# Which cable upgrade made the most difference in your system? Power cord, interconnects or headphone cables?



## dguitarnut

I have assembled a decent system and looking to make cable upgrades.
 Thanks
 Larry


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## StanD

The cable to my pacemaker. Without it my heart would skip a beat whenever I listen to music. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 As you might guess, I don't believe much in cables, unless one is either defective or was manufactured cheaply. YMMV.


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## Shaffer

I'd suggest starting with the interconnects. Good luck.


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## Gadget67

dguitarnut said:


> I have assembled a decent system and looking to make cable upgrades.
> Thanks
> Larry




This question is difficult to answer without some specific information about what is in your system. What kind of amp/DAC, headphones, speakers etc, are you using? What kinds of interconnects are you using now? In my own system I found that using balanced XLR cable to my Airmotiv 4 speakers rather than RCA connectors made (to me, anyway) a very noticeable difference in sound quality. On the other hand, my inexpensive Audioquest Forrest USB cable from my MacBook to my Wadia 121 amp/DAC was just as good as the considerably more expensive Nordost blue heaven USB. Honestly, I could not reliably differentiate between them. Well made cables with reasonable shielding are usually every bit as good as extremely expensive cables to most listeners. I'm sure if you provide more specific information, others will chime in.


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## Shaffer

^^^ The OP's info is in his profile.


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## StanD

gadget67 said:


> This question is difficult to answer without some specific information about what is in your system. What kind of amp/DAC, headphones, speakers etc, are you using? What kinds of interconnects are you using now? In my own system I found that using balanced XLR cable to my Airmotiv 4 speakers rather than RCA connectors made (to me, anyway) a very noticeable difference in sound quality. On the other hand, my inexpensive Audioquest Forrest USB cable from my MacBook to my Wadia 121 amp/DAC was just as good as the considerably more expensive Nordost blue heaven USB. Honestly, I could not reliably differentiate between them. Well made cables with reasonable shielding are usually every bit as good as extremely expensive cables to most listeners. I'm sure if you provide more specific information, others will chime in.


 
 Using balanced cables doubles the voltage and being louder affects how one perceives sound. One would have to compare with matched volume and do so quickly to really tell if there is any difference. Then there's always the human aspect.


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## Gadget67

shaffer said:


> ^^^ The OP's info is in his profile.




I know you are trying to be helpful, but the short answer is that questions should be self contained and not require additional research to answer. He may have also asked an open ended question deliberately and I tried to answer accordingly. You are also assuming his profile (yes, I know it is recent) is up to date as of today.


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## Gadget67

stand said:


> gadget67 said:
> 
> 
> > This question is difficult to answer without some specific information about what is in your system. What kind of amp/DAC, headphones, speakers etc, are you using? What kinds of interconnects are you using now? In my own system I found that using balanced XLR cable to my Airmotiv 4 speakers rather than RCA connectors made (to me, anyway) a very noticeable difference in sound quality. On the other hand, my inexpensive Audioquest Forrest USB cable from my MacBook to my Wadia 121 amp/DAC was just as good as the considerably more expensive Nordost blue heaven USB. Honestly, I could not reliably differentiate between them. Well made cables with reasonable shielding are usually every bit as good as extremely expensive cables to most listeners. I'm sure if you provide more specific information, others will chime in.
> ...




I'm a cable skeptic too, though in this case the difference really seemed significant. I've done some very limited research on balanced vs RCA and I recall reading about the volume differences so you are likely correct .


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## StanD

gadget67 said:


> I'm a cable skeptic too, though in this case the difference really seemed significant. I've done some very limited research on balanced vs RCA and I recall reading about the volume differences so you are likely correct
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 But no difference in SQ. Just turn up the volume and save some moolah.


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## dguitarnut

Sorry I should have posted what I have.
My desk unit is a Soloist with a emotiva dc1. MacBook Pro and th900 headphones.
Right now I'm just using some semi nice monster cables and the original power cords and a generic USB cable.
I was considering some sub $200 silver interconnects as a starter.


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## dguitarnut

Although I really posed the question as what did you find in your own upgrade path.
Thanks 
Larry


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## xnor

dguitarnut said:


> I was considering some sub $200 silver interconnects as a starter.


 
 I would never put that amount of money into any kind of cable.
  
 You don't need to go fancy (or expensive) to get the highest sound quality, as long as you have the right cables. For speaker cables the gauge is obviously very important. For long cable runs, especially with mics or guitars at the end, balanced cables are the way to go to reduce interferences.
 Some headphone cables are overly thin, so again a question of the right gauge.
  
 Switching to different materials, like silver, doesn't help. I've talked to some mastering engineers and they neither use expensive audiophile nor the cheapest cables they can find, but solid, durable, reasonably priced cables (you'd say they're cheap compared to what some audiophile cables cost).


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## StanD

xnor said:


> I would never put that amount of money into any kind of cable.
> 
> You don't need to go fancy (or expensive) to get the highest sound quality, as long as you have the right cables. For speaker cables the gauge is obviously very important. For long cable runs, especially with mics or guitars at the end, balanced cables are the way to go to reduce interferences.
> Some headphone cables are overly thin, so again a question of the right gauge.
> ...


 
 I couldn't say that any better.


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## Gadget67

xnor said:


> dguitarnut said:
> 
> 
> > I was considering some sub $200 silver interconnects as a starter.
> ...




I agree 100%. Good advice, especially the last sentence.


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## jirapatpum

Get power cord+power conditioner first. Always powered the conditioner with your best power cable. you'll be surprised how easy it is to hear the difference.


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## RonaldDumsfeld

It's so dramatic you will then want to relay the entire cable back to the nearest power station.
  
 For deeper lows dig a trench and bury the cable underground. For cleaner highs and a wider soundstage use pylons. Don't forget how important synergy is to hi-fi systems. So half and half would be ideal. Use an audio-gd shovel(tm) for best results.
  
 ed: spl


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## StanD

jirapatpum said:


> Get power cord+power conditioner first. Always powered the conditioner with your best power cable. you'll be surprised how easy it is to hear the difference.


 
 Don't forget to bury the power cords and power line so that the NSA can't tap into your music. They have no restraints.


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## StanD

ronalddumsfeld said:


> It's so dramatic you will then want to relay the entire cable back to the nearest power station.
> 
> For deeper lows dig a trench and bury the cable underground. For cleaner highs and a wider soundstage use pylons. Don't forget how important synergy is to hi-fi systems. So half and half would be ideal. Use an audio-gd shovel(tm) for best results.
> 
> ed: spl


 
 If you put them on pylons you can sign up and contribute to the SETI project.


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## Lorspeaker

this thread is gonna be shutdown soon..... with so many burying going on.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 for me....
 i went to www.cabledyne.com n bought watever i could afford n sold all my wireworld...lolz
 its a usa company with 30days return i believe.


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## StanD

lorspeaker said:


> this thread is gonna be shutdown soon..... with so many burying going on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 OK, since you're bringing _balance _to this thread, let's _bury_ the hatchet. Did you get copper or silver? What type of cables?


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## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> this thread is gonna be shutdown soon..... with so many burying going on.:tongue_smile:




The discussion is kinda insulting, IMO. 



> for me....
> i went to www.cabledyne.com n bought watever i could afford n sold all my wireworld...lolz
> its a usa company with 30days return i believe.




To add, Audio Art offers very good cables at reasonable prices with a trial period. There's a review in the latest Stereophile, if that helps. FWIW, I have their balanced and single-ended products, along with many other cables.


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## yage

stand said:


> Using balanced cables doubles the voltage and being louder affects how one perceives sound. One would have to compare with matched volume and do so quickly to really tell if there is any difference. Then there's always the human aspect.


 
  
 Balanced cables 'double' the output voltage because one signal pin transmits an inverted signal (usually Pin 3) and has nothing to do with perceived volume by the listener.


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## Lorspeaker

usb / rca / pwcord ...mostly silver..one odd copper pwcord , until my wallet knelt down n beg for a quick death


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## dguitarnut

lorspeaker said:


> usb / rca / pwcord ...mostly silver..one odd copper pwcord , until my wallet knelt down n beg for a quick death


 
 Did you notice any differences when you did these upgrades?    I have been swapping out the really cheapies RCAs with monster RCAs  and I'm not sure if the differences are imagined!   LOL
 I might do the ones with a 30day trial or returnables and see for myself.    
  
 Would just soldering my components together and plugging directly into the wall socket be a better solution?


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## yage

> Originally Posted by *dguitarnut* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I have been swapping out the really cheapies RCAs with monster RCAs  and I'm not sure if the differences are imagined!


 
  
 Freebie cables that come packed with something like a DVD player are pretty terrible. I would at least get a pair of Blue Jeans LC-1. Monsters are overpriced, IMO.


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## Lorspeaker

i bought one cable at a time, the first being the silverUSB,
 listened, save up my bullet$ then the next one..
 took over a few months b4 i had all the cables i want...
 i heard increased clarity, better sense of depth,
 then more density/details in the depth as i add on the cables.
  
 Give it a shot if u are curious like me...nothing like listening to it on your own setup..
 if it doesnt work out, return it...v little ris$K. imho


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## StanD

Quote:
 Originally Posted by *StanD* 


  
 Using balanced cables doubles the voltage and being louder affects how one perceives sound. One would have to compare with matched volume and do so quickly to really tell if there is any difference. Then there's always the human aspect.


yage said:


> Balanced cables 'double' the output voltage because one signal pin transmits an inverted signal (usually Pin 3) and has nothing to do with perceived volume by the listener.


 
 Doubling the voltage increases the signal by 6 dB. When you increase the volume we perceive bass and treble differently, see Fletcher-Munson or Loudness Contour.


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## StanD

lorspeaker said:


> i bought one cable at a time, the first being the silverUSB,
> listened, save up my bullet$ then the next one..
> took over a few months b4 i had all the cables i want...
> i heard increased clarity, better sense of depth,
> ...


 
 I hope you realize that a USB cable carries digital data, 1's an 0's. Either it works or it doesn't. It shouldn't affect the SQ.


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## yage

stand said:


> Doubling the voltage increases the signal by 6 dB. When you increase the volume we perceive bass and treble differently, see Fletcher-Munson or Loudness Contour.


 
  
 Perhaps you should consider whether or not the receiving end adjusts the voltage gain vice a single-ended configuration such that the output level remains constant - especially if you have both types of inputs in a single preamp / integrated amp. Just a thought...


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## StanD

stand said:


> Doubling the voltage increases the signal by 6 dB. When you increase the volume we perceive bass and treble differently, see Fletcher-Munson or Loudness Contour.


 
  
  


yage said:


> Perhaps you should consider whether or not the receiving end adjusts the voltage gain vice a single-ended configuration such that the output level remains constant - especially if you have both types of inputs in a single preamp / integrated amp. Just a thought...


 
 I think we have to turn the Volume knob for that.


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## yage

stand said:


> I think we have to turn the Volume knob for that.


 
  
 Not necessarily. The volume knob only attenuates an input signal. It doesn't adjust the gain.


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## Kdavis71

I have a question. I'm running a budget system currently with Sony MA900 as my headphones and using Fiio E17 as my amp and dac. I'm currently using the mini usb that came with my Fiio E17 to connect it to my laptop. I was wondering since I don't have an insanely detailed set-up would there be any benefit to upgrading the mini usb that connects my E17 to the laptop? I was interested in the Moon Audio blue dragon mini usb for $75. Also there is the Audio Quest Forrest mini USB for only like $40 and the Wireworld starlight cables.
  
 If they will make any sort of noticeable difference which one would be best for my set-up? I do have mainly 90% Flac files that I listen to btw if that helps.


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## StanD

yage said:


> Not necessarily. The volume knob only attenuates an input signal. It doesn't adjust the gain.


 
 And thus still lowers the output that would otherwise be double at the balanced outputs.


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## yage

stand said:


> And thus still lowers the output that would otherwise be double at the balanced outputs.


 

 Right but if you adjust the gain of the balanced signal, you won't have to 'move the volume knob' to get the balanced and single-ended signals to match. See where I'm going with this?
  
 You can either convert the single-ended signal to a balanced one or adjust the gain of the balanced signal.
  
 In any case, because a signal is balanced does not necessarily mean it will 'sound twice as loud' in the end.


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## StanD

stand said:


> And thus still lowers the output that would otherwise be double at the balanced outputs.


 
  
  


yage said:


> Right but if you adjust the gain of the balanced signal, you won't have to 'move the volume knob' to get the balanced and single-ended signals to match. See where I'm going with this?
> 
> You can either convert the single-ended signal to a balanced one or adjust the gain of the balanced signal.
> 
> In any case, because a signal is balanced does not necessarily mean it will 'sound twice as loud' in the end.


 
 A lot of folks don't have a balanced DAC but use an amp that provides a balanced output from an SE input.


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## yage

stand said:


> A lot of folks don't have a balanced DAC but use an amp that provides a balanced output from an SE input.


 
  
 This is different from balanced transmission (what you were originally commenting on). See http://www.headphone.com/learning-center/art-i-balanced-vs-unbalanced.php. Again just because you're using a balanced output topology to power your headphones doesn't mean the volume will somehow increase.
  
 And to the rest of the posters - sorry for hijacking the thread.


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## StanD

yage said:


> This is different from balanced transmission (what you were originally commenting on). See http://www.headphone.com/learning-center/art-i-balanced-vs-unbalanced.php. Again just because you're using a balanced output topology to power your headphones doesn't mean the volume will somehow increase.
> 
> And to the rest of the posters - sorry for hijacking the thread.


 
 For some reason I didn't track your meaning with a balanced source. We can leave this OT as is.


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## dguitarnut

kdavis71 said:


> I have a question. I'm running a budget system currently with Sony MA900 as my headphones and using Fiio E17 as my amp and dac. I'm currently using the mini usb that came with my Fiio E17 to connect it to my laptop. I was wondering since I don't have an insanely detailed set-up would there be any benefit to upgrading the mini usb that connects my E17 to the laptop? I was interested in the Moon Audio blue dragon mini usb for $75. Also there is the Audio Quest Forrest mini USB for only like $40 and the Wireworld starlight cables.
> 
> If they will make any sort of noticeable difference which one would be best for my set-up? I do have mainly 90% Flac files that I listen to btw if that helps.



That cable would be half the cost of the E17. I would get the Fiio 09 desk amp. Your E17 would dock into it. This will make much more of a difference.


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## Lorspeaker

stand said:


> I hope you realize that a USB cable carries digital data, 1's an 0's. Either it works or it doesn't. It shouldn't affect the SQ.




I m a technical disaster....jus know it links my lappy to a dac.
If i had known all the currentscience i might not hv bot my first usb...
A LATusb...quite neutral..clean soundg..threw away my stockUsb tat came with the Nuforce.
Next i had a FurutechGT2...alot more bodyweight. Then a wireworld starlight..
 V bright soundg on my setup...night n day vs furutech.
When i finally plugged in the CabledyneUsb...i know its endgame for me
In tat part of my setup....its just 3D to my ears. 
From there on...i focused on my powercords..rcas.
These cables are "infrastructure" investment to my hobby...
Feeding the rest of my cans..i didnt mind spendg those monies.
I know my "sonic highways" are not blocked to the best of my wallet..
SO tat ends a chapter.

Ok u guys can carry on with the science


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## GrindingThud

I happen to like blue cables. Get cables that look good and feel durable. Nice soft flexible cables. I'd go for the headphone cables because you handle them all the time and they are highly visible. They all sound the same to me....this is about looks.


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## StanD

lorspeaker said:


> I m a technical disaster....jus know it links my lappy to a dac.
> If i had known all the currentscience i might not hv bot my first usb...
> A LATusb...quite neutral..clean soundg..threw away my stockUsb tat came with the Nuforce.
> Next i had a FurutechGT2...alot more bodyweight. Then a wireworld starlight..
> ...


 
 In a nontechnical sense, you are doing your part to boost the economy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 At least one sector.


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## StanD

grindingthud said:


> I happen to like blue cables. Get cables that look good and feel durable. Nice soft flexible cables. I'd go for the headphone cables because you handle them all the time and they are highly visible. They all sound the same to me....this is about looks.


 
 Now you make sense. Buying them for reasons of aesthetics, comfort and durability as opposed to sonic beliefs.


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## Lorspeaker

stand said:


> In a nontechnical sense, you are doing your part to boost the economy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 pass on the love ..$$$ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 
 i rob from another sector
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




​


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## StanD

lorspeaker said:


> pass on the love ..$$$
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 What!? You're actually giving something up?


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## HeavenNotes

jirapatpum said:


> Get power cord+power conditioner first. Always powered the conditioner with your best power cable. you'll be surprised how easy it is to hear the difference.


 
  
 Right!!!


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## tvolpe1600

jirapatpum said:


> Get power cord+power conditioner first. Always powered the conditioner with your best power cable. you'll be surprised how easy it is to hear the difference.


 

 This can make a huge difference. Remember that there are well established companies that special in power solutions beyond the audiophile community, so you don't have to spend much to get outstanding power conditioning. Pick up a few of these guys and you can completely isolate blocs of components in your system:
  
 http://www.tripplite.com/products/series/sid/839


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## gevorg

tvolpe1600 said:


> jirapatpum said:
> 
> 
> > Get power cord+power conditioner first. Always powered the conditioner with your best power cable. you'll be surprised how easy it is to hear the difference.
> ...




Do you own one? I'm just wondering if these make any kinds of audible sounds, whether a built-in cooling fan, or some electrical buzzing that you can hear from ~1m away or so.


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## tvolpe1600

I do own a few, as well as some of their power strips for other things. The units make absolutely no noise. If you have home appliances (washing machine, etc) on the same circuit as your gear, these will help out. I also work at a major laboratory, and Tripplite gear is uniqitious. Science.


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## gevorg

tvolpe1600 said:


> I do own a few, as well as some of their power strips for other things. The units make absolutely no noise. If you have home appliances (washing machine, etc) on the same circuit as your gear, these will help out. I also work at a major laboratory, and Tripplite gear is uniqitious. Science.




Awesome, thanks!


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## vo_obgyn

Latest cable purchase that I am happy with is Wywires Silver Digital SPDIF BNC - BNC 1.5M. Sounds great in my main rig from the Mark Levinson No.37 CD Transport to the Bryston BDA-1. Did all that Wywires claims their cables do in their website "performance attributes" section:
  
- Totally silent background between notes
 - State of the art realism, especially vocals
 - Greatly expanded soundstage in all dimensions including the vertical
 - Take the edge off sibilance (SSS’s) while enhancing inner detail
 - Present instruments in their lifelike scales
 - The most natural rendering of tone, timbre, attack and decay
 - State of the art definition and resolution of complex passages
 - Excellent low-frequency performance that belies the size of your woofers
 - Virtual elimination of irritation or listening fatigue


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## zorin

yage said:


> Not necessarily. The volume knob only attenuates an input signal. It doesn't adjust the gain.


 
 And how is this +6dB volume gain distributed on the bass volume dial ? If, listening 'single ended', the mark on the knob is at 2 o'clock position and the volume is at 90 dB level...and then the switch is made to 'balanced mode', where does this '6dB more' go ? Is there going to be, at the same 2 o'clock position, the same 90 dB or 90 dB plus 2 or 3 or 6 dB ? Will the 6dB go to the end of the dial to be an extra extended loudness peak ? Where does that extra +6dB energy go ?


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## Chris J

zorin said:


> And how is this +6dB volume gain distributed on the bass volume dial ? If, listening 'single ended', the mark on the knob is at 2 o'clock position and the volume is at 90 dB level...and then the switch is made to 'balanced mode', where does this '6dB more' go ? Is there going to be, at the same 2 o'clock position, the same 90 dB or 90 dB plus 2 or 3 or 6 dB ? Will the 6dB go to the end of the dial to be an extra extended loudness peak ? Where does that extra +6dB energy go ?




It depends.

But typically the volume will be 6 dB louder when comparing a balanced input signal to a single-ended input signal.

However, if we have a pre-amp with balanced and single-ended inputs, it is possible that the pre-amp designer took this into account and gain matched the balanced and single -ended inputs.

In practice, I have several power amps with balanced and single ended inputs, the balanced inputs have 6 dB more gain, so they will be 6 dB louder than the single-ended inputs.


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## zorin

xxx


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## zorin

chris j said:


> It depends.
> 
> But typically the volume will be 6 dB louder when comparing a balanced input signal to a single-ended input signal.
> 
> ...


 
 When switching to the balanced mode the voltage of the amplified audio signal 'out' increases, right ?


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## Chris J

zorin said:


> When switching to the balanced mode the voltage of the amplified audio signal 'out' increases, right ?




Right!


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