# Is it worth hundreds of dollars for upgraded headphone cables?



## armyowalgreens

I ask this because I've gotten two very distinct answers.
   
  1. It's worth every penny.
   
  2. It's a complete rip-off. 
   
  The difference between AKG-702s and AKG-702s with ALO cable is 140 dollars.


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## Permagrin

Quote:


armyowalgreens said:


> I ask this because I've gotten two very distinct answers.
> 
> 1. It's worth every penny.
> 
> ...


 

 I think, unfortunately, you will have to decide for yourself, as like you said, there are two sides of the fence on this. I have no personal experience A/Bing cables yet (until my LCD-2s and ALO cable show up later this week ) but cables do have an effect on the sound. Whether the "improvement" in sound with a third-party cable is worth getting is up to your pocketbook, imo.
   
  I hope that helps.


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## krmathis

Well, that only you can tell.
  Regardless what other members around here say only you have your set of ears and wallet. What is worth it to some may not be worth it to others, either because they hear too small of an improvement and/or because of the price tag.


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## Uncle Erik

No.
   
  The debate will kick off shortly, but keep in mind that the controversy has been going for a good 30 years.  Brilliant minds, extensive tests, top-shelf test gear, and much else have never turned up a thing.
   
  Cable "differences" are real in the same sense that tarot card readings, astrology and healing crystals are real.
   
  If you believe in the paranormal, you might find cables to "work" for you.
   
  Also keep in mind that not everyone hears a difference - you might spend a lot of money to discover that you're one of those who doesn't hear the claimed results.  I didn't when I bought aftermarket cables.
   
  Further, if you want to try different cables, you can DIY them for about 10% of the price.  There's no need to pay $140 when you can do the same for $10-$20.


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## lasraik

Should be an interesting thread to get different opinions.  I'm on the fence with this and trying to decide whether to do cables on the cheap, DIY or expensive stuff.


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## kboe

I would trust your ears over any others. By this I mean try them and decide for yourself.  I believe they are worth every penny, Uncle Erik not so much, but we still both love our music to death.  And so now to prevent the matter and anti-matter that Uncle Erik and I are to each other, I take my leave.


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## Happy Camper

Have them give you the original cable too. If you can't tell a difference, send it back. If they won't give you a return, don't bother.


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## kboe

Quote: 





happy camper said:


> Have them give you the original cable too. If you can't tell a difference, send it back. If they won't give you a return, don't bother.


 

 I thought about suggesting that also, Ken should be willing to work with you on that, give him a call or shoot him an e-mail.


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## Prog Rock Man

The evidence that such cables work is purely personal experience by people who have tried them. Some have also tried them and found that they make no difference. So straight away it is hit and miss. Then the science of electrical measurements and trials between cables strongly suggests that there is no difference in the actual cables themselves that is audible. So the most likely conclusion is that such cables only work if the user wants them to work and it is all in the mind.
   
  So they can and do work, but is for a reason many reject and even hate the suggestion of.


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## joe2

seems like a simple double-blind test could settle the issue


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## kboe

(_Holds and bites his tongue_) ARGHHHHHHHHH!  Wow that hurt.  But better you see.


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## lasraik

I'm all about the personal experience, but theres really no place I can think of to try the expensive cables versus the basic cable you'd pick up anywhere.


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## maverickronin

#2 is the option supported by objective evidence.  Many companies make rather bold claims about the cables they sell but they've never managed to come up with anything to support them other than subjective impressions.


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## scootermafia

I think this exact thread ran its course 2 weeks ago.  Scroll back a few pages for "answers".  On head-fi you'll hear the whole range of opinion from "buying cables = death" to "can't live without it".  The poll that was taken in one of the threads seemed tipped slightly more towards the cable-tolerant side, but the cable cynics on head-fi are pretty hardcore.


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## tim3320070

$140 buys a lot of music. You want a wire or 20+ used CD's from Amazon?


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## 9pintube

I'm 4 them!! and believe my ears.....................but those same ears have tricked me in "Blind Test" before.........I do believe you should DIY, as Uncle Erik suggested....  Also as scootermifia said this topic has two camps and in my opinion has been "Beat to DEATH"........I say it's your Money, your Gear and EARS, so do as you wish!!


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## beeman458

*armyowalgreens wrote:*
   
*I ask this because I've gotten two very distinct answers.*
   
*1. It's worth every penny.*
   
*2. It's a complete rip-off.*
   
  In the simple, I spent some $380.00 bucks on my headphone cables and I got's no complaints.  A hundred and twenty-five bucks of that was for physical appearance stuff, sheathing and splitter.  Dang but I do love the look of my custom headphone cables.
   
  In a question such as this, there's only one thing that counts, your listening pleasure.  Me?  I'm a very happy camper.
   
  A word to the wise, if you're new to the listening game, you may or may not pick up a difference as cables aren't a night and day difference because they dwell in the world of nuances.  My experience, the sound stage was wider.  Cords on a piano opened up.  The single strike of a string, had a longer decay.  The tap of a cymbal both opened up and had a longer decay.  But, over all, the improvement only works on about one percent of the overall listening experience.  The point, is one percent worth it to you?  It is to me.  And here's the rub, your mind may not be in tune with what you're listening to, so you won't take benefit of that one percent.  No, it's not a rip off but yes, you might not pickup on the difference.
   
  A question to ponder before adding cables to the mix, the gear the cables are being connected to.  If the gear you have is low-fi, the gear isn't necessarily going be sensitive enough to pass forward the differences.  A couple of questions, what gear are you using for playback and are you running your songs through your computer and if so, what format are you ripping in?  You need to be ripping in WAV; 1.41 Mbps.
   





   
*The difference between AKG-702s and AKG-702s with ALO cable is 140 dollars. *
   
  Oh, and a suggestion, Sennheiser HD650's  and a couple hundred hours of use to break them in or to loosen them up.


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## Thaddy

This question always gets a thousand different answers, but the only way to figure it out is to try them yourself. 
   
  I have no problem spending $200 for a headphone cable (and I have), but then again I also have about $600 worth of tubes, so it's all relative.  In my experience, I've found expensive interconnects and cables to only provide a VERY small increase in sound quality.


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## BIG POPPA

Trust your ears, your wallet will follow.


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## KingStyles

Quote: 





> Trust your ears, your wallet will follow.


 
  Be careful, the ears can be a very expensive organ to make happy.


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## TheSatelliteGuy

You bet your life it can cost a lot of money. A cable change is only one very small step in walking the path of getting more out of you music experience.  I wouldn't even begin to tell you my journey but what I listen to today is so far ahead of the days that I listened to stock cans and new unaltered cds and untweaked or non Belted components and cables. If you do not know how to tweak a cd or what the term Belting is, you are on the first mile of a 10 mile run. That is not a bad thing at all. It is just a place on the path of music bliss. Then when you are done with those improvements you can create a better listening space by adding Shumann Frequency Generators to quiet the background. Then when you buy a Cleaver Little Clock you will be blasted that there is still that mush more music sound improvement left in your equiptment. Then there is more. Stop and enjoy the sounds you got. The journey is endless. Some want to take the journey and look forward to the new awarenesses. For most being happy with what you got is enough joy for you and if it put a smile on you face and a rhythm in your step, enjoy.


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## darknessproz

Does it make a difference? Some say yes some say no. Opinions vary.
   
  Is it WORTH it? I'd say NO.


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## majkel

Below is a picture of a cable that cost me around $30 in parts plus my labor. This makes sense as it improves over the stock HD600 or HD650 cable. The improvement is so obvious that I wouldn't bother to pay $500 even if it's better as the expected progress would be a small step as it is always small regarding the cables but sometimes significant in terms of presentation change.


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## Prog Rock Man

My DIY cable for the AKG K702, which made no difference whatsoever, but was fun and very satisfying to make (so I could kid myself that it sounds better, but it doesn't really!)


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## Mad Max

I agree with majkel.
  Cables make too little of a difference most of the time.  Sometimes it is just the right change for the overall presentation.
   
  Easiest thing: just make your own. =]
  Fun, too.


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## haloxt

I am of the opinion that expensive cables are fine, but not if they are priced way above the cost of parts and labor, and not when they are made and sold following the premise that cables can technically improve the sound. Minimal/no cable should be theoretically superior in pretty much all ways except vibration and emf/rfi isolation. I personally prefer ~$50-150 aftermarket headphone cables, $20-50 for DIY. For digital, IC, speaker, and power cables, there are a lot more reasonably priced and mass produced cables aimed at audiophiles, they can have excellent build quality but only 4N purity usually, and I would spend ~$15-50 for these cables.
   
  There's certainly some cable companies that price things to take advantage of customers' ignorance, and the reason they can get away with it is because people would rather engage in pro/anti arguments and seldom try to scientifically/empirically find out how cables may actually affect sound, or find out the specifications of typical/cheaper cables (many of which are now 4N), or the actual cost and labor of exotic aftermarket cables. They would rather condemn or justify. If things continue this way, anticablers will never get real objective data (heh, as if they would know it if they saw it), and pro-cablers will never get reasonably priced exotic cables.


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## aimlink

I've discovered through my own experience with moderately expensive aftermarket cables that you are slamming headlong into the virtual wall of truly diminishing returns.  I have heard differences with fancy cables, but do admit to the possibility that they aren't really there and would love to blind test myself to make a final conclusion.
   
  I'd recommend trying them only if you can very easily afford them and if you've otherwise maxed out on your other gear in that you have no plans to upgrade for the foreseeable future.  Additionally, I personally am not at all comfortable recommending the purchasing of a cable that costs the same or near the same as any of your gear (dac, amp or cans).  Not when the benefit is so unclear.  
   
  Most who are in the business of purchasing MontBlanc or Cross Pens, Rolex watches and so on don't exactly go running around, claiming that their fancy watches and pens give better time and offer more legible ink or writing experience than much cheaper options.  OTOH, there are some who actually feel that they get better time with those watches, and it's the same way with cables.  Some will claim superiority on technical grounds.  I did but have my serious doubts about it now.


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## yeemanz

I upgraded my stock AKG702 cable for a DHC one. I found that the lows came out a bit better with the DHC cable (shorter cable length 1m vs 3m? maybe). Regardless, I'm happy with the upgrade. Spent about 150~ for the cable.


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## bergman2

if you like the sound of the particular cans that's the next logical upgrade ... as far the specifics of the cables, that is another matter entirely -- all cables are not created equally ... dark cans sometimes respond better to silver and bright cans to copper .... if you can swing it just go balanced, that makes the biggest cable diff by far


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## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





bergman2 said:


> if you like the sound of the particular cans that's the next logical upgrade ... as far the specifics of the cables, that is another matter entirely -- all cables are not created equally ... dark cans sometimes respond better to silver and bright cans to copper .... if you can swing it just go balanced, that makes the biggest cable diff by far


 

 Logical? Sorry, but I disagree with that as the logical approach would be check the validity of the cable makers claims and then walk away. All cables are not created equally, but all cables have the same effect on sound quality. To make claims about dark cans and silver you should really have examples or proof, or your claim is bogus.


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## scootermafia

I would agree that going balanced is the single biggest upgrade you can get.  It is fun to use an adapter once you have a balanced amp to go back and forth between XLR and 1/4" - power hungry headphones really benefit from getting twice the power on a balanced system.  Beyond the extra juice you're getting a little cleaner sound from the common-mode noise rejection you get from the separate grounds vs. sharing a ground.  When I'm testing out a 1/4" cable vs. a balanced cable I always have to cringe and turn the volume up a few notches with the SE cable.


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## haloxt

The balanced amp you're using has increased volume in balanced headphone output, and also when receiving balanced input from audio-gd's balanced dac's.


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## bergman2

in the realm of bogus claims --- " ... all cables have the same effect on sound quality." --- I bow to you


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## InnerSpace

I recabled my HD800s and can report a) the effect was easily measurable; and b) the new cable transformed my listening pleasure.
   
  In terms of measurement - the new cable is five feet longer than the old cable.
   
  In terms of enjoyment - I can now listen from my favorite sofa.
   
  Seriously, after more than 40 years in this hobby, I know for sure that cables sound different - even though I really don't want them to.  I'm pretty much a plug-and-play type of guy, and I always hope against hope I can just leave things alone.  But there is a difference.  It's tiny though - as many posters here have said, it's the last tiny micro-percentage.
   
  IME engineers are impatient because just inventing and manufacturing domestic replay systems is such a massive, towering technical achievement that they're reluctant to see the trees for the forest.
   
  Also IME, cable enthusiasts do themselves no favors by their exaggerations - "night and day, massive change ... " which leads one to expect such huge, obvious differences to be readily detectable under DB conditions, which they aren't, because they're not massive, huge changes in the first place.
   
  So, IME, it makes sense to get well-made aftermarket items if they have durability, physical utility, and a sense of sonic improvement.  Just accept that the sonic improvement will be very slight and very subtle.


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## maverickronin

Quote:


innerspace said:


> I recabled my HD800s and can report a) the effect was easily measurable; and b) the new cable transformed my listening pleasure.
> 
> In terms of measurement - the new cable is five feet longer than the old cable.
> 
> In terms of enjoyment - I can now listen from my favorite sofa.


 

 Congratulations!  You sir, have won the thread!


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## Mad Max

Quote: 





bergman2 said:


> in the realm of bogus claims --- " ... all cables have the same effect on sound quality." --- I bow to you


 

 So a chronically oxidized cable should sound the same as a brand new one, right?


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## tim3320070

$380 for a cable is cracking me up at the moment! That's got to be a gallon or two of snake oil. I bought some used Mirage M-5si speakers for about that (awesome). I bought about 60 used CD's for that amount that bring me near endless music pleasure. You bought a basketball when you could have bought a basketball court, with rims. Get my point?


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## dallan

Quote: 





bergman2 said:


> if you like the sound of the particular cans that's the next logical upgrade ... as far the specifics of the cables, that is another matter entirely -- all cables are not created equally ... dark cans sometimes respond better to silver and bright cans to copper .


 

 This is what my ears have told me too.  I have tried with the HD800, ended up with copper, and have done extensive listening with the LCD2 with silver plated and copper and stock.  Your impressions may vary, try to preview them-hopefully your headphones have removable plugs.


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## beeman458

*InnerSpace wrote:*
   
*Just accept that the sonic improvement will be very slight and very subtle.*
   
  Agreeing with your above, what the anti-cable guys don't get, for me, the improvement lies in about 1/10 of one percent and helps with clipping and opens cords up and helps with the decay of the cymbal or the pluck of a string.  Many times, the improvement lies below my listening threshold and is picked up on the emotional or ethereal level.  And by ethereal, that means untestable by today's standards.
   
  I don't have a sofa nearby but my cables are ten feet in length, so I can make it to the recliner.
   




   




   
*tim3320070 wrote:*
   
*$380 for a cable is cracking me up at the moment!*
   
  Ya gotta love envy.  Why?  It let's you know you're doing it right.
   




   
*You bought a basketball when you could have bought a basketball court, with rims.*
   
  I don't do B-ball and I don't drive overly priced cars as my service rig has these stupid rims that keep keeps disc pad dust all over them.
   
*Get my point?*
   
  No.  I'll await your explanation


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## Br777

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> I think this exact thread ran its course 2 weeks ago.  Scroll back a few pages for "answers".  On head-fi you'll hear the whole range of opinion from "buying cables = death" to "can't live without it".  The poll that was taken in one of the threads seemed tipped slightly more towards the cable-tolerant side, but the cable cynics on head-fi are pretty hardcore.


 


 ...and 4 weeks ago, and 6 weeks ago, an 8 weeks ago for years and years back.. which makes at least one thing *very *clear and undeniable.. the majority of people cant tell the difference, or can tell so little difference that its termed "negligable". 
   
  This debate simply would not exist if this were not the case. 
   
  base your decision on that premise and you cant go wrong.


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## beeman458

*Br777wrote:*
   
*the majority of people cant tell the difference, or can tell so little difference that its termed "negligable".*
   
  And the world thrives in a world where the majority don't even know there's a cable debate going on, people argue about religion, most people don't have running water and the average IQ is 100.
   
  And?
   
  ???
   
*base your decision on that premise and you cant go wrong.*
   
  And if one doesn't give a $, you'll do even better.
   
  ???


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## dallan

^^They debate about IQ test too.........lots of arguing out there


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## beeman458

*dallan wrote:*
   
*^^They debate about IQ test too.........lots of arguing out there
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*


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## maverickronin

@beeman
   
  Which definition are you using there?  Half of those imply something that doesn't actually exist, at least not in this cosmology.  Or are you a 17th level spellcaster who enjoys the benefits of your cables a few minutes at a time?  Personally, I can think of better uses for 9th level spell slots, but to each his own.


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## beeman458

*maverickronin wrote:*
   
*Which definition are you using there?*
   
  Based upon my comment, primary.
   
  Not being a gamer (or a D&D type) , you'll have to bring me up on the fantasy world of gaming and spell-casters as other than your thoughtful links, I haven't a D&D clue.
   
  (Shame on me)


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## maverickronin

@beeman
   
  Here's a synonym for your first definition.  (Primary and secondary are the meat and potatoes, but tertiary is still something that doesn't actually exist.)
   
  The point is, outside of chemistry, or getting high, (a specific group of organic molecules which have nothing to do with electrical or acoustic sciences) nothing ethereal actually exists in this universe, like it does in the fictional D&D universe.  If you actually had those powers in RL you'd be a super hero/villain as your resistance to being corrupted by power dictates, and if I were a super hero/villain I'd have better thing to use my powers on than being able to perceive minor differences in headphone cables.  I'd probably start out stopping crime and whanot until the power went to my head and I made myself dictator of some poor benighted nation somewhere, but that's just me.


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## beeman458

*I'd probably start out stopping crime and whanot until the power went to my head and I made myself dictator of some poor benighted nation somewhere, but that's just me.*
   
  O-kay.  Moving forward.


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## Uncle Erik

maverickronin, of course the luminiferous æther exists. It was a widely accepted theory before the haters ruined it for everyone.


 It is also possible to transmute base metals into gold. The skeptics are simply suppressing the evidence.


 And all you need to know about your health is contained in your black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. They're simply trying to ruin the fun.


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## maverickronin

Darn skeptics!  They ruin everything!
   
Quote: 





> where has all the magic gone​ lost behind or lost along​ a victim of the pulse of our society​ don't you miss the ancient times​ the riddles and the subtle signs​ a relative perspective on reality  ​


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## Uncle Erik

I found this to profoundly improve my system:

 www.instantwishmaker.com

 Just put the CD in your system, make a wish, and it all comes true!


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## maverickronin

Wow...
   
  And I thought The Secret was out there.  There is no limit to the crazy.


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## Uncle Erik

You haven't visited www.timecube.com, have you? Just try to disprove that one.

 [Warning: seriously wacky and now begins with an offensive rant before getting to the crazy. It used to be nothing but crazy. For non-offensive weirdness, there's always zombo.com.]


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## maverickronin

I'm passingly familiar with it.  Time Cube is pretty much the pinnacle of internet wingnuterey, with its mix of incomprehensible rambling and web design that would have been laughed at in 1995.  I fear for my sanity so I haven't read the whole thing, but as far as I can tell he isn't trying to sell anything so I think he's more or less harmless.


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## haloxt

The time cube guy is a very good debater, pretty much everything he has said is technically unassailable. Those statements that can be questioned he will probably successfully sneak out of. His game is to make it easy for him to be misinterpreted, and when he is successful in this, he technically wins the debate. And his victory is made that much sweeter because his detractors think they are obviously right and he is obviously wrong, and to the degree they do so shows how poorly versed they are in rhetoric. People who understand his game do not dare challenge him in debate, because they know he has set up a near-impenetrable fortress of theory.


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## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *InnerSpace wrote:*
> 
> *Just accept that the sonic improvement will be very slight and very subtle.*
> 
> ...


 

 The problem with the above is that the majority of pro-cablers are no so clear that cables make up such a small part of the sound. It is easy to find exaggerated claims, which suggest that if do not have the cable, or you cannot hear it, then you are a bit sad and are missing out.
   
  Again if the pro side all admitted that the differences are outwith what you can hear and are just emotional experiences in your head, there would more honest info for people to base their decisions on.


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## beeman458

*haloxt wrote:*
   
*...because they know he has set up a near-impenetrable fortress of theory.*
   
  For most, insanity is a very small fortress of one which you walk around and leave in the distance, for others to massage.


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## kickassdude

For looks and respect, yes. For soundquality no.


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## tim3320070

Respect from a cable? Hmmmm. How about diamond and gold studded cables, like a Mr. T cable. Lady Gaga cable for the ladies? 20-30 lbs of bling ought to provide some wow factor.


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## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> Agreeing with your above, what the anti-cable guys don't get, for me, the improvement lies in about 1/10 of one percent and helps with clipping and opens cords up and helps with the decay of the cymbal or the pluck of a string.  Many times, the improvement lies below my listening threshold and is picked up on the emotional or ethereal level.  And by ethereal, that means untestable by today's standards.


 

 You are not going to hear a difference of 0.1 percent.
  You say that the "improvement" lies below you listening threshold and is picked up on the emotional or ethereal level. Well, you don't have to define ethereal in case we don't understand. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  This is absolute rubbish.
   
  What you are "hearing" is auto-suggestion.
   
  You've been taken for a ride by marketing hype.
   
  That's the change that has been picked up on an "emotional level"


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## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> In the simple, I spent some $380.00 bucks on my headphone cables and I got's no complaints.  A hundred and twenty-five bucks of that was for physical appearance stuff, sheathing and splitter.  Dang but I do love the look of my custom headphone cables.
> 
> In a question such as this, there's only one thing that counts, your listening pleasure.  Me?  I'm a very happy camper.
> 
> ...


 

 You paid $380.00 for your headphone cables.
   
  There is one born every minute.
   
  You say the difference these cables give is not night and day "because they dwell in the world of nuances".
   
  Well you were easily conned out of $380.
   
  I've listened to music through hi fi systems for over thirty years.
   
  Lets look at these "improvements".
   
  You write that "The single stroke of a string had a longer decay".
   
  Well that is measurable. If the decay of is longer than it used to be, then this would be additional waves at the end of the wave form.
   
  So, you are saying that if a signal is applied to one side of the cable then at the other side new additional waves have appeared prolonging decay.
   
  This is ridiculous.
   
  I think that in a blind listening test you would not be able to hear the difference between the stock cable and this $380 one.


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## XXII

The best cable makers will have a returns policy. You can just return the cable if you find there is no difference.


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## tmars78

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> You paid $380.00 for your headphone cables.
> 
> There is one born every minute.
> 
> ...


 

 I am going to tell you right now, before he even gets to answer, that he is going to tell you that he would fail, but not cause he can't hear a difference, but because the test is designed for him to fail. I could go quote him and show you, but take my word for it.


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## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





tmars78 said:


> I am going to tell you right now, before he even gets to answer, that he is going to tell you that he would fail, but not cause he can't hear a difference, but because the test is designed for him to fail. I could go quote him and show you, but take my word for it.


 

 Thank you tmars78 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I will not respond to his dismissal of the test.
   
  To be honest I am not very concerned about these rather daft advocates of magic in hi fi spending a great deal of money on these things, they deserve what they get.
   
  However it is a bit of a concern that they continue to aid a very big con which has been going on in hi fi now for quite a number of years. People new to hi fi can be taken in by this and it is important to highlight that it is, indeed, a plain straightforward con.


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## Permagrin

Quote:


p a t r i c k said:


> Thank you tmars78
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  /puts flameproof suit on
   
  I wont argue with you but the only experiential data I have shows that replacing the stock cable on my LCD-2s has improved the sound. If anyone would like to drop in and listen for themselves I will be more than happy to accomodate.


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## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





xxii said:


> The best cable makers will have a returns policy. You can just return the cable if you find there is no difference.


 

 Yes, but the problem is that these cables sell by auto-suggestion.
   
  The auto-suggestion lasts for a good bit more than a month.
   
  It depends how long you believe it.
   
  I'm sure that some do figure it out within a month, but others take longer.
   
  Our perception of sound is hugely susceptible to auto-suggestion and this is a problem for all testing of hi fi.
   
  I am highly susceptible to auto-suggestion myself. Some years ago I bought an "audiophile" mains lead. I was certainly convinced that it was bringing some benefits for a long time, maybe a couple of years. Even though I have enough electrical knowledge to know that the mains cable could not bring any significant benefits I still "believed" that the mains cable was a good thing.
   
  I still have the mains cable and it is absolutely obvious to me now that it is no different at all to any other mains cable in terms of sound quality.
   
  I also have an Audio Note interconnect cable (gosh!) from some years ago. Audio Note are a company that must have made a fortune out of bogus "hi end" cables. Needless to say I realise now that the Audio Note mains cable brings no benefits over any competently design and manufactured interconnect.
   
  So, it is high time that we called an end to this farce.
   
  I think that if reviewers in magazines and blogs are going to keep telling us about their experiences of benefits from these cables then they must subject themselves to well controlled blind "ABX" listening tests to demonstrate that they are not subject to auto-suggestion.


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## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





armyowalgreens said:


> I ask this because I've gotten two very distinct answers.
> 
> 1. It's worth every penny.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi armyowalgreens
   
  As you have guessed this is a hot topic!
   
  I am not, in fact, someone that believes that cables make no difference to sound quality.
   
  I am someone who believes that auto-suggestion plays an enormous role in the appreciation of audio reproduction equipment.
   
  I do buy good audio cables for my system and I recommend people do so.
   
  By "good" I mean competently designed and manufactured cables. The cables you see at the budget end of the hi fi cable market are the ones I get for interconnects.
   
  For headphones I use the cables that come with the headphones and I've found the stock cables with headphones to be very good in the headphones I have bought.
   
  You will read all kinds of anecdotal reports from people that have experienced improvements from headphone cables.
   
  I believe that for the most part this is auto-suggestion, however cables are almost never subjected to blind listening tests, so we never find out.
   
  We do know that scientifically it is very unlikely that "magic cables" will bring significant benefits over a decently made cable which in all likelihood is exactly what came with your headphones when you bought them.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





bergman2 said:


> if you like the sound of the particular cans that's the next logical upgrade ... as far the specifics of the cables, that is another matter entirely -- all cables are not created equally ... dark cans sometimes respond better to silver and bright cans to copper .... if you can swing it just go balanced, that makes the biggest cable diff by far


 
   
  "dark cans sometimes respond better to silver and bright cans to copper"
   
  What voodoo nonsense.
   
  Like all the voodoo crowd I very much doubt that you would notice these differences in well controlled blind ABX tests.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> /puts flameproof suit on
> 
> I wont argue with you but the only experiential data I have shows that replacing the stock cable on my LCD-2s has improved the sound. If anyone would like to drop in and listen for themselves I will be more than happy to accomodate.


 

 Hi Permagrin
   
  I don't wish to argue either, honest!
   
  However the test is not that someone comes to your house and experiences your upgraded cables, although I'm sure a visit to you house would be extremely lovely indeed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The test is that you do a controlled blind ABX test and identify the upgraded cables.
   
  That is the interesting part.
   
  It might well be that you pass this test with flying colours!
   
  However I think that it is also possible that your perceived improvements are in fact the result of auto-suggestion.
   
  Please note that I am not saying that is the case, but rather that I am all to well aware of how significant auto-suggestion is in audio, but unfortunately people factor this out of their experiences.


----------



## Permagrin

Quote:


p a t r i c k said:


> Hi Permagrin
> 
> I don't wish to argue either, honest!
> 
> ...


 

 Wow, I really didn't expect such a response. What a breath of fresh air. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I understand the rationale behind the vocal anti-cable crowd who don't want people to be ripped off. But I've seen far too little tactfulness in their persuasion.
   
  In my instance with the LCD-2s I noticed easily audible differences than with the stock cable. Perhaps it was in my head, perhaps the stock cable isn't really as good as it could be for these cans. Regardless, I enjoy what I feel to be an improvement over the original package.
   
  Honestly, I have a moderate amount of disposable income (no wife or kids either) so I can throw my money away on this increasingly costly headphone setup. So I don't really mind that a portion of that goes towards high quality cables that may or may not make a lick of difference.
   
  Anyone that doesn't have a moderate amount of disposable income probably shouldn't be in this hobby (well mid-fi anyway) in the first place but now I'm rambling.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

One way a cable can make a difference is in volume. I and others have noticed that different ICs and headphone cables can cause you to adjust the volume control on your amp to get back to the volume level you like. I think that that, along with auto-suggestion causes people to believe the cable has (or has not) brought about an improvement. Slightly louder often makes something sound better as details become clearer and dynamics more obvious.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> Hi Permagrin
> 
> I don't wish to argue either, honest!
> 
> ...


 

 After taking part in quite a number of threads as these, I've come to fully agree with you P a t r i c k where this 'autosuggestion' thing is concerned.  It's huge in audio, no doubt.
   
  Unfortunately, the phenomenon seems to be only seriously considered when talking about cables and not about any other gear.  Of late, I'm finding myself to have very little interest in the discussion of nuances between pieces of gear because of subjective differences in appreciation, nicely adorned by the phenomenon of autosuggestion.  Your amp will surely sound a lot better after reading a huge thread that raves about it and compares it to many worthy contenders.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  On this background, I've failed to hear a difference between different transport options that I've been exploring.  Many others hear big differences, of course.
   
  So, I'm at home with my HD650's and am getting a tad annoyed with the inflexibility and weight of my Silver Dragon cable.  I switch back to the stock since it's lighter and more flexible. Good grief... it looks like I need some further detoxing yet.  The Silver Dragon is <gulp> ... making a difference.  What a frustration!!  Thought I'd share this here anyway even though it's not scientific.  Just an experience.


----------



## haloxt

There's lighter cables than the silver dragon. I took 24 awg copper and braided my own cable and added no sheathing because I was using some really peculiar headphones, pfr-v1. It's like less than 1/5th the weight of the blue/silver dragon but same gauge conductors. Problem is it would die to a quick snip with plastic scissors 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Aimlink, is there a difference in volume between the two cables?


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> There's lighter cables than the silver dragon. I took 24 awg copper and braided my own cable and added no sheathing because I was using some really peculiar headphones, pfr-v1. It's like less than 1/5th the weight of the blue/silver dragon but same gauge conductors. Problem is it would die to a quick snip with plastic scissors
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'm sure there are lighter cables.  The cable that I have for the K702's are great.  They sound different from the stock as well, BTW.  That's the one with the most difference I've heard.
   
  I neglected to mention that I now hear no difference between the Cardas and stock HD800 cables.  At least I managed to get one difference out of my system.  One small mercy.
   
  As to being conned, p a t r i c k has a alluded to a consumer phenomenon that knows no bounds.  Conning someone into buying something has many dimensions.  The one that's HUGE is conning consumers into buying things they don't really need.  If us head-fiers chew on that one for a while, then we'd all calm down and have civil discussions about the things we disagree as with these cables here.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Aimlink, is there a difference in volume between the two cables?


 

 No.  Not that I can tell.  The stock HD650 cables sort of castrate the top end.  It's as if it's filtering the sound when compared to the Silver Dragons.
   
  We could put this down to the plugs ... Furutech vs the stock and the integrity of the connection.  I really don't know.  But the difference is there.  Not night and day, mind you.... but there and I do appreciate the difference enough to be using the Silver Dragons.
   
  OTOH, I'm back to using the stock HD800's because I prefer them to the Cardas in terms of ergo and I've come to conclusion that they sound pretty much the same.  The Cardas cable cover's surface is too grippy and this can create some issues for me while using it.


----------



## scootermafia

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> You paid $380.00 for your headphone cables.
> 
> There is one born every minute.
> 
> ...


 

 Don't knock it till you try it.  If you're just going to talk trash about something you've never used, then how is your opinion more valid than someone who has the product and is happy with it?


----------



## Prog Rock Man

'Don't knock it until you have tried it'. Following your own advice why don't you shoot yourself in the foot? There are loads of things that it is not a very good idea to do and we do not need to try them ourselves to find out why.


----------



## haloxt

Heh what an analogy. How about this, make a 20 foot 30 awg headphone extension cable, then a 20 foot 21 awg headphone extension cable, then compare the difference. This is the sort of experiment I did many times to get more confident about my beliefs in cables, something I see very few pro-cablers and very few anti-cablers do. I suggest both parties try, it is not as bad as shooting yourself in the foot and more educational.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

I may have already doe something similar to your suggestion haloxt. I bought a Sony headphone extension cable that did sound strangled and I had to turn the volume up to get a decent sound. It was very thin and tangled easily. Since it only cost £4 I then ditched it in favour of a £5 extension cable from ThatCable. I could turn the volume back down again and it did not tangle. I could get the same SQ out of both cables, but was happier with one over the other, so had psychoacoustic reasons to prefer it and there was a slight change in volume, which made it appear there was actually a difference.
   
  I have no idea what the differences, if any in the awg of either cable.


----------



## Permagrin

As I am not on the anti-cable side of the fence this is the main issue I see and it is clearly offensive yet allowed to exist on these forums:
   
*Namely, people are being told their experiences are not true. *
   
  "You cannot hear a difference in cables as it is scientifically insignificant"*
   
  *given properly made cables of course
   
  Am I alone here?


----------



## logwed

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> I may have already doe something similar to your suggestion haloxt. I bought a Sony headphone extension cable that did sound strangled and I had to turn the volume up to get a decent sound. It was very thin and tangled easily. Since it only cost £4 I then ditched it in favour of a £5 extension cable from ThatCable. I could turn the volume back down again and it did not tangle. I could get the same SQ out of both cables, but was happier with one over the other, so had psychoacoustic reasons to prefer it and there was a slight change in volume, which made it appear there was actually a difference.
> 
> I have no idea what the differences, if any in the awg of either cable.


 

 Wait, you're saying that you heard a change in volume and yet you don't claim that there is a sonic difference? A change in volume is a pretty significant difference, either your other cable was broken, or you're a closet believer.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> As I am not on the anti-cable side of the fence this is the main issue I see and it is clearly offensive yet allowed to exist on these forums:
> 
> *Namely, people are being told their experiences are not true. *
> 
> ...


 

 No, us anti-cablers get this all the time. I don't find it offensive to be told that I am wrong and I do not intend to offend when I say that others are wrong. If I do offend I am sorry, but I am not going to stop saying that it is wrong to claim SQ properties in cables that do not exist, in the way they claim they exist.

  
  Quote: 





logwed said:


> Wait, you're saying that you heard a change in volume and yet you don't claim that there is a sonic difference? A change in volume is a pretty significant difference, either your other cable was broken, or you're a closet believer.


 

 I think that the reason why people believe that there is a SQ difference in cables is because of psychoacoustics and slight volume differences caused by resistance. They are real reasons as to why cables do sound different. But, if you remove psychoacoustics and adjust volume then cable differences disappear, so no SQ difference anymore.
   
  Those reasons for cable differences are not very good ones to base an industry on that charges huge amounts of money and makes ridiculous claims. If the pro-cable side stated clearly that the reasons to buy an 'audiophile cable' are; it will make you feel good and may have an effect on volume (which you volume control can also do), that would be fine.


----------



## Permagrin

Quote:


prog rock man said:


> No, us anti-cablers get this all the time. I don't find it offensive to be told that I am wrong and I do not intend to offend when I say that others are wrong. If I do offend I am sorry, but I am not going to stop saying that it is wrong to claim SQ properties in cables that do not exist, in the way they claim they exist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


   
  Anti-cablers get told their experiences are wrong? Can you give me an example?
   
  Countless posts where people are told that they are not actually hearing sonic differences in cables by others who cannot experience that for themselves to verify and automatically assume that the person is hearing psychoacoustics or whatever was what I was talking about.
   
  That's okay though? Seems quite ignorant and offensive to me.
   
  If everything else you say is true I agree, it's a snake oil business to be sure.
   
  But personally I have experienced a change in sound, so even if that might be in the minority, the rule does not always apply and therefor there is no black and white.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> As I am not on the anti-cable side of the fence this is the main issue I see and it is clearly offensive yet allowed to exist on these forums:
> 
> *Namely, people are being told their experiences are not true. *
> 
> ...


 

 I know that it is very annoying for it to be suggested that your experiences or not true 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Your experience could very well be valid, I am not denying that for one minute.
   
  What I am suggesting is that it would be great if it could be tried out in a well controlled blind ABX test.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> prog rock man said:
> ...


 

 Anti-cablers are told that their experiences are wrong for reasons such as they do not have good hearing and that blind testing is bogus.
   
  The electrical properties of cables are well known and nothing has been shown where any electrical property can be equated with SQ . Blind testing finds that people cannot back up their SQ claims for cables. So, if we rule out the actual cable as being capable of making a SQ difference, we are left with the listener being the reason why there is a SQ difference.
   
  Hence I do think that 'audiophile cables' are snake oil.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Anti-cablers get told their experiences are wrong? Can you give me an example?
> 
> Countless posts where people are told that they are not actually hearing sonic differences in cables by others who cannot experience that for themselves to verify and automatically assume that the person is hearing psychoacoustics or whatever was what I was talking about.


 

 Hi Permagrin
   
  Well the group you identify as "anti-cablers" are continuously being told by the "golden ears" that they can't hear differences in sound because their hearing is not very good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I think that cables might make a difference but the anecdotal reporting of differences is no good. What is required is well controlled blind ABX testing to counter auto-suggestion.
   
  This almost never happens, the hi fi industry does not much like this approach (I wonder why?).
   
  There is one excellent blind ABX test performed by Jason Victor Serinus. This is performed on mains cables. He tests the hugely expensive Nordost Valhalla cables against generic "came in the box" cables in a very high resolution system. All mains cables in the system where changed between the Valhallas and the generic cables, so an "upgrade" of 1000s of $/£/€ was tried out. No difference is found between the cables in the test.
   
  You can read about it here:
   
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
   
  Jason Serinus was himself an advocate of the Valhalla mains cables and conducted the test believing it would vindicate them as being worthwhile.
   
  I would love to see similar blind ABX tests for interconnects and other hi fi components.
   
  I would also love to see the many reviewers who endlessly report upon differences between cables and other hi fi item participate in such tests. I have great respect for Jason Serinus, unlike the other "golden ears" he put his money where his mouth was and participated in the test himself. In the test he could hear no difference whatsoever.
   
  Needless to say the Nordost Valhalla mains cables are still on sale today and people still pay vast sums of money for them.
   
  Retailers for the Nordost Valhallas do not include a link to the Jason Serinus test.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Loads of blind testing here, including your link p a t r i c k
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> Don't knock it till you try it.  If you're just going to talk trash about something you've never used, then how is your opinion more valid than someone who has the product and is happy with it?


 
   
  The individual reports the impossible.
   
  He is also very rude indeed to those that wish to say that he is describing the impossible.
   
  If you wish to believe in the impossible and magic then it is much cheaper to simply buy Harry Potter books than it is to spend a small fortune on hi fi cables.
   
  With the Harry Potter books you get what you pay for, a good story which doesn't claim to be true.
   
  To be honest I do believe cables can make a difference to the sound but it is not very great and the budget end of the cable market is the best place to buy them.
   
  I think that the expensive cables sell by auto-suggestion and so I don't think anecdotal statement of benefits are very useful.
   
  What is required is well controlled blind ABX testing.
   
  Maybe the results of this might well show that the expensive cables make a difference. However it is worth noting that none of the expensive cable manufacturers ever conduct these tests. I wonder why?
   
  If the hi fi reviewing people would conduct blind ABX tests instead of writing those long tedious adulations to expensive equipment they would be doing us all a favour.
   
  I think that the majority, in fact probably all, the expensive cable upgrades are just one huge rip off along with many other rip offs in hi fi.


----------



## Permagrin

I've previously read that myths thread, thank you though. It obviously didn't stop me from spending my money on expensive cables, although as I don't really have any debt or other liabilities, I can afford this hobby (mid-fi at least).
   
  I was actually quite surprised at the improvement in sound with my cable switch so maybe the stock cable wasn't actually up to snuff. Either way I don't really care. I enjoy music now probably more than ever and percentage-wise it isn't that much compared to my total "investment".
   
  No, I have a few of my own bridges thank you. And yes they are for sale, how did you know?
   
  Quote:


p a t r i c k said:


> If the hi fi reviewing people would conduct blind ABX tests instead of writing those long tedious adulations to expensive equipment they would be doing us all a favour.
> I think that the majority, in fact probably all, the expensive cable upgrades are just one huge rip off along with many other rip offs in hi fi.


   
  And without this site and others we would perhaps be truly in the dark about which gear would be suitable for us. If you're referring to a specific website I've got a pretty good guess which one.
   
  It is an enjoyable hobby at least.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> After taking part in quite a number of threads as these, I've come to fully agree with you P a t r i c k where this 'autosuggestion' thing is concerned.  It's huge in audio, no doubt.
> 
> Unfortunately, the phenomenon seems to be only seriously considered when talking about cables and not about any other gear.  Of late, I'm finding myself to have very little interest in the discussion of nuances between pieces of gear because of subjective differences in appreciation, nicely adorned by the phenomenon of autosuggestion.  Your amp will surely sound a lot better after reading a huge thread that raves about it and compares it to many worthy contenders.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hi aimlink
   
  Yes I do agree that auto-suggestion plays a huge part in audio.
   
  I think there is a very big history to this issue and I keep meaning to write an article or something, but I am hugely busy at the moment with other projects.
   
  I remember before this "subjectivist" period began. I had my first "cool" hi fi in the 70s. In those days tests on hi fi were simply an electronic analysis of the equipment, complete with graphs and a description of the quality of the casing construction. That was it!
   
  Well, the 80s came along and so did the new "subjectivism". This was listening to the equipment and writing a review based on that experience. Boy did I welcome this! What a relief it was.
   
  The question of auto-suggestion lay behind this change and so some British magazines of that time introduced new ways of review which I felt were a good compromise and presented a solution.
   
  The best example was one magazine which would review several different similarly priced components at one time. These would be reviewed by a panel made up of the magazine journalist who would write comments on each without seeing the products being reviewed. I imagine they took a day over it and all sat in the same room which the gear was switched out of sight. This wasn't a blind ABX test by any means, it wasn't a "spot the difference" contest, it was merely a way of providing a review of the equipment without being subject to preconceptions about each item of equipment.
   
  The article in the magazine would then be written up by the editor, most likely, who would use quotes from the notes of the reviewing panel.
   
  So we can see that there are ways to review audio equipment which accounts to some extent for auto-suggestion.
   
  However none of these reviewing methods are in use today.
   
  The audio review today is simple one person who writes about his listening experiences with a given product. He or she makes no account of any auto-suggestion on their behalf. The review is presented as "subjective" but this is not even subjective because the reviewer is so unwittingly influenced by his or her own preconceptions about the product, the sales talk about the product etc.
   
  People who want to listen to their music with the best possible fidelity in reproduction have been done a massive disservice by these reviews which for the most part are simply adulations of the products.
   
  I believe that if the reviewers were to subject themselves to blind ABX listening tests then we could see just how good their "golden ears" really are!
   
  I think that if audio magazines returned to blind group testing, as has happened in the past, the we might well see some surprising results.
   
  Although these issues arise in threads about cables, I think this of course applies to all audio equipment.
   
  To be honest I believe that large sections of the so-called "hi end" gear that is being made and sold is, to be frank, just rubbish and easily bested by modestly priced well designed gear.
   
  Appalling distortion is now being described by the reviewers as "sound signature" when it appears in very expensive equipment, but the same distortion in cheap equipment is not elavated in this way.
   
  If people wish to buy equipment with such problems then they can of course simply buy very cheaply made equipment which will deliver that same experience as the very expensive stuff 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  So, to come back to auto-suggestion directly. I believe that reviews that do not account for auto-suggestion are invalid and the reader should discount them as being of no worth.


----------



## Albedo

I wouldn't pay hundreds of dollars for a string of UP-OCC copper wrapped up in Teflon:
http://www.moon-audio.com/DIY_Audio_Wire.htm


----------



## scootermafia

The reason these threads fail is that cable haters say cable lovers are hearing things that they really aren't hearing, while cable lovers tell cable haters that they lack the ability to hear the differences or are scared to even try cables.  It's a lose-lose situation.  
  So, if you have headphones, and are at all curious, get a cable second hand or with a return policy, or borrow one, and try it...or else be curious, and tell others that cables have no effect on the sound.  In that way, you have nothing to lose by trying.  It isn't fair to say that you know how a certain cable performs for sure if you haven't tried it, though.  That is just like the people that give gear advice for gear they've never tried, and most of us have read the post from one of the moderators warning people who do that.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> I've previously read that myths thread, thank you though. It obviously didn't stop me from spending my money on expensive cables, although as I don't really have any debt or other liabilities, I can afford this hobby (mid-fi at least).
> 
> ..................snip
> 
> It is an enjoyable hobby at least.


 

 If you read through that thread and still bought a cable, that is fine. Information and choice are what is important to me. My real problem is with those who are not given all of the information on cables and are are subjected to exaggerated and spurious claims with regards to cables so they are lead to believe that they do need to upgrade their cable.


----------



## beeman458

*Patrick wrote:*
   
*You are not going to hear a difference of 0.1 percent.*
   
  Actually, you are.  If you're concentrating on the 0.1 percent.  Hell, if you're concentrating, it's very easy to hear a difference in a single note.  And a single note comprises of how much of a recording?
   
*You say that the "improvement" lies below you listening threshold and is picked up on the emotional or ethereal level. Well, you don't have to define ethereal in case we don't understand. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




" class="bbcode_smiley" src="http://files.head-fi.org/images/smilies//smily_headphones1.gif" title="
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




" />*
   
*This is absolute rubbish.*
   
  Actually it's not.
   
*What you are "hearing" is auto-suggestion.*
   
  You and your comments, are the basis for your auto-suggestion; convincing you and others that there's not a difference when in fact there is.
   
*You've been taken for a ride by marketing hype.*
   
  Your opinion, not my fact.
*That's the change that has been picked up on an "emotional level" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




" class="bbcode_smiley" src="http://files.head-fi.org/images/smilies//smily_headphones1.gif" title="
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




" />*
   
  I feel sorry for folks like you who love their music so much, yet miss so much and have to work so hard to convince others that they're not hearing a difference because it makes folks like you, feel good about yourself.


----------



## tim3320070

Wow, I am amazed at the level people will go choosing to ignore science. It's a wire transmitting a signal. It's not a driver that creates the sound, it's not the recording equipment that creates the sound, it's not the amplifier or DAC--- all which make the sound. It's just a wire between all those things, and a tiny percentage of that wiring to boot. Yes, I have tried some "upgraded" cables.
  Common sense says this is (in Patricks words) "rubbish".


----------



## bergman2

ok, if it's just a "wire bw all those things" then rip out all the wires in the guts of your amps and dacs and replace it with lamp wire --- then tell me how it sounds ... a hp cable, like the rest, are another part of the audio stream


----------



## haloxt

Dude, lamp wire is thicker than most internal wiring, those wiring that are larger I'd just double or triple the lamp wire 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. If I replaced all my internal wiring with thicker gauge wire I expect to hear improvements from lower resistance.


----------



## tim3320070

And I expect it would sound the same, assuming I didn't cross solder something and blow it the hell up. Oh, and lamp wire sounds as good as anything else with fancy names, twistings, wrappings, rare wood splitters, etc. --- in my opinion.


----------



## warp08

I am a member of the pro-cable party.  I have heard "audiophile cables" of various types that have made no audible difference.  I have also heard and purchased very expensive "audiophile cables" that made enormous difference for me.  No, I cannot measure "enormous" quantitatively, but I have increased my musical enjoyment significantly.
   
  I have a pretty high-end system, overall and I have made sure that it was properly matched, including the cabling.  For example, I have happily paid $400 for a $300 pair of cans, and the improvement (on my system) has made the investment very worthwhile.  As I have upgraded major components of my system over  the past year, my subjective observation was that the improvements brought upon by high-quality cabling was more noticeable and apparent when more resolving components were introduced into the mix.
   
  I have published some reviews of my experience describing what I've heard to the best of my ability.  I'm not here to change anybody's perceptions or to pitch any particular vendor's products, as some may be better than others and I can and will only comment on those I personally own and/or auditioned.
   
  Think of this post as just another opinion whether you agree or disagree with it.  Thanks.


----------



## dallan




----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> .....
> I think that if audio magazines returned to blind group testing, as has happened in the past, the we might well see some surprising results.
> 
> Although these issues arise in threads about cables, I think this of course applies to all audio equipment.
> ...


 
   
  Great post!  I deeply appreciate your consistent position on this and the historical account was educational.  It's quite rare to see on these boards such a consistent POV.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





			
				tim3320070 said:
			
		

> And I expect it would sound the same, assuming I didn't cross solder something and blow it the hell up. Oh, and lamp wire sounds as good as anything else with fancy names, twistings, wrappings, rare wood splitters, etc. --- in my opinion.


 

  There's a few ways that cables can make a difference, but the good thing about lamp cord is that it is pretty decent gauge even for speakers. But much thinner gauge is usually used for headphones, sometimes ~30 awg and ten feet long. I have misused lamp cord before though, fooling around with a friend we put an 18 awg 100 foot length of lamp cord on a speaker (was his system so it's okay 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
   
  There certainly are ways to make too thin or too long cables and get a measurable and audible difference, but in most situations it won't be easily manifested when 16-18 awg lamp wire is concerned. But, imo, 10 foot long 30 awg headphone cables is another matter, and I highly suggest people who don't believe it follow my suggestion of making a 21 awg and a 30 awg 20 foot extension cable. See pictures at bottom of this speaker cable link and imagine what would happen with a totally inadequate cable.
   
  http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=65


----------



## BIG POPPA

How do you guys measure the house sound? Each manufacturer have their own timbre? That is the part that separates them?


----------



## leeperry

life would be so simple if all the cables sounded the same...but sadly, a crappy one in a strategic role can completely cripple your rig, and ruin any improvement you could be trying to make upstream.


----------



## stevenswall

I believe, based on personal experience with a few cables, some $10 and some $200, that they do not give me any different quality of sound.


----------



## Albedo

Well, I do not use strands of silver plated UP-OCC wrapped up in Teflon because I'm convinced by this..
   
  Tommy Jenving: (rest of the interview -> http://www.tnt-audio.com/intervis/suprae.html) 





> Teflon is highly spoken of, among audiophiles. Yes, for an interconnect it has good properties but for a speaker cable it makes only a meaninglessly high price. However, even better is our gasblown PE-foam. This can be explained: The velocity factor is to be as high as possible for a digital interconnect as well as for a video interconnect and this velocity factor is directly depending on the capacitance of the insulation. This is easy to understand if you consider the switching surges in the material. Thereof we can easily see the direct connection between high frequency properties, propagation velocity and dielectric properties.
> 
> So, why do we not use Teflon? Simply because our gas blown PE is of an even lower capacitance and is much more economic to process in production. We simply make a better cable at a lower price! The propagation velocity of Supra DAC is 78% of the speed of light. With Teflon it would be 69%. Another parameter of importance at high frequencies is the characteristic impedance which is also directly depending on the geometry and dielectric of the cable.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Maybe I should buy five feet of this -> https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=1248 (204 strands) and some polyethylene foam tape and start my business here at Head-Fi?


----------



## Black Stuart

Albedo,
  the article was very interesting. Production costs were mentioned - PE foam being used as a cheaper alternative to Teflon. What Tommy Jenving did'nt highlight was the fact that his conductors are 'wrapped' ie. no air allowed to get to the copper wire.
   
  He does'nt like silver plated copper simply because as he said "silver is not a good solution because it even increases the surface run". The interpretation can only mean that because his company 'wraps' the wire with PE foam (cheaper than Teflon) using silver means that a bigger percentage of the signal then travels via the conductor surface. His company has obviously done tests that show that bare wire conducts much, much better than a wrapped wire, something that I have done myself but does'nt use this method of 'air dialectric' because - surprise, surprise it is more costly and time consuming and is not something that can be done by machine.
   
  Why is stranded wire preferred by commercial operations - because it is perceived to have a longer life and there will be far less returns (bad publicity). This in fact is pure b/s. I read many accounts of this 'received wisdom/b/s' so I sat night after night, either when listening to music or surfing, twiddling in all directions a piece of the wire which I use for my i/cs and h/phone cables - 26AWG silver plated OFHC solid core wire. You know I never managed to get it to break, I thought it could only be a question of time - it never happened.
   
  I use silver plated OFHC wire because I have yet to hear of anyone making silver plated UP-OCC solid core wire. Even if I do, would the trade-off of slighty better signal flow equate to what I would imagine would be a far higher cost base - the law of diminishing returns but I would like to try it none the less.
   
   Tommy Jenving argument about stranded wire is straight physics - I do not twist the multiple conductors that I use  for that very reason - yes I've done the AB experiment and the difference is there. Using sheilding on i/cs/h/phone cables just restricts and constrains the music.
   
  I used to use a low loss sat. cable for making i/cs - stripping out the centre conductor and using the polyethelene air celled structure to carry the conductor wires  - once I had found a source for reasonably priced Teflon tubing here in Europe I bought some. There is no way that I would ever return to using PE - there simply is no comparison between the two. 
   
  Albedo why not make two sets of i/cs using your stranded wire and PE foam tape and then using silver/SPC (not cheap jewellers SPC or silver, those wires are great for making jewellery but crap for audio applications) for one and another using bare SPC or silver solid core, just make sure it is quality wire in either case and using oversized Teflon tubing as dialectric - compare the two and get back to this thread.
   
  So is it possible to make a really effective improvement to stock cables - yes. Even if you make it yourself, if you use the best materials it will cost and what many forget when they criticise the price is the amount of time it takes to make i/cs or especially a 9 foot h/phone cable and handling slippery Teflon tubing - do those who criticise work for nothing - no I thought not.
   
  Does anyone else think that phono jacks are not a good idea  - that great big plug of metal. My h/amp has two sockets - I intend to convert them to either XLR or RCA, so seperate L & R chassis sockets and since after much searching I have found a relatively cheap RCA plug that blows away the outrageously expensive Eichmans, I'm leaning in the RCA direction.


----------



## wsoelivan

In my opinion, the cable material, length and size would change the signature of a phone. Those 3 factors change the total resistance of your headphone. I believe we'll see a slight change in frequency response with different cable being used. I also believe this slight change won't always lead to a better sound thing. It all depends on your sound signature preference.
   
  However, whether this slight change is audible or not (few dB change, or maybe 0.0x dB), I'm not the one to answer.


----------



## jellojoe

Did you guys forget that beeman is using cables made by scooter here?
   
   
  Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> 'Don't knock it until you have tried it'. Following your own advice why don't you shoot yourself in the foot? There are loads of things that it is not a very good idea to do and we do not need to try them ourselves to find out why.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





wsoelivan said:


> In my opinion, the cable material, length and size would change the signature of a phone. Those 3 factors change the total resistance of your headphone. I believe we'll see a slight change in frequency response with different cable being used. I also believe this slight change won't always lead to a better sound thing. It all depends on your sound signature preference.
> 
> However, whether this slight change is audible or not (few dB change, or maybe 0.0x dB), I'm not the one to answer.


 

 The answer to audibility lies in the test we must not speak of in this part of the forum.

  
  Quote: 





jellojoe said:


> Did you guys forget that beeman is using cables made by scooter here?


 

 Beeman is harder to pin down than a fly and there will never be any convincing him. It does not matter what cables he uses or what the evidence is, he is right.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Tommy Jenving argument about stranded wire is straight physics


 
   
  No. The whole "strand jumping" nonsense is a load of tripe.
   
  se


----------



## gsilver

I'll just say this: I like my $3 interconnects


----------



## Backwardsman

1&2:  Depends how much your money is worth.


----------



## Black Stuart

Steve Eddy - that is a very unscientific response but par for the course.
   
  Prog rock man, if the Sony cable was so thin why did you buy it - because of the name - not very clever that was it?
   
  Anti-cablers keep using the word 'belief' which has nothing to do with anything, maybe they are all religious or political freaks - quien save! 
   
  Holoxt suggested making up a pair of cables to do your own test with - no response, well what a surprise that is!.
   
  Patrick only buys cables but never makes them and then spouts like a prophet and yes as someone said so many anti-cablers are offensive.
   
  As always I ask if anti-cablers have ever had hearing tests - not one has come back to say yes they have and here they are demanding scientific proof. All kosher scientific tests start by eliminating any intangebles otherwise any test is a nonsense - so that must mean that a hearing test is obligatory yes? - why are the anti-cablers so reluctant to encounter the 'reality' of their individual hearing capabilities. This has to be the start point - I won't hold my breath for any intelligent response to this.
   
  Haloxt - you made a very good point about wire gauge. What I feel is more important is total surface area, that is why I started working with multiple conductors - 26AWG = 0.4mm; 4 x 0.4mm = 1.6mm but the surface area of the 4 x 0.4mm is far greater than a single 1.6mm surface area. This of course is only relevant if an air dialectric is used.
   
  Signal cables have only one function to perform - to relay  the input signal without adding or subtracting anything - ergo it should be 100% neutral - that is what those who make cables should strive for. Using cables to change the characteristics of a source is just plain wrong. A neutral signal cable should expose any shortcomings in the source (if they exist) and this allows component changes to be made to correct 'brightness or lumpy bass etc.
   
  Strange that none of the anti-cablers had anything to say about phono jacks and alternative  connections and they say they are being scientific - it could just be that they hav'nt got a clue.


----------



## Albedo

Black Stuart: I've seen some report of pure copper vs. pure silver, but I'll put my money into a product (like Supra) which pays attention to isolation. Their most expensive loudspeaker cable (Sword) uses enameled OFC wire and costs about $600 for 2 x 10 feet. When I back in the nineties bought some cables for connecting my DAC to the preamplifier I went a little overboard and spent (in my mind) a lot of $ for some good isolated copper, mainly just to get a piece of mind and never again worrying about cables. 
   
  As I see it (not tested) silver is IMHO just bling (ring) when it comes to speaker/ headphone cables, my hard earned cash I'll rather invest in the other part of the chain where the difference is both audible and measurable. There's always the price vs. performance and where the curve flattens out into the plains of the beyonder High End and in that world post-purchase rationalization seems to dominate.
   
  I'd rather keep my sense and my money, when I come it think about it.. IMHO it's more like what Luther said in Thesis 28: "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs"


----------



## maverickronin

Its not just based on _our _hearing.  Its also based on _your _hearing because whenever _you_ golden ears are properly tested, _you _can't tell pure silver from zip cord.  Its not just us skeptics.  Even if us cloth eared gits can't tell the difference ourselves, it doesn't mean a difference can't be demonstrated to us, assuming one actually existed.  Thus far, no one has been able to objectively demonstrate such a difference.  Our position is not based solely on our own subjective experiences.  We also consider objective experiments conducted by others.  One does not have to have done something first hand to have a basic understanding of it.
   
  In addition, wire gauge only matters because of resistance, and the rule of thumb is to keep the resistance of the wire below 5% of nominal transducer impedance.  Because nearly all headphones have greater impedance than typical loudspeaker (usually much greater) thinner gauge wire can be used without affecting the sound.  Unless you are using exceptionally low impedance 'phones or running very long extensions, wire gauge is pretty much irrelevant.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





black stuart said:


> Steve Eddy - that is a very unscientific response but par for the course.
> 
> *Prog rock man, if the Sony cable was so thin why did you buy it - because of the name - not very clever that was it?*
> 
> ...


 

 Black Stuart, I bought the Sony extension off Amazon because of its price. I did not realise about the issue with is construction and tangling until after I had started to use it. Then you say "not very clever was it?" which is offensive and yet you crticise others for being offensive.
   
  Belief is a perfectly reasonable word to use in these threads. I believe in the evidence of my experience and blind tests. Nothing religious or political there and you say "freaks" which is offensive, again.
   
  I have taken a hearing test and my hearing is as it should be for someone who is mid forty.
   
  I posted elsewhere just yesterday about the importance of phono jacks and the connection of wire to jack and jack into plug and that too much emphasis is put on the cable itself. And there you go being offensive again, tut tut!


----------



## Bostonears

Forum title: "Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories *(DBT-Free Forum)*"
  So much for that.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





black stuart said:


> Steve Eddy - that is a very unscientific response but par for the course.


 
   

 *yawwwwwwwwn*
   
  se


----------



## Albedo

Quote:


bostonears said:


> Forum title: "Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories *(DBT-Free Forum)*"
> So much for that.


   
  Well some of us don't see the point in paying through the nose, when for example a Mogami Quad (with Polyethylene insulation) is a more sane alternative, $0,63 pr. foot: http://www.redco.com/shopexd.asp?id=505
   
  Here's a thread with one forum member considering his choices: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/494058/my-experience-with-mogami-quad-for-hd650-cable


----------



## limpidglitch

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Black Stuart, I bought the Sony extension off Amazon because of its price. I did not realise about the issue with is construction and tangling until after I had started to use it. Then you say "not very clever was it?" which is offensive and yet you crticise others for being offensive.
> 
> Belief is a perfectly reasonable word to use in these threads. I believe in the evidence of my experience and blind tests. Nothing religious or political there and you say "freaks" which is offensive, again.
> 
> ...


 

 You probably know this already, but there is a point at which the resistance will be too high.
   
  If I remember correctly Roger Russell has recommended a maximum of 5% of the transducers nominal impedance. 
  The maximum resistance will therefore vary between different headphones. With a 300Ω HD800 it will be 15Ω, or a 178 metre run of 24AWG copper wire. (disregarding the effects caused by increased capacitance and inductance)
  While with a 32Ω Grado it would be a 'mere' 19 metres with the same wire. I do not know what headphones you were using, but that Sony extension cord was definitely nowhere close to 24AWG equivalent.
  Do you still have it around? It would be nice to know what it rated.
  I suspect it to be of that thin enameled type that most headphone cords are made of, which is .5Ω/m, meaning a 3.2 metre run would be the limit for a Grado.
  Now Russell considers this to be a conservative precaution, so I'm just saying there _might_ be more than a change in volume you heard.


----------



## InnerSpace

Apologies for the wordy post, but I have an observation based on practical, real-world, real-money-at-stake experience.
   
  1)  I worked many years in the production and broadcast industry.  Amps, microphones, mixers and speakers were bought by the dozens (sometimes by the hundreds) and consistency was very important.  A guy had to be able to work a week in one suite and then move to another without hearing differences in what he was doing.  We spent major effort making sure that the "XYZ Mk 2" we bought one month sounded like the exact same model we bought the previous month.  Manufacturers worked very, very hard to maintain consistency month to month and year to year.  It was very difficult, because - and this is slightly metaphysical, I know - any two items *are* by definition physically different, and therefore may sound different.  Even two supposedly identical things - two stock HP cables made on different days - are different.  Certainly two amps made in different months are different.
   
  2)  Are these differences audible?  Yes, absolutely, especially in things with lots of, or moving, parts.  We got so paranoid we developed testing protocols, and because engineers are endlessly curious, eventually they investigated cables.  The proposition was this: if a cable makes an audible difference, that can only mean the sound waves leaving the loudspeaker are different.  So a mike was set up, and it fed an ADC, and the bitstream output was captured, and compared sample to sample.  (I'm simplifying a little - eliminating atmospheric and noise-floor variation and syncing the sample starts required some work.)  It was considered that this was a neutral, stress-free test - no human variability involved, and it could be repeated endlessly.  It was a purely arithmetic comparison: were the zeroes and ones in the same place in the sequence or not?
   
  3)  Answer - no, they weren't.  Not even close.  Tested at the 16-bit level, every cable was different, including samples of the same cable from the same box.
   
  4)  But ... these cable differences were arithmetically much, much smaller than the differences between more complex items manufactured at different times.
   
  5)  Therefore ... purely for the sake of example ... logically it would make more sense to stick with stock cables and instead audition a long sequence of samples of your favorite amp and favorite headphones.  The variation between any two HD800s or any two LCD-2s built even days apart will be more significant in terms of audibility than the difference between lamp cord and Cardas.


----------



## maverickronin

Did you do that test in a near perfect anechoic chamber, damped against all outside noise to more than 130dB, without changing the position of any of the gear in the room, all while maintaining a constant temperature and air pressure?  Plus control for a whole for a whole lot of other things I can't think of right now.  All those results are quite likely to just be noise, beneath the real resolution of you testing rig.  There are far to many variables to account for in that sort of test.  Better to just use an oscilloscope


----------



## limpidglitch

Awesome post InnerSpace.
   
  Differences are indeed measurable, just a shame then (or good fortune?) that our natural means of analyzing sound is nowhere near as sophisticated as the gear you used in the studio.


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> Did you do that test in a near perfect anechoic chamber, damped against all outside noise to more than 130dB, without changing the position of any of the gear in the room, all while maintaining a constant temperature and air pressure?  Plus control for a whole for a whole lot of other things I can't think of right now.  All those results are quite likely to just be noise, beneath the real resolution of you testing rig.  There are far to many variables to account for in that sort of test.  Better to just use an oscilloscope


 
   
  Yes, air pressure and temperature were constant - most control rooms need that anyway.  Obviously no physical variation was permitted.  (Cabling is typically outside the control room.)  No need for anechoic conditions, because we were comparing real-world like-for-like.  As I said, noise floor variation was compensated.  It was a good test.  Oscilloscope testing doesn't account for interactions with a transducer.  Believe me, order ten identical HPs, and the difference between the best and the worst (to your ears) will dwarf any cable differences (to your ears.)


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





limpidglitch said:


> Awesome post InnerSpace.
> 
> Differences are indeed measurable, just a shame then (or good fortune?) that our natural means of analyzing sound is nowhere near as sophisticated as the gear you used in the studio.


 
   
  Thanks, and your point is good - in reality *everything* makes some difference, but can you hear it and do you care?


----------



## tim3320070

And these measured differences- did they amount to minor differences to one's ears or mainly via your measurements?


----------



## beeman458

One question I don't understand, why would anybody care what another pays for a cable when obviously, it's a voluntary decision.  Especially when paying more than most are willing to spend on a set of headphones.
   
  If somebody is paying under a couple hundred dollars for a set of cans, if they weren't into cables, you think they'd pay four hundred bucks for a stupid set of cables as opposed to a better set of headphones?  Most folks buying habits are directly inline with available discretionary income.  If somebody likes buying fancy stainless steel gas grills, fancy rims, or a tricked out bass boat, does anybody care?  And if somebody wants to spend ten grand on a turntable, buy an expensive pair of skies or a tricked out snowmobile, is it anybody's business?  But somehow, for the anti-cable crowd, what others buy is now their business, raison d'etre, and they're going save the "naive" from the deception of those who manufacture, promote and use headphone cables.


----------



## Albedo

What's the point of bling-bling other than to show off and why is that so tacky to many spectators?


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





tim3320070 said:


> And these measured differences- did they amount to minor differences to one's ears or mainly via your measurements?


 

 Mostly very minor to the ears - the grossest were between microphones, and even then there was only a vague impression of, "I don't like that one."  Differences between amp samples were generally real-world inaudible.  Cables, too.  My overall impression was (to use a scenario we can all relate to): if say, there is a 100-point difference (on some arbitrary scale) between a Sony XB700 and a Senn HD800, then amp sample differences might score 0.01 points, and cable differences 0.0001 points.  Just my two cents.


----------



## bergman2

as far as i'm concerned it's all about maximum bang for the buck (even if in some cases the maximum amount of sq increase is small in the individual component) ... if i can get a 90% sonic difference at 10% the cost, I'll clearly compromise and take solace in the fact that i saved a few dinero and reaped a bit better sound ... same goes when I build computers and eons ago when i used to put together hot rods


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





black stuart said:


> Signal cables have only one function to perform - to relay  the input signal without adding or subtracting anything - ergo it should be 100% neutral - that is what those who make cables should strive for. Using cables to change the characteristics of a source is just plain wrong. A neutral signal cable should expose any shortcomings in the source (if they exist) and this allows component changes to be made to correct 'brightness or lumpy bass etc.


 

 It's fascinating how much trial and error must be involved in audio electronics if every component imparts a sound characteristic. If an audio designer believes that everything imparts its own sound, or reveals/covers other components, then obviously that designer would have his own belief or interpretation of accurate audio reproduction and would have to constantly refine his understanding of different audio component sound signatures. Not a territory I would ever enter, but I have much respect for people who do have the cojones for such empirical research.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> One question I don't understand, why would anybody care what another pays for a cable when obviously, it's a voluntary decision.  Especially when paying more than most are willing to spend on a set of headphones.


 

What's the harm?  The last resort of someone who knows that they don't have any evidence on their side.  Who cares if the rest of the world believes stupid thing for stupid reasons.  Well, I do.  We all have to share this planet and I think we'd do a lot better at it if people abandoned superstition and made decisions based on logic and empirical evidence.  Audiophoolery isn't quite in the same league as most of that other stuff, but its a symptom of the same lack of critical thinking and causes other far less benign outcomes.
   
  I'm not against people buying stupidly overpriced cables per se.  I'm against the sloppy thinking that leads people to buy them, think they do something, and pass on the information to others who lack Carl Sagan's 'Baloney Detection Kit' so they can be ripped off and perpetuate the cycle.
   
  Also, your comparisons to other people blowing money on other hobbies aren't valid.  Just about no one buys a sports car or a fishing boat because they ascribe magical powers to it.  They buy it because its cool.  If you bought some fancy cable because you like the way it looks or feels then I don't have a problem with that.  You made a reasoned decision about how much the look was worth to you.  Your budget and tastes are different from mine.  Assuming your family isn't starving because of it or something, I don't have any room to judge you, nor would I want to.  If you bought it because you think it will magically improve the sound of your headphones then not only can it actually be demonstrated that you were wrong, but it is symptomatic of a larger problem in the way in which you evaluate claims and make decisions.
   
  That is something I can judge.  I doesn't matter _what _you believe, it matters _why _you believe it.


----------



## haloxt

I notice no difference whatsoever between this debate and the debates that go on in religion and politics.
   
  People have already decided the other side is irrational, check.
   
  No one convinces the other side of anything, check.
   
  Both sides think science is on their side, check.
   
  Both sides can't differentiate between propositions and facts, check.
   
  Neither side actually are scientific, check.
   
  Truly, there is nothing new under the sun.


----------



## leeperry

haloxt said:


> I notice no difference whatsoever between this debate and the debates that go on in religion and politics.


 

 I really don't see any link between cables and religion...the ppl who believe in God were brainwashed to do so, they have their own truth and beliefs that have been imprinted in their brain.
   
  OTOH, it doesn't take much real world experience to realize that all the cables sound different....especially on headphones, which are highly sensitive components.


----------



## haloxt

Well, since you asked me that question I will play devil's advocate a bit hehe. It's true that pro-cablers sometimes wrongly believe with conviction that, for example, a $5000 interconnect "improves" the sound. In many ways, but not all, having a short hardwire connection is theoretically superior to having ANY cable, even if the cable costs a million dollars. Sometimes pro-cablers may completely overlook this fact when forming their opinions or making decisions about cables.
   
  In my mind, cables are usually just a necessary evil, or at least a theoretical evil, and should be treated as such. I'm not saying all the different factors in cables are therefore unimportant, but that we should not mistake cables as something that improves sound in most cases, but something that can prevent degradation, real or theoretical. Or else consider cables as something to tailor or tweak the sound to your liking.


----------



## spacemanspliff

Well, rewiring the headphone, like the headphile modded AKG 340 or ALO modded 780 which I had, makes a difference. To me, it was a huge improvement over stock. Like unclogging the drain. It let the music flow out far easier than before. Both headphones were modified though. Not just a cable switch. I think the diode board in the 780 was bypassed or removed and both were rewired internally.


----------



## Black Stuart

Haloxt,
  I agree with much of what you say but looking back on all the threads about cables I have never seen a single pro-cabler initiate offensive remarks. It is the utter BELIEF of the anti-cablers that they are right that is so funny and at the same time so dangerous when applied on a religious or political basis.
   
  Then up pops Limidglitch and Innerspace talking rationally and from real world experience, please more posts from you two.
   
  Haloxt made a spot on remark about designers and their interpretation of 'acccurate reproduction' - each of us brings their whole baggage into any appreciation of literally anything but honest experience in such cases will almost certainly yield an area of agreement  - would'nt it be terrible if we were all androids and had no differences at all - not a world that I would want to live in.
   
  Prog Rock man - if you had regaled us with your story about the Sony cable and ended with - was'nt I silly to buy that - but you did'nt - you were silly to buy on price but your ego can't take that. I'm always suspicious of those who are so certain they are right, it smacks of insecurity. Life has taught me that I can always be wrong and on my quest to make a really good i/c I took many wrong paths BUT I learned from all those mistakes far more than if I had got it right (my opinion) at the beginning.
   
  Steve Eddy - you made a ridiculous statement and have had ample chance to counter my agreement with Jenving - yawn does'nt do it.
   
  Albedo - bling is something you can see - you can't see what quality of conductor material has been used even inside Teflon tubing. Your religious quote says it all really BTW Luther was a rabid anti-Semite and his words were used extensively by the Nazis to justify their extermination campaign.
   
   When I lived in Spain I met this guy who decided to build a sound system for his converted Thames barge circa 1972 and one day he was in Maplins/UK (which used to carry a huge range of components for those who wanted to build hi-fi gear) and whilst waiting in the queue a man behind him said "I see your buying bits to build your own speakers, I've got a few friends coming round tonight to listen to music, your welcome to visit".
   
  So Phil turned up as arranged and an LP was put on the TT but after only one track it was removed and a discussion ensued about treble response bla bla bla - and so it went on for over 2 hours. Eventually Phil had had enough he said " when are we actually going to listen to some music" - as one they turned on him and said "sod the music we've got more important things to discuss" - at which point Phil left.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





limpidglitch said:


> You probably know this already, but there is a point at which the resistance will be too high.
> 
> If I remember correctly Roger Russell has recommended a maximum of 5% of the transducers nominal impedance.
> The maximum resistance will therefore vary between different headphones. With a 300Ω HD800 it will be 15Ω, or a 178 metre run of 24AWG copper wire. (disregarding the effects caused by increased capacitance and inductance)
> ...


 

 I used it with the Goldring NS1000 as its cable made by QED is too short for me. That headphone has a rating of; NR on 300ohms SPL 101, NR off 100ohms SPL 93 and I used it NR off. The actual Sony cable is this one from Amazon -
   
  http://www.amazon.co.uk/Earphone-Extension-Plated-Mobile-Phones/dp/B001PPGSMI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1285341557&sr=8-1
   
  , so between the two cables the total length was 2m.


----------



## limpidglitch

Ah, seems like you were in the clear then


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> One question I don't understand, why would anybody care what another pays for a cable when obviously, it's a voluntary decision.  Especially when paying more than most are willing to spend on a set of headphones.
> 
> If somebody is paying under a couple hundred dollars for a set of cans, if they weren't into cables, you think they'd pay four hundred bucks for a stupid set of cables as opposed to a better set of headphones?  Most folks buying habits are directly inline with available discretionary income.  If somebody likes buying fancy stainless steel gas grills, fancy rims, or a tricked out bass boat, does anybody care?  And if somebody wants to spend ten grand on a turntable, buy an expensive pair of skies or a tricked out snowmobile, is it anybody's business?  But somehow, for the anti-cable crowd, what others buy is now their business, raison d'etre, and they're going save the "naive" from the deception of those who manufacture, promote and use headphone cables.


 

 This question has been answered on numerous occasions. If people are presented with both sides of the argument and make a decision, fine. But on this and many other hifi forums and in the majority of hifi magazines, the consumer is presented with almost exclusively the pro-side's claims. This forum bans one of the anti-cable's prime arguments to one part of the forum. The anti-cable side is marginalised and the pro-cable side get to make very spurious claims about cable performance.
   
  All I want is a level playing field where people can make decisions based on both sides of the argument.


----------



## haloxt

Black Stuart, I mostly only poke fun at anti-cablers because they are usually the religiously fanatic. If pro-cablers made it a habit of harassing science forums with the sort of conviction anti-cablers have, I would be just as critical of them.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> I may have already done something similar to your suggestion haloxt. I bought a Sony headphone extension cable that did sound strangled and I had to turn the volume up to get a decent sound. It was very thin and tangled easily. Since it only cost £4 I then ditched it in favour of a £5 extension cable from ThatCable. I could turn the volume back down again and it did not tangle. I could get the same SQ out of both cables, but was happier with one over the other, so had psychoacoustic reasons to prefer it and there was a slight change in volume, which made it appear there was actually a difference.
> 
> I have no idea what the differences, if any in the awg of either cable.


 



  
  Quote: 





black stuart said:


> Haloxt,
> I agree with much of what you say but *looking back on all the threads about cables I have never seen a single pro-cabler initiate offensive remarks*. It is the* utter BELIEF of the anti-cablers that they are right that is so funny and at the same time so dangerous when applied on a religious or political basis.*
> 
> Then up pops Limidglitch and Innerspace talking rationally and from real world experience, please more posts from you two.
> ...


 
   
  You and Beeman have made offensive remarks. EDIT - and just spotted haloxt's post above, so I'll add him in as well. Please link to any offensive remark I have made and I will apologise for it.
   
  Your criticism of the anti-cable belief system applies more so to the pro side. If evidence of an actual property in a cable that accounts for audible sound differences from cables, then I and the majority of the anti side will keep doing what we are already doing and go with the evidence.
   
  I bought the wrong cable, realised my mistake and bought another one. I then in admitted that here. Where is the issue with ego there?


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





innerspace said:


> Apologies for the wordy post, but I have an observation based on practical, real-world, real-money-at-stake experience.
> 
> 1)  I worked many years in the production and broadcast industry.  Amps, microphones, mixers and speakers were bought by the dozens (sometimes by the hundreds) and consistency was very important.  A guy had to be able to work a week in one suite and then move to another without hearing differences in what he was doing.  We spent major effort making sure that the "XYZ Mk 2" we bought one month sounded like the exact same model we bought the previous month.  Manufacturers worked very, very hard to maintain consistency month to month and year to year.  It was very difficult, because - and this is slightly metaphysical, I know - any two items *are* by definition physically different, and therefore may sound different.  Even two supposedly identical things - two stock HP cables made on different days - are different.  Certainly two amps made in different months are different.
> 
> ...


 




  Quote: 





innerspace said:


> Mostly very minor to the ears - the grossest were between microphones, and even then there was only a vague impression of, "I don't like that one."  Differences between amp samples were generally real-world inaudible.  Cables, too.  My overall impression was (to use a scenario we can all relate to): if say, there is a 100-point difference (on some arbitrary scale) between a Sony XB700 and a Senn HD800, then amp sample differences might score* 0.01 points, and cable differences 0.0001 points.*  Just my two cents.


 

 Sorry, I don't follow the above highlighted comments. How does 'not even close' square with a difference of 0.01 and 0.0001?


----------



## Albedo

Quote:


black stuart said:


> Albedo - bling is something you can see - you can't see what quality of conductor material has been used even inside Teflon tubing. Your religious quote says it all really BTW Luther was a rabid anti-Semite and his words were used extensively by the Nazis to justify their extermination campaign.


   
  Me calling it bling was to some degree a cheap way to provoke when I wrapped it up with a Luther quote, but Jenving comment on silver vs. tin and retaining the oxidation to a bare minimum do make sense to me, both in a technical and economical way. Same goes for insulation, Teflon vs. Polyethylene and the most rational choice concerning low capacitance. That's why I see silver plated Ultra Pure Ohno Continuous Cast copper insulated with Teflon as a waste of money. On the other hand it sounds impressive, it rings a certain tone of exclusiveness in my mind.
   
  Though.. going all military and professional with the Japanese Mogami.. regular oxygen-free copper insulated with cross-linked polyethylene, if we continuing on the WWII thought.. it's rather appealing. You can call me a cable-nazi, but I'm sticking to my allies.


----------



## haloxt

Something you notice about anti-cablers is that they very often seem oblivious to the fact that there are many top audio manufacturers who "believe cables make a difference". Ask speaker companies and cable companies and most would tell you to run cables only the length you need to improve damping factor and prevent audible degradation in bass. It's almost like anti-cablers are trapped in their own little world where the enemy is the strawman of a person who refuses to believe in the "irrefutable" DBT that can prove anything.
   
  Anyone who is sane, I suggest you just walk away from this debate. The world will still go on, audio cable manufacturers will keep on improving cable specs and make adequate cables for professional use, boutique cable companies will still be selling $20/ft cables, anti-cablers will still be angry and argue impotently.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

There are also audio manufacturers who do not believe cables make a difference, McIntosh, Rega and Musical Fidelity for example. I have not see any anti-cable argument against your comment on cable length.
  Anti-cables are also open to other evidence as well as DBT, such as comparing a signal going in and out of a cable to see if there is a difference.
   
  Your last sentence is true for the pro-cable side as well.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> This question has been answered on numerous occasions. If people are presented with both sides of the argument and make a decision, fine. But on this and many other hifi forums and in the majority of hifi magazines, the consumer is presented with almost exclusively the pro-side's claims. This forum bans one of the anti-cable's prime arguments to one part of the forum. The anti-cable side is marginalised and the pro-cable side get to make very spurious claims about cable performance.
> 
> All I want is a level playing field where people can make decisions based on both sides of the argument.


 

 A level playing field .... Hah!
   
  Are cable experiences here discussed any differently from that of any other piece of gear here or in hifi magazines?  Does the fact that a piece of gear measures differently from another mean that it necessarily sounds better, much better... annihilates another, is on a different level from another etc. etc. etc.?
   
  I think it's just that you like discussing cables.  I see no altruistic intentions whatsoever, just as you hear no differences in cables that I do.  It's all about our minds playing tricks on us right?  We convince ourselves of all sorts of things that aren't really true.... right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





   
  Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Prog Rock Man:*
> You and Beeman have made offensive remarks.


 
   
  Not unprovoked.  Procablers usually are minding their own business while sharing their experiences.  They simply defend themselves when the going gets rough.  As I've said before... I'm always surprised at the man who complains about being bitten after he repeatedly kicks a sleeping dog previously known not be violent.
   
  Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> There are also audio manufacturers who do not believe cables make a difference, McIntosh, Rega and Musical Fidelity for example. I have not see any anti-cable argument against your comment on cable length.
> Anti-cables are also open to other evidence as well as DBT, such as comparing a signal going in and out of a cable to see if there is a difference.
> 
> Your last sentence is true for the pro-cable side as well.


 

 I think the point being made is that there's reputable opinion on both sides of the fence, not just on the anti-cable side.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> A level playing field .... Hah!
> 
> Are cable experiences here discussed any differently from that of any other piece of gear here or in hifi magazines?  Does the fact that a piece of gear measures differently from another mean that it necessarily sounds better, much better... annihilates another, is on a different level from another etc. etc. etc.?
> 
> ...


 

 It is not a level playing field here due to the DBT ban on the majority of the site.
   
  Cable debates get out of hand on most forums, I do think that this one is one of the worst.
   
  I think that equipment measurement is interesting, but I would not buy anything on a measurement alone.
   
  I think that you also like discussing cables, I obviously do. Now I know about the evidence which suggests cables make no difference, I do not hear a difference. I do not think that is my mind playing tricks, I think it is because my mind is no longer playing tricks on me.
   
  I have made a few comments on DBT elsewhere on the forum in the past, but have not pursed the matter and have stopped now. If anyone felt provoked by that I apologise. Bear in mind the sound science part of the forum is a free for all. Maybe it should have a rule of post only if you have evidence to back up what you say.
   
  Please show me where I have been offensive. Your sleeping dogs comment was also made on the theory of burn in thread. I asked you there to show any offensive comment I have made and there was no response. So I ask again. Bear in mind on that thread you made such an offensive comment it was removed by the moderators.
   
  I agree that there is reputable opinion on both sides of the debate. Based on those reputable opinions, I have moved from the pro to the anti side.


----------



## haloxt

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> I have not see any anti-cable argument against your comment on cable length.


 
   
  Whenever anti-cablers say there is no difference between cables, they are saying exactly that. Has it ever occurred to them to look at the variety in gauge aind length of different stock cables?
   
  Quote: 





> Anti-cables are also open to other evidence as well as DBT, such as comparing a signal going in and out of a cable to see if there is a difference.


 
   
  Have they done so? If they have, they would know there is a measurable and certainly audible difference if the cables are inadequate enough in gauge or length, and in some applications, when improperly shielded and in certain environments. To me, if an anti-cabler is going to say, for example, headphone cable upgrades make no difference, then I expect him to understand what sort of cables are used in stock headphones. There is a huge variety.
   
  Quote: 





> Your last sentence is true for the pro-cable side as well.


 
   
  Pro-cablers are angry at being provoked.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> It is not a level playing field here due to the DBT ban on the majority of the site.
> 
> Cable debates get out of hand on most forums, I do think that this one is one of the worst.
> 
> ...


 

 Hmmm.  I did get an offlist message about one or more of my messages being deleted because it quoted material from other posts that had been deleted.  I was reassured that my posts had not been deleted because of my breaking rules.
   
  Though I quoted your posts in particular, I did so since they provided great cues for point's I've wanted to make in general and felt like making now.
   
  Again, I do not wish to go through the exercise of what message of yours in particular that I consider offensive.  I genuinely don't see the point.  However, I do prefer discussing cables since it's multifaceted.  It's not only an interesting topic in its own right; but it also makes for an uncovering of inconsistent attitudes in general, especially among the anti-cablers who take positions of moral or intellectual high ground without any good reason for it other than failing to carefully observe one's own behaviour concerning things hifi in general.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





aimlink said:


> Hmmm.  I did get an offlist message about one or more of my messages being deleted because it quoted material from other posts that had been deleted.  I was reassured that my posts had not been deleted because of my breaking rules.
> 
> Though I quoted your posts in particular, I did so since they provided great cues for point's I've wanted to make in general and felt like making now.
> 
> Again, I do not wish to go through the exercise of what message of yours in particular that I consider offensive.  I genuinely don't see the point.  However, I do prefer discussing cables since it's multifaceted.  It's not only an interesting topic in its own right; but it also makes for an uncovering of inconsistent attitudes in general, especially among the anti-cablers who take positions of moral or intellectual high ground without any good reason for it other than failing to carefully observe one's own behaviour concerning things hifi in general.


 

 There you go again! Moral and intellectual high ground! Please link to examples of that. You make accusations and when asked to back them up, you refuse and don't see the point. Then you wonder why sometimes the anti-side does get a bit hacked off. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Personally I just see it as life on a forum, get hacked off, calm down and continue on. We are capable of provoking each other, often unintentionally.
   
  Anyway, back to the cables. I would agree that a very long extension cable, particularly one of high resistance is likely to be detrimental to sound quality. However, turning up the volume can counter that, but it may be to the pint that the music, whilst sounding fine is just too loud.
   
  I have repeatedly stated that volume due to attenuation is a difference cables can make. I just do not think that it is significant and justifies very high priced cable, particularly ones that have a higher resistance.


----------



## Albedo

Being a rationalist and not taking into account free will, but see the universe as Descartes make some a determinist. The consciousness is only a small part of our being if we view the rest as subconscious and not unconscious as many in the field of psychology tends to do. In doing so it makes one aspect-blind claiming others of being too concerned about the aesthetic and the feelings of their inner psychological states vs. fine-tuned objective experiences of the outer world. 
   
  There's always somethings that can't be explained, no matter how..
   
  I got ridiculed when I dampened my digital transport with a ridiculous amount of bitumen, but the so-called skeptics didn't know it all, it's not just ones and zeros.
   
  What about capsizing the discussion, how bad could a cable be..
   
  Is a curtain-hanger that good on shorter runs and is Ronson pipe cleaner to recessive in the upper mids, but not too sibilant and generally good transient response and ICE-like deep-bass, when comparing to a 75 ohm digital cable?
   

   
  As I have stated before, the curve (price vs. performance) flattens out in the High End domain.


----------



## beeman458

*maverickronin wrote:*
   
*What's the harm?*
   
*



*
   
  Baaaaaahahahahahahahaha!
   
  (Forgive my laughter but that was so over the top, I had to publicly laugh out loud.)
   
  FWIW, with all due respect, the mere act of anybody existing in the Universe, automatically becomes another person's threat.  When somebody throws up the Chicken Little defense, that's when I know rational has left the room.
   




   
*Also, your comparisons to other people blowing money on other hobbies aren't valid.*
   
  It's a vary valid analogy.  Anything that brings happiness is the same thing; pleasure.  Don't matter how you get there as long as it's legal or moral and much to other's chagrin, buying expensive cables is both legal and moral.
   
*Just about no one buys a sports car or a fishing boat because they ascribe magical powers to it.*
   
  Of course they do.  The magical power of making one feel good about themselves.
   
*They buy it because its cool.*
   
  Only the insecure need to be cool and anything that makes one feel cool is because of the magical powers they've ascribed to what ever it is they bought.
   
  If you don't want to buy cables, that's fine but unless someone's hanging themselves with them, there's absolutely no harm in doing so other than to those who can't stand somebody having fun.  It's their business, and only their business and they don't need anybody to save them.  What you're doing is called projecting and your "What's the harm?" link is total strawman.
   
*If you bought it because you think it will magically improve the sound of your headphones then not only can it actually be demonstrated that you were wrong, but it is symptomatic of a larger problem in the way in which you evaluate claims and make decisions.*
   
  Actually, there's no empirical proof cables don't work but if you want to think it's magic, that's on you.  As far as it being demonstrated, there's been no valid demonstrations, just a bunch of invalid test's, based on pseudo science, designed to create fail which faithfully serve the test giver's bias.  This is all well known but hey, you got your tests and I'm happy for you.  If dumping on another person's parade makes one happy, have at it.  In fact I'm happy for all the people who like dumping on other people's happiness.


----------



## beeman458

FWIW, it's all part of a chain from the origination of the electricity coming into the structure to the set of ears conveniently installed in our skull and one's awareness of what to do with them when they're called upon.  We all get there.  And how we get there, don't matter.  So I really don't understand this need by others who think they have a right to insert themselves into my and others lives over this matter.
   
  ???
   
  The point, we don't need to be saved.


----------



## Albedo

HiFiMAN HE-6 Planar headphone have a silver coil so.. sometimes it makes sense, but in most cases coils are of copper (OFC, UHPLC etc.). The weakest link in the chain are how strong the chain is, isn't it?


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Prog Rock Man* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> There you go again! Moral and intellectual high ground! Please link to examples of that. You make accusations and when asked to back them up, you refuse and don't see the point.
> 
> ...


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> Actually, there's no empirical proof cables don't work but if you want to think it's magic, that's on you.


 

 Just because we're not allowed to talk about it in this subforum doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  Big Brother can tell us all to ignore the pink elephant in the room, but we all know its still there.


----------



## beeman458

*Big Brother can tell us all to ignore the pink elephant in the room, but we all know its still there.*
   
  But what you're missing, just because Big Brother tells you there's a "pink elephant" in the room, don't mean there's an elephant to be seen.....anywhere.
   
  You can't hear a difference and you have your tests to make you feel good about yourself.  I'm happy for you.


----------



## PelPix

I have honestly reviewed again and again this subject.  I work with these materials.
  The lies are in the "MAGIC CABLE THAT MAKES ANYTHING BETTER!!!11!" marketing.  Headphone cable replacement isn't about replacing good cables with "better" ones, it's about replacing bad cables with good ones.  You can afford not to get new headphone cables if you have most headphones, because these stock cables are of reasonable material quality
   
  There are times when it would make a significant difference to buy a replacement headphone cable.  This is not because the headphone cables are magically better than normal cables.  It's usually because the stock cables are bad and could benefit from being replaced with literally almost anything.
   
  In conclusion, if you have, say, an AKG k702, you won't stand to gain much except some resolved crosstalk issues, but the HD800 demands cable replacement because the cable that comes with it is just so terrible.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





haloxt said:


> Have they done so? If they have, they would know there is a measurable and certainly audible difference if the cables are inadequate enough in gauge or length, and in some applications, when improperly shielded and in certain environments. To me, if an anti-cabler is going to say, for example, headphone cable upgrades make no difference, then I expect him to understand what sort of cables are used in stock headphones. There is a huge variety.


 
   
  Sure. It's certainly possible to make a cable with such pathologically high resistance, inductance and/or capacitance that it would produce an audible difference.
   
  However the more salient point is that it's trivially easy to make one that doesn't.
   
  se


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Sure. It's certainly possible to make a cable with such pathologically high resistance, inductance and/or capacitance that it would produce an audible difference.
> 
> *However the more salient point is that it's trivially easy to make one that doesn't.*
> 
> se


 

  
  I couldn't agree more, but the fact is that somehow, some horrifying mistake has caused the designers over at sennheiser to make the HD800's cables terrible despite the fact that a monkey with a pair of scissors could make a low resistance cable.


----------



## wmf

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> I have honestly reviewed again and again this subject.  I work with these materials.
> The lies are in the "MAGIC CABLE THAT MAKES ANYTHING BETTER!!!11!" marketing.  Headphone cable replacement isn't about replacing good cables with "better" ones, it's about replacing bad cables with good ones.  You can afford not to get new headphone cables if you have most headphones, because these stock cables are of reasonable material quality
> 
> There are times when it would make a significant difference to buy a replacement headphone cable.  This is not because the headphone cables are magically better than normal cables.  It's usually because the stock cables are bad and could benefit from being replaced with literally almost anything.
> ...


 
   
  i believe stock cables on "most" headphones are of below to average quality  ....


----------



## Aynjell

Has anyone ever noticed that cable arguments are the most fun threads on the forum? They degenerate into almost 4chan like banter/worthlessness.


----------



## Albedo

Hmm..
  Sennheiser HD 800: 





> Connecting cable: silver-plated, oxygen-free (OFC) copper cable, symmetrical, Kevlar reinforced, 3 m. In terms of connectivity, these headphones utilize specially-designed, four-wire, high-performance connections with Teflon insulation.


 
   
  So is the trick to shorten the cable and change for better insulation (polyethylene) with lower capacitance?


----------



## leeperry

aynjell said:


> Has anyone ever noticed that cable arguments are the most fun threads on the forum? They degenerate into almost 4chan like banter/worthlessness.


 
   
  one side w/ the "magical thinking" placebo ppl(that need to be saved) and the other w/ the tone deaf ppl that know better and need to convince the other side no matter what...pick yours


----------



## beeman458

*leeperry wrote:*
   
*one side w/ the "magical thinking" placebo ppl(that need to be saved)*
   
  You know you're an addict when you don't want to be saved.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> I have honestly reviewed again and again this subject.  I work with these materials.
> The lies are in the "MAGIC CABLE THAT MAKES ANYTHING BETTER!!!11!" marketing.  Headphone cable replacement isn't about replacing good cables with "better" ones, it's about replacing bad cables with good ones.  You can afford not to get new headphone cables if you have most headphones, because these stock cables are of reasonable material quality
> 
> There are times when it would make a significant difference to buy a replacement headphone cable.  This is not because the headphone cables are magically better than normal cables.  It's usually because the stock cables are bad and could benefit from being replaced with literally almost anything.
> ...


 

 In what way is the HD800 cable so terrible?


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> ..........
> 
> Actually, there's no empirical proof cables don't work but if you want to think it's magic, that's on you.  As far as it being demonstrated, there's been no valid demonstrations, just a bunch of invalid test's, based on pseudo science, *designed to create fail* which faithfully serve the test giver's bias.  This is all well known but hey, you got your tests and I'm happy for you.  If dumping on another person's parade makes one happy, have at it.  In fact I'm happy for all the people who like dumping on other people's happiness.


 

 The above repeatedly made assertion is wrong. There are tests which do not fail. If such tests were designed to fail they would fail with everything. In fact they fail with cables but tend to pass with amplifiers, speakers and codecs. So that leads to the conclusion there is no difference with cables that is audible, but there is with amps etc, all-be-it a smaller one than many would expect. Examples here -
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/513481/are-blind-tests-bogus-examples-of-blind-tests-with-positive-results#post_6951431


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> In what way is the HD800 cable so terrible?


 

 Damn. Beat me to it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  se


----------



## Albedo

It’s fairly common for people who are over 25 years of age to not be able to hear above 15kHz, so this will help you find out where your high frequency hearing cuts off -> http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2009/03/can-you-hear-this-hearing-test/
   
  For some it may be of importance -> http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables
   
  How much is another matter of concern.


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Sorry, I don't follow the above highlighted comments. How does 'not even close' square with a difference of 0.01 and 0.0001?


 
  Because 0.01 is a hundred times larger than 0.0001 ... which is not even close IMO.  Unless you think the Empire State Building is more or less the same size as your house.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





albedo said:


> It’s fairly common for people who are over 25 years of age to not be able to hear above 15kHz, so this will help you find out where your high frequency hearing cuts off -> http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2009/03/can-you-hear-this-hearing-test/
> 
> For some it may be of importance -> http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables
> 
> How much is another matter of concern.


 

 I am typical over 25 as hearing goes. Hence the Mosquito, a product designed to deter teenagers hanging about by fitting a device that emits high frequency noise that they can hear, but the rest of us cannot. The idea being it annoys the teenagers, who then move off elsewhere.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





			
				Prog Rock Man said:
			
		

> In what way is the HD800 cable so terrible?


 

 I wonder too since I don't really hear a difference between it and my Cardas.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





innerspace said:


> Because 0.01 is a hundred times larger than 0.0001 ... which is not even close IMO.  Unless you think the Empire State Building is more or less the same size as your house.


 

 I meant you said the difference was not even close and then you said between amps it is 0.01 and cables at 0.0001 which is in real world in-audible. That was why I did not understand why you would say not even close. Not the difference between 0.01 and 0.0001.


----------



## InnerSpace

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> I meant you said the difference was not even close and then you said between amps it is 0.01 and cables at 0.0001 which is in real world in-audible. That was why I did not understand why you would say not even close. Not the difference between 0.01 and 0.0001.


 
   
  PRM, sorry, I must not have been clear.  I said technically the captured bitstreams between cables were arithmetically dissimilar (to the point of being "not even close") but those dissimilarities carried very little audible consequence.
   
  The 0.01 and 0.0001 stuff was a way of trying to set a context ... the difference between "identical" amp samples might be ten thousand times smaller than the difference between an XB700 and an HD800.  The difference between cables might be a million times smaller.  Obviously, placing number values on things is ridiculous - agreed - but I hope you get my point, which was that once you have broadly decided on an amp, say, or a headphone, your time would be better spent auditioning identical samples of that chosen gear, not cables.
   
  One minor note about DBT ... while being very enthusiastic about the principle, audio DBTing carries a corrupting factor, which is that the testee is put on the spot in ways that are psychologically stressful.  In a medical DBT, for a blood pressure drug, say, the testee doesn't know what he's getting and the tester doesn't know what he's giving, but the results are calculated later, often by a dispassionate third party.  The testee isn't questioned live: "Well?  Well??  How does your blood pressure feel now?  That buzzing in your head?  Is it quieter or louder?  Come on - answer me, damn it!!"
   
  Not that some of the bolder audibility claims don't deserve some stress, but hey.  In my experience, real audio improvements - especially the high-end to higher-end transitions - are very subtle and almost subliminal, in that you suddenly realize you've been listening two hours longer than usual, or that you're even more relaxed than usual, etc.  Very hard to quantify, and very hard to talk about.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Thanks Inner Space for clearing that up for me. Great posts


----------



## Permagrin

I'm totally digging the recent posts but let's go to the other side for a second...
   
  If there's a possibility that not all stock cables are of sufficient quality...
   
  Perhaps we could identify those instances and be able to help those who wonder if a cable upgrade is practical.
   
  That could actually be a service to these forums.
   
  Just a thought.


----------



## BIG POPPA

It would be a little difficult to label something practical if everybody has different budgets for this hobby. To one person a 400.00 headphone cable is not doable for them, to another it may be how many can I buy?
  
  Quote: 





permagrin said:


> If there's a possibility that not all stock cables are of sufficient quality...
> 
> Perhaps we could identify those instances and be able to help those who wonder if a cable upgrade is practical.


----------



## Albedo

Quote: 





permagrin said:


> Perhaps we could identify those instances and be able to help those who wonder if a cable upgrade is practical.
> 
> That could actually be a service to these forums.
> 
> Just a thought.


 
  .. and a really good one, the cost of not being DIY and relaying on a technician to do the soldering don't cost anything, as the exchange of information in between in most cases is enough.


----------



## Aynjell

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> one side w/ the "magical thinking" placebo ppl(that need to be saved) and the other w/ the tone deaf ppl that know better and need to convince the other side no matter what...pick yours
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Do I HAVE to? I don't know where I stand, though I lean towards cables being baloney. If it's not measurable it's sure not audible.


----------



## beeman458

*BIG POPPA wrote:*
   
*To one person a 400.00 headphone cable is not doable for them, to another it may be how many can I buy?*
   
  And there's those in the middle: "Oh what the hey."  As much money as I have thrown at this hobby in the past and the present, $400.00 for a headphone cable, should I get anything out of the deal, is money well spent.  I got something out of the deal, an improvement in sound quality, so what do I care what the "Buzz Kill Crew" have to write.
   
  ???
   
  It's all synergy anyways.  From taming the power that comes into the wall to creating a usable sound wave to tickle our ear drum and everything in the middle.


----------



## leeperry

aynjell said:


> Do I HAVE to? I don't know where I stand


 

 Compare a bunch of cables, and see how that goes...something directly in the headphones audio path is better. All the cables sound different, even Stevie Wonder can see that.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *beeman458* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> so what do I care what the "Buzz Kill Crew" have to write.


 

 Yup.  The truth is often a buzz kill.  If I actually had a choice, I'd pick fantasy any day as well.


----------



## beeman458

*Yup.  The truth is often a buzz kill.  If I actually had a choice, I'd pick fantasy any day as well.*
   
  And since I don't live in a fantasy world, your above is a personal perspective thingy as I get a buzz from the truth and the truth, I hear a difference.  And this point alone ticks the Buzz Kill Crew off.  Why?  Because they can't hear a difference.  So, to make themselves feel good about themselves, they have to go around raining on everybody's parade; buzz kill.


----------



## leeperry

anyway, why do the believers have to prove anything? if you like $0.99 cables/adapters off ebay using metal from recycled canned food, more power to you!
   
  I also can't stand plastic glasses, everyone seems to love them...but this time I've got specs such as the constringence to back up the lack of sharpness I'm seeing. 59 Abbe on 1.5 mineral glass, 32 on Polycarbonate...which ends up being a chromatic aberrations feast \o/


----------



## Aynjell

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> Compare a bunch of cables, and see how that goes...something directly in the headphones audio path is better. All the cables sound different, even Stevie Wonder can see that.


 

 I have a 400$ ALO Audio cable sitting in my living room right now. It's not necessarily mine (though it can be, if I win the raffle for the meet I'm organizing).  I will get a chance to try it soon. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  If I win it, the obvious choice between it and the stock cable leaves me with that, since it's so much nicer and at the very least could up the value of the headphones they're plugged into. It does look really pretty.


----------



## BIG POPPA

Those in the middle know how to make their own. The trick to making cables is to find out what has synergy with your gear. Not to hard to learn.
  
  Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *BIG POPPA wrote:*
> 
> *To one person a 400.00 headphone cable is not doable for them, to another it may be how many can I buy?*
> 
> ...


----------



## leeperry

aynjell said:


> I have a 400$ ALO Audio cable sitting in my living room right now. It's not necessarily mine (though it can be, if I win the raffle for the meet I'm organizing).  I will get a chance to try it soon.
> 
> If I win it, the obvious choice between it and the stock cable leaves me with that, since it's so much nicer and at the very least could up the value of the headphones they're plugged into. It does look really pretty.


 

 No matter how you good they'll sound, $400 for a cable is a plain rip off...especially if they're just made of copper. If they were solid silver w/ gold plating and rhodium plugs yada yada, then OK you're actually getting something for your money(even if it's still grossly overpriced). $400 for OFC copper means that they got it for $10/20 in China, put it in an imaginary cryo bath and made a $380 markup.
   
  I like to plug my phone directly to my DAC to get a clear idea of how my opamps sound, and I've compared many cables/adapters:
  -the best is the Y cable provided w/ the Asus Essence soundcards, very tight/clear bass, natural sounding mids and very wide SS
  -many other cables either DIY(using Neutrik plugs) or gold plated/nice looking = the sound was mushy and really not clear in comparison
  -the worst I've tried was this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270613187853
   
  gold plated, but gold plated what? I've cracked it open, it's the cheapest metal you could find and the piece of metal that takes care of the ground isn't soldered or even gold plated...it's obviously made of the cheapest metal they could source in China.
   
  how does it sound? major lack of resolution my friend! I've even tried to solder some TWcu cryo-parts wire to take care of the ground, slight improvement but still lacking resolution.
   
  A friend of mine has hooked me up w/ some cheap mundorf 99% silver/1% gold wire and some UPOCC solid silver, and I've just ordered some silver plated RCA's...time will tell!
   
  I will also try those wires for coax S/PDIF.


----------



## portlandjosh

first post!  I am firmly in the camp that believes that measurements don't lie.


----------



## leeperry

portlandjosh said:


> I am firmly in the camp that believes that measurements don't lie.


 

 What comparisons have you done? on what gear? I know we're not in the science forum, but it's good to detail how you came to this conclusion.


----------



## beeman458

*BIG POPPA wrote:*
   
*Not to hard to learn.*
   
  Not hard at all, but, I don't want to learn how.  Me?  I just want to sit on my butt, all night long, ripping bit perfect WAV files to be sacrificed to the newly acquired DAC that should be here on Wednesday.
   
  "Yeah, baby!"




   
*leeperry wrote:*
   
*No matter how you good they'll sound, $400 for a cable is a plain rip off...especially if they're just made of copper.*
   
  Now, now.  First they'll be acquired free, so they won't be paying a penny for them.  Second, value is the domain of those who are hitting the hip, with their money.  Value is not up to anybody but the consumer to decide as they, and they alone are the final arbiter of "value."
   
  Me?  I paid $380.00 for my cables and I got what I paid for and I'm happy with what I bought.  Now, who gets to decide value and my happiness and why should either of these points be anybody's business but my own?  I don't feel "rip off" and I'm enjoying heck out of my cables.  Shouldn't you be happy for me?
   
  ???


----------



## BIG POPPA

I'm old school, Still use a CD player.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *BIG POPPA wrote:*
> 
> *Not to hard to learn.*
> 
> ...


----------



## beeman458

*BIG POPPA wrote:*
   
*I'm old school, Still use a CD player.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*
   
  So am I and I too use a CD player.........to do a bit perfect rip to the HDD.
   




   
  FWIW, the Adcom is up at the retirement home and when I'm permanently parked there in a couple of months, and the DAC and the headphone amp are setup, I'll hook up the CDP and try spinning again but to tell you the truth, using the computer as a jukebox is sooooooo much better than spinning.
   
  krmathis, in the "Music" forum recommended buying and downloading a copy of dBpoweramp to do bit perfect rips with.  Well worth the thirty-eight bucks and you get what's on the CD.  If you don't know already, doing bit perfect rips is a good thing.


----------



## leeperry

beeman458 said:


> Value is not up to anybody but the consumer to decide as they, and they alone are the final arbiter of "value."


 
   
  $400 for an OFC cable is not a good deal value-speaking,  hard to say the opposite? Now if it thrills you and gives you the chills each time you listen to it, then OK you've made a stellar deal.


----------



## BIG POPPA

X2
  
  Quote: 





leeperry said:


> $400 for an OFC cable is not a good deal value-speaking,  hard to say the opposite? Now if it thrills you and gives you the shills each time you listen to it, then OK you've made a stellar deal.


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> In what way is the HD800 cable so terrible?


 

 Not only is it made out of undesirable materials that interact badly with the headphone (Silver plated copper in general is a terrible choice for the HD800), the materials themselves aren't of a very high grade.
  I could make a better cable out of coathangers from a department store and a pair of scissors.  They're honestly just that bad in overall design
   
  The headphones are amazing though.
  I don't take either side of this argument.  The HD800 is the only set of headphones I think would benefit noticeably from a replacement cable, and that's a technical problem in the design of the cable, not some sort of magic hooblah.  The majority of other headphones will see only minor improvements, if any.  For example, I heard an improvement in the definition of stereo pan when I swapped out my stock k702 cable for a DHC Molecule.  Could I have lived happily without it? Absolutely.


----------



## beeman458

*$400 for an OFC cable is not a good deal value-speaking,  hard to say the opposite? *
   
  Value is the realm of the buyer and not the critic.  Only the buyer can determine value and nobody else.  So yes, as a consumer of said cable, it's very easy to say the opposite.  As to thrills, the human mind acclimates to everything from a political win to heroin so for me, that's where it's at; it's not about thrills, it's about sound quality and being happy and moving forward to what ever the next step is.  What it's not about, are the headphone cables as I'm so past the headphone cables as I'm now having fun (and that's said with tongue in cheek as it's not fun) with a bit-perfect ripping program that I bought today as I'm waiting for a DAC to arrive middle next week and I want the library to be up to speed.
   
  I'm curious, how much of a waxing do people take on their gear when they buy, resell and step-up to new gear before you jump in and say; "Whoa fella, you getting ripped here."  Do you jump in every time someone goes to a store somewhere and pays more than you think reasonable or rational, say in the case of a women buying a pair of shoes?  I mean come on, they're for walking.  Oh, and for the record, I encourage my wife to buy lots and lots of shoes.  Why?  It makes her happy.
   
  Here's to happy wives.


----------



## leeperry

> Originally Posted by *beeman458* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> it's not about thrills, it's about sound quality [..]
> ...


 
   
  1) they go in hand in hand for me, my favorite cables thrill me...I'm in this hobby to be thrilled.
   
  as I'm typing this, I'm listening to my favorite analog/digital cables, they color the sound as much opamps to my ears and definitely thrill me! and it's not a one day thrill based on placebo, it's happening everyday
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  the cables I don't like bore me to death.
   
  2) I dont agree either....when you buy very expensive shoes, they're tailor made and using the best leather you could find.


----------



## Aynjell

Quote: 





beeman458 said:


> *$400 for an OFC cable is not a good deal value-speaking,  hard to say the opposite? *
> 
> Value is the realm of the buyer and not the critic.  Only the buyer can determine value and nobody else.  So yes, as a consumer of said cable, it's very easy to say the opposite.  As to thrills, the human mind acclimates to everything from a political win to heroin so for me, that's where it's at; it's not about thrills, it's about sound quality and being happy and moving forward to what ever the next step is.  What it's not about, are the headphone cables as I'm so past the headphone cables as I'm now having fun (and that's said with tongue in cheek as it's not fun) with a bit-perfect ripping program that I bought today as I'm waiting for a DAC to arrive middle next week and I want the library to be up to speed.
> 
> ...


 
  I only know one person who understands my music equipment obsession. And I got him into it.


----------



## beeman458

*2) I dont agree either....when you buy very expensive shoes, they're tailor made and using the best leather you could find.*
   
  Nobody wrote anything about the very expensive, tailor made or using the best leather.
   
  Do you notice how you're projecting your values on others?  It's not about agreeing, it's about their happiness and if it's legal or moral and makes em happy, good for them.  If somebody has it to spend, bless them as they're stimulating the economy.  And that's a good thing.
   
  Anyjell, here's to appeasing obsessions, where ever they may lie.


----------



## beeman458

*leeperry wrote:*
   
*as I'm typing this, I'm listening to my favorite analog/digital cables,*
   
  Me, I'm being fed bit-perfect and it's wonderful.


----------



## leeperry

beeman458 said:


> I'm being fed bit-perfect and it's wonderful.


 

 I'm not seeking bit-perfect audio for several reasons:
   
  1) http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tips-techniques/334385-intersample-peaks.html
   
  2) http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
   
  3) I need crossfeed to make my brain happy and not feel like my ears are fubar.
   
  what's the point to have killer wire if the sound's clipping and resonating like hell in your ear canals...I still use a bit-perfect audio renderer and transport.


----------



## leeperry

beeman458 said:


> Nobody wrote anything about the very expensive, tailor made or using the best leather.
> 
> Do you notice how you're projecting your values on others?


 
   
  Hah! a cheap cable costs $1, yours costs $400. A basic pair of shoes cost $30, so we're talking about $1.2K shoes...I sure as hell expect them to be tailor made out of the most amazing leather.


----------



## beeman458

*leeperry wrote:*
   
*if the sound's clipping and resonating like hell in your ear canals...*
   
  But the sound's not clipping and the resonance was put there by the sound engineer.  Bit perfect is a duplication of the CD and with bit perfect, there's no need for a DSP or to EQ the sound.  So I'm not sure your point.
   
  ???
   
*A basic pair of shoes cost $30,*
   
  I can see you haven't been shopping with your wife lately.  With your effort to play gotcha, you missed the point of the post.  The point, it's about a women being happy, not another projecting their values on her regarding what's constitutes value oriented shopping.
   
*Hah! a cheap cable costs $1, yours costs $400. A basic pair of shoes cost $30, so we're talking about $1.2K shoes...*
   
  A suggestion, while you're working on your gotcha moment, you might want to rework your math to reconcile with the price of a replacement headphone cable bought from Sennheiser and then do the multiples.  I can see, for what ever reason, you don't want me to enjoy my life.  Pretty sad when you think of it.


----------



## leeperry

beeman458 said:


> But the sound's not clipping and the resonance was put there by the sound engineer.  Bit perfect is a duplication of the CD and with bit perfect, there's no need for a DSP or to EQ the sound.  So I'm not sure your point.
> [..]
> With your effort to play gotcha, you missed the point of the post.  The point, it's about a women being happy
> [..]
> you might want to rework your math to reconcile with the price of a replacement headphone cable bought from Sennheiser and then do the multiples.


 

 1) I don't think you checked my links
   
  2) I didn't realize that we were in a "make your wife happy by buying her $1.2K shoes" thread, and I've got no interest in Sennheiser headphones. They make high markups on their replacecement earpads and cables I presume? Why wouldn't they.


----------



## beeman458

*1) I don't think you checked my links*
   
  Sure I did.  And I also checked my ears.
   
  "Dammit Jim, I'm a Pest Control Operator, not a Sound Engineer."  And after what I've been through, the clipping is gone and I'm a happy camper.
   
  2) I didn't realize that we were in a "make your wife happy by buying her $1.2K shoes" thread,
   
  We're not and no where did I do that as you ran with the analogy of making people happy, your need to be a buzz kill and extrapolating the price of cheap headphone cables into $1,200.00 shoes.  The point was, let people be happy and don't project your unhappiness on others.  If one's happiness is found in expensive headphone cables or a closet full of shoes, be happy for them.  And in the same light, if you don't want either a closet full of shoes or a set of expensive headphone cables, I'm happy for you.


----------



## Albedo

I wonder if someone can hear a difference between OFC and OCC copper both insulated with polyethylene, but I wouldn't bother when Mogami W2534 are under a dollar pr. foot. If one can't do the soldering and willing to pay $90 to get the job done there's always eBay -> http://cgi.ebay.com/8-Sennheiser-Headphone-Cable-Cardas-Neutrik-Mogami-/400133426393?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d29cf8cd9
   
   
  Is it worth hundreds of dollars?
   
  No says this member -> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/472565/comparison-of-headphone-cable-upgrades-for-the-sennheiser-hd-650-artisan-cable-silver-dream-vs-stefan-audioart-equinox


----------



## Prog Rock Man

I am all for people spending thousands on headphone cables, so long as they have heard both sides of the argument, pro and anti before hand. The shoe analogy is a good one. Some do find designer, expensive shoes enhance their lives, just as my hifi enhances mine.
   
  I have come around to the pro-side view of live and let live. So would the pro-side be more open to the issue that many cable 'science' claims are spurious and to use another analogy, are akin to the 'science' used to sell many cosmetics?


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> I have come around to the pro-side view of live and let live. So would the pro-side be more open to the issue that many cable 'science' claims are spurious and to use another analogy, are akin to the 'science' used to sell many cosmetics?


 

 All of hifi-dom is like that.  Why single out cables??


----------



## leeperry

prog rock man said:


> would the pro-side be more open to the issue that many cable 'science' claims are spurious and to use another analogy, are akin to the 'science' used to sell many cosmetics?


 

 Well, not all cosmetics are based on bs...some components are known to be effective, such as hyaluronic acid. The problem is that this ingredient is not expensive, my fav. face cream is using it together w/ some ingredients that provide me w/ a very soft and healthy skin...and yet it costs $15 for 40ml.
   
  Of course Shiseido and Chanel will sell you creams using the same ingredients together w/ some voodoo magic for $250.
   
  solid silder and rhodium plugs do "work", but these aren't nearly as expensive as what some resellers are claiming. they don't sell you cables, they sell you their R&D to find the best sounding wire...a lot of trial and error obviously, and they're selling you their time for top dollar.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Again I think that analogy works. Buying very expensive cables is like buying very expensive face cream, cheaper stuff will do the same. But, there is good scientific evidence that neither actually work. I saw a programme on TV, I cannot remember what it was, but it featured a long term (years) face cream test on a number of twins where one did not use any and the other did. At the end the cream made no difference to the skin as other factors had far more of an impact. One twin felt better about using the cream, the other felt better about not having spent any money on the cream and having it for other things.
   
  I believe that cables themselves do not make a difference as other factors; placebo, psychoacoustics have a far greater impact. I now feel better as I will not have to spend any money on such. Others will feel better from paying out shed loads on them.


----------



## leeperry

well, some ppl have a more sensitive skin than others...taking a study made on two random twins and comparing it to audio cables is called circular logic, aka "chick logic".
   
  if after a lot of REAL WORLD experiments, you honestly feel that all the cables sound the same....well, more power to you! it will save you a lot of headaches.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Or it is an analogy to help make a point. Yes, I will save money and now I enjoy my system more as I have lost the doubts that the desire to 'upgrade' create.
   
  Power to me for not needing to buy upgraded headphone cables and power to others for wanting them.


----------



## bergman2

i don't choose components based on "feel" but objective assessment -- does it sound ! ... why does it seem that all these threads degenerate into flame wars, bouts of lunacy, and charges of religious dementia???


----------



## leeperry

I still rest my case that a good sounding cable doesn't necessarily cost $400. I find it pathetic to solder a $400 snake-oil cable on a $250 HFI-780 for instance....Take your $650 and find a better phone, polishing turds is not rewarding. It never will be.
   
  Now if you have all the top phones and feel the urge to buy $800 cables, it's silly but everyone's allowed to burn his money the way he fancies.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> I still rest my case that a good sounding cable doesn't necessarily cost $400. I find it pathetic to solder a $400 snake-oil cable on a $250 HFI-780 for instance....Take your $650 and find a better phone, polishing turds is not rewarding. It never will be.
> 
> Now if you have all the top phones and feel the urge to buy $800 cables, it's silly but everyone's allowed to burn his money the way he fancies.


 

 The point is that having all the top headphones could be argued as a very silly thing.  My wife certainly thought me silly for having all the cans that I have and I can certainly understand how she felt from her POV.  However, she now teases and realizes that I do enjoy this stuff which is the point about it all. So in the end, there's no point in putting value on things in this way.  It's your own personal standard and not an absolute one.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





bergman2 said:


> . why does it seem that all these threads degenerate into flame wars, bouts of lunacy, and charges of religious dementia???


 

 Some feel that they're smarter than others and wish to make this public.  Some feel they have better value judgements than others and also wish to make this public.  The technical side of the discussion becomes secondary because the technical arguments are quite quickly covered.
   
  I decided on another replacement cable for my HD800's.  How's that for being silly?


----------



## leeperry

aimlink said:


> The point is that having all the top headphones could be argued as a very silly thing.  My wife certainly thought me silly for having all the cans that I have and I can certainly understand how she felt from her POV.


 

 Your  profile is empty so it'd hard to get an idea, but I also find it uncalled for to have 15 headphones...provided that we still only have 2 ears in the end. Anyway, some ppl collect cars, some stamps...some headphones, as simple as that.
   
  The problem w/ grossly overpriced goods such as audiophool cables is the stellar markups and the raving reviews, that look like nothing more than shills...who got them for free. Free cables sound very good.
   
  The OP was "Is it worth hundreds of dollars for upgraded headphone cables?", it all depends...buying a $400 cable for a $250 HFI-780 fed from an ipod might be "worth" it, it's indeed a personal decision.
   
  I'm from Team DIY, there's nothing more exhilarating than soldering some cables or opamps and listen to them


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Your  profile is empty so it'd hard to get an idea, but I also find it uncalled for to have 15 headphones...provided that we still only have 2 ears in the end. Anyway, some ppl collect cars, some stamps...some headphones, as simple as that.
> 
> ...


----------



## leeperry

aimlink said:


> I don't see what's new here.


   
  What's new here is that some ppl buy copper for the price of gold, and possibly platinum.


----------



## aimlink

Quote:  


> What's new here is that some ppl buy copper for the price of gold, and possibly platinum.


 
   
  They are purchasing an experience.  You're seeing the nuts and bolts for what they really are.   There's no intrinsic value in gold or platinum.  We put value in them through concensus.  No?  If you take the idea the whole distance, it's liberating.  If you apply it only as it suites you to, then it's an obstacle.  So isn't this a consensus issue?  Some see value in cables that others don't?  Some are tolerant about the difference, while others aren't?


----------



## PelPix

Why do we still have these threads?  Neither side will ever convince the other.  It will never happen.  Why try for hundreds of pages when you could be spending this valuable time doing something productive?


----------



## beeman458

*Why try for hundreds of pages when you could be spending this valuable time doing something productive?*
   
  What you don't understand, mindlessly wasting your time here, is therapeutic.  Therefore, by nature, becomes, in of itself, productive.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Not only is it made out of *undesirable materials* that *interact badly* with the headphone (Silver plated copper in general is a* terrible choice* for the HD800), the materials themselves *aren't of a very high grade.*
> I could make a *better cable out of coathangers* from a department store and a pair of scissors.  They're honestly *just that bad* in overall design
> 
> ................


 

 I do not believe any of the above. Is there anything else that can back up what you have claimed?


----------



## PelPix

Well I suppose since what defines a material as suitable is what it does to the sound, I guess there's no real way to determine whether or not silver plated copper is a good material, because there will always be people that rather like the sound of it.  I'm saying that the material results in the HD800 being somewhat uneven in frequency response.  Whether or not this is actually a beneficial change depends on the person listening.
   
  "Better cables out of coathangers" isn't as much of an insult as it sounds.  The alloy in most coathangers actually makes a rather good solid-core cable.  That entire post sounds a bit nasty now that I re-read it.  I'm sorry, I should have explained more.


----------



## PelPix

I'm going to attempt to write up exactly _why_ the silver-plated copper is a bad material for audio.
  Silver plated copper is used in cables because radio frequencies don't have the energy to penetrate that far beyond the silver.  Even if it did, changes in the DC resistance would be negligible at radio frequencies.  Therefore, everything works fine!
   
  ...For radio frequencies.
  Audio frequencies are a bit different.  Because of the difference in frequency, changes in the DC resistance that were inconsequential before can now quite noticeably change the impedance between materials.  If there are two materials, the signal is split into two, and the two signals are traveling at different speeds.  When this hits the speaker end, all **** breaks loose.
It's a much better idea to use solid copper, solid silver, or really solid _anything._  Dual-material cables are a horrible idea.
You could think of it as half of the signal moving through water and half of the signal moving through honey.
The only reason you should ever _need_ to replace a headphone cable is if it's silver plated copper.  Anything else would be inconsequential.
   
  I don't take sides in the cables argument.  If I did, it might even be on the anti-cables side.  The HD800's silver-plated copper cables are the lone exception to this, because they have a legitimate design problem.


----------



## Aynjell

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> I'm going to attempt to write up exactly _why_ the silver-plated copper is a bad material for audio.
> Silver plated copper is used in cables because radio frequencies don't have the energy to penetrate that far beyond the silver.  Even if it did, changes in the DC resistance would be negligible at radio frequencies.  Therefore, everything works fine!
> 
> ...For radio frequencies.
> ...


 
   
  Wouldn't the signal prefer one over the other anyway?


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





aynjell said:


> Wouldn't the signal prefer one over the other anyway?


 

 Prefer, yes, but not exclusively use.  It was a mistake to use "half" to describe how the signal is split.  It's much more disproportionate than that.  It can split by frequency, which can horribly upset the frequency response of the sound when it is reproduced by the cans.  This makes the sound even worse than if the signal didn't prefer one of the materials!


----------



## leeperry

pelpix said:


> The only reason you should ever _need_ to replace a headphone cable is if it's silver plated copper.  Anything else would be inconsequential.


 

 Which matches w/ the last post in this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/250436/silver-plated-copper-wire-how-good#post_3160410
   
  I fully agree when he says that the purer the copper, the more bassy and "one note bass" it gets...and also that each strand adds up its own distortion.
   
  I can't wait for my solid silver UPOCC wire to arrive! I've bought silver plated plugs too, but they're not copper...more like nickel.


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> Which matches w/ the last post in this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/250436/silver-plated-copper-wire-how-good#post_3160410
> 
> I fully agree when he says that the purer the copper, the more bassy and "one note bass" it gets...*and also that each strand adds up its own distortion.*
> 
> I can't wait for my solid silver UPOCC wire to arrive! I've bought silver plated plugs too, but they're not copper...more like nickel.


 

 And that's why I love OCC.  The strands are so thin.  DHC Nucleotide is some of the best I've seen, but I doubt it makes that much of a difference how relatively good the OCC copper/silver is, because it's sufficient from all 3 licensed manufacturers.  I think scooter might sell you OCC silver by the foot if you e-mail him, but don't hold me to it.


----------



## scootermafia

If it's OCC silver you're after, check out the Neotech silver from Partsconnexion, Soniccraft, or Takefiveaudio, or if you have megabucks then the cryo silver from Cryoparts.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> I am all for people spending thousands on headphone cables, so long as they have heard both sides of the argument, pro and anti before hand. The shoe analogy is a good one. Some do find designer, expensive shoes enhance their lives, just as my hifi enhances mine.
> 
> I have come around to the pro-side view of live and let live. So would the pro-side be more open to the issue that many cable 'science' claims are spurious and to use another analogy, are akin to the 'science' used to sell many cosmetics?


 

 I think that there is much in common between the cable 'science' and the cosmetics 'science'.
   
  The problem throughout audio equipment is auto-suggestion which is hugely strong with hearing. Unfortunately the people buying the audio stuff are not aware of this and believe that the benefits they "hear" are real.
   
  Once the triggers for the auto-suggestion are removed, as in well conducted blind ABX testing, then the sonic "differences" disappear.
   
  A great disservice has been done to people interested in hi fi by the reviewing industry which has abandoned any attempts at real objectivity about audio testing. Instead reviewers sit and report their auto-suggested experiences. Of course this is exactly how the hi fi industry likes it.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> I think that there is much in common between the cable 'science' and the cosmetics 'science'.
> 
> The problem throughout audio equipment is auto-suggestion which is hugely strong with hearing. Unfortunately the people buying the audio stuff are not aware of this and believe that the benefits they "hear" are real.
> 
> ...


 

 My attempts to ask Warren Audio and Chord about how they test cables have been ignored. I am on Beeman's ignore list. It is the best way to deal with criticism you cannot rationally counter.


----------



## p a t r i c k

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> I am on Beeman's ignore list.


 

 How do you get on Beeman's ignore list?
   
  Is it possible to request this?


----------



## PelPix

Rick Warren's work is absolutely horrid.  I've had the displeasure of seeing one of his welding jobs.  It's like he taped the two ends together and then fused them with a _controlled nuclear detonation_.

  
   
  Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> I think that there is much in common between the cable 'science' and the cosmetics 'science'.
> 
> The problem throughout audio equipment is auto-suggestion which is hugely strong with hearing. Unfortunately the people buying the audio stuff are not aware of this and believe that the benefits they "hear" are real.
> 
> ...


 
  I agree.  Reviews nowadays are full of bias.  The only way you're going to get a difference is if the stock cable is actually so bad that it's impeding the function, like silver plated copper.
  Take a look at this review here:
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/514407/review-warren-audio-x10-series-headphone-cables
  No cable is going to make that difference, not even the best of the best.


----------



## aimlink

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Take a look at this review here:
> http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/514407/review-warren-audio-x10-series-headphone-cables
> No cable is going to make that difference.


 

 Yeah.  That review is way over the top.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





p a t r i c k said:


> How do you get on Beeman's ignore list?
> 
> Is it possible to request this?


 

 No unfortunately, he has to do it. What to do is to imitate they way he posts to others, he does not like that.


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> In a simple test, can someone pick out the silver plated copper cable over all copper and all silver?


 

 Yes they can.  There's a specific reason why silver plated copper (or any dual-material cable) isn't suitable for audio.  I explained it here:
   
  Quote: 





> Silver plated copper is used in cables because radio frequencies don't have the energy to penetrate that far beyond the silver.  Even if it did, changes in the DC resistance would be negligible at radio frequencies.  Therefore, everything works fine!
> 
> ...For radio frequencies.
> Audio frequencies are a bit different.  Because of the difference in frequency, changes in the DC resistance that were inconsequential before can now quite noticeably change the impedance between materials.  If there are two materials, the signal is split into two, and the two signals are traveling at different speeds.  When this hits the speaker end, all **** breaks loose. It's a much better idea to use solid copper, solid silver, or really solid _anything._


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Yes they can.  ......


 

 Can you link to such a test?


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Can you link to such a test?


 

 I don't have one on me.  I should really get around to doing one.
  The math checks out, though, so as long as our understanding of the working of electricity and its interaction with materials is correct, it is a credible scientific theory.
  Silver plated copper cables are unnaturally bright because the signal is split into two signals moving at different speeds through each material.  Which material it travels through depends on the frequency.  When this phase difference hits the speaker end, it becomes brightness due to the differences in energy between the signals.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

I am bright as well........


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> I am bright as well........


 

 Yes, you are.
   



   





   
  se


----------



## IPodPJ




----------



## leeperry

aimlink said:


> Yeah.  That review is way over the top.


 

 Wow, I checked it earlier but had no idea that it was a cable review, I thought it was an amp or sumthing..haha, I love the "_take advantage of Warren Audio's 14 day trial period . They offer a full refund if not happy_" at the end.


----------



## PelPix

Quote: 





leeperry said:


> Wow, I checked it earlier but had no idea that it was a cable review, I thought it was an amp or sumthing..haha, I love the "_take advantage of Warren Audio's 14 day trial period . They offer a full refund if not happy_" at the end.


 

 Warren Audio's cables are...
  Well, they make sound for the first few hours...


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> Warren Audio's cables are...
> Well, they make sound for the first few hours...


 
   
  LOL
  this guy


----------



## PelPix

And I'm not trying to be mean or anything.  Warren Audio's cables really are just terrible.  The craftsmanship is really substandard and I've heard stories of customers getting threats of violence when they try to complain to via email.  When people offer honest, constructive criticism, he also gets very angry at them, too!  I'm sure he could make better cables with a bit of proper research and, probably most importantly, a more positive attitude.
  Here is a thread detailing the level of craftsmanship:
  http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/461656/warren-audio-s-broken-hd800-cables
  I can't understand this.  It looks like he held the two ends together and then soldered it by sticking it into a car cigarette lighter!
  He apparently uses magnet wire for his cables, which I just can't understand.  There are rumors going around that after he lost his contributor account for the first time, he began paying someone else to make his cables for him.
   
  Other than the magnet wire though, he's certainly improving!  The newest batch of cables was noticeably better than the previous batches.  They're still not particularly good, and it's still up in the air whether he's actually still making his own cables, but they are improving!
   
  I really feel sorry for him, and I honestly want him to improve.


----------



## bergman2

i'm not happy with the fit and finish of warren (formerly fidelity) audio cables either as I have a pair of balanced senn 650 cables .... BUT .... they sound neutral and have been going strong for 1+ years ... and, perhaps most important, they were cheap !!! sound much better than a stock set of 650 cables converted to balanced ... so, back to the point of this thread, cables do make a difference


----------



## Mad Max

Didn't Rick post earlier in this thread that he has pros doing the soldering for him?  Or maybe it was a similar thread.  I have a pair of WA IC's, and no problems with them.  =]
  Threats of violence?  LOL, you got trolled. (hopefully)
  Who knows.  I make my own cables now, problem solved.


----------



## PelPix

Sadly not.  There are reports of violence threats all over his feedback threads 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> Didn't Rick post earlier in this thread that he has pros doing the soldering for him?  Or maybe it was a similar thread.  I have a pair of WA IC's, and no problems with them.  =]
> *Threats of violence?  LOL, you got trolled. (hopefully)*
> Who knows.  I make my own cables now, problem solved.


----------



## Mad Max

That ain't right.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Now I understand why I was blanked by Warren Audio after asking a simple question.


----------



## revolink24

You know, that essentially.... makes no sense. At all.
   
  Steve Eddy, astound him with your profound knowledge of the movement of electrons through material!
   
  I fail to see how plated wire is a crossover. What a ton of horse manure. ALL analog audio is is a voltage and current that vary (due to the variable resistance of microphones) to reproduce sound. Current will ALWAYS choose the path of least resistance. but since the silver will get "full" most of it will travel through the copper, regardless of frequency.
   
  Filters are capacitors and coils, not cables 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote: 





pelpix said:


> I don't have one on me.  I should really get around to doing one.
> The math checks out, though, so as long as our understanding of the working of electricity and its interaction with materials is correct, it is a credible scientific theory.
> Silver plated copper cables are unnaturally bright because the signal is split into two signals moving at different speeds through each material.  Which material it travels through depends on the frequency.  When this phase difference hits the speaker end, it becomes brightness due to the differences in energy between the signals.


----------



## PelPix

1.  Correct, but you're missing the point.  Audio frequency signals can penetrate into a conductor deeper than RF.  I didn't say that any specific frequencies consistently preferred either the copper or the silver.  If I did, then that was my mistake, and I apologize.  The point is still that the signal can get split between the silver and the copper and travel at different speeds.  This will still cause a difference in the audio.  Another, perhaps even more serious problem can arise when it finally hits the connector.  No audio cable should ever have these kind of nonlinearity problems.  I'm probably not explaining this correctly at all.
   
  2.  I fail to see how those three things differ in anything but complexity and purpose.  They all work on the same principles of electricity, and can all have similar problems when badly designed.
  
  Quote: 





revolink24 said:


> You know, that essentially.... makes no sense. At all.
> 
> Steve Eddy, astound him with your profound knowledge of the movement of electrons through material!
> 
> ...


----------



## nick_charles

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> I don't have one on me.  I should really get around to doing one.
> The math checks out, though, so as long as our understanding of the working of electricity and its interaction with materials is correct, it is a credible scientific theory.
> Silver plated copper cables are unnaturally bright because the signal is split into two signals moving at different speeds through each material.  Which material it travels through depends on the frequency.  When this phase difference hits the speaker end, it becomes brightness due to the differences in energy between the signals.


 

 I have tested the FR on cables made from solid copper, stranded copper, stranded silver and silver-plated stranded copper empirically (measured) , there was no notable difference between the samples I used, all had essentially (+/- 0.006db) a flat FR from 20 - 20K - the silver was not brighter at all let alone unnaturally so in either plated or stranded form. I suggest the samples in which you found such unnatural brightness are faulty.
   
  The phase differences (group delay) you speak about are not humanly detectable until they hit about 5 microseconds (under extreme lab conditions i.e an anechoic chamber at 3500hz a range where the ear is very sensitive) . A 10ft cable will give you a 2ns group delay at 20K, a 50ft run of cable will have a group delay of about 209ns at 20K which is a bit over 1/24th of this value, all of this at 20K where the ear is far far less sensitive ---- to say this is not humanly detectable is an understatement. To get a detectable group delay from a simple cable requires a cable of prodigious length. See Floyd Toole's work on this.


----------



## Steve Eddy

What's going on with this crazy editor? All of a sudden it's not allowing you to enter text BELOW the quoted text. How stupid is that?
   
  se


----------



## PelPix

That's a good point.  The delay wouldn't be audible at all.
  To be honest it's probably more the properties of the silver (or even the fact that the split signal has to rejoin when the cable terminates that causes the audible differences (but probably not)), now that I think about it.  I don't know what I was thinking when I thought it might be the delay.  I've been really overworked these past few days.  My previous posts don't even make sense to me now! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  But, I find it quite odd that you found no difference between copper and silver plated copper.  I've heard a definite difference.
  Do you suppose it could be something psychoacoustic?  The ears and brain have done a lot of crazy things with sound.  Reviewing the evidence so far, one would think it may be placebo, but the sheer amount of almost unanimous testimony to silver being brighter than copper makes it seem like something more psychoacoustic than placebo.
  Quote: 





nick_charles said:


> I have tested the FR on cables made from solid copper, stranded copper, stranded silver and silver-plated stranded copper empirically (measured) , there was no notable difference between the samples I used, all had essentially (+/- 0.006db) a flat FR from 20 - 20K - the silver was not brighter at all let alone unnaturally so in either plated or stranded form. I suggest the samples in which you found such unnatural brightness are faulty.
> 
> The phase differences (group delay) you speak about are not humanly detectable until they hit about 5 microseconds (under extreme lab conditions i.e an anechoic chamber at 3500hz a range where the ear is very sensitive) . A 10ft cable will give you a 2ns group delay at 20K, a 50ft run of cable will have a group delay of about 209ns at 20K which is a bit over 1/24th of this value, all of this at 20K where the ear is far far less sensitive ---- to say this is not humanly detectable is an understatement. To get a detectable group delay from a simple cable requires a cable of prodigious length. See Floyd Toole's work on this.


----------



## Aynjell

Quote: 





			
				Steve Eddy said:
			
		

> /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> What's going on with this crazy editor? All of a sudden it's not allowing you to enter text BELOW the quoted text. How stupid is that?
> ...


 
  lol u noob? I just cut it from the reply, and type something, then paste the quote in prior. Also, if you make a smiley...
   
  Smiley 1: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  I am going to close this post then edit it. I'll put a smiley 2 in.
   
  Smiley 2: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Smiley 1 will have a bunch of stray formatting text around it. Very annoying. And now it's working. Never mind. :\


----------



## nick_charles

Quote: 





pelpix said:


> But, I find it quite odd that you found no difference between copper and silver plated copper.  I've heard a definite difference.
> Do you suppose it could be something psychoacoustic?  The ears and brain have done a lot of crazy things with sound.  Reviewing the evidence so far, one would think it may be placebo, but the sheer amount of almost unanimous testimony to silver being brighter than copper makes it seem like something more psychoacoustic than placebo.


 

 I used two decent examples a DH labs cables (SPC) and a couple of Audioquest cables (copper) , plus many others of varying costs. the FRs were not different to any notable degree, of course that was just my samples,of course you can make cables that are deliberately bad by adding resistors and so on but these will **not** accentuate any frequencies, they will attenuate frequencies. Silver looks bright and so is often given that brightness as an attribute, this is metaphorical thinking and a bit akin to anthropomorphism.
   
  Silver is more conductive but not selectively so when transmitting small voltage audio signals over short distances.


----------



## PelPix

If it was only a placebo effect, then why did my ears begin to _physically_ hurt after listening to my k702s with silver cable instead of copper cable?
  There are far too many widespread experiences of the sonic differences between silver and copper for it to not exist.  It's possible it could be on the speaker end, or even psychoacoustic, but _not_ imaginary.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Because you are so utterly convinced that silver = bright.


----------



## PelPix

That'd be an alright explanation if I didn't hear the difference the first time I ever heard copper and silver.
  There's also the fact that I am disabled and have rarely ever been outside.  I have never seen bare silver or copper in my entire life.  How would I be able to infer the sound of it based on how it looks, as you imply, if I have never actually seen either?
  
  Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Because you are so utterly convinced that silver = bright.


----------



## Mad Max

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> What's going on with this crazy editor? All of a sudden it's not allowing you to enter text BELOW the quoted text. How stupid is that?
> 
> se


 
   
  Click on _Source_ in the editor then enter:
   
  <p>
 </p>
   
  at the very bottom and click on _Source_ again, then you can enter text below the quote box.
  Just happened to me as well, don't know why.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

I see what you mean Steve, the forum has gone bonkers today with all sorts of faults.
   
  PelPix, I can't say i have seen much silver or copper in its raw state. but I can differentiate between the colours silver and copper and silver is brighter.
  
  Quote: 





pelpix said:


> That'd be an alright explanation if I didn't hear the difference the first time I ever heard copper and silver.
> There's also the fact that I am disabled and have rarely ever been outside.  I have never seen bare silver or copper in my entire life.  How would I be able to infer the sound of it based on how it looks, as you imply, if I have never actually seen either?


----------



## PelPix

I mean, I can infer that silver is probably gray, and copper is probably a more earthy color, but I don't really perceive either as "brighter."  They're just different colors.  It hurts my eyes just as much to look at either if they're lit well enough.
   
  Upon reading further, I've discovered that the sonic differences between silver and copper exist _only_ in stranded wire cables, *not* in solid rods.  Is it possible that the differences are somehow different ways of expressing the distortion caused by stranding wire of each metal?


----------



## Prog Rock Man

I would say that the difference lies in resistance which causes slight variations in volume which can be enough to be detectable and are then mistaken for improvements in sound.


----------



## PelPix

Never said that bright or dark was better, just that there's a slight difference.  I don't particularly prefer either silver or copper.


----------



## leeperry

it's better to answer at the top of the quote like all the newbies do, it's very annoying to read in multi-quotes I love it.

  
  Quote: 





mad max said:


> Click on _Source_ in the editor then enter:
> 
> <p>
> </p>
> ...


----------



## Mad Max

It's a habit for me to type in text under a quote box.  I do that everywhere.


----------



## Aynjell

Quote: 





mad max said:


> It's a habit for me to type in text under a quote box.  I do that everywhere.


 
  I as well. It comes after, much like a response to something would in real life. It's natural.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *PelPix*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Sorry, but there is no "splitting" of the signal that subsequently gets "rejoined" when the cable terminates.
   
  Where on earth did you get this idea from?
   
  se


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Aynjell*
> 
> 
> 
> lol u noob? I just cut it from the reply, and type something, then paste the quote in prior. Also, if you make a smiley...


 
   
   
  I've been communicating in online forums for over 25 years. Hardly a noob.
   
  I know how to work my way around it, but that wasn't my point.
   
  My point was that it _shouldn't have to be worked around_. And if this is now the "normal" mode for the forums, then it's incredibly stupid.
   
  se


----------



## Aynjell

I agree entirely, Steve. I was just kidding at you. 
  Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> I've been communicating in online forums for over 25 years. Hardly a noob.
> 
> I know how to work my way around it, but that wasn't my point.
> 
> ...


----------



## PelPix

I was speaking of silver plated copper specifically, not pure metal.
 If a cable is silver plated copper, wouldn't the signal get split between the silver and the copper under some conditions?
  Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> Sorry, but there is no "splitting" of the signal that subsequently gets "rejoined" when the cable terminates.
> 
> Where on earth did you get this idea from?
> 
> se


----------



## Albedo

I don't see any reason to buy a cable that has a serious problem with oxidation (both copper and silver) and certainly not one that costs quite a few Benjamins when the surface is acting like a semi-conductor and a diodic barrier.
   
   
  Supra: 





> The diodes so formed between the strands are not seen by steady-state signals, but look like the plates of a high value capacitor to transient signals. This causes low-level energy storage and release after transients, that is invisible to steady-state testing yet nonetheless is perfectly audible with many music recordings.


 
   
  Another incentive for choosing a cheaper cable is measurement and time domain scope pictures -> http://www.jenving.se/?p=ply and by that I can remove one variable and just view it as it should be.. a passive device. The active devices in the chain yields greater gain in sound when going up the price-ladder, heck.. I'll rather choose EQ as tone-control than exotic headphone cables.
   
  Having to many variables to take into consideration is for me a pest, let's say I settle with a good and expensive headphone and view an amplifier as just that, choosing a neutral one that adds as little of distortion as possible within a certain price frame matching somewhat the expense of the headphone. Then I could put those Benjamins to good use, clock-locking the transport to the master clock in the DAC with it's good and clean PSU.
   
  Which leaves me just to worry about the plethora of analogue stages after the DAC, with an endless rolling of opamps, discrete designs and tubes for that matter, that would keep me busy for at least a couple of years.
   
  Such a solution is more rewarding, but the best about the whole darn thing.. I can read up on it (white-papers, forums etc.) and gain valuable knowledge and experiences that can be applied and thereby makes it all more worthwhile on (in fact) many different planes.
   
  One path to thread makes good headway and to me it makes that more sense directing ones effort to concentrate on the tangible principles, but your mileage may vary.. of course.


----------



## revolink24

I don't see how it would. Yes, the electrons may travel slightly faster through silver, but in all likelihood they will not stay in either conductor. That is, they are free to move between the silver and the copper based purely on which is "easier" to navigate through at the time. Maybe if the current were so incredibly low that the silver would never become saturated with flowing electrons then very few electrons would travel along the copper, assuming the silver is consistent.
   
   


pelpix said:


> I was speaking of silver plated copper specifically, not pure metal.
> If a cable is silver plated copper, wouldn't the signal get split between the silver and the copper under some conditions?


----------



## maverickronin

My own subjective experiences with silver plated copper ICs do not support the idea that they sound any different from plain copper.  That's not much compared to Nick Charles' tests, but take it for what its worth.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Well damn it, don't be so subtle about it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
   
  Quote: 





aynjell said:


> I agree entirely, Steve. I was just kidding at you.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *PelPix*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  No.
   
  se


----------



## revolink24

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> No.
> 
> se


 


  An excellent response, SE


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





revolink24 said:


> An excellent response, SE


 

 My verbosity was at the cleaners. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  Oh, hey, I can write below the quotes now.
   
  se


----------



## Aynjell

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> My verbosity was at the cleaners.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yay. They fixed it!
   

  
  Quote: 





			
				Steve Eddy said:
			
		

> Well damn it, don't be so subtle about it!


 

  
  I've always liked your non nonsense approach to this stuff. I respect you man, if I make a rib at ya' it's exactly that. Harmless ribbing.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





aynjell said:


> I've always liked your non nonsense approach to this stuff. I respect you man, if I make a rib at ya' it's exactly that. Harmless ribbing.


 

 Thank you for the kind words. And my apologies for having mistook your ribbing for something else. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  se


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## spacemanspliff

I have an interesting new addition to this discussion. I have a Spritzer modded SRD-7, Nova Stax. I just got some anti-cable for the SRD-7. Technically, that is a headphone cable right? Well, if you will allow that, I can say that there has been a change. I can hear parts of the music, effects, mixed in low volume sounds, which I previously did not hear. The soundstage has become even more defined and the overall sound is clearer. This was not an expensive upgrade. I spent $30 on these anti-cables.
   
  So, I would say that you do not have to spend much on cables. Spend it on the other parts of the system.


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## googleborg

i replaced an interconnect once and thought i could hear details i previously couldn't hear, but it turns out i was just listening far more intently than i normally do and it was there with both ICs :/  music is jam packed with tiny little things that ain't always apparent unless you focus, or are in a certain state of mind, and there's no way i can spot everything in every bit of music in one go.


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## spacemanspliff

I am sure that is true to a point. However, I listened to the anti cables. Then I switched back to the standard wire. I could not hear the same effects. 
  They just were not there and I was straining to hear them. Might be shotty speaker wire but it was better than radio shack that is for sure.


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