason for not replacing them with a considerably higher value of 870uF / 50V (Panasonic FM 870uF / 50V 667-EEU-FM1H821L) that fit ?
Thank you.


----------



## Forgisound

Higher values will not help the power supply work better.  Conversely, problems will arise. One should be very careful with upgrades.


----------



## oldearwax

Gilberto 62 said:


> ...
> after having touched some parameters previously days ago on my pc and using the stock cable, I reconnect the Diamond to my pc and everything works correctly,
> ...


What are the  parameters ??
Let me guess ...  
You turn off windows defender and other non-essential services ?
OR
You gave higher priority to foobar in task manager ?
OR
You increased the buffer delay in foobar ?


----------



## Gilberto 62

Hello oldearwax. Well look, the whole day was going well, but I don't know what I have done but now, everything is cut again. I don't know if it was from touching something in the foobar buffer, but this goes back to continuous cuts. In task manager, I have overridden everything other than the Foobar. Why won't the Amanero board be failing ...? How could I know ...? Well, at least I know that it is not the Diamond cable that is failing. The problem has to be in my pc or, I hope not, in the lks ....


----------



## Gilberto 62

More tests.  Now I have changed usb port.  Until now, I used the "USB DAC-UP" output on the back of my pc and now I have plugged it into a front usb socket.  At the moment it is going well ... Let's see what happens.  I think I will end up buying a laptop and dedicating it exclusively to dac ....


----------



## hpsxrb (May 17, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> More tests.  Now I have changed usb port.  Until now, I used the "USB DAC-UP" output on the back of my pc and now I have plugged it into a front usb socket.  At the moment it is going well ... Let's see what happens.  I think I will end up buying a laptop and dedicating it exclusively to dac ....


Laptop is not the correct answer, rather a desktop (with BIG hdd) to be able to insert an adapter for the dac usb.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Dear hpsxrb, if before using the output "usb dac-up" of my desktop computer it has failed again with the clear and evident symptoms that something is wrong in the usb contact, that is, cuts and frozen player, nailed, as if You disconnect the usb by pulling the cable and now, using a usb output on the front of my pc it works well again, correctly, without jumps, maybe the problem is in that "usb dac-up" socket on my pc. By the way, could you explain me what is that of an adapter for the usb dac ...?


----------



## hpsxrb (May 17, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Dear hpsxrb, if before using the output "usb dac-up" of my desktop computer it has failed again with the clear and evident symptoms that something is wrong in the usb contact, that is, cuts and frozen player, nailed, as if You disconnect the usb by pulling the cable and now, using a usb output on the front of my pc it works well again, correctly, without jumps, maybe the problem is in that "usb dac-up" socket on my pc. By the way, could you explain me what is that of an adapter for the usb dac ...?


I for example have a MATRIX X-Hi External USB 3.0 (with many solutions and a wide range of prices) that regenerates the USB signal that comes from the PC and as it has a linear power supply, the PC power does not reach the DAC.


----------



## Gilberto 62

https://www.eliteaudiouk.com/product-page/matrix-audio-x-hi-card-hi-fi-usb-3-0-pcie-card

You mean that ...?


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> https://www.eliteaudiouk.com/product-page/matrix-audio-x-hi-card-hi-fi-usb-3-0-pcie-card
> 
> You mean that ...?


Yes but not at this price:
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/pc-h....html?search_query=matrix x-hi&fast_search=fs


----------



## Gilberto 62

A question ... as it seems that it is that rear output "usb dac-up" that causes me the problem, at the moment and waiting for a better solution, any usb socket on my pc serves to connect the lks ... ? Don't laugh, please ...


----------



## hpsxrb (May 17, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> A question ... as it seems that it is that rear output "usb dac-up" that causes me the problem, at the moment and waiting for a better solution, any usb socket on my pc serves to connect the lks ... ? Don't laugh, please ...


Yes


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## Gilberto 62

hpsxrb said:


> Yes but not at this price:
> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/pc-htpc-modules/matrix-x-hi-external-usb-30-power-controller-filter-for-pc-p-11976.html?search_query=matrix x-hi&fast_search=fs


OK understood. So that external matrix usb filter is better than any usb socket on my pc ...? I guess so...


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> OK understood. So that external matrix usb filter is better than any usb socket on my pc ...? I guess so...


Yes, because the noise from the PC power supply does not reach the DAC.
There are many solutions so it was good to hear opinions from more qualified people than me.


----------



## b0bb

hpsxrb said:


> In LKS 004 in Digital Power Supply are Post Regulator capacitors with a value of 390uF / 50V. There is some technical reason for not replacing them with a considerably higher value of 870uF / 50V (Panasonic FM 870uF / 50V 667-EEU-FM1H821L) that fit ?
> Thank you.



Make the changes to the caps in the I/V first.

Give it 2+ weeks to settle and burn-in.

If you like the result then try the mod you mention above. 390uF --> 870uF is a modest bump.


Always make 1 set of changes at a time, combining multiple changes at the same time is not good.
If you end up not liking the combined result, you will not know which change was responsible.


----------



## oldearwax

Gilberto 62 said:


> Dear hpsxrb, if before using the output "usb dac-up" of my desktop computer it has failed again with the clear and evident symptoms that something is wrong in the usb contact, that is, cuts and frozen player, nailed, as if You disconnect the usb by pulling the cable and now, using a usb output on the front of my pc it works well again, correctly, without jumps, maybe the problem is in that "usb dac-up" socket on my pc.


Try deoxit on the contacts of both socket and plug
https://www.amazon.com/Hosa-G5S-6-DeoxIT-Contact-Enhancer/dp/B00FC4YO60

Often I rejuvenate PCIe video card fingers/connectors  with deoxit when they misbehave.


----------



## AuxInput

Gilberto 62 said:


> Good afternoon everyone. A few days ago, I was exposing here my frustrating problem with the Audioquest Diamond 5 meter usb cable. In my posts here, I wrote my disappointment and my anger with the performance of the Diamond, cuts, crunches, clicks, blah, blah, blah ...



I have actually had audio cutouts and clicks / crunches when I open my Chrome web browser.  I definitely get cutouts from audio when I browse some very intense web pages with a lot of browser processing.  I fixed this by manually resetting the CPU priority of the JRiver software.  Please be aware that you have to do this every time you exit/close the software and re-launch it.  Since my Jriver is open and resident 24/7, I usually only have to do this when I reboot my computer.  I just go to task manager (ctrl-shift-escape).  Right-click on the name of your process task and select "Set Priority => High".  The process name for JRiver is "Media Center 22.exe".  I don't know what it is for Foobar.  This forces Windows to give a higher CPU priority to the audio software than other applications.

I've looked at automated process priority software and most of it is malicious trojan sypware junk.  Don't go this route.

You may also want to check this:

Control Panel => System => Advanced System Settings.  On the Performance tab, click "Settings" for Performance.  Go to Advanced tab and make sure Process schedule is set for "Programs"  (NOT for "Background services").


----------



## Gilberto 62

Guys, thanks to all of you for your valuable answers, suggestions and opinions. Well, it seems that the problem is in the usb output that I am using from the motherboard of my computer, a rear output from the Gigabyte G1 Sniper Z87 motherboard called "usb dac-up", I put the text copied from the web here Gigabyte:

"... Incorporating a gold-plated USB 2.0 port, GIGABYTE USB DAC-UP provides clean, noise-free power to a digital-to-analog converter. DACs can be sensitive to fluctuations in power from other USB ports So GIGABYTE USB DAC-UP benefits from an isolated power source that minimizes potential jitter and ensures the best possible audio experience .... "

    As I am also trying to get help in another forum here, Spain, they tell me there that this usb dac-up output is powered with an extra current or something, more or less, but that it is intended for usb dacs, that is to say , dacs that do not have their own power but take the current from the usb. As our beloved LKS already has its own power supply, they tell me in that forum that this is creating a conflict and that is why I have those symptoms that something of the usb is not going well, suddenly it stops playing, it jumps and finally freezes the player is blocked, both Foobar and JRiver. What do you think...?
-Apply "deoxit" to the usb dac-up output ...?
-I format the bios of my pc will help in something ...?
-I use another usb output from my pc ...?
-I forget the usb outputs of my pc and buy says our appreciated hpsxrb the usb adapter "Matrix X-Hi External USB 3.0" ....?
     Any feedback will be greatly appreciated ...


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## hpsxrb (May 18, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Guys, thanks to all of you for your valuable answers, suggestions and opinions. Well, it seems that the problem is in the usb output that I am using from the motherboard of my computer, a rear output from the Gigabyte G1 Sniper Z87 motherboard called "usb dac-up", I put the text copied from the web here Gigabyte:
> 
> "... Incorporating a gold-plated USB 2.0 port, GIGABYTE USB DAC-UP provides clean, noise-free power to a digital-to-analog converter. DACs can be sensitive to fluctuations in power from other USB ports So GIGABYTE USB DAC-UP benefits from an isolated power source that minimizes potential jitter and ensures the best possible audio experience .... "
> 
> ...


It is not necessary to format the PC.
It is sufficient on the PC to do the following:
Go to "Device Manafer", find the "Universal Serial Bus controllers" and uninstall everything USBxxx (USB anything).
You restart the PC and go back to "Universal Bus controllers" and select the option "Scan for Hardware Changes".
What this process is going to do is uninstall the USB devices and reinstall them.

Regarding Matrix X-Hi, I suppose there must be newer and better solutions.


----------



## Gilberto 62

What would I do without this forum ...? Well, hpsxrb, I am very aware of what you tell me there and tomorrow I will dedicate myself to that. Now, before I go to work, I have done the following, you are going to laugh :
    I put the vacuum cleaner tube (... and I have a powerful vacuum cleaner  ...) at the outlet that usb dac-up for a couple of minutes at maximum power, then I sprayed the Deoxit usb spray socket, I cleaned the end of the Diamond cable with isopropyl alcohol, I have put in the task manager of windows the highest process priority for Foobar, I have loaded in Foobar files with duration of 14 hours. At the moment, it works well, it plays normally and the lks screen shows the upsampling to dsd512 as I have it configured in Foobar. Tonight, when I get home from work, I'll see what happens, if it keeps working or has crashed again ...
     Well, at least, I know the problem is not with the Audioquest Diamond cable. I hope and wish that the problem is in something on my pc and not in the lks.


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> What would I do without this forum ...? Well, hpsxrb, I am very aware of what you tell me there and tomorrow I will dedicate myself to that. Now, before I go to work, I have done the following, you are going to laugh :
> I put the vacuum cleaner tube (... and I have a powerful vacuum cleaner  ...) at the outlet that usb dac-up for a couple of minutes at maximum power, then I sprayed the Deoxit usb spray socket, I cleaned the end of the Diamond cable with isopropyl alcohol, I have put in the task manager of windows the highest process priority for Foobar, I have loaded in Foobar files with duration of 14 hours. At the moment, it works well, it plays normally and the lks screen shows the upsampling to dsd512 as I have it configured in Foobar. Tonight, when I get home from work, I'll see what happens, if it keeps working or has crashed again ...
> Well, at least, I know the problem is not with the Audioquest Diamond cable. I hope and wish that the problem is in something on my pc and not in the lks.


It is a smart solution to connect a vacuum cleaner to the DAC !


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## Gilberto 62

... Yes, I know ... ha ha ha ... I have already said a thousand times that I am a total novice and I also have to use the translator to communicate with you ... ho ho ho. ..but, I know that sooner or later, thanks to you and to my efforts and insistence, ... I will succeed ...!


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## AuxInput

Uhm, Be aware that vacuum will create static electricity and can damage circuits.  It's much better to use blown air to clean contacts and computer parts.


----------



## Gilberto 62

... and I'm here, at work, thinking: ".... what will be happening with the lks and foobar there, in my house ..."


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## hpsxrb (May 18, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> ... and I'm here, at work, thinking: ".... what will be happening with the lks and foobar there, in my house ..."


. . . and the vacuum cleaner !


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## Gilberto 62

hpsxrb said:


> . . . and the vacuum cleaner !





hpsxrb said:


> . . . and the vacuum cleaner !





hpsxrb said:


> . . . and the vacuum cleaner !


... I hope that this ultra high-power vacuum cleaner has been used for something ... like making dust, microbes, parasites and problems disappear ...


----------



## Gilberto 62

Well, seriously, I think the problem is in something on my pc.  Tonight, when I get home, I hope that continues to work.  If not and I see that it has been stuck, frozen, I will try the last thing that our friend "hpsxrb" has advised me.  Anyway, I am more or less happy or calm knowing that the Diamond cable has no problem and I hope that the LKS does not ....


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## Gilberto 62

Well this afternoon, in the moments of rest in my work, I am looking and reading other subforums here, of the Head-Fi, about other dacs and well, I am seeing that I am not the only one with problems, jams, trips, etc, etc.  .  The truth is, it is a consolation for me to see that there are a million little problems around the planet DAC here ...


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## hpsxrb (May 18, 2020)

I have no problems of any kind with my setup:
Desktop PC with "MATRIX X-Hi External USB 3.0" (powered by a linear power supply), connected via usb to a modified Singxer-SU1 and this in turn connected by IIS-H to LKS 004.
The USB cable is "Wireworld Platinum Starlight 7 USB 2.0" and the HDMI cable is Wireworld Ultraviolet 7 (60cm).
In DSD512 I have a DPPL of 7/8 cold and 5/7 when hot.


----------



## Gilberto 62

hpsxrb said:


> I have no problems of any kind with my setup:
> Desktop PC with "MATRIX X-Hi External USB 3.0" (powered by a linear power supply), connected via usb to a modified Singxer-SU1 and this in turn connected by IIS-H to LKS 004.
> The USB cable is "Wireworld Platinum Starlight 7 USB 2.0" and the HDMI cable is Wireworld Ultraviolet 7 (60cm).
> In DSD512 I have a DPPL of 7/8 cold and 5/7 when hot.


....I al


hpsxrb said:


> I have no problems of any kind with my setup:
> Desktop PC with "MATRIX X-Hi External USB 3.0" (powered by a linear power supply), connected via usb to a modified Singxer-SU1 and this in turn connected by IIS-H to LKS 004.
> The USB cable is "Wireworld Platinum Starlight 7 USB 2.0" and the HDMI cable is Wireworld Ultraviolet 7 (60cm).
> In DSD512 I have a DPPL of 7/8 cold and 5/7 when hot.


... I also want that performance in my house ...


----------



## Gilberto 62

Well, I have come to my house after leaving the lks with foobar playing dsd64, dsd128, flacs, wavs files for ten hours and everything works correctly. The truth is that I'm happy, because I think I'm making a little progress. It remains to be seen what has influenced this small triumph, the vacuum cleaner at its maximum power in the usb dac-up output ...? The deoxit on that usb dac-up output ...? Have you prioritized the Foobar in the Windows Task Manager ...? Well, little by little I will find out. I already know that this message is silly and a bit childish and that nobody cares about it for how simple it is, but I'm happy and wanted to let you know. Thanks to all of you, a thousand thanks for helping this newbie to advance in the darkness ...


----------



## Gilberto 62

Hello everyone. Well this works wonderfully ...! Today he has been playing all kinds of files for several hours with Foobar and everything is perfect, smooth as silk. I even open Chrome and other programs to test if there is a microcut, click or a small click ... and nothing, everything is fine. And this little check I am doing not with my speakers, I do it with my Grado PS1000 trying to hear some strange noise when opening the browser or some program. Nothing, everything perfect. I'm very happy...
     I don't know what will have been decisive in this result, if the vacuum cleaner applied to the "usb dac-up" output, or having sprayed the interior of that outlet with Deoxit or having prioritized the Foobar in the windows task manager. .I think, I don't know, that the problem would be a bad contact of the Diamond cable with the usb output of my motherboard "usb dac-up", maybe dirt inside the output ... Well, the case is that finally I can enjoy pleasant listening without scares or disappointments. Anyway, our partner from the forum "hpsxrb" tells me that it is not highly recommended to give high priority to Foobar in the Windows task manager, which I have also been able to read in an article on the web, coinciding with it. Does anyone want to say something about that ...? Thanks to all of you for your answers ...


----------



## Dziejo36

Recently remote for my LKS MH-DA004 lost few functions. I can increase the volume but cannot turn it down,
Stand-by function doesn’t work, which is specially difficult. I replaced battery and tried to reset the unit but the fault doesn’t go.
Pressing buttons on the remote switches red light on it, all buttons seem to turn light on but it doesn’t activate the corresponding
Main unit’s functions. I wonder if this is a fault of receiver inside DAC rather than remote itself. 
Any ideas? Can you help?


----------



## hpsxrb (May 20, 2020)

Dziejo36 said:


> Recently remote for my LKS MH-DA004 lost few functions. I can increase the volume but cannot turn it down,
> Stand-by function doesn’t work, which is specially difficult. I replaced battery and tried to reset the unit but the fault doesn’t go.
> Pressing buttons on the remote switches red light on it, all buttons seem to turn light on but it doesn’t activate the corresponding
> Main unit’s functions. I wonder if this is a fault of receiver inside DAC rather than remote itself.
> Any ideas? Can you help?


Try to have the remote without battery but for an extended period (if possible for 48h).


----------



## hpsxrb (May 20, 2020)

Can someone tell me please if on the USB cable connecting the PC to Singxer (or LKS) it is possible to use a USB cable only with data connections ("data-" and "data +") and therefore without "GND" and "+ 5VDC" ?
In short, similar to the iFi Gemini 3.0 cable but without connecting the part of the power cable.
Thank you.


----------



## AuxInput

hpsxrb said:


> Can someone tell me please if on the USB cable connecting the PC to Singxer (or LKS) it is possible to use a USB cable only with data connections ("data-" and "data +") and therefore without "GND" and "+ 5VDC" ?
> In short, similar to the iFi Gemini 3.0 cable but without connecting the part of the power cable.
> Thank you.



I have built my own USB cable, which includes all conductors except for "+5V DC".  My cable uses +data, -data, GND and SHIELD.  Please be aware that GND and SHIELD conductors are two separate things and they do not connect inside the USB cable at all.  Also, GND and SHIELD are handled differently within the circuit on the receiving "DAC" side.  

My custom built USB cable works just fine with the LKS DAC, so I'm sure getting an audiophile "Data Only" USB cable should work just fine.  That being said, I'm not sure that I would recommend connecting a USB cable to a DAC without a GND conductor.  It is fine to remove the +5V conductor from the USB cable, but it is recommended that the cable still have a GND conductor for the shared ground plane between devices.  There could potentially be problems if you are missing GND.

For the Singxer, I would assume it would be fine as well since the Singxer has its own power supply.


----------



## b0bb

hpsxrb said:


> Can someone tell me please if on the USB cable connecting the PC to Singxer (or LKS) it is possible to use a USB cable only with data connections ("data-" and "data +") and therefore without "GND" and "+ 5VDC" ?
> In short, similar to the iFi Gemini 3.0 cable but without connecting the part of the power cable.
> Thank you.



LKS built in USB:
Enhanced USB interface with its own powersuply : YES
Standard USB interface: NO

Singxer SU1/SU6:
NO


----------



## b0bb

Dziejo36 said:


> Recently remote for my LKS MH-DA004 lost few functions. I can increase the volume but cannot turn it down,
> Stand-by function doesn’t work, which is specially difficult. I replaced battery and tried to reset the unit but the fault doesn’t go.
> Pressing buttons on the remote switches red light on it, all buttons seem to turn light on but it doesn’t activate the corresponding
> Main unit’s functions. I wonder if this is a fault of receiver inside DAC rather than remote itself.
> Any ideas? Can you help?


Try re-seating the 2 ribbon cables connected to the front panel.


----------



## hpsxrb (May 21, 2020)

Thank you very much @AuxInput and @b0bb for all the help to my doubts.
I suppose that for LKS 004 it is not advisable to use a "Foil Interconnect Cable" of 1,5m (in balanced connection) ?
https://www.solidcoreaudio.com/doityourself.html
"This cable has - compared to other ribbon cables - a rather low capacitance."
Thank you.


----------



## oldearwax

hpsxrb said:


> Thank you very much @AuxInput and @b0bb for all the help to my doubts.
> I suppose that for LKS 004 it is not advisable to use a "Foil Interconnect Cable" of 1,5m (in balanced connection) ?
> https://www.solidcoreaudio.com/doityourself.html
> "This cable has - compared to other ribbon cables - a rather low capacitance."



From what I've read, USB cable is a transmission line: the impedance (sqrt(L/C)) has to be 90 Ohm
for the differential data to be captured correctly. 
I can't find the L and C spec on the soldicoreaudio webpage.


----------



## AuxInput

hpsxrb said:


> Thank you very much @AuxInput and @b0bb for all the help to my doubts.
> I suppose that for LKS 004 it is not advisable to use a "Foil Interconnect Cable" of 1,5m (in balanced connection) ?
> https://www.solidcoreaudio.com/doityourself.html
> "This cable has - compared to other ribbon cables - a rather low capacitance."
> Thank you.



If you are making a standard XLR interconnect, using foil should be fine.  It's just another type of conductor.  Just make sure you use all 3 conductor pins.  Ground and Shield are the same thing on an XLR cable.


----------



## Forgisound

According to my research, for sound quality and a proper timbre LKS004, the quality of the power cord is crucial.  The DAC acts like a chameleon, depending on the quality of the current, changing the character of the sound.  If the rest of the setup is well configured, with a quality power cord, the DAC can work as a top high end device.  But with poor current, it can work quite averagely.  Of course, it is not enough to make the cable expensive.  It should match the DAC and the entire setup.


----------



## hpsxrb

Forgisound said:


> According to my research, for sound quality and a proper timbre LKS004, the quality of the power cord is crucial.  The DAC acts like a chameleon, depending on the quality of the current, changing the character of the sound.  If the rest of the setup is well configured, with a quality power cord, the DAC can work as a top high end device.  But with poor current, it can work quite averagely.  Of course, it is not enough to make the cable expensive.  It should match the DAC and the entire setup.


Can you please tell me, according to your experiences, what was the best power cord for LKS (the details of it)?
Thank you very much.


----------



## Forgisound

hpsxrb said:


> Can you please tell me, according to your experiences, what was the best power cord for LKS (the details of it)?
> Thank you very much.





hpsxrb said:


> Can you please tell me, according to your experiences, what was the best power cord for LKS (the details of it)?
> Thank you very much.


I made a silver / teflon cable.  3 wires of 1.5 mm diameter and 1 ground wire.  Spiral geometry like Nordost Valhalla.  Tried Nordost Valhalla and Shunyata Python, my DIY on LKS is better.  But I had to clear the whole setup of various restrictions.


----------



## hpsxrb

Forgisound said:


> I made a silver / teflon cable.  3 wires of 1.5 mm diameter and 1 ground wire.  Spiral geometry like Nordost Valhalla.  Tried Nordost Valhalla and Shunyata Python, my DIY on LKS is better.  But I had to clear the whole setup of various restrictions.


Is it something like "Flavor 1" on this link?
https://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html
Thank you.


----------



## Dziejo36

hpsxrb said:


> Try to have the remote without battery but for an extended period (if possible for 48h).


Remote left without battery for 48 hours. When I placed battery back in place the remote doesn't work!!!! Another battery did no difference, remote still not working, completely no response to any buttons, no red light, dead. new one is on the way so I hope there is a hope... In the meantime I received Hypex NC400 mono blocs diy sets. About 3 hours to get them working. Then.. Nothing to say but: WOW!!!!!!!!!! Never heard anything like this before. Well spend money. 
I wonder what is the science behind leaving remote without power supply for extended period of time?


----------



## hpsxrb (May 22, 2020)

Dziejo36 said:


> Remote left without battery for 48 hours. When I placed battery back in place the remote doesn't work!!!! Another battery did no difference, remote still not working, completely no response to any buttons, no red light, dead. new one is on the way so I hope there is a hope... In the meantime I received Hypex NC400 mono blocs diy sets. About 3 hours to get them working. Then.. Nothing to say but: WOW!!!!!!!!!! Never heard anything like this before. Well spend money.
> I wonder what is the science behind leaving remote without power supply for extended period of time?


The science behind leaving the remote without batteries is to discharge its capacitors.
In my old Jeff Rowland Synergy the treatment paid off.


----------



## Forgisound (May 22, 2020)

hpsxrb said:


> Is it something like "Flavor 1" on this link?
> https://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html
> Thank you.


No.





hpsxrb said:


> Is it something like "Flavor 1" on this link?
> https://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html
> Thank you.


No, look at Nordost Valhalla.  The cable is transparent and the geometry is visible.  The conductors are solid core.
99,99 silver for power cord is good.


----------



## hpsxrb

Forgisound said:


> No.
> No, look at Nordost Valhalla.  The cable is transparent and the geometry is visible.  The conductors are solid core.
> 99,99 silver for power cord is good.


What is the conductive area in each of these "solid silver wire" to LKS?
Is ground wire silver too?
Thank you.


----------



## Forgisound (May 22, 2020)

hpsxrb said:


> What is the conductive area in each of these "solid silver wire" to LKS?
> Is ground wire silver too?
> Thank you.


Yes, groud must be silver wire.
It's not cheap to make, but this DAC pays for itself with sound quality.
Of course the speakers and setup must be high resolution, because silver can bring out distortions.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Good afternoon guys  As I see that they are talking about giving the lks a good power cable, the novice (... me ...), I wanted to ask you what you think about the power cable that I use in several of my devices.  It is the "Furutech evolution power II" power cable and that, depending on what you tell me, would also put in our beloved lks.  Thanks for your opinion.

http://www.furutech.com/2013/02/02/1816/


----------



## AuxInput

Power cord opinions are all over the board and are likely to be very personal based on taste in sound.  I can see that Nordost and silver-plated are recommended by more than one person above.  I am actually of the opposite opinion.  After a lot of testing with different components, I have determined that I don't like the sound of silver in my systems.  I use an Audioquest NRG-4 cable.  The ends have been chopped and Furutech rhodium plated connectors are applied.  The Audioquest NRG-4 is the best affordable solid-core power cord that I know of.  The NRG-2 can also be used, but not as good. 

In the end, it depends on what kind of sound you want and your own opinions or feelings.


----------



## Forgisound (May 23, 2020)

AuxInput said:


> Power cord opinions are all over the board and are likely to be very personal based on taste in sound.  I can see that Nordost and silver-plated are recommended by more than one person above.  I am actually of the opposite opinion.  After a lot of testing with different components, I have determined that I don't like the sound of silver in my systems.  I use an Audioquest NRG-4 cable.  The ends have been chopped and Furutech rhodium plated connectors are applied.  The Audioquest NRG-4 is the best affordable solid-core power cord that I know of.  The NRG-2 can also be used, but not as good.
> 
> In the end, it depends on what kind of sound you want and your own opinions or feelings.


Maybe I should have written how I listen to classical and jazz. 
In my opinion, Nordost Valhalla is a warm cable.  Details are heard, but the character is warm.
When the sound is precise, clear and transparent enough, then one can truly enjoy the music.  That doesn't apply to rock music.


----------



## hpsxrb

Forgisound said:


> No.
> No, look at Nordost Valhalla.  The cable is transparent and the geometry is visible.  The conductors are solid core.
> 99,99 silver for power cord is good.


Could you please give me the links you used to make your Nordost Valhalla power cable?
I didn't find anything that allowed me to see their geometry.
Thank you


----------



## wwmhf

b0bb said:


> LKS built in USB:
> Enhanced USB interface with its own powersuply : YES
> Standard USB interface: NO
> 
> ...



Not directly related to the original post, but I would like to share that Gustard U16 can use a USB cable that has no +5V


----------



## Gilberto 62

b0bb said:


> Amanero has new NativeDSD (non DoP) firmware for the Combo384 used in the 004.
> 
> This latest version eliminated the dropouts on DSD512.
> 
> ...



Hello guys. Please, I have had the lks for a couple of weeks and I play my music through Foobar upsampling to DSD512 and everything is great, but how can I know if my Amanero board is updated or not ...? Is there a simple way (... within the reach of a newbie ...) to find out ...? Thanks guys for all your knowledge ...


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Hello guys. Please, I have had the lks for a couple of weeks and I play my music through Foobar upsampling to DSD512 and everything is great, but how can I know if my Amanero board is updated or not ...? Is there a simple way (... within the reach of a newbie ...) to find out ...? Thanks guys for all your knowledge ...


It is only possible by opening the LKS and disassembling the Amanero board.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Well, since I only have experience with dust vacuums and burnt out bulbs, it will be best to let it run ....


----------



## b0bb (May 23, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Hello guys. Please, I have had the lks for a couple of weeks and I play my music through Foobar upsampling to DSD512 and everything is great, but how can I know if my Amanero board is updated or not ...? Is there a simple way (... within the reach of a newbie ...) to find out ...? Thanks guys for all your knowledge ...


Your LKS shows it is locked on to the DSD512 clock, you have a DSD512 capable version of the firmware on the Amanero.

If you must have the latest version, you will need to get help at your location, partial disassembly of the DAC is required to get this done.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Thanks b0bb. Well then I stop worrying about the firmware and keep enjoying this cool lks ....


----------



## hpsxrb

Does anyone know how much power draw the LKS 004?
Thank you.


----------



## JBP3

Question for you guys, can I drive very high efficiency speakers directly from this DAC? In other words does it have approximately 2 Watts of audio output more or less? Has anybody actually tried this? For example I understand this is done with the Chord Dave. Thanks in advance for any insight!


----------



## Forgisound

JBP3 said:


> Question for you guys, can I drive very high efficiency speakers directly from this DAC? In other words does it have approximately 2 Watts of audio output more or less? Has anybody actually tried this? For example I understand this is done with the Chord Dave. Thanks in advance for any insight!


Not.  That's not a good idea.  DACs typically have very little power.  Often they can't even drive amplifier.


----------



## MartinWT

My LKS drives a Burson buffer before the power amp, which greatly improves the heft and slam in delivery.  There is no chance that the LKS could drive speakers directly.


----------



## JBP3

Thanks to all for the reply. And also thank you for the heads up on the person buffer, I looked into it and it looks intriguing.


----------



## JBP3

Sorry, that would be Burson buffer.


----------



## hpsxrb (May 29, 2020)

b0bb please,
Following a statement from you on this subject, can you please tell me if there are already proven benefits in replacing the rectifier diodes provided for in the LKS update (MBRF10H100-E3/45) with the Schottky Silicon Carbide Diodes?
I looked for something like 100V / 10A but with a good price and only found these on Mouser:
511-STPSC8065D (8A / 650V)
726-IDH06G65C6XKSA1 (16A / 650V)
Thank you.


----------



## b0bb

hpsxrb said:


> b0bb please,
> Following a statement from you on this subject, can you please tell me if there are already proven benefits in replacing the rectifier diodes provided for in the LKS update (MBRF10H100-E3/45) with the Schottky Silicon Carbide Diodes?
> I looked for something like 100V / 10A but with a good price and only found these on Mouser:
> 511-STPSC8065D (8A / 650V)
> ...


Mouser Germany sells the MBRF10H100 for 1.48€
https://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail.../MBRF10H100-E3-45?qs=cfR2GKjf2Rmfh8eE2yEj/w==

They are fully insulated, this reduces the chance short-circuit accidents.

I hve not used the alternatives but the datasheet numbers look good, on paper at least.


----------



## hpsxrb

b0bb said:


> Mouser Germany sells the MBRF10H100 for 1.48€
> https://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/Vishay-Semiconductors/MBRF10H100-E3-45?qs=cfR2GKjf2Rmfh8eE2yEj/w==
> 
> They are fully insulated, this reduces the chance short-circuit accidents.
> ...


b0bb but these are not Silicon Carbide Schottky (these are the ones mentioned earlier in the LKS update)!


----------



## b0bb (May 30, 2020)

hpsxrb said:


> b0bb but these are not Silicon Carbide Schottky (these are the ones mentioned earlier in the LKS update)!



Never tried the SiC diodes, not yet available when I made the mod.

Not sure about why you are excited over the SiC diodes.
SiC leaks more current, 25X worse (105μA vs 4.5μA). This is a path for noise, and the LKS004 is very sensitive.

To put things in perspective, the fullscale (FS) current  output of the LKS004 is 60mA or 60000μA
105uA is 55dB below FS  (-55dBFS)
4.5uA is 83.5dB below FS (-83.5dBFS)

There is a 28.5dB difference in the noise profile, the best case noise performance of the ES9038 is -135 dBFS
That is a significant chunk of the noise headroom gone if you use the noisy SiC diodes.


SiC drops more voltage, 2X worse (1.45V vs 0.77V) higher, the voltage regulator loses working headroom.
On the diode setup on LKS004, you lose 2.9V on SiC and that is 20% of the supply voltage vs 10% (1.44V)

Regular 10H100  Schottky





STPSC8065 SiC Schottky


----------



## tdrood

b0bb said:


> Never tried the SiC diodes, not yet available when I made the mod.
> 
> Not sure about why you are excited over the SiC diodes.
> SiC leaks more current, 25X worse (105μA vs 4.5μA). This is a path for noise, and the LKS004 is very sensitive.
> ...


b0bb, I have a question for you related to the data in this post... the 10H100 table lists only the maxima for each parameter while the 8065 table includes a min, max and typ (ok, so there are no values in the min cells, so scratch the min). I guess you have to default to the worst case (max) when doing this evaluation, but I am curious if the typical values have any merit/meaning.  In my world, data must be statistically significant to a 99% probability/95% confidence, (to which we add an additional 50% margin) but I design structural repairs for commercial aircraft, so lives are literally at stake and typical values are, therefore, useless to me.  But, that may not be the case here(?), and the typical values may be more realistic, real world values - hence my question.  To be clear, I guess the question is, generally speaking, do the ‘typ’ values have any merit?

But I digress... I see that the reverse current in the H100 is up to 6,000 microA (6.0mA) @ 125C - a very sharp rise over the 25C value. In fact, it is an order of magnitude greater than the 8065@150C (0.75mA).  Based on the slope of that curve, one would rightly exect the H100 values to be significantly higher still at 150C, even if that rise is linear.  I don’t know what the actual service temps of these devices are in our LKS004s, but it does seem conceivable that the reverse current may actually be better in the 8065 devices(?), unless the curve on the H100 is very non linear and/or the operating temps are low. That said, the data definitely favors the H100 for fwd voltage drop, regardless of temp. I am keen to hear your comments regarding the reverse current data. 

I really appreciate your thoughtful - and knowledgeable - comments on this thread. As I alluded above, I am an aerospace structures engineer; I am an electronics hobbies wannabe at best, and you have taught me a LOT, thank you!!

Peace,

T


----------



## b0bb (May 30, 2020)

tdrood said:


> b0bb, I have a question for you related to the data in this post... the 10H100 table lists only the maxima for each parameter while the 8065 table includes a min, max and typ (ok, so there are no values in the min cells, so scratch the min). I guess you have to default to the worst case (max) when doing this evaluation, but I am curious if the typical values have any merit/meaning.  In my world, data must be statistically significant to a 99% probability/95% confidence, (to which we add an additional 50% margin) but I design structural repairs for commercial aircraft, so lives are literally at stake and typical values are, therefore, useless to me.  But, that may not be the case here(?), and the typical values may be more realistic, real world values - hence my question.  To be clear, I guess the question is, generally speaking, do the ‘typ’ values have any merit?
> 
> But I digress... I see that the reverse current in the H100 is up to 6,000 microA (6.0mA) @ 125C - a very sharp rise over the 25C value. In fact, it is an order of magnitude greater than the 8065@150C (0.75mA).  Based on the slope of that curve, one would rightly exect the H100 values to be significantly higher still at 150C, even if that rise is linear.  I don’t know what the actual service temps of these devices are in our LKS004s, but it does seem conceivable that the reverse current may actually be better in the 8065 devices(?), unless the curve on the H100 is very non linear and/or the operating temps are low. That said, the data definitely favors the H100 for fwd voltage drop, regardless of temp. I am keen to hear your comments regarding the reverse current data.
> 
> ...


The relationship is highly exponential as shown in the picture below.
The 10H100 runs very cool approx 35C

This came from an appnote from ST
https://www.st.com/resource/en/appl...osses-in-a-power-diode-stmicroelectronics.pdf



Tj = 35

For the 10H100
Tjref2-Tjref1 = 100
c = 0.0719
Ir = 9.24uA

For STPSC8065 SiC Schottky
Tjref2-Tjref1 = 125
c = 0.0157
Ir = 122.9uA

SiC Schottky is 13.3x worse @35C

In practice the SiC will run hotter given 2x the voltage drop it will run hotter and with a consequent increase in leakage current.
At 45C, leakage increases to 144uA, this makes it 15.6x worse than the conventional silicon schottky diode.

This is -52dBFS, assuming the voltage regulator reduces noise by 30dB, the net SNR would be 82dB.
This is about as good as 1980's era DACs. Good 16bit DACs are capable of 90dB SNR.

A 24bit DAC has a theoretical SNR of 144dB.


----------



## b0bb (May 30, 2020)

tdrood said:


> To be clear, I guess the question is, generally speaking, do the ‘typ’ values have any merit?


Max values are guaranteed by the manufacturer, typ values are not.


----------



## b0bb

Further analysis of the reverse leakage current behavior Ir of the STPSC8065 SiC Schottky

This device is designed for high voltage applications and as such the specification data is done at the voltage.
The LKS004 operated at 30V, the Vishay 10H100 is a device specified to work at 100V.

ST suggests in their datasheet that the leakage current drops if the voltage across the device is reduced.
As this info is presented as "typical" behavior, this means the official maximum still applies as far as acceptable performance.






Ir for the device at 25C and 100V could be as low 0.8uA

However this is just an educated guess, this presents an alternative interpretation to those dead keen on adding SiC rectifiers to their LKS004.

However based on the official numbers, one could turn the LKS004 into a 1980's style DAC.


----------



## tdrood

Thanks b0bb - sounds like bottom line is use the mfg max values (or min, whichever critical to your parameter/application) unless you want to do a lot of testing...


----------



## b0bb

tdrood said:


> Thanks b0bb - sounds like bottom line is use the mfg max values (or min, whichever critical to your parameter/application) unless you want to do a lot of testing...


Yes.

Given the 50:1 spread of the Ir parameter, it could mean one may have to sort from a pool of 1000pcs instead of 100pcs to get the 8 lowest noise devices if one goes down the DIY route.
That assumes the person has constructed a measurement setup that can apply a 8-10ms reverse voltage pulse and accurately measure the leakage current in the nano ampere range.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Good morning guys. If the usb cable is connected and the lks is playing but this appears on the screen (... see image ...), does it mean that the Amanero board is broken ...?


----------



## hpsxrb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Good morning guys. If the usb cable is connected and the lks is playing but this appears on the screen (... see image ...), does it mean that the Amanero board is broken ...?


The DPLL you can use is dependent on the quality of the source (PC set, USB cable, etc.).
A smaller DPLL implies a better quality source, so if you reduce the DPLL too much, the LKS is unlocked because the source does not have the quality required for that DPLL.
A higher DPLL (so that the LKS is locked) is a lower quality source.
If you can adjust the DPLL so that the LKS is locked then this means (in principle) that the problem is not with the LKS (nor with the Amanero board).
If anyone has a better explanation, help is welcome.


----------



## Gilberto 62 (Jun 1, 2020)

It is true...! Now, I have changed the font (... before it was a very normal flac ...) and now I have put a dsd and yes, everything is fine ... Thanks "hpsxrb" for your valuable help ...


----------



## VerloK (Jun 1, 2020)

oldearwax said:


> From what I've read, USB cable is a transmission line: the impedance (sqrt(L/C)) has to be 90 Ohm
> for the differential data to be captured correctly.
> I can't find the L and C spec on the soldicoreaudio webpage.




I built my own USB cable like Kimber Cable does.
I dont think it has 90ohm but it sounds phenomenal.
How can u measure that?


Regards


----------



## Gilberto 62

Well speaking of cables, I have problems with the Audiquest Diamond 5 meters again. Yesterday, after a few days of peace and quiet, he suddenly cut the playback again, and from there it was no longer normal. Today, I have been testing again for six hours and after removing and replacing the Diamond and the stock cable a million times, there is something about the Diamond that creates problems. I think that, as you have told me, those 5 meters are problematic and I will have to adopt another solution since I need, more or less, that distance because between my pc and the audio equipment there are about four meters. Today, to do the tests with the stock cable, I had to carry the LKS next to the PC and use a deck as a preamplifier.
     And I thought that my problems were already over ....!


----------



## oldearwax

VerloK said:


> I built my own USB cable like Kimber Cable does.
> I dont think it has 90ohm but it sounds phenomenal.
> How can u measure that?


Send a pulse down the cable and measure the degree of reflection .. ...from what I've read from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-domain_reflectometer

"High-speed USB" cable single-ended impedance is specified to be 45R.
I don't think you can measure characteristic impedance of cables using a ohmmeter.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 1, 2020)

oldearwax said:


> Send a pulse down the cable and measure the degree of reflection .. ...from what I've read from
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-domain_reflectometer
> 
> "High-speed USB" cable single-ended impedance is specified to be 45R.
> I don't think you can measure characteristic impedance of cables using a ohmmeter.


That is correct.
The device analyzes the forward pulse and reflected pulse and superimposes the 2 traces to form an eye diagram.

The intersection of the eye and its size and shape  indicates the quality of the signal, bigger is better.

Notice the eye area of the 5m cable is much smaller.
In practice this translates to a less reliable connection.




The differential characteristic impedance is 90ohm.
If the trace touches the red area the compliance test fails.

Look what happens when the cable is not 90 ohms, this is a non compliant USB cable.


----------



## AuxInput (Jun 2, 2020)

Well, after 3 weeks of burn in, my LKS Dac just never got there. The biggest problem was the upper mids had a glare.

I had a suspicion of the problem – KZ caps in the post-regulator section for digital power supplies. So I pulled them out and put in some low impedance 1000uf 25V Panasonic FR caps I had bought for a Krell project (ultra low impedance at 18 mOhms - Digikey part # P14425-ND).  I put in a Nichicon KL cap for the electroyltic 100uf/25V next to one of the bigger caps, but I'm not really concerned about this because the 100uf is just there to stabalize the ground pin of the regulator.

Well, immediately I could tell a huge difference, after only 20 minutes of warmup and playing time. The upper midrange glare is gone and the bass actually hits harder and is stronger. The high frequencies have more air and resolution. The overall depth of the sound is significantly better. Pretty much solved my problems.  It's been 7 days burning in now and it sounds excellent.  The resolution of the tones is much higher and much more realistic. No extreme brightness or harsh click type sounds like with the KZ.

It could be that the higher impedance of the KZ audio caps does not work in this position or it could be that I had 25V KZ caps (25V version sounds bad). In either case, I think that these KZ caps have no business in a digital power supply anywhere.  That being said, I think the KZ caps sound excellent when in an analog circuit.


----------



## hpsxrb (Jun 6, 2020)

Can someone help me with HQPlayer settings to be able to upsampling to DSD128 / 256, I can only get PCM and only once I got DSD but I lost the setup (I looked on the internet but there are so many more recommended settings, the most being the most referring to an older version of HQPlayer).
These are the setups that I have at the moment while I am not a rocket scientist. Thank you in advance.





It was only today that I realized that after changing the settings in HQPlayer, it is necessary to leave the program for them to take effect.


----------



## b0bb

hpsxrb said:


> Can someone help me with HQPlayer settings to be able to upsampling to DSD128 / 256, I can only get PCM and only once I got DSD but I lost the setup (I looked on the internet but there are so many more recommended settings, the most being the most referring to an older version of HQPlayer).
> These are the setups that I have at the moment while I am not a rocket scientist. Thank you in advance.
> 
> It was only today that I realized that after changing the settings in HQPlayer, it is necessary to leave the program for them to take effect.



Yes, exit and restart

Change the following
 SDM Defaults  box:  Set Bit rate (/ limit)  to 44k x256.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Good afternoon sirs.  Sorry for my intrusion but I would like to ask a somewhat unusual question: would it be possible to cut a five-meter usb cable and leave it one meter long ...?


----------



## b0bb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Good afternoon sirs.  Sorry for my intrusion but I would like to ask a somewhat unusual question: would it be possible to cut a five-meter usb cable and leave it one meter long ...?


Possible but not recommended.

Cutting the cable and adding a new connector requires careful preparation of the cable to avoid the impedance mismatch problems described a few posts above.
The new connection should be tested for proper operation using an instrument like a TDR mentioned above.

TDRs are not common in ordinary electronics repair shops.

You will be better served getting a shorter cable instead.


----------



## Gilberto 62

b0bb said:


> Possible but not recommended.
> 
> Cutting the cable and adding a new connector requires careful preparation of the cable to avoid the impedance mismatch problems described a few posts above.
> The new connection should be tested for proper operation using an instrument like a TDR mentioned above.
> ...


Thank you very much, b0bb....


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb,
could you explain me a conception of inner powering the Amanero board? What are the benefits of it?
If I understand correctly a USB source (PC/RPI/SOTM etc) ground is connected to the LKS 004 ground via the Amanero' power supply (by secondary winding of the analog toroidal transformer). Am I right? I wonder if an external, let's say by the Usbridge Signature with Shanti, power supply will not be better? 
The ground of the USB source and the LKS 004 won't be connected, isn't it a huge benefit? What do you think? 

Thanks.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> could you explain me a conception of inner powering the Amanero board? What are the benefits of it?
> If I understand correctly a USB source (PC/RPI/SOTM etc) ground is connected to the LKS 004 ground via the Amanero' power supply (by secondary winding of the analog toroidal transformer). Am I right? I wonder if an external, let's say by the Usbridge Signature with Shanti, power supply will not be better?
> The ground of the USB source and the LKS 004 won't be connected, isn't it a huge benefit? What do you think?
> ...



The internal power supply places the voltage regulator as close to the USB board as possible, this gives the best performance.
External power supplies are not as good as the regulator is inside the external supply and quite far away.

The regulator senses the output voltage and corrects for any voltage changes via negative feedback, the closer it is the load the better the performance.
This is the reason I avoid using external power supplies.

The Amanero USB power supply ground is not connected to the LKS supply ground, if you look carefully you will see LKS adds  insulating tape around the USB socket to prevent the USB ground from connecting to the metal part of the LKS case.

The USB ground is connected to the computer/sotm etc.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Good morning to everybody. "b0bb", please, thanks to all of you and your valuable advice, I can enjoy my music uploaded to DSD512, but soon I have to make a decision regarding a very simple but slightly uncomfortable issue due to situation and ergonomics. It is that, as all of you had told me from the beginning, the computer usb cable to LKS should be "THE SHORTEST POSSIBLE", because experience has shown me that you cannot work with a 5 meter cable long because it will only bring problems.
     So, I am considering buying a laptop to have it next to the LKS and that is my question, what requirements should that laptop have to power excessively and without any effort or overload to the dac ...?
     The other option is to bring my pc closer to my system, but it will be somewhat uncomfortable visually, physically, etc.
     Thanks for any feedback. Greetings to all of you ....


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> The internal power supply places the voltage regulator as close to the USB board as possible, this gives the best performance.
> External power supplies are not as good as the regulator is inside the external supply and quite far away.
> 
> The regulator senses the output voltage and corrects for any voltage changes via negative feedback, the closer it is the load the better the performance.
> ...



Ok, now I see that the internal solution is the best one. Isn't a problem that it's powered by the same toroidal transformer as analog part of the LKS 004?


----------



## MartinWT

Gilberto 62 said:


> So, I am considering buying a laptop to have it next to the LKS and that is my question, what requirements should that laptop have to power excessively and without any effort or overload to the dac ...?



You would be better off buying a streamer like the Pro-Ject Streambox, keeping your current PC to control it but not carrying the music stream.

That way, you have a very short path to the DAC while controlling the music from your seat.


----------



## piaseczek

Gents,
Is it still the best power supply for the upgraded amanero board?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HIFI-LT304...876512?hash=item1ec1871da0:g:QdIAAOSwCU1YomOh


----------



## piaseczek

New (?) clocks:
https://www.idt.com/us/en/products/clocks-timing/femtoclock-low-phase-noise-frequency-synthesizers

Probably used in the newest amanero board and in the usb100:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/355329-lks-audio-usb-100-interface.html


----------



## oldearwax

Gilberto 62 said:


> Good morning to everybody. "b0bb", please, thanks to all of you and your valuable advice, I can enjoy my music uploaded to DSD512, but soon I have to make a decision regarding a very simple but slightly uncomfortable issue due to situation and ergonomics. It is that, as all of you had told me from the beginning, the computer usb cable to LKS should be "THE SHORTEST POSSIBLE", because experience has shown me that you cannot work with a 5 meter cable long because it will only bring problems.
> So, I am considering buying a laptop to have it next to the LKS and that is my question, what requirements should that laptop have to power excessively and without any effort or overload to the dac ...?
> The other option is to bring my pc closer to my system, but it will be somewhat uncomfortable visually, physically, etc.



USB is differential signaling,
but it also has a max common mode voltage range of 0.5V.

That means if your computer and LKS local grounds have
a difference of more than 0.5V, usb transmission will fail.

The ground difference may be a result of
your computer and LKS are plugged into different outlets
that are far apart in your house.

Possible solution: plug LKS and PC into
the same power strip ?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Ok, now I see that the internal solution is the best one. Isn't a problem that it's powered by the same toroidal transformer as analog ...



Use a separate transformer to power the USB board if you want to improve things






[/QUOTE]


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Gents,
> Is it still the best power supply for the upgraded amanero board?
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/HIFI-LT304...876512?hash=item1ec1871da0:g:QdIAAOSwCU1YomOh


I have 2 of those one on the 004 and the other on the 003.
One of the first things I did when I got the DACs was to replace the USB interface and the power supply


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> New (?) clocks:
> https://www.idt.com/us/en/products/clocks-timing/femtoclock-low-phase-noise-frequency-synthesizers


Frequency Synthesizer is another name for a DPLL, those things are a compromise as they rely on negative feedback to control  frequency stability, there is one in the 004, do not add a second one.

Use a conventional Crystal XO.



piaseczek said:


> Probably used in the newest amanero board and in the usb100:
> https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/355329-lks-audio-usb-100-interface.html


Very poorly made, the left crystal is not soldered properly. It not completely seated on the board when it was soldered.
Looks like some no-name brand with a sticker with "femto" printed on it. The glue on the sticker is starting to melt and it is in the process of falling off


----------



## AuxInput

FYI, I have the same stickered clocks on my Amenero board in the LKS DAC.  They are labeled "MUSETEC AUDIO".


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Use a separate transformer to power the USB board if you want to improve things


[/QUOTE]

Thank you b0bb, I always appreciate your advices.

Could you describe the sonic improvement after adding the transformer for the amanero board? Is it as important as better (lt3042) power supply board?


----------



## b0bb

Thank you b0bb, I always appreciate your advices.

Could you describe the sonic improvement after adding the transformer for the amanero board? Is it as important as better (lt3042) power supply board?
[/QUOTE]
Both mods are important, the transformer costs 10USD so consider doing both mods.
https://www.antekinc.com/an-0107-10va-7v-transformer/

The improvement is similar to using an external USB interface like the Singxer SU-1, better definition of the high frequencies, better presentation of vocals and such.

With both mods, there is not much need for the SU-1, if the components on the LT3042 board are modded then this combo is actually better than the SU-1, the Amanero with the latest firmware does everything the SU-1 can do.

Check that your board is the enhanced one with the Crystek XOs  like the picture below.


----------



## b0bb

Gilberto 62 said:


> So, I am considering buying a laptop to have it next to the LKS and that is my question, what requirements should that laptop have to power excessively and without any effort or overload to the dac ...?



Take a look at the Intel NUC, small, fits in the palm of your hand, basically a laptop without a screen or keyboard.
A suitable model is the NUC10i3 or NUC10i5, the screen and keyboard can be put away when not in use.
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/nuc/mini-pcs.html

I have an older model running the HQPlayer NAA


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Check that your board is the enhanced one with the Crystek XOs  like the picture below.



Yes, I have the amanero with the crysteks. 
Where is the optimal placement of the additional transformer for the amanero? Close to the amanero or close to the LKS' toroids?


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Take a look at the Intel NUC, small, fits in the palm of your hand, basically a laptop without a screen or keyboard.
> A suitable model is the NUC10i3 or NUC10i5, the screen and keyboard can be put away when not in use.
> https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/nuc/mini-pcs.html
> 
> I have an older model running the HQPlayer NAA



 I'm using the Celeron based NUC with the BW01 setting without any clicks. Software is the RT daphile. It works great but I will try the usbridge signature soon - just for the comparison and out of curiosity.


----------



## Gilberto 62

b0bb, and to all of you, thank you very much for lighting my dark and tortuous path ...


----------



## hpsxrb (Jun 14, 2020)

Please b0bb,
What is your processor ("8core@5GHz") and GPU to upsample HQPlayer to DSD512 ?
From what I read processors without support for AVX512 then it is difficult DSD512.
HQPlayer has a parameter to indicate the "DAC bits". In the case of LKS004 are 24 correct?
Thank you


----------



## b0bb

hpsxrb said:


> Please b0bb,
> What is your processor ("8core@5GHz") and GPU to upsample HQPlayer to DSD512 ?
> From what I read processors without support for AVX512 then it is difficult DSD512.
> HQPlayer has a parameter to indicate the "DAC bits". In the case of LKS004 are 24 correct?
> Thank you


AVX required AVX-512 is not necessary
I am using this processor
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/processors/core/i9-processors/i9-9900ks.html

I am using this GPU
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/titan/titan-v/

Set DAC bits to zero, this tells HQplayer to use its internal defaults.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Yes, I have the amanero with the crysteks.
> Where is the optimal placement of the additional transformer for the amanero? Close to the amanero or close to the LKS' toroids?


I mounted it on the front right corner, the screw also holds the foot for the case to the body.


----------



## hpsxrb (Jun 17, 2020)

Deleted


----------



## Gilberto 62

Hello everyone. Well, I am working with Foobar and upsampling to dsd512 and, little by little, since I can only dedicate myself to my work holidays, I am progressing. The point is that for this mode (... upsampling dsd512 ...), there is a Foobar tutorial for fools that I am applying, but sometimes I do not know if I am using the most appropriate configuration for our beloved LKS and said upsampling. I pass the link to you and, please, some of you could advise me which of the ways that in that tutorial exposes, would be the most correct for that upsampling of all my music to dsd512. I think it is mode 3, but sometimes I have a little scare or surprise. Well, sorry for such a simple matter but a confirmation or correction by you in the proper configuration would be very helpful. Thank you very much to all.

https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.co...-part-3-new-experimental-sacd-plugin-v-0-9-x/


----------



## oldearwax (Jun 20, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Hello everyone. Well, I am working with Foobar and upsampling to dsd512 and, little by little, since I can only dedicate myself to my work holidays, I am progressing. The point is that for this mode (... upsampling dsd512 ...), there is a Foobar tutorial for fools that I am applying, but sometimes I do not know if I am using the most appropriate configuration for our beloved LKS and said upsampling. I pass the link to you and, please, some of you could advise me which of the ways that in that tutorial exposes, would be the most correct for that upsampling of all my music to dsd512. I think it is mode 3, but sometimes I have a little scare or surprise. Well, sorry for such a simple matter but a confirmation or correction by you in the proper configuration would be very helpful. Thank you very much to all.
> 
> https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.co...-part-3-new-experimental-sacd-plugin-v-0-9-x/


If you have DsD/DSF format files on your computer, use mode 1 and 2.
If you have wav (pcm) format and  would like your music to play as DSD, use mode 3;
this is computing intensive !!

If your computer is not up to par for on-the-fly conversion in mode 3, you can also
convert wav to dsd format offline using other tools like:
https://www.tascam.eu/en/hr-editor.html
(I don't think Tascam is dsd512 capable ??).


----------



## Gilberto 62

Thank you very much "Oldearwax". Yes, I was using mode 3 as you tell me, but I needed confirmation that I was doing the right thing. Thank you...


----------



## piaseczek

B0bb,
I've noticed the interesting EMI (only) filter:
https://www.schaffner.com/product-storage/datasheets/fn-343/
Do you think that it's worth to try such a 10A filter for the separeted audio power line? only the amplifier and the LKS would be connected, no SMPS.
The filtration is very gentle.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> I've noticed the interesting EMI (only) filter:
> https://www.schaffner.com/product-storage/datasheets/fn-343/
> Do you think that it's worth to try such a 10A filter for the separeted audio power line? only the amplifier and the LKS would be connected, no SMPS.
> The filtration is very gentle.


Get 2 of them, one for the Analog transformer and the other for the Digital transformer

The performance of the filters differ for the different models.
Use the 1A unit (FN 343-1-05) for the Analog side
Use the 3A model (FN 343-3-05 ) for the Digital side

Use it for on the LKS only not the power amp,even  10A may be too restrictive on the amp it may cause the a loss of dynamics and punch.


----------



## 347strokin

Has anyone had experience with a stock vs Rick Schultz modified LKS DA 004?  ( http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/LKS_Mods.html)

I haven't been able to find any reviews/comparisons.


----------



## Xoverman

Hi everyone, it's good to be back  
Great that we seem to have a nother ultra modder in our rows.
My next Project will be tacking both transformers out of the 004. The first step is allredy taken be removing the digital transformer out of the chassis. I took the transformer out, and placed a filter just on the primary side of the digital transformer. These two changes already gave me lots more space and depths. So next step is to take the analog transformer out of the chassis.
If the works fine, I'll try external rectifekation and basic filtering to keep high current ripple out of the DAC.

@ b0bb.   Can you give me the part number of the ultra low leakage Tantal you used in 003 ?

@ AuxInput.  &     b0bb.    Do you guys know if the analog power supply is a class A ( shunt) power supply ? 
                                              Do's it have 2x +/- 15V ?    Digital PS has 6 input pins ( 3x voltage)  but 4 rectifier's. ???
Dose anyone have a basic schematic or block diagram of the PS's.

Cheers from Germany


----------



## Gilberto 62

Hello guys. I want to tell you about a little experiment that I have done. It is nonsense with little importance and without any technical contribution or great knowledge such as the high-level comments that run here, but I am excited to explain it to you, fellow owners of our beloved LKS.
      I have a file from a Johnny Guitar Watson album, "Gettin down with" with beautiful songs on, (... just ...), 16-44 cd quality, which I play beautifully on dsd512. Well, I bought the vinyl from that album in mint quality, reproduced on my Technics sl1200 with an Ortofon 2M Black capsule and well, I don't know what to tell you ... I really like vinyl, that sweet, silky veil, but folks, this LKS is something special, it sounds so good ...! I do the comparisons, vinyl, dac, vinyl, dac and ... buffff ...! This dac sounds with a very special authority, it is as if he were saying: "... hey, watch out, here I come ..." A greeting to everyone ...


----------



## JBP3

Gilberto 62 said:


> Hello guys. I want to tell you about a little experiment that I have done. It is nonsense with little importance and without any technical contribution or great knowledge such as the high-level comments that run here, but I am excited to explain it to you, fellow owners of our beloved LKS.
> I have a file from a Johnny Guitar Watson album, "Gettin down with" with beautiful songs on, (... just ...), 16-44 cd quality, which I play beautifully on dsd512. Well, I bought the vinyl from that album in mint quality, reproduced on my Technics sl1200 with an Ortofon 2M Black capsule and well, I don't know what to tell you ... I really like vinyl, that sweet, silky veil, but folks, this LKS is something special, it sounds so good ...! I do the comparisons, vinyl, dac, vinyl, dac and ... buffff ...! This dac sounds with a very special authority, it is as if he were saying: "... hey, watch out, here I come ..." A greeting to everyone ...



hi Gilberto 62, thank you so much for this contribution! Your vinyl set up sounds very nice, something I wouldn’t mind having myself for sure. So it’s nice to hear CD upsampled and played on the LPS is just as nice.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> @ b0bb.   Can you give me the part number of the ultra low leakage Tantal you used in 003 ?


If you mean the yellow one, it is a solid tantalum bead.
Those are becoming hard to find, the one from Mouser may fit the bill, but you have to check the voltages on the 004,Solid Tantalums have very low tolerance for overvoltage.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...=sGAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22U82yln1BPhnoXNuC395sQM=


> @ AuxInput.  &     b0bb.    Do you guys know if the analog power supply is a class A ( shunt) power supply ?


It is a series-shunt arrangement, I think you helped repair another member's 004 when the current sense resistor and voltage reference burnt out


----------



## Xoverman

Hey b0bb tanks for the fast answer. 
So on the analog section I soppos the two 15V transformer winding's go each to a rectifier. 
After the rectifier ground is tied together, and everything is filtered by the two big Mundorf camp's.
After that comes the series-shunt arrangement.
What is the 6,5V for?    DAC analog side? 

And if you can, please share your knolage about the Digital side with us


----------



## b0bb (Jul 18, 2020)

Xoverman said:


> What is the 6,5V for?    DAC analog side?
> And if you can, please share your knolage about the Digital side with us


Trace the feed going to the LT1963, it is the analog first stage regulator for the 9038 chips
As there several versions of the board you will have to check yours

The 6.5V is likely the source for the LT1963


----------



## Xoverman

hi Gilberto 62, 
I have made the same experience, it's very hard to find a vinyl setup that can compete with 004.
Especially when it's heavily  tweaked.


----------



## Xoverman

After taking the digital transformer out of the DAC chassis a couple of months ago, I decided to do the same with the analog transformers yesterday. I also installed a audio gread filter from "Thel audio" in front (primary) of the transformer, just as I did in front of the digital transformer.

http://www.thel-audioworld.de/module/Netzfilter/Netzfilter.htm

That again brings great sonic impact, just as I expected itwould. Everything sounds more real. I'm very happy with the result.
But there seems to be a small tradeoff. Bass extension and transients suffered just a little bit. I put a WIMA 0,47uF between filter and transformer. That almost solved the transient response problem, but bass is still a little bit degraded.
On the other side I have the impression, that the bass is more transparent and tighter. So maby because bass is tighter and more transparent I get the illusion that it is lacking a little bit. 
I guess I'll play around with the grounds some more.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Well, that comparison, which I have also done with my CD player, s (Denon dcd2000) and where the LKS sounds a little better, just a little, is with the factory dac, without any upgrade or tuning because I did not I know what a screwdriver or a spanner is for ... I have only connected to the dac some Furutech rca and electrical connection cables and a 1 meter IFI Mercury 3.0 usb cable, the latter advised by my appreciated "hpsxrb". ... I think it is the least I can do, because the LKS deserves it. Maybe someday, if someone recommends me a recognized professional, I decide to send my dac to do those impressive things that I see here, in the forum, of people with impressive knowledge and experience ...


----------



## iFi audio

Gilberto 62 said:


> a 1 meter IFI Mercury 3.0 usb cable



If I may ask, how does it work for you?


----------



## Gilberto 62

Hi. Well, I can only say that very well, I am very satisfied with the result of this cable, the IFI Mercury usb 3.0 (version 2.0). At last, I can have the pleasure of savoring the delights of LKS in music playback. I previously had an Audioquest Diamond which, for me, was an absolute failure ...


----------



## iFi audio

Gilberto 62 said:


> Hi. Well, I can only say that very well, I am very satisfied with the result of this cable, the IFI Mercury usb 3.0 (version 2.0). At last, I can have the pleasure of savoring the delights of LKS in music playback. I previously had an Audioquest Diamond which, for me, was an absolute failure ...



I'm happy to hear that it did what it supposed to for your setup   

And what was off with that AQ Diamond? It's said to be good

Apologies for a slight derail!


----------



## Gilberto 62

Well, in principle, I bought the Audioquest Diamond 5 meters because I needed that cable length because of the distance I had between my pc and the dac. Here, in this forum, colleagues with experience and knowledge told me that this cable distance (... 5 m ...) was not recommended and it seems that this was the reason for the disaster. Everything was cuts, noises, clicks, player blocked, frozen, dead ... a total failure. After multiple tests, trials and experiments on my part, I clearly saw that the problem was in the cable, something that today is truly incredible for me because it was an expensive and recognized cable and even though it had 5 meters it was sold to function properly. Well, the cable went back to the store and there it worked fine ... It went back to my house and sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. Tired and fed up with this, I decided to follow the advice of the forum and I brought my pc close to the dac and I bought the IFI Mercury cable that was recommended to me by the colleague "hpsxrb", who had read several rewievs about this cable in which they said very good things about he. And so it has been ...! I can play all my digital files upsampling to dsd512 and with the DPLL filter at 8 and, when the dac is already warm, going down, 7, 6 ... 2 ... A delight ...! Think that this is my first dac and my entry into the world of digital reproduction and my problems and disappointments were so many and so unpleasant for a couple of months that, when I read the opinions of others here, I felt envy and great Sadness at my failure that I got to thinking about selling the dac on eBay and giving up on all of this. Finally, now and thanks to the advice and recommendations of the colleagues in this forum, I can be happy ... very happy ...!


----------



## oldearwax

Gilberto 62 said:


> Well, in principle, I bought the Audioquest Diamond 5 meters because I needed that cable length because of the distance I had between my pc and the dac.


When you had problem a month ago,
were your computer and LKS  plugged into different power outlets
that are far apart in your house ?


----------



## iFi audio

Gilberto 62 said:


> Well, in principle, I bought the Audioquest Diamond 5 meters because I needed that cable length because of the distance I had between my pc and the dac. Here, in this forum, colleagues with experience and knowledge told me that this cable distance (... 5 m ...) was not recommended and it seems that this was the reason for the disaster. Everything was cuts, noises, clicks, player blocked, frozen, dead ... a total failure. After multiple tests, trials and experiments on my part, I clearly saw that the problem was in the cable, something that today is truly incredible for me because it was an expensive and recognized cable and even though it had 5 meters it was sold to function properly. Well, the cable went back to the store and there it worked fine ... It went back to my house and sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. Tired and fed up with this, I decided to follow the advice of the forum and I brought my pc close to the dac and I bought the IFI Mercury cable that was recommended to me by the colleague "hpsxrb", who had read several rewievs about this cable in which they said very good things about he. And so it has been ...! I can play all my digital files upsampling to dsd512 and with the DPLL filter at 8 and, when the dac is already warm, going down, 7, 6 ... 2 ... A delight ...! Think that this is my first dac and my entry into the world of digital reproduction and my problems and disappointments were so many and so unpleasant for a couple of months that, when I read the opinions of others here, I felt envy and great Sadness at my failure that I got to thinking about selling the dac on eBay and giving up on all of this. Finally, now and thanks to the advice and recommendations of the colleagues in this forum, I can be happy ... very happy ...!



That's quite the story, much appreciated. But one thing I'll say though, 5m USB connections can cause various unpleasantries. And most importantly, it's great to read that you managed to overcome challenges and be happy with what you have. After frustrations there has to come a day when everything starts to work as intended. Thanks again


----------



## Gilberto 62

Oldearwax, you ask me how the dac and the pc were connected to the mains. Well, among the multiple and disappointing tests I did, yes, I also tried that detail, I connected PC and dac in different sockets, in the same, near, far ... I did so many tests ... There came a time, that at I was ashamed to write here, in the forum, because it only explained problems, problems and more problems. I felt like the most incapable, awkward, and ignorant person of all who have written here. I seriously thought about taking the dac out of my house and forgetting about it, with sadness and anger. Finally, as I was already advised from the beginning, here in the forum, regarding that problematic cable distance (... 5 m ...), I decided as a last resort before throwing it all away, bringing the PC closer to the dac and try the IFI Mercury (... 1m ...), cable recommended by the super friendly and patient partner of the "hpsxrb" forum. And end of the problem ...!


----------



## iFi audio

Gilberto 62 said:


> There came a time, that at I was ashamed to write here, in the forum, because it only explained problems, problems and more problems. I felt like the most incapable, awkward, and ignorant person of all who have written here



It's all good, really. This hobby can and often is challenging, and some people have more problems with it than others. If in doubt or with any issues, fire away and the community will help. It's far better to ask than be left unhappy. Please trust me, I've been there myself. Who hasn't?


----------



## Xoverman

this is the way to heaven


----------



## iFi audio

Xoverman said:


> this is the way to heaven



And a way full of boxes it is 

What's the mains supply you intend to use?


----------



## Xoverman

iFi audio said:


> And a way full of boxes it is
> 
> What's the mains supply you intend to use?


Ist my DIY 230v wall outlet


----------



## iFi audio

Xoverman said:


> Ist my DIY 230v wall outlet



Have you tried it yet  ?


----------



## Xoverman

iFi audio said:


> Have you tried it yet  ?


Yes of course, I'm using it now for about 1/4 of a year.


----------



## Xoverman

Here is the explanation for my extraordinary USB bus   :

The PC is being supplied by an extra mains cable comming directly from the main house mains distribution unit. ( where power comes into the house). In front of the PC is is a strong filter, so that the PC dosn't polut the house mains. 

The hifi system has it's own three mains cable comming directly from the house mains distribution unit, plus  5x 1.5mmq for grounding.

Because I have found out that the singxer SU-6 USB / HDMI isolation is ok, but not exelent, I decided to ti it to hifi mains GND using the case ( chassis of the ifi micro USB. 

The singxer UIP-1 is for isolating the  PC GND from the hifi GND. 

Of course there are a lot of boxes, but it's worth it.


----------



## iFi audio

Xoverman said:


> Here is the explanation for my extraordinary USB bus   :
> 
> The PC is being supplied by an extra mains cable comming directly from the main house mains distribution unit. ( where power comes into the house). In front of the PC is is a strong filter, so that the PC dosn't polut the house mains.
> 
> ...



Looks like a serious operation and it's good to know that you have some use of our micro iUSB 

But seeing what you did, power is important and digital devices benefit it it's clean.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Use a separate transformer to power the USB board if you want to improve things


[/QUOTE]
Hi, b0bb
is the transformer shielded?


----------



## Xoverman

AuxInput said:


> LKS CLOCK IMPRESSIONS
> 
> Crystek 575 – I only used this with the LKS as “purely stock”.  Of course, this presented the expected result.  Extremely clean, but very forward in the upper mids (can come across as a glare).  Stock DAC also did not have the high frequency response and realism.  Lacked the bass punch/strength that I wanted.
> 
> ...


Two days ago I switched my oscillator from Crystek 950X to Accusilicon AS318-B-100.
After two days of burn in, I can confirm the impression AuxInput made with his mod. 
Here is my first impression  
Low Middrange ( Grundton ) is stronger witch seems to give more dynamics.
Bass indeed has a little more slam, but more important, is more transparent and tighter.
At first I thought treble ( highs)  and aerines is less, but that's not the case.  It's just cleaner.
But that's just my first impression.


----------



## Xoverman

Singxer SU-6 has a  design BUG

After exchanging the oscillator of my 004 and two days of burn in, I won'ted to do some listening tests.
So I sat down in my listeningchair everything was silent. I started the player, but no sound   .  Ohhh, I forgot to plug in the HDMI cable comming from the singxer. I plugged it into the 004, ....... and there it was, a soft hum. 
Now you have to know, that I know that very soft hum. It started when I connected chassis GND to PCB GND. But I never could understand where the ground loop was. 
Well, until now. I unplugged the HDMI again, and the hum went away. Pluged it back in, an the hum was back. 
Pulled out the USB from the singxer, hum was gon. There had to be some kined of connection between the USB input of the singxer and the HDMI output.  So I measured it.  0 Ohm between USB socket housing  and HDMI socket housing.
I opened up my sand filled singxer, and took a closer look. Indeed, as everybody can see on pictures, the USB section is clearly isolated from the rest of the PCB. BUT ONLY THE MIDDLE 4 PINS OF THE USB PLUG!!!!   THE USB PLUG HOUSING IS TIED TO CHASSIS GND!!!!!!!

Almost every USB cable has shielding connected on both sides of the plug, and that's why I had a ground loop. 
The solution is to eather isolat the metal part of the USB plug on the singxer side with kapton tape, or open up the connection on the PCB as I decided to do. 
That solved a lot of sonic problems. I can bite me in my ..... that I didn't question the SU-6 construction earlier.


----------



## iFi audio

Xoverman said:


> Singxer SU-6 has a design BUG
> 
> After exchanging the oscillator of my 004 and two days of burn in, I won'ted to do some listening tests.
> So I sat down in my listeningchair everything was silent. I started the player, but no sound  . Ohhh, I forgot to plug in the HDMI cable comming from the singxer. I plugged it into the 004, ....... and there it was, a soft hum.
> ...



One question: have you contacted folks at Singxer before doing any of this  ?


----------



## b0bb (Jul 27, 2020)

Xoverman said:


> Hi, b0bb
> is the transformer shielded?


No, on something this small (10VA), you would have to have it custom wound if you want something with electrostatic shields, this is a 10USD item, custom items start from 80USD upwards.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Singxer SU-6 has a  design BUG
> 
> After exchanging the oscillator of my 004 and two days of burn in, I won'ted to do some listening tests.
> So I sat down in my listeningchair everything was silent. I started the player, but no sound   .  Ohhh, I forgot to plug in the HDMI cable comming from the singxer. I plugged it into the 004, ....... and there it was, a soft hum.
> ...



On my 004, the metal shell on the HDMI connector is not connected to the chassis ground, check if yours is the case.
The only time this is an issue is when the HDMI connector shell touches the metalwork of the chassis, like it did with the USB input (LKS fixed this in later builds)
I wrapped my HDMI in kapton as a precaution, at least that was my initial thought.

I tried your suggestion of wrapping the connector and it brought improvements, vocal sibilance is almost gone on my HD800 + Schitt Mjolnir setup 
So this did help in further stopping the RF leakage, SU-1 also had the same issue 
(USB and HDMI shells  are connected, so it up to the LKS004 to stop the RF junk, and it does not do a good job in that regard)

Not too pleased with Singxer at the moment, the SU-6 is half the cost of the 004, I expected better.

I added some photos in the SU-6 thread.


----------



## Xoverman

iFi audio said:


> One question: have you contacted folks at Singxer before doing any of this  ?


How should they help me ( us ) ? It’s a design flow on the PCB. No firmware update can change that.
The problematic connection is on a inner layer of the PSB, that’s why I had to cut the PCB.


----------



## iFi audio

Xoverman said:


> How should they help me ( us ) ? It’s a design flow on the PCB. No firmware update can change that.



I'd ask out of curiosity, just to see what they have to say. Onen ever knows, perhaps there's some explaanation why they did what they did. But this aside, it's good that you were able to tweak and handle this issue on your own


----------



## Xoverman

Hey y'all,
did anyone ever change the output filter capacitors on the lks 004 ?


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> There is more of this in the forum for the 004's predecessor for those looking for mod ideas that can be applied to the 004.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-3
> 
> A few pictures of the work over the years in one place.
> ...


@BobB
Hi Bobb, do you also have a picture of the new schottky diode behavior ?
And where did you use the styroflex copper caps ?
Can you please the value of the corning glass capacitors with us ?


----------



## Xoverman

I am thinking about exchanging the first LM317 next to the Analog LPS with a SPX17 Superpower Regulator.
has anyone ever heard of them ?
https://www.belleson.com/store/SPX-Max-Performance/SPX17-Positive-Output


----------



## Xoverman

has anybody ever tried  Tantalum Resistors vor the I/V stage ?  ( Shinkoh - Tantalum Resistors 62 Ohms )


----------



## ESL57

Hello, speak from Spain. Greetings to all, I tell my story with this Dac, I have had a love / hate relation with it for a long time, it is one of the first versions manufactured, the internal firmware is 17-04 I excite it when starting, I bought it from a friend, I love its sound, but it has small noises and crunches when playing certain files, especially more notable in DSD and in sound passages with less recording level, all I have been able to prove is that those noises come from inside the dac, removed amanero, tested by all entries, pcm 44.1khz it is very difficult to detect anything, they are specific files and those times in other dac have no noise. It is nothing external because I use a Gustard U16 with the same results in addition to several PC computers, if you do DSD in PCM (DoP) of those noisy files, the small random noises are still not eliminated. AES, coaxial, I2s, all tested. I have knowledge of electronics, change the old LM317 warriors  or new ultra low noise regulators in adjustable voltage in pcb compatible to220 , install accusilicon 100Mhz clock, shielding the transformers, none of this has worked. This same problem was mentioned by a user about the previous model LKS 003 in this web. I no longer suspect if this firmware version may be the cause, it is something digital, when the dac is unlocked without signal the mute acts and there are no noises. Can someone give me an idea? I have been following you for a long time and you are the only ones with experience with this model. I have to learn to upload images here, I don't see that it can be done from the pc directly. Thanks for reading me.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Hello, speak from Spain. Greetings to all, I tell my story with this Dac, I have had a love / hate relation with it for a long time, it is one of the first versions manufactured, the internal firmware is 17-04 I excite it when starting, I bought it from a friend, I love its sound, but it has small noises and crunches when playing certain files, especially more notable in DSD and in sound passages with less recording level, all I have been able to prove is that those noises come from inside the dac, removed amanero, tested by all entries, pcm 44.1khz it is very difficult to detect anything, they are specific files and those times in other dac have no noise. It is nothing external because I use a Gustard U16 with the same results in addition to several PC computers, if you do DSD in PCM (DoP) of those noisy files, the small random noises are still not eliminated. AES, coaxial, I2s, all tested. I have knowledge of electronics, change the old LM317 warriors  or new ultra low noise regulators in adjustable voltage in pcb compatible to220 , install accusilicon 100Mhz clock, shielding the transformers, none of this has worked. This same problem was mentioned by a user about the previous model LKS 003 in this web. I no longer suspect if this firmware version may be the cause, it is something digital, when the dac is unlocked without signal the mute acts and there are no noises. Can someone give me an idea? I have been following you for a long time and you are the only ones with experience with this model. I have to learn to upload images here, I don't see that it can be done from the pc directly. Thanks for reading me.


Hello ESL57, welcome to the forum 
You can upload pictures by pressing the "attach file" button.
Can you record the noise ?


----------



## ESL57

Thanks Xoverman,  my tests without success, I have seen many photos of the pcb of the 004 and there are many variants and changes of components, perhaps mine needs some improvement made afterwards, for example my pcb did not have the 2 yellow capacitors installed near each es9038pro, I installed them to test 100nf and no improvement.


----------



## ESL57

I will make a recording shortly, they are interference noises and small creaks, I have to live with the volume of the dac to the maximum so that they are not unbearable, and regulating the volume from analog in the preamplifier, at a higher resolution rate worse, pcm almost not it shows, dsd more and worse from dsd128 (5.6mhz) also they are always the same files, some sound better and others make a lot of noises. It is not a problem of contact or lack of insulation between metal connectors such as the hdmi and the chassis, I do not know where to look.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 8, 2020)

Xoverman said:


> @BobB
> Hi Bobb, do you also have a picture of the new schottky diode behavior ?
> And where did you use the styroflex copper caps ?
> Can you please the value of the corning glass capacitors with us ?



Use the polystyrene caps to replace the AVX polyester caps, the ones in your photo

The corning caps are bypass caps, any value between 100pF - 470pF will work.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 7, 2020)

Xoverman said:


> I am thinking about exchanging the first LM317 next to the Analog LPS with a SPX17 Superpower Regulator.
> has anyone ever heard of them ?
> https://www.belleson.com/store/SPX-Max-Performance/SPX17-Positive-Output


The LM317s are for the auxillary powersupplies (Front panel, USB isolator, conditioning for I2S, spdif etc).
SPX17s are very good but expensive to use for this application.

I use it for analog circuits like a headphone amp


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Use the polystyrene caps to replace the AVX polyester caps, the ones in your photo
> 
> The corning caps are bypass caps, any value between 100nF - 470nF will work.


Are you shur you mean nF or is it 100pF - 470pF ?


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> I will make a recording shortly, they are interference noises and small creaks, I have to live with the volume of the dac to the maximum so that they are not unbearable, and regulating the volume from analog in the preamplifier, at a higher resolution rate worse, pcm almost not it shows, dsd more and worse from dsd128 (5.6mhz) also they are always the same files, some sound better and others make a lot of noises. It is not a problem of contact or lack of insulation between metal connectors such as the hdmi and the chassis, I do not know where to look.


How is the BW ( bandwidth) set ?


----------



## ESL57

Thanks for the advice Xoverman, I could read a long time ago that you fixed a 004 unit with burned out components. That does not solve anything, you can set Bw15 to the maximum that the files that generate noise will, and others will not. It does it for the 2 channels, I have tried digital sources that are not USB and there are small noises, I think my unit is very early, maybe something was corrected later. I want to take photos of the back of the pcb, in case someone has one like mine 17-04 and it works well, maybe some modifications are on or missing. I put the top photo for now.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Are you shur you mean nF or is it 100pF - 470pF ?


100pF - 470pF


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Thanks for the advice Xoverman, I could read a long time ago that you fixed a 004 unit with burned out components. That does not solve anything, you can set Bw15 to the maximum that the files that generate noise will, and others will not. It does it for the 2 channels, I have tried digital sources that are not USB and there are small noises, I think my unit is very early, maybe something was corrected later. I want to take photos of the back of the pcb, in case someone has one like mine 17-04 and it works well, maybe some modifications are on or missing. I put the top photo for now.


Is the noise one both channels the same? 
What AMP do you uses? 
You wrote that it only happens with some files, and always the same files. What happens when you play theas files on a different device?
Are theas files louder than the other files? 
How does it sound ?


----------



## ESL57

Yes, it is the same type of interference noise on both channels, also try disconnecting the display, the different filters selectable, none of that works to improve the problem.
I have many amplifiers in my collection, I think 99% are tube, I have tried several of them, unfortunately that is not the problem, as simple as replacing this dac with another in my audio set and those files will not have any noise, but the magic of the lks004 is lost. My favorite amps for their sonic realism are the Mcintosh mc30 monoblocks.
By the way and not to talk all the time about problems, for me it was a pleasant surprise to remove/replace the improved amanero module and its wonderful power supply, with Gustard u16, the sound gained in naturalness and spatiality, also gustard thought about the hdmi i2s of LKS and from the front panel "LKS" is chosen for the correct pin of the DSD flag automatically. Strange artifact the u16 with a very unusual usb chipset, but enormously musical at the time, much better than su1 and su6 in my opinion. It seems that the fashions pass and now users are looking for DI-20E as the latest innovation in usb bridge, they do not seem to be exempt from new problems either. By the way, the clocks are doubling and quadrupling the frequency clocks in the usb bridges, amanero: 22.5 / 24.5Mhz. u16: 45 / 49Mhz, the new di-20e: 90 / 98Mhz, does this benefit sound quality? u16 has an internal jumper for this, I don't know its correct function.


----------



## Baten

Lennym said:


> When this DAC was released there was very little talk about mods, except to relieve the overheating issue.  Anyone can go back and look.  There being all this talk now about mods to this DAC, makes me wonder when the factory will release the MH-DA005.  Does anyone know what the historical release schedule of new models has been?  Anyone in touch with Jinbo on the subject?


https://shenzhenaudio.com/collectio...ac-coaxial-opt-aes-ebu-flagship-audio-decoder


----------



## Gilberto 62

Good morning guys. Please can someone explain or shed some light on this ...? 
  What is it really ...? a new product ...? a professional update on our DA004 ...? Thanks for your opinion ...

https://shenzhenaudio.com/collectio...ac-coaxial-opt-aes-ebu-flagship-audio-decoder


----------



## Baten

It doesn't seem like it builds on DA004, but a new product / official successor. Many high quality capacitors!! It looks good !!


----------



## ESL57

Impressive electronics components from reputed brands have assembled inside . Twice as expensive is the same as twice as good sound ?, Only time will tell, and also those that compare 004 against 005 directly. At least our dear 004 did not stay with an obsolete es90XX chip, something is something. LKS 004 is an excellent device for its price, I will fight to save it, deserves it.


----------



## Lennym (Aug 10, 2020)

Doubling of the price pushes Jinbo into some VERY competitive territory. Can a Chinese direct import DAC based on the ES 9038pro (even 2 of them) compete at that level?

Meanwhile I'd like to ask about what seems to be an easy mod done by Auxinput where he replaced 4 KZ caps in the post-regulator section with 1000uf 25V Panasonic FR caps. 
Has anyone else done that?  b0bb, do you have any comment on this mod?


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman, I have the audio file with the noises, the LKS volume is low enough so that the noises can be heard well with respect to the recording. But Head-fi.org does not allow to upload audio files, and this is .mp3 (some other option). By the way, does anyone know what function the led diodes have near each es9038pro, they are always not activated?


----------



## b0bb (Aug 10, 2020)

Additional discussion on the MH-DA005. Google to translate if required.
http://www.erji.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2195440

LKS is using 3x SuperCap supply, each bank with 2 caps that charge on alternate cycles
Internal DSP filter can be disabled -->NOS mode useful for things like HQplayer

Lower consumption 15W vs 25W on 004. The 004 analog stage is a true Class-A monster


----------



## b0bb

Lennym said:


> Meanwhile I'd like to ask about what seems to be an easy mod done by Auxinput where he replaced 4 KZ caps in the post-regulator section with 1000uf 25V Panasonic FR caps.
> Has anyone else done that?  b0bb, do you have any comment on this mod?



LKS used FR caps in the first version


----------



## Lennym (Aug 11, 2020)

b0bb said:


> Additional discussion on the MH-DA005. Google to translate if required.
> http://www.erji.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2195440
> 
> LKS is using 3x SuperCap supply, each bank with 2 caps that charge on alternate cycles
> ...



This is a line in the description that got my attention: "Under the well-designed control logic, the storage and discharge are completely isolated and do not affect each other, so that the influence of the mains noise on the DAC main circuit can be avoided to a large extent."

Though Shenzhen's price is given as $3299, the Chinese price (from mu-sound, Jinbo?) translates to $2706.  But is that an early bird price (2020.8.8) whose time has ended?  Then there is the 004 trade in deal which seems to start, for older machines, at about $863 less shipping.  Finally there seems to be a "listening" deal of a fully broken in unit available for the cost of round-trip shipping.

Depending on a bottom line price I might be interested.  It might not be difficult for us to organize a joint buy from the factory; Jinbo is very easy to correspond with  and very reliable.  But of course I need to know more about its SQ.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Xoverman, I have the audio file with the noises, the LKS volume is low enough so that the noises can be heard well with respect to the recording. But Head-fi.org does not allow to upload audio files, and this is .mp3 (some other option). By the way, does anyone know what function the led diodes have near each es9038pro, they are always not activated?


Thanks for the file.
in the old days amplifiers sounded like that, when they had a brocken resistor , or a oxidised switch in the soundpath. Or a dirty potentiometer.
But then you would only have that problem on one channel. And it would not be dependent on the peace of music you are playing.
So my best guess is power supply. Or RF being demodulated dependent on the sampling frequency or file content.
Do you have an oscilloscope ?


----------



## ESL57

Yes, I have 2 oscilloscopes, the best is a Philips 60Mhz bandwidth, I also have a real-time dynamic signal analyzer Hp 3561a, it reaches up to 100khz (ideal for seeing harmonics, distortion, and other quality parameters of a signal ), I am a bit from the old school of analog audio, the problem with these new dac is that there are no diagrams and also there are not always datasheets of all the chips, for example es9038pro I do not see many examples of implementation with their diagrams on the web . But it is something common to both channels, and the warranty period of the dac expired, I would like if someone had an idea of a method of checks to perform, to locate the origin of the interferences. An initial firmware with some imperfection cannot be ruled out, although I read that Jimbo told some user here that updates to this firmware were not necessary. I am open to recommendations. Thank you


----------



## oldearwax

ESL57 said:


> a method of checks to perform, to locate the origin of the interferences. An initial firmware with some imperfection cannot be ruled out, although I read that Jimbo told some user here that updates to this firmware were not necessary. I am open to recommendations. Thank you



Question: Is the noise common to both channels ?

Question:  Does it happen to both single-ended AND balanced outputs ?




Small suggestion: capture both outputs with a sound card/computer using tool like audacity.
Use different files too.
Identify where the noise is in time. Analyze the spectrum of the noise. Is it deterministic
or indeed random (white) ....


----------



## ESL57

oldearwax said:


> Question: Is the noise common to both channels ?
> 
> Question:  Does it happen to both single-ended AND balanced outputs ?
> 
> ...


The noises are on both channels, although I think they are not exact replicas on both, each channel is different from the other. Yes, the balanced and unbalanced outputs do exactly the same. There are noisy files and others not so much (I think more than anything because in those with a lower recording level the noise stands out more), native DSD or DoP is the same, the noise is not eliminated when encapsulating DSD, pcm would say that it is not easy to listen nothing abnormal. I think it is a good idea to generate a DSD file without signal for testing purposes. The truth is that it is a very good idea to capture the same audio file several times and record them, and see if the noises always follow the same pattern or are random. Thanks for your suggestion.


----------



## ESL57

Something similar to my problem, in another early 2017 unit? 
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/post-13491588

Nobody observes these problems in their newer units?


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Something similar to my problem, in another early 2017 unit?
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/post-13491588
> 
> Nobody observes these problems in their newer units?


Hi ESL57,
I played around a little bit yesterday. My playback chain is:  PC --> singxer opto isolation  --> ifi micro USB --> singxer-SU-6 HDMI LKS 004
OS is Windows 10 . I experienced the same noise when the mixer from Windows volume control wasn't at 100% ( maximum ).
It sounded just like the sample file you send me. 
Maybe that gives you hint .


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Hi ESL57,
> I played around a little bit yesterday. My playback chain is:  PC --> singxer opto isolation  --> ifi micro USB --> singxer-SU-6 HDMI LKS 004
> OS is Windows 10 . I experienced the same noise when the mixer from Windows volume control wasn't at 100% ( maximum ).
> It sounded just like the sample file you send me.
> Maybe that gives you hint .



Thanks, the windows volume is at the maximum, I tried w7, w10 both in their 32 and 64bits versions, just to play a little more I also tried audiophilelinux (but I have the installation halfway, it is not easy to make it work, this linux so customized ). DSD played with the asio-dsd drivers from both amanero and Gustard, I tested with foobar, jriver and some more, I have the Ifi brand: ipurifier, iusb power and Ifi usb cables. At first I thought it was some problem from USB, unfortunately I realized later that if a digital signal is connected to AES for example DSD without being USB the problem is the same, it is inside the LKS004. Also DSD is a closed audio format, the volume control of foobar or windows should not be able to control it, in fact only the volume of LKS controls the volume of the DSD files. Long ago I read this head-fi thread, they were beautiful times of capacitor changes, 100Mhz oscillators changes, mains fuses, transformer isolations, even donuts of materials from Mars, all very instructive and entertaining. I never remember having seen an appearance of someone representing this brand giving solutions or ideas to its loyal users to their problems, this being the greatest meeting point of its loyal buyers, little direct attention received here, it is just my humble opinion, LKS in short knows its creation better than anyone.


----------



## AuxInput

Lennym said:


> Doubling of the price pushes Jinbo into some VERY competitive territory. Can a Chinese direct import DAC based on the ES 9038pro (even 2 of them) compete at that level?
> 
> Meanwhile I'd like to ask about what seems to be an easy mod done by Auxinput where he replaced 4 KZ caps in the post-regulator section with 1000uf 25V Panasonic FR caps.
> Has anyone else done that?  b0bb, do you have any comment on this mod?



First, the KZ caps were not stock.  They were one of my original upgrades.  Stock caps were 390uf 16V rubycon caps.  Bumping them up to 1000uf Panasonic FR caps would be an improvement, but I did a huge amount of work on upgrading this DAC, so I'm not sure what just doing these 4 caps would do.  Possibly improve bass, but I think the analog power supply is still a bit undersized.   If you wanted my opinion on the most important parts to upgrade, they are:

- replace stock 575 clock with Accusilicon AS318-B-100  (I'm glad to see more than one person using this clock now)
- replace analog power supply 2 x 4700uf Mundorf main PS caps with 2 x 10,000uf 40V Mundorf
- replace analog power supply post regulator caps with 1000uf 50V Nichicon KZ caps
- replace 4 390uf digital post regulator caps with 1000uf Panasonic FR
- replace left most cap in digital main power supplies with 10,000uf or 22,000uf Mundorf (you can use 25V here)


----------



## AuxInput

b0bb said:


> Additional discussion on the MH-DA005. Google to translate if required.
> http://www.erji.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2195440
> 
> LKS is using 3x SuperCap supply, each bank with 2 caps that charge on alternate cycles
> ...



No heatsinks on the DAC chips, so we can probably assume that they are not running the ES9038 in high current mode.  It looks like he is focusing on making the power supply line as pure as possible.  Regenerative power, like what Audio-GD is doing a lot with their high end DACS.  Kind of like having a PS Audio A/C re-generator power conditioner built into your DAC.  Massive amount of regulation and massive amount of power smoothing (look at all the rows of polymer caps around the DAC chips and clock, as well as other places.  Looks like he upgraded certain components, silver transformer and wiring, more mundorf caps in other areas.  I'm still somewhat concerned about power supply current.  I like a big power supply to give big bass/midbass and full sound.  This could be a very nice DAC, but I might still lean towards a heavily modified 004 DAC.


----------



## Xoverman

AuxInput said:


> First, the KZ caps were not stock.  They were one of my original upgrades.  Stock caps were 390uf 16V rubycon caps.  Bumping them up to 1000uf Panasonic FR caps would be an improvement, but I did a huge amount of work on upgrading this DAC, so I'm not sure what just doing these 4 caps would do.  Possibly improve bass, but I think the analog power supply is still a bit undersized.   If you wanted my opinion on the most important parts to upgrade, they are:
> 
> - replace stock 575 clock with Accusilicon AS318-B-100  (I'm glad to see more than one person using this clock now)
> - replace analog power supply 2 x 4700uf Mundorf main PS caps with 2 x 10,000uf 40V Mundorf
> ...


Hi Aux input, 
Du you still recall what the replacement of the left most cap in digital main power supplies with 10,000uf or 22,000uf Mundorf did for you ?
I did all the other changes, with great results. Except the 4x 1000uf Panasonic FR, witch I took out again. ( sound got to harsh)


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Additional discussion on the MH-DA005. Google to translate if required.
> http://www.erji.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=2195440
> 
> LKS is using 3x SuperCap supply, each bank with 2 caps that charge on alternate cycles
> ...


The new MUSETEC DA005 announces having silicon carbide schottky diodes (SIC) installed as rectifiers, b0bb we miss any sonic improvement with without these rectifiers, if so, would you put a specific type for our 004?


----------



## b0bb (Aug 17, 2020)

Xoverman said:


> Except the 4x 1000uf Panasonic FR, witch I took out again. ( sound got to harsh)


You might want to do what LKS did and use 2200uF

The output inductance of the LM317 shunted with 1000uF will produce a resonant peak at 650Hz, this the lower midrange

A 2200uF cap lowers this to 438Hz.

This peak is reflected as in increase in output impedance at this critical frequency, the lower the ESR of the cap, the higher the peak of the resonance, this sucks out the lower midrange in the track.

35V 1000uF FR cap ESR is 18milliohm --> almost no loss to damp the resonant peak

1000uF low ESR FR cap is about the worst possible choice.


Below is an article from the manufacturer written many years ago.
https://electrooptical.net/static/oldsite/www/sed/ErrolDietzRegulatorNoisePeaks.pdf



I would just use a smaller 1uF low leakage tantalum here.
If you end up putting a large cap here, add bypass shunt diodes to discharge the cap and reduce the risk of blowing up the regulator


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> The new MUSETEC DA005 announces having silicon carbide schottky diodes (SIC) installed as rectifiers, b0bb we miss any sonic improvement with without these rectifiers, if so, would you put a specific type for our 004?



SiC diodes is part of the Schottky diode family, they switch very quickly and there is no stored charge to cause ringing problems with the power transformer inductance
Schottky's however have about 10x the leakage of conventional diodes, so you end up with more noise in the power supply.

The leakage current is measured at the operating voltage.
SiC diodes are the very high voltage variant of the Schottky diode and the leakage is measured at 600-1000V normally

I used the conventional Schottky from Vishay when I modded the LKS003, these have very low leakage at 100-200V around 4uA
I chose this over the SiC diodes, they are cheaper and readily available .

If you look back a few posts of the thread you will see more discussion of this


----------



## AuxInput

Xoverman said:


> Hi Aux input,
> Du you still recall what the replacement of the left most cap in digital main power supplies with 10,000uf or 22,000uf Mundorf did for you ?
> I did all the other changes, with great results. Except the 4x 1000uf Panasonic FR, witch I took out again. ( sound got to harsh)



Sorry, I did most of the part upgrades all at once.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 16, 2020)

@Xoverman asked about the before and after pictures with the Schottky diodes

Before.
Note the abrupt transition and ringing, injecting noise into the power







Using the Vishay Schottky
Note the very smooth transition, no visible ringing.
Note divide values by 2, the probe used is slightly different


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> You might want to do what LKS did and use 2200uF
> 
> The output inductance of the LM317 shunted with 1000uF will produce a resonant peak at 650Hz, this the lower midrange
> 
> ...


Hi b0bb,
thanks for your great knowledge and for sharing it with us again and again  
can you please post a picture of your digital LPS stage for us ?


----------



## Xoverman

@b0bb 
can you pleas tell us which lowpass capacitor you are using in the I/V stage ?


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> @b0bb
> can you pleas tell us which lowpass capacitor you are using in the I/V stage ?


Film on foil polypropylene cap like Wima  FKP or Polystyrene Foil caps
The hard part is to get 1% or better match cross all 4 caps as it affects the i/v conversion rolloff frequency


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Hi b0bb,
> thanks for your great knowledge and for sharing it with us again and again
> can you please post a picture of your digital LPS stage for us ?


Mine is Gen1 so LKS did not use any strange caps, mostly Nichicon FPCaps and those are pretty good and I left them alone
The digital LPS on my Gen1 is all stock there was no need to change anything


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Film on foil polypropylene cap like Wima  FKP or Polystyrene Foil caps
> The hard part is to get 1% or better match cross all 4 caps as it affects the i/v conversion rolloff frequency


i'm talking about the active discrete OP-Amp part. Not the passive filter after that.
On my DAC stock is silver Mica.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> i'm talking about the active discrete OP-Amp part. Not the passive filter after that.
> On my DAC stock is silver Mica.



That is the set of caps I am referring to, these roll of  the transimpedance of the i/v at high frequencies.
It is down to preference, polystyrene gives a more rounded and mellow presentation.
Film-foil PP caps sharpen up the presentation at the expense of some smoothness.  
Keep the mica caps if you like them.

Avoid the use of the Corning glass caps here, the very low loss factor requires changing the value to readjust the transient response.
Avoid metallized PP caps the loss factor increases and you have to adjust the other way.
The sonic signature can be very harsh if the above work is not done


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> That is the set of caps I am referring to, these roll of  the transimpedance of the i/v at high frequencies.
> It is down to preference, polystyrene gives a more rounded and mellow presentation.
> Film-foil PP caps sharpen up the presentation at the expense of some smoothness.
> Keep the mica caps if you like them.
> ...


thanks for the tip. I would have tried the glass. I ordered glass for the i/v power supply now.
have you tried wima mkp10, or Vishay MKP 1837 ?
what is LKS using at the moment ?


----------



## Xoverman

Hello everybody, 
I use a singxer-SU-6 and i2s HDMI  to feed the lks 004 with audio. As playback software I use foobar2000.
I just had to set-up my system neu and installed the latest USB audio class 2 driver from singxer. 
In Foobar it tells me that it's a asio output device. But it only let's me select 16 or 24bit output, not 32bit. 
What am I doing wrong? I know that it used to be 32bit. Singxer can handle 32bit over i2s, and LKS can handle it to. 
So why doesn't the driver give me the chance to set it up. What am I doing wrong? 
Thanks for your help


----------



## b0bb (Aug 21, 2020)

Xoverman said:


> have you tried wima mkp10, or Vishay MKP 1837 ?
> what is LKS using at the moment ?



Both types are metallized PP get Wima FKP or FKP2 instead
Not sure what LKS is using presently


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> That is the set of caps I am referring to, these roll of  the transimpedance of the i/v at high frequencies.
> It is down to preference, polystyrene gives a more rounded and mellow presentation.
> Film-foil PP caps sharpen up the presentation at the expense of some smoothness.
> Keep the mica caps if you like them.
> ...


To be honest. I do not know where to start measuring and verifying signals to try to isolate the problem of noise in a specific area of the circuit (perhaps filtering in stage I / V ?.  I have been able to verify that they are random, they never coincide 2 times in the same place of the audio file. For me the search is complicated. If the volume is set to -127.0db (minimum) they do not disappear, PCM does not get rid of them, they are less loud but they are there, DSD the noises are more continuous and strong, only when the signal stops, the mute works and silence appears. I have tried a cd player and put it on the coax input, with the volume at -127.0db with 44.1khz audio, in play the noises (soft) are heard, calm returns in stop. I don't know, but it seems that these first units were not perfected, it is clear that the problem is not a specific input or specific files. b0bb can you come up with any idea where these noises come from high frequency interference, would you recommend me check some signal or point of the circuit ?. My fight with this dear Dac is already personal. Thanks


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Hello everybody,
> I use a singxer-SU-6 and i2s HDMI  to feed the lks 004 with audio. As playback software I use foobar2000.
> I just had to set-up my system neu and installed the latest USB audio class 2 driver from singxer.
> In Foobar it tells me that it's a asio output device. But it only let's me select 16 or 24bit output, not 32bit.
> ...


I'd like to help you, but I don't have SU6 here. Maybe go back to the previous controller to know if they forgot something in the new one, Gustard U16 even being a weirdo, yesterday I verified that your dsd-asio driver supports 8,16,24 and 32bits, my theory is that the ES8620 usb chip was designed by Sabre just like es9038pro, maybe sonically they get along well for that, although it seems that it will soon become obsolete, it is not recommended for new audio equipment by the manufacturer itself, linux will also be a headache for anyone who tries to make it work there, Neither in the dac x26 its implementation seems to work well, it may possibly be in the future as the holy grail of something that is no longer manufactured and nobody set their eyes on it at the time.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> To be honest. I do not know where to start measuring and verifying signals to try to isolate the problem of noise in a specific area of the circuit (perhaps filtering in stage I / V ?.  I have been able to verify that they are random, they never coincide 2 times in the same place of the audio file. For me the search is complicated. If the volume is set to -127.0db (minimum) they do not disappear, PCM does not get rid of them, they are less loud but they are there, DSD the noises are more continuous and strong, only when the signal stops, the mute works and silence appears. I have tried a cd player and put it on the coax input, with the volume at -127.0db with 44.1khz audio, in play the noises (soft) are heard, calm returns in stop. I don't know, but it seems that these first units were not perfected, it is clear that the problem is not a specific input or specific files. b0bb can you come up with any idea where these noises come from high frequency interference, would you recommend me check some signal or point of the circuit ?. My fight with this dear Dac is already personal. Thanks


When did the problem start happening and did the 2 LEDs near the DAC chips flash on when it happened?


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> When did the problem start happening and did the 2 LEDs near the DAC chips flash on when it happened?


What do the LED's indicat ?


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> To be honest. I do not know where to start measuring and verifying signals to try to isolate the problem of noise in a specific area of the circuit (perhaps filtering in stage I / V ?.  I have been able to verify that they are random, they never coincide 2 times in the same place of the audio file. For me the search is complicated. If the volume is set to -127.0db (minimum) they do not disappear, PCM does not get rid of them, they are less loud but they are there, DSD the noises are more continuous and strong, only when the signal stops, the mute works and silence appears. I have tried a cd player and put it on the coax input, with the volume at -127.0db with 44.1khz audio, in play the noises (soft) are heard, calm returns in stop. I don't know, but it seems that these first units were not perfected, it is clear that the problem is not a specific input or specific files. b0bb can you come up with any idea where these noises come from high frequency interference, would you recommend me check some signal or point of the circuit ?. My fight with this dear Dac is already personal. Thanks


The LKS 004 has a aluminum heatsink underneath each DAC chip. Maybe one doesn't sit right?


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> When did the problem start happening and did the 2 LEDs near the DAC chips flash on when it happened?


I resend 2 photos of the upper and lower part of the main board, on the back of the pcb there are many 0.1uf capacitors between the electrolytic filtering capacitors, also in my tests I installed these capacitors between some diode bridge ( just to see the effect). I have never seen the led diodes lit near the dacs. I don't think this problem happened overnight (I bought this dac from a friend who replaced it for this problem, when after time use dsd music and hear the noises). I also remember that I removed the ground from the mains socket (no improvement). My main board has no dissipation on the es9038pro to the chassis. I would like to see in later versions or revisions what changes were made (in hardware, not just in firmware).


----------



## b0bb (Aug 22, 2020)

ESL57 said:


> I resend 2 photos of the upper and lower part of the main board, on the back of the pcb there are many 0.1uf capacitors between the electrolytic filtering capacitors, also in my tests I installed these capacitors between some diode bridge ( just to see the effect). I have never seen the led diodes lit near the dacs. I don't think this problem happened overnight (I bought this dac from a friend who replaced it for this problem, when after time use dsd music and hear the noises). I also remember that I removed the ground from the mains socket (no improvement). My main board has no dissipation on the es9038pro to the chassis. I would like to see in later versions or revisions what changes were made (in hardware, not just in firmware).


Was the DAC modified in any way when you first saw the problem?
Increase the DPLL setting to its maximum to see if that helps.

If you have an oscillloscope post pictures of the output of the AS318 clock output, scope should have a bandwidth 300MHz or higher


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> What do the LED's indicat ?


DPLL lock failure.


----------



## AuxInput

b0bb said:


> Both types are metallized PP get Wima FKP or FKP2 instead
> Not sure what LKS is using presently



The current gen (at least from February of this year) is using 220pf WIMA MKP (metallized polypropylene) for the I/V negative feedback compensation caps.  The Gen 1 LKS used Silver Mica caps here.  I have not heard Gen 1, but my experience with Mica is that they over-accentuate the ultra high frequencies and give a "tizz" type of sound/effect.  They are also microphonic.  When I changed to film-on-foil polypropylene caps, it gave a much more natural and smoother sound.

The current gen uses cheap metallized polyester 2200pf for the output compensation caps.

b0bb recommends WIMA FKP film-on-foil caps for these positions.  For anything 2200pf and under, I have always used Kemet PFR film-on-foil which are excellent.  The Kemet are more expensive than the WIMA FKP, so I hedged my bets on these instead.  The WIMA are likely excellent as well.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Was the DAC modified in any way when you first saw the problem?
> Increase the DPLL setting to its maximum to see if that helps.
> 
> If you have an oscillloscope post pictures of the output of the AS318 clock output, scope should have a bandwidth 300MHz or higher


Thank you b0bb for answering, saying that everything I have tried to change / test in this dac has only been to find the solution to the noises, I bought it completely original from the factory, they were not changes to improve the sound, so I was just the one I tried with it and I know all my tests without success: Shielding of transformers. interlacing of transformer cables, change of oscillator clock, replacement of the 3 LM317 regulators with low noise modules, tests with 0.1uf capacitors between filter capacitors and some diodes to try to eliminate possible high frequency signals from the AC supply . The DPLL I keep it to the maximum (15) and this does not solve anything, just saying that PCM works well in 1 without problems and DSD from 6 can be fine without unlocking, removing the display / keypad module does not solve anything, or disconnecting the grounding. Unfortunately I only have for time domain (60Mhz oscilloscope) and frequency domain (100khz FFT signal analyzer) I was a kid from the analog age of audio, without 100Mhz signals to analyze.


----------



## Forgisound (Aug 25, 2020)

The new Jinbo uncompromising machine, 005.😁
For double price. 🥺
But, I think, it is total high end. 👍


----------



## MartinWT (Aug 26, 2020)

Has anyone seen the LKS MH-DA005 yet?  The layout looks beautiful.

https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/...ac-coaxial-opt-aes-ebu-flagship-audio-decoder

Oops, I see it has already been discussed.


----------



## Xoverman

Thanks B0bb,
last week i installed 220pf glass capacitors under the buffering elkos of the of the I/V stage.
Even though it didn't improve bass slam or level, it gives more clarity and depth, witch of course is always nice to have


----------



## Xoverman

As both B0bb and AuxInput point out, one of the biggest mods to the 004 is changing the I/V resistors .
Last weekend i had some time to exchange the factory 68,2 Ohm 0,5W resistors agenst Vishay CPF3 3-watt 61.9 ohm resistors.
After one day of burn in time, I gave it a first listening test.
I was very impressed with her performance !!! And this time bass performance improved dramatically.
( Grundton ) has become very well defined with more dynamics. Male voices are more mature or masculine, and female voices are softer and more real. All of the artificial glear is gone. Even tho I still use the silver mikas. I'm very very happy with the result.


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> As both B0bb and AuxInput point out, one of the biggest mods to the 004 is changing the I/V resistors .
> Last weekend i had some time to exchange the factory 68,2 Ohm 0,5W resistors agenst Vishay CPF3 3-watt 61.9 ohm resistors.
> After one day of burn in time, I gave it a first listening test.
> I was very impressed with her performance !!! And this time bass performance improved dramatically.
> ( Grundton ) has become very well defined with more dynamics. Male voices are more mature or masculine, and female voices are softer and more real. All of the artificial glear is gone. Even tho I still use the silver mikas. I'm very very happy with the result.


Thanks for sharing your tests and experiences, I take note for my next tasks to be done in the dac. By the way, did you choose the resistance value 61.9ohm because it was the one you found closest and with good characteristics of thermal stability ppm and precision, or was it for some different reason to lower and not raise the value? I have some components to change in my dac to try to solve the noise problem, if I succeed I will communicate it and explain it here. I would also like if someone could try to explain the function of each adjustable resistor and if someone knows a criteria and guidelines for each setting.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> *Measuring DAC fullscale output current.*
> Method described below measures  peak output current of the DAC which in-turn determines the wattage of the upgraded I/V resistor.
> 
> The method plays back a pre-generated fullscale sinewave signal thru the DAC.
> ...


 I did not remember this interesting post, my heatsink is a small Gen1 version, not the big one, the current if low the value to 61.9ohm will increase to more than 70ma, I do not know if it will be a good idea or only the resistance will heat up a little more.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> I did not remember this interesting post, my heatsink is a small Gen1 version, not the big one, the current if low the value to 61.9ohm will increase to more than 70ma, I do not know if it will be a good idea or only the resistance will heat up a little more.


The operating current is programmed into the ES9038 at startup by its support microcontroller.

Changing the resistor value will not change the operating current, only the i/v transfer ratio.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> As both B0bb and AuxInput point out, one of the biggest mods to the 004 is changing the I/V resistors .
> Last weekend i had some time to exchange the factory 68,2 Ohm 0,5W resistors agenst Vishay CPF3 3-watt 61.9 ohm resistors.
> After one day of burn in time, I gave it a first listening test.
> I was very impressed with her performance !!! And this time bass performance improved dramatically.
> ( Grundton ) has become very well defined with more dynamics. Male voices are more mature or masculine, and female voices are softer and more real. All of the artificial glear is gone. Even tho I still use the silver mikas. I'm very very happy with the result.


The 0.5W resistor used in some Gen2 units were undersized for the load current it had to carry.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Thanks for sharing your tests and experiences, I take note for my next tasks to be done in the dac. By the way, did you choose the resistance value 61.9ohm because it was the one you found closest and with good characteristics of thermal stability ppm and precision, or was it for some different reason to lower and not raise the value? I have some components to change in my dac to try to solve the noise problem, if I succeed I will communicate it and explain it here. I would also like if someone could try to explain the function of each adjustable resistor and if someone knows a criteria and guidelines for each setting.


The actual value of the resistor is not so critical, as long as you stay with in +/- 20% of the original value. So for example going from 68.2 to 61.9 gives me 0.5db lower output level, which of course can be ignored.
The potentiometers are there to adjust the the output offset. In my example the output offset had to be readrusted from -0,1 Volt back to 0,000 Volt after changing the resitors.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 2, 2020)

Xoverman said:


> The actual value of the resistor is not so critical, as long as you stay with in +/- 20% of the original value. So for example going from 68.2 to 61.9 gives me 0.5db lower output level, which of course can be ignored.
> The potentiometers are there to adjust the the output offset. In my example the output offset had to be readrusted from -0,1 Volt back to 0,000 Volt after changing the resitors.




Please keep the replacement resistor as close to the stock I/V resistor as possible.
The SMD trimmer on the board has a very limited  number of adjustment cycles, avoid readjustment as much as possible.

The I/V resistor in parallel with the I/V cap is responsible for the frequency compensation due to the input capacitance seen at the I/V input.

Not sure if the Gen2.x have different input capacitance, @AuxInput mentioned 220pf

Gen1    100pF//68.1ohm  fc = 23.4MHz
Gen2    100pF/61.5ohm fc = 25.9MHz
Gen2.x  220pf//61.5 ohm fc = 11.8Mhz


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Please keep the replacement resistor as close to the stock I/V resistor as possible.
> The SMD trimmer on the board has a very limited  number of adjustment cycles, avoid readjustment as much as possible.
> 
> The I/V resistor in parallel with the I/V cap is responsible for the frequency compensation due to the input capacitance seen at the I/V input.
> ...


I had 68,1 Ohm and 2x 130pF opper side, and 1x 160pf next to the dual JFet soldered to the rear side. All three being silver mica.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Hi all. I haven't written here for a long time, but as always when I need a little light or advice, I turn to you who have experience and knowledge. Since I've achieved musical peace on my simple Foobar + iFi usb cable + LKS combo, I play all my music by upsampling to dsd512 and the IIR70K filter and setting the dpll to a minimum whenever possible. As I lack the knowledge to make those incredible upgrades that you see around here, my only option to have an alternative to this LKS, simply to have another device with which to compare, is another dac that you think is the same height than our mh-da004. Which will be...? RME, CHORD, another ...? I'm only interested in the dac function, which makes that conversion as sweet as possible. But please, not at John Rockefeller prices ... Thanks for your opinion.


----------



## hygume

Has anyone actually gotten their hands on a MH-DA005 yet?  Modded 004 or a brand new 005.... Decisions, decisions.....


----------



## Gilberto 62

hygume said:


> Has anyone actually gotten their hands on a MH-DA005 yet?  Modded 004 or a brand new 005.... Decisions, decisions.....


Uh ...!  That question interests me too.  Anyone with the DA005 ...?


----------



## AuxInput

b0bb said:


> Not sure if the Gen2.x have different input capacitance, @AuxInput mentioned 220pf
> 
> Gen1    100pF//68.1ohm  fc = 23.4MHz
> Gen2    100pF/61.5ohm fc = 25.9MHz
> Gen2.x  220pf//61.5 ohm fc = 11.8Mhz



I did not deviate much in the I/V section from my stock model, with the exception of bumping up the power supply filter caps (upgraded 22uf to 100uf).  I had 61.8 ohm resistors and 220pf WIMA MKP's inside the I/V circuit.  The 61.9 ohm Vishay VPF3 was the best and closest resistor I could find.  The output compensation were 2200pf polyester (cheap).  I did not have any silver mica in my Gen 2.x (as b0bb likes to call it).


----------



## Xoverman

AuxInput said:


> I did not deviate much in the I/V section from my stock model, with the exception of bumping up the power supply filter caps (upgraded 22uf to 100uf).  I had 61.8 ohm resistors and 220pf WIMA MKP's inside the I/V circuit.  The 61.9 ohm Vishay VPF3 was the best and closest resistor I could find.  The output compensation were 2200pf polyester (cheap).  I did not have any silver mica in my Gen 2.x (as b0bb likes to call it).


I wonder why they put silver mica in the I/V conversation stage ?


----------



## Forgisound

A lot has been written here. 
Can anyone specify all the LKS 004 upgrades that have improved the sound of the DAC?


----------



## littlexx26

Forgisound said:


> A lot has been written here.
> Can anyone specify all the LKS 004 upgrades that have improved the sound of the DAC?


the easiest and very noticeable is to change the fuse


----------



## Gilberto 62

Hello guys. Please see if any of you can shed a little light on my digital path. It turns out that recently, in a forum about dacs in my country, Spain, I commented that I always play ALL my music prior to upsampling to dsd512, as I have seen many of you do. So, I got this answer:


"...Upsampling with DSD from DSD? It is correct to perform a PCM to DSD conversion to perform a more "analog" antialiasing, in the manner of Sony's "Superbit mapping" (SBM) process, and it would also accept an oversampling from a lower PCM to a higher one, but raise the sample from a DSD file does not make any sense, especially if they are multiples, which they always are, they want to exhaust resources of a digital source...."

    What do you think about this ...? Am I correct doing that upsampling of ALL my music to dsd512 ...? or am I in an absurdity ...? Many thanks to all of you. A greeting from Spain....


----------



## Forgisound

Meitner turns everything into a DSD512, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## b0bb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Hello guys. Please see if any of you can shed a little light on my digital path. It turns out that recently, in a forum about dacs in my country, Spain, I commented that I always play ALL my music prior to upsampling to dsd512, as I have seen many of you do. So, I got this answer:
> 
> 
> "...Upsampling with DSD from DSD? It is correct to perform a PCM to DSD conversion to perform a more "analog" antialiasing, in the manner of Sony's "Superbit mapping" (SBM) process, and it would also accept an oversampling from a lower PCM to a higher one, but raise the sample from a DSD file does not make any sense, especially if they are multiples, which they always are, they want to exhaust resources of a digital source...."
> ...


LKS 004 uses the ES9038PRO, the PCM to DSD conversion is built in, if you supply DSD input, you will bypass this conversion.
The comment you posted does not apply here.

Doing your own conversion is no guarantee of better quality, in many cases external PCM to DSD conversion (foobar, jriver etc) is slightly worse compared to the conversion done by the chip.

In order to do better than stock, look at Roon and HQplayer, not cheap but both deliver better performance if you have hardware powerful enough to do the work.


----------



## Gilberto 62

As always, thank you very much b0bb for your opinion. Well, at the moment I am with Foobar because my pc does not support the demands of HQPlayer, but soon there will be changes in my computer hardware and I will follow that path. Greetings to all ...


----------



## m-i-c-k-e-y (Sep 29, 2020)

double post


----------



## ti5002000

Hi guys

I am thinking of replacing all the LM317 regulators for a better ones.

Is the regulated voltage for all 3 LM317 5v or there is any that supply 3.3v?

Thanks for the help


----------



## AuxInput

Forgisound said:


> A lot has been written here.
> Can anyone specify all the LKS 004 upgrades that have improved the sound of the DAC?



My documentation starts on page 171 of this thread, but it's all for the latest generation.

It's too bad that LKS stopped using a high current regulator for the clock.  I would have liked to use an OCXO, but found that the Accusilicon was absolutely excellent.


----------



## AuxInput (Oct 4, 2020)

ti5002000 said:


> Hi guys
> 
> I am thinking of replacing all the LM317 regulators for a better ones.
> 
> ...



I have thought about swapping out the LM317 with the Sparkos Labs SS1117 regulators (they are their discrete versions of LM317).  However, it requires some modification on the 1st and 2nd pins.  The Sparkos is internally set for a specific voltage (you can choose any voltage you want when you order them).  So you will have to remove both of the SMD resistors in front of the LM317's and replace only one of them with a wire (the pin 1 ground leg) so that the regulators are properly grounded.  I could not tell you what each of the three LM317's regulate for.  You will have to test the output pin 2 leg on each to see how each one is configured for.

I have used the Sparkos discrete versions of the LM78xx/LM79xx regulators.  They are absolutely excellent!!

I tried the NewClassD discrete regulators once.  I was severely dissappointed.  The made the equipment sound very low res and low end junk.  I was not impressed with their discrete op amps either.


----------



## ti5002000

AuxInput said:


> I have thought about swapping out the LM317 with the Sparkos Labs SS1117 regulators (they are their discrete versions of LM317).  However, it requires some modification on the 1st and 2nd pins.  The Sparkos is internally set for a specific voltage (you can choose any voltage you want when you order them).  So you will have to remove both of the SMD resistors in front of the LM317's and replace only one of them with a wire (the pin 1 ground leg) so that the regulators are properly grounded.  I could not tell you what each of the three LM317's regulate for.  You will have to test the output pin 2 leg on each to see how each one is configured for.
> 
> I have used the Sparkos discrete versions of the LM78xx/LM79xx regulators.  They are absolutely excellent!!
> 
> I tried the NewClassD discrete regulators once.  I was severely dissappointed.  The made the equipment sound very low res and low end junk.  I was not impressed with their discrete op amps either.



Hi

Thanks for the answer and the help

The thing is to know what fixed voltage sparkos i have to order, i have to check after the lm317 adjuster voltage resistor and you have to follow all the pcb tracing to the next pad and then check the voltage which can be hard to figure and takes some time which i don´t have much. That´s why i asked if someone had made it, in order to save me all that time.


----------



## AuxInput

ti5002000 said:


> The thing is to know what fixed voltage sparkos i have to order, i have to check after the lm317 adjuster voltage resistor and you have to follow all the pcb tracing to the next pad and then check the voltage which can be hard to figure and takes some time which i don´t have much. That´s why i asked if someone had made it, in order to save me all that time.



It's easy to figure out what fixed voltages you need.  Just use a multi-meter and measure the voltage on pin 2 of each LM317.  That is essentially "VOUT".  You might want to get a set of test leads with have a pin-point end instead of a large end.  You definitely don't want to accidentally create a connection between the pins of the LM317 (this would cause sparks).

When you want to replace the LM317 with the Sparkos, use the circuit diagram on this page as a reference:

https://www.circuitstoday.com/few-lm317-voltage-regulator-circuits


Both SMD resistors in front of each LM317 need to be removed.  However, you need to short one of them with a straight wire to allow pin 1 of the LM317 to connect to ground.  This is "R1" on that diagram.  Since I haven't actually done this, I could not tell you which resistor is which on the LKS board.


----------



## AuxInput

In previous pages, somebody referenced Belleson's newer regulators.  They do have an SPX17, which looks very promising and has excellent ripple rejection (better than Sparkos).  That comparison graph also showed how bad the NewClassD regulators were, lol.

I have not tried the Belleson SPX.  Seems like there are a couple minor differences.  The Belleson SPX does not internally limit current - it will allow current to pass through up to maximum of 3A before something blows.

The Sparkos is internally limited to 1.5A even if the consuming circuit tries to use more.  The Sparkos is also based on their Class A discrete opamps, so the regulator circuit runs a similar Class A type circuit.


----------



## DBX1 (Oct 11, 2020)

Hello all.

I am an LKS 004 user and would like to get the most out of this unit.  After reading the pages of mods that took place starting from page 171 onwards,  I was thinking of the following:

Upgrading the crystal on the main board
Adding a heatsink to the transistors on the main board (my transistors are above the board, not below) using a peice of aluminum across 4 transistors each.  This will work for the front if I bend them downwards,  but leaving the back in tact.
If I remove the front transistors and place them on the bottom of the board,  I could leave the transistors closest to the caps in place,  and bend them downwards away from the caps so that I can place an aluminum bar on them to remove heat properly.
Adding a dedicated toroidal for the usb board - what voltage amperage should I used?  6.5v/1a ?  My usb card has the tape around it to not touch the main chassis
Possibly replace the 8 caps i read around the I/v stage to improve bass slam.

I think this is enough to start on making improvements. I am not sure which version of the unit I have.  My revision on the display shows 18.08s.  I know this is the firmware release.

Are there any other simple improvements I should try?  And where would I find the board revision number should I need to communicate that here?

Also,  how easy is it to desolder the throughhole components on this unit?   For small holes,  my experience has been that the solder does not always completely come off a component cleanly,  or some gets stuck in the throughhole, making it difficult to remove the solder,  to allow sthe new component into the throughhole. Any techniques you guys use?   My main source of desoldering is using a solder wick.

I know B0bb and Auxinput did the most mods to their units and are the most knowledgable to comment.  I am good with a soldering iron, and know electronic parts.  But I am nowhere near as knowledgable in EE as they are.

Any additional comments would be most appreciated.

Thanks all.


----------



## DBX1

Hi once again all.  I understand the latest firmware for the LKS MH-DA004 is 1912 as per Jinbo at Musetek.  I have the firmware as provided by Jinbo.  After applying the firmware to both the USB and the CPU (or mainboard) firmware.  After flashing the unit, the display shows the firmware update to 18.08s.  Getting the firmware took some time after communicating with Jinbo.  Trying to work with Jinbo about this concern does take some time.  Can anyone provide insight as to why this is or how to get the unit up to its latest firmware update ?

Thanks again all !


----------



## piaseczek

DBX1 said:


> Hello all.
> 
> I am an LKS 004 user and would like to get the most out of this unit.  After reading the pages of mods that took place starting from page 171 onwards,  I was thinking of the following:
> 
> Thanks all.



Hi, you will find the instructions from b0bb what to mod here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...s-double-impact.840938/page-101#post-14551102
and here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...s-double-impact.840938/page-102#post-14553424


----------



## Lennym (Oct 11, 2020)

One very simple mod, the benefits I could hear, was to place copper sheets so as to separate the transformers from the rest of the circuit.  Some did it very neatly.  There are pictures in the thread.  Some, like me--not so neat.  But it works well.  Some suggested other materials.


----------



## b0bb (Oct 11, 2020)

DBX1 said:


> Hello all.
> 
> I am an LKS 004 user and would like to get the most out of this unit.  After reading the pages of mods that took place starting from page 171 onwards,  I was thinking of the following:
> 
> ...


Replacing the crystal is quite straightforward.
If you have an early version it may be possible to use a crystal with a built-in oven. Post a photo of your unit around the crystal and its voltage regulator.

Another option is to change out the rectifiers in the TO-220 style package  with conventional schottky diodes. Vishay makes a fully insulated diode for the job
Below is the one from the 003, don't have a photo of the 004







Take care not to short out the DAC when adding the heatsink for the transistors. Bending them may cause stress fractures between the legs and the plastic body.
Notice extremely short leads, avoid extending them with wire, it will affect the performance .
I used a clip-on heat sink, the most important thing is to keep the output transistor pairs thermally coupled

Note the gold insulating tape in the photos











It is best to avoid the solder wick to minimize damage to the board, I use a combination of a hot-air wand to heat up the large board and desoldering gun.
On the low end, Hakko make a good desoldering gun (FR-301), a temp controlled hot-air gun from a hardware store works, get a unit with a proper temp readout.

If you want to get the good stuff ($$$), there is Pace, JBC and Metcal in addition to Hakko. This is what I use.

6.5V/1A is marginal get at least 7V but no more than 10V for the USB board transformer.

Get a little dongle that breaks the USB ground connection like the Wyred4Sound Recovery or iFi iUSB 3.0 Nano
I have the Recovery and the older iFi iUSB 2.0 micro.

Keep in mind that modding the 004 will start revealing flaws in the source itself, also consider specialized music players like the SOTM-SMS200, they are a cut above the ordinary PC. This is an expensive route.

If you have the software skills an Intel NUC with the latest low latency linux 5.8 kernel is a lower cost way to go.

I have both the SMS-200Ultra  and a NUC8i3.

The NUC is better for a HQPlayer endpoint running DSD512.

If you want to get the best out of the 004, supply DSD512 input with proper DSD software processing, the built in processing on the ES9038Pro is quite good but external software processing can beat it.


----------



## b0bb (Oct 11, 2020)

DBX1 said:


> Hi once again all.  I understand the latest firmware for the LKS MH-DA004 is 1912 as per Jinbo at Musetek.  I have the firmware as provided by Jinbo.  After applying the firmware to both the USB and the CPU (or mainboard) firmware.  After flashing the unit, the display shows the firmware update to 18.08s.  Getting the firmware took some time after communicating with Jinbo.  Trying to work with Jinbo about this concern does take some time.  Can anyone provide insight as to why this is or how to get the unit up to its latest firmware update ?
> 
> Thanks again all !


Check with Jinbo, 18.08 is the microcontroller firmware version and is specific for your board, there are 3-4 different 004 boards


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> I wonder why they put silver mica in the I/V conversation stage ?


LKS made a good choice here. The other thing that is better is polystyrene but that is getting to very hard to find.
These caps were the first choice in old analog radio frontends operating in the 20-50MHz range


----------



## Deolum

Guys whats your experience with Matrix X-Sabre Pro vs this one? I'd feed it via usb by sotm Sms 200.


----------



## DBX1 (Oct 12, 2020)

Hi Lennym -

I saw the copper sheets wrapped around the toroidal before posting my queries.  I am thinking of doing that instead of placing the toroids in a separate enclosure.  I have to find where I can get copper sheets.

Thanks for the advice.

dbx


----------



## DBX1

b0bb said:


> Replacing the crystal is quite straightforward.
> If you have an early version it may be possible to use a crystal with a built-in oven. Post a photo of your unit around the crystal and its voltage regulator.
> 
> Another option is to change out the rectifiers in the TO-220 style package  with conventional schottky diodes. Vishay makes a fully insulated diode for the job
> ...




B0bb -

Thanks for your advice. Here are some things that I have at my disposal:
I have a Weller analogue tempurature controlled solder gun. Love it.
I have an iFi iPurifier Version 3 with an Audioquest Black USB Cable.
I have a dedicated PC that stores 44.1K files which i cut over from my vinyl turntable 15 years ago. It also stores my ripped CDs as well. The PC houses a JCat USB Femto Card which I use for playback. I am building an external linear power supply for the USB Femto Card. Yes, my PC case has fans in it - 6 in the case - 3 on the CPU, 2 on the video card. 
Dont care. The fans looks sooo cool !!! The fans for the case and the CPU have noise suppressors from a Chinese company I purchased years ago.
I am pleased with the sound that is offered from the computer into my system.

Understood that when making such changes, that the LKS 004 will reveal flaws with the recordings.

I will also take your advice and source a 7-9V toroidal for my USB.

I should invest in a desoldering gun as you suggested.

Thanks much

dbx


----------



## Lennym

DBX1 said:


> Hi Lennym -
> 
> I saw the copper sheets wrapped around the toroidal before posting my queries.  I am thinking of doing that instead of placing the toroids in a separate enclosure.  I have to find where I can get copper sheets.
> 
> ...



I did a search on ebay when I bought.  Same place is still there: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Copper-She...512639?hash=item420201c7bf:g:LmgAAMXQVT9Sv0oD


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb,
do you think that these polish discrete voltage regulators can be used in our DACs?
https://muzgdiy.wordpress.com/vx-x-voltage-regulators-versions-explanation/

and the power supplies:
https://muzgdiy.wordpress.com/power-supplies/


----------



## DBX1

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> do you think that these polish discrete voltage regulators can be used in our DACs?
> https://muzgdiy.wordpress.com/vx-x-voltage-regulators-versions-explanation/
> 
> ...



Hi Piaseczek.

I am curious as to why we would want to replace the voltage regulators inside our units ? Would it be for less noise ?

Thanks.


----------



## DBX1

Lennym said:


> I did a search on ebay when I bought.  Same place is still there: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Copper-She...512639?hash=item420201c7bf:g:LmgAAMXQVT9Sv0oD




Thanks Lennym. I will check these out. This is something I should do as it wont require me ripping out and replacing components. Do you think applying copper sheets around the toroid is just as effective as placing them in a separate enclosure ?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> do you think that these polish discrete voltage regulators can be used in our DACs?
> https://muzgdiy.wordpress.com/vx-x-voltage-regulators-versions-explanation/
> 
> ...


The 3pin LM317 regulators are for the supplementary systems (microcontroller, front panel display, front keypad etc)
I do not think it is worth spending any money or effort upgrading those.

Regulator v6.1 on your list is based on the TI TPS7A47, that is a known quantity, the rest have no data, I would not use on the 004 unless more is known about them.


----------



## piaseczek

DBX1 said:


> Hi Piaseczek.
> 
> I am curious as to why we would want to replace the voltage regulators inside our units ? Would it be for less noise ?
> 
> Thanks.



Yes, for less noise.
I am also thinking about modding my power amplifier with the better voltage regulators.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> The 3pin LM317 regulators are for the supplementary systems (microcontroller, front panel display, front keypad etc)
> I do not think it is worth spending any money or effort upgrading those.
> 
> Regulator v6.1 on your list is based on the TI TPS7A47, that is a known quantity, the rest have no data, I would not use on the 004 unless more is known about them.



Thanks b0bb. 
The TPS7A47 regulator with the EI transformer on the same PCB looks like the best PSU for the amanero, am I right?

Here I have found some measurements:
https://muzgaudio.com/stabilizator-szeregowy-dyskretny-ver-3-2/


----------



## DBX1

AuxInput said:


> - replace stock 575 clock with Accusilicon AS318-B-100  (I'm glad to see more than one person using this clock now)



AuxInput - do you know where to get the Clock in the USA ? This is a mod I am interested in tackling. I placed an order for the copper sheets to be wrapped around the torroids. I will also place an order for a torroid for dedicated power to the USB board.

Also, the clocks on your USB board in one of the photos you posted - is that a mod you did on the USB board, or is that a board you purchased from LKS ?

I think these are the only mods I will tackle on this unit for now since the sound is so good. And of course - I will tackle twisting the wires from the torroids to power the board.

Thanks.

dbx


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Thanks b0bb.
> The TPS7A47 regulator with the EI transformer on the same PCB looks like the best PSU for the amanero, am I right?
> 
> Here I have found some measurements:
> https://muzgaudio.com/stabilizator-szeregowy-dyskretny-ver-3-2/


These are not suitable, the best place for the regulator is to be right on top of the usb interface. LKS made a regulator for this purpose.
Get the LT3042 version supply if you do not already have it
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LT3042-pow...969704?hash=item3fe3c04aa8:g:NGcAAOSwFe5X2BkN

You will need a small 10VA transformer outputting 7-9V AC


----------



## Forgisound

Hi,
I have a new impression about the operation of the LKS 004.
Ayon Crossfire is looking for a replacement for some sockets so I use a refreshed Carver C500. 
The amplifier has an input sensitivity control, but it is an output amplifier.
LKS works with volume control on.  This combination is great, while the Carver is set to low sensitivity and the DAC amplified close to the maximum (-10 to 0). 
However, when I increase the sensitivity of the amplifier and decrease the volume of the DAC, the sound gets very bad. 
So, the DAC should be used at high volume.
If you can't, try reducing the sensitivity of the amplifier.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> The 3pin LM317 regulators are for the supplementary systems (microcontroller, front panel display, front keypad etc)
> I do not think it is worth spending any money or effort upgrading those.
> 
> Regulator v6.1 on your list is based on the TI TPS7A47, that is a known quantity, the rest have no data, I would not use on the 004 unless more is known about them.


Hi guys, I had a rest time looking for solutions to the noises of my dac, I'm back here. I agree with the above mentioned above, at low volume this dac is not perfect it sounds worse (louder and worse sound scene). My experiences when changing the LM317 coincide with what B0bb says does not have a significant effect on the sq, I can see that the output voltages of my replacement modules are ultra stable and theoretically ultra clean but little else, I measured the output voltages of each LM317 and configure each module to have exactly the same. Bobb there is some scheme on ES9038pro where you can see the implementation of the I / V part and the anti-alaising filtering part?, I can see in my spectrum analyzer a lot of noise in DSD music in the area between 20khz to 100khz, which does not It is in PCM, I already have the noises at the output of the I / V resistor. I was able to talk to Jimbo about my problem and finally after several recommendations (replacement of silver-micas) the solution is to send the dac to China for verification, which is totally uneconomical due to shipping costs and return customs. I keep trying to fix it on my own. By the way, why did they put this 10uf / 500v EPCOS capacitor, why this model with so much voltage?


----------



## b0bb

Forgisound said:


> Hi,
> I have a new impression about the operation of the LKS 004.
> Ayon Crossfire is looking for a replacement for some sockets so I use a refreshed Carver C500.
> The amplifier has an input sensitivity control, but it is an output amplifier.
> ...


Operate the LKS in fixed volume mode, use an analog preamp if you need volume control.

The DSP on the 9038PRO operates with 32bit precision, this is not nearly enough to properly scale the output signal,  problems manifest itself at the low volume settings.

Doing the DSP work externally on a PC+GPU and scaling the signal to the appropriate level before sending to the DAC works around this problem.

The PC floatng point processor (AVX)  operates at 64bits as does Nvidia's CUDA FP64


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> Hi guys, I had a rest time looking for solutions to the noises of my dac, I'm back here. I agree with the above mentioned above, at low volume this dac is not perfect it sounds worse (louder and worse sound scene). My experiences when changing the LM317 coincide with what B0bb says does not have a significant effect on the sq, I can see that the output voltages of my replacement modules are ultra stable and theoretically ultra clean but little else, I measured the output voltages of each LM317 and configure each module to have exactly the same. Bobb there is some scheme on ES9038pro where you can see the implementation of the I / V part and the anti-alaising filtering part?, I can see in my spectrum analyzer a lot of noise in DSD music in the area between 20khz to 100khz, which does not It is in PCM, I already have the noises at the output of the I / V resistor. I was able to talk to Jimbo about my problem and finally after several recommendations (replacement of silver-micas) the solution is to send the dac to China for verification, which is totally uneconomical due to shipping costs and return customs. I keep trying to fix it on my own. By the way, why did they put this 10uf / 500v EPCOS capacitor, why this model with so much voltage?


LKS uses the ESS reference circuit for the I/V, this is a dual virtual earth transimpedance converter.
The LKS003 thread has the schematic, no change for 004

If you are observing noise in DSD mode but not in PCM mode, something is wrong with the DSD data stream you are supplying to the DAC or the DSD DPLL is broken. There are separate DPLLs for PCM and DSD.


----------



## b0bb

@ESL57 

Check the output pins on the XLR connectors to see if you have a DC  offset between the +ve and -ve phases (differential mode) and between +ve and ground, -ve and ground ( common mode)

A DC offset voltage on any of the above may interact with the DSD output mode if the modulator used to the create the output is not setup properly, one of the undesirable side effects is a burst of noise due to shifting DC levels.

This is not seen on PCM output as the chip does the conversion to DSD and it takes the common mode offset into account.
The big cap you asked about is the AC bypass for the common mode offset reference voltage.

The offset can be trimmed by the 4 adjustable trimmer resistors near the input transistor pair, please take extreme care as they can be adjusted 10-20 times before needing replacement.
This might be one reason you were asked to return the DAC to LKS for inspection.


----------



## DBX1

Does the usb port have an ac to dc rectifier built in?   I am going to purchase a seperate toriod for the usb device. 

Thanks.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> @ESL57
> 
> Check the output pins on the XLR connectors to see if you have a DC  offset between the +ve and -ve phases (differential mode) and between +ve and ground, -ve and ground ( common mode)
> 
> ...


Thank you very much B0bb for your clarifications and very valuable information. I adjusted the 4 10k trimmers to obtain 0v DC in each balanced output and the 2 10k trimmers to also obtain 0v in the unbalanced lines, the audible noises in recordings with low level in DSD are always there the same, in other models of dac that I have this does not happen. I just have a big doubt, I did this DC offset adjustment with the dac unlocked (no external signal), now I think it is correct ?, or should I look for a DSD file with a stable signal for example "DSD 1Khz 0db" or something like that? Maybe LKS has a different method of offset adjustment at the factory? the offset varies with the audio signal when I measure it and I can see and measure that the noises coincide with variations in the DC levels on all the outputs. I asked about the great 10uf EPCOS capacitor because in the following generations of 004 dac, it is no longer there and I do not know the value and specifications of the newest ones. I still think that something or some value was changed in the later versions, I have read the same comments from users with my problem in the version of early 2017.


----------



## oldearwax

DBX1 said:


> Does the usb port have an ac to dc rectifier built in?   I am going to purchase a seperate toriod for the usb device.


Yes,  if you have  this board  
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LT3042-pow...969704?hash=item3fe3c04aa8:g:NGcAAOSwFe5X2BkN
piggy back on top of the Amanero usb board.
It says:
  Adaptation 6 ~ 12V AC input, the output voltage is 5V / 1.5A


----------



## gbickle

I got an MH-DA004 recently and was just looking at some quick easy mods. I was thinking just copper shielding around the two PS, twist the 3 pairs of power wires going into the board from each PS, and maybe mount the PS on rubber or wood. Would that be a good start based on the photos I have attached?

Thanks.


----------



## AuxInput

DBX1 said:


> AuxInput - do you know where to get the Clock in the USA ? This is a mod I am interested in tackling. I placed an order for the copper sheets to be wrapped around the torroids. I will also place an order for a torroid for dedicated power to the USB board.
> 
> Also, the clocks on your USB board in one of the photos you posted - is that a mod you did on the USB board, or is that a board you purchased from LKS ?



Sorry, I don't think they are available in the USA.  I got them from Audiophonics in Europe:

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/comp...00-ultra-low-jitter-clock-100mhz-p-13728.html

But it looks like they are out of stock of the 100 mhz clocks.  You might try reaching out to Audio-gd to see if they are willing to sell one separately.  They use the same Accusillicon clocks in their DACs.

I did not do any modifications to the USB card.  That is the latest version from LKS.


----------



## AuxInput

FUTURE UPGRADES...

I just recently determined from several tests that Panasonic FR/FM caps really are not the best caps.  In 3 different scenarios, I found that Nichicon caps (such as KW, PM or HD) were significantly better.  My last test was on an Elfidelity AXF-104 PCI filter card.  I have two, one loaded with 330uf Nichicon PM and the other loaded with Panasonic FM.  The Nichicon just gave significantly better video AND audio quality.  This was a helper card for digital source (computer).

So, next project will be removing those four 1000uf Panasonic FR post-regulator caps in front of the LM317's and replacing them with Nichicon PM.  I will also be replacing the LM317 with the Sparkos discrete LM1117's.   This will require removal/customization of the SMD resistors in front.  Even though b0bb says these are not critical, I think they supply power to all digital sections (S/PDIF receiver, DAC vref, etc.).  I'll update all in about a month or so after results.


----------



## DBX1

I've taken a picture of my USB Board.  It is being powered by an umbilical cord coming direct from the power supply.  

So in pursuit of elevating the sound on the USB input - the questions are:
is it still beneficial to purchase a separate power supply for the USB Audio Board ?
and if so, is it still necessary to get a rectification board from the power supply to the USB Audio Board (from ebay links as others have stated) ?

Looking at my USB Audio Board - it looks like there is rectification being performed. Unless I am being naive here.

Thanks everyone for any input that you offer !!!


----------



## AuxInput

DBX1 said:


> Looking at my USB Audio Board - it looks like there is rectification being performed. Unless I am being naive here.



The black/red wires are coming from one of the two main transformers and just supply A/C at a lower voltage level.  Yes, you are correct that there are rectification and voltage regulator on this card.  This is essentially the power supply card for the USB input.  The USB card should be mounted directly underneath this.  

b0bb has had success in installing a separate small transformer for powering this USB board.  I can't remember what specification he used.  But you will need to wire that into the main power switch so that power gets switched on.  I tested my USB input and I like the BNC coax input a lot better.  However, I'm driving it from a crap motherboard.  The JCAT USB card is on my future list.

I don't know how good this usb input is.  I don't know if you want to spend a lot, but a USB interface might be a lot better.  Options are the Singxer SU-6.  Audio-gd has the DI-20 and DI-20HE, both which look excellent.


----------



## DBX1

AuxInput said:


> The black/red wires are coming from one of the two main transformers and just supply A/C at a lower voltage level.  Yes, you are correct that there are rectification and voltage regulator on this card.  This is essentially the power supply card for the USB input.  The USB card should be mounted directly underneath this.
> 
> b0bb has had success in installing a separate small transformer for powering this USB board.  I can't remember what specification he used.  But you will need to wire that into the main power switch so that power gets switched on.  I tested my USB input and I like the BNC coax input a lot better.  However, I'm driving it from a crap motherboard.  The JCAT USB card is on my future list.
> 
> I don't know how good this usb input is.  I don't know if you want to spend a lot, but a USB interface might be a lot better.  Options are the Singxer SU-6.  Audio-gd has the DI-20 and DI-20HE, both which look excellent.



Thanks AuxInput for the detailed explanation !!!

I can easily source a dedicated small torroid for dedicated USB Power inside this unit. I will have to think about how to add the torroids main AC input into the power switch.
I think I can well live with the inboard USB option it instead of going with another more expensive outboard USB option at this time.

I can tell you that the JCat Femto USB Card is a great card. They have a newer card that is about twice the cost.


----------



## b0bb (Oct 24, 2020)

DBX1 said:


> I've taken a picture of my USB Board.  It is being powered by an umbilical cord coming direct from the power supply.
> 
> So in pursuit of elevating the sound on the USB input - the questions are:
> is it still beneficial to purchase a separate power supply for the USB Audio Board ?
> ...



Your board is already running on its own transformer winding, using a separate transformer only brings a small incremental improvement.

The weakest link is the power supply board.
The power supply on your USB card is one is based on the opamp running in an analog feedback loop.
The opamp is the OP177 with a closed loop bandwidth of 600kHz, this is pretty poor, the regulator stops being effective at about 300kHz.

Get the LT3042 supply in the ebay links posted previously, these things are effective to 10MHz +.
This is a better way to get the improvement.

In its current form the performance of the USB interface is very poor (utterly pathetic really) due to the poorly designed regulator board, leading more than a few 004 owners to use SPDIF.

Without modification the LT3042 regulator board will open up the soundstage and the vocals will gain an increase in presence
Bass becomes deeper, most importantly the board will work in native DSD512 without hiccups and dropouts.

The ebay seller I bought the additional board from said customers keep asking for it, it has been available on sale for almost 7 years.
This is very unusual as the Chinese vendors rapidly stop selling devices that do not meet the mark when there is a new version.
In this case most of the attempted replacements are history

The board can be further rebuilt to improve its performance, in that form it handily beat my SU-1 over I2S
This uses OSCON polymers on the input filter, vishay low voltage schottky diodes and a tantalum polymer for output bypassed by a MLCC cap  and rubycon acrylic caps


----------



## piaseczek (Oct 24, 2020)

gbickle said:


> I got an MH-DA004 recently and was just looking at some quick easy mods. I was thinking just copper shielding around the two PS, twist the 3 pairs of power wires going into the board from each PS, and maybe mount the PS on rubber or wood. Would that be a good start based on the photos I have attached?
> 
> Thanks.



It's a good start.
I've marked the next steps for you + Cystek replacement.
It's based on the b0bb's experience with the LKS 004 and 003. Thanks b0bb.


----------



## piaseczek

It's interesting that the DC bypass for the common mode DAC reference voltage in the 005 is changed to 0,1uF. In the 004 it is 10uF.


----------



## piaseczek (Oct 24, 2020)

The hybrid polymer capacitors similar to the Nichicon FPCAPs are everywhere.


----------



## gbickle

piaseczek said:


> It's a good start.
> I've marked the next steps for you + Cystek replacement.
> It's based on the b0bb's experience with the LKS 004 and 003. Thanks b0bb.



Thanks. I did the copper power supply shielding and twisting pairs and noticed a very subtle improvement so I will just leave it as it is now. Already have the upgraded USB power supply so I doubt I will get much more out of it with my system and hearing


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> Your board is already running on its own transformer winding, using a separate transformer only brings a small incremental improvement.
> 
> The weakest link is the power supply board.
> The power supply on your USB card is one is based on the opamp running in an analog feedback loop.
> ...


I would love to know more about what you do to rebuild it


----------



## LKDog (Oct 28, 2020)

Is this vendor for the *LKS MH-DA004 *legitimate?
This looks like the upgraded USB board version and it is a couple hundred less than other places.
Are there other charges like customs, etc in shipping to USA.??

*LKS MH DA004 Ebay listing*


----------



## AuxInput

There are a couple different sellers on ebay selling DA004.  This may actually be the standard USB edition, as the same seller is also selling a "Amanero USB Flagship" version for $1549.

I bought mine from shenzhenaudio.  Their current price is only $50-60 more than this ebay seller, so I wouldn't think the ebay offer is really that great.  I have seen shenzhenaudio go on a 8% discount sale at times for the DA004.


----------



## LKDog

AuxInput said:


> There are a couple different sellers on ebay selling DA004.  This may actually be the standard USB edition, as the same seller is also selling a "Amanero USB Flagship" version for $1549.
> 
> I bought mine from shenzhenaudio.  Their current price is only $50-60 more than this ebay seller, so I wouldn't think the ebay offer is really that great.  I have seen shenzhenaudio go on a 8% discount sale at times for the DA004.



Thanks for the reply.


----------



## piaseczek

Whitigir said:


> I would love to know more about what you do to rebuild it



here you will find the BOM made by b0bb:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-8#post-12035366


----------



## piaseczek

B0bb,
Could you tell if 5v for the amanero PSU is provided from the analog toroidal transformer?


----------



## b0bb (Oct 31, 2020)

Whitigir said:


> I would love to know more about what you do to rebuild it


Here is a before and after picture to highlight the changed components  (C3,C4,C5,C6, PSU input filter C2,C8,C9,C10 and the 4 diodes)
USB socket changed out to something that gave more grip.
The shield on the replacement USB connector is a continuous piece of metal unlike the original which is made up of several pieces.
Kapton tape to insulate the socket from the chassis metalwork.

Before:





After:






C5 and C6 replaced by a parallel combo of a MLCC cap and Acrylic film plastic cap.
The caps are joined by brazing the solder to keep inductance as low as possible.

This is more complicated than the usual thru-hole cap swap, requiring fine control of temperature to prevent damage to the plastic cap.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> Could you tell if 5v for the amanero PSU is provided from the analog toroidal transformer?


On mine it is the transformer closest to the front panel, this powers the auxillary parts.
Do not use the analog side transformer, the USB interface will have a lot of noise from the board itself and that coming from the PC or host.
USB is on the dirty side of the isolation barrier.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> On mine it is the transformer closest to the front panel, this powers the auxillary parts.
> Do not use the analog side transformer, the USB interface will have a lot of noise from the board itself and that coming from the PC or host.
> USB is on the dirty side of the isolation barrier.



Thanks b0bb. 
The analog side transformer powers also the ESS9038s?


----------



## piaseczek

The newest version of the lt3042 PSU looks like this.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> The analog side transformer powers also the ESS9038s?


Yes


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb,
will it be an acceptable compromise to replace the marked capacitors to the Nichicons Fpcap? Values are ok?
I don't feel very confident with the SMD soldering...


----------



## b0bb (Oct 31, 2020)

piaseczek said:


> The newest version of the lt3042 PSU looks like this.


The later versions are simplified.
Add heatshrink on the  ferrite input inductor to dampen any movement of the windings

The schematic is lifted from the Analog devices application notes, on mine the  external transistor is the D45VH10G.




The analysis of the operation is discussed is detail here.
https://www.analog.com/en/technical...high-psrr-lt3042-200ma-linear-regulator.html#

The use of the PNP transistor is to improve the regulator response when there is a sudden demand for current by the load.
This is very common with digital circuits, this is one reason why specialized RF LDO type regulators like the LT3042  should be used for digital loads.

PNP external transistor on the LT3042 recovers from the transient demand, approx 10x faster when load current suddenly spikes

PNP external transistor






NPN external transistor






Expensive low noise discrete regulators designed for slow linear audio applications are poorly suited for the task.
LKS tried this approach to replace the original LT3042 board with low noise audio type regulators  and it ruined the performance of the enhanced usb board.


----------



## b0bb (Oct 31, 2020)

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> will it be an acceptable compromise to replace the marked capacitors to the Nichicons Fpcap? Values are ok?
> I don't feel very confident with the SMD soldering...



The FPcaps do not come in 2200uF values, only the OSCONs go this high in value for the voltage range (16V), do not use FPCaps to replace the one on the input filter

As for the output cap, the perfomance of thru hole caps are not as good as SMD high ripple current polymer caps like the Kemet tantalum polymer I used.

If the ripple current rating of the output cap is inadequate, the transient recovery of the regulator will suffer.
The Kemet cap is rated for 8A transient ripple current.

Transient recovery to a sudden load current demand is more important than low noise on digital loads like the USB interface.

(In plain terms if your regulator is too slow, the USB interface performance will be worse than SPDIF, do it right and it will outperform an external USB I2S interface like the Singxer SU-1)


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> The FPcaps do not come in 2200uF values, only the OSCONs go this high in value for the voltage range (16V), do not use FPCaps to replace the one on the input filter
> 
> As for the output cap, the perfomance of thru hole caps are not as good as SMD high ripple current polymer caps like the Kemet tantalum polymer I used.
> 
> ...



I will try to solder the kemet, your explanation is great as always. Very educative and fascinating.
https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/KEMET/T530X337M010ATE004?qs=r/VmNO8Tjq6jQ3BMwQ8ZOw==

I've found the 1000uF 16V Fpcap (6.1A each), newer OSCONs are better?
https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/RNE1C102MDN1PH?qs=Ajmft%2BTTukHMsXXwm3pJ2Q==


----------



## b0bb (Oct 31, 2020)

piaseczek said:


> I will try to solder the kemet, your explanation is great as always. Very educative and fascinating.
> https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/KEMET/T530X337M010ATE004?qs=r/VmNO8Tjq6jQ3BMwQ8ZOw==
> 
> I've found the 1000uF 16V Fpcap (6.1A each), newer OSCONs are better?
> https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/RNE1C102MDN1PH?qs=Ajmft%2BTTukHMsXXwm3pJ2Q==


FPCaps perform better than OSCONs , 1000uF/16V is acceptable, give it a try, RNE FPCap is new.

The link to the Kemet part is suitable

An easier swap would be to replace the 4 rectifier diodes with the Vishay low voltage Schottky diodes.

C6 is the bypass for for the SET pin, this sets the reference voltage for the regulator.
When you get enough confidence, that cap should be replaced. It is way too thin and you can do better to get a wider SMD package to reduce ESL.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> C6 is the bypass for for the SET pin, this sets the reference voltage for the regulator.
> When you get enough confidence, that cap should be replaced. It is way too thin and you can do better to get a wider SMD package to reduce ESL.



Is there any easier to solder alternative for the C6? X7R alone will be ok?

https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Taiyo-Yuden/EMK325B7106KNHT?qs=CNQs48zzdnqkbhcq2aVnFw==


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Is there any easier to solder alternative for the C6? X7R alone will be ok?


No, the bypass needs to operate from DC-10MHz, the plastic cap helps below 100kHz where the ceramic does not do well.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> No, the bypass needs to operate from DC-10MHz, the plastic cap helps below 100kHz where the ceramic does not do well.



Ok, I will practice the SMD soldering and C4 and C6 will be the same as in your BOM. Thank you.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> The red one is the output filtering for the 1.2V supply to the DAC
> The black one is the DC bypass for the common mode DAC reference voltage
> 
> 
> ...



b0bb,
have you tried these ideas in your LKS mh004?


----------



## Xoverman (Nov 1, 2020)

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> have you tried these ideas in your LKS mh004?


Hi B0bb, do You still know the component part number and value ?
What do You think about the change to Mundorf 0.1uF in the 005.
I would be afraid of RF pic up because of its physical size.


----------



## b0bb (Nov 1, 2020)

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> have you tried these ideas in your LKS mh004?


The Tantalum  can be used on the 004 to bypass the common mode reference voltage.
The same ideas behind the bypass for the USB interface board can be applied here, which is the use of multiple types of capacitors with different dielectrics in parallel.

Solid bead tantalums like the yellow one in the pictures is getting hard to find.
They must not be connected the wrong way around and could explode if it happens


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Hi B0bb, do You still know the component part number and value ?
> What do You think about the change to Mundorf 0.1uF in the 005.
> I would be afraid of RF pic up because of its physical size.


The yellow bead tantalum is 47uF/16V

The large physical size and film foil construction of the Mundorf can cause problems with large ESL, not sure if the cap used a non-inductive type construction.
The top sample rate for DSD512 is 24.576MHz so the I/V will need a minimum of 50MHz bandwidth and the reference bypass must operate from DC-50MHz which is a potential problem for such a large film-foil type cap.

RF pickup is not too big of an issue, if the cap is installed correctly, however shielding is not effective in the presence of high powered low frequency EM like Qi wireless phone chargers operating between 80-300kHz which can operate up to 15W so leakage to surrounding electronics is a problem.


----------



## oldearwax

Xoverman said:


> Hi B0bb, do You still know the component part number and value ?
> What do You think about the change to Mundorf 0.1uF in the 005.
> I would be afraid of RF pic up because of its physical size.



If  your capacitor has an outer shield (casing), and the shield is connected to a leg (terminal) of your capacitor..
make sure that leg is connected to the lower impedance side of your circuit.
This applies to capacitors which are non-polarized.


----------



## DBX1

b0bb said:


> Your board is already running on its own transformer winding, using a separate transformer only brings a small incremental improvement.
> 
> The weakest link is the power supply board.
> The power supply on your USB card is one is based on the opamp running in an analog feedback loop.
> ...



OK, I just ordered the LM3042 USB Power Supply Board as B0bb suggested.  If I want to make an improvement to the board by replacing just the Diodes with the Vishay Diodes and adding a Wima Cap - as what B0bb did - since I would think these would be the easiest to replace - without making other mods, would the board be improved further, or do the Diode and Wima mod depend on the other components that were replaced ?

Thanks !!!


----------



## DBX1 (Nov 4, 2020)

OK, so I made a couple of "simple" mods to the unit.

I added copper shielding around the torroids. This was not easy to do as I had to cut the copper sheets and bend them to fit around the torroids.
I also added a thin damping barrier between the bottom plate of the torroids and the base plate of the unit in an attempt to decouple the torroid from the bottom plating. I also added a strip of clear packing tape onto the base plate where the torroidal plates sit on. This is an attempt to decouple the torroids further from the base plate. I am not certain if this will make an improvement (I have yet to listen to the unit it as I am still working on it).

I twisted the power supply leads going from the torroid to the main board as others did.  I twisted them in pairs and shrink wrapped each pair going into the board.

I also sliced a thin layer of packing tape to wrap around the I2S connector to decouple it from the back plate.

A couple of other items I plan to add is to add copper plating to the back side of the diodes located on the main front of the board as a heat sink - since I have copper sheets left over from the torroid project. I will need to purchase some thermal pads to add to this.

B0bb also added a heat sink to the back of a few transistors on the back side of the unit. I need to find out what he used and order them along with the thermal pads and the Vishay Diodes and a Wima Cap which will be used to power the new USB board once I receive it in December.

Again, I dont know if all the mods I already made above will make an improvement. I am sure someone will chime in if I am doing harm in using packing tape as a suppliment to decouple input connectors and power supply plates from the rest of the chassis.



So here are the pics as promised.
Twisted wires from the torroids to the motherboard
Shrinkwrap around the pairs of twisted wires to keep its form
Copper fortress around the torroids
Dampers on the bottom of plate of the torroids

What is not shown:
A layer of packing tape on the bottom part of the metal chassis where the power supply plates sit on
Packing tape covering around the I2S, to keep it from touching the back plate of the metal chassis

Still to do:
Adding Copper Plated Heat Sinks with thermal pads on the diodes located in front of the board (need to order the thermal pads
Upgrading USB Power Supply Delivery (should be delivered in December)
Adding Heat Sinks on the transistors located near the back plate of the unit - as what B0bb did

That will be all for now.


----------



## piaseczek

DBX1 said:


> OK, I just ordered the LM3042 USB Power Supply Board as B0bb suggested.  If I want to make an improvement to the board by replacing just the Diodes with the Vishay Diodes and adding a Wima Cap - as what B0bb did - since I would think these would be the easiest to replace - without making other mods, would the board be improved further, or do the Diode and Wima mod depend on the other components that were replaced ?
> 
> Thanks !!!



C4, C6 and the main filtering capacitors (the large ones near the inductor) are probably the most important.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Most of the ideas on the 003 can transfer over to the 004
> 
> 6) Nichicon FP caps for the clock and 9038 digital supply bypass



b0bb,
could you recommend specific values of the FPcaps for the Crystek and for the ess9038 digital power supply? 
Did I mark the digital and analog power supply correctly? Thank you.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> could you recommend specific values of the FPcaps for the Crystek and for the ess9038 digital power supply?
> Did I mark the digital and analog power supply correctly? Thank you.


No. ES9038Pro has multiple supply rails 3.3V and 1.2V, those are the ones you marked up.

LKS used FPCaps in some versions, post the picture of your actual unit


----------



## b0bb

DBX1 said:


> OK, I just ordered the LM3042 USB Power Supply Board as B0bb suggested.  If I want to make an improvement to the board by replacing just the Diodes with the Vishay Diodes and adding a Wima Cap - as what B0bb did - since I would think these would be the easiest to replace - without making other mods, would the board be improved further, or do the Diode and Wima mod depend on the other components that were replaced ?
> 
> Thanks !!!


The diodes make a smaller improvement compared to the SMD mods.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> No. ES9038Pro has multiple supply rails 3.3V and 1.2V, those are the ones you marked up.
> 
> LKS used FPCaps in some versions, post the picture of your actual unit




b0bb,
please take a look at the attached photos.
The PSU for the amanero will be changed after I will order the parts for upgrade.

The crystek and the ess9038 are powered by 47uF Nichicon KZ. The diodes are BYW29 200. The I/V resistor are already changed with great sound result.
Could you please advice which capacitors I should replace?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> please take a look at the attached photos.
> The PSU for the amanero will be changed after I will order the parts for upgrade.
> 
> ...



The caps with the red stripe are the FPCaps,  it says "FP" on the top of the can.
You could replace the Nichicon Muse caps on the XO regulator first to see if you like the result.
My unit is  different from yours, this is is something you have to try yourself.


----------



## piaseczek (Nov 6, 2020)

b0bb said:


> The caps with the red stripe are the FPCaps,  it says "FP" on the top of the can.
> You could replace the Nichicon Muse caps on the XO regulator first to see if you like the result.
> My unit is  different from yours, this is is something you have to try yourself.



What values for the Crystek would you recommend? 100uf, 470uf?
Currently there are 2 x 47uf.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> What values for the Crystek would you recommend? 100uf, 470uf?
> Currently there are 2 x 47uf.


Keep the same capacitance and voltage rating the same as the stock value, bigger is not better here.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Keep the same capacitance and voltage rating the same as the stock value, bigger is not better here.



Understood, I think that I should start with the clock replacement to the crystek 950x and then replace the capacitors to the Fpcaps.


----------



## piaseczek

New 100M 25PPM clock from FOX, but no jitter data available:
https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail...ldj7qu1ydrQG1afnrXLdGfA7/q36VnoAAChQSU78gkQ==


----------



## DBX1

piaseczek said:


> New 100M 25PPM clock from FOX, but no jitter data available:
> https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fox/FO5HSCDE1000-BULK?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtldj7qu1ydrQG1afnrXLdGfA7/q36VnoAAChQSU78gkQ==



Is this crystal better than the stock ?  And how many should be ordered ?  1, 2 ?


----------



## rettib2001

@b0bb 

Would I be right in thinking that you currently feed the LKS with a Singxer SU-6? 

Was the move away from the onboard usb or Singxer SU-1 purely motivated by a desire to improve sound quality or to eliminate operational issues? 

I have modified the Amanero USB board and I agree that it sounds easily as good as my modified SU-1 however I still get loud pops at times when dealing with upsampling in hqplayer, even the SU-1 isn't completely immune to this. It resulted in a burned out a woofer earlier this week, so even though I love the sound of dsd256 with the EC modulators I feel like I'm treading on eggshells each time I launch a track! 

Out of curiosity, have you attempted dsd1024 (cpu permitting)?


----------



## b0bb (Nov 15, 2020)

rettib2001 said:


> @b0bb
> 
> Would I be right in thinking that you currently feed the LKS with a Singxer SU-6?
> 
> ...



The SU-6 does not experience the loud bang when going from 44k to 48k based DSD, there is an incremental improvement in sound staging but the improvement does not justify the 80% price premium over the SU-1

48k DSD is not part of the official DSD spec, so this problem is not entirely unexpected, the 004 does not reliably lock to the 48k DSD rates causing a burst of noise during sample rate basis change (44<-->48k), this can be partially mitigated by setting the DPLL bandwidth to 9 or higher.

The SU-6 data stream is more stable so there are less issues with the 004 aquiring 48k DSD PLL lock (provided you use a short enough  HDMI cable)

The hqplayer problem can be avoided by specifying conversion to a fixed sampling frequency eg 22.58MHz for DSD512, you will lose the use of some filters that cannot do non-integer conversion eg sinc-M, turn off auto-rate family to enable this.
This will make hqplayer use a constant rate basis, and there will be no more loud bangs on the Amanero or SU-1.

I am waiting for a decent DSD1024 DDC unit to show up in the market, both the Singxer SU2 and Denafrips Iris and Gaia use non Xmos proprietary solutions requiring custom windows drivers.
(The marketing sheet says driverless on linux/mac but somehow neglects to mention the top sampling rates require the custom windows drivers)

The sound quality from the NAA running the Linux 5.8 low-latency kernel  is so for ahead of Win10, it was almost unbelievable, moving back to Win10 made me wonder if I was listening to the same audio chain.
This was achieved by stripping down the Ubuntu linux distribution to its bare essentials, this is not possible on Win10 and all that extra bloat from Microsoft takes a heavy toll on the sound quality, this makes Win10 a non option.


----------



## piaseczek

DBX1 said:


> Is this crystal better than the stock ?  And how many should be ordered ?  1, 2 ?



The jitter figures are the best for the stock but it's the 50PPM clock. 
According to b0bb and many others 950x sounds better despite worse parameters.

One piece can be  ordered.


----------



## piaseczek

Interesting comparison of clocks:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/close-in-jitter.1621/page-4#post-40559


----------



## rettib2001

b0bb said:


> The SU-6 does not experience the loud bang when going from 44k to 48k based DSD, there is an incremental improvement in sound staging but the improvement does not justify the 80% price premium over the SU-1
> 
> 48k DSD is not part of the official DSD spec, so this problem is not entirely unexpected, the 004 does not reliably lock to the 48k DSD rates causing a burst of noise during sample rate basis change (44<-->48k), this can be partially mitigated by setting the DPLL bandwidth to 9 or higher.
> 
> ...



Thanks for providing such an insightful reply b0bb.

As fas as HQplayer is concerned, I'll impletent the settings suggested.

Yes, bloated OS's do seem to have a big impact on sound quality.

I've actually been jumping between distros of linux, namely audiolinux and gentooplayer over the past few years.
Strangely enough I've also had great results with a corperate version of windows (LTSC) installed on a small optane drive with a few latency mods and using Audirvana + to upsample to DSD512 and send the audio via upnp to a linux endpoint.

I'll also be keeping an eye out for a DDC that can deal with DSD1024 natively, hopefully one will come along before too long!


----------



## piaseczek

Inside of the 575 Crystek.


----------



## piaseczek

It looks like the specification for the ABLNO was updated:
https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ABRACON/ABLNO-100000MHz?qs=%2BrH4t%2BeVZ2PJm9z5yYDaAg==

Typical Phase Noise (100MHz Carrier) Vdd=3.3V 
@ 10 Hz offset -88 dBc/Hz
@ 100 Hz offset -118 dBc/Hz 
@ 1,000 Hz offset -141 dBc/Hz 
@ 10,000 Hz offset -160 dBc/Hz 
@ 100,000 Hz offset -161 dBc/Hz 

All parts are tested:
"Maximum Phase Noise is verified on 100% of the parts at 25ºC ± 3ºC."

"The above specified Phase Noise & Jitter is with the oscillator device configured as a VCXO. In XO 
configuration, the Phase Noise will be slightly better at each offset between 10Hz and 10 kHz, by 
approximately -3dB to -5dB."


----------



## b0bb (Nov 11, 2020)

piaseczek said:


> Inside of the 575 Crystek.


That is the CCHD950 not the CCHD575, image turned around 180degrees









More pictures here : http://bbs.hifidiy.net/thread-1052376-1-1.html

The CCHD575 internals:



More pictures here: https://hallmanlabs.com/2018/01/23/revived-the-amanero-close-up-of-crystek-cchd-575/

The 950 crystal is approx 4x the size of the 575, this gives better mechanical stability and has higher thermal inertia making it less temp sensitive.
This is the key to why the 950 performs so well and why it is a common premium upgrade option in high end audio DACs.

The 2 types of internal construction is shown below, the 575 quartz crystal is very much smaller
http://www.txccrystal.com/term.html


----------



## b0bb

rettib2001 said:


> I've actually been jumping between distros of linux, namely audiolinux and gentooplayer over the past few years.
> Strangely enough I've also had great results with a corperate version of windows (LTSC) installed on a small optane drive with a few latency mods and using Audirvana + to upsample to DSD512 and send the audio via upnp to a linux endpoint.


The critical thing is to have the NAA endpoint on headless (no-GUI) linux and not windows to get the absolute best performance.

I originally used Signalyst's HQPLayerOS running a near-realtime Linux 5.4 kernel.
Ubuntu Server 20.x running the low latency 5.8 kernel actually produces a better sound quality, I am currently running 5.8.11.
Ubuntu Server is the most stripped down version they offer, I use this as a starting point to continue stripping down the distribution.
5.8 is still quite young, for example 5.8.12 is a step backward compared to 5.8.11 in the sound quality dept.

HQPlayer server is quite tolerant of the OS as long as there are enough CPU cycles.
If you shutdown and disable some of the more superflous junk like Windows Telemetry, Windows Search, Win10 starts to behave properly


----------



## oldearwax

b0bb said:


> ...
> If you shutdown and disable some of the more superflous junk like Windows Telemetry, Windows Search, Win10 starts to behave properly


Use 
https://github.com/Sycnex/Windows10Debloater
script to debloat windows 10.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> That is the CCHD950 not the CCHD575, image turned around 180degrees
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great info, thanks b0bb.

Do you know what is the difference between the crystek 950x and the 950? 
Jitter and the PPM values are the same, only the temperature range is wider for the 950x. 
Do you think that 950x is a selected version of the 950 and jitter could be lower?

950x:
https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail...HD-950X-25-100000?qs=L4klnTtkofObrfUJUtC8ig==
950:
https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail...CHD-950-25-100000?qs=SZbbnLfOXtbuC9IKo91wAw==


----------



## b0bb (Nov 12, 2020)

piaseczek said:


> Great info, thanks b0bb.
> 
> Do you know what is the difference between the crystek 950x and the 950?
> Jitter and the PPM values are the same, only the temperature range is wider for the 950x.
> ...



The wider temp range crystals show less frequency deviation with temp.
Regular crystals have the AT curve, the wider temp crystals have the flatter curve.

Assuming these were the actual curves for the Crysteks, the the X variant is represented by the flatter curve
CCHD950    has a max deviation 25 ppm@70ºC
CCHD950X  has a max deviation 25 ppm@85ºC

Drawing a horizontal line at -25ppm, this is 70ºC for the lowest curve, the curve above it at 70ºC shows a deviation of -22ppm. (These are not the actual Crystek curves but it illustrates the point).


----------



## Gilberto 62

Good afternoon gentlemen. Please see if anyone can shed some light on my digital path. In our dear LKS there are three aspects of configuration with which I am somewhat confused. Are:
-Swap DSD Channel ---------- Yes or No ...?
-DE-EMPH ----------------------- Yes or No ...?
-DoP --------------------------------Yes or No ...?
     Please, if anyone is kind enough to give me feedback, please note that I play ALL my music on Foobar by upsampling to DSD512.
     Thanks for your valuable help. A greeting from Barcelona....


----------



## b0bb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Good afternoon gentlemen. Please see if anyone can shed some light on my digital path. In our dear LKS there are three aspects of configuration with which I am somewhat confused. Are:
> -Swap DSD Channel ---------- Yes or No ...?
> -DE-EMPH ----------------------- Yes or No ...?
> -DoP --------------------------------Yes or No ...?
> ...


No to all 3 questions
De-emph was used in very early CD releases (early 1980s), this is a form of equalization best applied once at the time the CD  is added to the library.
If you are using the Amanero windows driver there is no need for DoP


----------



## Gilberto 62

As always, thank you very much b0bb and thanks to all of you who help others. By the way, I see no one talking in the forum about the Musetek da005, which appears to be the successor to our LKS 004 and from what I read it has a number of "creme de la creme" finishes and components. Do you really think that he is a big step forward from our current dac ...? It is a serious option as a replacement for 004 for which we do not have the capacity for the upgrades that are seen here in the forum ...? In other words, that Musetek 005 can be like a LKS 004 at the maximum upgrade level ...? Thank you for your valuable opinion and point of view ....


----------



## piaseczek

How to desolder the Crystek 575 without a hot air gun, great video:


----------



## piaseczek

And ChipQuik:


----------



## b0bb (Nov 15, 2020)

The screencap below shows the total memory (266MB) footprint of my audio endpoint running the HQPlayer NAA (/usr/sbin/networkaudiod)
Snapshot taken while audio being sent to DAC.

The machine is an Intel NUC8i3, the i3-8109U processor has 128MB of fast on-package eDRAM that can act as a fast L4 cache.
This gives just under 50% cache hit rate with the memory footprint shown above.

NAA performance increases linearly with a reduction of memory access latency.
Reduce the latency and the soundstaging and fine resolution of audio details improve, bass weight and slam increases.

The NUC is running CL14 DDR4-2400, with a shortest memory round trip time of 50ns (Measured with Intel's memory latency checker)
This is reduced by about 2x by the eDRAM with 50GB/s bidirectional bandwidth.





The 128MB eDRAM is lost to the GPU if the GPU driver is active.
This is one reason to not have a GUI running.

(The NUC is normally supplied with CL17 DDR4-2400, this has a latency of about 75ns)


----------



## masakun

[QUOTE = "littlexx26、投稿：15875665、メンバー：480232"]
最も簡単で非常に目立つのは、ヒューズを交換することです
[/見積もり]
ヒューズの許容アンペア数の違いによる音質の違いはありますか？手元に5Aのスローブローがあります。


----------



## littlexx26

masakun said:


> [QUOTE = "littlexx26、投稿：15875665、メンバー：480232"]
> 最も簡単で非常に目立つのは、ヒューズを交換することです
> [/見積もり]
> ヒューズの許容アンペア数の違いによる音質の違いはありますか？手元に5Aのスローブローがあります。


I never tried 5A but I don't think will have big difference if any.


----------



## markk02474

Gilberto 62 said:


> As always, thank you very much b0bb and thanks to all of you who help others. By the way, I see no one talking in the forum about the Musetek da005, which appears to be the successor to our LKS 004 and from what I read it has a number of "creme de la creme" finishes and components. Do you really think that he is a big step forward from our current dac ...? It is a serious option as a replacement for 004 for which we do not have the capacity for the upgrades that are seen here in the forum ...? In other words, that Musetek 005 can be like a LKS 004 at the maximum upgrade level ...? Thank you for your valuable opinion and point of view ....


I am awaiting delivery of a 005. It looks great, but I can't find a single review anywhere!


----------



## moss

markk02474 said:


> I am awaiting delivery of a 005. It looks great, but I can't find a single review anywhere!


I'm glad someone has ordered an 005.  Please post your first thoughts when you get a chance to listen.


----------



## sns109

Presently own Auralic Vega and LKS 004, 2019 edition, upgrade usb, no mods, SR orange fuse.  004 superior to Vega in every parameter of sound quality. Increased resolution most noticeable improvement, sound stage larger in every dimension, images more 3D. I've not heard the sabre chip brightness in either of these dacs, sound stage somewhat more forward in 004. Slightly more prominent bass with vega but 004 just fine here. Have no complaints with tonality, everything in pretty nice balance.

I'm not a headphone user, so this is with tube preamp and amps. I regularly rotate three amps in same system, 845 SET, EL34 push pull, 300B SET. Vega matches best with 845 tube, 004 with 300B. I would characterize 004 as the more analytical of the two dacs, my listening preferences would require all tube setup with 004. Guy I purchased 004 from described 004 as bright using with Macintosh SS pre and Boulder amp.  

I could see the stock 004 as long term keeper in my setup, increased resolution, transparency gives me even greater sense of performers in room over vega. I also presume clean AC (dedicated AC lines, BPT 3.5 Sig power conditioner or lithium ion power supply on dacs, clean ethernet- all AQ Vodka, optical conversion, clean usb-sotm sms200 neo, Uptone Regen, AQ Diamond, and mac mini- only minimal services operative,Uptone MMK with JS-2 power supply, LPS on every single digital piece help here. 

I run Roon, no DPS and ripped cd's to Synology NAS.

I have also purchased LKS 005, shipping out Dec. 6 and expecting Okto Dac 8 stereo any day now (3 month waiting list). If I had any criticism of 004 it would be in the area of refinement, timbre. Based on design and parts of 005, expecting greater resolution and refinement, Okto Dac 8 more relaxed with 9028chips? At this point my plans are auditioning Audiobyte Hydro Vox, Holo May, Aqua and Mola Mola  dacs. FPGA, R2R or Sabre designs, I want to hear all three in my system.

No headphone use here, highly modded Klipschorn, only bass cabinet is stock.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 5, 2020)

I had a couple of requests for photos of some of my later mods so here goes...


----------



## b0bb

I/V resistors 2 Watt Vishay TX2575 0.1% custom made to my specs by Texas Components.
Mounted on the underside to minimize any air currents around the resistors.

What it does.
1) Improves the pinpoint imaging of the dac
2) Reduce top end sibilance and glare
3) Fast bass transients no longer muddy up the overall presentation





Close up


----------



## b0bb (Dec 5, 2020)

100uF 10V solid tantalum bead cap for Vcom bypass.

The vcom reference circuit is very low current, conventional aluminum (Al) electrolytics leakage is quite high and not temperature stable.

Solid tantalum beads have very low leakage, about 10-50x lower than conventional Al Electrolytics and is stable across a wide temperature range.

This improves the low frequency common rejection of the dac, it practical term gets you lots of low and very fast bass.

What it does.
1) Substantial low end extension improvement
2) Bass slam impact increases


----------



## b0bb (Dec 5, 2020)

Replacement of analog section power filter cap with Mundorf 10,000uF 63V MLGO Mlytic AG
Vishay MBRF10H100 100V 10A Schottky

What it does
1) Mundorf inproves the bass slam, the OEM Jensen caps were quite mushy in presentation
2) Bass slams much harder
3) Schottky diodes brings improved smoothness and a more lush midrange. This brings out the voice of the tenor or soprano in classical opera pieces.
    With the Stock LKS Jensen caps, the singer gets lost/buried in the orchestra


----------



## b0bb (Dec 5, 2020)

Replacement of 0.1uF WIMA polyester caps with 0.15 uF WIMA MKP Polypropylene

What it does
1) More midrange smoothness
2) Less sibilant top end


----------



## b0bb

LKS used very large (>1000uF)  low ESR output caps on the LM317 regulators, this is not ideal.
(Previous discussion from the NatSemi design article a few posts earlier)

This was to partially counteract the poor performance of the Nichicon audio filter caps.
The Nichicon caps are good for analog audio but it appears to be a poor choice for the digital power regulation.
The dissipation factor is quite high and I find the caps on the digital side running  at elevated temps.

The mod below unwinds some of the changes LKS made to allow the use of more suitable components
Replaced the 10,000 uF Nichicon with a 10,000 uF Cornell Dublier (CDM)  380LX.
CDM caps are industrial caps designed for heavy duty use, ripple current is 2-5x better than the Nichicons.

This serves the high current transient demands from the digital circuitry better.

I replaced the 2200uF Panasonic FR, with a 680uF Chemicon SXE (something I had lying around)
ESR is 3x higher and the value 4x smaller.
This brings things back inline per NatSemi's design recommendations

What is brings:
1) Reduction in sibilance
2) Better bass slam
3) Smoother midrange
4)Complex esp highly compressed tracks no longer blur out, the is now a more distinct ablilty to resolve the music compared to the previous muddy and mushy presentation





CDE/CDM 380LX cap




Chemicon 680uF output cap


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> 100uF 10V solid tantalum bead cap for Vcom bypass.
> 
> The vcom reference circuit is very low current, conventional aluminum (Al) electrolytics leakage is quite high and not temperature stable.
> 
> ...


Hi B0bb, what can I say?
Where would this forum be without you. Great job!!!
Can you please share the exact part number of the tantal bead?


----------



## Gilberto 62

Hello boys. As I am experimenting with HQPlayer, comparing it to Foobar and upsampling DSD512 (... to the limit of my computer ...), I notice that HQP has a more liquid, brighter sound and Foobar has a darker, heavier sound , thicker. So, in the face of the terrifying multiconfiguration of HQP filters, could one of you please tell me which you think are the most suitable filters in search of a thicker, fuller, darker sound in this impressive HQP ...? Thanks for your opinion. Greetings to everyone from Spain ....


----------



## b0bb (Dec 6, 2020)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Hello boys. As I am experimenting with HQPlayer, comparing it to Foobar and upsampling DSD512 (... to the limit of my computer ...), I notice that HQP has a more liquid, brighter sound and Foobar has a darker, heavier sound , thicker. So, in the face of the terrifying multiconfiguration of HQP filters, could one of you please tell me which you think are the most suitable filters in search of a thicker, fuller, darker sound in this impressive HQP ...? Thanks for your opinion. Greetings to everyone from Spain ....


poly-sinc-ext2 filter
ASDM7 DSD modulator

Leave the rest at default

Screencap is from embedded version of HQPlayer, find the corresponding setting if you are using HQPlayer Desktop


----------



## b0bb (Dec 6, 2020)

Xoverman said:


> Hi B0bb, what can I say?
> Where would this forum be without you. Great job!!!
> Can you please share the exact part number of the tantal bead?


Thanks

The tantalums are generic parts just find the lowest leakage device on offer.
Avoid devices with ESR of 5 ohms of greater. Typical ESR values are for this application is between 1-3 ohms.

Example below from AVX has 8uA leakage@25C, this is small enough to not cause Vcom reference errors.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AVX/TAP107K010SRW?qs=NORa6xUSEah7%2BvryW8kR/w==


----------



## Gilberto 62

Thank you very much b0bb. You are the light in our darkness...


----------



## Gilberto 62

Dear b0bb, I just changed the filters and the modulator that I had before in HQP and I have put the ones that you have kindly indicated. Well, right, right now I am listening to a dsd256 upsampled file to dsd512 and there is one thing that strikes me, that I notice a lower consumption of gpu on my pc, much less than with my previous configuration which was:
-Oversampling filter: poly-sinc-xtr-mp-2s
-Modulator: AMSDM7 512 + fs
     Please, I read something that this configuration of mine with that "xtr" filter, is very demanding in resources, what do you think ...?
     Thanks for your always valuable help b0bb.


----------



## b0bb

Gilberto 62 said:


> Dear b0bb, I just changed the filters and the modulator that I had before in HQP and I have put the ones that you have kindly indicated. Well, right, right now I am listening to a dsd256 upsampled file to dsd512 and there is one thing that strikes me, that I notice a lower consumption of gpu on my pc, much less than with my previous configuration which was:
> -Oversampling filter: poly-sinc-xtr-mp-2s
> -Modulator: AMSDM7 512 + fs
> Please, I read something that this configuration of mine with that "xtr" filter, is very demanding in resources, what do you think ...?
> Thanks for your always valuable help b0bb.


Those settings I recommended reduces processor and gpu computation load, xtr filters does not seem like something your computer can comfortably handle.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Thank you very much b0bb...


----------



## fmzip (Dec 9, 2020)

Very impressive mods b0bb!

A few questions:

1) Accusilicon AS318-B-100, where can this component be purchased from? This part is not available anywhere from what I searched.
2) Is anyone using I2s or is it best to use the upgraded Amanero USB in stock form and simply upgrade the power supply as noted? The Ebay link to the power supply board that was posted is dead, here is a link to the same https://www.ebay.com/itm/274403969704
3) b0bb, are you a dedicated headphone user or is this DAC being used in a 2 channel setup? I'm curious as I would think the audible differences with these changes would seem to be more noticeable in a more critical listening headphone environment
3) Is the better route, USB or I2S? Do the all the mods listed, other than the upgraded power supply to the USB, pertain to improvement in the I2s chain as well?
4)  I am not too familiar with HQ player but I thought I saw someone say they enabled this on the Sonictransporter and didn't need a separate PC? I am a set it and forget it kind of person, is it as simple as checking off a couple of boxes in the sonictransporter to enable HQplayer or is it more involved?


My current setup is ROON Sonictransporter I5>Sonore Ulratrendu>Ultradigital I2s>LKS>Anthem D2V Pre>Emotiva XPA-1L>B&W Nautilus 803

I was using the USB originally but was limited to DSD128 with ROON which is why I added the Ultradigital to the mix. The Ultradigital allowed me to go up to DSD256. Now I see that if I were to update the firmware on the USB, I could have accomplished the same thing.

I work at a company that assembles electronics printed circuit boards so I am fortunate in that regard to have the pro's with the proper equipment do mods. The B&W 803's are very transparent so I'd like to remove the glare and brightness whichever way I can. Tighter bass and more punch is what I am after. Would the 950x crystal be the better choice for me or the Accusilicon?

Thanks to all for contributing to this amazing thread!


----------



## MartinWT

I'm going to buck the trend here and say the best route into the LKS is via AES/EBU. I played a lot with I2S and ultimately found it a dead end due to constant pops and bangs and a harsh sonic character. USB is disappointing from a resolution point of view.

I use AES because I input into it from a Mutec MC-3 reclocker, itself driven by USB from my network bridge/streamer. Every single time I have improved the performance of my digital chain, the LKS just rises with it, seemingly having no limit to performance via AES.

I recently replaced my Asus Tinker Board S running Volumio network bridge with a Sonore ultraRendu running Sonicorbiter. The LKS responded with better soundstage and greater depth and note decay. Similarly when I added an external master clock to the EtherREGEN and Mutec.

I also replaced the AES cable from an Audioquest Carbon to a Wireworld Micro Eclipse Platinum and that improvement was also evident.

So far, AES is giving me by far the best performance I've ever had in my system. Take care to feed the LKS with a fine quality signal and it responds in kind.


----------



## fmzip (Dec 9, 2020)

Martin,

What did you use when you were dabbling with the I2S? I've had no issues sending 256DSD to the DAC via SonicOrbiterRoon/UltraDigital/UltraRendu at DPLL 7.

My system has always been quite bright as the surroundings cannot be changed due to the WAF (see below) . I am hoping some mods to the DAC will help with it. I am quite pleased with the DAC already, just trying to discern  what's the best mods to do it, or is adding other pieces before it like the Regen more useful? I have Synergistic Research Red fuse of the way to add that into the mix next


----------



## MartinWT (Dec 9, 2020)

I tried two I2S solutions, the first was an Audiophonics LVDS streamer and the second a Pi3 with Kali I2S board. The second was better in resolution but the LKS was too bright with both. I'm convinced its I2S input is suboptimal. The clicks when it goes into and out of signal lock became very annoying since there is no mute circuit.

AES input has a much better balance and properly mutes when unlocked.

If you want to tame the LKS a little more, try an SR Blue fuse.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 10, 2020)

fmzip said:


> Very impressive mods b0bb!
> 
> A few questions:
> 
> ...



1)
Accusilicon 100MHz AS318-B availability has become very limited, Magnahifi stills sells them
https://magnahifi.com/audio-gd-accusilicon-as318b-100mhz-femto-clock-upgrade/

CCHD950X is readily available from the usual suppliers (Mouser, Digikey, Arrow, Farnell etc)

2 and 3)
USB vs I2S really depends on whether your specific setup is quiet enough RF wise to outperform SPDIF.
Given your description of the bright sonic presentation, I am thinking that RF noise is affecting your DAC.

The Amanero is pretty good, bested by the Singxer SU6 and then only with very careful isolation of RF noise and preparation of the music source

SPDIF performance is the the baseline.
If you are prepared to do the work on I2S, it gives the best performance, however be aware the LKS has *zero* RFI protection on the I2S input.
USB input is isolated, unfortunately LKS leaves the jitter removal caused by the isolator to the 9038, this overburdens the 9038 especially the DPLL

My source preparation  for low noise operation is thus:
- It starts with a FCC Class B certified machine running the audio endpoint to keep below 1mV conducted noise for the music player
  Forget about DIY unless you can afford FCC style EMI testing for your specific box configuration.
- Separate the player and audio renderer into different machines.
- Drive down the remainder of noise with the SU6 taking care to break the chassis ground conection between the SU6 and the PC
- Use a minimal Linux install (no X11 GUI, all non essential processes removed) as the audio player, the one I use has a memory footprint of 256-350MB when running
  This reduces the non audio activity on the machine to its absolute minimum.
  Linux kernel is a low-latency build.

A PC going full bore can easily send 100A (100W@1V) of current into the ground planes creating a lot of ripples as it interacts with the non zero ground plane impedance.
No amount of filtering and isolation can fix this, the recourse is to reduce the number of active processes.
The biggest CPU hog on Windows is the GUI and associated background processes
Getting rid of the GUI on Windows requires expensive options like Server Core, that is almost 2/3rd the cost of the LKS004.
(A lot of people overlook the fact that the CPU is the single biggest noise source in the system)

I recently bought a new DDC, Singxer SU2, this is a Windows only device, running Win10 20H2 with Fidelizer and the Singxer ASIO driver
There was little sonic difference between it the Amanero and the SU6.
(This is one of the reasons a few have questioned the usefulness of the more expensive SU6)

Switching back to barebones Linux made the differences between I2S (SU6) and USB (Amanero) much clearer.
SU6 vs SU2 differences not obvious on Win10, benefits of SU6 only weakly felt on Win10 eg bass slam is mildly hinted at on Win10.
On Linux SU6 was clearly ahead, bass was very fast and hit with an impact that neither SU2 or Amanero could match.
SU2 un-officially runs in DSD mode on Linux about the same level as the Amanero.

Similar performance to Linux can be expected Win Server Core 2019 or Nano Server from Windows Server 2016.
Neither has the GUI and can be configured to run very lean.

Performance overall was pretty poor on Windows Desktop versions (Home/Pro) , bass was lacking and fast transients smeared, cymbal clash was quite painful to listen.
String quartets were a wooden affair lacking musicality.

In this situation, SPDIF/AES is actually a better option as @MartinWT mentioned especially if one is using a single box for playback and audiorendering.
LKS put some effort in isolating the SPDIF inputs.

This however limits the DAC to 192kHz sampling/DSD64 at best, the full potential of the LKS is not realized here.

It boils down to whether you can get RF noise down on I2S and USB such that performance exceeds what you get on SPDIF
(AES is just SPDIF on a differential transport)

4)
I do the initial baselines on 3 sets of headphones, Sennheiser HD800, Stax SR009  and Audeze LCD3F.
The results are directly translatable to my speaker listening environment.

My speaker setup:
Martin Logan Summit powered by Aragon Palladium 1Ks Monoblocks, differential/balanced drive to MLs.
Bass is handled by an old school Velodyne HGS18 with analog motion feedback on the cone, this is one of the very few subwoofers that can keep up
with the MLs and not muddy the sound with lots of DSP help from HQPlayer

The room has the necessary acoustic treatment (early reflections, DSP assisted time alignment via HQplayer)
I generally do not discuss the results of speaker listening due to the fact that the room exerting a large influence on the presentation.
It also depends on how tightly the acoustic environment is controlled

5)
I have not used sonic transporter with HQPlayer
I would suggest you consider using a  NUC which is FCC certified or one of the audioendpoints like the uRendu or SMS200

Ultradigital is closely related to the Singxer SU1, check the metal shells on the usb inout and HDMI output are not connected.
If they are connected you might want to experiment taping the over the metal shell of the USB connector going into the PC


Before you spend time and effort on the hardware mods see if you can clean up the RF noise environment per the above.

The success criteria is a sonic improvement over SPDIF.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 10, 2020)

One way to get and retain performance when using the LKS I2S hdmi input.
Use a very short cable.





LKS hdmi input impedance is out of whack with the rest of the industry.

The commonly accepted LVDS signal termination is 100ohms.
LKS decided to use 120 ohms, note the resistors below with the orange bands
This is a recipe for signal reflection on the cable, making finding the right I2S cable an exercise in frustration.

The difference in termination on the transmitter (100ohms) and receiver end (120ohms) means signal energy can bounce back and forth causing signal interference with the new data coming out of the transmitter.

This is an additional source of jitter in the signal going to the dac.

Shortening the cable reduces the delay and reduced the effect of the reflection problem






On to the LVDS receiver...
This is the DS26LV32A made by National Semiconductor
Notice that the max toggle frequency is 32MHz.
There a 2 transitions/toggles per I2S clock, potentially 16MHz max clock.

DSD 512 operates at 22/24MHz we are just beyond those limits.
I am wondering if this might be one of the items for the coming round of modifications.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 10, 2020)

Coming back to the hardware mods....

I am experimenting with reducing the leakage of the cap bypassing the Vcom reference chain.

The silver component in the middle of the picture is a wet tantalum unit, leakage is 1uA vs 8uA from the yellow bead.

The initial presentation is more focused imaging, bass got a lot faster, most notable on stringed instruments ( bass guitar, double bass) and percussion instruments like the kick drum.

Avoid surplus sources and Ebay as older caps of this type many have reliabllity and operating constraint issues.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 10, 2020)

Finally got rid of the metallized mylar/polyester caps on the analog final/post filter. Yay!

Replaced with polyproplyene caps.
Black ones are Vishay KP1830 film/foil, blue ones are Kemet PHE426 metallized polypropylene

LKS used polypropylene for the analog post filter in the LKS003.
I was disappointed when they went with metallized mylar for the 004.

The problems this caused was predictable, transient smearing (kickdrums and cymbals), loss of top end control on highly compressed tracks and a diminished sound stage.

Improvements were as expected, namely the reversal of the above, no surprises here just predictable gains

I used components with a 1% tolerance to improve the consistency.






Wider shot of the mods





Original blue metallized mylar/polyester before mod


----------



## fmzip (Dec 10, 2020)

Thanks b0bb.

I took the cover off tonight to update the USB firmware, twist the pairs on the torrids as well. Noticed that the grounding screw for the torrid to the chassis was very loose like barely on, like the ring lug was wobbly loose! All the screws holding the torroids down were not too snug either.

Thought I'd share the link as the firmware has changed since it was last posted, it's 2006be11:

​
CPLD_1081 or CPLD_1081_SWAPPEDSDnative DSD512 on Linux/Windowsfirmware_2006be11oem tool 117Async DAC


Instructions once again:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-14595255

https://amanero.com/combo384_firmware.htm

If I go down the route of soldering the socket in for crystal swapping, does it ultimately need to then be removed? Do I also have to swap something else out for this mod with the socket? Attached are some photos for reference


----------



## fmzip

b0bb, 

Do you have the manufacturer part numbers used in this mod handy? I think I will follow the lead and avoid I2s for the time being.



b0bb said:


> Without modification the LT3042 regulator board will open up the soundstage and the vocals will gain an increase in presence
> Bass becomes deeper, most importantly the board will work in native DSD512 without hiccups and dropouts.
> 
> *The board can be further rebuilt to improve its performance, in that form it handily beat my SU-1 over I2S
> This uses OSCON polymers on the input filter, vishay low voltage schottky diodes and a tantalum polymer for output bypassed by a MLCC cap  and rubycon acrylic caps*


----------



## b0bb (Dec 11, 2020)

fmzip said:


> If I go down the route of soldering the socket in for crystal swapping, does it ultimately need to then be removed? Do I also have to swap something else out for this mod with the socket? Attached are some photos for reference


No, it works ok
You will need adapters for the CCHD950x as these are SMD only.
http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/cronus.aspx

Look towards the end of the page


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> b0bb,
> 
> Do you have the manufacturer part numbers used in this mod handy? I think I will follow the lead and avoid I2s for the time being.


BOM here some of the supplier links may need updating
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/post-12035366


----------



## fmzip (Dec 11, 2020)

b0bb said:


> BOM here some of the supplier links may need updating
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/post-12035366



Thanks b0bb!

Is it okay to use this Wima 10%
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS2B051001N00KSSD?qs=sJjjjplDs9sPL29pY4Edmg==

instead of 5% variant?
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS2B051001N00JO00?qs=sJjjjplDs9vMG5HEvKlbLQ==

Also can this work
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/murata-electronics/GRJ32ER71E106KE11L/5321161

instead of  this?
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/963-EMK325B7106KNHT

Also, this one looks like a dog:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/rubycon/16ST475MC14532/3719920

Is this the acceptable alternate?

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/rubycon/16MU475MC14532/1189-2518-1-ND/4969576




I think I've read close to 150 pages of this thread over the past few days and bookmarked 20+ pages.

In order of most important mods first, do you have handy a current top 10 list of mods that you would suggest? Is the clock swap still number 1 in your opinion?

You also mention "adapters" below, it's just one piece needed, or are these adapters are what is used to plug into the socket if trying different clocks? The socket for the board is then another part number? If I went Accusilicon instead, that's a thru hole part that would simply plug into the socket?



b0bb said:


> No, it works ok
> You will need adapters for the CCHD950x as these are SMD only.
> http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/cronus.aspx
> 
> Look towards the end of the page


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> No, it works ok
> You will need adapters for the CCHD950x as these are SMD only.
> http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/cronus.aspx
> 
> Look towards the end of the page





Xoverman said:


> Here's the copper wall.




Question, how did you perforate the copper like you did? Multiple drilling, one by one?


----------



## fmzip (Dec 12, 2020)

Put the 3M and Fairite material on the the 3 ICs as suggested and also around the hdmi input and around one of the torids. What a difference in sound! Maybe that loose ground wasn’t helping matters either but boy it was a night a day difference across all genres. Classical, even Led Zeppelin could be played at high volumes without any fatigue. Upsampling to DSD 256 in Roon from the Ultradigital I2S may still be the way to go. Now I’m thinking the Accusilicon clock may be the better choice although the 950x intrigues me with the comment toward the McIntosh sound. I remember when I heard the 803s many years back on Macintosh, that to me was bliss! On the fence on bringing the sound forward...
What to do??

Ordering some 2 1/2 x 12 inch copper for the wall. I’m paying for it, Mexico isn’t 😎💰


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Thanks b0bb!
> 
> Is it okay to use this Wima 10%
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS2B051001N00KSSD?qs=sJjjjplDs9sPL29pY4Edmg==
> ...


Use the specified part if still available.
The Murata alternate is NRND -->Obsolete.
The alternate rubycon is meant for SMD ovens, tinned area is too small for manual soldering.

You need adapters for the 950X if a socket is used, it can also be soldered directly no adapter needed.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 12, 2020)

fmzip said:


> Put the 3M and Fairite material on the the 3 ICs as suggested and also around the hdmi input and around one of the torids. What a difference in sound! Maybe that loose ground wasn’t helping matters either but boy it was a night a day difference across all genres. Classical, even Led Zeppelin could be played at high volumes without any fatigue.



The sheets absorb RF noise energy, this should give you an idea of what to expect if the problem is stopped at the source.

Once that is done the, 3M and Fairite sheets do not add any further value.


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> The sheets absorb RF noise energy, this should give you an idea of what to expect if the problem is stopped at the source.
> 
> Once that is done the, 3M and Fairite sheets do no add any further value.


Unfortunately that Rubycon is not available anywhere, would you happen to have a suggestion for an alternate? My soldered use microscopes for challenging situations, do you think it’s really not possible to hand solder the one I mentioned?


----------



## MartinWT

@b0bb I've lost track of the relative sound quality of the different recommended IV resistors, especially the Texas and Vishay. Please could you summarise your favourites and how they differ? What are used in the stock LKS?


----------



## b0bb (Dec 12, 2020)

fmzip said:


> Unfortunately that Rubycon is not available anywhere, would you happen to have a suggestion for an alternate? My soldered use microscopes for challenging situations, do you think it’s really not possible to hand solder the one I mentioned?


Use the alternate Rubycon if you have trouble getting the one I listed.

You have very careful as the cap is an expensive piece of plastic.
They are big enough to work on without a microscope


----------



## b0bb (Dec 12, 2020)

MartinWT said:


> @b0bb I've lost track of the relative sound quality of the different recommended IV resistors, especially the Texas and Vishay. Please could you summarise your favourites and how they differ? What are used in the stock LKS?


I have always used the Vishay Metal Foil resistors for I/V duties, Texas Components is the manufacturer for the module.
LKS has experimented a lot with different resistors so the actual resistor depends on the version.
LKS used 0.5% Holco HP4 on my unit
https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/holco_data_0.pdf


I have not experimented with different resistors as the Vishays have what I am looking for
1) Non inductive, the I/V on the 004 uses feedback, any inductive reactance will reduce high frequency feedback.
    This is partly the reason why the 004 can sound bright.

2) Very low resistance change with temperature, the 004 runs a lot of current thru the resistor.
I did not want self heat effects to change the gain/transimpedance of the I/V (this causes artificial compression of the very loud passages)

3) Can be made to my specs at reasonable cost


----------



## Xoverman

fmzip said:


> Question, how did you perforate the copper like you did? Multiple drilling, one by one?


Yes, Multiple drilling, one by one 😊


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Finally got rid of the metallized mylar/polyester caps on the analog final/post filter. Yay!
> 
> Replaced with polyproplyene caps.
> Black ones are Vishay KP1830 film/foil, blue ones are Kemet PHE426 metallized polypropylene
> ...



b0bb,
could you share the values of the blue capasitors? 10 x 33nF? 
Thank you.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> could you share the values of the blue capasitors? 10 x 33nF?
> Thank you.


4x33nF


----------



## fmzip

piaseczek said:


> It's a good start.
> I've marked the next steps for you + Cystek replacement.
> It's based on the b0bb's experience with the LKS 004 and 003. Thanks b0bb.




Do you happen to have the manufacturer part numbers for all the mods listed?


----------



## fmzip (Dec 14, 2020)

For anyone looking for a a piece of copper that is already cut to size, I asked an Ebay seller to create the piece here. I asked that the piece be slightly shorter than needed, thinking I'll affix some L brackets on each end to secure it to the case:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/303810576653


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> 1)
> Accusilicon 100MHz AS318-B availability has become very limited, Magnahifi stills sells them
> https://magnahifi.com/audio-gd-accusilicon-as318b-100mhz-femto-clock-upgrade/
> 
> ...



@ B0bb

"My speaker setup:
Martin Logan Summit powered by Aragon Palladium 1Ks Monoblocks, differential/balanced drive to MLs.
Bass is handled by an old school Velodyne HGS18 with analog motion feedback on the cone, this is one of the very few subwoofers that can keep up
with the MLs and not muddy the sound with lots of DSP help from HQPlayer"

I have exactly that problem  
My idea is to get the “rythmikaudio Dual opposed 15" sealed G25HP Direct Servo subwoofer “
but maybe you have a better suggestion ?


----------



## fmzip

Xoverman said:


> @ B0bb
> 
> "My speaker setup:
> Martin Logan Summit powered by Aragon Palladium 1Ks Monoblocks, differential/balanced drive to MLs.
> ...




I saw that you had both the 950x and the Accusilicon clocks. Which is your preference


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> 4x33nF




b0bb, thanks but I was asking for the values of the stock (also blue) MKTs


----------



## piaseczek

fmzip said:


> Do you happen to have the manufacturer part numbers for all the mods listed?



Diodes:
https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMtQ8nqTKtFS/JkHNs4hgXaDnS4NPJ13sko=

Tantalum cap:
https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AVX/TAP107K010SRW?qs=NORa6xUSEah7%2BvryW8kR/w==

The FPCAPs for the crystek and for the ess9028 are not as recommended by b0bb as the 1% foil capacitors in analog filters. The latter is the newest b0bb's idea.


----------



## MartinWT

Updated since replacing my Asus Tinker Board S based streamer with an ultraRendu.  All of my source digital components sit on an Electric Beach S1NX shelf, itself isolated from the main system rack with RDC Cones and Cone Cups.  It may look ugly, but I've laid it out to keep the signal path short and direct.

Ethernet arrives from the TP-Link router via the blue MeiCord cable into the back of the EtherREGEN.  Reclocked ethernet emerges from the EtherREGEN via a very short purple Cat6 cable into the ultraRendu streamer.  This runs SonicOrbiter software and is controlled from my Android Tablet computer using the BubbleUPnP app.  The output is USB which goes off to my Mutec reclocker to the right of the photo (which sits on top of the LKS DAC).

The Coherent QP-1 supercap PSU powers the ultraRendu with 8V and the Mutec with 5V.  The EtherREGEN is powered by 12V from an LPSU on the next shelf down, which also powers the master clock.  Both DC cables are Coherent DC.

The two small black boxes in the centre are Black Ravioli Eflos grounding boxes for the two digital components shown.  Both components have heatsinks installed to improve heat dissipation, and very heavy door stops to weight them down.  There's another on the QP-1.


----------



## fmzip

Looks nice Martin

What are the silver things on top of the Regen & Rendu? I have the Sonore Dual faceplacte to tie both my pieces together for added stability. The defintely can use some weight!

What are your thoughts on the Regen?


----------



## b0bb (Dec 16, 2020)

Xoverman said:


> @ B0bb
> 
> "My speaker setup:
> Martin Logan Summit powered by Aragon Palladium 1Ks Monoblocks, differential/balanced drive to MLs.
> ...



You will need a signal generator that is capable of doing a frequency sweep from 5Hz to 22kHz.
Laptop with sound output will do for this.
Adjust the crossovers on the sub to get the flattest possible response on a frequency sweep.

You will hit your room's first fundamental resonance, look for the most prominent  peak and null point on the sweep.
If possible, add acoustic absorbers and dampers to help control it.
Do not try to EQ this away, it will waste a lot of amplifier power.

Measure the room impulse response using a tool like Acourate and feed the data to HQPlayer to integrate the sub and main speakers.
RoomEQ Wizard is an alternative but requires more manual processing

This is similar to what Audyssey or Dirac does on Hometheater boxes, with these your are mostly limited to 48kHz and anything higher is downsampled, no DSD.

HQPlayer is the only tool I know of that can process DSD room correction without PCM intermediate conversion.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 15, 2020)

fmzip said:


> I saw that you had both the 950x and the Accusilicon clocks. Which is your preference



I have not used the Accusilicon as I switched over to OCXOs just as they entered the market, the rms jitter numbers is just slightly better than the Crysteks.

If you need a definitive answer get both and decide for yourself, the CCHD950X is about 36 USD


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb, thanks but I was asking for the values of the stock (also blue) MKTs



Check your own DAC, LKS may have changed the configuration, the black caps are 2200pf on mine.


----------



## MartinWT

fmzip said:


> What are the silver things on top of the Regen & Rendu? I have the Sonore Dual faceplacte to tie both my pieces together for added stability. The defintely can use some weight!
> 
> What are your thoughts on the Regen?


They are heavy German door stops from Amazon.

The EtherREGEN is a valuable addition to my system. That and the Mutec both contribute to a very low noise feed into the LKS. Sound quality with both running is the best I have yet heard.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 16, 2020)

An update for the Amanero USB card,
This adds 2200uF Aluminium Polymer caps bringing the values back into line with the original design.
This is more of a maintenance update to improve ripple current delivery by 60%.
My DAC has been running 24x7 for almost 4 years, filter cap replacement is part of the maintenance.
(This specific board mod dates back to 2014, so been running about 6.5 years)

What this provides:
Better bass slam
Better bass impact

*United Chemicon APSG160ELL222MJ20S *




After mod:




Before mod:
At the time of the mod, 1000uF Panasonic SEPF was the biggest cap available.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 16, 2020)

Vishay PTN Tantalum Nitride 49.9k voltage setting resistor for the LT3042 regulator.
PTN0805E4992BBT1, this is the 0805 size which is a little small, a 1206 size is a better fit but Mouser ran out of stock.

TaN resistors have recently become more widely available, these are precision, non-inductive, extremely stable and very tight tolerance (0.1%) for 0.75 USD.

The results were quite unexpected, the Amanero USB performance lifted to the point of equalling the much more expensive Singxer SU-6 in sound staging.
Out-punches the SU-6 on bass.
SU-6 retains a very small lead in bass depth.

The LT3042 appears quite sensitive to inductance on the voltage setting resistor.
Vishay PTN is R4, the little green square in the middle of the picture.


----------



## fmzip

b0bb,



piaseczek said:


> Diodes:
> https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Semiconductors/MBRF10H100-E3-45/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtQ8nqTKtFS/JkHNs4hgXaDnS4NPJ13sko=
> 
> Tantalum cap:
> ...




Thank you.

So only the two mods? Diodes and Tantalum? Where does this tantalum cap mount? You mention the ESS9028 though? This is a 9038

b0bb, can you confirm if anything else should be changed please?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-16037192


----------



## piaseczek

fmzip said:


> b0bb,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+ crystek 950x and rebuilding the PSU for the amanero board. 
I thought about the ess9038, sorry, my mistake.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Check your own DAC, LKS may have changed the configuration, the black caps are 2200pf on mine.



b0bb,
of course I will check.
Do I have to replace all 10 blue, MKT capasitors if I am using the XLR outputs only?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> of course I will check.
> Do I have to replace all 10 blue, MKT capasitors if I am using the XLR outputs only?


Yes if you want to upgrade the analog post filter.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Good afternoon gentlemen. Forgive me for an apprentice inquiry, but this is where the source of knowledge and help is. I listen to my music from PC to LKS + Amanero usb upsampled to dsd512 with a satisfactory result for me, but reading to you, I see that you sometimes talk about Singxer devices. As I am always looking for an improvement, my question is if you think that inserting a Singxer SU6 between my pc and the dac would obtain a significant improvement or upgrade. Do you think I would have a better SQ ...? Or would it be wasting money ...? Thanks, as always, for any feedback from you. Greetings to all ....


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> You will need a signal generator that is capable of doing a frequency sweep from 5Hz to 22kHz.
> Laptop with sound output will do for this.
> Adjust the crossovers on the sub to get the flattest possible response on a frequency sweep.
> 
> ...


Hi B0bb,
I think I didn't ask my question clearenough. Have you ever considered using a Rythmik subwoofer?  Servo and no DSP


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Hi B0bb,
> I think I didn't ask my question clearenough. Have you ever considered using a Rythmik subwoofer?  Servo and no DSP


Talked them a few years ago, technically interesting speaker, far less confident about them as a business, went to the bottom of my list of prospects.

My replacement choice for the HGS18 is a servo unit from REL, planning to get 2 maybe 3 smaller units to provide more flexibility in handling the various room modes.


----------



## fmzip (Dec 21, 2020)

Planning to do the crystal swap in a few days.

Since I will have the PCB out of the chassis, is there anything I should replace while I have it out?


My diodes are BYW29-200G.


https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/on-semiconductor/BYW29-200G/1476300?utm_adgroup=Semiconductor Modules&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Dynamic Search&utm_term=&utm_content=Semiconductor Modules&gclid=CjwKCAiArIH_BRB2EiwALfbH1BnstKXI9w0Yu52_32XXl4ulxI1uFWY4foj2dhuDNf8yiidxKXpgBRoCL8AQAvD_BwE

Are the  MBRF10H100-E3/45 are drop in for the  BYW29-200G?

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/MBRF10H100-E3/45/MBRF10H100-E3/45GI-ND/2153381?itemSeq=348727238

I grasp the concept of not changing too many things at once but it would seem to make sense to at least do the bare necessities on the main board while it's being handled.


----------



## fmzip (Dec 21, 2020)

delete


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Are the  MBRF10H100-E3/45 are drop in for the  BYW29-200G?
> 
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/MBRF10H100-E3/45/MBRF10H100-E3/45GI-ND/2153381?itemSeq=348727238



Yes


----------



## b0bb (Dec 21, 2020)

Markup of some of the common mods

Initial set of modifications:
[1] XO Crystek CCHD950X Qty: 1

[2] Schottky High Barrier diodes, fully insulated low leakage, Vishay MBRF10H100 Qty:28
     The actual diodes are black in the top right of the picture on the Amanero PSU

[3] Tantalum Vcom bypass Qty:2
      Generic Yellow bead solid tantalum 100uF 10V eg AVX TAP107K010SRW
    Unit in photo is a Wet Tantalum 150uF 10V Vishay 109D157X9010C2 (Expensive)

Followup modification set:
[4] Analog post filter.
    (Check your actual DAC post filter configuration is similar to my early revision 004)
     33nF 63V 5mm lead spacing 1% Kemet PHE426 metallized polypropylene Qty:4
     2200pF 100V 5mm lead spacing 1% Vishay KP1830 film/foil Qty:12

[5] Wima 0.15uF 100V 5mm lead spacing metallized polypropylene Qty:14

[6] Texas Components Vishay 0.1% TX2575 2W Z-Foil resistors for I/V Qty:4
     Not shown in picture, on underside of board, refer to earlier posts
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-16019754

[7] Big Mundorf 10000uF 63V. Qty:2
     Replace little Mundorf LKS is using in later revisions of the LKS004.


----------



## fmzip

b0bb....
Z
Very very much appreciated! Thank you, thank you!


----------



## fmzip (Dec 22, 2020)

b0bb said:


> ...




What is the poly foam doing on top of the crystal? Is it just placed there?

I have these with a slightly lower ESR. Okay to use?

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/avx-corporation/TAP107K020CCS/563950


----------



## b0bb (Dec 22, 2020)

fmzip said:


> What is the poly foam doing on top of the crystal? Is it just placed there?
> 
> I have these with a slightly lower ESR. Okay to use?
> 
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/avx-corporation/TAP107K020CCS/563950


No.

DC leakage is 2x that of the recommended cap.
Get a cap with a DC leakage of 8uA or less
Do not go below 10V voltage rating.

(Foam block is  thermal insulator for OCXO)


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> No.
> 
> DC leakage is 2x that of the recommended cap.
> Get a cap with a DC leakage of 8uA or less
> ...




Thanks b0bb

I have this one as well which looks like a better cross:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/kemet/T350J107K010AT/818449
https://www.digikey.com/htmldatasheets/production/77453/0/0/1/t35x-series-datasheet.html


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Thanks b0bb
> 
> I have this one as well which looks like a better cross:
> 
> ...


That will do.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb,
I have the newest version of the recommended PSU but it's a simplified version. Do you think that it will work as good as yours after the modification?


----------



## piaseczek

More photos.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> I have the newest version of the recommended PSU but it's a simplified version. Do you think that it will work as good as yours after the modification?


That is OK.
The first version copied the schematic from the appnotes and it had parts that were optional.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> That is OK.
> The first version copied the schematic from the appnotes and it had parts that were optional.



Great news, thanks b0bb.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> [4] Analog post filter.
> (Check your actual DAC post filter configuration is similar to my early revision 004)
> 33nF 63V 5mm lead spacing 1% Kemet PHE426 metallized polypropylene Qty:4
> 2200pF 100V 5mm lead spacing 1% Vishay KP1830 film/foil Qty:12



b0bb,
Have you seen the 33nF film and foil wimas?
https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/FKP2C023301L00HC00/?qs=WI052HLiD5iWRZJ3Tjlxjg==

Isn't it a better option than the kemet phe426?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> Have you seen the 33nF film and foil wimas?
> https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/FKP2C023301L00HC00/?qs=WI052HLiD5iWRZJ3Tjlxjg==
> 
> Isn't it a better option than the kemet phe426?


Why do you think it is better?

These have a tolerance of 2.5%, so the frequency response will be out by 5% overall.
Film foil construction will not amount to much if the basic frequency response is not right.

Do you really want to wait 4months (16 weeks) to get them?


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Why do you think it is better?
> 
> These have a tolerance of 2.5%, so the frequency response will be out by 5% overall.
> Film foil construction will not amount to much if the basic frequency response is not right.
> ...



Ok, I got it. The film and foil technology isn't as important as the 1% tolerance.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb,
original, blue MKTs are 5% tolerance? If that is correct I see here an easy upgrade.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> original, blue MKTs are 5% tolerance? If that is correct I see here an easy upgrade.


You need to specifically check the ones installed on your DAC, if the are stamped with a "J" then it is 5%, might also be printed on the case.
The ones on mine are 5% Mylar, this is a substantial cost reduction from the 2.5% Polypropylene LKS used on the MH-DA003


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Ok, I got it. The film and foil technology isn't as important as the 1% tolerance.


The tight tolerance parts are readily available now.

This will not always be the case, get them while you can.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 27, 2020)

This is the DS26LV32A I2S receiver on my DAC.
It is not LVDS, instead it runs RS-422, a slightly different protocol.

RS-422 signal levels are higher than LVDS, this might explain the slightly weird termination that LKS used to make it compatible with LVDS transmitters.

The chip tops out at 32MHz, this precludes DSD1024

DSD1024 is just under 50MHz, as such I2S performance is suboptimal on the 004
I replaced this a faster receiver from Sipex/MaxLinear, the SP26LV432CN is designed to operate up to 50MHz





There was an immediate improvement, like a haze was just lifted from the music, everything become clearer.
Soundstage became wider, high notes lost the vestiges of sibilance,especially percussion instruments.
Bass notes went lower without getting muddy.

I can now reliably drop the DPLL setting down to 7 with DSD512, it was not stable with the original receiver chip.
Power consumption dropped between 6-10% with this new receiver chip.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 25, 2020)

This is a rebuild of the digital power section to increase the current supply to the DAC

All the stock 1.5A regulators were replaced with 3A capable units with transient and noise handling equal to or better than the stock LT1963A

The Nichicon caps have been in continuous use for almost 4 years, these were replaced with 380LX series caps from Cornell Dubilier Mallory (CDM)
Tube amp owners may recognize the Mallory brand.
These caps have 3X lower dissipation loss compared to the Nichicon KG caps, the old caps were running quite hot.
Endurance/lifetime improve by 3X with the 380LX.

Post filter caps are 2700uF 125C automotive grade Nichicon UBY.
The modern regulator replacements allow for the use of relatively large post filter caps to help with the short term current demand

Polypropylene bypass caps replace the original mylar ones. These are the square green boxes from WIMA.

Vishay MBRF10H100 schottky diodes used for the rectifiers.





Caps values left to right 10,000uF 35V x2, 22,000uF 25V x1, 47,000uF 25V x1


----------



## b0bb

The regulator replacements, starting from left to right
Belleson SPX17 5V 3A for the primary 5V regulator




3A LT1764 replaces original 1.5A LT1963
2k and 499R Vishay PTN Tantalum nitiride 0.1%  10ppm resistors used to set the voltage




The 2 Auxillary 5V regulators use LT3083, this has  similar performance to the LT1963, outputs 3A current.
Design is similar to the LT3042 requiring just 1 resistor to set voltage
100k Vishay PTN Tantalum nitiride 0.1%  10ppm resistors used to set the voltage.


----------



## b0bb

Initial board prep, remove all the stock parts that are to be replaced leaving just the SMD resistors


----------



## b0bb

LT1763 with solder paste just before hot air soldering




After hot air soldering


----------



## b0bb

Add resistors, diodes and caps


----------



## b0bb

Closeup of the mounted regulators

Belleson SPX17 with LT1764 on left




LT3083


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> This is the DS26LV32A I2S receiver on my DAC.
> It is not LVDS, instead it runs RS-422, a slightly different protocol.
> 
> RS-422 signal levels are higher than LVDS, this might explain the slightly weird termination that LKS used to make it compatible with LVDS transmitters.
> ...



I knew you would do that.  
Great job!!! Your allways faster than me. I actually had the same idea. And now I know, it's a good one. 
Marry Christmas to everyone


----------



## Xoverman

I thought it might be interesting for you to see my setup.


----------



## MartinWT

Xoverman said:


> I thought it might be interesting for you to see my setup.


Always interesting to see other people's setups.

I considered a big screen but decided I didn't want anything like a TV in my listening room and settled for my Android tablet as controller.

Hope you've put a choke on the TV power cable because of nasty SMPS noise back into the power circuit.


----------



## Xoverman

3 1/2 Way 24db Linkwitz Riley pasive X-over. TV is tilted down to reduce wall reflections.


----------



## Xoverman

The transformers have pre filters you can't see on the pictures. The Pioneer DVD player is mainly used as a large ground plane.


----------



## Xoverman

The digital signal path goes from the computer to the Singxer USB isolator.
From Singxer USB isolator the signal travels to the ifi usb reclocker. There it is brought to HiFi ground at the same time.
From the ifi usb reclocker it travels on to the SU-6, and receives DAC digital ground.
So there are no digital ground loops.
Everything is powered by battery.


----------



## Xoverman

merovinger 15" 1200 W servo subwoofer


----------



## Xoverman (Dec 25, 2020)

Mains filter in the basement.
left: Subwoofer isolation transformer 2500W with screen shielding between primary and secondary side
center :  Accuphase integrated amplifier isolation transformer 2500W with screen shielding between primary and secondary side.
right :  DAC and 9V Power Supply primary isolation transformer 1500W with screen shielding between primary and secondary side.
All transformers are operated with 400V two-phase current. this halves the interference on the power grid, and the phase is shifted 30 degrees forwards, where there is less interference from rectifiers.


----------



## Xoverman

Secondary isolation transformer 500W with screen shielding between primary and secondary side just for the DAC .


----------



## Xoverman

MartinWT said:


> Always interesting to see other people's setups.
> 
> I considered a big screen but decided I didn't want anything like a TV in my listening room and settled for my Android tablet as controller.
> 
> Hope you've put a choke on the TV power cable because of nasty SMPS noise back into the power circuit.


The big screen turned out to be an advantage in retrospect, because I can reflect the sound downwards.
The first front reflection point is directed onto the carpet by the television.
The television has a 16A Schnaffner line filter. The cable that goes to the TV is a star quad geometry shielded.
The television and the computer are supplied by the normal house electricity network. They have no connection to the HiFi power grid.


----------



## oldearwax

Don't have a lot of Watts, but the best watt is the first watt .. my home-made flea watt amps
and old speakers .. Merry Xmas !!!


----------



## b0bb (Dec 25, 2020)

Xoverman said:


> I knew you would do that.
> Great job!!! Your allways faster than me. I actually had the same idea. And now I know, it's a good one.
> Marry Christmas to everyone


Thanks and happy christmas
This was a proof-of-concept to see if there was a bottleneck on the I2S receiver.
Stayed with RS-422 for now.

I will likely go to LVDS to get to higher data rates.
LVDS is a better match for the majority of I2S interface boxes out there like the Singxers.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Mains filter in the basement.
> left: Subwoofer isolation transformer 2500W with screen shielding between primary and secondary side
> center :  Accuphase integrated amplifier isolation transformer 2500W with screen shielding between primary and secondary side.
> right :  DAC and 9V Power Supply primary isolation transformer 1500W with screen shielding between primary and secondary side.
> All transformers are operated with 400V two-phase current. this halves the interference on the power grid, and the phase is shifted 30 degrees forwards, where there is less interference from rectifiers.


Did you get a reduction in buzzing noise from the transformers when you used a 2-phase power feed?


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Did you get a reduction in buzzing noise from the transformers when you used a 2-phase power feed?


Yes, at least 70% reduction in mechanical noise.


----------



## Xoverman (Dec 26, 2020)

oldearwax said:


> Don't have a lot of Watts, but the best watt is the first watt .. my home-made flea watt amps
> and old speakers .. Merry Xmas !!!


What a beautiful system. And a wonderful listening room. I love such wooden floors. Great taste!
Did you really build the amplifier yourself? And yes, it's true, the first Watt is the most important and the most critical.
Even though I have at least 280W's, I almost never reach more than 1W.
How is the deep bass with your tannoy's?


----------



## oldearwax

Xoverman said:


> What a beautiful system. And a wonderful listening room. I love such wooden floors. Great taste!
> Did you really build the amplifier yourself? And yes, it's true, the first Watt is the most important and the most critical.
> Even though I have at least 280W's, I almost never reach more than 1W.
> How is the deep bass with your tannoy's?



Thanks Xoverman.
I like your v-shaped high ceiling, it adds natural reverberation to the sound.

Yes, I built six Direct-Heat-Triode monoblocks, starting from wood planks, metal plates,
drill a lot of holes, solder a lot of joints. There are no capacitors along the signal path.

The Tannoys can go ~35Hz ... shake the floor with 0.5 watt when I play Cavelleria Rusticana
Dances with Wolves...
I decouple the speakers from the floor using tiles and little screws, really help the bass.

Xoverman, I have to thank you again for your "copper wall" modification.
It yields great improvement.

I *think* you have Accusilicon clock in your LKS ?
What do you think of it ?


----------



## piaseczek

Bateman's capasitors comparison:
https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...FjAKegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1QPTrEZlSwG08jXVSDGi7m


----------



## Xoverman

oldearwax said:


> Thanks Xoverman.
> I like your v-shaped high ceiling, it adds natural reverberation to the sound.
> 
> Yes, I built six Direct-Heat-Triode monoblocks, starting from wood planks, metal plates,
> ...


Yes, I have the impression the Accusilicon brings more focused imaging and better controlled bass.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 29, 2020)

Xoverman said:


> Yes, I have the impression the Accusilicon brings more focused imaging and better controlled bass.


Did you buy it from a place other than Audiophonics or Magna ?

Pulsar is not going to last forever so I am looking for viable alternatives.
AS318B does not seem to be on sale anymore

I currently evaluating SiTime SIT-5157 and Bliley BOVTL

SIT-5157 is a MEMS TCXO, surprisingly good expecially very deep hard hitting bass.
SiTime has increased prices, this used to sell for 30USD, it is over 50USD at the distributors today.
I am planning to get SIT-5357 which is the low phase noise variant.

BOVTL is a low cost OCXO, Bliley just starting selling  to endusers, they specialize in OCXOs.
This OCXO as a proof of concept to see if it will work in the LKS, I probably order one of their higher end units with low phase noise
BOVTL rms jitter in the 10Hz-10KHz range is 160fs, CCHD950 is 226fs, AS318B is 200fs

Picture of the SIT-5157 mounted on a Twisted Pear Rhea adaptor.
@fmzip, this is what Rhea looks like


----------



## ti5002000

b0bb said:


> Did you buy it from a place other than Audiophonics or Magna ?
> 
> Pulsar is not going to last forever so I am looking for viable alternatives.
> AS318B does not to be on sale anymore
> ...



I have been using the Sitime 5357 for a long time now. It is my favourite with the DAC. Never looked back. 
Great definition in all the aspects of the music. It may not have the low phase of the crystek and the accusilicon but I didn't miss it one bit. It, however, has great frequency stability under temperature and vibration which can explain the good performance. 
I liked the bass of the accusilicon but didn't like the treble. In my opinion, a bit too plastic.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 27, 2020)

ti5002000 said:


> I have been using the Sitime 5357 for a long time now. It is my favourite with the DAC. Never looked back.
> Great definition in all the aspects of the music. It may not have the low phase of the crystek and the accusilicon but I didn't miss it one bit. It, however, has great frequency stability under temperature and vibration which can explain the good performance.
> I liked the bass of the accusilicon but didn't like the treble. In my opinion, a bit too plastic.


SIT-5357 rms jitter is not too far off from the CCHD950
MEMS XOs are more resistant to vibration, if you have the DAC between 2 large speakers
it will perform better than the conventional quartz crystal.


----------



## fmzip (Dec 29, 2020)

b0bb said:


> Markup of some of the common mods
> 
> 
> [3] Tantalum Vcom bypass Qty:2
> ...



b0bb,

Is the polarity marked on the board for installation on the tantalums? If not, is there a marking on the OEM caps that are there?

Thanks for the shot of the Rhea board, I have one on the way


----------



## fmzip (Dec 29, 2020)

AuxInput said:


> My documentation starts on page 171 of this thread, but it's all for the latest generation.
> 
> It's too bad that LKS stopped using a high current regulator for the clock.  I would have liked to use an OCXO, but found that the Accusilicon was absolutely excellent.





Xoverman said:


> I wonder why they put silver mica in the I/V conversation stage ?




Guys,

Where exactly did you solder the .1 uf cap when using the Accusilicon clock? Is it underneath the clock or on the bottom side of the PCB, between pin 7 & 14? Ready to start surgery tomorrow, creating some work instructions for the shop floor.

http://www.accusilicon.com/docs/AS318BM.pdf


----------



## b0bb (Dec 29, 2020)

fmzip said:


> b0bb,
> 
> Is the polarity marked on the board for installation on the tantalums? If not, is there a marking on the OEM caps that are there?


It is marked on my board, remove the original cap to see if  it is there on yours.

The tantalum cap will have a marking for polarity, post pictures if unsure.

Match up the polarity on both the board and cap, do not power on until you have performed this check.
Tantalums are not tolerant of reverse polarity voltage.


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Guys,
> 
> Where exactly did you solder the .1 uf cap when using the Accusilicon clock? Is it underneath the clock or on the bottom side of the PCB, between pin 1 & 14? Ready to start surgery tomorrow, creating some work instructions for the shop floor.
> 
> http://www.accusilicon.com/docs/AS318BM.pdf



Where did you buy AS318 ?


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> Where did you buy AS318 ?



I bought the last one they had at Magna.

Thanks for the explanation on the tantalum cap polarity.  What type of cap is the tantalum cap replacing? I was wondering if there would be a polarity marking under the black covering of the cap if it's not on the board.


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> What type of cap is the tantalum cap replacing?



Aluminum electrolytic


----------



## AuxInput (Dec 29, 2020)

hey guys, I soldered the 0.01uf film cap across the +/- power pins of the clock on the under-side of the board.  The Accusilicon clock is a large format 4-pin clock that inserts directly into the holes on the LKS board.  I ordered mine from Audophonics in UK when they had them.  They still have Accusilicon clocks, but not the 100 mHz requried for LKS.  I'll post pic here again:


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


>





b0bb said:


> [5] Wima 0.15uF 100V 5mm lead spacing metallized polypropylene Qty:14



b0bb,
These recommended by you MKPs bypass the nearby electrolytics?


----------



## fmzip

Step 1-4 completed today. Crystek is on the way and the Accusilicon is installed instead. Might just stick with this clock for awhile since I have the cap soldered on the the back side of the board across pins 7&14 of the dip socket

Very impressed with the upgrades thus far. Quick listen to Norah Jones was extremely enjoyable. Soundstage came forward, everything seemed just tighter, mids and bass were solid. Can't wait to have things settle it. Thank you guys for all the support in walking me through the details! 

Very much appreciated, Happy New Year!



b0bb said:


> Markup of some of the common mods
> 
> Initial set of modifications:
> [1] XO Crystek CCHD950X Qty: 1
> ...





AuxInput said:


> xxxx





Xoverman said:


> xxx


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Did you buy it from a place other than Audiophonics or Magna ?
> 
> Pulsar is not going to last forever so I am looking for viable alternatives.
> AS318B does not seem to be on sale anymore
> ...


Yes,  audiophonics.fr
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/comp...00-ultra-low-jitter-clock-100mhz-p-13728.html
But there out of stock 

B0bb : "I currently evaluating SiTime SIT-5157 and Bliley BOVTL"   
Is the bass better than Pulsar ?


----------



## Xoverman

fmzip said:


> Guys,
> 
> Where exactly did you solder the .1 uf cap when using the Accusilicon clock? Is it underneath the clock or on the bottom side of the PCB, between pin 7 & 14? Ready to start surgery tomorrow, creating some work instructions for the shop floor.
> 
> http://www.accusilicon.com/docs/AS318BM.pdf


Underneath the PCB


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Yes,  audiophonics.fr
> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/comp...00-ultra-low-jitter-clock-100mhz-p-13728.html
> But there out of stock
> 
> ...



SIT-5157 bass hits harder than Pulsar but could do more with finesse, could not really tell the difference between a bass guitar and a double bass,

BOVTL midrange is warmer.

Pulsar has the best balance overall.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Good afternoon guys. Sorry to bother you with a fairly simple question that I already asked here a few days ago but got no answer (... except for a valuable private opinion from "Xoverman" ...) That is: I would like to continue improving the SQ of my LKS with Amanero usb, so I would like, please, your opinion about putting a Singxer su6 between my pc and the dac. Do you think I will take a step forward using the Singxer and its I2S output instead of the direct usb from pc to dac ...? I appreciate any opinion before spending 700 euros of Singxer + hdmi. Happy New Year to all....


----------



## sns109

In case anyone interested in Musetec MH-DA005, I have one in house for a few weeks. Also have in house stock 004 and Auralic Vega for comparison. In a word, 005 is quite a dac, can't understand lack of interest and zero reviews.


----------



## Gilberto 62

I also do not understand that there is no review of the 005, being how it seems to be a top dac and that, in addition, it already incorporates all those cool upgrades that are seen around here ... Something perfect for those who, like me, do not even know change a burned out light bulb ...


----------



## Xoverman (Jan 3, 2021)

b0bb said:


> SIT-5157 bass hits harder than Pulsar but could do more with finesse, could not really tell the difference between a bass guitar and a double bass,
> 
> BOVTL midrange is warmer.
> 
> Pulsar has the best balance overall.


Happy New Year to all of you 

@b0bb  maby it's not the phase noise, but the amount of noise or ripple the is reflected back into the power supply by the crystal .


----------



## piaseczek

Happy New Year!


----------



## JecklinStax

sns109 said:


> In case anyone interested in Musetec MH-DA005, I have one in house for a few weeks. Also have in house stock 004 and Auralic Vega for comparison. In a word, 005 is quite a dac, can't understand lack of interest and zero reviews.


----------



## JecklinStax

I would love to see a comparison of the sound of the da004 vs the new da005. I got my da004 in octobre 2017 and loved it ever since. Is upgrade to a da005 worth it, soundwise?


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> maby it's not the phase noise, but the amount of noise or ripple the is reflected back into the power supply by the critical.



I hope not, if that is happening the voltage regulator is not working correctly.


----------



## fmzip

sns109 said:


> In case anyone interested in Musetec MH-DA005, I have one in house for a few weeks. Also have in house stock 004 and Auralic Vega for comparison. In a word, 005 is quite a dac, can't understand lack of interest and zero reviews.


Thanks for sharing! Was curious as well why there weren't any posts about this DAC


----------



## JecklinStax

Could you tell us a bit more about the audible differences between da005 and da004, please? It would help a lot. I am on the brink of ordering, but really need more info than from the manufacturer alone.


----------



## JecklinStax

sns109 said:


> In case anyone interested in Musetec MH-DA005, I have one in house for a few weeks. Also have in house stock 004 and Auralic Vega for comparison. In a word, 005 is quite a dac, can't understand lack of interest and zero reviews.


Hi sns109,
You are the first source on the DA005 besides the seller! Can you share your impressions of the sound?


----------



## sns109

JecklinStax said:


> Hi sns109,
> You are the first source on the DA005 besides the seller! Can you share your impressions of the sound?


Ok, nice to see some interest.

First some context. Audiophile for well over thirty years, churned through much equipment over the years. I'm also a modder, so I've been following this thread, would have made same parts substitution. I will only touch on my setup, if interested check virtual systems on audiogon under sns. All i's dotted and t's crossed, everything very well thought out. New here because I'm not really into headphones.

I exclusively stream digital from Qobuz and Tidal through Roon, never any DSP. At least 2500 cds ripped to my Synology NAS though Roon. All dacs listened exclusively using Coincident Statement preamp, only Vega was ever tried direct to amp, and then years ago. I've used either my custom buillt 300B SET monoblocks or Coincident Turbo 845 SET amp with all dacs.

First off. Vega vs. 004. I've had the vega in system for around six years, based on reviews I determined it was likely one of best sabre chip dacs. Its only been in last two years or so, I thought vega technology getting long in tooth. So I purchased 004 based on reviews, technology and relatively low cost. I always thought Vega to be a musical dac with decent resolution, just got bored, desired more resolution. 004 definitely filled the resolution need! To sum up my comparison, I heard Vega as the more musical, could play lower sound quality recordings without bother. 004 intrigued me with the added detail, always kept me interested in good recordings, always hearing new information in well known recordings. Over time as I got over the novelty of new information, began to listen more critically. I would describe 004 as a literal dac, exciting but not really moving me emotionally, Vega even with the missing information was more involving. This due to inferior timbre of 004, while vega timbre not exactly great, still better. In my system its easy to track timbre as I have a pretty nice analog setup to keep it real. Another weakness of 004, dynamically inferior to Vega. So, 004 was giving me more info but lacking dynamics, especially micro, missing the breath that gives recordings a sense of life. It seems to me its the micro dynamics of audio equipment most important to replicating living breathing musicians, equipment lacking those micro dynamics flattens the breath, performers become merely information. Final analysis. Vega-superior micro and macro dynamics, more musical because better timbre. 004-superior resolution (detail), soundstaging, imaging, equal transparency, better tonal balance, vega excessive loosey goosey bass in my sytem, 004 more articulate bass albeit less weighty. 

At the end of comparison, decided to keep 004, thought I could mod out deficiencies just as you guys are doing. I modded/parts substitution in a couple previous dacs with good results.

So now 004 vs 005. One word could describe overall experience, transformative. 005 is not simply an improved 004, it is an entirely new experience. 005 resolution is on a whole other level, the black background sensation, sound emanating from the ether. Images simply pop, startling at times, wholly three dimensional images. And individual performers within complex music are so easy to discern, no longer a mash up of sound or wall of sound coming at you. So, soundstaging and imaging amazing. Another area of excellence is dynamics, both micro and macro. Performers sound like flesh and blood because of the superior nuance or breath micro dynamics allow. Again, I need to emphasize this, superior micro dynamics allow the tiny incremental changes in dynamics that is more true to life. Superior macro dynamics means much less compression on transients, I used to think my 300B amp was somewhat lacking in macro terms, nope, its been the vega and 004. Transparency is also amazing. Nothing stands out in tonality, dark recordings sound dark, bright sound bright, seems to be in proper balance. And so now we come to only problematic issue with 005, although I don't think its a dac issue at this point. The issue in question is can there be anything like too much resolution? So, with audiophile and good recordings 005 is simply sublime, real flesh and blood performers in room with me, so organic and real! And then we come to merely decent or what I would call middle of the road recordings, which are probably the vast majority of recordings. They have both good and bad aspects, generally I find these recordings to have some performers, usually the singer, recorded without overdone compression while the instrumentalist are much more compressed and either hard panned to right or left speaker or centered way in background, unbalanced recordings. Another generalized issue with these recordings can be tonality, some way too bright, others too dark. And there can be timbre issues, instruments don't sound like the real thing. 005 extreme resolution brings out the good and bad on these recordings into stark relief, you can choose to listen to the good or bad. Up to now (about 40 hours of detailed listening), my attention generally goes to the good aspects. Over time will my attention go more to bad? And then we had bad recordings. Two types generally fall into this category; digital masters prior to around the year 2000, digital to analog converters pretty bad early on. The other generally fall into the loudness war category, I find many of these to sound big in soundstage sense and transparent, but they have virtually no micro, let alone macro dynamics. Take that away from the 005 which excels in dynamic expression and you're left let down! The humanity of these recordings is lost! 

So we come to a final analysis of 005. A high resolution piece determined in it's goodness by recording quality. If one listens only to audiophile and good recordings, a transformative experience! Middle of road recordings, interesting, involving, can be transformative if one focuses on good aspects. Bad recordings, forget about it!

Will 005 be long term solution for me? Again, at question is, can there be too much resolution? Are sabre chip dacs too detailed without soul as detractors say? I would say no, recordings are the problem! But then, there is a lot of good music recorded poorly. I could stand, even have some involvement with the vega on some of these recordings, the 005 precludes this. As far as sabre based dacs, I suspect 005 is state of art or close, Wyred4sound anniversary or Mytek Manhattan are likely competitors. R2R dacs another possibility, Totaldac and the top of line Mojo audio dacs most interesting to me as they both use Texas Components TX2575 (nude Vishays) resistors. FPGA dacs are interesting, assume designers can voice anyway they like, Mola Mola dac would be my choice here. Bottom line, I place 005 in the higher realm of dacs, only the high priced dacs I mention here are possible replacements.

Sorry I've rambled on here, long read. I just want 005 to get it's fair due, no hype or other reviews anywhere. 

One other thing I've forgotten. I have a Singxer SU-6 in house to be powered by my Uptone JS-2 lps in order to try HDMI/I2S on 005. Still, worth trying in spite of upgraded Amanero USB in 005. Also, its possible 005 performance could be improved by more burn in, aprox. 200 hours, previous experience with silver in audio has determined up to 400 hours burn in could be beneficial.


----------



## JecklinStax

Thanks a lot for your comparison. Your description of the 004 sound is on the button, and the 005 is obviously a huge improvement. I am getting one.


----------



## sns109

JecklinStax said:


> Thanks a lot for your comparison. Your description of the 004 sound is on the button, and the 005 is obviously a huge improvement. I am getting one.


Glad to be of service.


----------



## moss

Yes, thank you for the comparison.  I've been waiting for someone who has both the 004 and 005.  Are you using a computer for your source, or a dedicated streamer / digital player?  I am using an Empirical Audio Off Ramp 5 and HDMI I2s to my 004.


----------



## sns109

moss said:


> Yes, thank you for the comparison.  I've been waiting for someone who has both the 004 and 005.  Are you using a computer for your source, or a dedicated streamer / digital player?  I am using an Empirical Audio Off Ramp 5 and HDMI I2s to my 004.


I'm using mac mini with Uptone audio MMK power supply with Uptone JS-2 lps, only essential services activated on mac mini. USB out into Sotm sms200 neo and/or uptone regen, both powered by lps. Have you compared HDMI to USB?


----------



## b0bb (Jan 4, 2021)

Connector upgrades.

WBT MS210Cu Next-gen RCA
Neutrik NC3MBH-E with enhanced grounding contacts.








WBT does not go on sale too often, PC Connexion had the WBTs at 40% off.
Plating on the stock Cardas started to peel off, I took the opportunity to swap out the connectors

The Neutrik works with shielded XLR cables to keep RF pickup down to a minimum


----------



## b0bb (Jan 4, 2021)

This mod replaces the galvanic isolator on the 004.

Isolator is the chip below the Amanero card




The existing isolator has 2 specific issues that can be improved
1) High jitter about 300ps
2) Noisy, data is sent over a modulated data carrier, LKS did not take steps to deal with noise coming from this.

This creates a bottleneck that limits the performance of the Amanero interface.

The replacement:
1) 3x less jitter, pulse jitter about 100ps
2) Uses different isolation transport, Giant Magneto-Resistive (GMR) vs capacitive, data carrier not required. Much less noise to deal with.
3) Better dielectric isolation, 6kV vs 4kV

Device is the IL715V from NVE Electronics.
Replaces stock ISO7640




This effectively puts the Amanero performance well above that of the SU-6 running stock I2S over HDMI receiver.
The Sipex RS-422 receiver improved things over the stock setup but it still left a lot of room for improvement.

IL715V jitter performance is 3x better that both of the I2S receivers used previously.

It will require changing the I2S receiver to LVDS before the performance of the SU-6 can catch up


----------



## b0bb (Jan 4, 2021)

This is the mod to convert I2S HDMI input to LVDS specs.

The high-end audio industry is adopting LVDS as a de-facto standard.

LKS for reasons known only to itself, decided to use RS-422, a different transport method running higher voltage levels.
This caused LKS to use non-standard I2S signal termination, this limited the performance of the SU-6.




Device is the DS90LV032A, pulse jitter specs match that of the IL715 used with the Amanero.
Replaces stock DS26LV032 part.
This is 3x better than the stock part LKS used.

The other part of the mod is to use LVDS termination, the green rectangular packages in the photo.
100 ohm Vishay PTN Tantalum Nitride resistors.
Non inductive, 0.1%, high stability (10ppm) .





This mod brings I2S performance back to parity with the Amanero USB interface.


----------



## moss

sns109 said:


> I'm using mac mini with Uptone audio MMK power supply with Uptone JS-2 lps, only essential services activated on mac mini. USB out into Sotm sms200 neo and/or uptone regen, both powered by lps. Have you compared HDMI to USB?


I did compare the USB to both BNC and I2s.  I preferred both BNC and I2s to USB, but the USB was the first type used in early 004s.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> This mod replaces the galvanic isolator on the 004.
> 
> Isolator is the chip below the Amanero card
> 
> ...



b0bb,
thanks, another great mod to improve the USB input
Unfortunately there is no NVE IL715V in Mouser.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> thanks, another great mod to improve the USB input
> Unfortunately there is no NVE IL715V in Mouser.


Get it from Digikey UK
https://www.digikey.co.uk/products/en?keywords=il715v


----------



## b0bb (Jan 4, 2021)

moss said:


> ...but the USB was the first type used in early 004s.


The old Amanero USB interface is a well designed piece of hardware and represents significant improvement over the reference design from Amanero.
The main improvement here is the card has a dedicated voltage regulator for each of the active devices on the board.
The regulators play an important role to isolate the devices from power supply disturbance from nearby devices on the board.

In this design, there is a dedicated regulator for each active load

1) Individual regulators for each of the crystals. Total of 3
2) 1 regulator each for the Xilinx CPLD and Atmel Microcontroller. total of 2
3) 1 regulator for the galvanic isolator

Grand total of 6.
The regulator is the low noise ADP151 200mA regulator from Analog Devices.
Marked with a yellow [X]




The new version looks like a product of cost reduction.
The number of regulators have been halved and the job got a lot harder for the regulator as it now has to service demands from more than 1 load device.
Larger capacitors and higher power handling is a poor substitute for an active voltage regulator.




Below is a more detailed markup
Notice that the Xilinx [Xy] chip responsible for the output is about 5x further from the connector compared to the old board
The unshielded traces [T] run between 2 inductors [L] and the magnetic field from the coils does no good to the I2S signal integrity.
The inductors appear shielded to reduce the magnetic disturbance from the coils but they should have avoided the problem with a better layout.




When it comes to LKS and their attempts to update the USB interface, the end result has not always been for the better


----------



## oldearwax

b0bb said:


> The old Amanero USB interface is a well designed piece of hardware and represents significant improvement over the reference design from Amanero.
> The main improvement here is the card has a dedicated voltage regulator for each of the active devices on the board.
> The regulators play an important role to isolate the devices from power supply disturbance from nearby devices on the board.
> 
> ...


 Each regulator in 005 has more pins ... My *guess* is that it is a multi-channel linear LDO serving CoolRunner's multiple IO bank.
 The long power line running from the transformer is gone, double decker no more.
  Are these  good things ???


----------



## b0bb

oldearwax said:


> Each regulator in 005 has more pins ... My *guess* is that it is a multi-channel linear LDO serving CoolRunner's multiple IO bank.
> The long power line running from the transformer is gone, double decker no more.
> Are these  good things ???



Need to see pictures of the 005 regulator, need to see device part numbers to comment.
Double decker places regulator closest to the USB interface.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> This is the mod to convert I2S HDMI input to LVDS specs.
> 
> The high-end audio industry is adopting LVDS as a de-facto standard.
> 
> ...


Great job b0bb.
Does the su-6 have a LVDS output, or is it RS-422  ?


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> This is the mod to convert I2S HDMI input to LVDS specs.
> 
> The high-end audio industry is adopting LVDS as a de-facto standard.
> 
> ...


@b0bb. This mod brings I2S performance back to parity with the Amanero USB interface ?
Please share with us what sonic effect it had to your ears. Focus, tonality, bass?


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Great job b0bb.
> Does the su-6 have a LVDS output, or is it RS-422  ?


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> @b0bb. This mod brings I2S performance back to parity with the Amanero USB interface ?
> Please share with us what sonic effect it had to your ears. Focus, tonality, bass?


Corrects the emphasis of the top end of the stock units which caused the midrange and bass to become quite lean.
This was an issue on the I2S and USB interfaces leading some to use SPDIF.

USB and I2S on the stock DAC was always quite bright and sibilant.
Bass loses its impact due to this overextension of the top end.

Correcting the impedance mismatch and protocol incompatibilities removed a lot of the edginess of the presentation without losing the focus and pinpoint soundstage.
The SU6 in stock form is still inferior to the Amanero, the stock SU6 still has the edgy and grainy sound.
Amanero has a more rounded/organic midrange without the muddyness with the new IL715 isolator,

It will take the replacement of the  digital isolators and lower ESR supercap to beat the Amanero.


----------



## b0bb

SU6 mods
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/singxer-su-6.902272/page-27#post-16094977


----------



## sns109

Musetec LKS-DA005 review continued. I've been throwing mediocre sound quality cd rips and streams at dac, true test for long term enjoyment. 005 only getting better with more hours, now well over 200. I should also add I'm burning in TX 2575 resistors (amazing resistors, been using for years in various equipment, on order of boutique film caps for SQ improvement) and Duelund Silver film bypass cap in power supply of 300B amps. More hours on these and 005 brings about even more refinement/natural timbre, resolution. 005 continues to be revelatory, signal to noise ratio must be near state of art, every well known rip or stream is like hearing for first time. Not merely added information, this increase in resolution organic in nature, more like real performers in room. Mediocre recordings sound more like audiophile recordings, all recordings are much more involving. Power supply of 005 is also first class, so free of any dynamic compression, along with noticeably better micro I initially focused on, macro dynamics are effortless, 300B monoblocks sound more like my 845 SET. Bass which was formerly soft, round sort of flabby with Auralic Vega and just sort of not there with 004, now has amazing reach and articulation, never thought 300B tube could sound like this. 

So we have illusion of performers in room, amazing sound staging and 3D imaging, low level information now exposed as added individual performers and effortless dynamics, add to that more natural timbre and great tonal balance, what's not to like! At this point I cannot detect anything I would change, no weakness I can discern.

I do have one possible reservation for this dac with certain setups. I would describe005 as still on digital side of analog/digital divide. I doubt one would confuse this with r2r dac, there is no doubt this is sabre chip dac. I'm using all SET tube setup, optimized and clean USB, ethernet and AC. Feed 005 quality and it will reward. I've been through much audio equipment over thirty plus years as audiophile, this is a top ten purchase at this point, could go higher. I really need to compare this to Totaldac, Mola Mola, other $10K dacs to estimate its true value, that's how high I rate 005.

As for my Singxer SU6, I have questioned Apos audio, will also question Mutec as to LVDS or RS-422 interface for 005. At the moment I have no qualms using improved Amanero  USB in 005. At some point I'll get around to I2S. I also have Okto 8 stereo dac in house for comparison, highest signal to noise ratio ever measured at audio science review.


----------



## Xoverman

After modding the 004 now for a long long time I get the impression more and more, that the unbufferd XLR output of the DAC is a problem. 
The way and position the XLR cable is lied, or positioned has extrem impact on sound quality and focus. Much more than with other DAC's. 
So my next experiment will be a XLR output buffer. Just to see what happens


----------



## MartinWT

Xoverman said:


> After modding the 004 now for a long long time I get the impression more and more, that the unbufferd XLR output of the DAC is a problem.
> The way and position the XLR cable is lied, or positioned has extrem impact on sound quality and focus. Much more than with other DAC's.
> So my next experiment will be a XLR output buffer. Just to see what happens



Exactly my findings almost a year ago.  Unbuffered XLR output is poor due to insufficient drive.  I found a used Burson AB-160XLR which is outstanding and solved all my problems.  It's between the DAC and power amp, with the LKS used for volume control.  Bass extension and power in my modded LKS is truly superb.


----------



## MartinWT

sns109 said:


> I've been throwing mediocre sound quality cd rips and streams at dac



I use poor recordings for audio assessment, too.  See my list of poor recordings here...

https://theaudiostandard.net/thread/6047/martins-list-recordings


----------



## sns109

MartinWT said:


> I use poor recordings for audio assessment, too.  See my list of poor recordings here...
> 
> https://theaudiostandard.net/thread/6047/martins-list-recordings


Cool, some of the cuts you listed have been in regular rotation at times in the past, specifically Kate Bush Hounds Of Love, Wishbone Ash Argus, ELP Brain Salad Surgery. With my Vega dac I could listen past the ugly except with Brain Salad Surgery, one of the most strident cds ever. Speaking of ELP, Carl Palmer later band Asia, Asia recording worst of the worst. It will be interesting to compare these recordings with the 005, only Brain Salad Surgery and Asia unlistenable with vega. 

As for the bad recent listenings with 005. Club 8 Pleasure stream, edm, genre loudness wars casualty, The Twang 10:20 indie stream loudness wars, Moby Grape Hey Grandma from Vintage, very best of moby grape, pre 2000 cd rip, victim of bad early adc. I could take Club 8 and Twang better with vega. Rod Stewart Cindy's Lament rip from Reason To Believe complete mercury recordings, unbearable with vega, strident and totally congested with vega, actually almost enjoyable with 005, much less congested. Jimmy Dale Gilmore, braver newer world cd rip, small ridiculously narrow center soundstage with vega, widened out with 005, actually quite nice sound. Finally, Country Joe @ Fish, electric music for mind and body, stream, some cuts heavy handed production, bright, other actually pretty natural, great music, vega ho hum, 005 absolutely involving, listened through entirety, wanted more.

Some recordings hard to define at lower end of mediocre, I'm finding some better, some worse vega vs 005. Thus far I've been more bothered with 005 by loudness war recordings, losing micro dynamics really bothers listening with this dac. I'm beginning to understand my emotional reactions to this dac as well, highs are higher, lows are lower, vega more steady state. New equipment break in accompanied by brain/mind break in. Whole lot of good music resides in this area of sq, any dac I'm keeping must be enjoyable with most of it.


----------



## moss

sns109 said:


> Cool, some of the cuts you listed have been in regular rotation at times in the past, specifically Kate Bush Hounds Of Love, Wishbone Ash Argus, ELP Brain Salad Surgery. With my Vega dac I could listen past the ugly except with Brain Salad Surgery, one of the most strident cds ever. Speaking of ELP, Carl Palmer later band Asia, Asia recording worst of the worst. It will be interesting to compare these recordings with the 005, only Brain Salad Surgery and Asia unlistenable with vega.
> 
> As for the bad recent listenings with 005. Club 8 Pleasure stream, edm, genre loudness wars casualty, The Twang 10:20 indie stream loudness wars, Moby Grape Hey Grandma from Vintage, very best of moby grape, pre 2000 cd rip, victim of bad early adc. I could take Club 8 and Twang better with vega. Rod Stewart Cindy's Lament rip from Reason To Believe complete mercury recordings, unbearable with vega, strident and totally congested with vega, actually almost enjoyable with 005, much less congested. Jimmy Dale Gilmore, braver newer world cd rip, small ridiculously narrow center soundstage with vega, widened out with 005, actually quite nice sound. Finally, Country Joe @ Fish, electric music for mind and body, stream, some cuts heavy handed production, bright, other actually pretty natural, great music, vega ho hum, 005 absolutely involving, listened through entirety, wanted more.
> 
> Some recordings hard to define at lower end of mediocre, I'm finding some better, some worse vega vs 005. Thus far I've been more bothered with 005 by loudness war recordings, losing micro dynamics really bothers listening with this dac. I'm beginning to understand my emotional reactions to this dac as well, highs are higher, lows are lower, vega more steady state. New equipment break in accompanied by brain/mind break in. Whole lot of good music resides in this area of sq, any dac I'm keeping must be enjoyable with most of it.


Thank you for your useful review of the 005.  I just put in my order.  About how long did it take to get to you?


----------



## sns109

moss said:


> Thank you for your useful review of the 005.  I just put in my order.  About how long did it take to get to you?


Good choice! Can't recall exactly, I do remember contacting Apos audio when I didn't hear anything for about a week after ordering. They responded by upgrading shipping DHL, only took a few days. If they sent it via china post, then usps expect long wait. USPS sucks these days, recent purchase of some volume pots from Canada via Canada Post, three days from Ontario to Chicago, seventeen days Chicago to Michigan!  I'd check with seller to see if sent DHL or China post, I'd pay the extra for DHL. If you question them perhaps you'll get the free dhl if not already shipping via that service.


----------



## moss

When I bought from Shenzhen Audio in the past, it always came via DHL in about 3 days.  I ordered some raw drivers from China recently, but they were delayed due to Covid.  I recently got some equipment from Vancouver.  Once it got to the US, it only took 2 days to get to me in Los Angeles.


----------



## sns109

moss said:


> When I bought from Shenzhen Audio in the past, it always came via DHL in about 3 days.  I ordered some raw drivers from China recently, but they were delayed due to Covid.  I recently got some equipment from Vancouver.  Once it got to the US, it only took 2 days to get to me in Los Angeles.


Yeah, anytime ordering anything from China and you want it sooner than later insist on DHL express. China post and transfer to USPS will result in many weeks in US customs, then add hopeless USPS domestic shipping. Allen Park Michigan distribution center has trucks full of mail sitting for over a week during Christmas holidays. Chicago customs horrible, New York customs not much better. I would also suggest all international purchases be shipped via the private shipping services, I also have horror stories of shipments from Australia and Europe.


----------



## fmzip

MartinWT said:


> xxxx



Martin, I mirrored your doorstop idea


----------



## tdrood

sns109 said:


> Musetec LKS-DA005 review continued. I've been throwing mediocre sound quality cd rips and streams at dac, true test for long term enjoyment. 005 only getting better with more hours, now well over 200. I should also add I'm burning in TX 2575 resistors (amazing resistors, been using for years in various equipment, on order of boutique film caps for SQ improvement) and Duelund Silver film bypass cap in power supply of 300B amps. More hours on these and 005 brings about even more refinement/natural timbre, resolution. 005 continues to be revelatory, signal to noise ratio must be near state of art, every well known rip or stream is like hearing for first time. Not merely added information, this increase in resolution organic in nature, more like real performers in room. Mediocre recordings sound more like audiophile recordings, all recordings are much more involving. Power supply of 005 is also first class, so free of any dynamic compression, along with noticeably better micro I initially focused on, macro dynamics are effortless, 300B monoblocks sound more like my 845 SET. Bass which was formerly soft, round sort of flabby with Auralic Vega and just sort of not there with 004, now has amazing reach and articulation, never thought 300B tube could sound like this.
> 
> So we have illusion of performers in room, amazing sound staging and 3D imaging, low level information now exposed as added individual performers and effortless dynamics, add to that more natural timbre and great tonal balance, what's not to like! At this point I cannot detect anything I would change, no weakness I can discern.
> 
> ...


How does the Octo 8 sound/perform? Stereophile/Atkinson had very good things to say about it. I am not quite done with my 004 yet, but am curious about the 005 and the Octo.


----------



## sns109

tdrood said:


> How does the Octo 8 sound/perform? Stereophile/Atkinson had very good things to say about it. I am not quite done with my 004 yet, but am curious about the 005 and the Octo.


Only some preliminary listening with one of my cheap headphones, no serious listening until I get in main system. Hopefully I'll get around to it a couple weeks. Weight differential between these two dacs pretty severe, Okto light, 005 weighty. Does weight have anything to do with sound quality? I guess I'll find out. Purchased the Okto prior to 005,  waited 15 weeks for delivery. Mainly purchased for streaming ability, Okto can be Roon endpoint, replaces Sotm Sms 200 neo, so one less piece of equipment in signal path.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> This is the mod to convert I2S HDMI input to LVDS specs.
> 
> The high-end audio industry is adopting LVDS as a de-facto standard.
> 
> ...


Hello everybody i have some good news for some of you  
Yesterday i upgraded some capacitors for a friend on his 004, and noticed that KLS switched to a different device for the I2S interface. ( DS90LV032A )
I then check-out my 004, and it also uses the DS90LV032A.


----------



## piaseczek

Xoverman said:


> Hello everybody i have some good news for some of you
> Yesterday i upgraded some capacitors for a friend on his 004, and noticed that KLS switched to a different device for the I2S interface. ( DS90LV032A )
> I then check-out my 004, and it also uses the DS90LV032A.



In mine there is also the same DS90LV032A for the i2s input. 

Unfortunately for the usb input there is the jittery ISO7640.


----------



## b0bb (Jan 13, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Hello everybody i have some good news for some of you
> Yesterday i upgraded some capacitors for a friend on his 004, and noticed that KLS switched to a different device for the I2S interface. ( DS90LV032A )
> I then check-out my 004, and it also uses the DS90LV032A.



Nice.

DS90LV032A is what I used as replacement, good to see LKS corrected this shortcoming in later revisions of the 004

Have you tried running PCM 705k/768k on your Gen2 004?


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> This is the mod to convert I2S HDMI input to LVDS specs.
> 
> The high-end audio industry is adopting LVDS as a de-facto standard.
> 
> ...


@ B0bb,
did you soder that electrolytic capacitor next to the DS90LV032A ? 
My DAC has a bigger ceramic capacitor at that position


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> @ B0bb,
> did you soder that electrolytic capacitor next to the DS90LV032A ?
> My DAC has a bigger ceramic capacitor at that position


LKS changed to ceramics on the Gen2.
Ceramics have low ESR but lacks the ripple current capacity.
Need the current capability to drive the very long trace lengths on the 004, seems like a very odd choice to go to ceramics.

I swapped the stock 470uF to 820uF with about 3x increase in ripple current capability, there is still a ceramic bypass so ESR is not expected to be an issue.
The 820uF is a newer line of the FP cap series


----------



## rettib2001

The recent discoveries regarding lvds compatibility are interesting and I’d like to dive back in.

This being said does the issue of lks using a strange hdmi cable configuration still make finding a suitable hdmi i2s transmitter difficult?
From memory, only the Singxer interfaces and their handy dip switches, allowed for a pain free setup. Most others seem to be designed for Gustard/ps audio pin layouts.


----------



## rettib2001

MartinWT said:


> Exactly my findings almost a year ago.  Unbuffered XLR output is poor due to insufficient drive.  I found a used Burson AB-160XLR which is outstanding and solved all my problems.  It's between the DAC and power amp, with the LKS used for volume control.  Bass extension and power in my modded LKS is truly superb.


I’m interested at looking a little closer at the unbuffered xlr output issue, I remember looking at the Burson buffer you mentioned last year when

Is the issue amp dependent or a global issue?

My purifi class d amp has an input buffer, does that go some way to addressing the issue or do you think an xlr buffer between the Dac and amp is still needed in this configuration?
Thanks in advance!


----------



## piaseczek

rettib2001 said:


> My purifi class d amp has an input buffer, does that go some way to addressing the issue or do you think an xlr buffer between the Dac and amp is still needed in this configuration?
> Thanks in advance!



In my humble opinion if you have a buffer in power amplifier you don't need another one.


----------



## b0bb (Jan 16, 2021)

rettib2001 said:


> The recent discoveries regarding lvds compatibility are interesting and I’d like to dive back in.
> 
> This being said does the issue of lks using a strange hdmi cable configuration still make finding a suitable hdmi i2s transmitter difficult?
> From memory, only the Singxer interfaces and their handy dip switches, allowed for a pain free setup. Most others seem to be designed for Gustard/ps audio pin layouts.


The Singxers (SU1,SU2,SU6) work with the 004, it is quite fussy about the hdmi cable due to LKS using non standard 120 ohm termination at the receiver.
The later revisions of the 004 have a LVDS receiver chip. Singxers use LVDS for transmission.

The termination resistors on the 004 can be replaced with 100 ohm ones if you are really bothered about it.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> LKS changed to ceramics on the Gen2.
> Ceramics have low ESR but lacks the ripple current capacity.
> Need the current capability to drive the very long trace lengths on the 004, seems like a very odd choice to go to ceramics.
> 
> ...


Did you notice a sonic  difference?


----------



## b0bb (Jan 16, 2021)

rettib2001 said:


> I’m interested at looking a little closer at the unbuffered xlr output issue, I remember looking at the Burson buffer you mentioned last year when
> 
> Is the issue amp dependent or a global issue?
> 
> ...



The rule of thumb is max 10k/500pF loading on the XLR output. If this is exceeded the frequency response of the final stage analog filter will be audibly different.
The 10k is mostly due to the input impedance of the next stage, if it is lower than this you will need a buffer.

Similarly the 500pF can be divided as 100pF input capacitance for the next stage, leaving 400pF for the cables.
Recording studio grade patch cable like Canare L4-6ES and Mogami W2534 have capacitance less than 150pF/m, a 2m cable can be used without needing a buffer.
Longer runs will require a buffer.

Fat audiophile style cables probably will need a buffer due to higher capacitance


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Did you notice a sonic  difference?


Was not looking specifically at the cap on the LVDS receiver.

The caps are 820uF Nichicon FP RNL series
They were there to support faster line drivers. These are current hungry.
These carry the heaviest burden driving > 200mm of PCB trace from the inputs to the 9038s

LKS uses the 74HC244 line driver, later versions the 74AC244.
Quite slow, pulse rise times are 10-20ns

I replaced them with the 74LVT244, 4ns rise time, 2.5x faster, current demand goes up 6.25x (the square law...)
This part of the reason I increased regulator capacities to 3A, to take advantage of idle capacity in the 2x50VA transformers

1) Complete elimination of sibilance, no more Sabre style annoyance
2) No more momentary loss of DPLL lock going from 44k DSD to 48k DSD  
3) Almost eliminated clicks on start/stop while changing sample rates
4) No loss of micro detail when things get very loud
5) My 004 will now accept 768k PCM, no DSD1024 yet..


----------



## b0bb

@Whitigir 768k PCM...





The mod that made it possible, new 74LVT244 line driver for the 004


----------



## rettib2001

Thanks for your answers!

The specific product I have in mind is the following (to be used with an accompanying hat called the ultimate  fifo).

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/dac-...pdif-low-jitter-for-raspberry-pi-p-14232.html

Would I need to make a diy hdmi cable with one slightly modified end to suit the lks’s hdmi pin layout?
The aim is to be be able to play content up sampled to dsd512.


----------



## b0bb (Jan 16, 2021)

rettib2001 said:


> Thanks for your answers!
> 
> The specific product I have in mind is the following (to be used with an accompanying hat called the ultimate  fifo).
> 
> ...


004 requires Pin 14 on HDMI to be logic high to process DSD.
Pin 14 is not connected on this board, any changes will have to be on the board not the HDMI cable.
Cutting open and modifying the HDMI cable is not recommended.

LKS






IAN Canada TransportPI


----------



## MartinWT

rettib2001 said:


> Is the issue amp dependent or a global issue?
> 
> My purifi class d amp has an input buffer, does that go some way to addressing the issue or do you think an xlr buffer between the Dac and amp is still needed in this configuration



I can't speak for your amp, but in general I have found both the single-ended and XLR outputs weak, with insufficient drive.

You may get it right with carefully selected cables, but a buffer has negligible insertion loss and will definitely sort it.


----------



## b0bb (Jan 16, 2021)

MartinWT said:


> I can't speak for your amp, but in general I have found both the single-ended and XLR outputs weak, with insufficient drive.
> 
> You may get it right with carefully selected cables, but a buffer has negligible insertion loss and will definitely sort it.


You seem dissatisfied with the output capability of the LKS, suggest you talk to your buddy at Coherent who does your LKS mods.
The fix is to adjust the current limiting resistor at the output.

This item is a few cents plus the labour for the tech doing the work, much cheaper than the buffer you are using.

The transistors LKS used is capable of dumping 6A peak current into the load, so some form of current limiting is required to prevent turning downstream equipment into an expensive smoking wreck.
*DO NOT* short or bypass this resistor.

In the picture below, the current limiting resistor is the vertical one with the orange bands is between the 2 large transistors connected to the RCA output.
Value is 3.3k, perhaps a little high, LKS was probably worried that the high power capabilities of the output transistors causing damage.


----------



## rettib2001

b0bb said:


> 004 requires Pin 14 on HDMI to be logic high to process DSD.
> Pin 14 is not connected on this board, any changes will have to be on the board not the HDMI cable.
> Cutting open and modifying the HDMI cable is not recommended.
> 
> ...



I was worried that would be the solution.

I wouldn’t know where to start modifying a board like this.

 I’ll ask the person that makes them to see if there is a relatively easy work around.

Thanks


----------



## b0bb (Jan 16, 2021)

rettib2001 said:


> I was worried that would be the solution.
> 
> I wouldn’t know where to start modifying a board like this.
> 
> ...


Talk to IanCanada, you could do a permanent pull up of pin14 if you are willing to use DSD exclusively.
There might be some software workarounds needed to accomplish this.


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> In the picture below, the current limiting resistor is the vertical one with the orange bands is between the 2 large transistors connected to the RCA output.
> Value is 3.3k, perhaps a little high, LKS was probably worried that the high power capabilities of the output transistors causing damage.



Thank you, b0bb, that's very useful information.  It does explain the relatively high output impedance.

I shall be doing the I/V resistors and Vcom caps myself soon.  Tony has far more professional equipment than me and I found the LKS PCB hard to work with using standard equipment, so I'll see about those resistors.  No hurry, as my buffer does a great job, but it'll be one to put right at some point down the line.


----------



## JBP3

Question about HQPlayer:

I recently purchased the new Mac mini M1 and installed HQPlayer Desktop on it. I have set up Preferences to use SDM (DSD), poly-sync-mp, and ASDM7EC as recommended by our friends over at AudiophileStyle where HQPlayer is supported. Problem is, as soon as I press play, HQPlayer switches to PCM, poly-sinc-lp, TPDF, and the format conversion is from 44.1 / 16 to 352.8 / 32. I can't get HQPlayer to play to DSD and the highly recommended ASDM7EC shaper. 

The Max mini plays to an NAA installed on an IBM NUC7PJYH then to the LKS USB.

I thought I would start here first for some help, as the problem may be the way I have set up the LKS. Any ideas?

Thanks John


----------



## b0bb (Jan 16, 2021)

JBP3 said:


> Question about HQPlayer:
> 
> I recently purchased the new Mac mini M1 and installed HQPlayer Desktop on it. I have set up Preferences to use SDM (DSD), poly-sync-mp, and ASDM7EC as recommended by our friends over at AudiophileStyle where HQPlayer is supported. Problem is, as soon as I press play, HQPlayer switches to PCM, poly-sinc-lp, TPDF, and the format conversion is from 44.1 / 16 to 352.8 / 32. I can't get HQPlayer to play to DSD and the highly recommended ASDM7EC shaper.
> 
> ...



The NAA must report it can do DSD otherwise you can get kicked back to PCM, this capability information is reported  in the logfile.


----------



## JecklinStax

sns109 said:


> Cool, some of the cuts you listed have been in regular rotation at times in the past, specifically Kate Bush Hounds Of Love, Wishbone Ash Argus, ELP Brain Salad Surgery. With my Vega dac I could listen past the ugly except with Brain Salad Surgery, one of the most strident cds ever. Speaking of ELP, Carl Palmer later band Asia, Asia recording worst of the worst. It will be interesting to compare these recordings with the 005, only Brain Salad Surgery and Asia unlistenable with vega.
> 
> As for the bad recent listenings with 005. Club 8 Pleasure stream, edm, genre loudness wars casualty, The Twang 10:20 indie stream loudness wars, Moby Grape Hey Grandma from Vintage, very best of moby grape, pre 2000 cd rip, victim of bad early adc. I could take Club 8 and Twang better with vega. Rod Stewart Cindy's Lament rip from Reason To Believe complete mercury recordings, unbearable with vega, strident and totally congested with vega, actually almost enjoyable with 005, much less congested. Jimmy Dale Gilmore, braver newer world cd rip, small ridiculously narrow center soundstage with vega, widened out with 005, actually quite nice sound. Finally, Country Joe @ Fish, electric music for mind and body, stream, some cuts heavy handed production, bright, other actually pretty natural, great music, vega ho hum, 005 absolutely involving, listened through entirety, wanted more.
> 
> Some recordings hard to define at lower end of mediocre, I'm finding some better, some worse vega vs 005. Thus far I've been more bothered with 005 by loudness war recordings, losing micro dynamics really bothers listening with this dac. I'm beginning to understand my emotional reactions to this dac as well, highs are higher, lows are lower, vega more steady state. New equipment break in accompanied by brain/mind break in. Whole lot of good music resides in this area of sq, any dac I'm keeping must be enjoyable with most of it.


I ordered a 005 on the basis of your excellent review. It should be here tomorrow (though I cannot believe it yet). Have you had the opportunity to try one or more of the usual usb cleaners, i.e. Uptone, Intona, Mutec, iPurifier?


----------



## sns109

You should like this dac! I do use SOTM SMS200 neo and/or Uptone USB regen, use them in combination, find that's better than either used individually. Both are powered by LPS, sms by Uptone JS-2, uptone by teradak. Audioquest Diamond USB cable with 5v power pin taped off. 

Now have over 300 hours on 005, sound only gets more natural with the added burn, in my experience silver can take up to 400 hours to sound best. Please leave review, those interested in this dac deserve more than a single reviewer.


----------



## wersuss (Jan 17, 2021)

Hey guys just replaced resistors on my speaker crossovers to path audio. Sound is so deep and beautiful with this dac now.Thought maybe possible to use these resisors in lks 004 aswell?


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Hey guys just replaced resistors on my speaker crossovers to path audio. Sound is so deep and beautiful with this dac now.Thought maybe possible to use these resisors in lks 004 aswell?


Try it and post your impressions


----------



## fmzip

Are any of you using Roon to upsample? USB out from my Sonore UltraRendu to the LKS, it alloows me the upsampling choice of DSD64 & DSD 128 in Roon. If I take the USB out from my UltraRendu and feed it into my Sonore Ultradigital the out i2s to the LKS, Roon offers me the the options of DSD64, 128 and 256. My Roon Core is a SGC I5 SonicTransporter.

I updated the firmware on the Amanero board, still don't have the ability to see the option for selecting DSD512. Any suggestions as to what I am missing? Does Roon limit the options to the ability of the Core?


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Are any of you using Roon to upsample? USB out from my Sonore UltraRendu to the LKS, it alloows me the upsampling choice of DSD64 & DSD 128 in Roon. If I take the USB out from my UltraRendu and feed it into my Sonore Ultradigital the out i2s to the LKS, Roon offers me the the options of DSD64, 128 and 256. My Roon Core is a SGC I5 SonicTransporter.
> 
> I updated the firmware on the Amanero board, still don't have the ability to see the option for selecting DSD512. Any suggestions as to what I am missing? Does Roon limit the options to the ability of the Core?


Are you using native DSD mode?
Required for DSD512


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> Are you using native DSD mode?
> Required for DSD512


Bobb,

I don't know where native DSD mode is located, it's not an option for me under the Sonore UltraRendu in Roon...

In reading this, it appears the Sonore UltraDigital is only capable of DSD256? I have the DIP switch in the Sonore configured to the LKS example they are showing. Would turning switch 2 to "off" allow native DSD mode?

https://www.sonore.us/ultraDigital.html

You mentioned that your SU2 and SU6 does upsampling to DSD512 correct? Which would you suggest to buy if I were to try one?


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Bobb,
> 
> I don't know where native DSD mode is located, it's not an option for me under the Sonore UltraRendu in Roon...
> 
> ...


Talk to Sonore to check Native DSD mode on the Amanero is correctly detected on the ultrarendu.
SU2 and SU6 are interface boxes, no upsampling.
I use HQplayer to create the DSD512 stream.


----------



## fmzip (Jan 20, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Talk to Sonore to check Native DSD mode on the Amanero is correctly detected on the ultrarendu.
> SU2 and SU6 are interface boxes, no upsampling.
> I use HQplayer to create the DSD512 stream.



Got it! I can now upsample to DSD512 with my Sonore UltraRendu/Ultradigital.

My Sonictransporter I5 hiccups with anything other than 44.1 tracks

Bobb,  are you using a fanless Linux/NUC? Would like to know how to build/buy a fanless NUC running Rock that can handle pretty much anything I throw at it for upsampling to DSD512. SGC only offers an I9 which may be overkill for me


----------



## JecklinStax

sns109 said:


> You should like this dac! I do use SOTM SMS200 neo and/or Uptone USB regen, use them in combination, find that's better than either used individually. Both are powered by LPS, sms by Uptone JS-2, uptone by teradak. Audioquest Diamond USB cable with 5v power pin taped off.
> 
> Now have over 300 hours on 005, sound only gets more natural with the added burn, in my experience silver can take up to 400 hours to sound best. Please leave review, those interested in this dac deserve more than a single reviewer.


Well, a DA005 is here now, playing all kinds of music, human voice and blockbuster movie sounds. First impressions are a relief! Everything sounds clearly better. I was really worried to pay a lot of money for what might turn out to be only a slightly audible update of the already capable DA004.  It is not. I shall write more in 1 or 2 weeks or so.


----------



## fmzip

JecklinStax said:


> Well, a DA005 is here now, playing all kinds of music, human voice and blockbuster movie sounds. First impressions are a relief! Everything sounds clearly better. I was really worried to pay a lot of money for what might turn out to be only a slightly audible update of the already capable DA004.  It is not. I shall write more in 1 or 2 weeks or so.


It's a considerable cost difference so I would hope so. What is the landed cost for one?


----------



## JecklinStax

fmzip said:


> It's a considerable cost difference so I would hope so. What is the landed cost for one?


I hoped so indeed but couldn't be sure. I bought one via Ebay.de from Clear Components in Cologne, Germany. They are L.K.S rep. I paid 3.025 Euros including €30 for shipping it to me in the Netherlands. If I had ordered it from Shenzhen Audio I believe it would have been €2.700 + 25% for import duties + VAT.....


----------



## sns109

fmzip said:


> It's a considerable cost difference so I would hope so. What is the landed cost for one?


Difficult to make perfectly valid value propositions as per audio components. Dependent on context of what existing sytem minus dac can support as to resolution. Also, can any single person hear all competing dacs at any particular price point. 


My take is the 005 is easily more than worth the slightly more than double the cost of STOCK 004. The difference between stock 004 and 005 is 004 presents resolution as added details you wouldn't have heard in lesser dac, 005 presents that information as humans performing music. That difference is worth far more than the $1900 price differential between the two. Upgrade from 004 to 005, sell your used 004 for aprox. $850, perhaps more, upgrade to 005 $2400 or so, no brainer. Keep in mind system has to be able to support this added level of resolution.

As for modded 004, value proposition changes, especially if you can diy mods. Pay someone else the labor for mods, forget about it. The only thing I will say about the specific mods to 004 here, there are aspects of 005 that no amount of mods to 004 can duplicate. At the same time, I understand there's an inherent satisfaction to diy mods, I modded the hell out of a Perpetual Technology dac setup in early 2000's, that Frankenstein dac kept me happy for many years, outdid many far more expensive dacs.

I only wish I knew where the 005 stands in relation to top end dacs, I estimate pretty far up there based on parts, design and subjective listening.


----------



## b0bb (Jan 20, 2021)

fmzip said:


> Got it! I can now upsample to DSD512 with my Sonore UltraRendu/Ultradigital.
> 
> My Sonictransporter I5 hiccups with anything other than 44.1 tracks
> 
> Bobb,  are you using a fanless Linux/NUC? Would like to know how to build/buy a fanless NUC running Rock that can handle pretty much anything I throw at it for upsampling to DSD512. SGC only offers an I9 which may be overkill for me



I use a NUC8i3 for the endpoint  and a i9-9900KS for the audio renderer/resampler. SGC is right on the money suggesting an i9, doing a quality job with DSD512 is processor cycle intensive.

Both run linux.

The BIOS in the NUC8 can be setup to stop the fan unless things got real toasty.


----------



## JecklinStax

sns109 said:


> Difficult to make perfectly valid value propositions as per audio components. Dependent on context of what existing sytem minus dac can support as to resolution. Also, can any single person hear all competing dacs at any particular price point.
> 
> 
> My take is the 005 is easily more than worth the slightly more than double the cost of STOCK 004. The difference between stock 004 and 005 is 004 presents resolution as added details you wouldn't have heard in lesser dac, 005 presents that information as humans performing music. That difference is worth far more than the $1900 price differential between the two. Upgrade from 004 to 005, sell your used 004 for aprox. $850, perhaps more, upgrade to 005 $2400 or so, no brainer. Keep in mind system has to be able to support this added level of resolution.
> ...


 
After replacing my (unmodified) DA004 by the 005 I let it do what the 004 did: decoding digital audio from my streamer and TV (+ streaming services).

Setup as follows:
(1) Intel NUC6CAYH (Celeron J3455) with Audirvana, streaming Qobuz and my own cd-rips and HR files from a built-in SSD.
Between NUC usb out and AES input of the 004 I had a Mutec 3+USB. I sold the Mutec, and the NUC now goes into Amanero usb of 005 via a new iFi iPurifier 3.
(2) Between the extremely jittery Toslink out of the TV and 004 I had the excellent iFi S/PDIF iPurifier *2*. I kept this brilliant no-brainer for the 005.
Further downstream:
– nCore 400 power amp + Canton Vento 590 II,
– Spritzer KGSSHV + Stax SR-007.

Defining moments in the first days with the 005:
– In the opening scene of The Wolfs Call (a 2019 French thriller with submarines, on Amazon Prime Video) a jetfighter flies in a straight line from left to right through the image. My jaw dropped because of the precise localization of the plane in the sound image, and especially the way this precision was maintained long after the jet had passed my right speaker! Exceptional stereo quality.
– With the 004 I found it hard to find the right measure of toe-in of the speakers. I had to compromise between unpleasantly strident highs when the speakers were aimed directly at me, and significant loss of treble when I reduced the toe-in angle. With 005 this problem is gone: I aimed the speakers right at the listening spot and was rewarded with the right amount of clear and delicate treble. No sharpness at all.

Transparency always a very strong point of 004. I dared not hope 005 would be better on this point. Well, it is. A lot. The tone is full and 'weighty', and reminds me of vinyl (I have a refurbished Dual 621 with Ortofon OM40 + Fritz Gyger stylus).

I realize this thread is mainly devoted to modifications of 004, so heaping praise on 005 here might seem disrespectful to those efforts. Maybe the 005 deserves its own thread?

In the last five years or so my rig gave me better and better sound, but I never believed it was 'high-end'. I do now. I believe the Musetec DA005 is an end-game DAC. I would very much like to see it compared with competitors, such as the Okto Stereo 8!


----------



## fmzip

JecklinStax said:


> After replacing my (unmodified) DA004 by the 005 I let it do what the 004 did: decoding digital audio from my streamer and TV (+ streaming services).
> 
> Setup as follows:
> (1) Intel NUC6CAYH (Celeron J3455) with Audirvana, streaming Qobuz and my own cd-rips and HR files from a built-in SSD.
> ...



Nice summary Jecklin!

I am finding the same issue verbatim regarding toe-in/toe out with the -004.

I am finding -005 input helpful in this thread as it may be a stepping up point for -004 owners. I say you start an -005 thread as well


----------



## wersuss (Jan 23, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Try it and post your impressions


Hi. I did some mods to this Dac since past it's getting better, but biggest wow was just lately after chaning resistors in speakers crossovers to Ptathaudio, now DAC sounds different level, amplifier sounds like different amp, preamp sounds other level everything sounds clean smooth and vivid, i went to path resistors after Mills MRA12. Mills sounded too neautral and dry lifeless. Even capacitors didn't made such difference as resistors hard to believe that.


----------



## b0bb (Jan 23, 2021)

wersuss said:


> Hi. I did some mods to this Dac since past it's getting better, but biggest wow was just lately after chaning resistors in speakers crossovers to Ptathaudio, now DAC sounds different level, amplifier sounds like different amp, preamp sounds other level everything sounds clean smooth and vivid, i went to path resistors after Mills MRA12. Mills sounded too neautral and dry lifeless. Even capacitors didn't made such difference as resistors hard to believe that.


Cool.
You found and removed a bottleneck in your speaker crossovers.

Mills MRA series are quite optimistic in their power handling specs.
I use them in headphone amps.


Did you try Audio Note's KAISEI ?
I ordered some to try but the vendor ran out of stock at shipping, so I used the Mundorfs for the 004 instead.





Supposedly the second coming of Blackgate (... if you believe the marketing)


----------



## JecklinStax

fmzip said:


> Nice summary Jecklin!
> 
> I am finding the same issue verbatim regarding toe-in/toe out with the -004.
> 
> I am finding -005 input helpful in this thread as it may be a stepping up point for -004 owners. I say you start an -005 thread as well


Well, as long as 004 owners tolerate 005 buyers here, we can happily stay here a while. I'd like to add to my summary of the 005: Bass has a lot more oomph, and is at the same time very well defined and controlled. No flopping around. Dynamics are very lively and natural. Broadly, I concur with the excellent and detailed review of sns109.


----------



## sns109

JecklinStax said:


> Well, as long as 004 owners tolerate 005 buyers here, we can happily stay here a while. I'd like to add to my summary of the 005: Bass has a lot more oomph, and is at the same time very well defined and controlled. No flopping around. Dynamics are very lively and natural. Broadly, I concur with the excellent and detailed review of sns109.


JecklinStax, I think its time we start a 005 thread. I only entered this thread after reading through entire thread at 200 some pages, and having purchased a 004 with the intention of following these esteemed modders with their incredible changes to 004. Only after doing a bit more research on 005 did I purchase on pure speculation of how it would sound. And so my original intention was only to compare 005 to STOCK 004. Now it seems we are doing a bit of hijacking of thread. I am open to starting a new thread, but being a noob here I don't feel qualified. Anyway, I do salute the incredibly generous leaders of 004 mods here, much time spent researching replacement parts and then surface mount solder work! You guys deserve a lot of respect for sharing and your pcb skills.

And so my last word on 005 in this thread. Last 14 hours of listening have been quite ear opening! I can only say this dac is organic in nature, no semblance of digititus any more. Massed violins that sound like real massed violins, the hardest test of timbre I know of. Well, this dac passes with flying colors! A heroic power supply supplies the micro dynamics of human breath, never any macro dynamic compression, transients sound unforced and simply flow. Follow that with a neutral tonal balance, dark recordings sound dark, bright sound bright, and just right on for every tonal shading. Add the still improving natural timbre, the natural harmonics of instruments and voice that people equate with analog sound. Add all this together, just wow! I can now unreservedly recommend this dac. This dac should be highly resolving and organic in any system capable of exposing it's potential. If it doesn't sound right look elsewhere in your system.

JacklinStax, I would suggest you start new 005 thread if you feel comfortable in that. I will be happy to contribute, again, being a noob here I'm not sure I would get the respect a more veteran member of this forum would.


----------



## JecklinStax

sns109 said:


> JecklinStax, I think its time we start a 005 thread. I only entered this thread after reading through entire thread at 200 some pages, and having purchased a 004 with the intention of following these esteemed modders with their incredible changes to 004. Only after doing a bit more research on 005 did I purchase on pure speculation of how it would sound. And so my original intention was only to compare 005 to STOCK 004. Now it seems we are doing a bit of hijacking of thread. I am open to starting a new thread, but being a noob here I don't feel qualified. Anyway, I do salute the incredibly generous leaders of 004 mods here, much time spent researching replacement parts and then surface mount solder work! You guys deserve a lot of respect for sharing and your pcb skills.
> 
> And so my last word on 005 in this thread. Last 14 hours of listening have been quite ear opening! I can only say this dac is organic in nature, no semblance of digititus any more. Massed violins that sound like real massed violins, the hardest test of timbre I know of. Well, this dac passes with flying colors! A heroic power supply supplies the micro dynamics of human breath, never any macro dynamic compression, transients sound unforced and simply flow. Follow that with a neutral tonal balance, dark recordings sound dark, bright sound bright, and just right on for every tonal shading. Add the still improving natural timbre, the natural harmonics of instruments and voice that people equate with analog sound. Add all this together, just wow! I can now unreservedly recommend this dac. This dac should be highly resolving and organic in any system capable of exposing it's potential. If it doesn't sound right look elsewhere in your system.
> 
> JacklinStax, I would suggest you start new 005 thread if you feel comfortable in that. I will be happy to contribute, again, being a noob here I'm not sure I would get the respect a more veteran member of this forum would.


Sns109, I get your point. Yes, we are hijacking the premier DA004 forum. Plus I share your enthousiasm for this machine. Massed strings, yes! Why is that still so hard, after almost half a century of digital? I suspect the 005 could effortlessly do a convincing heavy Brahms symphony; did not try it yet. And sure would I like to see contributions of like-minded audiophiles, and especially comparisons between this one and the likes of Denafrips Terminator and Mola Mola (and your Okto Stereo 8). So I must be a 'thread starter'? I wouldn't know how to go about it. Which button do I press? Do I have to give a statement of intent? Admonish people to stay on topic, and moderate uncouth language?


----------



## sns109

JecklinStax said:


> Sns109, I get your point. Yes, we are hijacking the premier DA004 forum. Plus I share your enthousiasm for this machine. Massed strings, yes! Why is that still so hard, after almost half a century of digital? I suspect the 005 could effortlessly do a convincing heavy Brahms symphony; did not try it yet. And sure would I like to see contributions of like-minded audiophiles, and especially comparisons between this one and the likes of Denafrips Terminator and Mola Mola (and your Okto Stereo 8). So I must be a 'thread starter'? I wouldn't know how to go about it. Which button do I press? Do I have to give a statement of intent? Admonish people to stay on topic, and moderate uncouth language?


Being a new member, I believe I've discovered how to post new thread. Press on forums at top of page, press on dedicated source components forum, you'll see blue button for posting new threads. If you start new 005 thread I can give you some info on Denafrips.


----------



## sns109

sns109 said:


> Being a new member, I believe I've discovered how to post new thread. Press on forums at top of page, press on dedicated source components forum, you'll see blue button for posting new threads. If you start new 005 thread I can give you some info on Denafrips.


And no, you don't have to state intent or administrate thread, they have their own administrators.


----------



## JecklinStax

Did it!


----------



## JecklinStax

JecklinStax said:


> Did it!





JecklinStax said:


> Did it!


Titled: 
Four years after the L.K.S DA004: the Musetec DA005 DAC


----------



## sns109

JecklinStax said:


> Titled:
> Four years after the L.K.S DA004: the Musetec DA005 DAC


Jacklin, now give your initial impressions of dac, don't need full review. I'll then post a new full review.


----------



## fmzip (Jan 26, 2021)

MartinWT said:


> Exactly my findings almost a year ago.  Unbuffered XLR output is poor due to insufficient drive.  I found a used Burson AB-160XLR which is outstanding and solved all my problems.  It's between the DAC and power amp, with the LKS used for volume control.  Bass extension and power in my modded LKS is truly superb.



Can you guys share some choices for XLR buffers since Burson doesn't make them any longer? I saw this one, accpetable?

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/prea...r-xlr-rca-2x-aop-lm4562-2x-lm317-p-13184.html

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Balanced-p...019411?hash=item3daf1e8a93:g:YucAAOSwUQBeBHzl


----------



## ST Chan

Hi, I’m new to the party. Just got the 004. I’m not one who will mod the unit - will use it as it is. I find that the coax input seems to give a better sound than the USB input even though I bought the upgraded USB version. I would have thought the USB input would sound better. My input device is an Auralic Aries Mini. I don’t have golden ears (probably not even silver or bronze), so I’m not really sure. Can someone confirm my experience?


----------



## MartinWT

fmzip said:


> Can you guys share some choices for XLR buffers since Burson doesn't make them any longer? I saw this one, accpetable?


The Audiophonics looks decent for the money. Not sure about the other one.


----------



## fmzip

MartinWT said:


> The Audiophonics looks decent for the money. Not sure about the other one.


I ordered it. Can have some fun with op-amp rolling too. Haven't done that in awhile


----------



## fmzip

Question for all you guys upsampling to DSD512.....

I had a SGC Sonictransporter I5 that cannot handle upsampling a 44K files to DSD512 in Roon so I purchased an Intel NUC8i7BEH. This NUC is one that Roon recommends and I believe it's faster than whatever is in the Nucleus+.

Unfortunately, this NUC stutters on some 44K tracks, processing speed in ROON is at 1.5-2.3x when it happens. I have no filters and Parellize Modulator enabled. Can you guys share exactly what you are using for hardware, mobo, processors, windows linux etc that you have found that works to upsample at a minimum 44k to DSD512 please?


----------



## b0bb (Jan 29, 2021)

fmzip said:


> Question for all you guys upsampling to DSD512.....
> 
> I had a SGC Sonictransporter I5 that cannot handle upsampling a 44K files to DSD512 in Roon so I purchased an Intel NUC8i7BEH. This NUC is one that Roon recommends and I believe it's faster than whatever is in the Nucleus+.
> 
> Unfortunately, this NUC stutters on some 44K tracks, processing speed in ROON is at 1.5-2.3x when it happens. I have no filters and Parellize Modulator enabled. Can you guys share exactly what you are using for hardware, mobo, processors, windows linux etc that you have found that works to upsample at a minimum 44k to DSD512 please?


NUC8i7BEH is a quadcore running at a sustained 2.7GHz, DSD512 is  little too much load given the NUC's cooling capability.
Try the highest performance profile setting in BIOS  if you can tolerate the noise.

If you know how to monitor processor load, post the data.

Slowest processor I have run Roon DSD512 upsampling is on  a Xeon E5-2673v2@3.30GHz, that is a 8core Watercooled CPU


----------



## b0bb (Jan 30, 2021)

ST Chan said:


> Hi, I’m new to the party. Just got the 004. I’m not one who will mod the unit - will use it as it is. I find that the coax input seems to give a better sound than the USB input even though I bought the upgraded USB version. I would have thought the USB input would sound better. My input device is an Auralic Aries Mini. I don’t have golden ears (probably not even silver or bronze), so I’m not really sure. Can someone confirm my experience?


I think you will get better responses to your question if you describe the differences between Coax/SPDIF and USB, for example is sound quality over USB is too bright, and the high notes too jarring?

There are several versions of the enhanced USB interface, some of them better than others.
Post a picture of your DAC internals and I might be able to tell you which one you are running.


----------



## b0bb (Jan 29, 2021)

Here is one way to increase the microdetail and soundstage of the 004.

The 2 pale green resistors with 1904 written on them are 5ohm Vishay VSMP Z-Foil
- Non inductive
- Non capacitive

Makes the near perfect candidate for the coupling resistors connecting the XO to the pair of 9038PROs


----------



## oldearwax

b0bb said:


> Here is one way to increase the microdetail and soundstage of the 004.
> 
> The 2 pale green resistors with 1904 written on them are 5ohm Vishay VSMP Z-Foil
> - Non inductive
> - Non capacitive


b0bb
5 Ohm !  Are they source termination resistors for XO ? Or they are for splitting the clock ? 
TIA


----------



## b0bb (Jan 31, 2021)

oldearwax said:


> b0bb
> 5 Ohm !  Are they source termination resistors for XO ? Or they are for splitting the clock ?
> TIA


It splits the clock, original was 3.3ohm MELF which was inductive @100Mhz.
LKS was probably relying on this to increase the overall impedance.

Increasing the value gives better compatabiity with the SIT-5357 with has an oddball 19ohm output impedance
The VSMP is purely resistive so its value has to be increased.

Other XOs are typically 50ohm


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> It splits the clock, original was 3.3ohm MELF which was inductive @100Mhz.
> LKS was probably relying on this to increase the overall impedance.
> 
> Increasing the value gives better compatabiity with the SIT-5357 with has an oddball 19ohm output impedance
> ...


Ok, what about the MELF's in the discret op amp's .


----------



## ST Chan

b0bb said:


> I think you will get better responses to your question if you describe the differences between Coax/SPDIF and USB, for example is sound quality over USB is too bright, and the high notes too jarring?
> 
> There are several versions of the enhanced USB interface, some of them better than others.
> Post a picture of your DAC internals and I might be able to tell you which one you are running.


Thanks for your response. I compared them again today. Quite sure I prefer the coax sound. My vocabulary for sounds is quite limited. I would say the coax sound is more dynamic which I prefer. The USB sound is like veiled.


----------



## b0bb (Jan 31, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Ok, what about the MELF's in the discret op amp's .



Are you asking if the other MELFs can be replaced with the Vishay VSMP?


----------



## b0bb (Jan 31, 2021)

ST Chan said:


> Thanks for your response. I compared them again today. Quite sure I prefer the coax sound. My vocabulary for sounds is quite limited. I would say the coax sound is more dynamic which I prefer. The USB sound is like veiled.


That is a symptom of an underperforming power supply on the USB board, the sound is quite veiled even compared to coax.

You might have a USB interface with the really cheap version of the supply which uses 40 year old TL07x opamps, won't know for sure until I see a photo.
The best power supply uses the LT3042 regulator, it is a drop in replacement but it is getting hard to find.

PCM performance on the 004 is nothing special, especially if you are limited to 192k sampling or lower.
In order to get the best possible performance out of the 004, it needs DSD input, for that you will need USB.

The Amanero USB implementation on the 004 is one of the best, performance can exceed  expensive external interfaces like the Singxer SU-6 when properly powered.


----------



## ST Chan

b0bb said:


> That is a symptom of an underperforming power supply on the USB board, the sound is quite veiled even compared to coax.
> 
> You might have a USB interface with the really cheap version of the supply which uses 40 year old TL07x opamps, won't know for sure until I see a photo.
> The best power supply uses the LT3042 regulator, it is a drop in replacement but it is getting hard to find.
> ...


This is a picture of the USB module. Do you see anything wrong with it?


----------



## ST Chan

ST Chan said:


> This is a picture of the USB module. Do you see anything wrong with it?


Somehow the picture is not clear after uploading. It’s an LT1963A.


----------



## b0bb (Jan 31, 2021)

ST Chan said:


> This is a picture of the USB module. Do you see anything wrong with it?


You have one of the low performing variants.
Performance has been traded off to save cost by reducing the number of regulators on the USB board itself.

It is unfortunate that this cost cutting produced a USB interface that performs worse than Coax/SPDIF

A more detailed explanation here
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-16083671

The LT3042 powersupply




The picture below shows the cheap TL072 powersupply on the left and LT3042 on the right





The best 004 USB interface is the one below




If you are interested here are the availability links

Powersupply:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LT3042-pow...969704?hash=item3fe3c04aa8:g:NGcAAOSwFe5X2BkN

Highperformance USB:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HIFI-Italy...814005?hash=item3ff32df135:g:g7gAAOSw6gRa2ENP


----------



## ST Chan

b0bb said:


> You have one of the low performing variants.
> Performance has been traded off to save cost by reducing the number of regulators on the USB board itself.
> 
> It is unfortunate that this cost cutting produced a USB interface that performs worse than Coax/SPDIF
> ...


If I buy


b0bb said:


> You have one of the low performing variants.
> Performance has been traded off to save cost by reducing the number of regulators on the USB board itself.
> 
> It is unfortunate that this cost cutting produced a USB interface that performs worse than Coax/SPDIF
> ...


Thanks for your detailed explanation. At least the not so good performance is not a fig of my imagination. The improved USB interface - are they made by LKS? If I buy one of those, will it simply replace the existing one? Is it screwed on or is there any soldering to be done?


----------



## b0bb (Jan 31, 2021)

ST Chan said:


> If I buy
> 
> Thanks for your detailed explanation. At least the not so good performance is not a fig of my imagination. The improved USB interface - are they made by LKS? If I buy one of those, will it simply replace the existing one? Is it screwed on or is there any soldering to be done?


The interface shown is the USB interface LKS shipped in older 004s and in the 003.

Both boards are from the same Ebay vendor, check to see if they can order the combination for you.
As it stands it is missing connectors connecting the 2 halves and they have to be soldered in.
The combo board should have the necessary connectors, they are common items

You will also need a short 10-conductor ribbon cable to connect the board to your DAC as the newer boards are longer and LKS moved the connector closer to the front.

The distance from the back edge with the USB connector to the 10pin connector is 62mm on the board I shown


----------



## JBP3

b0bb said:


> The NAA must report it can do DSD otherwise you can get kicked back to PCM, this capability information is reported  in the logfile.


I'm back, after a long interlude to figure out what happened. I have discovered that I have the old Amanero firmware. In the process of unearthing the USB board I wonder now if I have the latest and greatest. Here is a photo of the Amanero USB board which looks to me to be current with the 975 Crystek 975 crystals:





Here is the top board:





Please confirm I have the right equipment. I bought this is June of 2019 factory direct from Jinbo Li. It has worked flawlessly, but all I have used to date are red book CD's through Roon.

Thanks, John


----------



## ST Chan

b0bb said:


> The interface shown is the USB interface LKS shipped in older 004s and in the 003.
> 
> Both boards are from the same Ebay vendor, check to see if they can order the combination for you.
> As it stands it is missing connectors connecting the 2 halves and they have to be soldered in.
> ...


Sounds complicated. I think this is beyond my capability. I’ll chat with LKS and see what they can do - wonder whether they will even admit that their USB interface is sub standard. Worst case is I’ll have to live with the coax connection which is tolerable for me. Thanks for your help. Really appreciate your time and effort.


----------



## b0bb

JBP3 said:


> Please confirm I have the right equipment. I bought this is June of 2019 factory direct from Jinbo Li. It has worked flawlessly, but all I have used to date are red book CD's through Roon.


The firmware needs to be upgraded
@Whitigir posted the instructions earlier in this thread.


----------



## b0bb

ST Chan said:


> Sounds complicated. I think this is beyond my capability. I’ll chat with LKS and see what they can do - wonder whether they will even admit that their USB interface is sub standard. Worst case is I’ll have to live with the coax connection which is tolerable for me. Thanks for your help. Really appreciate your time and effort.


The first iteration of the powersupply and USB interface is still the best, introduced 6 years ago and still available for sale.
LKS subsequent followups have all but disappeared, mention that if you speak to LKS


----------



## fmzip (Feb 1, 2021)

b0bb said:


> NUC8i7BEH is a quadcore running at a sustained 2.7GHz, DSD512 is  little too much load given the NUC's cooling capability.
> Try the highest performance profile setting in BIOS  if you can tolerate the noise.
> 
> If you know how to monitor processor load, post the data.
> ...




Thoughts....

I just tried my Dell XPS 15 laptop ( i7-6700HQ 2.6 GHZ 8mb) as the core to make certain it wasn’t my DAC or Ultra Rendu posing the problem.

Upsampling 44k to DSD512 was flawless. Any thoughts as to maybe why? Processing speed on the Dell was 1.3x, the NUC 2.3x


----------



## b0bb (Feb 1, 2021)

fmzip said:


> Thoughts....
> 
> I just tried my Dell XPS 15 laptop ( i7-6700HQ 2.6 GHZ 8mb) as the core to make certain it wasn’t my DAC or Ultra Rendu posing the problem.
> 
> Upsampling 44k to DSD512 was flawless. Any thoughts as to maybe why? Processing speed on the Dell was 1.3x, the NUC 2.3x


XPS = XtremePerformanceSystem

This is Dell's desktop computer replacement product.
This pretty much says you need to have a desktop class processor to do a decent job of DSD512 upsampling.

The NUC is a laptop without an attached screen or keyboard.

2.3x report on the NUC is misleading as the CPU throttles down as soon as the thermal envelope is exceeded
and only starts up after the temps come down.

NUC's limit is 20W, a desktop class processsor limit is 45W - 90W


----------



## ST Chan

b0bb said:


> The first iteration of the powersupply and USB interface is still the best, introduced 6 years ago and still available for sale.
> LKS subsequent followups have all but disappeared, mention that if you speak to LKS


I have chatted with LKS. As expected, they claimed that their newest USB module is the best. But my ears tell a different story. Never mind, I will consider it a write off. Will something like a Singxer SU-1 give a better sound than coax?


----------



## b0bb

ST Chan said:


> I have chatted with LKS. As expected, they claimed that their newest USB module is the best. But my ears tell a different story. Never mind, I will consider it a write off. Will something like a Singxer SU-1 give a better sound than coax?


SU1 will address the immediate muddyness issue you are experiencing

SU1 does carry some baggage, the I2S presentation may come across as overly bright.
It depends on how clean the USB source is.
If you are experiencing this,  an additional dongle to clean up the USB RF noise will be needed.
I use the Wyred4Sound recovery
https://wyred4sound.com/products/digital-converters/recovery

iFi and Intona also make similar units but are more expensive


----------



## b0bb (Feb 2, 2021)

b0bb said:


> The firmware needs to be upgraded
> @Whitigir posted the instructions earlier in this thread.


@JBP3
If you still are running the old firmware, DoP may work.

Settings-->SDM PACK-->DoP

Make the change and check if the logfile reports NAA DSD capability.
As you got your unit in 2019 it is not too old.


----------



## b0bb (Feb 2, 2021)

fmzip said:


> Thoughts....
> 
> I just tried my Dell XPS 15 laptop ( i7-6700HQ 2.6 GHZ 8mb) as the core to make certain it wasn’t my DAC or Ultra Rendu posing the problem.
> 
> Upsampling 44k to DSD512 was flawless. Any thoughts as to maybe why? Processing speed on the Dell was 1.3x, the NUC 2.3x


Consider using the Dell as the DSP upsampling box and the NUC as the audio endpoint (NAA)


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> Consider using the Dell as the DSP upsampling box and the NUC as the audio endpoint (NAA)


The Dell is my daily user so I am thinking of building a box and tossing it on the network. I'd like to try HQ player but I am a bit lost as to what goes in al the boxes. If I could figure it out and it sounds better than Roon's upsampling, I'd likely do exactly as you're suggesting.

SGC says my i5 Sonictransporter can handle upsampling to DSD128 with not the most intense filters. Could anyone provide me with a starting point to proper selections in the HQplayer interface please? The interface is a bit daunting.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> Cool.
> You found and removed a bottleneck in your speaker crossovers.
> 
> Mills MRA series are quite optimistic in their power handling specs.
> ...


Hi! Haven't tried these but i see they are expensive. I would like to try in future


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> The Dell is my daily user so I am thinking of building a box and tossing it on the network. I'd like to try HQ player but I am a bit lost as to what goes in al the boxes. If I could figure it out and it sounds better than Roon's upsampling, I'd likely do exactly as you're suggesting.
> 
> SGC says my i5 Sonictransporter can handle upsampling to DSD128 with not the most intense filters. Could anyone provide me with a starting point to proper selections in the HQplayer interface please? The interface is a bit daunting.



HQplayer on Sonictransporter: Start with DSD5 modulator and poly-sinc-ext2 filter.
NAA: Set NUC Bios to boot from USB and burn premade boot image to usb stick, no further config .

Quick start:
https://www.signalyst.com/quickstart.html for desktop version
Talk to SGC if you are using the embedded version


----------



## b0bb

A while back @Xoverman and others asked if there was a schematic for the I/V and analog section
Link below is the reference implementation from ESS, LKS pretty much follows this on the 004.

This comes and goes on ESS's website so grab it while it is there.
http://www.esstech.com/files/5114/4095/4310/Sabre_8_2Channel_64PIN_V3_SCH.pdf


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> HQplayer on Sonictransporter: Start with DSD5 modulator and poly-sinc-ext2 filter.
> NAA: Set NUC Bios to boot from USB and burn premade boot image to usb stick, no further config .
> 
> Quick start:
> ...



Bobb, thanks again. Jussi suggested to use this as a starting point with the i5 but he said nothing in regards to the DAC. Are there any specific LKS needed settings in this interface that are required? Does it look to appear like this is a starting point that will work?


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Bobb, thanks again. Jussi suggested to use this as a starting point with the i5 but he said nothing in regards to the DAC. Are there any specific LKS needed settings in this interface that are required? Does it look to appear like this is a starting point that will work?


Give it a try, if your i5 runs out of steam, back the modulator down to DSD5


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> Give it a try, if your i5 runs out of steam, back the modulator down to DSD5


Thanks Bobb, this outputted 44K to 384K, did I do something incorrectly? I am looking to see what DSD128 sounds like and compare it to Roon's own DSD128 upsampling to see what sounds better


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Thanks Bobb, this outputted 44K to 384K, did I do something incorrectly? I am looking to see what DSD128 sounds like and compare it to Roon's own DSD128 upsampling to see what sounds better


Set output mode box to SDM


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> Set output mode box to SDM


Thanks Bobb! I am extremely grateful for all your contributions to this forum. You are an extremely talented individual.


----------



## JBP3

b0bb said:


> @JBP3
> If you still are running the old firmware, DoP may work.
> 
> Settings-->SDM PACK-->DoP
> ...



bObb, thanks for the input! When I first tried to convert 44.1k PCM to 256 DSD and an EC modulator on the new Mac min M1, I did not realize that the end point executed a handshake with the DAC to determine the DAC's capability, and that the NAA log file recorded this. So I moved on to roon where I know my way around a little bit better. I tried three DSD file resolutions, files I had downloaded from a DSD site for experimentation. Using the roon signal path display, I sent a 64 DSD file and saw that it was played 64 DSD Direct, I sent a 128 DSD file and it was played 128 DSD DoP, and I sent a 256 DSD file and it was downsampled to 128 DSD by roon and then played DoP. The final resolution is also displayed on the DAC. So based on my experiments my current Amanero firmware plays 64 DSD Direct and 128 DSD as DoP. So, you are correct, I believe I could ask HQPlayer to upsample to 128 as long as I select SDMPack / DoP. 

But, now my DAC is disassembled so that I can update the Amanero firmware. Plus, I really want the 256 capability since I paid for it and I understand that it is just plain better. The only remaining hurdle is that I have no readily available Windows machine being an all Mac guy, except for the NUC7PJYH in my DIY streamer. So I have Windows 10 on order, it will arrive shortly, and I will install it on the NUC and update the Amanero firmware using the excellent go-by provided here. 

By the way, I still haven't figured out how to read the NAA log file, but from what I see it only documented PCM data rates, maybe because I didn't have DoP selected.

Thanks again, John


----------



## ST Chan

b0bb said:


> SU1 will address the immediate muddyness issue you are experiencing
> 
> SU1 does carry some baggage, the I2S presentation may come across as overly bright.
> It depends on how clean the USB source is.
> ...



I did some further research on SU-1 and discovered that a group of enthusiasts have already moved on to the Gustard U16 and said that it is better. There is a thread for that. After reading a few pages, I skipped to the last page. There someone mentioned that they are already ex-U16 and have moved on to the AudioGD DI-20. There is another thread on that and everyone is saying it is so much better than the U16.

Wow! This is a bottomless pit. I think I’ll stick to my coax.


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Thanks Bobb! I am extremely grateful for all your contributions to this forum. You are an extremely talented individual.


You are welcome.


----------



## b0bb

JBP3 said:


> bObb, thanks for the input! When I first tried to convert 44.1k PCM to 256 DSD and an EC modulator on the new Mac min M1, I did not realize that the end point executed a handshake with the DAC to determine the DAC's capability, and that the NAA log file recorded this. So I moved on to roon where I know my way around a little bit better. I tried three DSD file resolutions, files I had downloaded from a DSD site for experimentation. Using the roon signal path display, I sent a 64 DSD file and saw that it was played 64 DSD Direct, I sent a 128 DSD file and it was played 128 DSD DoP, and I sent a 256 DSD file and it was downsampled to 128 DSD by roon and then played DoP. The final resolution is also displayed on the DAC. So based on my experiments my current Amanero firmware plays 64 DSD Direct and 128 DSD as DoP. So, you are correct, I believe I could ask HQPlayer to upsample to 128 as long as I select SDMPack / DoP.
> 
> But, now my DAC is disassembled so that I can update the Amanero firmware. Plus, I really want the 256 capability since I paid for it and I understand that it is just plain better. The only remaining hurdle is that I have no readily available Windows machine being an all Mac guy, except for the NUC7PJYH in my DIY streamer. So I have Windows 10 on order, it will arrive shortly, and I will install it on the NUC and update the Amanero firmware using the excellent go-by provided here.
> 
> ...


Use firmware_2006be11 and CPLD_1081_SWAPPEDSD for the 004


----------



## b0bb (Feb 4, 2021)

ST Chan said:


> I did some further research on SU-1 and discovered that a group of enthusiasts have already moved on to the Gustard U16 and said that it is better. There is a thread for that. After reading a few pages, I skipped to the last page. There someone mentioned that they are already ex-U16 and have moved on to the AudioGD DI-20. There is another thread on that and everyone is saying it is so much better than the U16.
> 
> Wow! This is a bottomless pit. I think I’ll stick to my coax.


The Singxer DDCs are the only non LKS devices known to work without major issues with the 004

The other options are not relevant for the 004 for example the DI-20 lacks certain hardware signals needed by the 004.


----------



## moss

b0bb said:


> The Singxer DDCs are the only non LKS devices known to work without major issues with the 004
> 
> The other options are not relevant for the 004 for example the DI-20 lacks certain hardware signals needed by the 004.


I was using an 004 until I received my 005.  I am using an Empirical Audio Off Ramp 5 to good effect.  I find the BNC and HDMI I2s both work very well.  I did need a custom HDMI cable made to work with the LKS pin pattern.


----------



## b0bb (Feb 5, 2021)

moss said:


> I did need a custom HDMI cable made to work with the LKS pin pattern.


The configurable HDMI output pin pattern is one of the main features of Singxers.
Simple hardware dip switch, none of the software setup other boxes require
It handles both PCM and Native DSD.

DSD is where the 004 really shines, with PCM there is always the last stage PCM --> DSD conversion DSP inside the 9038 to contend with.
External DSPs like HQplayer do a far better PCM -->DSD conversion  if the appropriate resources are available.
I feed my 004 with fixed DSD512 to bypass as much of the internal DSP conversions as possible.


----------



## ST Chan

b0bb said:


> The Singxer DDCs are the only non LKS devices known to work without major issues with the 004
> 
> The other options are not relevant for the 004 for example the DI-20 lacks certain hardware signals needed by the 004.



Thanks, b0bb, you have been very helpful.

On another matter, I came across something in a Chinese forum where some one said the RCA output sounds better than the XLR output because the 004 design is such that:

DAC - i/v - lpf - RCA
DAC - i/v - XLR 

The RCA output goes thru another lpf stage, whatever it is. Would like to hear your opinion.


----------



## fmzip (Feb 5, 2021)

b0bb said:


> The Singxer DDCs are the only non LKS devices known to work without major issues with the 004
> 
> The other options are not relevant for the 004 for example the DI-20 lacks certain hardware signals needed by the 004.



To also note, I've been using a Sonore UltraDigital i2s out to my LKS without any issue. 

Curious if this one below would work as you can configure the i2s pinout via firmware as someone pointed out in another thread. 

b00b, do the internals looks to have any benefit over the UD or the Singxer products in your opinion? :

DDC ??


----------



## b0bb (Feb 5, 2021)

fmzip said:


> To also note, I've been using a Sonore UltraDigital i2s out to my LKS without any issue.


One of the signature hardware features of the SU-1 is the twin ISO7641 digital isolators and 7 optocouplers across a clearly separated barrier





The other major distinguishing feature is the configuration DIP switches




The Ultradigital is an OEM customized version of the SU1
The 2 signature SU1 features are clearly visible





> Curious if this one below would work as you can configure the i2s pinout via firmware as someone pointed out in another thread.
> 
> b00b, do the internals looks to have any benefit over the UD or the Singxer products in your opinion? :
> 
> DDC ??



That is the Xing AF200.
The Singxer SU-2 is an improved version with the same usb microcontroller likely sourced from Xing.
The extra cost of the SU2 buys you
- Galvanic Isolation
- Hardware dip switch config
- XMOS USB interface emulation, no messing around in Windows , Linux and Mac work without drivers unlike the AF200

I have a more extensive writeup and photos on the SU6 thread.

Singxer USB to I2S DDCs are go-to choice for the 004 if you are looking for troublefree I2S operation for all supported modes (PCM, DoP and Native DSD)


----------



## b0bb (Feb 6, 2021)

ST Chan said:


> Thanks, b0bb, you have been very helpful.
> 
> On another matter, I came across something in a Chinese forum where some one said the RCA output sounds better than the XLR output because the 004 design is such that:
> 
> ...


There are separate low pass filters for the RCA and XLR on the ESS reference design.
LKS modified this to use a common passive low pass filter (LPF) block for both XLR and RCA

The RCA output has active amplification to combine the diffrential LPF signal to a single ended output for RCA.
XLR is just the passive LPF output.

Active amplification can mask the effect of poor quality cables or equipment with poorly behaved input impedance
With low capacitance cables and a sensible input impedance of the downstream component, I find little difference between XLR and RCA.
This is from my Stax SRM-007tII, 50k on RCA, 50k x2 on XLR
100pF 4ft Mogami XLR interconnects.

The XLR output being passive will reveal the effect of poor quality cables sooner through effects like a drop in the output at high frequencies

The threshold is a cable capacitance of 400pF and next stage load impedance no less than 10k.
This was determined through experimentation, if driving loads outside of this range, use a proper preamplifier.

LKS used a minor variation of the reference design from ESS
LKS used a discrete opamp in place of the AD797


----------



## Xoverman (Feb 6, 2021)

b0bb said:


> There are separate low pass filters for the RCA and XLR
> 
> The RCA output has active amplification doing the low pass function.
> XLR is just passive low pass filter (LPF).
> ...


Some day I'll have to sit down and make a schematic of the discrete opamp.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> This is a rebuild of the digital power section to increase the current supply to the DAC
> 
> All the stock 1.5A regulators were replaced with 3A capable units with transient and noise handling equal to or better than the stock LT1963A
> 
> ...


Digital section capacitor upgrade review 
I the last 2 weeks I had some time to evaluat b0bb's capacitor upgrade in the digital section of the DAC. 
The capacitors are easy to get and removing the old one's and replacing them with the new cap's is an easy job. 
Sonically things become a little bit more relaxed, a little bit more natural. For me l was a easy to do upgrade,  minor upgrade.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Coming back to the hardware mods....
> 
> I am experimenting with reducing the leakage of the cap bypassing the Vcom reference chain.
> 
> ...


Upgrade wet tantalum capacitor , leakage 1uA , 150uF review. 
Also a very easy to do upgrade. The factory part in my 004 was a 10uF - 500V electrolytic capacitor.
Now this tiny upgrade brings the DAC to a hole nother level. This is a very impressive upgrade. 
Soundstage depths get's deeper again and in my setup also about 20% wider. Instruments become more focused.
Listening is so relaxed because it sounds so realistic and real. Reverb of instruments seems to go on for ever.
I did this mod first for a friend of mine together with the digital cap upgrade. Next day he called me up and told me, he didn't sleep that night because he coldnt stop listening to his music. He was so happy, he was almost crying. 
To find out witch one of the mod's was responsible for this great markup of the DAC I did them separate on my DAC. 
This is an upgrade everyone has to do. Thank you B0bb !!!


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> There are separate low pass filters for the RCA and XLR
> 
> The RCA output has active amplification doing the low pass function.
> XLR is just passive low pass filter (LPF).
> ...



Thank you b0bb. 
Could you tell me please what are the values of the C7 - C9 capacitors (and where to find them) in our DACs? 
I'd like to replace the important capacitors only for the XLR outputs.


----------



## piaseczek

Xoverman said:


> Upgrade wet tantalum capacitor , leakage 1uA , 150uF review.
> 
> To find out witch one of the mod's was responsible for this great markup of the DAC I did them separate on my DAC.
> This is an upgrade everyone has to do. Thank you B0bb !!!



Thank you for sharing


----------



## b0bb (Feb 6, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> Thank you b0bb.
> Could you tell me please what are the values of the C7 - C9 capacitors (and where to find them) in our DACs?
> I'd like to replace the important capacitors only for the XLR outputs.


Compared to the posted reference design, LKS moved nearly all of the filter components to the passive LPF section.
U2's role on the 004 is to combine the differential output of the LPF into a single ended signal for RCA output.

All the capacitors are used for both XLR and RCA output


----------



## b0bb (Feb 6, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Upgrade wet tantalum capacitor , leakage 1uA , 150uF review.
> Also a very easy to do upgrade. The factory part in my 004 was a 10uF - 500V electrolytic capacitor.
> Now this tiny upgrade brings the DAC to a hole nother level. This is a very impressive upgrade.
> Soundstage depths get's deeper again and in my setup also about 20% wider. Instruments become more focused.
> ...



You are welcome.
As a reminder to those interested in going down this route.

Please avoid buying from surplus sources or Ebay, get them instead from known suppliers like Mouser, Digikey, Farnell, Arrow etc.
The integrity of the seals on these caps are very important, skin contact with the electrolyte must be avoided.

I have seen caps dating back to the 1980s being offered for sale.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Digital section capacitor upgrade review
> I the last 2 weeks I had some time to evaluat b0bb's capacitor upgrade in the digital section of the DAC.
> The capacitors are easy to get and removing the old one's and replacing them with the new cap's is an easy job.
> Sonically things become a little bit more relaxed, a little bit more natural. For me l was a easy to do upgrade,  minor upgrade.



Which caps did you replace, input  (CDE 380LX) , output (Nichicon UBY) or both?
Are you still using the stock LM317s?

Can you post photos of the work.


----------



## oldearwax

b0bb said:


> You are welcome.
> As a reminder to those interested in going down this route.
> 
> Please avoid buying from surplus sources or Ebay, get them instead from known suppliers like Mouser, Digikey, Farnell, Arrow etc.
> ...



Stock mh-da004 tends to be cold/bright.
I copycat B0bb's wet tantalum capacitor 150uF upgrade.
Got the wet tantalum from 
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Tansitor/109D157X9010C2/?qs=GDo1UeZ%2BmvIxv47/FOPtLA==
The original cap is a 12uF noname "black" cap.

This mod totally removes the edginess of mh-da004, it puts/shifts  emphasis to
the more pleasing mid range and bass, but it also surrenders a tiny bit of top end.
It sounds more relax and as Xoverman said one can listen to it for a long period of time.

Thank you B0bb !


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> The Singxer SU-2 is an improved version with the same usb microcontroller likely sourced from Xing.
> The extra cost of the SU2 buys you
> - Galvanic Isolation
> - Hardware dip switch config
> ...



Thanks for the clarification. I just picked up a preowned one of these for a good price:

https://www.kitsunehifi.com/product/ktesu2/

Looking forward to trying it out. Do you think any of the mods to the SU6 would also pertain to this Kitsune SU-2 or is it a completely different animal?


----------



## b0bb (Feb 12, 2021)

fmzip said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I just picked up a preowned one of these for a good price:
> 
> https://www.kitsunehifi.com/product/ktesu2/
> 
> Looking forward to trying it out. Do you think any of the mods to the SU6 would also pertain to this Kitsune SU-2 or is it a completely different animal?


On the SU6, there was a combination of 4 and 2 channel isolators.
The 2 channel isolators could theoretically be used on the SU2. I have not started any mods of the SU2.

Singxer cut a few corners on the SU2, they used a mixture of devices from Silicon Labs and Novosense  for the isolators.
Taobao sells the Novosense for about 50 US cents, neither Mouser or Digikey stock them. SiLabs are $1.90 a piece and NVE $7.00 a piece.

Not sure how far Kitsune went with the decoupling caps, that is another area for improvement.
I assume your unit has the voltage regulator mods.

Singxer uses Crystek on the high-end units, I would likely switch out the Accusilicon for Crystek.


----------



## fmzip (Feb 12, 2021)

b0bb said:


> On the SU6, there was a combination of 4 and 2 channel isolators.
> The 2 channel isolators could theoretically be used on the SU2. I have not started any mods of the SU2.
> 
> Singxer cut a few corners on the SU2, they used a mixture of devices from Silicon Labs and Novosense  for the isolators.
> ...



Thanks for the info. Interesting you mentioned the crystal....

Are they using the Crystek CCHD-957-25-49.152 / 49.1584  in place of the Accusilicon AS318B-49.152 / 49.1584?

I actually swapped the Accusilicon AS318B crystal out of the LKS DAC today to try the Crystek 957X that you had recommended. I prefer the Crystek with my 2 channel setup my a very wide margin.

If anyone wants to try the Accusilicon in their DAC, message me.

P.S. The Apple M1 was a great suggestion. Works perfect with HQplayer and Roon. Upsampling to DSD512 is awesome to say the least!


----------



## b0bb (Feb 13, 2021)

fmzip said:


> Thanks for the info. Interesting you mentioned the crystal....
> 
> Are they using the Crystek CCHD-957-25-49.152 / 49.1584  in place of the Accusilicon AS318B-49.152 / 49.1584?


Yes on the SU6 and the SDA6 Pro
The one below is the XOs in the SU6






> I actually swapped the Accusilicon AS318B crystal out of the LKS DAC today to try the Crystek 957X that you had recommended. I prefer the Crystek with my 2 channel setup my a very wide margin.
> 
> If anyone wants to try the Accusilicon in their DAC, message me.
> 
> P.S. The Apple M1 was a great suggestion. Works perfect with HQplayer and Roon. Upsampling to DSD512 is awesome to say the least!



The CCHD950X has a  very large quartz crystal, this is something not obvious until you open it up and is the key to its performance.

The 004 has the highest full scale current output from the DAC in the LKS range, this greatly helps DSD512 performance.
As the sampling rates go up the amount of energy available for output per bit decreases.
The energy is supplied by the electric charge coming from the DAC.
Charge transferred per unit time is the electric current.

004 runs between 2-5x the output current of most competing 9038Pro DACs, this is partly the reason why DSD512  is such a clear improvement over DSD256.

On my modded DAC DSD512 has the clear lead in dynamics, soundstage width, imaging and percussive and bass slam.
Complete absence of grain and edginess means too many hours lost to music listening.
DSD256  sounds wooden and flat in comparison even with the aid of the the topend ASDM7EC DSD modulator from HQplayer.

Gustard finally realized this and I expect to see high current output 9038 Pro DACs in the near future.
The indicator is the large heatsinks, the ones on the upcoming Gustard X26 Pro are absolutely huge.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Which caps did you replace, input  (CDE 380LX) , output (Nichicon UBY) or both?
> Are you still using the stock LM317s?
> 
> Can you post photos of the work.


I only exchanged the primary capacitors ( before the regulator's )


----------



## Xoverman

oldearwax said:


> Stock mh-da004 tends to be cold/bright.
> I copycat B0bb's wet tantalum capacitor 150uF upgrade.
> Got the wet tantalum from
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Tansitor/109D157X9010C2/?qs=GDo1UeZ%2BmvIxv47/FOPtLA==
> ...


those were my reference capacitors 



,


----------



## Xoverman

My neu SPX17 +5V regulator's just arrived from the US


----------



## oldearwax

Xoverman said:


> those were my reference capacitors
> 
> ,


It is 10uF 500V !!        
I thought it was a typo in your earlier post. But  sure  it is 500V !!!
We are replacing a 10uF 500V capacitor with a 150uF 10V. Kind of insane.
I don't *think* there are any high voltage inside this DAC.
My DAC is a little warmer after the mod.


----------



## b0bb (Feb 13, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> My neu SPX17 +5V regulator's just arrived from the US


The CDE caps have a dissipation factor (DF) below 10%, this numbers tracks loss inside the capacitor, mostly self heating.
Nichicon labels their DF as tan δ, this is between 30-35%, in practice the caps run much hotter, reducing life.
The other benefit is the ripple current of the CDE caps is 2-4X better.

This will start making itself felt once the regulator bottleneck is removed.
The SPX17 is a much faster acting regulator with 3X the peak current demand, the high DF of the Nichicon LKG becomes a barrier if not removed, limiting audible  performance


----------



## b0bb (Feb 13, 2021)

oldearwax said:


> It is 10uF 500V !!
> I thought it was a typo in your earlier post. But  sure  it is 500V !!!
> We are replacing a 10uF 500V capacitor with a 150uF 10V. Kind of insane.
> I don't *think* there are any high voltage inside this DAC.
> My DAC is a little warmer after the mod.



Measure the voltage across the cap and see.
Take all reasonable steps to reduce speculation when modifying your DAC.

Your stock cap must be quite leaky, the datasheet provides a means to estimate the leakage.
It comes to about 112uA, the replacement reduces leakage to 1uA
https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/190477/EPCOS/B43698.html

The cap bypasses the lower leg of a resistive divider which sets the common mode reference voltage, Vcom

The change in leakage current alters Vcom, this changes quiescent the operating point of the I/V.
In this instance this raised the quiescent current, in turn, raising the temperature

If you want to address this:
Disconnect all equipment from the DAC.
Check the DC offset voltage between the +ve xlr terminal and turn the trimmer of the corresponding opamp until the difference is below 5mV
Repeat for the -ve xlr terminal, repeat for the other channel.
Double check the DC offset on the RCA outputs and adjust the associated trimmer of its opamp if required.

The opamps are straight thru meaning left most opamp connects to leftmost xlr pin


----------



## oldearwax

b0bb said:


> ...
> If you want to address this:
> Disconnect all equipment from the DAC.
> Check the DC offset voltage between the +ve xlr terminal and turn the trimmer of the corresponding opamp until the difference is below 5mV
> ...



Thank you so much. I may give it a try.  My amp does not have any DC blocking capacitors,
if the RCA output has any DC offset, my amp definitely will scream !!

Looking at the analog section, I saw six discrete op amps and some trimmers.
Can you please look at the attachment to see if my guess is correct ?  TIA.


----------



## b0bb

oldearwax said:


> Thank you so much. I may give it a try.  My amp does not have any DC blocking capacitors,
> if the RCA output has any DC offset, my amp definitely will scream !!
> 
> Looking at the analog section, I saw six discrete op amps and some trimmers.
> Can you please look at the attachment to see if my guess is correct ?  TIA.


The RCA output is generated by combining the differential XLR  outputs
Adjust the 4 trimmers for the XLR output.
Check and if necessary adjust the offset for the RCA output.


----------



## oldearwax (Feb 14, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Check the DC offset voltage between the +ve xlr terminal and turn the trimmer of the corresponding opamp until the difference is below 5mV
> Repeat for the -ve xlr terminal, repeat for the other channel.
> Double check the DC offset on the RCA outputs and adjust the associated trimmer of its opamp if required.
> 
> The opamps are straight thru meaning left most opamp connects to leftmost xlr pin



Thank you b0bb !!
I read your instructions carefully,  but I lack understanding of  balanced output offset voltage adjustment.

Is the idea to ~zero the voltage of each xlr terminal  wrt  ground
(of each channel)  with the corresponding trimpot ?

So I drew up a block diagram to summarize what I learn/know so far (errors in the diagram are all mine).

LKS-004 has two ES9038.
Each ES9038 has four outputs (L, R, LB, RB), how are they connected to the op amp ?


----------



## b0bb

oldearwax said:


> Is the idea to ~zero the voltage of each xlr terminal  wrt  ground
> (of each channel)  with the corresponding trimpot ?


Yes


> Each ES9038 has four outputs (L, R, LB, RB), how are they connected to the op amp ?


One chip for each channel,  each 9038Pro runs in mono mode (L + R, LB + RB)


----------



## MartinWT (Feb 14, 2021)

It's finally done - I decided to spend my Sunday afternoon wisely.

Below, you can see the four original 0.5W I/V resistors (much smaller ones mounted under the PCB) have been replaced by Vishay CPF3 61.9Ω 3W resistors mounted on top next to the capacitors. There is little room underneath with the heat spreader bar so I thought they would be better mounted on top.

Secondly, the two large electrolytic Vcom capacitors have been replaced by two low leakage 100uF 10V tantalums.






I've only just reassembled it all and got it hooked up to the system, so it's early days and the new components will need some burning in. However, right from the off I can tell that this is going to be the final icing on the cake. There is no overall change in balance or presentation, or even detail, but there is a clarification of the image, a reduction in slight blurring when the mix gets busy, and further tightening of the bass (the effect of the Vcom caps). There is also the removal of the tiniest 'sheen' to the proceedings, giving further insight into how strings are plucked, enunciation of vocals etc. It's a small thing, noticeable on some vocals but not others.

I really like this DAC, it suits my preference for how music should be portrayed. I find myself listening more these days, rather than less, indicating that the essentials are all in place. My thanks go to @b0bb and @Xoverman .


----------



## wersuss (Feb 15, 2021)

oldearwax said:


> Stock mh-da004 tends to be cold/bright.
> I copycat B0bb's wet tantalum capacitor 150uF upgrade.
> Got the wet tantalum from
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Tansitor/109D157X9010C2/?qs=GDo1UeZ%2BmvIxv47/FOPtLA==
> ...


Would these work? https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-SPRAGUE-109D-Wet-Slug-Tantalum-Capacitors-150uF-30V/284021664990?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
*109D Wet Slug Tantalum Capacitors 150uF/ 30V*


----------



## oldearwax

wersuss said:


> Would these work? https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-SPRAGUE-109D-Wet-Slug-Tantalum-Capacitors-150uF-30V/284021664990?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
> *109D Wet Slug Tantalum Capacitors 150uF/ 30V*


See Post #3,271, b0bb's advice.
Wet tantalum may dry up after some years, I guess.


----------



## fmzip (Feb 16, 2021)

Delete...


----------



## b0bb

oldearwax said:


> See Post #3,271, b0bb's advice.
> Wet tantalum may dry up after some years, I guess.


The cap is quite old the rubber seal integrity is suspect, must avoid the electrolyte seeping out as the cap warms, it is highly corrosive.


----------



## fmzip

MartinWT said:


> It's finally done - I decided to spend my Sunday afternoon wisely.
> 
> Below, you can see the four original 0.5W I/V resistors (much smaller ones mounted under the PCB) have been replaced by Vishay CPF3 61.9Ω 3W resistors mounted on top next to the capacitors. There is little room underneath with the heat spreader bar so I thought they would be better mounted on top.
> 
> ...


Nice work. Curious, how warm are those 3W resistors getting? Was wondering why they were put on the bottom side of the board in the first place and not the top


----------



## MartinWT

fmzip said:


> Nice work. Curious, how warm are those 3W resistors getting? Was wondering why they were put on the bottom side of the board in the first place and not the top


Good question - they were small 0.5W resistors placed where they would get hot.  I haven't touched the new ones after a good warm-up, so I can't tell but I do know they will be stable in the air of the main chassis as I cover the top vents by more than half to stop them ringing like chimes.  Dynamics are up so they don't suffer as much from thermal throttling.

@b0bb I meant to ask if the blue parallel I/V caps are worth changing for anything better?


----------



## fmzip

MartinWT said:


> Good question - they were small 0.5W resistors placed where they would get hot.  I haven't touched the new ones after a good warm-up, so I can't tell but I do know they will be stable in the air of the main chassis as I cover the top vents by more than half to stop them ringing like chimes.  Dynamics are up so they don't suffer as much from thermal throttling.
> 
> @b0bb I meant to ask if the blue parallel I/V caps are worth changing for anything better?




Are these the resistors you used? Need to take my unit apart to check the values, is yours version 2 of this DAC?

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/CPF361R900BEE14/?qs=kPTqIjks3ML4M3KHaSCR3A==


----------



## MartinWT

fmzip said:


> Are these the resistors you used? Need to take my unit apart to check the values, is yours version 2 of this DAC?
> 
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/CPF361R900BEE14/?qs=kPTqIjks3ML4M3KHaSCR3A==


Yes, exactly those.

I'm not sure of the version, but the old resistors were close in value (62 point something).


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> @b0bb I meant to ask if the blue parallel I/V caps are worth changing for anything better?



It depends of your preference, for something smoother try a polystyrene cap, if you prefer a brighter and sharper presentation try a Corning CGW Glass Cap.


----------



## oldearwax (Feb 18, 2021)

Per b0bb's suggestion,
I re-adjusted the offset voltage of each op-amp after  the Vcom  109D Wet tantalum cap replacement.
I wrote down the voltage of each terminal before and after the adjustment (see attachment).
Just a few milli Volt makes a big difference in sound.
Strongly recommend this adjustment after the Vcom cap mod.


----------



## tdrood

b0bb said:


> LKS changed to ceramics on the Gen2.
> Ceramics have low ESR but lacks the ripple current capacity.
> Need the current capability to drive the very long trace lengths on the 004, seems like a very odd choice to go to ceramics.
> 
> ...


Ok, so I am collecting parts to do these mods, and I have the DS90LV032A, but it looks like there's an smd cap in there. I haven't pulled the amanero assy back out, so I don't know if there's any provisions for an electrolytic under there. Is this what yours looked like pre-mod? If so, what cap should I select for this location. Sorry for being a pita...


----------



## b0bb

tdrood said:


> Ok, so I am collecting parts to do these mods, and I have the DS90LV032A, but it looks like there's an smd cap in there. I haven't pulled the amanero assy back out, so I don't know if there's any provisions for an electrolytic under there. Is this what yours looked like pre-mod? If so, what cap should I select for this location. Sorry for being a pita...


Your board is different from mine.
A better photo showing the cap looking directly from top down is needed.
The side view obscures any sign of the potential mounting holes for the electrolytic cap.


----------



## fmzip (Feb 19, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Markup of some of the common mods
> 
> Initial set of modifications:
> [1] XO Crystek CCHD950X Qty: 1
> ...



Attached are photos of areas 4&5 on my PCB


The 2200pf, mine is marked 400V I assume 100v is sufficient?

https://www.tme.com/au/en/details/b32529c6222j000/tht-polyester-capacitors/epcos/

Also, instead of .15uf, mine is .1uf. should I stick with this value of .1uf instead of.15?

https://www.yoycart.com/Product/14766214428/


----------



## b0bb (Feb 19, 2021)

fmzip said:


> Attached are photos of areas 4&5 on my PCB
> 
> 
> The 2200pf, mine is marked 400V I assume 100v is sufficient?
> ...


The opamps run ±15V, 100V is more than sufficient.
The replacements I used on the filter section are Vishay film+foil construction polypropylene for the 2n2 caps, 33nFs are metallized polypropylene.
These replace to replace the stock metallized polyester+PET cap.
The stock caps is responsible for much of the transient smearing and overemphasis of the top end.

The 0.15uF are WIMA metallized polyproplene (PP) used for high frequency local bypass of the power supply electrolytics.
0.15uF 63V  is about the biggest WIMA PP cap that fits in the available space. This is not part of the filter, completely different role.


----------



## fmzip (Feb 19, 2021)

b0bb said:


> The opamps run ±15V, 100V is more than sufficient.
> The replacements I used on the filter section are Vishay film+foil construction polypropylene to replace the stock metallized polyester+PET cap.
> The stock caps is responsible for much of the transient smearing and overemphasis of the top end.
> 
> ...


Can't seem to find the .15uf Wima in stock unless I am overlooking it...


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> So I should use .15uf?


Yes, make sure they are the 63V versions, higher voltages like 100V are too big and will not fit.


----------



## fmzip (Feb 19, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Yes, make sure they are the 63V versions, higher voltages like 100V are too big and will not fit.


Thanks b0bb, I believe this is the Wima .15uf 63v
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/505-MKP2C031501H00JO/

2200pf 100V
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/75-KP1830222011


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Thanks b0bb, I believe this is the one?
> 
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/505-MKP2C031501H00JO/


Yes MKP2
Here is what it looks like, space is quite tight


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> Yes MKP2
> Here is what it looks like, space is quite tight


It sure is....is that hot glue as well and a band of some sort?


----------



## Whitigir

Omg, you guys have totally been going crazy on the 004


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> It sure is....is that hot glue as well and a band of some sort?


Yes to stop things moving around, vibrating etc.
Heat shrink sleeving to hold the caps together.


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Omg, you guys have totally been going crazy on the 004


Sure have, not quite done yet...


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> I/V resistors 2 Watt Vishay TX2575 0.1% custom made to my specs by Texas Components.
> Mounted on the underside to minimize any air currents around the resistors.
> 
> What it does.
> ...



b0bb,

My resistors are also 68.1ohms. What exactly is needed to order these from Texas Components? Do you simple tell them you want a tx2575 68.1ohm 2watt .1% or do they require more information?


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> b0bb,
> 
> My resistors are also 68.1ohms. What exactly is needed to order these from Texas Components? Do you simple tell them you want a tx2575 68.1ohm 2watt .1% or do they require more information?


Below is the specification I sent to them

Qty:            4
Type:        TX2575 Vishay Z-Foil or equivalent
Resistance:    68.1 ohms
Power handling:    2W
Tolerance:    0.1%


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Yes MKP2
> Here is what it looks like, space is quite tight


@b0bb 
Cann you please share the type and value of the 220uF outputstag  capacitors.


----------



## MartinWT (Feb 20, 2021)

oldearwax said:


> Per b0bb's suggestion,
> I re-adjusted the offset voltage of each op-amp after  the Vcom  109D Wet tantalum cap replacement.
> I wrote down the voltage of each terminal before and after the adjustment (see attachment).
> Just a few milli Volt makes a big difference in sound.
> Strongly recommend this adjustment after the Vcom cap mod.



I've just checked and adjusted all six adjustments (I actually use the XLR outputs). They were all very low but I tweaked each one to within 1mV.


----------



## fmzip

Spent the morning doing a little metal fabricating......

Enjoying some Chet Baker now, 803s have never sounded so good!


----------



## oldearwax (Feb 20, 2021)

fmzip said:


> Nice work. Curious, how warm are those 3W resistors getting? Was wondering why they were put on the bottom side of the board in the first place and not the top


My guess:
the earlier boards only have one set of holes for both the resistor and capacitor, so the assembly instruction is to place the resistor on the bottom.
The newer boards have the extra holes but the assembly instruction stays.

There are also CPF2 61.9 Ohm 2 Watt  resistors, which are smaller.
I use CPF2 and CPF3  in my tube amps, they are better than garden variety carbon films.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> @b0bb
> Cann you please share the type and value of the 220uF outputstag  capacitors.


Rubycon 63TXW330MEFC8X40 63V 330uF
https://www.digikey.de/products/de?keywords=63TXW330MEFC8X40


----------



## b0bb (Feb 20, 2021)

@ktm15
@ST Chan

You have both mentioned issues with the latest version LKS "improvement" to the USB interface.
If your DAC has a layout similar to the picture below, the header + brass posts can be moved from position [2]  to position [1]

Once this is done the old enhanced Amanero interface can be installed to replace the one you have.

[The problems mentioned are poor sound quality/performance, lack of ability to flash new firmware with the new USB board]

@tdrood

To answer your question of about adding an electrolytic cap, you will have to desolder the ceramic cap and clean out the solder.
If there is a pair of thru-holes on the board you can replace the ceramic cap with the electrolytic.
This is marked as position [3]





Topless picture courtesy of @fmzip


----------



## MartinWT

fmzip said:


> Nice work. Curious, how warm are those 3W resistors getting? Was wondering why they were put on the bottom side of the board in the first place and not the top



I can answer that question now.  Not hot at all, I can keep my finger on one.


----------



## Xoverman

fmzip said:


> Spent the morning doing a little metal fabricating......
> 
> Enjoying some Chet Baker now, 803s have never sounded so good!


Looks great


----------



## DBX1

This board has been very active since Christmas.  I may want to make some of these improvements to the main board on my LKS.  How can I tell what version my board is ?  There are no markings on the top side of the board.


----------



## fmzip (Feb 23, 2021)

for you guys that are using your DAC with a PC/NUC, anyone using a linear power supply with either a PC or NUC? Wondering if the Apple M1 Mini I have running both HQplayer and Roon would benefit from a LPS?


----------



## fmzip (Feb 24, 2021)

DBX1 said:


> This board has been very active since Christmas.  I may want to make some of these improvements to the main board on my LKS.  How can I tell what version my board is ?  There are no markings on the top side of the board.


Of the first 7 steps suggested items for modifications to the main PCB in the link below courtesy of @b0bb , only item #4 may vary by version.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-16052688

Unfortunately the values of those specific parts are difficult to read with out pulling on or two parts off the board first as I did a few posts up:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-16188530

Did you have something else in mind that you wanted to change? These are the mods for the Anamero USB board. There are two versions of the USB board which can be easily determined if you pop the cover of your DAC off:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-8#post-12035366

If your USB board looks like the one at the top, the modifications listed above pertain to it:


----------



## tdrood

b0bb said:


> @ktm15
> @ST Chan
> 
> You have both mentioned issues with the latest version LKS "improvement" to the USB interface.
> ...


Thank you b0bb, is this the correct device https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/RNE1C821MDN1PH/?qs=Ajmft%2BTTukFux1QgXy4s/w== to go in the specified location (and numerous other locations throughout the board where LKS went to ceramics in lieu of electrolytics on my board?

Further, if I replace the ceramics with FPs, do I have to add an additional ceramic bypass cap? If so, can you give me some guidance on appropriate bypass caps?  I ask because you said this in a previous post:

QUOTE:
“LKS changed to ceramics on the Gen2.
Ceramics have low ESR but lacks the ripple current capacity.
Need the current capability to drive the very long trace lengths on the 004, seems like a very odd choice to go to ceramics.
I swapped the stock 470uF to 820uF with about 3x increase in ripple current capability, there is still a ceramic bypass so ESR is not expected to be an issue.
The 820uF is a newer line of the FP cap series”
END QUOTE

Man, I cannot thank you enough for for your help!!


----------



## oldearwax (Feb 25, 2021)

Looking at  MH-005, there are two 0.1uF Mundorf  Silver/Gold  caps. These caps
have good sonic attributes. Would  they be good as candidate for MH-004 Vcom Mod (even though a bit small in capacitance) ????


----------



## fmzip

MartinWT said:


> It's finally done - I decided to spend my Sunday afternoon wisely.
> 
> Below, you can see the four original 0.5W I/V resistors (much smaller ones mounted under the PCB) have been replaced by Vishay CPF3 61.9Ω 3W resistors mounted on top next to the capacitors. There is little room underneath with the heat spreader bar so I thought they would be better mounted on top.
> 
> ...


Martin.... Did you have to solder these resistors to the topside of the board or did the leads fit thru the board to solder them on the bottom? Just got a quote from Texas Components on the custom Vishay foils resistors. At $58 a piece x 4, trying to decide if I want to invest that amount of $$$'s into the DAC


----------



## b0bb

oldearwax said:


> Looking at  MH-005, there are two 0.1uF Mundorf  Silver/Gold  caps. These caps
> have good sonic attributes. Would  they be good as candidate for MH-004 Vcom Mod (even though a bit small in capacitance) ????


My Gen1 has both the electrolytic and plastic cap, these were replaced with the 150uF Vishay 109D tantalum slug and 0.15 WIMA MKP2 Polypropylene.

The DAC needs about 50MHz of bandwidth (2x DSD512 bitrate), so the Mundorf may run into inductance problems  at higher frequency but you will have to experiment to get a definite answer.

WIMA cap is the red one in the middle of the picture


----------



## b0bb (Feb 25, 2021)

tdrood said:


> Thank you b0bb, is this the correct device https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/RNE1C821MDN1PH/?qs=Ajmft%2BTTukFux1QgXy4s/w== to go in the specified location (and numerous other locations throughout the board where LKS went to ceramics in lieu of electrolytics on my board?
> 
> Further, if I replace the ceramics with FPs, do I have to add an additional ceramic bypass cap? If so, can you give me some guidance on appropriate bypass caps?  I ask because you said this in a previous post:
> 
> ...


820uF are RNL1C821MDS1KX. RNL 50% more ripple current  compared to RNC
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/RNL1C821MDS1KX/493-16382-1-ND/7428009

The cap next to the LVDS receiver needs to be shorter due to the Amanero  interface above it. RR50J391MDN1                                   
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/RR50J391MDN1/?qs=bW1g5Sys4u13ZNuhYdI6ZA==

The organic  polymer caps should not be used on the opamp power supplies only on the digital side. ESR is very uneven across the frequency range.

I used the 63V 330uF Rubycon TXW for the analog side. The ESR only varies about 10%  from 20kHz -100kHz.


----------



## oldearwax

b0bb said:


> My Gen1 has both the electrolytic and plastic cap, these were replaced with the 150uF Vishay 109D tantalum slug and 0.15 WIMA MKP2 Polypropylene.
> 
> The DAC needs about 50MHz of bandwidth (2x DSD512 bitrate), so the Mundorf may run into inductance problems  at higher frequency but you will have to experiment to get a definite answer.
> 
> WIMA cap is the red one in the middle of the picture


Thank you for your comment.

The 109D  150uF wet tantalum yields very strong bass. It also has ESR of 3 Ohm @ 120Hz,
so the  0.15uF (0.01 of 150uF) Wima acts
as a bypass cap to cover high frequency spectrum ?


----------



## b0bb

oldearwax said:


> so the  0.15uF (0.01 of 150uF) Wima acts
> as a bypass cap to cover high frequency spectrum ?


Yes


----------



## MartinWT

fmzip said:


> Martin.... Did you have to solder these resistors to the topside of the board or did the leads fit thru the board to solder them on the bottom? Just got a quote from Texas Components on the custom Vishay foils resistors. At $58 a piece x 4, trying to decide if I want to invest that amount of $$$'s into the DAC



They fitted through the holes just fine, so I could solder them underneath. I didn't need to disturb the caps at all, just leaned them over a bit. I made sure they are slightly air gapped and not touching.

I guess @b0bb has researched the IV resistors well and those bespoke Texas ones are probably the best. However, I can tell you that the Vishay CPF3 sound absolutely superb.


----------



## oldearwax

oldearwax said:


> Looking at  MH-005, there are two 0.1uF Mundorf  Silver/Gold  caps. These caps
> have good sonic attributes. Would  they be good as candidate for MH-004 Vcom Mod (even though a bit small in capacitance) ????


Apparently it is possible to use 0.1uF cap in the Vcom position. Tiago kindly sent me the mod and asked me to post it.
In addition to the caps, it requires four resistors change. See attachment. I haven't tried this mod yet.
Resistors are Vishay MMA0204


----------



## b0bb (Feb 27, 2021)

oldearwax said:


> Apparently it is possible to use 0.1uF cap in the Vcom position. Tiago kindly sent me the mod and asked me to post it.
> In addition to the caps, it requires four resistors change. See attachment. I haven't tried this mod yet.
> Resistors are Vishay MMA0204


Not advisible, the values have been increased almost 100x from stock to compensate for the 100x lower cap value, this increases the impedance 100x, making the Vcom reference more vulnerable to RF noise pickup, you will have to shield the resistors to avoid RF noise pickup.

The biggest source is the adjacent XO @100MHz followed by any strong FM radio stations nearby.

The input capacitance of the jfet input of the opamp plus the high resistance (470k) forms the input of a primitive RC radio tuner.
Stock DAC avoids this by using a much lower 5k resistor value to dampen any pickup.


I am not sure if the 0.1uF Mundorfs is worth this kind of trouble, you have seen how sensitive the Vcom is to even a few millivolts offset.
(The stock value is already marginal in suppressing RF pickup as @Xoverman  and others have shown thru experiments with shielding, you should try and avoid making the problem worse)

You have the ultra low leakage 150uF cap, you could scale down the value of the resistive divider chain by 5x to 1kohm, this is still large enough compared to the 3ohm ESR of the cap, there are 2 main benefits

1) Vcom offset errors reduced by 5x from cap leakage current
2) 5x lowering of the impedance of the reference chain resulting in improvement in RF pickup resistance

RF noise pickup vulnerability is one of the main weaknesses of the 004.


----------



## Xoverman

Interesting,  I don't seem to have the WIMA cap on the ref. Voltage.  Just dust from my oven.


----------



## b0bb

Someone asked about the the trimpots.
They are metal foil Vishay VFR 1240W, replaces the stock Tocos 10k metal oxide (cermet) units.

These trimpots set the operating condition for the I/V.
This mod cleans up a very nasty aspect of the Saber house sound, namely where the high notes hits a threshold and shatters like glass breaking.
Same reason for going to the foil resistors for the I/V resistor.

Cermets are notorious for drifting, the metal foil trimmer is 2-4x less, the net effect is to reduce DC offset drift at the outputs.
As discussed previously DC offset changes of a few millivolts is audible on the 004 if the playback chain is sensitive enough.


----------



## b0bb

TPS7A47 regulators used in the 004 have a 1uF noise reduction cap.
Replaced the ceramic cap with 1uF Rubycon acrylic (25MU105MA23216 )

Depending on the 004 model there are between 3-5 TPS7A47 used.

This fixed the recessed midrange issues with the 004, brings out the vocals more prominently, less smearing of the soundstage.


----------



## b0bb

NR cap for the LT1763 on the Gen1 models

Stock 10nF ceramic replaced with 10nF PPS film cap
Part is Kemet LDBCA2100GC5N0


----------



## b0bb

100uF Nichicon FP-RR (RR71C101MDN1) output cap replaces 10uF WIMA Polyester.
The RR cap has 2x lower ESR and 50% less loss (tanδ), measured @100kHz


Bass slam improves after this mod in both speed and depth.


----------



## tdrood

Holy crap, b0bb - you are going to TOWN on this bitch!


----------



## tdrood

Xoverman said:


> Interesting,  I don't seem to have the WIMA cap on the ref. Voltage.  Just dust from my oven.


Me neither, the boards seem to be quite different in this area from 1st to 2nd gen.


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> 100uF Nichicon FP-RR (RR71C101MDN1) output cap replaces 10uF WIMA Polyester.
> The RR cap has 2x lower ESR and 50% less loss (tanδ), measured @100kHz
> 
> 
> Bass slam improves after this mod in both speed and depth.


Is it these two caps b0bb that get replaced? Always after more slam and accuracy!


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Is it these two caps b0bb that get replaced? Always after more slam and accuracy!


It is better to replace all the caps on the final stage regulators for the DAC to get the full benefit.
820uF RNLs on the input side 100uF RRs on the output side
You will need to check that the input cap of the regulator for the XO is on the left in the picture below, the voltage across it will be 5V
This regulator is the one just below the XO


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> Someone asked about the the trimpots.
> They are metal foil Vishay VFR 1240W, replaces the stock Tocos 10k metal oxide (cermet) units.



Thanks @b0bb can I just ask if the Vishay replacements just improve on the DC offset or do they make a difference in sound quality over the cermets?


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> Thanks @b0bb can I just ask if the Vishay replacements just improve on the DC offset or do they make a difference in sound quality over the cermets?


Both, trimmer is in the audio path, cermet performs worse than metal film for audio.


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> It is better to replace all the caps on the final stage regulators for the DAC to get the full benefit.
> 820uF RNLs on the input side 100uF RRs on the output side
> You will need to check that the input cap of the regulator for the XO is on the left in the picture below, the voltage across it will be 5V
> This regulator is the one just below the XO


Thanks @b0bb 

My board is the newer version. Did you replace all the caps with the parts of the same capacitance that were already there? I can see from my photo that the FP caps that are already there are 470uf which is why I am asking


----------



## b0bb (Mar 1, 2021)

fmzip said:


> Did you replace all the caps with the parts of the same capacitance that were already there? I can see from my photo that the FP caps that are already there are 470uf which is why I am asking


No, caps values have been changed to the values mentioned earlier.

Stock 470uF is underrated for input filtering, could do with more ripple current handling and better surge voltage handling, 6.3V is a little too close to the 5V operating voltage.
Overrated for output side, affects  regulator transient response to sudden voltage changes which are quite common in digital loads


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> Both, trimmer is in the audio path, cermet performs worse than metal film for audio.



Thank you.  Please may I check this is the model?  They are pricy and I don't want to get it wrong.
https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDet.../Y405310K0000J0L/?qs=OeYRSXBqOJtCaiZcGrHwDA==

I assume that, as I don't use the single-ended outputs, I only need 4 rather than 6.


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> Thank you.  Please may I check this is the model?  They are pricy and I don't want to get it wrong.
> https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Vishay-Precision-Group-Foil-Resistors/Y405310K0000J0L/?qs=OeYRSXBqOJtCaiZcGrHwDA==
> 
> I assume that, as I don't use the single-ended outputs, I only need 4 rather than 6.


Yes, use 4 if you do not care for the unbalanced RCA outs.


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> Yes, use 4 if you do not care for the unbalanced RCA outs.



I've ordered them from Mouser.


----------



## fmzip

Bought myself a vacuum solder pump thinking it would make my life easy replacing a bunch of capacitors! NOPE!!!

Should have bit the bullet and bought a Hako for $100 more. This one has zilch for suction. Even with a part removed, it can't clear a hole.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08S7D7XGN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 

Bringing the board to the shop tomorrow to use the right tools, or to let someone with better skills tackle the job


----------



## fmzip (Mar 2, 2021)

oldearwax said:


> My guess:
> the earlier boards only have one set of holes for both the resistor and capacitor, so the assembly instruction is to place the resistor on the bottom.
> The newer boards have the extra holes but the assembly instruction stays.
> 
> ...


Just measured my resistors, they are 68.1 ohm like @b0bb

The CPF2's are the only one's that come in this value but 1% tolerance, instead of .1%. Is this still beneficial to use CPF2 1% versus the 1% resistor 1/4w resistor that's already on the board? b0bb, what are your thoughts? Trying not to spend 250 bucks on the custom ones you went with....

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/CPF268R100FKE14/?qs=/ha2pyFaduiwd9HVfcMNdLHRnbxGqUVMVykT7B8MhvE=

If anyone needs 61.9 ohm CF3's, I have 4 I can mail to you.....


----------



## b0bb (Mar 3, 2021)

fmzip said:


> board? b0bb, what are your thoughts? Trying not to spend 250 bucks on the custom ones you went with....
> 
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/CPF268R100FKE14/?qs=/ha2pyFaduiwd9HVfcMNdLHRnbxGqUVMVykT7B8MhvE=


Not sure why you want to spend money replacing the stock resistor with something that has 2x worse tolerance and 2x worse temp drift (TCR).
You are not going to see/hear much improvement unless you are willing to improve things by an order of magnitude aka 10fold or more.


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> Not sure why you want to spend money replacing the stock resistor with something that has 2x worse tolerance and 2x worse temp drift (TCR).
> You are not going to see/hear much improvement unless you are willing to improve things by an order of magnitude aka 10fold or more.


I appreciate your patience with my questions, I am sure it can be frustrating to some degree. I'm totally inept at the technical explanation for the most part which is why I post what are likely to be foolish questions to the talented experts posting in this thread. I used to purchase electronic components but I am not an engineer. I can use a soldering iron on thru-hole components, that's it.  My 30 year career has been in printed circuit board assembly, how all this stuff functions is still beyond me. 

The directions you have posted for modifications have been stellar, just trying to see if there is was a viable option other than the $58 per part Texas Components on this particular resistor. From the sounds of it, there aren't. After today's parts are in, I've completed all steps provided except #6. I'll get the Texas Components resistors on order today. 

b0bb's Modification Guide: Steps 1-7

b0bb's Anamero USB Modification Guide

If you have some time at some point, would it be possible to continue to add to the guide with further steps? I found it extremely helpful following a simple step by step guide in order of importance. Thank you again for the time you put into this, very much appreciated!


----------



## MartinWT

The CPF361R900BEE14 that I used are 0.1% tolerance, 25ppm/C drift and sound fantastic compared with the stock ones.  Only £2.48 each from Mouser.


----------



## fmzip

MartinWT said:


> The CPF361R900BEE14 that I used are 0.1% tolerance, 25ppm/C drift and sound fantastic compared with the stock ones.  Only £2.48 each from Mouser.


Unfortunately, I need a 68.1 Ohm......not available in that series


----------



## MartinWT

I think b0bb said that the exact value is unimportant as the ES9038 sets the I/V current on startup. Substitute the nearest value.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 3, 2021)

MartinWT said:


> I think b0bb said that the exact value is unimportant as the ES9038 sets the I/V current on startup. Substitute the nearest value



Substitution is not recommended.
Additional work will have to be carried out to re-adjust the frequency compensation for the opamp.

I said 2 things.
If you change the the i/v transfer ratio
1) Gain changes, drops in this case, it will worsen the output  issues you were already seeing
2) The bandwidth of the feedback loop for the I/V converter changes, the transient and step response to quick input changes is impacted, this makes the top end handling much worse, commonly referred to as the "Sabre32 sound"


This was in response to a very specific question from @ESL57 about  the operating current


b0bb said:


> The operating current is programmed into the ES9038 at startup by its support microcontroller.
> 
> Changing the resistor value will not change the operating current, only the i/v transfer ratio.



@Xoverman asked about a week later about substituting the I/V resistor


b0bb said:


> Please keep the replacement resistor as close to the stock I/V resistor as possible.
> The SMD trimmer on the board has a very limited  number of adjustment cycles, avoid readjustment as much as possible.
> 
> The I/V resistor in parallel with the I/V cap is responsible for the frequency compensation due to the input capacitance seen at the I/V input.
> ...


----------



## MartinWT

I meant a very close substitute value, of course, but there don't seem to be any on Mouser.


----------



## ESL57

Hello, I haven't been here for a long time, I'm glad to see that this is very active and there is a lot of new about mods, which I like. For my part, I made some changes to increase the output gain in the I / V stage, this masked much more the noises in some DSD files, but I don't quite like the sound achieved, I think I will return to the 68.1ohm resistors and I will remove the TO220- 75ohm ones that I use for tests, I made more changes between other capacitor tests and I changed the trimmers for precision multiturn. I'll test B0bb's anti-noise capacitor mods. Now 2 questions, my voltage rails from the analog source were at 16.5v and -16.5v, do you have B0bb and the rest of GEN1 ?, What do you think about using "styroflex" capacitors in parallel with the I / V resistors instead made of polypropylene?


----------



## fmzip (Mar 4, 2021)

Got my board back today after my soldering guru at the shop cleaned up my poor attempt at rework 

I don't know about the rest of you but post mod power-up excitement is always filled with mixed emotion. Fear first sets in.....did I botch this up permanently??!! 

Then, the sensational relief as soon as music begins to play, instead of white noise or static! 


Fortunately, I was blessed by the music & mod gods with musical BLISS after completing steps 1-7, with the exception on the IV resistors as mentioned previously. I listened to a variety of tracks for several hours and was simply blown away with the transformation of sound. Example, my B&W 803's and the combo of the ESS Sabre DAC forced me to dial my preamp's treble back to -3db and boost the bass to +6db. Even with Anthem's Room correction dialed in, my ears would bleed from the highs. Things have steadily improved with the prior mods of steps 1-3 along with the addition of my Kitsune SU2. Steps 4, 5 &7 completed, my system is totally different. Mid range and bass is so much more accurate and powerful. Bass can now be dialed back to +3db, treble to -1db. Really quite remarkable! I thought to myself why mess around any further??

As we know with the disease we all have, curiosity is hard to contain. Can there possibly be another level of audio nirvana??? Should I order the custom resistors from Texas Components for $258?? What's another $258 in the grand scheme of things?? Thanks @b0bb , I haven't had this much pleasure spending money on audio in a very long time. All your suggestions thus far have been spot on! Resistors should arrive in about three weeks.

I'm going to try to do my level best and just listen to music for the time being, listen to things settle in and avoid checking this thread several times a day! Let's see how THAT goes....


----------



## MartinWT

fmzip said:


> I don't know about the rest of you but post mod power-up excitement is always filled with mixed emotion. Fear first sets in.....did I botch this up permanently??!!



Yes!  When I used to rework my Beresford Caiman SEG DAC, it was an easy board to work on, double-sided only and I even replaced SMDs without too much bother.  Perhaps the relatively low cost of the DAC made me unconcerned at working on it, as well as having Stan around for advice and tips.  Some of us really made that DAC sing.

The LKS is another matter: the board is harder to work on, especially when sucking solder from tight spaces.  It's Chinese, so effectively no support and a month at least to purchase a replacement board should the worst happen.  It makes me much more nervous of bricking it.

Thank goodness for this forum, an oracle of information.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 5, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Now 2 questions, my voltage rails from the analog source were at 16.5v and -16.5v, do you have B0bb and the rest of GEN1 ?, What do you think about using "styroflex" capacitors in parallel with the I / V resistors instead made of polypropylene?


Mine is ±15.5V, If you replace any of the components like the filter caps just re-adjust the grey trimmer.
I did this when I replaced the shunt resistors in the analog power supply with Caddock MP915s.

Styroflex Polystyrene (PS) caps will round out the midrange making it richer, polypropylene is a little on the cold side.
The problem with PS is getting in tight enough tolerance to match the resistor tolerance.
You have to be extremely careful not to melt them when soldering.
Temp control during soldering is tricky on the LKS board.


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> The LKS is another matter: the board is harder to work on, especially when sucking solder from tight spaces.  It's Chinese, so effectively no support and a month at least to purchase a replacement board should the worst happen.  It makes me much more nervous of bricking it.
> 
> Thank goodness for this forum, an oracle of information.


The board has to be pre-heated to bring the surrounding area up to temperature otherwise the goundplanes will suck the heat out of the iron quicker that it can heat it.


----------



## fmzip

MartinWT said:


> Yes!  When I used to rework my Beresford Caiman SEG DAC, it was an easy board to work on, double-sided only and I even replaced SMDs without too much bother.  Perhaps the relatively low cost of the DAC made me unconcerned at working on it, as well as having Stan around for advice and tips.  Some of us really made that DAC sing.
> 
> The LKS is another matter: the board is harder to work on, especially when sucking solder from tight spaces.  It's Chinese, so effectively no support and a month at least to purchase a replacement board should the worst happen.  It makes me much more nervous of bricking it.
> 
> Thank goodness for this forum, an oracle of information.


So funny you mention Stan and the Caiman. That was the first DAC I had. I modded it as well. Needless to say, I destroyed it from lifting a few pads with my poor soldering. Stan actual was kind enough to sell me just a board to replace mine. I destroyed the second one as well after swapping parts one too many times!

Maybe this is why I am getting to the point of leaving this board inside the DAC once and for all. The investment in this one is far steeper, the sound is 1000x better as well. I think I'd cry if I were to scrap this DAC at this point in time. At least I am smart enough now to let the pros at my shop who are skilled in soldering do the mods when I am in over my head.

The thing they teach in our IPC soldering classes is you really don't ever want to touch a solder joint unless you have to. The stress from heating up that pad is not a good thing. On a multilayer board like this one, a lifted solder pad could be costly. Not as simple as a doubled sided board where you can run a jumper wire if you screw something up and lift a pad.


b0bb said:


> The board has to be pre-heated to bring the surrounding area up to temperature otherwise the goundplanes will suck the heat out of the iron quicker that it can heat it.


exactly what my tech said


----------



## oldearwax (Mar 5, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> By the way, why did they put this 10uf / 500v EPCOS capacitor, why this model with so much voltage?


ESL57,
I *think* EPCOS cap in the Vcom position is for "sound" and not for voltage.
Capacitor in this Vcom position has a profound effect on the sound of this DAC.
The EPCOS cap has a lot of details and ambience/air , but not as much bass as a tantalum cap.
The voltage @ Vcom is only 1.21 volt !



You have replaced your EPCOS with a yellow capacitor and blue cap. What are those ?
Can you describe the new sound ? Thank you in advance.


----------



## oldearwax

b0bb said:


> Not advisible, the values have been increased almost 100x from stock to compensate for the 100x lower cap value, this increases the impedance 100x, making the Vcom reference more vulnerable to RF noise pickup, you will have to shield the resistors to avoid RF noise pickup.
> 
> The biggest source is the adjacent XO @100MHz followed by any strong FM radio stations nearby.
> 
> ...


RC remains the same.

Stock
   A) R=5K C=10uF       RC= 5x1000x10x10**-6                          = 5x0.01

0.1uF mod (LKS005 ??)
   B) R=500K C=0.1uF    RC= 500x1000x0.1x10**-6                   = 5x0.01

Bass is strong with the wet tantalum Vcom mod, background is darker too. Perhaps too strong for my taste.
The delicate top end and very fine details are lost.
Most unfortunate  is that solo piano music does sound right to my ears.
The lower registers sound  impactful.
But the higher register notes sound more like hammering, the resonace decay is lost.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 5, 2021)

oldearwax said:


> RC remains the same.
> 
> Stock
> A) R=5K C=10uF       RC= 5x1000x10x10**-6                          = 5x0.01
> ...


That is the trap you fell into, did you actually trace the 005 board or merely speculated on what might be the case based on the photos?
Do you have detailed photos showing what LKS did with their new design on the 005?






The following from the online calculator: https://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1258032649

Your mod increased the input impedance of one of the differential inputs by 100x but did nothing to address the impedance seen by the other input.
This results in unbalancing the differential performance of the I/V.

The impedance seen by the opamp inverting input is about 25ohms, but the non inverting input goes from 16ohms to 1600ohms, that will change the sound for sure.
The I/V input impedance is completely unbalanced by your mod in addition to creating a radio tuner frontend as mentioned before

The mod you proposed messes with the frequency compensation, the input capacitance + input impedance causes a peak in gain at the resonant frequency.
Now that the impedance is altered, the scheme LKS put in no longer applies.
Frequency compensation affects the stability, it can bite you later if your mods eat away too much of the stability margin LKS built into their opamp.

You got lucky the discrete opamp did not become unstable with your mods, others like @ESL57 and @ktm15 were not so fortunate.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 5, 2021)

Gen1 004s have a 22ohm resistor between Vcom and the non-inverting input.
Impedance seen by the inverting input is about 22ohm at high frequencies.
This helps to keep the impedances approximately equal between the inverting and non-inverting inputs when this point is reached.

With 5k//150uF Tantalum cap the impedance  of the RC network at 350Hz is about 3ohm which is the min ESR of the cap
This means Vcom sees a flat  impedance of 25ohms (22 from resistor + 3 ohm Vcom network ) from 350Hz -22KHz
This is about equal the impedance of the inverting input

Gen2s seem to be missing this resistor, if it is indeed missing this might be something worth adding back to the Gen2 boards.
Without the resistors the impedance falls with frequency and the differential balance varies with frequency.

The Gen1 board could also do with a mod to move the flat part of the impedance lower say 35Hz but the cost of the caps becomes prohibitively expensive need about 680uF


----------



## b0bb (Mar 6, 2021)

This shows the topology of the 9038Pro strapped for mono operation.
VCM is Vcom  (non-inverting input) should be seeing the same impedance as the DAC output impedance at the inverting input.
DAC output impedance is 25ohm.


----------



## oldearwax

b0bb said:


> That is the trap you fell into, did you actually trace the 005 board or merely speculated on what might be the case based on the photos?
> Do you have detailed photos showing what LKS did with their new design on the 005?
> 
> The following from the online calculator: https://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1258032649
> ...


It is not "my mod", I posted the mod in #3332 for Tiago.  
@tiago please join the discussion and share your impression of this mod.

The RC that I was referring to is the Time Constant to replenish the voltage due to leakage.
See diagram.
Vcom ideally should stay constant. Practically it is performed by the (equivalent) resistor R and capacitor C.
I don't know why these values were picked.

I know nothing about op-amp frequency compensation.
I agree that the input impedance of both inverting and non-inverting inputs should not be varied too much.
But this is not possible due to frequency dependency of the impedance of Vcom capacitor C.

The 150uF wet tantalum cap mod also modified the input impedance by 15x too.

What is the spectrum of frequency of this Vcom capacitor C subjected to ??? Do you know ?
 The output of the DAC is a sequence of sigma-delta  spikes (I could be totally wrong here)  which
 may have all kinds of frequencies. This is my guess.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 6, 2021)

oldearwax said:


> It is not "my mod", I posted the mod in #3332 for Tiago.
> @tiago please join the discussion and share your impression of this mod.
> 
> The RC that I was referring to is the Time Constant to replenish the voltage due to leakage.
> ...



RC values are a scale factor, the actual impedance is determined by the frequency
Merely looking at RC values means missing a big chunk of what is actually going on.

If you want to implement some of the changes from the 005, at least get the detailed pictures to understand what LKS did.
The blurry marketing photos should not be used as any form of reference
All we are able to see is the 0.1uF.
Do you even know it is the Vcom cap without evidence of the physical connection from the trace on the board?



oldearwax said:


> I know nothing about op-amp frequency compensation.
> I agree that the input impedance of both inverting and non-inverting inputs should not be varied too much.
> But this is not possible due to frequency dependency of the impedance of Vcom capacitor C.


That is why Gen1s have the 22ohm resistor, impedance never drops below 22ohms.
The way you have drawn things is definately not the case in the Gen1 board.

If you want to mod why not do this mod instead?


oldearwax said:


> The 150uF wet tantalum cap mod also modified the input impedance by 15x too.


That is what gives you the extra bass extension.

Capacitor reactance increases with falling frequency, it becomes less effective with lowering frequency
With 10uF//5k, the reactance is 3 ohms at 5000Hz (most sensitive frequency band of human hearing)
With 150uF//5k, the reactance is 3 ohms at 350Hz
3ohms is the min ESR of the cap so its reactance never falls below 3ohms.
Below the frequency where the reactance hits 3 ohms the bypass becomes less and less effective as rectance rises, the lower you go in frequency range.

This means the bypass operates up to a frequency 15x lower without the penalty of crazylow reactance at the higher frequency upsetting the I/V balance too much.
(It works better if you have the 22ohm in series, it then becomes 25 ohm instead of 3ohms).

This is why the tantalum caps work as well  they do, the 150uF extends bypass down to 350Hz compared to stock which starts to become in-effective at 5kHz
This is the reason  the low midrange and upper bass performance on the 004 is lifted.





oldearwax said:


> What is the spectrum of frequency of this Vcom capacitor C subjected to ??? Do you know ?
> The output of the DAC is a sequence of sigma-delta  spikes (I could be totally wrong here)  which
> may have all kinds of frequencies. This is my guess.


Depends on the sampling frequency typically 22MHz, the main impact is on the audio signal not the sampling noise as the impedence rises as the frequency falls.
At 22MHz the cap has effectively removed the resistor from the signal path, very undesirable as it unbalanced the I/V.
Gen1 used a 22ohm to isolate the opamp input.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 6, 2021)

@ESL57 remove the 2 yellow caps and see if you like the result.
@Whitigir I think you have a Gen1, you might also see some benefit for your 004

This removes the frequency bypass of the I/V input impedance compensation resistor, the I/V is now compensated across it entire operating frequency range.


----------



## b0bb

deleted duplicate response


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> @ESL57 remove the 2 yellow caps and see if you like the result.
> @Whitigir I think you have a Gen1, you might also see some benefit for your 004
> 
> This removes the frequency bypass of the I/V input impedance compensation resistor, the I/V is now compensated across it entire operating frequency range.



If I understand correctly the resistor near the blue capactor is 22ohm? In the Gen2 there are no such resistors, could it be added?


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> The Gen1 board could also do with a mod to move the flat part of the impedance lower say 35Hz but the cost of the caps becomes prohibitively expensive need about 680uF


So the bigger the tantalum cap the better and the optimum is 680uF? For the Gen2 it isn't true?


----------



## b0bb (Mar 6, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> If I understand correctly the resistor near the blue capactor is 22ohm? In the Gen2 there are no such resistors, could it be added?


If you mean below the yellow cap,  that is the 22ohm.
Yes the 22 ohm can be added.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> So the bigger the tantalum cap the better and the optimum is 680uF? For the Gen2 it isn't true?


Applies for Gen2 as well.

Optimum is about 2200uF, the transition point is about 20Hz, 268USD each at Mouser and you will need 2 pcs. 
I was not joking about the cost prohibitive comment.

680uF takes things down to 75Hz, about 90USD each.
150uF takes things to 350Hz, about 40USD each.

Either choice is going to be a vast improvement from stock, the transition point is 5kHz for stock.
It boils down how much bass improvement, you can afford


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Applies for Gen2 as well.
> 
> Optimum is about 2200uF, the transition point is about 20Hz, 268USD each at Mouser and you will need 2 pcs.
> I was not joking about the cost prohibitive comment.
> ...


What about an active 1ppm reference?


----------



## ti5002000

oldearwax said:


> It is not "my mod", I posted the mod in #3332 for Tiago.
> @tiago please join the discussion and share your impression of this mod.
> 
> The RC that I was referring to is the Time Constant to replenish the voltage due to leakage.
> ...



Hi

What I can say is that the modification in the resistors was given to me by Jinbo, the creator of our dacs, when I asked him if I can use the 0.1 uf of the 005. He said yes but I have to change the resistors in the picture he sent me and that you posted here. 

Best


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Applies for Gen2 as well.
> 
> Optimum is about 2200uF, the transition point is about 20Hz, 268USD each at Mouser and you will need 2 pcs.
> I was not joking about the cost prohibitive comment.
> ...



Maybe something like this is a good compromise?

https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AVX/TAP337K006CRW?qs=Ceko5R2PisCcUwtefFpTaA==


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> What about an active 1ppm reference?


The topic here is low frequency AC bypass, that has to be done for any method used to generate the Vcom voltage.
The stock DAC has inadequate LF AC bypass for Vcom.

If you want to provide adequate LF AC bypass going down to 20Hz then the bypass cap is quite big.

The wet tantalums allow large values of capacitance to be used without leakage causing unwanted side effects unlike Alumninum or Polymer caps where leakge increases linearly with capacitance


----------



## Whitigir (Mar 6, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Applies for Gen2 as well.
> 
> Optimum is about 2200uF, the transition point is about 20Hz, 268USD each at Mouser and you will need 2 pcs.
> I was not joking about the cost prohibitive comment.
> ...


Dang! this is 1/2 the price of the 004 used lol!  So we take out the 2 of 63uf and put these 2 in ?
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Tansitor/STE2200-50T4KI?qs=bhRDl8yh5u3yhXfMyln8OA==


----------



## b0bb (Mar 6, 2021)

ti5002000 said:


> Hi
> 
> What I can say is that the modification in the resistors was given to me by Jinbo, the creator of our dacs, when I asked him if I can use the 0.1 uf of the 005. He said yes but I have to change the resistors in the picture he sent me and that you posted here.
> 
> Best


Was this a recommended upgrade or a "try at your own risk" type of change?

(LKS's decisions can sometimes be very odd, case in point is the XO, they have stubbornly refused to offer a better XO for the 004.
This is the first item that gets tossed out as you yourself have done with the SiTime SIT-5357)


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Maybe something like this is a good compromise?
> 
> https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AVX/TAP337K006CRW?qs=Ceko5R2PisCcUwtefFpTaA==





> That is a starting point.


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Dang! this is 1/2 the price of the 004 used lol!  So we take out the 2 of 63uf and put these 2 in ?
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Tansitor/STE2200-50T4KI?qs=bhRDl8yh5u3yhXfMyln8OA==


Try pulling the 0.1uF bypass I mentioned earlier before trying anything like the above.


----------



## ti5002000

b0bb said:


> Was this a recommended upgrade or a "try at your own risk" type of change?


Bobb
Why he would do that? 
Why would he have the work to do a picture with certain resistor values, if it wasn't safe and he know it is ok? 
After all, we all enjoying his creation.
They made some bad choices in the layout but they also made very good ones. If it weren't from lks we aren't here taking about this fine DAC today. 
He didn't say that I can try and see for yourself.. That kind of thing.. He just said, yes, you can use it but you have to change the resistors. 
In the end, the mod is in the picture. 
If you want to go that route, so be it, if you want to go by b0bb's, so be it. 
In the end we must do what we think is best and that would make us enjoy the music even better.


----------



## Whitigir (Mar 6, 2021)

My apologies, I have not been following for a while.  So this long vertical is the Vishay expensive cap, and this is the wima to replace RK ? What is the part for it ?
about the trim pot, if replaced, do we need to adjust anything ? @b0bb


----------



## b0bb

ti5002000 said:


> They made some bad choices in the layout but they also made very good ones. If it weren't from lks we aren't here taking about this fine DAC today.
> He didn't say that I can try and see for yourself.. That kind of thing.. He just said, yes, you can use it but you have to change the resistors.


That is a bad recommendation just like their decision to stick with the CCHD-575 XO
You yourself replaced it with something better.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 6, 2021)

Whitigir said:


> My apologies, I have not been following for a while.  So this long vertical is the Vishay expensive cap, and this is the wima to replace RK ? What is the part for it ?
> about the trim pot, if replaced, do we need to adjust anything ? @b0bb


Just remove the red WIMA, no need to re-adjust.
I swapped out the original cap for the WIMA, I ended out removing the cap totally.

The WIMA bypasses the 22ohm resistor which matches the input impedance of the I/V to the DAC's output impedance.
This causes the diffrential inputs of the I/V to see different impedances at higher frequencies (above 70kHz)
LKS got rid of it in the Gen2 board as well.

If you replace the long vertical cap then you have to re-trim due to a reduction in leakage.


----------



## Whitigir

Ah man... this is killing me.  I want more bass slam for sure but all these wet tantalum Vishay are so expensive LOL!


----------



## Whitigir

b0bb said:


> Just remove the red WIMA, no need to re-adjust.
> I swapped out the original cap for the WIMA, I ended out removing the cap totally.
> 
> The WIMA bypasses the 22ohm resistor which matches the input impedance of the I/V to the DAC's output impedance.
> ...


Which points of references do I measure upto what values to trim and adjust ? given that I want full benefits lol


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Ah man... this is killing me.  I want more bass slam for sure but all these wet tantalum Vishay are so expensive LOL!


Wet Tantalums are the way to go but if you want something cheaper check the solid yellow beads, leakage is 8x higher but you get what you pay for.

It will give you a taste of what is possible


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Which points of references do I measure upto what values to trim and adjust ? given that I want full benefits lol


On the XLR pin 2 is ground, trim until the voltage between pins 1-2 and 2-3 read zero on the meter.
Repeat for the RCA.

Trim XLR first and then the RCA and not the other way around.
The trimmers are the little black pots with the Tocos label.


----------



## dna301

XLR Pin 2 is GND in 004 ? Instead standard Pin 1 ?


----------



## Whitigir

dna301 said:


> XLR Pin 2 is GND in 004 ? Instead standard Pin 1 ?


Should be standard 1, but sometimes going from male to female, they have reverted positions and I am often confused when writing or recalling from memory LOL....Ofcourse never confused in application though.  But I understand that these pots are DC balanced adjustment


----------



## b0bb

Whitigir said:


> Should be standard 1, but sometimes going from male to female, they have reverted positions and I am often confused when writing or recalling from memory LOL....Ofcourse never confused in application though.  But I understand that these pots are DC balanced adjustment


For the DC balance adjustment, the ground pin of XLR is as shown.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Yes, use 4 if you do not care for the unbalanced RCA outs.



These one would be better than the one used in the 004?

https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bourns/PV36W103C01B00?qs=XtBVvwDtlv0YnSNxZ/UOnw==


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> These one would be better than the one used in the 004?
> 
> https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bourns/PV36W103C01B00?qs=XtBVvwDtlv0YnSNxZ/UOnw==


No, too big.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> If you mean below the yellow cap,  that is the 22ohm.
> Yes the 22 ohm can be added.



Thank you b0bb, but do you recommend adding the 22ohm resistor to to the Gen2 DAC after replacing original Vcom cap to a tantalum?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Thank you b0bb, but do you recommend adding the 22ohm resistor to to the Gen2 DAC after replacing original Vcom cap to a tantalum?


Yes.

In order to avoid cutting the PCB trace, the resistors require special placement.

Check with someone with the needed skills and a Gen2  like @Xoverman to help get the specific implementation steps worked out.
As I do not have a Gen2, someone needs to verify that the Gen2 boards do not have the mentioned resistor.

It is likely that Gen2 boards can only accommodate 1 resistor per channel vs 2 on the Gen1, this is not an issue


----------



## b0bb (Mar 6, 2021)

When mounting the tantalum cap, some caps may have an exposed joint like the picture below.
The purple part is pure tantalum wire.

DO NOT solder this or cut the wire near this joint, it can break.
Tantalum wire cannot be soldered using the solder normally used in electronics.
Mounting should place the negative pole of the cap against the board with the +ve side lead bent downwards towards the board.

The extra wire helps with heatsinking during soldering, the electrolyte is liquid so be careful not to overheat the cap during soldering.
(PS This is another reason to avoid buying old surplus caps, the seals can fail during soldering and spray corrosive electrolyte everywhere.
The cap below was made in late 1997, this cap is 23 years old)


----------



## piaseczek

oldearwax said:


> RC remains the same.
> 
> Stock
> A) R=5K C=10uF       RC= 5x1000x10x10**-6                          = 5x0.01
> ...


Let me better understand what you did in your mod. 
Have you replaced the Vcom cap to the wet tantalum without changing the 5k resistor?


----------



## MartinWT

Whitigir said:


> Ah man... this is killing me.  I want more bass slam for sure but all these wet tantalum Vishay are so expensive LOL!



The 100uF yellow tantalums gave a considerable improvement over the original vertical electrolytics.
My Usher speakers already do 'big air movement' and very tight bass, not sure I need or want any more!

I realise it could be different for headphones.

My Vishay trimmers are delayed, got a message from Mouser.  Should arrive mid-March.


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> For the DC balance adjustment, the ground pin of XLR is as shown.


Does this adjustment need to take place if you swap out for yellow bead tantalum cap as well or just the wet tantalum?


----------



## oldearwax

piaseczek said:


> Let me better understand what you did in your mod.
> Have you replaced the Vcom cap to the wet tantalum without changing the 5k resistor?


Yes, no change in  stock resistor. Just swap out the Vcom cap.
 C = wet tantalum 109D 150uF 10V


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Does this adjustment need to take place if you swap out for yellow bead tantalum cap as well or just the wet tantalum?


Measure the DC voltage in the XLR pins and the RCA outs.
If any of the measurements exceed 5mV, consider adjustments.

This is mandatory if your playback chain is DC coupled all the way aka no signal coupling caps.


----------



## szrurs03

b0bb said:


> Here is one way to increase the microdetail and soundstage of the 004.
> 
> The 2 pale green resistors with 1904 written on them are 5ohm Vishay VSMP Z-Foil
> - Non inductive
> ...


----------



## szrurs03

hello bob
Can these resistors be fitted for 9028pro.(5ohm)VSMP Z-Foil


----------



## dna301

b0bb, 5ohm value is ok with 950x?


----------



## ESL57

This thread is getting more and more interesting, this dac gives a lot of play for the enjoyment of the changes. Just remember that my tests were always aimed at solving the problem of random noise in DSD files recorded with low level, my 004 is not GEN1, better call it GEN0 (my pcb is different). Swap Vcom's Epcos capacitor for polymer-aluminum to hear it, definitely not the way to go, sure to have more current leakage than other types like wet tantalum, silicon or Teflon capacitors (these last 2 only manufactured at low capacitances). My goals are the same as most of you, low frequencies are not all the best (improve the analog power supply and it was not night and day either) and highs still a bit of digital harshness. I will follow your recommendations ... B0bb, I will remove that yellow 100nf and try the things suggested in the i / v stage.
I have been thinking after getting to solve some problems, to make a mod (super-mod anti-digital hardness), that I like and that tube lovers may like, an i / v stage based on vacuum tubes, maybe the variety of brands can better adjust the sound to the tastes of each user more easily, would be a very versatile mod, also there is space within our 004 to put an additional circuit, it would be necessary to design a specific pcb and add a small transformer. 
Maybe some starting points:
https://hq-audio.net/products/pcb-pure-tube-i-v/
https://www.tubecad.com/2011/03/blog0203.htm
A lot of work ¿? Does this dac really deserve it?
Once the design is optimized it should not be too expensive an investment I think


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> Measure the DC voltage in the XLR pins and the RCA outs.
> If any of the measurements exceed 5mV, consider adjustments.
> 
> This is mandatory if your playback chain is DC coupled all the way aka no signal coupling caps.


Thank you sir! Do you recall which pot adjusts which output? You mentioned adjusting the XLR's first


----------



## ESL57

fmzip said:


> Thank you sir! Do you recall which pot adjusts which output? You mentioned adjusting the XLR's first


In this photo the yellow zone is the offset adjustment of the left channel balanced and the white unbalanced and the red and green equal in the right channel, a period of thermal stability of 15 min is good to wait for the adjustment and as B0bb says: first adjust them balanced. But first of all I would verify that the analog power rails are exactly balanced, GEN1 + 15.5v and -15.5v.


----------



## fmzip (Mar 8, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> In this photo the yellow zone is the offset adjustment of the left channel balanced and the white unbalanced and the red and green equal in the right channel, a period of thermal stability of 15 min is good to wait for the adjustment and as B0bb says: first adjust them balanced. But first of all I would verify that the analog power rails are exactly balanced, GEN1 + 15.5v and -15.5v.


Thank you! I am a novice at all this and appreciate  the exact details.

Can you explain where to measure these rails please? Do I take the measurements in the red area, assuming that's the op amps?  I see from @b0bb post that the grey pots are for these adjustments, is my board a Gen1?


----------



## ESL57 (Mar 8, 2021)

fmzip said:


> Thank you! I am a novice at all this and appreciate  the exact details.
> 
> Can you explain where to measure these rails please? Do I take the measurements in the red area, assuming that's the op amps?  I see from @b0bb post that the grey pots are for these adjustments, is my





fmzip said:


> Thank you! I am a novice at all this and appreciate  the exact details.
> 
> Can you explain where to measure these rails please? Do I take the measurements in the red area, assuming that's the op amps?  I see from @b0bb post that the grey pots are for these adjustments, is my board a Gen1?


That not are op amps, they are dual transistors, because of the size of the heatsinks I think your pcb is GEN2. Down here my "GEN0"


----------



## fmzip (Mar 8, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> That not are op amps, they are dual transistors, because of the size of the heatsinks I think your pcb is GEN2. Down here my "GEN0"


Thank you. I revised my image to match yours. Now the only question remains, what should I dial in my voltage to be at +15.5/-15.5v? I'll post my findings this evening.


----------



## fmzip (Mar 8, 2021)

@ESL57 @b0bb I measure -15.46 +15.46, do I need to get that to 15.50? Needed a bit of adjustment on the xlrs thanks for the tips!

Those black pots need to be replaced for something more robust


----------



## b0bb (Mar 8, 2021)

fmzip said:


> @ESL57 @b0bb I measure -15.46 +15.46, do I need to get that to 15.50? Needed a bit of adjustment on the xlrs thanks for the tips!
> 
> Those black pots need to be replaced for something more robust


That is fine getting to 15.46.


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Thank you sir! Do you recall which pot adjusts which output? You mentioned adjusting the XLR's first


@ESL57 covered those.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 8, 2021)

dna301 said:


> b0bb, 5ohm value is ok with 950x?


That will work.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 8, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> https://hq-audio.net/products/pcb-pure-tube-i-v/
> https://www.tubecad.com/2011/03/blog0203.htm
> A lot of work ¿? Does this dac really deserve it?
> Once the design is optimized it should not be too expensive an investment I think


The other way around, the designs mentioned not good enough for use with the 004, output impedance of the tube is way too high to drive the passive LPF.
LPF on 004 expects to be driven from a very low impedance source.

If you are looking for additional smoothness replace the Accusilicon AS-318B with the Crystek CCHD-950X

Check with @fmzip who has made the switch, I think @fmzip gave away the AS-318B after trying the CCHD-950X
Also try replacing the noise filter caps used by the TPS7A47 and LT1763 regulators with film caps, this reduces harshness due to the fridge magnets* LKS used

*the horrid ceramic caps LKS installed on the board, make good fridge magnets if you grind them up, add it to a latex base and magnetize it.


----------



## fmzip

@b0bb when you swapped out the SMT pots for the 1240W's, did you epoxy them to the board or is it solid enough with the three solder joints?


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> @b0bb when you swapped out the SMT pots for the 1240W's, did you epoxy them to the board or is it solid enough with the three solder joints?


No epoxy, just soldered it on.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 8, 2021)

szrurs03 said:


> hello bob
> Can these resistors be fitted for 9028pro.(5ohm)VSMP Z-Foil


Check your board, not sure what LKS used on the 9028, if it is close enough like within 10-15 ohms you could try it.


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> The other way around, the designs mentioned not good enough for use with the 004, output impedance of the tube is way too high to drive the passive LPF.
> 
> If you are looking for additional smoothness replace the Accusilicon AS-318B with the Crystek CCHD-950X
> 
> ...


@ESL57, I had the Accusilicon for awhile, the Crystek that B0bb suggested is much smoother. I will not go back to the Accusilicon.


----------



## fmzip

@b0bb, I have some 150uf 30v 109D's in my stockroom but they are +/-20%. Would this be an acceptable upgrade to the tantalum yellow bead caps?


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> @b0bb, I have some 150uf 30v 109D's in my stockroom but they are +/-20%. Would this be an acceptable upgrade to the tantalum yellow bead caps?


Yes provided it was made recently


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> This thread is getting more and more interesting, this dac gives a lot of play for the enjoyment of the changes. Just remember that my tests were always aimed at solving the problem of random noise in DSD files recorded with low level, my 004 is not GEN1, better call it GEN0 (my pcb is different). Swap Vcom's Epcos capacitor for polymer-aluminum to hear it, definitely not the way to go, sure to have more current leakage than other types like wet tantalum, silicon or Teflon capacitors (these last 2 only manufactured at low capacitances). My goals are the same as most of you, low frequencies are not all the best (improve the analog power supply and it was not night and day either) and highs still a bit of digital harshness. I will follow your recommendations ... B0bb, I will remove that yellow 100nf and try the things suggested in the i / v stage.
> I have been thinking after getting to solve some problems, to make a mod (super-mod anti-digital hardness), that I like and that tube lovers may like, an i / v stage based on vacuum tubes, maybe the variety of brands can better adjust the sound to the tastes of each user more easily, would be a very versatile mod, also there is space within our 004 to put an additional circuit, it would be necessary to design a specific pcb and add a small transformer.
> Maybe some starting points:
> https://hq-audio.net/products/pcb-pure-tube-i-v/
> ...


Hi ESL57,
Please try a isolation transformer with screening for the power supply of the DAC. 
Disconnect the PS PE ( earth) from the DAC ( ONLY IF YOU USE A ISOLATION TRANSFORMER!!!!!!!! )
Connect the DAC housing ( case) the Amplifier case.
Try a USB reclocker / isolator.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> The other way around, the designs mentioned not good enough for use with the 004, output impedance of the tube is way too high to drive the passive LPF.
> LPF on 004 expects to be driven from a very low impedance source.
> 
> If you are looking for additional smoothness replace the Accusilicon AS-318B with the Crystek CCHD-950X
> ...


Yes, I really would like to try the Crystek 950x, I did not find what I was looking for with this Accusilicon even after 200 hours of burning. But I see that the 950x version that you all installed is the 25ppm version, if so, it is out of stock in the main providers, waiting for availability or this is similar.¿?.
CCHD-950X-25-100 , 25ppm 15ma
CVHD-950X-100 , 20ppm 25ma
https://www.digikey.es/products/es?keywords=CCHD-950X-25-100  (out of stock)
https://www.digikey.es/products/es?keywords=CVHD-950X-100 (in stock)


----------



## fmzip (Mar 9, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Yes provided it was made recently



You mention this because of the soldering concerns/part exploding mentioned previously, correct? I wouldn't be soldering it in, I'd leave it to a skilled technician this go around.

Maybe as a failsafe, I can cover the entire board with an ESD bag and pop a hole out to solder this location...


----------



## fmzip

ESL57 said:


> Yes, I really would like to try the Crystek 950x, I did not find what I was looking for with this Accusilicon even after 200 hours of burning. But I see that the 950x version that you all installed is the 25ppm version, if so, it is out of stock in the main providers, waiting for availability or this is similar.¿?.
> CCHD-950X-25-100 , 25ppm 15ma
> CVHD-950X-100 , 20ppm 25ma
> https://www.digikey.es/products/es?keywords=CCHD-950X-25-100  (out of stock)
> https://www.digikey.es/products/es?keywords=CVHD-950X-100 (in stock)


crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/vcxo/CVHD-950.pdf
https://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/clock/CCHD-950.pdf

Here's the pdf's @b0bb


----------



## ESL57 (Mar 9, 2021)

fmzip said:


> crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/vcxo/CVHD-950.pdf
> https://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/clock/CCHD-950.pdf
> 
> Aquí está el pdf [USER = 408594] @ b0bb [/ USER]


CVHD-950x is identical in electrical characteristics and precision to the CCHD-950x only that one says "CMOS" and the other "HCMOS", even crystek put the same graphics in one and the other datasheet, I don't know if there will be sonic differences.
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/94/CVHD-950-182272.pdf
The difference: it seems that the CVHD has voltage control on pin 1 and the CCHD on pin 1 is not connected .... compatible?
I think so, because Accusilicon AS-318B also pin 1 is on-off, any suggestions?


----------



## fmzip

ESL57 said:


> CVHD-950x is identical in electrical characteristics and precision to the CCHD-950x only that one says "CMOS" and the other "HCMOS", even crystek put the same graphics in one and the other datasheet, I don't know if there will be sonic differences.
> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/94/CVHD-950-182272.pdf
> The difference: it seems that the CVHD has voltage control on pin 1 and the CCHD on pin 1 is not connected .... compatible?
> I think not


I don't think it's compatible either but I am not an engineer either


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Hi ESL57,
> Please try a isolation transformer with screening for the power supply of the DAC.
> Disconnect the PS PE ( earth) from the DAC ( ONLY IF YOU USE A ISOLATION TRANSFORMER!!!!!!!! )
> Connect the DAC housing ( case) the Amplifier case.
> Try a USB reclocker / isolator.


Thanks for your suggestions, after many months of tests and countless changes and improvements of electronic components, my conclusion is that the problem is still inside the LKS, eliminate Amanero and use Gustard U16 without success, Ifi I-usb power, Ifi i-purifier, external grounded, ungrounded, direct ground to the chassis and not to the chassis, transformers outside the chassis, tested in other friends' houses the same (different electrical installation), different PCs and software, some DSD albums are noisy and in other of my dacs they are not. For example:
"Amber Rubarth - Sessions from the 17th Ward, DSD128", this is one I use to see if I can improve noise or interference. Other DSD albums are less delicate and have no noise.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 9, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> CVHD-950x is identical in electrical characteristics and precision to the CCHD-950x only that one says "CMOS" and the other "HCMOS", even crystek put the same graphics in one and the other datasheet, I don't know if there will be sonic differences.
> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/94/CVHD-950-182272.pdf
> The difference: it seems that the CVHD has voltage control on pin 1 and the CCHD on pin 1 is not connected .... compatible?
> I think so, because Accusilicon AS-318B also pin 1 is on-off, any suggestions?


CVHD-950 is a Voltage Controlled XO,  any noise pickup on that pin strong enough to raise the voltage causes a shift in the output frequency.

Should not be used for the 004.

CCHD-950X is out of stock at the major suppliers.
You could try the SIT-5357 but it is 2-2.5x the cost and much more difficult to solder onto the board.


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> You mention this because of the soldering concerns/part exploding mentioned previously, correct? I wouldn't be soldering it in, I'd leave it to a skilled technician this go around.
> 
> Maybe as a failsafe, I can cover the entire board with an ESD bag and pop a hole out to solder this location...


This happens on old caps where the rubber seal may have shrunk as it aged, you will be ok with a cap made in the last 3-4 years, check the datecodes on the caps you intend to use.

ESD bag will not help much if the electrolyte touches the board, will eat the copper clean off the board, does to same to skin.


----------



## fmzip (Mar 9, 2021)

b0bb said:


> This happens on old caps where the rubber seal may have shrunk as it aged, you will be ok with a cap made in the last 3-4 years, check the datecodes on the caps you intend to use.
> 
> ESD bag will not help much if the electrolyte touches the board, will eat the copper clean off the board, does to same to skin.


@b0bb 

I have these in new date codes, can I use any/all/none of these choices:
109D107X0025F2 100uF 25V 20% (7.92 X 20.22mm) Axial 4 Ohm​109D157X0030F2 150uF 30V 20% (7.92 X 20.22mm) Axial 2.5 Ohm​109D277X0050T2 270uF 50V 20% (10.31 X 23.4mm) Axial 1.8 Ohm​109D567X9025T2 560uF 25V 10% (10.31 X 23.4mm) Axial 1.8 Ohm​109D337X0030T2 330uF 30V 20% (10.31 X 23.4mm) Axial 1.8 Ohm​109D107X0060F0 100uF 60V 20% (7.14 X 16.28mm) Axial 2.5 Ohm​109D477X9030T2 470uF 30V 10% (10.31 X 23.4mm) Axial 1.8 Ohm​


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> @b0bb
> 
> I have these in new date codes, can I use any/all/none of these choices:
> 109D107X0025F2 100uF 25V 20% (7.92 X 20.22mm) Axial 4 Ohm​109D157X0030F2 150uF 30V 20% (7.92 X 20.22mm) Axial 2.5 Ohm​109D277X0050T2 270uF 50V 20% (10.31 X 23.4mm) Axial 1.8 Ohm​109D567X9025T2 560uF 25V 10% (10.31 X 23.4mm) Axial 1.8 Ohm​109D337X0030T2 330uF 30V 20% (10.31 X 23.4mm) Axial 1.8 Ohm​109D107X0060F0 100uF 60V 20% (7.14 X 16.28mm) Axial 2.5 Ohm​109D477X9030T2 470uF 30V 10% (10.31 X 23.4mm) Axial 1.8 Ohm​


109D157X0030F2 150uF 30V 20% (7.92 X 20.22mm) Axial 2.5 Ohm​


----------



## oldearwax

ESL57 said:


> I have been thinking after getting to solve some problems, to make a mod (super-mod anti-digital hardness), that I like and that tube lovers may like, an i / v stage based on vacuum tubes, maybe the variety of brands can better adjust the sound to the tastes of each user more easily, would be a very versatile mod, also there is space within our 004 to put an additional circuit, it would be necessary to design a specific pcb and add a small transformer.
> Maybe some starting points:
> https://hq-audio.net/products/pcb-pure-tube-i-v/
> https://www.tubecad.com/2011/03/blog0203.htm
> ...


Both  tube-i-v have 1uF coupling cap in the  cathode follower stage. 
I would avoid HV coupling cap in tube audio, unless you want to spend  $$ on V-cap (1uF US$ 459 each).
Cathode follower has output impedance = 1/gm. For 6DJ8, it is about 80 Ohm.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 11, 2021)

oldearwax said:


> Cathode follower has output impedance = 1/gm. For 6DJ8, it is about 80 Ohm.


6DJ8 cathode follower has 80 ohm output impedance, about 8x too high.

Below is the calculation of the output impedance of the 004 emitter follower stage on the DAC
Emitter follower is formally as a common collector amplifier





Values for the 004
RE  = 15 ohms
R1 = 4.7k (lower bias chain resistor)
R2 = 2.55k (upper bias chain resistor)
β = 50 From MJE171 datasheet
Ie = 29mA (output stage bias current)
r'e = 25mV/Ie = 25mV/29mA = 0.86ohm (small signal AC resistance)

Zout = 15// (0.86 + (4.7k//2.55k)/(50 + 1)) = 10.3 ohms

6DJ8 cathode follower has 80 ohm output impedance, this is 7.77x too high. (80 ohm vs 10.3 ohms)

Additional info here
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/amplifier/common-collector-amplifier.html


Note this is simplified analysis, LKS used a complementary PNP/NPN output, the above are the numbers for a Class-B biased output stage.
In the case of Class-A both halves are running in parallel, reducing Zout to very much below 10ohms


----------



## b0bb (Mar 10, 2021)

On a side note, the I/V output stage is set for Pure Class A operation.

29mA is almost exactly half of the full scale output current of the mono mode 9038Pro of 60mA

The output stage transistors (almost) never turn off.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> For example:
> "Amber Rubarth - Sessions from the 17th Ward, DSD128", this is one I use to see if I can improve noise or interference. Other DSD albums are less delicate and have no noise.


I just picked up the DSD128 version, did not notice any burst of noise or any unusual noise issues in any of the tracks.
I used the HD800 headphones for this.
Overall a very well done recording, very quiet background.

Can you elaborate on which track and time index where  you had the problem ?


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> I just picked up the DSD128 version, did not notice any burst of noise or any unusual noise issues in any of the tracks.
> I used the HD800 headphones for this.
> Overall a very well done recording, very quiet background.
> 
> Can you elaborate on which track and time index where  you had the problem ?


Thanks for trying it. It was logical that in your dac you would not notice it, these random noises from that album only come out of my 3 dacs in this LKS, they are noises that if you lower the volume of the LKS they are very present, I made a recording of them and Xoverman listened to it, something similar to the noise of leaks from a dry decoupling capacitor in a tube amplifier, random noises and crackles, and it does not matter to set DPLL15 to maximum and this works, because if you lower the DPLL too much, a loud blowing noise enters when the signal is unblocked, asking to raise the DPLL level higher. Is it possible to send an attached audio file? I think these files are not accepted directly.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> Is it possible to send an attached audio file? I think these files are not accepted directly.


Compress the file using pkzip or equivalent utility and upload it as an attachment.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> 6DJ cathode follower has 80 ohm output impedance, about 8x too high.
> 
> Below is the calculation of the output impedance of the 004 emitter follower stage on the DAC
> Emitter follower is formally as a common collector amplifier
> ...


If I think that an impedance adapter transformer would be necessary, not even using tubes with low impedance like 6as7 or 6080 can handle those 10ohm.
Here they tested results with this:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/306118-dac-es9038-pro-gr-2-a-11.html


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Compress the file using pkzip or equivalent utility and upload it as an attachment.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> If I think that an impedance adapter transformer would be necessary, not even using tubes with low impedance like 6as7 or 6080 can handle those 10ohm.
> Here they tested results with this:
> https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/306118-dac-es9038-pro-gr-2-a-11.html


Correct.

Adding an interstage coupling transformer adds cost and complicates an already complex situation. 

If you want to experiment with tubes/valves pick up the diy 9038 DAC boards like the one above
Twistedpear Audio also makes the Buffalo which is a standalone DAC minus I/V


----------



## b0bb (Mar 10, 2021)

@ESL57 I listened to the problem audiofile you attached.

There was a burst of noise followed by a click, this pattern repeats.
It might be the DPLL not being able to maintain a stable lock.

Check your I2S cables and connector on the 004 to see if anything got broken.

Also check the I2S receiver chip and the  74xxx244 line drivers

The chip handling I2S and USB data is the left one in the picture.
(I am in the process of swapping these out for the 74ALVC244)


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> [USER = 535147] @ ESL57 [/ USER] Escuché el archivo de audio del problema que adjuntaste.
> 
> Hubo un estallido de ruido seguido de un clic, este patrón se repite.
> Puede ser que el DPLL no pueda mantener un bloqueo estable.
> ...


Bobb all digital inputs go through those 2 non-inverting buffers chip? I ask this because I sent through all the inputs that supported native DSD, and through coax inpunt the same files but packed DoP and the noises were exactly the same, there was no success.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> Bobb all digital inputs go through those 2 non-inverting buffers chip? I


Yes, SPDIF goes thru the chip on the right


----------



## b0bb

3 minor mods to SU-6.

Made SU-6 much smoother and organic, an unexpected surprise.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/singxer-su-6.902272/page-30#post-16233262


----------



## ti5002000

b0bb
 Did you find ainy significant improvements when switching to the Belleson regulator?


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> It depends of your preference, for something smoother try a polystyrene cap, if you prefer a brighter and sharper presentation try a Corning CGW Glass Cap.



Thanks.  I meant to ask, what value are they?

I prefer smoother, do you have any high quality polystyrene caps in mind that would fit in that location?


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> Thanks.  I meant to ask, what value are they?
> 
> I prefer smoother, do you have any high quality polystyrene caps in mind that would fit in that location?


Try Ebay
100pF on Gen 1, 200pF on Gen2, connect 2 100pF caps in parallel.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/293630525981


----------



## b0bb

ti5002000 said:


> b0bb
> Did you find ainy significant improvements when switching to the Belleson regulator?


Incremental improvement, clearer upper midrange and soundstage.
You will not see significant improvement until the input and output caps are upgraded.


----------



## Xoverman (Mar 13, 2021)

b0bb said:


> 3 minor mods to SU-6.
> 
> Made SU-6 much smoother and organic, an unexpected surprise.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/singxer-su-6.902272/page-30#post-16233262


Yes, I had the same results  
Most of it comes from the polymer capacitors.


----------



## Xoverman

So it's only when you use DSD? 
You are using the volume of the 004 ?
There is no preamp. The 004 is directly connected to the power amp. ?
Noise on both channels when volume is very low? 
Noise is input independent !
Noise on all outputs ( R/L , RCA / XLR ) ?
Next try the independent  +/- legs off the XLR agenst GND. Is the noise one all 4 amp's ( PINS) or just on one.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 13, 2021)

Rebuilt LKS Amanero interface

Swapped 22/24MHz clocks for 45/49MHz, reduced jitter by 50% (3dB). CCHD957 family lowest phase noise around 45-49MHz, pickup addditional 2dB of noise reduction.
12MHz 10ppm MEMS XO for USB microcontroller, to improve the USB receive performance
Replace regulators : ADP151 (PSRR: 70dB, 200mA 9 μVRMS noise) with TI TPS7A20xx (PSRR: 95 dB, 300mA, 7 μVRMS noise )
Replace 4.7uF ceramic regulator input filter cap with 47uF Tantalum Polymer for better noise filtering
Tantalum Nitride resistors for I2S Data, Bit Clock, Frame Clock/DSD data lines
Tantalum Nitride coupling resistors for XOs
Tantalum Nitride USB signal termination resistors
Silicon RF cap (10pF,1%) for USB PLL filter
Resistors are the blue rectangles







Board prior to mod


----------



## ESL57 (Mar 13, 2021)

b0bb said:


> CVHD-950 is a Voltage Controlled XO,  any noise pickup on that pin strong enough to raise the voltage causes a shift in the output frequency.
> 
> Should not be used for the 004.
> 
> ...


This product code is the correct one from SIT5357 clock :
https://www.digikey.es/product-deta...473-SIT5357AE-FQ-33N0-100-000000F-ND/12033037
If this is it, it is also out of stock in the usual sites
Also I will change the 74HC244 of origin for the suggested ones and some other capacitor in the regulators.


----------



## ESL57 (Mar 13, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> So it's only when you use DSD?
> You are using the volume of the 004 ?
> There is no preamp. The 004 is directly connected to the power amp. ?
> Noise on both channels when volume is very low?
> ...


So it's only when you use DSD?..........Yes, only with DSD, but with PCM they are not audible but with an oscilloscope they can be seen very very weak
You are using the volume of the 004 ?........ Not always at 0db or bypass mode, I have a preamp
There is no preamp. The 004 is directly connected to the power amp. ?........... I check in diferents preamps
Noise on both channels when volume is very low? .......Random noises on the 2 channels, they never repeat in time if you play them different times comparing them. Noises spoil the listening in these files recorded with little level, they are audible at 0db or byppas mode (maximun)
Noise is input independent ! ....Yes
Noise on all outputs ( R/L , RCA / XLR ) ?..... Yes, They are already in the resistors i / v
Next try the independent +/- legs off the XLR agenst GND. Is the noise one all 4 amp's ( PINS) or just on one....... I would have to see it again, I think I remember that I put the oscilloscope on the 4x  68.1ohm resistors and the noises were already there.
I tried the same resistors as your 3w high thermal stability and less ohm and with others of more ohm, I only managed to decrease and increase the gain respectively, with 75ohm the noises are a little more masked.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 13, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> This product code is the correct one from SIT5357 clock :
> https://www.digikey.es/product-deta...473-SIT5357AE-FQ-33N0-100-000000F-ND/12033037
> If this is it, it is also out of stock in the usual sites
> Also I will change the 74HC244 of origin for the suggested ones and some other capacitor in the regulators.


Get it from Mouser
https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/SiTime/SiT5357AI-FQ-33N0-100000000X?qs=gTYE2QTfZfSK84/PcXFFEA==

The 74ALVC244 from Nexperia/NXP is the one in the photo.
It has special signal conditioning at the inputs (Schmitt Triggers), this reduces jitter and hopefully and potential DPLL lock issues.
Neither TI or ON mention this in their datasheets, so get the specific one from Nexperia
https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/Nexperia/74ALVC244D118?qs=P62ublwmbi8nefVp98M2BQ==

There are a lot of diffrences between the logic families (HC, AC, LVC, LVT, ALVC etc) do not substitute the ALVC.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> @ESL57 I listened to the problem audiofile you attached.
> 
> There was a burst of noise followed by a click, this pattern repeats.
> It might be the DPLL not being able to maintain a stable lock.
> ...


b0bb,
Buffers in my 004 look different.
Should it be replaced?


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> So it's only when you use DSD?..........Yes, only with DSD, but with PCM they are not audible but with an oscilloscope they can be seen very very weak
> You are using the volume of the 004 ?........ Not always at 0db or bypass mode, I have a preamp
> There is no preamp. The 004 is directly connected to the power amp. ?........... I check in diferents preamps
> Noise on both channels when volume is very low? .......Random noises on the 2 channels, they never repeat in time if you play them different times comparing them. Noises spoil the listening in these files recorded with little level, they are audible at 0db or byppas mode (maximun)
> ...


What operating system software and player are you using to send DSD to the DAC?
004 is quite fussy about the quality of the DSD sent to it.

Have you tried HQPlayer ? 
Time limited demo is free, available for Linux/Windows/Mac.

Try it with Amanero, no driver needed for Linux/MAC, ASIO driver needed for Windows.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 13, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> b0bb,
> Buffers in my 004 look different.
> Should it be replaced?


Post a picture, I think yours was 74AC244D, lower current output version of the 74HC244D.
74ALVC has higher current output.

74ALVC244 has better noise tolerance and better drive capability.
The propagation delay is 3X better than the 74AC244

74AC244 is used so that cheaper parts like the ceramic caps below can be used to save on manufacturing cost.

I think you should eliminate the software player as possible cause before modifying the hardware.

If you have the 74AC244, and want to use the 74ALVC244 the ceramic cap in the red squares have to be replaced with Polymer caps.
I use the 820uF Nichicon FP-RNL


----------



## piaseczek (Mar 13, 2021)

AC244 ON CPAE0805 - Google knows nothing about it...


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> AC244 ON CPAE0805 - Google knows nothing about it...


AC244 is the partnumber, the other might a batch or manufacturing tracking identifier


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Post a picture, I think yours was 74AC244D, lower current output version of the 74HC244D.
> 74ALVC has higher current output.
> 
> I think you should eliminate the software player as possible cause before modifying the hardware.
> ...



Thank you, it looks like an another great mod as important as replacing the galvanic isolator.

What software player do you recommend? 
I am using the Daphile with the RT kernel.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 13, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> Thank you, it looks like an another great mod as important as replacing the galvanic isolator.
> 
> What software player do you recommend?
> I am using the Daphile with the RT kernel.


If you are looking for a  better playback  setup than Daphile,  take a look at Roon or HQplayer.

The main playback/processing engine is separated from the audio endpoint.
It does not need to compete for resources with the playback engine
Audio endpoint is solely responsible for delivering data to the DAC, most importantly the buffering and flow control of that data.


Flow control when properly implemented, eliminates the audio dropout issues and popping noises.
This reduces jitter of the audio feed going into the DAC.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> If you are looking for a  better playback  setup than Daphile,  take a look at Roon or HQplayer.
> 
> The main playback/processing engine is separated from the audio endpoint.
> It does not need to compete for resources with the playback engine
> ...



When using the USB input I don't have any problems with the dropouts, I am using the lowest DPLL setting.

Thank you, I will take a look at Roon.

My daphile (squeezelite) is configured similar to:
https://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/p/in-part-3-of-audio-engine-series-id.html


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> What operating system software and player are you using to send DSD to the DAC?
> 004 is quite fussy about the quality of the DSD sent to it.
> 
> Have you tried HQPlayer ?
> ...


Bobb that was my starting point, discarding that the source of the noises was the USB (Amanero with the power supply the same as yours) then Gustard u16 the same, or the playback software, I tried with HQplayer, Foobar2000, Vcl amp, etc, multiple changes of desktop pc, laptop (with battery only), windows 10, windows7 both 32 and 64 bit versions. Something I don't understand is that if the noises are occurring, if you turn off the LKS and turn it on again the sound clears for a few seconds (quite a few) and then they come back again. 
Also remember that there were users This first version of LKS004 (17-04 firmware) that reported this same problem here, I think I remember someone from Australia, which makes me think that something was corrected in later versions. I also tried to turn on without connecting the connector of the front display / keyboard module, the dac continues to work anyway, it will keep the setting parameters the same, only that they cannot be seen or changed as is logical, this module is not the cause either. Another user would surely have thrown away this dac, for me it became a fun / entertainment and a challenge to be able to find the cause.


----------



## b0bb (Mar 13, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Bobb that was my starting point, discarding that the source of the noises was the USB (Amanero with the power supply the same as yours) then Gustard u16 the same, or the playback software, I tried with HQplayer, Foobar2000, Vcl amp, etc, multiple changes of desktop pc, laptop (with battery only), windows 10, windows7 both 32 and 64 bit versions. Something I don't understand is that if the noises are occurring, if you turn off the LKS and turn it on again the sound clears for a few seconds (quite a few) and then they come back again.
> Also remember that there were users This first version of LKS004 (17-04 firmware) that reported this same problem here, I think I remember someone from Australia, which makes me think that something was corrected in later versions. I also tried to turn on without connecting the connector of the front display / keyboard module, the dac continues to work anyway, it will keep the setting parameters the same, only that they cannot be seen or changed as is logical, this module is not the cause either. Another user would surely have thrown away this dac, for me it became a fun / entertainment and a challenge to be able to find the cause.


Have you tried to use a low DSD rate, if not lock it down to DSD64 and see what happens, check the display shows DSD64.
It is worth checking this again to confirm what DSD rate this problem is heard.

Measure the voltage output of the LT1763's supplying the 9038, nominal voltage output is 1.2V, nominal input voltage is 5V
Do this at cold start where you are not hearing the noise, repeat the measurement when you hear the noise.

Clean up the soldering mess, there is flux residue everywhere,  especially around the I/V input and XO.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Have you tried to use a low DSD rate, if not lock it down to DSD64 and see what happens, check the display shows DSD64.
> It is worth checking this again to confirm what DSD rate this problem is heard.
> 
> Measure the voltage output of the LT1763's supplying the 9038, nominal voltage output is 1.2V, nominal input voltage is 5V
> ...


Thanks Bobb, I already have new work to do on my diabolical toy, if I don't get it sometime, I'll finally have to call an exorcist, I still have psychophonies of some spirit inside (LOL).


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Thanks Bobb, I already have new work to do on my diabolical toy, if I don't get it sometime, I'll finally have to call an exorcist, I still have psychophonies of some spirit inside (LOL).


If the noise is present on all 4 channels then the problem has to be in front of the DAC chips. 
Digital signal chain, or as  B0bb pointed out the PLL. Or noise on the clock power supply.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Yes.
> 
> In order to avoid cutting the PCB trace, the resistors require special placement.
> 
> ...



Xoverman,
Are you going to add the 22ohm resistor between the Vcom cap and the analog? 
If yes please let us know how to do it in the Gen2 units


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> If the noise is present on all 4 channels then the problem has to be in front of the DAC chips.
> Digital signal chain, or as  B0bb pointed out the PLL. Or noise on the clock power supply.


Yes,I think the solution has to be very close and in this area of the regulators close to 9038 and the clock, remember that I already changed all the lm317 for low noise modules, schottky diodes in all the rectification, I remember someone asking Jinbo about the need to update the firmware to the version of 18-08 and said that it was not necessary, I do not think this is but I am no longer certain of anything.


----------



## Xoverman

piaseczek said:


> Xoverman,
> Are you going to add the 22ohm resistor between the Vcom cap and the analog?
> If yes please let us know how to do it in the Gen2 units


I'm really thinking about it.

@b0bb.   Can you please post a picture of the position of all 4 resistors. In close up.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> I'm really thinking about it.
> 
> @b0bb.   Can you please post a picture of the position of all 4 resistors. In close up.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb,
when you replaced the FPCAPs around the es9038 to larger ones, did you remove the mkp/mkt bypasses?


----------



## b0bb (Mar 15, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> ... did you remove the mkp/mkt bypasses?


No.
Is there a reason why you think it needs to be removed ?


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> No.
> Is there a reason why you think it needs to be removed ?





I don't know whether it should be removed or not, I am not an expert like you.
Bypassing is a bit controvercial:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/307187-bypass-capacitor-theory-post5115988.html


----------



## b0bb (Mar 16, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> I don't know whether it should be removed or not, I am not an expert like you.
> Bypassing is a bit controvercial:
> https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/307187-bypass-capacitor-theory-post5115988.html


The approach LKS took with decoupling is correct, I am leaving things as-is.

Those kinds of discussions are all too common on diyaudio.
If you have the expertise and equipment to validate which of the competing claims are actually true , give it a try.


----------



## fmzip (Mar 17, 2021)

*Final* mods completed

Wet Tantalum caps and foil pots & resistors.


----------



## MartinWT

How are you finding it?  I have just received my Vishay trimmers, still waiting for the red WIMAs and polystyrene bypass caps.


----------



## fmzip

MartinWT said:


> How are you finding it?  I have just received my Vishay trimmers, still waiting for the red WIMAs and polystyrene bypass caps.


Powering it up very soon...


----------



## b0bb (Mar 17, 2021)

@fmzip do you know who makes the SU2's slave clocks, the brand does not show up on search or the normal distributors.
A inquiry to your suppliers would be most helpful


----------



## fmzip

b0bb said:


> @fmzip do you know makes the SU2's slave clocks, the brand does not show up on search or the normal distributors.
> A inquiry to your suppliers would be most helpful


I’ll have a look on Silcon Expert, a software platform we subscribe to at the office tomorrow to see what I can find


----------



## wersuss

fmzip said:


> *Final* mods completed
> 
> Wet Tantalum caps and foil pots & resistors.


What does the trimmers add? Where to measure them?


----------



## fmzip (Mar 18, 2021)

@b0bb Here's the details on the parts from my engineering dept. Please let me know your thoughts on if they should/could be replaced.

_They are made by Taitien. Digikey carries them. They come in two different sizes. One is the OY series and one is the OX series.

The part numbers are *OY*EUDCJANF-45.158400 or *OX*EUDCJANF-45.158400 and *OY*EUDLJANF-49.152000 or *OX*EUDLJANF-49.152000,
depending on the size you need._


----------



## fmzip

wersuss said:


> What does the trimmers add? Where to measure them?


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...s-double-impact.840938/page-223#post-16209848
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...s-double-impact.840938/page-227#post-16222142
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...s-double-impact.840938/page-227#post-16221367


----------



## b0bb (Mar 19, 2021)

fmzip said:


> @b0bb Here's the details on the parts from my engineering dept. Please let me know your thoughts on if they should/could be replaced.
> 
> _They are made by Taitien. Digikey carries them. They come in two different sizes. One is the OY series and one is the OX series.
> 
> ...


Thanks.

Taitien has a partnumber decoder on their website, the partnumber of the XOs are VTEMACJ-xxx

This is consistent with the TEMACJ designation on the case.

7mm x 5mm footprint size,  6 connection pads, 3.3V, CMOS output
This is the VT-M part: https://www.taitien.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/XO-0052-VT-MCMOS-Type.pdf


Voltage controlled XO, the control voltage is derived from the difference in the reference frequency  and the current output frequency of the slave
Reference is either from the onboard SU2 reference crystals or the 10MHz external reference.

Performance is average, close in phasenoise is about 5.6x (15dB) worse @100Hz compared to the CCHD957 for a 50Mhz operating frequency
(-85dBc/Hz vs -100 dBc/Hz)


----------



## fmzip (Mar 19, 2021)

Powered on my unit first time after the final mods.

My greatest fear became a reality, DEAD, nothing, NADA. After a few hundred superlatives my wife came up stairs and that’s when I noticed, forgot to plug in one of the power connectors on the PCB

Sigh of relief, warming it up to adjust the pots 😳


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Have you tried to use a low DSD rate, if not lock it down to DSD64 and see what happens, check the display shows DSD64.
> It is worth checking this again to confirm what DSD rate this problem is heard.
> 
> Measure the voltage output of the LT1763's supplying the 9038, nominal voltage output is 1.2V, nominal input voltage is 5V
> ...


No matter the rate of DSD, since DSD64 (the file that I attached was DSD64) are already present, you just have to choose the appropriate low-level recording file to hear the noises more easily. 
How could I make a DSD file without audio or very low level of pure tone for testing? can it be done by software or just by a DSD recorder machine?
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/282151-dsd-recording-software-etc.html
I have measured the output voltages of these adjustable version LT regulators, it is in the lower voltage that this chip works: in pin 1: 1.22v and in the input, pin 8: 3.8v, unfortunately I only have an old 20Mhz oscilloscope operating in right now, but at 0.2us on the time base and maximum sensitivity, I see fixed high frequency noise on pin 1, can it be normal? , looking for a better bandwidth of 200 or 300Mhz to see clearly what happens. More components are on the way to change and test in the meantime. Also clean the flux that I put myself in my multiple changes and tests and as expected for my misfortune it is just as noisy as before. If this were finally the fault of the firmware I would shoot myself, although I still enjoy this game and hope to nail the problem.


----------



## dna301

fmzip said:


> Powered on my unit first time after the final mods.
> 
> My greatest fear became a reality, DEAD, nothing, NADA. After a few hundred superlatives my wife came up stairs and that’s when I noticed, forgot to plug in one of the power connectors on the PCB
> 
> Sigh of relief, warming it up to adjust the pots 😳


@fmzip   Please tell us your impressions! waiting eagerly. My parts arecoming..


----------



## b0bb (Mar 20, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> I have measured the output voltages of these adjustable version LT regulators, it is in the lower voltage that this chip works: in pin 1: 1.22v and in the input, pin 8: 3.8v, unfortunately I only have an old 20Mhz oscilloscope operating in right now, but at 0.2us on the time base and maximum sensitivity, I see fixed high frequency noise on pin 1, can it be normal? , looking for a better bandwidth of 200 or 300Mhz to see clearly what happens.


pin8 is the LT regulator voltage input, 3.8V too low expected value is 5V.
Make sure your scope probe is properly grounded, it must be attached to the ground pins of the chip, the noise could be caused by improper grounding.

The other tps7a47 regulator supplies 3.3V to the 9038, it will not function properly with a 3.8V input, your upstream regulator supplying the 5V might be broken.

Repeat the measurement when the DAC is cold to see if the input voltage drops after warming up.


----------



## oldearwax (Mar 20, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> How could I make a DSD file without audio or very low level of pure tone for testing? can it be done by software or just by a DSD recorder machine?


Attached is a no sound pcm file, use pcm to dsd converter, which is available online.


----------



## ESL57

oldearwax said:


> Se adjunta un archivo pcm sin sonido, use el conversor de pcm a dvd, que está disponible en línea.


----------



## ESL57 (Mar 20, 2021)

Thanks, good idea, I will try it and comment, although I do not know if it will be equal to "native DSD"
Many months ago one of my first attempts to eliminate noise was to change the lm317 for adjustable low noise modules, I only remember that I measured the outputs of each lm317 and adjusted the voltages in each module to what I wrote down before, everything continues the same, now Someone can tell me that I should wait at each exit, I could readjust them again.
These are currently:


----------



## b0bb (Mar 20, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> ...now Someone can tell me that I should wait at each exit, I could readjust them again.
> These are currently:


Increase the output of the 2 right most regulators to 4.5V and see if the problem goes away
If not increase output to 5V

-IMPORTANT-
Do this when the DAC is cold, to avoid feeding the too much voltage to the final stage regulators at the cold startup.

Check voltage at the final stage regulator inputs
4 for the 9038 (2x LT1763 and 2x TPS7A47xx)
1 for the LT1763 feeding the line drivers

- Measure voltages when DAC is cold (no noise)
- Measure again when DAC is warm and shows noise at output

Post any observations if the voltage drops during warm up.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Interfaz LKS Amanero reconstruida
> 
> Cambió los relojes de 22/24 MHz por 45/49 MHz, redujo la fluctuación de fase en un 50% (3dB). El ruido de fase más bajo de la familia CCHD957 alrededor de 45-49MHz, captación adicional de 2dB de reducción de ruido.
> 12MHz 10ppm MEMS XO para microcontrolador USB, para mejorar el rendimiento de recepción USB
> ...


Mejoras muy interesantes B0bb, parecen coincidir con mi percepción de que Gustard u16 suena mejor que el amanero, u16 también tiene relojes el doble de frecuencia que los que instalaste, además admite dividir por 2 o multiplicar por 2 con un jumper.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gus...e-featuring-ess-usb-chip.888947/post-16212514


----------



## b0bb (Mar 24, 2021)

Here is the crystal swap on the Amanero in more detail
The stock crystal is 22/24MHz, replaced by a 45/49MHz set.
This takes advantage of the better performance provided by the 45/49MHz Crystek pair

Example numbers for 10Hz from carrier.

22/24MHz: -97dBc/Hz
44/49MHz: -100 dBc/Hz with  -6db from frequency division = -106 dBc/Hz

Phase noise improvement at 10Hz is 9dB or 2.8x reduction in phase noise

The bitclock for DSD512 is 22MHz, PCM352k is 22MHz, PCM384k is 24MHz


----------



## b0bb (Mar 21, 2021)

Amanero uses its OEMtool117 software to setup the selected masterclock.

MCLK/2 is used for the 45/49MHz pair
For the LKS Amanero board, pid has to be changed:  *pid_071a --> pid_0a23*

There is option to use 90/98MHz clock (MCLK/4)



Going to a higher frequency crystal is not necessarily better.

Example: AS318B phase noise numbers degrades significantly, 10Hz numbers below

45MHz  -101dBc/Hz
90MHz  -90dBc/Hz,

Phase noise after dividing down to 22MHz:

45MHz (-101-6) = -107dBc/Hz
90MHz (-90-12) = -102dBc/Hz

5db less, this 90MHz crystal  has 1.78x worse noise than 45MHz


----------



## b0bb (Mar 21, 2021)

This the swap for the Atmel ATSAM3U2C microcontroller reference 12MHz crystal.
The 12MHz reference frequency  is multiplied 40x to generate the 480MHz bitclock needed for USB 2.0.

This mod is to improve the performance of the USB receiver




Stock part is SCTF 7C, likely 50ppm stability
Replacement is Abracon ASVMB-12.000MHZ-XY-T, 10ppm


----------



## b0bb (Mar 21, 2021)

Further improvements to the analog frontend of the Amanero ATSAM3U2C USB receiver
- DxSDM/DxSDP USB input termination resistors
- VBG USB bias reference chain




The mod uses low inductance Tantalum nitride resistors, very close tolerance 0.1% and 25ppm stability
These are the  SMD components, very much wider than the standard part to reduce inductance
Larger size gives better thermal stability.

Resistors are IRC PFC-W0805LF-03-39R2-B

The VBG bias chain cap uses a precision 1% 10pF RF silicon cap, AVX Accu-P
Part num: 08051J100FBTTR


----------



## b0bb (Mar 21, 2021)

New TI regulators to replace existing Analog Devices  (ADI) regulators.
Both are very low noise, however the new TI regulators provides up to 10x improvement in isolation from external powers supply disturbance.

This is the main reason LKS provides each chip/XO with its individual regulator, this also includes and individual regulator for the off board galvanic isolator.
It isolates each chip from power spikes caused by the adjacent chips

The parameter is Power Supply Rejection Ratio (PSRR).

Best case is -105dB PSRR for TI regulator  compared -82dB for stock ADI (23dB or 15x improvement)

1kHz/100mA (14dB - 5x improvement with new TI regulator)
TPS7A2033 : -82dB
ADP151: -68dB


1MHz/100mA (11dB - 3.5x improvement with new TI regulator)
TPS7A2033 : -39dB
ADP151: -28dB

TPS7A2033 left/upper,  ADP151 on right/lower






New TI regulators 6 in total replaced on Amanero board
5x 3.3v
1x 1.8v




Refer to post below for locations
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-16252556


----------



## b0bb

Tantalum Nitride impedance matching transistors for I2S signal lines (data ,bclk,fclk etc)
The mod uses low inductance Tantalum nitride resistors, very close tolerance 0.1% and 25ppm stability
These are the  SMD components, very much wider than the standard part to reduce inductance
Larger size gives better thermal stability.

Resistors are IRC PFC-W0805LF-03-39R2-B


----------



## b0bb

Tantalum Nitride impedance matching transistors for XO output

Left block is I2S XO output
Right Block is USB microcontroller clock/ USB reference clock

The mod uses low inductance Tantalum nitride resistors, very close tolerance 0.1% and 25ppm stability
These are the  SMD components, very much wider than the standard part to reduce inductance
Larger size gives better thermal stability.

Low inductance minimises disruption to the shape of the clock signal, removing a contributory source of jitter.

Resistors are IRC PFC-W0805LF-03-39R2-B


----------



## b0bb (Mar 21, 2021)

Regulator Input Cap upgrade
Replaces 4.7uF ceramic with 47uF AVX Polymer Tantalum (F380J476MSAAH1)

Red boxes are the new caps
Yellow boxes are the new TI Regulators


----------



## b0bb (Mar 21, 2021)

Redo of a mod @Whitigir did a few years ago.
Replaces stock connector on Amanero card with a proper header.
Stock connection was so badly built  that it actually affected the sound quality.

This is half of a 20pin wire wrap socket from Millmax, thick gold plating (30 μ-inches/0.76μm) on contacts.
Partnum: 123-93-320-41-001000






Stock connector shown next to mod.
Really nasty hack job from LKS especially for something selling at 1500USD


----------



## b0bb (Mar 21, 2021)

High retention USB connector from Samtec, thick gold plating (30 μ-inches/0.76μm)
Single piece RF shield around connector.
Partnum: USBR-B-S-S-O-TH

Replaces generic Foxconn part, shield is not a single piece of metal.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> Mejoras muy interesantes B0bb, parecen coincidir con mi percepción de que Gustard u16 suena mejor que el amanero, u16 también tiene relojes el doble de frecuencia que los que instalaste, además admite dividir por 2 o multiplicar por 2 con un jumper.
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/gus...e-featuring-ess-usb-chip.888947/post-16212514


The purpose of the Amanero mod is to make it compete with my Singxer SU-6 on an equal footing.


----------



## MartinWT

@b0bb I'm looking at your photos of the Vishay trimmers and it appears that you've top soldered them. Am I right that the legs don't go through the holes? I've received mine and will be doing them soon.


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> @b0bb I'm looking at your photos of the Vishay trimmers and it appears that you've top soldered them. Am I right that the legs don't go through the holes? I've received mine and will be doing them soon.


Correct, bend the wire leads very slowly.


----------



## MartinWT (Apr 5, 2021)

Well, that was fiddly, especially removing the cermet trimmers and getting the Vishay legs bent and cut to fit.  Showing three of the Vishays done and all of the 200pF IV bypass polystyrenes in place.







It's been on soak running for two hours, early days yet for burn-in. I would say the improvements are subtle but definitely in the right direction. It sounds overall a touch darker, with some further reduction of sibilance and less spitting on some 's' and 't' sounds.

Dynamics, bass and tonality are unaffected. It does sound really good already, with knockout attack and boogie factor.

Oh, I forgot to add: I treated the two big green connector pins to some graphene contact enhancer. I use it throughout my system on every contact.


----------



## ESL57

New chapter on the history of this dac, nothing that I tried and changed in these last days I definitively fix the small noises, finally I decided to remove the two es9038 pro and see what I saw on the pcb, as you can see There is heat sink adhesive between the pins of the chip, is that the source of the noises? By the way, the pcb is of excellent quality, but I expected the chip to be soldered in the center below for better heat dissipation. By the way the sound I'm getting lately with all the changes is just "glorious"


----------



## MartinWT

Nasty.  Worth thoroughly cleaning up and resoldering the DACs.  Perhaps use double-sided heat-transfer tape rather than glue for the heatsinks.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 11, 2021)

LKS painted itself into a corner with the poor layout on the Gen 1 boards, it leaves no possibility to heatsink the 9038Pro chips to the PCB.
The heat load from the 5 adjacent regulators is already high, the pair of 1.2V regulators send a  very large amount of heat into the board.
Adding the heat contribution from the DAC chips will send things downhill.

Gen1 004 boards were a rushed job to get to market ASAP, the layout was re-cycled design from the previous 003 from the thru-hole vias running under the chip.
9018 on the 003 did not have a heat spreader on the underside.

Things might be better on the Gen2 boards.

Below is what I would like to see in future 9038Pro DACS, a big heat sink like what Gustard is using on the X26Pro.
(The Gustard has it own set of issues,  built in RFI noise generator (bluetooth) and the master clock is still too far away)


----------



## geoffalter11

b0bb said:


> LKS painted itself into a corner with the poor layout on the Gen 1 boards, it leaves no possibility to heatsink the 9038Pro chips to the PCB.
> The heat load from the 5 adjacent regulators is already high, the pair of 1.2V regulators send a  very large amount of heat into the board.
> Adding the heat contribution from the DAC chips will send things downhill.
> 
> ...


Has LKS fixed this issue with their 005 DAC that is twice the price?


----------



## b0bb (Apr 9, 2021)

geoffalter11 said:


> Has LKS fixed this issue with their 005 DAC that is twice the price?


Yes in the worst possible way, by reducing the DAC operating current.
The idle power consumption of the 005 is 16W (datasheet) vs 30W (measured) on the 004

As you increase the sampling rates the current/energy  per bit also has to be kept the same to avoid loss of sound quality.
If the rates go up so must the operating current.

This is especially true for the ESS designs and DSD and in-particular this is one of the main design improvements of the 9038 over the 9018
If the operating current is reduced you end up with the 9018.


----------



## geoffalter11

b0bb said:


> Yes in the worst possible way, by reducing the DAC operating current.
> The measured idle power consumption of the 005 is 12.5W vs 30W on the 004
> 
> As you increase the sampling rates the current/energy  per bit also has to be kept the same to avoid loss of sound quality.
> ...


Is the 005 worth the price increase or would you steer clear? What 9038 dacs have the best implementation?


----------



## geoffalter11

b0bb said:


> Yes in the worst possible way, by reducing the DAC operating current.
> The idle power consumption of the 005 is 12.5W (datasheet) vs 30W (measured) on the 004
> 
> As you increase the sampling rates the current/energy  per bit also has to be kept the same to avoid loss of sound quality.
> ...


Are these all cost decisions? I assume their engineers understand cause and affect in their designs...


----------



## b0bb

geoffalter11 said:


> Is the 005 worth the price increase or would you steer clear? What 9038 dacs have the best implementation?


I do not see anything to get excited with the 005, the asking price does it no favors.
I have yet to see a DAC that truly takes advantage of the 9038, effort  by Gustard and LKS is better than the average.



geoffalter11 said:


> Are these all cost decisions?



The Gen2 004s were subject to some of that.


----------



## geoffalter11

b0bb said:


> I do not see anything to get excited with the 005, the asking price does it no favors.
> I have yet to see a DAC that truly takes advantage of the 9038, effort  by Gustard and LKS is better than the average.
> 
> 
> ...


I read that the Resonessence Invicta Mirus DACs are a pretty great implementation of the ESS chips.


----------



## geoffalter11

geoffalter11 said:


> I read that the Resonessence Invicta Mirus DACs are a pretty great implementation of the ESS chips.





b0bb said:


> I do not see anything to get excited with the 005, the asking price does it no favors.
> I have yet to see a DAC that truly takes advantage of the 9038, effort  by Gustard and LKS is better than the average.
> 
> 
> ...


Have you heard of or know anything about the Hibiki SDS Discreet DAC?  Sold on the aoshida-audio.com website.


----------



## b0bb

geoffalter11 said:


> I read that the Resonessence Invicta Mirus DACs are a pretty great implementation of the ESS chips.


They are out of business, keep in mind when buying used.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/res...-discussion-review-thead.634760/post-15564417


----------



## b0bb (Apr 9, 2021)

geoffalter11 said:


> Have you heard of or know anything about the Hibiki SDS Discreet DAC?  Sold on the aoshida-audio.com website.


Interesting read, for a tried and true discrete DSD dac, take a look at the Holo May.

A modified 003 is better than the Holo Spring V1, the 003 thread has details.

A modified 004 will push the boundary of what is possible with the 9038Pro


----------



## b0bb (Apr 9, 2021)

This mod explores 2 things
1)
Addresses latest 9038Pro errata from ESS on improving performance for high rate DSD.
The 1.2V supplies have been upgraded to 1.3V (100mV increase).
More power supplied to the SDM modulators to address the energy per bit parity considerations mentioned earlier

Regulators are custom 1.3V output Belleson SPLV
(Another mis-step from LKS here, they directly wired the sense pin to output on the stock regulator making it impossible to raise the voltage so I got rid of it)

2)
This was also an attempt to relieve the heat load on the ground planes, heatsinks are 2mm thick tin-plated copper.
This is how I found out about the large amounts of heat the board soaks up.
The heatsinks run at about 60℃ in open air, goes up 72℃ with the top cover on.

This is work in progress, far from complete given the high temps even with the top off.




*
Sound quality:*
One of the reasons I switched over to DSD completely is the sublime analog like quality as the rates are increased.
(Provided the DSP processing aka HQPlayer does not run out of cycles)

Increasing the power supplied to the SDM modulators makes sure that there is enough energy per bit at the hghest DSD rates.
This is confirmed by ESS in their errata.

*Bottomline:*
With the increased power supplied the chip the 004 has reached a new level of smoothness, as a bonus the low end performance got a very nice boost in impact.
Sibilance is now a distant memory.


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> Sibilance is now a distant memory.



Since the Vishay trimpots and polystyrene IV capacitor mods, and also attention paid to my 10MHz master clock feeding the Mutec MC-3+ USB reclocker, I have found the same thing.  Sibilance is way down, detail and texture are up, bass is tighter, soundstage ambience up, note decay goes on and on.

This is with PCM, no DSD for me as I stream hi-res from Qobuz.


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> This is with PCM, no DSD for me as I stream hi-res from Qobuz.


Keep in mind that there is no PCM mode on the 9038 per se.
All inputs are converted to a sigma delta modulated (SDM) bitstream.
This a data bitstream describing the duration of the signal pulse.

DSD is just an encapsulation of this datastream.

PCM data is processed by the internal DSP in the DAC, the 9038 is already thermally constrained
This puts a limit on how much processing  can be applied.

When fed with an external SDM stream in the form of DSD, many parts of the final DSP processing chain gets bypassed.
This reduces power consumption on the DSP blocks inside the chip helping to keep temps down.

External PCM to DSD conversion is not difficult.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 9, 2021)

Dual mono 9038Pro implementation on the 004 is well done and bucks some of the criticism of using this type of configuration.
The 9038Pro power situation inside the chip is quite lean, mono operation shuts down some DSP normally used for stereo operation leaving more power for the SDM modulators to get better performance at the highest rates.

LKS provided sufficient power to the 9038Pro pair and just enough cooling to pull it off, the latter could do with considerable improvement.

LKS beat everyone to the punch by almost 5 years with the competition just catching up now. 004 was announced in mid-late 2016.
(Most of the early competitive dual 9038 designs ran with vastly reduced operating current making them improved 9018 rather a proper 9038Pro)


----------



## piaseczek

Xoverman said:


> I'm really thinking about it.
> 
> @b0bb.   Can you please post a picture of the position of all 4 resistors. In close up.



Hi Xoverman,
Have you made any progress with adding the 22 ohm resistors?


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Also try replacing the noise filter caps used by the TPS7A47 and LT1763 regulators with film caps, this reduces harshness due to the fridge magnets* LKS used
> 
> *the horrid ceramic caps LKS installed on the board, make good fridge magnets if you grind them up, add it to a latex base and magnetize it.



B0bb,
It sounds like a one of the most important mods, the power supply for the es9038 is the key to great sound, am I right?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> It sounds like a one of the most important mods, the power supply for the es9038 is the key to great sound, am I right?


One of a set of many.

Refer to the steps on the order of mods posted earlier.

The first thing to replace is the clock.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 11, 2021)

The 004 is unique among dual ES9038Pro DACs in that LKS configured a higher operating current for the 9038.

Many other DACs do not take this step, by improving power delivery to the 004 the full benefits of the high operating current is unlocked.
This also means a simple power upgrade works on the 004 but not necessarily on other DACs using this chip.

The reason other designs do not go down this route is due the heat generation, this is a solvable problem just takes more effort.


----------



## piaseczek

B0bb,
Is it a better option than the yellow one?

https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Sprague/CTS1157X96R3C2B?qs=ui%2B2d9lVEI4JgKRZVJk98g==

It's in the "wet tantalum" category and it's relatively cheap.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> Is it a better option than the yellow one?
> 
> https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Sprague/CTS1157X96R3C2B?qs=ui%2B2d9lVEI4JgKRZVJk98g==
> ...


No, DC leakage is 10% worse than yellow bead caps.


----------



## ESL57

I am studying the possibility of raising the LT1763 chips itself to 1.3v, perhaps with the calculation of the 2 resistors and its installation between the output pin and ADJ and GND could be feasible according to the datasheet (R1 and R2). Something that ESS recommended for the AVCC_L and AVCC_R analog 3.3v of the es9038pro was its own dual ultra low noise ES9311Q regulator, it is economical also, maybe they should have implemented it in this LKS004. What do you think B0bb about trying to raise the voltage a little to 1.3v in the LT1763 themselves? , which is the maximum current consumption in the VDD_L and _R (1.22v) ?, maybe the LT1963 although it is twice as noisy as LT1763 works with less heat admits up to 1.5A


----------



## Xoverman

piaseczek said:


> Hi Xoverman,
> Have you made any progress with adding the 22 ohm resistors?


No not jet   
I was working on a much bigger problem. I think i found a major design flaw in the 004 and the 005.
I'll post some more information next week. But what i can say already is, that it mackes the 004 sound way better than the stock 005.
I have the 005 at my house for comparison from a Friend.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> This mod explores 2 things
> 1)
> Addresses latest 9038Pro errata from ESS on improving performance for high rate DSD.
> The 1.2V supplies have been upgraded to 1.3V (100mV increase).
> ...


very interesting     wher did you get the ESS errata list from ?


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> No not jet
> I was working on a much bigger problem. I think i found a major design flaw in the 004 and the 005.
> I'll post some more information next week. But what i can say already is, that it mackes the 004 sound way better than the stock 005.
> I have the 005 at my house for comparison from a Friend.


How interesting please Xoverman don't have us long time with the unknown of your discovery. 
About going from 1.2v to 1.3v read page 12 of the es9038pro datasheet


----------



## b0bb (Apr 16, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> I am studying the possibility of raising the LT1763 chips itself to 1.3v, perhaps with the calculation of the 2 resistors and its installation between the output pin and ADJ and GND could be feasible according to the datasheet (R1 and R2). Something that ESS recommended for the AVCC_L and AVCC_R analog 3.3v of the es9038pro was its own dual ultra low noise ES9311Q regulator, it is economical also, maybe they should have implemented it in this LKS004. What do you think B0bb about trying to raise the voltage a little to 1.3v in the LT1763 themselves? , which is the maximum current consumption in the VDD_L and _R (1.22v) ?, maybe the LT1963 although it is twice as noisy as LT1763 works with less heat admits up to 1.5A


There is no voltage divider on my board, LKS connected the sense input to the output directly so the Lt1763 could not be reused.
The main problem is keeping things cool, the 1763 is adequate.
Belleson has a lot of surface area for cooling.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> very interesting     wher did you get the ESS errata list from ?


Latest version of the ESS datasheet.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> This mod explores 2 things
> 1)
> Addresses latest 9038Pro errata from ESS on improving performance for high rate DSD.
> The 1.2V supplies have been upgraded to 1.3V (100mV increase).
> ...


Hi B0bb,
Can you please share a close up photo of your PCB at the neu regulator section? 
The LDO's on my PCB are LP38798 and TPS7A4700RGWR.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> How interesting please Xoverman don't have us long time with the unknown of your discovery.
> About going from 1.2v to 1.3v read page 12 of the es9038pro datasheet


That's great, thay finally made it public.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Hi B0bb,
> Can you please share a close up photo of your PCB at the neu regulator section?
> The LDO's on my PCB are LP38798 and TPS7A4700RGWR.


The regulator is a very tight fit and is for the LT1763 footprint, I am not sure if I will keep it this way in the long term.
Not recommended for newbies.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 18, 2021)

LP38798 is a switched mode regulator operating at 3.5MHz.

Bitclock for 16/44k is 1.4MHz, 24/88k is 4.2MHz
The regulator shows noise peaks in the datasheets around 3.5MHz this within the operating bandwidth of the audio datastream.
(2nd harmonic of 44k sampling frequency, near the fundamental sampling frequency for 88k, 9038 is a bitstream DAC, so everything is referenced as the bitclock)

Seems like a poor choice for a regulator, not sure what LKS was thinking.
There should have been more effort put in to deal with the heat problem, using a switching regulator is not a good approach.


----------



## wersuss (Apr 18, 2021)

b0bb said:


> This mod explores 2 things
> 1)
> Addresses latest 9038Pro errata from ESS on improving performance for high rate DSD.
> The 1.2V supplies have been upgraded to 1.3V (100mV increase).
> ...


This looks sick! Great job!


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> LP38798 is a switched mode regulator operating at 3.5MHz.
> 
> Bitclock for 16/44k is 1.4MHz, 24/88k is 4.2MHz
> The regulator shows noise peaks in the datasheets around 3.5MHz this within the operating bandwidth of the audio datastream.
> ...


No, it's not. It's a 
800-mA, 20-V, low-noise, high-PSRR, adjustable low-dropout voltage regulator​


----------



## b0bb (Apr 18, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> No, it's not. It's a
> 800-mA, 20-V, low-noise, high-PSRR, adjustable low-dropout voltage regulator​


Yes it is.
See section 7
3.5MHz Charge pump driving the active ripple rejection, likely a switched capacitor block.
Noise leakage from this will give the SD modulators a big headache.
AKM modulators use switched capacitors, ESS uses weighted switched current sources.


----------



## MartinWT

...and it's a switching regulator.

Read the datasheet
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lp38798.pdf


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Yes it is.
> See section 7
> 3.5MHz Charge pump driving the active ripple rejection, likely a switched capacitor block.
> Noise leakage from this will give the SD modulators a big headache.
> AKM modulators use switched capacitors, ESS uses weighted switched current sources.


Shame on me, I overlooked that.
 How stupid can some one be, and place a high frequency switching device next to a DAC.
And if they don't switch exactly in sinc, they will produce tons of garbage.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 18, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> How stupid can some one be, and place a high frequency switching device next to a DAC.
> And if they don't switch exactly in sinc, they will produce tons of garbage.


Agreed...

Using *two* switched mode regulators takes first prize for stupidity.
9038Pro is capable of -135db noise floor if correctly implemented.
The regulator saves a few dollars from the BOM compared to LT1763  but I think this takes cost cutting too far.

Given your skill with electronics, I would just get rid of it.
Replace with a high performance linear regulator from TI/LT/ADI or a discrete design from reputable manufacturer like the Belleson I used.

(If the regulator is supplying the 1.2V rail there is additional reason to replace and use 1.3V for increased performance)


----------



## Xoverman

First part of my LKS relay improvement:

As I found out earlier, there is a lot of HF in the 004.
A more intensive search for this has revealed another design negligence.
The 004 and apparently also the 005 use 5 relays which are controlled directly by the CPU via a Darlington chip.

2 relays switch on the +/- 16.5 volt analog voltage.
2 relays switch the two XLR outputs to GND
1 relay switches the two RCA outputs to GND.

All relays together require about 120mA of current. The relay is supplied directly from the 5V CPU power supply (red). The supply line is distributed across the board, and sometimes even runs exactly parallel to the 3.3V digital DAC Chip supply. All relays are directly connected to the 5V CPU voltage. The minus pin of the relay’s go to a 7x Darlington chip in the middle of the 004 board. From there, 120mA 5V GND flow back across the GND plain to the CPU power supply (blue).

This modulates all other digital GND’s somewhat. That can't be good  .

LKS probably knows something about this problem and tried to decouple the CPU HF with a small ferrite bead (yellow)


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Agreed...
> 
> Using *two* switched mode regulators takes first prize for stupidity.
> 9038Pro is capable of -135db noise floor if correctly implemented.
> The regulator saves a few dollars from the BOM compared to LT1763  but I think this takes cost cutting too far.


Unfortunately, cost cutting is everywhere.


----------



## Xoverman

Second part of my LKS relay improvement:

In order to evaluate my thesis I glued a few narrow ferrite strips directly onto the conductor tracks that go from the ULN2003 to the output relay.

The effect was greater than I thought it would be.

Midrange clarity increased noticeably. The Stage gets deeper.

This is a fast and uncomplicated MOD, and it proves that I was / am on the right track.


----------



## Xoverman

Third part of my LKS relay improvement:

After the ferrite strips directly on the conductor tracks that go from the ULN2003 to the output relays had such a big effect, that motivated me to further improve the supply of the relays.

I isolated all conductor tracks that go away from the 5V CPU supply with chokes.
In some places I separated the conductor tracks and relocated them.

The effect is incredible.

All of a sudden I have deep bass and the bass is insanely clean and audible.
This is finally the bass that I know from other ultra high-end DACs.

And I already have an idea how I can improve it and top this MOD.


----------



## Whitigir

Xoverman said:


> Third part of my LKS relay improvement:
> 
> After the ferrite strips directly on the conductor tracks that go from the ULN2003 to the output relays had such a big effect, that motivated me to further improve the supply of the relays.
> 
> ...


Where do you get these ferrite stripes


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Third part of my LKS relay improvement:
> 
> After the ferrite strips directly on the conductor tracks that go from the ULN2003 to the output relays had such a big effect, that motivated me to further improve the supply of the relays.
> 
> ...


This to isolate the 5v lines with more chokes, you have already done it or it is a project yet, I don't quite understand
Your ferrite looks something like this:
https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail...EpiMZZMukHu%2BjC5l7YX4C0dcZQBkHJd/u/2Hz%2BYE=


----------



## ESL57

By the way, something that helped me with the external RF noise from the AC power supply were these 47nf capacitors (yellow) in the shottky rectifier diodes, they hinder the passage of RF noises from the toroids, Xoverman for example with the isolating transformers system of your AC installation, I do not think you need.


----------



## Xoverman

ferrite
https://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/623-38M6050AA0606


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> By the way, something that helped me with the external RF noise from the AC power supply were these 47nf capacitors (yellow) in the shottky rectifier diodes, they hinder the passage of RF noises from the toroids, Xoverman for example with the isolating transformers system of your AC installation, I do not think you need.


Hello ESL57,
I tried that a long time ago. Back then things got worse for me, so i t took them back out.
But as i said that was a long time ago. So I guess I should try it again after all these MOD's


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Hello ESL57,
> I tried that a long time ago. Back then things got worse for me, so i t took them back out.
> But as i said that was a long time ago. So I guess I should try it again after all these MOD's


If you are using the MBRF10H100 from Vishay, the 47nF bypass is not needed and potentially detrimental to performance as you discovered.

@ESL57 what are you using for the schottky diode?
Your latest photos shows diodes with exposed metal bodies.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 19, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> First part of my LKS relay improvement:
> 
> As I found out earlier, there is a lot of HF in the 004.
> A more intensive search for this has revealed another design negligence.
> ...


The problem is LKS substituted the expensive Nichicon FP caps for cheap ceramic caps post Gen1.
The ground plane on the board was originally setup to expect low ESR electrolytics distributed around the copper area.
The ceramics are not up to the task of keeping noise down.

My Gen1  has the FP caps (Cans with red stripe)





Gen2/3 boards are missing some of the FP caps, about 6 in total are missing compared to Gen1






I think if those caps are put back in the problems with noise will start to improve


----------



## b0bb (Apr 19, 2021)

The other thing to do is stop RF noise at the source.
It is leaking thru the relay line drivers into the rest of the DAC.

1) Turn off VFD with remote control  if not already done
2) Stick ferrite sheets onto the support microcontroller as shown below, this is the chip on the right.
If you have the stock ISO7640 capacitive isolator, add ferrite there as well
(Note: no ferrite on the IL715, it is a GMR isolator chip, M means magnetic, ferrite will affect its operation)





3) Use larger bypass caps like the low ESR 820uF Nichicon FP-RNL cap caps as shown above.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 19, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> First part of my LKS relay improvement:
> 
> As I found out earlier, there is a lot of HF in the 004.
> A more intensive search for this has revealed another design negligence.
> The 004 and apparently also the 005 use 5 relays which are controlled directly by the CPU via a Darlington chip.





Xoverman said:


> This modulates all other digital GND’s somewhat. That can't be good  .
> 
> LKS probably knows something about this problem and tried to decouple the CPU HF with a small ferrite bead (yellow)


An effective way to control the problem is to add a decoupling cap between COM and ground on the driver chip.

Notice there is no decoupling whatsoever around the chip.




The relays change state quite infrequently and this never happens when music is playing.
Quite understandable why LKS never bothered to clean things up.

The ground plane fluctuations while the relays are operating are annoying but is not a major problem.
The bigger issue is the noise leakage thru these circuits from things like the VFD and microcontroller.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> An effective way to control the problem is to add a decoupling cap between COM and ground on the driver chip.
> 
> Notice there is no decoupling whatsoever around the chip.
> 
> ...


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> This to isolate the 5v lines with more chokes, you have already done it or it is a project yet, I don't quite understand
> Your ferrite looks something like this:
> https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/Wurth-Elektronik/364104?qs=sGAEpiMZZMukHu%2BjC5l7YX4C0dcZQBkHJd/u/2Hz%2BYE=


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> If you are using the MBRF10H100 from Vishay, the 47nF bypass is not needed and potentially detrimental to performance as you discovered.
> 
> @ESL57 what are you using for the schottky diode?
> Your latest photos shows diodes with exposed metal bodies.


The capacitors in the diodes is another of my lost battles against the dirty DSD of some recordings, I did not think it would affect negatively, but when I solve my problem I will remove them to compare, effectively Vishay's MBRF10H100


----------



## ESL57

Trabajo duro Xoverman, sería algo genial vivir cerca entre los usuarios de estos dacs LKS004 tan modificados y juntarnos para escuchar las diferencias entre máquinas tan diferentes hoy en día, sería algo muy divertido pero lamentablemente imposible.


----------



## b0bb (Apr 21, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> The capacitors in the diodes is another of my lost battles against the dirty DSD of some recordings, I did not think it would affect negatively, but when I solve my problem I will remove them to compare, effectively Vishay's MBRF10H100


You have a Gen1 board, LKS removed about 50% of the FP bypass caps in Gen2.

I am thinking that the excessive noise @Xoverman is seeing is due to inadequate decoupling on the Gen2

Adding the 47nF caps allows noise from the noisy regulator to bypass the rectifier and coupled back thru the transformer secondaries onto the other 5V windings of the same transformer, like the line drivers and the 5V DAC supply.

The MBRF10H100 is very low capacitance, about 300pF@5V  which normally stops a lot of the backflow of noise.
This could be why @Xoverman observed loss of performance when the caps were added.

You did not notice a degradation as your Gen1 board bypassed most of the noise and it never got the opportunity to get into the noise sensitive parts of the DAC.

The main source appears to be the support microcontroller clocked at 35MHz
This coincides with frequency range of the maximum insertion loss of the 2.2mH chokes @Xoverman used.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Trabajo duro Xoverman, sería algo genial vivir cerca entre los usuarios de estos dacs LKS004 tan modificados y juntarnos para escuchar las diferencias entre máquinas tan diferentes hoy en día, sería algo muy divertido pero lamentablemente imposible.


yes, that really would be fun, and very very interesting. Maybe it is possible when covid-19 is over ?


----------



## Xoverman

Here is a riddle. What have I done ?


----------



## oldearwax

pi filter & diode bridge ??


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Here is a riddle. What have I done ?


You have made a mod so that the uln2003 chip does not directly control the relays, now they are isolated with optocouplers and I add a diode to each coil of the to protect the transistors of the optocouplers.  Do I take power or GND in the analog source, I can't see it through the blu tack balls


----------



## ESL57

New mod, attempt to raise the LT1763 to 1.3v (pin 2 disconnected from the pcb), in addition to changing the capacitors for other low noise ones suggested by B0bb, and I will comment if it works correctly.


----------



## ESL57

Perfect, values:
R1= 150k
R2= 9K1


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> New mod, attempt to raise the LT1763 to 1.3v (pin 2 disconnected from the pcb), in addition to changing the capacitors for other low noise ones suggested by B0bb, and I will comment if it works correctly.


Nicely done, very clean.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Perfect, values:
> R1= 150k
> R2= 9K1


If you reduce the values noise will go down.


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> If you reduce the values noise will go down.


Yes, I could do it, for example it's better like this:
R1= 1K5
R2= 91R
Or even lower values?


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> You have made a mod so that the uln2003 chip does not directly control the relays, now they are isolated with optocouplers and I add a diode to each coil of the to protect the transistors of the optocouplers.  Do I take power or GND in the analog source, I can't see it through the blu tack balls


you are right, very good.


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> tienes razón, muy bien.   : xf_cool:


I understand, my little doubt was that the original relays are 5vdc, and from what I see they have changed to 24vdc relays.


----------



## Xoverman

I expected that the bass would be even more transparent with this MOD than with the ferrite MOD.
But that did not happen. Instead the midrange became more transparent. Reverb and voices became much more transparent.
Elvis fever (take 1) 1960 blew me away. I've never heard his voice so clear.

The bass precision has remained of course. So another small step forward.

By the way, the fine cables are "star quad cables" made by myself. They help minimize inductive radiation.


----------



## Xoverman (Apr 23, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> I understand, my little doubt was that the original relays are 5vdc, and from what I see they have changed to 24vdc relays.


Yes,     PCN-124D3MHZ,001

https://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/655-PCN-124D3MHZ001


----------



## oldearwax

Xoverman said:


> you are right, very good.


No fly-back diode (built-in uln2003) across the relay ?


----------



## b0bb (Apr 23, 2021)

This is missing from the schematic


----------



## Xoverman

oh man, i was in a hurry


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Yes, I could do it, for example it's better like this:
> R1= 1K5
> R2= 91R
> Or even lower values?


I think that's fine, how about you B0bb?


----------



## Xoverman

Yesterday I measured the voltages on the LP38798 in my 004.
Input is :      4,1V   not 5V
Output is :   1,2V


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Yes, I could do it, for example it's better like this:
> R1= 1K5
> R2= 91R
> Or even lower values?


Did you allredy notice a sonic difference going from 1,2 to 1,3V ?


----------



## wersuss

My analog power rails are off balance, any way to balance? One channel 14.7 and other one is 15.4v.


----------



## ESL57 (Apr 24, 2021)

wersuss said:


> My analog power rails are off balance, any way to balance? One channel 14.7 and other one is 15.4v


Luckily that is very easy to adjust, it has an adjustable multiturn resistance for the negative voltage and another for the positive voltage. You should set them for -15.5v and + 15.5v


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Did you allredy notice a sonic difference going from 1,2 to 1,3V ?


I have little to hear it, "I had the 2 engines in the pits, outside the car", they are already installed and clean, now I will also install a CCHD-950X, and a new cooling system for the two 9038pro.
By the way, what do you think of Musetec 005, could you describe its sound with respect to LKS004?


----------



## wersuss

ESL57 said:


> Luckily that is very easy to adjust, it has an adjustable multiturn resistance for the negative voltage and another for the positive voltage. You should set them for -15.5v and + 15.5v


Thanks for answer! Runs perfect now 15.5 - 15.5 !


----------



## b0bb (Apr 26, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> I think that's fine, how about you B0bb?


Looks OK, the sense input bias current of the Lt1763  is below 100nA either chosen set of values will work.
The overall lower resistive divider values you proposed has lower impedance which has lower thermal noise.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> Looks OK, the sense input bias current of the Lt1763  is below 100nA either chosen set of values will work.
> The overall lower resistive divider values you proposed has lower impedance which provides lower thermal noise


Hi! I have few capacitors leftover, 6 Amtrans amco 0.22uF and 4 Leclanché Signal path tin foil. also 0.22uF. 
Anywhere i could use them in this DAC?


----------



## ESL57 (Apr 26, 2021)

I finally got it, the noises have disappeared  I don't want to say it too loud because it has cost me sweat and tears. Now it's time to enjoy the music alone, here there are no treble or bass ... only real music, this is on another level, I have some details to finish the play, but now I need to rest, stop and listen for a while and see If the burnout of the clock can still achieve greater realism, this may be the end of the road until a chip superior to the ES9038PRO is invented.
Analog recordings such as the voice of Esther Ofarim "Una matica de ruda" DSD64 are of unusual realism.
The string instruments in song number 14 "String Quintet in C, Op.30 No.6" from the "Master and Commander" cd 44.1khz, are here in my room.
Thank you all for your help and wise advice.


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Hi! I have few capacitors leftover, 6 Amtrans amco 0.22uF and 4 Leclanché Signal path tin foil. also 0.22uF.
> Anywhere i could use them in this DAC?


You are using the WIMA polyproplyene (PP) caps in your DAC.
The existing caps you are using are already good.

The Amtrans is made from PET, a worse performing dielectric.

Leclanche is just another PP cap, benefits are incremental over your existing caps,
It is better suited for high power applications like a speaker crossover.
It is too big to fit under the board, you have to decide if it is worth the risk of desoldering the existing caps.

Bigger is definately not better for the DAC in this instance.


----------



## oldearwax (Apr 26, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> I finally got it, the noises have disappeared  I don't want to say it too loud because it has cost me sweat and tears. Now it's time to enjoy the music alone, here there are no treble or bass ... only real music, this is on another level, I have some details to finish the play, but now I need to rest, stop and listen for a while and see If the burnout of the clock can still achieve greater realism, this may be the end of the road until a chip superior to the ES9038PRO is invented.
> Analog recordings such as the voice of Esther Ofarim "Una matica de ruda" DSD64 are of unusual realism.
> The string instruments in song number 14 "String Quintet in C, Op.30 No.6" from the "Master and Commander" cd 44.1khz, are here in my room.
> Thank you all for your help and wise advice.


Good job and congratulations !     ✨✨

I notice that you've replaced the Accusilicon XO.
How did you mount the CCHD-950X ?
The CCHD-950X pad is not far enough to reach the eyelet/donut, do you have wires underneath the pads ?


----------



## ESL57

oldearwax said:


> Good job and congratulations !     ✨✨
> 
> I notice that you've replaced the Accusilicon XO.
> How did you mount the CCHD-950X ?
> The CCHD-950X pad is not far enough to reach the eyelet/donut, do you have wires underneath the pads ?


Thanks
Install it like this: solder the 2 pins VCC and OUT to the smd pads of the old clock with a fine tip soldering iron, and since the GND pad is not visible to be able to solder, extend it to the outside with a microwire, below there is kapton tape to avoid short circuit and give some mechanical damping.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> You are using the WIMA polyproplyene (PP) caps in your DAC.
> The existing caps you are using are already good.
> 
> The Amtrans is made from PET, a worse performing dielectric.
> ...


Thank you b0bb. I will try to use them in my speakers or power amp boards.


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Yesterday I measured the voltages on the LP38798 in my 004.
> Input is :      4,1V   not 5V
> Output is :   1,2V


In my GEN1 equal to the 4.1v input of the LT1763, its source of that voltage is the central LM317 regulator, in my case a low noise module that substitutes it.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> I have little to hear it, "I had the 2 engines in the pits, outside the car", they are already installed and clean, now I will also install a CCHD-950X, and a new cooling system for the two 9038pro.
> By the way, what do you think of Musetec 005, could you describe its sound with respect to LKS004?


I listened to the Musetec 005 with my critical listening music, and kept switching back and forth between the 004 and the 005.
I used exactly the same settings and setup for both DAC's. Power supply runs over a designated isolation transformer.
Digital content was supplied by the I2S-H input coming from a SU-6 running on Battery.

Sonic difference:
I must say that i was a little bit scared prior to this test. Modding the 004 took so much time and effort.
But the result was quite pleasing. My modded 004 sounded just a little bit better. Bass was a little bit more refined and transparent then with the 005.
I would say, the 005 sounds "EXACTLY" like my 004 without my first relay fix / Mod.

To validate my findings, I took the 005 to a friends house. He also has a very very good setup with a 004 that only has the power supply caps upgraded.
Power supply is a PS Audio P10.  Digital content was supplied by the I2S-H input coming from a SU-1.
The difference was quite large. Every sonic feature was etlest one or two classes better then with the slightly modified 004.

My Conclusion:
For those of you that have a highly modified 004 it would be a step back infesting in a 005. ( makes me very happy ) 
For those of you that have only a moderat modified 004, investing in a 005 might be a good idea.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> I finally got it, the noises have disappeared  I don't want to say it too loud because it has cost me sweat and tears. Now it's time to enjoy the music alone, here there are no treble or bass ... only real music, this is on another level, I have some details to finish the play, but now I need to rest, stop and listen for a while and see If the burnout of the clock can still achieve greater realism, this may be the end of the road until a chip superior to the ES9038PRO is invented.
> Analog recordings such as the voice of Esther Ofarim "Una matica de ruda" DSD64 are of unusual realism.
> The string instruments in song number 14 "String Quintet in C, Op.30 No.6" from the "Master and Commander" cd 44.1khz, are here in my room.
> Thank you all for your help and wise advice.


Oh man I'm so happy for you. That was a tuff one .
Did you find out what the final problem was ?
Was it one of the 9038pro that you resolderd ?
Or maby bringing the dac voltage up to 1,3V ?


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Oh man I'm so happy for you. That was a tuff one .
> Did you find out what the final problem was ?
> Was it one of the 9038pro that you resolderd ?
> Or maby bringing the dac voltage up to 1,3V ?


Thank you, I had to apply the mother of science "patience", I do not think that any audio technical service would have complicated life in such a frustrating job. Finally only when I removed and cleaned the pins of the ES9038PRO the silence appeared, in my old photos you can see the adhesive generously applied by the factory inserted between the pins, this was the problem, difficult to diagnose.


----------



## piaseczek (Apr 28, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> My Conclusion:
> For those of you that have a highly modified 004 it would be a step back infesting in a 005. ( makes me very happy )



Could you share the details how you have modified your 004?
Thank you.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> I have always used the Vishay Metal Foil resistors for I/V duties, Texas Components is the manufacturer for the module.
> LKS has experimented a lot with different resistors so the actual resistor depends on the version.
> LKS used 0.5% Holco HP4 on my unit
> https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/holco_data_0.pdf
> ...


B0bb originally my GEN1 had these Holco resistors (and they sounded good) I want to replace the 75ohm with others of their original value of 68.1ohm, but not with expensive modules from Texas.
Buy these:
https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/71-CPF268R100FKE14
 But as I see in the pdf that you attached that the Tyco Holco of origin are of 50ppm, 0.5%, 1w not inductive, even better than the vishay, only that this is 2w instead of 1w. Which of the 2 would be your choice?


----------



## b0bb (Apr 29, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> B0bb originally my GEN1 had these Holco resistors (and they sounded good) I want to replace the 75ohm with others of their original value of 68.1ohm, but not with expensive modules from Texas.
> Buy these:
> https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/71-CPF268R100FKE14
> But as I see in the pdf that you attached that the Tyco Holco of origin are of 50ppm, 0.5%, 1w not inductive, even better than the vishay, only that this is 2w instead of 1w. Which of the 2 would be your choice?


50ppm is 86dB below full scale, 100ppm is 80dB, neither are good compared to the -135dB potential noisefloor of the 9038pro.
You are not anywhere close to unlocking the DAC's potential.
-80dB is 1980's era digital performance, between 13-14bits of effective resolution.

The 1 ppm of the TX2575 is -120dB, what you get from Texas Components is a high power version of the TX2575 with the same 1 ppm spec.
(A casual check on Mouser shows the best available are 2 to 3W 20ppm inductive wirewound  resistors, not impressive...)


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> HQplayer on Sonictransporter: Start with DSD5 modulator and poly-sinc-ext2 filter.
> NAA: Set NUC Bios to boot from USB and burn premade boot image to usb stick, no further config .
> 
> Quick start:
> ...


Hy B0bb,  do you still use the NUC as your NAA target ?


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> 50ppm is 86dB below full scale, 100ppm is 80dB, neither are good compared to the -135dB potential noisefloor of the 9038pro.
> You are not anywhere close to unlocking the DAC's potential.
> -80dB is 1980's era digital performance, between 13-14bits of effective resolution.
> 
> ...


Bobb, you who understand the theory of electronics like few around here, what is this about the THD "hump" in the dac ES9038PRO?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ess-thd-‘hump’-investigation.5752/post-743339


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Hy B0bb,  do you still use the NUC as your NAA target ?


Yes


----------



## b0bb (Apr 30, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Bobb, you who understand the theory of electronics like few around here, what is this about the THD "hump" in the dac ES9038PRO?
> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ess-thd-‘hump’-investigation.5752/post-743339


Actually it is called the IMD hump, it is a rise in intermodulation distortion at certain output levels.

That happens when DAC manufacturers do not follow the recommended I/V design ESS provided, LKS follow it very closely so it is a non issue.

The IMD issue is due to common mode distortion on the 9038 outputs, using an op-amp to sum the differential outputs from the DAC cancels this out making it a non-issue.
That is how ESS did it, if the manufacturers do not follow it you will see the issue.

On the 004 we can trim the offsets of each half of the differential amp, that is one of the reasons to carefully balance the DC offsets.
Changing the trimmers to the precision Vishay multiturn trimmers makes the job easier.

The other thing LKS did was play close attention to Vcom bypass which affects the common mode voltage level on the DAC

Benchmark has a more detailed explanation here
This link shows someone reducing the gain on the opamp to fix the hump issue, the values are much lower, closer in line to what LKS is using.
004 uses very high current (3-5x above the average), so to get the same output  voltage, the gain required on the opamp is much lower, this reduces IMD

You could try the IMD sweep on the 004 if you are curious.

PS: do not confuse with THD compensation, different topic, the link you provided mixes this and the IMD hump issue


----------



## ESL57 (May 1, 2021)

I am finishing the last pending tasks before closing the DAC to enjoy it, I have tried to improve the thermal dissipation of my GEN1 with ceramic dissipative sheets on the sides of the new heat sinks, I don't know if it is because lowered the temperature by 2º or 3ºC in the ESS chips or is it because the clock has rolled for a couple of days, but the sound is more relaxed, exciting and the music emanates from a dark background like I have never heard before, I also put sticky ferrite on the pcb where Xoverman suggested on the relays control zone and also wet pieces of heatsinks under the ES9038 in contact with the chassis and pcb, also the final transistors are also with new dissipation.
Every detail adds up, I have Qobuz that goes up to 192khz and have high resolution PCM files, but I have to say that as DSD files sound at the moment, they are very superior to PCM in my opinion.
I only need to install the Texas component modules but I can now enjoy this .....
Wonderful music machine!


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> I am finishing the last pending tasks before closing the DAC to enjoy it, I have tried to improve the thermal dissipation of my GEN1 with ceramic dissipative sheets on the sides of the new heat sinks, I don't know if it is because lowered the temperature by 2º or 3ºC in the ESS chips or is it because the clock has rolled for a couple of days, but the sound is more relaxed, exciting and the music emanates from a dark background like I have never heard before, I also put sticky ferrite on the pcb where Xoverman suggested on the relays control zone and also wet pieces of heatsinks under the ES9038 in contact with the chassis and pcb, also the final transistors are also with new dissipation.
> Every detail adds up, I have Qobuz that goes up to 192khz and have high resolution PCM files, but I have to say that as DSD files sound at the moment, they are very superior to PCM in my opinion.
> I only need to install the Texas component modules but I can now enjoy this .....
> Wonderful music machine!


That looks really neat. How larger are your tantalium comp capacitors?


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> That looks really neat. How larger are your tantalium comp capacitors?


The wet tantalums are Castanet 820uf / 10v with 3uv leakage, a value much higher than the suggested 150uf, but I don't think I will change them, the bass is very tight and the music offers a lot of weight, I liked them a lot.


----------



## b0bb (May 7, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Hy B0bb,  do you still use the NUC as your NAA target ?


Not all versions of the NUC are good.
The big central rectangle is the CPU.
Good --> Left/Top: NUC8i3; 128MB L4 eDRAM cache, note 3 silicon dies, L4 Cache is the leftmost die.
Mediocre --> Right/Bottom: NUC10i5; 3rd silicon die missing, no L4 Cache






NAA runtime code is 16MB, it can completely run inside the L4 cache.
This greatly reduces latency improving audio performance.
The little mobile CPUs used on the NUC have very little L3 cache, between 2-4MB.
NUCs without the L4 cache have quite mediocre performance.

Dual core preferred to allow running with fan off most of the time.

(NAA memory footprint is the Linux version, more if you run on software from S.Nadella & Co)


----------



## ESL57 (May 8, 2021)

b0bb said:


> 50ppm is 86dB below full scale, 100ppm is 80dB, neither are good compared to the -135dB potential noisefloor of the 9038pro.
> You are not anywhere close to unlocking the DAC's potential.
> -80dB is 1980's era digital performance, between 13-14bits of effective resolution.
> 
> ...


The valuation or ranking lists of DAC are objective and are based on the minimum noise floor and distosion THD and IMD, Gustard x-26 got a good position at the time on the ASR web: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tard-dac-x26.7007/#lg=attachment23326&slide=0 , B0bb as you think it would be compared to for example your 004 modified in noise levels ?.
Thank God I never got into your hands and measure at the time Amirm, sir (Amir Majidimehr) an original LKS004 with its spectacular and expensive Audio Precision APx555 analyzer. How interesting it would be to know this data on a serial LKS004 and a highly modified one.
Some time ago I commented that I have on my workbench for the frequency domain an old Hp3561A (Dynamic signal analyzer) from 1985, according to its specifications it has a dynamic range of 80db and a minimum measurement level of 1uv, it never crossed my mind. the head use it to measure noise floor in DAC, I see that it does not have enough dynamic range, only to detect important faults.
A separate discussion would be a great ultra low noise low floor does a great sounding DAC or just a very quiet DAC? The IMD if it is something never desirable.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> The valuation or ranking lists of DAC are objective and are based on the minimum noise floor and distosion THD and IMD, Gustard x-26 got a good position at the time on the ASR web: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tard-dac-x26.7007/#lg=attachment23326&slide=0 , B0bb as you think it would be compared to for example your 004 modified in noise levels ?.
> Thank God I never got into your hands and measure at the time Amirm, sir (Amir Majidimehr) an original LKS004 with its spectacular and expensive Audio Precision APx555 analyzer. How interesting it would be to know this data on a serial LKS004 and a highly modified one.
> Some time ago I commented that I have on my workbench for the frequency domain an old Hp3561A (Dynamic signal analyzer) from 1985, according to its specifications it has a dynamic range of 80db and a minimum measurement level of 1uv, it never crossed my mind. the head use it to measure noise floor in DAC, I see that it does not have enough dynamic range, only to detect important faults.
> A separate discussion would be a great ultra low noise low floor does a great sounding DAC or just a very quiet DAC? The IMD if it is something never desirable.


You can do the noisefloor measurement with your HP, fullscale output on the DAC is 4V, 1uV is -132dBfs.
Dynamic range is not an issue here.

004 noise numbers are not expected be impressive given the numerous noise problems we have had to address.

SINAD is a minimum standard, it is over the audio band (20-20k), for the 004 what is important is wideband noise (0-50Mhz).
Reducing noise is to help improve the SDM conversion with the reduction on the analog side being just a bonus.
9038 uses numerous precision current sources that react negatively to wideband noise.

SINAD does not adequately expose the IMD hump issue on the 004 as it does not average the numbers over multiple output levels.


----------



## b0bb

Keep the following in mind when considering the topic of noise in your specific system

If you use speakers, what is the ambient noise level?
Can you hear noise from your system with no inputs under the following situations
Listening position
Up close at the speaker

On the 004 I find that the noise floor in the recording itself predominates even with headphones.


----------



## b0bb (May 8, 2021)

IMD is not a new phenomenon, it was first described by Matti Otala in 1977 as Transient Intermodulation distortion in power amps.

A modern chip opamp is defined as such:

Stupidly high open loop gain, 60dB or higher, often as high 100dB.
To get to the desired overall gain apply an equivalent idiotic high amount of feedback.
Example to get 10dB of gain from an opamp with 60dB open loop gain, apply 50dB feedback (60-50 =10 )

Problems start to happen when

The opamp output stage cannot keep up with signal changes from the voltage amplification (VAS) section
This is called slew rate limiting,
the more output current the worse it becomes
the higher frequency/bandwidth the worse it becomes

Net result is massive signal overshoots due to the delay between input and feedback
At this point the whole house of cards comes crashing  down

Why are we seeing it now ?

The 9038 runs very high current (100mA vs 5mA)
9038 supports  DSD512, max 25MHz sampling, 50MHz I/V bandwidth.
44.1k CD Redbook in contrast requires 1.4MHz sampling , 2.8MHz I/V bandwidth
18x increase in bandwidth.

This causes the small output stages in chip opamps to slew rate limit

Why is it different with the 004 ?

Discrete opamp, lower open loop gain
Corresponding lower amounts of feedback
Very big output transistors
Handles the large current
The devices have very wide bandwidth, unity gain at 50MHz <-- could be be better


Here is the link to the Otala IEEE Paper
http://hifisonix.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/The-Theory-of-TIM-Matti-Otala.pdf

Read the abstract and conclusion if the math is too complicated to follow.


----------



## ESL57 (May 8, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Keep the following in mind when considering the topic of noise in your specific system
> 
> If you use speakers, what is the ambient noise level?
> Can you hear noise from your system with no inputs under the following situations
> ...


I have about 10 pairs of speakers in my collection (I like vintage ones), by far the most sensitive I have are Altec Lansing model 19 over 101db at 1m, their large horns detect the slightest noise inside the sound chain, Until I fix the problem in DSD, I couldn't put this DAC with the Altecs.
By the way B0bb, what are the smd op amps that our 004 have?. They are of quality or something better to put there?


----------



## b0bb (May 8, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> I have about 10 pairs of speakers in my collection (I like vintage ones), by far the most sensitive I have are Altec Lansing model 19 over 101db at 1m, their large horns detect the slightest noise inside the sound chain, Until I fix the problem in DSD, I couldn't put this DAC with the Altecs.
> By the way Bobb, what are the smd op amps that our 004 have?. They are of quality or something better to put there?


004 does not use SMD opamps in the I/V.
Your noise problems are related to the 1.2V regulator and/or the messy application of thermal glue and not the native noise floor of the 004.

Your DAC is a Gen 1.5x where the cost cutting has begun, notice the use of cheap ceramic instead of a proper Aluminum Polymer.
LKS started using the low cost, low power 74AC244 drivers so that they could get away with the cheap ceramic substitution.

If you want to further tackle the noise issue further, start by reversing these cheap shortcuts LKS took, replace the 74AC244 with the 74ALVC244 from Nexperia.
74ALVC244 has superior input signal conditioning and drive capability, very useful for the long copper traces on the large 004 board.


----------



## b0bb (May 8, 2021)

Topics like the DAC noisefloor and IMD are interesting academic topics and may not be audible.

Below are things that audibly improve the DAC performance

Replace CCHD-575 XO
Replacing the PET/Mylar caps in the output filter, the blue boxes.
Low TCR I/V resistor, a bigger high TCR (50-200ppm) resistor only goes part of the way
Vcom bypass with highvalue Wet Tantalum caps
Ferrite noise absorber sheets on the auxiliary supplies.
Fix poor decoupling of ground and powerplanes on Gen2s
Improve current delivery, especially the handling of load transients


These should be completed before spending time worrying about the effects of noisefloor or IMD


----------



## ESL57 (May 8, 2021)

b0bb said:


> 004 does not use SMD opamps in the I/V


Why is it different with the 004 ?


b0bb said:


> 004 does not use SMD opamps in the I/V.
> Your noise problems are related to the 1.2V regulator and/or the messy application of thermal glue and not the native noise floor of the 004


Why is it different with the 004 ?
Discrete opamp, lower open loop gain

I mean what model and reference are those 5-pin discrete opamp smd that have 6 holes around to maybe replace them with similar through-holes, I think I remember that long ago I investigated the code on the body (X L) and what I found most similar was a double transistor that did not I remember the reference.


----------



## b0bb (May 8, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Why is it different with the 004 ?
> 
> Why is it different with the 004 ?
> Discrete opamp, lower open loop gain
> ...


Not sure what you are referring to, opamp on 004 is discrete.
The thing with 6 holes around is the Jfet diffrential input transistor pair.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Not sure what you are referring to, opamp on 004 is discrete.
> The thing with 6 holes around is the Jfet diffrential input transistor pair.


Yes, that was what I meant


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> 004 no utiliza amplificadores operacionales SMD en I / V.
> Sus problemas de ruido están relacionados con el regulador de 1.2V y / o la aplicación desordenada de pegamento térmico y no con el piso de ruido nativo del 004.
> 
> Su DAC es un Gen 1.5x donde ha comenzado la reducción de costos, observe el uso de cerámica barata en lugar de un polímero de aluminio adecuado.
> ...





b0bb said:


> 004 does not use SMD opamps in the I/V.
> Your noise problems are related to the 1.2V regulator and/or the messy application of thermal glue and not the native noise floor of the 004.
> 
> Your DAC is a Gen 1.5x where the cost cutting has begun, notice the use of cheap ceramic instead of a proper Aluminum Polymer.
> ...


I also followed his advice with the 74..244, 74ALCV244 Nexperia instaled and polymer caps.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> I also followed his advice with the 74..244, 74ALCV244 Nexperia instaled and polymer caps.


Did you replace the ceramics in the other locations like

I2S receiver
SPDIF receiver
USB isolator
Microcontroller


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> 004 does not use SMD opamps in the I/V.
> Your noise problems are related to the 1.2V regulator and/or the messy application of thermal glue and not the native noise floor of the 004.
> 
> Your DAC is a Gen 1.5x where the cost cutting has begun, notice the use of cheap ceramic instead of a proper Aluminum Polymer.
> ...


Hi B0bb,

I tried this approach three weeks ago. It did not work out for me. I exchanged both AC244 against 74ALVC244 and added 820µF 16V Polymer Caps.
The DAC lost all of its micro details. I build everything back, and the micro details came back.

I think the Problem is, that the line driver has to drive against those 4 ceramic caps next to the most right 244.
But during these tests I did have success with getting rid of smeared middle tone. The HDMI receiver chip is supplied from the same regulator as both AC244 line drivers.

I added a 100µF 16 Polymer cap, and exchanged the ferrit bead against a small 5µH 0.2 Ohm choke I took from a broken hard drive.


----------



## b0bb (May 10, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Hi B0bb,
> 
> I tried this approach three weeks ago. It did not work out for me. I exchanged both AC244 against 74ALVC244 and added 820µF 16V Polymer Caps.
> The DAC lost all of its micro details. I build everything back, and the micro details came back.


You made more  than 1 change at a time

Do you know which change caused the problem?
Was it the 74ALVC244 or the 820uF caps?
Did you cover any of the signal traces going to the 9038's with ferrite sheets?

A couple more questions comments.

Did you complete the removal of the blue PET/Mylar caps [1] in the picture? They cause a lot of transient smearing.
A weaker line driver (74AC244)  will make the top end more pronounced, balancing out the negative effects of the blue PET caps.
Makes it hard to get more smoothness from the DAC later on if blue caps are not eliminated.
One of the blue caps is damaged.
Area [2] has up 50MHz running thru it, has it been cleaned up? High frequency response of the DAC will be reduced if you don't.
You should not be relying on the side effect of the weaker driver to compensate.




Did you remove this resistor, your analog output filter is quite different/changed if you did.
Did you do this to change the sound?


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> Replace CCHD-575 XO
> *Replacing the PET/Mylar caps in the output filter, the blue boxes.*
> Low TCR I/V resistor, a bigger high TCR (50-200ppm) resistor only goes part of the way
> Vcom bypass with highvalue Wet Tantalum caps
> ...



These two are next on my list to do.  I have the parts already.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Did you replace the ceramics in the other locations like
> 
> I2S receiver
> SPDIF receiver
> ...


I still need to change them in some of those circuits, currently enjoying the exuberant music that comes out of this dac, I made many changes at the same time and this is not a good habit to know if something is a step forward or backward. The problem is also having a good ear memory, sometimes the changes take time to establish, time passes and your auditory memory must be good to see what happened, I will have to buy another original used GEN1 without touching anything, so the I will be able to compare in direct AB mode, for me a 004 of your second hand below € 700 is a bargain of the hifi, that if, only for electronic handymen, abstain those who do not know anything, when Sabre (ESS) gets a better chip contrasted, I will sell or buy them the same dac that B0bb and Xoverman acquire, the game could continue in the future  .
By the way, in the firmwares after mine, LKS put memory of the independent DPLL number for PCM and DSD?, it seems that it already did it in 005, it is a drag to have to put 1 in PCM and 6 in DSD and be changing.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> I still need to change them in some of those circuits, currently enjoying the exuberant music that comes out of this dac, I made many changes at the same time and this is not a good habit to know if something is a step forward or backward. The problem is also having a good ear memory, sometimes the changes take time to establish, time passes and your auditory memory must be good to see what happened, I will have to buy another original used GEN1 without touching anything, so the I will be able to compare in direct AB mode, for me a 004 of your second hand below € 700 is a bargain of the hifi, that if, only for electronic handymen, abstain those who do not know anything, when Sabre (ESS) gets a better chip contrasted, I will sell or buy them the same dac that B0bb and Xoverman acquire, the game could continue in the future  .
> By the way, in the firmwares after mine, LKS put memory of the independent DPLL number for PCM and DSD?, it seems that it already did it in 005, it is a drag to have to put 1 in PCM and 6 in DSD and be changing.


By the way, in the firmwares after mine, LKS put memory of the independent DPLL number for PCM and DSD?, it seems that it already did it in 005, it is a drag to have to put 1 in PCM and 6 in DSD and be changing.

Wher did you get this information ? 

@b0bb   Did you hear anything about 2 memorys ( registers ) in the 004 ?


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Temas como el ruido de fondo del DAC y el IMD son temas académicos interesantes y pueden no ser audibles.
> 
> A continuación se muestra cosas que mejoran de forma audible el rendimiento del DAC
> 
> ...





Xoverman said:


> By the way, in the firmwares after mine, LKS put memory of the independent DPLL number for PCM and DSD?, it seems that it already did it in 005, it is a drag to have to put 1 in PCM and 6 in DSD and be changing.
> 
> Wher did you get this information ?
> 
> @b0bb   Did you hear anything about 2 memorys ( registers ) in the 004 ?


It is a question to those who have a firmware more recent than mine (17-04), I don't know if this changed later, Musetec 005 according to the manual already makes it independent DPLL for PCM and DSD.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> @b0bb   Did you hear anything about 2 memorys ( registers ) in the 004 ?


It is in the datasheet, separate registers for DSD and PCM.


----------



## JBP3

Hi there, is the following helpful? I vaguely understand it to be an Amanero card plug and play replacement and improvement, but I could be way off...

http://www.jlsounds.com/i2soverusb.html


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> It is a question to those who have a firmware more recent than mine (17-04), I don't know if this changed later, Musetec 005 according to the manual already makes it independent DPLL for PCM and DSD.


I can find that out.  As I allredy posted a good friend of mine has a 005.


----------



## Xoverman

Three weeks ago I implemented B0bb's capacitor upgrades on the front end off the 2 DAC chips. 
In my setup it brought quite some more bass definition and transparency.
Please excuse the dust, I run the DAC open all the time.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> 004 does not use SMD opamps in the I/V.
> Your noise problems are related to the 1.2V regulator and/or the messy application of thermal glue and not the native noise floor of the 004.
> 
> Your DAC is a Gen 1.5x where the cost cutting has begun, notice the use of cheap ceramic instead of a proper Aluminum Polymer.
> ...


@b0bb 
Did you totally remove the 20uF ceramic Caps? Because I left them and just added the 820uF polymer Caps.


----------



## b0bb (May 13, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> @b0bb
> Did you totally remove the 20uF ceramic Caps? Because I left them and just added the 820uF polymer Caps.


Early Gen1's  never had the 20uF ceramics, LKS used  470uF Nichicon FP polymers , remove the both of the ceramics.
Capacitance of large value ceramics changes with voltage by as much as 70% and they are sensitive to magnetic fields.

Change the smaller bypass cap to a 0.1uF NPO/C0G cap.  (Don't substitute with lesser dielectrics like X7R/X5U etc)


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Change the smaller bypass cap to a 0.1uF NPO/C0G cap. (Don't substitute with lesser dielectrics like X7R/X5U etc)



Also near the es9038s' regulators?


----------



## Xoverman (May 14, 2021)

Do you remember that I was talking about quite a HF problem in 004? I found another part of it.
When I made the last capacitor upgread of the digital supply of the two ess9038pro chips, I thought afterwards I could do the same with the supply of the clock.
But after soldering in a 820µF polymer capacitor the tonality got a bit better, but the focus got worse.
So what was happening there ?
Well, the large, very low-resistance polymer capacitor tried to help the capacitor in the power supply with its work. And that introduced lots of ripplecurent on the ground plan.

The solution to this problem is very simple in this case. LKS has provided a 0.1 µH ferrite bead in front of the capacitor to prevent HF from being radiated back into the device (remainder of the 004). I exchanged the 0.1µH ferrite bead for a 5µH ferrite bead and a 2.2 ohm resistor in series. I removed the 5µH ferrite bead from a broken 2.5  inch hard drive.
It is no problem to set a series resistor in series with the first power supply of the crystal clock because the power consumption always remains the same and there is another voltage regulator in front of the oscillator. The voltage drop across the 2.2 ohm resistor is about 0.2 V. I might even change it to 5.6 Ohms.

The result is overwhelming. The stage is extremely sharp. Transeins have become sharper. And all depth gradations are extremely focused.
I didn't expect that to be so extreme.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Not all versions of the NUC are good.
> The big central rectangle is the CPU.
> Good --> Left/Top: NUC8i3; 128MB L4 eDRAM cache, note 3 silicon dies, L4 Cache is the leftmost die.
> Mediocre --> Right/Bottom: NUC10i5; 3rd silicon die missing, no L4 Cache
> ...


My next step is to go from windows 10 to linux to reproduce my digital content, I tried without success of correct installation of Ap-linux (audiophile-linux), the volumio pc version has worked well for me and I have been able to verify that it recognizes my Gustard U16 with its exotic and rare ESS chip and makes it sing correctly. Which NUC option (processor-ram) do you recommend that is powerful enough to upload everything to DSD256 or maybe DSD512 on linux-hqplayer?


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Do you remember that I was talking about quite a HF problem in 004? I found another part of it.
> When I made the last capacitor upgread of the digital supply of the two ess9038pro chips, I thought afterwards I could do the same with the supply of the clock.
> But after soldering in a 820µF polymer capacitor the tonality got a bit better, but the focus got worse.
> So what was happening there ?
> ...


Xoverman and what do you think generates that HF noise, the GEN2 3.3v clock regulator chip and its 3.5Mhz oscillation, the 100MHz clock itself or the ES9038 chips themselves?, B0bb maybe our GEN1 and its 1A linear regulator and ultra low noise floor do not leave any HF in that area?


----------



## JBP3

JBP3 said:


> Hi there, is the following helpful? I vaguely understand it to be an Amanero card plug and play replacement and improvement, but I could be way off...
> 
> http://www.jlsounds.com/i2soverusb.html



Ok, quoting myself and responding. I contacted the supplier in the link asking if the board was an Amanero plug and play. Here is the response below. 



> Hi John,
> 
> Our I2SoverUSB board is not directly made to swap with Amanero, so the wiring will be different  but it's straight forward.
> We have Amanero styled board - but we need to do some more tests of it - possibly next week.
> ...



Here is the link to the AS web site where I first heard of this. There is an entire discussion in there about Amanero board replacements.

John


----------



## ESL57

JBP3 said:


> Ok, quoting myself and responding. I contacted the supplier in the link asking if the board was an Amanero plug and play. Here is the response below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do not know to what extent this module can be better than the original supplied with our 004, the clocks it includes are very low cost and the dac that I heard with xmos xu208 never touched me sonically.
Clock.....
https://www.digikey.es/product-deta...44-NZ2520SDA-49-152MHZ-NSC5083DCT-ND/13982386
The link does not work ?


----------



## JBP3

Sorry for the bad link to the AS discussion.

Here is a replacement link that should work. It points to a comment after the one I tried to reference above, scroll up from this link to see the original reference, and in fact the whole conversations above that. 

The comment in the link below is interesting, it is a serious thumbs up from @Superdad, the owner of Uptone Audio, for the JLSounds board.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...dio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=1132655

Someone from AS privately messaged me with the wiring required for the existing board, if you like I can post it, It is very simple, but I will wait for the Amanero version.


----------



## b0bb (May 15, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> My next step is to go from windows 10 to linux to reproduce my digital content, I tried without success of correct installation of Ap-linux (audiophile-linux), the volumio pc version has worked well for me and I have been able to verify that it recognizes my Gustard U16 with its exotic and rare ESS chip and makes it sing correctly. Which NUC option (processor-ram) do you recommend that is powerful enough to upload everything to DSD256 or maybe DSD512 on linux-hqplayer?


The NUC is the audio endpoint optimized for very low noise, its role is to buffer and flow control the data to the DAC.
Continue to use your existing PC to do the upsampling to DSD256/DSD512  (hqplayer) and send the output via ethernet to the NUC running NAA software.


----------



## b0bb (May 15, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Xoverman and what do you think generates that HF noise, the GEN2 3.3v clock regulator chip and its 3.5Mhz oscillation, the 100MHz clock itself or the ES9038 chips themselves?, B0bb maybe our GEN1 and its 1A linear regulator and ultra low noise floor do not leave any HF in that area?


The severity of the kinds of noise problems reported is very much lower on the Gen1s, no 3.5MHz  switched mode regulator to start with, but it does not fully explain the need for such noise mitigation measures.

@Xoverman has gone to extreme lengths to deal with noise, this suggests that specific 004 may be having problems with an external injection of noise.

[1] is the exposed connector for the Amanero card without any signal termination, the 6.8k pull-up termination resistors is built into the USB card.
When the card is removed there is no termination of that input.

[2] Logic low on the ISO7640, is 200mV, so it is quite sensitive to noise pickup and is likely entry point of the external noise

[3] is the microcontroller and is quite a noisy device, the noise being picked up by the unterminated isolator inputs.

This situation is quite bad for the 004 as the isolated end is connected to the line driver could be tri-stated
In that mode the impedance is quite high, allowing noise to leak into adjacent active lines, if not terminated.
I2S and USB share the same driver chip, USB input is tri-stated when I2S is active.

The problem can be dealt with by installing pull-up termination resistors.
(Removing the ISO7640 will make the problem worse and you will still need the pull-up resistors)


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> The severity of the kinds of noise problems reported is very much lower on the Gen1s, no 3.5MHz  switched mode regulator to start with, but it does not fully explain the need for such noise mitigation measures.
> 
> @Xoverman has gone to extreme lengths to deal with noise, this suggests that specific 004 may be having problems with an external injection of noise.
> 
> ...


A long time ago in this thread someone commented that by removing the module his dac became quieter. Also that the contacts chosen by LKS were unreliable (we already saw B0bb who replaced and improved them in his great mod of the amanero), a simple and fast option for those of us who do not use amanero would be to leave the module installed but without powering it with AC, no do you think?.


----------



## b0bb (May 15, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> A long time ago in this thread someone commented that by removing the module his dac became quieter. Also that the contacts chosen by LKS were unreliable (we already saw B0bb who replaced and improved them in his great mod of the amanero), a simple and fast option for those of us who do not use amanero would be to leave the module installed but without powering it with AC, no do you think?.


That won't work, signal lines coming off the ATMEL use passive pull-up, signal lines from the CPLD uses active termination.
In either case it needs a source of +3.3V, the ISO7640 requires 2 separate 3.3V supplies, one for each side.

If you do not want to use the Amanero, you need to add the pull-up resistors and still supply 3.3V to the dirty side of the ISO7640, unused digital inputs should always be terminated.

ISO7640 was never designed to run with only 1 of the 3.3V supplies.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> The severity of the kinds of noise problems reported is very much lower on the Gen1s, no 3.5MHz  switched mode regulator to start with, but it does not fully explain the need for such noise mitigation measures.
> 
> @Xoverman has gone to extreme lengths to deal with noise, this suggests that specific 004 may be having problems with an external injection of noise.
> 
> ...


I thought of that to, but it's a totally different problem that I will address in the future. 
Please B0bb & ESL57 can you please evaluat my findings? 
If you don't have a small inductor, just take the ferrite bead and put a 2.2 or 3.3 Ohm resistor in series.
I promise you will be surprised.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> My next step is to go from windows 10 to linux to reproduce my digital content, I tried without success of correct installation of Ap-linux (audiophile-linux), the volumio pc version has worked well for me and I have been able to verify that it recognizes my Gustard U16 with its exotic and rare ESS chip and makes it sing correctly. Which NUC option (processor-ram) do you recommend that is powerful enough to upload everything to DSD256 or maybe DSD512 on linux-hqplayer?


This might be a alternative for you. It solved all my USB noise problems. 
It's a fiber USB connection. At first I thought that it is crap. My first shot was to connect the Lindy directly to the singxer SU-6.
Everything sounded extremely distorted, but it worked. 
The problem was, the Lindy 5V output dosn't have enough current capability to drive the SU-6 directly. 
The problem is easely fixed by putting a self powered USB HUB in series.
Everything sounds more open and better layered with the fiber USB bridge than with my old cable setup. Now I can install my media PC far away from my stereo in the basement and run a 20m Fiber into the living room.


----------



## b0bb (May 15, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> I thought of that to, but it's a totally different problem that I will address in the future.
> Please B0bb & ESL57 can you please evaluat my findings?
> If you don't have a small inductor, just take the ferrite bead and put a 2.2 or 3.3 Ohm resistor in series.
> I promise you will be surprised.


I use OCXOs, 3.3ohm @300mA is 0.3W, too much heat, not practical.

Did you replace the Nichicon MUSE ?
It is effectively useless @100MHz, that cap is the first line of defence to reduce the powerline harmonics coming from the XO, replace with a polymer cap.
Both my Pulsar and SiTime XOs have onboard LDOs, so there is very little chance of the XO polluting the powerline, looks like the Accusllicon is a bit of a pig in that respect.

Another way to improve filtering is to increase the regulator input voltage, I am using 6V instead of 5V.
The primary input cap  now holds 20% more charge to help even out any groundplane bounce issues.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> I use OCXOs, 3.3ohm @300mA is 1W, too much heat , not practical.
> 
> Did you replace the Nichicon MUSE ?
> It is effectively useless @100MHz, that cap is the first line of defence to reduce the powerline harmonics coming from the XO, replace with a polymer cap.
> ...


Sorry, I forgot that you are one of the lucky ones that have a pulsar


----------



## ESL57 (May 15, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Pensé en eso, pero es un problema totalmente diferente que abordaré en el futuro.
> Por favor, B0bb y ESL57, ¿pueden evaluar mis hallazgos?
> Si no tiene un inductor pequeño, simplemente tome la perla de ferrita y coloque una resistencia de 2.2 o 3.3 Ohm en serie.
> Te prometo que te sorprenderás.


Message received loud and clear!  , I start looking for something of 5uH and also 3.3ohm, I was very happy with my unit finally closed and making it sing, but I will open it again when I have the coil and resistance. Xoverman I see that you are in love with the coils and you like to put them everywhere , it may be because of your experience with crossovers .


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> I use OCXOs, 3.3ohm @300mA is 1W, too much heat , not practical.
> 
> Did you replace the Nichicon MUSE ?
> It is effectively useless @100MHz, that cap is the first line of defence to reduce the powerline harmonics coming from the XO, replace with a polymer cap.
> ...


Good advice about increasing the input voltage of the regulators, I am still with 4.1v for the 3.3v and the 1.3v ones, now with the low-noise replacement modules of LM317 it is very easy, fast and comfortable to vary the voltages on them.


----------



## b0bb (May 15, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Message received loud and clear!  , I start looking for something of 5uH and also 3.3ohm, I was very happy with my unit finally closed and making it sing, but I will open it again when I have the coil and resistance. Xoverman I see that you are in love with the coils and you like to put them everywhere , it may be because of your experience with crossovers .


There are some important differences between the Gen1 and Gen2 boards that you need to be aware of.

Gen1: LKS made mistakes with the layout

[1] is the bypass cap for the DAC Analog output
[2] is the inductor going to the XO regulator
If you replace [2] it must be a *shielded inductor* to avoid leakage into the analog output of the 9038
The inductor saturation current 1A or better.




Gen2: LKS corrected the mistake.

No adjacent cap
@Xoverman,

[2] is the regulator current reference noise filter,
Making this bigger and/or using a plastic film cap may help reduce the  powerline inteference your XO is creating
The regulator serving the XO is for the XO only, not shared with other circuits so any filtering is dealing with problems created by the XO.
On Gen1 the 3.3V output goes to the internal oscillator on the 9038 (Pin25 VCCA), if that is the case with Gen2, filtering of the 3.3 output going to these pins may help reduce the noise ingress from your XO.


In order to get the full benefit of the high current capability of the 820uF FP caps, the inductor you are using must have a sufficiently high saturation current capacity.
Likely you ran into issues because of inadequate current handling capacity of the stock inductor on your board.
Once the inductor saturates its behavior may be unpredictable
You worked around the problem by using a current limiting resistor but this has undesirable side effects like increasing the output impedance of the power supply.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> There are some important differences between the Gen1 and Gen2 boards that you need to be aware of.
> 
> Gen1: LKS made mistakes with the layout
> 
> ...


Summing up: the next test is to eliminate capacitor "1" and try a coil "2" with better characteristics?
Perhaps these by dimensions could be well installed, ideal value or not? :
? :
https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/810-TMS252012ALM4R7M
or...
https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/704-MPI2510V2-4R7-R


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Message received loud and clear!  , I start looking for something of 5uH and also 3.3ohm, I was very happy with my unit finally closed and making it sing, but I will open it again when I have the coil and resistance. Xoverman I see that you are in love with the coils and you like to put them everywhere , it may be because of your experience with crossovers .


   yes maby. But there's also a nother reason. Before I started my own computer business I worked as a design engineer for electronics. My specialty was the design of ultra high precision instrumentation ADC's  .


----------



## Xoverman (May 16, 2021)

Yesterday I found the power supply error I was suspecting for so long. It really is a major design flow!!!! A beginner's Error.

It fixes the bass transparency and definition problem. Staging isn't layered but fluede now. Object's start to become organic. Echo's widened out. Very fascinating.
It also explains why my tests with low ESR bypass capacitors parallel to the primary analog capacitors degraded the sound.

This, as all of you will know is a standard power supply schematic.


----------



## Xoverman

This is what LKS build


----------



## b0bb (May 16, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Summing up: the next test is to eliminate capacitor "1" and try a coil "2" with better characteristics?
> Perhaps these by dimensions could be well installed, ideal value or not? :
> ? :
> https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/810-TMS252012ALM4R7M
> ...


Do not eliminate [1], it is the noise bypass for the DAC's Analog 3.3V supply

4.7uH is not a good value, beyond its resonance frequency it stops being an inductor between 20-25MHz




A 0.47uH inductor covers the 100Mhz range and that is the reason LKS used this value




Comes from the Coilcraft datasheet
https://www.mouser.es/datasheet/2/87/eaton-mpi25-v2-miniature-power-inductors-data-shee-1608772.pdf


Replace with the same value  0.47uH LKS used, a 4.7uH inductor will not be effective at 50-100MHz
This will allow powerline harmonics from the XO to leak into other parts of the DAC and that will change the sound.


----------



## MartinWT

Xoverman said:


> This is what LKS build



Are you saying the 16V regulator is not ground referenced?


----------



## Xoverman

The regulator get's an extreme amount of noise or ripple at it's input. And if you put a low ESR bypass capacitor parallel to the primary capacitor, then high frequency ripple becomes even more. And the regulator can't handle it anymore. 
The fix is very easy. Just open up the track going from the diodes to the relay, and solder a direct connection from the diodes to the capacitor on the bottom side of the PCB. Do this fix for the plus and minus branch of the power supply. 

This modification has a trumidus impact!


----------



## Xoverman

MartinWT said:


> Are you saying the 16V regulator is not ground referenced?


Sorry, forgot the GND. I corrected the missing GND


----------



## piaseczek

AuxInput said:


> LKS STOCK IMPRESSIONS
> 
> So this DAC has been on my list for a couple years.  I have done a lot of R&D and testing with different types of circuits and design approaches.  I will say that if I had to create and design a DAC, this LKS DAC does almost everything right.  Got the DAC on February 24th, but waited until now to post my experiences (it took this long to go through all that).
> 
> ...



In the newest version of the 004 there is the 270uF and 100uF polymer cap for the clock's regulator. 
Maybe they are the right values without changing anything more if there is a problem with the 820uF polymer cap...


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Esto es lo que construye LKS


This time the solution is not clear to me, I do not see the difference on the 2 diagrams drawn, I only see putting the positive of the bridge below to capacitor with a thick wire and the same for the negative branch, it is no longer equally connected by above the pcb originally?  from the bridge to the direct capacitor through the cut track? I have my dac closed to see and measure on the circuit at this moment.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> This time the solution is not clear to me, I do not see the difference on the 2 diagrams drawn, I only see putting the positive of the bridge below to capacitor with a thick wire and the same for the negative branch, it is no longer equally connected by above the pcb originally?  from the bridge to the direct capacitor through the cut track? I have my dac closed to see and measure on the circuit at this m


There is a huge amount of ripple current between a rectifier and the first capacitor. Noise on this part of the pcb track is tremindus. Most noise in the hole DAC system.
At the beginning of the track starting at the rectifier, because of the resistance of the PCB track, noise is the largest.
At the end of the tracks right on the poles of the capacitor there's almost no noise. So when you build a power supply, rectifier tracks first allways go to a big capacitor and then *from their* to the regulator circuit. Try it. Its easy to do und brings the DAC reale on a totally new level.


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> There is a huge amount of ripple current between a rectifier and the first capacitor. Noise on this part of the pcb track is tremindus. Most noise in the hole DAC system.
> At the beginning of the track starting at the rectifier, because of the resistance of the PCB track, noise is the largest.
> At the end of the tracks right on the poles of the capacitor there's almost no noise. So when you build a power supply, rectifier tracks first allways go to a big capacitor and then *from their* to the regulator circuit. Try it. Its easy to do und brings the DAC reale on a totally new level.


Now yes, I think I already understood, that long track is a source of ripple radiation towards the regulation, making it as short as possible between the rectifier and the capacitor is ideal, it is more a bad design of the pcb. By the way I would like to measure the before and after the mod, an oscilloscope usually has about 5mv sensitivity per division, I have an ac millivoltimeter from 2hz to 12mhz according to specifications 1mv sensitivity, do you think I will see that ripple easily in that area with some of these instruments ? I stopped updating my theoretical knowledge a couple of decades ago, as did my instrumentation , but don't let my repair skills rust from both conventional and smd electronics.


----------



## oldearwax (May 17, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> There is a huge amount of ripple current between a rectifier and the first capacitor. Noise on this part of the pcb track is tremindus. Most noise in the hole DAC system.


Snubber, a small capacitor between the secondary and rectifier, may tame the ringing ?
https://neurochrome.com/pages/rectification-snubbers
https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/tutorials/power-supplies/snubbering/


----------



## b0bb (May 18, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> By the way I would like to measure the before and after the mod, an oscilloscope usually has about 5mv sensitivity per division, I have an ac millivoltimeter from 2hz to 12mhz according to specifications 1mv sensitivity, do you think I will see that ripple easily in that area with some of these instruments ? I stopped updating my theoretical knowledge a couple of decades ago, as did my instrumentation , but don't let my repair skills rust from both conventional and smd electronics.


Easy to do





Here are the results on my Gen1

DC voltage: 21V
Peak ripple voltage: 167mV --> 118mV rms

0.56% ripple voltage at the input to the 16V regulator

Make the measurement like the above before deciding if you really need to make the modification.
Your AC millivoltmeter is more than adequate for the job, the line frequency in my trace is 120Hz

The charging current can be estimated given the linear voltage ramp
ΔV=167mV, Δt=2ms, C=10000uF

I=835mA, relatively low ripple current for the 10000uF Mundorf cap.

(If you want to measure actual ripple current, the trace on the board has to be cut and an 0.1ohm current sense resistor added, or use a current probe if you have it)

Not really sure what is going on with @Xoverman's DAC


----------



## ESL57 (May 18, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Easy to do
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks B0bb once again, now we know that we can find approximately ripple in that area of the circuit, I change the mundorf  4700uf to 8200uf, I will have something similar there or slightly worse, I will do 2 tests here, 1-one the same as Xoverman with a bridge and 2- another with a shielded coil and of great current capacity for each capacitor instead of the bridge, to have that we measure noise later in the upper track. Also listen if the 2 changes are audible in our GEN1 as Xoverman is perceiving them. 
Point 2 is not viable according to my calculations, a coil (choke) with a value of henries is needed and it is not feasible due to its large size to reach the necessary current, it is absurd I think. point 1 coming soon.


----------



## ESL57 (May 18, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Easy to do
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By the  way B0bb your ac power is 60Hz?


----------



## ESL57

Look at what Pioneer did in 1993 in a high-end cassette deck, it put copper sheets in the main capacitors, in addition to sheets in other small ones, in relays, chips etc, behind the copper wall is the transformer, this is not on average quality gadgets. This seems to us to something similar to what we did around here.


----------



## ESL57

oldearwax said:


> Snubber, a small capacitor between the secondary and rectifier, may tame the ringing ?
> https://neurochrome.com/pages/rectification-snubbers
> https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/tutorials/power-supplies/snubbering/


Snubber seems good at shorting the RF to ground, but I think Xoverman what I avoid is radiating 100Hz of ripple in his enhancement


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> Thanks B0bb once again, now we know that we can find approximately ripple in that area of the circuit, I change the mundorf  4700uf to 8200uf, I will have something similar there or slightly worse, I will do 2 tests here, 1-one the same as Xoverman with a bridge and 2- another with a shielded coil and of great current capacity for each capacitor instead of the bridge, to have that we measure noise later in the upper track. Also listen if the 2 changes are audible in our GEN1 as Xoverman is perceiving them.
> Point 2 is not viable according to my calculations, a coil (choke) with a value of henries is needed and it is not feasible due to its large size to reach the necessary current, it is absurd I think. point 1 coming soon.


Try to avoid cutting tracks on the PCB if possible, it cannot be replaced easily, meaning you need to get it from LKS or recycle another 004.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> By the  way B0bb your ac power is 60Hz?


Yes


----------



## b0bb (May 18, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Snubber seems good at shorting the RF to ground, but I think Xoverman what I avoid is radiating 100Hz of ripple in his enhancement



This problem is best fixed at the source by using a large value cap for the primary filter cap if you are concerned about this.

There is only 120mV of AC ripple when using a 10000uF cap, it is not going to radiate to any significant degree.
DC voltage  is 21V


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Try to avoid cutting tracks on the PCB if possible, it cannot be replaced easily, meaning you need to get it from LKS or recycle another 004.


Yes, I have an alternative plan for this, I thought to connect the pins of the diodes at that point outside the pcb and from there connect the capacitor, reversible system and without visible effects in case in our GEN1 it is not so beneficial.


----------



## ESL57

A friend from around here told him the sonic benefits of my 004 once improved, then he invited me to let my dac meet his at his house and they would sing together, a shooting from you to you, it seems like a machine of the same characteristics initially to ours .... but .... its oversized external power supply of 4kg of weight, the internal engineering, Lundahl output transformers and finally the price, I am a little fearful although I go with faith. My friend has a Lumin X1 in his house.
https://www.audioelite.es/blog/lumin-x1/
He can be a tough rival for our beloved dac, we'll see and comment


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Try to avoid cutting tracks on the PCB if possible, it cannot be replaced easily, meaning you need to get it from LKS or recycle another 004.


Why not ? You can always bring the cut with a short piece of wire again.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Yes, I have an alternative plan for this, I thought to connect the pins of the diodes at that point outside the pcb and from there connect the capacitor, reversible system and without visible effects in case in our GEN1 it is not so beneficial.


Its not the same thing. Because the track is also radiating electromagnetic. ( Inductive )


----------



## b0bb (May 20, 2021)

Noise measurement setup, probe attached to +16V output of Analog regulator.
The regulator has minor modification for the filter caps on input and output and better quality resistors on the shunt leg of the regulator.
Mostly the stock LKS configuration for everything else.





730uV AC noise measured on Fluke 87V True RMS meter




Scope trace:
The 16V output has a lot of HF noise, the "speed-bumps" breakthrough of ripple.
HF Noise is the solid yellow fuzz and the spikes.
This HF noise is from the load, rectifier side trace posted earlier shows no sign of this noise

The ripple breakthtough is an area for making an improvement.


----------



## b0bb

Noise at the XLR audio output.

Meter shows 100uV AC, measured 2-3 mins after power on, this falls to zero when the DAC warms up.
I estimate noise to be about half of the least significant digit about 50uV
Number is relative to zero out external inteference given the very small AC voltage.

Full scale output is 4V, this gives a SNR of 98dB for my 004, this is at the limit of what the Fluke AC millivoltmeter can measure.

An Audio Precision measurement box would quite useful here.


----------



## b0bb (May 20, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Why not ? You can always bring the cut with a short piece of wire again.


Can you post the measurements like ripple voltage and current with your mods.
A before and after measurement would also be nice.

As you can see from the scope trace there is high frequency (HF) noise, the scope bandwidth had to be limited to 20MHz to clearly see the ripple breakthrough.

You cut into the ground plane in multiple places, and it cannot be completely restored with just wire, you have to patch it up with copper foil.
The 004 needs every bit of HF noise suppression it can  get.


----------



## Xoverman (May 20, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Noise measurement setup, probe attached to +16V output of Analog regulator.
> The regulator has minor modification for the filter caps on input and output and better quality resistors on the shunt leg of the regulator.
> Mostly the stock LKS configuration for everything else.
> 
> ...



Hi B0bb believe me you can not use this kind of measurement setup to measure nose this low. Most of the noise you are seeing is picked up by the scope goundclip loop, and ac mains earth loop from the scope power supply.
You can start by using a coax cable and soldering it directly across the capacitor or the measuring point that you want to measure, and then connect the other end directly to the scope input.
Better is to use a battery supplied differential probe. I build mine with a AD524 I still had lying around.
And then you better have a Battery powered scope, or a low coupling capacitance isolation transformer for the scope.
With this setup i was able to clearly see the lsb steps of 18bit DAC's in operation. ( Even the glitches they produced )


----------



## b0bb (May 20, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Hi B0bb believe me you can not use this kind of measurement setup to measure nose this low. Most of the noise you are seeing is picked up by the scope goundclip loop, and ac mains earth loop from the scope power supply.
> You can start by using a coax cable and soldering it directly across the capacitor or the measuring point that you want to measure, and then connect the other end directly to the scope input.
> Better is to use a battery supplied differential probe. I build mine with a AD524 I still had lying around.
> And then you better have a Battery powered scope, or a low coupling capacitance isolation transformer.
> With this setup i was able to clearly see the lsb steps of 18bit DAC's in operation. ( Even the glitches they produced )


Sure, provide your measurement numbers to show how your mod made a difference.
Use whatever method you consider appropriate.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Sure, provide your measurement numbers to show how your mod made a difference.
> Use whatever method you consider appropriate.


There is no problem without a solution, all users of the LKS004 will buy 2 units of the Audio Presicion Apx555 together, one for B0bb and another for Xoverman so they will have the same measurement method ,  when we fix and optimize all our audio equipment, we put them for sale, they are only $ 56,000, not much, there are dacs for hi-fi of $ 20,000 and more for sale and they have their clients who buy them. Jokes aside, we had a good time with an LKS004 that is so relatively easy to modify.


----------



## Xoverman

Please read this application note to better understand what I am talking about.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> There is no problem without a solution, all users of the LKS004 will buy 2 units of the Audio Presicion Apx555 together, one for B0bb and another for Xoverman so they will have the same measurement method ,  when we fix and optimize all our audio equipment, we put them for sale, they are only $ 56,000, not much, there are dacs for hi-fi of $ 20,000 and more for sale and they have their clients who buy them. Jokes aside, we had a good time with an LKS004 that is so relatively easy to modify.


By the way the Audio Presicion Apx555 has input isolation transformers to avoid ground loop problems


----------



## ESL57 (May 20, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Please read this application note to better understand what I am talking about.


How well this application of Linear, very instructive and very detailed, interesting the use of the cookie tin, copper, mu-metal to close that circuit that is capable of amplifying noises of up to 2nV and with 3 outputs, 2 of them with low pass filters


----------



## b0bb (May 20, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Please read this application note to better understand what I am talking about.


This appnote talks about very low noise measurement around 2nV/√Hz.

In your latest mod you said there was "massive" ripple at the input of the +16V regulator, requiring cutting of the track on the PCB.

2nV/√Hz over 20-20kHz = 283nV



If "massive" means 283nV, do we really have a problem?
(DC voltage input to regulator is 21V)


----------



## ESL57

ESL57 said:


> There is no problem without a solution, all users of the LKS004 will buy 2 units of the Audio Presicion Apx555 together, one for B0bb and another for Xoverman so they will have the same measurement method ,  when we fix and optimize all our audio equipment, we put them for sale, they are only $ 56,000, not much, there are dacs for hi-fi of $ 20,000 and more for sale and they have their clients who buy them. Jokes aside, we had a good time with an LKS004 that is so relatively easy to modify.


Speaking of the most expensive dac hi-fi, here is another that may be among them, the MSB "SELECT DAC II", made in the USA are about $ 130,000 in cost, it seems that there is controversy in the measurement data that the manufacturer attaches in fact this page lasts seconds and takes you out of there automatically.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/msb-dacs-measurements.9112/#post-734758
I always thought that we do not have enough quality recordings (Mastering Engineering) to enjoy such an expensive dac, there are albums that we like and they will spoil the best dac in the world because of how bad they sound, if the raw material is not good everything else on the sound chain won't be worth it.
Reflection on Hi-res formats (Japanese)
https://sandalaudio.blogspot.com/2015/09/blog-post_17.html


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> This appnote talks about very low noise measurement around 2nV/√Hz.
> 
> In your latest mod you said there was "massive" ripple at the input of the +16V regulator, requiring cutting of the track on the PCB.
> 
> ...


Well, if output dynamics of the DAC is +/- 4V then the lowest bit LSB ( 24Bit ) is 477nV. That's not that far off. 
But I can promis you, we have way more noise in the 004. W


b0bb said:


> Noise at the XLR audio output.
> 
> Meter shows 100uV AC, measured 2-3 mins after power on, this falls to zero when the DAC warms up.
> I estimate noise to be about half of the least significant digit about 50uV
> ...





b0bb said:


> Noise measurement setup, probe attached to +16V output of Analog regulator.
> The regulator has minor modification for the filter caps on input and output and better quality resistors on the shunt leg of the regulator.
> Mostly the stock LKS configuration for everything else.
> 
> ...



Watch this video, it explains how it has to be dunn. The interesting stuff starts at 20 min.

I had to learn that the hard way 30 years ago


----------



## ESL57

Video conclusion:
PCB design is an art to be learned.
Do not make antennas on the pcb
There are more than a million noisy arduinos ONE boards in the world
This video deserves a couple of cuts on my dear LKS004 pcb, just to experiment with it before and after the modification, I don't think it devalues much more, I have seen LKS004 for sale for € 500, like any dac used every day that passes its value is reduced.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Video conclusion:
> PCB design is an art to be learned.
> Do not make antennas on the pcb
> There are more than a million noisy arduinos ONE boards in the world
> This video deserves a couple of cuts on my dear LKS004 pcb, just to experiment with it before and after the modification, I don't think it devalues much more, I have seen LKS004 for sale for € 500, like any dac used every day that passes its value is reduced.


You are a brave man


----------



## Papagallo

b0bb said:


> This appnote talks about very low noise measurement around 2nV/√Hz.
> 
> In your latest mod you said there was "massive" ripple at the input of the +16V regulator, requiring cutting of the track on the PCB.
> 
> ...


----------



## Papagallo

Hi there, I can't contribute anything to your technical discussions, but after the modification by Xoverman on my DAC, the sound image has improved significantly. Bigger stage, more intensive demarcation of voices and instruments and a much quieter background are my experiences.


----------



## ESL57

Papagallo said:


> Hi there, I can't contribute anything to your technical discussions, but after the modification by Xoverman on my DAC, the sound image has improved significantly. Bigger stage, more intensive demarcation of voices and instruments and a much quieter background are my experiences.


Hello Papagallo, welcome to this meeting place of the madmen of endless improvements. Just to say that in these times for me it has been a pleasure to have people like B0bb and Xoverman who have dedicated their time and knowledge to explain the technical details of this dac, and for free and disinterestedly to applaud in these times. That is why I for my part have always listened to them as much as possible and have followed their advice. No one has the absolute truth of anything, but we are all free to believe it or not.


----------



## b0bb (May 21, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Well, if output dynamics of the DAC is +/- 4V then the lowest bit LSB ( 24Bit ) is 477nV. That's not that far off.
> But I can promis you, we have way more noise in the 004. W
> 
> 
> ...




The measured noise floor of the 9038Pro in an actual working DAC is about -120dB or about 4000nV.
4000nV more than 8x difference.

Why are you concerned about measuring values so far below the DAC's noise floor?

Lets get back to basics the we can actually measure with the common tool like an AC multimeter.
The main source of ripple at the +16V regulator input, is the 50Hz AC line frequency, making  it at 100Hz at the capacitor.

The video you posted concerns itself with making measurements with high speed signals, 50Hz is very slow compared to this.
Add a low pass filter if you are truly concerned.

Measure the AC voltage at the primary capacitor terminals, that is the ripple voltage.

The video you posted mentioned 2 things of note

Avoid making RF stub antennas
Unintentional parasitic capacitance

I had previously pointed out similar issues  to you, they should be addressed if you accept what the video is saying.
There are more items if you are interested


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> Video conclusion:
> PCB design is an art to be learned.
> Do not make antennas on the pcb
> There are more than a million noisy arduinos ONE boards in the world
> This video deserves a couple of cuts on my dear LKS004 pcb, just to experiment with it before and after the modification, I don't think it devalues much more, I have seen LKS004 for sale for € 500, like any dac used every day that passes its value is reduced.


I hope you watched the video to the end, suggest you watch it again  before cutting up your board, especially the discussions of continuous return plane.


----------



## b0bb

@Xoverman, please fix your relay mod schematic to include the missing diodes, people are starting to try your mods.



oldearwax said:


> No fly-back diode (built-in uln2003) across the relay ?


----------



## b0bb (May 21, 2021)

Papagallo said:


> Hi there, I can't contribute anything to your technical discussions, but after the modification by Xoverman on my DAC, the sound image has improved significantly. Bigger stage, more intensive demarcation of voices and instruments and a much quieter background are my experiences.


The quoted research paper does not do anything to explain what is happening.

As a group we have been doing the part swapping on the 004 for the last 4 years and we are coming pretty close to hitting the limit on total forward progress.
We have also been quite sloppy in not taking the time to measure the before and after effects of the changes that are being made.

The next step is to more complicated modifications like

Fixing the layout and trace mistakes LKS made
Modifying discrete circuits in the I/V and Analog regulator.
Margin for error here is quite small and some form of  measurements are needed to keep track of the progress and changes.
A mistake might mean blowing up the DAC for example making the output transistors faster without checking for stability, it can burn out very quickly.

The cap+rectifier mod is simple to measure and neatly avoids many of the measurement problems mentioned in the youtube video.
This is an important first step in making measurements on the DAC with simple things like a multimeter without spending large sums of money on equipment.
Some of the differential probes mentioned in the video can cost more than the 004 itself, typically 2k USD.


----------



## Papagallo

ESL57 said:


> Hello Papagallo, welcome to this meeting place of the madmen of endless improvements. Just to say that in these times for me it has been a pleasure to have people like B0bb and Xoverman who have dedicated their time and knowledge to explain the technical details of this dac, and for free and disinterestedly to applaud in these times. That is why I for my part have always listened to them as much as possible and have followed their advice. No one has the absolute truth of anything, but we are all free to believe it or not.


Hello ESL57, thank you very much for your kind welcome. I see it exactly the same as you do and hope that the good cooperation within this group will continue for a long time. I have been quietly accompanying you for some time and can only confirm: The tonal improvements as results of this group are simply extraordinary.


----------



## Papagallo

b0bb said:


> The quoted research paper does not do anything to explain what is happening.
> 
> As a group we have been doing the part swapping on the 004 for the last 4 years and we are coming pretty close to hitting the limit on total forward progress.
> We have also been quite sloppy in not taking the time to measure the before and after effects of the changes that are being made.
> ...


hello bObb, I see your point. Unfortunately, I am not able to form a qualified opinion on the technical issues myself. So far, my impression is that your modifications bring significant progress, even if one or the other remained controversial. My only - admittedly not always reliable - measuring devices are my ears. The tonal improvements that xovermann has made in the last 2 years with the modifications you have introduced and his own contributed modifications are really extraordinary.


----------



## ESL57 (May 22, 2021)

The world of audio and audiophiles has always been full of subjectivity, let's remember a few sentences:
The sound is now holographic, it has widened to the sides and upwards, now I hear things that I did not know existed in my recordings before, the sound no longer comes out of the speaker now it comes out throughout the room, the singer is now by my side. I don't think the Apx555 instrument has a menu to measure these parameters. I always lean on the side of what can be demonstrated with measurements but I recognize that the audio is somewhat more complex than this and there are acoustic details that are not easily measurable.
I am with B0bb in the measurements.....
We should have measured the before and after of the Donuts for example, we missed this detail
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-15113428
Look at Mr. Mad Scientist, he put a piece of mysterious material on the area of the analog rectifier diodes, it was not misdirected in its location.


----------



## Xoverman (May 22, 2021)

b0bb said:


> The quoted research paper does not do anything to explain what is happening.
> 
> As a group we have been doing the part swapping on the 004 for the last 4 years and we are coming pretty close to hitting the limit on total forward progress.
> We have also been quite sloppy in not taking the time to measure the before and after effects of the changes that are being made.
> ...


Hey everyone, I get the point. We should measure more. It's just so time consuming. And as bin pointed out, we all have the ultimate measurement instrumentation build in. Our ears. Of course, thay are not reliable and reproducible, we all know that of course. Still they some how give us a feeling that things sound better or worse or just right.
I started of building my first amplifier's when I was 16. Before that I just took old one's apart. I think when you start off with something that early, you don't  just aquire knolage and understanding about a discipline but all so something like a feeling. Intuition ?
I'm  just telling you all that so you can better understand why I'm doing some things that don't seem very logical at the first glance.

@b0bb.
I really appreciate and admirer what you have done and achieved with all your different projects. And I must say I also learnd a lot during this project and forum you. So thank you for that. I guess what's so wonderful about this forum is that everyone has a slightly different perspective and approach in solving problems. It's so interesting.


----------



## ESL57 (May 23, 2021)

Improvements can be made almost continuous and infinite, sometimes they are cheap and easy or they can be expensive and / or complicated, most users like the first not so much the second. It crossed my mind a few days ago, that we design a better powerful and ultra-clean external power supply in an elegant box, it should be a higher power source than what we currently have, which would be with connection like Lumin X1, transformers Current toroids are valid and some other element, perhaps it would be enough to make it from 4 twin sources of 5v, also 16.5v and -16.5v together with the ac output for USB modules. Yesterday I was able to compare a Lumin X1 with my LKS004, sorry to say that LKS004 came a lot closer but Lumin X1 is on a higher level, also this Lumin had the source upgrade power supply that costs $ 2500. I still think that our Dac has more hidden potential but maybe the money and effort to take it to a higher degree is too much.
What do you think B0bb and Xoverman?  is worth a well designed external power supply ?.

By the way I told my friend what a LKS004 plus modifications is worth and after that we both agree: if you have money in your account, buy the X1, but the modified LKS004 sounds so good that there is no € 10,000 difference in sound, even though Lumin X1 is higher.


----------



## b0bb (May 23, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Improvements can be made almost continuous and infinite, sometimes they are cheap and easy or they can be expensive and / or complicated, most users like the first not so much the second. It crossed my mind a few days ago, that we design a better powerful and ultra-clean external power supply in an elegant box, it should be a higher power source than what we currently have, which would be with connection like Lumin X1, transformers Current toroids are valid and some other element, perhaps it would be enough to make it from 4 twin sources of 5v, also 16.5v and -16.5v together with the ac output for USB modules. Yesterday I was able to compare a Lumin X1 with my LKS004, sorry to say that LKS004 came a lot closer but Lumin X1 is on a higher level, also this Lumin had the source upgrade power supply that costs $ 2500. I still think that our Dac has more hidden potential but maybe the money and effort to take it to a higher degree is too much.
> What do you think B0bb and Xoverman?  is worth a well designed external power supply ?.
> 
> By the way I told my friend what a LKS004 plus modifications is worth and after that we both agree: if you have money in your account, buy the X1, but the modified LKS004 sounds so good that there is no € 10,000 difference in sound, even though Lumin X1 is higher.


Try an external dc supply of ± 21V, remove the primary filter cap and rectifier, retain the existing discrete regulator.

You might try the test again with the SU-6 instead of U16, U16 has no isolation.

The 2.5k Lumin PSU is conventional using very good quality caps  (Nichicon UCZ and UCD) and regulators LT 30xx series





You could use similar parts in the 004, the LT30xx is newer and higher performance than the TPS7A47, higher current capability

I used the  LT3083 in the auxillary regulator to control the noise





The thru-hole equivalents of the UCZ and UCD is the UBY.
Use here on the digital and analog supplies


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Try an external dc supply of ± 21V, remove the primary filter cap and rectifier, retain the existing discrete regulator.
> 
> You might try the test again with the SU-6 instead of U16, U16 has no isolation.
> 
> ...


The difficult thing about that special X1 power source is to find where the $ 2,500 is, I have not seen them yet in the components of that photo, I do not see something so extremely special or expensive inside.


----------



## b0bb (May 23, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> The difficult thing about that special X1 power source is to find where the $ 2,500 is, I have not seen them yet in the components of that photo, I do not see something so extremely special or expensive inside.


That is correct.

This also means closing the performance gap is easier than you think if you know what needs to be done and the extra amount of performance improvement  that could have had.

Looking at this from a different perspective, this is called making money from those who cannot make these kinds of changes by themselves.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> That is correct.
> 
> This also means closing the performance gap is easier that you think if you know what needs to be done and the amount of performance improvement  that could have had.
> 
> Looking at this from a different perspective, this is called making money from those who can make these kinds of changes by themselves.


I agree B0bb, maybe Lumin's success in his product is to worry about making the power supply external and removing all the noise from the primary part of the power supply from inside his dac.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> I agree B0bb, maybe Lumin's success in his product is to worry about making the power supply external and removing all the noise from the primary part of the power supply from inside his dac.


Yes, that is about all it is.
This should give you some direction on what to do next.


----------



## wersuss

Hello, i installed Vishay trim pots , left channel adjusted very easy to 0 DC ,but right channel fluctuating very much. Pins 2-1 set fine no fluctuation but pins 2-3 unstable impossible to set. What could be wrong? Same with RCA.


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Hello, i installed Vishay trim pots , left channel adjusted very easy to 0 DC ,but right channel fluctuating very much. Pins 2-1 set fine no fluctuation but pins 2-3 unstable impossible to set. What could be wrong? Same with RCA.


Take close-up pictures and post photos of the pots both the working and non working sides.


----------



## ESL57

wersuss said:


> Hello, i installed Vishay trim pots , left channel adjusted very easy to 0 DC ,but right channel fluctuating very much. Pins 2-1 set fine no fluctuation but pins 2-3 unstable impossible to set. What could be wrong? Same with RCA.


I adjust it without sound with the dac saying "unlock" , so it must be stable.
There are many components that intervene there, even any change in the V / I resistance or associated capacitors, even welding residues can cause the voltage to vary. As B0bb says, helping in the distance is only possible with several photos of the entire area.


----------



## wersuss (May 25, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Take close-up pictures and post photos of the pots both the working and non working sides.





ESL57 said:


> I adjust it without sound with the dac saying "unlock" , so it must be stable.
> There are many components that intervene there, even any change in the V / I resistance or associated capacitors, even welding residues can cause the voltage to vary. As B0bb says, helping in the distance is only possible with several photos of the entire area.


Here pictures, the most right one XLR trimmer fluctuates.
Removed trim pot and can see some damage on trace, I remember not long ago somehow i managed to short xlr while swapping cables and right channel went quiet until i switched DAC off and on again.


----------



## ESL57 (May 25, 2021)

wersuss said:


> Here pictures, the most right one XLR trimmer fluctuates.
> Removed trim pot and can see some damage on trace, I remember not long ago somehow i managed to short xlr while swapping cables and right channel went quiet until i switched DAC off and on again.


Maybe you have some cold solders, they do not look too bright on the pads, you should review them with the soldering iron again and clean the flux remains with isopropyl alcohol, if this does not improve, check the voltage on all the adjust resistors pins with a multimeter, to see if something is not getting there correctly, you must rule out possibilities.
If the problem is present the balanced signal potentiometers will transfer equally to the unbalanced rca


----------



## wersuss (May 25, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Maybe you have some cold solders, they do not look too bright on the pads, you should review them with the soldering iron again and clean the flux remains with isopropyl alcohol, if this does not improve, check the voltage on all the adjust resistors pins with a multimeter, to see if something is not getting there correctly, you must rule out possibilities.
> If the problem is present the balanced signal potentiometers will transfer equally to the unbalanced rca


Thank you. Some update when switching on unit all 3 trimmer resistors showed stable around 0v , but that right one 4.11v!  turning resistor down to around 0v goes very fast not like others. But doesn't stay stable voltage goes up and down. Like it's too sensitive. I have tried swapping resistor with other channel still same so trimmer is fine.
Edit : measured voltage at trimmers all of them around 1.65 -1.66V and the troubled one one pin 3.47V and other 3.15V


----------



## b0bb (May 25, 2021)

wersuss said:


> Thank you. Some update when switching on unit all 3 trimmer resistors showed stable around 0v , but that right one 4.11v!  turning resistor down to around 0v goes very fast not like others. But doesn't stay stable voltage goes up and down. Like it's too sensitive. I have tried swapping resistor with other channel still same so trimmer is fine.
> Edit : measured voltage at trimmers all of them around 1.65 -1.66V and the troubled one one pin 3.47V and other 3.15V


Looks like a cold solder joint problem, clean off the old solder and try again.
Are you using leaded or lead free solder?
Second one requires higher temps and never mix the 2 types of solder on the same joint.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> Looks like a cold solder joint problem, clean off the old solder and try again.
> Are you using leaded or lead free solder?
> Second one requires higher temps and never mix the 2 types of solder on the same joint.


It's mundorf silver gold or so, i don't like how it flows, well it doesn't flow or shine at all. Original was Cardas and it's better. I will try to clean. Thank you


----------



## ESL57

wersuss said:


> It's mundorf silver gold or so, i don't like how it flows, well it doesn't flow or shine at all. Original was Cardas and it's better. I will try to clean. Thank you


Maybe you are not applying the correct temperature, it does not seem that it manages to melt that solder alloy
Does the unstable channel sound correct ?, clean and without noise?


----------



## wersuss

ESL57 said:


> Maybe you are not applying the correct temperature, it does not seem that it manages to melt that solder alloy
> Does the unstable channel sound correct ?, clean and without noise?


It sounded fine, have not listened yet with new trim pots. What's the limit of mV DC for use?


----------



## ESL57

wersuss said:


> It sounded fine, have not listened yet with new trim pots. What's the limit of mV DC for use?


For example, how much does the DC measure in its unstable rca output? A high value beyond millivolts is a symptom of a serious breakdown in some component or perhaps a short circuit, that is dangerous for the amplifiers and the speakers if they do not have DC protection. .


----------



## wersuss (May 25, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> For example, how much does the DC measure in its unstable rca output? A high value beyond millivolts is a symptom of a serious breakdown in some component or perhaps a short circuit, that is dangerous for the amplifiers and the speakers if they do not have DC protection. .


Lowest seen was -9mv to 10mv , most time sits around -5 to 5mV jumps around very fast though. Tried getting closest to 0 with XLR trimmer, as soon as closer to 0 it shoots away. Closer to 0 more sensitive to trim. I think it's something more serious then.


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## ESL57 (May 26, 2021)

wersuss said:


> Lowest seen was -9mv to 10mv , most time sits around -5 to 5mV jumps around very fast though. Tried getting closest to 0 with XLR trimmer, as soon as closer to 0 it shoots away. Closer to 0 more sensitive to trim. I think it's something more serious then.


It does not seem something so alarming and serious, it is true that finding the 0mv point is not something of absolute stability and you can appreciate that when you are going to reach zero there may be a small sudden jump. Repair cold welds on any component that has been changed in recent times and clean them of residues. Listen to both channels after, possibly everything is correct.
There is another test that B0bb did with a audio files at 50Hz and 1khz to see the equality of the output levels.....
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-14689266
If the levels are good and the sound is good it may not be a problem at all to worry so much.


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Lowest seen was -9mv to 10mv , most time sits around -5 to 5mV jumps around very fast though. Tried getting closest to 0 with XLR trimmer, as soon as closer to 0 it shoots away. Closer to 0 more sensitive to trim. I think it's something more serious then.


That is acceptable if you have the stock 50-100ppm resistors, keep the top cover on that should keep it from drifting too much.
You just got lucky with the other 3 opamps
This is how temps affect the DC offset, if you are really bothered, get the low TCR TX2575 and that is rock sold


----------



## wersuss

ESL57 said:


> It does not seem something so alarming and serious, it is true that finding the 0mv point is not something of absolute stability and you can appreciate that when you are going to reach zero there may be a small sudden jump. Repair cold welds on any component that has been changed in recent times and clean them of residues. Listen to both channels after, possibly everything is correct.
> There is another test that B0bb did with a audio files at 50Hz and 1khz to see the equality of the output levels.....
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lks...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-14689266
> If the levels are good and the sound is good it may not be a problem at all to worry so much.





b0bb said:


> That is acceptable if you have the stock 50-100ppm resistors, keep the top cover on that should keep it from drifting too much.
> You just got lucky with the other 3 opamps
> This is how temps affect the DC offset, if you are really bothered, get the low TCR TX2575 and that is rock sold


Thank you very much, I thought something serious. Which place to measure rail voltages on board?


----------



## oldearwax

Which place to measure rail voltages on board?
See
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...-dac-van-dammes-double-impact.840938/page-228
Post #3415


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> That is acceptable if you have the stock 50-100ppm resistors, keep the top cover on that should keep it from drifting too much.
> You just got lucky with the other 3 opamps
> This is how temps affect the DC offset, if you are really bothered, get the low TCR TX2575 and that is rock sold


I have TX2575-3  0.6w but only one each.  Just remembered that DC offset was stable few weeks ago on right channel can transistor go bad if accidentally shorting XLR outputs? XLR cable touched power amp speaker outputs and right channel went silent untill restarting DAC.


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> I have TX2575-3  0.6w but only one each.  Just remembered that DC offset was stable few weeks ago on right channel can transistor go bad if accidentally shorting XLR outputs? XLR cable touched power amp speaker outputs and right channel went silent untill restarting DAC.


If you suspect damage

Measure the voltage across the 2 resistors at Point A, on good and bad side and compare
Repeat on resistors on Point B, both resistors should have the same voltage drop, do measurement on both good and bad sides.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> If you suspect damage
> 
> Measure the voltage across the 2 resistors at Point A, on good and bad side and compare
> Repeat on resistors on Point B, both resistors should have the same voltage drop, do measurement on both good and bad sides.


Hi. Working side shows around 1.66v and faulty side 1 resistor 3.00v and other 3.50v that's at A.  And at B left resistor 220mV and right one around 450mV and constantly changing.


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Hi. Working side shows around 1.66v and faulty side 1 resistor 3.00v and other 3.50v that's at A.  And at B left resistor 220mV and right one around 450mV and constantly changing.


There are 4 resistors on B (2 each for the good and bad channel) , post all 4 values


----------



## wersuss (May 27, 2021)

b0bb said:


> There are 4 resistors on B (2 each for the good and bad channel) , post all 4 values


Looking at picture above
A - left resistor 3.486 volts and right resistor 3.03v.
B - upper resistor 231mV and fluctuating. Lower resistor 443mV and fluctuating aswell.
I don't see 4 resistors on B hehe. Only measured ones you marked in photo.


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Looking at picture above
> A - left resistor 3.486 volts and right resistor 3.03v.
> B - upper resistor 231mV and fluctuating. Lower resistor 443mV and fluctuating aswell.
> I don't see 4 resistors on B hehe. Only measured ones you marked in photo.


Repeat for the good side.


----------



## wersuss

b0bb said:


> Repeat for the good side.


1.64v , 1.64v 
204.6mV , 474.3mV


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> 1.64v , 1.64v
> 204.6mV , 474.3mV


The input transistor pair is drawing about 2x the current in the bad case, the output stage current is the same in both cases.

Did you do the measurement with audio cables (XLR or RCA) connected to the DAC ? 
(Do not change for the next of measurements or you will have to repeat the earlier steps)

Measure points C and D for both good and bad case.


----------



## wersuss (May 27, 2021)

b0bb said:


> The input transistor pair is drawing about 2x the current in the bad case, the output stage current is the same in both cases.
> 
> Did you do the measurement with audio cables (XLR or RCA) connected to the DAC ?
> (Do not change for the next of measurements or you will have to repeat the earlier steps)
> ...


No cables connected.
Good side C -  0.627v  D - 2.0v
Bad side C-. 2.74v   D -.  2.01.4v


----------



## b0bb (May 27, 2021)

wersuss said:


> No cables connected.
> Good side C -  0.627v  D - 2.0v
> Bad side C-. 2.74v   D -.  2.01.4v


Test point C is across a diode, it should be between 0.6-0.7V when running.
Probably where the damage is.


----------



## wersuss (May 27, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Test point C is across a diode, it should be between 0.6-0.7V when running.
> Probably where the damage is.


Hmm where is that diode? Maybe possible to ordered it and replace?🙂 can be transistors too?


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Hmm where is that diode? Maybe possible to ordered it and replace?🙂 can be transistors too?


Please ignore the diode comment, my mistake. (Diode is point D)
The Transistor next to point C is not working correctly, it is passing 5x more current than the good side.
This is part of the current source  controlling current running thru the input JFet.

Need to check voltages on all 3 pins of the transistor, measure voltages between the 3 arrows, for both good and bad case.


----------



## wersuss (May 27, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Please ignore the diode comment, my mistake. (Diode is point D)
> The Transistor next to point C is not working correctly, it is passing 5x more current than the good side.
> This is part of the current source  controlling current running thru the input JFet.
> 
> Need to check voltages on all 3 pins of the transistor, measure voltages between the 3 arrows, for both good and bad case.


Bad side arrows from left to right :
13.25v ,  -12.84v , -12.22v
Good side : 1.582v , -14.84 ,  -14.23v


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## ESL57 (May 27, 2021)

wersuss said:


> I have TX2575-3  0.6w but only one each.  Just remembered that DC offset was stable few weeks ago on right channel can transistor go bad if accidentally shorting XLR outputs? XLR cable touched power amp speaker outputs and right channel went silent untill restarting DAC.


This information that the output power of the amplifier entered through the XLR output I did not see or understand before. Now if one or more of the transistors may be short-circuited or open, follow B0bb's excellent location plan, you already have it cornered, luckily you always have the good channel to see differences. In the LKS004, thank God, its parts are almost all locatable in the component market, another point in its favor as a value as a repairable design.


----------



## b0bb

wersuss said:


> Bad side arrows from left to right :
> 13.25v ,  -12.84v , -12.22v
> Good side : 1.582v , -14.84 ,  -14.23v


Bad side: 13.25V --> one or both input JFets have turned on HARD, this not good, referred to as a latched condition.
Normal is 1.5 -1.6V around the mid point of  ±15V

Need to check around the pins of the JFet and the Trimmer
(The good news is the current source transistor is not shorted out, the base and emitter voltages , the last 2 numbers , have a 0.6V difference)

For the numbered test points, use the -ve side lead  of the Wet Tantalum Cap as ground reference, measure for good and bad case


----------



## wersuss

Good side -
1 : 1.205v  2 : 1.230v
3 : 13.85v   4 : 13.85v
5 : 13.85v   6:  13.85v
Bad side - 
1: 1.205v    2 : 1.497v
3: 12.66v  4:  12.46v
5: 12.43v  6:  12.57v


----------



## b0bb (May 27, 2021)

wersuss said:


> Good side -
> 1 : 1.205v  2 : 1.230v
> 3 : 13.85v   4 : 13.85v
> 5 : 13.85v   6:  13.85v
> ...


Input JFet may have gone bad.

The solder join does not seem to be causing the problem (3,4,5,6 testpoints show similar numbers)
Opamp ± inputs also look ok (Test points 1,2)

The JFet is a 2SK3320-BL
LKS is using BL grade do not substitute for a lower grade, IDSS needs to be between 6-14mA




Get it from here
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Toshiba/2SK3320-BLTE85LF?qs=iCzJi/IZBF73U9LHzuXieg==


----------



## ESL57 (May 27, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Input JFet may have gone bad.
> 
> The solder join does not seem to be causing the problem (3,4,5,6 testpoints show similar numbers)
> Opamp ± inputs also look ok (Test points 1,2)
> ...


B0bb already asked a few weeks ago if this component (dual jFet) could be replaced by something of better parameters and quality, to obtain a better performance.
Maybe something like this from through Hole or something similar......
https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/InterFET/U431?qs=OxRSArmBDfyX1e81eSWn9Q==


----------



## rettib2001

b0bb, 

What are your thoughts on these boards and interfaces that are cropping up on various chinese sites?

They're being positioned as a direct replacement to the Amanero board, fair enough if it works, but I'd be curious to hear what you think in terms of the componenets used.

Is there any chance that they could provide an improvement in sound quality?



https://www.aliexpress.com/item/400...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_


----------



## ESL57

A friend of mine is looking for a unit of LKS 004 in the second-hand market with the intention of improving it later (buying new due to the loss of warranty is not applicable), if someone has thought of selling in any country in the euro zone, I could put you in contact with him for a purchase.
This was recently sold here but it was in the USA.
https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/lks-musetec-mh-da004-dual-es9038pro-dac.2955/


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> B0bb already asked a few weeks ago if this component (dual jFet) could be replaced by something of better parameters and quality, to obtain a better performance.
> Maybe something like this from through Hole or something similar......
> https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/InterFET/U431?qs=OxRSArmBDfyX1e81eSWn9Q==


Not really, the Toshiba dual Fet LKS uses on the 004 is very good and very cheap.
Toshiba is the preferred manufacturer for ultra low noise devices for audio use.

The InterFET at 10nV/√Hz is quite noisy, 2SK3320-BL 1.7nV/√Hz (5dB NF @25℃, that is 5dB over thermal noise which is 0.97nV/√Hz at 50ohm)

The only serious competitor for audio use is Linear Systems' LSK389B, in small quantities it is nearly 20X the cost of the Toshiba and is not any better except for availability of tightly match versions which cost even more money.

https://www.linearsystems.com/lsdata/datasheets/201122 - LSK389 Datasheet Rev A14 2018 06 14.pdf


----------



## b0bb (May 27, 2021)

rettib2001 said:


> b0bb,
> 
> What are your thoughts on these boards and interfaces that are cropping up on various chinese sites?
> 
> ...


These are based on the Xing designs.
Main selling points are PCM768/DSD1024 neither of which the stock 004 can support.
Component quality is average, the voltage regulators are shared by several chips, enhanced Amanero has 1 regulator per chip.
(Exceptions are the ones in the latest 004 cost-cut version)

They compete with the stock Amanero, not the improved Amanero LKS bundles with the 004.

All the boards mentioned are powered by the host USB port, it would be quite terrible due to noise compared the internally powered Amanero card.
This can be fixed this by throwing lots of money at external dongles to clean up the power, I think there are better ways to proceed.

The big limitation with these is that they are Windows only devices, so if you are running Moode, Volumio, HQPLayer Embedded they are not guaranteed to work.

Singxer uses the same hardware but has custom firmware, the SU-2.
This identifies itself as an XMOS device.

Sonically SU-2 is very slightly better than the older stock enhanced Amanero, I had expected much more for 400USD device.

Overall they are curiosities nothing much there to get excited about.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Not really, the Toshiba dual Fet LKS uses on the 004 is very good and very cheap.
> Toshiba is the preferred manufacturer for ultra low noise devices for audio use.
> 
> The InterFET at 10nV/√Hz is quite noisy, 2SK3320-BL 1.7nV/√Hz (5dB NF @25℃, that is 5dB over thermal noise which is 0.97nV/√Hz at 50ohm)
> ...


Better for us, if so, LKS hit the target the first time, the best and very cheap, what else to ask for.


----------



## rettib2001

b0bb said:


> These are based on the Xing designs.
> Main selling points are PCM768/DSD1024 neither of which the stock 004 can support.
> Component quality is average, the voltage regulators are shared by several chips, enhanced Amanero has 1 regulator per chip.
> (Exceptions are the ones in the latest 004 cost-cut version)
> ...



Thanks for the reply b0bb.

Thought as much.

For the time being I'll just stick to the Amanero board, which I agree sounds really good once modified, as it also offers the benefit of not having another little black box and additional cables cluttering up my front room.


----------



## Xoverman

hi everyone, hear is an update about the things i've changed in mi 004 the last couple of weeks.

-    22µF capacitor replacement for the LT3045 crystal clock power supply Set pin bypass Capacitor.
For those of us that stil use a standard XO, ther is a lot of room for improvement in the 004. When i started of playing around with the secondary regulator directly in front of the XO, my first step was to open up capacitor charging loops. I placed 4.7mH and 2.2Ohm in row with the Positive supply rail coming from the Primary regulator. And it had a huge influence on sonics. It had direct influence on the jitter. This little finding gave me confidence that there might be some more to work on.
After studying the datasheet of the LT3045 I found out that LT suggest to use a 22µF Cap parallel to the SET Pin Resistor. LkS only supplied a 10μf capacitor.
I changed it to 22μf and boy was i surprised. Bass got texture that i never heard before out of a DAC, gust in real life. 

-      Change the primary XO regulator to LT3045
Sens the total power consumption of the 2x 9038Pro and XO the is only 50mA I exchanged the supplied stock regulator with a 5V chinese LT3045 TO220 hybrid PCB that I modified to 22µF. And of course i know it sounds silly, but sonic's improved again. Its breathtaking to find out how much information is in music that most people never hear.
Now i know how important XO power supply is for an audio DAC. 
I will post pictures tomorrow.


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> hi everyone, hear is an update about the things i've changed in mi 004 the last couple of weeks.
> 
> -    22µF capacitor replacement for the LT3045 crystal clock power supply Set pin bypass Capacitor.
> For those of us that stil use a standard XO, ther is a lot of room for improvement in the 004. When i started of playing around with the secondary regulator directly in front of the XO, my first step was to open up capacitor charging loops. I placed 4.7mH and 2.2Ohm in row with the Positive supply rail coming from the Primary regulator. And it had a huge influence on sonics. It had direct influence on the jitter. This little finding gave me confidence that there might be some more to work on.
> ...


As always we look forward to seeing your improvements and photos eagerly.
Don't forget this detail:
Increase..... VCC_L , VCC_R and DVDD power from 1.2v to 1.3v..... a low cost "Magic"


----------



## ESL57

rettib2001 said:


> Thanks for the reply b0bb.
> 
> Thought as much.
> 
> For the time being I'll just stick to the Amanero board, which I agree sounds really good once modified, as it also offers the benefit of not having another little black box and additional cables cluttering up my front room.


Manufacturers the others most exotic and expensive DDCs still rely on Amanero, for example _AUDIO_-_GD_ DI-20HE
But if you read in your own forum they are not exempt from problems and incompatibilities, better stay for now seeing what happens with the new advances to come until you take a new step, IMO


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> As always we look forward to seeing your improvements and photos eagerly.
> Don't forget this detail:
> Increase..... VCC_L , VCC_R and DVDD power from 1.2v to 1.3v..... a low cost "Magic"


That's on my high priority list 

Did anyone ever measure the current needed for that supply leg?


----------



## Xoverman

Xoverman said:


> hi everyone, hear is an update about the things i've changed in mi 004 the last couple of weeks.
> 
> -    22µF capacitor replacement for the LT3045 crystal clock power supply Set pin bypass Capacitor.
> For those of us that stil use a standard XO, ther is a lot of room for improvement in the 004. When i started of playing around with the secondary regulator directly in front of the XO, my first step was to open up capacitor charging loops. I placed 4.7mH and 2.2Ohm in row with the Positive supply rail coming from the Primary regulator. And it had a huge influence on sonics. It had direct influence on the jitter. This little finding gave me confidence that there might be some more to work on.
> ...


----------



## ESL57

The LT1963 regulator is 1.5A, and that 3045 module gives up to 0.5A (They shouldn't advertise it by selling it as a low-noise replacement for the 78xx series), will it be enough current? Did you measure the consumption of that regulated source? The consumption of the 1.2v (1.3v) does not get to measure them, but they are below 500mA in each channel.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> The LT1963 regulator is 1.5A, and that 3045 module gives up to 0.5A (They shouldn't advertise it by selling it as a low-noise replacement for the 78xx series), will it be enough current? Did you measure the consumption of that regulated source? The consumption of the 1.2v (1.3v) does not get to measure them, but they are below 500mA in each channel.


Please read my post carefully.
The XO needs about 20 - 30mA and the 2 clock circuit's of the DAC chips 3mA each. It works wonderful, and the sonic impact is huge. 
The regulator dosn't even get warm.


----------



## b0bb (May 29, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> The LT1963 regulator is 1.5A, and that 3045 module gives up to 0.5A (They shouldn't advertise it by selling it as a low-noise replacement for the 78xx series), will it be enough current? Did you measure the consumption of that regulated source? The consumption of the 1.2v (1.3v) does not get to measure them, but they are below 500mA in each channel.


The LT1963 is exclusively used for the master clock circuit and DAC oscillators.
Your CCHD-950X consumes between 50-60mA, so budget for 120mA on the PSU

You have a Gen1, the 2nd stage TPS7A47 can output up to 1A, you have the option to use a low power OCXO with the stock regulators.
Digikey/Mouser have a good selection.


----------



## piaseczek

Xoverman said:


> hi everyone, hear is an update about the things i've changed in mi 004 the last couple of weeks.
> 
> -    22µF capacitor replacement for the LT3045 crystal clock power supply Set pin bypass Capacitor.
> For those of us that stil use a standard XO, ther is a lot of room for improvement in the 004. When i started of playing around with the secondary regulator directly in front of the XO, my first step was to open up capacitor charging loops. I placed 4.7mH and 2.2Ohm in row with the Positive supply rail coming from the Primary regulator. And it had a huge influence on sonics. It had direct influence on the jitter. This little finding gave me confidence that there might be some more to work on.
> ...



Xoverman,
I have two questions:
1. What type of the 22uF capacitor do you recommend? 
2. What values before and after the clock's regulator will be the best without changing the original inductor and resistor?


----------



## piaseczek (May 30, 2021)

In the extreme hi-end gryphon kalliope there is the crystek 575, one for each channel:
https://hifi-inside.com/audio-gear-for-pc/usb-dac-and-portable-ones/the-gryphon
In the ethos based on the es9038pro the same:
http://highfidelity.pl/@main-3662&lang=

Maybe the crystek 575 is not a problem but the PSU for the clock?


----------



## Xoverman (May 30, 2021)

b0bb said:


> The LT1963 is exclusively used for the master clock circuit and DAC oscillators.
> Your CCHD-950X consumes between 50-60mA, so budget for 120mA on the PSU
> 
> You have a Gen1, the 2nd stage TPS7A47 can output up to 1A, you have the option to use a low power OCXO with the stock regulators.
> Digikey/Mouser have a good selection.


B0BB, you are almost right 
Yesterday I took the time to measure the currents of all regulator's, which is a little tricky with my setup. I can't take the complete DAC and measure on the work bench seance my transformers and AC mains filters lay under my AMP.

OK, looking from the front going from the left to the right:
Both analog power supplys:   620mA.     ( no change with content )
Analog PS for both DAC's  :    620mA.     ( no change with content )
Digital clock and XO PS :          80mA.      ( no change with content )  ( XO is Accusilicon )
Digital PS both DAC'S  :           900mA      ( idle ),         1100mA ( DSD 256 ),          1300mA. ( 352kHz PCM )
CPU and I/O and Display:       220mA      ( without Display  ),        900mA. ( with Display  ),      ( no change with content  )
All current's where measured at the AC transformer terminal's on the DAC board.


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> B0BB, you are almost right
> Yesterday I took the time to measure the currents of all regulator's, which is a little tricky with my setup. I can't take the complete DAC and measure on the work bench seance my transformers and AC mains filters lay under my AMP.
> 
> OK, looking from the front going from the left to the right:
> ...


Thanks for sharing, I will try to do the same shortly, did you do it with an ac current clamp or by inserting an ac ammeter in series?


----------



## ESL57

I think that reconstructing analog audio from digital signals and more if they are of very high resolution is difficult to do it with precision and stability, a typical case of those we hear with speakers is that one day your audio equipment sounds and shines like the sun and another day without touching anything, the listening is not as perfect as the day before .... electrical or radio noise, atmospheric pressure, relative humidity, the moon came very close to the earth ¿? . It is a good habit after a change or changes to be aware for several days if it was a step forward or backward. For example, I do not currently have a good quality AC power supply stability and cleaning system, only a certain prestigious brand ac distribution strip, I would like to do something to improve this, perhaps a balanced isolating transformer, you have Some of this? What do you think? Xoverman did see that he installed them in his audio system.


----------



## Xoverman

piaseczek said:


> In the extreme hi-end gryphon kalliope there is the crystek 575, one for each channel:
> https://hifi-inside.com/audio-gear-for-pc/usb-dac-and-portable-ones/the-gryphon
> In the ethos based on the es9038pro the same:
> http://highfidelity.pl/@main-3662&lang=
> ...


I think you are absolutely right. If your read application notes about crystal clocks, and what trouble they have to go through to measure phase noise from high performance crystal clocks, then you will find that LKS was a little bit sloppy with the PS implementation.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Thanks for sharing, I will try to do the same shortly, did you do it with an ac current clamp or by inserting an ac ammeter in series?


Yes, AC current clamp.


----------



## Xoverman

piaseczek said:


> Xoverman,
> I have two questions:
> 1. What type of the 22uF capacitor do you recommend?
> 2. What values before and after the clock's regulator will be the best without changing the original inductor and resistor?


22uF,  25V, X5R ,   part number: CL31A226KAHNNNE 
I also tried a 22uF 16V Rubycon Film Cap , but I couldn't   hear any benefit .

I don't understand the rest of the question


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> I think that reconstructing analog audio from digital signals and more if they are of very high resolution is difficult to do it with precision and stability, a typical case of those we hear with speakers is that one day your audio equipment sounds and shines like the sun and another day without touching anything, the listening is not as perfect as the day before .... electrical or radio noise, atmospheric pressure, relative humidity, the moon came very close to the earth ¿? . It is a good habit after a change or changes to be aware for several days if it was a step forward or backward. For example, I do not currently have a good quality AC power supply stability and cleaning system, only a certain prestigious brand ac distribution strip, I would like to do something to improve this, perhaps a balanced isolating transformer, you have Some of this? What do you think? Xoverman did see that he installed them in his audio system.


moon came very close to the earth ¿? ( On that Day everything sounded wonderful at my house to )   

I  do have three  isolation transformers 2x 2500VA, 1x 1500VA. And I did try balanced Ground, but totally floating secondary sound's better with my setup.


----------



## piaseczek

Xoverman said:


> 22uF,  25V, X5R ,   part number: CL31A226KAHNNNE
> I also tried a 22uF 16V Rubycon Film Cap , but I couldn't   hear any benefit .
> 
> I don't understand the rest of the question


I'm asking about the values of the capacitors close to the clock's regulator. Please take a look at the attached photo

In my second genaration 004 there is 47uF before [1] and after [2] the regulator. 
In the newest 004 and in the 005 there is 270uF for [1] and 100uF for [2]. B0bb's recommendation is 820uF for [1] and 100uF for [2].


----------



## Xoverman

piaseczek said:


> I'm asking about the values of the capacitors close to the clock's regulator. Please take a look at the attached photo
> 
> In my second genaration 004 there is 47uF before [1] and after [2] the regulator.
> In the newest 004 and in the 005 there is 270uF for [1] and 100uF for [2]. B0bb's recommendation is 820uF for [1] and 100uF for [2].


I also think 820uF for [1] and 100uF for [2] is a good approach, but only if you put a 2.2Ohm resistor in series with the small ferrite left to [1].


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> B0BB, you are almost right
> Yesterday I took the time to measure the currents of all regulator's, which is a little tricky with my setup. I can't take the complete DAC and measure on the work bench seance my transformers and AC mains filters lay under my AMP.
> 
> OK, looking from the front going from the left to the right:
> ...


How so?

Digital clock numbers are for your Accusilicon not Crystek, right?


----------



## Xoverman (May 30, 2021)

One important thing. Every time I change something within the power supply of the 004 I then experiment with the polarity of the mains plug to get the best results. Sometimes it's also a good idea to rotate the individual AC segments of the two AC Plug's comming from the transformers. But please make a picture of the plug's before you start. Then you can always go back.


----------



## Xoverman (May 30, 2021)

b0bb said:


> How so?
> 
> Digital clock numbers are for your Accusilicon not Crystek, right?


Yes, Crystek should be about the same +/- 10mA


----------



## ESL57 (May 30, 2021)

b0bb said:


> The LT1963 is exclusively used for the master clock circuit and DAC oscillators.
> Your CCHD-950X consumes between 50-60mA, so budget for 120mA on the PSU
> 
> You have a Gen1, the 2nd stage TPS7A47 can output up to 1A, you have the option to use a low power OCXO with the stock regulators.
> Digikey/Mouser have a good selection.


What do OCXOs sonically contribute to TCXO? I don't know how many of you with GEN1 installed one, I only remember you B0bb and Whitigir with Pulsar and Abracon respectively, the temperatures of those mini ovens were high to be in such a small space between the 9038pro,s I did not like too much.
Here..
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-14506005


----------



## b0bb (May 30, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Digital clock and XO PS :          80mA.      ( no change with content )
> Digital PS both DAC'S  :           900mA      ( idle ),         1100mA ( DSD 256 ),          1300mA. ( 352kHz PCM )


On the Digital PS regulator 1300mA is coming close to the 1500mA limit of the LM317 stock regulator.
I expect it will be at the limit at DSD512
(@ESL57 you should remove the TPS7A47 if you replaced the regulator has a max of 1000mA)

This measurement shows the bottleneck is not the XO regulator but the Digital PS regulator.
It is very close to its operating limit at the highest sampling rates.

Keep in mind these are average numbers. Peak number is about 1800mA.



LKS replaced the original Gen1 470uF Nichicon FP cap  with the ceramic cap.
This was a cost cutting measure to avoid having to use a more expensive high current regulator

This is the reason why I used the 3A LT3083
The low ESR  bypasscap is needed to deal with the large current peaks, @1300mA rms the peak is 1838mA





This is also why @Xoverman's experiment  replacing  the 820uF failed as the very low esr was sufficient to cause current peaks above 1500mA.
This caused the stock LM317 regulator to current limit.
Keep this in mind when selectively using the changes I posted.


Xoverman said:


> Hi B0bb,
> 
> I tried this approach three weeks ago. It did not work out for me. I exchanged both AC244 against 74ALVC244 and added 820µF 16V Polymer Caps.
> The DAC lost all of its micro details. I build everything back, and the micro details came back.


----------



## b0bb (May 30, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> What do OCXOs sonically contribute to TCXO? I don't know how many of you with GEN1 installed one, I only remember you B0bb and Whitigir with Pulsar and Abracon respectively, the temperatures of those mini ovens were high to be in such a small space between the 9038pro,s I did not like too much.
> Here..
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-14506005


The move to OCXO is similar to the change in performance going from stock CCHD-575 to CCHD-950X.

Expansion of soundstage
Improvements in resolution and detail imaging
Gen1s were not around for very long so there are less units compared for Gen2

The key to using the OCXO is to insulate the package.

Quite easy to build just some closed-cell foam and thermal reflective film.
Reduction of heat loss does the following things

Reduction of heater power and therefore load current from 330mA + to less than 200mA
Heat rise of surrounding components  is less than 1℃
Pulsar is special, it is basically a crystal in a double-walled vacuum enclosure.
Extremely low power about 100-120mA when running.
The external metal surface is just warm to touch, surface temps on a conventional OCXO is hot enough to burn.

Does not require insulation

Here is the boot I built for the conventional OCXO.
On bottom, right is the boot in the DAC [1]


----------



## b0bb (May 30, 2021)

Line interface drivers and the I2S receiver on the 004 consumes a lot of current.
LKS used long traces protected by large ground  planes

The cost of this is a large load capacitance, the drivers have to use this current to charge/discharge the load capacitance in order to change the voltage on the lines.
Current is the rate of transfer of electric charge per unit time.

If this current is insufficient the squarewave pulses start to lose shape, this creates decoding uncertainty on the receiver of the 9038 --> jitter.

The stock LM317 is operating close to its limit, adding a current limiting resistor in the 3.3V supply line buys some temporary relief but at the cost of liming the drive capability of the line interface drivers.

Trying to tune this by ear is misleading as what you hear is the improvement from reduction of stress on the LM317 but only measurement reveals the true cost of this change.

Adding a resistor in series with the 3.3V supply is not good for the long term fix, change the regulator instead.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> On the Digital PS regulator 1300mA is coming close to the 1500mA limit of the LM317 stock regulator.
> I expect it will be at the limit at DSD512
> (@ESL57 you should remove the TPS7A47 if you replaced the regulator has a max of 1000mA)
> 
> ...


(@ESL57 you should remove the TPS7A47 if you replaced the regulator has a max of 1000mA)
I know, thanks for reminding me, I have it in my list of things that I have to correct (it was in my time of searching for DSD noise), I will look for those Lt and I will put it in digital PS.
Interesting Pulsar hurts that his supply life was short-lived.


----------



## b0bb (May 30, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> (@ESL57 you should remove the TPS7A47 if you replaced the regulator has a max of 1000mA)
> I know, thanks for reminding me, I have it in my list of things that I have to correct (it was in my time of searching for DSD noise), I will look for those Lt and I will put it in digital PS.
> Interesting Pulsar hurts that his supply life was short-lived.


The OEM is MagicXtal from Omsk, Siberia.
Supply started to dry up due issues of government and politics stating 2015


----------



## MartinWT

wersuss said:


> Hello, i installed Vishay trim pots , left channel adjusted very easy to 0 DC ,but right channel fluctuating very much. Pins 2-1 set fine no fluctuation but pins 2-3 unstable impossible to set. What could be wrong? Same with RCA.


I had a similar problem and upon closer inspection one of the legs was not making contact after soldering.  A quick bit of heat and it was sorted.


----------



## MartinWT

ESL57 said:


> buying new due to the loss of warranty is not applicable


Have you checked Amazon?  I bought mine from Amazon knowing that I would have full warranty protection from them.


----------



## b0bb (May 30, 2021)

Here is an example of the pulse distortion I referred to earlier

Normal:






Current limited:





In the current limited case there is not enough current to charge the load capacitance in the allotted time resulting in a "rounded" square wave.

The problem for the I2S receiver on the 9038 is that it knows when the signal ends but not when it starts in the current limited case.
This uncertainty leads to decode errors on the 9038 and shows up as increased timing errors --> jitter

Getting good jitter performance is not only about  getting the best clocks but also making sure there is enough drive capability to avoid distorting the shape of the square wave.

More info here:
https://www.siglenteu.com/operating-tip/determine-bandwidth-scope-require-application/


----------



## MartinWT

ESL57 said:


> I do not currently have a good quality AC power supply stability and cleaning system, only a certain prestigious brand ac distribution strip, I would like to do something to improve this, perhaps a balanced isolating transformer, you have Some of this?


I have a PS Audio Power Plant P3 regenerator for all my source components (including the LKS) and a P10 for the power amplifier.

They take care of any supply fluctuations I would otherwise have suffered from, giving a very tightly regulated perfect sinewave 230VAC.


----------



## Xoverman (May 31, 2021)

b0bb said:


> On the Digital PS regulator 1300mA is coming close to the 1500mA limit of the LM317 stock regulator.
> I expect it will be at the limit at DSD512
> (@ESL57 you should remove the TPS7A47 if you replaced the regulator has a max of 1000mA)
> 
> ...


In my DAC I think it's not all for the line driver's. ( 1300mA )  
It think  2/5 of the current go's to each LP 38798 witch then drive the 1.2V / 1.3V digital and I think also analog core supply of the DAC chip's. ( I didn't check yet ).  1/5 is for the Line driver's. Maybe I'll get the chance to measure the exact current's next weekend.
By the way, I had exactly the same thought when I saw the 1300mA on the Amper meter.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> On the Digital PS regulator 1300mA is coming close to the 1500mA limit of the LM317 stock regulator.
> I expect it will be at the limit at DSD512
> (@ESL57 you should remove the TPS7A47 if you replaced the regulator has a max of 1000mA)
> 
> ...


B0bb I would like to put that LT3083 of 3A, you jumper pins Vin and Vcontrol, and you install them without more? with the Set pin to GND or to a calculated resistance? and what do you get in Vout?
There are few here who tried Abracon AOCJY1 or AOCJY2, they are 2w and 3w respectively at startup, do you honestly think that Abracon AOCJY1 is worth it? This would be the one that for installation, lower consumption and price seems more reasonable to install in LKS004 GEN1, if the difference with CCHD950x is not significant in sq, I do not know if it is a high priority objective.


----------



## b0bb (May 31, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> In my DAC I think it's not all for the line driver's. ( 1300mA )
> It think  2/5 of the current go's to each LP 38798 witch then drive the 1.2V / 1.3V digital and I think also analog core supply of the DAC chip's. ( I didn't check yet ).  1/5 is for the Line driver's. Maybe I'll get the chance to measure the exact current's next weekend.
> By the way, I had exactly the same thought when I saw the 1300mA on the Amper meter.


That is not the case on Gen1.

I do hope you are mistaken on this, if this were correct this is quite a big oversight on the Gen2's design.
Sharing part of the DAC's supply with the noisy line drivers is not a good thing, LKS has not done this on previous DACs.
Separate supplies for the line drivers was the LKS norm for the Gen1 004, 003 and the 002.

LKS increased the capacitance to 22000uF on Gen1 on the first regulator, the one you labelled DAC Analog PS, no good reason unless it is to handle high current.
620mA is not a very large current, LKS would not have spent the money on the larger cap, especially since it was a high cost Nichicon Audio Grade Cap.

The LP38798 powers the 1.2V side of the DAC and ESS has already mentioned it needs more power. This worsens the load on the regulator carrying 1300mA.
This makes it an even bigger bottleneck.

On the flip side you could be right as you said you did not notice a difference when you increased the cap to 47000uF on the DAC Analog PS. At 620mA increasing the  size of the probably made minimal diffrences.

2 loads on the same regulator 150mm apart sharing a common ground connection is a very bad implemention, this creates ground loops at radio frequencies.
I hope that is not the case, if it actually is the case I think it might be time to look for a used Gen1 given how bothered you are about RF noise.


----------



## wersuss (May 31, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Input JFet may have gone bad.
> 
> The solder join does not seem to be causing the problem (3,4,5,6 testpoints show similar numbers)
> Opamp ± inputs also look ok (Test points 1,2)
> ...


Hi. I changed it, but still same. Can it be transistors? I replaced only one Jfet on XLR side. Also might damaged trace cause this? I see some scratches just near XLR output socket.


----------



## b0bb (May 31, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> B0bb I would like to put that LT3083 of 3A, you jumper pins Vin and Vcontrol, and you install them without more? with the Set pin to GND or to a calculated resistance? and what do you get in Vout?
> There are few here who tried Abracon AOCJY1 or AOCJY2, they are 2w and 3w respectively at startup, do you honestly think that Abracon AOCJY1 is worth it? This would be the one that for installation, lower consumption and price seems more reasonable to install in LKS004 GEN1, if the difference with CCHD950x is not significant in sq, I do not know if it is a high priority objective.


I used this resistor to set the voltage, the output voltage is set by the 50uA reference current over the resistor.
The LT3083 is similar in design to the LT3045 except that is handles more current, giving up some noise performance.
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/PTN1206Y1003BST1/764-PTN1206Y1003BST1CT-ND/12820752

As for the crystals, you will have to experiment to find the one you like best, if you have not added a socket do so.
The AOCJY1 "on-paper" specs is worse than the CCHD950X  but it outperforms it by a substantial margin.
It is one of the cheapest OCXOs, you can always buy a more expensive part if you see the potential.

CCHD950 trades off some details in imaging compared to stock but in return you get much more smoothness, less glare and high frequency grain.
Grain and glare is often the biggest criticisms of the ESS chips compared to R2R.

Going to OCXO returns some of the imaging detail but without re-introducing the dreaded glare problem, the higher up the range you go the better it gets.
OCXOs are also very stable, if you have clean power going into the DAC there is much less of the problem of the 004 sounding different on some days the "good-days"/"bad-days" issues.

XO mods are relatively simple and it affects imaging,dynamics  and presentation directly, something to think about if you are trying to match the Lumin's perfromance.


----------



## b0bb (May 31, 2021)

wersuss said:


> Hi. I changed it, but still same. Can it be transistors? I replaced only one Jfet on XLR side. Also might damaged trace cause this? I see some scratches just near XLR output socket.


It gets more difficult from here.
You could do a simple check to see if any of the transistors are broken, the voltage between the base [1] and emitter terminals [2] should be between 0.6v-0.7v
Mark those for potential replacement if they they are out of this range.

Pinout




Transistors with the SG label are 2SA1162-GR
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Toshiba/2SA1162-GRLF?qs=iCzJi/IZBF4pKAB14b5rPg==

Transistors with the LG label are 2SC2712-GR
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Toshiba/2SC2712-GRLF?qs=OLJpxlzHOSROHaH/h9sb9g==


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> That is not the case on Gen1.
> 
> I do hope you are mistaken on this, if this were correct this is quite a big oversight on the Gen2's design.
> Sharing part of the DAC's supply with the noisy line drivers is not a good thing, LKS has not done this on previous DACs.
> ...


They should have spent 22000uF also for the 1300mA supply. I did that this weekend, and it helps a little bit.


----------



## b0bb (May 31, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> They should have spent 22000uF also for the 1300mA supply. I did that this weekend, and it helps a little bit.


I expect a reduction in input ripple on the regulator, it buys some immediate relief.
Consider changing the regulator longer term


----------



## ESL57 (May 31, 2021)

wersuss said:


> Hi. I changed it, but still same. Can it be transistors? I replaced only one Jfet on XLR side. Also might damaged trace cause this? I see some scratches just near XLR output socket.


B0bb is right things get complicated in the distance.
To measure in these transistors the voltage drop of 0.6v to 0.7v with the dac on you must have a good pulse when connecting the voltmeter or you run the risk of causing worse damage if you have a bad pulse, try perhaps for more safety with the diode meter of multimeters with the dac off looking for something abnormal between their b-e-c, it all depends on your ability to measure in such tight spaces.


----------



## b0bb

@Xoverman, I think you should eliminate the unterminated internal I2S input as a source of problems.

Put the USB interface back in, make sure it is powered on and see if the 1300mA drops.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> B0bb is right things get complicated in the distance.
> To measure in these transistors the voltage drop of 0.6v to 0.7v with the dac on you must have a good pulse when connecting the voltmeter or you run the risk of causing worse damage if you have a bad pulse, try perhaps for more safety with the diode meter of multimeters with the dac off looking for something abnormal between their b-e-c, it all depends on your ability to measure in such tight spaces.


Lets keep things simple, measure the DC voltage drop at idle and powered on.
If you have not noticed @wersuss is pretty good at doing this.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> That is not the case on Gen1.
> 
> I do hope you are mistaken on this, if this were correct this is quite a big oversight on the Gen2's design.
> Sharing part of the DAC's supply with the noisy line drivers is not a good thing, LKS has not done this on previous DACs.
> ...



It sounds like a real technical tragedy.


----------



## ESL57 (Jun 1, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Lets keep things simple, measure the DC voltage drop at idle and powered on.
> If you have not noticed @wersuss is pretty good at doing this.


Ok, I just wanted to help just like all of you help me, I don't know Wersuss I don't know how far his ability goes, I always put myself in the worst case so that no greater evils occur.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> This is a rebuild of the digital power section to increase the current supply to the DAC
> 
> All the stock 1.5A regulators were replaced with 3A capable units with transient and noise handling equal to or better than the stock LT1963A
> 
> ...



B0bb,
Please correct me if I am wrong - after the latest measurements of Xoverman replacing the 3 x LM317s to the LT3083s (and capacitors after the regulators) seem to be the first thing to do. 
Nextly:
1. More powerful line drivers 
2. 820uF fpcaps everywhere on the digital side. 

Could you provide more photos of the LT3083 before soldering to the DAC? 
I would like to see which leg should be connected with which.

Did you use that version?
https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMutXGli8Ay4kH0snNKc9YQDJGfXaTpinXQ=


----------



## b0bb (Jun 4, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> Please correct me if I am wrong - after the latest measurements of Xoverman replacing the 3 x LM317s to the LT3083s (and capacitors after the regulators) seem to be the first thing to do.
> Nextly:
> 1. More powerful line drivers
> ...


The Mouser link is the correct one.

Straighten out the pins.
Cut pin 1
Join pins 4 and 5
Connect a 100k resistor to the set pin
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/PTN1206Y1003BST1/764-PTN1206Y1003BST1CT-ND/12820752
This replace the lower feedback resistor used by the LM317 (one with one side connected to ground)

Remove upper feedback resistor (the one with one side connected to output)
Replace bypass cap with good quality film cap, I used 0.15uF 100V polypropylene (Wima MKP2)


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Here is a before and after picture to highlight the changed components  (C3,C4,C5,C6, PSU input filter C2,C8,C9,C10 and the 4 diodes)
> USB socket changed out to something that gave more grip.
> The shield on the replacement USB connector is a continuous piece of metal unlike the original which is made up of several pieces.
> Kapton tape to insulate the socket from the chassis metalwork.
> ...



B0bb,
C6 is the Cset, in the previous post you advised 10uF + 1uF. 
Why you have chosen 11uF and not the 22uF suggested by Analog?
https://www.analog.com/en/technical...ahigh-psrr-lt3042-200ma-linear-regulator.html


----------



## piaseczek (Jun 4, 2021)

There must be a second meaning by your decision


----------



## Xoverman

Inspired by the great benefit of upgrading the XO power supply of the 004 with 22µF cap's on the set pin and a LT3045 as pre regulator, I decided to go hunting for an even better XO then the Accusilicon AS318-B I was using until now. After quite some research I fond a XO that lies between the specs of my Accusilicon and the Pulsar B0bb is using.

High Performance Low Phase Noise SMD RF XO XO-91A000-LF (LV)HCMOS 
Typ. Phase Noise @ offset frequency. (FN = 100.0 MHz):

10 Hz: -98 dBc/Hz 
 100 Hz: -130 dBc/Hz 
 1 kHz: -159 dBc/Hz 
 10 kHz: -173 dBc/Hz 
 100 kHz: -176 dBc/Hz
 1 MHz: -178 dBc/Hz

This XO is a pretty impressive upgrade to my LKS. Everything gets sharper, symbols are like real, voices at the edge of the soundstage become very clear and get holographic bodys. Its amasing ! I wish they were still making the Pulsar. B0bb you are a lucky man !


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> The Mouser link is the correct one.
> 
> Straighten out the pins.
> Cut pin 1
> ...


dont you you want to use a bypass capacitor on the SET Pin ?  0.1 - 1µF ?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> C6 is the Cset, in the previous post you advised 10uF + 1uF.
> Why you have chosen 11uF and not the 22uF suggested by Analog?
> https://www.analog.com/en/technical...ahigh-psrr-lt3042-200ma-linear-regulator.html


Analog's recommendation is 4.7uF, look a little further down on the article you posted


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> dont you you want to use a bypass capacitor on the SET Pin ?  0.1 - 1µF ?


I use a 0.15uF 100V Wima MKP2, revised the description


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Inspired by the great benefit of upgrading the XO power supply of the 004 with 22µF cap's on the set pin and a LT3045 as pre regulator, I decided to go hunting for an even better XO then the Accusilicon AS318-B I was using until now. After quite some research I fond a XO that lies between the specs of my Accusilicon and the Pulsar B0bb is using.
> 
> High Performance Low Phase Noise SMD RF XO XO-91A000-LF (LV)HCMOS
> Typ. Phase Noise @ offset frequency. (FN = 100.0 MHz):
> ...


How much did it cost?
Does the manufacturer sell to end users?

The rms jitter is about 108fs, did you have to fill in export control paperwork like the Wassenaar forms?

https://www.kvg-gmbh.de/produkte/qu...tra-low-phase-noise/xo-91a000-lf.html?lang=en


----------



## Xoverman (Jun 5, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Analog's recommendation is 4.7uF, look a little further down on the article you posted


Datasheet LT3042, Page 18 :
Fast Start-Up :
For ultralow noise applications that require low 1/f noise (i.e. at frequencies below  100Hz), a larger value SET pin capacitor is required, up to 22µF.

In the LT3045 datasheet the and application notes explanation go's even further.


----------



## Xoverman (Jun 5, 2021)

b0bb said:


> How much did it cost?
> Does the manufacturer sell to end users?
> 
> The rms jitter is about 108fs, did you have to fill in export control paperwork like the Wassenaar forms?
> ...


It costs about 80€ in single pieces. 25€ in 1K quantities. Sense I own a computer company it was no problem for me to buy two XO's.
There is no export problem sense the manufacture is in Germany and I am to   . But I think production is in Taiwan.
It took three weeks for me to get the samples. I talked to a application engineer, and he told me that the company actually designated them for aerospace applications. That's the reason why they are relatively immune  agenst vibration. And now the manufacture is surprised how many high end DAC manufacturer's are asking for samples.


----------



## ESL57 (Jun 5, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> It costs about 80€ in single pieces. 25€ in 1K quantities. Sense I own a computer company it was no problem for me to buy two XO's.
> There is no export problem sense the manufacture is in Germany and I am to   . But I think production is in Taiwan.
> It took three weeks for me to get the samples. I talked to a application engineer, and he told me that the company actually designated them for aerospace applications. That's the reason why they are relatively immune  agenst vibration. And now the manufacture is surprised how many high end DAC manufacturer's are asking for samples.


This German company seems to have some oscillators of exceptional quality, I am not an expert analyzing the data sheets of the TCXO and OCXO but at first glance this one:

https://www.kvg-gmbh.de/assets/uploads/files/product_pdfs/O-70BXXXX-LPN-LGS-RF_ED1.pdf  ,for example it seems to be far superior to an Abracon AOCJY1 and surely more expensive. Our GEN1 XO regulator can be configured for 5v, although I do not know if it is shared with something else these 3.3v and it cannot be done so simply.
If it's not feasible, your XO option looks fabulous too.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 6, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Datasheet LT3042, Page 18 :
> Fast Start-Up :
> For ultralow noise applications that require low 1/f noise (i.e. at frequencies below  100Hz), a larger value SET pin capacitor is required, up to 22µF.
> 
> In the LT3045 datasheet the and application notes explanation go's even further.


The magic word here is "up to", that means don't go overboard with the bypass cap.
4.7uF is what Analog is recommending to customers, and the above is a warning not to take things too far.

4.7uF is already a very large value, other members of the LT30xx family use smaller values, LT3083 uses 0.1uF, that is 47x smaller.
I am already skirting the limits with 11uF.

This means LT3042 output voltage takes about 100x longer to stabilize.
Time is about 2.3X the RC time constant  (5 x 50k x 11uF) = 1.27s

With 22uF this is > 3s.

Analog was not kidding when they say "Fast start-up", this ultra slow start-up is the compromise to get the ultra low noise.

PSU rails taking too long to stabilize will cause the ARM processor in the Amanero to have startup/boot problems.

Do you really want to paint yourself into a corner like this?


----------



## b0bb (Jun 5, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> This German company seems to have some oscillators of exceptional quality, I am not an expert analyzing the data sheets of the TCXO and OCXO but at first glance this one:
> 
> https://www.kvg-gmbh.de/assets/uploads/files/product_pdfs/O-70BXXXX-LPN-LGS-RF_ED1.pdf  ,for example it seems to be far superior to an Abracon AOCJY1 and surely more expensive. Our GEN1 XO regulator can be configured for 5v, although I do not know if it is shared with something else these 3.3v and it cannot be done so simply.
> If it's not feasible, your XO option looks fabulous too.


The very low phase noise figure of 108fs is only possible when you keep the temperature constant.
If you don't XO-91A000-LF drifts at a rate of 25ppm.

This is a period change of 250fs for a 1℃ change in temperature

If you run the DAC with the cover off like some do here, then you are not getting the stability, so the  DAC may sound different in summer compared to winter depending on how the room is heated.

The AOCJY1 has a stability of 20-50ppb, depending on the grade, at 25ppb, drift is 1000x less , about 0.25fs.

3.3V XO line also powers the internal oscillator on the 9038Pro


----------



## b0bb (Jun 5, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> It costs about 80€ in single pieces. 25€ in 1K quantities. Sense I own a computer company it was no problem for me to buy two XO's.
> There is no export problem sense the manufacture is in Germany and I am to   . But I think production is in Taiwan.
> It took three weeks for me to get the samples. I talked to a application engineer, and he told me that the company actually designated them for aerospace applications. That's the reason why they are relatively immune  agenst vibration. And now the manufacture is surprised how many high end DAC manufacturer's are asking for samples.


Did the manufacturer say they will sell to end users ?

If you approached them as a business to business transaction, this will rule out the XO as an option for a lot of people here.

You have mentioned Pulsar numerous times.

Have you contacted Axtal?
They are in Mosbach.
https://www.axtal.com/English/Products/CrystalOscillators/OvenControlledCrystalOscillatorsOCXO/
https://www.axtal.com/cms/docs/doc99133.pdf


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Did the manufacturer say they will sell to end users ?
> 
> If you approached them as a business to business transaction, this will rule out the XO as an option for a lot of people here.
> 
> ...


I have read by diyaudio that those OCXO cost over $ 350, how much was the XO Pulsar worth at the time?


----------



## b0bb (Jun 5, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> I have read by diyaudio that those OCXO cost over $ 350, how much was the XO Pulsar worth at the time?


450 Euros.
Much less for the OEM version.
Pulsar actually added value, they actually did qualify the XO for the lowest noise.
Each Pulsar XO shipped has an individual phase noise plot for that unit.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> The very low phase noise figure of 108fs is only possible when you keep the temperature constant.
> If you don't XO-91A000-LF drifts at a rate of 25ppm.
> 
> This is a period change of 250fs for a 1℃ change in temperature
> ...


A candidate not to be taken into account, it is not necessary to complicate things with those 5v of power.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 5, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> A candidate not to be taken into account, it is not necessary to complicate things with those 5v of power.


What are you talking about ?
You cannot use 5V on the XO supply, you will blow up the 9038 as it is connected to the XO supply.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> What are you talking about ?
> You cannot use 5V on the XO supply, you will blow up the 9038 as it is connected to the XO supply.


If I understood it correctly, that's what I said, that it can't be done because the es9038 chip would enter 5v instead of 3.3v, perhaps since English is not my language, sometimes I do not make correct translations into English.


----------



## Xoverman (Jun 6, 2021)

b0bb said:


> The very low phase noise figure of 108fs is only possible when you keep the temperature constant.
> If you don't XO-91A000-LF drifts at a rate of 25ppm.
> 
> This is a period change of 250fs for a 1℃ change in temperature
> ...


From the Datasheet:

Frequency stability 25ppm overall including:
- initial frequency tolerance after reflow
- vs. temperature range 
- vs. supply voltage changes VS ± 5 %
- vs. load changes ± 10 %
- aging for 10 years

They say 25ppm over temperature range ( -40 °C to +85 °C ) plus all the other changes , not for a 1℃ change in temperature.

Low G-Sensitivity is a nother huge benefit of this XO. So transformer vibration will not have such a bit effective on jitter.


----------



## ESL57

ESL57 said:


> A candidate not to be taken into account, it is not necessary to complicate things with those 5v of power.


By this I meant that the OCXO *O-70BXXXX-LF *of KVG that I mentioned is at 5v and that if the *TPS7A4700RGWR *3.3v regulator was shared with the es9038 chip for example it was no longer worth having to put an additional low noise module and 5v only for the OCXO, more complications when there are options from OCXO to 3.3v.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> The magic word here is "up to", that means don't go overboard with the bypass cap.
> 4.7uF is what Analog is recommending to customers, and the above is a warning not to take things too far.
> 
> 4.7uF is already a very large value, other members of the LT30xx family use smaller values, LT3083 uses 0.1uF, that is 47x smaller.
> ...


ANALOG DEVICE'S would never mention 22uF in there Datasheet  / Application Notes, if it was not safe to use within there regulator circuit. 
They also say it's the maximum you should use, and the highest safe value. If the standard SET Pin change time is to slow, you can program fast change. 
I've modified two DAC's with this value now, without any problem. Bass definition benefits extremely by this mod. 
Unfortunately B0bb can not try / test this Mod, because his secondary clock regulator is not a LT3042 / LT3045 .


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> A candidate not to be taken into account, it is not necessary to complicate things with those 5v of power.


XO-91A000-LF  is a 3.3V Device


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> XO-91A000-LF  is a 3.3V Device


Many here have tried multiple XOs with different characteristics, I already heard 4 different ones on my 004 and they were all TCXOs, each one was different but not by much,
Crystek 575
Connor Winfield TB612
Accusilicon AS318
Crystek 950x
His KVG is not TCXO, it is XO the something different, but if I try a fifth I would like first that it was an OCXO, something different, besides I am one of the few who can in GEN1 without too many changes. Currently just enjoying the music, next week I will try to install the LT3083 regulator and some little extra upgrade.
It's a shame not to be closer to each other to hear different LKS004s with different clocks.


----------



## piaseczek

ESL57 said:


> Many here have tried multiple XOs with different characteristics, I already heard 4 different ones on my 004 and they were all TCXOs, each one was different but not by much,
> Crystek 575
> Connor Winfield TB612
> Accusilicon AS318
> Crystek 950x



As far as I know both Crysteks you have mentioned are not TCXOs, they are standard clock oscillators.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> ANALOG DEVICE'S would never mention 22uF in there Datasheet  / Application Notes, if it was not safe to use within there regulator circuit.
> They also say it's the maximum you should use, and the highest safe value. If the standard SET Pin change time is to slow, you can program fast change.
> I've modified two DAC's with this value now, without any problem. Bass definition benefits extremely by this mod.
> Unfortunately B0bb can not try / test this Mod, because his secondary clock regulator is not a LT3042 / LT3045 .


@piaseczek  asked about why I did not use the 22uF for the LT3042 for the regulator for the Amanero.
It is not safe to use this mod as it disrupts the power up sequencing requirements of the Atmel microcontroller

Pay closer attention, we were not talking about your XO regulator mod.


----------



## piaseczek

B0bb,
Should the FPCAPs before and after the TPS7A47 be replaced to 820uF and 100uF? This parcicular TPS7A47 is among others for the line drivers.


----------



## ESL57

piaseczek said:


> As far as I know both Crysteks you have mentioned are not TCXOs, they are standard clock oscillators.


Yes, sorry the Crysteks are XO not TCXO, the next one will be some OCXO just to see and listen to almost the entire range of 100Mhz cloks, long ago I bought a 10Mhz OCXO module and installed it in the BNC input of my U16 (10MLCK) , the module heats up like a stove but I like the sound better when I put it in OSC EXT in my Gustard than in OSC INT, especially sound in PCM wins in body, well I have little more to improve, I am designing a source of external power, but in summer I do not think that this design theme, it will be later, I will put the scheme in case some of you want to comment on what I am going to do, surely there will be things that can be improved.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> Should the FPCAPs before and after the TPS7A47 be replaced to 820uF and 100uF? This parcicular TPS7A47 is among others for the line drivers.


If the picture is the stock setup I think the change would be incremental.
Consider doing this after upgrading the primary regulator to a LT3083 or similar.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 6, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Yes, sorry the Crysteks are XO not TCXO, the next one will be some OCXO just to see and listen to almost the entire range of 100Mhz cloks, long ago I bought a 10Mhz OCXO module and installed it in the BNC input of my U16 (10MLCK) , the module heats up like a stove but I like the sound better when I put it in OSC EXT in my Gustard than in OSC INT, especially sound in PCM wins in body, well I have little more to improve, I am designing a source of external power, but in summer I do not think that this design theme, it will be later, I will put the scheme in case some of you want to comment on what I am going to do, surely there will be things that can be improved.


If want to try a good TCXO look at the SIT-5357.
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/SiTime/SiT5357AI-FQ-33N0-100000000X?qs=gTYE2QTfZfSK84/PcXFFEA==

This is a 0.1ppm (100ppb) MEMS unit.
I have it and there are at least 2 others who have used it (@oldearwax ,@ti5002000 )

There is a newer SIT-5359 at 0.05ppm (50ppb) as well but it gets expensive.
Designed to compete with OCXOs, quite new and limited in availability.
If you want to go further Digikey offers customization of almost all of SiTime's product range.
They have not added SiTime's Emerald OCXOs  to the program yet, when they do this would be a strong competitor to the Pulsar.

(PS I think you are starting to see the value of an OCXO, imagine what it can do for you if it powered the 9038's master clock).


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> If the picture is the stock setup I think the change would be incremental.
> Consider doing this after upgrading the primary regulator to a LT3083 or similar.


B0bb,
It will be done with the LM317's replacement to the LT3083 and yes, it's all the stock setup. 

Do you recommend the LT3073 also for the analog power supply of the es9038?


----------



## ESL57

Just as a curious anecdote, this may be one of more expensive OCXO that Digikey has in stock for sale 1.373 € :
https://www.digikey.es/product-detail/es/taitien/NA-100M-6911/1664-1592-ND/9649712
 it works at 5v and is sine wave, the dacs use HCMOS output XO, B0bb what happens if a dac receives a sine wave? it's just for curiosity


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> It will be done with the LM317's replacement to the LT3083 and yes, it's all the stock setup.
> 
> Do you recommend the LT3073 also for the analog power supply of the es9038?


On the 004 the digital and analog for the 9038 supplies are tied together, cannot really do much without cutting up the board.
I used the Belleson SPX17, it  can be replaced by the LT3083 as it is about 6x cheaper.







If you mean replacing the discrete series-shunt analog supply, that is too much work and the stock regulators are doing a good enough job.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 6, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Just as a curious anecdote, this may be one of more expensive OCXO that Digikey has in stock for sale 1.373 € :
> https://www.digikey.es/product-detail/es/taitien/NA-100M-6911/1664-1592-ND/9649712
> it works at 5v and is sine wave, the dacs use HCMOS output XO, B0bb what happens if a dac receives a sine wave? it's just for curiosity


The DPLL will see increased jitter due to amplitude variations in the sine wave.
You need a specialized chip called a sine to square converter, there is a price to be paid in terms of jitter.
This is hard work to get very low jitter and is best left up to the manufacturer.

1.373 € is an excessive amount to spend, Digikey has better options that will do the job

ECOC-2522 is about 95€ and Digikey Spain has  5 in stock

Phase noise calculated from the table below is 65.3fs
0.005ppm (5ppb) Temp stability

https://www.digikey.es/product-detail/es/ecs-inc/ECOC-2522-100-000-3FC/XC2265-ND/6578492






I have attached the pdf for more detailed plots.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> On the 004 the digital and analog for the 9038 supplies are tied together, cannot really do much without cutting up the board.
> I used the Belleson SPX17, it  can be replaced by the LT3083.


By "analog" I meant the 3.3V power supply for the es9038. It will be powered by first LT3083.
The second LT3083 will power the line drivers and the core of the es9038 (1.2V power supply).


----------



## b0bb (Jun 6, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> By "analog" I meant the 3.3V power supply for the es9038. It will be powered by first LT3083.
> The second LT3083 will power the line drivers and the core of the es9038 (1.2V power supply).


I used Belleson for that one.

Keep in mind there is 1.2V and 3.3V analog power.


----------



## piaseczek (Jun 7, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Yes, sorry the Crysteks are XO not TCXO, the next one will be some OCXO just to see and listen to almost the entire range of 100Mhz cloks, long ago I bought a 10Mhz OCXO module and installed it in the BNC input of my U16 (10MLCK) , the module heats up like a stove but I like the sound better when I put it in OSC EXT in my Gustard than in OSC INT, especially sound in PCM wins in body, well I have little more to improve, I am designing a source of external power, but in summer I do not think that this design theme, it will be later, I will put the scheme in case some of you want to comment on what I am going to do, surely there will be things that can be improved.



ESL57,
Did you try the bypass/noise reduction capacitor mod for the XO?
In your case it will be 1uF to replace for the TPS7A47. Some time ago B0bb send a link to the specific part.

Si-time TCXO and probably most of the OCXOs have built in regulator, that's why they are more immune to quality of the power supply. Crysteks base purely on the TPS7A47.

OCXO are for sure the best option but also very expensive.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> The magic word here is "up to", that means don't go overboard with the bypass cap.
> 4.7uF is what Analog is recommending to customers, and the above is a warning not to take things too far.
> 
> 4.7uF is already a very large value, other members of the LT30xx family use smaller values, LT3083 uses 0.1uF, that is 47x smaller.
> ...


Well you are almost right. 
In standard mode when considering 3V as OK then charge up time would be about 2s. Which of course is still too long.
But in fast start mode 25-30ms. That should be fast enough for the arm processor in the amanero. 
Just multiply all the values in the picture down below times 5.


----------



## ESL57

piaseczek said:


> ESL57,
> Did you try the bypass/noise reduction capacitor mod for the XO?
> In your case it will be 1uF to replace for the TPS7A47. Some time ago B0bb send a link to the specific part.
> 
> ...


If you mean this capacitor, you can see that I change it to the recommended Rubycon of 1uf, https://www.digikey.es/product-detail/es/rubycon/25MU105MA23216/1189-2520-1-ND/4969578
I am going to improve the digital power supplies to oversize them as some have done around here, after that, I will order an OCXO, it will be the last one I install in this dac. If the sound takes a step forward and the result is good, I am going to make you a low noise external source as the final icing on the cake.


----------



## piaseczek

EsL57,
Sorry, I didn't notice that you were after this mod.
You could also replace the bypass capacitor for the XO to the C0G type.


----------



## Xoverman

A word about jitter.

If your goal during the mods of the LKS 004 is to have the highest possible Imaging, Bass definition and Soundstage depth, you have to get rid of as much power supply noise as possible. Every little bit of Noise will influence the clock phase of the XO, and also the phase noise inside the DAC chips. ( Jitter )

And interestingly enough the most complicated noise to get rid of is noise below 100 Hz, getting more complicated the further you go down in frequency. Now I am not talking about a couple of mV’s, I’m talking about µVolts and nVolts. Very hard to achieve but defiantly worth it, and very rewording.

That's why 22µF on the LT3045 is so important. A higher value would even be nicer, but is not supported by Analog Devices !!!

It is also very important to open up capacitor ripple current loops running ripple from one side of the PCB to the other. Static currents are not such a big problem, but can sometimes cause infrasonics. The best way is to take all the high current ripple stuff out of the DAC into a separate casing with a good pre voltage regulation. If there is no Ripple on the Supply voltages, then there are no ripple loops between the capacitors.
As a proof of concept, I made the first step by bringing the rectifier and first filter Capacitor stage for the +/-16.5V Supply away from the main PCB. ( Very impressive )

Another important cause of jitter is vibration. Most standard XO’s are very sensitive to vibration. Exceptions are mostly aerospace components.
Vibration is mostly generated by the Transformer’s in the DAC followed by the first rectification Capacitor. The best way to dampen the capacitor vibration is to put some “Blu Tack” between the PCB and the chassis right underneath the capacitor.

Another form of Jitter is not produced by the DAC itself. It comes from the DataStream that transports the music content. USB timing intervals, buffers running empty. That's nothing else then low frequency jitter. And it smears everything. Try to maximize the Data buffer size on the receiving device. Turn of as many services on you PC as possible. Every little bit helps.

Cheers from Germany


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> A word about jitter.
> 
> If your goal during the mods of the LKS 004 is to have the highest possible Imaging, Bass definition and Soundstage depth, you have to get rid of as much power supply noise as possible. Every little bit of Noise will influence the clock phase of the XO, and also the phase noise inside the DAC chips. ( Jitter )
> 
> ...


That is why I want to take the power supply as much as possible to the outside in a separate box, I want to put a quality connector multi contacts in the place of the original Furutech ac connector and that the main pcb can be removed together with this conector for repairs and adjustments. What I hear today in sq with this dac makes me think it deserves this last effort. I think that it is more time and labor than expenses of electronic components, perhaps a quality box is the most expensive.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> That is why I want to take the power supply as much as possible to the outside in a separate box, I want to put a quality connector multi contacts in the place of the original Furutech ac connector and that the main pcb can be removed together with this conector for repairs and adjustments. What I hear today in sq with this dac makes me think it deserves this last effort. I think that it is more time and labor than expenses of electronic components, perhaps a quality box is the most expensive.


There is so much that can be done. I'm thinking about trying R-CORE transformers. And reverse parallel Power supplys.


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> There is so much that can be done. I'm thinking about trying R-CORE transformers. And reverse parallel Power supplys.


I still keep my industrial transformer winding machine, I have copper spools of all diameters and many high quality C-CORE cores that I used for power supply and output transformers for tubes, (to this day it is no longer worth it make anything) I don't have R-CORE, but I can custom make any C-CORE transformer that is the closest thing to R-CORE. The art was in winding bifilar or trifilar, past times and everything is industrial. The last thing I made a few days ago were transformers to feed the filaments of some 211 triodes for high-end DIY tube amplifiers.


----------



## BottleFred

Hello everyone!

I'm a proud owner of only the MH-DA004 board.
So what I still need are the transformers, a display and a remote control to make it happen 

Can someone tell me what the ampere values are of the 2 transformers? (the voltages are easy to read from the pictures here on the site).
And maybe someone knows where I can get an AB or a display? (I have already written to MU-SOUND, but haven't heard anything yet...)
Thanks in advance!


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Well you are almost right.
> In standard mode when considering 3V as OK then charge up time would be about 2s. Which of course is still too long.
> But in fast start mode 25-30ms. That should be fast enough for the arm processor in the amanero.
> Just multiply all the values in the picture down below times 5.



That is correct, without fast start mode your 22uF mod will not work for the LT3042 on the Amanero USB power supply.
I assume you have tested  this before recommending this for the Amanero.

Please post pictures and detailed instructions of how fast start mode can be added to the Amanero USB power supply so that @piaseczek and other interested parties can implement your mod for the Amanero.


----------



## b0bb

BottleFred said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> I'm a proud owner of only the MH-DA004 board.
> So what I still need are the transformers, a display and a remote control to make it happen
> ...


You could fit 2x50VA transformers. inside the case.
You will need the following windings:
2x 15V@1A
4X 6.5V@1-1.5A
1X 6.5V@2-2.5A


----------



## BottleFred

Great! Thank you b0bb!


----------



## ESL57

BottleFred said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> I'm a proud owner of only the MH-DA004 board.
> So what I still need are the transformers, a display and a remote control to make it happen
> ...


AB I suppose you mean the Amanero module, if you get the right transformers you can try the main board, it will sound without the display / keyboard module as long as the last time it was not removed in active USB mode or you will need a Amanero board if you don't have. The last time the input that was memorized will be active and if the volume is not kept to the minimum sound will come out, if you are lucky enough that it will stay in AES, OPT, COAX, I2S etc, you can try it, the display / keyboard module you will have to get it from the manufacturer It won't be easy to find that in the second-hand market I think.


----------



## BottleFred

Thank you ESL57! Worthful info! AB is a type-o sorry, what I ment was a remote...
I've already ordered an Amanero module, the board is new and never used.
I'm also trying to find a audiostreamer with an i2s output (but found alot of NO messages on this), so maybe a streamer with USB-output will be the way to go.


----------



## oldearwax

From LT3042 datasheet:

 Fast start_up is activated if PGFB pin is less than 300mV, then 2mA is sourced to SET pin.

 By routing Vout to PGFB via a resistor divider (RGP2, RGP1), this keeps PGFB less than 300mV
 (during startup) until Vout rises.
 On page 4, values  of RGP2 and RGP1 are suggested.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 8, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> I still keep my industrial transformer winding machine, I have copper spools of all diameters and many high quality C-CORE cores that I used for power supply and output transformers for tubes, (to this day it is no longer worth it make anything) I don't have R-CORE, but I can custom make any C-CORE transformer that is the closest thing to R-CORE. The art was in winding bifilar or trifilar, past times and everything is industrial. The last thing I made a few days ago were transformers to feed the filaments of some 211 triodes for high-end DIY tube amplifiers.


Have you tried experimenting with making double electrostatic shields ?
Stock arrangement has multiple 6.5V windings sharing the same core and I am wondering if shielding between the secondaries might reduce the spill over of noise from the noisier supplies like the micro-controller and the line drivers.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Have you tried experimenting with making double electrostatic shields ?
> Stock arrangement has multiple 6.5V windings sharing the same core and I am wondering if shielding between the secondaries might reduce the spill over of noise from the noisier supplies like the micro-controller and the line drivers.


Yes, I have made a electrotatic shield between primary and secondary but not double. You mean this but between each secondary? Maybe 3 transformers would be even better?
https://www.digikey.com/en/articles...n-transformers-and-how-to-select-and-use-them


----------



## b0bb (Jun 8, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Yes, I have made a electrotatic shield between primary and secondary but not double. You mean this but between each secondary? Maybe 3 transformers would be even better?
> https://www.digikey.com/en/articles...n-transformers-and-how-to-select-and-use-them


Yes.
1 screen pri-sec
1 screen sec-sec

Isolation is not aim here just the reduction of interwinding capacitance which reduces noise coupling

Need 6 transformers if using individual transformers, this becomes a question of space.


----------



## Xoverman (Jun 8, 2021)

BottleFred said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> I'm a proud owner of only the MH-DA004 board.
> So what I still need are the transformers, a display and a remote control to make it happen
> ...


L.K.S Audio MH-DA004 Dual ES9038pro Flagship DAC Gen II  Power Supply


----------



## BottleFred

Wow! Nice that clears things. Thank you Xoverman! I guess the 220 to 240 voltage difference translate to higher AC input values?


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Yes.
> 1 screen pri-sec
> 1 screen sec-sec
> 
> ...


The new power supply with new transformers is underway, there is no turning back, I will try to measure the noise in the original transformers and in the custom ones when the first prototype is finished. The insanity has no solution, perhaps the side effects of the Covid19 vaccine?


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> L.K.S Audio MH-DA004 Dual ES9038pro Flagship DAC Gen II  Power Supply


How well this schematic has been Xoverman, a photo of the dac listing the location of each specific source would be to curl the curl. Nice job!


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> How well this schematic has been Xoverman, a photo of the dac listing the location of each specific source would be to curl the curl. Nice job!


Those are the locations when you stand in front of the DAC and look down on the PCB.


----------



## piaseczek (Jun 8, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> L.K.S Audio MH-DA004 Dual ES9038pro Flagship DAC Gen II  Power Supply



Thank you Xoverman, very informative👍

Xoverman, B0bb,
I would like you to confirm that I fully understand - the Gen 1 differs from the Gen 2 because voltage for "dac chip core regulator" is not taken from the same preregulator as "analog regulator for both DACs". The preregulator for "dac chip core regulator" is used also for the line drivers in the Gen 2. "Analog regulator for both DACs" supplies both, the digital and analog side (3.3v) of the es9038. Right?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Thank you Xoverman, very informative👍
> 
> Xoverman, B0bb,
> I would like you to confirm that I fully understand - the Gen 1 differs from the Gen 2 because voltage for "dac chip core regulator" is not taken from the same preregulator as "analog regulator for both DACs". The preregulator for "dac chip core regulator" is used also for the line drivers in the Gen 2. "Analog regulator for both DACs" supplies both, the digital and analog side (3.3v) of the es9038. Right?


There are differences in the PSU arrangements.
Post a picture of your board


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> The new power supply with new transformers is underway, there is no turning back, I will try to measure the noise in the original transformers and in the custom ones when the first prototype is finished. The insanity has no solution, perhaps the side effects of the Covid19 vaccine?


Try this on the line driver and microcontroller feeds. I am assuming these are 6.5V AC.


----------



## BottleFred

Xoverman said:


> L.K.S Audio MH-DA004 Dual ES9038pro Flagship DAC Gen II  Power Supply


Looking at the AC input and capacitor values, wouldn't it be possible (and easier) to use 6V or maybe preferably 9V windings? (standard windings)
And 18V for the "17V" inputs? Or will it cause too much drop (heat) on the regulators?


----------



## ESL57

BottleFred said:


> Looking at the AC input and capacitor values, wouldn't it be possible (and easier) to use 6V or maybe preferably 9V windings? (standard windings)
> And 18V for the "17V" inputs? Or will it cause too much drop (heat) on the regulators?


You can put here a photo of the top and another of the bottom of your main board, I think you have not done this, so the users here will know what version you have and will better help you in future doubts you may have.


----------



## BottleFred

ESL57 said:


> You can put here a photo of the top and another of the bottom of your main board, I think you have not done this, so the users here will know what version you have and will better help you in future doubts you may have.


Great thanks, I'll post it tomorrow!


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> There are differences in the PSU arrangements.
> Post a picture of your board


B0bb,
Take a look here:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-15958761


----------



## BottleFred

ESL57 said:


> You can put here a photo of the top and another of the bottom of your main board, I think you have not done this, so the users here will know what version you have and will better help you in future doubts you may have.


Hi, got just 1 (poor quality) photo now, tomorrow I'll add more.
I've found 6V and 18V transformers, will they do the trick?


----------



## BottleFred

BottleFred said:


> Hi, got just 1 (poor quality) photo now, tomorrow I'll add more.
> I've found 6V and 18V transformers, will they do the trick?


Wooops type-o... 18V= 15V (question is would 6V be enough instead of 6,5V)


----------



## BottleFred

BottleFred said:


> Wooops type-o... 18V= 15V (question is would 6V be enough instead of 6,5V)


7V is also easily found, maybe thats the better choice?


----------



## ESL57 (Jun 9, 2021)

BottleFred said:


> 7V is also easily found, maybe thats the better choice?


Try looking for toroidal transformers for use in audio tube filaments they are 6.3vac and easy to get.
Similar to this but only with 6.3v outputs:
https://www.ebay.es/itm/274411133015?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item3fe42d9857:g:Zi8AAOSwLIJe-Bib&amdata=enc:AQAFAAACkBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkY3FSd4Ad8xn3oRtkVexxrKWO1D2rS5ADBC9k5wjUXRFfKJ8oT8dyCbGj%2BJV72ArMXAYWrQ0uH2L%2Fr8UcIYpez8zCHNqjDOGZfKhsFfDCZOcSuWp%2BEyrIft0sbtqWWOf5ZIxasVIVZ8sb3MvX1Uxl3gESuPKmYAdbb7cLST1t0u9ocH0qNgsP8fV1vonXp7YQ2Ab9hxN1IGhlyn6FuiCtHPgzHEPxe3R3FqBLqiT4D5GDLR9JrAluLGuNxfVOIvTs8e1DOHBefZYti6s%2B8%2FDynHME7sggbrD0%2BVkgjHQliGseMIHSVvnXybK952bOT%2FWsycn7u4iiqpk4FGQTl2AMJMAmxns2R9Zyg7eBNGZiQ6QgSSK0g928e40E3xlic2f1qSxZ7C%2FIpwe8uTo%2B12JkG2dPAYLawf0dwPyJHKupAM941zFj7cfTupBKC83igav2s7upEN0qE6yHadD3MIrYMFjxHybjGRKnSMYncihFY7Qc19ewhFQ3mpHahrkZRKCiC0NVg03uffMv5wj%2FMOzJYEmSv8wty8uDNhnM9eSlhgNvZ0awUim7Mg0E0fc7e0vEirIrFL%2BRYBe3FB6ioQmJURvhmVGp%2BNYOMDtwYuhsT%2FPX9HdjEafd0FRYakseeWZunLZR%2F8rOzTQaxKBrVmYS8vDowOzWDsehp7Dm6XIIvLi4cdazwU30kRN7YscwAF9ngDn5vo5t3txPomjQCdZ%2F0OWz6cAvZgq7oNUvXZ0AqaajQ7%2FLlsszlV%2BL%2FSvyXerYkQ%2FL0TzPdrWjPszqeqTU8tZEs%2FzrcRq5z4fRIeB2eaveU%2FywJMuFNVkyi7w0hLH1|cksum:2744111330157936f75d89b84a8f81e6a4c9068c5699|ampidL_CLK|clp:2334524

And something like this for 15vac x 2
https://www.ebay.es/itm/291531195474?hash=item43e09d0452:g:ORMAAOSwgQ9VwJbz


----------



## Redspot (Jun 9, 2021)

Excuse me. I couldn't get used to writing, so I posted it twice.


----------



## Xoverman

Update :


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Try looking for toroidal transformers for use in audio tube filaments they are 6.3vac and easy to get.
> Similar to this but only with 6.3v outputs:
> https://www.ebay.es/itm/274411133015?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item3fe42d9857:g:Zi8AAOSwLIJe-Bib&amdata=enc:AQAFAAACkBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkY3FSd4Ad8xn3oRtkVexxrKWO1D2rS5ADBC9k5wjUXRFfKJ8oT8dyCbGj%2BJV72ArMXAYWrQ0uH2L%2Fr8UcIYpez8zCHNqjDOGZfKhsFfDCZOcSuWp%2BEyrIft0sbtqWWOf5ZIxasVIVZ8sb3MvX1Uxl3gESuPKmYAdbb7cLST1t0u9ocH0qNgsP8fV1vonXp7YQ2Ab9hxN1IGhlyn6FuiCtHPgzHEPxe3R3FqBLqiT4D5GDLR9JrAluLGuNxfVOIvTs8e1DOHBefZYti6s%2B8%2FDynHME7sggbrD0%2BVkgjHQliGseMIHSVvnXybK952bOT%2FWsycn7u4iiqpk4FGQTl2AMJMAmxns2R9Zyg7eBNGZiQ6QgSSK0g928e40E3xlic2f1qSxZ7C%2FIpwe8uTo%2B12JkG2dPAYLawf0dwPyJHKupAM941zFj7cfTupBKC83igav2s7upEN0qE6yHadD3MIrYMFjxHybjGRKnSMYncihFY7Qc19ewhFQ3mpHahrkZRKCiC0NVg03uffMv5wj%2FMOzJYEmSv8wty8uDNhnM9eSlhgNvZ0awUim7Mg0E0fc7e0vEirIrFL%2BRYBe3FB6ioQmJURvhmVGp%2BNYOMDtwYuhsT%2FPX9HdjEafd0FRYakseeWZunLZR%2F8rOzTQaxKBrVmYS8vDowOzWDsehp7Dm6XIIvLi4cdazwU30kRN7YscwAF9ngDn5vo5t3txPomjQCdZ%2F0OWz6cAvZgq7oNUvXZ0AqaajQ7%2FLlsszlV%2BL%2FSvyXerYkQ%2FL0TzPdrWjPszqeqTU8tZEs%2FzrcRq5z4fRIeB2eaveU%2FywJMuFNVkyi7w0hLH1|cksum:2744111330157936f75d89b84a8f81e6a4c9068c5699|ampidL_CLK|clp:2334524
> 
> ...


Depending on which transformer segment you wont to power, 6,3v is not enough.


----------



## Redspot

Redspot said:


> Hello. Nice to meet you. I am a user in Japan.
> I am using the OEM version of MH-DA004.
> The clock is replaced with a MUSETEC (It's -108.6 dB at 10 Hz.) clock as shown below, and the transformer is replaced with an O-type transformer.
> However, RCA plugs have been replaced with cheaper ones.
> I don't know much about electricity, but I appreciate your understanding.


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Depending on which transformer segment you wont to power, 6,3v is not enough.


Well the ideals would be the original ones, if he have to finally get the display module from the manufacturer, you could request a quote for the transformers also from MUSETEC.


----------



## BottleFred

Xoverman said:


> Depending on which transformer segment you wont to power, 6,3v is not enough.


Okay, Thanks for thinking along! But will 7V be too much?


----------



## BottleFred

ESL57 said:


> Well the ideals would be the original ones, if he have to finally get the display module from the manufacturer, you could request a quote for the transformers also from MUSETEC.


Actually that was the first thing I've done... But it remains all quiet on the "eastern" front...


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Update :


Excellent work, if we do the equivalent scheme in GEN1


----------



## ESL57 (Jun 9, 2021)

Redspot said: The clock is replaced with a MUSETEC (It's -108.6 dB at 10 Hz.) clock as shown below, and the transformer is replaced with an O-type transformer.
However, RCA plugs have been replaced with cheaper ones.

These components that you list were requested by you or are already in the current version for sale?.


----------



## Redspot

Redspot said:


> It is not what the user wants, but the seller studies it, remodels it and sells it. It's still a prototype, not in the current version for sale.





ESL57 said:


> Redspot said: The clock is replaced with a MUSETEC (It's -108.6 dB at 10 Hz.) clock as shown below, and the transformer is replaced with an O-type transformer.
> However, RCA plugs have been replaced with cheaper ones.
> 
> These components that you list were requested by you or are already in the current version for sale?.


----------



## ESL57

BottleFred said:


> Okay, Thanks for thinking along! But will 7V be too much?


In China there is usually almost everything, same option for filaments but with 6.5vac x2, I suppose that browsing the internet you can find something that is similar to the original transformers in number of windings, voltages / currents

https://www.ebay.es/itm/35312107503...e2M4aLY1K%2F5wm07Hvc|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2047675


----------



## BottleFred

ESL57 said:


> In China there is usually almost everything, same option for filaments but with 6.5vac x2, I suppose that browsing the internet you can find something that is similar to the original transformers in number of windings, voltages / currents
> 
> https://www.ebay.es/itm/353121075035?_trkparms=aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=1&asc=20201210111314&meid=85683dcd51de419cb9344429fe616007&pid=101195&rk=4&rkt=12&sd=274411133015&itm=353121075035&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplAMLv9PairwiseUnbiasedWeb&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum:35312107503585683dcd51de419cb9344429fe616007|enc:AQAFAAACAII8DU6EvKCwboxYlA%2ByDBXPWqKRMsoMiO%2FUf7j6ld3DPa2FGR8Y9nL9BeVFUySFDJslfQDnrO4I58D7eMWTRazQj5Fh4K%2BLlAW0OOlwLSKv%2FzGnzvYFEyNjKNlj9ngjrJlRgl3F0LE3%2B6YM31qY05ZQFHWBaxvVtfJee%2Fv6jR27%2FNyvboGVB%2FdCjJRlsasVqo4fT3TERpkJlga%2F5HC6CZYdL4jLQQF1I8ReQAb7yvTgDEPszjbY1JRB4tqVkisAw3UApOMmMB48%2BOrWFMXnrcv7tOmPCqqCizmbcBfihFj638O6I3h1fkeSuCC9%2FvW%2BTEGBKL0KVb5c2rldG%2Fp%2BBlm00%2FXRfppAPzEpTnjG30AU63yYujKm8qvgqopqoJbLj5ce8vwCsCLLJvHRh49tPcOi1O4J1FRz1qOJVPwbTu%2FH9gJC2T1%2BhfWzuWTr0GuSBWzINT809Q%2F2yDncn3sprc4j6Q82LMyYhGGifYrWaD8cGkA2F%2FIwYaXtzxwZdEhmGSj3AKxeoG9%2FurEc9D%2BNQ48xeyGYC%2BgcisrUIEDJklKuldAfHyudVbZ019QAPdweFrS%2FDIuxH%2FkCjo%2BEp9yk9Q1bihh1Uz0EBDg7qBtK93PnrdxGC8me%2Fp01j%2Bj5lDSuAZN4EVbkozjmjK8%2BeKzSV7WE8Ze2M4aLY1K%2F5wm07Hvc|ampidL_CLK|clp:2047675


Yeah Thanks! I saw those, but 220 @ 6.5V will be 6,95 on 235 (what i have at home).
I'll order two 230V-2x 7V  transformers and perhaps use a resistor to drop a little to the values in the diagram.
Many thanks to all!!!

Maybe one more question: I'm gonna try this:  https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/diy-...bre-90x8-controller-with-display-p-13970.html
And try to get it to work (if not I can return so there's a really nice policy here!).
Has anyone a diagram or perhaps the pinning of the original display?


----------



## ESL57 (Jun 9, 2021)

BottleFred said:


> Yeah Thanks! I saw those, but 220 @ 6.5V will be 6,95 on 235 (what i have at home).
> I'll order two 230V-2x 7V  transformers and perhaps use a resistor to drop a little to the values in the diagram.
> Many thanks to all!!!
> 
> ...


That information that you finally ask is for the most experts of the thread, it seems a complex issue where you want to get, that accessory says compatible with the ES9038Q2M version and not the ES9038PRO, and also for the port of a raspberry Pi, too much engineering to do that both understand the LKS board and that module (I think), insists with MUSETEC it will be the fastest way to happiness IMO. Have what others think about here.


----------



## BottleFred

ESL57 said:


> That information that you finally ask is for the most experts of the thread, it seems a complex issue where you want to get, that accessory says compatible with the ES9038Q2M version and not the ES9038PRO, and also for the port of a raspberry Pi, too much engineering to do that both understand the LKS board and that module (I think), insists with MUSETEC it will be the fastest way to happiness IMO. Have what others think about here.


Thanks again for your reply ESL57.
Yes, I know it's a long shot, but when I don't get an answer from te MU-SOUND @-adresses, I have to think of something else...
Bytheway, it's a misunderstanding that I'll use the RPI in between, I want to use the controller-board/display directly onto the LKS board (hopefully I can determine the correct pinning).


----------



## oldearwax

BottleFred said:


> Thanks again for your reply ESL57.
> Yes, I know it's a long shot, but when I don't get an answer from te MU-SOUND @-adresses, I have to think of something else...
> Bytheway, it's a misunderstanding that I'll use the RPI in between, I want to use the controller-board/display directly onto the LKS board (hopefully I can determine the correct pinning).


Both ES9038Q2M  and ES9038PRO use I2C interface. I check I2C timing of both ES9038Q2M  and ES9038PRO and they are identical.
I2C interface has two signals: SCL (clock), SDA (data). Multiple devices can be hung off this two-signal bus.
Find out the i2c pinouts on the Ian Canada board and the LKS DAC board....


----------



## BottleFred

oldearwax said:


> Both ES9038Q2M  and ES9038PRO use I2C interface. I check I2C timing of both ES9038Q2M  and ES9038PRO and they are identical.
> I2C interface has two signals: SCL (clock), SDA (data). Multiple devices can be hung off this two-signal bus.
> Find out the i2c pinouts on the Ian Canada board and the LKS DAC board....


That's great news! Thank you for your reply oldearwax! 
The hunt for the pinout begins


----------



## BottleFred

oldearwax said:


> Both ES9038Q2M  and ES9038PRO use I2C interface. I check I2C timing of both ES9038Q2M  and ES9038PRO and they are identical.
> I2C interface has two signals: SCL (clock), SDA (data). Multiple devices can be hung off this two-signal bus.
> Find out the i2c pinouts on the Ian Canada board and the LKS DAC board....


Canada board is specified, so that's good.


----------



## b0bb

BottleFred said:


> Canada board is specified, so that's good.


The micro-controller on the 004 is actually on the main board, it programs the 9038s, this is why the DAC runs without the display.

You will need to cut the I2C lines coming out of the stock microcontroller if you want to use the IANCanada board.
The stock micro-controller is the square chip next to the USB interface.

Once you have done this you need an I2C bus analyzer like a bus pirate to check the wire protocol used over I2C
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12942


----------



## BottleFred

b0bb said:


> The micro-controller on the 004 is actually on the main board, it programs the 9038s, this is why the DAC runs without the display.
> 
> You will need to cut the I2C lines coming out of the stock microcontroller if you want to use the IANCanada board.
> The stock micro-controller is the square chip next to the USB interface.
> ...


jaiks, don't want to damage the board just yet...


----------



## BottleFred

ESL57 said:


> You can put here a photo of the top and another of the bottom of your main board, I think you have not done this, so the users here will know what version you have and will better help you in future doubts you may have.


As promised a few photo's of the board.
It actually says 15V en 9V on the bottom side!


----------



## BottleFred

b0bb said:


> The micro-controller on the 004 is actually on the main board, it programs the 9038s, this is why the DAC runs without the display.
> 
> You will need to cut the I2C lines coming out of the stock microcontroller if you want to use the IANCanada board.
> The stock micro-controller is the square chip next to the USB interface.
> ...


I don't think I need the Bus Pirate, but thanks for the tip!


----------



## BottleFred

BottleFred said:


> I don't think I need the Bus Pirate, but thanks for the tip!



Figured out which pin goes where.


----------



## oldearwax

Hello BottleFred, it*appears* that the LKS DAC board is using SPI (pins MISO, MOSI, SCLK, SS) protocol to communicate with the display.
It is easier for you to look for an SPI compatible display.


----------



## BottleFred

oldearwax said:


> Hello BottleFred, it*appears* that the LKS DAC board is using SPI (pins MISO, MOSI, SCLK, SS) protocol to communicate with the display.
> It is easier for you to look for an SPI compatible display.


Hello oldearwax, thanks again! 
BTW I found the specs of the used display in the LKS: http://hkw5b57f3.pic33.websiteonline.cn/upload/KH202MDA2-1.pdf

Still not sure how to toggle my way around the buttons (input/volume etc)


----------



## oldearwax

My bad ... the LKS display uses a parallel interface.

To use Ian Canada's controller board, this is what he said:
    Works with external ESS DAC

    It's also possible to make this ESS controller working as a dedicated controller of
    an external ESS DAC even without a Raspberry Pi.

   To do so, you will need:
   1. Solder the 10 wires of the cable to the footprint of J3.
   2. Connect the wires of the cable to the corresponding signal pins of the DAC.
   3. Remove any possible local controller that connected to the I2C bus of the ESS DAC.
       Also make sure I2S bus has pull-up resistors for both signals.

https://github.com/iancanada/DocumentDownload/tree/master/ESScontroller

Point #3 makes it infeasible.


----------



## BottleFred

oldearwax said:


> My bad ... the LKS display uses a parallel interface.
> 
> To use Ian Canada's controller board, this is what he said:
> Works with external ESS DAC
> ...


Okay... No good... Many thanks for your time and effort!


----------



## ESL57 (Jun 10, 2021)

BottleFred said:


> Okay... No good... Many thanks for your time and effort!


If you master microcontrollers, design your own screen from scratch, with keyboard and infrared receiver and communicate it directly to those ES9038PROs, it can be a fun job, anyway that IAN CANADA module if it ever worked, I don't think it will do 100 % of the functions correctly, also that display is ridiculously small you will need binoculars at 2m distance 
Photos in case you need to see something of the original .....


----------



## BottleFred

ESL57 said:


> If you master microcontrollers, design your own screen from scratch, with keyboard and infrared receiver and communicate it directly to those ES9038PROs, it can be a fun job, anyway that IAN CANADA module if it ever worked, I don't think it will do 100 % of the functions correctly, also that display is ridiculously small you will need binoculars at 2m distance
> Photos in case you need to see something of the original .....


Hello ESL57, Thanks for the photo's much appreciated! I master a lot, but microcontrollers... No...

Maybe I can connect an I2C mini display to this ports?
Are connected to:
- V (probably 3.3V)
- Ground
And to the microcontroller
- P3.1/TXD/T2
- P3.0/RXD/INT4/T2CLKO
Somehow seems too good to be true...


----------



## ESL57

BottleFred said:


> Hello ESL57, Thanks for the photo's much appreciated! I master a lot, but microcontrollers... No...
> 
> Maybe I can connect an I2C mini display to this ports?
> Are connected to:
> ...


I never looked closely at that STC microcontroller nor did I care much about its data sheet, those 4 pins I thought were for communication and updating the firmware, the users who understand here will tell the truth.
If you need some measure or data of the module you can ask me, I will be several days working on the power supply of my unit.


----------



## ESL57 (Jun 10, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Increase the output of the 2 right most regulators to 4.5V and see if the problem goes away
> If not increase output to 5V
> 
> -IMPORTANT-
> ...


B0bb this up here was what you recommended to me a while ago, go up to 4.5v (DAC chip core regulator 4.1v), even at 5v, I have the LT3083 in tests mounted and powered to calibrate it outside the dac, with the resistor In the Set pin of 100kohm I get 5v at the output (external power supply at 8.9v), I know you mentioned that the capacitors of the following regulators will have more voltage reserve and would work better. Is it what we should have there 5v or better I recalculate it for 4.5v? It is just for safety before you mount it on the dac.
Anyway when I make a change in the regulators or in the power supply the first time I use a Variac for safety to make a soft and progressive start from AC and measure the DC outputs in case something does not stop where it should and the smoke never appear.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> I know you mentioned that the capacitors of the following regulators will have more voltage reserve and would work better. Is it what we should have there 5v or better I recalculate it for 4.5v? It is just for safety before you mount it on the dac.


Either would be ok, 4.5V lowers the dissipation on the secondary regulator.


----------



## BottleFred

ESL57 said:


> I never looked closely at that STC microcontroller nor did I care much about its data sheet, those 4 pins I thought were for communication and updating the firmware, the users who understand here will tell the truth.
> If you need some measure or data of the module you can ask me, I will be several days working on the power supply of my unit.


Okay, I’ve decided to go without display and control (for the moment) and use the coax input, I’ve ordered the transformers (7V although 9V was specified on the bottom side of the board). The measurements lead to believe 6,5/7V is more appropriate.
I’ve read somewhere someone used a 3.15A fuse (250V), I presume it’s slow blow, can you confirm the value?


----------



## ESL57

BottleFred said:


> Okay, I’ve decided to go without display and control (for the moment) and use the coax input, I’ve ordered the transformers (7V although 9V was specified on the bottom side of the board). The measurements lead to believe 6,5/7V is more appropriate.
> I’ve read somewhere someone used a 3.15A fuse (250V), I presume it’s slow blow, can you confirm the value?


I bought my unit from a friend and I did not release it myself, I had never looked at the fuse (luckily) I am not a fan of expensive audio fuse brands. If my friend don't change it here I have a nice gold T2.5A fuse, we also have 230v around here further south.


----------



## BottleFred

ESL57 said:


> I bought my unit from a friend and I did not release it myself, I had never looked at the fuse (luckily) I am not a fan of expensive audio fuse brands. If my friend don't change it here I have a nice gold T2.5A fuse, we also have 230v around here further south.


👌 thanks! I’ve noticed it makes a difference to use different ‘high-end’ fuses. For the good or for the bad... It actually sounds different, much like the difference in powercords.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> I bought my unit from a friend and I did not release it myself, I had never looked at the fuse (luckily) I am not a fan of expensive audio fuse brands. If my friend don't change it here I have a nice gold T2.5A fuse, we also have 230v around here further south.


Stock fuse is SMD-SPT made by Schurter.
Quality construction, gold plated copper endcaps, ceramic body

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Schurter/0001270722?qs=OE9z1R4OBfMufEL9yc/ElA==


----------



## BottleFred

b0bb said:


> Stock fuse is SMD-SPT made by Schurter.
> Quality construction, gold plated copper endcaps, ceramic body
> 
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Schurter/0001270722?qs=OE9z1R4OBfMufEL9yc/ElA==


👍 thanks again b0bb!


----------



## ESL57

Small details that I needed to do, 820uf capacitor in the clock 3,3v regulator, copper in the relays of the analog supplies, ferrite in the microcontroller, and finally the LT3083, 3A regulator with its resistance of 100kohm 10ppm high stability out 4.9v aprox. Review and measure the settings, assemble and listen to what this sounds like now.


----------



## piaseczek

ESL57,
Nice. Will you also replace your line drivers to more powerful 74ALVC244s?


----------



## ESL57

piaseczek said:


> ESL57,
> Nice. Will you also replace your line drivers to more powerful 74ALVC244s?


Yes, those chips have long since been exchanged for the NXP


----------



## piaseczek

ESL57 said:


> Yes, those chips have long since been exchanged for the NXP



Did you find it an important for sound quality mod? 
I'm trying to find out what are the most important issues to improve in my Gen 2 DAC.


----------



## ESL57

piaseczek said:


> Did you find it an important for sound quality mod?
> I'm trying to find out what are the most important issues to improve in my Gen 2 DAC.


What happens that the GEN1 and GEN2 seem quite different, yesterday I saw something strange in a photo of BottleFred, at the bottom of the pcb there is in its GEN2 like a capacitor and a resistor/coil to connect the chassis to ground (it seems), this is not in GEN1 at least not in that place, are the GEN2 noisier? ... B0bb what's wrong, is this also installed in GEN1?


----------



## oldearwax

ESL57 said:


> a capacitor and a resistor/coil to connect the chassis to ground


Henry Ott:
http://www.hottconsultants.com/questions/chassis_to_circuit_ground_connection.html
I've seen capacitor and thermistor in parallel too !


----------



## ESL57

oldearwax said:


> Henry Ott:
> http://www.hottconsultants.com/questions/chassis_to_circuit_ground_connection.html
> I've seen capacitor and thermistor in parallel too !


Thanks, very clear explanation about the ground connections to the chassis, the funny thing is because this was changed from GEN1 to GEN2, in GEN1 that does not exist in that place (perhaps this in another place), making a new PCB should not be economical if there is no major cause for it.


----------



## BottleFred

ESL57 said:


> Thanks, very clear explanation about the ground connections to the chassis, the funny thing is because this was changed from GEN1 to GEN2, in GEN1 that does not exist in that place (perhaps this in another place), making a new PCB should not be economical if there is no major cause for it.


So it’s a Gen 2 I have?
I’ve found the German distributor of Musetec on Ebay, he confirmed that he could arrange an display and maybe a remote for me 😎, yesss.


----------



## ESL57

BottleFred said:


> So it’s a Gen 2 I have?
> I’ve found the German distributor of Musetec on Ebay, he confirmed that he could arrange an display and maybe a remote for me 😎, yesss.


Good news for you, what do you have in mind for the chassis, with or without it?
yes, it is a GEN2, they improved the dissipation system of the transistors and now they are under the pcb, they increased the size of the heatsinks of the ES9038PRO and linked them below to the chassis, they are the only 3 points in favor with respect to GEN1, for The rest they saved in other pieces that if they are in GEN1 of better quality.


----------



## BottleFred

ESL57 said:


> Good news for you, what do you have in mind for the chassis, with or without it?
> yes, it is a GEN2, they improved the dissipation system of the transistors and now they are under the pcb, they increased the size of the heatsinks of the ES9038PRO and linked them below to the chassis, they are the only 3 points in favor with respect to GEN1, for The rest they saved in other pieces that if they are in GEN1 of better quality.


Okay, tnx.
I’m gonna build a separate chassis for the transformers.
Linked by a multi-core or perhaps 8 separate links for power. (Right beside the board will be a Raspberry pi which will supply i2s into the i2s-E. I’ve removed the Ethernet-chassis).
Much like:
https://audio-creative.nl/projecten/de-dddac1794-nos-dac-met-berrystreamer/

I think there’s an English version somewhere


----------



## piaseczek (Jun 11, 2021)

B0bb,
in the newest version od the 004 there are 4 expensive resistors near the regulators, what they are responsible of? Is it worth to upgrade to them from the MELFs?

Photos taken by Auxinput:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-15578690


----------



## ESL57

I am listening to the results of the latest changes, in a b&w805D2, the bass control has never been so solid and controlled, this toy has a lot to offer, the sound is both sweet and relaxed when the music offers it, a pleasure for the ears. I'm sure I will make an external source sooner rather than later.
For now I'm taking a vacation, this is the last photo I'll put up for now before closing it again for a while. The effort will be worth it. Consider making the improvements proposed here, your dac will take an unknown and impressive leap.


----------



## piaseczek

ESL57,
One question please, how many LM317s have you replaced with the LT3083s?


----------



## ESL57

piaseczek said:


> ESL57,
> One question please, how many LM317s have you replaced with the LT3083s?


For now only one, that exceeded the current in mA limits if high resolution files are played, especially DSD512, if you look at the Xoverman diagram, the one that says 4.1v (Dac chip core regulator)


----------



## piaseczek

ESL57 said:


> For now only one, that exceeded the current in mA limits if high resolution files are played, especially DSD512, if you look at the Xoverman diagram, the one that says 4.1v (Dac chip core regulator)


Ok, so you replaced the second from the right.


----------



## ESL57

piaseczek said:


> Ok, so you replaced the second from the right.


Yes, correct


----------



## b0bb (Jun 11, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Thanks, very clear explanation about the ground connections to the chassis, the funny thing is because this was changed from GEN1 to GEN2, in GEN1 that does not exist in that place (perhaps this in another place), making a new PCB should not be economical if there is no major cause for it.


LKS used to do that for the 003 to join the ground planes to the chassis.

LKS did not do this for Gen1 and I think it was a good decision. (There really only needs to be 1 point in the audio chain with this ,on mine it is the amps)

The HDMI metal shield is connected to chassis ground, unfortunately this is a direct path all the way back to to the noisy USB on the PC or RaspberryPI etc
The Singxer DDCs connect chassis ground from the USB shield with the HDMI shield. Fixing this involves cutting off some parts of the Singxer PCB.
Other DDCs may also use this method.

To compound matters it looks like Gen2 Core 1.2V shares the same supply with the I2S receiver, this is looks like a direct path right into the DAC core
PC USB ground shield->DDC USB input ground shield->DDC HDMI ground shield ->I2S receiver HDMI Chassis Ground->004 Chassis RC coupling->1.2V DAC core ground


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> in the newest version od the 004 there are 4 expensive resistors near the regulators, what they are responsible of? Is it worth to upgrade to them from the MELFs?
> 
> Photos taken by Auxinput:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-15578690


Vcom, not worth upgrading unless you go for the Vishay Metal Foil SMD resistors, those will set you back 15-30USD each.
I think you would be better off putting the money into the getting a proper Wet Tantalum for Vcom bypass.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Either would be ok, 4.5V lowers the dissipation on the secondary regulator.


That's why in Gen 2 they even went to 4,1V


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Vcom, not worth upgrading unless you go for the Vishay Metal Foil SMD resistors, those will set you back 15-30USD each.
> I think you would be better off putting the money into the getting a proper Wet Tantalum for Vcom bypass.



Yes, I know, it's the first thing on my "to do" list.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> The other thing to do is stop RF noise at the source.
> It is leaking thru the relay line drivers into the rest of the DAC.
> 
> 1) Turn off VFD with remote control  if not already done
> ...



B0bb,
I use the Amanero board, should I also stick some ferrite sheet to it?


----------



## oldearwax

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> in the newest version od the 004 there are 4 expensive resistors near the regulators, what they are responsible of? Is it worth to upgrade to them from the MELFs?
> 
> Photos taken by Auxinput:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-15578690


4703 and 2703 translate to 47K and 27K, the Vcom capacitor (before the mod) is probably less than 10uF !


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> I use the Amanero board, should I also stick some ferrite sheet to it?


Put it on top of the Atmel and the CPLD.
Ferrite is conductive be sure you do not short anything out by bridging the pins of the chips and SMD caps.

Do not put it on the Crysteks.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 12, 2021)

oldearwax said:


> 4703 and 2703 translate to 47K and 27K, the Vcom capacitor (before the mod) is probably less than 10uF !


That is a Gen3 board, I would not use it as an example of good practice.

-Accelerated the cost cutting trend begun in Gen1.5x onward.

Transformers have been reduced in size,  core is much shorter and therefore smaller.
Use of cheap Panasonic OSCon (purple stripe) vs more expensive Nichicon FPCap (red stripe) for  polymers.
USB input is no longer galvanically isolated.
Severe cutbacks in the number of voltage regulators in the Amanero board, about half compared to the previous board.
Private label XOs for the Amanero instead of the Crysteks.
Increased use of ceramics to replace the high quality polymer FP caps, on 005 LKS went back to using high quality polymer caps.
Cutbacks in the I2S termination, the empty pads where components once was is still present.
Cutbacks on line driver termination, these help control noise, the empty unpopulated pads are visible.
Use of cheap diode instead of transistor for current mirror in discrete opamp,
Original transistor footprint is clearly visible on the PCB.
The low noise Toshiba transistor is 20X the cost of the diode.
There is price to be paid in noise and linearity, that is why a transistor and not a diode is used in the very best designs.
LKS started down this road and then fell off the path to save money.


004 is no longer the flagship product, any "improvements" LKS makes to the 004 should be viewed in that light to prevent it competing with the new flagship product costing more than 2X as much.


----------



## b0bb

If I were in Jinbo's shoes, 004 owners pestering LKS for details on changes and improvements to the 005 and then trying to copy that in the 004 in a public forum must be an aggravating experience.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> If I were in Jinbo's shoes, 004 owners pestering LKS for details on changes and improvements to the 005 and then trying to copy that in the 004 in a public forum must be an aggravating experience.


MUSETEC, LKS, Jinbo, must be grateful that for years this thread has been the main focus of attention to their star product in recent years before 005 appeared, surely many bought LKS004 because of how well everyone said here that sounds and offer a very competitive quality / price product, this thread was excellent publicity for them, in addition to being a repairable product in case of breakdowns, not an expiration product scheduled to be thrown away in case of breakdown, everything this has been seen here, they got it right, for example I put a purchase notice for a friend in case someone sold a unit ..... how many told me something ..... absolutely no one, its value has stabilized and It does not go down like other dac, if you look at they are sold used at € 1100 and € 1200, it is still in fashion after 5 years. But the factories have to keep running and that the business does not stop, 005 appeared with more esoteric components and more exclusive and exotic power supply technologies, and effectively it is necessary to differentiate more current 004 and 005 so that they do not become mutual competition between they. Thank you Jinbo, you gave us a lot for little.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 12, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> MUSETEC, LKS, Jinbo, must be grateful that for years this thread has been the main focus of attention to their star product in recent years before 005 appeared, surely many bought LKS004 because of how well everyone said here that sounds and offer a very competitive quality / price product, this thread was excellent publicity for them, in addition to being a repairable product in case of breakdowns, not an expiration product scheduled to be thrown away in case of breakdown, everything this has been seen here, they got it right, for example I put a purchase notice for a friend in case someone sold a unit ..... how many told me something ..... absolutely no one, its value has stabilized and It does not go down like other dac, if you look at they are sold used at € 1100 and € 1200, it is still in fashion after 5 years. But the factories have to keep running and that the business does not stop, 005 appeared with more esoteric components and more exclusive and exotic power supply technologies, and effectively it is necessary to differentiate more current 004 and 005 so that they do not become mutual competition between they. Thank you Jinbo, you gave us a lot for little.


LKS has a problem similar to Windows7 with the 004, it set the high bar for performance.
Microsoft's approach was to make Windows10 almost free, LKS cannot afford to do that.
We should respect the differentiation LKS put into their new flagship.

There is still room to keep improving the 004 without using information directly sourced from the 005.
Aggravating LKS by competing with their current flagship by using LKS own 005 technology leads to bad places like this thread being shut down.


----------



## ESL57 (Jun 13, 2021)

b0bb said:


> LKS has a problem similar to Windows7 with the 004, it set the high bar for performance.
> Microsoft's approach was to make Windows10 almost free, LKS cannot afford to do that.
> We should respect the differentiation LKS put into their new flagship.
> 
> ...


If you realize, somehow I just wanted to praise and thank LKS for giving us a product with quality components at a reasonable price, other brands invest more in publicity and a heavy, beautiful designer furniture than in important components for the sound, I think that MUSETEC 005 must be another great product like 004, if you see what it has inside you are sure that you are paying just for the quality you receive and at first glance you see a great and new engineering work, I repeat it is a brand in which I will look always to see what new products it brings to the market because possibly I would buy something more of them if I can afford it economically, perhaps when a new DDC, or dac with a new chip higher than es9038PRO appears, which should not take long.
I only say what I really think, nothing binds me. Thanks LKS
I agree that the objective here should never be to plagiarize a design or an own technology, always with your own ideas, your B0bb for example you looked for the components and points to improve with better specifications and explaining to us the reason for the changes, something that we are in debt with you, Xoverman and some more.


----------



## piaseczek

oldearwax said:


> 4703 and 2703 translate to 47K and 27K, the Vcom capacitor (before the mod) is probably less than 10uF !


The Vcom capacitor in the newest version of the 004 looks like 0.1 -1uF MKP. 
Similar approach can be seen in the 005.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> The Vcom capacitor in the newest version of the 004 looks like 0.1 -1uF MKP.
> Similar approach can be seen in the 005.


This is not the first time this topic has been brought up.
It started as a discussion on copying what LKS did for the 005.

Most of the work done on the 004 up until now is original and we own the 004.

I think this should be moved to its own separate topic/thread for conversations about copying the work LKS did for 005 which you may not own.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> If you realize, somehow I just wanted to praise and thank LKS for giving us a product with quality components at a reasonable price, other brands invest more in publicity and a heavy, beautiful designer furniture than in important components for the sound, I think that MUSETEC 005 must be another great product like 004, if you see what it has inside you are sure that you are paying just for the quality you receive and at first glance you see a great and new engineering work, I repeat it is a brand in which I will look always to see what new products it brings to the market because possibly I would buy something more of them if I can afford it economically, perhaps when a new DDC, or dac with a new chip higher than es9038PRO appears, which should not take long.
> I only say what I really think, nothing binds me. Thanks LKS
> I agree that the objective here should never be to plagiarize a design or an own technology, always with your own ideas, your B0bb for example you looked for the components and points to improve with better specifications and explaining to us the reason for the changes, something that we are in debt with you, Xoverman and some more.


Wonderful words, and I believe they come from the Hart.
I feel the same way. The LKS 004 is a wonderful DAC. Jinbo has created a product that was state of the art in it's time and for the price. 
And still he left us room spacealy and technically to further improv his design over time. Audio nerds found together and learned from each other. What a great product. Thank you Jinbo. 
Maybe we can convince Jinbo too support this forum with some more technical information like for example a schematic of the 004.
I think that would be a win win situation for both sides.


----------



## ESL57

By the way yesterday a friend called me to compare his dac, according to him it is a wonder for the price it is an SMSL SU9 with an ES9038PRO, I wanted to see for myself where my 004 was with respect to the new creations of content price, try to / b with the 2 dac in different inputs of a preamp, I did not think that the difference was so abysmal, the micro details, the weight of the music, the realism of the voices, the very real and present bass, everything was much more evident in my 004, until you compare you do not know for good or bad where you are. LKS004 can be measured from you to you with large and expensive dac, another story is if you like the R2R system, but in models with SABRE it is a tough rival.


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## b0bb (Jun 13, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> By the way yesterday a friend called me to compare his dac, according to him it is a wonder for the price it is an SMSL SU9 with an ES9038PRO, I wanted to see for myself where my 004 was with respect to the new creations of content price, try to / b with the 2 dac in different inputs of a preamp, I did not think that the difference was so abysmal, the micro details, the weight of the music, the realism of the voices, the very real and present bass, everything was much more evident in my 004, until you compare you do not know for good or bad where you are. LKS004 can be measured from you to you with large and expensive dac, another story is if you like the R2R system, but in models with SABRE it is a tough rival.


This is one of the subjective comparison targets I use when evaluating the 004 mods, the silver box.
Most of the time gathering dust...


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## ESL57

b0bb said:


> This is one of the subjective comparison targets I use when evaluating the 004 mods, the silver box.
> Most of the time gathering dust...


Talking about that Dac in your photo seems somewhat taboo, it seems that it has its loyal followers and at the same time the opposite, the eternal war without a winner and without an end of the objective against the subjective, if you use it as a sound reference I suppose you will like it. I have it clear, where a device has to sound good is in your own home and who has to like its sound is the buyer himself, the rest is of little use IMO. The comparisons are good, sometimes you think that there is nothing better until a modified LKS004 walks through the door and takes the colors out of a dac with a SINAD of 120 and the limit of what measuring machines can reach in the Today and you realize how difficult it is to buy and get it right the first time on the subject of audio.


----------



## oldearwax

piaseczek said:


> The Vcom capacitor in the newest version of the 004 looks like 0.1 -1uF MKP.
> Similar approach can be seen in the 005.


Yes, thank you for pointing out in Aug 2020 too !
It also has been discussed in posts back in

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...-dac-van-dammes-double-impact.840938/page-226

Jinbao illustrates the mod for LKS004,
and provides the resistor values to accompany 0.1uF Vcom capacitor.
Consider this as a gift, relax  and enjoy the music.

AuxInput's LKS004 new Resistor/Capacitor combination is a revelation.
a step in a different direction.


My auditory system didn't like large capacitor in the Vcom position,
Currently, my LKS004 has the original 10uF capacitor.


----------



## piaseczek

oldearwax said:


> Yes, thank you for pointing out in Aug 2020 too !


Happy that I could help.


----------



## piaseczek

oldearwax said:


> AuxInput's LKS004 new Resistor/Capacitor combination is a revelation.
> a step in a different direction.


Do you mean 27k and 47k with 0.1uF? or with 10uF?


----------



## piaseczek

In my Gen2 there are 4.7k and 8.2k near the Vcom capacitor.


----------



## ESL57

oldearwax said:


> Yes, thank you for pointing out in Aug 2020 too !
> It also has been discussed in posts back in
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...-dac-van-dammes-double-impact.840938/page-226
> ...


What didn't you like about a bigger capacitor there compared to the original 10uf?
B0bb do you think that a simple white noise file can be enough to see what happens in the changes of the Vcom zone?


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## b0bb (Jun 15, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> What didn't you like about a bigger capacitor there compared to the original 10uf?
> B0bb do you think that a simple white noise file can be enough to see what happens in the changes of the Vcom zone?


No need for a noise file just a very sensitive voltmeter.
At high resistance values, thermal noise becomes dominant given how hot the 004 runs.
Unlike other forms of noise, thermal noise is not reduced by the capacitor.

This is the reason ESS kept the output impedance low at 25ohm.
Thermal noise is 0.1uV , -140dBv

LKS design choices  here is not great.

8.2k Gen2 --> 1.82uV, -118 dBv
47k Gen3 --> 4.36uV, -107dBv
500k "Jinbo mod" --> 14.2uV, -96.9 dBv

On the last item, 8x more noise, the noise floor rises by 8x, fine way to turn the Gen2 004 into a cheap CDPlayer.
The "Jinbo mod" is so destructive to the noise floor that I thought @oldearwax made the whole thing up.

If LKS did indeed provide this mod, they have not revealed the extra effort to deal with this side effect.
I think one would have to pay LKS the money for that extra effort by buying the 005 .

4V output is 12dBv, adjust by that amount to get SNR

Below is an example of the calculation
https://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Thermal-Noise-Calculator.phtml


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## b0bb (Jun 15, 2021)

Assuming a totally noiseless I/V:

Gen2 004 has SNR of 130dB
Gen3 004 has SNR of 119dB
Gustard X26Pro measured SINAD (SNR + Distortion) at 127dB.

It is quite clear the high value Vcom resistors LKS uses has a negative effect.
004's estimated SINAD numbers is about 10-15dB below the idealized SNR.

Gen2 estd. SINAD: 115dB 
Gen3 estd. SINAD: 104dB.

Comes as no surprise why the 004 has never been submitted for independent review


----------



## oldearwax

ESL57 said:  What didn't you like about a bigger capacitor there compared to the original 10uf?

Like you said, with the wet tantalum ... slam, weighty, lots of bass.
Some music like female vocal was ok, but it failed my piano test.
My minority opinion was posted earlier in #3,366.

I am glad wet tantalum cap mod works out for you.

My setup: Speaker: 93db Tannoy. No preamp, No subwoofer. Amps: EML45B power tubes.


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## ESL57

oldearwax said:


> ESL57 said:  What didn't you like about a bigger capacitor there compared to the original 10uf?
> 
> Like you said, with the wet tantalum ... slam, weighty, lots of bass.
> Some music like female vocal was ok, but it failed my piano test.
> ...


That is why I was asking for some relatively easy method to analyze the frequency response of our dac, modify Vcom in some way in addition to modifying the level of the noise floor, the frequencies must be altered in some way, it is to not only hear the changes but also measure and see what happens with the changes, I have used methods to measure the frequency response at some time but they were for acoustics, in speakers and with pink noise, I remember that this was not the right thing for amplifiers and other electronic audio where for example a square wave it is very significant to see of the behavior of an amplifier especially to tubes.
I don't know if what I want to do doesn't make sense in a dac, you will tell me.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Assuming a totally noiseless I/V:
> 
> Gen2 004 has SNR of 130dB
> Gen3 004 has SNR of 119dB
> ...


Measurements and reviews by independent pages can sometimes confuse more than help the user, was there any interest in highlighting the good and not bringing out something bad? Was the manufacturer behind the test and paying for advertising? always the same. the same story you have to believe and have faith in who makes them, even 2 people with Apx555 as configured and the chosen method the results can be totally different, I am not an expert, but if you look on the internet it is what you can see.
Too bad no one did a serious and complete test of our beloved 004.
By the way, my friend's SU9 unit is on its way to China for firmware repair, in the first "ASR" test they put it as almost perfect for the price and later a serious distortion problem was found only solvable from the factory, they seem to have agreed to bear all the expenses, a nice gesture on their part.


----------



## Xoverman

oldearwax said:


> ESL57 said:  What didn't you like about a bigger capacitor there compared to the original 10uf?
> 
> Like you said, with the wet tantalum ... slam, weighty, lots of bass.
> Some music like female vocal was ok, but it failed my piano test.
> ...


Hi oderwax, thats funny i had the same fenomeno. I think thats some kind of jitter thats being compensated by the smaller capacitor.
For me it went away when I exchanged the primary clock regulator against the LT3045.


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Hi oderwax, thats funny i had the same fenomeno. I think thats some kind of jitter thats being compensated by the smaller capacitor.
> For me it went away when I exchanged the primary clock regulator against the LT3045.


Those of us who have GEN1 and who are currently talking and commenting on changes are practically 2 users, the rest are mostly GEN2, GEN1 and GEN2 are very similar but sonically not so much, it is what I think, anyway we always missed a more real bass and present, on the other hand I recognize that DSD is currently wonderful and consistent in my unit, against PCM if it accuses that bass too active, maybe 820uf is too much, but in DSD it is perfect, I would never mind trying a lower value again, of In fact I already have the values here for it, but for now just enjoying it.


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## oldearwax (Jun 16, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Hi oderwax, thats funny i had the same fenomeno. I think thats some kind of jitter thats being compensated by the smaller capacitor.
> For me it went away when I exchanged the primary clock regulator against the LT3045.


Hi, that is funny. I think you may be right about the jitter.

I have a theory, just a theory from circuit perspective regarding the influence of this Vcom capacitor, see diagram below.





The ideal perfect virtual ground output Vo of a transimpedance I/V amplifier is on the left. Frequency independent !
The imperfect transimpedance I/V amplifier Vo due to imperfect virtual ground is on the right. Frequency dependent !
The capacitor C is our famous Vcom capacitor.
R is the  equivalent  Vcom resistors. The product Iref*R=Vref is the ideal Vcom reference voltage, roughly 1.2V in my DAC.
The regulators (3.3v) has an influence on the quality of Iref (Vref).

IF my analysis is correct, Vo is  modulated by 1/(1+s RC) where s is a frequency variable. Vo now has a "pole" !!
The larger C  is or the higher the frequency "s" is ... have an ill effect on the output Vo.
The product RC also has an influence on the stability of the transimpedance amplifier.

This is just a theory. I did the detailed analysis, be happy to post it if there is interest.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 16, 2021)

oldearwax said:


> Hi, that is funny. I think you may be right about the jitter.
> 
> I have a theory, just a theory from circuit perspective regarding the influence of this Vcom capacitor, see diagram below.
> 
> ...


If you look at the equation posted
Vo =-IRf + Vref/(1+sRC)

The second part of the equation (Vref/(1+sRC)) represents the error  in the I/V conversion.

If you make RC a big value, the  contribution of the error part is reduced.

The value of R has to be close to the output impedance of the DAC (25ohm), that leaves C as the variable to change.
Thermal noise also limits how high the value of R can go. Thermal noise comes from R not C.

That is why you want a large value for C (within reason) to keep the conversion error low.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> Measurements and reviews by independent pages can sometimes confuse more than help the user, was there any interest in highlighting the good and not bringing out something bad? Was the manufacturer behind the test and paying for advertising? always the same. the same story you have to believe and have faith in who makes them, even 2 people with Apx555 as configured and the chosen method the results can be totally different, I am not an expert, but if you look on the internet it is what you can see.
> Too bad no one did a serious and complete test of our beloved 004.
> By the way, my friend's SU9 unit is on its way to China for firmware repair, in the first "ASR" test they put it as almost perfect for the price and later a serious distortion problem was found only solvable from the factory, they seem to have agreed to bear all the expenses, a nice gesture on their part.


One of the issues is manufacturers give ASR a "golden" sample, meaning a hand-tuned sample carefully checked for faults.

Singxer was not the only one, Topping did this too with the review samples having high-end XOs compared to standard product.

ASR's methodology is sound and I like their no-hype, no-bs approach to testing the products.


----------



## oldearwax

b0bb said:


> If you look at the equation posted
> Vo =-IRf + Vref/(1+sRC)
> 
> The second part of the equation (Vref/(1+sRC)) represents the error  in the I/V conversion.
> ...


Connect Vcom to an ideal reference voltage Vref and you have a perfect output

Vo = -I*Rf + Vref

Our imperfect implementation (Resistor divider and C decoupling) of Vref results

Vo = -I*Rf + Vref/(1+sRC)

This common output voltage Vref=Vcom is needed further downstream.
Make RC big, 
Vo = -I*Rf + 0
Vref disappears, but it is needed downstream 😟

Figure 1 of ESS datasheet illustrates 
VCM (which is Vcom) is used by the difference amplifier U2.
A simple analysis finds VCM shows up at the output labelled as "DAC1".


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## b0bb (Jun 18, 2021)

oldearwax said:


> Connect Vcom to an ideal reference voltage Vref and you have a perfect output
> 
> Vo = -I*Rf + Vref
> 
> ...


Do not want Vref /Vcom present at input of I/V except at DC.
The purpose of the cap is to make sure it comes to close this ideal.

s = 2π x frequency x* j*
Vo = -I*Rf + Vref/(|1+ _*j*_(2πfRC)|)
(*j *is the complex or imaginary part of the impedance)

The equation assumes steady state conditions so it does not cover actual dynamic changing conditions on the DAC.
It is however, sufficient to explain the role of the Vcom cap.

At v.high frequencies magnitude of (1+ sRC) is large  --> Vo  ≈ -I *Rf
At v.low frequencies (1 + sRC) is small --> Vo  ≈ -I *Rf + Vref

The gain is not linear, fraction of Vref is dependent on frequency.
Increasing the gain of an amp sacrifices linearity, distortion increases.
We want to keep the gain as flat as possible for I/V conversion across its operating bandwidth.


oldearwax said:


> Figure 1 of ESS datasheet illustrates
> VCM (which is Vcom) is used by the difference amplifier U2.
> A simple analysis finds VCM shows up at the output labelled as "DAC1".



On an ideal perfectly balanced differential amp, DAC1 DC voltage is zero, a differential amp is supposed to amplify the differences at its inputs while ignoring the voltage common to both inputs.

Vref DC offsets will cancel as U2 takes the difference of voltages of U1 and U3
V1 = -I1*Rf + Vref
V3 = -I3*Rf + Vref

DAC1 output is V2 = V1-V3 = (-I1*Rf + Vref) - (-I3*Rf + Vref)  = -(I1-I3)*Rf

At AC we keep the the I/V conversion as linear as possible, meaning eliminate the frequency dependent gain at the I/V as much as possible.

(Failure to properly eliminate the AC common mode voltage is one of the reasons some DACs have the IMD hump, Vcom eats up the AC gain margin leading to increased distortion)


----------



## piaseczek

Low leakage electrolytic:
https://www.vishay.com/capacitors/list/product-28313/

Leakage current is only 4.2uA for 330uF @ 6.3V. 
The alternative if anyone don't like the sound of the wet tantalum.


----------



## ESL57

piaseczek said:


> Low leakage electrolytic:
> https://www.vishay.com/capacitors/list/product-28313/
> 
> Leakage current is only 4.2uA for 330uF @ 6.3V.
> The alternative if anyone don't like the sound of the wet tantalum.


Surprisingly inexpensive capacitor, but it seems that only the 47uf version is in stock from the usual suppliers.


----------



## piaseczek

Some measurements of the leakage current:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/film-and-ceramic-capacitor-leakage-current/

Interesting part:
"I checked a new Nichicon 63V 100u *1000u* Low Leakage Electrolytic cap,* UKL1J102KHD*. After 1 day at 7.15V it had an steady state leakage of 10na. Then I did a day at 63V to form the dielectric. After I discharged and reapplied voltage the 7.15V leakage was 1.4na."

Summing up there is hope to use the best according to B0bb value - 2200uF:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-16221233


----------



## ESL57

piaseczek said:


> Some measurements of the leakage current:
> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/film-and-ceramic-capacitor-leakage-current/
> 
> Interesting part:
> ...


If an interesting way to see how a capacitor is in shape, especially if it has been stored for a long time like the NOS WET.
If money is not important to try Teflon would be another option to WET, it is not easy to get high capacitance Teflon capacitors and they cost a fortune.
https://solen.ca/products/capacitor...-fep-capacitors-3q10u-10uf-1300v-teflon-film/


----------



## piaseczek

ESL57 said:


> If an interesting way to see how a capacitor is in shape, especially if it has been stored for a long time like the NOS WET.
> If money is not important to try Teflon would be another option to WET, it is not easy to get high capacitance Teflon capacitors and they cost a fortune.
> https://solen.ca/products/capacitor...-fep-capacitors-3q10u-10uf-1300v-teflon-film/



It's only 10uF


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## b0bb (Jun 18, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> Summing up there is hope to use the best according to B0bb value - 2200uF:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-16221233


That is for Gen1/Gen2 only.

Gen3 resistor is 5X  larger and the DC level on the individual XLR pins will take a very long time to settle, about 5X the RC value
5 x 2200uF x 47k  = 517s or about 8.6 mins.

I used 150uF and 4.7k on my board, 3.5s to stabilize.

Some downstream components like power amps  may not react too well to prolonged periods where DC is present on the XLR input


----------



## ESL57

piaseczek said:


> It's only 10uF


Yes, only 10uf the same as the original value, it is not easy to find higher values and if there are, they must be huge in size and absurdly expensive, Teflon seems excellent for its characteristics and quality, but it is not a real option, just an anecdote.


----------



## piaseczek

ESL57 said:


> Yes, only 10uf the same as the original value, it is not easy to find higher values and if there are, they must be huge in size and absurdly expensive, Teflon seems excellent for its characteristics and quality, but it is not a real option, just an anecdote.


I don't know what is the raster of the original Vcom capacitor but it could be an interesting option if we stick to similar values:
https://pl.mouser.com/Rubycon/Passi...371?P=1yzuta6Z1y8f3gnZ1z0wrkrZ1z0wrjjZ1z0wrki


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> That is for Gen1/Gen2 only.


Yes, of course.


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## b0bb (Jun 18, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> I don't know what is the raster of the original Vcom capacitor but it could be an interesting option if we stick to similar values:
> https://pl.mouser.com/Rubycon/Passi...371?P=1yzuta6Z1y8f3gnZ1z0wrkrZ1z0wrjjZ1z0wrki


The acrylic film is  a worse performing dielectric material compared to the stock mylar/PET cap, no point in making the direct substitution.

It is however is better than the wet tantalum, you will need a stack of 7x 22uF to replace the 150uF, about 80-90USD for the stack.
More expensive than the wet tantalum but get your money's worth, lower leakage, better dissipation factor etc


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> The acrylic film is a worse performing dielectric material compared to the stock mylar/PET cap, no point in making the direct substitution.


I thought that the 10uF Vcom originally placed in the Gen 1 & 2 was high voltage electrolytic capacitor?


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## b0bb (Jun 18, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> I thought that the 10uF Vcom originally placed in the Gen 1 & 2 was high voltage electrolytic capacitor?


Only on Gen 2 and Gen 1.5
Gen1 used a Panasonic FM. I replaced this with the 10uF WIMA, completely forgot about the original electrolytic until you brought it up.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Only on Gen 2 and Gen 1.5
> Gen1 used a Panasonic FM. I replaced this with the 10uF WIMA, completely forgot about the original electrolytic until you brought it up.


The Withigir GEN1 unit seems to be 33uf, B0bb GEN1 and GEN1.5 they did not share the same firmware version, right? Which version is the one you currently have? Do you think there are detectable improvements between these versions 16-11, 17-04 and 18-08?


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> The Withigir GEN1 unit seems to be 33uf, B0bb GEN1 and GEN1.5 they did not share the same firmware version, right? Which version is the one you currently have? Do you think there are detectable improvements between these versions 16-11, 17-04 and 18-08?


16-11.
There are minor logic differences between generations so there will be a difference in the GPIO programming on the microcontroller.
Won't really know if there are any sonic differences unless we can probe the I2C register writes to the 9038s, would need a protocol analyzer like a bus pirate for that and tap cuts into the I2C lines.

The 33uF is a Nichicon MUSES, mine was a Panasonic FM, more silver than gold, there is a FM just below the 33uF.
004 is LKS grand science experiment with us as the test subjects.


----------



## oldearwax (Jun 18, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Do not want Vref /Vcom present at input of I/V except at DC.
> The purpose of the cap is to make sure it comes to close this ideal.
> 
> s = 2π x frequency x* j*
> ...


First, these are op amps, so DC current or/and voltage are fine. Don't worry.

Second, ESS DAC
  each pin of complementary current output (D1 and D1b in Figure 1 of datasheet) has a current offset, that is a bias current.

 The VCM (Vcom) bias voltage that is common to both I/V transimpedance amplifiers
 (U1, U3 Figure 1 ESS datasheet) is used to cancel out these current offsets.
  This is the job of VCM (Vcom) !!!
 That is why the Vcom capacitor has such a profound influence on the DAC's sound.
  That is why this Vcom voltage reference must be frequency independent.

A large Vcom capacitor causes these common bias currents to trickle downstream.
I have worked out the details, be happy to post if interested.


 Now the numbers, from the datasheet:
 At idle, ESS DAC has an "current mode offset" of ~9mA per pin. ~18mA total.
 Multiply this idle current with Rf=68.1 Ohm I get 1.24V, which is in the ballpark
 of VCM (Vcom) that I measured. With Rf=61.9 Ohm I get 1.13V which is a bit off.
 So there might be something details that I am not aware of.


Third, resistor R6 is connected to VCM.
  By superposition priniciple,
  it is easy to see a  VCM term emerges from DAC1,
  given any ideal/perfect difference amp.
  Why is VCM there ?  My guess is: the complementary outputs D1, D1b may not be
  perfectly balanced.  VCM is connected to R6 just in case ???

This is as far as I want to go in this Vcom study, really enjoy the discussions. Next study is jitter....


----------



## b0bb (Jun 19, 2021)

oldearwax said:


> First, these are op amps, so DC current or/and voltage are fine. Don't worry.
> 
> Second, ESS DAC
> each pin of complementary current output (D1 and D1b in Figure 1 of datasheet) has a current offset, that is a bias current.
> ...


Only if the capacitor leakage current is high, that was the whole reason to use the Wet Tantalum,  extremely low leakage.
You can do better, if you are prepared to use the more expensive stacked acrylic caps.


oldearwax said:


> Now the numbers, from the datasheet:
> At idle, ESS DAC has an "current mode offset" of ~9mA per pin. ~18mA total.
> Multiply this idle current with Rf=68.1 Ohm I get 1.24V, which is in the ballpark
> of VCM (Vcom) that I measured. With Rf=61.9 Ohm I get 1.13V which is a bit off.
> So there might be something details that I am not aware of.


That is correct


oldearwax said:


> Third, resistor R6 is connected to VCM.
> By superposition priniciple,
> it is easy to see a  VCM term emerges from DAC1,
> given any ideal/perfect difference amp.
> ...



You are claiming there is 1.2V DC at the RCA output.
This does not make sense.

A DC output voltage of 1.2V may be sufficient to trigger DC protection of downstream components.

You should put your analysis aside and measure your DAC.
Below are the numbers on mine. Voltages measured at idle.

With both XLR+ and XLR- at zero volts there is no common mode component.




Voltage at RCA output and "R3"




Applying the measured voltages to the ESS reference circuit, DAC1 is output is measured as 0V DC
There is no "R3" in the 004 implementation, added as a reference to the points in the reference schematic.
There is no "VCM" at the output on the 004 only shown to correlate to reference circuit.


----------



## ESL57 (Jun 19, 2021)

Topping seems to have done something different than what I recommend ESS to put the internal dacs in parallel, and it is an independent i / v conversion by each internal channel with multiple op-amp chips and do the parallel later, I don't know if this was done by others previously or is a novelty. Your data is spectacular in tests. What do you think B0bb of this method? even not being discrete op-amps.
Topping D90se
https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/...r-usb-iis-cpld-ultra-low-noise-preamp-decoder
Make 16 i / v converters for a dual mono version possibly nobody implements it or if? We will see


----------



## piaseczek (Jun 19, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Topping seems to have done something different than what I recommend ESS to put the internal dacs in parallel, and it is an independent i / v conversion by each internal channel with multiple op-amp chips and do the parallel later, I don't know if this was done by others previously or is a novelty. Your data is spectacular in tests. What do you think B0bb of this method? even not being discrete op-amps.
> Topping D90se
> https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/...r-usb-iis-cpld-ultra-low-noise-preamp-decoder
> Make 16 i / v converters for a dual mono version possibly nobody implements it or if? We will see


I think that similar approach is used in the accuphase's DACs.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> The 33uF is a Nichicon MUSES, mine was a Panasonic FM, more silver than gold, there is a FM just below the 33uF.
> 004 is LKS grand science experiment with us as the test subjects.


Exactly and the result of the 004 experiment is the 005.
High resolution photos of the 005 board would explain a lot. I wonder if the iso7640 and the powerful line drivers were used.


----------



## piaseczek

It's worth mentioning that in the 005 the FPCAPs bypassed by MKPs are everywhere, even the processor got one.
Values before the regulators are 270uF, 100uF after the regulators. Near the line driver I've noticed also only 100uF.

Additionally there are many inductors as a part of power supplies.


----------



## MartinWT

b0bb said:


> ASR's methodology is sound and I like their no-hype, no-bs approach to testing the products.



Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you b0bb. Time and again ASR have demonstrated that they barely, if at all, actually listen to the review products. The golden example is the Uptone EtherREGEN reclocker. ASR found it to have zero effect. You have to be thoroughly cloth-eared not to hear the benefits of reclocking, reducing jitter and phase noise, by using an ER ahead of the LKS or any other DAC. Since that review, I have no time for them.


----------



## b0bb

MartinWT said:


> Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you b0bb. Time and again ASR have demonstrated that they barely, if at all, actually listen to the review products. The golden example is the Uptone EtherREGEN reclocker. ASR found it to have zero effect. You have to be thoroughly cloth-eared not to hear the benefits of reclocking, reducing jitter and phase noise, by using an ER ahead of the LKS or any other DAC. Since that review, I have no time for them.


I like the objective data like SINAD, SNR, noise floor and the product comparison tables of these parameters.

Plenty of other places to go for subjective impressions.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> It's worth mentioning that in the 005 the FPCAPs bypassed by MKPs are everywhere, even the processor got one.
> Values before the regulators are 270uF, 100uF after the regulators. Near the line driver I've noticed also only 100uF.
> 
> Additionally there are many inductors as a part of power supplies.


LKS also used inductors in the power supplies of the 004 though not as many.
These are small SMD inductors that can overload too easily.

If the current demand increases too suddenly it can saturate the cores in these inductors.
Noise filtering is lost when that happens.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 19, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Topping seems to have done something different than what I recommend ESS to put the internal dacs in parallel, and it is an independent i / v conversion by each internal channel with multiple op-amp chips and do the parallel later, I don't know if this was done by others previously or is a novelty. Your data is spectacular in tests. What do you think B0bb of this method? even not being discrete op-amps.
> Topping D90se
> https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/...r-usb-iis-cpld-ultra-low-noise-preamp-decoder
> Make 16 i / v converters for a dual mono version possibly nobody implements it or if? We will see


This technique allows the designer to use off the shelf parts with limited current handling capability.
Topping did nothing special, all they did was combine the analog outputs of the several low powered chip opamp I/Vs.
Gustard did similar on the X26 and X26Pro.

9038Pro has a built in ADC for automatic gain calibration of multiple I/V channels just for this use case. 004 does not use the ADC.

The big turn off for me is the use of ceramics in the audio path, reminds me of the horrible little brown circular disc caps on old audio equipment.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> LKS also used inductors in the power supplies of the 004 though not as many.
> These are small SMD inductors that can overload too easily.
> 
> If the current demand increases too suddenly it can saturate the cores in these inductors.
> Noise filtering is lost when that happens.



Maybe these small inductors are a reason why Xoverman experienced sound problems with the 820uF FPCAP before the clock's regulator?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Maybe these small inductors are a reason why Xoverman experienced sound problems with the 820uF FPCAP before the clock's regulator?


That might explain why adding a current limiting resistor  resolved some of the issues.

LKS used the large 470uF Polymers in Gen1, they would have to adjust the inductor current carrying capacity for this.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> That might explain why adding a current limiting resistor  resolved some of the issues.
> 
> LKS used the large 470uF Polymers in Gen1, they would have to adjust the inductor current carrying capacity for this.


Even in the Gen 1 there is only 47uF before and after the crystek's regulator. Why such a small values were chosen?


----------



## piaseczek (Jun 20, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Add resistors, diodes and caps



B0bb,
What is the purpose of the wima cap below the LT1763/LT1764?
I dont see any filter/set capacitor in the LT1763/LT1764's pdf.

Maybe it's the bypass for the big cap...


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Caps values left to right 10,000uF 35V x2, 22,000uF 25V x1, 47,000uF 25V x1


B0bb,
Is the 680uF original output capacitor for the LT1763 ok and you won't replace it?


----------



## Xoverman

oldearwax said:


> First, these are op amps, so DC current or/and voltage are fine. Don't worry.
> 
> Second, ESS DAC
> each pin of complementary current output (D1 and D1b in Figure 1 of datasheet) has a current offset, that is a bias current.
> ...


Very nice work!!!


----------



## piaseczek

Another alternative to the wet tantalum, relatively small sized 100uF MKT:
https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/EPCOS-TDK/B32524R0107K000?qs=rXlmONB1aiHOwKOLC/J4bA==


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Even in the Gen 1 there is only 47uF before and after the crystek's regulator. Why such a small values were chosen?


The stock CCHD-575 XO current consumption is low between 15-25mA, 47uF is adequate.
CCHD-950x consumes about the same amount of current, this makes it a straightforward swap.

Higher performance XOs like the SIT-5357 (65mA) and the OCXOs (150mA -1000mA) require more current, the filter capacitance has to be increased to keep the supply ripple and hence noise at the same level.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> What is the purpose of the wima cap below the LT1763/LT1764?
> I dont see any filter/set capacitor in the LT1763/LT1764's pdf.
> 
> Maybe it's the bypass for the big cap...


Bypass for the input and output caps and voltage setting resistors.

150nF 100V Polypropylene (MKP)


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> Is the 680uF original output capacitor for the LT1763 ok and you won't replace it?


Optional, it is for the XO.

Keep the stock unless you have something like an OCXO requiring higher supply current.


----------



## tdrood

b0bb said:


> The stock CCHD-575 XO current consumption is low between 15-25mA, 47uF is adequate.
> CCHD-950x consumes about the same amount of current, this makes it a straightforward swap.
> 
> Higher performance XOs like the SIT-5357 (65mA) and the OCXOs (150mA -1000mA) require more current, the filter capacitance has to be increased to keep the supply ripple and hence noise at the same level.


I have an SIT in mine, what do you recommend?


----------



## b0bb

tdrood said:


> I have an SIT in mine, what do you recommend?


I used 100uF on the output side and 820uF on the input side.
You may have to experiment with the value on the input side try values between 100uF and 820uF

I used Nichicon FPCAP RNL, these have very high pulse current capability.
https://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdfs/e-rnl.pdf

The larger values may pull in too much current on recharge causing the small inductor LKS used to overload.
If that happens you may need to reduce the size of the cap on the input side.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 20, 2021)

Bypassing the power and ground planes on a socketed SIT XO can improve its performance.

Vocal presentation is much improved,individual  voices in a chorus become more discernible.

Black cap is 47uF 10V 0805 Tantalum polymer
Ceramic cap is 100nF 35V 0805 X7R.

Both are generic parts available from the usual suppliers.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> I used 100uF on the output side and 820uF on the input side.
> You may have to experiment with the value on the input side try values between 100uF and 820uF
> 
> I used Nichicon FPCAP RNL, these have very high pulse current capability.
> ...


B0bb,
Do you know if there are any inductors before regulators for the es9038? 
I mean before the 1.2V and 3.3V power supplies.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Bypassing the power and ground planes on a socketed SIT XO can improve its performance.
> 
> Vocal presentation is much improved,individual  voices in a chorus become more discernible.
> 
> ...


Does anyone know if there is any place or onlineshop to buy the Rhea board (or similar) in Europe? It's great for testing oscillators, but shipping and customs can easily make us pay $ 35 for it when it's only $ 8.5 on the Twisted Pear Audio site.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> Do you know if there are any inductors before regulators for the es9038?
> I mean before the 1.2V and 3.3V power supplies.


Yes to both.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> Does anyone know if there is any place or onlineshop to buy the Rhea board (or similar) in Europe? It's great for testing oscillators, but shipping and customs can easily make us pay $ 35 for it when it's only $ 8.5 on the Twisted Pear Audio site.


https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/comp...-adaptateurs-pour-horloges-xo-x2-p-13825.html

Not as flexible as Rhea for smaller XOs like the SIT-5357 shown


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/comp...-adaptateurs-pour-horloges-xo-x2-p-13825.html
> 
> Not as flexible as Rhea for smaller XOs like the SIT-5357 shown


Thanks B0bb, I did not see this one, it is also 2 units for the price.


----------



## piaseczek

Rick Schultz's mod of the Gen 2:
1. PE connected directly to the board
2. Silver micas replaced to Amtrans AMCH
3. New diodes

Photos, unfortunately they can't be downloaded:
https://www.ukaudiomart.com/details...9038-pro-dsd-dac-fully-modded-by-ric-schultz/


----------



## ESL57 (Jun 22, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> Rick Schultz's mod of the Gen 2:
> 1. PE connected directly to the board
> 2. Silver micas replaced to Amtrans AMCH
> 3. New diodes
> ...


Those types of modifications already appeared around here in 2018, it was another different approach to improve the 004. Summarized:

1.  Remove fuse distortions.
2. Twist AC wires from IEC to power switch
3. Hard wire all AC connections to IEC inlet
4. Re-ground the shield wires from the transformers and hardwire.
5.  Remove all steel from around the transformers and remount transformers on pieces of wood.
6. Twist secondary AC wires.
7. Apply Graphene contact enhancer on AC connectors on board.
8. Damp all rectifier diodes with constrained layer damping material
9. Damp all heatsinks with constrained layer damping material.
10. Remove all coupling caps on the spdif inputs and replace with custom pure copper wire in cotton (listened to for directionality).
11. Shorten the signal path on the unbalanced outputs and use our custom wire here.
12. Eliminate one pole of filter caps in output stage.
13. Change all 16 compensation caps in all output stages to better ones.
14. Damp certain power supply caps
15. Change metalized polyester caps on 3.3V power supply to DAC with modified polyprop caps.
16. Properly orient poly caps on output of regulators for output stage.
17. Change IV resistors to high quality ones.
18. Eliminate distortion producing parts (3 of them)
19. Remount output transistors in IV stages and bend them forward so they are no longer close to the power supply caps and put a very thin piece of cardboard between the transistors and caps to further reduce their temperature.  The transistors in the stock LKS are too close to the caps and can cause them to burn up within a year if left on all the time.  The very latest LKS DACs have the transistors mounted underneath the chassis to eliminate this problem.  My solution works as well.

If you are not using the usb input then it will sound better if you either disconnect the power supply from the more expensive board or remove the board all together if you have the cheaper usb board.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-14480636
The most striking thing was to put wooden supports to the transformers and eliminate the fixings and the metal screw.


----------



## piaseczek

ESL57 said:


> Those types of modifications already appeared around here in 2018, it was another different approach to improve the 004.


I remember this mod, now when I understant more I see that it's completely different approach, less engineering and maybe without deeply understanding the problems.


----------



## ESL57

piaseczek said:


> Rick Schultz's mod of the Gen 2:
> 1. PE connected directly to the board
> 2. Silver micas replaced to Amtrans AMCH
> 3. New diodes
> ...


In this unit for sale strange unknowns are seen, what happened there?


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> In this unit for sale strange unknowns are seen, what happened there?


It looks like they replaced the shunt regulator with a LDO from Sparkos LAB


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> The DPLL will see increased jitter due to amplitude variations in the sine wave.
> You need a specialized chip called a sine to square converter, there is a price to be paid in terms of jitter.
> This is hard work to get very low jitter and is best left up to the manufacturer.
> 
> ...


B0bb a question about this ECOC OCXO, it consists of 5 terminals, 1 is Vcontrol and 2 is Vref, these pins would be left unconnected or do they need something for their correct operation?


----------



## b0bb (Jun 24, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> B0bb a question about this ECOC OCXO, it consists of 5 terminals, 1 is Vcontrol and 2 is Vref, these pins would be left unconnected or do they need something for their correct operation?


Vcontrol is normally half Vref, input impedance is 10k, check with ECS for specifics on the resistors and if they are mandatory, they are responsive to queries.


----------



## Xoverman

Sorry for not participating that much the last two weeks. I was busy with installing my neu LKS 004 analysingsystem.


----------



## piaseczek

Xoverman said:


> Sorry for not participating that much the last two weeks. I was busy with installing my neu LKS 004 analysingsystem.


Beauty of the accuphase is so special.

Ps. There are really big capacitors in your 004


----------



## ESL57

Xoverman said:


> Sorry for not participating that much the last two weeks. I was busy with installing my neu LKS 004 analysingsystem.


What have you done now, Mr. Xoverman? There are huge capacitors in the place where the transformers used to be, which you have designed now? You are a box of surprises!


----------



## Xoverman

This week I finally had the time to install the LT3083 Regulator for the DAC Core Supply.
Some people asked me by private chat to post the install Steps. So here are the steps. This is only valid for version 2 of the 004.  ( 4,1V )

!!!!  please wait with the installation for what I have to say in the next post  !!!!

Take out the secondary Capacitor, and the SET Pin Capacitor








Desolder both resistors :




Install a 82K Metal Film Resistor at the left position, and a 1µF Film Cap where the Set Pin Cap was :




- Remove the LM317.
- Tack the LT3083, and cut of the most left Pin, it's not connected internally anyway.
- Connect the two most right pins.








- Install the LT3083 on The PCB and heatsink
- Install the Secondary Filter Capacitor back where it was :







Thats it


----------



## piaseczek

Thank you Xoverman


----------



## Xoverman

LT3083 is not such a good idea !
Going from the LM317 to the LT3083 has pros and cons. The very first impression right at the beginning of the fiery fist song i listened to for testing gave me a wow effect.
Big room, lots of spatial information. But as soon as a singer or normal good focused instruments kick in there is very poor focus. Lots of detail, but very poor focus.

So I decided to do some research on my own. The fact that there is much more spatial information than with the LM317 suggests that the LT3083 is considerably less noisy, and he is probably also a little less stressed when he gets power peaks.
The fact that the focus of the instruments and singers is so poor, is most likely due to the poor ripple rejection of the LT3083. That creates jitter in the DAC what smears the focus. A small proof of this is that focus got a little better after I turned the two AC connections of the corresponding rectifier input.

Studying various data sheets for voltage regulators has brought interesting insights. The LT3083 isn't the best candidate for the job.  

A small overview table generated from diagrams taken from the respective data sheets provides a good comparison option :





What we can see is that the LT3083 has a considerably worse ripple rejection under load than the LM317 with SET pin capacitor. I think that's the reason for the bad focus.

I will now next try two LT3081 connected in parallel. With that construction I can also regulate 3A. Ripple rejection is way better than the LT3083. Note that for ripple rejection the most important frequencies are 100/120Hz and there harmonics.
Further advantages are, the already lower noise becomes even lower (root 2), and the SET pin cross current doubles, so that the SET pin resistance can be halved, and then also produces less noise. I will mount one LT3081 on each side of the heatsink.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 26, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> LT3083 is not such a good idea !
> Going from the LM317 to the LT3083 has pros and cons. The very first impression right at the beginning of the fiery fist song i listened to for testing gave me a wow effect.
> Big room, lots of spatial information. But as soon as a singer or normal good focused instruments kick in there is very poor focus. Lots of detail, but very poor focus.
> 
> ...


With 2 stage regulators, the ripple voltage noise is a non-issue, it is below regulator noise.

The LT3083's were for the  less critical circuits of the Gen1.
Delivering large load current quickly at low cost is more important than absolute noise and ripple rejection.

On my Gen 1 with a 10,000uF cap at the LT3083 input, the DC voltage is 7720mV
--> Idle AC ripple: 135mV
--> Full load AC ripple with DSD512: 142mV

LT3083 PSRR: 69dB@100Hz,  the output voltage noise is 0.050mV
--> 2818x reduction.

Second stage LT1763 on Gen1 PSRR: 61dB@100Hz
--> 1122x additional reduction.

I do not consider PSRR or ripple breakthru as an issue with 2 stage regulators

--> Ripple noise:  45nV (142mv/(1122x2818))
--> Regulator noise: 20,000nV

Regulator noise is the dominant issue here.

Picture shows the AC ripple voltage at LT3083 input with the DAC outputting DSD512




If you continue to be concerned about noise/ripple etc, spend the money on a high end regulator like the Belleson 3A SPX17, noise is 1000nV.
Replace both first and second stages, approx cost + shipping + taxes + import duties is 100-130USD.
This is the one you are using for the analog DAC voltage.

Going with the LT3081 is not a good path if you already do not like the sonic signature of the LT3083, try something else.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> With 2 stage regulators the ripple voltage noise is a non-issue, it is below regulator noise.
> 
> The LT3083's were for the  less critical circuits of the Gen1.
> Delivering large load current quickly at low cost is more important than absolute noise and ripple rejection.
> ...


Whel I wonder then why all the ultra high end refferce DAC's use triple regulation in many parts of the circuit, including the 005.
I have a friend that works at DASY in Hamburg, thay use 5 regulation stages cascaded to run a 32bit DAC that steers the magnetic fields of the colider. In ultra high precision instrumentation 3 to 4 cascaded regulator's is also very common. 
I'll try two LT3081 in parallel, and a LC filter in front of that. It will have the good ripple rejection of the LM317 and even much lower noise then the LT3083.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 26, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Whel I wonder then why all the ultra high end refferce DAC's use triple regulation in many parts of the circuit, including the 005.
> I have a friend that works at DASY in Hamburg, thay use 5 regulation stages cascaded to run a 32bit DAC that steers the magnetic fields of the colider. In ultra high precision instrumentation 3 to 4 cascaded regulator's is also very common.
> I'll try two LT3081 in parallel, and a LC filter in front of that. It will have the good ripple rejection of the LM317 and even much lower noise then the LT3083.


Yes multiple stages in series  is the way to go.
Instead of reducing the voltage feed to the DAC 1.2V regulators, add an additional stage in series and set the primary output back to 5V

This avoids having to use very large caps at the output, large output cap is how LM317 achieves its low steady state rejection.
Not relevant for a fast and constantly changing load like the DAC.

If you are using a LC filter, select a pi filter to get around the inductor's rising impedance with frequency.
The last thing we need is to starve the high speed digital logic in the DAC of current
Increasing the output impedance of the 1.2V supplies will do that.


There is no point in trying to reduce the ripple noise once it is below the regulator self noise.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 26, 2021)

@Xoverman, if you want to reduce noise over in the DAC digital supply, do not waste your time in trying to improve beyond the LT3083.
Combined 2 stage ripple noise is already below the noisefloor of the second stage regulators.
Second stage is the bottleneck.

You are already starting to expose the real issues with LKS decision to use a switched mode second stage regulator.
What you are hearing now is the classic symptoms of the effect of switched mode regulators in audio and it is terrible.

You were worried about jitter, just think about what injecting noise at 3.5MHz will do to the 9038's performance.
It is right in the middle band of the bit clock used in 88k/96k PCM.

If you want real improvement consider the following

Replace the switched mode second stage regulator
Feed the second stage from a different transformer winding, there are a few unused windings on the LKS stock transformer
Relatively easy, just remove the SMD inductor and connect another regulated supply in its place

Properly designed parallel LT3045 regulator board.
MP audio in Germany sell it https://www.mpaudio.net/hpuln-power-supplies
It takes care of messy issues like stability of many feedback loops in parallel


----------



## ESL57 (Jun 27, 2021)

b0bb said:


> A SP





Xoverman said:


> LT3083 is not such a good idea !
> Going from the LM317 to the LT3083 has pros and cons. The very first impression right at the beginning of the fiery fist song i listened to for testing gave me a wow effect.
> Big room, lots of spatial information. But as soon as a singer or normal good focused instruments kick in there is very poor focus. Lots of detail, but very poor focus.
> 
> ...


You are very bad boys , you are going to make me dust off my hp spectrum analyzer, open my 004 and measure the 100hz ripple before and after regulation, how happy I was to this day. I suppose that everything can still be improved, those modules LT3045 multi chps are the best in noise figures, also (buy or manufacture) one or several units like these:
https://uptoneaudio.com/products/ultracap-lps-1-2
To do something similar to the 005 power supply, one day we will have to stop and take a breath*.* ..   
If you decide on the 2x lt3081 you will tell us the results, it is an economical option to get a regulator up to 3A


----------



## piaseczek

Another low leakage current capacitors:

https://www.capacitorfaks.com/post/seven-low-dc-leakage-aluminum-electrolytic-capacitors-from-vishay


----------



## piaseczek

Vishay 510dx is interesting:

https://pl.mouser.com/Vishay/Alumin...Leaded/510DX-Series/_/N-1z0zls5Z75hqwZ1yzuv7h


----------



## b0bb (Jun 27, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> You are very bad boys , you are going to make me dust off my hp spectrum analyzer, open my 004 and measure the 100hz ripple before and after regulation, how happy I was to this day. I suppose that everything can still be improved, those modules LT3045 multi chps are the best in noise figures, also (buy or manufacture) one or several units like these:
> https://uptoneaudio.com/products/ultracap-lps-1-2
> To do something similar to the 005 power supply, one day we will have to stop and take a breath*.* ..
> If you decide on the 2x lt3081 you will tell us the results, it is an economical option to get a regulator up to 3A



Quite easy to measure the ripple at the regulator input and the amplitude is dependent on the capacitor.
On mine with 10000uF it is 140mV
On the stock 6800uf expect around 205mV

Using an even bigger cap like the 22000uF @Xoverman used, the ripple is even lower around 64mV

The combined reduction (PSRR) of the 2 stage regulators is 130dB or more, so there is very little to gain by pursuing further noise reduction.
We are below the DAC noise floor. 
About 28x below DAC noise floor.


130db down from 140mV is  44nV
9038Pro's  measured noise floor is around -130dBfs , that means
130dB down from 4V --> 1264nV


----------



## ESL57 (Jun 28, 2021)

The sound quality achieved is exceptional in a 004 modified with logical criteria and good materials, even the noise and the power supplies can be improved, I think this will always be possible, perhaps as I said, using power supplies with supercapacitors batteries in 2 banks seem to be the cusp of low noise, is it worth the effort and money?
More examples of  non-measurable noise:
https://www.alpha-audio.nl/review/multitest-externe-12-volt-voedingen/5/
I am also one of those who think that those power supplies with so many components in their design tend to be more prone to problems in the future, for example LPS-1.2 has more than 260 electronic components.
Other than this, how many of here have tested the benefit of raising Vcom to 1.3v?


----------



## Xoverman (Jun 28, 2021)

b0bb said:


> @Xoverman, if you want to reduce noise over in the DAC digital supply, do not waste your time in trying to improve beyond the LT3083.
> Combined 2 stage ripple noise is already below the noisefloor of the second stage regulators.
> Second stage is the bottleneck.
> 
> ...



Hey B0bb,
Looks like we're raiding the same trail.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Quite easy to measure the ripple at the regulator input and the amplitude is dependent on the capacitor.
> On mine with 10000uF it is 140mV
> On the stock 6800uf expect around 205mV
> 
> ...


I can not confirm that. The latest mod I've done made a huge improvement in everything.


----------



## Xoverman

The latest mod I've done made a huge improvement in everything. Core noise is down further by a factor of 10.
This supports my thesis that a factor of 10 of less noise in the LT3081 brings a considerable advantage.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 28, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> The latest mod I've done made a huge improvement in everything. Core noise is down further by a factor of 10.
> This supports my thesis that a factor of 10 of less noise in the LT3081 brings a considerable advantage.



What method did you use to show you obtained 10x reduction core noise?

What are your before and after noise numbers?

You posted photos of the LT3083 mod, pictures of your latest mod do not show any LT3081.
Please be clear about what your are saying here, most of your mods deal with suppressing noise generated *inside* the 004.

The noise generation is *after* the LT30xx regulator, the regulator is useless in the suppression of this type of noise.

See response below about 50/100Hz ripple noise.

My LT3083s took several weeks to settle down.
Making decisions on the LT3083 vs LT3081 after less than 1week, you may end up having to change things again.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 28, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> I can not confirm that. The latest mod I've done made a huge improvement in everything.






Make the simple measurement of the amount of 50/100 Hz AC ripple at the input of the regulator.
That was the basis of your thesis about noise @50/100 Hz.

50/100Hz Ripple noise is very low at regulator with your 2x 22000uF cap, estimated around 32mV.
(Actual numbers might be even lower if the effect of the inductor is considered)
If you see a significant difference post your measurement results.

At 32mV, with 130dB PSRR, of the 2 stage regulators the noise is insignificant.
Noise from the 9038 DAC is 120x higher.

Ripple noise the stock cap is 205mV, with your π filter mod, this is a 6.5x improvement.
This is something that is useful for those willing to make the change.
The measurements will clearly show there is an advantage over the stock setup.

Why are you reluctant to talk about this?


----------



## piaseczek

B0bb,
What is the optimal value for the Vcom capacitor? 1000-2200uF?

In the link below there is a methodology how to choose (leakage current = 0.002CV) and measure capacitors for the best leakage characteristics:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/diy-low-frenquency-noise-meter/msg952138/#msg952138


----------



## ESL57

Apart from the issue that you both bring and discuss up on the effect on the sound of the minor or major ripple in the power supply, you do not see anything good to the use of clean power with supercapacitors at some key point of clean power for our LKS, I know that they are dangerous in the sense that they are capable of giving enormous momentary currents.
It seems like a lot of new digital audio products are going that way. What do you think of B0bb and Xoverman?
Other example:
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/powe...-capacitor-conditioner-board-33v-p-14590.html
If one day I make an external power source superior to the current one, it could be a technology to take into account whenever it is really beneficial for the sq.


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## b0bb (Jun 30, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> What is the optimal value for the Vcom capacitor? 1000-2200uF?
> 
> In the link below there is a methodology how to choose (leakage current = 0.002CV) and measure capacitors for the best leakage characteristics:
> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/diy-low-frenquency-noise-meter/msg952138/#msg952138


150uF is what I used with the stock resistors, it has the lowest leakage around 1uA.

Bigger values improve the low end but also increases the leakage by 3-5x.
You will need to do your own experimentation to see what works best for you.

If you increase the values to 1500-2200uF, you could try to reduce the resistors by an equivalent amount, meaning increase cap value by 10x , decrease the resistors by 10x.
This increases the current in the reference voltage divider by 10x, this counteracts the increased leakage from the bigger cap.

Avoid aluminum electrolytics as the leakage exponentially increases with temperature, highly non linear behavior.
Wet tantalum leakage is linear with temps.


----------



## b0bb (Jun 30, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Apart from the issue that you both bring and discuss up on the effect on the sound of the minor or major ripple in the power supply, you do not see anything good to the use of clean power with supercapacitors at some key point of clean power for our LKS, I know that they are dangerous in the sense that they are capable of giving enormous momentary currents.
> It seems like a lot of new digital audio products are going that way. What do you think of B0bb and Xoverman?
> Other example:
> https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/powe...-capacitor-conditioner-board-33v-p-14590.html
> If one day I make an external power source superior to the current one, it could be a technology to take into account whenever it is really beneficial for the sq.


Supercap supplies are quite different from the supplies used in the 004.
You would have to install one into the 004 to make the determination if its claimed performance benefits is worth the hype.
In order to retrofit this type of supply you will need to add a power delay circuit.

This allows the supercaps time to charge.
SU-6 which uses supercaps has this type of mechanism and it takes about 1-2mins to completely start up.

This is complication is not often discussed  and you will have to plan for this.

The supercap board you linked looks like a good starting point, you will need 4 delay circuits , 1.2V DVDD/VDD,  3.3V AVCC, 3.3V VCCA/XO.
Check the schematic to see if the UCC board includes some sort of built in delay.

This sequencing is required to make sure the 9038 starts up properly.

The additional delay circuit is for the microcontroller, we do not want the microcontroller programing the DAC operating conditions  before the DAC is fully started up.
It must be the last to start up.

During the entire start up phase, the audio output must remain muted, there will be additional work required to adjust the delay for the audio muting relays.


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## ESL57 (Jun 30, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Supercap supplies are quite different from the supplies used in the 004.
> You would have to install one into the 004 to make the determination if its claimed performance benefits is worth the hype.
> In order to retrofit this type of supply you will need to add a power delay circuit.
> 
> ...


Yes, the start and stop system of the power supply that I want to design will be managed by a small pic microcontroller, it is very important what you mention that the start of the dac microcontroller must be the last thing to send the initial parameters to the 9038pro that must already be previously operative, in addition this pic must intervene with an output dedicated to the initial control of the silence relays before everything is operative. I am going to buy an evaluation module from a well-known brand of chips for supercaps control, there is a lot to study, also supercapacitors have a discharge period to take into account, I see it as a nice project, the risk of using supercapacitors that can blow up a pcb in microseconds in the event of a short circuit, the life of the designer and that of 004 himself are at risk until everything is not perfect, exciting project, crazy but exciting. It is something that certainly takes away the boredom if you have time to dedicate to it.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Supercap supplies are quite different from the supplies used in the 004.
> You would have to install one into the 004 to make the determination if its claimed performance benefits is worth the hype.
> In order to retrofit this type of supply you will need to add a power delay circuit.
> 
> ...


As I have been studying it seems that for every 100F of capacity a current of 0.3AH can be obtained, (300mA for one hour and 2.7v), with 2 supercapacitors of 3000F in series we obtain 1500F and up to 5.4v of maximum voltage, which gives a current capacity of 4.5AH for a cost of about $ 100 for these two supercapacitors with an expected life of 10 years, it seems that it would be useful for listening periods of a few hours of clean power with only a previous charge of several minutes If these data are accurate it does not seem like a far-fetched idea to use them only on the most noise sensitive power supplies of the dac.


----------



## BottleFred

ESL57 said:


> AB I suppose you mean the Amanero module, if you get the right transformers you can try the main board, it will sound without the display / keyboard module as long as the last time it was not removed in active USB mode or you will need a Amanero board if you don't have. The last time the input that was memorized will be active and if the volume is not kept to the minimum sound will come out, if you are lucky enough that it will stay in AES, OPT, COAX, I2S etc, you can try it, the display / keyboard module you will have to get it from the manufacturer It won't be easy to find that in the second-hand market I think.





ESL57 said:


> AB I suppose you mean the Amanero module, if you get the right transformers you can try the main board, it will sound without the display / keyboard module as long as the last time it was not removed in active USB mode or you will need a Amanero board if you don't have. The last time the input that was memorized will be active and if the volume is not kept to the minimum sound will come out, if you are lucky enough that it will stay in AES, OPT, COAX, I2S etc, you can try it, the display / keyboard module you will have to get it from the manufacturer It won't be easy to find that in the second-hand market I think.


Got a display and remote from Jinbo, works like a charm!
Again many thanks to you all 🙏🏻


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## b0bb (Jul 2, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> As I have been studying it seems that for every 100F of capacity a current of 0.3AH can be obtained, (300mA for one hour and 2.7v), with 2 supercapacitors of 3000F in series we obtain 1500F and up to 5.4v of maximum voltage, which gives a current capacity of 4.5AH for a cost of about $ 100 for these two supercapacitors with an expected life of 10 years, it seems that it would be useful for listening periods of a few hours of clean power with only a previous charge of several minutes If these data are accurate it does not seem like a far-fetched idea to use them only on the most noise sensitive power supplies of the dac.


Charging time of the supercap is an important aspect.
IANCanada's board with 150F caps takes 10mins to reach full charge @ 3.3V.

You were correct about the potential of accidents with the caps, keep the charging current below 1A to minimize the risk.

Charging time can be estimated by the following formula t = (capacitance x voltage)/(charging current)
This gives you a charging time of (1500x5.4)/1 = 8100 seconds or about 2.25 hours if you use a 1A constant current source.

You will need 3x3000F caps for 5.4V as they have to be very close to the hot running 004.
2.7V is at 25℃, at 65℃, safe operating voltage drops to 2-2.3V


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## ESL57 (Jul 2, 2021)

b0bb said:


> El tiempo de carga de la supercapa es un aspecto importante.
> La placa de IANCanada con tapas de 150F tarda 10 minutos en alcanzar la carga completa a 3.3V.
> 
> Tenías razón sobre el potencial de accidentes con las tapas, mantén la corriente de carga por debajo de 1A para minimizar el riesgo.
> ...


El manejo de la corriente de recarga es algo fundamental o la situación se vuelve muy peligrosa, por eso compré un kit de evaluación para ver a qué me estoy enfrentando y ver en la práctica que conclusiones saco de esto, si es seguro y factible lo haré, pero si no es confiable o útil quizás tomaré otro camino, pero está bien y me gusta aprender sobre este tema de supercaps y ver los pros y los contras. También veo que los últimos reguladores LDO (LT1763 y TPS7A4700) deben permanecer allí por seguridad y garantizar 1.3vy 3.3v y tendrán su propio ruido interno incluso si obtienen energía limpia.
Compre este kit de 5v y 2x 350F / 3v:
https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/700-MAX17701EVKITA#
https://www.mouser.es/datasheet/2/256/MAX17701EVKITA-1888114.pdf


----------



## ESL57

BottleFred said:


> Got a display and remote from Jinbo, works like a charm!
> Again many thanks to you all 🙏🏻


I'm glad you can enjoy it, it turned out very well.


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## b0bb (Jul 2, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> El manejo de la corriente de recarga es algo fundamental o la situación se vuelve muy peligrosa, por eso compré un kit de evaluación para ver a qué me estoy enfrentando y ver en la práctica que conclusiones saco de esto, si es seguro y factible lo haré, pero si no es confiable o útil quizás tomaré otro camino, pero está bien y me gusta aprender sobre este tema de supercaps y ver los pros y los contras. También veo que los últimos reguladores LDO (LT1763 y TPS7A4700) deben permanecer allí por seguridad y garantizar 1.3vy 3.3v y tendrán su propio ruido interno incluso si obtienen energía limpia.
> Compre este kit de 5v y 2x 350F / 3v:
> https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/700-MAX17701EVKITA#
> https://www.mouser.es/datasheet/2/256/MAX17701EVKITA-1888114.pdf


That is a 350kHz switched mode controller, noisy.

ADI makes a linear Supercap controller.
LTC4425 will supply up to 2A  charging current, this is a good match for the 1.2V supply, no series caps needed.
Would have no issues with 3.3V supply either

350F is overkill for something that consumes under 500mA (LT1763 max is 500mA)
Use something sensible around 1-5F.

Bigger caps bring a lot of problems like very large (> 10A) charging currents, very long charge times and extra safety precautions.

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/4425fa.pdf

https://www.digikey.com/en/products...gZwKYBoQB7KAbRAFYAGckAXQF96CAmUkDAF0QBZvmaGQA


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## ESL57 (Jul 2, 2021)

b0bb said:


> That is a 350kHz switched mode controller, noisy.
> 
> ADI makes a linear Supercap controller.
> LTC4425 will supply up to 2A  charging current, this is a good match for the 1.2V supply, no series caps needed.
> ...


Yes indeed that Maxim chip charges at a frequency of 350khz, in theory I did not see it as important because in the charging process the dac will be totally inactive, once the supercap is loaded, the pic would be notified of it by an input, disconnect the charging process and the oscillator, and it would be just waiting a user start button, before all that it would not be possible to turn on the dac, you have to put an input from the pic that detects low voltage and another high voltage from the supercap, perhaps with a few simple zener diodes that control transistors that set the level high or low to each entry would be enough, some LEDs could indicate the status of the process. What I saw very interesting about this Maxim evaluation kit is that they give you everything, even the supercapacitors, it is a fully assembled and tested module for only € 27, which is very interesting to do a safe load test of the supercaps and a subsequent test of the sound with clean energy in different supply points of the 004.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> Yes indeed that Maxim chip charges at a frequency of 350khz, in theory I did not see it as important because in the charging process the dac will be totally inactive, once the supercap is loaded, the pic would be notified of it by an input, disconnect the charging process and the oscillator, and it would be just waiting a user start button, before all that it would not be possible to turn on the dac, you have to put an input from the pic that detects low voltage and another high voltage from the supercap, perhaps with a few simple zener diodes that control transistors that set the level high or low to each entry would be enough, some LEDs could indicate the status of the process. What I saw very interesting about this Maxim evaluation kit is that they give you everything, even the supercapacitors, it is a fully assembled and tested module for only € 27, which is very interesting to do a safe load test of the supercaps and a subsequent test of the sound with clean energy in different supply points of the 004.


Are you thinking of using this as a battery replacement?

The 175F (2x350F in series) cap will last about 2 mins with a 1300mA load before voltage dips below 3.3V if the switched mode  supply is not on.
Not enough time for the 9038s to warm up.


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## Xoverman (Jul 3, 2021)

Last week i had some time to measure the effect of the first primary filter before the primary core voltage regulator.
Because i didn't want to measure the tiede in honolulu divided by the distance to the moon in meters, I have decided to put SMB sockets everywhere where I want to measure. The beginning is made by the first primary filter before the primary core voltage regulator. Right behind the rectifiers.

Ripple @ the 22.000µF Filter Cap first primary filter before the primary core voltage regulator :





Ripple @ the second 22.000µF primary Filter Cap filter before the primary core voltage regulator  ( same vertical resolution ):




Ripple @ the second 22.000µF primary Filter Cap filter before the primary core voltage regulator  ( vertical resolution X10 ):




The high frequency ripple on the signal is actual aliasing from a 6 MHz ozilation.
It can only be measured at the second Cap before the voltage regulator.


----------



## Xoverman

Hear is a measurement using the spectrum analyzer funktion at the second capacitor with the normal measurement probe that came with the scope :




Same measurement point but this time with the smb connection.
With the SMB connection you can clearly see the 6 MHz Resonanz in the PS  :


----------



## Xoverman

the first two SMB connectors in the PS :


----------



## Xoverman

Here is a low frequency FFT of the Core PS 

Ripple @ the 22.000µF Filter Cap first primary filter before the primary core voltage regulator :




Ripple @ the second 22.000µF primary Filter Cap filter before the primary core voltage regulator  ( same vertical resolution ):


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## b0bb (Jul 3, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Ripple @ the second 22.000µF primary Filter Cap filter before the primary core voltage regulator ...


The ripple with the π filter is very low about 14mV, this is a demonstration of the filter effectiveness.

This relieves the burden from the first stage regulator and opens up the possibility of using a supercap first stage.
A supercap regulator will add much improved current handling and superior large transient handling.

Nothing comes for free, expect reduction in PSRR and degradation in noise performance due to the the periodic charging pulses from the supercap controller
The  π filter  and the low initial ripple makes up for some of the short comings of the first point.




Below is an example of the very nasty switching noise as the supercap controller turns on/off the charging.
This is from the MAX17701 being discussed earlier.


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## b0bb (Jul 3, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Here is a low frequency FFT of the Core PS
> 
> Ripple @ the second 22.000µF primary Filter Cap filter before the primary core voltage regulator  ( same vertical resolution ):


The FFT agrees with the earlier measurement if the amplitudes of the primary plus 2nd and 3rd harmonics are added up and taking 7.70V DC as the reference.
7.70V is the DC input to the first stage regulator

This gives AC noise around 18.1mV rms which is is the same ballpark of 14.1mV from the earlier measurement.
Example: -55dB down from 7.70V is 13.7mV


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## ESL57 (Jul 3, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Are you thinking of using this as a battery replacement?
> 
> The 175F (2x350F in series) cap will last about 2 mins with a 1300mA load before voltage dips below 3.3V if the switched mode  supply is not on.
> Not enough time for the 9038s to warm up.


I only seeing if there is a reasonable performance possibility with the use of supercaps in the more noise sensitive dac supplies, 1300ma is a lot of current for only 175F, so look to get to 2x 3000F in series, maybe it would only be reasonable to use it for the 3.3v XO clock, batteries is another option if more current is needed to feed more dac supplies, my idea is to make an external power supply that can switch to standard mode or clean power mode, the latter perhaps for sessions of listen for not too long, we're just catching ideas.


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## b0bb (Jul 3, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> I only seeing if there is a reasonable performance possibility with the use of supercaps in the more noise sensitive dac supplies, 1300ma is a lot of current for only 175F, so look to get to 2x 3000F in series, maybe it would only be reasonable to use it for the 3.3v XO clock, batteries is another option if more current is needed to feed more dac supplies, my idea is to make an external power supply that can switch to standard mode or clean power mode, the latter perhaps for sessions of listen for not too long, we're just catching ideas.


1500F (2x3000F in series) is 8x more, this gets you 17mins, not much of an improvement.
This is an incorrect use of supercaps.

Supercaps are not batteries and they perform poorly when forced into that role.
The correct use of supercaps is what Singxer did on the SU6 and LKS on the 005, the charger is always on.

XO clock is a constant load, no benefit from the quick current delivery supercaps provide.
Gen2 use LT3045 as does SU-6, Gen1 use TPS7A47, all work very well, best left alone.


Batteries have low noise but  high ESR compared to caps, they were a fad for audiophiles sometime back.
Modern voltage regulators have made them obsolete.

It is a mistake to think clean power cannot be obtained onboard with the 004.

The modern regulators we have at our disposal today are so quiet that they are below the noise floor of the 9038
Examples (20Hz -22kHz):
LT3045 : 0.8uV
Belleson SPLX :1uV

9038Pro noise floor: 1.2uV


----------



## Xoverman

Yesterday i installed some more SMB Sockets into the 004.

This is the noise at the output of the primary core regulator




this is the noise at the output of the primary core regulator but triggered for the highest peak.
I guess it's when the linedrivers come into play :


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## ESL57

b0bb said:


> 1500F (2x3000F in series) is 8x more, this gets you 17mins, not much of an improvement.
> This is an incorrect use of supercaps.
> 
> Supercaps are not batteries and they perform poorly when forced into that role.
> ...


Yes, I agree, audio fads come but sometimes they don't stay for long, until now the supercaps were for use in energy maintenance for volatile memories with little consumption, maybe and it is just my thought that it is not from Engineer, the only positive thing is the ultra low internal resistance of the new high capacity supercaps that could be beneficial to reduce noise and residual AC, being a short circuit for all this, the use as a DC accumulator is true that it is little efficient as you comment B0bb.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> this is the noise at the output of the primary core regulator but triggered for the highest peak.
> I guess it's when the linedrivers come into play :


What is the timescale/horizontal axis on the trace and is the primary regularor rated at 1.5A ?


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## b0bb (Jul 4, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Yes, I agree, audio fads come but sometimes they don't stay for long, until now the supercaps were for use in energy maintenance for volatile memories with little consumption, maybe and it is just my thought that it is not from Engineer, the only positive thing is the ultra low internal resistance of the new high capacity supercaps that could be beneficial to reduce noise and residual AC, being a short circuit for all this, the use as a DC accumulator is true that it is little efficient as you comment B0bb.


Supercaps perform well for sort current peaks, this makes them ideal supply buffers or conditioners.

IANCanada's UCC 3.3V and 5V boards is the best use of supercaps for this type of appplication that I have come across, suggest you begin there.
Analog's LTC4425 eval board is another option at around the same price once you include the cost of the supercap.

Ultra low ESR is not unique to supercaps, the Nichicon 820uF RNL FPCaps comes very close.
You will need 3x 350F in series for the 004, this is an ESR of 6mΩ, 820uF RNL is 8mΩ


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## Xoverman (Jul 4, 2021)

b0bb said:


> What is the timescale/horizontal axis on the trace and is the primary regularor rated at 1.5A ?


10ns for every square, you can see it on the top of the picture.
2x LT3081 in parallel.


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## b0bb (Jul 4, 2021)

This is the trace of the same supply, regulator is LT3083
The general ripple trace shape and  amplitude appear similar to @Xoverman's results.




However I think the ripple amplitudes are too high at 700-800uV rms.
Effective PSRR is only 49dB, input noise is 140mV, datasheet numbers are > 75dB

I decided to re-do the measurement on my Fluke 87V, the True RMS function has a bandwidth of 200kHz
Measument performed with DSD512 output.
Used a shielded tweezer type probe

*The noise number is exactly what Analog put in their datasheet --> 40uV*





This was an unexpected surprise, this shows the 004 on board regulator setup is capable of very low noise levels.
Noise at the output of the second stage Belleson SPLX is below my meter's measurement capability of 10uV


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## b0bb (Jul 5, 2021)

The above measurement shows that with a sufficiently large power supply cap, input 100/120Hz ripple is reduced to below the regulator noise floor.

In this instance the measurement  number is literally the regulator self noise.


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## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> The above measurement shows that with a sufficiently large power supply cap, input 100/120Hz ripple is reduced to below the regulator noise floor.
> 
> In this instance the measurement  number is literally the regulator self noise.


Almost. I can measure it


----------



## Xoverman

Yesterday i dug out one of my 20 years old x100/1000 noise measurement Preamplifiers.
In my 004 there was still the original LM317 pre Regulator for the CPU Supply. 
Since I placed SMB sockets all over the place, it was very easy to messure befor and after exchanging the LM317 against a LT3081.

The Measurement setup was not changed , and was keept on during the regulator Upgrade. No position of cables or Instruments was changed, everything stade exactly at the same place.

LM317 CPU Regulator output in LKS 004





LT3081 CPU Regulator output in LKS 004   ( 1µ Set Pin Capacitor )



Noiseflore of measurement system





Ripple rejection of the LT3081 is about 10 dB better the the LM317, and Nois flore is about 6-8dB lower with the LT3081.
Not to talk about the massive Sonic improvement.


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## b0bb (Jul 5, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Ripple rejection of the LT3081 is about 10 dB better the the LM317, and Nois flore is about 6-8dB lower with the LT3081.
> Not to talk about the massive Sonic improvement.


The noise peaks at 50Hz and 100Hz are 84uV and 56uV, a little higher that what I measured on the LT3083 at 40uV.
When averaged over a 200kHz bandwidth, I expect the number to fall into the same ballpark.

Ripple becomes a non issue once the 2nd stage regulator comes into play.
60dB PSRR@50Hz can be expected from any good voltage regulator, that is a 1000x reduction in the  ripple amplitude.

LT30xx devices are not super quiet, I chose the LT3083 as a modern low cost replacement for the LM317.
It is capable supplying more current and being able to handle transient loads that cause a step change in the current.

It had to have a noise profile no worse than the LM317, the 10dB improvement is a modest performance bonus.

If you want to reduce noise further replace the second stage, noise floor is 4uV on Gen2s and 20uV on Gen1s
The Belleson SPLX I am using has a noise floor of 1uV and reacts to load changes 10x faster than the LT30xx


----------



## Xoverman

Yesterday I made a comparison measurement of three LKS 004 regulators :

CPU Regulator Sec.  Output x100 with a LT3081 Regulator  ( green )
Core Regulator Sec.  Output x100 with 2x LT3081 Regulators in Parallel  ( red )
DAC Analog Regulator Sec. Output x100 with a Belleson SPLX  ( blue )
Noise Floor  ( purple )

The Belleson has the lowes noise. But i it looks like the lt3081 has better ripple rejection ????
I attached the REW files to this post


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## b0bb (Jul 7, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Yesterday I made a comparison measurement of three LKS 004 regulators :
> 
> CPU Regulator Sec.  Output x100 with a LT3081 Regulator  ( green )
> Core Regulator Sec.  Output x100 with 2x LT3081 Regulators in Parallel  ( red )
> ...


These traces appear to have been taken on 3 different circuits with different load conditions and differences in input and output filtering.

The voltage level of ripple at the input must be exactly the same in all cases to make any meaningful comparisons of ripple reduction.

Similarly the output filter cap and output load conditions has to be exactly the same in order to evaluate any differences in noise performance.


----------



## BottleFred

b0bb said:


> You will need to connect pin 14 of the HDMI connector to ground.
> This gives you PCM only playback.
> 
> LKS follows the PS-Audio layout if you are outputting PCM except the master clock connection is not needed.


Hi B0bb,
Is there an opposite way to get the LKS i2s only in DSD mode?
PCM works flawlessly from my Hifiberry digi+ pro. But when I set Roon to DSD64 (Max setting digi+) it stays in PCM 176 locked but no sound. I’ve enabled DSD over PCM in Raspberry settings.
Anything I’m missing?


----------



## b0bb

BottleFred said:


> Hi B0bb,
> Is there an opposite way to get the LKS i2s only in DSD mode?
> PCM works flawlessly from my Hifiberry digi+ pro. But when I set Roon to DSD64 (Max setting digi+) it stays in PCM 176 locked but no sound. I’ve enabled DSD over PCM in Raspberry settings.
> Anything I’m missing?


The software running on the RPi has to be configured to report the DAC is DSD DoP capable.
Roon is quite picky about this.

More info on checking for this.
https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/conversion-to-pcm
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/what-is-required-for-native-dsd-on-linux/20795


----------



## BottleFred

b0bb said:


> The software running on the RPi has to be configured to report the DAC is DSD DoP capable.
> Roon is quite picky about this.
> 
> More info on checking for this.
> ...


Tnx! I’ll read into it and fiddle around with the RPi running on RopieeeXL.


----------



## ESL57 (Jul 10, 2021)

En breve pondré las medidas de mi analizador de hp en las fuentes de alimentación, mientras me divierto con el pcb supercaps Maxim, estoy fabricando una carga electrónica ajustable hasta 10A con un mosfet de potencia y uno operacional entre otros elementos, sin esto no yo puede hacer pruebas reales antes de instalarlo en el dac.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> En breve pondré las medidas de mi analizador de hp en las fuentes de alimentación, mientras me divierto con el pcb supercaps Maxim, estoy fabricando una carga electrónica ajustable hasta 10A con un mosfet de potencia y uno operacional entre otros elementos, sin esto no yo puede hacer pruebas reales antes de instalarlo en el dac.


I am very curious what your findings will be.


----------



## szrurs03

b0bb said:


> 004'te 9038 sarf malzemeleri için dijital ve analog birbirine bağlı, kartı kesmeden pek bir şey yapamıyor.
> Belleson SPX17'yi kullandım, yaklaşık 6 kat daha ucuz olduğu için LT3083 ile değiştirilebilir.
> 
> 
> ...





b0bb said:


> 004'te 9038 sarf malzemeleri için dijital ve analog birbirine bağlı, kartı kesmeden pek bir şey yapamıyor.
> Belleson SPX17'yi kullandım, yaklaşık 6 kat daha ucuz olduğu için LT3083 ile değiştirilebilir.
> 
> 
> ...


Merhaba Bob
bellesson kartı kaç volt olmalıdır.3.3v? 5v?


----------



## ESL57

B0bb, Xoverman, this is the electronic load that I have designed to test the supercapacitor module, I think it is enough to be able to see many parameters such as the dreaded charge noise of 350Khz, 5v are necessary for the oamp and the power supply of the visualizer display V / A (this will be disconnectable), I do not know if they should be 5v low noise or this is not critical.


----------



## b0bb

szrurs03 said:


> Merhaba Bob
> bellesson kartı kaç volt olmalıdır.3.3v? 5v?


5V


----------



## szrurs03 (Jul 12, 2021)

you used a tekdevice card before why did you change it


----------



## b0bb

szrurs03 said:


> you used a tekdevice card before why did you change it


Belleson SPX not available in 2014, the Tekdevice was on a different DAC, MH-DA003.
That was a long time ago, Tekdevice no longer make the regulator.


----------



## szrurs03

If the Tekdevice board is produced, will it replace the 3083?
what do you think
please forgive me for my bad english


----------



## b0bb (Jul 16, 2021)

szrurs03 said:


> If the Tekdevice board is produced, will it replace the 3083?
> what do you think
> please forgive me for my bad english


That specific Tekdevice was never a viable option for the dual 9038, it cannot supply enough current, forget about it.

Stick with the 3083, it just works if you follow what I have done  (2700uF Nichicon UBY for output filter cap and 0.15uF polypropylene for the reference bypass).
Sit back and give it about a month to settle in, early patience here will pay off .


----------



## szrurs03

Thank you for your patience and understanding.
can you please add mouser links of these three parts
Thank you from now bobb


----------



## b0bb

szrurs03 said:


> Thank you for your patience and understanding.
> can you please add mouser links of these three parts
> Thank you from now bobb


LT3083
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/LT3083ETPBF?qs=hVkxg5c3xu%2BEQibxnmC0QQ==

Nichicon UBY output cap
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...MlCYIMhCzl%2BjihraN7osFmzRZ5uivCPPpke8zKAeKOE

0.15uF WIMA
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKP2D031501H00JSSD?qs=ISKKXg98%2B1nrJXk5GuldFQ==

84K 1206 resistor if Gen2
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...=sGAEpiMZZMtG0KNrPCHnjcw5YEfc3YKNHtxvOF23IPU=

100K 1206 resistor if Gen1
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Thin-Film/PTN0805E1003BST1?qs=ko0lFLRalIO6TUz33knkKQ==


----------



## szrurs03

Hello b0bb
GEN1 AND GEN2 how can I figure it out?
my chip is 9028pro serial


----------



## b0bb

szrurs03 said:


> Hello b0bb
> GEN1 AND GEN2 how can I figure it out?
> my chip is 9028pro serial


Post a photo of your dac's board, must show the dac chips and regulators


----------



## szrurs03

b0bb said:


> Dac kartınızın bir fotoğrafını yayınlayın, dac çiplerini ve düzenleyicileri göstermelidir


----------



## szrurs03

hello b0bb 
I have two saved on my phone
i will upload soon


----------



## b0bb (Jul 19, 2021)

szrurs03 said:


> hello b0bb
> I have two saved on my phone
> i will upload soon


Your DAC is a Gen1.
LKS made changes as to the DAC DVDD voltage over the years.

If want to use the same voltage as you currently have, measure the regulator voltage as shown below.
I expect it to be between 4V and 5V

100k on LT3083 will give you 5V, 84k gives you 4.2V.
Use this as reference to adjust output to the desired output voltage


----------



## szrurs03 (Jul 19, 2021)

hello b0bb
I measured where you showed.
5v


----------



## Xoverman

Last week I seperate the 9038pro Core supply and the linedriver Supply. Now it's easier to see which consumer generates the most noise.
And its clearly the analog/digital Core that has tremendous transient current demand. All measurements are integrated for a couple of minutes to get good signal to noise.

Line Driver Supply with and without Pink Noiss




Core Digital / Analog with and without Pink Noise


----------



## piaseczek (Jul 24, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> And its clearly the analog/digital Core that has tremendous transient current demand.



Maybe that's why the 0.8A LP38798s were chosen in the Gen2.


----------



## Xoverman

Yes that could be the reason. But thay should have taken two LT3045. One for 1.3V core analog, and one for 1.3V digital.


----------



## Xoverman

B0bb, when you replaced the two  post core regulator's , did you connect / use the enable Pin's?


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> B0bb, Xoverman, this is the electronic load that I have designed to test the supercapacitor module, I think it is enough to be able to see many parameters such as the dreaded charge noise of 350Khz, 5v are necessary for the oamp and the power supply of the visualizer display V / A (this will be disconnectable), I do not know if they should be 5v low noise or this is not critical.


Sorry to answer so lait. If you want to measure how long it will take to discharge the super Capacitors, then the power supply quality is not important. But if you want to measure the noise of the circuit, then you better use 5V generated from a Battery


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> B0bb, when you replaced the two  post core regulator's , did you connect / use the enable Pin's?


No.
Gen1s use the LT1763, enable pin is connected to supply input.


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Yes that could be the reason. But thay should have taken two LT3045. One for 1.3V core analog, and one for 1.3V digital.


That is what LKS did on the 3.2k USD bugfix version of the 004.
Lumping analog and digital 1.3V together was a design mistake on the 004.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> That is what LKS did on the 3.2k USD bugfix version of the 004.
> Lumping analog and digital 1.3V together was a design mistake on the 004.


YES, and also adding the line driver's supply to the same regulator . Separating the line driver's from the core supply gave quite some more clarity too the presentation. I didn't expect that much of an improvement.


----------



## piaseczek

Xoverman said:


> YES, and also adding the line driver's supply to the same regulator . Separating the line driver's from the core supply gave quite some more clarity too the presentation. I didn't expect that much of an improvement.



Xoverman,
Do you have large fpcaps installed for the line drivers? Maybe it will partially separate the line drivers from the core's PSU?


----------



## b0bb (Jul 25, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> YES, and also adding the line driver's supply to the same regulator . Separating the line driver's from the core supply gave quite some more clarity too the presentation. I didn't expect that much of an improvement.


That is expected, on Gen2 LKS reduced the voltage input to the 2nd stage to 4V - 4.2V, the TPS7A47 regulator had only 700mV - 900mV to work with.
Buffering for transient load current demand non-existent because LKS used the small ceramic caps.

This causes 5V line regulation problems which spilled over to the DAC core, the drivers can take up to 200mA


----------



## b0bb

The smaller version of the 10000uF DNM split foil caps have recently become available.
It replaces the 10000uF 63V Mundorf MLGO on the ±15V analog supply.

This one is made by Supertech and is a substitute for the very hard to get 50V Kemet ALC10S.
Sold by Partsconnection:  https://www.partsconnexion.com/SUPTEC-88239.html

Other places do not sell this small version which fits on the 004 board and does not obstruct the top cover.

Split foil caps reduce the eddy currents inside the capacitor.
http://www.dnm.co.uk/capacitors.html






The big 10000uF 63V Mundorf was an incremental upgrade over stock 4700uF, it smoothed out the presentation overall.
The DNM Split foil is a large step up from this.

The lower midrange of the 004 has always been somewhat lack luster, this takes away the impact of bass and sub-bass transients common in percussion.
For example kick-drums now has the speed and impact, with speakers you can feel the visceral sub bass in addition to the sound coming direct from the speaker.

Springsteen's I'm on Fire from the Born In the USA album opens with this type of kick drum, I can both hear and feel the rush of air as the hammer hits the drum.

Grand pianos with this new changes takes on a substantially increased presence.
Top end is not sacrificed, this means it is not merely shifting around the frequency spectrum.

Last but not least, it is about 1/3rd the cost of the Mundorf.


----------



## b0bb

Pictures of the DNM Supertech cap beside the Mundorf MLGO




Slightly larger than the Mundorf.





Both caps in the board


----------



## Xoverman

piaseczek said:


> Xoverman,
> Do you have large fpcaps installed for the line drivers? Maybe it will partially separate the line drivers from the core's PSU?


No, I wanted to give the line driver's a own regulator first. I didn't want noise current comming from the core to polut the ground plain going to the line driver's. Now I might give it a neu try.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> The smaller version of the 10000uF DNM split foil caps have recently become available.
> It replaces the 10000uF 63V Mundorf MLGO on the ±15V analog supply.
> 
> This one is made by Supertech and is a substitute for the very hard to get 50V Kemet ALC10S.
> ...


That seems to be a interesting capacitor. I think I'll give it a try.


----------



## szrurs03

b0bb said:


> LT3083
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/LT3083ETPBF?qs=hVkxg5c3xu%2BEQibxnmC0QQ==
> 
> Nichicon UBY output cap
> ...


hello b0bb
nikhicon uby 2700 and 100k no resistor please help
What else could it be instead?


----------



## b0bb

szrurs03 said:


> hello b0bb
> nikhicon uby 2700 and 100k no resistor please help
> What else could it be instead?


What is the problem?


----------



## szrurs03

b0bb said:


> What is the problem?


----------



## szrurs03

parça yok, Mouser


----------



## szrurs03

szrurs03 said:


> parça yok, Mouser


no parts ,mouser


----------



## b0bb

szrurs03 said:


> no parts ,mouser


Mouser has the 2200uF 50V in stock, use that as a substitute about 10% lower current capability
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UBY1H222MHL?qs=P8zB4ONU6fx/DqQI4BhBBA==


----------



## szrurs03

100K 1206 resistor
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Thin-Film/PTN0805E1003BST1?qs=ko0lFLRalIO6TUz33knkKQ==
hello b0bb
what could it be instead?


----------



## b0bb

szrurs03 said:


> 100K 1206 resistor
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Thin-Film/PTN0805E1003BST1?qs=ko0lFLRalIO6TUz33knkKQ==
> hello b0bb
> what could it be instead?


Try this link
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Thin-Film/PTN1206E1003BBT1?qs=q8fegZIhAPsSeL5fyrHpJg==


----------



## Xoverman (Aug 5, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Pictures of the DNM Supertech cap beside the Mundorf MLGO
> 
> 
> Slightly larger than the Mundorf.
> ...



Last weekend I exchanged the 2x 10.000µF Mundorf against the 2x 10.000 Supertech. My impression is that it gives a very very small bass definition improvement.
But that can be because i allredy  have 30.000µF of pre filtering in front of them


----------



## Xoverman

Yesterday I installed a LT3045 module ( of course with an 22µF CAP ) as an exchange vor the Analog Devices 3.3V LDO regulator on the USB input side of the SU-6. The effect is very interesting, and unexpected. I thought it would bring even more focus, but instead it brought blackness. It took a lot of fussiness from the highs. You also get the impression of calmness and quietness inside of yourself.

It’s like being intimae and alone with the artist in an absolute silent room. Very strange.

A first and very easy step in this direction was the 100µF Polymer CAP right beside the USB connector.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 6, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Yesterday I installed a LT3045 module ( of course with an 22µF CAP ) as an exchange vor the Analog Devices 3.3V LDO regulator on the USB input side of the SU-6. The effect is very interesting, and unexpected. I thought it would bring even more focus, but instead it brought blackness. It took a lot of fussiness from the highs. You also get the impression of calmness and quietness inside of yourself.
> 
> It’s like being intimae and alone with the artist in an absolute silent room. Very strange.
> 
> A first and very easy step in this direction was the 100µF Polymer CAP right beside the USB connector.


The galvanic isolator is not correctly connected.

Pins 7 and 10 on the IL717 are NO-Connection pins per NVE datasheet.
You connected these pins to 3.3V.




Fix this before you risk causing permanent damage.

Correct connection.





Pinouts





Clean up the soldering flux mess, it adds unwanted capacitance between the pins.
In the worst case, pins 5,6 and 11,12 have increased unwanted signal coupling.
They are in different directions you end up with the signals circling around the isolator  like a merrry-go-round or carousel


----------



## b0bb (Aug 6, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Last weekend I exchanged the 2x 10.000µF Mundorf against the 2x 10.000 Supertech. My impression is that it gives a very very small bass definition improvement.
> But that can be because i allredy  have 30.000µF of pre filtering in front of them


I posted about this on Jul 25th and you commented on Aug 5th.

Making judgements after a few days of usage is premature.
Electrolytic caps have settling in times especially these large ones.

How about posting photos of what you did ?

A cap costing 30% of the expensive Mundorf is able to hold its own, says to me the 10,000uF Mundorf is poor value for money.
A pair costs 60USD, including shipping and taxes this is closer to 80USD

I find the 10000uF Mundorf to be a slight improvement for a very high cost. I will not be buying any more.
Instead I bought 4 more of the Supertechs to upgrade my older MH-DA003


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> The galvanic isolator is not correctly connected.
> 
> Pins 7 and 10 on the IL717 are NO-Connection pins per NVE datasheet.
> You connected these pins to 3.3V.
> ...


Thanks B0bb for paying so much attention und watching over us. We all make mistakes from time to time. And it's good when someone tells you about it. 
But in this case I think your wrong:

no (internal) connection (pin) (NC)​A terminal that has no internal connection and that can be used as a support for external wiring without disturbing the function of the device, provided that the voltage applied to this terminal (by means of the wiring) does not exceed the highest supply voltage rating of the circuit.
NOTE 1 If higher voltages are acceptable, this should be stated.
NOTE 2 The IEC equivalent term is "blank terminal"; nevertheless, the IEC abbreviation is "NC".
References: 
JESD21-C#, 1/97
JESD77-B, 2/00
JESD78A#, 2/06
JESD99B, 5/07

https://www.jedec.org/standards-documents/dictionary/terms/no-internal-connection-pin-nc


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> Thanks B0bb for paying so much attention und watching over us. We all make mistakes from time to time. And it's good when someone tells you about it.
> But in this case I think your wrong:
> 
> no (internal) connection (pin) (NC)​A terminal that has no internal connection and that can be used as a support for external wiring without disturbing the function of the device, provided that the voltage applied to this terminal (by means of the wiring) does not exceed the highest supply voltage rating of the circuit.
> ...


Wrong.

NVE said no connection to the chip, you connected  3.3V.

NVE is only mechanically compliant to JEDEC for the pin creepage distances.

JEDEC is an advisory standard, manufacturers are under no obligation to follow all of it.


----------



## ESL57 (Aug 8, 2021)

Some summer upgrades before tackling the "external power supply" project, all based on B0bb's recommendations from a few months ago. Basically higher capacity in some critical points and changes of 100nf mylar capacitors, and the Kemet Slit Foil of 10,000uf / 63v that have forced me to relocate some diodes due to their large size. Now shoot a few days to hear what happened.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 7, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> Algunas mejoras de verano antes de afrontar el proyecto de "fuente de alimentación externa", todas basadas en las recomendaciones de B0bb de hace unos meses. Básicamente mayor capacidad en algunos puntos críticos y cambios de condensadores mylar de 100nf, y el Kemet Slit Foil de 10.000uf / 63v que me han obligado a reubicar algunos diodos por su gran tamaño. Ahora rodar unos días para escuchar lo que pasó.


The reference resistor is high impedance, move it closer to the regulator reference pin to reduce noise pickup.




Add the bypass cap in the previous position.
LT3083 is wide bandwidth, the bypass cap needs to be on the same side of the board.
Connecting it on the other side adds unwanted inductance.


----------



## b0bb

ESL57 said:


> Algunas mejoras de verano antes de afrontar el proyecto de "fuente de alimentación externa", todas basadas en las recomendaciones de B0bb de hace unos meses. Básicamente mayor capacidad en algunos puntos críticos y cambios de condensadores mylar de 100nf, y el Kemet Slit Foil de 10.000uf / 63v que me han obligado a reubicar algunos diodos por su gran tamaño. Ahora rodar unos días para escuchar lo que pasó.


The large caps will take a while to settle down.
Sound quality from the DAC will alternate between good and bad for a few weeks during this time.

The burn-in time can be reduced if the DAC is left powered on 24x7.

The 10,000uF ALC10S will benefit from additional bypass.
I added a 1uF 50V PPS cap at the input to the regulator.

Note this is the regulator input not between the 10,000uF cap.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> The reference resistor is high impedance, move it closer to the regulator reference pin to reduce noise pickup.
> 
> 
> Add the bypass cap in the previous position.
> ...





b0bb said:


> The reference resistor is high impedance, move it closer to the regulator reference pin to reduce noise pickup.
> 
> 
> Add the bypass cap in the previous position.
> ...


Yes, right, that resistance should be behind in smd pads, I will correct it, the capacitor is soldered on the bottom side, I will put them as you say.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> The large caps will take a while to settle down.
> Sound quality from the DAC will alternate between good and bad for a few weeks during this time.
> 
> The burn-in time can be reduced if the DAC is left powered on 24x7.
> ...


Ok thanks, I did not know about this condenser, I will install them in that place, I will have patience in the burning process.


----------



## Xoverman

ESL57 said:


> Some summer upgrades before tackling the "external power supply" project, all based on B0bb's recommendations from a few months ago. Basically higher capacity in some critical points and changes of 100nf mylar capacitors, and the Kemet Slit Foil of 10,000uf / 63v that have forced me to relocate some diodes due to their large size. Now shoot a few days to hear what happened.


Great idea putting the rectifier diodes under the PCB to have space for the capacitors.


----------



## Monolithic

Hi b0bb,

Do you have a parts link to the caps used in your power supply (circled in yellow)?

Thanks.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> Hi b0bb,
> 
> Do you have a parts link to the caps used in your power supply (circled in yellow)?
> 
> Thanks.


4.7uF Panasonic Polypropylene.
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/panasonic/ecw-fd2w475jb/?qs=9JuRDuJWUh8Qp3Xb43bNnA==


----------



## ESL57

It is in the burn-out period, the positions were corrected for the LT regulator adjustment components, 1uf / 63v capacitors installed, here you can see how small the original Mundorf seems.


----------



## Monolithic

b0bb said:


> 4.7uF Panasonic Polypropylene.
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/panasonic/ecw-fd2w475jb/?qs=9JuRDuJWUh8Qp3Xb43bNnA==



Thanks b0bb!


----------



## leondikim

b0bb said:


> The regulator replacements, starting from left to right
> Belleson SPX17 5V 3A for the primary 5V regulator
> 
> 
> ...


Dear b0bb,
Is Belleson SPX17 5V 3A for the positive output? Also is the output voltage variable from +5V to +30V or +5V fixed? I put a link that I find here. 

https://www.belleson.com/store/SPX17-Positive-Output
SPX17 Positive Output

Another question I have is 100k Vishay PTN Tantalum Nitiride 0.1% resistors. Is this one the right one?
https://www.digikey.com/en/products...IAugL6OEBMZIACgCoByADHH4BWAJph+-AMwAhAMrcITIA
PTN0805Y1003BST1 Resistor

Thank you very much!


----------



## b0bb

leondikim said:


> Dear b0bb,
> Is Belleson SPX17 5V 3A for the positive output? Also is the output voltage variable from +5V to +30V or +5V fixed? I put a link that I find here.
> 
> https://www.belleson.com/store/SPX17-Positive-Output
> ...


Fixed +5V for the Belleson

The correct 100k resistor is
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Thin-Film/PTN1206E1003BBT1?qs=q8fegZIhAPsSeL5fyrHpJg==


----------



## leondikim

b0bb said:


> Fixed +5V for the Belleson
> 
> The correct 100k resistor is
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Thin-Film/PTN1206E1003BBT1?qs=q8fegZIhAPsSeL5fyrHpJg==





Thank you!! So is the highlighted area the resistor?


----------



## b0bb

leondikim said:


> Thank you!! So is the highlighted area the resistor?


The resistor is on the main pc board


----------



## leondikim

Xoverman said:


> This week I finally had the time to install the LT3083 Regulator for the DAC Core Supply.
> Some people asked me by private chat to post the install Steps. So here are the steps. This is only valid for version 2 of the 004.  ( 4,1V )
> 
> !!!!  please wait with the installation for what I have to say in the next post  !!!!
> ...


Thank you for sharing your great work. I have a few questions for you 😁

1) I found that two SET pin capacitors are soldered with WIMA capacitors underneath the pcb. After replacing the SET pin capacitors with 1uF film cap, did you solder back the WIMA cap? 

2) May I know the 1uF film cap manufacturer/model number? How many did you need? 3 or 2?

3) Did you replace the resistors and the SET pin capacitor where you installed SPX17? If you put the same 1uF film cap and 82k metal film resistor with SPX17, does it mean that I need three 1uF film caps and three 82k metal film resistor? 

I appreciate your help!


----------



## leondikim (Aug 15, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Add resistors, diodes and caps






Hi b0bb,
Thank your for answering my beginner's question. Here are another questions I have:

In the *red colored box*, what did you connect with a wire shown in the picture? Bypass capacitor?
In the *yellow colored box*, did you use the same resistors (Vishay 100k or 84k based on the generation) that was used in the *blue box*? If not, could you please tell me what these are?
For my clarification, the location on *(1)* is for SPX17 and the locations on *(2) *and *(3)* are LT3083. Is this right?
Could you share the part number of LT1764? I see different voltage output 1.8v and 2.5v on two different LT1764 model numbers.
I have been gathering the parts and am looking forward to modding it.
Thank you for your generous help!


----------



## b0bb

leondikim said:


> Hi b0bb,
> Thank your for answering my beginner's question. Here are another questions I have:
> 
> In the *red colored box*, what did you connect with a wire shown in the picture? Bypass capacitor?
> ...


1. Connects ground terminal on SPX17 to the DAC's ground.
2. No, keep the stock resistors. The ones in the picture are non standard and not easily obtainable due to part shortages.
3. Yes
4. Not really needed unless you want to use OCXOs, only the military spec version is available at 2.5X the normal price.
https://www.mouser.com/Analog-Devic...s/_/N-5cgac?P=1y9989iZ1yyh4l4Z1z0xww1Z1z0si72


----------



## leondikim

Dear b0bb,
Thank you for your answer. I read again your previous post and found these two resistors you used in the blue box. 

Vishay PTN Tantalum Nitiride 0.1% 10ppm 499 ohm (1206)
Vishay PTN Tantalum Nitiride 0.1% 10ppm 2k ohm (1206)
Do I find the right ones? It looks like they are recently stocked. 
Also, if I don't plan on using OCXOs, I don't have to upgrade from LT1963A to LT1764A? Should I still replace one of the regulators with SPX17? My understanding is that SPX17 supports 3A.


----------



## b0bb

leondikim said:


> Dear b0bb,
> Thank you for your answer. I read again your previous post and found these two resistors you used in the blue box.
> 
> Vishay PTN Tantalum Nitiride 0.1% 10ppm 499 ohm (1206)
> ...


No need to upgrade to LT1764 if you are not using OCXO, those resistors are for the LT1764.

SPX17 is used for DAC 3.3V analog chosen for low noise output.


----------



## leondikim

Thank you! I really appreciate your willingness to help.


----------



## Monolithic (Aug 29, 2021)

Hi b0bb,

I'm trying to straighten out the input side.

I have a Gen2 board using a Pulsar OCXO. The Gen2 board layout/components are slightly different than the Gen1. Below photo is a stock Gen2 layout.

1) In red circles - are these the two caps that are replaced with 10nF caps (LDBCA2100GC5N0)?

2) In yellow circles - are these the two caps that are replaced with 1uF caps (25MU105MA23216)?

3) In green box - is this the input cap to change to 820uF RNL? (the black values on top of the caps indicate change in values 820uF RNLs/100uF RR7s)

4) In violet box - the current Gen2 resistors are red/red/black/gold, 2.2ohm. I believe you replaced these with 5 ohm (VSMP Z-Foil) on Gen1 (Gen1 originals were 3.3ohm). Would you recommend changing these on Gen2 board and, if so, to what value?

5) In orange boxes - is 5A the positive rail voltage adjustment and is 5B the negative rail voltage adjustment?

6) Where is the input inductor located on the board? Any recommended upgrade parts to avoid saturation with the input cap change?

Thanks again.


----------



## Xoverman

leondikim said:


> Thank you for sharing your great work. I have a few questions for you 😁
> 
> 1) I found that two SET pin capacitors are soldered with WIMA capacitors underneath the pcb. After replacing the SET pin capacitors with 1uF film cap, did you solder back the WIMA cap?
> 
> ...


Sorry I'm answering so late, but i'm on vacation in Austria.

1)  No, only *ONE* Rubycon  1µF, 25V, Stacked Film Capacitors  25MU105MA23216  is needed.

3)  I actually ordered the 5V version of the SPX17. Even though 4.1V was actually pre installed at that position 5V works fine for me.
     There is no set PIN resistor or capacitor needed for the SPX17. Just connect the GND pin to GND.
     But I am not very impressed by the SPX17. I'm going to exchange it with a 4x lt3045 on aluminum substrate and *100µF* SET Pin Capacitor and *fast* start up.

I hope this helps


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> Hi b0bb,
> 
> I'm trying to straighten out the input side.
> 
> ...


1. No, that cap is for the LT1763 used on Gen1
2. Yes.
3. Yes
4. You can use 5ohm
5. Yes on Gen1, not expecting this to change for Gen2
6. Mostly obscured, you can see one on the bottom right 820uF


----------



## Monolithic

Hi b0bb,

Thank you!

Is there an easy way, sonically or otherwise, to tell when the inductor over saturates?  Do you happen to know the value of the inductors used in the Gen2?

I've assumed that the other inductor is on the opposite side as in the photo below:


----------



## leondikim

Xoverman said:


> Sorry I'm answering so late, but i'm on vacation in Austria.
> 
> 1)  No, only *ONE* Rubycon  1µF, 25V, Stacked Film Capacitors  25MU105MA23216  is needed.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much!


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> Hi b0bb,
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> ...


It depends what you consider as simple.

Once an inductor saturates it stops behaving as an inductor, this can be seen using an oscilloscope.
There is better filtering at low currents vs high currents and this can alter perception of loud vs soft tracks, the hard part is telling this apart from other causes that produce similar symptoms.

No idea what the Gen2 values are, you could measure it if you can get access to a LCR meter.


----------



## Monolithic

b0bb said:


> It depends what you consider as simple.
> 
> Once an inductor saturates it stops behaving as an inductor, this can be seen using an oscilloscope.
> There is better filtering at low currents vs high currents and this can alter perception of loud vs soft tracks, the hard part is telling this apart from other causes that produce similar symptoms.
> ...



Thanks.  I will take a closer look at the inductors next time I have the dac open.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 17, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> I'm going to exchange it with a 4x lt3045 on aluminum substrate and *100µF* SET Pin Capacitor and *fast* start up.



Saw this one a few months back on Aliexpress, about 70USD. (About 80USD on ebay)
Very expensive (1.5-2X SPX17 cost)
Very very poor construction, solder blobs everywhere.
Very poor layout, traces run right past mounting hole, high risk of accidental mounting damage.
Did not use proper SMD assembly methods, likely hand soldered.

(Chip markings partially rubbed off, perhaps fake or worse, an off spec reject)

I hope you found something better


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Saw this one a few months back on Aliexpress, about 70USD. (About 80USD on ebay)
> Very expensive (1.5-2X SPX17 cost)
> Very very poor construction, solder blobs everywhere.
> Very poor layout, traces run right past mounting hole, high risk of accidental mounting damage.
> ...


I actually ordered those. But I am glad that thay don't look as bad as that one on the picture. I'm going to test it's noise performance before I install it. The other Aliexpress modules I received where no fakes. I think it's very demanding to solder on aluminum substrate.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 18, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> I actually ordered those. But I am glad that thay don't look as bad as that one on the picture. I'm going to test it's noise performance before I install it. The other Aliexpress modules I received where no fakes. I think it's very demanding to solder on aluminum substrate.



With proper SMD techniques the metal substrate is not a problem.
Large value ceramic caps can drop in value if overheated, telltale sign is the solder blobs.

I use 2 hot air heaters, one below and the other above, the whole board is heated.

A SMD oven with a proper timed profile is better, the manufacturer should not have cut corners and done things on the cheap by hand soldering.
The asking price is a considerable premium over the SPX17, I expect much better workmanship.


Post some photos of the ones you received.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 18, 2021)

Below is a board from ldovr.com.
This is a board costing 40USD, and is an acceptable quality of workmanship.
Output capacity just a little too low for the DVDD digital supplies (1.3A), could do ok with the 3.3V AVDD (0.6A)

Components are not floating in a solder blob.
LT manufacturer marking clearly visible.
Proper Tantalum caps for the input filtering, instead of tiny ceramics.


----------



## Monolithic

b0bb said:


> Add resistors, diodes and caps



Hi b0bb,

What does the green Wima capacitor color denote?  I believe that you recommended some MKP2 caps for these positions (MKP2D031501H00JSSD, Post#4070).  Not very familiar with Wima's color coding.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> Hi b0bb,
> 
> What does the green Wima capacitor color denote?  I believe that you recommended some MKP2 caps for these positions (MKP2D031501H00JSSD, Post#4070).  Not very familiar with Wima's color coding.


Green was the older case color for MKP2, current production is red.
Green is old stock.


----------



## Monolithic (Aug 20, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Post a picture, I think yours was 74AC244D, lower current output version of the 74HC244D.
> 74ALVC has higher current output.
> 
> 74ALVC244 has better noise tolerance and better drive capability.
> ...



Hi b0bb,

Do you recommend using a 0.1uF C0G bypass capacitor (e.g., Kemet C0G 0.1uF) anytime we replace the stock SMD caps (in red boxes) with the 820uF RNL caps or just for the replacement LVC244 chips? (e.g., replacing the ISO7640 with the IL 715VE should we use 820RNLs with 0.1C0G?)  Any issue with placing the bypass caps on the bottom of the board (assuming original SMD caps are covering through-holes)?

You only mentioned the 0.1uF bypass caps in conjunction with a discussion that involved noise issues. So, I wasn't sure if you recommend the small bypass cap as a matter of course. Any other board chips besides the isolator chip and the two buffer chips that we should use the 820/0.1 combo?

Thanks.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> Hi b0bb,
> 
> Do you recommend using a 0.1uF C0G bypass capacitor (e.g., Kemet C0G 0.1uF) anytime we replace the stock SMD caps (in red boxes) with the 820uF RNL caps or just for the replacement LVC244 chips? (e.g., replacing the ISO7640 with the IL 715VE should we use 820RNLs with 0.1C0G?)  Any issue with placing the bypass caps on the bottom of the board (assuming original SMD caps are covering through-holes)?
> 
> ...


Optional. LKS already has a ceramic bypass cap installed.
The small ceramic bypass caps should be as close to the supply pins as possible on the same side.


----------



## Xoverman

@b0bb,

do you still use a NUC as a NAA client ?


----------



## b0bb

Xoverman said:


> @b0bb,
> 
> do you still use a NUC as a NAA client ?


Yes


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Yes


Is there anything special I have to watch out for ? I don't have any experience with linux.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 25, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Is there anything special I have to watch out for ? I don't have any experience with linux.


This assumes you have basic computing skills.
Linux will require about 16Gb disk space to install.
NUCs take about 10-12 seconds to start from cold if using a NVME SSD.

1) Get latest Ubuntu 20.04 LTS cloud image. This is the barebone image, no GUI.
https://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/releases/focal/release/ubuntu-20.04-server-cloudimg-amd64.img

2) Make USB boot stick using the above image and boot the computer using the USB stick, must have ethernet connection.

3) Enter the basic info like hostname, IP address or DHCP etc.

4) Skip the additional software components.

5) Install ALSA and wget
_sudo apt-get install alsa_
_sudo apt-get install wget_

6) Get NAA
_ wget https://www.signalyst.eu/bins/naa/linux/focal/networkaudiod_4.1.1-47_amd64.deb_

7) Install NAA
_sudo dpkg -i networkaudiod_4.1.1-47_amd64.deb_


Once you get things running, try the low latency kernel, lower and more consistent latency numbers.
Here is my current NAA config:   _Ubuntu 20.04.3 LTS (GNU/Linux 5.10.53-051053-lowlatency x86_64)_


----------



## Monolithic (Aug 25, 2021)

Hi b0bb,

1) In the below photo of the power supply upgrades, there appears to be a component that was moved to the bottom of the board (yellow box, looks like ends of leads in the two vias). Was this another 0.15uF green Wima? Any other components added/moved to the bottom of the board?

2) With regard to the two blue boxes, the Gen1 uses 100k and the Gen2 uses 84k.  If I use 100k resistors for the Gen2 board, I believe the voltage goes from 4.2 volts to 5.0 volts. Are there any advantages of going to 5volts on the Gen2 board?  What are the disadvantages of going to 5volts on the Gen2 board? Any additional changes needed to the Gen2 board to support 5volts?

Thanks again.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> Hi b0bb,
> 
> 1) In the below photo of the power supply upgrades, there appears to be a component that was moved to the bottom of the board (yellow box, looks like ends of leads in the two vias). Was this another 0.15uF green Wima? Any other components added/moved to the bottom of the board?
> 
> ...


1) Yes, there is a 0.15uF WIMA on the other side
2) If you have Gen2 stick with 4.2V, the boards have different layouts and hence different heat dissipation capacity.
    Gen1s were borderline on the thermal aspect.


----------



## Monolithic (Aug 26, 2021)

Hi b0bb,

1) Did you move the cap at the position indicated by the yellow box to the bottom of the board as well?  This position is not visible in your populated photos.  It appears there may be room restrictions after the big caps are replaced.

2) The availability date of the LT1764AEQ keeps moving farther out.  Besides cost, is there any reason not to use the LT1764AMPQ version?  I noticed that the lower end of the input voltage is 2.8 for the MPQ and 2.7 for the EQ version. I will be using an OCXO.

3) To benefit from the increased current availability of the LT1764A in the Gen2, will I need further downstream changes ?

Thanks for all the information.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> Hi b0bb,
> 
> 1) Did you move the cap at the position indicated by the yellow box to the bottom of the board as well?  This position is not visible in your populated photos.  It appears there may be room restrictions after the big caps are replaced.
> 
> ...


1) The cap is on the underside
2) No
3) Gen2's LT3045 is the bottleneck, its 500mA limit means you will never see the full capability of the LT1764.


----------



## Monolithic (Aug 26, 2021)

b0bb said:


> 1) The cap is on the underside
> 2) No
> 3) Gen2's LT3045 is the bottleneck, its 500mA limit means you will never see the full capability of the LT1764.



Hi b0bb,

Thanks again for the information.

I'm not aware of any LT3045's on the Gen2 board.  Are you referring to the 10 pin chip which I believe is a LT3042 (200mA) marked "LTGSH 7H28 e3"?

The National Semiconductor "L00075B" 12pin regulators right before the DAC chips would appear to be 800mA versions.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> Hi b0bb,
> 
> Thanks again for the information.
> 
> ...


Thats the LT3042, at 200mA, high powered OCXOs are not possible, the Pulsar@120mA is the only one


----------



## Xoverman

Monolithic said:


> Hi b0bb,
> 
> 1) Did you move the cap at the position indicated by the yellow box to the bottom of the board as well?  This position is not visible in your populated photos.  It appears there may be room restrictions after the big caps are replaced.
> 
> ...


Hey Monolithic,
changing the LT1764 to a LT3045 Modul and 22µF SET PIN Cap brings dramatic instrument localisation and bass improvement !
That PS Branch only uses 80mA.


----------



## Monolithic

Xoverman said:


> Hey Monolithic,
> changing the LT1764 to a LT3045 Modul and 22µF SET PIN Cap brings dramatic instrument localisation and bass improvement !
> That PS Branch only uses 80mA.



Hi Xoverman,
I'll take a look.  I missed out on the  military version of the LT1764's. Someone bought out all the remaining stock.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 28, 2021)

Monolithic said:


> Hi Xoverman,
> I'll take a look.  I missed out on the  military version of the LT1764's. Someone bought out all the remaining stock.


That change can also be applied to the existing LT3042 on your board, do that before attempting to desolder the LT1963.
If there are problems it is easily reversible.

Your Pulsar XO has an onboard voltage regulator and it can fail to properly start if the 3.3V supply voltage rises too slowly.

The large 22uF causes the regulator output voltage to rise much slower than normal, it takes about 2.2 seconds  (3x22uFx33k) to stabilize.
Normal regulators take less than 100ms/0.1s

The existing XO regulator on the LKS is not configured for the alternate fast-start mode so there is additional work you will have to do if you go down this path.


----------



## Monolithic (Aug 29, 2021)

Hi b0bb,

Thanks for the Pulsar and XO regulator info.

Looking for recommendations for higher current replacements of the Gen2 inductors.  They appear to be 0805 size 0.390uH (390nH) inductors?

Let me know if these measurements seem reasonable for the circuit. Measurements taken with LCR at 100kHz, 2.5% +5:

Inductor 1: 0.381uH           Inductor 2: 0.412uH
Inductor 3: 0.383uH           Inudctor 4: 0.385uH

Pads are 3.2mm max length (outer edge to outer edge) so 1206/1210 sizes might work as well?

Kemet Unshielded Ferrite Core @ 440mA?


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> Hi b0bb,
> 
> Thanks for the Pulsar and XO regulator info.
> 
> ...


1206 is too big, need some space on the pad to make soldering easier.
440mA is low, use a 1A inductor, keep to the values you measured.
Inductor should be shielded.


----------



## Monolithic (Aug 30, 2021)

b0bb said:


> 1206 is too big, need some space on the pad to make soldering easier.
> 440mA is low, use a 1A inductor, keep to the values you measured.
> Inductor should be shielded.


Most inductors at 1A will be wirewound. Is there a particular core material I should be looking for as well (powdered, ferrite, etc)?

*Edit* - inductance/size/shielded/>1A are fairly limiting regardless of core material which will be most likely be ferrite.  Not a common set of inductor parameters. Height may also be an issue due to the proximity of the capacitors. Still looking...

Closest match so far - Shielded, 10%, 390nH, @840ma, 1008 package, Height may be an issue API Delevan

Murata has an LQM series with 20% and 30% tolerances for shielded 470nH inductors, possible source for values under 400nH with 1.1/1.2/1.3/1.4A ratings in 0805 size


----------



## piaseczek

Monolithic said:


> Inductor 1: 0.381uH Inductor 2: 0.412uH
> Inductor 3: 0.383uH Inudctor 4: 0.385uH



Thanks for measurements, did you measure also the inductor (5) for the clock?


----------



## Monolithic

piaseczek said:


> Thanks for measurements, did you measure also the inductor (5) for the clock?



I have not measured #5 yet. I suspect it will be in the same range (370nH to 410nH or +/-5% of 390nH).


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> Most inductors at 1A will be wirewound. Is there a particular core material I should be looking for as well (powdered, ferrite, etc)?
> 
> *Edit* - inductance/size/shielded/>1A are fairly limiting regardless of core material which will be most likely be ferrite.  Not a common set of inductor parameters. Height may also be an issue due to the proximity of the capacitors. Still looking...
> 
> ...


The 1.1A Murata LQM is fine for the task.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> The 1.1A Murata LQM is fine for the task.



B0bb,
Did you change inductors in your DAC? Did it help with the big 820uF FPCAPs on the input side of the regulators? Thank you.


----------



## ESL57

I bought these, are shielded 470nH:
https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/Murata-Electronics/LQM21PNR47MG0D?qs=Gufeu08L/l1%2BjocillWQvQ==
I have not installed them yet and I cannot speak of their effect, although Xoverman did do interesting tests with inductors. By the way, what brand are the original inductors and what saturation current?


----------



## b0bb (Aug 31, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> Did you change inductors in your DAC? Did it help with the big 820uF FPCAPs on the input side of the regulators? Thank you.


Linking the 820uF and the inductor is incorrect if you are still using the stock LM317.
Inductor saturation is the bottleneck after the LM317 is replaced.

I switched over to the LT3083 *before* adding the 820uF so I never had the issue.
Modern regulators like the LT3083 do not have the LM317 ESR limitation.
(LM317 was designed 40+ years ago)


LM317s performance degrades if presented with ESR is that too low at its output, this was discussed in this thread about 18 months ago.
National Semiconductor published an app note on this.

The 820uF FP-RNL cap ESR is low enough to cause this behavior in the LM317
(@Xoverman got bitten twice by this problem, initially by a conventional 1000uF Low ESR electrolytic and then by the 820uF polymer)

Adding extra inductance in the 5V supply line increases the ESR and makes the issue less stressful for the LM317, that is the "improvement"
The cost is that the 9038s are starved for current, especially the  AVDD supplies with needs a lot of current.
This will limit the performance of the DAC.

When switching to a modern regulator, all the changes to "improve" performance of the LM317 must be removed before doing a baseline to determine performance of the new regulator.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Linking the 820uF and the inductor is incorrect if you are still using the stock LM317.
> Inductor saturation is the bottleneck after the the LM317 is replaced.
> 
> I switched over to the LT3083 *before* adding the 820uF so I never had the issue.
> ...



Bobb,
That is really a great explanation, big thanks for all your effords to share with us all that advanced knowledge. Really appreciated.

But I have one fundamental question: is it worth doing all that digital power supply mods with the crappy LP38798 in place? What do you think b0bb?


----------



## Monolithic

ESL57 said:


> By the way, what brand are the original inductors and what saturation current?


Mine in the Gen2 had no identifying markings.


----------



## b0bb (Aug 31, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> I bought these, are shielded 470nH:
> https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/Murata-Electronics/LQM21PNR47MG0D?qs=Gufeu08L/l1%2BjocillWQvQ==
> I have not installed them yet and I cannot speak of their effect, although Xoverman did do interesting tests with inductors. By the way, what brand are the original inductors and what saturation current?


The DC resistance is quite high around 1ohm, it will get quite warm at full load of 0.6A --> 360mW
The one @Monolithic listed is 8x lower at 0.12 ohm


----------



## Monolithic (Aug 31, 2021)

b0bb said:


> The DC resistance is quite high around 1ohm, it will get quite warm at full load of 0.6A --> 360mW
> The one @Monolithic listed is 8x lower at 0.12 ohm


There are some (DFE Murata, Datasheet) that are less than 0.05 ohms but about 2-3 times the price over the 0.094-0.120 ohm versions.  Is there a point of diminishing returns or should we go for the lowest DCR we can get?


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> There are some (DFE Murata, Datasheet) that are less than 0.05 ohms but about 2-3 times the price over the 0.094-0.120 ohm versions.  Is there a point of diminishing returns or should we go for the lowest DCR we can get?


Point of diminishing returns, 0.12 ohm@600mA is a 72mV voltage drop


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Bobb,
> That is really a great explanation, big thanks for all your effords to share with us all that advanced knowledge. Really appreciated.
> 
> But I have one fundamental question: is it worth doing all that digital power supply mods with the crappy LP38798 in place? What do you think b0bb?


Yes, that is one of the main change LKS made when they rolled out the 3.2k bugfix version of the 004.
I would get rid of the LP38798, I am using the Bellesion SPLV78 outputting 1.3V


----------



## b0bb

Supercap buffer prototype, uses the LTC4425 linear supercap controller, no switched mode controller.
2x15F Eaton TV-series supercap

This setup contains a power sequencing relay, the load runs on normal regulator power while the supercap charges.
Once charging is complete relay cuts over, no long waits for the cap to charge.
Also means no funny power up delay issues.

This setup was created to understand how the LTC4425 functions with the aim of dropping this into the 004.

Currently on the Singxer SU-2 DDC as the power connections are easily accessible.

This board has additional mods
- NVE 711S GMR isolator
- TI TPS 7A20 low noise regulators
- Tantalum polymer supply bypass

Stock SU-2 performance is an embarrassment, barely better than the SU-1
The mods here transformed the box into a worthy SU-6 competitor.
With 705k/768k material its performance exceeds that of the SU-6


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Yes, that is one of the main change LKS made when they rolled out the 3.2k bugfix version of the 004.
> I would get rid of the LP38798, I am using the Bellesion SPLV78 outputting 1.3V


I know that replacing the LP38798 is the best option but I won't be able to do so without distroing the 004. 
I will only conduct easier to do modifications.


----------



## ESL57

b0bb said:


> Supercap buffer prototype, uses the LTC4425 linear supercap controller, no switched mode controller.
> 2x15F Eaton TV-series supercap
> 
> This setup contains a power sequencing relay, the load runs on normal regulator power while the supercap charges.
> ...


B0bb you have a restless soul, you always seek to improve, thank you for sharing your new projects


----------



## leondikim

b0bb said:


> The regulator replacements, starting from left to right
> Belleson SPX17 5V 3A for the primary 5V regulator
> 
> 
> ...


May I ask how you desoldered and removed the heat sinks with voltage regulators? Do you need a special tool to remove them? Any help would be very appreciated!


----------



## b0bb

leondikim said:


> May I ask how you desoldered and removed the heat sinks with voltage regulators? Do you need a special tool to remove them? Any help would be very appreciated!


Hot air wand to heat up the the heatsinks and desolder as normal, this stops the heatsinks sucking up the heat of the desoldering tool.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 1, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> I know that replacing the LP38798 is the best option but I won't be able to do so without distroing the 004.
> I will only conduct easier to do modifications.


If you want to use the 820uF low ESR polymer bypass caps, the LM317s should be replaced by the LT3083s.
The 820uF will improve the transient current delivery capabilty to the chips on the board.


----------



## Monolithic (Sep 2, 2021)

b0bb said:


> This mod explores 2 things
> 1)
> Addresses latest 9038Pro errata from ESS on improving performance for high rate DSD.
> The 1.2V supplies have been upgraded to 1.3V (100mV increase).
> ...





b0bb said:


> Yes, that is one of the main change LKS made when they rolled out the 3.2k bugfix version of the 004.
> I would get rid of the LP38798, I am using the Bellesion SPLV78 outputting 1.3V


@b0bb Great Work!

1) Did Belleson custom make the 1.3v version or did you customize their 1.2v version?
2) How did you mount the heat sinks to the board?
3) Do you have a photo of how you made the electrical connections from the Belleson pins to the pads on the board?
4) Besides changing the 100uF cap to a 47uF cap as shown in the immediate photo above and removing the original regulators, did you make any other modifications for installation?


----------



## b0bb (Sep 3, 2021)

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb Great Work!
> 
> 1) Did Belleson custom make the 1.3v version or did you customize their 1.2v version?
> 2) How did you mount the heat sinks to the board?
> ...


1) Belleson made the custom 1.3V for me, it is available as an option on the ordering page.
2) Stiff wire, using the holes of the output cap, cap moved onto regulator board.
3) See below
4) No other modifications

3rd wire is for input, not shown.
Heatshrink tubing adds extra stiffness, it is left a little loose in the picture.
Final stage shrinkage occurs when it is soldered onto the board


----------



## Monolithic

Great info!  Thank you!


----------



## leondikim

b0bb said:


> 1. Connects ground terminal on SPX17 to the DAC's ground.
> 2. No, keep the stock resistors. The ones in the picture are non standard and not easily obtainable due to part shortages.
> 3. Yes
> 4. Not really needed unless you want to use OCXOs, only the military spec version is available at 2.5X the normal price.
> https://www.mouser.com/Analog-Devic...s/_/N-5cgac?P=1y9989iZ1yyh4l4Z1z0xww1Z1z0si72


Thank you for your contribution on the thread. I couldn’t even start modding 004 without this marvelous thread.
However I have a problem now after replacing voltage regulators. I copied what b0bb recommended Could anyone help how to trouble shoot?

004 doesn’t recognize a digital input (I2S nor optical) after replacing to LT1764, Bellson SPX17 and everything mentioned in the previous posts. The front panel says I2S unlocked, which never happened before I modded digital power supply area. 

Could anyone please help me where to trouble shoot first, such as measuring voltages or resistors? I can post pictures soon once the day gets brighter.


----------



## leondikim (Sep 4, 2021)

b0bb said:


> 1. Connects ground terminal on SPX17 to the DAC's ground.
> 2. No, keep the stock resistors. The ones in the picture are non standard and not easily obtainable due to part shortages.
> 3. Yes
> 4. Not really needed unless you want to use OCXOs, only the military spec version is available at 2.5X the normal price.
> https://www.mouser.com/Analog-Devic...s/_/N-5cgac?P=1y9989iZ1yyh4l4Z1z0xww1Z1z0si72


I've been trouble shooting what has happened wrong (Digital input I2S is not recognized, showing un-lock on the front panel). I didn't connect the ground terminal of SPX17 on the DAC ground as shown on the first picture. b0bb, could you tell me how you connect the wire to the SPX17 ground terminal? Did you solder the both ends of the wire, one at the SPX17 ground terminal and the other on the board? I touched the heat sinks of SPX17 and two LT3083 and LT3080's heat sinks are warm but not the SPX17. My assumption is that SPX17 is not working...

I've read again in the previous posts about the voltage measurements and I measure the voltage on Schottkys, which is close to 9V. Then I measure the amperage, 3A. Is this normal?


----------



## Monolithic (Sep 4, 2021)

@leondikim  Subject to b0bb's approval, below shows the ground path for the SX17 as a yellow line. To make this happen, the ground pin of the SX17 should be soldered at the blue through hole and a wire connection shown in red should be soldered across the capacitor through holes. The rest of the yellow line ground path is an existing trace.


----------



## leondikim (Sep 4, 2021)

Monolithic said:


> @leondikim  Subject to b0bb's approval, below shows the ground path for the SX17 as a yellow line. To make this happen, the ground pin of the SX17 should be soldered at the blue through hole and a wire connection shown in red should be soldered across the capacitor through holes. The rest of the yellow line ground path is an existing trace.


Thank you so much!
I connected the ground path through a wire but it still doesn’t work. 004 doesn’t recognize any digital input. I don’t know what to do…


----------



## Monolithic (Sep 4, 2021)

@leondikim  Assuming you have a Gen2 board, you measured 5volts out for the SX17 and 4.2 volts (using 84k resistors) out for each of the 3083's?

What voltage is being output by the LT1764?

Did you do any other chip work on the board (e.g., I2S resistors, FP bypass caps, line driver swap, etc.)?


----------



## b0bb

leondikim said:


> I've been trouble shooting what has happened wrong (Digital input I2S is not recognized, showing un-lock on the front panel). I didn't connect the ground terminal of SPX17 on the DAC ground as shown on the first picture. b0bb, could you tell me how you connect the wire to the SPX17 ground terminal? Did you solder the both ends of the wire, one at the SPX17 ground terminal and the other on the board? I touched the heat sinks of SPX17 and two LT3083 and LT3080's heat sinks are warm but not the SPX17. My assumption is that SPX17 is not working...
> 
> I've read again in the previous posts about the voltage measurements and I measure the voltage on Schottkys, which is close to 9V. Then I measure the amperage, 3A. Is this normal?


Measure the voltage across these caps and post the results





The SPX17 needs a jumper


----------



## leondikim (Sep 4, 2021)

Monolithic said:


> @leondikim  Assuming you have a Gen2 board, you measured 5volts out for the SX17 and 4.2 volts (using 84k resistors) out for each of the 3083's?
> 
> What voltage is being output by the LT1764?
> 
> Did you do any other chip work on the board (e.g., I2S resistors, FP bypass caps, line driver swap, etc.)?


Thank you for your post! I have a Gen2  board, swapping i2S resistors with Vishay 100 ohms (swapping resistors was working well) before I modded the digital power supply.

Voltage in for LT1764 is 9.72V, voltage out is 1.52V.
SPX17's Voltage-in is 8.16V and V-out voltage is 5.05V. Each 3083's voltage is 4.36V and 4.24V


----------



## leondikim

b0bb said:


> Measure the voltage across these caps and post the results
> 
> 
> 
> The SPX17 needs a jumper


Thank you for your post, b0bb!

From the left, top-right and the bottom right voltage readings:
1.41V
5.05V
4.28V

I connected the same through-hole area with the wire and soldered underneath of the board.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 4, 2021)

leondikim said:


> Thank you for your post! I have a Gen2  board, swapping i2S resistors with Vishay 100 ohms (swapping resistors was working well) before I modded the digital power supply.
> 
> Voltage in for LT1764 is 9.72V, voltage out is 1.52V.
> SPX17 out voltage is 5.05V. Each 3083's voltage is 4.36V and 4.24V


_--> Voltage in for LT1764 is 9.72V, _*voltage out is 1.52V.*

Voltage output should be 5V, your XO is not running therefore no signal lock.
Check that you connected the voltage setting resistors correctly, the placement could have been swapped causing the low output


----------



## leondikim (Sep 4, 2021)

b0bb said:


> _--> Voltage in for LT1764 is 9.72V, _*voltage out is 1.52V.*
> 
> Voltage output should be 5V, your XO is not running therefore no signal lock.
> Check that you connected the voltage setting resistors correctly, the placement could have been swapped causing the low output


YES!!! It works! Thank you soooo much, @b0bb and @Monolithic ! I was not sure which resistor is placed on the top and the bottom. It turned out that a 2k ohm resistor is placed on top and 499 ohm one on the bottom.
Such a relief now that 004 is working.


----------



## b0bb

leondikim said:


> YES!!! It works! Thank you soooo much, @b0bb and @Monolithic ! I was not sure which resistor is placed on the top and the bottom. It turned out that a 2k ohm resistor is placed on top and 499 ohm one on the bottom.
> Such a relief now that 004 is working.


Good.

Try to resist the urge to change things in the next 2.5 weeks, the DAC sonic signature will undergo a lot of changes.

Keep the unit continuously operating for as long as possible.


----------



## leondikim

b0bb said:


> Good.
> 
> Try to resist the urge to change things in the next 2.5 weeks, the DAC sonic signature will undergo a lot of changes.
> 
> Keep the unit continuously operating for as long as possible.


You read my mind  I am tempted to pursue more moddings but I will hold on to it


----------



## piaseczek (Sep 5, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Markup of some of the common mods
> 
> Initial set of modifications:
> [1] XO Crystek CCHD950X Qty: 1
> ...



Bobb,
Could you please update the above list for the Gen 2 model?
Thanks to Xoverman' work we know a lot more about the Gen 2 so probably the list will be longer.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Bobb,
> Could you please update the above list for the Gen 2 model?
> Thanks to Xoverman' work we know a lot more about the Gen 2 so probably the list will be longer.


That is a starter list of mods, it is already quite long.
If you have something specific in mind post the question.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> That is a starter list of mods, it is already quite long.
> If you have something specific in mind post the question.


Bobb,
Regarding the Gen2 I'm thinking about three easy mods:
1. Replacing 20uF ceramic caps near line drivers, iso7640 etc to FPCAPs (6 in total).
2. 25MU 1uF Rubycons for TPS7A47s
3. 22uF X7R noise reduction cap for the clock's LT3042

Do you find it as important as mods listed by you above?


----------



## b0bb (Sep 6, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> Bobb,
> Regarding the Gen2 I'm thinking about three easy mods:
> 1. Replacing 20uF ceramic caps near line drivers, iso7640 etc to FPCAPs (6 in total).
> 2. 25MU 1uF Rubycons for TPS7A47s
> ...


None of the 3 mods you listed, these require additional work/complexities or have dependencies.

1. Low ESR FPCaps will put stress on the LM317 and the regulators have to be replaced to get the full benefit.
2. These are plastic caps and you had mentioned you wanted something easy to solder, these are not easy to solder without melting the plastic.
3. This supply voltage takes up to 20X longer time  to stabilize, you might end up with signal lock issues like @leondikim just went thru. You will have to do the work to determine if can work on your DAC.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> None of the 3 mods you listed, these require additional work/complexities or have dependencies.
> 
> 1. Low ESR FPCaps will put stress on the LM317 and the regulators have to be replaced to get the full benefit.


Thank you b0bb. 
Even smaller values such as 100-330uF would stress the LM317s?


----------



## Xoverman (Sep 7, 2021)

b0bb said:


> None of the 3 mods you listed, these require additional work/complexities or have dependencies.
> 
> 1. Low ESR FPCaps will put stress on the LM317 and the regulators have to be replaced to get the full benefit.
> 2. These are plastic caps and you had mentioned you wanted something easy to solder, these are not easy to solder without melting the plastic.
> 3. This supply voltage takes up to 20X longer time  to stabilize, you might end up with signal lock issues like @leondikim just went thru. You will have to do the work to determine if can work on your DAC.


I did the LT3042 22uF mod on two 004 DAC's now and never had any kind of problem. Together with my singxer su-6 22uF capacitor upgrade I could reduce the PLL settings from 7 to 6 without any problems when going from PCM to DSD and back. Both DAC's are being used every day.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 7, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> I did the LT3042 22uF mod on two 004 DAC's now and never had any kind of problem. Together with my singxer su-6 22uF capacitor upgrade I could reduce the PLL settings from 7 to 6 without any problems when going from PCM to DSD and back. Both DAC's are being used every day.


Post pictures of what you have done for the LT3042 on the LKS motherboard and the steps to make the mod.

The LT3045 from Aliexpress that you installed is what you have pictures posted, I see no pictures of work done  on the LT3042 on the LKS motherboard.

The LT3045 mod requires desoldering the LT1963 on the board.
@piaseczek has made it clear regulator removal is too complicated to attempt.
I think @piaseczek is not the only one in this situation.

This is the only picture I am able to find from you and that cap looks like the stock component on the Gen2


----------



## b0bb (Sep 8, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> Thank you b0bb.
> Even smaller values such as 100-330uF would stress the LM317s?


You can tell the LM317 is under stress if a resistor is added in series with the cap and the sound improves.

Look at the regular electrolytic caps like Panasonic FC and FM, ESR is not as low as the polymer cap, you might get some benefit over stock.

100-330uF  smaller than the values LKS used on the Gen1, the picture with the numbered steps actually show the oirginal FPCaps LKS used in early Gen1 boards.

The negative end of the caps is attached to the ground plane which sucks up a lot of heat.
It would be quite a lot of work to swap out the caps if you using just an ordinary soldering iron.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> You can tell the LM317 is under stress if a resistor is added in series with the cap and the sound improves.
> 
> Look at the regular electrolytic caps like Panasonic FC and FM, ESR is not as low as the polymer cap, you might get some benefit over stock.
> 
> ...


I know it's not cleaned up, but it works fine.


----------



## Xoverman

By the way, these are the 4x LT3045 modules i bought from china.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> You can tell the LM317 is under stress if a resistor is added in series with the cap and the sound improves.
> 
> Look at the regular electrolytic caps like Panasonic FC and FM, ESR is not as low as the polymer cap, you might get some benefit over stock.
> 
> ...



Probably 270uF before and 100uF after the regulators (for the ess9038s and clock) are safe because that values are used in the latest iteration of the 004:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/l-k...van-dammes-double-impact.840938/post-15578690
I know this solution is suboptimal but it could be a good compromise to less skilled in soldering. Of course with other mods you have listed.


----------



## JBP3

Xoverman,

I recall that you used a heat gun to swap out the crystal, but for other work are you using a heat gun or a standard soldering iron? Asking because I do not want to spring for a heat gun for just the few things I plan to do. Thanks


----------



## b0bb (Sep 9, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> I know it's not cleaned up, but it works fine.



@Xoverman  This is not the LKS  004, that regulator is installed on your Singxer SU6.

Did you actually modify the LT3042 based XO regulator on the LKS 004?
The whole point of people asking about modding the onboard LT3042 is so that regulator does not have to be removed.

(SU6 internals below, red rectangle is where @Xoverman changed the regulator)


----------



## MartinWT

Guys, it's been a blast owning and modifying the LKS.  I decided that it wasn't giving me the ultimate sound quality and still has a touch of ESS glare.

I've now bought a Gustard X26 Pro and have to say that it has exceeded my expectations.  It sounds like the best amalgam of the ESS and AKM chipsets, with huge soundstage yet incredible detail.  No need to modify it, either!

I'll be selling the LKS soon.


----------



## piaseczek

MartinWT said:


> Guys, it's been a blast owning and modifying the LKS.  I decided that it wasn't giving me the ultimate sound quality and still has a touch of ESS glare.
> 
> I've now bought a Gustard X26 Pro and have to say that it has exceeded my expectations.  It sounds like the best amalgam of the ESS and AKM chipsets, with huge soundstage yet incredible detail.  No need to modify it, either!
> 
> I'll be selling the LKS soon.



Martin, 
Could you share with us how you have modified your 004?

New Gustard must be great.


----------



## MartinWT

piaseczek said:


> Could you share with us how you have modified your 004?


Most of it is documented in this thread.

Primarily, new shielding around the transformers with Mad Scientist Large Donuts, many replaced capacitors in the PSU and decoupling positions, rectifiers, regulators.  Coherent femtoclock.  Ferrite shielding on the PCB.


----------



## piaseczek

MartinWT said:


> Most of it is documented in this thread.
> 
> Primarily, new shielding around the transformers with Mad Scientist Large Donuts, many replaced capacitors in the PSU and decoupling positions, rectifiers, regulators.  Coherent femtoclock.  Ferrite shielding on the PCB.



Thanks, did you try the wet tantalum mod?


----------



## MartinWT

piaseczek said:


> Thanks, did you try the wet tantalum mod?



No, I replaced the Vcom capacitor with the recommended dry tantalum, which improved bass tightness and extension very nicely.


----------



## Xoverman

JBP3 said:


> Xoverman,
> 
> I recall that you used a heat gun to swap out the crystal, but for other work are you using a heat gun or a standard soldering iron? Asking because I do not want to spring for a heat gun for just the few things I plan to do. Thanks


Hi JBP3, 
I always use a soldering iron, and a desoldering iron


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> The 1.1A Murata LQM is fine for the task.



B0bb,
How many inductors is needed?


----------



## b0bb (Sep 9, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> How many inductors is needed?


4 for the supplies or 5 if you want to do the one on the XO, check with @Monolithic for the part numbers.

The stock parts on the 004 is designed to work within the current delivery capability of the LM317,  the regulator will current limit before the inductor saturates.

The rms/average current thru the DAC regulator is 1.3A, the max for the LM317 is 1.5A,
If load current was a pure sinewave, the peak current 1.84A, the LM317 is in the zone of current limit.
Real loads are much more complicated and the peak to average ratio of the current can be much higher.

I do not think it is worth the effort to swap the stock parts out if you are using the LM317.


----------



## Monolithic

@b0bb  Did you electrically isolate any of the three replacement regulators (LT3083s & Belleson) from the heat sinks?


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> @Xoverman  This is not the LKS  004, that regulator is installed on your Singxer SU6.
> 
> Did you actually modify the LT3042 based XO regulator on the LKS 004?
> The whole point of people asking about modding the onboard LT3042 is so that regulator does not have to be removed.
> ...



OK, I did not have to exchange the XO LT3042 against a LT3045 because my XO dos not require that much power. I just exchanged the SET PIN capacitor to 22µF.
Witch in my opinion is one of the most important mod's there is for the 004.


----------



## Xoverman

Here are some pictures of my PS status at the moment.


----------



## leondikim

@Xoverman, did you swap the location between a 22uF capacitor and the resistor (See the blue color rectangular)? My 004 has a resistor on top and the capacitor on the bottom.


----------



## piaseczek

Leondikim,
In my 004 Gen 2 there is the same orientation as in Xoverman's DAC.


----------



## piaseczek

Monolithic,
Is it the right smd inductor? 

https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/81-LQM21PNR47MC0D


----------



## leondikim

piaseczek said:


> Leondikim,
> In my 004 Gen 2 there is the same orientation as in Xoverman's DAC


Interesting… mine is Gen 2 as well and I wonder why mine has a different orientation.


----------



## piaseczek

leondikim said:


> Interesting… mine is Gen 2 as well and I wonder why mine has a different orientation.


It's a chinese DAC, everything could have happened

Are you impressed with the sound after mods?


----------



## Monolithic (Sep 10, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> Monolithic,
> Is it the right smd inductor?
> 
> https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/81-LQM21PNR47MC0D



Those are the 1.1A @ 120mOhms that I originally listed.

They are 60% the height of the original inductors (0.5mm vs 0.9mm). Also take note that the datasheet states in Section 11.4:
       "_* Avoid a direct contact of the tip of the soldering iron with the product. Such a direct contact may cause cracks in the ceramic body due to thermal shock._"

They also recommend pre-heating @ 150 deg C for one minute before soldering and less than 3 second soldering time.

Without hot air, your best bet would be to clean both pads, add solder to one pad, using a small tip heat the pad with solder at the edge of the pad and bring the inductor into the solder with tweezers, then remove the soldering tip and heat the other pad at the edge as you bring in solder to melt on the second pad, avoiding contact with the inductor.  Solder should not rise above the top edge of the inductor.

I used a pre-heater for the board and hot air.  I did not change the 5th inductor at the OCXO because I use a Pulsar clock that operates within the 200ma current limit. In the future, I may change the secondary regulator out altogether to increase the current available to the clock and would make any auxiliary component changes at that time.

If the low smd chip height is  a concern, an alternative might be the LQM21PHR47NG0D which is 0.9mm height @ 1.3A @ 94mOhms.



leondikim said:


> Interesting… mine is Gen 2 as well and I wonder why mine has a different orientation.



To weigh in on the poll, my Gen2 has the resistor next to the regulator chip. I assume Xoverman swapped the locations to get the cap closer to the regulator.


----------



## leondikim

Yes, definitely! I have tried several dacs (pontus 2, Venus 2, Hugo 2, etc) and this one is so far the best sounding DAC ever. 


piaseczek said:


> It's a chinese DAC, everything could have happened
> 
> Are you impressed with the sound after mods?


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb  Did you electrically isolate any of the three replacement regulators (LT3083s & Belleson) from the heat sinks?


Not needed, LKS originally used live heatsinks.

The heatsinks are marginal for dissipation, I see no reason to add more thermal resistance between it and the regulator.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 10, 2021)

leondikim said:


> Interesting… mine is Gen 2 as well and I wonder why mine has a different orientation.


Don't worry about it, the 2 of them are connected in parallel.
LKS just got sloppy with not following consistent assembly of the DAC.


----------



## Xoverman

leondikim said:


> @Xoverman, did you swap the location between a 22uF capacitor and the resistor (See the blue color rectangular)? My 004 has a resistor on top and the capacitor on the bottom.


No, I didn't. But it is wise to have it as close to the chip as possible.


----------



## Monolithic (Sep 11, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Not needed, LKS originally used live heatsinks.
> 
> The heatsinks are marginal for dissipation, I see no reason to add more thermal resistance between it and the regulator.



@b0bb I might replace the 1.5" heat sinks with 2" heat sinks to add surface area.  I haven't been able to find any good copper equavilents of the aluminum finned heat sinks.

Update:  Looking into this further, increasing the height would essentially wall-in the capacitors and restrict air flow even more in that area. I'll stick with the original heat sinks.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb I might replace the 1.5" heat sinks with 2" heat sinks to add surface area.  I haven't been able to find any good copper equavilents of the aluminum finned heat sinks.
> 
> Update:  Looking into this further, increasing the height would essentially wall-in the capacitors and restrict air flow even more in that area. I'll stick with the original heat sinks.


Taller heatsinks will restrict airflow, the cap supplying the DAC digital section runs warm and needs all the passive airflow it can get.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 11, 2021)

Gen2 owners considering making the cap mod to the LT3042 XO regulator should pay particular attention to avoid the situation below
This is especially the case when using a soldering iron and not hot-air + solder paste.

The solder ridges are close to shorting out the 3.3V output sense, Ground and voltage set pins.
Metallic debris from the DAC's construction can get trapped in the valleys created by the solder "mountain"






Wider view of location


----------



## b0bb

This poorly made regulator is an example of where metal debris can come from.

The solder balls leftover from soldering sticks to the board from the tacky flux used during soldering.

This might appear hard and solid at room temperature but at the operating temperatures of 65-70C of the 004 it softens
Over time these balls can fall off and start rolling about the DAC PCB and get stuck on the pins of the various chips.






Wider view.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> Gen2 owners considering making the cap mod to the LT3042 XO regulator should pay particular attention to avoid the situation below
> This is especially the case when using a soldering iron and not hot-air + solder paste.
> 
> The solder ridges are close to shorting out the 3.3V output sense, Ground and voltage set pins.
> ...



It's just fix


----------



## b0bb (Sep 12, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> It's just fix


Clean up the soldering flux mess, it goes all the way to your XO.
The whole purpose of this work is to add a cap to reduce XO regulator noise.
The mess left here add parasitic capacitance that couples high frequency noise straight to your XO.





The flux obscures inspection of the solder joints on the cap.
Metallized endcaps are showing wrinkles, cap is showing signs of heat damage.
Clean up the left over flux to be sure.

Remove the extra solder hanging off the LT3042.
Replace the cap instead of reflowing of the solder joints. You have applied excess heat too many times.
Solder lumps on the cap is saying you have dry solder joints. This goes noisy over time due to oxidation of the poorly formed joint.

Before:
[1] Pins of the LT3042 are clean.
[2] Metal endcaps show no wrinkles.




After:
[1] LT3042 pins soaked in solder.
[2] Metal endcaps are wrinkled and have started to de-laminate and separate from the body of the cap.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 12, 2021)

@piaseczek , @leondikim  and others,

This is what I was referring to when I mentioned the ground plane removes heat faster that your iron can heat the joint.
This equally applies to wide copper areas carrying power, it is "ground" from the small signal perspective.

Solder around point [2] is lumpy, indicating insufficient heat.
The other side of the cap is not connected to the ground plane  and it behaves as expected.

This cause extra heat to be applied to compensate for the ground plane sinking the heat.
However parts of the board not directly connected to the ground plane will now be overheated.

Around [1] there is too much heat and the pins of the LT3042 is wicking up all the surrounding solder.

One solution is to preheat the board with a hot air wand, for this purpose a cheap tool between 50-100 USD will do a good enough job.

This has the added advantage of reducing the difference in temps across the components during soldering.
Ceramic caps are brittle and can crack if the temp difference is large enough, the cap in the picture is showing early signs of thermal stress.

This XO cap mod is harder than it appears, requiring careful preparation and execution to avoid the end result below.


----------



## leondikim (Sep 12, 2021)

Thank you. What’s is the temperature setting for a heating wand and how long should I apply it onto the area where I will solder?


----------



## b0bb (Sep 12, 2021)

leondikim said:


> Thank you. What’s is the temperature setting for a heating wand and how long should I apply it onto the area where I will solder?


That depends on your tool. On mine I set it to about 700F/370C temp at the nozzle

What is important is the temp on the board, it needs to reach about 400-500F/204-260C at the soldering area.
This is a circle of 4-6in/100-120mm diameter centered on the soldering point.

At 500F, *touching the board will cause burns*, please take precautions to avoid burning yourself.

Heat the *underside* of the board, the ground plane will carry the heat to the component side.
*Keep the wand moving constantly*, staying in one spot too long will burn the board.
Wand should be 2-3 inches away from the board.

A thermocouple is the most accurate.
Less better options are infrared thermometer, or simply watching the solder joints, heat until they start to shimmer


----------



## leondikim

That’s very helpful. Thanks a lot!


----------



## piaseczek

Thanks b0bb!


----------



## piaseczek (Sep 13, 2021)

B0bb,
In my power amplifier ground is connected directly to the PE and unfortunately I have a ground loop with the 004 Gen 2 when using single ended outputs.
Do you think that it is save to desolder those two elements marked in a photo? Ground loop will be gone?


----------



## b0bb (Sep 14, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> In my power amplifier ground is connected directly to the PE and unfortunately I have a ground loop with the 004 Gen 2 when using single ended outputs.
> Do you think that it is save to desolder those two elements marked in a photo? Ground loop will be gone?


You probably need to increase the value of the resistor, do not remove it entirely.
Commercial FM radio stations operate between 88 and 108MHz, these components ground to the chassis shield to stop that RF noise leaking in.

Measure the resistance between the ground pin  on the IEC power inlet and the ground on the RC connector.
If it below 500ohms, increase the value up to 500ohms.

You can temporarily increase the resistance by adding extra resistance on the interconnect cable between the ground on the cable and the ground  on the rca connector.

If the problem does not go away, source is somewhere else.


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> You probably need to increase the value of the resistor, do not remove it entirely.
> Commercial FM radio stations operate between 88 and 108MHz, these components ground to the chassis shield to stop that RF noise leaking in.
> 
> Measure the resistance between the ground pin  on the IEC power inlet and the ground on the RC connector.
> ...


I I have very good experience using a Isolation Transformer. You can then ty the chassis ground to the signal GND


----------



## b0bb (Sep 17, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> I I have very good experience using a Isolation Transformer. You can then ty the chassis ground to the signal GND


Isolation transformer makes a positive difference, joining signal and chassis ground less so.

There is a specific reason why LKS used a signal ground lift resistor.

The DAC generates a lot of noise on the DVDD and AVDD supplies when operating, this noise needs to be routed to ground.
On the 004 there are multiple grounds the main ones being signal ground and chassis/frame ground.

The resistor raises the potential of the signal ground and this causes noise preferentially to flow down chassis ground.

Connecting signal and chassis ground at the DAC will send some of this noise into the downstream components like the power amp.
I do not think this is good as it defeats this noise reduction step LKS built into the 004

You can clearly see baseline noise increased by 10x (20dB) when active (green) in the trace you took sometime back.


----------



## Xoverman (Sep 18, 2021)

B0bb, that's fake news. Read the original post.


----------



## Xoverman (Sep 18, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Last week I seperate the 9038pro Core supply and the linedriver Supply. Now it's easier to see which consumer generates the most noise.
> And its clearly the analog/digital Core that has tremendous transient current demand. All measurements are integrated for a couple of minutes to get good signal to noise.
> 
> Line Driver Supply with and without Pink Noiss
> ...


This is the original post. It's a measurement at the output of the first Core Digital / Analog regulator with and without Pink Noise.


----------



## piaseczek

The newest RNE 1000uF 16V FPCAPS:
https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/RNE1C102MDN1PH?qs=Ajmft%2BTTukHMsXXwm3pJ2Q==


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> That is expected, on Gen2 LKS reduced the voltage input to the 2nd stage to 4V - 4.2V, the TPS7A47 regulator had only 700mV - 900mV to work with.
> *Buffering for transient load current demand non-existent because LKS used the small ceramic caps.*
> 
> This causes 5V line regulation problems which spilled over to the DAC core, the drivers can take up to 200mA


B0bb,
large FPCAPS (and a 3A lt3083) is needed to separate the DAC core from the ICs powered form the TPS7A47, right?


----------



## piaseczek

B0bb,
In the top right corner, near an optical input, there is a place for bigger capacitor, do you have the FPCAP here in your Gen 1 DAC?


----------



## b0bb (Sep 18, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> B0bb, that's fake news. Read the original post.


Not fake, read your own post more carefully.
The quote from your original post is exactly correct.





The transient changes generates the interference that needs to be shunted to ground to avoid causing more problems.
It is a matter of where this goes either to chassis ground or to the signal ground of the power amp.

LKS provided for this option, you removed it.

I think the LKS approach is correct.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> In the top right corner, near an optical input, there is a place for bigger capacitor, do you have the FPCAP here in your Gen 1 DAC?


Gen1's have a FPCap there, TOSLINK only goes up to 96kHz, so FPCap not an absolute requirement


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> large FPCAPS (and a 3A lt3083) is needed to separate the DAC core from the ICs powered form the TPS7A47, right?


FPCAPS provide the buffering capability and the LT3083 supplies enough current to deal with the ultra low ESR of the FPCAPS


----------



## piaseczek

Xoverman said:


> L.K.S Audio MH-DA004 Dual ES9038pro Flagship DAC Gen II  Power Supply



B0bb, 
the "Analog regulator" consumes only 620mA, maybe the lt3015 is a better option than the lt3083 in that place?


----------



## b0bb (Sep 18, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> the "Analog regulator" consumes only 620mA, maybe the lt3015 is a better option than the lt3083 in that place?


ES9038PRO has 2 analog supplies

AVCC is the "Analog Regulator" that is 3.3V, LT3083 is *not* used for this supply
AVDD is the Core Analog at 1.2V, the LT3083 powers this one.

LKS connected AVDD and DVDD (Digital Core) together on the 004, this is the one taking 1.3A, this powers the SDM modulator among other thing.

There are better options than the LT3015, AVCC is the most noise sensitive supply input, it supplies the DAC output current.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> AVDD is the Core Analog at 1.2V, the LT3083 powers this one.
> 
> LKS connected AVDD and DVDD (Digital Core) together on the 004, this is the one taking 1.3A, this powers the SDM modulator among other thing.



There will be a 3A lt3083. That part is easy


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> AVCC is the "Analog Regulator" that is 3.3V, LT3083 is *not* used for this supply





b0bb said:


> There are better options than the LT3015, AVCC is the most noise sensitive supply input, it supplies the DAC output current.



Are there any better "easy to use" options than the lt3015? No expensive, discrete option please.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 18, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> Are there any better "easy to use" options than the lt3015? No expensive, discrete option please.


TPS7A47, it is used on the 004 and a well proven device

LDOVR makes a good board, about 2x the cost of the LT3015
https://www.ldovr.com/product-p/tps7a4700-lm31x.htm

I think it not worth the cost savings of cheaper alternatives and the risk of getting a board made with factory reject or fake parts.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> TPS7A47, it is used on the 004 and a well proven device
> 
> LDOVR makes a good board, about 2x the cost of the LT3015
> https://www.ldovr.com/product-p/tps7a4700-lm31x.htm
> ...



So the 1A TPS7A4700 as a preregulator is a recommended replacement of the 1.5A lm317 in the 2nd Gen 004?


----------



## b0bb (Sep 18, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> So the 1A TPS7A4700 as a preregulator is a recommended replacement of the 1.5A lm317 in the 2nd Gen 004?


Not a general recommendation.
It is a cheap alternative you asked for  to the discrete I used.
Only for AVCC which takes 600mA, not AVDD+DVDD taking 1.3A.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Not a general recommendation.
> It is a cheap alternative you asked for  to the discrete I used.
> Only for AVCC which takes 600mA, not AVDD taking 1.3A.



Undestood. Thank you


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Not a general recommendation.
> It is a cheap alternative you asked for  to the discrete I used.
> Only for AVCC which takes 600mA, not AVDD+DVDD taking 1.3A.



I have compared a ripple rejection for the lt3083 vs lt3081 and the latter is a lot better option if 3A is not necessary.
Is the required resistor value (84k for the Gen 2) the same for the lt3081? Both parts are pins compatible and replaceable?


----------



## b0bb (Sep 19, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> I have compared a ripple rejection for the lt3083 vs lt3081 and the latter is a lot better option if 3A is not necessary.
> Is the required resistor value (84k for the Gen 2) the same for the lt3081? Both parts are pins compatible and replaceable?


Yes, ripple rejection of the LT3081 is better "on-paper"

Ripple rejection is a function of the amount of current going through the regulator for Low dropout regulators.
You are not comparing on a equal basis. 1.5A for the LT3081 and 3A for the LT3083

Keep in mind DAC Core 1.3A is the *average* , if the current were a sinewave, the peak current is about 1.8A, *LT3081 will current limit before this*.
This is the same problem that faces the LM317, not related to  low ESR instability which is a different issue.

Audio is not a sinewave and the peak to average ratio is much higher than the 1.4 ratio of a sinewave.




piaseczek said:


> Is the required resistor value (84k for the Gen 2) the same for the lt3081? Both parts are pins compatible and replaceable?


Read to the end of the datasheets, this is information you can discover by yourself.


----------



## b0bb (Sep 19, 2021)

@piaseczek if you are looking for better ripple rejection, change the  6800uF stock cap.

With the stock 6800uF cap, ripple is 200mV
With 22000uF/16V replacement ripple is 53mV

That is 11.5dB ripple reduction.

At high temps of 60C above, the ripple rejection of the LT3081@100mA gets worse compared to room temp (25C), 81dB -->79dB
LT3083@500mA is much more stable 76.5dB --> 76.25dB
LT3081 was tested at 5X lower current, 100mA is too low for estimating performance at the 1.3A DAC core current demand.

I think you were looking at the wrong part of the datasheet.

You want an "easy" mod, change the filter cap for 11.5dB ripple reduction.

Excitement over the LT3081 is premature, you get at best 2.75dB improvement, if we re-test at the same current output even that small advantage will evaporate.


----------



## piaseczek (Sep 19, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Yes, ripple rejection of the LT3081 is better "on-paper"
> 
> Ripple rejection is a function of the amount of current going through the regulator for Low dropout regulators.
> You are not comparing on a equal basis. 1.5A for the LT3081 and 3A for the LT3083
> ...



B0bb,
I'm not looking for an alternative for the DAC core PSU, there will be the lt3083. 
I do my humble research to find something easy to install for the AVCC (~0.6A), the lt3080 is pin compatible with the lt3083 but it's only 1.1A.

Ripple rejection comparison below (lt3083 & lt3080) - I know it's not fully comparable...


----------



## b0bb (Sep 19, 2021)

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> I'm not looking for an alternative for the DAC core PSU, there will be the lt3083.
> I do my humble research to find something easy to install for the AVCC (~0.6A), the lt3080 is pin compatible with the lt3083 but it's only 1.1A.
> 
> Ripple rejection comparison below (lt3083 & lt3080) - I know it's not fully comparable...


Why limit yourself to the LT3080 for AVCC ?

TPS7A47 performs much better than the LT3080 and it is a straight drop in for the LM317 if you get the LDOVR device.
It has the proper layout and this gets you close to the theoretical datasheet numbers.

Noise on the TPS7A47 is 4uVrms (10Hz - 100kHz).
LT3080 is 40uVrms (10Hz - 100kHz).

PSRR on the TPS7A47 is stable over a much larger frequency range up to 10MHz.
LT3080 is not really effective at this extreme end.






LKS made the right choice to use this regultor on the 004.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Read to the end of the datasheets, this is information you can discover by yourself.



I have read, resistor value to setup lt3081 to 4.2V is the same as for the lt3083. 84k.
Resistor for the lt3080 is much larger, 420k.


----------



## piaseczek

b0bb said:


> Why limit yourself to the LT3080 for AVCC ?



Because it's a better option than the lm317 and opens up a way to low ESR capacitor after the regulator. It's also available at mouser and the most important factor - I know how to replace it

Everything in life is a compromise b0bb I'm not a genius of electronics like you.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> Everything in life is a compromise b0bb I'm not a genius of electronics like you.


Underhanded compliments like this is not a good thing if you are seeking help


----------



## Xoverman

For thos who are interested


----------



## piaseczek

Xoverman said:


> For thos who are interested



What new have you discovered?


----------



## Xoverman

piaseczek said:


> What new have you discovered?


I thought it might be a good idea to give analog/digital core power supply a more direct path, so that noise doesn't travel so much through the shared ground plain. And it turned out to be a good idea. It also gave me the opportunity to use a physically bigger inductor.


----------



## Monolithic

b0bb said:


> Yes, that is one of the main change LKS made when they rolled out the 3.2k bugfix version of the 004.
> I would get rid of the LP38798, I am using the Bellesion SPLV78 outputting 1.3V



@b0bb - What series FP cap did you use for the 47uf? RNS or RNU?  Is the 68uf RR7 too much output capacitance for the Belleson regulator?  

Thanks.


----------



## b0bb (Oct 3, 2021)

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb - What series FP cap did you use for the 47uf? RNS or RNU?  Is the 68uf RR7 too much output capacitance for the Belleson regulator?
> 
> Thanks.


These are RNU which was what I had on-hand. 68uF RR7 looks reasonable, as long as it fits in the space.


----------



## piaseczek

Monolithic said:


> Those are the 1.1A @ 120mOhms that I originally listed.
> 
> They are 60% the height of the original inductors (0.5mm vs 0.9mm). Also take note that the datasheet states in Section 11.4:
> "_* Avoid a direct contact of the tip of the soldering iron with the product. Such a direct contact may cause cracks in the ceramic body due to thermal shock._"
> ...



Monolithic,
Have you replaced the inductors in your DAC? Has it improved the sound or is it just a minor upgrade?


----------



## XVampireX

I'll be selling my MH-DA004 soon enough, if anyone is interested


----------



## Monolithic

piaseczek said:


> Monolithic,
> Have you replaced the inductors in your DAC? Has it improved the sound or is it just a minor upgrade?



I replaced the inductors but didn't do an A/B comparison prior to upgrading the power supply section.


----------



## piaseczek

B0bb,
I have a problem with the screw on the right side of a photo, do you know if it could be disconnected?


----------



## piaseczek

Monolithic said:


> I replaced the inductors but didn't do an A/B comparison prior to upgrading the power supply section.



The inductors are in my opinion the most difficult part to replace with the soldering iron. I will leave it as it is and only replace LM317s to LDOs + new FPCAPS. I hope it will be a good compromise.


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> I have a problem with the screw on the right side of a photo, do you know if it could be disconnected?


Tha screw ties your DAC's groundplane to the chassis, replace the screw.
Not sure what type of thread LKS used, bring it to a hardware store to get the right replacement.


----------



## piaseczek (Oct 7, 2021)

B0bb,
Will there be any problem if I replace all four nichicon KGs in the digital PSUs to the same value 22k uF 25V CDE 380LXs?
https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail...80LX223M025J052?qs=Yar5Zvc6MhVVTvnR4qZ%2BCw==

I'm guessing that clock will be happy with higher capacitance in the PSU (and higher PSRR).


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> B0bb,
> Will there be any problem if I replace all four nichicon KGs in the digital PSUs to the same value 22k uF 25V CDE 380LXs?
> https://pl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cornell-Dubilier-CDE/380LX223M025J052?qs=Yar5Zvc6MhVVTvnR4qZ%2BCw==
> 
> I'm guessing that clock will be happy with higher capacitance in the PSU (and higher PSRR).


You will have to check if the caps can fit in the space


----------



## piaseczek (Oct 8, 2021)

b0bb said:


> You will have to check if the caps can fit in the space



The caps will fit but is such o high capacitance (and 6.1A) recommended for the low power clock?


----------



## b0bb

piaseczek said:


> The caps will fit but is such o high capacitance (and 6.1A) recommended for the low power clock?


You mentioned PSRR earlier, find out how a bigger cap changes this and you will have the answer.
At some point you have to just try and see for yourself on your DAC.


----------



## dcguy73

I can't believe this thread has 286 pages going. In retrospect, the original LKS MA-DA004 DAC (without mods) was a terrible, nails-on-a-chalkboard Delta-Sigma horror machine. When I finally sold mine and got something else, I realized how bad it was. For the price and the weight, it was incredibly disappointing. I was not willing to open it up and start soldering to "fix" the sound.


----------



## b0bb (Oct 9, 2021)

The next step in upgrading the 004 is optimizing the 768kHz performance.
004's I/V handling 768kHz has amplitude overshoot issues.

Very troublesome at high frequencies as it can create unwanted energy spikes at the output.
This extra acoustic energy will reflect off walls, the insides of the headphone, causing  unwanted interference with the next audio wavefront  coming out of the DAC.

Interference will both reinforce and cancel parts of the audio spectrum, causing very uneven frequency response in the room/ headphones.

I use square waves to provide the impulse and to observe the response.

Here is the stock output.






This is correctable.
After correction, amplitude overshoot is mostly gone.





Close up of the corrected response.
This is an earlier version, the current compensation I am using has a steeper rise time.




Close up of uncorrected transient response.


----------



## b0bb (Oct 9, 2021)

The compensation scheme plays around with the 2 caps below.

Horizontal cap controls the rising edge/overshoot.
Original used 330pF which produced the slower risetime.
Reducing it to 220pF improves the risetime but without running into overshoot.
This is close to the 200pF LKS used on the Gen2 004.

Vertical cap affects the falling edge/undershoot.
Value is 680pF

Note: Gen1 board, someone with Gen2 will need to do the same measurement to see if the comp values apply


----------



## b0bb

Another component of the 768k improvement.

Replaced the DS90LV032A LVDS receiver used on HDMI I2S input. This one is from Analog Devices ADN4666

Better jitter performance
Better ESD tolerance

More details here
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/singxer-su-6.902272/post-16596562


----------



## Xoverman

b0bb said:


> The next step in upgrading the 004 is optimizing the 768kHz performance.
> 004's I/V handling 768kHz has amplitude overshoot issues.
> 
> Very troublesome at high frequencies as it can create unwanted energy spikes at the output.
> ...


What makes you shur that it's not the scope prob?


----------



## b0bb (Oct 9, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> What makes you shur that it's not the scope prob?


The purpose of the exercise is to document the transient response, shame on those not setting up the probe correctly.

Since you asked, this is the rather boring picture of the scope and its probe on the calibration terminal.
This is a real hardware square wave generator, much cleaner than the DAC is ever capable of.
Probe is slightly overdamped, zero overshoot.


----------



## Xoverman (Oct 10, 2021)

b0bb said:


> The purpose of the exercise is to document the transient response, shame on those not setting up the probe correctly.
> 
> Since you asked, this is the rather boring picture of the scope and its probe on the calibration terminal.
> This is a real hardware square wave generator, much cleaner than the DAC is ever capable of.
> Probe is slightly overdamped, zero overshoot.


Great job b0bb,
Are you using a 1Khz square wave file or REW? Amplitude? lks oversampling filter?
And what front end? Singxer or amanero? HQPLAYER?


----------



## ESL57

dcguy73 said:


> I can't believe this thread has 286 pages going. In retrospect, the original LKS MA-DA004 DAC (without mods) was a terrible, nails-on-a-chalkboard Delta-Sigma horror machine. When I finally sold mine and got something else, I realized how bad it was. For the price and the weight, it was incredibly disappointing. I was not willing to open it up and start soldering to "fix" the sound.


I can assure you with knowledge and with many comparisons of dacs in the current market, that a well-tuned LKS004, is at the level $ 3,000 to $ 4,000 dacs, another thing is that you like dacs of renowned brands and designs not "made in china", otherwise this tuning will squeeze the most that two ES9038PROs can offer. Of course, if you like the sound of two TDA1540s this dac will not be for you.


----------



## dcguy73 (Oct 10, 2021)

ESL57 said:


> I can assure you with knowledge and with many comparisons of dacs in the current market, that a well-tuned LKS004, is at the level $ 3,000 to $ 4,000 dacs, another thing is that you like dacs of renowned brands and designs not "made in china", otherwise this tuning will squeeze the most that two ES9038PROs can offer. Of course, if you like the sound of two TDA1540s this dac will not be for you.



"Well-tuned" being the operative word here. The default LKS MH-DA004 DAC needs to be "tuned" and "fixed" and I'm not up for that. It had just been "tuned" to fix overheating issues by the manufacturer when I purchased it years ago. I'm certain that if you invest enough money and time into almost any modern DAC, it could sound great, but I'm not looking for fixer-uppers when shopping for DACs. If that's what you're into, that's great, but the $1.5K LKS DA004 should at least come with a warning label that it's not-quite-ready-for-prime-time at its purchase price.

I have no grudge against ESS DACs. Any DAC chip can be made to sound great or terrible depending on its implementation. I'd happily put my *default *dual-TDA1540 DAC against the *default* dual-ES9038PRO LKS DAC and see which sounds better.

As for my experience with comparing the LKS to other DACs I've owned, I bought the Holo Audio Spring KTE v1 from Kitsune HiFi before selling the LKS MH-DA004. Tim from Kitsune asked me to write a review on his website about what I told him in confidence, that in a 1-on-1 comparison, the Holo was leagues smoother and more musical-sounding than the etched and digital sound of the MH-DA004. Because I was afraid of crapping on the LKS' resale value, I never said a bad word about the LKS DAC publicly.

Now that I no longer own the LKS, I'm free to say what I like about it, and you're free to ignore my opinion.

But if you're a first-time buyer reading this thread, think twice before you go with LKS. I pity the poor n00b who spends hard-earned money on this DAC without thoroughly reading this thread and realizing what he/she is in for in terms of modding necessities. I know I was misled by it.


----------



## b0bb (Oct 11, 2021)

Xoverman said:


> Great job b0bb,
> Are you using a 1Khz square wave file or REW? Amplitude? lks oversampling filter?
> And what front end? Singxer or amanero? HQPLAYER?


1kHz square wave 0.95 of full scale.
768kHz sampling rate

I use Audacity to create a wav mono audio file.

004 uses the Slow linear phase filter.

Singxer SU2 used to supply the I2S feed.
Amanero max sampling rate is 384kHz

HQPlayer for the playback, linear phase filter.


----------



## b0bb

Lower sampling rates should not be used for generating the square wave, the settings I used are

768k sampling
Linear phase filter for playback

This generates the lowest sampling artifacts.


----------



## b0bb

48kHz sampling, linear phase.
There is  pronounced ringing.

Note ringing starts before the falling edge, this it the pre-ringing that is characteristic of linear phase.




96kHz, ringing is much reduced.


----------



## b0bb

Sampling artifacts are still present at 768kHz, amplitude is much reduced.


----------



## b0bb

48kHz minimum phase.
No pre-ringing.
Post ringing in very pronounced.

I avoid minimum phase filters due to the amplitude overshoot problems.
Soundquality wise this is responsible for an ear-bleeding experience, very bright, details are etched





48kHz linear phase has less ringing on the 004.


----------



## Monolithic

@b0bb - A few questions regarding upgrading to 1.3v on the Gen2 board:

1) Any reason to leave the C1/R1, C2/R2 pairs on the board after removing the regulators? I'm assuming C1/C2 are charge pump caps and R1/R2 are feedback/set resistors

2) For the input wire, did you run a flexible wire from the C3/C4 smd caps (yellow dots) to the Belleson regulators?  I didn't know if two points of through hole support were enough to handle the heatsinks.  Was thinking of possibly using a third stiff wire to the input cap through hole as well, but it appears to be a fair distance away (red dots indicate through hole mounting points). (C5/C6 along with output E-caps are moved onboard with respective Belleson regulators)

Thanks.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb - A few questions regarding upgrading to 1.3v on the Gen2 board:
> 
> 1) Any reason to leave the C1/R1, C2/R2 pairs on the board after removing the regulators? I'm assuming C1/C2 are charge pump caps and R1/R2 are feedback/set resistors
> 
> ...



1) Is a matter of preference, if it does get in the way you could remove it.

2) The distance  between the regulator chip is much wider on the Gen2 board, extra stiffening support makes sense.


----------



## Monolithic

b0bb said:


> 1) Is a matter of preference, if it does get in the way you could remove it.
> 
> 2) The distance  between the regulator chip is much wider on the Gen2 board, extra stiffening support makes sense.



@b0bb - Would you recommend moving the C3/C4 input bypass smd caps onto the Belleson board at the input or would it just be of marginal benefit?

Thanks again.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb - Would you recommend moving the C3/C4 input bypass smd caps onto the Belleson board at the input or would it just be of marginal benefit?
> 
> Thanks again.


Keep the ceramic caps as close to the polymer cap as possible.
I soldered the original bypass parts across the output terminals.


----------



## Monolithic

@b0bb - How did you connect the input on the Gen1 board?


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb - How did you connect the input on the Gen1 board?


Solder a stiff wire to the +ve terminal on the input ceramic bypass cap


----------



## b0bb

Minor mod for the RCA output.
33nF 160V 1% Vishay MKP1837 Extended foil polypropylene.

PP caps improve the imaging and detail of the 004 but makes the sound somewhat cold, extended foil caps help address this shortcoming.
Alternative is polystyrene but it can be hard to handle, low melting point makes it difficult to solder.

Grey square caps in the picture





The MKP1837 is much larger than the PHE426s I was using earlier.
Bigger cap required wire bending to get it onto the board.







MKP1837 is still available but is being phased out, it replacement is the MKP385, Vishay's version of the PHE426.


----------



## piaseczek (Oct 18, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Minor mod for the RCA output.
> 33nF 160V 1% Vishay MKP1837 Extended foil polypropylene.



Thanks b0bb, I'd like to confirm that these 4 x 33nF are not to be replaced for XLR users?


----------



## piaseczek (Oct 24, 2021)

For those still using the LM317s in the digital PSU possible mods are described below.

Calculation of the minimal ESR for the given value of the output capacitor:
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/t/3pin_reg_notes3.html
2200uF 16V Panasonic FRs in my 004 have to small ESR (18mOhm) than the recommended (~50mOhm).

The zener diode trick to lower the noise of the LM317:
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/t/3pin_reg_notes1.html

"Knowing this we can obtain even better performance out of the humble LM317 and the like, and here's where we go off the beaten track: The trick is to retain C2 but replace R2 with something like a zener diode. This brings lower noise all the way down to DC - because the dynamic impedance of the zener will much lower than the required value of R2 to achieve an equivalent output voltage. Effectively this stops the pairs of curves on the ripple rejection and output impedance graphs above converging again at low frequencies; you can picture this as mimicking the action of a truly enormous 'perfect' cap at C4 without the cost. Using a zener diode of voltage Vz then the final output voltage will of course be (Vz+1.25)volts."


----------



## piaseczek

Guys, my biggest fear becomes a reality. I have a problem with desoldering the components from the PCB. 
To desolder I'm using the soldering station with a regulated temperature, high quality flux and copper wick. 

The method - I apply flux, then through the copper wick I hot the solder with the tip. 
Unfortunately hole is not clear and I can't remove the component.
Maybe the temperature is too low, what temperature should I set?

Thanks.


----------



## piaseczek

Ps. I have desoldered the amanero PSU board without any problems.


----------



## fmzip

piaseczek said:


> Guys, my biggest fear becomes a reality. I have a problem with desoldering the components from the PCB.
> To desolder I'm using the soldering station with a regulated temperature, high quality flux and copper wick.
> 
> The method - I apply flux, then through the copper wick I hot the solder with the tip.
> ...


I can tell you that depending on what area of the board you are working on, desoldering will be very challenging. I work at at a company that assembles PCB's and we have the very best reworking equipment and trained staff. You really need a solder station with vacuum, even saw the operator use a heat gun to heat the PCB up a bit as the internal ground plane makes things very challenging to work with.


----------



## fmzip

Hey all, haven't been around in awhile, been LOVING the DAC with all the mods! Really do not want to tinker anymore, it sounds that good. Unfortunately, my aging Anthem D2V preamp might be on the way out.  My preamp has a balanced input which I am using with the LKS DAC. I am running fully balanced, amp, preamp and DAC.

Should I be overly concerned in purchasing a preamp that doesn't have a balanced input? Or am I getting a bit nuts over nothing?


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Should I be overly concerned in purchasing a preamp that doesn't have a balanced input? Or am I getting a bit nuts over nothing?


Run it balanced, RCA out on the 004 uses an active filter, balanced is passive.

There is about 20% amplitude overshoot on the RCA outs on the step response tests, this makes for the trashy high frequency glare some people complain about. 

PS finally got around to modifying the SU2 to use 768kHz sampling, added a supercap controller to it. SU6 is now on the shelf.


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> You really need a solder station with vacuum, even saw the operator use a heat gun to heat the PCB up a bit as the internal ground plane makes things very challenging to work with.



Yup exactly.
This has been mentioned more than a few times now.


----------



## fmzip

fmzip said:


> Hey all, haven't been around in awhile, been LOVING the DAC with all the mods! Really do not want to tinker anymore, it sounds that good. Unfortunately, my aging Anthem D2V preamp might be on the way out.  My preamp has a balanced input which I am using with the LKS DAC. I am running fully balanced, amp, preamp and DAC.
> 
> Should I be overly concerned in purchasing a preamp that doesn't have a balanced input? Or am I getting a bit nuts over nothing?





b0bb said:


> Run it balanced, RCA out on the 004 uses an active filter, balanced is passive.
> 
> There is about 20% amplitude overshoot on the RCA outs on the step response tests, this makes for the trashy high frequency glare some people complain about.
> 
> PS finally got around to modifying the SU2 to use 768kHz sampling, added a supercap controller to it. SU6 is now on the shelf.


Nice B0bb! Did you make a post somewhere detailing this mod? I assume I can do this with my Kitsune SU2 as well? Always costing me $$$ every time I login


----------



## b0bb

fmzip said:


> Nice B0bb! Did you make a post somewhere detailing this mod? I assume I can do this with my Kitsune SU2 as well? Always costing me $$$ every time I login


SU-2 thread.

This is the supercap + controller.

I also changed the isolators to low noise GMR ones and replaced all the second stage regulators.
Will try to get those posted over the weekend.


----------



## piaseczek

I'm after my humble mod. Few years back I've replaced IV resistors to the foil ones. 
Now I have changed:
1. Vcom capacitors to hermetically sealed solid tantalums
2. 22uF capacitor for the LT3042 aka Xoverman's mod
3. PSU amanero upgrade according to b0bb's instructions. 

To cut the long story short DAC sounds much better, the changes are substantial. 
Sound is "bigger" and "faster", bass is more powerful but without being boomy, soundstage is also better - instruments are easier to localize. For now I don't hear any drawbacks of my mod but midrange is slighly recessed. 

Big thanks for this thread.


----------



## Xoverman

piaseczek said:


> I'm after my humble mod. Few years back I've replaced IV resistors to the foil ones.
> Now I have changed:
> 1. Vcom capacitors to hermetically sealed solid tantalums
> 2. 22uF capacitor for the LT3042 aka Xoverman's mod
> ...


Midrange muddynes comes from vibration reaching the crystal oscillators.
If you still have the transformers inside the DAC, attach the DAC to the biggest stone panel you can find. Stick it as tight to the store as possible. This way the vibration energy of the transformers have to move the DAC and the stone. Set the stone on sylomer dampening feet to isolat the stone from the flore vibrations. You're going to be suppressed.


----------



## piaseczek

Xoverman said:


> Midrange muddynes comes from vibration reaching the crystal oscillators.
> If you still have the transformers inside the DAC, attach the DAC to the biggest stone panel you can find. Stick it as tight to the store as possible. This way the vibration energy of the transformers have to move the DAC and the stone. Set the stone on sylomer dampening feet to isolat the stone from the flore vibrations. You're going to be suppressed.



Maybe thick rubber (used in industry, vibroisolation) between the enclosure and the toroids will do the job?

https://www.wibroizolacjapolska.pl/...oizolatory-wibroizolacyjne-elementy-gumowe-G/


----------



## b0bb (Oct 31, 2021)

The rubber tiles below are designed to reduce propagation of sound waves, scattering vibrational energy in the sonic frequency range.







I use a simplified version.
This fits into the "audiophile" superexotic category

Extremely hard to find, very  occasionally shows up on Fleabay
Available in quantity but only in very difficult circumstances
Designed for another even more exotic purpose


----------



## piaseczek

PCB photos of the 005:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fou...04-the-musetec-da005-dac.953177/post-16640665


----------



## Monolithic

@b0bb, Did you change back to the copper heat sinks for the 1.3 regulators or is this an older photo?



b0bb said:


> Minor mod for the RCA output.
> 33nF 160V 1% Vishay MKP1837 Extended foil polypropylene.


----------



## JBP3

piaseczek said:


> PCB photos of the 005:
> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fou...04-the-musetec-da005-dac.953177/post-16640665



Thanks for the link plaseczek! If anyone is interested, on an earlier post October 6, post #356, page 24, there is a review by DBB1 comparing the DA005 with the Holo May. It is well done by someone immersed in attendance at real musical venues, how about that! I enjoyed it anyway, even though I am not a fan particularly of his musical selections.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb, Did you change back to the copper heat sinks for the 1.3 regulators or is this an older photo?


That is old photo, I have had this mod in for 6+ months.
Copper heatsinks are quite heavy in the larger size I am now using, this places additional stress on the wire mounting.


----------



## b0bb

Long overdue attention to the analog supply.

TL1431 reference, upside is dynamic impedance is 50% lower than the stock TL431 part, down side is higher noise output.

The reference is bypassed by a noise reduction cap, so the downside has less impact.
Lower dynamic impedance means a lot better bass from the 004






Mounted on the DAC


----------



## b0bb

Vishay metal foil trimmer to set voltage, much lower voltage drift compared to the stock cermet part.


----------



## leondikim

b0bb said:


> Long overdue attention to the analog supply.
> 
> TL1431 reference, upside is dynamic impedance is 50% lower than the stock TL431 part, down side is higher noise output.
> 
> ...


Thank you for another great mod. May I ask you how and where you attached the bypass cap for the reference?


----------



## b0bb

leondikim said:


> Thank you for another great mod. May I ask you how and where you attached the bypass cap for the reference?


It is already there, the cap with the copper foil, might look different on yours.


----------



## Xoverman

In my fight agenst vibration I made a nother experiment, and was quite surprised that it had such a noticeable impact. 
I coupled all output capacitors with a wooden stick glued on to them.


----------



## Xoverman

A nother experiment that really had more impact than expected, was dampening the power supply capacitors with Blu-Tack.
I made both modifications without moving the DAC from its physical place. Didn't touch the cable's. Everything stayed in place. 
That way an A / B comparison was very easy an reliable.


----------



## b0bb

The wet tantalum caps will benefit from vibration damping
Hot-melt glue used has the consistency of rubber at the DAC operating temps
Heatshrink band acts like a rubber band around the cap at high temps.

Both methods take a lot of vibration energy out of the cap


----------



## b0bb

Another example, the heatshrink bands help reduce the vibration at the base of the cap.


----------



## Monolithic

@b0bb, Did you electrically isolate the 1.3v regulators from the heatsinks?   Do you happen to know the width (mm) of the heatsinks you used?

Thanks again.


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb, Did you electrically isolate the 1.3v regulators from the heatsinks?   Do you happen to know the width (mm) of the heatsinks you used?
> 
> Thanks again.




I used Kapton tape, these are standard TO-220 spacing for heatsinks.


----------



## rettib2001

I’ve had the LKS 004 since the beginning of 2018.

It’s served me well and is still going strong.

I’m at a bit of a crossroads and despite not being the most active of posters, I have followed this thread from the beginning  and have grown to respect the opinions voiced here.

I need a new dac. The LKS will remain in use but I have a second room where I’m finding myself doing more and more listening (speakers).

I suppose my two questions are, for those of you who have had the LKS and moved on what did you buy?

And for those who still have it, what dac on the market today in a similar price range (up to $2000) would you buy?

*Im not buying a second LKS because I want to either do away with upsampling to dsd entirely or for it to at least not be restricted by quirks in the input method: atypical i2s pin layout restricting DDC options, persistent niggles with amanero USB.

Thanks in advance for any input!


----------



## leondikim (Dec 3, 2021)

b0bb said:


> Long overdue attention to the analog supply.
> 
> TL1431 reference, upside is dynamic impedance is 50% lower than the stock TL431 part, down side is higher noise output.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your great information. I did change four of them to LT1431 and DAC seems to work fine with the improved sound. However, a red light next to heat sinks (I circled them with yellow color) does not turn on anymore on both sides. I think I messed up the PCB holes as I desoldered the older ones. Could you help to diagnose and how to fix it?
One assumption I have is to replace with the LT1431 S8 package because I see SMD trace pads where LT1431 is installed (I highlighted with green color).

Any help would be really appreciated!


----------



## b0bb

leondikim said:


> Thank you for sharing your great information. I did change four of them to LT1431 and DAC seems to work fine with the improved sound. However, a red light next to heat sinks (I circled them with yellow color) does not turn on anymore on both sides. I think I messed up the PCB holes as I desoldered the older ones. Could you help to diagnose and how to fix it?
> One assumption I have is to replace with the LT1431 S8 package because I see SMD trace pads where LT1431 is installed (I highlighted with green color).
> 
> Any help would be really appreciated!


Check the output voltage, should be between 15-16 V for the +ve and -ve rails.

Use the test points shown in the picture below.


----------



## leondikim

b0bb said:


> Check the output voltage, should be between 15-16 V for the +ve and -ve rails.
> 
> Use the test points shown in the picture below.


On the left where it was supposed to +15v, I measured 0.95v and on the right I measured 0.29v. That’s not good… 😞


----------



## leondikim (Dec 3, 2021)

Another unusual behavior I discovered. When I touched two of three legs with a probe, a red light turned on! FYI the voltage measured between these two legs is 22v


----------



## b0bb

leondikim said:


> Another unusual behavior I discovered. When I touched two of three legs with a probe, a red light turned on! FYI the voltage measured between these two legs is 22v


Did the output return to ±15V, if it did you might have a dry solder join somewhere.


----------



## leondikim

b0bb said:


> Did the output return to ±15V, if it did you might have a dry solder join somewhere.


I’ll try and get back you soon! Thank you!


----------



## leondikim

@b0bb it doesn’t reach up to +-15v but close to 10v when I touch that area with a probe. Also the heatsinks get warmed up as I am connect two legs with a probe


----------



## Monolithic (Dec 4, 2021)

@leondikim - If I'm understanding correctly, you changed components A and B (circled in yellow) of the photo below to LT1431.  I believe you also changed components C and D (circled in white) of the photo below to LT1431. Can you post a photo of the markings on the original components C and D?


----------



## leondikim (Dec 4, 2021)

Monolithic said:


> @leondikim - If I'm understanding correctly, you changed components A and B (circled in yellow) of the photo below to LT1431.  I believe you also changed components C and D (circled in white) of the photo below to LT1431. Can you post a photo of the markings on the original components C and D?


@Monolithic, I replaced A,B, C, and D with four LT1431 each in the same orientation as the previous ones were installed.


----------



## b0bb (Dec 4, 2021)

leondikim said:


> @Monolithic, I replaced A,B, C, and D with four LT1431 each in the same orientation as the previous ones were installed.


Parts C and D are not LT1431, put the original part back in.


----------



## leondikim

Oops.. okay. Then what are these?


----------



## b0bb

leondikim said:


> Oops.. okay. Then what are these?


Part of the LED based voltage reference for stage-1 of the regulator, this most likely why the LED  went out.


----------



## leondikim

It works after putting back the original parts on C and D! Thank you so much @b0bb and @Monolithic !!


----------



## Gilberto 62

Good afternoon guys. Please, a short and simple question: how do you recommend connecting a cd player to the dac, by coaxial or by optical ...? I guess by optical but I prefer your advice. Thanks...


----------



## Monolithic

@b0bb 

* Does the LT1963A/LT1764A (A) only supply power to the XO regulator (B)?  

* What supplies power to the LT1963A/LT1764A?

Thanks again.


----------



## Xoverman

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb
> 
> * Does the LT1963A/LT1764A (A) only supply power to the XO regulator (B)?
> 
> ...



Yes 
Y & S


----------



## b0bb (Dec 11, 2021)

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb
> 
> * Does the LT1963A/LT1764A (A) only supply power to the XO regulator (B)?





Monolithic said:


> * What supplies power to the LT1963A/LT1764A?


What @Xoverman said


----------



## b0bb (Dec 11, 2021)

Gilberto 62 said:


> Good afternoon guys. Please, a short and simple question: how do you recommend connecting a cd player to the dac, by coaxial or by optical ...? I guess by optical but I prefer your advice. Thanks...


Use coax if your CD player was made before 1996, make sure to use proper 75ohm coax cable.
LKS paid more attention to coax than optical on the 004.

Before 1996, optical spdif was proprietary to Toshiba, top end units used optical transmitters from Toshiba, performance is ok if your player used the Toshiba optical interconnect known as TOSLINK.
Cheap CD players copied this with variable degrees of success, I usually avoid using optical spdif on old players if output module not made by Toshiba.

DVD came to the market in 1996, this pushed manufacturers to standardize and fix optical spdif problems from past years and improve the jitter performance.
TOSLINK was one of Toshiba's contributions to the DVD standard.


----------



## Monolithic

@b0bb Just for clarification, the LT3042 (200ma) [regulator "B"] supplies 3.3V to the XO (120ma for Pulsar XO) and supplies 3.3v to the VCCA of each of the 9038s (3ma x 2)?


----------



## b0bb

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb Just for clarification, the LT3042 (200ma) [regulator "B"] supplies 3.3V to the XO (120ma for Pulsar XO) and supplies 3.3v to the VCCA of each of the 9038s (3ma x 2)?


Yes.

Keep in mind VCCA is one of the first supplies that must reach a stable state for the 9038 to reset properly if you are thinking about modding this regulator.


----------



## Monolithic

b0bb said:


> Yes.
> 
> Keep in mind VCCA is one of the first supplies that must reach a stable state for the 9038 to reset properly if you are thinking about modding this regulator.


 
@b0bb -   I'm assuming that cset cap value is at the lower end (0.47uF) with a start up time of under 50ms (3.3v instead of 5V).

LT3042 Start-Up Time 

VOUT(NOM) = 5V, ILOAD = 200mA, CSET = 0.47μF, VIN = 6V, VPGFB = 6V    - 55ms
VOUT(NOM) = 5V, ILOAD = 200mA, CSET = 4.7μF, VIN = 6V, VPGFB = 6V      - 550ms
VOUT(NOM) = 5V, ILOAD = 200mA, CSET = 4.7μF, VIN = 6V, RPG1 = 50kΩ,   - 10ms  
[RPG2 = 700kΩ (with Fast Start-Up to 90% of VOUT)]


----------



## b0bb (Dec 11, 2021)

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb -   I'm assuming that cset cap value is at the lower end (0.47uF) with a start up time of under 50ms (3.3v instead of 5V).
> 
> LT3042 Start-Up Time
> 
> ...


Yes, this is why LKS used the lower values, quite sloppy of LKS as the 3042 has provision for fast start.

550ms delay with 4.7uF w/o fast-start is terrible.


----------



## Gilberto 62

Thank you very much, b0bb, for your answer...


----------



## leondikim

Monolithic said:


> @b0bb - A few questions regarding upgrading to 1.3v on the Gen2 board:
> 
> 1) Any reason to leave the C1/R1, C2/R2 pairs on the board after removing the regulators? I'm assuming C1/C2 are charge pump caps and R1/R2 are feedback/set resistors
> 
> ...


Hi, @Monolithic, Have you succeed to upgrade to 1.3v on Gen2?


----------



## Monolithic (Dec 27, 2021)

@leondikim  Yes, I have been running at 1.3v using the Belleson regulators. I think I've got a couple of months on the modifications. Listening to DSD512 exclusively.

As b0bb has mentioned previously, it's not a beginner's mod.  I used a preheater, temp probes, and hot air to get the regulator chips to release from the board.


----------



## Xoverman

Monolithic said:


> @leondikim  Yes, I have been running at 1.3v using the Belleson regulators. I think I've got a couple of months on the modifications. Listening to DSD512 exclusively.
> 
> As b0bb has mentioned previously, it's not a beginner's mod.  I used a preheater, temp probes, and hot air to get the regulator chips to release from the board.


Hello monolithic,  may you share the sonic differences you experienced with us?


----------



## Monolithic

@Xoverman  I cannot attest solely to the sonic differences of only the 1.3v regs versus the 1.2v regs.  I made the voltage change to support moving from DSD256 to DSD512 and have made other changes to the front end to support the change in format.  DSD512 presents a larger soundstage and more low-level detail using the modified dac.


----------



## mrjayviper

Is there a list generic (i.e. inexpensive) mod that can be done on this device?

I'm thinking capacitor changes and maybe diodes and resistors?


----------



## b0bb

mrjayviper said:


> Is there a list generic (i.e. inexpensive) mod that can be done on this device?
> 
> I'm thinking capacitor changes and maybe diodes and resistors?


Look here


----------



## mrjayviper

b0bb said:


> Look here


what's number 6 in the mods? (can't see it in the pic)


----------



## mrjayviper

just a question again, any reason to use Vishay caps? I thought the Wima caps are an inexpensive but good cap. Thanks again


----------



## b0bb (Aug 4, 2022)

mrjayviper said:


> just a question again, any reason to use Vishay caps? I thought the Wima caps are an inexpensive but good cap. Thanks again


The caps are Vishay Roederstein, current production version of the classic Roederstein film on foil 1% tolerance polyproplyene cap of the 80's and 90's used by Krell, Pass and others.
Wima does not make an equivalent cap today.

ES9038Pro is very unforgiving if you choose to use substandard parts.
If you want to experiment with something cheaper you will have to do the work to bring the 9038 under control within the limitations of your component choices.


----------



## XVampireX

If anyone ever cares I've got the DAC for sale for a while now.
Probably still is a good DAC for new comers


----------



## iFi audio

XVampireX said:


> If anyone ever cares I've got the DAC for sale for a while now.
> Probably still is a good DAC for new comers



If I may ask, that's your next target after the DAC listed for sale? Are you after anything specific? Thanks!


----------



## XVampireX

iFi audio said:


> If I may ask, that's your next target after the DAC listed for sale? Are you after anything specific? Thanks!


I mean, I'm just selling it to get more gear, my next purchase is probably the Sus 
I'm guessing you see my current DAC in my Signature... I've got a few more things up my sleeve for sale I'll post soon, just wondering why no one is interested in the LKS since there's this huge thread and the quality is still good for the DAC.


----------



## iFi audio

XVampireX said:


> my next purchase is probably the Sus



That's a lovely plan to execute! 

I kepp my fingers crossed that you'll make it


----------



## DBX1

XVampireX said:


> I mean, I'm just selling it to get more gear, my next purchase is probably the Sus
> I'm guessing you see my current DAC in my Signature... I've got a few more things up my sleeve for sale I'll post soon, just wondering why no one is interested in the LKS since there's this huge thread and the quality is still good for the DAC.


I have not followed this thread for a while but I am getting back interested into the mod history of the LKS DAC.  Not sure if you modded your LKS, but if you did and are happy with the results, why sell this DAC since it has a near 300 thread interest and assuming you are pleased with the results ?

Even in stock form, this DAC sounds pretty amazing.


----------



## DBX1

mrjayviper said:


> Is there a list generic (i.e. inexpensive) mod that can be done on this device?
> 
> I'm thinking capacitor changes and maybe diodes and resistors?


Is there a comprehensive list of the mods that proved to be successful that has been done so far to this DAC ?  Perhaps the list can be broken down section-by-section which would explain which set of mods upgrade or impact what part of the DAC, IE: Power Supply, USB, 9038 chips, etc.

Thanks.


----------



## XVampireX

DBX1 said:


> I have not followed this thread for a while but I am getting back interested into the mod history of the LKS DAC.  Not sure if you modded your LKS, but if you did and are happy with the results, why sell this DAC since it has a near 300 thread interest and assuming you are pleased with the results ?
> 
> Even in stock form, this DAC sounds pretty amazing.


I did not mod mine, so it's an open canvas for whoever wants to try their modding skills.
Selling mine in favour of Susvara or whatever headphones will win me on my TOTL chain.


----------



## DBX1 (Jan 4, 2023)

b0bb said:


> 100uF 10V solid tantalum bead cap for Vcom bypass.
> 
> The vcom reference circuit is very low current, conventional aluminum (Al) electrolytics leakage is quite high and not temperature stable.
> 
> ...


@b0bb and @Xoverman

My board layout is different from B0bbs which I've been following his mods.  I may have a second generation LKS board compared to what you have. I am interested in adding the 100uf 10v yellow caps you added to my board and replace my blue caps with the wima red caps you have surrounded around your gold caps (see where you marked 5 in the next post - which contains a copy of the modifications you did to your board).  Would this be a recommended upgrade if I have a different generation board?  My caps are black caps with a brown stripe on it.  I am enclosing pics of my board to compare if this helps.

Thanks much.


----------



## DBX1 (Jan 4, 2023)

b0bb said:


> Markup of some of the common mods
> 
> Initial set of modifications:
> [1] XO Crystek CCHD950X Qty: 1
> ...


@b0bb and @Xoverman   -

Would you recommend all these mods as well for later versions of the LKS board - based on the board I have ?

Are there any changes need to be made to the mods based on the board with what I have when compared to the Gen 1 boards that B0bb did his modifications on ?

I've attached photos to show my board layout.

Unless otherwise unadvised with the board I have - my plan of attack is to modify the following, following in B0bbs footsteps:
in sections 2, 5, 7, which includes the smaller caps by section 2 - my 3 smaller caps are Nichicon Caps at 2200uF.  I think the larger is 6600uF (cant verify at the moment).

B0bb replaced the Mundorf 4400uf caps with Mundorf 10000uf caps.   Would it be ok to go with Nichicon 10000uf caps as a substitute or
Stick with the Mundorf recommendation?
After that, I plan to upgrade the regulators coupled to the heatsinks by the caps in section 2 based on using the replacement regulators that B0bb did with his mods.  And then the crystal.  I need to re-read on what B0bb and others did on the crystal and the frequency that they used with their board.

Question is should I use TCXO or OCXO for the LKS?

And then placing two 100uF 10V solid tantalum bead cap for Vcom bypass - which what B0bb did (see my post just above).  As I re-read B0bbs post,  this is in section 3 of his board.

These are just the "easy parts" to upgrade.

Once those upgrades are complete, I am sure there will be additional footsteps to follow for the ultimate LKS-004.

Does this sound like some worthy upgrades to start with, or ill advised with the photos I enclosed with my board ?

Thanks much.


----------



## b0bb (Saturday at 2:30 PM)

@DBX1
- Consider using the wet tantalums instead of the solid ones, my Gen1 did not have the large Vcom bypass, you may need to experiment to see which is better. Wet tantalums improves the low bass performance  to a degree neither the solid tantalum or large electrolytic can match. Downside is high cost.

-TCXOs improve temp stability, not really relevant if you run  the DAC with the case closed, stick with the Crystek CCHD 950-X. If you go the OCXO route, the existing regulators on the DAC board cannot supply enough power, you will need to build an external very low noise supply. OCXO are like the wet tantalum option above, very high performance but is expensive.

-Mundorf is an upgrade LKS made for analog regulator of Gen2 boards, Gen1 boards used something else. Nichicons are an alternative but not better. LKS used them in the previous LKS003.
I am currently using the Supertech 2T which I find to provide the bass slam without the muddyness that the other two options above brings along. Someone else previously described the large Mundorf as making the music appear "slower"
https://www.partsconnexion.com/SUPTEC-88239.html.

-The digital part of the DAC power supply, right hand cluster in your photos, upgraded using high current cap from CDE, Kemet makes equivalents.
The current draw is quite high and the replacement caps have lower loss resulting in a much cooler running cap , this leads to a longer operational life.


----------



## DBX1

b0bb said:


> @DBX1
> - Consider using the wet tantalums instead of the solid ones, my Gen1 did not have the large Vcom bypass, you may need to experiment to see which is better. Wet tantalums improves the low bass performance  to a degree neither the solid tantalum or large electrolytic can match. Downside is high cost.
> 
> -TCXOs improve temp stability, not really relevant if you run  the DAC with the case closed, stick with the Crystek CCHD 950-X. If you go the OCXO route, the existing regulators on the DAC board cannot supply enough power, you will need to build an external very low noise supply. OCXO are like the wet tantalum option above, very high performance but is expensive.
> ...


B0bb -

Thanks much for the j fo.   I did see that you used the wet tantalums for section 3 of your mods which you did and described as incredible Bass slam.  Each wet tantalum is $50 at muser,  but I will go with this upgrade after I do the first few upgrades in sections 2, 5 and 7.

Thanks much for the advice on the crystal and the caps in the digital section.  I will upgrade it as per your instructions.  

After those upgrades are complete,  I plan to upgrade the voltage regulators as you did in the caps area.  A bit expensive,  but not as much as the wet tantalum caps. 

After that,  we'll see what other upgrades may be needed.  Maybe the journey for the LKS will end with these items.


----------



## DBX1 (Sunday at 11:05 AM)

b0bb said:


> @DBX1
> - Consider using the wet tantalums instead of the solid ones, my Gen1 did not have the large Vcom bypass, you may need to experiment to see which is better. Wet tantalums improves the low bass performance  to a degree neither the solid tantalum or large electrolytic can match. Downside is high cost.
> 
> -TCXOs improve temp stability, not really relevant if you run  the DAC with the case closed, stick with the Crystek CCHD 950-X. If you go the OCXO route, the existing regulators on the DAC board cannot supply enough power, you will need to build an external very low noise supply. OCXO are like the wet tantalum option above, very high performance but is expensive.
> ...


@b0bb -

Thanks much for the info.   I did see that you used the wet tantalums for section 3 of your mods which you did and described as incredible Bass slam.  Each wet tantalum is $50 at mouser,  but I will go with this upgrade after I do the first few upgrades in sections 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7, unless it is not recommended to do.

Do you have any advice on what caps I would use for section 5 for the caps on my board ?
You had went with a mix of polyester caps,  blue caps with Vushay at 33nf,  the black is a mystery to me on what caps and values you used.  I could not find those values.
I see for the red caps in the remaining sections, you went with the Wimas.  Do you remember what values you used for those caps?

The caps you recommended from parts connexion shows 50v values.   Should I be using 63v caps or is it a limitation with the case where I should use 50v?

Thanks so much B0bb.

Thanks much for the advice on the crystal and the caps in the digital section.  I will upgrade it as per your instructions.

After those upgrades are complete,  I plan to upgrade the voltage regulators as you did in the caps area.  A bit expensive,  but not as much as the wet tantalum caps.

After that,  we'll see what other upgrades may be needed.  Maybe the journey for the LKS will end with these items.


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## b0bb (Sunday at 2:11 PM)

The black and blue caps are polypropylene, Mouser sells both types, the catalog picture for the black caps  still shows the old blue cases.
The red  Wimas are lower quality metallized polyester film used to bypass the powersupply electrolytics.

You should check your Gen2 board for the exact values, LKS may have changed them.

Each side of the analog supply is 15V, incoming DC before the regulator is 30V-35V, 50V for the filter cap is adequate.
63V is physically too big to go onto the board without modifying the case.
When in doubt measure the voltage across the terminals of your existing cap.


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## DBX1 (Sunday at 3:58 PM)

@b0bb

Thanks much for your input!  Hopefully these are the last questions before I get into modding my board.  I have parts on the way from Mouser and will be placing an order for the caps from Parts Connexion as you suggest.

So regardless of the version of board I have compared to yours - is it still advisable to start the upgrade on my board in sections 2, 3, 5, 7

Replace the nichicon caps in the digital section with high current cme, or kemmet (I know how to replace the cap value and voltage value with something higher, but not sure what you mean by current as you suggest, will look at their product list later to see if they have a high current line as you mention)

Section 4 find out the specifications as you mentioned above (I asked jinbo about the type of cap used,  voltage,  and value of those caps) and replace with either polypropelyne or metal film wimas & vishay caps that you used.

If it is suggested to do this, my plan after the above set of upgrades are complete, Phase 2 of upgrades are to tackle sections 1 & 6 (underneath the board from Texas components) to match the specifications of these parts to what you done with your board.

After those items are complete,  phase 3 is to go after upgrading the voltage regulators with the parts you used for your voltage regulators.  Will this require a hot-air gun to fully complete these steps?  I am equipped with a temperature controlled soldering iron from Weller with a Copper wick to suck out the solder at this time which I believe should do the job for the through-hole components, and isypropyl alcolhol to remove the flux residue.  (Also equipped with a multi-meter and an lcr multi-meter)

But I am concerned about the components that are soldered to the board.  Particularly the regulators. I am not sure if my soldering iron with wick will heat up those components reliably to remove those components without risking damage to the board.  Andif I have to remove/replace smds,  I read that it's best to use a heat gun instead of the traditional solder as the solder needs to get underneath to the pad for best results - as opposed to just having the solder melt to the component and the exposed pad.

Thanks for your valued input B0bb.


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## DBX1 (Sunday at 3:56 PM)

People - I can't stress this enough...  Remove the residue post soldering.  This could form virtual solder bridges between components.  I had a situation where I replaced caps and resistors in a preamp.  A lot of them.  This was an all-cap all-resistor rebuild on a 30+ year old preamp.  All was fine with the replacement components.  Except that has a headphone Jack where I was picking up an imbalance in left and right volume outputs.  The values replacing components all checked out and the replacement components are in their rightful place.  All solder joints looked fine. But I did not clean up after my work done in the preamp.  A good couple of hours cleaning all boards I worked on with isypropyl alcohol (even on boards I did not work on) and letting it dry after a few hours removed the output imbalance of the headphone output.  Problem solved. Who knows what other unknown problems I solved after that clean-up.  Make sure to have lots of cleaning towels handy.  You will need them when performing a cap/resistor rebuild.


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