# KEF LS50 w/ Rotel RA-11 --- matching sub recommendations?



## perplekks45

Hi there,
   
  I just ordered a pair of LS50 and the Rotel RA-11 after listening to it in a shop (and comparing it to the B&W 685, KEF Q300, Q500, and Q700). Got a pretty good price for it and now I am already thinking about the future, as we all here tend to do.
   
  The system will be on one end of a roughly 8m x 5m room with a tiled floor. The LS50 will be on Dynaudio 3X stands and will be about .5m from the wall. Everybody who knows the LS50 also knows they have a pretty decent bass for their size but I might feel (at least in the long run) that there could be more body to it and that it could extend a little further down.
  That's why I am here today. Which subwoofer in the 500-700 Euro range would be a good match for the LS50?
   
  A few examples of what I was already looking at:
   
  KEF Q400 
  Klipsch SW-110
  Martin Logan Dynamo 700
   
  Thanks in advance!


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## perplekks45

Nobody?


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## cel4145

That's a big room. If it opens up into other rooms, too, a sub will be seriously challenged. Is there additional open space? Do you plan on listening to bass heavy music or using the setup for movie watching? 

Subs "see" the whole air volume space, and so you need a sub to fit the room as the first priority. If you ever intend to crank up those LS50s, you'll probably need more than those 10"ers. Ported subs at a given price point will generally be better for maximum output over sealed subs, all other things being equal (driver and amp). 

Here in the US, there are Internet direct subwoofer vendors that are far better than regular speaker manufacturers for buying subs. One of them, SVS Audio, has distributors in Europe. For that size space, I would want an SVS PB12-NSD. Here's a review: http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/pb12-nsd For a sealed sub that won't have as much output, the SB12-NSD. Another review: http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/sb12-nsd-subwoofer. If you search AVS's subwoofer forum, you'll find lots of thread talking about these subs.


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## perplekks45

Thanks for the input and suggestions.
   
  The room has two doors, one to the hallway and another one to the balcony. No other open space here. But I will use the setup for movies.
   
  Music played will be pretty varied: a lot of electro, industrial rock, metal, jazz, some rap, weird mixtures of pop/rock/electro/80s synthesizer stuff... bass-heavy would probably only be a small-ish part of it.
   
  I am not after extreme bass. I want something that will deliver a good punch with quite a bit of texture. The LS50 offer a boatload of clarity with their intended purpose being somewhere between studio monitors and home use. I have a ported 150W subwoofer from way back which delivers quite a lot of boom, it just is not detailed at all. I want that texture I have in the LS50 to be (to some extent, at least) in the sub as well. 
  Did that even make sense? I hope so.


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## cel4145

I understand what you mean about the desire for good bass. I have dual 18" sealed subs in my living room running off a Dayton Audio SA1000 subwoofer amp, with an Antimode 8033C and Audyssey MultiEQ to smooth the bass frequency response (which, btw, a bass eq system is something to consider for good bass). I have about 6,000 cubic feet, though, so I doubt you'd need two 18" subs 

SVS Audio subwoofers are very high quality. Take a look at those reviews. I don't know what they cost to you locally, but here, it's practically impossible to really do better than those subs for the money.


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## perplekks45

I checked their German website and the prices translate 1:1 or even worse to Euros. Just take the $ sign away, replace it with € and you're done. Well, almost...
   
  PB12-NSD US: $769
  PB12-NSD EU: €899 = $1203
   
  SB12-NSD US: $649
  SB12-NSD EU: €649 = $868
   
  After reading a few reviews I would definitely take the PB12, but that is just a tad over my budget. Well, I will test the LS50 without a sub first, anyway. After that I will decide what I need, but these subs seem to be amazing value for money from what I've read so far.


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## cel4145

Yep. In the US, it's a no brainer with the prices we get. At those prices, if you could get 30 or 40% off MSRP off a good sub from a traditional speaker manufacturer, likely they could be a comparable value, too. But undoubtedly, the SVS Audio subs are a good choice. 

There is also the PB-1000 which would fit your budget. Brent Butterworth at Sound and Vision (who does their individual sub reviews) felt it was the best value in a $500 sub: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/blog/2013/04/19/review-svs-pb-1000-subwoofer

It is my understanding that the PB-1000 is only a slight notch down in overall max output than the larger PB12. So better for room filling bass than the small 12" sealed SB12. But I also understand that the SB12 and PB12 are a step up in driver quality, so they should have a little better sound. Doesn't seem like the PB-1000 is bad at SQ; just the others are a little better. For home theater usage in your size room, I would definitely go with the PB-1000 over the SB12 for the extra overall output and the better low bass extension down to 19hz. There are a lot of effects in movies that really benefit from good output below 30hz. 

Also, for your price on the PB-1000, you could get two of them over a PB12 (something Butterworth points out in his review), negating the advantage of the extra max output on the PB12. Two subs can have the advantage of doing a better job of countering room modes to give a smoother frequency response through a wider listening area. So you could start with one. If you don't feel the sound is up to par, SVS normally has a good return/exchange policy (check that distributor). If you like what you hear, you could always upgrade with a second one later on


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## simbohm

I was looking at an identical setup.  Purchasing the LS50's would tend to infer you are looking for accuracy vs "brute force" sound. I'm now in the US and so my recommendations may be moot if these units do not support 50Hz AC etc.. 
  
 IMHO -  I would look at SVS subs as a primary - they really are very phenominal for the money and quite tight (as others have pointed out).
  
 However - keep an eye out on Velodyne's site -  I purchased two 12" passive subs with their SC1250 (1250 Watt RMS) amp that drove those perfectly for roughly your budget (you have to hunt on their site - or look on ebay - they sell them there to my surprise - seller: *velodyneacoustics*). For my application/room with my budget - compared to the SVS, I had better detail, reduced room modes (after using their room correction feature) and a tad more oomph with the Velodynes. Velodyne says these  are refurbed - but they were brand new (confirmed after talking to them).  The only issue is that I think they sold out of the 12" & 10" packages. If so - picking Velo may mean you sacrifice some frequencies in the lower 20's. 
  
 Good luck  - I think your final setup will sound pretty sweet….


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## vkvedam

Check out REL acoustics line up. For my room I have got T5 along with LS50s. They match and blend in pretty well. Look up on the R-218, got some pretty good reviews. SVS are also good but expensive in the EU.


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## shenyijing

If you ever intend to crank up those LS50s, you'll probably need more than those 10"ers. Ported subs at a given price point will generally be better for maximum output over sealed subs


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## perplekks45

Thanks for the answers and sorry for the late reply. Been quite busy with the one thing that tends to keep me away from good music/audio: real life.
  
 The T5 seems to be affordable if I can find a good retailer, preferably in Germany. The one REL have on their homepage has no pricing nor any other information on their homepage. Will contact them and ask for a quote.
  
 And I will read up on the SVS/Velodyne stuff soon-ish.


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## cel4145

The REL T5 is an 8", 125 watt sealed subwoofer. Unless you like to listen to music at relatively low volumes, the T5 would likely be completely inadequate for filling an 8m x 5m room with bass. You need a bigger driver and more sub amplifier in that size room. And as shenyijing pointed out above, ported subs are generally better for more output than sealed subs for a large room at a given price point.


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## perplekks45

While that may be true (ported subs being better suited to filling a large room with boomy goodness), I am more in the market for defined bass than pure power. Or, as simbohm put it, for accuracy vs "brute force". So, just having power will not be enough for me. It has to match the very accurate LS50. If I just wanted power I could just use my old Magnat 150W ported sub. Unfortunately it has no real texture in the bass.
  
 I still think you might be right that I could need a 10" or even 12" to get the bass to sufficient levels.


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## cel4145

perplekks45 said:


> While that may be true (ported subs being better suited to filling a large room with boomy goodness), I am more in the market for defined bass than pure power. Or, as simbohm put it, for accuracy vs "brute force". So, just having power will not be enough for me. *It has to match the very accurate LS50.* If I just wanted power I could just use my old Magnat 150W ported sub. Unfortunately it has no real texture in the bass.
> 
> I still think you might be right that I could need a 10" or even 12" to get the bass to sufficient levels.




Then I would recommend that you do more research and learning about subs before you buy since you were considering a 125 watt 8" sealed sub (any home audio sub enthusiast can tell you that sub would be totally inadequate for that size space). Read, research, and talk with the home audio enthusiasts at the AVS subwoofer forum (the AVS subwoofer forum is to subwoofers as Head-Fi is to headphones).


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## daerron

Apologies for thread necro, but like to add a couple of points.
  
 The LS50 definitely needs a fast sub, so I would definitely suggest a sealed sub, though I've heard reports of good matching with REL subwoofers, which always tended to be a bit more musical. I'm using a Velodyne 12" SPL-1200 Ultra with my LS50s and have the KEFs crossed over at 80Hz and it integrates quite well, though the Velodyne does lag a smidgen. I think the 10" might be better due to the smaller driver, without really sacrificing that much on the low end. The interesting thing is that I've found the LS50s improved in sound when removing the low bass load on them. It seems to play a touch cleaner in the upper mids. If I was in Europe I'd look at the B&W ASW610 as a minimum in a smaller room as it is also quite musical, but doesn't offer much extension in the lows. The REL T7 would probably be be ideal. I have dual SVS SB-13 Ultras on my radar for the future.


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## cel4145

daerron said:


> . . . though I've heard reports of good matching with REL subwoofers . . .




REL subwoofers are a bit overpriced. Rythmik Audio makes great sealed subs that are better values than REL.


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## daerron

cel4145 said:


> REL subwoofers are a bit overpriced. Rythmik Audio makes great sealed subs that are better values than REL.


 
  
 Was more based in terms of Europe, though REL is pretty expensive over here too, but most US sub direct companies are not obtainable this side of the pond. REL subs are designed to be very fast and musical in order to improve stereo integration.
  
 In the US you have a lot more subwoofer options. I haven't heard Rythmik subs yet, but hear they are highly rated. Unfortunately I don't think they export and once you export they quickly lose their value proposition. SVS even with the high shipping charges still offer decent value for money and they have excellent customer service.


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## perplekks45

daerron said:


> Apologies for thread necro, but like to add a couple of points.
> 
> The LS50 definitely needs a fast sub, so I would definitely suggest a sealed sub, though I've heard reports of good matching with REL subwoofers, which always tended to be a bit more musical. I'm using a Velodyne 12" SPL-1200 Ultra with my LS50s and have the KEFs crossed over at 80Hz and it integrates quite well, though the Velodyne does lag a smidgen. I think the 10" might be better due to the smaller driver, without really sacrificing that much on the low end. The interesting thing is that I've found the LS50s improved in sound when removing the low bass load on them. It seems to play a touch cleaner in the upper mids. If I was in Europe I'd look at the B&W ASW610 as a minimum in a smaller room as it is also quite musical, but doesn't offer much extension in the lows. The REL T7 would probably be be ideal. I have dual SVS SB-13 Ultras on my radar for the future.


 Not quite “holy thread revival, Batman!“ territory yet, but it's been a while. 

Thanks for the input. I did try out positioning the speakers differently and it lead to quite a bit more low end from the LS50. Add to that the McIntosh MHA-100 I bought today and I don't think I need a subwoofer after all. At least not right now.


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## cel4145

daerron said:


> Was more based in terms of Europe, though REL is pretty expensive over here too, but most US sub direct companies are not obtainable this side of the pond. REL subs are designed to be very fast and musical in order to improve stereo integration.
> 
> In the US you have a lot more subwoofer options. I haven't heard Rythmik subs yet, but hear they are highly rated. Unfortunately I don't think they export and once you export they quickly lose their value proposition. SVS even with the high shipping charges still offer decent value for money and they have excellent customer service.




You are right. Europe is not the greatest place to buy subwoofers. 

BTW: You might want to see these myths about subwoofers, particularly related to "fast" vs. "slow" (#3): http://www.data-bass.com/myths. That REL subs "are designed to be very fast and musical in order to improve stereo integration" is marketing buzzword hype. Not saying that they aren't good (although overpriced. If a sub has good frequency response curve, decent impulse response, lack of cabinet resonance, and low distortion, it will sound "musical" as long as it is enough sub for the room and the listening volume. There are other subs that can do that well


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## daerron

perplekks45 said:


> Not quite “holy thread revival, Batman!“ territory yet, but it's been a while.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well now I'm quite sorry! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That sure is one drool worthy piece of equipment for your KEF LS50s. Sure it must sound superb! Positioning them correctly does indeed help quite a bit, but I do like the added punch a sub provides.


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## perplekks45

daerron said:


> Well now I'm quite sorry!   That sure is one drool worthy piece of equipment for your KEF LS50s. Sure it must sound superb! Positioning them correctly does indeed help quite a bit, but I do like the added punch a sub provides.


 I already had the chance to listen to it with LS50 in the shop, in a proper listening room with 60 square meters, and it was stunning. Now awaiting delivery and then it will sit proudly in our living room. Can't wait! 

And, as my girlfriend already figured out, upgraditis will kick in again. It might just take longer with better and better gear.


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