# The Nameless Guide To PC Gaming Audio (with binaural headphone surround sound)



## NamelessPFG

[size=10.0pt]I'm writing this guide because I find myself having to repeat a lot of the same points while advising people here and correct misguided advice from others, so I figure that I can clear up a lot of the misconceptions, misunderstandings, and general confusion regarding PC gaming audio. I was especially inspired to do this by this Creative forum thread, which highlights a lot of the differences and why PC gaming audio has actually regressed over the last decade.[/size]

  [size=10.0pt] [/size]

  [size=10.0pt]This guide focuses more on the sound APIs and binaural audio technologies in PC games.* If you're looking for headphone advice:*[/size]

   

*-For a reasonably affordable all-rounder, there's the Sony MDR-MA900, which frequently sells for around US$150-155. Comfortable, doesn't require a dedicated amp, comfortable, has the positioning to be competitive, has the bass for a cinematic experience, and did I say comfortable?*

*-If you want a competitive advantage at a lower price point, there's the Audio-Technica ATH-AD700 at US$65-90, which is pretty much what everyone says it is. Huge soundstage, easy to drive, but practically no bass.*

*-If you like bass and treble in particular, the HiFiMan HE-400 at around US$350 is another good bet, and I actually didn't find them nearly as heavy as most people make them out to be. The midrange is recessed and has a strange texture over it, however.*

*-If you really want audiophile-class sound quality or just don't mind spending a lot of money on a headphone for gaming, any Stax Lambda system will do. Pricing for a Normal bias SR-Lambda (my personal favorite) with an SRD-6 or SRD-7 tends to hover around $300-330 on eBay these days, but keep in mind that you'll either need an SRD-series transformer box + speaker amp or an SRM-series dedicated amp for them to work at all, which means another $350-450 for an SRM-1/Mk2 Professional, maybe SRM-T1.*

*-For everything else, read Mad Lust Envy's Gaming Headphone Guide. He's sampled a lot more headphones than I have, most of them within a more reasonable price range, and some of which bassheads would find more appealing. Just keep in mind that he mentions the Astro Mixamp because he's a console-only gamer, and for PC gaming, a sound card will provide more features and better audio quality at less cost. Use the guide for headphone recommendations ONLY when looking for a PC gaming headphone.*

   

*Otherwise, please don't come looking to me for headphone and especially amp advice. I can tell you what's in popular use, but refuse to vouch for or against hardware I've never personally tried.*

   

  [size=10.0pt]That said, I am approaching this with headphone surround sound in mind, hence the mention of binaural technologies for headphones. However, some of the information within may be useful to those using speaker systems.[/size]

   

  [size=10.0pt]Also note that I'm focusing largely on the Win9x-and-later period of PC games, when 3D audio was considered the next big thing and having a sound card to handle it was crucial for any gaming PC. For DOS games that rely heavily on sound card synthesis, you're best off doing research at the VOGONS forum, which specializes in retro PC gaming. There's a few threads there discussing what sound cards are best for DOS games.[/size]

   

  [size=10.0pt]The major parts of the guide are now spoiler-tagged so that it's not such a long, wordy post at first glance and it's easy to get to the part you're looking for. (I wish I noticed that forum feature before...)[/size]

  [size=10.0pt][/size]

   

*APIs and middleware found in PC games:*

   



Spoiler: APIs%20and%20middleware%20found%20in%20PC%20games



-DirectSound3D. It gives the sound card driver the 3D coordinates of in-game sounds and lets the sound card handle where and how to play them. Most games made in the timeframe when Windows 98 SE and Windows XP were the mainstream OSes use this API, but it was removed in Windows Vista. Fortunately, there are many workarounds for this, such as Creative ALchemy, GX2.5/Xear3D on C-Media cards, and Realtek 3DSoundBack.
   
  Most games that use DirectSound3D use the Miles Sound System middleware (see below), but not all.
   

  -OpenAL. Functions similarly to DirectSound3D, but is independent of the OS and thus does not need ALchemy or so forth to work (in fact, OpenAL continuing to work is why those programs work in the first place). Some games use OpenAL natively, such as Amnesia: The Dark Descent, Battlefield 2, Battlefield 2142, and anything that uses UnrealEngine2 (UT 2004).

   

  In addition, some OpenAL games (notably Codemasters racing titles) come bundled with Rapture3D, which does surround processing in software, including binaural headphone mixing (more on that in the "Binaural audio technologies" section). There are also payware versions (User and Advanced editions) that can be used with any OpenAL game.

   

  Games that use OpenAL generally have an OpenAL32.dll in their directories (which may interfere with the one in your Windows system directory in rare cases) or similarly-named files.

   

  * Special note for Amnesia: The Dark Descent; you need to do a bit of .ini file editing in order to use non-Generic Software OpenAL devices.

   

  -EAX is an extension to the two aforementioned APIs that allow for in-game reverb, chorus, and occlusion effects. If the sound device doesn't support them, then the effects are lost, resulting in something that sounds far more artificial, but most audio devices that aren't USB audio interfaces support at least EAX 2, being part of DirectSound3D itself. Only Creative hardware does EAX 3/4/5 natively, however; C-Media cards emulate them, to varying degrees of effectiveness.

   

  It's very important to note that any EAX presets in the sound card driver with room names that add tons of reverb to every sound played, in-game or out, are NOT what I am talking about here, and those are best left off. The game will decide what settings to use automatically. For X-Fi users, leave EAX enabled and at 0.0db in Game Mode.

   

  -Aureal A3D. It's the API that preceded DirectSound3D and kickstarted the 3D audio revolution in the first place. It was a big competitor to Creative's DS3D + EAX approach back in the Win98 days and allowed for binaural HRTF mixing over stereo speakers and headphones. Almost every audio device supports A3D 1.0 in the same way they do EAX 1/2, but A3D 2.0 and 3.0 with wavetracing and other added features remain the sole domain of sound cards based on Aureal's Vortex chipsets (see below). However, it's been dead for over a decade, and practically every game that supports A3D also supports DS3D + EAX.

   

  So why does A3D exist alongside DirectSound3D? Long story short, the DirectX 3 implementation of DirectSound3D didn't allow for third-party 3D processing by passing the 3D audio coordinates to the sound device. This was thankfully rectified in DirectX 5 onward, making DS3D work like I mentioned above.

   

  * Okay, only recently did I notice that A3D was more of an API on its own and less of a DirectSound3D extension like EAX. It's easy to confuse the two because most games that support A3D also support DS3D. I really need to familiarize myself more with what A3D actually is and what it can do, but it doesn't help that Aureal used "A3D" to refer to multiple technologies, up to and including a full-blown audio middleware for game engines in the A3D 3.0 days, nor does it help that they were buried a long time ago after Creative bought them out.

   

  -XAudio2 + X3DAudio. It pre-mixes sounds based on the Windows speaker setting before it even hits the sound card driver, and is one of the more common APIs used in newer games. While this does make all sound devices perform on a more even field, being entirely software-driven, it keeps Creative hardware from working at its best.

   

  -FMOD. A very prevalent sound middleware system in modern games, with several major revisions. Older revisions may have allowed an OpenAL passthrough, but the latest iteration (FMOD Ex) does not appear to and instead mixes everything in software like XAudio2, likewise reading the Windows speaker setting to decide how to mix it. I wouldn't be surprised if it actually handled the output with XAudio2.

   

  Games that have FMOD Ex generally have a fmodex.dll in their directories.

   

  -Miles Sound System. Another fairly popular middleware system, but not as common as FMOD in modern games. Mostly used in titles based on Valve's Source engine, but also featured in GTA III/Vice City/San Andreas and a few other games. The version used in Source engine games defaults to software mixing unless you set snd_legacy_surround 1 in the console to enable DirectSound3D mode, but older versions generally have a DirectSound3D passthrough, both with and without EAX and A3D extensions.

   

  Windows games that use MSS generally have a Mss32.dll in their directories.


   

*Binaural audio technologies:*

   



Spoiler: Binaural%20audio%20technologies



-CMSS-3D Headphone, only found on Creative X-Fi cards. When faced with a DirectSound3D or OpenAL game, it is aware of the exact position in each sound and presents a true binaural sound with a sense of height and distance, as well as seamlessness when sounds rotate around the listener. With games that use one of the software audio APIs/middlewares, however, it is limited to virtual 7.1 at the most. It's also important to set the Windows speaker setting to 5.1 or 7.1 and the X-Fi control panel to Headphones, as Creative themselves instruct. (Why the drivers don't do this automatically is beyond me.)
   

  Do not confuse it with CMSS-3D Virtual (a similar technology, but for stereo speakers in front of the listener) or CMSS-3D Surround (a stereo upmix feature to make two-channel sources output over the surround speakers).

   

  -Dolby Headphone, found on practically everything else. It is limited to virtual 7.1 in all cases, even DS3D and OAL games that sound binaural with CMSS-3D, but still provides a reasonably good sense of surround sound.

   

  * Because these technologies are based on generic/average HRTFs, which are inherently unique for every listener, your mileage WILL vary. Some prefer one, others prefer the other, and still others don't like either and only play in stereo (left/right panning only).

   

  -Rapture3D. A software OpenAL driver from Blue Ripple Sound, and as such it only works on OpenAL games. It's listed here because it offers binaural mixing regardless of your hardware, with no less than six different HRTFs to choose from! Unfortunately, for Vista/Win7, enabling this option over headphones requires setting Windows' speaker setting to stereo so that Rapture3D's speaker layout control panel can switch to "Headphone Stereo (Compat.)"; otherwise, it just outright refuses to switch. HRTF options can be found under the Decoder tab.

   

  It also supports OpenAL-native EFX effects for reverb/chorus/occlusion/etc., but not EAX.

   

  -MyEars. Claims to be personalized, and being a software solution, it works with any audio device. I haven't tested this yet, but I have my doubts that it can be used with hardware-accelerated EAX since it requires a "virtual audio cable" to be set as the default audio device. There's also the potential issue of the subscription-based business model, needing to pay $20 year after year.

   

To understand how such technologies work out in practice, download these recorded videos and listen to them. (Thanks, Ilya-s!) While most of it is in Russian, there's enough in English to understand which games were recorded with what hardware and settings; "X-Fi" always uses CMSS-3D Headphone, while "Xonar" is plain stereo and "Xonar DH" uses Dolby Headphone, as you'd expect.


   

*Sound card chipsets:*

   



Spoiler: Sound%20card%20chipsets



-Creative X-Fi EMU20k1 (PCI)/EMU20k2 (PCI-Express). Boasts EAX 5 (Game Mode), CMSS-3D Headphone, ASIO (Audio Creation Mode, needed for bit-matched playback), and in some cases, Dolby Digital Live and DTS Connect (either already included or as a purchase from Creative). Unfortunately, there are cards like the XtremeAudio line, the Auzentech X-Fi Bravura, and Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1 that do not have the true X-Fi DSP and replicate all functionality in software; this can be proven by their lack of Game Mode and Audio Creation Mode. Otherwise, most other X-Fi branded products have the DSP, and even a select few motherboards in Gigabyte's G1-series lineup.
   
  -Creative Sound Core3D, used in the Recon3D, the upcoming Z-series cards, and newer Gigabyte G1-series motherboards. They're actually codec-based devices that handle all audio processing in software, just like X-Fi MB-based products, the XtremeAudio cards, etc., and have actually LOST functionality compared to proper X-Fi cards as a whole. I'd suggest steering clear of these, unless you want the Recon3D USB due to its support for consoles with Dolby Digital output while having some PC gaming support.
   

  -C-Media Oxygen HD. Frequently boasts Dolby Headphone, Dolby Digital Live, DTS Connect, and/or ASIO. The entire Asus Xonar line uses them, along with HT Omega and Auzentech (for those that aren't X-Fi products in the latter case). EAX emulation and DirectSound3D-to-OpenAL wrapping is provided by DS3DGX (Xonar), or possibly Xear3D on non-Xonar cards; they may very well be the same thing, just rebranded (like how the CMI8788 Oxygen HD chipset itself is rebranded the Asus AV200). If Xonar users want to try drivers more in line with other C-Media cards, there are modified driver packages available.

   

  -Creative EMU10k1 (Live!) and EMU10k2 (Audigy). Boasts EAX 2 (Live!) or EAX 4 (Audigy) and an earlier form of CMSS that only seems to function like CMSS-3D Surround does now, so it's not of much use to headphone users. Particularly notable in that they can use the third-party kX Project drivers and gain binaural surround if you know how to configure the Surrounder plugin, but they do enforce hardware resampling to 48 KHz whenever the DSP is used. Also, in my experience with a Live! card and kX testing out EAX under RightMark 3DSound's positioning accuracy test, the EAX effects were nonfunctional and not present in spite of the system thinking it could support up to EAX 3.0. Unless you really, _really_ like the kX Project drivers, you're better off with one of the newer cards.

   

  -Aureal Vortex (2). Very noteworthy line of cards from the Win9x era that are the only ones to offer A3D 2.0 and 3.0 support along with limited EAX 1 support, but Creative basically bought Aureal out to bury a competitor. Not recommended for WinXP or later due to their abandonment after said acquisition.

   

  -Realtek codecs. There's bound to be one on your desktop motherboard right now-they're just that prolific. Guaranteed to support EAX 2 and 3DSoundBack for DirectSound3D-to-OpenAL wrapping, but anything beyond that largely depends on your motherboard drivers. Some of these may include the X-Fi MB driver packages, which works a lot like the XtremeAudio cards in that it handles EAX and CMSS-3D Headphone in software and only has Entertainment Mode, along with Creative ALchemy as the DirectSound3D wrapper of choice over 3DSoundBack.

   

  -NVIDIA SoundStorm, generally found on old nForce2-based motherboards from the Athlon XP days. It combines a DSP in the motherboard chipset with a typical motherboard audio codec for analog output (usually a Realtek ALC650) and generally offers 5.1 analog output along with coaxial S/PDIF. The kicker? It processes EAX 1/2 in hardware AND has guaranteed Dolby Digital Live (often renamed Dolby Digital ICE or anything along those lines)! But since NVIDIA discontinued it with nForce3 onward, it's not really relevant these days.


   

*Method for using sound card as DSP to output to any audio device, including USB ones, in Windows 7 (thanks, SniperCzar!):*

   



Spoiler: Method%20for%20using%20sound%20card%20as%20DSP%20to%20output%20to%20any%20audio%20device



Note that this only works in Windows 7. Vista and prior don't have the required feature.
   

  1. Right click on your volume tray in Windows 7 and select "Recording devices"
  2. Select "What U Hear" and click "Properties" (cringe inducing grammar there Creative)
  [Note - you do NOT have to set this as the default recording device]
  3. Select the "Listen" tab and check the box marked "Listen to this device"
  4. Under the drop down marked "Playback through this device:" select your desired DAC
  5. Make sure "Continue running when on battery power" is selected as a software passthrough should have no effect whatsoever on your battery life
  6. Select the "Levels" tab and set it to something comfortable, as the volume control for the Creative card's standard output will have no effect on the volume of the software recording device.
  7. Enjoy listening to CMSS-3D, freed from the noisy and inferior hardware confines of your internal soundcard!


   

*Useful software utilities:*

   



Spoiler: Useful%20software%20utilities



-RightMark 3DSound. The positioning accuracy test in particular is very useful to check EAX functionality up to 4, as well as the accuracy of positional audio in general, but it does use DirectSound3D and require a wrapper. The CPU utilization test can be used to check DirectSound3D and OpenAL capability flags as well.


   

*Common misconceptions:*

   



Spoiler: Common%20misconceptions



-Myth: EAX and hardware-accelerated audio are completely dead in Vista onward.
  -Fact: This is why ALchemy, GX2.5/Xear3D, 3DSoundBack, etc. exist; to restore games that utilize it via DirectSound3D by wrapping the calls to the still-functional OpenAL API. Note that games that use EAX via OpenAL, such as Battlefield 2, do not need these applications. Even if the game doesn't explicitly mention EAX but uses DirectSound3D, it will still benefit because without them, DirectSound3D games only output in stereo, with no surround support for use with the aforementioned binaural technologies.

   

  -Myth: EAX handles 3D positional audio in old games.

  -Fact: As mentioned above, EAX solely adds reverb/chorus/occlusion processing to sound effects. The actual task of positioning sounds in 3D space is left to either the DirectSound3D or OpenAL API, whichever the game uses.

   

  And even though EAX is accessed through those two APIs, don't automatically assume that every game with EAX support is going to have 3D positional audio. I found this out the hard way with Serious Sam: The First Encounter and The Second Encounter (original releases, not the HD remakes), which do support EAX, but have NO support for 3D positional audio whatsoever. It still sounds like software-mixed stereo, just with some added reverb and chorus effects depending on what environment you're in.

   

  -Myth: Sound card DSP effects for gaming do not carry through S/PDIF.

  -Fact: They do go through S/PDIF. I've tested it myself with RightMark 3DSound's positional audio test (uses DirectSound3D, so be sure to point ALchemy or other wrappers to the installation directory). This makes the combination of a sound card as a DSP and an external DAC with S/PDIF input a plausible upgrade option, as the sound card's lesser analog circuitry is still bypassed.

   

However, arbitrary driver decisions may prevent some DSP features from working over S/PDIF anyway, such as Dolby Headphone on Xonar cards. Migi06 has confirmed that Dolby Headphone passes through S/PDIF on Asus Xonar cards.

   

  -Myth: S/PDIF (coaxial/optical digital audio) cannot do surround sound!

  -Fact: I believe this misconception also made people believe in the above one about DSP effects not working. The problem is actually that PC games output all their surround channels in uncompressed PCM format (with few exceptions), and S/PDIF only has enough bandwidth for two channels of PCM. To fit more in, you need a codec like Dolby Digital or DTS.

   

  The problem is, most games do not encode Dolby Digital or DTS on-the-fly, so the sound output device needs to support Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect for it to sound as intended. Once that's done, external A/V receivers and headphone DSPs like the Astro Mixamp, Turtle Beach Ear Force DSS, and JVC/Victor SU-DH1 will actually have some surround information to work with.


   

*Important links:*

   

  -OpenAL configuration guide

  -Daniel_K X-Fi Support Pack 2.5

  -X-Fi Titanium HD drivers

  -Xonar Unified Drivers

  -Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide

  -Ilya-S's stereo/binaural game video comparison

   

That's the end of the guide for now. I'll update it as time goes on and new features and technologies are discovered and deprecated and so forth. I hope it helps people looking for advice on gaming audio, much as the aforementioned Mad Lust Envy thread has.

   

*Also, I would appreciate feedback if you find this guide a bit hard-to-read and can think of ways to make it more understandable for the average person.*

   

*I'd also appreciate some more knowledge wherever Aureal A3D is concerned. It's only just now that I'm realizing how mistaken I might have been in a few key areas, like thinking it was a DS3D extension ala EAX instead of being its own API that just happens to be implemented frequently along with DS3D + EAX in most older games.*


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## Mad Lust Envy

Though I'm not a PC gamer, I'm still very interested in this thread. I know it should help greatly to those non-console gamers.

BTW, I edited my first post on my thread to link people here.


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## chicolom

Nice!   This gets much more in depth on the PC tech side of things. 
   
  Great job!


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## Mad Lust Envy

Like Chico said on my thread, you should add keywords like surround sound, headphones, gaming to your post, so search engines can link you. 

I google stuff for gaming, and my damn thread shows up everywhere. Both a pro and con. XD

I'm not a pro at all, so it's a bit overwhelming, lol. I hope people understand that it's a hobby and I'm sure there are plenty of others who could walk all over me with their knowledge on the same things (like MLG Steggy, KBI, etc).


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## Mad Lust Envy

I hope people warm up to Nameless quickly, because guides like this can really influence a large group of people. I didn't realize how important my guide would be on here. It's a relatively small thing on AVS, but on here... it's big... O_O


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## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Like Chico said on my thread, you should add keywords like surround sound, headphones, gaming to your post, so search engines can link you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Duly noted, but it doesn't seem like I can tag the thread or anything at this point.
   
  At the very least, I added a paragraph mentioning its perspective from someone who favors binaural surround sound through headphones, while keeping in mind that speaker users may still benefit from it. I just hope the search engines catch on.


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## chicolom

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> It's a relatively small thing on AVS, but on here... it's big... O_O


 


  Anything of note happening on the AVS thread?  I haven't checked it in a long time.  I hate the engine that powers that forum.  The Head-Fi forum (huddler) is so much more aesthetically pleasing.  Head-Fi Subscriptions FTW....


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## Phos

A while back I figured out a funny thing about creative's drivers: the CMSS test you can do in game mode is a premixed audio file. Open the console with  a different device set as the default output and it still plays same as ever. I need to retest to refresh my memory. 
   
  Also for me the creative console and my windows sound settings stay in sync, if I set 7.1 in the control panel it changes in the console. No idea why, this is the opposite of what creative claims should happen. 
   
  One thing I've been curious about is if the Nvidia cards with HDMI ports and built in audio devices are able to encode 5.1.  
   
  Im not sure if you should add Rapture3D or not, for games that support it it's very good.


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## chicolom

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Duly noted, but it doesn't seem like I can tag the thread or anything at this point.
> 
> At the very least, I added a paragraph mentioning its perspective from someone who favors binaural surround sound through headphones, while keeping in mind that speaker users may still benefit from it. I just hope the search engines catch on.


 

 Just edit the thread title and add the words, so google gets them.


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## Mad Lust Envy

Chico: Nothing really, just interest in the newer gaming headsets, something we both don't really care for anymore with stuff like the antlion modmic around.


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## chicolom

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Chico: Nothing really, just interest in the newer gaming headsets, something we both don't really care for anymore with stuff like the antlion modmic around.


 

 They're still waiting on the vaporware Tritton Warheads probably...


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## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





phos said:


> A while back I figured out a funny thing about creative's drivers: the CMSS test you can do in game mode is a premixed audio file. Open the console with  a different device set as the default output and it still plays same as ever. I need to retest to refresh my memory.
> 
> Also for me the creative console and my windows sound settings stay in sync, if I set 7.1 in the control panel it changes in the console. No idea why, this is the opposite of what creative claims should happen.
> 
> ...


 

 Huh, I'll have to test that out for myself...but note that my preferred mode of positional testing is with RightMark 3DSound's positioning accuracy test.
   
  I should probably add Rapture3D at some point, though I can't use it with any OpenAL title that isn't DiRT 2 without paying money. Even then, I have issues with setting it to Headphones so I can put its binaural audio mode to the test; it must have been made with Windows XP's speaker settings in mind, whereas Vista and Win7 offer no "headphones" option, just stereo.
   
  Also awaiting an entry to the guide is MyEars, but I haven't gotten around to testing it and something unnerves me about the subscription-based business model. Unlike most binaural surround technologies, it does allow for some degree of customization to better fit the user's HRTF, but works by using a "virtual audio cable" as the default audio device. Not good if it means I lose EAX in those older titles outright.
   
  Quote: 





chicolom said:


> Just edit the thread title and add the words, so google gets them.


 

 Easier said than done when I can't figure out a way to edit the thread title by editing the first post!
   
  ...Wait a minute. There's an "Edit Thread" button. Damn you, muscle memory! (Or interface memory, as it were; most forums give you the thread title field by editing the first post.)


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## obobskivich

Nice write-up. Some things I noticed:
   
  - You may want to explain that Asus boards are C-Media based; I didn't catch that (and that's the biggie for EAX emulation)
   
  - Thank god someone else "gets" EAX and the real limitations of S/PDIF
   
   
   
  No idea if you're planning to list hardware/software that supports DDL/DTS:C (DDL being far more common due to licencing), but a quickie list:
   
  Creative SB Audigy 1 - 4 
  Creative SB X-Fi 
  Turtle Beach Montego DDL
  Asus Xonar 
  I also want to say that the Auzen X-Raider, X-Plosion, and X-Merdians (both) have DDL
  And some of the more obscure C-Media stuff, like the Sondigo, and HT Omega boards as well
  No idea about the Onkyo boards; I've never heard of them getting very far outside of Japan for that matter. Apparently the new one has an X-Fi chipset, but it's supposed to be right around $500. 
   
  Generally the exclusions will be USB audio controllers (they are *not* "USB DACs"), I believe that includes Extigy (unfortunately), and integrated/onboard solutions. It's mostly a licence issue from what I've gathered; which is partly why DTS-Connect is relatively rare for WindowsXP systems. So this situation may change with time, although more likely is that HDMI and MPCM will just over-take S/PDIF for this application. 'course there's also always analog mch, but who does that?
   
  Again, super-nice write-up!


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## NamelessPFG

I appreciate the suggestions and will be adding to the guide over time. I just wanted to knock some of the basic stuff down first and expand from there, eventually delving into sound cards and chipsets (of which there are several I will cover, most of which you mentioned) and other features like DDL and DTS:C.
   
  I just say "USB DAC" because it's common parlance around here and other audiophile forums, though "USB audio controller" does make more sense.
   
  Also, the mention of Onkyo boards reminds me of that SE-300PCIE card. I'd love to get my hands on one of those, but the cost and general non-availability outside of Japan makes it highly impractical. Other cards might also be notable, but not X-Fi based (and my love of older games really complicates things as far as that's concerned).
   
  And finally, I realized that I need to add a list of useful utilities for checking things like positional accuracy and DirectSound3D or OpenAL capability flags...


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## obobskivich

The biggest roadblock to the Onkyo cards that I'm aware of is the Japanese-language drivers, which can cause trouble with non-Japanese implementations (in other words, it may not even run correctly on English versions of Windows, and it's somewhat hard to make adjustments if you don't speak the language). This is based on the SE200 though, no idea if this situation is different for the SE300. The older Onkyo boards are VIA based; the only other current production VIA based boards are from M-Audio (the Delta series). As far as I know none of them do DDL, but again, the Onkyo may (I would expect at least the SE300 to have these features, since it's X-Fi based). 
   
  There's not many other chipsets worth mentioning, at least for gaming (at least that I can think of), aside from the last decade of Sound Blaster, and C-Media; VIA is too obscure anymore (honestly, when was the last time you had someone ask about an M-Audio Revolution or Chaintech AV710?); M-Audio aside (and the Delta boards are very long in the tooth, and very user un-friendly compared to Asus and Creative offerings). Would love to see a (well organized) list put together that elucidates all of the internal variations of Sound Blaster though; most people are convinced they've got a true Audigy or X-Fi and instead are looking at something...quite different. Might also want to talk about SRC (and why it isn't the boogey-man that most detractors make it out to be unless you've managed to track down a first-gen, pureblood Audigy 1).
   
  The USB thing is a cause I gave up on years ago, but it seems that the "new era" here is a bit more receptive to the voice of reason.


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## iHasCake

as a pc gamer 90% of the time (i have to play fighting games on consoles), i've been waiting for this thread


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## RPGWiZaRD

Yea finally some PC gaming love, I don't like consoles and haven't owned any since the days of Sega Mega drive and earlier a NES me and my bro got as xmas present when I was a small kid.
   
  I'd like to bring up the discussion of speaker config setup. Do you use stereo or like me 5.1 with headphones? For me 5.1 works a whole lot better positioning wise and provides very good position in lots of games to me without using any extra fancy stuff like Dolby Headphone or CMSS-3D or whatever.
   
  Noteworthy examples would be most Unreal Engine 3 based games, in Unreal Tournament 3 and BulletStorm for example it works wonderfully as well as Bethesda games, well Skyrim doesn't even sound properly in stereo mode for starters haha. I can easily tell directions, behind and in front and the positioning is also very smooth so it follows you more like on a 360 degree scale and doesn't suddenly jump from "center" to front right to rear right etc when turning around, it's a very smooth panning of the sound direction.


----------



## thefranklin

Great guide, thanks.




rpgwizard said:


> Yea finally some PC gaming love, I don't like consoles and haven't owned any since the days of Sega Mega drive and earlier a NES me and my bro got as xmas present when I was a small kid.
> 
> I'd like to bring up the discussion of speaker config setup. Do you use stereo or like me 5.1 with headphones? For me 5.1 works a whole lot better positioning wise and provides very good position in lots of games to me without using any extra fancy stuff like Dolby Headphone or CMSS-3D or whatever.
> 
> Noteworthy examples would be most Unreal Engine 3 based games, in Unreal Tournament 3 and BulletStorm for example it works wonderfully as well as Bethesda games, well Skyrim doesn't even sound properly in stereo mode for starters haha. I can easily tell directions, behind and in front and the positioning is also very smooth so it follows you more like on a 360 degree scale and doesn't suddenly jump from "center" to front right to rear right etc when turning around, it's a very smooth panning of the sound direction.




Maybe a list or tiers of good audio games? It would be nice to know which games are accurate for positional audio, and of course which ones are more fun.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> There's not many other chipsets worth mentioning, at least for gaming (at least that I can think of), aside from the last decade of Sound Blaster, and C-Media; VIA is too obscure anymore (honestly, when was the last time you had someone ask about an M-Audio Revolution or Chaintech AV710?); M-Audio aside (and the Delta boards are very long in the tooth, and very user un-friendly compared to Asus and Creative offerings). Would love to see a (well organized) list put together that elucidates all of the internal variations of Sound Blaster though; most people are convinced they've got a true Audigy or X-Fi and instead are looking at something...quite different. Might also want to talk about SRC (and why it isn't the boogey-man that most detractors make it out to be unless you've managed to track down a first-gen, pureblood Audigy 1).


 

 I knew VIA made audio chipsets too, but couldn't think of any examples off the top of my head. There's also another chipset from the Win9x era that the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz and some other cards were based on, but again, too old.
   
  I'd also bring up Creative's new Sound Core3D products (mostly Recon3D-branded), but I don't know very much about them at the moment, other than that word is that they're actually a downgrade from the existing X-Fi line in gaming performance. Not reassuring, but the only way to know for sure is hands-on experience and testing.
   
  A complete list of Sound Blasters and their variants...hoo boy. Creative won't make that one easy. Even ignoring all the classic ISA cards that VOGONS regularly discusses (which has a working wavetable daughterboard header, which has a genuine Yamaha OPL3 for FM synth, which has the ASP/CSP, that sort of thing; Creative sure changes up the "same" card a lot), there's still a fair bit of variance in the X-Fi lineup alone.
   
  Sample rate conversion...I know the older Live!/Audigy ones have DSPs that only work on 48 KHz audio. Not sure about the X-Fi or C-Media lineup, but one of the major improvements with the X-Fi DSP was the SRC engine itself, or so they say. It's probably not an issue with modern cards regardless, especially if you know how to set things up right and the card has ASIO support.
  
  Quote: 





rpgwizard said:


> Yea finally some PC gaming love, I don't like consoles and haven't owned any since the days of Sega Mega drive and earlier a NES me and my bro got as xmas present when I was a small kid.
> 
> I'd like to bring up the discussion of speaker config setup. Do you use stereo or like me 5.1 with headphones? For me 5.1 works a whole lot better positioning wise and provides very good position in lots of games to me without using any extra fancy stuff like Dolby Headphone or CMSS-3D or whatever.
> 
> Noteworthy examples would be most Unreal Engine 3 based games, in Unreal Tournament 3 and BulletStorm for example it works wonderfully as well as Bethesda games, well Skyrim doesn't even sound properly in stereo mode for starters haha. I can easily tell directions, behind and in front and the positioning is also very smooth so it follows you more like on a 360 degree scale and doesn't suddenly jump from "center" to front right to rear right etc when turning around, it's a very smooth panning of the sound direction.


 

 I'm PC-first when it comes to gaming because I like the flexibility it offers, though my small collection of retro consoles shows that I'm not against console gaming in general. However, Mad Lust Envy has that area well covered.
   
  I set 5.1/7.1 in the Windows speaker setting at all times; I hear no audible difference from setting that to stereo. X-Fi control panel stays on Headphones, as usual, and I also hear no differences between that and one of the many speaker modes. For that matter, I don't hear any general audio differences between Game Mode and Audio Creation Mode.
   
  For UT3, it's CMSS-3D Headphone without question; it uses OpenAL, after all. (Too bad a later UE3 version switched to XAudio2 by default, severely gimping CMSS-3D Headphone in the process. As a result, later UE3 games like Bulletstorm probably aren't using OpenAL.) But maybe I'll try it at some point, just for the sake of experimentation and knowledge.
  
  Quote: 





thefranklin said:


> Great guide, thanks.
> Maybe a list or tiers of good audio games? It would be nice to know which games are accurate for positional audio, and of course which ones are more fun.


 

 In positioning terms, DirectSound3D and OpenAL are on top, though the rest depends on what your sound card can do with the 3D audio coordinates they provide.
   
  That said, most games with software-mixed 7.1 at least provide a fairly good sense of surround, though Battlefield: Bad Company 2 needs to be called out on its lacking sense of directionality for anything (which never happens in the first four games that used DS3D or OAL). On the other hand, the sounds themselves certainly fall into the "fun" category, what with the bombastic blockbuster movie sound War Tapes provides and all...


----------



## BababooeyHTJ

Have you tried Thx tru-studio on your Titanium HD. Its really not bad. The positional audio may not be as good as cmss3d for the most part but the hit in audio quality is hardly noticeable. There is a good chance that if you leave it on and listen to some music that you aren't going to notice. It also appears to be the replacement for cmss3d which isn't appearing on creative's latest sound cards.


----------



## LilBuck

I tried asking this in MLE's thread but got a few answers: With a Xonar DG running to a DAC/AMP combo can I still have surround in video games from dolby headphone? Does it depend on the amp?


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I set 5.1/7.1 in the Windows speaker setting at all times; I hear no audible difference from setting that to stereo. X-Fi control panel stays on Headphones, as usual, and I also hear no differences between that and one of the many speaker modes. For that matter, I don't hear any general audio differences between Game Mode and Audio Creation Mode.


 

  Yea I didn't hear as big difference, if any on the Titanium HD TBH as it seems Creative does their own way of handling speaker config with the Creative software having its own speaker config system etc. But with all other soundcards where the windows speaker config is usually linked with the driver software, especially this Realtek HD onboard chip there's a big difference in sound using stereo vs 5.1, I always have it set like this but the "plugged in device" is ofc set as "headphone" (same settings appear if going through windows control panel):
   

   
  If you got a realtek onboard hd chip I'd give it a try. (especially listen to music while changing back and forth for an immediate comparision)


----------



## obobskivich

On the SRC:
   
  The original Live! cards force SRC, and the Audigy (as in Audigy 1, the original) will force SRC, as their DSP engines only work at 48khz. Audigy 2 fixed this, and will only perform SRC if you have to run a signal through the DSP engine - if you're running the card "straight" (no EAX, no CMSS, no EQ performed by the card, etc) it can run native up to whatever the top end is (96k for 6.1, 192k for stereo). If you have to do any sort of DSP stuff, it will SRC to 48k internally. It's just the chip. Audigy 2 ZS and Audigy 4 do the same. The E-MU boards based on the 10k2 have the same limitation, but (potentially) better ASIO drivers (the Creative ASIO driver is not bad). 
   
  The X-Fi (20k1/20k2) can similarly run "straight" and do no SRC, but it can also run "straight" at any sample rate that it wants (from 32 up to 192k). I've never gotten a 100% bona-fide answer on Entertainment Mode outside of 48k; it supports higher and lower sample rates, and you can indeed force such sample rates within Windows, but I don't know if the engine itself is re-clocking (like you would see with an M-Audio board). That said, the SRC engine in the X-Fi is very good; Creative's whitepaper for the 20k1 specifies the SRC's noise at somewhere around -135 dB (10k2 is somewhere around -95 dB iirc). In other words, it should be transparent no matter what you're plugging it into (that was their goal). SRC is part of the X-Fi design both to deal with mismatched inputs (which is also why the Audigy does it, the difference is that Audigy has a fixed internal rate (48k) whereas X-Fi can pick whatever it wants), and I believe it still applies DSP effects at 48k but don't quote me on that (I can go dig the papers out if you really want). 
   
  I have no idea about the non-hardware X-Fi or Audigy boards; the ones that do software EAX or won't do DS3D H/W, as they generally aren't doing any processing aside from DtoA and AtoD on the board. They're basically dolled up codecs. Not actually a bad model, considering the changes in audio that Windows Vista brought about (and the changes in what people need for their computers to do; unless you need the I/O abilities of the expensive DSP, why buy into it when you can get the same fidelity for playback elsewhere?). 
   
  The VIA chipsets are probably more common as onboard solutions these days, but I may be mistaken (in other words, that might have ended too). Anything that says "Vinyl Audio" or "Envy Audio" is almost certainly VIA. I wouldn't consider them too old, at least in context of Head-Fi, as I'm guessing there's quite a few people using Delta or Delta Audiophile boards as part of their PC setup. You can treat them as basically a dolled up codec though, at least for the purposes of your guide; they don't have a lot of h/w support (aside from the TOTL model, Envy24) and don't do anything special for EAX or similar (The one that does h/w assist just lowers CPU usage, it doesn't get you EAX 3/4/5 like the Sound Blaster chips do). 
   
  C-Media, I don't know as much about. From what I know about the 8788 (which is your Asus AV200), SRC is possible, but I don't believe it's forced. The chip can throw a lot of I/O around (at least on the level of the E-MU 10k2, if not more), and no consumer solutions fully take advantage (consider the E-MU 1820 vs the Audigy 2 ZS, both use the same chipset; there's no "E-MU 1820" for the 8788). Most of it's DSP/enhancement stuff comes from C-Media's software packages (Xear, EQ, etc) or third-party software (Dolby Headphone, DTS NeoC), contrasted to Creative doing everything in-house. The "big one" for the C-Media boards is probably Dolby Headphone (along with a lot of other Dolby branded solutions). The lower-down C-Media chips seem to be less popular as time goes on, and 8788 boards seem to get cheaper (the Sondigo was a great example of this, but it seems to have gone away). Asus buys and re-brands a couple of C-Media chips; I don't know all of the equivalents (and they keep claiming it's new IP) apart from the AV200. 
   
  The Turtle Beach you mentioned uses a Crystal/Cirrus DSP (admittedly, I had to look that one up). Some of the other TB boards (like the Montego) use Aureal chips. I know there's also some ancient boards out there that use ESS DSPs, but I doubt you can get official drivers for Windows 2000 for most of that hardware, let alone anything modern. The only "worthy mention" for Turtle Beach is the DDL enabled Montego, I believe there was a Diamond branded card (that looked near identical) that was similar, XS71 if memory serves. Their cards with h/w accel should get you EAX 2 and A3D, but the DSP isn't anything to write home about (compared to the 10k2, 8788, or 20k1/2), and I'd be somewhat concerned about support going forwards. Shame really, the Montego was my "suggestion of choice" for people who needed DDL or other features on a budget. 
   
  As far as the whole "5.1/7.1 vs headphone" mode configuration, my thoughts:
   
  - I set everything up to "Stereo" or "Headphones" (when available) and leave it be. Some games have a "Headphones" mode that's truly spectacular. There was a time when I had the audio-card processing in 5.1 (in other words everything was set to 5.1, and a 5.1 signal was coming out) and dumping that into an outboard DSP for mix-down to stereo, and then feeding that into my headphones (and the whole thing had to re-lock if it wanted to switch into stereo). I don't feel I've lost anything in terms of positional accuracy or fidelity by removing the outboard equipment and just setting "Stereo." 
   
  - The L/R-main output from 5.1/6.1/7.1/etc with stereo music should be identical to the headphone/2.0/4.0 modes (despite some claims to the contrary), unless you're using a matrix up-mix scheme (CMSS, Dolby). 
   
  - Game Mode on an X-Fi board will get you EAX 5 and CMSS features that are conventionally unavailable, I believe it forces SRC to accomplish this though. Creative's claim is that with all of the processing bypassed, the card should be transparent in all three modes, SRC or no, due to the improvements (to be honest, the Audigy already hit this, -95 dB is pretty far down there). That said, Game Mode's CMSS processing can have a nasty effect on music and movies, so I don't like the feature for "daily use" as a result (it is, as you've mentioned, brilliant with games). 
   
  The above points only apply to the Sound Blaster cards, other solutions likely need their own configuration tweaks, as RPGWizard points out. The "5.1 to headphones" is a common suggestion I've seen for RealTek built-in solutions for years; surprisingly I've never actually had a RealTek integrated (I think I've hit every other integrated audio device out there, and somehow passed right over RealTek; no idea how that happened).
  
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I knew VIA made audio chipsets too, but couldn't think of any examples off the top of my head. There's also another chipset from the Win9x era that the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz and some other cards were based on, but again, too old.
> 
> I'd also bring up Creative's new Sound Core3D products (mostly Recon3D-branded), but I don't know very much about them at the moment, other than that word is that they're actually a downgrade from the existing X-Fi line in gaming performance. Not reassuring, but the only way to know for sure is hands-on experience and testing.
> 
> ...


 


  Amp doesn't matter; it's taking an analog input. Is the DAC taking a S/PDIF signal from the Xonar? If yes, then you're good to go. Doesn't matter what the S/PDIF receiver is. If the DAC/AMP device takes USB in, you're completely bypassing the Xonar card (and it's pointless to have it installed).


  Quote: 





lilbuck said:


> I tried asking this in MLE's thread but got a few answers: With a Xonar DG running to a DAC/AMP combo can I still have surround in video games from dolby headphone? Does it depend on the amp?


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





lilbuck said:


> I tried asking this in MLE's thread but got a few answers: With a Xonar DG running to a DAC/AMP combo can I still have surround in video games from dolby headphone? Does it depend on the amp?


 

 Apparently the drivers don't let you you output the Dolby Headphone processed audio over S/PDIF, only the analog out.  Its all about the sound card and the drivers, not you DAC or amp.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> Apparently the drivers don't let you output the Dolby Headphone processed audio over S/PDIF, only the analog out.  Its all about the sound card and the drivers, not you DAC or amp.


 

 Well put. While I do wish I could confirm/deny this myself, I simply don't have the disposable income to purchase all sorts of sound cards just to test things like this and go through the effort to sell them off afterward.
   
  Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> *snip*


 

  Very thorough post; I really appreciate it. I have to admit, my knowledge on the Audigy line is relatively slim, because I basically skipped from a Live! Value straight to the X-Fi Prelude; this really helps with getting my head around when SRC is a factor and when it isn't. (And I thought both Live! and Audigy 1 cards could run "straight" if all DSP effects were off, while Audigy 2/4 just added a few driver-side features...leave it to Creative to never keep things straightforward.)


----------



## obobskivich

My understanding is that Creative didn't intend the SRC "bug" with the Audigy - if memory serves it was a timing glitch that home-studio enthusiasts noticed working with Audigy 1 era cards, and the complaints were fairly loud. I know Audigy 2 "fixed" the problem, but X-Fi handles it much better (the ring-topology is the "key"). Audigy 2 and ZS are more than drivers; sure you can flash things and make the computer think you have a 2 or ZS, but you don't have the hardware (2 is 6.1, ZS is I2S for example; you can't change that with a flash). 
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Well put. While I do wish I could confirm/deny this myself, I simply don't have the disposable income to purchase all sorts of sound cards just to test things like this and go through the effort to sell them off afterward.
> 
> 
> Very thorough post; I really appreciate it. I have to admit, my knowledge on the Audigy line is relatively slim, because I basically skipped from a Live! Value straight to the X-Fi Prelude; this really helps with getting my head around when SRC is a factor and when it isn't. (And I thought both Live! and Audigy 1 cards could run "straight" if all DSP effects were off, while Audigy 2/4 just added a few driver-side features...leave it to Creative to never keep things straightforward.)


----------



## LilBuck

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> Apparently the drivers don't let you you output the Dolby Headphone processed audio over S/PDIF, only the analog out.  Its all about the sound card and the drivers, not you DAC or amp.


 


  I see, obob said if it was through S/PDIF it would be good to go, so you are saying it depends on the sound card? In the end if I cannot get a definitive answer I will probably just buy the xonar dg to try it since it is so cheap. i haven't bought the whole setup yet (which will probably be a few weeks esp if I go Shiit and have to wait for backorders) but I will report back hopefully with some results if  I do end up doing things that way.
   
  Also when someone says S/PDIF, does that just mean any cable that lists itself S/PDIF?


----------



## obobskivich

S/PDIF is the interface, it can be carried via coax (any old RCA cable) or TOSlink (fibre). 
   
  The "worst case" with the Xonar is that you'll send an analog signal out from it, into your amplifier. Nothing wrong with that. I can't find anything authoritative that says no Dolby Headphone via S/PDIF; I do know there's a lot of mythology about S/PDIF "bypassing" a soundcard and a bunch of other nonsense though. I'm skeptical, but it could be entirely possible (such a feature would be a driver problem or restriction, not anything to do with hardware, especially not with your downstream devices). 
   
  Again, if it doesn't work (in which case, please do report back), you can use the analog output and be just fine.
  
  Quote: 





lilbuck said:


> I see, obob said if it was through S/PDIF it would be good to go, so you are saying it depends on the sound card? In the end if I cannot get a definitive answer I will probably just buy the xonar dg to try it since it is so cheap. i haven't bought the whole setup yet (which will probably be a few weeks esp if I go Shiit and have to wait for backorders) but I will report back hopefully with some results if  I do end up doing things that way.
> 
> Also when someone says S/PDIF, does that just mean any cable that lists itself S/PDIF?


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





lilbuck said:


> I see, obob said if it was through S/PDIF it would be good to go, so you are saying it depends on the sound card? In the end if I cannot get a definitive answer I will probably just buy the xonar dg to try it since it is so cheap. i haven't bought the whole setup yet (which will probably be a few weeks esp if I go Shiit and have to wait for backorders) but I will report back hopefully with some results if  I do end up doing things that way.
> 
> Also when someone says S/PDIF, does that just mean any cable that lists itself S/PDIF?


 

 There's no technical reason why it can't be done but apparently its a licensing thing with Dolby.
   
  S/PDIF is just a format to send audio data.  In theory you could send it over any kind of cable but it usually uses either an optical cable or a coaxial RCA cable.  I don't know what cards have which types but it should have one or the other.


----------



## SniperCzar

Brand new user's massive first post warning -
   
  I've been picking up lots of audio equipment for a year or two now, most of it for free from friends/clients. Needless to say, that didn't give me much choice in components when putting my system together, but I think it turned out very very well. Now I'm looking to finally spend a little cash to better suit my system to my habits, those being FPS gaming, anime BD rips on my 9TB RAID media server, and a lot of music (mostly electronic/orchestral but some rock/alt as well.) My current collection is as follows:

 Creative X-Fi Titanium Pro (picked up on sale for $20)
  JVC RX-6020V receiver (picked up for free from my dad's friend)
  Acoustic Research HC6 5.1 system (free from same person)
  iPod video (free from a computer client, put in a new battery)
  Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 80s (picked up VERY lightly used for $130)
   
  As you can see, I've got over a grand in equipment for so cheap I'd rather not pay more than $200 on additional amp/DACs. Here's the gear I'm currently considering, in order of interest:
  
  FiiO E17
  O2
  Astro mixamp
  ODA/ODAC
   
  I think I've got my virtual surround needs fairly well met by the the X-Fi and the CMSS-Headphone paired with the 770s (opinions on that to follow), though I would definitely consider ditching it and taking the Astro over the FiiO's nice features if Dolby Headphone offers a noticeable improvement over CMSS. I don't do any console gaming at all. I'd really rather not invest in a second pair of headphones, as I find the current Beyers insanely comfortable compared to anything else I've ever tried to fit on my abnormally large head for long periods of time. That's not even mentioning the fact that they're built like a complete tank and survived a year coexisting with 50lbs of school books in my backpack during two seasons of bus travel for rowing regattas. The fact that they're awesome for directional audio and sound excellent are just added bonuses.
   
  I've been playing around with the virtual surround settings and stumbled upon the easy way to counteract the intense muddiness of the bass on the Beyers when in CMSS mode. I've found in BF3 and in anime with 5.1 audio that disabling the sub frequencies entirely via VLC's  Audio>Audio Device>"2 front 2 rear" mode or unchecking the sub in the Windows speaker config utility reduces the overbearing bass for the very low sounds by 1/2 to 2/3 which really makes the Beyers a much more viable option under a PC vs on a console as I suspect MLE was reviewing them. For the more computer savvy users out there, I'm currently trying to find a method for changing audio device/creative console settings/windows speaker config all with one batch script and some .reg files for an easy method to switch all of these software layers over without a 20 click process, and I hope I can get it all functional without losing my mind. I'll probably post up a detailed writeup of all the different windows/creative/application combos and maybe even some recorded samples. What I'd really love from the community though is just a little feedback on a good amp/DAC combo that might improve my virtual surround as well as music.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> Brand new user's massive first post warning -


 

 CMSS vs Dolby Headphone is often an individual issue because neither is customized to a specific person's HRTF and uses a generic one based on some sort of averaging or modeling.  That means one of them could work better for one person and the other could be better for a different person.  You'll really have to hear it for yourself to find out.
   
  Since you're on a budget you'll probably be ok with out a separate DAC.  A separate amp might help though.  If you're just running the Pro 80s from your X-Fi I'd imagine that it has a fairly high output impedance which will make the Pro 80's bass more boomy and overwhelming than it should be.  Something like the O2 or the ODA if you prefer a more "normal" form factor with a low output impedance will show you how the Pro 80's bass is really supposed to sound and may reduce some of that messing around with the settings.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> CMSS vs Dolby Headphone is often an individual issue because neither is customized to a specific person's HRTF and uses a generic one based on some sort of averaging or modeling.  That means one of them could work better for one person and the other could be better for a different person.  You'll really have to hear it for yourself to find out.


 

 Very much true. While I have a preference for CMSS-3D Headphone overall, that's more due to how Dolby Headphone doesn't treat DirectSound3D and OpenAL games as each sound source being its own speaker, so to speak. In a competition between full-blown 3D binaural sound and virtual 7.1 speakers from which sounds can only come through 7 arbitrary positions surrounding the listener, it's no contest.
   
  Were DH to perform just like CMSS-3D does in those titles, it would be much tougher to decide. I already can't decide which is any better or worse in games with software-mixed audio and where both work with just virtual 5.1/7.1 anyway.
   
  Even then, the HRTF factor is enough that some listeners could indeed find DH's virtual 7.1 preferable to CMSS-3D's binaural sound, even in those older games with hardware-accelerated audio. It could even be enough of a factor that some listeners just find both to provide zero positional improvements and only muddy the sound, thus playing in pure stereo.
   
  There's only one thing certain in the world of audio: No size fits all.
   
  Oh, and good clarifications on S/PDIF. I like to think of it this way: imagine sending a message to someone. The language that message is written in is the protocol (which S/PDIF is), while the means to deliver that message is the interface (which RCA/coaxial and Toslink/optical are).


----------



## azncookiecutter

Some anecdotal experiences with SPDIF: I actually have success outputting Dolby Headphone over SPDIF to an external DAC using the Asus Xonar D1, with the unified drivers, but was not able to with any of the X-Fi based cards I tried (Titanium and X-Fi Forte).


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





azncookiecutter said:


> Some anecdotal experiences with SPDIF: I actually have success outputting Dolby Headphone over SPDIF to an external DAC using the Asus Xonar D1, with the unified drivers, but was not able to with any of the X-Fi based cards I tried (Titanium and X-Fi Forte).


 

 I've never had any problem outputting CMSS audio over optical.  
   
  Something that I'd like to mention: The Turtle Beach DSS has a perceptible lag.  I dunno it the DSS is just slow or if it's inherent to Dolby Headphone.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





phos said:


> I've never had any problem outputting CMSS audio over optical.
> 
> Something that I'd like to mention: The Turtle Beach DSS has a perceptible lag.  I dunno it the DSS is just slow or if it's inherent to Dolby Headphone.


 

 All that stuff comes down to the implementation so the important thing is what works with specific models and possibly specific drivers.
   
  There's also no reason why DH has to have a noticeable delay.  It will always take _some _time to process but whether a person will ever notice depends on what's doing the processing.  I wonder if all those external DH processors run some purpose built DH chip or if they do it in software with some kind of general purpose processor.  Anyone know if the Mixamp does that too?


----------



## chicolom

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> All that stuff comes down to the implementation so the important thing is what works with specific models and possibly specific drivers.
> 
> There's also no reason why DH has to have a noticeable delay.  It will always take _some _time to process but whether a person will ever notice depends on what's doing the processing.  I wonder if all those external DH processors run some purpose built DH chip or if they do it in software with some kind of general purpose processor.  Anyone know if the Mixamp does that too?


 

 The mixamp has very slight delay.  I didn't test it against my DSS when I had the two, so I don't know if they're different.
   
  I thought they used a dolby chip.  In this pic you can see the larger chip on the mixamp looks to have a the "Dolby Digital" logo on it.


----------



## NamelessPFG

They say the JVC/Victor SU-DH1 also has a very slight delay, but it's one that even I don't notice, at least playing FPSs and so forth. It could be a hindrance on rhythm games where you pretty much have to hit a button right on the beat, though.
   
  My guess is that the Dolby Digital-to-Dolby Headphone processing takes a bit of time, never instantaneous, and the processors used in these little DAC/DSP devices are considered "good enough", so they'd rather not have a faster one sucking down more power and whatnot. (For that matter, the Mixamp and DSS both use a cut-down processor compared to what's featured in the SU-DH1; more power-efficient, but lacking DH1 and DH3 modes, possibly DTS decoding too, though that could just be licensing.)


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





chicolom said:


> The mixamp has very slight delay.  I didn't test it against my DSS when I had the two, so I don't know if they're different.
> 
> I thought they used a dolby chip.  In this pic you can see the larger chip on the mixamp looks to have a the "Dolby Digital" logo on it.


 

 Interesting.  From the looks of it that Dolby chip is doing all the DSP stuff.  Its still not a completely integrated solution though there could be variations in delay across different models.
   
  I see a Cypress USB interface chip and 2 AKM DAC chips besides a slew of op amps so it looks like the manufacturer still has plenty of work to do in order to come up with a good product.


----------



## 443330

Awesome write up Nameless, no doubt I was one of the people you had to repeat yourself too. 
  Not sure if I talked to you about this other day, but I was really disappointed with my purchase of AD700's. 
  I was disappointed because I sold my G35's expecting the AD700's to be much more accurate in COD4. I was wrong, no matter what settings I used in windows and in COD4, the AD700 did not come near the G35's.
  Now I found this really odd, because with my G35's I didn't install any drivers and the accuracy in COD4 was pretty amazing. So I had myself asking does the G35's on board processor still work if I had not installed the drivers? 
  And what exactly does the surround sound option do? Because when I did install the drivers the sound was much more clear/accurate with the surround sound button off.
   
  So I purchased a second hand Asus Xonar D1 to try with my AD700's and tried all sorts of combinations. All of them except one so far has yielded poor results.
   
  The combination of settings I am on currently is:
  Windows XP audio settings set to 5.1 Surround sound speakers
  COD4: Audio setting set to 5.1 Speakers
  Xonar D1 Audio Center settings set to: 5.1 Speakers 
   
  Now I am still wondering if there is any better settings as the sound is roughly the same as my G35's without a dedicated sound card and without drivers installed!
   
  Should I be using Dolby Pro Logic IIx?
  Should I be using 7.1 Virtual Speaker Shifter?
  Should I be using the GX button? and what exactly does it do?
  Should I tweak some settings in the equalizer? 
   
  Sorry for the ton of questions, some of which may seem obvious to you. I have tried researching but the sheer amount of differing information out there is insane.


----------



## SniperCzar

Correct me if I'm missing something here, but what's to stop me from diverting the software layer processing of CMSS to any external DAC I like by going to recording devices>"What U Hear">Properties>Listen>Listen to this device>Select my DAC from the drop down? From what I understand, that recording device is just the software processed output before it's fed to the X-Fi. They wouldn't make it go out to the X-Fi and then back in through the same card again, would they? Entirely native solution in Windows 7 and Creative drivers, bypasses all the circuitry on the soundcard and pipes it to any high quality exterior DAC I like complete with the CMSS surround I liked on the X-Fi? I mean, isn't that the perfect solution right there?


----------



## googleli

I have been playing Skyrim on my GTX580 SLI based PC, and found that there is an annoying sound coming from my speakers while playing. This does not happen with other games. I use a Pioneer SC-LX 85 Flagship Receiver to connect one of my GTX580s which outputs to a 7-channel power amplifier then my speakers. Any solution for this? I really like Skyrim, and with my computer setup, I really don't want to play it on 360 or PS3, although I own both.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> Correct me if I'm missing something here, but what's to stop me from diverting the software layer processing of CMSS to any external DAC I like by going to recording devices>"What U Hear">Properties>Listen>Listen to this device>Select my DAC from the drop down? From what I understand, that recording device is just the software processed output before it's fed to the X-Fi. They wouldn't make it go out to the X-Fi and then back in through the same card again, would they? Entirely native solution in Windows 7 and Creative drivers, bypasses all the circuitry on the soundcard and pipes it to any high quality exterior DAC I like complete with the CMSS surround I liked on the X-Fi? I mean, isn't that the perfect solution right there?


 

 Nothing really.  Apparently that works with the Creative cards.


----------



## SniperCzar

I'm surprised I haven't seen anybody mention that before! Did some basic testing to confirm (unfortunately the only USB soundcard I had on hand was some little $15 toy) and it does indeed seem to be passing through the CMSS surround processing. That pretty much seals the deal on the E17 for me over the feature-light O2/ODA or unnecessary Astro. From what I've heard the ODA isn't going to be that much better than the E17 that I should buy both, one desktop and one laptop/iPod.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> I'm surprised I haven't seen anybody mention that before! Did some basic testing to confirm (unfortunately the only USB soundcard I had on hand was some little $15 toy) and it does indeed seem to be passing through the CMSS surround processing. That pretty much seals the deal on the E17 for me over the feature-light O2/ODA or unnecessary Astro. From what I've heard the ODA isn't going to be that much better than the E17 that I should buy both, one desktop and one laptop/iPod.


 

 If you want more than a USB input then the ODAC won't be for you.  The E17 could work pretty well if you don't need a ton of power


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> Correct me if I'm missing something here, but what's to stop me from diverting the software layer processing of CMSS to any external DAC I like by going to recording devices>"What U Hear">Properties>Listen>Listen to this device>Select my DAC from the drop down? From what I understand, that recording device is just the software processed output before it's fed to the X-Fi. They wouldn't make it go out to the X-Fi and then back in through the same card again, would they? Entirely native solution in Windows 7 and Creative drivers, bypasses all the circuitry on the soundcard and pipes it to any high quality exterior DAC I like complete with the CMSS surround I liked on the X-Fi? I mean, isn't that the perfect solution right there?


 
   
  Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> I'm surprised I haven't seen anybody mention that before! Did some basic testing to confirm (unfortunately the only USB soundcard I had on hand was some little $15 toy) and it does indeed seem to be passing through the CMSS surround processing. That pretty much seals the deal on the E17 for me over the feature-light O2/ODA or unnecessary Astro. From what I've heard the ODA isn't going to be that much better than the E17 that I should buy both, one desktop and one laptop/iPod.


 
   

  I can't believe I didn't think of that before! It's a nifty little hidden feature in Windows 7. Doesn't help pre-Win7 users much, though...but a lot of people, myself included, have standardized on Win7 now.
   
  I'll do some testing with an old SB0490 I have lying around later on to see if this works. If it does, USB audio interfaces may be a very viable option now when paired with a sound card for DSP effects.
   
  Quote: 





443330 said:


> Awesome write up Nameless, no doubt I was one of the people you had to repeat yourself too.
> Not sure if I talked to you about this other day, but I was really disappointed with my purchase of AD700's.
> I was disappointed because I sold my G35's expecting the AD700's to be much more accurate in COD4. I was wrong, no matter what settings I used in windows and in COD4, the AD700 did not come near the G35's.
> Now I found this really odd, because with my G35's I didn't install any drivers and the accuracy in COD4 was pretty amazing. So I had myself asking does the G35's on board processor still work if I had not installed the drivers?
> ...


 

 The guide was written with CMSS-3D Headphone and/or Dolby Headphone use in mind. In the event that you don't like Dolby Headphone at all, you might as well set everything to stereo headphones.
   
  The 7.1 virtual speaker shifter may help with positioning, but Pro Logic IIx is completely unnecessary for our uses (it matrixes surround information into an analog stereo signal to be decoded by an A/V receiver or something like the Astro Mixamp). The GX button handles EAX emulation in games, which shouldn't be necessary since you're still running Windows XP and DirectSound3D is still supported, but perhaps it's also tied to how it emulates EAX versions 3/4/5 as well (which are only natively available on Creative hardware, certain software driver packages excluded).
   
  However, it's at least worth finding out if the G35 with surround sound on and Dolby Headphone out of the Xonar D1 sound anything alike. Maybe you'll like it better, or it'll just reinforce what you already knew. Only one way to find out...


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I can't believe I didn't think of that before! It's a nifty little hidden feature in Windows 7. Doesn't help pre-Win7 users much, though...but a lot of people, myself included, have standardized on Win7 now.
> 
> I'll do some testing with an old SB0490 I have lying around later on to see if this works. If it does, USB audio interfaces may be a very viable option now when paired with a sound card for DSP effects.


 

 I guess it just takes a brand new guy to show up, see seasoned veterans struggling, and think outside the box, huh? 
   
  Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> If you want more than a USB input then the ODAC won't be for you.  The E17 could work pretty well if you don't need a ton of power


 
   
  I'm thinking I might want to wait until NwAvGuy gets an E17 for review, that way I can compare his numbers to his other numbers on the ODA prototype. It's still possible I might pass on the E17 for portable use for now if the ODA is >20% better than the E17. Or I could always get an E17+E9 just to have a physical volume knob to turn when I game, though I hear FiiO might be working on an E9 replacement to follow up their E7 replacement...


----------



## BababooeyHTJ

Creative has such great service. I've been having a problem with enabling 5.1 in  Windows. This is the most recent respose that I got from Creative's outsourced support. Just because of this I'm looking for a Xonar DX at a decent price. 
   


> Dear Sir/Madam,
> 
> With regards to your enquiry,
> 
> ...


----------



## maverickronin

Does anyone her know if the Asus cards with digital inputs can decode Dolby or DTS multi channel streams from them or are they only good for regular PCM?


----------



## cladisch

> Does anyone her know if the Asus cards with digital inputs can decode Dolby or DTS multi channel streams from them?


 

 They cannot.
  I'm not aware of any other card that could do this either. Probably this is forbidden by the Dolby/DTS licenses.


----------



## our martin

i am building an high end gaming pc from cyber power it's the black mamba 3 with i7 and twin gtx 590 graphics cards and i want to get the best possible soundcard i can get any suggestions or should i just stick with what comes with the pc? p.s this will be mainly used for battlefield 3 it will be for late night gaming i will be using grado ps500 headphones and yeti 24bit mic instead of a 7.1 surround sound headset i might have to use a dss2 to make the grado ps500 headphones 7.1 that's only if i have to..through the daytime i will be using a pioneer susano 7.1 av receiver with pioneer s81 7.1 surround sound speakers and using a samsung es8000 75inch tv instead of the three screen set up..and for listening to music i will be using a audio lab m-dac..


----------



## googleli

Try this ultimate headphone gaming setup which I use out of my GTX580 SLi system:
   
  Display card HDMI -> High End AV Receiver (Pioneer SC LX85 in my case) -> Smyth Realizer -> Esoteric K-01 (using only the DAC portion) -> SRM727II (to be replaced by BHSE soon) -> Stax SR009  
   
  Quote: 





our martin said:


> i am building an high end gaming pc from cyber power it's the black mamba 3 with i7 and twin gtx 590 graphics cards and i want to get this best possible soundcard i can get any suggestions or should i just stick with what comes with the pc? p.s this will be mainly used for battlefield 3 it will be for late night gaming i will be using grado ps500 headphones and yeti 24bit mic instead a headset i might have to use a dss2 to make the headphones 7.1 that's only if i have to..


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





cladisch said:


> They cannot.
> I'm not aware of any other card that could do this either. Probably this is forbidden by the Dolby/DTS licenses.


 

 That sucks.  Its also silly.  Receivers can decode it just fine and it doesn't seem to bother anyone.
   
  Thanks for the answer though.  I guess I won't have any use for a card with a digital input then.  I suppose I'll just have to buy a Mixamp instead if I ever get back in to console gaming.  It would have been more convenient to run everything through the soundcard.


----------



## obobskivich

They can't decode from input to analog, but they can pass it back out via digital out (at least most should; all of my Sound Blasters can do this). In other words if you have something like a DVD player feeding into the PC (or another computer), and then want to feed out from the PC to something else, that can work. Receivers are a different beast and have different licencing stipulations (and they aren't generally decoding the signal into something that can record/process it). 
   
  I think I get roughly what you're after; I had a similar setup a while ago. One computer fed into another, and that fed into an external DSP. The external DSP is what made everything work smoothly though (because it could take DTS/Dolby Digital and do something with that). The "top" PC was putting out either PCM or AC-3 (and taking in digital and analog signals), the "bottom" PC took that and mixed it with its internally generated "stuff" (and other analog signals) and put AC-3 out into the DSP. It got to be a pain to control everything though; the next logical step was a studio controller (PreSonus makes a great one).
   
  Regarding the limitations of S/PDIF, this isn't the first thread I've seen with people claiming that  their X-Fi doesn't output anything via S/PDIF but "raw" - I'm not disputing that, but I'm somewhat curious about it. None of my Sound Blaster cards seem to care what output they're using, digital and analog are "equal." What cards and OS are we talking about here? (I'm trying to learn more about this). 
  
  Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> That sucks.  Its also silly.  Receivers can decode it just fine and it doesn't seem to bother anyone.
> 
> Thanks for the answer though.  I guess I won't have any use for a card with a digital input then.  I suppose I'll just have to buy a Mixamp instead if I ever get back in to console gaming.  It would have been more convenient to run everything through the soundcard.


----------



## SniperCzar

I rewrote the steps into an actual guide. Crosspost from the MLE thread:
   
  Here's how to do the handoff of CMSS processed output *completely in software*:

Before following this checklist, make sure your current audio device is fully configured for CMSS (Windows configure speakers wizard is done and set to a surround setup, Creative Console speakers set to headphones, CMSS-3D is enabled, Crystalizer is disabled, "Disable Sound Blaster enhancements" under the Sound Blaster tab of your default audio device's properties is unchecked). I like unchecking the sub in the Windows wizard here to create a virtual 5.0 rather than a virtual 5.1 because I think it may help tame the overbearing bass some of you were talking about on the 770 80 ohms. The Beyers are already mashing together the bass output from the other 5 virtual channels into a pair of very bass-capable headphones, do you really need a virtual sub as well? Also, as we all know, subwoofer bass position is something your brain can't pinpoint, so I don't see why you'd want lots of it in your pinpoint accurate virtual surround. I think I remember hearing a noticeable difference with this changed in my limited A-B testing with a ripped BD of Evangellion 1.11 (the last battle scene has explosions and technobabbling jumping ALL over every channel when I listen with my physical 5.1 Acoustic Research HC6, so far it's by far the best test of virtual surround I've tried yet), but I wish I had another pair of Beyers to do a real A-B and not rely on my terrible memory/imagination.
   
  1. Right click on your volume tray in Windows 7 and select "Recording devices"
  2. Select "What U Hear" and click "Properties" (cringe inducing grammar there Creative)
  [Note - you do NOT have to set this as the default recording device]
  3. Select the "Listen" tab and check the box marked "Listen to this device"
  4. Under the drop down marked "Playback through this device:" select your desired DAC
  5. Make sure "Continue running when on battery power" is selected as a software passthrough should have no effect whatsoever on your battery life
  6. Select the "Levels" tab and set it to something comfortable, as the volume control for the Creative card's standard output will have no effect on the volume of the software recording device.
  7. Enjoy listening to CMSS freed from the noisy and inferior hardware confines of your internal soundcard!
   
  In other news, I've been trying to figure out whether I can use the Windows 5.1 balance setting to adjust the virtual surround. It doesn't work in the Creative headphone test, but I think that might just be a recording. If I can use that balance menu to adjust the volume of the virtual surround mix and turn up the rear speakers, that would be really nice. Don't know if that would work in combination with the Creative handoff to another DAC though, even if it did indeed work on the CMSS virtual surround in the first place.


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> They can't decode from input to analog, but they can pass it back out via digital out (at least most should; all of my Sound Blasters can do this). In other words if you have something like a DVD player feeding into the PC (or another computer), and then want to feed out from the PC to something else, that can work. Receivers are a different beast and have different licencing stipulations (and they aren't generally decoding the signal into something that can record/process it).
> 
> I think I get roughly what you're after; I had a similar setup a while ago. One computer fed into another, and that fed into an external DSP. The external DSP is what made everything work smoothly though (because it could take DTS/Dolby Digital and do something with that). The "top" PC was putting out either PCM or AC-3 (and taking in digital and analog signals), the "bottom" PC took that and mixed it with its internally generated "stuff" (and other analog signals) and put AC-3 out into the DSP. It got to be a pain to control everything though; the next logical step was a studio controller (PreSonus makes a great one).
> 
> Regarding the limitations of S/PDIF, this isn't the first thread I've seen with people claiming that  their X-Fi doesn't output anything via S/PDIF but "raw" - I'm not disputing that, but I'm somewhat curious about it. None of my Sound Blaster cards seem to care what output they're using, digital and analog are "equal." What cards and OS are we talking about here? (I'm trying to learn more about this).


 

 First gen PCI X-Fi cards don't have the encoder.  They can output premade Dolby or DTS 5.1 signals but they can't make it.


----------



## LilBuck

I posted in MLE's thread also, so excuse the duplication, but some people I see who know a lot have responded to questions here too.
   
  I just bought Beyerdynamic DT 880 600 ohm phones, and want to figure out what I should do with regards to DAC/AMPs vs a sound card. The source for everything will be Win7 64 bit pc.
   
  I currently mostly use the headphones for video games and will continue to do so with the new headphones, but I plan on listening to music a lot more with my new setup.
   
  My question is how much of an improvement an external amp/dac provide over one of the nicer sound cards (seems like Asus Essence STX and HT Omega Claro are the best). Would those sufficiently power 600 ohm headphones? The literature they produce says they will, but I would rather hear it from a knowledeable head-fier than the people who are trying to sell me the cards.
   
  Even with a sound card that says it can drive the Beyer's I feel like I would prefer to just buy an amp for them. If I just bought one of those cards + an amp (say Shiit Asgard or Matrix M Stage) that should provide really good quality gaming sound, and still decent quality sound for music, right? I haven't really figured out if I should just get a DAC and AMP or if AMP + sound card is a better option for me. Thanks for any help


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> They can't decode from input to analog, but they can pass it back out via digital out (at least most should; all of my Sound Blasters can do this). In other words if you have something like a DVD player feeding into the PC (or another computer), and then want to feed out from the PC to something else, that can work. Receivers are a different beast and have different licencing stipulations (and they aren't generally decoding the signal into something that can record/process it).
> 
> I think I get roughly what you're after; I had a similar setup a while ago. One computer fed into another, and that fed into an external DSP. The external DSP is what made everything work smoothly though (because it could take DTS/Dolby Digital and do something with that). The "top" PC was putting out either PCM or AC-3 (and taking in digital and analog signals), the "bottom" PC took that and mixed it with its internally generated "stuff" (and other analog signals) and put AC-3 out into the DSP. It got to be a pain to control everything though; the next logical step was a studio controller (PreSonus makes a great one).


 


 I was assuming that a card with the on the fly encoders for multichannel Dolby or DTS would be also able to read those formats.  Is that true?  Likely?  Possible?
   
  Basically I want to use the PC like the Mixamp.  Digital multichannel in > extra DSP mixing options a stand alone unit won't have > Dolby Headphone > and then either 2ch PCM or analog out.
   
  Latency shouldn't be too important because I wouldn't be playing any FPS on a console.  Probably just RPGs that don't get a PC release.  I don't need positioning for that but I can't stand to listen to normal stereo on headphones.  I always use at least an analog crossfeed circuit when listening to music.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> I guess it just takes a brand new guy to show up, see seasoned veterans struggling, and think outside the box, huh?


 

 You could say that.
   
  I actually have known that the feature is there in Win7 for years, but thought of it as more of a Stereo Mix equivalent. I didn't think of using it with an actual Stereo Mix/"What U Hear" recording source to play it over other sources.
   
  I just tested it, and it actually does work, though the Windows speaker test for the source X-Fi card, played over the SB0490 (Live! 24-bit External), did have a bit of distortion to some sounds. Both playback and "What U Hear" on the X-Fi are set to 2-channel, 24-bit/48 KHz, so that's not it. I'm guessing it's because the SB0490 is a USB 1.1 device and could use USB 2.0 bandwidth to work right...too bad I don't have any other USB audio interfaces to test with.
   
  I've now amended the guide to add this little trick, crediting you, of course.
   
  Quote: 





googleli said:


> Try this ultimate headphone gaming setup which I use out of my GTX580 SLi system:
> 
> Display card HDMI -> High End AV Receiver (Pioneer SC LX85 in my case) -> Smyth Realizer -> Esoteric K-01 (using only the DAC portion) -> SRM727II (to be replaced by BHSE soon) -> Stax SR009


 

 You have no idea how much I envy your wallet right now. I can't afford a single GTX 580 (let alone two of them), a Smyth Realiser, an SR-009, or a BHSE, let alone all of that combined...then there's a trip to a studio to get a recording with the Realiser to take into account.
   
  At least I'm pretty satisfied with my X-Fi Titanium HD and Stax Lambda systems for now.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





lilbuck said:


> My question is how much of an improvement an external amp/dac provide over one of the nicer sound cards (seems like Asus Essence STX and HT Omega Claro are the best). Would those sufficiently power 600 ohm headphones? The literature they produce says they will, but I would rather hear it from a knowledeable head-fier than the people who are trying to sell me the cards.


 

 With those headphones and one of those cards you won't need a separate amp or DAC.  The hardware in the STX and the Claro Halo are pretty similar.  Both of them have the same amp chip in them and it pairs perfectly with high impedance Beyers like you just got.  It puts out a lot of power into high impedance 'phones but for some technical reasons it often won't perform as well with lower impedance 'phones.
   
  They both have great specs in the DAC and headphone sections.  The STX was measured in a review and shown to perform quite well.  I don't think that the Claro Halo hasn't been checked out like that it its probably pretty close.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I just tested it, and it actually does work, though the Windows speaker test for the source X-Fi card, played over the SB0490 (Live! 24-bit External), did have a bit of distortion to some sounds. Both playback and "What U Hear" on the X-Fi are set to 2-channel, 24-bit/48 KHz, so that's not it. I'm guessing it's because the SB0490 is a USB 1.1 device and could use USB 2.0 bandwidth to work right...too bad I don't have any other USB audio interfaces to test with.
> 
> I've now amended the guide to add this little trick, crediting you, of course.


 
   
  I didn't hear any distortion, though the only thing I had on hand for testing the output was a $15 USB dongle so it might just be hiding in the terrible SQ.
  
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I've now amended the guide to add this little trick, crediting you, of course.


 
   
  Thanks! I plan to do some more extensive testing with it when I get a little more free time.


----------



## LilBuck

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> With those headphones and one of those cards you won't need a separate amp or DAC.  The hardware in the STX and the Claro Halo are pretty similar.  Both of them have the same amp chip in them and it pairs perfectly with high impedance Beyers like you just got.  It puts out a lot of power into high impedance 'phones but for some technical reasons it often won't perform as well with lower impedance 'phones.
> 
> They both have great specs in the DAC and headphone sections.  The STX was measured in a review and shown to perform quite well.  I don't think that the Claro Halo hasn't been checked out like that it its probably pretty close.


 


 Wow a $200 sound card can act as a decent DAC/AMP for headphones up to 600 ohms? That seems like a pretty good deal if it works out that well.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





lilbuck said:


> Wow a $200 sound card can act as a decent DAC/AMP for headphones up to 600 ohms? That seems like a pretty good deal if it works out that well.


 

 All else equal, the higher the impedance the easier it is for and amp to make it sound _good _but the harder it is for the amp to make it _loud _and the opposite is true for lower impedances.
   
  That chip has plenty of voltage too so volume won't be a problem with a 600 ohm load but it won't do as well into lower impedances.


----------



## obobskivich

LilBuck,
   
  With a 600 ohm load I would not use a conventional sound card; the head-amp soundcards may be capable or they may not be - depends on what they're using to drive the load (the fan favorite TI chip can do something like 80mW into 600 ohms; that's a hell of a lot of power). If you have a quality sound card, an outboard DAC seems redundant to me. Personally I'm a fan of high-end internal soundcards (I don't have any "head-amp" models though), and using something else to drive the headphones (amp, hi-fi receiver, good thoughts, whatever works). High-end does not have to mean insanely expensive; $200 is absolutely top-end in my book unless you need studio features (in which case you'll be spending more). You can get very good performance from something for less than $200 as well. As far as "the best" - ignoring the head-amp advantages, I'm going to say it's more or less six of one and half a dozen of the other. The TOTL offerings from Asus, HT Omega, and Auzen all use the same DSP and are going to be very similar; the TOTL from Creative is going to be feature-competitive but use a different DSP. If you want to spend more, you certainly can, but if the goal is to use the sound card (or outboard DAC, or even amp) as a means to change the sound of your headphones, I'd rethink that. If that's the case, get an EQ or get another pair of headphones.
   

 All Sound Blaster cards since the Audigy 1 can have the Creative DDL encoder added via upgrade pack (and all X-Fi cards support the DTS Connect pack); it costs a few dollars for the licence (and I believe DTS requires Vista or 7). This is unrelated to decoding an AC-3 or DTS signal into analog. 
  Quote: 





phos said:


> First gen PCI X-Fi cards don't have the encoder.  They can output premade Dolby or DTS 5.1 signals but they can't make it.


 


  It can decode them, feesably, but it's a licence issue. It can pass-through the data though (and I believe it can apply volume leveling, it's been a while since I took it apart; I didn't really worry about this because I didn't use either PC to control the volume in that scheme). So what you'd get is Dolby/DTS into the S/PDIF port, and the same signal right back out the digital audio port. You could have the card add more into the digital audio output, but any mix-down/processing will be done in an outboard decoder. I do not believe any of the Sound Blaster cards are able to take a 5.1 DTS/AC-3 signal in via S/PDIF and downmix that to a stereo output using CMSS-3D Headphone (or whatever else). You can get an AV receiver that will take 5.1 Dolby/DTS and give you an HRTF (Dolby Headphone or Yamaha Silent Cinema) output though; might or might not be cost effective. Don't a lot of the newer games on consoles have a "headphone" mode, similar to what exists on PC? (The newest game console I own is a PlayStation). I think something like the JVC Dolby box or a Mixamp is probably the "easiest" solution, as it pulls the computer out of the loop. Dolby Headphone is fairly universal in implementation - the only thing you'd stand to gain with a PC would be CMSS-3D Headphone (and I swear that Creative used to make an outboard that could be bastardized into doing this, I forget what it was called though). 
   
  One thing you could do, and I know for certain this would work, is output a stereo analog signal (or PCM) from the console, and feed that into CMSS-3D. It won't give you the exact same effect, but it would let you route things through the PC. 


  Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> I was assuming that a card with the on the fly encoders for multichannel Dolby or DTS would be also able to read those formats.  Is that true?  Likely?  Possible?
> 
> Basically I want to use the PC like the Mixamp.  Digital multichannel in > extra DSP mixing options a stand alone unit won't have > Dolby Headphone > and then either 2ch PCM or analog out.
> 
> Latency shouldn't be too important because I wouldn't be playing any FPS on a console.  Probably just RPGs that don't get a PC release.  I don't need positioning for that but I can't stand to listen to normal stereo on headphones.  I always use at least an analog crossfeed circuit when listening to music.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> It can decode them, feesably, but it's a licence issue. It can pass-through the data though (and I believe it can apply volume leveling, it's been a while since I took it apart; I didn't really worry about this because I didn't use either PC to control the volume in that scheme). So what you'd get is Dolby/DTS into the S/PDIF port, and the same signal right back out the digital audio port. You could have the card add more into the digital audio output, but any mix-down/processing will be done in an outboard decoder. I do not believe any of the Sound Blaster cards are able to take a 5.1 DTS/AC-3 signal in via S/PDIF and downmix that to a stereo output using CMSS-3D Headphone (or whatever else). You can get an AV receiver that will take 5.1 Dolby/DTS and give you an HRTF (Dolby Headphone or Yamaha Silent Cinema) output though; might or might not be cost effective. Don't a lot of the newer games on consoles have a "headphone" mode, similar to what exists on PC? (The newest game console I own is a PlayStation). I think something like the JVC Dolby box or a Mixamp is probably the "easiest" solution, as it pulls the computer out of the loop. Dolby Headphone is fairly universal in implementation - the only thing you'd stand to gain with a PC would be CMSS-3D Headphone (and I swear that Creative used to make an outboard that could be bastardized into doing this, I forget what it was called though).
> 
> One thing you could do, and I know for certain this would work, is output a stereo analog signal (or PCM) from the console, and feed that into CMSS-3D. It won't give you the exact same effect, but it would let you route things through the PC.


 

 Thanks. I suppose I'll have to look into it more.  I don't have any of the latest generation consoles right now either but I'm thinking I should get back to it.
   
  Also about LilBuck's question, the STX and the Claro Halo have the same output chip that the Fiio E9 does and can put out about 20V p-p which is plenty for the 600 ohm Beyers.


----------



## Phos

Actually I meant that you could play a DVD and get surround out of the X-Fi's jack.  IIRC, The first gen X-Fi's didn't have DDL.  I seem to recall hearing this from several places.  The PCI-E cards have it out of the box.  
   
  I can't help but wonder if there's a true line out somewhere in that breakout box connector on those PCI cards.  You know, the ones that took up half the backplate and were only useful to people who got the elite pro.


----------



## obobskivich

Yes, I was thinking they had that TI chip (it's also found in the CI Audio VHP1 and 2 (at substantially higher cost), and the X-Fi Forte if memory serves). I would see what kinds of options are available for audio with the consoles, perhaps asking someone who has spent time with them (I know the PlayStation 3, for example, is supposed to have tons of audio options and abilities (on-par with many top-tier Blu-ray and SACD players), and it will play more or less any disc you can fit into it - I have no idea about real-life though, as I've only ever seen them in display cases (I'm not a big console person)). 
  
  Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> Thanks. I suppose I'll have to look into it more.  I don't have any of the latest generation consoles right now either but I'm thinking I should get back to it.
> 
> Also about LilBuck's question, the STX and the Claro Halo have the same output chip that the Fiio E9 does and can put out about 20V p-p which is plenty for the 600 ohm Beyers.


 


  This is different. The X-Fi and Audigy boards (and most anything else that does 5.1 out) will send out a decoded Dolby/DTS stream in analog (the signal is being decoded by the software player); they will also pass-through the AC-3/DTS signals from their digital inputs (SB Live! can do this) as well as a raw pass-through from a DVD. Again, Sound Blaster cards from the Audigy forward can be made to have DDL - you do have to pay $3 or $4 for the licence on older boards:
  http://us.store.creative.com/Dolby-Digital-Live-Pack-SB-Audigy/M/B006GK76ZK.htm
  http://us.store.creative.com/Dolby-Digital-Live-and-DTS-Connect/M/B006GK76QE.htm
   
  I have no idea what the "out of stock" message is to mean; but the feature does exist. There's no technical limitation. I'm wondering if, however, the licence has expired (hence the OOS message). I know Auzen has stated that DTS is only available for Windows Vista and 7 due to cost issues (Windows XP had or has too large of a userbase to make a DTS:Connect licence affordable). 
   
  S/PDIF pass-through is different than taking a Dolby/DTS signal IN via S/PDIF and processing/decoding that signal into something else. I'm unaware of any board that does that (the Auzen X-Fi Theater might actually do this via HDMI, but I think those are fairly rare; never heard much about them, and I recall them lacking an EMU20kx). 
   
  I don't know what you mean by a "true line out" - the X-Fi Elite Pro is a separate PCB than the other X-Fi boards, and relies on that serial-connected affair for a lot of other features. Based on the AD_EXT and AUD_EXT interfaces used internally, it's likely going to be nothing but UART/MIDI and I2S links running down that cable (there's ADCs and DACs in the breakout modules). There's probably a serial data channel for the remote too. It's very proprietary, and "hacking" the devices is fairly limited apart from getting a raw I2S signal (which can be awesome if you know what you're doing with it and have a specific reason for wanting it). 
   
  You can read about that interface here:
  http://pinouts.ru/Multimedia/sb_audigy2_ad_ext_pinout.shtml
  http://www.hardwareheaven.com/audio-general-technical-discussion/51279-creative-audigy-2-ad_ext-pin-assignment.html
   
  I do remember that Creative used to offer the Audigy "Live Drive" box as a separate upgrade for the Audigy and Audigy 2, I haven't even seen the thing bundled with hardware in a few years though, but you may be able to find one used. They're nifty little boxes, and it's a shame that the X-Fi moved away from the rich multimedia hertiage of the Audigy series. The new break-out box for the Fatala1ty cards is separate (the one that has the dial in the center); it uses some other connection and deviates from the "Live Drive" scheme (it also offers essentially no features). 
   
  I've never seen a pin-out for the Elite Pro's breakout cable (or the Audigy 2/4 Pro; I assume they're very similar), having said all of that. But again, I assume it's just I2S and UART, based on the other Creative expansion boxes.


  Quote: 





phos said:


> Actually I meant that you could play a DVD and get surround out of the X-Fi's jack.  IIRC, The first gen X-Fi's didn't have DDL.  I seem to recall hearing this from several places.  The PCI-E cards have it out of the box.
> 
> I can't help but wonder if there's a true line out somewhere in that breakout box connector on those PCI cards.  You know, the ones that took up half the backplate and were only useful to people who got the elite pro.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> S/PDIF pass-through is different than taking a Dolby/DTS signal IN via S/PDIF and processing/decoding that signal into something else. I'm unaware of any board that does that (the Auzen X-Fi Theater might actually do this via HDMI, but I think those are fairly rare; never heard much about them, and I recall them lacking an EMU20kx).


 

  I know exactly what you mean, and on this matter, the first generation of PCI X-Fi cards (XtremeMusic, Platinum, Fatal1ty FPS, Elite Pro) had a "Decoder" tab for Dolby Digital and DTS that did exactly what you'd expect. Unfortunately, you can't simply purchase the Decoder features for other cards, nor do modified drivers unlock them...perhaps for that alone, I'll have to hunt down such an X-Fi card one of those days.
   
  Also, the Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD does have an EMU20k2. It's quite clearly visible, and in the same spot it would be on the X-Fi Forte.
   
  The only Auzentech-made "X-Fi" card that lacks the proper DSP is the X-Fi Bravura.


----------



## obobskivich

Very interesting. On both counts. Thanks for clarifying on the HomeTheater HD. Indeed, the control panel for the older X-Fi boards does not match my Prelude:
  http://www.ixbt.com/multimedia/creative/x-fi/ent-mode.jpg
   
  What a shame.

  
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I know exactly what you mean, and on this matter, the first generation of PCI X-Fi cards (XtremeMusic, Platinum, Fatal1ty FPS, Elite Pro) had a "Decoder" tab for Dolby Digital and DTS that did exactly what you'd expect. Unfortunately, you can't simply purchase the Decoder features for other cards, nor do modified drivers unlock them...perhaps for that alone, I'll have to hunt down such an X-Fi card one of those days.
> 
> Also, the Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD does have an EMU20k2. It's quite clearly visible, and in the same spot it would be on the X-Fi Forte.


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I know exactly what you mean, and on this matter, the first generation of PCI X-Fi cards (XtremeMusic, Platinum, Fatal1ty FPS, Elite Pro) had a "Decoder" tab for Dolby Digital and DTS that did exactly what you'd expect. Unfortunately, you can't simply purchase the Decoder features for other cards, nor do modified drivers unlock them...perhaps for that alone, I'll have to hunt down such an X-Fi card one of those days.
> 
> Also, the Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD does have an EMU20k2. It's quite clearly visible, and in the same spot it would be on the X-Fi Forte.


 

 I have an extreme music, sorry, I mean "XtremeMusic", and I didn't realize it had anything going for it over the later ones.  I got the Titanium because I wanted an X-Fi with PCI-E.


----------



## SniperCzar

Nameless, the cheapest Creative card on Newegg is PCI and looks like it does CMSS, I suspect it also does "What U Hear" and it's only ~$25. Might be worth a look if you're looking for a replacement card. It's a shame you have to use up space in your case to get it, but getting software CMSS into your audio chain for $25 isn't too shabby...


----------



## obobskivich

Okay, it bugs me now. It's CMSS. Sorry a thousand times, can't ignore it any longer though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  "What U Hear" is a Creative feature, all Sound Blaster boards (I think back before Live! even, that's a ways ago though, so I may not be remembering clearly) have that as a function to make recording/multimedia stuff (like what you described) possible. I think what PFG wants though is an original X-Fi with the Dolby Decoder. Also, the cheapest I'm seeing is a $40 XtremeAudio - which is not truly an X-Fi, it's an Audigy SE with a sticker on it (and does nothing in hardware). 
  
  Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> Nameless, the cheapest Creative card on Newegg is PCI and looks like it does CMMS, I suspect it also does "What U Hear" and it's only ~$25. Might be worth a look if you're looking for a replacement card. It's a shame you have to use up space in your case to get it, but getting software CMMS into your audio chain for $25 isn't too shabby...


----------



## Phos

Is this the Creative outboard device that allows transcoding to binaural audio?  FYI, It doesn't do CMSS, it does THX true studio surround malarkey, so it's kind of been replaced by that recon3D thing.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> Okay, it bugs me now. It's CMSS. Sorry a thousand times, can't ignore it any longer though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Ugh, noob derp there. Sorry about that. Fixed now. In my defense, there are about 50 hits for the wrong acronym when you search for it on the forum. As to the $25 card I saw, it was an Audigy SE on Newegg and it looked looked like it did *CMSS*. If there are people here who desperately want to get in on the virtual surround goodness, all it takes is Win7, a $25 Creative card whose hardware need never be actually used, a spare slot in your PC, and 5 min of software tweaking. Link here - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102003


----------



## LilBuck

Just ordered the Asus Essence ST to use with the new Beyers, will let you know how it goes when they arrive  Thanks for the advice.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> Very interesting. On both counts. Thanks for clarifying on the HomeTheater HD. Indeed, the control panel for the older X-Fi boards does not match my Prelude:
> http://www.ixbt.com/multimedia/creative/x-fi/ent-mode.jpg
> 
> What a shame.


 

 Yes, that's it...those Dolby Digital EX and DTS icons are a dead giveaway that the card has the Decoder features.
   
  I forgot to mention earlier that the card you may have been thinking of was the X-Fi Bravura-the only Auzentech-built X-Fi card to be a "fake" in terms of lacking the DSP.
  
  Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> Okay, it bugs me now. It's CMSS. Sorry a thousand times, can't ignore it any longer though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 "What U Hear" is what most audio devices simply call "Stereo Mix". It's actually a relatively common feature. I don't know why Creative chooses to name it differently.
   
  Also, correct on the bolded part. X-Fi XtremeGamer cards lack the Decoder tab as well. It has to be an X-Fi XtremeMusic (the baseline card without any extras), X-Fi Platinum (XtremeMusic with 5.25" I/O box), X-Fi Fatal1ty FPS (X-Fi Platinum with 64 MB of X-RAM instead of the usual 2 MB for PCI X-Fi cards), or if at all possible, the X-Fi Elite Pro (top-of-the-line model with a slightly different PCB and better DAC chip, as well as a huge external breakout box). There might be a few others I'm missing, but I know that those four SKUs definitely have the Decoder feature.


----------



## ARaees

Please let me know what are the pros & cons of these and which one is best and any more cheaper and best stuff available, which are actually works and gives good performance as USB sound card amp for surround sound? are they work as advertised?
   
  1. IOGEAR USB Theater Sound Xperience Audio Adapter
  2. Creative Soundblaster X-Fi Go! Pro USB Audio System with THX
  3. ASUS Xonar U3 Sound Cards (XONAR_U3/UAD/B/A)
   
  i found these during search for good amps which can be used for my dell XPS 17.3" 3D blue-ray laptop to give more digital surround sound...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 i read that these are very good for laptops for using to watch 3d movies, listening music and games. whoever used these please PM me.
   
  Btw my head-phones are Creative Aurvana Live and Koss KSC75.
   
  Thanks in advance.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I can safely say that none of those do any DSP processing in hardware, though I don't think it'll hinder modern CPUs much.
   
  The X-Fi Go! Pro is said to be cheap crap in terms of audio quality (worse than the prior X-Fi Go! non-Pro, even), but I've heard the same thing about the Xonar U3, too. Can't speak on the offbrand IOGEAR thing. Then again, expecting hi-fi audio out of a $30-40 device is rather unrealistic...


----------



## Phos

Does anyone have any tips on keeping the windows sound settings from changing along with the X-fi settings?  So far the only one that doesn't change the windows settings are the headphone setting, otherwise the two setting remain in sync.


----------



## Phos

A double post but it's about something different so whatever: Does anyone know a way to tell if a game uses OpenAL?


----------



## obobskivich

Oh no, what I'm thinking of is much older, it's pre-X-Fi. It had it's own product line, and was out around the time Creative started to realize that people were plugging their computers into home theater receivers. THX TruStudio is a co-marketing re-pack of the X-Fi features; it still has many of the same features at least in name (like Crystalizer, EQ, etc). 
  Quote: 





phos said:


> Is this the Creative outboard device that allows transcoding to binaural audio?  FYI, It doesn't do CMSS, it does THX true studio surround malarkey, so it's kind of been replaced by that recon3D thing.


 


  No problem, didn't mean to jump on you, it was just bothering me. The Audigy SE has the same problems as the card I mentioned; there's no HW processing and it lacks many features - they're actually the same card.


  Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> Ugh, noob derp there. Sorry about that. Fixed now. In my defense, there are about 50 hits for the wrong acronym when you search for it on the forum. As to the $25 card I saw, it was an Audigy SE on Newegg and it looked looked like it did *CMSS*. If there are people here who desperately want to get in on the virtual surround goodness, all it takes is Win7, a $25 Creative card whose hardware need never be actually used, a spare slot in your PC, and 5 min of software tweaking. Link here - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102003


 

 They should change together. What are you trying to do?
   


  Quote: 





phos said:


> Does anyone have any tips on keeping the windows sound settings from changing along with the X-fi settings?  So far the only one that doesn't change the windows settings are the headphone setting, otherwise the two setting remain in sync.


 

 The X-RAM comment is interesting. If memory serves, when the X-Fi originally came out, there was an X-Fi PCI card that was available as "model X" (I don't know what it was called, it wasn't the Audigy SE re-pack) and then there was a "Platinum" which was the same thing with the tried-and-true Live Drive. These had 2MB of X-RAM, and neither lasted very long. The Fatal1ty boards, the Elite Pro, and the Prelude are all 64MB boards. The non-X-Fi re-packs lack X-RAM and other X-Fi HW features altogether. I believe the second-gen (20k2, first on PCIe) like the Titanium are also 64MB cards, I don't know about the new HD, but I believe the expensive PCIe card is a 64MB board. All of that said, I don't recall X-RAM making a huge performance difference in games except when EAX 5.0 was used (running 128-voices; I recall one of the Battlefield games showing something like a 20 FPS gain over software processing thanks to the X-RAM card; remember that you will never "gain" performance with an X-Fi (in other words, EAX 5.0 with a Prelude will not be faster than non-EAX playback, but non-EAX playback costs you features), you will just prevent a "loss" compared to S/W processing for the same amount of re-touching or calculations that you're doing) - EAX 5.0 is fairly rare from what I've seen (I'm aware of one Battlefield game that uses it; EAX 4.0 seems somewhat more common - it's really surprising how readily developers will adopt something that has an incredibly limited support base and incredibly large buy-in).


----------



## Phos

It's my understanding that games that use fmod will sometimes look at the windows speaker settings to decide how to mix audio.  I also can't help but be paranoid that games that do let me pick the speaker settings are going to be downmixed to stereo before they get to my card. 
   
  I dunno if the titanium has the large x ram, it seems like there are too many fatality boards in the line for that.fear uses EAX 5 to great effect, by the way.


----------



## Brick T0p

Hello guys,
   
  I red the guide Mad Envy wrote (thanks again for that!) and bought myself the Sennheiser PC 360. As a soundcard, I chose the ASUS Xonar D1. These are the default settings for game mode: CLICK. What do you guys think, are they okay for gaming?
   
  - I chose 8 soundchannels (the higher, the better?)
  - I also chose the highest setting for samplespeed
  - Analog out: earphones (I use a headset)
  - SPDIF out: The 'PCM' is not selected. I can chose between PCM and Dolby Digital Live
  - 7.1 Virtual Speaker shifter. By default, it's not selected but I guess it should be turned on?
  - What about the Dolby Headphone?
  - In the right bottom corner, there is a 'GX' mode I can turn on/off. What does it exactly do and should I turn it on? Google learned me it is Asus' version of Creative Alchemy (whatever that might be) and it's better to turn it off.
   
  Thanks in advance guys, I really appreciate your help! Have a nice day.
   
  B.T.


----------



## Cheapy

Hmm it looks like it may be worth doing a round up of what all the settings in the Asus/Creative menu do and adding it to your guide nameless. Lately there has been a good few people asking which channel setup to usse,should GX be enabled, etc.
  
  Quote: 





brick t0p said:


> - I chose 8 soundchannels (the higher, the better?)
> - I also chose the highest setting for samplespeed
> - Analog out: earphones (I use a headset)
> - SPDIF out: The 'PCM' is not selected. I can chose between PCM and Dolby Digital Live
> ...


 

 For soundchannels just pick what sounds best to you. Most people use 8 or 6 channel.
  7.1 virtual speaker I dont use so carnt help with it.
  Dolby headphone is the 3d simulation software. Most people like it but others prefere not using it so just try it out. The DH1, DH2, DH3 are kinda like the room size as I understand it with DH2 being the preferred one.
  GX mode emulates EAX effects (these guys can tell you more about how it works) but it does seem to cause a lot of problems so most people turn it off.
   
  Hope this helps a bit.


----------



## BababooeyHTJ

I can't think of a single game where GX worked properly for me. It made Far Cry crash, it caused issues in Bioshock, I don't recall it working in Titan Quest, and it didn't work in Neverwinter Nights 2. I'm just using the Unified Xonar drivers with the C-media control panel with GX disabled. Thankfully I only play like 1 eax supported title a year.


----------



## Mystere

How does CMSS sound in BF3 in comparison to dolby headphone?  I'm currently using an astro mixamp on my pc but am interested in other options.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





mystere said:


> How does CMSS sound in BF3 in comparison to dolby headphone?  I'm currently using an astro mixamp on my pc but am interested in other options.


 

 CMSS sounds great for me in BF3, noticeably better than the ingame virtual surround. Don't have any experience with DH though.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





phos said:


> A double post but it's about something different so whatever: Does anyone know a way to tell if a game uses OpenAL?


 
   

  If there's an OpenAL32.dll in the game folder along with the main executable, that's a dead giveaway. (For some reason, BF2 and BF2142 have BF2OpenAL.dll, but that's still just another obvious giveaway.)
   
  Less obvious are games like Bioshock that use an older version of FMOD or SDL with an OpenAL passthrough.
   
  Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> The X-RAM comment is interesting. If memory serves, when the X-Fi originally came out, there was an X-Fi PCI card that was available as "model X" (I don't know what it was called, it wasn't the Audigy SE re-pack) and then there was a "Platinum" which was the same thing with the tried-and-true Live Drive. These had 2MB of X-RAM, and neither lasted very long. The Fatal1ty boards, the Elite Pro, and the Prelude are all 64MB boards. The non-X-Fi re-packs lack X-RAM and other X-Fi HW features altogether. I believe the second-gen (20k2, first on PCIe) like the Titanium are also 64MB cards, I don't know about the new HD, but I believe the expensive PCIe card is a 64MB board. All of that said, I don't recall X-RAM making a huge performance difference in games except when EAX 5.0 was used (running 128-voices; I recall one of the Battlefield games showing something like a 20 FPS gain over software processing thanks to the X-RAM card; remember that you will never "gain" performance with an X-Fi (in other words, EAX 5.0 with a Prelude will not be faster than non-EAX playback, but non-EAX playback costs you features), you will just prevent a "loss" compared to S/W processing for the same amount of re-touching or calculations that you're doing) - EAX 5.0 is fairly rare from what I've seen (I'm aware of one Battlefield game that uses it; EAX 4.0 seems somewhat more common - it's really surprising how readily developers will adopt something that has an incredibly limited support base and incredibly large buy-in).


 

 I'm not sure how important the X-RAM really is, but this I do know:
   
  -PCI X-Fi cards not touted as having X-RAM only have 2 MB, as you said.
  -PCI-Express X-Fi cards not touted as having X-RAM have 16 MB.
  -All cards with X-RAM have 64 MB, with a possible exception of some Gigabyte G1-series motherboards that may include 128 MB for whatever reason.
  -In spite of Amazon's checkbox list and lack of advertising, the X-Fi Titanium HD does actually have the full 64 MB, going by its OpenAL capability flags.
   
  As for EAX 5.0, I'm also not sure what uses it besides Battlefield 2 and 2142. Bioshock may use it, but I'm not certain. It doesn't help that a lot of later games have an "enable EAX" option without actually saying what version it is, and you have to read the fine print to find out what cards are supported or not.
  
  Quote: 





cheapy said:


> Hmm it looks like it may be worth doing a round up of what all the settings in the Asus/Creative menu do and adding it to your guide nameless. Lately there has been a good few people asking which channel setup to use, should GX be enabled, etc.
> 
> For soundchannels just pick what sounds best to you. Most people use 8 or 6 channel.
> 7.1 virtual speaker I dont use so carnt help with it.
> ...


 

 I'll definitely consider adding something for Xonar cards (and other C-Media cards) later on, but it would really help if I actually had one of the cards to test with without having to pay up for it first.
   
  Also, the virtual speaker shifter seems to go in hand with Dolby Headphone, from what I've heard.
   
  As for the Dolby Headphone modes, DH2 adds a little reverb, while DH3 adds a lot of reverb. That's the functional difference. The slight reverb may be an important enough cue that a lot of people seem to prefer DH2 (and the processor used in the Mixamp and Ear Force DSS only supports DH2 mode), but I can get a good sense of direction just from using DH1 mode out of the SU-DH1.


----------



## Phos

(Like I said before) F.E.A.R. also uses EAX 5.


----------



## DreamKing

is an essence st enough to drive ultrasone pro 900s?


----------



## Wage

Quote: 





dreamking said:


> is an essence st enough to drive ultrasone pro 900s?


 


  Yes, it's good for anything up to 600ohms.
   
  As far as I can tell, the Ultrasone Pro 900s are low impedance (40ohms) similar to Grados of the same price range.


----------



## obobskivich

So that's three. I think Bioshock (the first one at least) uses EAX 4, but I could be wrong (I get the "Enable EAX" option with both the Audigy 2 ZS and X-Fi, so I assume it's EAX 4; it may well have some backwards compatibility support though - 4 seems a lot more common than 5 having said that). 
  Quote: 





phos said:


> (Like I said before) F.E.A.R. also uses EAX 5.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





phos said:


> (Like I said before) F.E.A.R. also uses EAX 5.


 

 *jogs memory* You're probably right. I don't own F.E.A.R. (only played the demo), so it didn't immediately jump out at me as an example.
   
  Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> So that's three. I think Bioshock (the first one at least) uses EAX 4, but I could be wrong (I get the "Enable EAX" option with both the Audigy 2 ZS and X-Fi, so I assume it's EAX 4; it may well have some backwards compatibility support though - 4 seems a lot more common than 5 having said that).


 

 I certainly can't rule out that possibility...as I've said before, I don't have any experience with the Audigy 1/2/4 line, having skipped straight from Live! to X-Fi.
   
  You'd think that developers would at least make it a bit more obvious as to what level of EAX they're allowing you to use...for instance, those games that actually let you toggle between EAX 1/2/3 or plain DirectSound.


----------



## Phos

Some random Google searching is giving me the idea that Fear's EAX effects are only helped so much by ALchemy, I'm seeing a lot of what looks like reports that it isn't restored very well in 7. 
   
  Also I'm seeing some claims that it's using EAX 4, but I recall it going up high enough that it needed an X-fi.


----------



## obobskivich

http://www.creative.com/soundblaster/technology/welcome_flash.asp?j1=eax Here's the list from Creative - click EAX Games List. It only lists EAX and EAX Advanced HD as categories; Advanced HD began with 4.0 if I'm not mistaken (with the Audigy series). 
   
  Here's a less-flashy but more detailed list:
  http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/Lists/Games/AllItems.aspx


----------



## googleli

Tried playing Skyrim last night on my GTX580 SLi using a 60" 3DTV and Smyth Realizer -> SR009 headphone setup. Quite something I'd say. Now I need my BHSE to arrive soon to complete the picture.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> http://www.creative.com/soundblaster/technology/welcome_flash.asp?j1=eax Here's the list from Creative - click EAX Games List. It only lists EAX and EAX Advanced HD as categories; Advanced HD began with 4.0 if I'm not mistaken (with the Audigy series).
> 
> Here's a less-flashy but more detailed list:
> http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/Lists/Games/AllItems.aspx


 

 Those lists will help quite a bit, though at some point, I want to make my own site that provides a similar list, but goes into further detail as to what extensions are supported.
   
  Not just EAX, but A3D too, even if nothing from the past decade supports it thanks to Creative eating up Aureal.
  
  Quote: 





googleli said:


> Tried playing Skyrim last night on my GTX580 SLi using a 60" 3DTV and Smyth Realizer -> SR009 headphone setup. Quite something I'd say. Now I need my BHSE to arrive soon to complete the picture.


 

 You make my wallet seem so inadequate...
   
  When you get the BHSE, may I ask where the SRM-727 will go?


----------



## obobskivich

I thought basic A3D support was kind of a de facto standard, just like basic EAX. At least for modern-ish hardware (Aureal hardware was still sold as Turtle Beach until a year or so ago, I believe VIA and C-Media hardware still supports A3D) - I could be entirely wrong though, I can't actually think of a single game that needs A3D over EAX or something else. A3D is like GLiDE, it's neat to read about but ultimately worthless in modern times.
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Those lists will help quite a bit, though at some point, I want to make my own site that provides a similar list, but goes into further detail as to what extensions are supported.
> 
> Not just EAX, but A3D too, even if nothing from the past decade supports it thanks to Creative eating up Aureal.


----------



## BababooeyHTJ

You need GTX580 sli to play skyirm at 1080p at 60hz? I play it in 3d with lesser hardware and a ton of texture mods. 
  
  Quote: 





googleli said:


> Tried playing Skyrim last night on my GTX580 SLi using a 60" 3DTV and Smyth Realizer -> SR009 headphone setup. Quite something I'd say. Now I need my BHSE to arrive soon to complete the picture.


----------



## obobskivich

No, I think he was just explaining what he had. 
  Quote: 





bababooeyhtj said:


> You need GTX580 sli to play skyirm at 1080p at 60hz? I play it in 3d with lesser hardware and a ton of texture mods.


----------



## googleli

Skyrim is just DX9, it obviously doesn't need all of my GTX580 SLI's power.

  
  Quote: 





bababooeyhtj said:


> You need GTX580 sli to play skyirm at 1080p at 60hz? I play it in 3d with lesser hardware and a ton of texture mods.


----------



## googleli

The SRM-727II will be put up for sale.
  
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> You make my wallet seem so inadequate...
> 
> When you get the BHSE, may I ask where the SRM-727 will go?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> I thought basic A3D support was kind of a de facto standard, just like basic EAX. At least for modern-ish hardware (Aureal hardware was still sold as Turtle Beach until a year or so ago, I believe VIA and C-Media hardware still supports A3D) - I could be entirely wrong though, I can't actually think of a single game that needs A3D over EAX or something else. A3D is like GLiDE, it's neat to read about but ultimately worthless in modern times.


 

 A3D 1.0 is as prevalent as DirectSound3D. A3D 2.0 and 3.0, on the other hand...not so much. It doesn't help that only cards with the Vortex2 chipset can properly accelerate those.
   
  In particular, A3D 2.0 added a wavetracing feature. It literally calculated how sounds reflected in the game environment, as opposed to having general environmental presets ala EAX. However, this did take a heavy toll on the CPUs of the time, which were already taxed enough with other aspects of the game engine. Aureal planned to release a DSP daughterboard for their SQ2500 card to alleviate that issue and call the combo the SQ3500 Turbo, but then they got bankrupted by their legal battles with Creative, and the rest is history.
   
  While I can't think of any games where A3D sounds distinctly better than EAX, some die-hard Half-Life/Counter-Strike fans insist on A3D. Some claim that it allows people to hear sounds that are farther away compared to plain DirectSound3D or EAX. However, other statements raving about A3D in those games talk about how people with headphones could pinpoint sound sources while blindfolded...I get the impression that Aureal's main draw there wasn't the wavetracing, but that they were the first to implement binaural surround for headphones (and to a lesser extent, stereo speakers) long before anyone else thought of it for gaming. I'm even sure that CMSS-3D Headphone draws as much from Aureal tech as it does Sensaura tech.
   
  To further add to the confusion, Aureal used A3D as a sort of brand...in addition to the API and DirectSound3D extensions, A3D 3.0 in particular also referred to middleware not much unlike the Miles Sound System or FMOD.


----------



## BababooeyHTJ

What does the graphics api have to do with the amount of horsepower that the game requires? Some of the most gpu intensive games that I've played are DX9 based, the witcher 2 is a recent example.
  

 Quote: 





googleli said:


> Skyrim is just DX9, it obviously doesn't need all of my GTX580 SLI's power.


 


   
  Not sure why, you could max out skyrim at 1080p with a 5770. 
  Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> No, I think he was just explaining what he had.


----------



## facetman

OK - have read this entire thread , and looked at the other thread- and I am overwhelmed to say the least. I just want to be able to tell where the Helicopter or tank or other guy that is shooting at me is in a FPS.
   
  PC specs:
   
  CPU: i5 2500K
  GPU: MSi 560ti ( 448 core)
  MOBO:  Asrock Z68 = http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=Z68%20Extreme3%20Gen3 - specs say it has 7.1 on it.
   
  HD receiver gets both audio and video signal from HDMI out on the GPU and played sounds to speakers and send video to the plasma TV. BUT obviously I need a headset to play FPS. 
   
  Looking for a gaming headset (prefer under $150 ) that is comfortable , has good sound ( not ultra) , and can direct where sound is coming from. I would prefer not to have to buy anything else- sound card, or AMP. 
   
  Is that possible?
   
   
  .


----------



## bigsushi

I'm planning on getting a pair of K701s for use with my PC for gaming and movie and TV viewing but I'm worried about properly driving them. If I could get a sound card with a built-in amp that can drive them well that's my preferred route but I'd also consider getting a pretty good desktop amp like the E9 or something similar if that's what these headphones really need.
   
  So my question; is there a sound card that supports Dolby headphone or CMSS (I have not had the best of luck with Creative cards though) that can properly drive the K701s or is my best bet to get something like the Xonar DG and a desktop amp?
   
  Thanks for any and all help.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





bigsushi said:


> So my question; is there a sound card that supports Dolby headphone or CMSS (I have not had the best of luck with Creative cards though) that can properly drive the K701s or is my best bet to get something like the Xonar DG and a desktop amp?


 

 The Essence ST/STX and Claro Halo cards which have a good amp chip in them have a 10 ohm output impedance which is more than ideal for the K701.  The E9 uses the same chip as well.  That extra output impedance will make the bass loose or boomy sounding compared to an amp with a lower output impedance.  Those cards or the E9 will get the K701 plenty loud without any nasty clipping or anything but a lower output impedance would be better.
   
  Something like the Objective2 with just as much power into the the K701s but a lower output impedance would be better but you could do _a lot _worse than an STX if you're on a budget or don't want an extra box on your desk.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





facetman said:


> OK - have read this entire thread , and looked at the other thread- and I am overwhelmed to say the least. I just want to be able to tell where the Helicopter or tank or other guy that is shooting at me is in a FPS.
> 
> Looking for a gaming headset (prefer under $150 ) that is comfortable , has good sound ( not ultra) , and can direct where sound is coming from. I would prefer not to have to buy anything else- sound card, or AMP.
> 
> Is that possible?


 

 In that kind of price range if you're looking for comfort, sound, and direction while still being able to be driven easily I would have to recommend the Beyerdynamic DT770-Pro 80 ohm with an separate mic (probably a modmic). You should be able to find them for around $150, mine I found for $130. That's assuming you have a directional audio source to feed them though. Sound isn't the absolute best and you're going to want to do a very long burn in, I've heard some people quote up to 300hrs for the 770s before they really mellow out. In terms of comfort and directional audio though they're generally very highly regarded, although most people here go with the more expensive 990/880 for the better SQ and "sparkle" on the high end. Those however require a amp to drive. Bonus with Beyers in general though, they are built like an absolute tank. Basically, if you're looking to stay in a ~$200 pricerange and just want a solid entry-level setup without any obvious weaknesses, I'd seriously look into getting a 770 80ohm with a modmic, and an Asus Xonar or lower end Creative soundcard.


----------



## ninjikiran

That CMSS-3d trick w/ windows 7 looks sick.  Any similar functionality with a dolby headphone based unit? I seem to have more enjoyment from dolby headphone.
   
  Luckily I didnt trash my Auzentech prelude.  I will try this tonight. Besides it'll give me an opportunity to almost a/b the julias digital output.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> That CMSS-3d trick w/ windows 7 looks sick.  Any similar functionality with a dolby headphone based unit? I seem to have more enjoyment from dolby headphone.
> 
> Luckily I didnt trash my Auzentech prelude.  I will try this tonight. Besides it'll give me an opportunity to almost a/b the julias digital output.


 
  Apparently most cards have a recording option called "Stereo Mix" instead of "What U Hear" so I think you could pull off porting DH from a Xonar, assuming it does all the processing in software like CMSS does. From a few Google searches it looks like the Xonar cards have Stereo Mix but it's disabled in the Windows recording menu by default, so just show disabled devices and flip it on. If DH is your flavor of choice go for it and be sure to report back if it works. I don't have a DH-supporting card though so I can't do the testing myself


----------



## ninjikiran

Not going to invest in a DH card if it doesn't work with them properly but getting software processed digital audio to my higher end dac is brilliant enough for me to enjoy CMSS-3d.  The analog outputs suck, even on my julia its a significantly(not even audiophile level) change in sound quality between it and my bifrost.
   
  The only problem is getting the digital input processed, and then spitting it back out for game consoles.  For that I was using the astro mixamp till a battery destroyed it.


----------



## facetman

I have a pair of ultraphone 580's - if I got a sound card for the PC will that work?


----------



## Isotriv

hmmm maybe I am asking this in the wrong thread but does anybody know: What I should be looking for when shopping for a soundcard?
 You see, I heard that built-in motherboard jacks won't be enough to power a headset like the PC360s and in shopping for a new soundcard I am confused as to
 what to look for in the first place. Some questions I have are:  
   
  Exactly what am I looking for spec wise?

 How cheap of a card can I buy? (that will still be enough to power the headset)   

 Should I get a optical out? (probably for a DAC later or something?)

 Are Creative and Asus the top brands for soundcards?

 ...I pretty much have no idea how any of this works, In fact I'm still in shock that you would need a separate soundcard to power a headset : /
  
  The card I have in mind right now is: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102041 it seems good, but I'd like to spend less than $90 if possible


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





isotriv said:


> hmmm maybe I am asking this in the wrong thread but does anybody know: What I should be looking for when shopping for a soundcard?
> You see, I heard that built-in motherboard jacks won't be enough to power a headset like the PC360s and in shopping for a new soundcard I am confused as to
> what to look for in the first place. Some questions I have are:
> 
> ...


 

 AFAIK, Asus and Creative are the two most common brands of soundcards, and are on par with each other in most categories like SQ and Dolby (digital, not headphone) support. 50ohm on the PC360 seems reasonable to drive from most sources, I'm running 80ohm Beyers off my run-of-the-mill Creative card with no problems. While the circuits on the card/DAC are what give it its sound and headphones each have a distinctive profile, output impedance on the soundcard is probably something you want to check as it can be a good measure of how they'll work *together.* My Beyers for example have a very big reputation for "boomy" bass, but it disappears when you listen to them on an output with very low impedance. At that point if they sound "boomy" you can blame it on the artist you're listening to as the problem is most likely in the way the track was made. There are some internal soundcards with built-in amps that can drive even 600ohm cans if you're really worried or plan to upgrade in the future, but they are few and far between. Creative in my experience has been pretty horrible for any kind of driver support compared to Asus, their config menus are mostly useless, and 80% of the options just make the output sound like crap, but they seem to have a lot of extra "instruction sets" that most game engines pick up on and utilize. I'd imagine it's something like how some games like Civ 5 which is very texture and tessellation heavy runs better on Nvidia cards even when compared to AMD cards with essentially the same specs. You'd have to ask some of the other guys here for more specifics on that, as that's pretty far outside my limited knowledge.


----------



## obobskivich

If you're just using the card as a source, you can go pretty cheap - Asus is probably the better choice as the cheaper Creatives tend to be re-packaged hold-overs from years and years ago. I think most of the "extra options" from both Asus and Creative have a place and function, but it depends on how they're used. They can entirely butcher the signal, if you want them to. Digital out can be worthwile if you want to connect to other devices, but to be quite honest it's going to be fairly transparent vs an outboard device (and yes, outboard devices cost a lot more - mostly because there are people who will pay for it). I don't know a thing about the Recon cards; I haven't heard good things though.
   
  Regarding other options - HT Omega is going to be more or less identical to Asus (both use C-Media chipsets), and Auzen should be right up there with them. I'd give them both a look; I remember Auzen having a lot of $40-$80 options that were very good and HT Omega having at least one model in that price range (Auzen subscribes to the "32 flavors" model; HT Omega only has a few options).


----------



## Phos

I'm starting to get the impression that Battlefield 2142 actually uses EFX, primarily based on how Blue Ripple Sound lists it as one of their compatible games even though Rapture 3D doesn't support EAX (was already legacy when Rapture3D was made).  
   
  And in case no one else mentioned it, I suspect that PCIe made X-ram pointless when the sound card has what amounts to its its own high speed bus to run on.  
  
  Quote: 





isotriv said:


> hmmm maybe I am asking this in the wrong thread but does anybody know: What I should be looking for when shopping for a soundcard?
> You see, I heard that built-in motherboard jacks won't be enough to power a headset like the PC360s and in shopping for a new soundcard I am confused as to
> what to look for in the first place. Some questions I have are:
> 
> ...


 

 The PC360 can run off integrated, the primary reason in this thread that we have these sound cards is for their surround effects.  If you're going to get a DAC later creative's cards seem to be better at sending everything over optical.  The Recon3D seems like a good place to start but they jury's still out on whether it's actually an upgrade or downgrade over the previous generation X-fi.  The Recon3D is really still a bit mysterious in terms of what it actually does vs. what's just done in software vs. hardware.  No one here seems to have one yet, so we don't really know how well they work.  
   
  It's kinda bothersome that this sort of thing is becoming so esoteric with no true mainstream replacement considering that proper HRTF binaural audio has so many benefits.

  
  Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> Apparently most cards have a recording option called "Stereo Mix" instead of "What U Hear" so I think you could pull off porting DH from a Xonar, assuming it does all the processing in software like CMSS does. From a few Google searches it looks like the Xonar cards have Stereo Mix but it's disabled in the Windows recording menu by default, so just show disabled devices and flip it on. If DH is your flavor of choice go for it and be sure to report back if it works. I don't have a DH-supporting card though so I can't do the testing myself


 

 I'm pretty sure that the X-fi does hardware processing and it's just able to send the resulting sound back to the rest of the system.


----------



## ninjikiran

Yea I wouldnt suggest the prelude from auzentech as a pure gamer card.  While it works fine, the drivers are a bit glitchy outside of pro-audio and bit streamed playback.  In Battlefield 3 it was perfect but the helicopter demo was totally glitched.
   
  The Auzentech meridian looks like a sick dolby unit though.
   
  To report music straight out of the digital of my Julia, with default sound to my auzentech in game mode is perfect.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





isotriv said:


> hmmm maybe I am asking this in the wrong thread but does anybody know: What I should be looking for when shopping for a soundcard?
> You see, I heard that built-in motherboard jacks won't be enough to power a headset like the PC360s and in shopping for a new soundcard I am confused as to
> what to look for in the first place. Some questions I have are:
> 
> ...


 



 Just buy a card that has the features you want and offers S/Pdif output both coaxial and optical.  This way you can connect up to whatever DAC/amp you want.
  Depending on what you want go for EAX/OpenAL based cards to cover all your bases.  CMSS-3D or Dolby Headphone will help for surround imaging over headphones (if you like such things).  You don't need a high priced card if you are just using it as a digital source for a DAC.
   
  On your headphone question, some headphones require more power to drive then normal line level outputs available on a soundcard.
  Your card doesn't need an amp though if you are going to connect to a DAC/Amp down the chain.
   
  You can always just go with a card that has a built in headphone amp also, such as the STX for example, there are a few different ones that you can check into.


----------



## ninjikiran

Another note of caution the prelude doesnt do dsp effects over spdif far as I know.
   
  Thinking of keeping thel yr once my taboo comes in and get created a secondary rig around it.


----------



## obobskivich

My Prelude does just fine via S/PDIF. Drivers are stable too. Never had problems; all three modes.
   
   
  PCIe shouldn't eliminate the benefit of X-RAM; would be interesting to see actual numbers though (it's a neat thought!). 
  
  Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> Another note of caution the prelude doesnt do dsp effects over spdif far as I know.
> 
> Thinking of keeping thel yr once my taboo comes in and get created a secondary rig around it.


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> My Prelude does just fine via S/PDIF. Drivers are stable too. Never had problems; all three modes.
> 
> 
> PCIe shouldn't eliminate the benefit of X-RAM; would be interesting to see actual numbers though (it's a neat thought!).


 

 It'd be kinda tricky to actually benchmark the difference, though, considering that every PCIe X-fi has at least 16 MB so it'd be tough to isolate.  The benefit to frame rate is likely thanks to the system not having to wait for audio data to be transferred to the card for processing, so having more bandwidth should eliminate the bottleneck.


----------



## torpedoPhil

I want to connect stereo-headphones (either AD700 or DT770 Pro) to my Laptop. To get decent sound quality I want to get one of the Astro Mixamps (Pro or 5.8) for better stereo sound for music and surround sound for fps gaming. I'm using a Toshiba Satellite L500-164 (specs: http://de.computers.toshiba-europe.com/innovation/jsp/SUPPORTSECTION/discontinuedProductPage.do?service=DE&toshibaShop=false&BV_UseBVCookie=yes&PRODUCT_ID=1072417&BV_Script=/jsp/fixup/productPage ) with a Realtek onboard sound.
   
  As i understand to get the best sound quality out of the Astros you need to connect them via Toslink. As I don't have a Toslink jack, can i just plug it in via USB and everythings works well or can I get an adapter and solve the problem that way?
   
  Thanks in advance, I'm new to these topics


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





torpedophil said:


> I want to connect stereo-headphones (either AD700 or DT770 Pro) to my Laptop. To get decent sound quality I want to get one of the Astro Mixamps (Pro or 5.8) for better stereo sound for music and surround sound for fps gaming. I'm using a Toshiba Satellite L500-164 (specs: http://de.computers.toshiba-europe.com/innovation/jsp/SUPPORTSECTION/discontinuedProductPage.do?service=DE&toshibaShop=false&BV_UseBVCookie=yes&PRODUCT_ID=1072417&BV_Script=/jsp/fixup/productPage ) with a Realtek onboard sound.
> 
> As i understand to get the best sound quality out of the Astros you need to connect them via Toslink. As I don't have a Toslink jack, can i just plug it in via USB and everythings works well or can I get an adapter and solve the problem that way?
> 
> Thanks in advance, I'm new to these topics


 
  I believe the Mixamp does indeed have USB input.


----------



## Phos

I don't know if the mixamp does that much over USB, but I know that Creative's external Recon3D can do everything over USB.


----------



## Isotriv

wow, thank you all for the over whelming response guys! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Never before have I posted in a thread and got actual answers with such depth and guidance. I'm gonna have to re-evaluate my future plans for a DAC but I pretty much know what to buy now. Thanks again guys


----------



## LilBuck

Anyone use Dolby Headphone have a modification for making Ventrilo/Skype etc sound more natural (using Asus Xonar Essence ST)? To me that was the one thing that didn't seem to sound right.


----------



## torpedoPhil

Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> I believe the Mixamp does indeed have USB input.


 


  I know it does, but I'm not sure if it sounds the same then. Also I think the game/voice sound balance knob doesn't work anymore when using USB alone. I could deal with the Mic thingy, but I want the best sound quality possible from that combination of hardware. Does it sound differently via USB than via Toslink?
   
  Also, is there a possibility to take a Toslink converter, maybe to 3,5mm and have the best sound possible?
   
  Thanks for your answers


----------



## atmospheric

is there any way i can improve the spacial audio qualities coming from CA DacMagic over USB while gaming?


----------



## googleli

Add a headphone amp.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





atmospheric said:


> is there any way i can improve the spacial audio qualities coming from CA DacMagic over USB while gaming?


 


  Do you mean spacial in terms of gaming sound?
  If so then, no.  You would need to use a card to supply the S/Pdif signal to the DAC.


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





torpedophil said:


> I know it does, but I'm not sure if it sounds the same then. Also I think the game/voice sound balance knob doesn't work anymore when using USB alone. I could deal with the Mic thingy, but I want the best sound quality possible from that combination of hardware. Does it sound differently via USB than via Toslink?
> 
> Also, is there a possibility to take a Toslink converter, maybe to 3,5mm and have the best sound possible?
> 
> Thanks for your answers


 


  If you want everything to work over USB the only solution I know of is the external version of Creative's Recon3D, or if you only need PC capabilities, the X-Fi surround 5.1.

  
  Quote: 





atmospheric said:


> is there any way i can improve the spacial audio qualities coming from CA DacMagic over USB while gaming?


 

 Are you on a desktop?  If you're on a desktop you can run toslink or coax from your card to the DAC magic.  If you don't have a card with HRTF yet Creative seems like the way to go in that respect, it's mu understanding that their cards do a better job running processed audio out via S/PDIF.  If USB is the only option, I imagine you're on a laptop, and then your options become trickier, probably the surround 5.1 I mentioned?


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





atmospheric said:


> is there any way i can improve the spacial audio qualities coming from CA DacMagic over USB while gaming?


 

 Oh hey thar! You know, you could always do what I've been testing in prep for my E17 and turn a cheap Creative card into a soulless DSP machine in the audio chain. Basically trading an expansion slot for DSP surround/EAX effect.


----------



## atmospheric

but is it really worth the effect? and do you think it would make any noticeable degradation in the signal chain? ... actually I might be able to use the soundcard for gaming, and switch inputs to USB on my DAC for music if windows 7 supports multiple digital sound outputs at a single time.  I imagine it does.  which card do you recommend for relatively cheap?
  
  Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> Oh hey thar! You know, you could always do what I've been testing in prep for my E17 and turn a cheap Creative card into a soulless DSP machine in the audio chain. Basically trading an expansion slot for DSP surround/EAX effect.


----------



## Phos

I connected my DAC to my motherboard's coax port and to my soundcard's toslink port, I made the soundcard the default device and set foobar to output to hd audio device coax. Then I just switch inputs for music listening with a push of a button on my DAC. 
   
  That's the easy part. Theannoying part is having to lie to games about my speaker set up because of how all over the place PC game audio has become. On some games the best I can do is have them output 7.1 and then have my card virtualize that, most OpenAL games just look at my sound card configuration (this is hardware acceleration, so the card is making the audio here), BUT a lot of games look at my windows sound configuration, and some games include Rapture 3D which is a software solution but works really good.


----------



## ninjikiran

Just thought ide tell ya, there is no degradation in the audio chain. WASAPI/ASIO mutes all other sources from effecting the output.
   
  In short when using the audigy speaker output I hear the audible different that game mode is on(foobar testing) while outputting wasapi through my juli@ everything is still clean.
   
  In short the net change between the before and after is quite simple really.  Same as watching a youtube video while listening to music through WASAPI.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> ASIO mutes all other sources from effecting the output.


 

 That's never happened to me on an X-Fi card (other sounds play just fine), yet I'm still pretty sure it's ASIO because the sampling rate changes in Audio Creation Mode, and ASIO mode doesn't work if the card isn't set to Audio Creation Mode.
   
  Owners of other sound cards say it behaves just like WASAPI exclusive mode, though...no other sources get into the output, and there may not even be a software-controlled volume adjustment, having to turn things down on an amp later down the chain.


----------



## ninjikiran

asio is more glitchy than WASAPI in most drivers which is why I prefer WASAPI.  On the xfi I never had issues with asio and other streams but I do on the Juli@ which is awkward but true.

   
  In that picture I have a youtube video running, and using my Julias spdif output on foobar.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





atmospheric said:


> but is it really worth the effect? and do you think it would make any noticeable degradation in the signal chain? ... actually I might be able to use the soundcard for gaming, and switch inputs to USB on my DAC for music if windows 7 supports multiple digital sound outputs at a single time.  I imagine it does.  which card do you recommend for relatively cheap?


 

 My vote would be spend $25-30 on the Audigy SE which is a plain old PCI card and see for yourself if the DSP is worth it. I'd start by disabling all effects on the Creative card except for CMSS in all three audio modes. Use the Creative mode switching software that comes with the card to only flip on game mode when you actually play a game/watch a Blu-Ray. CMSS-3D is impossible to enable when you're not in game mode, so that will ensure it doesn't switch on accidentally and butcher your music. The quality loss in BF3 (which I've done the most testing with) is noticeable but completely worth it for the vastly improved positioning IMO, at least enough to recommend a $30 investment and trying it out for a week or two. In the end most of the setting changes would be one-time (my earlier guide) or automatic (the audio mode switcher), the only thing you'd have to change often would be primary audio device from the DSP card ported to the DAC to just the DAC which is only a 5 second job. Essentially it creates a completely separate virtual leg that's added on as a whole before the normal audio chain, so after the preprocessing and DSP goes on to use the second set of Windows output settings on the DAC and doesn't alter them at all. You don't even need to uncheck listening for the audio capture, once you change back to the DAC you won't have anything to listen in on anymore. Bonus points to anyone who can figure out how to make launching certain applications switch the default audio playback device, then it'd be completely automatic.

 As to audio creation mode and ASIO, I don't think it's going to do a thing if you port that via the listening mode as it's not altering the *sound* at all without other "features" like the Crystalizer which I already recommended you disable earlier if you want it to do only DSP and not alter your audio chain outside of games. The key features of "creation mode" are output sample rate adjustment which the "What U Hear" and DAC will ignore and keep capturing and replaying the ported audio at 96khz regardless of whether the Creative is sampling at 44.1khz or 192khz, and latency reduction which is made moot when you're just porting to a USB DAC anyway. If anything you'd be slightly increasing lag over just running straight to the DAC itself. So unless you're using the usually crappy plugins like Crystalizer/Bass Boost/EQ with porting there's really no point in adding the Creative card in before your usual audio chain for anything but gaming if you already have a better DAC you're using for music. The whole point of this hack is really using the best of both worlds - the best music DAC quality with the best of gaming soundcard DSP effects. The real benefit of a cheap card is solely distilling out the DSP and porting to a better DAC, for 90% of the people on Head-Fi a $30 card would be a step back but they still might want the DSP. If it really is an upgrade because you were using onboard sound before you got a Creative card, you should get your head checked as to why you'd want to port DSP to a crappy onboard soundcard 
   
  EDIT: On second look it sounds like you're using optical in on your DAC for music. In that case, sorry for my misunderstanding. Audio creation mode should actually help, but I'll leave my explanation up for those of us using USB DACs with the DSP porting.


----------



## ROBSCIX

The Audigy SE is a very old card and it does NOT have a DSP.
   
  If budget is a concern you can go with an entry level Xonar DG.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





robscix said:


> The Audigy SE is a very old card and it does NOT have a DSP.
> 
> If budget is a concern you can go with an entry level Xonar DG.


 
   
  According to the details page I saw for the card it does both CMSS-3D and "What U Hear" capture, the two features that are required for my virtual 3D surround port-to-DAC hack. As far as I could tell it has no optical out and doesn't do DD, but would work just fine for getting CMSS ported to any USB DAC under the rainbow. I'm not advising anyone to get it for the craptastic soundcard, just the great virtual surround software.
   
  Yeah... on second thought... probably a better idea to go with the PCI-E X-Fi Xtreme Audio for $45 which is actually fully supported in Win7 and has an actual DSP on it. It also has optical ports and DD support which is probably worth the extra $15 even for the most frugal among us. This setup is convoluted enough without a second software hack on the front end of the audio chain, especially since it'd be Creative's kind of software hack and not mine 
   
  Edit - Turns out the Xtreme Audio isn't supported for "What U Hear" either. The budget side of this hack is getting worse and worse. Screw you Creative for your horrible driver support/concessions to the RIAA/forcing your customers to buy more expensive models. Here's the well hidden list of cards that officially support "What U Hear" in Windows 7: http://support.creative.com/kb/showarticle.aspx?sid=87127


----------



## ROBSCIX

You can use many cards to pass headphone surround imaging to an external DAC/head amp, it is not a hack or new idea.


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> According to the details page I saw for the card it does both CMSS-3D and "What U Hear" capture, the two features that are required for my virtual 3D surround port-to-DAC hack. As far as I could tell it has no optical out and doesn't do DD, but would work just fine for getting CMSS ported to any USB DAC under the rainbow. I'm not advising anyone to get it for the craptastic soundcard, just the great virtual surround software.


 

  
  The idea behind this set up amuses me, you're basically buying a software application with a hardware key that also has some extraneous functions.  
   
  Also if Creative is to be believed they improved CMSS-3D with the X-fi line so I'd think the Audigy SE has an older version, and I can't help but wonder how long Creative is going to keep supporting a card that old, unless it uses the same drivers as the X-fi Xtreme audio, which is the same card with a new name and maybe different drivers.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





robscix said:


> You can use many cards to pass headphone surround imaging to an external DAC/head amp, it is not a hack or new idea.


 
   
  Bear in mind I'm a complete noob here. Though I did look for a few hours to see if I was passing along ancient knowledge before writing up a guide, and found nothing in this thread, the MLE thread, and a few others. If it's an old idea, it's at least not a very well known or discussed one. At some point I actually want to make a flowchart of how it works and take a few samples of what different options do to the SQ.
   
  Quote: 





phos said:


> The idea behind this set up amuses me, you're basically buying a software application with a hardware key that also has some extraneous functions.
> 
> Also if Creative is to be believed they improved CMSS-3D with the X-fi line so I'd think the Audigy SE has an older version, and I can't help but wonder how long Creative is going to keep supporting a card that old, unless it uses the same drivers as the X-fi Xtreme audio, which is the same card with a new name and maybe different drivers.


 

 Never said it was anything but exactly that. For those of us with Creative cards that have since been stuffed in closets, it's a pretty neat feature. As for buying a card just to get CMSS, the more I research the more I realize just how much rebranding, crippling, and upgrade incentive Creative has inflicted on their low end cards. The pricetag for a minimal-hacking setup just keeps getting higher and higher. The basic premise of combining superior directionality with superior sound hardware still really appeals to me though.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> Bear in mind I'm a complete noob here. Though I did look for a few hours to see if I was passing along ancient knowledge before writing up a guide, and found nothing in this thread, the MLE thread, and a few others. If it's an old idea, it's at least not a very well known or discussed one. At some point I actually want to make a flowchart of how it works and take a few samples of what different options do to the SQ.


 

 That's fine if you are new, just relaying the info to you that using a card as a processor for S/Pdif prior to a DAC is not a new idea and if you look many people use such systems for gaming or to allow other processing for music..movies..etc
   
  Almost any card from CL, ASUS or Auzen will allow any effect processing done on the card to be sent out over the S/Pdif to an external DAC.  It is a feature that is there to be used in this manner and the idea has been mentioned countless times in this forum and others.
   
  It is a simple idea as a simple DAC will give you high grade stereo sound but not much else, so using a card for DSP prior to the DAC is logical if you want those features.
   

 Sticking with the idea behind the info though, awhile back I helped develop some software that would link two cards internally.
  This was prior to the Prelude and other higher end gaming cards.  We used the software with cards such as the Audigy2/original X-Fi and higher end output cards like the original X-Meridian 7.1. to get all the features of the gaming cards but the higher output of the secondary card.
  Prior tp this you could link cards using S/Pdif but this lnk up was full surround sound.
   
  If you follow what I mean, we had one card for DSP game processing and one card for high end output connected internally through low latency routings.
  It was fast enough to play games..etc 
  You can get some pretty cool system if you think about routing and combining multiple devices.  The software is called VelBac and is still out there if you want to mess around with it.
  Have fun


----------



## obobskivich

Unlikely - X-RAM never provided a performance "gain" - it merely reduced the "hit" from enabling very complex EAX settings (EAX 5 benefited most). As far as PCIe somehow being the savior - also unlikely; the original PCIe era of soundcards simply use a translation chip and sit on their own PCI island, and I'm skeptical that new cards are somehow "fully native" - they're very likely just creating their own PCI island on-chip (it's cheaper than re-designing the entire ASIC) - I may be mistaken here. Regardless, 133MB/s is more than enough for any consumer audio application. There is no "bottleneck" here. 
   
  And (and yes Phos, I know this isn't you): can we please stop suggesting the Audigy SE? I think I hit that a few pages back, as to why it's a waste - I'd have to agree with ROB's points as well. Seriously, if you want a h/w accelerated board, you have to pay to play. 
  
  Quote: 





phos said:


> It'd be kinda tricky to actually benchmark the difference, though, considering that every PCIe X-fi has at least 16 MB so it'd be tough to isolate.  The benefit to frame rate is likely thanks to the system not having to wait for audio data to be transferred to the card for processing, so having more bandwidth should eliminate the bottleneck.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





robscix said:


> That's fine if you are new, just relaying the info to you that using a card as a processor for S/Pdif prior to a DAC is not a new idea and if you look many people use such systems for gaming or to allow other processing for music..movies..etc
> 
> Almost any card from CL, ASUS or Auzen will allow any effect processing done on the card to be sent out over the S/Pdif to an external DAC.  It is a feature that is there to be used in this manner and the idea has been mentioned countless times in this forum and others.


 
   
  Another noob question, had anyone done it in Windows 7 with a USB output eg. FiiO devices before? The DSP over S/PDIF I'd seen mentioned as that's just a single checkbox setting change, but as far as I could tell I hadn't seen anyone rerouting over USB. Anyways, I'm just glad I wasn't the first one to see the benefits of separating DSP from DAC


----------



## obobskivich

USB is not the same as S/PDIF - they're unrelated. You can't "output" from a soundcard into a USB device - that USB device is itself a soundcard. Now, using something like Virtual PatchBay may allow this to take place, but it seems a bit silly. There's not really that many tangible (read: measurable) "benefits" to "separating" things. 
  
  Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> Another noob question, had anyone done it in Windows 7 with a USB output eg. FiiO devices before? The DSP over S/PDIF I'd seen mentioned as that's just a single checkbox setting change, but as far as I could tell I hadn't seen anyone rerouting over USB. Anyways, I'm just glad I wasn't the first one to see the benefits of separating DSP from DAC


----------



## atmospheric

@sniperczar, I'm using USB for my DAC as of right now.  No TosLink on my motherboard.  From what I understand, if I'm simply using the sound-card for DSP effects and then using optical out to feed digital music filter to my DacMagic I should take no performance hit. And even if I do notice some performance hit, I can simply counteract that by switching between USB out and Optical out.  This might even be a more efficient way of switching settings because of the ergonomics of hitting a single button on the DacMagic to switch... which leads me to my question:  what card would you recommend for a DSP under $100?
   
  This is also makes me wonder if in the future it would be possible to skip buying something like the Smith Audio realizer and get a PC card which just applies a stock speaker like processing, similar to the SVS.  It wouldn't be as customized as the SVS, but it would be a very interesting product and could possibly be relatively inexpensive I think.


----------



## Phos

It's possible to set a USB audio device to "listen" to another audio device and duplicate its playback.  it's under sound -> recording tab -> properties on "What U Hear" (stereo mix for non creative cards) listen tab.  Just now I was able to play my X-fi's output over my HD audio device's coax port.  
   
  Edit: Wait, this doesn't seem to be lag free.  The levels for the two devices don't move in sync.


----------



## obobskivich

In your current set-up, the DACMagic is actually your "soundcard" - it's both audio controller and output device. If you provide a soundcard with S/PDIF output you would be replacing the DACMagic as the controller - switching between the two devices is more than just pushing the button the DACMagic; you will need to change settings within Windows (or whatever you use) as well. There will be no performance "hit" but you may actually realize gains depending on what you're doing - the soundcard may have more features than the DACMagic. Regarding the SVS comment - that's what CMSS-3D Headphone and Dolby Headphone already do; it's called HRTF. The SVS is able to adjust to an individual's head though, not a pre-defined HRTF model; so it's more accurate (it also supports head-tracking, if I'm not mistaken). Regarding what you should buy for $100 or so - there's many options from Creative and Asus - any of the hardware Xonars or Sound Blasters would be suitable, especially if you don't care about the analog output side.
  Quote: 





atmospheric said:


> @sniperczar, I'm using USB for my DAC as of right now.  No TosLink on my motherboard.  From what I understand, if I'm simply using the sound-card for DSP effects and then using optical out to feed digital music filter to my DacMagic I should take no performance hit. And even if I do notice some performance hit, I can simply counteract that by switching between USB out and Optical out.  This might even be a more efficient way of switching settings because of the ergonomics of hitting a single button on the DacMagic to switch... which leads me to my question:  what card would you recommend for a DSP under $100?
> 
> This is also makes me wonder if in the future it would be possible to skip buying something like the Smith Audio realizer and get a PC card which just applies a stock speaker like processing, similar to the SVS.  It wouldn't be as customized as the SVS, but it would be a very interesting product and could possibly be relatively inexpensive I think.


 
  Regarding the "re-routing" of digital audio ("listen") - this isn't the same as plugging the soundcard into an outboard DAC. USB audio does not work that way (and this is why I hate to see "USB DAC" bandied around). What you are, in effect, doing is monitoring device A through device B - you are not using B to somehow decode for A.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





atmospheric said:


> @sniperczar, I'm using USB for my DAC as of right now.  No TosLink on my motherboard.  From what I understand, if I'm simply using the sound-card for DSP effects and then using optical out to feed digital music filter to my DacMagic I should take no performance hit. And even if I do notice some performance hit, I can simply counteract that by switching between USB out and Optical out.  This might even be a more efficient way of switching settings because of the ergonomics of hitting a single button on the DacMagic to switch... which leads me to my question:  what card would you recommend for a DSP under $100?
> 
> This is also makes me wonder if in the future it would be possible to skip buying something like the Smith Audio realizer and get a PC card which just applies a stock speaker like processing, similar to the SVS.  It wouldn't be as customized as the SVS, but it would be a very interesting product and could possibly be relatively inexpensive I think.


 
  You're exactly correct. That's how it would work out if you want to add some DSP before your DAC in the audio chain. I managed to pick up a Fatal1ty Pro for $20 after rebate a while back, but any card on this list will work: http://support.creative.com/kb/showarticle.aspx?sid=87127 I expect you can pick up a clearance or used X-Fi for $50-75

 This is in effect the poor man's Smyth Realizer and plays nice with USB as well as Optical out. I don't expect it sounds anywhere near as impressive, but you can certainly tell the difference over stereo.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





phos said:


> It's possible to set a USB audio device to "listen" to another audio device and duplicate its playback.  it's under sound -> recording tab -> properties on "What U Hear" (stereo mix for non creative cards) listen tab.  Just now I was able to play my X-fi's output over my HD audio device's coax port.
> 
> Edit: Wait, this doesn't seem to be lag free.  The levels for the two devices don't move in sync.


 

 I can't seem to show two windows with both playback and recording showing, but I haven't noticed any perceptible lag in BF3 or watching BDs in VLC. I've done a few hours on each with my USB device. Haven't picked up an E17 yet though so I don't know if a DAC doing secondary processing would raise lag to the point of being noticeable. If it's there, it's small enough I didn't notice it and do lead times in VLC or MPC-HC, and I've had to do that many times before for my failed attempts at mkv muxing.


----------



## Phos

Ok, so running to another device via What U Hear adds lag.  I did a quick test by hooking up my speakers directly out of my X-fi and my headphones up to my NFB-5 receiving S/PIF over coax from my motherboard, and then clicked the windows volume level for a sound and the two pings are out of sync.  Switch my NFB-5 over to optical and I had to make sure both devices were actually playing audio as I could only hear one ping, no perceivable lag there.  
   
  Edit: To display level on screen I just click the little speaker icon to show the volume bar, when you have the Listen set up it shows a bar and level for each.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





phos said:


> Ok, so running to another device via What U Hear adds lag.  I did a quick test by hooking up my speakers directly out of my X-fi and my headphones up to my NFB-5 receiving S/PIF over coax from my motherboard, and then clicked the windows volume level for a sound and the two pings are out of sync.  Switch my NFB-5 over to optical and I had to make sure both devices were actually playing audio as I could only hear one ping, no perceivable lag there.
> 
> Edit: To display level on screen I just click the little speaker icon to show the volume bar, when you have the Listen set up it shows a bar and level for each.


 

 I see it now. If I've got the volume levels on the "What U Hear" at 50% they match up very closely, otherwise you can't measure. There's a very small amount of lag in VLC now that I'm watching again and really looking for it, but it's just barely on the edge of my perception.
   
  Edit: I just stared at a few songs with strong percussion with the visualizer up and my nose an inch from the screen. If there's lag there, it's within the range that it could be a placebo effect on my part. Bear in mind I'm using a plain-jane USB device and not a serious DAC.


----------



## bellsprout

Ok, so I installed my sound card drivers and set my speakers to 7.1 and turned on Dolby Headphone, and music sounds dumb now because they downmix it to 7.1 and then upmix it stereo with Dolby Headphone. Isn't there a way to get the DSP to not downmix a stereo signal with Dolby on?


----------



## obobskivich

Set your speaker output to headphones...
  
  Quote: 





bellsprout said:


> Ok, so I installed my sound card drivers and set my speakers to 7.1 and turned on Dolby Headphone, and music sounds dumb now because they downmix it to 7.1 and then upmix it stereo with Dolby Headphone. Isn't there a way to get the DSP to not downmix a stereo signal with Dolby on?


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





bellsprout said:


> Ok, so I installed my sound card drivers and set my speakers to 7.1 and turned on Dolby Headphone, and music sounds dumb now because they downmix it to 7.1 and then upmix it stereo with Dolby Headphone. Isn't there a way to get the DSP to not downmix a stereo signal with Dolby on?


 

 Bear in mind Windows speaker settings aren't always the same as your soundcard speaker settings. Can you tell us which settings you're changing in Windows vs. which ones are in your soundcard software? Also, I didn't see anywhere that you mentioned what brand soundcard you're using? Is it safe to assume it's a Xonar because you're using DH?


----------



## hamzatm

What API for sound does MW3 use?
   
  Dammit should i get a Xonar DX or an auzentech forte or what, and what are the advantages of each one?
   
  All i want is to hear positional audio in MW3 (and other FPS games) to the very best it can be!
   
  Someone please help


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





phos said:


> The idea behind this set up amuses me, you're basically buying a software application with a hardware key that also has some extraneous functions.
> 
> Also if Creative is to be believed they improved CMSS-3D with the X-fi line so I'd think the Audigy SE has an older version, and I can't help but wonder how long Creative is going to keep supporting a card that old, unless it uses the same drivers as the X-fi Xtreme audio, which is the same card with a new name and maybe different drivers.


 

 Creative might have done a little driver trickery so that vanilla X-Fi XtremeAudio cards don't work on the Audigy SE, but modified drivers by the community will.
   
  Still, I'm not as trusting of those cards that do it in software, instead looking at cards with the actual X-Fi APU.
   
  Also, that first sentence isn't too farfetched in some circles...Steel Beasts Pro PE, the professional version of X-Plane, and some other software titles actually have a USB key as part of their DRM. It needs to be plugged in at all times to run the software.
  
  Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> Unlikely - X-RAM never provided a performance "gain" - it merely reduced the "hit" from enabling very complex EAX settings (EAX 5 benefited most). As far as PCIe somehow being the savior - also unlikely; the original PCIe era of soundcards simply use a translation chip and sit on their own PCI island, and I'm skeptical that new cards are somehow "fully native" - they're very likely just creating their own PCI island on-chip (it's cheaper than re-designing the entire ASIC) - I may be mistaken here. Regardless, 133MB/s is more than enough for any consumer audio application. There is no "bottleneck" here.
> 
> And (and yes Phos, I know this isn't you): can we please stop suggesting the Audigy SE? I think I hit that a few pages back, as to why it's a waste - I'd have to agree with ROB's points as well. Seriously, if you want a h/w accelerated board, you have to pay to play.


 

 Well, I do know that all PCI X-Fi cards use the EMU20k1, while the PCIe X-Fi cards use the EMU20k2, which was released significantly later than the debut of the PCI-Express interface itself. Creative also said something about technical challenges with adapting the APU to the new interface, so it's possible that they didn't just settle for a bridge chip in the package. On the other hand, I do know that a lot of the C-Media chipsets floating about do use bridge chips.
   
  As for that part about the Audigy SE, see my point above about not trusting cards without the hardware DSP. If nothing else, I'm pretty sure that you can score non-XtremeAudio cards on eBay for low prices these days, even if it's just something like the XtremeMusic or XtremeGamer.


----------



## bellsprout

Yes, Xonar D2. I have headphones connected to the "Front"
   

 I'm changing the settings from the Xonar control panel, and it changes the Windows settings correspondingly.
   
  I really want to leave Dolby Headphone on for 5/7 channel audio but I want it to leave stereo well alone, so I can play games and listen to music at the same time. Is there any way to do this?
  
  Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> Bear in mind Windows speaker settings aren't always the same as your soundcard speaker settings. Can you tell us which settings you're changing in Windows vs. which ones are in your soundcard software? Also, I didn't see anywhere that you mentioned what brand soundcard you're using? Is it safe to assume it's a Xonar because you're using DH?


----------



## NamelessPFG

I don't think you can do that on a per-application basis, sadly. You'll have to keep switching DH on and off.
   
  Even then, the real complication here is that you want to play games AND listen to music with full clarity simultaneously. It would take some complicated mixing to pull that off (probably requiring an external mixer and two sound sources, one dedicated to games, one dedicated to music playback), and it's not something I thought about since I'm either playing games and listening to the game's music or just listening to music, not both.


----------



## bellsprout

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I don't think you can do that on a per-application basis, sadly. You'll have to keep switching DH on and off.
> 
> Even then, the real complication here is that you want to play games AND listen to music with full clarity simultaneously. It would take some complicated mixing to pull that off (probably requiring an external mixer and two sound sources, one dedicated to games, one dedicated to music playback), and it's not something I thought about since I'm either playing games and listening to the game's music or just listening to music, not both.


 

 what if I use a Foobar for music? You can add DSP effects to Foobar using a plugin so I assume there would be a plugin to bypass the DSP too isn't there?


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *bellsprout* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I really want to leave Dolby Headphone on for 5/7 channel audio but I want it to leave stereo well alone, so I can play games and listen to music at the same time. Is there any way to do this?


 

 If you're using my port DSP to USB DAC trick just specify the audio player use the DAC directly while the game follows the default (the Xonar) adding DSP and then ports over to the DAC.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





bellsprout said:


> what if I use a Foobar for music? You can add DSP effects to Foobar using a plugin so I assume there would be a plugin to bypass the DSP too isn't there?


 

 That's what ASIO and WASAPI exclusive mode are for in the first place: to make sure that the source doesn't add any undesirable colorations. At least on an X-Fi, the typical ASIO + bit-matched playback setup for music listening shuts off a lot of the DSP features to begin with.
   
  The only solution I can think of is a separate sound device dedicated to foobar2000 playback through ASIO or WASAPI, while your primary sound card handles game audio, and then mixing the two together somehow, either through complicated software trickery or a hardware mixer.


----------



## hamzatm

xonar drivers have ASIO n stuff built in


----------



## Phos

Man, I had forgotten how many audio options Painkiller has.  Flip on Alchemy to see how absurd it gets.  Do you want EAX?  You can pick 3,2, or 1.  You can use A3D, Software or hardware DirectSound3D, DirectSound light HRTF or full HRTF (something I didn't even know existed), Miles audio, and a few others that I don't even recognize.  
   
  Also, here's a somewhat bizarre tidbit:  "Evil Genius", a game played from a perspective similar to an RTS, seems to be able to encode both Dolby and DTS audio.  I never tried it personally but it has both option as speaker configurations under its audio tab.


----------



## obobskivich

Two sources really is needed here - you don't need an outboard mixer though, if you're tricky with it. See my post a few pages about about the two PCI configuration - as long as the "source" is doing the DH processing, and the "sink" is playing the music, you'll sidestep the mess. Alternately, if you like the "all equal before God" approach, a studio control center will do a good job.
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I don't think you can do that on a per-application basis, sadly. You'll have to keep switching DH on and off.
> 
> Even then, the real complication here is that you want to play games AND listen to music with full clarity simultaneously. It would take some complicated mixing to pull that off (probably requiring an external mixer and two sound sources, one dedicated to games, one dedicated to music playback), and it's not something I thought about since I'm either playing games and listening to the game's music or just listening to music, not both.


 


   
  Doesn't quite work that way. Foobar's DSP toys are applied in software, above the audio card's perspective. Contrast that to things like Dolby Headphone, which are done either in the drivers or in hardware, at the audio card's perspective - you can't have it selectively play with the signal chain like that. It doesn't differentiate between items that all come from the wave table. ASIO would work, but your games won't use ASIO. And it will defeat Dolby Headphone. The "USB DAC trick" (again, USB audio doesn't work this way, you're simply monitoring the output mix of another device; not "sending" from one to another - it also introduces latency, as you were told) won't help either, because again, you're just monitoring the output mix. Also remember that Windows 7 does not natively allow you to output to multiple audio devices at once; this is by design and Microsoft ardently stands behind this decision (they're quite rude about it on the TechNet forums too - took'em a while to even admit they forced this configuration). Yes there are some applications that can sidestep this, but usually they require ASIO or similar conditions (which your "USB DAC" won't support - an example of a device that CAN sidestep this (to some degree) is the Sony Altus) - there's a lot of issues with this scheme based on how Windows itself handles audio. In other words, the easiest solution here is multiple hardware sources feeding into a common playback sink. If you feel like spending the time, you can entirely make this work from one host machine, but Windows 7 does not make it easy (on Windows XP it'd literally be as simple as plugging in another soundcard and hitting GO). 
   
  To give you an example (since my current system actually can do what you're describing), I have the X-Fi fed into the headphone amplifiers, and the Altus system feeds my S-AIR receiver (which is not connected to anything at my workstation, but I could easily move it) - the Altus system will constantly stream music (it completely bypasses any/all media players, and is controlled by the receiver) while the X-Fi is free to do whatever it wants. To put both of those together into my headphones would require a simple two channel mixer (What I actually do with the setup is make my music library available to my home theater, without giving anything up on the computer). This scheme replaced three computers that shared a DAC and some other components and accomplished roughly the same thing (in a much more "pain-in-the-neck-to-use" way). 
  
  Quote: 





bellsprout said:


> what if I use a Foobar for music? You can add DSP effects to Foobar using a plugin so I assume there would be a plugin to bypass the DSP too isn't there?


----------



## bellsprout

Regarding the "what u hear" latency, Virtual Audio Cable claims that it does "What u hear" without the latency. Worth trying out?


----------



## obobskivich

It still won't bypass the DSP processing - you're still going to feed everything back into the same output device which will still be applying Dolby Headphone, so I don't see how it would help. Is it really that much of a problem to switch Dolby Headphone off when you aren't gaming? 
  Quote: 





bellsprout said:


> Regarding the "what u hear" latency, Virtual Audio Cable claims that it does "What u hear" without the latency. Worth trying out?


----------



## bellsprout

oh no, this is reduce the latency of using a USB DAC, which I want to do anyway.
  
  Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> It still won't bypass the DSP processing - you're still going to feed everything back into the same output device which will still be applying Dolby Headphone, so I don't see how it would help. Is it really that much of a problem to switch Dolby Headphone off when you aren't gaming?


 
   
  but having done this, I'll
   
  Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> If you're using my port DSP to USB DAC trick just specify the audio player use the DAC directly while the game follows the default (the Xonar) adding DSP and then ports over to the DAC.


 

  
  except using VAC instead of Stereo/mix and roberts your fathers brother amirite?


----------



## obobskivich

What are you attempting to do overall? You CAN NOT have a sound card actually "feed" a "USB DAC" (there is no such thing - it's just a sound card that interfaces via USB instead of PCI or PCI Express) - if you want an outboard DAC, get one that uses S/PDIF. There absolutely no benefit whatsoever to having a USB audio controller if you've already got a fancy one inside your PC. 
   
  And no, you won't just set foobar to output to the DAC and so on - it doesn't work that way. Again, you're simply meaning to monitor one audio controller (in software) with another, I'm skeptical all of the processing will even loop with it, and if it does, that's where your latency comes from. This all seems needlessly complicated, hence why I'm asking what you want to do overall.
   
  Quote: 





bellsprout said:


> oh no, this is reduce the latency of using a USB DAC, which I want to do anyway.
> 
> but having done this, I'll set foobar to output to the DAC and pipe the sound card output through VAC to the DAC and roberts your fathers mother amirite?


----------



## Phos

He has a DAC magic that does S/PDIF, he just wants a way to play music clearly with Dolby Headphone playing.  
  Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> And no, you won't just set foobar to output to the DAC and so on - it doesn't work that way. Again, you're simply meaning to monitor one audio controller (in software) with another, I'm skeptical all of the processing will even loop with it, and if it does, that's where your latency comes from. This all seems needlessly complicated, hence why I'm asking what you want to do overall.


 

 I just did a test with the basic "What U Hear" method and Rightmark3D with my X-fi and I can confirm that the DSP were applied.  I haven't done any trials for latency with the program itself though.  Latency using the What U Hear method was noticeable.  
   
   It would be interesting if this turned out to be a way to get a digital Dolby Headpone signal out of the more stubborn Xonars.


----------



## bellsprout

What's the easiest way to test latency?


----------



## SniperCzar

I'm wondering how you're testing latency too, mine is barely noticeable when I'm watching a movie and practically nonexistent when I'm in game (which is pretty much the only time when I actually use the DSP)

 As for "feeding" or "porting" to a USB device, the "What U Hear" method allows you to capture and redirect the digitally processed audio on the card before it gets converted to analog, thus giving you the same DSP effect but better digital to analog conversion via the superior DAC on the USB device. There's a benefit there, it's not just something superfluous that adds lag.
   
  What I think bellsprout is trying to do is run his music straight out to his DAC while running the game audio to the DSP to get virtual surround, *then *the DAC for final output. It's a slightly complicated setup for sure, but I think there's a way to make it work without using yet another piece of hardware.

 What I mean bellsprout is if there's a way to tell the music player to use the USB device even though the game needs the device set to the soundcard inside your computer to get the virtual surround, then it would work. Although on second thought if you can tell either the game or the music player what soundcard to use, then it would work.

 Sorry if I'm not being clear enough with my explanation


----------



## bellsprout

I'm fairly sure that would work and that's what I'll do if I go down that path.
   
  However I just tested the latency by plugging my headphones into my mobo and listening to that as a recording device and setting default outut to my speakers and I played some pulses and noticed a good 1-200ms lag from what I can estimate. this is not a problem for music, but it's could be a dealbreaker for games (well I'm aussie so I'm used to playing with 200ms+ lag whatever game i play, but still).


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





bellsprout said:


> I'm fairly sure that would work and that's what I'll do if I go down that path.
> 
> However I just tested the latency by plugging my headphones into my mobo and listening to that as a recording device and setting default outut to my speakers and I played some pulses and noticed a good 1-200ms lag from what I can estimate. this is not a problem for music, but it's could be a dealbreaker for games (well I'm aussie so I'm used to playing with 200ms+ lag whatever game i play, but still).


 
   
  I'll have to do a test this afternoon with Audacity recording from my mic, and a pulse going out the speaker over optical and my headphones over USB. That might give me some hard data...


----------



## torpedoPhil

Hey,
  I'm a total in on this topic and I just wanted to ask again, as I asked a few days ago and I'm still not sure.
   
  I ordered the DT 770 Pro (both Ohm versions because I couldnt test them in a store; I'll just send one back) online and I tested the Astro Mixamp Pro today.
  The Dolby Headphone doesn't work if I just use them via USB on my Laptop.
  I still have a Dolby Headphone external soundcard from my current headset ( http://gamingweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/plantronics-gamecom-777-usb-headset.jpg ) and now I'm wondering if I should just use the DT 770 Pro with this soundcard for games?
  But I'm still looking for the best sollution. I want excellent stereo sound for music and surround sound for gaming (mainly fps).
   
  What devices should I get?
  I thought of an headphone amp for music and just use the Plantronics ext. soundcard that I have for gaming.
  Or is there a better sollution, maybe all-in-one?
   
  Thanks in advance


----------



## Phos

Quote:


bellsprout said:


> What's the easiest way to test latency?


 
  I connect speakers to my sound card's analog out and have them playing at the same time as whatever I'm comparing it to.  With open headphones you should only hear the sound once, if you hear double there's lag.  This is corroborated by the windows volume slider, when you have listen set up it shows both levels and they move out of sync.  When I used  rightmark3D the audio source lagged noticeably behind my mouse movements.


----------



## obobskivich

This is simply not true. Again, you're monitoring the device's output, not using it as a conventional source; you're feeding one audio controller into another - it's the same thing as feeding a soundcard into another soundcard, because that's all the USB box is. AND just because a device is labeled USB does not mean it's magically superior in terms of specs or SQ. And finally, any of the jitter reduction/noise rejection/magic claimed for why USB is somehow better simply by virtue of existing goes right out the window - if we're talking about perceptable latency that's well over 1ms (average human response time: 250ms, you can perceive shorter timespans but not 1ms) which is extreme in terms of digital audio. Again, just feed into a device that takes S/PDIF in. In that case you legitimately *are* bypassing the onboard DtoA stages on whatever soundcard (which are still almost certainly transparent so it's not like spending extra money is helping you here).
   
  In terms of "tell the game to use X and the media player to use Y" - as I've been saying, Windows 7 doesn't let you do that. If you use something like ASIO to accomplish this, that application will device-mode control over the controller it's using; you can't stack things up like that unless all applications can use ASIO. There is no advantage here aside from being buzzword compliant to say you're using USB. 
   
  Anyways, this is the kind of device you want: http://www.presonus.com/products/Detail.aspx?ProductId=1 (and yes cheaper versions exist, that one just has a lot of nice features). 
   
  So no, there's no benefit. If you disagree, put up some numbers. 
  Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> As for "feeding" or "porting" to a USB device, the "What U Hear" method allows you to capture and redirect the digitally processed audio on the card before it gets converted to analog, thus giving you the same DSP effect but better digital to analog conversion via the superior DAC on the USB device. There's a benefit there, it's not just something superfluous that adds lag.


----------



## ninjikiran

NEVER EVER test input lag or sound lag.  NEVER, rule of the golden thumb.  If you dont notice it assume it doesn't exist otherwise your going to drive yourself NUTS.  A Noticeable sound lag will be in the lips of someone talking~ if it gets that bad and you can see that then you have real lag.


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> This is simply not true. Again, you're monitoring the device's output, not using it as a conventional source; you're feeding one audio controller into another - it's the same thing as feeding a soundcard into another soundcard, because that's all the USB box is. AND just because a device is labeled USB does not mean it's magically superior in terms of specs or SQ. And finally, any of the jitter reduction/noise rejection/magic claimed for why USB is somehow better simply by virtue of existing goes right out the window - if we're talking about perceptable latency that's well over 1ms (average human response time: 250ms, you can perceive shorter timespans but not 1ms) which is extreme in terms of digital audio. Again, just feed into a device that takes S/PDIF in. In that case you legitimately *are* bypassing the onboard DtoA stages on whatever soundcard (which are still almost certainly transparent so it's not like spending extra money is helping you here).
> 
> In terms of "tell the game to use X and the media player to use Y" - as I've been saying, Windows 7 doesn't let you do that. If you use something like ASIO to accomplish this, that application will device-mode control over the controller it's using; you can't stack things up like that unless all applications can use ASIO. There is no advantage here aside from being buzzword compliant to say you're using USB.
> 
> ...


 

 I've no idea why you think we're putting USB audio devices on a pedestal here, the only reason I'd do this is if I got a DAC without S/PDIF.
   
  And for me, audio from games and audio from foobar go to different devices.  Windows 7 doesn't do this but programs can if they have output settings.


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> NEVER EVER test input lag or sound lag.  NEVER, rule of the golden thumb.  If you dont notice it assume it doesn't exist otherwise your going to drive yourself NUTS.  A Noticeable sound lag will be in the lips of someone talking~ if it gets that bad and you can see that then you have real lag.


 

 This sort of thinking is what let display manufactures get away with lag in the first place.


----------



## obobskivich

USB is usually on a pedestal - it's heralded as "higher quality" (that statement was actually made in response to a post earlier in this thread!) among other magical things. And this comment was not in response to your posts either. What's the point of a DAC without S/PDIF; what else will it accept in? I2S? DSD?
   
  And yes, with some applications you can route audio differently - but it isn't conventionally part of Windows 7 (I would hope that my posting does not imply anything to be set in stone) and Windows actively works to inhibit this (whereas Windows XP you could very easily just select an application, device, whatever, and pick how you wanted the audio to route). 
   
  My overall point is that a "USB DAC" (aside from not existing), cannot be a sink for an audiocard or similar; it can monitor the audiocard's mix though. That's very different. It isn't some revolutionary new feature either.
  Quote: 





phos said:


> I've no idea why you think we're putting USB audio devices on a pedestal here, the only reason I'd do this is if I got a DAC without S/PDIF.
> 
> And for me, audio from games and audio from foobar go to different devices.  Windows 7 doesn't do this but programs can if they have output settings.


 


   
  They haven't "gotten away" with anything at any place - it's a simple reality of the technology. There is no conspiracy. When you have to stack a ton of post-processing into the chain for as cheaply as possible, of course it's going to have a cost. If you don't like the reality of a given technology, buy something else - CRT displays are generally free from input latency. I fully agree with the point about ignoring it as a problem unless it's actually a problem; if you spend time obsessing over issues that are outside of conventional perception you'll put a lot of time into trying to fix something that ultimately doesn't matter (it's like worrying about audible artefacts 80 dB below the signal; you won't hear them, but there's plenty of people who are up in arms to "fix" it). The comments regarding audio delay being a problem are based on posts in this thread mentioning noticed delay; that's very much a problem. Again, I'm very confused as to why we "need" to hook up an external device so badly, and why (since we need this so badly) we cannot apparently buy the correct device in the first place. 
  
  Quote: 





phos said:


> This sort of thinking is what let display manufactures get away with lag in the first place.


----------



## Phos

Well, there's the upcoming ODAC (diy design from NwAvGuy), which will probably only have USB.  Not sure why, it sounds like getting 24/96 makes it more complicated and what are you going to connect to it that doesn't have S/PDIF?  If I can duplicate audio to USB for games without latency, that's nice, but I doubt I could tell the difference between that and just using analog right from my X-fi.  
   
  And one person's idea of perceptible latency is not always the same as another person's.


----------



## obobskivich

USB is popular, and my theory is basically that it's popular because it appeals to laptop users (which are in a majority when you're targeting a younger demo), and it doesn't require users to open up the scary old computer. 24/96 certainly makes it more complicated, because you have to use more exotic solutions; it isn't impossible by any means, but it's not as simple as grabbing any one of a dozen quality 16/44.1 USB streaming audio devices off the shelf and using the kernel-mode drivers that come with Windows or OS X. Oh, and as you get more complex in what you want out of your USB solution, you increase latency substantially (it's the nature of the interface) - there's a reason professional grade equipment avoids it like the plague (and no, the E-MU 0404 is not professional grade). 
   
  Regarding the whole "idea of perceptible latency" - I would agree with reservations; there are averages and constants within perception. That said, it's hard to tell you that you aren't "feeling" whatever you "feel" about something, because that's your perception (if that sentence makes sense). In other words, if you're convinced something is or is not, it's hard to "unsell" you. When you get into the realm of hundreds of ms it will almost universally be perceptible though, and when you're talking a few ms or fractions of ms (into the ns range), it will almost universally be imperceptible. And yes I'm speaking in generalities. 
  
  Quote: 





phos said:


> Well, there's the upcoming ODAC (diy design from NwAvGuy), which will probably only have USB.  Not sure why, it sounds like getting 24/96 makes it more complicated and what are you going to connect to it that doesn't have S/PDIF?  If I can duplicate audio to USB for games without latency, that's nice, but I doubt I could tell the difference between that and just using analog right from my X-fi.
> 
> And one person's idea of perceptible latency is not always the same as another person's.


----------



## ninjikiran

Quote: 





phos said:


> This sort of thinking is what let display manufactures get away with lag in the first place.


 

  
  That sort of thinking destroys wallets or forces you down the path of inferior TN panels.
   
  As a consumer if you don't notice it than don't bother. Why go nuts over something that never bothered in the first place?


----------



## dfwallace

I'm trying to maximize the sound quality in my PC gaming with my son. Our home-built system-
   
  Asus P8P67 MB
  Intel i7 2600-k cpu
  8 gb Corsair Vengeance mem
  AMD Radeon Sapphire 5870 vid card
  Intel SSD
  Corsair 850HX power supply
  Asus Xonar Essence ST audio card
  Pair of M-Audio AV-40'S (2.0) speakers
  Sennheiser PC360 headset
   
  When the wife is home, we game using the headset. When she is not home we use the speakers. When playing 'FPS' style games like 'Battlefield 3' with the headset, I don't feel we're getting the sound localization that we should be. The headset plugs into the souncard.  
   
  Is there a guide somewhere that would help us to set up this rig to optimize it's sound capabilities?
   
  Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## pooley

What settings do you use in the Xonar Audio Center?
   
  This is what I have in my Xonar centre when playing BF3 using Asus drivers.

 Audio channels= 8
 Analogue out= headphone
 5.1 Virtual Speaker Shifter= ticked
 HP advanced setting = depends on HP's, Change this according to your headphone Ohm rating
 Dolby headphone= ticked and set to DH1 or DH2/DH3 if you prefer
 Effect Equalizer is set on Bass
   
  In the BF3 audio setting I have it set to headphones and enhanced stereo mode is on
   
  Hope this helps.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> That sort of thinking destroys wallets or forces you down the path of inferior TN panels.
> 
> As a consumer if you don't notice it than don't bother. Why go nuts over something that never bothered in the first place?


 
   
  Or CRTs.  No reasonably priced LCD panels that aren't in a laptop have decent pixel density anyway.  Wake me when there's a 2048x1536 LCD monitor for less than an O2 rig....
   
  Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> Regarding the whole "idea of perceptible latency" - I would agree with reservations; there are averages and constants within perception. That said, it's hard to tell you that you aren't "feeling" whatever you "feel" about something, because that's your perception (if that sentence makes sense). In other words, if you're convinced something is or is not, it's hard to "unsell" you. When you get into the realm of hundreds of ms it will almost universally be perceptible though, and when you're talking a few ms or fractions of ms (into the ns range), it will almost universally be imperceptible. And yes I'm speaking in generalities.


 

 Some video games require frame accurate timing and I like to sync things up that well when I edit music videos.  I don't think its much of an issue with normal movies though.


----------



## dfwallace

Thanks. I'll try that setup.
   
  In BF3, my sound localization/recognition is better with my 2.0 M-Audio AV40 speakers than it is with my Sennheiser PC360 headset. Shouldn't that be the other way around?


----------



## obobskivich

2048x1536 LCDs are for diagnostic imaging; they don't target consumers. That "diagnostic imaging" is what keeps the price up there (and the performance fairly low for multimedia applications) - not some sort of magical technology. You can get a 2560x1600 display for a reasonable price these days (and the Apple Cinema HD is not a good example here - it's a dinosaur). There's other decent options as well; my Samsung has a pixel pitch of around .230mm and was under $500 (I have no idea what your budget is like; I assume if you're doing professional videography it's probably pretty high though) - if you need something that can be calibrated more "perfectly" I would look at Barco (more or less exclusively; NEC is always overpriced, so unless the DreamColor is still in production, Barco is basically "it"). 
   
  I'm not trying to say that one is universally better than the other, CRTs do have some advantages including lower input latency and better black level rendering, but I've got a problem with broad-sweeping generalizations on either side. LCDs aren't the hell they were ten years ago.
   
  I'm not trying to goad a fight, but I agree with ninjikiran here - this seems like much ado about nothing. "Frame accurate" seems about as problematic as "bit perfect" - it's pointless to even consider if you aren't supplying an external clock. 
  
  Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> Or CRTs.  No reasonably priced LCD panels that aren't in a laptop have decent pixel density anyway.  Wake me when there's a 2048x1536 LCD monitor for less than an O2 rig....
> 
> 
> Some video games require frame accurate timing and I like to sync things up that well when I edit music videos.  I don't think its much of an issue with normal movies though.


 

 dfwallace,
   
  Sounds like a settings problem. You can't just plug the headset in and leave everything setup for surround sound - you have to let the computer know that things are changing. pooley explained what to do (as an aside, "Ohm rating" is actually called "nominal impedance").


----------



## maverickronin

I know its not magic, they just don't make them for that market so they're super expensive.  Also, video editing is just a hobby so I have almost no budget to speak of.  I don't really need it either since I got both my current CRTs for free.  I also know that there are even LCDs available in the resolutions I'd need to not give up any pixels.  The problem is that they're just too damn big.  I don't want a 30" 16:10 screen until I can get it in 5120x3200 or something so I only need one.  A 24" 16:10 is a big as I can fit 2 of on my desk and I would want anything bigger anyway since I'd be looking back and forth too much.
   
  Its hardly exhaustive but Newegg current has 6 monitors in either 2048x1536 and 2560x1600.  Four of them are 30".  Way too big.  I'm not shopping for a TV.  Two of them are 21".  Perfect.  Except that they're NEC diagnostic monitors and a pair of either would nearly buy me a 009 rig.


----------



## obobskivich

Barco has a 30" that does a fairly high resolution, something like 8 or 9MP; sure the price is absolutely ridiculous though (their 56" is silly expensive, and the T220 was silly expensive). 
   
  Having lived with a 30" monitor for over a year, there really isn't that much "back and forth" - and yes I came from dual CRT monitors (what size CRTs do you have now, just out of curiosity?) - ended up going back to dual monitors (via a quad setup), mostly due to power usage concerns (the 30" I had would pull 200W during normal operation, and just like the TV displays at most stores, it felt like a sunlamp after a few hours; my new monitors use about 70W combined). I'm really been enjoying this Samsung (which is sadly out of production, or I'd have more) - finer pitch than the 30" and less power with nearly identical visual quality, and it's a TN panel to boot! (Yes, TN panels are capable of very good quality while being fast; 8-bit too). As far as the NEC monitors - it's not *just* the diagnostic tag, it's that they're NEC too; NEC displays are always abhorrently overpriced for absolutely no good reason. If you're gonna spend a mountain of cash, Barco, HP, Dell, Eizo-Nanao, LaCie (at least they used to be), and Samsung are generally going to get you the same display for half (or better) the price.  
   
  Honestly the silly small pixel pitch isn't worth it in my opinion - it's a all a matter of distance; if you're right on top of the device then you want higher density. Having seen some of the stupid-dense LCDs and CRTs over the years, I prefer LCDs in that regard, but both are just obnoxious for desktop usage. I'm not going to tell you that "anything smaller than .300mm is too small" but am going to say that .100mm and similar displays are just a nightmare for most things (and with games or video you don't really notice either way until the content gets so up-scaled that it blocks).
   
  Just for some ridiculous monitors to drool over:
  http://www.barco.com/en/product/1909
  http://www.barco.com/en/product/2146
  http://www.barco.com/en/product/1831
  http://h20331.www2.hp.com/Hpsub/cache/596803-0-0-225-121.html
   
  Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> I know its not magic, they just don't make them for that market so they're super expensive.  Also, video editing is just a hobby so I have almost no budget to speak of.  I don't really need it either since I got both my current CRTs for free.  I also know that there are even LCDs available in the resolutions I'd need to not give up any pixels.  The problem is that they're just too damn big.  I don't want a 30" 16:10 screen until I can get it in 5120x3200 or something so I only need one.  A 24" 16:10 is a big as I can fit 2 of on my desk and I would want anything bigger anyway since I'd be looking back and forth too much.
> 
> Its hardly exhaustive but Newegg current has 6 monitors in either 2048x1536 and 2560x1600.  Four of them are 30".  Way too big.  I'm not shopping for a TV.  Two of them are 21".  Perfect.  Except that they're NEC diagnostic monitors and a pair of either would nearly buy me a 009 rig.


----------



## Phos

On the display front I'm just hoping that consumer level OLED displays will deliver on their potential and we don't have another SED fiasco.  
   
  So out of curiosity I hooked up a male to male 3.5 cable up to the speaker output of my X-Fi and it measured 1.9 V RMS to my multimeter, so it seems to be a true line out.  Guess I just won't bother fussing about sending game audio from my X-fi over USB if I switch to an ODAC.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> Barco has a 30" that does a fairly high resolution, something like 8 or 9MP; sure the price is absolutely ridiculous though (their 56" is silly expensive, and the T220 was silly expensive).
> 
> Having lived with a 30" monitor for over a year, there really isn't that much "back and forth" - and yes I came from dual CRT monitors (what size CRTs do you have now, just out of curiosity?) - ended up going back to dual monitors (via a quad setup), mostly due to power usage concerns (the 30" I had would pull 200W during normal operation, and just like the TV displays at most stores, it felt like a sunlamp after a few hours; my new monitors use about 70W combined). I'm really been enjoying this Samsung (which is sadly out of production, or I'd have more) - finer pitch than the 30" and less power with nearly identical visual quality, and it's a TN panel to boot! (Yes, TN panels are capable of very good quality while being fast; 8-bit too). As far as the NEC monitors - it's not *just* the diagnostic tag, it's that they're NEC too; NEC displays are always abhorrently overpriced for absolutely no good reason. If you're gonna spend a mountain of cash, Barco, HP, Dell, Eizo-Nanao, LaCie (at least they used to be), and Samsung are generally going to get you the same display for half (or better) the price.


 

 One 30" would be fine. Its just AFIK I'd need two in order to not give up any pixels and two 30" inch displays would probably give me lots of looking back and forth.
   
  My CRTs are both 20" viewable, one at 1920x1440 and the other at 2048x1536.  I sit pretty much right on top of them and like it that way.  I'd have to move to a new house or something in order to get enough space for a bigger desk that would fit larger screens and let me sit far enough back so I wouldn't have to crank my neck like I was siting in first row of a theater.
   
  Now's probably a good time to mention that I don't even like wide screen monitors anyway and that's just about all the reasonably priced brands make anymore.  I don't want a $DEITY-damned TV


----------



## Bogatyr

Question. I plan to get AKH Q701 + Objective O2 amp. Would these 2 work together well coming out of my Xonar DG? Do I need a DAC or perhaps another amp? Thanks in advance.


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## Phos

No that should be fine.


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## kingice10

Subscribed


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## obobskivich

So you've got about 5.9 MP between those displays, a conventional 1600p monitor is around 4.1 MP. A common multi-head solution with 30" monitors is to run a UXGA 20" in portrait mode to the side; takes you to 6MP with two displays (just to give you an idea of what could work); two 30" monitors would be substantially larger (I've seen setups with as many as three at once; they're not "fun" to use - you have to go horizontal at some point or they go outside of your FOV). ppi wise you'd give up some, but not enough that you'll see dots at the screen. I entirely do not advocate buying new equipment when you have something that works (it's just wasteful), but I'm telling you this solely as food for thought (unfortunately all of the Trinitrons will die, and then we'll having nothing but foul clones with their awful geometry issues, and LCDs).
   
  As far as the transition to WS; you're dead-on there - it's cheaper to cut one aspect ratio than three or four, so 16:9 basically rules the day (and I don't even consider 16:9 suitable for use as TV - it's a person "in-between" for 2.35:1 and 4:3 (and neither can display properly on it; the fact that we're now seeing television produced for 16:9 just makes things even worse)). Personally, and I know exactly where you're coming from, I've liked the transition to widescreen for gaming, but not a whole lot else (it's just whitespace for most software applications). And with gaming I do know that you can have basically any AR you want, as long as you can plug in the rendering mode (really weird stuff like 4:1 or 9:16 for example). If we could've just left well enough alone a good ten years ago, when fidelity was what people were starting to care about, not numbers on a box...oh well, I digress.
   
  To phos:
  That sounds about right; do realize that some consumer soundcards have stupidly high output levels (the X-Fi Prelude is a good example, the spec is +5V at 100% - I don't know if it actually gets to +5V, but I know that at 100% it will cause any amplifier or preamplifier to clip). I'd be more worried about the level being too hot than too low, at least with modern equipment, which tends to be fairly sensitive. 
   
   
   
  Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> One 30" would be fine. Its just AFIK I'd need two in order to not give up any pixels and two 30" inch displays would probably give me lots of looking back and forth.
> 
> My CRTs are both 20" viewable, one at 1920x1440 and the other at 2048x1536.  I sit pretty much right on top of them and like it that way.  I'd have to move to a new house or something in order to get enough space for a bigger desk that would fit larger screens and let me sit far enough back so I wouldn't have to crank my neck like I was siting in first row of a theater.
> 
> Now's probably a good time to mention that I don't even like wide screen monitors anyway and that's just about all the reasonably priced brands make anymore.  I don't want a $DEITY-damned TV


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> So you've got about 5.9 MP between those displays, a conventional 1600p monitor is around 4.1 MP. A common multi-head solution with 30" monitors is to run a UXGA 20" in portrait mode to the side; takes you to 6MP with two displays (just to give you an idea of what could work); two 30" monitors would be substantially larger (I've seen setups with as many as three at once; they're not "fun" to use - you have to go horizontal at some point or they go outside of your FOV). ppi wise you'd give up some, but not enough that you'll see dots at the screen. I entirely do not advocate buying new equipment when you have something that works (it's just wasteful), but I'm telling you this solely as food for thought (unfortunately all of the Trinitrons will die, and then we'll having nothing but foul clones with their awful geometry issues, and LCDs).


 

  Basically I'm just going to have to hope that the prices on what I'd like come down before I actually need to buy it.  I don't think that adding something smaller to the 30" would work too well. for me.  I don't have the space for that, but even if I did if I was facing the center of the 30" most of the second one would probably be out of my FOV.  Maybe not though since I'd be further away from it.  One unusual thing I've considered is making DIY monitors with extra dense laptop panels plus the appropriate signal conversion and driver hardware.  Last time I checked into that it was smaller but not any cheaper.
   
  That 30" does Barco look nice.  I've got a feeling its slower than molasses uphill in January though.
   
  Mostly I just like to complain about this topic because I know its going to cost me a ton of money at some time in the future...


----------



## obobskivich

Oh I have no doubt that Barco is probably 10ms or worse. DIY monitors are interesting as well; dreadfully expensive though (and if you've ever taken apart and rebuilt an LCD, it's not a "fun" experience - I'd rank it up there with going to court and throwing up). I hear you on the "like to complain about the topic" - I was forced to switch for my desktop computer (I simply cannot use the CRTs I have, they do not fit); but you'll have to pry my WEGA from my cold, dead, kung-fu grip. The first LCD I've seen that's even considerable is a Sony (big surprise) XBR960 - the amount of DSP power in that TV probably shames the space shuttle, and it's both a testament to the Trinitron FD that it takes that much "extra" to get in the ring with it, and a shame to LCD technology...that it takes that much "extra" to get in the ring with it.
  Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> Basically I'm just going to have to hope that the prices on what I'd like come down before I actually need to buy it.  I don't think that adding something smaller to the 30" would work too well. for me.  I don't have the space for that, but even if I did if I was facing the center of the 30" most of the second one would probably be out of my FOV.  Maybe not though since I'd be further away from it.  One unusual thing I've considered is making DIY monitors with extra dense laptop panels plus the appropriate signal conversion and driver hardware.  Last time I checked into that it was smaller but not any cheaper.
> 
> That 30" does Barco look nice.  I've got a feeling its slower than molasses uphill in January though.
> 
> Mostly I just like to complain about this topic because I know its going to cost me a ton of money at some time in the future...


----------



## maverickronin

Those silly DSPs are another issue.  The ones on my TV even  make me sick to my stomach if I don't turn them off.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  After all the problems I already mentioned I need to make sure the monitor can also disable all that crap and give me a picture without any latency.  I suppose its fortunate that I don't care too much about color gamut or having a 179.999999 degree viewing angle so that what I want might actually exist.  Mostly I just want high resolution, high pixel density, fast response, and low input lag.


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## obobskivich

Oh I agree, but it can't even approach drawing black if it isn't constantly adjusting the backlight relative to both the input and ambient lighting (it was a segmented LED backlight), and the MI makes animation look "fluid enough" (it always cracks me up though, sometimes I'll be watching tape (yes I still have tapes!) on the WEGA and I'll notice "wow, this looks fluid, this must be what MI is trying to do!"). And yeah, the trade-off (Aside from massive cost and power demand) is that you're probably talking about input latency on the order of many hundreds of ms. And don't even get me started on projectors...
   

  
  Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> Those silly DSPs are another issue.  The ones on my TV even  make me sick to my stomach if I don't turn them off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SniperCzar

Sometimes I miss my days of running Premiere Pro on quad 20" CRTs at 2048x1536... and then I remember how little desk space I had left. I think I did the math one time and came up with ~10x the pixels of an "HD" display.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> Oh I agree, but it can't even approach drawing black if it isn't constantly adjusting the backlight relative to both the input and ambient lighting (it was a segmented LED backlight), and the MI makes animation look "fluid enough" (it always cracks me up though, sometimes I'll be watching tape (yes I still have tapes!) on the WEGA and I'll notice "wow, this looks fluid, this must be what MI is trying to do!"). And yeah, the trade-off (Aside from massive cost and power demand) is that you're probably talking about input latency on the order of many hundreds of ms. And don't even get me started on projectors...


 

 I'll take the pretend black over the latency if I have to.  I can also do all the extra post processing I want on my PC since that's my main source, even for my TV.  The cable is only for the news and the History Channel.  My Vizio TV (3rd monitor but on the other side of the room and left out of the earlier discussion) probably doesn't have very advanced DSPs and there are surely better ones out there but its hilariously sad watching the backlight lag behind scene changes and all the algorithms trip all over themselves when I feed them anime instead of the live action they seem to have been designed for.  Luckilly I can turn them all off.  The CRT TV I had before was so crappy that the Vizio's black levels aren't even much worse so the fact that I don't have to squint to read the subtitles (and can even read books from it) makes up for that.
   
  Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> Sometimes I miss my days of running Premiere Pro on quad 20" CRTs at 2048x1536... and then I remember how little desk space I had left. I think I did the math one time and came up with ~10x the pixels of an "HD" display.


 

 I don't really see LCD monitors saving space.  Even if my monitors had no 3rd dimension I don't think I'd be able to make much use of the space behind them and I wouldn't want to move them further away.  TVs are a different story if for no other reason besides that large CRTs have a hard time making it through most doorways.
   
  That's probably enough bitching about monitors though...


----------



## NamelessPFG

This thread's become quite lively now...a place for gaming discussion just like Mad Lust Envy's thread. Exactly what I was hoping for.
   
  As for monitors, I have a couple of 21" FD Trinitron G1s in active use (a Sun GDM-5410 on my flagship desktop and a Dell P1110 on the backup/classic gaming desktop), costing only $6 and $10 a piece. I really like them (1600x1200 at 95 Hz, lower resolutions at up to 160 Hz), but the flyback transformers may not last much longer, which worries me. At least they won't set me back too much money.
   
  I wouldn't mind having a 24" 1920x1200 or 30" 2560x1600 IPS LCD monitor for the sake of MORE PIXELS!, but the cost is just too high, and I'd still be sacrificing refresh rate. If I want a nice 120 Hz refresh rate, then I have to settle for a mere 1920x1080 (which I refuse to accept if it means giving up 1600x1200) and lousy TN viewing angles (not something I'd want if I'm in a combat flight sim mood and using my TrackIR).
   
  There's also that NEC MultiSync XV29 Plus I use for the retro consoles, but its geometry is messed up beyond what the OSD will allow me to fix. I can either have the top corners flared out or the bottom corners tucked in-not both, since there's no independent top/bottom corner pincushion. Also, the whole image is sort of arched up, with the top side being convex and the bottom being concave. In spite of this, SNES, Genesis, and Saturn games look so nice in 240p RGB that I can't be bothered to use anything else for the time being, and the large 29" screen size (27" viewable) certainly helps.
   
  At this rate, I may have to become a CRT technician in order to learn how to get these things running at their peak...
   
  Oh, and speaking of the X-Fi Prelude having high output levels, if 100% takes it to ridiculous levels (note that I never use 100% sound card volume to avoid clipping and allow more EQ headroom; I usually use 10%, maybe 25%), then what volume setting puts it at standard levels?


----------



## Phos

Well I thought that line level was 2V RMS, but looking at Wikipedia I might be wrong. If you want to test your RMS output, grab singen and set it output 60Hz full volume and then measure AC voltage from the sleeve to either the ring or the tip of a male to male plug. 

Edit: ok, so it seems the line level is meant to be around 2 Vpk, and most multimeters only give you rms, so I guess you're probably going to want it at 50% for proper line level. No wait, rms isn't just one half peak, so I'll have to double check this. Either way, seems really weird that creative would set up a rear jack this way, though i guess they went about it like this so the card wouldn't have to include two different output stages for the same channels.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> I don't really see LCD monitors saving space.  Even if my monitors had no 3rd dimension I don't think I'd be able to make much use of the space behind them and I wouldn't want to move them further away.  TVs are a different story if for no other reason besides that large CRTs have a hard time making it through most doorways.


 

 I use the space behind my 27" LCD to stow a UPS and center speaker for my 5.1 system. Completely hides all the cable clutter too behind the giant screen.
   
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> This thread's become quite lively now...a place for gaming discussion just like Mad Lust Envy's thread. Exactly what I was hoping for.
> 
> As for monitors, I have a couple of 21" FD Trinitron G1s in active use (a Sun GDM-5410 on my flagship desktop and a Dell P1110 on the backup/classic gaming desktop), costing only $6 and $10 a piece. I really like them (1600x1200 at 95 Hz, lower resolutions at up to 160 Hz), but the flyback transformers may not last much longer, which worries me. At least they won't set me back too much money.
> 
> ...


 

 I still have my P110 that I did a resistor mod on when the brightness started to get incredibly washed out. Open it up, locate the appropriate resistor, and add 100-150% more resistance while trying not to electrocute yourself. All you need to do is drop another resistor in there to get the resistance to 5-8 MOhm. After the resistors are inserted let it warm back up and run the built in self calibration again, your colors will go back to the very deep hues you had years ago.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> I still have my P110 that I did a resistor mod on when the brightness started to get incredibly washed out. Open it up, locate the appropriate resistor, and add 100-150% more resistance while trying not to electrocute yourself. All you need to do is drop another resistor in there to get the resistance to 5-8 MOhm. After the resistors are inserted let it warm back up and run the built in self calibration again, your colors will go back to the very deep hues you had years ago.


 

 I opted for the TTL cable -> WinDAS route -> G2 voltage adjustment to fix that. It'll fix excessive brightness, but not one color/electron gun being significantly brighter than the others to the point of tinting everything, even after a color return.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> This thread's become quite lively now...a place for gaming discussion just like Mad Lust Envy's thread. Exactly what I was hoping for.
> 
> As for monitors, I have a couple of 21" FD Trinitron G1s in active use (a Sun GDM-5410 on my flagship desktop and a Dell P1110 on the backup/classic gaming desktop), costing only $6 and $10 a piece. I really like them (1600x1200 at 95 Hz, lower resolutions at up to 160 Hz), but the flyback transformers may not last much longer, which worries me. At least they won't set me back too much money.
> 
> ...


 


  You might consider giving Powerstrip software a spin as it allows for further monitor tweaking, which could help with your NEC MultiSync XV29 Plus.
   
  And great prices on those Trinitrons


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> This is simply not true. Again, you're monitoring the device's output, not using it as a conventional source; you're feeding one audio controller into another - it's the same thing as feeding a soundcard into another soundcard, because that's all the USB box is. AND just because a device is labeled USB does not mean it's magically superior in terms of specs or SQ. And finally, any of the jitter reduction/noise rejection/magic claimed for why USB is somehow better simply by virtue of existing goes right out the window - if we're talking about perceptable latency that's well over 1ms (average human response time: 250ms, you can perceive shorter timespans but not 1ms) which is extreme in terms of digital audio. Again, just feed into a device that takes S/PDIF in. In that case you legitimately *are* bypassing the onboard DtoA stages on whatever soundcard (which are still almost certainly transparent so it's not like spending extra money is helping you here).
> 
> So no, there's no benefit. If you disagree, put up some numbers.


 

 I still think that for those of us who already have higher quality USB DACs like FiiOs that we already use for our headphones (which ARE superior to an X-Fi, especially when you're using high impedance headphones) but are just getting into gaming and like having directional cues in game, monitoring the DSP output over USB is a hell of a lot easier than physically removing the opamps on the X-Fi cards and soldering new ones on to improve SQ. If you can't stand a barely perceptible amount of lag because you're doing work that needs audio matched on a frame by frame basis (by the way, at 30FPS you'd need 33ms of lag to be a frame off) then you shouldn't be looking at kludgy software tricks that are clearly no match for very expensive dedicated hardware like a realizer. As it stands the replies would indicate that many of us have followed the steps I laid out and tried it with success, despite a certain person claiming the entire time it was *completely* impossible. I apologize that the fact that it was indeed possible was confirmed so quickly while my ability to get my hands on dedicated testing gear will take quite a bit longer. I fully expect to add more proof to the theory that even if the X-Fi had *identical *specs to something like a FiiO, there's still the matter of EMI that can lead to noticeable changes to the card's output. Perhaps as a member of Head-Fi who's less of a noob than me you could help me figure out how to test to a standard you will approve of, rather than trying to dismiss me with a simple "put up or shut up".
   
  On second look, are you honestly trying to say that DtoA stages in a $100 X-Fi are as well designed as the DtoA stages in something like Atmospheric's DACMagic? Even if you're continuing to say that monitoring the X-Fi output in software is no different than using a M-M from the soundcard output back into its line in which is already hard to swallow, that's a stretch. Maybe Creative's marketing department can use that quote on their next press release


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> USB DACs like FiiOs that we already use for our headphones (which ARE superior to an X-Fi, especially when you're using high impedance headphones)


 
   
  Can you back that up with actual data ? Other than having relatively decent headphone output stages, there is nothing special about FiiO products in terms of DAC performance. In fact, their lower end offerings (for example, the D5) can even be outperformed by some of the better onboard audio chips. For higher impedance headphones, none of them of which reliable measurements are available is as good as the Xonar Essence STX, or, in terms of DAC performance only, even the PCM1796 based Xonar cards.
  
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *SniperCzar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I fully expect to add more proof to the theory that even if the X-Fi had *identical *specs to something like a FiiO, there's still the matter of EMI that can lead to noticeable changes to the card's output.


 
   
  EMI can be an issue in some machines, although for me it has never been significant. Also, higher end sound cards are often shielded. Although I suspect much of the time the "interference" problems reported by various people, especially when using external amplifiers, are actually caused by ground loops, and not EMI.
  
  Quote:  





> On second look, are you honestly trying to say that DtoA stages in a $100 X-Fi are as well designed as the DtoA stages in something like Atmospheric's DACMagic?


 
   
  You cannot really compare the prices of sound cards and boutique audiophile products made by small companies. The latter are inherently more expensive for the same specs and feature set. First, being external adds significantly to the price, as a nice looking enclosure tends to cost more than the internal components used in the device; a sound card is basically just a bare PCB, so the extra cost is minimized. The DAC and amplifier chips themselves are actually fairly cheap. Second, the price mark-up on the audiophile products is much higher, due to the small quantities being produced, and the typical consumer of these devices does not even demand the cost efficiency (as your own post illustrates, the assumption is more expensive = must be better).


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roller said:


> You might consider giving Powerstrip software a spin as it allows for further monitor tweaking, which could help with your NEC MultiSync XV29 Plus.
> 
> And great prices on those Trinitrons


 

  I would try that...if the NEC monitor was being used with my PCs. I bought it specifically because it accepts 15 KHz horizontal sync, the kind of signal that old consoles generally output over RGB. Powerstrip obviously doesn't run on the SNES, Genesis, Saturn, and so forth.
   
  And yes, I love scoring big aperture grille CRTs locally on the cheap like that. They may not be holy grail FW900 finds, but close enough to where I'm comfortable with them. Certainly a lot easier on the wallet than a good LCD monitor (1920x1200 IPS and no less).
   
  Quote: 





stv014 said:


> EMI can be an issue in some machines, although for me it has never been significant. Also, higher end sound cards are often shielded. Although I suspect much of the time the "interference" problems reported by various people, especially when using external amplifiers, are actually caused by ground loops, and not EMI.


 

 I've actually thought about this point before...are the ground loops usually a byproduct of poor motherboard design? Then there's the crappy front-panel audio headers in most computer cases whose ground is common with the other ports, like USB, and thus make anything they're connected to sound like crap due to the resulting ground loop...and let's not get started on the whole X-Fi Forte grounding fiasco (though I had a later-revision card that seemed to be immune to that problem).


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





stv014 said:


> Can you back that up with actual data ? Other than having relatively decent headphone output stages, there is nothing special about FiiO products in terms of DAC performance. In fact, their lower end offerings (for example, the D5) can even be outperformed by some of the better onboard audio chips. For higher impedance headphones, none of them of which reliable measurements are available is as good as the Xonar Essence STX, or, in terms of DAC performance only, even the PCM1796 based Xonar cards.


 
   
  I suppose I should have been more clear, I wasn't really trying to focus on just the DAC aspect of the FiiO vs the X-Fi, I probably should have just referred to it as a "USB audio device". Interestingly enough I was searching for info on the X-Fi and found one of your posts...
   
  Quote: 





stv014 said:


> *The X-Fi is not as good* as the STX *as far as general audio quality is concerned*, *but* it is not bad either, and *has a better DSP chip for gaming (hardware EAX support)*. So, combining that with the E9 - *since the X-Fi does not include a dedicated headphone amplifier* - is another good option. *Obviously, with the E7+E9, you will get no hardware 3D audio support at all.*


 
   
  That's pretty much *exactly *what I'm advocating here as it's what I plan to do very soon, using the X-Fi with an E17. As I've been seeing in the E17 thread that many really enjoy the sound of my DT-770s with it compared to their previous equipment and they don't seem to do as well with soundcards with higher output impedance like the X-Fi, it seemed pretty logical to me to want to pair it with the X-Fi I already own. For those with higher impedance headphones the output impedance on the soundcard won't be as big of an issue, but they still might prefer the E17 sound while taking advantage of the FiiO's ability to drive higher impedance headphones more adequately.
   
  Thanks for the tip on ground loops vs. EMI.
   
  As for boutique vs. high end, I was merely pointing out that shooting down the idea that an X-Fi's SQ was "good enough" when previous posters had said they wanted to play with the idea of using X-Fi features with their boutique products was an entirely flawed argument. I don't go around Head-Fi telling people to get $100 soundcards and hook all their stuff into them because they sound "good enough" when they already own and use products they consider superior. The fact that someone doesn't like the idea of applying DSP to audio devices separate from the card they came with doesn't change that fact at all. I personally don't buy into the "more expensive = better" attitude without doing my research first. I've got nothing against you specifically stv, you just happen to be chiming in (with a rather level head I might add, which is nice) at the latest of the posts in this thread seemingly directed at me that I'm getting sick of. First it was "that's impossible" followed by "that creates too much lag, you don't want to use that" then "why can't everyone just use optical" (ummm, because there are laptop users with CMSS supporting USB devices? And earlier desktop cards without optical? ) and lastly the one we're discussing now that takes the cake - "X-Fi Titanium is good enough for everybody, there's no benefit to using anything else"


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I would try that...if the NEC monitor was being used with my PCs. I bought it specifically because it accepts 15 KHz horizontal sync, the kind of signal that old consoles generally output over RGB. Powerstrip obviously doesn't run on the SNES, Genesis, Saturn, and so forth.
> 
> And yes, I love scoring big aperture grille CRTs locally on the cheap like that. They may not be holy grail FW900 finds, but close enough to where I'm comfortable with them. Certainly a lot easier on the wallet than a good LCD monitor (1920x1200 IPS and no less).


 


  Ah, you're connecting it directly to the consoles. I thought you were running the games through an emulator.
   
  Those finds are great, and I still find CRTs amazing pieces of tech, with certain traits that can't yet be found on LCDs. Still, I wouldn't mind having one of those low bezel multimonitor solutions from Matrox.


----------



## obobskivich

Depends on what it's driving (and no I haven't used a multi to test, I just watch for "clip indicators" to turn on, or when I hear clipping I back off) - my desktop speakers (which are absurdly sensitive) it runs at around 60%, the Koss E.90 can handle it at up to around 70%. 100% will put either into clipping if you've got musical peaks. Digital out is normal - run it at 100 and forget it. I think Auzen's reasoning on the hotter output was to better handle headphones, but don't quote me on that (I remember reading this in some advert a few years ago, pre-Forte). Compare this to the Audigy 2 ZS and the X-Fi Fatal1ty that run at 100% and are transparent. As far as the monitors discussion goes (Which I LOVE having!) - I've never understood IPS fever. I've used press calibrated IPS monitors before, and I just don't see the "need" if you don't actually need the color accuracy (for example, in a pre-press situation); 8-bit TN is a good compromise imho (and the viewing angle is just fine), and I really like VA panels (if you're concerned at all about viewing angle, SPVA is really the way to go). Maybe I'm just weird like that, who knows.
  
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Oh, and speaking of the X-Fi Prelude having high output levels, if 100% takes it to ridiculous levels (note that I never use 100% sound card volume to avoid clipping and allow more EQ headroom; I usually use 10%, maybe 25%), then what volume setting puts it at standard levels?


 


  I think it's "supposed" to be 2Vrms, but CE manufacturers are very inconsistent - check the sensitivity rating of whatever you're plugging into, is my advice. For example my AVR's stated sensitivity is 316 mV - it'll go into clipping from my CD player if I don't attenuate the input a bit. My SSP's preouts run hotter than hades, and will push many amplifiers to "big huge noise" pretty quickly; again, it's very inconsistent. AudioKarma has a great article on this: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58829
   
  I'm not worried about this enough to measure every output, but I do always keep an eye on specs to know if I'm going to have to tone something back; I really like S/PDIF when available, because (at least we assume) the internal gain structure of the device will match the device's internal DAC (and indeed, with the AVR (for example) it will never light up its "clip" indicator when fed via S/PDIF). 
   
  And again, this is just the Prelude (which is not Creative) afaik; every Sound Blaster I've ever used is "normal" in that running them at 80-100% will absolutely work into a conventional preamp/line-in device. 

  Quote: 





phos said:


> Well I thought that line level was 2V RMS, but looking at Wikipedia I might be wrong. If you want to test your RMS output, grab singen and set it output 60Hz full volume and then measure AC voltage from the sleeve to either the ring or the tip of a male to male plug.
> Edit: ok, so it seems the line level is meant to be around 2 Vpk, and most multimeters only give you rms, so I guess you're probably going to want it at 50% for proper line level. No wait, rms isn't just one half peak, so I'll have to double check this. Either way, seems really weird that creative would set up a rear jack this way, though i guess they went about it like this so the card wouldn't have to include two different output stages for the same channels.


 


   

 How do you know it's higher quality? How are you validating this? I'm really not trying to dismiss you, but you aren't coming from a position of facts here. Regarding the "am I trying to say that the DtoA on a soundcard is as good as some audiophile boutique product" - not only AM I saying that, in some cases they are BETTER. Here's some measurements for you:
  http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/creative-emu-1820/ (this is pre-X-Fi)
  http://www.ixbt.com/multimedia/asus/d2/elite-pro2444.shtml (X-Fi Elite Pro)
  http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/multimedia/creative-x-fi.html (ixbt's original X-Fi review, they used an AP analyzer for this one)
   
  Those are all going to be transparent; if EMI and RFI goblins were going to rape the audio signal, they'd produce as THD products - those are putting down a noise floor lower than whatever your recordings are likely coming in with. 
   
  Here's the thing about all of this:
   
  With the exception of some really nutjob overpriced components, all of your "audiophile boutique" parts are drawing from the same exact parts bins as Creative, Asus, Intel, Yamaha, and so on are drawing from. There's an absolute limit to how good those parts can get, the absolute TOTL chips are a few dollar commodity parts; it isn't that complicated to use them either. The audiophile boutique parts cost a fortune because the higher price implies quality and allows the product to sell better (see: Veblen Goods and Veblen's original paper/book on Conspicuous Consumption - this is an understood and documented socioeconomic phenomenon). They also cost more because they've gotta deal with small production numbers (increases price), providing power and enclosures (increases price), and supporting/validating a stand-alone device (increases price). Creative, Asus, and so on don't worry about power supplies, enclosures, or anything like that. They just build the card. 
   
  Most of your USB audio controllers are actually out-spec'd and out-performed by internal hardware; usually most of them can't break a 100 dB SNR even on paper, let alone through an AP analyzer. They're still acoustically transparent though, because their noise floor is lower than the media's noise floor (among other things). We can even go look up the Fiio you're talking about, lets pick the E7. http://www.fiio.com.cn/product/index.aspx?ID=28&MenuID=020301 Fiio states a maximum SNR of 100 dB; most X-Fi cards are claiming 120 - you won't be able to pick them apart, but the X-Fi DtoAs are higher grade. The E7 does have a headphone driver in it, which many soundcards lack - that isn't a function of it being a better DtoA though (see below, the Afro Tech and Meier links) - throw an amp on the output of the X-Fi and you're set. 
   
  So aside from having a hotter output (which psychoacoustics tell us you will perceive as different and generally as better), or having a more robust opamp in the stage (which assures a flatter FR into a lower impedance/higher current demand load), there isn't going to be any real difference between these devices. Simple as pie. 
   
  Some more interesting things to look at:
  http://www.afrotechmods.com/reallycheap/soundcard/sennheiser.htm
  http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/ (click Tips and Tricks and look at the impedance section) 
   
  You can disagree with me based on subjective analysis ("to me it sounds better and that's all that matters") all you'd like, but the math and the science disagrees with your position (through being able to explain and qualify it) - that's where I'm coming from. 
   
  Head-Fi has actually added a great section that deals with this, and it has a great post in it:
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths
   
  Also see this:
  http://ethanwiner.com/myths.html
  and this:
  http://ethanwiner.com/aes/
   
  In summary: there's no point in testing this for yourself (unless you've got an AP analyzer you just want to toy around with, or you like RMAA), because other people have done it for you, fairly conclusively. I'm not denying that we CAN create audible differences here, but it's not a matter of "this is expensive and "audiophile grade" and therefore sounds "Better"" - when I say that something is "good enough" I mean that you're better served putting your cash into something that will matter; like cans, music, games, or (depending on the cans) amplification (for example, running Beyer T1s from a crappy amp will do you no good, even if you have a silly expensive DtoA). I'm not trying to attack you, and perhaps I should've provided more defense for my claims in the first place - my bad.
   
  Oh, one other point I just thought of after posting this - remember that a lot of games (up until very recently, and then only from some developers) did not consider audio fidelity to be a huge priority; look at something like Gothic 3 as a very dramatic example of this in recent years. Garbage in, garbage out. 
   
  Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> I still think that for those of us who already have higher quality USB DACs like FiiOs that we already use for our headphones (which ARE superior to an X-Fi, especially when you're using high impedance headphones) but are just getting into gaming and like having directional cues in game, monitoring the DSP output over USB is a hell of a lot easier than physically removing the opamps on the X-Fi cards and soldering new ones on to improve SQ. If you can't stand a barely perceptible amount of lag because you're doing work that needs audio matched on a frame by frame basis (by the way, at 30FPS you'd need 33ms of lag to be a frame off) then you shouldn't be looking at kludgy software tricks that are clearly no match for very expensive dedicated hardware like a realizer. As it stands the replies would indicate that many of us have followed the steps I laid out and tried it with success, despite a certain person claiming the entire time it was *completely* impossible. I apologize that the fact that it was indeed possible was confirmed so quickly while my ability to get my hands on dedicated testing gear will take quite a bit longer. I fully expect to add more proof to the theory that even if the X-Fi had *identical *specs to something like a FiiO, there's still the matter of EMI that can lead to noticeable changes to the card's output. Perhaps as a member of Head-Fi who's less of a noob than me you could help me figure out how to test to a standard you will approve of, rather than trying to dismiss me with a simple "put up or shut up".
> 
> On second look, are you honestly trying to say that DtoA stages in a $100 X-Fi are as well designed as the DtoA stages in something like Atmospheric's DACMagic? Even if you're continuing to say that monitoring the X-Fi output in software is no different than using a M-M from the soundcard output back into its line in which is already hard to swallow, that's a stretch. Maybe Creative's marketing department can use that quote on their next press release


 

 Regarding the "sucky" sound on most motherboards - it's somewhere between a QC issue and a lack of concern during production. The actual codec hardware is generally fairly competent, but it's usually wired up in the most half-assed way possible (as PFG noted - commonly grounded to everything else). I've yet to see a good rule of thumb to determine if a board will have onboard that doesn't bleed - of the half dozen boards I use daily, one has no noise, one has noise only at a high output level, and the others are all worthless. And it has no relationship between manufacturer, cost, codec, etc - it seems entirely hit and miss (and from other fora that I participate in, I've read about users who buy a half dozen or dozen of the same exact model (not to test, but for larger deployments) and experience the same erratic failure rate - some of the boards are fine and others bleed noise; you can RMA them but there's no guarantee the replacement won't be just as bad). All of that said, I've yet to use an internal soundcard that suffers from this; and we're talking from very ancient and cheap ISA boards to very modern and expensive PCIe boards. So it can't be *that* hard to do right, especially if you look at other CE devices (for example some modern AV processors run Windows and are complicated enough to need it, and obviously don't bleed noise out) - hence why I say "it's a lack of concern" - I don't think Foxconn or Asus or whoever really care that much about the integrity of the integrated solution as long as it passes a signal out.


----------



## SniperCzar

That makes a much more compelling argument. You're preaching to the choir a bit here, I agree wholeheartedly that just because something is USB or more expensive doesn't mean it's automatically better. As a fairly poor college student I spend many hours researching and considering value of the computer and audio components I buy before spending any money. However, I personally appreciate the flexibility that freeing the DSP from the internal card gives me. That alone is half the value in something like the realizer, which costs 10x more than a nice X-Fi. In my case, I have the choice of an E17 or an amp + E11. Since I already have a nice desktop card that I know I can use in combination with a USB device, I'm purchasing the nicer of the two FiiOs as I will be using it more with my laptop and iPod then my gaming desktop. I get the benefit of a headphone amp and the lower output impedance of the FiiO without having to pay extra for a desktop amp or lose the CMSS effects from the X-Fi. Maybe not the simplest approach and it does introduce some lag, but it's worth it to hold me over until I can buy a desktop amp and I don't need to pay $50 for a nice stopgap amp in the interim.


----------



## obobskivich

In your situation, I'd probably get a device that can accept S/PDIF from your desktop, and USB from the laptop; I believe the Fiio E17 accomplishes that. It also has a headphone amp built in. If you want a better amp stage at your desktop, the E9 + E7 combo is a great setup. 
   
  Regarding the Smyth Realizier, it's a completely different animal - it generates an HRTF model of the specific listener, and accepts a multi-channel input which it then muxes down to stereo. It's similar to what a modern AV receiver or SS processor does with auto-calibration (look at the Sherwood R-972 as an example), it generates a model of the specific acoustic environment and attempts to compensate for the short-comings of that environment targeting a "house curve" - this is a lot different than simply bringing more precise DtoAs or DSPs to the table. Acoustics is basically the "big thing" in terms of getting good sound; that's why companies like Ultrasone, Sennheiser, AKG (Harman being one of the industry leaders in psychoacoustic research), Sony, and so on dump hojillions of dollars into designing a better headphone enclosure and driver. Of course there's the other side of the coin, with something like Grado (which, as far as I know, is mostly ear-tuned) - they measure like hell but sound fairly good. I can't imagine how "hit and miss" their development cycle is though.
   
  Essentially, there is no advantage to "freeing the DSP" - the internal cards have better DSPs and more features, and can do a lot more than any external device can hope to; and with lower latency relative to the amount of math they're computing. If you want to throw money at an outboard DAC, that's fine, but I still have a fundamental problem with the whole "monitoring X with Y" "solution" - pick one or the other (basically do it right or don't do it; what you're doing is very much in the realm of "kludge"). 
   
  Finally, don't get too entirely married to the output impedance question - it really depends on the specific device and what you're asking it to drive, and remember that in recent years soundcard developers have keyed into the desire of users to drive headphones from their equipment. Essentially my philosophy is born out of pragmatism - buy the right tool for the job, not the tool you want. In your situation, this USB kludge is not the right tool for the job; it's just a neat looking tool. We won't get into "high end amps all sound the same within spec" in this thread, as it's probably a bit out of scope, but that'd be where I'd research next. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> That makes a much more compelling argument. You're preaching to the choir a bit here, I agree wholeheartedly that just because something is USB or more expensive doesn't mean it's automatically better. As a fairly poor college student I spend many hours researching and considering value of the computer and audio components I buy before spending any money. However, I personally appreciate the flexibility that freeing the DSP from the internal card gives me. That alone is half the value in something like the realizer, which costs 10x more than a nice X-Fi. In my case, I have the choice of an E17 or an amp + E11. Since I already have a nice desktop card that I know I can use in combination with a USB device, I'm purchasing the nicer of the two FiiOs as I will be using it more with my laptop and iPod then my gaming desktop. I get the benefit of a headphone amp and the lower output impedance of the FiiO without having to pay extra for a desktop amp or lose the CMSS effects from the X-Fi. Maybe not the simplest approach and it does introduce some lag, but it's worth it to hold me over until I can buy a desktop amp and I don't need to pay $50 for a nice stopgap amp in the interim.


----------



## Phos

I'm getting my info off the line level page on Wikipedia.  Regardless, I'm going to be plugging it into an ODA and NwAvGuy says that redbook line level is 2V rms, so I guess he's going to be designing it to that standard.


----------



## obobskivich

Yeah, that's "perfect world" and it's good to hear that at least someone follows standards. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  Quote: 





phos said:


> I'm getting my info off the line level page on Wikipedia.  Regardless, I'm going to be plugging it into an ODA and NwAvGuy says that redbook line level is 2V rms, so I guess he's going to be designing it to that standard.


----------



## Roller

I just realized that I started posting on this thread and forgot to congratulate you NamelessPFG in doing this thread  I know you actually appreciate quality gaming audio, so this is without a doubt rather useful for those who share same interests.
   
  I would like to ask a question though. Is anyone here interested in modifying a piece of software in order to enable EAX support up to version 4 on both all onboard audio chips, PCI/PCIe internal cards and USB DACs?


----------



## Phos

EAX effects are pretty specific to Creative's hardware.  I think you might be better off getting rapture 3D is you don't have hardware EAX support, though it only works with OpenAL games.


----------



## Roller

Clearly you're not aware of what I'm talking about. And I do have Creative hardware with me. Being one of the people that recognize that when it comes to gaming audio, I'm well aware of how EAX 3 and above are exclusive to Creative since EAX 2 was the highest version made available to manufacturers other than Creative, despite the false claims that Asus might make, and actually got sued for false advertising (specifically fake EAX 5 support). Nothing remotely reaches what Creative hardware does when it comes to gaming audio, and I can certainly understand what you're saying, but there are some hacks that enable a few additional hardware flags through software, which would benefit other users.
   
  Basically I'm asking if someone might be interested in helping me mod a piece of software that will allow EAX 1-4 in any audio device. And for the non believers, my USB DJ DAC rocks EAX 4 like it's nobody's business


----------



## atmospheric

i think someone else said this earlier, but if you just don't think about the lag you'll never notice - it's only if you're looking for it that you'll notice, since it's most likely a very minute amount.
  
  Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> That makes a much more compelling argument. You're preaching to the choir a bit here, I agree wholeheartedly that just because something is USB or more expensive doesn't mean it's automatically better. As a fairly poor college student I spend many hours researching and considering value of the computer and audio components I buy before spending any money. However, I personally appreciate the flexibility that freeing the DSP from the internal card gives me. That alone is half the value in something like the realizer, which costs 10x more than a nice X-Fi. In my case, I have the choice of an E17 or an amp + E11. Since I already have a nice desktop card that I know I can use in combination with a USB device, I'm purchasing the nicer of the two FiiOs as I will be using it more with my laptop and iPod then my gaming desktop. I get the benefit of a headphone amp and the lower output impedance of the FiiO without having to pay extra for a desktop amp or lose the CMSS effects from the X-Fi. Maybe not the simplest approach and it does introduce some lag, but it's worth it to hold me over until I can buy a desktop amp and I don't need to pay $50 for a nice stopgap amp in the interim.


----------



## our martin

some of the senns head sets are not surround so if you want them to have surround sound you will need the dss2 which will give any headphones 7.1 surround sound or you could just get the logitech ones which are 7.1 anyway if your a student and want to save yourself a few quid(this is to your question a few pages back)..i am doing a corsair build and waiting for the ivy bridge and amd 7990 graphics card to come out and now the phoebus has been announced so i will be getting one of them aswell and i will be getting the beyerdynamic headzone game which will make the battlefield sound out of this world but i am still getting the phoebus 24bit soundcard to make sure!


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roller said:


> I just realized that I started posting on this thread and forgot to congratulate you NamelessPFG in doing this thread  I know you actually appreciate quality gaming audio, so this is without a doubt rather useful for those who share same interests.
> 
> I would like to ask a question though. Is anyone here interested in modifying a piece of software in order to enable EAX support up to version 4 on both all onboard audio chips, PCI/PCIe internal cards and USB DACs?


 

 Thank you. I realized I needed to make a guide thread like this after quite a while. The more people informed about the quirks and intricacies of PC gaming audio so that they know exactly why things do or don't work, the better. As it stands, I see enough comments floating around on the Internet to the tune of "hardware audio is dead after Vista" or "money better spent on a graphics card" like they frankly don't care, or just don't know any better. (Not that Creative or anyone else cares to make it all any less confusing...)
   
  While I wish I could help with the software EAX modification, I have no programming skills. The most I could do is test it on a few devices, like a few Realtek and IDT codecs, the Sound Blaster Live! 24-bit External SB0490, and any other PC audio devices I can get my hands on. However, I do know that it's very much possible to run game EAX effects in software; the X-Fi MB software package bundled with some computers is proof enough. Just check the OpenAL flags. (The problem is getting X-Fi MB to run on everything and not specific Realtek or IDT codecs...)


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Thank you. I realized I needed to make a guide thread like this after quite a while. The more people informed about the quirks and intricacies of PC gaming audio so that they know exactly why things do or don't work, the better. As it stands, I see enough comments floating around on the Internet to the tune of "hardware audio is dead after Vista" or "money better spent on a graphics card" like they frankly don't care, or just don't know any better. (Not that Creative or anyone else cares to make it all any less confusing...)
> 
> While I wish I could help with the software EAX modification, I have no programming skills. The most I could do is test it on a few devices, like a few Realtek and IDT codecs, the Sound Blaster Live! 24-bit External SB0490, and any other PC audio devices I can get my hands on. However, I do know that it's very much possible to run game EAX effects in software; the X-Fi MB software package bundled with some computers is proof enough. Just check the OpenAL flags. (The problem is getting X-Fi MB to run on everything and not specific Realtek or IDT codecs...)


 

  
  About the whole "hardware audio is dead after Vista", that's ridiculous, but it sure requires unnecessary workarounds, workarounds those that wouldn't exist in the first place if Creative played along nicely with Microsoft. Yet it's the Creative hardware that does fully support every single hardware feature related to gaming audio, that's emulated in software by all other vendors.
   
  I understand what you're saying about X-Fi MB and the other similar software packages that install on top of previously installed audio drivers, but what I'm talking about is a direct tool to force enable EAX 1-4 on devices such as higher quality DACs and all onboard audio chips (not just the limited OEM versions allowed on X-Fi MB), a tool that doesn't require activations like X-Fi MB does, but I'm currently facing some incompatibilities with some games when running them with EAX enabled on both my onboard audio chip and my external USB DAC.
   
  Programming isn't my area at all, but I'm going to research a bit further, and when I have things on a more stable condition, I'm going to either post here or PM you so you can run a few tests.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roller said:


> About the whole "hardware audio is dead after Vista", that's ridiculous, but it sure requires unnecessary workarounds, workarounds those that wouldn't exist in the first place if Creative played along nicely with Microsoft. Yet it's the Creative hardware that does fully support every single hardware feature related to gaming audio, that's emulated in software by all other vendors.
> 
> I understand what you're saying about X-Fi MB and the other similar software packages that install on top of previously installed audio drivers, but what I'm talking about is a direct tool to force enable EAX 1-4 on devices such as higher quality DACs and all onboard audio chips (not just the limited OEM versions allowed on X-Fi MB), a tool that doesn't require activations like X-Fi MB does, but I'm currently facing some incompatibilities with some games when running them with EAX enabled on both my onboard audio chip and my external USB DAC.
> 
> Programming isn't my area at all, but I'm going to research a bit further, and when I have things on a more stable condition, I'm going to either post here or PM you so you can run a few tests.


 

 Agreed on the workarounds-all it does is confuse people. While the pre-Vista sound stack was pretty horrid, I saw absolutely no reason for Microsoft to kill off DirectSound3D (and replace it with something inferior like XAudio2 + X3DAudio on top of that). While OpenAL remains unaffected, the simple fact is that many more games used DirectSound3D, especially back then in the pre-Vista days while it was still implemented, and there may still be isolated incidents of ALchemy not working quite right, just like how a typical 3dfx Glide wrapper might run into a game or two that has some visual artifacts that wouldn't be there on the real hardware.
   
  So you're planning on making/tweaking a dedicated utility for EAX support on non-Creative hardware that doesn't require hacking up X-Fi MB? Now I'm intrigued, especially when it comes to gaming laptops (where you naturally can't just cram a desktop X-Fi card into). Is this just going to be for OpenAL titles at first (if for no other reason than to make sure that the software EAX implementation works right without any DirectSound3D wrappers involved)?


----------



## obobskivich

I'd be careful on posting up a guide that explains how to crack EAX - given that Creative sabre rattled with Asus, and has sued individual people in the past for far less; you might want to find out if it's really worth putting up (because it does technically violate the EULA for EAX). I think it would be very interesting into see, and I don't get why Creative hasn't moved that direction in some form - modern CPUs are powerful enough to run it, we don't need these expensive co-processors anymore.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Agreed on the workarounds-all it does is confuse people. While the pre-Vista sound stack was pretty horrid, I saw absolutely no reason for Microsoft to kill off DirectSound3D (and replace it with something inferior like XAudio2 + X3DAudio on top of that). While OpenAL remains unaffected, the simple fact is that many more games used DirectSound3D, especially back then in the pre-Vista days while it was still implemented, and there may still be isolated incidents of ALchemy not working quite right, just like how a typical 3dfx Glide wrapper might run into a game or two that has some visual artifacts that wouldn't be there on the real hardware.
> 
> So you're planning on making/tweaking a dedicated utility for EAX support on non-Creative hardware that doesn't require hacking up X-Fi MB? Now I'm intrigued, especially when it comes to gaming laptops (where you naturally can't just cram a desktop X-Fi card into). Is this just going to be for OpenAL titles at first (if for no other reason than to make sure that the software EAX implementation works right without any DirectSound3D wrappers involved)?


 


  I have yet to fully understand why exactly XAudio did come to life, as I don't really believe it was immensely complicated to program and compose game audio for DirectSound3D.
   
  The software works for nearly all DirectSound3D games, including Battlefield series (except the highest EAX 5 settings, only supports up to EAX 4), but won't touch OpenAL unfortunately. The reason why tweaking OpenAL as well would be good is that the features unlocked in DirectSound3D would be available in OpenAL, while OpenAL will read the hardware flags and fail to find any gaming features, therefore limiting both surround features and overall output quality. I know audio renderers can be switched on some games, but I haven't found a hacked OpenAL renderer yet that allows all gaming audio features and at the same time offloads them to the CPU.
   
  But obobskivich makes a good point, I'm going to have to read the EULA indeed.


----------



## Phos

OpenAL is the limitation there? Try Rapture3D, it's a software OpenAL proccessor that runs in software.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





phos said:


> OpenAL is the limitation there? Try Rapture3D, it's a software OpenAL proccessor that runs in software.


 


  While Rapture3D is a good OpenAL renderer, above average actually, it's still limited to the features available by default in the audio hardware, while I'm talking about telling the audio renderer that the device does have virtually all audio features, despite the hardware not having them, through routing the requests back at a CPU host. But that's way too complicated :/ Although if I could manage to unlock those features through software and send them to Rapture3D to process them with the aid of the CPU, that would be the ideal OpenAL platform.


----------



## SniperCzar

Guys, those of you in the market for a soundcard might want to check out this sale... Refurb Titanium for $36. http://slickdeals.net/permadeal/69644/newegg-refurbished-creative-7.1-channels-24bit-sound-blaster-xfi-titanium-sound-card-70sb0880000048?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SlickdealsnetFP+%28SlickDeals.net+Frontpage%29


----------



## ROBSCIX

Not a bad deal, would be good for S/Pdif source for those that want to game with a DAC/amp.
  No need to invest a large amount of money, to try it out.  Of course you can always just use the card too!


----------



## NamelessPFG

A true X-Fi card that's still in production, for just $36, and with no need for weird Flexijack adapters for connection to S/PDIF DACs? That's an excellent deal!
   
  No X-RAM (only 16 MB rather than 64 MB), but I don't think any game really uses it anyway. The important thing is that the EMU20k2's there, along with hardware EAX 5 and CMSS-3D Headphone.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> A true X-Fi card that's still in production, for just $36, and with no need for weird Flexijack adapters for connection to S/PDIF DACs? That's an excellent deal!
> 
> No X-RAM (only 16 MB rather than 64 MB), but I don't think any game really uses it anyway. The important thing is that the EMU20k2's there, along with hardware EAX 5 and CMSS-3D Headphone.


 

 IIRC, OpenAL will use X-RAM by default, it is part of the coding for OpenAL.
  It is hard to beat for $36 for the 20K2 and other features.  Even if you don't want to use it as a straight source, it can make a great S/Pdif source
  giving you all the gaming features and higher quality of the external DAC/Amp.


----------



## Roller

OpenAL checks for X-RAM presence but only uses it if the app requires it. What's unfortunate though is that 2-16MB aren't considered enough to be classified as X-RAM, therefore not being used in the conventional X-RAM sense.


----------



## ROBSCIX

The information I read stated that OpenAL uses X-Ram by DEFAULT for buffering, caching samples and other tasks. 
  For instance, a game that is coded for the DS API would need specific coding for such tasks where as if the game is using the OpenAL API it does not.
  Although not really a point on cards unless they actually have enough X-Ram to use the features.  Not sure where I read that info, I think it was part of the OpenAL coders mailing list.
   
  Here is similar info to the above:
   
  "OpenAL SDK and X-RAM SDK for developers appeared not long ago, for NDA. In case of available X-RAM, drivers always use the on-board memory by default, unless settings force a program to do otherwise. Forcing a program not to use X-RAM may be useful for buffers with rapidly changing data or for very large buffers. Thus, samples are cached in X-RAM by default."
  It was mainly implemented for decompressing lossy audio routines prior to their usage.
  Hope that helps.


----------



## AxelCloris

First time posting in this thread. I've been trying the Recon3D and comparing it to my E10. I have to say that I like the positioning more out of the Recon3D, but I also don't feel like the sound quality is up to that of the E10. And since the E10 only outputs stereo PCM over coax then I can't run into the Recon3D to adapt to the virtual surround. Anyone find a good method of achieving the better positioning with high quality sound out of a laptop? Mine sadly doesn't have an optical out, so it's only USB out for me.
   
  Little back story, these are running Fischer Audio FA-011s and I'm playing Skyrim, Mass Effect 2 and SW:TOR (which has crappy audio, so I'm not blaming my components for it sounding like garbage.)
   
  *edit* Should also point out that at some point I plan to have a pair of Q701's in place of the Fischer's, and I know the E10 is ok to run them, but not great.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Does the Recon3D provide a Stereo Mix/"What U Hear" option under the Recording tab when plugged in over USB? If so, you can use SniperCzar's trick to use the FiiO E10's analog output while having the Recon3D's DSP features.
   
  I'll copy/paste it for your convenience. Just know that if you're not running Win7 for whatever reason (which I doubt), it won't work.
   
  1. Right click on your volume tray in Windows 7 and select "Recording devices"
  2. Select "What U Hear" and click "Properties" (cringe inducing grammar there Creative)
  [Note - you do NOT have to set this as the default recording device]
  3. Select the "Listen" tab and check the box marked "Listen to this device"
  4. Under the drop down marked "Playback through this device:" select your desired DAC
  5. Make sure "Continue running when on battery power" is selected as a software passthrough should have no effect whatsoever on your battery life
  6. Select the "Levels" tab and set it to something comfortable, as the volume control for the Creative card's standard output will have no effect on the volume of the software recording device.
  7. Enjoy listening to CMSS-3D, freed from the noisy and inferior hardware confines of your internal soundcard!


----------



## AxelCloris

I've checked for the what u hear option and it does not seem to show up. I've enabled the option to show disabled devices as well and still don't see it on there. This may be due to the fact that it's a usb device, but I can't say for sure.


----------



## Phos

Are you sure that the big difference in SQ isn't down to the prcoessing?  You've tried the Recon3D with it off, right?  One fairly simple solution would be to double amp it.


----------



## AxelCloris

Actually that's what I was thinking might be the cause. I wasn't necessarily looking to combine the 2 but was considering it as a possibility. I've tried the U3 before, and I wasn't thrilled with it's sound at all. It'd be amazing if my laptop could take a dedicated card. And I assume since the Recon3D is the upgrade to the old X-Fi 5.1 USB that it might not be worth trying the older model unless the sound itself was better, then run it into something like the mixamp. Was just wondering if anyone here has had any experience running through the limitations of usb and what the ceiling is.
   
  Also, thank you both for your input to far, I really appreciate it.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





axelcloris said:


> I've checked for the what u hear option and it does not seem to show up. I've enabled the option to show disabled devices as well and still don't see it on there. This may be due to the fact that it's a usb device, but I can't say for sure.


 

 Says here you need to install the bundled software to get "What U Hear" enabled: http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=87127


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





axelcloris said:


> Actually that's what I was thinking might be the cause. I wasn't necessarily looking to combine the 2 but was considering it as a possibility. I've tried the U3 before, and I wasn't thrilled with it's sound at all. It'd be amazing if my laptop could take a dedicated card. And I assume since the Recon3D is the upgrade to the old X-Fi 5.1 USB that it might not be worth trying the older model unless the sound itself was better, then run it into something like the mixamp. Was just wondering if anyone here has had any experience running through the limitations of usb and what the ceiling is.
> 
> Also, thank you both for your input to far, I really appreciate it.


 

  
  The Recon3D is _sort of_ an upgrade to the 5.1, I think the idea is it's meant to serve as a mixamp substitute that can also be used on PC's. You've tried disabling the processing, right?  Not a lot of people around here have tried them so I don't know how the sound coming out of them is unprocessed.  Bear in mind that most any HRTF processing is going to color the sound.


----------



## hamzatm

Hi guys, I'm after a sound card for the best positional audio possible in games, assume I have high end cans. I can get the auzentech x-meridian quite cheap atm. But after research many people say that it's inferior to the forte/prelude for games. But no one ever seems to give the reason why. So the question is: why? Is it because it lacks hardware decoding? I have a core i5-2500k, I'm sure I won't notice an fps drop in games, or will I? I vaguely remember hearing that the forte has additional processing on sounds from above below you (ie in the vertical axis) that would make it better in games. Is this the case? What does a sound card add to positional audio in games, apart from just dolby headphones/cmss3d? Is all dolby/cmss done equally? Could anyone possibly help me out it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks


----------



## Roller

While one of the features of hardware accelerated audio is indeed lower CPU usage, that's no longer as relevant and isn't nearly relevant when compared to the fact that game audio has better output quality as well as better positional audio quality. Some 3rd party sound cards that licensed the X-Fi DSP chip have only licensed the base chip, meaning it doesn't allow for hardware accelerated audio nor the highest EAX version support or the enhanced positional audio algorithms of a EMU20K2 powered card.
   
  If you're going after the best positional audio and overall best gaming audio support on a sound card, then the choice to go with is the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD. If you want a cheaper card, you can go with an Auzentech X-Fi Forte, or further down the scale a Creative X-Fi Titanium Fatality.


----------



## hamzatm

Great thank you so much  Titanium HD is a bit out of my budget. How much of a difference is the titanium non-HD to the forte? Will the forte be better in positioning or just better in terms of sound quality itself? Also should I ignore the Meridian and focus on a slightly more expensive forte/cheaper titanium?
 Okay from reading your post again, it seems the forte has slightly better positional audio than the titanium non-HD. I can get the non-HD for £50 or less, the meridian for £70 and the forte for £100. I am willing to spend more if I get a real difference in positional audio. I should mention I already have the budget xonar dg, but the positional audio if it was underwhelming, and what lead me to undertake an upgrade. I'm looking for a decent upgrade from that. Thanks again


----------



## our martin

Quote: 





hamzatm said:


> Hi guys, I'm after a sound card for the best positional audio possible in games, assume I have high end cans. I can get the auzentech x-meridian quite cheap atm. But after research many people say that it's inferior to the forte/prelude for games. But no one ever seems to give the reason why. So the question is: why? Is it because it lacks hardware decoding? I have a core i5-2500k, I'm sure I won't notice an fps drop in games, or will I? I vaguely remember hearing that the forte has additional processing on sounds from above below you (ie in the vertical axis) that would make it better in games. Is this the case? What does a sound card add to positional audio in games, apart from just dolby headphones/cmss3d? Is all dolby/cmss done equally? Could anyone possibly help me out it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks


 

 go for the new asus phoebus soundcard with 24bit dolby home theatre 4.. trust me on this one ..i am a professional dj signed to the ministry of sound anjunabeats armada and defected records..i own a villa in san antonio ibiza and i have got the best sound system on the island..it comprisers of the usually pioneer cdj2000s and midi unit nexus 900 and two mcintosh mt 10 turntables put through two krell evolution one monoblocks with westlake audio tower sm1 speakers..  i have got a reactable going through a krell fbi amp/pre combo then through a wilson audio thor's hammer which does the bass side of things and are all out side the building because the sub makes the walls shake and well if you haven't heard anything like that before it sounds off this ******* planet..now let's get back to the soundcard the pc i am using now has got dolby home theatre 3 and sounds very good with games like crysis2.. i have always said to myself that a 24bit dolby home theatre would be out of this world..in the press the other day the asus phoebus was announced..  i am doing a new build soon and that will be on the top of my wishlist.. i am waiting for the new ivy bridge and the new amd 7990 graphics cards to come out so i can finally play battlefield 3 on ultra 120fps maxed out with no slow down what so ever fingers crossed.. p.s get the newest thing that is coming out the phoebus my friend if you want the best possible sound you can get..you will be kicking yourself after woulds if you don't.. trust me on this one..


----------



## Roller

SQ wise, the X-Fi Forte is indeed an improvement over the regular X-Fi Titanium, but its improvements are mainly on SQ itself, sound positioning and audio features have near similar performance. And yes, disregard the Meridian since it doesn't have the X-Fi DSP within, making the card of little to no interest for gaming purposes.
   
  Ideally you should get the X-Fi Titanium HD, as that is indeed the pinnacle of sound cards when it comes to gaming, but if you can't stretch your budget to accomodate that purchase or wait longer to save some money in order to get it, then the X-Fi Forte would be the middle ground to go with, if you intend on keeping the card for a long time.
   
  EDIT: Remember, hamzatm, if gaming audio performance is what you're truly looking for, you need a X-Fi powered card (XtremeAudio excluded as it isn't a true X-Fi card, lacking the X-Fi DSP), which excludes both the Meridian and all Asus cards.


----------



## maverickronin

I've been away from this sort of thing for a while but has Creative learned how to write drivers yet?


----------



## hamzatm

OK thanks a lot Roller, all taken into account. And Martin, I saw the press release on the Phoebus, but the first thing that came to my mind is that it's gna be hella expensive  Any other opinions people?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> I've been away from this sort of thing for a while but has Creative learned how to write drivers yet?


 


  One can only dream 
   
  If only they licensed their tech at more affordable prices...


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





roller said:


> One can only dream
> 
> If only they licensed their tech at more affordable prices...


 
   
  So in other words it doesn't matter how many cool features it has because getting it to work will be a crapshoot...
   
  There wouldn't happen to be a Creative equivalent to the Asus Unified Drivers or something would there?  I guessing not but it doesn't hurt to ask...


----------



## our martin

..


----------



## our martin

if it's going to be expensive save up for it then..and to the one can only dream remark..i am a professional dj and i do all the trance nation cds and it's just what comes with it my friend..


----------



## hamzatm

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> So in other words it doesn't matter how many cool features it has because getting it to work will be a crapshoot...
> 
> There wouldn't happen to be a Creative equivalent to the Asus Unified Drivers or something would there?  I guessing not but it doesn't hurt to ask...


 


   
 I'm assuming you gotta be pro with a pc to get that shiz to work. Not a problem for someone doing a computer science degree hopefully


----------



## hamzatm

Quote: 





our martin said:


> if it's going to expensive save up for it then..and to the one can only dream remark..i am a professional dj and i do all the trance nation cds and it's just what comes with it my friend..


 


   
 A good idea possibly.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> So in other words it doesn't matter how many cool features it has because getting it to work will be a crapshoot...
> 
> There wouldn't happen to be a Creative equivalent to the Asus Unified Drivers or something would there?  I guessing not but it doesn't hurt to ask...


 


  There are a couple different modded driver releases out there, but they mostly use Creative's driver base. My main issue with some of those modded drivers is lack of disclosure on the differences between stock and modded drivers.
   
  And once you have the whole setup set properly, it won't give any further headaches


----------



## obobskivich

I've actually never had issues with the Creative drivers - this is across all three generations of my Sound Blaster cards. Wouldn't bother with 3rd-party mod drivers (at least for Creative). They ignore the DE, but what else is new? (Asus doesn't even conform that, everything has to look like a power ranger these days).
  Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> I've been away from this sort of thing for a while but has Creative learned how to write drivers yet?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> I've actually never had issues with the Creative drivers - this is across all three generations of my Sound Blaster cards. Wouldn't bother with 3rd-party mod drivers (at least for Creative). They ignore the DE, but what else is new? (Asus doesn't even conform that, everything has to look like a power ranger these days).


 


  Same here, well before Sound Blaster Live cards came out, Creative drivers just installed and worked. I personally have had next to no issues with them, but there have been quite some reports on issues, although those seem to happen with frantic tweaking of options, making my point of set and forget somewhat valid


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> everything has to look like a power ranger these days


 

 Pretty much everything, OS included, already look like that anyway...


----------



## SniperCzar

My one issue with Creative drivers is my soundcard straight up fails to be recognized in Windows whenever the AutoUpdate tries to run, and I have to completely reinstall them. It's happened three times, I just completely block the updater from running now...


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





our martin said:


> blahblahblahblahblahblah
> 
> i am waiting for the new ivy bridge and the new amd 7990 graphics cards to come out so i can finally play battlefield 3 on ultra 120fps maxed out with no slow down what so ever fingers crossed.. p.s get the newest thing that is coming out the phoebus my friend if you want the best possible sound you can get..you will be kicking yourself after woulds if you don't.. trust me on this one..


 
   
  Just wondering... if you're that big into having the best gear, why wouldn't you wait until the Nvidia 6xx series comes out? The fact that they haven't tried to seriously cut prices in response to the AMD announcement means they must have something BIG up their sleeve.
   
  As to the reactable, those are pretty sweet, but they're incredibly limited use. This is coming from someone who's built a 42" multitouch display before with fiducial support too, I just can't see why you'd spend that much money for a closed-source system that's such a one-trick pony.


----------



## Roller

Asus Xonar Phoebus, the "best possible sound"? What a load of c***. Onkyo SE-300PCIE topples that Asus toy.
   
  EDIT: While you're at it, our martin, why don't you put together dual Xeons with 4 GTX 580 and 128GB of memory? That will allow you to play your games /rolleyes
   
  Going on about how his dolby home theater 3 sound card does this and that, when in fact there isn't a single sound card with that *software* suite.
   
  Seriously, that kind of talk is boring/ridiculous to say the least.


----------



## our martin

roller there is nothing boring or ridiculous in what i have just said.. if dolby home theatre wasn't any good they wouldn't be putting it in a 2012 24 bit soundcard..this year it's all going 120fps with all the new super oled tvs and monitors..the gtx 580s are older cards..i am making this build as future proof as i can..the latest graphic cards like the 7990 are being made and the new ivy bridge so that battlefield3 and newer games like crysis3 will run at 120fps with everything turned up on ultra with out any slow down. and everything will be sounding a lot better with the new soundcards..games will look and sound better than ever when all of the latest technology comes out this year..fingers crossed..and sniperczar i will have to wait for the new super oled and ivy bridge to come out so if the nvidia is a better card than the amd card i will be getting that one instead..thanks for your comments!


----------



## Roller

First of all, there is no such thing as futureproof. And like I said before, there isn't any sound card that has that Dolby Home Theater software package that comes with onboard audio chips. Claming a non X-Fi powered sound card is the best for gaming is ridiculous. And yes, gloating is boring.
   
  EDIT: BTW, the GTX580s are faster than a HD7990. Mind you, I'm talking about serious SLI configs.


----------



## our martin

i will be getting the beyerdynamic headzone game for late night gaming my friend..and through the day time i will be using a pioneer susano av receiver with s81 surround sound 7.1 speakers and it probably wouldn't matter what soundcard i got.. i will be getting the phoebus just to make sure..


----------



## Roller

That Beyerdynamic gear is sweet indeed, good choice there. And you are using some rather interesting gear alongside that. But getting an Asus soundcard for gaming purposes is not the way to go. For music, well that's a different subject. But like I said before, if you actually want to get the best sound card your money can buy, you should get the Onkyo SE-300PCIE, as it surpasses every single Asus card available, especially for gaming, due to the card using the full blown X-Fi DSP chip.


----------



## our martin

with a good sennheiser headset the phoebus won't be far off the beyerdynamic headzone game.. if you are after the best value for money best possible sound card for gaming the phoebus will be the one to get!


----------



## SniperCzar

Martin, you do realize what an X-Fi chipset is, right?


----------



## our martin

no i have read about it but never heard one myself.. it's some kind of 3d sound card isn't it but i am not sure i am in england you see.. i have a macbook pro and i use a adl dac/headphone amp with that but i am new to gaming on pcs.. i have came from consoles..


----------



## Roller

If you're new to PC gaming, you're really in no position to saying what is and isn't the best product to get, especially if it's gaming audio we're talking about.


----------



## our martin

well my macbook pro sounds very good with my dac/headphone amp and the pc i use for gaming has got dolby home theatre 3..the adl/dac combo sounds better..but for gaming i would prefer it with a combination of the two..24bit dolby home theatre would be nice. but i agree i have never heard the x-fi or the asus stx but i still know the sound i want..and the phoebus should give me it hopefully!


----------



## Roller

You might know the sound you want, but if you even remotely want to game and don't go with a X-Fi powered card, you can forget about quality gaming audio, everything else is basically at the same level of onboard audio chips in comparison.
   
  EDIT: And no, Macs aren't gaming platforms.


----------



## ninjikiran

people say the realizer is better than the beyer surround option.
   
  Its also slightly more expensive.


----------



## our martin

i don't use the mac for gaming.though it has a i7 processor and would probably play some games i have never tried..and ninjikiran i will check the realizer a8 out now thanks for the heads up..looks good and you can use any headphones which is a bonus! i think the phoebus will have dolby headphone but not sure..i might go for the a8 with a good pair of jh16 ear buds and yeti 24 bit mic or a better one now i am getting the a8 with the mic input.. the yeti being a usb mic..i have been reading the audiophiliac with steve guttenburg and i don't mean the one out of the police academy films..his reviews are spot on! i am getting the audeze lcd-3 now!


----------



## AxelCloris

Has anyone tired an Audinst HUD-mx1 through a Mixamp to get Dolby Headphone? It looks like the mx1 supports DTS over optical from a USB source so I'd be able to run into a Mixamp or the DSS and get that to output dolby headphone. Just wondering if that would work the way I think it will.


----------



## uhstronomy

I'm interested in buying the Creative Labs SB0790 PCI Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio Sound Card but apparently some of its features do not work with Vista, which is my operating system. Will X-Fi CMSS-3D Headphone work or not?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





uhstronomy said:


> I'm interested in buying the Creative Labs SB0790 PCI Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio Sound Card but apparently some of its features do not work with Vista, which is my operating system. Will X-Fi CMSS-3D Headphone work or not?


 

  
  That's the single X-Fi card you shouldn't buy. That's not a true X-Fi card, it lacks the DSP chip, therefore it has half the features of a X-Fi card, without any hardware acceleration at all. The minimum X-Fi card to get is the X-Fi Titanium.


----------



## ROBSCIX

The X-fi DSP really only matters to games that actually use EAX or OpenAL. 
  If a game has it's own internal audio effect engine which more and more games seem to be offering these days, then it is all about the straight sound quality of the card.
   
   
  Quote: 





uhstronomy said:


> I'm interested in buying the Creative Labs SB0790 PCI Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio Sound Card but apparently some of its features do not work with Vista, which is my operating system. Will X-Fi CMSS-3D Headphone work or not?


 


  If you are going with an X-fi it is better to buy a hardware based card, instead of a software based model.
  Go with this model instead-> Creative Labs Xtreme Gamer sound card
  On that site you linked to the better card is also cheaper, providing you have nothing against used or refurbished products.
  With that card CMSS-3D should work fine on Vista or above.
  You  can go with other models also, just make sure they have a true hardware DSP, if the gaming features are what you are after.


----------



## Roller

The X-Fi DSP chip is used on games that tap into the DirectSound3D HAL as well, without even a single mention of EAX.
   
  Like I said previously, any X-Fi card other than XtremeAudio models are what you want, uhstronomy.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





roller said:


> The X-Fi DSP chip is used on games that tap into the DirectSound3D HAL as well, without even a single mention of EAX.
> 
> Like I said previously, any X-Fi card other than XtremeAudio models are what you want, uhstronomy.


 

 The Directsound3D HAL was removed from Vista and above which is why people use the ALchemy for those older games.
  That DSP still has a place for those older games or for newer games which use OpenAL based effects.
  For gamers though, it is nice to have the features if required but the point is games that require them are few and far between it would seem.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





robscix said:


> The Directsound3D HAL was removed from Vista and above which is why people use the ALchemy for those older games.


 


  Everyone already has to use ALchemy, reenabling the HAL. Nothing new with that.


----------



## Phos

The dwindling number of games that support hardware audio is largely down to the proliferation of console ports (fmod and Xaudio are cross platfiorm, though there are some strange examples of console games running OpenAL like Mass Effect) and Creative being very difficult to work with.  They essentially want to have their cake and eat it too, they both own "Open"AL and the hardware that supports it.  
   
  Interestingly, OpenCl also doesn't seem to support "Time distance of arrival", which among other things means that if something happens far away there's no speed of sound delay before you hear it.  It also only supports one listener meaning the AI can't hear sounds in the same way as the player but I question how many developers would actually take advantage of it if OpenAL did, though I do question if it's a problem for split screen games.


----------



## ROBSCIX

OpenAL is open source and there are a few different organizations helping to develop it although CL has been doing alot in that development. 
  Directsound based effects are long gone..dead.
  OpenAL based effects sets such as EFX and other effects routines such as XAudio might be the future of this type of gaming effects.  Others think games will just resort to using their own effect engines.  Hard to say what the future will bring in this area.


----------



## Phos

Yeah, I read that and forgot to remove that bit.  It is open source, but it seems as though only Creative's own cards really support it.  
   
  Is XAudio2 comparable to DirectAudio in capability as in 3D audio?


----------



## Roller

DirectSound 3D based effects are all in use due to having been ported to OpenAL, and are still fully available through the use of wrappers.
   
  EFX might be a valid alternative for the future, XAudio is not.
   
  EDIT: OpenAL is supported in just about any audio device, but most only support it through software, while Creative hardware fully supports it through hardware, with the exception of XtremeAudio cards and their predecessors.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





phos said:


> Yeah, I read that and forgot to remove that bit.  It is open source, but it seems as though only Creative's own cards really support it.
> 
> Is XAudio2 comparable to DirectAudio in capability as in 3D audio?


 


  It is hard to say how things will play out.  Many think of XAudio2 as the successor to the direct sound API.  XACT is also another higher level audio API.
  EFX, EAX...etc are all effects sets that can run on different API's.  They can use this XA2 API for Windows based games or Xbox based games as it is developed by MS.
   
  It is hard to say if games will start moving back to hardware card based effects or just keep using software based in game effect engines. Fewer and fewer games are actually using hardware based effects though.  Something new may be developed or a new way to use an older API, hard to say which way things will go.


----------



## Roller

Let us hope hardware audio will gain new life in the near future, as hardware audio in games isn't solely for the resource usage purpose.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





roller said:


> Let us hope hardware audio will gain new life in the near future, as hardware audio in games isn't solely for the resource usage purpose.


 


  It might, OpenAL is still in full swing development.
  I agree though, resource usage isn't the main concern anymore.  I find dedicated DSP produce more refined effects in comparison to many software engines I have heard but that is just my opinion.  CL's reverb engine is known to be a high end model though as their DSP chips originate in the audio recording field Via' EMU.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





robscix said:


> It might, OpenAL is still in full swing development.
> I agree though, resource usage isn't the main concern anymore.  I find dedicated DSP produce more refined effects in comparison to many software engines I have heard but that is just my opinion.  CL's reverb engine is known to be a high end model though as their DSP chips originate in the audio recording field Via' EMU.


 


  Precisely where I was going with, hardware audio is indeed of higher quality.
   
  About OpenAL, it's a rather powerful platform, but there have been some developers not wanting to go the extra mile in order to provide gamers with high quality audio, be it from effect quality, sound positioning, the works, and instead going with pure software engines for convenience's sake, ending up sacrificing more than desired.
   
  EFX will only really take off once one or many major developers go on board with it or Creative decides to shift focus from EAX to EFX, IMO.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





phos said:


> Is XAudio2 comparable to DirectAudio in capability as in 3D audio?


 

 Not when sound is described in terms of 7.1 speaker positions and volume/loudness thereof. This post on the Creative forums sums it up.
   
  I have to admit, this lith fellow largely inspired me to write this guide in the first place, and hopefully get the attention of PC game developers in terms of wanting true 3D sound in our games.


----------



## Phos

Quote:


roller said:


> Precisely where I was going with, hardware audio is indeed of higher quality.
> 
> About OpenAL, it's a rather powerful platform, but there have been some developers not wanting to go the extra mile in order to provide gamers with high quality audio, be it from effect quality, sound positioning, the works, and instead going with pure software engines for convenience's sake, ending up sacrificing more than desired.
> 
> EFX will only really take off once one or many major developers go on board with it or Creative decides to shift focus from EAX to EFX, IMO.


 

 Creative themselves has described EAX as depreciated IIRC, I think they mostly still market it because there are still a lot of games that people play that use it.  The big problem seems to me that Creative hasn't really been pushing hardware audio support to developers, leaving Microsoft to convince all of them to switch to software 2D audio.  Creative overall is just bad at marketing, and bad at usability.  
   
  What I'm kind of surprised at is that in comparison to the really good graphics middlewares, no one has made a good sound middleware.  You think someone would make one that can take advantage of whatever the platform has available.  Does OpenAL have any kind of console support?  I know there's not going to be any hardware for it, but there are software implementations on PCs.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





phos said:


> Creative overall is just bad at marketing


 

 This times 10.
   
  OpenAL is cross platform, but it's not as dead easy to work with as pure software platforms, and development budgets tend to go more for photorealistic textures and advanced lighting rather than quality audio


----------



## ninjikiran

there is no real need for hardware audio in PC gaming.  There was once a time where the sound card would take over processing of once complicated procedures that would bog the CPU if it were to handle it and running a game at the same time.  Those days are loooonnnnggggg gone and what can be done in software with a core2duo is better than a cheap processing chip on a sound card.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> there is no real need for hardware audio in PC gaming.  There was once a time where the sound card would take over processing of once complicated procedures that would bog the CPU if it were to handle it and running a game at the same time.  Those days are loooonnnnggggg gone and what can be done in software with a core2duo is better than a cheap processing chip on a sound card.


 


  You clearly haven't been following on either the thread or what hardware audio actually does, besides resource management, have you?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> there is no real need for hardware audio in PC gaming.  There was once a time where the sound card would take over processing of once complicated procedures that would bog the CPU if it were to handle it and running a game at the same time.  Those days are loooonnnnggggg gone and what can be done in software with a core2duo is better than a cheap processing chip on a sound card.


 

 My concern isn't to have hardware-accelerated audio back so much as to have true 3D positional sound back, which was coincidentally more common back when hardware-accelerated sound was a must-have in gaming PCs.
   
  The problem there is that I have yet to find a game that does binaural audio in software better than CMSS-3D Headphone from a true X-Fi card on DirectSound3D and OpenAL games. (Before you mention Rapture3D, that's just a software OpenAL driver, so it ties in the same way.) The current middleware solutions in widespread use assume that headphones are only good for left/right panning (stereo), and that 7.1 speakers are as "surround" as it gets. They're doing it wrong, and yet not only do game developers not care, but gamers themselves don't care either, save for the few of us here on Head-Fi.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> My concern isn't to have hardware-accelerated audio back so much as to have true 3D positional sound back, which was coincidentally more common back when hardware-accelerated sound was a must-have in gaming PCs.
> 
> The problem there is that I have yet to find a game that does binaural audio in software better than CMSS-3D Headphone from a true X-Fi card on DirectSound3D and OpenAL games. (Before you mention Rapture3D, that's just a software OpenAL driver, so it ties in the same way.) The current middleware solutions in widespread use assume that headphones are only good for left/right panning (stereo), and that 7.1 speakers are as "surround" as it gets. They're doing it wrong, and yet not only do game developers not care, but gamers themselves don't care either, save for the few of us here on Head-Fi.


 


  Thing is, positional sound is something that tends to come with hardware accelerated audio. There is a rather huge game library that features acceptable, good and great implementations of 3D audio, but unfortunately the current outlook of gaming audio isn't so good.


----------



## ninjikiran

No I haven't, but its just sense.  Why waste time creating software to function on hardware that is limited to a small amount of people when you can write something that can also be used on multiple platforms by just sparing a few CPU cycles.  With that kind of logic we would still be doing math operations on a separate co-processor.
   
  For purposes of this thread only where we are talking about processing and changing a signal into something synthetic(CMSS-3d) it can all  be done in properly written software.  For purposes of an audiophile dac I am sure there are other benefits to having a DSP, or even a device like the astro mixamp that allows you to connect devices without the capabilities of processing the signal in the manner you would like.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> No I haven't, but its just sense.  Why waste time creating software to function on hardware that is limited to a small amount of people when you can write something that can also be used on multiple platforms by just sparing a few CPU cycles.  With that kind of logic we would still be doing math operations on a separate co-processor.
> 
> For purposes of this thread only where we are talking about processing and changing a signal into something synthetic(CMSS-3d) it can all  be done in properly written software.  For purposes of an audiophile dac I am sure there are other benefits to having a DSP, or even a device like the astro mixamp that allows you to connect devices without the capabilities of processing the signal in the manner you would like.


 


  You still don't understand that hardware audio isn't about resource usage alone. Hardware audio is of higher quality. I haven't mentioned CMSS or any surround virtualization tech a single time, they're not required for use and are an entirely separate thing. DirectSound3D/OpenAL hardware audio has all the required features by itself, while users can add their own additional features if they want.
   
  BTW, Astro Mixamp has a rather awful quality, and it's only going strong due to the lack of competition on its own niche market.


----------



## Roller

Like it was discussed previously, if there were more audio middleware options available, things might work the way you're suggesting, but until then, the only real option is to have high quality DSP chips to process audio the proper way.


----------



## ninjikiran

That I can agree with, CMSS-3d is better than even battlefield 3's solution to headphone audio.  I prefer the mixamp to any other solution I have listened to though.


----------



## Roller

It's just like the whole music situation. Some people love using Dolby Headphone for music listening, while I find it too artificial for my tastes. Gaming audio is also affected by the same artificial sounding effects when DH or CMSS is used, which is where proper audio renderers come into play, giving a complete 3D audio experience, with proper positional audio and crystal clear effects.
   
  Creative could've made a revolution in gaming audio even further if they weren't stubborn regarding tech licensing costs, and now every single gamer that actually knows the value of quality audio renderers suffers from that.


----------



## ninjikiran

Kinda depends on the source, music music sounds bad but a true dolby digtal stream sounds amazing.  I was watching sucker punch the extended cut on blu-ray and it sounded beautifully since it doesnt create an artificial hll for the music like most attempt to do with dolby headphone, just kind of works out like a cross feed.


----------



## Azathoth

Information overload for me, but a great read! Considering going back to a desktop rig now just for all those options.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





azathoth said:


> Information overload for me, but a great read! Considering going back to a desktop rig now just for all those options.


 

 Glad to see it helped, though I do know it's rather TL;DR in its current state. I have a habit of being very thorough.
   
  Now, if I knew how to make drop-down/"spoiler" boxes that only reveal their contents when clicked on this particular forum, that would make sifting through this guide to get to the desired section a lot easier...


----------



## hamzatm

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> My concern isn't to have hardware-accelerated audio back so much as to have true 3D positional sound back, which was coincidentally more common back when hardware-accelerated sound was a must-have in gaming PCs.
> 
> The problem there is that I have yet to find a game that does binaural audio in software better than CMSS-3D Headphone from a true X-Fi card on DirectSound3D and OpenAL games. (Before you mention Rapture3D, that's just a software OpenAL driver, so it ties in the same way.) The current middleware solutions in widespread use assume that headphones are only good for left/right panning (stereo), and that 7.1 speakers are as "surround" as it gets. They're doing it wrong, and yet not only do game developers not care, but gamers themselves don't care either, save for the few of us here on Head-Fi.


 

 If you do find one, be sure as hell to tell us! Post it in your guide


----------



## ROBSCIX

Most gamers I talk with use 5.1, although 7.1 is available it seems like more trouble then it is worth for PC usage.
  These days with Pro-Logic IIZ..and others the number of channels is expanding but what we might see on future games remains to be seen.


----------



## hamzatm

Quick question: If I switched from a xonar dg to a titanium hd would I get any benefit in strictly gaming positional audio for mw3? How about counter strike source? Thanks Basically what role would a true x fi dsp chip play in a software based sound system thingy?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





hamzatm said:


> If you do find one, be sure as hell to tell us! Post it in your guide


 

 You can count on that...the tough part is finding one to begin with!
   
  Quote: 





hamzatm said:


> Quick question: If I switched from a xonar dg to a titanium hd would I get any benefit in strictly gaming positional audio for mw3? How about counter strike source? Thanks Basically what role would a true x fi dsp chip play in a software based sound system thingy?


 
   
  You wouldn't get much of an improvement in those two games. When software-mixed 7.1 is all a game provides, I honestly can't tell enough of a difference between Dolby Headphone and CMSS-3D Headphone to recommend one over the other.
   
  The thing is, I still play a lot of games that depend on hardware-accelerated audio, so having the X-Fi DSP is important to me-not only for the EAX support, but also because CMSS-3D Headphone can provide 3D binaural sound instead of being limited to virtual 7.1. However, I have to accept the simple fact that a lot of people here only care about recent releases that just happen to use software audio because that's the current trend in the industry. I just wish the middlewares in use wouldn't exclusively cater to 5.1/7.1 speaker systems like they're the only things that matter for gaming audio.


----------



## hamzatm

So I could easily buy an auzentech meridian instead of a titanium hd? What exactly WOULD I miss out on? Thanks


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> You wouldn't get much of an improvement in those two games. When software-mixed 7.1 is all a game provides, I honestly can't tell enough of a difference between Dolby Headphone and CMSS-3D Headphone to recommend one over the other.
> The thing is, I still play a lot of games that depend on hardware-accelerated audio, so having the X-Fi DSP is important to me-not only for the EAX support, but also because CMSS-3D Headphone can provide 3D binaural sound instead of being limited to virtual 7.1. However, I have to accept the simple fact that a lot of people here only care about recent releases that just happen to use software audio because that's the current trend in the industry. I just wish the middlewares in use wouldn't exclusively cater to 5.1/7.1 speaker systems like they're the only things that matter for gaming audio.


 


  Correction there. Source based games improve significantly through as they are DirectSound3D based, getting better audio positioning, slightly higher quality sound effects and no surround downmixing. CoD MW3, on the other hand doesn't benefit nearly on the same level, unfortunately.
   
  And no, an Auzentech Meridian isn't capable of providing the SQ improvements on Source games such as Counter Strike Source since it lacks the hardware features.


----------



## ninjikiran

Dolby Headphone vs CMSS3d in Half Life 2.  From what I recall CMSS3d's elevation filter worked amazingly with that game. Best positioning than any other game I have ever played through headphones.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roller said:


> Correction there. Source based games improve significantly through as they are DirectSound3D based, getting better audio positioning, slightly higher quality sound effects and no surround downmixing. CoD MW3, on the other hand doesn't benefit nearly on the same level, unfortunately.


 

 I wasn't aware of this. What I do know is that they use the Miles Sound System as their middleware of choice, but I figured they didn't use the DirectSound3D passthrough part of it. (I know it does allow for DirectSound3D/EAX to some extent, because GTA:VC and SA also use it.) Regardless, I never thought to try and install ALchemy to the directories of Source-based games. Time to experiment!
   
  What complicates things further is that at least Portal has a "-snd_openal" command line flag that was mentioned in the update log, but I don't seem to hear the distinctly binaural presentation CMSS-3D Headphone has when presented with an OpenAL game. Maybe that's not quite the right game to show it off anyway.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I wasn't aware of this. What I do know is that they use the Miles Sound System as their middleware of choice, but I figured they didn't use the DirectSound3D passthrough part of it. (I know it does allow for DirectSound3D/EAX to some extent, because GTA:VC and SA also use it.) Regardless, I never thought to try and install ALchemy to the directories of Source-based games. Time to experiment!
> 
> What complicates things further is that at least Portal has a "-snd_openal" command line flag that was mentioned in the update log, but I don't seem to hear the distinctly binaural presentation CMSS-3D Headphone has when presented with an OpenAL game. Maybe that's not quite the right game to show it off anyway.


 


  Keep in mind that applying DirectSound3D usage to Source based games require advanced ALchemy configuration. An example:
   
  [Counter-Strike Source (Steam)]
 RegPath=HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Valve\Steam\InstallPath
 SubDir=steamapps\*\counter-strike source
 Buffers=5
 Duration=10
   
  Where you find "*", you must replace it with your Steam login username/email, otherwise it won't work. Also, do note that while unlikely that current ALchemy iterations can actually detect Steam games, manual settings have shown to be the option that yields the best results.
   
  About Portal, or other games that have both DirectSound3D and OpenAL, there isn't a general rule of OpenAL being the ideal choice (contrary to common sense, and only for games that have both renderers), since there have been many systems that default to software OpenAL, and while some games do allow for OpenAL renderer replacement, others just can't be worked around at the time of writing. Using the wrapper ends up allowing for both full audio options and surround features.


----------



## Phos

Once you have alchemy set up, how do you need to set up the game?  Does a directsound option appear?
   
   
  Also keep in mind that OpenAL and Directsound 3D are APIs, so if the developer is better at one than the other the results won't be equal.


----------



## Roller

Some games have audio settings unlocked, others have selectable audio renderers, and others automatically work with the highest level renderer available.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Actually, I don't even bother with the ALchemy GUI interface most of the time (except to check whether or not a game has presets); I just copy the dsound.dll and dsound.ini into the same folder as the game executable, making any buffer and duration tweaks to dsound.ini as necessary.
   
  While a lot of Miles Sound System games do have selectable audio renderers (Tribes 2 and presumably other Torque Game Engine titles, GTA: Vice City, PlanetSide), others don't (GTA: San Andreas, Source engine games). It's rather strange.


----------



## Roller

GTA: San Andreas and Source based games are good examples of games that automatically select the highest level audio renderer. Battlefield series is also known to have relatively complete audio settings as well as Unreal series.


----------



## Phos

So do some of the audio setting vanish from source games or do they just not do anything?


----------



## Roller

Vanish? I'm not sure I understand.


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





roller said:


> Vanish? I'm not sure I understand.


 


  Usually whenever you set a game to hardware audio all the in game options you really need are voice count and maybe one other thing.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





phos said:


> Usually whenever you set a game to hardware audio all the in game options you really need are voice count and maybe one other thing.


 


  Well, compared to graphical settings, audio settings aren't as diverse.
   
  And I still don't understand what you mean by audio settings vanishing from Source based games.


----------



## hamzatm

Learning new stuff all the time! I heard the upcoming Phoebus will have an inbuilt processor/chip that will "enhance directional cues" solely because of the quality and design of the chip itself or something like that. Sounds like it would improve on software based sound, right? Is this just a gimmick or does directional accuracy differ depending on some advanced processing the card does? I'm sorry about the seemingly ridiculous questions, I get that native x fi is basically the best for gaming when any sort of (or most) hardware based sound is used, but can different x fi cards differ on the directional audio accuracy based off the hardware design itself? Or does my question not even make sense because x fi hardware accelerated sound IS the hardware design itself? OK I confused myself. Basically, referring mainly to mw3, is there any way in hell that software based sound processing will sound better in terms of audio cues and directional accuracy when using a titanium HD over a c-media/whatever based card?


----------



## fustrun

Hey guys i just bought an ASUS ESSENSE STX soundcard an i was looking for some advice on a gaming headset, now i've read laz'y guide for headphones and i was just wondering if anything has changed thourgh the months ? i'm currently thinking about the PC360 from senhiser, what's the best one on the market?
 Now please do not suggest EARPHONES with an option to attach a mic! i'm looking for a HEADSET only !
 And last after haveing a headset and the STX sound card is there anything else i need for ultimate sound for games and movies ? such as a earphones amp or anything ?
 Or is this the ultimate setup?
 Thanks in advance !


----------



## ROBSCIX

I would suggest just going with a high quality set of headphones.  Not a "gaming" set as they usually have skewed frequency responses and/or lower quality in comparison.  A high end set of headphones will be good for everything you do.
  As to your other question, the STX has a built in headphone amplifier.


----------



## our martin

go for the senns headset because you need to hear the chopper on the battlefield my friend you will kick yourself if you don't the 360s are the ones to get..


----------



## obobskivich

Try either of the Left 4 Dead or Portal games, same settings. With "good soundstage" headphones (like the F1), it's uncanny. 
  Quote: 





ninjikiran said:


> Dolby Headphone vs CMSS3d in Half Life 2.  From what I recall CMSS3d's elevation filter worked amazingly with that game. Best positioning than any other game I have ever played through headphones.


 


   
  No, not that I recall. You just have certain options available, and you can select them or not depending on your hardware/software abilities. It's a lot like audio from DVD - you can run it through a stereo output and you give up quite a lot of features, but you don't actually lose anything from the signal; it's just less "good." If that makes any sense.
   
  There's not some "Nightmare Mode" secret menus that are enabled by having an X-Fi or Audigy (at least in not in any of the games I've ever played). It's just an improvement in overall quality (positioning, effects, and performance). 
  
  Quote: 





phos said:


> So do some of the audio setting vanish from source games or do they just not do anything?


----------



## our martin

razor have just brought out a 7.1 gaming headset called the tiamat and that will probably be the one to get over the sennheiser 360 because everything else they do is always getting very good reviews and giving logitech a run for it's money..but what ever you do make sure you get a 7.1 gaming headset and don't just go the stereo route because on the battlefield the chopper will cream you everytime!


----------



## fustrun

As i stated i WILL NOT be buying a headphone only a headset i know it wont sound as good as a pair of headphones.
 And i don't really trust Razer most of theyr headsets especially the latest 7.1 are pretty mediocore . . but i won't judge something untill i've tried it, and anyway i bought a soundcard to handle the dolby so a razer 7.1 won't work for me because i would be using the "dolby headphone" technology which works well only with stereo headphones (someone correct me if i'm wrong).
 So the except that the PC360 is the best there is ?
 And i only need my soundcard and my headphones and i'm golden?


----------



## Phos

Have you ever actually used a surround multidriver headset?  
   
  Edit: Was @ our martin


----------



## fustrun

Hmm no, but i've read that they are not very good in a few places and one of them being "Lazy's Dolby Headphones for Gaming guide" on this forum


----------



## our martin

go for the senns then and you will be suprised on the sound quality..come back on and tell us what you think of them! the best ones the beyerdynamic headset but it's not cheap..the pc360s will be a good choice and will give some good quality stereo headphones a run for there money..


----------



## LilBuck

Since you seem adamant about the not getting headphones + mic,  I would go with the Beyerdynamic MMX, the 770s are pretty solid headphones. Only thing is the STX works better with high impedence phones IIRC (I have one but am not the expert on that stuff) and the MMX 300 is the 32 ohm verion of the 770s, so maybe that isn't ideal?
   
  Another thing to consider is they are closed, for me personally I like open headphones when I am using a mic because it is hard to judge the volume of your voice otherwise.


----------



## our martin

the beyedynamic mmx are made for the headzone game..unless you want to spend up to two grand i would go for the pc360!


----------



## obobskivich

There are clip-on/add-on mics available; Zalman makes one that clips to the cord, and there's another one that mounts to the actual headphone (the AntLion ModMic. No point in buying "only a headset" - you'll pay a small fortune for a very mediocre microphone. 
  Quote: 





fustrun said:


> As i stated i WILL NOT be buying a headphone only a headset i know it wont sound as good as a pair of headphones.
> And i don't really trust Razer most of theyr headsets especially the latest 7.1 are pretty mediocore . . but i won't judge something untill i've tried it, and anyway i bought a soundcard to handle the dolby so a razer 7.1 won't work for me because i would be using the "dolby headphone" technology which works well only with stereo headphones (someone correct me if i'm wrong).
> So the except that the PC360 is the best there is ?
> And i only need my soundcard and my headphones and i'm golden?


 


   

 The STX uses the same TI chip that comes in a variety of products, and is spec'd to work with headphones from 32-600 ohms, as many of those products are. It will be fine. I agree with the MMX if there's no wiggle room on adding a mic; ridiculous price for DT770s though. 
  Quote: 





lilbuck said:


> Since you seem adamant about the not getting headphones + mic,  I would go with the Beyerdynamic MMX, the 770s are pretty solid headphones. Only thing is the STX works better with high impedence phones IIRC (I have one but am not the expert on that stuff) and the MMX 300 is the 32 ohm verion of the 770s, so maybe that isn't ideal?
> 
> Another thing to consider is they are closed, for me personally I like open headphones when I am using a mic because it is hard to judge the volume of your voice otherwise.


----------



## obobskivich

Nope. You can buy the MMX headsets by themselves (they terminate through a USB controller), and they work just fine by themselves.
  Quote: 





our martin said:


> the beyedynamic mmx are made for the headzone game..unless you want to spend up to two grand i would go for the pc360!


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> No, not that I recall. You just have certain options available, and you can select them or not depending on your hardware/software abilities. It's a lot like audio from DVD - you can run it through a stereo output and you give up quite a lot of features, but you don't actually lose anything from the signal; it's just less "good." If that makes any sense.
> 
> There's not some "Nightmare Mode" secret menus that are enabled by having an X-Fi or Audigy (at least in not in any of the games I've ever played). It's just an improvement in overall quality (positioning, effects, and performance).


 

  
  "Nightmare Mode"? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Games that use the Havok engine usually have Creative exclusive features, just like the Battlefield series, a few Star Wars games, Bioshock series, Mass Effect series, Serious Engine games, many Unreal Engine games, F.E.A.R. series, just to mention a few.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> There are clip-on/add-on mics available; Zalman makes one that clips to the cord, and there's another one that mounts to the actual headphone (the AntLion ModMic. No point in buying "only a headset" - you'll pay a small fortune for a very mediocre microphone.


 


  ^This.
   
  Also, USB headsets are to be avoided if the higher quality soundcard is to be used.


----------



## obobskivich

Mass Effect was a nightmare to configure (but I do recall the EAX menus from the first one), Bioshock series won't run for me due to DRM (I want my refund, GRRR!), haven't played any of the others. I'm just thinking of games like Halo, Hitman, and UT2004, which have a "Hardware EAX" option that you can tick on, but it's one of many options alongside other "audio" settings - when enabled it adds quite a few things, but it isn't like an entire secret sub-menu is activated when Creative hardware is detected.
  Quote: 





roller said:


> "Nightmare Mode"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> Mass Effect was a nightmare to configure (but I do recall the EAX menus from the first one), Bioshock series won't run for me due to DRM (I want my refund, GRRR!), haven't played any of the others. I'm just thinking of games like Halo, Hitman, and UT2004, which have a "Hardware EAX" option that you can tick on, but it's one of many options alongside other "audio" settings - when enabled it adds quite a few things, but it isn't like an entire secret sub-menu is activated when Creative hardware is detected.


 


  DRM is a bane, mostly for legitimate customers since the DRM target easily finds workarounds for that nuisance. But curiously, there are people working in the industry that are against it, as in recognizing that DRM is a draconian procedure that's ultimately doomed to fail. I mean, "always on" DRM? They better wake up for reality.
   
  When you said Nightmare Mode, I thought of Doom and its difficulty levels, but not in a difficulty sense by itself but on how it was the highest level. What I'm saying is that there are games that besides having hardware audio or EAX, they have the EAX features above the ones Creative made available for licensing, as in EAX 3 and above.
   
  But no, I haven't seen any blockbuster game having a dedicated menu for Creative hardware, but many with several advanced audio options, and a few exclusive to Creative hardware.


----------



## obobskivich

Yes I did mean Doom; was hoping people would get the reference (don't make me feel older than I am!). 
   
  Might have to get Hitman 2 or something out of the package again, see if it had any special options (it features EAX 4.0 Advanced HD, and was included with some of the Audigy cards as a promotional item; it's also fun to play unlike many of the other promotional games). Just checked the Mass Effect 2 configurator, I see the following options for Audio - "on" and "off" - not much else. It does "see" the X-Fi though. 
  
  Quote: 





roller said:


> DRM is a bane, mostly for legitimate customers since the DRM target easily finds workarounds for that nuisance. But curiously, there are people working in the industry that are against it, as in recognizing that DRM is a draconian procedure that's ultimately doomed to fail. I mean, "always on" DRM? They better wake up for reality.
> 
> When you said Nightmare Mode, I thought of Doom and its difficulty levels, but not in a difficulty sense by itself but on how it was the highest level. What I'm saying is that there are games that besides having hardware audio or EAX, they have the EAX features above the ones Creative made available for licensing, as in EAX 3 and above.
> 
> But no, I haven't seen any blockbuster game having a dedicated menu for Creative hardware, but many with several advanced audio options, and a few exclusive to Creative hardware.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> Yes I did mean Doom; was hoping people would get the reference (don't make me feel older than I am!).
> 
> Might have to get Hitman 2 or something out of the package again, see if it had any special options (it features EAX 4.0 Advanced HD, and was included with some of the Audigy cards as a promotional item; it's also fun to play unlike many of the other promotional games). Just checked the Mass Effect 2 configurator, I see the following options for Audio - "on" and "off" - not much else. It does "see" the X-Fi though.


 


  Hehe, age can be subjective 
   
  Well, my memory isn't so good but I think Mass Effect 2 is one of those games that have advanced features enabled in the background. I personally prefer to tick boxes or select the options myself  And I actually had an Audigy card that came with Hitman 2, that game being a very good use of EAX, even better than newer games that supported higher versions. After all, implementation can make up for a night and day difference, right? 
  A game that comes to mind about having a more complete audio settings menu is Battlefield 2142 (EAX 5), for instance. But basically all games from the series had higher than average sound options.
   
  EDIT: I think Hitman 2 supports EAX 3, as it was the first EAX Advanced HD version that appeared.


----------



## ROBSCIX

IIRC, BF2 also had advanced options for X-FI cards.


----------



## Roller

Battlefield 2 did get EAX support beyond Audigy 2/4 hardware through its latest patch. Still, I consider Battlefield 2142 and Bioshock as prime examples of what gaming audio is and should continue to be in the future.


----------



## obobskivich

You're gonna make me figure out the whole DRM debacle just to hear Bioshock, aren't you? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  Quote: 





roller said:


> Battlefield 2 did get EAX support beyond Audigy 2/4 hardware through its latest patch. Still, I consider Battlefield 2142 and Bioshock as prime examples of what gaming audio is and should continue to be in the future.


----------



## Phos

Just download a crack, why should you have to bother sorting it out if it's something their DRM caused?  You bought the game, right?
  
  Quote: 





roller said:


> Hehe, age can be subjective
> 
> Well, my memory isn't so good but I think Mass Effect 2 is one of those games that have advanced features enabled in the background. I personally prefer to tick boxes or select the options myself  And I actually had an Audigy card that came with Hitman 2, that game being a very good use of EAX, even better than newer games that supported higher versions. After all, implementation can make up for a night and day difference, right?
> A game that comes to mind about having a more complete audio settings menu is Battlefield 2142 (EAX 5), for instance. But basically all games from the series had higher than average sound options.
> ...


 

  
  I had no problem with audio in Mass Effect 1, I just set it to use OpenAL and it worked.  
   
  And I'm still trying to figure out if ALchemy does anything to TF2.


----------



## obobskivich

I purchased both BioShock games, and can play neither - due to this thread I've sent an email to 2K about the sequel (I had the first one working on my older computer, and did complete it; it was a brilliant game, had nowhere near the audio equipment I have now though). Tried a crack and it still refused to work; got frustrated and ripped all 10GB off of the disk. Will probably try re-installing it and seeing if that works; it's probably something to do with Steam vs GFWL (Fallout 3 was nearly as bad, but thankfully there's a mod that removes GFWL and that solved all of my problems). 
   
  Mass Effect's audio works fine for me, I've just never seen any extended menus - the only games I have that make a big "to do" about EAX are Halo, the Hitman series (I forget if the first game has an EAX mode, I know the other three do), some Tomb Raider game from forever ago, and probably a bunch that I'm forgetting. A lot of my other games do support EAX, but it's usually just a single-line "EAX on" option. Couldn't help you with TF2; sorry (given that it's also Source, I'd assume it would benefit much the same way HL2, Portal, Portal 2, etc do). 
  Quote: 





phos said:


> Just download a crack, why should you have to bother sorting it out if it's something their DRM caused?  You bought the game, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Phos

Do you use ALchemy with source games?  How do you set them up?


----------



## obobskivich

I just set them (the games) to "Headphones" and go with it. If there's a "better" positional quality than that, I'm not interested - Left 4 Dead 2's audio is already scary enough! (It can't get anymore "creepy coming up behind you to kill you" than it already is, and if it could, it would probably mean manifesting the damned thing in my room!). I've never actually bothered with any ALchemy prompts/installers, but I do know that my driver package is different than most X-Fi/Audigy users' (I use an Auzen card), and I have installed the entire package (from Auzen's website, the package is integrated into my drivers, but I have nothing I can "see" about it; I do remember from an older X-Fi card having a lot more "stuff" I could open and screw with related to the X-Fi (this was also under Vista Ultimate, to give you an idea of how long ago this was)). 
   
  This might be interesting to read:
  http://connect.creativelabs.com/alchemy/Lists/ALchemy%20XFi/Flat.aspx?RootFolder=%2falchemy%2fLists%2fALchemy%20XFi%2fSource%20Engine%20games%20and%20Vista%2064bit&FolderCTID=0x012002002777EF627E9A314B8E181038B290215D
  Quote: 





phos said:


> Do you use ALchemy with source games?  How do you set them up?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





obobskivich said:


> You're gonna make me figure out the whole DRM debacle just to hear Bioshock, aren't you?


 


  If you have a soundcard with a proper X-Fi DSP in it, you're definitely missing out on a very impressive aural experience. Just saying 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  And I actually agree with Phos. There are many people that use modified exe files on their legit games in order to avoid wearing out the medium.
   
  And yes, just like virtually all other Source based games, Team Fortress 2 does benefit from ALchemy since it is a DirectSound3D enabled game. 
  My earlier post (http://www.head-fi.org/t/593050/the-nameless-guide-to-pc-gaming-audio-with-binaural-headphone-surround-sound/315#post_8190762) showed how to set Steam enabled games on ALchemy. Just replace "counter-strike source" with "team fortress 2".


----------



## Phos

Will it work if I set it via the file path rather than the registry key?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





phos said:


> Will it work if I set it via the file path rather than the registry key?


 


  Why would you want to do that? Steam has one of the pickiest folder systems that ever existed. For just about all normal software (including games), I'd recommend going with file paths, but Steam is the exception.


----------



## Phos

All the games still get their own directories so it's not hard to configure.  I just end up with dsound.dll and dsound.ini in the same directory as hl2.exe or whatever the game's exe is.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





phos said:


> All the games still get their own directories so it's not hard to configure.  I just end up with dsound.dll and dsound.ini in the same directory as hl2.exe or whatever the game's exe is.


 


  I've said my piece. You do whatever you want.


----------



## Phos

Sorry, what I mean is that I'm trying to figure out if how I have it set up is working properly. I still have the option to set how many speakers to use which is uncommon when a game is using hardware sound, and if it is working, I don't know what to do with the speaker settings.


----------



## Roller

I don't find speaker selection availability to be odd when hardware audio is used from a logical point of view, since it's mainly about using an ideal audio renderer, that doesn't necessarily imply having settings automatically chosen for you.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roller said:


> I don't find speaker selection availability to be odd when hardware audio is used from a logical point of view, since it's mainly about using an ideal audio renderer, that doesn't necessarily imply having settings automatically chosen for you.


 

 Agreed. The way I look at it is that it's the sound device driver that determines where and how to play back sounds based on its settings, not the game or application.
   
  3D audio the way it was done by DirectSound3D and OpenAL was kind of futureproof, if you think about it. Because they didn't assume any given speaker configuration, newer sound devices with more output channels and the ability to tell the driver how you have all of those speakers arranged in your room would be quite feasible. If you look on Wikipedia, you'll see some crazy speaker configurations like 10.2 (exactly what it sounds like, with height channels and stereo subwoofers) floating around that could work in theory.
   
  But no, the industry says "7.1 surround sound like in movies is good enough", and that's the end of it. Nobody knows the difference, and nobody cares. I hope this guide changes that.
   
  For that matter, I've noticed something with HD game remakes. A lot of them don't use DirectSound3D for obvious reasons, but instead of going for OpenAL, they use XAudio2 + X3DAudio, so while the game looks nicer, it sounds worse...*sighs*


----------



## Phos

Really movies should have switched over to storing their sound in a high order ambisonic format so they they could be played back over any number of speakers.  It only needs four channels.


----------



## obobskivich

Movie mixing and game audio are much different - games can "scale" quite easily (and there is no formally agreed upon 9.1/11.1 (or .x) configuration - Yamaha, Harman, Audyssey, Dolby, DTS, and Sony all have slightly different ideas of how it should be done; each has its own advantages and disadvantages - currently nothing accepts such a discrete signal, so if you have one of those processors you're going through a matrix (and this is less than ideal with game audio ime)). I don't think "high order ambisonic formats" would work with movies any better; a 5.1 encode can easily be played back over any number of speakers with modern(ish) technology, and it works pretty well.


----------



## Phos

The real benefit to the ambisonic formats is how flexible it is, it can be played back over a 5.1 system, or any set up of speakers, and it could be mixed via an HRTF profile into binaural audio with elevation. There are already games that use this technology, that's how rapture3D works, and supposedly the console versions of Dirt 2 also use ambisonic audio internally.


----------



## obobskivich

Yes but with movies, what you're describing can already be done, and is done by modern processors. And has been this way since the mid 1990s.
  
  Quote: 





phos said:


> The real benefit to the ambisonic formats is how flexible it is, it can be played back over a 5.1 system, or any set up of speakers, and it could be mixed via an HRTF profile into binaural audio with elivation. There are already games that use this technology, that's how rapture3D works, and supposedly the console versions of Dirt 2 also use ambisonic audio internally.


----------



## Ilya--s

Nice guide!
I recorded some in-game videos half-year ago here.
It's a Comparison between DH & CMSS3D-headphone.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Great videos, Ilya-s!
   
  I've actually amended the guide to feature them under some of the prominent binaural surround filters, so people can get an idea of how well they work in a few popular games. Fortunately, there's enough English in the main post that I don't think language barriers will be an issue in terms of getting the videos and letting people decide for themselves.


----------



## Ilya--s

Thanks, NamelessPFG!
I think EFX10Show (from OpenAL SDK) is also a good tool to check positional accuracy and efx/eax effects. Interface isn't so user-friendly though.


----------



## Roller

NamelessPFG, have you thought about putting download links for useful resources, such as OpenAL libraries and Creative caps viewer?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ilya--s said:


> Thanks, NamelessPFG!
> I think EFX10Show (from OpenAL SDK) is also a good tool to check positional accuracy and efx/eax effects. Interface isn't so user-friendly though.


 

 You're welcome!
   
  I can't say I've heard of EFX10Show before, but that's because I never fiddled with the OpenAL SDK. It wouldn't hurt to have more options than RightMark 3DSound's positioning accuracy test for our purposes.
   
  Quote: 





roller said:


> NamelessPFG, have you thought about putting download links for useful resources, such as OpenAL libraries and Creative caps viewer?


 

 If I can find/remember the links to those things, I'll update the guide.


----------



## mindstarr

Hello NamelessFPG,
   
  I have been discussing my potential setup with MLE and others on the thread linked at the bottom of this post but also very interested in your opinion (MLE pointed me in your direction as I listen via a PC).
   
  MLE has suggested Denon D2000 for my headphone purposes (combination of electro music and gaming) but also made suggestions relating to amp/soundcard and DAC.
   
  I am a complete noob and have no idea what these things do or how they relate to each other and the headphones. Normally I'd just expect to plug the phones into the back of my PC and away I'd go. I now understand you get more out of a great pair of headphones if you use a good amp as well, but there seem to be all these other things to add as well: DAC, Mixamp, PC soundcard upgrade etc.
   
  MLE and others recommend an O2 amp, but I don't know if this will work with my PC, if it's superfluous, or even how to connect something like that to my PC to get the most out of it. MLE also seems to be a big fan of the Mixamp but commented that I can get a soundcard for my PC which does the same thing  (Asus Xonar Essence STX) so frankly I have no idea what to do next.     
   
  Please help me understand what I need to do to just enjoy some great sound out of my PC without going crazy with wires and matt black boxes connected to each other all over my desk.
   
  Please help! Thanks in advance.
   
http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-w-dolby-headphone-updated-2-19-2012-petition-added/4515#post_8203819


----------



## Roller

Honestly I think you should take out the Mixamp out of the equation, as it is a rather low quality device and go with a quality soundcard and an external amp. And if you do plan on doing serious gaming, you should get a Creative X-Fi Titanium HD instead of the Asus Xonar Essence STX. You will both pay less and have the absolutely complete gaming audio features set, which the Essence STX lacks, and that includes full hardware OpenAL, EAX 1-5, audio algorithms that help positional audio without depending on artificial surround virtualization solutions, etc.
   
  So basically you should just get a X-Fi Titanium HD and an external amp of your choice. The amp choice will depend on the gear used. What headphones do you have?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> If I can find/remember the links to those things, I'll update the guide.


 


  Let me know when you do because there are a few resources versions newer than the latest versions found on the sites.


----------



## mindstarr

Hi Roller,
  No final decision yet on headphones but likely one of: Denon D2/5/7000, AKG K550/Q702  or Beyerdynamic DT-770 or 990.
  Leaning to either Denon D2000 or D7000 most heavily right now.  
  If I got one of the above headphones and also a soundcard like XFi Titanium HD as you suggest, would I still need a separate amp? How would I connect the amp to the soundcard? 
  Is the point of the Mixamp not to provide 5.1 surround? In the setup you suggest does the XFi Titanium card do that instead?
  Many thanks for the help.


----------



## Roller

Well mindstarr, the D7000 is on a league of its own compared to the other headphones you mentioned. But all those headphones benefit from additional amping, something that the X-Fi Titanium HD doesn't do by itself (additional amping, as it already amps to some extent, something that's offset for having unparallel gaming support), so adding a headphone amp is recommended. There are many amps available, and when matching something like a D2000/D5000/D7000, a more neutral amp would be a better option, so something like a Schiit Asgard could be a good choice.
  To connect the amp to the soundcard, just connect it to the line-out RCA jacks of the soundcard.
   
  I personally find the Mixamp to be awful, a device whose only purpose is to be used with gaming consoles that can't have proper audio hardware installed.


----------



## SniperCzar

I'm thorougly enjoying using my X-Fi with an E17. Has a lot of other uses outside gaming as well (takes digital in from my laptop, line out from my iPod, and soon I'll have USB out via Android tablet working)

 Might be weaker than desktop amps and too much feature for your needs though, depending on what you buy/your sources.


----------



## mindstarr

That's great - thank you


----------



## Danny0990

I'm looking at the asus xonar dg right now for dolby headphone. Is there another sound card with dolby headphone that you guys can recommend me?
   
   
  Edit: How do the beyers 990 premium/pro sounds with CMSS-3D? I would switch to CMSS-3D if it can contain the high treble the beyers 990 seem to have. DH smoothed out the knife piercing highs for me.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I don't have a Beyerdynamic DT990 to do comparisons with, sorry.
   
  However, you might be able to do some comparisons yourself using these videos. If that doesn't work out and the treble still bugs you, you can always try toning it down using the EQ.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





danny0990 said:


> I'm looking at the Asus Xonar DG right now for Dolby headphone. Is there another sound card with Dolby headphone that you guys can recommend me?
> Edit: How do the Beyers 990 premium/pro sounds with CMSS-3D? I would switch to CMSS-3D if it can contain the high treble the Beyers 990 seem to have. DH smoothed out the knife piercing highs for me.


 
  The Asus Xonar DG ($30) can decently power Beyerdynamic DT990 250-Ohm headphones, not the best choice for amping 250-ohm headphones.
  The Xonar DS. DX, D1 are worst for powering 250-Ohm headphones then the DG.
  One option is to get the Fiio E9  headphone amplifier and plug it into the DG sound card and use the E9 to drive the DT990s.


----------



## Danny0990

I have the lyr to power the beyers. I just want to make sure I wont be going brain dead when it amps their notorious highs lol
   
  Atm Im using the mixamp for DH but I want to switch out of it.
   
   
  Edit: The HT Omega Halo XT looks very promising. I think I'm going to give that a trial run.


----------



## mindstarr

Very interested in people's opinions on the best amping options for K550 or D2000. 
  Would the Fiio E9 or E10 improve sound quality if source is Creative X-Fi Titanium HD? 
  What other amps might work well with this setup?


----------



## btkramer

I realize this is a bit of a noobish question, but I am just getting back into PC gaming after a few years break. I have been looking into 3D sound recently, comparing Dolby Headphone and CMSS-3D. The comparison seems to be moot however, as it appears that most new games have their own 3D sound engine. My two questions therefore are:
   
  1. Does it not matter AT ALL what your sound hardware is, as far as achieving the 3D sound effect goes, for games that have their own 3D sound engine? (I do realize actual SQ will vary according to the hardware.) My current sound setup on my laptop does not support any type of surround at all. The only speaker options I have are 2.1 speakers and headphones. Would I not need a sound card that lets me at least select 5.1 surround for the game's 3D sound engine to kick in and start giving me 3D sound in my headphones?
   
  2. Will any set of headphones give the same performance, regardless of the 3D sound engine (Or other tech, like DH or CMSS-3D)? In other words, is it possible for a particular set of headphones to work well with one technology, producing a nice 3D sound effect, but not work well with another?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





mindstarr said:


> Very interested in people's opinions on the best amping options for K550 or D2000.
> Would the Fiio E9 or E10 improve sound quality if source is Creative X-Fi Titanium HD?
> What other amps might work well with this setup?


 
  First off, the T-HD (Titanium HD) already has a decent DAC, so really do not need the E10.
  The T-HD does not have a true headphone amplifier, but does a fairly decent job of powering headphones.
  So you should at least try the headphone(s) plugged straight into the T-HD first.
  The Fiio E9 works better with headphones 80 to 100-Ohms or higher, and the Denon AH-D2000 is only 25-Ohms.


----------



## mindstarr

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> First off, the T-HD (Titanium HD) already has a decent DAC, so really do not need the E10.
> The T-HD does not have a true headphone amplifier, but does a fairly decent job of powering headphones.
> So you should at least try the headphone(s) plugged straight into the T-HD first.
> The Fiio E9 works better with headphones 80 to 100-Ohms or higher, and the Denon AH-D2000 is only 25-Ohms.


 

 What do you think about the HRT Headstreamer as DAC/Amp combo vs the T-HD?
http://www.head-fi.org/t/597886/review-hrt-headstreamer-asynchronous-usb-dac-amp


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





mindstarr said:


> What do you think about the HRT Headstreamer as DAC/Amp combo vs the T-HD?
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/597886/review-hrt-headstreamer-asynchronous-usb-dac-amp


 
  The HRT Headstreamer does not offer any surround sound features for gaming and movies.
  But as someone who has never used the HRT, I may not be the best person to advise on it.
  But I'm going "guess" it would work well enough for you.
  and as an external, it's much easier to move around and use with different source(s).


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





btkramer said:


> I realize this is a bit of a noobish question, but I am just getting back into PC gaming after a few years break. I have been looking into 3D sound recently, comparing Dolby Headphone and CMSS-3D. The comparison seems to be moot however, as it appears that most new games have their own 3D sound engine. My two questions therefore are:
> 
> 1. Does it not matter AT ALL what your sound hardware is, as far as achieving the 3D sound effect goes, for games that have their own 3D sound engine? (I do realize actual SQ will vary according to the hardware.) My current sound setup on my laptop does not support any type of surround at all. The only speaker options I have are 2.1 speakers and headphones. Would I not need a sound card that lets me at least select 5.1 surround for the game's 3D sound engine to kick in and start giving me 3D sound in my headphones?
> 
> 2. Will any set of headphones give the same performance, regardless of the 3D sound engine (Or other tech, like DH or CMSS-3D)? In other words, is it possible for a particular set of headphones to work well with one technology, producing a nice 3D sound effect, but not work well with another?


 

 1. - The problem is that games that have a software-driven sound engine do NOT have a binaural headphone mixing option. Apparently, to the developers of XAudio2 + X3DAudio, FMOD Ex, and the like, headphones are only good for one-dimensional, left-to-right panning, with no sense of front and rear or up and down. That is why we go to great lengths to use CMSS-3D Headphone or Dolby Headphone; at the very least, two-dimensional virtual 7.1 is better than not having front and rear cues at all.
   
  2. - I had the general impression that CMSS-3D Headphone and Dolby Headphone both work about as well on any given headphone; that is to say, either a headphone works great with both or works badly with both. However, upon closer inspection (as noticed over in Mad Lust Envy's thread), Dolby Headphone tends to be more bass-emphasized while CMSS-3D Headphone is a bit more treble-emphasized, and without EQing the tonal balance back to neutral, this could skew with the headphone's own sound signature and the user's listening preferences.


----------



## Phos

All a headphone needs is good high frequency extension.  HRTF's work by adding in a treble cleft (yes, "cleft", not clef) at whatever frequency corresponds to that angle.  That's the simple version.


----------



## maverickronin

Plus the timing differences between ears.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I just edited the guide to include Rapture3D, which I didn't think about too much before, but now that I've figured out how to get it working for binaural mixing (unfortunately, the method runs counter to what is needed to get XAudio2 and FMOD Ex titles to provide surround information), I can do some testing with it. Only good for OpenAL games, though.
   
  More testing and experiences from other people would be appreciated. In fact, experience and suggested settings for non-X-Fi cards (that I don't own and can't afford to buy just for the sake of improving the guide) would be appreciated and allow me to improve the guide.


----------



## Ilya--s

Rapture3D is really great thing. Interesting, how good is built-in SRC in this - It doesn't load CPU too much (tested hardware X-fi vs Rapure3D in DIRT2 benchmark - didn't find a big difference in the results)


----------



## Roller

Frame rate wise, there has been reports of frame rate drops up to 15fps when using Rapture3D in ultra mode. Do keep in mind I'm just talking about visual performance penalties, as SQ wise they are quite close. I have to admit that Rapture3D is quite good and has great potential for both hardware and software OpenAL users.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Too bad we can't just replace XAudio2 + X3DAudio and FMOD Ex in all these new PC releases with OpenAL now...that would really go a long way toward making Rapture3D an easier sell.
   
  What would also be nice is if they include their own DirectSound3D wrapper (a utility like ALchemy) to extend compatibility further, since I have more DirectSound3D titles than native OpenAL ones.


----------



## Phos

I think you might be able to trick alchemy into doing that for you by having the X-Fi installed as normal but move its OAL.dll like normal. 

If blue ripple actually wants people to use rapture3D they should probably expand it to be a full audio middleware. Pretty sure as it is now it's just a software OAL implementation requiring just as much work from the developers as if they didn't license anything.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Too bad we can't just replace XAudio2 + X3DAudio and FMOD Ex in all these new PC releases with OpenAL now...that would really go a long way toward making Rapture3D an easier sell.
> 
> What would also be nice is if they include their own DirectSound3D wrapper (a utility like ALchemy) to extend compatibility further, since I have more DirectSound3D titles than native OpenAL ones.


 


  Agreed. I've been reading on some people that were trying to make an app for that, but I don't hold much faith in it, especially since the base audio is already flat, so it would be just stretching a 2D sound image.
   
  And I'm definitely on the same boat as you, DirectSound3D makes up for the bulk of my game library.
   
  Oh, apparently there is some restrictive info on Creative's EULA, so for the time being I can't release the app I was talking about. I'm still researching on workarounds for that, as I found about a few non-audio related tweaks that can improve performance on all systems, but I really want to find a loophole, as people with things like FiiO E7 or Benchmark DAC1 can use DirectSound3D.


----------



## Ilya--s

roller said:


> Frame rate wise, there has been reports of frame rate drops up to 15fps when using Rapture3D in ultra mode. Do keep in mind I'm just talking about visual performance penalties, as SQ wise they are quite close.



Yes, some people reported about low-perfomance with r3d, but i didn't experience this problem myself (ultra-mode, headphones, WinXP, Core2Quad). The difference was about 10-15%, overall framerate was 50-55fps.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Looks like anyone can just purchase X-Fi MB2 and get EAX 5 and those THX TruStudio Pro effects in software.
   
  I doubt it's worth $25 for desktop use (where you can spend just a little more and get a real X-Fi card), but it might be better than nothing for laptop users that can't utilize proper X-Fi hardware (not without some hideously kludgy setups involving a PE-4L and an ExpressCard slot).
   
  Anyone willing to experiment with this?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Looks like anyone can just purchase X-Fi MB2 and get EAX 5 and those THX TruStudio Pro effects in software.
> 
> I doubt it's worth $25 for desktop use (where you can spend just a little more and get a real X-Fi card), but it might be better than nothing for laptop users that can't utilize proper X-Fi hardware (not without some hideously kludgy setups involving a PE-4L and an ExpressCard slot).
> 
> Anyone willing to experiment with this?


 


  That's the thing, X-Fi MB and MB2 only work on a handful of onboard audio chips. They don't work on non-Creative internal soundcards nor external DACs.
   
  EDIT: Anyone can give it a try for free, the software runs as a trial or 30 days before requiring activation: http://www.creative.com/swredir/sws/go.aspx?action=4&pack=XMB2VDSTD


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





roller said:


> That's the thing, X-Fi MB and MB2 only work on a handful of onboard audio chips. They don't work on non-Creative internal soundcards nor external DACs.
> 
> EDIT: Anyone can give it a try for free, the software runs as a trial or 30 days before requiring activation: http://www.creative.com/swredir/sws/go.aspx?action=4&pack=XMB2VDSTD


 

 Does it actually use the hardware as anything but a dongle?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





maverickronin said:


> Does it actually use the hardware as anything but a dongle?


 

 Depends on the card.
   
  Most Live!, Audigy, and X-Fi cards have a powerful DSP for good reason, and you can bet that Creative's going to make good use of it.
   
  On the other hand, you have cards like the Audigy SE, the X-Fi XtremeAudio, the Recon3D line, and so forth that really do just run everything in software on the CPU, figuring that modern CPUs can take the load when late 1990s-era CPUs couldn't.
   
  I guess their reasoning for not making X-Fi MB2 work on their own sound cards is that they figure that if you had a sound card, you'd just use its features anyway instead of sticking to onboard audio codecs.


----------



## maverickronin

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Depends on the card.
> 
> Most Live!, Audigy, and X-Fi cards have a powerful DSP for good reason, and you can bet that Creative's going to make good use of it.
> 
> ...


 

 I was asking because I was thinking it might be hacked it to work with whatever sound device you pointed it at or something.  If none of its done in hardware then you'd probably just need to mess with device IDs or something.


----------



## Roller

The really odd part is that in the old days, Audigy cards had some sort of non locked feature driver that allowed for full availbility of the hardware features present on the EMU10K2 chip, but when software could use features above what the card natively had, the card just sent a request to the software and the software enables those features in software as an emulation system. Unfortunately I changed cards before I could test that with things like Battlefield 2142, for instance.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Makes sense for OpenAL (which BF2142 uses), but did they pull that off for DirectSound3D as well, which isn't known for having good software fallbacks?


----------



## Roller

Oh, I only tested that with DirectSound3D titles, I didn't test a single OpenAL title, so it's definitely surprising.
   
  I think around the time EAX 4 was made available, Creative began tightening up things, and forbidding developers to allow for higher EAX versions emulation on non-certified hardware.


----------



## maggio

Hi!
  Noob time, I'm on the market for new headphones, this thread (and MLE's thread) is gold!! Although totally overwhelming!
  thank you NamelessPFG and everyone for this extensive and elucidating read!
   
  I've been reading headphone reviews, but after reading this thread, I know I've been searching blindly. Or looking only at half the picture...
   
  Question:
  To get the the best positional audio (online FPS on headphones) from a laptop (clevo p170hm) with THX TruStudio Pro, SPDIF out (mini TOSLINK i think...) and external 7.1 output, what's the best option?
  Budget of ~200$ (headphones + dac/amp + external soundcard?)
  I know it's low end budget comparing to most gear discussed in this thread, but that's my wallet for now...
   
  I'm thinking headphones+Fiio e7?
  I can increase budget if I buy the amp/dac now and the headphones later, or something like that.
  I'm looking to upgrade my old Senn's HD202 (bassy and terrible for gaming).
   
  Is the THX TruStudio surround effect comparable to DH or CMSS3D? Can I take it and run with it?
  Or is the external soundcard a must? Which one?
   
  Is it unreasonable to expect anything not crappy from this combo: laptop + SPDIF + 7.1 onboard + THX + 200$?
   
  Thanks in advance... sorry for any confusion, I'm still trying figure how this will work.


----------



## NamelessPFG

The laptop part complicates things immensely. The only true X-Fi products are all PCI or PCI-Express-based, and I frankly doubt you're going to set up one of those in a PE-4L adapter connected to your laptop's ExpressCard slot due to the sheer kludginess of it all (and the cost of the PE-4L itself).
   
  I haven't experimented much with THX TruStudio Surround; on the X-Fi Titanium HD, it's only available in Entertainment Mode and thus not of much use to me (because the DirectSound3D/OpenAL acceleration is only present in Game Mode). There is a bit of a surround effect to it, but I can't say quite yet how good or bad it is.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> The laptop part complicates things immensely. The only true X-Fi products are all PCI or PCI-Express-based, and I frankly doubt you're going to set up one of those in a PE-4L adapter connected to your laptop's ExpressCard slot due to the sheer kludginess of it all (and the cost of the PE-4L itself).
> 
> I haven't experimented much with THX TruStudio Surround; on the X-Fi Titanium HD, it's only available in Entertainment Mode and thus not of much use to me (because the DirectSound3D/OpenAL acceleration is only present in Game Mode). There is a bit of a surround effect to it, but I can't say quite yet how good or bad it is.


 


  I have to admit that besides the whole convoluted process of getting a PE-4L system to work, it does indeed expand upgrade paths, but obviously a laptop will no longer be portable.
   
  I have a mobile system that has THX TruStudio Pro, and while it's interesting to see Creative software packages expanding what onboard audio chips can do, I basically ended up disabling it and falling back to my X-Fi USB dongle.
   
  About the previous post, adding a Creative X-Fi Surround 5.1 (non-Pro version) would help in both output quality and in positional cues, since even a Creative package applied on onboard audio chips doesn't make said chips any less crummy.


----------



## LancerX

This is my first post, so please bear with me.    
   
  My current headset is a Razer Carcharias, and I'm considering upgrading to Audio Technica's ATH-AD700 (32 ohm impedance w/ 53 mm drivers).
   
  My rig has Realtek ALC887 HD Audio on the motherboard.  Would I need to upgrade to a dedicated sound card to achieve good binaural surround sound when gaming, or would the onboard card achieve this goal?
   
  If the onboard card is good for surround, will it be sufficient to drive the AD700s?
   
  Thanks in advance!


----------



## NamelessPFG

Realtek codecs generally don't have anything like CMSS-3D Headphone or Dolby Headphone to my knowledge, barring some motherboards that come bundled with a Dolby Home Theater or X-Fi MB software package.
   
  I'd still advise picking up a used X-Fi (non-XtremeAudio, those are fakes) or Xonar DG (if you can't get a true X-Fi card for a reasonable price in your area) if you have an expansion slot free. Shouldn't cost any more than US$40 shipped.
   
  The AD700s are very easy to drive, so no worries about amplification, even with integrated motherboard audio. I'd be more concerned about a clean analog audio output (no buzzing or hissing whenever you move the mouse or have any drive activity going) and gaming audio features.


----------



## LancerX

Cool, thanks!  The Xonar DG card is only $17 (after rebate) on amazon right now, so unless there's some major reason to go with Creative, the Xonar will be the cheaper option by far. _ (Had some bad experiences with Creative drivers a few years back, so I'm not the biggest fan anyway...)_
   
  Does the AD700 with an AntLion ModMic sound like a good choice for my first foray into higher-fidelity gaming?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





lancerx said:


> Cool, thanks!  The Xonar DG card is only $17 (after rebate) on amazon right now, so unless there's some major reason to go with Creative, the Xonar will be the cheaper option by far. _ (Had some bad experiences with Creative drivers a few years back, so I'm not the biggest fan anyway...)_
> Does the AD700 with an AntLion ModMic sound like a good choice for my first foray into higher-fidelity gaming?


 
  The ATH-AD700 is very bass light.
  The Samson SR850 has more bass and is a lower price.
  and the Asus Xonar DG is a great value.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





lancerx said:


> Cool, thanks!  The Xonar DG card is only $17 (after rebate) on amazon right now, so unless there's some major reason to go with Creative, the Xonar will be the cheaper option by far. _ (Had some bad experiences with Creative drivers a few years back, so I'm not the biggest fan anyway...)_
> 
> Does the AD700 with an AntLion ModMic sound like a good choice for my first foray into higher-fidelity gaming?


 

 I'm not fond of rebates, but that price is hard to beat.
   
  The main incentive to go Creative would be if you play any games that use DirectSound3D or OpenAL in some fashion. Such games aren't common these days due to the prevalence of FMOD Ex (which enforces software audio mixing) in games released over the last few years, in which case the benefits of the X-Fi DSP largely go to waste.
   
  I don't have a ModMic yet, but the concept is sound and the reviews don't complain about audio quality or sensitivity. The AD700 is very comfortable and will synergize well with binaural audio filters, but they're not kidding about the lack of deep, low bass (and it still doesn't sound quite right even if you EQ up the bass). If you don't mind that flaw, you'll probably like them.


----------



## LancerX

namelesspfg said:


> The AD700 is very comfortable and will synergize well with binaural audio filters, but they're not kidding about the lack of deep, low bass (and it still doesn't sound quite right even if you EQ up the bass). If you don't mind that flaw, you'll probably like them.




Wierd. The Dynamic range specs say the bottom range is 5 hz, IIRC. You'd think the bass would be great.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





lancerx said:


> Wierd. The Dynamic range specs say the bottom range is 5 hz, IIRC. You'd think the bass would be great.


 

 Headphone frequency response specs by the manufacturers rarely mean anything, these are often just made up numbers for marketing.


----------



## avengernoonzz

I believe this is the right thread to ask the following..
   
  Will this combo do well for PC Gaming and awesome sound in general?
   
  Sennheiser HD598
this soundcard
modmic
   
  thanks 
   
  edit: or is this a better combo? I don't think it is though..


----------



## ReVio

I too wish to ask this question^


----------



## weez82

Both those setups will do fine. It really comes down to what headphone/headset you think sounds best. I used the hd595's for awhile but didnt like the sound signature so I sold them and tried out some DT 770 Pro 80's and love them. Read Mad Lust's thread. He covers tons of headphones/sets. The link is posted on the first page of this thread. If you know the sound signature you like that would help you get the right headphone/set for you.
   
  ModMic - I have one and love it. If you use the forum search you will find a review on it. But everyone that has used it seems to recommend it 
   
  Sound cards - look for one that has the features you need (read this thread and you will know what you need) and is in your price range. After you find one you want read some reviews and old threads.
  Quote: 





avengernoonzz said:


> I believe this is the right thread to ask the following..
> 
> Will this combo do well for PC Gaming and awesome sound in general?
> 
> ...


----------



## LancerX

Quote: 





avengernoonzz said:


> Will this combo do well for PC Gaming and awesome sound in general?
> 
> Sennheiser HD598
> this soundcard
> modmic


 
   
  I am running that same Xonar DG soundcard.  Seems to be very fully-featured - especially for the extremely affordable price.  I particularly liked the built-in headphone amp, and the Dolby Headphone support.
   
  I had first tried a set of Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro-80s with the ModMic for gaming.  The ModMic provides a very high quality sound, and the attachment system is very flexible (literally).  However, I found the lack of an inline volume control - and especially an inline mic mute switch - to be very inconvenient.  I also disliked the closed headset paired with a mic - it is hard to hear yourself talk, and I had to concentrate on not talking very loudly.  _(Note that the DT770s sounded *fantastic* - no complaints there!)_
   
  In the end, I settled on Sennheiser's PC 360 headset.  It is an open-backed set, and while the sound quality might not be quite as high as the HD598s, it is still quite good.  The volume control on the right earcup and the integrated mic (which mutes automatically when stowed vertically) are just incredibly convenient.  (A Senn rep told me that the PC 360 is based on the HD555 headphones.)


----------



## LancerX

Quote: 





lancerx said:


> I am running that same Xonar DG soundcard.  Seems to be very fully-featured - especially for the extremely affordable price.  I particularly liked the built-in headphone amp, and the Dolby Headphone support.
> 
> I had first tried a set of Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro-80s with the ModMic for gaming.  The ModMic provides a very high quality sound, and the attachment system is very flexible (literally).  However, I found the lack of an inline volume control - and especially an inline mic mute switch - to be very inconvenient.  (What do you do if you have to sneeze, etc.)  I also disliked the closed headset paired with a mic - it is hard to hear yourself talk, and I had to concentrate on not talking very loudly.  _(Note that the DT770s sounded *fantastic* - no complaints there!)_
> 
> ...


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





avengernoonzz said:


> I believe this is the right thread to ask the following..
> 
> Will this combo do well for PC Gaming and awesome sound in general?
> 
> ...


 
   
  The Xonar Xense combo has a better sound card, but if you're willing to pay up more than a Xonar DG's worth on the sound card, you're probably best off going for the X-Fi Titanium HD and your headphones of choice + ModMic. Then again, DirectSound3D and OpenAL games are higher-priority for me; I like the classics.
   
  If all you play are recent games with purely software-driven audio courtesy of FMOD Ex or other popular middlewares, then you're not losing anything with C-Media-based cards like what Asus offers.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





avengernoonzz said:


> I believe this is the right thread to ask the following..
> Will this combo do well for PC Gaming and awesome sound in general?
> Sennheiser HD598
> this soundcard
> ...


 
  Asus just came out with the Xonar DGX, the PCI-Express version of the DG.


----------



## LancerX

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Asus just came out with the Xonar DGX, the PCI-Express version of the DG.


 
   
  Is Asus phasing out the DG?  Maybe that's why mine was so cheap (like $13 USD on Amazon after rebate).


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





lancerx said:


> Is Asus phasing out the DG?  Maybe that's why mine was so cheap (like $13 USD on Amazon after rebate).


 
  I think they will keep making them for a little while.


----------



## Migi06

Quote: 





azncookiecutter said:


> Some anecdotal experiences with SPDIF: I actually have success outputting Dolby Headphone over SPDIF to an external DAC using the Asus Xonar D1, with the unified drivers, but was not able to with any of the X-Fi based cards I tried (Titanium and X-Fi Forte).


 
   
  My experimental settings... Xonar DG Optical/SPDIF --> X-Fi HD USB & Dolby headphone works great 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I´m using unified drivers and with this settings I don't have annoying DG headphone amp hissing/white/static/whatever noise 
   
The myth is busted:
_-Myth: Sound card DSP effects for gaming do not carry through S/PDIF.

 -Fact: They do go through S/PDIF. I've tested it myself with RightMark 3DSound's positional audio test (uses DirectSound3D, so be sure to point ALchemy or other wrappers to the installation directory). This makes the combination of a sound card as a DSP and an external DAC with S/PDIF input a plausible upgrade option, as the sound card's lesser analog circuitry is still bypassed.


 However, arbitrary driver decisions may prevent some DSP features from working over S/PDIF anyway, such as Dolby Headphone on Xonar cards. This does not apply to all cards; X-Fi cards allow CMSS-3D Headphone output over S/PDIF._


----------



## bcpk

So what's the solution for people that want to use external DAC/Amps from, erm, more reputable parties than Creative and ASUS? You still have to buy an internal Creative soundcard and then use that as the binaural DSP which then sends the (still digital) signal to the USB DAC/Amp?


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





bcpk said:


> So what's the solution for people that want to use external DAC/Amps from, erm, more reputable parties than Creative and ASUS?


 
   
  The DAC on a good sound card can actually perform well enough to be transparent, so there is not necessarily much point replacing it with an external one, unless there is some real audible problem (e.g. noise) that needs to be fixed.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





bcpk said:


> So what's the solution for people that want to use external DAC/Amps from, erm, more reputable parties than Creative and ASUS? You still have to buy an internal Creative soundcard and then use that as the binaural DSP which then sends the (still digital) signal to the USB DAC/Amp?


 
  Get an Xonar DX sound card and get any (analog input) external headphone amplifier of your pick.
  Used Xonar DXs sell for around $50.


----------



## bcpk

Thanks for the suggestions guys, but not really what I'm looking for.


----------



## SoFGR

Quote: 





bcpk said:


> Thanks for the suggestions guys, but not really what I'm looking for.


 
  how about this one ? 
   
http://www.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_U3/


----------



## lennyr

Quote: 





sofgr said:


> how about this one ?
> 
> http://www.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_U3/


 
  I have a U3.  I like it a lot.  It works great for games (and Skype), and does DH really well.  It would not be my choice for critical music listening, although it is an upgrade to my onboard sound (Alienware M17x R2). I used to have an X-Fi Go! Pro, which was terrible in just about every way.  No problems whatsoever with the Asus U3.


----------



## our martin




----------



## Fegefeuer

Does anyone know if there's a way to prioritize EAX_Wrappers unter Windows 7? I want to test the Titanium HD vs. the STX but I can't get Alchemy working as long as the STX is installed. I can add games and install the dlls but when I start them EAX is greyed out, like in FEAR, Guild Wars 1 etc. If start those with the STX EAX is available through GX.
   
  OpenAL only games like Geas of War work of course, just not originally for DS3D made games that need Alchemy.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> Does anyone know if there's a way to prioritize EAX_Wrappers unter Windows 7? I want to test the Titanium HD vs. the STX but I can't get Alchemy working as long as the STX is installed. I can add games and install the dlls but when I start them EAX is greyed out, like in FEAR, Guild Wars 1 etc. If start those with the STX EAX is available through GX.
> 
> OpenAL only games like Geas of War work of course, just not originally for DS3D made games that need Alchemy.


 
   
  From what I've heard about the way DS3DGX (and possibly Xear3D on other C-Media cards) works, it drops a dsound.dll right into one of the Windows system folders, so you don't have to manually set it for every game like ALchemy (which instead copies the dsound.dll wrapper file right into the game executable directory for each and every game). This may mean that it's prioritizing the one in the Windows system folder.
   
  I wish I could help out more, but I don't have any Xonar or other C-Media cards around to experiment with. Good luck with your testing.
   
  (Oh, and could you be sure to test out Battlefield 2 or 2142 on the Essence STX? They use OpenAL, but the best sound settings are tailored to the X-Fi DSP, and it appears to use EAX 5 as opposed to EFX.)
   
  Quote: 





migi06 said:


> My experimental settings... Xonar DG Optical/SPDIF --> X-Fi HD USB & Dolby headphone works great
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I can't believe I didn't see this in over a week...I've updated that part of the guide to point to your post.


----------



## JdmKicks94

Hi, I'm looking to purchase a soundcard for my newly built gaming pc, and I will be using the audio technica ath-ad700 for both gaming and music. My budget is around $100. Could anyone recommend me a soundcard for both gaming and music? Thanks in advance


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





jdmkicks94 said:


> Hi, I'm looking to purchase a soundcard for my newly built gaming pc, and I will be using the audio technica ath-ad700 for both gaming and music. My budget is around $100. Could anyone recommend me a soundcard for both gaming and music? Thanks in advance


 
  Asus Xonar DG or DGX. way under your budget.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





jdmkicks94 said:


> Hi, I'm looking to purchase a soundcard for my newly built gaming pc, and I will be using the audio technica ath-ad700 for both gaming and music. My budget is around $100. Could anyone recommend me a soundcard for both gaming and music? Thanks in advance


 
   
  Xonar DG or a cheap, used X-Fi card (NOT the XtremeAudio, though).
   
  What games do you play?


----------



## JdmKicks94

namelesspfg said:


> Xonar DG or a cheap, used X-Fi card (NOT the XtremeAudio, though).
> 
> What games do you play?




Skyrim, diablo 3, minecraft mostly, and some battlefield 3. Also what would you reccoment between the ad700's and the hd 558's?

Edit: and I can stretch my budget, I just want to know what the best choice is, as I'm pretty new to this lol.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





jdmkicks94 said:


> Skyrim, diablo 3, minecraft mostly, and some battlefield 3. Also what would you recomend between the ATH-AD700's and the HD-558's?
> Edit: and I can stretch my budget, I just want to know what the best choice is, as I'm pretty new to this lol.


 
  I own both the ATH-AD700 and the HD558s, I way prefer the HD558 (decent bass).


----------



## JdmKicks94

purpleangel said:


> I own both the ATH-AD700 and the HD558s, I way prefer the HD558 (decent bass).




Yeah I've heard that the ad700's have very poor bass, so I'll more than likely sell me hm5's and move up to the 558's and a modmic


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





jdmkicks94 said:


> Yeah I've heard that the ad700's have very poor bass, so I'll more than likely sell me hm5's and move up to the 558's and a modmic


 
  My Brainwavz HM5 arrived yesterday (Monday), used them to watch Immortals on Blu-ray, nice movie headphones.
  Got a used one off eBay for $99.


----------



## JdmKicks94

purpleangel said:


> My Brainwavz HM5 arrived yesterday (Monday), used them to watch Immortals on Blu-ray, nice movie headphones.
> Got a used one off eBay for $99.




I hope you enjoy them man! I'll probably sell mine for around that price.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





jdmkicks94 said:


> Skyrim, diablo 3, minecraft mostly, and some battlefield 3. Also what would you reccoment between the ad700's and the hd 558's?
> Edit: and I can stretch my budget, I just want to know what the best choice is, as I'm pretty new to this lol.


 
   
  I've never tried the HD 558, so I'm in no place to compare it with the AD700 (which I have tried). The least I can say is that much of what is said about the AD700s is true: they really bring out positional cues, but are lacking in the bass department.
   
  Maybe I should make it more prominent in my guide that the only headphone I can recommend without hesitation is any Stax Lambda series model (especially the Normal bias ones), but those tend to cost quite a lot not just for the headphones, but for the amplifiers they require.
   
  All of those games generally have software-rendered audio...except for Minecraft, which uses OpenAL, but it's not quite as imperative to have an X-Fi for that game like it would be for Unreal Tournament or Battlefield 2. The Xonar DG shouldn't let you down, but do note that I haven't actually used one.


----------



## ryli

Hello, I'm looking for some advice on my setup.
   
  Currently I have a DIY bantam dac and a Millet Max amp to my AKG Q701.
  I know that the dac isnt capable of dolby headphone or any other binaural effects. I have an x-fi xtrememusic (which im not sure has a good 3D or not).
   
  Currently, I'm using the "What U Hear" trick from the xtrememusic card to my dac and amp.
  Are there better options?
  Can I run rca from the card to my amp?
  Is there a better card or hardware that I can use for dolby headphone/creative 3D?
   
  thanks for helping a confused newbie to computer gaming audio.


----------



## NamelessPFG

The X-Fi XtremeMusic is a proper card with the hardware DSP, so you have all the relevant gaming DSP effect support, but analog sound output quality may be behind the times...not that I noticed anything wrong with the similar X-Fi XtremeGamer Fatal1ty Pro I put into a client's build recently (which is a very similar card hardware-wise, just with more onboard RAM). And besides, if you're using an external DAC, you don't have that problem...but I don't have a good enough USB device to test how well the SniperCzar "What U Hear" Windows 7 trick actually works.
   
  Normally, I'd recommend a DAC with S/PDIF input (and if you're working with a DIY design, adding such an input shouldn't be too difficult), but getting S/PDIF out of an XtremeMusic requires either a proprietary Flexijack S/PDIF adapter that takes up your input jack and isn't very common, or the 5.25" front panel bay that came with the X-Fi Platinum and better cards from that time. Whether it's more practical to buy those discontinued devices or a newer card with built-in S/PDIF output like the X-Fi Titanium line is another matter.
   
  You can run RCA from any device with a 3.5mm jack; you just need an adapter. There's plenty on Monoprice, both simple plug adapters and adapter cables with both plug types on each end.


----------



## ultron

Thanks for this guide, helped me a lot. I was completely oblivious as to how good surround emulation was on headphones until recently. I tried some Doom 3 with X-fi MB2 and it's unreal.
   
  If anyone's interested in the Stereo Mix lag, I crudely measured it at about 90ms, recording a beep from 2 sets of headphones simultaneously with a mic and measured in Audacity.  My setup is X-fi MB2 with ALC888 and a uDac1.

 Does anyone know if you can pass the DSP effects over SPDIF with the X-Fi MB2 software? Either way I'm looking for a DAC/AMP with TOSLINK input to avoid the lag, <5 ohm input impedance for my HD598s, and analog volume control.  Does anyone have any suggestions?
   
  So far I've found the iBasso D12, Leckerton UHA-6S, Audio-GD NFB12.1, and Audiotrak DR.DAC2. Leaning towards the latter because I don't need portability.  Another option is the X-fi Titanium HD with a headphone amp, but I'm not sure how this compares to a $250+ desktop combo.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I don't see why you couldn't pass X-Fi MB2 processing over S/PDIF, though I haven't tried it myself (little experience with X-Fi MB on other people's systems, no experience with X-Fi MB2). If it relies on the Creative control panel, you could set it to "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output", which is exactly what it sounds like. (Whether you'd have the latency or not, I have no idea.)
   
  There isn't a noticeable hit to sound quality using the SniperCzar trick for USB DACs, is there? That's the one thing I'm wondering about, but without a proper USB 2.0 audio device or the desire to spend so much money on one...
   
  Meanwhile, the notion of combined DAC/amps does unnerve me a little, but only because I think it's a better idea to have a separate DAC and headphone amp. Match the amp to the headphones than the other way around, if you will. As to what gear I'd suggest instead, I frankly have no idea since that stuff's on the expensive side of things and I can't afford to purchase it all just for reviewing's sake. I like my Titanium HD, but I'm in no place to say whether it's that much better or worse than getting an external DAC. (On the other hand, I'm far more trusting of the actual X-Fi DSP for gaming effects than the CPU-based code in the X-Fi MB software suites.)


----------



## ultron

I couldn't tell a difference between stereo mix and just my uDac alone in games, but I don't have golden ears either.  The difference between my motherboard's headphone jack and the uDac however, is very apparent.  The latency is a dealbreaker for me, though. 90ms is very noticeable to me.

 If I go the DAC/AMP route, I'll probably get a cheap X-fi with proper hardware DSP and maybe a Xonar DG down the line to compare.
 Audio quality is #1 priority for me, gaming second.. I originally stumbled across this and some other threads looking for an upgrade to my uDac for music only. Might as well pay a little extra for TOSLINK to have optimal gaming sound too.
   
  Edit: I'm going to borrow a Mixamp to test the SPDIF pass-through. Btw.. I tried the Mixamp before. It's Dolby Headphone effect was awful compared to the Powerdvd codec. The surround was there but the soundstage was much smaller.  Makes me wonder how much better true hardware X-fi sounds compared to X-fi MB2.
   
  Edit: Got the Mixamp. I can send all the DSP effects through SPDIF, but  CMSS3D headphone doesn't work because I can't set SPDIF to 5.1/7.1 in windows(even though it's really only 2.0 being sent). It's behaving exactly how the headphone jack did before I set it to surround sound.  How were people able to get this to work on Xonar/X-fi cards?


----------



## Fegefeuer

Modern Warfare 3 has msseax.flt in the miles folder next to mssds3d, mssdsp, milesEq.
   
  Why does the miles package list EAX filters or why does MW3 bring them along? Any reason for this or is the filter just part of the miles SDK/package?
   
*EDIT*: Does the X-Fi THD send CMSS-3D HP over Cinch?


----------



## NamelessPFG

CoD:MW3 uses the Miles Sound System? That's a surprise, since I could've sworn the CoD4 demo used FMOD Ex...then again, just because it's using MSS these days doesn't mean that it'll actually use DirectSound3D for mixing. (Source engine games require a console command before it's enabled, for instance.)
   
  I'm guessing it's just a holdover from older MSS versions, a lot of which even continued to support Aureal A3D long after they were dead and buried. I still very frankly doubt that it uses EAX extensions at all, but it would be fascinating to know if it's possible to enable DirectSound3D mixing for proper binaural sound. (Of course, you'd need to use ALchemy or a similar wrapper along with it.)
   
  ...And what do you mean by sending audio "over Cinch"? That's no audio interface I've ever heard of.


----------



## ultron

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> ...And what do you mean by sending audio "over Cinch"? That's no audio interface I've ever heard of.


 
  I think he means RCA.


 Any idea if windows allows you to set SPDIF to 5.1 with a Dolby Digital Live or DTS connect audio device? That's the only way I'm seeing CMSS3DH or Dolby headphone working over SPDIF. My motherboard has neither.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Yeah, I mean RCA.
   
  Will try Alchemy on MW3 later but doubt it's going to change anything.


----------



## NamelessPFG

ultron said:


> I think he means RCA.
> 
> 
> Any idea if windows allows you to set SPDIF to 5.1 with a Dolby Digital Live or DTS connect audio device? That's the only way I'm seeing CMSS3DH or Dolby headphone working over SPDIF. My motherboard has neither.


 
   
  I have to admit, this is the first time I've ever heard RCA jacks referred to by any other name.
   
  Yes, the X-Fi Titanium HD outputs CMSS-3D Headphone-processed audio over the RCA jacks. It wouldn't be as useful to me to have those jacks otherwise (I use them as line-out to an external receiver that drives my Stax setup, and the receiver is old enough that it lacks S/PDIF input, only RCA), even if 3.5mm-to-RCA adapter cables exist.
   
  The way S/PDIF output on X-Fi cards work is kind of weird. It's largely independent of the Windows speaker setting; instead, what you do is check "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" in the control panel, which does exactly what it says on the tin. Works perfectly with CMSS-3D Headphone. If that isn't checked, however, you aren't going to hear anything out of S/PDIF. (Also, do NOT set "SPDIF Out" as the primary audio output device, because it won't work for anything other than DVD or Blu-ray movies. It needs to be on the "Speakers" device at all times.)
   
  However, once you enable Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect, the drivers automatically switch to 5.1 speaker mode instead of Headphones, and the same thing is done to the Windows speaker setting (albeit the channels aside from front left/right are not treated as full-range by default). Turning it back off, though, leaves the Windows speaker setting at 5.1 while the X-Fi setting reverts to whatever it was set to beforehand (Headphones in my case).


----------



## ridill

I see. Does "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" add any latency like the stereo mix in windows?

 Edit: That's odd.. sure firefox remembers the info for my old lurker account now.  ridill=ultron.


----------



## Lambduh

So I recently moved from astro gear with an auzentech prelude to a xonar stx and pc360. The sound is less thrilling I would say, as the explosions have less punch. It still is an upgrade though, because the bass I feel is more accurately produced with this combo and I can hear footsteps in cs:go from farther away than anyone else seems to be able to.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





lambduh said:


> So I recently moved from Astro gear with an Auzentech prelude to a Xonar STX and pc360. The sound is less thrilling I would say, as the explosions have less punch. It still is an upgrade though, because the bass I feel is more accurately produced with this combo and I can hear footsteps in cs:go from farther away than anyone else seems to be able to.
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


 
  What setting are you using in the Xonar Control Panel?
  Try the Brainbit third party "Unified Xonar Drivers", at the Brainbit website.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ridill said:


> I see. Does "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" add any latency like the stereo mix in windows?


 
   
  I don't notice any latency...but that's not the same as knowing there's absolutely no latency. I'm not sure how to properly test for it, other than "make sure gunshots sound off exactly when I pull the trigger", and that's hardly a flawless testing method.


----------



## ultron

You can try this http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Latency_Test

 I just tried it out with a headset mic listening to my headphones.
 Realtek headphone out = 200ms
 Realtek headpohne out with X-fi MB2 CMSS3DH on = 250ms
 uDac via Stereo Mix = 315ms
 uDac via Stereo Mix with  X-fi MB2 CMSS3DH on = 365ms
 uDac alone = 175ms

 So stereo mix is adding 90ms for me, and CMSS3DH adds 50ms... No wonder it felt so laggy.

 Edit: Realized different sources probably had different latencies so redid it.


----------



## VN1X

Hey all,
  
 Short time lurker, first time poster!
  
 So after doing some reading on the subject (mostly on these forums) I figured, why not join up and get a more specific answer for myself. With that being said, this has probably been asked a bunch of times before so bare with me sirs!
  
 As I said I've been reading up on quite a few headphones on Head-Fi. I've already learned more than I wanted to lol and it seems my wallet isn't going to like me very much but alas, I want excellent sound quality. Some advice already given to other members include: A: I need a proper sound card with built-in amp and B: I need a card that powers a pair of 250ohm headphones (such as the  Beyerdynamic 990 pro or the Sennheiser HD595).
  
 I'm not exactly an audiophile but definitely recognize great sound when I hear it. I'm mainly in it for gaming purposes but I suppose with the following setup I can get best of both worlds?
  
 I'd like to get the following:
 - ASUS Xonar Essence STX 
 - Beyerdynamic 990 pro  
 OR
  
 - ASUS Xonar Essence STX 
 - Sennheiser HD 595
  
 It seems these two headphones are all the rave when it comes to gaming and have been recommended by a number of members so far. 
  
 Will these provide their respective 'bang for buck' and will I hear Battlefield 3 like never before? 
  
 I'm currently rocking the Sennheiser HD515 (without a dedicated sound card). I thought about getting the ASUS Xonar DGX along with a '5.1 gaming headset (mic included) but after doing some 'research' I might as well go all out and get some proper gear. 
  
 PS I listen to all kinds of music but predominantly Metal. Just thought I'd mention that as well.
  
 *EDIT*: On other forums I've read that this sound card isn't what one would get when you're in need of full-on surround sound? Is this true?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





vn1x said:


> Hey all,
> Short time lurker, first time poster!
> So after doing some reading on the subject (mostly on these forums) I figured, why not join up and get a more specific answer for myself. With that being said, this has probably been asked a bunch of times before so bare with me sirs!
> As I said I've been reading up on quite a few headphones on Head-Fi. I've already learned more than I wanted to lol and it seems my wallet isn't going to like me very much but alas, I want excellent sound quality. Some advice already given to other members include: A: I need a proper sound card with built-in amp and B: I need a card that powers a pair of 250ohm headphones (such as the  Beyerdynamic 990 pro or the Sennheiser HD595).
> ...


 
  The Titanium HD is the leading gaming card, the Essence STX is more of a movie and headphone amplifier card, that does gaming.
  Music and audio quality wise there close to equal.
  I'm a Essence STX user myself.
  I would say to get the DT990 Pro 250-ohm (full bass, full treble, nice sound stage, clear vocals), gamers seem to like it and it's great for movies.


----------



## Lambduh

purpleangel said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Phos

So the recent indie game "Tiny and Big: Grandpa's Leftovers" uses OpenAL.  It has OpenAL32.dll in its folder, and for some reason it also has "wrap_oal.dll".  Not sure why a game that just came out would have that.  Does he think people are going to be running this on XP?  It basically does the opposite of ALchemy, If I wanted to I could use ALchemy to wrap the Directsound wrapper and overall make a mess of things.  I wonder if I could point these wrappers at each other and send them in a loop?  
  Quote: 





ridill said:


> I see. Does "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" add any latency like the stereo mix in windows?
> 
> Edit: That's odd.. sure firefox remembers the info for my old lurker account now.  ridill=ultron.


 
  There's no latency, I compared it to analog out by connecting speakers to the analog out and headphones to a DAC via toslink and it matched up perfectly.  Didn't even realize there were two sources for a moment.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





phos said:


> So the recent indie game "Tiny and Big: Grandpa's Leftovers" uses OpenAL.  It has OpenAL32.dll in its folder, and for some reason it also has "wrap_oal.dll".  Not sure why a game that just came out would have that.  Does he think people are going to be running this on XP?  It basically does the opposite of ALchemy, If I wanted to I could use ALchemy to wrap the Directsound wrapper and overall make a mess of things.  I wonder if I could point these wrappers at each other and send them in a loop?


 
   
  So it's not just the Java-based indie games like Minecraft and 3079 using OpenAL...though A New Zero isn't Java-based, either. Makes me wonder why the indies don't have any issues with onerous Creative licensing just to use OpenAL (meaning the barrier to entry is low), but all those "AAA" blockbuster game development studios insist on using XAudio2 + X3DAudio or FMOD Ex, with inferior results. I just don't get it.
   
  Have you tried renaming/removing one or both of those files (after backing them up, of course) to find out what happens? The difference between properly-working DirectSound3D or OpenAL and anything else is pretty obvious to me with CMSS-3D Headphone on.


----------



## Phos

It'll probably just fall back to the .dll's in my windows folder.  
   
  I don't think there are any licensing fees, just that most developers don't work with OpenGL like API's, most nowadays are making games with middleware and the middleware uses audio middleware that isn't as good.  It doesn't help that it's hard to sell a game based on sound.


----------



## 0sync0

I'm thinking of getting a Xonar DG to try out Dolby Headphone. But first I'm curious to see which of my games actually output surround sound. Is there some way to tell without researching each game?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





0sync0 said:


> I'm thinking of getting a Xonar DG to try out Dolby Headphone. But first I'm curious to see which of my games actually output surround sound. Is there some way to tell without researching each game?


 
   
  PC games have been doing surround sound since the late 1990s, largely thanks to the 3D sound revolution Aureal started back then with A3D. You'd be harder-pressed to find a 3D PC game these days that _doesn't_ support surround sound in some fashion because of that.
   
  The only catch is that for the really old DirectSound3D-based stuff, you need to enable DS3DGX first to get any semblance of surround sound (and EAX support, but that's a separate issue).
   
  Generally speaking, though, I wouldn't expect anything without a first/third-person view to really bother with surround sound due to how front/rear positional audio cues don't really work out so well with overhead views.


----------



## 0sync0

I was originally planning on getting a USB surround headset. Then I did some research here and learned about using a separate surround processor and headphones. I liked the idea of having flexibility in which cans to use.
   
  Then I read this in another thread here:
   
  Quote: 





> As far as advice for/against Dolby Headphone through a USB headset or a soundcard with Dolby (or other positional simulator), HRTFs are extremely complex to do correctly, and generally work best when exactly matched to the response curve of the headset and even the axis of the driver relative to the ear cup. This means that *most* people get positional audio cues better from a USB headset because the audio engineers can design the entire system to produce the closest representation of the HRTF.


 
   
  That makes sense to me and now I'm thinking of a USB headset again.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I'm a bit skeptical of that.
   
  Yes, HRTFs are difficult to do correctly when every human head has a unique HRTF, but I have my doubts that a cheap headset with cheap drivers (like most gaming headsets) and a specially-tailored HRTF is going to win out over an audiophile headphone with quality drivers and a generic HRTF.
   
  Also, several headsets such as the Logitech G35 and G930 just use Dolby Headphone, not even a proprietary binaural HRTF tech. This does raise the question of whether it's better to design the headphone around the HRTF, or the other way around...but if that were the case, people wouldn't be dumping their Tritton AX720s and Astro A40s (which you think would be designed around Dolby Headphone), keeping the decoder boxes/Mixamps that do the DH processing, and using better headphones. In other words, Mad Lust Envy's thread simply wouldn't exist.
   
  Ideally, the HRTF itself needs to be fully adjustable across different sets of headphones and human heads. Currently, the only one that I know of that is flawless in this regard is Smyth's SVS (as featured in their Realiser), and that's because it takes recordings from earbud microphones in the user's ears while playing test tones through all the speakers in a typical 7.1 theater system, then calibrating the response from the user's headphones of choice compared to what the earbuds in their ears actually hear.


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I'm a bit skeptical of that.
> 
> Yes, HRTFs are difficult to do correctly when every human head has a unique HRTF, but I have my doubts that a cheap headset with cheap drivers (like most gaming headsets) and a specially-tailored HRTF is going to win out over an audiophile headphone with quality drivers and a generic HRTF.
> 
> ...


 
  The idea way would be to just make an HRTF profile using this technology and 3 pictures of the individual and then calibrating the the specific headphone the same way the realiser does it.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





phos said:


> The idea way would be to just make an HRTF profile using this technology and 3 pictures of the individual and then calibrating the the specific headphone the same way the realiser does it.


 
   
  Well, this is interesting. Too bad there are no current products that use that approach to creating personalized HRTFs.
   
  Since this is modeling just the HRTF, not a theater sound system, this could theoretically be used to present a true 3D binaural sound image, not just 7.1, when fed with the proper positional data.
   
  Come to think of it, does anyone actually sell earbud microphones for the headphone calibration part? I haven't seen any that weren't packaged with the Realiser.


----------



## 0sync0

I don't really want to install a sound card just for Dolby Headphone. So I guess I was looking for an excuse to get a USB headset. 
   
  I'm actually leery of getting any headphones. I've never tried any that were comfortable for more than a few minutes.
   
  I also haven't been impressed with HRTF demos I've listened to. So I'm probably not a good candidate for that.


----------



## NamelessPFG

There is the possibility that your own HRTF falls too far outside the average for the binaural positioning cues to work. That's the drawback of non-personalized HRTFs, sadly...
   
  As for finding some comfortable headphones, you just have to find the right ones. One of the reasons I like my Stax SR-Lambda so much is that I can wear it for hours on end without complaint (very low clamping force helps), but I doubt you're going to be spending that much on headphones.
   
  If you really don't want to install an internal sound card, you have two options:
   
  -If it's a typical Realtek motherboard, try fiddling around with those modified Realtek driver packages featuring the X-Fi MB(2) software suite and see how well CMSS-3D Headphone/THX TruStudio Pro Surround works out. I'm not sure if there are any equivalents bearing the Dolby Home Theater software package (including Dolby Headphone).
   
  -Get some cheap USB audio interface with a few gaming features like an X-Fi Go! or Xonar U3, then connect your headphones and mic to that. It's really not that different from a USB headset, except the USB sound device can be used with whatever headphones and mic you want. More flexible that way.


----------



## Aelius

I have a Xonar DX sound card where I use optical-out to my NFB 12.1 DAC/amp. How do I get Dolby Headphones working for gaming?


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Well, this is interesting. Too bad there are no current products that use that approach to creating personalized HRTFs.
> 
> Since this is modeling just the HRTF, not a theater sound system, this could theoretically be used to present a true 3D binaural sound image, not just 7.1, when fed with the proper positional data.
> 
> Come to think of it, does anyone actually sell earbud microphones for the headphone calibration part? I haven't seen any that weren't packaged with the Realiser.


 
Yes, actually.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





aelius said:


> I have a Xonar DX sound card where I use optical-out to my NFB 12.1 DAC/amp. How do I get Dolby Headphones working for gaming?


 
  Set Audio Channel to Max (6 or 8?).
  I usually leave sample rate to 96Khz.
  Analog out to "Headphone" (but it might not matter, but set to "Headphone" anyway)
  Set S/PDIF to "Dolby Digital Live".
  Check the box for Dolby headphone.
   
  Hopefully these settings will give you Dolby Virtual headphone thru the digital out.
   
  I'm assuming your connecting the Toslink optical cable to the Xonar DX's optical output and not the motherboard's


----------



## Aelius

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Set Audio Channel to Max (6 or 8?).
> I usually leave sample rate to 96Khz.
> Analog out to "Headphone" (but it might not matter, but set to "Headphone" anyway)
> Set S/PDIF to "Dolby Digital Live".
> ...


 

 Hi! Thanks for the help  There's a problem though. The "Analog Out" dropdown box and the "Sample Rate" boxes are greyed out. I can't select them. Also, there is no box for "Dolby headphone" when in "Dolby Digital Live" mode, only when in "PCM mode". Also, even when I switch to PCM mode and turn on Dolby Headphones, there is no audible change whatsoever. And I know what it _should_ sound like, because I used to use analog instead of digital before I got my NFB-12.1, but DH is definitely not doing anything when I select it.
   
  Maybe something in the my control panel's sound settings is wrong? Here is what it currently looks like, along with my Xonar DX control panel settings:


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Set Audio Channel to Max (6 or 8?).
> I usually leave sample rate to 96Khz.
> Analog out to "Headphone" (but it might not matter, but set to "Headphone" anyway)
> Set S/PDIF to "Dolby Digital Live".
> ...


 
  I don't think you need Dolby Digital Live because you're only outputting two channels.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





phos said:


> I don't think you need Dolby Digital Live because you're only outputting two channels.


 
  You right, it's not Dolby Digital Live, the S/PDIF needs to be set for "PCM" for 2-channel for headphone surround sound thru the S/PDIF.


----------



## Aelius

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> You right, it's not Dolby Digital Live, the S/PDIF needs to be set for "PCM" for 2-channel for headphone surround sound thru the S/PDIF.


 
  I'm still confused. Did you read my post above?


----------



## Brooko

Just to clarify Aelius' position - I've been PMing him up to now on setting up his NFB-12 & he's all go for music over SPDIF/optical - but we're not sure on the surround / dolby h/p.
   
  I have an X-Fi Titanium, and have similar set-up - using the NFB-12, and outputting surround/dsps over the optical connection - and getting quite good cues for gaming with headphones.  A bit stuck with setting same up with his Xonar - so thought you guys could help.  FTR - I use the Win7 "What You Hear" option to make it work.  He doesn't seem to get that option - so not sure if it only comes with the Creative cards?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





phos said:


> I don't think you need Dolby Digital Live because you're only outputting two channels.


 
  Correct it was wrong of me to say Dolby Digital live, I should have said
  enable S/PDIF and set to  PCM to output headphone surround sound thru the S/PDIF Toslink digital optical output.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





aelius said:


> I'm still confused. Did you read my post above?


 
  Yes I did.
  The S/PDIF needs to be enabled to send anything thru the Toslink optical output.
  For preprocessed headphone surround sound (2-channel) to be sent out the toslink, the S/PDIF needs to be set to PCM.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





aelius said:


> Hi! Thanks for the help  There's a problem though. The "Analog Out" dropdown box and the "Sample Rate" boxes are greyed out. I can't select them. Also, there is no box for "Dolby headphone" when in "Dolby Digital Live" mode, only when in "PCM mode". Also, even when I switch to PCM mode and turn on Dolby Headphones, there is no audible change whatsoever. And I know what it _should_ sound like, because I used to use analog instead of digital before I got my NFB-12.1, but DH is definitely not doing anything when I select it.
> 
> Maybe something in the my control panel's sound settings is wrong? Here is what it currently looks like, along with my Xonar DX control panel settings:


 
  As I use the Essence STX, maybe the control panel works differently.
  Before enabling S/PDIF, set audio channel to max.
  Sample rate to whatever, I just prefer 96Khz
  Set analog out to headphone.
  Then enable S/PDIF and set to PCM.
  I would assume the "Dolby Headphone" would be visable?


----------



## Aelius

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> As I use the Essence STX, maybe the control panel works differently.
> Before enabling S/PDIF, set audio channel to max.
> Sample rate to whatever, I just prefer 96Khz
> Set analog out to headphone.
> ...


 
  Yes, but like I said: "Also, even when I switch to PCM mode and turn on Dolby Headphones, there is no audible change whatsoever. And I know what it _should_ sound like, because I used to use analog instead of digital before I got my NFB-12.1, but DH is definitely not doing anything when I select it."


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





aelius said:


> Yes, but like I said: "Also, even when I switch to PCM mode and turn on Dolby Headphones, there is no audible change whatsoever. And I know what it _should_ sound like, because I used to use analog instead of digital before I got my NFB-12.1, but DH is definitely not doing anything when I select it."


 
  In your windows playback setting, you have Xonar S/PDIF set as default output device, so I'm assuming windows is bypassing the Xonar audio processing and send the audio straight thru the Xonar's S/PDIF output.
  In playback set default to "Speakers Xonar DX Audio Device".
  Windows needs to know you want the audio sent to the Xonar sound card first, then let the Xonar sound card process the audio and let the Xonar DX send the audio out thru the Xonar's S/PDIF


----------



## Aelius

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> In your windows playback setting, you have Xonar S/PDIF set as default output device, so I'm assuming windows is bypassing the Xonar audio processing and send the audio straight thru the Xonar's S/PDIF output.
> In playback set default to "Speakers Xonar DX Audio Device".
> Windows needs to know you want the audio sent to the Xonar sound card first, then let the Xonar sound card process the audio and let the Xonar DX send the audio out thru the Xonar's S/PDIF


 
   
  Do I then switch the default device back to the Xonar S/PDIF once I'm done gaming, or leave the default device as "speakers" and simply turn Dolby Headphones on or off, depending on whether I'm gaming or not?
   
  Also, do I always leave it on PCM and never on "Dolby Digital Live"?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





aelius said:


> Do I then switch the default device back to the Xonar S/PDIF once I'm done gaming, or leave the default device as "speakers" and simply turn Dolby Headphones on or off, depending on whether I'm gaming or not?


 
  In Windows Playback, the default device should be left on "Speakers Xonar DX Audio Device". no reason for you to switch to anything else (ever).
   
  The only reason to set Windows playback to "S/PDIF Pass Thru Device" is if you want to bypass all Xonar audio processing and functions.
  It turns the Xonar DX sound card into nothing but an Toslink optical output port.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





aelius said:


> Do I then switch the default device back to the Xonar S/PDIF once I'm done gaming, or leave the default device as "speakers" and simply turn Dolby Headphones on or off, depending on whether I'm gaming or not?
> 
> Also, do I always leave it on PCM and never on "Dolby Digital Live"?


 
  Dolby Digital Live is when Dolby encodes the audio stream, I guess it's compressed audio, up to six channels (audio 5.1).
  and need another (Dolby?) device at the other end of the cable to decode/uncompress the audio.
  S/PDIF can send this compressed (digital) audio with both optical and coaxial
   
  PCM is just 2-channel audio, but it's can be sent with an optical (light wave) signal and coaxial (digital electric), Red/White RCA is 2-channel but in an analog (electricity) signal.
   
  As headphone is a 2-channel signal, you use the PCM setting to send it out.
  With PCM you do not need any special decoder at the other end, it usually just something that turn the lightwave into analog (electricity).
  Hope this help some what.


----------



## Brooko

Thanks for helping him out guys.  Was definitely a different set-up to the way I use my X-Fi.


----------



## bowei006

I still am compltely lost on what I should be doing to get the best out of my games. 
   
  I currently follow this setup:
   
  Computer optical S/PDIF out-->Optical Toslink cable-->NFB 12.1 DAC fixed line out-->RCA cable-->O2 --->Q701
   
  Here's my onboard sound codec
http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/audio/codecs/vt1708s/
   
  has these














   
   
  What can I do to get that beautiful sound in the video on Mad Lust Envy's thread?.....holy crap when they went from 1:08 to the rest... I knew I was missing out.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> I still am compltely lost on what I should be doing to get the best out of my games.
> 
> I currently follow this setup:
> 
> ...


 
  What make and model motherboard are you using?
  Does it have coaxial digital output?
  Try updating to the latest version of your audio software.
  Double check all audio setting, try 24/96, if not all ready.
   
  Try an Asus Xonar DX sound card (used $55).
   
  A USB/optical converter might improve sound, but limits surround sound.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> What make and model motherboard are you using?
> Does it have coaxial digital output?
> Try updating to the latest version of your audio software.
> Double check all audio setting, try 24/96, if not all ready.
> ...


 
  ASUS M4A78T-E
  Sadly no. It only has Optical out.
   
  I am already at the latest. It goes up to 192KHz...but I use my DAC through S/PDIF out. I have no idea the uses of PC gaming with equipment so i'm here to see what I can salvage with my measley set.
   
  Anyway, I'll start downloading all the utilities that my Audio codec*dolby) came with and see if I can send it along with the digital out stream...but as it's......"that" kind of dolby. I'm not sure if it will be good. Anyway, I'll try it tomorrow.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> ASUS M4A78T-E
> Sadly no. It only has Optical out.
> 
> I am already at the latest. It goes up to 192KHz...but I use my DAC through S/PDIF out. I have no idea the uses of PC gaming with equipment so i'm here to see what I can salvage with my measley set.
> ...


 
  As the Dolby is software based, it's easier for Dolby to add fixes, updates and improvement.
  Dolby latest audio processor the Dolby Pro logic IIz came out in 2009, so designed in 2008.
  So your software Dolby could be up to 4 years "newer".
  Asus has not update the software for your board in three years.
   
  You always welcome to try an Asus Xonar DX (used $55) sound card, see if it makes any difference.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> As the Dolby is software based, it's easier for Dolby to add fixes, updates and improvement.
> Dolby latest audio processor the Dolby Pro logic IIz came out in 2009, so designed in 2008.
> So your software Dolby could be up to 4 years "newer".
> Asus has not update the software for your board in three years.
> ...


 
  Hmm I just might but I will see if any of these free solutions will work better. I don't have much money to spend on audio...... I came into most of my gear through luck and perserverance 
   
  I'll make this a weekend project to see if the DOLBy that my motherboard supports or allows is viable and if I can pass it to my Audio GD unit


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Hmm I just might but I will see if any of these free solutions will work better. I don't have much money to spend on audio...... I came into most of my gear through luck and perserverance
> 
> I'll make this a weekend project to see if the Dolby that my motherboard supports or allows is viable and if I can pass it to my Audio GD unit


 
  When your output digital thru the optical to the NFB 12, make sure S/PDIF output is set to PCM, not DDL (Dolby Digital live).
  PCM is a simple two channel signal and I'm guessing the NFB 12 only knows how to deal with a simple 2-channel signal.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> When your output digital thru the optical to the NFB 12, make sure S/PDIF output is set to PCM, not DDL (Dolby Digital live).
> PCM is a simple two channel signal and I'm guessing the NFB 12 only knows how to deal with a simple 2-channel signal.


 
  Will do and yeah exactly. Audio devices like such are just stereo.


----------



## NamelessPFG

This isn't directly related to PC gaming audio, but bear with me-you'll see the parallels.
   
Dolby Atmos
   
  Unlike their earlier formats, Atmos is not quite a specific speaker configuration, though Atmos-enabled theaters have a LOT of speakers to utilize it (including overhead speakers for height, something long overdue in such systems). Instead, movies that use Atmos have the sounds positioned in 3D space, and the Atmos system will play back those sounds through the channels closest to those sound positions, downmixing to 7.1 or 5.1 if the full Atmos speaker array is not present.
   
  ...Wait a minute, this is basically the DirectSound3D and OpenAL way of doing things, and DS3D is over a decade old! What took them so long? It's amazing how ahead of the curve PC gaming tends to be.
   
  I do hope that they also think about improving Dolby Headphone with the Atmos production system. Just imagine its HRTF applied to a true 3D positional audio source, and not downmixed 5.1/7.1...it may even surpass CMSS-3D Headphone (when fed with DS3D/OAL 3DPA data).


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> When your output digital thru the optical to the NFB 12, make sure S/PDIF output is set to PCM, not DDL (Dolby Digital live).
> PCM is a simple two channel signal and I'm guessing the NFB 12 only knows how to deal with a simple 2-channel signal.


 
  If it's anything like the NFB-5, it'll just make a buzzing if you send it a DD signal.  
   
  Edit: Dolby Atmos sounds like an ambisonic format, or that it includes one.  If it isn't, they should throw it out and just make an ambisonic format.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I'll admit, I don't exactly know what "ambisonic" means, other than that Blue Ripple Sound makes heavy use of higher-order ambisonics for Rapture3D.
   
  But if it's independent of fixed speaker channel locations, I'm all for it.


----------



## 0sync0

Quote: 





> What can I do to get that beautiful sound in the video on Mad Lust Envy's thread?.....holy crap when they went from 1:08 to the rest... I knew I was missing out.


 
  I'm not familiar with some parts of your setup. Is there anything in the chain that produces headphone surround?


----------



## bowei006

Just tried some things, the only way my computer will output or allow DTS to be enabled is if the default device is the regular 3.5mm main jack out(speakers) or through HDMI into a compatible receiver....meaning my only option is to use my 3.5mm to RCA cable and connect it to the O2 and give it a demo that way....................


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





bowei006 said:


> Just tried some things, the only way my computer will output or allow DTS to be enabled is if the default device is the regular 3.5mm main jack out(speakers) or through HDMI into a compatible receiver....meaning my only option is to use my 3.5mm to RCA cable and connect it to the O2 and give it a demo that way....................


 
  Your 5.1 optical output is DDL (Dolby Digital live), not DTS Digital Live.
  I'm "guessing" that's the problem.


----------



## bowei006

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Your 5.1 optical output is DDL (Dolby Digital live), not DTS Digital Live.
> I'm "guessing" that's the problem.


 
  Frankly my audio codec barely gives me any option on choosing to select what etc etc. But it doesn't matter. I just tried it the way I said above ......the positioning is nice but overal what my codec is able to do...sucks


----------



## ultron

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> The way S/PDIF output on X-Fi cards work is kind of weird. It's largely independent of the Windows speaker setting; instead, what you do is check "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" in the control panel, which does exactly what it says on the tin.


 
  Finally got my X-fi Titanium (SB0880) after 2.5 weeks.. USPS to Canada takes forever.  I tried this and it only works in "Audio Creation Mode", in which there is no CMSS3D.
 Only tried it for a bit but CMSS3D sounds pretty much the same as X-fi MB2... perhaps a little more seamless between the different directions, but it might just be in my head.
 Latency is the same as X-Fi MB which surprised me, around 40ms.

 Edit: The "What U Hear" trick works. 100ms on the x-fi vs 140ms on the Realtek. Also tried the "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" option in Audio creation mode and it does infact have 0 latency... just no way to use it with CMSS3D that I can figure out.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ultron said:


> Finally got my X-fi Titanium (SB0880) after 2.5 weeks.. USPS to Canada takes forever.  I tried this and it only works in "Audio Creation Mode", in which there is no CMSS3D.
> Only tried it for a bit but CMSS3D sounds pretty much the same as X-fi MB2... perhaps a little more seamless between the different directions, but it might just be in my head.
> Latency is the same as X-Fi MB which surprised me, around 40ms.
> 
> Edit: The "What U Hear" trick works. 100ms on the x-fi vs 140ms on the Realtek. Also tried the "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" option in Audio creation mode and it does infact have 0 latency... just no way to use it with CMSS3D that I can figure out.


 
   
  That's strange. S/PDIF output should work fine in Game Mode. Probably Entertainment Mode too, but I never use that mode.
   
  Do you still have working analog output from the card in Game Mode?


----------



## ultron

Yeah, card seems fine otherwise.
 Finding so many conflicting answers on whether or not this is supposed to work when googling around.
  
  I'm getting the feeling it only works on CA20K2 based cards, ie: Titanium HD and Auzentech Forte.


----------



## crzycuyler

What is the best binaural audio technology? If this is subjective, what is commonly considered the best? 
   
  I see a lot of recommendations for the Titanium HD soundcard, but this does not have Dolby Headphone (or does it?) which is raved about, yet the card is raved about? What is with the HT Omega soundcards? It seems they boast DH and a nice amplifier. Are they not ideal for gaming, or  are they very new? I don't understand how to choose.


----------



## ultron

There's some CMSS3D / Dolby Headphone encoded comparisons on youtube... listen for yourself.
 Here's one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9ApNLMmeAs
 I found a thread with recordings comparing the two in many games but can't find the link now.
   
  Found it: http://forum.ixbt.com/topic.cgi?id=12:52795


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> What is the best binaural audio technology? If this is subjective, what is commonly considered the best?
> 
> I see a lot of recommendations for the Titanium HD sound card, but this does not have Dolby Headphone (or does it?) which is raved about, yet the card is raved about? What is with the HT Omega sound cards? It seems they boast DH and a nice amplifier. Are they not ideal for gaming, or  are they very new? I don't understand how to choose.


 
  There are two main audio processing chips used in "Name Brand" add-on sound cards.
  Creative Labs, with CMSS-3D
  C-Media, with Dolby Headphone
   
  Pick your poison.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





ultron said:


> Yeah, card seems fine otherwise.
> Finding so many conflicting answers on whether or not this is supposed to work when googling around.
> 
> I'm getting the feeling it only works on CA20K2 based cards, ie: Titanium HD and Auzentech Forte.


 
   
  Hi - I have a Titanium X-Fi PCI Express (not the HD) - assume it's same you have?  I only bought it for gaming dsps - for my music I just go straight to my external DAC.  Anyway - just to reassure you - mine is working fine.  My set-up is:
   
  PC with Win7 (onboard audio disabled), X-Fi > spdif (optical) to NFB-12 > either headphones direct, or RCAs to LD MKIV and then to headphones.
   
  With Foobar - music, I set default device to SPDIF OUT (Creative SB X-Fi) & I bypass all the dsps and go straight to the NFB-12.
   
  With gaming, I set default device to "Speakers" (Creative SB X-Fi), but on the Recoding tab I have "What You Hear" set-up - listen to this device checkbox ticked, playback device SPDIF Out (Creative SB X-Fi) selected.  It is working 100% - full surround with CMSS-3D (7 speaker emulation).
   
  I did notice when I first set-it up (crummy Creative drivers) that sound stopped working altogether after I made the changes.  All I did was quickly disable and re-enable the device, then everything worked.  You could also try rebooting after you've made the changes.
   
  Just remember after making the changes - you need to configure the "Speakers" output to desired number of speakers etc - and also make sure (Properties/Sound Blaster) that CMSS-3D is turned on.
   
  Hope this helps.  Took me a while to get it figured out at first - but seems to work really well.


----------



## ultron

Hi Brooko, thanks for the post. I did try that trick and it does work as expected. My issue is the latency with Stereo Mix is too high and it drives me nuts. I'd take less-than-optimal SQ over 100ms+ added latency any day when it comes to anything fast paced or for rhythm games.

 I take it you were unsuccessful at getting the "Play stereo mix using digital output" to work in game/entertainment mode too?

 I'm not sure which card to get now. Looking at the Xonar DGX at $40. Wish I had more PCI slots for the cheaper cards. mATX motherboard.. never again.


----------



## Brooko

Quote: 





ultron said:


> Hi Brooko, thanks for the post. I did try that trick and it does work as expected. My issue is the latency with Stereo Mix is too high and it drives me nuts. I'd take less-than-optimal SQ over 100ms+ added latency any day when it comes to anything fast paced or for rhythm games.
> 
> I take it you were unsuccessful at getting the "Play stereo mix using digital output" to work in game/entertainment mode too?
> 
> I'm not sure which card to get now. Looking at the Xonar DGX at $40. Wish I had more PCI slots for the cheaper cards. mATX motherboard.. never again.


 
   
  Yep stereo mix via digital a no-go, but as I don't use it, there's no issue for me anyway.  I haven't noticed any latency - but a lot of my games are older FPS - and I've found the implementation of CMSS-3D + the Alchemy implementation works quite nicely on some of my older software.
   
  Wish you luck with your search.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ultron said:


> Yeah, card seems fine otherwise.
> Finding so many conflicting answers on whether or not this is supposed to work when googling around.
> 
> I'm getting the feeling it only works on CA20K2 based cards, ie: Titanium HD and Auzentech Forte.


 
   
  I still have my CA20k1 (PCI)-based X-Fi Prelude, although it currently resides in my XP-based desktop. (I actually bought newer sound cards solely so that I could move the Prelude to the older computer and not lose full X-Fi functionality on my primary Win7-based desktop.) Time to do some testing whenever I've got free time.
   
  Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> What is the best binaural audio technology? If this is subjective, what is commonly considered the best?
> 
> I see a lot of recommendations for the Titanium HD soundcard, but this does not have Dolby Headphone (or does it?) which is raved about, yet the card is raved about? What is with the HT Omega soundcards? It seems they boast DH and a nice amplifier. Are they not ideal for gaming, or are they very new? I don't understand how to choose.


 
   
  X-Fi cards use CMSS-3D Headphone instead. Works on par with Dolby Headphone for software audio games (XAudio2, FMOD Ex), since it's just getting virtual 7.1. The only thing is that they have opposite sound signature colorations: DH favors bass, CMSS-3D favors treble. Fortunately, that's why the EQ is there.
   
  Throw a DirectSound3D or OpenAL game at it, though, and it's no contest. Proper 3D binaural sound beats virtual 7.1 any day, and Dolby Headphone isn't made to use the extra 3DPA information it could get with those APIs. Playing Unreal Tournament or Battlefield 1942/Vietnam/2/2142 with it is like having an aural wallhack.
   
  They both still suffer from having a generic/average HRTF when people have unique HRTFs, though. Rapture3D mitigates it by providing six different HRTFs, but it only works with OpenAL games with no DirectSound3D wrapper. The Smyth Realiser gets around it by using earbud microphones and playing calibration tones through a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker system, but then you need access to a good speaker system to make that recording with, and it's still only virtual 7.1, not true 3D binaural audio.
   
  So why does Dolby Headphone get all the hype? I chalk it up to Mad Lust Envy's big thread, and since he's a console-only gamer, he doesn't have CMSS-3D Headphone as a choice anyway (given that it's only relevant to PC gaming). Of course, DH earned that hype by being good at what it does, and I do like it a lot for my console games, but for PC gaming, I just prefer CMSS-3D hands down.


----------



## crzycuyler

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> X-Fi cards use CMSS-3D Headphone instead. Works on par with Dolby Headphone for software audio games (XAudio2, FMOD Ex), since it's just getting virtual 7.1. The only thing is that they have opposite sound signature colorations: DH favors bass, CMSS-3D favors treble. Fortunately, that's why the EQ is there.
> 
> Throw a DirectSound3D or OpenAL game at it, though, and it's no contest. Proper 3D binaural sound beats virtual 7.1 any day, and Dolby Headphone isn't made to use the extra 3DPA information it could get with those APIs. Playing Unreal Tournament or Battlefield 1942/Vietnam/2/2142 with it is like having an aural wallhack.
> 
> ...


 
  I appreciate you sharing your wealth of knowledge on the subject matter. I value your opinion. I've got a few questions that I've developed based on my needs and from reading the forums. I will be building a gaming computer in the late Fall/Winter and am very dedicated to building it right. 
   
  My favorite games are from The Elder Scroll's series and the Fallout series, which I believe I've read (from you) that they use something called DirectSound3D which offers great benefit with the CMSS-3D technology. How so?
   
  I posted this on MLE's thread about my gaming desires. 
  Quote: 





> I've decided the best scenario that depicts the experience I am desiring is of that demonstrated by sitting in a bar in Fallout 3 (Moriarty's Saloon if you know it) and being able to hear the radio with its old time tunes and static interference (ever so often smacked by Gob when experience more than normal static) with customers and workers alike walking around and participating in drab conversation. I desire to know the location of the radio and people within the room and to hear it as though I were there in those dark times and not as though I am experiencing this situation through a pair of headphones. This may sound like an obvious desire, but it excites me to paint this picture. I want to hear the depth of the Sheriffs voice and feel the impact of grenades and mini-nukes in VATS as raider and mutants scream for their lives in slow motion. I want to roam the wastleland with the Pip Boy's radio dialed into GNR and Three Dog's crazy support to "fighting the good fight". I play other games, but if a headphone fits this bill, it will serve just fine in all likely scenarios I am to experience.


 
  So you can see that directional queues are important, but that I am not competitive. I will enjoy the quality of sound quite a bit as much as directional queues. I come from an analytical music background with speakers. Tonality and natural presentation is important!

 It seems there are a notable amount of complaints due to drivers and other unique errors for the CMSS-3D sound cards? Do you see this as an issue, or are there an overwhelming number of people who just don't know what they are doing with the hardware and software?
   
  I plan to use both headphones and speakers for gaming. I am starting with stereo speakers but will very likely progress to a surround sound system of great caliber. What is the ideal technology to use per situation (headphone, stereo speakers, and surround sound speakers)? I get the feeling that once surround sound speakers are in the equation, the sound card's DAC is the only thing that is valuable (if it is any good). Would it be ideal to just send the audio along a digital output to an AV processor of some sort? Also, do stereo speakers benefit from the sound card's technologies, or would those be treated the same as surround sound with an AV processor?
   
  Do you know how these cards and technologies will hold up with Windows 8? When I build the computer, I will very likely be getting Windows 8 for free and would like to use it. Would I find compatibility issues? It sounds like CMSS-3D has its challenges with drivers and I want to know if I will find support for Windows 8.
   
  Based on my needs, do you have any specific recommendations for sound cards? I am willing to throw down some money to grab the better unit if I'm am convinced I will benefit from the additional something. On newegg, I see Asus, Creative, and HT Omega sound cards (very highly rated, but not discussed in these forums). Why is it HT Omega has such great reviews?

 I am very curious as to the quality of the headphone amplifiers built into the sound cards as well. I was told that the cards with CMSS-3D don't have the best of amplifiers. Is this correct? Are there any known work arounds with external amplifiers or other devices? I have considered starting with a set of Beyerdynamic DT770 PRO (250 ohm) headphones. I don't want to have to question whether I am driving them well enough.
   
  I really think I laid everything that I can think of out in these questions. I know it is a lot. Any help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## ultron

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> I am very curious as to the quality of the headphone amplifiers built into the sound cards as well. I was told that the cards with CMSS-3D don't have the best of amplifiers. Is this correct? Are there any known work arounds with external amplifiers or other devices? I have considered starting with a set of Beyerdynamic DT770 PRO (250 ohm) headphones. I don't want to have to question whether I am driving them well enough.


 

 That's something I wish I knew more about, the output impedance of various headphone outs in particular.
 I know the Titanium HD is around 36 ohm, and the Xonar STX around 10 ohm.  I think most Xonar cards are 100 ohm.
 One card I'd like to know the output impedance of is the Auzentech Forte.


----------



## NamelessPFG

The Elder Scrolls and Fallout, huh?
   
  Arena and Daggerfall are DOS games, so they wouldn't benefit. Morrowind uses DirectSound3D; no mentions of EAX, but you should get the positional audio advantage. Oblivion has an ALchemy entry, suggesting it uses DirectSound3D, but I can't say for sure or not if that actually is the case. Skyrim has purely software-driven audio.
   
  Fallout 1 and 2 are isometric-perspective games that wouldn't benefit anyway. I'm not sure about Fallout 3 and New Vegas; even though I do own them, I haven't even played either one yet simply because I keep putting Fallout 2 off for some reason. Still, I could fire them up and test them out a bit to make sure, since I have a knack for this sort of thing. (It's incredibly obvious to my ears whether CMSS-3D Headphone is getting proper 3DPA data or 7.1 channels.)
   
  I do have to warn you that all these binaural surround technologies will probably result in a slight hit to sound quality in exchange for the positional benefits. Whether you'll find that acceptable or not is something only you can decide. The only one that might negate any sound quality hit is the Smyth Realiser, given the hype-filled reactions and that $3,000+ price tag, and that ultimately will depend on what speaker system and room you can make a recording in.
   
  If it's really slamming/impactful bass you want for those explosions, though, I don't think any headphone will really deliver compared to a full-range speaker or a subwoofer. I've thought about adding a subwoofer to my headphone setup precisely to get around this, but I just don't have the money for it right now. (Good subwoofers that can go all the way down to 20 Hz and not sound like "one-note bass" probably aren't cheap by any means.)
   
  For a home theater surround sound system with an external receiver, the sound card is just a DSP at that point because the DAC that's actually doing the work is in the receiver. Do note that for S/PDIF, you'll need to enable Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect to actually get the surround channels to the receiver. Only a select few sound cards have HDMI, those being the Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD and Asus Xonar HDAV, all of which I recall being stuck on the slightly outdated HDMI 1.3 standard (we're on HDMI 1.4 now). You could let the graphics card handle HDMI audio...if you don't mind losing hardware-accelerated DirectSound3D and OpenAL support (along with EAX) in the process.
   
  As for X-Fi drivers, Creative does not have the best track record, to say the least. I must be lucky, because over the past few years, my cards (X-Fi Prelude, X-Fi Forte, X-Fi HomeTheater HD) have worked in Windows 7 64-bit generally without complaint. The Titanium HD in particular has a very solid driver base, with less quirks in the time I've had it compared to the Auzentech cards (which still use Creative's drivers).
   
  However, I should point out that it's not like other brands of sound devices don't have issues. I've read complaints about Xonar cards (specifically sudden loud ear-popping noises). I've read complaints about Realtek integrated audio codecs. Seems like anyone who owns a sound device is going to have problems with it somewhere along the line due to drivers, no matter the brand. About the only one I haven't heard complaints about is HT Omega, and that's just because nobody seems to buy or talk about their cards. Any time someone goes shopping for a C-Media chipset card, it's always Asus and not HT Omega for some reason, perhaps because HT Omega offers almost no PCI-Express cards while Asus has several. (The entire Claro Halo line is PCI-only, and slightly more expensive than the Essence ST(X).)
   
  For Windows 8 support, it looks like Creative's released some "beta" drivers that might install and work. I haven't tested them myself simply because I really don't like the UI direction Microsoft is taking with Windows 8. Still, I wouldn't worry too much about Windows 8 driver support once it releases, since it's not like there's a major sound stack change like the XP-to-Vista transition and it looks like Creative will properly support their hardware under the new OS.
   
  X-Fi cards are not known for having proper headphone amplifiers built-in. With something like a Xonar Essence STX or the HT Omega Claro Halo, it's like having a FiiO E9 built-in at less extra cost than buying the Titanium HD and an E9. Since most people opt for more demanding dynamic/ortho headphones when starting out their Head-Fi journey and aren't as insistent on gaming DSP features as I am, they find the C-Media cards the more cost-effective buy.
   
  However, if you're going to buy an external amp anyway, suddenly the Titanium HD becomes the more cost-effective card since you're not paying for headphone amp circuitry you're not using. This works out pretty well for me since my Stax SR-Lambda, like all electrostatics, cannot be driven by conventional amplifiers directly, and all of my dynamic headphones are sensitive enough to work out of anything unamped. It also makes matching the amp to the headphones that much easier, whereas people with good amps in their sound cards might instead try to match the headphones to their amp and limit their options.
   
  As for a final sound card recommendation, because you want to set up a surround speaker system, I can only recommend the Titanium HD or any other two-analog-channel card if you're planning to connect the surround speaker system via S/PDIF to a receiver and switching between it and headphones by turning Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect on or off. (The X-Fi control panel will automatically switch to 5.1 when you turn it on, and back to the last speaker mode when you turn it off, making it easy.
   
  Hope this helps, even if it's a lot of text to read.


----------



## crzycuyler

Do games have to have DirectSound 3D and OpenAL to benefit from the CMSS-3D technology, or when they do have these are they especially synergetic? I don't really understand what software-driven audio concludes. Does the sound card play a role, or would any standard headphone outlet have the surround sound headphone experience because of the software-driven audio?
   
  I don't think I like the fact that using CMSS-3D lowers the audio quality.


----------



## NamelessPFG

It's more like "good with XAudio2 and FMOD Ex, way better with DirectSound3D and OpenAL". It's not completely useless with 5.1/7.1 sources and works about as well as Dolby Headphone does, but the binaural mixing it provides from proper 3DPA sources is just better beyond comparison.
   
  The sound quality hit, as I said, also comes into play with Dolby Headphone or any other generic HRTF-based binaural mixing technology. It's going to sound a bit weird compared to plain stereo mode no matter what you use. If it really bugs you, the only real solution short of losing all semblance of front and rear positioning (in other words, playing in plain one-dimensional stereo) is the Smyth Realiser. People say it's so good that they couldn't actually tell their speakers weren't on until they took off the headphones. But with that $3,000+ price tag...sorry about your wallet.
   
  My solution is to simply turn it on for gaming and turn it off when listening to music. For me, the sound quality hit isn't distracting when gaming, and the positional audio cues are far more beneficial.
   
  I suggest just trying CMSS-3D Headphone for a bit and then deciding whether or not you can live with it for headphone use, or if it annoys you to the point where you can only comfortably game with a surround speaker system, or plain stereo with headphones. You can read all the text impressions on a forum that you want, but only your ears and preferences can make the final decision.


----------



## crzycuyler

Well, I am not playing a single competitive game that needs surround sound queues. Would you say that the hit to sound quality is evident to the point that you will always notice it, or it is there when you look for it? I am only looking for immersion. My desire to have directional queues is not for more successful game play but for feeling the environment for sake of immersion.

 What headphone/headset might you suggest to demo this technology? Can this "Creative - Sound Blaster X-Fi Go! Pro External USB Sound Card" give me a proper idea of how this technology will sound to me, or is it lacking substantially?


----------



## 0sync0

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> the binaural mixing it provides from proper 3DPA sources is just better beyond comparison.


 
  I'm wondering what percentage of games have proper 3DPA sources. I googled '3dpa games' and didn't come up with anything.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





> *crzycuyler* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Well, I am not playing a single competitive game that needs surround sound queues. Would you say that the hit to sound quality is evident to the point that you will always notice it, or it is there when you look for it? I am only looking for immersion. My desire to have directional queues is not for more successful game play but for feeling the environment for sake of immersion.
> 
> What headphone/headset might you suggest to demo this technology? Can this "Creative - Sound Blaster X-Fi Go! Pro External USB Sound Card" give me a proper idea of how this technology will sound to me, or is it lacking substantially?


 
   
  I don't think it's so evident that I always notice it, not at all. It's something you can notice if you're actively listening for it, but chances are you're not really listening to gaming audio the same way you listen to music.
   
  I do find that having the directional cues helps a lot with immersion, in that it feels more like I'm being surrounded by sounds instead of simply being flanked by them.
   
  Unfortunately, all the "X-Fi" USB devices lack the CA20k1/20k2 DSP that the internal sound cards bear, and thus I don't trust their implementation of CMSS-3D Headphone all that much. I suggest finding an XtremeMusic, XtremeGamer, or Titanium for $40 or less; eBay helps a lot.
   


> Originally Posted by *0sync0* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> I'm wondering what percentage of games have proper 3DPA sources. I googled '3dpa games' and didn't come up with anything.


 
   
   
  "3DPA" is just shorthand for "3D positional audio", which any game that uses the DirectSound3D or OpenAL APIs will deliver.
   
  (I've gotta ease up on the jargon here.)


----------



## Phos

"3DPA" already has a meaning, so it doesn't seem like a good word for it.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Can't say I've heard of any other meanings until now. Only encountered that particular acronym in the usual threads from lith in the Creative forums.
   
  Regardless, I think I've made myself clear that if you play anything that uses DirectSound3D or OpenAL, you'll only get the maximum benefit of their 3D positional audio approach with an X-Fi card. (Unless it's one of the few really old Win9x-era DS3D games that used Aureal A3D 2.0/3.0, in which case you'll have to set yourself up an old Win9x-era computer with an Aureal Vortex2 card to hear them properly with the wavetracing and everything.)


----------



## crzycuyler

I don't quite understand software-driven audio. Can Skyrim give the surround sound headphone affect without a dedicated soundcard or additional software and drivers?


----------



## 0sync0

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> I don't quite understand software-driven audio. Can Skyrim give the surround sound headphone affect without a dedicated soundcard or additional software and drivers?


 

 No, the headphone surround isn't in the game. You need a separate DSP to get headphone surround.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> I don't quite understand software-driven audio. Can Skyrim give the surround sound headphone affect without a dedicated soundcard or additional software and drivers?


 
   
  Unfortunately, no, and that's why the trend toward software-mixed audio (as done by XAudio2 or FMOD Ex, not by something like Rapture3D) in the gaming industry irritates me so much. They don't care about headphone users seeking 3D binaural sound like they've had since Aureal burst out onto the scene over a decade ago (yes, a big part of A3D was HRTF-based binaural audio over headphones or stereo speakers) because they think everyone just uses 5.1/7.1 speakers for gaming, or so it seems.
   
  It's also why console gamers like Mad Lust Envy buy things like Astro Mixamps. If common middleware solutions like FMOD Ex had binaural mixing to begin with, I'm sure that it would work with both PCs and consoles with no additional hardware DSP devices, which sure would make our lives much easier when it comes down to picking the right sound hardware for gaming.


----------



## crzycuyler

It has been suggested to me that the CMSS-3D has the best positioning capabilities but with a greater hit in sound quality compared to Dolby Headphone. Is this the case? If so, I would like to consider the technology that gives the best of both worlds. I am very analytical about my audio. I am selling B&W 685s (not quite to my liking) and will possibly be purchasing Sonus Faber Toy Towers down the road (if you know of either of these).


----------



## NamelessPFG

Having tested both (connecting my JVC/Victor SU-DH1 Dolby Headphone DAC/DSP to my X-Fi Titanium HD, and then configuring things on the X-Fi side for CMSS-3D Headphone or Dolby Digital Live -> Dolby Headphone on the SU-DH1), I don't think one has a greater hit in sound quality than the other so much as they have opposite tonal shifts.
   
  CMSS-3D Headphone pronounces treble and tones down the bass a bit. Dolby Headphone favors bass and tones down the treble slightly. Most people don't think of using the EQ to get around this, and when they want bass...you see where this is going.
   
  The sound quality hit is mostly in that to get the sound out from direct left/right, both technologies have to process it in a way that it sounds slightly muffled compared to pure stereo, for lack of a better description.
   
  At least with an X-Fi card, you have options. CMSS-3D Headphone is in there, and if you don't like it, send a Dolby Digital Live stream to an A/V receiver with Dolby Headphone support (like the Harmon-Kardon AVR 254 or AVR 354, for example) and try that. If that's still not enough, send the stream to a Smyth Realiser once you've used it to record the characteristics of a surround speaker system you really like.
   
  I can't say I'm too familiar with loudspeakers; they're just way out of my budget to get some good ones, especially factoring in the room treatment. But if I could afford them and find a place for them in my house, I'd try out some Quad ESL-57s or ESL-63s to find out if they can deliver what I love about my Stax SR-Lambda in loudspeaker form.


----------



## crzycuyler

An ESL fan? I have also considered the Martin Logan ElectroMotion. It seems a bit too bright to me though.
   
  Would pairing a bassy headphone with a X-Fi card without changing EQ make a good match?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> An ESL fan? I have also considered the Martin Logan ElectroMotion. It seems a bit too bright to me though.
> 
> Would pairing a bassy headphone with a X-Fi card without changing EQ make a good match?


 
   
  Electrostatic enthusiasts consider the MartinLogan ones trash...apparently, it's all about Quad and Acoustat. Not that I have anything to say directly, for I've never heard any ESL model with my own two ears. (Nobody around me owns any electrostatic gear, let alone knows that it exists.)
   
  I'll admit, I got into electrostatics out of sheer curiosity about a relatively exotic technology...well, that and people were singing praises about Stax Lambdas for gaming as well as music. I was ultimately pleased when I got my first SR-Lambda set, even if it means I have to have this big A/V receiver on my desk to feed the bundled transformer box that drives these headphones. (Dedicated 'stat amps are out of my reach for now.)
   
  I don't see why bassy headphones paired with X-Fi cards would be a cause for concern, even with EQ and bass boost off. The headphones themselves are providing the majority of the frequency response coloration, after all.


----------



## 0sync0

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> I am very analytical about my audio.


 
  Even when gaming?
   
  Go for the Smyth Realiser if you want the best.


----------



## crzycuyler

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Electrostatic enthusiasts consider the MartinLogan ones trash...apparently, it's all about Quad and Acoustat. Not that I have anything to say directly, for I've never heard any ESL model with my own two ears. (Nobody around me owns any electrostatic gear, let alone knows that it exists.)
> 
> I'll admit, I got into electrostatics out of sheer curiosity about a relatively exotic technology...well, that and people were singing praises about Stax Lambdas for gaming as well as music. I was ultimately pleased when I got my first SR-Lambda set, even if it means I have to have this big A/V receiver on my desk to feed the bundled transformer box that drives these headphones. (Dedicated 'stat amps are out of my reach for now.)
> 
> I don't see why bassy headphones paired with X-Fi cards would be a cause for concern, even with EQ and bass boost off. The headphones themselves are providing the majority of the frequency response coloration, after all.


 
   
  Who says Martin Logan is trash? Is it just that they use hybrid speakers. There is an electrostat transducer and a woofer. They are nice speakers. I really am considering them. The battle in my mind (although completely different sounds) is the Sonus Faber Toy Tower vs Martin Logan ElectroMotion. I work at Best Buy and get extraordinary discounts on products such as these.
   
  Quote: 





0sync0 said:


> Even when gaming?
> 
> Go for the Smyth Realiser if you want the best.


 
  I can't even begin to justify that price. It looks quite dreamy, though.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> Who says Martin Logan is trash? Is it just that they use hybrid speakers. There is an electrostat transducer and a woofer. They are nice speakers. I really am considering them. The battle in my mind (although completely different sounds) is the Sonus Faber Toy Tower vs Martin Logan ElectroMotion. I work at Best Buy and get extraordinary discounts on products such as these.


 
   
  It's less about the hybrid speaker aspect and more about their use of curved panels, which makes it difficult, if not impossible, to distribute the force evenly across the electrostatic diaphragm. So they say, anyway.
   
  You could ask spritzer if you want more information on anything electrostatic. The Stax community holds him in high regard, enough to be the don of the Stax Mafia in a sense.
   
  I figured the Smyth Realiser would be out of your price range, but at least it's something to aspire to if you want no-compromises virtual 7.1.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Anyone heard about this?
   
  http://www.myears.net.au/
   
   
  Quote: 





> The MyEars™ service is one of Personal Audio�s products for video games. It enables the superb listening experience produced by NextGen video games and 7.1 sound systems over headphones. This results in a much greater sense of immersion in the games and a competitive advantage for gamers.
> The MyEars™ service uses a series of listening tests so that our prediction engine can generate your personalised listening profile. You then download your profile together with the rendering tool MyEars-Connect and these install automatically onto your PC. MyEars-Connect will allow you to play any video-game that outputs surround sound over headphones and use your MyEars audio profile to experience the stunning immersion of this NextGen audio � all without the expense and hassle of a speaker based audio system. For 12 months from the data of purchase we will host your profiles in your MyEars account which you can access from any connected PC. This means that you can use your MyEars™ profile where ever you are. It also means that when you upgrade or change your headphones you can come back and recalibrate your listening. During this period you will also get upgrades and enhancement to MyEars Connect and of course the MyEars prediction Engine will continue to improve. Of course we will also keep you informed of other major upgrades such adding more platforms eg Xbox, PS3, iPhone/iPad etc.
> MyEars™ connect is our PC solution (other platforms coming soon) to enable perfect surround sound for all legacy games over headphones. Your games will need to support surround sound to take advantage of this option, most NextGen games provide this, check out the games audio option set up panel. If you want to try before you but simply join up, its free, you can create your own individualised audio profiles and download them to you PC and you have 14 days to experience the MyEars difference. Once you are satisfied you can easily come back to your account on the MyEars and purchase your profile for gaming, anywhere, anytime.


----------



## 0sync0

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> Anyone heard about this?
> 
> http://www.myears.net.au/


 

 I tried it briefly last week. I found the calibration process frustrating. Even they say people have difficulty with it.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Refurb X-Fi Titaniums for $52 shipped on Newegg!
   
  This is more in line with what the card should cost normally. Might want to get in on this if you're looking for a reasonably affordable sound card for PC gaming with a PCIe interface.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Refurb X-Fi Titaniums for $52 shipped on Newegg!
> 
> This is more in line with what the card should cost normally. Might want to get in on this if you're looking for a reasonably affordable sound card for PC gaming with a PCIe interface.


 
  I'm an Xonar fan, but $52 for the X-fi Titanium (non-HD) is a good value.
  Do you know if it ships with Alchemy for free or is it a separate $10 charge for Alchemy?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> I'm an Xonar fan, but $52 for the X-fi Titanium (non-HD) is a good value.
> Do you know if it ships with Alchemy for free or is it a separate $10 charge for Alchemy?


 
   
  All X-Fi cards come with ALchemy.
   
  It's the Audigy cards that Creative tried to make ALchemy payware for, but Daniel_K may have put a dent in that after hacking an early version of ALchemy to work on any sound device.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Why did Creative not allow 7.1 for Titanium HDs in the Windows Audio Panel? Other cards like the X-Fi Titanium Fatality etc. offer the ability. In theory (for CMSS-3D) 7.1 should give an even better HRTF.


----------



## Phos

I have my windows sound set to 7.1.  Seems to work fine.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> Why did Creative not allow 7.1 for Titanium HDs in the Windows Audio Panel? Other cards like the X-Fi Titanium Fatality etc. offer the ability. In theory (for CMSS-3D) 7.1 should give an even better HRTF.


 
   
  Those other cards support 7.1 analog output.
   
  The Titanium HD only outputs stereo through analog, and only supports 5.1 because of Dolby Digital/DTS support through S/PDIF. No HDMI output, either.
   
  Creative really should've released a 7.1 expansion card or something, like the Essence ST, Claro Halo, and SE-300PCIE have.


----------



## Fegefeuer

That SE-300PCIE is heavy to import to Germany. A shame. I would have gotten one already.
   
  At least virtually Creative could have offered 7.1, just for CMSS-3D. Dolby Digital Live autoswitches to 5.1 anyway. 
   
  Another question: I setup Alchemy for Source Games manually, not with registry settings but with direct steam folder names where the executable is located. I entered the snd_legacy_surround in config.cfg and my own autoexec.cfg. This should be sufficient or is there some magic requirement of registry settings in Alchemy? I can't imagine that.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I feel for you on the SE-300PCIE. Importing that thing to the US is also pretty expensive.
   
  ALchemy shouldn't require any registry settings. It's just that Creative liked to set it up to use those to get the installation path. Can't say I blame them given that I never use default installation paths, and a lot of other people probably change them too.
   
  I don't even bother with the ALchemy interface most of the time; I just copy the dsound.dll and dsound.ini to the game's executable directory (or, in the case of Source engine games without obvious executables, the root directory).
   
  As for Source games, just setting snd_legacy_surround 1 should be sufficient. (The only Source game I've encountered that didn't have the option at all for whatever reason is The Ship.)


----------



## Dead Ghost

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Problem is, most games do not encode Dolby Digital or DTS on-the-fly, so the sound output device needs to support Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect to work as intended. Once that's done, external A/V receivers and headphone DSPs like the Astro Mixamp, Turtle Beach Ear Force DSS, and JVC/Victor SU-DH1 will actually have some surround information to work with.


 
  Sorry, i don't know if this was answered before, are you saying that if i use a DSP like Astro Mixamp, directly from the digital output of a motherboard's soundcard that doesn't support Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect, i won't get the full surround effect (like Dolby Headphone, in the case of JVC DH1 or Ear Force DSS)? Is this correct? 
   
  Btw, thank you for your very informative post, it's really useful.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





dead ghost said:


> Sorry, i don't know if this was answered before, are you saying that if i use a DSP like Astro Mixamp, directly from the digital output of a motherboard's soundcard that doesn't support Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect, i won't get the full surround effect (like Dolby Headphone, in the case of JVC DH1 or Ear Force DSS)? Is this correct?
> 
> Btw, thank you for your very informative post, it's really useful.


 
   
  Exactly. If you use an external DSP/DAC like those with only stereo PCM over S/PDIF, then you're basically getting a simulation of two stereo speakers in front of you with Dolby Headphone on, with no surround cues because the surround channels aren't there.
   
  For PC gaming, it's much more practical to just buy a sound card. More features (including CMSS-3D Headphone or Dolby Headphone), less cost, and probably even better sound quality. Those external devices like the Mixamp are better suited toward console gaming.
   
  You're welcome; I try to help in any way I can.


----------



## Dead Ghost

Buying a sound card is not a problem, except that i want a mini itx gaming system, and there's no room for one. 
   
Anyway, would you say that DirectSound3D and OpenAL APIs are pretty much dead these days? Especially for games coming from consoles (pc ports)?


----------



## Calcifar

Heya,


 Great guide and i hope this is the right spot to get some insightful answers. I checked many guides and opinions by now but am unable to find the exact info which I need.

 Now, I got myself the ATH A700 and a xonar DX. I wasnt too happy with the A700 though, the pleather and over- size ruined it for me, the sound was great though.

 I am now planning on ordering a DT880 premium 250 ohm from Amazon, after returning the A700.
 I red that the Xonar DX wont have enough juice to drive the DT880 well enough so Im looking at alternatives in form of other sound cards.

 Took a look at the Xonar ST on amazon but there are so many of them for different prices, I am very uncertain which one actually would be the right one for driving 250 ohm ?

 Here my search results :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=xonar+st&x=0&y=0







 Can i get away with something cheaper than the St in order to drive the Dt 880 250Ohm to it's full potential ?
 The ST is already cranking my Budget quite a bit to be honest but if it's the best option, Id still go for it i suppose.

 Also, can my Ipod drive the 250 Ohm by itself, if not, is a 20 dollar FIO enough ?

 Some answers here would be of immense help to me, Im just very new to the audiophile world.


 Also, awesome guide there, kudos!


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





dead ghost said:


> Buying a sound card is not a problem, except that i want a mini itx gaming system, and there's no room for one.
> 
> Anyway, would you say that DirectSound3D and OpenAL APIs are pretty much dead these days? Especially for games coming from consoles (pc ports)?


 
   
  Unfortunately...save for the occasional indie game that uses OpenAL, Codemasters racing game, or Source engine games with the Miles Sound System that have a console command to enable DirectSound3D mode, new releases are practically all XAudio2 and FMOD Ex now. It's probably because of the prevalence of console ports.
   
  I just consider support for those APIs so important because I still like to fire up the good old games fairly often, and wrappers like ALchemy ensure that DS3D games still sound like they're supposed to. I admit that my tastes are somewhat more retro than most people around here, but not to the point where I entirely swear off new releases.
   


calcifar said:


> Great guide and i hope this is the right spot to get some insightful answers. I checked many guides and opinions by now but am unable to find the exact info which I need.
> 
> Now, I got myself the ATH A700 and a xonar DX. I wasnt too happy with the A700 though, the pleather and over- size ruined it for me, the sound was great though.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks!
   
  Is there any particular reason you want to replace your sound card outright? It would be more affordable and practical to just get an external headphone amp and connect it to your Xonar DX, something like a FiiO E9 (which has the same amplifier IC that the Essence STX does) or an Objective2 to start out with.


----------



## seanmcloughlin7

I was redirected here because I am awaiting new headphones for PC gaming and needed advice on sound cards/amps. I am getting the Beyerdynamic DT990 pro set and had an Asus Xonar DX ordered but I was told it won't let the headphones reach any sort of strong volume level so when it arrives I will return it, I have since ordered a Xonar DG soundcard because it has a built in amp but now I am told it still won't be quite good enough to get the fullness out of the DT990s. 
  So here I am asking for some help, will the Xonar DGs amp suffice or do I need something better like a FiiO E11 between the headphones and the card?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





seanmcloughlin7 said:


> I was redirected here because I am awaiting new headphones for PC gaming and needed advice on sound cards/amps. I am getting the Beyerdynamic DT990 pro set and had an Asus Xonar DX ordered but I was told it won't let the headphones reach any sort of strong volume level so when it arrives I will return it, I have since ordered a Xonar DG soundcard because it has a built in amp but now I am told it still won't be quite good enough to get the fullness out of the DT990s.
> So here I am asking for some help, will the Xonar DGs amp suffice or do I need something better like a FiiO E11 between the headphones and the card?


 
  The Xonar DG/E11 combo would be a good value.
  The DG has a decent DAC and the E11 can be used for desktop or portable use.
  The E11 is a better amplifier then the DG.


----------



## 0sync0

Quote: 





dead ghost said:


> Buying a sound card is not a problem, except that i want a mini itx gaming system, and there's no room for one.


 
  The Asus Xonar U3 is a USB device that produces good results.


----------



## Tane

Mad Lust sent me over here saying I would be able to get a better answer out of either Nameless or anyone that has knowledge of PC and sound. My dilemma I use to game on consoles I sold them all off just built a brand new gaming PC and am stuck with a pair of Astro A40s and a Mixamp. The A40s sound quality are quit bland for the price I believe them to be just an ok headset. The thing is I plan on getting a pair of q701s for all my PC gaming desires. A few questions, I have read that the onboard sound on the motherboards just plan suck and can not do true surround sound. If this is true I will pick up Xonar DG to tide me over till next month where I am going to upgrade to Xonar Essence ST or STX not sure? Will the Xonar DG be enough to drive the q701s? Is the mixamp useless should I just sell it off with the astros a40s? I do have a turtle beach DSS lying around somewhere I could use instead. And also do the mixamp or DSS really add anything to the PC? I am pretty clueless when it comes to sound or headphones in general. Thanks for the help.


----------



## Phos

To really use either the DSS or mixamp (without a soundcard) your motherboard is going to need to do Dolby Live encoding (real time Dobly Digital).  I dunno if many integrated audio bits have HRTF modes or not.  
   
  The DSS/Mixamp are useful for a PC if you don't have anything better in it already.  The positional effects won't be any different, though I always have been leery on such devices lagging in comparison to sound cards.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





tane said:


> Mad Lust sent me over here saying I would be able to get a better answer out of either Nameless or anyone that has knowledge of PC and sound. My dilemma I use to game on consoles I sold them all off just built a brand new gaming PC and am stuck with a pair of Astro A40s and a Mixamp. The A40s sound quality are quit bland for the price I believe them to be just an ok headset. The thing is I plan on getting a pair of q701s for all my PC gaming desires. A few questions, I have read that the on-board sound on the motherboards just plan suck and can not do true surround sound. If this is true I will pick up Xonar DG to tide me over till next month where I am going to upgrade to Xonar Essence ST or STX not sure? Will the Xonar DG be enough to drive the q701s? Is the mixamp useless should I just sell it off with the astros a40s? I do have a turtle beach DSS lying around somewhere I could use instead. And also do the mixamp or DSS really add anything to the PC? I am pretty clueless when it comes to sound or headphones in general. Thanks for the help.


 
  Sell the Astro A40s and Astro Mix-amp and TBS DSS and put the cash towards getting the Essence STX, might find a used one for a decent price.


----------



## Tane

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Sell the Astro A40s and Astro Mix-amp and TBS DSS and put the cash towards getting the Essence STX, might find a used one for a decent price.


 
  That is an even better idea. No really, I am gonna buy the Essence STX instead of buying the Xonar DG and then upgrading a month later. Thanks. Newegg currently has it on sale for $169 I'll have to take a look around and see if I can find a decent price on a used one. If not I will buy new.


----------



## omelette

Quote: 





phos said:


> To really use either the DSS or mixamp (without a soundcard) your motherboard is going to need to do Dolby Live encoding (real time Dobly Digital).  I dunno if many integrated audio bits have HRTF modes or not.
> 
> The DSS/Mixamp are useful for a PC if you don't have anything better in it already.  The positional effects won't be any different, though I always have been leery on such devices lagging in comparison to sound cards.


 
   
  CMIIW, if i want to use the Dolby features in the mixamp with my laptop, should this config work??
   
  Laptop --> Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1 Pro --> mixamp --> headphones


----------



## Phos

Yeah, that'll work, the 5.1 pro has DDL.


----------



## seanmcloughlin7

Ok so my Xonar DX arrived today and I am thinking of sending it back as my Xonar DG is arriving next week. So I am asking which is the better combo. Xonar DX with a headphone amp or a Xonar DG with a headphone amp (for the extra power). I am going to be driving a pair of 250 ohm DT 990 pros


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





seanmcloughlin7 said:


> Ok so my Xonar DX arrived today and I am thinking of sending it back as my Xonar DG is arriving next week. So I am asking which is the better combo. Xonar DX with a headphone amp or a Xonar DG with a headphone amp (for the extra power). I am going to be driving a pair of 250 ohm DT 990 pros


 
  Xonar DX with an add-on external headphone amplifier.


----------



## seanmcloughlin7

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Xonar DX with an add-on external headphone amplifier.


 
  What kind of features does the DX have over the DG?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





seanmcloughlin7 said:


> What kind of features does the DX have over the DG?


 
  DX 7.1 surround, DG 5.1 surround
  DX 24/192, DG 24/96
  DX DAC CS4398, DG DAC CS4245
  DX's audio processor is the CMI8788, the DG's is CMI8786


----------



## seanmcloughlin7

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> DX 7.1 surround, DG 5.1 surround
> DX 24/192, DG 24/96
> DX DAC CS4398, DG DAC CS4245
> DX's audio processor is the CMI8788, the DG's is CMI8786


 
  Cool, I will do that then, go with the DX and use the FiiO E11 with it. Only thing is it will take the FiiO a while to arrive so I will be listening with them on low for a while at first. But should give me some contrast between no amp and then amped


----------



## drleper

I'm going to be getting DT 990s soon.
   
  would 250 ohm DT 990 pros perform significantly better (considering the price difference) using the X-Fi Titanium HD, or should I just stick with a Xonar DX? I'll be using an O2 as my amp. I don't mind paying the extra if it's worth it.
   
  edit: otherwise, what sound card WOULD be worth the extra? I can spend up to $200 on one if it is worth it


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *drleper* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> would 250 ohm DT 990 pros perform significantly better (considering the price difference) using the X-Fi Titanium HD, or should I just stick with a Xonar DX? I'll be using an O2 as my amp. I don't mind paying the extra if it's worth it.


 
   
  The Xonar DX is likely fine as long as you do not need more features (e.g. for hardware accelerated 3D audio in gaming the Titanium HD would obviously be useful), and there is no actual audible sound quality issue such as interference from other parts of the computer. Despite the low cost, it does already include a good DAC.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





drleper said:


> I'm going to be getting DT 990s soon.
> 
> would 250 ohm DT 990 pros perform significantly better (considering the price difference) using the X-Fi Titanium HD, or should I just stick with a Xonar DX? I'll be using an O2 as my amp. I don't mind paying the extra if it's worth it.
> 
> edit: otherwise, what sound card WOULD be worth the extra? I can spend up to $200 on one if it is worth it


 
  If your seriously into FPS (First Person Shooters) or older PC games (EAX 5.0), then the Titanium HD might be worth it.
  Other wise I think you'll do ok with the Xonar DX.


----------



## Kasterolle

Hi great thread, but I sadly just notised this thread. I say sadly because I have allready placed an order on some stuff, unknown to all this. I just thought a spdif would be enough..for everything I wanted..
  Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *NamelessPFG* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> -Myth: S/PDIF (coaxial/optical digital audio) cannot do surround sound!
> ...


 
  So I have to use usb?
  I am expecting the stuff this week, so I am wondering if I perhaps should send one or both back, to get something else before I open anything up.
   
  I have bought a dt880 600ohm, this I will keep *but*
  I ordered a darkvoice 336se amp and a nfb3.2 dac.
   
  I will use the dt880 for gaming (all types), and watching movies from a laptop.


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





kasterolle said:


> Hi great thread, but I sadly just notised this thread. I say sadly because I have allready placed an order on some stuff, unknown to all this. I just thought a spdif would be enough..for everything I wanted..
> So I have to use usb?
> I am expecting the stuff this week, so I am wondering if I perhaps should send one or both back, to get something else before I open anything up.
> 
> ...


 
  What card are you using?  You can usually get sound cards to output premixed virtual surround/HRTF (which uses 2 channels) over S/PDIF.


----------



## seanmcloughlin7

Quote: 





kasterolle said:


> Hi great thread, but I sadly just notised this thread. I say sadly because I have allready placed an order on some stuff, unknown to all this. I just thought a spdif would be enough..for everything I wanted..
> So I have to use usb?
> I am expecting the stuff this week, so I am wondering if I perhaps should send one or both back, to get something else before I open anything up.
> 
> ...


 
  If you have a decent soundcard it should have dolby headphone and do virtual surround anyway.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





kasterolle said:


> So I have to use usb?
> I am expecting the stuff this week, so I am wondering if I perhaps should send one or both back, to get something else before I open anything up.
> 
> I have bought a dt880 600ohm, this I will keep *but*
> ...


 
   
  I don't think you read that part correctly, especially given that you quoted the "myth" part, as in the total misconception that I'm trying to straighten out.
   
  Since you already have a DAC, if it takes S/PDIF input, then you can just get a cheap sound card for the gaming DSP features (which do, indeed, pass through S/PDIF) and let the DAC give you a cleaner analog signal. Does that make sense?
   
  (Unless you're using the laptop for gaming too, in which case internal sound cards aren't an option, and I don't know how well cheap USB devices like the Xonar U3 work in practice.)


----------



## Kasterolle

Quote: 





phos said:


> What card are you using?  You can usually get sound cards to output premixed virtual surround/HRTF (which uses 2 channels) over S/PDIF.


 
  Well i use a laptop (acer aspire 7730g), do not know much about the name or version but, the specs says i should have 5.1 and : "Dolby Digital Live, Dolby Pro Logic IIx, High Definition Audio, Dolby Home Theater"
   
   
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I don't think you read that part correctly, especially given that you quoted the "myth" part, as in the total misconception that I'm trying to straighten out.
> 
> Since you already have a DAC, if it takes S/PDIF input, then you can just get a cheap sound card for the gaming DSP features (which do, indeed, pass through S/PDIF) and let the DAC give you a cleaner analog signal. Does that make sense?
> 
> (Unless you're using the laptop for gaming too, in which case internal sound cards aren't an option, and I don't know how well cheap USB devices like the Xonar U3 work in practice.)


 
   
  Oh, wow. Well, good news atleast  Thought it was:
  - Statement
  - Frue / false
   
  It does make sense again, and my laptop has a 3.5mm optical S/PDIF output. So then I do not need a usb device.
   
  I'll make a desktop for fps games later and have an internal sound card there, though I would have to take the amp and headphones from one pc to the other each time I would like to play a game, wich would suck. So this means I will have to get another set for movies and just use the 880 for games.
   
  But, that I will  do another time, after I get money again... As for now, im just happy I can use this setup as I had planed. Just have to figure out what settings works best when converting the 5.1 digital to analog.
  I am still a scrub when it comes to this, but I have learned so flipping much on this site!


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Nameless, this is off-topic, but do you know of a way to get external audio (through say an analog source) into a desktop, so then I could listen through it through the computer?

For example:

PS Vita's headphone out > PC > NFB5 > Headphones

My NFB5 doesn't have analog inputs, so I was hoping for like an analog signal converted to digital, so I can then reconvert to analog for my headphones...

Yes, it's not ideal, but still... curious.

Maybe something as simple as a cable that can be fed to the mic input on my PC?

edit: Oh snap, got it working! Doesn't exactly sound great. XD


----------



## AxelCloris

MLE, you'd most likely get better sound coming from a capture card. The mic line-in isn't what I'd consider high quality on most machines.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Yeah, it has it's hiss, similar to the Mixamp 5.8. For the purpose of external device gaming (PS Vita, DS, etc), this will do just fine. My initial problem was that I maxed out the volume on the Vita, and it was distorting the music I was testing. Once I lowered the Vita to about half to 60% of it's volume, the distortions went away, still though, it's a far cry from real quality.

Ironically, the NFB5 needs less on the volume pot like this that when I run my real setup.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Since it's an analog signal especially, you know what they say: Garbage in, garbage out.
   
  Portable gaming devices aren't known for having the highest quality of headphone outputs either, unfortunately. Then again, I don't think they expect people to be connecting HE-400s and other high-end headphones to them.
   
  I was going to ask why you didn't just connect the sources to the NFB-5 itself, but then I looked it up and found that it only has digital inputs, meaning the headphone amp in it is only useful for digital sources over USB or S/PDIF. Figures. (No wonder I like discrete devices wherever possible.)


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Yeah, I didn't do my homework, and expected a product that costs about 4x as much as the E9 would have analog inputs because the E9 did. Sadly, was mistaken.

I could sell it off and get the C-2.2, but then I'd be missing a DAC, and would automatically want the NFB3 or NFB2 to have full ACSS connection (any non Audio-GD amp would need to go through the op-amps, which AFAIK is inferior than ACSS. That right there would cost more than double what I paid for the NFB5, so I'll live without the analog inputs, and probably get another amp down the line for those purposes (still waiting on the ODA).


----------



## AxelCloris

This may be total crap, or not work how I'm hoping, but what about something like this?
http://www.amazon.com/3-5MM-TO-TOSLINK-FIBER-OPTIC-CABLE-TOSLINK-mini-Toslink/dp/B00006LVF3


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

How are you hoping that would work?


----------



## AxelCloris

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> How are you hoping that would work?


 
   
  3.5 out on the PSP to the Optical on your NFB5. The issue I have in my head thinking about it logically is that to do that you'd probably need some kind of power source for any conversion from analog to optical.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Correct me if I'm wrong but that 3.5mm side is a mini-toslink input (digital). You can't plug that into the Vita. :confused_face:

http://www.amazon.com/Menotek-Analog-Audio-Digital-Converter/dp/B0045UWXB0/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1343709012&sr=8-3&keywords=analog+to+digital

This would work, but for that price, I may as well just save up for a legit portable amp.


----------



## seanmcloughlin7

Ok so with my new headphones I'm trying to figure out the best way to set them up for the most immersive sounding experience so I would like some help. What should I set my control panel sound to? just stereo?
  Also what should be my settings in my Xonar DX audio centre? here is a pic for reference and what I'm currently using


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





seanmcloughlin7 said:


> Ok so with my new headphones I'm trying to figure out the best way to set them up for the most immersive sounding experience so I would like some help. What should I set my control panel sound to? just stereo?
> Also what should be my settings in my Xonar DX audio centre? here is a pic for reference and what I'm currently using


 
  Turn GX off, otherwise looks good.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

He could also change the DH mode to DH-2, which is what use console gamers are used to.


----------



## seanmcloughlin7

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> He could also change the DH mode to DH-2, which is what use console gamers are used to.


 
  Naw I have the DH mode right for my ears, that much I know  everything else sounds too empty and too much reverb. I like a more muted or dampened sound. Seems to sound more natural.
  What does GX do exactly?


----------



## Phos

You might find it beneficial to switch to 7.1 (8 channels).  Most games can do that.


----------



## seanmcloughlin7

Quote: 





phos said:


> You might find it beneficial to switch to 7.1 (8 channels).  Most games can do that.


 
  When I change the settings like that in the sound card panel should I also be changing to 5.1/7.1 in the main computer control panel too under sound settings?


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





seanmcloughlin7 said:


> When I change the settings like that in the sound card panel should I also be changing to 5.1/7.1 in the main computer control panel too under sound settings?


 
  Most likely yes.


----------



## seanmcloughlin7

Quote: 





phos said:


> Most likely yes.


 
  Just realised when I change the "Audio channels" setting to 8 or 6 it changes the computer control panel too so that's handy


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> I didn't think Aleph One used OpenAL, but I admit that I haven't looked too hard into it or Marathon in general.
> 
> The X-Fi Titanium HD is just what I currently use; I also have an Auzentech X-Fi Prelude in an older computer, and once had an Auzentech X-Fi Forte (then traded that for the Titanium HD because the other guy needed analog surround outputs and I didn't). Those are generally the more expensive, higher-quality cards.
> 
> ...




Though the graphics and gameplay mechanics are dated, Marathon Infinity holds up well IMO due to the creative writing in the text terminals and interesting non-linear level progression. iPad versions were just ported for free and rekindled my interest, though obviously the PC versions (Mac & Windows) obviously control better with keyboard and mouse. I was suprised how some of the level designs still impress me despite the tech limitations. The sound ambiance of Marathon isn't very complex even if it does have OpenAL to be honest, I think even the height perspectives were faked by trapezoid distortions of the flat sprite images. I keep telling myself to play with Forge and Anvil, but it's so dated now that I ought to learn to use creation kits from newer games to add to a portfolio. Your VR headsets sound amazing, I didn't actually believe there were commercially mass-produced head-tracking VR systems... Would one be able to still use his or her own headphones with any of them? I feel like that era has gone past, too many movies like the matrix & videogame immersion backlash.

Also about the sound cards, my Gigabyte GA-Z68A-D3H-B3 motherboard has two each of PCI express 2.0, PCI express, and PCI still open. I'll have to look at your eBay options...
Would this one meet criteria? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Creative-Sound-Blaster-X-Fi-Xtreme-Gamer-Fidelity-PCI-Sound-Card-SB073A-/221004720898?pt=US_Sound_Cards_Internal_&hash=item3374e86b02

I copied your driver link to my "reading list" bookmarks.

Any particular reason for Creative vs Asus? Is the Creative more universal? I wasn't thinking of getting a pc soundcard (gee, hope it works with the Mac side of my computer), but the $35 actually might be within whim budget for the month.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





seanmcloughlin7 said:


> Naw I have the DH mode right for my ears, that much I know  everything else sounds too empty and too much reverb. I like a more muted or dampened sound. Seems to sound more natural.
> What does GX do exactly?


 
  GX is Asus's "version" of Creative EAX 5.0,
  GX get's mixed reviews.


----------



## Evshrug

Oh, and another thing, does one new to windows require Windows 7 Pro for XP Emulation or going whole-hog with an XP virtual machine to get the most out of the PC gaming library? I ask because I only have the Win 8 consumer preview, cuz I so far only dally in PC gaming, but I may get around to an OEM copy of Win 7 pro one of these days XD

Eidos' thief collection pack is real cheap on amazon, so is the new Deus Ex for pc


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> GX is Asus's "version" of Creative EAX 5.0,
> GX get's mixed reviews.


 
   
  A crude emulation, from what I've heard, though it also apparently doubles as a DirectSound3D-to-OpenAL wrapper like ALchemy. What it actually does in practice is something I won't be able to figure out until someone lends me a Xonar card.
   
  Since EAX 3/4/5 were never licensed out or made part of DS3D like the first two versions, the only sure bet I know of to have those versions actually work properly is to get actual Creative hardware.
   


evshrug said:


> Oh, and another thing, does one new to windows require Windows 7 Pro for XP Emulation or going whole-hog with an XP virtual machine to get the most out of the PC gaming library? I ask because I only have the Win 8 consumer preview, cuz I so far only dally in PC gaming, but I may get around to an OEM copy of Win 7 pro one of these days XD
> Eidos' thief collection pack is real cheap on amazon, so is the new Deus Ex for pc


   

  Windows 7 Professional includes an "XP Mode" license, which Home Premium doesn't include. That's not to say that you can't run an XP virtual machine in Win7 Home Premium, but you'll have to supply the XP license yourself.
   
  Not that virtual machines work out very well for gaming anyway, at least not in my experience. Win98SE is poorly supported, Direct3D7 and older versions have issues under VMs, and just forget about DirectSound3D support (read: no EAX, no A3D, no 3D sound whatsoever). It's a shame the VM developers don't have their priorities straight when it comes to getting games working in them, and for that, I'll still need to keep two other gaming desktops around (one for XP, one for 98SE).
   
  Fortunately, you can get all the Thief games running nicely in Win7 64-bit, even the first two. It'll take a bit of work (patching with DDfix, Tafferpatcher for Thief 2, and so on), but it's doable, and the cutscenes will still work despite using some strange Indeo codec (as long as you run them in administrator mode).


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> Windows 7 Professional includes an "XP Mode" license, which Home Premium doesn't include. That's not to say that you can't run an XP virtual machine in Win7 Home Premium, but you'll have to supply the XP license yourself.
> 
> Not that virtual machines work out very well for gaming anyway, at least not in my experience. Win98SE is poorly supported, Direct3D7 and older versions have issues under VMs, and just forget about DirectSound3D support (read: no EAX, no A3D, no 3D sound whatsoever). It's a shame the VM developers don't have their priorities straight when it comes to getting games working in them, and for that, I'll still need to keep two other gaming desktops around (one for XP, one for 98SE).
> 
> Fortunately, you can get all the Thief games running nicely in Win7 64-bit, even the first two. It'll take a bit of work (patching with DDfix, Tafferpatcher for Thief 2, and so on), but it's doable, and the cutscenes will still work despite using some strange Indeo codec (as long as you run them in administrator mode).



Ok, so since I don't have a spare legal copy of XP (and have never been "into" pirating software), would I be better off buying a copy of XP for the gaming side of my PC, or Win 7 pro? Am I understanding you correctly that "XP Mode" is a VM after all, in which case I would hardly see a difference between using a modern version of Windows and just running the latest version of Parallels on my Mac OS side of my computer? These things haven't been particularly clear from MS literature (of course they don't want consumers thinking only as many programs run natively on their latest efforts as on OS X, seeing as how gamers and small-time custom work programs are the main advantages Windows has had over OS X during the XP years...).

Eh, sorry about the MS rant. Many feel just as frustrated or intimidated by OS X or Linux, I'm sure. It's just that I'm not clear on how backwards compatible Win7 is, the difference Pro makes in a clean install vs Home, and how many versions of $100+ software I'd need to be both forward and backwards compatible so I can enjoy the Seminal PC games I can't experience (at all or as completely) on the Xbox 360.

So with the first windows PC that I have personally owned and intend to equip for mid-core gaming, I would need: Win 7 pro, CSB X-Fi soundcard instead of external solution (better 3D than Dolby Headphone from, say, Asus Xonar U3 USB dongle), a bunch of sound drivers/patches from 3rd parties (thanks for finding the link!!!), and a bunch of 3rd party patches for games released before Win 7 (since plenty didn't bother supporting Vista). It does feel like a bit of work for the few PC exclusive experiences I feel like I've missed from consoles, but then I do like to expand my horizons and tinker with non-critical systems from time to time. So unless you think I don't need Pro to get up and running for gaming, I will probably sludge my way through the installation process this week.

Was that eBay link to a decent card?


----------



## Evshrug

So amazon has refurb X-Fi Titanium PCI-e cards for sale @$50 (free shipping), but I read that since enabling the soundcard requires disabling the on board sound in BIOS, I don't think I'll make the jump. I mostly use the computer while running OS X for work and general operation, and three or four games on PC aren't worth it to me to have to change BIOS settings every time I switch between Mac and Windows. Maybe Mac will get more upgrade friendly now that Steve Jobs has passed away, but right now I have to stick with the on board Realtek sound.

Update: Perhaps a USB option would provide the necessary flexibility? Besides avoiding internal EMI issues, it seems the Creative Soundblaster X-Fi Go! specifically mentions that it supports EAX 5.0, OpenAL, and ALchemy in the description. If it truly needs just to be plugged in for Windows to pass sound processing over, then this may be a viable solution...
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0044DEDC0


----------



## NamelessPFG

By no means are you required to disable the integrated sound codec or any other audio device with these sound cards, but it's generally advised to free up system resources and just simplify things. I could use my X-Fi cards with the Realtek codec on my mobo enabled if I wanted to, but since I don't use the Realtek codec at all, I just disable it.
   
  On the other hand, I didn't even know you were primarily using Mac OS X until now (Hackintoshed, from the sound of it). Since I don't think there are any X-Fi drivers for OS X, it wouldn't be very usable in that environment.
   
  I'm skeptical about the X-Fi Go! Pro since while it does claim to have those features, they're done entirely in software since no USB "X-Fi" device has the DSP that defines the internal sound cards. Maybe I should pick one up to review some day.
   
  ...Actually, now that I think about it, if you had to use a USB device, there's the Recon3D USB, which does claim to have OS X drivers. I can't speak for its DS3D/OAL capabilities, but it might be a cut above the USB X-Fi products, while still not being as good as the internal X-Fi cards due to lack of hardware acceleration.


----------



## Evshrug

Hackintoshed? ME? Well... yeah. And I just tried to update Lion to it's latest and lost sound anyway :/
I'll have more time to fiddle with that tomorrow, but I'll look in to the Recon3D. At first glance it looks like a more versatile Mixamp, hmmmm...

Up till now I've always had my mostly gameless computer, and my consoles. I kept 'em separate because I'm... Distractable. But like anyone else of our generation I'm pretty familiar with XP and mostly understand what's going on in Win7 and 8, I just never chose the windows platform for myself. Now, I'm dabbling in Windows gaming, to see what I've missed out on.

Thanks again for the suggestions!


----------



## PurpleAngel

It's not audio, but it is gaming related.
   
 Valve: OpenGL is faster than DirectX — even on Windows  http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/133824-valve-opengl-is-faster-than-directx-even-on-windows


----------



## Evshrug

Wish more games were OpenGL.
Side note I was going to fix my sound today, but then I played Starcraft arcade instead.


----------



## Evshrug

Sorry to come back with this, but Creative's Recon3D specs describe a device that could well serve all my needs, but amazon reviews aren't really enthusiastic. So... Any comments about the recon3D's performance, or point me to a trusted review of it? Or has anyone else in this thread have experience with it?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Sorry to come back with this, but Creative's Recon3D specs describe a device that could well serve all my needs, but amazon reviews aren't really enthusiastic. So... Any comments about the recon3D's performance, or point me to a trusted review of it? Or has anyone else in this thread have experience with it?


 
  I have zero experience with the Recon3D, but for $70 it seems a good value.


----------



## Evshrug

Yes, it seems to be a competent replacement for my PC sound and the Astro Mixamp in one swoop. However, where do you see the USB version selling for $70? Cheapest I saw was $94 shipped from B&H photo, the google shopping price for Newegg was quoting the wrong price.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Yes, it seems to be a competent replacement for my PC sound and the Astro Mixamp in one swoop. However, where do you see the USB version selling for $70? Cheapest I saw was $94 shipped from B&H photo, the google shopping price for Newegg was quoting the wrong price.


 
  USB version($100)?
  I was talking about the internal sound card Recon3D ($70)
   
  Does your motherboard's built in audio come with optical output with DDL (Dolby Digital live)?
  With DDL, you can plug your Astro Mix-Amp. into the motherboard's optical output and have Dolby Headphone surround sound.


----------



## Evshrug

My MoBo does have optical out, but right now the Mac OS X side hasn't been able to find an audio device since I updated Lion. That is because it's a hackintosh, and my attempts to reinstall the driver frameworks have been unsuccessful so far. It has been recommended I do a clean re-install of the whole OS, which I haven't felt like attempting yet.

The other thing is that I don't have a Mixamp. I was thinking about getting this instead since the Yamaha Silent Cinema in my receiver gave me virtual surround pretty well for my Xbox, but my computer's built-in sound is just meh (and not working when I boot Mac right now). I could also use this Recon3D for those times when I want to game on XBox 360 away from the living room.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> My MoBo does have optical out, but right now the Mac OS X side hasn't been able to find an audio device since I updated Lion. That is because it's a hackintosh, and my attempts to reinstall the driver frameworks have been unsuccessful so far. It has been recommended I do a clean re-install of the whole OS, which I haven't felt like attempting yet.
> The other thing is that I don't have a Mixamp. I was thinking about getting this instead since the Yamaha Silent Cinema in my receiver gave me virtual surround pretty well for my Xbox, but my computer's built-in sound is just meh (and not working when I boot Mac right now). I could also use this Recon3D for those times when I want to game on XBox 360 away from the living room.


 
  Do fresh install of the Mac OS.
  Do you have a MAC and separate PC computer or is this a single computer with dual Win/MAC OS dual boot?
   
  Cheaper just to get everything to work with the Yamaha Silent Cinema.


----------



## Evshrug

Dual-boot. I would have to have my work computer in the living room with all my entertainment stuff if I want both PC tower & Xbox hooked up to the receiver, which has its pros and cons, but in any case it is not going to be an option till my living circumstances change... You didn't know this, but the other factor is until I can afford a monthly rent over the $250 I pay now to live with my mom, I'm not "allowed" to unpack my "junk" accumulated from my apartment life as a college senior.
Any day my circumstance might change, and everyday (almost) I work for change, but... well, going from part-time to full time and independence once again will be great! Meanwhile I think I might buy one of these if I can catch a deal, have something enjoyable for now and useful still later. Maybe I can get an eBay deal and/or coupon.


----------



## untouchablemike

Hi, I was recommended here by Mad Lust Envy on his main gaming audio thread.  I was wondering what sound card everyone here would recommend for a basic Dolby Headphone setup.  My cans of choice are Denon D-2000 and I already own a FiiO e17.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





untouchablemike said:


> Hi, I was recommended here by Mad Lust Envy on his main gaming audio thread.  I was wondering what sound card everyone here would recommend for a basic Dolby Headphone setup.  My cans of choice are Denon D-2000 and I already own a FiiO e17.


 
  You can get a used Xonar DX or D1 for around $50, just run a male mini-jack to male mini-jack cable from the line-out/headphone jack of the Xonar to the line-in on the E17.


----------



## Evshrug

purpleangel said:


> You can get a used Xonar DX or D1 for around $50, just run a male mini-jack to male mini-jack cable from the line-out/headphone jack of the Xonar to the line-in on the E17.



From my research, and you're on a Windows PC, 2x what PurpleAngel said. Creative offers a better performance in gaming at a higher price, but the difference is diminishing and apparently people complain about driver updates being slow to release and independent efforts at patching were shut down (Daniel K). *Edit:* one review I read stated it used to be that Gamers would go for Creative while Audiophiles would get an Asus card, but Asus blurred that line when they reverse engineered Creative's advancements to EAX tech. The DX also measured better than Creative's ExtremeGamer card (which is not the model Nameless is talking about). Source: http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2008/05/26/asus-xonar-dx-pci-express-soundcard/5

So yeah, Asus Xonar DX is probably the best value for PC gaming and a great performer.


----------



## NamelessPFG

At $50, I'd be a bit more inclined to recommend the X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) if available at that price (even used/refurbished), but if and only if you put as much priority on DirectSound3D and OpenAL support as I do.
   
  Otherwise, the price premium (usually around $70-80) for any of the X-Fi cards below the Titanium HD's caliber just isn't worth it when you're not making use of the X-Fi DSP.


----------



## Evshrug

Refurb X-Fi Titanium from trusted seller:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102043
I recently saw a refurb Xonar DX, but I guess it got sold and you might have to look if you wanna buy a used/refurb sample. Here is a good price on a new Asus Xonar DX:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132006


----------



## giantmeatwad

I want to play with Dolby Headphone vitural surround and I am tempted to get an Essence STX and an amp(M-stage or Objective2) for my K701. But then I heard that the Essence STX can not output any Dolby Headphone virtual surround through the RCA outputs and it can output Dolby Headphone surround sound through the S/PDIF output. Is there a way to output Dolby Headphone to the amp(M-stage or Objective2) then to my K701?
   
  Thanks for any and all help.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





giantmeatwad said:


> I want to play with Dolby Headphone vitural surround and I am tempted to get an Essence STX and an amp(M-stage or Objective2) for my K701. But then I heard that the Essence STX can not output any Dolby Headphone virtual surround through the RCA outputs and it can output Dolby Headphone surround sound through the S/PDIF output. Is there a way to output Dolby Headphone to the amp(M-stage or Objective2) then to my K701?


 
   
  Get one of the Xonar D1, DX, D2, or D2X if you need Dolby Headphone and no built-in headphone amplifier. These cards have only line outputs.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





giantmeatwad said:


> I want to play with Dolby Headphone vitural surround and I am tempted to get an Essence STX and an amp(M-stage or Objective2) for my K701. But then I heard that the Essence STX can not output any Dolby Headphone virtual surround through the RCA outputs and it can output Dolby Headphone surround sound through the S/PDIF output. Is there a way to output Dolby Headphone to the amp(M-stage or Objective2) then to my K701?
> 
> Thanks for any and all help.


 
  Asus Xonar DX or D1 sound card (used $50).
  Just connect your amplifier to the line-out (headphone out) 3.5mm jack.
  You will then have Dolby Headphone surround sound.


----------



## giantmeatwad

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Asus Xonar DX or D1 sound card (used $50).
> Just connect your amplifier to the line-out (headphone out) 3.5mm jack.
> You will then have Dolby Headphone surround sound.


 
   
  Is the chipset in Xonar DX/D1 as good as the one in Essence STX?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





giantmeatwad said:


> Is the chipset in Xonar DX/D1 as good as the one in Essence STX?


 
  They use the same audio processor, C-Media HD Oxygen CMI8788.
  The Xonar DX/D1 are just like the Essence STX, except the DX/D1 not come with a headphone amplifier, replaceable op-amps, and coaxial output).


----------



## giantmeatwad

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> They use the same audio processor, C-Media HD Oxygen CMI8788.
> The Xonar DX/D1 are just like the Essence STX, except the DX/D1 not come with a headphone amplifier, replaceable op-amps, and coaxial output).


 

 Thanks for the help! I'm going to get a Xonar DX.


----------



## Evshrug

purpleangel said:


> I have zero experience with the Recon3D, but for $70 it seems a good value.




Guess what. The USB version is on sale for $70 today. Reading the reviews, it seems like most of the negative comments were from people who couldn't figure out how to use it.

I'm sorely tempted to pick it up so I won't have to reinstall OS X fresh every time there is an update, just to keep sound, and the Recon3D works with so many devices while being a lot cheaper than a Mixamp. I am able to pay my bills just fine, but I worry that I'd be better off just leaving the $70 in savings :/
Any reasoning for buying or saving?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Guess what. The USB version is on sale for $70 today.


 
   
  Are you serious? Holy crap, you're not kidding. Good until the 26th, too.
   
  I may end up ordering it for review purposes.


----------



## Tane

Noobie question. I am completely lost when it comes to audio. I just ditched my Astro A40s and mixamp to my brother and bought a pair of Q701. Now I am planning to buy a sound card maybe the xonar stx? Not sure where to start with them is there a cheaper option? Also will it be enough to drive the Q701s or will I need an external dac amp? I want to play around with Dolby Headphone virtual surround, should I get the mixamp back from my brother? This is mainly going to be used for all gaming and light music. Thanks for the help.


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> Are you serious? Holy crap, you're not kidding.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup, for serious. I had been looking at it in that ruminating, obsessive way, so I saw the sale. Took me 24 hours to decide to pull the trigger, but I think it will be well worth it for my devices.

Not sure why J&R cites a $40 *instant* rebate as the cause for the sale price because they were selling it at $90-$100 before, but still the sale is nice. Wish I could compare with a Mixamp, but the Recon3D will be more functional with my Mac than the Mixamp would be anyway. For $60 cheaper.



tane said:


> Noobie question. I am completely lost when it comes to audio. I just ditched my Astro A40s and mixamp to my brother and bought a pair of Q701. Now I am planning to buy a sound card maybe the xonar stx? Not sure where to start with them is there a cheaper option? Also will it be enough to drive the Q701s or will I need an external dac amp? I want to play around with Dolby Headphone virtual surround, should I get the mixamp back from my brother? This is mainly going to be used for all gaming and light music. Thanks for the help.





Well, there were some suggestions just *one* page back with links to good prices, and an overview of sound card lines on the first post. I assume you're playing on a windows computer? Nameless knows best, might recommend specific models for you, but I'd say look at Creative's Sound Blaster lineup and Asus' Xonar line, compare feature offerings, and your price bracket will be defined by the features you decide you don't need.
Make sure you take a hard look to see if the card offers hardware processing rather than software, as this benefits your system resources and fidelity, and makes for the biggest difference between built-in motherboard audio (usually) and actually having a dedicated piece of hardware.


----------



## Tane

Yeah this is a windows PC. Thanks for the suggestion I am going to start reading up right now.
   
  So if I ordered something like the Asus Xonar DX 7.1 and plugged my mixamp into it then headphones into my amp it would work correct? I would be able to get Dolby Headphone virtual surround?


----------



## NamelessPFG

The Xonar cards are capable of Dolby Headphone by themselves. You don't need the Mixamp, which is geared more toward console gaming.


----------



## Dcmorris

So I just purchased some AD700s to replace my Razer Carcharias and I like the sound so far, but I had a couple questions that hopefully some more experienced users could answer.
   
  So I mainly play video games with my headphones (Specifically Counterstrike: GO right now), and decided on the AD700s because of its alleged sound stage. My question though is what settings are best to set my system to? I have looked around a couple different places saying different things and I have tried a bunch of different combinations and I'm not sure which one works best and allows for the full use of the sound stage.
   
  I have a Sound Blaster X-Fi Fatal1ty Professional Sound Card (Similar to this) As of this moment, I have headphones selected in my creative control panel. Should that be set to headphones? Also, what should my windows speakers configuration be set to? I tried 5.1 but it sounded a bit odd in counterstrike, which brings a third element to the picture. CS:GO has an option of headphones, 2 speakers, 4 speakers, and 5.1 surround. Should I set that to 5.1 if my windows configuration is set to 5.1? Or is it best just to leave everything at stereo? I just didn't know if I would get less of the effect of the sound stage if I used conflicting speaker settings.
   
  Sorry for my noobness and questions, I just feel like I'm not getting the full effect of the headphones. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks guys.


----------



## Tane

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> The Xonar cards are capable of Dolby Headphone by themselves. You don't need the Mixamp, which is geared more toward console gaming.


 
  Awesome thanks for the info. The Mixamp I am assuming basically mimics the virtual surround sound for console games? Would there be any benefit of me getting the Xonar STX over the Xonar DX?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





tane said:


> Awesome thanks for the info. The Mixamp I am assuming basically mimics the virtual surround sound for console games? Would there be any benefit of me getting the Xonar STX over the Xonar DX?


 
   
  The Mixamp just decodes Dolby Digital (or analog Dolby Pro Logic II) and outputs Dolby Headphone. Sound cards in general offer more features for PC gaming and higher sound quality at lower cost.
   
  The Xonar Essence STX mainly gives you a FiiO E9-class amplifier (they use the same amp IC) built-in over the cheaper cards, along with a bit more sound quality. It should be up to the task of driving your Q701.
   
  Quote: 





dcmorris said:


> So I just purchased some AD700s to replace my Razer Carcharias and I like the sound so far, but I had a couple questions that hopefully some more experienced users could answer.
> 
> So I mainly play video games with my headphones (Specifically Counterstrike: GO right now), and decided on the AD700s because of its alleged sound stage. My question though is what settings are best to set my system to? I have looked around a couple different places saying different things and I have tried a bunch of different combinations and I'm not sure which one works best and allows for the full use of the sound stage.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I don't have CS:GO specifically, but you could try setting "snd_legacy_surround 1" in the console after you point ALchemy toward the CS:GO install directory. That usually works well for Source engine games.
   
  Both Windows and the in-game setting should be set to 5.1 or 7.1 if you want CMSS-3D Headphone to work properly with software-mixed sources. CS:GO and other Source engine games are software-mixed until you set the console variable above, which switches it into DirectSound3D mode (which is why you need ALchemy for it to work properly).
   
  I don't trust stereo software mixing in games because it's usually one-dimensional left/right panning only. Valve claims CS:GO has improved audio mixing by default, even for headphones, but I still question its effectiveness over CMSS-3D Headphone provided with DirectSound3D or OpenAL positional audio data.


----------



## Dcmorris

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I don't have CS:GO specifically, but you could try setting "snd_legacy_surround 1" in the console after you point ALchemy toward the CS:GO install directory. That usually works well for Source engine games.
> 
> Both Windows and the in-game setting should be set to 5.1 or 7.1 if you want CMSS-3D Headphone to work properly with software-mixed sources. CS:GO and other Source engine games are software-mixed until you set the console variable above, which switches it into DirectSound3D mode (which is why you need ALchemy for it to work properly).
> 
> I don't trust stereo software mixing in games because it's usually one-dimensional left/right panning only. Valve claims CS:GO has improved audio mixing by default, even for headphones, but I still question its effectiveness over CMSS-3D Headphone provided with DirectSound3D or OpenAL positional audio data.


 
   
  Cool thanks for the help. I tried it out and can hear a difference already. What do the buffers/duration options do exactly? I noticed I had to play with them a bit to get it to sound right.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





dcmorris said:


> Cool thanks for the help. I tried it out and can hear a difference already. What do the buffers/duration options do exactly? I noticed I had to play with them a bit to get it to sound right.


 
   
  I don't quite remember, but I do know that if you get audio crackling, distortion, or drop-outs, it generally helps to lower the Duration in increments of 5. I generally haven't needed to change the Buffers setting, though.
   
Going by the official ALchemy guide, it seems that if you need to set the Duration really low for things to sound right, but that ends up causing other problems, you might have to add more Buffers to compensate.
   
  Quote: 





> *'Buffers'* is used to set the number of audio buffers used internally. The default value of 4 should be fine for most applications.
> 
> *'Duration'* is used to set the length in milliseconds of each of the audio buffers. The default value is 25ms.
> The total duration of the audio queue used internally is equal to Buffers * Duration (i.e. 00ms by default). Experimenting with Duration values may be necessary in order to find the best performance vs. quality trade-off for each game. In addition, some games require smaller values than the default of 25ms because they use very small DirectSound Buffers for streaming, or they require faster playback position updates. Reducing the ?Duration? value can prevent audio glitches, pops and clicks.
> ...


----------



## Tane

So how do I tell if a sound card has a built in amp or not? I was looking at going a cheaper route and picking up http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102043 instead of the Xonar STX if that card I linked can drive a pair of q701. Or would this be a bad idea?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





tane said:


> So how do I tell if a sound card has a built in amp or not? I was looking at going a cheaper route and picking up http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102043 instead of the Xonar STX if that card I linked can drive a pair of q701. Or would this be a bad idea?


 
   
  Technically, every sound card with analog outputs is amplified. It's whether the nature of the amp circuitry is suitable to your headphones or not that's the question.
   
  If you care about having the best DirectSound3D and OpenAL game support, then picking up the X-Fi Titanium and a FiiO E9 or similar amp (since it doesn't have a "proper" amp circuit for the Q701) would actually leave you better off than the Xonar Essence STX.
   
  Should the stock analog output quality not be good enough for you, there's always the option to use S/PDIF output to an external DAC.


----------



## madmalkav

Hi people, I need some help.
   
  I use on my PC my Beyer DT770 with a clip microphone for gaming. My girlfriend uses a Sennheiser PC31 headset. The problem is, when both of us are playing at the same time, her mic register her keyboard, me talking or my keyboard almost constantly. I have played with the settings of the mic device and Mumble -the voice chat software we use- as much as I can but I couldn't solve the issue. So we are considering buying some new hardware for her. Is there any headset you would recommend for this situation or we will be better going with the headphones + clip mic route?


----------



## Alec246

How do I know about which sound engine newer games are using? Like, I bought Sleeping Dogs, and I would like to know if I would benefit from using my Headphone with CMSS-3D, THX StudioPro or something like that, or it would just add useless reverb, then I'd rather use it with normal Stereo


----------



## Evshrug

alec246 said:


> How do I know about which sound engine newer games are using? Like, I bought Sleeping Dogs, and I would like to know if I would benefit from using my Headphone with CMSS-3D, THX StudioPro or something like that, or it would just add useless reverb, then I'd rather use it with normal Stereo




Alec246,
This is a good question, I'm also interested if there's an easier way than google, since I've only just started to look beyond the limited but hassle-free (almost) world of console gaming.

Edit: here are a list of games from what I gather is the official OpenAL site that use OpenAL code, but it looks like it hasn't been updated since 2008: http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/OpenAL%20Wiki/Games.aspx
Otherwise, I think any game with 5.1 or 7.1 surround audio gets translated by CMSS-3D headphone.

Madmalkav,
Why not try it in two phases, getting an external mic like the one that worked for you and using it with her existing headset, and only moving on to another headphone if needed after that? Seems to be the cheapest, most practical route to me.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





alec246 said:


> How do I know about which sound engine newer games are using? Like, I bought Sleeping Dogs, and I would like to know if I would benefit from using my Headphone with CMSS-3D, THX StudioPro or something like that, or it would just add useless reverb, then I'd rather use it with normal Stereo


 
   
  The easiest way to tell is to check if the game directory has an OpenAL32.dll or Mss32.dll in it, though their absence isn't always a perfect indicator of what API or middleware a given game uses.
   
  However, just because it doesn't use DS3D or OAL doesn't make CMSS-3D Headphone or whatever its THX TruStudio Pro equivalent is called totally useless, either. It's just dragged down to the same level of virtual 5.1/7.1 that Dolby Headphone and other technologies can do.


----------



## Alec246

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> The easiest way to tell is to check if the game directory has an OpenAL32.dll or Mss32.dll in it, though their absence isn't always a perfect indicator of what API or middleware a given game uses.
> 
> However, just because it doesn't use DS3D or OAL doesn't make CMSS-3D Headphone or whatever its THX TruStudio Pro equivalent is called totally useless, either. It's just dragged down to the same level of virtual 5.1/7.1 that Dolby Headphone and other technologies can do.


 

 Thank you!
   
  I know that it won't be useless, but without full use of the technology I prefer to use stereo quality with no sound degratation. It's a pity console gaming has destroyed the sound industries for games... Wow I remember the Audigy 7.1 Huge Box, offering EAX, and listening to those sound samples, man it was so cool...


----------



## Fegefeuer

http://www.creative.com/corporate/pressroom/releases/welcome.asp?pid=13285
   
   
[size=1.4em]CREATIVE INTRODUCES THE SOUND BLASTER Z-SERIES - A NEW RANGE OF ULTRA HIGH-PERFORMANCE SOUND CARDS DESIGNED FOR FUTURE GAMING AND ENTERTAINMENT AUDIO​[/size] [size=1.1em]_Sneak Preview This Week at Gamescom 2012_​[/size] 
 *SINGAPORE **– 15 August 2012* – Creative Technology Ltd today announced its new ultra high-performance Z-Series of Sound Blaster®PCI-Express sound cards, elevating the standards of technology and performance for the future of gaming and entertainment on the PC.  Creative will preview the new Sound Blaster ZxR, Sound Blaster Zx and Sound Blaster Z at Gamescom in Cologne, Germany from 15-19 August 2012.

 [size=1em] 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






 [size=1em] *Sound Blaster ZxR*[/size]
 [size=1em] 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/size]
 [size=1em] *Sound Blaster Zx*[/size]
 [size=1em] 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/size]
 [size=1em] *Sound Blaster Z*[/size]

[/size]  “The audio landscape for gaming and entertainment on the PC has changed.  As content creation and consumption evolves with the interactivity of the Internet, our vision is to enable the best listening experiences for music, video and games, and to transcend the basic concept of sound quality as a specification with enabling technologies that allow users to completely customise their PC audio,” said Low Long Chye, Director of Product Marketing for Audio.  “For audio playback, we use studio-grade components to deliver outstanding fidelity, and then greatly enhance the listening experience by implementing our SBX Pro Studio™ suite of audio technologies.  This enables complete customisation of audio playback, uniquely catered to suit individual tastes.  Our mixture of outstanding components and proprietary technologies also enables us to provide the highest quality recording experience for audio creation, which today expands beyond just music recording to include user interaction and creation with YouTube, eSports, and more.”
 “We also recognise how voice communications in massively multiplayer online (MMO) and multiplayer online battle arena (MOBA) games are so crucial to winning, and how clear communications in VoIP applications such as Skype are so important to having meaningful conversations.  This is where our CrystalVoice™ technologies enable users to experience the best possible sound quality – the level of quality that is exclusively available with Sound Blaster.  To complete the overall communication experience, all our sound cards comes standard with a high-quality dual microphone array,” added Low Long Chye.
 *Each New Sound Card Offers a Complete Audio System*
 To dynamically power compelling audio playback, the new sound cards leverage the Creative Sound Core3D quad-core sound and voice processor, which is designed to work in perfect harmony with Creative’s SBX Pro Studio technology and high-quality components to deliver a complete audio platform.  Sound Core3D also works seamlessly with CrystalVoice communications technologies and the high-quality beam-forming microphone array included with each of the new sound cards to deliver Acoustic Echo Cancellation, Voice Focus and 
 Noise Reduction for clear online voice communications.  This complete system for voice communications also enables gamers to use speakers and the high-quality microphone array to achieve a better overall experience.
 *Sound Blaster ZxR – The World’s Best Sounding Sound Card **(SRP US$249.99)*
 This flagship Sound Blaster ZxR is designed to provide the best gaming and entertainment audio performance in any sound cards.  It also delivers the ultimate audio playback and creation solution for the PC.  Studio-grade components, which include external digital-to-analog converters (DACs) that deliver 127dB signal-to-noise ratio (SNR), sockets for swappable Op-Amps, a high-end 80mW into 600 ohm headphone amplifier, and 192kHz pass through, are used to deliver phenomenal audio quality.

 The Sound Blaster ZxR has multiple connections including a proprietary connector to the DBpro, a daughter board that offers optical output for outstanding playback; and professional-grade 123dB analog-to-digital converters (ADCs) with RCA Aux-in and optical input for outstanding recording quality.
 Furthermore, a convenient external ACM (Audio Control Module) provides a built-in dual-microphone array and mic/headphone I/O connections.  Designed to complement the Sound Blaster ZxR, the ACM adds convenience, extra connectivity and control, plus it enhances the look of any desktop. 
 In addition to the impressive hardware capabilities, the proprietary SB Speaker-Calibration feature, DTS Connect and Dolby Digital Live, all these three ensure an ultra-realistic cinematic audio playback and gaming experience.  From the hardcore gamer fragging an opponent on a first person shooter to a die-hard MOBA or MMO player engaging with thousands of players online, gamers can get a competitive advantage from excellent audio quality and positional accuracy.
 In many of today’s most popular games, if gamers are not communicating, they are not winning.   For voice communications, Creative’s CrystalVoice technologies enable crystal-clear communications amongst gamers and their teammates.
 Creative’s audio engineers designed the SBX Pro Studio suite of audio playback technologies so gamers can improve their audio experience and calibrate their game audio so they can hear the subtle nuances that gives a competitive edge.  Immersive surround sound, the ability to clearly understand teammates and enhancements of specific sounds in a gaming environment are just a few elements of SBX Pro Studio that enhance gaming audio.
 *SBX Pro Studio Features:*

 SBX Crystalizer™ - Enhances sound for games, music and movies by restoring low and high end frequency curves lost to compression 
 *SBX Surround™* - *Delivers a 360 degree surround sound experience so gamers can hear sounds clearly from the front, back, above and below*
 SBX Smart Volume™ - Address the problem of abrupt volume level changes in music, movies and games by intelligently applying gain and attenuation to deliver consistent volume levels; includes Night Mode™  to reduce the impact of explosions and bursts of sound so as not to disturb others after hours
 SBX Dialog Plus™ - Enhances voices in games and movies for clearer dialog, allowing the listener to hear the dialog over the rest of sound track and over ambient noise
 SBX Bass™ - Fills in the missing low frequency tones and give the extra impact for a better entertainment experience
  Designed to deliver crystal clear vocal fidelity in multiplayer games, online chats and video conferencing, CrystalVoice technologies also enhance voice communications for VoIP solutions such as Skype.
 *CrystalVoice Features:*

 Acoustic Echo Cancellation - Eliminates echoes and enables whoever is speaking to listen to the other party clearly
 Noise Reduction - Enables the person speaking to be heard clearly over background noise by constantly monitoring the environment and eliminating unwanted noise that interferes with the conversation
 Smart Volume - Automatically adjusts the loudness of a voice to maintain a consistent volume level.  This makes it convenient for the speaker to converse normally, regardless of whether the speaker is close to or far away from the microphone
 Voice Focus - Beam-forming creates a zone and suppresses noise outside it to enable whoever is speaking to be heard with amazing clarity.  Multiple microphones are used to focus, enhance voice, and eliminate sounds outside the zone
 VoiceFX™ - Enables alteration of voice with a variety of effects, which can be used to enhance the tone of a voice, create interesting accents, or enable someone to sound like a completely different person
  *Sound Blaster Zx – High-Performance Gaming and Entertainment Audio (SRP US$149.99)*
 The Sound Blaster Zx incorporates all the hardware and software features of the Sound Blaster ZxR except for the DBpro daughter board.
 Clad in brilliant red EMI shielding and featuring glowing LED lighting, the Sound Blaster Zx is the bad boy of the bunch, with an attention-grabbing design that ideally complements any power gaming rig.  The Sound Blaster Zx leverages Sound Core3D processing with external DACs that deliver 120dB SNR. Other features include support for 192kHz direct pass-through to analog out, a 600 ohm headphone amplifier, gold-plated I/O connectivity, and SB Speaker-Calibration, which calibrates speakers to take advantage of room acoustics, resulting in an optimised audio performance.  The Sound Blaster Zx also includes the convenient external ACM (Audio Control Module) with a built-in dual microphone array and mic/headphone I/O connections.  To enhance digital entertainment capabilities, DTS Connect and Dolby Digital Live encoding are included.   The product also includes high-quality optical and stereo cables.
 *Sound Blaster Z – High-Performance Gaming and Entertainment Audio (SRP US$99.99)** *
 The Sound Blaster Z incorporates all the hardware and software features of the Sound Blaster Zx except for the ACM.  Instead, an external high quality dual-microphone array comes standard with this card.
 An ideal all-around gaming and entertainment solution, the Sound Blaster Z comes with 120dB SNR and supports 192kHz direct pass-through to analog out.  It also features glowing LED lighting, a 600 ohm headphone amplifier, an EMI-free analog input and output path, SB Speaker- Calibration and gold-plated I/O connections for pristine audio quality.
 *The Future of Audio for Gaming and Entertainment*
 Click http://www.soundblaster.com/technology/whitepapers/ and find out more about the future of audio for gaming and entertainment, and how Sound Blaster will be a major force with a new wave of applied technology.
 *Pricing and Availability*
 The Sound Blaster ZxR and Sound Blaster Zx will be available in December 2012 and the Sound Blaster Z will be available in October 2012 at the online store at creative.com/shop in Asia and authorised dealers in Asia at the following suggested retail prices:

 Sound Blaster ZxR US$249.99 Sound Blaster Zx US$149.99 Sound Blaster Z US$99.99
  Pricing and availability may vary according to region.
 For more information, visit soundblaster.com.


----------



## Evshrug

Looks interesting, if the driver support is there this may be a step forward. Now, hopefully the SBX Pro Studio effects are supported longer than the THX Studio Pro and more widely leveraged by game developers.

Shame the white paper isn't available at the time of this writing, demystifying Creative's future plans would help inspire more confidence... despite the continued possibility of those plans being dropped. I think there is a difference between keeping up with the latest audio tech developments, and breaking feature functionality.


----------



## Phos

Great friggen demo, you proved that binaural dummy head recordings work.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I have a sneaking suspicion that these "SBX Pro" effects are just rebranded "THX TruStudio Pro" effects, which are in turn likely rebranded X-Fi features (most notably the Crystalizer and bass boost, perhaps CMSS-3D Headphone too).
   
  Sure makes me wish Creative would just drop the buzzwords and keep their names for everything straight, but this frankly isn't anything new...it makes my quest for gaming audio knowledge a lot harder than it needs to be.


----------



## Evshrug

*sigh* They probably just stopped paying for the rights to use the THX brand name.
And that binaural demo is indeed lame. Sure, you can use a dummy to record real life audio for scripted events, but what about dynamic effects in-engine, in-game?


----------



## Evshrug

Anyway, their earnings report isn't encouraging. Basically, they have less net loss in this quarter this year than last because, despite a decrease in sales, Creative managed to trim their overhead. Now, if they had something on the table such as working with console developers to develop the sound systems in the next generation of consoles, they would have brighter prospects and assured income. To their credit, other PR statements indicate R&D for sound processors for Android devices, which may help a lot, but the end of the revenue report clearly states that they expect to continue operating at a loss in their "difficult and uncertain market."

I like all forms of videogames, but let's hope the market doesn't get dominated by smartphone shovelware.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion that these "SBX Pro" effects are just rebranded "THX TruStudio Pro" effects, which are in turn likely rebranded X-Fi features (most notably the Crystalizer and bass boost, perhaps CMSS-3D Headphone too).
> 
> Sure makes me wish Creative would just drop the buzzwords and keep their names for everything straight, but this frankly isn't anything new...it makes my quest for gaming audio knowledge a lot harder than it needs to be.


 
   
  No, a Creative guy actually mumbled something about calculation/processing of multiple audio streams (gaming) under Windows 8. Creative is actually quite serious with their new lineup. Windows 8 is superior to Windows 7 regarding audio and back on track with hardware acceleration. http://blog.cakewalk.com/windows-8-a-benchmark-for-music-production-applications/
   
  I will look deeper into it but SBX Surround is definitely not like Dolby Headphone or Thx TruStudio Pro.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> No, a Creative guy actually mumbled something about calculation/processing of multiple audio streams (gaming) under Windows 8. Creative is actually quite serious with their new lineup. Windows 8 is superior to Windows 7 regarding audio and back on track with hardware acceleration. http://blog.cakewalk.com/windows-8-a-benchmark-for-music-production-applications/
> 
> I will look deeper into it but SBX Surround is definitely not like Dolby Headphone or Thx TruStudio Pro.


 
   
  We'll see about that. I'm naturally skeptical of Creative's marketing habits, even if their hardware can sound pretty nice once you know what the various settings actually do. The problem is finding out what equates to what.
   
  As for Windows 8, there's a lot of back-end improvements under the hood, but I still don't think it's worth putting up with Metro for the time being. I'll give it some time for the third-party app developers to make the UI more palatable on KB+M. (More specifically, the charms menu and Metro app switcher. I HATE having to use hot corners to bring them up. What I would rather have is a global taskbar across both desktop and Metro interfaces with buttons for the various charms...)


----------



## Evshrug

Hey nameless, excited about getting the mail today? 
Me too! Especially since I never did find a way to restore my Mac's audio. If you know a good sound driver sweeper that would work for Mac it would really help me try again, or if my motherboard's S/PDIF out recognizes the external DAC in my Receiver in place of a built in audio device/soundcard, but it's nice that I'll now have an option and comparison to Silent Cinema. We'll see if I keep mine, but I'm highly interested what someone like you with more technical experience will get out of it.
Just another hour and a half...


----------



## Evshrug

Ah, my Recon3D isn't arriving today. They did that thing where UPS hands it off to the USPS (despite UPS deliving packages to our neighborhood), UPS tracking says it was delivered to the post office yesterday morning while USPS claims they're still waiting for it. Normally, I wouldn't care about a day's delay, even for a new toy, but my mom is determined to shut down our Internet in September, and I don't know how that'll affect my ability to make returns, worse make timely replies to job search contacts.
Sad face.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Sorry, but my Mac OS X knowledge is a bit limited. Just uninstalling drivers after they're installed leaves me confused a lot of the time, as there doesn't seem to be a dedicated uninstall control panel like in Windows (or Linux, through package managers). Instead, you have to hope that the driver installer leaves some sort of uninstall script somewhere.
   
  That, and the only Macs I ever owned were old PowerBook G3s, which the Recon3D USB wouldn't support anyway (Intel-only drivers).
   
  I wasn't expecting it to arrive today anyway; the estimated delivery date clearly says Wednesday. I am surprised that they'd hand it over to USPS when they could've delivered it themselves today, though. Perhaps that's what happens when you don't pay up for UPS Ground at the minimum.
   
  Also, that would suck if you lost your Internet connection. I don't know what I'd do without an Internet connection of my own...it's just too valuable of a resource to me.


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Hey nameless, excited about getting the mail today?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  You could try restoring the OS, maybe using the internet restore thing.  There doesn't seem to be a heck of a lot of recourse for macs when they go wrong short of apple stores.


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> Sorry, but my Mac OS X knowledge is a bit limited. Just uninstalling drivers after they're installed leaves me confused a lot of the time, as there doesn't seem to be a dedicated uninstall control panel like in Windows (or Linux, through package managers). Instead, you have to hope that the driver installer leaves some sort of uninstall script somewhere.
> 
> That, and the only Macs I ever owned were old PowerBook G3s, which the Recon3D USB wouldn't support anyway (Intel-only drivers).
> 
> ...



Well, the thing about Mac drivers... Since Apple knows all the hardware configurations, you don't have to install drivers. I went looking, and besides USB sound "cards" the only PCI expansion slot cards for the Mac Pros start around $1000, and they ain't gaming cards. In my case, things like losing sound are a risk of hacking support for custom hardware. I don't know if it'd ever interest you, but the website tonymacx86. Com wrote all the translation stuff I used and they have a bunch of helpful guides, including one about re-installing audio and Ethernet drivers after an update (thank god the Ethernet carried over so that just worked). In the guide, it basically says try to use their update tool once or twice, and if that doesn't work, reinstall the OS or revert to a backup. I have a backup option, but apparently I never turned it on. So I've got my stuff backed up as it is now, but I'm dealing with other things than reinstalling the OS nicely onto the translation layer right now, and the Recon3D should work and prevent future problems. I didn't really expect you to hand me a golden packet of answers (though that would've been shiny!), few people use Macs, fewer still bother to build their own.

I should've pony'd up for UPS Ground, sometimes the options aren't clear except for the estimated number of days. I also ordered it a day before you, and new jersey is the next state over from me.

Thanks for the Internet sympathy, it's part of my Mom's ongoing war against videogames. The side effects are worse, but this isn't as bad as the time I was playing a fighting game with a friend (who isn't very coordinated in games that aren't racing), I was winning pretty easily, and my sister ran upstairs and told my mom that we were beating up girls. My mom legit thought the girls were programmed to lose (dead or alive 2, kasumi vs hayate), and made me break the disk in half. Back to the current day, I'm just hoping to get past the email stage of job interviews before the Internet goes down, because moving out was my plan all along anyway.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Apple can account for internal hardware, but USB devices are another matter. They sure don't provide drivers for USB/FireWire audio devices, Wacom drawing tablets, and other assorted peripherals out-of-the-box.
   
  I thought about Hackintoshing a few times because my primary desktop's components were, by coincidence, quite compatible with Hackintoshing efforts. However, I then realized that for a machine primarily used for gaming, using an OS that isn't Windows would largely be pointless, especially given the loss of hardware sound acceleration due to X-Fi non-support.
   
  Then there's how OS X Lion started taking a turn for the worse interface-wise AND removed Rosetta, denying PowerPC backwards compatibility. I hope Snow Leopard still remains a viable option for years to come, but the harsh reality of OS X is that if you use a version more than once removed from the latest version, you're going to lose third-party app support very quickly. OS X Tiger has already lost support for even basic things like Web browsers, yet those same Web browsers STILL support Windows XP (released around the same time the earliest versions of OS X were). Go figure...
   
  ...Holy crap, your mom is nuts. Thank goodness my parents never were THAT insanely misguided about videogames. I wish you luck on your job search so that you can move out before the worst comes to pass.


----------



## Evshrug

Its true, printers and Wacom tablets get full functionality once the mfr drivers and software are installed, but my Wacom capture worked as a two button "mouse" (pointing device) with pen and touch out of the box, and the generic Mac drivers actually allow tabloid-sized printing/scaling on my grandfather's wide-format printer while his Windows 7 laptop only prints 8x10.5 sheets or an 8x10.5 sized image on the top-right of a tabloid sheet, lol. But yeah, after Bungie's Mac and Mac only games, AmbrosiaSW's Escape Velocity series, the Mac/Windows simultaneous releases of Lucasarts (Full Throttle!!!) and Blizzard games, and the failure of the Pippin (LOL), Mac gaming... died.

I actually find the fighting game story funny despite having lived it, sometime while owning a dreamcast was when she started really to grow her hate for games. Around the time when it was never ok to play games (and after breaking that one game) was when I started hiding my habits, and playing more than ever before, lol! It's like that kid who grew up only allowed to drink soda or eat candy but three times a month, then they get some measure of freedom and go completely overboard on the junk food.


----------



## HalidePisces

There seem to be a lot of USB sound cards around these days. Is there a quality difference between PCI/PCIe and USB? Also, NamelessPFG, did you get around to trying the Dolby/DTS decoding for the older X-Fi cards?


----------



## NamelessPFG

I never got around to testing the Dolby Digital/DTS _de_coding for older X-Fi cards, sorry. The reasons are twofold:
   
  -The only cards that support it are the original X-Fi cards, those being the XtremeMusic, Platinum (XtremeMusic with 5.25" front-panel bay), Fatal1ty FPS (Platinum with 64 MB X-RAM), and the Elite Pro (slightly different card with better DAC and a huge external I/O box). Creative has a full list here, complete with model numbers.
  -If neither the 5.25" front panel bay or the external I/O box are included, then you need this proprietary Flexijack S/PDIF adapter.
   
  Ideally, I'd get the X-Fi Elite Pro package since they're not as easy to confuse with the XtremeGamer Fatal1ty Pro cards (which are full-height, unlike most XtremeGamer cards, and appear almost identical to the Fatal1ty FPS except that they don't have the Decoder tab and probably didn't come with 5.25" bays either), but the ones that do pop up on eBay sell for far too much, usually around $200.
   
  Still, it's a feature that shouldn't have been removed in the first place. It would have been nice to eventually record my Xbox games with Dolby Digital sound instead of downmixed stereo.
   
  As for quality differences, first impressions with the Recon3D USB have shown the following:
   
  -48 KHz ONLY. No 44.1 KHz support whatsoever, which means WASAPI exclusive mode for most music listening is right out. It doesn't support ASIO natively, either, so forget about that.
  -The SniperCzar-discovered workaround for using USB DACs results in a MASSIVE sound quality penalty. Sounds all distorted and crap. Admitted, I didn't install the Recon3D drivers on my desktop to test that for fear that it would screw up the X-Fi Titanium HD side of things, and it's pretty bare-bones in driverless mode.
  -The current Recon3D drivers have ALchemy version 1.43, whereas most of the recent X-Fi drivers use version 1.42. Unfortunately, this STILL doesn't fix Thief 1 and 2. Fortunately, I think I've figured out a way to install 1.35 in their place, borrowing the ALchemy installer files from the X-Fi Titanium HD's driver package and slipping them amidst the Recon3D driver installer's files. (I should try that with other X-Fi cards.)
  -Surprisingly, I _can_ enable X-Fi/Ultra High settings in Battlefield 2, but I hear noticeable reverb effects being applied to the menu sounds that I don't recall happening on any of my actual X-Fi cards.
  -The S/PDIF input is NOT presented as a recording device, so while it's useful as an Astro Mixamp/Turtle Beach Ear Force DSS type of device for console gaming, you CANNOT record Dolby Digital sources with it.
  -THX TruStudio Surround and CMSS-3D Headphone do NOT sound the same. Which is better and which is worse? Too early for me to make a decision yet.
  -No SoundFont support for older games with MIDI music, so you're stuck with the default Microsoft software MIDI synth. Fortunately, you can use the BASSMIDI driver in its place, and Vista MIDI Fix to make it the default device. Unfortunately, some friends of mine have issues with it crashing the DXX-Rebirth Descent source ports that I never had to put up with on my X-Fi cards, so there could be more incompatibility with that route.
  -For such a small device, the noise floor is surprisingly good. I can barely hear any noise with a silent signal using the HTF600. However, it's still not truly SILENT like the internal X-Fi cards.
   
  They're still first impressions, though, and I have a lot to figure out about the Recon3D USB's quirks. However, it's safe to say that even this thing won't hold up to the proper X-Fi cards with the EMU20k1/EMU20k2. It might still have an edge over the "X-Fi" USB devices, though (which I consider fakes like the XtremeAudio in that they also lack the proper DSP), but I've never had one of those to test.


----------



## Phos

> -If neither the 5.25" front panel bay or the external I/O box are included, then you need this proprietary Flexijack S/PDIF adapter.


 
  It's not actually proprietary, the "3.5mm jack with a window" is on a lot of devices.  Apparently a lot of macs have them as well.  I also want to say it can be used with a 3.5mm to RCA cable, but I'm not sure on that.  Might have been a mistake.  I never used my PCI X-Fi like that.


----------



## Evshrug

Nameless, I was going to ask if you had received your recon3D yet, but you answered that for me. UPS tracked it all the way to my local post office (with two updates saying it was Transferred to the post office) on Monday morning, but calling the post office I get the people there telling me they have an email & nothing else, and that the "Thornburg, PA, United States 08/27/2012 10:28 A.M. Package transferred to post office" message only means its sitting on a "pallet" in a UPS sorting facility.

Buncha bull.

When I finally get it, I'll report back on using it on a Mac with Creative's drivers & software installed. I have to admit, I don't know what WASAPI or AISO means or does, but then I've no experience finding audiophile file formats either beyond a Cd's typical AIFF encoding and Apple Lossless. I have a program called VNC Player that supports all kinds of audio filetypes and playback modes, but the program has never endeared itself to me.

My MacBook Pro (and I believe my PowerBook before that) has a "3.5mm jack with a window" in it.


----------



## robwalton

Hey Nameless, sorry if this topic has been already discussed, but I wanted to ask you about the Mixamp.
   
  I currently game with the following setup: ASUS P8P67 (regular model) -> Optical Cable -> Mixamp 5.1 -> DT990 Pro (thanks Mad Lust for the recommendation!).
   
  Now I know that for PC the Mixamp isn't the best choice, but since I already had it, and often use it with my PS3, I decided to go ahead and use it with my PC.
   
  So my question is, is this setup fine for gaming on PC (I am more of an immersion guy, not competitive), or is my motherboard a bottleneck, and I should invest in a sound card to complement the Mixamp/or cut it out of the equation?
   
  Thanks a lot and sorry again if this was discussed and I missed it!


----------



## 0sync0

Quote: 





robwalton said:


> Hey Nameless, sorry if this topic has been already discussed, but I wanted to ask you about the Mixamp.
> 
> I currently game with the following setup: ASUS P8P67 (regular model) -> Optical Cable -> Mixamp 5.1 -> DT990 Pro (thanks Mad Lust for the recommendation!).
> 
> ...


 

 The Mixamp needs a surround signal and I don't think it is getting one from your mobo when playing games.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





robwalton said:


> Hey Nameless, sorry if this topic has been already discussed, but I wanted to ask you about the Mixamp.
> 
> I currently game with the following setup: ASUS P8P67 (regular model) -> Optical Cable -> Mixamp 5.1 -> DT990 Pro (thanks Mad Lust for the recommendation!).
> 
> ...


 
   
  What 0sync0 said. If it isn't getting an actual Dolby Digital signal from your computer, then you might as well not bother with the Mixamp, which is a console gaming device at heart. You're better off keeping it to your PS3.
   
  Your motherboard has DTS Surround Sensation support, but alas, the DTS Connect portion won't help you as the Mixamp can't decode DTS. For that matter, the discontinued SU-DH1 is the ONLY Dolby Headphone DAC/DSP I know of that can decode DTS.
   
  Even then, as I keep saying (in fact, I just revised my guide to point this out), a sound card provides better sound quality and more features at less cost. You have some PCI slots on that motherboard along with PCI-Express ones, so you have plenty of options.
   
If you have $43 to spare, you could get one of these X-Fi Titanium cards. It's affordable, has all the PC gaming features you could ask for, and Dolby Digital Live support means you could use the Mixamp if you wanted to run your own CMSS-3D Headphone vs. Dolby Headphone comparisons.


----------



## Phos

The DTS thing on his motherboard isn't already an HRTF thing?


----------



## robwalton

Quote: 





0sync0 said:


> The Mixamp needs a surround signal and I don't think it is getting one from your mobo when playing games.


 
   
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> What 0sync0 said. If it isn't getting an actual Dolby Digital signal from your computer, then you might as well not bother with the Mixamp, which is a console gaming device at heart. You're better off keeping it to your PS3.
> 
> Your motherboard has DTS Surround Sensation support, but alas, the DTS Connect portion won't help you as the Mixamp can't decode DTS. For that matter, the discontinued SU-DH1 is the ONLY Dolby Headphone DAC/DSP I know of that can decode DTS.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hmm, I see, I thought initially that the Mixamp would be enough, so I didn't consider that when I was building my PC, thanks for the advice!
   
  Any cheap options that would work with my Mixamp?
   
  I live abroad, so while I would get that Xi-Fi deal for 43 bucks in a heartbeat, unfortunately I can't, and a similar model would go for something like $200 here in Brazil.
   
  Thanks!


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





robwalton said:


> Hmm, I see, I thought initially that the Mixamp would be enough, so I didn't consider that when I was building my PC, thanks for the advice!
> 
> Any cheap options that would work with my Mixamp?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Aw, you live abroad? I'd help you with that, but you'd have to pay for international shipping in addition to the cost of the card itself. Too bad that Creative hardware is generally overpriced outside of the US, as far as I can tell.
   
  You see, most of the PC sound cards we recommend basically make the Mixamp redundant because they have features like Dolby Headphone or CMSS-3D Headphone right in their drivers. They also tend to support older PC games with hardware-accelerated audio better. That is what I mean by sound cards providing more features at less cost.
   
  How much can you get an Asus Xonar DG for in your area? I hope it's more in line with our US$30 prices, and it's the budget sound card I usually recommend when X-Fi Titaniums aren't on sale like that.
   
  In other news: using ALchemy 1.35 on the Recon3D did NOT help Thief 1 and 2 one bit. This issue's more complicated than I first suspected, and could very well be a combination of the hardware and ALchemy version used. Maybe I should give 1.43 a shot on the Titanium HD to see what happens.
   
  Also, I'm about to try the insane thing: having Recon3D USB and Titanium HD drivers installed simultaneously, for easier comparison. Here's hoping that nothing breaks because of it.
   
  ...And now that I have, it increasingly looks like getting Thief 1 and 2 to work properly with ALchemy (sound in cutscenes, EAX effects not all out of control with reverb and whatnot) depends less on the ALchemy version used and more on the sound hardware used. X-Fi MB, Recon3D, and other software solutions are right out, but that doesn't explain why I recall the X-Fi Forte acting up while the X-Fi Titanium HD works fine.
   
  I also know ALchemy was updated to 1.43, because I checked the DS3D support details through Everest/AIDA64, and it reported 128 hardware channels instead of 64. Oddly enough, it still doesn't show support for EAX 5 under DS3D for the X-Fi while it does for the Recon3D, but no game I know of uses EAX 5 through DS3D instead of OpenAL anyway.


----------



## robwalton

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Aw, you live abroad? I'd help you with that, but you'd have to pay for international shipping in addition to the cost of the card itself. Too bad that Creative hardware is generally overpriced outside of the US, as far as I can tell.
> 
> You see, most of the PC sound cards we recommend basically make the Mixamp redundant because they have features like Dolby Headphone or CMSS-3D Headphone right in their drivers. They also tend to support older PC games with hardware-accelerated audio better. That is what I mean by sound cards providing more features at less cost.
> 
> How much can you get an Asus Xonar DG for in your area? I hope it's more in line with our US$30 prices, and it's the budget sound card I usually recommend when X-Fi Titaniums aren't on sale like that.


 
   
  International shipping isn't much of an issue for me, since a Asus Xonar DG is about $90 bucks and up here, so it is way more expensive than just importing, specially since I think I won't get taxed with a 40 dollar card (I guess it is 49.99 now, but still a nice deal). Pretty much everything is double the price here.
   
  Do you know any place that would ship cards internationally?
   
  If I got a better sound card, do you think I would be able to output it to my Mixamp and only use it as an Amp, keeping the surround effect from the card intact?
   
  EDIT: Cheap idea here: If I output the DTS sound from my motherboard, or a Xonar 5.1 through the 3.5 cable, plug it into the Mixamp and turn off the Dolby Effect, will I get a better sound positioning than what I have right now, as if the sound was only being amplified by the MixAmp, but not messed with?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





robwalton said:


> International shipping isn't much of an issue for me, since a Asus Xonar DG is about $90 bucks and up here, so it is way more expensive than just importing, specially since I think I won't get taxed with a 40 dollar card (I guess it is 49.99 now, but still a nice deal). Pretty much everything is double the price here.
> 
> Do you know any place that would ship cards internationally?
> 
> ...


 
   
  $90? Ridiculous! That's triple the price for a fairly low-end card! I guess you're in one of the places with ridiculous computer parts prices...
   
  I don't really know the sites that ship internationally, but what I can do is have you send me the money for the card and international shipping over PayPal, I order the card myself, and then ship it to you. I've helped people out like that before, so they can vouch for me.
   
  You could, in theory, leave the Mixamp's Dolby Headphone mode off, and then it acts as a straight S/PDIF stereo DAC/amp. The important thing is to make sure that the sound card outputs a surround mix for headphones in stereo PCM format over S/PDIF. I know X-Fi cards can do this; not sure about Xonar/C-Media cards in general since there's a lot of conflicting reports.
   
  Enabling DTS on a sound card will just result in you getting NO sound because the Mixamp cannot decode the signal in the first place! Again, for what you're suggesting to work, you need a stereo PCM signal that's already had the headphone surround mix done to it.


----------



## robwalton

> I don't really know the sites that ship internationally, but what I can do is have you send me the money for the card and international shipping over PayPal, I order the card myself, and then ship it to you. I've helped people out like that before, so they can vouch for me.


 
   
  Well, that sure is an interesting proposition, specially for the refurb X-Fi, which would save me a lot of cash.
   
  Everything imported is expensive here, you should see how much we pay for cars, you would not believe!
   
  How much dos international shipping cost?
   
  But are you sure you wouldn't mind doing this, seems very nice of you to offer! Drop me a message if you think it is fine with you and we can talk further.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





robwalton said:


> Well, that sure is an interesting proposition, specially for the refurb X-Fi, which would save me a lot of cash.
> 
> Everything imported is expensive here, you should see how much we pay for cars, you would not believe!
> 
> ...


 
   
  Check your PM inbox.


----------



## Phos

OK, this is an interesting thing I've happened upon something unusual: A bunch of demo files from individual HRTF profiles.  These are usually averaged together but here we have files based on single individuals, check it out:
   
http://recherche.ircam.fr/equipes/salles/listen/sounds.html
   
  I also found an ambisonics player that kind of works and supports HRTF, but it seems to have never reached an actually useful state considering that the author seems to doubt his own implementation:
   
https://sites.google.com/a/klaveness.info/www/ambisonics-player


----------



## HalidePisces

NamelessPFG, have you checked out German eBay? There's a few for X-Fi Elite Pro cards for sale. As of this post, there's one going for 100 EUR, but a few have sold for around 60 EUR. I don't know if international shipping would be an issue, but it seems like a good deal even if you'd need someone to help with that. Better than waiting until PCI slots are completely phased out of motherboards?
   
  So the USB sound cards are pretty much glorified MixAmps (or any other portable DAC)? I'm a bit surprised Creative is releasing internal sound cards later this year. Does Windows 8 do something for hardware audio? The Z-Series seems to be better than the Recon3D but still far behind the X-Fi. It seems to have less multimedia input support, but that's been a trend now (X-Fi Elite Pro -> X-Fi Platinum Fatal1ty -> X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty/Recon3D). No mention of EAX makes me a bit wary; probably means it's better for newer games than for semi-retro gaming. And unless they changed the name, not sure if CMSS is still around. In the end, higher SNR is the only thing it really has going for it.


----------



## NamelessPFG

International shipping AND the USD-EUR exchange rate is what makes that impractical for me.
   
  The Recon3D USB's OpenAL caps show that it uses a "software" renderer. NOT the usual "Generic Software" device, but still some sort of software renderer that doesn't quite work right with a few games. X-Fi MB has similar issues with its software OpenAL renderer, too.
   
  Also baffling is why it will only support 48 KHz, even with drivers that could add more resampling features. That makes it less appealing as a USB DAC for those who want bit-perfect output.
   
  They say Windows 8 is making improvements for audio in general, but unless they wind up re-implementing DirectSound3D, I don't think it'll be of any use for gaming.


----------



## Evshrug

halidepisces said:


> So the USB sound cards are pretty much glorified MixAmps (or any other portable DAC)? I'm a bit surprised Creative is releasing internal sound cards later this year. Does Windows 8 do something for hardware audio? The Z-Series seems to be better than the Recon3D but still far behind the X-Fi. It seems to have less multimedia input support, but that's been a trend now (X-Fi Elite Pro -> X-Fi Platinum Fatal1ty -> X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty/Recon3D). No mention of EAX makes me a bit wary; probably means it's better for newer games than for semi-retro gaming. And unless they changed the name, not sure if CMSS is still around. In the end, higher SNR is the only thing it really has going for it.




I know this was not directed at me, but I am pretty sure Creative dropped CMSS when they started the Recon3D line. EAX may be gone... but looking forward it seems games create environmental effects internally, and older games are getting harder and harder to port to new systems. The S/Nr actually looks pretty impressive on these new Z-cards, the fidelity may have improved instead of relying on extra bells and whistles that aren't getting much attention these days. Sucks for retro gaming, I do hope the spreading love for headphones and the aging of console platforms rejuvenate cutting-edge gaming audio.

I personally feel the Recon3D USB I just got is different enough from the Mixamp to be overall the better product. Though the amp is weak and Astro's attempt suits a wider range of headphones out-of-the-box, the Creative sound card completely handles all the audio for my Mac and allowed me to max out the CPU intensive sound options on the CPU intensive Starcraft 2 game without any perceived hit to framerate, even during max-supply late-game. I won't deny an internal card may perform better on PC, but the Recon3D is IMO in a different class from the Mixamp.


----------



## Evshrug

By the way Nameless, I dumped my rather lengthy review on the Recon3D on MLE's thread (wrote while reviewing). Could you please remind me how to write a review article (like they do for headphones in the sidebar), so I can have an easier to find post while changing my thread entry to a less-intrusive link?

Of course, I would be pleased as punch if you read it, lol #^_^#


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> By the way Nameless, I dumped my rather lengthy review on the Recon3D on MLE's thread (wrote while reviewing). Could you please remind me how to write a review article (like they do for headphones in the sidebar), so I can have an easier to find post while changing my thread entry to a less-intrusive link?
> Of course, I would be pleased as punch if you read it, lol #^_^#


 
   
I read the review in question a few times. Should be a nice complement to my upcoming review, because mine will naturally be more PC gaming-centric. I can't really say there was anything wrong with your review; it was organized, and you posted your honest opinions in a way that was easy to read.
   
  Further testing with the Recon3D revealed:
   
  -It does support 44.1 KHz after all...but only through S/PDIF. 88.2 KHz and 96 KHz are unsupported.
  -Feeding it DTS signals only gets you dead silence. Better than ear-shredding noise, I suppose.
  -SineGen and a stereo mix signal from the Titanium HD, played through the Recon3D, yielded some seriously distorted treble. Shrill, harsh, and unnatural at high volumes. (This is with all processing modes on both ends off.) The weird thing is that it sounds fine when running in USB mode, without the distortion, and running my SU-DH1 the same way with stereo mix from the Titanium HD doesn't result in the treble distortion. I also didn't notice anything sounding really off when using it with my Xbox, but I don't know of any tone generators or sound test utilities that run on it, either-not even any homebrew ones.
   
  I should get to the game compatibility testing soon, beyond my usual suspects...


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> I read the review in question a few times. Should be a nice complement to my upcoming review, because mine will naturally be more PC gaming-centric. I can't really say there was anything wrong with your review; it was organized, and you posted your honest opinions in a way that was easy to read.




Thanks! I had hoped to give plenty of info without causing reader overload – thanks for commenting on the organization, I really tried to break it down so that readers wouldn't be intimidated by a wall of formal text). I tried to use specific examples because I am aware that such testing can get very subjective (and of course all from my perspective), but hopefully the examples give good points of reference. Of course, ALL THAT was going to be hard for me to judge for myself for effectiveness, because I was testing and writing into 5:30 am  For example, I'm not sure I had the Recon3D's volume at max, because yesterday I was able to bump it up one more step while playing some more ES: Oblivion. 
Oblivion sounded pretty decent piped Recon3D-->powered desktop speakers, by the way.



namelesspfg said:


> Further testing with the Recon3D revealed:
> 
> -It does support 44.1 KHz after all...but only through S/PDIF. 88.2 KHz and 96 KHz are unsupported.
> -Feeding it DTS signals only gets you dead silence. Better than ear-shredding noise, I suppose.
> ...




Interesting you should say that about the treble... I was having an anecdotally similar experience in CoD4 (heli guns, eugh!), though that impression should be tempered by the fact that I had been playing for 5 hours at that point, tired, and CoD4 has always been edging harshness in audio for me. Scout mode on the Recon3D actually made it more tolerable for me. I assume that when you say you're connecting with a "Stereo mix signal," you mean that you are double-amping with your X-Fi Ti soundcard and physically connecting with a 3.5mm plug instead of S/PDIF?

If there are any tests you would like me to corroborate with you, let me know 
Oh, also I obviously figured out how to post a review, but thanks for linking it!


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Interesting you should say that about the treble... I was having an anecdotally similar experience in CoD4 (heli guns, eugh!), though that impression should be tempered by the fact that I had been playing for 5 hours at that point, tired, and CoD4 has always been edging harshness in audio for me. Scout mode on the Recon3D actually made it more tolerable for me. I assume that when you say you're connecting with a "Stereo mix signal," you mean that you are double-amping with your X-Fi Ti soundcard and physically connecting with a 3.5mm plug instead of S/PDIF?
> If there are any tests you would like me to corroborate with you, let me know
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  The X-Fi cards have a "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" feature, which is what I was referring to. It basically plays whatever the X-Fi would play over its analog outputs through S/PDIF as well. Since I have it set to Headphones and the Titanium HD only has two analog channels to begin with, I don't have to worry about S/PDIF bandwidth limitations dropping extra channels when outputting PCM.
   
  I actually haven't tried the 3.5mm aux-in on the Recon3D yet. There hasn't been much of a need for me to do so, as my use cases for it will either have the audio coming through USB or S/PDIF. However, I do have the feeling that it's meant to be a line-in for PC usage and not meant for console usage at all.
   
  Scout Mode's changes seemed rather...subtle when checking the frequency response with a tone generator, but I did notice a slight drop in treble volume.


----------



## Theolliellama

Is it still possible to get 3d audio using a external dac such as my schiit audio bifrost or do i need a sound card to get 3d sound


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





theolliellama said:


> Is it still possible to get 3d audio using a external DAC such as my Schiit audio Bifrost or do I need a sound card to get 3d sound


 
  Creative and Xonar sound cards can process headphone surround sound thru the digital outputs, which you can connect to the Schiit Bifrost.
  Other sound card brands can do it too, I just do not know which ones.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





theolliellama said:


> Is it still possible to get 3d audio using a external dac such as my schiit audio bifrost or do i need a sound card to get 3d sound


 
   
  Not through USB, no. Gaming support generally isn't even a consideration for audiophile DACs.
   
  But you could just get a cheap sound card, like this $50 X-Fi Titanium, set the card's control panel to Headphone output and check "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output", and connect the optical S/PDIF output to the Bifrost, thus bypassing the sound card's DAC circuit. It still works nicely as a DSP for gaming effects when used in this manner.


----------



## NamelessPFG

All right, just played some Battlefield 2 to put the Recon3D through its paces. Same old X-Fi/Ultra High/EAX enabled settings I always use.
   
  -As I mentioned earlier, there's a strange reverb to the menu sounds that doesn't happen on an actual X-Fi card whenever it's set to X-Fi mode. However, setting it to "Hardware" does eliminate that...on the flip side, why would I want to use lower sound settings on something that's allegedly as capable as the X-Fi?
  -I was caught off-guard a few times by friendly tanks and vehicles driving beside me, coming up from behind, with the Recon3D's THX TruStudio Surround. It was like they were suddenly beside me when I heard the engine noise. That NEVER happened with CMSS-3D Headphone; I could hear everything _exactly_ where it came from with ease, especially from the rear.
   
  Also played a bit more Unreal Tournament with it, using the Old Unreal OpenAL renderer.
   
  -Underwater EAX effects seem about the same. I don't readily notice them in other map areas.
  -Elevation cues (high and low) aren't as obvious.
  -When lots of sounds are playing at once, they start sounding kind of congested together with THX TruStudio Surround, with less sense of distance and position. BF2 had the same issue at times, actually. Again, this never happens with CMSS-3D Headphone.
   
  If this is indicative of how the PCIe Sound Core3D cards perform (since they allegedly do their OpenAL processing in software as well), this is not a good sign for Creative. I'm still recommending X-Fi Titanium (HD) cards wherever possible for PC gaming.


----------



## Evshrug

Oh well. It's still waaaaaay better than the turtle beach DSS2 if the "360 Surround speaker swoosh" clip on the Best Buy kiosk was anything to go by for positioning only.

One thing I'm not to clear on... Does it still create virtual surround when THX Pro mode is turned off?


----------



## NamelessPFG

The front left/right channels sound distinctly off to the sides, as clear as you'd expect in typical stereo mode, with THX off.
   
  The rear left/right channels are presented rather weirdly; they both seem to be coming vaguely from the rear, 6 o'clock. There's no left/right directionality there for some reason.
   
  Note that Scout Mode is very much the "THX off" presentation with some sort of EQ applied, so the front sounds don't quite sound like they're coming from the front, but from the sides.


----------



## Phos

I imagine that might have something to do with the EQ they used screwing up the HRTF's own EQ effects.  Seems like a really pointless feature.


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> The front left/right channels sound distinctly off to the sides, as clear as you'd expect in typical stereo mode, with THX off.
> 
> The rear left/right channels are presented rather weirdly; they both seem to be coming vaguely from the rear, 6 o'clock. There's no left/right directionality there for some reason.
> 
> Note that Scout Mode is very much the "THX off" presentation with some sort of EQ applied, so the front sounds don't quite sound like they're coming from the front, but from the sides.




Well, I haven't been able to play since around the time of my review, and I was tired by the time I got around to testing those features. I used the Recon3D exclusively in Starcraft2 with little desktop speakers after the review, because I wanted to see what rank I could get before my mother shut down our Internet... This post brought to you via phone hotspot. I think RTS games are good mental exercise for people with ADHD, my mom thinks I'm training myself to kill people while also socially isolating myself :/ Now that the Internet is down, the only game I am actively playing that I think will benefit from virtual surround is Oblivion.


----------



## dedemouse

Hi, newb ask here.
   
  I planned to buy Titanium HD card but i always get an impression Titanium HD isn't really impressive for music. Since i'm a hardcore in both game and music, maybe using a cheap X-Fi card only as DSP is a better solution. So, can anyone recommend me any good cheap X-Fi card? or is there any card that better than Titanium HD with a an CMSS-3D?
   
  Very thanks.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





dedemouse said:


> Hi, newb ask here.
> 
> I planned to buy Titanium HD card but i always get an impression Titanium HD isn't really impressive for music. Since I'm a hardcore in both game and music, maybe using a cheap X-Fi card only as DSP is a better solution. So, can anyone recommend me any good cheap X-Fi card? or is there any card that better than Titanium HD with a an CMSS-3D?
> 
> Very thanks.


 
  I'm of the impression that the Titanium HD is the best Creative sound card for audio quality (music, gaming, movies).
  Has the PCM1794 DAC chip.
  But I'm far from a Creative expert.


----------



## HalidePisces

Quote: 





dedemouse said:


> Hi, newb ask here.
> 
> I planned to buy Titanium HD card but i always get an impression Titanium HD isn't really impressive for music. Since i'm a hardcore in both game and music, maybe using a cheap X-Fi card only as DSP is a better solution. So, can anyone recommend me any good cheap X-Fi card? or is there any card that better than Titanium HD with a an CMSS-3D?
> 
> Very thanks.


 
  It's not too shabby for music as its DAC is a Burr-Brown PCM 1794A, but you can always funnel the output to an external DAC. The Crystalizer is a YMMV thing. One thing to keep in mind with the Titanium HD is that it does not have XP drivers. If this is an issue, you'll want one of the earlier cards in the X-Fi line which support XP (both 32 and 64-bit versions), such as the Titanium Fatal1ty. If you just need the DSP for CMSS-3D, I think any of internal X-Fi cards will do. Not too sure on the X-Fi Xtreme Audio (which isn't a real X-Fi) and the USB X-Fi line.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





dedemouse said:


> Hi, newb ask here.
> 
> I planned to buy Titanium HD card but i always get an impression Titanium HD isn't really impressive for music. Since i'm a hardcore in both game and music, maybe using a cheap X-Fi card only as DSP is a better solution. So, can anyone recommend me any good cheap X-Fi card? or is there any card that better than Titanium HD with a an CMSS-3D?
> 
> Very thanks.


 
   
  The Titanium HD is a very competent card for music; it's just that if you're not gaming, there's little incentive to buy one over a Xonar Essence or an HT Omega card, especially if you want what amounts to a FiiO E9 amp built-in instead of paying extra for it. (Not that such amps do you any good if you get into electrostatics, but that's a niche case.)
   
  The only card that might be better than the Titanium HD in analog sound quality without losing the X-Fi DSP's gaming advantages is the Onkyo SE-300PCIE, and that's a card which isn't really sold outside of Japan and is also very expensive.
   
  X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) cards are selling for $45 on Newegg right now. They have full-size Toslink/optical S/PDIF outputs, so no fiddling with adapters if you want to use an audiophile DAC with them.


----------



## hfshuflr

Hey there, great thread nameless, had a question for you or anyone who happens to know the answer:
   
  Planning on purchasing a new computer, and currently have Audio Technica ath-ad700's.  Looking to upgrade my current sound situation with my computer upgrade.  I saw the new Asus Phoebus, and leaning heavily on purchasing this--the one thing I sorely missed from my Logitech cheap headset was the mute & volume button built into the cord.  Also like my ad700's a lot, but looking for more bass (as I listen to Drum and Bass and other electronica when not gaming) in my headphones.  I was thinking of going for the HE-400's based on Mad Lust Envy's thread on headphones.  So my question is this:
   
  1. Any opinion on the sound card pairing with those headphones?  I'm under the impression the Amp on the soundcard should be enough.
  2. Besides the Q701, is there another set of solid "gaming" cans I should consider at the "$500 or below" range?
  3. Anticipate my gaming sound needs aren't that high (mostly play League of Legends) anything I should consider with that in mind?
   
  Thanks in advance for any suggestions or tips anyone is able to shoot my way


----------



## Bachnaify

Hi ! I'm going to buy Denon AH-D7000. My soundcard is ASUS Xonar Essence One. So should I buy DAC like ASUS Xonar Essence One or new sound card or I can just plug AH-D7000 to Essence STX and will be fine ? Mad Lust Envy told me that Essence STX has to high output impedance for this low impedance (25 ohm) cans. 
   
  So what I supposed to do ? To buy ?
   
  Please for help  Greetings


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





bachnaify said:


> Hi ! I'm going to buy Denon AH-D7000. My sound card is ASUS Xonar Essence One. So should I buy DAC like ASUS Xonar Essence One or new sound card or I can just plug AH-D7000 to Essence STX and will be fine ? Mad Lust Envy told me that Essence STX has to high output impedance for this low impedance (25 ohm) cans.
> 
> So what I supposed to do ? To buy ?
> 
> Please for help  Greetings


 
  "My sound card is Asus Essence One. So should I buy DAC like Asus Essence One"???
  You mean you already have the Asus Xonar Essence One and should you buy a separate DAC?
   
  Get the O2 (Objective 2) headphone amplifier and plug it into the RCA outputs on your Essence One.
  The O2 has a very low impedance.
  (usually there are used O2s sold in the "Amplifiers for Sale" thread)


----------



## Bachnaify

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> "My sound card is Asus Essence One. So should I buy DAC like Asus Essence One"???
> You mean you already have the Asus Xonar Essence One and should you buy a separate DAC?
> 
> Get the O2 (Objective 2) headphone amplifier and plug it into the RCA outputs on your Essence One.
> ...


 
  No. I have ASUS Xonar Essence STX and nothing more. My mistake. I don't know why I wrote that I have Essence One. I was think about STX.  I'm going to buy Denon AH-D7000 but I don't know if Essence STX is enough good for this cans. So I should buy Essence One and O2, yes ? and sold my Essence STX ?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





bachnaify said:


> No. I have ASUS Xonar Essence STX and nothing more. My mistake. I don't know why I wrote that I have Essence One. I was think about STX.  I'm going to buy Denon AH-D7000 but I don't know if Essence STX is enough good for this cans. So I should buy Essence One and O2, yes ? and sold my Essence STX ?


 
  The Essence STX (& ST & Phoebus) come with the 6120A2 headphone amplifier chip, which has an impedance of 10-Ohm.
  Which is not a problem for headphones that are 80-Ohms or higher, but is a negative for headphones under 80-Ohms
  and the Denon AH-D7000s are only 25-Ohm.
   
  If all your doing is music (2-channel) audio, then just get the O2 and plug it into the RCA outputs on the Essence STX.
   
  If you need (Dolby Headphone) surround sound for movies and gaming, then also get an external DAC with S/PDIF optical or coaxial input.
  So you would run a cable (optical or coaxial) from the S/PDIF output on the Essence STX to the external DAC, then an analog (2-channel) cable from the external DAC to the input on the O2.
   
  You could also get an external DAC/Amp all in one device (with optical/coaxial input), but it would need to have a low headphone jack output impedance, like 3.125-Ohms or less is recommended.


----------



## Bachnaify

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> If you need (Dolby Headphone) surround sound for movies and gaming, then also get an external DAC with S/PDIF optical or coaxial input.
> So you would run a cable (optical or coaxial) from the S/PDIF output on the Essence STX to the external DAC, then an analog (2-channel) cable from the external DAC to the input on the O2.
> 
> You could also get an external DAC/Amp all in one device (with optical/coaxial input), but it would need to have a low headphone jack output impedance, like 3.125-Ohms or less is recommended.


 
   
  It will be for gaming. Could You tell me which more amp/DAC's or AMP&DAC in one device will be good too for this cans, cause I can't found O2 in any shop. What about Fiio E10 or combo E7 + E9 ? or maybe any HiFiman, NuForce, styleaudio, audiotrak, Trendsaudio amp/dac ?
   
  And if I buy AMP - should I change Essence sTX to Essence One and connect AMP to Essence One or it's better to stay with Essence STX and connect amp to him ?
   
  or maybe You can reccommend one device AMP+DAC ?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





hfshuflr said:


> Hey there, great thread nameless, had a question for you or anyone who happens to know the answer:
> 
> Planning on purchasing a new computer, and currently have Audio Technica ath-ad700's.  Looking to upgrade my current sound situation with my computer upgrade.  I saw the new Asus Phoebus, and leaning heavily on purchasing this--the one thing I sorely missed from my Logitech cheap headset was the mute & volume button built into the cord.  Also like my ad700's a lot, but looking for more bass (as I listen to Drum and Bass and other electronica when not gaming) in my headphones.  I was thinking of going for the HE-400's based on Mad Lust Envy's thread on headphones.  So my question is this:
> 
> ...


 
   
  1. I don't see any problem with that pairing, though the AD700 is sensitive enough to be driven adequately from any sound card.
  2. $500 budget? I was going to say Stax, but if bass slam/impact in particular is what you're looking for, you may feel rather underwhelmed without using a bit of EQ due to the way electrostatics tend to present bass. The HE-400 seems like a safe bet (and one that doesn't require specialized amplification), but I haven't tried it.
  3. If MOBAs like LoL are primarily what you play, then I take it you're not really looking for positional audio like the FPS gamers out there, but just general clarity and sound quality?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





bachnaify said:


> It will be for gaming. Could You tell me which more amp/DAC's or AMP&DAC in one device will be good too for this cans, cause I can't found O2 in any shop. What about Fiio E10 or combo E7 + E9 ? or maybe any HiFiman, NuForce, styleaudio, audiotrak, Trendsaudio amp/dac ?
> 
> And if I buy AMP - should I change Essence STX to Essence One and connect AMP to Essence One or it's better to stay with Essence STX and connect amp to him ?
> 
> or maybe You can reccommend one device AMP+DAC ?


 
  I'm not sure which external DAC/Amps combos have a low impedance.
  As your gaming (surround sound), the Fiio E10 and E7/E9  can not provide surround sound, best to keep the Essence STX.
  As the Essence One is over $500, it's not really worth it to spend all that cash for the Essence One and then hook up an amp. to it.
  best (cheaper) to just hook an external DAC/Amp to your current Essence STX's S/PDIF output.
  There are places (in Europe) that sell the Objective 2 headphone amplifier (epiphany-acoustics.co.uk).
   
  There is a thread on Head-Fi where they should be able to recommend DAC and amps for Denon 25-Ohm headphones.
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/350721/denon-d2000-d5000-md2000-md5000-appreciation-thread


----------



## Bachnaify

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> I'm not sure which external DAC/Amps combos have a low impedance.
> As your gaming (surround sound), the Fiio E10 and E7/E9  can not provide surround sound, best to keep the Essence STX.
> As the Essence One is over $500, it's not really worth it to spend all that cash for the Essence One and then hook up an amp. to it.
> best (cheaper) to just hook an external DAC/Amp to your current Essence STX's S/PDIF output.
> ...


 
  thanks man


----------



## Roller

Glad to see the thread is a alive and kicking, NamelessPFG 
   
  After being away for some time, I was surprised to read Creative was going to launch a follow up to the Recon3D codec cards, especially since they're porting features found on DSP based speakers of their own. Tt should be noted that these cards are newer revisions of the same codec based cards, therefore lacking features that have been present on Creative cards as old as the Live! series, such as hardware MIDI synthesizer, proper ASIO, hardware OpenAL and EAX.
 Regarding the software package with SBX Pro Studio, it's mainly a rebranded THX set due to avoiding royalties, which doesn't bode well for these new cards, and although that is of no consequence for people who run cards for bitperfect playback alone, it's certainly an issue for people who like to tweak their sound higher up on the sound chain.
   
  At the time being, the ideal soundcard for gaming is without a question the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD. And the whole comparison between the Asus Xonar Essence STX and the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD comes down to the connectivity one needs as well as the base signature that differs from each card, with the Titanium HD being slightly on the warmer side and the Essence STX on the cold side (this, not taking in account how both have swappable opamps).
   
  EDIT: Forgot to add that Rev. C Titanium HD cards are a noticeable improvement over Rev A. cards, both in smoothing sound without taking any punch whatsoever as well as improving highs.


----------



## NamelessPFG

It's been a while, Roller!
   
  I have to admit, I'm rather underwhelmed by Creative's software OpenAL implementation and THX TruStudio Surround on the Recon3D USB (when used with PC games), along with lack of ASIO and hardware MIDI. Par for the course for their USB devices (which are all software-based), but if the PCIe sound cards have the same "feature" set, I won't be pleased at all. Guess we better start stockpiling X-Fi HomeTheater HDs and Titanium HDs (and maybe even SE-300PCIEs if we can get our hands on them)...
   
  While the X-Fi Titanium HD's EMU20k2/CA20k2 doesn't seem noticeably "third-gen" compared to preceding X-Fi PCIe cards in terms of performance (I still recall your "third-gen DSP/APU" statements), it still performs admirably for gaming and music alike, with more stable drivers than the Auzentech X-Fi cards I've used. I must be extra lucky in that my box reads "Rev. C" on it, so I probably have one of the better cards.


----------



## Roller

Indeed it has, and I'm glad to be back and see some good people are still around.
   
  A rather troubling part of software OpenAL is when software has hardware OpenAL requirements hardcoded, preventing most (and sometimes any) access to advanced audio (usually positional accuracy but sometimes actual improved audio quality), and I haven't yet found any way to circumvent that.
   
  USB devices could have hardware audio, but the software audio and codec implementation comes from a time where USB 2.0 was nowhere to be seen, and USB 1.0/1.1 simply didn't have enough grunt to process all that data in realtime. Unfortunately, there are still plenty of dongles that run off USB 1.1, which then prevents anything above 16/44.1 or 16/48. Now, USB 2.0 has significantly more bandwidth, but the curious part is that having hardware audio through that bus would provide users improved audio, positional cue accuracy, the works, but would very likely come at the cost of a rather large overhead, something that virtually never happens when running off PCI or PCIe.
   
  Basically you're quite right, quite a few X-Fi cards should be stored for safekeeping in the event of a low quality soundcard apocalypse 
   
  Ah, the SE-300PCIE, what a remarkable beast. If only it was more easily obtainable...
   
  Well, there was some tweaking to the EMU20K2 but for the most part, the rather noticeable improvements over past generations is due to higher quality components across the entire PCB. And it's curious as to how there are still plenty of remarks that Creative cards are gaming cards, when there are quite a few examples to prove otherwise, such as the Prelude, Forte, Titanium HD, and even some USB devices of both current and legacy generations (not dongles though).
  It's a very good thing you got the proper revision, as the improvements can't be obtained through opamp swapping.
   
  And on a different note, it seems certain manufacturers are rather sensitive to proprietary tech porting, which then prevents user made software that could provide features not found on any hardware other than the manufacturers hardware, as legal actions would take place, but that's a topic for another time...


----------



## hfshuflr

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> 1. I don't see any problem with that pairing, though the AD700 is sensitive enough to be driven adequately from any sound card.
> 2. $500 budget? I was going to say Stax, but if bass slam/impact in particular is what you're looking for, you may feel rather underwhelmed without using a bit of EQ due to the way electrostatics tend to present bass. The HE-400 seems like a safe bet (and one that doesn't require specialized amplification), but I haven't tried it.
> 3. If MOBAs like LoL are primarily what you play, then I take it you're not really looking for positional audio like the FPS gamers out there, but just general clarity and sound quality?


 
   
  Thanks for replying Nameless,
  With upgrading my whole system, and finding myself also likely to purchase the Phoebus, figured it's time for an upgrade/new set of headphones.  I suppose I'm looking for some new headphones with a bit more bass (but pretty detailed/near as detailed as the AD700) and assumed I'd find that with a higher price point.  I originally thought of going for a pair of Sennheisers 600/650, but a thread search of Mad Lust Envy's headphones thread had some posts that indicated they weren't that great for gaming.  I suppose I'm looking at getting a set of great all around headphones that covers the audio advantage that comes from games that utilize audio 3d positioning (such as FPS's traditionally) especially since my time spent with my computer & headphones will be mostly gaming, but I suppose in consideration of being primarily a MOBA/LoL player, maybe I'm not looking at the right headphones.  Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I heard really great 3d audio...I remember Thief was phenomenal with the 3d audio positioning, but then it used Aureal 3d, and I haven't heard anything like it since.
   
  I saw your recommendation for Stax headphones being the best at positional audio, but considered a further investment in expensive amps and DAC's as part of that cost, so kind of thought maybe they aren't for me, at least not just yet, as I'm hoping the new sound card purchase will be the current solution for the amp/DAC requirement for my next headphones.  I hope this doesn't sound indecisive, but my reference for headphones right now really only consist of the AD700's and some CX-200 earbuds, so if I could find something along the lines of AD700's--but with more bass, I assume that's a pretty fair goal.  With that said, did you have a recommendation on general clarity & sound quality?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





hfshuflr said:


> Thanks for replying Nameless,
> With upgrading my whole system, and finding myself also likely to purchase the Phoebus, figured it's time for an upgrade/new set of headphones.  I suppose I'm looking for some new headphones with a bit more bass (but pretty detailed/near as detailed as the AD700) and assumed I'd find that with a higher price point.  I originally thought of going for a pair of Sennheisers 600/650, but a thread search of Mad Lust Envy's headphones thread had some posts that indicated they weren't that great for gaming.  I suppose I'm looking at getting a set of great all around headphones that covers the audio advantage that comes from games that utilize audio 3d positioning (such as FPS's traditionally) especially since my time spent with my computer & headphones will be mostly gaming, but I suppose in consideration of being primarily a MOBA/LoL player, maybe I'm not looking at the right headphones.  Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I heard really great 3d audio...I remember Thief was phenomenal with the 3d audio positioning, but then it used Aureal 3d, and I haven't heard anything like it since.
> 
> I saw your recommendation for Stax headphones being the best at positional audio, but considered a further investment in expensive amps and DAC's as part of that cost, so kind of thought maybe they aren't for me, at least not just yet, as I'm hoping the new sound card purchase will be the current solution for the amp/DAC requirement for my next headphones.  I hope this doesn't sound indecisive, but my reference for headphones right now really only consist of the AD700's and some CX-200 earbuds, so if I could find something along the lines of AD700's--but with more bass, I assume that's a pretty fair goal.  With that said, did you have a recommendation on general clarity & sound quality?


 
   
  Thief still remains my gold standard for gaming audio; I consider it to sound better than a lot of recent releases, even positionally.
   
  I have to admit that I'm a bit confused as to which API the first two games (and System Shock 2, since it also runs on the Dark Engine) use, though. Some sources say Aureal A3D, but it clearly also supports DirectSound3D + EAX given how well it works with ALchemy and CMSS-3D Headphone on real X-Fi cards. (On the other hand, Creative's software OpenAL renderers don't provide any sound during cutscenes, and the in-game sounds seem a bit...off.)
   
  I came from AD700s myself, and a typical Stax setup definitely has more bass in both the tactile and audible departments while also excelling at clarity and soundstage. It's not hard to beat the AD700 at bass, really. Needless to say, the AD700 quickly got sold.
   
  However, I don't consider them basshead cans by any means, especially since electrostatic bass is presented so differently from dynamic bass. They'll go deep, and you'll hear those low, cavernous notes with ease, but they don't pound your head as hard for the volume you hear, especially without any EQ applied. Some want the tactility, some don't want it, some don't care either way, and I don't know where you fall on that spectrum.


----------



## Roller

Keep in mind games used to have several different audio renderers, from A3D, MSX, DS3D SW, DS3D HW, EAX, etc, all in single game, but not all audio renderers performed the same.


----------



## Evshrug

roller said:


> Keep in mind games used to have several different audio renderers, from A3D, MSX, DS3D SW, DS3D HW, EAX, etc, all in single game, but not all audio renderers performed the same.



*headache*
And what do games do now? I mean, Battlefield 3 "cheats" and is a step back for positional accuracy, and the latest CoD games bury what could be good 3D audio on it's engine underneath overblown effects (ok, so guns and explosives are deafening in real life, but that doesn't necessarily = an improved game experience XD), I haven't seen a Halo game ported to Windows since Halo 2 (did that have EAX like the first game?). Are there ANY standouts for good PC game audio, even if they use something other than OpenAL which appears to have been left by the wayside, in the past two or three years? Metro 2033 or Skyrim?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> *headache*
> And what do games do now? I mean, Battlefield 3 "cheats" and is a step back for positional accuracy, and the latest CoD games bury what could be good 3D audio on it's engine underneath overblown effects (ok, so guns and explosives are deafening in real life, but that doesn't necessarily = an improved game experience XD), I haven't seen a Halo game ported to Windows since Halo 2 (did that have EAX like the first game?). Are there ANY standouts for good PC game audio, even if they use something other than OpenAL which appears to have been left by the wayside, in the past two or three years? Metro 2033 or Skyrim?


 
   
   
  Currently good game audio doesn't come from triple A games, as those use some of the worst (yet crossplatform, and that's why they're being used) audio renderers currently available, such as XAudio2 that's used and poorly implemented on Skyrim, however games like Metro 2033 and Mass Effect 3 do use better software audio renderer implementations. The last 2 Battlefield games aren't good at all, audio wise. Dirt games are good examples of quality audio due to a custom OpenAL implementation that works very well.
   
  The best gaming audio is found on older games, such as Fallout 3 and previous, as well as on many indie games. Usually I'm not a fan of FMOD (used on Fallout 3) as it is a software audio renderer, but since the version used is a fork with hardware audio support, it's far more passable.


----------



## Evshrug

Roller,
Thank you for the info. Shame about Skyrim; which I haven't started yet, must complete oblivion! Or at least the major quest lines from the GOTY edition. I can't go back to Fallout 3... though I had a strange sort of fascination and satisfaction from using the bolt-action rifle, after somewhere over 100 hours I couldn't wait to finish the main quest line and move on from the drab environment art. I'll have to try Metro out (the sequel will be out by the time I can afford a powerful enough graphics card, lol!), and I'm hoping Thief: Deadly Shadows gameplay will work ok with the Recon3D's ALchemy software. I just wonder if spending more on a new graphics card will be worth it if games going forward stay stuck at 5.1 or 7.1 audio.


----------



## Roller

Well, Skyrim only needed to have Oblivion's audio renderer and would have the possibility of being far more immersive. And why can't you go back to Fallout 3?
   
  You won't have any issues with Thief: Deadly Shadows being recognized by ALchemy since that game has been on the official support list for many years now. The only thing that might happen is the audio not being made available to its full extent due to lack of Creative's hardware features, therefore rendering Recon3D cards very similar to any Asus Xonar cards, which might mean either SFX missing or not being played back as they were originally meant to.
   
  About getting a new GPU, it's always a sensible choice given that games are getting more and more GPU demanding, despite the PC gaming scene being infected by lousy console ports, which then makes those games look like being work of lazy development (and to an extent they have been), forcing much higher system requirements than such games should have. Just think that even Metro 2033 has relatively odd coding that requires rather significant pixel pushing power, and to be played with maxed settings, it will require an overall enthusiast platform, with high end GPUs being an integral part of that.
   
  Keep in mind that what you do on a computer will change which GPU you should get, from media decoding, multimonitor support features, 3D, gaming, GPGPU, etc. Currently there isn't a single GPU that outperforms all others in all those tasks, so that's a consideration that has to be done prior to any purchases.


----------



## Sergezell

I want to get a new headset for PC gaming only. Due to my case set up (SLI-cards taking up a huge chunk of space), I cannot fit a sound card into my computer. I have a pretty high end motherboard that has pretty good on-board sound options. My question is:  Is it possible to use an Astro Mixamp Pro for PC-gaming without a sound card?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





sergezell said:


> I want to get a new headset for PC gaming only. Due to my case set up (SLI-cards taking up a huge chunk of space), I cannot fit a sound card into my computer. I have a pretty high end motherboard that has pretty good on-board sound options. My question is:  Is it possible to use an Astro Mixamp Pro for PC-gaming without a sound card?


 
  If the motherboard comes with a built in S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) digital output and has DDL (Dolby Digital live), then you can connect the motherboard to the Astro Mix-amp Pro, for 5.1 gaming or movies.


----------



## Sergezell

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> If the motherboard comes with a built in S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) digital output and has DDL (Dolby Digital live), then you can connect the motherboard to the Astro Mix-amp Pro, for 5.1 gaming or movies.


 
   
  I looked up my motherboard. It advertises using a Realtek ALC889 codec with Support for Dolby® Home Theater 2/4/5.1/7.1-channel. I was able to pull up the manual and search it, and found a mention to "Dolby Digital Live": "When Dolby Digital Live is enabled, only digital audio output (S/PDIF) is enabled, and you will not hear sounds from analog speakers or headphones".
   
   
  Motherboard: http://www.gigabyte.us/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3449#sp
  Audio Codec: Realtek ACL889
  Page In the Manual that Mentions Dolby Digital Live: http://www.manualowl.com/m/Gigabyte/GA-X58A-UD3R/Manual/207307?page=123  (You have to use the scroll bar and scroll down a little to see the sentence about dobly digital live)
   
  Sorry for posting so much information, but I want to make sure I can use the mixamp, before dropping a lot of money on it


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





sergezell said:


> I looked up my motherboard. It advertises using a Realtek ALC889 codec with Support for Dolby® Home Theater 2/4/5.1/7.1-channel. I was able to pull up the manual and search it, and found a mention to "Dolby Digital Live": "When Dolby Digital Live is enabled, only digital audio output (S/PDIF) is enabled, and you will not hear sounds from analog speakers or headphones".
> 
> 
> Motherboard: http://www.gigabyte.us/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3449#sp
> ...


 
   
  Sounds like you CAN use the Mixamp, if you know how to enable Dolby Digital Live through the Realtek drivers.
   
  But what I have to ask is "Why not use a more affordable USB audio device like the Xonar U3 in its place?" Do you also have consoles to use it with?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Sounds like you CAN use the Mixamp, if you know how to enable Dolby Digital Live through the Realtek drivers.
> 
> But what I have to ask is "Why not use a more affordable USB audio device like the Xonar U3 in its place?" Do you also have consoles to use it with?


 
   
   
  Both the Xonar U3 is a valid option, as well as any USB X-Fi like the X-Fi Go! (non-Pro version), X-Fi Surround 5.1 (again, non-Pro version) or the X-Fi HD USB, which provide for more gaming audio support than the Xonar U3. Again, it's all about specific user's needs.


----------



## Sergezell

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Sounds like you CAN use the Mixamp, if you know how to enable Dolby Digital Live through the Realtek drivers.
> 
> But what I have to ask is "Why not use a more affordable USB audio device like the Xonar U3 in its place?" Do you also have consoles to use it with?


 

 I didn't know such things existed! If I'm reading correctly,the Xonar/X-Fi Go seems like it a combination external sound card/headphone amp? I have a few questions about it:
   
  1. From what I'm reading it seems like the Xonar/X-Fi can take the place of the Astro Mixamp? In case my sound card doesn't work can  I also do Asto Mixamp --> Xonar U3
  2. Is the quality as good as the mixamp?
   
  The reason I ask this is because I plan to purchase the Astrix A40, which comes with mixamp.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





sergezell said:


> I didn't know such things existed! If I'm reading correctly,the Xonar/X-Fi Go seems like it a combination external sound card/headphone amp? I have a few questions about it:
> 
> 1. From what I'm reading it seems like the Xonar/X-Fi can take the place of the Astro Mixamp? In case my sound card doesn't work can  I also do Asto Mixamp --> Xonar U3
> 2. Is the quality as good as the mixamp?
> ...


 
   
   
  If you're planning on doing mainly competitive gaming on the PC, you would do good to avoid both the Mixamp (which isn't anything special at all) and the Atro A40 (below average performance). If positional cue accuracy is more important than immersion, I recommend you to get a pair of Audio Technica ATH-AD700 along with a clip-on mic/boom mic, and the X-Fi Go!/X-Fi Surround 5.1, which while lacking higher output power, does have a software package that will enable higher quality game audio, especially on legacy titles.
 The Xonar U3 has DH instead of Creative's CMSS-3D, which is a matter of personal preference as well as different titles performing better with different surround virtualization techs, this if you plan on using any, as some people won't have anything coating the original signal, but won't provide access to most advanced audio features proper audio renderers have, basically the same as onboard audio chips.
   
  Overall, do not get that bundle you were thinking off (Astro A40 + Mixamp), it's of rather low quality, performance and build quality wise.


----------



## Sergezell

Quote: 





roller said:


> If you're planning on doing mainly competitive gaming on the PC, you would do good to avoid both the Mixamp (which isn't anything special at all) and the Atro A40 (below average performance). If positional cue accuracy is more important than immersion, I recommend you to get a pair of Audio Technica ATH-AD700 along with a clip-on mic/boom mic, and the X-Fi Go!/X-Fi Surround 5.1, which while lacking higher output power, does have a software package that will enable higher quality game audio, especially on legacy titles.
> The Xonar U3 has DH instead of Creative's CMSS-3D, which is a matter of personal preference as well as different titles performing better with different surround virtualization techs, this if you plan on using any, as some people won't have anything coating the original signal, but won't provide access to most advanced audio features proper audio renderers have, basically the same as onboard audio chips.
> 
> Overall, do not get that bundle you were thinking off (Astro A40 + Mixamp), it's of rather low quality, performance and build quality wise.


 
   
  Overall I care about immersion more than competitive gaming. However, Clips-on microphones just won't do it for me. I use skype a ton, since I game with friends, and I just can't have an external microphone picking up outside noises. I also enjoy want the ease of use of a headset. I have the Senhhessier PC350s right now, and they are ok, but their bass is majorly lacking even with the mod. I read a lot of reviews on headsets, and it seemed to come down to the Senn PC 360s or 2011 Astro A40's. I was leaning toward the Astros, because they came with a mixamp. Could I theoretically just do the Sennhessier PC360 + Xi-Fi Go! ? The reason I was attracted to the mixamp, is because they allow the headphones to utilize 3D positional sound, which seems like it would be really immersive. Is the Xi-Fi Go capable of the same thing?
   
  I guess I'm still confused as to what exactly the Sonar U3/Xi-Fi Go do. Here is my understanding of the situation: High end headsets/headphones require an amplifier to reach their potential. In the living room setting you would simply plug the headphones into an amplifier, and the amplifier into a reciever. For the PC one would normally plug the headphones into an amplifier, and then the amplifier into their sound card. My computer cannot fit a sound card, and this is where I begin to become confused at my next step. What role do the Xi-Fi Go/Sonar U3 fill?  Are they external sound cards, are they amplifiers, or are they both?
   
  Sorry for all the confusion, but this is a new area of interest for me, and I'm only beginning to learn.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





sergezell said:


> Overall I care about immersion more than competitive gaming. However, Clips-on microphones just won't do it for me. I use skype a ton, since I game with friends, and I just can't have an external microphone picking up outside noises. I also enjoy want the ease of use of a headset. I have the Senhhessier PC350s right now, and they are ok, but their bass is majorly lacking even with the mod. I read a lot of reviews on headsets, and it seemed to come down to the Senn PC 360s or 2011 Astro A40's. I was leaning toward the Astros, because they came with a mixamp. Could I theoretically just do the Sennhessier PC360 + Xi-Fi Go! ?
> 
> The reason I was attracted to the mixamp, is because they allow for 3D sound, which seems like it would be really immersive. Is the Xi-Fi Go capable of the same thing?


 
   
   
  Ah, then the AD700's aren't for you. And considering you prefer the ease of use of a headset, then the Sennheiser PC360 are basically the best headsets you can get. Oddly, the PC350 aren't that easy to drive, and since you were running them straight from your onboard audio chip (regardless of a motherboard being high end, audio has basically always been an afterthought), you weren't driving them properly.
   
  The Astro A40's don't hold a candle to the Sennheiser PC360's, they're basically on opposite sides of the quality scale.
   
  Yes, the X-Fi Go! has CMSS-3D, which is a surround virtualization tech and works quite well. Now, I do think you should add a headphone amp between the X-Fi Go! and the PC360 to make sure you're delivering enough power to the headset. There are many amps out there that you can get, and basically anything above the very lowest end budget amps like FiiO E5/E6 will do the trick, such as the PA2V2 or the FiiO E11, both solid entry level amps that can be purchased for less than $100.
   
  However, if you do require multichannel support, then the X-Fi Go! won't do as it's stereo only, like the Xonar U3, and for that you would have to get a X-Fi Surround 5.1. Also, if you just need stereo output and would like a higher quality DAC that also has gaming audio support, you should consider the X-Fi HD USB. And again, I recommend you to add an amp to any of those setups.


----------



## Sergezell

Quote: 





roller said:


> Ah, then the AD700's aren't for you. And considering you prefer the ease of use of a headset, then the Sennheiser PC360 are basically the best headsets you can get. Oddly, the PC350 aren't that easy to drive, and since you were running them straight from your onboard audio chip (regardless of a motherboard being high end, audio has basically always been an afterthought), you weren't driving them properly.
> 
> The Astro A40's don't hold a candle to the Sennheiser PC360's, they're basically on opposite sides of the quality scale.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Let me start by first of saying how helpful you've been. If I hadn't of spoken to you I probably would have ended up with a couple hundred dollars worth of equipment that didn't even work properly. As I mentioned above, I'm only beginning to learn about quality high end audio, and even though I've done a bunch of reading already, it clearly hasn't been enough. I'm pretty sure you tipped me towards buying the PC360s over the A40's. Now I just need to figure out the rest.
   
  Right now I'm still a bit confused about the different roles of all of the products you mentioned above. Here is what I understand:  High end headsets/headphones require an amplifier to reach their potential. In the living room setting you would simply plug the headphones into an amplifier, and the amplifier into a reciever. For the PC one would normally plug the headphones into an amplifier, and then the amplifier into their sound card. My computer cannot fit a sound card, and this is where I begin to become confused at my next step.
   
  1. What role do the Xi-Fi Go/Sonar U3 fill?  Are they external sound cards, are they amplifiers, or are they both?
  2. What exactly is the X-Fi HD USB? Is it a better version of the above products? What is the difference between it and an internal sound card? ie: If theoretically I could fit an internal sound card in my computer, would that always be the better option over any external device?
  3. Can you recommend me a thread/website where I can read about different amp choices? I'm willing to pay about 100 dollars for an amp. How do you feel about the Astro Mixamp? Regardless of the quality of the A40 Headset, I've only seen very positive reviews for the standalone Astro Mixamp component.
   
  So if I've been learning from you correctly it sounds like what I will be purchasing for the best gaming sound in my situation will be a: Senn PC360 Headset + amplifier + Xi-Fi HD USB. Is this correct?
   
  Thanks again


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roller said:


> Both the Xonar U3 is a valid option, as well as any USB X-Fi like the X-Fi Go! (non-Pro version), X-Fi Surround 5.1 (again, non-Pro version) or the X-Fi HD USB, which provide for more gaming audio support than the Xonar U3. Again, it's all about specific user's needs.


 
   
  I haven't used any of the "X-Fi" USB devices, but now I really have to ask you if they actually do have more to offer for PC gaming audio than the Recon3D USB did. At the very least, SoundFont support for MIDI or anything like that would be nice, since I do play some classic 1990s FPSs with MIDI tracks from time to time.
   
  I know that they don't have the actual EMU20k1/EMU20k2 in them, and thus must fall back on Creative's software OpenAL renderer like the X-Fi MB driver packages for integrated audio codecs. That tends to have some strange issues that don't happen on proper hardware OpenAL implementations, like Thief 1/2 not having audio in cutscenes (which I had misattributed to an ALchemy regression in the version 1.4x range before) and Battlefield 2 sounding a bit off in the menu with the "Creative X-Fi" audio option enabled.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





sergezell said:


> Let me start by first of saying how helpful you've been. If I hadn't of spoken to you I probably would have ended up with a couple hundred dollars worth of equipment that didn't even work properly. As I mentioned above, I'm only beginning to learn about quality high end audio, and even though I've done a bunch of reading already, it clearly hasn't been enough. I'm pretty sure you tipped me towards buying the PC360s over the A40's. Now I just need to figure out the rest.
> 
> Right now I'm still a bit confused about the different roles of all of the products you mentioned above. Here is what I understand:  High end headsets/headphones require an amplifier to reach their potential. In the living room setting you would simply plug the headphones into an amplifier, and the amplifier into a reciever. For the PC one would normally plug the headphones into an amplifier, and then the amplifier into their sound card. My computer cannot fit a sound card, and this is where I begin to become confused at my next step.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  I'm glad to help  And we all start somewhere, as we are all constantly learning.
   
  Devices like the X-Fi Go! and Xonar U3 are USB DACs that act as external soundcards. The Xonar U3 has an integrated headphone amp, although it's not very powerful. All devices amplify signals that then reach you in the form of audio, but some devices have additional amplification.
   
  The X-Fi HD USB is a USB DAC like the previously mentioned products, but has higher quality components used as well as a better implementation of them, that then translates into higher sound quality. However, do note that many internal soundcards do have higher performance and would outperform consumer USB DACs such as the 3 Creative USB DACs and the Asus USB DAC.
  You would be better served with an internal soundcard such as the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD (running off PCIe instead of USB), which is basically the best gaming soundcard that has also rather high quality components that make it just as good for music and movies, which is why the current top tier consumer internal soundcards are the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD and the Asus Xonar Essence STX. Their sound quality is rather even, with each having a slightly different sound signature as well as a different feature set, namely the X-Fi Titanium HD having analog stereo and digital multichannel along with the most complete gaming audio support and headphone amplification up to 330Ohm, while the Xonar Essence STX has both analog and digital multichannel and a headphone amplifier up to 600Ohm but a very reduced gaming audio feature set. The main audible difference between both cards lies in the signature, namely the X-Fi Titanium HD is neutral with a tad of warmth while the Xonar Essence STX is neutral leaning towards colder sound.
   
  In all honesty, you're on one of the best sites regarding audio information, but there are others like Hydrogenaudio, AVS Forum, although these fork out to other areas.
   
  I think any of the two amps I mentioned would be a good start for you. About the Mixamp, I find it's a niche product, namely suited only for consoles, and I dislike it, would never acquire such a product even if it was heavily discounted.
   
  If you truly don't have a free PCIe slot for a X-Fi Titanium HD, then the PC360 + amplifier (such as a PA2V2 or FiiO E11) + X-Fi HD USB is the best setup for your usage.
   
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I haven't used any of the "X-Fi" USB devices, but now I really have to ask you if they actually do have more to offer for PC gaming audio than the Recon3D USB did. At the very least, SoundFont support for MIDI or anything like that would be nice, since I do play some classic 1990s FPSs with MIDI tracks from time to time.
> 
> I know that they don't have the actual EMU20k1/EMU20k2 in them, and thus must fall back on Creative's software OpenAL renderer like the X-Fi MB driver packages for integrated audio codecs. That tends to have some strange issues that don't happen on proper hardware OpenAL implementations, like Thief 1/2 not having audio in cutscenes (which I had misattributed to an ALchemy regression in the version 1.4x range before) and Battlefield 2 sounding a bit off in the menu with the "Creative X-Fi" audio option enabled.


 
   
   
  Well, there aren't significant differences since there isn't proper hardware audio support, but OpenAL support is improved over Recon3D USB devices. SoundFont has been present only on hardware cards and even on a few software ones, mainly due to the bus, even if that's not much of an excuse IMHO. But I believe there are moderately adequate software MIDI implementations (except AWE32 support), so you shouldn't have any drastic sound quality differences, and I certainly relate as I do play quite a bit of truly retro games.
   
  Last time I checked, there are different implementations of OpenAL on different X-Fi USB models, and some newer wrappers can also help with legacy game performance, although be careful as some versions aren't compatible with all models. But the true main issue with X-Fi USB devices is the lack of mode switching, since that only happens with X-Fi DSPs, and some games do have X-Fi only features that require Game Mode, but those games often have fallback modes that still use higher Creative features.

 BTW, I'm having a blast having my X-Fi Go! just plugged in and routing its processing to my DAC, the best of both worlds 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Took me quite some time to recall that, as I've been using both separately, one for gaming and movies while the other for music.


----------



## Sergezell

Quote: 





roller said:


> I'm glad to help  And we all start somewhere, as we are all constantly learning.
> 
> Devices like the X-Fi Go! and Xonar U3 are USB DACs that act as external soundcards. The Xonar U3 has an integrated headphone amp, although it's not very powerful. All devices amplify signals that then reach you in the form of audio, but some devices have additional amplification.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Ok I think I understand everything. I actually have all of the following products in an amazon shopping cart ready to go. The final question I have is this:
   
   I know you don't like the Astro Mixamp. The only reason I keep bringing it up is that I value that emulated 7.1 sound it offers for pinpointing where stuff is happening in games. Will I be able to achieve the same effect  with the PC360 + FiiO E11 + X-FI HD USB? If I understand you correct, I think I will, because the X-FI HD USB basically does everything the mixamp would do, but better. Is this correct?
   
  Thanks for all your help.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





sergezell said:


> Ok I think I understand everything. I actually have all of the following products in an amazon shopping cart ready to go. The final question I have is this:
> 
> I know you don't like the Astro Mixamp. The only reason I keep bringing it up is that I value that emulated 7.1 sound it offers for pinpointing where stuff is happening in games. Will I be able to achieve the same effect  with the PC360 + FiiO E11 + X-FI HD USB? If I understand you correct, I think I will, because the X-FI HD USB basically does everything the mixamp would do, but better. Is this correct?
> 
> Thanks for all your help.


 
   
   
  The Mixamp has virtual surround through Dolby Headphone while the X-Fi HD USB has virtual surround through CMSS-3D. They are slightly different approaches to the same purpose, but they both provide relatively similar results. When I say different, I actually mean different, not better or worse. So yes, the X-Fi HD USB is an improvement over the Mixamp.
   
  There is just one thing you should keep in mind. The X-Fi Surround 5.1 is a cheaper USB DAC that has more output flexibility, namely analog 5.1 output, which can then be used to tweak audio output settings along with CMSS-3D, giving the possibility for better game audio. The only issue with this is that the X-Fi Surround 5.1 is of lower quality, and you would have to do hardware modding to it in order for you to reach the X-Fi HD USB's sound quality.
   
  Basically, you won't go wrong with the X-Fi HD USB, and its overall sound quality is superior to all external devices discussed previously.


----------



## Roller

I know you probably had your mind already set, but I had to mention such details, as to make it clear of those finer points that might have gone unnoticed.
   
  From a personal perspective, I wouldn't get the X-Fi Surround 5.1 since I run stereo only gear and I much prefer the higher quality components of the X-Fi HD USB. If you need 5.1 support, then you need to get the X-Fi Surround 5.1, but if you just want headset/headphones/stereo speaker usage, then the X-Fi HD USB is the device to get.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Roller, two more questions:
   
  -Do you actually have the X-Fi HD USB?
  -If so, could you run ALCapsViewer (or Everest/AIDA64, or anything else that lists OpenAL cap bits) to tell me what it can actually do? Creative sure won't mention it in their marketing, and it wouldn't be the first time said marketing has been misleading (like the X-Fi Titanium HD supposedly not having the full 64 MB of X-RAM when it actually does).


----------



## Sergezell

Quote: 





roller said:


> I know you probably had your mind already set, but I had to mention such details, as to make it clear of those finer points that might have gone unnoticed.
> 
> From a personal perspective, I wouldn't get the X-Fi Surround 5.1 since I run stereo only gear and I much prefer the higher quality components of the X-Fi HD USB. If you need 5.1 support, then you need to get the X-Fi Surround 5.1, but if you just want headset/headphones/stereo speaker usage, then the X-Fi HD USB is the device to get.


 
   
  Hmm. I plan on using this set-up strictly for Headphones only. There will never be speakers involved.  What I want to achieve with these headphones is virtual surround sound like the mixamp advertises. From what you said above it sounds like I can achieve virtual surrond sound with the X-Fi HD USB, and the only reason I would need the XFi- Surrond 5.1 is if I was using a  5.1 speaker set up, and needed real 5.1. Is this correct?


----------



## Roller

Only had a borrowed one for a few months. It basically supported everything except EAX 5.0 and X-RAM. The lack of EAX 5.0 support isn't troubling because every single game that has EAX 5.0 support demands Game Mode and since there is no mode switching on USB models, it would be pointless since such models default to Entertainment Mode.
   
  However, I did read of someone who managed to make EAX 5.0 available on the X-Fi HD USB, but mainly as a proof of concept because there is no usability without mode switching.
   
  I'm planning on getting a unit for myself as I'm going to do lenghty recordings, and I'll also update my gaming DAC on the process. Also, initially the X-Fi HD USB didn't have any EQing options of its own but the latest driver package provides an EQ.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





sergezell said:


> Hmm. I plan on using this set-up strictly for Headphones only. There will never be speakers involved.  What I want to achieve with these headphones is virtual surround sound like the mixamp advertises. From what you said above it sounds like I can achieve virtual surrond sound with the X-Fi HD USB, and the only reason I would need the XFi- Surrond 5.1 is if I was using a  5.1 speaker set up, and needed real 5.1. Is this correct?


 
   
   
  Basically, yes. And even if there are 2.0/2.1 speakers involved, it will work just as well.
   
  Another thing, I advise you to first try the PC360 plugged directly to the X-Fi HD USB and playing around, listening to music and games for a few days, and only then adding the E11 to the sound chain. That way you will have a better grasp of how each device plays with each other. What I'm saying is that the X-Fi HD USB already has output with additional amplification and the E11 is just to make sure the PC360's won't feel power lacking.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





sergezell said:


> I want to get a new headset for PC gaming only. Due to my case set up (SLI-cards taking up a huge chunk of space), I cannot fit a sound card into my computer. I have a pretty high end motherboard that has pretty good on-board sound options. My question is:  Is it possible to use an Astro Mixamp Pro for PC-gaming without a sound card?


 
  Your motherboard has 7 slots, how does two SLI graphics card block all 5 other slots?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Your motherboard has 7 slots, how does two SLI graphics card block all 5 other slots?


 
   
   
  He might be using more than two GPUs.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





roller said:


> He might be using more than two GPUs.


 
  If he is using three graphics cards, most likey they are not the double wide cards that take up two slots.
  Even with 2 or 3 double wide graphics cards, the board has two PCI-E X1 slots that can not be blocked by graphics cards.
  So maybe you can talk him into a Titanium HD.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> If he is using three graphics cards, most likey they are not the double wide cards that take up two slots.
> Even with 2 or 3 double wide graphics cards, the board has two PCI-E X1 slots that can not be blocked by graphics cards.
> So maybe you can talk him into a Titanium HD.


 
   
   
  Double height cards are quite standard now, especially for a platform like he has. And if it's a triple height card like high end GPUs often are, running triple or quad SLI will basically prevent any use of the remaining PCIe slots.
   
  But yes, if there's even the slightest chance of having a single PCIe free for use, the X-Fi Titanium HD is the ideal soundcard for him. USB recommendations were done based solely on lack of free PCIe slots.


----------



## HalidePisces

If he's got spare PCIe slots available but blocked, he might be able to try a riser card. It's basically an extension cable for slots.
   
  Another choice would be to hunt down one of the older PCI cards if there are such slots on the board available.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





halidepisces said:


> If he's got spare PCIe slots available but blocked, he might be able to try a riser card. It's basically an extension cable for slots.
> 
> Another choice would be to hunt down one of the older PCI cards if there are such slots on the board available.


 
   
   
  Good suggestion, I didn't remember riser cards, and those shouldn't hurt the card interfacing with the motherboard, considering it's an additional step.
   
  From what I've seen around, the higher end PCI X-Fi models are either out of stock or absurdly overpriced, costing more than twice of what a X-Fi Titanium HD goes for.


----------



## Sabin0786

You guys are right. I didn't realize sound cards could be PCIEx1, since my old one required a PCIex16 slot. I have two PCIEx1 slots above my graphics cards. Looks like I can get an internal sound card. 
   
  Quick question about that: What is the difference between the "X-Fi Titanium HD" and The "X-Fi titanium fatality pro" (http://us.store.creative.com/Creative-Sound-Blaster-XFi-Titanium-Fatal1ty/M/B0018EFGTM.htm)? I ask because I can get the Xi-Fi Titanium Fatality Pro for 99 dollars refurbished, which is a lot cheaper than a new Xi-Fi Titanium HD. 
   
  Also where does the Sound Blaster Recon3D Fatality Professional fall into this? I notice that all 3 of the products I mention are around the same price, so I'm not sure if there any differences worth noting, or if they X-Fi Titanium HD is just the best. 
   
  Edit: Also for some reason it's changed my account name.


----------



## NamelessPFG

The X-Fi Titanium HD has much higher-quality analog outputs, but it only has two analog channels (compared to the other X-Fi Titanium cards' 8 channels). Not a problem if you only use headphones.
   
  The Recon3D cards are to be avoided since they don't actually process DS3D/OAL in hardware, and the software renderer has some issues with the games I've tried. They're also missing other features present on X-Fi cards.
   
  Oh, and I've never heard of any sound cards requiring a PCIe x16 slot, either PCIe x1 or the older PCI interface. What kind of sound card would require that much bandwidth, anyway?


----------



## Evshrug

roller said:


> Well, Skyrim only needed to have Oblivion's audio renderer and would have the possibility of being far more immersive. And why can't you go back to Fallout 3?




Because, besides the DLC and bad karma side of things, I beat the game. I even tracked down most of the unmarked quests, like finding Dashing Dagwood's dead manservant, Argyle. And like I said, I got sick of it before I was quite done anyway, lol. I'm torn if I'm going for 100% in Oblivion, because there are just so many good games to play. And yes, it's totally a shame when something is broken in the name of progress.

About Thief: I really _want_ to play all of them, but the whole silent cutscenes thing bothers me. We'll see if I ever get around to actually playing them, lol. I haven't really had access to the world of PC gaming since playing Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight on my Dad's computer, before he declared it would only be for work from then on. I played a demo of one of the thief games at that time, and it intrigued me.



roller said:


> About getting a new GPU, it's always a sensible choice given that games are getting more and more GPU demanding, despite the PC gaming scene being infected by lousy console ports, which then makes those games look like being work of lazy development (and to an extent they have been), forcing much higher system requirements than such games should have. Just think that even Metro 2033 has relatively odd coding that requires rather significant pixel pushing power, and to be played with maxed settings, it will require an overall enthusiast platform, with high end GPUs being an integral part of that.




Right now I have a NVIDIA GeForce GTS 250 that I got for $70. It's not the most powerful GPU, certainly not the newest, but I ought to get slightly better than console visuals. I mainly compute in the Mac environment by preference, so I'm well-aware of the sadness that is lousy game ports :/



roller said:


> Keep in mind that what you do on a computer will change which GPU you should get, from media decoding, multimonitor support features, 3D, gaming, GPGPU, etc. Currently there isn't a single GPU that outperforms all others in all those tasks, so that's a consideration that has to be done prior to any purchases.




The most important thing I use a computer for is Graphic Design, and some other media fiddle-faddle around that since in general people expect GDs to be capable of anything. I've not really tapped the power of something like Adobe Premier yet (iMovie plus some photoshopping has been sufficient so far), but I might be called upon to do so some day. I know AMD cards have more compute potential, but Adobe products benefit from CUDA acceleration. I built my FrankenMac based on suggestions and enjoy the stability of NVIDIA's drivers, but I haven't had projects that tax my setup yet.
I have the Windows 8 CP for that side of PCs, but I haven't fully transitioned to a windows setup. As a (new) commercial artist, Windows is mostly just a play-space for me, and as a Mac enthusiast, I want to keep windows maintenance monkeying around down to a minimum ^_^


----------



## genclaymore

Also It depends on which headphones your using granted if your using gaming marketed stereo HP's or easy to drive Good headphones then the headphone buffer on the X-FI HD will work, but not if the headphones req some power that the X-Fi HD headphone output Buffer cant provide.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





sabin0786 said:


> You guys are right. I didn't realize sound cards could be PCIEx1, since my old one required a PCIex16 slot. I have two PCIEx1 slots above my graphics cards. Looks like I can get an internal sound card.
> 
> Quick question about that: What is the difference between the "X-Fi Titanium HD" and The "X-Fi titanium fatality pro" (http://us.store.creative.com/Creative-Sound-Blaster-XFi-Titanium-Fatal1ty/M/B0018EFGTM.htm)? I ask because I can get the Xi-Fi Titanium Fatality Pro for 99 dollars refurbished, which is a lot cheaper than a new Xi-Fi Titanium HD.
> 
> ...


 
  Sometime the X-Fi Titanium (non-HD, refurb, basic model) will sell for $45, check the website Techbargins, or eBay for used cards.


----------



## Evshrug

sabin0786 said:


> Edit: Also for some reason it's changed my account name.



Maybe a friend logged in on your computer and forgot to log out? Looking at the account history, it seems that the other posts happened a while ago, and they sound like a different person IMO.

And btw, it was my impression that PC gaming wasn't limited to 7.1 surround, but that you could enable full Binaural sound in the best games? As in, sounds can seem to come from front, back, above, below, whatever; is this right, those of you Windows gamers with more experience?

Also, doesn't Creative's Voice Crystalizer help to cancel out background sound and typing clacks from a microphone, so he could use a clip-on or Antlion Modmic (when those become available again at the end of September) with any headphone and get good results for gaming and Skype?


----------



## Evshrug

purpleangel said:


> Sometime the X-Fi Titanium (non-HD, refurb, basic model) will sell for $45, check the website Techbargins, or eBay for used cards.



*googles Techbargins*
wuuoooOOOOOOOAAAH?! @o@


----------



## Roller

@Sabin0786: The X-Fi Titanium (regular, regardless of which model, except the non X-Fi XtremeAudio) and the X-Fi Titanium HD are entirely different cards, quality wise. If you do have the means to get a X-Fi Titanium HD, don't look at any other card, they simply don't cut it.
  Nothing released after that card, like the Recon3D is worth your money, especially with all the software and hardware features stripped on the new cards.
   
  @Evshrug: Like others have said previously, if you do manage to have a free PCIe slot, you would get much better performance through a X-Fi Titanium HD rather than any of the USB DACs suggested that, while not bad at all, do pale in comparison to a X-Fi Titanium HD.
   
  Have you thought of getting something like a Quadro 2000? I do understand what you mean by CUDA, and that does perform better than the competition's open alternatives at the time being. Although, there are already a couple apps on the latest Adobe suite that switched from hardware accelerating techs.
  Also, I find it curious that you're running a non final Windows OS when you want to keep maintenance monkeying to a minimum 
   
  Creative does have a few features dedicated to improving mic clarity and reducing environment noise, but Crystalizer is for an entirely different use.


----------



## Evshrug

roller said:


> @Evshrug: Like others have said previously, if you do manage to have a free PCIe slot, you would get much better performance through a X-Fi Titanium HD rather than any of the USB DACs suggested that, while not bad at all, do pale in comparison to a X-Fi Titanium HD.
> 
> Have you thought of getting something like a Quadro 2000? I do understand what you mean by CUDA, and that does perform better than the competition's open alternatives at the time being. Although, there are already a couple apps on the latest Adobe suite that switched from hardware accelerating techs.
> Also, I find it curious that you're running a non final Windows OS when you want to keep maintenance monkeying to a minimum
> ...



Crystalizer: I forgot the name of the tech, I'm just posting occasionally while doing some work for my grandfather, using a kinda funny home builder software suite (Punch!) to design a floor plan and exterior for a 12 story building addition. So, I don't have the Recon3D box with me right now ;P

I have thought of the Quadro series, and AMD's fire-something cards, but I'll hold off on that kind of thing unless/until I have to use a 3D modeling program like Maya. Games push the limits more than my work right now, maybe I would enjoy my work more if it was the other way around? Prolly not, haha. Also, I'm sticking with CS5 for as long as possible, I'm actually trying to find full-time employment (recent college grad) with a better paycheck buffer for emergencies before I start maxing out things I consider luxuries 

Running a preview build of Windows... because it's legally free? It has been stable enough so far, and the only thing I've done with it over the Internet was NViDIA drivers and a month of SW:TOR, and if it ever gets a virus or adware I'll happily wipe the disk and start over, LOL! I already bugged Nameless about Win 7 Pro vs Home backwards compatability, I'll probably get an OEM copy once I upgrade my CPU from an i3 to an i5. I think it's kind of funny that you commented on Win8 and not hacking Mac OS X to think I'm on Apple components... guess you know that there are a lot of easy guides for that, and once you're set up the only worry is System Updates.

The Ti HD would indeed be a technically superior piece of hardware, but the Recon3D is nice because it works for Mac too, as well as my Xbox 360


----------



## Roller

Recon3D only brings additional compatibility, but at the very severe cost of underwhelming performance, akin to what XtremeAudio (read, fake X-Fi) cards do.
   
  I thought you were running CS6, that has split accelerated techs, while CS5.x does indeed fully support CUDA. If you truly don't need the work optimized Quadro GPUs, then going with a midrange or high end GPU will yield better results for the money.
   
  If you don't have a Windows license, then I'd suggest you wait a few months and let Windows 8 run wild, as compatibility reports will pop out everywhere. Looking aside from the FUD factory regarding Modern UI, the kernel is quite improved up to a point where that can be a sole reason for recommendations of upgrading Windows 7 systems, nevermind older OSes. Also, UI customization is aplenty, and things like Modern UI bypassing and start menu restoring are easily done already.
   
  Well, the main issue with OSX x86 is setting it up in the first place. After that, it should run without any issues. Updates, however, can be quite a pain.
   
  The X-Fi Titanium HD is on an entirely different league of the Recon3D series. Just so you get an idea of what a poor performer Recon3D is, some onboard audio chips can even outperform it, and onboard audio chips are the worst of the worst.


----------



## Sabin0786

Both amazon and newegg have the X-FI Titanium HD, but the price difference is steep enough that I want to make sure I'm getting the right card before I pull the trigger! Amazon has it for 30 dollars cheaper with free 2 day shipping! Makes me thing I'm looking at the wrong card or something...
   
  Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blaster-Titanium-Internal-SB1270/dp/B0041OUA38
  Newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102033&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA?
   
   
  I've also made the terrible mistake of reading the gaming headphone thread on this site, and now I'm starting to doubt whether I actually the want the PC360 or if I want to go the headphones + clip on mic route. I'm debating the Q701 vs. beyerdynamic 990. Both sound like they hit that sweet spot between immersion (ie: thundering bass for special effects), and pinpoint accuracy.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





sabin0786 said:


> Both amazon and newegg have the X-FI Titanium HD, but the price difference is steep enough that I want to make sure I'm getting the right card before I pull the trigger! Amazon has it for 30 dollars cheaper with free 2 day shipping! Makes me thing I'm looking at the wrong card or something...
> 
> Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blaster-Titanium-Internal-SB1270/dp/B0041OUA38
> Newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102033&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA?


 
   
  That is indeed the correct card on both sites.
   
  I usually go by Amazon pricing since it's generally cheaper than Newegg for the Titanium HD.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





sabin0786 said:


> Both amazon and newegg have the X-FI Titanium HD, but the price difference is steep enough that I want to make sure I'm getting the right card before I pull the trigger! Amazon has it for 30 dollars cheaper with free 2 day shipping! Makes me thing I'm looking at the wrong card or something...
> 
> Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blaster-Titanium-Internal-SB1270/dp/B0041OUA38
> Newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102033&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA?
> ...


 
   
   
  They are the same card. The only thing that isn't specified is the card revision. Different retailers have different prices, so if there's such a discount, it's worth getting it cheaper.
   
  I told you right from the start that headphones plus mic would be a better combo 
   
  If you are free to have louder audio surrounding you, then you should certainly go with the Beyerdynamic DT990 rather than the AKG Q701 IMHO. Better yet (albeit more expensive), get a set of Ultrasone Pro 2900 or Ultrasone HFI-2400, both being rather immersive, high quality and have their signature bass that's present yet doesn't muddle the rest of the frequency range.
   
  About the mic, usually clip on mics are recommended but you can attach higher quality boom mics to headphones and get a better performing headphone+mic combo.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





sabin0786 said:


> Both amazon and newegg have the X-FI Titanium HD, but the price difference is steep enough that I want to make sure I'm getting the right card before I pull the trigger! Amazon has it for 30 dollars cheaper with free 2 day shipping! Makes me thing I'm looking at the wrong card or something...
> 
> Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blaster-Titanium-Internal-SB1270/dp/B0041OUA38
> Newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102033&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA?
> ...


 
  Even better price for the X-Fi Titanium HD, $124.99
  http://www.techbargains.com/news_displayItem.cfm/314893


----------



## Sabin0786

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Even better price for the X-Fi Titanium HD, $124.99
> http://www.techbargains.com/news_displayItem.cfm/314893


 

 Thanks. I bought it here! I also bough the amplifier.  So now it's just time to sit down and make the hardest choice-- the headphone set that will go with them!


----------



## dedemouse

Hi, i want to ask something.
   
  If i want to change the op-amp in my soundcard but while still using an external amplifier, Do the change of op-amp in soundcard will change the sound signature? or any benefit?
   
  Thanks.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





dedemouse said:


> Hi, i want to ask something.
> 
> If i want to change the op-amp in my sound card but while still using an external amplifier, Do the change of op-amp in sound card will change the sound signature? or any benefit?
> 
> Thanks.


 
  I believe one (The buffer op-amp) of the 3 op-amps in the Essence ST affect the audio quality (flavor) of the card's RCA outputs.


----------



## genclaymore

Actually All 3 op-amps effect the Sound signature of the RCA outs on both ST/X and X-FI HD,  The I/Vs on both cards are only used when your using the headphone jack out. I had both STX and a X-FI HD and all 3(STX)  4(X-FI HD) cam be swapped. The X-FI HD has Two buffers so both would need tobe changed with the same op-amp.


----------



## Evshrug

roller said:


> Recon3D only brings additional compatibility, but at the very severe cost of underwhelming performance, akin to what XtremeAudio (read, fake X-Fi) cards do.
> 
> I thought you were running CS6, that has split accelerated techs, while CS5.x does indeed fully support CUDA. If you truly don't need the work optimized Quadro GPUs, then going with a midrange or high end GPU will yield better results for the money.
> 
> ...




Ouch. OOOH Ouch! Ok, I haven't had much experience with PC audio beyond the PowerBook & MacBook Pro on board sound before this, and I was pleased with the Recon3D beyond what seems like random days where it decides to produce harsh treble. But Nameless basically said "Eh...", Mad Lust Envy heard it (same unit) and paraphrased is saying "better than nothing, but only 75% of Dolby Headphone," and you... I don't think you've actually listened to it, but you say "Like a fake, below even an average performer." The only thing keeping me wondering if the enthusiast bias is overplaying the difference is that I'm the only one who I know of who is willing to play with the driver software, and that I'd rather have a "good enough" system to live with rather than suffering from perpetual upgradeitis while on a new-career income. 

That's not to invalidate your opinions and the facts you have found through research, in fact I greatly respect that everyone not only makes that effort but also shares the fruits of that labor (this hobby ain't cheap!). I'm just trying to find the mid-fi balance, not the best kit but the best kit to price ratio. For example, I wouldn't buy a $300 GPU for gaming (right now at least), I know that a $200 card will get more than decent performance while performing at what $300 would have got you last year, just like I can't honestly say I can make full use of a Quadro 2000 right now.

So, I'm not married to the Recon3D, in fact I almost got a Mixamp or DSS for the Xbox, or just fixed my Mac audio and stuck with the receiver I already have. I could just give up on Mac gaming and headphones, but that would hurt. So, I don't know.

Right now I need to find cheap speakers or something to replace the cheap wal-mart CD boombox my girlfriend uses to teach Zumba (birthday present), more than anything.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Ouch. OOOH Ouch! Ok, I haven't had much experience with PC audio beyond the PowerBook & MacBook Pro on board sound before this, and I was pleased with the Recon3D beyond what seems like random days where it decides to produce harsh treble. But Nameless basically said "Eh...", Mad Lust Envy heard it (same unit) and paraphrased is saying "better than nothing, but only 75% of Dolby Headphone," and you... I don't think you've actually listened to it, but you say "Like a fake, below even an average performer." The only thing keeping me wondering if the enthusiast bias is overplaying the difference is that I'm the only one who I know of who is willing to play with the driver software, and that I'd rather have a "good enough" system to live with rather than suffering from perpetual upgradeitis while on a new-career income.
> That's not to invalidate your opinions and the facts you have found through research, in fact I greatly respect that everyone not only makes that effort but also shares the fruits of that labor (this hobby ain't cheap!). I'm just trying to find the mid-fi balance, not the best kit but the best kit to price ratio. For example, I wouldn't buy a $300 GPU for gaming (right now at least), I know that a $200 card will get more than decent performance while performing at what $300 would have got you last year, just like I can't honestly say I can make full use of a Quadro 2000 right now.
> So, I'm not married to the Recon3D, in fact I almost got a Mixamp or DSS for the Xbox, or just fixed my Mac audio and stuck with the receiver I already have. I could just give up on Mac gaming and headphones, but that would hurt. So, I don't know.
> Right now I need to find cheap speakers or something to replace the cheap wal-mart CD boombox my girlfriend uses to teach Zumba (birthday present), more than anything.


 
   
   
  First of all, Dolby Headphone isn't superior to CMSS-3D at all and IMHO Dolby Headphone is far more fatigating than CMSS-3D. Now, the main audible differences between DH and CMSS-3D is that DH enhances bass while CMSS-3D enhances treble, and while there are other differences, those are the most noticeable.
   
  Basically, I find that non codec based hardware performs far better, and I did have the chance of listening to a unit at a store, therefore experience was limited, but it certainly didn't wow me at all.
   
  Now, what you have to keep in mind is that when getting a card like the X-Fi Titanium HD, you simply won't have any need to upgrade anytime soon (read, as in before a decade goes by), given that card is the pinnacle of gaming audio, with everything released afterwards performing poorly in comparison to it and even previous PCI and PCIe X-Fi generation cards, as well as being one of the best consumer soundcards, making it perfectly suitable for music and movies as well.
  If you're thinking about pricing, you should think that DACs can cost up to several thousand dollars, and while $150 would get you a reasonable above entry external DAC, those same $150 can get you a far better performing internal unit that also has more features (should you choose to use them).
   
  So basically, Recon3D/Mixamp/DSS are all bottom of the electronics barrel, and even a base X-Fi Titanium (non-HD model) that costs around $50 would outperform all those toys that happen to cost far more with less sonic performance.
   
  Well, going the Quadro route means one already knows exactly what he needs, not so much for a beginner's path, otherwise it's wasted money along with untapped potential.


----------



## Phos

The FR with CMSS 3D is still pretty flat.  I tried it out with a sinewave generator.  It just sounds processed.


----------



## Roller

Good point. I was merely talking about perceived differences, though.


----------



## Evshrug

Can an X-Fi Ti [HD] accept optical in from a console? If I had continued down the programming path instead of pursuing arts, I might be considering a Mac-driver workaround. I still may stick with the Recon3D for now, cuz Mac and Xbox are my main platforms. I was also unimpressed with the store demo of the DSS2, but store demos are hardly optimal testing grounds. I won't know till I try, but I'm wondering if even a proper X-Fi card isn't a world better.

All this is so subjective too... I don't even know how great my hearing is, or anyone else's here.
Ps I never mentioned, but I enjoy your signature quote.


----------



## Roller

Take a look over this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/608873/possible-to-connect-my-ps3-to-my-soundcard-and-use-my-headphones
   
  Above all, you ought to ask yourself whether you want to pursuit higher quality audio or not, as that can be a rather expensive path to follow and if you're not certain whether you want to pursuit it, then don't go overboard. But then again, people with untrained ears won't notice significant improvements when going from low quality devices like onboard audio chips to dedicated soundcards or DACs, but they always know when they downgrade. It's actually quite amusing as to how the brain works in that way.
   
  Unlike GPUs that are out of date in a matter of short years and something even less than that, DACs and soundcards will last you as long as they are physically able to, and you won't feel SQ lacking. A good example is a $300 GPU that in 3 years will only be able to play modern games of the time at medium to low settings, low resolution and console-like frame rates, while a $200 soundcard/DAC will play audio just as well in the same timespan as when you first got it.
   
  And thanks  It was a comment made by the girlfriend of another Head-Fier, I felt it was interesting. But that quote has already quite some time, I ought to set something new.


----------



## Disharmonic

So i'm thinking of picking up a X-Fi Titanium pci-e(non-HD) and using spdif out to connect to my dac/amp(emu 0404 usb or whatever i upgrade to later) in order to get positional audio in games without sacrificing any sound quality. Will the card actually apply the necessary effects when using the opt-out/coax-out instead of the headphone plug? In games that don't support OpenAL/EAX5 would you say CMSS-3D in (5.1/7.1) mode is still superior to both Dolby Headphone and GX 2.5 in Asus cards? Do the Asus DG make a credible alternative for my setup?
  Thanks


----------



## genclaymore

Yes the card will still apply the gaming features Thur Digital out Including CMSS3D headphones. You don't have to be using analog to get it applied. Just remember to disable any game features when you get ready to listen to music. Also if you do use CMSS3D headphone, I sure it was mention some where in this thread. But setting the windows speakers to 5.1 and using Headphones in the creative game mode panel with CMSS3D headphone on instead of just Stereo in the windows speakers settings work really well.  As the Windows speakers settings go Thur the sound card's DSP which does the CMSS3D headphone adjustments before going out of Digital out to your Dac amp.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





disharmonic said:


> So i'm thinking of picking up a X-Fi Titanium pci-e(non-HD) and using spdif out to connect to my dac/amp(emu 0404 usb or whatever i upgrade to later) in order to get positional audio in games without sacrificing any sound quality. Will the card actually apply the necessary effects when using the opt-out/coax-out instead of the headphone plug? In games that don't support OpenAL/EAX5 would you say CMSS-3D in (5.1/7.1) mode is still superior to both Dolby Headphone and GX 2.5 in Asus cards? Do the Asus DG make a credible alternative for my setup?
> Thanks


 
   
   
  IIRC, processing is sent along optical, as long as it's set as the exclusive output method.
   
  EDIT: Ok, it's quite redundant as running S/PDIF already makes it exclusive.
   
  Asus GX feature is a simple software emulation that does nothing if the game doesn't have any features above software rendering. For games that do have hardware renderers, Asus GX will enable some additional options but without the added quality since Asus hardware lacks both the DSPs that games target as well as features like voice count, positional algorithms and any EAX support beyond EAX 2.
  The thing you have to keep in mind is that CMSS-3D and DH are both surround virtualization techs that work in slightly different ways, and due to slightly different yet similar approaches, they end up being dependent on users own preferences, and despite there not being any empirical evidence of significant advantages of one over the other, the fact is that DH was mainly designed for movies and music (on that order) while CMSS-3D was designed from scratch to cater games, music and movies.
   
  A cost effective setup is to get a base X-Fi Titanium like you said, and routing the audio through either S/PDIF or simply doing it internally through the What U Hear feature to whatever device you see fit, whether it is another internal soundcard or an external DAC.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





disharmonic said:


> So i'm thinking of picking up a X-Fi Titanium pci-e(non-HD) and using spdif out to connect to my dac/amp(emu 0404 usb or whatever i upgrade to later) in order to get positional audio in games without sacrificing any sound quality. Will the card actually apply the necessary effects when using the opt-out/coax-out instead of the headphone plug? In games that don't support OpenAL/EAX5 would you say CMSS-3D in (5.1/7.1) mode is still superior to both Dolby Headphone and GX 2.5 in Asus cards? Do the Asus DG make a credible alternative for my setup?
> Thanks


 
   
  Yes, it'll pass through all effects through S/PDIF. I've verified it myself. Just make sure to check "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" in the card's control panel if you want to hear anything.
   
  For games with pre-mixed 5.1/7.1, I wouldn't say that CMSS-3D Headphone is significantly better or worse than Dolby Headphone, just different. Both will give you the positional cues you're looking for, but CMSS-3D tends to emphasize treble while DH adds a bit more bass.


----------



## genclaymore

I think the X-Fi HD only has that option to pay Stereo mix using Digital output. Because no other X-FI chip-set card I used to own have that option not even the Old X-Fi Xtreme gamer. I just needed to keep the speakers as the Default speakers to get any sound out of Digital when I gaming. As for dolby headphone and cmss3d it usually depends on what the person prefer.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> I think the X-Fi HD only has that option to pay Stereo mix using Digital output. Because no other X-FI chip-set card I used to own have that option not even the Old X-Fi Xtreme gamer. I just needed to keep the speakers as the Default speakers to get any sound out of Digital when I gaming. As for dolby headphone and cmss3d it usually depends on what the person prefer.


 
   
  You're not talking about audio routing from a Creative card to a DAC, are you? Because if you are, that's been available since before the Live! cards.


----------



## genclaymore

Unless the play stereo mix is the same thing as that panel I think your talking about that was its own install if i recall right And they just got it set up differently on the X-Fi HD.  But what i was saying in my post, that the Digital out passthru device in windows vista/7 that you can make the default output. Atleast for me doesn't work at all. Unless it trying to send DTS and Dolby Digital signals to my Dac amp that I had plugged into it thru Digital.  I know I do have to keep the speakers as the default device or I get low volume in my games with the passthru being set as the default. Unless it just a driver issue as it happens to me on both the X-Fi and the DG.


----------



## Roller

Oh wait, you were talking about Digital Out, so nevermind, I thought you were talking about What U Hear (not so good name for Stereo Mix).
   
  Out of curiosity, which drivers are you using on both the X-Fi and the DG?


----------



## genclaymore

I was using Pax drivers for the X-FI and with the DG I using UniXonar drivers.


----------



## Roller

What do you use your DG for? UniXonar drivers do have disabled features when compared to stock drivers, which might not be relevant to you if you keep to music and movies (and software audio renderer games).
   
  About PAX, I've been going back and forth for years now, and while they can be interesting up to the point I can do situational recommendations, I still hold enough value on stock drivers to use on many systems, considering they display little to no issues, driver wise. There have been quite noticeable developments for USB units, but due to several unresolved issues on multiple driver revisions that me and the developer discussed, I ended up keeping stock drivers for USB units. That situation might change with the X-Fi HD USB, though.


----------



## genclaymore

The Uni Xonar drivers has 4 options before you actually install them, So you can install them in normal which doesn't disable any thing. Low DPC which disable the asus panel and something else, C-media panel and C-media panel /w GX enabled.  I mainly use the DG as  Transport to my NFB-12 and for the Dolby headphone when I gaming. I know I will place the X-FI XG back in if asus doesn't release any windows 8 drivers, by the time windows 8 comes out. As right now I had the X-Fi XG in when I was using windows 8 beta, As when you use the existing asus/uni drivers in windows 8 beta you get no asus or c-media panel. The X-FI XG is just in the closet as a backup transport device in-case something happens to the DG. If it wasn't for me wanting the Gaming feature's on either card I would just plug my NFB-12 into my comp thru usb.


----------



## Roller

Hum, I thought C-Media panel didn't have GX working.
   
  It's unlikely that Asus won't release Windows 8 drivers, they tend to have a respectable track record in that regard, especially when considering that your soundcard isn't legacy.
   
  When you said Dolby Headphone for gaming, I remembered people do like that kind of virtual surround techs, as when I mentioned gaming, I was merely talking about DS3D and OpenAL support.


----------



## genclaymore

Yea I fiqure you meant DS3D and openAL support, I normally would have the X-Fi in just for that. But I don't have many games installed that are OpenAL. Then a out of a bunch a games that installed only a couple of them are DS3D, but I usually enable GX mode for them or use Alchemy when the X-Fi card is installed. Lately I haven't been caring about openAL  since they seem to keep using Xaudio2 in alot of newer games for some odd reason. I gues it just me but I don't like the way Xaudio2 sound and what it does to the game audio. I much rather they used FmodEX if they had to use something else then OpenAL.


----------



## Roller

Yeah, I was talking about audio renderers and their support.
   
  XAudio2 is absolutely awful, literally one of the worst audio renderers to have hit the market.
   
  I don't care much for FMOD either, but there are two custom versions, one with DS3D extensions and the other with OpenAL extensions.
   
  The thing about Asus GX mode is that it makes their cards perform on a level that's between Live! and 1st gen Audigy cards, while a real X-Fi like yours is always a much better option for games. It seems you use virtual surround, so do you prefer DH over CMSS-3D, and why?


----------



## genclaymore

I agree and GX had it good uses years ago, But now i don't use it unless I have to. I mainly use Virtual Surround for just the above and below sounds as I don't have issues with hearing my surroundings because of the good sound positional and image of the headphones i using.I generally use either one depending on what card is installed in my comp. But I do notice Dolby headphone working really nice for open back headphones that has big sound stages,but depending on which DH mode you are using. I generally use Mode 1 because its Ref and doesn't add any echo. While I use DH2 for closed back headphones. But I never will forget the great experience I had with a game while  Dolby headphone Mode 1 with the STX and AKG K702 combo I used to have a couple of years ago. It worked really well with those headphones. I remember playing a lot of Left4 Dead 2 with them. Which where i remember my good experience with Dolby headphone.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Curiosity got the better of me, and thus I bought an X-Fi Go! (SB1100) on the cheap after Roller's constant ravings about it. I'll put it to the test whenever it arrives.
   
  It's not to be confused with the X-Fi Go! Pro (SB1290), which Roller hates. The obvious differences are that it lacks the 1 GB storage of the SB1100, claims to support EAX 5 instead of just EAX 4 (but we all know how that turned out with the Recon3D), and has all those "THX TruStudio" effects.
   
  What isn't as obvious to me yet would be the actual hardware differences in terms of sample rate support, performance, etc.


----------



## Roller

I'm surprised 
   
  For a moment I thought you were talking about a different card, namely the SB1090, which is the less audiophile and more multichannel/digital format supported card.
   
  And again, don't go expecting reference sound of any kind, but it works for a quick fix, and even moreso when sending its processing to an external DAC.
   
  The X-Fi Go! has sample rates and bit depths from 16/44.1 to 24/48 while the X-Fi Go! Pro has 16/44.1 and 24/44.1, IIRC. The regular model works just fine while I haven't yet heard of a recall for the Pro units that had noticeable hiss on any settings.
   
  In any case, I'm curious about your findings. Out of curiosity, are you going to compare it with what other audio hardware?


----------



## NamelessPFG

The short list would be the Recon3D USB and the X-Fi Titanium HD Rev. C.
   
  As you know, I'm rather disappointed by the former for PC gaming, so I'm wondering if the X-Fi Go! will work out a bit better for cases where internal X-Fi cards with the EMU20K1/20K2 aren't an option. I still have this gut feeling that it's still using the software OpenAL renderer that doesn't play nicely with certain games, though.
   
  I may eventually add the Xonar U3 to the list of cheap USB audio devices to review, since I'm also curious as to how well DS3DGX actually works compared to Creative's ALchemy + software OpenAL approach.
   
  I also admit that I was tempted by the X-Fi Surround SB1090, but then I heard complaints about that not having 44.1 KHz support.
   
  In other news, I'm on the verge of getting some Win9x-era PC parts to build a retrogaming PC around, in no small part because Aureal Vortex-based cards only have decent drivers under Win9x. I want to know what all that A3D hype was all about; I suspect that a lot of it is because they were using binaural HRTF mixing long before everyone else was, and stuff like wavetracing was icing on the cake.


----------



## Roller

While in theory there shouldn't be differences between Recon3D USB and X-Fi Go! cards, I do find the latter a bit more distinct. Obviously that neither holds a candle to the X-Fi Titanium HD, regardless of revision.
   
  Now, the X-Fi Go! does have software OpenAL just like other USB cards and any internal soundcard other than non-Value Audigy and X-Fi cards that do have EMU20K1/EMU20K2, but it's mainly about the implementation that seems more solid on the X-Fi Go!. Also, do note that I'm running a newer wrapper than the latest available for the card, so that might also play a part in that.
  The thing is, software OpenAL as well as X-Fi cards that lack mode switching simply can't access certain advanced audio features on some games, such as X-Fi mode on Battlefield games, hardware audio on Race Driver Grid, etc.
   
  Quite a good idea. I've been tempted to assemble again a legacy PC with an AWE32, this being aside A3D and the first HW HRTF solutions that the card also supported.


----------



## Dead Ghost

Does anyone knows if the the audio on the newer video cards support DDL/DTS Connect through HDMI? For PC games and movies, i want to use the GPU audio through HDMI, to my LCD TV, and then use the optical output of the TV to send the signal to a Mixamp like device, for Dolby Headphone effects. Would this work?


----------



## genclaymore

Do you mean being able to Encode the signal into DTS or DD live, if so then no. Video card Audio chip do not have the feature for that.  The only sound card off the top of my head that does let you encode DDL and DTS Connect thru HDMI is HDAV 1.3 Slim/HDAV1.3 classic, and Auzentech X-FI HDMI.Did you meant something else incase I read your question wrong.


----------



## Dead Ghost

Hmmm...Maybe it's not needed? The encoding, i mean. I've read somewhere that the reason DDL and DTS encoding is done is because S/PDIF doesn't have the required bandwidth. But HDMI has...
   
  GPU's audio -> (HDMI) -> TV -> (TOSlink output) -> MixAmp -> headphones (Dolby Headphone) ?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Pretty much. They think that if you're using the HDMI audio path, you're sending the signal to a DAC with HDMI input. They don't expect S/PDIF downconversions and the bandwidth limitations that brings.
   
  Unfortunately, the only headphone surround DSP I know of that has an HDMI input is the Smyth Realiser A8, and that's around $3,000. Sorry about your wallet.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





dead ghost said:


> Does anyone knows if the the audio on the newer video cards support DDL/DTS Connect through HDMI? For PC games and movies, i want to use the GPU audio through HDMI, to my LCD TV, and then use the optical output of the TV to send the signal to a Mixamp like device, for Dolby Headphone effects. Would this work?


 
  As HDMI can pass 8-channels (7.1) of PCM (uncompressed) audio, there is no real reason for using audio compression (DDL) with HDMI.
  Not even sure if your TVs can output 5.1 compressed audio, the TV might only output 2-channel PCM thru the optical output.
  Just get an Asus Xonar DG or DGX sound card for your computer, the DG(X) will output Dolby Headphone surround sound, to headphones, just like the Mix-amp.
  So no need to output audio from the TV or have to use the Mix-amp.
  Just switch the audio output (Windows control panel>Sound>Playback) from the Xonar DG(X) to the HMDI out when you want to send audio to the TV, from the computer.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roller said:


> While in theory there shouldn't be differences between Recon3D USB and X-Fi Go! cards, I do find the latter a bit more distinct. Obviously that neither holds a candle to the X-Fi Titanium HD, regardless of revision.
> 
> Now, the X-Fi Go! does have software OpenAL just like other USB cards and any internal soundcard other than non-Value Audigy and X-Fi cards that do have EMU20K1/EMU20K2, but it's mainly about the implementation that seems more solid on the X-Fi Go!. Also, do note that I'm running a newer wrapper than the latest available for the card, so that might also play a part in that.
> The thing is, software OpenAL as well as X-Fi cards that lack mode switching simply can't access certain advanced audio features on some games, such as X-Fi mode on Battlefield games, hardware audio on Race Driver Grid, etc.
> ...


 
   
  What I want to know is if it's possible to have Thief 1/2 or System Shock 2 NOT screw up audio-wise when using ALchemy with any sort of software OpenAL renderer. The Realtek X-Fi MB driver packages floating around fail that test. So does the Recon3D USB. Can the X-Fi Go! fare any better? Only time will tell.
   
  Unfortunately, I just got outbid on my Win9x build parts. This sets my Win9x gaming computer project back a bit (I want a Pentium III-S Tualatin-compatible board with ISA slots for old sound cards like my AWE64 Gold while having enough CPU muscle to manhandle later '90s releases like Unreal Tournament), and for some reason, my old BP6 board's not starting up like it should, so I can't use that for the build. (And even if I could, Win9x can't use more than one CPU, and a Celeron 533 at stock speeds is pretty damned slow for later 1990s releases.)


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> What I want to know is if it's possible to have Thief 1/2 or System Shock 2 NOT screw up audio-wise when using ALchemy with any sort of software OpenAL renderer. The Realtek X-Fi MB driver packages floating around fail that test. So does the Recon3D USB. Can the X-Fi Go! fare any better? Only time will tell.
> 
> Unfortunately, I just got outbid on my Win9x build parts. This sets my Win9x gaming computer project back a bit (I want a Pentium III-S Tualatin-compatible board with ISA slots for old sound cards like my AWE64 Gold while having enough CPU muscle to manhandle later '90s releases like Unreal Tournament), and for some reason, my old BP6 board's not starting up like it should, so I can't use that for the build. (And even if I could, Win9x can't use more than one CPU, and a Celeron 533 at stock speeds is pretty damned slow for later 1990s releases.)


 
   
   
  Well, what GPU are you planning on using for that setup? If you use at least a midrange GPU from that hardware generation along with at least a Pentium III running at 650MHz and more than 256MB of RAM, you will have high enough specs to play games at reasonable fps.
   
  When you get your X-Fi Go! let me know and I'll send you a few updated components that might improve your experience. Also, tweaking buffers might be needed as some titles are stingy about that.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roller said:


> Well, what GPU are you planning on using for that setup? If you use at least a midrange GPU from that hardware generation along with at least a Pentium III running at 650MHz and more than 256MB of RAM, you will have high enough specs to play games at reasonable fps.
> 
> When you get your X-Fi Go! let me know and I'll send you a few updated components that might improve your experience. Also, tweaking buffers might be needed as some titles are stingy about that.


 
   
  For graphics cards? One of the following, depending on compatibility and features, since they're what I have on hand:
   
  -3dfx Voodoo5 5500 AGP (T-Buffer effects, Glide support)
  -ATI All-in-Wonder Radeon 8500 128 MB (hardware TRUFORM tessellation, HT&L, Shader Model 1.4, SD video capture)
  -STB Voodoo2 12 MB (in case I need Glide 1.x support for early games like MechWarrior 2: 31st Century Combat's Glide OEM version which don't run on the Voodoo5 natively)
   
  As for sound cards, I'll definitely be using a Turtle Beach Montego II with the Aureal Vortex2 chipset. I may decide to add my Creative SB AWE64 Gold to that if DOS games have stuff missing on the Montego II's SB emulation.
   
  Also note that "reasonable FPS" means "steady 60 FPS" to me, which the BP6 + Radeon 8500 sure couldn't pull off with Unreal Tournament even at 640x480. Quake III Arena fared a bit better due to support for multiple CPUs/cores and HT&L, but I don't like that game as much.
   
  Those are about as demanding as they get for what I'd run on such a computer, though...most of the other games that tend to act up on newer computers would likely run fine. I'd just have to do some more testing.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> For graphics cards? One of the following, depending on compatibility and features, since they're what I have on hand:
> 
> -3dfx Voodoo5 5500 AGP (T-Buffer effects, Glide support)
> -ATI All-in-Wonder Radeon 8500 128 MB (hardware TRUFORM tessellation, HT&L, Shader Model 1.4, SD video capture)
> ...


 
   
   
  I wholeheartedly agree on 60 FPS. Looking purely at specs, that Radeon 8500 is the better option. Regarding Glide, it's actually something that has been emulated VERY well, so you might want to look into that as there are multiple ways of running it on both DOS and Windows alike.
   
  Unreal Tournament 99 shouldn't be that complicated to run at steady 60 FPS with at least medium settings and resolutions higher than 800x600 on that hardware. But in the event you want to be perfectly sure about frame rates, you might want to get something like a used Geforce 4 Ti 4200/4600 or even a Geforce FX 5700/5900.
   
  An alternative to building a legacy PC is to use a Pentium 4 platform that predates PCIe, as that's the highest performing system with a modicum of compatibility with legacy OSes and respective hardware, including ISA support. Aiming a bit higher than Pentium III systems (including Tualatin) and going for shorter pipeline Pentium 4 versions will enable you very good results.
   
  One thing you haven't mentioned is the monitor being used. I sure hope you're not planning on running anything non-CRT.


----------



## NamelessPFG

If I was going that far with the graphics card, I'd use my ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128 MB instead. Besides, I'm a bit more concerned about compatibility with pre-UT stuff, to be frank. My more modern systems will manhandle anything UnrealEngine1-based, especially my main machine with DX10 support.
   
  There's plenty of Glide wrappers available, and dgVoodoo works surprisingly well with MW2:31stCC's Glide OEM edition. However, I don't know if any of them emulate the V5's T-Buffer effects, generally used for motion blur and things like that. I recall Serious Sam TFE/TSE and Grand Theft Auto III supporting them, along with one particular version of Quake III Arena.
   
  Pentium 4/NetBurst...the thought of that just makes me cringe. Besides, I have a setup with an Athlon XP 3200+, a GeForce 6800 Ultra, and an X-Fi Prelude that I use for XP-era stuff, and I have a feeling that one's too modern for Windows 98 SE.
   
  Don't worry about the monitor; it's a Sun GDM-5410, a 21" FD Trinitron G1 that can do 1600x1200 at 95 Hz and lower resolutions up to 160 Hz. Admitted, I need to sort out the green bias problem it had since before I got it, but it works alright. (I'm half-tempted to use my Sony GDM-FW900 instead, but I'll keep that one to my main desktop since that's the one running games that actually make good use of widescreen resolutions.)


----------



## Roller

You're perfectly fine with playing older games with a Radeon 9800 Pro, the issues arise with the following generation (such as X800 cards) as well as Geforce 6 series onwards due to several factors, including lack of palletized texture support.
   
  AMD's equivalent to Pentium 4 platforms works just as well, and just like the GPU situation I mentioned above, the same happens with CPUs newer than these generations.
   
  With the specs you mentioned of all that hardware, I feel you would get a close to ideal machine with that Athlon XP 3200+, the Radeon 9800 Pro, then installing the AWE64 Gold, the Turtle Beach Montego II and the X-Fi Prelude. Dual boot that machine with Windows 98SE and Windows XP, but don't install the Prelude drivers on Windows 98SE due to a forced incompatibility with WDM driver architecture, install it only on Windows XP.
   
  Ah, so you're well equipped in terms of monitors, so along with the above specs recommended, you should be perfectly capable of playing all Windows 98SE games as well as Windows XP games. You won't need a DOS emulator since dual booting Win98SE and WinXP will provide you with a real command prompt rather than a terminal (on Win98SE side, of course).


----------



## NamelessPFG

The XP 3200+ machine is running on an Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe. No ISA slots on that board, so the AWE64 Gold won't fit in the first place.
   
  I put the Montego II in there...and then found out how dreadful the Aureal Vortex driver situation was under XP. A3D seemed to work, but EAX was out of the question entirely. I also have an SB Live! Value, but the stock Creative drivers didn't have much to offer, and the kX Project drivers didn't have working EAX. (It's actually why I bought an X-Fi Forte that I eventually traded for the Titanium HD; I wanted to move the X-Fi Prelude to that system.)
   
  I also didn't mention that I have 2 GB of DDR-400 running in that system. Win98SE tends to act up if you have more than 512 MB installed. Needless to say, I keep it around as an XP gaming system for titles dating around 1999 to 2005, because I really don't want to cripple its XP capability by using less RAM and also downgrading to the Radeon 9800 Pro. (I'd also lose the ability to use these X3D/eDimensional/ELSA Revelator shutterglasses I have if I did away with the NVIDIA card.)
   
  Ultimately, it just seems like it's better to keep my Win9x and my XP systems distinct.


----------



## Roller

It does seem like you have some hardware limitations that prevent you from assembling the system. I find it odd that the board doesn't support ISA, it's a shame.
   
  I still think that it would be a better option to go with Netburst rather than Tualatin, as 2.0GHz models outperform previous models as well as previous generations for quite a bit.
   
  In any case, you could always artificially cap system memory available for each OS, but in the end it just might be better to go with separate systems indeed.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Boards of that era NOT having ISA slots honestly doesn't surprise me. Intel started phasing them out with their i8**-series Pentium III chipsets that succeeded their 440BX chipset from the Pentium II days, and the only Pentium III-compatible boards with ISA slots are all based on VIA chipsets.
   
  Chances are NVIDIA never supported ISA with their nForce2 chipset, which is what the A7N8X-E and most other top-of-the-line Socket A boards use.
   
  My impression of Pentium 4/NetBurst is that it performs WORSE clock-for-clock than a typical Pentium III, but that could have just been the earliest Willamette CPUs. Maybe Northwood started to improve things, while Prescott just heated up the place. Only thing is, if it's hard enough to find Pentium III boards with ISA slots, where am I going to find a P4 board with them, especially given that the P4 line had a lot of socket changes? And on top of that, would these P4 chipsets with ISA slots play nicely with Windows 98 SE in the first place?


----------



## Roller

Well, I never mentioned Intel chipsets alone. And there were plenty of hybrid boards that supported a mix of SDR and DDR RAM, a mix of AGP and PCIe buses, etc.
   
  The per clock performance you mention only applies to Willamette CPUs, Northwood changed that, with Prescott being good intentioned but falling flat due to bad design changes.
   
  Basically you should look for boards that are compatible with the lowest Northwood CPUs. What can give you headaches is the PCI compatibility, ISA curiously tends to be more compatible, despite the rather small hardware time frame, namely between Willamette and Prescott.
   
  Could you get a different board for your Athlon XP?


----------



## Dead Ghost

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> As HDMI can pass 8-channels (7.1) of PCM (uncompressed) audio, there is no real reason for using audio compression (DDL) with HDMI.
> Not even sure if your TVs can output 5.1 compressed audio, the TV might only output 2-channel PCM thru the optical output.
> Just get an Asus Xonar DG or DGX sound card for your computer, the DG(X) will output Dolby Headphone surround sound, to headphones, just like the Mix-amp.
> So no need to output audio from the TV or have to use the Mix-amp.
> Just switch the audio output (Windows control panel>Sound>Playback) from the Xonar DG(X) to the HMDI out when you want to send audio to the TV, from the computer.


 
  I'm using a gaming mini ITX built, with no room for a dedicated sound card. The onboard sound is Realtek ALC898, which Asus says it supports DTS Connect, but no mention of DDL. On the other hand, the Realtek specs for ALC898 says it supports both formats, DTSc and DDL, but it depends on the mobo maker to implement it (i.e. pay for licenses).
   
  And besides, i also have a console, and something like Mixamp would help me use Dolby Headphone for it too. Most probably i won't get the Mixamp, and go for something like the Audio Technica DWL3300 system and use my own headphones. But i still need DDL & DTSc on the source, in order to work correctly. 
   
  About the TV, do you mean the TV should have DDL encoding for the optical output?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





dead ghost said:


> I'm using a gaming mini ITX built, with no room for a dedicated sound card. The onboard sound is Realtek ALC898, which Asus says it supports DTS Connect, but no mention of DDL. On the other hand, the Realtek specs for ALC898 says it supports both formats, DTSc and DDL, but it depends on the mobo maker to implement it (i.e. pay for licenses).
> 
> And besides, i also have a console, and something like Mixamp would help me use Dolby Headphone for it too. Most probably i won't get the Mixamp, and go for something like the Audio Technica DWL3300 system and use my own headphones. But i still need DDL & DTSc on the source, in order to work correctly.
> 
> About the TV, do you mean the TV should have DDL encoding for the optical output?


 
  It's not something I've looked into, but I would be surprised if the TV came with DDL for the optical output.
  It's might be able to have DDL pass thru the TV, optical in optical out, but the TV itself would not be able to compress audio (DDL) on it's own.


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> Boards of that era NOT having ISA slots honestly doesn't surprise me. Intel started phasing them out with their i8**-series Pentium III chipsets that succeeded their 440BX chipset from the Pentium II days, and the only Pentium III-compatible boards with ISA slots are all based on VIA chipsets.
> 
> Chances are NVIDIA never supported ISA with their nForce2 chipset, which is what the A7N8X-E and most other top-of-the-line Socket A boards use.
> 
> My impression of Pentium 4/NetBurst is that it performs WORSE clock-for-clock than a typical Pentium III, but that could have just been the earliest Willamette CPUs. Maybe Northwood started to improve things, while Prescott just heated up the place. Only thing is, if it's hard enough to find Pentium III boards with ISA slots, where am I going to find a P4 board with them, especially given that the P4 line had a lot of socket changes? And on top of that, would these P4 chipsets with ISA slots play nicely with Windows 98 SE in the first place?



Man, if only you had been talking about this last week... I just dropped off our Win98 era desktop off at Best Buy for recycling. I think it had a Pentium III as well, I would've been happy to open it up and see if it had what you needed (though adding a discreet graphics card and sound card would've been needed upgrades).


----------



## NamelessPFG

Just got the X-Fi Go! SB1100 today.
   
  As expected, it's a very basic device.
   
  -Without drivers, it only supports 48 KHz in 16-bit and 24-bit flavors. With them, however, it does support 44.1 KHz as well, at both bit depths. That's more than I can say for the Recon3D USB.
  -It doesn't come with a driver CD; instead, the drivers are pre-loaded on the internal 1 GB of memory. Too bad that not too long after use, when I connected it to a VM with the write lock off, that internal memory corrupted itself before I thought to back up the drivers...at least it seems to be stable after a reformat.
  -Software OpenAL, as expected. 64 voices, EAX 4. Haven't tested it with Thief 1/2 yet, though.
  -Software CMSS-3D Headphone in place of the newer THX TruStudio software suite. It works almost as well as the hardware implementation, at least for Unreal Tournament.
  -Even with the drivers installed, it presents itself as only a stereo device. Not good for games with software audio...
  -Surprisingly, it also came with earbuds with an in-line microphone. I might test those later, just for the heck of it.
   
  Before I can progress further, though, I'll need to ask Roller for whatever drivers and software he uses with his...


----------



## Evshrug

FYI Newegg has the refurb X-Fi Titanium on sale for $40 until 9/27


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> FYI Newegg has the refurb X-Fi Titanium on sale for $40 until 9/27


 
   
Good catch! Grab it while it's hot, people! (It still costs $2.99 for shipping, however, making it almost $43 in the end.)
   
  In other PC gaming audio news, I got to test Aureal A3D for a bit on my legacy PC gaming setup. They were definitely ahead of the curve when it came down to treating headphones as capable of true 3D binaural HRTF audio and not one-dimensional stereo panning devices, and it's a shame that they got bankrupted and bought out by Creative like they did.


----------



## genclaymore

It  also a real shame that creative didn't do any thing  fully with A3D.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Yeah, they bought out Aureal just to get rid of a competitor and didn't even bother supporting A3D properly on their own hardware (which means you still need to set up an old Windows 98 computer with an Aureal Vortex2 card if you want proper A3D 2.0/3.0 support). Jerks.
   
  Also, I just tested the X-Fi Go! SB1100 with Thief 1/2. Muted cutscenes again; how predictable. As I've stated before, I think it's a flaw in Creative's software OpenAL device for all their USB devices, X-Fi MB, the Sound Core3D devices, etc. that's causing this, because it doesn't happen on real X-Fi cards with hardware OpenAL.
   
  Going through Roller's setup process also got my SB Live! 24-bit External SB0490 working pretty nicely too. It might actually be a general Creative USB driver package for everything prior to the Recon3D USB for all I know. Too bad it still has that software OpenAL compatibility problem.


----------



## Roller

On the GFX card market, at least Nvidia put 3dfx tech to good use after they acquired it, but Creative didn't really do anything other than stifle competition. One of the first Creative cards after the Aureal purchase was a mess in all regards and actually a much lower performer than previous with wavetable synthesis expansion boards.
   
  NamelessPFG, play around with buffer size and duration and you're bound to find settings that will fix Thief's cutscenes. There are a couple more problematic games that require buffer tweaking in order for audio to be perfectly in sync or even to be played at all, such as the situational case of Thief.
   
  And I'm glad to see the procedures worked out for you  Have you done any further testing between USB dongles so far?


----------



## Evshrug

Hey guys, a little off topic but could you offer a relatively simple tip for something giving me a headache lately?

I messed up something with a harddrive, it works fine and all, but how does one reformat (and partition, hopefully) in Windows 7? Preferably without downloading any software, as I can only get Internet access right now with my iPad (at certain times of the day).

Thanks much, I feel like a complete noob when murking around in advanced windows settings :/


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Hey guys, a little off topic but could you offer a relatively simple tip for something giving me a headache lately?
> I messed up something with a harddrive, it works fine and all, but how does one reformat (and partition, hopefully) in Windows 7? Preferably without downloading any software, as I can only get Internet access right now with my iPad (at certain times of the day).
> Thanks much, I feel like a complete noob when murking around in advanced windows settings :/


 
   
   
  You just need to go to Disk Management through Computer Management on Administrative Tools on the control panel, and you will be able to do what you want. Simply formatting can be done through Windows Explorer.


----------



## Evshrug

roller said:


> You just need to go to Disk Management through Computer Management on Administrative Tools on the control panel, and you will be able to do what you want. Simply formatting can be done through Windows Explorer.




Ok... yeah that's what I was looking for. FYI In win8CP, I actually had to just type "Disk Management" in the control panel search bar, the control panel doesn't have an Admin Tools section anymore (at least visible from the home screen). I went looking under the Hardware and sound pane, but Admin Tools is under the System and Security section :/

I deleted the troublesome partition, thanks for the help.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roller said:


> NamelessPFG, play around with buffer size and duration and you're bound to find settings that will fix Thief's cutscenes. There are a couple more problematic games that require buffer tweaking in order for audio to be perfectly in sync or even to be played at all, such as the situational case of Thief.
> 
> And I'm glad to see the procedures worked out for you  Have you done any further testing between USB dongles so far?


 

 Unfortunately, the Thief problem isn't that simple. Messing around with Buffer and Duration values still hasn't fixed it, and for that matter, I know it's something deep in the software OpenAL renderer because I can't enable hardware acceleration even with ALchemy in place.
   
  That, and the default 4-buffer, duration-25 settings work fine on real X-Fi cards. Cutscenes have sounds, and I can enable hardware acceleration and EAX just fine.
   
  I haven't done too much testing other than Thief and Unreal Tournament thus far. I could dig up more games to test with, but I don't want to fill up my notebook's little 80 GB SSD with games that take up space very quickly, especially since the old ones need to have disc images mounted not just because of disc checks, but because of redbook audio soundtracks.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Unfortunately, the Thief problem isn't that simple. Messing around with Buffer and Duration values still hasn't fixed it, and for that matter, I know it's something deep in the software OpenAL renderer because I can't enable hardware acceleration even with ALchemy in place.
> 
> That, and the default 4-buffer, duration-25 settings work fine on real X-Fi cards. Cutscenes have sounds, and I can enable hardware acceleration and EAX just fine.
> 
> I haven't done too much testing other than Thief and Unreal Tournament thus far. I could dig up more games to test with, but I don't want to fill up my notebook's little 80 GB SSD with games that take up space very quickly, especially since the old ones need to have disc images mounted not just because of disc checks, but because of redbook audio soundtracks.


 
   
   
  Are you pointing ALchemy to the right place? A few specific games require multiple index points, and in Thief's case, you have to use Game Path as well as Sub Folder options. Since Thief isn't a game that requires a specific DSP mode, that alone should make everything work flawlessly.
   
  Both UT 99 and UT 2004 all work without a hitch, and UT 2004 performs quite nicely. Haven't tested UT3 yet though, although I've been looking around and it seems it requires a few additional steps.
   
  Just because hardware X-Fi cards work with default settings, that doesn't mean the same settings work for USB audio devices.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roller said:


> Are you pointing ALchemy to the right place? A few specific games require multiple index points, and in Thief's case, you have to use Game Path as well as Sub Folder options. Since Thief isn't a game that requires a specific DSP mode, that alone should make everything work flawlessly.
> 
> Both UT 99 and UT 2004 all work without a hitch, and UT 2004 performs quite nicely. Haven't tested UT3 yet though, although I've been looking around and it seems it requires a few additional steps.
> 
> Just because hardware X-Fi cards work with default settings, that doesn't mean the same settings work for USB audio devices.


 
   
  Dropping the dsound.dll and dsound.ini in the game directory with THIEF.EXE does the trick on real X-Fi hardware. In general, you put those two files (which is what you're really doing by pointing ALchemy to a game directory through its GUI) wherever the game executable is, and Thief has no additional executables in any of the game directories' subfolders. Thus, I'm certain it's not a case of misplaced files.
   
  Just for the hell of it, I tried doing it through a Windows XP VM, and...the cutscenes actually had sound! Unfortunately, I couldn't actually play the game itself because VMware just gave me a black screen during the cutscenes and in the main menu. At least this shows promise for its DirectSound3D implementation when used on XP, but I'd rather not do any crazy dual-booting on my notebook.
   
  In any case, as long as Creative doesn't update their software OpenAL renderer, this isn't going to work out at all. I'll have to find out if Asus fared any better with the Xonar U3, or if they ran into the same pitfalls.
   
  The next game I test might be Descent 3, maybe followed by the first two Soldier of Fortune titles since I know they have hardware-accelerated sound (DS3D for SoF1, OAL for SoF2). I just need to move beyond Thief and UT already.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Dropping the dsound.dll and dsound.ini in the game directory with THIEF.EXE does the trick on real X-Fi hardware. In general, you put those two files (which is what you're really doing by pointing ALchemy to a game directory through its GUI) wherever the game executable is, and Thief has no additional executables in any of the game directories' subfolders. Thus, I'm certain it's not a case of misplaced files.
> 
> Just for the hell of it, I tried doing it through a Windows XP VM, and...the cutscenes actually had sound! Unfortunately, I couldn't actually play the game itself because VMware just gave me a black screen during the cutscenes and in the main menu. At least this shows promise for its DirectSound3D implementation when used on XP, but I'd rather not do any crazy dual-booting on my notebook.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Executables aren't the only files ALchemy links its library to. There are a few games that can require up to 10 copies of library files on separate folders.
   
  I suggest you to set ALchemy like I pointed out, adding the System subfolder within Thief's folder on the Sub Folder settings path.
   
  Of course Windows XP will have very much the best experience the USB implementation allows since it skips any wrapper needs. Better than that, only hardware X-Fi audio can provide.
   
  Both Soldier of Fortune games run on DS3D, not OpenAL. They work just fine in terms of recognizing hardware audio, but I wasn't particularly impressed with the implementation on the game.
   
  You want to try more games? Try Doom 3, F.E.A.R., Half Life 2, Warcraft 3, World of Warcraft, Dirt 1/2/3, Operation Flashpoint, Command and Conquer Generals/3/Red Alert 3, Bioshock, Prey, Cryostatis, Serious Sam FE/SE, just to name a few.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roller said:


> Executables aren't the only files ALchemy links its library to. There are a few games that can require up to 10 copies of library files on separate folders.
> 
> I suggest you to set ALchemy like I pointed out, adding the System subfolder within Thief's folder on the Sub Folder settings path.
> 
> ...


 
   
  There's just one little problem with that...*there is no "System" subfolder.*
   
  You must be thinking of Thief: Deadly Shadows, the third game which uses UnrealEngine2.5 and thus would have a "System" folder in which the executables reside, which I haven't tested yet. I'm talking about the first two games that use the Dark Engine, more specifically Thief Gold. They keep their executables in the root directory and don't have any "System" subfolders.
   
  If Soldier of Fortune 2 doesn't use OpenAL, then why does the manual mention it and the game directory have an OpenAL32.dll present? I'll work on that later.
   
  Doom 3, Half-Life 2, F.E.A.R., Bioshock, Prey, Cryostasis, and DiRT 2/3 are not going to run well on an Intel GMA 4500MHD-based notebook, especially Doom 3 because it uses OpenGL (and Intel's OpenGL "support' is the worst). My desktops could handle them with ease, but I'm not going to risk screwing up their X-Fi drivers and associated software by throwing the USB devices into the mix. This is actually why I'm sticking to older games for testing these USB devices; they're meant for use with this notebook anyway.
   
  Good call on Serious Sam TFE/TSE, though. DS3D-based, and very easy to run smoothly even on lower-end computers.
   
  I don't have WC3, WoW, or C&C because I'm not really into RTSs or MMORPGs.
   
  Operation Flashpoint...might think about that one, but hardly anyone plays it because ArmA II's been out for a while. (And screw that Cold War Crisis mission where you're alone and have to move from a forest to an extraction point on open ground, with enemies everywhere, AI that doesn't have the visibility problems you do, and the all-too-likely result that you will suddenly drop dead, having no idea what just killed you because you didn't see that AI sniper in the woods.)


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> There's just one little problem with that...*there is no "System" subfolder.*
> 
> You must be thinking of Thief: Deadly Shadows, the third game which uses UnrealEngine2.5 and thus would have a "System" folder in which the executables reside, which I haven't tested yet. I'm talking about the first two games that use the Dark Engine, more specifically Thief Gold. They keep their executables in the root directory and don't have any "System" subfolders.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Actually I was thinking of Thief Gold, but I was mixing folder structure with Deadly Shadows.
   
  There are games with both DS3D and OpenAL support, just like there are games with MSX, SW DS3D, HW DS3D, EAX, A3D, etc. Still, it's curious that games support DS3D and OpenAL on the same game given that the base principle is slightly different, but it's a good addition regardless.
   
  Half Life 2 and F.E.A.R. runs very easily on IGPs as old as Intel GMA 950, nevermind a GMA 4500MHD that's two generations newer.
   
  I wasn't aware you were running it on a notebook, especially one with that IGP. What are its system specs?
   
  Ah, that's called the xray AI vision, quite famous on Far Cry (the first game, not the completely unrelated sequel).


----------



## NamelessPFG

It's an HP EliteBook 2730p. It's a note-taking workhorse that I didn't buy for gaming (that's what desktops are for), but I'll run whatever I can get away with on it.
   
  -Intel Core 2 Duo L9400 (overclocked to 2.13 GHz via ThrottleStop and a dual-IDA BIOS)
  -4 GB DDR2
  -Intel GMA 4500MHD
  -Analog Devices SoundMAX AD1984A
  -Intel X18-M G1 80 GB
   
  This will have to do until I can afford a Fujitsu Lifebook T901 with the NVIDIA Quadro NVS 4200M option, a rare case of a convertible Tablet PC NOT being stuck with Intel graphics. (Seriously, almost all of them have Intel graphics, and the ones that don't have crappy TN panels and outdated dedicated GPUs.)
   
  I could, in theory, use the ExpressCard slot with a PE-4L and plug a real X-Fi card into that, but I'm concerned about how PCIe X-Fi drivers might act if I disconnect it.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> It's an HP EliteBook 2730p. It's a note-taking workhorse that I didn't buy for gaming (that's what desktops are for), but I'll run whatever I can get away with on it.
> 
> -Intel Core 2 Duo L9400 (overclocked to 2.13 GHz via ThrottleStop and a dual-IDA BIOS)
> -4 GB DDR2
> ...


 
   
   
  Ah, I see. I'm familiarized with workhorses of that class. I have an old notebook around with a Core Duo T2600 running at stock 2.16GHz, 4GB DDR2, Intel GMA 950 with modded drivers and tweaking tools created by a forum dedicated to Intel IGP modded driver development and tweaking, the onboard audio chip is of no consequence, and a 500GB HDD. Unfortunately it only has PCMCIA.
   
  PE-4L shouldn't pose any problem as long as you only connect and disconnect it when the machine is powered off. In the event you boot the machine without PE-4L connected, drivers will just sit there and not call hardware since it's not present.
   
  Also, are you running Windows 7 x86 or x64?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Windows 7 64-bit, of course. I'd be crazy not to with 4 GB of RAM installed.
   
  Having to connect and disconnect with the system fully powered off would be a bit more hassle than I'd like. Word is that people who use the ExpressCard slot for eGPU purposes can at least connect/disconnect their graphics cards while the system's in sleep mode, which I could live with.
   
  EDIT: Tested the original versions of Serious Sam TFE/TSE. As it turns out, the EAX option is just for reverb, because I sure as hell am not getting proper positioning out of these games no matter which of my computers I use. There are numerous posts on the Serious Zone forums to the same effect, too. I can't believe any developer would implement EAX for reverb and so forth while completely ignoring proper positional audio like that.


----------



## Roller

Well, it mainly depends on system specs, are there are some older systems that also have 4GB of RAM that I do recommend staying on 64bits. Yours can already cope the higher 64bits burden.
   
  While not recommended, sleep mode is still close to a powered off system. The main issue is that PCIe hardware, by default, isn't hot swappable. If for some reason you can't do the proper shutdown procedure, then at least hibernate to send the system into a deeper sleep state.
   
  Regarding Serious Sam, it's a bit of a shame that positional cue accuracy wasn't given the same care as graphics, especially since very little GFX cards can render all the graphics effects both games have, and no current gen GPU can, for instance. And no, just because of the more frantic rhythm of the game, that poses no excuse for less audio treatment.
   
  Have you tried F.E.A.R. yet?


----------



## NamelessPFG

If hibernation works, I can live with that, even if it means another 4 GB lost on that SSD. (I really wish this system wasn't limited to 1.8" microSATA drives...)
   
  As for not trying F.E.A.R., it's because I don't own it, as I stated earlier. Would the demo be fine?


----------



## Roller

Well, there are already more reasonably priced, higher capacity and high performing mSATA SSDs on the market.
   
  In all honesty, I haven't tried the demo, but on all my years of gaming I've never seen a game have its audio crippled on a finished game demo, so it should work ok. And you will notice if it's working properly, contrary to other games.


----------



## NamelessPFG

The cost advantage of mSATA (as in the "looks like mini-PCIe but isn't" form factor) gets negated somewhat when I have to plunk down $25-30 for a microSATA-to-mSATA adapter, and if I'm going to stuff a bigger SSD into it, it better be reliable.
   
  Intel may not have the fastest benchmarks, but they have a reputation for reliability. Samsung also fares pretty well with reliability, too. OCZ is to be avoided like the plague, though.


----------



## Roller

SSDs now are for the most part all high performing and easily saturating interface limits, so that's not a concern.
   
  OCZ used to be problematic, that's the reputation that went around during the original SSD firmware of the time, virtually all known bugs have been fixed and their latest offering are on par with the best, performance and reliability wise. Samsung has a good balance, and Intel is reliable indeed.
   
  In any case, I wouldn't spend much on a laptop with those specs, both CPU and IGP wise.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Okay, when I first heard about those Dark Engine (Thief 1/2, System Shock 2) patches on Kotaku, I wasn't impressed. These games already ran on modern computers with modern OSes with a bit of work.
   
But then I read the changelog, and tried them out for myself.
   
*THIS. IS. GLORIOUS!*
   
  You know all those complaints I had about hardware acceleration only working under actual hardware OpenAL devices (read: X-Fi cards with the proper DSP, probably Audigy cards too), regardless of the ALchemy version used?
   
  That's no longer an issue. Software OpenAL on all those USB "X-Fi" devices works now. Hardware acceleration works, EAX works, 48 channels are enabled just fine, CMSS-3D Headphone gives proper positioning...this is the greatest thing. I can play these games on my notebook without complaining about the sound now!
   
  Of course, that's just one of the many, _many_ improvements these patches bring. Expect to see some impressive mods in the future, now that the engine limits have been raised significantly.


----------



## Roller

Just like X-Fi cards, so do Audigy cards have real cards with hardware DSPs as well as a few software based cards, namely LS/SE/Value cards.

 In any case, I'm glad to see Thief is finally working properly.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I say "probably" because while I do know about the EMU10k2 on the proper Audigy cards, I've never had one to test first-hand. Skipped straight from Live! to X-Fi, as you know.
   
  Not that I expect any issues since the first two Thief games were developed in the A3D and EAX 2.0 era of hardware sound acceleration...


----------



## cronic22

Hi all,
   
  This is all new for me but here recently I bought the ATH A700's (thanks to reading posts here on this site) and now comes the fun part of upgrading the onboard audio.
   
  I have been doing a lot of homework, trying to keep my budget at $100 and under for the sound card and the ones I am really considering are the Creative Xtremegamer and the Xonar DG. The thing I keep hearing though are comments like the Xtremegamer is an older card and dosent work as well for current games, and the Xonar is better suited for music than for games. I have my eye on the Xtremegamer though cause I see it being sold at $35 refurbished which seems like a really great deal. But I also know Creative dosent have the best rep. So curious, what is a good recommended card at under $100? This is strictly for gaming with just a bit of music and movies. Or am I just reading too much, and one of these would be just fine?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





cronic22 said:


> This is all new for me but here recently I bought the ATH A700's (thanks to reading posts here on this site) and now comes the fun part of upgrading the onboard audio.
> 
> I have been doing a lot of homework, trying to keep my budget at $100 and under for the sound card and the ones I am really considering are the Creative Xtremegamer and the Xonar DG. The thing I keep hearing though are comments like the Xtremegamer is an older card and dosent work as well for current games, and the Xonar is better suited for music than for games. I have my eye on the Xtremegamer though cause I see it being sold at $35 refurbished which seems like a really great deal. But I also know Creative dosent have the best rep. So curious, what is a good recommended card at under $100? This is strictly for gaming with just a bit of music and movies. Or am I just reading too much, and one of these would be just fine?


 
  Refurb X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) PCI-E sound card, $45.
  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102043


----------



## genclaymore

Amazon does have a used Xonar DG for 16 dollars but its PCI. Their also a Xtreme gamer which is a Xtreme music with a HS on it for 19 on amazon too.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> Amazon does have a used Xonar DG for 16 dollars but its PCI. Their also a Xtreme gamer which is a Xtreme music with a HS on it for 19 on amazon too.


 
  GenClaymore, how do you like the sound of the ATH-A900X connected to the NFB-12.1?


----------



## genclaymore

To me its a very good combo, but then I am using the 4x MP Soft-knee Filter setting as my NFB12.0 has the Jumper pins inside of it. I can't explain the details of how it sound that well. I just know I enjoy it a lot. Plus  I don't see my self changing from this source of the A900x's since I like it that much. Also I did try 8x MPA Filter which I liked too which made the sound signature ever more detailed and the bass was even more tighter. But I like the 4x MP Soft Knee settings more so.
   
  I don't know what the NFB-12.0 sound on the default 2x Brickwall Filter setting as when I bought it used from another user on this forums it was already on 4x MP Soft-knee. But I could tell the differences between both digital filter settings i tried.


----------



## Omni

Hi All,
   
  I'll just state from the get go, I am a complete audio noob and am pretty much a PC gaming noob (last PC game I played before my most recent build was Half Life 1).  Currently only have onboard sound, and running out to one of two options, either logitech Z-2300 speakers (I know these aren't the best, but had them lying around) or to my Pioneer AVR for 5.1 surround sound.  I use the AVR when I'm playing games off of my TV (More casual games, Skyrim, Batman AA or AC, basically any game that plays well/better with a controller than K/M) and I play FPS games on a monitor. 
   
  I am looking to upgrade my sound when playing on the monitor for fps games and action rpg (diablo, torchlight).  After visiting this forum and others, the general consensus seems to be that headphone gaming offers the best immersion and is the best bang for your buck route to go, so that is what I am leaning towards. 
   
  I think I'll be picking up a Titanium HD as a soundcard, but am lost to what my other options are.  From what I've seen here and the console gaming guide side of things, the three headphones I am most interested in currently are the AD700's, Senn HD598's, or AKG Q701, in order of expense.  I also understand that the AKG set would need an amp to properly be appreciated, and this leaves me with another question.  Assuming I go that route, there appears to be a lot of good feedback on the 02 amp.  This guide also mentions that you can use an external DAC in replacement of onboard sound processing, so say i get the AKG set, would it make sense to get the 02 amp+DAC combo or would the external DAC really not provide me with much added benefit from letting the TiHD do the processing?
   
  The AD700's are the cheapest, and are highly regarded both in terms of performance and as a good stepping stone into headphones, so part of me wants to go that route, but the lack of bass is somewhat offputting (I think I'd miss the bass when playing single player campaigns in FPS games like BF3).
   
  Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
   
  Thanks!


----------



## Roller

Well, the Titanium HD has a quite good DAC, which is well worth using, dismissing the need to get an external DAC, unless you plan on spending well above $500 on DAC alone. Getting an amp is a sensible option, as that will allow you to better deliver power to more demanding headphones, and the three headphones you listed benefit from additional amping, each on a different degree, mind you.
   
  You have to ask yourself if you prefer to do competitive gaming, something which the AD700 perform admirably, or immersive gaming, something the HD598 are better at. For immersion, you should also consider the Ultrasone HFI-2400 and Beyerdynamic DT990, both sets that provide very satisfying immersion without sacrificing soundstage and positional cues, that are fed to them through the soundcard with a complete gaming audio feature set.
   
  Overall, Titanium HD + O2 + HFI-2400/DT990/HD598 seem to be the best setups for immersive gaming.


----------



## Omni

Quote: 





roller said:


> Well, the Titanium HD has a quite good DAC, which is well worth using, dismissing the need to get an external DAC, unless you plan on spending well above $500 on DAC alone. Getting an amp is a sensible option, as that will allow you to better deliver power to more demanding headphones, and the three headphones you listed benefit from additional amping, each on a different degree, mind you.
> 
> You have to ask yourself if you prefer to do competitive gaming, something which the AD700 perform admirably, or immersive gaming, something the HD598 are better at. For immersion, you should also consider the Ultrasone HFI-2400 and Beyerdynamic DT990, both sets that provide very satisfying immersion without sacrificing soundstage and positional cues, that are fed to them through the soundcard with a complete gaming audio feature set.
> 
> Overall, Titanium HD + O2 + HFI-2400/DT990/HD598 seem to be the best setups for immersive gaming.


 
   


 Good info on the TiHD.  I'm by no means an audiophile so what you say makes sense, no need for an external DAC at this stage.
   
  Correct me if I'm wrong concerning the HD598's, but I thought since the impedence is only about 50 ohms, and the TiHD does have somewhat of a headphone amp built in, that it would be more than enough to drive those cans? 
   
  Thanks for the other headphone suggestions btw, I shall look more into them.  Main reason I mentioned the AKG set was due to Mad Lust Envy recommending them as the best overall set of cans for both competitive gaming and immersion, saying that if you only had one set of headphones, it would be the one to get.  That being said, maybe it makes sense to get the AD700 for competitive gaming, and then another set of headphones for single player stuff.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





omni said:


> Good info on the TiHD.  I'm by no means an audiophile so what you say makes sense, no need for an external DAC at this stage.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong concerning the HD598's, but I thought since the impedence is only about 50 ohms, and the TiHD does have somewhat of a headphone amp built in, that it would be more than enough to drive those cans?
> 
> Thanks for the other headphone suggestions btw, I shall look more into them.  Main reason I mentioned the AKG set was due to Mad Lust Envy recommending them as the best overall set of cans for both competitive gaming and immersion, saying that if you only had one set of headphones, it would be the one to get.  That being said, maybe it makes sense to get the AD700 for competitive gaming, and then another set of headphones for single player stuff.


 
   
   
  How easy to drive a set is isn't just related to impedance, but given that the Titanium HD has a headphone output up to 330 Ohm, there wouldn't be any noticeable issues when running it straight from the card. However, getting an external headphone amp would make you completely sure that you can fully drive headphones, and if you go with something like the O2, you will be able to drive all but flagship headphones.
   
  That thread you're talking about refers to console gaming alone, not PC gaming. Getting a set of AD700 (or the improved AD900) for competitive gaming and a set of HFI-2400/DT990/HD598 for immersive gaming does cover both grounds. I personally don't have much love for that AKG set, not to mention it's rather picky when it comes to amping.


----------



## Evshrug

I have both the AD700 and AKG Q701. For what it's worth, I'd like to chime in on just the headphone aspect. Hope this effort is interesting, and not a TL;DR :/

I have had the AD700 for a couple years now, and IMO I still think it is a great value headphone. A warm signature is mostly traded for an expansive soundstage... and I experienced a very appreciable difference between the experience in contrast to any other headphone I had heard until recently. The sound is very controlled and feels fast, pure, layered, and airy; combined with the massive amount of detail retrieval, I think the AD700 is an example of what can be achieved when the focus is on the mid/treble range and an open headphone, regardless of price.

Now, a conversation about bass. Some people talk about bass on these headphones like it suddenly stops making sound below 100 Hz. Obviously that is an exaggeration, the AD700 produces the low notes in songs like the beginning of Massive Attack's "Angel" that actually seems like a silent passage on earbuds. Bass IS presented on the dry side, you lose some of the sense of "body" and weightiness of the sound, but I think it's part of a trade off to keep the bass as tight and detailed as the rest of the freq range. Muse's "Undisclosed Desires" benefits from this presentation IMO, with a texture to the low notes that I find addictive and exciting in a different way from, say, on my near-opposite emphasis V-MODA LP. Also, while gaming, sometimes the rumble of bass gets fatiguing in long sessions, and as Mad points out in his thread sometimes the bass can distract you from detail whoring to the level of an imba advantage. 

Mids, treble, and detail are really important for being "in the zone" when gaming competitively, IMO. And the AD700 does this really well. When playing CoD4 for some serious FPS gaming, it doesn't sound like real guns are cracking and grenades are exploding next to you... it's better. Not only do I not play at the deafening volumes of real life, but the tactical cues are a lot more intuitively grasped with the AD700 than with my different speakers and headphones. It really is a revelation compared to other sub-$100 headphones I have heard. I haven't heard a turtle beach headphone that I didn't absolutely hate by comparison. While some headphones go most of the way, the AD700 just does it with more grace, soundstage depth, layering and separation, and detail. I feel like that's 'nuff said describing it, but IMO mids, highs, detail, and soundstage are their own aspects of fun, and bass body is one more aspect.

I have heard a few headphones that challenge the AD700, and a few trade some of the AD700's precision and strengths for a more balanced sound (like the surprisingly good JVC HA-RX900 when modified with dynamat resonance dampening & other small mods, though I think it would still be just average while gaming), but they usually felt cheaper in construction and less comfortable to me. Oh, and comfort was a big factor for me... sometimes I have worn the AD700 for 8 hour marathon sessions.
-----
Now, in July, I bought Mad's Q701 from him. I'm currently amping them just from my Recon3D and/or little FiiO E5, but I have a VERY nice custom tube amp on the way (look for more on that in a few weeks!). 

For $120 extra over the price I paid for the AD700, I feel like you can take about every aspect of the AD700, and make 5% changes... but they are very welcome changes. First, the look is still unique, but the color isn't as polarizing as the AD700 purple. The comfort is different: having my somewhat large ears free from touching anything is quite nice, the headband takes a bit more of the weight and feels more traditional, but my thinning hair means the headband bumps bug me from "not even noticing it's there." I think my scalp is more sensitive than my ears to pressure, but the Q701 is slightly better at dissipating heat. Interchangeable cords inspire confidence, but the short cord is about the same length as the AD700: too long most of the time.

The sound: the main thing, it seems to have all the good points of the AD700, but with more body and noticeably less bass roll-off. It seems like the highs are ever so slightly smoother and liquid too... but within that 5% change. Now, there have definitely been moments with the AD700 where some sound in the background of a game or song makes me jump and look behind me for the source or check the window to see if it started raining, but overall the Q701 sounds more natural, and more musical, while still unveiling very fine details and nuances. The AD700 elicited joy and elation, the AKG Q701 still has that soaring joy but adds the authority and weight that leaves me blown away. The 5% change makes a % difference that I can't quantify objectively, just that, instinctively, I feel like I can live with this headphone and be done.
-----
So, which would I recommend? I'm honestly not sure ;P
I don't think I could justify the cost of the Q701 back when I bought the AD700, and sometimes I still wonder if the differences are worth the cost, especially since money has barely become less tight since then _and_ I feel like I need a better amp to fully saturate the dynamics of the Q701. I feel like the AD700 is great for gamers and good for music with one weakness (and it responds pretty well to a light EQ), and a good way to learn what most of hi-fi is about at a good price, but honestly it has had zero head-time since the Q701 arrived. Even with the lowly FiiO E5, there is a clear advantage in favor of the Q701. I _am_ interested in comparing them again when connected to a high-quality headphone amp, but as long as I can afford the Q701, it has replaced the AD700 for me.


----------



## Evshrug

Just for full disclosure: my first "good" headphones were not the AD700. My "earginity" was taken by (or given to?) my Etymotic ER6i, which I still find useful on commutes (as a passenger) and in noisy environments. As you can see marked by the blue line in this graph I'm linking, the ER6i is pretty close to neutral except for treble roll off, and in general I come from a taste for neutral rather than any particular freq boosted:
http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID%5B%5D=2591&graphID%5B%5D=2661&graphID%5B%5D=2931&graphID%5B%5D=2141

(How do I change the coding to post that as an image rather than a hyperlink?)


----------



## Omni

Thanks for the clarification roller.  Makes sense that a dedicated amp is needed for the higher end units, figure with the ones I'm looking at, aside from the Q701, I think they'd be fine off the TiHD, at least for now in the beginning.
   
  And Thank You Evshrug, def a very detailed and in depth comparison between the two.  I can't honestly say I understand all the terms you used/the manner in which you describe the headphones, but hopefully after I get my first set I too will start develop a better appreciation for sound.
   
  You both bring up a very good point about external amping, and I guess the more I think about it, not sure if it makes monetary sense for me to go straight for that route just yet.  I think I may "settle" (term obviously used loosely here), on the TiHD + AD700 combo to start off with.  They're highly regarded in terms of fps games, even compared to phones such as the Q701, and idk if i can justify the price premium of 150+ for the phones alone, and then another 150 or so for the O2 amp.  I think I will be better off with the AD700 for now, and then possibly getting a pair of "fun/immersive" headphones down the road.  figure it makes more sense to go that route anyways, as while all arounders can do well, id imagine that certain headphones cater more towards a particular use than another.  AD700 for fps/multiplayer gaming and then maybe one of the beyers/HD598/cheaper ultrasone for more fun for movies/single player experiences.
   
  seeing as I also have the pc hooked up to my tv/sound system as well, i think i'll only be using the headphones when i play on the monitor, so mainly fps games anyways.  Thank you all for your insight and help in guiding me along the way as I make these decisions!


----------



## Eric_C

Hey everyone, hopping over from MLE's console gaming thread because I'm barely touching my Xbox and PS3. I want to buy a soundcard to do what MixAmp is able to do--virtual surround on headphones. Strictly for gaming, I have an amp already...at minimal cost, what should I look at?


----------



## Evshrug

omni said:


> Thanks for the clarification roller.  Makes sense that a dedicated amp is needed for the higher end units, figure with the ones I'm looking at, aside from the Q701, I think they'd be fine off the TiHD, at least for now in the beginning.
> 
> And Thank You Evshrug, def a very detailed and in depth comparison between the two.  I can't honestly say I understand all the terms you used/the manner in which you describe the headphones, but hopefully after I get my first set I too will start develop a better appreciation for sound.
> 
> ...




Lol hopefully it wasn't an overload. Sometimes it's hard to explain an experience without getting a little metaphorical, or what have you, but it seems like you got the gist.

And you always can add an amp later, don't _have to_ lump your purchase into one big $$$. The AD700 can easily be powered by my iPod video or touch. So, the Ti HD ought to be more than enough! And, the difference amped vs unamped is real, but it may be hard to detect if you aren't used to good headphones and the unamped sound anyway. With headphones as easy to drive as the AD700, the difference may be too small to detect anyway. So I support your choice to start with a decent headphone, get used to it, and see what you want from that point.

I'll probably be putting my AD700 up for sale in a gaming bundle, with a mic, adapters, FiiO E5, basically everything you need to get started on an Xbox — but I want to do A/B testing with the new amp on the way first, do some learning.

That said, I did pull out my AD700 and played some Metro 2033 last night because of this Convo, and again I was impressed by the value compared to the AKG. It may or may not have panned the surround sounds around me at a more even distance than the AKG even... but I didn't test back to back, so just take from that that the AD700 does very good. It's still quite comfy too.

Eric_C,
Roller and Nameless have more experience than me, but real quick their top recommendation is Creative's Titanium HD, though a refurbished Creative Titanium is a pretty great value at Newegg.com, and PurpleAngel has a value recommendation from the Asus Xonar line. Nameless is a big fan of the Titanium series cards because they have the fullest backwards compatibility to older games from the era of peak Gaming Audio effort, like the thief series and Battlefield 2. Look forward to more details from all of them, but those are some ideas to start your research


----------



## Eric_C

Evshrug, thanks I was starting to get that impression--that THD is the way to go. It's a pricey card though--about USD 240 where I live, and no refurbs in sight.
   
  I'm trying to see if my mobo can actually output unprocessed 5.1 via optical. It's a Gigabyte card with the Realtek 889a chip, and I've found that (under Win7's "Recording Devices" tab) there's options for using Dolby Digital, DTS, or WMA for sound processing. Details online are scant about whether the optical is stereo or surround, though.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





eric_c said:


> Evshrug, thanks I was starting to get that impression--that THD is the way to go. It's a pricey card though--about USD 240 where I live, and no refurbs in sight.
> 
> I'm trying to see if my mobo can actually output unprocessed 5.1 via optical. It's a Gigabyte card with the Realtek 889a chip, and I've found that (under Win7's "Recording Devices" tab) there's options for using Dolby Digital, DTS, or WMA for sound processing. Details online are scant about whether the optical is stereo or surround, though.


 
  What model Gigabyte motherboard is it?


----------



## Eric_C

[size=13.333333969116211px]GA-Z68XP-UD3-B3[/size]


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





eric_c said:


> [size=13.333333969116211px]GA-Z68XP-UD3-B3[/size]


 
  All I could find is a setting for Dolby Pro logic IIx.
  Might want to download the latest audio drivers for your motherboard,
  it turns out the latest update came out today (12-4-2012)
  http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3852#dl


----------



## Eric_C

Thanks Purple, I'll check that out when I'm home.


----------



## Eric_C

Btw PurpleAngel: what was the Xonar card that you'd recommend? I've been looking at some CMSS vs Dolby Headphone comparisons on YouTube, and I think Dolby sounds just a wee bit better to me.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





eric_c said:


> Btw PurpleAngel: what was the Xonar card that you'd recommend? I've been looking at some CMSS vs Dolby Headphone comparisons on YouTube, and I think Dolby sounds just a wee bit better to me.


 
   
  If you're thinking of the Crysis 2 video, DH definitely comes across as a bit better-sounding on that one. I don't know why, but they're more even with my first-hand experiences, aside from the opposite frequency emphasis on each (CMSS-3D Headphone favors treble, Dolby Headphone favors bass).
   
  By the way, have you heard this one? (No DH, but this gives you an idea of CMSS-3D Headphone at its positional best. If only it didn't take the bite out of the gunshot sounds...)
   





   
  Anyway, while I'm not PurpleAngel, I've seen enough posts to know that your likely recommendations are:
   
  -Xonar DG (just $30, PCI, has Dolby Headphone and slight headphone amp capability)
  -Xonar DGX (around $45, basically a DG with PCI-Express)
  -Xonar Essence STX (around $120 used, PCI-Express, powerful FiiO E9-ish amp built-in)


----------



## Eric_C

Good to know that DH and CMSS are fairly equal, then. I did get the impression that the tonal balance of DH was more bassy--and given my headphones (880 and HE-400), that's a better tilt than more treble.
   
  Ya saw that CoD2 vid, it's not too bad either. 
   
  I'm still stuck at work right now, but when I get home I'll try and fiddle with my mobo to see if I can squeeze 5.1 out via optical to my MixAmp. Maybe that, or even Realtek's onboard "Headphone Virtualization" will suffice.


----------



## Evshrug

purpleangel said:


> All I could find is a setting for Dolby Pro logic IIx.
> Might want to download the latest audio drivers for your motherboard,
> it turns out the latest update came out today (12-4-2012)
> http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3852#dl



Hey, that's my MoBo too!
I was thinking about doing a fresh from scratch OS reinstall of OS X anyway, so boot Win8--> update drivers --> wipe other SSD with OS X --> reinstall OS X.

Still haven't figured out the most elegant way to boot off of the SSD while storing the user account on my new (3rd) harddrive in Lion. Closest thing seems to be directing individual program libraries (such as iTunes) to store on the HDD. The most annoying part is that I can't connect to the Internet from home (mom's Pyrrhic victory until I move out), so I have to research info to take home with me on my iPad before leaving work.

Man, am I glad it's Friday!


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





eric_c said:


> Btw PurpleAngel: what was the Xonar card that you'd recommend? I've been looking at some CMSS vs Dolby Headphone comparisons on YouTube, and I think Dolby sounds just a wee bit better to me.


 
  Asus Xonar DG (or DGX) sound card ($26), comes with a half-way decent headphone amplifier and Dolby Headphone surround sound.
  Personally I can see using headphones up to 150-ohms with it, some even use their 250-Ohm headphones, but I think at 250-Ohm you might lose a little quality in the sound.
  The Asus Xonar DX or D1 sound cards are a good low cost choice ($65-$80) if you plan on using an external add-on headphone amplifier.
  Asus Xonar Essence STX, ($180) comes with everything built in.
   
  Currently the (refurb) Creative Titanium (non-HD) is selling for just $43, great value for those into FPS gaming.
  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102043&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-na-_-na-_-na&AID=10446076&PID=4003003&SID=6zvyqod4scp5


----------



## Dead Ghost

Quick question: 
  Would you say that DDL hardware support is only useful for (modern) games, and DTS Connect only for movies? I'm asking because some movie players already support Dolby Headphone (e.g: Cyberlink PowerDVD), independent of the soundcard used (i guess all the processing is done by the CPU).


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





dead ghost said:


> Quick question:
> Would you say that DDL hardware support is only useful for (modern) games, and DTS Connect only for movies? I'm asking because some movie players already support Dolby Headphone (e.g: Cyberlink PowerDVD), independent of the soundcard used (i guess all the processing is done by the CPU).


 
  DDL (Dolby Digital Live) is useful because it allows you to send up to 7-channels of compressed audio thru S/PDIF (optical & coaxial).
  Compressed audio for movies or games and some specialized 5.1 audio music.
  Otherwise S/PDIF only carries 2-channel of PCM (uncompressed) audio.
  DTS is a competitor to Dolby. so DTS tries to offer the same features as Dolby.


----------



## Dead Ghost

Hmmm...so either of them would work with pc games, including DTS encoding? PC source (game) -> DTS encoding => S/PDIF output => external Dolby Headphone hardware => headphones
   
I admit all this is a bit confusing to me, i was under the impression that most modern games (console ports) use Dolby Digital, and most movies use DTS, and if you want to get 7 channels of compressed audio through S/PDIF, you need DDL encoding for games, and DTS Connect for movies. And if you want both (movies and games), you'll need both encoding standards, one for each, supported by the source.


----------



## Chawanwit

Hey 
   
  Few days ago I saw a gaming headset (Logitech G35) being on the shelf of a IT store. Made me wonder besides the microphone and buttons on the headset. What are the differences between these and audiophile headphone like the hd498 for example. Do they have better surround sound like wider soundstage and such?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





dead ghost said:


> Hmmm...so either of them would work with pc games, including DTS encoding? PC source (game) -> DTS encoding => S/PDIF output => external Dolby Headphone hardware => headphones
> 
> I admit all this is a bit confusing to me, i was under the impression that most modern games (console ports) use Dolby Digital, and most movies use DTS, and if you want to get 7 channels of compressed audio through S/PDIF, you need DDL encoding for games, and DTS Connect for movies. And if you want both (movies and games), you'll need both encoding standards, one for each, supported by the source.


 
  DDL and DTS Connect take whatever audio signal they receive, they compresses it, send it thru S/PDIF and decompresses it on the other end.
   
   
  If compressed with DDL, then you need Dolby Digital at the other end to uncompress the audio signal
  If using DTS Connect to compress, then you need DTS at the other end to uncompress.
  I believe DVD movie sound tracks like Dolby Digital and DTS come compressed on the movie disk already.
  I believe Microsoft pushes for Dolby on their console games, not sure about PS3.
  I believe Blu-ray movies that use DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby Ture-HD can not pass thru S/PDIF, only pass thru HDMI.
  I believe Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS ES can pass thru S/PDIF, Blu-ray movie disks might come with these audio tracks also for S/PDIF use.


----------



## Dead Ghost

Ok, i think i got it now, thanks.  
   
  Do you know what is the level of compression done by DDL/DTS Connect needed for the S/PDIF output? Versus uncompressed, through HDMI? I presume that it's the same as with digital music, mp3 (lossy) vs flac (lossless), right? Could a good headphone (<500 usd) clearly show the audio differences between DTS-HD Master Audio/Dolby Ture-HD (thru HDMI, GPU -> receiver) and Dolby Digital 5.1/DTS ES (thru S/PDIF => receiver), on a movie's soundtrack, using Dolby Headphone or equivalent virtualization?
   
  I've not yet decided on the external audio device that will get me Dolby Headphone virtualization from my PC, as well as my consoles. I could go for a receiver and get the audio and video signal thru HDMI. Or get any other device with S/PDIF input, like JVC/Victor SU-DH1 (hard to find), MixAmp. Or something wireless, like the Audio Technica ATH-DWL3300 (i like this one because i can use my own headphones, similar to the MixAmp 5.8). Or the only wireless headset that supports uncompressed audio thru HDMI inputs, Sony MDR-DS7500, but i'm not convinced that the headphones supplied are good enough to enjoy uncompressed audio.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





dead ghost said:


> Ok, i think i got it now, thanks.
> 
> Do you know what is the level of compression done by DDL/DTS Connect needed for the S/PDIF output? Versus uncompressed, through HDMI? I presume that it's the same as with digital music, mp3 (lossy) vs flac (lossless), right? Could a good headphone (<500 usd) clearly show the audio differences between DTS-HD Master Audio/Dolby Ture-HD (thru HDMI, GPU -> receiver) and Dolby Digital 5.1/DTS ES (thru S/PDIF => receiver), on a movie's soundtrack, using Dolby Headphone or equivalent virtualization?
> 
> I've not yet decided on the external audio device that will get me Dolby Headphone virtualization from my PC, as well as my consoles. I could go for a receiver and get the audio and video signal thru HDMI. Or get any other device with S/PDIF input, like JVC/Victor SU-DH1 (hard to find), MixAmp. Or something wireless, like the Audio Technica ATH-DWL3300 (i like this one because i can use my own headphones, similar to the MixAmp 5.8). Or the only wireless headset that supports uncompressed audio thru HDMI inputs, Sony MDR-DS7500, but i'm not convinced that the headphones supplied are good enough to enjoy uncompressed audio.


 
  Have no idea on the level of compression for going thru S/PDIF, could be around 4X?
  The audio quality of  DTS-HD Master audio/Dolby TrueHD over DD 5.1/DTS-ES will be heard no matter what your using, $20 headphone or $500 headphones.
  I prefer Yamaha receivers, Yamaha has there own headphone surround sound (Silent Cinema) which comes in 99% of their receivers.
  With other brands, I think it's hard to tell if they have headphone surround sound.


----------



## Dead Ghost

Would you say Silent Cinema is better sounding than Dolby Headphone? Some Marantz or Harman Kardon receivers have Dolby Headphone support, but not every one and they aren't many (at least in cheaper ones).
   
  The only thing holding me back from buying a receiver is their big size and the fact that i don't need (multichannel) speaker support, as i primarily use headphones, most of the time. A small 2.1 receiver, with virtual surround over headphones (DH, or Silent Cinema), would be perfect, but such a thing doesn't exist, as far as i know.


----------



## Evshrug

dead ghost said:


> Would you say Silent Cinema is better sounding than Dolby Headphone? Some Marantz or Harman Kardon receivers have Dolby Headphone support, but not every one and they aren't many (at least in cheaper ones).
> 
> The only thing holding me back from buying a receiver is their big size and the fact that i don't need (multichannel) speaker support, as i primarily use headphones, most of the time. A small 2.1 receiver, with virtual surround over headphones (DH, or Silent Cinema), would be perfect, but such a thing doesn't exist, as far as i know.




Or even just an integrated amp with virtual surround as an option for the headphone jack. I know.

Fwiw, you don't HAVE to plug in all speaker channels, but they'd be there till you want them.

Silent cinema was pretty good on my receiver (see home setup in sig for model #), the directionality was accurate, but for my tastes it was noticably echoey no matter what DSP I set it for. Might be down to taste though, and it was great when watching The Dark Knight. I don't have mine set up right now because the only place I can play right now is in my bedroom, and my Internet was shut off halfway through last month (this message coming to you from my girlfriend's).

Since I got the more conveniently-sized Recon3D, I put the receiver back in it's box. I didn't do any critical A/B switching tests, so I can't quantify the differences, but my first impression of the Recon3D after having been using Silent Cinema for a bit, was that I was more impressed with the Recon3D. May be a personal taste thing. The receiver definitely has the better headphone amp section.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





dead ghost said:


> Would you say Silent Cinema is better sounding than Dolby Headphone? Some Marantz or Harman Kardon receivers have Dolby Headphone support, but not every one and they aren't many (at least in cheaper ones).
> 
> The only thing holding me back from buying a receiver is their big size and the fact that i don't need (multichannel) speaker support, as i primarily use headphones, most of the time. A small 2.1 receiver, with virtual surround over headphones (DH, or Silent Cinema), would be perfect, but such a thing doesn't exist, as far as i know.


 
  Some like Silent Cinema better, some like Dolby Headphone better.
  I personally have no problem using Silent Cinema for headphone surround sound for movies.
  Have you looked into the Astro Mix-Amp?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





chawanwit said:


> Few days ago I saw a gaming headset (Logitech G35) being on the shelf of a IT store. Made me wonder besides the microphone and buttons on the headset. What are the differences between these and audiophile headphone like the hd498 for example. Do they have better surround sound like wider soundstage and such?


 
   
  The G35 basically has a USB sound card with Dolby Headphone support built-in. That's how it gets its positioning. It's a closed design, though, so I'm not expecting spectacular soundstage...or sound quality, for that matter, since it's a Logitech headset.
   
  Frankly, I never liked USB headsets. Better to have a headphone/headset that terminates in typical 3.5mm TRS jacks while using something like an X-Fi Go!, Xonar U3, or Recon3D USB for the USB audio part of it all.


----------



## Dead Ghost

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Have you looked into the Astro Mix-Amp?


 
  Yes, but it only supports Dolby Digital, and i don't have DDL on my onboard realtek.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





dead ghost said:


> Yes, but it only supports Dolby Digital, and i don't have DDL on my onboard realtek.


 
  Just use an Asus Xonar DG sound card in your computer, comes with Dolby Headphone surround sound, plug your headphones straight in.


----------



## Dead Ghost

Can't, i use a mini itx gaming system.


----------



## Eric_C

PurpleAngel: I looked at the DGX review at Ars Technica, and I'm concerned about its midrange emphasis vs the DSX and DX. So now I'm considering the DX (since the DSX has no Dolby Headphone). 

Or am I just over thinking this? Is the midrange emphasis a non-issue for 100% gaming purposes?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





dead ghost said:


> Can't, i use a mini itx gaming system.


 
   
  That's the first time I've ever heard anyone put "Mini-ITX" and "gaming system" in the same sentence...sure, I know about SFF gaming systems like the Shuttle cases and motherboards, but I thought Mini-ITX was more in line with thin client terminals and whatnot, without even a single expansion card slot.
   
  Still, you could get a USB audio device, right? Something like a Xonar U3 or a Recon3D USB, perhaps?


----------



## Phos

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> That's the first time I've ever heard anyone put "Mini-ITX" and "gaming system" in the same sentence...sure, I know about SFF gaming systems like the Shuttle cases and motherboards, but I thought Mini-ITX was more in line with thin client terminals and whatnot, without even a single expansion card slot.
> 
> Still, you could get a USB audio device, right? Something like a Xonar U3 or a Recon3D USB, perhaps?


 
  Nowadays you need a processor and graphics card in a box, especially with PCIe and RAM controllers on die.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





eric_c said:


> PurpleAngel: I looked at the DGX review at Ars Technica, and I'm concerned about its midrange emphasis vs the DSX and DX. So now I'm considering the DX (since the DSX has no Dolby Headphone).
> Or am I just over thinking this? Is the midrange emphasis a non-issue for 100% gaming purposes?


 
  The Xonar DX, D1, DS, DSX do not come with headphone amplifiers, headphones in the 50-Ohm to 80-Ohm will still work decently plugged to these cards.
  Adding an external headphone amplifier to the Xonar DX, D1, DS, DSX makes a great combo.
   
  This is the first I've heard about the mid-range emphasis, maybe Ars Technica does a more detailed review compared to others.
  So whatever mid-range emphasis there is, the Xonar DGX (& DG) are still better over all for headphones, for a stand alone sound card.


----------



## Dead Ghost

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> That's the first time I've ever heard anyone put "Mini-ITX" and "gaming system" in the same sentence...sure, I know about SFF gaming systems like the Shuttle cases and motherboards, but I thought Mini-ITX was more in line with thin client terminals and whatnot, without even a single expansion card slot.
> 
> Still, you could get a USB audio device, right? Something like a Xonar U3 or a Recon3D USB, perhaps?


 
  In the last years, many mini ITX motherboards come with a full 16x  PCI Express slot, and you can use any video card you wish. For example, in this current generation of intel chipsets (Z77), currently they are 5 or 6 mini itx motherboards like that. One example:* *Asus P8Z77-I Deluxe, but this is the most expensive one, since it's so full of stuff on it.  Silverstone and Lian Li (among others) make small cases for them. You can use any top Intel CPU processor in such a small system, even overclock it, with any powerful GPU card you can afford. 
   
  All of them have realtek onboard sound chipsets, but none of them come with Dolby Digital Live support, don't know why. Only that Asus has DTS Connect encoding, the rest of them have THX TruStudio (Pro).
   
  Yes, i could use an USB sound card, but i would like only one external device, that could also work with consoles.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





dead ghost said:


> In the last years, many mini ITX motherboards come with a full 16x  PCI Express slot, and you can use any video card you wish. For example, in this current generation of intel chipsets (Z77), currently they are 5 or 6 mini itx motherboards like that. One example:* *Asus P8Z77-I Deluxe, but this is the most expensive one, since it's so full of stuff on it.  Silverstone and Lian Li (among others) make small cases for them. You can use any top Intel CPU processor in such a small system, even overclock it, with any powerful GPU card you can afford.
> 
> All of them have realtek onboard sound chipsets, but none of them come with Dolby Digital Live support, don't know why. Only that Asus has DTS Connect encoding, the rest of them have THX TruStudio (Pro).
> 
> Yes, i could use an USB sound card, but i would like only one external device, that could also work with consoles.


 
   
  I looked up a motherboard size guide, and realize that I was thinking of the one step below Mini-ITX, which doesn't have the single expansion slot.
   
  Frankly, I wouldn't go with anything less than Micro-ATX (four expansion slots) for a small-form-factor system, if only because I refuse to give up my X-Fi Titanium HD. No USB device I've tried has all of its gaming audio capabilities. Four slots would be enough for a sound card on the far end while still allowing the graphics card some breathing room.
   
  If you want just one external device that also works with consoles well without sacrificing too much in the way of PC gaming audio support, I could offer you my Recon3D USB (which also decodes Dolby Digital S/PDIF signals for console use and offers chat mixing) for a low price. Interested?


----------



## Dead Ghost

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> If you want just one external device that also works with consoles well without sacrificing too much in the way of PC gaming audio support, I could offer you my Recon3D USB (which also decodes Dolby Digital S/PDIF signals for console use and offers chat mixing) for a low price. Interested?


 
  No, but thanks for the offer.


----------



## NamelessPFG

In that case, what are you really looking for?
   
  The Mixamp is going to fall short for PC gaming (and no DTS), the Xonar U3 can't be used with consoles, and I thought you said you didn't want to deal with the bulk of an A/V receiver, though if you do, you can probably find a Harmon Kardon AVR 254 or AVR 354 for sale on eBay or Head-Fi B/S/T, which are rare cases of receivers with Dolby Headphone support.
   
  I'm guessing that you're leaning toward a receiver and don't mind the extra bulk for something that's only going to be used with headphones.


----------



## Dead Ghost

Not sure, yet. I'm just counting my options. Recon3D could work, but i think it would be a pain to switch the USB cable, from pc to ps3 and vice versa, every time i want to use one of them.
  If i go the receiver way, i think i'll go with Yamaha and hope i will be satisfied with their "Silent Cinema" headphone virtualization, as an alternative to Dolby Headphone. Also, they have some low profile receivers that take a bit less space.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Wait a minute, I just thought of something.
   
  If you go the receiver route, how are you going to handle voice chat with the PS3? They're generally not made with that in mind.
   
  If it's not a necessity, then you don't need to connect the Recon3D's USB cable to the PS3 in the first place, just as long as it's getting powered through the USB port. That means that in theory, you could just leave it connected to both PC and PS3 all the time. (But it's best that I actually test this in practice, just to make sure there aren't any unforeseen complications.)


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> Wait a minute, I just thought of something.
> 
> If you go the receiver route, how are you going to handle voice chat with the PS3? They're generally not made with that in mind.
> 
> If it's not a necessity, then you don't need to connect the Recon3D's USB cable to the PS3 in the first place, just as long as it's getting powered through the USB port. That means that in theory, you could just leave it connected to both PC and PS3 all the time. (But it's best that I actually test this in practice, just to make sure there aren't any unforeseen complications.)





That's what I've done all along with my Recon3D. The USB stays plugged into the back of my (ATX) computer, and the optical plugged into my console (an Xbox 360). My Gigabyte motherboard, like many I assume, provides power through the rear USB ports even if the computer is shut off (to charge portable music players, etc). All I have to do is push a small switch on the side between PC and Xbox (the optical or 3.5mm jack input). The Recon3D's ribbon-style extension cord for headphone & mic are nice, but everything sits so close to me that I haven't bothered with it except once to test that it worked.

There are only 2 minor complications with that setup.
1.) if something is plugged into the optical port while the Recon3D is in PC mode, you can't access the PC driver settings. Easy fix: unplug the optical cable the first time you want to play with settings, and you can safely leave the optical plugged in any other time using PC or Console audio.
2.) When the Recon3D has power, the blue light keeps me awake in my bedroom. Easy fix: unplug the USB connector at the Recon3D unit's end at night, and plug in my cellphone to charge overnight which happens to use the same USB connector type (LG).

Dead Ghost,
I don't know of any other device besides the Recon3D that allows console hookup, AND acts as a USB external soundcard for PC (Mac and Windows). That was the main reason I bought it. You could try a receiver via Optical or HDMI, which is what I did before I got the Recon3D, but you don't get the full 3D surround setup possible from your computer, just a 5.1 mix, downmixed into virtual headphone. I will say my receiver's headphone amp section is more powerful, but it also is a big fat device (hard to hide) that loves lots of wires and uses lots of electricity.

I think the PS3 has an optical output... I'd recommend you just use that so you could leave your wires plugged in. Nobody on PS3 uses chat anyway, or at least wired chat, right?


----------



## Dead Ghost

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> If it's not a necessity, then you don't need to connect the Recon3D's USB cable to the PS3 in the first place, just as long as it's getting powered through the USB port. That means that in theory, you could just leave it connected to both PC and PS3 all the time. (But it's best that I actually test this in practice, just to make sure there aren't any unforeseen complications.)


 
  Chat is not a priority. And if i need it, i will use a bluetooth mic.
  How will you connect both the PC and PS3 at the same time, thru USB? USB splitter? 
  Quote: 





evshrug said:


> My Gigabyte motherboard, like many I assume, provides power through the rear USB ports even if the computer is shut off (to charge portable music players, etc).


 
  As far as i know, only Gigabyte boards have this feature.
   
   


> Originally Posted by *Evshrug* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> You could try a receiver via Optical or HDMI, which is what I did before I got the Recon3D, but you don't get the full 3D surround setup possible from your computer, just a 5.1 mix, downmixed into virtual headphone.


 
   
  Thru HDMI this won't be a problem, all channels will be used in virtualization, not just 5.1. HDMI has more bandwidth than S/PDIF and no encoding is needed, as i recently learned.


----------



## Evshrug

Dead Ghost (redundant?),
Replies in *bold.*


dead ghost said:


> Chat is not a priority. And if i need it, i will use a bluetooth mic.
> How will you connect both the PC and PS3 at the same time, thru USB? USB splitter?
> *I don't have a ps3, so I don't know if you can use a USB splitter that way. If PS3 has an optical out, I would just use that instead.*
> As far as i know, only Gigabyte boards have this feature.
> ...




Nameless,
I'm considering purchasing the Orange Box, again, this time for PC. Would be my third copy of Half Life 2, but I hear it can look even better on PC when maxed than on the Xbox 360, and perhaps it has 3D binaural audio? What'd ya think, worth it? One more vote for valve to make HL3?

I first bought HL2 around when Halo 2 was new too, then the orange box on the 360 for all the extras... A good PC FPS is very tempting, as well as a space starfighter sim (what was that privateer sequel? Freelancer or something?). Any other suggestions? Picking up Thief this Friday, would like info on that "surprise patch" you mentioned a short bit ago about helped enable better ALchemy support. 

Also, purely a curiosity since I don't have a Blu-ray player, yet my receiver decodes most DTS formats, do blu-ray movies include an option besides DTS? How often does the lack of DTS encoding cause you to have no audio at all? The only DTS movies we own are on laserdisc, LOL!


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Nameless,
> I'm considering purchasing the Orange Box, again, this time for PC. Would be my third copy of Half Life 2, but I hear it can look even better on PC when maxed than on the Xbox 360, and perhaps it has 3D binaural audio? What'd ya think, worth it? One more vote for valve to make HL3?
> I first bought HL2 around when Halo 2 was new too, then the orange box on the 360 for all the extras... A good PC FPS is very tempting, as well as a space starfighter sim (what was that privateer sequel? Freelancer or something?). Any other suggestions? Picking up Thief this Friday, would like info on that "surprise patch" you mentioned a short bit ago about helped enable better ALchemy support.
> 
> ...


 
   
  The Orange Box on PC? Do it next time it goes on sale. Since we're getting into the holidays, expect the Steam sales to be numerous.
   
  Just remember to set "snd_legacy_surround 1" in the console and point ALchemy to the installation directories.
   
  Also, that "surprise patch" for Thief and System Shock 2 adds native OpenAL support, meaning you don't even need to use ALchemy to begin with. Too bad you just missed a Steam sale for the entire series at $6.74 yesterday...
   
  Quote: 





dead ghost said:


> Chat is not a priority. And if i need it, i will use a bluetooth mic.
> How will you connect both the PC and PS3 at the same time, thru USB? USB splitter?


 
   
  What I'm saying is that if you don't need chat on the PS3, you don't need to have the USB cable connected to the PS3 in the first place. It just needs a USB connection for power, which you can provide through your PC.


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> The Orange Box on PC? Do it next time it goes on sale. Since we're getting into the holidays, expect the Steam sales to be numerous.
> 
> Just remember to set "snd_legacy_surround 1" in the console and point ALchemy to the installation directories.
> 
> Also, that "surprise patch" for Thief and System Shock 2 adds native OpenAL support, meaning you don't even need to use ALchemy to begin with. Too bad you just missed a Steam sale for the entire series at $6.74 yesterday...



What? ... Entire? YESTERDAY?
>_<

...
Thanks for the tip, I had thought about system shock 2 before, but never too seriously... If I was gonna play system shock 2, I'd finish the second Deus Ex game first. I remember getting stuck in that game but I forget where. Did you ever play the old Lucasarts X-wing and Tie-Fighter games? Lucasarts was sure on a roll back then.


----------



## Eric_C

Update: bought a Xonar DX, and it's my first time opening a CPU in 15 years. I *think* I slotted it into a PCI-e 16x slot because I heard bad things about using the top PCI-e 1x slot, plugged in power and front panel headphone out, and booted up. 

Been trying to install the official drivers from Asus's website, and these ones: http://brainbit.wordpress.com/category/uni-xonar/
In both cases the install seems to progress to 100% and just kind of hang there. Left it for 2-5 mins each time and no real progress... Is the driver installation supposed to take a long time at the end of the progress meter?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





eric_c said:


> Update: bought a Xonar DX, and it's my first time opening a CPU in 15 years. I *think* I slotted it into a PCI-e 16x slot because I heard bad things about using the top PCI-e 1x slot, plugged in power and front panel headphone out, and booted up.
> Been trying to install the official drivers from Asus's website, and these ones: http://brainbit.wordpress.com/category/uni-xonar/
> In both cases the install seems to progress to 100% and just kind of hang there. Left it for 2-5 mins each time and no real progress... Is the driver installation supposed to take a long time at the end of the progress meter?


 
  It's happened to me a few times with Xonar drivers.


----------



## Eric_C

So, just let the installation take a longer time?


----------



## genclaymore

You can could always install it in safe mode incase something is stoping it from installing in normal boot. It has happen to me a couple of times. Safe mode is what i usually do when that happens.


----------



## Eric_C

Thanks guys, I'll give that a shot. 
   
  Similar advice here:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1257431/trouble-installing-asus-xonar-dg-sound-center
   
  Good to know I'm not alone!


----------



## Evshrug

eric_c said:


> Update: bought a Xonar DX, and it's my first time opening a CPU in 15 years. I *think* I slotted it into a PCI-e 16x slot because I heard bad things about using the top PCI-e 1x slot, plugged in power and front panel headphone out, and booted up.
> Been trying to install the official drivers from Asus's website, and these ones: http://brainbit.wordpress.com/category/uni-xonar/
> In both cases the install seems to progress to 100% and just kind of hang there. Left it for 2-5 mins each time and no real progress... Is the driver installation supposed to take a long time at the end of the progress meter?




Interested to hear your updates. How much did the Xonar end up costing?


----------



## Eric_C

The Xonar was just S$123, which is ~USD 100?
   
  I had another go last night. I'm pretty sure I found the right 4-pin power connector (one of the spares from my mobo) but Win7 couldn't detect the card when I installed the drivers.
   
  Tried with both the official and the unofficial drivers, same result: "Please plug in the the Asus Xonar device" at the end of the install bar.
   
  Also tried uninstalling the device from my device manager...didn't seem to work.
   
  I guess I just have to try physically removing the card, removing the device from Device Manager, and then doing it all over?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Dead Ghost (redundant?),
> Nameless,
> I'm considering purchasing the Orange Box, again, this time for PC. Would be my third copy of Half Life 2, but I hear it can look even better on PC when maxed than on the Xbox 360, and perhaps it has 3D binaural audio? What'd ya think, worth it? One more vote for valve to make HL3?
> I first bought HL2 around when Halo 2 was new too, then the orange box on the 360 for all the extras... A good PC FPS is very tempting, as well as a space starfighter sim (what was that privateer sequel? Freelancer or something?). Any other suggestions? Picking up Thief this Friday, would like info on that "surprise patch" you mentioned a short bit ago about helped enable better ALchemy support.
> ...


 


 The Orange Box is definitely a great purchase, both due to getting all Half Life 2 games (including Lost Coast) as well as Portal and Team Fortress 2 (yes, it has become Free 2 Play).

 From the bits and pieces floating around, it does seem Half Life 3 will be a reality eventually, (as per Valve time) rather than a Half Life 2 Episode 3.

 From the moment high resolution, high AA levels and proper 3D audio is made available, Half life 2 on its stock form is already well beyond what console ports can do, but if you really want your mind blown, check how a game goes from 4 to 22GB and how it both looks and sounds (view on 720p):







  
  This Source overhaul can be found here: http://cinematicmod.com/

 Keep in mind that system requirements are far higher than what the original games have.

 EDIT: The full visual and audio engine update can be used without the new models, that are optional, considering that some people prefer the stock models.


----------



## RED-404

So I was thinking of going the line-out rout with a headphone amp.  No more than $150 USD
  The sound card is the one thing I skipped on this build currently I'm just using the audio from my Blue Yeti Mic which is not bad at all but it’s a little dark on my SHURE SRH840 headphones.
   
  My primary uses of audio on my PC in order.
   
  Voice chat = Mumble: This makes my Fiio e10 almost useless due to the non async USB "If I have no other sound playing it cuts off the first part of the first word of every transmission.”
   
  Gaming : I miss having the good positional audio I had in the past, [size=10.0pt]Rapture3D [/size]works but the games that can use it are rather limited. Also will this help with BF3 that game has some horrible positional audio is seems  to be a simple L/R panner with depth there is no discernible vertical possitionality. I can't tell if someone is on my floor or one above or below.
   
  Music: Aggrotech IDM Metal Classical and anything with a Chello
   
  Movies
   
  Whatever sound card I use I am going to have to use 4ft to 6ft extension cable to get from my case to my desk  this is part of why I was thinking of going with a desktop amp.
   
  Side note: I also have a iBasso D7 I bought it after the E10 Hoping to fix the mumble problem.  Before the D7 had really been reviewed by anybody. I fully regret buying it and I'm not selling it to anyone I don’t want to waste their money.  It did fix the mumble problem but it also has a lot of line noise that I fixed by building a USB isolator but is still has a cracking problem on all 5 of my systems. It's not a defect it’s a design flaw. It makes a great paper weight.
   
  Edit added more info.
   
  Update: I think Im going to go with a Xonar DSX and JDSLabs CmoyBB but a may switch to a little bit more analytical OP-AMP.


----------



## Eric_C

Happy update! I disabled my onboard sound, deleted the Xonar from Device Manager, rebooted, and the Xonar was detected. Installed the Unified drivers, rebooted again, and I'm now listening to Dolby Headphone from my front panel. I'm a happy camper.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





red-404 said:


> So I was thinking of going the line-out rout with a headphone amp.  No more than $150 USD
> The sound card is the one thing I skipped on this build currently I'm just using the audio from my Blue Yeti Mic which is not bad at all but it’s a little dark on my SHURE SRH840 headphones.
> My primary uses of audio on my PC in order.
> Voice chat = Mumble: This makes my Fiio e10 almost useless due to the non async USB "If I have no other sound playing it cuts off the first part of the first word of every transmission.”
> ...


 
  What make and model is your motherboard?
  The Xonar DSX comes with DTS, not Dolby.
  Are you ok with just using DTS?


----------



## RED-404

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> What make and model is your motherboard?
> The Xonar DSX comes with DTS, not Dolby.
> Are you ok with just using DTS?


 
   
  FacePalm you Sir are exactly right. I meant to order the DGX and not the DSX… Looks like it shipped…..
 So I'm going to be refusing a package on Monday. :-/
   
  Note to self: Never order stuff at 5AM….


----------



## genclaymore

Good thing you didn't actually order the DSX, that would been worst. You get the package expecting to see DGX but see DSX instead.


----------



## Evshrug

eric_c said:


> Happy update! I disabled my onboard sound, deleted the Xonar from Device Manager, rebooted, and the Xonar was detected. Installed the Unified drivers, rebooted again, and I'm now listening to Dolby Headphone from my front panel. I'm a happy camper.




Yay!
*Ode to Joy*


----------



## Fegefeuer

New Soundblasters are reaching Amazon.
   
  I'm curious to get one and use it under Windows 8, see how it performs but I am still skeptical about SBX. I believe it could be just a rename of THX TruStudio Pro and if you play under THXTSP you'll notice less sonic degradation than CMSS-3D but worse positioning.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> New Soundblasters are reaching Amazon.
> 
> I'm curious to get one and use it under Windows 8, see how it performs but I am still skeptical about SBX. I believe it could be just a rename of THX TruStudio Pro and if you play *under THXTSP you'll notice less sonic degradation than CMSS-3D* but worse positioning.


 
   
  I find it to be quite the opposite, the previous software package performs better on both SQ and positional cue accuracy, when compared to THX TruStudio Pro.


----------



## SleepyMellow

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> *[size=10pt]If you're looking for headphone advice:[/size]*
> 
> 
> 
> *-Buy a Stax Lambda system. You'll generally need $300-400 and a speaker amp for the cheaper sets, but I have yet to find a better headphone for gaming if you're looking for competitive positioning.*


 
  Where can I find this $300 deal? How do they compare with the [size=small]Koss ESP-950?[/size]


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





sleepymellow said:


> Where can I find this $300 deal? How do they compare with the [size=small]Koss ESP-950?[/size]


 
   
  Unfortunately, I don't know of any right off the top of my head. You have to keep checking Head-Fi's B/S/T section, eBay, AudiogoN, etc. and hold out for a deal. (I lucked out and got my SR-Lambda + SRD-7/SB set for $250.) Also note that the more affordable sets come with some sort of SRD-series transformer box, meaning you need a speaker amp (integrated receivers do nicely) to power it.
   
  But if you can get 'em that cheaply, you're getting a deal, all right.
   
  As for comparisons to the ESP/950, I'm not really in the position to do that since I've never listened to an ESP/950, but the general consensus seems to be that the ESP/950 sounds very much like an electrostatic while sounding very _unlike_ Stax in general. They say it's really fast (even by 'stat standards), midrange-centric while also having great extension, works nicely out of Stax Pro bias amps, but possibly a smaller soundstage than a typical Lambda. I am willing to consider it if I get the chance, but the days of ESP/950s selling for $350 shipped on eBay are long gone. (Not even joking about that...only reason I passed it up was that I didn't have $350 on hand at the time.)
   
  Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> I'm curious to get one and use it under Windows 8, see how it performs but I am still skeptical about SBX. I believe it could be just a rename of THX TruStudio Pro and if you play under THXTSP you'll notice less sonic degradation than CMSS-3D but worse positioning.


 
   
  And that's what kills it for me. I want positioning so accurate that I can practically shoot the enemy through a wall with pinpoint accuracy just by listening to footstep sounds behind the wall in question.


----------



## SleepyMellow

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Unfortunately, I don't know of any right off the top of my head. You have to keep checking Head-Fi's B/S/T section, eBay, AudiogoN, etc. and hold out for a deal


 
  Thanks for the quick and knowledgeable reply, but unfortunately I never seem to be in the right place at the same time as when the deals appear. lol.
  So back to looking for a comfortable set of cans that have AD700 staging but with some ~60Hz bass capabilities for under $200.
  I am not interested in a V shaped EQ curve, just a little thump - is that asking too much?


----------



## Evshrug

sleepymellow said:


> Thanks for the quick and knowledgeable reply, but unfortunately I never seem to be in the right place at the same time as when the deals appear. lol.
> So back to looking for a comfortable set of cans that have AD700 staging but with some ~60Hz bass capabilities for under $200.
> I am not interested in a V shaped EQ curve, just a little thump - is that asking too much?



Maybe? I've heard several people recommend a new headphone I've not heard called the Takstar, but I can't personally vouch for it.

Last night I played Oblivion with my Recon3D and AD700, it's amazing how strong the virtual surround works, even better than the Q701. I'm sincerely hoping the Q701's soundstage expands and becomes more accurate with an extra amp, but... If not, then I may just get an E11, use the bass boost, and sell my Q701. I waffle on wether the Q701 was worth it at 2x the price... But it (the Q701) is really an amazing headphone when used for music.


----------



## SleepyMellow

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Maybe? I've heard several people recommend a new headphone I've not heard called the Takstar, but I can't personally vouch for it.
> Last night I played Oblivion with my Recon3D and AD700, it's amazing how strong the virtual surround works, even better than the Q701. I'm sincerely hoping the Q701's soundstage expands and becomes more accurate with an extra amp, but... If not, then I may just get an E11, use the bass boost, and sell my Q701. I waffle on wether the Q701 was worth it at 2x the price... But it is really an amazing headphone when used for music.


 
  Does the e11 give AD700 some bass?


----------



## Evshrug

sleepymellow said:


> Does the e11 give AD700 some bass?




The FiiO E11 has two bass-boost settings.

Ok, if you'll let me give a personal analysis and opinion based on said analysis, but keep in mind that I don't have the money to test out every hypothesis, and your preference may vary... 

The AD700 is godly for competitive gaming. It's easily amped, it's very light weight with a light and IMO comfortable clamping force, has the biggest soundstage and _best_ directional positioning I've heard without adding a powerful desktop amp, very detailed, and I don't find the sound signature fatiguing for long gaming sessions. I don't think spending more money will get you a headphone that will increase your competitive edge in FPS gaming. 

All that said, it won't thump thump. The bass is there to hear, as detailed as the rest of the sound frequencies, boosting the bass with another device like the E11 or a computer EQ will make the bass louder and more prominent, but the reason I started looking for another headphone was that the AD700 can't get much... hard to pick the right word... body, authority, or weight. Everyone seems to use different words to describe this, some merely say "doesn't have bass," but that's not an accurate description either.

You can have a loud explosion, but it won't sound like a big explosion, if that makes sense.

It's a minor difference, and I do enjoy my AD700s. They sound lean rather than rich, but they have all the advantages above, and work really well with binaural/surround processed audio. If you have speakers or don't listen to much music, or if they would be your first pair of nice headphones, then I'd give the AD700's a strong recommendation at a bargain price. Otherwise you might want to pair the AD700 with something more "rich" for a more "musical" experience, like the Koss KSC75 clip-ons so you also have something fun to wear when out of the home.


----------



## Evshrug

roller said:


> The Orange Box is definitely a great purchase, both due to getting all Half Life 2 games (including Lost Coast) as well as Portal and Team Fortress 2 (yes, it has become Free 2 Play).
> 
> 
> From the bits and pieces floating around, it does seem Half Life 3 will be a reality eventually, (as per Valve time) rather than a Half Life 2 Episode 3.
> ...




OMG, HOW DID I MISS THIS POST?!
Looks awesome! kinda gets me in the mood for a replay  The "Inception" soundtrack inclusion was a nice touch.
I understand how some people feel about the stock models, Bernie (I think, your security guard friend) looks good, but I think the models used for Alyx and her father look like... Well they don't fit the characters IMO, to keep it polite haha. But the environment visuals are stunning! Benefits of a strong fan base


----------



## NamelessPFG

$115 shipped, brand-new X-Fi Titanium HDs from Newegg!
   
  Grab 'em while they're hot! It's a Shell Shocker deal, so I'm not expecting it to last longer than a few days.


----------



## Incrementum

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> $115 shipped, brand-new X-Fi Titanium HDs from Newegg!
> 
> Grab 'em while they're hot! It's a Shell Shocker deal, so I'm not expecting it to last longer than a few days.


 
  Haha damn I would buy the Titanium HD a day before it goes on sale =/


----------



## Evshrug

Hmm!
Too bad my job won't start earlier than sometime next week, and payday a bit after that. That's quite a sale though, is it about $35 off regular?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Hmm!
> Too bad my job won't start earlier than sometime next week, and payday a bit after that. That's quite a sale though, is it about $35 off regular?


 
   
  $35, give or take, after taking shipping costs into account.


----------



## Incrementum

Do you still recommend downloading the Titanium HD drivers you have listed in the OP?  Does that include the software interface piece of it as well?
   
  Know any good guides for setting up the best sound quality on the Titanium HD?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





incrementum said:


> Do you still recommend downloading the Titanium HD drivers you have listed in the OP?  Does that include the software interface piece of it as well?
> 
> Know any good guides for setting up the best sound quality on the Titanium HD?


 
   
  I do. Instructions on what to install in what order are contained within the archive.
   
  As for sound quality, that largely depends on whether you're using it for gaming or music. For gaming, you generally want to stay in Game Mode for obvious reasons. For music, you may instead want to opt for Audio Creation Mode so you can have bit-matched playback through ASIO, unless you use Winamp with the OpenAL output plugin, for which you'll want to stick to Game Mode. (Oh, and I never, ever use Entertainment Mode. No need for it.)
   
  The Crystalizer stays off. EQ and bass boost are set to taste, but do make sure that the sound isn't clipping, especially with volume set high (at 100%, any level of bass boost or positive EQ WILL clip, but at around 25-35%, you have a lot of headroom for upwards adjustments).
   
  Speaker setting within the X-Fi drivers should be set to Headphones while the Windows setting should be set for 5.1. (This will not degrade stereo sources in the slightest, from my testing. It sounds exactly the same.) Then you can toggle CMSS-3D Headphone on for when you're gaming and need a positional advantage, and turn it off for when you want a clean stereo signal.


----------



## FlavioWolff

I have a X-Fi Titanium HD, and I find THX Trustudio Pro (surround mode) much better than CMSS-3D. CMSS-3d makes the sound awfully thin and artificial, robotic-like.
  THX Trustudio works the same way: you set the game/windows to 5.1, the console launcher to headphones, enable the THX surround mode and go.
  The best part is that I never have to change the drive mode again. Its always on entertainment mode now.


----------



## Incrementum

Isn't the Titanium HD capable of giving 7.1?  Why do both of you suggest 5.1?
   
  Also without an external amplifier (directly plugging my headphones into my sound card), what's the best way to connect my headphones?  Should I just use the headphone jack?  I keep hearing things like RCA and optical mentioned but I'm not quite sure what they're good for.


----------



## genclaymore

No the Titanium HD do not have analog 5.1 outputs. The only way to get 5.1 out of it is to use Digital Encoders. Other wise the sound card is a stereo card. I think you getting the Titanium HD mixed up with the orginal Titanium that does support 7.1.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





flaviowolff said:


> I have a X-Fi Titanium HD, and I find THX Trustudio Pro (surround mode) much better than CMSS-3D. CMSS-3d makes the sound awfully thin and artificial, robotic-like.
> THX Trustudio works the same way: you set the game/windows to 5.1, the console launcher to headphones, enable the THX surround mode and go.
> The best part is that I never have to change the drive mode again. Its always on entertainment mode now.


 
   
  THX TruStudio Surround may impact the sound quality less, but it's dreadful at positioning by comparison (at least to my ears), and positioning is the exact reason why I use such technologies in the first place.
   
  Also, it's only available in Entertainment Mode. That makes it next to useless for me given that I still have a lot of DS3D/OAL games that only work right in Game Mode, since that's the mode where the X-Fi DSP's hardware acceleration can be truly utilized. That means either CMSS-3D Headphone, plain stereo (which sounds like total crap in those games), or if it's an OpenAL title, fiddle around with Rapture3D, OpenAL Soft, AeonWave, etc. and hope they work perfectly.
   
  But as always with binaural mixing tech, YMMV, and it's up to you to determine the balance between sound quality and positioning accuracy.
   
  Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> No the Titanium HD do not have analog 5.1 outputs. The only way to get 5.1 out of it is to use Digital Encoders. Other wise the sound card is a stereo card. I think you getting the Titanium HD mixed up with the orginal Titanium that does support 7.1.


 
   
  That's the only reason I advise setting Windows to 5.1 instead of 7.1 for HRTF mixing; the Titanium HD just doesn't support 7.1 at all.
   
  It's not that big a deal to me, really. The important thing is that front and rear cues can still be distinguished in games with software-mixed audio.


----------



## Incrementum

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> No the Titanium HD do not have analog 5.1 outputs. The only way to get 5.1 out of it is to use Digital Encoders. Other wise the sound card is a stereo card. I think you getting the Titanium HD mixed up with the orginal Titanium that does support 7.1.


 
  Ah my bad.  You're right.
   
  Nameless, so you're saying I can leave 5.1 on even in Audio Creation mode when I'm listening to my music (iTunes or whatever)?  I've been using the bit-matched option and I think it's making a little difference in sound quality.  What about the master sampling rate?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





incrementum said:


> Nameless, so you're saying I can leave 5.1 on even in Audio Creation mode when I'm listening to my music (iTunes or whatever)?  I've been using the bit-matched option and I think it's making a little difference in sound quality.  What about the master sampling rate?


 
   
  That's what I do, and it still doesn't sound any different from stereo.
   
  The thing about bit-matched playback is that when you use an ASIO plugin, the master sampling rate changes on-the-fly according to the source, so you don't have to switch it manually. This doesn't work for WASAPI exclusive mode when using Audio Creation Mode, however.


----------



## Evshrug

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> ...THX TruStudio Surround may impact the sound quality less, but it's dreadful at positioning by comparison (at least to my ears), and positioning is the exact reason why I use such technologies in the first place.
> ...
> But as always with binaural mixing tech, YMMV, and it's up to you to determine the balance between sound quality and positioning accuracy.


 
  Honestly... as I said before, I haven't made a definitive opinion yet, but I have yet to experience CMSS-3D to surpass THX TSP for positioning accuracy or really much directionality at all except during panning. Probably just one of those YMMV things. Does the first CoD have DS3D or OpenAL? I have that game for mac... Win8 Pro should be arriving soon from newegg, but I'm going to send it back because Microsoft is selling it for about half the price, direct, for people that used the consumer preview. I don't think the Win8 Pro deal is an OEM version, either.


----------



## bcpk

The Valve dev at the Steam for Linux talk mentioned in passing that they were using OpenAL. What implications does that have for gaming audio in Source games on Linux?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





bcpk said:


> The Valve dev at the Steam for Linux talk mentioned in passing that they were using OpenAL. What implications does that have for gaming audio in Source games on Linux?


 
   
  I sure hope that carries over to Windows...though as for Linux, we'll probably have to rely on OpenAL Soft or AeonWave's HRTF implementations, especially since Creative's Linux driver support is almost nonexistent. (No hardware OpenAL for X-Fi cards on Linux, for instance.)
   
  That said, I'm not too surprised they'd use it for Linux given that Loki Software (an old developer specializing in Linux game ports) specifically developed it to enable 3D positional audio in Linux, if I'm not mistaken with the API's history. It was only later that it got taken up by Creative.
   
  Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Honestly... as I said before, I haven't made a definitive opinion yet, but I have yet to experience CMSS-3D to surpass THX TSP for positioning accuracy or really much directionality at all except during panning. Probably just one of those YMMV things. Does the first CoD have DS3D or OpenAL? I have that game for mac... Win8 Pro should be arriving soon from newegg, but I'm going to send it back because Microsoft is selling it for about half the price, direct, for people that used the consumer preview. I don't think the Win8 Pro deal is an OEM version, either.


 
   
  CoD1 uses DirectSound3D, so make sure ALchemy's configured properly...wait, you said Mac, in which case that can't possibly apply because DirectSound3D, like the rest of DirectX, is exclusive to Windows. That means they either did all the sound mixing in software or refitted it with OpenAL.
   
  As you know, I'm not all that different from Mad Lust Envy when it comes down to speaking frank, unsweetened opinions about audio tech, though I can agree to disagree. I just want to figure out how people can hear the same things so differently; a lot of it probably has to do with individual HRTFs, the condition of our ears (still need to go see an audiologist), etc.


----------



## ash152152

Hey guys,I want to find a headphone under $150 for playing BF3 and watching movie.
  Looking for a comfy(for long time playing), good directionality(so that i can locate my enemies) and have good sound quality. Mic is not necessary.
  I don't have a soundcard right now, I will probaby get one later. 
  Hope you guys can give me some suggestions.
   
  Thanks guys


----------



## AKWintermute

Hello, I'm new to the world of hi-fi audio.  I've decided I want to get some AKG Q701s based on Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide. It seems like the consensus after spending the last week reading, was that the Q701s need some amplification. At some point I think I want to get to a Schiit BiFrost and Lyr, I just can't get everything at once.  On the gaming side I was thinking of using an Asus Xonar DX to save some money and outputting that via S/PDIF to a FiiO D3 + Matrix M-Stage amp or FiiO E17.
   
  A concern I noticed with the The Asus Xonar DX is that the specs say the Digital S/PDIF Output is shared with the Line-In/Mic-In jack, where do you guys who do the sound card + dac + amp with these cards plug in your mic? In to the onboard sound card (I thought you should uninstall the drivers before installing a sound card)?
   
  I read all the post in this form but there was some mixed information about the Asus Xonar Essence STX, I see that it has a separate mic in and optical out of course it’s more expensive.  My question with this card that I don't think has been directly asked or answered is if you can get the Dolby Headphone out of the RCA outputs?  I know the S/PDIF has definitively been settled with yes, but haven't seen anything on the RCA outputs. Since this card is more expensive I would run the output directly to an amp if I had to get this card enable to use a microphone.
   
  Questions:
  1. Where do you plug your mic when using Xonar DX + S/PDIF -> DAC -> AMP -> Headphones?
  2. Does Xonar Essense STX output Dolby headphone over RCA outputs?  (potential: Xonar STX -> AMP -> Headphone).
  3. Do I gain anything by using the D3 or E17 as a DAC over just going DX headphone out -> AMP -> headphones? (I thought this was a no, no because of double amping?)
  4. If I get a Xonar Essense STX is it worth getting an E17/M-Stage as a hold over until I can afford the LYR? (Kind of a Q701 specific question
  5. Does anyone use the LYR in this kind of setup or is that just overkill? It seems like a good bang for its buck based on reviews.
   
  Hope that is coherent. I have a lot of ideas floating around in my head, and its hard to put them all down on paper. Essentially I'm looking for a good setup for gaming 60%/ Music and Movies 40% with the Q701s. Besides the E17 I was also considering things like the Yulong D100 MII, NuForce Icon HDP and Grant Fidelity Tubedac II.


----------



## Eric_C

akwintermute said:


> 1. Where do you plug your mic when using Xonar DX + S/PDIF -> DAC -> AMP -> Headphones?




I don't use my DX in that config, but what you're essentially asking is whether one can set the DX to Digital Output + (analogue) Mic In.
This seems possible to me.

My DX is connected to the front panel in/outputs of my CPU casing, and I handle the input and output settings separately. The output I handle using Xonar Audio Center, included with the card, and the input I handle via Windows settings and/or Skype. 
My mic is always plugged in via front panel. And my output is either from the rear (i.e. the card itself, for speakers) or front (for headphones).

Can anyone else confirm the same lack of issue for Digital Output?


----------



## stv014

Unless you have interference or ground loop problems, why not use the analog output of the Xonar DX ? The FiiO D3 is a downgrade, and the E17 does not have a better DAC either. Also, you would not be "double amping" the Xonar DX, as it has no headphone amplifier, only line outputs. However, some of the amplifiers you listed are indeed known to be prone to ground loop issues.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





stv014 said:


> Unless you have interference or ground loop problems, why not use the analog output of the Xonar DX ? The FiiO D3 is a downgrade, and the E17 does not have a better DAC either. Also, you would not be "double amping" the Xonar DX, as it has no headphone amplifier, only line outputs. However, some of the amplifiers you listed are indeed known to be prone to ground loop issues.


 
  +1 what STV014 said.
  The Xonar DX comes with the CS4398 DAC chip , so whatever external amplifier you get, just plug it into the Xonar DX's line-out/headphone jack (green).
  (the Xonar DX/D1 line-out/headphone jack (green) is more like a line-out jack that pretends to be a headphone output).
   
  The Xonar Essence STX (& ST) and the Xonar DX (& D1) all come with almost the same audio processing features and all have the same audio processor, the CMI8788.
  So if you planning on getting external amp or external DAC/amp, just get a Xonar DX or D1 (save a few dollars and buy used).
   
  Make sure if you buy a used DX or D1, make sure it comes with the 3.5mm to optical adapter (for external DAC hook up).
  Otherwise buy new.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Sooooo, since the Soundblaster Z is out now: Who will be the first to unveil SBX being a THX rebrand?


----------



## AKWintermute

My biggest concern with the Xonar DX was if I could use my microphone if I'm using the S/PDIF output since the specs say that the S/PDIF port is shared with the line-in/mic-in jack.


----------



## Eric_C

Hm. Well, assuming you have mic-in by the FRONT panel, maybe that won't be a problem?
   
  Also, found this:
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/audio/48063-dual-onboard-xonar-dx-setup.html
  Seems that S/PDIF out would be 2.0 only on the DX, so maybe you shouldn't use S/PDIF at all?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





akwintermute said:


> My biggest concern with the Xonar DX was if I could use my microphone if I'm using the S/PDIF output since the specs say that the S/PDIF port is shared with the line-in/mic-in jack.


 
  Why do you need to use the Xonar DX S/PDIF output?


----------



## HalidePisces

eric_c said:


> Hm. Well, assuming you have mic-in by the FRONT panel, maybe that won't be a problem?
> 
> Also, found this:
> http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/audio/48063-dual-onboard-xonar-dx-setup.html
> Seems that S/PDIF out would be 2.0 only on the DX, so maybe you shouldn't use S/PDIF at all?




http://www.head-fi.org/t/592483/sound-cards-and-front-panel-of-pc-case

That thread states it all. It is possible to connect a sound card to a computer case's front panel audio jacks. Most have a connector on the circuit board. Some don't have it as easy, but it's still doable. The front panel jacks do happen to be noiser in general. Anyway, you should try your mic through both the front panel and on the back of the sound card to see if there's a significant difference.


----------



## Eric_C

HalidePisces, I'm not sure AKWintermute has any trouble connecting a card to the Front Panel. In fact, there's nothing in his posts to indicate he's even intending to do this. So, I'm not sure your post answers his question...


----------



## HalidePisces

He wants to use his sound card's SPDIF out. It resides on a shared multi-purpose jack. He also wants to use his microphone. His sound card's mic-in jack also resides on the previously mentioned multi-purpose jack. Thus, he cannot use that jack for both at the same time. Therein lies his problem.

He can attempt to connect his sound card to his computer's front panel audio, which has a mic-in jack. This would allow him to connect a mic and have a digital out at the same time. The downside with front panel jacks is that they are noiser. Whether this is significant enough to be an issue for him is something he needs to find out. If he can live with it, problem solved. If the noise is too much, he might have to consider a different sound card.


----------



## Eric_C

Oh. Uh, that's more or less the same thing that I'm hypothesizing, no? 
  Except I don't know if there's some software/firmware limitation that prevents the DX from simultaneously allowing S/PDIF out + Front panel mic-in.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





halidepisces said:


> He wants to use his sound card's SPDIF out. It resides on a shared multi-purpose jack. He also wants to use his microphone. His sound card's mic-in jack also resides on the previously mentioned multi-purpose jack. Thus, he cannot use that jack for both at the same time. Therein lies his problem.
> He can attempt to connect his sound card to his computer's front panel audio, which has a mic-in jack. This would allow him to connect a mic and have a digital out at the same time. The downside with front panel jacks is that they are noiser. Whether this is significant enough to be an issue for him is something he needs to find out. If he can live with it, problem solved. If the noise is too much, he might have to consider a different sound card.


 
  The sound card may not function that way, when S/PDIF optical is enable, the cards mic feature may not work, even when the mic is plugged into the front mic jack.
   
  I ask again, why use the S/PDIF port.
  You can plug a nice external headphone amplifier into the Xonar's Line-out/headphone out jack (green) and use the just about any headphone he likes.


----------



## HalidePisces

Yeah, I think we just started at different places.

You seem to have the Xonar DX though lacking an S/PDIF cable to test AKWintermute's problem. Though as you said, it likely depends on how the card is implemented.

Have you tried using your mic on the front panel and the back of the sound card to compare? Is there a notable difference? I'm a bit curious on this myself.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





halidepisces said:


> Yeah, I think we just started at different places.
> You seem to have the Xonar DX though lacking an S/PDIF cable to test AKWintermute's problem. Though as you said, it likely depends on how the card is implemented.
> Have you tried using your mic on the front panel and the back of the sound card to compare? Is there a notable difference? I'm a bit curious on this myself.


 
  My Xonar DX has been buried in a box somewhere for the past year, do not feel like searching around for it, to test the optical & mic use.


----------



## Eric_C

HallidePisces: I haven't tried it in that config, but I'll give it a whirl tonight. Heh, might be a bit weird though--my mic is attached to my headphones! But yeah, I'll try Rear Panel speaker output + Front Panel mic in.


----------



## Eric_C

Checked it. Yes, the DX can simultaneously output (analogue) via Rear Panel and take input (mic in) via Front panel.


----------



## AKWintermute

Thank you for checking that.  Based on the information provided, I went ahead and ordered the Xonar DX, Schiit Lyr, and AKG Q701s. I'll just go from the green headphone out to the Lyr, but its good to know that if I want to upgrade to an external DAC in the future I will be able to. Again thanks to everyone who replied.


----------



## SubSt8

Alright I followed this guide that you linked: http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=96663
   
  But I don't get an option for 7.1 or any of the other options except stereo and 5.1 
 Any suggestions?


----------



## HalidePisces

eric_c said:


> Checked it. Yes, the DX can simultaneously output (analogue) via Rear Panel and take input (mic in) via Front panel.




Nice! Did you notice any quality difference?


----------



## Eric_C

AKWintermute: I'm sorry! I forgot that it was originally you who wanted to know about the DX's input/output capabilities. Grats on the purchases! I'm sure you'll enjoy them much. Btw when the DX arrives, you might want to use these drivers instead:
http://brainbit.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/asus-xonar-unified-drivers/
  Third party drivers that are recommended a lot on the gaming forums, and I've been using them too. 
   
  HalidePisces: Not that I could tell. I just ran a Skype test call (the automated one), is all.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





subst8 said:


> Alright I followed this guide that you linked: http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=96663
> 
> But I don't get an option for 7.1 or any of the other options except stereo and 5.1
> Any suggestions?


 
   
  Just use 5.1. It's not that big of a difference compared to 7.1 when using CMSS-3D Headphone in software-mixed games.


----------



## SubSt8

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Just use 5.1. It's not that big of a difference compared to 7.1 when using CMSS-3D Headphone in software-mixed games.


 
  Which is fine, but why don't I get the 7.1 option? The page shows a 7.1 option, I want a 7.1 option. Lol. Any ideas?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





subst8 said:


> Which is fine, but why don't I get the 7.1 option? The page shows a 7.1 option, I want a 7.1 option. Lol. Any ideas?


 
   
  If you're using an X-Fi Titanium HD, it's because the card itself doesn't have any means of 7.1 output.
   
  It only supports two channels over analog (albeit very high-quality analog output) and 5.1 over S/PDIF when using Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect.


----------



## Haruspex

Fantastic guide Nameless, answered many questions i had. I want to buy a dedicated sound card to upgrade from my onboard which uses Realtek ALC888 chipset.
   
  I am on a limited budget and i decided between these two cards, asus xonar dg and creative x-fi xtremegamer. I know for gaming the latter would be better but i am kind worried about the performance in music. I know also that it doesn't have a build in headphone amp like the xonar dg.
   
  After reading this review, i am kinda worried about xtremegamer's music performance
   
  http://techreport.com/review/14500/asus-xonar-dx-sound-card/7
   
  I know this review is kind of old and the card is the xtrememusic and not the xtremegamer, but as far as i know they are very similar cards, and in this review at least things aren't looking very good.
   
  But in this review, things are way better (again xtrememusic not xtremegamer)
   
  http://www.insidehw.com/reviews/multimedia/1142-integrated-sound-cards-roundup
   
  On the other hand the xonar dg scores very good
   
  http://techreport.com/review/19997/asus-xonar-dg-and-xense-sound-cards/7
   
  I plan to use logitech g51 and Superlux HD-668b headphones.
   
  Short version: I prefer the creative xtremegamer due to better 3d audio support and cmss3d, the only thing that's holding me back is the inconsistency i see with this card in some rightmark audio analyzer results, and maybe the lack of headphone amp, although to be honest i don't know if the superlux hd668b need it. So i would like opinions about how these two compare in music and not so much about drivers and features (with the exception of the headphone amp perhaps) because i prefer the xtremegamer as i said.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





haruspex said:


> Fantastic guide Nameless, answered many questions i had. I want to buy a dedicated sound card to upgrade from my onboard which uses Realtek ALC888 chipset.
> I am on a limited budget and i decided between these two cards, asus xonar dg and creative x-fi xtremegamer. I know for gaming the latter would be better but i am kind worried about the performance in music. I know also that it doesn't have a build in headphone amp like the xonar dg.
> After reading this review, i am kinda worried about xtremegamer's music performance
> http://techreport.com/review/14500/asus-xonar-dx-sound-card/7
> ...


 
  refurb Creative X-fi Titanium (non-HD) PCI-E sound card, $49.99
  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102043


----------



## Haruspex

Thanks for the reply, i should have mentioned that i am not from US, it's difficult in Europe to find such a low price for the titanium, refurb or not.
   
  Both xonar dg and xtremegamer together with shipping costs about 30-35 euros, the titanium last time i checked it's double that and more, so it's out of my budget.
   
  I've did some further research about the xtremegamer and it seems it gets those horrible results in rmaa (especially in frequency response) due to some wrong settings the reviewers put.
   
  Still i have my doubts...


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





haruspex said:


> Thanks for the reply, i should have mentioned that i am not from US, it's difficult in Europe to find such a low price for the titanium, refurb or not.
> 
> Both xonar dg and xtremegamer together with shipping costs about 30-35 euros, the titanium last time i checked it's double that and more, so it's out of my budget.
> 
> ...


 
  I'm an Xonar fan myself, so i would push for the Xonar DG.
  Comes with a half-way decent headphone amplifier.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





haruspex said:


> Thanks for the reply, i should have mentioned that i am not from US, it's difficult in Europe to find such a low price for the titanium, refurb or not.
> 
> Both xonar dg and xtremegamer together with shipping costs about 30-35 euros, the titanium last time i checked it's double that and more, so it's out of my budget.
> 
> ...


 
   
  It's quite simple, actually. If you intend on doing any sort of serious gaming, any X-Fi powered card (except the XtremeAudio model) are significantly superior to any alternatives, such as Asus soundcards.
   
  Regarding music playback, either the XtremeGamer or the Titanium will be acceptable, and certainly quite a bit better than onboard audio chips.
   
  You just have to decide whether you want full gaming audio support with reasonable music playback capabilities or partial gaming audio support with slightly better music playback capabilities. Overall, I'd recommend you to wait longer until you put more money on the side and get an Auzentech X-Fi Forte or a Creative X-Fi Titanium HD, both easily surpassing the Xonar DG and the X-Fi XtremeGamer on gaming, music and movies.


----------



## LINKUZZZ

What is the best setup for all round PC gaming and movies?
   
  I currently have:
   
  Windows 7 Pro 64
  Auzen X-Fi HomeTheater HD
  Astro Mixamp Pro (2009 version) + Headset
  Sennheiser PC360 Headset (being mailed to me as we speak)
   
   
  Main problems I have with my current setup is that X-Fi was overheating, and it would stop playing sound. That's an old problem, and it seems like the cards overheating has fixed itself. No problem with it otherwise, I just don't know how to set it up (software settings/connections) to get the most out of it. I know some things, but I'm pretty noob about other audio stuff. I came here to do my research a while back, so its not all bad. I had to go through a lot of bulls**t on the interweb to get to real audio junky opinions. Mad Lust Envy's guide was a great help, but its only for console gaming setups. Thanks to u I can combined your guides to find a new setup. Few gamers have done informative audio guides like this one. The only part that is missing is a testing and recommendation section.
   
  The Auzen X-Fi HomeTheater HD isn't a bad card, but I'm thinking of buying one of the highend ASUS Xonar Essence/Phoebus card with the headphone amp. I don't have a desktop headphone amp currently, other then the headphone on my X-Fi soundcard. Also I like the fact that u get Dolby Headphone without needing the Astro Mixamp. Do the Asus cards do DTS, which is a common missing feature from these units? Seems like a sound card is a better solution anyway.
   
  Right now I'd say I'm a starter, but I like to move to a more audiophile solution. I'd love to get a all-rounder headphone like the Beyerdynamic T1 Tesla used for $850. Seems like it would be a very competitive and fun with the right amp going off Mad's list. Maybe I can pair it with the ASUS Xonar Essence One amp to good effect. However I don't really know, and that is why I'm here. I'd like some suggestions and recommendations.
   
  If go with highend, I'll also need to get the new version of the AntLion ModMic, with the mute feature. Currently sold-out, and on pre-order. Has anyone seen the mute version. I'm an MMO gamer, and having a mic is very important. I also play FPS games, so don't think I play WoW. Hell no, WoW sucks! I play Darkfall Online, and sound is very important on that game. For anyone that hasn't played Darkfall, its a very hard game to grasp. FPS Sandbox MMO with full loot, ship battles, huge 400+ man sieges, with an open world and skill based system. Darkfall 1.0 is shutting down however to open up for Darkfall: Unholy Wars, which is a re-launch of the game on Nov. 20. Do some research on it if it sounds interest. In Darkfall u have to sneak from tree to tree to get closer to someone. No invisibility bull, just plan player skill, so sound is very important. This is not an ad, I just love the game that much and want everyone to know about it. Its the only MMO I keep coming back to. Once u try Darkfall u will never want to play an auto-target MMO ever again. There is nothing like it. Planetside 2 and Firefall aren't even close.


----------



## Roller

LINKUZZZ, you seem to do more than casual gaming, and that's relevant in terms of recommendations. First of all, remove the Mixamp for your sound chain, it's doing no favors regarding sound quality.
   
  Considering the kind of gaming you do, I'd recommend you to skip Asus soundcards due to their partial gaming audio support (Asus gaming support is the same on all their cards, regardless of price). Since you were looking at Xonar Essence and Phoebus cards, that budget allows you to get the best soundcard for gaming currently in production, namely the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD, with full gaming audio support (this being quite important for FPS games, for instance). It's heaphone out handles headphones with impedance up to 330Ohm, but you can add a headphone amp to the chain if you like, something like a PA2V2, Fiio E11, O2 or Schiit Asgard, although that's not a base requirement, merely optional.
   
  In order to have digital encoding, you do require a soundcard, audiophile DACs don't have such support.


----------



## Haruspex

Quote: 





roller said:


> Regarding music playback, either the XtremeGamer or the Titanium will be acceptable, and certainly quite a bit better than onboard audio chips.


 
   
  This is exactly what bothers me, if it will be "acceptable". On this review i posted
   
http://techreport.com/review/14500/asus-xonar-dx-sound-card/7
   
  The xtrememusic (again as far as i know, very similar to xtremegamer) is on par with the *onboard alc 889a *(at least in rmaa tests), if it performs really that bad then i will look on to the most expensive models of creative (for later) or sacrifice gaming performance and get the xonar dg. However if things aren't that bad and it's just something wrong with this review i will prefer to get the xtremegamer even if i have to sacrifise a little to audio quality.
   
  Here is another review i found (this is for xtremegamer), on this, all tests are pretty good except the frequency response which it's really bad
   
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2007/07/01/creative_x-fi_xtremegamer/3
   
  However in the comments section one person claims that this result in frequency response is because of improper settings to the rmaa.
   
  Anyway, maybe i am thinking it too much. If anyone has any more experience with the xtremegamer, please tell me how it performs in music.


----------



## HalidePisces

@Haruspex:
Realtek's ALC889 is its second-best offering (Realtek's best is the ALC898). There aren't that many motherboards with that. Its impressive 108dB SNR almost edges out the 109dB SNR of most X-Fi cards. But 1dB isn't exactly significant and SNR doesn't tell the whole story. First, there's the matter of on-board vs. off-board. Audio chips integrated onto the motherboard are generally more sensitive to noise than those off-board (especially if you have high-powered graphics cards, wireless cards, and/or TV/radio tuners). Second, there's the gaming audio feature set. The X-Fi cards can do CMSS-3D, which is what you're really looking for here (positional audio). There's also EAX, but that's not as significant if you don't play a lot of pre-Vista games. X-Fi can do EAX5 while Realtek's offerings only go up to EAX2. The X-Fi cards also have a bunch of other less gaming-centric stuff such as Crystalizer.

If you're really worried, you can shoot higher and go for one of the two top-end X-Fi cards.

Option #1 is to try to hunt down an X-Fi Elite Pro (SNR 116dB). It was the top-of-the-line X-Fi card (and in some ways, still is). It comes with an external console box for lots of connectivity and noise isolation, but it uses the standard X-Fi SNR (109dB). Do note that it is a PCI card, so make sure your motherboard has a slot for it. I don't know where in the EU you live, but ebay.de has a pretty good listing for one right now.

Option #2 is the X-Fi Titanium HD (SNR 122dB). It is the current top-of-the-line X-Fi card and easier to find than the Elite Pro. Do note that it only has 2.0 via analog and 5.1 via S/PDIF. It is also lacks XP drivers, but not a problem since you're running Win7.

If you're still worried about music, you can connect your sound card to an external DAC.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





linkuzzz said:


> What is the best setup for all round PC gaming and movies?
> 
> I currently have:
> 
> ...


 
   
  The problem with a "best setup" is that audio is inherently too subjective to have a "best for everyone" set of equipment.
   
  I mean, I have a retrogaming PC with THREE sound cards in it (AWE64 Gold, Montego II, X-Fi Prelude) for specific sets of PC games (DOS, Win9x, WinXP-and-later, in that order), for starters. And then there's my preference for Stax Lambda-series headphones, which excel at the more competitive side of things, but won't please bassheads. (They do respond nicely to bass boost, however.)
   
  Just out of curiosity, did you ever set that X-Fi up properly for CMSS-3D Headphone to work as intended (basically, X-Fi set to Headphones, Windows set to 5.1 or 7.1), or do you still prefer Dolby Headphone in the end, hence that Mixamp? (I've actually noticed a few people with X-Fi cards for EAX 5 support while using Dolby Digital Live output to a Dolby Headphone processor meant for consoles, just for that very reason.)
   
  The reason for the lack of a testing and recommendation section, aside from that first sentence, is that I just don't have enough money to go around and buy every little piece of audio equipment, audition it, and then resell it at a loss. I'm already having a hard enough time trying to sell my Recon3D USB here after learning all I needed to know about it; that's $70 down the drain already.
   
  If you do wind up deciding to change sound cards, though, you have a potential buyer for the X-Fi HomeTheater HD right here. That's a card I'd certainly like to review at some point.


----------



## HalidePisces

namelesspfg said:


> The reason for the lack of a testing and recommendation section, aside from that first sentence, is that I just don't have enough money to go around and buy every little piece of audio equipment, audition it, and then resell it at a loss. I'm already having a hard enough time trying to sell my Recon3D USB here after learning all I needed to know about it; that's $70 down the drain already.




I suppose this is a bad time to remind you about the Sound Blaster Z-series...


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





halidepisces said:


> I suppose this is a bad time to remind you about the Sound Blaster Z-series...


 
   
  Considering the faulty gaming audio support it has, he won't be exactly at a loss


----------



## Peculier

Been using Astro A30s for a while, but the mic has completely died out on me and I'm looking to upgrade. I'm veering away from "mainstream" gaming headset brands like Turtle Beach (i have owned the X41s) and Astro (the 2013 A40 version reputedly has a LOT of mic problems), plus I trust Sennheiser's sound quality a lot more. 
   
  I do have the newest Astro Mixamp, and I'm considering getting the Sennheiser PC360 to use with it for FPS gaming on my PC. I DO have an Auzentech X-Fi Prelude 7.1 soundcard, but it's an old card that I never really used. I already have the adaptor to use the PC360 with the Astro Mixamp, but I wanted to know if this is a good setup to game with, or if there are other options.
   
  Hope this gets replied to soon!


----------



## Roller

The Sennheiser PC360 is currently the best headset money can buy. Paired with an Auzentech X-Fi Prelude makes for a very solid gaming system.
   
  The Mixamp is a device geared for console usage, and for that it works fine. Just don't use it with the PC.


----------



## Peculier

Quote: 





roller said:


> The Sennheiser PC360 is currently the best headset money can buy. Paired with an Auzentech X-Fi Prelude makes for a very solid gaming system.
> 
> The Mixamp is a device geared for console usage, and for that it works fine. Just don't use it with the PC.


 
  Okay thanks. I'll get the headset and stick it straight into the card.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





peculier said:


> Okay thanks. I'll get the headset and stick it straight into the card.


 
   
  However, I do think it would be a good decision to get a headphone amp. The PC360 aren't hard to drive, but they do benefit from additional amping, and you don't even need to get expensive headphone amps, with amps like PA2V2, Fiio E11 and O2 fitting the bill quite nicely. Just keep in mind the Fiio E11 can't be used while charging.


----------



## Peculier

Quote: 





roller said:


> However, I do think it would be a good decision to get a headphone amp. The PC360 aren't hard to drive, but they do benefit from additional amping, and you don't even need to get expensive headphone amps, with amps like PA2V2, Fiio E11 and O2 fitting the bill quite nicely. Just keep in mind the Fiio E11 can't be used while charging.


 
  Well I have an Yulong D100 mk2 DAC/Amp, but it's my necessity for a microphone that's making me get the PC360. Plus, I still have the Astro Mixamp, which I guess could be used, but I don't know how to judge whether its better than the Prelude in terms of sheer driving power. When I get the PC360 I'll try it both from the soundcard and from the Mixamp and see which one is better. 
   
  Thanks for your advice!


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





peculier said:


> Well I have an Yulong D100 mk2 DAC/Amp, but it's my necessity for a microphone that's making me get the PC360. Plus, I still have the Astro Mixamp, which I guess could be used, but I don't know how to judge whether its better than the Prelude in terms of sheer driving power. When I get the PC360 I'll try it both from the soundcard and from the Mixamp and see which one is better.
> 
> Thanks for your advice!


 
   
  Ah, in that case do use the amp section (just the amp section, not the DAC section) of your D100 after the Prelude output.
   
  Don't touch the Mixamp, it's the lowest quality component you have there, far below the Prelude and the D100. It will only lower overall sound quality.


----------



## zerocraft

Hey guys, I'm an audio noob looking to pick up a good headphone setup for my new gaming pc.  I went through this thread and the mad envy headphones thread and find the DT990 fits me best.  I am looking for good immersion, accuracy and also good bassy music use (edm/slow dubstep stuff).  My understanding is that I definitely need an external amp to drive these due to sensitivity, and this is where I am stuck.  I want to get just a dedicated amp good enough to drive the 990s (save as much $$ as possible for games ).
   
  Future upgrades not really a concern for me, and looking around here most of the suggested amps are running upwards of $125 (O2/ Fiio e17), seem to be geared for 600ohm/portability which I don't really need.  There are also a bunch that include a DAC, and I already have a dolby heapdhone capable soundcard for that (which is all that DAC is needed for right?) Was wondering if there were any better priced amps that would work well with the DT990 you could suggest.  Thanks for the wealth of information in this thread, been really helpful!


----------



## ZeeBAD

I need help guys cause i am going to buy a decent gaming audio system so help me please. I will going to buy one of two beyerdynamic headphone DT990 or MMX300 , which one is better for music and gaming?
   
  2 - if i bought one of them what kind soundcard i need to be overall good ?
   
  3 - DO i need to buy amp with the headphone and the soundcard ?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





zeebad said:


> I need help guys cause i am going to buy a decent gaming audio system so help me please. I will going to buy one of two beyerdynamic headphone DT990 or MMX300 , which one is better for music and gaming?
> 
> 2 - if i bought one of them what kind soundcard i need to be overall good ?
> 
> 3 - DO i need to buy amp with the headphone and the soundcard ?


 
  I would guess the DT990 would be the better headphone, as it is open.
  You can add any mic you want to the DT990, if you need a mic.


----------



## zerocraft

Would a Realtek alc898 (running dolby live) > MUSE 6n11 tube amp > DT990 setup work well?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





zerocraft said:


> Would a Realtek alc898 (running dolby live) > MUSE 6n11 tube amp > DT990 setup work well?


 
  Using your motherboard's built in DDL (Dolby Digital live) will output a compressed digital audio signal, that will be sent thru a S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) output (cable), requiring something at the other end that can uncompress DDL and then the digital signal would need to be sent thru a DAC, then sent to the Muse 6N11 tube amp.
   
  Recommend you get an Asus Xonar DX or D1 sound card (built in CS4398 DAC chip) and connect that to the Muse 6N11.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





zerocraft said:


> Would a Realtek alc898 (running dolby live) > MUSE 6n11 tube amp > DT990 setup work well?


 
   
  That setup does sound good, except the onboard audio chip. And if you want to do proper gaming, avoid Asus cards, they have partial gaming support and lack positional cue accuracy. Instead, get a stock Creative X-Fi Titanium, an Auzentech X-Fi Forte or a flagship Creative X-Fi Titanium HD.


----------



## HalidePisces

Nameless,

I think even if you can't give out headphone recommendations, you can make a list of games where positional audio and the likes are noticeable. For example, you mentioned the Thief games quite a few times in this thread already.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





halidepisces said:


> Nameless,
> I think even if you can't give out headphone recommendations, you can make a list of games where positional audio and the likes are noticeable. For example, you mentioned the Thief games quite a few times in this thread already.


 
   
  That is a good idea.
   
  I'll work up a list, including tips and tweaks to get better audio out of certain games (most notably, Thief 1/2, Unreal Gold, and Unreal Tournament have unofficial OpenAL patches that most people don't know about, and then there's the "snd_legacy_surround" command for Source engine games). I just have to decide what should go on it besides the usual suspects (Thief, System Shock 2, Unreal, Battlefield series up to 2142).


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> That is a good idea.
> 
> I'll work up a list, including tips and tweaks to get better audio out of certain games (most notably, Thief 1/2, Unreal Gold, and Unreal Tournament have unofficial OpenAL patches that most people don't know about, and then there's the "snd_legacy_surround" command for Source engine games). I just have to decide what should go on it besides the usual suspects (Thief, System Shock 2, Unreal, Battlefield series up to 2142).


 
   
  Bioshock, Doom 3, Mass Effect, Dirt series, Race Driver Grid, Prey, just to name a few. I can bring up a lot more later on, if needed.


----------



## Evshrug

I thought Metro 2033 had fine 5.1 surround on Xbox360, do you think it was scaled up on the PC?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I thought Metro 2033 had fine 5.1 surround on Xbox360, do you think it was scaled up on the PC?


 
   
  Both PC and console versions share similar audio paths, only that PCs can have much higher quality output devices.


----------



## zerocraft

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Using your motherboard's built in DDL (Dolby Digital live) will output a compressed digital audio signal, that will be sent thru a S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) output (cable), requiring something at the other end that can uncompress DDL and then the digital signal would need to be sent thru a DAC, then sent to the Muse 6N11 tube amp.
> 
> Recommend you get an Asus Xonar DX or D1 sound card (built in CS4398 DAC chip) and connect that to the Muse 6N11.


 
  These tube amps seem to be just as expensive as the Fiio e11, do tubes sound a lot better than Fiio?  I would rather go for a reliable brand than things shipped out of china .  I don't really care much about having to charge the amp daily.  Also I found one of these http://us.store.creative.com/Sound-Blaster-XFi-Surround-5.1/M/B0017QQQAE.htm lying in my basement, I believe these have CMSS 3d, will a USB card work better with the tube or e11 ?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





zerocraft said:


> These tube amps seem to be just as expensive as the Fiio e11, do tubes sound a lot better than Fiio?  I would rather go for a reliable brand than things shipped out of china .  I don't really care much about having to charge the amp daily.  Also I found one of these http://us.store.creative.com/Sound-Blaster-XFi-Surround-5.1/M/B0017QQQAE.htm lying in my basement, I believe these have CMSS 3d, will a USB card work better with the tube or e11 ?


 
   
  You can use that X-Fi Surround 5.1 with any headphone amps, be it tubes or solid state.
   
  Tubes vs solid state is a lengthy subject on its own. There are power, signature and accuracy differences between them, which is why it's not as simple as saying one is better than the other. Look around for additional info, and read this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/526275/tube-vs-solid-state-amps


----------



## pox67

Looking for suggestions please, I have searched the thread but not found this specifically.

After reading Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide I am looking at the following headphones:
AKG Q701
Senn HD 598
Senn RS 180 (wireless would be very convenient)

Soundcard: X-Fi on board sound on Gigabyte G1.Assassin2
No amp, don't plan on getting one.

Games:
MMORPGS (don't need mic though)
Action games (Borderlands 2)
RPGS - (Skyrim, Dishonored)

Current headphones: Tritton AX360 (5 years old...don't laugh please)

For reference I am using Senn HD-25-II with my mobile phone for music and love them.

From the new headphones I am looking for something with a great soundstage and positional effects. Something with a bit of bass wouldn't go astray as the headphones might be used for movies or music (vocals to punk to very bassy dubstep).

The RS 180 are very appealing for the no cable factor. I hate cables, in fact I modded my HD-25-II's to use a Bluetooth receiver most of the time for commuting.

Any suggestions would be great, thanks


----------



## zerocraft

Quote: 





roller said:


> You can use that X-Fi Surround 5.1 with any headphone amps, be it tubes or solid state.
> 
> Tubes vs solid state is a lengthy subject on its own. There are power, signature and accuracy differences between them, which is why it's not as simple as saying one is better than the other. Look around for additional info, and read this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/526275/tube-vs-solid-state-amps


 
  Ah thanks, I think solid state sounds okay for me.  I was looking up some more portables around $50-75, found e7 and this Headroom are on sale.  The e7 can be used while charging so that would be a big plus, and it seems to have more battery life as well.  Can I still use these with my USB x-fi (via the amp's aux-in), I think read somewhere that its not advisable to bypass the DAC?.  Headroom uses AA batteries which is kind of lame, but reviews / opinions say its of higher quality.  Which do you guys think is a better buy for gaming + bassy music ? (I will be using the DT990 pro/250 ohms by the way)


----------



## Evshrug

zerocraft said:


> Ah thanks, I think solid state sounds okay for me.  I was looking up some more portables around $50-75, found e7 and this Headroom are on sale.  The e7 can be used while charging so that would be a big plus, and it seems to have more battery life as well.  Can I still use these with my USB x-fi (via the amp's aux-in), I think read somewhere that its not advisable to bypass the DAC?.  Headroom uses AA batteries which is kind of lame, but reviews / opinions say its of higher quality.  Which do you guys think is a better buy for gaming + bassy music ? (I will be using the DT990 pro/250 ohms by the way)




Have you read Head-fi'er ClieOS amp round up? It includes impressions of both for amp quality. Last I read, the Headroom AirHead and BitHead (same amp, BitHead adds a DAC) are decent but of aging design, and even FiiO's inexpensive amps sound superior for less money. But opinions aside, consider some spec facts: the E7 is an amp/DAC combo. You already have a similar-quality DAC in your USB X-Fi, so that part you're paying for in the E7 is redundant/extra-but-useless. The amp section of the E7 isn't a big upgrade in power either, about the same as an iPod, FiiO E5, and possibly your X-Fi. In fact, I believe the E7 amp is basically the E5's buffer connected to a DAC section. I think I read that FiiO is releasing an updated E7 with the E6's amp buffer... about the same amount of power still, but a bit cleaner performance.

In my opinion, based on my research, you would be better served with a FiiO E11. Much more powerful amp than the E7, no DAC that would be useless if you are using an X-Fi's DAC anyway, rechargeable lithium battery, and only like $60 if you buy on Amazon from seller Micca with a spare battery (so you can keep a spare charged & ready). A good deal. If you can afford $100, your DT990 - 250Ohm headphones would be even better served by the more powerful E9 desktop amp.

Pox64,
I fully understand how wires can be an issue. Especially in areas of traffic or where you want to be a little discreet. Just decide for yourself if the trade-off of permanently allocating part of your purchase budget towards a wireless antenna, cheap built-in DAC, cheap built-in amp, cheap built-in battery, and the weight of those components is worth the wireless convenience. I'm going to assume based on your Bluetooth mod on your Senn HD 25-II that you have the modding skills to replace the headset's batteries when they no longer hold a charge. I personally have no idea how the wireless Sony headset you mentioned sounds, Sony makes pretty good products, but I wouldn't believe it sounds better than my Q701 wired into a decent amp/receiver. The Q701 also comes with two long lengths of detachable cable, so I have no problem lounging on a couch while the cable is routed mostly out of the way. IMO, the inexpensive flagship AKG headphone would be the clear all-around choice among those listed _for my tastes_, especially considering you already own a pair of wireless headphones. I can't tell you if they'll fit your preference for sound signature, but technically they are very capable and high-performing headphones.


----------



## raband

Hey guys - after a bit of an idea in which direction to head,
   
  I'm currently running (on my PC)
   
  Realtek Audio (898) => Mixamp (optical) => Sennheisser HD598's
  and
  Realtek Audio (898) => Mixamp (optical) => O2/ODAC (amp) => Sennehiser HD650's (gaming)
  Realtek Audio (898) => O2/ODAC (usb amp/DAC) => Sennehiser HD650's (Music)
   
  and I'm at a bit of a cross-roads with regard to which way to goto next.
   
  I can unlock the onboard drivers and get TruSurround?? (I think it was around $20)
   
  I can purchase a soundcard (am looking at the new Soundblaster ZxR or the Xonar STX) which could allow me to get rid of the mixamp and O2 amp for gaming completely (I believe) and use the O2/ODAC or the soundcard for music as I see fit (cards have >= 600ohm headphone support)
   
  Grab a cheaper card (will still need the amp for the HD650's)
   
  Are any of these options going to have a better end result than what I've currently got? I really wouldn't mind being able to take the mixamp out of the equation completely (free it up for my consoles and lappy)
   
  Which will give the best quality for music on the HD650? (O2/ODAC for serious listening sessions, which will not care what soundcard I'm using, but, rather for when I can't be bothered changing outputs)


----------



## Roller

raband, neither the Creative Z series nor any Asus soundcards are indicated for gaming. Get the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD, with an excellent DAC and high quality components, as well as having full gaming audio support (something the Creative Z series and Asus soundcards lack), then add the O2 to it.
   
  And yes, you should get rid of the Mixamp as soon as possible.


----------



## raband

Quote: 





roller said:


> Creative X-Fi Titanium HD,


 
   
  Cheers - I'll look into them.
  None of my usual shops seem to be stocking them - I guess they'll be getting replaced by the Z's?
   
  The X-Fi Xtreme Audio seems to be the only X-Fi that's common locally - I take it they're not ideal?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





raband said:


> Cheers - I'll look into them.
> None of my usual shops seem to be stocking them - I guess they'll be getting replaced by the Z's?
> 
> The X-Fi Xtreme Audio seems to be the only X-Fi that's common locally - I take it they're not ideal?


 
   
  The regular X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) models are replaced by Recon3D, which then is replaced by Z series. However, only X-Fi cards are recommended towards gaming, with the X-Fi Titanium HD being an excellent performer for gaming, music and movies.
   
  The X-Fi XtremeAudio is to be avoided since it lacks the X-Fi chip, something that significantly lowers gaming audio support, akin to what happens on the Z series and on Asus cards.
   
  The reason I recommended the X-Fi Titanium HD is because you were already considering cards that are more expensive (and with less complete feature sets), and you already have an O2 amp, which makes for a great pairing with the soundcard. I suggest you look around further or order online.


----------



## raband

Quote: 





roller said:


> The regular X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) models are replaced by Recon3D, which then is replaced by Z series. However, only X-Fi cards are recommended towards gaming, with the X-Fi Titanium HD being an excellent performer for gaming, music and movies.
> 
> The X-Fi XtremeAudio is to be avoided since it lacks the X-Fi chip, something that significantly lowers gaming audio support, akin to what happens on the Z series and on Asus cards.
> 
> The reason I recommended the X-Fi Titanium HD is because you were already considering cards that are more expensive (and with less complete feature sets), and you already have an O2 amp, which makes for a great pairing with the soundcard. I suggest you look around further or order online.


 

 Thanks again - I'll most probably put in a order for one. They do still seem available once I looked past the local shops.


----------



## genclaymore

Also headphone mode can be used with the RCA outputs on the Titanium HD which will aloud you to use CMSS3D headphone when your gaming. Also if you don't like the sound signature. Then its the JRC op-amps that are in the IV op-amp socket on the titanium HD. Most people tend to change those to Two LME49720NA's.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> Also if you don't like the sound signature. Then its the JRC op-amps that are in the IV op-amp socket on the titanium HD. Most people tend to change those to Two LME49720NA's.


 
   
  I'd personally advise just using the EQ instead. More control over the frequency response that way.
   
  I replaced those JRC 2114Ds with some LME49860s (basically the same circuit as the LM4562 and LME49720), and the result was grossly exaggerated bass and treble with recessed mids. I hated it, especially as a midrangehead/vocalhead, and immediately restored the card to its stock opamp configuration.


----------



## zerocraft

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> In my opinion, based on my research, you would be better served with a FiiO E11. Much more powerful amp than the E7, no DAC that would be useless if you are using an X-Fi's DAC anyway, rechargeable lithium battery, and only like $60 if you buy on Amazon from seller Micca with a spare battery (so you can keep a spare charged & ready). A good deal. If you can afford $100, your DT990 - 250Ohm headphones would be even better served by the more powerful E9 desktop amp.


 
  I did end up going with the E9 amp! I don't really have much use for a portable amp right now so figured dealing with battery based stuff was not worth it.  Have my USB X-fi all set up on windows so just waiting on the UPS to deliver today/tmrw.  Cant wait for my first real gaming/music sound setup haha.  I think I might upgrade to an internal card eventually to reduce the clutter of having the USB X-fi on my desk.  Before that I want to give THX Trustudio a try though, since I dont really play many old games (which seems to be the main drawback with this over X-Fi/CMSS stuff?), I'll decide on titanium/recon3d/Z after I've given both technologies an ear.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I'd personally advise just using the EQ instead. More control over the frequency response that way.
> 
> I replaced those JRC 2114Ds with some LME49860s (basically the same circuit as the LM4562 and LME49720), and the result was grossly exaggerated bass and treble with recessed mids. I hated it, especially as a midrangehead/vocalhead, and immediately restored the card to its stock opamp configuration.


 
  The reason why i don't mention Eqing to people is its a pain since you would have to fool with it until you get it the way you want it.  I used to be a op-amp roller before I switched to distree setup.  I liked the LME49720NA with certain headphones but not with others, I mention the LME49720NA because it was the only op-amp I could remember. Since I haven't rolled op-amps in a long time so i in up forgetting about the different ones I rolled that I liked and didn't like. Tho when I did it on the Titanium HD I was changing both the I/V and the two buffers or using the RCA out which used both I/V and Buffers, so i was doing a 2x LME49720NA with the default 2x LME49710NA that was in the buffer socket which even it out.
   
  The LME 49720NA isn't gonna work for every one, just like the JRcs you mention not working for every one. It just depends on the sound signature you want just like the OPA2134 which I hate which also drives me crazy.  I removed them quicky and replaced them with something else.  There are other op-amps that can be used instead of the LME49720NA's like the Metal cap ver which is better then the chip ver. I do know there was also alot of Good Linear ones that I can't remember. Including ones that had the sound signature that you wanted.  I just can't recall them as I forgot them all after I went to this Audio-GB NFB-12 just from not doing any op-amp rolling after wards since its a distree setup.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





zerocraft said:


> I did end up going with the E9 amp! I don't really have much use for a portable amp right now so figured dealing with battery based stuff was not worth it.  Have my USB X-fi all set up on windows so just waiting on the UPS to deliver today/tmrw.  Cant wait for my first real gaming/music sound setup haha.  I think I might upgrade to an internal card eventually to reduce the clutter of having the USB X-fi on my desk.  Before that I want to give THX Trustudio a try though, since I dont really play many old games (which seems to be the main drawback with this over X-Fi/CMSS stuff?), I'll decide on titanium/recon3d/Z after I've given both technologies an ear.


 
   
  The E9 is a solid performer for its price, however the O2 does have lower output impedance, which is preferable for lower impedance headphones.
   
  THX TruStudio is significantly inferior to even software based CMSS-3D, nevermind hardware based CMSS-3D. And while proper audio renderers are where X-Fi cards shine, so do modern games that run awfully 2D flat audio renders benefit from X-Fi cards over newer software based Recon3D and Z series cards, mainly due to the X-Fi-specific algorithms that improve positional cue accuracy in both height and depth, something that isn't found on other Creative card series or any other manufacturer.
  So, a cost effective and higher performing upgrade (over your USB X-Fi) is a base Creative X-Fi Titanium, but if you want the best gaming experience with a very high quality DAC, then the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD is the card to get.


----------



## pox67

evshrug said:


> Pox64,
> I fully understand how wires can be an issue. Especially in areas of traffic or where you want to be a little discreet. Just decide for yourself if the trade-off of permanently allocating part of your purchase budget towards a wireless antenna, cheap built-in DAC, cheap built-in amp, cheap built-in battery, and the weight of those components is worth the wireless convenience. I'm going to assume based on your Bluetooth mod on your Senn HD 25-II that you have the modding skills to replace the headset's batteries when they no longer hold a charge. I personally have no idea how the wireless Sony headset you mentioned sounds, Sony makes pretty good products, but I wouldn't believe it sounds better than my Q701 wired into a decent amp/receiver. The Q701 also comes with two long lengths of detachable cable, so I have no problem lounging on a couch while the cable is routed mostly out of the way. IMO, the inexpensive flagship AKG headphone would be the clear all-around choice among those listed _for my tastes_, especially considering you already own a pair of wireless headphones. I can't tell you if they'll fit your preference for sound signature, but technically they are very capable and high-performing headphones.




Thanks, the headphones I am looking at are:
AKG Q701
Sennheiser HD 598
Sennheiser RS 180 (wireless would be very convenient)

I guess my real question is would the lag in the RS 180's be noticeable while gaming?

My best of both worlds would be AKG Q701 with wireless adaptors for when I want wireless. Wired for gaming.

I have had a search around but there doesn't seem to be a KLEER transmitter and receiver plugin for speakers.


----------



## obazavil

Hi,
   
  I just build my gaming PC with MoBo Asus Maximus V formula, connected my mixamp... and is useless...
   
  Seems i need Dolby Digital Live (that my card doesn't support). I only have DTS connect, and Ultra PC II (that seems like surround for gaming and so on).
   
  My question is... 
   
  1) How good is this card? has anyone checked the asus maximus v soundcard (Realtek [size=small]ALC889)[/size]?
   
   
   


> SupremeFX IV built-in 7.1-Channel High Definition Audio CODEC
> - Output Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted): 110 dB
> - Output THD+N at 1kHz: 95 dB
> - TI 6120A2 high fidelity headphone amplifier
> ...


 
   
  2) I may want to go (if there is going to be a huge 3D improvement) to a dedicated sound card... i wanted to try x-fi titanium HD, but a friend of mine IRL told me he listened to both x-fi hd and recon3d... and that he actually liked much much more the recon3d, i read a lot about recon3d and many people says is crap, while other people says that for gaming is ultrab...
   
  any advise? hehe
   
  thanks!


----------



## Roller

Compared to the X-Fi Titanium HD, the Recon3D series is garbage for all purposes. There is no better soundcard for gaming purposes than the X-Fi Titanium HD, while also handling music and movies very well due to the very high quality DAC and components, something that isn't found on the Recon3D series.
   
  About your onboard audio chip, it's not as bad as other onboard audio chips, but it's still one, therefore with quality inferior to entry level soundcards.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





obazavil said:


> I just build my gaming PC with MoBo Asus Maximus V formula, connected my mixamp... and is useless...
> Seems i need Dolby Digital Live (that my card doesn't support). I only have DTS connect, and Ultra PC II (that seems like surround for gaming and so on).
> My question is...
> 1) How good is this card? has anyone checked the asus maximus v soundcard (Realtek [size=small]ALC889)[/size]?
> 2) I may want to go (if there is going to be a huge 3D improvement) to a dedicated sound card... i wanted to try x-fi titanium HD, but a friend of mine IRL told me he listened to both x-fi hd and recon3d... and that he actually liked much much more the recon3d, i read a lot about recon3d and many people says is crap, while other people says that for gaming is ultrab...


 
  Refurb Titanium (non-HD), is only $44.99, comes with DDL, but with this card you will not need the Astro mix-amp anyway.
  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102043


----------



## zerocraft

Is there a good guide for the settings on the X-Fi audio control panel ? Do I want to set the windows speaker configuration to 5.1, or enable "Optimize speaker output for headphones" in the Creative control panel ? Or both?  When I have the speaker config set to 5.1 I also get the option to select "Stereo Surround" or "Stereo Xpand" under the CMSS-3D settings, what do these do?
   
  edit: nevermind read the relevant bits in the original post.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> The reason why i don't mention Eqing to people is its a pain since you would have to fool with it until you get it the way you want it.  I used to be a op-amp roller before I switched to distree setup.  I liked the LME49720NA with certain headphones but not with others, I mention the LME49720NA because it was the only op-amp I could remember. Since I haven't rolled op-amps in a long time so i in up forgetting about the different ones I rolled that I liked and didn't like. Tho when I did it on the Titanium HD I was changing both the I/V and the two buffers or using the RCA out which used both I/V and Buffers, so i was doing a 2x LME49720NA with the default 2x LME49710NA that was in the buffer socket which even it out.
> 
> The LME 49720NA isn't gonna work for every one, just like the JRcs you mention not working for every one. It just depends on the sound signature you want just like the OPA2134 which I hate which also drives me crazy.  I removed them quicky and replaced them with something else.  There are other op-amps that can be used instead of the LME49720NA's like the Metal cap ver which is better then the chip ver. I do know there was also alot of Good Linear ones that I can't remember. Including ones that had the sound signature that you wanted.  I just can't recall them as I forgot them all after I went to this Audio-GB NFB-12 just from not doing any op-amp rolling after wards since its a distree setup.


 
   
  I often forget that I'm used to tweaking things until they're _exactly_ the way I want them. First thing I do when I start a new game? Go straight into the options menu and check the controls. (For FPSs and TPSs, I end up having to rebind everything anyway due to my Tribes 2-instilled ESDF preference.) Something sound off with a new set of headphones? Fire up the tone generator and play around with the EQ a bit.
   
  This tweak-mindedness extends to my choice of gaming peripherals, too. I generally demand something that at least allows custom mapping of physical buttons and axes to logical actions, if not support for a full-on scripting language.
   
  Anyway, audio is definitely a subjective thing, and maybe there are other opamp combinations that work significantly better than stock LME49710/LME49860 for all I know. I just haven't bothered to experiment since I think the card sounds fine in its stock configuration.


----------



## zaggynl

Hi, I'm looking for a soundcard replacement or amp/dac advice for the Sennheiser HD650 headphones.
As it has 300Ohm impedance I will need a decent separate amp or should replace my soundcard.

I'm currently using the following setup:
PC with Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer soundcard and Sennheiser HD239 headphones with Antlion Modmic.
I have a 5.1 surround set connected to my soundcard at the moment and my headset connects into the surround set, the mic plugs directly into the back into the soundcard.
Sound is good, mic is okay, can't up volume with "mic +20dB Boost" on mic as white noise will creep in.

I've read about a number of soundcards and amps but I'm not sure what to pick.

Have had issues with the Creative drivers, currently using the Daniel_k drivers and they seem okay.
Reading up on the Xonar Essence drivers they seem to have gone the same way.
I have zero experience with amps or seperate dacs.
Location: The Netherlands, Europe.


----------



## raband

zaggynl said:


> Hi, I'm looking for a soundcard replacement or amp/dac advice for the Sennheiser HD650 headphones.
> As it has 300Ohm impedance I will need a decent separate amp or should replace my soundcard.




If I was you I'd probably get an amp and feed the headphones directly through that from the soundcard.

I'm using the O2 amp to power my HD650's and they do so perfectly. (just need to get a soundcard - using onboard or mixamp til I can pick one up)


----------



## zaggynl

raband said:


> If I was you I'd probably get an amp and feed the headphones directly through that from the soundcard.
> I'm using the O2 amp to power my HD650's and they do so perfectly. (just need to get a soundcard - using onboard or mixamp til I can pick one up)




Thanks for the response, I'm not familiar with an O2 amp, what is it?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





zaggynl said:


> Thanks for the response, I'm not familiar with an O2 amp, what is it?


 
  The O2 (Objective 2) portable headphone amplifier ($155) can drive headphones from 16-Ohms to 600-Ohms.
  It is battery powered, but you can just leave the AC adapter plugged in and just use it like a regular desktop head amp.
  I have an Essence STX sound card, but I prefer using the O2 for low (like 40-Ohm) headphones.
  But I can just as well plug my 600-Ohm (DT880, DT990) into the O2.
   
  Usually someone has their used O2 for sale in the Head-Fi "Amplifiers for Sale" thread.


----------



## zaggynl

purpleangel said:


> The O2 (Objective 2) portable headphone amplifier ($155) can drive headphones from 16-Ohms to 600-Ohms.
> It is battery powered, but you can just leave the AC adapter plugged in and just use it like a regular desktop head amp.
> I have an Essence STX sound card, but I prefer using the O2 for low (like 40-Ohm) headphones.
> But I can just as well plug my 600-Ohm (DT880, DT990) into the O2.
> ...




Thanks for the tip, I'll look into that amp.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





zaggynl said:


> Hi, I'm looking for a soundcard replacement or amp/dac advice for the Sennheiser HD650 headphones.
> As it has 300Ohm impedance I will need a decent separate amp or should replace my soundcard.
> I'm currently using the following setup:
> PC with Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer soundcard and Sennheiser HD239 headphones with Antlion Modmic.
> ...


 
   
  What are your listening habits? Music (which genres?), gaming (immersive, competitive or casual?) or movies?


----------



## zerocraft

Speaking of movies, do you guys use VLC or something else for playback  ? Also how do I enable virtual surround on video playback? Will creative do that by default (USB 5.1 X-fi card)?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





zerocraft said:


> Speaking of movies, do you guys use VLC or something else for playback  ? Also how do I enable virtual surround on video playback? Will creative do that by default (USB 5.1 X-fi card)?


 
   
  MPC-HC here with a mild (~-12dB) general purpose EAX preset.
   
  VLC is a good player for people who want a prepackaged player and don't want or know how to tweak things to their liking. I prefer MPC-HC for that exact reason.


----------



## Evshrug

zerocraft said:


> I did end up going with the E9 amp! I don't really have much use for a portable amp right now so figured dealing with battery based stuff was not worth it.  Have my USB X-fi all set up on windows so just waiting on the UPS to deliver today/tmrw.  Cant wait for my first real gaming/music sound setup haha.  I think I might upgrade to an internal card eventually to reduce the clutter of having the USB X-fi on my desk.  Before that I want to give THX Trustudio a try though, since I dont really play many old games (which seems to be the main drawback with this over X-Fi/CMSS stuff?), I'll decide on titanium/recon3d/Z after I've given both technologies an ear.




I hope you enjoy your bang-for-buck setup!
THX TruStudio is pretty good, wish I knew how to record some live gameplay for you and others to hear. Otherwise, it's difficult to give the different technologies "an ear," as you say. I'm not going to claim I know what you're going to like best, but it does seem like different people prefer different headphone surround tech. Not only does that explain why there isn't a consensus on "the best sounding" processing/encoding tech, but it also reflects my personal experience not consistently matching up with the descriptions from other head-fi'ers I respect. Getting used to a particular tech probably also plays a role in how your brain interprets other techs. Compared to several YouTube tests on different games of different techs, my personal preference between Dolby Headphone, CMSS-3D, Silent Cinema, and TruStudio, is for THX TruStudio, but I think it's true that positional imaging may vary per person.

I see only 3 remaining distinctions:

#1.) Does the surround processing calculate height and depth calculations? (It would seem only X-Fi does this, but many games such as Halo have their own in-game depth processing and between-channel-mixing filters for increased imaging subtlety, anyway)

#2.) Does the hardware have high-quality components and signal quality? (Amps and DACs don't necessarily have built-in digital effects/surround processing, so this is a separate point to #1. For example, while Asus cards use "just" Dolby Headphone and EAX 2.0 effects, several of them have higher-quality components and/or signal-to-noise ratios than X-Fi cards of the same price-class)

#3.) Are a card's features supported and taken advantage of by in-demand games? (While it may be sad that developers are dropping support for full X-Fi utilization, it is a fact that newer games have been developing just for Dolby 5.1 support, giving CMSS-3D the same data to work with as Dolby Headphone, Silent Cinema, TruStudio, etc. Also, a surround processing algorithm like CMSS-3D or SBX ProStudio is software, whether run on the main PC resources or offloaded onto discreet audio hardware like a soundcard)

Assuming that games haven't taken full advantage of the X-Fi platform since the time of Battlefield 2145 and the first Bioshock, how different people prefer different sound signatures & games, and that there are examples of equal or superior specification hardware quality to the X-Fi Ti series soundcards, I think that it's a bit of an exaggeration to call everything else besides the X-Fi Ti cards "garbage." My best suggestion is to look for multiple video demos and come to your own conclusions, and I think it's great that you want to find out for yourself.



pox67 said:


> Thanks, the headphones I am looking at are:
> AKG Q701
> Sennheiser HD 598
> Sennheiser RS 180 (wireless would be very convenient)
> ...




A little KLEER Bluetooth bridge would be nice, and you could at least address custom amping and headphone preferences. Market opportunity! I think you have enough wireless-audio experience to answer your question about lag, but I've never read about wireless sound lag being an issue with wireless gaming headsets. I saw your list of headphones you're looking at; I only commented on the option that I own.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> ...
> Assuming that games haven't taken full advantage of the X-Fi platform since the time of Battlefield 2145 and the first Bioshock, how different people prefer different sound signatures & games, and that there are examples of equal or superior specification hardware quality to the X-Fi Ti series soundcards, *I think that it's a bit of an exaggeration to call everything else besides the X-Fi Ti cards "garbage."* My best suggestion is to look for multiple video demos and come to your own conclusions, and I think it's great that you want to find out for yourself...


 
   
  For gaming purposes and gaming purposes alone, non X-Fi powered cards, like Creative's own Recon3D and Z series, Asus cards and all onboard audio chips, don't hold a candle to what a base X-Fi Titanium can do for games. Going further up the ladder, Auzentech's X-Fi offerings are a clear step above, only short to the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD. X-Fi powered Auzentech cards and the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD are of very high quality, being at best matched, certainly not surpassed in any way by the likes of Asus, for instance.
   
  While games with proper audio renderers are where X-Fi cards truly shine, basic audio renderer games also sound better and more accurate on X-Fi cards, precisely due to the X-Fi specific algorithms that aren't found on any other card series.
   
  About the superior specification hardware quality of other cards of the same price class, that only refers to lower end models, for higher end and flagship models certainly don't fall under that generalization.


----------



## zerocraft

Quote: 





roller said:


> MPC-HC here with a mild (~-12dB) general purpose EAX preset.
> 
> VLC is a good player for people who want a prepackaged player and don't want or know how to tweak things to their liking. I prefer MPC-HC for that exact reason.


 
  Ah I do have MPC as well that will do.  Do you configure EAX preset via the Creative console ?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





zerocraft said:


> Ah I do have MPC as well that will do.  Do you configure EAX preset via the Creative console ?


 
   
  Both Creative Console Launcher and Creative Audio Control Panel have EAX configurations. I personally use Audio Control Panel because it's a bit more lightweight and everything I want configured on Console Launcher had already been configured, so I have no need to use it.


----------



## crzycuyler

I am finally purchasing parts to build my computer, and now it is time to pick a sound card. A while back I tried to follow the material presented to me by NamelessPFG, but a lot of it went over my head. If I list my current computer parts and choice of games, would someone suggest knowledgeably which card to invest in? Within reason, money is no object. This is a purely gaming computer.
   
  Processor: 3770K
  Motherboard: DZ77GA-70K
  Storage: Intel 520 Series 180GB
  GPU: Galaxy GTX 670 4GB
  Case: Haf XB
  Memory: 2 x 8 Corsair DDRs-1600
  OS: Undecided (Windows 7 vs Windows 8)
  (the rest of the parts are undecided)
   
  Games I will play (largely from first preference to last):
  -Fallout 3
  -Fallout: New Vegas
  -TES III: Morrowind
  -TES IV: Oblivion
  -TES V: Skyrim
  -StarCraft II (and orignal)
  -Bioshock series
  -Borderlands series, etc.
   
  I will be investing in a very nice set of headphones for gaming as well. Two of my options due to personal hook ups are the Sennheiser HD700 (a strong choice for directionality, correct?) and the Audio Technica W1000X (good music/games closed headphone, good bass).
   
  Again, within reason, what sound card should I buy? I want total immersion in the Fallout and The Elder Scrolls games.
   
  I will utilize my setup in two ways:
  -(primary use of the card) Headphones with my monitor
  -(secondary us of the card) Surround sound with my TV and surround sound speakers (AVR-3312)
   
  To sum up my questions, what is the best sound card to go with considering my needs (the use of nice headphones and surround sound and the immersion in described Bethesda titles). Also What OS do I go with?
   
  I know, a lot of questions... Anyone willing to answer is an absolute champ!
   
  Thanks!


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> I am finally purchasing parts to build my computer, and now it is time to pick a sound card. A while back I tried to follow the material presented to me by NamelessPFG, but a lot of it went over my head. If I list my current computer parts and choice of games, would someone suggest knowledgeably which card to invest in? Within reason, money is no object. This is a purely gaming computer.
> 
> OS: Undecided (Windows 7 vs Windows 8)
> (the rest of the parts are undecided)
> ...


 
  As one of you headphones, ATH-A1000X, is only 42-Ohms, you will want to get an external headphone amplifier with a very low impedance, to connect to your computer's sound card.
   
  The Creative Ti-HD (Titanium HD) sound card comes with the most gaming support, $125 currently at Amazon.
  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0041OUA38?tag=bountii-20&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER
   
  Anyway, external head amps wise just get the O2 (Objective 2) portable headphone amplifier ($155), can drive headphones from 16-Ohm to 600-Ohm and works just like a normal AC powered desktop amp.
  Just plug it into the Ti-HD's RCA jacks.
   
  For watching movies (like Blu-ray) with the speakers, an HDMI connection from the graphics card to the Denon receiver, then HDMI from Denon receiver to TV, will give you the best sound.
  For gaming with the speakers, you can connect to the receiver using using HDMI or optical, just use whichever connection works best.
   
  I would suggest just sticking with Windows 7 for now. Wait on Win 8 at least until Microsoft comes out with a major service pack for it (just to be safe).


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> I am finally purchasing parts to build my computer, and now it is time to pick a sound card. A while back I tried to follow the material presented to me by NamelessPFG, but a lot of it went over my head. If I list my current computer parts and choice of games, would someone suggest knowledgeably which card to invest in? Within reason, money is no object. This is a purely gaming computer.
> 
> Processor: 3770K
> Motherboard: DZ77GA-70K
> ...


 
   
  Since the main consideration of your PC is gaming, then the best soundcard for that purpose currently in production is the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD, with a very high quality DAC and components, as well as full gaming audio support.
   
  A good addition to the soundcard is a desktop amp like an O2 or a Schiit Asgard.
   
  About the OS, I do recommend Windows 8 Pro, given your hardware specs. It is more secure, faster and more responsive, and will put your hardware to proper use. You can look over the Windows 8 thread around here for more information regarding compatibility, performance and tweaking: http://www.head-fi.org/t/631736/windows-8
   
   
  And PurpleAngel, I see no point in shortening a card's name, especially since your cards' names haven't been shortened.


----------



## obazavil

Hi,
   
  I'm using Win8 Pro.
   
  So far, is very fast, and no problem with any game so far (BF3, Dirt 3, F1 2012, Mirror's Edge, and some others). 
   
  All drivers installing properly (CSW Wheel, n52te)...
   
  Read that thread and give it a try.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





roller said:


> And PurpleAngel, I see no point in shortening a card's name, especially since your cards' names haven't been shortened.


 
  Sometime when I'm listing several Xonar cards at the same time, I just use the model number.
  Sometimes I will list the TiHD as the "Creative X-Fi Titanium HD", I'm not the first one to use Ti-HD & TiHD.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Sometime when I'm listing several Xonar cards at the same time, I just use the model number.
> Sometimes I will list the TiHD as the "Creative X-Fi Titanium HD", I'm not the first one to use Ti-HD & TiHD.


 
   
  Good for you.


----------



## crzycuyler

Thanks for the advice. I'm sure I'll have more questions later, but I will be buying the Titanium HD for now.


----------



## zerocraft

Hey guys, back with a few more questions after a couple of days of awesome listening and tweaking  
  I think I am all set gaming wise, figured out the ins and outs of cmss3d, windows settings and alchemy.  Been exploring more on music now.  I noticed that with CMSS enabled I get a pretty faint white noise, not noticeable on heavy stuff like dubstep, but is kinda distracting with classical / acoustic tracks.  Do you guys usually leave CMSS on for music ? Any way to get rid of the white noise? 
   
  Secondly, I like how the mid range bass sounds quite a bit, but playing around with the bass boost in creative, I noticed 3-4db with a 60hz cut-off improved the 'rumble' that I love so much in older dubstep tracks from skream/benga/caspa/rusko. Question here is just that will this possibly damage anything, or is there a better way to improve the low sub-bass sound?  I have never used a headphone amplifier before, so I don't really know what the limits(volume / EQ) and tradeoffs are.
  --
  Cant edit my signature yet so just putting my setup here:
  Beyerdynamic DT990/250ohm -> Fiio E9 -> X-fi Surround 5.1 USB -> Windows 7x64 (Intel i3570k, 16gb 1866mhz, GTX670)


----------



## Roller

I personally disable almost everything (soundcard enhancements, I mean) when playing music, and certainly don't enable CMSS-3D because, just like all software surround virtualization techs, it adds an unnatural coating to sound which degrades the original signal, honestly.
   
  If you were exceeding the limits of your source/DAC/headphones, you would hear audible issues. There's no problem with using bass boost, as long as it's reasonable tweaking, just like when EQing.


----------



## Evshrug

roller said:


> For gaming purposes and gaming purposes alone, non X-Fi powered cards, like Creative's own Recon3D and Z series, Asus cards and all onboard audio chips, don't hold a candle to what a base X-Fi Titanium can do for games. Going further up the ladder, Auzentech's X-Fi offerings are a clear step above, only short to the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD. X-Fi powered Auzentech cards and the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD are of very high quality, being at best matched, certainly not surpassed in any way by the likes of Asus, for instance.
> 
> While games with proper audio renderers are where X-Fi cards truly shine, basic audio renderer games also sound better and more accurate on X-Fi cards, precisely due to the X-Fi specific algorithms that aren't found on any other card series.
> 
> About the superior specification hardware quality of other cards of the same price class, that only refers to lower end models, for higher end and flagship models certainly don't fall under that generalization.







roller said:


> Since the main consideration of your PC is gaming, then the best soundcard for that purpose currently in production is the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD, with a very high quality DAC and components, as well as full gaming audio support.
> 
> And PurpleAngel, I see no point in shortening a card's name, especially since your cards' names haven't been shortened.



So what if Asus picked shorter names for their cards, it's simply that typing "Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium PCI-e Sound Card" each time is unnecessary, since people have been following along well so far. Would a rose not smell as sweet, if called by any other name?



roller said:


> Good for you.




Saved you the trouble of repeating yourself, in good humor 
But seriously, the "true" X-Fi cards may be the only ones with "full" EAX 5.0 and OpenAL/ALchemy features, but that doesn't change the fact that OpenAL and EAX have mostly been dropped by game developers in favor of their own in-game processing. For example, has anything that's been released in the last two years featured native OpenAL support? Does Bethesda's RPGs use EAX 5.0, and not have environmental "cave-like" sounds anyway from in-game processing as an alternative? Does even Bioshock, a game with fantastic audio design from the peak era of OpenAL and EAX, have really much need for accurate height imaging? Borderlands sounds like it does without help from X-Fi "exclusive" APIs. And how much do "X-Fi Only" features help in-game cutscenes, movies, and music? Seems gamers have to go all the way back to Battlefield 2 to make the most of X-Fi.

Creative's X-Fi products are good, don't take me wrong, but their gaming superiority is only ahead by an eyebrow, and their significance diminishes as new games abandon Creative's proprietary or old APIs. Meanwhile, the more powerful amps and better SNRs of alternative cards will always be a differentiating feature. I don't see many other people or reviews taking as hard a stance on promoting the Ti HD, not even the company that created it. The Ti HD certainly didn't bring Creative back into profit margins as a "must-have" item. You may feel frustrated that I'm offering a different perspective, an unfortunate emotional side effect, but I'm only making a point that the future of gaming audio may require a reevaluation of benefits and value-return. Thanks for reading this far, I hope that you found this mildly stimulating, and realize that this post isn't a personal attack on you, but rather "will the Ti HD still be the clear choice as the gaming industry moves forward?"

Also, it's interesting to note that Creative now advertises the Ti HD with the THX TruStudio Pro processing instead of CMSS-3D. Like I've said before, TruStudio, CMSS-3D, Dolby Headphone, Etc, these days the choice between these processing techniques is mainly down to taste (and availability).


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> So what if Asus picked shorter names for their cards, it's simply that typing "Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium PCI-e Sound Card" each time is unnecessary, since people have been following along well so far. Would a rose not smell as sweet, if called by any other name?
> Saved you the trouble of repeating yourself, in good humor
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  What if? As interesting as it might be, Asus didn't pick such.
   
  Real X-Fi cards (real, as in having the X-Fi chip and not a software based card like the XtremeAudio) not only have the entire EAX version support, hardware OpenAL, but also have X-Fi specific algorithms that work independently of audio renderers used, something that non-X-Fi cards lack.
   
  Their gaming superiority has always been present and there isn't a shred of real competition to even match them, nevermind surpassing, with the only time where real competition surfaced was around the Aureal time, which ended not long after due to Creative acquiring the company. But feel free to present a single card that performs better in games, other than X-Fi based cards (such as Creative X-Fi Titanium, Auzentech X-Fi Forte and Creative X-Fi Titanium HD). Please, humor me.
   
  The point being that for years, publicized features target less than ideally informed markets, with the Titanium HD having CMSS-3D where it matters, namely in games through enabling Game Mode, which then enables all hardware acceleration that works with and without proper audio renderers.
   
  EDIT: Forgot to add that not only does Creative fully support EAX, but it also does it purely through hardware, which results in superior sound effects and positional cues. This is merely an addendum, mind you.
   
  Also, I appreciate substantiated opinions, regardless of whether they agree or disagree with my views, as that can lead to constructive discussions


----------



## fauaad

What would be the best way to improve my laptop's sound quality in a $40 budget? I have a JVC RX700 and VSonic GR02, which I use for movies and music, respectively. I searched around and saw that the ASUS Xonar U3 had decent reviews. Would that be a big enough upgrade from my laptop's sound quality to make it worth purchasing? Or is there something better that I can get within my budget?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





fauaad said:


> What would be the best way to improve my laptop's sound quality in a $40 budget? I have a JVC RX700 and VSonic GR02, which I use for movies and music, respectively. I searched around and saw that the ASUS Xonar U3 had decent reviews. Would that be a big enough upgrade from my laptop's sound quality to make it worth purchasing? Or is there something better that I can get within my budget?


 
   
  No gaming done at all? Then the Asus Xonar U3 is a good option, better than your laptop's onboard audio chip. If you intended on gaming, I'd recommend the Creative X-Fi Go! over the Xonar U3. Also, both the Xonar U3 and the X-Fi Go! have processing options that can improve movies and music (if you like to adjusting sound, that is). Alternatively, you can get generic USB DACs that have no additional software features at all, but might have different connectivity options and/or different driving capabilities.


----------



## fauaad

Quote: 





roller said:


> No gaming done at all? Then the Asus Xonar U3 is a good option, better than your laptop's onboard audio chip. If you intended on gaming, I'd recommend the Creative X-Fi Go! over the Xonar U3. Also, both the Xonar U3 and the X-Fi Go! have processing options that can improve movies and music (if you like to adjusting sound, that is). Alternatively, you can get generic USB DACs that have no additional software features at all, but might have different connectivity options and/or different driving capabilities.


 
   
  Well, I play DotA but I don't really think I need a soundcard for that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  And could you link one of these 'generic' USB DACs? Would they be an improvement over the on-board audio?


----------



## Dead Ghost

Anyone has any gaming experience with "DTS Ultra PC II", found on some expensive Asus motherboards (with realtek sound)? It's advertised as capable of virtual headphone surround and i'm wondering how good the effect is, compared to Dolby Headphone, for example, in modern games.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





fauaad said:


> Well, I play DotA but I don't really think I need a soundcard for that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Honestly, the lowest you should aim is either the Xonar U3 or the X-Fi Go!, anything below is similar or inferior to onboard audio chips.


----------



## fauaad

Quote: 





roller said:


> Honestly, the lowest you should aim is either the Xonar U3 or the X-Fi Go!, anything below is similar or inferior to onboard audio chips.


 
   
  Okay. I guess the U3 it is then. It would make a noticeable improvement, right? Oh, and does it require a lot of resources? My laptop is a bit outdated.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





fauaad said:


> Okay. I guess the U3 it is then. It would make a noticeable improvement, right? Oh, and does it require a lot of resources? My laptop is a bit outdated.


 
   
  It's not that outdated if you can play DotA 
   
  What are your hardware and software specs?


----------



## fauaad

Quote: 





roller said:


> It's not that outdated if you can play DotA
> 
> What are your hardware and software specs?


 
   
  A 2.4 Core 2 Duo, 2GB RAM, crappy built in GPU. The processor usage shoots up to 70-80% at times when I'm playing DotA.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





fauaad said:


> A 2.4 Core 2 Duo, 2GB RAM, crappy built in GPU. The processor usage shoots up to 70-80% at times when I'm playing DotA.


 
   
  Please post a CPU-Z screenshot, as well as a GPU-Z screenshot. If you do have the IGP I imagine, I just might be able to provide a couple of hardware-specific tools and modded drivers to improve your gaming performance.


----------



## fauaad

Quote: 





roller said:


> Please post a CPU-Z screenshot, as well as a GPU-Z screenshot. If you do have the IGP I imagine, I just might be able to provide a couple of hardware-specific tools and modded drivers to improve your gaming performance.


 
   
  Thanks for your offer, but its okay. I don't really game much besides DotA. And I'm gonna get a new laptop soon, anyway. My only concern was that my laptop might bottleneck the U3 somehow.


----------



## crzycuyler

Does anyone here have experience with Oblivion or Fallout 3 with the Titanium HD card? I have been told it is capable of the most impressive sound queues such as near perfect height, distance, and angle. Is this true and is it convincing? I want to disappear into the Capital Wasteland and explore a few dungeons like I'm there!


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> Does anyone here have experience with Oblivion or Fallout 3 with the Titanium HD card? I have been told it is capable of the most impressive sound queues such as near perfect height, distance, and angle. Is this true and is it convincing? I want to disappear into the Capital Wasteland and explore a few dungeons like I'm there!


 
   
  Both games are quite good examples of how running a soundcard with full gaming support can dramatically improve immersion and positional cue accuracy. Both games have DirectSound3D as the audio renderer, being properly wrapped to OpenAL, and providing a very good aural experience.


----------



## crzycuyler

Quote: 





roller said:


> Both games are quite good examples of how running a soundcard with full gaming support can dramatically improve immersion and positional cue accuracy. Both games have DirectSound3D as the audio renderer, being properly wrapped to OpenAL, and providing a very good aural experience.


 
  Can I just say that I am stoked? I am building a killer computer and have been planning to do so for a while and therefor avoided completing my favorite games so I wouldn't be simply replaying them. This will be fun.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> Can I just say that I am stoked? I am building a killer computer and have been planning to do so for a while and therefor avoided completing my favorite games so I wouldn't be simply replaying them. This will be fun.


 
   
  A high-end computer that will do its fair share of gaming will gladly welcome a Creative X-Fi Titanium HD. It simply doesn't get any better than that 
   
  What are the specs of the computer you're building?


----------



## crzycuyler

Quote: 





roller said:


> A high-end computer that will do its fair share of gaming will gladly welcome a Creative X-Fi Titanium HD. It simply doesn't get any better than that
> 
> What are the specs of the computer you're building?


 
  CPU: i7-3770K
  CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D14
  Motherboard: DZ77GA-70K
  Memory: Corsair Vengeance 16GB (2X8) DDR3-1600
  Storage: Intel 520 Series 180GB SSD x2
  GPU: Galaxy GeForce GTX 670 4GB
  Soundcard: X-Fi Titanium HD
  Case: Cooler Master HAF XB
   
  I just needs to pick a power supply and monitor. This is my first build, though, and I'm always open to suggestions.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> CPU: i7-3770K
> CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D14
> Motherboard: DZ77GA-70K
> Memory: Corsair Vengeance 16GB (2X8) DDR3-1600
> ...


 
   
  Sounds about right. Slap a Corsair AX760 on it and you're all set.
   
  However... aren't you going to add some large HDDs to store data? SSDs will burn out relatively quickly if you use them for large I/O activity.


----------



## crzycuyler

Quote: 





roller said:


> Sounds about right. Slap a Corsair AX760 on it and you're all set.
> 
> However... aren't you going to add some large HDDs to store data? SSDs will burn out relatively quickly if you use them for large I/O activity.


 
  Is that true? I've heard little about that. I haven't been planning on any standard HDD. I like the idea of all SSDs. I got two 520 series for $115 each!


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> Is that true? I've heard little about that. I haven't been planning on any standard HDD. I like the idea of all SSDs. I got two 520 series for $115 each!


 
   
  Yes, their lifespan is quite a bit lower. Just add a 2TB HDD along with the SSDs and you won't have anything to worry about.


----------



## crzycuyler

Quote: 





roller said:


> Yes, their lifespan is quite a bit lower. Just add a 2TB HDD along with the SSDs and you won't have anything to worry about.


 
  I totally want my games on the SSD, though. Is this foolish? For example, I want to have Skyrim on the SSD for all sorts of loading reasons.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> I totally want my games on the SSD, though. Is this foolish? For example, I want to have Skyrim on the SSD for all sorts of loading reasons.


 
   
  Not at all. You actually do want games on the SSDs, while the installers are on the HDD.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roller said:


> Not at all. You actually do want games on the SSDs, while the installers are on the HDD.


 
   
  I wish I could consider that a practical option...
   
  In my case, installing my entire PC game library at this point will take up around 1 TB of space, probably more. Needless to say, buying 1 TB or larger SSDs is extremely impractical at current prices.
   
  For those whose gaming tastes are narrower, though, it could work out without spending a fortune on storage.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I wish I could consider that a practical option...
> 
> In my case, installing my entire PC game library at this point will take up around 1 TB of space, probably more. Needless to say, buying 1 TB or larger SSDs is extremely impractical at current prices.
> 
> For those whose gaming tastes are narrower, though, it could work out without spending a fortune on storage.


 
   
  I'm on the same boat, having to move around data if I want to get a few current games installed, considering games now take up a rather large amount of space.


----------



## raband

Quote: 





roller said:


> I'm on the same boat, having to move around data if I want to get a few current games installed, considering games now take up a rather large amount of space.


 

 The Steam Mover?? app I use works well for this. Move a game to the SSD for playing and to the larger drive when I'm done with it. Most of my games are through Steam though so that makes it a lot easier.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Incidentally, Steam FINALLY has an option to let you choose which drive you want your games installed to without the need for extra utilities, which makes a "small SSD for OS, huge HDD for games" setup much easier.
   
  Of course, if you want to swap back and forth, Steam Mover still comes in handy.


----------



## Roller

It should be noted that games that do intensive data streaming benefit from running from a SSD rather than a HDD. Technically speaking, all games benefit from running from a SSD, but that's not feasible due to both current SSD's size-price ratio as well as ever increasing game sizes.


----------



## ZeeBAD

Hello guys i really need help here cause i am going to buy ultimate gaming pc sound system ( at leat 4 me  )
   
  Correct me if i am wrong ok
   
  buy RAZER timat 7.1 , astro a40 , sennheiser pc 360 whose the best in those 3 and please arrange them 4 me like whish one of them is high , medium and low
   
  If those headset are bad tell me if there is any headphones/headset on the same price level whose better but also tell me your opinion the headset i mentioned
   
  for the sound card i dont know anything about them so after i did a research i found these ar so good Creative soundblaster Z ,
  creative sounblaster X-FI titanium HD , creative soundblaster recon 3D and the ASUS pheobus. whose the best 1 of those ?
  I prefer the soundblaster Z
[size=1.7em]  [/size]


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





zeebad said:


> Hello guys i really need help here cause i am going to buy ultimate gaming pc sound system ( at leat 4 me  )
> buy RAZER timat 7.1 , astro a40 , sennheiser pc 360 whose the best in those 3 and please arrange them 4 me like whish one of them is high , medium and low
> If those headset are bad tell me if there is any headphones/headset on the same price level whose better but also tell me your opinion the headset i mentioned
> for the sound card i dont know anything about them so after i did a research i found these ar so good Creative soundblaster Z ,
> ...


 
  Creative Labs X-Fi Titanium (non-HD), refurb for $44.99 at Newegg.
  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102043
   
  Sennheiser HD558, $180 new or used for $150 at amazon (Electronics Expo).
   
  Whatever add-on mic you like.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





zeebad said:


> Hello guys i really need help here cause i am going to buy ultimate gaming pc sound system ( at leat 4 me  )
> 
> Correct me if i am wrong ok
> 
> ...


 
   
  If you're looking for the absolute best gaming setup, then it's as following:
  - Creative X-Fi Titanium HD
  - Sennheiser PC360 (forget about that Razer and Astro trash)
  - O2 amp


----------



## ZeeBAD

Quote: 





roller said:


> If you're looking for the absolute best gaming setup, then it's as following:
> - Creative X-Fi Titanium HD
> - Sennheiser PC360 (forget about that Razer and Astro trash)
> - O2 amp


 
  why is the X-FI Titanium better than the Soundblaster Z , are the titaium will be good in games and movies ?
   
  Please write down the full name of the amp or give me its link and what if i used portable amp like fiio E07k or something
   
  As for the headset i was thinking about the byerdynamic mmx 300 , is it a good choice and does it have surround sound ?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





zeebad said:


> why is the X-FI Titanium better than the Soundblaster Z , are the titaium will be good in games and movies ?
> 
> Please write down the full name of the amp or give me its link and what if i used portable amp like fiio E07k or something
> 
> As for the headset i was thinking about the byerdynamic mmx 300 , is it a good choice and does it have surround sound ?


 
   
  The Creative X-Fi Titanium HD (the HD model, not the regular model) has both a high quality DAC and components, as well as having hardware support for EAX, OpenAL and positional cue improvement algorithms provided by the X-Fi chip, features that aren't available on the Z series. It's the best soundcard for gaming, and due to the very high quality parts used, it's also great for music and movies.
   
  Look into the JDS Labs O2.
   
  The E7 is a DAC-amp unit, and when used as a DAC, it defeats the purpose of having a higher quality soundcard (the Titanium HD has a superior DAC).
   
  If you intend on doing gaming, along with having good quality audio for music and movies, and you're looking for an integrated mic + headphones set, then the PC360 is what you should be looking for. Alternatively, you can get higher quality headphones and add a clip-on mic or a boom mic.


----------



## obazavil

my 2 cents:
   
  I had AKG 702 and DT990/600. 2 headphones i bought _specifically _for gaming: akg for multiplayer and dt990 for singleplayer. I have astro mixamp too. amp when gaming is too much hassle...
   
  Now, for headphones just get pc360. MLE tested a LOT of headphones and he always goes back to pc360. Good sound, good 3D, and is a headset. For gaming you get best of 2 world: quality and convenience AND you won't need an amp.
   
  For card: ppl here say x-fi titanium is the best (dunno, mine arrives tomorrow from usa). mixamp is useless on pc unless your card does dolby digital live (that my asus maximus v doesn't).
  gaming: x-fi titanium (or... recon 3d... one friend loves it)
  gaming + music: x-fi titanium hd. (better tham e7 or e10 i heard... i will test next week vs e10)
   
  or... you can get  LCD-2+Lyr or Ultrasone Ed8 (i love them when gaming) instead of pc600... they both sound great... hahaha


----------



## Roller

Recon3D series are software based cards without any sort of hardware processing nor positional cue algorithms, being barely better than Asus cards.
   
  The Mixamp is a console device, no use on PCs due to wider offer and quality available.
   
  The Titanium HD is better than any Fiio DAC by quite a bit.
   
  Running a LCD-2 or an Edition 8 sure is an interesting way of looking at it  However, the LCD-2 aren't really geared for gaming, the Edition 8 would be a better option.
   
  About not needing an amp, that's not quite right. The PC360 already sound good straight from the card, but they do improve with additional amplification.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





zeebad said:


> why is the X-FI Titanium better than the Soundblaster Z , are the titaium will be good in games and movies ?
> 
> Please write down the full name of the amp or give me its link and what if i used portable amp like fiio E07k or something
> 
> As for the headset i was thinking about the byerdynamic mmx 300 , is it a good choice and does it have surround sound ?


 
  You could connect the Titanium HD's RCA analog output jacks and connect them to the E07K aux analog line-in and use the E07K amplifier features with headphones.
  and then take the E07K with you for use while traveling.


----------



## obazavil

Quote: 





roller said:


> Running a LCD-2 or an Edition 8 sure is an interesting way of looking at it  However, the LCD-2 aren't really geared for gaming, the Edition 8 would be a better option.


 
   
  I only ran LCD-2 as gaming can for experiment. Pretty good, but quite big... The Ed8 is what i use when gaming. S-Logic with surround rocks, they don't need amp, and are very light. (of course, their primary use is to listen to music at work 6+ hours everyday).
   
   
   


> About not needing an amp, that's not quite right. The PC360 already sound good straight from the card, but they do improve with additional amplification.


 
   
  Well... what I mean is X-Fi HD amp is supposed to handle up to 330 ohms cans right? pc360 is just 50ohms... have people here any problem driving 360 with x-fi titanium? at least by numbers, you should not need a O2 amp (just assumptions, I don't have pc360 nor O2).


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





obazavil said:


> I only ran LCD-2 as gaming can for experiment. Pretty good, but quite big... The Ed8 is what i use when gaming. S-Logic with surround rocks, they don't need amp, and are very light. (of course, their primary use is to listen to music at work 6+ hours everyday).
> 
> Well... what I mean is X-Fi HD amp is supposed to handle up to 330 ohms cans right? pc360 is just 50ohms... have people here any problem driving 360 with x-fi titanium? at least by numbers, you should not need a O2 amp (just assumptions, I don't have pc360 nor O2).


 
   
  Don't get me wrong, the LCD-2 are simply stellar headphones, just that in terms of game's positional cue accuracy they're not so great. But I sure agree that S-Logic is a hardware independent surround upgrade that doesn't do the whole artificial coating to sound like software surround virtualization techs do.
   
  Careful, the X-Fi HD (USB) is a different device from the X-Fi Titanium HD (PCIe). But like I said previously, the PC360 sound fine straight from the card. But by adding an O2, their sound improves further.


----------



## obazavil

Quote: 





roller said:


> Careful, the X-Fi HD (USB) is a different device from the X-Fi Titanium HD (PCIe). But like I said previously, the PC360 sound fine straight from the card. But by adding an O2, their sound improves further.


 
   
  Sorry, i mean X-Fi Titanium HD (PCIe). No idea about USB version, but I guess is inferior


----------



## ZeeBAD

is the X-FI Titanium more powerfull than ASUS pheobus and the STX verions ?
   
  is the Titanium even more powerfull than the creative soundblaser fatality and Z verion even thar both of them made to give you surround sound ?
   
  does the soundcard sucks any kind of power from the processor preformance ?
   
  which one of those will be better DT990 or  pc360 ?
   
do i need amp with this setup and why ?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





obazavil said:


> Sorry, i mean X-Fi Titanium HD (PCIe). No idea about USB version, but I guess is inferior


 
   
  Indeed, the X-Fi HD USB isn't as good as the X-Fi Titanium HD.
   
  Quote: 





zeebad said:


> is the X-FI Titanium more powerfull than ASUS pheobus and the STX verions ?
> 
> is the Titanium even more powerfull than the creative soundblaser fatality and Z verion even thar both of them made to give you surround sound ?
> 
> ...


 
   
  The regular X-Fi Titanium isn't as good as the Phoebus or the Essence STX in terms of sound quality, but it's better in terms of gaming capabilities. The X-Fi Titanium HD has similar sound quality as the Essence STX, but the Titanium HD DAC is superior, not to mention the Titanium HD has full gaming audio support, while all Asus cards have partial gaming audio support and no positional cue improvement algorithms like X-Fi cards have, even the cheaper X-Fi Titanium.
   
  The DT990 is a quite nice set for immersive gaming, also handling competitive gaming, but not as well as immersive gaming.
   
  The PC360 is quite good for competitive gaming, and also handles immersive gaming reasonably well.
   
  If you intend on doing any sort of serious gaming, you will want to dismiss Asus cards and Creative cards from the Recon3D and Z series, which have better gaming audio support than Asus cards, but still far lower than X-Fi cards.
   
  Both those headphones will benefit from having an amp like an O2 or a Schiit Asgard, mainly because those amps deliver more robust power, which makes the headphones sound better, in plain terms.
   
  At this point in time, performance hits from using higher quality soundcards are negligible, since processors have enough cycles to spare.


----------



## ZeeBAD

Sorry for being annoying but i need more details about the difference  between the X-FI Titanium HD and the Soundblaster Z in terms of gaming , surround sound , pure sound , music and movies ?
   
  are both of them great at gaming ? and whose better ?
   
  Cause there is no difference between the price and the soundblaster z are creative top card in gaming rigth now so i need to know why you guys insist that the titanium HD the top card for gaming just to know why explain in more details.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





zeebad said:


> Sorry for being annoying but i need more details about the difference  between the X-FI Titanium HD and the Soundblaster Z in terms of gaming , surround sound , pure sound , music and movies ?
> 
> are both of them great at gaming ? and whose better ?
> 
> Cause there is no difference between the price and the soundblaster z are creative top card in gaming rigth now so i need to know why you guys insist that the titanium HD the top card for gaming just to know why explain in more details.


 
   
  Let's start by that "the soundblaster z are creative top card in gaming rigth now" statement that is just plain wrong. The Z series cards aren't the top card for gaming and will never be, simply due to the lack of hardware OpenAL, hardware EAX and no specific algorithms that improve positional cues (found only on X-Fi based cards). The ZxR has good components and for music and movies, it is a reasonable alternative to the Titanium HD, but the tremendous loss of gaming features prevents it from being recommended for anyone doing any sort of serious gaming whatsoever, especially at the ZxR's going price.
   
  The X-Fi Titanium HD is the highest performing soundcard for gaming, bar none. Afterwards come the X-Fi powered Auzentech cards, then the X-Fi Fatal1ty variants (PCI and PCIe), the regular X-Fi Titanium, and after the common denominator that is the X-Fi chip, comes the Z series, and at the very bottom lies the Recon3D series.
   
  The main misconception about soundcard features is that they can be done in hardware, software or both being available, depending on each card's capabilities. Some software simply won't give access to higher quality options if only software support is reported.
   
  And just to paint a clear picture, the ZxR (highest model of the Z series) has as much gaming audio support as external Creative cards, which are more limited than true internal Creative cards, don't do any sort of audio pipeline offloading, and processing itself is of lower quality than on X-Fi powered cards. Curiously, the Z series is still a better option for gaming than any Asus soundcard.


----------



## Evshrug

roller said:


> "...software based cards without any sort of hardware processing nor positional cue algorithms, being barely better than Asus cards."




Without getting opinionated about it, could you elucidate the technical definition of "software vs hardware" based cards? I asked this before, but your reply didn't seem to come from explaining how the processing features on Recon3D, Z series, and Asus cards are software based unlike how the Titanium HD's method of processing is any different. There was nothing substantiated in your opinions because IMO "X-Fi has _hardware_ processing" doesn't go far enough when it seems clear to me that other cards do their processing on their hardware, but you really stick to your opinion, so is there something you can explain that I just don't know yet?

Creative at the time of the Titanium HD had the advantage over Asus cards for gaming because they internally developed EAX processing (a software program that is run on the dedicated hardware of the X-Fi card) further than the EAX 2.0 version used by Asus, and supported the OpenAL open-source language/standard more by creating ALchemy to re-instate OpenAL support in Windows Vista. They also used CMSS-3D for virtual surround which supports x-, y-, & z- axis positional cues, while Dolby Headphone was mainly created for movies and simulating a 5.1 (maybe accounted for 7.1) speaker x- & y- axis positional cues. However, as time has moved on from the launch of Vista, the difference in gaming has narrowed as no games (from what I understand) use OpenAL or actively support EAX anymore, and there are no more games supporting z-axis height positional cues... though some games software-mix environmental and height effects now, just like distance cues have always been done from what I understand. That said, Creative's marketing and spec sheets identify EAX 5.0 and ALchemy support being carried over to their new cards, with CMSS-3D being replaced by first THX TruStudio Pro (even on the Titanium HD, look at Creative's main page) and then the SBX ProStudio on the newest Z-series cards and still supporting height effects. So, with all the (opinion: marginally useful since (substantiation) they aren't in use with contemporary games) "extra" audio effects of EAX and OpenAL being carried over to the new cards, there is only hardware differences left to contrast between Creative's cards.

The way you talk about "done in hardware" makes it sound like everything but the X-Fi soundcards installs processing software on the computer and dumps an emulation software load on the CPU and "core" hardware of a computer... Yet how can that be, if I can actually increase the audio demands from my PC games and yet get better framerates, or, even more telling, when I can use my Recon3D with my Xbox360 (which is a closed system) and yet still get surround audio? So assuming from that, that *all the audio is being processed and DAC'd and output from the card*, is there truly ANY difference between a Titanium HD and a ZxR besides SBX ProStudio being substituted for CMSS-3D, and different DAC/buffer/etc components resulting in a higher SNR for the ZxR soundcard? The Recon3D USB I have has "just" 98 dB SNR, and without knowing what DAC or amp/buffer used by Creative I already can already hear that even my receiver has more definition and "authority driving headphones," and costs half the price of the Titanium HD, so it's logical to assume that the Titaniums have better audio components. The titanium HD has an SNR of 115dB, 122dB at the front channel out. The Z-series has 106dB on-card and 116dB @front channel, and the ZxR has 124dB (I assume @ front), though Creative's ZxR page is yet incomplete. Asus' Xonar Essence STX page lists 117dB, 124dB, and much more detail about the included audio components used than Creative's page.

Are there any "for gaming" things I am missing? Remember, the crux of my question is "what specifically does X-Fi hardware offer that is an advantage over Creative's new SoundCore3D hardware," since I know that my opinion that EAX and OpenAL support is irrelivant to contemporary gaming is not something I need to convince you of.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Without getting opinionated about it, could you elucidate the technical definition of "software vs hardware" based cards? I asked this before, but your reply didn't seem to come from explaining how the processing features on Recon3D, Z series, and Asus cards are software based unlike how the Titanium HD's method of processing is any different. There was nothing substantiated in your opinions because IMO "X-Fi has _hardware_ processing" doesn't go far enough when it seems clear to me that other cards do their processing on their hardware, but you really stick to your opinion, so is there something you can explain that I just don't know yet?
> Creative at the time of the Titanium HD had the advantage over Asus cards for gaming because they internally developed EAX processing (a software program that is run on the dedicated hardware of the X-Fi card) further than the EAX 2.0 version used by Asus, and supported the OpenAL open-source language/standard more by creating ALchemy to re-instate OpenAL support in Windows Vista. They also used CMSS-3D for virtual surround which supports x-, y-, & z- axis positional cues, while Dolby Headphone was mainly created for movies and simulating a 5.1 (maybe accounted for 7.1) speaker x- & y- axis positional cues. However, as time has moved on from the launch of Vista, the difference in gaming has narrowed as no games (from what I understand) use OpenAL or actively support EAX anymore, and there are no more games supporting z-axis height positional cues... though some games software-mix environmental and height effects now, just like distance cues have always been done from what I understand. That said, Creative's marketing and spec sheets identify EAX 5.0 and ALchemy support being carried over to their new cards, with CMSS-3D being replaced by first THX TruStudio Pro (even on the Titanium HD, look at Creative's main page) and then the SBX ProStudio on the newest Z-series cards and still supporting height effects. So, with all the (opinion: marginally useful since (substantiation) they aren't in use with contemporary games) "extra" audio effects of EAX and OpenAL being carried over to the new cards, there is only hardware differences left to contrast between Creative's cards.
> The way you talk about "done in hardware" makes it sound like everything but the X-Fi soundcards installs processing software on the computer and dumps an emulation software load on the CPU and "core" hardware of a computer... Yet how can that be, if I can actually increase the audio demands on my computer and get better framerates, or even more telling, when I can use my Recon3D with my Xbox360 (which is a closed system) and yet still get surround audio? So assuming from that, that *all the audio is being processed and DAC'd and output from the card*, is there truly ANY difference between a Titanium HD and a ZxR besides SBX ProStudio being substituted for CMSS-3D, and different DAC/buffer/etc components resulting in a higher SNR for the ZxR soundcard? The Recon3D has "just" 98 dB SNR, and without knowing what DAC or amp/buffer used by Creative I already can already hear that even my receiver has more definition and "authority driving headphones," and costs half the price of the Titanium HD, so it's logical to assume that the Titaniums have better audio components.


 
   
  Basically, software based cards do processing in software, while hardware based cards have processing features on the hardware itself, which yields better results as opposed to software processing that's an additional layer to the resulting output. Think of hardware vs software EQing.
  Quick correction there, Creative uses (not used) CMSS-3D for any desired purposes, be it music, games or movies. Additionally, the X-Fi chip has algorithms created for the sole purpose of improving positional cue accuracy, those algorithms being audio renderer agnostic, which means they work on all games, from fully accelerated audio down to basic 2D software audio renderers. The advantage is not huge as it was before, but still enough to warrant recommending cards with X-Fi chips (not only from Creative) over others, for gaming purposes.
   
  The Titanium HD is a particular card in the sense that it has both THX TruStudio Pro for general purpose listening (optional, of course) as well as CMSS-3D (targeting gaming, but can also be used for music and movies), contrary to all older and newer cards.
   
  About newer Creative cards having EAX 5.0 and ALchemy, it's not fully supported by according games because said games look for X-Fi chips, or hardware audio, with some games limiting options while others disable advanced audio entirely.
   
  About your "done in hardware" remark, it's not just the X-Fi series that do audio pipeline offloading, Audigy 1/2/4 series also do the same and even the Live! series. All cards older than the Live! series (historical exception of the original Sound Blaster cards, especially the AWE32, but not relevant for this case) and newer than the X-Fi series run on software alone.
   
  Do post more details about increasing the audio demands on your computer and getting better framerates, that had no details for reference purposes.

 Xbox360? This is a PC gaming thread.
   
  EDIT: The Recon3D series (talking about PCIe versions) are literally glorified onboard audio chips implemented on their own PCB, then getting a Creative software package. They're akin to the audio expansion cards that come with gaming-oriented motherboards.
   
  EDIT2: Actually, that whole getting better framerates can be explained by something as simple as better use of multiple threads, considering there is an ever increasing use of separate threads for different parts of games, and some CPUs can have a harder time with uneven core loads, especially since not all cores of a single CPU perform the same, and by increasing audio settings (such as audio channels), higher individual core usage can then lead to higher fps or if threading permits, sharing tasks with less used cores. Not to mention how different platforms perform differently when testing the same games and settings.
  A good example of a comparable situation on the graphics side is how many modern games (as in, console ports) have lower fps due to inconsistent GPU usage, yet when AA is added, it pushes GPU usage properly, increasing fps along with higher visual fidelity.


----------



## Evshrug

roller said:


> Basically, software based cards do processing in software, while hardware based cards have processing features on the hardware itself, which yields better results as opposed to software processing that's an additional layer to the resulting output. Think of hardware vs software EQing.
> *You've said this before, could you explain further? In my mind, I still don't see how the X-Fi processor functions different than the SoundCore3D processor, aren't they both dedicated processing units contained on their expansion card PCBs, thus both running software on dedicated sound hardware? Hw v Sw EQ differs, as I understand, in the effect being applied during analogue or digital stage, with digital EQ causing signal loss or distortion. Are you saying that the X-Fi processor is affective during the analogue stage?*
> 
> Quick correction there, Creative uses (not used) CMSS-3D for any desired purposes, be it music, games or movies. Additionally, the X-Fi chip has algorithms created for the sole purpose of improving positional cue accuracy, those algorithms being audio renderer agnostic, which means they work on all games, from fully accelerated audio down to basic 2D software audio renderers. The advantage is not huge as it was before, but still enough to warrant recommending cards with X-Fi chips (not only from Creative) over others, for gaming purposes.
> ...




Edit: let me prove that I am brand agnostic. I don't know if the ZxR is out yet... but I think it looks promising. I think the Asus Xonar models are competitive specs-wise to Creative cards targeted for similar price points, though I recommend research spec differences and consider how much you care to budget towards an audio card. So on that thread... The Titanium HD is an amazing value right now, as long as pic-express models are ok, LOOK AT THIS:
http://www.jr.com/creative-labs/pe/CLN_SB1270/

Sales change every day, but if I was shopping today or was considering an update sometime in the future, I would DEFINITELY JUMP ON THIS DEAL!


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> *You've said this before, could you explain further? In my mind, I still don't see how the X-Fi processor functions different than the SoundCore3D processor, aren't they both dedicated processing units contained on their expansion card PCBs, thus both running software on dedicated sound hardware? Hw v Sw EQ differs, as I understand, in the effect being applied during analogue or digital stage, with digital EQ causing signal loss or distortion. Are you saying that the X-Fi processor is affective during the analogue stage?*
> 
> *Isn't what you describe as the function of CMSS-3D the same as TruStudio/ProStudio/Dolby Headphone/even Dolby Pro Logic IIx? Obviously assuming accuracy varies based on whether fed stereo/2D/3D sound, and assuming the algorithm codec was programmed to take advantage of up to 3D full surround*
> 
> ...


 
   
  Well, the X-Fi processor runs almost all processing through hardware, with most of its features being configured through command inputs to the card, that then reproduces said features from the processor straight to output. Examples of features processed through hardware are OpenAL, CMSS-3D, EAX, MacroFX, Elevation Filter and resampling. Examples of features processed in software are the EQ, SVM and Crystalizer.
   
  Let's look at two different cards with CMSS-3D, the X-Fi XtremeAudio and the X-Fi Titanium HD. The XtremeAudio isn't actually a real X-Fi card since it lacks the X-Fi chip and it's software based, actually being a rebranded Audigy LS/ES/Value card that got the software-only package on top of it. Despite both cards having CMSS-3D, the processing quality of the Titanium HD has higher fidelity and actually sounds more natural than the CMSS-3D done by the XtremeAudio. And before you think it might be due to the Titanium HD's higher quality components, the X-Fi Titanium also shares the proper quality CMSS-3D.
  THX TruStudio Pro is the first audio processing set that was designed with software based cards in mind, for less demanding audio usage, which is why it gets disabled on the Titanium HD once modes are switched. Also, it seems you're attributing positional cue accuracy with CMSS-3D, something people do (just like with DH), when I'm actually talking about the algorithms available only on Game Mode, which unlocks full hardware acceleration, OpenAL, EAX, the works. When running on modes other than Game Mode, there is still hardware acceleration but more limited, given that hardware acceleration is mainly used on gaming.
  The thing is, the better the audio renderer used on software, the better the end results will be, but even with the lowest common denominators (such as XAudio2 and FMOD), Game Mode and the algorithms help out on that worse case scenario. Users can enable CMSS-3D alongside that, helping surround and positional cues further, for those that are willing to trade original sound for the altered sound that all surround virtualization techs change into.
   
  One thing that both I and other people have noticed is that Creative has a rather odd way of advertising their products, be it spec wise or feature wise, many times ending up with products that have more features or more flexibility than the info that's usually available from the product's page, it's actually uncanny 
   
  Now, I do think that games should enable advanced and/or higher quality audio for hardware OpenAL enabled cards (such as Audigy and X-Fi cards), they should instead make 3 sound quality tiers, basic software audio for devices with not even software OpenAL (most audiophile DACs and all pro audio hardware), better sound quality/effects for devices with software OpenAL (many onboard audio chips, Asus cards, Creative Value cards) and full sound quality/effects/channels for devices with hardware OpenAL (Audigy/X-Fi).
  Basically, hardware accelerated cards that are relevant to gaming pretty much include Audigy and X-Fi cards.
   
  I honestly don't know what could Creative have been thinking when they made and released the Recon3D cards. First of all, SoundCore3D isn't a quad core processor, given that even the Sound Blaster Live! series could handle as many effects at the same time as Recon3D cards. Second, no hardware processing of any kind, except mic effects and THX TruStudio Pro. Yes, the entertainment oriented software package is actually accelerated, which is yet another proof at how Creative just wanted to monetize on chips that were never meant to land on the desktop market, this specific variant targetted mobile devices that actually would benefit from having THX TruStudio Pro hardware accelerated for improved power savings. Then there's the whole lower (low) quality components that provide worse sound quality than base X-Fi models (PCI or PCIe), lacking a hardware MIDI synthesizer, lacking ASIO, lacking hardware OpenAL and lacking hardware EAX.
  The surround feature you're talking about is part of the oddly accelerated THX TruStudio Pro that's not targeted for gaming, and in that regard would make sense that the surround by itself could alleviate the performance hit on Starcraft II. The remaining audio settings, however, do refer to what I mentioned regarding more efficient threading.
   
  And if the Xbox360 reference is about the Recon3D USB unit handling surround, then it is relevant.
   
  Despite sounding harsh, Recon3D cards are basically outsourced chips that are lightly modified and have Creative's software-only software package.
   
  Thing is, there isn't any Creative card (or from any other manufacturer, mind you) that's as full featured for gaming as the Titanium HD, which has both full gaming audio support, courtesy of the latest X-Fi chip revision, as well as high quality DAC and components, which makes for the best mix at the time being. If Creative did use the X-Fi chip (even if they renamed it) on the Z series, then the Titanium HD would be the second best card for gaming, but that didn't happen, therefore it continues to have all gaming audio features and consumer flagship-level components.
   
  EDIT: Sweet deal you found there


----------



## Evshrug

I reread your second and third paragraph over three times... I see you're trying to show an example of hardware vs software processing... but I'm still confused, especially at the sentence "And before you think it might be due to the Titanium HD's higher quality components, the Titanium also shares the proper quality CMSS-3D." It seems you're saying both cards share the same CMSS-3D processing... but the Titanium HD isn't better because it has higher quality components? Or are you adding a third card for comparison, the titanium sans-HD? Maybe I'm just being thick. (Can I pleaaaase type Ti HD now that we've established what we're talking about? Think of it as a pronoun)

My understanding is that the X-Fi chipset is basically just a self-contained computer that is dedicated to only run the software Algorithms of CMSS-3D and the rest of Creative's feature suite, but I think you're asking me to accept that the algorithms aren't software and X-Fi is purely a hardware thing, akin to a coin sorter separating the sound signal into the quarter slot for positional cues, the nickel for environment effects, etc... without digitally running code to do it. To accept that, I would also have to accept that "hardware acceleration/processing" is simply beyond my understanding, but I _want to_ understand. Maybe... you're saying SoundCore3D has the additional overhead of emulating hardware support, similar to 64-bit windows 7 emulating XP, or a more direct comparison, like how Mac OS X emulated PowerPc support after the computers switched to intel processors? Software emulation of X-Fi architecture on a different hardware architecture fits what you're trying to say, often emulation is buggy or fails to support every feature. If I still don't have it, let me know?

Regarding OpenAL & software controlled EAX processing (so that you don't sound like you're in a cave when playing in the open outdoors) and the rest of the X-Fi's gaming feature specialties, I agree that they are the bee's knees and it would be awesome to see a revival of developer support. However, it seems the money in gaming is going to "post PC" devices, not a healthy trend for gaming audio quality. There will always be hardcore gaming IMO, but even in that audio progress has given way to 2D surround designed for affordable home-theater setups. I think perhaps the best way to look at it is 3D surround was ahead of it's time, but possibly as the popularity of headphones for audio grows and home-theater advances we'll see a new generation of 3D audio. It may not be called the same, but at least we have a start. Until then, I don't think games have fully supported 3D audio since 2006 and have moved towards putting EAX-like effects inside regular game audio engines, and the Ti HD thus looks like one flagship among a few others.

From reading Creative's white papers, it does seem like the Recon3D line was a cost-cutting development in reaction to years of Creative operating in the red. Like you pointed out about their marketing, it seems like they're panicking chickens with their heads cut off. The Z-series sound blasters seem to have taken a page out of Asus' book, but that's hardly the way to "win," and Asus is a much larger company with a more diverse product portfolio anyway.

Meh. Wish I had enough money/income to justify $100 on the Ti HD, I'm really sorry I have to miss out on that deal.


----------



## crzycuyler

I can't remember if I have asked this before, but I am looking to purchase one of two headphones to pair with an amp and the Titanium HD. In this very specific instance, price is not object. I am trying to decide between Audio Technica W1000X and Sennheiser HD700. Any opinions? They will be for mostly gaming but some music and movies. I play non-competitive immersive games. Thanks!


----------



## Roller

I'm sorry about my phrasing, I was worried it wasn't perfectly clear.
   
  What I was saying on the second and third paragraph is that the CMSS-3D processing quality is the same on both the Titanium and the Titanium HD. What does improve on the Titanium HD is the output quality due to better components used.
   
  The X-Fi chip does indeed run most of the features through hardware (unfortunately, direct hardware EQ is limited through software, unlike previous sound processor versions). You're still misunderstanding the fact that CMSS-3D and positional cue improvement alorithms are separated from each other and can run independently if the user sees fit. Positional cue improvement algorithms are one feature that is exclusive to hardware accelerated X-Fi cards, for they can't run through software, namely on any mode other than Game Mode, which is something all software based cards lack. OpenAL, CMSS-3D and EAX are features that can run through either hardware or software, but if ran through software, their processing will be of lower quality and with lower accuracy, given that it's similar to software based cards like the XtremeAudio and USB X-Fi cards.
   
  Basically, you have to think that there are audio systems (not talking about PC audio) that have additional processing options through firmware that directly interfaces with the hardware itself, rather than using codec boards, and that's something similar to the hardware processing of X-Fi chips.
   
  SoundCore3D has an overhead for emulating some X-Fi features, but those emulated features don't include anything that's purely ran on hardware, meaning SoundCore3D can't emulate everything the X-Fi does, and what it can emulate, it's done with lower quality, because emulation isn't done as good as how real hardware performs. Also, virtually all software checks for hardware presence, and it recognizes software based cards, despite running emulated features, which then limits or disables advanced features, depending on the software (game, not card) itself.
   
  The issue with PC game audio began during the restructuring of the Windows audio stack, which could've been skipped by adding an exception to the audio stack in order to interface with hardware so it could then provide seamless higher quality audio. Alternatively, Microsoft and Creative could've implemented a system-wide DS3D to OpenAL converter. I've had long conversations with some people about this during that time, and a lot of ideas were suggested, with the thought of software and hardware vendors locking down support in order to have less chances for more manufacturers to provide full gaming audio support (both software and hardware vendors played their part on this). Unfortunately, the audio stack restructuring was something that was under wraps for a very long time, and now it's rather hard to turn around, unless something unexpected does occur in 2 and a half years.
  I sincerely hope you're right about true 3D audio coming back, because over a decade ago we already had incredibly accurate and immersive audio, running on what is now ancient hardware.
   
  About games supporting 3D audio, I've seen games released last year supporting proper 3D audio. It's not as heard of because triple A games are fleeing to FMOD or even worse, XAudio2. At least FMOD had a usable branch that supported hardware audio, even for Asus cards.
   
  Recon3D had a lot of corners cut, that's a given, but Creative wasn't in any worrying financial trouble since they still have plenty of business with their other product line-ups, as well as mobile chips and proprietary tech licensing deals.
   
  Quite a shame you couldn't have gotten that deal, great price. It seems it was even at near $100 a couple of days ago.


----------



## raband

Ordered a Titanium HD 2 weeks ago from the local store (showed as in stock but at another store). $20 more expensive than a further store and probably $50 more expensive than online from overseas but hey – local support I thought. (Australia here)

Ordered Weds, delivery Fri arvo I was told.

Glad I didn't prepare the computer to put it in. Chased it up on the Friday, early last week, late last week and then requested they chase it up and get back to me yesterday.

Phonecall this arvo – it's in – yay

Pickup tomorrow and then I guess it's time to clean my desk, install the card and start to play/listen. 

(Could have ordered it from overseas, had it earlier and saved $50 - the retailers here are up in arms over the internet stealing their sales, but it's crap like this that takes any goodwill away. A store that's 5 mins drive, shows it as being in stock then takes 2 weeks to let me pick it up; pfft. "They took our jobs....." - no buddy, you didn't do your job)

Now {rant over} – I'm after a little advice on hooking up the wires 

I'm hooking the card up to my headphones via an O2 amp (3.5mm input)

The card comes with RCA => 3.5mm cable.

Should I go the adapter from the RCA's or straight out of the headphone jack on the card or is there no difference?

The spec sheets show different numbers for each of the output connections, so I basically want to know which would be best for gaming and music or if one connection is better for one use and another for the other use.

If I go the RCA=>3.5mm=>O2=>Headphones then I think I can use the other RCA's optical out to feed my speakers, whereas if I use the headphone jack then all other options are muted. If the headphone jack is the best option for sound then I will use it (and onboard optical out to the speakers)


----------



## Roller

raband, ideally you would use the Titanium HD's RCA out to the O2 and then connect headphones to the O2.


----------



## raband

roller said:


> raband, ideally you would use the Titanium HD's RCA out to the O2 and then connect headphones to the O2.




Cheers, that's what I was hoping for. I wasn't sure if the headphone jack had the best feed or not.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





raband said:


> Cheers, that's what I was hoping for. I wasn't sure if the headphone jack had the best feed or not.


 
   
  Well, they're meant for different usage. If you didn't have the O2, then you would benefit more from plugging to the 3.5mm out, but with an amp, the RCA out is the better option.
   
  Also, keep in mind that if you want, you can send any processing features of the card through the RCAs. I mention this because there are many cards that don't have that capability.


----------



## Shisno

Ok, so... after browsing here for the last few days, I'm left with a huge question...
   
  Why would a set like the AD700's (one jack) provide a better positional audio experience than a set like Psyko Carbon (3 dedicated jacks, which include its own amp).  
  I have a thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/640425/advice-new-gaming-sound-setup-from-the-ground-up
   
  I'm just trying to figure out what will be the best system from the standpoint of directional precision.  Audio quality, highs/lows is really second consideration to me.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





shisno said:


> Ok, so... after browsing here for the last few days, I'm left with a huge question...
> 
> Why would a set like the AD700's (one jack) provide a better positional audio experience than a set like Psyko Carbon (3 dedicated jacks, which include its own amp).
> I have a thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/640425/advice-new-gaming-sound-setup-from-the-ground-up
> ...


 
   
  If you're looking for the best headphones purely for competitive gaming, where positional cue accuracy is absolutely required, the the AD700 is pretty much the best headphones for that purpose. However, they are very bass light, and won't really provide a satisfactory listening experience for immersive gaming or for anything with present or emphasized bass.
   
  EDIT: Like it was pointed out to you on your thread, two quality drivers provide much better sound quality and positional cue accuracy than multiple low quality drivers. Basically, all multi-driver implementations for gaming/surround purposes deliver poor sound quality.


----------



## Shisno

I won't really use this PC for music.  That's what my HTPC and B&O system is for


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





shisno said:


> I won't really use this PC for music.  That's what my HTPC and B&O system is for


 
   
  Well, like I said previously, the AD700 provide absolutely excellent positional cue accuracy, which makes them great for competitive gaming. If you plan on doing both competitive and immersive gaming, positional cue accuracy might have to be slightly sacrificed.
   
  Is competitive gaming alone what you do?


----------



## Shisno

Ok, I guess my internal debate about AMP(O2) and HP's (AD700) is settled.  Now, for sound card...
   
  I'm down to two choices (feel free to suggest another card, if it's better for gaming):
   
  Titanium HD:
  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102033
   
  Sound Blaster Z:
  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102048
   
  I suppose the available option of RCA's on the titanium look appealing to me... but, the Z is a newer release, and quite a bit cheaper.  Is one clearly a better performer than the other?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





shisno said:


> Ok, I guess my internal debate about AMP(O2) and HP's (AD700) is settled.  Now, for sound card...
> 
> I'm down to two choices (feel free to suggest another card, if it's better for gaming):
> 
> ...


 
   
  For gaming, especially competitive gaming and for improved positional cue accuracy, the Titanium HD is the card to get. It's also going for $109.99 on Amazon.
   
  A Titanium HD + O2 + AD700 are basically the best gaming setup you can get for competitive gaming.
   
  EDIT: It should also be noted that the base Z series card has lower quality DAC and components when compared to the Titanium HD.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





roller said:


> For gaming, especially competitive gaming and for improved positional cue accuracy, the Titanium HD is the card to get. It's also going for $109.99 on Amazon.
> 
> A Titanium HD + O2 + AD700 are basically the best gaming setup you can get for competitive gaming.
> 
> EDIT: It should also be noted that the base Z series card has lower quality DAC and components when compared to the Titanium HD.


 
  Woah, didn't know it was going for that cheap on Amazon. I think I might get one and swap out my STX.
   
  Are there any FR measurements of this card though? Is it as flat as the STX? I know people say it has a slight bass emphasis but I think that might just be because of output impedence, I would be using line-out to an external amp.
   
  Also, can you use CMSS-3D with line-out or just headphone out?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> Woah, didn't know it was going for that cheap on Amazon. I think I might get one and swap out my STX.
> 
> Are there any FR measurements of this card though? Is it as flat as the STX? I know people say it has a slight bass emphasis but I think that might just be because of output impedence, I would be using line-out to an external amp.
> 
> Also, can you use CMSS-3D with line-out or just headphone out?


 
   
  Over the past few days there has been a noticeable price drop on the card, which is great news.
   
  It measures similarly to the Essence STX. Noticeable differences between both cards go through the Titanium HD having a neutral signature leaning slightly towards warmth while the Essence STX has a neutral signature leaning towards brightness.
   
  CMSS-3D, as well as other processing features, can be used through both line-out and headphone out. If disabled, the signal passes unaltered.


----------



## Shisno

Speaking solely on positional audio, does the AD700 beat the [size=small]ATH-M50?[/size]


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





shisno said:


> Speaking solely on positional audio, does the AD700 beat the [size=small]ATH-M50?[/size]


 
   
  It blows them out of the water regarding positional cue accuracy.


----------



## Shisno

Thanks for all your help, Roller.  Going with the O2-AD700-TitaniumHD setup.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





shisno said:


> Thanks for all your help, Roller.  Going with the O2-AD700-TitaniumHD setup.


 
   
  Glad to help.
   
  Just remember that the AD700 are mainly geared for competitive gaming, they won't sound nearly as good for immersive gaming.


----------



## Shisno

Got a recommendation for immersion?  I'll likely get both.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





roller said:


> Over the past few days there has been a noticeable price drop on the card, which is great news.
> 
> It measures similarly to the Essence STX. Noticeable differences between both cards go through the Titanium HD having a neutral signature leaning slightly towards warmth while the Essence STX has a neutral signature leaning towards brightness.
> 
> CMSS-3D, as well as other processing features, can be used through both line-out and headphone out. If disabled, the signal passes unaltered.


 
  Awesome that they don't restrict your options based on output like Xonar. That'll be convenient.


----------



## Evshrug

Roller,
I actually thought OpenAL (and DS3D) contained the positional cue algorithms.

Which feeds into my comment about the near-death of 3D audio in favor of supporting home theater speaker setups... I assumed nobody was developing games that looked for and utilized OpenAL (and admittedly, I just assumed DS3D too without evidence) because on OpenAL's open source website, the list "all" games with support for the language, and comments in general that audio has been 2D for years. Thief 4 is in development and due for release in the not-distant future, I have to imagine great sound design is still very important to the game, wouldn't it be nice if they really marketed the feature of sound?

Higher audio aspirations are quite possible... As I said, people are growing respect for headphone audio, the consoles are quite old and many gamers are curious about PC Land. Consoles are a good entry into gaming, there's probably a larger population now
The Titanium HD is still $109.99 at the J&R link I posted.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Roller,
> I actually thought OpenAL (and DS3D) contained the positional cue algorithms.
> Which feeds into my comment about the near-death of 3D audio in favor of supporting home theater speaker setups... I assumed nobody was developing games that looked for and utilized OpenAL (and admittedly, I just assumed DS3D too without evidence) because on OpenAL's open source website, the list "all" games with support for the language, and comments in general that audio has been 2D for years. Thief 4 is in development and due for release in the not-distant future, I have to imagine great sound design is still very important to the game, wouldn't it be nice if they really marketed the feature of sound?
> Higher audio aspirations are quite possible... As I said, people are growing respect for headphone audio, the consoles are quite old and many gamers are curious about PC Land. Consoles are a good entry into gaming, there's probably a larger population now
> The Titanium HD is still $109.99 at the J&R link I posted.


 
   
  The algorithms are contained within the X-Fi chip, which is why their improvements can't be obtained from other soundcards, be it Creative or otherwise.
   
  One reason that contribute to lower positional cue accuracy in games is the whole cross platform development situation, as consoles and mobile devices lack hardware support for the most part, except that most of those devices can use a subset of OpenAL. Honestly, the lack of audio development through OpenAL has to be related to a disagreement between a triangle of software developers, hardware developers and software audio renderer developers.
  The main point to take from this is that games should have both audio and video developed through tremendously high performance and high quality libraries, namely OpenAL and OpenGL.
   
  The Titanium HD is also at $109.99 on Amazon. Apparently there was a price drop on several retailers.


----------



## chewy4

J&R is the seller on Amazon actually. I pulled the trigger on it yesterday and they already shipped it out, should be here friday 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I was wondering though, does anyone know what settings on the game you're supposed to use for CMSS-3D and DH? I know for CMSS-3D you're supposed to use 7.1 in Window's settings and headphone in the soundcard's control panel, but what about in the game itself?
  EDIT: Nevermind just found out, you're supposed to use 7.1 or highest available.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> J&R is the seller on Amazon actually. I pulled the trigger on it yesterday and they already shipped it out, should be here friday
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Ah, that makes sense 
   
  Games usually synch in-game audio settings to system audio settings, but it usually should match system settings.


----------



## obazavil

and i just got mine last week at 134.00 in amazon tax included... oh.. well... 
   
  when i have time i will check it against mixamp  (now that my pc do dolby digital live)


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Roller,
> I actually thought OpenAL (and DS3D) contained the positional cue algorithms.
> Which feeds into my comment about the near-death of 3D audio in favor of supporting home theater speaker setups... I assumed nobody was developing games that looked for and utilized OpenAL (and admittedly, I just assumed DS3D too without evidence) because on OpenAL's open source website, the list "all" games with support for the language, and comments in general that audio has been 2D for years. Thief 4 is in development and due for release in the not-distant future, I have to imagine great sound design is still very important to the game, wouldn't it be nice if they really marketed the feature of sound?


 
   
  It's more that DS3D and OAL just pass off the location of every sound in 3D space to the audio device, and then that audio device applies its own positional cue algorithms to each of those sounds based on its position. That's why effects go missing without the proper hardware.
   
  As Roller said, there were big disagreements between several major parties when it comes to gaming audio. This is actually nothing new; I later learned that the DirectX 3 incarnation of DirectSound3D wasn't originally designed to pass off the 3D coordinates to the audio device for use with third-party 3D algorithms, which naturally upset a lot of sound card manufacturers and led to the development of independent audio APIs like A3D...only to find that these were no longer necessary after Microsoft got their act together and made the DirectX 5 version of DS3D onward export the 3D audio coordinates.
   
  And as for Thief 4...I want to believe, but knowing the game industry today, it won't have anything on the first two games or even Deadly Shadows, and I don't just mean the audio.


----------



## Roller

A game series that had nothing short of excellent sound quality and remarkable positional cue accuracy was F.E.A.R., the original moreso than the sequels. Height, depth and width cues were already well above average on USB Creative devices, and they simply shined on hardware based Creative cards.


----------



## chewy4

So is the list on wikipedia  of games with OpenAL support incomplete? Seems like a pretty sad list, and I don't see F.E.A.R. on there.


----------



## Roller

The list is rather incomplete, and unfortunately the information is rather scattered throughout the web. For instance, Creative has two separate lists of compatible games with different games between lists.


----------



## chewy4

Ah that's a shame. Especially since Creative's games pages have been down for a few days now. Good thing that there are more games that have the support though... 
   
  Any way to check in game if it supports it or do I have to rely on web searches?


----------



## Roller

Hum, that's odd, they're working here.
   
  Some games display comprehensive audio options, while others keep it to a minimum, which unfortunately isn't a direct indicator of what kind of audio support the games has.
   
  An easier way to check for which audio renderer is used on (most) games is to look in the installed game folder, which in the case of OpenAL and FMOD (just as examples) do have files straight on the root folder with the audio libraries. However, some games keep files on subfolders, while others simply make it hard to find out just by looking at the files themselves. Web searches are recommended for those cases.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roller said:


> Some games display comprehensive audio options, while others keep it to a minimum, which unfortunately isn't a direct indicator of what kind of audio support the games has.
> 
> An easier way to check for which audio renderer is used on (most) games is to look in the installed game folder, which in the case of OpenAL and FMOD (just as examples) do have files straight on the root folder with the audio libraries. However, some games keep files on subfolders, while others simply make it hard to find out just by looking at the files themselves. Web searches are recommended for those cases.


 
   
  I can't emphasize this enough.
   
  Take Psychonauts, for example. The current Steam version had the OpenAL options removed from the in-game menu, which may cause some people to mistakenly believe they removed hardware audio support altogether, but it's very easy to tweak them just by going into the game directory and editing an .INI file. Set everything up properly, and it clearly sounds like an OpenAL game should with precise positional audio.
   
  Amnesia: The Dark Descent is another odd case, where Frictional Games considers OpenAL devices other than the default "Generic Software" to be unsupported (in stark contrast to the earlier Penumbra trilogy), so you won't ever see them in the configuration interface's drop-down box. But again, it's very easy to override if you know what .INI file to look at and edit.
   
  Then there's this post on forcing OpenAL in Borderlands 2, which gives me a little hope for UnrealEngine3.5-based games that generally default to XAudio2 or FMOD Ex.
   
  Even then, you have the weird cases like Unreal Tournament, Thief 1/2, System Shock 2, Enemy Engaged, and so on that didn't originally have OpenAL support, having been released in the days of DirectSound3D, but OAL was implemented in later patches.


----------



## Evshrug

Roller,
I think I get it now, between NamelessPFG and yourself. Yay, right!? It's too bad 3D audio libraries and algorithms are cripplingly political instead of widely used 3rd party developments like Havok Physics and the Unreal game engine.

I wish that some company, like Creative, that's developed universal headphone filters and proprietary sound processing would wade in and strike a deal with Microsoft and/or Sony to have their tech and a headphone port built-in to the next consoles. Think of how many people ask how to do this, and the amount of cable-cludging Turtle Beach, Mad Catz/Tritton, and Skullcandy/Astro have to go through to enable headphone functionality, while meanwhile a headphone jack has almost always been included on a home receiver? Such a deal would be akin to Microsoft's move for exclusive OS for IBM computers! Way more lucrative than Creative's current push to compete in the crowded Bluetooth cellphone speaker market (even with their technical expertise)! And since so many major games are console ports, setting the new bar for gaming must-have features would benefit all gamer segments! Distinct advantage for one console vs another! Kids affording more gadgets! Waaaaaaaa I want to earn a living thinking up stuff like this!

NamelessPFG,
I loved Psychonauts! I'm having my girlfriend play it on the original Xbox currently, lol. For games without options-menu support for OpenAL support, how do you edit the .INI file? Do you need a hex editor, or can you just use notepad and paste in some code from the Internet?

Hopefully indeed there is hope for future 3D audio in games, good to hear it can be enabled in Borderlands 2. Was CryEngine and the latest Unreal engine (the one in "The Samaritan" demo video) stripped of any kind of 3D audio support? What audio support is in DirectX11?

To anyone,
Anyone have experiences with the MyEars software (trouble word) that has been talked about by SoAmusing777 lately? It's "just" another filter algorithm like DH and CMSS-3D, and MyEars is again limited to just 2D, but then again, it's $20 and could be just as good as DH. Even though they added FMOD support I am still skeptical, but I wanted to know other's take on it.


----------



## Roller

Glad to see you got a better understanding of it 
   
  I definitely agree that Creative should push to get some of their tech available on 3rd party products, which is something they seem to be a bit unwilling to do so at the present time. And with their expertise regarding OpenAL, they could make a significant wave on all gaming, for as developers picked up on OpenAL for their games (which is fully portable for consoles), then the entire gaming ecossystem could benefit from it, up to the point where even onboard audio chips would have better gaming audio (fully rendered through software, but that's beyond the point).
   
  CryEngine used FMOD from the ground up, with FMOD Ex having extension compatibility to use hardware audio features, but I seem to recall Crysis series only ran on software, as opposed to games like Bioshock and World of Warcraft, that do have full hardware audio support.
   
  It is also worth noting that NamelessPFG pointed out some time ago that the latest Counter-Strike Global Offensive game can also have improved audio through command tweaking.
   
  About MyEars, I looked at it a few months ago, but trial results didn't seem to impress much, while at the time there was another solution named 4D something (I truly can't recall the complete name) that promised improved and adaptable HRTF filters, but there has been no news since then.
   
  One tech I'd like to see widespread is Rapture3D, an improved OpenAL renderer that is quite customizable (it had at least 10 performance presets, last time I checked) and can replace all generic OpenAL libraries on supporting games.
   
  EDIT: Forgot to add that no game requires any sort of hex editing, it's usually just a matter of switching the OpenAL device used. However, it doesn't always work the same way, as some games can require specific strings regarding installed audio hardware devices. But for the most part, it's a painless process.


----------



## NamelessPFG

As a rule of thumb, if it's an .INI file, then you can open it up in almost any text editor because it's really just a plain text file with a fancy extension and some strings and variables that the game engine reads to configure itself. It's not that hard, if you take some time to read all the options in the file so you know what you can adjust.
   
  What Creative probably should have done was compete head-on with Firelight Technologies (FMOD developers) and everyone else in making an audio middleware package for game developers...or just hand off OpenAL and all their acquired Aureal and Sensaura tech to Blue Ripple Sound (Rapture3D developers) or something, whatever it takes to make proper 3D audio in games the standard again, PC and console alike.
   
  Instead, what they're doing now is sitting on it and hope that it's a selling point for their sound cards, which works on people like me who are ridiculously demanding about perfect audio support for older games and hang out at places like VOGONS, but does not work at all on people who are only interested in today's games. I see it happen time and time again here on Head-Fi.


----------



## Shisno

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> As a rule of thumb, if it's an .INI file, then you can open it up in almost any text editor because it's really just a plain text file with a fancy extension and some strings and variables that the game engine reads to configure itself. It's not that hard, if you take some time to read all the options in the file so you know what you can adjust.
> 
> What Creative probably should have done was compete head-on with Firelight Technologies (FMOD developers) and everyone else in making an audio middleware package for game developers...or just hand off OpenAL and all their acquired Aureal and Sensaura tech to Blue Ripple Sound (Rapture3D developers) or something, whatever it takes to make proper 3D audio in games the standard again, PC and console alike.
> 
> Instead, what they're doing now is sitting on it and hope that it's a selling point for their sound cards, which works on people like me who are ridiculously demanding about perfect audio support for older games and hang out at places like VOGONS, but does not work at all on people who are only interested in today's games. I see it happen time and time again here on Head-Fi.


 
  The root of the problem is the ****eads all buying "Call of dookie MCMLXXIV", quality no longer matters in games.  The idiot sheep children will obediently march off to gamestop the second the next serving of dribble is meted out by their EA/Activision overlords... and they'll ask for seconds.  I feel so old when I say this... but, screw this generation of gamer kids.  They're all a group of hopelessly stupid ****s.  I remember playing GREAT games like The Dig, Grim Fandango, Psychonauts, Baldur's Gate; games that required THOUGHT... and actually had story.
  Ok, going to /rant.   But, that's essentially your problem.  A bunch of idiots whom think mediocrity is something desirable.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> As a rule of thumb, if it's an .INI file, then you can open it up in almost any text editor because it's really just a plain text file with a fancy extension and some strings and variables that the game engine reads to configure itself. It's not that hard, if you take some time to read all the options in the file so you know what you can adjust.
> 
> What Creative probably should have done was compete head-on with Firelight Technologies (FMOD developers) and everyone else in making an audio middleware package for game developers...or just hand off OpenAL and all their acquired Aureal and Sensaura tech to Blue Ripple Sound (Rapture3D developers) or something, whatever it takes to make proper 3D audio in games the standard again, PC and console alike.
> 
> Instead, what they're doing now is sitting on it and hope that it's a selling point for their sound cards, which works on people like me who are ridiculously demanding about perfect audio support for older games and hang out at places like VOGONS, but does not work at all on people who are only interested in today's games. I see it happen time and time again here on Head-Fi.


 
   
  Truer words rarely have been spoken 
   
  FMOD by itself is a software audio renderer but unlike the dreadful XAudio2, it actually has an hardware pipeline available for use with all cards that have features like hardware EAX up to version 2 (like Asus cards and specific onboard audio chips) as well as full-on hardware accelerated audio beyond that, up to the point where hardware OpenAL and EAX 5 can be used (X-Fi chip cards only).
   
  From the start, Creative was never willing to pass on their tech to other manufacturers unless licensing deals were struck, like how Auzentech licensed the X-Fi chip and made excellent cards like the X-Fi Prelude and X-Fi Forte, but other than that there hasn't been any significant similar deals like that.
  Now, they do hold what is undisputedly the best gaming audio features on the market, and I honestly think they could make their tech usage more widespread i they did something similar to what Nvidia and AMD do in terms of having optimizations for their hardware. Also, it would be important that games at stock would already be passable, but would improve immersion and competitiveness when supported audio hardware was found on the system.
   
  On the legacy game audio subject, I would absolutely love if Creative provided an (even if optional) emulation system for wavetable synthesis boards like the AWE32 (moreso than the AWE64 that sometimes had issues with AWE32-supported games, and AWE64 were exceptionally rare). Games simply sounded better, SFX and BGM were simply of much higher quality.
  NamelessPFG, if you do stumble upon something like AWE32 emulation, please do let me know. So far, I've only seen people trying to make DOS drivers to emulate it but hidden Creative registers have made it something hard to accomplish.
   
  EDIT: Shisno, curiously Call of Duty 2 did have base hardware accelerated audio which was quite useful and provided better positional cue accuracy than stock software audio. Of course that sample quality was lower, but that was dependent on what Activision used at the time.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Believe me, if I knew of any AWE32 emulators that could handle Eradicator's AWE mode properly (which basically loads sound effects as a SoundFont that the EMU8000 can process), I wouldn't have to buy an actual AWE32 and then hunt down a reasonably modern motherboard with an ISA slot that it would work in.
   
  I'd also like to see an ASP/CSP emulator, even if TFX is the only game ever known to actually use it.
   
  As it stands, Creative is infamously secretive with important hardware details like registers and whatnot, enough so that things like Linux driver support was very lacking for many years. It's only in the last year or two that X-Fi cards even had out-of-the-box support in most Linux distros, and even then, it's just the basic sound card functions, no hardware OpenAL or anything fancy like that.
   
  It doesn't help that there are few efforts really committed to making old PC games playable on modern systems. DOSBox is one of the most notable, along with more focused projects like ScummVM, but a lot of Win9x-era games are still left out in the cold because all the current virtual machine software focuses on 2000/XP and later to the point of not bothering with 3D acceleration for Win9x guests, let alone any form of hardware sound acceleration. (Aureal Vortex card emulation would totally make my day...)


----------



## Roller

For the most part, I've found DOSBox to run just about any games I throw at it, as well as 16-bit apps on the side. There were some issues during the 0.72 era, but since 0.74 was released, it was pretty much usable on all games, and I've found that I managed to run DOS games better than packages that came with both a DOS game and prepackaged DOSBox setup, not having nearly ideal settings, and making emulation slower than it should be. Also, DOSBox has full compatibility with Windows Vista and newer.
   
  If memory serves right, I remember playing Outlaws through A3D on a first gen SB Live! quadrophonic model, and it was quite amazing.


----------



## chewy4

Man, I'm not sure that the gaming audio features of the HD are worth all of its flaws...
   
  Terrible experience with this card so far, I might return it and put my STX back in.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> Man, I'm not sure that the gaming audio features of the HD are worth all of its flaws...
> 
> Terrible experience with this card so far, I might return it and put my STX back in.


 
   
  What flaws?


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





roller said:


> What flaws?


 
   
  There's an audible hiss when amping both the headphone out and line out. Starts at about 3:00 on my amps volume knob. I don't get this with my STX even when using headphone out. I don't understand why this is there if their specs are so similar to the STX.
   
  Audio will sometimes just stop working on certain applications or just all together. Which is a pretty big problem for a soundcard to have.
   
  And Steam has coincidentally stopped working right after I put the card in and I blame Creative


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> There's an audible hiss when amping both the headphone out and line out. Starts at about 3:00 on my amps volume knob. I don't get this with my STX even when using headphone out. I don't understand why this is there if their specs are so similar to the STX.
> 
> Audio will sometimes just stop working on certain applications or just all together. Which is a pretty big problem for a soundcard to have.
> 
> And Steam has coincidentally stopped working right after I put the card in and I blame Creative


 
   
  What gear are you using?
   
  And how exactly have you installed the card?


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





roller said:


> What gear are you using?
> 
> And how exactly have you installed the card?


 
  I'm using it hooked up to an Asgard.

 Here is my install process:
  1. Uninstall Asus's drivers.
  2. Restart and shut down.
  3. Replaced STX with HD.
  4. Installed all the stuff I needed via the CD, restarted when prompted, and ran the updater to update the drivers.
  5. Restarted a couple more times after running into some problems and messing around with sample rate and bit depth.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> I'm using it hooked up to an Asgard.
> 
> Here is my install process:
> 1. Uninstall Asus's drivers.
> ...


 
   
  Are you running audio through the RCA out to the Asgard?
   
  Did you update the drivers alone or did you also update other Creative software? Also, are you running the original OpenAL libraries or the updated ones?
   
  After you set the desired output format on the OS audio settings, everything else should be configured through the Creative software alone, be it on the Audio Control Panel, Console Launcher or ALchemy.
   
  And which mode did you have your card on?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> Man, I'm not sure that the gaming audio features of the HD are worth all of its flaws...
> 
> Terrible experience with this card so far, I might return it and put my STX back in.


 
  Did you disable on-board audio (in the bios)?
  Have you tried deleting all Creative software and doing a fresh install?
  Make sure the Titanium HD is well seated in is slot?


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





roller said:


> Are you running audio through the RCA out to the Asgard?
> 
> Did you update the drivers alone or did you also update other Creative software? Also, are you running the original OpenAL libraries or the updated ones?
> 
> ...


 
  Yeah I'm running audio from RCA, tried headphone out too and the hiss is at the same level.
   
  I updated all Creative software. So I'm guessing that would include the OpenAL libraries although I'm not sure I recall seeing anything about them in the updater. Everything I've updated so far has been with their provided tool, drivers are at 3.0.2004.
   
  And I've been using both modes. Switching back and forth between them seems to break/fix things sometimes...


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Did you disable on-board audio (in the bios)?
> Have you tried deleting all Creative software and doing a fresh install?
> Make sure the Titanium HD is well seated in is slot?


 
  I can try re-seating it and disabling on-board audio. I think my on-board audio is automatically disabled but worth a shot.
   
  I'll try a re-install as a last resort.


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> Yeah I'm running audio from RCA, tried headphone out too and the hiss is at the same level.
> 
> I updated all Creative software. So I'm guessing that would include the OpenAL libraries although I'm not sure I recall seeing anything about them in the updater. Everything I've updated so far has been with their provided tool, drivers are at 3.0.2004.
> 
> And I've been using both modes. Switching back and forth between them seems to break/fix things sometimes...


 
   
  What headphones do you have?
   
  It seems your card might be faulty as I've yet to see any sort of hissing on the Titanium HD, even with too easy to drive headphones that would be prone to hiss. Is it a Rev. A or a Rev. C card?
   
  Which modes have you been using? The card has 3 modes, Audio Creation Mode, Game Mode and Entertainment Mode.
   
  About OpenAL, can you check file versions of OpenAL32.dll present on your system?
   
  EDIT: I didn't mention disabling the onboard audio chip because that's a given when installing.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> I can try re-seating it and disabling on-board audio. I think my on-board audio is automatically disabled but worth a shot.
> 
> I'll try a re-install as a last resort.


 
  On-board audio does not automatically disable, you have to set it for "Disable" in the bios.
  I think we found your problem


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





roller said:


> What headphones do you have?
> 
> It seems your card might be faulty as I've yet to see any sort of hissing on the Titanium HD, even with too easy to drive headphones that would be prone to hiss. Is it a Rev. A or a Rev. C card?
> 
> ...


 
  The hissing isn't present when plugging my headphones directly into the sound card. It can't reach a high enough volume for it. Only when plugged into my Asgard, and the hissing goes away when I turn down Window's volume so the Asgard isn't the device generating the hiss. Headphones are the HE-400 though, and I have no idea what revision the card is but I just got it new.
   
  The two modes I've been using are game and entertainment.
   
  OpenAL version is 6.14.357.25 according to the DLL. Last modified today but created a couple months back.



purpleangel said:


> On-board audio does not automatically disable, you have to set it for "Disable" in the bios.
> I think we found your problem


 

  That really depends on the mobo I believe. Mine has auto, enabled and disabled. I set it to disabled manually as well as re-installed everything, I'll see if it clears up some of the audio problems with time.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> The hissing isn't present when plugging my headphones directly into the sound card. It can't reach a high enough volume for it. Only when plugged into my Asgard, and the hissing goes away when I turn down Window's volume so the Asgard isn't the device generating the hiss. Headphones are the HE-400 though, and I have no idea what revision the card is but I just got it new.
> The two modes I've been using are game and entertainment.
> OpenAL version is 6.14.357.25 according to the DLL. Last modified today but created a couple months back.
> That really depends on the mobo I believe. Mine has auto, enabled and disabled. I set it to disabled manually as well as re-installed everything, I'll see if it clears up some of the audio problems with time.


 
  I'm making a wild guess that the "auto" features tells windows to use on-board audio only if no other audio hardware is detected (but may not be perfect).
  But I think it's just safer to set it for disable.


----------



## NamelessPFG

You still shouldn't be hearing any hiss from the Titanium HD. Strange.
   
  Note that I only use the RCA output on mine, fed into an old Onkyo receiver that then amps it to speaker levels and feeds that to a Stax SRD-7/SB. And given the reputation that Stax and electrostatics in general have for being ruthlessly revealing, if there is any hiss coming from the sound card, I'd know.
   
  Also, audio doesn't outright stop working with the Titanium HD in my experience. Fares better than most other X-Fi cards I've used in that regard; perhaps Creative wasn't kidding when they said they rebuilt the Titanium HD's drivers for Vista/Win7, at XP's expense.


----------



## Roller

Just realized I asked about the wrong file. chewy4, what is the file version of the wrap_oal.dll found on your system32 folder? If needed, I can upload an updated version of the file, which increases compatibility further.
   
  Also, the Titanium HD paired with a Schiit Asgard doesn't display hissing, and you reporting that the hissing only occurs when adding the amp might actually indicate the issue lying on the amp side rather than the card's side.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> You still shouldn't be hearing any hiss from the Titanium HD. Strange.
> 
> Note that I only use the RCA output on mine, fed into an old Onkyo receiver that then amps it to speaker levels and feeds that to a Stax SRD-7/SB. And given the reputation that Stax and electrostatics in general have for being ruthlessly revealing, if there is any hiss coming from the sound card, I'd know.
> 
> Also, audio doesn't outright stop working with the Titanium HD in my experience. Fares better than most other X-Fi cards I've used in that regard; perhaps Creative wasn't kidding when they said they rebuilt the Titanium HD's drivers for Vista/Win7, at XP's expense.


 
   
  How high does the volume go on your Onkyo/HD setup? The hissing only starts at ear damaging volumes and it is pretty quiet. It might not make a difference with normal listening but it really shouldn't be there at all. 
  Quote: 





roller said:


> Just realized I asked about the wrong file. chewy4, what is the file version of the wrap_oal.dll found on your system32 folder? If needed, I can upload an updated version of the file, which increases compatibility further.
> 
> Also, the Titanium HD paired with a Schiit Asgard doesn't display hissing, and you reporting that the hissing only occurs when adding the amp might actually indicate the issue lying on the amp side rather than the card's side.


 
  That file is version 2.2.07.
   
  The amp causes no hissing when paired with an STX, and no hissing when Window's volume is lowered. So the hissing noise is within the input signal of the amp.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> How high does the volume go on your Onkyo/HD setup? The hissing only starts at ear damaging volumes and it is pretty quiet. It might not make a difference with normal listening but it really shouldn't be there at all.


 
   
  I usually keep the Titanium HD volume at 30% and the Onkyo receiver volume at roughly 9 o'clock. That's plenty loud for me, and I sometimes still worry about ear damage. (My ears are unusually deficient at 22 as is, from not being able to hear above 15-16 KHz to imbalances at certain frequencies that I initially blamed headphones for 'til I noticed the same imbalances among all of them...)
   
  I did max out the Titanium HD volume and started cranking up the Onkyo receiver to check for hiss, and it did start cropping up past 3 o'clock on the volume knob, but any sound that would have played at such volume settings would likely damage my ears AND made my precious Lambda's drivers arc (which is a very, very bad thing when it means zapping holes in the diaphragm), provided that the receiver didn't go into protect mode first.
   
  The important thing for me is that it's not audible at all at sane, non-ear-damaging volumes, or even louder-than-my-comfort-zone volumes. There's no need for me to be complaining about audio flaws that I can't even hear in my usage.


----------



## chewy4

True that it should be a non-issue, but it does make me question their specs given that I don't get noise with the lower SNR headphone out of the STX. Sound quality seems to be good though.
   
  Software is still really wonky for me. When switching modes I sometimes have to change settings back and forth in order to get any audio. For example I had to change from headphones to speakers to get any audio. But then when I switched back to headphones it was working.


----------



## XTCrispy

Hello, all. I've seen the opening post a dozen times already, but never made an inquiry. So I've been linked here yet again, this time by Roller, who seems to be above me.
   
  Anyways, I wanted to get opinions on Dolby Headset vs. CMSS-3D Headset.
   
  Which do you guys prefer? Why? And for anyone who has tried both technologies with the AKG Q701's, I'll be getting those soon, so your opinions hold a bit more weight.
   
  Thanks in advance.
   
  Edit 1:
  Reading some of these posts, NamelessPFG is using an Onkyo receiver as an amplifier? I have this Onkyo reciever hooked up to my PC (serves as a home theater PC when needed). Is this a viable replacement to a specialized amplifier like the Objective 2?


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





xtcrispy said:


> Hello, all. I've seen the opening post a dozen times already, but never made an inquiry. So I've been linked here yet again, this time by Roller, who seems to be above me.
> 
> Anyways, I wanted to get opinions on Dolby Headset vs. CMSS-3D Headset.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Well, first you have to keep in mind DH (Dolby Headphone) and CMSS-3D and surround virtualization techs, created for the same purpose of providing surround to an audio stream. They work in slightly different ways, with DH emphasizing bass while CMSS-3D emphasizes treble. For competitive gaming, it's more logical to use CMSS-3D than DH, however different people have different ear sizes and shapes which then changes how one perceives the virtual surround effect.
   
  Keep in mind that a soundcard geared for gaming should at least have proper support for features like EAX, OpenAL and surround virtualization. All Asus soundcards have EAX up to version 2, software OpenAL and DH. Creative X-Fi cards have EAX up to version 5, hardware OpenAL, CMSS-3D and positional cue improvement algorithms that are exclusive to X-Fi cards and work on all games, from games with hardware accelerated audio renderers all the way down to basic software audio renderers.
   
  Considering you're looking for optimal gaming audio performance, as well as overall high quality audio playback (be it games, music or movies), then the Creative X-Fi Titanium HD is the best card for that purpose. There are newer Creative cards with similar output quality to the Titanium HD, but they lose some gaming audio support, while the Asus Xonar Essence STX has comparable output quality to Titanium HD but has lower gaming audio support than any X-Fi powered card, as well as the newer Creative Z series cards.
   
  About your headphones, the Q701 are regarded as one of the few valid alternatives to the Audio Technica ATH-AD700 in terms of competitive gaming prowess, while at the same time being more capable of immersive gaming than the bass anemic AD700.
   
  I might not have read the specs properly, but it seems your receiver doesn't have a headphone out. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But that receiver looks quite good, and would be more than capable of driving the Q701.


----------



## XTCrispy

Quote: 





roller said:


> Well, first you have to keep in mind DH (Dolby Headphone) and CMSS-3D and surround virtualization techs, created for the same purpose of providing surround to an audio stream. They work in slightly different ways, with DH emphasizing bass while CMSS-3D emphasizes treble. For competitive gaming, it's more logical to use CMSS-3D than DH, however different people have different ear sizes and shapes which then changes how one perceives the virtual surround effect.
> 
> Keep in mind that a soundcard geared for gaming should at least have proper support for features like EAX, OpenAL and surround virtualization. All Asus soundcards have EAX up to version 2, software OpenAL and DH. Creative X-Fi cards have EAX up to version 5, hardware OpenAL, CMSS-3D and positional cue improvement algorithms that are exclusive to X-Fi cards and work on all games, from games with hardware accelerated audio renderers all the way down to basic software audio renderers.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Alright. That's it. You've got me sold. You run an aggressive marketing campaign, almost like you'll profit. Thanks for all the effort you've put up the entire day. I'll be getting the Titanium HD.
   
  As for the Onkyo receiver, I took a pic of the front, and I'm pretty sure that's a 1/4" jack to the left. I'd have to get up off my chair to change the volume, though, as my PC setup is to the side. I'll probably still get the O2, though.
   
  Well, that's it. We've come full circle. I'm getting your exact recommendations from your first reply. Forgive my skepticism, but you understand. Thanks again, Roller. 
   
  I'm still open to others' opinions on the subject, please share them!


----------



## Roller

Quote: 





xtcrispy said:


> Alright. That's it. You've got me sold. You run an aggressive marketing campaign, almost like you'll profit. Thanks for all the effort you've put up the entire day. I'll be getting the Titanium HD.
> 
> As for the Onkyo receiver, I took a pic of the front, and I'm pretty sure that's a 1/4" jack to the left. I'd have to get up off my chair to change the volume, though, as my PC setup is to the side. I'll probably still get the O2, though.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Glad to see you've made up your mind 
   
  I've actually heard that before, and it couldn't be further from the truth. The reason I recommended you that card is because it doesn't compromise a shred of gaming audio capabilities, while at the same time providing excellent sound quality, given that it's a flagship consumer soundcard.
   
  I kept going around the specs and the rear side (quite busy, I might add) and didn't find it, while it was on the front all this time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  You do good to be skeptic, especially with more expensive purchases, it's consumer conscious of you. Curiously, most Head-Fiers tend to be that way


----------



## chewy4

After spending some time with my new card I've got to say that CMSS-3D blows away Dolby Headphone in terms of positional sound. I've been playing Biohock 2 and I have had absolutely no problem telling where voices and such are coming from, I snap right to them. It somehow exceeds real life positional audio for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  DH on the other hand the positioning is always a bit blurred. It makes for a more smooth and in some cases more immersive experience but it undoubtedly would hurt your performance in any competetive game.
   
  I think the card is a keeper for me. The software and drivers were initially very frustrating but now it's not as big of a deal since I know what to do to fix it when it breaks. But thanks for trying to fix my problems with it guys.


----------



## genclaymore

It really up to the person, i wouldn't say one is better then the other, more like what sound good to a person ears while their gaming.  I tend to like Dolby headphone over Cmss3D headphone, but i do like both as long I have it config correctly in the windows control panel for audio settings.  Just like how I like Tru Studio 3D headphone settings as long i using the same setting I mention.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> It really up to the person, i wouldn't say one is better then the other, more like what sound good to a person ears while their gaming.  I tend to like Dolby headphone over Cmss3D headphone, but i do like both as long I have it config correctly in the windows control panel for audio settings.  Just like how I like Tru Studio 3D headphone settings as long i using the same setting I mention.


 
  I'd say they each have their uses. It's a shame we can't have both on one card....
   
  For me Dolby Headphone sounded more realistic, with positional audio that bleeds around a bit. Especially noticable with stereo audio, where stuff played on right channel only will bleed into the left channel. CMSS-3D on the otherhand is really precise. Maybe if I would have been using DH more on reference mode it would have been different though, but my experience so far is that I can locate stuff by sound a hundred times easier with CMSS-3D.


----------



## genclaymore

Yea I pretty much used DH Mode 1 which was Reference when I used it since it doesn't add any echo.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





xtcrispy said:


> Hello, all. I've seen the opening post a dozen times already, but never made an inquiry. So I've been linked here yet again, this time by Roller, who seems to be above me.
> 
> Anyways, I wanted to get opinions on Dolby Headset vs. CMSS-3D Headset.
> 
> ...


 
   
  For me, CMSS-3D Headphone and Dolby Headphone perform generally equally in software-mixed games when it comes to positioning. The former skews toward treble a bit, the latter toward bass. Nothing an EQ can't handle.
   
  But in games with proper 3D audio support (DS3D/OAL), then it's no contest. Good as Dolby Headphone's virtual 5.1/7.1 may be, it cannot compete against a proper binaural HRTF 3D mix of the sort that CMSS-3D Headphone provides with those games, or even what Aureal Vortex cards did with A3D and DS3D games in the late 1990s.
   
  As for receivers serving as headphone amps, it likely depends on the receiver in question, but it wouldn't hurt to try using one for that purpose. The reason I use a receiver as an amp just has to do with the unusual amp requirements of electrostatic headphones, along with the lack of funds to purchase a proper direct-drive Stax amp. (Even older models like the SRM-1/Mk2 Pro will still cost you $300-450 used!)


----------



## chewy4

So I was wondering...
   
  Should 7.1 be showing up in my Window's speaker settings with the Titanium HD? I noticed on creative's site it has a lot more options and I can only choose between Stereo and 5.1.
   
  When my STX was in I had all the other options I believe, or at least 7.1.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> So I was wondering...
> 
> Should 7.1 be showing up in my Window's speaker settings with the Titanium HD? I noticed on creative's site it has a lot more options and I can only choose between Stereo and 5.1.
> 
> When my STX was in I had all the other options I believe, or at least 7.1.


 
   
  You won't ever see 7.1 with the X-Fi Titanium HD. The card does 5.1 max, and that's only through S/PDIF with Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect enabled. For analog output, it only does two channels (stereo). That's what it was built for.
   
  Not that I think you're missing much, coming from cards like the X-Fi Prelude and X-Fi Forte that did have 7.1 support (through analog output, if needed). It's still quite easy to tell where sounds are coming from in games with software-mixed audio that depend on the Windows speaker setting.
   
  If anything, those extra two channels would be more useful if they were height channels that could distinguish high and low sounds, but no, they're just extra side channels.


----------



## chewy4

Alright cool just making sure. I'm guessing that means that I should use 5.1 in the game settings rather than 7.1...
   
  Does anyone here know what settings are best for Bioshock 2? I've been using "Surround" and it's been sounding good so far for the most part(I think even sound height comes into play as I've snapped to people walking on balconies above me), but there are several options. I also did a quick search through some ini files for EAX and OpenAL and didn't find anything.


----------



## Evshrug

Just a note, I finally have a retail copy of Win 8 pro. Took advantage of the really cheap 2012 upgrade price, and I look forward to Steam and some serious happy gaming time!


----------



## Rahmiel

Hello, I've recently had some issues with my creative soundcard (x-fi titanium, but I don't think it's the HD one..) and I've always wondered if I was truly getting the most out of it.  I have a Tritton AX pro headset and I'm looking to upgrade.  I've read a bunch of replies, but most of this stuff I don't understand or cannot follow.
   
  I've seen mad lust's review on the ax pro and while I'm not completely disappointed with them, I also do not have the experience he/she does with other headsets to say whether or not they're good or bad.  I've enjoyed them, and I've done really well with positional audio but if there's better.. I want better.  The headset I want should also have a mic, as I like to play with friends.
   
  I've looked into the sennheiser pc 360 headset and I'm very much interested.  However MLE's post is mostly regarding console headsets.  Are there some links anyone can post me about which headset to grab?  Or headset, setups?  I'm considering going without a mic on the headset if someone has an elegant solution/stand alone mic I can use to still talk to my friends if the headset has that audio that is just far and away better.
   
  I'm trusting your recommendations, and furthermore any setup tips you guys have to getting the most out of my card.  I don't understand what s/pdif and all that stuff is.  Only recently I've actually gotten sound out of my spdif into my optical out but it's only 2 channels.  The light on my ax pro box has dolby digital lit up but.. this whole thing is confusing.. mostly because when I try to make changes windows (running win7 btw) tells me that the device is in use.  However I'm not running anything.  So.. anyway..
   
  Again, anyone have recommendations on headsets?  I don't know what stax are, or where to purchase them.  I did a google search and I came up with some results but nothing like a retailer or models or.. anything.
   
  So lost, but I want the best.  Love this pc centric audio thread.  If only I had found this earlier this year and avoided the trittons.


----------



## executioner

Have an asus xonar dg, is there a quicker way to turn on/off dolby headphones other than using the asus control panel.  The xonar is in a htpc running win7 with xbmc and the soundcard is connected optical to receiver and headphones through the front panel of the computer case.  Both are outputting sound at the same time, so when turnin on dh I get the processing on the speakers so I cannot leave it on.  
   
  Would like to simplify things when switching to headphones, right now I have to minize xbmc, open xonar panel, click dolby headphone, close that, back to xbmc.  I mean is rather easy takes a few clicks but probably can be faster with a shortcut or command line or something because with an htpc you wan to streamline things as much as possible.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





rahmiel said:


> I've looked into the sennheiser pc 360 headset and I'm very much interested.  However MLE's post is mostly regarding console headsets.  Are there some links anyone can post me about which headset to grab?  Or headset, setups?  I'm considering going without a mic on the headset if someone has an elegant solution/stand alone mic I can use to still talk to my friends if the headset has that audio that is just far and away better.
> 
> I'm trusting your recommendations, and furthermore any setup tips you guys have to getting the most out of my card.  I don't understand what s/pdif and all that stuff is.  Only recently I've actually gotten sound out of my spdif into my optical out but it's only 2 channels.  The light on my ax pro box has dolby digital lit up but.. this whole thing is confusing.. mostly because when I try to make changes windows (running win7 btw) tells me that the device is in use.  However I'm not running anything.  So.. anyway..
> 
> ...


 
   
  The reason I link MLE's thread is that he simply has experience with a lot of the more popular headphones out there. Headphones that I don't feel like buying strictly to review and resell, because I've practically committed myself to Stax for more expensive audio equipment. Note that I do really mean audiophile headphones, not gaming headsets.
   
  As for Stax, they're very much an audiophile brand as the only headphone manufacturer that specializes in electrostatic driver technology (whereas other brands only occasionally release electrostatic setups, most of which are discontinued save for the Koss ESP/950) with some very questionable distribution decisions. You have to shop around on Head-Fi B/S/T, AudiogoN, Yahoo! Japan via Kuboten, or maybe eBay to have a shot at getting a good deal, and chances are you're going to be paying $350 or more for the more affordable setups.
   
  On top of that, they have special amplification needs, so you have to budget for that too. Most cheaper setups come with a transformer box designed to connect to speaker wire outputs; any old integrated receiver will do the job there. But if you want a standalone Stax amp, you're going to pay at least $300-400 for something like an SRM-1/Mk2 Pro, probably much more with the newer models like the SRM-252S. You might get lucky and, say, get a SR-Lambda Pro + SRM-1/Mk2 Pro for $400 combined and shipped (it's happened before), but don't count on it.
   
  Finally, when most people on Head-Fi talk Stax, they're in the High-end Audio section and focus on the flagship SR-007 ($1,600 to $2,500) to SR-009 ($4,800 to $5,000+) models and the really expensive amps like the KGSSHV and Blue Hawaii SE. The more affordable Lambda series (the ugly rectangular-looking ones) get overlooked a lot by comparison, but not to the degree that I overlooked the occasional post on Head-Fi singing praises about them for gaming. I'm quite grateful for that.
   
  All of that said, I've gone the Onkyo receiver -> Stax SRD-7/SB -> Stax SR-Lambda (and a cheap desk microphone) route for a year now, with absolutely no regrets. I've found that I don't even like the recent numerical-series Lambdas like the SR-202 as much in terms of sound presentation and comfort.
   
  Also, the ModMic now has all those production issues sorted out, and the product itself is finally shipping out to those who pre-ordered the 2.0 revision. Another revision with an in-line mute switch is coming within a month, along with yet another revision featuring a detachable cable. Can't wait for that one, as I'd much rather keep using my cheap desk mic than give up my Stax for a comparatively crappy headset as my primary PC headphone.
   
  S/PDIF is a digital audio protocol. Your optical/Toslink audio jack is just one way to transmit S/PDIF, the other way being a coaxial RCA jack. If you want to transmit 5.1 over S/PDIF, which has only enough bandwidth for two channels of LPCM, you need to compress it in real-time using Dolby Digital Live (or DTS Connect, but most surround processors for console gaming headsets won't accept DTS). If DDL is enabled, you get 5.1; if it isn't, you get 2.0. Simple as that.
   
  Now, headsets...the general advice is to go with a Sennheiser PC360, go with a proper audiophile headphone + ModMic, or go home and not waste money. I know it's not exactly cheap, but you want quality, right?
   
  Does all of that make sense?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





executioner said:


> Have an asus xonar dg, is there a quicker way to turn on/off dolby headphones other than using the asus control panel.  The xonar is in a htpc running win7 with xbmc and the soundcard is connected optical to receiver and headphones through the front panel of the computer case.  Both are outputting sound at the same time, so when turnin on dh I get the processing on the speakers so I cannot leave it on.
> 
> Would like to simplify things when switching to headphones, right now I have to minize xbmc, open xonar panel, click dolby headphone, close that, back to xbmc.  I mean is rather easy takes a few clicks but probably can be faster with a shortcut or command line or something because with an htpc you wan to streamline things as much as possible.


 
  I think someone makes a program that makes it easier to switch, but can not remember the programs name.


----------



## Rahmiel

Thanks Nameless.. your info has helped me a bunch.  I finally found a stax usa website and checked out those prices.  I so want the top end but I just have to be realistic.  I'll look on the sites you listed and search for some deals.. but I'm likely to just go with the sennheiser pc 360 (thanks for that recommendation).
   
  More curious about the stax setup though.  You said you are running an onkyo receiver, as well as the headset and driver?  So if I got (just imagining here) an sr-009 along with the srm-007tII or simply one of the systems..stax srs-4170, I would still require a receiver?  I would not be able to go from my sound card into the driver.. I would have to go sound card into a receiver (I'm assuming blue hawaii se is one?) then into the driver, then to headset?  I just want to make sure I have that all down correctly, as nothing would drive me more insane than spending $500+ on the headphones and driver (either separately or as a sweet deal together) and then require a good receiver to go with it.
   
  As for the soundblaster x-fi and spdif.. I think I'm starting to understand it.  When I enable dolby digital live in the soundblaster options, it requires the spdif device to output DDL signal but that's NOT the device you want to listen to.  You want to still default and be listening to the creative sb x-fi speakers, correct?  That's something that's driven me mad, because when I enable DDL under the encoder tab, I cannot listen to the spdif device as I get the message "this device is being used by another application".  If I'm listening to the spdif device and then go into the encoder tab, it tells me the device is busy.
   
  I hope I have that soundblaster stuff sorted out properly.  Again, thanks for your reply.. I want to be a huge audiophile and provided I win the lottery (or somehow convince 20+ people it's my birthday and they should chip in on sr-009's  then I'll likely never hear a pair of stax.  I mostly just want to be able to hear the difference for myself, as my hearing is not the greatest, but does that mean I wouldn't be able to tell good from bad?  I pick up so much of gaming from audio ques, either in WoW with target switching in the chaos of battle, listening for that small sound, or fps's and listening for footsteps, there's just so much there.
   
  I'm also trying to get into vinyl (as I think it sounds better than cds) so if I were to get a pair of stax, I would love to pull double duty on them.
   
  Again, can't thank you enough for your reply.  Audio is probably bigger for me than visuals in gaming, and in entertainment.  If I don't have that soundblaster stuff right, could you point out where I went wrong?  Pretty sure I have DDL enabled and getting it to my headphones.  At least, the light on the box is saying it's DDL.


----------



## NamelessPFG

The reason I'm running an Onkyo receiver in my chain is because I'm using an SRD-7/SB that came with my SR-Lambda, and a transformer box (or "energizer", but I tend not to say that because of things like the Koss E/90 "energizer" actually being a direct-drive amp in spite of the label) like that needs speaker-level amp input in order to work since it's not an amplifier in and of itself. Integrated receivers do the job well, and this one I'm using was just sitting in a closet unused otherwise. (It's not one of the famed 1970s Sansui, Marantz or Pioneer receivers, but it's still old enough to not have S/PDIF input at all.)
   
  If you buy an SRM-series amplifier of the sort that Stax is currently selling, you don't need an integrated receiver or other form of speaker amp at all because it _is_ the amp. (Chances are you'd be hard-pressed to afford one anyway given how much those things cost...)
   
  I just have my Titanium HD's RCA outputs run into the receiver, then the receiver amps the signal and puts it out the speaker terminals into my SRD-7/SB, which then finally converts the signal to be usable by any set of Normal bias Stax headphones. Pretty straightforward. For voice chat, I have a desk mic connected directly to the Titanium HD's mic jack.
   
  It may not be easy to afford Stax, especially not the flagship stuff, but if you keep your eyes peeled on the usual second-hand sites and don't mind the transformer box + speaker amp/receiver approach instead of a direct-drive amp, you might just get a good deal. Lambda-series sets naturally command higher prices most of the time, and Sigmas (the big, boxy kind with drivers in front of the ears like AKG K1000s) won't happen unless you're willing to spend $600-1,500 these days, but I still see many SR-3s, SR-5s, and SR-X/Mk3s being sold. (Not that I've ever heard them, but I've been tempted to pick up a few sets for cheap specifically to compare them to the Lambda models that succeeded them.)
   
  You're right about Dolby Digital Live usage. Your default audio device ALWAYS needs to be "Speakers", as in the device that corresponds with the analog output normally, and if you want to just play stereo without DDL enabled, make sure "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" is checked in the settings. It's really confusing for sure, leaving most people going "What?" when they set the "SPDIF Out" as the default and don't hear anything unless they're playing a movie with a pre-encoded DD or DTS track bitstreamed to a decoder.
   
  The easiest way to think about it is that to configure the card properly for S/PDIF usage, you're basically just making it play the same sounds it normally does over the analog channels through the S/PDIF output as well.


----------



## Rahmiel

Hahah, thanks for the reply.  You know, I never heard anything out of my spdif unless I had that "play stereo through whatever" checked.  So I've had that checked but I just unchecked it after reading your post and I still have sound!  Crazy!  I'm just glad I finally have the speakers and spdif all sorted out.  I'm not exactly a technophobe, I mean, I can put together my computer.  But that's what really confuses me is that.. if you tell a component to do something, you figure you should connect to it to get results.  Completely not the case in this situation and I didn't find anything anywhere about "have the spdif do your DDL but still connect/play through your speakers".
   
  Anyway, again, much appreciated.  I ordered a sennheiser pc 360 today from amazon because.. well, free shipping and I saved $24 (more like $50 if I bought it in a local store) and that's what I can afford.  I do plan on rocking some stax at some point, perhaps once I get a good ... record player, turntable, vinyl record reader.. whatever the proper terminology is (taking recommendations on that too, btw).  Bookmarked this thread, and anytime someone has a PC gaming audio question, I can point them in this direction.
   
  You made my year, and if I ever get enough money for stax.. I'm sure going to hit you and your knowledge base up again.
   
  Be safe, and enjoy the holidays.


----------



## Heretic817

So, am I to assume that the Titanium HD is still the card to get over the high end Z series card due to the lack of hardware support for virtual surround sound? (Strictly speaking on Creative)
   
  Why is it that the software codec route automatically considered inferior? In other words where is the virtual surround sound decoding offloaded?


----------



## CFGamescape

Can someone link the O2 amp?


----------



## ozarkcdn

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I just have my Titanium HD's RCA outputs run into the receiver, then the receiver amps the signal and puts it out the speaker terminals into my SRD-7/SB, which then finally converts the signal to be usable by any set of Normal bias Stax headphones. Pretty straightforward. For voice chat, I have a desk mic connected directly to the Titanium HD's mic jack.


 
  I was just actually wondering that.... I have my RCA ->phono to logitech Z4 speaker system input, but wondered if I should be driving the phones off of the hp jack on the card instead of the 'remote sound control docky thingy'.  Are there some particular music tracks that would exploit any weaknesses off of the hp amp of the Z4 vs the hd's hp amp section?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





rahmiel said:


> Hahah, thanks for the reply.  You know, I never heard anything out of my spdif unless I had that "play stereo through whatever" checked.  So I've had that checked but I just unchecked it after reading your post and I still have sound!  Crazy!  I'm just glad I finally have the speakers and spdif all sorted out.  I'm not exactly a technophobe, I mean, I can put together my computer.  But that's what really confuses me is that.. if you tell a component to do something, you figure you should connect to it to get results.  Completely not the case in this situation and I didn't find anything anywhere about "have the spdif do your DDL but still connect/play through your speakers".
> 
> Anyway, again, much appreciated.  I ordered a sennheiser pc 360 today from amazon because.. well, free shipping and I saved $24 (more like $50 if I bought it in a local store) and that's what I can afford.  I do plan on rocking some stax at some point, perhaps once I get a good ... record player, turntable, vinyl record reader.. whatever the proper terminology is (taking recommendations on that too, btw).  Bookmarked this thread, and anytime someone has a PC gaming audio question, I can point them in this direction.
> 
> ...


 
   
  I know, it's counterintuitive to common logic. I've had so many such incidents with setting up technology of all sorts that I lost count.
   
  Speaking of turntables and phono amps, the SRA-series amps have a built-in phono section. Not sure how good it is, but it's there. The only thing is that the relatively common SRA-12S is Normal bias only and still fetches prices on par with the SRM-1s, while the SRA-14S with both Normal and Pro bias output is very rare and sells for a pretty penny whenever it does show up.
   
  Take care, and happy holidays! (Christmas is over, but 2013's about to begin...)
   
  Quote: 





cfgamescape said:


> Can someone link the O2 amp?


 
   
Here's a link to the usual JDS Labs-built Objective2. Most of the time, people are talking about this particular one.
   
  (I tend to just spell it out because "O2" often refers to the Stax SR-007 Omega II here, along with UK cellular carriers, oxygen molecules when people can't type superscripts, and god knows what else.)
   
  Quote: 





ozarkcdn said:


> I was just actually wondering that.... I have my RCA ->phono to logitech Z4 speaker system input, but wondered if I should be driving the phones off of the hp jack on the card instead of the 'remote sound control docky thingy'.  Are there some particular music tracks that would exploit any weaknesses off of the hp amp of the Z4 vs the hd's hp amp section?


 
   
  It never hurts to audition it both ways and let your ears decide.
   
  I'd generally suggest using the jacks directly on the card whenever possible, but the Titanium HD has a design quirk where having anything plugged into the rear or front-panel headphone outputs forcibly mutes the RCA output jacks, with no option to disable it in software. Keep that in mind.
   
  (It doesn't bother me because I use headphones exclusively.)


----------



## CFGamescape

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Here's a link to the usual JDS Labs-built Objective2. Most of the time, people are talking about this particular one.
> 
> (I tend to just spell it out because "O2" often refers to the Stax SR-007 Omega II here, along with UK cellular carriers, oxygen molecules when people can't type superscripts, and god knows what else.)


 
  Awesome, thank you!  So, does this mean the amplification provided by the X-Fi HD is not sufficient (e.g. for cans like the Q701)? 
   
  I'm currently running a Xonar STX + PC360 (w/ UNi drivers).  Would adding this O2 benefit me?
   
  Regardless, the X-Fi HD + O2 + Q701 will be part of my next PC build.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





cfgamescape said:


> Awesome, thank you!  So, does this mean the amplification provided by the X-Fi HD is not sufficient (e.g. for cans like the Q701)?
> 
> I'm currently running a Xonar STX + PC360 (w/ UNi drivers).  Would adding this O2 benefit me?
> 
> Regardless, the X-Fi HD + O2 + Q701 will be part of my next PC build.


 
  Hello, if you already have the Essence STX, why are you not just using it with the Q701?
  If you plugged the O2 into the Essence STX's RCA outputs, you would only be 2-channel stereo audio (zero surround sound).
  Maybe try adding some AD797BR op-amps to the STX.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





cfgamescape said:


> Awesome, thank you!  So, does this mean the amplification provided by the X-Fi HD is not sufficient (e.g. for cans like the Q701)?
> 
> I'm currently running a Xonar STX + PC360 (w/ UNi drivers).  Would adding this O2 benefit me?
> 
> Regardless, the X-Fi HD + O2 + Q701 will be part of my next PC build.


 
   
  The X-Fi Titanium HD doesn't have a headphone amp IC like the Essence STX does (which, IIRC, is the same IC used in the FiiO E9), that much is certain.
   
  It's not much of a hindrance to a Stax/electrostatic user like myself where a specialized amp is required anyway, but demanding dynamics and orthos might want the insurance of a decent amp like the Objective2. Some might even say it's better than the Essence STX's amp.
   
  Then again, amplifiers aren't something I really like to dabble into. I just see them as a means to the end of making headphones work.


----------



## CFGamescape

purpleangel said:


> Hello, if you already have the Essence STX, why are you not just using it with the Q701?
> If you plugged the O2 into the Essence STX's RCA outputs, you would only be 2-channel stereo audio (zero surround sound).
> Maybe try adding some AD797BR op-amps to the STX.




I am considering adding the Q701 to my current setup. I was just curious why the X-Fi HD + O2 was recommended as I never saw the STX + O2 recommended.


----------



## CFGamescape

namelesspfg said:


> The X-Fi Titanium HD doesn't have a headphone amp IC like the Essence STX does (which, IIRC, is the same IC used in the FiiO E9), that much is certain.
> 
> It's not much of a hindrance to a Stax/electrostatic user like myself where a specialized amp is required anyway, but demanding dynamics and orthos might want the insurance of a decent amp like the Objective2. Some might even say it's better than the Essence STX's amp.
> 
> Then again, amplifiers aren't something I really like to dabble into. I just see them as a means to the end of making headphones work.




Great, succinct answer. Thanks for the education!


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





cfgamescape said:


> I am considering adding the Q701 to my current setup. I was just curious why the X-Fi HD + O2 was recommended as I never saw the STX + O2 recommended.


 
  The Essence STX comes with a true headphone amplifier and can drive headphones up to 600-Ohms.
  also the STX's headphone output jack has a 10-Ohm impedance.
   
  The Titanium HD does not come with a true headphone amplifier, but I know people that have used 250-Ohm headphone's plugged straight into the Titanium HD,
  also the Titanium HD's headphone output jack has a 35-Ohm impedance.
   
  It's recommended to use headphones have an impedance (Ohms) that is at least 8 times (or more) the impedance (Ohms) of whatever headphone jack the headphones are plugged into.
  The O2 (Objective 2) portable headphone amplifier (new, $155) has an impedance of around .5-Ohms, so works fine with headphones from 8-Ohms to 600-Ohms.
  The O2 functions like a normal desktop amplifier (24 X 7), just as long as you leave the AC adapter plugged in,
  without the AC adapter plugged in, it has about 10 hours of use before the 2 batteries are drained.


----------



## Luizp

hi, i need a recommendation of sound card with an optical input and dolby headphone technology, because i want to run the xbox 360 audio through my computer, retaining the audio effects (dolby headphones). is it possible?


----------



## Heretic817

Can I ask again..... Why exactly is it that the Z Series codec approach to simulated surround sound is inferior to the hardware supported option of say the Titanium HD?
  I mean a bit more specific than Harware = good, Software = bad. I mean I don't know much about how it's done in particular but I could see how having all of the processing done on a single die could be better if implemented correctly and with high enough clock speed, bandwidth, blah blah blah.
   
  Just wondering why everyone has shot the Z series in the face on day one when all the user reviews say "blows my old X-Fi Titanium out of the water...". Though I have not seen that statement made about the Titanium HD in particular.
   
  Anybody have two cents on this? Anyone at all?


----------



## ozarkcdn

Howdy - so... been messing around with my new xfi titanium hd trying to get the mic to work with the mic input and I must have missed my short yellow pci-e bus to work this morning... but is it really this difficult?? After getting the mic off of mute, it just plays back through the speaker inputs full time.  I tried googling and see posts from years ago but no real resolutions - luckily for me the motherboard mic input works ok still.  Did I miss something?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





luizp said:


> hi, i need a recommendation of sound card with an optical input and dolby headphone technology, because i want to run the xbox 360 audio through my computer, retaining the audio effects (dolby headphones). is it possible?


 
   
  People have tried to use computers as console surround processors before, and nobody's found a good, low-latency solution yet.
   
  Honestly, you're better off just plunking down the cash for a Mixamp.
   
   Quote:


heretic817 said:


> Can I ask again..... Why exactly is it that the Z Series codec approach to simulated surround sound is inferior to the hardware supported option of say the Titanium HD?
> I mean a bit more specific than Harware = good, Software = bad. I mean I don't know much about how it's done in particular but I could see how having all of the processing done on a single die could be better if implemented correctly and with high enough clock speed, bandwidth, blah blah blah.
> 
> Just wondering why everyone has shot the Z series in the face on day one when all the user reviews say "blows my old X-Fi Titanium out of the water...". Though I have not seen that statement made about the Titanium HD in particular.
> ...


 
   
  It's because Creative's software OpenAL renderer that they use for "fake" X-Fi devices (basically all the USB ones and the XtremeAudio cards), along with all SoundCore3D devices (Z-series cards included), has flaws compared to the hardware OpenAL renderer used in the true X-Fi cards.
   
  It was flawed enough to utterly refuse to let Thief 1/2 enable DirectSound3D hardware acceleration even with ALchemy set up properly, though they thankfully have native OpenAL support now. Battlefield 2 also sounds noticeably off if you try to max out the audio quality, X-Fi mode and everything, on an audio device that isn't a true X-Fi card with the EMU20k1/20k2. It lets you enable it without throwing out errors, but you notice that there's reverb on the menu sound effects that shouldn't be there, among other things.
   
  This isn't something you'd notice with more recent games that do all their mixing in software, of course.
   
  Also, there's a second matter with the Sound Core3D devices that I don't like as much, and it's THX TruStudio Surround. I think it just doesn't sound nearly as good for positional audio as CMSS-3D Headphone does, be it from the Titanium HD in Entertainment Mode or the Recon3D USB, even for games with software-mixed audio. Of course, that's just me and my ears speaking, and your experience may be different.
   
  Quote: 





ozarkcdn said:


> Howdy - so... been messing around with my new xfi titanium hd trying to get the mic to work with the mic input and I must have missed my short yellow pci-e bus to work this morning... but is it really this difficult?? After getting the mic off of mute, it just plays back through the speaker inputs full time.  I tried googling and see posts from years ago but no real resolutions - luckily for me the motherboard mic input works ok still.  Did I miss something?


 
   
  The first thing I'd check is the mixer. You have to mute the microphone under the "Playback" section of the mixer, while leaving it unmuted for the "Recording" section.
   
  The mic input on my Titanium HD works without issue, other than that it lacks a mic boost and thus should be used with more sensitive microphones.


----------



## Heretic817

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> People have tried to use computers as console surround processors before, and nobody's found a good, low-latency solution yet.
> 
> Honestly, you're better off just plunking down the cash for a Mixamp.
> 
> ...


 
  Thank you! Very helpful. Aww man.
  OK. So, here is my dilemma. Today I have:
   
  X-Fi Extreme Gamer > Q701
   
  I am currently thinking:
   
  X-Fi Extreme Gamer > Schiit Magni > Q701
   
  After that:
   
  ?Sound Card? > Schiit Magni > Q701
   
  Keep in mind I am a gamer on a budget here. Are there any good Sound Card options for upgrade in the sub $150 range over my X-Fi Extreme Gamer? I am so kicking myself for not picking up the Titanium HD while Amazon had it for $105. I am not prepared to shell out for a ASUS Xonar STX. Most important to me is some virtual surround sound technology for gaming be it CMSS-3D or Dolby Headphone or whatever. I may pick up a Schiit Modi later for music listening but as I don't have high quality FLAC's this is not currently a priority for me.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





heretic817 said:


> Thank you! Very helpful. Aww man.
> OK. So, here is my dilemma. Today I have:
> 
> X-Fi Extreme Gamer > Q701
> ...


 
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Creative-Sound-Blaster-X-Fi-Titanium-Fatal1ty-Professional-70SB088600002-/140899688527?pt=US_Sound_Cards_Internal_&hash=item20ce46a04f
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Creative-Sound-Blaster-X-Fi-Titanium-7-1-PCIe-x1-Sound-Card-70SB088000004-/300828551895?pt=US_Sound_Cards_Internal_&hash=item460ac76ad7
   
  Lots more used Creative Titanium (non-HD) sound cards for sale on eBay.


----------



## chewy4

So about the noise issues I was having before with the Titanium HD...
   
  The noise wasn't coming from the line out, it was coming from the microphone. No microphone was in, but when both microphone 1 and 2 are not muted in the mixer in creative console, some noise can be generated. I get no noise with 100% volume on the Asgard after they're muted.


----------



## ozarkcdn

Hey folks - you've all been so helpful... Is there a hidden guide to setup the xfi titanium HD? They seem none to quick on updating drivers and apps... So wanted to make sure I'm setting it up properly with win7. I saw the dd post with YouTube sample, so wasn't sure if I shouldset it up as headphones or 7.1The sample seemed to have better 3d imaging with 7.1 instead of headphones but I might be reading it wrong


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ozarkcdn said:


> Hey folks - you've all been so helpful... Is there a hidden guide to setup the xfi titanium HD? They seem none to quick on updating drivers and apps... So wanted to make sure I'm setting it up properly with win7. I saw the dd post with YouTube sample, so wasn't sure if I shouldset it up as headphones or 7.1The sample seemed to have better 3d imaging with 7.1 instead of headphones but I might be reading it wrong


 
   
  After reading up on the quirks that take people by surprise and I just correct instinctively without really thinking about them (most notably the "mic plays back through output by default" issue), I probably should write a guide on how to set up X-Fi cards, starting with driver installation.
   
  For the Titanium HD, I put together a nice little driver pack. It has an updated ALchemy version from the stock Creative drivers, among a few other components. There's a text file with instructions to install the various components in the proper order. So far, it's serving me well.
   
  Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> So about the noise issues I was having before with the Titanium HD...
> 
> The noise wasn't coming from the line out, it was coming from the microphone. No microphone was in, but when both microphone 1 and 2 are not muted in the mixer in creative console, some noise can be generated. I get no noise with 100% volume on the Asgard after they're muted.


 
   
  I'm glad to hear that. I knew something was off when I could only hear noise when cranking everything to unsafe listening levels, but had forgotten about the whole "mic defaults to unmuted in the playback mixer" issue that I instinctively correct with every X-Fi driver install.


----------



## Heretic817

Aww. Screw it. I am going to buy the Creative Z SBX today. I need to replace my X-Fi Extreme Gamer. Reviews are overwhelmingly positive and my Q701's need amping.* The on board amp says it will do 80mW into 600 ohms which is on par with FiiO E9. Is that even possible?? Anyone see any reason that won't do a good enough job of driving my Q701's????*
   
  I know a lot of people got burned by the Recon 3D but that seems to be a reoccurring theme in the reviews about the Z series that Creative finally got it right and the implementation of the Core3D is a marked improvement over the Recon. Including improvements over previous executions of CMSS-3D. I will give it a day in court and share my results.
   
  Previously stated:
  "This isn't something you'd notice with more recent games that do all their mixing in software, of course.
  
 Also, there's a second matter with the Sound Core3D devices that I don't like as much, and it's THX TruStudio Surround. I think it just doesn't sound nearly as good for positional audio as CMSS-3D Headphone does, be it from the Titanium HD in Entertainment Mode or the Recon3D USB, even for games with software-mixed audio. Of course, that's just me and my ears speaking, and your experience may be different."


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





heretic817 said:


> Aww. Screw it. I am going to buy the Creative Z SBX today. I need to replace my X-Fi Extreme Gamer. Reviews are overwhelmingly positive and my Q701's need amping.* The on board amp says it will do 80mW into 600 ohms which is on par with FiiO E9. Is that even possible?? Anyone see any reason that won't do a good enough job of driving my Q701's????*


 
  You might try asking on this thread about general questions about amping the Q701 and using the Creative Z SBX for use with the Q701s.
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/582276/q701-appreciation-thread


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





heretic817 said:


> Aww. Screw it. I am going to buy the Creative Z SBX today. I need to replace my X-Fi Extreme Gamer. Reviews are overwhelmingly positive and my Q701's need amping.* The on board amp says it will do 80mW into 600 ohms which is on par with FiiO E9. Is that even possible?? Anyone see any reason that won't do a good enough job of driving my Q701's????*
> 
> I know a lot of people got burned by the Recon 3D but that seems to be a reoccurring theme in the reviews about the Z series that Creative finally got it right and the implementation of the Core3D is a marked improvement over the Recon. Including improvements over previous executions of CMSS-3D. I will give it a day in court and share my results.


 
   
  If you're willing to take the plunge, I'm looking forward to any reviews. Just note that I do place higher priority on classic games, so do test with stuff like Thief 1/2 (patched with TFix and Tafferpatcher, respectively, so you're not pulling your hair out when you can't get hardware sound acceleration to turn on without native OpenAL support), Unreal Tournament (with the Old Unreal multimedia patch that adds OpenAL support), Battlefield 1942 (it's freeware on Origin!), and other titles from that timeframe up to 2005 or so.
   
  Also, I'm not surprised by the headphone amp specs. The FiiO E9 and Xonar Essence ST(X) use the same headphone amp chip, and I won't be surprised if Creative also adopted it for this new card.


----------



## Th3Beh0ldeR

Hello guys. I have been reading the forum for a couple of days now and now i need your help buying new *headphones/set for gaming (*sometimes compatitive*) and movies* from time to time.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I currently have the *Auzentech Prelude*(with no extra amps) and the *Razer Mako* speakers(Connected in front out with CMSS 3-D Virtual enabled in game mode)
  I am thinking of buying the *Q-701* or the *PC360*.
  Will i need an amp with either of those? If yes, i'm considering the *O2* amp.
  Connection will look something like: *Headphones>Amp>Soundcard ?* In that case will i be able to have both the speakers and the headphones connected at the same time and choosing each time from where i want to reproduce sound?
  Is it a plus getting a mixamp over a simple amp like O2 in terms of sound quality and positioning?
  Thats a lot of questions i know, but i need to be sure before buying anything.
  Thanks in advance guys. I hope u wont tell me to also change soundcard.


----------



## Heretic817

Mixamp for console sound card better option for pc. Q701 amp definitely PC360 no need. Sorry typed from cell but that's about the size of it. PC360 is widely considered best headset all around. Get the the Q701 or something like it if you are prepared to lay down some scratch. Better sound card amp etc. Or if you have a good soundcard and dont need console support just get PC 360 skip the mixamp and rest assured you have a very nice headset


----------



## roguegeek

Quoted this from the other thread to make sure the conversation continued here...
   
  Quote:


namelesspfg said:


> I see you didn't ask this in my own PC gaming audio thread, which ruuku has conveniently linked above. Still, I'll answer here.
> 
> The Xonar cards and other C-Media chipset offerings like from HT Omega are good choices, so long as you've made sure the card in question has Dolby Headphone.
> 
> I just place higher priority on X-Fi-based cards since I still play a fair share of older games that relied on hardware sound acceleration from specific sound card DSPs to sound their best, for which X-Fi cards have the best compatibility. That's why I usually recommend the X-Fi Titanium HD by default.


 
  Thanks for the response. So it sounds like Dolby Headphone is the most important thing to make sure it has. Is a headphone amp just as important?


----------



## obazavil

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> After reading up on the quirks that take people by surprise and I just correct instinctively without really thinking about them (most notably the "mic plays back through output by default" issue), I probably should write a guide on how to set up X-Fi cards, starting with driver installation.


 
   
  Hi!
   
  A Guide about installation and settings of x-fi HD would be great. Sometimes small details make a huge difference, and at least me, i'm pretty new to this soundcard stuff.
   
  Waiting for that guide


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





th3beh0lder said:


> Hello guys. I have been reading the forum for a couple of days now and now i need your help buying new *headphones/set for gaming (*sometimes compatitive*) and movies* from time to time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  The X-Fi Prelude's still one of the better sound cards around, actually. The only reason I replaced my Prelude in my primary gaming PC with the Forte (which was then traded for a Titanium HD) was specifically to move the Prelude to a retrogaming build.
   
  The Prelude doesn't forcibly mute the rear output if something's plugged into the front-panel audio jacks like the Titanium HD, but since there isn't a dedicated headphone jack on the rear and most computer cases have ground loop problems with the front-panel audio output, I'd suggest getting a 3.5mm TRS splitter for the rear output, or a switch if you don't need them to output simultaneously for any reason.
   
  Then, all you have to do is switch the speaker setting in the X-Fi control panel according to what you're using at the moment so that you're getting the right form of CMSS-3D.
   
  Quote: 





roguegeek said:


> Thanks for the response. So it sounds like Dolby Headphone is the most important thing to make sure it has. Is a headphone amp just as important?


 
   
  Pretty much, with the exception of X-Fi cards that have CMSS-3D Headphone in its place, which I find to work equally well at virtual 5.1/7.1 (for software-mixed games) or even better (for DS3D and OAL games with hardware sound acceleration, which are mostly older titles with the occasional new one).
   
  I don't place much priority on built-in headphone amps because as someone who's gone Stax/electrostatic, they're all useless to me anyway. Besides, I'd rather match the amp to the headphones than the other way around.
   
  That said, some people do find value in built-in headphone amps, most of which use the same IC as the FiiO E9. That'll give you an idea of what to expect regarding amp performance and how much you might save if you were planning to buy an amp on the level of the E9 with your sound card.


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> People have tried to use computers as console surround processors before, and nobody's found a good, low-latency solution yet.
> 
> Honestly, you're better off just plunking down the cash for a Mixamp.
> *[To others:
> ...




NamelessPFG,
This description makes so much more sense. Thank you! I'll have to give Battlefield 1942 a try, honestly I cut my teeth in FPS gaming on WWII guns. Another thing, the depth and evenly "circular" soundstage improved and became realistic once I double amped my Q701 with a more powerful tube amp (with a Sylvania tube, which is a bit bass light but in every other way makes for an AD700 on steroids experience!), but I assume you used your recon with the receiver and STAX anyway, right?

I am also curious about the new Z-series cards, they look like Creative took what Asus was doing right (hardware spec-wise) and added Creative's tech. Though native X-Fi support would've been good. Has the ZxR even been released yet? Creative's website really has a lot of gaps.

It has begun to bother me how noticeably "flat" the 2D surround from the Xbox is... And I haven't really even experienced "true" binaural 3D spacial surround in gaming yet!

Where is Roller? Though, it is kinda good to have you as the main voice of the thread again. Hope you had a merry Christmas!


----------



## Th3Beh0ldeR

Let me thank everyone for your help.
  So i can keep my prelude if i use pc360 or q701. If i choose the Q-701's(most likely) that need an external Amp, wont be a problem connecting it on my Front output? Generally is there a problem having an amp(prelude) leading to an amp(external)?


----------



## Sleinzel

I asked already in MLE's thread, but gonna ask here again to get another opinion:
   
   
   
  Me and some mates just started to play CS:GO a little bit more competitive (training/matches each day). I own a pair of Creative Fatal1ty Headphones and they surved their purpose well over the last 3 years. 
   
   
  Now I'm looking on buying a new pair of heaphones. I listened to Beyerdynamics DT 880 and 990, but in my opinion, they have too much treble to create an illusion of clearity...
   
   
  So my final candidates are the 
   
   
  - HD 598
  - HD 650
   
  With an Asus Xonar Essence STX soundcard (for DH and as an amp for the HD 650).
   
  I would say 50% of my time goes into gaming, and 50% into critical listening.
   
  I'm currently leaning more towards the HD 650, because I think I like the warm and darker sound of the HD 650 more. 
   
  Anyone could help me out in my decision?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> This description makes so much more sense. Thank you! I'll have to give Battlefield 1942 a try, honestly I cut my teeth in FPS gaming on WWII guns. Another thing, the depth and evenly "circular" soundstage improved and became realistic once I double amped my Q701 with a more powerful tube amp (with a Sylvania tube, which is a bit bass light but in every other way makes for an AD700 on steroids experience!), but I assume you used your recon with the receiver and STAX anyway, right?
> I am also curious about the new Z-series cards, they look like Creative took what Asus was doing right (hardware spec-wise) and added Creative's tech. Though native X-Fi support would've been good. Has the ZxR even been released yet? Creative's website really has a lot of gaps.
> It has begun to bother me how noticeably "flat" the 2D surround from the Xbox is... And I haven't really even experienced "true" binaural 3D spacial surround in gaming yet!
> Where is Roller? Though, it is kinda good to have you as the main voice of the thread again. Hope you had a merry Christmas!


 
   
  I tested the Recon3D USB on my desktop running through my Stax system. There are noticeable differences in the presentation between THX TruStudio Surround and CMSS-3D Headphone in OpenAL-native games (did the bulk of my testing with Unreal Tournament and Battlefield 2) which I find to be a regression overall, but having the former's still better than just plain stereo.
   
  If you don't mind setting up an EA/Origin account, by all means, get BF1942. I still consider it one of the best entries in the series overall, along with BF2, and it's old enough that even computers with integrated graphics could run it decently (assuming we're talking GMA 4500MHD or better). Just make sure you set up ALchemy with it, as it uses DS3D.
   
  I had a pretty good Christmas, thanks. Not a whole lot under the tree compared to past years, but I still got some nice stuff and some time with the family.


----------



## roguegeek

Quoted this from the other thread to make sure the conversation continued here...
   
  Quote:


namelesspfg said:


> I just place higher priority on X-Fi-based cards since I still play a fair share of older games that relied on hardware sound acceleration from specific sound card DSPs to sound their best, for which X-Fi cards have the best compatibility. That's why I usually recommend the X-Fi Titanium HD by default.


 
  Alright, I'm slowly getting this. I'm not too concerned with older games at all. Knowing that it's going to be paired with either the Audio Technica ATH-AD700 or Sennheiser PC360 for competitive play, what Xonar equivalent would you recommend? Also, could you recommend more cost effective solutions (<$100) from Creative and Asus?


----------



## Evshrug

Roguegeek,
I wouldn't count out X-Fi just because it's main differentiation is a little dated, it's entirely possible you would subjectively prefer CMSS-3D over DH or TruStudio, and the main objective difference FWIR with cheaper sound cards is cost, amping, S:R ratio, and... maybe some things I haven't thought of, lmao. Among Asus, PurpleAngel suggested the Xonar DS (or was it DX? *[Edit: NEITHER! If you just use headphones, especially the easy-to-amp AD700, the most logical value choice of the Xonar sound cards is the DG]*), but if you can find a cheaper refurbished Creative Titanium (the model without the HD moniker), then that would also be a great choice that would also as a bonus allow full compatibility with games featuring some of the greatest sound design ever. If you're in the US (I forget), Newegg frequently puts them on sale (they just had a sale and sold out, but they'll get more). If they're about the same price, the Titanium probably gets the edge over the DG.

I loved/love my AD700, IMO still is that you don't actually get more competitive than that (I also give it props for comfort), I only upgraded to improve the musical dynamics.



namelesspfg said:


> I tested the Recon3D USB on my desktop running through my Stax system. There are noticeable differences in the presentation between THX TruStudio Surround and CMSS-3D Headphone in OpenAL-native games (did the bulk of my testing with Unreal Tournament and Battlefield 2) which I find to be a regression overall, but having the former's still better than just plain stereo.
> 
> If you don't mind setting up an EA/Origin account, by all means, get BF1942. I still consider it one of the best entries in the series overall, along with BF2, and it's old enough that even computers with integrated graphics could run it decently (assuming we're talking GMA 4500MHD or better). Just make sure you set up ALchemy with it, as it uses DS3D.
> 
> I had a pretty good Christmas, thanks. Not a whole lot under the tree compared to past years, but I still got some nice stuff and some time with the family.




As much as I mind EA, I already have an origin account set up from Star Wars: the Old Republic. Which was actually a fun game, ran well enough on my GTS 250 GPU, but I think MMO's in general are too much of a time commitment if you want to play with the same friends. I noticed the GTX 460 (SE?) was on sale at Newegg for like $63... But I'm still holding out to upgrade till I can afford a GTX 660 which I'll kit out with aftermarket cooling  Meanwhile BF1942 sounds like loads of fun, I'll let you know when I set it up if you feel like joining sometime  It will be a good test to figure out how to set up ALchemy. I expect to pick up Thief and Baulder's Gate Enhanced Edition soon 

Glad you still enjoyed your holiday! Mine seemed... shorter lived than childhood Christmases, but I still had a ton of fun and surprised my mom by giving a bunch of small but cheerful gifts when she thought she wasn't getting anything. A different kind of magic now that I'm older, but still "magic."


----------



## Heretic817

I still use an xfi extreme gamer and though I can't complain I still want to get a newer card. This one has been with me from windows xp xp64 vista and now 7 without issue. So I find all the creative hate a bit curious. Maybe they screwed the pooch with recon but so did MS with vista. Anyways cmss and dolby headphone do sound noticeably different so there is that to consider. As for me I need amping for my Q701 both on PC and PS3 and less so for mp3 player so I am in a bind. I cant decide what to do first. FiiO E10,E9, Titanium HD or Z series, get an O2 or wait for the ODA or get a Magni now. My head wants to split open. I should just give up gaming. Nawww.


----------



## roguegeek

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Roguegeek,
> I wouldn't count out X-Fi just because it's main differentiation is a little dated, it's entirely possible you would subjectively prefer CMSS-3D over DH or TruStudio, and the main objective difference FWIR with cheaper sound cards is cost, amping, S:R ratio, and... maybe some things I haven't thought of, lmao. Among Asus, PurpleAngel suggested the Xonar DS (or was it DX?), but if you can find a cheaper refurbished Creative Titanium (the model without the HD moniker), then that would also be a great choice that would also as a bonus allow full compatibility with games featuring some of the greatest sound design ever. If you're in the US (I forget), Newegg frequently puts them on sale (they just had a sale and sold out, but they'll get more).
> I loved/love my AD700, IMO still is that you don't actually get more competitive than that (I also give it props for comfort), I only upgraded to improve the musical dynamics.


 
   
  I'm not so much counting them out as much as I'm just trying to understand differences I think. My goal is to get the best directional sound for competitive I can at a reasonable cost. I'm really happy to see how everyone is loving the AD700 for that purpose. Now I just want to get a card that will fulfill the other part of the equation. If you guys are saying the (what I consider to be) premium for the X-Fi Titanium HD is worth it, then that's that. I'd just like to see what the other options out there are and what I compromise using them.


----------



## roguegeek

My trigger finger became too twitchy when I saw the Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD card for only $99 at J&R. Already purchased it. Hope I made the right decision. Someone please say something that wont give me buyer's remorse!!!


----------



## genclaymore

You made a good choice, it is a good card and you should enjoy it.


----------



## Evshrug

Nice! Dayyymn, I am wishing I could take advantage of that deal too!


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roguegeek said:


> My trigger finger became too twitchy when I saw the Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD card for only $99 at J&R. Already purchased it. Hope I made the right decision. Someone please say something that wont give me buyer's remorse!!!


 
   
  Nice. Everyone should get in on that deal while it lasts!
   
  Guess that's more reason to get the X-Fi setup guide finished soon; you'll probably want it the instant it shows up on your doorstep.


----------



## roguegeek

Thanks for the reenforcement, everyone. That card wasn't even on my radar when I started my research and this thread has been super helpful in getting me where I want to be. I can't wait to pair it with the AD700!


----------



## element72

I just got the xonar U3. I'm not sure what settings ppl play for the best positional cues. Let me know what to tryout or what's best for you on dolby headphone. I have audio channel set to 8 (recommended by Asus for 3D games), gaming mode set (this enables dolby headphone and DH-2; there is also option DH-1 and DH-3). 
  
 Again the settings I'm using are audio channel 8, gaming mode preset, and "headphone" in game. I'm currently playing left 4 dead 2. I just wish someone would tell me how they set up their sound for dolby headphone.
  
 Edit: It seems you get more distinct positional cues with 7.1 virtual speaker shifter checked, so I'll keep that always checked from now on. I'm comparing DH to CMSS-3D by using Xonar U3 and Titanium HD. Xonar U3 is more distinct in positional sound. From testing with the Titanium HD I can't really distinguish what's in front of me or behind me. Also note that I'm testing by using the RightMark 3DSound Positional Accuracy test. Please let me know if I'm doing anything wrong or tell me what I should try out.


----------



## element72

I recently discovered this thread. If I were to use a desktop amp such as the magni or fiio e9k, then is the section, "*Method for using sound card as DSP to output to any audio device," *exactly what I should follow if I were to use the optical out on my titanium HD?


----------



## Fa11ou7

I have a Turtle Beach PX5 that I picked up to use with my Xbox/PC and overall it works great but occasionally I get a pop in the audio when listening on my PC. I don't have an audio card I'm just using the optical out from my onboard sound (Realteck ALC892). I'll run it on my Xbox for a few hours to see if I get the same pop but do you guys have any ideas? I'm using the 3.5mm audio out to my Koss DJ100 or KSC75.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





element72 said:


> I just got the xonar U3. I'm not sure what settings ppl play for the best positional cues. Let me know what to tryout or what's best for you on dolby headphone. I have audio channel set to 8 (recommended by Asus for 3D games), gaming mode set (this enables dolby headphone and DH-2; there is also option DH-1 and DH-3).
> 
> Again the settings I'm using are audio channel 8, gaming mode preset, and "headphone" in game. I'm currently playing left 4 dead 2. I just wish someone would tell me how they set up their sound for dolby headphone.
> 
> Edit: It seems you get more distinct positional cues with 7.1 virtual speaker shifter checked, so I'll keep that always checked from now on. I'm comparing DH to CMSS-3D by using Xonar U3 and Titanium HD. Xonar U3 is more distinct in positional sound. From testing with the Titanium HD I can't really distinguish what's in front of me or behind me. Also note that I'm testing by using the RightMark 3DSound Positional Accuracy test. Please let me know if I'm doing anything wrong or tell me what I should try out.


 
   
  The first thing I'd try with the Titanium HD is to make sure it's running in Game Mode and that it's set to Headphones. That ensures you get CMSS-3D Headphone at its best. (You may also want to go in and set CMSS-3D Headphone's Elevation Filter to "On". MacroFX can be set to taste; it makes close sounds louder in volume, but this can result in having to turn the overall volume down and risk not hearing distant sounds because your own gunfire and other close sounds are uncomfortably loud.)
   
  Also, the RightMark 3DSound Positional Accuracy test uses DirectSound3D, so you must set up ALchemy for it to work correctly. In practice, this amounts to copying the ALchemy dsound.dll and a dsound.ini file with a few configuration settings to the same directory as the game/app's executable. Word is that the Xonar DS3DGX approach has its wrapper somewhere in the Windows System folder, so you don't need to set it up on a per-game/app basis, but some people don't find it to work as well as ALchemy + hardware X-Fi. (I'll leave that judgment to you.)
   
  Quote: 





element72 said:


> I recently discovered this thread. If I were to use a desktop amp such as the magni or fiio e9k, then is the section, "*Method for using sound card as DSP to output to any audio device," *exactly what I should follow if I were to use the optical out on my titanium HD?


 
   
  For the optical S/PDIF output, you don't need to follow those instructions at all, because that section's instructions are meant for USB DACs.
   
  Instead, all you need to do is go into the X-Fi's settings under the Console Launcher or Audio Control Panel and check "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output", then connect the optical cable to your DAC. Nice, simple, and you don't impair audio quality significantly.


----------



## Heretic817

Just wanted to share my excitement. I just ordered all of the components including some upgrades from Mouser to build my own Objective 2 Amp.
  I also ordered the chassis, front plate, knob, and PCB from JDS Labs. All done shipping and all for about $80!!


----------



## Evshrug

Nameless,
MacroFX sounds like what Creative was trying to do with Scout Mode on the Recon3D. I don't think Scout Mode is nearly as effective since the card receives zero positional data (well... at least when connected to the Xbox via Optical, I haven't used Scout Mode on PC), I just use Scout Mode when my ears are tired and I want to play at low volume whilst not missing the more subtle cues. For those that don't know, my theory about Scout mode is just that it compresses most sounds to play at ~ the same dB volume level, which hurts positional accuracy and "naturalness," but I can get used to it and still be competitive.

Does Creative give the user instructions on how to configure ALchemy? Having not yet tried, I would have no idea what "few configuration settings" would be set for, or what format they would be in (in game settings? .ini file edits?). I'm sure I'll find out some day though. Does Borderlands 2 have some kind of 3D audio support?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Nameless,
> MacroFX sounds like what Creative was trying to do with Scout Mode on the Recon3D. I don't think Scout Mode is nearly as effective since the card receives zero positional data (well... at least when connected to the Xbox via Optical, I haven't used Scout Mode on PC), I just use Scout Mode when my ears are tired and I want to play at low volume whilst not missing the more subtle cues. For those that don't know, my theory about Scout mode is just that it compresses most sounds to play at ~ the same dB volume level, which hurts positional accuracy and "naturalness," but I can get used to it and still be competitive.
> Does Creative give the user instructions on how to configure ALchemy? Having not yet tried, I would have no idea what "few configuration settings" would be set for, or what format they would be in (in game settings? .ini file edits?). I'm sure I'll find out some day though. Does Borderlands 2 have some kind of 3D audio support?


 
   
  I always thought Scout Mode was an EQ effect meant to emphasize important sounds, but on the Recon3D USB, it suffers from not being able to function in tandem with THX TruStudio Surround.
   
Creative actually does give instructions on how to set up ALchemy. Just edited that guide to include it in the links section.
   
Borderlands 2 actually does have OpenAL support, but it's hidden. This seems to be because it's using an audio middleware that isn't FMOD Ex, by contrast to the first Borderlands and most other UnrealEngine3 games. It defaults to XAudio2, but if you don't mind editing the WillowEngine.ini file a bit, you can enable OpenAL mode. Note that I haven't really tested the audio yet, just because I have yet to get a group of friends together for some co-op.


----------



## element72

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Also, the RightMark 3DSound Positional Accuracy test uses DirectSound3D, so you must set up ALchemy for it to work correctly. In practice, this amounts to copying the ALchemy dsound.dll and a dsound.ini file with a few configuration settings to the same directory as the game/app's executable. Word is that the Xonar DS3DGX approach has its wrapper somewhere in the Windows System folder, so you don't need to set it up on a per-game/app basis, but some people don't find it to work as well as ALchemy + hardware X-Fi. (I'll leave that judgment to you.)


 
  Took me all day yesterday trying to figure out how to install and use ALchemy. The only way I could successfully install it was using the cd that came with my titanium HD. The latest version came out 2 months ago i think. I can't install that because I keep getting that weird error that supported device is not detected.
   
  What settings should I use for ALchemy when trying out the RightMark 3DSound Positional Accuracy test?


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> I always thought Scout Mode was an EQ effect meant to emphasize important sounds, but on the Recon3D USB, it suffers from not being able to function in tandem with THX TruStudio Surround.
> 
> Creative actually does give instructions on how to set up ALchemy. Just edited that guide to include it in the links section.
> 
> Borderlands 2 actually does have OpenAL support, but it's hidden. This seems to be because it's using an audio middleware that isn't FMOD Ex, by contrast to the first Borderlands and most other UnrealEngine3 games. It defaults to XAudio2, but if you don't mind editing the WillowEngine.ini file a bit, you can enable OpenAL mode. Note that I haven't really tested the audio yet, just because I have yet to get a group of friends together for some co-op.




I'm bookmarking this post. I don't mind editing code, as long as I know what I'm doing beforehand 
I'm not sure if I'm getting Borderlands 2 for Windows or Xbox yet, I want the technical prowess possible in the PC version, but most of my gamer friends only play on Xbox and can't keep a PC working to save their lives  I do have one friend with a decent PC and a few windows games, if I decide to go that route (or if you want to talk me into it) I'll be sure to let you know. Good to know a very recent game has OpenAL, even if it is a bit hidden!


----------



## Fa11ou7

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I'm bookmarking this post. I don't mind editing code, as long as I know what I'm doing beforehand
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Check this Youtube video out and let that help you decide which platform you would rather play on. I was able to get it for both platforms but my wife wanted to play with me and she wanted a controller and the TV so we ended up playing it through twice on the Xbox. It sure is beautiful on the PC though, and if your worried about your PC specs, don't. My GPU is an ancient Radeon 5770 and even with PhysX (which is supposed to be Nvidia only, but can be made to work with Radeon) turned on to medium it ran fine.  
   
  Edit: I should point out that the video is PC with and without PhysX so not exactly platform comparison but PhysX is only available on PC so that shows you what is possible on a PC and the without clips are essentially what you would get on a console except maybe not even that visually impressive.


----------



## Evshrug

Fa110u7,
Thanks for the video. Interestingly, there was also a link to a newegg video showing Borderlands 2 running on a GTX 660 vs a 9800GT... I have a GTS250 now, which basically is a 9800GT, and the GTX 660 was the card I was thinking of buying. Graphics, sound, game cost: these all favor PC. BL2 would be a great showcase for current-gen graphics.

However, the bigger sell point is playing with friends. Adding the "other human" element makes borderlands more fun than those other plus points. Lets face it: singleplayer gaming gets lonely. I can't make my friend get gaming PCs. Hopefully, it becomes an option.


----------



## preisner

Hey, guys! I'm thinking of buying a Xonar DG so I can get the Dolby Headphones option. I currently own a FiiO E7 DAC. Is there a way to connect the two devices so I get the best sound quality? Also, my main intent with the sound card is to get surround sound while watching movies and gaming, I know that gaming improves a lot with positional audio, but what about movies? Is the difference noticeable? Thanks!


----------



## crzycuyler

I am almost certainly purchasing both the Polk Audio RTi A1 speakers and the Audio Technica W1000X for my computer audio setup. I will be using my computer for gaming and music. Other than the better amp in the Xonar STX, does it have any benefits over the Titanium HD? If not, I am wanting to pull the trigger on the Creative card. If I go with the Titanium HD, I will be using an old RCA receiver I found at my parent's house as my headphone amplifier. Is this a good idea?
   
  Titanium HD analog out -> RCA Receiver analog in -> Built in 1/4 inch headphone amp -> Audio Technica W1000X (possibly Sennheiser HD700)       and obviously RTiA1 from the speaker amplifiers in the receiver
   
  If I went with the STX I would still need a speaker amplifier, anyway. So this makes sense, right?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





preisner said:


> Hey, guys! I'm thinking of buying a Xonar DG so I can get the Dolby Headphones option. I currently own a FiiO E7 DAC. Is there a way to connect the two devices so I get the best sound quality? Also, my main intent with the sound card is to get surround sound while watching movies and gaming, I know that gaming improves a lot with positional audio, but what about movies? Is the difference noticeable? Thanks!


 
  You may not need to use the E7 with the Xonar DG, as the Xonar DG should be fine by itself.
  But yes, you could daisy chain the Xonar DG's line-out/headphone jack with the line-in on the E7.
   
  At this site is a few free programs for playing video files.
  http://codecguide.com/
   
  For playing Blu-ray movies, get Cyberlink PowerDVD 11 ($31?), off eBay.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> I am almost certainly purchasing both the Polk Audio RTi A1 speakers and the Audio Technica W1000X for my computer audio setup. I will be using my computer for gaming and music. Other than the better amp in the Xonar STX, does it have any benefits over the Titanium HD? If not, I am wanting to pull the trigger on the Creative card. If I go with the Titanium HD, I will be using an old RCA receiver I found at my parent's house as my headphone amplifier. Is this a good idea?
> Titanium HD analog out -> RCA Receiver analog in -> Built in 1/4 inch headphone amp -> Audio Technica W1000X (possibly Sennheiser HD700) and obviously RTiA1 from the speaker amplifiers in the receiver
> If I went with the STX I would still need a speaker amplifier, anyway. So this makes sense, right?


 
  As the Audio Technica W1000X is only 42-Ohms, using a receiver to drive the W1000X is not really a good choice, as receivers usually have come with a headphone output with a high impedance 
  The Titanium HD, combied with an external headphone amplifier, like the O2 (Objective 2, which comes with a very low impedance) would be a good setup for gaming (& music) and audio quality.


----------



## preisner

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> You may not need to use the E7 with the Xonar DG, as the Xonar DG should be fine by itself.
> But yes, you could daisy chain the Xonar DG's line-out/headphone jack with the line-in on the E7.
> 
> At this site is a few free programs for playing video files.
> ...


 
   
  Do you mean I don't need the sound board to watch movies with surround sound? Can it be done just by the video software?
  Thanks for the answers!
   
  EDIT: Nevermind, I found some guides on how to use surround sound with PowerDVD. But I think I will buy the Xonar DG, since it's the same price as PowerDVD and I will have surround sound in gaming. Thanks again!


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





preisner said:


> Do you mean I don't need the sound board to watch movies with surround sound? Can it be done just by the video software?
> Thanks for the answers!


 
  The PowerDVD is needed to play Blu-ray movies and will work fine with speakers, but I'm not sure if PowerDVD can process headphone surround sound?
  So the $25 Xonar DG is still need.


----------



## element72

Should I use daniel_k's unofficial drivers for my Titanium HD?


----------



## preisner

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> The PowerDVD is needed to play Blu-ray movies and will work fine with speakers, but I'm not sure if PowerDVD can process headphone surround sound?
> So the $25 Xonar DG is still need.


 
   
  I see. So, last question! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Here where I live the Xonar DG and the Xonar U3 are in the same price range. Which one is better?


----------



## genclaymore

The Xonar DG would be better then the Xonar U3, the Xonar U3 is really portable for laptops.


----------



## element72

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> The Xonar DG would be better then the Xonar U3, the Xonar U3 is really portable for laptops.


 
  They're not that different are they? My friend asked me that same question last night. I told him go for the U3 because its portable.


----------



## Evshrug

crzycuyler said:


> I am almost certainly purchasing both the Polk Audio RTi A1 speakers and the Audio Technica W1000X for my computer audio setup. I will be using my computer for gaming and music. Other than the better amp in the Xonar STX, does it have any benefits over the Titanium HD? If not, I am wanting to pull the trigger on the Creative card. If I go with the Titanium HD, I will be using an old RCA receiver I found at my parent's house as my headphone amplifier. Is this a good idea?
> 
> Titanium HD analog out -> RCA Receiver analog in -> Built in 1/4 inch headphone amp -> Audio Technica W1000X (possibly Sennheiser HD700) and obviously RTiA1 from the speaker amplifiers in the receiver
> 
> If I went with the STX I would still need a speaker amplifier, anyway. So this makes sense, right?




So, you finally decided on the W1000x, eh?




element72 said:


> They're not that different are they? My friend asked me that same question last night. I told him go for the U3 because its portable.




The difference is in the amping. Power, output impedance, signal-to-noise-ratio (IMO it should be written S:N, that's the scientific and mathematical way to write a ratio, but OOOH NO, we gotta listen to the marketing people, yes...), and maybe some software features. Some souncards include PowerDVD, do either of those include it? I just use the DVD player bundled with my Mac OS


----------



## Th3Beh0ldeR

Quote: 





th3beh0lder said:


> Let me thank everyone for your help.
> So i can keep my prelude if i use pc360 or q701. If i choose the Q-701's(most likely) that need an external Amp, wont be a problem connecting it on my Front output? Generally is there a problem having an amp(prelude) leading to an amp(external)?


 
  Sry for bumping but since i didnt get an answer i believe that it wont be any problem regarding amp on prelude.
  I have finally decided to buy *K-701* since Q-701 dont seem to worth the extra 100e just for gaming and some movies.
  I am also going to use O2 Headphone Amp to drive the headphones all that connected to my prelude. I was thinking about the Fiio E9K but i cant find it in any logical price in europe. I am also going to give a try to this mic, its very cheap and has some good ratings.
  Any hints are welcome


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





crzycuyler said:


> I am almost certainly purchasing both the Polk Audio RTi A1 speakers and the Audio Technica W1000X for my computer audio setup. I will be using my computer for gaming and music. Other than the better amp in the Xonar STX, does it have any benefits over the Titanium HD? If not, I am wanting to pull the trigger on the Creative card. If I go with the Titanium HD, I will be using an old RCA receiver I found at my parent's house as my headphone amplifier. Is this a good idea?
> 
> Titanium HD analog out -> RCA Receiver analog in -> Built in 1/4 inch headphone amp -> Audio Technica W1000X (possibly Sennheiser HD700)       and obviously RTiA1 from the speaker amplifiers in the receiver
> 
> If I went with the STX I would still need a speaker amplifier, anyway. So this makes sense, right?


 
   
  The X-Fi Titanium HD does have this quirk where if anything's plugged into the front or rear headphone outputs, the RCA outputs are forcibly muted, with no option to change this in software. The Xonar Essence STX allegedly does not have this behavior, and that's won over some people as a result.
   
  Other than that and the amp, though, the X-Fi Titanium HD has the edge in gaming overall.
   
  Your proposed setup only needs the RCA outputs anyway and uses a receiver as an amp for both (quite similar to my setup, actually), so you could really just switch between headphone and speaker modes through the X-Fi control panel without having to unplug or replug anything, depending on how your receiver works.
   
  Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> The PowerDVD is needed to play Blu-ray movies and will work fine with speakers, but I'm not sure if PowerDVD can process headphone surround sound?
> So the $25 Xonar DG is still need.


 
   
  PowerDVD does Dolby Headphone in software, but only with the editions that they charge money for.
   
  That's why I don't make headphone surround support in the sound card a priority for movies, only for gaming.
   
  Quote: 





element72 said:


> Should I use daniel_k's unofficial drivers for my Titanium HD?


 
   
  Daniel_K's X-Fi Support Pack does NOT support the Titanium HD. It wouldn't work.
   
  Fortunately, Creative's really stepped up the driver stability on the Titanium HD, so I don't find it to be a necessity.
   
  There's a driver pack I put together that I linked near the bottom of the original post. Download that and install everything according to the included instructions.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> PowerDVD does Dolby Headphone in software, but only with the editions that they charge money for.
> That's why I don't make headphone surround support in the sound card a priority for movies, only for gaming.


 
  I guess I learned something today.


----------



## Evshrug

th3beh0lder said:


> Sry for bumping but since i didnt get an answer i believe that it wont be any problem regarding amp on prelude.
> I have finally decided to buy *K-701* since Q-701 dont seem to worth the extra 100e just for gaming and some movies.
> I am also going to use O2 Headphone Amp to drive the headphones all that connected to my prelude. I was thinking about the Fiio E9K but i cant find it in any logical price in europe. I am also going to give a try to this mic, its very cheap and has some good ratings.
> Any hints are welcome:wink_face:




Double-amping usually works out ok, I have the headphone-out port of my soundcard plugged into a tube amp, then my Q701s into that, and I don't get any hiss, scratching, or other noticeable distortions. Ideally I'd just use an analogue line-out signal from my soundcard to my amp, that's not an option for me but might be an option for you. Use the RCA jacks to connect to the amp, if your card has them.

FWIRead the O2 is a slightly better amp than the E9 anyway.


----------



## Fa11ou7

I have an old Kenwood receiver that I'm using for my home theater setup temporarily while my main Rotel receiver is being fixed. My plan is to use the Kenwood for my computer when I get my Rotel back. The Kenwood has a dedicated headphone out jack (1/4in) in the front and yesterday I plugged my Koss TBSE/DJ100 into it and was amazed at how much better they sounded amped. I'll probably have to play around with the setup to see if the amp is bypassed in some odd way using different input/outputs. The Kenwood doesn't have surround built in so I will have to use my TB PX5 unit at some point in the setup to get DH. My question is how do you think I should set up the receiver with my PC?
   
  My gear is;
  - Kenwood vr-509
  - Koss TBSE/DJ100
  - Koss KSC75
  - Onboard Sound with optical out (Realtek ALC892 Audio Codec)
  - Turtle Beach PX5 for DH
   
  The kenwood has optical out that I could run to the PX5 but I'm assuming that optical won't benefit from the amp so should I use RCA out to the PX5?


----------



## Evshrug

Well, the PX5 would be nicely amped that way, but the headphones wouldn't see the boost. I don't know if the PX5 has an optical input, but you would have to chain it before the amp. Soundcard-->Px5-->kenwood-->headphones


----------



## Fa11ou7

Ohh ya, good idea, I totally spaced that option. I love the PX5 because it has more options than most DH units, Optical in and out, RCA in, and 3.5mm headphone out so your not stuck using the wireless HPs (which are actually pretty decent).


----------



## Evshrug

Hey, I'm not gonna judge you for spacing out a little. I often lose my train of thought while writing, which IMO has a worse effect.


----------



## nicholars

I have a Xonar D2 and a Dacmagic DAC > NAD 326Bee amplifier > Headphones
   
  This is fine for music but I would REALLY like to get dolby headphone to work in games when running through my dac / amplifier although I am not sure if this is possible, someone told me that there is a way of doing it?
   
  Is it possible to do this? Or do the headphones have to be plugged directly into the soundcard?
   
  Thanks much appreciated!


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





nicholars said:


> I have a Xonar D2 and a Dacmagic DAC > NAD 326Bee amplifier > Headphones
> 
> This is fine for music but I would REALLY like to get Dolby headphone to work in games when running through my dac / amplifier although I am not sure if this is possible, someone told me that there is a way of doing it?
> 
> ...


 
  Newer models of Xonar cards (STX, ST, DX, DG) can pass Dolby Headphone thru the S/PDIF port.
  Update to the latest drivers for the D2.
  Then try the setting for surround sound.
  Audio channels, set to 6 or 8
  Sample rate, maybe 24/96
   
  Does the analog out have a "Headphone" setting?
  If so set to "Headphone"
   
  Then enable S/PDIF output for PCM (not DDL).
  Hopefully that works.


----------



## nicholars

Actually yeh it works with the new drivers, with the old ones it just crashed.
   
  Do you know what the best settings for "virtual headphone shifter" are?
   
  Mainly I want it for positional audio on counter strike but it is a bit echoey and weird sounding on the settings u posted.
   
  Thanks for the help.


----------



## Th3Beh0ldeR

I finally ordered a headphone set-up. AKG Q-701 Green(couldn't resist them
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) with O2 amp. I believe they will arive within 20 days and i will post my thoughs on gaming then.
  Seems there are lot of opinions regarding headphones and amps, its all a matter of taste. Since i wont be hearing a lot of music with them, i have the mako's for the job, i believe that they will be perfect for their puprose.
  I will also try the Q's alone with the prelude and see how it goes, i am just curius to see how much difference an Amp will like on them.


----------



## freitz

Good news I just ordered the AKG K550, using Ti-HD and E11 as my amp (might switch to a dedicated desktop amp much like the O2)


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





nicholars said:


> Actually yeh it works with the new drivers, with the old ones it just crashed.
> Do you know what the best settings for "virtual headphone shifter" are?
> Mainly I want it for positional audio on counter strike but it is a bit echoey and weird sounding on the settings u posted..


 
  I've never used the Virtual Headphone Shifter and know zero about it.
  But try asking about it on this thread.
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/421890/the-xonar-essence-stx-q-a-tweaking-impressions-thread


----------



## nicholars

I got some settings I am quite pleased with now....
   
  8 channels
   
  Dolby headphone DH2
   
  Speaker shifter off
   
  Sound pretty good for CS:GO


----------



## Ban13

I'd first like to thank Nameless for this great thread, answered a lot of my questions. Also, +1 on the guide for the X-Fi panel.
   
  Today, I finally received a brand new Titanium HD, made the choice because I pretty much only play Project Reality (PR)- a mod for Battlefield 2. After inserting the card, installing driver package from the first post in this thread and trying everything in PR I have several questions:
   
  1. I use an application called Volume2 to control in-game volume by simply holding down shift key and scrolling up and down with the mouse wheel. Because I also you Mumble and TeamSpeak with PR I set Volume2 to change the volume only for the 'active' application. However after setting PR audio to X-Fi and Ultra High volume control isn't working anymore. It works fine with everything else though. So my question would be what exactly happens to BF2 after setting audio to X-Fi? Does another applications take control of the sound?
   
  2. I'm not sure if my Game Mode screen has the usual features. I don't really see CMSS-3D Headphone anywhere, just CMSS-3D. I took a few screenshots, just to clarify.
   
  3. My microphone seems really quiet and I just can't find any +20dB boost options or anything similar. I have set everything else to 100%. It might also be the other way around, that my playback is set too high (100%).
   
  That's about it, thanks for your time.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





ban13 said:


> 2. I'm not sure if my Game Mode screen has the usual features. I don't really see CMSS-3D Headphone anywhere, just CMSS-3D. I took a few screenshots, just to clarify.


 
  You just need to turn it on and make sure your speakers are set to headphone on the bottom half of the panel(like it is for all but the top left screenshot).
   
  Then just set the Window's playback options for it to 5.1 and you should be good to go.


----------



## Ban13

Thanks, I did that already.


----------



## obazavil

Hmm... I downloaded the latest beta drivers from creative website. The panel is very different... Where did you download that drivers? from NamelessFPG link? Any difference just isntalling the latest beta drivers for win8 from namelessFPG link? (I'm using Win8) Regards, Omar


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





obazavil said:


> Hmm... I downloaded the latest beta drivers from creative website. The panel is very different... Where did you download that drivers? from NamelessFPG link? Any difference just isntalling the latest beta drivers for win8 from namelessFPG link? (I'm using Win8) Regards, Omar


 
  My panel looks the same and I installed from the CD, then used the update tool to update.
   
  Maybe it's different for Windows 8? Can you post a screenshot?
   
  How are the drivers and interface for Windows 8 by the way? I was looking to upgrade sometime soon for a performance increase but I'm worried about compatibility issues.


----------



## Ban13

Update:
   
  Quote: 





ban13 said:


> I'd first like to thank Nameless for this great thread, answered a lot of my questions. Also, +1 on the guide for the X-Fi panel.
> 
> Today, I finally received a brand new Titanium HD, made the choice because I pretty much only play Project Reality (PR)- a mod for Battlefield 2. After inserting the card, installing driver package from the first post in this thread and trying everything in PR I have several questions:
> 
> ...


----------



## loki993

Hi. So just wondering if I read the front page right basically only Creative cards have the capability to output surround to any source, ie USB?  Here is my issue. I have basically the crappiest, at least feature wise, onboard soundcard in my laptop. Its an IDT, cant even get update drivers from the website. They say we wont put drivers up get them from the manufacturer, Hp, and they're from 2010, They are surround sound though. Anyway couple that with the fact that my headphone jack is messed up and has a mind of its own I want to be rid of it.
  
 I listen to a lot of music on my laptop so the surround sound isn't usually a huge deal but I do game a bit too and the surround would be nice for that. 
  
 So I bought a Fiio E10 knowing full well it probably be losing the surround sound capability, because as far as I know there isn't a setting for my soundcard to redirect the processing.
  
 However I did just remember, the graphics card does have built in audio too that will change over when the displayport is plugged in, HP HDMI basically,  I wonder if I can redirect that somehow to USB. Its a Nvida NVS 3100M.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





loki993 said:


> Hi. So just wondering if I read the front page right basically only Creative cards have the capability to output surround to any source, ie USB?  Here is my issue. I have basically the crappiest, at least feature wise, onboard soundcard in my laptop. Its an IDT, cant even get update drivers from the website. They say we wont put drivers up get them from the manufacturer, Hp, and they're from 2010, They are surround sound though. Anyway couple that with the fact that my headphone jack is messed up and has a mind of its own I want to be rid of it.
> 
> I listen to a lot of music on my laptop so the surround sound isn't usually a huge deal but I do game a bit too and the surround would be nice for that.
> 
> ...


 
   
  USB audio devices can theoretically play back any sound card's audio if you're running Windows 7 or later, but the audio quality takes a big hit. Thus, I wouldn't recommend it if you can use an S/PDIF DAC instead. (I really should edit that into my guide...)
   
  For a laptop, I would have advised something like the X-Fi Surround 5.1 (older revision with CMSS-3D Headphone instead of THX TruStudio Surround) or the Xonar U3, as you still have some gaming audio support that way.
   
  HDMI audio devices wouldn't be recommended for gaming unless the game in question does software audio mixing. For DS3D/OAL-based games, the only suitable HDMI card would be the uncommon Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD.


----------



## ivon3ry

Hi
  
 I'm new on this forum and sorry for ma language, soon i will buy soundcard, headphones and tube amp. I think about:
  
 Creative Titanium HD
 Little Dot MK IV SE
 Beyerdynamic DT 990 600 Ohm
  
 This is good idea?


----------



## genclaymore

I used to have a Titanium HD PCI-E my self couple of years ago, Its is a good card and you should enjoy it it very well. When I had it, I didn't have any issues with it. Other then me going mad with my Op-amp rolling that I used to be into.  One thing,  headphone mode in the control panel also works when you are using the RCA outputs on the card, Into the tube amp. So when you game and config it, you can still use CMSS3D headphone. If you decide to use it.


----------



## Heartsdale

I was about to give up DH by replacing my Essence STX + DT 880 (250 ohm) with a Magni/Modi + HE-400. I just don't game as much and wanted to upgrade. Reading your guide, I was very happy to see that its possible for me to still have DH with the Modi for the occasional gaming session. Then I read all the way through this thread and came upon:
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> USB audio devices can theoretically play back any sound card's audio if you're running Windows 7 or later, but the audio quality takes a big hit. Thus, I wouldn't recommend it if you can use an S/PDIF DAC instead. (I really should edit that into my guide...)


 
  How big of a hit? Enough to warrant moving up to a Bifrost for the coax input?
   
  Games I play are mostly FPS and MMOs. Music is EDM, Rock, and Asian pop.


----------



## chewy4

I don't understand why using USB would make the audio quality take a hit at all, I'd like to hear the logic behind that.
   
  Are you sure that's even possible though? I don't recall seeing that option in the Xonar control panel.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





heartsdale said:


> I was about to give up DH by replacing my Essence STX + DT 880 (250 ohm) with a Magni/Modi + HE-400. I just don't game as much and wanted to upgrade. Reading your guide, I was very happy to see that its possible for me to still have DH with the Modi for the occasional gaming session. Then I read all the way through this thread and came upon:
> How big of a hit? Enough to warrant moving up to a Bifrost for the coax input?
> 
> Games I play are mostly FPS and MMOs. Music is EDM, Rock, and Asian pop.


 
   
  Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> I don't understand why using USB would make the audio quality take a hit at all, I'd like to hear the logic behind that.
> 
> Are you sure that's even possible though? I don't recall seeing that option in the Xonar control panel.


 
   
  It's not so much the USB audio devices being hindered by the USB interface as it is Windows 7's means of playing back audio from one output device through another. That, when tested with the USB audio devices I have, leads to very audible noise and distortion in the signal of the sort you wouldn't notice from listening to any of the audio devices directly.
   
  S/PDIF just happens to bypass that Windows sound stack muckery, which is why it doesn't have the sound quality hit.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> It's not so much the USB audio devices being hindered by the USB interface as it is Windows 7's means of playing back audio from one output device through another. That, when tested with the USB audio devices I have, leads to very audible noise and distortion in the signal of the sort you wouldn't notice from listening to any of the audio devices directly.
> 
> S/PDIF just happens to bypass that Windows sound stack muckery, which is why it doesn't have the sound quality hit.


 
  I see, that makes more sense.


----------



## Ban13

MacroFX and ElevationFilter on X-Fi cards- do you guys keep it on Auto, On or Off and why?


----------



## ivon3ry

Quote: 





ban13 said:


> MacroFX and ElevationFilter on X-Fi cards- do you guys keep it on Auto, On or Off and why?


 
   
  i always have off


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ban13 said:


> MacroFX and ElevationFilter on X-Fi cards- do you guys keep it on Auto, On or Off and why?


 
   
  Elevation Filter = On. Having it on makes all the difference in DS3D/OAL games, really highlighting the difference between proper 3D sound where you can distinguish the height of sounds, and virtual 5.1/7.1 where you can't.
   
  MacroFX = Auto. What this does is make sounds that are closer in proximity louder, which nicely reflects real life...but the reason I don't leave it set to On is that very close sounds, especially those you generate like gunshots, are uncomfortably loud to the point where I have to turn down the overall volume, and that can very easily hinder my ability to hear distant, faint sounds.
   
  I haven't really figured out if there's a practical difference between "Auto" and "Off" yet. Creative suggests that Auto lets the game engine decide whether to apply the effect or not, but I find that a lot of game developers don't apply it when it should be applied, particularly in the case of the Elevation Filter.


----------



## AzureBeat

So, has anyone tried the Z-Series yet? Some of the features they have look real nice, and I don't play old games, so that reason for the Titanium HD isn't there.Also, from my reading, it seems that there is no good way to do Usb based 3D audio, correct? Not really interested in fake Dolby, if there's a better option available.
   
  I don't have any money to get anything right now, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and as I bought some headphones before I found this place and became really aware that there was even a difference in sound quality, so I'm stuck with some crappy ones.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
  Not Beats. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Plantronics gamecom 720. Not really great, IMO.


----------



## Evshrug

azurebeat said:


> So, has anyone tried the Z-Series yet? Some of the features they have look real nice, and I don't play old games, so that reason for the Titanium HD isn't there. Also, from my reading, it seems that there is no good way to do Usb based 3D audio, correct? Not really interested in fake Dolby, if there's a better option available.
> 
> I don't have any money to get anything right now,  and as I bought some headphones before I found this place and became really aware that there was even a difference in sound quality, so I'm stuck with some crappy ones.
> 
> Not Beats.  Plantronics gamecom 720. Not really great, IMO.




AzureBeat,
I haven't yet, but I want to. Although, besides the amping quality upgrades, most of the new series features are also on the Titanium HD, which still works well with new games and is a bargain compared to the $250 MSRP Sound Blaster ZxR. I think EAX is the main X-Fi tech that's not been natively featured in a game for a while – 3D positional audio is still part of games like Borderlands 2 with OpenAL (FWIR both the X-Fi and Z-series cards use libraries like OpenAL to apply 3D positions to audio). The price makes it a hard sell for me, the other models below the new flagship don't outperform the Titanium HD, the previous flagship.

I think both the X-Fi Go! LIVE USB audio dongle and the Recon3D USB support ALchemy and 3D audio as part of their software suite. I bet the Recon3D could've been smaller if Creative hadn't designed it for baby-finger ergonomics, but you didn't ask about size  I don't think the Dolby processing accounts for height cues, just a circle around you like a 5.1 or 7.1 channel speaker setup. Dolby was designed for movies, not games, and Dolby headphone was designed to sound like a 5.1 speaker setup. I could say Dolby sounds like fake DTS, though neither will differentiate sound if an enemy is just around the corner, just around the corner upstairs, or just around the corner downstairs. It doesn't always matter, but as I become more aware of using audio, the more annoyed I am when my ninja moves trick me.

And hey, if you bought headphones and think they're crappy (they can't be _that_ bad, just not _that_ good), at least the Gamecom 720 is a whole lot cheaper than Beats 

I heard Nameless is selling a Recon3D USB pretty cheap: you could save up for that. I'm always saving up for something  Right now, I'm saving for a new CPU and a new car


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I heard Nameless is selling a Recon3D USB pretty cheap: you could save up for that. I'm always saving up for something
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I still am. $70 shipped, if anyone's interested. You'd be hard-pressed to find it selling that low anywhere else, and it's in complete and working order.
   
  I have to admit, I'm not doing a particularly good job of saving money right now, but I'll eventually sort myself out to the point where I have enough for a whole new desktop computer.


----------



## Jhalf

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> AzureBeat,
> I haven't yet, but I want to. Although, besides the amping quality upgrades, most of the new series features are also on the Titanium HD, which still works well with new games and is a bargain compared to the $250 MSRP Sound Blaster ZxR. I think EAX is the main X-Fi tech that's not been natively featured in a game for a while – 3D positional audio is still part of games like Borderlands 2 with OpenAL (FWIR both the X-Fi and Z-series cards use libraries like OpenAL to apply 3D positions to audio). The price makes it a hard sell for me, the other models below the new flagship don't outperform the Titanium HD, the previous flagship.
> 
> I think both the X-Fi Go! LIVE USB audio dongle and the Recon3D USB support ALchemy and 3D audio as part of their software suite. I bet the Recon3D could've been smaller if Creative hadn't designed it for baby-finger ergonomics, but you didn't ask about size
> ...


 

 Eh, so my M-Stage came today (Wasnt expecting it) which caused me to have a mad dash to Microcenter before they closed, and they only had the Creative Z, not the DGX, like I want. So i bought it and brought it home. Currently have it set up like: Z->Front line out-> RCA-> M-Stage-> Annies.
   
  Its the same as the Phoebus. Creative's SBX Pro Studio has a "Surround Sound" Slider that you can adjust how much surround you want. Its just like Dolby HTV4, and not as good as Dolby Headphone.
   
  I dont understand why they seem to be getting rid of discrete 5.1->stereo technologies in favor of these "surround sound" emulators.
   
  Ill be returning it tomorrow to get a DGX from another Microcenter.


----------



## nicholars

What is the point in buying a now discontinued creative card if the game developers are no longer using those technologies? May as well just get an Asus Xonar or am I wrong?


----------



## Jhalf

Quote: 





nicholars said:


> What is the point in buying a now discontinued creative card if the game developers are no longer using those technologies? May as well just get an Asus Xonar or am I wrong?


 

 I'm not sure what you mean, Creative just released the Z series.


----------



## nicholars

Quote: 





jhalf said:


> I'm not sure what you mean, Creative just released the Z series.


 
   
  Oh yes I was not aware that they released anything since the old X FI...
   
  From what I can see though these new Z series are just dolby headphone like Xonar?
   
  Edit - Oh yes they have EAX as well.... But do any new games have EAX anymore?
   
  Not sure what the more expensive new creative cards really offer over the Xonar other than EAX?


----------



## Evshrug

nicholars said:


> Oh yes I was not aware that they released anything since the old X FI...
> 
> From what I can see though these new Z series are just dolby headphone like Xonar?
> 
> ...




Sorry gotta be brief, but you don't fully understand.
Creative cards don't use Dolby headphone
Creative's cards allow 3D surround, Dolby headphone is just a 2D circle that wraps around front side back, 3D surround lets you hear above and below. New games are still being released with this.

Nameless will sort you out on the rest.

Jhalf, sure you have your settings right? It's gotta be surround or 5.1 all the way until the very end, ask Nameless for tips before returning.


----------



## NamelessPFG

The thing I've noticed about the THX TruStudio Surround slider is that depending on its position, it biases the sound positioning more toward either the front or the rear. It's made quite obvious if you do some Windows speaker tests and note whether the front channels sound like they're in front or off to the sides.
   
  Even in the sweet spot, though, I still don't think it sounds as good as CMSS-3D Headphone at its best, or even Dolby Headphone when working with 5.1/7.1-mixed sources.
   
  EAX is just a set of reverb/chorus/occlusion effects. Older games used them, but similar effects can easily be done in software or through OpenAL's EFX, which is available to all devices.
   
  What you really need to be concerned with is whether a game uses either the DirectSound3D or OpenAL APIs, as those are what allow for proper 3D headphone surround. Sometimes, you have to jump through a few hoops to enable them, like with Source engine games, Amnesia: The Dark Descent, or Borderlands 2.
   
  Even if that isn't the case, Creative's surround tech still helps out, but it's dragged down to virtual 5.1/7.1, much like how Dolby Headphone works.
   
  Oh, and I definitely would have suggested returning that Sound Blaster Z card...to get an X-Fi Titanium HD in its place.


----------



## Jhalf

I picked up the DGX, and am installing it now. Installing the Unified Xonar C-Media Driver


----------



## nicholars

Doesn't the Asus Xonar support OPENAL anyway?
   
  So the only thing that the Creatives benifit over the Asus Xonar is EAX? Which is becomming obsolete now anyway?
   
  Correct me if I am wrong but I just fail to see the point of spending more on a creative card?


----------



## Evshrug

nicholars said:


> Doesn't the Asus Xonar support OPENAL anyway?
> 
> So the only thing that the Creatives benifit over the Asus Xonar is EAX? Which is becomming obsolete now anyway?
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong but I just fail to see the point of spending more on a creative card?




AAAAGH I just typed out a well-thought out reply, then my web browser crashed!

Ok, basically I was saying you still are missing something. Dolby surround, and dolby headphone, are only 2D surround. I explained what that means here:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/646786/evshrugs-if-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now-discussion-journal

The short version is everything sounds like it's on the same floor as you, but you know that sometimes there are enemies downstairs or Rakk birds divebombing you from the sky, and Creative's cards used with headphones can simulate sounds coming from above and below. Even a 5.1 or 7.1 home theater can't do that!

Now, I'm not going to lie to you, not every game supports 3D audio... console games can only do the ring of sound designed for 5.1 speaker setups. EAX echo-effects are a different effect separate from surround sound, and I personally don't usually like the effect even in the games that had it built-in, and EAX hasn't been featured in a game for a long time. And if you want the cheapest soundcard, Asus probably has the best bargain. Asus' flagship has a slightly better amp than the Titanium HD, but Creative's new ZxR card beats that. But if you find a Creative card for the same or better price within your budget, they don't _lose_ any functionality compared to Asus, and there are many games where the full surround, surround that's 3D and not restricted to channels of audio (well, maybe restricted to 128 channels, but you get the idea), of the Creative card will provide a more immersive and competitive experience.

I recently saw the Titanium HD selling for $110 at J&R, and I'm sad I missed out since I'm between jobs. Also refurb Titaniums regularly show up on Newegg for like $32, though the regular new one right now is available for $44.

GL HF.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





nicholars said:


> Doesn't the Asus Xonar support OPENAL anyway?
> 
> So the only thing that the Creatives benifit over the Asus Xonar is EAX? Which is becomming obsolete now anyway?
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong but I just fail to see the point of spending more on a creative card?


 
   
  If I'm not mistaken, they do have an OpenAL implementation better than the default "Generic Software" one, but there are still the following limitations:
   
  -Dolby Headphone CANNOT use the positional audio data that OpenAL, or DirectSound3D wrapped via DS3DGX, can provide in its native form. It's downmixed to a virtual 7.1 theater system first, and then applies DH to that. Sure, it's a great-sounding virtual 7.1 theater, but why hear a ring of speakers around your position at the same height (meaning no actual height cues that a proper 3D mix can provide) when you can have a native 3D mix that sounds like you're actually there, more like real life than a home theater system trying to sound like real life?
   
  -I don't know how well Asus' OpenAL implementation works out. The biggest test would be Battlefield 2 or 2142 in Creative X-Fi sound mode.
   
  -This doesn't pertain to OpenAL directly, but the DS3DGX wrapper that Asus uses to convert DirectSound3D API calls to OpenAL is said to have issues here and there where Creative's ALchemy doesn't.
   
  But if you were willing to get the Xonar DGX to save on cash, I would have suggested the basic X-Fi Titanium as a similarly-priced alternative at $40-50 shipped...or it would have been, had Newegg not ceased selling them. That bites...
   
  Regardless, if you don't play any games that use the DirectSound3D or OpenAL APIs at all, you'd never see any benefit over the Xonar line or other C-Media chipset cards because the game engine's audio middleware is already doing the dirty work in software. A lot of people here tend to only play games that do it that way, by contrast to my outspokenness for older games. (To the point where I built an older computer with multiple sound cards for games that use Aureal A3D and/or take advantage of a few obscure Sound Blaster AWE32 features, at that.)
   
  Quote: 





evshrug said:


> AAAAGH I just typed out a well-thought out reply, then my web browser crashed!
> 
> Ok, basically I was saying you still are missing something. Dolby surround, and dolby headphone, are only 2D surround. I explained what that means here:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/646786/evshrugs-if-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now-discussion-journal
> ...


 
   
  I know the feeling about losing posts due to browser issues. It's happened to me more than once over the years, though not necessarily on Head-Fi.
   
  Also, good description there in that fourth paragraph. That's largely what I'm trying to explain, though the EAX reverb/chorus is personal taste as usual.
   
  Note that the amount of "channels" for older sound cards, in that context, would better be described as polyphony, or the amount of unique sounds that can be played simultaneously in hardware, on the sound card's DSP, without any sort of performance hit. Obviously, if there are more sounds playing at once than the sound card can handle, some of them have to be dropped entirely, and nobody wants that.
   
  FMOD channels work the same way, just in software, on the CPU. Less audio channels means less CPU load, more audio channels means a lower likelihood of dropped sounds.


----------



## Evshrug

Nameless,
So I've found a few games with OpenAL (was REALLY tempted to buy Borderlands 2 for Mac to see if the Mac version also supports it... Apple has long integrated OpenGL even into the OS' GUI), but could you list a few games with DirectSound3D?

Edit: your post didn't appear on the page till after I finished typing this post. Thanks for the compliment! Although I think I broke it down better in my thread, I wanted to share the "short" version. I used to think 3D surround had died before I joined the party too, but I'm glad games are still being released that use 3D surround (APIs?).

I totally geeked out at best buy today. I told a guy how impressed I was that they were selling Mac games, and I was thinking about getting BL2 for the computer instead of a console. He got all excited and told me all about the graphics quality boost and PhysX effects on PC and 
"No question, if you have a gaming PC you HAVE to get it on PC!" 
I was like "OOOH, yeah! The PC version has OpenAL support for 3D audio with height effects, I'm really curious if the Mac version supports it too."
"Oh, that's cool, you have a 7.1 speaker setup then?"
"It's like that, only better. Instead of a ring of sound, you can hear above and below like in a sphere!"
[sounding confused but intrigued] "What, you have a sphere of speakers?"
[me, kinda dropping the ball] "No, headphones. My soundcard does it."

I didn't explain how it works all that well, but he sounded interested, maybe he'll look it up. I felt I had to cut to the chase because my poor, beleaguered girlfriend's eyes were glazed over somewhere around "OpenAL," poor thing. I'm lucky she still likes me even though I bore her to tears sometimes. I think I got a pass though because I joined a gym with her today though, lol.


----------



## KetchupNinja

Does creative ever improve on said virtual surround techs such as THX TruSurround or SBX Surround?  I'm still contemplating on getting a TiHD + a Schiit Magni vs waiting for the ZxR.  If the surround effects are essentially the same, I would rather have the external amp for my other sources.


----------



## Evshrug

ketchupninja said:


> Does creative ever improve on said virtual surround techs such as THX TruSurround or SBX Surround?  I'm still contemplating on getting a TiHD + a Schiit Magni vs waiting for the ZxR.  If the surround effects are essentially the same, I would rather have the external amp for my other sources.




I like having an external amp too, in fact I like having my components separate in general; so if I want to upgrade my soundcard later, I still get to keep my external amp, and if I got headphones that require more power but I'm happy with my soundcard or DAC, I could keep the soundcard and just upgrade the amp.

As far as improve on CMSS-3D, THX TruStudio Pro, or SBX Pro Studio surround processing, I haven't heard of like a firmware upgrade that improves the processing. I do think Creative replaced CMSS-3D with the THX TruStudio Pro suit of tools in the Recon3D models, they sound different though there is room to debate which one sounds "better." I personally _like_ the THX one best and positional cues work best for my ears, but Nameless feels the same way about CMSS-3D, and MLE about Dolby Headphone. In the end, everyone's ears are different, and Your Milage Might Vary from mine. SBX Pro Studio is another suit of tools that is supposed to directly replace everything THX TruStudio Pro did... I haven't heard it yet (haven't seen any examples, not even officially from Creative), but I suspect the only change is they stopped paying THX and changed the name.

The cool thing is, Creative added THX TruStudio Pro (recently?) to the Titanium HD in addition to CMSS-3D, so you can try both (right Nameless? Or does the Ti HD disable height filters in THX mode?). The Titanium HD is only $160 new, $105 used on Amazon right now, but the ZxR is listed as having a $249 MSRP. I wouldn't be surprised if that card's hardware provides a general audio quality upgrade over the Ti HD, but I also wouldn't be surprised if Creative discontinued the X-Fi cards at that point.

The Recon3D series, with it's SoundCore3D CPU (or would that be audio processing unit, APU?), is said to have compatability problems with some games because the hardware is different than the X-Fi chipset, but I don't have a large enough game library myself to test this (yet  I'm transitioning from console gaming). One example was Thief, which didn't play sound during cutscenes, but surprisingly that game was recently patched and now works fine. I know that's an older game, but I'm hoping to pick it up soon because it's supposed to be quite a fun and unique game, and an audio masterpiece (essential to sneaking).

I myself have the mid-range Recon3D USB, because it works with both PCs and consoles. It is background hiss is inaudible for me on my AKG headphones, but straight out of the device I have to almost set the volume to max and sometimes the treble can sound a bit edgy and the soundstage kinda shallow... adding an amp better suited to the Q701 has fixed all my issues  For amping, I'm currently having the good fortune to test two models pre-release: a FiiO E12 Mont Blanc portable solid state amp, and a Rock & Glass tube hybrid desktop amp from a DIY'er on Head-Fi named Zigis. With my Audio Technica AD700, which are much easier to drive, the Recon3D does fine by itself without additional amping. I want to compare the Ti HD and ZxR myself to see which I like best, but right now I don't have the money to afford either.


----------



## KetchupNinja

Thank you Evshrug!  You've pretty much convinced me to go with the card + amp route.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I like having an external amp too, in fact I like having my components separate in general; so if I want to upgrade my soundcard later, I still get to keep my external amp, and if I got headphones that require more power but I'm happy with my soundcard or DAC, I could keep the soundcard and just upgrade the amp.
> 
> As far as improve on CMSS-3D, THX TruStudio Pro, or SBX Pro Studio surround processing, I haven't heard of like a firmware upgrade that improves the processing. I do think Creative replaced CMSS-3D with the THX TruStudio Pro suit of tools in the Recon3D models, they sound different though there is room to debate which one sounds "better." I personally _like_ the THX one best and positional cues work best for my ears, but Nameless feels the same way about CMSS-3D, and MLE about Dolby Headphone. In the end, everyone's ears are different, and Your Milage Might Vary from mine. SBX Pro Studio is another suit of tools that is supposed to directly replace everything THX TruStudio Pro did... I haven't heard it yet (haven't seen any examples, not even officially from Creative), but I suspect the only change is they stopped paying THX and changed the name.
> 
> ...


 
   
  If you want examples of DirectSound3D games, there's too many for me to count. Far more of them than OpenAL games, that's for sure (which is why I depend on a good wrapper like ALchemy). But as a loose estimate, I'd say that DS3D was used up 'til 2004 or so before OpenAL really started taking over.
   
  Speaking of Mac gaming, I recall reading a few tidbits of people putting Sound Blaster Live! cards into old Power Macs and actually making use of them. I wonder how Mac games handled hardware audio acceleration in the Classic Mac OS days, if at all, since OpenAL didn't exist yet (or just wasn't used for that at the time). After all, everyone serious about computer gaming ran Windows, and that hasn't changed to this day. (If anything, I see less proper Mac OS X ports and more emphasis on just using Darwine/CrossOver to run Windows games, now that CPU architecture isn't a barrier.)
   
  The thing about THX TruStudio on the Titanium HD is that it's only available in Entertainment Mode. Full hardware audio acceleration for games in only available in Game Mode. Needless to say, I stay in Game Mode 99% of the time. Even for software-mixed games, I still feel that CMSS-3D Headphone brings out the virtual 5.1 positional cues better than THX TruStudio Surround does.
   
  But as you said, your mileage WILL vary when it comes to headphone surround features. I may be outspoken in my opinions like MLE, but ultimately, your ears have to make the final decision as to which sounds best.


----------



## Evshrug

I'm gonna guess SB cards in power macs used generic or modified drivers or extensions, and they probably just ran in stereo.

Aspyre was/is the last major Mac games 'porter, I used to see some action from Feral and a few game companies wrote for both Windows and Mac natively, but there was a sharp decline around the time MS bought former Mac gaming star Bungie and fewer games used id's engine. Lucasarts? I don't think Source was ever coded to run on Mac. Another big factor was game devs didn't want to learn to code in Cocoa (OS X's standard). By the time Apple said "Ok, now program 'universal' apps that'll run on PowerPC OR intel," game devs had basically said "frak it, there's a larger gamer capital pool with Windows."

I _understand_ Mac game development made little business sense, but I still felt loss and felt somebody had missed the boat. Steve, I guess. Thought playing games was a waste of time compared to producing stuff, if you want to have computer fun you should pick up Steve's hobby of music.

The only classic Mac-exclusive games I played that were really special were Marathon (especially Infinity, the 3rd game) and Escape Velocity. Fortunately I guess, Windows eventually got access to those too by open-sourced game engines or developers eventually making a Windows version, so... You can enjoy the best Mac gaming has to offer.

Most played game, ever, for me:
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/


----------



## Razeredge

Hey Nameless, on the last page you mentioned that Source engine games support OpenAL... could you elaborate?
   
  From what I've seen, they only support OpenAL on OSX.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





razeredge said:


> Hey Nameless, on the last page you mentioned that Source engine games support OpenAL... could you elaborate?
> 
> From what I've seen, they only support OpenAL on OSX.


 
   
  I'm not sure how the OpenAL implementation works on Windows. Maybe there isn't one at all. At the very least, using that command line argument to try and enable it results in no obvious audible difference.
   
  I do know, however, that it supports DirectSound3D (thus requiring ALchemy) by switching the Miles Sound System to DS3D output via the "snd_legacy_surround" console command.


----------



## Jhalf

Alright, So after using the Phoebus, Z, and DGX, I can confidently say I like Dolby headphone the best. DHTV4 and Prostudio felt gimicky to me, and there was an instant difference for me. BF3 ounded much better in Dolby Headphone mode, with no other processing.
   
  I will be returning the Z.


----------



## genclaymore

Did you config the Z's Tru studio the same way you normally config CMSS3D headphone or DH headphone, Which is setting windows speakers settings to 5.1 along with the games, and Set the creative panel to headphones?  This what  I do on the Recon3D when I use it and it works good for me. But then I don't know which headphones you are using, As they all react differently to difference headphones. But I find if I do not config it like I mention, Then all 3  CMSS3D,DH Mode 1 and Tru studio will not sound right.  Also I don't use any of the profiles when I game, I make my own and change Thur studio surround sound, to my liking and I disable both bass and crystazlier setting, But I use dialog plus and volume leveler which I both i set to my liking.  I forgot to mention I also disable the sub when I have it config like this, So the overpower bass issue doesn't happen, when you have it set to 5.1 in windows, when using Tru studio 3D.


----------



## Razeredge

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I'm not sure how the OpenAL implementation works on Windows. Maybe there isn't one at all. At the very least, using that command line argument to try and enable it results in no obvious audible difference.
> 
> I do know, however, that it supports DirectSound3D (thus requiring ALchemy) by switching the Miles Sound System to DS3D output via the "snd_legacy_surround" console command.


 
   
  Sweet, I'll try this when I get home. TF2 with proper audio would be awesomesauce.


----------



## Evshrug

Oh, apparently HL2 and the portal games were ported to Mac...


----------



## zerocraft

Has anyone noticed windows sound settings reverting from 5.1 to 2.1 speakers randomly ?  I am not sure whats doing it... really annoying.  Also sometimes on restarting my speaker balance is thrown off, I usually keep everything maxed, but after restarts left and right front channels end up at 67, while everything else will remain at 100.
   
  I'm also wondering if it's even worth it to bother with X-Fi anymore, 99% of games I play are newer ones with pre-mixed surround audio, so I am really considering switching to Dolby based stuff.  How do x-fi / xonar dgx perform when it comes to software rendered binaural techs ?


----------



## AzureBeat

As far as the Z series goes, I'm really only interested in 3d sound for one game: Counter-Strike: Global Offensive. A source game, so as long as the 3d positioning is accurate, then I'm pretty much just concerned with sound quality for music. And the external headphone control is a nice feature, esp. with the volume control(I'm lazy) and I think it has a microphone(?). So that would seem to be functionally equivalent to having an external amp for a HD series.


----------



## Razeredge

Quote: 





azurebeat said:


> As far as the Z series goes, I'm really only interested in 3d sound for one game: Counter-Strike: Global Offensive. A source game, so as long as the 3d positioning is accurate, then I'm pretty much just concerned with sound quality for music. And the external headphone control is a nice feature, esp. with the volume control(I'm lazy) and I think it has a microphone(?). So that would seem to be functionally equivalent to having an external amp for a HD series.


 

 I just tested out snd_legacy_surround in CS:GO on my Titanium HD and AD700s. It's excellent... I was doing waaaaaaaaay better than ever before...


----------



## AzureBeat

I don't doubt it, that's why I'm looking into this. My thoughts are that if the 3d ability is equal, then better sound quality becomes the most deciding factor, and if that is close, than other features become the decision maker. I had heard some comments that the SQ of the HD series was not so great.


----------



## KetchupNinja

Quote: 





azurebeat said:


> I don't doubt it, that's why I'm looking into this. My thoughts are that if the 3d ability is equal, then better sound quality becomes the most deciding factor, and if that is close, than other features become the decision maker. I had heard some comments that the SQ of the HD series was not so great.


 
  The DAC used in the TiHD is the same as the top line ZxR card, so sound quality wise they should be on par with each other.  The only thing I can really see that is different is that the Z series cards advertise that they are using gold nichicon caps...but as you may have heard, some of the newer shipments are running with something different.


----------



## Evshrug

ketchupninja said:


> The DAC used in the TiHD is the same as the top line ZxR card, so sound quality wise they should be on par with each other.  The only thing I can really see that is different is that the Z series cards advertise that they are using gold nichicon caps...but as you may have heard, some of the newer shipments are running with something different.




What do gold nichicon capacitors net you? I'm not exactly sure what causes the improved SNR, but I know there's more to sound quality than the DAC. Also, glad my suggestion made your choice easier 

AzureBeat,
The volume puck is sexy, especially because the front hp/mic plugs on my computer case don't work (probably my fault during the build, but I was so careful...). I think you have to at least get the Zx card to get it though. The "Beamforming" mic is included in all the Z-series cards I think.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





zerocraft said:


> Has anyone noticed windows sound settings reverting from 5.1 to 2.1 speakers randomly ?  I am not sure whats doing it... really annoying.  Also sometimes on restarting my speaker balance is thrown off, I usually keep everything maxed, but after restarts left and right front channels end up at 67, while everything else will remain at 100.
> 
> I'm also wondering if it's even worth it to bother with X-Fi anymore, 99% of games I play are newer ones with pre-mixed surround audio, so I am really considering switching to Dolby based stuff.  How do x-fi / xonar dgx perform when it comes to software rendered binaural techs ?


 
   
  Windows speaker settings never switch up on me like that, but volume resetting to a particular percentage in Headphones mode has been a quirk of X-Fi drivers for all cards other than the Titanium HD. I'm not sure why.
   
  In software-mixed games where all you get is virtual 7.1 at the max anyway, they both perform about equally, just that CMSS-3D Headphone emphasizes treble a bit while Dolby Headphone emphasizes bass. Both are much, much better than playing in stereo, at least for me.
   
  Quote: 





azurebeat said:


> I don't doubt it, that's why I'm looking into this. My thoughts are that if the 3d ability is equal, then better sound quality becomes the most deciding factor, and if that is close, than other features become the decision maker. I had heard some comments that the SQ of the HD series was not so great.


 
   
  They're certainly not coming from me. I have no complaints about the Titanium HD's analog output in its stock state.
   
  Sound presentation-wise, with EQ, bass boost, and other such features off, it even seems to have a bit more bass punch than Auzentech's X-Fi offerings (Prelude and Forte), which were already no slouch in that department. Nothing overpowering to utterly skew the overall frequency balance, but a slightly increased presence I noticed for sure.
   
  This is with the default JRC 2114D/LME49710 opamp configuration. I once tried swapping the JRCs with LME49860s, but that resulted in the most horridly V-shaped frequency response I've heard in a long time, with exaggerated bass and treble notes along with insultingly recessed midrange.


----------



## DreamKing

Great thread, got some questions for anyone with answers:

-how do you switch modes in the creative console? All i see is entertainment. It's getting annoying having to change a bunch of settings whenever I just want to listen to music. In win7 64 bit I can't see any gaming mode.

-does setting the windows audio configuration to 7.1 affect foobar, the browser or any other program? The boxes are checked where it says programs can take over the speaker's configuration. I'd like to just keep at that if it doesn't affect anything besides gaming. 

- is cmss-3d the better choice when only playing single player or is DH better? (non-competitive gaming only) 

-also is DH much easier to use compared to cmss-3D? It took me 2 days to get correct drivers since the official ones on creative's website were not working at all. Same goes for the official versions of their software. Does dolby headphone take into account the audio configuration of windows as well? How does it work. 

Thank you


----------



## NamelessPFG

There are two ways to switch X-Fi modes (on real X-Fi cards only, software-based "X-Fi" products are limited to Entertainment Mode):
   
  -All Console Launcher control panels have a "Mode" button at the lower-left corner. Click that, and you get your mode selection.
  -Alternatively, right-click the Volume Panel system tray icon (looks like a metallic volume knob), and there's a Mode Switch area there. I find this method much more convenient.
   
  Setting the Windows speaker layout to 5.1 or 7.1 shouldn't impact any other program negatively, since stereo sources sound exactly the same as in stereo speaker mode (provided that CMSS-3D Headphone's off). You have nothing to lose and everything to gain for surround sound sources!
   
  Personally, I'd still use CMSS-3D Headphone for non-competitive play. Just having a proper 3D sound mix is its own immersion factor, and if the tonal balance isn't to your taste, that's what the EQ is for. But there are people known to prefer Dolby Headphone anyway, sometimes to the point of setting an X-Fi to Dolby Digital Live output and feeding a console Dolby Headphone processor with the signal. (This is how I formed my own CMSS-3D vs. DH comparisons, incidentally.) Only you can really decide which sounds better to you.
   
  I don't consider CMSS-3D Headphone that hard to set up, really. It's a one-time process of just setting the X-Fi to Game Mode, then the speaker layout to Headphones, then setting Windows to 5.1/7.1 speakers. Of course, it's something that Creative should have completely automated to begin with, but that's just the way it is.


----------



## DreamKing

Thank you for your reply, the problem I have with the setup is that whenever I want to listen to music I have to set the control panel back to 2.1 channels and that changes window's configuration to 2 channela as well. I keep hearing about a setting that makes it so that your settings don't affect the windows configuration but I don't see it. Is it just not available in windows 7? The settings issues aren't that dramatic, admittedly, but I was just wondering if I was doing something wrong or if I ddidn't have the correct software versions for my OS.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





dreamking said:


> Thank you for your reply, the problem I have with the setup is that whenever I want to listen to music I have to set the control panel back to 2.1 channels and that changes window's configuration to 2 channela as well. I keep hearing about a setting that makes it so that your settings don't affect the windows configuration but I don't see it. Is it just not available in windows 7? The settings issues aren't that dramatic, admittedly, but I was just wondering if I was doing something wrong or if I ddidn't have the correct software versions for my OS.


 
  You shouldn't be changing around those settings in the creative control panel at all if you're using the same device. If you're using headphones, keep it on headphones mode, not 2.1 or 5.1. The 2.1 and 5.1 settings are for actual 2.1 and 5.1 speakers.


----------



## DreamKing

Oh so headphone mode doesn't affect sound quality? I thought 2 channels was the preferred setup for music with xfi cards.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> You shouldn't be changing around those settings in the creative control panel at all if you're using the same device. If you're using headphones, keep it on headphones mode, not 2.1 or 5.1. The 2.1 and 5.1 settings are for actual 2.1 and 5.1 speakers.


 
  The main reason to change it to 5.1 instead of 2.1 is when one is using either CMSS3D headphone,Dolby headphone or Tru studio pro 3D. All 3 works best when you have windows speaker settings set to 5.1 instead of stereo in windows as well as games. As all works best when set like that. They don't work that good if you keep it on stereo. I tested both ways and keeping it on 5.1 while using all 3 worked the best, When your gaming. Of course you don't use it and use stereo when your listening to music. Because using either 3 for music would be ewww, But when it comes to gaming then they works wonders when they are config right. Mainly for the above and below sounds in games.
  Quote: 





dreamking said:


> Oh so headphone mode doesn't affect sound quality? I thought 2 channels was the preferred setup for music with xfi cards.


 
  I notice that headphone mode did when I was gaming, I don't recall if I notice when I was listening to music, This was years ago when I had a Auzentech X-FI Prelude and a pair of AD700's.  I know I had to switch to 2.1 speaker settings to use the headphones. As Headphone took Alot of the AD700s sound stage, when ever I had it in headphone mode.  Could been a driver issue as this was many years ago.   Last time I used Headphone mode again, I had a X-FI HD PCI-E and DT880 pro-250 running thru a external headphone amp. And every thing was fine with games. But like I said It could been a driver issue all of those years ago, When It annoyed me to use Headphone mode while gaming with those pair of AD700s I had.
   
  Because I remember playing Hellgate London(no not the global the orginal servers) and getting annoyed and exiting out switching it to 2.1 speakers and being happy.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I literally couldn't tell apart Headphone and 2 Speakers modes on the X-Fi cards (either with Daniel_K X-Fi Support Pack 2.5 drivers or the Titanium HD's drivers) for music, no matter how hard I tried. Nor could I tell apart the Windows settings for Stereo and 5.1 Speakers with those same music sources. People kept saying there was a difference, and I really did try to find it, but I found absolutely nothing.
   
  Fortunately for me, that makes things quite convenient when switching between games and music, as that just means I have to switch CMSS-3D Headphone on or off, respectively.
   
  If you're really insistent on a pure audio path for music playback, you might even switch to Audio Creation Mode to enable ASIO support and bit-matched playback, then use an ASIO plugin with the media player of your choice to ensure the purest audio from the source. However, I don't really hear enough benefit to justify switching between Game Mode and Audio Creation Mode all the time, especially with Winamp's OpenAL plugin.


----------



## chewy4

I remember the non-headphone modes sounding terrible on my Audigy when gaming(sounds switching back and forth way too suddenly), haven't tried them on my Titanium yet. I don't see why there should be any problems using it for music, it's made for headphones. Headphones are also 2 channel...
   
  It should only effect CMSS-3D I would think, since then it wouldn't need to add crossfeed.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Remember what I said about USB DACs being unsuitable for gaming compared to S/PDIF ones?
   
  I may have to reconsider that statement now. I don't know what the hell happened with using the Recon3D USB and the Live! 24-bit External in that fashion, where it introduced enough noise that even a non-audiophile could notice, but the JDS Labs-built ObjectiveDAC I got to review along with Mad Lust Envy's HE-400 has NO such problems. Just tell Windows 7/8 to replay "What U Hear" through the ODAC output, and it sounds just fine...
   
  I'll have to experiment a bit more to see if I can reproduce the issue. The Recon3D USB and Live! 24-bit External had their drivers installed, which may have had something to do with it, but the ODAC is conveniently plug-and-play, completely driverless beyond what comes with Windows. (Unfortunately, that makes it unsuitable as a gaming audio DSP by itself...)


----------



## raband

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Remember what I said about USB DACs being unsuitable for gaming compared to S/PDIF ones?
> 
> Just tell Windows 7/8 to replay "What U Hear" through the ODAC output, and it sounds just fine...


 
   
  So you can use the soundcards CMSS processing and output it over the USB to the ODAC?
   
  If so that's awesome. I can get rid of the headphone jack into the O2/ODAC from the Titanium HD's RCA and just use the USB?
   
  I wonder what would be best for use - the Titanium HD's hardware or the ODAC.
   
  (unless I'm reading it wrong and it's not what you mean)


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





raband said:


> So you can use the soundcards CMSS processing and output it over the USB to the ODAC?
> 
> If so that's awesome. I can get rid of the headphone jack into the O2/ODAC from the Titanium HD's RCA and just use the USB?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yeah, anything the sound card normally outputs, be that pure stereo or processed with CMSS-3D Headphone, goes through What U Hear (Stereo Mix). That's the whole point of that "input" in the Recording tab.
   
  You should be able to use the ODAC through USB in theory now, though honestly, I don't notice a dramatic difference between the two right now, at least with the Titanium HD as the default audio device. They both do the job of outputting clean analog audio very well.
   
  I'll probably just stick with the Titanium HD for my desktop and consider getting an ODAC later if I want to set up a dedicated music jukebox somewhere in my house, since the ODAC is more of a "plug-and-play, no muss, no fuss" sort of device.


----------



## raband

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *NamelessPFG* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> You should be able to use the ODAC through USB in theory now, though honestly, I don't notice a dramatic difference between the two right now, at least with the Titanium HD as the default audio device. They both do the job of outputting clean analog audio very well.


 
   
  Yeah - I don't expect a huge difference between the 2, but it could tidy up the desk a little (no need for the extra cable into the already crowded front panel of the O2) and let me play music straight through the DAC without having to change inputs/audio etc.


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> Remember what I said about USB DACs being unsuitable for gaming compared to S/PDIF ones?
> 
> I may have to reconsider that statement now. I don't know what the hell happened with using the Recon3D USB and the Live! 24-bit External in that fashion, where it introduced enough noise that even a non-audiophile could notice, but the JDS Labs-built ObjectiveDAC I got to review along with Mad Lust Envy's HE-400 has NO such problems. Just tell Windows 7/8 to replay "What U Hear" through the ODAC output, and it sounds just fine...
> 
> I'll have to experiment a bit more to see if I can reproduce the issue. The Recon3D USB and Live! 24-bit External had their drivers installed, which may have had something to do with it, but the ODAC is conveniently plug-and-play, completely driverless beyond what comes with Windows. (Unfortunately, that makes it unsuitable as a gaming audio DSP by itself...)



Huh. Background noise was specifically something I thought was really decently controlled on my Recon3D, especially compared to what people described with the DSS and Mixamp. Is the ODAC's USB cable the same you used with your Recon3D (I'm also wondering what type of USB cable the ODAC uses, as it will be my first "high quality" DAC experience)? I have like 4 different kinds of USB cable, I _should_ have the one needed.

Maybe I could use the Recon3D in conjunction with a USB DAC in the future


----------



## raband

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I'm also wondering what type of USB cable the ODAC uses,





>





> Maybe I could use the Recon3D in conjunction with a USB DAC in the future


 
  It takes the mini-b plug (same as the mixamp) with a ferrite bead/choke recommended.
   
  How would you use the Recon3D (it's external isn't it?) with the second external DAC? Doesn't it only output analogue after processing?


----------



## Evshrug

I have never seen a Mixamp in person, TBH. I assume mini-b is the one with the funny divots on the short sides? Google is my friend but I'm about to gym it up, get outta tha house. The Recon3D also offers the What U Hear option, though I haven't used it yet. Might be crazy, but if USB2 has enough bandwidth to send digital audio both ways (not just microphone in, but that should be proof somewhat), then I might be in business ^_^
The Recon3D uses the trapezoid-shaped mini-USB cord BTW, with really narrow short-sides that are almost rounded.

To the google!
Edit: ah, yes, the Recon3D, my phone, my Mont Blanc, and my tablet all use Mini-A, but my FiiO E5 and travel wifi router use Mini-B. Nothing uses a noticeable ferrite shield chunk, though.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I have never seen a Mixamp in person, TBH. I assume mini-b is the one with the funny divots on the short sides? Google is my friend but I'm about to gym it up, get outta tha house. The Recon3D also offers the What U Hear option, though I haven't used it yet. Might be crazy, but if USB2 has enough bandwidth to send digital audio both ways (not just microphone in, but that should be proof somewhat), then I might be in business ^_^
> The Recon3D uses the trapezoid-shaped mini-USB cord BTW, with really narrow short-sides that are almost rounded.
> 
> To the google!
> Edit: ah, yes, the Recon3D, my phone, my Mont Blanc, and my tablet all use Mini-A, but my FiiO E5 and travel wifi router use Mini-B. Nothing uses a noticeable ferrite shield chunk, though.


 
   
  No, the ODAC uses Mini-USB, which is what a lot of older devices used to have (like your typical TI-84 or TI-89 graphing calculator, the PSP, Sixaxis and DualShock 3 pads, and some older smartphones and cameras), but the Recon3D USB and most modern smartphones, among numerous other things, use Micro-USB, which is an even thinner port.
   
  Mini-USB Type B is similar in proportion to Mini-USB Type A (which I rattled off a bunch of devices that use it), but is keyed slightly differently so that it can only be plugged into devices that have USB host capability, like a TI graphing calculator. And since it's not Micro-USB, it's not really a USB On-The-Go cable, either...


----------



## Evshrug

I confess I looked at a female port on my Mont Blanc, instead of a cable. I was like "nyeeeeeh... Close enough "

Now, the world knows how many licks it takes to get to the center of the tootsie pop.


----------



## raband

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I confess I looked at a port instead of a cable, I was like "nyeeeeeh... Close enough
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  So.... male/female - close enough?
   
  Don't want to know what you were licking


----------



## Evshrug

9v batteries.


----------



## raband

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> 9v batteries.


 
244 of them?


----------



## Evshrug

I don't even have to click the link to know that's the ridiculous YouTube video that put licking batteries on my mind in the first place


----------



## raband

hehe - the only thing I thought of while watching the vid was "yeah, but did you lick them?"


----------



## DreamKing

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I literally couldn't tell apart Headphone and 2 Speakers modes on the X-Fi cards (either with Daniel_K X-Fi Support Pack 2.5 drivers or the Titanium HD's drivers) for music, no matter how hard I tried. Nor could I tell apart the Windows settings for Stereo and 5.1 Speakers with those same music sources. People kept saying there was a difference, and I really did try to find it, but I found absolutely nothing.
> 
> Fortunately for me, that makes things quite convenient when switching between games and music, as that just means I have to switch CMSS-3D Headphone on or off, respectively.


 
  That's good to know. I used to be able to tell the difference but that was most likely a driver issue because I can't tell the difference anymore. 
   
  By the way, should the slider for CMSS be put at 100% surround or left at 50%?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





dreamking said:


> That's good to know. I used to be able to tell the difference but that was most likely a driver issue because I can't tell the difference anymore.
> 
> By the way, should the slider for CMSS be put at 100% surround or left at 50%?


 
   
  What in the...there shouldn't be a slider at all! It should be either on or off, and the advanced options give you the MacroFX and Elevation Filter adjustments.
   
  This probably means that you aren't in Game Mode like you should be...or the device in question doesn't actually have Game Mode (very likely if it's USB), in which case I'd just leave it at 50%.


----------



## Evshrug

Aw, you beat me to it. I was totally going to indicate I was  awaiting your response. My Recon3D has a slider to adjust surround, maybe if his sound card has CMSS he's actually in Entertainment mode? That might explain if he's hearing less than a definite surround effect.

Btw, sorry for jabbering off topic.


----------



## Johnsonr520

I have a turtle beach dss. How do I get it to output in dolby digital if my mac doesn't have a digital output?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





johnsonr520 said:


> I have a turtle beach dss. How do I get it to output in Dolby Digital if my mac doesn't have a digital output?


 
  Maybe you can't?
   
  Why do you need to output Dolby Digital?


----------



## catspaw

* Special note for Amnesia: The Dark Descent; you need to do a bit of .ini file editing in order to use non-Generic Software OpenAL devices.
   
Can you explain this a bit more?
I love this game and if i can get better audio from it id love to (both speakers as in HP, using X-fi Titanium non-HD version).


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





catspaw said:


> * Special note for Amnesia: The Dark Descent; you need to do a bit of .ini file editing in order to use non-Generic Software OpenAL devices.
> 
> Can you explain this a bit more?
> I love this game and if i can get better audio from it id love to (both speakers as in HP, using X-fi Titanium non-HD version).


 
   
The basic instructions are here.
   
  However, I should mention a few important things:
   
  -This is an OpenAL-native game, so ALchemy isn't required. Neither is OpenAL Soft, if you're using an X-Fi card. I'm not sure why those directions were set up that way, as it looks like a bunch of unnecessary steps to me.
  -Thus, all you need to do is open the launcher so the list of OpenAL devices gets updated, check the hpl.log file for said list of OpenAL devices, and edit the main_settings.cfg with the device ID that equates to "*SB X-Fi Audio [0001]*".


----------



## Johnsonr520

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Maybe you can't?
> 
> Why do you need to output Dolby Digital?


 
  Okay well better question, can I use the surround sound capabilities of my turtle beach dss, while watching movies on my mac?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





johnsonr520 said:


> Okay well better question, can I use the surround sound capabilities of my turtle beach dss, while watching movies on my mac?


 
  Does you Mac even support Dolby Digital?
  (I'm not really knowledgeable about Macs).
   
  The Mac would need to have an optical output and DDL (Dolby Digital Live) to output Dolby Digital Surround Sound.


----------



## raband

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Does you Mac even support Dolby Digital?
> (I'm not really knowledgeable about Macs).
> 
> The Mac would need to have an optical output and DDL (Dolby Digital Live) to output Dolby Digital Surround Sound.


 
  My Macbook Pro does - optical out the headphone jack. (need the correct adapter)


----------



## Evshrug

johnsonr520 said:


> I have a turtle beach dss. How do I get it to output in dolby digital if my mac doesn't have a digital output?



Which Mac do you have? All my MacBook Pro's, for example, have a 3.5mm/optical out combo jack. If you look at your Mac's specs, it should tell you if you have optical out.

I was going to experiment, but the arrival of my Recon3D and death of the laptop's battery basically made it a moot point. I assume you would plug the DSS into the optical-out (note, it's not a Toslink port like on an Xbox), go to system settings, audio panel, select the optical out as the output, and then select the Dolby 5.1 audio track in your DVD movie. That _should[/] be all you have to do, but as I haven't tried it you may want to search "optical out" in OS X's Help program to see for sure._


----------



## Johnsonr520

Ok my system info says I have S/PDIF Optical Digital Audio Output. Does that mean I can get digital output from the headphone jack if I use a 3.5 to toslink adaptor?


----------



## NamelessPFG

If you get a mini-Toslink optical adapter, you can get S/PDIF output, yes.
   
  The only thing is, Macs don't have Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect to my knowledge, so they can't encode PCM surround sources into those on-the-fly.


----------



## raband

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> The only thing is, Macs don't have Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect to my knowledge, so they can't encode PCM surround sources into those on-the-fly.


 
   
  I think you're correct - I always booted into Windows on the Macbook for gaming and doing that allows DDL to work fine.


----------



## theeternal

Just a heads up, looks like a sale on the TiHD (109.99 + 5.94), most non-Amazon sellers don't ship to Australia but this is probably handy for US folks.
   
  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0041OUA38/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=
   
  Edit: Hadn't finished reading the whole thread when I saw this price on Amazon and didn't realise it was already on here.


----------



## Evshrug

Theeternal,
I posted it a while back, but that sale ended. So with this new one, I am once again sorely tempted to get a great price on a great card before it gets EOL'ed for the ZxR. C'mon Starbucks, call me back


----------



## theeternal

Good to know I'm not making a mess out of a quality thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  So if you order direct from J&R and join their mailing list you can save the shipping. I've also discovered that Amazon has a history of price matching other suppliers and they do ship internationally for anyone outside the US after one.
   
  http://camelcamelcamel.com/Creative-Blaster-Titanium-Internal-SB1270/product/B0041OUA38


----------



## apav

Hey guys, under Envy's advice, I'm here in search of a sound card for my Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250 Ohms. Main uses are for gaming and electronic music, with an occasional movie here or there. Heard these things are hard to drive. Looking for a sound card that can power this headphone to really make it shine and has a line out for virtual surround sound (Dolby Headphones are the recommended way to go I think?). 
   
  That or I will just grab a $50 Asus Xonar sound card and a cheap yet good amp capable of powering it. Whichever way is cheaper, please let me know! Thanks so much!


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





apav said:


> Hey guys, under Envy's advice, I'm here in search of a sound card for my Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 250 Ohms. Main uses are for gaming and electronic music, with an occasional movie here or there. Heard these things are hard to drive. Looking for a sound card that can power this headphone to really make it shine and has a line out for virtual surround sound (Dolby Headphones are the recommended way to go I think?).
> 
> That or I will just grab a $50 Asus Xonar sound card and a cheap yet good amp capable of powering it. Whichever way is cheaper, please let me know! Thanks so much!


 
  Creative Labs Sound blaster Z or Zx


----------



## Evshrug

Dolby Headphone is Mad's favorite surround processing, but it may not be yours. Aside from taste, DH has limitations compared to the full capabilities of a PC sound system, most notably everything sounds like it's on the same floor as you. All of creative's cards have surround processing (that can be customized much more) that can allow sounds to "come from" the sky above you or downstairs, and other additional effects.

The Creative Soundblaster Z-series have more powerful amps than an Asus Zonar DG, perhaps on or near the power of the FiiO E9 and Asus Xonar Essence STX soundcard. If I were you, I'd compare the mW output of all three of those before making the purchase.


----------



## apav

Thanks! I'll look into that. So for driving the headphones, the two routes I am debating going are:
   
  1.) A good sound card capable of amplifying these headphones, like the STX or Soundblaster Z.
  2.) An entry level sound card (like the Xonar DG) and portable amp (like the FiiO E9, E10, E11). Correct me if those amps aren't powerful enough. 
   
  So out of these two methods, which one will end up being cheaper and which one will produce better sound quality? I'm leaning more towards option 1 because I fear there might not be a notable difference in sound quality (besides surround) between a cheap entry level sound card and my P8Z68-V's onboard audio.
   
  Sorry for the noobish questions, just stepped into the audio world very recently  
   
  Edit: It's official. Snatched a DT 990 Pro off ebay with a CAD HA4 amp for $180!!


----------



## roguegeek

I am currently running the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD with the Audio Technica ATH-AD700 cans and AntLion ModMic. The combination has been great, but it turns out I'm a greedy person who's completely drunk on power and wants more. Would like to put an amp between them and was thinking the FiiO E09K is the way to go. My thought is I want to pick something that is going to be somewhat future proof in case I decide to step up to something like the AKG K701 can. Would like to hear some feedback from everyone. Is the E09K the right way to go? Is there something else you'd recommend?
   
  Also, kind of a separate question, what's the point of the adding the E07K or E17 to the E09K?
   
  Thanks!


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





roguegeek said:


> I am currently running the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD with the Audio Technica ATH-AD700 cans and AntLion ModMic. The combination has been great, but it turns out I'm a greedy person who's completely drunk on power and wants more. Would like to put an amp between them and was thinking the FiiO E09K is the way to go. My thought is I want to pick something that is going to be somewhat future proof in case I decide to step up to something like the AKG K701 can. Would like to hear some feedback from everyone. Is the E09K the right way to go? Is there something else you'd recommend?
> Also, kind of a separate question, what's the point of the adding the E07K or E17 to the E09K?


 
  I believe the Schiit Magni headphone amplifier, which has a much lower headphone output impedance, then the E9/E09K, would work better with the 32-Ohm ATH-AD700.
   
  Adding (mounting) the E07K or E17 to the E09K allows the E09K to use the E07K/E17 DAC feature.


----------



## roguegeek

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> I believe the Schiit Magni headphone amplifier, which has a much lower headphone output impedance, then the E9/E09K, would work better with the 32-Ohm ATH-AD700.
> 
> Adding (mounting) the E07K or E17 to the E09K allows the E09K to use the E07K/E17 DAC feature.


 
  So pairing amp to a system is dependent on the impedance of the headphones? Hmm, I'm a bit confused and it really starts with my lack of understanding what basic specifications mean I think. If anyone can point me in the right direction, that would be helpful.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





roguegeek said:


> So pairing amp to a system is dependent on the impedance of the headphones? Hmm, I'm a bit confused and it really starts with my lack of understanding what basic specifications mean I think. If anyone can point me in the right direction, that would be helpful.


 
  Basically, It's preferred to have the impedance (Ohms) of the headphones to have 8 times (or more) the impedance of whatever jack they are plugged into.
  But, I can plug 50-Ohm headphones into a headphone output jack with 10-Ohms and everything sounds fine
  (Others on this forum can explain this stuff in more detail on this subject).


----------



## genclaymore

Then some headphones are picky with the source's Amp ic and design just as well with the design of different external amps.


----------



## StudioSound

Not sure if this is the right topic… so I have been using headphones with my PC for gaming and films (PC is hooked up to my TV) but I think I want to step up to virtual surround. 

I *need* to use HDMI, but I seem to remember reading that you can still add a soundcard for 3D audio processing, and have it output via another device. (Output must be stereo LPCM via HDMI) Is that correct?

If so, then the sound card DAC quality etc. doesn’t matter at all, only the options available. 

Is there any one card I can buy to get all the current options? If not, what is the best choice? From listening to some demo videos, it seems like Dolby Headphone just creates a flat 2D sound field and adds a ton of reverb on everything.


----------



## Evshrug

StudioSound,
There is not one card with all virtual surround options included, many of the different surround processing methods are proprietary to a particular manufacturer. I have a write-up explaining different sound processing methods, here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/646786/evshrugs-if-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now-discussion-journal#post_9067400

Secondly, you can send video out through HDMI and send audio through a separate connection. That's what I did for my Xbox, and it's even easier with a PC. Creative sells the soundcards with 3D virtual surround, if there are 3D positional cues available in the source material. If you can catch Creative's X-Fi Titanium HD on sale for around $110, that card has the most compatibility – for old and new games – but for mostly new games (and movies of course) the newer Creative Z-series cards (Z, Zx, ZxR) are also supposed to be worth consideration and have upgraded amping capability.


----------



## StudioSound

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> StudioSound,
> There is not one card with all virtual surround options included, many of the different surround processing methods are proprietary to a particular manufacturer. I have a write-up explaining different sound processing methods, here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/646786/evshrugs-if-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now-discussion-journal#post_9067400
> 
> Secondly, you can send video out through HDMI and send audio through a separate connection. That's what I did for my Xbox, and it's even easier with a PC. Creative sells the soundcards with 3D virtual surround, if there are 3D positional cues available in the source material. If you can catch Creative's X-Fi Titanium HD on sale for around $110, that card has the most compatibility – for old and new games – but for mostly new games (and movies of course) the newer Creative Z-series cards (Z, Zx, ZxR) are also supposed to be worth consideration and have upgraded amping capability.


 
   
  So is the best card to go with the X-Fi Titanium HD, as it looks like it supports CMSS-3D (3D surround) and THX TruStudio Pro? (2D surround)

 It seems most other cards will only support one of the other formats, and CMSS-3D has been dropped from newer Creative cards. I wish I could just pay a license fee, as it's all done in software now anyway, right?
   
   
  I need HDMI for a couple of reasons:

 I don't want to run another 50ft of cable through the walls - especially not unbalanced analogue audio.
 If I don't go through HDMI, the sound is out of sync with my TV. (and the latency is variable, even if there were a way to delay the audio)


----------



## Evshrug

Variable? Gee... dunno what the ideal solution is, guess you'll just have to work on that one.

And yeah, I think THX is limited to 2D in the Ti HD. Remember movies will mostly be just 2D surround source material anyway. I wish I could just hear proper demos of all the different processing algorithms, and buy just the one that works best for me!


----------



## chewy4

I think HDMI could be problematic. I mean I've heard Nameless say you can pass the DSP effects through USB and it would work, but he said it had a big negative impact on the sound quality. Also, considering you would be running the HDMI from your graphics card, it might not even be possible.


----------



## whiskaz

Quote: 





studiosound said:


> So is the best card to go with the X-Fi Titanium HD, as it looks like it supports CMSS-3D (3D surround) and THX TruStudio Pro? (2D surround)
> 
> It seems most other cards will only support one of the other formats, and CMSS-3D has been dropped from newer Creative cards. I wish I could just pay a license fee, as it's all done in software now anyway, right?
> 
> ...


 

 I'm not sure if there's any soundcard on the market right now with HDMI. It seems as though they've gone by the wayside. I'm in a similar boat- the PC is far away from my TV and in a closet and I want simulated surround sound on my Headphones (mainly for movies, not games).

 What do you currently have your headphones connected to? The PC? A receiver?

 I actually run HDMI out of my video card, with audio, to my den's receiver. I run the other HDMI out to a bedroom TV - the receiver in there doesn't have HDMI so I run optical out of the onboard sound. I do not experience latency.

 Depending on how you intend to hook up your headphones, you wouldn't necessarily be running analogue cables. You could potentially run optical or coax out.
   
  Note: I'm using an nvidia card (forget the exact model at the moment) and as far as passing along DSP effects - it works fine for movies/music using J River Media Center and various VSTs. Effects applied in other software also pass along fine. Obviously if you get a sound card with built in DSP like CMSS-3D or the like, I'm not sure how you would get it to take effect on your video card's hdmi/audio out. I don't think it works that way  Test driving a Xonar DG in the same box and I have to use one of its various audio outs to get the dolby headphone processing.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> Then some headphones are picky with the source's Amp ic and design just as well with the design of different external amps.


 
  I guess you could say low Ohm (quality) headphones can be more picky.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> I guess you could say low Ohm (quality) headphones can be more picky.


 

 yea I mention that because of the AKG K702's that I had, that gave me the amp run around and drove me up a wall. Trying to find a amp which they wasn't picky with that was a good match with them. that I could afford at the time.I fixed that problem by selling the K702 off and use the external amp I had at the time with the DT880 pro-250s.


----------



## Evshrug

purpleangel said:


> I guess you could say low Ohm (quality) headphones can be more picky.




Yes, getting enough current without making the volume too loud. Thing is though, if current = voltage/resistance (if I got that correct), and if the resistance is a constant (and resistance = the headphone's impedance), then... Is it actually possible to change the ratio of current to volume output? I dunno, I read a bunch of Wikipedia electrician stuff a day or two and it just made me more confused. How does current affect sound again?


----------



## Pyrocles

I'm a long-time X-Fi Titanium HD/headphone gamer and I have a fairly simple non-gaming question to ask. I'm trying to get my headphones and X-Fi Titanium HD sound card properly set up for movie watching with PowerDVD, and noticed something seemingly unusual:

 If I set my Windows 7 speaker configuration to 5.1 Surround and then run the speaker test, I can hear all 5.1 test sounds through my 2-channel stereo headphones (plugged into the headphone output on the rear of the sound card). Is this normal? Shouldn't I only be able to hear the front Right and Left channels? Could this mess up movie and game sound positioning?

 Keep in mind that the CMSS-3D and THX TruStudio Pro Surround features are turned OFF in their respective operating modes. I want to ensure everything is setup correctly before I apply THX TruStudio Pro to virtualize PowerDVD's outputted surround sound.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





pyrocles said:


> I'm a long-time X-Fi Titanium HD/headphone gamer and I have a fairly simple non-gaming question to ask. I'm trying to get my headphones and X-Fi Titanium HD sound card properly set up for movie watching with PowerDVD, and noticed something seemingly unusual:
> 
> If I set my Windows 7 speaker configuration to 5.1 Surround and then run the speaker test, I can hear all 5.1 test sounds through my 2-channel stereo headphones (plugged into the headphone output on the rear of the sound card). Is this normal? Shouldn't I only be able to hear the front Right and Left channels? Could this mess up movie and game sound positioning?
> 
> Keep in mind that the CMSS-3D and THX TruStudio Pro Surround features are turned OFF in their respective operating modes. I want to ensure everything is setup correctly before I apply THX TruStudio Pro to virtualize PowerDVD's outputted surround sound.


 
  It's supposed to be like that.


----------



## Pyrocles

You should be able to hear all 5.1 channels through stereo headphones without CMSS active?
   
  Good; at least it's normal, then. Thanks!


----------



## lennyr

Late to this reply, but in case you haven't done anything yet;  I have AD700s with a ModMic.  It's a great setup.  I also have the Schiit Magni that was recommended further down the thread. It is also terrific.  However, there is absolutely zero benefit to using it with the AD700s.  I have the Magni for my HD650s and Q701s.  The AD700 is a low impedance / very high sensitivity headphone that can be driven well by any source (amp-wise).  You would just be wasting your money.  If you've got a hundred dollars burning a hole in your pocket, sell the AD700s, don't get the Magni, and get the new AD900X for a few dollars more than the net.


----------



## StudioSound

Quote: 





whiskaz said:


> I'm not sure if there's any soundcard on the market right now with HDMI. It seems as though they've gone by the wayside. I'm in a similar boat- the PC is far away from my TV and in a closet and I want simulated surround sound on my Headphones (mainly for movies, not games).
> 
> What do you currently have your headphones connected to? The PC? A receiver?
> 
> ...


 
   
  I wouldn't expect there to be a soundcard with HDMI out. I think ASUS used to do one which had an HDMI loopback connection but that's not really what I'm looking for - I just want to be able to use CMSS-3D, THX TruStudio etc. and pass that over my video card's HDMI output to my TV.
   
  It sounds like that is not going to be possible though.
   
  Optical might have worked, but I don't think my TV can use an optical audio input with HDMI. Audio has to be passed through the TV, because that automatically adjusts delays to keep it in sync. I currently just hook up my headphones to the TV's headphone amplifier (it's a high end set so the headphone output is decent) but I have the option of running Optical or Analogue cables out of the TV to an external DAC/Amp too.
   
  I did purchase Rapture3D which seems to work very well in supported games, but that list is smaller than I expected - it just makes me want 3D surround even more now.


----------



## whiskaz

Quote: 





studiosound said:


> I wouldn't expect there to be a soundcard with HDMI out. I think ASUS used to do one which had an HDMI loopback connection but that's not really what I'm looking for - I just want to be able to use CMSS-3D, THX TruStudio etc. and pass that over my video card's HDMI output to my TV.
> 
> It sounds like that is not going to be possible though.
> 
> ...


 
  Ah, gotcha. You might consider testing an HDMI connection to the TV (for video) and optical/coax out (from the PC, not the TV) to a headphone amp for your audio. I have never had a problem with audio being out of sync and I run HDMI to a receiver and from the receiver to the TV but I have also used HDMI to the receiver and out to the TV for video only, outputting sound from a Xonar DG's optical out (to a Fiio E17). Everything was in sync.

 What TV is it? While I haven't gamed on my PC to my TV, I watch a lot of movies with this setup and syncing audio/video has never been a problem.


----------



## StudioSound

Quote: 





whiskaz said:


> Ah, gotcha. You might consider testing an HDMI connection to the TV (for video) and optical/coax out (from the PC, not the TV) to a headphone amp for your audio. I have never had a problem with audio being out of sync and I run HDMI to a receiver and from the receiver to the TV but I have also used HDMI to the receiver and out to the TV for video only, outputting sound from a Xonar DG's optical out (to a Fiio E17). Everything was in sync.
> 
> What TV is it? While I haven't gamed on my PC to my TV, I watch a lot of movies with this setup and syncing audio/video has never been a problem.


 
   
  It's a Sony HX900. Most televisions on the market have _at least_ 60ms latency. This one has 30ms latency in game mode, and around 100ms in film mode.
  Audio is noticeably out of sync if I just run audio out to another device without passing it through the TV - but I am very sensitive to sync errors. Most people don't seem to notice.
   
  The only other option is to buy a large HT receiver which I don't really have the space for, or particularly want. Anything with HDMI 1.3 or newer should be able to get lip-sync correction data from the TV. That said, I don't know how that works in practice - I know from measuring it, that the TV does in fact switch the audio delay depending on whether it is in the game or film modes. I don't know if HDMI lip-sync correction can be dynamically adjusted like that, or if it is simply a fixed offset that is sent when handshaking with the TV.
   
  The only headphone amplifier I am aware of that even has a HDMI connector on it, is the Smyth Realiser A8 and I don't know whether that supports the lip-sync correction spec, or even what version of HDMI it uses.


----------



## Evshrug

Theories:
Soundcard SHOULD be able to process the sound, send the digital signal back through the motherboard over to the graphics card with HDMI out, at least with graphics cards made since they worked out how to send audio through a card's HDMI without using wired HD audio connectors from the motherboard.

For older graphics cards that DO require the same front-panel "HD audio" connectors as a work around to add audio to the HDMI output, you could bridge the cards instead of sending the audio out to the front panel.

I don't actually know if this works, but I thought of these theories because I remembered in my NVIDIA GeForce GTS250 card that they included instructions on how to work around the problem of supplying audio to the HDMI connection. I feel like Nameless can say if my theories are valid and provide a solution once he isn't so busy working long hours, but if you like I can dig out my graphics card's manual and look up their audio directions for you. Better act fast though, because as of Monday, *I'LL* be working full time too ^_^


----------



## whiskaz

So I have a gt440...capable of sending audio on its own... and a Xonar DG as well. You're saying I *should* be able to turn DH on with the Xonar and send that over the 440 somehow? Or am I misunderstanding?


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah, that was my first theory. I don't know how to do it exactly though... Worst case, you could send the 5.1 channels with sync correction through HDMI to the TV, and then (instead of a Xonar DG) you could do the headphone processing _after_ the TV by using the TV's optical-out audio return channel (most TV's with HDMI have this so broadcast TV can send audio back to a receiver) to hook up a Recon3D USB. That would be very simple to get up and working, plus you'd have an external PC DAC that you could use "portably" with different consoles or PCs. Maybe not the most integrated approach, but easy-enough to put it out of sight.

I guess that's theory 3, and the only one I'm 99% sure would work (against the 1% chance your TV doesn't have an optical-out).

Edit: oh wait, you're saying you already own a Xonar DG? Well... try to figure out theory 1 first.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





pyrocles said:


> You should be able to hear all 5.1 channels through stereo headphones without CMSS active?
> 
> Good; at least it's normal, then. Thanks!


 
   
  Yep, it's normal if the X-Fi card is configured properly. Rear left/right have no spatialization applied to make them distinct from front left/right if you have CMSS-3D Headphone off, though.
   
  Quote: 





whiskaz said:


> So I have a gt440...capable of sending audio on its own... and a Xonar DG as well. You're saying I *should* be able to turn DH on with the Xonar and send that over the 440 somehow? Or am I misunderstanding?


 
   
  If the Xonar DG is worth its price, it should have a Stereo Mix input under the Recording tab. This is what you need (along with Windows 7/8) to use the SniperCzar trick, normally mentioned for USB audio devices:
   
  -Make sure your sound card's analog output is set as the default output device. This is very important.
  -Go into the Properties for your card's Stereo Mix/"What U Hear" input, under the Recording tab.
  -Open the Listen tab.
  -Check "Listen to this device", and set the drop down box below to whatever output device you really want to use, be it HDMI audio, a USB DAC, or anything else that's more or less its own sound card.
   
  This may or may not cause a hit in audio quality. I'm a bit confused on the issue myself right now; the Recon3D USB and Live! 24-bit External had a noticeable downgrade that even non-audiophiles would notice, but the ODAC didn't. However, it may be problematic if you need to use the mic input at the same time. I had issues using Skype when testing the ODAC because of that.


----------



## Heretic817

Quote: 





th3beh0lder said:


> I finally ordered a headphone set-up. AKG Q-701 Green(couldn't resist them
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  Enjoy. That is what I currently use and I am very happy. 
   
  My only minor gripe is that I wish the Q701's could sound as good as they do but be a bit more "open" like others that I have tried. All in all though I think it is a great all around setup for Music, Movies and Games.


----------



## Evshrug

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Yep, it's normal if the X-Fi card is configured properly. Rear left/right have no spatialization applied to make them distinct from front left/right if you have CMSS-3D Headphone off, though.
> 
> 
> If the Xonar DG is worth its price, it should have a Stereo Mix input under the Recording tab. This is what you need (along with Windows 7/8) to use the SniperCzar trick, normally mentioned for USB audio devices:
> ...


 
  Thanks, I asked at a local computer shop that I've been trying to work for about this, they didn't know for sure how to do it either, though we both thought it should be possible. The manager also was impressed at my persistence (not annoyed), and offered to be a reference for other employment. LOL!
   
  Now, if only I could combine What U Hear + Video recording...


----------



## pric0

hey guys, i bought the x-fi Titanium (non-hd) 7.1
  and its fantastic, but i have some problems to set it up, the first one is the microphone doenst work, where should i jack it (i know it should be on the last blue jack) but it still doesnt work, any suggestions?
  besides, should i delete the motherboards built-in soundcard drivers?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





pric0 said:


> Hey guys, i bought the x-fi Titanium (non-hd) 7.1
> and its fantastic, but i have some problems to set it up, the first one is the microphone doesn't work, where should i jack it (i know it should be on the last blue jack) but it still doesn't work, any suggestions?
> Besides, should I delete the motherboards built-in sound card drivers?


 
  You should at least disable the on-board audio (in the BIOs).
  I would also delete the on-board audio's software, but it's more of an option, not a necessity.


----------



## roguegeek

I think I got a stupid question here, but I've heard there's no such thing as a stupid question. Right guys? Right?
   
  Anyway, I have an X-Fi Titanium HD with an AD700 hooked up to it. Will be moving onto the AKG K702 that will be amped by a FiiO E09K. My questions is do I hook the amp up to the sound card by way of the headphone jack or should it now hook up to the RCA connections on the sound card?


----------



## raband

Quote: 





roguegeek said:


> I think I got a stupid question here, but I've heard there's no such thing as a stupid question. Right guys? Right?
> 
> Anyway, I have an X-Fi Titanium HD with an AD700 hooked up to it. Will be moving onto the AKG K702 that will be amped by a FiiO E09K. My questions is do I hook the amp up to the sound card by way of the headphone jack or should it now hook up to the RCA connections on the sound card?


 
  I've got mine hooked up to the amp via RCA to 3.5mm cable.
  (the amp only has a 3.5mm input - if it had RCA inputs I'd use them)
   
  (X-Fi->RCA/3.5mm->O2amp)


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





roguegeek said:


> I think I got a stupid question here, but I've heard there's no such thing as a stupid question. Right guys? Right?
> 
> Anyway, I have an X-Fi Titanium HD with an AD700 hooked up to it. Will be moving onto the AKG K702 that will be amped by a FiiO E09K. My questions is do I hook the amp up to the sound card by way of the headphone jack or should it now hook up to the RCA connections on the sound card?


 
  The Ti-HD's (Titanium HD) RCA output should provide a slightly cleaner analog audio signal, then the Ti-HD's headphone jack, when connecting the Ti-HD to an external headphone amplifier.


----------



## roguegeek

Quote: 





raband said:


> I've got mine hooked up to the amp via RCA to 3.5mm cable.
> (the amp only has a 3.5mm input - if it had RCA inputs I'd use them)
> 
> (X-Fi->RCA/3.5mm->O2amp)


 
I don't think that's right. The E09K definitely has RCA line in. I think you may be talking about the previous E9 model.
   
  Edit: I'm an idiot. You're just saying you use the RCA output on your card and you have to hook up to your O2 because the line in is 3.5mm. Gotcha.


----------



## Ban13

After owning Titanium HD and AKG Q701 for some time now I can confirm the superb positional audio of Battlefield 2. It truly sounds like real life, real 3D sound not limited to 6 or 8 channels. It amazes me every time. It's gotten so good I can just sit in a bush and shoot people without ever seeing them. It really is like a wall-hack but with sound.


----------



## roguegeek

Quote: 





ban13 said:


> After owning Titanium HD and AKG Q701 for some time now I can confirm the superb positional audio of Battlefield 2. It truly sounds like real life, real 3D sound not limited to 6 or 8 channels. It amazes me every time. It's gotten so good I can just sit in a bush and shoot people without ever seeing them. It really is like a wall-hack but with sound.


 
  Sold! Very competitive BF3'er here, although I'll be going with the K702 which is the same thing.


----------



## pric0

just bought the Samson SR850, using it with the X-Fi Titanium 7.1
  and ill tell you one thing is for certain..
  i have a lot of experience in competitive fps, and there is nothing better for it than STEREO!
  no 5.1 no 7.1 or any other dolby ****.
  the only way my ears can decide where some noise came from is Stereo.. maybe im used to it but  when you look at it in a logical perspective: WE CANT HEAR 7.1 FROM HEADPHONES.
  unless we had ears around our entire head.
  we have right and left. and that's how we naturally decide.
  SO **** WITH THAT ********, makes people waste money for nothing.
   
  sorry for lots of caps, but i had to make my point


----------



## David164v8

Hey, I'm about to buy a Titanium HD. From reading through this thread, this card is still the best for gaming? I was thinking of an Esscense ST/STX, but the I think the Titanium HD is nearly as good. Any advice before I buy this? Does the surround sound work well with Valve games? And does it affect Skype? (Dolby Headphone on my DG ruined the sound of Skype completely) Also, will I have any driver problems? I'm on Windows 8 64-Bit.



Thanks


----------



## roguegeek

Quote: 





david164v8 said:


> Hey, I'm about to buy a Titanium HD. From reading through this thread, this card is still the best for gaming? I was thinking of an Esscense ST/STX, but the I think the Titanium HD is nearly as good. Any advice before I buy this? Does the surround sound work well with Valve games? And does it affect Skype? (Dolby Headphone on my DG ruined the sound of Skype completely) Also, will I have any driver problems? I'm on Windows 8 64-Bit.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks


 
  My understanding at this point is it's mostly a difference of whether you want to process your sound using CMSS-3D or Dolby Headphone and whether or not you want proper compatibility with older games or not. If you like CMSS-3D and want to ensure compatibility with older games, the X-Fi Titanium HD is for you. If you like Dolby Headphone, pick up the Xonar STX. I didn't care about being compatible with older games, but I still tried both before deciding I preferred CMSS-3D. Went with the Titanium HD and couldn't be happier. There's no right or wrong here. It's just a personal decision based on your tastes.


----------



## raband

Quote: 





pric0 said:


> just bought the Samson SR850, using it with the X-Fi Titanium 7.1
> and ill tell you one thing is for certain..
> i have a lot of experience in competitive fps, and there is nothing better for it than STEREO!
> no 5.1 no 7.1 or any other dolby ****.
> ...


 
  Have a listen to tracks 20 and 21 here https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=catalogdetail&valbum_code=HX090368035561 (just in straight stereo through your headphones - no effects/processing etc from your card)
   
  Can you hear the voices position being anywhere other than exactly left or right? Everybody else I've had listen to the tracks has.
   
  That's the same effect that everyone else gets from the card you have with it converting a surround signal to stereo headphones.
   
  If you get the effect from the tracks above and would like similar accuracy when playing games, watching movies etc then we might be able to help you set your system up properly.
   
  If you can't hear anything other than a left/right sound in the above track then I'm afraid theres something about you individually that is different from 99% of everyone else.
   
  If you can hear the position in the tracks, but would still rather just use stereo then that's fine and up to you, but the positional audio is real for everyone else and not a waste of money.
   
  edit: those tracks were recorded binaurally - with 2 microphones - one where each ear would be. That way, when the audio is played back each ear hears what it would have heard in real life - more sound from the ear that the noise is coming from and slightly less from the other ear. That's how our brains process the sounds we hear to work out position and distances in real life. What the soundcards etc do is take a surround audio signal and do the same sort of processing. With the right signal being fed to the processor the right processor it actually can be a lot more accurate and precise than 5.1/7.1 etc - it can give our brains the true amount of sound to each ear to let the brain process it as real, spacial audio.
   
  If you're not getting that effect at all and are still only hearing stereo (or the positioning is all muddled) then it's more likely that a few settings in windows or on the card need to be adjusted. If you are hearing the positional cues, but still rather the stereo sound imaging then that's fine - personal preference, but there are 89 pages of discussion on this thread alone from people who have got it set up and working and wouldn't swap it for the world.


----------



## StudioSound

pric0 said:


> just bought the Samson SR850, using it with the X-Fi Titanium 7.1
> and ill tell you one thing is for certain..
> i have a lot of experience in competitive fps, and there is nothing better for it than STEREO!
> no 5.1 no 7.1 or any other dolby ****.
> ...


You're getting things mixed up. It's true that we only have two ears, so you should only need stereo audio for fully realistic sound.

But unless the game engine is rendering 3D binaural sound designed for headphones (most do not) you will have poor positional cues, and you will likely have audio pan hard from left-to-right in a completely unnatural way if you are only using stereo sound.

If the game engine renders 5.1/7.1 surround though, the right soundcard can take that positional data, and process it into a binaural stereo signal designed for headphone listening, giving you considerably better positioning and a more realistic sound field.

The best thing would be for the game engine itself to render 3D audio designed for headphones itself, as that would provide even better positioning than 7.1 (7.1 audio produces a flat sound field in a ring around you, and doesn't account for height) but most games now seem to be moving away from 3D audio and towards 5.1/7.1 for home theater setups these days due to the popularity of games consoles with cheap HTIB setups.


----------



## Evshrug

Raband, StudioSound,
You guys could've just pointed pric0 to my article on virtual surround  The proof is in the pudding: the science is explained AND there are a few demos to try it out, switching from stereo to virtual surround. He (and anyone else) can see for himself.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/646786/evshrugs-if-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now-discussion-journal#post_9067400

If I remember correctly, however, this pric0 was in Mad's thread like 8 months ago saying the same stuff he is now. I think he is either one of the unfortunate who can't hear virtual surround, or he just doesn't want to believe. IMO he can say whatever he likes, since the science is proven and demonstrable, and since he won't convince others by poor writing and swearing anyway.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





david164v8 said:


> Hey, I'm about to buy a Titanium HD. From reading through this thread, this card is still the best for gaming? I was thinking of an Esscense ST/STX, but the I think the Titanium HD is nearly as good. Any advice before I buy this? Does the surround sound work well with Valve games? And does it affect Skype? (Dolby Headphone on my DG ruined the sound of Skype completely) Also, will I have any driver problems? I'm on Windows 8 64-Bit.


 
  The Titanium HD's headphone output jack has an impedance of 35-Ohms .
  So depending on the headphones used, adding an external headphone amplifier might be advisable


----------



## Evshrug

Any idea on the output impedance of the STX and the new Creative Z and ZxR?


----------



## pric0

thanks for the replies fellas..
  ill try to answer as much as possible:
   
  @raband - i do hear and can decide clearly which side the voice is coming from in these tracks, using stereo.
  @the - my headphones themselves are stereo, either i cant set this up well or it isnt possible.
  @evshrug - it wasnt 8 months ago lol, and as weird as it may sound, in the vid you posted here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dcB9faNrz_M#!
  i hear better when the cmss3d is off (according to the vid).
  when it's on, it sounds blury and i cant pinpoint the location, but when its not on, i know exactly where the grenade exploded or the footsteps came from.
  usually when i play i turn my mouse with the player facing to the side of the noise, so ill hear exactly where it came from (left or right),
  it's kind of a disadvantage, that's why i wanted to upgrade, though it doesnt help much.
   
  overall, i tested it around, and i just cant tell where shots or footsteps come from when it's not on stereo.. maybe it's just me.
  it's not that i cant hear well, before my buyings, i used a 5.4$ headset (im not kidding, silverlines headset), and it was all fine and.
  i just dont feel like the headphones+ the soundcard i bought contributed to my gaming needs (but i dont regret my purchases, cause the sound card is awesome for music and and flac/wav files in particualr, and the same for the headphones which are great aswell)/
  just need to up my game a bit, and to maybe hear footsteps from bigger distances, which didnt do the trick, and as i mentioned before - stereo is good cause i actually feel like a little bump in the right/left side whenever a sound comes from that particular sound WHEN I USE STEREO. not when i use surround - which i cant decide where the hell the sound came from.
   
  not blaming anyone so dont crucify me here


----------



## raband

pric0 said:


> @raband - i do hear and can decide clearly which side the voice is coming from in these tracks, using stereo.
> 
> not blaming anyone so dont crucify me here


 
  You should be able to hear more than which side - it should sound as if he's right behind you, whispering in you ear - the effect is so strong on these tracks it makes the hairs stand up on my neck. If you're not getting that then I'm afraid there may be something different with your hearing.
   
  You are pretty much blaming everyone here saying that it's impossible to hear surround through stereo headphones and telling them to stop costing people money on equipment that doesn't work.
   
  You are totally wrong - it does work - we can hear surround through the stereo equipment we have. You should change your original post from 
  "we can't hear" to "I (meaning you) can't hear"
  and
  "it doesn't work - it's impossible etc" to "it doesn't work for me"


----------



## pric0

the thing is, im pretty sure my hearing is fine, but what im not sure, is about how ive setup the sound system.
  since when i check the sound through the creative console: http://i.imgur.com/dCfVKcB.png
  i can hear a sound only when the bar is on the top left and the top right speaker sign.
  it's the same for any sound setting (2/4/5/7).
   
  what could possibly be wrong? or should it be that way?


----------



## raband

Quote: 





pric0 said:


> what could possibly be wrong? or should it be that way?


 
  You've got your headphones plugged into a potato instead of the headphone jack.
   
  Seriously though - if that's happening there was a link somewhere that outlines how t setup the computer, soundcard and games for the proper audio, hopefully someone can post a link.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





david164v8 said:


> Hey, I'm about to buy a Titanium HD. From reading through this thread, this card is still the best for gaming? I was thinking of an Esscense ST/STX, but the I think the Titanium HD is nearly as good. Any advice before I buy this? Does the surround sound work well with Valve games? And does it affect Skype? (Dolby Headphone on my DG ruined the sound of Skype completely) Also, will I have any driver problems? I'm on Windows 8 64-Bit.


 
   
  I'd still say it's the best for gaming overall, maybe save for the Onkyo SE-300PCIE or the Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD (the latter only if you need HDMI output).
   
  For Valve games, you generally want to point ALchemy to the game's root directory, and enter "snd_legacy_surround 1" in the console.
   
  It'll affect Skype or anything else that produces sound, but neither CMSS-3D Headphone nor Dolby Headphone utterly ruins Skype or other VoIP apps for me while I'm gaming.
   
  I don't recall having any driver issues with the Win8 Release Preview, but the final version may be different for all I know.
   
  Quote: 





pric0 said:


> the thing is, im pretty sure my hearing is fine, but what im not sure, is about how ive setup the sound system.
> since when i check the sound through the creative console: http://i.imgur.com/dCfVKcB.png
> i can hear a sound only when the bar is on the top left and the top right speaker sign.
> it's the same for any sound setting (2/4/5/7).
> ...


 
   
  No, something is DEFINITELY wrong if you can only hear the front left/right channels.
   
  For that matter, you should be seeing an image resembling headphones on a head outline in the X-Fi Console Launcher, as that's what you get when you've set the X-Fi to Headphones. You do your speaker tests in the Windows sound control panel, NOT the X-Fi Console Launcher or Control Panel. There, it's quite easy to tell that the surround channels do play through the headphones, regardless of the CMSS-3D setting.
   
Read this guide to understand what I'm getting at here. Make sure you scroll all the way down for the relevant picture if it's a real X-Fi card with Game Mode, as that's what you want to be using if possible.


----------



## pric0

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I'd still say it's the best for gaming overall, maybe save for the Onkyo SE-300PCIE or the Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD (the latter only if you need HDMI output).
> 
> For Valve games, you generally want to point ALchemy to the game's root directory, and enter "snd_legacy_surround 1" in the console.
> 
> ...


 
  is there possibility the card is corrupted or fake? cause i dont get the 7 channels nor quad or 5, only 2. and yes, i tested it exactly as this guide that you've shown, same effects as with the console launcher.. i think im going to cramp this card way up this store's butthole.
   
  one mention.. when i tested the 7 channels on the windows configuration, it showed the bar going up on each channel but didnt have any noise (except for the stereo channels).
   
  btw, i deactivated the built-in motherboard audio so it wont collide with the sound card, can it harm this feature (i know this sounds silly but... i dont know what im actually doing).
   
  Edit: i think i somehow managed to activate full 7.1
  ive put the "Headphone" option in the console launcher,
  and activated the 7.1 in the windows sound configuration


----------



## TwelveTrains

Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> I rewrote the steps into an actual guide. Crosspost from the MLE thread:
> 
> Here's how to do the handoff of CMSS processed output *completely in software*:
> 
> ...


 
  What does this do exactly? What does using a sound as a DSP to output to any audio device mean in noob terms? Sorry I'm really new to some things.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





twelvetrains said:


> What does this do exactly? What does using a sound as a DSP to output to any audio device mean in noob terms? Sorry I'm really new to some things.


 
  It means you can use stuff like CMSS-3D with an external DAC.
   
   
  So I was wondering... How do I enable EAX with my Titanium HD? I recently started playing KOTOR, and it says EAX is disabled in the audio options menu. I believe it's the same deal with ThiefS. I have it on game mode with CMSS-3D enabled.


----------



## genclaymore

You have to use Alchemy for older game titles that are Direct sound based, when your under vista/7/8. When you do, you beable to re-enable EAX in those games.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> You have to use Alchemy for older game titles that are Direct sound based, when your under vista/7/8. When you do, you beable to re-enable EAX in those games.


 
  Ah I see, I thought that was just for OpenAL. Thanks, I'll give that a shot.


----------



## NamelessPFG

OpenAL doesn't need ALchemy in the first place; in fact, it's why ALchemy works, wrapping DS3D calls into OpenAL like dgVoodoo or nGlide wraps 3dfx Glide calls into Direct3D or OpenGL.
   
  Knights of the Old Republic and Thief: Deadly Shadows are both DirectSound3D-based, so they need it.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> OpenAL doesn't need ALchemy in the first place; in fact, it's why ALchemy works, wrapping DS3D calls into OpenAL like dgVoodoo or nGlide wraps 3dfx Glide calls into Direct3D or OpenGL.
> 
> Knights of the Old Republic and Thief: Deadly Shadows are both DirectSound3D-based, so they need it.


 
  Thanks for the info.
   
  So is it only for old games really? Or is DS3D still used in some games?


----------



## genclaymore

Funny enough Test Drive Unlimited 2 has the option for Direct Sound hal, but it wouldn't let me use it and kept reverting back to Xaudio2. I think it was just teasing me, as it know I don't Xaudio2.I was gonna use alchemy with it, if it allowed me to set it to DS from Xaudio2.


----------



## chewy4

Well ALchemy is surprisingly easy to work with. I was worried about having to press more than one button.


----------



## TwelveTrains

So I could use SniperCzar's "What U Hear" workaround to send my X-Fi Titanium's CCSM-3D to say a Schiit Bifrost via toslink for gaming? And then when I listen to music would I have to uncheck the "Listen to this device" in "What U Hear" and switch to Entertainment mode on the Creative Panel?
   
  I was going to just use my X-Fi Titanium as a DAC and then send it to a Schiit Asgard via 3.5mm to RCA, but if this workaround allows me to use a higher quality DAC such as the Bifrost without losing any quality then I'm all for it.
   
  By the way, I've heard a lot of talk about ASIO and WASAPI, and I'm not sure if that is something I have or should be using...? I have Windows 7.
   
  I apologize for noobishness. Everyone has been a great help on these forums so far and I think I am almost there.


----------



## AzureBeat

You'll loose performance and I'm not sure that it will provide that much of a benefit. I'm not certain of the audiophile buzz about DACs, but the technical specs don't seem much different.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote:


chewy4 said:


> So is it only for old games really? Or is DS3D still used in some games?


 
   
  Given that DS3D was axed with Windows Vista, it's generally unused. Even before its release, some games like Battlefield 2 and Doom 3 started making the transition to OpenAL.
   
  However, pretty much every Source engine game has the "snd_legacy_surround" command, which switches the Miles Sound System to DS3D output. Valve may have implemented OpenAL natively in the meantime, but I don't think it's used for the Windows builds for whatever reason.
   
  Quote: 





twelvetrains said:


> So I could use SniperCzar's "What U Hear" workaround to send my X-Fi Titanium's CCSM-3D to say a Schiit Bifrost via toslink for gaming? And then when I listen to music would I have to uncheck the "Listen to this device" in "What U Hear" and switch to Entertainment mode on the Creative Panel?
> 
> I was going to just use my X-Fi Titanium as a DAC and then send it to a Schiit Asgard via 3.5mm to RCA, but if this workaround allows me to use a higher quality DAC such as the Bifrost without losing any quality then I'm all for it.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Toslink/optical S/PDIF? You don't even need the SniperCzar trick for that. All it takes is to check "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" in the X-Fi control panel.
   
  The SniperCzar "What U Hear"/Stereo Mix trick is needed only if you're using a USB-only DAC. Even then, I'm not sure if the difference would be worth it.
   
  Also, I don't use Entertainment Mode at all. If pure music playback is what you want, I'd actually suggest using Audio Creation Mode to enable ASIO support, then enabling bit-matched playback and using a media player with an ASIO output plugin, like Winamp or foobar2000. (Personally, I don't hear enough of a difference to warrant switching out of Game Mode all the time, so I just use Winamp with an OpenAL output plugin.)
   
  WASAPI exclusive mode doesn't allow bit-matched playback on X-Fi cards for some reason (the sample rate setting doesn't change in Audio Creation Mode), and of course, it prevents other applications from playing audio at all while the media player has exclusive mode active.


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Given that DS3D was axed with Windows Vista, it's generally unused. Even before its release, some games like Battlefield 2 and Doom 3 started making the transition to OpenAL.
> 
> However, pretty much every Source engine game has the "snd_legacy_surround" command, which switches the Miles Sound System to DS3D output. Valve may have implemented OpenAL natively in the meantime, but I don't think it's used for the Windows builds for whatever reason.


 
  Is that the only way to get 3D sound in source games including CS:GO? That seems a little tricky with a Creative card since the source games don't showup on the list for ALchemy.
   
  I'd say that I hope they have OpenAL native by the time HL3(or Ep3, whatever they end up calling it) comes out, but I'm sure that there will not only be a new form of 3D sound by then but we will have also transcended beyond physical forms and will only exist as energy that is not restricted by the bounds of three dimensions.


----------



## SoFGR

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> Is that the only way to get 3D sound in source games including CS:GO? That seems a little tricky with a Creative card since the source games don't showup on the list for ALchemy.
> 
> I'd say that I hope they have OpenAL native by the time HL3(or Ep3, whatever they end up calling it) comes out, but I'm sure that there will not only be a new form of 3D sound by then but we will have also transcended beyond physical forms and will only exist as energy that is not restricted by the bounds of three dimensions.


 
  I think you should just set the game 5.1 and be done with it,  i've tried the snd_legacy_surround "1" + alchemy thing  last year in L4D2, it didn't work out that well, I had to set the game to headphones mode instead of 5.1 and  most sounds effects sounded way too different. 
   
  You should try  cspromod 1.10 btw, much tighter movement and goldsrc-like  sound spatialization


----------



## TwelveTrains

Ohhh I didn't see that stereo mix option. So I could have that checked for gaming with CCSM-3D on and send it optical out to my desktop DAC/amp. And then would I uncheck 'play stereo mix using digital output' for music listening, etc... (I'd probably just stay in game mode as well and just uncheck CCSM-3D). I am using Foobar right now but would I benefit from switching to Winamp with an OpenAL output plugin if I multitask a lot? Like I will listen to music sometimes, and then maybe be watching video in a web browser or something. And I am guessing drivers like ASIO or OpenAL wouldn't work in Google Chrome or games or...actually I don't really know how those things work at all. 
   
  Basically I want gaming/music/internet sound with the minimal amount of switching settings as possible.


----------



## TwelveTrains

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> and of course, it prevents other applications from playing audio at all while the media player has exclusive mode active.


 
  Ah yes, thank you, didn't see that part. For that reason I may stay with directsound, but uhh I haven't heard of this OpenAL output plugin business, I thought OpenAL was an API..
   
  Quote:


namelesspfg said:


> so I just use Winamp with an OpenAL output plugin.)


----------



## NamelessPFG

OpenAL *is* an audio API. It's not really that different from WASAPI exclusive mode and ASIO for this particular use, as you're still bypassing the Windows sound stack.
   
  It has come to attention that there are a bunch of Winamp OpenAL output plugins floating around, though. I'll have to upload the one I use at some point.


----------



## TwelveTrains

Or would I even have to uncheck 'play stereo mix using digital output' when listening to music. As long as the CCSM-3D is off that is, this would still be the raw signal that has not been converted analog to digitally yet correct? Or would I have to have it checked to get any sound to come through my external DAC.. gaming or otherwise?


----------



## Grymok

I decided to settle on a Beyer DT 990 premium 250 ohm can.
  This piece will be used for pc gaming and music.
  Gaming: BF3, BF4, some rpg.
  Music: Rap/hip hop, Rock/metal, all kind of electronic music.
   
  My sound card is the standard one, which comes with the Rampage II Extreme mb: http://www.asus.com/ROG/RAMPAGE_II_EXTREME/
  So this one ain't probably the best.
   
  The tricky parts comes now.
  As i'm setting a surround 5.1 set together, with some mid/higher end speakers, i'm gonna get some prober receiver, instead of the Denon avr-1912.
  The surround receiver will maybe be used for driving the DT990 premium 250 ohm phone.
  The 3 receivers i'm looking at: Yamaha ax 3010, Denon 4311 and Anthem mrx 300. So we're in the higher end of receivers.
   
  My question is: Can i settle on the surround receiver as a good enough headphone amp, or should i get something like the O2, or similar.
  I have been looking to get the Asus Essence STX sound card, but will that be overkill, if i'm not gonna use the amp?.
   
  Hmm, it's a little messed, but hope you beautiful guys/girls get my point.
   
  Hope some one can help here.


----------



## junrin

I'm an avid gamer, and i,m looking to upgrading my sound. I first ran into Mad Lust Envy's thread, which prompted me to visit this thread for help( as a pc gamer)
   
  as of now i use sony iem's for general pc usage, (games, youtube) with onboard audio. kind of bad, huh?
   
  on the first page of this thread
   
  Nameless says ''-Buy a Stax Lambda system. You'll generally need $300-500 and a speaker amp for the cheaper sets, but I have yet to find a better headphone for gaming if you're looking for competitive positioning and comfort for hours on end.
  -Alternatively, there's the HiFiMan HE-400, which is surprisingly comfortable with velour pads, has a nice cinematic sound presentation, and actually sounds surprisingly like a Stax SR-202/SRM-212 setup while being far less reliant on specialized amplification.''
   
  wait...wait, so a stax lambda is what i'm looking for. I actually can't find one. only its older brother, the sr 507 ( released recently)
  are the sonic qualities of both of them similar? i mean.. they are both from the lambda series ( I think ) 
   
  Taken from Battle Of The Flagships (57 Headphones compared):
   
  THE BATTLE OF THE FLAGSHIPS continued...
  My quest to find the greatest headphone ever made!
  by David Solomon
   
  #17 STAX: SR-507
   
  *Back To The Index
   
  In 1960, Stax introduced the very first electrostatic headphone. Without delving into too much detail, let me say that electrostatic transducers operate differently from dynamic transducers. Dynamic transducers are far more common in headphone design. However, electrostatic transducers are highly praised for their extremely low distortion levels. Electrostatic headphones require a dedicated electrostatic amplifier. While Stax manufacturers several of these amps themselves, many third-party manufacturers have designed some marvelous electrostatic amps.
   
  Stax introduced their Lambda series around 1980. More than thirty years later, Stax is still adding new headphones to this series. The SR-507 is the most recent addition to the Lambda series. The most obvious characteristic of this series is its rectangular-shaped ear-cup. The SR-507 is the only Lambda model I have ever owned. However, I have auditioned several Lambda models, including the SR-407 and SR-404 Limited Edition. I was highly impressed with the SR-404 Limited Edition, but I opted for the more easily-available SR-507.
   
  The SR-507 is not Stax's current flagship (that designation belongs to the SR-009), but it is the current flagship of the Lambda series. Coincidentally, the SR-507 is the lowest ranking of the eight electrostatic headphones included in my list; not a bad feat for electrostatics, considering that #17 is still a very high ranking. When contrasting the general sound properties of electrostatic and dynamic transducers, I find that electrostatic transducers often sound more transparent, whereas dynamic transducers often possess more impact and character. The sound signature of the SR-507 is just a hair on the analytical side, but nevertheless, it manages to be very engaging.
   
   
  STRENGTHS
  TRANSPARENT: The SR-507 is a very transparent sounding headphone. It possesses a slightly cold temperament, but is transparent nonetheless.
   
  TREBLE: The SR-507 exhibits grain-free treble extension. I prefer its treble presentation over most other headphones, save for the SR-009 and HE90.
   
  MIDS: The midrange response of the SR-507 is very close to flat. I don't hear any awkward peaks or dips here.
   
  DETAILED: The SR-507 provides the listener with a fantastic amount of detail. At its price, the SR-507 is the most detailed headphone that I have heard. The mids and treble sound extremely natural; upper-harmonics are audible without a sense of harshness.
   
  DECAY: Electrostatic headphones tend to offer a faster decay than dynamic transducer headphones. The SR-507 most certainly showcases a fast decay.
   
  TRANSIENT RESPONSE: From my experience, electrostatic transducers typically offer a liquid-like transient response. In terms of naturalness, the SR-507's transient response and decay surpasses that of most high-end dynamic headphones.
   
  SMALL ENSEMBLE MASTER: I find that the sound signature of the SR-507 is best-suited for small ensembles, such as an intimate jazz combo or chamber ensemble. It is also handles electronic music extremely well. I find that its sound signature may be just a bit too bright to be optimal for rock music.
   
  EASY TO AMP: The SR-507 requires an amplifier, but you don't need to spend a fortune to get it to sound good. Although I personally do not own any Stax amps, I have heard several Lambda models (including the SR-507) paired with Stax amps and I was mightily impressed with their sound.
   
  SERIALIZED: To my knowledge, all currently-produced Stax headphones are serialized; the SR-507 is no exception.
   
   
  WEAKNESSES
  ANALYTICAL?: To my ears, the sound signature of the SR-507 is a bit on the colder side. I enjoy its analytical nature sometimes, but other times, I find its sound to be verging on icy.
   
  SMALL SOUNDSTAGE: The soundstage here is narrow and without much height. If this headphone was to be criticized for having a weak spot, it would be its soundstage presentation.
   
  COMFORT: I have tried other Lambda models which happen to be far more comfortable than the SR-507. I do not find the SR-507 to be particularly comfortable; the internal area of the ear-cup exerts pressure on my outer ear. But the real issue here is just how much the leather earpads heat up my head; I sweat within 20 minutes of using the SR-507. I would reach for this headphone more if this was not the case.
   
  STORAGE: The packaging here is nothing fancy - just a cardboard box with Styrofoam padding inside. It's not the easiest task to put the headphones back in this box. In my opinion, the SR-507 ships with one of the least impressive storage boxes at its price-point.
   
   
  ON THE FENCE
  IMAGING: While the soundstage here is fairly narrow, the drivers are angled for a more realistic sound presentation. The SR-507 provides the listener with the ability to place instruments with a fair amount of precision.
   
  BASS: The bass response of the SR-507 is very tight and shows excellent restraint. Even still, it is just a touch leaner than I would like. I would prefer the SR-507 have a weightier / fuller tone. Perhaps, this is from where my perception of the SR-507's analytical nature stems.
   
  NEUTRAL?: The SR-507 is a fairly neutral sounding headphone. However, I wouldn't necessarily champion the SR-507 as a completely uncolored headphone.
   
  CABLE: The quality of the stock cable is very good. I have never had urge to re-cable any of my Stax headphones. However, you all already know that I prefer a user-detachable cable design. 
   
   
  FOR THE PRICE
  A-
   
  At its price-point, the SR-507 is a very good value. Of course, you will need an electrostatic amplifier in order to power the SR-507. The biggest criticism that I have regarding the SR-507 is that the earpads cause me to sweat excessively. If you don't mind this aspect so much, the SR-507 is among the best headphones you can buy for its price.
   
   
  QUICK CHECK
  DESIGN: Full-Size
  DRIVERS: Electrostatic
  ISOLATION: Little to None
  AMPLIFICATION: Absolutely Requires Amp
  MY PREFERRED AMP: HeadAmp Blue Hawaii Special Edition
  SOUNDS BEST WITH: Jazz / Chamber Music / Electronic
  CABLES USED: Stock
  REVISIONS KNOWN: None Known To Me
  FLAGSHIP STATUS: Specific To Product-Line
  PRODUCTION STATUS AS OF 2012: In Production
  COST: $1099.99
   
   
   
  One of the weaknesses is 'small soundstage', but a review of the lambda pro tells me of its incredible sound stage and detail.
  i don't understand. the 507 should be better than the original( i think )
  And isn't it true that good gaming headphones generally have large sound stages? at least what MLE posts.
  so please help, i'm all over the place, i don't know what sound card can be used with the electostat amp, and what sound card to get in the first place.
   
  Please Help


----------



## Tane

So I have been reading through this thread deciding on if I should got with an Xonar STX or Creative Sound Blaster Recon3D Fatal1ty Champion. Well it looks like the creative card is $100 off on newegg right now which comes to $99 but currently sold out. I was going to try a local Fry's to see if they would match it. It says it supports cans up to 600 ohm impedance. So I would not need an external desktop amp then? Is the amp included in this thing even half way decent? I am planning on picking up a pair of K702 anniversary if not just a pair of q701 instead. Anyone have experience with this card? Thanks
   
  Edit after reading some reviews it basically says the Creative card is good for gaming and nothing really else. I may just get a Xonar DG and a pair of Samson SR850 for a quick cheap set up.


----------



## StudioSound

I have a couple of questions here, and a few answers for people.

Firstly, I think I now want to get an X-Fi Titanium HD, as it supports both CMSS-3D (3D sound virtualization) and THX TruStudio (2D sound virtualization)
From the demos I've tried, I don't like the sound of Dolby Headphone, as everything has far too much reverb.

3D sound seems to be on the way out, so even though the X-Fi supports CMSS-3D, I don't think modern games do? It seems like modern games would require you to set the card to 7.1, and then use THX TruStudio to create a 2D sound field. (a ring of directional audio around you, rather than a sphere)


I want to use an external DAC though, rather than the X-Fi's analogue outputs. It seems like the "what u hear" USB DAC workaround is not going to be a high quality option, and should be avoided.

Is it still possible to set the card to 7.1 to have it do proper headphone virtualization while using the optical output to a stereo DAC? I would also be putting a delay box in-between the sound card and DAC to sync with my TV.





grymok said:


> I decided to settle on a Beyer DT 990 premium 250 ohm can.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


With 250 Ω headphones, you need an output impedance of 31 Ω or less. (you need 1/8 or lower)

Reading the manuals, the Yamaha headphone output is 100 Ω, so it would not be suitable for your headphones. (or virtually any - I can't think of anything that is 800 Ω)
Neither Denon or Anthem specify what their headphone output impedance is.

Yamaha offers Silent Cinema headphone virtualization, which I know a lot of people _don't_ like.
Denon just seems to offer a generic "virtual surround" option, which does not inspire confidence.
Anthem offer Dolby Headphone, and while that is not universally liked, it is probably the best of the three if you plan on using headphones with it.

So if that's what you're choosing between, and you don't want to buy a separate headphone amplifier, I would probably pick the Anthem.



grymok said:


> I have been looking to get the Asus Essence STX sound card, but will that be overkill, if i'm not gonna use the amp?.


Probably no point if you are going to be using digital out of the PC to the receiver.



tane said:


> So I have been reading through this thread deciding on if I should got with an Xonar STX or Creative Sound Blaster Recon3D Fatal1ty Champion. Well it looks like the creative card is $100 off on newegg right now which comes to $99 but currently sold out. I was going to try a local Fry's to see if they would match it. It says it supports cans up to 600 ohm impedance. So I would not need an external desktop amp then? Is the amp included in this thing even half way decent? I am planning on picking up a pair of K702 anniversary if not just a pair of q701 instead. Anyone have experience with this card? Thanks
> 
> Edit after reading some reviews it basically says the Creative card is good for gaming and nothing really else. I may just get a Xonar DG and a pair of Samson SR850 for a quick cheap set up.


The Q701/K702 have a 62 Ω impedance, so you want an output impedance below 8. They might be able to drive headphones up to 600 Ω, but I don't see a spec for headphone output impedance, so I don't know what the _minimum_ impedance headphones are that they will be able to drive well. I suspect you might need an external amplifier to drive those correctly.

A lot of people seem to think that low impedance headphones are easy to drive, but that is not the case. They are easy to drive at a high volume, but require much better amplifier design, as they require a much lower output impedance to work well.

High impedance headphones are easy to drive, but not necessarily easy to drive _loud_. But if you listen at low volumes, you're probably fine regardless.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





junrin said:


> I'm an avid gamer, and i,m looking to upgrading my sound. I first ran into Mad Lust Envy's thread, which prompted me to visit this thread for help( as a pc gamer)
> 
> as of now i use sony iem's for general pc usage, (games, youtube) with onboard audio. kind of bad, huh?
> 
> ...


 
   
  One thing I should have elaborated on is that not all Lambda-series models sound similar. Far from it, actually; modern Lambdas don't sound much like vintage Lambdas. But between the original SR-Lambda, SR-202, and SR-303, soundstage is the one thing that HASN'T changed.
   
  Also note that soundstage is relative; someone used to loudspeakers might find all headphones to sound closed-in, even renowned open-back models. The problem I have with audiophile reviews is that everything audio-related is inherently quite subjective.
   
  Another VERY important thing you overlooked was the reviewer's notes on *imaging*: "While the soundstage here is fairly narrow, the drivers are angled for a more realistic sound presentation. The SR-507 provides the listener with the ability to place instruments with a fair amount of precision." This is what you really need for a binaural mix to shine through headphones; it just so happens that headphones with larger soundstages also tend to have better imaging, especially regarding depth (front and rear distinction).
   
  Quote: 





studiosound said:


> I have a couple of questions here, and a few answers for people.
> 
> Firstly, I think I now want to get an X-Fi Titanium HD, as it supports both CMSS-3D (3D sound virtualization) and THX TruStudio (2D sound virtualization)
> From the demos I've tried, I don't like the sound of Dolby Headphone, as everything has far too much reverb.
> ...


 
   
  First off, you just need CMSS-3D Headphone. It's not that software-mixed games are incompatible with CMSS-3D Headphone, but that they won't feed it with proper 3D positional audio data so that it works at its best. In other words, CMSS-3D Headphone just gets dragged down to the virtual 5.1/7.1 level automatically, where it still performs well. It's just that, if given the choice between 3D audio that sounds like real life would, or a virtual 7.1 speaker system trying to imitate real life positional audio, which would you choose? (Too bad the game industry doesn't seem to agree with me here.)
   
  THX TruStudio Surround never impressed me; it failed spectacularly in Battlefield 2, when a tank somehow snuck up from behind me despite its loud engine noise and drove on. Thank goodness it was a friendly one, but still, that should NEVER have happened. CMSS-3D Headphone would have pinpointed its exact location long before it was next to me.
   
  Also, if you get a high-end card like the X-Fi Titanium HD, I wouldn't waste time with external DACs. Not nearly enough improvement for the money spent, if you ask me.
   
  Finally, setting the card to 5.1/7.1 under Windows (and Headphones under the card's control panel) is always advised by default. Note that having "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" on still keeps the analog outputs functional, so you're transmitting the same audio through both analog and S/PDIF at the same time.


----------



## Grymok

Quote: 





> With 250 Ω headphones, you need an output impedance of 31 Ω or less. (you need 1/8 or lower)
> 
> Reading the manuals, the Yamaha headphone output is 100 Ω, so it would not be suitable for your headphones. (or virtually any - I can't think of anything that is 800 Ω)
> Neither Denon or Anthem specify what their headphone output impedance is.
> ...


 
  Not sure if i did mention, that the sound card in the pc, will do the surround, then i just use the receiver as an amp, running in "Direct" mode.
   
  But i felt over this http://us.store.creative.com/Creative-Sound-Blaster-XFi-Titanium-Fatal1ty/M/B001BDPLJA.htm for something like 70$ used.
  Not sure how that will compete with the Xonar DG and Essence STX. For me it sound like a nice price. 
  Anyone tried this card?. Gonna decide me before tonight, where the deal end.


----------



## NamelessPFG

The X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) is a decent card and quite competent for gaming, but the price is a bit high. The non-Fatal1ty versions drop the EMI shield and the 64 MB of X-RAM, but that's not really anything important to lose given how much cheaper those tend to sell for. (Or would sell for, given that Newegg no longer sells refurbed ones for $40-50.)
   
  It sounds like you're going to be using a receiver as the primary DAC and amp, though, so there's no real point in spending the extra for the Titanium HD specifically. The X-Fi Titanium should suffice.


----------



## Evshrug

Can't sleep Nameless?
Also, were you recommending the Titanium or the Fatal1ty card?


----------



## StudioSound

namelesspfg said:


> First off, you just need CMSS-3D Headphone. It's not that software-mixed games are incompatible with CMSS-3D Headphone, but that they won't feed it with proper 3D positional audio data so that it works at its best. In other words, CMSS-3D Headphone just gets dragged down to the virtual 5.1/7.1 level automatically, where it still performs well. It's just that, if given the choice between 3D audio that sounds like real life would, or a virtual 7.1 speaker system trying to imitate real life positional audio, which would you choose? (Too bad the game industry doesn't seem to agree with me here.)
> 
> THX TruStudio Surround never impressed me; it failed spectacularly in Battlefield 2, when a tank somehow snuck up from behind me despite its loud engine noise and drove on. Thank goodness it was a friendly one, but still, that should NEVER have happened. CMSS-3D Headphone would have pinpointed its exact location long before it was next to me.


I thought that the game needed to use certain APIs for CMSS-3D to work, and that for games which only output "standard" 7.1 surround, you would have to use THX TruStudio.



namelesspfg said:


> Also, if you get a high-end card like the X-Fi Titanium HD, I wouldn't waste time with external DACs. Not nearly enough improvement for the money spent, if you ask me.


The headphone output is only suitable for headphones that are 280 Ω or higher - my headphones are all below 50 Ω, so I would need an external amplifier anyway.

I would only be buying this card for the CMSS-3D & THX TruStudio processing, not the audio output stage. If there are cheaper cards that can do this with a digital output, I would rather save the money as it won't make a difference. (the DAC I am planning on buying is immune to jitter) Because the X-Fi Titanium HD is an older card now though, it's starting to get discounted. The new SoundBlaster Z series is actually worse from a gaming perspective, right? (no CMSS-3D, only SBX Pro Studio?)



namelesspfg said:


> Finally, setting the card to 5.1/7.1 under Windows (and Headphones under the card's control panel) is always advised by default. Note that having "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" on still keeps the analog outputs functional, so you're transmitting the same audio through both analog and S/PDIF at the same time.


So I can definitely set the sound card to 7.1 and have it mix to a stereo digital output for headphones?

The reason I'm asking is that when using HDMI right now for example, I can _only_ output a stereo signal. It doesn't even let me try to set the device to 5.1/7.1



namelesspfg said:


> The X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) is a decent card and quite competent for gaming, but the price is a bit high. The non-Fatal1ty versions drop the EMI shield and the 64 MB of X-RAM, but that's not really anything important to lose given how much cheaper those tend to sell for. (Or would sell for, given that Newegg no longer sells refurbed ones for $40-50.)
> 
> It sounds like you're going to be using a receiver as the primary DAC and amp, though, so there's no real point in spending the extra for the Titanium HD specifically. The X-Fi Titanium should suffice.


Do they support THX TruStudio though?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Can't sleep Nameless?
> Also, were you recommending the Titanium or the Fatal1ty card?


 
   
  I have a notorious habit for staying up much later than I should.
   
  The fact that some of my Internet pals stay up pretty late on the US West Coast while I'm all the way on the East Coast (three hours worth of time zone difference) doesn't help matters.
   
  I find the X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty cards to just be overpriced versions of the basic X-Fi Titanium, but if the prices are close enough, you might as well go for the Fatal1ty variant.
   
  Quote: 





studiosound said:


> I thought that the game needed to use certain APIs for CMSS-3D to work, and that for games which only output "standard" 7.1 surround, you would have to use THX TruStudio.
> The headphone output is only suitable for headphones that are 280 Ω or higher - my headphones are all below 50 Ω, so I would need an external amplifier anyway.
> 
> I would only be buying this card for the CMSS-3D & THX TruStudio processing, not the audio output stage. If there are cheaper cards that can do this with a digital output, I would rather save the money as it won't make a difference. (the DAC I am planning on buying is immune to jitter) Because the X-Fi Titanium HD is an older card now though, it's starting to get discounted. The new SoundBlaster Z series is actually worse from a gaming perspective, right? (no CMSS-3D, only SBX Pro Studio?)
> ...


 
   
  I apologize if I gave you that impression, but CMSS-3D Headphone works with all games. It just works *better* with games that use the APIs in question.
   
  If you insist on running an external DAC, then the non-HD X-Fi Titanium models will be fine, and save you a bit of cash in the process. (I don't bother with external DACs, and the only one I've got-a JVC/Victor SU-DH1 Dolby Headphone processor-is noticeably worse than the Titanium HD regarding analog output.)
   
  The Sound Core3D cards (Recon3D, Z-series) are already worse in my experience because of THX TruStudio Surround (which sounds noticeably worse than CMSS-3D Headphone to my ears, no matter what game is used for testing) and the lack of a true hardware OpenAL renderer (the software OpenAL renderer used, similar to all their USB devices and the X-Fi XtremeAudio line, has a few quirks with certain games). Throw in the lack of a hardware MIDI synthesizer (hey, I still play my fair share of DOS games with spiffy SoundFonts!) and other omissions like ASIO, and I find it difficult to recommend them. At least the Recon3D USB had the benefit of also being a console headphone surround processor.
   
  As for HDMI, if you absolutely need HDMI audio output, you have ONE option, and that's the elusive Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD.


----------



## StudioSound

namelesspfg said:


> I apologize if I gave you that impression, but CMSS-3D Headphone works with all games. It just works *better* with games that use the APIs in question.


If CMSS-3D works with everything, then it seems like I could just buy a cheaper X-Fi card. I was only interested in the Titanium HD because I thought I needed THX TruStudio as well for games that didn't support CMSS-3D, and I think it's the only one that supports THX TruStudio.

I wish there was a simple table somewhere that compared all the various different cards that Creative offers, and what features they support.



namelesspfg said:


> If you insist on running an external DAC, then the non-HD X-Fi Titanium models will be fine, and save you a bit of cash in the process. (I don't bother with external DACs, and the only one I've got-a JVC/Victor SU-DH1 Dolby Headphone processor-is noticeably worse than the Titanium HD regarding analog output.)


Well I don't want to run long unbalanced audio cables through the walls, especially from the analogue output of a soundcard. With an external DAC, I can use a digital format (Toslink/Coax) that won't suffer any degradation. With Toslink/Coax, I have also found external boxes that let me set a manual delay, so that I can sync audio to my TV without needing HDMI.



namelesspfg said:


> As for HDMI, if you absolutely need HDMI audio output, you have ONE option, and that's the elusive Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD.


I don't _need_ HDMI, but HDMI means that I don't require an external DAC, and that audio is automatically synced up to my TV.

If that Auzentech card offers CMSS-3D, that may actually work quite well, and it would definitely be a cheaper option.

I have been thinking of purchasing a new DAC/Amp for some time now though, and now that I have found a digital delay box, it wouldn't require HDMI.


----------



## musicana

Quote: 





studiosound said:


> If CMSS-3D works with everything, then it seems like I could just buy a cheaper X-Fi card. I was only interested in the Titanium HD because I thought I needed THX TruStudio as well for games that didn't support CMSS-3D, and I think it's the only one that supports THX TruStudio.
> 
> I wish there was a simple table somewhere that compared all the various different cards that Creative offers, and what features they support.
> Well I don't want to run long unbalanced audio cables through the walls, especially from the analogue output of a soundcard. With an external DAC, I can use a digital format (Toslink/Coax) that won't suffer any degradation. With Toslink/Coax, I have also found external boxes that let me set a manual delay, so that I can sync audio to my TV without needing HDMI.
> ...


 
  cmss-3d is software
  you can try it if you have realtec


----------



## StudioSound

musicana said:


> cmss-3d is software
> you can try it if you have realtec


Really? I thought it required a Creative card. My motherboard has a Realtek ALC892 with S/PDIF output.


----------



## musicana

Quote: 





studiosound said:


> Really? I thought it required a Creative card. My motherboard has a Realtek ALC892 with S/PDIF output.


 
  you dont buy x-fi for cmss-3d
  you buy it for sound quality
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/580293/turning-realtek-on-board-hda-into-creative-x-fi


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





musicana said:


> you dont buy x-fi for cmss-3d
> you buy it for sound quality
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/580293/turning-realtek-on-board-hda-into-creative-x-fi


 
  That's some useful stuff, shame it only got one troll post and died.


----------



## NamelessPFG

CMSS-3D Headphone on a real X-Fi card with Game Mode still works a bit better to my ears, though. The software variant doesn`t have MacroFX or Elevation Filter adjustments, and then there are the occasional quirks with Creative`s software OpenAL device in general.

But aside from that, the software variant does work surprisingly well for something not hardware DSP-based.


----------



## junrin

Hey, its me again.
   
  So i have decided to get a pair of sr-407's a tiny step down from sr-507 and cost $500 less, and a refurbished srm-1 mk2 which i found on ebay for $517~ usd 
   
  BUT
   
  i still dont know what sound card to get to connect to the srm-1.
   
  Creative X-Fi titanium 
  or
  Asus Xonar Essence STX
   
  and what type of wire to use to connect sound card to amp
   
  again, please help


----------



## KiruDub

If you do a lot of gaming, I'd go with a Titanium HD. If gaming isn't that big of a deal to you, it comes down to what card has the (non-gaming) features you want.
   
  With either card, you'd likely want to use a digital output (using a digital coaxial cable, for example) to make the run to your receiver.


----------



## junrin

The SRM-1 mk2 only supports 1/4'' RCA input, does either soundcards support that?


----------



## Heretic817

Question regarding setting up virtual surround with an X-fi card in Windows 7.
   
  I was playing Dead Space 2 (and other games) for quite a while before I realized I had been doing it all wrong it would seem.
   
  My Creative setting had CMSS-3D turned on but my windows and game settings were set to 2.1 and Stereo respectively.
   
  This was OK. Direction was decent but what really felt missing was a sense of presentation in an open space. It was not nearly as good as with my Astro Mixamp on my PS3 (Dolby Headphone). I thought it was simply the difference between the tech.
   
  So, I read that I should have set Windows to 7.1 and the game to 5.1 (it's highest setting) and the X-fi card to CMSS-3D on and headphone.
   
  I did this and I must say it makes quite a difference. I only did this last night and I feel like I still need to get used to the somewhat jarring change. I think that in every way it counts it is better. That is except for one.
   
  THE PROBLEM: I noticed that when the sounds get "busy" as in monsters scream while a hatch is slamming shut and something explodes there are notches in the sound. There are times when some sounds get a piece of them cut out. This was not happening when I was set to 2.1
   
  THE CAUSE??: I suspect that this might have something to do with the speaker settings in Windows. After choosing 7.1 you are asked to select some check boxes. The first asks what speakers you have. The next asks which of your speakers are Satellite speakers (something about Dynamic Range) 
   
   
  Does anyone know what the correct settings are and what might cause this problem. Thank you in advance.
   
   
  Windows 7 x64, Sound Blaster X-fi Xtreme Gamer, Objective2 Amp, AKG Q701


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





junrin said:


> The SRM-1 mk2 only supports 1/4'' RCA input, does either soundcards support that?


 
   
   
  They both have RCA output. The STX does not have dolby headphone through the RCA output, but you can get a an adapter for headphone out to RCA.
   
  I don't think there's a such thing as 1/4" RCA though, are you sure that's right? I mean they do have this kind of cable: http://www.amazon.com/Hosa-Cable-CPR201-Dual-Inch/dp/B000068O16 , but that's not technically RCA; it's an RCA to dual mono 1/4" TRS cables. I don't see why an amp would have that as an input.


----------



## Heretic817

For reference: 
   
  http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=96663&AID=10274033&PID=3891137
   
  This would seem to say that my settings are correct yet they introduce a problem. Any suggestions/comments?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





junrin said:


> The SRM-1 mk2 only supports 1/4'' RCA input, does either soundcards support that?


 
   
  Any decent RCA cable will do. Just connect the Titanium HD's RCA outputs to the amp's RCA inputs. Couldn't be more straightforward.
   
  And yes, CMSS-3D Headphone carries over the Titanium HD's RCA outputs, no need to adapt the headphone output.
   
  Quote: 





heretic817 said:


> For reference:
> 
> http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=96663&AID=10274033&PID=3891137
> 
> This would seem to say that my settings are correct yet they introduce a problem. Any suggestions/comments?


 
   
  Not sure on that. I don't notice the problem you mention about sounds being "notched" or having something missing from them.
   
  I do have all the speakers marked as "full-range" in Windows, though.


----------



## Heretic817

Hmmm. Well I will do some professional dorking when I get home. Will post if I find the problem just in case it can help someone out.


----------



## junrin

Eh... ok, another question. when i use such a high end headphone, when i use youtube or any low quality music, will it sound bad? can is 256kbps music good enough? or do i need to get lossless?


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





junrin said:


> Eh... ok, another question. when i use such a high end headphone, when i use youtube or any low quality music, will it sound bad? can is 256kbps music good enough? or do i need to get lossless?


 
  The difference between compressed files above 128kbps and lossless isn't so much in overall sound quality,but rather artifacts that you have to listen to carefully to hear. 256kbps is at a level where these artifacts aren't going to be audible for most people.
   
  If you want to test between them, here's a thread you might be interested in: http://www.head-fi.org/t/653438/high-bitrate-lossy-vs-lossless-test
   
  The top link in my signature has comparisons between 320,128, and lossless as well but the samples probably aren't going to be as complex as bigshot has, and I don't include 256.
   
  As far as youtube goes, I believe some old youtube vidoes have crappy audio encoding. But newer ones can be decent.
   
  Here's a chart of youtube bitrates:
   

 Resolution Audio Bit Rate Compression Original 192 kbps AAC 1080p 192 kbps AAC 720p 192 kbps AAC 480p 128 kbps AAC 360p 128 kbps AAC 240p 64 kbps MP3


----------



## Evshrug

studiosound said:


> If CMSS-3D works with everything, then it seems like I could just buy a cheaper X-Fi card. I was only interested in the Titanium HD because I thought I needed THX TruStudio as well for games that didn't support CMSS-3D, and I think it's the only one that supports THX TruStudio.
> 
> I wish there was a simple table somewhere that compared all the various different cards that Creative offers, and what features they support.




What, you mean like the one on most of creative's Amazon descriptions? http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blaster-Titanium-Internal-SB1270/dp/B0041OUA38/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362241273&sr=8-1&keywords=creative+titanium


----------



## BetaWolf

Hello, folks. I'm curious as to whether anyone knows a fun, competitive game with good positional cues. I've been playing a lot of Crysis 2 and Battlefield: Bad Company 2 with my X-Fi Titanium, the cues are kind of meh.
   
  Crysis 2 has decent positioning, but no elevation effects, so anyone who is on a floor above you sounds like they're right next to you. Bad Company 2 is good, but the fact that the game allows for so many players on a single map makes it difficult to make sense of anything. You spawn during a game of Rush, and instantly there are explosions and footsteps on every side of you. There's no separation.
   
  I'm looking for something competitive, whether it be FPS or other online game. I'd also prefer this one to not be a war-based FPS like the Call of Duty or Battlefield series, as I'm sick of the genre.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Problem is, most of the fun, competitive games with good positional cues I know of ARE FPSs. Not all of them are the "generic military FPS" sort, though, since I'm quite fond of Unreal Tournament and Tribes and so forth.
   
  Perhaps I should fire up Sacrifice sometime, seeing as it's an RTS that uses the Miles Sound System for DS3D support (so make sure you use ALchemy), and since you're a wizard with an actual presence on the battlefield, positional audio cues can be important when you can't keep your eyes on the mini-map all the time.
   
  There's also IL-2 Sturmovik: 1946, though the positional cues through DS3D (again, ALchemy needed) will probably be obscured because of your aircraft's engine noise. Still, they're there and help a lot with the overall situational awareness picture, which is critical for old-school dogfighting. "Lose sight, lose the fight", as they say.
   
  Oh, and as I keep saying, Battlefield: Bad Company 2 has terrible positional audio mixing. You'd have to go back to the first four games (1942, Vietnam, BF2, 2142) to know what good positional audio (and good gameplay not entirely based around unlocks, except 2142 which started that madness) in a Battlefield game is like.


----------



## BetaWolf

Which Unreal Tournament and Tribes games? I'm sort of fond of Tribes: Ascend and Unreal Tournament 3. Do all of them have good positional audio support? I'd like to stick to recent stuff, since I dislike ALchemy. Requires going through a bunch of annoying registry paths if you're unlucky enough to find a game that doesn't work with it like it should.
   
   
   
  Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> As far as youtube goes, I believe some old youtube vidoes have crappy audio encoding. But newer ones can be decent.
> 
> Here's a chart of youtube bitrates:
> 
> ...


 
  Bleh, you'd think they'd use HE-AAC for 240p.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





betawolf said:


> Which Unreal Tournament and Tribes games? I'm sort of fond of Tribes: Ascend and Unreal Tournament 3. Do all of them have good positional audio support? I'd like to stick to recent stuff, since I dislike ALchemy. Requires going through a bunch of annoying registry paths if you're unlucky enough to find a game that doesn't work with it like it should.


 
   
  All of them, though Tribes Ascend takes a slight hit to positioning because it uses XAudio2 or FMOD Ex instead of OpenAL, meaning no height cues (in a game with a major vertical element to the gameplay, at that). Tribes 1 and 2 are DirectSound3D-based, though, and thus need ALchemy.
   
  Unreal Tournament (the original 1999 release) needs this Old Unreal patch for OpenAL support. Works very well, though you do have to know how to enable it either thought UnrealTournament.ini or the Preferences window (accessed by typing "preferences" into the console). UT 2004 is OpenAL-native (like almost every other UnrealEngine2 game), so you don't need to jump through any hoops.
   
  Also, when you enable OpenAL for a game, what you're really doing is copying a dsound.dll and dsound.ini to the game's executable folder, and the dsound.ini just has some variables that adjust how it works. I don't even bother using the ALchemy GUI when setting it up, since it's much easier for me to just copy-and-paste.


----------



## Heretic817

Quote: 





heretic817 said:


> Question regarding setting up virtual surround with an X-fi card in Windows 7.
> 
> I was playing Dead Space 2 (and other games) for quite a while before I realized I had been doing it all wrong it would seem.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Well, I fiddled with all of the knobs and sliders and whatnot. It seems that I can have all of the settings described for setup by Creative. However, I have to reduce the sample rate in the windows settings for the X-fi.
   
  Default was 24 bit 48,000 Hz (which is fine)
   
  I had it set to 24 bit 192,000 Hz (which caused popping and cut outs)
   
  Per some stuff I read on the Creative support page I guess the X-fi was just being overwhelmed.
   
  Pretty sure that was it. Before I could not go more than 10 min. without hearing the problem. After reducing the sample rate I probably logged about 5 hours without issue.
   
  Just FYI if anyone has the same issue.


----------



## TwelveTrains

Killing Floor is super fun.


----------



## Pyrocles

Quote: 





heretic817 said:


> Well, I fiddled with all of the knobs and sliders and whatnot. It seems that I can have all of the settings described for setup by Creative. However, I have to reduce the sample rate in the windows settings for the X-fi.
> 
> Default was 24 bit 48,000 Hz (which is fine)
> 
> ...


 
   
  I've noticed that my X-Fi Titanium HD drops down to 2.1 channel output when set to 24/192. It only allows up to 24/96 in 5.1 channel output. Maybe this was the problem?


----------



## Heretic817

Hmmm. Perhaps. Guess I wll check that. Thanks.


----------



## Razeredge

Does anyone here know anything about enabling OpenAL/DS3D in Red Orchestra 2: Heroes of Stalingrad? I'd like to get it enabled, as otherwise this game has absolutely fantastic audio.
   
  I've tried ini tweaking, but changing the audio device from Xaudio2 to the OpenAL device results in a blatant lack of audio... Any help would be appreciated.
   
  (This is with an X-fi Titanium HD)


----------



## genclaymore

You can try to add in the below info into the game engine.ini manaully, then replace Xaudio2 device with ALAudio.AlaudioDevice. to see if that will solve it, if the info isn't in the ini.  I tried a couple of games by adding it manaully and it seem to worked if the openal is still in the code for that game. Alot of the games I have installed that is UE3 based already had the info, just the ones that doesn't.
   
  [ALAudio.ALAudioDevice]
  MaxChannels=128
 CommonAudioPoolSize=0
 MinCompressedDurationGame=5
 MinCompressedDurationEditor=4
 LowPassFilterResonance=0.9
 DeviceName=


 [ALAudio.AlDllWrapper]
 DeviceName=


----------



## BetaWolf

Quote: 





pyrocles said:


> I've noticed that my X-Fi Titanium HD drops down to 2.1 channel output when set to 24/192. It only allows up to 24/96 in 5.1 channel output. Maybe this was the problem?


 
  Noticed the same thing on my non-HD. No wonder my positional audio has sucked for some time.


----------



## Simsy SAS

Hi gents,
   
  tags: EXTERNAL SOUND CARDS, SURROUND SOUND, GAMING
   
  Thanks a lot for all the information put together. I've got a question though - even after all the info (I don't have the time to read 93 pages but I did find a hint of what I was looking for but it didn't have conclusive answer).
   
  I've got the Creative CAL headphones as reviewed by Lusty, I'm using them for the PC obviously. It's an ITX motherboard, doesn't have enough PCI slots for a dedicated sound card so I'm using on board sound (Realtek HD). 
   
  What I want to know is, is it worth me buying a dedicated USB sound card for gaming? Gaming is what it's for, should have said. I play mostly RTS and Simulations (flight) and ive been using £20 headphones on the internal sound card - it's been a LONG time since I had decent gaming sound-gear, I can't remember what I'm missing, if anything?
   
  I'm looking at the DSS2, Astro Mixamp (I know its designed for consoles but meh?) and the Creative Blaster USB sticks...
   
  HELP!!
   
   
  Simsy


----------



## NamelessPFG

USB means you can't use the most ideal devices for gaming audio, as they're all PCI(-Express)-based, but you still have some decent options.
   
  The ones I'd consider looking into are the older X-Fi USB devices that still have CMSS-3D Headphone (since I prefer it to THX TruStudio Surround by far, even its software-processed incarnation) and the Xonar U3.


----------



## Ban13

So Arma 3: Alpha is out... and I bought it. I love pretty much everything about it except for it being hardware unfriendly and really bad positioning cues. I've only played Project Reality mod for BF2 in the past 5 years. With Titanium HD and Q701 I can tell where any sound is coming from. But in Arma: 3... I can't at all. I can't tell how far/close it is, I can barely tell if it's from the front or back. It' really terrible. Plus I can't seem to find what Sound API they're using so I have no idea how to make it better (I thought about using Alchemy).
   
  If anybody knows how to make the best out of it please share.
   
  Edit: It uses XAudio2 + X3DAudio so no Alchemy magic (can't really find much else to make it better).


----------



## roguegeek

Just a heads-up. J&R has the X-Fi Titanium HD on sale for $109.99 if you use the code "MADNESS". Pretty great price for the best 2-channel gaming card out there.


----------



## Evshrug

roguegeek said:


> Just a heads-up. J&R has the X-Fi Titanium HD on sale for $109.99 if you use the code "MADNESS". Pretty great price for the best 2-channel gaming card out there.



Thanks for the head's up. Tomorrow is payday, hopefully I'll have more than enough to pay bills so I can treat myself.
Edit: met a new coworker, who has great gaming gear but doesn't use his X-Fi titanium, perhaps I can buy it from him. Anybody got a good suggestion on an offer to make him for his used X-Fi Titanium?


----------



## Simsy SAS

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> USB means you can't use the most ideal devices for gaming audio, as they're all PCI(-Express)-based, but you still have some decent options.
> 
> The ones I'd consider looking into are the older X-Fi USB devices that still have CMSS-3D Headphone (since I prefer it to THX TruStudio Surround by far, even its software-processed incarnation) and the Xonar U3.


 
   
  My motherboard has DTS Ultra Pc II, how does this rank against Dolby Headphone on the Xonar U3 you listed? (this looks like my best option, my CAL cans, according to Lusty, work best with Dolby Headphone).
   
  Is it worth me getting this USB stick then, over the onboard sound, you think?
   
  And really importantly, do you think there's any point at all in getting the astro mixamp for PC, my motherboard has an optical out which is tested (to the 5.1 TV setup ive got) so I know that's an option. The Astro would maybe be as good if not better than the Xonar? The onboard sound has DTS Connect which I believe is what I need to output to the mixamp via optical for simulated surround?
   
  Thanks for the previous reply.
   
   
  Simsy


----------



## Evshrug

Simsy,
I assume by Lusty, you mean Mad Lust Envy?

The Astro Mixamp is frankly a little overpriced, especially if you're using it with a PC. The Mixamp uses Dolby Headphone for surround processing, so does the Xonar U3. Neither of those two have really great amps (so for challenging headphones, you would be best served with an additional discrete headphone amp anyway), though both should be sufficient with the CAL!s. With the price difference between Creative's X-Fi Go! or Asus' Xonar U3 versus the Astro Mixamp, you could probably put the savings towards a nice amp and be better-off overall. Lastly, the Mixamp requires Dolby Digital Live from an optical output, so a DTS Connect signal wouldn't work. Computers can actually detect the Mixamp as a USB sound device, but from what I read the USB isn't well implemented.

As far as "Lusty" saying the CAL!s work best with Dolby Headphone, a more accurate way to look at it is the CAL!s are better-suited for surround processing than most closed-back headphones because the CAL!s have good soundstage for closed cans, and the best processing method (Dolby Headphone, THX, SBX, CMSS-3D, etc) is the one that works best with your *ears.* Your ears and your brain process sound "directionality" differently, use the videos in the guide in my signature to make up your own mind about which works best – I don't (yet) have a SBX or THX TruStudio Pro sample, but you can hear Dolby Headphone and CMSS-3D.

Right now, I'm happy with my Recon3D USB processor, I like THX better than DH or CMSS-3D personally (though I recently heard a CMSS-3D sample that impressed me, and logically I think it should be better and more refined than DH), and I like that I can use the USB with my Mac/PC and the optical connection with my Xbox, though the built-in amp alone isn't sufficient for my Q701s and the DAC isn't as good as a dedicated PC Card or a high-end USB stereo DAC. Nameless has a Recon3D USB too (unless he sold it already?), which he didn't like as much as his top-end Titanium HD soundcard and Stax headphone setup (understandable) and found that the Recon3D USB doesn't natively support surround with some retro gaming titles. The Recon3D is designed closer to the market segment of the X-Fi Go! And the Xonar U3 — I wonder how it compares to those, though the Recon3D obviously adds external control buttons, Optical surround input, and part of a wireless adapter for one of Creative's other headphones besides the CAL! (Creative Aurvana Live!, the same company as makes the X-Fi and Recon3D products).


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





simsy sas said:


> My motherboard has DTS Ultra Pc II, how does this rank against Dolby Headphone on the Xonar U3 you listed? (this looks like my best option, my CAL cans, according to Lusty, work best with Dolby Headphone).
> 
> Is it worth me getting this USB stick then, over the onboard sound, you think?
> 
> ...


 
   
  That depends on whether or not DTS Surround Sensation happens to be one of the features; even then, I'd still have to test it to find if it's worthy of comparison to Dolby Headphone or CMSS-3D Headphone.
   
  Even if it does have DTS Connect, it's useless on a Mixamp because it cannot decode DTS. For that matter, I know of only TWO headphone surround processors that can decode a DTS signal: the discontinued JVC/Victor SU-DH1, and the stupidly expensive Beyerdynamic Headzone. Everything else is generally Dolby Digital and Dolby Pro Logic-only.
   
  Besides, for the price of a Mixamp, you're better off getting something tailored to PC use.
   
  Evshrug: No, I haven't found a buyer for this Recon3D USB yet. My own impressions and Mad Lust Envy's alike seem to have killed the market for it here. Your praise for THX TruStudio Surround may be what turns that around, though.


----------



## genclaymore

Atleast you have a backup incase something bad happen to your current audio device or sound card. You might be able to sell it to a local friend or ebay.


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> Evshrug: No, I haven't found a buyer for this Recon3D USB yet. My own impressions and Mad Lust Envy's alike seem to have killed the market for it here. Your praise for THX TruStudio Surround may be what turns that around, though.




I mean, I haven't heard better yet for my ears, comparing via YouTube videos and Silent Cinema on my receiver. I still think that besides that point, the Recon3D USB gets extra points for being equally viable as a source for PC or console. I've not read many others on Head-Fi that have written about it and explored it's settings in-depth; I know you played around with it a bit and have better knowledge about drivers than most, but most other posts about it are "is it good?" I've also probably spent the most time using the Recon3D USB, so beyond that decent first impression things have mostly improved over time as I tweaked settings, added tube amping, and burned in my brain to understand the direction cues better.

I'll probably keep using my Recon3D USB for Xbox 360 and probably my next console (There are no rumors that I've heard about headphone support in the next-gen consoles, just my wishes and rants on various websites), but I'm still curious by nature. Really looking forward to an OpenAL game, not sure which one to try first on my Wn8 box. I don't know if you saw, but I made a friend at Wendy's who has a Titanium (non-HD) that he doesn't use, I'm going to try and convince him to lend or sell it to me. Do you have a good idea for a price bid I could offer him?

It's certainly nice to have income again, even if my manager screwed up my direct deposit and decided to pay via those pay cards without telling me.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I mean, I haven't heard better yet for my ears, comparing via YouTube videos and Silent Cinema on my receiver. I still think that besides that point, the Recon3D USB gets extra points for being equally viable as a source for PC or console. I've not read many others on Head-Fi that have written about it and explored it's settings in-depth; I know you played around with it a bit and have better knowledge about drivers than most, but most other posts about it are "is it good?" I've also probably spent the most time using the Recon3D USB, so beyond that decent first impression things have mostly improved over time as I tweaked settings, added tube amping, and burned in my brain to understand the direction cues better.
> 
> I'll probably keep using my Recon3D USB for Xbox 360 and probably my next console (There are no rumors that I've heard about headphone support in the next-gen consoles, just my wishes and rants on various websites), but I'm still curious by nature. Really looking forward to an OpenAL game, not sure which one to try first on my Wn8 box. I don't know if you saw, but I made a friend at Wendy's who has a Titanium (non-HD) that he doesn't use, I'm going to try and convince him to lend or sell it to me. Do you have a good idea for a price bid I could offer him?
> 
> It's certainly nice to have income again, even if my manager screwed up my direct deposit and decided to pay via those pay cards without telling me.


 
   
  I think part of it, in my case, is that I already have the SU-DH1 for the consoles and find myself rather unhindered by its lack of voice chat mixing. Then there's the X-Fi Go! for my notebooks, which has CMSS-3D Headphone in its software implementation. That leaves the Recon3D USB without much of a place in my household, unless I were to dedicate it to one of my original Xboxes.
   
  For an X-Fi Titanium (non-HD), I'd start at $30. Maybe work your way up to $40 and then $50 if he refuses, but don't go beyond $50.


----------



## Evshrug

Ok I'll try that. Hopefully I'll work with him tonight. He wants me to play SW:TOR again, lol.


----------



## palanoid

Quote: 





ban13 said:


> So Arma 3: Alpha is out... and I bought it. I love pretty much everything about it except for it being hardware unfriendly and really bad positioning cues. I've only played Project Reality mod for BF2 in the past 5 years. With Titanium HD and Q701 I can tell where any sound is coming from. But in Arma: 3... I can't at all. I can't tell how far/close it is, I can barely tell if it's from the front or back. It' really terrible. Plus I can't seem to find what Sound API they're using so I have no idea how to make it better (I thought about using Alchemy).
> 
> If anybody knows how to make the best out of it please share.
> 
> Edit: It uses XAudio2 + X3DAudio so no Alchemy magic (can't really find much else to make it better).


 
   
  You could try setting System Input in your audio panel or sound settings in windows control panel, see if it made a difference for you. I'm using an Asus Xonar D1 sound card and I have serious issue discerning positional cues with just 2 channels as system input. I get best results by enabling Dolby Headphone actually,maybe CMSS-3D would also give you better experience in ArmA 3.


----------



## Ban13

Quote: 





palanoid said:


> You could try setting System Input in your audio panel or sound settings in windows control panel, see if it made a difference for you. I'm using an Asus Xonar D1 sound card and I have serious issue discerning positional cues with just 2 channels as system input. I get best results by enabling Dolby Headphone actually,maybe CMSS-3D would also give you better experience in ArmA 3.


 
   
  Hey, I tried playing with settings myself. Since XAudio2 mixes everything based on your Windows setting I changed that and played around with CMSS-3D. Even though it's better with CMSS-3D it still sound absolutely horrible.


----------



## Evshrug

evshrug said:


> Ok I'll try that. Hopefully I'll work with him tonight. He wants me to play SW:TOR again, lol.



We were going to hang out after my 2nd to last day, but last minute he says his parents would be out and he has to watch his grandma. I think, actually, that somehow I made him nervous. *shrug*

I saw a GTX 570 on sale for $150, trying to decide if I want to jump on it.


----------



## Razeredge

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> You can try to add in the below info into the game engine.ini manaully, then replace Xaudio2 device with ALAudio.AlaudioDevice. to see if that will solve it, if the info isn't in the ini.  I tried a couple of games by adding it manaully and it seem to worked if the openal is still in the code for that game. Alot of the games I have installed that is UE3 based already had the info, just the ones that doesn't.
> 
> [ALAudio.ALAudioDevice]
> MaxChannels=128
> ...


 

 Thanks, I'll give that a try now.
   
  EDIT:
  I tried it, there was no sound at all in the game :/


----------



## yrrnn

I'm currently thinking of building a gaming HTPC since I no longer have ready access to my gaming PC at home. My gaming PC uses an X-Fi Titanium HD > Fiio E10 USB DAC/Amp > AKG K601 for surround gaming on headphones using the "What U Hear" listen hack described on the first post, and it works really well most of the time. For my HTPC, it will be connected to my TV and Hifi system via HDMI, and I expect that most of the time I'll just be using my 5.1 speakers, but I'd like to be able to get surround through some headphones as well if possible for the times when I don't want to disturb my wife.
   
  Can anybody recommend any virtual surround/amp/dac solutions for a living room setup where the computer is going to be a fair distance away from the couch?
   
  Would the same approach as my gaming PC be best, or is there a better way for a home theatre setup? Should I be getting my headphone output from the HTPC, the TV, or the Hifi receiver? I have a basic Yamaha 5.1 receiver, does anybody know if it is possible to get virtual surround from the headphone output on that? Is there a way I can get a headphone port/amp/dac closer to the couch through a long usb cable or something I can leave installed and out of the way (or even maybe a wireless solution) instead of running a long headphone cord across the living room and having to get up every time I want to change the volume on my amp?
   
  Sorry for the barrage of questions, any suggestions are welcome.


----------



## Evshrug

Yamaha receivers include Silent Cinema for surround processing: I tweaked and found settings I liked, but it's better suited for movies than FPS games IMO, so I preferred to fed my Yamaha from my Creative's output. I probably could've survived just feeding an HDMI cable from my computer to the receiver, let the receiver be a DAC and amp. Either way you can use the receiver's remote to control volume and tone from afar, and a wireless keyboard/mouse or smartphone app such as Logitech's Touch Mouse app to control your computer. Obviously you would want the right tool for the job.


----------



## badhomaks

Since it says that xear 3d and similar things allow the use of eax in games, does that mean that you can run almost any game in EAX 5.0 with that technology?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





badhomaks said:


> Can someone give me a quick rundown of the upgrades in sound cards for gaming in the past 13 years? It seems that only EAX became 5.0 from 1.0 or something like that and that's it.


 
   
  It's a bit complicated, to say the least...especially if you want me to go back to the DOS days of competing sound card models. Seriously, there's plenty of discussion over at VOGONS and the Quest Studios forum as to which sound cards to go for and what to avoid, and not many people agree where the various Sound Blaster iterations are concerned. (Then you get into more exotic hardware like the Gravis Ultrasound...)
   
  Here's the gist of it, where 3D audio under Windows is concerned:
   
  -DirectSound3D was introduced in DirectX 3, but Microsoft made this stupid decision to make it only work with its own 3D algorithm at first.
  -Aureal A3D and possibly other APIs were introduced in response to that, until Microsoft reversed their decision with DirectX 5 and made DirectSound3D audio coordinates usable by any 3D audio technology, be it Aureal, Creative, or anyone else's.
  -Creative introduced EAX reverb/chorus/occlusion extensions to DirectSound3D later. Almost all devices support EAX 2.0, as it's basically part of DirectSound3D itself, but EAX 3.0 onward went Creative-only.
  -OpenAL, yet another 3D audio API, was being developed for 3D sound in Linux game ports to my knowledge, but was eventually scooped up by Creative as their audio API of choice. Good move, too, seeing as DirectSound3D got the axe when Microsoft rewrote the sound stack for Windows Vista, while OpenAL remained intact due to its OS-independent nature.
   
  As for what sound cards support what:
   
  -As mentioned earlier, pretty much everything supports EAX 2.0, and also A3D 1.0. Even cheap Realtek codecs.
  -Only Aureal Vortex2-based cards support A3D 2.0 and 3.0. I don't know of many games that really utilized the wavetracing and other features those versions had to offer, though.
  -Out of Creative's offerings, the Live! series is limited to EAX 2.0, the Audigy line supports EAX 4.0, and the X-Fi line offers EAX 5.0. They also offer software driver packages like X-Fi MB that offer EAX 4/5 support on paper, but in practice, any game that actually uses EAX 5 in the first place (like Battlefield 2) doesn't really sound right on anything other than a real X-Fi card in Game Mode.


----------



## Impulse

Hey Nameless, I'm kinda confused by a discussion we were having on MLE's thread but it's really rather OT over there so I'm just gonna link it here and maybe you can shed some light... I know half of it is based on generalizations and assumptions off what current/future games are doing but still.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Retrieved from MLE's thread:
   
  Quote: 





impulse said:


> Yeah, AFAIK orthos have a completely flat impedance curve that shouldn't interact with a high output impedance... (only relatively high in the STX's case, not like it's an OTL) I think I read somewhere the amp component on the E9/STX started out life as part of hardware used on DSL lines? Heh...
> 
> I'm into retro gaming, I just don't have the time or dedication to build rigs exclusively for it... If it hasn't been re-released on Steam or I can't get it working on Virtualbox I give up.
> 
> ...


 
   
  If that Diamond Monster Sound card is an MX300 (Aureal Vortex2 AU8830-based), then color me interested. I'd still prefer the Aureal SQ2500 if I can find it, but it's not that big of a deal to get one specifically. I just happen to be using a Turtle Beach Montego II because that's what a local computer store had to offer for dirt cheap; I sift through old hardware for things like that.
   
  Now, as for your following questions, we need to clear up the kind of processing that the game engine's doing to the sound in software:
   
  -Reverb/chorus/occlusion/etc., the stuff that used to be the domain of EAX. It's easy to do all that in software now, and there's no interference with CMSS-3D, DH, etc., unless DH is set to DH3 mode with ridiculous reverb levels adding to what's already in the game audio.
  -Actual sound positioning. The thing is, most games these days position sounds by telling them how loud to play over a given 7.1 speaker position, and nothing more. That is why we want CMSS-3D, DH, etc. for these games still, as the surround channels aren't downmixed properly without them (you won't hear anything coming from those channels), and setting the game itself to use stereo generally results in only left/right audio panning because there are only two speakers to adjust the volume of.
   
  I still have yet to find a game that provides a native binaural headphone mix in software. Even though FMOD has a supposed HRTF feature, it's just some kind of lowpass filter for sounds behind you, not a real HRTF-based mix. Even A3D, DS3D, and OAL games technically don't offer native binaural mixes, in the sense that they're not really mixing the game audio-the sound card (or software audio renderer, in cases like Rapture3D) is doing the mixing based on the 3D coordinates given.
   
  If we want proper 3D binaural audio to survive, we're going to have to push the popular middleware developers to add it natively to FMOD, Wwise, etc., since I don't see the game development industry at large moving back to OpenAL for whatever reason. If it works out as well as I hope, then even console games would have a native binaural headphone mix for once.


----------



## Impulse

namelesspfg said:


> -Actual sound positioning. The thing is, most games these days position sounds by telling them how loud to play over a given 7.1 speaker position, and nothing more. That is why we want CMSS-3D, DH, etc. for these games still, as the surround channels aren't downmixed properly without them (you won't hear anything coming from those channels), and setting the game itself to use stereo generally results in only left/right audio panning because there are only two speakers to adjust the volume of
> 
> I still have yet to find a game that provides a native binaural headphone mix in software. Even though FMOD has a supposed HRTF feature, it's just some kind of lowpass filter for sounds behind you, not a real HRTF-based mix. Even A3D, DS3D, and OAL games technically don't offer native binaural mixes, in the sense that they're not really mixing the game audio-the sound card (or software audio renderer, in cases like Rapture3D) is doing the mixing based on the 3D coordinates given.




Okay, that's what I thought originally but yesterday's discussion threw me off... So realistically, CMSS-3D won't have a positional advantage over DH with any modern title (in the technical sense) since they're all just gonna feed 5.1/7.1 data into either scheme? I imaging some games don't even manage that much and you just end up with up-mixed virtual surround from a stereo signal yeah? (I'm guessing those are the games where I didn't care for CMSS/DH)





namelesspfg said:


> If we want proper 3D binaural audio to survive, we're going to have to push the popular middleware developers to add it natively to FMOD, Wwise, etc., since I don't see the game development industry at large moving back to OpenAL for whatever reason. If it works out as well as I hope, then even console games would have a native binaural headphone mix for once.




So if that were to happen, then we wouldn't even need CMSS-3D or DH no? The game itself would presumably just go to that binaural mix when you tell it you're using headphones instead of selecting 5.1/7.1 as usual... (please correct me if I'm wrong ) Is there any signs we're actually headed in that direction? I don't know why it hasn't happened, seems like such an obvious path with today's rigs where extra cores and cycles are just sitting there idle.

I mean, gaming with headphones is so prevalent right now due to voice chat and living situations. It's not even about the noise, my PC's just never gonna be in a spot where a speaker surround system fits, (unless I build an HTPC). I imagine it's a fairly common scenario, specially with so many people moving to laptops (never!). Plus it's like win/win, console gamers get something they've never had before (without extra hardware, and consoles can definitely spare the processing power by now), and PC gamers get to more easily decouple all audio duties from inside their systems.

In a sense it seems kinda similar to the situation with game physics... There's already one GPU-accelerated scheme that works pretty good, but it's proprietary and NV's never gonna open it up. So most games just do a passable job of it in software and maybe throw out a bone for PhysX (like Baman AA), with a few exceptions (like Borderlands 2 which made me wanna switch to NV cards but my 6950s aren't worth upgrading yet).

At least NV has a reason to keep throwing money at PhysX, but ultimately it's on the same road as DS3D and OAL, albeit for different reasons (almost opposite reasons).


P.S. I'll dig up my old cards and figure out what I've got btw, I'll let ya know. Thanks for all the insight btw.


----------



## Evshrug

impulse said:


> Okay, that's what I thought originally but yesterday's discussion threw me off... So realistically, CMSS-3D won't have a positional advantage over DH with any modern title (in the technical sense) since they're all just gonna feed 5.1/7.1 data into either scheme? I imaging some games don't even manage that much and you just end up with up-mixed virtual surround from a stereo signal yeah? (I'm guessing those are the games where I didn't care for CMSS/DH).



FWIR, the most recent games that offer height positional cues (advantage) either have openAL buried inside (like Borderlands2), or have DS3D or some other surround API translated to an OpenAl wrapper (I think this is what ALchemy does, right?) because they were built-in to the game engine like games from Valve's Source engine or the Unreal engine. Did Hawks 2 have 3D audio coordinates?




impulse said:


> So if that were to happen, then we wouldn't even need CMSS-3D or DH no? The game itself would presumably just go to that binaural mix when you tell it you're using headphones instead of selecting 5.1/7.1 as usual... (please correct me if I'm wrong ) Is there any signs we're actually headed in that direction? I don't know why it hasn't happened, seems like such an obvious path with today's rigs where extra cores and cycles are just sitting there idle.
> 
> I mean, gaming with headphones is so prevalent right now due to voice chat and living situations. It's not even about the noise, my PC's just never gonna be in a spot where a speaker surround system fits, (unless I build an HTPC). I imagine it's a fairly common scenario, specially with so many people moving to laptops (never!). Plus it's like win/win, console gamers get something they've never had before (without extra hardware, and consoles can definitely spare the processing power by now), and PC gamers get to more easily decouple all audio duties from inside their systems.
> 
> ...




So, do you have the same sense that I do? That, now more than ever, headphone surround is a ripe open market? I mean seriously, it could EASILY be integrated into the next gen consoles that are on the horizon (though maybe too late for PS4... Sony's gaming Facebook, really?). On a side note, you may be interested to know that Tom's Hardware recently published an article about how NVidia has licensed PhysX to the PS4, interesting because the PS4 runs on AMD hardware, but I think NVidia is making the savvy move I'd been raving for Creative to take where they get their tech into consoles, so that games actually take advantage of the features.

PS, for me, it IS time to upgrade my graphics card. Suggest getting a GTX 570 for $180 (before a $30 rebate) or buying a $175 HD7850 which includes Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite? I really would love to have PhysX, but of course I like games... I think Bioshock will have PhysX, and maybe they'll have 3D audio like the first game (dunno about the 2nd).


----------



## Impulse

Yeah I think there's a huge un-exploited market, it just hasn't congealed yet (so to speak), too many peripheral/gamer companies & brands milking it from the side with gimmicky headsets in the meantime. Hadn't heard that about PhysX, on the one hand it doesn't surprise me from NV... They lost the hardware bid and still managed to find a way to milk money out of that console, it's pretty savvy, on the other hand it's kind of a diss to PC gamers if they don't eventually cooperate in some way to get a cross-vendor standard for GPU-accelerated physics.

I really haven't kept up with GPU pricing and news, tho I guess nothing new's been released in a while (Titan or whatever aside)... Shouldn't we be well into next-gen GTX 7xx/HD 8xxx by now? I bought my two 6950s for like $235 each, and that was just over two years ago. They weren't even brand new, had been out for a few months by then. The GTX 570 is it's contemporary and maybe on par with it or slightly faster depending on game and res no? My point is, current pricing/performance ratio's just weak... 'Course that's easy for me to say because my cards are still getting it done for the most part, can't play some of the newer games comfortably in EF anymore but I've still got a few 1-2 year old titles to get thru anyway.

Is there any news about next gen cards? Skimming a Titan review it seemed like NV was expecting something soon from AMD and it didn't materialize... Best time to buy is a month or two after a new line is out IMO, you either get a brand new card that will last you a couple years or you get a bargain on previous gen stuff. If you absolutely must upgrade now neither of those two bundles sound bad tho, just keep in mind you're basically paying $25 for the two games... In 2-3 months tops you can probably pick up at least one of the two for the same price. 

I don't even remember how the 7850 stacks up, but always pick the fastest card(s) for the money IMO, then from those find the best bundle/warranty/HSF. I'll pay a slight premium ($10-15) for the latter but not more. Anyway, on-topic:




evshrug said:


> FWIR, the most recent games that offer height positional cues (advantage) either have openAL buried inside (like Borderlands2), or have DS3D or some other surround API translated to an OpenAl wrapper (I think this is what ALchemy does, right?) because they were built-in to the game engine like games from Valve's Source engine or the Unreal engine. Did Hawks 2 have 3D audio coordinates?




I thought that current versions of Half Life and Valve's other Source games actually _didn't_ do anything but 5.1/7.1 mixing_ even _if you forced it thru ALchemy (least that's the impression I got on Steam forums a while ago), though the engine definitely did support DS3D at one point in it's life...

I guess there's a way to hack it in tho? Or do you have to go thru some sort of extreme (for the average gamer) like running it on WinXP?

It makes sense that Borderlands 2 still supports OpenAl I guess since it uses the Unreal engine... Kinda sad that the games running on engines that are getting long in the tooth are potentially the better sounding ones.


----------



## Evshrug

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/PhysX-APEX-CUDA-PlayStation-SDK,21402.html

The GTX 570, GTX 660, and HD7850 are all about par, trading games where they are better optimized, though the 660 eeks out a bit ahead. The GTX 570 has the most memory bandwidth, but I'm not sure how much that matters. The GTX 570 costs about the same as the HD7850, but then it has a $30 rebate attached to it. I feel like, long run, I'll be happier with the 570, and later I can pick up another to SLI if I want more power, but basically that one card has enough power to impress me right now. In the short run though Tomb Raider looks like an awesome game, and who knows how long the multiplayer will stay alive? And I've got a LARGE backlog of games to play... Basically, I never owned a gaming PC except that one time my mom let me install Star Wars Podracing, X-wing vs Tie Fighter, and Falcon 4.0 on her desktop, which we affectionately called "the rock" until I dropped it off for recycling this year.

I don't know anything about the next-gen cards, do they usually cycle in less than a year? Seems like both companies only just released their mid-range cards...

I wonder if the new Unreal engine (featured in "the Samaritan" demo video) will still incorporate OpenAL. As an open-source API, it's not like it's expensive...


----------



## Impulse

They just released their mid range cards? The GTX 660 came out like August of last year and it was way late to the party, I think it was basically one of the last current gen cards released (GHz editions and all that re-release crap notwithstanding)... The 670 came out last May, it's now almost April. At one point the GPU market was crazier than like the Android phone market, new launches happened like every 8 months. It hit a lull around umm, 2003/2004? NV re-released their 8800 line like half a dozen times, not even kidding (that's how far we've cycled tho, where product models for A have started to look like those from B 10 yrs ago, heh). Later on they settled on yearly releases like clockwork. 

They're kinda due by now, specially if you take into account the fact that NV was trailing AMD last year... The 79xx came out in February and enjoyed a couple of months without direct competitors. The 78xx came out last March!

Anyway, 2GB was one of the motivations for me on the 6950 vs 570 at the time, but you're probably looking at 1GB 7850's and RAM isn't nearly as relevant if you're not playing at a crazy multi-display high res... At the same time, the 570 is one generation behind already and that might affect availability if you're looking to SLI as an upgrade path (tho that's rarely worth it IMO, unless new cards fall way behind schedule). OTOH, I've been reading for a while how SLI is often smoother than CF. My 6950 are the first SLI/CF setup I've used btw. Future proofing and planning ahead and all that is generally just pointless, which is why I said I'd take the fastest card for the money. 

If you're dying to play those two games tho (I know I am) AND you'll actually play them as soon as you can get them (I know I probably won't ) then the $25 premium is a good deal.

Kind of a toss up really, the newer card should enjoy better driver support and optimizations but AMD's always lagging NV in that regard. It's not as bad as when they were ATI but still... The GPU market has a surprising amount of parity compared to others. The last card I got before the 6950's was a GTX 260 and I basically settled on it because it was shorter than the HD 4970 and fit better in my case, they were that close in every other regard, heh. I've had way more NV cards tho, mostly by chance and because they were dominant earlier than ATI/AMD. First 3D card was a 3dfx Voodoo (the original one). I think it went into the same 133 MHz Pentium (1) rig as the Monster 3D audio card I was telling Nameless about, or was it the PII... Ok, imma stop aging myself now...


----------



## Evshrug

I remember our first discrete graphics card, I think it was impressive-ish for having 1 MB of VRAM. By the time PodRacing came out (also available on the N64), the card could barely keep up, lol. I said it *seems* the mid-range 660 and 660ti just recently came out (recent enough that the price hasn't dropped much), but maybe it only seems that way to me because last year was so frustratingly devoid of significant moments of progress in my life. My grandfather wanted me to sell real estate, random companies wanted me to sell Internet and health insurance, my girlfriend wanted me to sell photography, I didn't want to sell anything just work on generating new stuff for other people to sell... meh.

Maybe we'll see new stuff soon... In Tom's article on the upcoming HD 7790, the author basically said it will be the last card of this generation. Maybe they're having a hard time making faster, more economical processors? Or maybe the PC market hasn't been very profitable since the Xbox 360 and the PS2 before that hit their strides as systems that provided massive libraries of games designed to work on the same hardware over long time periods? I'm "new" to the PC gaming enthusiast scene, so I appreciate your tips about timing.


----------



## ninjikiran

might sound stupid but on the phoebus sound card, how do I properly set up Dolby HTv4 to always output the best surround mix.  Its confusing, with little visuals as to if its working properly and even less documentation.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> And I've got a LARGE backlog of games to play... Basically, I never owned a gaming PC except that one time my mom let me install Star Wars Podracing, X-wing vs Tie Fighter, and Falcon 4.0 on her desktop, which we affectionately called "the rock" until I dropped it off for recycling this year.


 
   
  Falcon 4.0, of all things...if you've still got the original CD lying around, you could set up Falcon BMS 4.32 with it!
   
  That'll make great use of your new PC, though the sheer attention to detail of the F-16C's subsystems means that you're gonna be spending the first several hours just learning how to fly the thing...and you're gonna want a full-fledged HOTAS. Preferably a Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar modded to the gills like I had once, but that's very expensive when you start getting into the force-sensing mods and whatnot.
   
  Still, you said your family mostly consisted of Mac users back then, right? It's not like the Classic Mac OS didn't have its fair share of game ports, though there were things that still remained exclusive to DOS and Windows...(and also the other way around, for that matter.)


----------



## Impulse

Didn't Bungie (of Halo) start off on Mac? Kind of ironic they'd end up developing for MS' console...


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





impulse said:


> Didn't Bungie (of Halo) start off on Mac? Kind of ironic they'd end up developing for MS' console...


 
   
  They did. Some of their older titles like Pathways Into Darkness still haven't been ported from the Classic Mac OS.
   
  Heck, Halo itself was introduced as a Mac game-an RTS, at that-but then it went all third-person shooter and Mac/Windows, and then Microsoft decided that their Xbox needed a killer app, saw what Bungie was doing, and the rest is history.


----------



## Evshrug

impulse said:


> Didn't Bungie (of Halo) start off on Mac? Kind of ironic they'd end up developing for MS' console...



Oooooh yeah baby, I loved me some Marathon and Myth back in the day. A lot of what Halo did as plot points seem lifted straight from Marathon games, though of course they feel completely different. There was/is an open-source update of the Marathon engine, and Bungie released the trilogy for free a few years back, so you can go back and play some of the best written FPS story (in my opinion) on Windows too. It's cool to play all three, but I particularly liked Marathon: Infinity because of the non-linear, parallel universe path story line, and of course there was some awesome user-made content using the Forge and Anvil tools. *EAT THE PATH*


Nameless,
I do have the original CD, though keyboard and Saitek Cyborg joystick were good enough for me. There were like 4 years where ALL I would play was flight sims. I really want to play FreeSPACE 2 (missed that gem), and go back and play the Lucasarts X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter. I believe there was a very detailed full conversion made for Freespace2 released recently that creates a Battlestar Galactica campaign! Gog.com is cool


----------



## Merzbro

I have kind of a ridiculous query.

 Would I be able to use 2 Creative X-Fi Titanium cards in conjunction with one another?
   
  I.e. If I had one of them configured to work with:
   
  Sound Card ---> External DAC (via S/PDIF) ---> External Amp ---> Headphones
   
  And the other configured for connecting into a 5.1 receiver as sound for my TV over HDMI?


----------



## NamelessPFG

It's possible to have different sound cards running simultaneously in the same computer, I know that much...but I've never dared to try running two IDENTICAL sound cards of the same model in the same computer. Especially not X-Fi cards.
   
  Actually, the question at hand here should be whether or not the two outputs need to be playing the same source audio simultaneously (and I can't think of many reasons why anyone would need speakers AND headphones playing the same thing in the same room). If they do, then you're either going to have an audio mix suited for 5.1 speakers, or a mix suited for headphones with binaural HRTF processing-not both.
   
  The only way I can think of around this is if the receiver has an S/PDIF passthrough, which could then connect to a Dolby Headphone processor that then powers your headphones (maybe with a proper headphone amp in between). Then you're just outputting the same 5.1 stream over S/PDIF all the time, and the DH processor's doing the headphone surround dirty work instead of the sound card itself.


----------



## Merzbro

Thanks for your reply.
   
  It's not that I want to use them simultaneously,  but I want both of them connected to my PC at the same time so I can switch between audio outputs without swapping cables around.
   
  I was thinking if I didn't use an external DAC, I could connect a heaphone amp via RCA and the 5.1 via S/PDIF?
   
  Would I be gaining much if anything from an external DAC; say the Schiit Bifrost, compared to the X-Fi Titanium HD?
   
  Also have you tried CMSS-3D with console games at all? I know my PS3 has an optical out that could connect to the X-Fi.


----------



## NamelessPFG

If you didn't insist on an external DAC for the headphones, then yes, you could feed the headphone amp with the RCA outputs and leave S/PDIF to the 5.1 speaker system.
   
  The X-Fi Titanium HD is already a very competent DAC in and of itself; a comparison with the lauded JDS Labs-built ObjectiveDAC, once volume-matched, left me hard-pressed to tell any differences between the two, no matter how hard I listened. I certainly don't feel the need to use an external DAC with it.
   
  As for using CMSS-3D Headphone with console games, here's the problem: S/PDIF inputs on sound cards generally *cannot decode Dolby Digital or DTS*, so it's not like you can use the sound card as a makeshift Mixamp. You either get a stereo PCM signal (which is pointless to apply surround processing to), or total silence. That's why I keep the SU-DH1 around for my consoles.
   
  Believe me, I'd love to know about a means to decode Dolby Digital and DTS streams into their native six-channel format that the computer can then do as it pleases with, but countless people have tried over the years and failed to find a low-latency solution suitable for gaming, if a working solution at all.


----------



## Merzbro

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> As for using CMSS-3D Headphone with console games, here's the problem: S/PDIF inputs on sound cards generally *cannot decode Dolby Digital or DTS*, so it's not like you can use the sound card as a makeshift Mixamp. You either get a stereo PCM signal (which is pointless to apply surround processing to), or total silence. That's why I keep the SU-DH1 around for my consoles.


 
   
  It seems that the SU-DH1 is impossible to find these days and the Astro A40 Mixamp doesn't support DTS, is that a big deal for gaming?
   
  Would there be any point to using an external amp with either of these?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





merzbro said:


> It seems that the SU-DH1 is impossible to find these days and the Astro A40 Mixamp doesn't support DTS, is that a big deal for gaming?
> 
> Would there be any point to using an external amp with either of these?


 
   
  Not having DTS support doesn't seem to be an issue for gaming, as I know the PS3 will re-encode audio into Dolby Digital if necessary. (If DTS is enabled in the audio options, however, some games will output DTS instead of Dolby for whatever reason.) Meanwhile, the X360 allegedly standardizes on Dolby Digital, much like the original Xbox before it did.
   
  External amps are still useful; I don't know about the Mixamp, but the little SU-DH1 is definitely weak sauce. Not like you can expect much out of such a little device, where half its size is basically the dual AA battery compartment. I just run the headphone-out into my A/V receiver's inputs, the one whose sole purpose is to provide speaker-level output for my Stax transformer box to work with.


----------



## Merzbro

I just found out that the Wii U only supports LCPM over HDMI. 
   
  Not that I have any plans on getting one but I can't think of any way that headphone users could get surround sound from that.
   
  Hopefully the PS4 keeps Toslink.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





merzbro said:


> I just found out that the Wii U only supports LCPM over HDMI.
> 
> Not that I have any plans on getting one but I can't think of any way that headphone users could get surround sound from that.


 
   
  There are at least two ways:
   
  -A/V receiver with built-in headphone surround processing (Believe it or not, a few do have Dolby Headphone.)
  -Smyth Realiser A8 (Sorry about your wallet.)


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> ...
> 
> As for using CMSS-3D Headphone with console games, here's the problem: S/PDIF inputs on sound cards generally *cannot decode Dolby Digital or DTS*, so it's not like you can use the sound card as a makeshift Mixamp. You either get a stereo PCM signal (which is pointless to apply surround processing to), or total silence. That's why I keep the SU-DH1 around for my consoles.
> 
> Believe me, I'd love to know about a means to decode Dolby Digital and DTS streams into their native six-channel format that the computer can then do as it pleases with, but countless people have tried over the years and failed to find a low-latency solution suitable for gaming, if a working solution at all.



That's why you bought the Recon3D USB, right? If only they made a device like that, for you, with CMSS-3D, right?
I think I read that the Astro Mixamp can also input surround audio through USB, but there were some quality issues from that?

Merzbro, I'm not recommending the Recon3D for your situation btw, because it only has the one 3.5mm headphone output. I had mine simultaneously hooked up to my PC and Xbox 360 for inputs, then amped the headphone out on the Recon3D using a tube amp, but I wasn't switching between speakers and headphones. Well, kinda, I plugged in my desktop computer speakers often to the headphone jack, but not a home theater. I'm sure you could think of creative solutions... Audio sounded maybe a tad crisper fed digitally to my receiver (then my headphones), but sending the analogue signal of my Recon3D USB through the receiver's amp sounded pretty good too, and I was happy enough to with the trade for Creative's surround processing. A soundcard would have a better DAC and crisper signal than the Recon3D USB, at least I expect so (haven't tested it yet, tho the Recon3D sounded leagues better and cleaner than my onboard PC audio).

Too-Long; Didn't Read: you'd be best off with an amp or amp/DAC with multiple inputs (like a nice integrated receiver), hook up everything to that including your PC soundcard. Enjoy a more integrated system


----------



## Merzbro

> Originally Posted by *NamelessPFG* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> -A/V receiver with built-in headphone surround processing (Believe it or not, a few do have Dolby Headphone.)
> -Smyth Realiser A8 (Sorry about your wallet.)


 
   
  Interesting, I don't suppose you'd be able to tell me what the cheapest one is?
   
  The Realiser looks like an incredible piece of engineering, slightly out of my price range though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



    
      Quote:



evshrug said:


> Too-Long; Didn't Read: you'd be best off with an amp or amp/DAC with multiple inputs (like a nice integrated receiver), hook up everything to that including your PC soundcard. Enjoy a more integrated system


 
   
  What I've decided on is an X-Fi Titanium HD to a Schiit Asgard to a pair of Sennheisser 650s for my PC audio, and an Astro A40 mixamp for my PS3.
  I don't really want to bother with setting up surround sound speakers if can just use headphones and get the same effect.


----------



## Impulse

evshrug said:


> I really want to play FreeSPACE 2 (missed that gem), and go back and play the Lucasarts X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter. I believe there was a very detailed full conversion made for Freespace2 released recently that creates a Battlestar Galactica campaign! Gog.com is cool




Freespace 2 rocked so much... I think that was like the last great big budget PC space sim no?

I'm ashamed to say I ended up copying it for like two or three friends (this was senior year or first year of college for us, neither morality nor funds were plentiful  ). Probably contributed to the genre's demise!

I'm gonna have to check that BSG mod sometime...


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> That's why you bought the Recon3D USB, right? If only they made a device like that, for you, with CMSS-3D, right?
> I think I read that the Astro Mixamp can also input surround audio through USB, but there were some quality issues from that?


 
   
  I bought the Recon3D USB specifically for PC gaming review purposes, not expecting to keep it, because I knew I'd be looking for things that 99% of buyers and reviewers wouldn't be looking for. Too bad there aren't any buyers as a result of my (and Mad Lust Envy's) findings.
   
  What I wanted to know is if its OpenAL support was any better or worse than the USB "X-Fi" devices, let alone a real X-Fi card with the EMU20k1/20k2. It most certainly wasn't in that regard; Creative used the same software OpenAL device they do on their other USB devices and the X-Fi MB software suite. Then there's the matter of THX TruStudio Surround just not doing it for me; even software-mode CMSS-3D Headphone on older USB "X-Fi" devices seemed to fare a bit better.
   
  Also, the S/PDIF input isn't usable by PCs at all (doesn't show up under the Recording tab), it can't decode DTS, and it can't decode Dolby Pro Logic II, either. (For that matter, the analog aux-in is useless in the console modes, so don't bother using it with a Wii or PS2.)
   
  Finally, having CMSS-3D Headphone on a console surround processor would be absolutely pointless if all it gets are 5.1/7.1 sources. That just brings it down to Dolby Headphone level. For that matter, Dolby Headphone itself would be just as competitive, perhaps moreso, if it could actually utilize the 3D positional audio coordinates in DirectSound3D and OpenAL titles, but it's designed to simulate a 5.1/7.1 theater.
   
  Quote: 





merzbro said:


> Interesting, I don't suppose you'd be able to tell me what the cheapest one is?
> 
> The Realiser looks like an incredible piece of engineering, slightly out of my price range though.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Yeah, you could say that flipping on CMSS-3D Headphone with a pair of AD700s on my head forever killed my interest in surround speakers.
   
  As for affordable Dolby Headphone receivers, look on eBay for stuff like the Harmon Kardon AVR 254/354 and Marantz SR5001/SR5002, among others. They're confirmed to have DH, and should also have HDMI inputs.
   
  Quote: 





impulse said:


> Freespace 2 rocked so much... I think that was like the last great big budget PC space sim no?
> 
> I'm ashamed to say I ended up copying it for like two or three friends (this was senior year or first year of college for us, neither morality nor funds were plentiful
> 
> ...


 
   
  There were still a few notable ones afterward, like Independence War 2. Possibly Freelancer (if the use of KB+M controls at the total expense of joystick support didn't put you off entirely) and DarkStar One as well. Still, none had the sheer following that Freespace 2 did...and then Volition hasn't been able to make the planned third installment for over a decade, along with Descent IV. Great...
   
  Definitely go grab the two Independence War titles off GOG if you're looking for more space "sim" action. Just note that they're very different from most titles in the genre, what with the Newtonian flight model and piloting a corvette instead of a small space fighter and all.
   
  We can only hope Star Citizen delivers on all those promises...it better, for the amount they've raised through crowdfunding!


----------



## Ban13

Hello,
  I couldn't find anything relevant, so I'll just ask: how to record a resulting 3D sound coming from an OpenAL game with full hardware acceleration (a BF2 mod). The problem is Windows doesn't hear anything because the game talks directly to OpenAL driver.
  Thank you!


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ban13 said:


> I couldn't find anything relevant, so I'll just ask: how to record a resulting 3D sound coming from an OpenAL game with full hardware acceleration (a BF2 mod). The problem is Windows doesn't hear anything because the game talks directly to OpenAL driver.


 
   
  The "What U Hear" input should work, as it records exactly what the sound card outputs and doesn't rely on the Windows audio stack for it.
   
  At the very least, it's always worked for me.


----------



## wizkas

I'm buying a new sound card and I have some questions. I'm trying to decide between an x-fi titanium HD or a Soundblaster Z. From what I've gathered x-fi has better surround for games that support hardware acceleration and for games that don't x-fi and z will sound the same? Are games from now on going to stop supporting hardware acceleration?
   
  Also, alot of people seem to complain about having to switch between headphones and speakers with an x-fi and that is kind of a dealbreaker for me if it cannot be circumvented some way. My keyboard has a goldplated 3.5 mm stereo extension built into it so if i plugged that into the soundcard would I only have to remove my headphones from the 3.5 mm port on my keyboard to use my speakers or would I have to go behind my computer anyway to change it? Also, if I plugged the soundcard into an amp would this circumvent the problem? Maybe if I used the rca outs?
   
  I hope this is the case because the z kind of rubs me the wrong way, in't it basically just a glorified extra processor that runs programs that I could just run on my regular processor? It also looks like a toy and the board itself has almost nothing on it, what am I really paying for there?


----------



## Impulse

Your first few questions have been discussed recently, and it's a little more complicated than having hardware acceleration or not (which is rather irrelevant these days really)... I'd suggest reading the first post of the thread and the last couple dozen posts. 

Most games these days do all audio processing in software and can then output a 5.1/7.1 signal (like for a home theater setup) that headphone surround emulation schemes like CMSS-3D & Dolby Headphone can use, which of those you prefer is subjective. A few games, mostly running on older engines can go a bit beyond that and only X-Fi cards can potentially take advantage of that thru CMSS/ALchemy. The Z series cards don't even use CMSS nor DH, they use a new algorithm that's gotten mixed impressions... That's my generally simplified take on the situation.

The X-Fi Ti HD has discrete headphone and speaker outputs but the latter are muted when headphones are plugged in. There's no getting around that, at all, your keyboard's audio extension would make no difference because the card can't sense if there's something plugged in at the end (just that the kb is plugged into the headphone out).

That being said, no one says you HAVE to use the rear headphone output... You could just go from the RCA speaker output to an amp, and if the amp has speaker-pre outputs that'll facilitate everything. 

I'm not sure how well those outputs handle headphones plugged straight into them, might wanna ask someone else... Low sensitivity ones might be ok tho, in which case you could plug the keyboard's extension into that and then just plug in your headphones or speakers into the keyboard depending on what you're using, crude but effective.

From the way you're describing the Z cards I think you have them confused with the Recon 3D line... There's quite a few components on the Zx and ZxR, and it's still a vastly better DAC than most on board solutions. They also allow switching between outputs in software, which controls a hardware relay like an AVR receiver or the Xonar STX (you'll hear the little servo click when you switch).

Not that I'm advocating for or against the Z line... Personally I'd go for a Xonar card if you want a cheap all-in solution and you don't care too much about older games (even the lowly DGX has a decent discrete amp), or for the Xonar Essence STX if you want a better amp and you're using higher impedance headphones, or for the X-Fi Ti HD if you're sure you're getting a separate/external headphone amp.


----------



## Ban13

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> The "What U Hear" input should work, as it records exactly what the sound card outputs and doesn't rely on the Windows audio stack for it.
> 
> At the very least, it's always worked for me.


 
   
  "What U Hear" doesn't work. It only captures main menu sounds.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





wizkas said:


> I'm buying a new sound card and I have some questions. I'm trying to decide between an x-fi titanium HD or a Soundblaster Z. From what I've gathered x-fi has better surround for games that support hardware acceleration and for games that don't x-fi and z will sound the same? Are games from now on going to stop supporting hardware acceleration?
> 
> Also, alot of people seem to complain about having to switch between headphones and speakers with an x-fi and that is kind of a dealbreaker for me if it cannot be circumvented some way. My keyboard has a goldplated 3.5 mm stereo extension built into it so if i plugged that into the soundcard would I only have to remove my headphones from the 3.5 mm port on my keyboard to use my speakers or would I have to go behind my computer anyway to change it? Also, if I plugged the soundcard into an amp would this circumvent the problem? Maybe if I used the rca outs?
> 
> I hope this is the case because the z kind of rubs me the wrong way, in't it basically just a glorified extra processor that runs programs that I could just run on my regular processor? It also looks like a toy and the board itself has almost nothing on it, what am I really paying for there?


 
   
  Quote: 





impulse said:


> Your first few questions have been discussed recently, and it's a little more complicated than having hardware acceleration or not (which is rather irrelevant these days really)... I'd suggest reading the first post of the thread and the last couple dozen posts.
> 
> Most games these days do all audio processing in software and can then output a 5.1/7.1 signal (like for a home theater setup) that headphone surround emulation schemes like CMSS-3D & Dolby Headphone can use, which of those you prefer is subjective. A few games, mostly running on older engines can go a bit beyond that and only X-Fi cards can potentially take advantage of that thru CMSS/ALchemy. The Z series cards don't even use CMSS nor DH, they use a new algorithm that's gotten mixed impressions... That's my generally simplified take on the situation.
> 
> ...


 
   
  That's a pretty good summary of the situation in Impulse's second paragraph.
   
  I should re-iterate that the whole "headphone/speaker switching" issue with the Titanium HD does NOT affect other X-Fi cards; the X-Fi Forte (and presumably most other PCIe X-Fi cards) has a checkbox for muting the speaker output or not when something's plugged into the headphone jack, and if that's checked off, both play simultaneously. As to why Creative didn't bother offering such a simple feature with the Titanium HD, I have no idea; I just consider myself fortunate that, as a headphone-only user, it's not a problem at all for me.
   
  Even then, Impulse's suggestion is a good one. I just leave my Titanium HD's RCA outputs connected to an old A/V receiver which serves as part of my headphone amp setup, but I could, in theory, connect some loudspeakers to that same receiver if I wanted to and just switch things up through the Titanium HD's control panel and a button or two on the receiver.
   
  Quote: 





ban13 said:


> "What U Hear" doesn't work. It only captures main menu sounds.


 
   
  Is that so? I'm gonna have to look into this myself...wouldn't hurt for me to test some games other than BF2 while I'm at it.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Kinda baffling how Creative abandoned CMSS-3D when no other solution comes close to it at the lowest level (pure virtualiziation). So they drop everything and bring SBX. Did the engineer/designer team change? What happened? Why would they abandon a solution that is still the most accurate in the market? They could have built upon it, refined it, even cooperate with FMOD. 

The PS4 has a confirmed dedicated audio processor, the rumoured Durango an even "better" (due to the next kinect) one. 
Maybe the PC can profit from this as it did from multicore utilization in games thanks to consoles. The question is. Will MS deliver a standard in a future DirectX?


----------



## Evshrug

impulse said:


> Freespace 2 rocked so much... I think that was like the last great big budget PC space sim no?
> 
> I'm ashamed to say I ended up copying it for like two or three friends (this was senior year or first year of college for us, neither morality nor funds were plentiful  ). Probably contributed to the genre's demise!
> 
> I'm gonna have to check that BSG mod sometime...



Hmm, hard to say... Copying games for your friends definitely hurts the developer's bottom line (was the game still "current" when you did this?), and can ruin funding for the next game or put a company out of business. Then again, there's a situation like Starcraft... That first game was shared and distributed like crazy, it kept the game alive in the mindshare of gamers and spread it's popularity like wildfire. I could probably have stolen a copy, but since I could still pick up a physical copy of the battle chest at Walmart (IMO wouldn't be possible if people weren't still playing it like mad), I just bought that instead. Blizzard absolutely doesn't want that to happen again, and has pretty much insured that, BUT Starcraft II is definitely reaping the benefits from the popularity of the first game.

Your actions probably contributed to the death of new games of the genre... but also contributed to why user mods are still made for it and the game still has a following. The genre may well resurface some day (I loved "Galaxy on Fire II" for my iPad!), but right now the mainstream is about getting burnt out on FPS games.




namelesspfg said:


> Yeah, you could say that flipping on CMSS-3D Headphone with a pair of AD700s on my head forever killed my interest in surround speakers.
> 
> As for affordable Dolby Headphone receivers, look on eBay for stuff like the Harmon Kardon AVR 254/354 and Marantz SR5001/SR5002, among others. They're confirmed to have DH, and should also have HDMI inputs.
> 
> ...



Star Citizen?
Independence War? Newtonian physics sounds kinda interesting actually, I loved flying in the Escape Velocity series (a golden, classic retro game that's simply addictive and fun to play).

I haven't played Freelancer, my one friend had it for his PC and I think I played it one time. I loved Starlancer on my Dreamcast, but I think my game glitches on the last level and I can't figure out how to beat it.


----------



## Ban13

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Is that so? I'm gonna have to look into this myself...wouldn't hurt for me to test some games other than BF2 while I'm at it.


 
  Try Project Reality mod for BF2. With the Sound Mod it has BF3 sounds with BF2 audio engine. It's.... amazing. www.realitymod.com


----------



## Evshrug

Ban13,
I feel like if I had to guess anyone had installed the Project Reality mod, it would've been Nameless. Possibly even have contributed to making the mod.

Fegefeuer,
We can only hope. Some interesting tech going into the PS4 for sure, the first time nViDiA actually is giving another platform it's blessing to use PhysX. Who knows, maybe the PS4 will have DH or similar home theater surround simulator? Of course I'd prefer a "gaming" virtual surround processing such as CMSS-3D, because of the whole 5.1 vs 3D thing, but I'll take wider adoption over nothing


----------



## daleb

I'm confused by this... Is their anyway to get the virtual surround sound with a laptop? My laptop comes with Dolby Advanced Audio, but that seems to only work with the speakers (hacks?).
  I bet I'm missing something...


----------



## wlmeng11

Quote: 





daleb said:


> I'm confused by this... Is their anyway to get the virtual surround sound with a laptop? My laptop comes with Dolby Advanced Audio, but that seems to only work with the speakers (hacks?).
> I bet I'm missing something...


 

 Virtual surround sound can usually be done by software, so you wouldn't need any special hardware, although some sound cards probably have their own processing to take load off of the CPU.


----------



## daleb

Quote: 





wlmeng11 said:


> Virtual surround sound can usually be done by software, so you wouldn't need any special hardware, although some sound cards probably have their own processing to take load off of the CPU.


 

 Okay, so what from the first post do I use to do that?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Star Citizen?
> Independence War? Newtonian physics sounds kinda interesting actually, I loved flying in the Escape Velocity series (a golden, classic retro game that's simply addictive and fun to play).
> 
> I haven't played Freelancer, my one friend had it for his PC and I think I played it one time. I loved Starlancer on my Dreamcast, but I think my game glitches on the last level and I can't figure out how to beat it.


 
   
  Star Citizen is an ambitious title from the folks behind Wing Commander that raised MILLIONS through crowd-funding. Not even joking about that. It looks really promising, but I have my doubts as to whether it can live up to the hype in the end.
   
  I haven't played Freelancer myself...or Starlancer, though I did just score the latter in a thrift shop for $3 (along with Ace Combat 04, but that's not a PC game). Thrift stores are hit-and-miss...mostly misses, but when you hit, you can get some great bargains!
   
  Quote: 





ban13 said:


> Try Project Reality mod for BF2. With the Sound Mod it has BF3 sounds with BF2 audio engine. It's.... amazing. www.realitymod.com


 
   
  Amazing Frostbite-era Battlefield sound samples, with the Refractor engine's vastly superior positional audio (and less "unlock everything" crap in the gameplay, to boot)? Sign me up!
   
  Quote: 





evshrug said:


> Ban13,
> I feel like if I had to guess anyone had installed the Project Reality mod, it would've been Nameless. Possibly even have contributed to making the mod.


 
   
  Hah, I wish...can't say I've ever been personally involved in any mod's development.
   
  Quote: 





daleb said:


> I'm confused by this... Is their anyway to get the virtual surround sound with a laptop? My laptop comes with Dolby Advanced Audio, but that seems to only work with the speakers (hacks?).
> I bet I'm missing something...


 
   
  I'm guessing the Dolby Advanced Audio software suite does NOT include Dolby Headphone, otherwise this would be pretty straightforward.
   
  As for possible solutions:
   
  -Buy a USB audio device, something like a Xonar U3 or Recon3D USB.
  -If your laptop has a Realtek audio codec, there are modded drivers with the X-Fi MB software suite (and thus either CMSS-3D Headphone or THX TruStudio Surround) floating around that may work.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Is there a way or workaround to mute the analog out of the Titanium HD in cases I don't need my PC360 headset (aka Singleplayer). That's when I want to to play over the DAC with my HD 800.
The PC360 can lower the volume via the knob on the right ear but at the lowest setting you can still hear something (since the soundcard output will be 100% when using the DAC)


----------



## daleb

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I'm guessing the Dolby Advanced Audio software suite does NOT include Dolby Headphone, otherwise this would be pretty straightforward.
> 
> As for possible solutions:
> 
> ...


 
  No, it doesn't come with Dolby headphone. I wish it did, ugh. Maybe theres a way to set up the dll for that to run through everything?
  
  My laptop does have a realtek, the ALC 271x... According to Realtek's site, that doesn't even exist. Modded version from Acer, maybe? I wonder if these hacked drivers would even work. Is it possible to even attempt that without killing my computer and its audio?


----------



## Impulse

fegefeuer said:


> Is there a way or workaround to mute the analog out of the Titanium HD in cases I don't need my PC360 headset (aka Singleplayer). That's when I want to to play over the DAC with my HD 800.
> The PC360 can lower the volume via the knob on the right ear but at the lowest setting you can still hear something (since the soundcard output will be 100% when using the DAC)




Umm, strange question, generally when you switch all system playback from a sound card to a USB DAC the sound card will be completely muted, and vice versa, unless you're switching in some other way I'm not aware of or enabled it so both sound devices are active simultaneously... To make switching easier you can use this:




impulse said:


> Quick audio switcher for going between USB DAC and mobo on-board audio or sound cards on PC (or HDMI out via video card, etc etc):
> 
> http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1656534
> 
> ...




Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, what DAC are you referring to?


----------



## Fegefeuer

It's a luxury problem. 

PC360 connected to the Titanium HD Headphone out and Mic. 
Stereo-Mix over SPDIF enabled towards my DAC.

I only need the PC360 for multiplayer purposes with Skype/any other Voicecom. Volume is at about 25-30% when using it.

Since I am quite the immersion fanatic (playing SP primarily) I want to play my singleplayer games with the best I have, in that case the HD 800 and generally you maximize the volume of the source and leave volume changes to the amp. Since the PC360 is connected as well, a volume level of 100% on the X-Fi makes them quite loud of course. Luckily you can dial it back via the knob on the PC360. Unfortunately it is not able to fully dial the sound down and can be heard across the room.

Of course this is more of a luxury problem, but I have the Silverstone Fortress Case under my desk and it's mainboard installation is rotated by 90% so all ports and connections are on the top of the case and I have to put the PC360 connections blindly if I'd disconnect them every time. It's rather annoying.


----------



## Impulse

Ahh, I figured you had a USB DAC, forgot about the card's SPDIF output and the fact that it does play over both outputs simultaneously... Hrm. Nice case btw. 

You could hook up the PC360 to an extension so you could effectively disconnect it when not in use without having to open up the top of the case. A short extension (1-3 ft) would work perfectly and it's a cheap/easy solution, get two (and label them, one for the mic jack) if you wanna be able to disconnect it entirely and put it away etc.

Doesn't the card's mixer let you mute the specific output anywhere on the control panel tho? Been a while since I've touched a Creative card...


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





daleb said:


> No, it doesn't come with Dolby headphone. I wish it did, ugh. Maybe theres a way to set up the dll for that to run through everything?
> 
> My laptop does have a realtek, the ALC 271x... According to Realtek's site, that doesn't even exist. Modded version from Acer, maybe? I wonder if these hacked drivers would even work. Is it possible to even attempt that without killing my computer and its audio?


 
   
  Installing the drivers won't do any hardware damage, and Realtek fortunately uses unified driver packages.
   
  There's still a chance that the drivers won't recognize that particular codec model, though, in which case you're back to square one.


----------



## daleb

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Installing the drivers won't do any hardware damage, and Realtek fortunately uses unified driver packages.
> 
> There's still a chance that the drivers won't recognize that particular codec model, though, in which case you're back to square one.


 

 But how can I go back to the old drivers if the new drivers completely break audio? Rolling back drivers has never worked on any computer I've used...


----------



## Impulse

You've had pretty miserable luck then... Worst case scenario, there's tools you can use to clean up old divers if the manual route fails, plus there's always this little thing called backups...  

Create an image backup before messing with anything, if it doesn't work you can revert the system to the exact state it was in when the backup was made, bit for bit. Even Windows' own backup tools are pretty robust if you're on 7 or later, and if not there's plenty of robust freeware alternatives (EaseUs gets my vote, or CloneZilla/DriveImageXML if you just need a bare minimum of functionality).

Win 8 kinda dumbs down some of the backup options but I believe all of the functionality is still there, haven't experimented with it a lot... Not having a system/image backup these days is silly tho, storage is so cheap and it saves you so much time if your main drive ever dies or you mess up the OS somehow.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Yeah, extension cables are the best thing to do before trying to look for settings that unfortunately aren't there.


----------



## Ban13

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *NamelessPFG* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Amazing Frostbite-era Battlefield sound samples, with the Refractor engine's vastly superior positional audio (and less "unlock everything" crap in the gameplay, to boot)? Sign me up!


 
   
  Pretty much. It's rather demanding mod to play with a steep learning curve. Some sound samples are taken from Battlefield 3 and some were recorded by the mod team (this channel has many samples). 
   
  Anyway, you need Battlefield 2 patched to 1.50 prior to installing. Project Reality files can be found here.
  1. BF2 1.50
  2. PR 0.97 part 1, 2 and 3
  3. PR Patch 0.97 to 0.98
   
  Before playing you really need to read the manual, download and install PR Mumble (the version that comes with the mod is not the right one) and, of course, SoundMod 0.5.
   
  This is the sort of gameplay to expect (note that this is 10 min highlight out of an hour long round):


----------



## Fegefeuer

*Tomb Raider 2013 Benchmark sequence with CMSS vs. THX and SBX*
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo0uZdNt064&hd=1 CMSS
   
  vs
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQejv8hiQRM&hd=1 THX
   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pti1l20UGPc&hd=1 SBX
   
*Metro 2033 Benchmark with CMSS vs. THX*
   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQw-m8ijNJA&hd=1 CMSS
   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=069uA5bCxL0&hd=1 THX


----------



## Impulse

Not sure how I'd never run across this before, Essence Toggle:

https://sites.google.com/site/essencetoggle/home

Very useful for for anyone with a Xonar STX, enables hotkey switching from speakers to headphones (can even set it to revert volume levels or enable DH). Haven't tried it yet but I'm gonna do so as soon as I get home...

I'll probably bind it to one of the macro keys on my Corsair K90, right next to the taskbar shortcut keys and the keys to switch from spanned desktop (Eyefinity) to regular multi-display mode and from landscape (LLL) to portrait (PPP).


----------



## olinoob

Hi everyone ! thanks for this guide.
  I just bought the AD-700 headphones and a nice X-fi titanium HD and I wanted to know if the settings I use are correct.
   
  For music I use stereo settings in windows, and a sample rate of 96Khz (the 192khz seems to disappear at random, lol) "entertainment mode" with all effects disabled
  For gaming I use 5.1 settings in windows, sample rate of 96khz, EAX enabled, thx thru disabled, and headphones settings with cmss 3D enabled. My AD-700 are plugged in the jack (I use the RCA for my hi-fi)
   
  Is that the optimal way to use the X-Fi titanium for best positional accuracy? Thanks !
   
  Next month I will consider buying an objective O2 !  I wonder if it makes that much of a difference ?


----------



## Impulse

An O2 might not make much of a difference with the AD700 tbh... I'd probably spend those $150 on another pair of headphones if you actually crave a different kind of sound for certain music or scenarios. Then again if you start looking at other headphones you might eventually end up with an amp anyway. 

Those settings sound right to me but it's been a while since I've tinkered with Creative cards so maybe someone else can confirm... Wasn't there some other mode that forcefully turned off all processing for music tho? Content creation mode or something like that. Also, EAX's probably irrelevant these days...

You're not ever switching Windows to headphones are you? Just Creative's cc...


----------



## olinoob

Yeah there's an audio creation mode. I must investigate all those settings !
  I keep the windows settings @ 5.1 sound, headphones only in the creative console.
  And yeah EAX is probably for older games, I don't think this will be very useful 
  Roger on the amp. The sound is already pretty good as it is


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





impulse said:


> An O2 might not make much of a difference with the AD700 tbh... I'd probably spend those $150 on another pair of headphones if you actually crave a different kind of sound for certain music or scenarios. Then again if you start looking at other headphones you might eventually end up with an amp anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I agree, as you would get better results if you get a headphone that has the sound signature you need, instead of getting a headphone amp with a different sound signature to tweak the sound signature of the AD700s.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





olinoob said:


> Hi everyone ! thanks for this guide.
> I just bought the AD-700 headphones and a nice X-fi titanium HD and I wanted to know if the settings I use are correct.
> 
> For music I use stereo settings in windows, and a sample rate of 96Khz (the 192khz seems to disappear at random, lol) "entertainment mode" with all effects disabled
> ...


 
   
  Looks good, though don't be surprised if some games start sounding all whacked-out due to the 96 KHz sample rate. I recall having to set it to 48 KHz because of that.
   
  The only thing that surprises me with your music settings is that you're not using Audio Creation Mode instead of Entertainment Mode. That allows for proper bit-matched playback through ASIO if you want it.
   
  Also, a clarification on EAX:
   
  -If it's a setting for room modes, KEEP THOSE OFF unless you want reverb unnecessarily applied to everything you hear!
  -If it's more of a volume setting, which it is in Game Mode, KEEP IT ON and at 0.0db. Won't screw with your sound that way, while ensuring that in-game EAX effects (if used) sound as intended.
   
  And as mentioned above, a headphone amp is a waste on an AD700 because of how sensitive they are. Get some better headphones first.


----------



## lunemi

I am going to buy a new sound setup to my pc. For headphones I think I'm gonna go with ad700 but I have a hard time picking a good soundcard. I'm thinking of creative soundblaster z or the titanium hd right now. Any suggestions on soundcard are much appreciated! I play fps games like counterstrike source. All I want is really just to be able to "sound whore" which is the reason why I picked the ad700


----------



## chewy4

So I've heard that there's a way to make CS:GO have 3D sound...
   
  Is there a guide for that somewhere? I can't seem to find it.


----------



## muksuluuri

Hey guys,
   
  thanks for keeping this obscenely informative thread alive and running! I have browsed throught it but I'd still like to ask a few specific things:
   
  Having recently purchased a Qpad QH-1339 headset (basically rebranded Beyerdynamic MMX-300) I'm now looking for the most suitable sound card to pair it with. I'm currently on 64bit Windows Vista, will upgrade to Windows 8 in the summer when I assemble a new Haswell-rig. This setup is mainly used for FPS gaming, so the card should be good for "positional cues" (from what I've learned, Creative's cards in general do this better compared to those of Asus?) etc. I play games like Team Fortress 2 and Modern Warfare 1 & 2, more modern titles as well once the rest of my computer has been brought up to scratch. This headset has a relatively low impedance of 32 Ohms; is this something to take into consideration when choosing the sound card?
   
  Some of my current options are:
   
  a 2nd hand Auzentech Forte 7.1 for ~US$ 50 - received the Win 8 driver recently, X-Fi, headphone amp, no warranty so a bit risky
   
  a 2nd hand Asus Xonar DX2 for ~US$ 70 - an older card, not sure how it compares to more recent Xonars, no warranty so a bit risky
   
  a 2nd hand Creative Titanium for ~US$ 70 - the vanilla version, no headphone amp (?)
   
  a new Sound Blaster Z for ~US$ 100
   
  I'm not limited by a certain budget but wouldn't like to overspend on unnecessary features (such as a hugely powerful amp, considering my headset).
   
  Any opinions on the options above, or other cards I should consider?
   
  Thanks a ton in advance!


----------



## genclaymore

Amazon has the Z for 80-90 dollars the last time I checked.


----------



## Impulse

Creative cards don't really handle positional cues better in general than Xonar cards, unless you're concerned with older games, but impedance is absolutely something to take into account when selecting your card/amp... AFAIK most of the ASUS Xonars have relatively high output impedance so even tho they have better amps than Creative's older cards they might sound a bit uncontrolled with lower impedance headphones... Dunno about output impedance on Creative's cards... 

Those Beyers are actually harder to drive than the average headphone because of their low impedance/sensitivity, unlike most low impedance highly sensitive headphones.

The Titanium HD is Creative's best card and it's often on sale for $100 (should be discontinued for the Z series eventually), doesn't have any discrete amp despite what they advertise tho. A regular old X-Fi titanium seems a little expensive at $70 if it's second hand... I'm not terribly familiar with the Forte, the DX2 is kind of a rip considering you can buy a new DGX for like $50. From what I've read, the THX/SBX headphone surround emulation onthe new Z series isn't as strong as Creative'd old CMSS-3D or Dolby Headphone (used on Xonars), haven't heard one myself though. 

You may or may not eventually realize you actually want an external amp to get the most out of that headset, so I wouldn't overspend on the card. Cheap DGX, the Forte if you read good things about it, or the Ti HD if you find a deal, IMO.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





chewy4 said:


> So I've heard that there's a way to make CS:GO have 3D sound...
> 
> Is there a guide for that somewhere? I can't seem to find it.


 
   
  It's the same process for almost every Source-engine game:
   
  -Enable ALchemy (that is, copy dsound.dll and dsound.ini to the game's root folder)
  -Set "snd_legacy_surround 1" in the console
   
  Quote: 





muksuluuri said:


> Some of my current options are:
> 
> a 2nd hand Auzentech Forte 7.1 for ~US$ 50 - received the Win 8 driver recently, X-Fi, headphone amp, no warranty so a bit risky
> 
> ...


 
   
  Out of those options, I'd probably pick the X-Fi Forte (especially at that price), though I would try to make sure it has a heatsink on the DSP or some other indication that it's one of the later batch of cards. Also, I'd definitely opt for Daniel_K's X-Fi Support Pack over the Auzentech drivers I had used several months ago.
   
  Then there's the X-Fi Titanium HD, which is very capable, but generally around $100-120 these days, thus more expensive. Any advantages over the Forte that aren't driver-related probably wouldn't be noticeable with your headphones.
   
  If you want to go Xonar for any reason, I'd suggest either the cheap DG(X) or the high-end Essence ST(X) line.
   
  Quote: 





impulse said:


> Creative cards don't really handle positional cues better in general than Xonar cards, unless you're concerned with older games, but impedance is absolutely something to take into account when selecting your card/amp... AFAIK most of the ASUS Xonars have relatively high output impedance so even tho they have better amps than Creative's older cards they might sound a bit uncontrolled with lower impedance headphones... Dunno about output impedance on Creative's cards...
> 
> Those Beyers are actually harder to drive than the average headphone because of their low impedance/sensitivity, unlike most low impedance highly sensitive headphones.
> 
> ...


 
   
  For software-mixed games, it's really down to a matter of preference on CMSS-3D Headphone vs. Dolby Headphone, with plenty of outspoken proponents on both sides, myself and Mad Lust Envy among them.
   
  They say the Titanium HD has a 35-ohm output impedance on the headphone jack. Didn't seem to faze the HE-400 much, but orthos are known for flat impedance curves, and I don't have any demanding dynamics lying around. (Nor do I plan to buy any when most of 'em are priced in used Stax territory. On the other hand, if someone would kindly lend me some more sets to review...an AKG K/Q70x or Sennheiser HD650 would surely be the ticket for demanding dynamics!)
   
  The X-Fi Forte claims to have some kind of headphone amp, but I don't know if it's a dedicated circuit or another Titanium HD advertising incident. It'll get plenty loud, but I don't know the actual output impedance or the control it'll have over more demanding dynamic/ortho drivers.
   
  And for that matter, the money spent on amplification at this point would be far better spent just getting a newer headphone, and I'd only consider paying up for the amp if the headphones absolutely require it (read: electrostatics).


----------



## Impulse

Well, you can get a decent amp to run out of the line out of any of the cards for half the price of any headphone in the MMX's league (or better), so it's not like it'd be a huge investment if he's unhappy with any of the card's performance... If output impedance for some of the other X-Fis go that high then a new DGX might easily be the best value (think it's z-out is in the same range as the STX), provided he doesn't have a preference for CMSS-3D over DH, that or that Forte. That's why I suggested not spending over $50-55 unless he's stretching for something like a Ti HD or STX.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I'll be the first to admit that audio amplifiers are not my strongest field of knowledge. Seems like it would be too rife with placebo, but on the other hand, there's a good reason they exist: to ensure control over the transducers. The lines tend to blur a lot amidst the hype, though.
   
  All I know is that dedicated headphone amplifiers get expensive. Stupid expensive, like "more than the headphones connected to them". Especially if you want to get into electrostatics, which REQUIRE them; a Stax SRM-1/Mk2 Pro will fetch around $325-450 these days, and that's considered fairly entry-level by Stax amp standards! ("High-end" for electrostatic amps apparently means $2,000+ KGSSHVs and $5,000+ BHSEs that aren't even made anymore...)


----------



## Impulse

Well yeah, but that's a whole other league you're talking about... Entry level solid state amps that can handle nearly all dynamic headphones and even many planar magnetics can be had for $100-150 (Schiit Magni, JDS O2, Fiio E09k, etc). It seems like even if you pay double that you're only getting more features (inputs, etc.) and slightly more refinement, I'm sure an even larger investment (3-5x) would be more noticeable of a step (at that point tube amps are in contention too) but I haven't had that luxury yet. 

A decent entry level amp plus a cheap sound card's gonna be better than a slightly more expensive card by itself (and $20-50 extra on the card pays for a good chunk of an amp), unless you're going for something like the STX or just driving really sensitive low imp headphones that won't benefit from a discrete amp in any significant way.


----------



## lunemi

I am going to get the ad700 but I don't know which sound card to pair it with. I only play fps games like counterstrike source, bf3 and Cod mw2. So the only thing I really care about is to be able to "sound whore" with great positional accuracy. Suggestions on sound cards are much appreciated!


----------



## roguegeek

Quote: 





lunemi said:


> I am going to get the ad700 but I don't know which sound card to pair it with. I only play fps games like counterstrike source, bf3 and Cod mw2. So the only thing I really care about is to be able to "sound whore" with great positional accuracy. Suggestions on sound cards are much appreciated!


 
   
  An AD700 and X-Fi Titanium HD using CMSS-3D make for an ungodly pair when it comes to competitive gaming.


----------



## lunemi

Thx for the reply!  But will the X-Fi Titanium HD work with windows 8?


----------



## olinoob

yes it does, that's my setup


----------



## chewy4

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> It's the same process for almost every Source-engine game:
> 
> -Enable ALchemy (that is, copy dsound.dll and dsound.ini to the game's root folder)
> -Set "snd_legacy_surround 1" in the console


 
  Thanks.

 Something seems off about it though, not sure I like it.


----------



## jonathan1107

Hi, I have received last friday my Astro a50 headset system. I game mainly on PC and Xbox 360. I enjoy Surround sound very much. I was told these were the best I could buy and I deeply regret not informing myself well because they are BS...
   
  There is a constant high pitch buzz in the right ear cup which is even more pronounced when talking in the mic.... So I'm now into getting a refund for the headset and purchasing another one. I'd like you guys to point me to the best Headset system for my price range 250-315$
   
  I was told the PC360 would be a good choice. But I was trying to figure out how does one get his surround sound from their PC (I use a Xonar DX souncard) to the headset itself. I believe the PC360 features to 3.5mm plugs... one for the mic and the other for the headphones... ain'T 3.5mm input limited to stereo sound? So why then do people on this forum keep telling me "surround sound and soundtage is great on that headset" ??
   
  I'm quite new to the headset world, I'd really like for someone to just give me some detailed wisdom. I did read a lot on this forum, but there's just too much to read. I'd just like someone to tell me what they reccomend for an audiophile like me who wants surround sound (not some crappy emulated ****) and games mainly on his PC (xonar dx) and his console (xbox 360) I also chat a lot through programs like skype and vent when gaming on PC...


----------



## neopac

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *jonathan1107* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ain'T 3.5mm input limited to stereo sound? So why then do people on this forum keep telling me "surround sound and soundtage is great on that headset" ??


 
   
  i don´t ask you to read the 99 pages of this thread.. but maybe you should read the first post... binaural is what you´re looking for


----------



## jonathan1107

Quote: 





neopac said:


> i don´t ask you to read the 99 pages of this thread.. but maybe you should read the first post... binaural is what you´re looking for


 
  Ok I went back to read the first post fully, and I'm still not quite sure I understand...
  Let me see if I got it right: Basically, any type of surround sound I hear in a headset would be "virtual surround sound" correct? I did hear about headsets that have multiple "speakers" for TRUE surround sound...
   
  So when I use my Astro a50s, without using the dolby button, I get surround sound from the games I play in my ears.... Is that virtual surround sound? Because it feels pretty real... It's surround sound processed by my Xonar DX, but I wonder if the TX amp (or the headset itself) is RE-processing that sound or not...


----------



## muksuluuri

Thanks a lot *Impulse* and *Nameless*, really helpful! No love shown for Sound Blaster Z, then? I found an open box one for ~$60, no warranty but should be mint. It really seems to be between the Forte and the Z now, as Titanium HD is vulgarly expensive still here in Europe, they are asking for almost ZxR kind of $ for it.
   
  What Impulse says about amps also resonates loud and clearly with my gadget-obsessed sub-consciousness, and prompted me to calculate the relative insanity of splurging on an Epiphany Acoustics O2; it would cost me £109,99 including taxes & shipping (Fiio E09K would be around the same, but having done some reading on these 2 I learnt that O2 should be better for driving the headset I have)... Between the headset, the soundcard & possibly the amp, my wallet is cursing the day I found this forum. 
   
   
  Edit: Pro-ject Headbox S amp seems to cost roughly the same as the aforementioned 2 amps... How does it compare to O2? I read the disclaimer about this not being the correct thread to ask for advice on headphones/amps, hope you don't mind. 
   
   
  Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Out of those options, I'd probably pick the X-Fi Forte (especially at that price), though I would try to make sure it has a heatsink on the DSP or some other indication that it's one of the later batch of cards. Also, I'd definitely opt for Daniel_K's X-Fi Support Pack over the Auzentech drivers I had used several months ago.
> 
> Then there's the X-Fi Titanium HD, which is very capable, but generally around $100-120 these days, thus more expensive. Any advantages over the Forte that aren't driver-related probably wouldn't be noticeable with your headphones.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Quote: 





impulse said:


> Creative cards don't really handle positional cues better in general than Xonar cards, unless you're concerned with older games, but impedance is absolutely something to take into account when selecting your card/amp... AFAIK most of the ASUS Xonars have relatively high output impedance so even tho they have better amps than Creative's older cards they might sound a bit uncontrolled with lower impedance headphones... Dunno about output impedance on Creative's cards...
> 
> Those Beyers are actually harder to drive than the average headphone because of their low impedance/sensitivity, unlike most low impedance highly sensitive headphones.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bilco

So I just swapped to windows 8 and had a little trouble getting my X-fi Titanium to work with it.  After doing some forum diving I come to find creative's continued support of the drivers for the xfi line are in question which has me worried.
   
  Taking that into consideration I am looking to see if there are any worth upgrades from my current card.  I mainly game with my Sennheiser HD555s and play the gambit from shooters, to mobas and mmos. So virtual surround is something I would like to keep in mind as much as possible.
   
  I was considering the Asus essence stx, the creative Z or a titanium HD. 
   
  As mentioned above the driver support for the xfis and reports of the Titanuim HDs dying prematurely has me worried.  What might you all recommend for me to grab to pair with my current headphones.


----------



## NamelessPFG

My Titanium HD's still going strong. Not sure what's causing 'em to fail for other people, but mine works fine. Seems like I just have a lot of luck with X-Fi hardware, including the X-Fi Forte I had prior.
   
  As for Windows 8 support, I recall trying out the existing Win7 drivers back on the Release Preview and them working just fine (maybe with the need for Win7 compatibility mode, I don't recall), but I obviously didn't mess with it for too long because I *hate* Windows 8 and its mess of a UI that Microsoft's trying to cram down our throats. (Too bad, because some of the under-the-hood enhancements are nice. I just don't think it's worth paying money to downgrade overall because of that mishmashed UI.)
   
  ...Holy crap, this thread's hit 100 pages already!


----------



## Evshrug

Congrats Nameless!!!

Just finished upgrading from the consumer preview to Win 8 Pro yesterday, I actually like the info-at-a-glance live tiles. I wasn't already used to Vista or 7 though (kinda used to XP), so I had to learn pretty much from scratch anyway, and Metro doesn't bother me at all. Steam is kinda bugging me at the moment though... I played Dishonored for 3 1/2 hours earlier today, and I quit to check out an Amazon lightning deal (Solar panels, very interesting at $60), but when I try to open up the game again I get a dialogue box about "Installing some extensions for the first time setup" and it hangs there. Plugging in my USB Xbox controller and having it instantly recognized and configured was nice, but coming back to windows I'm remembering how much I hate mucking about with drivers and extensions and patches and all the other little doo-dads. Seriously, I spent 5 hours last night watching installer bars after I had finished installing Win 8 pro, and in general I just have to wade through all these configuration and helper file installs that waste my time instead of just letting me play or work or whatever.


Windows is constantly irritating, but Win 8 Pro isn't particularly more so than windows has always been. The UI is the least of my worries.


----------



## Impulse

I just treat Win 8 like Metro doesn't exist... And I don't even hate Metro, there's just no reason for me to spend any significant time in that part of the OS when I have three 1920x1200 displays worth of work space. If I spent a lot of time on a laptop or a single display config then I might have more of a use for Metro. As a way of accessing seldom used apps I don't think it's any worse than the old Start menu. Who seriously liked the old Start menu anyway? 

Until Microsoft did away with it the general opinion seemed to be that it got cluttered and disorganized all too easily and was mostly considered a vestigial reminder of older menu-driven UI paradigms. People actively avoided it with all sorts of 3rd party docks and launchers (until Windows 7's overhauled task bar took some of the wind from that). The Metro hate just got trendy and out of proportion... It's not a great fit for desktops but it's a good fit for the convergent devices the majority of the population's gonna end up using (if they aren't already) and it's no worse at it's basic functionality than the old Start menu. 

Well, except for shutdown, they did bury the hell out of that... Pretty sure that was on purpose tho. Laptops have a physical button for this that you can re-assign from sleep/hibernate if you prefer. I've noticed a lot of people (older people particularly) never use it because they think of it like a kill switch (as it was on older computers) so they never use sleep, which is pretty much a crime these days with RAM prices and SSD where they are (and Windows not needing to be rebooted constantly just because).

There's actually a lot more thought and research behind Microsoft's madness and decisions than people give them credit for (particularly over the last few years). Then again, as a student I get a dozen Windows 8 keys so I'm probably not the best judge of it's worth.  They did offer it cheaper than ever tho, like $50 for pre-orders I think? No one but geeks and enthusiasts actually care about OS upgrades anyway! 




jonathan1107 said:


> Ok I went back to read the first post fully, and I'm still not quite sure I understand...
> Let me see if I got it right: Basically, any type of surround sound I hear in a headset would be "virtual surround sound" correct? I did hear about headsets that have multiple "speakers" for TRUE surround sound...
> 
> So when I use my Astro a50s, without using the dolby button, I get surround sound from the games I play in my ears.... Is that virtual surround sound? Because it feels pretty real... It's surround sound processed by my Xonar DX, but I wonder if the TX amp (or the headset itself) is RE-processing that sound or not...




Headphones with multiple drivers in them try to recreate the experience of having multiple speakers, but generally fail to do so because stuffing three or five or however many drivers into a tiny cup that's one inch from your ear just isn't very effective and it just ends up hurting the overall SQ... There's a reason you only see that kinda headset from gaming peripheral companies.

The other way to get a surround-like experience from headphones (and what most around here would recommend) is the virtual-ized approach. Algorithms like Dolby Headphone essentially take a 5.1 signal meant for speakers and they process it in a way that sounds natural and for headphones, instead of just downmixing to stereo.

Your DX has a setting for Dolby Headphone, you would want to set the game to 5.1 output and then enable DH on the card's control panel. On a console you'd use something like the Astro Mixamp to get the same effect. Stereo headphones and headsets can't process a signal, they're entirely analog (99% of the time, with exceptions like NC etc.), they simply reproduce the signal they're fed.


----------



## daleb

Hello again. I don't know if i missed something, but I cant get 3dsoundback working. When i click on it nothing opens and there is no difference in sound. I cant check my computer now, so sorry for that.
Edit: and now I can.
Edit 2:Okay, I figured out how to get 3dsoundback to at least open, you have to run it through vista (not XP!) compatibility mode. Now then, how do I make it sound things sound as if they are 3d? So far, it doesn't seem to do much.
Edit3:Is it actually possible to tell if something is virtual surround sound with cheaper headphones? they have imaging, but they have never had any depth whatsoever, so while playing games, if I spin around, the sound right now spins around my head, but its very close to the head, you can't tell how far away it is at all, so I don't know if surround is enabled or not...
Edit4: Bethesda games all crash when you enable 3dsoundback on them D:


----------



## jonathan1107

Ok so I just got the PC360 headset, and right now I'm not very impressed... but I think I need some advice on setting it all up...
   
  The PC360s have 2x 3.5mm jacks (mic + headphone) and I plugged them both in the front panel analog inputs (mic + headphone). In my XONAR DX soundcard panel, I have tried these 2 setups:
   
  8 channel + Dolby Headphone Enabled (and the directionnal cues are perfect, but somehow the sound quality seems diminished... feels like being inside a can... the trebles are not as clean as when I'm only using 8 channels and Dolby Headphone is off)
   
  I aslo tried 8 channel only... Sound quatity is top of the line, but there isnt much difference between sounds cues that are coming from the front vs the back...
   
  I also tried 8 channels + Dolby Headphone + 7.1 shifter... Directionnal cues are even clearer than when I was just using 8 ch + dolby headphone... but the sound quality is even worst...
   
  When I was using the a50s with a optical cable running from the soundcard to the TX amp (with 8 ch + 5.1 speaker setup on the XONAR panel) everything sounded better than all of these setups...
   
  Have I missed something ? Should my headset be plugged straight to the back of the XONAR soundcard instead of the front panel? (because if I do Im not sure I'll be able to plug  in the mic right?)


----------



## genclaymore

Try Dolby headphone mode 1 or 2 , I find 3 to have way too much effect. I normally used DH1 when I was on a xonar based card. Because Mode 1 is Ref and doesn't add any reverbs.


----------



## jonathan1107

Quote: 





jonathan1107 said:


> *Well, even with DH-1 setup with the PC360s and my Xonar DX, I still feel the decrease in sound quality... that feeling that all the sounds feel like the inside of a tin can... Very annoying*... Somehow, when I was using the A50s outputting sound from the optical cable to the TX amp and selecting dolby digital live on the xonar DX, the surround sound was still being emulated, but didn't feel as bad... but I think that is because the A50s have lots of bass and not that much clarity...
> 
> I'm guessing the PC360s are so good that I can hear all the shortcomings of the emulation quite fast. BUT: When I don't enable Dolby Headphone technology (which means I have stereo sound only with no surround sound at all, because its not being emulated) the sound is crystal clear, almost perfect... I could see why audiophiles are in love with the pc360 for all the stereo stuff... But in MAD'S review, he seems to have enjoyed the surround sound experience quite a lot with them PC360s, I have yet to find a way to make them sound "good" when using the Dolby Headphone technology...
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Umm, I dont play on PC, ever.


 
   
   
  I'm not sure yet... but I have a feeling maybe my Xonar DX's Dolby Headphone techology is just "weak"... I'm thinking maybe I ought to get a better soundcard... and I might finally enjoy some decent virtual surround sound into my PC360s...
   
  I'm tryin to make a smart move: I might get myself a soundcard that is so good, I can use it to emulate surround sound for consoles as well... I've seen some soundcards that have so many inputs and outputs... maybe I can find a sorta "univseral" soundcard...
   
  Man this stuff is hardcore learning (definitly not something for your average joe)
  EDIT: I have yet to try the XONAR UNIFIED drivers and see if they make the sound quality better when using virtual surround sound on the pc360s


----------



## Impulse

Why wouldn't you be able to plug the mic into the back?


----------



## pric0

i have a problem, i have SR850 + Titanium 7.1.
  when i point Creative Alchemy to my CSGO folder it makes my game sound ugly, everything echoed and sounded like my sound card was on the brink of burning.
  i try to make the game support 3d sound as you explained, can you elaborate on how to set it up?
   
  EDIT - this is from my CSGO console using soundinfo command:
   
   
  Sound Device:   Direct Sound
    Channels:     2
    Samples:      32768
    Bits/Sample:  16
    Rate:         44100
  total_channels: 33
   
  im using 7.1 and everything works fine, the problem is, and thats why i said "7.1 is crap" long time ago, it's cause the game didnt count it as 7.1, but for stereo.
  thats why when i play with stereo i get the feeling that i hear stuff much clearer (and i really do)
  and when i put 7.1, it turns stereo in-game, making 7.1 seem useless.


----------



## Rahmiel

Hey Nameless, been a long time since I posted in this thread.
   
  Just a quick recap, but I bought the PC360 headset on your recommendation and when I first got it, I was disappointed with it.  However, that was just initially.  It took a while for it to "warm up" or seat itself, whatever.. but it's probably the best headset I've ever owned, so I'm not disappointed with it anymore.  But I don't think I'm getting the most from it or my soundcard (to be specific).
   
  I remember talking to you about audio card settings and such (you have an x-fi ti hd, I have an x-fi ti fatal1ty pro) but I think the cards are very close together that whatever settings you use in your console, I could use.
   
  So, I've been running with headphones set in the audio console, but 5.1 speakers for windows 7.  I've also been using dolby digital live as my encoder.  It was okay, but I found that I had to use SVM mode (the low and high volume equalizer) and I don't like using it.  Mostly because for music I have to uncheck it but when I play planetside 2, I like to have it checked as I can hear footsteps/cloakers better which helps me track them down.
   
  Today, I thought I'd mess around with DTS NeoC and when I check this off and select either cinema or music mode, I find that I can no longer use the x-fi cmss-3d headphone as it will then un-enable DTS NeoC.  In other words, they seem to be mutually exclusive.  I hopped into PS2 and I couldn't hear footsteps as well, or cloakers but the positional cues and sounds I heard were amazing.  I was actually able to predict near pinpoint where guys were when they were firing guns or driving/flying vehicles.  So.. naturally, this seems to be the setting I'd like to use.
   
  My question to you basically, is what settings do you use?  Also, I looked at my soundcard and compared it to the x-fi ti hd and the features seem to be near identical (except for a couple that don't really seem to interest me).  Should I look into getting another soundcard (either the ti hd or asus xonar?).  I ask because I don't want to spend $150+ getting a new soundcard and only a 1% or negligible increase in performance/quality.
   
  Are there some settings I'm using improperly?  I understand that my ability in hearing is different from yours, and different from everyone else's, but I'm really curious how you have your card configured that gives you (in your opinion) such great audio.  I'd just hate to have this good equipment and be using it improperly and not reaping the benefits of my investments.  Especially if I've been listening in stereo and no 3d positional audio.
   
  Thanks if you respond, or just reading basically.  Again, been loving the thread.
  Oh, that reminds me, you have a link on your front page to a "Daniel K x-fi support pack".  What is this, and do I need it?  I'm running the latest x-fi driver (2.17.9) and I'm just not sure what the support pack actually does.  Looks like it installs some 2.17.0000008 beta driver or something?  Is that a step backwards, or something I should install anyway?  Again, thanks


----------



## NamelessPFG

Wait a minute...why are you using Dolby Digital Live or DTS NeoC in the first place with the PC360? Is there also an A/V receiver in the chain that you're also outputting to that I may have forgotten about?
   
  If the PC360's connected directly to the card, then I see no reason to bother with that at all. Just turn those off, set the X-Fi to Headphones in its control panel, keep it in Game Mode, and set Windows to 7.1. That's what I do. (I only use 5.1 instead of 7.1 due to a Titanium HD limitation; still, it's no big loss in terms of positioning.)
   
  Really, I run Game Mode 99% of the time; I just switch CMSS-3D Headphone on if I'm playing a game that demands positional audio cues, and switch it off whenever I'm listening to music or any other situation where it would be unhelpful.
   
  If the X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) works fine for you as is and you want an upgrade, there's always the option to buy a DAC with S/PDIF input and using "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" to pass the audio stream to the DAC.
   
  The X-Fi Support Pack is meant for use when the official driver release isn't working well enough. If the current Creative driver release is working fine for you, you probably don't have to change drivers at all.


----------



## Rahmiel

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Wait a minute...why are you using Dolby Digital Live or DTS NeoC in the first place with the PC360? Is there also an A/V receiver in the chain that you're also outputting to that I may have forgotten about?
> 
> If the PC360's connected directly to the card, then I see no reason to bother with that at all. Just turn those off, set the X-Fi to Headphones in its control panel, keep it in Game Mode, and set Windows to 7.1. That's what I do. (I only use 5.1 instead of 7.1 due to a Titanium HD limitation; still, it's no big loss in terms of positioning.)
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  Awesome, thanks for the response.  So don't use DDL or DTS, eh?  Hmm.. okay, I'll give that a go.  Yeah, I really don't know what all these damn features are for, but no, my headset plugs right into my card.  I also use game mode almost exclusively.  I"ve fooled around with entertainment (I think?) a couple of times, but I pretty much just use GM even for music et al.
   
  Thanks again.


----------



## Sleinzel

I'm upgrading my whole chain (Sennheiser HD 800 inc ^^) and have some questions.
   
  I'm currently Using Dobly Headphone (Mode 1) with a Xonar Essence ST and I'm thinking about switching to a titanium.
   
  I need digital output to feed my future dac (probably gonna be a xonar essence one). Also CMSS-3D seems to be pretty cool because it uses DirectSound3d while Dolby Headphone actually uses no data from the game. Am I right?
   
  Simply put: I wanna have the best card for Counterstrike Global offensive (which seems to have DirectSound3D support ?!? And what is ALchemy?) and it should have digital output (Unfortunatly The Xonar Essence ST is not able to output digital Dolby Headphone).
   
  Could you help me clear this up a little bit? What should i go with?
   
  I saw that you already tested some source based games Nameless. What do you think would be the best way for professional gaming in CS:GO, because I'm not really astonished by the result of Dolby Headphone.
   
  Chain:
   
  Gaming: PC ==> Soundcard ==> (Digital Toslink/Optical) Asus Essence one ==> Headphones
  Music: PC ==> Asus Essence one ==> Headphones


----------



## Impulse

DH uses 5.1/7.1 directional data from games (the kind that the game would send to an HT surround), just like CMSS-3D does w/the vast majority of modern games. With games that still use DirectSound or implement OpenAL directly then CMSS-3D can use additional positional data, height etc. If either scheme were using no data from the game they'd just be upmixing a stereo signal, which is generally pointless.
   
  My STX can output DH over digital btw, are you sure the ST can't? Earlier driver revs didn't allow it but they later changed it... Not sure if it was done for all the cards in the line tho.


----------



## Sleinzel

Quote: 





impulse said:


> DH uses 5.1/7.1 directional data from games (the kind that the game would send to an HT surround), just like CMSS-3D does w/the vast majority of modern games. With games that still use DirectSound or implement OpenAL directly then CMSS-3D can use additional positional data, height etc. If either scheme were using no data from the game they'd just be upmixing a stereo signal, which is generally pointless.
> 
> My STX can output DH over digital btw, are you sure the ST can't? Earlier driver revs didn't allow it but they later changed it... Not sure if it was done for all the cards in the line tho.


 
  Yeah you are right. It can output DH over digital. Strange that I never got it to work eventhough I have the newest driver version installed.
   
  The main issue I have with DH is that I don't hear if someone is above or below me and how far away he is (horizontal and vertical). CMSS-3D should fix that. Am I wrong here?


----------



## Impulse

It _can_ help w/that, but it won't be an improvement w/every game out there (or even the majority). If it works for what you're playing then it might be worth trying out, some people just prefer CMSS-3D over DH or vice versa regardless of any of this.


----------



## Blue A10

I was wondering if someone could confirm/correct me as to if my plan will work. I'm hoping to fit all of my needs with just a sound card without also buying a Mixamp or giving up games that support DirectSound3D/OpenAl.
  Also, at the moment the only headphones/headset I have are some portable Senn px200-ii's (and the Tritton AX Pros), but I plan on getting a PC360 with this set.
   
  I want to get an X-Fi card to get CMSS-3D Headphone for the games that support binaural 3D audio as well like what DH does for 5.1/7.1 if 3D audio support is unavailable. Now, I game on the consoles as much as I do on the PC, so that's why I figured I'd get an X-Fi for 3D audio on certain PC games, with 2D surround for on everything else, instead of buying a Mixamp and only getting DH for everything. If I get an X-Fi with a TOSLINK Optical In port that can decode Dolby Digital Live or DTS (if one can), then I want to hook up my Xbox 360/PS3's TOSLINK to the X-Fi so I can use CMSS-3D Headphone on those as well (Xbox/PS3 5.1 > X-Fi TOSLINK > Senn PC360 via CMSS-3D for surround sound on console games.) I also want to use the PC360's mic with my Xbox controller as well as the PC, and I have a 3.5mm to 2.5mm cord. I was aiming for the Titanium HD as the sound card, but I noticed it doesn't have a TOSLINK port, and only takes 5.1 from PC games (which honestly might not make a difference, but still). So, now I'm aiming for just a normal X-Fi Titanium.
   
  So basically, should I be able to use CMSS-3D Headphone with my PC and consoles + voice chat, all with a Sennheiser PC360 and an X-Fi Titanium, or do I need to buy a different X-Fi card.
   
  Btw, sorry if that's hard to understand; my train of thought knows no rails.


----------



## Impulse

I think a number of people have looked at taking a console's output into a PC sound card for surround processing and it never ended up working for one reason or another. I don't know if it's because the cards can't decode DDL/DTS from an external input or if it was some other sort of issue... There was some discussion about this a few months ago on Mad Lust Envy's console gaming thread.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





impulse said:


> DH uses 5.1/7.1 directional data from games (the kind that the game would send to an HT surround), just like CMSS-3D does w/the vast majority of modern games. With games that still use DirectSound or implement OpenAL directly then CMSS-3D can use additional positional data, height etc. If either scheme were using no data from the game they'd just be upmixing a stereo signal, which is generally pointless.


 
   
  That sums it up quite nicely.
   
  Quote: 





impulse said:


> I think a number of people have looked at taking a console's output into a PC sound card for surround processing and it never ended up working for one reason or another. I don't know if it's because the cards can't decode DDL/DTS from an external input or if it was some other sort of issue... There was some discussion about this a few months ago on Mad Lust Envy's console gaming thread.


 
   
  The problem is that every sound card I know of (potentially barring the first-generation X-Fi PCI card lineup that have the Decoder tab in their drivers) *cannot decode Dolby Digital/AC-3 or DTS* through their S/PDIF inputs. Word is it's because both Dolby and DTS don't want the sound card manufacturers to allow real-time decoding and recording of such signals for very similar reasons as to why HDCP exists; they don't want people to just record protected content like that.
   
  Oh, and before anyone brings up the Recon3D USB, its S/PDIF input is NOT present as a recording device when connected to a PC. It's strictly for decoding Dolby Digital sources and outputting them either downmixed to stereo or processed with virtual surround.


----------



## Blue A10

Alright, so say I get one of the older X-Fi's that can decode it (I've seen a Platinum and I think I found an Elite Pro without the I/O box online), but it doesn't have an S/PDIF connector (I may have missed it, but still). Can I hook up my consoles audio to my motherboard's Optical/Coaxial In and pass it to the soundcard for decoding and then virtualization?

Also, are these older cards at any significant disadvantage compared to a Titanium?


----------



## Makiah S

I have an odac, it works great. I need to use a mic for my gaming in addition to my odac to processor the out coming sound... any tips as I have no idea where to start! 
   
  The issue I'm having is, plug n play with my mike isn't entirely working with the odac
   
  nor is audacity working to even record with direct sound as well... all thing that used to work. I'll try unpluggin and seeing what happens


----------



## ssg1

Hi,
   
  I just bought my first good headphones, Sennheiser HD 598. I have read like 100 posts and I have come to this conclusion.
   
  For music I want to get DAC. Like FiiO E10 or something portable like E17 etc. Am I correct?
   
  For gaming I want get soundcard with CMSS-3D Headphone support. I currently have ASUS Crosshair IV Formula MB, which has SupremeFX X-Fi Built-in. It is comparable to X-Fi XtremeAudio. It has CMSS-3D. So, to get everything out of my new headphones in gaming I have to set Windows 7 sounds to 5.1/7.1 and X-Fi control to headphones and enable CMSS-3D? Am I correct?
   
I noted that Creative guide advices changing X-Fi control panel to gaming, but it seems that I only have entertainment mode. I suppose it does not matter as I checked this mode has same and even more features than gaming.


----------



## genclaymore

It does matter, the CMSS3D in entertainment mode is not CMSS3D headphone which is optimized for headphone usage. Entrainment mode CMSS3D is just the normal one.But yea you would config the windows control panel speaker settings to 5.1 or 7.1 while using Headphone mode in game mode with CMSS3D headphone enable, f you had the mode.


----------



## grandpatzer

Those Stax headphones in OP are not available in my country.
  What are the best headphones for competitive fps gaming (Counter Strike: GO)?
   
  My research shows these are used mostly for fps: AD700, K701, Q701, PC360.
  The K601 are much cheaper then K701, are they inferior to K701 for fps?
   
  The Q701 is 260euro.
  AD700 is 130euro.
  K601 is 130euro.
  K701 200euro
  K702 260euro.
  PC 360 150euro
   
  Also do I need to use spdif on my Xonar DX for dolby digital?!


----------



## ssg1

Thanks. 

I have set CMSS-3D headphones on Entertainment mode. But I guess it is little different. 
Anyway. I remember seeing different modes at some point. So it is most likely just software issue which should be easy to fix.


----------



## daleb

grandpatzer said:


> Those Stax headphones in OP are not available in my country.
> What are the best headphones for competitive fps gaming (Counter Strike: GO)?
> 
> My research shows these are used mostly for fps: AD700, K701, Q701, PC360.
> ...




I'd suggest going though the mad lust envy thread, all but the 601s are in the first post.


----------



## grandpatzer

Quote: 





daleb said:


> I'd suggest going though the mad lust envy thread, all but the 601s are in the first post.


 
  Yeah I know thats where I got alot of inspiration.
   
  K702 Annie is overpriced where I live, Q701 is cheaper candidate.
  I guess I could sacrifice some competitive edge for more fun with Stax 407 or DT990 Pro 250ohm 
   
  I don't like paying for overpriced stuff generally but I might make a exception with the K702 Annie.


----------



## Evshrug

Don't get the wrong idea... The Q701 is a great and exciting headphone. Maybe not as much overemphasized bass as others, but better than a $120 is a "barely better" kind of thing. I love the soundstage on mine, and it seemed to be the most logical step to fill in the weaknesses of the AD700 I had before (and NamelessPFG had too, but he found a lucky deal and jumped way up the food chain in one step). The Q701 is a little _more_ of a gaming competitive headphone than the Annies, mostly because the Annies have a touch more bass to vie for your attention to alongside the other frequencies that are useful for "soundwhoring" and focusing on little tactical details. The regular K701 (and perhaps K702, though some say there was a point where the K702 started sounding like the Q's) is apparently a little more on the side of ease of focusing on tiny details. However, all are subtle and refined headphones with unusually wide soundstage.

To be fair, this thread is more of a "how to and recommendations guide" on soundcards than focusing on headphone recommendations.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ssg1 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just bought my first good headphones, Sennheiser HD 598. I have read like 100 posts and I have come to this conclusion.
> 
> ...


 
   
  If you're getting a sound card on the level of the Titanium HD, then I wouldn't bother with cheap DACs. Let me put it this way: once I volume-matched a JDS Labs-built ODAC and A/B'd against my Titanium HD, I was struggling to find any differences in the sound quality whatsoever.
   
  Also of note is that your so-called "X-Fi" implementation is just the X-Fi MB software suite. That's why you only have Entertainment Mode; it lacks a real EMU20k1/20k2 DSP that marks a true X-Fi card to do things in hardware. The ONLY motherboards I know of with an actual EMU20k2 integrated are some of the older Gigabyte G1-series motherboards.
   
  You still have the software variant of CMSS-3D Headphone with X-Fi MB, and while it's obviously not as good as the hardware-processed variant in Game Mode, I still prefer it to THX TruStudio Surround.
   
  Quote: 





evshrug said:


> To be fair, this thread is more of a "how to and recommendations guide" on soundcards than focusing on headphone recommendations.


 
   
  I can't emphasize this enough. Headphone recommendations are why Mad Lust Envy's guide exists. I'd provide my own, but when the only headphones I've had substantial gaming experience with are the AD700, SR-Lambda, SR-202, and HE-400, that doesn't give me much of an overall big picture, especially in the $100-250 price range that's easier to swallow.


----------



## grandpatzer

Quote: 





> I can't emphasize this enough. Headphone recommendations are why Mad Lust Envy's guide exists. I'd provide my own, but when the only headphones I've had substantial gaming experience with are the AD700, SR-Lambda, SR-202, and HE-400, that doesn't give me much of an overall big picture, especially in the $100-250 price range that's easier to swallow.


 
   
  Still considering those reviews in that thread are made considering Console's and mixamp.
  I think maybe on a PC with a highend soundcard other Headphones might be better (or worse) when compared to a Console +mixamp.
   
  Ive read that the Xonar DX is not really the best soundcard for gaming, so I'm considering replacing it with a new one.
   
  Ive read that Creative makes now the best gaming soundcards?
  Is the Sound Blaster Z a good soundcard?
  Or is the Titanium HD a better choice for gaming?


----------



## ssg1

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> You still have the software variant of CMSS-3D Headphone with X-Fi MB, and while it's obviously not as good as the hardware-processed variant in Game Mode, I still prefer it to THX TruStudio Surround.


 
   
   
  I play a lot. I don't play much FPS games which benefit most CMSS-3D, but I do play ArmA-series a lot. Recently I have been playing RTS games. Generally my taste for games is really broad. From Dwarf Fortress to BF3 and everything between. As for music, I haven't listened music for years. I have now been introduction myself to wonderful world of music again. 
   
  I was thinking of getting FiiO E17 as compromise. I would still be able to use CMSS-3D Entertainment via SPDIF and it would be fine enough DAC/AMP for music also. 
  How big is the difference of CMSS-3D Entertainment and CMSS-3D Headphone? How does Titanium HD compare to E17 on music playback? I was wondering could it be worth getting Titanium HD over E17. I do have some mobile devices(phone, 3DS) that could benefit from portable amp, but HD 598 isn't exactly portable headphones. 
   
  I am not in hurry to get either right now. I will wait and see how my music listening and gaming habits evolve. I probably will be listening more music than now but how much is to be seeing. I probably won't be playing more FPS games only because of sounds, but who knows. Maybe I get addicted to Skyrim and spent rest of my year playing it.
   
  Edit: On side note Titanium HD would go between 2 graphics cards since I have crossfire. It would be taking lot of heat in that position.


----------



## HalidePisces

Has anyone taken a look at the Realtek X-Fi mod?

http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183809


----------



## Chubtoad

I have the Annies headphones (AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition) and an Asgard 2 amp. (Astro mixamp for console use)
   
  Just looking for some quick advice on which sound card I should be looking at for a primarily gaming focus. There are a lot of debates as to what sound card is best suited to which hobby.
   
  I've looked at these 3
   
  Asus Xonar Phoebus
  Asus Xonar Essence STX
  Creative X-Fi Titanium HD
   
  now from what I have read around various forums/threads seems to be this
   
  Phoebus - gaming focus with a speaker system
  Essence STX - more music oriented with headphones, but also good for gaming
  X-Fi Titanium HD - pretty much focused on gaming first with headphones, with music/movies/whatever else secondary
   
  I don't really know which one of those, if any, I should pick up, the cheapest is the X-Fi at around 129.99 when price matched (in Canada anyways)
   
  So, any of those? something else? my motherboard is a Gigabyte Z77X-UD5H
   
   

 Audio 
 Realtek ALC898 codec
 Support for X-Fi Xtreme Fidelity® and EAX® Advanced HD™ 5.0 technologies
 High Definition Audio
 2/4/5.1/7.1-channel
 Support for S/PDIF Out
 
   
  I'm sure that onboard audio is really not good in this case, so I'd like to grab a proper soundcard for my setup, unless of course this motherboards chipset is fine.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





ssg1 said:


> I play a lot. I don't play much FPS games which benefit most CMSS-3D, but I do play ArmA-series a lot. Recently I have been playing RTS games. Generally my taste for games is really broad. From Dwarf Fortress to BF3 and everything between. As for music, I haven't listened music for years. I have now been introduction myself to wonderful world of music again.
> 
> I was thinking of getting FiiO E17 as compromise. I would still be able to use CMSS-3D Entertainment via SPDIF and it would be fine enough DAC/AMP for music also.
> How big is the difference of CMSS-3D Entertainment and CMSS-3D Headphone? How does Titanium HD compare to E17 on music playback? I was wondering could it be worth getting Titanium HD over E17. I do have some mobile devices(phone, 3DS) that could benefit from portable amp, but HD 598 isn't exactly portable headphones.
> ...


 
   
  First off, there is no such thing as "CMSS-3D Entertainment". Creative uses the CMSS-3D name to describe three different features, much to everyone's confusion:
   
  -CMSS-3D Headphone. Surround mixing for stereo headphones.
  -CMSS-3D Virtual. Surround mixing for stereo speakers (and quadraphonic speakers, for whatever reason.)
  -CMSS-3D Surround. Speaker fill for stereo sources so it'll play through the rear speakers as well as the front ones for quadraphonic, 5.1, and 7.1 speaker configurations.
   
  Which ones you get obviously depend on which headphone/speaker configuration you have set in the X-Fi control panel.
   
  Second, software CMSS-3D Headphone on a software "X-Fi" device (be it USB or X-Fi MB) doesn't allow MacroFX or Elevation Filter adjustment, though it does seem to do the job regardless. I'd advise leaving the slider right in the middle, where it defaults.
   
  I haven't heard an E17 personally, but I can confirm that the Titanium HD holds its own against the JDS Labs-built ODAC.
   
  Quote: 





halidepisces said:


> Has anyone taken a look at the Realtek X-Fi mod?
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183809


 
   
  Yeah, I've fiddled with those before. They're just X-Fi MB(2) and a bunch of other features applied to stock Realtek drivers, and being a software solution, isn't a replacement for an X-Fi card with the actual EMU20k1/20k2. (Still better than stock Realtek, at any rate!)
   
  Quote: 





chubtoad said:


> I have the Annies headphones (AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition) and an Asgard 2 amp. (Astro mixamp for console use)
> 
> Just looking for some quick advice on which sound card I should be looking at for a primarily gaming focus. There are a lot of debates as to what sound card is best suited to which hobby.
> 
> ...


 
   
  You already have a headphone amp, which kills a lot of the Xonar cards' relative value proposition, and on top of that, the X-Fi Titanium HD just happens to be cheapest for you.
   
  I'd opt for the Titanium HD. It may be a card known for gaming prowess like all true X-Fi cards, but this is one that's also a very capable music card, too. Nice, clean DAC output.


----------



## grandpatzer

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> You already have a headphone amp, which kills a lot of the Xonar cards' relative value proposition, and on top of that, the X-Fi Titanium HD just happens to be cheapest for you.
> 
> I'd opt for the Titanium HD. It may be a card known for gaming prowess like all true X-Fi cards, but this is one that's also a very capable music card, too. Nice, clean DAC output.


 
   
  I own a Xonar DX soundcard, how do you think the ODAC compares to it?
  I'm guessing I'm loosing 8 channels + Dolby Surround with the ODAC?
   
  BTW is this how Xonar DX is correctly setup for competitive gaming:


----------



## MadMag

I will buy the following kit
   
  x-fi titaniun HD > amp? >dt990 Pro 250
   
  Nº1 - I need a amp?
   
  Nº2 - I never had good headphones and sound card.. so i need help maybe a tutorial?
   
  Nº3 - i am not a MLG a just want a gear to hear all my music (rock, metal ,new metal, indie, samba, country,classic,jazz etc.) and have a "imersive" game experience and movie too
   
  sorry for bad english...


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





grandpatzer said:


> I own a Xonar DX soundcard, how do you think the ODAC compares to it?
> I'm guessing I'm loosing 8 channels + Dolby Surround with the ODAC?
> 
> BTW is this how Xonar DX is correctly setup for competitive gaming:


 
   
  It's hard to say when I've never owned a Xonar DX (or any other card with a C-Media chipset), but I'd still expect them to be comparable.
   
  The ODAC does not provide any form of virtualized surround sound or EAX for older games; it's strictly a DAC pitched at audiophiles, not computer gamers.
   
  The settings seem right from what I can tell, provided that Asus was sensible enough to switch Windows to 7.1 speaker mode automatically upon enabling Dolby Headphone. Again, I haven't owned a Xonar card of any sort, so I haven't been able to experiment with the settings and find out what works best.
   
  Quote: 





madmag said:


> I will buy the following kit
> 
> x-fi titaniun HD > amp? >dt990 Pro 250
> 
> ...


 
   
  1 - I wouldn't say you NEED an amp, as the DT990 will actually function plugged straight into the sound card. We're not talking electrostatics here, which literally need a specialized amp (or a powerful speaker amp and a transformer box) due to how they function.
   
  But the DT990 might sound a bit better with a dedicated dynamic/ortho headphone amp, for all I know...plus you get the convenient perk of an amp's volume knob, instead of fiddling with the sound card's own volume.
   
  2 - Is this tutorial for setting up surround sound properly straightforward enough? That aside, just ask whatever questions you have here in the thread, and I'll answer. Naturally, you're going to want Game Mode for gaming, and for serious music listening, possibly Audio Creation Mode with bit-matched playback turned on and a media player with an ASIO plugin.
   
  3 - The X-Fi Titanium HD will deliver on all fronts, rest assured. This isn't a card that sacrifices music fidelity for gaming DSP support; as I said before, this one stands toe to toe with the ODAC. And if you're looking for that "cinematic" experience, the bass has punch, and you can exaggerate it further using the EQ and/or bass boost.


----------



## MadMag

Thanks again...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  recommendation? I heard about Fiio e9 is good pick?


----------



## junrin

I have a mini-itx build, with ONE pcie 3.0 x16 slot, occupied by my 7870, and I have a pair of HE-400's, which i'm running off onboard audio.
   
  can anyone recocmend me a USB dac and amp?


----------



## genclaymore

You might wanna mention a budget, if you don't your gonna get barraged with usb dac amp's in wide ranges of prices including in the thousands.


----------



## junrin

ok, about $200, and preferably small, i don't have much space on my table.
   
  also, is there a way to integrate CMSS-3D/SBX?


----------



## genclaymore

Yes by using optical output of the sound card and plugging it into the optical input of the dac amp. Then using Play stereo mix to Digital out, or what ever the setting is called on the X-FI. Also you might get lucky and find some good deals in the F/S Source section of the forum.


----------



## Evshrug

You might be able to find an older Creative Live! Go > Asus Xonar U3 = current Creative Go! Pro USB. Those are the known USB thumbstick options, who knows if Creative intends to make one with SBX?

If you want better, Creative sells a number of USB surround thingies, but IMO you would do well to skip straight to a Creative Recon3D USB. Personally, I find CMSS3D to be too sharp in the treble, and THX TruStudio Pro is the best sounding virtual surround processing I've heard, BUT all the DSPs have their fans (For me CMSS-3D is too sharp, and DH echos, THX in the Recon3D had a better sense of depth). NamelessPFG has offered to sell his Recon3D USB for ~$65, a good price. It comes with decent cords, so you can adjust volume from the physical device on your desk. I think the Recon3D USB could've been made smaller (some wasted PCB space, also designed to expand with a wireless transmitter for one of Creative's headphones), *but it's still fairly small,* about 1.5x the width of an iPod and almost an inch thick – your desktop amp will probably be bigger. Side bonus: easy enough to bring to a friend's house or hook up to a game console.

 I ran the HE-400 alright off of the Recon3D USB, but somethings like soundstage depth definitely benefitted from double-amping. If you got an amp like the Schiit Magni, FiiO E09k, or a Little Dot i+, you'd still easily be in budget.

Personally, I'd like Creative to revisit the Recon3D USB: remove the wireless expansion, cut the size, integrate a better amp and switch to SBX if they think that's superior tech (haven't heard that DSP myself). Wasn't a problem for me: I just plugged in my tube hybrid amp and everything sounded great.


----------



## junrin

does it have optical out so that i can wire it to the amp? also is THX/SBX/CMSS-3D/Dolby better from experience?


----------



## Evshrug

The Recon3D USB only has a headphone jack for output, so the Recon3D USB would be the DAC, and you would use the headphone jack to make an analogue connection to an amp. All three of the amps I mentioned ONLY accept analogue input anyway.

I've personally tried (in order of most recent) Dolby Headphone, THX TruStudio Pro, the cirrus logic surround used in a DSS2, and Silent Cinema (Yamaha's). Dolby Headphone works pretty well, and it sounds pretty laid back, but it has some environmental reverb/echo to get used to and has less of a sense of depth than Creative's options IMO. DH is Mad Lust Envy's favourite. Silent Cinema is very, very similar to DH, but on my AV receiver I can tweak the sound a lot. I had a hard time getting a good feel for the DSS2's sound, so I can't quantify it's quality. CMSS-3D, I've watched many samples and heard it at a friends house, it actually does a great job of surround, but the treble is uncomfortably sharp for me. CMSS-3D is NamelessPFG's favourite. THX had a great sense of depth, negligible sense of an "echo," and doesn't have the harsh treble (if you turn off Crystalizer and set it up right for you), and thus it was my favorite. It seems pretty clear that your mileage may vary, although the options from Creative allow for the most adjustment and customization, so I personally would recommend CMSS-3D, THX TruStudio Pro, or SBX Pro Studio.


----------



## junrin

how about the X-Fi HD USB, it should have the same sq of the pcie ver. and it has usb, optical in and out.
   
  from what i understand, i think i would enjoy THX the most, but using the X-fi USB, it uses CMSS-3D. is there a way to use THX on the X-Fi HD?


----------



## Ban13

Hello,
   
  I just installed Counter strike: Global Offensive. Because I own a Titanium HD I pointed Creative Alchemy toward "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Counter-Strike Global Offensive," set the duration to 20 (had stutter at 25), left buffer at 4, set audio to 5.1 in game options and set "snd_legacy_surround" to 1 in game's console. I barely played so far, I just wanted to clarify if I maybe missed something or did something wrong. I'm also wondering if I need to start Alchemy every time I start CS:GO or is that a 1 time thing (same with legacy_surround).
   
  Thank you.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





junrin said:


> how about the X-Fi HD USB, it should have the same sq of the pcie ver. and it has usb, optical in and out.
> 
> from what i understand, i think i would enjoy THX the most, but using the X-fi USB, it uses CMSS-3D. is there a way to use THX on the X-Fi HD?


 
   
  Actually, the X-Fi HD USB is, for all intents and purposes, a completely different product than the X-Fi Titanium HD.
   
  Like all USB "X-Fi" products, there's no EMU20k1/20k2 in there, so it doesn't even really deserve the X-Fi branding. It just runs everything in software, like motherboard audio codecs with the X-Fi MB software suite; this is why there's only Entertainment Mode.
   
  And on that note, because only Entertainment Mode is present, you ONLY get THX TruStudio Surround, not CMSS-3D Headphone like the older USB "X-Fi" products that lack the THX branding. To my knowledge, the X-Fi Titanium HD is the only card that lets you choose between the two.
   
  Quote: 





ban13 said:


> I just installed Counter strike: Global Offensive. Because I own a Titanium HD I pointed Creative Alchemy toward "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Counter-Strike Global Offensive," set the duration to 20 (had stutter at 25), left buffer at 4, set audio to 5.1 in game options and set "snd_legacy_surround" to 1 in game's console. I barely played so far, I just wanted to clarify if I maybe missed something or did something wrong. I'm also wondering if I need to start Alchemy every time I start CS:GO or is that a 1 time thing (same with legacy_surround).


 
   
  Everything looks correct.
   
  You don't need to start ALchemy every time; you see, every time you think you're launching ALchemy, you're just launching a convenient GUI frontend for copying a dsound.dll and dsound.ini to your game directories, along with setting parameters in dsound.ini. Really, you could just copy those files from another game folder, edit dsound.ini as necessary, and not bother with Creative's little frontend.
   
  It's like how you don't have to launch the settings window for a 3dfx Glide wrapper like dgVoodoo every time just to play an old game in Glide mode. Simply having the DLL present is good enough, as the game (and presumably other executables in the same directory that call the wrapper DLL) will automatically try to use it.
   
  snd_legacy_surround, like most console variables, also sticks; there is no need to change it every time you start CS:GO or any other Source engine game.


----------



## junrin

Do you think that the X-fi USB is worth it? or would you rather buy the recon USB?
   
  also, how would one wire the compass gd and X-fi/recon 3d in sequence?


----------



## Evshrug

I believe the compass gd is an amp/DAC combo... Isn't digital (like an Optical cable) the only input on the compass? Plus the Compass is pretty large, right? Why are you considering that piece of equipment to pair with your laptop? It isn't a logical choice for your needs or space. Isn't it also WAY outside of your budget?
Edit: looking at audio gd's website, it looks like it does have an analogue input. Also, for $499, you could buy a desktop computer, and then get a PCI soundcard...

I still recommend one of the USB devices I mentioned designed for gaming, then plugging an amp like the Schiit, FiiO, or Little Dot into the headphone jack of the USB device.


----------



## genclaymore

There's USB Input on the compass(old ver) as well, it just also has Digital inputs. There was one being sold on the F/S that was in his budget, unless some one else snatched it already.  He might also get lucky and fine a used NFB 12.0  cheap in the F/S forums.  I would say just get a used cheap X-FI Titanium for like 49ish and use optical from that into a external dac amp. That way he get the stuff he wants while getting the sound performance from a external dac. He can just use the USB  of either compass(old) or a used NFB12.0 and not worry about CMSS3D headphone or Dolby headphone.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> There's USB Input on the compass(old ver) as well, it just also has Digital inputs. There was one being sold on the F/S that was in his budget, unless some one else snatched it already.  He might also get lucky and fine a used NFB 12.0  cheap in the F/S forums. I would say just get a used cheap X-FI Titanium for like 49ish and use optical from that into a external dac amp. That way he get the stuff he wants while getting the sound performance from a external dac. He can just use the USB  of either compass(old) or a used NFB12.0 and not worry about CMSS3D headphone or Dolby headphone.


 
   
  The internal sound card route would be what I would have advised, except for one small problem...
   
  Quote: 





junrin said:


> I have a mini-itx build, with ONE pcie 3.0 x16 slot, occupied by my 7870, and I have a pair of HE-400's, which i'm running off onboard audio.
> 
> can anyone recocmend me a USB dac and amp?


 
   
  Needless to say, PCIe sound cards aren't an option in the first place. Not without basically building a whole new computer (which is the only time motherboard changes are really worth it).


----------



## MadMag

Hey...it's me again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  Previous post i say want to buy a dt990 but ...sunday i see the hd 598 im my hand and hell... they are so good and sexy i still not have the chance to use the dt990 they are so different?
  looks like 598 is more durable its true?
  Mad says you lose in the immersion and internet don't help... is like take a drink from a hydrant
   
  *edit*
   
  hmm i found a guy who selling a used lcd-2 wit a very good price
   
  change dt990 to lcd-2 please help '-'


----------



## Navinabob

Ok, so I decided to dive in and got an AKG 65th.  I'm looking at the FiiO for my amp.  I spent the day looking at sound cards before finding out that my computer's graphic cards eat up all the room I have in there.  So, do I go for the Creative X-fi Surround 5.1 Pro since it is USB, or is there a better bet out there for me?
   
  Cans, amp, card... anything else I'm forgetting?  
   
  Edit: Reading page 103, looks like some of my same questions answered


----------



## Makiah S

a used O stack might run under $200 in the fs thread, but u'd lose mic support


----------



## Ban13

Hello,
   
  I'm trying to capture the best possible sound positioning from BF2 into a video and i was wondering if any of you have any experience with this. I'm not sure what kind of audio codec I should record with, should I go with stereo or...
   
  Thanks.


----------



## jstaff

What would you guys go for if you were going to almost always play video games (first person shooters).
   
  Would you get the titanium HD or the ZxR?
   
  Ive been reading that the ZxR has better components, but I dont think it has cmss-3d.  Im sorry if this has already been answered.
   
Im looking for overall sound quality as well as positioning.  Most likely will be going with a dt990 pro 250ohms


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





jstaff said:


> What would you guys go for if you were going to almost always play video games (first person shooters).
> 
> Would you get the titanium HD or the ZxR?
> 
> ...


 
   
  I'm still going to go with the X-Fi Titanium HD, as I can't imagine a card sounding dramatically better than that, and it has all the gaming features one could ask for.
   
  Plus, it's a good deal cheaper than the ZxR in most places.
   
  Quote: 





ban13 said:


> I'm trying to capture the best possible sound positioning from BF2 into a video and i was wondering if any of you have any experience with this. I'm not sure what kind of audio codec I should record with, should I go with stereo or...


 
   
  If you're aiming to capture what it sounds like over headphones with CMSS-3D Headphone or similar techs on and off, then stereo will do, since the final mix is just two channels anyway. Just make sure you use a codec that isn't too lossy.
   
  Even if you were looking to capture audio in 5.1 or 7.1, you'd have a bigger problem in that most video streaming sites like YouTube only provide two-channel audio.


----------



## duncan1

I wouldn't hesitate at the price the Titanium x-fi hd  is selling for now [less than half price] >original cost £220/ $ 360. Mine works just fine. Creative made a large loss as many PC mags blasted it for being aimed at the Hi-Fi lovers rather than Gamers so not many bought it. Its the "bargain of the Century"-buy now! Remember to register it with Creative and download LATEST drivers.and you get a full audio system plug in.including Creative wave studio.


----------



## jstaff

Thank you for the advice! I kept searching and found where you thought the X-Fi would be better than the ZxR a few months ago. Good to know your opinion hasn't changed nameless. I just bought it. If I'm using dt990 pro, do I need an amp? If so, what would you recommend? O2, magni?


----------



## NamelessPFG

I'd try it without an amp at first. If you aren't satisfied, then consider an Objective2 or Magni.

I admit, I have no experience with either of those; my preference for Stax ensures I don't really look much into conventional headphone amps, for I only have so much to spend and electrostatics are expensive.


----------



## jstaff

Thank you nameless!


----------



## genclaymore

I agree unless you need 5.1 analog, the Titanium HD would be a great choice over the ZXR other then ti being cheaper.  Then if you need a to power a headphone, then just get a headphone amp like it was mention.


----------



## iRo-Fi

Any tips on how would one connect amp to soundcard? For example, M-Stage to Titanium HD. What ports and what kind of RCA cable should i use?


----------



## genclaymore

You plug the The Titanium HD's RCA output into one of the Matrix M-Stage RCA Inputs. You can still set the RCA out on the titanium HD to headphone and it will still come out of the RCA output on the sound card. This what I did when I had a Titanium HD and a Matrix M-Stage.


----------



## iRo-Fi

So that's far right port on that Titanium HD picture? Still confused by what RCA cable i need - single RCA Plug/Plug M/M cable or something like single RCA Plug M to 2 RCA Plug/Plug M/M cable? If that's the latter i couldn't find anything like that on Monoprice.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I'm starting to get really upset with my soundcard. I can't get virtual surround to work for my games at all. Hell, even hooked up my PLYR1 (the base has Dolby Headphone) to the laptop's optical out, and it still is clearly not Dolby Headphone, even after setting the sound settings to dolby digital...

What.

The soundcard is the Recond 3Di which has THX Tru Studio, just like the recond 3D usb I reviewed...

PC gaming... this is one major reason why i avoided it until now. So many stupid settings I have to adjust just to get it to work.


----------



## pietcux

I have a Xonar U1 usb and it works Dolby Headphone 7.1 with every game I have. Can't the Recom work over USB combined with Creatives software suite? I think the optical out is the problem. Or you messed up the windows setup for sound......


----------



## Swordsman

https://www.asus.com/ROG_ROG/ROG_Xonar_Phoebus/
   
  is this card worth buying and pair up with the headphone TS recommended ?


----------



## Echo Six

Hey guys, looking for some advice on a setup. I'm trying to build a reasonably cheap amp/dac setup that will take s/pdif coax or toslink inputs from my PC, Xbox 360 and PS4 (in future) and output to my Soundmagic HP100s while letting me quickly switch between sources. Problem so far is that most headphone amp/dacs have only one or no coax/toslink inputs. So far the best solution I can come up with is installing a Xonar DG in my PC to give me Dolby Headphone, then running toslink from that to a Beresford Bushmaster (2x coax and 2x toslink inputs) dac/amp. From there I can just plug in the Xbox (with coax mod) to the coax input and the PS4 to the other toslink input when I get it. The other option is to buy a more expensive soundcard with one coax and one toslink input and running the xbox/ps4 audio through my PC to a cheaper dedicated amp via USB. At the moment I'm leaning towards the first option which seems like it would involve less hassle when changing inputs, be a little more versatile and a generally more 'elegant' solution despite being more expensive. Or maybe there's an even better solution. Anyway I'd appreciate your input on this, not many people willing to give advice on this so far!


----------



## iRo-Fi

Any help with the cable?


----------



## lennyr

Has anybody heard the Asus Xonar U7?
   
  I have the U3, and like it very much, and am wondering if it's worth an upgrade to get the better S/N ratio and the Dolby Home Theater v4.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

People have compared Dolby Home Theater V4 with Dolby Headphone, and it's been said Dolby Home Theater v4 doesnt measure up.


----------



## pietcux

I have the Asus Xonar U7 incoming. They also have Dolby Home Theater V4 instead of generic Dolby Headphone. I can compare it to my Xonar U1 and to the memory of the Xonar STX then. I hope that it is not a step back for headphonr use.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Generic? Lol.


----------



## pietcux

Why lol? Please qualify.


----------



## pietcux

Ok, I meant original instead of generic. The term has different meanings in different languages.


----------



## dafadau

Hi all,
   
  Awesome thread - bought myself an X-Fi Titanium HD and AKG K550s on the strength of it!
   
  A question though - I've set things up as suggested in this thread CMSS-3d in game mode, creative speaker set up to headphones, windows to 5.1 - my problem is that Skyrim sounds way too quiet unless I enable SVM; otherwise the volume is fine for music and video - but I mostly use my set up for gaming...
   
  Any ideas, or should I be using SVM?


----------



## pietcux

Hi I bought me a ASUS Xonar U7 external sound card last week. I am very impressed. Here is my review:
http://www.head-fi.org/products/xonar-u7-7-1-usb-soundkarte/reviews/9161


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





dafadau said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Awesome thread - bought myself an X-Fi Titanium and AKG K550s on the strength of it!
> 
> ...


 
   
  SVM reduces dynamic range, so quiet sounds and loud sounds are closer to each other volume-wise. I think it's more of a "set to taste" thing.
   
  Quote: 





pietcux said:


> Hi I bought me a ASUS Xonar U7 external sound card last week. I am very impressed. Here is my review:
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/xonar-u7-7-1-usb-soundkarte/reviews/9161


 
   
  Hmmm, if DHTv4's headphone surround IS straight-up Dolby Headphone, and you clearly hear it as such, what settings in the Xonar U7 drivers would properly replicate DH1 and DH2 modes, especially given that the "surround" setting seems to be a percentage slider for whatever reason?
   
  I've been curious about the Xonar U7 myself (mostly because Creative's USB devices are...rather lackluster, to say the least, and laptop gamers deserve something that rivals internal sound cards), but haven't felt like plunking down the dosh for one.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I'm also interested in the U7, but only if Dolby Home theater can truly imitate Dolby Headphone Room 2. If it does, I'd buy it. The Recon3Di's settings having to be constantly adjusted is starting to irritate me like nothing else.

Reading the review, it seems that it is the same... I'm hoping.

Question, is there a simple Dolby on/off button? It'd make my life much easier...

The Recon 3Di's settings are just.... a tedious chore.


----------



## pietcux

Yes there is such a button. Actually you have two interfaces, one for all the Xonar settings including Xear settings, which I found a bit off sounding, sampling and bit rate selection and gain selection for the headphone amp. And the second interface that has complete Dolby settings.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

If you unplug and plug the headphones back in, does it default back to two channel, or will the sound settings stick with 5.1 surround? 

For example:



Everytime I unplug/plug in my headphones, it always defaults to 2 channel, which does not work properly when trying to do the soundcard's virtual surround.

That and if I switch from wanting to go from basic stereo to virtual surround, I ALSO have to switch here...



I had to save the presets...


----------



## pietcux

Just tested it. Yes it keeps Dolby up and running if you unplug the headphone and then later replug it. It even keeps the settings after shutdown and reboot. At least with Windows 7. It also keeps the sampling rate and bitrate settings. Very good for headphone comparison, right?


----------



## SDub

So, the game I play has FMODEx Middleware. It's difficult to find out more understandable information about FMODEx other than this thread. Based on that, would it be wiser to go Xonar or Soundblaster?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





sdub said:


> So, the game I play has FMODEx Middleware. It's difficult to find out more understandable information about FMODEx other than this thread. Based on that, would it be wiser to go Xonar or Soundblaster?


 
   
  In that case, you choose based on whether you prefer CMSS-3D Headphone, Dolby Headphone, or THX TSP/SBX Pro Surround.


----------



## roguegeek

Nameless pointed me in the direction of the X-Fi Titanium HD using CMSS-3D late last year and I couldn't been happier with it.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Anyone have a CMSS-3D usb device they'd wanna lend me? Its the only main virtual surround DSP I havent fully tested yet....


----------



## SDub

I've never been a fan of legacy products, due to their lack of support. What about the Creative Sound Blaster Z? However, the article mentioned that the FMODEx implementation doesn't allow the creative to be as good as they can be, is that still true and should I be considering a ASUS card because of that?
   
  You know how w/foobar2000 you can bypass windows sampling? Can something similar be done with video games? Would that solve the software mixing that FMODEx does?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Anyone have a CMSS-3D usb device they'd wanna lend me? Its the only main virtual surround DSP I havent fully tested yet....


 
   
  I have an X-Fi Go! (non-Pro), but it's a bit crippled for software-mixed titles because it doesn't have a 5.1/7.1 speaker option for Windows to use.
   
  The only one that wouldn't suffer too much is Battlefield 3, but that's just because of Enhanced Stereo Mode. CMSS-3D Headphone still wouldn't be of much use for comparison without the ability to set Windows to 5.1/7.1.
   
  I need to hunt down one of the older X-Fi Surround USB devices that actually do have 5.1 output capability and CMSS-3D Headphone instead of the THX TruStudio feature suite.
   
  Quote: 





sdub said:


> I've never been a fan of legacy products, due to their lack of support. What about the Creative Sound Blaster Z? However, the article mentioned that the FMODEx implementation doesn't allow the creative to be as good as they can be, is that still true and should I be considering a ASUS card because of that?
> 
> You know how w/foobar2000 you can bypass windows sampling? Can something similar be done with video games? Would that solve the software mixing that FMODEx does?


 
   
  Too bad Creative's newest cards are already revealing a lot of drawbacks for a lot of games I still play now and then...and that's setting aside the CMSS-3D vs. SBX preference.
   
  The thing about FMOD Ex-or any software-mixed implementation of game audio, really-is that all the sound card gets in the end is a pre-mixed 5.1/7.1 signal at most. That's why CMSS-3D Headphone can't really show off its true potential. Mind you, it still works really well for those games, but if you actually play something with DirectSound3D or OpenAL...it's a night-and-day difference, immensely better.
   
  As for bypassing Windows sampling...that's not happening with a software-mixed game. DS3D and OAL do it by default because they're talking directly to the sound card drivers (or a software audio renderer like Rapture3D that has ASIO support in its most expensive incarnation), but good luck finding a recent game that uses OpenAL and isn't Amnesia or DiRT.


----------



## SDub

So you would suggest a Titanium as opposed to a Sound Blaster Z it sounds like?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





sdub said:


> So you would suggest a Titanium as opposed to a Sound Blaster Z it sounds like?


 
  The Titanium (non-HD) does not have a headphone amplifier and it's DAC chip is not as good as the Z series DAC chip.
  But the Titanium (non-HD) can pass headphone surround sound thru is S/PDIF optical output
  So you can connect any external optical input DAC (and amp) you like.
   
  Or just could just use the Titanium (non-HD) by itself.
   
  A Titanium HD paired with an external amp should provide some good quality sound.
  (you can plug the external amp. straight to the Titanium HD's RCA outputs and still get headphone surround sound)


----------



## SDub

I'm not an audiophile by any means. Just looking to dominate some noobs in video games!


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





sdub said:


> So you would suggest a Titanium as opposed to a Sound Blaster Z it sounds like?


 
   
  Personally, yes, I would.
   
  Not everyone will agree with me there, but that's the audio market for you.


----------



## CFGamescape

[quote name="PurpleAngel" 
A Titanium HD paired with an external amp should provide some good quality sound.
(you can plug the external amp. straight to the Titanium HD's RCA outputs and still get headphone surround sound)
[/quote]

Is that the preferred way to connect this setup?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





cfgamescape said:


> [quote name="PurpleAngel"
> A Titanium HD paired with an external amp should provide some good quality sound.
> (you can plug the external amp. straight to the Titanium HD's RCA outputs and still get headphone surround sound)


 
 Is that the preferred way to connect this setup?[/quote]

  The T-HD (Titanium HD) audio processor seems to have lots of hardware features and the T-HD comes with a nice DAC (PCM1794) chip.
  It's headphone output seems to be fairly decent, for something that does not come with a "true" headphone amplifier.
  As the T-HD can send processed headphone surround sound out it's RCA jacks, you can hook just about any external headphone amplifier you like to the T-HD's RCA outputs.
  Also when output analog audio thru the RCA jacks, all three op-amps are being used, where only two op-amps are used for the headphone output.
  The "third" op-amp (used for RCA output) is slightly better then the two other op-amps.
  The T-HD's RCA outputs should provide a cleaner analog audio signal, compared to the T-HD's headphone output.


----------



## pox67

purpleangel said:


> The Titanium (non-HD) does not have a headphone amplifier and it's DAC chip is not as good as the Z series DAC chip.
> But the Titanium (non-HD) can pass headphone surround sound thru is S/PDIF optical output
> So you can connect any external optical input DAC (and amp) you like.




Interesting. I just picked up a X-Fi Titanium to use with a 5.1 speaker setup but I was wondering what to do about headphones. From what you have said though something like the Audioengine D1 Premium 24-Bit DAC plugged in to the optical out would be OK?


----------



## Tato23

Any place to buy the U7 on the cheaper end without going to EBay? Also do you recommend this u7 with an internal sound card? Or Can this do just as well working off on board sound?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





pox67 said:


> Interesting. I just picked up a X-Fi Titanium to use with a 5.1 speaker setup but I was wondering what to do about headphones. From what you have said though something like the Audioengine D1 Premium 24-Bit DAC plugged in to the optical out would be OK?


 
  The AudioEngine D1 should plug right into the Titanium's optical jack, so should work fine.


----------



## SDub

So I picked up the Sound Blaster Z. Couple things:
   
  1. Installation process was the worst thing ever.
  2. In C3 (FMOD middleware) there is no spacial awareness
  3. Sound of Music has changed, but I 'm not sure if its better or worse.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





sdub said:


> So I picked up the Sound Blaster Z. Couple things:
> 
> 1. Installation process was the worst thing ever.
> 2. In C3 (FMOD middleware) there is no spacial awareness
> 3. Sound of Music has changed, but I 'm not sure if its better or worse.


 
  Did you "disable" the on-board audio? (in the BIOS).


----------



## SDub

Yes, I did. I just want to clarify, there is spatial awareness, but it's almost the exact same as w/my Realtek onboard.


----------



## pietcux

Quote: 





tato23 said:


> Any place to buy the U7 on the cheaper end without going to EBay? Also do you recommend this u7 with an internal sound card? Or Can this do just as well working off on board sound?


 
  I got mine from Amazon Germany, the dealer was in the UK. It should appear in retail stores soon. It gets its digital signal via usb, it has to be set as the standard device, but it sets itself as this on driver installation. I have the Xonar U1 and U7 connected for comparison purposes. I can switch at any time by changing the standard device in the properties of the speaker symbol @ Windows 7 taskbar. so my onboard card is disabled there and just not used.


----------



## chili dude96

Hey nameless. I have a few questions. I am planning on buying an A900X for gaming and I'm wondering how much benefit I would get from putting in a soundcard. I currently have an old creative audigy 2 sound blaster zs lying around and my motherboard has the Realteck ALC892 audio codec. I'm wondering if a cheap card, say in the Asus Xonar series, would be any better than one of these options.
   
  My motherboard's onboard audio seems to have the same specs as the Xonar series - see manufacturer description below.
   
  "Only MSI offers the Loss-less 24-bit/192KHz HD Audio function with an incredible 109 SNR dB value to provide the most clear & vivid HD audio quality and support 7.1 channels surround sound playback with a 2-channel independent stereo output (multiple streaming) through the front panel 3.5 inch phone jack.


----------



## jbkappirossi

hello, my first post here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 
I was wondering if someone could give me some advice about headsets for PC,
because my current Headphones isn't going to cut it anymore. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pro-luxe-Stereo-Heardphone-OA-800-/261185499701?pt=UK_AudioVisualElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Headphones&hash=item3ccfde7235&nma=true&si=NCAbT%252BdqriuKi9Npi93mjxWiUDo%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 It's a piece of crap 1st class, that muts i can tell you about it. So i basicly need a new one.
 
I think i need an al rounder. I play a lot of games and also watch a lot of movies on my PC and ofcourse a lot of Music aswell. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 
I also wan't one with a microphone, because i now use a Logitech 9000 pro usb mic, witch is also absolute crap. People online always complain that it starts freaking out when i rais my voice.
 
I have been reading and searcing for a bit the last 2 days and thus far i found these 2;
- http://steelseries.com/products/audio/steelseries-siberia-v2#specifications
- http://en-de.sennheiser.com/gaming-headset-stereo-pc-320
 
Initially i'd go with the Siberia v2, but then i found the PC 320, wich is 15,- cheaper. Then i read somewhere that most budget sennheisers are crap and only the highend sennheisers are worth it?
 
I got about 100,- euros to spend on a new headset, cheaper is Always better, but if something is really worth the money then i consider a bit more. PC 360 is above my budget realy.


----------



## SDub

Quote: 





jbkappirossi said:


> hello, my first post here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I think you'll find that a lot of people on this site urge you to get a headphone + standalone microphone as opposed to a _headset._ So, that being said with your stated budget and intent I might recommend:
   
  1. http://www.amazon.com/Technica-ATH-AD700-Open-air-Audiophile-Headphones/dp/B000CMS0XU
  2. http://www.amazon.com/Zalman-Zm-Mic1-Sensitivity-Headphone-Microphone/dp/B00029MTMQ/ref=pd_bxgy_e_img_y
   
  It is slightly out of your price range but well worth it! Don't take my word for it though, let all these other audio people give you suggestions too!


----------



## jbkappirossi

Quote: 





sdub said:


> I think you'll find that a lot of people on this site urge you to get a headphone + standalone microphone as opposed to a _headset._ So, that being said with your stated budget and intent I might recommend:
> 
> 1. http://www.amazon.com/Technica-ATH-AD700-Open-air-Audiophile-Headphones/dp/B000CMS0XU
> 2. http://www.amazon.com/Zalman-Zm-Mic1-Sensitivity-Headphone-Microphone/dp/B00029MTMQ/ref=pd_bxgy_e_img_y
> ...


 
  hi, yea, i read some good things about the AD700 here, but after a quick google they only seem to be avialable true ebay and amazon and i don't like that, it means a lot of tax and customs cost if they intercept it at the border.
   
  Maybe it's just me but i've had it with seperate Mic's. It's not realy convenient. Now, i have to replace my mic everytime i use it and place it right in front of my keyboard, where it pretty muts is always in the way.
   
  Maybe i'll get an audio grade headphone lateron, but for now i'd rather have an al in one solution.


----------



## SDub

That stand alone microphone clips to your headphone line. It won't be placed on your desk at all. There are a lot of options that don't need to be placed on your desk. I think a thread you should look into for more insight on a TON of headphones/headsets is this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-updated-5-23-2013-mrspeakers-mad-dog-v-3-2-reviewed


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





chili dude96 said:


> Hey nameless. I have a few questions. I am planning on buying an A900X for gaming and I'm wondering how much benefit I would get from putting in a soundcard. I currently have an old creative audigy 2 sound blaster zs lying around and my motherboard has the Realteck ALC892 audio codec. I'm wondering if a cheap card, say in the Asus Xonar series, would be any better than one of these options.
> 
> My motherboard's onboard audio seems to have the same specs as the Xonar series - see manufacturer description below.
> 
> "Only MSI offers the Loss-less 24-bit/192KHz HD Audio function with an incredible 109 SNR dB value to provide the most clear & vivid HD audio quality and support 7.1 channels surround sound playback with a 2-channel independent stereo output (multiple streaming) through the front panel 3.5 inch phone jack.


 
  It will only cost you $20 to buy a used Xonar DG from Amazon, to find out.
  I really like my ATH-A900Xs, my A900X took a month of break in to sound their best.


----------



## jbkappirossi

Quote: 





sdub said:


> That stand alone microphone clips to your headphone line. It won't be placed on your desk at all. There are a lot of options that don't need to be placed on your desk. I think a thread you should look into for more insight on a TON of headphones/headsets is this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-updated-5-23-2013-mrspeakers-mad-dog-v-3-2-reviewed


 
  thx, but i found that thread some days ago already, but haven't found anything about the PC320 or SS V2.
  One in that thread that would be an option is the skullcandy slyr, but then again no comparison btween the 2 above.
   
  edit; anyone know what diameter speakers are in the PC320. the SS V2 has 50mm ones. Should give you a little dieper base then 40mm wich i think are in the PC320's?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Big drivers =/= quality. The Turtle beach Z2 has 50mm drivers, and they are among the worst full-size headphones I've ever heard. the bass wasn't even strong for a cheap headset.

If you need a cheap headset, I'd honestly go for the Skullcandy Slyr. Very good sound for $80. Great sound signature, good bass and energy. Throw away the Skullcandy bias (if you have it) and you'll see... they are really good cans.


----------



## jbkappirossi

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Big drivers =/= quality. The Turtle beach Z2 has 50mm drivers, and they are among the worst full-size headphones I've ever heard. the bass wasn't even strong for a cheap headset.
> 
> If you need a cheap headset, I'd honestly go for the Skullcandy Slyr. Very good sound for $80. Great sound signature, good bass and energy. Throw away the Skullcandy bias (if you have it) and you'll see... they are really good cans.


 
  thx man.
   
  Have you tested al of them? I know you have tested the skullcandy slyr, but that's also the most expansive one at 80,- euros. the SSv2 costs 74,- and the PC-320 = 60,- here in holland.
  Your not making it any easier tho. First on gut feelings alone i would have gone with the SS V2, but after i found this PC320 for a nice price i lean towards that, but now i don't know anymore.
   
  I use it with onboard sound. On a Gigabyte G1 killer Sniper 3 wich has a Recon3D chip and Nichicon capaciters and a dedicated Headphone amp al slaped on the motherboard. I was actually pretty surpriced. It blew away my technics stereo amp wich i used before to power my headphones.
   
  I was also looking to buy a secondhand Asus Essence ST, but still waiting for an agreement with the seller.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

The V2 was a pretty popular headset back in the day, so it's a safe choice, though I haven't heard it. It may be better than the Slyr as it's open, and the Slyr is closed. Not sure on the PC320.


----------



## jbkappirossi

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> The V2 was a pretty popular headset back in the day, so it's a safe choice, though I haven't heard it. It may be better than the Slyr as it's open, and the Slyr is closed. Not sure on the PC320.


 
  I read somewhere the PC320 is also open design.
   
  edit;
   It sais here the SS V2 is a closed design. http://steelseries.com/products/audio/steelseries-siberia-v2


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Oh... odd. I owned the V1, and it looks identical to the V2, just in a smaller form with velour pads. Those were very, very open. My mistake.


----------



## jbkappirossi

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Oh... odd. I owned the V1, and it looks identical to the V2, just in a smaller form with velour pads. Those were very, very open. My mistake.


 
  NP. I might just aswell go with the cheapest one, the PC320 G4me for only 60. This guy is pretty optimistic about it. He sais; little les detailed, but better base then PC360. http://youtu.be/jrqWnWPn3Ak


----------



## CFGamescape

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> The T-HD (Titanium HD) audio processor seems to have lots of hardware features and the T-HD comes with a nice DAC (PCM1794) chip.
> It's headphone output seems to be fairly decent, for something that does not come with a "true" headphone amplifier.
> As the T-HD can send processed headphone surround sound out it's RCA jacks, you can hook just about any external headphone amplifier you like to the T-HD's RCA outputs.
> Also when output analog audio thru the RCA jacks, all three op-amps are being used, where only two op-amps are used for the headphone output.
> ...


 

 Thanks for the thorough explanation!


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





chili dude96 said:


> Hey nameless. I have a few questions. I am planning on buying an A900X for gaming and I'm wondering how much benefit I would get from putting in a soundcard. I currently have an old creative audigy 2 sound blaster zs lying around and my motherboard has the Realteck ALC892 audio codec. I'm wondering if a cheap card, say in the Asus Xonar series, would be any better than one of these options.
> 
> My motherboard's onboard audio seems to have the same specs as the Xonar series - see manufacturer description below.
> 
> "Only MSI offers the Loss-less 24-bit/192KHz HD Audio function with an incredible 109 SNR dB value to provide the most clear & vivid HD audio quality and support 7.1 channels surround sound playback with a 2-channel independent stereo output (multiple streaming) through the front panel 3.5 inch phone jack."


 
   
  You have a decent sound card already...but keep in mind that I've never actually touched an Audigy (EMU10k2) card of any sort. I skipped straight from Live! (EMU10k1) to X-Fi (EMU20k1/20k2). Thus, I'm not as certain how to work their drivers, and there's a chance that their older CMSS implementation may not have proper headphone surround.
   
RPGWiZaRD had one for a long while and ran it with the kX Project drivers and a specially-configured Surrounder plugin for headphone surround, though. Only problem is, kX drivers have broken EAX effects last time I tried 'em on that old Live! card, so they're probably a better fit for games with software-mixed audio. (He's since went to integrated Realtek codecs set to 5.1, though...something I could never, ever bring myself to do. Too much of a step down for me, but we all hear differently.)
   
  Specs are one thing, but as always, manufacturers can throw numbers around all day...and only you can decide which is better using your own senses (and a bit of calibration on everything, to level the playing field between competing products). Sound cards, headphones, monitors, whatever, it's all the same when it comes to things like that.


----------



## Arkanius

Hello there!

 My setup is as follows:
   
  Senheiser PC350
  X-Fi Titanium 
  Windows 8 (24-bit 96 kHz option)
   
  I understand that the best option for music is to select Audio-Creation mode and bit-matched playback.
  I understood as well the whole aspect of setting the windows source as 7.1, activating CMSS-3D in Gaming mode with the Headphones option activated, for the best positional sound possible.
  The thing is, I really think games don't sound correctly this way. It might give a good positional audio, but I think the sound quality is suffering.
   
  Don't most games nowadays, provide through their own software, positional audio if Headphones or 2.1 sources are activated in the settings?
  Isn't it better in this case, to activate audio-creation mode and select Bit-Matched playback, and let the game do the positional audio for us (Preserving the quality of the sources?)
   
  Sorry if I'm being an idiot, but genuine question. I'm pulling my hairs trying to do the best configuration for my games and music. 
   
  EDIT:

 The games I play daily are Source games.
  DOTA2, CS:Go
   
  The other games are occasional. So I'm interested in maximizing my SQ for Source games


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





chili dude96 said:


> Hey nameless. I have a few questions. I am planning on buying an A900X for gaming and I'm wondering how much benefit I would get from putting in a sound card. I currently have an old creative Audigy 2 Sound Blaster ZS lying around and my motherboard has the Realteck ALC892 audio codec. I'm wondering if a cheap card, say in the Asus Xonar series, would be any better than one of these options.
> 
> My motherboard's on-board audio seems to have the same specs as the Xonar series - see manufacturer description below.
> 
> "Only MSI offers the Loss-less 24-bit/192KHz HD Audio function with an incredible 109 SNR dB value to provide the most clear & vivid HD audio quality and support 7.1 channels surround sound playback with a 2-channel independent stereo output (multiple streaming) through the front panel 3.5 inch phone jack.


 
  You might consider getting the Creative Labs Titanium (non-HD) sound card, you can get a used one for around $50-$60 off eBay.
  I'm going to guess(?) the Titanium (non-HD) will offer at least a little better sound quality, over the Audigy 2 ZS (that's an old card).


----------



## Goride

Has anyone used the Razer Surround program? 

 http://www.razerzone.com/surround?src=pgm.91612700&utm_source=RazerStore&utm_campaign=RzrSurround&utm_medium=edm_EN 



 What exactly is this? Is this essentially a program that handles the DSP portion? So if you could output via optical and used this program, would you still need a special sound card with a 3d positioning DPS?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





arkanius said:


> My setup is as follows:
> Senheiser PC350
> X-Fi Titanium
> Windows 8 (24-bit 96 kHz option)
> ...


 
  (My two cents for improving over all sound quality)
  Is this sound card the Titanium (non-HD) or the T-HD (Titanium HD)?
   
  With the Titanium (non-HD), you could add an external (optical input) DAC & headphone amplifier.
  Something like the Audioengine D1 ($175)
  The D1 comes with a better DAC then the Titanium (non-HD) and a true headphone amplifier (the Titanium non-HD does not)
  So the D1 should improve the over all sound quality of the Senn PC350, or any future headphones you get.
  The Titanium (non-HD) can pass headphone surround sound thru it's optical output.
   
  If you have the T-HD, just get an external headphone amplifier (Schiit Magni $99) and connect it to the Titanium HD's analog RCA outputs.
  The T-HD can pass headphone surround sound thru is RCA outputs.


----------



## Merzbro

Just learned that Razer has their own virtual surround implementation now.
   
  http://www.razerzone.com/surround
   
  Apparently it creates virtual 7.1 a la Dolby Headphone.


----------



## Arkanius

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> (My two cents for improving over all sound quality)
> Is this sound card the Titanium (non-HD) or the T-HD (Titanium HD)?
> 
> With the Titanium (non-HD), you could add an external (optical input) DAC & headphone amplifier.
> ...


 
   
  I have the Titanium (Non HD)
  I have thought about getting an external DAC (for controling sound with a knob and to drive the headphones better), but I was always a bit reluctant due the two jacks my headphones have. It would stay a messy build.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





arkanius said:


> I have the Titanium (Non HD)
> I have thought about getting an external DAC (for controlling sound with a knob and to drive the headphones better), but I was always a bit reluctant due the two jacks my headphones have. It would stay a messy build.


 
  Just get a 3.5mm (1/8") male/female extension cable for the mic connection.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





merzbro said:


> Just learned that Razer has their own virtual surround implementation now.
> 
> http://www.razerzone.com/surround
> 
> Apparently it creates virtual 7.1 a la Dolby Headphone.


 
  Because of this I took the Recon3D PCi-E out my comp that I was running a optical from into my external dac amp, since this does a good job in games so far. I not worried about old EAX5 effects since I don't play games that uses it any way. Even if I did it wouldn't bugged me as I moved past EAX.


----------



## CFGamescape

Quote: 





merzbro said:


> Just learned that Razer has their own virtual surround implementation now.
> 
> http://www.razerzone.com/surround
> 
> Apparently it creates virtual 7.1 a la Dolby Headphone.


 
  I'll be giving this a try.  Don't have high hopes, so hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## 3X0

If it works well, it'll be absolutely groundbreaking. Dolby Headphone, CMSS3D and other virtualization technology requires hardware-level support. This is hardware-agnostic so you can use it on crappy onboard audio.
   
  Thanks for the link; I've been looking for something like this for a while.


----------



## pietcux

Gave it try. Ran this software and then the U7 in stereo mode as amp. Bad Company 2. It works very good. I now need to know where the catch is? A company like Razer normally does not donate something without a hidden agenda.


----------



## Arkanius

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> (My two cents for improving over all sound quality)
> Is this sound card the Titanium (non-HD) or the T-HD (Titanium HD)?
> 
> With the Titanium (non-HD), you could add an external (optical input) DAC & headphone amplifier.
> ...


 
   
   
  Is the Audioengine D1 DACs one of the best at that price point?
  Also, if I link the Soundcard and the DAC through Optical, I'm basically skipping the DAC and the amplifier, everything else works the same (CMSS3D, Bit-perfect playback, etc etc)
   
  I really might take the bite along with some new Ear pads for my PC350 (The old ones are falling apart, and I'm losing bass since they are progressively getting more "open" )


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





arkanius said:


> Is the Audioengine D1 DACs one of the best at that price point?
> Also, if I link the Soundcard and the DAC through Optical, I'm basically skipping the DAC and the amplifier, everything else works the same (CMSS3D, Bit-perfect playback, etc etc)
> 
> I really might take the bite along with some new Ear pads for my PC350 (The old ones are falling apart, and I'm losing bass since they are progressively getting more "open" )


 
  People who own the AudioEngine D1 seem to like it, I really do not see much, if any negative things said about the D1.
  Connecting the D1 to the Sound Blaster Titanium's optical output, bypass the Titanium's DAC (The Titanium does not have an amplifier),
  And you still have access the the Titanium sound card features.
   
  The D1 should work well with just about any headphone you might replace the PC350 with (in the future)


----------



## Fegefeuer

I had some 15 minutes to test the Razer with BF3+HD 800 through my DAC. From what I could gather in those few minutes the SQ is changed worse than CMSS-3D in a few parts and the imagery is not consistent throughout in terms of accurate positioning. It feels kinda weird.
   
  Yes, BF3 itself is not the most accurate in rendering but this software just does worse than DHP, SBX and CMSS-3D so far. I'll need to test more though (tonight).


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





arkanius said:


> Hello there!
> 
> My setup is as follows:
> 
> ...


 
   
  Bit-matched playback in Audio Creation Mode only really works with ASIO.
   
  No game outputs through ASIO. (Unless you paid the whopping 500 GBP for Rapture3D Advanced Edition and set it up with an OpenAL game, that is.) Thus, there's no point. Might as well just run in Game Mode with CMSS-3D Headphone off if you wanna do it that way.
   
  However, the whole point is that the vast majority of games with software-mixed audio do NOT mix with headphones in mind. They'll probably mix with stereo speakers in mind, thus expecting the sounds to be localized more in front of you than beside you, and in especially bad cases, will only have one-dimensional left/right panning for positioning. That's why headphone surround features on sound cards are in demand.
   
  Battlefield 3 with Enhanced Stereo Mode is probably the only exception to the rule I can find. The DiRT titles with Rapture3D Game Edition bundled don't really count since they're just running OpenAL and feeding it to a software OpenAL renderer in that case.
   
  Quote: 





fegefeuer said:


> I had some 15 minutes to test the Razer with BF3+HD 800 through my DAC. From what I could gather in those few minutes the SQ is changed worse than CMSS-3D in a few parts and the imagery is not consistent throughout in terms of accurate positioning. It feels kinda weird.
> 
> Yes, BF3 itself is not the most accurate in rendering but this software just does worse than DHP, SBX and CMSS-3D so far. I'll need to test more though (tonight).


 
   
  Whoa, an HD800? I'd like to audition one of those some day, just to find out if all the hype for gaming is justified.
   
  As for BF3 specifically, where do you think Enhanced Stereo Mode stands compared to the usual sound card-based solutions?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

the BF3 enhanced stereo? I don't like it. AT ALL. It still sounds like stereo.


----------



## Arkanius

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Bit-matched playback in Audio Creation Mode only really works with ASIO.
> 
> No game outputs through ASIO. (Unless you paid the whopping 500 GBP for Rapture3D Advanced Edition and set it up with an OpenAL game, that is.) Thus, there's no point. Might as well just run in Game Mode with CMSS-3D Headphone off if you wanna do it that way.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Got it.
  I've been investingating, and it seems Source games use OpenAL only on the MacOSX and Linux implementations. For Windows they use MILES.
  It seems the only way to get great Surround for headphones is to use the 7.1/7.1 -> CMSS 3D method right?


----------



## Fegefeuer

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> the BF3 enhanced stereo? I don't like it. AT ALL. It still sounds like stereo.


 
  I agree.
   
  For BF3 try the following:
   
  GstAudio.AudioQuality 0
  GstAudio.SoundSystemSize 64
  GstAudio.StereoMode 0
  GstAudio.YourSoundSystem 3
   
  either as a "user.cfg" in the root folder or directly in the profile-save. You should only do this if you use SBX/CMSS-3D/Dolby Headphone and of course have Windows set to 5.1/7.1


----------



## pietcux

I did my test with BfBC 2 single player disabled all other processing which means stereo on the Xonar U7 Dolby off. W7 64 headphone Ultrasone PRO-550. I found the sound to be very immersive with good directional cues. I will also do further testing maybe tonight.


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Bit-matched playback in Audio Creation Mode only really works with ASIO.
> 
> No game outputs through ASIO. (Unless you paid the whopping 500 GBP for Rapture3D Advanced Edition and set it up with an OpenAL game, that is.) Thus, there's no point. Might as well just run in Game Mode with CMSS-3D Headphone off if you wanna do it that way.
> 
> ...


 
  whoa, so that's the differences between the model of rapture, but who's crazy enough to pay 500 for that model.


----------



## Yanoflies

Xonar DGX
  AD900X
  FiiO E12
   
  I'm having trouble with my positioning in CS:GO here, any help?
   
  1. My amplifer inverts the sound ... left comes from the right and right from the left (i.e. I use window's testing and the ding will be on the right  when it's meant to be on the left and vice versa). What is causing this and how do I fix it?
   
  2. What's do most people use for positioning with the DGX? I tried 2ch, 6ch and 8 ch (w/ Dolby on/off). In-game I tried headphones and 5.1.


----------



## Chubtoad

OK I've been having a strange problem with my setup, I don't know exactly how to describe it but when I am moving my mouse around on the desktop or just surfing the net its constantly making some kind of whirly/whistly static/interfence type of noise (sorry don't really know how to describe it). 
   
  However I just tested and it only happens when I am running my headphones through my amplifier, I don't hear it when I'm connected directly to my sound card. What would be causing the amp to make this noise?
   
  Sound Card: X-Fi Titanium HD
  Amp: Schiit Asgard 2
  Headphones: AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition
   
  I'd like to figure out how to fix this as its extremely annoying to hear this noise almost constantly on the desktop. Also, when gaming if its quiet I can hear a humming type of noise as well with the amp, but its not there when just plugged directly into the soundcard.
   
  I'm connecting the amp through RCA to RCA cables, although they are pretty crappy old cables, I have ordered some premium monoprice cables to see if that makes any difference or not.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





yanoflies said:


> Xonar DGX
> AD900X
> FiiO E12
> 
> ...


 
  I would guess the ATH-AD900Xs sound fairly good plugged straight into the DGX?


----------



## pietcux

Quote: 





chubtoad said:


> OK I've been having a strange problem with my setup, I don't know exactly how to describe it but when I am moving my mouse around on the desktop or just surfing the net its constantly making some kind of whirly/whistly static/interfence type of noise (sorry don't really know how to describe it).
> 
> However I just tested and it only happens when I am running my headphones through my amplifier, I don't hear it when I'm connected directly to my sound card. What would be causing the amp to make this noise?
> 
> ...


 
  It could be the mouse's digital signal disturbing the amp's analog stage. This is more likely when you are using a wireless mouse but can also happen when you use a wired setup.


----------



## Chubtoad

my mouse is a wired logitech G400 plugged into the usb 2.0 on the rear of my case.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





chubtoad said:


> OK I've been having a strange problem with my setup, I don't know exactly how to describe it but when I am moving my mouse around on the desktop or just surfing the net its constantly making some kind of whirly/whistly static/interfence type of noise (sorry don't really know how to describe it).
> 
> However I just tested and it only happens when I am running my headphones through my amplifier, I don't hear it when I'm connected directly to my sound card. What would be causing the amp to make this noise?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Hmmm...that IS a strange issue, since you said that it goes away once the amp's disconnected.
   
  Have you tried reducing or even muting the digital volume for the card in Windows, then listening through the amp if the noise is still there?
   
  Also, do you have any other sources you could connect that amp to for a quick listening test?
   
  You know, the usual things that could help us isolate the issue...I'd certainly hate for such an expensive amp to turn out faulty, at any rate.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





chubtoad said:


> OK I've been having a strange problem with my setup, I don't know exactly how to describe it but when I am moving my mouse around on the desktop or just surfing the net its constantly making some kind of whirly/whistly static/interfence type of noise (sorry don't really know how to describe it).
> However I just tested and it only happens when I am running my headphones through my amplifier, I don't hear it when I'm connected directly to my sound card. What would be causing the amp to make this noise?
> Sound Card: X-Fi Titanium HD
> Amp: Schiit Asgard 2
> ...


 
  Try connecting the Asgard 2 to the T-HD's (Titanium HD) 3.5mm headphone/line-out jack, see if you still get the interferance.


----------



## Chubtoad

plugging it into the headphone jack using my monoprice 3.5mm to rca cables i still get the same noise.
   
  I switched the amp to another power strip and the noise has been dramatically reduced but its still audible, both with RCA to RCA, and 3.5mm to RCA. (At the same volume settings as before)
   
  I haven't tried the asgard 2 yet with my mixamp and consoles so I dont know if there would be any hum noise there yet.
   
  I am embarassed to say that my cabling/power strip situation right now is a mess, so maybe the new RCA cables will reduce the noise altogether, and possibly a new power strip as the ones I have now are pretty crappy.
   
  any other suggestions to try?  I have the digital in muted right now as well


----------



## CFGamescape

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> the BF3 enhanced stereo? I don't like it. AT ALL. It still sounds like stereo.


 

 What settings do you use/recommend for BF3?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I just use Hifi, small ceneter speaker (which I assume raises center volume, to compensate for small ceneter audio). I admit that that I haven't touched BF3 much, but I'm not a fan of it's sound engine. I mean it's great quality, but it doesn't do virtual surround well.


----------



## Evshrug

I should download BF3, since I bought it on Steam. Right now though I'm more worried about drawing


----------



## Murder Mike

Quote: 





evshrug said:


> I should download BF3, since I bought it on *Steam*. Right now though I'm more worried about drawing


 
  You mean Origin I assume?


----------



## SniperCzar

So, Razer released some new virtual surround software. Somebody on youtube made a quick CMSS comparison -


----------



## Tato23

Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> So, Razer released some new virtual surround software. Somebody on youtube made a quick CMSS comparison -


 
  Is it bad that I can't tell to much of difference?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I do. It's easy. Razer Surround to me has NO rear positional accuracy, at all. The soundstage is a half moon, with the lit part being in front of you. All rear positional cues are basically going through your head instead of behind you. CMSS-3D makes a much easier distinction between what's in front and what's behind, though I still don't think it touches Dolby Headphone or even THX Tru Studio which do an even better job of portraying rear positional cues. The good thing about CMSS-3D is that it's not as processed sounding as the latter two, so I'd choose it over stereo, if only because it makes some sort of attempt to differentiate between front and back. Razer surround is... well, it's free for a reason. Razer Surround is like Stereo 1.5. It does a good job portraying side to front cues, but does little to nothing for things behind you in the virtual space. In that vid, the positional cues on the Razer weren't even aligned with the actual placement.


----------



## Chubtoad

So I still have not been able to fix my problem with the mouse causing an interference noise. It also appears to make the noise when the GPU is kind of under load, such as on websites with flash/etc.
   
  From what I've been reading it sounds like a problem lots of people have experienced, and some possible solutions are to move the sound card to a different PCI express slot on the motherboard, or move the GPU furthur away from the sound card.
   
  My motherboard is a Gigabyte Z77X-UD5H, video card is a Gigabyte GTX 670 windforce.
   
   
  another solution I've seen suggested is replacing the sound card, which doesn't really seem like a good solution to me. I suppose I'll try moving the sound card and seeing if that helps anything.


----------



## pietcux

Did you tell us which soundcard you are using?


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> I do. It's easy. Razer Surround to me has NO rear positional accuracy, at all. The soundstage is a half moon, with the lit part being in front of you. All rear positional cues are basically going through your head instead of behind you. CMSS-3D makes a much easier distinction between what's in front and what's behind, though I still don't think it touches Dolby Headphone or even THX Tru Studio which do an even better job of portraying rear positional cues. The good thing about CMSS-3D is that it's not as processed sounding as the latter two, so I'd choose it over stereo, if only because it makes some sort of attempt to differentiate between front and back. Razer surround is... well, it's free for a reason. Razer Surround is like Stereo 1.5. It does a good job portraying side to front cues, but does little to nothing for things behind you in the virtual space. In that vid, the positional cues on the Razer weren't even aligned with the actual placement.


 
  For me you can and it does work and it not blasting around your head, unless your calibrated it wrong, you just have to con fig it to your ears correctly and disable the bass boost and volume normalization, i been using it for a couple of days now and i can  tell what behind me with accuracy. Unless it depends on how you con fig it and which headphones you had. Because the only setting I use is the stereo enhacment and nothing else and it doesn't mess up the sound for me.
   
  It wasn't like CMSS3D headphone which jacked up the bass and cause it to static as well messing up the sound which what CMSS3D headphone did no matte rhow i config it. The only time it didn't was when i had AD700 headphones.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





genclaymore said:


> It wasn't like CMSS3D headphone which jacked up the bass and cause it to static as well messing up the sound which what CMSS3D headphone did no matte rhow i config it. The only time it didn't was when i had AD700 headphones.


 
   
  Are you sure you didn't have any cheezy EAX or crystalizer effects running that are usually enabled by default?

 The other think that I believe helps on some headphones is actually unchecking the subwoofer in Windows speaker config wizard. Alternatively just EQ the bass down to where you like it.


----------



## Chubtoad

Quote: 





pietcux said:


> Did you tell us which soundcard you are using?


 
  I did in an earlier post,  Creative X-Fi Titanium HD


----------



## genclaymore

Quote: 





sniperczar said:


> Are you sure you didn't have any cheezy EAX or crystalizer effects running that are usually enabled by default?
> 
> The other think that I believe helps on some headphones is actually unchecking the subwoofer in Windows speaker config wizard. Alternatively just EQ the bass down to where you like it.


 
  I always turn those effects off I even unchecked the subwoofer and it still did it.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I suspect those who would enjoy Razer are those who enjoy stereo. Its a step up from at least that.


----------



## pietcux

Quote: 





chubtoad said:


> I did in an earlier post,  Creative X-Fi Titanium HD


 
  Another question, do you use the cards rear output or the front output of your PC? I had a lot of noises in my sound when I tried on using the PC's front out with former Xonar STX. The front out cable was lead close by the processor and the other high MHZ/GHZ frequency chips on the board. That is why I have an external Xonar U7 today.


----------



## Chubtoad

Only my front USB slots are hooked up but I don't use them. Everything plugged into the back. I have a coolermaster haf x case. From what I gather its basically EMI from gpu/CPU/mouse or some combination of. My sound card is in the pci express slot sandwiched between my CPU and gpu so maybe if I move it to another free slot but I think the only free slot is right below the gpu since it takes up 2 slots on its own. I could also move the gpu down a slot and see if that helps.

I have a custom heatsink on my CPU the hyper 212+ evo with 2x 120mm fans in push-pull so that also takes up room and kind of limits my slots


----------



## pietcux

PCIE 1x can be inserted into any PCIE 16x slot, so the soundcard could also run underneath the graphics card.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





chubtoad said:


> Only my front USB slots are hooked up but I don't use them. Everything plugged into the back. I have a coolermaster haf x case. From what I gather its basically EMI from gpu/CPU/mouse or some combination of. My sound card is in the pci express slot sandwiched between my CPU and gpu so maybe if I move it to another free slot but I think the only free slot is right below the gpu since it takes up 2 slots on its own. I could also move the gpu down a slot and see if that helps.


 
   
  That could certainly be it. My card in my rig is right in between a decent size RAID card and an even larger Intel NIC, so it gets a bit of shielding from both major sources of interference (PSU and GPU). The small metal cover seems to deal well enough with the other directions/reflections. Surprised I don't have more interference from the GPU especially when I'm busy heavily overclocking my monitor (Yamakasi Catleap IPS). Now I actually pick up much more interference off my cell on the cable itself, and that's a thick hand-braided aftermarket replacement cable (strangely, the wifi router just 3 feet away has no such problems)


----------



## Chubtoad

I'm curious what you guys are leaving your windows volume at. 100%?  I've been testing out different volume levels, 100, 75, and 60.
   
  at 100% windows volume you don't get as much control with the asgard 2 as opposed to 60% obviously, I'm just not sure if there is some sort of recommended level to leave it at. With windows volume at 100% i generally leave the amp at around 9-10 o clock. the hiss/humming noise during games is reduced drastically by doing that as opposed to 60% volume and turning the amp to around 1-2 o clock


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

100% as you're getting the full bit resolution. Normally, music is 16 bit, so if you have a 24 bit dac, you can lower the volume and not lose information as long as the sound properties was changed to 24 bit), but for the piece of mind I don't ever mess with software volume, and keep it maxed. You're also taxing the amp less when you leave the volume on the computer maxed.


----------



## Chubtoad

It's currently set to the default which was 24 bit, 48000 hz (studio quality)
   
  theres an option for 24 bit, 96000 hz (studio quality) as well


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Not sure for every device, but for my Compass 2, I believe Kingwa stated to leave it at the highest possible levels.

32/192 for USB, and 24/96 for SPDIF (at least with the DIR9001 chip). I still think the Spdif sounds just a micro-level better,


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I know people think the U3 is a bad device, but what they're not realizing, is that you can bypass both the amp AND dac and keep Dolby headphone. You just need a spdif dac (not sure if some of you use USB dacs or whatnot). The U3's 3.5mm audio jack is also an spdif jack, so once you attach a dac (something as great and cheap as the Fiio D03k), you are no longer dealing with the U3's imperfections, and using it solely for the software and Dolby Headphone.

My setup:

Gaming:

Alienware M17x R4 - USB - Xonar U3 - Spdif out - Fiio D03k - Analog in - Compass 2 - Headphones

^This setup is a daunting, but the Xonar and Fiio are small and will be hidden away behind the desk. I just use a USB hub which everything connects to, and only the USB cable from the hub goes to my laptop. This way I get Dolby Headphone from the Xonar U3, but I bypass the internal dac AND amp and use the Fiio D03K's dac/Compass 2's amp. I wouldn't need the Fiio D03k in this situation, but as I mentioned before, my Compass 2's dac won't play nicely with the U3 for some reason.

Gaming AND music sound stellar with this setup (though for music I go with my Compass 2 directly hooked up to the spdif out on my laptop, which is an easy button on the Compass 2 to switch from the gaming setup to the music one), though the U3 is limited up to 16bit/96khz. Not a problem as most music is 16 bit anyways.

For $40, the U3 is pretty damn ideal for PC gaming, as you won't need to needless waste money on a great soundcard when you already have good audiophile amp/dacs at your disposal. (Well, some of us).


----------



## Chubtoad

Ok so I've had the chance now to set up and test out the Annies/Asgard 2 combo with my Astro mixamp on the PS3.
   
  There is no hum noise when a game is loaded and I crank up the amps volume to maximum. There is also no interference/crosstalk/feedback noises either. There is however a very very slight hiss noise but I suspect that is from the Astro mixamp, and I don't obviously play games with the amps volume cranked to max.
   
   
  Perhaps the Asgard 2 just doesn't want to play nice with my PC? or with the X-Fi Titanium HD? does anybody else have this setup?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Mixamp will have some noise, especially the more recent Mixamp models.


----------



## Chubtoad

the only time I can hear the "hiss" type noise is if I crank my amp volume to max, but at any reasonable listening level I cant hear anything its basically silent.


----------



## genclaymore

I didn't have the issue at all when i was using a Recon3D  PCI-E thru optical into my external dac amp. Only time I remember having it with a Fiio E3 portabile amp that I was using with a X-Fi Xtreme music i think it was,but it was a very long time ago.


----------



## DavMalheur

Hey guys long time lurker first time poster, 
   
  I have a few questions - 
   
  Recently I have purchased Annies, which will primarily used with my computer (gaming first and foremost and then music/anime/movies) and maybe possibly for console use down the track.
  After reading through majority thread I have become a little confused.
   
  Currently from what I understand I need to purchase a sound card/ external equivalent to produce virtual surround sound and also amp. 
   
  I was planning to purchase o2/odac combination and a Asus Xonar Essence STX for Dolby Headphone. My main problem is how to connect these all together and whether I should consider another option to output the virtual surround sound to the headphones. 
   
  Thank you very much.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





davmalheur said:


> Hey guys long time lurker first time poster,
> 
> I have a few questions -
> 
> ...


 
   
  I don't see why you're even bothering with the ODAC if you're buying a sound card like the Xonar Essence STX.
   
  Just get the Objective2, if the STX's built-in amp isn't good enough for you or the K702 65th.


----------



## DavMalheur

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I don't see why you're even bothering with the ODAC if you're buying a sound card like the Xonar Essence STX.
> 
> Just get the Objective2, if the STX's built-in amp isn't good enough for you or the K702 65th.


 
   
  Cheers,
   
  I will guess I will buy the Xonar Essence STX first and see if I need a Objective2 later down the track. If I did purchase an Objective2 I am guessing I would use the S/PDIF output from the Xonar Essence STX and use a S/PDIF to 3.5 mm converter to connect to the Objective 2 amp which would transmit Dolby Headphone?  Would there be any problems STX>S/PDIF to 3.5mm>Objective2>Annies?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

That is the million dollar question.

Just letting you know, if you just want the soundcard for Dolby headphone, I'd save money and purchase the Xonar U3 (or whatever internal soundcard equivalent there is possibly Xonar DG), as it's only $40, and you ONLY need the software/Dolby Headphone to transmit to the spdif out to a real dac and amp. That means that the lackluster dac and amp in the U3 wouldn't be used.

I say this, because the STX's internals would be wasted, as all it'd be doing is sending a digital signal to your dac/amp. Assuming the STX keeps Dolby headphone through it's Spdif (not all soundcards do).

But if you're getting the STX, the internal amp is basically the same thing as the Fiio E9K, meaning it's plenty powerful, and upgrading from the STX's internal amp to the O2 won't be really worthwhile, especially for the Annies which aren't really affected by the STX's 10ohm output impedance.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





davmalheur said:


> I have a few questions -
> Recently I have purchased Annies, which will primarily used with my computer (gaming first and foremost and then music/anime/movies) and maybe possibly for console use down the track.
> After reading through majority thread I have become a little confused.
> Currently from what I understand I need to purchase a sound card/ external equivalent to produce virtual surround sound and also amp.
> I was planning to purchase o2/odac combination and a Asus Xonar Essence STX for Dolby Headphone. My main problem is how to connect these all together and whether I should consider another option to output the virtual surround sound to the headphones.


 
  If you already have an Essence STX installed in your PC, can't see any reason to get the O2/ODAC.
  Something like an Astro Mix-amp would be useful for connecting headphones to a gaming console.


----------



## deanorthk

With your setup, Mad lust envy, you could plug both a gaming pc rig, AND a PS3?
  I want to do that with my system, since my PS3 and my gaming pc are so near, an external sound card that could handle surround (like the astroogaming that I have), and go out to my burson HA160 so I can still use my HD650... wonder if that's possible.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

For PC, I use the Xonar U3. For PS3, I use the Mixamp. Unless your amp has multiple analog inputs, you probably would have tk get an RCA switcher or constantly unplug cables when using the PS3 or PC. I dont have that problem, as the X1 sounds fine off the Mixamp alone, and I leave the U3 permanently attached to my audiophile dac/amp.


----------



## deanorthk

My amp, the burson soloist, do have 3 input... One is used with the burson DA160 for music.
  that could mean... PC->U3->fiio D03K or U7-> analog to Soloist, and PS3-> astrogaming-> 3.3mm jac -> 2rca -> soloist...that sound crazy, but..workable to get surround sound for all the sources?


----------



## Dillweed

Hey, Nameless (and anybody else who has dealt with a Titanium HD), I know you've sort of _mentioned_ it before, but do you know if using the full 24-bit/96kHz sampling rate on the Titanium HD causes serious issues with CMSS-3D? I just tried switching to 96kHz recently and noticed the soundstage suddenly compressed, at least horizontally and possibly the rear depth. Switching back to the default 48kHz setting opened the soundstage up again. That kind of sucks if it really doesn't work with both the higher sampling rate and CMSS-3D, because 96kHz seems to help smooth out the sound of my DT880.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





dillweed said:


> Hey, Nameless (and anybody else who has dealt with a Titanium HD), I know you've sort of _mentioned_ it before, but do you know if using the full 24-bit/96kHz sampling rate on the Titanium HD causes serious issues with CMSS-3D? I just tried switching to 96kHz recently and noticed the soundstage suddenly compressed, at least horizontally and possibly the rear depth. Switching back to the default 48kHz setting opened the soundstage up again. That kind of sucks if it really doesn't work with both the higher sampling rate and CMSS-3D, because 96kHz seems to help smooth out the sound of my DT880.


 
   
  I've been running on 24/96 KHz recently, and notice no issues with my games because of that.
   
  I used to run 24/48 KHz in case of issues, but started experimenting again recently and found that the higher sampling rate doesn't seem to be a problem, at least for me.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





dillweed said:


> Hey, Nameless (and anybody else who has dealt with a Titanium HD), I know you've sort of _mentioned_ it before, but do you know if using the full 24-bit/96kHz sampling rate on the Titanium HD causes serious issues with CMSS-3D? I just tried switching to 96kHz recently and noticed the soundstage suddenly compressed, at least horizontally and possibly the rear depth. Switching back to the default 48kHz setting opened the sound stage up again. That kind of sucks if it really doesn't work with both the higher sampling rate and CMSS-3D, because 96kHz seems to help smooth out the sound of my DT880.


 
  Have you updated the Titanium HD's software?
  Maybe even try do a fresh install of the Titanium HD software?
   
  Dumb question.
  Is the on-board audio "Disabled" in the BIOS?


----------



## Dillweed

Yeah, I make sure to disable the onboard sound when I do any BIOS updates or CMOS resets. I haven't tried cleaning out and reinstalling the drivers, though, or maybe going back to an older revision. I just reinstalled Windows a few months ago and installed the newest driver from November, so maybe going back to a previous driver would help.
   
*Edit:* Okay, actually, I may be wrong. There doesn't seem to be a problem within the Creative tests, but the Windows speaker configuration speaker placement sounds different for whatever reason.
   
  Also, screwing around with all of this made me examine my setup more critically and discover that I need to get some new headphones that provide a lot better depth and imaging, and that sound closer to a "neutral" than the DT880's slightly bright sound. Anybody know of some possible options? Or should I go make a "recommendation" thread/ask in MLE's thread for that?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





dillweed said:


> Yeah, I make sure to disable the onboard sound when I do any BIOS updates or CMOS resets. I haven't tried cleaning out and reinstalling the drivers, though, or maybe going back to an older revision. I just reinstalled Windows a few months ago and installed the newest driver from November, so maybe going back to a previous driver would help.
> *Edit:* Okay, actually, I may be wrong. There doesn't seem to be a problem within the Creative tests, but the Windows speaker configuration speaker placement sounds different for whatever reason.
> Also, screwing around with all of this made me examine my setup more critically and discover that I need to get some new headphones that provide a lot better depth and imaging, and that sound closer to a "neutral" than the DT880's slightly bright sound. Anybody know of some possible options? Or should I go make a "recommendation" thread/ask in MLE's thread for that?


 
  Hopefully your plugging the DT880s into an external headphone amplifier and the external headphone amplifier into the Titanium HD's RCA jacks?


----------



## Dillweed

Yeah, [Titanium HD RCAs>Lovely Cube>DT880]. They've been amped that way since around the second month I had them. I've swapped out various op amps multiple times to try to change the sound, but I guess I've finally gotten a little tired of trying to correct them since I can't really get the positional sound depth I'd prefer out of them, and the mids tend to sound a little too pushed back or hollow to me.


----------



## Goride

I just recently got a Titanium HD.  I installed it and tested out the 3d positional effects, and they seem decent enough.
   
  However, I can now hear a series of beeps when I move my mouse.  I assume it is some sort of interference, but I cannot seem to figure out how to get rid of it.  
   
  Is this a known issue with Titanium HD cards?  Anyone know of some steps I could take to troubleshoot it?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





goride said:


> I just recently got a Titanium HD.  I installed it and tested out the 3d positional effects, and they seem decent enough.
> However, I can now hear a series of beeps when I move my mouse.  I assume it is some sort of interference, but I cannot seem to figure out how to get rid of it.
> Is this a known issue with Titanium HD cards?  Anyone know of some steps I could take to troubleshoot it?


 
  Dumb question time.
  You have in the BIOS, "disabled" the motherboard's built in audio.


----------



## Goride

Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> Dumb question time.
> You have in the BIOS, "disabled" the motherboard's built in audio.


 
   
   
  Yes I have the onboard disabled in bios.  I also have it disabled within windows as well.  Only the Titanium HD is enabled to handle any sound.
   
  Any other ideas?


----------



## duncan1

Is the  Titanium card pushed all the way home in its slot? if so you say you get bleeps when using the mouse  try changing the usb socket and if socket is external to the PC then change the connecting usb cable . I had a faulty external usb cable and when moved it bleeped. when connected to the mouse. I too have titanium hd x-fi card.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





goride said:


> I just recently got a Titanium HD.  I installed it and tested out the 3d positional effects, and they seem decent enough.
> 
> However, I can now hear a series of beeps when I move my mouse.  I assume it is some sort of interference, but I cannot seem to figure out how to get rid of it.


 
   
  Are you using an external amplifier, or the front panel headphone jack on the PC ?


----------



## Goride

I am outputting via RCA into an external amplifier.  I even swapped out the RCA cables (just incase), with no effect.
   
   
  I also tried switching my mouse to 4 different USB ports.  I can hear the mouse in all of them.  Two of the USB ports were on the front, the other two were on the back.


----------



## stv014

What amplifier is it exactly ? Do you get any noise if you use the Titanium HD to drive the headphones, and skip the amplifier ?


----------



## Goride

Asking me about the amp inspired me to try some things.
   
  First of all the "amp" is an Astro Mixamp.  Not exactly the ideal headphone amp, but it has worked well with my Sennheisser 595.
   
  I also have an Emotiva Mini-X A-100 (speaker amp) that powers some Arx Ab1 speakers.
   
   
  I used to have an optical cable connect my pc to the mixamp, and used the USB to power it and as an input for the mic.  I had absolutely no problems with this configuration.  However, when I got the Titanium HD and connected it using RCA, i started getting that mouse feedback beeps.  (I have not tried a coax optical cable from the Titanium HD to mixamp yet... but circumnavigating the DAC defeats part of the point of upgrading).
   
  RCA from the titanium HD to the emotiva to speakers yields NO mouse feedback no matter how high I turn it up.  None.
   
  RCA from the titanium HD to the Astro mixamp, then 3.5mm headphone output to rca into the emotiva to speakers DOES yield mouse feedback.
   
  Plugging my headphones directly into the titanium HD yields no mouse feedback.
   
  I also tried plugging the Astro Mixamp usb into different ports with the same results.
   
  It would seem the problem might be the mixamp, but it does not do this when I use an optical cable.  I even tried disabling the mic/usb input of the mixamp, and I still got the mouse feedback.
   
  Like I said, it only does it when I do Titanium HD to RCA to Astro Mixamp.  Does not do it optical cable to Astro Mixamp.


----------



## Chubtoad

I have yet to fix my problem with mouse feedback either. The hilarious thing is even when my headphones and amp are not even plugged into my pc I can hear the noise in them. I use the same desk/monitor for my ps3 and pc. All I can think of is to buy a different mouse and see if that stops it. Maybe the g400 mouse cord just sucks.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *Goride* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> RCA from the titanium HD to the Astro mixamp, then 3.5mm headphone output to rca into the emotiva to speakers DOES yield mouse feedback.


 
   
  The problem is caused by a ground loop between the Titanium HD and the USB port through the Astro Mixamp. Do you really need the Mixamp, or only use it as a headphone amplifier ?
  Edit: you could also isolate the Mixamp from the USB port of the PC. There are USB isolators available for $50 or less, and it is also possible to use an external power supply.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





goride said:


> RCA from the Titanium HD to the Astro mixamp, then 3.5mm headphone output to rca into the emotiva to speakers DOES yield mouse feedback.
> 
> Plugging my headphones directly into the titanium HD yields no mouse feedback.


 
  As the Titanium HD headphone jack and the Astro Mix-Amp headphone jack both are about roughly equal for powering headphones, it would seem to stop using the Mix-amp and plug the headphone straight into the Titanium HD.


----------



## Chubtoad

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=108&cp_id=10844&cs_id=1084402&p_id=6909&seq=1&format=2#description
   
  would something such as this eliminate any mouse noise? or would I need to look for an actual usb isolator specifically for the mouse?


----------



## Goride

Quote: 





stv014 said:


> The problem is caused by a ground loop between the Titanium HD and the USB port through the Astro Mixamp.  Do you really need the Mixamp, or only use it as a headphone amplifier ?
> Edit: you could also isolate the Mixamp from the USB port of the PC. There are USB isolators available for $50 or less, and it is also possible to use an external power supply.


 
   
  The ground loop makes sense.  I could avoid that by using the outlet to power it instead of the usb port.  However, I actually use the usb port as the input for my microphone.  
   
  As far as needing the Mixamp, I will not be needing it soon.  Now that I have the Titanium HD I can just use its DPS for 3d-positional sound in games, and not rely on the Mixamp's dolby headphone (my motherboard could output in 5.1, but is limited in some other features that the Titanium HD has, which is why I got it).
   
  Quote: 





purpleangel said:


> As the Titanium HD headphone jack and the Astro Mix-Amp headphone jack both are about roughly equal for powering headphones, it would seem to stop using the Mix-amp and plug the headphone straight into the Titanium HD.


 
   
  Yes, that works for my Sennheiser HD595.  However, I plan on getting a Hifi-man HE-400 or HE-500 (still deciding) soon.  That port will not cut it for that.  Plus, it is kind of a hassle to physically reach behind my computer and unplug the headphones to listen to my speakers.
   
  I was holding off buying a headphone amp, because I have been reading that a lot of people are having success using the Emotiva amp that I already have for my speakers with their Hifiman headphones.  But I am thinking that it might be a bit too powerful for efficient and low impedence headphones like the HD595.  I was kind of hoping I could use the Emotiva with my speakers and Hifiman, and the Mixamp with the HD595 (since I already have it and it would save me from having to plug and unplug all the time).  
   
  It still might actually.  When I got from the Titanium HD --> Emotiva --> Mixamp (via the Emotiva's RCA outs) the mouse feedback noise is significantly weaker.  I can still hear it, but it is not anywhere as noticeable as when I go Titanium HD --> Mixamp.
   
  But, tbh, I am not even using it for the Mixamp's capabilities anymore (dolby headphone).  My best option is probably to just sell it and buy a dedicated (and much better) amp like the Schiit Magi.  Use the Emotiva for speakers and Hifiman and the Schiit for the HD595.  And just use the Titanium HD's microphone port.


----------



## Makiah S

some one want to walk me through getting Electri Q VST Plugin to work with FooBar -.- I did it like twice and well I can't get it to work again...


----------



## Evshrug

mad lust envy said:


> I do. It's easy. Razer Surround to me has NO rear positional accuracy, at all. The soundstage is a half moon, with the lit part being in front of you. All rear positional cues are basically going through your head instead of behind you. CMSS-3D makes a much easier distinction between what's in front and what's behind, though I still don't think it touches Dolby Headphone or even THX Tru Studio which do an even better job of portraying rear positional cues. The good thing about CMSS-3D is that it's not as processed sounding as the latter two, so I'd choose it over stereo, if only because it makes some sort of attempt to differentiate between front and back. Razer surround is... well, it's free for a reason. Razer Surround is like Stereo 1.5. It does a good job portraying side to front cues, but does little to nothing for things behind you in the virtual space. In that vid, the positional cues on the Razer weren't even aligned with the actual placement.




I'm late to the party, but in light of recent talk about various headphone surround DSPs, I'm hearing what Mad hears here. With Razer Surround (in this vid), Rear cues seem to pan linearly between my ears, instead of sounding as if they come from behind. CmSS-3D sounded much better.


----------



## Evshrug

I just got a hint that Creative has been working on something for Mac users... Maybe an updated version of the Recon3D USB.


----------



## Sarith

Sorry I'm sure this was answered earlier:
  Is the Asus Xonar STX able to output Dolby headphone via Optical Out? I know other models can, I just wanna double check.
   
  Thanks for your time.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





sarith said:


> Sorry I'm sure this was answered earlier:
> Is the Asus Xonar STX able to output Dolby headphone via Optical Out? I know other models can, I just wanna double check.


 
  The Asus Xonar Essence STX can output, thru it's S/PDIF (optical & coaxial) output, Dolby Headphone 7.1 Surround Sound.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Umm, even if it did, why waste so much when all you're gonna use it for is for it's digital stage? That's wasted money and internals for something when you can just get the lower end models that do the same thing. Key thing here being that you're only using the digital stage, not the analog components, in which the STX would definitely be better. If you have your own dac/amp, the STX seems like overkill.

Just like I have my U3 output Dolby Headphone to my Compass 2 dac/amp. If I used the U3's internal dac/amp, then yes, it'd be not so great. But I'm not.


----------



## Sarith

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Umm, even if it did, why waste so much when all you're gonna use it for is for it's digital stage? That's wasted money and internals for something when you can just get the lower end models that do the same thing. Key thing here being that you're only using the digital stage, not the analog components, in which the STX would definitely be better. If you have your own dac/amp, the STX seems like overkill.
> 
> Just like I have my U3 output Dolby Headphone to my Compass 2 dac/amp. If I used the U3's internal dac/amp, then yes, it'd be not so great. But I'm not.


 
  Well funny you ask. I'm thinking of downsizing from a Beyer T1 and Denon AH-D7000 to either an Annie or the X1. I'm leaning towards the Annie. I am also using a mixamp so I would need an amp for that. I was brain storming if you will, if bypassing the STX to an external DAC and AMP would be beneficial. 
   
  I would sell the STX and go with something like the U3 instead but the amount I would get for it, it might just be more worth while to hang on to it. Plus I am currently running some speakers from its RCA output so I would need to come up with something to replace that.
   
  On a side note I wanna say thanks for your thread. It led me to buying the Denon's. While I do enjoy them I, like yourself cannot stand the pleather pads. Gotta love hot summer days.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

It's hot in Canada? :eek:

Ah, ok, I didn't know you already had the STX. Yeah, no sense in selling it if you're not gonna get much for it. I don't know why you'd wanna attach a dac to it. I hear it has a pretty good dac and amp already. Though I suppose if you can't pass dolby headphone through an analog line out, a dac would make sense, instead of attaching an amp to it's headphone jack to not get caught by the internal amp's high output impedance...


----------



## Sarith

I live in a weird part of Canada. Weather constantly changes, can go from warm to snow to warm again in the span of an hour. We get a weather phenomenon that as far as I know doesn't occur any where else in the world (called a Chinook Wind). It has snowed in every month of the year and temperatures can go from -40 to +40 Celsius (-31 to 104 in Fahrenheit i guess)


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

That is...scary.


----------



## Seamless Sounds

Just listened to some virtual "binaural" surround sound in games on youtube. Wasn't impressed at all. Then again, I don't know any games that focuses on actual sound perception and physics.
   
  1. The sound doesn't seem to interact with the environment at all. They're mostly area triggers. There ought to be an API that makes it easier for the developers to implement this.
  2. The panning is unnatural. It pans left and right too hard as if one of my ear furthest away from the source goes deaf.
   
  More research needs to be poured into psycho-acoustics and acoustical physics in games for headphones!


----------



## Jd007

I notice that in the guide for getting DSP features out of sound cards' digital out, the guide said to set Listen to "What U Hear" device in Windows recording device settings. However I noticed that in the new Creative cards' control center, you can check a box that says "Play stereo mix through S/PDIF", which is the Creative's official way to get DSP features through digital out. I was wondering if anybody knows the difference between the two? Right now I have both settings on just in case.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





jd007 said:


> I notice that in the guide for getting DSP features out of sound cards' digital out, the guide said to set Listen to "What U Hear" device in Windows recording device settings. However I noticed that in the new Creative cards' control center, you can check a box that says "Play stereo mix through S/PDIF", which is the Creative's official way to get DSP features through digital out. I was wondering if anybody knows the difference between the two? Right now I have both settings on just in case.


 
   
  I think you're mixing up the S/PDIF output instructions with the USB output instructions. Guess I better re-write the guide one of these days.
   
  "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" is what you need for S/PDIF; all that kludgery with "What U Hear" and using Windows to listen in on it through another audio device is only needed for USB devices, and that tends to be a bit of a crapshoot quality-wise.


----------



## SniperCzar

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> I think you're mixing up the S/PDIF output instructions with the USB output instructions. Guess I better re-write the guide one of these days.
> 
> "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" is what you need for S/PDIF; all that kludgery with "What U Hear" and using Windows to listen in on it through another audio device is only needed for USB devices, and that tends to be a bit of a crapshoot quality-wise.


 

 ^This.

 Most amps have some sort of digital in, I only ever kludged together a method for USB out when I was stuck without a proper optical-to-mini cable or when I was trying to output to two audio devices simultaneously (can't remember which honestly). Still a useful method every so often but yeah... just use an optical cable.


----------



## Jd007

Quote: 





> Originally Posted by *NamelessPFG* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" is what you need for S/PDIF; all that kludgery with "What U Hear" and using Windows to listen in on it through another audio device is only needed for USB devices, and that tends to be a bit of a crapshoot quality-wise.


 
  Thanks nameless. I removed the listen on what u hear.
   
  in foobar i set the output to be my spdif directly through wasapi, but sometimes when i quit foobar and starts playing something through system sounds (like a youtube vid), the volume level would change after some seconds of playing. is there a cause for it?


----------



## genclaymore

Also What u hear  tend to stop working when you sending it to a usb device, causing you to mess around with it. Til it starts working again.


----------



## fragurass

Quote: 





chubtoad said:


> OK I've been having a strange problem with my setup, I don't know exactly how to describe it but when I am moving my mouse around on the desktop or just surfing the net its constantly making some kind of whirly/whistly static/interfence type of noise (sorry don't really know how to describe it).
> 
> However I just tested and it only happens when I am running my headphones through my amplifier, I don't hear it when I'm connected directly to my sound card. What would be causing the amp to make this noise?
> 
> ...


 
   
  Quote: 





chubtoad said:


> plugging it into the headphone jack using my monoprice 3.5mm to rca cables i still get the same noise.
> 
> I switched the amp to another power strip and the noise has been dramatically reduced but its still audible, both with RCA to RCA, and 3.5mm to RCA. (At the same volume settings as before)
> 
> ...


 
  Dude I just got the Asgard 2 yesterday, with monoprice 3.5mm to rca cables and I have the X-Fi Titanium fatal1ty + HD600s.
   
  I am having the exact same problem, I have the TX750 powersupply... my  mouse (Zowie EC1 eVo) is plugged into the rear of the case (HAF-X)
   
  After seeing your setup, I would think we have other problems besides the asgard 2 being defective. 
   
  Are you running it on High Gain mode?


----------



## Kost

Quote: 





> *MadLustEnvy:* I know people think the U3 is a bad device, but what they're not realizing, is that you can bypass both the amp AND dac and keep Dolby headphone. You just need a spdif dac (not sure if some of you use USB dacs or whatnot). The U3's 3.5mm audio jack is also an spdif jack, so once you attach a dac (something as great and cheap as the Fiio D03k), you are no longer dealing with the U3's imperfections, and using it solely for the software and Dolby Headphone.
> 
> My setup:
> 
> ...


 
   
  I'm kind of confused by this. I thought that spdif didn't support more than 2 channels of PCM because of bandwidth and so it has to be encoded in dolby/dts, but that the receiving device has to be able to decode dolby/DTS, so unless its configured to do that a normal external plug and play dac wouldn't work.
   
  I'm new to PC gaming (and audio enhanced gaming in general). I was thinking about buying one of these soundcards and outputting via USB to my dac, or perhaps RCA from the soundcard directly to my amp.
   
  Also, how can the U3 soundcard process the audio to give dolby headphone but then bypass the DAC? I thought the DAC did the dsp/dolby/surroundsound conversion.
   
  My external dac has BNC,  toslink, RCA, AES/EBU, XLR and USB inputs. Honestly I'm not even sure if BNC is a digital or analog connection. I found BNC to RCA adapters so I guess its probably analog.
   
  Sorry for the confusion but I'm a bit lost.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

What's there to be confused about?

The U3's audio out is a combination jack. It's an SPDIF out and an analog out.

The software has a setting for the out. It can do analog out. It can do SPDIF out in it's rawest form (untouched signal, like a pure Dolby Digital signal, or a 2 channel PCM signal), and it can also do SPDIF out with software settings kept intact (Dolby headphone, EQ, etc, still in effect).

How can it add Dolby headphone but bypass the DAC? There is software that does Dolby headphone, and keeps it digital, until you pass that signal through a DAC. So the logical assumption is that Dolby Digital gets converted to the Dolby headphone digitally. With other devices like the Mixamp, there was no digital out option (other than a pure passthorugh), so it HAD to go into the DAC at some point, but doesn't necessarily mean that Dolby headphone itself is directly tied to the DAC, as is evident with the Xonar U3.

That is, unless the U3 is doing something wonky like converting Dolby Digital to Dolby headphone through the DAC, and the analog signal is then converted back to digital so it can then be sent through the SPDIF out... which is highly doubtful.

All i know is that it WORKS, lol. So you get a digital Dolby headphone signal and you can use your own DAC (with spdif) that will convert it to analog for your amp.

I've sold my Compass 2 and have downgraded to a Fiio E12. So I'll be sending my U3's digital signal to my Fiio D03K and then to my E12.


----------



## NamelessPFG

To sum up what MLE's saying:
   
  The Xonar U3's drivers are taking the source audio, probably eight PCM channels for a 7.1 setup, mixing them with Dolby Headphone, and then piping out the DH-mixed two-channel signal in pure PCM over S/PDIF to let the external DAC do the dirty work.
   
  That's what I mean when I say that sound cards can still be viable as DSPs for gaming, even if you're bypassing the DAC.


----------



## Kost

Quote: 





> All i know is that it WORKS, lol. So you get a digital Dolby headphone signal and you can use your own DAC (with spdif) that will convert it to analog for your amp.


 
   
   
  Quote: 





> To sum up what MLE's saying:
> 
> The Xonar U3's drivers are taking the source audio, probably eight PCM channels for a 7.1 setup, mixing them with Dolby Headphone, and then piping out the DH-mixed two-channel signal in pure PCM over S/PDIF to let the external DAC do the dirty work.
> 
> That's what I mean when I say that sound cards can still be viable as DSPs for gaming, even if you're bypassing the DAC.


 
   
  Thanks a lot! That clarifies some things. So basically I just need a soundcard that has all the dsp and surround sound technologies, even if it's the lowest grade card since I'm just gonna bypass the internal amp/dac anyway. I suppose I don't even need all of that either though, since all the data would be converted to dolby or DTS through the headphones anyway, making the rest of that stuff useless unless I was gonna attempt to get sound directly from the card or set up speakers.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

No, you need a soundcard that ALLOWS you bypass it. By chance these xonars do that. You can't just buy any soundcard and expect it to do that. Prior tk me pointing it out, I don't remember seeing anyone mentioning any soundcard doing that.


----------



## pietcux

The Xonar U1 also can do it.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Someone should start a database for these things. Devices that do virtual surround through spdif, devices that do it through RCA, and those that can only do it through the headphone out.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





mad lust envy said:


> Someone should start a database for these things. Devices that do virtual surround through spdif, devices that do it through RCA, and those that can only do it through the headphone out.


 
   
  I'd do it myself if people were willing to lend me sound cards to test out.
   
  I can safely say that X-Fi cards can pass CMSS-3D Headphone through any desired output.
   
  It's the C-Media chipset cards (Asus, HT Omega, most of Auzentech's lineup) that leaves me with uncertainty, along with Creative's Sound Core3D-based offerings. (The Recon3D USB only has the one headphone jack for output, so I can't test S/PDIF-out or check whether the mix changes between headphone and speaker surround on a Z-series card depending on whether or not the headphone-out or RCA line-out is used.)


----------



## Kost

Quote: 





> No, you need a soundcard that ALLOWS you bypass it. By chance these xonars do that. You can't just buy any soundcard and expect it to do that. Prior tk me pointing it out, I don't remember seeing anyone mentioning any soundcard doing that.
> 
> I can safely say that X-Fi cards can pass CMSS-3D Headphone through any desired output.


 
  Creative said on their website that their sound blaster Z+ cards all support ASIO.  I'm not sure exactly if that would bypass the card's DSP as well as the AMP/DAC


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





kost said:


> Creative said on their website that their sound blaster Z+ cards all support ASIO.  I'm not sure exactly if that would bypass the card's DSP as well as the AMP/DAC


 
   
  ASIO doesn't apply to gaming audio at all. Not unless you're using Rapture3D Advanced edition with OpenAL games (since Rapture3D doesn't work with anything else), and since that costs around 500 GBP last time I checked, you're probably not.
   
  What we're looking into here is whether or not a sound card will output headphone-mixed audio over S/PDIF. (Possibly over HDMI in the cases of the Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD and the Xonar HDAV.)


----------



## Fegefeuer

I need something better than FRAPS for recording game audio. What's out there? What's the best input format for youtube for minimal audio loss? Windows Movie Maker recodes to 192kbs audio and Youtube seems to do additional conversion. 
   
  Another interesting thing is when I use an, EQ FRAPS doesn't care while recording. What's going on?
   
  I wanted to EQ SBX to something similar to CMSS-3D levels.


----------



## Kost

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> What we're looking into here is whether or not a sound card will output headphone-mixed audio over S/PDIF. (Possibly over HDMI in the cases of the Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD and the Xonar HDAV.)


 
   
  Thanks clearing up my misunderstandings. I'm kind of curious about it now too. (Sorry for all the questions) Guess ill have to keep an eye on this thread.


----------



## Asukara

Hi, 
  I would like to know how to set my Xonar U3 properly  with a HE-400 for game like CS:GO.


----------



## pietcux

Use the gaming preset, set to 8 channels and thats it.


----------



## deanorthk

I've been testing the UD7 with HD650, mostly on Tomb Raider, and WAHOU... the imersion is fantastic, surround sound really surprising.


----------



## Black Leg

Hi all,
  I would like to know how to get better surround sound with Beyerdynamic dt 990 pro, currently I am using Razer Surround to output 7.1.
  I am also planning to get sound card/ amp which should be better. Does a sound card/ AMP will increase overall sound quality considerably.
  And what will be best a sound card for 990.


----------



## NAWilson9

Hello,
  I'm looking into gaming audio and have a few questions. My motherboard, the Gigabyte ga-z87x-ud4h, has a Realtek ALC892 on it. How do I find out what surround technologies it supports? The Realtek spec sheet says it supports Direct Sound 3d and I3DL2 and has "Optional Dolby PCEE program, SRS TruSurround HD, SRS Premium Sound, Fortemedia SAM, Creative Host Audio, Synopsys Sonic Focus, DTS Surround Sensation | UltraPC, and DTS Connect licenses". The Gigabyte website doesn't say what it supports. The reason I ask is because I was looking for a cheap card with optical out to go to a DAC but I figured I would see what my mobo has to offer. I was looking at the Xonar DGX but are there any better options for this purpose?
   
  EDIT: Wouldn't I be able to install alternate drivers for my mobo that would enable the optional features?


----------



## Rahmiel

I'm in need of some help.
   
  I have an Asus P8Z68 V LX motherboard with the onboard audio and video disabled
  Soundblaster X Fi Titanium Fatal1ty card
  nvidia 660 gpu
   
  Headphones:
  Sennheiser PC360
  audio technica ath ad700x
   
  I decided to try out the ad700x headphones instead of my pc360 headset.  I turn down the sound in windows from 66% to 10-15% because the ad700x doesn't seem to require much power to drive what I feel is around the same volume level.  But there is a problem.  My pc360 works fine, no issues.  However, once I connect my ad700x there's this really frustrating and annoying.. maddening buzzing or just noise in the right headphone alone.  I've taken the headphone and tried it on a laptop, and there are no issues, the sound is fine.  However when I bring it back to my pc, the right ear has that noise/buzzing.
   
  When I launch a game, the buzzing/noise gets much much louder, and it really hurts.  I cannot use the ad700x at all (even if I weren't launching games).  So I know it's not the headphone at fault.
   
  My question is.. do I need a new sound card, or are there some settings I can tweak to get the buzzing down?  It seems like (but I could be way off here) that there's some interference coming from the video card.  I only have 1 PCIe slot which is above and very close to the required PCIe for my video card.  If it is my card, is there a way to know (beforehand) if there will be interference in the sound?  If that's even the problem...
   
  Anyone have any insight or suggestions?  Much appreciated, thanks.


----------



## pietcux

As your Sennheiser works fine, the soundcard should be ok. Maybe the cable of the AD700x is the problem. It could be the pug not resting correctly inside the souncard's 3.5 inch output port. Try some other headphones if you have, it could be even cheap iems just to find out what is wrong.


----------



## xero404

Posted in MLE's thread and wondering if i could get some ideas....

 Finally got my Asgard 2 in and it sounds pretty amazing with the modded 555's. can't wait to try the X1. Then when the time comes to upgrade again either get an HE-400 or the Mad Dogs .

Though i noticed if go past the 12 o'clock position i'm starting to hear a hiss and faint beeping from the x-fi no matter if the PC volume is at 0%, 70% or 100%..... When i turn off my computer theres isn't any hiss or beeps.gonna try to find some shielded RCA cables from Blue Jeans Cable.

 From the gist of this thread (i may be totally wrong) the x-fi should be able to pass the CMSS 3D settings to a different DAC? Should i get a modi to match with my Asgard so i can have an external DAC to combat the internal EMI interference from my computer? 
   
I'm worried i'll be getting even more interference since i have a second  gtx 670 to SLI and the sound card will be right next to the videocard.

 Worst case i'll pick up a xonar essence stx since it has more EMI shielding.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





xero404 said:


> Posted in MLE's thread and wondering if i could get some ideas....
> Finally got my Asgard 2 in and it sounds pretty amazing with the modded 555's. can't wait to try the X1. Then when the time comes to upgrade again either get an HE-400 or the Mad Dogs .
> Though i noticed if go past the 12 o'clock position i'm starting to hear a hiss and faint beeping from the x-fi no matter if the PC volume is at 0%, 70% or 100%..... When i turn off my computer theres isn't any hiss or beeps.gonna try to find some shielded RCA cables from Blue Jeans Cable.
> From the gist of this thread (i may be totally wrong) the x-fi should be able to pass the CMSS 3D settings to a different DAC? Should i get a modi to match with my Asgard so i can have an external DAC to combat the internal EMI interference from my computer?
> ...


 
  Which X-Fi card do you have?
   
  You would need an external DAC with a S/PDIF optical output to be able to use use the X-Fi CMSS-3D headphone surround sound.
  A external USB DAC would bypass a sound card.


----------



## genclaymore

You could use the method where you set the sound card "What u hear" or Stereo mix to output Thur the USB of the external dac amp. Which I have done a couple of times in the past. But some times "What U hear" or stereo mix stops working at random. Tho if the external dac amp has optical you can use that from the sound card optical outputs. That way you get the features of the sound card out of the external dac amp.


----------



## xero404

i have an xfi-titianium HD and the spdif\digital out is going to my z5500s (probably going to sell and get some powered bookshelfs soon). I'll have to start researching on some DACs with spdif inputs then.


----------



## Kazon

Just picked up
  Phillips Fidelio X1
  DSS Earforce $20 on ebay.
   
  Love the headphones but can't get Dolby Digital live to output the optical link to the DSS earforce. So my DSS earforce is just stuck in prologic mode. Never gets to use dolby headphone from any game or movie sources.
   
  I am using Integrated Realtek ALC 892 soundcard with an ITX motherboard. So no room to add a new soundcard.
   
  What are my best options here to get really good positional audio effects for headphones?
   
  I have attempted a realtek driver mod from Gamespirit. Which adds a ton of cool software enhances to play with. SRS, Sonic focus, DTS, Dolby A2, and Dolby home theater v4. Hiowever even with this driver i still cannot use Dolby headphone on my DSS earforce.
   
  I read someone emailed Dolby and they said that Dolby home theater v4 is basically dolby headphone with more options. So i am wondering if i should just plug my headphones in directly to the soundcard and just try to use that instead. 
   
  I have been looking at the USB soundcard likes the Asus Xonar U7. Maybe this would be the best option for me?
   
  I appreciate any advice or opinions on the matter.
  Thanks.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Buy the Xonar U3. It can send either. Dolby Digital or Dooby Headphone feed through the optical out, and send it to the DSS or other dac/amps. Its hella cheap and you're only using it digitally, so no worries about it's lackluster amp and dac.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Why are you even bothering with the Ear Force DSS on a PC? That's more of a console gaming device, and the only reason I see to try using such things on a PC is if you want to compare Dolby Headphone with a non-DH virtual surround mix from your sound card (usually Creative-based).
   
  As Mad Lust Envy suggests, there's the Xonar U3, which can do Dolby Headphone mixes by itself, or send them along over S/PDIF to a better DAC/amp. There's also the fancier Xonar U7 to consider. Can't say I've had hands-on experience with either, though...anyone willing to help with that?


----------



## pietcux

You have 3 options:


 U3 do not have it, digital out DAC AMP X1
 U1 X1 have it, works fine with easy to drive headphones
 U7 X1 have it, works even better with something like the AKG K701/702
U3 will get you a supply chain of several devices, U1/U7 can be used as the complete cain. Not so many cables on your desk.

All three options will get you proper Dolby Headphone to your cans.

Hope this helps


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

If you already have a legit dac and amp, the U3 will be the more logical choice. It's cheaper and more discrete.

If you just want one setup and have no real headphone amp/dac, then I can see the U7 being the better choice.


----------



## pox67

Just want to say thanks to all here for the great thread!
   
  It helped me purchase a Titanium X-Fi Pro/Champion for speakers and an Audioengine D1 connected to the X-Fi with optical for headphones.
   
  With CMSS 3D and 7.1 on the X-Fi going to the Audioengine D1 via optical I am hearing ambient noises in games I never even knew were there. Even with old Steel Series Siberia headphones it sounds great and even better with Sennheiser HD25-1 ii. Next I am looking at some at some open full size headphones to finish it all off.


----------



## Kazon

Thanks I think i will order the U7.
  Its pricey $116 but for being all one and better than the integrated sound cards i can take with me if i have to upgrade my motherboard again. My realtek is only 95 SNR. which is a lot worse than the 114SNR on the U7.


----------



## FlukeNL

So... I've read Mad Lust Envy's guide, I've read this guide... but I still feel there's something missing. Part of it is due to my budget (being way lower than what you guys seem to spend on sound), but mostly it's about the combination of soundcard/headphones. There seems to be a void there that I can't fill in, being a total layman when it comes to sound.
   
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/677126/d-like-advice-on-headphone-soundcard-combination-mostly-for-arma-3-or-other-fps-games-and-flightsimulation#post_9714462
   
  Here I've had some advice on headphones (Thanks PurpleAngel!), but not so much on a soundcard/headphone combo.
   
  What I'm curious about is this: with a budget of say €75-€100 (max!), should I spend part of it on a soundcard and the rest on headphones, or should I stick with my onboard sound and spend it on headphones? I would have to install something like a modmic if I stay away from gaming headphones, but that's ok. On the other hand, Mad Lust gives the Skullcandy Slyr quite decent ratings.
   
  So all in all: I'm still a bit lost here. Help would be appreciated .
   
  You can find more info on my use and system in the aforementioned link.
   
  Regards,
   
  Fluke


----------



## NamelessPFG

I don't really believe in pairing headphones to sound cards in that sense.
   
  Maybe if you're expecting to rely on a sound card's built-in amp, I can see looking at it that way, but I figure that demanding headphones should have an external dedicated amp anyway. (Especially when my headphones of choice CANNOT be powered directly by any sound card in existence...)
   
  I'd suggest getting an affordable sound card (something Xonar DG(X) or X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) level, somewhere around the equivalent of US$30-45 and not too expensive, but enough to provide headphone virtual surround) and putting the rest toward some decent headphones.


----------



## FlukeNL

I understand... a nice sportscar should come with a good engine as well.
   
  You get what you pay for, and my budget won't allow me an external amp, a soundcard and good headphones. Looking at the models most people here seem to use, my new headphones probably won't even fall in the "demanding" category. That's why I was looking at using my onboard card at first. It has THX TruStudio that is supposed to deliver positional audio.
   
  But, I'll look at the Xonar and X-Fi, thanks for the advice! And tonight I can borrow a more than decent AKG so I can try it out with my onboard sound as a start.
   
  One thing I encountered though, is this: http://www.razerzone.com/surround
   
  It's software that emulates positional audio. Does this change your advice, or is it more or less a gimmick when put up against a Xonar or X-Fi?


----------



## NamelessPFG

I suggest you try it yourself and find out if it's good enough for you.
   
  If you find it adequate, then put the entire budget toward headphones and save up for a good sound card later.


----------



## roman797

Posted this in the intro thread:

I have purchased the Q701's and need a good way to drive them properly for gaming.

I play mainly newer games and mostly FPS's like Battlefield 3 and the upcoming BF4.

I currently am trying out the Soundblaster Z card which has a built in amp. It sounds pretty good with SBX Surround when playing BF3. 

My question is, is there a better setup for the Q701's for positional accuracy. 

I have read through several threads and have gotten confused as to what the best method would be. 

1) Stick with the Soundblaster Z
2) Upgrade to the Soudblaster ZXR
3) Switch to the X-Fi Titanium HD
With this option would the built in amp be good enough, or would I benefit by spending up to $200 on an external amp.
4) Xonar U7 with built in amp. The reason I would consider this is because I plan on running my GTX 780 in SLI in the near future, and I am not sure if a soundcard would have issues with fitment or heat amoungst both graphics cards. I have an Asus Maximus VI Hero MB.

Also, I have been reading that external amps are better quality and work better with good headphones. And that certain amps work better than others with a particular headphone. I believe I read that the Q701's are picky with certain amps. I wonder which setup would be ideal.


----------



## Fegefeuer

If you're getting the Titanium HD you will need an external amp. Only get the Titanium HD if you want absolute full control and compatibility over legacy gaming, other than that a ZxR is better both in signal quality and the amp department.


----------



## roman797

Would matching up the Sound blaster Z I already have with an amp like the Matrix M-Stage (recommended in the Q701 thread) be better, or getting the ZxR by itself? Which would have the best all around sound quality, with fps gaming being the main priority.


----------



## genclaymore

Since you already have a Sound blaster Z, Better off getting the external amp and use it with the z, instead of going thru the return and getting hit with a restocking fee if there is one just to get the ZxR.


----------



## Fegefeuer

If you don't wanna go through the hassle of selling the Z and getting the ZxR just get the M-Stage - you'll have more cables though, more connections, more clutter. In both cases you will be very fine. Remember that audio is a chain and the ZxR has a better DAC. Won't matter much for games though.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Quote: 





roman797 said:


> Would matching up the Sound blaster Z I already have with an amp like the Matrix M-Stage (recommended in the Q701 thread) be better, or getting the ZxR by itself? Which would have the best all around sound quality, with fps gaming being the main priority.


 
  The Z, Zx & ZxR use the same audio processor, but the ZxR comes with a better DAC, PCM1794.
  The Z's CS4398 DAC chip should be good enough, better to spend the price difference (Z vs ZxR) on an external headphone amplifier for use with your Z card.
  The Schiit Magni external headphone amplifier, $99, is at least equal (if not better?) then the ZxR built in amplifier (TI 6120).


----------



## roman797

So if I get an external amp like the Schiit Magni or M-Stage, how would I connect to the Z? From what I understand I would need to use the headphone out port to preserve virtual surround. But if I do this here is my concern, wouldn't by-amping be bad since the headphone out port is already amplified? Would I use SPDIF out instead, and if so would I get virtual surround?

Also it would not be a hassle to switch to the ZxR (no restocking fee) if that were the best option.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Even if you were to add the m stage to your z it still won't have the same clarity/sound quality that the zxr's DAC can offer. That's going to be the best sound quality. What is your reason for adding an amp to your z, what headphones are you using? Do you need that much more power or were u after just better sound quality. Because you will still be limited to the z's DAC.


If restocking fees aren't an issue then just go zxr. Less equipment, easier to manage.


----------



## stv014

Unless the DAC on the Z is particularly badly implemented, it should not really "limit" the sound quality. The Xonar D1, which uses the same CS4398 DAC, performs very well according to my tests, and I would not use the more expensive Essence STX over it for the DAC alone. Then again, maybe the SBZ has a worse implementation, but I do not have that card, so I cannot test it.
   
  On the other hand, built-in headphone amplifiers on sound cards are often mediocre, and it is not just a power issue (although for the Q701 to be used by *roman797* it might be). So, adding an external amplifier to the SBZ may make sense. The Matrix M-Stage seems to have a grounded AC connector, though, so I would personally avoid it in a sound card based setup, in which ground loops are a frequent problem. The O2 (or perhaps the Magni) would be a safer choice.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Not that its badly implemented because its not. What I mean is adding an amp won't magickly give it a better snr . So the DAC is always the limiting factor. If he needs more power for headphones then yes it will improve his headphones sound. I'm speaking strictly of the snr.

Going from the z to zxr netted pretty big sq gains for me. Remember the z's Headphone port is bottlenecked already by the maxxim amp after the DAC. Roughly 109 db snr. Not the 116 for line outs. The Headamp in the z is definitely mediocre/ok. But not bad at all. Was able to power DT 770 250 ohms with no issue.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> Not that its badly implemented because its not. What I mean is adding an amp won't magickly give it a better snr . So the DAC is always the limiting factor. If he needs more power for headphones then yes it will improve his headphones sound. I'm speaking strictly of the snr.
> 
> Going from the z to zxr netted pretty big sq gains for me. Remember the z's Headphone port is bottlenecked already by the maxxim amp after the DAC. Roughly 109 db snr. Not the 116 for line outs. The Headamp in the z is definitely mediocre/ok. But not bad at all. Was able to power DT 770 250 ohms with no issue.


 
   
  I am not sure you know what 116 dB SNR (assuming it is not just a marketing figure not actually achieved in reality) really means. For that to produce audible hiss, you would need more than about 125 dB peak SPL (which is very loud, and would be too much for most people) even in a fairly quiet listening environment; even then, it would only be audible while no music is playing. Additionally, 16-bit CD quality music (which is something like 99% of the music currently sold) has only about 96 dB A-weighted dynamic range with typical simple dithering; adding a -116 dB noise floor to that would only make the overall noise level worse by a few hundredths of a dB, which is insignificant.
   
  In other words, the SNR of any decent DAC is usually not much of an issue in practice; that is, assuming that the DAC is running at or not much lower than 100% digital volume, and the volume is mostly controlled downstream of the DAC (this is not the case with the amplified headphone outputs of sound cards like the Xonar Essence STX). At the headphone output, listening at a realistic level, the SNR of the amplifier can easily be much worse than 116 dB.
   
  To get an idea what various levels of noise sound like, try this link, where you can compare a 24-bit sample to various quantized versions from 16-bit to 8-bit. The 16-bit sample has a dynamic range of about 97.3 dB (A-weighted), and losing one bit of resolution makes it worse by 6.02 dB. There is another test to try here, where short samples of various music have been recorded from a number of devices, including the Xonar D1 (~110 dB SNR at 44100 Hz sample rate), and even Realtek onboard codecs.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Lol my point was the headphone port isn't even 116 db. Every z owner pretty much says the line outs sound much better in terms of sq. So imagine compared to the zxr's headphone out. Huge difference in sq. I notice it and other do too. 

At the end of the day I was tying to justify roman797's dilemma by saying upgrading to the zxr isn't diminished returns .


----------



## roman797

So from what I read on the Soundblaster Z/Zx/ZxR thread is that the ZxR is indeed a good improvement in sound clarity for headphone use.  
   
  This would simplify things for me, and as long as the ZxR has a good amp that pairs relatively well with the Q701's, than I should be good.  If I get the itch to upgrade the amp in the future, that will always be an option.
   
  My main concern I have is that I want the best sound quality for my new headphones.  I know the ZxR will indeed have better sound quality than the Z and a better amp, but would the amp be a good match with the Q701's, which seem to be picky in this regard.
   
  I have contemplated sticking with the Z and getting a better amp because I figured that would give me better sound quality in the long run.  I could be wrong about this.  From what I have been reading on the Q701 thread, the Magni and O2 sound harsh with these HP's.  For other HP's they are excellent, but not the Q701's.  Many have recommended the M-Stage, stating that it pairs very well with the Q701's sound signature.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well people over in the q701 thread have said it pairs really well with the stx which uses the same headphone amp as the zxr. So it seems ull be good.


----------



## NinjaSushi2

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> Well people over in the q701 thread have said it pairs really well with the stx which uses the same headphone amp as the zxr. So it seems ull be good.


 
  I will be able to tell you guys in the coming weeks. I have the Q701, Titanium HD, and am about to trade my ATH Pro700 MKII to a buddy for his Xonar STX. This way I can compare the two soundcards and tell you which one's are truly better.


----------



## peskybrat

Hey everyone, new guy here. I'm looking for a recommendation for a pair of headphones/amp that would be good for gaming/movies, but that I could also use for my music needs. As a high school student I don't really have a load of money to buy multiple pairs of headphones for different uses. My music tastes vary greatly - I like hip hop, jazz, classical, ambient, and a lot of weird experimental stuff that can't really be put into a category. My budget is about $600, but I can stretch a little bit. My motherboard is the ASRock Z77 Extreme6 which has Realtek ALC898 Audio Codec, here's a link to some info - http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PFid=28&Level=5&Conn=4&ProdID=284. My other question is do you think a sound card would be necessary or would I be able to get by without one? If you need any other information just ask, and if I'm asking for too much just let me know. Also, sorry if this is not the place to ask for a recommendation, I thought posting this here would be good since it's a gaming headphone thread. Thanks for the help, and sorry for my lack of knowledge. I'll keep researching in the meantime.


----------



## roman797

stv014 said:


> Unless the DAC on the Z is particularly badly implemented, it should not really "limit" the sound quality. The Xonar D1, which uses the same CS4398 DAC, performs very well according to my tests, and I would not use the more expensive Essence STX over it for the DAC alone. Then again, maybe the SBZ has a worse implementation, but I do not have that card, so I cannot test it.
> 
> On the other hand, built-in headphone amplifiers on sound cards are often mediocre, and it is not just a power issue (although for the Q701 to be used by *roman797* it might be). So, adding an external amplifier to the SBZ may make sense. The Matrix M-Stage seems to have a grounded AC connector, though, so I would personally avoid it in a sound card based setup, in which ground loops are a frequent problem. The O2 (or perhaps the Magni) would be a safer choice.




Quick question, does the non-usb M-Stage have a grounded ac connector? If not then I might be able to use that with a soundcard.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I recommend a dedicated soundcard for signal quality, amping and especially for gaming features like HRTF.
   
  Either: http://www.razordogaudio.com/ - look for the coupons at the bottom of the page, apply to them to a AKG K712 Pro or AKG K702 anniversary and get a Soundblaster ZxR.
   
  or look for a Philips Fidelio X1 + Soundblaster ZxR. I recommend the former headphones due to exchangable pads. The situation is not really clear for the Philips.


----------



## ilGaspa

mad lust envy said:


> If you unplug and plug the headphones back in, does it default back to two channel, or will the sound settings stick with 5.1 surround?
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


 
   
  Sorry for recovering this old post: I'm unable to find the complete changelog (only found it on waybackmachine) but I noticed that an April update of Recon3D PCI-express drivers explicitly states of having solved the bug you mention  By chance have you updated to the latest Recon3D drivers MLE?
  I'm pretty sure you did but, just in case


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

It says I'm already updated. Still jumps back to stereo when I unplug the headphones and plug them back in.


----------



## ilGaspa

Oh :| Guess I havent't been much useful then :/
  That's strange, creative states having corrected this bug in the april release of Recon3D drivers but if you already have the latest ones I guess that the issue they are speaking of is a different one...
   
  Still wondering why the Z I owned (returned it and now choosing between ZxR and Titanium HD) didn't show this behaviour.. Z drivers seems pretty similar to Recon3D ones.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> Lol my point was the headphone port isn't even 116 db. Every z owner pretty much says the line outs sound much better in terms of sq. So imagine compared to the zxr's headphone out. Huge difference in sq. I notice it and other do too.
> 
> At the end of the day I was tying to justify roman797's dilemma by saying upgrading to the zxr isn't diminished returns .


 
   
  I have not enough information about the headphone amplifier of the SBZ to comment on how good it is. I responded to the claim that adding an external amplifier to the line output of the Z would not be worth it because it would be "bottlenecked by the low quality DAC", which in my opinion is likely not the case.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





roman797 said:


> Quick question, does the non-usb M-Stage have a grounded ac connector? If not then I might be able to use that with a soundcard.


 
   
  I think it is the same for the USB and non-USB versions, but I need to check (I do not use the M-Stage myself).


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





stv014 said:


> I have not enough information about the headphone amplifier of the SBZ to comment on how good it is. I responded to the claim that adding an external amplifier to the line output of the Z would not be worth it because it would be "bottlenecked by the low quality DAC", which in my opinion is likely not the case.


 

 Nowhere did I say it was a low quality DAC, its actually a pretty good one.  My point once again was to explain that unless you need the extra power from dual amping in series due to hungry headphones, it wont magically make them sound better.  Because you are still limited by the DAC's SNR further up the chain.  This compared to just getting the ZXR instead.  My apologies if i didnt explain properly, my intention was mainly to help or provide more insight.


----------



## stv014

Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> Nowhere did I say it was a low quality DAC, its actually a pretty good one.


 
   
  You did say it would be a limiting factor in terms of "clarity/sound quality".
   
  Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> My point once again was to explain that unless you need the extra power from dual amping in series due to hungry headphones, it wont magically make them sound better.


 
   
  It is not necessary to "dual amp" (although the disadvantages of that are commonly overstated), since the card also has a line output. Power is not the only relevant parameter of an amplifier, it can affect sound quality in a number of ways, more so than "upgrading" an already decent DAC. Of course, when the built-in amplifier on the SBZ is really good enough, one might just as well use it and save the money for better headphones.
   
  Quote: 





djinferno806 said:


> Because you are still limited by the DAC's SNR further up the chain.


 
   
  You still seem to be fixated on DAC SNR, even though I have already explained that 110+ dB figures are more marketing than something that makes a practically useful difference for music listening. Not to mention, it is the SNR of the entire system (including noise from the amplifier, the source CD, even ambient noise) that matters. If there is audible hiss, that is usually because there is too much gain (including too high headphone sensitivity) after the volume control. The Xonar ST/STX cards are actually an example of this (not sure if the ZxR is similar to those, but it could very well be), because the volume and gain control is entirely digital, and the analog section always runs at maximum volume and gain; that is why these cards can have audible noise with sensitive headphones/IEMs despite the use of a "high end" DAC chip. By contrast, a DAC with lower - but still good enough - specs paired with an external amplifier that has an analog volume control and selectable gain could in fact have less noise overall with the same headphones.
   
  Now I do not say that using the ZxR would be a bad idea, after all, it costs as much or even less than some of the suggested external amplifiers anyway, but that the Z+amplifier combination could work fine without the DAC being a real limiting factor.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well i guess we'll have to agree to disagree lol. 
   
  I still think upgrading ZXR from the Z is a bigger upgrade in sound quality then to add an external amp.  It was for me anyway.  But at the same time I have never used the M-stage with the Z and seen its result so its just my opinion.


----------



## stv014

Quote:  





> I still think upgrading ZXR from the Z is a bigger upgrade in sound quality then to add an external amp.


 
   
  It is not proven, however, that you have actually heard a DAC quality improvement (let alone SNR in particular), and the difference is not due to some other factors.


----------



## roman797

Well guys I am still considering the soundcard/amp combo. The more I read, the more I am leaning towards the Titanium HD/m-stage combo. I know the titanium HD can be had for about $100 (even if used), does anyone think this is a good idea?


----------



## NamelessPFG

Quote: 





roman797 said:


> Well guys I am still considering the soundcard/amp combo. The more I read, the more I am leaning towards the Titanium HD/m-stage combo. I know the titanium HD can be had for about $100 (even if used), does anyone think this is a good idea?


 
   
  Sounds good to me, especially at around $100!
   
  I should have mentioned earlier that most of the decision between the X-Fi Titanium HD and ZxR largely boils down to preference: CMSS-3D Headphone vs. SBX Pro Surround in particular. Based on what little I can discern over YouTube videos, I still favor CMSS-3D Headphone, but that's just me.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Quote: 





namelesspfg said:


> Sounds good to me, especially at around $100!
> 
> I should have mentioned earlier that most of the decision between the X-Fi Titanium HD and ZxR largely boils down to preference: CMSS-3D Headphone vs. SBX Pro Surround in particular. Based on what little I can discern over YouTube videos, I still favor CMSS-3D Headphone, but that's just me.


 
  Couldn't have said it better myself in terms of preference.  $100 is pretty awesome for a high quality card with great gaming support.  CMSS3D definitely is great when it comes to taking 3D cues from OpenAl and DirectSound3D.  I personally prefer SBX still though but that's only due to the EQ not being affected as much after listening to demos from both. 
   
  The only other thing I would consider before pulling the trigger is driver support.  Especially under windows 7/8.  Do some research into the EMU2K(X-fi) cards' driver support in windows 7/8 and discern if you will be ok with it.  This was one of the reasons I decided in the ZXR over the THD after selling my Z.  Just read a lot of horror stories.  But make the decision for yourself.


----------



## Akisunerai

Quick question,

 I plan on picking up the AKG K702-A's sometime in the next week or so (birthday gift to myself). Primarily being a PC gamer, I've lurked back and forth between MLEnvy's thread and this one here, that being said I saw it mentioned a few pages back that I could use the Asus Xonar U3 to run Dolby Headphones through a DAC/AMP (extremely appealing as I have a mini-ITX system without room for a internal card). So my question is... Would the following work correctly to get dolby surround coming from my planned headphone purhcase?

 Computer > Xonar U3 (SPDIF Out) > AudioEngine D1* > Schiit Asgard 2 > K702-A

 * To be replaced with the Schiit Bifrost sometime closer to christmas (not sure if it's going to be much of a difference but I want my stack to match)

 P.S. Not sure if it's all good to post in here for my first post on the site so don't crucify me if it isn't


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The above setup sounds right to get Dolby headphone to work. As long as the u3 supports DH through digital out then you should be good.

I don't see any foreseeable issues.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

It does. That's a hell of a setup.


----------



## Evshrug

djinferno806 said:


> Well i guess we'll have to agree to disagree lol.
> 
> I still think upgrading ZXR from the Z is a bigger upgrade in sound quality then to add an external amp.  It was for me anyway.  But at the same time I have never used the M-stage with the Z and seen its result so its just my opinion.



I don't think he's trying to disagree with you, I think he's trying to broaden your perpective. That the improvement in SQ that's audible to you, going from Z to ZxR, is probably due to other factors making a more significant difference than just the S:N. They could have the same S:N, but still sound different. Sticking to using an S:N as the sole measure of DAC quality is like saying the Ohm "rating" of an amp is the only measure of how good it will sound with a headphone... It's just not the complete picture.

To the person asking... $600 is more than I have to spend ons a birthday present, and I have a full time job, lol! Well... I did just buy a car in July, that downpayment was plenty higher than $600... but I'd been saving for a while. And August I bought a $500 computer, but I needed that too, and I use it to make money. On sheer entertainment equipment, I don't think I've spent $600 at one time on one thing.

The new AKG's are definitely hot products (I'm still enjoying my Q701, $200 used, slightly retuned sound signature but a $100 amp definitely did a fair job driving them with power to spare), and either sound card will do fine driving them. "I" might choose a Z hooked up to an external amp, because the amp can be used with other sources than just the computer (and I already have the amp). I think you can have the card process surround before sending it through the line-outs; I recommend researching further to find out for sure.



akisunerai said:


> Quick question,
> 
> I plan on picking up the AKG K702-A's sometime in the next week or so (birthday gift to myself). Primarily being a PC gamer, I've lurked back and forth between MLEnvy's thread and this one here, that being said I saw it mentioned a few pages back that I could use the Asus Xonar U3 to run Dolby Headphones through a DAC/AMP (extremely appealing as I have a mini-ITX system without room for a internal card). So my question is... Would the following work correctly to get dolby surround coming from my planned headphone purhcase?
> 
> ...




This is a soundcard thread, crucify, CRUCIFY!!!1! Kidding with ya.
Apparently I mixed together my memories of what the two people asking for tips said. Oh well.
The U3 (and U7) have been confirmed to send Dolby processed surround sound out through SPDIF, and of course the Shiit (and Audioengine) gear are very high quality. Possibly gear overkill for DH gaming, but at least you won't be underpowered.
If you've been reading MLE's post long enough to have seen Nameless & My posts, you'll know that while DH is Mad's favourite processing (and I respect that, it's part of my current console setup), but Nameless & I find DH a little limited and outdated compared to what Creative offers. Creative's processing can (if fed the data) create 3D surround compared to the 2D "ring of speakers" simulated by DH (and the very similar Silent Cinema). The good news is that there are people who like each of the different processing codecs. Ultimately, any surround makes a significant difference in gaming over stereo, and your preference (+ what hearing you are equipped with) will dictate which one you will _enjoy_ the most.


----------



## Akisunerai

Thanks for the feedback guys, it's appreciated. In regards to the whole Dolby Headphone vs CMSS-3D, I honestly wanted to try both but with my current PC setup I'm unable to do so as there does not seem to be a USB sound card out there that supports CMSS-3D output through Toslink/Digital Audio out let alone CMSS-3D in itself.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Isn't the X-fi Go! basically the CMSS-3D equivalent to the Xonar U3? It says THX tru Studio, but one of the points states CMSS-3D support.


----------



## Evshrug

The X-Fi Go! Pro is the current version of little USB DAC-On-A-Stick devices, but there have been past versions. The current version does not have digital output to use a different DAC and just pass along CMSS-3D, but the bigger $70 one does (and other features besides, http://us.store.creative.com/Creative-Sound-Blaster-XFi-Surround-5.1/M/B0044DEDCA.htm). I can't tell for sure, but Creative's page on the X-Fi Go! Pro doesn't mention CMSS-3D anywhere and may not be on the current device.


----------



## AvroArrow

My request for recommendations is eerily similar to Akisurenai's.  I just bought a pair of K702.65 a couple of weeks ago as a birthday gift for myself after agonizing over this thread and MLE's headphone thread.  I am currently using it with a Fiio E17 plugged into my PC and it works fairly well for music listening.  I'd like to get the Dolby Headphone for PC gaming through a decent USB DAC plus a separate amp because I don't want it to be locked down to just my PC when I want to move the "audio rig" to my laptop for instance (so no internal PCIe sound cards) which means:
  
 PC or laptop > Asus Xonar U3 optical out > optical in of USB DAC > Amp > K702.65
  
 I originally bought the E17 for use with my Galaxy S3 and future android tablet so I'm looking for a USB or AC powered desktop use DAC and a separate amp to drive the K702.65.  Are there any other USB DACs similar in features (optical input with 24/96+, USB input with 24/96, USB or AC powered) and price to the Audioengine D1?  A desktop version of the E17 with an analogue volume knob would have been perfect for me but Fiio doesn't make that (the E10 is close, but no optical input, which means no DH).  What about a desktop amp that pairs well with the K702.65?  O2?  Magni?  I don't really like the fixed 5x gain on the Magni in case I get some more sensitive/efficient headphones to use with it.  That and it's about $135+brokerage+taxes shipped to Canada, which is not far off from an O2 amp from AudioPoutine, which has the added feature of a high/low gain setting.  
  
 What I'm basically after is a lower budget version of what Akisurenai is after.  His Bifrost+Asgard2 target is way out of my budget.  My budget is about $150USD each for the DAC and Amp (~$300-350 combined for DAC + Amp).  I do want a separate DAC and Amp so if I decide to get a tube amp in the future I can still use the DAC and move the other amp to another computer for maximum flexibility.  
  
 I'm still fairly new to this hobby (I just got my first "audiophile" quality headphones ATH-AD700 just over 3 months ago) so I'm not sure what's available (in terms of DACs) and what amp pairs well with the K702.65.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Optical input? Audio GD NFB 15.32 dac/amp. For less than $300, Tooooons of power, and usb and optical input. It will however not have analog input (so no using other dacs)

It also looks a bit weird.


----------



## PurpleAngel

avroarrow said:


> My request for recommendations is eerily similar to Akisurenai's.  I just bought a pair of K702.65 a couple of weeks ago as a birthday gift for myself after agonizing over this thread and MLE's headphone thread.  I am currently using it with a Fiio E17 plugged into my PC and it works fairly well for music listening.  I'd like to get the Dolby Headphone for PC gaming through a decent USB DAC plus a separate amp because I don't want it to be locked down to just my PC when I want to move the "audio rig" to my laptop for instance (so no internal PCIe sound cards) which means:
> PC or laptop > Asus Xonar U3 optical out > optical in of USB DAC > Amp > K702.65
> I originally bought the E17 for use with my Galaxy S3 and future android tablet so I'm looking for a USB or AC powered desktop use DAC and a separate amp to drive the K702.65.  Are there any other USB DACs similar in features (optical input with 24/96+, USB input with 24/96, USB or AC powered) and price to the Audioengine D1?  A desktop version of the E17 with an analogue volume knob would have been perfect for me but Fiio doesn't make that (the E10 is close, but no optical input, which means no DH).  What about a desktop amp that pairs well with the K702.65?  O2?  Magni?  I don't really like the fixed 5x gain on the Magni in case I get some more sensitive/efficient headphones to use with it.  That and it's about $135+brokerage+taxes shipped to Canada, which is not far off from an O2 amp from AudioPoutine, which has the added feature of a high/low gain setting.
> What I'm basically after is a lower budget version of what Akisurenai is after.  His Bifrost+Asgard2 target is way out of my budget.  My budget is about $150USD each for the DAC and Amp (~$300-350 combined for DAC + Amp).  I do want a separate DAC and Amp so if I decide to get a tube amp in the future I can still use the DAC and move the other amp to another computer for maximum flexibility.
> I'm still fairly new to this hobby (I just got my first "audiophile" quality headphones ATH-AD700 just over 3 months ago) so I'm not sure what's available (in terms of DACs) and what amp pairs well with the K702.65.


 
 Why not just go
 PC or Laptop > Asus Xonar U3 optical out > optical in E17 > K702.65
 You can always buy an optical DAC in the future, when you buy your tube amp.


----------



## FlukeNL

First posted at #1736

(Summary: using onboard sound, want headphones and positional audio for gaming, pretty low budget, say €75)

Thought I'd throw in my experiences and findings, based on advice here and some research of my own:

- My onboard realtek 892 will not do positional audio through headphones
- The upgrade in soundquality with half way decent headphones (over my crappy skype-style headset) and ofcourse good headphones is so enormous, it almost makes me forget about positional audio. I've tried Sennheiser PC150's and an AKG K701. The first was a big step up, but the AKG's... wow . Even though the last one is out of my pricerange, I'm now convinced I should spend the majority of my budget on headphones now.
- For a cheap but able soundcard, there seems to be not much choice besides the Asus Xonar DG(X). It gives me the virtual surround I think I want and an amp for the headphone at a very modest price. Even if binaural audio turns out to be a no-go for me, I'll still have nice sound.

Strategy for now: first the headphones, soundcard later.

I'm now looking at similar models as these two (per advice of PurpleAngel  ) that are locally available:

Takstar Hi2050 (Technical Pro HPT-990) semi-open headphones.

All in all: thanks!

Samson SR850 semi-open headphones.


----------



## Evshrug

avroarrow said:


> My request for recommendations is eerily similar to Akisurenai's.  I just bought a pair of K702.65 a couple of weeks ago as a birthday gift for myself after agonizing over this thread and MLE's headphone thread.  I am currently using it with a Fiio E17 plugged into my PC and it works fairly well for music listening.  I'd like to get the Dolby Headphone for PC gaming through a decent USB DAC plus a separate amp because I don't want it to be locked down to just my PC when I want to move the "audio rig" to my laptop for instance (so no internal PCIe sound cards) which means:
> 
> PC or laptop > Asus Xonar U3 optical out > optical in of USB DAC > Amp > K702.65
> 
> ...




I mean... have you considered just mating the E17 to a FiiO E09k? Basically a desktop amp that the E17 docks into, sounds almost exactly like what you want. Plus, it's slightly warm, so in addition to firming up the Annie's sound it will also add a slight bit of body.


----------



## AvroArrow

mad lust envy said:


> Optical input? Audio GD NFB 15.32 dac/amp. For less than $300, Tooooons of power, and usb and optical input. It will however not have analog input (so no using other dacs)
> 
> It also looks a bit weird.


 
  
 How picky/stable are the Audio GD DACs under Win7 x64?  I've skimmed the 15.32 and 11.32 threads and I keep seeing issues with picky firmware version, driver version, music player, WASAP/ASIO issues, etc.  At casual glance, it looks like a very finicky DAC.  I'm a function over form kinda guy so as long as it works well and is good bang for buck, I don't really care what it looks like.  I'd still prefer a separate DAC and Amp for more flexibility, but if this is the best bang for buck, then I'll have to dig a bit deeper.
  


purpleangel said:


> Why not just go
> PC or Laptop > Asus Xonar U3 optical out > optical in E17 > K702.65
> You can always buy an optical DAC in the future, when you buy your tube amp.


 
  
 The E17 is destined for portable use with my phone/tablet and/or laptop use, that's why I want a desktop rig for my main PC.
  


evshrug said:


> I mean... have you considered just mating the E17 to a FiiO E09k? Basically a desktop amp that the E17 docks into, sounds almost exactly like what you want. Plus, it's slightly warm, so in addition to firming up the Annie's sound it will also add a slight bit of body.


 
  
 I've been doing some reading on some guy's blog site about matching amps to headphones and while some of the math is a bit over my head, 1 thing did stick out.  The output impedance of the headphone jack of the amp should be 1/8 or less of the headphone impedance.  So assuming that's a good guideline, the 10 Ohm output impedance of the E09k is too high for the 62 Ohm of the K702.65 and even worse for the 32 Ohm of the ATH-AD700.  That and having used the E17 for a while now, I really, really want an amp with an analog volume knob.  The up/down button on the E17 is kinda annoying to use because of the timing.  I initially thought the volume buttons on it where flakey/broken until I figured out that I needed faster timing between presses to change the volume.  Like I mentioned before, if Fiio made a desktop version of the E17 with an analog volume knob, I'd be all over it.  Heck, if there was an ODAC with an optical in, I'd be all over that.


----------



## genclaymore

The only issues i had with mine is the DirectKS in the driver has a mind of its own and some times dont work. While others don't have that issue. So for a work around I used ASio4all for my music recording work, and Wasapi for music listening.  But other then that It been working great.  But i really think its  my usb controllers on my mobo is flaky as it been acting up lately disabling on boot.


----------



## OP20

Im a bit new to audio at this level. 7.1 from the Xonar U3 via optical to a dac like the audio engine D1 is going to retain the 7.1 correct? As I understand it the U3 isnt good enough by itself to drive the philips X1 headphones? Sorry if the question sounded silly. I'm a pc only gamer without room for a soundcard. would an amp be required for the X1's in addition to the U3 and dac?
  
 Thankyou for any and all responses. I'm so thankful for the community here otherwise I would be 100% lost


----------



## DJINFERNO806

What do you mean by 7.1? Like the Dolby digital live signal going out or the Dolby headphone encoded stereo signal(7.1 virtual surround). 

The d1 is a stereo DAC so it won't be able to convert multichannel audio or it will just drop the other channels or down sample them to stereo.

If you meant sending Dolby headphone out, then its just a regular stereo signal with an algorithm . 

You'll be fine in that case.


----------



## 0verlord

Hey folks. I was poking around in Mad Lust Envy's thread looking for soundcards, but they didn't seem to have many ideas, I was hoping this thread might be a better fit.
  
 I'm looking at purchasing Sennheiser PC 360s to use for PC gaming on Windows 7. It is my understanding that I need Dolby Headphone. I believe the Realtek ALC889 on my motherboard does not provide Dolby Headphone, and therefor I need a sound card. I have done two hours worth of Googling and searching and I am still drowning. I tried looking at the OP of this thread, but didn't see much about sound cards.
  
 Can anyone help me out here on recommending and picking a sound card?


----------



## genclaymore

Asus Xonar DG is a good choice , it has a decent headphone amp and does have Dolby headphone amp, But is PCI. There is a PCI-E ver called the Xonar DGX which is the same card but for PCI-E slots. So if you dont have any free PCI slots or they are covered up. The DGX would be the alt choice. Both are very affordable, I have seen Cheap DG's on amazon used for like 20 dollar some times on ebay as well.


----------



## NamelessPFG

0verlord said:


> Hey folks. I was poking around in Mad Lust Envy's thread looking for soundcards, but they didn't seem to have many ideas, I was hoping this thread might be a better fit.
> 
> I'm looking at purchasing Sennheiser PC 360s to use for PC gaming on Windows 7. It is my understanding that I need Dolby Headphone. I believe the Realtek ALC889 on my motherboard does not provide Dolby Headphone, and therefor I need a sound card. I have done two hours worth of Googling and searching and I am still drowning. I tried looking at the OP of this thread, but didn't see much about sound cards.
> 
> Can anyone help me out here on recommending and picking a sound card?


 
  
 Geez, now I really do need to rewrite the guide whenever I've got free time.
  
 I thought it was clear to everyone here that I'm a bit of an X-Fi/CMSS-3D Headphone advocate (specifically, X-Fi Titanium non-HD at $50 or less, X-Fi Titanium HD or X-Fi Forte at $100-120), though I don't hesitate to recommend the Xonar DG(X) for someone in need of an affordable sound card under $45.


----------



## 0verlord

I looked under soundcard chipsets and didn't see anything, perhaps I skimmed too quickly. Regardless, I appreciate the resource and I'd hate for anyone to feel undervalued do
  
 Thank you both for your recommendations, I will be researching the X-Fi Titanium and the Xonar DG. Will report back.


----------



## PurpleAngel

op20 said:


> Im a bit new to audio at this level. 7.1 from the Xonar U3 via optical to a dac like the audio engine D1 is going to retain the 7.1 correct? As I understand it the U3 isnt good enough by itself to drive the philips X1 headphones? Sorry if the question sounded silly. I'm a PC only gamer without room for a sound card. would an amp be required for the X1's in addition to the U3 and DAC?
> 
> Thankyou for any and all responses. I'm so thankful for the community here otherwise I would be 100% lost


 
 The Xonar U3 can easily drive the 30-Ohm Philips X1 headphones, but the D1 would offer improved audio quality (and the D1 can easily plug into the U3's S/PDIF optical output).


----------



## PurpleAngel

0verlord said:


> Hey folks. I was poking around in Mad Lust Envy's thread looking for sound cards, but they didn't seem to have many ideas, I was hoping this thread might be a better fit.
> I'm looking at purchasing Sennheiser PC 360s to use for PC gaming on Windows 7. It is my understanding that I need Dolby Headphone. I believe the Realtek ALC889 on my motherboard does not provide Dolby Headphone, and therefor I need a sound card. I have done two hours worth of Googling and searching and I am still drowning. I tried looking at the OP of this thread, but didn't see much about sound cards.
> Can anyone help me out here on recommending and picking a sound card?


 
 Asus Xonar DG (PCI) sound card, $28, the DG's headphone amplifier can easily drive the 50-Ohm PC360,
 decent CS4245 DAC chip, comes with Dolby Headphone.
  
 Creative Sound Blaster Z, $80, better DAC (CS4398) then the DG's
 and the Z's headphone amplifier should have no problem driving the 50-Ohm PC360.
  
 Creative Titanium (non-HD), used $50, can decently drive the PC360, The Titanium's DAC audio quality should be somewhere between the DG and the Z, uses CMSS-3D headphone surround sound.
 It's a slightly older card with mature drivers.


----------



## Evshrug

avroarrow said:


> I've been doing some reading on some guy's blog site about matching amps to headphones and while some of the math is a bit over my head, 1 thing did stick out.  The output impedance of the headphone jack of the amp should be 1/8 or less of the headphone impedance.  So assuming that's a good guideline, the 10 Ohm output impedance of the E09k is too high for the 62 Ohm of the K702.65 and even worse for the 32 Ohm of the ATH-AD700.  That and having used the E17 for a while now, I really, really want an amp with an analog volume knob.  The up/down button on the E17 is kinda annoying to use because of the timing.  I initially thought the volume buttons on it where flakey/broken until I figured out that I needed faster timing between presses to change the volume.  Like I mentioned before, if Fiio made a desktop version of the E17 with an analog volume knob, I'd be all over it.  Heck, if there was an ODAC with an optical in, I'd be all over that.



A certain guy's blog site does provide some insight, and I certainly learned a lot of technical things reading it. However, I honestly don't know what to think about him, or his actions.

Anyway, *back on track.* if you actually looked at an E09k, you'd see it has a big fat glorious analogue volume knob dominating the front of it, and line-in inputs on the back for other sources on the back and even a USB pass through input so that you can plug your E17 into the computer without mucking about with a mess of wires each time. Yes, it has a 10 Ohm output impedance, very similar to what early iPods had, but if you learn more, you'll find that output impedance matters because on many headphones, their impedance changes with frequency. The K701 variants actually have unusually linear impedance (doesn't change much with frequency), so, even though it already has pretty good damping, that level impedance reaction makes it less reactive to higher output impedances. I thought about getting an E09k for myself before, but I ended up getting an E12 instead, which suits me fine. If you want to spend more on an O2 (which isn't very ergonomicly designed), it sounds very similar. The AD700 doesn't scale up with amping beyond what you already get with your e17, so another amp would mostly just be for convenience with that headphone, and a couple dB of raised bass in the AD700 from a 10 ohm output impedance on the E9 might actually be enjoyable.


----------



## OP20

Thankyou for the responses. I was reading there was a slight loss of audio quality going directly from the U3 to the X1. I just want to retain the 7.1 effect while improving the sound quality.
  
 I'm not 100% on how these external sound cards work but 30-Ohm Philips X1 headphones rated means it will wont have any kind of loss of audio quality using the U3? 
  
 Once again, thankyou for your responses!


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

The U3 has a 23-ohm output impedance, and is absolutely not ideal to hook the X1 directly to it, though I've done it and will do fine until you find a real dac/amp to hook up with it.

ALl I can say is that if you're fine with hiding the U3 behind a real spdif dac/amp, that's all you will ever need.

For instance, here are some examples:

PC - U3 - optical - E17

PC - U3 - optical - Nuforce HDP

PC - U3 - optical - Audio-GD NFB 11.32, 15.32, Compass 2

Budget solution: PC - U3 - optical - Fiio D03k spdif dac ($30) - Fiio E5 amp ($20)

Yes, it's external, but it's small, and can be hidden away.

Of course if you can just get an internal soundcard, it's less to tuck away. The U3 is the external equivalent to the Xonar DG, so if you can score the DG, it should be at least on par. Just set the optical out on the DG to keep Dolby Headphone, and do the same things I mentioned above.


----------



## IronDoq

0verlord said:


> Hey folks. I was poking around in Mad Lust Envy's thread looking for soundcards, but they didn't seem to have many ideas, I was hoping this thread might be a better fit.
> 
> I'm looking at purchasing Sennheiser PC 360s to use for PC gaming on Windows 7. It is my understanding that I need Dolby Headphone. I believe the Realtek ALC889 on my motherboard does not provide Dolby Headphone, and therefor I need a sound card. I have done two hours worth of Googling and searching and I am still drowning. I tried looking at the OP of this thread, but didn't see much about sound cards.
> 
> Can anyone help me out here on recommending and picking a sound card?


 
  
 I have a titanium HD and PC360s (Soon to be HE-500s), and I can tell you that audio positioning is great.  I highly recomment the sound card, it looks great (which only matters if you're a DIY PC buff like me) and sounds fine.  The features are a plus, too.


----------



## Nijs

Hey guys,
  
 Ive read here that the titanium HD has cmss-3d but on the creative page they only mention THX TruStudio Pro, can anyone clarify this for me?
  
 They dont have any cmss-3d card anymore Oo


----------



## Evshrug

mad lust envy said:


> The U3 has a 23-ohm output impedance, and is absolutely not ideal to hook the X1 directly to it, though I've done it and will do fine until you find a real dac/amp to hook up with it.
> 
> ALl I can say is that if you're fine with hiding the U3 behind a real spdif dac/amp, that's all you will ever need.
> 
> ...



Woah, I just read that some of the Asus internal soundcards have 100 ohm output impedances! I'll look further into this and report back, hopefully that's just on the line-outs or something!


----------



## stv014

evshrug said:


> Woah, I just read that some of the Asus internal soundcards have 100 ohm output impedances! I'll look further into this and report back, hopefully that's just on the line-outs or something!


 
  
 That is definitely the case for the Xonar D1, which I have and measured, and therefore very likely also for its PCIe version, the Xonar DX. These cards are not marketed as having a built-in headphone amplifier anyway, but work well as a DAC (or with headphones not affected too much by the output impedance and limited power). The same might be true of the Xonar D2 and D2X, but this is only a guess (based on the fact that these are also targeted at "home theater" applications, and do not advertise a headphone amplifier either). The Essence ST and STX (another card that I actually tested) have 10 Ω output impedance on the headphone jack, and 100 Ω on the line out. I guess the Xonar Phoebus, with similar specs as the ST/STX, have the same output impedance. The Xonar DG uses the same "headphone amplifier" (that is, a chip originally intended for use as a line out buffer) as the U3, and the output impedance might be similar as well, although I have seen 10 Ω resistors on pictures of the board near the DRV601. Finally, I recall someone measuring 10 Ω on the Essence One, it is somewhere in this thread.
  
 For Creative cards, goldenears.net measured 35-36 Ω on the Titanium HD, and a Russian review site tested the Sound Blaster ZxR, and measured 40 Ω (despite this card using a TPA6120A2 chip, which is usually implemented with an output impedance of 10 Ω).


----------



## 0verlord

Everything but the Xonar DG is over $100 on Amazon and Newegg, or unavailable, so it looks like it's the Xonar DG. Thank you everyone for your time and recommendations. I can't wait to experience positional audio.


----------



## OP20

Thankyou for the responses. I just read that the Asus Xonar Essence STX has an output impedance of 10 ohm. I'm not an audiophile with any HiFi experience... am I going to be able to tell the difference between 23 and 10 ohms output impedance?
  
In the past couple days of research I find myself curious if my inexperienced ears would be able to pick up on any audio degradation of going from the U3 directly. I'm always very interested in finding the very best solution from experienced people such as the audiophiles here... but I also enjoy an very clean desk  It's unfortunate I don't have room for an internal card... and that the Xonar U7 kinda sucks from what I've read as far as positional audio compared to the U3.


----------



## PurpleAngel

nijs said:


> I've read here that the Titanium HD has cmss-3d but on the creative page they only mention THX TruStudio Pro, can anyone clarify this for me?
> They don't have any cmss-3d card anymore Oo


 
 Creative sound cards used CMSS-3D up until the Titanium/Titanium HD series sound cards.
 (Which I believe works with any version of Microsoft Windows).
 Creative then switched over to the Recon3D series (drop in sound quality).
 Now Creative has the Z series which uses the TruStudio Pro software, which only works with Win 7 or Win 8.
 I guess Creative Labs want people to buy the TruStudio Pro, over the older Titanium/Recon3D stuff.


----------



## Nijs

well that sucks, im looking for a setup to go with my akg 702 anni and i was thinking to get the tit HD + AMP.
  
 Since they're abandoning cmss-3d should i get the zxr instead or the tit HD is still a good choice? will the zxr card alone drive the 702 anni?


----------



## Evshrug

Nijs,
Last time I checked, the Ti HD had THX TruStudio Pro surround processing for "entertainment" mode, but "gaming" mode still used CMSS-3D. The new Z-series cards from Creative use SBX ProStudio, which has been confirmed to be slightly different sounding from THX TSP (even though the driver control panel looks about the same). I like the new stuff, but the older Ti HD is still a good card (former flagship).


----------



## PurpleAngel

nijs said:


> well that sucks, I'm looking for a setup to go with my AKG 702 anni and I was thinking to get the tit HD + AMP.
> 
> Since they're abandoning cmss-3d should i get the ZxR instead or the Titanium HD is still a good choice? will the ZxR card alone drive the 702 anni?


 
 I would say to get the T-HD (Titanium HD) and a Schiit Magni headphone amplifier.
 The Schiit Magni has an output impedance of less then 1-Ohm  so should be a slightly better amp for the 62-Ohm Annies. (the ZxR is about 10-Ohm, I think).
 The ZxR and T-HD use the same PCM1794 DAC chip for the headphones
 You can use all three of the T-HD's op-amps for processing headphone audio (RCA jacks), with the ZxR you can only use two of the op-amps for headphone audio.
 Both the ZxR and Schiit can drive headphones up to 600-Ohm (guessing).
 The Schit Magni is external, so less affected by any electrical noise inside the computer case.
 The Schiit Magni can be used with other sources besides the T-HD.


----------



## AvroArrow

evshrug said:


> Anyway, *back on track.* if you actually looked at an E09k, you'd see it has a big fat glorious analogue volume knob dominating the front of it, and line-in inputs on the back for other sources on the back and even a USB pass through input so that you can plug your E17 into the computer without mucking about with a mess of wires each time. Yes, it has a 10 Ohm output impedance, very similar to what early iPods had, but if you learn more, you'll find that output impedance matters because on many headphones, their impedance changes with frequency. The K701 variants actually have unusually linear impedance (doesn't change much with frequency), so, even though it already has pretty good damping, that level impedance reaction makes it less reactive to higher output impedances. I thought about getting an E09k for myself before, but I ended up getting an E12 instead, which suits me fine. If you want to spend more on an O2 (which isn't very ergonomicly designed), it sounds very similar. The AD700 doesn't scale up with amping beyond what you already get with your e17, so another amp would mostly just be for convenience with that headphone, and a couple dB of raised bass in the AD700 from a 10 ohm output impedance on the E9 might actually be enjoyable.


 
  
 I have looked at the E09k and it would make a very slick desktop setup but I was worried about the 10 Ohm impedance.  I did see some people suggesting it as a suitable amp for the K/Q70x but I couldn't figure out why since the output impedance was so high.  Thank you for the technical explanation of the linear impedance behavior of the K/Q70x.  I didn't know impedance varies with frequency on headphones.  
  
 I may have to reconsider my planned game/desktop setup.  The main reason I didn't want to use the E17 as my main desktop rig all the time is because of undue battery wear on the proprietary li-ion battery.  I didn't realize until I got it that it never runs on USB power, it's always battery powered, just with inline charging.  From my other hobby I have experienced li-ion capacity degradation due to many charge cycles over 2-3 years.  I want the E17 to last by minimizing unnecessary charge cycles.  I have already disabled USB charging on it to force it to only charge when it's empty, but if I run it as my main desktop rig, it was wear out faster than if it was only used on my laptop & phone/tablet.  But realistically speaking, I'll probably want and buy something better (read: $$$$) before the battery dies so I might as well use it and enjoy it now.  I did look at the O2 amp (paired with ODAC) and agree the physical port design leaves something to be desired.  I think it was designed that way as a compromise to reduce cost and make it "portable" capable, but I would have preferred a rear power and line-in jacks.  
  
 As it stands, buying an Asus U3 and Fiio E09k would be my cheapest option (sunk cost of the E17 doesn't count) to get what I want.  MLE's suggestion of the Audio GD 15.32 is a much more powerful setup and more future-proof for some hard to drive headphones like the HE-500 or something, but it's less flexible in that it can't be re-used as an analog amp (since it has no analog inputs).  The various potential firmware and/or driver issues and extra cost of shipping it back for any warranty/doa issues also factors in.  I can buy the E09k at a local store and return/exchange it if I get a DoA unit.  
  
 Thanks for the info about the AD700 amp scaling.  Now I know what (not) to expect when I plug them into the E09k.  I may just leave them plugged into the front ports of the onboard Realtek audio when I want to run them in headset mode with the v-moda boom mic.


----------



## Evshrug

Avro,
 I hope I didn't overdo it, but I get a kick out of figuring things out and helping. I don't ALWAYS know the best answer, but usually I can point the way.
  
 I actually paraphrased the headphone impedance info from that certain guy's blog. He does show the E9 in a few of the graphs, and shows the difference in how much amp output ohms has on two different headphones (with less effect on the Sennheiser), and says that if a headphone had a linear impedance response (he didn't know of one) it wouldn't be affected much by the amp output ohms.
  
 I didn't know the E17 kept using battery power even while charging. I was personally very excited about the E11 having changeable batteries and tried petitioning for the E12 to have that feature when it was being designed, but I lost out to the majority that said they'd like to use the amp while charging. But, I came to the same conclusion as you: probably will buy something else once the battery wears out, might as well get my money's worth in the meantime. What I know about lithium ion batteries from training at work, they do wear down over time like a car tire, but not using them at least once a month for a full cycle can also be harmful to the maximum battery health (so exercise the cells for a full cycle at least once a month), and that it doesn't suffer from memory effects like old rechargeable battery types so normally you can "top off" the battery without hurting it.
  
 The O2's design tries to be somewhere between a desktop and portable, and ergonomically isn't successful at either, IMO. Bigger than pocket size, awkward shape, while also having a smaller knob and cluttered port design, and not being as good as a desktop amp could be (though very nice for a portable amp, tho I don't count a transportable amp as a portable... my iMac is transportable too, and I don't call it a portable!).
  
 I don't think I'd ever buy the AudioGD personally, just from the price, Mad's slight improvement in performance, and the issues he had with it.
  
 if the AD700 changes at all from the 10 ohm output impedance of the E09k's amp, it would be a bit of bass warmth that might actually sound nicer


----------



## Nijs

evshrug said:


> Nijs,
> Last time I checked, the Ti HD had THX TruStudio Pro surround processing for "entertainment" mode, but "gaming" mode still used CMSS-3D. The new Z-series cards from Creative use SBX ProStudio, which has been confirmed to be slightly different sounding from THX TSP (even though the driver control panel looks about the same). I like the new stuff, but the older Ti HD is still a good card (former flagship).


 
  
 Tks for the reply *Evshrug, *i managed to confirm that the card uses cmss-3d as well . Oh i thought sbx was thx renamed... anyway sbx is good but for my ears nothing beats cmss-3d and thats why im willing to risk bad driver support. I just hope it wont be a bad move on my part...


purpleangel said:


> I would say to get the T-HD (Titanium HD) and a Schiit Magni headphone amplifier.
> The Schiit Magni has an output impedance of less then 1-Ohm  so should be a slightly better amp for the 62-Ohm Annies. (the ZxR is about 10-Ohm, I think).
> The ZxR and T-HD use the same PCM1794 DAC chip for the headphones
> You can use all three of the T-HD's op-amps for processing headphone audio (RCA jacks), with the ZxR you can only use two of the op-amps for headphone audio.
> ...


 
  
 tks once again, *PurpleAngel, *but since the T-HD is rather expensive in my country and even if i order online i was thinking to get the normal titanium + the magni/modi combo. ppl in the k702 anniversary thread say that the combo works well enough and the difference will be small, 5-10€ cheaper
  
 I couldnt confirm if the DAC in the modi is better or not than in the titanium hd, does anyone know?
  
 According to what ive read ill still get the cmss-3d via optical from the card right?
  
 Stupid question but do the magni/modi and the Soundcard come with cables or do i have to purchase them separately? My first time buying any of these equipments...
  
 Thank you


----------



## Evshrug

Nijs,
I thought SBX was just THX renamed at first too (which was fine with me, I LIKE THX, just the Recon3D hardware had "room for improvement" compared to the X-Fi and Z-series gear), but numerous people who've tried both say they are different, and they posted surround-processed videos on the web which seem to illustrate the difference well (even though YouTube compression hurts the maximum quality). And about driver support, Nameless seems to get on well enough with his X-Fi card.

I think the Modi uses a sabre DAC, but can't remember which chip number. If I recall correctly, it's the same one used in the ODAC (different implementation tho). I doubt the Schiit stack comes with cables, but I haven't bought one and could be wrong.


----------



## PurpleAngel

nijs said:


> tks once again, *PurpleAngel, *but since the T-HD is rather expensive in my country and even if I order online I was thinking to get the normal Titanium + the Magni/Modi combo. ppl in the k702 anniversary thread say that the combo works well enough and the difference will be small, 5-10€ cheaper
> I couldn't confirm if the DAC in the Modi is better or not than in the Titanium HD, does anyone know?
> According to what I've read I'll still get the CMSS-3D via optical from the card right?
> Stupid question but do the Magni/Modi and the sound card come with cables or do i have to purchase them separately? My first time buying any of these equipments...


 
 The Titanium (non-HD) has the same surround sound features as the Titanium HD
 The Modi is a USB input DAC and the Titanium has a S/PDIF optical output, so you can't use the Titanium with the Modi, when you plug the USB Modi into your computer it will bypass the Titanium sound card.
 You might just get the Titanium (non-HD) and the Schiit Magni for now, as you can plug the Magni into the Titanium's line-out/headphone jack.
  
 Not sure how the Titanium HD's PCM1794 DAC chip compares to the Modi's AK4396 DAC chip.
 The Titanium (non-HD) uses the CS4382 DAC chip.


----------



## pox67

Nijs, I got the Titanium non-HD so I could use 5.1 surround speakers and have an Audioengine D1 AMP/DAC plugged in to the optical for headphones. 
 The Audioengine D1 sounds great so far and CMSS-3D comes though over the optical link.
 Not sure if that helps you or not.


----------



## Nijs

@ Evshrug
  
 I couldnt find any info regarding the modi DAC so i emailed them for more details and the cables  the o2 /odac combo is under my eye as well. Im still looking for the best combo for my budget but there are so many options and so many opinions is hard to decide.
  
 Now i know how girls feel when buying shoes...and thats why they buy all the shoes they see, they just cant decide which one to get 
  
 @ PurpleAngel
  
 duh i completely forgot to check the inputs on the modi, good thing i posted here 
 im going with the titanium non hd, just lurking on the akg 702 anni what setups ppl have and hopefully theres someone with a good setup within my budget and similar music taste
  
 @ pox67
  
 hey pox tks for the feedback, im checking the D1 atm
  
  
 Edit: well im going with the Titanium HD and a Schiit Magni
  
 thanks everyone for the feedback, much appreciated. Merry Christmas


----------



## PurpleAngel

nijs said:


> @ Evshrug
> I couldnt find any info regarding the modi DAC so i emailed them for more details and the cables  the o2 /odac combo is under my eye as well. I'm still looking for the best combo for my budget but there are so many options and so many opinions is hard to decide.
> Now i know how girls feel when buying shoes...and that's why they buy all the shoes they see, they just cant decide which one to get
> @ PurpleAngel
> ...


 
 When you install the Titanium HD, remember to disable on-board audio (in the BIOS).
 And with the Titanium HD, you plug external headphone amplifiers into the RCA outputs, not the Titanium's headphone jack.


----------



## Nijs

Alright man, thanks once again


----------



## AvroArrow

evshrug said:


> Avro,
> I hope I didn't overdo it, but I get a kick out of figuring things out and helping. I don't ALWAYS know the best answer, but usually I can point the way.
> 
> I didn't know the E17 kept using battery power even while charging. I was personally very excited about the E11 having changeable batteries and tried petitioning for the E12 to have that feature when it was being designed, but I lost out to the majority that said they'd like to use the amp while charging. But, I came to the same conclusion as you: probably will buy something else once the battery wears out, might as well get my money's worth in the meantime. What I know about lithium ion batteries from training at work, they do wear down over time like a car tire, but not using them at least once a month for a full cycle can also be harmful to the maximum battery health (so exercise the cells for a full cycle at least once a month), and that it doesn't suffer from memory effects like old rechargeable battery types so normally you can "top off" the battery without hurting it.
> ...


 
  
 It was just the right amount of techno babble.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I do that sometimes too.  I can get a bit too wordy on topics that I have some good knowledge on.  
  
 I was not pleased when I learned that the E17 was not running directly on USB power until after I got it.  But that was my own fault of not doing enough research.  That and it was an impulse buy because it was a cheaper open box unit, which was basically brand new, even the screen protectors were untouched.  
  
 Yes, I also know that li-ions degrade over time even when they are unused.  It's a side effect of the li-ion chemistry.  In usage cases like smart phones, that won't matter because it will degrade faster from the almost daily charge cycles before chemical breakdown over time degrades it.  But for other uses like in high powered flashlights the degradation over time is more of an issue.  
  
 I agree that the O2 has a very messy wire layout in it's stock form, partly why I didn't really want to get it.  Hopefully I'll have some time this week to pick up the E09k from the store.  I got the Dolby Headphone over optical into my E17 working last night.  Man... movies sound awesome on my AKGs now.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That virtualized positional audio works great for the 6-channel audio in movies.  Unfortunately the only game I currently play with any regularity is Guild Wars 2, which doesn't have the greatest positional audio since it's only a MMORPG.  But in the areas where it is used, it definitely sounds better than before because I tested it before and after DH was turned on.  I guess I should start installing/downloading some of those games I bought during the last Steam sale.  I've installed/played maybe 10-15% of my Steam library...


----------



## pietcux

op20 said:


> Thankyou for the responses. I just read that the Asus Xonar Essence STX has an output impedance of 10 ohm[COLOR=444444]. I'm not an audiophile with any HiFi experience... am I going to be able to tell the difference between 23 and 10 ohms output impedance?[/COLOR]
> 
> [COLOR=444444]In the past couple days of research I find myself curious if my inexperienced ears would be able to pick up on any audio[/COLOR] degradation [COLOR=444444]of going from the U3 directly. I'm always very interested in finding the very best solution from experienced people such as the audiophiles here... but I also enjoy an very clean desk  It's unfortunate I don't have room for an internal card... and that the Xonar U7 kinda sucks from what I've read as far as positional audio compared to the U3.[/COLOR]




Where did you find that the U7 is inferior than the U3? The U7 is Asus's TOTL usb soundcard with Dolby Headphone. Then they have the U1 which is also very good and then last one is the U3.


----------



## Evshrug

AvroArrow,
It was only a month after getting the Q701 that I decided the AD700 was over-tight on bass (and sub bass was hard to hear in a mix), that's why I think a little boomy ness from slightly suboptimal impedance mismatching could actually relax the stiff posture of the AD700 and make for good synergy. Also, I heard about wrapping the pads with Saran/cling-wrap/plastic-wrap alters the sound after I sold my AD700 earlier this year, I am curious what a ring sealing the outer-face of the pads would do to the sound.

Hopefully the E09k satisfies you, although I'm confident it would resell well if necessary.

Q701 + virtual surround + movies = clearer and more realistic sound and immersion than even at the movie theater. I *LOVE* it. And I am definitely going to enjoy either some movies or games today my day off, once I stop luxuriating over being lazy in bed. Been on my feet and getting too little sleep lately, but I also have gained an owned-game backlog in the past year, for the first time in my life.


----------



## NamelessPFG

As the good chaps on VOGONS noticed, Creative Labs' Connect developer website is down.
  
This is the official statement on said site being taken down.
  
 Thankfully, this is where Web page archival sites come in really handy...but the developer site, something that has little value to the end user, being down isn't the real problem.
  
 The real problem is that Creative allowed it to become so neglected and just cast it aside like an afterthought. They've given up on making use of their 3D audio technologies despite holding them in their iron grasp, and isn't really doing anything to help developers utilize them. No wonder PC gaming audio is in the sorry state it is now.
  
 Someone needs to buy out all their 3D audio-related technology, especially the stuff they took from Aureal, and do something with it, just so it won't go to waste. It could make for a killer audio middleware that blows away FMOD and Wwise, along with an application along the lines of Razer Surround to provide headphone surround to any audio device, even USB DACs.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Check this out Nameless:
  
_http://www.nvidia.com/content/GTC-2010/pdfs/2042_GTC2010.pdf _
  
 It's quite interesting. Seeing that the PS4 was born for compute tasks (and given that it is much better equipped than the Xbox One in that regard) I'm curious to see what the new consoles could provoke for the PC. On the other hand the audio chip on the Xbox One is pretty powerful.


----------



## NamelessPFG

fegefeuer said:


> Check this out Nameless:
> 
> _http://www.nvidia.com/content/GTC-2010/pdfs/2042_GTC2010.pdf _
> 
> It's quite interesting. Seeing that the PS4 was born for compute tasks (and given that it is much better equipped than the Xbox One in that regard) I'm curious to see what the new consoles could provoke for the PC. On the other hand the audio chip on the Xbox One is pretty powerful.


 
  
 That link gave me a 404, but I'm pretty sure I read it before at some point, using the GPU for sound processing.
  
 It doesn't really surprise me, given that when I heard about GPGPU designs being used for raytracing years ago, I naturally thought "If we can trace rays of light with these modern GPUs, how about tracing sound waves like Aureal did a decade ago with much slower CPUs and fixed-function GPUs?"


----------



## DJINFERNO806

namelesspfg said:


> As the good chaps on VOGONS noticed, Creative Labs' Connect developer website is down.
> 
> This is the official statement on said site being taken down.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Im surprised there hasnt been a kickstarter yet for this reason exactly?  However there is no guarantee that Creative would sell it even if the money was raised.  And who know how much the buy out would have to be anyway.  
  
  



namelesspfg said:


> That link gave me a 404, but I'm pretty sure I read it before at some point, using the GPU for sound processing.
> 
> It doesn't really surprise me, given that when I heard about GPGPU designs being used for raytracing years ago, I naturally thought "If we can trace rays of light with these modern GPUs, how about tracing sound waves like Aureal did a decade ago with much slower CPUs and fixed-function GPUs?"


 
  
 You know this might sound like conspiracy theory info but I was thinking.  So the Xbox One has a dedicated sound processor right?  
  
 Rumour has it that Microsoft is developing a new audio API to go along with this.  I highly doubt that Xaudio2 will be back for the new console.  Maybe we will see Xaudio3 or something else.  Regardless lets assume this API would allow hardware acceleration in order to use the sound processor.  
  
 Now I will assume they will make this API available in newer Direct X revisions for PC as they did with Xaudio2.  
  
 So is this a coincidence with Windows 8 bringing back hardware audio? Imagine bypassing the WASAPI and going straight to the driver using a new API.
  
 The only thing that doesnt make sense is who would make hardware for this new API to run in hardware mode?  Creative? Or maybe Nvidia/AMD? What about all 3?  Maybe it will be universal and vendors can add their own features and such.  There was a recent announcement of Nvidia releasing something  new and not a GPU either.  
  
 Like I said conspiracy theory stuff eh? lol
  
 One can only hope.
  
  
 P.S. 
  
 Would you want to update the OP with SBX surround option under Binaural Tech?  Just an idea so the main ones used nowadays are all there.


----------



## Fegefeuer

*New Soundblaster cards with CMSS-3D*, albeit lesser models.
  
 One external device with up to 600 Ohm.
  
http://www.techpowerup.com/190126/creative-announces-the-sound-blaster-omni-surround-5-1-usb-sound-card.html


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Audigy Rx,
  
 Seems like its aimed at recording from the creative page.  And the CMSS/3D looks like its just for upmixing stereo content to multichannel stereo....
  
 There isnt one mention of gaming or anything.
  
 Audigy Fx,
  
 It uses SBX pro surround like the Z series.  Seems its just a direct competitor to ASUS' line of cheap headphone amp cards.  DGX?


----------



## Evshrug

fegefeuer said:


> *New Soundblaster cards with CMSS-3D*, albeit lesser models.
> 
> One external device with up to 600 Ohm.
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/190126/creative-announces-the-sound-blaster-omni-surround-5-1-usb-sound-card.html



The omni is too close to the recon3D to NOT be the successor to the Recon3D USB that Creative hinted to me. A shame, because it looks like a nice unit, but no optical-in for console surround. Unless I still had a laptop, I'd rather just buy the Z card for my windows computer... and I'm just not ready to drop the cash when the Recon3D USB meets my needs satisfactorily (just a few more features and refinements would make it awesome).


----------



## PurpleAngel

djinferno806 said:


> Audigy Rx,
> Seems like its aimed at recording from the creative page.  And the CMSS/3D looks like its just for upmixing stereo content to multichannel stereo....
> There isnt one mention of gaming or anything.
> Audigy Fx,
> It uses SBX pro surround like the Z series.  Seems its just a direct competitor to ASUS' line of cheap headphone amp cards.  DGX?


 
 The Audigy Rx is the Audigy 4 (same CA10300 audio processor) with a cheap headphone amplifier and SBX Studio Pro software drivers added.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya the boards look awefully similar too with the placement of the chip slightly off. 

My question is why keep using that chip. They make it sound like only it can do EAX processing.


----------



## Fegefeuer

evshrug said:


> The omni is too close to the recon3D to NOT be the successor to the Recon3D USB that Creative hinted to me. A shame, because it looks like a nice unit, but no optical-in for console surround. Unless I still had a laptop, I'd rather just buy the Z card for my windows computer... and I'm just not ready to drop the cash when the Recon3D USB meets my needs satisfactorily (just a few more features and refinements would make it awesome).


 
  
 Yeah, it was the first thing I checked. "Please be an external SBX device, also for consoles" :[


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya its unfortunate there's no optical...

The recon3d would be perfect if it was upgraded to use sbx instead of thx and they upped the headphone amp and DAC to that of the z's quality. I tried using it for my Xbox but the hissing was too much and a lack of power for those harder to use headphones.

I think with that it would take down the mixamp as the go to device for hrtf on consoles.


----------



## PurpleAngel

djinferno806 said:


> Ya the boards look awefully similar too with the placement of the chip slightly off.
> My question is why keep using that chip. They make it sound like only it can do EAX processing.


 
 I'm guessing cost, I'm assuming the CA10300 audio processor (Audigy 4) is cheaper to manufacture then the current SoundCore3D.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Makes sense especially if they have a surplus of them stored away.


----------



## Evshrug

djinferno806 said:


> Ya its unfortunate there's no optical...
> 
> The recon3d would be perfect if it was upgraded to use sbx instead of thx and they upped the headphone amp and DAC to that of the z's quality. I tried using it for my Xbox but the hissing was too much and a lack of power for those harder to use headphones.
> 
> I think with that it would take down the mixamp as the go to device for hrtf on consoles.




It does have an optical OUT. But no innie. From all reports/reviews I've read comparing, the Recon3D USB has a cleaner line-out signal than the Astro Mixamp for double-amping (and I know myself it's superior over the DSS), so I'd take an educated guess that the DAC and amp are superior to the Mixamp's. ONLY THING the Recon3D lacks to the Mixamp is chat volume control, and even that only on consoles (much more control than a Mixamp at it's best when the Recon3D is connected to a PC).

You got hissing when connecting your Z to the Xbox? Via Optical? That'd be real bad news bears. Sure you used the two-channel output from the Xbox (since internal cards don't support DDL input)?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Lol no no... I tried using a recon3d and there was some hissing.

I agree with you on your points. The recon3d is cleaner than mixamp however I think Dolby headphone is superior to thx surround. However sbx is superior to both of those IMHO. 

I don't do much console gaming anymore so its not a huge problem but creative could of had a huge winner on their hands with a few tweaks.


----------



## NamelessPFG

fegefeuer said:


> *New Soundblaster cards with CMSS-3D*, albeit lesser models.
> 
> One external device with up to 600 Ohm.
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/190126/creative-announces-the-sound-blaster-omni-surround-5-1-usb-sound-card.html


 
  
  
 Well, this I didn't see coming...they're still keeping the Audigy brand around, and now introducing cards in PCIe flavor?
  
 I really don't get Creative's direction a lot of the time, but now I'm curious if that's a real EMU10K2 on those Audigy cards, particularly the Rx. This could lead to kX Project driver support for those who want it on a PCIe card. (Though I'd prefer that Creative just open up the EMU20K1/2 documentation so they can make use of the X-Fi DSP...)
  
 By the way, NONE of those are mentioned as having CMSS-3D Headphone, just the SBX Pro suite (including SBX Pro Surround implicitly).
  


purpleangel said:


> I'm guessing cost, I'm assuming the CA10300 audio processor (Audigy 4) is cheaper to manufacture then the current SoundCore3D.


 
  
 Given that the actual Sound Core3D seems to be a miniature IC not much unlike the one on the Audigy SE and other cards that simply use host-based (read: software) processing, I wouldn't be surprised if the EMU10K2 is actually the more expensive one to produce. That's what baffles me even more.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

As far as I can tell there is no E-MU chip on the fx. That one just has basic sbx studio finctionality. If you look at the card their is a smaller chip on there. Maybe the soundcore3D?


----------



## NamelessPFG

djinferno806 said:


> As far as I can tell there is no E-MU chip on the fx. That one just has basic sbx studio finctionality. If you look at the card their is a smaller chip on there. Maybe the soundcore3D?


 
  
 Crap, I got the cards mixed up! I meant the Rx.
  
 It may not actually be an EMU10K2 (hard to tell with the low image resolution), but it's a huge chip and I don't see any other reason Creative would suddenly choose to recycle the Audigy brand now.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

From pics of both cards( audigy RX and audigy 4) it shows they both use the ca10300-iat. Unless the RX pics are doctored by creative? I don't see why they would.

According to some online sources, mainly kx threads, it seems those are emu10k2.5 which have been used since after the audigy 2 cards onwards. Not sure the differences or what not. The RX also has a PLX chip onboard most likely for a PCIe bridge.

Ya I don't know why they would recycle the brand either.... Only thing I can think of is like I mentioned, wasted stock of these chips? I don't understand why anyone would care about upmixed cmss3d stereo or EAX reverb added to music or media...


----------



## Vague

Been looking to upgrade to higher-end audio for FPS gaming but i honestly have no clue what so ever to upgrade to in terms of Soundcard or Dac/Amp but i have picked out headphones i like HD598's. Would be great if someone could help me out.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

You have two basic choices first.

You want virtual surround options for your games or do you plan on pure stereo?

Stereo: Buy an external Amp + DAC or a combo. This allows you to bring it with you for use portably or on another audio source.

Surround: Sound blaster Z series/Asus Xonar line. Or alternatively an x-fi tiHD if you play older games a lot for its abilities there. I'm not sure how well it would power certain headphones so an amp may be needed for that card.


----------



## Vague

djinferno806 said:


> You have two basic choices first.
> 
> You want virtual surround options for your games or do you plan on pure stereo?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Does pure stereo give you good positional audio or would i need Virtual sound for that?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

That depends on you. I personally think stereo sucks for gaming and I need the natural position(attempted anyway) and soundstage of virtual surround. A lot of guys though swear by pure stereo and say it gives them amazing positioning. You can still get direction albeit a limited amount. 

It seems to be personal preference really. My recommendation would be listen to both while playing your favourite games and decide.


----------



## Vague

djinferno806 said:


> That depends on you. I personally think stereo sucks for gaming and I need the natural position(attempted anyway) and soundstage of virtual surround. A lot of guys though swear by pure stereo and say it gives them amazing positioning. You can still get direction albeit a limited amount.
> 
> It seems to be personal preference really. My recommendation would be listen to both while playing your favourite games and decide.


 
  
 In that case i will get Xonar Essence STX or Phoebus. Thanks dude.


----------



## PurpleAngel

vague said:


> In that case i will get Xonar Essence STX or Phoebus. Thanks dude.


 
 I'm an Xonar fan (and STX owner).
 But if you want to save a few dollars, the SB-Z (Sound Blaster Z, model SB1500) sells for $95 (plus any tax & shipping), the SB-Z may not have as good a headphone amplifier as the STX/Phoebus, but as the HD598s are only 50-Ohm, they a very easy to drive.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ I agree. As long as your not anal about needing top of the line headphone amp and DAC, the z is the best price/performance card around. Especially if you prefer sbx over Dolby headphones.


----------



## Evshrug

Eeuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuah!


----------



## Vague

djinferno806 said:


> ^ I agree. As long as your not anal about needing top of the line headphone amp and DAC, the z is the best price/performance card around. Especially if you prefer sbx over Dolby headphones.


 
  
 Would this be a good setup for gaming and music. Sound Blaster Z with external Amp?


----------



## PurpleAngel

vague said:


> Would this be a good setup for gaming and music. Sound Blaster Z with external Amp?


 
 Do you already have the Z card?
 Would be nice to know if the Z series can send Headphone Surround Sound out of it's front/speaker line-out jack, which would give the external headphone amplifier a slightly cleaner audio signal, then hooking up the external amp to the Z's headphone jack.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

@purpleangel

It was discussed in the z series thread here and other forums that the soundstage and surround effect are different from the line outs.

It makes sense too if you think about it. The hrtf needed for headphones beside your ears would be different to those needed in front of you a good few feet.

@vague

It would be a decent setup however I'm not sure of the effect that amping the headphone out would have as its already amped.


----------



## PurpleAngel

djinferno806 said:


> @purpleangel
> 
> It was discussed in the z series thread here and other forums that the sound stage and surround effect are different from the line outs.
> 
> It makes sense too if you think about it. The hrtf needed for headphones beside your ears would be different to those needed in front of you a good few feet.


 
 The Titanium HD can send CMSS-3D headphone surround sound thru it's front speaker jacks (RCA).
 So was not sure if that feature was carried over the Z cards?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I tried and it doesn't sound the same through the line out in the z at all. Directionality isn't the same from what I could tell.

However its not easy to tell what its supposed to do since sbx surround seems to be a feature for both speakers and headphones. Its not labelled like cmss3d headphones. Which sucks for the consumer.


----------



## Flumphy

Im deciding between these two:
  

Asus Xonar U7: http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/340645/asus-xonar-u7.html
Creative SoundBlaster X-Fi HD: http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/273674/creative-soundblaster-x-fi-hd.html
  
 Asus has Dolby Home Theater v4.
 Creative has THX TruStudio Pro.
  
 I hear good thing about Dolby, but it also has some weird 'room' effect? 
 Does the Dolby sound a bit muddy or is it as clear as the THX?
 How good is the surround on THX?
  
 Which one offers the best overal sound quality?
  
 It will be used with an open headphone for competitive fps.
  
 Greetings,


----------



## Merzbro

Hey I don't know if any of you guys watched the AMD GPU conference, but they announced that their new cards will support "AstoundSound" on a hardware level.
  
 Never heard of this tech before but the demos sound pretty great.
  
 http://astoundsound.net/technology.php


----------



## SniperCzar

Oh snap!

 AMD just brought back HRTF-based PC sound processing!

 Skip to ~4:30 when they start talking about TrueAudio - http://anandtech.com/show/7368/amd-gpu-product-showcase-live-blog

 More news as it breaks...

 EDIT: Beat by 25 seconds D:


----------



## xero404

Pretty happy that they announced that. The Presenters were so terrible though.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Thief 4 will be using TrueAudio.


----------



## xero404

if its anything like the last theif games it'll sound amazing.


----------



## SniperCzar

First details and hands-on impressions - http://anandtech.com/show/7370/amd-announces-trueaudio-technology-for-upcoming-gpus


----------



## PurpleAngel

flumphy said:


> I'm deciding between these two:
> 
> 
> Asus Xonar U7: http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/340645/asus-xonar-u7.html
> ...


 
 I'm not really knowledge enough about FPS to recommend one over the other, but you might try comparing other features of the Asus vs Creative, some other feature might be come the deciding factor.


----------



## LB Felipe

If there is no a PCIe slot for a sound card like the Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD or Sound Blaster ZxR, the Sound Blaster X-Fi HD (external USB) might be enough in terms of effects on FPS games?
  
 What are the drawbacks to using it instead of those aforementioned PCIe versions?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

sniperczar said:


> Oh snap!
> 
> 
> AMD just brought back HRTF-based PC sound processing!
> ...




Lol i think you meant 3D coordinate based  HRTF?  Like directsound3d or OpenAL?  HRTF algorithms never went anywhere, they were just made from premixed signals.  Dolby Headphones, CMSS3D(fed from 5.1), SBX surround are examples of  these.


But ya, I am excited for this but at the same time as an Nvidia user, Im not 

Question is, will this be useable from lets say my sound blaster zxr's headphone port?  Or only through motherboard jacks and USB devices?  The only way I can see this work through anything would be to do what RAZER does with its surround and creates a "virtual" sound devices in your control panel. 

So I get this correctly, AstoundSound is the technology behind AMD's TruAudio right?

P.S. Coincidence given AMD hardware and a dedicated spu in the Xbox one? On one hand Microsoft usually use their own API(XAUDIO updated version) but on the other hand it just seems so coincidental.

*UPDATE:*

Well the AstoundSound guy mentioned this will be available for windows and next gen consoles as well.

So seems that Xbox one will indeed feature this.

My theory is the new xaudio api for the console will allow hardware acceleration and 3d coordinates and its main method of HRTF will be astound sound.


----------



## benbenkr

And the weird coincidence is that the PS4 doesn't have anything similar to TrueAudio or the Xbox One's hardware audio...
  

  
 Hmmm. As far as the ACP sounds, it's just a process that handles the audio to either the CPU or GPU. But has no hardware to do any sort of DSPs through it,  they will have to rely on a game engine (which means again, through wwise or fmod then) to do it.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Funny thing is, I've been thinking about GPU-processed audio ever since GPGPU designs started becoming a reality about six years ago. I mean, if they can trace rays of light, how about tracing waves of sound like Aureal did in the late 1990s?
  
 However, if it's exclusive to ATI/AMD, that's going to be a problem. Vendor-specific graphics card tech rarely sees much adoption, like ATI's old TRUFORM tessellation tech back in the Radeon 8500 days. NVIDIA's PhysX is a strange exception, possibly because it can still run on the CPU, albeit inefficiently and at reduced detail.


----------



## benbenkr

You wouldn't think Nvidia would have something up their sleeves in regards to hardware audio on their cards?
  
 But unlike TRUFORM and the more recent TressFX, audio is an essential part to a gaming experience. Both TRUFORM and TressFX wasn't, it was just an addition but wasn't an essential part to game design.
 Developers should see the need in supporting TrueAudio because since consoles do have something similar as well, then there's no common denominator anymore — though there needs to be more info on the PS4's audio capabilities, otherwise we're still back to square one again. Nvidia users (me included) might feel left out, but let's see how the green camp turns it way around it.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

To be honest I'm surprised by AMD last few months. They are just on a roll. Frame pacing, an increase in betas and more Gaming evolved titles than ever. Now gou accelerated audio... I'm a big time Nvidia fan but I have to admit they are lagging behind lately in innovations. TXAA is the only thing nvidia has done recently... And surprise surprise, it blows.

The real question is, what does Microsoft have to benefit from including true audio in their console? Most people still use tv/speaker audio. Not only that but its not like you can use whatever headphones you want. No jack.

So is this gonna be sent out by optical? USB? Will there be some USB control box we have to buy?

So many questions still.


----------



## benbenkr

djinferno806 said:


> Lol i think you meant 3D coordinate based  HRTF?  Like directsound3d or OpenAL?  HRTF algorithms never went anywhere, they were just made from premixed signals.  Dolby Headphones, CMSS3D(fed from 5.1), SBX surround are examples of  these.
> 
> 
> But ya, I am excited for this but at the same time as an Nvidia user, Im not
> ...


 
  
 @bolded
 Regarding this...
  


> It bears mentioning that AMD’s audio DSP is not part of a stand-alone audio card, rather it’s a dedicated processor created so that developers can take advantage of the hardware to process their audio, and then passing that back to the sound card for presentation.
> 
> This means that the audio DSP can be utilized regardless of the audio output method used – speakers, headphones, TVs via HDMI, etc
> 
> ...


 
  
 So yeah, whatever your soundcard is the audio that has been processed on the GPU will still be passed to your soundcard regardless.
 In theory, it'll work with external DACs too since all that was passed through is the processed info onto the DAC.


----------



## Fegefeuer

namelesspfg said:


> Funny thing is, I've been thinking about GPU-processed audio ever since GPGPU designs started becoming a reality about six years ago. I mean, if they can trace rays of light, how about tracing waves of sound like Aureal did in the late 1990s?
> 
> However, if it's exclusive to ATI/AMD, that's going to be a problem. Vendor-specific graphics card tech rarely sees much adoption, like ATI's old TRUFORM tessellation tech back in the Radeon 8500 days. NVIDIA's PhysX is a strange exception, possibly because it can still run on the CPU, albeit inefficiently and at reduced detail.


 
  
 Remember that AMD has basically both next-gen consoles in its pockets in terms of hardware infrastructure and direct access. With AMD Mantle it will deliver a similar approach to consoles. They're on a very very good position in the future while NVIDIA is busy being salty about lost console deals. I expect a good chunk of AMD in the future graphics card market. 
  
 Edit: Finally we get something we've been waiting for all these years and it's a giant like AMD, not Creative or anyone else.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya but at least creative isn't making you chose between your preferred video card or hardware hrtf... I really hope this isn't the case.


Some more info,


So TrueAudio won't work unless its coded into the games audio engine either from beginning or patched in later. And its not its own API , its a plugin for wwise and Fmod to use hardware accelerated 3D sound. It will most likely use the windows 8 WASAPI and perform direct hardware calls bypassing the mixer. So its logical to assume no TrueAudio for windows 7 as no hardware sound support. Although they didn't mention this so who knows for sure.


----------



## Fegefeuer

> The advantages of utilizing the DSP are fairly straightforward. Simple audio calculations are cheap, and even simple 3D effects such as panning and precomputed reverb can be done similarly cheaply, but real-time reflections, reverb, and 3D transformations are expensive. Running the calculations to provide 3D audio over headphones and 2.1 speakers, or phantom speakers and above/below audio positioning in 5.1 setups is all very expensive. And for these reasons these effects aren’t used in current generation games. These are the kinds of effects AMD wants to bring (back) to PC gaming.


 
  


> “We focus on 3D audio, but to bring professional grade audio to the industry requires processing horsepower,” he said. He said AMD’s TrueAudio technology is finally making it possible to deliver professional grade audio in games.


 
  
 Sample: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKnhcsRTNME&hd=1


----------



## DJINFERNO806

So it seems from the AMD conference that they will include a DSP either on the die itself or a separate DSP chip elsewhere on the PCB.

I'm leaning towards on die just due to less latency. However I wouldn't be surprised if it were separate due to thermal reasons. 

Now my other question is will the GPU itself do calculations or will this be all done on the DSP? Or both? GPU -> DSP for remainder of smaller fx to be added.

Does anyone know what where the current HD audio codec is on the gpu's? Maybe it will be added to this.


----------



## genclaymore

AMD uses Realtek codecs while Nvidia uses Intel Codecs.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya but is it on die or is it on the PCB somewhere else?


----------



## genclaymore

It's on the PCB


----------



## DJINFERNO806

OK thanks. I figure they would replace that HD audio chip with their dsp which does basic digital audio and the astound sound DSP.


----------



## Prava

I'm interested in trying some Dolby stuff with my collection of cans. The thing is I already own an Objective 2.
  
Question:
  
 Is the Asus U7 able to deliver Dolby Headphone through line out? I know for a fact that the thing won't be able to power many of my cans. So, I'll use it as a DAC for games, and thus I'll plug it into my Objective 2.
  
 Of course, if the thing won't do any Dolby stuff through line out... can I use just the headphone jack as a line out?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## pietcux

I am facing the problem, that with my U7 the DOLBY effects completely quit working. So it does not make a difference if I turn DOLBY on or off. But I think you need to use the headphone out to get a DOLBY signal to the O2. Since the U7 delivers a very clean signal there, you should be satisfied with the result.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

The U3 is cheaper and does Dolby through the spdif out. Granted, you'll need an Spdif dac to hook up to the O2 (cheapest being the Fiio D03k).

I assumed the U7 would also have an spdif out that could retain Dolby. If it does, I'd just keep the U7 and order something like the Fiio D03k for a cheap spdif dac that will feed the signal to the O2).

Though I'm assuming you need an analog line out (which makes sense that it wouldn't do Dolby, as Line Out to two channel should never be touched by any software. Pre-amp out however is a different story.)


----------



## pietcux

I need to correct myself. I uninstalled the latest driver Xonar_U7_0_11_17. With this driver all DOLBY settings where not affecting the signal at under Windows 7 64. Then I reinstalled the Xonar_U7_0_11_15_Win7 and all was back up and running. Now I have Dolby Headphone / DOLBY virtual Speaker also @ the line out stereo port. So you can choose, either get the Dolby signal out of the line out or the headphone out. And you can set the sample rate up to 192KHz/24 bit. That is accompanied by a very good signal quality. I put the FIIO E12 on the line out and this sounds very good. So your O2 will be a perfect match.


----------



## PurpleAngel

prava said:


> I'm interested in trying some Dolby stuff with my collection of cans. The thing is I already own an Objective 2.
> Question:
> Is the Asus U7 able to deliver Dolby Headphone through line out? I know for a fact that the thing won't be able to power many of my cans. So, I'll use it as a DAC for games, and thus I'll plug it into my Objective 2.
> Of course, if the thing won't do any Dolby stuff through line out... can I use just the headphone jack as a line out?


 
 I've never used the U7.
 The U7 appears to use the same head amp as the Xonar DG/DGX.
 You should be able to plug a external headphone amplifier (O2) into the headphone jack of the U7 and plug a headphone into the O2
 and get Headphone Surround Sound that is processed by the U7.
 Just use the lowest gain setting on the U7, technically it's double amping, but the U7's head amp is not that powerful in the first place, chances are the U7's amp will not affect the audio quality in a noticeable way.


----------



## PurpleAngel

mad lust envy said:


> The U3 is cheaper and does Dolby through the S/PDIF out. Granted, you'll need an S/PDIF DAC to hook up to the O2 (cheapest being the Fiio D03k).
> 
> I assumed the U7 would also have an S/PDIF out that could retain Dolby. If it does, I'd just keep the U7 and order something like the Fiio D03k for a cheap S/PDIF DAC that will feed the signal to the O2).
> Though I'm assuming you need an analog line out (which makes sense that it wouldn't do Dolby, as Line Out to two channel should never be touched by any software. Pre-amp out however is a different story.)


 
 I believe the U7 uses the CS4398 DAC chip, so I would assume that using the U7's headphone output as a line-out would still make better audio quality then using a Fiio E03D.


----------



## pietcux

But you might find out that the headphone amp of the U7 is powerfull enough to give you all you need for gaming and don't really need the O2 so much.


----------



## Sirslicey

Quick question:
  
 I use a pair of AD700's. I place competitive gaming in the highest regard and I'm not sure if the Sound Blaster Z is better than the X-Fi Titanium HD or not. I seem to have mixed reviews on which has best headphone surround, and perhaps the HD has better actual sound quality? I would also like to know if an external DAC/Amp would be necessary. I'm relatively on a budget, but if it's worth the cash, then it's worth it to me.
  
 Hopefully someone can clear that up.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The HD would have better sq in terms of the headphone outs. In terms of line outs I think its negligible. 

And with regards to surround, I think its majority preference. For newer games everything uses premixed 5.1 so there is no cmss3d advantage here. Listen to some YouTube videos and see for yourself. 

I don't think you need an external DAC but I'm not sure if the ad700 needs an amp badly since the HD doesn't have one built in.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Every single pre-mixed headphone surround has been a massive failure compared to external processors like Dolby Headphone and THX Tru Studio.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya that's debatable...

To me sbx is less artificial sounding than DH and more accurate than thx from the recon cards.


----------



## Fegefeuer

When did you listen to SBX and compare, MLE?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

A few weeks ago. Some demos. Hated it.

No sense of rear cues whatsoever. If it can't do rear positional cues even marginally better than stereo, it's useless to me.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Which demos? I got asked a lot about my SBX demos for instance (ME) and people confuse Software OpenAL with SBX, actually most videos that compare the new Creative cards with the X-Fi generation do it via OpenAL and there's no SBX involved.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

No idea what MLE is but I had an stx before my zxr. So I did some comparisons. Also a friend of mine has the recom3d USB and I did some listening on that.

Edit: just saw the "external processors" line. Do you mean like separate dsp chips from an avr or something?


----------



## Fegefeuer

djinferno806 said:


> No idea what MLE is


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

fegefeuer said:


> Which demos? I got asked a lot about my SBX demos for instance (ME) and people confuse Software OpenAL with SBX, actually most videos that compare the new Creative cards with the X-Fi generation do it via OpenAL and there's no SBX involved.




Some online demo, I don't remember the link. You download it. Like a free to try program.

SBX sounds good front a left, front, right positional cue, but the rears sounded too much like the fronts. You can have the best left/center/front in the world, but if the rears don't like like they're behind you... may as well stick to stereo.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

fegefeuer said:


> :evil:




?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Come on, man.

MLE

*M*ad *L*ust *E*nvy


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Lol listen here its 4 am and im tired. But thanks for clearing that mystery up.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Lol, I didn't wanna keep you entertaining Feg.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Damn it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Anyway,
  
 I'm trying to get a used Xonar D2 to record some DHP demos (PCI, because is easier to place and digital coaxial out so I don't have to change the optical cable into my DAC). Can't be bothered adding CMSS though as the installation between different creative cards is quite the hassle.
  
 The worst thing of this idea though is the youtube compression that noticably worsens the sq, imaging. At least it's better than nothing.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

On another note I tend to take those YouTube videos comparing surround modes with a grain of salt. Only due to the compression of audio and such. Whenever possible I like to compare them personally.

To me dh sounded like the rear sounds were just quieter instead of actually virtualized behind me using different timing/frequency of the sounds themselves. That was using my stx. Imho.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I would happily upload comparisons on another platform if it delivers more than 192kbit


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well it would be good however don't go out of your way to upload. Is there somewhere you can just post the video files directly? Like maybe Google drive or Google docs?


----------



## Evshrug

Or Dropbox?


----------



## PurpleAngel

sirslicey said:


> I use a pair of AD700's. I place competitive gaming in the highest regard and I'm not sure if the Sound Blaster Z is better than the X-Fi Titanium HD or not. I seem to have mixed reviews on which has best headphone surround, and perhaps the HD has better actual sound quality? I would also like to know if an external DAC/Amp would be necessary. I'm relatively on a budget, but if it's worth the cash, then it's worth it to me.


 
 Are you currently using the T-HD (Titanium HD) or using on-board audio and looking to add the T-HD or SB-Z (Sound Blaster Z)
 If your into older games (EAX 5.0) then the T-HD should be better.
 What is your budget?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

fegefeuer said:


> When did you listen to SBX and compare, MLE?




I have to apologize to everybody. I mistook the SBX for that Razer surround.

I could've SWORN I heard SBX somewhere though.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

That makes more sense... I couldn't understand why you didn't hear the rear sounds so distinctly. They are so prominent.

I tried Razer surround for 2 minutes and never touched it again. It destroyed sq so much. I don't know why either. Must be resampling?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Any way I can hear a demo of SBX? Not talking mislabeled binaural youtube vids.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BxO9cd-sYA
  
 This is the best video I could find that portrays SBX and its positioning in space.  Only thing is there is no 67% default setting used.  Only 30% or 100%  At 100% sounds tend to be more spacious but less accurate if that makes sense?
  
 It also shows it against a whole variety of other HRTF methods out there.
  
 Play close attention to the fountain test in the beginning, most of the accuracy will show itself there as its a higher(relative to all the explosions and effects) frequency sound with more direction.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Holy crap, that DH-1 demo was TERRIBLE, and not how DH-1 sounds, AT ALL. That honestly sounds like DH-4, if such a thing existed. Seriously not a good example of DH-1.... AT ALL. Closer to DH-3 than anything (which IS a reverb mess).

Battlefield 3? WORST GAME TO DEMO.

I have to hand it to SBX, it does sound pretty good at 30%, and I could see myself using it without issues. Of course, I'd prefer to do my own testing.

Razer surround sounds as bad as I remembered.

CMSS-3D on the fountain test sounds better than the other CMSS-3D tests. Actually, they all did fairly well in the fountain test, and all failed when on the other tests. BF3 is just bad...

Looks like I may have been too harsh on CMSS-3D, though I blame it on the horrible vids that don't showcase it well, at all.

Perhaps one day I'll have some USB soundcards to tests CMSS-3D, SBX, and whatnot. I know I'm happy with both DH and THX Tru Studio (for the most part).


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya I think cmss3d is good for positioning and I would.like it better however in my experience it always affected the eq too much especially in the high end. Muted low frequency sounds too often for it to be "enjoyable". I like explosions and deep effects as it makes games more fun.


----------



## Fegefeuer

CMSS-3D lowers the bass and ups the highs which also helps accuracy. If you EQ SBX enough you get the same effect, however CMSS-3Ds filters are quite aggressive and drag the quality down in every way that it gets a certain metallic or tin can effect. THX harms the SQ much lesser but it's imaging isn't "geometric" or spheric so it never became an alternative, it was rather weird and incohorent. 
  
 SBX is basically a hybrid of THX TSP and CMSS-3D as in preserving signal quality much better and at the same time not having that strange corridor effect of THX and allowing the user to customize its virtualization. I had a year of intensive DHP with the STX, switched back to CMSS-3D (Titanium HD with THX TSP option as well) with a V200 amp and then went over to SBX and I am very happy even though I miss the legacy strength of the X-Fi series. That's the beauty of SBX. Not having the hall effect of DHP and the signal quality of THX together with cohorent imaging. 
 I was looking forward to an external device for consoles but somehow Creative didn't deliver and brought something for Notebooks. 
  
 Oh, and I agree with BF3 not being the best. It's certainly among the best in recordings. The guy who's Xonar D2 I am looking for hasn't replied yet. I'd love to do some recordings of a few games.


----------



## Flumphy

What setting should I use on the headphone slider for Surround virtualiser in Dolby Home Theater 4 (Xonar U7).
  
 I mean is there a sweet spot for competitive fps?
  
  
 Greetings,


----------



## pietcux

I use the standard gaming preset. If the bass is to much with your cans you can lower it a bit with the equalizer. Btw. which cans do you use for gaming. I take the AKG K702.


----------



## Flumphy

pietcux said:


> I use the standard gaming preset. If the bass is to much with your cans you can lower it a bit with the equalizer. Btw. which cans do you use for gaming. I take the AKG K702.


 
  
 I have Superlux 668B, these are my settings right now (virtual surround off):

  
  
 But I'm wondering what the best settings are for virtual surround, because its a slider and not only an on/off option...
  
 Greetings,


----------



## pietcux

Now you have only Stereo. You disabled Dolby headphone completely. The slider lets you select the roomsize. Please turn the virtual surround back on.


----------



## Flumphy

pietcux said:


> Now you have only Stereo. You diisabled Dolby headphone completely. The slider lets you select the roomsize.


 
  
 Roomsize? I did not know that. So when turning it on the best option is to put the slider on 100%?
 At least for competition?
  
 Greetings,


----------



## pietcux

Vitual surround for headphone is Dolby Headphone.


----------



## pietcux

No, it seems to be much better with the slider to the left. The righmost position is meant for movies or live concerts. And I would not kastrate the bass like you did. It sounds very lifeless then.


----------



## Flumphy

pietcux said:


> No, it seems to be much better with the slider to the left. The righmost position is meant for movies or live concerts. And I would not kastrate the bass like you did. It sounds very lifeless then.


 
  
 Isn't the headphone option in Dolby Home Theater the same as Dolby Headphone?
 I'll try to add some bass. The reason because I do this is when an explosion happens I can't hear many other sounds. 
 At my competition level there is no fun needed in the sound.
  
 So this should do the trick? (for surround)

  
  
 Greetings and thanks for helping me


----------



## pietcux

Yes, and now that you got it, which game do you play?


----------



## Flumphy

pietcux said:


> Yes, and now that you got it, which game do you play?


 
  
 Cod Black Ops II,
  
 Competition is not very active at the moment, I hope it gets better with Ghosts.


----------



## pietcux

Same here! You are in Holland, right? I actually played Black Ops 1 two days ago. Got a nice Polish sever. Played 4 maps and it was great. I had the preorder pack for Ghost in my hands today. We will meet there I think. But I am 53 years old and not the fastest anymore so I need to camp a lot...... Got kicked from Black Ops 1 a lot because of camping, using claymore... LOL


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I assume the surrou d slider at around halfway is the rough equivalent to Dolby Headphone 2, which is the best compromise.


----------



## Sirslicey

purpleangel said:


> Are you currently using the T-HD (Titanium HD) or using on-board audio and looking to add the T-HD or SB-Z (Sound Blaster Z)
> If your into older games (EAX 5.0) then the T-HD should be better.
> What is your budget?


 
 I am currently using on-board audio and am looking for a sound card best suited for competitive FPS gaming. I'm into older games, sure, but if it's better in newer games, then that's really what matters. My budget really is whatever, but I'm not spending more than $150-ish give or take unless it's truly worth it. I don't care too much about music or movies, but it's a nice bonus.
  
 Edit: I was also looking at the Essence STX but I don't think Dolby HP would be better than CMSS-3D or SBX Surround. Still not sure though. Maybe it would be better with EQ tweaks?


----------



## PurpleAngel

sirslicey said:


> I am currently using on-board audio and am looking for a sound card best suited for competitive FPS gaming. I'm into older games, sure, but if it's better in newer games, then that's really what matters. My budget really is whatever, but I'm not spending more than $150-ish give or take unless it's truly worth it. I don't care too much about music or movies, but it's a nice bonus.
> 
> Edit: I was also looking at the Essence STX but I don't think Dolby HP would be better than CMSS-3D or SBX Surround. Still not sure though. Maybe it would be better with EQ tweaks?


 
 Creative Sound Blaster Z (SB1500), $95, should do what your looking for.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ I second that. Great value for the price. Relatively easy setup for virtual surround and gaming.

It can still play older games with openal either natively or through alchemy. I don't have issues with my zxr. Even without hardware based openal.


----------



## Skipshrike

The Z is easy to use and provides an excellent (gaming) audio experience. It also allows you to modify your voice output to sound like a robot. Use this power wisely.


----------



## TSTY

Hi guys, I'm sorry if this question has been answered before, but I couldn't find anything regarding it
  
 In my current setup, I have:
 Titanium HD mini-toslink out > Zero DAC > Matrix M-stage > K702 annis
  
 now if i want to try out the SBX Pro Studio in the Z series,
 is it enough for me to just get the Z card? since i already have an external DAC and AMP. Or should i go for the Zxr?
  
 now before anyone calls me out for being stupid, I would like to point out on the Newegg pages for the cards, it says:
"With external DACs delivering 124dB SNR" for the Zxr card, and
"With external DAC’s delivering 116dB SNR" for the Z card
  
 What does this mean? What does signal-to-noise ratio mean? does the signal-to-noise ratio apply to the DAC chip digital to analog converting process or does it apply to the digital binaural surround process?
 Does this mean my external DAC will perform better with Zxr than Z?

 Thank you


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

My logical assumption from everything I've learned on Head-fi is that the SNR occurs when a digital signal is being converted to analog, in which case, it won't matter since the conversion will be occuring through your Zero dac (with it's own SNR). After all, all the Zero DAC is being fed is 0s and 1s by those soundcards. Since you're using an external dac, going with the cheaper option would make the more logical choice, since you won't be using the 'better specs' of the higher end soundcard in your setup.

However, it's an assumption, so I hope someone with the know-how actually answer.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ ya that pretty much sums it up. Your external DAC will perform the same with either card. Same exact features. The digital binaural processing or SBX surround I take it your speaking of, is part of the digital signal on the way to your external DAC. Its all one big encoded bit stream that hits the DAC and gets converted and sent to your amp and to your headphones.

The external DAC it is talking about is from the DAC chip onboard the PCB but separate from the sound processor. The soundcore3d(sound processor) has its own DAC but is inferior. The "external" DAC is not external to the card itself. Hopefully that clears up that confusion.

Creative/retailers really need to smarten up about wording especially when the average consumer who isn't a tech expert will be confused.


----------



## PurpleAngel

tsty said:


> In my current setup, I have:
> Titanium HD mini-toslink out > Zero DAC > Matrix M-stage > K702 annis
> now if i want to try out the SBX Pro Studio in the Z series,
> is it enough for me to just get the Z card? since I already have an external DAC and AMP. Or should i go for the Zxr?
> ...


 
 I would think, with using an external (optical input) DAC & headphone amplifier, the Z and ZxR would be the same, could be that someone involved with Newegg's web pages does not know a lot about sound cards and made some guesses about "external" connections.
 Could be Newegg or Creative Labs is try to make the ZxR look better then the Z card by fudging the numbers.
  
 TSTY, if I was you, I would be buying the cheapest Z card ($80?) or at least the cheapest Z card with a mic (SB1500, $95).
  
 TSTY, have you tried hooking the Matrix M-Stage straight to the Titanium HD's RCA outputs?
 See how the sound quality compares?


----------



## TSTY

Thanks guys for the answers, I just ordered the Z card off amazon with the mic (kinda wanna try out the noise cancelling feature)
 Creative really need to clarify their products better, especially their binaural surround technology. To this day all we really know about their qualities come from youtube comparison videos.
  
 Quote:


purpleangel said:


> TSTY, have you tried hooking the Matrix M-Stage straight to the Titanium HD's RCA outputs?
> See how the sound quality compares?


 
 Unfortunately, I got my Titanium HD from a friend, who used its opamps for other things. I didn't care at the time since I knew I'm gonna hook it up to a dac.
 Will try it after my Z arrive.


----------



## PurpleAngel

tsty said:


> Unfortunately, I got my Titanium HD from a friend, who used its op-amps for other things. I didn't care at the time since I knew I'm gonna hook it up to a DAC.
> Will try it after my Z arrive.


 
 Wow, so your using a Titanium HD that does not have op-amps.
 Hopefully your friend did not charge you a lot for the Titanium HD?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

tsty said:


> Unfortunately, I got my Titanium HD from a friend, who used its opamps for other things. I didn't care at the time since I knew I'm gonna hook it up to a dac.
> Will try it after my Z arrive.




Wow never heard of someone using a tiHD with no opamps haha. 

Just to clarify the z doesn't have removable opamp sockets so you won't be able to swap them into your tiHD. If that's not what you meant then nvm lol.


----------



## TSTY

purpleangel said:


> Wow, so your using a Titanium HD that does not have op-amps.
> Hopefully your friend did not charge you a lot for the Titanium HD?


 
  
 Not at all, I think I paid $50 for it, pretty good price, considering that was quiet a few years ago.
  


djinferno806 said:


> Wow never heard of someone using a tiHD with no opamps haha.
> 
> Just to clarify the z doesn't have removable opamp sockets so you won't be able to swap them into your tiHD. If that's not what you meant then nvm lol.


 
  
 I meant i was gonna try plugging my amp directly into the sound card when my z arrives.
  
 Logic would dictate that my huge and (relatively) expensive dedicated external dac board should sound better than a dac chip on a sound card, but you never know.
  
 At any rate, I have 2 LT1364's in the Zero dac's preamp board i'm not using, but i'll need 2 more mono opamps to get the RCA out on TiHD to work. Might just drive down to the local radio shack and get 2, shouldn't be that expensive.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Lol I think it's safe to say it would blow the z out of the water. The specs make it out to be pretty beefy. One of the reviews from here stated that after burn in it gave out a nice tube amp like sound. Pretty awesome I'd say lol


----------



## AvroArrow

Since my previous post asking for equipment advice I have changed the hardware a bit.  My local headphone shop is still sold out of E09k amps and another shop had the Audioengine D1 on sale so I bought that instead.  It definitely sounds different than my Fiio E17 (not bad, just different) that I was using before but the more interesting thing is the volume adjustment... or lack of.  Here's my current setup:
  
 PC SPDIF OUT > SPDIF IN of Audioengine D1 > headphone OUT of Audioengine D1 > AKG K702.65
  
 Assuming 6 o'clock is 0 volume, 6:30 is still no sound, 7 to 7:30 is what I have it at, by the time I reach 8 o'clock, it's already too loud.  Is there supposed to be so little adjustment with the D1 and K702.65?  There's no gain adjustment on the D1 and I thought the headphone amp on the D1 was supposed to be kind of weak.  Or am I just confusing loud sound with properly driven sound?


----------



## TSTY

got this from the audioengine website


> The D1 includes a headphone amp based around the TI NE5532 low noise opamp. This headphone amp is able to provide low-impedance, high-fidelity audio to a wide range of headphones and supports headphones with impedances from 20 to 300ohms.


 
 Considering the annis are rated at 65ohms, i'd say the D1 should be more than enough to drive it.
 Having the the knob as such a low position probably means that there's too much gain.
 Sorry, not sure what to do if you can't adjust the gain.


----------



## PurpleAngel

avroarrow said:


> Since my previous post asking for equipment advice I have changed the hardware a bit.  My local headphone shop is still sold out of E09k amps and another shop had the Audioengine D1 on sale so I bought that instead.  It definitely sounds different than my Fiio E17 (not bad, just different) that I was using before but the more interesting thing is the volume adjustment... or lack of.  Here's my current setup:
> 
> PC SPDIF OUT > SPDIF IN of Audioengine D1 > headphone OUT of Audioengine D1 > AKG K702.65
> 
> Assuming 6 o'clock is 0 volume, 6:30 is still no sound, 7 to 7:30 is what I have it at, by the time I reach 8 o'clock, it's already too loud.  Is there supposed to be so little adjustment with the D1 and K702.65?  There's no gain adjustment on the D1 and I thought the headphone amp on the D1 was supposed to be kind of weak.  Or am I just confusing loud sound with properly driven sound?


 
 Contact Audioengine, see what there tech support has to say.
 Maybe it might help to turn down the volume a little, on the computer, with the windows volume control of the Creative labs volume control.


----------



## ShrikeT

Do you guys know if the SBX Pro Studio binaural effect passes through the optical out on the Z-series cards, the same way CMSS-3D does on the X-Fi series? My current setup consists of an X-Fi Xtreme gamer outputting to an Audioengine D1, and it sounds amazing. I honestly don't want to change sound cards, but I'll be getting a new motherboard soon that has no PCI slots so I'll have no choice. I just want to make sure that things will work more or less the same as they do now.


----------



## PurpleAngel

shriket said:


> Do you guys know if the SBX Pro Studio binaural effect passes through the optical out on the Z-series cards, the same way CMSS-3D does on the X-Fi series? My current setup consists of an X-Fi Xtreme gamer outputting to an Audioengine D1, and it sounds amazing. I honestly don't want to change sound cards, but I'll be getting a new motherboard soon that has no PCI slots so I'll have no choice. I just want to make sure that things will work more or less the same as they do now.


 
 The Z series sound cards can pass headphone surround sound thru the optical output.
 To save a few dollars, you can get a used Creative X-Fi Titanium (non-HD, PCI-E), sometimes for as little as $40, off eBay.
 Might also work to get the newer Sound blaster Z (SB1500) for $100 and plug your headphones straight into the Z and you may lke the audio quality enough that you no longer need to use the Audioengine D1.
 What headphones do you have?


----------



## ShrikeT

purpleangel said:


> The Z series sound cards can pass headphone surround sound thru the optical output.
> To save a few dollars, you can get a used Creative X-Fi Titanium (non-HD, PCI-E), sometimes for as little as $40, off eBay.
> Might also work to get the newer Sound blaster Z (SB1500) for $100 and plug your headphones straight into the Z and you may lke the audio quality enough that you no longer need to use the Audioengine D1.
> What headphones do you have?




AKG Q701s. They actually plug into a Matrix M-Stage that is being fed by the D1. Thanks for the info!


----------



## SaLX

I stumbled over this thread by benbenkr (a very good contributor here ) over on overclock.net: http://www.overclock.net/t/1392877/a-couple-questions-about-cmss-3d-dolby-headphone-and-similar-technologies (the other lively audio forum). I'm sure some of you may well have seen this, but that thread died a total death only 5 posts in. I sent him a quick PM here saying he should re-post on Head-Fi in this thread. Maybe he thought it a little self serving to do so: Anyway, in the public interest and seeing as this is the internet, I will post it here solely because information _is_ power.
  


> Having tested and used all 4 main VSS technologies extensively, here's my summarized view on them:
> 
> *note*
> Not all VSS technologies work well for all types of headphone, for example Dolby Headphones does not generally work too well with most closed headsets/headphones. This is due to the reverb DH has and having a closed headphones bounces the "echo" effect, leading to what many refer to as "like being in a tunnel".
> ...


----------



## PurpleAngel

salx said:


> I stumbled over this thread by benbenkr (a very good contributor here ) over on overclock.net: http://www.overclock.net/t/1392877/a-couple-questions-about-cmss-3d-dolby-headphone-and-similar-technologies (the other lively audio forum). I'm sure some of you may well have seen this, but that thread died a total death only 5 posts in. I sent him a quick PM here saying he should re-post on Head-Fi in this thread. Maybe he thought it a little self serving to do so: Anyway, in the public interest and seeing as this is the internet, I will post it here solely because information _is_ power.


 
 This thread over at overclock.net, did you see the avatar for the last poster, from a week ago?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I liked the demos of SBX, and I'm generally interested in the potential it has. It did seem to do what I liked about both DH and THX TS. Like DH without the extra reverb, and without THX's inconsistent panning.

So if Creative makes an updated Recon USB with SBX that also works for consoles, I may be super interested.

It was a few short demos though, so I'm not fully convinced on it just yet.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya it would be nice if the recon3d came with the updated sbx pro studio via some firmware update or what not. But sadly I don't think it ever will due to licensing. I'm sure creative signed a deal with thx to ship them with their studio only and breaking that would be costly to them.

And I don't think it sold well enough for them to consider another revision or model.


----------



## AvroArrow

tsty said:


> got this from the audioengine website
> Considering the annis are rated at 65ohms, i'd say the D1 should be more than enough to drive it.
> Having the the knob as such a low position probably means that there's too much gain.
> Sorry, not sure what to do if you can't adjust the gain.


 
  
 I know the Annies don't have a super high impedance, but from what I've read here, they (as well as the related Q/K70x variants) are apparently hard to drive properly if they are not fed enough mW.  Since the D1 is only USB powered (5V @ 200mA = ~1.0W), there's a limit to how much power it can output.  Their specs also don't list the mW output at a certain Ohm impedance like the Fiio specs do (my E17 can output 220mW @ 32 Ohm).  All they list is 2.0V RMS and 10 Ohm output impedance at the headphone jack.  I don't know how to calculate the mW output from that, or if it's even possible to calculate that from just those numbers.  I do know that my E17 isn't driving the Annies at max output.
  


purpleangel said:


> Contact Audioengine, see what there tech support has to say.
> Maybe it might help to turn down the volume a little, on the computer, with the windows volume control of the Creative labs volume control.


 
  
 Thanks for the advice.  I sent off an email to their tech support around midnight and got a reply in about 11 hours.  That's a pretty quick turn around time for a reply.  And it was a reply from a human because he complimented me on my choice of motherboard since he was using the same one at home.  =)  Anyway, his advice was the same as yours, turn down the Windows master volume to gain adjustment range on the volume knob.  When I tried this before (with both the D1 and E17), the volume slider just bounced back to 100%.  Since that was his recommendation also, I figured I try dragging it a few more times and on the 3rd or 4th try, the slider finally moved and stayed down.  Right now I have the Windows volume slider at 55% and I have full volume knob range, from 6 o'clock to 4 o'clock, where 4 o'clock is very loud instead of beyond deafening.  I'm actually just running the onboard Realtek ALC892 audio, not a Creative Labs card so I just have to adjust the master Windows volume slider.


----------



## genclaymore

djinferno806 said:


> Ya it would be nice if the recon3d came with the updated sbx pro studio via some firmware update or what not. But sadly I don't think it ever will due to licensing. I'm sure creative signed a deal with thx to ship them with their studio only and breaking that would be costly to them.
> 
> And I don't think it sold well enough for them to consider another revision or model.


 
 Actually there are Recons that come with SBX pro studio, Creative announced them like a couple of months ago as Recon R2 but they are Japan only for now.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Yes, but I hear they are USB only, so no console use.


----------



## Fegefeuer

yes, totally not for any console use. I was anticipating them when Evshrug hinted at Creative releasing a new external SBX device but in the end it turned out to be a dissapointment


----------



## DJINFERNO806

You guys talking about the omni that's only for USB?

http://www.creative.com/corporate/pressroom/?id=13374

Only recon r2 I heard about was the pcie card. Couldn't find any info on the USB update.

I guess by calling it r2 they can get away with dropping thx.


----------



## Merzbro

salx said:


> I stumbled over this thread by benbenkr (a very good contributor here ) over on overclock.net: http://www.overclock.net/t/1392877/a-couple-questions-about-cmss-3d-dolby-headphone-and-similar-technologies (the other lively audio forum). I'm sure some of you may well have seen this, but that thread died a total death only 5 posts in. I sent him a quick PM here saying he should re-post on Head-Fi in this thread. Maybe he thought it a little self serving to do so: Anyway, in the public interest and seeing as this is the internet, I will post it here solely because information _is_ power.


 
  
 Hmm, I'd been intending to get an X-Fi Titanium HD for use with my HD 598s and Schiit Magni but according to this that's not the best idea?
  
 Anyone else have experience with SBX?


----------



## PurpleAngel

merzbro said:


> Hmm, I'd been intending to get an X-Fi Titanium HD for use with my HD 598s and Schiit Magni but according to this that's not the best idea?
> 
> Anyone else have experience with SBX?


 

 Maybe invest in a Creative Titanium (non-HD),used $50,has the same CMSS-3D as the Titanium HD.
 You can try using the Titanium for awhile, sell it off at a later date, if it does not workout.
  
 Or sell off the Magni and get the Sound Blaster Z (SB1500), $98.


----------



## SaLX

purpleangel said:


> This thread over at overclock.net, did you see the avatar for the last poster, from a week ago?


 
 Dear gawd... Tacoboy


----------



## TSTY

Just received my Sound Blaster Z, initial impressions are good. Like the overclock.net thread said, SBX surround offers a good middle ground.
 I have tried both TiHD with CMSS-3D and Xonar with Dolby Headphones. It used to be the choice between the "hollow" sound of Dolby Headphones and the bright sound of CMSS-3D. I chose TiHD cus I find it easier to bear.
 SBX surround changes everything, no annoying hollow effects like I'm in the middle of an auditorium, and significant improvement over CMSS-3D's brightness (although a bit's still there). There is a drop in positional accuracy when compaired to CMSS-3D, but it's very small. Small enough for me to wonder if it's just because of CMSS-3D's brightness bringing out the details more.
 But you can judge all these yourself by listening to youtube comparison videos.
  
 I will carefully compare the Zero DAC vs whatever DAC chip they have on Z and do a review in case anyone's thinking about getting an external DAC for their sound card
 ...eventually, cus I just got mah POKEMANS!!!
 ...so yeah... I'll get around to it... sorry guys...


----------



## Nijs

Hey guys,
  
 Does anyone know if the razer surround sound would work with an external DAC?


----------



## genclaymore

Yea Nijs it does work with them, when you use the program the usb input of the external dac is shown and you can select it and use it.


----------



## SaLX

genclaymore said:


> Yea Nijs it does work with them, when you use the program the usb input of the external dac is shown and you can select it and use it.


 
 That's really good to know genclaymore. Kind of heard it before, but I've not seen it confirmed. So unless you're _really_ into your games you don't need a soundcard at all - just an external DAC + AMP. How is usability with it though? Is the Razer Surround software easy enough to toggle on and off - also movies too.. any good?


----------



## genclaymore

Yea its easy to turn on and off after you config it, just right click the task-bar icon and highlight Razer surround and a option will pop up to enable or disable.  I don't use it for movies since I watch all of my tv and movies from Comcast Xinfinity online and I recall comcast not using the 5.1/7.1 audio stream for their online watching service. It works good or bad depending on how your Calibrated it for your ears/headphones.  For me it does a good job in game's, I might get around to one day trying it with my blu ray movies, I wont be using it fully with the blu ray movies, because of my NFB15.32 having Full blu ray audio format support thru its usb input.
  
 One more thing you have to make a Razer Synapse account to log in and save you calibrate settings which is transferable to which ever computer you log in with the software.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I don't know what it is, if its razer's resampling engine when mixing the hrtf signal or what not but the sq takes a big drop. 

It makes sense though, you probably have to make compromises as there is no DSP or audio processor to do the calculations just the CPU. 

This was when outputting through my zxr to headphones.


----------



## genclaymore

The only thing it tends to do is make the sound pop some times, but most of the time it works like it should.


----------



## TheUnknown

I recently upgraded my computer from a built-in realtek to a Soundblaster Z card. I chose this card because of the built-in HP amplifier.
  
 After discovering this topic, I see that Nameless suggests steering away from this card and I am wondering if I made the wrong choice.  Are these bad cards? Should I return it and get a Xonar?
  
 To me they sound great, but not sure if there are other issues I have not run into yet.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I don't see why it is a bad card? If it does what you want then isn't it good for you?

IMHO the z series are superior to the xonars especially for gaming. And I don't think you'll get better sq without getting an stx or Phoebus. I don't think you have much of a choice for sound cards except maybe the x-fi series. But thats if you want older gaming support.

Is there something you don't like about the card?


----------



## TheUnknown

No, not at all. Some quirkyness in the control panel, but otherwise I think its fine.  Then again, I do not know much about computer audio and was concerned after reading the first post in this topic.


----------



## TheUnknown

Actually the only thing I don't like about the SB Live Control Panel is that I can't set volume settings for the headphone profile that are different from the speaker. Not sure if thats normal, though, for all cards.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya I think that's a normal thing. I guess because the volume you are controlling is actually tied to the windows mixers volume.

Regardless I think the OP hasn't updated that portion of the thread talking about the soundcore3d. That was written before the z cards came out I think. He probably went based on what the recon3d cards were(subpar) since they share the same processor.

The z has improved on those cards in many ways. Most importantly the sound quality since they have external analogue components to handle conversion and amping.

Really good DAC and decent low cost headphone amp.


----------



## PurpleAngel

theunknown said:


> I recently upgraded my computer from a built-in Realtek to a SoundBlaster Z card. I chose this card because of the built-in HP amplifier.
> 
> After discovering this topic, I see that Nameless suggests steering away from this card and I am wondering if I made the wrong choice.  Are these bad cards? Should I return it and get a Xonar?
> 
> To me they sound great, but not sure if there are other issues I have not run into yet.


 
 Did you remember to disable the motherboard's on-board (Realtek) audio? in the BIOS.
  
 The Z  (& Zx) sound card's headphone amplifier has a 22-Ohm impedance, which is not the best choice for lower impedance headphones. The ZxR and Essence STX & ST have a 10-Ohm impedance (better then 22)
 Where as some external headphone amplifiers have an impedance of less then 2-Ohms 
  
 But I'll let Nameless post his reasons.


----------



## NamelessPFG

DJINFERNO806 is right. I'm extrapolating my experience with the Recon3D USB, the only Sound Core3D device I have experience with, and making an inference that all Sound Core3D devices have similar strengths and weaknesses.

If anyone wants me to do a Z-series review, lend me a card for a few weeks. I'm gonna be building a new PC ovet the next few months anyway, so I'll have a shiny new testbed for this, free of bloated, years-old Windows kludginess.


----------



## Evshrug

RPGwizard apparently has a ZxR sitting in a drawer, he prefers his Realtek onboard with his AKG K271.


----------



## shrimants

ok so here's the question i end up with: How do you know which games will "support" multichannel sound and which wont? I have a full 5.1 system, and i can connect to the receiver either as 2.0 PCM, 5.1 PCM over HDMI, or 5.1 DTS over S/PDIF because of my sound card and hdmi audio. So how do know which game will do 5.1 and which games will do 2.0 (which I DONT want upmixed to 5.1). In other words, how do you tell the native sound format of the game?


----------



## TheUnknown

evshrug said:


> RPGwizard apparently has a ZxR sitting in a drawer, he prefers his Realtek onboard with his AKG K271.


 
  
 Any particular reason he prefers his onboard over the ZxR?  I honestly have not noticed a huge difference and only bought the SB Z as I thought I would need it to power my headphones properly. As it is, I don't think I needed them as I need to keep the volume on 7% when using the headphones or it will be too loud.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ check the sound blaster z thread in the last 2 pages. You'll find your answer there.


----------



## PurpleAngel

shrimants said:


> ok so here's the question i end up with: How do you know which games will "support" multichannel sound and which wont? I have a full 5.1 system, and i can connect to the receiver either as 2.0 PCM, 5.1 PCM over HDMI, or 5.1 DTS over S/PDIF because of my sound card and hdmi audio. So how do know which game will do 5.1 and which games will do 2.0 (which I DONT want upmixed to 5.1). In other words, how do you tell the native sound format of the game?


 

 Your Harman/Kardon AVR235 receiver does not comes with HDMI.


----------



## shrimants

purpleangel said:


> Your Harman/Kardon AVR235 receiver does not comes with HDMI.




Wouldn't be asking if I still had an avr235.


----------



## PurpleAngel

shrimants said:


> Wouldn't be asking if I still had an avr235.


 

 The Harman/Kardon AVR235 is the only one you have listed.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

shrimants said:


> ok so here's the question i end up with: How do you know which games will "support" multichannel sound and which wont? I have a full 5.1 system, and i can connect to the receiver either as 2.0 PCM, 5.1 PCM over HDMI, or 5.1 DTS over S/PDIF because of my sound card and hdmi audio. So how do know which game will do 5.1 and which games will do 2.0 (which I DONT want upmixed to 5.1). In other words, how do you tell the native sound format of the game?


 
 lol to answer your question,
  
 Usually you will find a surround option in the game.  Its safe to say 99% of all games that came out in the last 5-8 years(console generation) would have proper surround sound, aka 5.1/7.1.
 If you know the game audio engine or middle ware, you can usually know if you will get proper surround.  Some older games only did 2.0 unless you had a proper OpenAL capable card.  
  
 But generally the best way is to play the game and see if you get sound on all 5 speakers.  Windows wont "upmix" anything to 5.1 unless you enable special enhancements in whatever sound cards control panel(if it supports these).   And unless your AVR is set to upmix or do some other DSP, you will know if its 2.0 or 5.1.


----------



## shrimants

purpleangel said:


> The Harman/Kardon AVR235 is the only one you have listed.




Yeah, its been a while. I'll update that eventually, but ive got a bw 685 mains, pioneer fs52 rears, pioneer c22 center, klipsch rw12d subwoofer, and a marantz sr6007 now. Also o2+amb gamma 2 Full++ going to hd650. most of the gear i have listed is defunct.



djinferno806 said:


> lol to answer your question,
> 
> Usually you will find a surround option in the game.  Its safe to say 99% of all games that came out in the last 5-8 years(console generation) would have proper surround sound, aka 5.1/7.1.
> If you know the game audio engine or middle ware, you can usually know if you will get proper surround.  Some older games only did 2.0 unless you had a proper OpenAL capable card.
> ...




ok cool, thanks.I know that dts-connect will upmix regardless, so i wasnt sure if the hdmi 5.1 thing will also. I vastly prefer the HDMI one, as it requires no interaction from me. The receiver states that its getting a 3/2/.1 system but i ran some simple test files and windows is just padding the extra channels with a blank track, and the receiver's internal crossover is taking care of the rest.

i was mostly confused about non-positional sound games, like torchlight 2 or 2d type games. doesnt really make sense for them to have a 5.1 track, but who knows. maybe its there for ambience.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Do you mean it upmixes 2.0 to 5.1 but only plays the channels that actually have sounds or it does stereo surround or Dts Neo style matrxing?   It seems silly that an encoding method would do that.
  
 Ya I use my nvidia card to do HDMI 5.1 out to my AVR as well.  The channels that don't play a sound are being padded for sure but I think it has to do that for latency issues.  Meaning the way the audio stack has to mix all windows and apps sounds together into one big stream.  If it didn't keep the channels "going", you would hear a lot more pops and half sounds as the channels were turned on/off.  Can you imagine the crap show of the windows mixer trying to switch back and forth channels based on source.  That's why you have WASAPI exclusive mode.
  
 If I remember correctly, when I would play Torchlight 2, it was in 5.1, same as starcraft 2. The surround sound is done isometrically if that makes sense.


----------



## shrimants

with DTS-connect, i think if i play a 2.0 stream, it will automatically matrix itup to 5.1. with HDMI i thought it was doing that once upon a time but testing revealed that its a flash player "bug" that adobe says "works as expected". So i fixed it. So right now the only thing that will automatically upmix itself over HDMI is flashplayer, and theres a fix for that.


----------



## Mach-X

DTS Connect does not upmix anything. It will show on your avr as being 5.1, but channels with no audio will remain silent. Unless of course you have one of the 'neo' modes enabled, but that's different.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Kinda offtopic but Nvidia just demoed G-SYNC.
  
http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/introducing-nvidia-g-sync-revolutionary-ultra-smooth-stutter-free-gaming
  
 No more vsync, tearing ********. Imo the best display innovation in many many years, actually since displays know color.


----------



## shrimants

i like that they made the lower refresh rate 30hz, so you cant use it if your pc is TOO much of a scrub lol. Intel integrated graphics? gtfo.


----------



## Murder Mike

fegefeuer said:


> Kinda offtopic but Nvidia just demoed G-SYNC.
> 
> http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/introducing-nvidia-g-sync-revolutionary-ultra-smooth-stutter-free-gaming
> 
> No more vsync, tearing ********. Imo the best display innovation in many many years, actually since displays know color.


 
  
 Won't be cheap for a while I imagine. We'll see if it actually catches on. 
  
_G-Sync Module will be integrated into the top gaming monitors around the world_


----------



## genclaymore

Tho i doubt i would try to install this inside my korean 2560x1440 monitor, when it get to the point where it works on any monitor. I would never be able to ger the back cover back on or messed something up.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Lol ya that's all the xstars and qnixs need, more tinkering to kill more pixels or off center those cheap housings.


----------



## PurpleAngel

shrimants said:


> I like that they made the lower refresh rate 30hz, so you cant use it if your PC is TOO much of a scrub lol. Intel integrated graphics? gtfo.


 
 I would assume that you just use HDMI only and not bother with the S/PDIF optical connection, with S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) 2-channel audio should give you at least 24-bit/96Khz (or 24-bit/192Khz) of PCM (uncompressed) digital audio,
 Where as the S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) has to use compression, using DDL (Dolby Digital Live) or DTS-Connect, for a maxinum of 6-channel (5.1) of 24-bit/48Khz digital audio.
  
 Where as HDMI can carry 8-channel of PCM (7.1) 24-bit/192Khz digital audio (no compression).
  
 Just set the Marantz for "Direct" or "Pure Direct" this way the Marantz will not up-mix the audio.


----------



## NamelessPFG

fegefeuer said:


> Kinda offtopic but Nvidia just demoed G-SYNC.
> 
> http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/introducing-nvidia-g-sync-revolutionary-ultra-smooth-stutter-free-gaming
> 
> No more vsync, tearing ********. Imo the best display innovation in many many years, actually since displays know color.


 
  
 Well, this could be promising, especially if it leads to future flat-panel displays not having the usual refresh rate vs. image quality tradeoff.
  
 I'm still sticking with my Sony GDM-FW900 as long as it works, though.


----------



## Merzbro

So I've got my eyes on a new laptop, specifically the Acer Aspire S7-392 and I was thinking it would be nice to get surround sound from it for movies.
  
 It comes with Dolby Home Theater (presumably V4), so I guess I'd use that as a HRTF? Is it any good compared to a hardware implementation?


----------



## DarkWolf

I admit I have not read through a large portion of this thread, so sorry if any of my questions have been answered at some point. 
  
 I have an Auzentech Prelude 7.1 and am using coax SPDIF out to an Audio-GD NFB-10SE and then to Hi-FiMan HE-5LE phones, balanced. I am specifically interested in getting better positional audio in games. My big game right now is Mass Effect 3's multiplayer. I can confirm that the X-Fi's "advanced features" are not doing a whole lot through digital out. I have tried Dolby Live, but it only seems to do anything when I set windows to 48khz, and then it just makes awful noise. I have tried setting "What You Hear" to listen, and activating the speaker out to make the extra features work, and they do technically seem to work, but I get a lot of distortion for some reason. I have also tried using Alchemy with ME3, and it seemed to add some EAX effects, but they seemed heavy handed, and positional awareness actually went down because there were just too many wonky echos.
  
 I downloaded RightMark 3D sound that was mentioned on the first page. For whatever reason, it will only let me use Direct 3D Software weather I'm on SPDIF or speaker out. And weather i use digital, or listen through "What U Hear," the subjective positioning is really poor. Much worse then what I seem to get while actually gaming.
  
 The reason I'm posting before doing more research is that I just noticed that Newegg has the Creative Recon3D Fatality on sale for $90. If this is something I should jump on, then I don't want to miss it. I also noticed some talk a few pages ago about SBX something, and I don't know if my Prelude will do it at all. Any input would be great! I'm going to go do more reading about these new Creative cards..


----------



## PurpleAngel

darkwolf said:


> I have an Auzentech Prelude 7.1 and am using coax SPDIF out to an Audio-GD NFB-10SE and then to Hi-FiMan HE-5LE phones, balanced. I am specifically interested in getting better positional audio in games.
> 
> The reason I'm posting before doing more research is that I just noticed that Newegg has the Creative Recon3D Fatality on sale for $90. If this is something I should jump on, then I don't want to miss it. I also noticed some talk a few pages ago about SBX something, and I don't know if my Prelude will do it at all. Any input would be great! I'm going to go do more reading about these new Creative cards..


 
 I'm far from a PC gaming expert, but so far it seems the Sound Blaster Z is becoming the preferred gaming card. So maybe find the cheapest OEM Sound Blaster Z you can.


----------



## Evshrug

purpleangel said:


> I'm far from a PC gaming expert, but so far it seems the Sound Blaster Z is becoming the preferred gaming card. So maybe find the cheapest OEM Sound Blaster Z you can.


Dunno if this has gone stale, but I saw a Soundblaster Z (not OEM) on sale for $89 free shipping on Amazon. Almost got it myself, having a hard time buying stuff that I barely have time to enjoy.


----------



## NamelessPFG

darkwolf said:


> I admit I have not read through a large portion of this thread, so sorry if any of my questions have been answered at some point.
> 
> I have an Auzentech Prelude 7.1 and am using coax SPDIF out to an Audio-GD NFB-10SE and then to Hi-FiMan HE-5LE phones, balanced. I am specifically interested in getting better positional audio in games. My big game right now is Mass Effect 3's multiplayer. I can confirm that the X-Fi's "advanced features" are not doing a whole lot through digital out. I have tried Dolby Live, but it only seems to do anything when I set windows to 48khz, and then it just makes awful noise. I have tried setting "What You Hear" to listen, and activating the speaker out to make the extra features work, and they do technically seem to work, but I get a lot of distortion for some reason. I have also tried using Alchemy with ME3, and it seemed to add some EAX effects, but they seemed heavy handed, and positional awareness actually went down because there were just too many wonky echos.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Okay, here's how you need to set it up for S/PDIF output:
  

The "Speakers" output that corresponds to your analog output in the Windows sound control panel should ALWAYS be your default. Never use "SPDIF Out" as your default.
Set the speaker option to "Headphones". This is important, or else you won't get the proper CMSS-3D setting.
Make sure "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" is checked. It's buried under the window you get when you click the "Settings" button, in one of those tabs.
  
 "What U Hear" is NOT needed at all for this; you're probably thinking of the instructions for a USB DAC, not an S/PDIF one.
  
 Also important is that *RightMark 3DSound's positional accuracy test is DirectSound3D-based. You NEED ALchemy.* Place the dsound.dll and dsound.ini in the program directory, whether by the usual GUI or by copying the files from the directory of an ALchemy-configured game. (And really, all the GUI does is copy and paste that dsound.dll and dsound.ini while editing values in the dsound.ini.)


----------



## DarkWolf

So far, I've tried a little gaming with my Sennheiser HD590s plugged into the card and CMSS-3D headphone enabled. Didn't actually care for it. Apples and oranges between HD590 and HE-5LE though. I also tried that Razer Surround software I came across on some youtube demos.. On youtube, the new Creative SBX and Razer Surround seemed pretty promising. In practice, I couldn't it working right. Again, with no real front back directional cues at all.
  
 I did, just now, go back and set all outputs to 16-bit 48khz, and I stopped getting distortion through What U Hear, and I can run the CMSS-3D headphone surround test in the Creative control panel, and it's not bad. I am a little concerned about all these work around settings degrading quality, but one step at a time.
  
 I cannot find a setting anywhere for "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output."
  
 EDIT: I was wrong. Even with all output settings at 16/48, louder playback will clip and distort. If I listen to music in foobar and keep foobar's volume slider below half, it isn't really noticeable. If I turn foobar up and my amp down, it sounds like speakers with torn drivers or something. Might be good enough to give CMSS-3D one test run with the HE-5LE though, and just make sure game volume or whatever else is lower so it doesn't clip. I doubt I'm going to change my mind about though, it sounds pretty awful. Also, in all the demos I watched on youtube, loud sounds all seemed like they were happening in a large auditorium, not out doors as the case was most of the time.


----------



## DarkWolf

Ok. I've played a few games with my HE-5LE using CMSS-3D on headphone and What U Hear outputting to SPDIF. This sounds a lot better than the 590s, which really bring out the DSP's bright, thin sound signature. I have also gone back and played a few games without any DSP effects and just used SPDIF as my primary device. I feel that NOT using CMSS-3D gives the best positioning. With it, there is just too much junk noise from all the EAX effects to really hear what's going on. I also felt that sounds a little left or right of center were muddy, weather in front or behind. Without DSP, there aren't any holes or distortions in the positioning. I have a much better sense of distance without the ESP too. Again, that might be due to less junk noise from the EAX.
  
 I guess now the question is less, 'Should I buy a different card?' and more, 'Do have any use for my Prelude?' I wouldn't mind giving SBX a shot, but based on the youtube videos, I might still reach the same conclusions.


----------



## Evshrug

^I think you missed Nameless telling you that you don't need "What U Hear" on to get surround through optical (SPIDF). Before you give up on your investment, make sure your settings match Nameless' suggestions on the last page.

Just a suggestion.


----------



## shrimants

darkwolf said:


> Ok. I've played a few games with my HE-5LE using CMSS-3D on headphone and What U Hear outputting to SPDIF. This sounds a lot better than the 590s, which really bring out the DSP's bright, thin sound signature. I have also gone back and played a few games without any DSP effects and just used SPDIF as my primary device. I feel that NOT using CMSS-3D gives the best positioning. With it, there is just too much junk noise from all the EAX effects to really hear what's going on. I also felt that sounds a little left or right of center were muddy, weather in front or behind. Without DSP, there aren't any holes or distortions in the positioning. I have a much better sense of distance without the ESP too. Again, that might be due to less junk noise from the EAX.
> 
> I guess now the question is less, 'Should I buy a different card?' and more, 'Do have any use for my Prelude?' I wouldn't mind giving SBX a shot, but based on the youtube videos, I might still reach the same conclusions.




If a game was designed for multichannel, it will sound fantastic through multichannel. if a game was designed for stereo, thats the route to go. But if a game can do either, having a high end pair of headphones will almost yield better results with stereo than it will going through a whole ton of upmixing and virtualizatio DSP's. Those DSPs were not designed for high end cans. They were designed to make peoples' craptastic gaming headsets sound like they are worth more. Stereo though headphones (regardless of the game) and 5.1 through my system is how I end up doing things, and that seems to work the best in terms of sound quality and immersion.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ that's your opinion really. Some people like me can't stand gaming with just regular stereo. The separation drives me nuts. 

And while I agree certain DSP effects like bassboost, upmixing/matrixing and Crystalizer are stupid, I think a good hrtf mode helps a lot for those anti stereo people. 

So why can't you use sbx or cmss3d with high end cans?Its not like they are so bad that they ruin sq. If the eq is off that can always be fine tuned by you.

I think its important to note that its all about preference. So "yielding better results" is subjective. 

Note: The only exception to this I see is Razer surround which seems to actually give terrible sq once all the resampling and hrtf algorithms are applied. Most likely a compromise since it has to run in software on the CPU.


----------



## shrimants

djinferno806 said:


> ^ that's your opinion really. Some people like me can't stand gaming with just regular stereo. The separation drives me nuts.
> 
> And while I agree certain DSP effects like bassboost, upmixing/matrixing and Crystalizer are stupid, I think a good hrtf mode helps a lot for those anti stereo people.
> 
> ...




Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that virtualize sound is useless or anything. I'm saying that after being through those dsp, the sound ends up somewhat mangled so you get artifacts and distortion. Thats definitely not how it should be. I was simply pointing out that high end cans are not forgiving of dsp quality while low end cans end up benefitting more. On a personal preference level, I enjoy pure stereo for headphones. But thats just me. I think 3d sound definitely has its merits based on personal preference, headphone, sound card, and game.


----------



## DarkWolf

Respond to comments:
  
 Evshrug,
  
     I understood what Nameless said, but I had stated that I can't find any setting anywhere to output the stereo mix to digital without using What U Hear. Which is still true. It doesn't seem to be in any of Windows' or Creative's control panels. This maybe due to having an Auzentech card. I don't know for sure, but folks have been complaining that only the Creative branded cards natively run their DSP effects through digital out...
  
  
 shrimants and DJ,
  
     I actually felt that the sound quality degradation was lessened with my higher end cans. CMSS makes the sound bright and tinny, while my HE-5LE have good bass, slightly reduced upper mids, and give everything a very full-bodied sound.
    To use CMSS, my understanding is that I should tell windows and/or the game that I'm running the most speakers I can choose; 7.1 in this case. Then I should set the Creative controls to CMSS-3D Headphone and let the card mix all 7.1 channels into "3D Stereo." My testing has been limited to Mass Effect 3 which does not seem to have it's own option for speaker system and probably reads what I've told windows. Either way, CMSS is working when I set to speakers and listen to What U Hear with my SPDIF setup. And so far, I think it sucks. Weather the positioning itself is any more accurate or not, there's just too much other cheese going on to hear anything useful most of the time anyway. I suppose I could give it one more try and disable EAX effects and see what happens...


----------



## Mach-X

I don't believe that mass effect 3 even supports EAX...your problem lies elsewhere...


----------



## genclaymore

Mass effect 3 uses Xaudio2 thats why there are no eax or EFX effects. Lately UE3 games been using Xaudio2, some cases some of them had the old OpenaAL+EFX line in the code still to switch to it, but most lately doesn't and only have Xaudio2.


----------



## DarkWolf

Interesting info. I did a few more rounds with CMSS-3D and EAX disabled, and that really helps. Without all the cheesy reverb, I can hear what's going on. Compair to using no DSP, the sound sort of seems larger and more open, and I could maybe hear someone coming from farther sway. In a game like CS or Battlefield, and might give an advantage. On the other hand, it still sounds really bad. Everything is so shrill, it's just not pleasant.
  
 After switching back to straight SPDIF again, I have decided that no DSP still has sharper positioning on my system, and is especially better for telling exactly how close something is and where they are when they are close. In ME3, that is much more important than hearing someones footsteps a little farther sway. In fact, it may even be that I do not hear anything farther away with DSP, but everything just sounds farther away.
  
 I think at this point, I'm perfectly content to simply not use any of the X-Fi's "advanced features" for gaming. I will keep it in the back of my mind that I want to try out SBX at some point, but it isn't critical.
  
 Oh, about the stereo mix to digital out.. I googled it, and it seems to be under advanced features for newer, Creative cards I do not have.


----------



## Skipshrike

This will sound silly. But, I have my Windows volume slider down to about 4% and it still is loud. I currently have a Creative Sound Blaster Z--which has an AMP built in--but the problem existed before I installed the sound card. Previously I used a USB headset. I've checked all the Windows settings I could think of. Anyone have any ideas?


----------



## NamelessPFG

darkwolf said:


> Interesting info. I did a few more rounds with CMSS-3D and EAX disabled, and that really helps. Without all the cheesy reverb, I can hear what's going on. Compair to using no DSP, the sound sort of seems larger and more open, and I could maybe hear someone coming from farther sway. In a game like CS or Battlefield, and might give an advantage. On the other hand, it still sounds really bad. Everything is so shrill, it's just not pleasant.
> 
> After switching back to straight SPDIF again, I have decided that no DSP still has sharper positioning on my system, and is especially better for telling exactly how close something is and where they are when they are close. In ME3, that is much more important than hearing someones footsteps a little farther sway. In fact, it may even be that I do not hear anything farther away with DSP, but everything just sounds farther away.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If I have to, I'll move my X-Fi Prelude out of my 98/XP retrogaming box and back into my Q6600 system just to look for the option myself. I very distinctly recall it being there.
  
 Also, the usual advice on EAX is that you want it on, but at 0.0db volume on the slider so that EAX effects in games that use them are present and sound correct. It shouldn't have any effect outside of those titles, and if it pertains to room presets, it's the completely wrong sort of EAX and should be disabled. (The volume slider I speak of is only present in Game Mode, which as you would expect, is the mode you should be using for gaming.)
  
 There is a possibility that the effect just doesn't work for you like it should, or that the sound quality impact is too much for you to stand. But I have to be sure you're setting it up properly first, because it's not straightforward at all to set up. There's a reason I linked this in the guide.
  


skipshrike said:


> This will sound silly. But, I have my Windows volume slider down to about 4% and it still is loud. I currently have a Creative Sound Blaster Z--which has an AMP built in--but the problem existed before I installed the sound card. Previously I used a USB headset. I've checked all the Windows settings I could think of. Anyone have any ideas?


 
  
 This has been a problem since the PCIe generation of X-Fi cards. Plugging a set of headphones directly into the card will outright deafen you unless you turn it down all the way to 5%. Even then, it's still kind of medium-volume, and 4% or less volume is equivalent to mute.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ I don't believe that's a common problem of the z series. And it seems he had it before the z as well. 

What headset are you using skipshrike?


----------



## Skipshrike

djinferno806 said:


> ^ I don't believe that's a common problem of the z series. And it seems he had it before the z as well.
> 
> What headset are you using skipshrike?


 
 Philips Fidelio X1 and AKG K712 Pro.
  
 The USB headset, used previously, was a Corsair Vengeance 1700. (USB driver has been uninstalled)
  
 I can't remember if I had this problem before the 1700, or not. I have been able to mitigate it with an in-line volume control. However, it seems odd that I would have this volume problem with both the USB headset and the sound card. Even 4% seems super loud.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya that more likely sounds like an OS issue to me. Seems the windows mixer is setting the global digital gain too high. Try uninstalling all sound drivers even onboard and disabling it in bios. Use driver sweeper in safe mode too. And I mean no audio a drivers at all, even remove your sound cards. Get to the point where booting up yields no sound whatsoever and no sound devices are found in device manager. Then install just the z and see what happens.


----------



## Skipshrike

Creative's driver will take a bit to download. *Fingers crossed*


----------



## shrimants

Hey man, Asus xonar drivers download fast but half the time they ask you to "plug in or turn on the audio device".....which is plugged into a pcie x1 slot......

So yeah. Audio drivers need some serious work. Honestly I just stick to HDMI and dont really need my audio card anymore except for optical + dts-connect anymore in some fringe cases.


----------



## Skipshrike

I followed Ripley's sage advice: "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
  
Complete fresh install of entire system. The issue seems to have been resolved... I still have the volume at 6% because that's comfortable. However, it actually sounds like 6% volume. The windows noise, made when adjusting volume, can barely be heard if my opened-back headphones are off my head. That's a definite improvement!
  
Also, my OS is nice and trim now. Added bonus.
  
Update: I don't think anything changed. Next week I will test volume through the line-out and see how it compares to the headphone-out jack (the one with the amp).


----------



## Valken

...


----------



## darkknight2193

I just purchased my pair of K712s about two weeks ago.
 I'm now in search of a proper way to power these babies!
 As of today, I have just integrated sound from my computers motherboard. I would like to throw some more power to them to unveil what AKG has to offer.
 What would be a good choice for me at ,~$100, ~$200,~$400, and ~$600? I mostly play pc game, but don't want to sacrifice audio quality when listening to music, occasionally mixing my own house mixes, and watching films.


----------



## pox67

I am now having a couple of issues with my set up.
  
 I have Windows 8.
 X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) stereo out --> 5" monitor speakers (volume knob @15%)
 X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) optical  out --> Audioengine D1 DAC/AMP --> headphones.
  
 For starters the speakers are loud at 6% windows volume and cut out at 4%. Doesn't give me much range to play with, any ideas?
  
 I have installed Creative Alchemy to get EAX with an older game but even if I have the headphones set as default in Windows the sound still comes through the speakers, any ideas?
  
 In the Windows sound source picker the Creative Optical out is displayed as SB Optical What U Hear and doesn't allow me so set the speaker setup. Thus I can't set it to 7.1 to properly set up CMSS-3D.
  
 Any help greatly appreciated, I'll post in some screen shots later.


----------



## PurpleAngel

darkknight2193 said:


> I just purchased my pair of K712s about two weeks ago.
> I'm now in search of a proper way to power these babies!
> As of today, I have just integrated sound from my computers motherboard. I would like to throw some more power to them to unveil what AKG has to offer.
> What would be a good choice for me at ,~$100, ~$200,~$400, and ~$600? I mostly play pc game, but don't want to sacrifice audio quality when listening to music, occasionally mixing my own house mixes, and watching films.


 

 Audio-GD NFB-15.32 DAC/Amp, $255+ shipping (my total was $298).
 Dual WM8741 DAC chips and a headphone amplifier that easily drives my 600-Ohm headphones, the AKG K712 Pros are only 62-Ohms.
 Comes with USB and S/PDIF (optical & coaxial) inputs, so it can be used with the on-board audio or an internal sound card.
 Plus comes with a separate line-out for a (stereo) speaker amplifier hook up.
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB1532/NFB15.32EN.htm


----------



## pox67

pox67 said:


> I am now having a couple of issues with my set up.
> 
> I have Windows 8.
> X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) stereo out --> 5" monitor speakers (volume knob @15%)
> ...


 
  
 Loud volume is sorted as I think I had Headphones picked as speaker type - this gives a boost to volume.
  
 Below is are sound sources available: (I have disabled onboard realtek)

 Notice that Configure is greyed out, that is where you normally choose 7.1 for the headphones.
  
 After installing Alchemy and configuring a game when I have the Optical out selected (for headphones) this test will play through the speakers only. Very odd...

  
 I am so confused!
  
 Should Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output be ticked?


----------



## NamelessPFG

pox67 said:


> Loud volume is sorted as I think I had Headphones picked as speaker type - this gives a boost to volume.
> Below is are sound sources available: (I have disabled onboard realtek)
> 
> Notice that Configure is greyed out, that is where you normally choose 7.1 for the headphones.
> ...


 
  
 You've got it all wrong; not that I'm surprised, because Creative does make it VERY confusing!
  
 -Set your default audio device to "Speakers". NEVER use any form of SPDIF Out as a default audio device. I've never had audio output from any audio device that way, unless it was a DVD movie with a Dolby Digital/DTS track bitstreamed through the S/PDIF port.
  
 -You're set to "2/2.1 Speakers" in the X-Fi control panel, NOT "Headphones". You have to change that to get the proper CMSS-3D version and to keep Windows from setting your speaker output back to stereo instead of 5.1/7.1.
  
 -"Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" should be enabled if using the S/PDIF output. What this does is take the audio it's outputting over analog, through the "Speakers" playback device, and pipes it out over S/PDIF automatically without fuss, complete with CMSS-3D Headphone if enabled. I've tested it myself; analog and digital outputs with it enabled are pretty much identical.


----------



## Fegefeuer

PC True Audio, PS4 True Audio, Xbone's SHAPE similarly to use. Talk about REAL hardware accelerated audio explosion. The future can only be bright.
  
http://www.maximumpc.com/everything_you_wanted_know_about_amd%E2%80%99s_new_trueaudio_technology_2013
  
What is True Audio?
  


> In a nutshell, *TrueAudio is a return to the concept of hardware accelerated audio processing*, with AMD leveraging their position to put the necessary hardware on the GPU. *Hardware accelerated audio processing in the PC space essentially died with Windows Vista, which moved most of the Windows audio stack into software*. Previously the stack was significantly implemented through drivers and as such various elements could be offloaded onto the sound card itself, which in the case of 3D audio meant having the audio card process and transform DirectSound 3D calls as it saw fit. However with Vista hardware processing and hardware access to those APIs was stripped, and* combined with a general “good enough” mindset of software audio + Realtek audio codecs, the matter was essentially given up on.*
> 
> Now even with the loss of traditional hardware acceleration due to Vista, you can still do advanced 3D audio and other effects in software by having the game engine itself do the work. However this is generally not something that’s done, as game developers are hesitant to allocate valuable CPU time to audio and other effects that are difficult to demonstrate and sell. Further complicating this is of course the current generation consoles, which dedicate a relatively small portion of what are already pretty limited resources to audio processing. As a result the baseline for audio is at times an 8 year old console, or at best a conservative fraction of one CPU core.


 
  
  


> MPC: You guys are using GenAudio and McDSP. *GenAudio’s says AstoundSound modeling is based on how the brain reacts to sound rather than the older model of putting microphones into head dummies to create the algorithms*. GenAudio calls it HRBF. How is HRBF an improvement on Head Related Transfer Functions (HRTFs)?
> 
> AMD: [...] GenAudio’s BRTF is based on the way the brain actually interprets audio, as analyzed through EEG-fMRI and MEG data. Traditional HRTFs assume, as you implied, that your head is the same size and shape as the dummy head used to create the psychoacoustic model. But the critical failing of an HRTF is that nobody’s head is the same size or shape as the binaural dummy head, so you have to go deeper. Right into the brain. Learn how the brain itself receives and processes a 3D soundfield, and then you work back from there to create the algorithms that work on that level. *The GenAudio team has done that, and I’ve not met one person who hasn’t been blown away by the quality of their methods as demonstrated in Lichdom*.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I wonder if that means true binaural sound for gaming now?


----------



## Fegefeuer

Yes. In general it means much more complex algorithms, filters per voice/stream and true binaural audio. 
  
 As always the end result is also in the hands of the designer of course.


----------



## SaLX

So - how's this going to be work? A graphics card withToslink or just HDMI as the have now (a line out even !??). More than likely you'll need an external DAC - but I can't think of any DAC's with HDMI in unless it's an AV receiver. Bit confused as how they'll implement this.
  
 Edit* - ah.. you can keep your soundcard or usb headset whatever-- this does all the work before the data is sent to them.. much like windows does (like if you're not using foobar)
  


> *MPC: So a person could keep their existing discrete X-Fi/Xonar/Recon for the superior DACs/ADC, and switch off their effects to use TrueAudio but then switch them back for games that use OpenAL or don’t support TrueAudio?*
> 
> AMD: That’s 100 percent correct. We designed AMD TrueAudio in the manner that we did precisely because we know users have great audio hardware with high-quality OPAMPS that they don’t want or need to forfeit. Whatever audio device(s) a user has right now, that hardware is ready to go with AMD TrueAudio.


----------



## Fegefeuer

It works like it worked in all these years.
  
 The audio I/O of your computer's RAM sends data to either a codec like Azalia or any other playback device type like the USB of your DAC.


----------



## chicolom

> Originally Posted by *Fegefeuer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> _"But the critical failing of an HRTF is that nobody’s head is the same size or shape as the binaural dummy head, *so you have to go deeper. Right into the brain*. Learn how the brain itself receives and processes a 3D soundfield, and then you work back from there to create the algorithms that work on that level. "_


 
  
 Hmm....


----------



## pox67

namelesspfg said:


> You've got it all wrong; not that I'm surprised, because Creative does make it VERY confusing!
> 
> -Set your default audio device to "Speakers". NEVER use any form of SPDIF Out as a default audio device. I've never had audio output from any audio device that way, unless it was a DVD movie with a Dolby Digital/DTS track bitstreamed through the S/PDIF port.
> 
> ...


 
 Who the hell let Creative have the best hardware!
 All the necessary settings should be on the same page and not spread over a variety of settings pages that are sometimes obscure and don'e carry the same UI style. Ridiculous!
  
 Any way it is working now as you said NamelessPFG, thanks again!


----------



## shrimants

guys, i noticed something happening on 2 different computers now. maybe one of you has some insight into it.

Both me and my gf have Xonar DSX soundcards. Whenever we use an HDMI monitor (when we go to the basement to game on the TV, for example), the soundcard entirely fails to output via optical. It completely refuses to.

On my own PC, it seems to go away if I disable HDMI audio output. On hers, it seems to never allow audio output as long as HDMI is plugged in, regardless of what her video driver is set to for HDMI audio (enabled or disabled). In the basement, Ideally I'd like to just connect via an optical cable and use DTS-connect to mix 5.1 PCM -> DTS and send it to the Z5500 system we have there, but ive been just using analog.

For my own PC it doesnt matter anymore as I use HDMI for everything. VLC doesnt want to bitstream DTS and DD to my receiver over HDMI, and while I'd love for the receiver to be the decoder, I'm ok with the receiver not doing anything except decoding PCM. It hasnt been a problem, but it is definitely annoying.


----------



## PurpleAngel

shrimants said:


> Both me and my gf have Xonar DSX soundcards. Whenever we use an HDMI monitor (when we go to the basement to game on the TV, for example), the sound card entirely fails to output via optical. It completely refuses to.
> 
> On my own PC, it seems to go away if I disable HDMI audio output. On hers, it seems to never allow audio output as long as HDMI is plugged in, regardless of what her video driver is set to for HDMI audio (enabled or disabled). In the basement, Ideally I'd like to just connect via an optical cable and use DTS-connect to mix 5.1 PCM -> DTS and send it to the Z5500 system we have there, but ive been just using analog.
> 
> For my own PC it doesnt matter anymore as I use HDMI for everything. VLC doesnt want to bitstream DTS and DD to my receiver over HDMI, and while I'd love for the receiver to be the decoder, I'm ok with the receiver not doing anything except decoding PCM. It hasnt been a problem, but it is definitely annoying.


 
 First problem, might have to change the audio output in the playback tab, Control Panel > Sound > Playback tab.
  
 Not sure on second problem, but I would think you would have better audio quality if you used a Xonar DX or D1 sound card and sent analog to the Z5500
  
 Third problem, I would would think it's better to send PCM (uncompressed) audio thru HDMI,
 Why have VLC compress your audio into bitstream before sending the audio thru HDMI?


----------



## shrimants

purpleangel said:


> First problem, might have to change the audio output in the playback tab, Control Panel > Sound > Playback tab.
> 
> Not sure on second problem, but I would think you would have better audio quality if you used a Xonar DX or D1 sound card and sent analog to the Z5500
> 
> ...




For the playback devices thing, trust me, i tried everything. The act of using HDMI seems to entirely disable optical output from the sound card, although analog still works fine. And yes, i've gone through both xonar audio panel and playback devices (the regular sound icon) to make sure the correct output devices were selected. As I said, even on my own PC, if HDMI audio is enabled on my (newer) GPU, the playback through optical just stops, even though windows is registering that things are happening.

I think the Xonar DSX is expecting the audio stream to be coming from some sort of header from the GPU, as I do have an HDMI input header on the card, and I have no clue what to plug into it, as my GPU doesnt seem to have anything relevant.

For the second thing, the DSX and the DS are, i think, exactly the same card but different interfaces. I only dont like doing analog because while my analog output is undoubtedly better than the Z5500's dac is, the cables the Z5500 came with are rather fat and I have no desire to buy more 3.5mm cables just to do this. The cables we have are just fine for the other 99% usage we get out of it, which is connecting to RCA splitters and then to blu-ray (BDP 83). So basically BDP83 is normally the one that does analog input to z5500, but for gaming i just swap the connectors for now. The connectors currently tweak the heck out of the jacks though, because of how fat all of them are. I'll probably just go with a knife or file and shave them down on the sides or something.

Third problem, maybe bitstream is the wrong word. What I mean is, if i have FLAC or AAC or something, VLC should obviously decode because receiver cant. But if its DTS-HD or DTS or DD or some other format that my receiver CAN decode, I'd rather send that full on datastream directly to the receiver. I believe right now it is impossible with VLC to do HDMI pass-through, though I think with commercial applications you can do it. I know XBMC can do it, but I dont want to start up XBMC every time just to watch a quick video while eating.


----------



## Evshrug

I finally bought a soundcard! Creative's SB-Z! $65 on Amazon shipped (and at newegg... but they've been unreliable lately).
I'm also optimistic about the stereo mic, I hope that it might be a nice alternative to a lapel mic while at my PC desk.
The possible hiccup from uninstalling my current Recon3D and Realtek drivers is not something I'm looking forward to... I haven't even been able to figure out how to fresh install my (upgrade version DVD) Windows on a newer, better harddrive or SSD yet. Easier to set up a freaking hackintosh grumble grumble grumble...





fegefeuer said:


> PC True Audio, PS4 True Audio, Xbone's SHAPE similarly to use. Talk about REAL hardware accelerated audio explosion. The future can only be bright.
> http://www.maximumpc.com/everything_you_wanted_know_about_amd%E2%80%99s_new_trueaudio_technology_2013
> 
> What is True Audio?




whaaaAAAT? Woooo who! That's awesome, AWESOME news (because it means I predicted right, tho nobody was "wrong"), I was already looking forward to PS4 when it became available but this seals the deal. Of course, on PC, this may render my soundcard purchase just now moot... Ah well. Life. I'd rather have this development and more gaming studios have tools to take advantage of (hopefully 3D) sound processing.




chicolom said:


> Hmm....




Lol I instantly thought of this too... The meme lives!


----------



## SaLX

> *MPC: So a person could keep their existing discrete X-Fi/Xonar/Recon for the superior DACs/ADC, and switch off their effects to use TrueAudio but then switch them back for games that use OpenAL or don’t support TrueAudio?*
> 
> AMD: That’s 100 percent correct. We designed AMD TrueAudio in the manner that we did precisely because we know users have great audio hardware with high-quality OPAMPS that they don’t want or need to forfeit. Whatever audio device(s) a user has right now, that hardware is ready to go with AMD TrueAudio.


 
 How will we be able to control the audio using our soundcard's software suites for surround?  Do we switch DH or SBZ off, or will TrueAudio work seamlessly between them? What if AMD and Creative/Asus don't reach a deal and refuse to integrate their tech with AMD's? There's always an army of suits circling tech advancements like this
  
 The above question mentions OpenAL - but it isn't used nowadays = so what?. There's never a lawyer around to answer questions like this


----------



## Evshrug

If I'm reading the article right, you would switch off SBX or DH. Circumvents the need to license these other DSPs (new method of processing too, so no patent legalities). You just buy the graphics card with the TrueAudio hardware in it, the 3D audio is processed before it even reaches a sound card (or onboard audio) just like graphics, and the sound card would basically be just a DAC/Amp.

It would work like OpenAL used to... the only question, of course, will game developers take advantage of the processing? That was part of the problem with OpenAL, but the other part was Creative took control of OpenAL and game developers had to design with the "lowest common denominator" in mind (how many PC gamers would have a Creative card?). TrueAudio will have a pretty major leg-up in this regard, since it will be STANDARD HARDWARE in a game console (which, poor me, has had all pre-order supply exhausted for the past 6 months).


----------



## SaLX

Eve - you sure it'll be just like OpenAL in it's implementation? Also AMD will strike a deal with either Creative or Asus, not both.
  
 Goodbye Dolby etc as we switch off surround in our software suites. Where then do we actually control the Trueaudio DSP's functions -  ie the % of surround, elevation etc - surely there will be an AMD control panel to do this; even a tab in AMD's own video control panel? Using the SBZ for instance you'd lose the crystalizer, bass boost and smart volume as they are part of SBZ pro right now as we speak.
  
 Also the audio processors of our STX's, DX's, X-Fi's and SBZ's etc (all of which offload to our CPU's now - even the X-FI) will all go to waste. But just imagine if future AMD video cards came out with a DAC in them with an amplified headphone jack? There's plenty space and horsepower inside modern graphics cards (and a lot of heat...). Could they completely replace soundcards? Just speculating, and I know it's a fair bit off for PC's.
  
 Don't get me wrong, this is an exciting development and _is a good thing_ for us.


----------



## Evshrug

It's Ev... Eve would be a girl, though I'd always wanted to meet an Eve.
No deal needs to be struck with either Creative or Asus, or Dolby, because it doesn't make use of their products. If you read the full article, TrueAudio does it's processing before sound libraries (such as FMOD or Wwise) are applied, before a 5.1 mix that SBX Pro or Dolby Headphone would remix down to stereo. Basically, you're getting real-time positional processing instead of a 5.1 mix. In that way, it's like OpenAL, in other ways though I am not an expert in the field (this is just what I understand from the article).

I hadn't thought about adjustable surround, and the extra features like "Crystalizer" that I generally found degraded the surround effect (plus made highs harsher for me). The ones I DID like were equalizer effects (bass and dialogue boosts), I think we could still use a standard EQ for that (mostly), but I could understand why others might miss them. From what I read though, the TrueAudio supposedly works well regardless of ear shape, so supposedly it should sound natural with no need for adjusting %. Also a step forward in rear cue presentation.

I wouldn't mind if videocards had built-in headphone jacks, but I'd be just as happy plugging in USB or Optical DACs (or using a soundcard for it's traditional purpose, as a DAC). I think it ought to be possible to pipe TrueAudio out through HDMI, as well. I would LOVE if the PS4 had a dedicated headphone jack (I haven't seen this level of specification details yet), but I doubt it's there 

I have no idea how well TrueAudio will deliver on it's promises, but somewhat I don't mind hyping it so companies know there is a demand!


----------



## PurpleAngel

shrimants said:


> Third problem, maybe bitstream is the wrong word. What I mean is, if i have FLAC or AAC or something, VLC should obviously decode because receiver cant. But if its DTS-HD or DTS or DD or some other format that my receiver CAN decode, I'd rather send that full on datastream directly to the receiver. I believe right now it is impossible with VLC to do HDMI pass-through, though I think with commercial applications you can do it. I know XBMC can do it, but I dont want to start up XBMC every time just to watch a quick video while eating.


 
 FLAC or AAC is 2-channel audio, there is really nothing to decode.
 Not sure why when your playing an audio file using VLC, the audio will not go thru the HDMI connection.


----------



## shrimants

purpleangel said:


> FLAC or AAC is 2-channel audio, there is really nothing to decode.
> Not sure why when your playing an audio file using VLC, the audio will not go thru the HDMI connection.




Thats not what i'm saying at all.

Flac, aac, mp3, and the other formats are "usually" decoded by software to 2.0 PCM and sent to the receiver. This is because the receiver usually doesnt have a CODEC for this (generally a hardware implementation on a chip, like what is in MP3 players).

DTS, Dolby Digital, and all of the newer evolutions of these formats are sent directly to the receiver, decoded BY THE RECEIVER TO PCM, and then played. The receiver has a proper hardware codec (microchip) for this.

Right now, VLC doesnt do that. It just decodes everythign in software instead of letting the receiver do anything. So the only thing my receiver ever gets is PCM. The receiver should say "DTS" when i play a DTS -encoded file, and it should say "Dolby Digital" when I play a dolby digital encoded file. It should read PCM when i play anything else that is being decoded in software (within windows) and sent over the HDMI cable as PCM.

To elaborate slightly, back in Toslink Optical world, this feature was called "S/PDIF PASSTHROUGH". Think of DTS and DD as a "zip file" for music. Rather than unzipping a 5.1 or 7.1 channel audio signal and sending the entire thing to the receiver, the computer/player would send the entire zip file over. The receiver would "unzip" it and play back the contents inside.

Right now, VLC is doing everything: It unzips everything and then sends it to the receiver.

Quality wise, it should theoretically make no difference, as that decode process is lossless short of hardware failure or buffer errors or something. But it would be VERY nice (ie not annoying) if my receiver would received the "zipped" DTS/DD/whatever file instead of having VLC doing all the decoding.

Also, i've greatly simplified this example. technically my receiver DOES have those mp3/flac/aac/whatever codecs built in, but I dont think I can give it those over an HDMI connection. It can definitely decode those files via USB and network connections, though. If I could bitstream those files too, that would be fantastic.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

evshrug said:


> It's Ev... Eve would be a girl, though I'd always wanted to meet an Eve.
> No deal needs to be struck with either Creative or Asus, or Dolby, because it doesn't make use of their products. If you read the full article, TrueAudio does it's processing before sound libraries (such as FMOD or Wwise) are applied, before a 5.1 mix that SBX Pro or Dolby Headphone would remix down to stereo. Basically, you're getting real-time positional processing instead of a 5.1 mix. In that way, it's like OpenAL, in other ways though I am not an expert in the field (this is just what I understand from the article).
> 
> I hadn't thought about adjustable surround, and the extra features like "Crystalizer" that I generally found degraded the surround effect (plus made highs harsher for me). The ones I DID like were equalizer effects (bass and dialogue boosts), I think we could still use a standard EQ for that (mostly), but I could understand why others might miss them. From what I read though, the TrueAudio supposedly works well regardless of ear shape, so supposedly it should sound natural with no need for adjusting %. Also a step forward in rear cue presentation.
> ...





I'm going to go ahead and assume true audio will work like Razer surround where it sits just before your chosen audio endpoint. True audio will probably send a 2 channel pcm stream to your sound card and then you can apply the effects you want from its control panel.

Most likely amds control panel will be where you control the hrtf settings as that's the only logical place before the endpoint. OR you may even be able to adjust in game itself depending on how devs implement it.

So theoretically you can send true audio through any endpoint to your DAC, amp, AVR, you name it. Yup including HDMI. I don't see AMD limiting it to onboard lol. And since the gcn cards don't have analogue outs, it wouldn't make sense.

I wouldn't want GPUs with headphones out. Either they will be cheap and in that regard useless or they will be audiophile quality and drive up GPU costs. That and the cards already are a garden of digital components, adding analogue stages would lengthen the already long GPU.


----------



## Evshrug

^not to mention digital noise impinging on the analogue stage of a headphone jack.

I'm not sure exactly how Razer surround works... I thought that was just another 5.1 to stereo headphone down mixer, except – unlike soundcards – it runs entirely off of CPU resources, and can tune the HRTF (within limits, and using a bit of guesstimation). TrueAudio would apparently happen before the 5.1 stuff is set into channels. I could be wrong on any of this though.


----------



## PurpleAngel

shrimants said:


> That's not what I'm saying at all.
> 
> Flac, aac, mp3, and the other formats are "usually" decoded by software to 2.0 PCM and sent to the receiver. This is because the receiver usually doesn't have a CODEC for this (generally a hardware implementation on a chip, like what is in MP3 players).


 
 I'm far from an "audio expert", but I find it hard to believe that any modern receiver would have any problems playing any music audio file?


----------



## shrimants

It's not a matter of "can't play", it's a matter of "am I directly doing a file transfer of flac over hdmi or am I doing a decompression to pcm and them transferring that time-sensitive signal". For the Network and USB connections, the receiver decodes an actual file. For hdmi, it decodes time sensitive information. The dolby and dts formats are also time sensitive. IE they have to be at a certain place at a certain time or you get dropped audio. With a file transfer like flac or aac the audio just gets stored on media and accessed whenever. Does that clarify things?

Technically you are right. The receiver should be able to receive any compatible format as frames and play it back after a decode. This is called bitstreaming. However, in the interest of keeping it simple, I'm only interested in getting the most basic functionality working. That is, when I play dts encoded content, it should be sent to the receiver as dts, not decoded to pcm before being sent to the receiver.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

evshrug said:


> ^not to mention digital noise impinging on the analogue stage of a headphone jack.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly how Razer surround works... I thought that was just another 5.1 to stereo headphone down mixer, except – unlike soundcards – it runs entirely off of CPU resources, and can tune the HRTF (within limits, and using a bit of guesstimation). TrueAudio would apparently happen before the 5.1 stuff is set into channels. I could be wrong on any of this though.




Sorry what I meant was HOW Razer surround is implemented in the audio pipeline. Where it sits.

You can select which endpoint it plays to. I didn't mean the CPU bound mixing/5.1 down mixing part.


----------



## PurpleAngel

shrimants said:


> It's not a matter of "can't play", it's a matter of "am I directly doing a file transfer of FLAC over HDMI or am I doing a decompression to PCM and them transferring that time-sensitive signal". For the Network and USB connections, the receiver decodes an actual file. For HDMI, it decodes time sensitive information. The Dolby and DTS formats are also time sensitive. IE they have to be at a certain place at a certain time or you get dropped audio. With a file transfer like FLAC or AAC the audio just gets stored on media and accessed whenever. Does that clarify things?
> 
> Technically you are right. The receiver should be able to receive any compatible format as frames and play it back after a decode. This is called Bitstreaming. However, in the interest of keeping it simple, I'm only interested in getting the most basic functionality working. That is, when I play DTS encoded content, it should be sent to the receiver as DTS, not decoded to PCM before being sent to the receiver.


 
 To the best of my knowledge, Dolby and DTS is stored on disk as bitstream (compressed) and with something like an external Blu-ray player, you have the option of leaving the audio as is (bitstream) and play that thru the HDMI cable to a receiver (or modem TV) which will then convert the bitstream to PCM.
 Or set the external Blu-ray player to decode the bitstream to PCM, then sending it thru the HDMI cable to the receiver (or TV).
  
 If your on a computer and using it as the source of a video, of any kind, using a software program like Windows Media Player or VLC, or Media Player classic, etc. it's going to automatically convert the bitstream (compressed audio) to PCM, before it's sent thru a HDMI cable.
 As I would assume computers can only process PCM, not bitstream.
  
 So I would assume when your playing a music files, like FLAC or AAC and using a program like Foobar2000, Win Amp, Windows media player, VLC, Media Player Classic, etc, if it's outputed from any digital output on the computer, like HDMI, or USB or S/PDIF, it's going to be PCM.


----------



## shrimants

purpleangel said:


> If your on a computer and using it as the source of a video, of any kind, using a software program like Windows Media Player or VLC, or Media Player classic, etc. it's going to automatically convert the bitstream (compressed audio) to PCM, before it's sent thru a HDMI cable.
> *As I would assume computers can only process PCM, not bitstream.*
> 
> So I would assume when your playing a music files, like FLAC or AAC and using a program like Foobar2000, Win Amp, Windows media player, VLC, Media Player Classic, etc, if it's outputed from any digital output on the computer, like HDMI, or USB or S/PDIF, it's going to be PCM.




PCM is just one stage of the decode process for any digital file storage format. The great thing about computers is that they are so versatile. As long as you can write software to tell it how to do something, it can do that something. So unlike with a receiver, which requires a hardware chip to tell it how to decode FLAC, AAC, DTS, etc, with a PC you just need some software to tell it how to decode the DTS or w/e stream.

Generally, you'd have something like mp3/flac/dts (a52)/aac be the compressed storage medium. it gets decompressed to PCM, which is your straight up 1's and 0's which represent the analog waveform itself rather than just some clever repackaging method. There is no information present in PCM except for the analog waveform itself, and you need to make sure your sample rate and bit depth settings are correctly handled or this part makes no sense to your hardware. This is what gets decoded to an analog wave and then amplified.

On one hand, you are KIND OF right. computers, at the end of the day, turn everything to PCM and send it to a DAC. but you are incorrect in thinking that they cant handle anything else. They can handle anything. In software, they can do the conversion themselves to PCM.

For a receiver, it can accept this PCM signal straight off the wire, or it can accept the prior product in the signal path: the actual compressed (flac, aac, mp3, dts, etc) file. For DTS in particular, they have been designed for this.

So to put this incredibly simply, there are 2 ways i should be able to visualize my data on my receiver. Either my receiver should tell me that the input is "PCM 3/2/.1" or it should tell me the input is "DTS 3/2/.1" or whatever other codec is being passed to it. Right now, the computer is doing ALL of the software processing. With an optical cable, you can do s/pdif pass-through. with an hdmi cable and XBMC, you can do HDMI pass-through (bitstreaming, when available). with VLC, you cant do that.

I'm going to try out KCP this weekend and see if thata offers what i want. VLC used to be a fantastic program when it played every format without complaining about it. Now it seems to just get in the way of output.


----------



## benbenkr

You guys are making it too complicated.
  
 Just install MPC-HC lite with the LAV filters and madvr. LAV Audio itself allows bitstream of DTS and DD, problem solved.
 Forget about using VLC or whatever else.
  
 This is the current way I'm doing it and it perfectly works any movie encoded in DTS or DD. DTS-HD doesn't really work properly yet, but support is there and the devs are working around it.


----------



## shrimants

benbenkr said:


> You guys are making it too complicated.
> 
> Just install MPC-HC lite with the LAV filters and madvr. LAV Audio itself allows bitstream of DTS and DD, problem solved.
> Forget about using VLC or whatever else.
> ...




I dont think i have any dts-hd material, so its all good. I think i have DTS-ES 6.1, which my receiver would need to matrix down. KCP is just Kawaii Codec Pack. Its an auto-install of MPC-HC, MadVr, LAV filters, and I think a couple other things like reclock and stuff. automatically sets itself up. Trick is, you need to have proper settings. If you have DTS-connect that you're relying on, it doesnt work right. Since im using HDMI now, it should work OK.


----------



## benbenkr

shrimants said:


> I dont think i have any dts-hd material, so its all good. I think i have DTS-ES 6.1, which my receiver would need to matrix down. KCP is just Kawaii Codec Pack. Its an auto-install of MPC-HC, MadVr, LAV filters, and I think a couple other things like reclock and stuff. automatically sets itself up. Trick is, you need to have proper settings. If you have DTS-connect that you're relying on, it doesnt work right. Since im using HDMI now, it should work OK.


 
  
 I know. I'm using KCP.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

shrimants said:


> I dont think i have any dts-hd material, so its all good. I think i have DTS-ES 6.1, which my receiver would need to matrix down. KCP is just Kawaii Codec Pack. Its an auto-install of MPC-HC, MadVr, LAV filters, and I think a couple other things like reclock and stuff. automatically sets itself up. Trick is, you need to have proper settings. If you have DTS-connect that you're relying on, it doesnt work right. Since im using HDMI now, it should work OK.


 
  
  
 I know you said you dont want to start up XBMC every time to watch a quick video, but 1 second start up and then just go right to the file in your library(XBMC also has the last played file on the homescreen with the right skin) seems like hardly any work.  At least to me it isn't.
  
 I feel like XBMC would solve most of your problems and headaches.  And the major feature that makes me smile is seperate handling of bitstreamed audio and decoded audio.  Meaning you can chose to send each type of stream to a different end point.  AND you can select WASAPI exclusive mode for each which gets rid of all that nasty windows mixer resampling/errors/pops/crackles etc and lets your receiver's DAC get the stream and go to town.
  
 Anyway just my 2 cents.   I feel like codec packs are just a mediocre fragmented solution to PC multimedia setups.  
  
 P.S.  XBMC frodo now does decoding of DTS-HD and DOLBY TRUE HD.  Not that I would if your receiver can


----------



## shrimants

djinferno806 said:


> I know you said you dont want to start up XBMC every time to watch a quick video, but 1 second start up and then just go right to the file in your library(XBMC also has the last played file on the homescreen with the right skin) seems like hardly any work.  At least to me it isn't.
> 
> I feel like XBMC would solve most of your problems and headaches.  And the major feature that makes me smile is seperate handling of bitstreamed audio and decoded audio.  Meaning you can chose to send each type of stream to a different end point.  AND you can select WASAPI exclusive mode for each which gets rid of all that nasty windows mixer resampling/errors/pops/crackles etc and lets your receiver's DAC get the stream and go to town.
> 
> ...




I'll check for some minimal version of xbmc themes but ibsont waht an htpc solution for media browsing when im sitting in front of an explorer based interface for everything else. I just want a regular window that I drat and drop files into and have them play the way I want . also kcp isn't a codec pack.


----------



## FooMojo

> guys, i noticed something happening on 2 different computers now. maybe one of you has some insight into it.
> 
> Both me and my gf have Xonar DSX soundcards. Whenever we use an HDMI monitor (when we go to the basement to game on the TV, for example), the soundcard entirely fails to output via optical. It completely refuses to.
> 
> ...


 
  
 A bit late to the party, but I've been doing a bunch of experiments with my new Schiit Lyr/Bifrost and HD Audio so I might be able to add some value here.
  
 VLC output should be controlled by whatever your default audio device has been set to.  You can try and override this in VLC, but I have found that to have mixed results.  I have better luck using the Win7 Sound Control Panel to set my default output device to be Digital Optical out (SPDIF), or one of the HDMI outputs if I'm going for a direct HDMI connect from my video card.
  
 In truth, VLC output is going to be determined (and usually overridden) by what the Intel HD Audio (HDA) driver determines on your PC.  This is where the default audio device comes into play as HDA has its own physical and software link interface which uses I2C-like signalling to transfer command and data packets on 48KHz boundaries.  In other words, HDA has the final word on what the soundcard, video card, external DAC, etc. receives as far as framing, bitrate, and most importantly format is concerned.


----------



## shrimants

Ive more or less given up on VLC except as a quick and dirty playback solution. I installed KCP last night, set up LAV filter to bitstream all the formats my receiver could handle, played some DTS-ES6.1 star wars, and everything worked like a dream.

I still have to test how this works out for sources that are 5.1 FLAC and 5.1 AAC. They should not be bitstreamed, they should be 5.1 PCM to the receiver. If they arent, I will need to screw around with KCP some more. If I can get that working, though, I should be able to ditch VLC entirely.


----------



## benbenkr

I don't know why people are still using VLC in the first place. madvr alone provides the best image quality, combine that with LAV filters and you're pretty much set for any type of video — be it movies, anime/animation, sports, whatever else.
  
 Ditch VLC, seriously.
  
 5.1 FLAC didn't work until quite recently with LAV audio. Now it does and yes, it doesn't bitstream and is just pass through as 5.1 PCM.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I'm partial to media player classic. I like simplicity. I leave it to my VT60's accurate screen calibration, not software filters.


----------



## FooMojo

mad lust envy said:


> I'm partial to media player classic. I like simplicity. I leave it to my VT60's accurate screen calibration, not software filters.


 
  
 Wut?  MPC uses TONS of software filters e.g. Quicktime, Realplayer, Shoutcast, OGM, Matroska, etc.  I don't think you can avoid them.


----------



## benbenkr

foomojo said:


> Wut?  MPC uses TONS of software filters e.g. Quicktime, Realplayer, Shoutcast, OGM, Matroska, etc.  I don't think you can avoid them.


 
  
 That's only if you install the full version, which becomes bloatware.
 MPC lite pretty much has nothing.


----------



## shrimants

foomojo said:


> Wut?  MPC uses TONS of software filters e.g. Quicktime, Realplayer, Shoutcast, OGM, Matroska, etc.  I don't think you can avoid them.




Hence following either the MPC-HC high quality playback setup guide or simply setting up "KCP", which comes with pretty much nothing and bypasses everything.


----------



## FooMojo

benbenkr said:


> That's only if you install the full version, which becomes bloatware.
> MPC lite pretty much has nothing.


 
  
 All versions of MPC have internal filters which are required by design to open, unpack, and decode media containers.  This is what I meant by not being able to avoid filters with MPC.  You can avoid external filter installation, but not filters in general.
  


shrimants said:


> Hence following either the MPC-HC high quality playback setup guide or simply setting up "KCP", which comes with pretty much nothing and bypasses everything.


 
  
 Good stuff shrimants, I can see why you went the KCP route.


----------



## KaputtEqu1pment

Hey Guys, I'm new to the Audio scene and have been lurking in the forums here for the past few days.
  
 First things first, I want to thank MadLust and Nameless for making this writeup.  I'm now a proud owner of a Creative X-Fi titanium and A fresh pair of AKG Q701 headphones, moving up from onboard audio and a Razer Chacharias (sp?) headset. First time I listened through the q701's, it almost brought tears to my eyes--I've heard things in songs that I've never heard before.  Just amazing. (thanks madlust for your review).
  
 Now with that said, lets move on.
  
 Nameless,I followed your setup guide for the X-fi Ti soundcard; set windows speakers to 7.1 and in the xfi control panel enabled game mode, disabled crystalyzer (should i keep that on or off for gameplay?) and enabled the cms3d stuff for headphone setup.
  
 My Big question here is this, when i'm playing Video Games such as BF3, or BF4, should I enable surround or keep it stereo in the game menu? Better yet, should i do the same thing for every game i play?
  
 Another question I have, my headphones are directly plugged into the back of the soundcard, and it is stupid loud. Like, i have to set the windows volume between 20-30/100 and even the games i need to pull down further in the windows sound mixer for my head not to explode with all that flurry of sound.  What is up with that?  Is that normal? or is there something seriously wrong with my setup?
  
 especially with that said, I suppose i won't be needing an amp? right?
  
 Anyway, thanks for the info.


----------



## SaLX

Anybody following this new(ish) thread? http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator Any opinions?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

foomojo said:


> Wut?  MPC uses TONS of software filters e.g. Quicktime, Realplayer, Shoutcast, OGM, Matroska, etc.  I don't think you can avoid them.




I don't have any of that. I uncheck everything. My MPC is as fast as it comes. The most barebones player that plays what I need it to play, which is mostly anime.

Adding filters to the image, is like equalizing music when you already had an accurate set up. No thanks.


----------



## chicolom

foomojo said:


> Wut?  MPC uses TONS of software filters e.g. Quicktime, Realplayer, Shoutcast, OGM, Matroska, etc.  I don't think you can avoid them.


 
  


mad lust envy said:


> I don't have any of that. I uncheck everything. My MPC is as fast as it comes. The most barebones player that plays what I need it to play, which is mostly anime.
> 
> Adding filters to the image, is like equalizing music when you already had an accurate set up. No thanks.


 
  
  
 I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure those are all just video containers which require certain A/V codecs for decoding and playing them - not "software filters" that _process _your video.
  
  
 That'd be the music equivalent to saying you don't use those filthy FLAC or ALAC "filters" in your music player.  And stay away from that damn dirty APE!
  
 Unless your watching Animes with hard-coded subs your probably using a matroska container (.mkv).
  
  
 Maybe you guys are thinking about the video _render _method?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Yeah, that's what i mean, the only 'files' I use for MPC is the ones that allow me to watch certain file types with subs, mainly MKV. I haven't come across many instances where I need something that MPC can't play in it's most barebones of settings.

I have no need for a pretty UI for something I'm gonna fullscreen anyway. Trying other video players, I laugh at how sluggish they are next to MPC.

As for music, I just use winamp with basically no options save for using the bento skin in monodark to match my desktop. I have tried some of the more popular ones here, and I can't hear a damn difference, regardless of what options people tell you to add. Foobar, etc. I'm fine with a slim Winamp placed on the right side of my taskbar...


----------



## chicolom

I use PotPlayer for video and MusicBee for music.  Their both simple when I want them to be and powerful when I need them to be.
  
 It doesn't really matter what program you use as long as it stays fairly out of the way when it's actually playing your files.


----------



## FooMojo

chicolom said:


> I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure those are all just video containers which require certain A/V codecs for decoding and playing them - not "software filters" that _process _your video.
> 
> 
> That'd be the music equivalent to saying you don't use those filthy FLAC or ALAC "filters" in your music player.  And stay away from that damn dirty APE!
> ...


 
  
 The software filters are used to open, unpack, decode, and transcode audio and video containers.  Other than that they perform no other transform on the media data, thus no image modification other than what may occur as an artifact of a transcode.
  
 The video renderer is the beast that outputs the video data to a memory buffer to be processed by your graphics card driver, and eventually your graphics card.
  
 I get it now.  Mad was referring to video render...  so no MadVR for MadLustEnvy


----------



## Fegefeuer

That Lichdom True Audio demo showed elevation or height differences. That scene with the archer especially. Nice, though there is still more to that they need to show us. 

  
 http://www.computerbase.de/news/2013-11/lichdom-mit-amds-trueaudio-in-der-hoerprobe/


----------



## Evshrug

^ thanks for the find!!!


----------



## Mach-X

You can specify in VLCs options which audio device to use and whether it not its decoded. Just make sure you have the hdmi devices options to "allow applications to take control of this device".


----------



## TwelveTrains

I have a bit of an ancillary question.
  
 I want to start being able to watch Blu-ray discs with surround headphone sound. I have been attempting to do a lot of reading on this topic the last month but I always end up in threads with dead ends and such.
  
 I guess I will propose the easiest solution first... is it possible to watch/listen to Blu-ray discs from my computer if I install a Blu-ray disc drive and software (i.e. PowerDVD) and then somehow use my Creative X-Fi Titanium (Non-HD) to send a virtual surround signal to my Schiit stack (Bifrost + Asgard)? 
  
 I have not been able to figure out if the X-Fi Titanium is capable of this. I see in the sound card's software that I can "enable Dolby Digital Live" or "enable DTS Interactive". I already use the X-Fi Titanium extensively for gaming (the CMSS-3D headphone shines beautifully for some game I play like Killing Floor which uses the Unreal Tournament 2004 engine). And then I send the stereo mix through an optical cable to my Bifrost.
  
 But now I really want to add some Blu-ray capabilities into the mix. Would I somehow be able to do DTS or Dolby headphone with what I've got or would I have to buy an external decoder like an Astro Mixamp and use this with a standalone Blu-ray player/video game console?
  
 Or should I just sell my Schiit stack and get a home theater receiver and plug a standalone Blu-ray player + PC into that? I would feel as if my Schiit stack would be capable of offering better quality for specifically headphones, so this seems less appealing as I only really use headphones for all my entertainment needs. 
  
 Any other setup ideas are welcome.


----------



## PurpleAngel

twelvetrains said:


> I have a bit of an ancillary question.
> 
> I want to start being able to watch Blu-ray discs with surround headphone sound. I have been attempting to do a lot of reading on this topic the last month but I always end up in threads with dead ends and such.
> 
> ...


 

 I'm in the same boat with using Cyberlinks PowerDVD 11 Ultra and my Essence STX, the STX outputs optical to my external NFB-15.32 DAC/amp.
 I'm guessing if you set PowerDVD to "Headphone", it will output processed Headphone Surround Sound in a 2-channel signal, so you set you Titanium HD to 2-channel input, set the Titanium-HD to PCM, so the Titanium-HD will then output that signal out it's optical port to the Biforst/Asgard.
 I'm assuming (guessing) PowerDVD can process Dolby and DTS headphone surround sound.


----------



## TwelveTrains

purpleangel said:


> I'm in the same boat with using Cyberlinks PowerDVD 11 Ultra and my Essence STX, the STX outputs optical to my external NFB-15.32 DAC/amp.
> I'm guessing if you set PowerDVD to "Headphone", it will output processed Headphone Surround Sound in a 2-channel signal, so you set you Titanium HD to 2-channel input, set the Titanium-HD to PCM, so the Titanium-HD will then output that signal out it's optical port to the Biforst/Asgard.
> I'm assuming (guessing) PowerDVD can process Dolby and DTS headphone surround sound.


 
 Thanks for the reply, I have the non-HD version of the X-Fi Titanium by the way. Would that make a difference?


----------



## PurpleAngel

twelvetrains said:


> Thanks for the reply, I have the non-HD version of the X-Fi Titanium by the way. Would that make a difference?


 

 Nope, between the Titanium and Titanium-HD, the optical output features are the same.


----------



## TwelveTrains

purpleangel said:


> Nope, between the Titanium and Titanium-HD, the optical output features are the same.


 
 Cool, thanks.
  
 I just tried doing a test run with a regular DVD (I already have a DVD drive) to get some headphone surround sound. I tried using a copy of Casino Royale which is supposedly Dolby 5.1 and playing it in VLC media player. I enabled some things in the VLC settings; "use S/PDIF when available", "force detection of Dolby Surround - On", "Dolby Surround - On", and "Headphone surround effect" box checked.
  
 I can't seem to enable Dolby Digital Live in my Creative Volume Control panel. I get a message saying "The Creative Audio Service is not started. Please reinstall the application." However, I simply followed instructions here http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=88899 and was able to start this service again, however the message persists, and "Enable Dolby DTS" will not remain checked in the Creative Panel.


----------



## PurpleAngel

twelvetrains said:


> Cool, thanks.
> 
> I just tried doing a test run with a regular DVD (I already have a DVD drive) to get some headphone surround sound. I tried using a copy of Casino Royale which is supposedly Dolby 5.1 and playing it in VLC media player. I enabled some things in the VLC settings; "use S/PDIF when available", "force detection of Dolby Surround - On", "Dolby Surround - On", and "Headphone surround effect" box checked.
> 
> I can't seem to enable Dolby Digital Live in my Creative Volume Control panel. I get a message saying "The Creative Audio Service is not started. Please reinstall the application." However, I simply followed instructions here http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=88899 and was able to start this service again, however the message persists, and "Enable Dolby DTS" will not remain checked in the Creative Panel.


 
 So you have set VLC to take 6-channel (5.1) of audio and process it into 2-channels of Dolby Headphone surround sound.
 (I would have assumed PowerDVD would be preferred for play all Bl;u-ray & DVD movie disks).
  
 You have no use for DDL (Dolby Digital Live) compression with what you are doing, your only trying to send 2-channels of audio thru S/PDIF (optical), you would only need DDL if you were trying to pass more then 2-channels thru S/PDIF.
 Also the Bifrost/Asgard can not uncompress DDL audio anyway.


----------



## TwelveTrains

purpleangel said:


> So you have set VLC to take 6-channel (5.1) of audio and process it into 2-channels of Dolby Headphone surround sound.
> (I would have assumed PowerDVD would be preferred for play all Bl;u-ray & DVD movie disks).
> 
> You have no use for DDL (Dolby Digital Live) compression with what you are doing, your only trying to send 2-channels of audio thru S/PDIF (optical), you would only need DDL if you were trying to pass more then 2-channels thru S/PDIF.
> Also the Bifrost/Asgard can not uncompress DDL audio anyway.


 
 Ah yes, I may realize now where my confusion came from. 
  
 So would this quality level of headphone surround be comparable to something like Silent Cinema which Yamaha receivers do or the Astro Mixamp?
 I guess I was never looking for a Dolby Digital Decoder afterall?
  
 Sorry, with every answer it seems like I always just have more questions...


----------



## PurpleAngel

twelvetrains said:


> Ah yes, I may realize now where my confusion came from.
> So would this quality level of headphone surround be comparable to something like Silent Cinema which Yamaha receivers do or the Astro Mixamp?
> I guess I was never looking for a Dolby Digital Decoder afterall?
> Sorry, with every answer it seems like I always just have more questions...


 
 I would assume the Yamaha Silent Cinema is a very basic Headphone Surround Sound, easier to make it work with different movie audio, Dolby, DTS, etc.
 And I would assume Creative's CMSS-3D was foremost designed for gaming audio (like FPS?) and secondly for movies.
 Dolby Headphone has it's roots in movie audio, I know some games have come with a "Home Theater" setting, which i guess helps when using Dolby (and maybe DTS) for gaming.
 What gaming improvement Dolby might have done with it's software is not something I'm knowledgeable about.
 From my best understanding, Microsoft made Dolby the default audio for the xBox (Not sure what the xBox One default audio is?) and the Astro Mix-amp originally came with Dolby (not sure if that has changed), so the Astro is really just fine for gaming consoles.
 The $25 Asus Xonar DG sound card gives any Win PC just as good gaming features, as any Astro mix-amp.


----------



## TwelveTrains

purpleangel said:


> I would assume the Yamaha Silent Cinema is a very basic Headphone Surround Sound, easier to make it work with different movie audio, Dolby, DTS, etc.
> And I would assume Creative's CMSS-3D was foremost designed for gaming audio (like FPS?) and secondly for movies.
> Dolby Headphone has it's roots in movie audio, I know some games have come with a "Home Theater" setting, which i guess helps when using Dolby (and maybe DTS) for gaming.
> What gaming improvement Dolby might have done with it's software is not something I'm knowledgeable about.
> ...


 
 So when watching a movie on a PC, the software (i.e. PowerDVD, VLC) does the Dolby Digital decoding?
 On a console, something like the Astro Mixamp is needed to decode Dolby Digital?


----------



## PurpleAngel

twelvetrains said:


> So when watching a movie on a PC, the software (i.e. PowerDVD, VLC) does the Dolby Digital decoding?
> On a console, something like the Astro Mixamp is needed to decode Dolby Digital?


 
 In general that sounds about right.


----------



## TwelveTrains

COOL


----------



## Breaker

I've been going back and forth between the schiit stack and a sound card but have finally decided on the schiits. If I purchase the creative mb3 software suite for when I game (sbx) there shouldn't be any audio effects difference from the actual sound card solution, correct? 
  
 CPU overhead isn't really a concern being that nothing has come close to really pushing my CPU.


----------



## PurpleAngel

breaker said:


> I've been going back and forth between the Schiit stack and a sound card but have finally decided on the Schiits. If I purchase the creative mb3 software suite for when I game (SBX) there shouldn't be any audio effects difference from the actual sound card solution, correct?
> 
> CPU overhead isn't really a concern being that nothing has come close to really pushing my CPU.


 

 Usually when you connect an external USB DAC to a computer, it bypasses the sound card (built in or add-on internal).
 And I believe the Creative MB3 software depends on the on-board audio processor.
 Not sure if the Creative software can still output thru a USB port.
  
 An external sound card can work thru a USB port.
  
 Maybe there is a forum at Creative Labs whre you can ask about the software.


----------



## Breaker

purpleangel said:


> Usually when you connect an external USB DAC to a computer, it bypasses the sound card (built in or add-on internal).
> And I believe the Creative MB3 software depends on the on-board audio processor.
> Not sure if the Creative software can still output thru a USB port.
> 
> ...


 
 In theory I believe it should work but then again I don't really know how they wrote their code. Normally the software manages the audio before the dac is ever engaged so I think the software should process it before it is ever sent through the USB.
  
 I'll see what information I can get over at creative though.


----------



## SaLX

The Creative Labs forums are notoriously bad. I've been registered there for 2 months and still can't post anything - takes ages to be allowed the permissions to post anything; and long before that you'd have given up. Maybe this is to stop all the public hate? Who knows, but truly avoid the place for any answers even if you have the patience of a saint.


----------



## Breaker

I would contact them directly but generally find I know more than customer support does haha


----------



## Evshrug

purpleangel said:


> I would assume the Yamaha Silent Cinema is a very basic Headphone Surround Sound, easier to make it work with different movie audio, Dolby, DTS, etc.
> And I would assume Creative's CMSS-3D was foremost designed for gaming audio (like FPS?) and secondly for movies.
> Dolby Headphone has it's roots in movie audio, I know some games have come with a "Home Theater" setting, which i guess helps when using Dolby (and maybe DTS) for gaming.
> What gaming improvement Dolby might have done with it's software is not something I'm knowledgeable about.
> ...




Just an FYI, the "primary" or default audio for the Xbox One at-launch is DTS-HD, though Microsoft recently announced they will be adding support for Dolby Digital Live out through optical in the future. Right now, an Astro Mixamp wouldn't work with surround output from an Xbox One.

Just my opinion, DH and Yamaha's Silent Cinema are basically on-par, I prefer the various solutions from Creative (began testing a Sound Blaster Z this week).

Battlefield 3's audio settings are confusing, I think the "home theater" setting is for 5.1 channel surround, which you'd want to use with your own surround processing. I'm not totally clear about this being the best mode to use with a soundcard, though.

I thought a Creative sound card could process DDL and DTS connect if the source was inside the computer like a disc drive or media file. I enjoyed a few DVD's in surround with my Mac and Recon3D USB.


----------



## FooMojo

breaker said:


> In theory I believe it should work but then again I don't really know how they wrote their code. Normally the software manages the audio before the dac is ever engaged so I think the software should process it before it is ever sent through the USB.
> 
> I'll see what information I can get over at creative though.


 
  
 Haven't had to deal with the Creative folks in quite some time, but in essence what the Creative DSP would have to do is process the audio stream and either loopback or route that stream into a Creative digital passthrough to a USB output.  Not impossible, but also not normally how soundcard DSPs function.
  
 You'll probably have better luck connecting your Schiit stack via SPDIF, and using the Creative DSP to generate Dolby Headphone Surround to the Creative SPDIF output.


----------



## SaLX

@Foo - don't think the Schiits take SPDIF unfortunately as I'd have bought them by now


----------



## Evshrug

foomojo said:


> Haven't had to deal with the Creative folks in quite some time, but in essence what the Creative DSP would have to do is process the audio stream and either loopback or route that stream into a Creative digital passthrough to a USB output.  Not impossible, but also not normally how soundcard DSPs function.
> 
> You'll probably have better luck connecting your Schiit stack via SPDIF, and using the Creative DSP to generate Dolby Headphone Surround to the Creative SPDIF output.



FYI, Creative sound cards have never used Dolby Headphone, they use their own advanced processing (CMSS-3D, THX TruStudio Pro, and now SBX ProStudio).

There might be a way to use creative's What U Hear option to get surround out from USB, but I've never troubleshooted it. Also, I think the Shiit Bifrost has optical input.


----------



## SaLX

> There might be a way to use creative's What U Hear option to get surround out from USB, but I've never troubleshooted it


 
 That would open up a whole world of possibilities......!! Do mean that it could work like Creative's 2ch Optical out to an external DAC? I can't test that Evs - hopefully you could sometime if you get the opportunity?


----------



## Evshrug

I mean, MAYBE, but the obstacle would be if the soundcard can do the processing even if it isn't selected as an output in Windows. Should only be about as difficult as using a graphics card but having the monitor plugged into your motherboard (can you do this?). Oh, and the only USB DAC I have... is a Creative Recon3D, lol.

I personally have observed more difference going headphone to headphone, less amp to amp, and hardly anything DAC to DAC so far (assuming you don't have a really crap DAC). I've always had Apple products which are pretty good, this Z is my first upgraded DAC and I've only had time to listen to it once so far, playing two levels of BF3 campaign.


----------



## FooMojo

salx said:


> @Foo - don't think the Schiits take SPDIF unfortunately as I'd have bought them by now


 
  
 Bifrost and Gugnir both have SPDIF inputs.
  
  


evshrug said:


> FYI, Creative sound cards have never used Dolby Headphone, they use their own advanced processing (CMSS-3D, THX TruStudio Pro, and now SBX ProStudio).


 
  
 It has been a VERY long time since I used a Creative product, but I do remember them supporting Dolby Digital.  A quick scan of their product line reveals that at least a few of their products continue to support Dolby Digital Live as well as DTS.
  


evshrug said:


> I mean, MAYBE, but the obstacle would be if the soundcard can do the processing even if it isn't selected as an output in Windows. Should only be about as difficult as using a graphics card but having the monitor plugged into your motherboard (can you do this?).


 
  
 Yeah, good stuff EV.  Windows audio rendering can get quite complicated between the Directsound/Waveout render and the Intel HDA processing, and I do not believe that the Creative DSP will be able to process the sound data and then output the transformed data to USB unless Creative has built-in some loopback options into their sound drivers and mixers.
  
 What I believe would have to happen is something like this (e.g. if you playing a game):
 game > windows directsound > intel hda > creative dsp > windows directsound > intel hda > usb output


----------



## Breaker

Well I'll keep searching to see if maybe someone has tried it. That's another thing I liked about the Razer Surround software, it drops a dummy playback device on your system.


 If anything, maybe when I get the schiit stack I may just pay the $30 for the suite to give it a try. If I do I'll report back and let you guys know how it went.


----------



## Breaker

foomojo said:


> It has been a VERY long time since I used a Creative product, but I do remember them supporting Dolby Digital.  A quick scan of their product line reveals that at least a few of their products continue to support Dolby Digital Live as well as DTS.
> 
> 
> Yeah, good stuff EV.  Windows audio rendering can get quite complicated between the Directsound/Waveout render and the Intel HDA processing, and I do not believe that the Creative DSP will be able to process the sound data and then output the transformed data to USB unless Creative has built-in some loopback options into their sound drivers and mixers.
> ...


 
  
 Creative uses some dolby codecs but it doesn't use dolby headphone. They utilize SBX instead.

 The thing that throws me about the SB X-Fi software suite is that it doesn't have to be processed through a dedicated dsp like with sound cards. Normally, the problem with usb audio devices is that you are only able to use one playback device so if your effects are run by the onboard dsp, it is bypassed because the usb is selected as your playback device.

 With the software, it essentially isn't tied to a playback device. In my reasoning at least, it seems like it may be able to process the signal before it is passed through the usb interface.


----------



## SaLX

> *Evshrug* /img/forum/go_quote.gif





> I personally have observed more difference going headphone to headphone, less amp to amp, and hardly anything DAC to DAC so far (assuming you don't have a really crap DAC).


 
 The DAC isn't meant to 'sound' different as you say, however I was under the impression that superior DAC's extracted _more detail _out of recordings. I mean, why bother if a HiFiMediy Sabre DAC can do the job at $40 compared to a Burson DAC? Also the better you go, the better the soundstage, imaging and overall presentation of the music. They may well 'sound' the same but you get more of the crime scene sonically with a good DAC surely?
  
 DAC's are now universally 'good' these days, but _really_ good dacs will help really good headphones.
  
 So many words trying to describe music - using words...


----------



## FooMojo

salx said:


> The DAC isn't meant to 'sound' different as you say, however I was under the impression that superior DAC's extracted _more detail _out of recordings. I mean, why bother if a HiFiMediy Sabre DAC can do the job at $40 compared to a Burson DAC? Also the better you go, the better the soundstage, imaging and overall presentation of the music. They may well 'sound' the same but you get more of the crime scene sonically with a good DAC surely?
> 
> DAC's are now universally 'good' these days, but _really_ good dacs will help really good headphones.
> 
> So many words trying to describe music - using words...


 
  
 Wow...  you are really hitting some key notes SaLX 
  
 I didn't give much thought to an external DAC/amp until I heard my friend's Schitt Bifrost/Lyr combo coming out of his PC...  this is mostly for HD music while he renders graphics images, but regardless of application, the clarity and depth of soundstage are fantastic.  After listening to his setup, I immediately placed my own order for this Schitt stack.  The detail, width of presentation,
 and clarity of bass/mids/highs is in a word amazing.  I also placed an order for a Sennheiser HD650 to enhance my Westone 4R IEMs, and AKG K702 Anni.
  
 There really are no words to properly describe the feeling of hearing my new Schiit stack with my new HD650 headphones.  Let's just say that this combination has opened a whole new world into the PC HD audio realm for me, and I will never look back.


----------



## Evshrug

foomojo said:


> It has been a VERY long time since I used a Creative product, but I do remember them supporting Dolby Digital.  A quick scan of their product line reveals that at least a few of their products continue to support Dolby Digital Live as well as DTS.
> *They do support Dolby Digital Live (and DTS connect)... for outputting a multi-channel mix through Optical to a home theater receiver or something. Creative has almost always had their own headphone surround processing developed in-house (or purchased, but not licensing Dolby Headphone specifically)*
> 
> Yeah, good stuff EV.  Windows audio rendering can get quite complicated between the Directsound/Waveout render and the Intel HDA processing, and I do not believe that the Creative DSP will be able to process the sound data and then output the transformed data to USB unless Creative has built-in some loopback options into their sound drivers and mixers.
> ...




Thank you for your responses.




salx said:


> The DAC isn't meant to 'sound' different as you say, however I was under the impression that superior DAC's extracted _more detail_ out of recordings. I mean, why bother if a HiFiMediy Sabre DAC can do the job at $40 compared to a Burson DAC? Also the better you go, the better the soundstage, imaging and overall presentation of the music. They may well 'sound' the same but you get more of the crime scene sonically with a good DAC surely?
> 
> DAC's are now universally 'good' these days, but _really_ good dacs will help really good headphones.
> 
> So many words trying to describe music - using words...



Would you like to try singing to me?
But seriously... I specifically said "observed a difference," I believe that there _ought_ to be a benefit (want a big one, Daddy!  ), but it wasn't immediately obvious to me when playing BF3 (which has good audio clip samples, but it's kinda hectic and making-me-an-old-man loud). I reserve the right to change opinions as I learn


----------



## SaLX

Evs -no no!! - Don't get me wrong. I only came here on head-Fi to suss out what bloody headphone and soundcard to get _and promptly leave _- and now I'm aiming for around $600 max worth of gear! I'm sure you're privvy to this brand of audiopathology.  You're a damned good poster and I didn't mean anything by that.
  
 If you want to hear a hare brained line of thought:  SBZ OEM > Audio-GD 11.32 > Philips X1 ( I know the Dac/Amp is overkill) <> To be replaced with a AKG K712 pro around April next year when I get the cold hard readies. The AKG will _actually_ benefit from the NFB's amp.
  
 And don't sing mate.. no way.... not even in jest


----------



## SaLX

foomojo said:


> There really are no words to properly describe the feeling of hearing my new Schiit stack with my new HD650 headphones.  Let's just say that this combination has opened a whole new world into the PC HD audio realm for me, and I will never look back.


 
 I'm really glad that you've got there Foo - I'm hoping that my inane choice works just as well


----------



## TwelveTrains

evshrug said:


> Just an FYI, the "primary" or default audio for the Xbox One at-launch is DTS-HD, though Microsoft recently announced they will be adding support for Dolby Digital Live out through optical in the future. Right now, an Astro Mixamp wouldn't work with surround output from an Xbox One.
> 
> Just my opinion, DH and Yamaha's Silent Cinema are basically on-par, I prefer the various solutions from Creative (began testing a Sound Blaster Z this week).
> 
> ...




So when playing a movie in a PC that has a Creative card, will the Dolby 5.1 or DTS encoding benefit from being faced with CMSS-3D? Or is PC movie watching only truly optimized with a Asus card being fed through Dolby Headphone? 

I was under the assumtion that only hardware could decode (or is it encode?) a Dolby or DTS signal that then could be sent as a virtual headphone surround signal. But even VLC has a Dolby surround setting...which I am not sure anymore if a Dolby headphone card or if an external decoder is needed to take advantage of this.

I would like to think I could get some kind of virtual heaphone surround for movies with my Creative card alone, but CMSS-3D just makes everything sound...weird for movies. Perhaps it is because I had Dolby surround enabled in player?


----------



## PurpleAngel

twelvetrains said:


> So when playing a movie in a PC that has a Creative card, will the Dolby 5.1 or DTS encoding benefit from being faced with CMSS-3D? Or is PC movie watching only truly optimized with a Asus card being fed through Dolby Headphone?
> 
> I was under the assumtion that only hardware could decode (or is it encode?) a Dolby or DTS signal that then could be sent as a virtual headphone surround signal. But even VLC has a Dolby surround setting...which I am not sure anymore if a Dolby headphone card or if an external decoder is needed to take advantage of this.
> 
> I would like to think I could get some kind of virtual heaphone surround for movies with my Creative card alone, but CMSS-3D just makes everything sound...weird for movies. Perhaps it is because I had Dolby surround enabled in player?


 

 The software Cyberlink PowerDVD 11 Ultra should be able to deal with an audio on a Blu-ray disk.
 Usually sells for $30 on eBay.


----------



## Evshrug

salx said:


> Evs -no no!! - Don't get me wrong.
> *Huh? I wasn't offended or anything, just tried to re-clarify what I was trying to say: I haven't observed a clear change yet, but I'm not that experienced yet so I won't rule out the possibility that a more expensive DAC makes enough difference to justify the added cost.*
> I only came here on head-Fi to suss out what bloody headphone and soundcard to get _and promptly leave_ - and now I'm aiming for around $600 max worth of gear! I'm sure you're privvy to this brand of audiopathology.  You're a damned good poster and I didn't mean anything by that.
> *Oh, why thanks, I just do my thing and you do yours (& others,theirs), and that's what makes this community fun. And yes, I Am privvy... I resist impulse buys as much as possible, but I basically bought my AKG K712 just because I could. Love 'em.*
> ...



Aw c'mon man, you've never hummed a song stuck in your head? Even if you just do it for yourself, singing feels good 



twelvetrains said:


> So when playing a movie in a PC that has a Creative card, will the Dolby 5.1 or DTS encoding benefit from being faced with CMSS-3D? Or is PC movie watching only truly optimized with a Asus card being fed through Dolby Headphone?
> 
> I was under the assumtion that only hardware could decode (or is it encode?) a Dolby or DTS signal that then could be sent as a virtual headphone surround signal. But even VLC has a Dolby surround setting...which I am not sure anymore if a Dolby headphone card or if an external decoder is needed to take advantage of this.
> 
> I would like to think I could get some kind of virtual heaphone surround for movies with my Creative card alone, but CMSS-3D just makes everything sound...weird for movies. Perhaps it is because I had Dolby surround enabled in player?



THX sounded great for me with the proper settings; I have no idea what your setup is like. Double-processed virtual surround definitely makes for weirds.


----------



## NoOneLt

Hello everyone, i have a thread here, need an advice between PC 350 SE vs. ATH-A500X for PC FPS online gaming, and wrote details there, any help would be appreciated!


----------



## kezzo

hi, i ve got a question.
  
 when im watching gameplay videos on youtube i take unbelievable sounds with my headset. positional voices are perfect. but when i play same game i couldnt take this sound.
  
 i have a headset with usb surroun soundcard.


----------



## SaLX

Looks like you haven't turned on your surround features kezzo. You've been listening to youtube in stereo most likely. Check out your manual or google how to set up your specific card.


----------



## kezzo

i am using creative headset and my headset control panel's surround option is on everytime.


----------



## SaLX

Have you set it to 7.1 or 5.1 in the Windows Sound control panel (speaker icon> playback devices>configure in systray)? If it's set to stereo = no surround. Also switch off your motherboards audio in Bios.


----------



## kezzo

i have not have a sound card, iam using headsets driver which has only virtual surround. there's no 5.1 nor 7.1 option. my motherboard doesnt support 5.1 or 7.1
  
 thats why i am thinking to buy a real sound card.


----------



## OverlordMittenz

Okay, so this has probably been asked a million times, so please don't murder me.  I currently have a Turtle Beach Ear Force DSS, ASUS Maximus VI Hero mobo and am using optical, and Superlux 661B.  I am getting AKG Q701 from my wife for Christmas and whatever other accessory I will need to get dolby headphone to them.  I was planning on getting the Objective 2 right off the bat, but seeing as my Ear Force DSS isn't getting Dolby Digital signal from my computer... I think I might need to invest in a sound card?  Any help would be appreciated.  PLIIX is bleh.


----------



## NamelessPFG

twelvetrains said:


> So when playing a movie in a PC that has a Creative card, will the Dolby 5.1 or DTS encoding benefit from being faced with CMSS-3D? Or is PC movie watching only truly optimized with a Asus card being fed through Dolby Headphone?
> 
> I was under the assumtion that only hardware could decode (or is it encode?) a Dolby or DTS signal that then could be sent as a virtual headphone surround signal. But even VLC has a Dolby surround setting...which I am not sure anymore if a Dolby headphone card or if an external decoder is needed to take advantage of this.
> 
> I would like to think I could get some kind of virtual heaphone surround for movies with my Creative card alone, but CMSS-3D just makes everything sound...weird for movies. Perhaps it is because I had Dolby surround enabled in player?


 
  
 For movie watching, CMSS-3D Headphone works, though you should also know that WinDVD and PowerDVD both have the option of software Dolby Headphone mixing. Presumably, other media players do too; I just don't know which ones or how to set it up. Just make sure you don't accidentally have both on simultaneously, as that just destroys the intended positioning.
  
 Said software mixing is obviously useless for PC gaming, which is what this guide tends to center on.
  
 Dolby Digital/DTS decoding on PC is generally done in software via the media player program; you shouldn't have to worry about that. Dolby Surround/Pro Logic is a bit trickier, as it's a means of matrixing a surround signal into only two channels, and as most devices can't tell it apart from a conventional stereo signal, you need to manually enable or disable it. Worse off, I don't know of any software decoders. However, the only times I've found Dolby Surround/Pro Logic decoding to be a concern are when you're dealing with console games that don't have Dolby Digital or DTS support.
  


overlordmittenz said:


> Okay, so this has probably been asked a million times, so please don't murder me.  I currently have a Turtle Beach Ear Force DSS, ASUS Maximus VI Hero mobo and am using optical, and Superlux 661B.  I am getting AKG Q701 from my wife for Christmas and whatever other accessory I will need to get dolby headphone to them.  I was planning on getting the Objective 2 right off the bat, but seeing as my Ear Force DSS isn't getting Dolby Digital signal from my computer... I think I might need to invest in a sound card?  Any help would be appreciated.  PLIIX is bleh.


 
  
 First off, the Maximus VI Hero only supports DTS Connect; I guess Asus didn't feel like licensing any Dolby features for their ROG boards.
  
 The Ear Force DSS cannot decode DTS signals. For that matter, if this is strictly for PC gaming, I don't see why you'd go out and buy one when you could've bought a cheap X-Fi Titanium or Xonar DGX. Are you trying to re-use the same setup across PC and console?
  
 On top of that, they didn't license any of Creative's X-Fi MB software suites either, so you don't have any form of headphone surround whatsoever with the integrated audio drivers. Not unless you're willing to experiment with Razer Surround or Out Of Your Head, anyway.
  
 At the very least, I suppose you could give that Sonic Radar software a shot if you need the situational awareness advantage. (I don't use it myself; it seems to be tied to the M6H's Realtek driver, and I keep the Realtek codec disabled due to having a proper sound card installed.)


----------



## OverlordMittenz

namelesspfg said:


> First off, the Maximus VI Hero only supports DTS Connect; I guess Asus didn't feel like licensing any Dolby features for their ROG boards.
> 
> The Ear Force DSS cannot decode DTS signals. For that matter, if this is strictly for PC gaming, I don't see why you'd go out and buy one when you could've bought a cheap X-Fi Titanium or Xonar DGX. Are you trying to re-use the same setup across PC and console?
> 
> ...


 
 From what I understand, the ROG series cards are supposed to be getting Sonic Radar.  It's not a feature I really care for.  
  
 I bought the Ear Force DSS a year or two ago on eBay for 2.50.   That's the only reason I have it.  I originally bought it for Console gaming, but then switched to the Creative Extigy with a "true" 5.1 headset.  Now, after hearing the sound quality of my Superlux over Psyko Carbons, I've decided to switch to Dolby Headphone and a pair of good cans (AKG Q701)  They aren't soley for gaming though, I plan on listening to a fair bit of music on them as well. Otherwise I would have gone with the much cheaper option of the AD700 even if they are bit hard to find now that they are discontinued.  
  
 So, what would be my "best" way of moving forward as far as getting Dolby Headphone to the AKG Q701s? There is a ASUS Xonar Essence STX on eBay right now with upgraded OP Amps that I was looking into, but I'm not positive that it supports Dolby headphone and I'm not positive it would sufficiently power the cans for a pleasant audio experience.  I'm still not positive as I've never really delved this far into audio equipment.  On console it was quite easy.  Plug in this, this, and this and play games. 
  
 I went into windows audio and clicked dolby digital and was able to see the dolby digital light on the DSS light up, so there must be some way of enabling it even though it is probably locked down somewhere from ASUS.
  
 EDIT: When I say best.  I mean in the ~150 dollar price range.  Used it absolutely fine, I just am kinda pushing the wifey already to get another device to pair up with the headphones.  So, amplification and Dolby Headphone are absolutely necessary.


----------



## PurpleAngel

overlordmittenz said:


> Okay, so this has probably been asked a million times, so please don't murder me.  I currently have a Turtle Beach Ear Force DSS, ASUS Maximus VI Hero mobo and am using optical, and Superlux 661B.  I am getting AKG Q701 from my wife for Christmas and whatever other accessory I will need to get dolby headphone to them.  I was planning on getting the Objective 2 right off the bat, but seeing as my Ear Force DSS isn't getting Dolby Digital signal from my computer... I think I might need to invest in a sound card?  Any help would be appreciated.  PLIIX is bleh.


 

 Asus Xonar DX or D1 sound card, used $60.
 Plug the Objective 2 (or Schiit Magni?) headphone amplifier straight into the Xonar DX.
 No need for the DSS.


----------



## OverlordMittenz

purpleangel said:


> Asus Xonar DX or D1 sound card, used $60.
> Plug the Objective 2 (or Schiit Magni?) headphone amplifier straight into the Xonar DX.
> No need for the DSS.


 
 I'm also looking at the Schiit Magni.  I'm not a huge audiophile, so I most likely won't be able to tell the subtle differences between the two and the aesthetics care much more pleasing on it.  Me throwing the DSS in there was kinda just showing what I have now to give you guys a better chance to help me with moving forward. Thanks to you both!  
  
 How would the Essence STX compare to the O2 (Schiit Magni) DX combo?  I've heard that these particular headphones are very selective with how they like to be amped. 
 EDIT:  Or!  Getting the Schiit Magni Mod combo and using the cheapest dolby headphone processing sound card I can find, something like the ASUS DGX (30 bucks on amazon right now)  with the "listen" feature in windows?


----------



## PurpleAngel

overlordmittenz said:


> I'm also looking at the Schiit Magni.  I'm not a huge audiophile, so I most likely won't be able to tell the subtle differences between the two and the aesthetics care much more pleasing on it.  Me throwing the DSS in there was kinda just showing what I have now to give you guys a better chance to help me with moving forward. Thanks to you both!
> 
> How would the Essence STX compare to the O2 (Schiit Magni) DX combo?  I've heard that these particular headphones are very selective with how they like to be amped.
> EDIT:  Or!  Getting the Schiit Magni Mod combo and using the cheapest Dolby headphone processing sound card I can find, something like the ASUS DGX (30 bucks on amazon right now)  with the "listen" feature in windows?


 
 I'm not familiar with the Listen feature in Windows, So really can't say anything on it.


----------



## NamelessPFG

overlordmittenz said:


> I'm also looking at the Schiit Magni.  I'm not a huge audiophile, so I most likely won't be able to tell the subtle differences between the two and the aesthetics care much more pleasing on it.  Me throwing the DSS in there was kinda just showing what I have now to give you guys a better chance to help me with moving forward. Thanks to you both!
> 
> How would the Essence STX compare to the O2 (Schiit Magni) DX combo?  I've heard that these particular headphones are very selective with how they like to be amped.
> EDIT:  Or!  Getting the Schiit Magni Mod combo and using the cheapest dolby headphone processing sound card I can find, something like the ASUS DGX (30 bucks on amazon right now)  with the "listen" feature in windows?


 
  
 If you want to get an external DAC, I've found that said "listen" feature inherently degrades the audio worse than any benefits you'll get out of using a USB DAC, so you'd better make sure it has S/PDIF input. That rules out the Schiit Modi and the ODAC alike.
  
 Why not just use the DGX's own DAC in the meantime?


----------



## OverlordMittenz

namelesspfg said:


> If you want to get an external DAC, I've found that said "listen" feature inherently degrades the audio worse than any benefits you'll get out of using a USB DAC, so you'd better make sure it has S/PDIF input. That rules out the Schiit Modi and the ODAC alike.
> 
> Why not just use the DGX's own DAC in the meantime?




I just bought the xonar essence stx. :whistle: I'll use the built in amp on that and and eventually get a separate amp like the Schiit magna and use the line out on the essence. This gives me time to actually listen and improve my ears and get better at listening to improve my overall experience. 

Thank you guys for all of your suggestions and such. I think I'll be very happy with this set up and my venture to becoming an audiophile.


----------



## Evshrug

OverlordMittenz,
Dolby headphone, CMSS-3D, SBX ProStudio, these are all different common headphone surround algorithms, and all sound fine. The Asus "Xonar" cards all use Dolby Headphone; currently I'm using SBX on my Creative "Sound Blaster Z."

I think the cheapest external DAC with optical input is FiiO's E07k portable amp/DAC? Haven't tried it myself. Honestly, I think the Sound Blaster Z sounds great with my AKG K712 (haven't tried it yet with my very similar Q701), you get a good DAC and a decent amp AND sound drivers that work pretty seamlessly so far. You could always purchase a Magni amp later if you want to compare to plugging Q701 straight into the card.

Edit: you posted while I was typing, and basically are doing what I suggested. Dolby Headphone is pretty good for games, the STX hardware is supposed to be great for music and movies. The amp section of that soundcard is suitable by itself for the Q701; I don't know what upgraded opamps you'll get but it should add a bit of warmth to the sound and work well. There's no objectively "best" amp for the Q701, it's just that you can hear differences between amps. "Best" for me is a tube amp, but you may find your own preference.


*Nameless*,
It's time, my friend. Over a year in the making.
I now have Borderlands 2 for PC, with a Creative sound card supporting OpenAL, with a NVIDIA graphics card supporting Tesselation and PhysX. I need to enable BL2's "hidden" OpenAL potential.

Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.


----------



## OverlordMittenz

I have two creative extigys and was not a huge fan of cmss3d, I did however like Dolby headphone. I figured what I'm doing is my best option so I can upgrade in the future, too.

Would better op amps help the RCA out to a better stand alone amp? I assume it requires soldering, so I'd have to have someone else do it because my soldering skills are sub par


----------



## Evshrug

The RCA line outs bypass any internal amp of the STX, so no, it wouldn't help.

For the record? I didn't like CMSS-3D much either, but that's personal taste and I think that (objectively) it's a good DSP. I have a Turtle Beach DSS too, and Dolby's alright, but it adds an echo effect that takes a little getting used to. I preferred the THX TruStudio best so far, but SBX seems as good. I haven't had a chance to compare those much to tell the difference, yet.


----------



## NamelessPFG

evshrug said:


> *Nameless*,
> It's time, my friend. Over a year in the making.
> I now have Borderlands 2 for PC, with a Creative sound card supporting OpenAL, with a NVIDIA graphics card supporting Tesselation and PhysX. I need to enable BL2's "hidden" OpenAL potential.
> 
> Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.


 
  
This is the thread where I first learned of that, I'm pretty sure.
  
 Basically, you need to go into your \My Documents\My Games\Borderlands 2\WillowGame\Config\WillowEngine.ini file, scroll down to the WinDrv.WindowsClient section, and there you'll easily find the relevant lines to change.


----------



## TwelveTrains

Finally got PowerDVD. Dolby Headphone sounds great.


----------



## PurpleAngel

overlordmittenz said:


> I just bought the Xonar Essence STX. :whistle: I'll use the built in amp on that and and eventually get a separate amp like the Schiit Magni and use the line out on the essence. This gives me time to actually listen and improve my ears and get better at listening to improve my overall experience.
> 
> Thank you guys for all of your suggestions and such. I think I'll be very happy with this set up and my venture to becoming an audiophile.


 

 Unless your going to be using headphones that are under 50-Ohms, can't really see a need to get the Schiit Magni, as the headphone amplifier on the STX should be roughly equal to the Magni, for headphones that are 80-Ohms or higher.
 Make sure you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS.


----------



## PurpleAngel

overlordmittenz said:


> I have two creative extigys and was not a huge fan of cmss3d, I did however like Dolby headphone. I figured what I'm doing is my best option so I can upgrade in the future, too.
> 
> Would better op amps help the RCA out to a better stand alone amp? I assume it requires soldering, so I'd have to have someone else do it because my soldering skills are sub par


 

 Make sure you have removed all the Creative software/drivers, if your no longer using a Creative sound card.
 Assuming your talking about swapping op-amps on the STX.
 Check out the LME49990s, which you can buy presoldered off eBay, from a guy in Canada.
 There is also the AD797BRs, which you can buy presoldered, from China.
 These presoldered op-amps (Dual SOIC op-amps on a Dip-8 adapter) usually sell from $16-$19 each, so you looking at around $50 for three (6 op-amps soldered on to three adapters).
 There are other op-amps to choose from, but can not remember their model number.


----------



## OverlordMittenz

purpleangel said:


> Unless your going to be using headphones that are under 50-Ohms, can't really see a need to get the Schiit Magni, as the headphone amplifier on the STX should be roughly equal to the Magni, for headphones that are 80-Ohms or higher.
> Make sure you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS.


 
  
 Sadly, I never was able to use the Creative Exitgy through usb thanks to them not even releasing Vista drivers. I will uninstall the realtek audio drivers for the mobo, though.  
  
 I probably am not going to swap the OP amps considering I plan on using the RCA out for the Schiit Magni, so really no need to swap them if they aren't going to help with the sound. 
  
 I am going to be using the AKG Q701s which I heard are very picky with how they like to be amplified and are 68Ohms.  I also plan on buying the Schiit Modi in the future for listening to music and videos, so the Schiit Magni would be somewhat of a necessity.  I'll try to dig up some reviews of people who had the Essence STX and switched to a separate amplifier and see what their findings were.  I may never need a separate amplifier, but I am just keeping my options open!
  
 EDIT:  After reading a little further into the card on the ASUS Essence STX forum here, one of the OP amps is a "buffer" for the RCA outs, so I will most likely change all of them anyway.  the RCA out one will be a very analytical and detailed OP amp for gaming because details and such are the most important thing and then warm "nicer" sound OP amps for the heaphone out so I can easily switch between the two for what kind of sound I am looking for.


----------



## SaLX

If I'm not mistaken, aren't the RCA outs on the STX just for stereo? IE no Dolby Headphone unlike it's little brothers in the line which can do DH on their line outs.


----------



## OverlordMittenz

salx said:


> If I'm not mistaken, aren't the RCA outs on the STX just for stereo? IE no Dolby Headphone unlike it's little brothers in the line which can do DH on their line outs.


 
 I believe that is the case, sadly.


----------



## PurpleAngel

salx said:


> If I'm not mistaken, aren't the RCA outs on the STX just for stereo? IE no Dolby Headphone unlike it's little brothers in the line which can do DH on their line outs.


 

 Correct, when using the STX's line-out (RCA), the Xonar control need to be set to "Speaker" out, can't use the "Headphone" setting.


----------



## PurpleAngel

overlordmittenz said:


> Sadly, I never was able to use the Creative Exitgy through usb thanks to them not even releasing Vista drivers. I will uninstall the realtek audio drivers for the mobo, though.
> 
> I probably am not going to swap the OP amps considering I plan on using the RCA out for the Schiit Magni, so really no need to swap them if they aren't going to help with the sound.
> 
> ...


 

 For the kind of cash you would spend on an external amplifier and good op-amps for the STX, you better off selling off the STX and getting an Audio-GD NFB-15.32 DAC/Amp, $255+shipping.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

evshrug said:


> I think the cheapest external DAC with optical input is FiiO's E07k portable amp/DAC? .




The E07k is USB and analog in only.

The cheapest external dac with digital input is the Fiio D03k. Runs for about $30. You'd need an amp though. I'd just acquire a used E17 for the cheapest all in one solution.


----------



## Bakuryu

I'm looking at getting the Sennheiser HD 558 Headphones. I play a lot of different kinds of PC games. As of late I've been playing Terraria which will doesn't need spectacular sound, but I do off and on play CS 1.6 and GO, Left 4 Dead 2, Bioshocks, Borderlands 2. Not all, but most of these games have some kind of audio cues or need for immersion.
  
 So the question is how do I get it? I have an onboard sound card thats probably not going to do it:
  
 http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?cat=Specifications&Model=H61M-VS
  
 Even if it was good it doesn't have optical, which based one what I have read is the only way to get 5.1 to headphones.
  
 I currently have this:
  
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829180006

 Don't ask why I bought it, it will only make you mad, but at least it was a while ago. The thing I need to know is, is this thing worth my time. I can't find anywhere that says it will output 5.1 through the optical, I just figured it would. It does say that it is capable of Dolby Digital through the optical.
  
 The other thing I have is this:
  
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003O0KICS/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=
  
 The Dolby Digital light goes on when I test that encoding type in the settings, and when I play a movie through VLC, although for some strange reason the PLIIX light was also on. When I try to play games though the light does not go on. I have the sound coming from the device I mentioned before this via optical and from the DSS to the headphones.
  
 I'm kinda confused as to where to go next after getting the headphones I wont have much left budget wise so I can't afford to spend much more.


----------



## Murder Mike

If you need a Dolby Digital Live feed to the DSS you might want to check out this thread Unlocked Realtek HD Audio Drivers (With Dolby Digital Live and DTS Interactive). It worked for someone earlier this morning on a different forum. He was looking for a DDL feed for his Astro Mixamp.


----------



## PurpleAngel

bakuryu said:


> I'm looking at getting the Sennheiser HD 558 Headphones. I play a lot of different kinds of PC games. As of late I've been playing Terraria which will doesn't need spectacular sound, but I do off and on play CS 1.6 and GO, Left 4 Dead 2, Bioshocks, Borderlands 2. Not all, but most of these games have some kind of audio cues or need for immersion.
> So the question is how do I get it? I have an on-board sound card thats probably not going to do it:
> http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?cat=Specifications&Model=H61M-VS
> Even if it was good it doesn't have optical, which based one what I have read is the only way to get 5.1 to headphones.
> ...


 
 Get the Asus Xonar DGX Sound card, $39.99 and get a $10 mail in rebate this month (Amazon)
 Plug the DGX into the motherboard's PCI-E 1X slot. Plug the HD558s directly into the DGX.
 The DGX comes with Dolby Headphone Surround Sound and a basic headphone amplifier.
 So you will have no need for the Encore or DSS.


----------



## chicolom

purpleangel said:


> Get the Asus Xonar DGX Sound card, $39.99 and get a $10 mail in rebate this month (Amazon)
> Plug the DGX into the motherboard's PCI-E 1X slot. Plug the HD558s directly into the DGX.
> The DGX comes with Dolby Headphone Surround Sound and a basic headphone amplifier.
> So you will have no need for the Encore or DSS.


 
  
 +1
  
 This the most straightfoward route.  You'll skip the hacks and get a new soundcard that comes with Dolby Headphone _and _an amp (killing two birds with one stone as you could use the amp anyways). 
  
 Should sound as good if not better than using the DSS (although I love dat bass boost on the DSS).
  
  
_Edit_: Does he need PCI-E or could he get the cheaper DG?


----------



## Bakuryu

purpleangel said:


> Get the Asus Xonar DGX Sound card, $39.99 and get a $10 mail in rebate this month (Amazon)
> Plug the DGX into the motherboard's PCI-E 1X slot. Plug the HD558s directly into the DGX.
> The DGX comes with Dolby Headphone Surround Sound and a basic headphone amplifier.
> So you will have no need for the Encore or DSS.




I love this simple answer. I just have this question. Can 3.5mm produce Dolby surround sound (which is 5.1?) I thought only optical and Hdmi could do 5.1. 



chicolom said:


> +1
> 
> This the most straightfoward route.  You'll skip the hacks and get a new soundcard that comes with Dolby Headphone _and_ an amp (killing two birds with one stone as you could use the amp anyways).
> 
> ...




I second your last question. Although $30 with free shipping ain't bad when paired with the $100 I'm spending on headphones any money I can save is appreciated.


----------



## chicolom

bakuryu said:


> I love this simple answer. I just have this question. Can 3.5mm produce Dolby surround sound (which is 5.1?) I thought only optical and Hdmi could do 5.1.


 
  
 You're still a bit confused about how the surround sound works.
  
_Dolby Digital_ surround and _Dolby Headphone_ surround are NOT the same thing.
  
 Dolby Digital is a 5.1 channel signal and can ONLY be passed through optical or HDMI.  Dolby Digital is _actual _surround sound (5.1 channel), NOT _virtual _surround sound for headphones (2 channel).  You can't listen to Dolby Digital with headphones, unless your headphones have multiple drivers.  To get virtual surround for your headphones you need to process that 5.1 channel into a 2 channel (stereo) signal that your _stereo _headphones can actually use.  That's where _Dolby Headphone _comes in.  Dolby Headphone takes that Dolby Digital 5.1 channel signal and downmixes and processes into a special 2 channel stereo signal that any headphone can use.  Since it's just a 2 channel stereo signal, any 3.5mm jack will output it and it will work with any regular stereo headphone (although some work better than others).  Even though it's only a stereo signal, it still sounds like surround sound when used with headphones because the Dolby Headphone DSP adds head related transfer function cues to the signal, which fool the brain into the hearing the same surround sound that was in the original 5.1 signal.


----------



## SaLX

> Can 3.5mm produce Dolby surround sound (which is 5.1?) I thought only optical and Hdmi could do 5.1.


 
 No. The 3.5mm connection to your headphones is _analog_. All the surround stuff will be done inside the soundcard then sent out in an analog signal via the 3.5mm jack to your analog headphones - the '5.1' isn't relevant in this case. Only those gaming headsets with loads of itty bitty speakers in them require a 5.1 (or even 7.1) as if it were a surround sound speaker system. When using stereo headsets, surround information is transmitted _via stereo_ and it fools our brains into effectively believing where sounds are coming from - and it's highly effective given the right headphones. Watch this clip in stereo (if you've got any headphones): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NirHR5l9AU
  
 What Purple has proposed for you is the simplest, cheapest and most effective solution. If you're using a PC then honestly don't bother with Mixamaps etc.


----------



## PurpleAngel

bakuryu said:


> I love this simple answer. I just have this question. Can 3.5mm produce Dolby surround sound (which is 5.1?) I thought only optical and Hdmi could do 5.1.
> I second your last question. Although $30 with free shipping ain't bad when paired with the $100 I'm spending on headphones any money I can save is appreciated.


 

 The multiable audio tracks that are used as the source for surround sound are carried by S/PDIF (optical & coaxial up to 6 channels) and HDMI (up to 8-channels), 3.5mm (1/8" mini-jack) can only carry up to 2-channels.


----------



## chicolom

Guys, I apologize in advance for the long and annoying post, but now it's _my_ turn to be a newb.  Bear with me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 
 
I'm trying to build myself a computer as my laptop is 6 years old and it's having trouble keeping up with work these days. So I figured I try and build a desktop.  I decided to do this sometime during thanksgiving week as I new there would be a bunch of Black Friday/Cyber Monday sales.  However, I have NEVER built a computer before.  I'm a complete newb when it comes to building a desktop computer.  I'm like MLE (no offense!).  I had to do a $#*& ton of frantic research to try and learn how to go about picking and choosing your components and what the hardware is out there these days - before sales were gone.
 
Anyways, I have a couple PC audio questions:
 
As far as my PC _audio _options go, obviously I've already got plenty of Amp and stereo DAC already, but I _do_ need some surround DSPs.  I'm seeing that some motherboards come with optical outs.  While optical out is good, that will only help me if the onboard audio also has some surround DSP/Dolby Digital encoding capabilites to go with it.  I looked and I'm seeing that some motherboards (mostly ASrock) have THX onboard and some Gigabyte/Asus boards have Dolby Home Theater onboard (such as the Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD3).  Does anyone know if these types of boards are even CAPABLE of outputting their encoded DSP of choice (like Dolby Headphone) over their optical outputs -> e.g. the same way the the Xonar devices can?  Or is it strictly analog out on them?  If they CAN output the Dolby Headphone encoded signal undisturbed, then it would make a card like the Xonar DG redudnant, no?  If they can't, then there's zero use in going for it as I'm NOT going to use the onboard audio's analog outs as my source to feed my amp.  *So, should I bother investing a bit more for a motherboard with onboard Dolby Surround + optical, or is it a lost cause?*
 
Assuming that the motherboards with Dolby Home Theater CAN output DH over optical, would it better to spring for one of those slightly pricier boards (getting whatever overclocking/etc. benefits they bring simultaneously) or instead just take that ~30-40 dollars and put it straight into a soundcard like a Xonar DG(x)?  Does the soundcard have additional benefits like offloading some audio work from the motherboard?  *So should I get a motherboard with onboard Dolby, or a simply a soundcard with Dolby?*  Again, I already have PLENTY of amp, so either way I'll ideally be just sucking a digital signal out of the computer and letting my external amp and DAC do all the heavy amp lifiting.
 
Speaking of DACs, *how good are the DACs in these budget sound cards (the smaller amp cards like Xonar DG, Creative X-fi non titanium, etc.)?  *I guess they don't really have true line outs and your double-amping the HP jacks, but are they still almost par with something like a FiiO D3?  I was thinking I would pick up a D3 optical DAC to do my PC gaming DAC work, grabbing the digital signals out of the soundcards and feeding it to my desktop amp [Soundcard optical out > FiiO D3 > M-stage].  If the soundcard DACs are on par with the D3, this setup would probably be redundant though. 
 
Is a* Xonar DGX with PCI-E better/faster/newer than a regular DG? * I'm not familiar with the differences between PCI vs PCI-E except that the latter is newer.  The DGX costs a bit more than the DG.
 
 
 
So, TL;DR questions:
 
1)  Motherboard w/onboard surround Vs. discrete soundcard?
2)  Soundcard PCI Vs.  PCI-E?   _Solved!_
3)  FiiO D3 Vs. amping the analog outs from sound card?
3)  _Bonus Build question:_  Which CPU platform should I go with, and what's a decent motherboard for it?  _see below..._
 
 
I already ordered parts while the deals were hot.  I can still change things around though.  I'm not going to open any part boxes until I've read a bit more.
 
*Can the PC gurus inspect my newbie build* ?    ->  * http://pcpartpicker.com/user/Chicolom/saved/347t*   <-
Those are all the actual prices I paid (after 1 or 2 mail in rebates).  I scored some good deals I think.
 
I think most of the parts are solid, but I'm still unsure about which CPU platform to go with.  I'm still debating whether to keep the AMD FX8320 CPU or return it and spring for an Intel Chip (what's the best option orice/performance there?  3570k?).  I live near a microcenter so I can combo CPUs and motherboards together for nice prices.  I scored the 8320 for $99 though, and now prices have gone back up some.  A 3570k build would  cost me roughly $100 more I think.  FWIR the intels perform a bit better in non-heavily threaded gaming, but I'm not sure if it's worth price premium.
 
Once the CPU is decided, then I can look for a matching it to a motherboard.  I don't want to invest too much in a motherboard, since sockets changes all the time and it seems like a waste to invest much in extra motherboard features.  I would just need the cheapest stable one that supports a bit of overclocking. For AMD, that's either a 970 or 990fx board.  For intel, I think it's a Z77 maybe?  Not sure.
  
  
 I have a couple more questions but I'll save them for later as this post is already way too long and annoying.  I'm just a dirty console gaming peasant and I need to be schooled by local members of PC Gaming Master Race.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

It sucks, and you suck.




This is why i went the pricey way and just bought an overpriced Alienware. I couldn't be arsed into building something myself. Though of course, laptops are much more limited in building...(can you evenb build them past basic configurations and options).

Like, I would love to open my M17x up and upgrade it's graphics card, etc down the line, though I'm sure that's probably impossible, considering the new gfx cards probably won't work with whatever motherboard is in my laptop, and probably because everything is all soldered in, etc.

Next time, I'm just gonna stick to a desktop.


----------



## chicolom

To be clear, I'm NOT abandoning consoles.  Hell no. 
  
 I'm not a fanboy of any platform.  In fact, I despise it when I go to read the comments on a gaming site, hoping to see some intelligent discussion, but always see it dissolve into fanboy flame wars between sony and microsoft with the PC master race coming into to whip out their e-peen and piss on them both.  I'm really tired of it.  Why can't it be about the _freaking games_.  If anything I'm an anti-fanboy, fanboy.   
  
 My situation is: I needed a more powerful computer either way.  My 6 year old laptop can't crunch hard enough for things like photo/video editing anymore.  So I might as well kill two birds with one stone and build one that can handle work and play.  But being able to play games on it simply a _bonus_.
  
 Besides, we're still in the slow transition between console generations with just some launch titles available.  It will take a while for the next gen library to roll out. 
 Once PS4 has a decent library out, I'll be there picking one up.  In the meantime, I've got a healthy backlog of games to get through and I might as well play them on PC.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

If I were you, I'd wait for the Steam consoles. They'll be computers too....I think.

Steam is the future.... for my wallet.


----------



## chicolom

mad lust envy said:


> This is why i went the pricey way and just bought an overpriced Alienware. I couldn't be arsed into building something myself. Though of course, laptops are much more limited in building...(can you evenb build them past basic configurations and options).
> 
> Like, I would love to open my M17x up and upgrade it's graphics card, etc down the line, though I'm sure that's probably impossible, considering the new gfx cards probably won't work with whatever motherboard is in my laptop, and probably because everything is all soldered in, etc.
> 
> Next time, I'm just gonna stick to a desktop.


 
  
 Yeah. 
  
 At first I almost went with a medium range black friday laptop.  Then I though "might as well get a prebuilt desktop".  Then it was "might as well _build_ a desktop myself."  Yes, the latter option is a bit of a headache at first as there is a learning curve to get past, but after that it actually becomes fun customizing the parts together (picking out which case you like the most, etc.).  It's not as bad you think.  And it definitely gets you the most computer for you dollar.  In hindsight, I can see now that the prebuilt machines are both more expensive _and _slower and less powerful!  No thanks.


----------



## SaLX

1. *Motherboard  Vs. discrete soundcard? *If the Mobo has Optical out and supports Dolby Home Theatre/Dolby headphone, or any virtualised surround then yes you'll be able to output the 2ch PCM signal to your external DAC. They all do it. Dolby Home Theatre is the improved version (more customisable) of DH as you'll know and is featured with the Xonar Phoebus Sound Card. Of course check this, but if anything can output analog it'll do the same via SPDIF with the same DSP's, EQ control etc.
  
 2. *Soundcard PCI Vs. PCI-E?* Always PCI-E, as PCI (the longer slot) is being phased out.
  
 3. *FiiO D3 Vs. amping the analog outs from sound card?* Best left to others - D3 is meant to be very good but your mobo may be just as good. Double amping I'm told req's a clean, low gain and low distortion amp.
  
 4. *Which CPU platform should I go with, and what's a decent motherboard for it? *Go Intel. It's _the_ cookie cutter/no brainer goto choice. That is if you're gaming on it - otherwise stick to your spec. 
  
 Seriously...I have the 3570K (more expensive) and easily overclocked it to 4.2 ghz. Using my Asus P8Z77's included AI Suite software it was a doddle to overclock (though I went into the BIOS to do it in the end).  The cheapest Gigabyte or Asus Mobo's will be perfectly fine. Maybe go for the replacement Intel CPU i5-4670K - same price. As for future upgrading.. well I'm happy my Asus will have a decent shelf life. . You only need max 8gB of ram for everything bar photo editing and other stuff.. games atm only use 4gb so 8gb is ideally where you want to be. All your component choices are good. EDIT - lol/.## you just had to be into photo-editing.
  
 Hopefully others can weigh in on this. Point 4 is beyond argument for gaming - sorry all you AMD fans.


----------



## chicolom

mad lust envy said:


> If I were you, I'd wait for the Steam consoles. They'll be computers too....I think.
> 
> Steam is the future.... for my wallet.


 
  
 Steam Machines sound pretty cool. 
  
 What _really _sounds cool is the SteamOS.  A free operating system for PCs that's designed _strictly _for gaming?  No need for Windows?  Shut up and take my money Valve.  
  
 I hope it will bring some of what you and both love about consoles (the simplicity and hassle free experience) to PC.


----------



## chicolom

> Originally Posted by *SaLX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> If the Mobo has Optical out and supports Dolby Home Theatre/Dolby headphone, or any virtualised surround then yes you'll be able to output the 2ch PCM signal to your external DAC. They all do it.
> *That's great to hear!*
> ...


----------



## AvroArrow

chicolom said:


> Anyways, I have a couple PC audio questions:
> 
> Does anyone know if these types of boards are even CAPABLE of outputting their encoded DSP of choice (like Dolby Headphone) over their optical outputs -> e.g. the same way the the Xonar devices can?
> 
> ...


----------



## AvroArrow

Doh, looks like I got ninja'd by SaLX while I was typing up my extensive wall of text.  One more tidbit for you to chew on.
  
 Although my current rig is an AMD (o/c'ed Phenom II x6 1090T, Sabertooth 990FX, 16GB 1866 RAM, etc), I agree with him that if you want maximum overclockability and/or gaming performance now, Intel is the way to go.  That being said, it will cost a LOT more if you want an overclockable Ivy Bridge CPU and motherboard.  A i5-3570k CPU which is the cheapest unlocked Ivy Bridge is about $225 USD at newegg.  That is 1/3 of your current COMPLETE build.  And that's just the CPU.  
  
 The other thing with Intel is that they love playing the new socket game every couple years.  e.g. if you get an i5-3570k and a Z87 Z77 motherboard now _(I keep mixing up Haswell & Ivy Bridge numbers)_, do NOT expect to be able to buy another faster CPU to plop into the motherboard in 1-2 years like you can with an AMD combo.  Although I have read that AMD is finally going away from the old socket AM3+ with their next major architecture change.
  
 Another recommendation I have is to get a 120GB SSD for a boot drive if you don't already have one you can reuse in this new box.  It will make a night and day difference that is well worth the ~$100 USD cost.  I'd suggest a Plextor M5S 128GB or Crucial M500 120GB or something else Marvell controller based.


----------



## chicolom

Good call on the colored text.
  
  
 Quote:


avroarrow said:


> You should be able to migrate a PCIe soundcard to your next motherboard upgrade down the line.  You can't do that with a PCI soundcard since a lot of the current motherboards are starting to leave out the PCI slot altogether.  And if you go with a PCIe soundcard w/Dolby, you won't have to compromise the other features of the motherboard just because you want the onboard sound optical output.
> 
> *It's starting to sound like a PCI-E card like the Xonar DGX would be the simpliest and cheapest route (I've tentatively added it to my Christmas list ).  It seems like it's mainly the medium to higher end motherboards with the onboard dolby support, and I don't think I need/want to pay the premiums on those boards just to get that onboard Dolby.   Plus it'd be nice to be able to yank the external sound card and reuse it if you go through a motherboard/socket change.*
> 
> ...


----------



## chicolom

> Originally Posted by *AvroArrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> I agree with him that if you want maximum overclockability and/or gaming performance now, Intel is the way to go.  That being said, it will cost a LOT more if you want an overclockable Ivy Bridge CPU and motherboard.  A i5-3570k CPU which is the cheapest unlocked Ivy Bridge is about $225 USD at newegg.  That is 1/3 of your current COMPLETE build.  And that's just the CPU.
> ...


----------



## AvroArrow

chicolom said:


> *It's starting to sound like a PCI-E card like the Xonar DGX would be the simpliest and cheapest route (I've tentatively added it to my Christmas list ).  It seems like it's mainly the medium to higher end motherboards with the onboard dolby support, and I don't think I need/want to pay the premiums on those boards just to get that onboard Dolby.   Plus it'd be nice to be able to yank the external sound card and reuse it if you go through a motherboard/socket change.*
> 
> Yeah, a PCIe soundcard w/Dolby is the most "modular" approach.
> 
> ...


----------



## SaLX

Absolutely +++1 on a SSD.. _such a huge_ difference it makes - get a 60GB main (boot) SSD drive and an ultra cheap storage HDD drive. SSD's just make the whole computing experience more liquid.  +1 on all of Avro's other points too.
  
 A DGX - yes it'd be good and the easiest, but it doesn't sport the best of DAC's really, but nobody ever complains about it either. If your Mobo supports Dolby Theatre v4 however then highly probably it'll have _at least _as good a DAC as the Xonar if not better. DHT v4 hasn't been widely released at all but I'd jump on it if I wasn't a SBZ fan. You can always add an external cheap/expensive DAC with optical later on down the line and still use the proprietary software for the DSP/EQ etc for time being (I'm going to be buying an Audio-GD 11.32 soon). Or just connect your HP into it and be done. You've got plenty options. (Avro lol.. sorry about the inb4 mate! btw - you ultra sure about needing hacked drivers???)
  
 For photo editing - these days CPU's will make short work of any single RAW file you lob at it. Only in video processing really would CPU speed make a difference: So yes.. get an Intel CPU i5-4670K (or 3570k) and compatible mobo if you're into gaming. As has been pointed out - the cheapest motherboard plus a DGX would net you the best gains/price point. Ultra expensive mobo's with 'lot's of bit's' are an absurd waste of space just to get the best onboard sound chip.
  
 Overclocking: The Asus AI suite in Windows automatically tuned my Asus board up to 4.2 Ghz in a couple of clicks - amazing SW. I only did it in BIOS cos I thought myself a tech failure to cheat like this, yet there it is: zero net improvement doing it the hard way. Cools the same, clocks the same, underclocks the same on idle and is thermally as efficient. It's that good - sorry tech-heads. Do it. Your aftermarket cooler will happily cope.
  
 Your graphics card...... this guide is always pretty much bang on the money: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-card-review,3107.html


----------



## chicolom

> Originally Posted by *AvroArrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> 
> During the initial phase of tweaking for a stable overclock, you will probably encounter some hard locks which may require pulling the PSU plug a few times, reset BIOS back to stock settings and re-entering them all AGAIN after a CMOS reset to get it to boot.  If you don't have the patience for that during the beginning then I would recommend against an overclockable setup.
> ...


----------



## chicolom

> Originally Posted by *AvroArrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Unless you spent $400+ on your video card, your *FPS will always be limited by the video card, not CPU so the AMD FX-8320 will be fine*.  An i5 3570k would give you a few more FPS, but we're talking maybe 5% more since your bottleneck is the 7870.  I assume you're gaming at 1920x1080?  And not something like 2560x1440?


 


salx said:


> DHT v4 hasn't been widely released at all but I'd jump on it if I wasn't a SBZ fan.
> *Does the Xonar DGX have DHT v4? If not, are there any "affordable" cards that do, apart from that ridiculous "Phoebus" card?*
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SaLX

The Xonar DGX, in fact all the internal Xonars all just do vanilla Dolby Headphone. The new Xonar U7 does DHTv4 : http://rog.asus.com/229922013/news/xonar-u7-usb-sound-with-headphone-amp/ Shame Asus couldn't re-invigorate their entire line of Xonars with this SW as it looks good.
  
 I'd give the nod to Avro on the tech here tbh... thing is though, I'd buy what I just recommended - kind of like getting a powerful amp instead of something that'll 'just do the job'. Intel is where it's at in gaming CPU's - all GFX card reviews are done on Intel platforms, unless they're trying to be a bit different. I'm sure Avro is perhaps actually correct on this.... but why not give yourself a bit of latitude in case you get a better GFX card down the line. The one you've chosen is solid though.
  
 That case is very very nice - remember that Avro frequents www.silentpcreview.com - think of it's denizens as monkish cult member types - robes, skulls and candles 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Anyways -good choices all down the line Chicolom (Intel).


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

DHTv4 is basically just bundling all Dolby Headphone modes into one slider, allowing you to choose how much processing and reverb you want. From what I have experienced, DH2 is still the best tradeoff, and DH1 is the best fidelity-wise. My best guess is that the slider on its lowest setting is equivalent to DH1.


----------



## lttlfld

Delete this post... I was browsing and fat fingered a submit


----------



## SaLX

I would think if you're building a rig right now you'd aim for a pretty decent frame rate in Battlefield 4 as a general bar in performance: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/battlefield-4-graphics-card-performance,3634-7.html. This is based off the older i5 2550K, but it's pretty much the same. Your graphics card does well here and I'd _like_ to think your CPU should do well too.


----------



## NamelessPFG

avroarrow said:


> Unless you spent $400+ on your video card, your FPS will always be limited by the video card, not CPU so the AMD FX-8320 will be fine.  An i5 3570k would give you a few more FPS, but we're talking maybe 5% more since your bottleneck is the 7870.  I assume you're gaming at 1920x1080?  And not something like 2560x1440?
> 
> No, never go liquid cooling unless you go hard core custom ($$$).  Those sub $100 All-In-One liquid units are waaaay more trouble than they're worth (water leaks) and ironically much noisier (fan and pump motor noise) than a well designed and spec'ed air cooling setup.  I frequent www.silentpcreview.com and have based my last 3 PC re-builds/partial upgrades from their various reviews and recommendations and have been very happy.  I need quiet because my PC is in my bedroom and when I need to leave the PC on to do..."stuff" overnight I need it to be quiet enough that I can still sleep.  If your PC is NOT in your sleeping area, then it's far less of a concern.  The Fractal Arc Midi R2 isn't bad, but I would have got a Fractal R4 for the quieter build.  Granted, even on sale, it's almost double the cost of the Arc Midi, and if quiet isn't your top priority, there's a lot more flexibility in parts selection.


 
  
 The first part about most gaming builds being GPU-limited is true in most cases...but then you run into something like Civilization V or DCS World that is HEAVILY CPU-limited and bound mostly by single-threaded performance, which is where AMD's Bulldozer-based architectures really suffer. Then there's the matter of emulation, if you wanna run PCSX2 or Dolphin...
  
 Granted, most people probably don't care about such things, but for those of us that do, it's kinda frustrating when the most demanding moments really make the framerates take a nosedive and throwing more GPU power at it won't solve the problem at all.
  
 As for liquid-cooling, I've done it over this year (bought it in preparation for Haswell, used it to cool my ol' Kentsfield Q6600 in the meantime, and both run HOT), and while the performance improvement is astounding to the point where I never see myself going back to huge tower heatsinks ever again...so is the price, as you noted.
  
 Going by my own experience, you'll probably wind up spending at least $200 for a CPU loop with a Laing D5 pump (powerful, reliable, and quiet if mounted properly, but costs at least $70 new) and a 3x120mm radiator, probably more if you start buying things like combo reservoir/pump tops, compression fittings (which cost $4-6 each, need two for each component, and the most basic of loops will still need 6 to 8 of them; do the math), and especially quick-disconnect compression fittings if you don't want to drain the whole loop every time you change something.
  
 The good news, at least, is that most of that equipment will last for years and can be re-used. About all you'd have to change would be the waterblocks themselves, since mounting system specifications keep changing over time. Think of it as an investment in cooling that'll pay off again and again, if you're an overclocker who likes to get the most out of the hardware you purchased.
  
 P.S.: It's a damn shame what politics did to the development and production of your namesake.


----------



## AvroArrow

Man... this multi-quoting/posting is getting a bit unwieldly so I'll just type this straight up instead of quoting.
  
*chicolom*, Technically onboard Reaktek w/SPDIF out with hacked drivers + Fiio D3k is the cheapest route for DH through optical to an external DAC.  It's actually not that hard, install hacked drivers, reboot, install DH control panel, reboot, done.  The Xonar DGX route is more officially supported as the guy releasing the hacked drivers could quit releasing drivers at any time.  And I believe the DGX is currently about $40 - $10MIR at most places.
  
 Man... I wish I had a Microcenter nearby.  That i5-4670k+Asus Z87-A bundle for $320 is a great price.  The best price my local computer shop has for that bundle is $390 CAD (~$360USD).  If you're okay with spending another $150 on your CPU+mobo then just get that.  It is more powerful, and will probably last you through a few video card upgrades if you overclock the CPU.
  
 A SSD boot drive will literally transform your computing experience where you will experience almost no lag after clicking and waaaay faster load times when browsing, running photoshop, office, etc and I'm not even talking about gaming.  Actually, it probably has less of an impact on gaming since the only time a SSD will benefit gaming is at the loading at the start and at new level loads, the rest is bottlenecked at the CPU/GPU level.  That and SSD storage is still too expensive per GB to throw your entire Steam gaming folder onto one.  My Steam folder is actually on an old WD 500GB 7200rpm drive while I boot off a Crucial m4 128GB.  I've got another 1TB 7200rpm, 1.5TB 5400rpm, 2TB 5400rpm drives for my other storage needs... plus I'm part way through rebuilding/upgrading my file server to 12TB.

*SaLX*, a 60GB boot drive would be a bit tight for space.  Win7 x64 alone will eat about 20GB by itself, and throw on some Office and Photoshop, a 60/64GB drive won't last very long.  And the 120/128GB SSDs are a better bang for buck $/GB wise vs 60/64GB.  You only need hacked drivers if your m/b doesn't officially support DTS/DH.  And surprisingly, my Sabertooth 990FX (#2 most expensive Asus AMD m/b) does not come with DTS or DH... only some cheap and lame Realtek vitual headphone driver.  I guess they spent all the money on the fancy circuitry and power regulation for O/Cing instead of licensing DTS for the audio and they probably assume that if I'm spending this much on an O/C m/b that I'd probably have a separate sound card.  Also, you're right about the Asus AI o/cing... but only relative to Intel setups.  The AI is not so smart when it comes to older power hungry AMD hardware like mine.  My PC at work is an i5-3570k on Asus Z77V-Pro and the AI o/c it 4.1GHz easily and it's stable (it's my work PC after all).  And I do NOT wear a robe (unless you count bathrobe occasionally) and use skulls and candles (fire hazard).  But the whole quiet, dark chamber, and chanting do apply. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 

*NamelessPFG*, you're absolutely right.  I was digging through reviews and roundups to find where I read about the GPU being the limit in most cases and it was here:
 http://www.anandtech.com/show/6934/choosing-a-gaming-cpu-single-multigpu-at-1440p
 That was for the purposes of gaming at 2560x1440, not 1920x1080, so it's not that relevant here.  I did find another link with info that is more relevant in spirit rather than testing with the exact hardware, but they do test at 1080p:
 http://techreport.com/review/23246/inside-the-second-gaming-performance-with-today-cpus
  
 Yes, I hate our spinelss Prime Minister at the time...not that I was even born back then, we could have beat you Americans to the first super cruising all weather interceptor as well as a bunch of other innovations.... and it would have taken NASA a LOT longer to land a man on the moon without all those ex-Avro engineers.  Funny thing is there's another Avro_Arrow on this site that I didn't realize was there when I registered and I almost used the same avatar picture as him.
  
*chicolom*, depending on the game engine, the CPU can impact FPS by a lot, even with a lower/mid-tiered video card, like Civ V as NamelessPFG pointed out.  If you compare the FX-8150 and i5-3570k  from that Techreport article, here are the following avg FPS boost for jumping on the Intel: Skyrim +52%, Arkham City +42%, Crysis 2 +14%, Battlefield 3 +4%.  They are using a Radeon 7950 in the article which is the next step up from your 7870 so the info should be fairly relevant.  
  
 Whew... lots of typing...
  
 The TLR version 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 of my recommendation is that if you can afford another $150, return the AMD CPU/mb and get the i5-4670k+Asus Z87-A bundle from microcenter, drop the $30 LED controller if you have to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  It will remove any realistic CPU bottleneck for your build.  Skip the DGX for now to save money, install the hacked Realtek drivers to get DH out the SPDIF port, get a Fiio D3k for the optical DAC to feed your amps.  Done.  When you can afford it later on, buy the DGX, SSD (will have to re-install Windows again, ugh), etc to round out the build, maybe a 2nd 120mm fan for the Hyper-212 for push/pull config for better cooling (I run a Hyper-212+ w/2x 1450rpm Gentle Typhoon w/ZM-MFC1 fan controller on my rig).
  
 And after you get it all put together and powered up, do NOT overclock yet.  Install Windows and your other apps/games and run it for a couple weeks on auto/default clocks to make sure that all your parts are good and stable, especially the RAM.  I spent more than a whole weekend helping troubleshoot my friend's new constantly blue screening AMD cpu/mb/ram upgrade a few months back... turns out 1 of 4 sticks of RAM (from a 4x4GB kit) was faulty and memtest86+ did NOT detect it, even after multiple 12hr test runs... arrggghh... and this was all running at stock speeds.  As soon as you start overclocking, it becomes exponentially harder to troubleshoot a flakey system.  So make sure all your components are good and stable before venturing into the overclocking world.  It will save you time in the long run... believe me... I've been overclocking since the legendary Celeron 300A days... and I still forget sometimes.


----------



## SaLX

avroarrow said:


> The TLR version
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 This. Makes perfect sense - nice one Avro. If Chicolom could possibly squeeze in an SSD into the build (plus the HDD) that'd be sweet.


----------



## chicolom

Alright.  Awesome.  Your reasoning makes perfect since (thanks for the detailed post Avro!).
  
 I'll return the AMD+board and pick up a Haswell *i5-4670K *instead.  It will be a better CPU and will last longer into the future.
  
  
 I will NOT be dropping the $30 NZXT Hue Led controller however. It's CRUCIAL to the build!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 A windowed case with NO case lighting will compromise the entire system!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 Plus it will match perfectly with my display's multi-color bias lighting.
  
  
  
 The Asus Z87-A seems like a logical choice.  Let's _assume _for a moment though that there's a strong chance that "Santa" will be bringing me a Xonar DGX and a FiiO D3K for Christmas.  Knowing that, would you change boards?
  
 Some options:
  
 1)  *Asus Z87-A* bundle = $320. 
 What Avro recommended, and seems perfectly logical.  Asus seems to have a solid reputation and may have a little better handle on Haswell than others.  Asus might have a nicer software suite/BIOs as well (I wouldn't know)...
  
  
 2)  *MSI Z87 G45 "Gaming"* bundle  =  $337. 
 For +$17 more than the Asus, but this board comes with onboard Sound Blaster Cinema (SBX Pro).  So I'd have _two_ different DSP options to play with (+ Xonar DGX).  Oh, and it has a dragon on it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 3)  *MSI Z87-G41* Bundle = $265
 This is a cheaper Z87 ATX board.  Winds up being ~$50 cheaper than the Asus Z87-A board.  But is it _too_ _cheap_?  I know that the motherboards are one area where you _don't_ want to overspend, seeing as how frequent socket changes make things obsolete and "future-proofing" is impossible - but is this considered underspending?  I don't want to cheap out if I'll regret it later, and I don't know if it's compromised in areas (like PWM/VRM etc.)  It would free up a bit more money for something like an SSD or more poweful GPU though...
  
  
 4)  _Any other Z87 board (preferably under ~$150_) Here's Micro Center's selection...
  
  
 As a legitimate building newb with zero motherboard experience, I unfortunately don't know the motherboard brand reputations, how the PWM/VRM, etc. differs between them, or who has the best and most mature software/bios/OCing implementation.


----------



## OverlordMittenz

chicolom said:


> Alright.  Awesome.  Your reasoning makes perfect since (thanks for the detailed post Avro!).
> 
> I'll return the AMD+board and pick up a Haswell *i5-4670K *instead.  I will be a better CPU and will last longer into the future.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Okay, so finally I can help on this forum.   I'd personally go with the ASUS board, maybe even the HERO.  However, I would suggest you shop around a bit for boards and find one that fits your needs the best.  With Haswell, overclocking is not mobo dependent like it used to be. For instance if you didn't have x board with x processor you could expect suboptimal results.  With Haswell having the FIVR on board, this becomes less of an issue.  So as long as you buy a board from a quality brand that you trust with the features that you need, you'll be golden.


----------



## Totoori

Hi there,
  
 Looks like I'm going to grab a pair of MA900s. I have a ASUS Maximus VI Hero which is apparently known for its quality sound. I do not have a soundcard or any amp or anything.

 Primarily for PC gaming and music. They will not leave my desk.
  
 Will I need a soundcard or amp or anything?
  
 Also, you say they are sold for $150-170, I can't find this anywhere. The lowest I can find them is $200 at Amazon currently, which also unfortunately has $40 shipping to Canada. Any better place to purchase them with reasonable shipping to Canada? Or even from Canada itself would be great. Cheapest they seem to be on Amazon ever is about $185, and that is very rare.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## OverlordMittenz

totoori said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Looks like I'm going to grab a pair of MA900s. I have a ASUS Maximus VI Hero which is apparently known for its quality sound. I do not have a soundcard or any amp or anything.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 The formula is the one known for it's "sound quality," however it is not worth the premium of 100 bucks. You can easily pick up a used Titanium HD or something like the Essence STX used for a little more.  Is there any particular reason you are looking at those headphones versus something like the AKG Q701 or similar headphones?  I do not have experience with MA900s, so I can't comment on them.  
  
 As for needing a sound card, it will definitely help.  I couldn't believe the sound quality increase on my Superlux 661B's when I added the Essence STX.  30 buck headphones sounded better than anything I had or heard before, until I upgraded to the AKG Q701's.  (Still getting into audio. ) I also have the ASUS VI Hero, so I can tell you a sound card is definitely necessary if you want to use DH or similar technology because ASUS did not license it for the ROG boards, sadly.
  
 EDIT: For grammar and schtuff.


----------



## Totoori

Thanks. And yes I have looked at those. I'm still actually torn between 701s/702s/annies, MA900 and AX900x. I actually went to purchase the q701s but Amazon would not ship them to me, so I gave up. No place in Canada has them for a decent price and I can't find anywhere else that really ships to Canada.
  
 For some reason MA900s are okay to ship here but Amazon will not do anything AKG. $200 seems like a lot to spend on a sound card, but I guess it's necessary eh? There are some options at $80 SBlaster Z, Xonar DX7.1. 
  
 I'm at the point where I really don't care which headphones I get as long as they are good for the price I get them at. I'd prefer some sort of AKG or MA900s but I've just made up my mind so many times only to find shipping to be $80 or not even shipping to Canada.


----------



## AvroArrow

chicolom said:


> Alright.  Awesome.  Your reasoning makes perfect since (thanks for the detailed post Avro!).
> 
> I'll return the AMD+board and pick up a Haswell *i5-4670K *instead.  It will be a better CPU and will last longer into the future.
> 
> ...


 
  


overlordmittenz said:


> With Haswell, overclocking is not mobo dependent like it used to be. For instance if you didn't have x board with x processor you could expect suboptimal results.  With Haswell having the FIVR on board, this becomes less of an issue.  So as long as you buy a board from a quality brand that you trust with the features that you need, you'll be golden.


 
I didn't know that about the new Haswell chips.  The last time I did any extensive research was to decide between a Sandy bridge or Ivy bridge based setup for my work PC, and those were still dependent on picking a board with good power circuitry for good overclocking.  
  


totoori said:


> Thanks. And yes I have looked at those. I'm still actually torn between 701s/702s/annies, MA900 and AX900x. I actually went to purchase the q701s but Amazon would not ship them to me, so I gave up. No place in Canada has them for a decent price and I can't find anywhere else that really ships to Canada.
> 
> For some reason MA900s are okay to ship here but Amazon will not do anything AKG. $200 seems like a lot to spend on a sound card, but I guess it's necessary eh? There are some options at $80 SBlaster Z, Xonar DX7.1.
> 
> I'm at the point where I really don't care which headphones I get as long as they are good for the price I get them at. I'd prefer some sort of AKG or MA900s but I've just made up my mind so many times only to find shipping to be $80 or not even shipping to Canada.


 
  
I don't remember if I mentioned it in my reply in the other thread but if you decide on any of those AKGs (Q701/K702/K712) you will need to budget for an AMP because an onboard soundcard or lower end add-on sound card will not be enough to drive it.  From what I've read, the MA900 will _not require_ an amp.  It may sound better with an amp, but it doesn't require it.  The AKGs will require a good amp (something $100+) to sound good.  
  
My suggestion if you want the virtual surround for PC gaming (Dolby Headphone/CMSS-3D/etc) is to buy the cheapest sound card with an Optical (SPDIF) output with one of those surround techs, an external DAC with Optical input, and an Amp, or a DAC/Amp combo with optical input.  This way you get the benefits of virtual headphone surround AND audiophile grade DAC/Amp.
  
This is my personal setup:
  
onboard Realtek ALC892 (hacked DH) Optical OUT > Audioengine D1 > AKG K702.65 or Sennheiser HD598 or ATH-AD700.
  
You could replace the Realtek with an Asus Xonar DGX ($40) for official DH support, which I will probably do once the hacked drivers are no longer available.  I also plan to get a Schiit Vali amp in the near future so it would go Realtek > Audioengine D1 > Schiit Vali > AKG K702.65 for some tube goodness.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  The Audioengine D1 may not be the best amp for the Annies but I needed the Optical input for the DAC and the combined amp isn't half bad, still sounds light years better than my old Realtek headphone jack > Plantronics Audio 90 headset.  
  
Also if you're not in a hurry to get whatever headphones you decide on, keep in mind we're only 3 weeks away from all those Boxing Week sales.  Just keep checking www.redflagdeals.com for which place has what deals.  ncix.com and canadacomputers.com carry AKG (not the Annies or K712Pro) and both have semi-regular sales, amazon.ca is hit and miss, but I did manage to snag my HD598s for $140 shipped thanks to RFD and Amazon.ca lightning sale.  avshop.ca occasionally has some decent sales (I got my AKG K550 there for $200 shipped).  As for American shops that will ship up here, razordogaudio.com is great to deal with, offers USPS shipping for $30 (I got my Annies from them) so you don't get raped by UPS/FedEx for brokerage/processing fees.  I have no clue where to get cheaper Sony MA-900s, they were never on my radar.  The design doesn't look very comfortable for my big head and glasses.


----------



## FightCat

Hello,
  
 Been wandering MLE's and some other threads a lot lately about what to go for.
  
 I had a shortlist of:
  
 Philips Fidelio X1
 Sony MDR-MA900
 Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro
 AKG K702 65th Ann. Edition
 and a newcomer HD650 for I've found a second-hand virtually-unused one for around 350$ (in Turkey)
  
 There are some people that tell me to go for HD650 whereas MLE suggests that it does not have the best soundstage/positioning and that it would definitely need an amp. I'm also sure to have watched a review telling that HD650 would work with portable media players.
  
 Anyway, my priority is Music > Games > Movies, I love bass, so I'm baffled, I'm changing lanes everyday.
  
 Please help.


----------



## chicolom

> Originally Posted by *AvroArrow* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Ahh... so you're going for *BLING*.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Interesting.  I don't actually run them blue like that though, it was just for show for the pic.  99% of the time I leave it on white.  Most of the time though they're off and I use my alternate bias light which is a GE reveal 21" bulb behind the TV.  It's more of a soft warm color.  I mainly only use the LED lights when gaming or watching a show. 
  
 I predict I'll have the NZXT Hue case light set to white and most likely turned down to the lowest brightness setting, so it will give a more subtle illumination inside the case.
  
  
  
 Quote:


overlordmittenz said:


> Okay, so finally I can help on this forum.   I'd personally go with the ASUS board, maybe even the HERO.  However, I would suggest you shop around a bit for boards and find one that fits your needs the best. * With Haswell, overclocking is not mobo dependent like it used to be*. For instance if you didn't have x board with x processor you could expect suboptimal results.  With Haswell having the FIVR on board, this becomes less of an issue.  So as long as you buy a board from a quality brand that you trust with the features that you need, you'll be golden.


 
  
  
 I've read similar things about Haswell being less dependent on the particular board for overclocking than in the past.  I've seen people have some problems with the budget boards on older sockets/chipsets, but it seems that's not so much of a problem with Haswell.
  
 That's why I wanted to just check out all the options a bit more for settling.


----------



## chicolom

fightcat said:


> Hello,
> 
> Been wandering MLE's and some other threads a lot lately about what to go for.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I'm with MLE on the HD650.  While it's actually pretty decent in term of positioning and imaging, the whole soundstage feels a little intimate and tight, which is not really what you want for gaming.  You want expansive and open.  I would avoid the HD650s.
  
 Since you mentioned you love bass, the X1 should definitely be on your short list.  While the DT990 also has potent bass, the rest of the signature is too cold and the mids are lacking - making me not a fan.  The DT990 aslo needs an amp while the X1 is much less demanding for amping.
  
  
 Here my favorite recommendations in order of price:
  
 $-HD558 > MA900 > Q701 > X1 > K712-$$$


----------



## Evshrug

Oooooh ma gerd...
Chico, I'd like to help because I do a lot of the same things as you, and built my first computer two years ago. However, I'd be quoting a ton and mostly others have said what I'd have touched on. Also, it's late and I'm not so sure how clearly I can express myself, but I want to help. So I'll just add a little.

PCI vs PCI-x
Newer is good, but not really any better or worse for sound cards. I think actually Nameless would know this best, but I think I once read that PCI had less jitter? Not much in it.

FiiO D03k DAC
I haven't heard this DAC, but is it really better than the other DACs you have, or even something like a SoundBlaster Z or DGX and their DACs? Those two soundcards definitely have optical outputs too (and the U3), and line-outs (though I can confirm that, oddly, SBX headphone cannot be output through the line-out). Personally I went for straight-forward and just amp the headphone-out of my SoundBlaster Z.

Overclocking
Overclocking is overclocking. I think a lot of computer guys will disagree with me, but consider the option of NOT overclocking. How many frames do you gain from the added $$ in motherboard, CPU, cooling system, PSU, and power bill? Oh, don't forget the special monitors you need to buy to get higher than a 60hz refresh rate... usually they are a trade-off in ultimate color reproduction you would want for photography. Add all that up... how close would that be to a new MoBo and CPU down the Line once CPUs get even more power efficient and quick anyway? It's kinda like buying a top of the line graphics card for $500 when next year's $200 graphics card will be as good, while all you're really doing is chasing theoretical FPS. I opinion that mid-range is where computer sweet-spot is at, if you consider the pace of computer advancement. I run high or max settings on my Sandy i3 CPU with GTX660 GPU in most games I play today, like BF3, StarCraft 2 HotS, Tomb Raider. I mean to upgrade to an i5 CPU, but mostly just for SC2 when there are a lot of units on the screen. Aperture and Photoshop are basically real-time... I admit I don't do much video though. Overclocking does give you a bit more ooomf as your system gets dated, but it also shortens the life of the CPU, and it doesn't beat hardware improvements.

SSD
Definitely do this. Big big win for system responsiveness, apps opening, saving... This would also really help with video editing, though of course space is limited. But trust me, once you get one, you'll want to juggle whatever in-progress work you have to your SSD drive.


----------



## chicolom

evshrug said:


> Oooooh ma gerd...
> 
> FiiO D03k DAC
> I haven't heard this DAC, but is it really better than the other DACs you have, or even something like a SoundBlaster Z or DGX and their DACs? Those two soundcards definitely have optical outputs too (and the U3), and line-outs (though I can confirm that, oddly, SBX headphone cannot be output through the line-out). Personally I went for straight-forward and just amp the headphone-out of my SoundBlaster Z.
> ...


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

You guys make me wanna build a good gaming rig for the price. Not that it'd happen any time soon, but having been a steam gamer now for the past year... yeah.

 I'm 1080p all the way (I like consistency, and the rig would be connected to my HDTV, as well as a monitor).

I'm guessing 1080p rigs wouldn't be too hard now, though future proofing even at that resolution would be nice.

I really want an SBX Pro device. I have a good feeling they'd be superior to Dolby Headphone and THX TS...or at least a marriage in quality between the two which would be ideal.

Anyways, anyone with an Omni they'd like to let me borrow for review? Shipping isn't expensive on a small device like that...


----------



## chicolom

Sell that Alienware laptop and you're good to go.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Man... the ability to play *cough*atwork*cough* is worth all this, lol.


----------



## lttlfld

Are there any strong opinions here on the eclaro soundcard?


----------



## chicolom

Just smuggle a console in your pants to and from work.  If you happen to already be well endowed, none will be the wiser.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I'd smuggle my full desktop rig. Hahaha.

And I did bring the ps4 to work one day...

h34r:


----------



## stv014

evshrug said:


> PCI vs PCI-x
> Newer is good, but not really any better or worse for sound cards. I think actually Nameless would know this best, but I think I once read that PCI had less jitter?


 
  
 It does not (at least not due to the interface itself, rather than implementation details on specific cards), and only very bad hardware has audible jitter anyway. The belief that PCI has inherently lower jitter is probably based on the fact that the Xonar Essence ST has a clocking circuit that is missing on its PCIe counterpart; however, this difference is unrelated to the use of a PCI vs. PCIe interface. So, it is best to decide based on the availability of compatible slots on the motherboard. It could also be an advantage if the card does not have to be installed very close to the GPU, which runs hot, and may be a source of interference.
  


evshrug said:


> FiiO D03k DAC
> I haven't heard this DAC, but is it really better than the other DACs you have, or even something like a SoundBlaster Z or DGX and their DACs?


 
   
I am not sure how much difference is there between the D3 and D03k, but at least the D3 (which I know uses a relatively low end DAC chip, and measured more similarly to good onboard audio than a decent sound card) is not normally an upgrade even from a cheap sound card. Although I do not have the SBZ, from its specs it seems it has a DAC that is likely better than the FiiO. I would only use D03k (with optical input) if the sound card has interference problems.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

The D03K works just fine, and I could barely tell a hint of a diff between it, the ODAC, my E17, and my Audio-GD NFB-5 or Compass 2's sabre ES9018. The differences are there, and they're too minute. $30 for an optical dac is well worth it. Not many dacs with an optical input in the price range.

Most of it is hype and expectation bias. The D03k works very well.

In any case, he wants something to carry the Dolby Headphone/other virtual surround signal through the optical signal to his audiophile amp. The D03k is one of the only ones to do it for cheap.

For non-virtual surround applications, he'll be using his legit dac.


----------



## chicolom

mad lust envy said:


> In any case, he wants something to carry the Dolby Headphone/other virtual surround signal through the optical signal to his audiophile amp. The D03k is one of the only ones to do it for cheap.
> 
> For non-virtual surround applications, he'll be using his legit dac.


 
  
 Correct.
  
 My ODAC is still my "audiophile" DAC for everything stereo, and the D03K is just too add an optical DAC to my setup to have the option to accept digital signals from soundcard DSPs.
  
 Worst (best?) case scenario is that the soundcard just sounds better, but we'll see.  I wouldn't be surprised if they sound almost indistinguishable though.


----------



## AvroArrow

chicolom said:


> Interesting.  I don't actually run them blue like that though, it was just for show for the pic.  99% of the time I leave it on white.  Most of the time though they're off and I use my alternate bias light which is a GE reveal 21" bulb behind the TV.  It's more of a soft warm color.  I mainly only use the LED lights when gaming or watching a show.
> 
> I predict I'll have the NZXT Hue case light set to white and most likely turned down to the lowest brightness setting, so it will give a more subtle illumination inside the case.


 
  
Ah, okay, you'll be fine then if you're only occasionally exposed to it.  Philips makes a sleep therapy device (that uses... blue LEDs) that my friend bought from Costco, he uses it to recover from bad jet lag and it works.   
  


evshrug said:


> PCI vs PCI-x





> Just to nitpick a bit, it's PCIe or PCI-E or PCI express.  PCI-X is an old 64-bit PCI standard slot that was used almost exclusively in servers (typically used for SCSI controllers).  I work with servers on a daily basis so I've used them before.





> Overclocking
> Overclocking is overclocking. I think a lot of computer guys will disagree with me, but consider the option of NOT overclocking. How many frames do you gain from the added $$ in motherboard, CPU, cooling system, PSU, and power bill? Oh, don't forget the special monitors you need to buy to get higher than a 60hz refresh rate... usually they are a trade-off in ultimate color reproduction you would want for photography. Add all that up... how close would that be to a new MoBo and CPU down the Line once CPUs get even more power efficient and quick anyway? It's kinda like buying a top of the line graphics card for $500 when next year's $200 graphics card will be as good, while all you're really doing is chasing theoretical FPS. I opinion that mid-range is where computer sweet-spot is at, if you consider the pace of computer advancement. I run high or max settings on my Sandy i3 CPU with GTX660 GPU in most games I play today, like BF3, StarCraft 2 HotS, Tomb Raider. I mean to upgrade to an i5 CPU, but mostly just for SC2 when there are a lot of units on the screen. Aperture and Photoshop are basically real-time... I admit I don't do much video though. Overclocking does give you a bit more ooomf as your system gets dated, but it also shortens the life of the CPU, and it doesn't beat hardware improvements.





> I don't know about you but I don't overclock the CPU for additional FPS in games, I overclock for faster performance in everything else, whether it's compressing stuff, encoding/transcoding videos and audio, batch applying photoshop filters, running multiple VMs, etc.  Faster performance in all those other tasks is the reason I overclock the CPU (not to be confused with overclocking the GPU/video card).





> Don't confuse the choice of monitor with CPU or even GPU overclocking, completely different topic.





> As for additional cost, yes it costs more than a budget non-OC setup, but not like it's 50% more total cost of the non-OCed speed equivalent.  If he went with the non-OC version of the i5-4670 and a cheaper $100 motherboard, the $50 saved would not buy him a new mid-range Intel CPU with motherboard, not even 3 years later.  The other benefit of picking OC friendly components is that they are almost always of better quality components and construction in order to deal with the stress of OCing.  And guess what, almost all the best bang-for-buck OC components are usually in the mid-range price bracket, never at the top end.  The whole point to OCing is to get near-top end performance for mid-range price.  If you're buying top end components for OCing, you're missing the whole point or have too much money to burn.


 
  


chicolom said:


> *Really the only time I plan on overclocking is when I'm playing a modern/demanding game and want the extra CPU overhead for some extra FPS.  Like you said, I don't need anything above 60fps, as HDMI only supports 60hz anyways.  So anything above that would be overkill so overclocking wouldn't be necessary.*





> *Not sure if you're aware, but you can OC with Power Saving still enabled.  e.g. when the game demands it, run all 4 CPUs at 4.0GHz, and when you're idling on the desktop surfing, it will drop down to 1.6GHz... automatically.  When you OC, you are not stuck at 4.0GHz on all 4 cores all the time.  This used to be true back in the single core CPU days, but not anymore.*





> *I don't think having the option to overclock  really adds that much to the cost though.  You pay just a little more for an unlocked chip (~$10-20 more).  Any decent lower tiered motherboard can overclock, so I'm not paying any extra for a special motherboard.  My power supply was bought for $40, which is perfectly reasonable.  The only extra piece of hardware I'm paying for (apart from the unlocked chip mentioned above) is the better CPU cooler, which it wouldn't hurt to have anyways as the stock coolers are supposedly lousy.  I also get to reuse the cooler over again if/when I upgrade to a newer CPU (and have to deal with another crummy bundled cooler anyways).*





> You actually made some very good component choices for a first time OC build, not to mention scoring some really good deals on some of those parts like the PSU and case, .  The Hyper-212 Evo for instance is the best sub-$50 bang for buck heatsink.  While a Noctua NH-D14 may cool better by another 2-4*C, it's also over 2x the cost of the 212.


 
  


stv014 said:


> It could also be an advantage if the card does not have to be installed very close to the GPU, which runs hot, and may be a source of interference.


 
+1  Try to put the soundcard as far away from the video card as possible to prevent possible heat and RF interference issues.


----------



## chicolom

avroarrow said:


> *Not sure if you're aware, but you can OC with Power Saving still enabled.  e.g. when the game demands it, run all 4 CPUs at 4.0GHz, and when you're idling on the desktop surfing, it will drop down to 1.6GHz... automatically.  When you OC, you are not stuck at 4.0GHz on all 4 cores all the time.  This used to be true back in the single core CPU days, but not anymore*
> 
> *Interesting.  I didn't know that.  *
> *I'll have to look into it.*
> ...


----------



## Evshrug

chicolom said:


> Just smuggle a console in your pants to and from work.  If you happen to already be well endowed, none will be the wiser.



Ah hahahahhaha


Er...

Anyway, more awake now (ought to be, in the middle of my work day). And I don't know exactly what I was on about overclocking... Weird things happen at 4am? Anyway it's usually a small gain for a little more money and power usage, but if you want to do it then it's not drastically different in cost.

The SBX feels a bit more positionally accurate than THX TSP, and I really like it. There's more detail about it on the "Sound Blaster serié Z" thread and plenty of folks who've spent more time with it than me, but with all the other samples I've collected I feel like I ought to figure out how to make one for SBX (and THX). I'm just typically lazy after work 

My SB Z would only fit in the top slot above my video card, but I'm not experiencing any interference. I also am using a Gigabyte motherboard, turns out I absolutely love the powered USB ports that work even when the computer is off.


----------



## AvroArrow

evshrug said:


> Anyway, more awake now (ought to be, in the middle of my work day). And I don't know exactly what I was on about overclocking... Weird things happen at 4am? Anyway it's usually a small gain for a little more money and power usage, but if you want to do it then it's not drastically different in cost.
> 
> My SB Z would only fit in the top slot above my video card, but I'm not experiencing any interference. I also am using a Gigabyte motherboard, turns out I absolutely love the powered USB ports that work even when the computer is off.


 
  
 No worries, and I have to admit I'm a bit touchy when it comes to computers and OCing.  Ever since I started building my own computers back in the 90s, I have never bought a CPU & motherboard combo that wasn't overclockable to get the absolute maximum bang for buck.  My very first build was a Celeron 366 OCed to 550MHz with an Alpha heatsink, which cost maybe 50-60% of what a real Pentium III-550 would have cost for nearly the same performance.
  
 Not sure which Gigabyte board you have but have you tried your PCIe 1x SBZ in a 16x or 8x slot further down the motherboard?  A PCIe 1x card will work fine in a 16x slot, but not the other way around unless you feel like cutting up the slots in your motherboard.


----------



## Evshrug

Yeah, I used to have my entire build memorized, it's listed on PCPartsPicker somewhere. I needed the least expensive hackintosh-compatible build in the time of Sandy Bridge with discrete graphics (and I sprang for an i3), spent a month researching and learning. I'm not a seasoned pro tho, I just know what I learned along the way and what worked for me.

Edit: it's a Gigabyte Z68A-D3H-B3, with an Intel Core i3 1205 CPU (With stock cooler BUT ceramic Arctic Silver thermal paste), 60 GB SSD boot drive, terabyte Seagate HDD, 8GB Kingston HyperBlu 1600 RAM (4gbx2), Asus DirectCU II OC GeForce GTX660 GPU, Soundblaster Z, ThermalTake Dokker case, Rosewill 650W "Bronze Certified" PSU, extra 170mm silent top-exhaust fan, Win8 and OS X Mavericks, a Logitech G400 mouse and Wacom Capture tablet, Microsoft Arc wireless keyboard, and... a red, white, and blue lighting scheme.

I know the PCIe slot should work, but for some reason the back plate was just barely not fitting between the case and MoBo edge. I fiddled with it for a while, but after a while I just tried the other slot. It fit perfect, so I just was like "Well... I guess it was meant to be." Actually made cable management slightly easier on the outside of the case.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

Over a decade ago I owned an Aureal 8830 chipset (TB Santa Cruz). I've been out of the sound card market for a long time and I would like to purchase something that is at least as fancy as what A3D was putting out back then. I'm looking for some guidance on what I should purchase.
  
 Is there a card where we can have it all?
  Excellent 3d audio (spatial distance, occlusions, reflections)
  Hardware offload (?)
  Adequate shielding/no noise
  Thoughtful component selection
  Good build quality
  Functional, WHQL certified drivers
  
 My guess is not. But maybe you can point me in the right direction?
  
 My computer:
 Headphones: Sennheiser HD380pro (56ohm)
 Motherboard: Asus P8Z77-V LX.
 Motherboard Sound: Realtek 887, not licensed for Dolby Headphone.
 OS: Windows 8.1
  
 In this thread, a recommendation made for the shortest path to simply having DH would be to buy an Asus Xonar DGX. This seems reasonable, however I am concerned about whether or not the DGX would also include fancy things like occlusions and reflections.
  
 I am sensitive to noise and have built a nearly silent PC. There is nothing I hate worse than hearing EMI whine and popping, and for this reason I find the higher end products attractive.
  
 I can get a refurbished Creative X-Fi Titanium HD for $90. I think that's a fair price if creative can publish a win8.1 driver this January.
  
*Does anyone have a positive Windows 8.1 story they would like to share? *Specifically for the X-Fi Titanium HD?
  
 Lets say my price ceiling is higher than that. Is my only other option a ZxR or can I have-it-all with another product from Asus or HTOmega?


----------



## PurpleAngel

earwaxdac said:


> Over a decade ago I owned an Aureal 8830 chipset (TB Santa Cruz). I've been out of the sound card market for a long time and I would like to purchase something that is at least as fancy as what A3D was putting out back then. I'm looking for some guidance on what I should purchase.
> My guess is not. But maybe you can point me in the right direction?
> My computer:
> Headphones: Sennheiser HD380pro (56-Ohm)
> ...


 
 Turtle Beach Systems Santa Cruz sound card, I liked that card, nice and stable drivers.
 I would say to just get the Asus Xonar DG/X sound card for now, $10 mail in rebate this month.
 Use it for several months, see what kind of driver update come out for the higher priced sound cards.
 It's just hard to say if Creative Labs will do more driver updates for the Titanium series, Creative Labs might not even know themselves, they might just be waiting to see if enough people will by enough Titanium cards to justify spend cash for driver updates.
 What about getting the Sound Blaster Z (SB1500) sound card, sometimes goes on sale for $65.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

I am afraid you are correct. The current state of this industry disappoints me. I am used to software releases from other companies and if people would rather use a 3rd party driver pack to get a functional product that really says something. It reminds me a lot of the omega driver for ATI and I am not really interested in that.
  
*Can someone review my facts here:*
 Creative X-Fi Titanium HD does hardware EAX
 Creative Z series does software EAX
 X-Fi MB is software EAX you can purchase (?)
 Asus/Cmedia products do software EAX (either X-Fi MB or completely reverse engineered emulation)
  
 Is there any real advantage of having the EAX performed in hardware? Or is perhaps creaf thinking that the CPU overhead is so low it is insignificant? I can see why software EAX might be an advantage, as it would allow creative to fix problems that might not be as easy to fix in hardware.


----------



## NamelessPFG

earwaxdac said:


> Over a decade ago I owned an Aureal 8830 chipset (TB Santa Cruz). I've been out of the sound card market for a long time and I would like to purchase something that is at least as fancy as what A3D was putting out back then.
> 
> *truncated*
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Turtle Beach Santa Cruz had some kind of Crystal Semiconductor chipset. It's the Montego cards (except the Montego DDL) that used Aureal chipsets.
  
 $90 sounds like a fair price for the Titanium HD to me. I'd consider picking up a second card at that price myself.
  
 As for Windows 8.1, I happen to have a license provided by DreamSpark Premium now, so I could test it out...but I'll have to set up one of my computer's extra hard drives to boot it without compromising my Windows 7 installation.
  


earwaxdac said:


> I am afraid you are correct. The current state of this industry disappoints me. I am used to software releases from other companies and if people would rather use a 3rd party driver pack to get a functional product that really says something. It reminds me a lot of the omega driver for ATI and I am not really interested in that.
> 
> *Can someone review my facts here:*
> Creative X-Fi Titanium HD does hardware EAX
> ...


 
  
 That's my understanding of the situation regarding hardware vs. software EAX, yes.
  
 As to whether software EAX sounds worse, it likely depends on the game's specific implementation. Some games play nicely, others don't. On top of this, we've got those VOGONS folk saying that certain games don't sound right with anything other than a Sound Blaster Live! under Windows 98 SE with a very specific VXD driver...yeah, even I won't go quite that far.
  
 Fortunately, some of the quirkiest games with Creative's software OpenAL renderer + ALchemy (Thief 1 and 2, System Shock 2) got fixed by those games getting native OpenAL support, and the software/hardware OpenAL EAX/EFX experience is far more consistent.


----------



## PurpleAngel

earwaxdac said:


> I am afraid you are correct. The current state of this industry disappoints me. I am used to software releases from other companies and if people would rather use a 3rd party driver pack to get a functional product that really says something. It reminds me a lot of the omega driver for ATI and I am not really interested in that.
> 
> *Can someone review my facts here:*
> Creative X-Fi Titanium HD does hardware EAX
> ...


 
 In general the Titanium HD does stuff in hardware that the Sound Blaster Z does in software.
 X-Fi MB software is Creative's software designed to work with a different audio processor beside Creative own audio processing chips.
 Is the Creative drivers working with non-creative audio processers as good as the Creative software running on Creative's own audio processors??? (wish I knew the answer).
 Asus/Cmedia's GX software is an attempt to do the same job as EAX 5.0, I've heard there is mixed results.
 Last I heard is that EAX has been superseded by EFX(?), so unless you like playing older games, I do not think EAX support is a big factor in choosing sound cards.
 (There are hardcore Titanium supporters, I'm sure they have their reasons)
 When Microsoft Vista came out, the OS came with it's own audio processing features which I assume made it easier to write gaming audio that was not so dependent on which audio processor you were using.
 When EAX first came out your computer's CPU had one core and CPUs ran at a much slower speed (as did memory), 
 Now that computers are coming with much faster CPUs that have 4 cores or 6 cores or 8 cores and each core is better then older cores. A lot of the audio processing can be switch over to the CPU, so audio processing is much less dependent on a given audio processor.
 I'm sure Creative latest SBX software depends a lot more on the CPU's processor, then older Creative software drivers


----------



## NamelessPFG

purpleangel said:


> When Microsoft Vista came out, the OS came with it's own audio processing features which I assume made it easier to write gaming audio that was not so dependent on which audio processor you were using.
> When EAX first came out your computer's CPU had one core and CPUs ran at a much slower speed (as did memory),
> Now that computers are coming with much faster CPUs that have 4 cores or 6 cores or 8 cores and each core is better then older cores. A lot of the audio processing can be switch over to the CPU, so audio processing is much less dependent on a given audio processor.
> I'm sure Creative latest SBX software depends a lot more on the CPU's processor, then older Creative software drivers


 
  
 Hah, that's a laugh! XAudio2 + X3DAudio, in my experience, provides software mixing and little more, and the Microsoft-provided DSP features in the sound stack don't pertain to gaming, either. It's more stuff like room equalization and loudness correction.
  
 Reverb/chorus/environmental effects in current games come more from FMOD Ex and Wwise than the post-Vista sound stack.
  
 In retrospect, Creative shouldn't have been pushing canned EAX effects so hard. What they really needed to push was full positional 3D audio not limited to a fixed configuration of speakers, and they blew it so hard that only now is it coming back to the mainstream, thanks to GenAudio AstoundSound.
  
 (Now I just hope that AstoundSound's CPU processing codepath allows for the same level of quality as the AMD TrueAudio DSP codepath, because I really don't want to have to make the tradeoff between TrueAudio and CUDA/PhysX/ShadowPlay/all those other NVIDIA-exclusive features.)


----------



## genclaymore

AMD said that you don't need a AMD card to get Trueaudio DSP, they said it will work with any sound card, just disable the sound card effects like Dolby headphone/CMSS3D headphone/SBX before you play a True audio DSP game.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

Ah interesting. I remember now that my 8830 was a Diamond Monster MX300 (the black one) and it stopped working reliably in Windows XP. I suspect I may have damaged this card plugging an electric guitar directly into the line-in.
  
 I replaced it with the TB Santa Cruz. I didn't want to buy a creaf product after a friend's SBLive card couldn't be reinstalled without the original driver cd. I played with this card for many years and never missed EAX. I probably gave the TBSC to goodwill when I built this latest system. I didn't know there was a world of people (VOGONS) who would one day cherish this old hardware. Oops.


----------



## Evshrug

genclaymore said:


> AMD said that you don't need a AMD card to get Trueaudio DSP, they said it will work with any sound card, just disable the sound card effects like Dolby headphone/CMSS3D headphone/SBX before you play a True audio DSP game.



So, do you think it'll just be an in-game setting, or will we consumers have to install separate software?


----------



## SaLX

7.1 analog gaming headsets with 8 (or 16 or 32) little itty bitty speakers in them - derided as they are here on Head-Fi; are _we wrong _in laughing at them? In the years to come, maybe that's what'll happen: thousands of tiny speaker components will be woven into some advanced lining that replaces our conventional drivers as we know it. Amazing soundstage coupled with perfect dynamics. Drool.
  
 There may come a day - perhaps soon - when headphones with multiple drivers actually eclipse our 2ch headphones. Maybe spotty gamers will laugh at us in the future with our stereo headphones?


----------



## genclaymore

evshrug said:


> So, do you think it'll just be an in-game setting, or will we consumers have to install separate software?


 
 The way AMD explained it, it be coded into the game and not software that you install, It might be a game setting in the games that will use it.


----------



## Fegefeuer

True Audio requiores DSPs, it's not just a software that runs off your CPU. It doesn' t run off Nvidia hardware yet either. Right now it's running off Tensilica cores that are both on the the PS4/Xbox One and AMD cards which means drivers. Hopefully global middleware support will not wait too long.
  
 What True Audio doesn't do is hindering the type of soundcard you use since it resides in the I/O of your RAM.


----------



## chicolom

From what I understand, the point of TrueAudio is to offload the audio processing to the GPU.  The benefit of this is that developers no longer have to worry about audio processing stealing precious CPU cycles - they can now leverage the GPU to do that work. 
 This should encourage developers to spend more time/effort on in-game sound, and it should also encourage the use of more audio middleware in games.  An example of audio middleware is that "AstoundSound" plugin.
  
  
  
 So I _think _it's either some kind of API, or some kind of dedicated audio processor on the GPU. Sort of what Mantle is to graphics, TrueAudio is to audio.  Both are simply tools, designed to more efficiently use GPU hardware.  The hard part is getting developers on board and actually using the tech.
  
 Since the PS4 has TrueAudio capability, that should hopefully encourage more widespread adoption.
  
  
 Here's an interesting article on it.  Maybe people who now more about PC audio can read it and extract a better explanation of what it is.
 http://www.anandtech.com/show/7370/amd-announces-trueaudio-technology-for-upcoming-gpus


----------



## SaLX

But why not offload the work _to the CPU_ as opposed to the GPU? These days CPU's have 4 or more cores, and in a lot of games they are underutilised.


----------



## chicolom

salx said:


> But why not offload the work _to the CPU_ as opposed to the GPU?


 
  
 Isn't that how it's done already (on the CPU)?


----------



## Evshrug

salx said:


> 7.1 analog gaming headsets with 8 (or 16 or 32) little itty bitty speakers in them - derided as they are here on Head-Fi; are _we wrong_ in laughing at them? In the years to come, maybe that's what'll happen: thousands of tiny speaker components will be woven into some advanced lining that replaces our conventional drivers as we know it. Amazing soundstage coupled with perfect dynamics. Drool.
> 
> There may come a day - perhaps soon - when headphones with multiple drivers actually eclipse our 2ch headphones. Maybe spotty gamers will laugh at us in the future with our stereo headphones?


 I don't really think so... There are some elemental physics boundaries to overcome. Full-range sound from small drivers placed further from our eardrums than IEMs. Dampening resonance in a relatively small space between drivers. Sound waves not overlapping and causing beats/natural notice cancellation (driver variance tolerances would have to be way tighter than current stereo headphones).

There may be even more challenges (like acceptable price) to prevent widespread adoption, but even then, multi-driver headphones would lag behind the freedom of virtual surround. An 8 driver/channel headphone can only produce 8 sound directions, compared to the near-unlimited channels and 3D directionality possible with Virtual Surround. I'm not saying that multi-driver headphones can't possibly be good, I'm just saying virtual surround DSPs are far more practical.



fegefeuer said:


> True Audio requiores DSPs, it's not just a software that runs off your CPU. It doesn' t run off Nvidia hardware yet either. Right now it's running off Tensilica cores that are both on the the PS4/Xbox One and AMD cards which means drivers. Hopefully global middleware support will not wait too long.
> 
> What True Audio doesn't do is hindering the type of soundcard you use since it resides in the I/O of your RAM.



Yes, the Tensilica Cores. What I heard is that while both consoles are using AMD CPU's, PS4 will use TrueAudio while the Xbox1 will use something called "sphere"



chicolom said:


> Isn't that how it's done already (on the CPU)?



Surround processing is currently done either on CPU or dedicated soundcards. The Tensilica processor on AMD graphics cards (and hopefully on the PS4 version) are separate and take the load away from CPU and GPU. Then, you just have to worry about DACs, Amps, and stuff.


----------



## SaLX

evshrug said:


> I don't really think so... There are some elemental physics boundaries to overcome. Full-range sound from small drivers placed further from our eardrums than IEMs. Dampening resonance in a relatively small space between drivers. Sound waves not overlapping and causing beats/natural notice cancellation (driver variance tolerances would have to be way tighter than current stereo headphones).


 
 Naw - we'll have neural probes and crap attached to our brain stems (with revolving radars attached to our skulls). In the 22nd Century, they will look back at us on Head-Fi and giggle and point. Our ears only do the hearing - our brains are our DACs really (whoa). Best to bypass the ears and interface wit da brain. So there.


----------



## Evshrug

More like AEC's than DAC's... Analogue to electrical. A direct connection to the brain would neatly bypass the effects of ear shape and all that, and also neatly sidestep the challenge of creating holographic displays (3D, not limited to physical size), but... Call me old fashioned, but I feel a direct brain hookup is even weirder than other "future techs" like cloning.


----------



## NamelessPFG

salx said:


> Naw - we'll have neural probes and crap attached to our brain stems (with revolving radars attached to our skulls). In the 22nd Century, they will look back at us on Head-Fi and giggle and point. Our ears only do the hearing - our brains are our DACs really (whoa). Best to bypass the ears and interface wit da brain. So there.



I don't know about you, but all those cyberpunk examples of brains getting fried make me NOT want such implants!


----------



## chicolom

I'm still waiting on various PC parts to come in, so I put my unopened HD 7870 GPU on eBay to see what would happen, and I flipped it for a $50 profit!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
 Normally I frown upon flipping things, but I feel no remorse flipping a card to a litecoin miner, which the buyer most likely is.  They're buying out all the AMD cards everywhere to put them in a basement to mine coins in GPU sweatshops.  Kind of sad, when there are gamers out there trying to get a gaming GPU to so they can use it to....game.
  
 Time to look for a new GPU.  I'm thinking maybe a GTX 770?


----------



## SaLX

Nice deal chico - and yes the 770 would be without question an excellent choice. I've got a GTX 670 and it still does the job big time, but the 770 (look at the GTX 680 for comparison) would be the card I'd go for if I was doing a build right now - basically it would be a decent step up in power over my 670. Maybe somebody could chip in about the new AMD R9 alternatives seeing as they're aggressively priced?


----------



## chicolom

salx said:


> Nice deal chico - and yes the 770 would be without question an excellent choice.
> 
> Maybe somebody could chip in about the new AMD R9 alternatives seeing as* they're aggressively priced?*


 
  
 Not anymore, thanks to the litecoin mining explosion.  You'll notice the 280x are either all out of stock or are going for about ~$100 more than 770s now.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 AMD 7950s in particular are worth a bunch, as they seem to be the miner's favorite card. * If anyone here has a 7950, NOW IS THE TIME TO SELL*.  Seriously, they're going for $400+ on eBay right now.  Sell it and get a free upgrade to a newer more powerful card.
  
 Even vendors are selling these cards at _above_ MSRP!
 Newegg was selling 7950s for $150 during black friday, then they realized what was happening with all these litecoin miners and they upped their 7950 price to $_450 _the next week - and they still sold out!!


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

What is this mining?


----------



## chicolom

Basically, people buy a bunch of graphics cards and then just leave them turned on 24/7, running and calculating math problems, and they make money out of thin air from the process - or more accurately, they convert electricity into money. 
  
 This is something that's been going on years, but thanks to recent media coverage/publicity it's increased exponentially because a bunch of new people heard about it and think it sounds like easy money.  So they're buying out all the AMD video cards in bulk to try and setup these "mining rigs" to try and get free money.
  
  
 http://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/1siltn/a_guide_to_what_the_heck_is_going_on/
  
  
  


Spoiler: Explosion


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Oh... the things people do to beat the system and cheat their way into money. 

I'll remain poor, oblivious, and stick with Nvidia. The 7970m that I had on 3 of my first M17x's were all faulty. First GTX680m worked perfectly.


----------



## SaLX

Fascinating article chico - wow $12 dollars a day per graphics card (though the value is going up). Not tempted but wow.. wonders will never cease.. I like the quote "Will we ever get our beloved 7950s back.....?"


----------



## chicolom

FWIR, for anyone just now getting into it it's already probably too late. 
  
 The people who will make money are the ones who got in early on, before the coin price and difficulty skyrocketed.  The more GPUs that join, the more difficulty rises and the smaller the rewards.
  
  
 Another article on the AMD shortages:
 http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2013/12/9/cryptocurrencies-are-causing-shortages-of-amd-radeon-gpus.aspx
  


> Because of this fact, If you go online and try to buy an R9 280X or an R9 290 your options are severely limited.  We've spoken to some people involved with the retailers and some retailers themselves and we've been finding that most retailers simply have very little to no stock of cards. And this is not for having enough cards coming in, but rather that in some cases back orders are outstripping the incoming stock. If you head on over to Newegg, you can see that only 4 out of 17 models of the R9 280X are available for sale, the rest are completely sold out. In addition to that, only 2 of the 16 models of the R9 290X are available for sale as well. The story is the same with the R9 290 as well, with only two of the 7 models of the card available for sale.
> 
> We wanted to make sure that it wasn't that these cards were getting EOL'd or cut down in quantities, so we did a stock check with another retailer and verified our hypothesis. For the R9 290, they had 225 cards incoming with 121 back orders already being filled. The R9 290X was a much more drastic story with 290 cards shipping and 259 backorders being filled, effectively only leaving 30 cards in inventory, which will likely be snapped up immediately after they are shown as in stock. Even the R9 280X, which is effectively an HD 7970 refreshed into a new card has an insane amount of backorders with a quantity of 642 cards being shipped and 525 backorders being filled immediately.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 So for gamers, I think the logical option right now (and for the near future) is to go with an Nvidia card for gaming.  If you want an AMD card, you'll have to fight it out with these miners over stock and/or pay for the card at/or above MSRP.
  
 And just a reminder that anyone here with an AMD GPU might want to consider selling it for a profit online.


----------



## pox67

chicolom said:


> FWIR, for anyone just now getting into it it's already probably too late.
> 
> The people who will make money are the ones who got in early on, before the coin price and difficulty skyrocketed.  The more GPUs that join, the more difficulty rises and the smaller the rewards.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yep, I mined a bunch of Litecoins and some others earlier in the year. Built a couple of computers with dual 7970's in them and let them go for 3 months. I ran them during the winter so that the heat from the computers was useful in heating the house. Once I had a little stockpile of coins I kept two watercooled 7970s for gaming and sold the other computer for a profit. Completely covered costs and have about $25000 in current market value of Litecoins + others. It was a fun experiment that paid off, I like all forms of computing so it was just an interesting project for me.


----------



## chicolom

pox67 said:


> Completely covered costs and have about $25000 in current market value of Litecoins + others.


 
  
 So are you going to "cash in" your coins for some usable currency (like USD)?  Or are you going to wait and see if the price of coins rises or falls. 
  
 Seems a little risky to bet on it.


----------



## pox67

chicolom said:


> So are you going to "cash in" your coins for some usable currency (like USD)?  Or are you going to wait and see if the price of coins rises or falls.
> 
> Seems a little risky to bet on it.


 
 Haha, that is always the question.
 After mining them up I sold enough to cover costs of electricity and the computers I bought. So now what I have is basically profit. When Litecoin hit $10 I cashed in 70 and bought a new mobile phone (Asus Fonepad Infinity - amazing phone + tablet combo). I don't regret doing that but Litecoins immediately went to $40. Now I am content to sit and watch what happens. I don't think the full potential of these coins as a payment system has been realised yet so I figure the price will rise for a while.


----------



## SaLX

Making money _from literally nothing_. Any one thing or commodity on this planet is worth exactly what you're prepared to pay for it; and in turn, exactly what some other person is prepared to pay for it. In this case, it's meaningless codes stashed in somebody's software 'box'. Good on you px67. Kind of shows up what real life stock markets are about, however they are based on material things.. but not any more by the looks of it.
  
 Please spend your $25,000 on hookers, porn and drugs solely for an exciting finale. They'll never make a film about some (wealthy) nerd in a basement with a stack of dual AMD 7970's, not even with Val Kilmer.


----------



## Evshrug

I remember hearing about BitCoin mining a lot longer ago than "months and months," in fact long enough ago I don't remember who and in what location I was talking to them about it. At the time, I thought it must be an extension out from when you could "lease" your computer's processing cycles, when you would otherwise leave your computer idle, out to universities and institutions to help solve complex math equations, and they would pay you for "borrowing" the use of your machine. And then when AMD's 7xxx series cards came out last year, "Tom's Hardware" was including compute performance for litecoin mining use... so it's been around for a while. 

However, what I gleaned from it overall was that you have to buy a lot of high-end cards and build several machines with them to generate enough coins to really make it time-efficient... Basically, it becomes like owning and supporting any other small business, and personally I'd just rather spend my time and make my money in other ways. To each their own though, and it takes all kinds to make the world go around.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I thought AMD cards became obsolete for cryptocurrency mining the instant those ASIC things like the Jalapeno showed up, being far more powerful and energy-efficient for that purpose, but otherwise useless paperweights, especially once the difficulty kicks up to where you need a billion of the things to get anywhere.
  
 Oh well, while I'm kicking myself for not having bought a new HD 7970 while they were still dirt cheap prior to the R9 290X debut so I could flip it for a profit, I tend to lean toward NVIDIA cards for gaming anyway, just because of the additional features.


----------



## chicolom

FWIR, the SteamOS beta appears to be out.
  
  
  
 Also, it seems some of Valve's prototype Steam Machines boxes are out in the wild. 
  
 It looks like it's quite literally a PC assembled from off-the-shelf components:
  
  



  
  
  


> _ "The prototype machine is a high-end, high-performance box, *built out of off-the-shelf PC parts*,_" Valve said to the Steam Universe community group. _"It is also fully upgradable, allowing any user to swap out the GPU, hard drive, CPU, even the motherboard if you really want to. Apart from the custom enclosure, *anyone can go and build exactly the same machine by shopping for components and assembling it themselves*. And we expect that at least a few people will do just that."_


 
  
  
 So it's basically a pre-built gaming PC in a custom enclosure.
  
 The prototype units do have some pretty powerful specs though:
  


> GPU: some units with NVidia Titan, some GTX780, some GTX760, and some GTX660
> CPU: some boxes with Intel : i7-4770, some i5-4570, and some i3
> RAM: 16GB DDR3-1600 (CPU), 3GB DDR5 (GPU)
> Storage: 1TB/8GB Hybrid SSHD
> Power Supply: Internal 450w 80Plus Gold


 
  
  
 It should be noted that the above prototype build by Valve is just that - a prototype.  It also probably represents a more upper tier of Steam Machine.  Valve says that most of the buyable Steam Machines are going to be made by the third parties partnering with Valve.
  


> Only 300 of the metal beast above will ship to beta testers, and then Valve says it's cutting off its own supply of Steam Machines._ "We're really building this as a test platform, and there are many machines that are gonna be made by third-parties. They're the ones that will be available commercially in 2014,"_ Valve designer Greg Coomer told Engadget.


 
  
  
 There should be some more Steam Machines SKUs revealed at CES 2014 (January 7-10):
  


> ...Those machines will be revealed at next January's CES, as well as partners and more information (fingers crossed for pricing!). Coomer expects a "good array of options, optimized for different features" in the Steam Machines lineup -- everything from a low-end, inexpensive streaming box to an Intel i7/GeForce Titan GPU-powered supercomputer.
> 
> _”Really we just wanna have confidence that all the customers on Steam are having enough options, and that the price/performance spectrum is as fleshed out as Steam customers want it to be."_


 
  
  
 I'm curious as to what the pricing will be for these.  One of the iBuyPower Steam Machine SKUs with more conservative specs (AMD CPU, an R9 270x GPU, and a 500gb HDD) is estimated to go for ~$500.  That configuration is still more powerful than the Xbox One and PS4 in terms of raw specs (although not accounting for advantages consoles have with being able to optimize for a closed platform or use lower level APIs).
  
 Not sure on what the price for a more upper-tier machine would be though, as just the GTX 780 card from that above prototype rig goes for ~$500 by itself.
  
 I know that building your own PC is cheaper than buying a prebuilt PC, so I think it's safe to assume the same will hold true in regards to buying a Steam Machine vs building your own "Steam Machine".
  
  
  
 It's interesting stuff though, as it's almost like we're seeing the Pre-Built Gaming PC business rallying behind the banner of Valve in order to do battle with the consoles over the living room gaming space.
  





  
  
 More reading:
 http://steamcommunity.com/groups/steamuniverse#announcements/detail/2145128928746175450
 http://steamcommunity.com/groups/steamuniverse#announcements


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I'm much to lazy and clumsy to build a custom pc, so I'd be interested in a steam machine. Something easily upgradeable for diy-adversed people like me.


----------



## chicolom

evshrug said:


> I remember hearing about BitCoin mining a lot longer ago than "months and months," in fact long enough ago I don't remember who and in what location I was talking to them about it.


 
  
 You're absolutely right Evs.  I should have said "years".  Fixed it.


----------



## pox67

That Steam Box looks pretty cool chicolom.
 I already have a computer connected to the TV that runs Windows 8. The PC is pretty old but runs all games at the 1366x720 of the TV, it has Steam on it and is used for gaming with a wireless XBox controller. I might dual boot it with the Steam OS to check it out.


----------



## chicolom

pox67 said:


> I might dual boot it with the Steam OS to check it out.


 
  
 That's my tentative plan as well.
  
 Dual boot, with a Windows installation for regular computing, and a separate Steam OS installation dedicated to gaming.  If nothing else it should hopefully remove some windows layers with unnecessary services running and what not.


----------



## NamelessPFG

mad lust envy said:


> I'm much to lazy and clumsy to build a custom pc, so I'd be interested in a steam machine. Something easily upgradeable for diy-adversed people like me.


 
  
 You could always just ask me if you need someone to build a PC for you. Cover the cost of parts and shipping, and you've got yourself a new machine.


----------



## Totoori

What should I be pairing with q701's  that will be used on my PC and absolutely nothing else? I have nothing but onboard sound currently.


----------



## Totoori

Quote:


mad lust envy said:


> I'm much to lazy and clumsy to build a custom pc, so I'd be interested in a steam machine. Something easily upgradeable for diy-adversed people like me.


 
  
 I may be incorrect on this because not all the information is out yet on them, but you could essentially order all the parts from a vendor and have them put it together for you, itès usually $50 and would save you a lot of money.


----------



## chicolom

Build your own Steam Machine:
 http://store.steampowered.com/steamos/buildyourown


----------



## Murder Mike

mad lust envy said:


> Oh... the things people do to beat the system and cheat their way into money.
> 
> I'll remain poor, oblivious, and stick with Nvidia. The 7970m that I had on 3 of my first M17x's were all faulty. First GTX680m worked perfectly.


 
  
 That probably had more to do with Alienware not having it set up properly than it being an AMD GPU. 
  


namelesspfg said:


> I thought AMD cards became obsolete for cryptocurrency mining the instant those ASIC things like the Jalapeno showed up, being far more powerful and energy-efficient for that purpose, but otherwise useless paperweights, especially once the difficulty kicks up to where you need a billion of the things to get anywhere.


 
  
 IIRC, the ASICs won't work for altcoins, litecoins, etc. For straight Bitcoins, you're right, ASICs are the only way to make any headway.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

curious what you guys think of this video,
  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1rXcJuEsy0&feature=c4-overview&list=UUNovoA9w0KnxyDP5bGrOYzg
  
 I found a lot of stupid and incorrect comments and snobbery from guys who are criticizing audiophile community as snobs.  Generally these guys put out great PC gaming videos and tutorials so i was a bit dumbfounded by this video.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Baaah, we dont like virtual surround, baaaw, stick to stereo, baaah, you fail if you don't listen to us, baaah.

Horrible people, with horrible advice.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Normally I enjoy their videos, really good PC gaming and hardware advice and they are down to earth. But I have this feeling that the mayflower rep poisoned Logans ears a bit too much.

They go ahead and put together the O2 which is already easy to diy all of a sudden they are experts and all PC audio cards are trash... Really mature.


----------



## SaLX

So.. basically don't buy a soundcard... buy this ODAC that the guy on the left sells for $189.. kerchiiiiiing!!!


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Yes and offers no software features that people actually want for gaming or just to personalize their audio...


----------



## SaLX

They were beautifully eloquent in their description of impedance and Ohms (lol) - Realising that they weren't being at all helpful, they winged it and promised to do another vid to explain it all (once they actually read up on it). 
  
 Another thing .. impedance mismatch doesn't cause bass to go 'missing'.  What?


----------



## EarwaxDAC

No comment on anything about EMI, ohms, their apparently driver-less DAC, or the veiled sales pitch.
  
 I think the only valid argument in this video was as follows:
  
 Trust game developers to provide the best possible experience via 'headphones mode' and deliver signals to your sound media with the least amount of molestation possible. 
  
 This is the same mentality of folks who kill every single mob in dungeons, every time, because 'it was the way the developers meant it to be played'. I've always preferred the option of choice myself and stayed away from anything with rails or a strict linear progression. But, I acknowledge these folks exist and that's their thing.
  
 I tend not to group with them, however.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Trusting game developers to implement a good headphone mix would force me to play with the audio equivalent of having blinders on...unless that game is Battlefield: Bad Company 2, then it's more like being outright blindfolded because of the practically nonexistent positioning.
  
 It's pretty clear to me that most of them see audio as that one feature on the checklist to just get out of the way, and if they do give it any attention, it's usually toward the sound samples and overall mixing for surround speaker systems, with headphones being an afterthought.
  
 Of course, I shouldn't blame them too hard; software development is difficult, and the reason A3D, DirectSound3D and OpenAL existed was to make their lives easier in implementing 3D audio. I'm not sure what they saw in FMOD Ex and Wwise, but it must've been much easier for them somehow; I just wish those respective middlewares had some decent headphone mixing out of the box without also having to slip in that AstoundSound plugin from GenAudio.
  
 The good news about AstoundSound is that it IS a plugin for both FMOD and Wwise, meaning it already has most of the gaming industry covered, so we just have to make our voices heard and tell developers to invest in it.
  
 For that matter, all this talk of impedance mismatches bothers me, because a lot of it is certainly FUD; I just don't know WHICH statements are myths and lies. One thing I do recall on reading the blog that started this trend was that impedance mismatches mainly tend to mean uncontrolled (not necessarily missing, sometimes it'll be too boomy) bass, particularly on Sennheiser sets with whacked-out impedance curves. Other sets with flat impedance curves aren't really bothered by it.
  
 Then there's the all-too-common issue of people thinking headphone impedance = sensitivity, when we all know that's not the case. Just because the 32-ohm Beyerdynamics and the AKG 70x line have low impedances doesn't mean people around here recommend you go trying to use them without some decent amplification.
  
 If anything, I do admit that one thing I like about the niche, expensive and exclusive electrostatic amp market is that I don't have to worry about all this impedance talk in that field...though that just brings up new things like voltage swing, slew rate and other stuff that flies over my head since I'm not an electrical engineer and not all that concerned about exactly what it is that makes the Blue Hawaii SE better than all the other 'stat amps if a "lowly" SRM-T1 can still put out some good sound.


----------



## chicolom

That Teksyndicate video was a bit dissapointing. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 First off though, there _were _a some good things mentioned, such as:

Avoid using the audio headers on the front of the case.
Using an external DAC/amp is preferable to an internal one (for noise reasons).
Try to find yourself a good pair of headphones instead of opting for an inexpensive gaming headset.
Use the optical out from the motherboard if you have it.
  
  
 Unfortunately, most of the rest of the video was a bit misleading.
  
Soundcards
  
 In order to automatically disqualify most soundcards they focus on WAY over exaggerating the effects of output impedance.  He actually said that with a 10 ohm ouput impedance_ "1/3 of the signal is going to be GONE" _and _"1/3 of the music is being dropped"_.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  He cites output impedance like it's the _determing factor_ in how good an amp is.  I'd like to see them compare the E09K and O2 in a blind test.  It should be incredibly easy to spot the E09K as it's dropping 1/3 of the music, right?
  
*You guys said your going to be "busting as many audiophile myths as possible", but are you sure these statements on output impedance effects aren't just reinforcing or even creating new myths?*
  
  
  
 Next he says, YES soundcards have amps but why would you even need a dedicated amp when most headphones are only 32 ohms?  Even the Hifiman HE500s are only 38 ohms! So these days you don't really need an amp, and your onboard audio will be just fine - even for the Hifimans. _* "*These days most heapdhones are under 80ohms.  That means they're efficient and they don't need extra power.  Unless your nuts you don't need more power than that."  _
  
*Hmm..are you sure your not neglecting to mention some things, like why low impedance ≠ easy to drive with headphones like Hifimans (and other Planars), Beyerdynamics, AKGs, etc? *  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
Oh BTW, you should buy an O2 though!  (please disregard everything just mentioned about NOT needing an amp). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
DSPs
  
 Throughout the video they basically skip over the WHOLE POINT of _why_ you would use a gaming soundcard, which is for their DSP processing (such as CMSS, Dolby Headphone, SBX pro, etc).  They say that your motherboard audio can do everything a gaming soundcard can do, and that using optical from a soundcard like a Xonar_ "is the same exact digital signal you'll get from your motherboard's optical out"_. * Yeah - except one has has a surround DSP and the other doesn't. *
  
 Then he says _"I guess the only benefit from using the soundcard is they can use the software that came with it.  But that's all in Windows anyways, so..." _* O RLY?  Windows already comes with Dolby Headphone, CMSS, and SBX Pro built in?  Good to know.*
  
  
 They say it doesn't make any sense to use surround DSPs anyways if you have a good pair of headphones.  Just use regular stereo and your brain will put everything into place!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  *Sorry, I don't believe you*. * A quick 5 second test* *shows that a good surround DSP > basic stereo for 3D positioning.  The vast majority of people who've tried both would agree.*
  
 Don't believe use?  Just watch this binaural recording video.  If you go to your game options and set the sound to "headphones" it will_ "take the signal and make it so it's binaural"_.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  *I wish that were true.  I wish selecting "headphones" = binaural audio in games.  Maybe in the future that will be possible, but for now that's NOT the case.  BTW, If anything that virtual barbershop video is an endorsement for USING surround DSPS and NOT using basic stereo.*
  
  
  
 I know they meant well with the video, but I think they created just as many myths as they busted.
  
 The obvious irony of the whole video is that they start off saying that they're tired of the "audiophile snobbery" and that they're going to be getting rid of some of the snobbery in the audiophile world - but then they basically spout audiophile snobbery for the rest of the video.
  
 He says that he only wants to get the most pure experience for gaming as the developers intended it, so _NO_ surround sound DSPS, _NO_ EQing, _NO_ gaming headsets, and _NO_ amps with ~10 ohm ouput impedance.  They all color the sound, so all of them be damned.  *Ironically, those are exactly the sort of things an audiphile snob would say, and his "only pure and uncolored sound" viewpoint is about as snobbish as you can get.*  
  
 He only want's the most pure experience, which is why he's getting an _ODAC...for gaming_.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 Enjoy your "pure" gaming experience in basic stereo, and I'll enjoy my "colored" gaming experience in surround sound.  I might even EQ in some bass!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  
 Logan seems to be a little too gullible and easily influenced by what he's told regarding audio.*  While I'm glad that he's no longer brainwashed by the gaming companies, he's now simply brainwashed in the other direction by an audiophile company. *
  
_"I will never use another soundcard.  I just want to be happy with my audio setup."  _*He's left "ignorant gamer land" and has entered ignorant audiophile land instead.*  *If ignorance is bliss though, he'll be happy either way*.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

chicolom said:


> That Teksyndicate video was a bit dissapointing.
> 
> 
> First off though, there _were_ a some good things mentioned, such as:
> ...




If that post got any longer, I thought I'd have to call in sick to work to read it. Lol jk.

But you are correct in your points, that's how I feel as well.

However I would not call mayflower an audiophile company. They took JDS labs design and built it. Takes 30-60 minutes to do and you don't need any knowledge of audio at all. Its a diy amp. However it is a good one I agree.

Also in terms of internal noise, ya that's debatable if you can even hear it compared to moving it 2 feet away outside your case. Even if your have the amp encased in an aluminum housing. 

But that's a discussion for another day.


----------



## SaLX

Great post chico.. couldn't agree more. The Tek Syndicate guys are getting 'a little' flustered looking at their replies on the thread. Yeah lol.. _"let's bust some myths and replace them with a few myths of our own"._


----------



## DJINFERNO806

We are all audiofools. Duh.


----------



## NamelessPFG

That point about creating new myths in the process of busting old ones...I couldn't have said it better myself. It happens a lot in the world of audio, and I at least want to be sure that I don't accidentally do the same. That's why I stay out of all the amp and impedance-related discussions.
  
 Meanwhile, I'm testing out this Beyerdynamic MMX300 a bit, now that I've fixed up the headphone connector. This is looking like a promising one for anyone who wants a headset that doesn't fail at sound quality...


----------



## SaLX

Saw this review and it really got my goat up (What did that term come from?): http://www.t3.com/reviews/sennheiser-pc-360-g4me-review. Go straight to the Sound Quality section.. he bemoans the fact that they are stereo and not 3D..... groan. This type of low rent journalism adds to the myths we've been discussing. Basically though.. if you've half a brain, registered on Head-Fi or OCN, done a bit of research and asked the right questions, _you'll be good_. Read the above review and.. well....
  
 Nameless.. yeah the MMX300's were my no.1 choice before I came here to do a bit of research (and ask stoopid questions etc lol). A complete dearth of any reviews or feedback put me off, however Fegefeur did a nice mini write up over on MLE's thread and they sound good indeed. Saw what you wrote about the frontal cues.. yeah hopefully you'll adjust. Really pleased to know that rear cues work well.


----------



## Evshrug

djinferno806 said:


> We are all audiofools. Duh.




Speaking about being an audiofool... I just ordered an SB Omni...


----------



## SaLX

Omni looks good.. not pretty looking but hopefully will do the trick.
  
 FYI all.. Good all in one list of all soundcard reviews (not just the ones on Techpowerup) http://www.techpowerup.com/reviewdb/Sound-Cards/


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Some especially cringe worthy stuff on the last page of comments at Tek Syndicate's site.

https://teksyndicate.com/videos/gaming-audio-myths-avoid-bs-save-your-audio-life?page=8
*
"My thought has been spoken by this gentleman. I think what Logan trying to point out is that if you want to get truly better sound quality, you should get an external DAC. You will only get minuscule improvement if you get a sound card. I also use Xonar DX. However, I cannot hear the difference of sound quality between the Xonar DX and the on-board audio (Maximus IV). Dolby Headphone feature is the only reason I use Xonar DX. (Dolby Headphone make your headphone sounds like 7.1 surround speakers)"*

*"could someone explain how you would get surround sound using only one of those dacs in the video??"
"Yon won't need it with a proper pair of headphones, but razor surround is free."*

*"Any bitrates or sampling higher than CD quality is not needed for listening. The difference between cheap DACs and more expensive ones is features, build quality, and hype. For professional applications you might need some sort of reference measurement, and higher end DACs are usually rigorously measured and tested."*


----------



## genclaymore

We all know Teksyndicate is full of it with there lies and double standards, as well as their fan based who will believe any thing they say.  While pushing his external dac amp at the same time. Trying to get people to buy the Odac, o2 or both.  there really isn't any thing any one can do, site like that one will exist and it users will spread out every where bring the non-sense with them.


----------



## NamelessPFG

I remember when I used to hang around on this one computer enthusiast forum and try and explain that hardware acceleration wasn't dead in Vista - DirectSound3D was.

One of the guys there said I was talking rubbish about that and mechanical keyboards while hyping up Logitech gaming products and such. He was a moderator, too, albeit not the owner.

Arguing with him would lead nowhere fast, so I deemed that forum a lost cause and left.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

namelesspfg said:


> I remember when I used to hang around on this one computer enthusiast forum and try and explain that hardware acceleration wasn't dead in Vista - DirectSound3D was.
> 
> One of the guys there said I was talking rubbish about that and mechanical keyboards while hyping up Logitech gaming products and such. He was a moderator, too, albeit not the owner.
> 
> Arguing with him would lead nowhere fast, so I deemed that forum a lost cause and left.




Hah sounds like the Google + PC gaming community I joined. Daily arguments with people who are in the "industry"....

Yet seem to know actually very little about PC gaming Audio. I just had an argument with this one dude who thought all modern games use EAX... After some schooling, he did not answer back.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

Does anyone know if the X-Fi Titanium HD has a mic boost / preamp? I finally received mine and everything with CMSS-3d works great, but there isn't any mic boost in the driver settings. My onboard Realtek has this feature and it helps with my mic.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

Research completed. There is no mic gain on the Titanium HD.
  
 What are folks out there using for a mic then? I am using a mic that is very similar to a ATR-3350, it's a generic knockoff I purchased almost a decade ago. No spec on sensitivity.


----------



## Evshrug

Hmm, nameless will have better familiarity to answer that one... all the newer Creative devices I've tried (yep, even the Recon3D USB) offered mic gain settings, so in surprised to hear this result of research. If there isn't a gain setting on the X-Fi software suite, is there maybe an option for mic-gain boosting within Windows itself?


----------



## NamelessPFG

What the hell, I could've sworn I got a reply through from my smartphone a few hours ago...
  


earwaxdac said:


> Does anyone know if the X-Fi Titanium HD has a mic boost / preamp? I finally received mine and everything with CMSS-3d works great, but there isn't any mic boost in the driver settings. My onboard Realtek has this feature and it helps with my mic.


 
  
 You're right, Creative removed the mic boost feature from the Titanium HD for some stupid reason. Might have helped my desk mic a bit, but fortunately, cranking the mic volume up to 100 is still plenty for my MMX 300's mic (which my friends already think is noticeably better than the desk mic over Skype, I might add).
  
 I should note that the other X-Fi cards, like the non-HD Titaniums and Auzentech's models, still have the mic boost option...along with optional speaker-out mute when the headphone-out's connected, rather than forced in hardware. I'm frankly not sure what Creative was smoking when they decided to take those choices away from the user with the Titanium HD; fortunately for me, they don't hinder my usage any.
  
 By the way, the Titanium HD does have a mic pre-amp, otherwise it wouldn't have ANY mic inputs at all. That's part of the reason sound cards aren't just plain DACs: they have pre-amps and ADCs for audio input as well as output.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Not sure if any of you still care, however the badmouthing of Head Fi has begun over in the Tek Syndicate forums over some of our responses on their audio myths video.
  
*Chicolom*, they specifically quote your post you made here.
  
https://teksyndicate.com/forum/sound-cards-dacs-other-hardware/head-fi-respond-gaming-audio-myths/165123
  
 Apparently some guy who says hes a guitarist thinks nobody on this site knows anything about basic audio circuits.
  
 Lol not sure if I should start a separate thread for this.


----------



## SaLX

Yeah - I see some guy has been communing with "He Who Shall Not Be Named" and is doing a séance to pass on his pearls. Even in the afterlife, this guy knows his ****.


----------



## PurpleAngel

djinferno806 said:


> Not sure if any of you still care, however the badmouthing of Head Fi has begun over in the Tek Syndicate forums over some of our responses on their audio myths video.
> 
> *Chicolom*, they specifically quote your post you made here.
> 
> ...


 
 Of course the guitarist knows what he is talking about, don't most guitarist have a day job as Rocket scientists?


----------



## Klawsome

I'm getting the *AudioTecnica ATH-A900X Headphones* with the *Creative Sound Blaster Z soundcard*. I was recommended this soundcard since I honestly don't know much about them. I'v posted enormous essay sized threads about my very specific needs for a gaming headset and finally decided on the A900X's and to just get a seperate mic. Now they are just basic stereo as far as I know but I need very precise surround sound for gaming. I'm specifically looking for 7.1 surround sound for gaming but i'v heard the Creative Sound Blaster Z soundcard only outputs in 5.1. Now are there really any good soundcards out there that can put out real sounding 7.1 surround sound for my A900X's? Is it possible or should I just get a Sound Blaster Z? My price range is $100 and below for a soundcard. I could go higher if needed though.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Tech syndicate. Lol. Nice name.


----------



## EarwaxDAC

Nice headphones. What games are you playing?

I returned the Titanium HD. The price is too high to justify the mic input limitation. I am thinking of a Z series simply because even though it processes in software it will still render in legacy mode in csgo, which is what I am after.


----------



## NamelessPFG

djinferno806 said:


> Not sure if any of you still care, however the badmouthing of Head Fi has begun over in the Tek Syndicate forums over some of our responses on their audio myths video.
> 
> *Chicolom*, they specifically quote your post you made here.
> 
> ...


 
  





  
 In the best case, we'll all debate this in a civil fashion and all come out the wiser for it.
  
 But we're starting to head toward the worst case, where people start flinging insults and FUD at the other side, just making a mess of things. I can already see it happening in that post's comments...from the site owner/video guy himself, no less.
  
 Of particular note is this bit:
  


> It's sad to see so many of you ready to agree with someone from head-fi. I really try to stay away from head-fi. There are some great users on there... but there are a zillion shills and a zillion morons as well. So, I avoid it as much as possible.


 
  
 Another commenter directly responded:
  


> lol no offense, but its so funny how you trying to labeling some as morons and shills.. if thats the case we have to abandon youtube and many other sites as well... may be we have to live in a cave to get away from those so called shills and morons...


 
  
 This is why people shouldn't really brand entire communities, especially as the head of communities themselves. Each one comes with its good and bad folks, and no community is perfect.
  
 I think one of the problems is that people have this absolutist attitude regarding their preferences, particularly regarding the virtual surround-vs.-stereo debate. Instead of going "I disagree, and here's why", there's a general vibe of "You're flat-out WRONG and you should be doing exactly as I do" flying about. By the way, that's not something that applies strictly to this debate, but any debate in general.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

My best friend is almost fully adversed to virtual surround gaming, and owns a pair of Turtle Beach Z11s... cheap, stereo, and easy to connect. He has heard and has appreciated many of the headphones I've owned or demoed. 

You think I'd ever force something he doesn't want? He's happy, and I'm just glad he understands that headphones give better competitive awareness than speakers.

That being said, he totally hears how well virtual surround works, etc. He just doesn't want it for himself.

Now when someone argues that it's useless and inferior... that's when I have a problem with it. They have clearly not demoed it at length, and come into it with an already closed mind. That's when I tell them to shove off.


----------



## SaLX

> https://teksyndicate.com/forum/sound-cards-dacs-other-hardware/head-fi-respond-gaming-audio-myths/165123


 
 Fight!!!!


----------



## chicolom

namelesspfg said:


> In the best case, we'll all debate this in a civil fashion and all come out the wiser for it.
> 
> But we're starting to head toward the worst case, where people start flinging insults and FUD at the other side, just making a mess of things.


 
  
  
 Agreed.
  
 If I can figure out how to do multi-quoting on that site, I'll pop over there and try and steer the debate/discussion back on track.


----------



## genclaymore

Logan lost as soon he made the video and his comebacks still isn't helping him, He still doesn't know what hes talking about and hes too stubborn to even listen to those who do know,he think because hes a musician that he knows every thing about audio, Even Musicians can be wrong.  Their will always be people like logan in the world, who think they know what they are talking about, but really don't.  
 My onboard VIA has no options for virtual headphone, not even the windows one.  Which why I use a DGX with my NFB15.32 thru optical, when I gaming for Dolby Headphone or internet tv and switch back to USB inputs when I listening to music.  Sure I can hear around me without DH and CMSS3D as I have done for a while, but DH enhances the experience, as well using Dolby Virtual 7.1 with Dolby headphone as well while using the windows sound settings on 7.1 as well games when they have the option for speakers,While of course using Headphones sending it over optical.


----------



## BrightCandle

You know what happens in BF4 if you set the sound settings to headphones? It sets the sound settings for the game to 2.0 and you get no surround sound effect at all its just stereo. It doesn't have it inbuilt and Windows is certainly not introducing its own binaural effect. That was something said in the teksyndicate that is just plain wrong. Its only with manual edits to the sound config and setting it to 7.1 and using Dolby Headphone that I get a decent surround sound effect from that game.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Tyler is on YouTube trying to tell me that there are better pieces of hardware to the STX for cheaper, aka the E10.

No DSPs or enough power for higher ohm headphones but its better. 

They are really trying hard to hate on anyone who wants virtual surround.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

That's what it sounds like to me. They clearly have no real experience with it.

For gaming/movies encoded in Dolby: If i could only choose one, I'd take my cheap ass Xonar U3/Mixamp over a $2000 dac/amp combo that is just stereo.

They're out of their minds.

I'd like to know if they even bothered adjusting the settings properly, or just looking at technical data. To say stereo is even remotely as accurate in portraying a soundstage and convincing audio cues... well, they're just plain deaf.


----------



## Fegefeuer

He's right that our brain corrects our audio perception with what we see, applying a sound to the corresponding source out of our very own evolutional (and of course self-made) experience. However the fallacy here is though that correct (gaming) audio is independant of visual cues or hints. You should be able to locate sounds/sources blindly just approximating real life and it's impossible with simple stereo to differentiate height/depth in games without prebaking or room information. Game audio is dynamic, it changes fov, angles etc.....Yes, you can prebake like DICE but it's easy to notice how cheap that method is when  the sound that is played ignores the direction you look.
  
 That's where true binaural audio rendering comes into play to create that room information, sense of distance/space, height differentation, exact location. With better filters also material comes into play.
  
 Edit: There's so much stuff to improve with binaural audio. Approximating real life is not very easy but thankfully our ears are easier to fool than our eyes. Did you know that complex doppler algorithms can cost several hundred dollars alone?


----------



## Ari33

^ The McGurk effect? Yep, that's pretty wacky. Anyone who has never seen/heard it must check it out on utube.

I see the Tek vid is getting Pelters on other sites too, someone ought to send Logan this link too.. http://www.overclock.net/t/1452181/tek-syndicate-put-up-a-hilariously-misinformed-video-this-week-saying-all-soundcards-are-crap

The way I see it is that we all make mistakes and It must be difficult and humbling to admit that you have been giving questionable advice in front of such a huge online audience .... but to give him some credit he has admitted that he needs to re-address some of his comments in that vid.


----------



## Totoori

Picked up some HD650s. I'm looking for some recommendations on what to pair them with. I have nothing but onboard sound and they will not leave my PC desk. I game a lot, but mostly non-FPS style games that immersion is more important than complete positional accuracy, if that helps!


----------



## PurpleAngel

totoori said:


> Picked up some HD650s. I'm looking for some recommendations on what to pair them with. I have nothing but on-board sound and they will not leave my PC desk. I game a lot, but mostly non-FPS style games that immersion is more important than complete positional accuracy, if that helps!


 
 Budget would help?
  
 Asus Xonar Essence STX (used, $130 or new $167) or Creative Sound Blaster ZxR (new, $180).
 Or Asus Xonar DX or D1 (used ,$60) with a Bravo Ocean tube amp ($120), maybe Schiit Vali tube? ($120).
  
 Audio-GD NFB-15.32 external DAC/Amp, $255+shipping (mine cost $298, shipped to California)
 Easily drives my 600-ohm headphones, so the 300-Ohm HD650 should be no problem
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB1532/NFB15.32EN.htm
 Dual WM8741 DAC chips and a fairly nice headphone amplifier.
 Comes with USC and S/PDIF (optical & coaxial) inputs.


----------



## Totoori

Budget... I really have no idea. I'm hoping to spend $100-$200, but if more needs to be spent and the purchase is a good one I'm fine too. I still don't quite understand all of the external pieces outside of headphones. Is there an explain like I'm five version of things like amps/dacs/soundcards?
  
 I've had O2/Aune/Schiit recommended, but I am not entirely understanding which each do and why some do and don't require soundcards.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

The HD650 pairs up very well with the Fiio E9K. I liked it almost as much out of it as my $500+ Audio-GD SA-31.


----------



## Evshrug

Totoori,
An explanation like you are 5?
Uuuuuh...

Let's say you wanna make cookies (your mouth is a headphone). 

Game audio and music files are like the cookie ingredients.

You need a recipe to organize and know how to put all the ingredients together, that's like a surround DSP making sense of ingredients. The recipe also tells you to make the cookies the right size to make bite-sized for your mouth (instead of a big pie you'd share with others).

You need to do the work to turn the separate ingredients into cookie dough, so a DAC is like a bowl and an automatic mixer. DACs turn data about sound into the wavelengths your headphones can use, your mouth wouldn't understand separate ingredients as "cookie."

Then, you need to bake the dough, an amp is like an oven making the dough cook and ready to eat. An amp puts energy into raw analogue to make it audio fit for safely and appropriately putting into your mouth/headphone.

For fun, we could say that the cookie tray is like audio cables, lol. Moves around the cookies, has properties that may keep cookies from breaking while you're cooking and trying to serve them. It's pretty easy to make a good cookie tray, but some people prefer special trays.

Finally, you experience the cookies with your mouth... you don't want to eat cookies that are too raw or burnt, and you know cookies taste best when you get them in your mouth fresh and still a bit warm.

Getting a soundcard is kinda like throwing ingredients into a machine, and out pops a pan of consistently good fresh cookies. You can get good and very good machines, but the cookies may not be as gourmet if you got really good at each of the different parts of making a cookie... sometimes you just want a darn cookie already and they come out from the machine surprisingly good anyway.


.....
Does that make sense? Or am I spewing nonsense that only makes sense to tired me? I basically didn't sleep at all last night. I hope it was at least worth a LoL!
*YOUR MOUTH IS A HEADPHONE!!!!!*


----------



## chicolom




----------



## Mad Lust Envy




----------



## PurpleAngel

totoori said:


> Budget... I really have no idea. I'm hoping to spend $100-$200, but if more needs to be spent and the purchase is a good one I'm fine too. I still don't quite understand all of the external pieces outside of headphones. Is there an explain like I'm five version of things like amps/dacs/soundcards?
> 
> I've had O2/Aune/Schiit recommended, but I am not entirely understanding which each do and why some do and don't require sound cards.


 
 External DACs and sound cards and motherboards share the same feature, they come with a DAC chip (Digital to Analog Converter).
 Some external DACs and (newer) sound cards also come with a built in headphone amplifier
 The O2/Aune/Schiit all come with a built in headphone amplifier, but the Aune also has a DAC chip.
 You can mate (daisychain?) an internal sound card to an external headphone amplifier.
 Or a motherboard's built in audio to an external headphone amplifier.


----------



## SoFGR

earwaxdac said:


> Nice headphones. What games are you playing?
> 
> I returned the Titanium HD. The price is too high to justify the mic input limitation. I am thinking of a Z series simply because even though it processes in software it will still render in legacy mode in csgo, which is what I am after.


 
 is legacy mode that good ?


----------



## EarwaxDAC

It depends entirely on personal preference. Try it and decide for yourself. 

The cross-section of cs players and audiophiles is a finicky bunch. While it's far more important to use good tactics and have good shot placement, that can be easy to forget when trying to squeeze out a competitive edge with epeen hardware. What most players are going for is the ability to accurately place footsteps. How much effort required for this is entirely up to that individual.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Just a heads-up for everyone: you've got seven-and-a-half hours to snag Battlefield 2 for $5 off Steam before the Community's Choice poll rotates!


----------



## SaLX

So............everybody....... is Santa bringing anything sound related to put under your tree this Christmas (or 'Holidays' lol)?


----------



## Evshrug

I don't know, haven't opened anything yet!
...
Then again, if the combo of me and the postman counts as an elf and Santa, then I'll be getting a nice Sound Blaster Omni package. I can put it under the tree for a second, symbolically 

Also, I bought Turtle Beach DSS's for two of my gaming friends to introduce them to headphone surround, a pair of Koss headphones for my gaming clan's Co-Leader/Founder (he's also one of the peeps getting a DSS), and I helped a coworker last night pick out a pair of Sennheiser HD558 to gift his Dad.



Apple is giving everyone a free Xmas music playlist in iTunes, and their "12 days" app will give everyone gifts starting the 26th.


----------



## SaLX

Evs -- you are the best Santa a gamer could have...


----------



## Evshrug

^ Heh heh heh heh heeeh 
Love that pic, thanks!


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I do hope you plan on sending me that Omni for... testing... 


I keed, I keed.


Ok, not really. I WANT IT, and I WANT IT NAO. :veryevil:


----------



## DJINFERNO806

salx said:


> Evs -- you are the best Santa a gamer could have...




That game is an ad fest, it genuinely angers me lol.


----------



## SaLX

Rocket Santa -- easily edges out Borderlands 2 for THE best binaural gaming audio known to humanity. I stand by this.. _oh yeah._


----------



## DJINFERNO806

What are you talking about, you can get binaural with just stereo headphones and any game!!! Duh!! Better than virtual surround.


----------



## SaLX

Rocket Santa all the waaaayyyyy. One of the _key games of the 21st Century_.... no way you can contest that DJ.. I mean like.. not... a ....chance.


----------



## Evshrug

mad lust envy said:


> I do hope you plan on sending me that Omni for... testing...
> 
> 
> I keed, I keed.
> ...



I could probably spare it. Got like... 5 virtual surround processors of different types? Tho the DSS is going to my clan guy. And the SB Z is probably going to be returned.




salx said:


> Rocket Santa all the waaaayyyyy. One of the _key games of the 21st Century_.... no way you can contest that DJ.. I mean like.. not... a ....chance.



ET for Atari


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Didn't Atari bury all the ET cartridges out in the Nevada desert out of shame.


----------



## Evshrug

Secret future treasure. Also superman for the N64


----------



## NamelessPFG

Given that this Christmas is going to be really thin for us, I doubt it. I'd be lucky to get anything over $100 under the tree this year.
  
 Then again, I do consider this MMX 300 to be a sort of early gift to myself. Not that I need more headphones, but it's nice to have a headset that doesn't suck for once,  alongside finally getting to audition a Beyerdynamic set.


----------



## TranceDude

Hello, Game audio experts. I have a question about Battlefield 2's sound engine and the use of different sound settings. If I have the settings set up to Creative X-Fi and Ultra High, does this mean that the sound is being completely done by the sound card and there is 0 CPU strain caused by the sounds? What about when I set it to hardware and high or hardware and low? When is the CPU strain the biggest and when is is the lowest?
  
 Thank you!


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Merry Christmas filthy animals.


----------



## appsmarsterx

Tek syndicate must have the most zombified followers.


----------



## SaLX

Merry Christmas all!!


----------



## uncola

Hey guys I have a laptop.. and I want to know if I can have music play from the laptop speakers and my headphones via my usb dac/amp at the same time..  the same music..


----------



## DJINFERNO806

uncola said:


> Hey guys I have a laptop.. and I want to know if I can have music play from the laptop speakers and my headphones via my usb dac/amp at the same time..  the same music..




A quick Google search turned this up,
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2231297

Seems like the only way I can think of.


----------



## NamelessPFG

trancedude said:


> Hello, Game audio experts. I have a question about Battlefield 2's sound engine and the use of different sound settings. If I have the settings set up to Creative X-Fi and Ultra High, does this mean that the sound is being completely done by the sound card and there is 0 CPU strain caused by the sounds? What about when I set it to hardware and high or hardware and low? When is the CPU strain the biggest and when is is the lowest?
> 
> Thank you!


 
  
 On a proper X-Fi card with hardware OpenAL, I would believe that to be the case.
  
 Things get a little unusual, however, if you're using it with a software OpenAL renderer like with X-Fi MB or the Sound Core3D cards; older games THINK you're running them with hardware acceleration, but it's kinda like software emulation of that hardware acceleration, if that makes sense.
  
 Whatever the case, I don't think you'd have to worry much about CPU strain on any computer that can run BF2 these days. The real benefit is the added quality.


----------



## PurpleAngel

trancedude said:


> Hello, Game audio experts. I have a question about Battlefield 2's sound engine and the use of different sound settings. If I have the settings set up to Creative X-Fi and Ultra High, does this mean that the sound is being completely done by the sound card and there is 0 CPU strain caused by the sounds? What about when I set it to hardware and high or hardware and low? When is the CPU strain the biggest and when is is the lowest?


 
 Which X-Fi sound card do you have?
 I believe when the X-Fi cards came out computers had one CPU core.
 Now everyone has a CPU with at least 4 cores and running at least twice as fast.
 So I doubt your audio could really strain the CPU.


----------



## TranceDude

Thanks for the replies, I am rocking the Titanium HD (so yeah, proper X-Fi card). The thing is that some new BF2 mods like Project Reality push the BF2 engine to the max and a lot of people are having difficulties running it. That's why I was asking if it might have something to do with all the sounds putting a strain on the CPU. I see that isn't the case, at least not with my setup.


----------



## PurpleAngel

trancedude said:


> Thanks for the replies, I am rocking the Titanium HD (so yeah, proper X-Fi card). The thing is that some new BF2 mods like Project Reality push the BF2 engine to the max and a lot of people are having difficulties running it. That's why I was asking if it might have something to do with all the sounds putting a strain on the CPU. I see that isn't the case, at least not with my setup.


 
 The Titanium's audio processor offers more features then the new Soundcore3D audio processor used in the Recon3D and Z series cards.
  
 Hopefully you have the motherboard's on-board audio disabled? in the BIOS.
  
 An external headphone amplifier (Schiit Magni, $99) hooked up to the Titanium-HD's RCA output should provide the best audio quality, over plugging headphone's directly into the Titanium-HD's headphone jack.


----------



## TranceDude

purpleangel said:


> The Titanium's audio processor offers more features then the new Soundcore3D audio processor used in the Recon3D and Z series cards.
> 
> Hopefully you have the motherboard's on-board audio disabled? in the BIOS.
> 
> An external headphone amplifier (Schiit Magni, $99) hooked up to the Titanium-HD's RCA output should provide the best audio quality, over plugging headphone's directly into the Titanium-HD's headphone jack.


 
  
 What are the benefits of having the on-board sound card turned off in BIOS?
  
 I have a similar setup now - AKG Q701 into Schiit Lyr into Titanium HD through RCA. I only got the Lyr recently and the unit seems to be defective, so I'll probably have to return it and wait for a new one. I'll be stuck with my Headstage Arrow HE12 (which does pretty damn good with the Q701) for a while longer...


----------



## PurpleAngel

trancedude said:


> What are the benefits of having the on-board sound card turned off in BIOS?
> 
> I have a similar setup now - AKG Q701 into Schiit Lyr into Titanium HD through RCA. I only got the Lyr recently and the unit seems to be defective, so I'll probably have to return it and wait for a new one. I'll be stuck with my Headstage Arrow HE12 (which does pretty damn good with the Q701) for a while longer...


 
 Sometimes the on-board audio has a conflict with add-on internal sound cards.
 So disabling the on-board audio makes your Win OS's job a little easier.


----------



## genclaymore

appsmarsterx said:


> Tek syndicate must have the most zombified followers.


 
 I looked at the video for 10 secs then turned it off because of the bad audio and two idiots talking, then I read the comments, alot of them was the zombie followers, while the others was the poor souls that was trying to teach those zombies new tricks.


----------



## motorwayne

G'day,
  
 I'm a current ZX-R user and I'm very pleased with this card compared to the Xonar pheobus I have previously. I play FPS games like ARMA 2/3 and some BF3/4.
 As a change, I have a XF-I Titanium HD on the way at the moment, which for some reason I'm thinking with provide me an even better experiience for the games I play (correct me if I am wrong, I'll sell it)
  
 Question I have, is will adding an eternal AMP help sound quality when sending them to the AKG 240 MKII I own, and or the  AKG 702's I plan to get.
  
 Plus any other advice in terms of HP's or setup that might work well with ARMA 2/3
  
  
 Cheers
 motorwayne
 Kiwi


----------



## SaLX

Hi Motor,
  
 I really don't think you're going to get a better experience with your new Titanium HD over your ZxR, however I know that the open backed AKG's require a damned good amp to drive them to their fullest so your question is relevant. An external amp may well help with these headphones, then again you could just keep the ZxR and try using an amp on them..... whether this helps in just games (as opposed to music) using AKG's, I don't know. Do a search and see how people get on with AKG's with ZxR's. There are a few AKG readers in this thread, so hopefully they can help.
  
 I've played Arma 3 - it has a better soundscape than A2, but they've got a lot of work to do on it - just adding reverb is a bit of a con for the time being - though it's a lot better than Arma 2's in theory. BF4 have yet to buy.
  
 Personally, I went with the new SBZ range..... just better everything over the older X-Fi's, unless you're looking for legacy games support.


----------



## motorwayne

Maybe it was a Youtube demo of 4 sounds compared that convinced me to grab a xfi HD, seemed to me that it gave a far more vibrant sound and better directional distance accuracy compared to the zxr


----------



## PurpleAngel

motorwayne said:


> I'm a current ZX-R user and I'm very pleased with this card compared to the Xonar Phoebus I have previously. I play FPS games like ARMA 2/3 and some BF3/4.
> As a change, I have a XF-I Titanium HD on the way at the moment, which for some reason I'm thinking with provide me an even better experience for the games I play (correct me if I am wrong, I'll sell it)
> Question I have, is will adding an eternal AMP help sound quality when sending them to the AKG 240 MKII I own, and or the  AKG 702's I plan to get.
> Plus any other advice in terms of HP's or setup that might work well with ARMA 2/3


 
 The Ti-HD and ZxR use (almost) the same DAC chip and op-amps for audio for the headphones, so over all audio quality should be roughly the same (with an add-on amp for the Ti-HD).
 I would assume Creative Labs is putting more resources into the ZxR drivers, then the Ti-HD drivers.
  
 Might want to ask on these threads about Ti-HD vs. ZxR.
 http://forums.creative.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/623079/creative-sound-blaster-new-s-rie-z


----------



## DJINFERNO806

genclaymore said:


> I looked at the video for 10 secs then turned it off because of the bad audio and two idiots talking, then I read the comments, alot of them was the zombie followers, while the others was the poor souls that was trying to teach those zombies new tricks.




I can confirm I was a poor soul. Until I got fed up with the mayflower rep and his nonsense.


----------



## SaLX

That guy is probably sweating it out in some ****ty downtown bar, avoiding his own reflection in the "rest room" (lol), wondering where he went wrong in life.


----------



## chicolom

"Santa" remembered to bring me FiiO D03K, but he forgot to bring me a Xonar DGX   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 However I ordered a Sound Blaster Z OEM on Christmas Eve anyways...so, I think I'll just run with that for now.  If I want Dolby Headphone, I think I can just pipe a Dolby Digital from the SBZ out to my Ear Force DSS to get it.
  
  
 I also scored a deal on a GTX 770. 
 I still need to go back to Microcenter to pick up a CPU and motherboard though.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

So, what's your take on the Fiio D03k as a dac? Worth it's $30 or so?


----------



## chicolom

I can't really try it out yet as my computer isn't assembled. My only other optical source is my Xbox 360. : /

I'm sure it will be fine though.


----------



## valid8

Sooo... as a lot members might have predicted by now, the Tek Syndicate video might have just steered up some significant amount of confusion instead of clearing things up...specially if you look at the contradictories being posted back and forth within that thread/area/zone of the site.
  
 As a noob gaming audio fellow myself...I would like to ask, if it's not much of a fuss, the *almost* same question Logan asked the MayFlower dude holding up a dedicated soundcard:
  
 Do I need this (the soundcard)...in order to achieve a higher accuracy in pin pointing where sounds are coming from (within the game environment)? Or do I just pick up say a pair of Sony MA900s, plug them in my motherboard I/O audio port, select "Headphone" in in-game Audio Options, and I'm basically on par with the fancy expensive soundcard + dac/amp dude right next to me?


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> On a proper X-Fi card with hardware OpenAL, I would believe that to be the case.
> 
> Things get a little unusual, however, if you're using it with a software OpenAL renderer like with X-Fi MB or the Sound Core3D cards; older games THINK you're running them with hardware acceleration, but it's kinda like software emulation of that hardware acceleration, if that makes sense.
> 
> Whatever the case, I don't think you'd have to worry much about CPU strain on any computer that can run BF2 these days. The real benefit is the added quality.



The new cards use software OpenAL... running on the soundcard's onboard processor. So no, it doesn't add extra overhead.


----------



## SaLX

> Do I need this (the soundcard)...in order to achieve a higher accuracy in pin pointing where sounds are coming from (within the game environment)?


 
 Ideally you want to plug your headphones into something that has superior surround if you're wanting directional cues  > look for Dolby Headphone, CMSS-3D, SBX Pro or even Razer Surround. The last tech you could use with your mobo or even an external USB DAC .. see how you get on. Razer isn't **** _at all_, but it's by no means the best either.
  
 The MA900's - you can't go wrong with them.


----------



## NamelessPFG

evshrug said:


> The new cards use software OpenAL... running on the soundcard's onboard processor. So no, it doesn't add extra overhead.



I don't believe Creative's marketing for the Sound Core3D in that regard. Any "hardware acceleration" it offers seems to go toward THX TSP/SBX Pro features, which apparently shut themselves off whenever OpenAL's involved anyway.

Rather, I think it's still CPU-based like the Audigy SE, X-Fi XtremeAudio and all their USB products, but modern CPUs are so fast and the OpenAL renderer not so demanding to the point where you just don't notice the added overhead.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Here's a question that I've asked before but nobody seems to know.

With the x-fi cards, when using openal games, could you get a 3D surround mix without the use of cmss3d headphone? I havent used one in so long since my old xtreme gamer.

The fact that sbx turns off during openal tells us 1 of 2 things. Either sbx itself doesn't turn off, rather its doing the cmss3d equivalent(just the ability to control its strength, sound stage) of mixing the coordinate based sounds into 3d. Which means its being done on the audio processor.

OR openal does its own mixing in the API without needing a virtual surround alogrythm to assist.


----------



## chicolom

valid8 said:


> *Do I need this (the soundcard)...in order to achieve a higher accuracy in pin pointing where sounds are coming from (within the game environment)? *Or do I just pick up say a pair of Sony MA900s, plug them in my motherboard I/O audio port, select "Headphone" in in-game Audio Options, and I'm basically on par with the fancy expensive soundcard + dac/amp dude right next to me?


 
  
  
 One of the BIG points skipped over by Tek Syndicate's video was that people usually buy soundcards for their *virtual surround sound processing.  *A lot of gamers rely on virtual surround sound, and - unless your motherboard already has it, the game has it, or your using a download program - you WILL need a soundcard in order to get that 3D surround sound processing.
  
 Selecting "Headphone" in the in-game audio most likely won't get you the desired effect.  Usually "headphone" mode is a kind of downmix to 2 channels, but it usually lacks the crucial HRTF cues/processing that makes virtual surround sound effective


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

+1000000000000


----------



## valid8

chicolom said:


> One of the BIG points skipped over by Tek Syndicate's video was that people usually buy soundcards for their *virtual surround sound processing.  *A lot of gamers rely on virtual surround sound, and - unless your motherboard already has it, the game has it, or your using a download program - you WILL need a soundcard in order to get that 3D surround sound processing.
> 
> Selecting "Headphone" in the in-game audio most likely won't get you the desired effect.  Usually "headphone" mode is a kind of downmix to 2 channels, but it usually lacks the crucial HRTF cues/processing that makes virtual surround sound effective


 
  
 That sounds reasonable...in fact my question was somewhat ironic, since if dedicated soundcards would have been really so much of a vaporware, I'd guess the majority of audio pro users would have noticed by now...yet this market is still quite healthy.
  
 At the moment I own a pair of in-ear Fidelio S2 for my mobile/on-the-go music and the reviews and opinions of the Fidelio X1 look pretty good. What would be a good bang for the buck to get the best out of these headphones, in a game like BF4 on a Sabertooth 990FX with Win 7 64 bit?


----------



## chicolom

valid8 said:


> At the moment I own a pair of in-ear Fidelio S2 for my mobile/on-the-go music and the reviews and opinions of the Fidelio X1 look pretty good. What would be a good bang for the buck to get the best out of these headphones, in a game like BF4 on a Sabertooth 990FX with Win 7 64 bit?


 
  
  
 You can either go with _just _a soundcard and let it do the processing the DAC conversion and the amping (with it's integrated amp).  OR you can just let the soundcard apply the virtual surround processing than send it out to an optical DAC then feed the signal to an external amp. The latter obviously costs more, but you could also use it for music listening too of course.
  
 The X1s aren't hard to drive so you don't need a monster amp with them.  An amp like the Magni would probably be overkill for them.  The gain may be too high, forcing you to stay too low on the volume pot - where the channel imbalance issues are.  I'm not sure if there are any other <$100 desktop amps with low output impedance and either low gain settings and/or lower power output.


----------



## chicolom

I'm still flip-flopping between getting a *4670K* or a *4770K *for $50 more....If it was $100 more I'd say no, but for $50...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I can afford either of them.
 Someone talk me into one or the other... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 For an SSD, I looked at the options/recommendations and then ordered a *Samsung 840 EVO 250 GB*.  It seems to be one of the top recommendations, but please let me know if I should consider something else instead!  I looked into the 840 _Pro _SSD, but I'm not sure I'd notice the speed differences outside of benchmarks, while I _would _notice the higher/cheaper capacity on the EVO.  Also the lifespan on the TCL EVO should still be _plenty_ long for your typical (non write-heavy) environment.
  
  
 For motherboards, I've been wanting Microcenter to put some Asus Z87 boards on sale, but they're being a stubborn about it.  Actually I just checked and now all the Z87 Asus boards are sold out at my local Microcenter.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 There _might _be a Gigabyte Z87X-UD4H on sale for $139, which seems to be pretty solid.  Otherwise I guess I'll have to just wait a bit...


----------



## valid8

chicolom said:


> You can either go with _just _a soundcard and let it do the processing the DAC conversion and the amping (with it's integrated amp).  OR you can just let the soundcard apply the virtual surround processing than send it out to an optical DAC then feed the signal to an external amp. The latter obviously costs more, but you could also use it for music listening too of course.
> 
> The X1s aren't hard to drive so you don't need a monster amp with them.  An amp like the Magni would probably be overkill for them.  The gain may be too high, forcing you to stay too low on the volume pot - where the channel imbalance issues are.  I'm not sure if there are any other <$100 desktop amps with low output impedance and either low gain settings and/or lower power output.


 
  
 How about something like the Asus U7? It has a decent soundcard inside plus a decent amp, at least enough to handle the X1s, as I read some pages back these headphones aren't so demanding for amping. Would I still need the optical DAC for that?
  
 Oh if I may...I'd suggest, go with the *4670K* ...if you're mainly gaming the difference between the two is very insignificant, especially at FullHD and above resolutions. If you're hardcore into rendering and similar maybe it might be worth it...but we're talking 20% average in the best case scenario, so really stretching it here IMHO...just go i5 4670K with good mobo plus decent cooler for OC to get the best out of it, and save your 50$ for, I don't know...maybe Broadwell?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

chicolom said:


> I'm still flip-flopping between getting a *4670K* or a *4770K* for $50 more....If it was $100 more I'd say no, but for $50...:rolleyes:   I can afford either of them.
> Someone talk me into one or the other...
> 
> 
> ...




A year ago I would have said i5 for gaming but now with the new next gen ports around the corner, I think hyperthreading will come into play a lot more. 

Especially if we start to see more cry engine, UE4 and frostbite engine games which all use 4+ cores beautifully.

Just future proof and go with the i7 and call it a day. Like you said, you can afford it so just do it.


----------



## genclaymore

Yea I agree getting a I7 now is a good move, that way you don't regret not getting it when you need the use of Hyper threading and not have it. Since I planning on keeping my 1155 Z77 for a long time I regret not getting a I7 over a I5,because I thought I may not have any uses for hyper threading,Well I do now.


----------



## SaLX

chicolom said:


> The X1s aren't hard to drive so you don't need a monster amp with them.  An amp like the Magni would probably be overkill for them.  The gain may be too high, forcing you to stay too low on the volume pot - where the channel imbalance issues are.  I'm not sure if there are any other <$100 desktop amps with low output impedance and either low gain settings and/or lower power output.


 
 The O2 can easily be adjusted internally for different gain settings down to 1x (it's got an external gain switch too). You could conceivably order your unit at 1x gain.


----------



## motorwayne

chicolom said:


> You can either go with _just _a soundcard and let it do the processing the DAC conversion and the amping (with it's integrated amp).  OR you can just let the soundcard apply the virtual surround processing than send it out to an optical DAC then feed the signal to an external amp. The latter obviously costs more, but you could also use it for music listening too of course.


 
  
 Is it essential to use a DAC before the AMP if you're already going through the soundcard? Hasn't the soundcard DAC already sorted the sound, and isn't it just a matter of sending that sound up to the AMP for boosting? Why the extra DAC?
  
 Cheers
  
 P.S Get the i7 and be done with it...seriously, you'll need the processing power going forward.


----------



## motorwayne

Magni or O2 for AMP after X-Fi/ZxR?
  
 Someone said the Magni colored the sound more than the O2, anyone with experience in either of these?
  
 Cheers


----------



## SaLX

Motorwayne... in this situation you're completely missing out the DAC on your soundcard. I will be doing that soon when I get my external DAC/Amp. It seems a bit of a waste of a soundcard, but you're getting to use it's Surround DSP's and it's superior control panel. With my SBZ it's got great microphone settings too.
  
 If you've got an expensive STX or a ZxR, and you go optical then you're doing it wrong.


----------



## motorwayne

Oh ok. What I was thinking was you would run the feed from the hp out into an external AMP, that way its using the card DAC.

so you're saying external DAC is better in terms of quality?


----------



## SaLX

MW - yes yes - sorry .. of course you can do that too. With the Xonars use the line-outs.. with the SBZ's use the HP out.


----------



## chicolom

Thanks for the CPU advice everyone.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:


motorwayne said:


> Is it essential to use a DAC before the AMP if you're already going through the soundcard? Hasn't the soundcard DAC already sorted the sound, and isn't it just a matter of sending that sound up to the AMP for boosting? Why the extra DAC?
> 
> Cheers


 
  
 No, it's not essential. 
  
 I was just trying to show the two main paths you could take: one where the soundcard does everything and one where the soundcard only does the software processing.  You can mix and match any way you like. 
  
 I wouldn't necessarily recommend using an external DAC if you already have a higher end soundcard with a decent DAC in it, unless your external DAC is even higher end (like a Schiit Bifrost).


----------



## chicolom

Damnit Microcenter! 
  
 The 4770k is on sale the whole time the motherboard I want is out of stock.  So I had to wait.  Now they should be getting new motherboard shipments in this week, but they've taken the 4770k off sale again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Just keep it on sale already!!


----------



## SaLX

Hold up!! Don't know if the prices have come down in real terms yet but: http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/intel_lowers_prices_on_cpus.html


----------



## NamelessPFG

chicolom said:


> Damnit Microcenter!
> 
> The 4770k is on sale the whole time the motherboard I want is out of stock.  So I had to wait.  Now they should be getting new motherboard shipments in this week, but they've taken the 4770k off sale again.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I feel really glad that I managed to not only snag an i7-4770K for $200 prior to Black Friday, but also an Asus ROG Maximus VI Hero for just $130 due to open-box discount + $30 combo discount...
  
 Of course, I'm still envious of those Intel Retail Edge-qualified folks and their sub-$200 i7-4930Ks!


----------



## chicolom

namelesspfg said:


> I feel really glad that I managed to not only snag an i7-4770K for $200 prior to Black Friday, but also an Asus ROG Maximus VI Hero for just $130 due to open-box discount + $30 combo discount...
> 
> Of course, I'm still envious of those Intel Retail Edge-qualified folks and their sub-$200 i7-4930Ks!


 
  
 Yeah, you scored the best deal you can get on those parts outside of the retail edge deal.
  
 The key to getting good deals is to already have of your parts planned out _before_ November.  Than you can be ready for deals when they pop up.  I only started trying to research things on Thanksgiving, so I had to watch some deals fly by while I was still scrambling to figure which parts were out there and whether they were any good.  If I had known things like "4770K for CPU", "GTX 770 for GPU", then I would have been ready to pounce on the deals as they came up instead of having try and google and research them in realtime and race against the clock as deals faded.  I could have set up price/deal alerts on the parts I wanted and then just sat back and picked them off as they came up.
  
 I wish I had seen those "Tom's Hardware:  Best [_PART_] of November 2013" lists earlier.  They made the research_ so much easier_ than just googling tons of things like "7870 vs 770", "8320 vs 4770k" etc. to try an flesh out a hierarchy of parts myself. 
  
  
 Anyways, I still managed to get nice deals on the majority of my parts, but I still need a CPU and motherboard - and unfortunately CPU prices are much colder now than they were a month or two ago.  I've set up deal alerts on the 4770k, and I've contemplated waiting for one, but I'll probably just have to suck it up and bite the 4770k for 280 @ microcenter and then hope they drop it to 250 again within 15 days so I can get a post-sale price protection refund.  I'm not sure when the next time Microcenter will be having a sale is. :\


----------



## DJINFERNO806

So I might be committing blasphemy in the eyes of the this thread.  I sold my ZXR and placed an order for my new Audio GD NFB-15.32.
  
 I will grab a cheap Z oem soon when I get my Christmas bills payed off(GF gifts sent my wallet into a recession) but until then I will be playing my game in plain old stereo. 
  
 Curious to see how the 15.32's sound stage mated to my DT770 250 ohm sounds with no virtual surround.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Why not just snag a used Xonar U3? Gotta be less than $40, and you can hook it up to any PC. Set it up to output Dolby Headphone through the spdif out, and you'll be able to use the superior dac and in the NFB.


----------



## PurpleAngel

djinferno806 said:


> So I might be committing blasphemy in the eyes of the this thread.  I sold my ZXR and placed an order for my new Audio GD NFB-15.32.
> 
> I will grab a cheap Z oem soon when I get my Christmas bills payed off(GF gifts sent my wallet into a recession) but until then I will be playing my game in plain old stereo.
> 
> Curious to see how the 15.32's sound stage mated to my DT770 250 ohm sounds with no virtual surround.


 
 Your DT770s will sound nice hooked up to the 15.32.
 Just hook up the 15.32 using optical, to computer's motherboard, at least you can use the features of the motherboard's built in audio hardware, until you buy the SB-Z OEM.


----------



## Evshrug

*Chicolom,*
I just met a guy yesterday at work with the last name Chico. Aside from a moment of thinking I had just won the social equivalent of the lottery, I found out he pronounces the name like (think of the tea) Chai-ko. Is this how you'd pronounce your name too? Chai-kol-om?

Asus boards have a sterling overclocking reputation, and a few other features, but Gigabyte boards are also pretty durable for overclocking and have a number of great features, one I have and enjoy a lot is that the USB ports can provide power even when the computer is off (if you may recall, this is what made my Recon3D USB setup so convenient), enough to charge an iPad. If you see a gigabyte board on sale, I'd say they're well-worth looking into.


*DJINFERNO806,*
Past tense is _paid._ 
But yeah, if you haven't tried out Dolby Headphone, this could be an opportunity. You may know I prefer creative's solutions, and that they have the technical ability to create height cues, but still DH is no slouch and Asus' U3 is equipped with a 3.5mm/Optical combo output, and is probably the cheapest way to get surround DSP out to external components. Obviously money is tight after Christmas... but you could probably sell it later if you miss the Creative solution.

I'm going to test out the SB Z some more with CS:GO after I eat something, is it easy to enable OpenAL with this game? I'll also be sure to tell you guys what I think of the Omni in comparison (with the external tube amp), though the Omni is also equipped with an optical out...


----------



## DJINFERNO806

evshrug said:


> *Chicolom,*
> I just met a guy yesterday at work with the last name Chico. Aside from a moment of thinking I had just won the social equivalent of the lottery, I found out he pronounces the name like (think of the tea) Chai-ko. Is this how you'd pronounce your name too? Chai-kol-om?
> 
> Asus boards have a sterling overclocking reputation, and a few other features, but Gigabyte boards are also pretty durable for overclocking and have a number of great features, one I have and enjoy a lot is that the USB ports can provide power even when the computer is off (if you may recall, this is what made my Recon3D USB setup so convenient), enough to charge an iPad. If you see a gigabyte board on sale, I'd say they're well-worth looking into.
> ...




Lol had a derp moment there... This is what happens when you rush to post from work.

But ya, I had an STX before and I didn't like DH as much as I loved SBX with my z and zxr.

Ya source games are a pain to enable ds3d and alchemy nowadays. With my zxr and the right values all I got were audio artifacts and under water sounding nonsense. Maybe someone else can chime in with their successful settings.


----------



## Evshrug

Drat, really? Eugh.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Okay, since people keep asking me on whether the X-Fi Titanium HD works with Windows 8.1 with the current drivers, I set it up just to find out; the answer is "yes, the drivers install and produce sound".
  
 Problem is, I just spent the new year extremely pissed-off at Microsoft as a result. I forgot to disconnect the Windows 7 drive first, so guess what happens? Instead of placing the Win8.1 bootloader on its own drive like I planned, it plops it over the Win7 bootloader and destroys my ability to boot into Win7 at all.
  
 Attempting to use Startup Repair off either install disc is completely useless, the BCD's only gotten worse with my vain attempts to fix it, and at this point I've resorted to wiping the Win8.1 install for a second Win7 install just so it'll hopefully fix the damn bootloader for the original installation. This is why every drive needs its own bootloader, folks. Want to boot a different OS? Select a different drive in your BIOS/UEFI menu, and done!
  
 The prices I pay for curiosity and trying to answer people's questions...several hours down the drain trying to fix this crap.
  
 EDIT: Fixed!...no thanks to Microsoft. As usual, Linux saves the day.
  
 But I couldn't boot Linux on this system before...you know why? Secure Boot needed to be changed from "Windows UEFI" to "Other OS" in the UEFI menu, otherwise it won't get past the bootloader.
  
 So I installed Win7 over the Win8.1 drive, formatting it first, booted Linux off a USB drive, used GParted to copy over the fresh bootloader install over to the borked one, booted the Win7 install DVD and had it run a Startup Repair to fix the BCD, and NOW it all works.


----------



## Woesty420

Hey guys,
  
 3 setups in mind that I can't decide which one to choose. My main focus being FPS gaming with positional sound but also want great sounding music and movies.
  
*- SB ZxR w/ Sennheiser HD558s or AKG K612s*
*- Asus Xonar STX w/ Sennheiser HD558s or AKG K612s*
*- SB Z (for gaming), an external DAC at somepoint w/ Senn HD558s or AKG K612s*
  
  
 Which would be the best option without costing an arm and a leg. 
  
_*Is the ZxR and STXs DAC and amp plenty for those cans?*_
  
_*How much would I need to spend on a DAC to be much better then the Zxr and STX?*_


----------



## chicolom

The K612 is definitely hard to drive, so you might want to jump straight to a desktop amp if you go that route.


----------



## Woesty420

_*The onboard amp on the STX or ZxR wouldn't be enough your saying? *_
  
_*Or just won't get the same quality?*_
  
 Because they both say they will do up to 600ohm, and the k612 are only 120ohm I think.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Those specs are not truly worth mentioning. Impedance is not a cut and dry measurement on how hard a headphone is to drive. The HE-4 is 40ohm or so and it's a LOOOOOOOT harder to power than any 600ohm I've heard.

The AKG K70x series are all 62ohm or so, and they are well known to need as much as 600ohm headphones. Hence why you don't just look at some impedance to gauge how powerful your amp or headphone is/needs to be.


----------



## Woesty420

Ok I knew it wouldn't be cut and dry, with marketing it never is. *Are you saying those sound cards would be not nearly as good as an external DAC for music?*

I'm trying to get a setup for gaming as the main focus but also want quality music.

*Would the Z or Zx be a wiser decision for gaming than to get a DAC for the audio solution?*
Was looking at the Audioquest Dragonfly, *would that be better for powering a more variety of headphones?*

Not looking to spend over $400 on headphones right now but would like it future proofed somewhat.

I'ver been looking to improve my audio since I can't stand my Razer Megalodons anymore.


----------



## chicolom

woesty420 said:


> Ok I knew it wouldn't be cut and dry, with marketing it never is. *Are you saying those sound cards would be not nearly as good as an external DAC for music?*
> 
> I'm trying to get a setup for gaming as the main focus but also want quality music.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 The DACs in the soundcards should already be decent.  I wouldn't expect a huge change in getting an external one. 
  
 If you want to get another one though, I would try to get one that has optical inputs too, so you can use it with your soundcards if you want.  It won't matter if you have the best audiophile DAC in the world IF it means LOSING surround sound DSPs by using it.  I'd rather take a cheap DAC with surround sound over a high-end one in plain stereo.   A DAC with only USB inputs would mean you would you lose your surround sound processing, but with an optical DAC you could still use them.
  
 That Audioquest Dragonfly USB DAC obviously only works with USB, and it isn't going to be that powerful for powering headphones as it's getting all of _its_ power through the USB port.  I think it will struggle to power something like the K612, and it will have a weaker amp than the ones you get in a soundcard.  I would get a bigger beefier desktop DAC/Amp if you go that route.  I wonder what's the cheapest AudioGD box that has a DAC with USB input _and_ Optical input...?
  
  
  
 I wouldn't get a Soundblaster *Zx*.  That external audio control thing looks cool, but I've read that using _that _as the amplifier degrades the audio over just plugging straight into the soundcard's amp.  So the money spent on that audio controller thing would be a waste.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The ACM isn't an amp, its just an extension with a volume pot. Unless you really need an extension I wouldn't waste my money.


----------



## Woesty420

I was looking at getting the ZxR because of the reviews saying it has a better DAC and amp. Daughter board is pretty cool looking too, not sure what to use it for but I do like making music so could be nice.

But if I can get the Z for the same SBX surround features and get an external DAC to power the headphones such as an Audio Engine D1(it has the optical inputs to connect to sound card) *Would that be a better choice than just getting the ZxR? *

*Or will I barely notice a difference with headphones under $400?*

*Does the ACM module really detract from the sound that much?* (I like the ability to control volume from an external unit)

Audio Engine D1 has a volume control, so that is perfect for me.


Thanks for the help guys, this has been quite the decision for me. Haven't had to research this much on any part for my comp yet and want to make sure I'm getting the best possible for my money.


----------



## SaLX

Get the ZxR. I was in exactly your boat - I wanted an external DAC/Soundblaster Z (connected optically) solution to _at least _match the ZxR or STX. It's a more expensive option unfortunately to match the performance of those cards AND use the surround DSP's for gaming. Just go for the ZxR. See how you go, and upgrade from there if you want. Maybe just do it in stages.. unlike me.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/623079/creative-sound-blaster-new-series-z-zx-zxr .. do a search here, or even better read through it all. Look through this thread too. It's worth it. Headphones/sets and Dacs/soundcards... and amps ...are seriously by far _the_ most difficult thing you can ever ever choose for your home entertainment.
  
 $400 headphones.. !!! you'll notice a difference in music at least if you lay out that kind of cash with the ZxR.
  
 ACM has been discussed to death.. search for "ACM". In short, they're ****.


----------



## Woesty420

Ok, seems like the easiest option too. This way I get all the features I want and can still power most of the headphones I have been looking at without losing the surround features and what not. 
  
 I like the ACM for the fact I can control volume externally. That is also why I like the Audio Engine D1 which is roughly $170. 
*You wouldn't ever use it though? Not even for gaming? *(remember I have been using Razer Megalodon so all these options will own them in regards to quality)
  
 If anyone has experience with using a SB Z with the Audio Engine D1, chime in please. Otherwise I will end up getting the ZxR when Monday comes around. I feel like that will be a huge jump anyways from my USB cans and my old X-Fi.
  
_*If I did do the SB Z w/ Audio Engine D1, I would just plug the soundcard optical out into the D1 optical In and I would get the Surround features while getting a quality DAC/amp from the D1?*_
  
*Would the SB Z w/ D1 be noticeably better for SQ compared to the ZxR or would it be minimal?*
  
*S*orry I am a noob when it comes to PC audio, when it comes to cars It's a different story but there is tons of options for PC.
  
 Thanks again, major help guys!


----------



## DJINFERNO806

woesty420 said:


> Ok, seems like the easiest option too. This way I get all the features I want and can still power most of the headphones I have been looking at without losing the surround features and what not.
> 
> I like the ACM for the fact I can control volume externally. That is also why I like the Audio Engine D1 which is roughly $170.
> *You wouldn't ever use it though? Not even for gaming? *(remember I have been using Razer Megalodon so all these options will own them in regards to quality)
> ...




While the AKM4396 DAC in the D1 is actually quite good in my opinion(I would say its sq is somewhere in between the z and zxr), the output power is only 2vrms which may give you issues with higher impedence headphones. So that's an issue you may have in the future.

So unless you need the d1 for console gaming, just buy the zxr.

Unless you are OK with upgrading the d1 down the road at some point.


----------



## chicolom

woesty420 said:


> Ok, seems like the easiest option too. This way I get all the features I want and can still power most of the headphones I have been looking at without losing the surround features and what not.
> 
> I like the ACM for the fact I can control volume externally. That is also why I like the Audio Engine D1 which is roughly $170.
> *You wouldn't ever use it though? Not even for gaming? *(remember I have been using Razer Megalodon so all these options will own them in regards to quality)
> ...


 
  
  
 I wouldn't get the D1 regardless, at least not if your planning on powering headphones directly from it.  It does not have much of an amp section.  It only puts *~100 mw* into 32 ohms.  That's pretty weak.  For comparison, the TPA6120 amp used in the ZxR puts about ~*900 mw* into 32 ohms.  You do the math.  The D1 is essentially just a straight up line-out (2 vrms) DAC without an additional headphone amp section.  It's like powering all your headphones straight from an ODAC.
  
 Also, it does it all with a 10 ohm ouput impedance, which isn't ideal for something that expensive/weak.  The ZxR also has a 10 ohm output impedance, but at least it's _~9 times more powerful._  Putting the D1 after the ZxR in the chain is just going to choke the signal UNLESS you add another external desktop amplifier after the D1. 
  
  
 I would avoid using the ACM also, as it's known to reduce the sound quality.  It doesn't make much sense to pay more money for higher sound quality just to bottleneck it with something like the ACM.
  
  
 The ZxR is $224.  If you wanted to go with a SB Z + external DAC and amp for the SAME budget, it would be...
  
   $224 (theoretical budget)
 - $80 (Z OEM)
 _______________
 = $144 leftover for amp and DAC.
  
 Which would basically mean options like the E09K or Magni for the amp (~$100), and basically the D03K for the DAC (~$28).
 BTW, the ZxR and E09K both use the same TPA6120 amp.
  
 Of course, that's a strict budget.  With the external route you have the option of always upgrading either the external amp or DAC sections later (and individually) as your budget permits.  So if your going to be in the headphone hobby for a while and plan to listen a lot to the music, you might eventually do that anyways - at which point you would exceed the performance of the ZxR alone.  If you get the ZxR, it's perfectly fine but your stuck with the hardware on the card, so to speak.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Just an FYI, the zxr actually has 40 ohm impedence. The z has 30.

Just one of the reasons I sold my zxr.


----------



## SaLX

Actually DJ, that Russian site measured the Z at 18 ohms.


----------



## PurpleAngel

woesty420 said:


> Ok, seems like the easiest option too. This way I get all the features I want and can still power most of the headphones I have been looking at without losing the surround features and what not.
> I like the ACM for the fact I can control volume externally. That is also why I like the Audio Engine D1 which is roughly $170.
> *You wouldn't ever use it though? Not even for gaming? *(remember I have been using Razer Megalodon so all these options will own them in regards to quality)
> If anyone has experience with using a SB Z with the Audio Engine D1, chime in please. Otherwise I will end up getting the ZxR when Monday comes around. I feel like that will be a huge jump anyways from my USB cans and my old X-Fi.
> ...


 
 Have you considered getting the Asus Xonar DX or D1 sound card (used, $60) and a Schiit Magni headphone amplifier ($99).
 Your getting a nice external amp with a volume knob at your finger tips
 and the DX/D1 uses the same CS4398 DAC chips as the Z & Zx.


----------



## Woesty420

I've been looking at the Asus stuff, but I've been constantly reading that the SB cards SBX pro studio is much better for surround then the Dolby Headphone Asus uses and my main use will be gaming. I also was checking out the Razer Surround, but SBX is still more favored from what I have seen.
  
_*What about the Z with the Magni?*_ I will do some research into that DAC though and check it out.
  
_*DJINFERO, you didn't like your ZxR? Or just wasn't powerful enough for your use?*_
  
*How much would I need to spend to get a much better external DAC/amp then the ZxR?*
  
 This jump is still already huge from my previous setup, so I could always upgrade down the road once I've gotten tired of the new setup.
  
 Need to order me a modmic for whatever pair of cans I get, those look awesome!! I can wait for the order.


----------



## PurpleAngel

woesty420 said:


> _*What about the Z with the Magni?*_ I will do some research into that DAC though and check it out.
> 
> _*DJINFERO, you didn't like your ZxR? Or just wasn't powerful enough for your use?*_
> 
> ...


 
 Normally you would not want to plug an external headphone amplifier into a sound card's headphone amplifier, but I've seen at least one person have positive results.
 To out do the ZxR and still have a "gaming" setup.
 Audio-GD NFB-15.32 external DAC/amp, $255+shipping, with a SB-Z (OEM), $60.
 So total around $360-$370


----------



## DJINFERNO806

^ I can confirm the above statement. My 15.32 is still burning in but man does it perform. Wish I had my zxr to do side by side.


----------



## chicolom

The one thing that annoys me about some of the Audio GD amp/DACs is the _lack of analog inputs. _ 
  
 It's a shame to pay so much for a beefy amp like that and then NOT be able to use it with any other sources.


----------



## SaLX

Just got the Compass 2 and it features line-ins. Think it's the cheapest in their line that does it.


----------



## Evshrug

namelesspfg said:


> EDIT: Fixed!...no thanks to Microsoft. As usual, Linux saves the day.
> 
> But I couldn't boot Linux on this system before...you know why? Secure Boot needed to be changed from "Windows UEFI" to "Other OS" in the UEFI menu, otherwise it won't get past the bootloader.
> 
> So I installed Win7 over the Win8.1 drive, formatting it first, booted Linux off a USB drive, used GParted to copy over the fresh bootloader install over to the borked one, booted the Win7 install DVD and had it run a Startup Repair to fix the BCD, and NOW it all works.



I think I need to install a bootloader on my other two drives... I can't install Windows on my SSD that used to have OS X on it (before I borked it, OS X disk utility doesn't even see it anymore) but I CAN use it as extra storage if my IDE harddrive does the booting. I think you can guess why I'd want the SSD working. So, I need to research GParted, right?



mad lust envy said:


> Those specs are not truly worth mentioning. Impedance is not a cut and dry measurement on how hard a headphone is to drive. The HE-4 is 40ohm or so and it's a LOOOOOOOT harder to power than any 600ohm I've heard.
> 
> The AKG K70x series are all 62ohm or so, and they are well known to need as much as 600ohm headphones. Hence why you don't just look at some impedance to gauge how powerful your amp or headphone is/needs to be.




Just FYI, the K612 is different than the x7xx series because the K612 has a 120 Ohms impedance. May do a better job of dampening harshness than the Q701, and I like that fine plugged straight into my SB Z.

I do prefer plugging my tube hybrid amp into the SB Z's headphone jack though... I like the coloration added by the tube.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

@Sal,

Ya my bad I confused that with the TiHD ouput impedence.






woesty420 said:


> I've been looking at the Asus stuff, but I've been constantly reading that the SB cards SBX pro studio is much better for surround then the Dolby Headphone Asus uses and my main use will be gaming. I also was checking out the Razer Surround, but SBX is still more favored from what I have seen.
> 
> _*What about the Z with the Magni?*_ I will do some research into that DAC though and check it out.
> 
> ...




I loved the ZXR, it sounded amazing. But I also wanted an external solution for console gaming so the zxr had to go. My OCD would never allow me to have an external and internal at the same time.

Also the output impedance being quite high bothered me since if I ever want to use a pair of 32 ohm or so cans, it would affect the frequency response to a certain degree.

The zxr had enough power for my 250 ohms but if I ever wanted to get some 600 ohm cans, I would be at a power disadvantage. Or if I wanted to power my dream k712's.

It was a culmination of a few issues that resulted in just giving up on the z as a standalone audio solution.


On another note. I am actually finding that playing in stereo with my 15.32 isn't as bad as it was on my z. I feel the soundstage has increased and due to that I'm not as bothered as I thought.

Although its still not as good as sbx in bf4 when an aircraft passes over and its either absolute right or left. Bugs the hell out of me. But for just fun single player games I can manage until my z OEM comes.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I would generally and always stay away from any kind high impedance outputs to avoid mismatch and change of FGs, even when some headphones like planars are not affected. All headphones I owned responded best at <1 Ohm - in technical terms.
  
 I can see someone using a higher output to give his headphone more warmth (and lose detail in the bass for instance for more bloom) but if a headphone is that strident or bothersome then it should be replaced before experimenting with more gear. I wouldn't keep a Grado and do everything to make it sound "right". Waste of time and money. Look at how many people want to get the HD 800 "right" when in the end it's just not their signature. Yet they want to be in the "game" (
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) and like it because a majority does, because the press does. There's so much psychology involved in wanting to like things. Let go, it's ok to not like the Sennie, the Fostex, the Hifiman or whatever.
  
 The downside to a technical ideal in the chain is the price. After <1 Ohm output impedance you want noise and hiss-free signal with balanced armatures or sensitive headphones in general. That's where prices can go quite up, though in the end you can keep such a device for many many years.
  
 If money allows then the cheapest soundcard with the same software features/dsp should be paired with a clean external device.


----------



## NamelessPFG

fegefeuer said:


> I would generally and always stay away from any kind high impedance outputs to avoid mismatch and change of FGs, even when some headphones like planars are not affected. All headphones I owned responded best at <1 Ohm - in technical terms.


 
  
 Are we talking strictly direct output into the headphones, or with an amp in the chain, should output impedance somehow affect the signal being carried in any way?
  
 I ask to set up my usual spanner in the works for every impedance discussion: electrostatics. Nobody really gives impedance figures for them, just required bias voltages, but it's said that crazy impedance swings are part of the technical challenge involved in making a good, transparent 'stat amp.


----------



## fluidz

Hey guys, I use a Titanium Hd for the effects in games, connected to an external Dac and Amp via Optical.  I recently upgraded to a motherboard with Recon3d built in, I'm wondering if the gaming effects of Recon3d are suprerior to the T-HD when used with headphones?  
  
 Anybody have any hands on experience with both?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Depends on whether your motherboard uses the thx pro studio or sbx pro studio. Ive seen some motherboards update their software suite to reflect the later.

Thx is generally known to be crap and your tihd will be better as it uses cmss3d.

Sbx is a lot better and I would put it in a tie with cmss3d. At least from my experience.


----------



## Woesty420

So which setup would be the preferred out of the ones listed...
  
*SB Z w/ Schiit Magni (*can you connect them together, I didn't see an optical. That is why I'm wondering*)*
 or
*SB ZxR and then buy an external DAC/amp down the road a little.*
  
 The headphones I think I've decided on are either the AKG K612 or Sennheiser HD598s(a lot of used ones around my area)
 unless someone has a better option to pair with the above sound card/DAC choices.
  
 Thanks again, learning a ton on here. You've all been a bunch of help.


----------



## PurpleAngel

fluidz said:


> Hey guys, I use a Titanium Hd for the effects in games, connected to an external Dac and Amp via Optical.  I recently upgraded to a motherboard with Recon3d built in, I'm wondering if the gaming effects of Recon3d are suprerior to the T-HD when used with headphones?
> 
> Anybody have any hands on experience with both?


 
 Maybe you can try using both setups (Titanium and Recon3D) and post back the results?
 What external DAC/Amp are you using?


----------



## fluidz

purpleangel said:


> Maybe you can try using both setups (Titanium and Recon3D) and post back the results?
> What external DAC/Amp are you using?


 
  
 In my Sig


----------



## PurpleAngel

fluidz said:


> In my Sig


 
 You do know there are 7 different models listed as the "Musical Fidelity M1"?


----------



## fluidz

purpleangel said:


> You do know there are 7 different models listed as the "Musical Fidelity M1"?


 
  
 It's this one - http://www.musicalfidelity.com/m1dac/ combined with this amp - http://shop.emotiva.com/products/a100


----------



## PurpleAngel

fluidz said:


> It's this one - http://www.musicalfidelity.com/m1dac/ combined with this amp - http://shop.emotiva.com/products/a100


 
 I'm going to guess your new motherboard uses a Realtek audio processor, which I'm assuming is not as good as the 20KX series audio processor that is used on the Titanium-HD.


----------



## fluidz

purpleangel said:


> I'm going to guess your new motherboard uses a Realtek audio processor, which I'm assuming is not as good as the 20KX series audio processor that is used on the Titanium-HD.


 
  
 I assumed as much, I'll stick with the T-hd, thanks.


----------



## AvroArrow

chicolom said:


> I wouldn't get the D1 regardless, at least not if your planning on powering headphones directly from it.  It does not have much of an amp section.  It only puts *~100 mw* into 32 ohms.  That's pretty weak.  For comparison, the TPA6120 amp used in the ZxR puts about ~*900 mw* into 32 ohms.  You do the math.  The D1 is essentially just a straight up line-out (2 vrms) DAC without an additional headphone amp section.  It's like powering all your headphones straight from an ODAC.


 
  
 How did you come up with that 100mW @ 32Ohm figure for the D1?  Their specs only list the 2VRMS figure and output impedance and nothing else.  I'm still new to audio so I'm not too familiar with the math involved.  And that's like less than half the power of my E17's 220mW@32Ohm.  
  
 I do agree that the D1 is weak.  I didn't realize how much I was under driving my K702 Annies until I got a E09K recently.  Wow... what a difference it makes to my Annies.  My current setup is:
  
 soundcard SPDIF out > Audioengine D1 RCA out > Fiio E09K > AKG K702.65/Sennheiser HD598


----------



## Woesty420

_*What would you say the best DAC/amp would be to pair with the Soundblaster Z?*_ At a $300 limit on the DAC/amp
  
 The Schiit products look awesome like the *Magni*, but they can't be connected via optical to the Z as far as I can see unless there is another way.
  
 I've heard mixed things about the Audio Engine D1 in regards to not being much better then whats in the ZxR, so I would choose the ZxR before hand.
  
 Fiio e90x looks pretty sweet too, but again not sure how I'd connect to Soundcard. *Do I not need a Optical In on whatever amp/DAC I'd get?*
  
 If there isn't a better option I will get the ZxR for now and end up getting the Magni/Modi stack eventually. I like the look of those products and been reading good things.


----------



## chicolom

avroarrow said:


> How did you come up with that 100mW @ 32Ohm figure for the D1?  Their specs only list the 2VRMS figure and output impedance and nothing else.  I'm still new to audio so I'm not too familiar with the math involved.  And that's like less than half the power of my E17's 220mW@32Ohm.
> 
> I do agree that the D1 is weak.  I didn't realize how much I was under driving my K702 Annies until I got a E09K recently.  Wow... what a difference it makes to my Annies.  My current setup is:
> 
> soundcard SPDIF out > Audioengine D1 RCA out > Fiio E09K > AKG K702.65/Sennheiser HD598


 
  
 I didn't come up with that myself, I read it here:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/581815/review-and-discussions-audioengine-d1-24-96-usb-and-optical-dac-amp-for-laptops-and-computers
  
 There is an article by _you know who _called "more power" with a bunch of math if your interested though.
  
 The headphone amp and RCA outs are both 2 vrms max, which is not a lot.  That's a common line-out signal level on DACs (same output level for the ODAC), but it's combined with the 10 ohm output impedance which is going to reduce the power some IF you're plugging your headphones into the D1 directly.  So something along the lines of 100 mw into 32 ohms sounds about right.
  
  


woesty420 said:


> *Do I not need a Optical In on whatever amp/DAC I'd get?*
> If there isn't a better option I will get the ZxR for now and end up getting the Magni/Modi stack eventually. I like the look of those products and been reading good things.


 
  
  
 Yes, you need optical IN with whatever you get IF you plan on using it with your soundcard and KEEPING surround. 
  
 Any USB DAC (like the Modi) will NOT keep the surround sound because it's going to act as the first device in the chain and bypasses all the DSP processing done by your internal soundcard.  It's essentially connecting straight to your motherboard through USB and it doesn't care about, see, or interact with the internal soundcard at all.
  
 Only optical will allow the internal soundcard to apply DSP processing to the digital signal first, before sending it out to converted to analog by a DAC.


----------



## Wolfsbane

My old surround sound headphones on my gaming PC are in the process of dying, so I'm looking at picking up a new pair. I'm currently trying to decide whether it's worth getting a pair of "true" 5.1 surround headphones or using stereo headphones with virtual surround. Picking from Mad Lust Envy's guide, I can get a set of Philips Fidelio X1/00 or Sony MDRMA900 for about £180, which seems to be around the top end price for surround headphones (Creative Recon3D or Razer Tiamat). From reading around the site I've been made aware that the surround headphones are going to sound like **** in comparison the the stereo. So, two questions:
  
 1) Is the benefit of surround sound for gaming enough to make up for the drop in quality? Is there even a significant benefit?
  
 2) I'm currently using the on-board sound from my motherboard, which seems to be a Realtek ALC892. Is it worth picking up a separate sound card (guessing yes), and if so, how the heck do you choose one? There are dozens of them, with very similar-sounding names, and review sites don't seem to bother with sound cards any more. I could get an X-Fi Xtreme Gamer or Xonar XD/D1/DSX (see what I mean?) for about £50 - is that worth doing, or is there not much improvement up to the £100ish level?


----------



## Woesty420

Ok thanks a lot. I think I will stick with the ZxR for now because that already is a huge jump from my current setup and I have heard mostly good things. I can upgrade down the road to an external DAC/amp combo for music listening but I'm sure the ZxR will make me plenty happy!
  
_*Any good cans that anyone would recommend to pair with the ZxR to get the best sound? *_
 So far my top two choices have been Senn HD598s and AKG K612s with the HD598s leading just because I've found some good used ones at good prices. I've also heard that the ZxR wouldn't be best matched with K612s, or is that false?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

The k612 pro would be better with the ZXR since there would be less impedance mismatch at 120 ohms vs the 598's 50 ohms.
  
 It still wont be the perfect match as you need a 320 ohm set of headphones to completely get rid of impedance mismatch with the zxr.  Ya kind of high huh?  Exactly why I sold my ZXR.
  
 However some guys care less about the impedance mismatch than others so I guess if the sound doesn't bother you then you have nothing to worry about.  However my mentality is that if you are spending a premium on hardware why the hell should you have to settle for some companies lousy design choice in the amp section.
  
 I would therefore only recommend spending that chunk of cash on the ZXR if you can return it in case you arent happy with it.


----------



## motorwayne

What about a match up with Ti-HD in terms of the K612's?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well from what I understand the k612s are hard to drive so you'd have to add an external amp to the tiHD. I don't think its headphone stage is powerful enough.

But if you add an amp, you'd negate any mismatch issues since the impedence of the external amp would be the one that matters.

The headphone out directly has a high impedence as well.


----------



## Woesty420

_*So what does impedance mismatching cause?*_ I know with car audio you won't get the recommended power from the amp to woofer/speakers if you do not match the Ohms.
  
_*I'd need to spend a lot of $$ to get 320 ohm cans won't I?*_
  
_*What's lousy about their design? Isn't able to do work with varied impedances?*_
  
_*What amp would you recommend to pair with SB Z then if I had $250-300 to spend on the amp?*_
 I really want the SBX surround cause I hear great things and the demos I've watched on YouTube impressed me. But I don't want my music to take a huge hit!
  
*Lastly, would the k612s sound ****ty or just not optimal?*


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Fegefeuer explained why high impedence output is an issue.

Basically the 1/8th rule. Keep your output impedence at least 1/8th that of your headphone impedence. Any more and it affects certain frequencies.

Creative didn't have to have a 40 ohm headphone out but somehow they acrewed that up. I theorize they cheaped out on the voltage regulation and in turn had to add more resistance to help with people using lower ohm headphones so it wouldn't cause issues. Its a cheap way of regulating power out.

The stx has the same exact amp and achieves it with only 10 ohms. TI recommends a 10 ohm resistor for its amp IC, there was no need for more with appropriate voltage regulation.

If you get the z, you can add an NFB 15.32 from audio gd for $235 USD. Tons of power and dual Wolfson DAC's. Just an amazing deal. It has optical Input so you can keep the z sbx surround.

Thats what I will be doing.

Go over to the NFB 15.32 thread and read some of our impressions.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/648386/audio-gd-nfb-15-32-delivery-impression-thread


----------



## Woesty420

Ok I will do some research on that, little bit more costly but if it is worth it than might as well do the setup right from the get go. Having troubles finding places that sell it, can't find it on Amazon to ship to Canada atm.
  
*What cans would you get to match a ZxR and get the best performance possible? Or are there no audiophile cans that are good for it? *I definitely want a Z series with something.
  
*How much will it hurt the SQ having mismatched cans to the amp? Response won't be as flat through all the frequencies? *
  
 This has been quite the ordeal trying to find the right setup, and some stuff I can't even find to ship here so that makes it a wee bit more annoying.
  
 It also looks like the NFB 15.32 takes a little more knowledge to set up or get right to match the cans so not sure if that will make it harder for me or not.


----------



## PurpleAngel

motorwayne said:


> What about a match up with Ti-HD in terms of the K612's?


 
 The 120-Ohm AKG K612 Pro headphones should work just fine plugged directly into the Ti-HD's headphone output jack.
 Others have used 250-Ohm Beyer plugged directly into the Ti-HD, so I can't see 120-Ohm headphones having a problem.


----------



## PurpleAngel

woesty420 said:


> Ok I will do some research on that, little bit more costly but if it is worth it than might as well do the setup right from the get go. Having troubles finding places that sell it, can't find it on Amazon to ship to Canada atm.
> 
> *What cans would you get to match a ZxR and get the best performance possible? Or are there no audiophile cans that are good for it? *I definitely want a Z series with something.
> 
> ...


 
 The 15.32 can work with headphones from 16-Ohms to 600-Ohms


----------



## Woesty420

_*Do you need to order off their site only?*_ Because I'm having difficulty finding anywhere to buy one here in Canada. Can't find any on amazon or none used around here that I've found. 
  
_*Do you have any opinions on headphones that work well with the ZxR in case I go that route? Or does everyone just advise against the ZxR ?*_


----------



## Woesty420

Reading and learning about impedance's but it's not exactly the most easily to understand and match the right stuff with having little knowledge.
  
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/607282/headphone-amp-impedance-questions-find-the-answers-here
  
 Helpful but still confusing to a point.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

purpleangel said:


> The 120-Ohm AKG K612 Pro headphones should work just fine plugged directly into the Ti-HD's headphone output jack.
> Others have used 250-Ohm Beyer plugged directly into the Ti-HD, so I can't see 120-Ohm headphones having a problem.




From everything I have read about the akg K series, you can't just look at the impedence number. They are hard headphones to drive being power hungry according to owners and they are picky with amps too apparently. Once again I don't own them but that's what I have come to as a conclusion after research.

@woesty

You can only order directly if in north america from audio gd's website. I in the Toronto Ontario area and even with new years, it only took roughly 3 business days to ship. Really fast. I wouldn't worry. Also the audio gd has a 2 ohm output impedence so all headphones will work fine.

In terms of matching all you have to worry about is making sure your amp is 1/8th minimum of whatever heapdhones you want to use. That's it! Key word is minimum, doesn't have to be exactly. Just at least 1/8th.

Check your PM inbox.


----------



## Evshrug

*Woesty420,*
The 1/8 impedance rule of thumb may or may not affect the K612. Having a lower output impedance could keep the bass frequencies from acting as an always-on bass boost and a bit of treble boost at the limits of most people's hearing, but it may not make a difference, or the distortion may actually seem pleasing.

Impedance sometimes varies with the frequency of what note is playing (bass, mid, treble, example 100 Hz would be a low note in the bass range)






Impedance "mismatch" happens when the headphone has impedance that changes depending on what frequency is playing, AND the amp's output impedance is too high to allow for sufficient dampening by the headphone. If you see a "spike" or hill in headphone impedance, FWIR that means those frequencies will probably be boosted (sometimes to the point where they lose detail) compared to the rest. If a headphone impedance is relatively flat, like planar magnetics, the AKG K601 and Q701 (haven't seen a graph for the K612 yet, but I assume it would be like these), then the amp's output impedance will have little effect.

Most people besides headphone designers didn't pay much attention to this, until a guy (who has been banned) began a flame war about impedance and distortion and blah blah blah it got ugly. His example headphone was the Sennheiser HD650 (orange line on the graph), which he assumed was like most other headphones. The Sennheiser HD650 is not like all headphones, so... *the 1/8th rule is a generalization, following it won't hurt, but a small boost/distortion might be pleasant AND if the headphone impedance response is pretty straight, then it might not matter anyway.*

*I'd say, get the headphone first, and see what you think of it plugged into a home theater receiver.* Maybe your parents or friends have one. Receivers often have headphone-outs with an output impedance of like 120 Ohms, if that sounds bad with the AKG (doubt it), then you could go with the Sound Blaster Z or Omni route with an external Amp with low output impedance. If it sounds good, then the Sound blaster Z or ZxR may be all you need. I'm pretty confident you'll be impressed either way... I love using my Q701 or K712, I usually use them with a tube hybrid amp that gives a little color to my music (and also gives me a volume knob on my desk), but when I'm gaming I have no problem plugging them straight into my Sound Blaster Z. My AKGs' impedance is low overall (lower than the K612, 62 Ohms) so they don't need the volume cranked to max, but they are low sensitivity so they need a fair amount of current supplied at listening volume (which solid state amping, like that in a soundcard or the transistors in my hybrid amp, is good at) to keep sound smooth instead of grainy. The 120 ohm K612 ought to need a higher volume setting, but at that setting have an easier time providing enough current for a smoother, grain free sound. I expect the K712 to be a little more detailed and refined, but I'm still interested in trying the K612 anyway


----------



## Woesty420

Awesome that graph was helpful! I'm actually in need of a sound card more then anything else as I'm having driver issues every so often(I think). So no matter which route I choose I need a card to fix this problem. I just decided after researching that I would much more enjoy quality audiophile headphones over these Razer Megalodons, plus I love music so If I can enjoy quality music a long with the directional sound that will be mint! The AKGs have caught my eye the most out of the cans I have looked at so I will most likely go with one of their models. I do have a Yamaha Advantage receiver that I can try them on! 
  
 I've been recommended at going with the SB Z + NFB 15.32 which is out of stock right now. Can move to the 11.32 but it is a little more costly and detracts from my headphone budget.  Does look like a great option however! 
  
 But If your saying you don't think the 612s or 701s will sound bad on the ZxR I think I may go with that option because it is a lot more simple for now then ordering at multiple places and I can get locally to save money on shipping(always a bonus).
_*Which cans would you think would sound better on the ZxR then? The lower Ohm 701s? Or will they both be good, with the k612s just requiring the volume knob to be a little higher? *_Remember my present setup of a 3-4 year old X-Fi powering Bose 2.0 speakers and then my crappy Razer cans, so which ever choice will be a night and day difference.
  
 The reviews I've been reading on k612s seemed slightly better for soundstage over the 701s, that is why I have been considering those most.
  
 I do eventually want an external amp/DAC at some point, I just need something soon and I never like cheaping out on products! Also not looking to spend an arm and leg right now.


----------



## Evshrug

Right!
I was debating saying anything, because I like DJ and I don't wanna sound like I'm appointing myself as policeman, but if the AKG K612 are anything like my two AKG's, then I just wanted to say you would experience even just an SB Z + K612 as a satisfying upgrade!

You're right that the K612 probably will need a bit more on the volume setting, but even with the Sound Blaster Z (ZxR has a more powerful amp), I have to keep windows volume set really low to keep from being too loud... expect the K612 to be lower than 50% setting. Of course, the upgraded DAC in the ZxR would clarify some details, and the amp in the ZxR might provide more current and have lower harmonic distortion (there are benefits to upgrading), but either would be a nice upgrade for you now with every component you need, and give you a new baseline for appreciation. If you do get a separate DAC and amp later, the function of the SB ZxR or Z would be identical and sound identical: Process SBX surround, and pipe it out through *optical* to an external DAC. I felt very happy with my Q701 (plus tube hybrid amp), didn't feel like I NEEDED the K712 but I bought it just because I could 

The Q701 has amazing width and (with a good amount of current and high quality files) depth to the soundstage, pretty much tied for the biggest I've heard PLUS a fun involving presentation, from what I've read about the K612 from kman1211 it seems to have a little more relaxed presentation, with maybe less extreme spacing but a very natural soundstage that's easier to make "round." Either k612 or Q701 would be superb headphones, with just a slightly different presentation; choose which have stuck out as more interesting to you. AKG headphones do certainly look unique! Razer tried to take a page out from AKG's book, but they just look like baby AKGs  Feels great to have your ears free from pressure.


----------



## Woesty420

Your descriptions there got me excited! I will look more in depth at those cans and then decide. They both sound awesome from your description. I read a review on this site a little bit ago, I will have to check it again after I have been learning these past few days.
  
 I think I may do the ZxR for now and then choose between one of those headphones! 
*What your saying is, I won't need to worry about the impedance mismatch or anything using either on the ZxR with either of those cans? *
  
_If_ that's the case then I will be settled, which is nice! Been religiously reading and researching the past week or two! I will definitely pick up an external solution in the foreseeable future after what I have learned. I love sound quality and I love music so it only makes sense! This will just get me into the door for now and get rid of my annoying driver issues!


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well Ev, I don't like you now!! Lol

But seriously I am glad you did post that as its better put together and stated than the sources I've read. The blog by "he who must not be named"(who I could of sworn used different headphones to test this rule) and a few other comments on this forum are the only places that talked about output impedance. And the comments on here weren't the best explanation. But these were seasoned head fi members stating the 1/8th rule must be followed above all else. You can imagine how it is to a new head fi member getting this info and trying to follow it lol.

I should note that I did specify the high impedence output was only 1 of the reasons I sold the zxr. The main one being I needed an external unit for console gaming as well. The other was Moar power for future proof just in case. You never know right.

Perhaps we could talk a little more about the output impedance theory in a different thread since I don't want to derail this thread. But I feel there are some things I'd like to clear up for my own educational benefit and perhaps for others too. 

Also a lot of members on here state that the akg K series tends to need a lot of power to drive and this isn't evident in its impedance numbers alone. What are your thoughts on that and the z/zxr's amp?

I am planning on grabbing the k712s soon.

@woesty

The only other thing I'd like to say before you pull the trigger on the zxr is I felt like I wasted money due to the ACM and daughter board not being used. I felt like it was pricey due to that personally.

So I feel a duty to others so they dont make the same mistake. If of course you don't use those 2 things. I basically sucked up over $100 in losses even after I sold the card lol. Stupid me right?

Maybe get it used for cheaper if your OK with used hardware? I think the zxr alone with no extras and optical on the same card would have been nice at $180 ish.


----------



## Evshrug

@ the burning disk jockey,
*revenge of the Sith Darth Vader:* NYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAH!

But seriously, I've heard several good arguments about it for both sides, some of it in the Sound Blaster Z thread (ask SaLX), but I first started wondering what was amiss when people couldn't describe WHAT actually happened, just "bad is BAD!" and then it had been repeated a lot. Someone pointed me at NAG's blog (and I looked up the thread where he had been made not allowed on Head-Fi anymore), basically low impedance dampening was like... a big deal to him, and he started picking on sponsors publicly, and his blog has some good info but he makes some conclusions without thinking about the big picture. I'm pretty sure he found issue with the Sennheiser HD650, and followed up saying "I don't think any headphones have a linear frequency response," meanwhile headphone.com's graphs of the big 3 traditional flagships show that both Beyer and AKG's impedance graphs are quite flat. Even my V-MODA M-100 closed headphone has an impressively flat frequency response. As far as moving this to another thread... I've saved up a couple of sources and info, I mean to write-up a general explanation of my revised theory so-far (like you, I'm always learning and I try to stay open to that), but the 1/8th guideline shows up in tons of threads and is repeated often without understanding, so... I said a bit about it here. My impedance "rule of thumb" is, if you have a receiver, try it with that as an amp. Receivers often have VERY high output impedances like 120 ohms. Of course, they also have a lot of other parts and possible sources of distortion, but even my somewhat-cheap entry level Yamaha sounds good as an amp.

Actually didn't realize his capital letters were NAG till I wrote it there.

Anyway, I rolled in the answers to your questions in my last post. The AKG flagships have relatively portable-friendly impedance Ohm ratings, but they do better with desktop amps because they have relatively low sensitivity. Sensitivity and impedance are two parts of the equation of required amping, I'm still learning the best way to describe it myself BUT basically the low sensitivity + low impedance roughly = feeding the amp with more current gives you the benefit of smoother sound and less likely to try to scrape for current that's not there and make a grainy distortion sound. Then there's other factors like THD (Total Harmonic Distortion), powerful but smooth opamps/transistors, good sized capacitors, etc... I haven't sorted it ALL out, I didn't finish my engineering degree and instead studied fine arts (and made engineering a hobby, LOL). I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO CHANGE ANYTHING!! But yeah, the ZxR is clearly a fair midrange all-a'rounder by audiophile standards, other amps could be smoother and other DACs can be better resolving and support more HD (better than CD) music file bitrates. A good value, anything more would be overkill for gaming and anything CD-quality music compression-level or less... I think the Z is also midrange though, a step down but maybe the better bang-for-buck with most people, either first-time audiophiles or people fully intending to use external DAC/amps. The Omni is another low-cost option too, as it offers optical output


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Lol you call him NAG and I'll call him Voldemort.

Pm'd.


----------



## Wolfsbane

I posted this a couple of days ago but it got delayed waiting for approval so I'm not sure if anyone saw it - apologies for the repost.
  
 My old surround sound headphones on my gaming PC are in the process of dying, so I'm looking at picking up a new pair. I'm currently trying to decide whether it's worth getting a pair of "true" 5.1 surround headphones or using stereo headphones with virtual surround. Picking from Mad Lust Envy's guide, I can get a set of Philips Fidelio X1/00 or Sony MDRMA900 for about £180, which seems to be around the top end price for surround headphones (Creative Recon3D or Razer Tiamat). From reading around the site I've been made aware that the surround headphones are going to sound bad in comparison the the stereo. So, two questions:
  
 1) Is the benefit of surround sound for gaming enough to make up for the drop in quality? Is there even a significant benefit?
  
 2) I'm currently using the on-board sound from my motherboard (Asus P8P67 Rev 3.1), which seems to be a Realtek ALC892. Is it worth picking up a separate sound card (guessing yes), and if so, how the heck do you choose one? There are dozens of them, with very similar-sounding names, and review sites don't seem to bother with sound cards any more. I could get an X-Fi Xtreme Gamer or Xonar XD/D1/DSX (see what I mean?) for about £50 - is that worth doing, or is there not much improvement up to the £100ish level?


----------



## chicolom

wolfsbane said:


> I posted this a couple of days ago but it got delayed waiting for approval so I'm not sure if anyone saw it - apologies for the repost.
> 
> My old surround sound headphones on my gaming PC are in the process of dying, so I'm looking at picking up a new pair. I'm currently trying to decide whether it's worth getting a pair of "true" 5.1 surround headphones or using stereo headphones with virtual surround. Picking from Mad Lust Envy's guide, I can get a set of Philips Fidelio X1/00 or Sony MDRMA900 for about £180, which seems to be around the top end price for surround headphones (Creative Recon3D or Razer Tiamat). From reading around the site I've been made aware that the surround headphones are going to sound bad in comparison the the stereo. So, two questions:
> 
> ...


 
  
 No, "true" 5.1 headphones aren't worth it because their audio quality is inferior to stereo headphones with virtual surround.  The process of trying to force multiple tiny drivers into a single ear cup enclosure compromises the sound quality compared to just using two large high quality drivers.
  
 1)  Yes, IMO the benefits of surround sound outweigh the drop in quality from processing.  Games typically don't have _that_ high quality audio anyways (lots of compression used).  The benefits of surround sound _are _significant (if they work with your ears).
  
 2)  The different models of soundcards are confusing.  Generally there are two paths you can take: 1) Buy a cheap soundcard with virtual surround for the processing part, but use an external amplifier (and optionally DAC) to drive the headphones.  Think of this like a modular approach, OR 2) Buy a more expensive soundcard that comes with a better integrated DAC and amp and just use that to power the headphones.  This is more of an all-in-one approach.
  
 The modular approach will ultimately give you a bit better sound quality, and it gives the flexiblity to upgrade the components individually if you want to later on down the line.  Also, the DAC and amp won't become outdated or obsolete should a new soundcard come out with a better DSP.
  
  
 The three most popular virtual surround sound options are Dolby Headphone, SBX Pro, and CMSS-3D. 
  
 Evshrug has a good post detailing them a bit here:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/646786/evshrugs-if-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now-discussion-journal#post_9067400
  
 I also like Benbenkr's description of them here:
 http://www.overclock.net/t/1392877/a-couple-questions-about-cmss-3d-dolby-headphone-and-similar-technologies#post_20049831
  
 For Dolby Headphone, the Xonar DGX is the least expensive soundcard option.
 For SBX Pro, it's the Sound Blaster Z OEM version.
 For CMSS-3D, I'm not sure what the cheapest card is...X-Fi Titanium something or other?
  
  
 The MA900 and X1 are both great choices.  Are the X1 and MA900 the _same price_ where you're at?  Because if so, the X1 is technically the better headphone and I'd personally go for that one.  Over here the MA900 costs about $199, and the X1 normally goes for about $299, however it's on sale this month at Amazon for $249, which is a good deal.


----------



## avens

Can I say something that makes (almost) no difference whatsoever?
  
 I think this thread should be in the videogames section right next to mad lust's, both in sticky.


----------



## Wolfsbane

The X1 is 33% off on Amazon UK right now, so it's actually cheaper than the MA900. I can pick up that and a Xonar DGX for just over £200, which seems like a good start, and should be miles better than my broken Speedlink Medusa. From those links you posted the perfectionist in me can see the benefits of true positional 3D over 5.1, but it sounds like Dolby is ideal for open cup headphones and I have no pretensions to become a ~Pro Gamer~ any time soon. I can always add external bits later, if necessary.
  
 Thanks for the help.


----------



## Woesty420

I think I will do the SB Z for now so I can upgrade to an external DAC/amp solution in the near future!
  
 I kind of would like an external Volume control because I do adjust mine on the Razer a lot! That is the only issue.
_*Does ACM ruin audio that much when only gaming, or would it be barely noticeable in games?*_
 I can most likely do without till I get a DAC/amp.
  
_*Is the jump from the Z to ZxR huge in terms of SQ or will the Z still be good for either of those cans we have been talking about be good enough till i get an external solution? *_
  
_*What do most people end up using the daughter board for with the ZxR anyways?*_


----------



## Evshrug

Wolfsbane,
The quality drop from a "true" multi-driver headset will be greater than virtual surround, also you can't "turn off" having multiple drivers.

Woesty,
Sounds like you're nearly ready to make a choice, and start enjoying!
Total opinion, but I think the SB Z is enough to give you a good solution. Right now I use it with an external amp, and I'm happy enough with just that so now I'm more interested in using my budget in other ways... Olympus EPL-5 has caught my eye. As far as the difference between Z and ZxR, I'll defer to DJINFERNO as to the amount of change. The daughter board is for audio input, usually for musicians but maybe for YouTube casters. The ACM (only difference between Z and Zx is he Zx comes with this) apparently has a nice mic, but a knob position at any less than 100% will start to dull the audio in addition to making it quieter... if it bothers you or not is entirely subjective, but it DOES technically hurt SQ, and I'm not attracted to it.

Avens,
I agree.
But at least MLE linked it in his guide, so that's almost as good for how much traffic that thread sees!


----------



## chicolom

wolfsbane said:


> The X1 is 33% off on Amazon UK right now, so* it's actually cheaper than the MA900*. I can pick up that and a Xonar DGX for just over £200, which seems like a good start, and should be miles better than my broken Speedlink Medusa. From those links you posted the perfectionist in me can see the benefits of true positional 3D over 5.1, but it sounds like Dolby is ideal for open cup headphones and I have no pretensions to become a ~Pro Gamer~ any time soon. I can always add external bits later, if necessary.
> 
> Thanks for the help.


 
  
  
 Yeah, in that case I'd definitely go for the X1.
  
  


woesty420 said:


> I think I will do the SB Z for now so I can upgrade to an external DAC/amp solution in the near future!
> 
> I kind of would like an external Volume control because I do adjust mine on the Razer a lot! That is the only issue.
> _*Does ACM ruin audio that much when only gaming, or would it be barely noticeable in games?*_
> ...


 
  
  
 Can you get the SB Z OEM for cheaper than the SB Zx (Amazon is showing it's $40-50 cheaper)? 
  
 If you can get by with the SB Z instead of the SB Zx, you could take the $40-50 you saved and put that into the external amp (which will give you your external volume control anyways). 
  
 If you get the SB Zx_,_ you will have external volume control now, but as soon as you buy an external amp the ACM will become redundant/un-needed and you will have lost that money.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Hmmm the move from the z to the zxr was an interesting one for me.(and now back to the z again... Ughh)

I did notice an increase in clarity and detail accompanied with a warmer sound overall. I also felt my DT 770 250s were managed better. What I mean is with the z, the highs seemed a little too exentuated almost piercing and the low end was there but not very fun. It seemed to focus on highs more, I unno.
I assumed the z could drive 250 ohm headphones easily but I was worried about clipping after I did some math. I came to a 16 MW into 250 ohm number assuming it could maintain 2 vrms at that impedance. Then taking into account the higher output impedance of that card would limit power a bit more. I came to the conclusion it wasn't powerful enough and maybe thats why my 770s didn't sound right. 

The zxr fixed that issue immediately. Smooth across the frequencies now with the highs still pronounced but clean not shrill and the lows finally were fun and a little more pronounced. Mids seemed less muddy too. Keep in mind I like to listen to audio nice and loud so that was a factor for wanting more power too. And I was under the impression that the higher quality of the ZXR was the only way to go for a true audio experience lol. Naive me.

My PC350s seemed to be adequately powered by the z though. No issues there. They definitely benefited in clarity and warmness of the zxr too. Maybe the opamps themselves are attributed to this warmness.

Being limited by my vocabulary those are the only ways I can describe moving up to the zxr.


----------



## Evshrug

Chico,
The SB Z doesn't come with an ACM... Creative calls that package the SB Zx!
The Omni would be another low-cost option.


----------



## chicolom

evshrug said:


> Chico,
> The SB Z doesn't come with an ACM... Creative calls that package the SB Zx!
> The Omni would be another low-cost option.


 
  
 Oh right.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Fixed it.


----------



## Woesty420

Ok, so the SB Z will work for now, it just wouldn't be anything to write home about I take it!
  
  
 As long as the AKGs won't have any clipping or SQ issues then I will be happy with the Z until I get an external solution. As for the ACM I will just forget about, like you said most of the external DAC/amps I've seen have that feature. 
  
 I was really liking the look of the Schiit products (so I can say I have a Schiit stack lol) but the cheapest one with optical In was the bitfrost and that is a DAC, not an amp.
_*I want an external 'amp' more then I'd need a 'DAC' right, as the SB Z has a fairly good DAC built in? Or am I mistaken?*_
  
_*Should I not worry about the impedance so much between the k612s and q701s then and just decide on what I think would better suit my tastes? Rather then picking one to fit around the SB Z? *_
_*Will one sound much worse then the other on the Z or certain DACs? Which one will be harder to power and get a matching amp in the future?*_


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Since the 15.32 is now out of stock, is there any other Amp/DAC combo at that price range with optical in we can recommend to Woesty?

I'm having a hard time finding anything else.


----------



## PurpleAngel

Need Low cost FPS PC game for testing SB-Z OEM with all my headphones.
 Yesterday I ordered a SB-Z OEM, as I wanted test it's built in headphone amplifier to see how well it drives my different headphones (about 16 headphones). I'm not at all into FPS games (more like RTS games), so I need a FPS game for testing the SB-Z.
 I need ideas on what low costing FPS PC game to get, it's ok if it's a slightly older game, I just want something cheap, I'll be loading the game on to my SSD boot drive, which has about 70GBs of free space as once, so the smaller the size of the game the better, after I use if for testing I'll just delete it off my SSD hard drive.


----------



## chicolom

woesty420 said:


> _Should I* not worry about the impedance* so much between the k612s and q701s then and just *decide on what I think would better suit my tastes*? Rather then picking one to fit around the SB Z? _


 
  
  
 Yes, pick the headphone that will better suit your tastes, not the headphone that will fit better with the SB Z.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

purpleangel said:


> Need Low cost FPS PC game for testing SB-Z OEM with all my headphones.
> Yesterday I ordered a SB-Z OEM, as I wanted test it's built in headphone amplifier to see how well it drives my different headphones (about 16 headphones). I'm not at all into FPS games (more like RTS games), so I need a FPS game for testing the SB-Z.
> I need ideas on what low costing FPS PC game to get, it's ok if it's a slightly older game, I just want something cheap, I'll be loading the game on to my SSD boot drive, which has about 70GBs of free space as once, so the smaller the size of the game the better, after I use if for testing I'll just delete it off my SSD hard drive.




I have an extra bf3 CD key if you want. Got it during a humble bundle but don't really need it. I also have fear 2 and 3 I think.

@woesty,

If you want an amp more than a DAC, you don't need optical in at all. Just need a straight forward amp connected from the lineout(no headphone surround) or headphone out(double amping). Some of the guys have had success in double ampjng the z. Although maybe more input is needed on this.


----------



## SaLX

djinferno806 said:


> Since the 15.32 is now out of stock, is there any other Amp/DAC combo at that price range with optical in we can recommend to Woesty?
> 
> I'm having a hard time finding anything else.


 
 I looked and looked, even checking out respected (?) Chinese brands like these: http://penonaudio.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=18 to pair with my SBZ, yet I kept coming back to Audio_gd's. The components on the ZxR (taking into account the useless extras) and the STX are kind of hard to beat really at that price (I was always looking for an external unit that could at least match them).
  
 I think chicolom nailed it with the SBZ> optical > FiiO D03K(DAC) > Magni or O2 (AMP). You could replace the FiiO with the HiFimeDIY Sabre, they're both cheap. Then your AKG's will be driven well. MLE was really impressed with the D03K btw. As DJ said though, you could just connect the amp (a low gain one - I'd go for the O2) to the headphone out on the SBZ.
  
 I'm sure the 15.32 will be back in stock very soon - maybe they're having supply problems, but best if you email Kingwa and ask. I am _really happy _with my Audio_GD amp; it'll last for ages and handle practically any headphone I throw at it in the future.
  
 Purple... you can always try Planetside 2 for free... though it's not strictly a closed FPS. It's got pretty decent sound.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I forgot to ask Sal, which DAC did you get in your compass? Wolfson, TI, sabre?


----------



## SaLX

Sabre.... very very nice. Burning in and changing and getting better. Thought it thin to begin with, but boy is it good now. It's in no way sterile or analytical.. just dynamic and enjoyable. And the bass is there too and the trebles are just right. I will order up the dual Wolfsons to compare.
  
 ** Oh.. and it works perfectly out of the SBZ via optical: surround sound etc all fine. Haven't installed Foobar yet, but USB works well too... no pops or crackles etc on both connections. Will have to try the line ins at some point **


----------



## NamelessPFG

chicolom said:


> The three most popular virtual surround sound options are Dolby Headphone, SBX Pro, and CMSS-3D.
> Evshrug has a good post detailing them a bit here:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/646786/evshrugs-if-i-knew-then-what-i-know-now-discussion-journal#post_9067400
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice summary.
  
 For CMSS-3D Headphone, the least-expensive PCI-Express card option is indeed the X-Fi Titanium (non-HD). There are cheaper cards, but you'd have to go PCI, and we all know a lot of newer motherboards don't even include PCI slots, let alone native PCI slots without some kind of bridge chip that tends to have quirks with sound cards as opposed to native chipset support.
  


avens said:


> Can I say something that makes (almost) no difference whatsoever?
> 
> I think this thread should be in the videogames section right next to mad lust's, both in sticky.


 
  
 I considered requesting a thread move back when the Video Games Discussion section was first created, but figured that people looking for better PC gaming audio would be more likely to look in Computer Audio, and those who would look in Video Games Discussion would most certainly notice the link in Mad Lust Envy's thread there, as Evshrug pointed out.
  


purpleangel said:


> Need Low cost FPS PC game for testing SB-Z OEM with all my headphones.
> Yesterday I ordered a SB-Z OEM, as I wanted test it's built in headphone amplifier to see how well it drives my different headphones (about 16 headphones). I'm not at all into FPS games (more like RTS games), so I need a FPS game for testing the SB-Z.
> I need ideas on what low costing FPS PC game to get, it's ok if it's a slightly older game, I just want something cheap, I'll be loading the game on to my SSD boot drive, which has about 70GBs of free space as once, so the smaller the size of the game the better, after I use if for testing I'll just delete it off my SSD hard drive.


 
  
 My usual go-to titles for FPS sound testing are Unreal Tournament (the original 1999 release needs the Old Unreal Multimedia Patch for OpenAL support) and classic Refractor engine Battlefield titles (1942 and Vietnam for DS3D, BF2 and 2142 for OpenAL).
  
 Those should be plenty cheap and light in size these days, and flying aircraft in classic Battlefield is a great way to demonstrate 3D positional audio cues. When you don't have the luxury of TrackIR, padlock views or even hat switch view panning and mouselook forcefully relinquishes control over the aircraft (even with a joystick!), listening to their engine sounds is the best shot you've got at keeping track of what you can't see around you.


----------



## chicolom

chicolom said:


> Damnit Microcenter!
> 
> The 4770k is on sale the whole time the motherboard I want is out of stock.  So I had to wait.  Now they should be getting new motherboard shipments in this week, but they've taken the 4770k off sale again.
> 
> ...


 
  
 A week-and-a-half later and Micro Center _still_ hasn't gotten any motherboards in stock.
  
 What!?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

salx said:


> Sabre.... very very nice. Burning in and changing and getting better. Thought it thin to begin with, but boy is it good now. It's in no way sterile or analytical.. just dynamic and enjoyable. And the bass is there too and the trebles are just right. I will order up the dual Wolfsons to compare.
> 
> ** Oh.. and it works perfectly out of the SBZ via optical: surround sound etc all fine. Haven't installed Foobar yet, but USB works well too... no pops or crackles etc on both connections. Will have to try the line ins at some point **




I will be grabbing my z this Friday morning from my local ncix. They have the z retail at same price as oem shipped from newegg.ca so I'll just get the regular one and tape the LEDs as not to ruin my UV glow.

But to be honest I kind of wish I could grab a cheap x-fi to test cmss3d again. Its been a while maybe I could play with the eq and get rid of the tinny sound I didn't like. But they are hard to find in Canada in local stores besides the TiHD.

Oh well the Z and sbx surround make me more than happy.


----------



## SaLX

@DJ: Quite possibly with your new amp, which is a little warmer than neutral, it would naturally resolve the tinny surround from CMSS-3D (with a bit of EQ'ing too)???
  
 Just been playing some Insurgency 2 (great squad shooter) and by god SBX sounds good on it to me. Easily picking up footsteps, explosions make you want to retreat (k I'm a big wuss) and the sonics from grazing bullets are fantastic. This is on an open headphone. Ingame comms are very clear too.
  
 Also a quick note on the Audio_gd - there is no latency issues in games via optical.


----------



## motorwayne

Is it *ok/possible* for me to install both ZxR and X-Fi HD and their respective drivers into the two slots available on my MB to do some sound comparisons? Won't screw anything up at all?
  
 Cheers
  
 Wayne


----------



## SaLX

motorwayne said:


> Is it *ok/possible* for me to install both ZxR and X-Fi HD and their respective drivers into the two slots available on my MB to do some sound comparisons? Won't screw anything up at all?


 
 Good question... I know that you can have a Xonar and a Creative together, but two Creative's might be risky. Hopefully somebody can answer this.


----------



## Woesty420

I agree with Sal about Planetside 2, great free FPS with pretty good sound! Pretty hard to pick up positions though when you have 100s-1000s of people around!
  
*Would you say the Fiio + Magni or O2 would be a better option connected to my SB Z or will the Audio GD 15.32 surpass the SQ? or is it more just preference? *
  
*Do I need an external DAC or would just picking up an external Amp and connecting via headphone jack be fine? *I've heard DACs make difference in SQ but I've also heard they won't make that much of a difference...
  
 If I don't need the DAC I would probably just grab an amp and do it that way or I think I might just wait for the 15.32 as it is a way simpler setup and looks like you have lots of options for future upgrades and what not.
  
*You also mentioned latency, is there any worry about any of these setups with latency in games? *Do not want that or it defeats purpose of positional sound and being able to get the jump on people lol


----------



## DJINFERNO806

motorwayne said:


> Is it *ok/possible* for me to install both ZxR and X-Fi HD and their respective drivers into the two slots available on my MB to do some sound comparisons? Won't screw anything up at all?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Wayne




That's a can of worms right there man.

Even the creative manual for the z says you shouldn't have other sound blaster cards. 

But I think you should try and let us know of the results. Won't harm the cards, worst case scenario you'd have to uninstal one and do it seperatly.

@Woesty

I have never used the d03k but I can say it would be obvious that the dual Wolfson design in the 15.32 would be superior. Apart from the that, the separate power supply and filters added to the unit would benefit the noise floor and the harmonics in general I'm sure. How much better it will sound, could be a bit or a lot. Hard to say. Maybe someone who has used both can speak on that.

The latency issues a few reported with optical out was due to using Dolby or DTS encoding. When you output the stereo down mixed stream, its just a simple PCM uncompressed 2 channel signal. No latency unless your windows sound stack has gone completely bonkers. But you'd have this latency with all sound, so you'd know by now.


----------



## Woesty420

Ok, I think I will wait for the 15.32 to get stocked and then order one of those unless anyone speaks up. 
  
_*Would just getting an amp and connecting via headphone jack be better bang for the buck though, if I have a Sb Z with DAC interally anyways? *_
_*What bonuses/improvements would I be getting with the DAC/amp combo?*_  (only being used for gaming, music through cans and Bose stereo speakers)
  
 Just trying to put all options into perspective while getting the best performance for the price. If the amp through headphone jack would still be great, the Magni looks like a pretty good option at only $100 while maintaining good RMS through the lower impedances, and I don't plan on owning 600ohm headphones in the near future. Heard a lot of great things about it too.


----------



## Evshrug

I've heard a lot of good things about the Magni too. Good thing is, you can get the Magni and use it for a while, since SS stuff doesn't burn out you could probably resell it easily at little loss on the forum, once you've been a member for long enough. There's always new folks looking to get started.

Did you decide SB Z or SB Omni? My next computer's gonna be an iMac (unless I give into the expensive temptation of that shiny shiny smoked aluminum Mac Pro), so I'm going to need an external solution. I may be still able to return the SB Z I just got near the end of December, but I might put it up on the For Sale forum if I am outside the return window.


----------



## Woesty420

_*So If I chose the Magni for instance, how would the connections be?*_ _*A left/right cable into a single jack, plugging into the sound cards headphone output, then the headphones just plug into the Magni?*_
  
_*What bonuses/improvements would I be getting with the DAC/amp*_(eg. Audio GD NFB 15.32)_* connected through optical over just a Magni through headphone jack?*_
  
 I'm definitely going to be purchasing the SB Z for the sound card as I need a new card and this one looks like it has all the features I want.


----------



## SaLX

*My eyes!!!*
  
 1. Yes you are correct.
  
 2. The DAC on the 15.32 is superior compared to the SBZ's DAC. This will give you better detail resolution: namely, everything will be that bit more clearer. The amp section will be helping too, and in the 15.32 it was designed specifically around it's DAC. You're also guaranteed to have zero background noise (although my SBZ didn't exhibit this).
  
 If you go for the Magni or the 15.32 you won't be disappointed in games and music. The preferred "_no problems whatsoever option"_ would be to go optical > Audio_GD if you can stretch it. My advice is to get your SBZ and headphones and see how you get on. If your phones feel lacking, then go for either of the amps.
  
 Also if you are using AKG's you'd want a 15.32 Wolfson: it's been often pointed out that a slightly warmer (and perhaps musical) amp is the preferred choice with these headphones, ie the very qualities of the Audio_gd. The Magni is apparently a little bright and maybe not the best choice for AKG's (if somebody could confirm this). The O2 would perhaps be better or even a tube amp like a Starlight. You'd have to research this.


----------



## Woesty420

Ok thanks a lot, I will get my amp and headphones then this weekend and probably wait for the 15.32 to restock. Seems like the way to go!
  
 Was also looking at the Schiit Vali which is a tube hybrid so I'm not sure if that would help with the musicality and warmth. Although it seems like it isn't as powerful. 
  
 I'm going to do some comparing between the 15.32 and the 11.32 and see which one sounds more preferred for my taste. DJ was saying that would be an option if I didn't want to wait for restock of the 15. Just don't want shipping & misc costs from China to Canada to own me in price. 
  
*One little question, how would the AKGs k612s sound on iphone without amp? *
 Not a huge concern, but probably wouldn't mind listening the odd time with them through my Iphone.
  
_*Any all around headphones that would be great in all realms to recommend as alternatives?*_


----------



## SaLX

1. Probably crap.
  
 2. Philips Fidelio X1, Sony MA900, Sennheiser PC360 (headset for gaming) > you wouldn't really need an amp with these on the SBZ. I trust you've read Mad Lust Envy's guide?


----------



## Woesty420

Ok, no problem was just curious. 
  
 I've been struggling finding the k612pros anywhere in Canada and they aren't on Amazon.ca. (know is Amazon.com will ship to Can?)
  
 Yes I've read his guide, there is soo much I really do not where to start with it and he covers so many prices and styles. I'm specifically looking for open and $300 or under. The PC360 doesn't really appeal to me that much and the Fidelio X1s are almost $500. 
  
 My original choice was the AD700x but then I got reading more and there are be much better cans for music.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya amazon.com will ship to Canada depending on whether the vendor will. I have found more vendors who will not ship than are willing to. So it might be tough.

Where in Canada are you located. Music stores are the only place here that have decent headphones.


----------



## Woesty420

I'm from near Kitchener, Ontario. The store that I checked said they didn't have the ability to get the Pro models. 

I will most likely try ordering the k612s off Amazon.com and see if they will ship here*. I still have the opportunity to get hd598s for $220 used*. Not sure if that would be a good option or not. Will the k612s outshine those anyday?

I will also probably end up waiting for an amp/DAC for a bit as they are getting up there in price. I have about $400-450 to spend on Headphones and external DAC therefore I should more then likely choose the headphones for now.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

K612 pros for $199 CDN. 
http://www.headphonebar.com/akg-k612-pro/

These guys are based out of Vancouver so shipping is fast and cheap and no nonsense import fees.

I've ordered from them before. Recommend within Canada for sure.

I'd recommend the best headphones first within your budget with the z. You can always upgrade your source via optical down the road.


----------



## Woesty420

Ok I will do that, thanks a a lot. Saves me coin rather then ordering off Amazon.com and I can still get exactly what I want. What about the fixed cable.. _*Does anyone see that causing any issues in the future or should it live the life? *_Seems like a nice feature being able to remove and change like the k701s i think.
  
 I've always been scared with cables, mind you I have always bought under $200 or 'cough' beats 'cough'. That is why I'm here getting REAL headphones.


----------



## SaLX

Woesty - keep it simple mate and don't worry. Don't think about cables. I think we've all been keeping you right here - see how it goes.


----------



## Woesty420

Ok k612s it is! Can't beat that at $224 shipped! Along with the SB Z for now. Than will decide between external solutions in the near future! 
  
 Thanks a lot guys. This forum has been an enormous help!


----------



## SaLX

Get back to us when you've given the AKG's _a very good burning in_. They will very probably need it. Glad you got a good deal. Can't believe though that the Fidelio X1's are $500 in Canada.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Ya us Canadians get shafted for headphone availability and prices all the time... What's new. Come to think of it, we get shafted for all kinds of hardware and audio in general. Oh well.

Shouldn't complain, I hear the Aussies have it worse.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Hey guys,
  
 let's try to get more people to post in the petition. I Know DJ and a few others like benbkr are also active in other forums about audio. Some of them guys over there also have accounts here. Let's try to reach FiiO.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/699717/petition-for-a-gaming-device-from-fiio


----------



## SaLX

What about mirror posting a thread on any Playstation forums that are out there? Anybody registered on any?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Not to sound negative but a lot of console forums are full of trolls and flame seekers who would just turn it into a war. You'd get the typical "audiofools" replies.

Just look at my mirror thread on OCN, first reply is some idiot whos attitude is no better than Logan and Tyler in their recent "audio myths" video for tek syndicate.

Additionally most console forum members usually don't worry about the best audio. They are happy with turtle Beach and astro lol. I don't want to generalize, its what I've seen in my experience.

But its worth a shot I guess.


----------



## chicolom

chicolom said:


> Aaaaannndddd, here it is:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/699717/petition-for-a-gaming-device-from-fiio
> 
> GOGOGOGO!!!


 
  
  
 I've added an option to "*sign*" the petition at the top of that thread, so we can collect some of the interest via signatures.
  
  
Everyone interested in this (who wouldn't be) _please sign and pass it on._


----------



## Woesty420

Hey guys,
  
 Back again for a quick question...
  
_*How well would a home theater receiver connected via optical into my SB Z power k612/k702 cans?*_
  
 I forgot I could possibly use that as an amp until I get my external solution if it would be more powerful and better SQ then the sb Z.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Typically home theater headphone ports are the last place you'd want to. I did extensive research into this when I bought my avr. Most avr's have their money put into the amp and DAC section for speakers and then they spend a buck or two into the headphone port. 

Usually you'll get super high output impedance, and an audible noise floor. I mean quite a bit of noise. 

I know there are a few marantz and Yamaha receivers that are made to have decent headphone stages with virtual surround. But those are becoming more rare apparently.

My dt770 and pc350 sounded so anaemic and lots of hiss when I used my avr.

But I mean your avr could be an exception. Just try it and see.


----------



## Woesty420

Ok was just curious. Have one hooked up optically right now and seen a few people on forums that used cans through it. I'm sure they spent more $$ on the avr. Mines a few year old Yamaha so we will see how it goes!


----------



## Ari33

woesty420 said:


> Ok was just curious. Have one hooked up optically right now and seen a few people on forums that used cans through it. I'm sure they spent more $$ on the avr. Mines a few year old Yamaha so we will see how it goes!




Deffo worth trying.. My Onkyo 5.1 AV receiver sounds absolutely awful through the headphone jack while my Pioneer stereo seperates units HP out section is actually very good.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

So just installed BioShock(Steam winter sale $2.99) and tried getting openal working. I havent touched any ini files yet as some guides say it should be the default engine if the EAX option is enabled. If fmod is enabled then the eax option is greyed out. 

I set the audio option to 5.1 and I am getting virtual surround however its hard to tell if its openal or premixed 5.1 surround via sbx.

The EAX option is set to on for me BTW. And I can tell the difference, as there is definite environmental sound manipulation happening when in a fight. Not just reverb.

Anyone have experience with this?


----------



## Fegefeuer

go to C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Roaming\Bioshock\bioshock.ini
  
 and check the EAX settings there, like:
  
 [ALAudio.ALAudioSubsystem]
 UseEAX=True
 Use3DSound=True
  
  
 bReverb=True
 bEAXEnabled=True
  
  
 It's important to know that MacroFX is ON by default and it will be noticable in Bioshock, for the worse. 
  
 We really need the option to set MacroFX and Elevation to AUTO/ON/OFF.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

I noticed in that INI, that ALAudio.ALAudioSubsystem" was not set as the audio device to use but instead "FMOD.FMODAudioSubsystem"" was the default.

Surely these changes won't make a difference until I set the subsystem to openal. Just like borderlands 2.


----------



## noswej

Hey all, I'm looking for something specific and thought this thread could be the right place to ask. Summary:
 - Headphones must be *closed* and *over ear*.
 - Purpose: Gaming for fun, fps, rts, rpg etc. Movies and music (electro, chill, drum n bass, rock). Must isolate sound.
 - I am in Australia, land of the everything overpriced. Amazon does ship, but not all models etc.
 - Price range is about $200-300. <$200 is even better
 - Have no amp/soundcard  
 Thanks for any help, it is greatly appreciated!


----------



## DJINFERNO806

noswej said:


> Hey all, I'm looking for something specific and thought this thread could be the right place to ask. Summary:
> - Headphones must be *closed* and *over ear*.
> - Purpose: Gaming for fun, fps, rts, rpg etc. Movies and music (electro, chill, drum n bass, rock). Must isolate sound.
> - I am in Australia, land of the everything overpriced. Amazon does ship, but not all models etc.
> ...




http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-updated-1-9-2014-shure-srh1840-added


----------



## Fegefeuer

djinferno806 said:


> I noticed in that INI, that ALAudio.ALAudioSubsystem" was not set as the audio device to use but instead "FMOD.FMODAudioSubsystem"" was the default.
> 
> Surely these changes won't make a difference until I set the subsystem to openal. Just like borderlands 2.


 
 Did it work out for you?


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Well changing the audio subsystem to openal made the game have no sound whatsoever.  Also the EAX option was greyed out.
  
 Changing back to fmod brought the sound back and the EAX option.
  
 Just changing the Use3Daudio option and EAX option under the INI did nothing as I assumed its only when the openal subsystem is chosen.
  
 I dont know, this doesnt make any sense.
  
 I will say though, that I had a lot of stuttering and sound cutting out until I took the wrap_oal.dll from the windows folder and renamed it to openal32.dll and put it beside the exe.  Now i dont have sound cutting or stuttering.
  
 So I take it even with the fmod selected as the audio subsystem, it still uses openal?  This game is a disaster to configure for sound.  Before I bought my Z, I couldnt even get sound at all with my Nvidia HD audio.
  
 I am getting a proper HRTF surround mix.


----------



## Woesty420

k612s vs. HD598s. 
  
_*If anyone has tested both of them, opinions would be greatly appreciated. *_
  
 I can get both at roughly the same price and I've heard good things about both and is make it extremely hard to pick. 
  
 I've read that the k612s are very natural sounding with forward mids which I know is beneficial for gunshots and footsteps. I've also read that they can lack bass and some music genres won't be as nice on these. Some people also complain about the headband getting sore or uncomfortable, but it doesn't look like much of an issue to me. 
  
 As for the HD598s, they are said to have a wide and open sound stage and to be excellent for gaming. Also, heard they lack bass too but can do more genres, not sure which is worse. They are said to be more fun sounding while the 612s I heard will maybe lose the fun factor. As for comfort I haven't heard any complaints. Removable cable is also a nice feature.
  
 I listen to all music genres, with raw acoustic and metal being my favorites. But can't forget the classics. For gaming, I basically stick to FPS so I obviously want a great sound stage.
  
 Leave any negatives or positives, as both will help me decide.


----------



## Evshrug

Woesty, you posted in the soundcard thread... you wanna ask that in MLE's gaming headphone thread.

Also, how long are you going to deny yourself from just making a choice? Either would be a big upgrade in all areas from what you now have... it'll be worth it.


----------



## Woesty420

My bad, thought this was about headphones too. But he was just giving his favorites, I'll move this.


----------



## Evshrug

Faves are good, I'm just trying to suggest where you could get more opinions 

Still think you're ready enough to leave the nest and fly, little bird


----------



## chicolom

_Finally _Micro Center got some motherboards in stock.
  
 Time to build.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




(Wish me luck!)


----------



## Woesty420

Thanks Evshrug, it's just a hard decision! lol both sound great!

Looks like a sick PC build! Good luck on her! I love my gtx770! Keeping me happy!


----------



## SaLX

GL Chico... if you have any questions then ask away. Nice case btw.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Chicolom, I'm assuming you'll be using your sbz OEM out to something else?


----------



## chicolom

djinferno806 said:


> Chicolom, I'm assuming you'll be using your sbz OEM out to something else?


 
  
 Yeah, optical out -> FiiO D03K -> Matrix M-stage/iCan.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Awesome  +1 for DAT sbz optical out chain. Sbx surround with decent DAC and amp. Can't get any better for gaming.


----------



## chicolom

salx said:


> GL Chico... if you have any questions then ask away. Nice case btw.


 
  
 Thanks.
  
 And damn, this case _is _nice.  Just about everything is made of solid metal, and it feels extremely well built.  Just the top removable HDD cage by itself weighs 2.2 lbs.
  
 Glad I splurged the extra 25 bucks for the fractal case over the cheapo $25 cases.


----------



## AvroArrow

Nice, good to see all your parts arrived.  Is that a really big screen or a really small desk?  And are you actually going to game with that keyboard?


----------



## chicolom

avroarrow said:


> Nice, good to see all your parts arrived.  Is that a really big screen or a really small desk?  And are you actually going to game with that keyboard?


 
  
  
 A bit of both on the screen.  It's a 40" screen and the desk is 33.5" wide and 23.5" long.
 As for the keyboard, I prefer using game-pad, so no.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Should I plug the "HD Audio" front headers into the motherboard or the SB Z.  Looks like it will reach either one.  Seems like the SB Z would be more logical (of course I won't be using the front panel audio much anyways).
  
  
  
 I put the GPU in the top PCI-E x16, and for the SB Z I put it in bottom-most PCI-E slot.  I think that's the best way to do it, so the GPU has more room for airflow.  Otherwise I have to jump up the SB Z to either right below or above the GPU.
  
 The Z87-A's layout looks like this.
  
  
  


Spoiler: Here's how I have it:


----------



## DJINFERNO806

chicolom said:


> A bit of both on the screen.  It's a 40" screen and the desk is 33.5" wide and 23.5" long.
> As for the keyboard, I prefer using game-pad, so no.
> 
> 
> ...




Using a controller? U wot m8????

Heretic!!! 

Your not a real PC gamer!  lol
Jk. 

That build looks clean so far, cable management is key of course!

Here's an idea, can you start a new thread as a build log? Or maybe you didn't take too many pics? It would be nice to see it in a dedicated thread with progress. Also helps to keep this thread on topic lol(don't mean to sound rude or anything lol)

Also is this your first go with a sbz card?

Also you could leave the HD audio header out and not plug it in to anything. But technically you should plug it in to the z if you want. Since you should have your mobo audio disabled in the bios anyways. Its a key thing for add on sound cards. Too many realtek chips messing with creative cards. Creative even recommends this in their z manual.

Also if I remember correctly, using another 16x slot automatically puts your primary x16 slot into 8x mode. It shouldn't be a huge issue with pcie 3.0 speeds but you may lose 1-2 fps with less bandwidth. Maybe not, depending on how much the 770 is putting out. Its more of a principle thing.

When I had my zxr, I was running it above my 680 and there were no issues with heat. And you have less chance for emi coming off the GPU and hitting the z. I believe the PCB acts as a natural Faraday cage on top and its also grounded in 2 layers. I know you won't be using the audio out analogue from the z but once again just my own OCD and principle


----------



## motorwayne

chicolom said:


> _Finally _Micro Center got some motherboards in stock.
> 
> Time to build.
> 
> ...


 
 Nice, love doing builds, its the best part of PC gaming.
  
 Fun to the max!
  
 Wayne


----------



## SaLX

Yeah, post up a new thread and I'm sure a few of us will sub to help out. I certainly will.
  
 Gawd that pic looks sexy. My old case (and I want it replaced by THAT case you have, or maybe any of the other Corsairs) has the PSU at the top.... always was a silly place to put it. These new boxes have the ability to route the cables behind the mobo to make it all clean n tidy. Having side facing HD bays is a must have...... me reaches for wallet.
  
 Happy you went with the Asus.. if at the very least you're a bit queezy about overclocking, then the Asus AI suite truly is a breeze. It eats up a _bit_ more system resources, but so what these days? I use it now and I've been OC'ing PC's for over 15 years/ 20+ PC's built. The experts may sniff, but this is 2014.
  
 Think you'll like the SBZ. The best thing, at least for me, is that surround doesn't compromise the SQ that much. Quite often I think I'm listening to stereo in Windows and I've gone and forgot to turn off surround. I'd have never made that mistake with DH. Mileage varies though......
  
_**** Edit .. goddam it DJ.. I went and put my SBZ into my spare x16 slot, not the dedicated one next to my CPU..ggrrrr ****_


----------



## Woesty420

Sounds like I will like my Z and enjoy the SBX  

Was reading what DJ said, I'm going to be running sli 770s soon therefore I cannot put my Z above my cards, will this make a huge difference in EMI(think that's what it's called) or SQ? Won't have tons if room when I get both cards in there.


----------



## SaLX

Well I got a SBZ (replaced the OEM non-shielded).. both had zero background noise in an overclocked case (both GPU and CPU). I've got good components though, inc a Corsair (rebadged Seasonic) PSU.


----------



## ATLien3000

Are astro a40s and Miami worth $180 or should I buy a headphone for that price? I'm looking to spend up to $200.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

woesty420 said:


> Sounds like I will like my Z and enjoy the SBX
> 
> Was reading what DJ said, I'm going to be running sli 770s soon therefore I cannot put my Z above my cards, will this make a huge difference in EMI(think that's what it's called) or SQ? Won't have tons if room when I get both cards in there.




I don't know how much difference it would make in EMI to you. I know I had issues with that years ago. Placed it on top and it stopped whining and weird cap/vrm noise when I'd game. You have a 1x slot on top of the video card right? Use that one. Its gonna be empty anyway isn't it?

Anyway I really think we should move this to a separate thread just out of respect.


----------



## AvroArrow

chicolom said:


> A bit of both on the screen.  It's a 40" screen and the desk is 33.5" wide and 23.5" long.
> As for the keyboard, I prefer using game-pad, so no.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ahh, that's why it looks so big.  I've got a 27" Dell monitor on a 48" wide desk and it looks a lot smaller relative to the desk.  If you were going to game with that particular keyboard I was going to suggest some better mechanical alternatives.  
  
 Yeah, plug the front headers into the SBZ if it will reach since you will be disabling the onboard sound.
  
 Your current card layout is fine, for both heat and EMI.  The back of the video card pumps out lots of heat so it's not the ideal place to put any card if you can avoid it.
  


djinferno806 said:


> Also if I remember correctly, using another 16x slot automatically puts your primary x16 slot into 8x mode. It shouldn't be a huge issue with pcie 3.0 speeds but you may lose 1-2 fps with less bandwidth. Maybe not, depending on how much the 770 is putting out. Its more of a principle thing.


 
  
 That varies depending on the chipset and slot layout.  I checked the manual for the Z87-A and PCIEX16_1 only goes into 8x mode if another card is in PCIEX16_2.  His SBZ is in slot PCIEX16_3 so his video card slot stays in 16x mode.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

avroarrow said:


> Ahh, that's why it looks so big.  I've got a 27" Dell monitor on a 48" wide desk and it looks a lot smaller relative to the desk.  If you were going to game with that particular keyboard I was going to suggest some better mechanical alternatives.
> 
> Yeah, plug the front headers into the SBZ if it will reach since you will be disabling the onboard sound.
> 
> ...




Ya I checked the specs afterwards and the 3rd slot is actually only wired for 2x so its probably run off the pch like the other 1x slots. Lol too quick on the gun there.

The other reason why I'd recommend him moving it is he said he's gonna go sli which means the z will somewhat block the other 770 fan. With the z in the first 1x slot, its ideal for his GPU and heat coming off the back of the 770 PCB is not as bad as you make it seem. Its warm to the touch however with positive case pressure, that's not an issue. I've run that config for years with no issues.

But seriously we should move this discussion to another thread. Its getting too off topic.

@ATlien3000

That's big negative on a headset. 

Your money is better spent on headphones. I'm assuming u mean the mixamp? Not Miami lol

What do you need it for? Console gaming? 

Go here to get headphone recommendations.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-updated-1-9-2014-shure-srh1840-added


----------



## ATLien3000

Haha yeah mixamp autocorrected to Miami. I need it mainly for PC gaming with some PS4 and music. All genres. I'll listen to everything from hip hop to classical and jazz. 



djinferno806 said:


> Ya I checked the specs afterwards and the 3rd slot is actually only wired for 2x so its probably run off the pch like the other 1x slots. Lol too quick on the gun there.
> 
> The other reason why I'd recommend him moving it is he said he's gonna go sli which means the z will somewhat block the other 770 fan. With the z in the first 1x slot, its ideal for his GPU and heat coming off the back of the 770 PCB is not as bad as you make it seem. Its warm to the touch however with positive case pressure, that's not an issue. I've run that config for years with no issues.
> 
> ...


----------



## SaLX

@ATlien3000 > the only headset I would ever consider is the Sennheiser PC360. I've heard one: great for sound positioning. It's basically a 595 (or 598??) that you can get for much cheaper, however the utility of a boom mic cannot be underestimated.
  
 Asus "Sonic Radar" overlay. I'd heard about it (it's only available for the Phoebus and the ROG SupremeFX mobos), but I had a look on Youtube. I thought this may have been a big cheat, but er lol...
  

  
 Halfway through our intrepid author shows off footstep detection etc.


----------



## chicolom

salx said:


> *Asus "Sonic Radar" overlay*. I'd heard about (it's only available for the Phoebus and the ROG SupremeFX mobos), but I had a look on Youtube. I thought this may have been a big cheat, but er lol...
> 
> Halfway through our intrepid author shows off footstep detection etc.


 
  
  
 Hmm...seems kind of obvious and not that helpful.  I think If your audio is bad enough that THAT is a big help, you've got some audio issues to sort out (like - are you playing in MONO? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## chicolom

I've thread-jacked enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Here's another thread to continue the off-topic build-help discussion:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/700485/chicoloms-off-topic-pc-build-discussion

  
 If anyone who's been helping me here wants to pop over and subscribe, that would be awesome.  And thanks again everyone for being so helpful!


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Chico, got rid of your K712? :eek:


----------



## chicolom

mad lust envy said:


> Chico, got rid of your K712?


 
  
 Yeah, a while ago.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Not because I don't like it obviously (it's probably the best mid-fi can I've heard), but simply so I could fund either the K812 or HD800.  The K812 was _supposed _to come out mid-November, but it got delayed two months (it's just now coming out in January).  So I got tired of waiting and spent those funds on a new PC in the meantime.
  
 So now I have to hold off on a headphone upgrade.  I'm just rolling with the X1 now (and KSCs of course), but I still plan on upgrading to _probably _the K812, whenever my funds replenish (could be a while though).


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

or an HE560... LOLAMRITE


----------



## chicolom

No doubt.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Still waiting to see what sort of improvements the HE400i will make over the HE400. If they can get the upper mids raised and treble reduced... that's gonna be one HELL of a headphone to beat. Bass and most of it's mids were perfect.


----------



## chicolom

mad lust envy said:


> Still waiting to see what sort of improvements the HE400i will make over the HE400.


 
  
 Hmm.
  
 Apart from that wide "cyberman" headband frame, it looks a bit nicer than the old HE400.  More smooth rounded edges and a nicer finish.  Parts of the HE400 looked like a DIY headphone that someone built in their garage.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

As someone who JUST finished Season 2 of Doctor Who, the Cybermen reference is very fresh to me. 

And I agree on the whole DiY look of the older HFM lineup. I thought most of it was exquisite, with the exception of the large circular thing that had the Hifiman branding. It just stuck out and was an eyesore to me.

I didn't love the HE-400's color, and preferred the HE-4's sleek black finish, which was like the HE-6s.



The cups themselves look like the old ones, but the headband assembly looks like an improvement, though it doesn't sit flush on the head, so it won't be as pretty worn.

Glad they went back to black.


----------



## NamelessPFG

salx said:


> @ATlien3000 > the only headset I would ever consider is the Sennheiser PC360. I've heard one: great for sound positioning. It's basically a 595 (or 598??) that you can get for much cheaper, however the utility of a boom mic cannot be underestimated.
> 
> Asus "Sonic Radar" overlay. I'd heard about it (it's only available for the Phoebus and the ROG SupremeFX mobos), but I had a look on Youtube. I thought this may have been a big cheat, but er lol...
> 
> ...




  
 I'd also throw in the Beyerdynamic MMX 300 into the "headsets that don't suck" list...but there's no way I'd pay the usual $275-300 for one, either. If they were more regularly sold around $165 like the PC360, the decision would be a lot tougher.
  
 Also, it's sort of relieving that someone tested out Sonic Radar so I don't have to. (Don't want to risk Realtek drivers somehow screwing things up with my X-Fi.) As expected, when all it has to go by are 7.1 speaker positions, it doesn't really work out all that spectacularly to warrant giving up a good headphone surround mix, and on that note, I'm rather baffled by Asus' decision to NOT license Dolby Headphone or X-Fi MB3/SBX Pro Surround for their current motherboard lineup with that "SupremeFX" branding.
  


mad lust envy said:


> Still waiting to see what sort of improvements the HE400i will make over the HE400. If they can get the upper mids raised and treble reduced... that's gonna be one HELL of a headphone to beat. Bass and *most of it's mids* were perfect.


 
  
 Now I have to question where the midrange really lies relative to vocals, because...well, the HE-400 didn't really do it for me there. At all. Far from perfect. Same problems the SR-202 + SRM-212 had.
  
 My ideal would be the SR-Lambda, but you haven't had the chance to listen to one of those, and I haven't had the chance to listen to the ESP/950 (let alone off a good Stax amp, which supposedly changes the sound presentation quite noticeably for the better over the stock E/90), so it's hard for us to come up with a common ground on what's ideal.


----------



## roguegeek

mad lust envy said:


> Still waiting to see what sort of improvements the HE400i will make over the HE400. If they can get the upper mids raised and treble reduced... that's gonna be one HELL of a headphone to beat. Bass and most of it's mids were perfect.


 
 Just sold my HE-400 because I couldn't deal with all of the issues anymore and that experience pretty much turned me off from wanting to purchase the HE-500 as well. I'm hoping the HE-560 is the answer I'm looking for with the terribly flawed HE-400.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

namelesspfg said:


> I'd also throw in the Beyerdynamic MMX 300 into the "headsets that don't suck" list...but there's no way I'd pay the usual $275-300 for one, either. If they were more regularly sold around $165 like the PC360, the decision would be a lot tougher.
> 
> Also, it's sort of relieving that someone tested out Sonic Radar so I don't have to. (Don't want to risk Realtek drivers somehow screwing things up with my X-Fi.) As expected, when all it has to go by are 7.1 speaker positions, it doesn't really work out all that spectacularly to warrant giving up a good headphone surround mix, and on that note, I'm rather baffled by Asus' decision to NOT license Dolby Headphone or X-Fi MB3/SBX Pro Surround for their current motherboard lineup with that "SupremeFX" branding.
> 
> ...




Nameless, that's because the HE-400 has a huge upper midrange suck out. That was what I'm talking about. However, it's lower mids were absolutely perfect and basically a straight line from the beginning of bass all the way to it's mids, where it starts dipping a bit too much going to it's upper mids. This, in turn with the sudden, HUMONGOUS spike in treble basically just made the HE-400's upper range sound a bit messy up top.


----------



## NamelessPFG

So you're saying the upper midrange is where the vocals tend to lie? I'll make note of that when reading headphone reviews later.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

http://mikfielding.com/EQ_Sound_Frequencies.shtml

IIRC, the HE400 starts dipping right after 4khz. It's basically smothering up all the clarity in vocals if you compare it to the Stax method of leaving these areas quite upfront. However, the lower to middle range is perfectly intact. Male vocals are absolutely stellar on the HE400 most of the time. Female vocals do tend to creep up to the upper mids much more than male vocals.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Yeah, I only liked HE-400 for it's bass presentation, mids and highs were lacking. Mids are so much better on the HE-500 which is a overall better headphone to me. The problem of the Hifiman headphones is  the DIY look for the price. That's why the HE-6 never found its way to me.
  
 I want a planar again for their unique presentation (tactile bass, beautiful mids) but I won't be buying a headphone on day one again, especially no Hifiman.
  
 Gaming-wise they never did it for me, soundstage and the "creation" of the space was always subpar for me with LCD-2, HE-500/400. I remember comparing the T90 to the HE-500. HE-500 with T90 soundstage/imaging (just to stay in the similar price range)? Hell yeah man. That would be absolutely lovely.


----------



## roguegeek

fegefeuer said:


> Yeah, I only liked HE-400 for it's bass presentation, mids and highs were lacking. Mids are so much better on the HE-500 which is a overall better headphone to me. The problem of the Hifiman headphones is  the DIY look for the price. That's why the HE-6 never found its way to me.
> 
> I want a planar again for their unique presentation (tactile bass, beautiful mids) but I won't be buying a headphone on day one again, especially no Hifiman.
> 
> Gaming-wise they never did it for me, soundstage and the "creation" of the space was always subpar for me with LCD-2, HE-500/400. I remember comparing the T90 to the HE-500. HE-500 with T90 soundstage/imaging (just to stay in the similar price range)? Hell yeah man. That would be absolutely lovely.




I'll have to agree with you here. These seem to get more acclaim than they deserve, particularly in the gaming headphone thread. The bass is their only redeeming quality. Not the mids, definitely not the treble, not the detail or soundstage, not the build quality, and most definitely not the weight or comfort. I just got rid of my pair this week, but I'm cautiously optimistic for the HE-560.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

So it seems the general consensus is stay away from the HE-400/500's for gaming at least.

Was actually thinking about these instead of the k712s... Well that's a big nope nope nope now.


----------



## chicolom

djinferno806 said:


> So it seems the general consensus is stay away from the HE-400/500's for gaming at least.
> 
> Was actually thinking about these instead of the k712s... Well that's a big nope nope nope now.


 
  
  
 I wouldn't necessarily say "stay away" from them, but there _are _better choices for gaming as they get beat by several of the mid-fi dynamics in soundstaging.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

The HE-400s are all rounders for gaming, with arguably the best bass in their price range. All rounders do not tend to beat others that are more specialized in specific categories. However, as far as headphones that cater to many things at once, the HE-400 is an easy recommendation for all around purpose, with those caveats that it has.

besides, the LCD2 and HE-400 i was specifically clear in what they do wrong. Anyways, the LCD2 is a music headphone first. gaming comes secondary. For music, they are absolutely DIVINE.


----------



## SaLX

namelesspfg said:


> Asus' decision to NOT license Dolby Headphone or X-Fi MB3/SBX Pro Surround for their current motherboard lineup with that "SupremeFX" branding.


 
  
 I've not really heard much talk about Dolby Home Theatre v4 - basically it' _appears to be _Dolby Headphone (using the surround virtualizer) with granular controls: ie you can EQ it. This must be an improvement over the old DH 1, 2 or 3 presets. Anybody here had a chance to use it?
  
 http://workarea-www.dolby.com/in/en/consumer/technology/pc/dolby-home-theater-v4.html


----------



## MrEleventy

I've left the PC gaming scene quite a few years back when I decided to give up the constant upgrading cycles and just bought an xbox 360. This Christmas, I got a laptop that plays a decent amount of games at a decent quality and performance. Tie that in with the steam sale and now I'm loaded with games for pretty cheap. So far I've only been amping the HP jack so I can use my dt880/600s (Not ideal). 

So here is my issue. I have a few usb dacs to play with. I thought my onboard soundcard was a Realtek so I would do the little usb output trick but now I don't think I can because my sound card is actually an IDT. There's very little mentions of this company on this thread and the advice found was to just get a ext usb sound card so I can output to an optical dac. Is that my only option? There's no software middlemen I can use? Trying to keep my chain short since I have limited desk space. Any suggestions would be great help.


----------



## chicolom

mreleventy said:


> I've* left the PC gaming scene* quite a few years back when I decided to give up the constant upgrading cycles and just bought an xbox 360. This Christmas,* I got a laptop that plays a decent amount of games* at a decent quality and performance. *Tie that in with the steam sale and now I'm loaded with games for pretty cheap*. So far I've only been amping the HP jack so I can use my dt880/600s (Not ideal).
> 
> So here is my issue. I have a few usb dacs to play with. I thought my onboard soundcard was a Realtek so I would do the little usb output trick but now I don't think I can because my sound card is actually an IDT. There's very little mentions of this company on this thread and the advice found was to just get a ext usb sound card so I can output to an optical dac. Is that my only option? There's no software middlemen I can use? Trying to keep my chain short since I have limited desk space. Any suggestions would be great help.


 
  
  
 So...you mean you've left the _desktop_ PC gaming scene. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I'm not sure about middleware software (apart from the free Razer surround one), but for external soundcards with surround I think your options are the Xonar U3 or the Sound Blaster Omni.


----------



## SaLX

Had too Google this... IDT High Definition Audio CODEC. Used in Gateway PC's etc. Never heard of it. Seems to do 5.1 but if you're into games then just get a Xonar U3 (Dolby headphone) > your amp.
  
 *** chico had same idea ***


----------



## genclaymore

mreleventy said:


> I've left the PC gaming scene quite a few years back when I decided to give up the constant upgrading cycles and just bought an xbox 360. This Christmas, I got a laptop that plays a decent amount of games at a decent quality and performance. Tie that in with the steam sale and now I'm loaded with games for pretty cheap. So far I've only been amping the HP jack so I can use my dt880/600s (Not ideal).
> 
> So here is my issue. I have a few usb dacs to play with. I thought my onboard soundcard was a Realtek so I would do the little usb output trick but now I don't think I can because my sound card is actually an IDT. There's very little mentions of this company on this thread and the advice found was to just get a ext usb sound card so I can output to an optical dac. Is that my only option? There's no software middlemen I can use? Trying to keep my chain short since I have limited desk space. Any suggestions would be great help.


 
  
 I use a Audio-GD NFB15.32 with my DT880 premium 600's work really well with them, it's a External dac amp tho you might not wanna pay $239 for it. You could get a dac like a modi or a HRT Music streamer 2 and use it with a Matrix  M-Stage amp if you can find the amp used or cheap enough or a schiit vali. 
  
 Also Razer surround software works with external dac amp's I have once tried it and it did all right.


----------



## chicolom

salx said:


> Had too Google this... IDT High Definition Audio CODEC. Used in Gateway PC's etc. Never heard of it.


 
  
 My laptop has "IDT High Definition Audio". 
  
 It's......not great.  My Sansa Clip+ has a better HP amp.
  
  


genclaymore said:


> I use a Audio-GD NFB15.32 with my DT880 premium 600's work really well with them, it's a External dac amp tho you might not wanna pay $239 for it. You could get a dac like a modi or a HRT Music streamer 2 and use it with a Matrix  M-Stage amp if you can find the amp used or cheap enough.
> 
> Also Razer surround software works with external dac amp's I have once tried it and it did all right.


 
  
 If he only want's Razer's surround, that would work.  But if he wants SBX Pro or Dolby Headphone, the USB DACs won't work with it.


----------



## genclaymore

chicolom said:


> My laptop has "IDT High Definition Audio".
> 
> It's......not great.  My Sansa Clip+ has a better HP amp.
> 
> ...


 
 The NFB15.32 has optical input so he can plug either optical from the Omni or the Asus U3 into the NFB15.32 and send SBX or Dolby Headphone into the the External dac amp. With the Vali as well as the Matrix M-Stage he can just use analog from the omni and U3. I should had said External Dac amp and not USB dac.  That's how I use the DGX thru optical to send over Dolby headphone into my NFB15.32 when I gaming, When I not I hit the switch back over to USB.


----------



## chicolom

Yeah, optical is fine.  USB will be more limiting though for surround gaming.


----------



## MrEleventy

chicolom said:


> So...you mean you've left the _desktop_ PC gaming scene.
> 
> I'm not sure about middleware software (apart from the free Razer surround one), but for external soundcards with surround I think your options are the Xonar U3 or the Sound Blaster Omni.



Well, I left the PC Gaming scene only to come crawling back when I got equipment that could handle it. lol The last few comps that I've had, I only used them for coding. The wifey gave me a bigger budget so I found something with a dedicated gfx card. 



chicolom said:


> My laptop has "IDT High Definition Audio".
> 
> It's......not great.  My Sansa Clip+ has a better HP amp.
> 
> If he only want's Razer's surround, that would work.  But if he wants SBX Pro or Dolby Headphone, the USB DACs won't work with it.


Yeah, that's what I figured. Is the X-Fi Surround 5.1 Pro any good? It's a good $20-30 cheaper than the Omni. I figured if I'm only using it DSP, I'd want to go cheap. Maybe even the X-FI Go or the U3.



genclaymore said:


> I use a Audio-GD NFB15.32 with my DT880 premium 600's work really well with them, it's a External dac amp tho you might not wanna pay $239 for it. You could get a dac like a modi or a HRT Music streamer 2 and use it with a Matrix  M-Stage amp if you can find the amp used or cheap enough or a schiit vali.
> 
> Also Razer surround software works with external dac amp's I have once tried it and it did all right.


I've got dacs. I have a NFB12 on the way and own a few others at home. I wanted something more than just stereo gaming.


----------



## MrEleventy

What's the support like on Razer Surround? Is there enough adoption for it?


----------



## genclaymore

It works ok but it's not perfect, you be better off using a cheap Asus Xonar U3 or a Creative X-FI go both have optical using the  3.5 to tos-link adapter. As the Razer surround has to be config correctly to your ears and if your off then it wont sound right.


----------



## chicolom

mreleventy said:


> Is the X-Fi Surround 5.1 Pro any good? It's a good $20-30 cheaper than the Omni. I figured if I'm only using it DSP, I'd want to go cheap. Maybe even the X-FI Go or the U3.


 
  
  
 The X-Fi Surround 5.1 *Pro* uses THX for it's DSP.  Nothing wrong with it I suppose, but most anecdotal comparisons I've seen have favored SBX Pro over THX surround.
  
 It looks like there was an older X-Fi Surround 5.1 (non-"Pro") that had some kind of CMSS surround, but it's been discontinued.
  
  
 Same thing with the X-Fi Go! *Pro.  *It uses THX.  There was a non-"pro" version of it as well, but I'm not sure if it had any surround DSPs on it. 
  
  
 The U3 uses Dolby Headphone.  The Sound Blaster Omni uses SBX Pro.


----------



## NamelessPFG

IDT/SigmaTel...not a fan of those codecs, or more recent Analog Devices ones, for that matter. Drivers are quirkier and generally don't have modded packages like Realtek.
  
 The X-Fi Go! and X-Fi Surround 5.1 non-Pro variants use CMSS-3D Headphone. Because of that, I actually prefer it to the newer Pro versions with THX TruStudio Surround; since they lack Game Mode (found only on real X-Fi products with the hardware DSP), you can't get CMSS-3D Headphone at all on those, and I still think THX TSP Surround is far inferior for positioning.
  
 How do you tell apart the non-Pro variants from the Pro ones? Check the model number.
  
 X-Fi Go! - SB1100
 X-Fi Go! Pro - SB1290
 X-Fi Surround 5.1 - SB1090
 X-Fi Surround 5.1 Pro - SB1095
  
 By the way, don't get either of the X-Fi Go! products if you're looking for virtual surround in software-mixed games; they ONLY have a stereo speaker output option in the Windows sound control panel, no possibility for 5.1/7.1 downmix with CMSS-3D Headphone or THX TSP Surround. You'd be limited to using them with DS3D/OpenAL games and having to use something else like Razer Surround for newer titles.


----------



## MrEleventy

I see. So it looks like I'm going either sb1090, omni or the u3. I've heard good things about the asus sound cards, going to do some more researching. thanks a bunch guys, you've been amazingly helpful.


----------



## Acclaim

Question re: using sound card as DSP to output to DAC...
  
 Creative Settings:
 Game Mode
 CMSS-3D on
 Speakers: Headphones
  
 Windows Settings:
 Creative X-Fi as default device
 Creative X-Fi configured as 5.1
 "What U Hear" listening to device, playback output to DAC
  
 My question is, do I set the DAC speaker configuration in Windows settings to *Stereo *or *5.1*? I feel like it should be stereo as the input from the X-Fi will be coming in as stereo (albeit CMSS-3D stereo).
  
 EDIT: A second question, do I set in-game speaker configuration to stereo or 5.1? Aiiii-yaaa!


----------



## DJINFERNO806

Came across this on monoprice today.

http://www.monoprice.com/Product/?c_id=114&cp_id=11403&cs_id=1140304&p_id=9771&seq=1&format=1#largeimage

Their surround gaming headset. But more specifically what caught my eye was the DAC/amp DSP box that has Dolby headphone.

Only odd thing is it features the g6 ports instead of 3.5mm. But there are 2 of them and it has optical in as well as line in.

Anyone have experience with this.?


----------



## chicolom

djinferno806 said:


> Came across this on monoprice today.
> 
> http://www.monoprice.com/Product/?c_id=114&cp_id=11403&cs_id=1140304&p_id=9771&seq=1&format=1#largeimage
> 
> ...


 
  
 It was discussed on MLE's thread about a year ago:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-updated-1-9-2014-shure-srh1840-added/8550#post_8795667
  
 I think the verdict ended up being that the decoder box shared a lot of the design with the box from the Sharkoon X-Tatic SR, and that it had some hiss to it so it wasn't really worth bothering with.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-updated-1-9-2014-shure-srh1840-added/9360#post_8923053


----------



## Cruhx

Can anyone help me? I am going to be using the V-Moda M100s for PC gaming. I will be usin the Asus Xonar Essence STX as a sound card. Will this set-up allow for positional audio in FPS games, or is that an impossibility with this headset? I will also be using this headset for listening to music on both my PC and iPhone (that is why I don't want to settle for a run-of-the-mill "gaming" headset.) I am obviously not too educated in audio, but I have learned that external DACs will ruin positional audio. Is this true? Because before I chose a sound card I was thinking of going with the FiiO E09K and E17 combo.


----------



## chicolom

cruhx said:


> Can anyone help me? I am going to be using the V-Moda M100s for PC gaming. I will be usin the Asus Xonar Essence STX as a sound card. Will this set-up allow for positional audio in FPS games, or is that an impossibility with this headset? I will also be using this headset for listening to music on both my PC and iPhone (that is why I don't want to settle for a run-of-the-mill "gaming" headset.) I am obviously not too educated in audio, but I have learned that external DACs will ruin positional audio. Is this true? Because before I chose a sound card I was thinking of going with the FiiO E09K and E17 combo.


 
  
 The M100s will never have a huge soundstage, as they're basically closed.  Virtual surround sound will help of course, but they won't be on the same level as the best open headphones.
  
 A USB DAC will "ruin" positional audio only in that it bypasses your internal soundcard - thus bypassing any surround sound processing from it.  So you will be playing in basic stereo with a USB DAC, whereas with certain soundcards you would have virtual surround sound.


----------



## Cruhx

Would the AKG K 702 be a good open headphone choice for gaming? It's about the same price range... Would it need an amp or be good with the sound card I mentioned earlier?


----------



## NamelessPFG

acclaim said:


> Question re: using sound card as DSP to output to DAC...
> 
> Creative Settings:
> Game Mode
> ...


 
  
 You answered your own question with the bolded "Windows Settings"-related bits. If you're not feeding CMSS-3D Headphone the extra surround channels, it's just processing front left/right speakers, which is pointless.
  
 Also, CMSS-3D Headphone (or any other HRTF surround mix) is NOT stereo, despite only needing two channels. That's an important distinction Mad Lust Envy and I make.
  
 For in-game settings, I'd probably set it to 5.1/7.1 just to be sure.


----------



## roguegeek

cruhx said:


> Would the AKG K 702 be a good open headphone choice for gaming? It's about the same price range... Would it need an amp or be good with the sound card I mentioned earlier?


 
 Your question would be better served in the gaming headphone thread, but a quick answer is the K702 is amazing for competitive gaming as long as it's adequately powered. Get over to the other thread and find more specifics there.


----------



## SaLX

Alien: Isolation. This game looks scary as ****. I couldn't find out anything about the sound design or engine they are using, but here's hoping they do a good job.
  

  
  
 With commentary (same vid almost): http://youtu.be/9lkh0-jPfxs
  
 Preview: http://www.gamesradar.com/alien-isolation-why-you-need-stop-worrying-about-colonial-marines-right-now/


----------



## chicolom




----------



## Acclaim

namelesspfg said:


> You answered your own question with the bolded "Windows Settings"-related bits. If you're not feeding CMSS-3D Headphone the extra surround channels, it's just processing front left/right speakers, which is pointless.
> 
> Also, CMSS-3D Headphone (or any other HRTF surround mix) is NOT stereo, despite only needing two channels. That's an important distinction Mad Lust Envy and I make.
> 
> For in-game settings, I'd probably set it to 5.1/7.1 just to be sure.


 
 Thanks for the reply Nameless!
  
 Just a quick rundown of what I think I know, please jump in if what I say is incorrect:
  
 Starting with Windows, Creative X-Fi is configured as 5.1 and set as the default device. This 5.1 feed is processed by CMSS-3D Headphone and then output as a stereo feed under "Headphones" in the driver settings. I then have "What U Hear" set to listen and playback through the DAC.
  
 My question is, under Windows, do I configure the DAC audio (which is not the default device) as a 5.1 or stereo configuration? We have past the point of CMSS-3D processing and the signal has now entered Windows sound for the second time.
  
 The digital signal then of course enters the DAC which converts the digital signal to analog which reaches my amp and ultimately headphones.

 If I can get this down properly I will try to write-up a clear set of instructions of how to do this on Windows 8. I feel as though the initial instructions may lack a few key details.


----------



## NamelessPFG

acclaim said:


> Thanks for the reply Nameless!
> 
> Just a quick rundown of what I think I know, please jump in if what I say is incorrect:
> 
> ...


 
  
 I must've missed that part...it doesn't matter what the DAC's set to output.
  
 However, I should've also mentioned that this method seems to outright DESTROY audio quality for me...though I don't recall it sounding too bad with the ODAC, mainly the Recon3D USB and other devices.
  
 Generally speaking, I'd advise using an S/PDIF DAC instead whenever possible, and if it's an X-Fi Titanium HD instead of the "regular" Titanium models, an alternate DAC would be a waste in most cases.
  
 Whatever the case, one of these days, I'm going to have to figure out how to rewrite this entire guide from the ground up.


----------



## Acclaim

namelesspfg said:


> I must've missed that part...it doesn't matter what the DAC's set to output.
> 
> However, I should've also mentioned that this method seems to outright DESTROY audio quality for me...though I don't recall it sounding too bad with the ODAC, mainly the Recon3D USB and other devices.
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah, fair. That's what I was thinking. No matter what it's set to it's still receiving a CMSS-3D post-processed channel in stereo.
  
 My X-Fi is a relic XtremeMusic on PCI! If I end up hooking it up to the DAC it'll hafta be through coaxial S/PDIF. Will this bottleneck my system? In the next few weeks (waiting on shipping!) I'll be running DAC -RCA-> Bottleneck Crack w/ Speedball -1/4"TRS-> HD650
  
 Maybe I should upgrade to a X-Fi TiHD for an optical output that would support CMSS-3D. (I have an optical out from my mobo already, but again it would rely upon the DAC bypass method for DSP which isn't perfect)
  
 Sorry for all of the questions man, venturing into a new world!
  
*EDIT: Found a relevant reply of yours from a while ago:*
  

 Quote:


namelesspfg said:


> The reason why some of us would do that is that we're using the sound card's DSP, particularly for gaming effects.
> 
> DACs are obviously not DSPs...or ADCs or any of the other functions a sound card might have, for that matter.
> 
> However, while I can understand buying a cheap sound card just for the DSP effects, buying something near top-of-the-line just to ignore their* improved analog outputs* (which is the main thing they have over lower-end cards) *would be a waste of money.*



  
  
 What about for improved digital outputs? The XtremeMusic is marketed at being able to digitally output 24-bit/192kHz but in the driver settings I only see 96kHz under "Digital Output (PCM) Sampling Rate Settings." 
 I'd hate to limit a ~$1000 rig by skipping out on a ~$100 soundcard w/ digital optical output, CMSS-3D (or binaural audio equivalent) and 24-bit/192kHz!


----------



## chicolom

acclaim said:


> What about for improved digital outputs? The XtremeMusic is marketed at being able to digitally output 24-bit/*192kHz* but in the driver settings I only see 96kHz under "Digital Output (PCM) Sampling Rate Settings."
> I'd hate to limit a ~$1000 rig by skipping out on a ~$100 soundcard w/ digital optical output, CMSS-3D (or binaural audio equivalent) and 24-bit/192kHz!


 
  
 Do you have ANY content greater than 48khz, or even 44.1khz??
  
 If you're not sure, then you most likely don't.  Have you bought a lot of music from hdtracks.com?


----------



## Acclaim

chicolom said:


> Do you have ANY content greater than 48khz, or even 44.1khz??
> 
> If you're not sure, then you most likely don't.  Have you bought a lot of music from hdtracks.com?


 
 Haha, that's a fair question. NO! ...I guess that's a little bit of OCD kicking in, ya?
  
 I was more concerned about the coaxial output vs. optical (and perhaps a bit of future-proofing if I were to get into 24-bit).


----------



## TwelveTrains

I made a new thread about this, but didn't get many bites, so I thought I might post it here as well, because everyone on this thread seems quite smart.
  
  
 I have been using the Creative X-Fi Titanium (Non-HD) for some time now. I do a lot of PC gaming, but sometimes it is difficult for me to determine whether or not CMSS-3D is making a difference in certain FPS titles I play...
  
 1. Team Fortress 2 
  
 I used to play this game a lot, turning CMSS-3D didn't seem to change much audio wise. This is before I figured out that Creative Alchemy is needed to restore anything running off the Source 2 engine. I still can't figure out how to get Alchemy working with this particular title, as I've read conflicting instructions on how to do so.
  
  
 2. Killing Floor
  
 I play this game more than any other game. It runs off the Unreal Engine 2, so I thought my X-Fi would benefit it greatly. However, this game is a little rough around the edges in certain ways. The most glaring issue is that when enabling sound hardware acceleration in the game's .ini or in the in-game menu under audio system driver a BSOD occurs every time. This is well documented amongst the Tripwire (development company) and Creative forums. So, I use the lesser quality software accelerated support, which CMSS-3D seems to benefit to a considerable amount. However, I'm frustrated I can't take advantage of my card in the first way. And I also cannot figure out whether Alchemy would make things better yet. I assumed because it uses OpenAL natively, it wouldn't need Alchemy; but this page seems to suggest that Creative Alchemy benefits Unreal Tournament 2003, 2004, and 3. Which I assumed wouldn't need Alchemy because they could they used OpenAL natively? And since Killing Floor is a mod of that game, this could change. And since I'm using software accelerated support maybe that wouldn't matter anyway? I found one person in a Tripwire forum who claimed Alchemy benefited this game, but that the buffers, duration, and maximum voice count settings in Alchemy caused wild fluctuations in game performance and he/she could never tweak it right.
  
  
 3. Chivalry: Medieval Warfare
  
 This one I've been getting into recently. This is game is even more rough around the edges than Killing Floor so I knew I would have questions about it. I would think that it would be once again natively supported, because it uses Unreal Engine 3, but it does not give me the same "exact coordinates in space" feel that the CMSS-3D in Killing Floor gives me. I haven't found any instructions on how to get Alchemy working with this game so I haven't touched it yet. But I thought I wouldn't need Alchemy for an OpenAL game!?!??!
  
  
 4. Battlefield 3
  
 Turned on CMSS-3D for this game and HOLY SMOKES. I can hear everything in every 3D place. Too bad I NEVER play this game anymore.
  
  
  
 So today I started doubting whether having a Creative card was worth it. I could just get a Xonar card and flip on Dolby Headphone. Sure I'd be getting average surround sound, but I wouldn't have to worry so much about getting things working perfectly with legacy titles. It is my understanding that Alchemy is rarely used for newer titles because most audio in new games is software-accelerated.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Coaxial vs. optical/Toslink...I wouldn't expect much of a difference in practice, though some people are known to prefer coaxial due to supposedly lower jitter in the signal.
  
 I'm not too concerned about jitter, though. That's going into extreme audiophile territory.
  
 Also, you'd be hard-pressed to find 96 KHz content, let alone 192 KHz content. Even then, some say that 192 KHz actually degrades sound quality for whatever reason, and sample rates above 48 KHz aren't practical when the Nyquist limit bringing the effective audible range down to 24 KHz is well beyond the average person's hearing range. (I can't hear beyond about 14 KHz myself...)
  
 EDIT: Well, someone posted while I was composing this...
  
 Source-engine games should be fine with having dsound.dll and dsound.ini in the root of their directories and setting snd_legacy_surround 1 in the console to enable DirectSound3D, which then gets wrapped into OpenAL via ALchemy. Of course, there's a chance that you'll prefer the software 5.1/7.1 mix as the base for CMSS-3D Headphone to work with instead.
  
 Strangely enough, Killing Floor and other UnrealEngine2 titles DON'T give me BSoDs with native OpenAL. They just work. How much of this is due to using the X-Fi Prelude, Forte and Titanium HD with their different driver packages, I don't know, but hardware OpenAL works fine in all cases.
  
 Setting it to software OpenAL likely makes it use the "Generic Software" OpenAL device, which would suck. Better to try out OpenAL Soft or Rapture3D User Edition, if you can't utilize the X-Fi's hardware mode.
  
 I suppose putting the ALchemy dsound.dll and dsound.ini for OpenAL-native games won't hurt anything, but it shouldn't need them since it's meant to wrap DirectSound3D calls into OpenAL, and this would be tantamount to dropping a 3dfx Glide-to-OpenGL wrapper in a game directory that has no Glide renderer.
  
 UnrealEngine3 is a fuzzy case; only the very earliest UE3 games like UT3, Bioshock, Mirror's Edge and Mass Effect 1 have native OpenAL. UE3.5 moved to XAudio2, which really irritates me since a lot of the later games like Mass Effect 2 and Borderlands went all software-mixed as a consequence.
  
 ALchemy is indeed rarely used in newer titles because it's for DirectSound3D specifically. As mentioned earlier, even hardware-accelerated titles that use OpenAL to do it don't need it.


----------



## chicolom

So I thought I'd install Bioshock just to test the sound on SBX Pro vs Dolby Heapdhone, but apparently Bioshock's audio is a PITA to get working correctly and prevents the game from even launching.
 http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1133842
  
 It will only launch with "-nosound", so I scrolled down to this section and tried adding the game to Creative Alchemy list but it still won't launch. 
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



[size=small]D. Sound Issues: Creative, Creative Soundblaster, Creative X-Fi 3rd party cards.[/size]

 You will know if you have a Creative card because you installed it yourself, you can see it on the back of your PC or you identified it in the dxdiag under Sound Devices. The Description would be: Creative Audio Output, or Creative "something" will be listed.

 1. Ensure you have OpenAL or Alchemy installed.
 2. Either search for the program or go to Start > Control Panel > Uninstall Programs. If it is not listed there, you do not have the program installed.
 3. OpenAL is an emulator. Creative cards do not nativel support BioShock FMOD sound.
 4. Go to Creative's Website and download OpenAL. Follow their directions to get it up and running. Make sure you open "OpenAL" select bioshock and then run it.
 5. If you have any issues with OpenAL check their website or search the internet for possible solutions. I am unfamiliar with the program but have helped a fellow steam user get that program to allow him to play BioShock.

 [size=small]D-2. Additional info on OpenAL\Alchemy and X-Fi cards. (From a thread by: wanderofys)[/size]

 If you have a Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio card (or any X-Fi card), you need to download and install Alchemy. Open Alchemy, choose "add", then a box will open. Choose "use game path", then put the path to the file that contains all your Bioshock files into it (for me, I had to put it in steamapps\common\bioshock\builds\release). Once you do that, just choose Bioshock in Alchemy, and click the right arrow that you'll see in the middle of the program. Tada! Load Bioshock, it will work perfectly.

 There is one major thing you need to make sure you do before you try this. If you're having problems with Bioshock, odds are good you have tried some other fixes for the game, such as the default.ini fix. You need to make sure you UNDO THESE FIXES. If you use Alchemy and do what I said, the game will not freeze on startup without the default.ini fix, AND your sound will work. So if you changed anything, make sure you change it back, including running it in windows xp mode. You don't need to anymore. Also, if you forget what you changed in default.ini, just verify the integrity of your game cache with Steam and it will automatically fix your default.ini file.


  
 This is why I _love _PC gaming.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Bioshock streams audio data with FMOD, that OpenAL thingie with AlAudio Device does and will not work if you set it up in the ini.
 In the Sound Blaster Z-Thread DJ Inferno and me talked a bit about the config, where you need to change variables in the Bioshock.ini under Appdata.
  
 The real problem with Bioshiock is that Z cards OpenAL renderer has MacroFX ON by default so the result pales in comparison with a X-Fi.


----------



## chicolom

fegefeuer said:


> Bioshock streams audio data with FMOD, that OpenAL thingie with AlAudio Device does and will not work if you set it up in the ini.
> In the Sound Blaster Z-Thread DJ Inferno and me talked a bit about the config, where you need to change variables in the Bioshock.ini under Appdata.
> 
> The real problem with Bioshiock is that Z cards OpenAL renderer has MacroFX ON by default so the result pales in comparison with a X-Fi.


 
  
 Thanks. 
  
 I was hoping I wouldn't need to mess with this stuff, modding files for each individual game.  I was hoping it would just be setting the SB Z control panel to SBX = ON, Output = Headphones, and set to 5.1 in windows and 5.1 in the game and forget about it.  But I guess that's not the case. 
  
 Mirror's edge sounds alright, but Valve games (Half Life 2 / Portal) sound off - sounds are too close and are panning too hard left-to-right.  Apparently when you launch valve games it auto-disables SBX Pro and you have to minimize the game, re-enable SBX Pro, and renter the game.  Now it sounds _much_ better.  Y U NO WORK LOGICALLY?
  
 Dolby Headphone may not be as accurate, but it's a hell of a lot easy to get working.


----------



## Acclaim

Re: Connecting X-Fi XtremeMusic to DAC through digital coaxial via the FlexiJack output
  
 Will something like this work?
  
 http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102693&cp=2032058.2032231.2032280&pg=19&parentPage=family
 http://www.ramelectronics.net/product.aspx?zpid=3164
  
 Or a 3.5mm to TOSLINK?
  
 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000V0ETB0?tag=hsecrets-20&link_code=as2&creativeASIN=B000V0ETB0%20&creative=374929&camp=211189
  
 My only concern is that I'll be introducing signal attenuation.


----------



## TwelveTrains

> setting snd_legacy_surround 1 in the console to enable DirectSound3D,


 
  This! This was the missing piece to the puzzle. The sound in Team Fortress 2 is quite astounding now. Pinpoitedly accurate, and doesn't "bleed" all around me. At first I was even confused where the root TF2 directory was... as there is the hl2.exe under Team Fortress 2's common folder in steamapps, but also a hl2.exe under Team Fortress 2's [steam user name] folder in steamapps.


----------



## Fegefeuer

chicolom said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I was hoping I wouldn't need to mess with this stuff, modding files for each individual game.  I was hoping it would just be setting the SB Z control panel to SBX = ON, Output = Headphones, and set to 5.1 in windows and 5.1 in the game and forget about it.  But I guess that's not the case.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Did you check your OpenAL Config with ALCapsViewer?
  
 You need to list the name of your soundcard/device in the Mirror's Edge Config so that the game uses OpenAL properly. 
  
 The auto-uncheck of SBX is normal for OpenAL games since those games use proper HRTF instead of a room HRTF. It's supposed to be that way.


----------



## TwelveTrains

namelesspfg said:


> Strangely enough, Killing Floor and other UnrealEngine2 titles DON'T give me BSoDs with native OpenAL. They just work. How much of this is due to using the X-Fi Prelude, Forte and Titanium HD with their different driver packages, I don't know, but hardware OpenAL works fine in all cases.
> 
> Setting it to software OpenAL likely makes it use the "Generic Software" OpenAL device, which would suck. Better to try out OpenAL Soft or Rapture3D User Edition, if you can't utilize the X-Fi's hardware mode.


 
  
 Ah yes, I mispoke about this. The BSOD setting is by not enabling "the system intalled OpenAL driver" in-game.
  
 Or by typing UseDefaultDriver=False in the game's .ini file.
  
  
 Earlier I had referred to this as software OpenAL, but I don't really know what it is.


----------



## chicolom

fegefeuer said:


> Did you check your OpenAL Config with ALCapsViewer?
> 
> You need to list the name of your soundcard/device in the Mirror's Edge Config so that the game uses OpenAL properly.
> 
> The auto-uncheck of SBX is normal for OpenAL games since those games use proper HRTF instead of a room HRTF. It's supposed to be that way.


 
  
  
 Of course not!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Remember, I haven't done _any _PC gaming in 13 years.  Last time I did was in 2001, with Halo (1): Combat Evolved, Max Payne 1, Oni, etc.  Before that it was....Mechwarrior 2 & Commander Keen.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'll look into that ALCapsViewer thing tomorrow.  Should that program already be installed or do I go grab it off the internetz?  I still don't understand what Alchemy is.
  
 Are you saying that if SBX Pro gets auto-unchecked, I should leave it that way (OFF)?  Because it sounded much better with it ON in Half-Life 2 / Portal.  With it OFF, some things sounded inside my head and stereo like.


----------



## Fegefeuer

you need to download AlCapsViewer. 
  
 HL2 and other Source Games need more tweaking in order to enjoy the legacy audio rendering, but they are all practically the same in configuration.
  
 Check http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2608992
  
 This is the latest alchemy known to mankind: http://www.head-fi.org/t/623079/creative-sound-blaster-new-series-z-zx-zxr/1575#post_10113977


----------



## chicolom

OK. 
  
 After all the configuring/tweaking/etc. is done, I should still be playing with SBX Pro turned ON right?


----------



## Fegefeuer

chicolom said:


> OK.
> 
> After all the configuring/tweaking/etc. is done, I should still be playing with SBX Pro turned ON right?


 
  
 It automatically turns off during games that use OpenAL/Alchemy Wrapper. It will turn back on after you exit those games.


----------



## chicolom

All I'm saying is that minimizing the game, turning SBX Pro back ON, and then reentering the game sounded noticeably better than doing nothing.

Maybe those tweaks will make it leapfrog SBX Pro though...


----------



## SoundForeigner

Hello,
  
 First of all, great guide!  I am new to all this stuff and I decided to build my first computer.
  
 I understand you point in the direction of Mad Lust Envy's guide for headphone advice, but since you focus more on the PC side of things, would you be willing to recommend some sound cards at least?
  
 You said you recommend sound cards over something like the MixAmp Pro because "a sound card will provide more features and better audio quality at less cost."
  
 My goal is to stay around the $100 - $200 range for a sound card if I can, but if you absolutely recommend paying more...I _might_ consider it.
  
 The only things I would really care about for my headphone experience would be: positional audio (for the Quake games mainly), great overall sound for non-competitive games, and something that makes House music sound awesome.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Fegefeuer




----------



## SoundForeigner

Ahhh cool.  I'm going to get an Nvidia GPU though.
  
 My questions from my earlier post still remain.
  
 Thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## Fegefeuer

soundforeigner said:


> Ahhh cool.  I'm going to get an Nvidia GPU though.
> 
> My questions from my earlier post still remain.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion!


 
  
 Sorry SoundForeigner, I posted this blindly into this thread, I didn't read your post. 
  
 An ideal combo would be an external dac/amp with the cheapest soundcard that has the full features of its line. Like Soundblaster Z with its SBX and Software OpenAL or X-Fi Titanium (bulk) with its CMSS-3D and hardware acceleration with older games or any other OpenAL game. With a good DAC/AMP you avoid impedance mismatch and drive your headphones better. It's the most expensive setup though. I am not a fan of those higher end cards due to their output impedance but if you only want a soundcard then think about a Soundblaster ZxR - or a Titanium HD with a little external amp like the Objective O2 since the Titanium HD can output CMSS-3D perfectly via rca out. That would be cheaper compared to good DAC/AMP+soundcard at least.
  
 What headphones are you using and what is your overall budget?


----------



## SoundForeigner

fegefeuer said:


>


 

 Oh, no worries Fegefeuer...it's all good!
  
 Thanks for the suggestions!  As for my budget...it is hard to say as I don't know exactly what to look for.  Roughly I guess would be $100 - $200 for a sound card and around $300 for a headset/phones.  I'm not sure about an external DAC/AMP.
  
 I am willing to sacrifice the headset benefit of a microphone if a pair of headphones is worth it (I could settle with a clip-on mic. or something...I would rarely use it anyways).
  
 Like my username suggests, audiophile stuff is foreign to me...but here is what I've looked into so far (and feel free to share your opinions as I try to approach things objectively):
  
 Sennheiser PC 363D: http://en-us.sennheiser.com/gaming-headset-pc-363d
  
 Shure SRH840: http://www.shure.com/americas/products/earphones-headphones/headphones/srh840-professional-monitoring-headphones
  
 Audio-Technica ATH-ADG1: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/headphones/97d660ada89c32c8/index.html
  
 Audio-Technica ATH-AG1: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/headphones/568b166395264eb0/index.html
  
 Astro A40 2013 edition: http://www.astrogaming.com/a40-audio-system/A40-AUDIO-SYSTEM-ASTRO.html
  
 Razer Tiamat 7.1 ("True" surround sound vs virtual surround sound.  I have been told this is a gimmick...but I am not sure myself): http://www.razerzone.com/tiamat/en
  
 Razer Adaro DJ: http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-audio/razer-adaro-dj
  
 Razer Adaro Stereos: http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-audio/razer-adaro-stereos
  
 Turtle Beach Ear Force XP SEVEN: http://www.turtlebeach.com/product-detail/xbox-headsets/ear-force-xp-seven/340
  
 Mad Lust Envy's guide.
  
 Am I going in the right direction or should I be steered somewhere else?


----------



## Murder Mike

soundforeigner said:


> Am I going in the right direction or should I be steered somewhere else?


 
  
 I would second going the soundcard + amp route as Fegefeuer suggested. You can pick up a nice pair of cans with your remaining funds and use a clip-on or desktop mic.


----------



## PurpleAngel

soundforeigner said:


> Oh, no worries Fegefeuer...it's all good!
> Thanks for the suggestions!  As for my budget...it is hard to say as I don't know exactly what to look for.  Roughly I guess would be $100 - $200 for a sound card and around $300 for a headset/phones.  I'm not sure about an external DAC/AMP.
> I am willing to sacrifice the headset benefit of a microphone if a pair of headphones is worth it (I could settle with a clip-on mic. or something...I would rarely use it anyways).
> Like my username suggests, audiophile stuff is foreign to me...but here is what I've looked into so far (and feel free to share your opinions as I try to approach things objectively):
> ...


 
 For a budget combo.
  
 Sennheiser HD558 headphones, new $129, used $110.
 Or B&H has some used AKG K612 Pro for $145.
 You can use any add-on mic you like.
  
 Creative Labs Sound Blaster Z sound card, $60-$90.
  
 So for around $250 (or less) you would have a fairly decent setup for gaming music and movies.
  
 Later on you can buy a $300 external DAC/Amp (if you choose) and plug it into the Z and still be able to use the headphone surround sound features.


----------



## genclaymore

There's a DT990 pro-250 for $159 on ebay new.


----------



## Cruhx

I have a few questions that I need clearing up, sorry if they're kind of random.

 Are there any DACs that provide 3D processing as well as a soundcard could?

 If I were to use a lower impedance headphone, (V-Moda M-100 w/ boom mic and XL Earpads) what type of audio setup would be best in providing both positional audio for competitive gaming as well as good sound for music?
  
 Thanks!
  
 Creative Sound Blaster Z 70 (5.1)
  
 Asus Xonar DX (7.1) 
  
 Which would be a better sound card for positional audio?


----------



## NamelessPFG

cruhx said:


> I have a few questions that I need clearing up, sorry if they're kind of random.
> 
> Are there any DACs that provide 3D processing as well as a soundcard could?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Standalone DACs have NO gaming audio features whatsoever, or any other sort of DSP effect for that matter. They just convert a signal from digital to analog; that's it. That's all they're supposed to do.
  
 A sound card has a built-in DAC, alongside an ADC for line-in and mic inputs, and on older cards, a hardware DSP for audio processing (which most newer cards handle entirely through their driver/software package), most prominently for gaming audio in a time when CPUs were generally 500 MHz and slower.
  
 USB DACs are really just USB sound cards that only have outputs, and since they cater to audiophiles who want faithful music reproduction, they have ZERO gaming features whatsoever. That's why I DON'T recommend getting one with only USB input if you plan on gaming, since a DAC with S/PDIF input can be paired to a cheap sound card that can serve as your gaming DSP.
  
 (...Note to self: when rewriting the guide, put an explanation along those lines in it so I don't have to explain what a DAC is every single time.)
  
 The Sound Blaster Z and Xonar DX both have a great reputation, but I'd still personally opt for an X-Fi Titanium due to my general preference for CMSS-3D Headphone when it comes to pinpoint positioning. Whether you share that preference over SBX Pro Surround and Dolby Headphone respectively is another matter, one you'll have to decide for yourself.


----------



## PurpleAngel

cruhx said:


> I have a few questions that I need clearing up, sorry if they're kind of random.
> Are there any DACs that provide 3D processing as well as a sound card could?
> If I were to use a lower impedance headphone, (V-Moda M-100 w/ boom mic and XL Earpads) what type of audio setup would be best in providing both positional audio for competitive gaming as well as good sound for music?
> Thanks!
> ...


 
 An external DAC does not come with any surround sound (3D processing) features, but an external sound card does.
 Personally I think it's better to get an internal sound.card (SB-Z).


----------



## roguegeek

cruhx said:


> If I were to use a lower impedance headphone, (V-Moda M-100 w/ boom mic and XL Earpads) what type of audio setup would be best in providing both positional audio for competitive gaming as well as good sound for music?


 
 M100? What happened with the Q701 you mentioned in the other thread? It's going to be a MUCH better performer for gaming. Stay away from the M100.
  
 Basically, you're going to want to grab a card that is going to do your surround sound processing. I'm also recommending the X-Fi Titanium HD for that because I prefer CMSS-3D over others such as Dolby Headphone. Then, depending on the headphones you choose, you may need to throw an external amp in between your card and cans. If you go with the Q701, an amp is very much recommended. Something as simple as a Magni or E09K will work fine.
  
 My current gaming setup is as follows:  AKG K702 AE  >  Schiit Magni  >  X-Fi Titanium HD  >  motherboard
  
 It's absolutely amazing for competitive gaming.


----------



## Cruhx

Thank you everyone for your responses. I don't have unlimited money so I want to get the M100 for all-around use including gaming as well as music both on my computer and my phone. I'm thinking I'll get the Titanium X-Fi HD and M100 to start. Eventually when I get more money ill but the Q701 an Schiit Magni specifically for gaming, and use the M100 for music.


----------



## roguegeek

cruhx said:


> Thank you everyone for your responses. I don't have unlimited money so I want to get the M100 for all-around use including gaming as well as music both on my computer and my phone. I'm thinking I'll get the Titanium X-Fi HD and M100 to start. Eventually when I get more money ill but the Q701 an Schiit Magni specifically for gaming, and use the M100 for music.




The M100 is still a $300 headphone and it's not good for gaming. The Q701 is $200 and the Magni or E09K is $100 and you'll have a setup that will blow the M100 away. It's your money, but if you really are getting something for competitive gaming, I think you're making a bad decision.


----------



## Evshrug

^ have you heard the M-100? It's a good headphone that ought not be underestimated. That said...
I prefer the Q701 for gaming AND music, personally. And prefer comfort. The M-100 comes into it's own for portability, durability, and for being a decent closed option, but at home I choose an AKG.


----------



## roguegeek

evshrug said:


> ^ have you heard the M-100? It's a good headphone that ought not be underestimated. That said...
> I prefer the Q701 for gaming AND music, personally. And prefer comfort. The M-100 comes into it's own for portability, durability, and for being a decent closed option, but at home I choose an AKG.


 
 Have you heard it? It's a closed bass head can, has an extremely tiny soundstage, and there's almost no separation. I can't think anyone who has would recommend it for competitive gaming. Again, if that is really his focus, there are many other routes to take that will deliver a better experience.


----------



## Evshrug

Own one, for almost a year now, yeah I've heard it. I would first say get a Q701 and not worry about using earbuds while on-the-go and outside the home, but if a closed headphone is needed the M-100 is a pretty good closed portable headphone. I'm not saying it's the best, I'm just saying it's a decent closed headphone and easily beats using stereo desktop speakers, works with virtual surround processing.

I haven't tried XL pads.


----------



## roguegeek

evshrug said:


> Own one, for almost a year now, yeah I've heard it. I would first say get a Q701 and not worry about using earbuds while on-the-go and outside the home, but if a closed headphone is needed the M-100 is a pretty good closed portable headphone. I'm not saying it's the best, I'm just saying it's a decent closed headphone and easily beats using stereo desktop speakers, works with virtual surround processing.
> 
> I haven't tried XL pads.



I think you and I are on the same page. I like the M100. I'm just saying there are better options out there for competitive gaming. One is the Q701. If he has to go closed, I would also recommend the SRH940 over the M100.


----------



## MrEleventy

roguegeek said:


> The M100 is still a $300 headphone and it's not good for gaming. The Q701 is $200 and the Magni or E09K is $100 and you'll have a setup that will blow the M100 away. It's your money, but if you really are getting something for competitive gaming, I think you're making a bad decision.


I think you're ignoring the fact that musically, the M100 is probably what he's looking for and he's probably leaning toward music first then gaming. So he's thinking great music, ok gaming vs what Q701 might be for him, terrible music great gaming. So I wouldn't call it a bad decision.


----------



## Cruhx

That's exactly the problem that I'm having in deciding; I want about 50% gaming, 50% music. The gaming route would be the q701 and Schiit Magni, the music route would be the M100. If I get one I won't be able to get the other one for a few months (I'm 17). The M100 is exactly what I want for music, but as I'm building my gaming PC next week, I think I might get the q701 first. Does the V-Moda Boompro mic work with the q701? Or should I invest in a Blue mic if I buy it?


----------



## Murder Mike

cruhx said:


> That's exactly the problem that I'm having in deciding; I want about 50% gaming, 50% music. The gaming route would be the q701 and Schiit Magni, the music route would be the M100. If I get one I won't be able to get the other one for a few months (I'm 17). The M100 is exactly what I want for music, but as I'm building my gaming PC next week, I think I might get the q701 first. Does the V-Moda Boompro mic work with the q701? Or should I invest in a Blue mic if I buy it?


 
  
 I would go with the Q701 and Magni first and see how you like it. You don't need a Blue Yeti mic or anything like that. A simple clip-on like the Neewer in MLE's thread will perform well. If you wanted something nicer, there's the Antlion mod mic and the Samson Go Mic (Desktop) that I've heard good things about.


----------



## roguegeek

mreleventy said:


> I think you're ignoring the fact that musically, the M100 is probably what he's looking for and he's probably leaning toward music first then gaming. So he's thinking great music, ok gaming vs what Q701 might be for him, terrible music great gaming. So I wouldn't call it a bad decision.


 
 To call the Q701 just terrible for music seems irresponsible to me. I'm not ignoring it and I'm still recommending the Q701.


----------



## roguegeek

cruhx said:


> That's exactly the problem that I'm having in deciding; I want about 50% gaming, 50% music. The gaming route would be the q701 and Schiit Magni, the music route would be the M100. If I get one I won't be able to get the other one for a few months (I'm 17). The M100 is exactly what I want for music, but as I'm building my gaming PC next week, I think I might get the q701 first. Does the V-Moda Boompro mic work with the q701? Or should I invest in a Blue mic if I buy it?


 
 I think the all-around route is the Q701 and Magni. Unless you are in absolute need for issolation and colored bassed, the Q701 and Magni is a great place to start.


----------



## MrEleventy

roguegeek said:


> To call the Q701 just terrible for music seems irresponsible to me. I'm not ignoring it and I'm still recommending the Q701.


You took what I said out of context, I wasn't calling the Q701 terrible musically as I haven't heard it for myself. What I did say was "Q701 might *be for him*, terrible music great gaming.". The fact that he decided on a M-100 at first means that he's looking for something bassy which I don't believe the Q701 are.


----------



## roguegeek

mreleventy said:


> You took what I said out of context, I wasn't calling the Q701 terrible musically as I haven't heard it for myself. What I did say was "Q701 might *be for him*, terrible music great gaming.". The fact that he decided on a M-100 at first means that he's looking for something bassy which I don't believe the Q701 are.


 
 Gotcha. Yeah, that's my misunderstanding and I apologize. I think I still lean towards the Q701 in this instance.


----------



## chicolom

If you want ONE headphone that can be used for portable music (so closed with good isolation) and gaming, you should get one that has as much soundstage as possible and _without _overpowering bass.  I can't speak for the M100 as I haven't heard it, but I'm not sure it fulfills all those requirements -and it's $300.


----------



## MrEleventy

roguegeek said:


> Gotcha. Yeah, that's my misunderstanding and I apologize. I think I still lean towards the Q701 in this instance.


It's all good. 

I probably would also if I was in his situation, I got out of the basshead phase after my first HP coming back to head-fi. Went from the M80s to the dt880s and never looked back.  I would still love to try the q701s one day but not in a hurry. Maybe at a meet or something. Or someone sells me a pair cheap. 

E: Since Razer Surround was free, I gave it a try on my system with an O2 amp. I find it alright. Adequate but I think I would be disappointed if I had paid money for it. Went searching on eBay and found a X-Fi Surround 5.1 used for cheap. Going to try that and if all else failed, there's the SB Omni.


----------



## Evshrug

mreleventy said:


> I think you're ignoring the fact that musically, the M100 is probably what he's looking for and he's probably leaning toward music first then gaming. So he's thinking great music, ok gaming vs what Q701 might be for him, terrible music great gaming. So I wouldn't call it a bad decision.



Neither headphone would be "terrible" for either purpose... these are both high-quality mid-Fi headphones that do everything well and some things amazingly. IMO, What it comes down to is this: if you need portable, closed, durable headphones, the M-100 is a strong pick and the better suited of the two, but if what is needed is long-term comfort, instrument separation, and balanced-but-lively headphones and you'll be too busy to listen to music while out-and-about anyway, then the Q701 would suit better.



chicolom said:


> If you want ONE headphone that can be used for portable music (so closed with good isolation) and gaming, you should get one that has as much soundstage as possible and _without_ overpowering bass.  I can't speak for the M100 as I haven't heard it, but I'm not sure it fulfills all those requirements -and it's $300.



The. M-100 handles mids better than the HE-400, and it has colored bass but I don't find it overpowering. I haven't compared it to a CAL (Creative's Aurvana Live, regarded as having one of the largest soundstages for a closed headphone, at an affordable price) or other Fostex driver headphone, but it works well with virtual surround and easily beats stereo speakers for tactical information.
YMMV of course, and I don't weigh the price very much since both these headphones will last a long time and I spent less than $300 to get them.


----------



## chicolom

evshrug said:


> I haven't compared it to a CAL (*Creative's Aurvana Live, regarded as having one of the largest soundstages for a closed headphone*, at an affordable price) or other Fostex driver headphone, but it works well with virtual surround and easily beats stereo speakers for tactical information.


 
  
  
 Personally I don't find the CAL to have _that_ large of a soundstage.  More medium sized or less.  Largest for a _closed headphone under $100 _probably, but not on par with things like Denon Dx000, Fostex, Beyer, etc.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Yeah all closed headphones struggle in this regard. From my experience the best ones I encountered are the D7K, TH-900 and the T5P.


----------



## Evshrug

chicolom said:


> Personally I don't find the CAL to have _that_ large of a soundstage.  More medium sized or less.  Largest for a _closed headphone under $100_ probably, but not on par with things like Denon Dx000, Fostex, Beyer, etc.



Well the CAL supposedly is a rebadged Denon D1000, using the same Fostex drivers, right?


----------



## Murder Mike

evshrug said:


> Well the CAL supposedly is a rebadged Denon D1000, using the same Fostex drivers, right?


 
 I've heard it was the D1001. It does use the bio-cellulose drivers though.


----------



## chicolom

evshrug said:


> Well the CAL supposedly is a rebadged Denon D1000, using the same Fostex drivers, right?


I meant the D2000 and up. I've heard the CAL right next to the D2000 and the latter had a bigger soundstage.


----------



## Belial88

I'm a bit confused on what this guide is trying to say. Is it telling me to download something?
  
 I have a Z87X-UD3H ALC898 with a DRV632 600 ohm headphone amp. As I understand, ALC898 is really good, and I have an amp onboard already, so I don't need a sound card because my sound is already super good. I don't really see any mention in the guide about this stuff.


----------



## SaLX

Belial.. tbh  most of us here on Head-Fi will find it difficult to help out with motherboard audio. We all look down on it for good reason (and we are not snobs no way): namely it's _motherboard audio_. To kick off, a motherboard that claims it can amp a 600 ohm headphone is quite frankly laughable - no offence. it's not going to happen.
  
 Also the DAC's used are difficult to pin down quality wise.. so many variations....... maybe one day they will be really good, but not now. I've tested out a great set of headphones on one the best of mobos  (SupremeFX)... and no... sorry.. not good.


----------



## Belial88

I don't understand what you are getting at. You are saying with your 600ohm supremefx onboard audio, your headphones impedence was too great and caused it to be too quiet? 
  
 The guide is just hard to follow, it says a lot about 'this uses that' but i dunno what it's recommending or getting at. I dont understand half the stuff in it, 
  


> -Rapture3D. A software OpenAL driver from Blue Ripple Sound, and as such it only works on OpenAL games. It's listed here because it offers binaural mixing regardless of your hardware, with no less than six different HRTFs to choose from! Unfortunately, for Vista/Win7, enabling this option over headphones requires setting Windows' speaker setting to stereo so that Rapture3D's speaker layout control panel can switch to "Headphone Stereo (Compat.)"; otherwise, it just outright refuses to switch. HRTF options can be found under the Decoder tab.


 
  
 so... should I get this?

 I mean i dont get it, do i have 3d sound already or no? Should I be downloading something?


----------



## SaLX

1. No soundcard (let alone a motherboard) will ever amp a 600 ohm headphone adequately ... thing is a 600 ohm headphone isn't the 'best' by any means. Modern headphones with fantastically high impedance don't equate to being good anymore. In fact, completely do not think about this.....
  
 2. What headphone are you using? .. you may very well be getting great sound off your Mobo.. and yes you are getting 3D sound off it if configured correctly.
  
 3. OpenAL?? You playing old games and stuff because pretty much that's what Open AL is for (apart from Bordelands 2)?  Other contributors here may well chime in to help you.
  
 All told: don't worry


----------



## Evshrug

belial88 said:


> I don't understand what you are getting at. You are saying with your 600ohm supremefx onboard audio, your headphones impedence was too great and caused it to be too quiet?
> 
> The guide is just hard to follow, it says a lot about 'this uses that' but i dunno what it's recommending or getting at. I dont understand half the stuff in the guide.




Saying an amp is "600-Ohm headphone capable" is like saying a car is capable of 80 MPH. Sure a Toyota corolla might reach 80 MPH, but will it be driving well at that speed?And creating a pleasant experience for you? For amps It's more useful to find out the signal-to-noise ratio for sound clarity (an SB z-series card STARTS at 116dB) and the even more elusive spec about how many mW the amp puts out into a certain Ohm load.

When we talk amps for headphones, we don't care so much about loudness (not usually difficult), experienced users look for clarity, instrument separation, tight control, low distortion, and the objective ability for the sound to be created in a way that feels effortless.

I understand that the guide doesn't offer a lot of direction, just knowledge... but parts of it are really useful, and Nameless updates parts of it every once in a while. In between flight-sim games 

I would so much rather drive a Porsche at 80 mph than a neon, hell even my Golf drives much better.


----------



## Belial88

> 1. No soundcard (let alone a motherboard) will ever amp a 600 ohm headphone adequately ... thing is a 600 ohm headphone isn't the 'best' by any means. Modern headphones with fantastically high impedance don't equate to being good anymore. In fact, completely do not think about this.....


 

 What about one with a 600ohm headphone amp like the DRV632 or TPA6120A2? 
  


> 2. What headphone are you using? .. you may very well be getting great sound off your Mobo.. and yes you are getting 3D sound off it if configured correctly.


 
  
 I'm currently using the 681 EVO, but I'm in the market for a sub-$200 headphone. It'd be my first, I just go the EVO this week for my gf. 
  


> 3. OpenAL?? You playing old games and stuff because pretty much that's what Open AL is for (apart from Bordelands 2)?  Other contributors here may well chime in to help you.


 
  
 I was just quoting a random passage, I only play starcraft 2, which is directx9. I've been playing a bit of splinter cell blacklist recently though.
  


> Sure a Toyota corolla might reach 80 MPH, but will it be driving well at that speed?A


 
  
 Well... yea...80mph is easy for a go-cart that isn't limited. Maybe your example would be more example with 140mph+?
  


> I would so much rather drive a Porsche at 80 mph than a neon, hell even my Golf drives much better.


 
  
 You mean you'd rather drive a porsche at 5mph than a neon?


----------



## roguegeek

belial88 said:


> I'm a bit confused on what this guide is trying to say. Is it telling me to download something?
> 
> I have a Z87X-UD3H ALC898 with a DRV632 600 ohm headphone amp. As I understand, ALC898 is really good, and I have an amp onboard already, so I don't need a sound card because my sound is already super good. I don't really see any mention in the guide about this stuff.


 


belial88 said:


> I don't understand what you are getting at. You are saying with your 600ohm supremefx onboard audio, your headphones impedence was too great and caused it to be too quiet?
> 
> The guide is just hard to follow, it says a lot about 'this uses that' but i dunno what it's recommending or getting at. I dont understand half the stuff in it,
> 
> ...


 
  
 Belial88, you're making less and less sense with every post. You've asked some questions and you've gotten some feedback from people who are quite educated on the subject. It's sounding like you're trying to force an answer from them that you want to hear. What you have right now is an on-board codec in the form of ALC898 which generally sucks and you have some on-board amp that also generally sucks. Now will it work for you? Let's find out.
  
 First, what are you trying to accomplish? Next, what headphone are you wanting to use? Are you using the Superlux HD-681 EVO or are you looking into something else? If so, what? After, we can figure out if what you have will work or not and what to do next.


----------



## Belial88

> What you have right now is an on-board codec in the form of ALC898 which generally sucks and you have some on-board amp that also generally sucks. Now will it work for you? Let's find out


 
  
 No one really said it that straightforward, thanks. Is a sound card enough of an amp, er, will a sound card under $100 be better than the ALC898 + amp combo? Does my drv632 headphone amp improve quality much?
  


> First, what are you trying to accomplish? Next, what headphone are you wanting to use? Are you using the Superlux HD-681 EVO or are you looking into something else? If so, what? After, we can figure out if what you have will work or not and what to do next.


 
  
 Currently using the 681 evo but it's really a gift for my gf (just use it when she isnt around, when shes sleeping, that kind of thing, for now) but looking for a sub-$200, ideally under 150, headphones for myself. I listen to electronic (like justice, daft punk, kavinsky, not house or dubstep like bassnectar, skrillex, etc), general usage and media, sc2. Portability and isolation don't matter, these are literally just to replace some pc speakers I use. Comfort is very important as I use for 8+ hours at a time.
  
 I'm currently looking at 558 vs MA900 vs DT990 pro.


----------



## Evshrug

belial88 said:


> What about one with a 600ohm headphone amp like the DRV632 or [COLOR=444444]TPA6120A2? [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> I'm currently using the 681 EVO, but I'm in the market for a sub-$200 headphone. It'd be my first, I just go the EVO this week for my gf.
> ...



*Well, yes, but the point was that a Porsche simply handles speed in a much more refined way, even if you're never going to drive it's max speed.*


----------



## genclaymore

I believe they're saying that just because your onboard audio has a headphone amp that says it will drive up to 600ohm's do not mean it will do a good job or supply enough power for the headphones that need it, Most of the times they never really list the full specs of the headphone amp ic that there using.The point of using a headphone amp for headphones that need it is to supply them with enough power so they sound the way they should and not sound off, it can get loud all it want but it means nothing if the headphones are not getting driven right,because then it just be a loud mess instead of the perfectly driven headphone. Lot of people think if it get loud then it good enough, that is not the case. The problem with most on-board audio is they cheap out here and there. Sure Some Z87 mobos doesn't do this like the gigabyte sniper broads But others do.
  
 Only reason to keep using onboard if you are using optical and plugging into a external dac amp,then you just be getting the functions of the onboard and sending it over to a external dac amp. If your using analog then since your realtek isn't that good as you think it is, Your headphones wont get the full benfit until you plug it into a better source. I have used headphones off onboard audio in the past, that AD700 did not sound too hot, til it was plug into a sound card, which improved it greatly. You might not understand this now because you never used any thing else other then onboard as it seems. But once you do, you will understand.


----------



## roguegeek

belial88 said:


> Currently using the 681 evo but it's really a gift for my gf (just use it when she isnt around, when shes sleeping, that kind of thing, for now) but looking for a sub-$200, ideally under 150, headphones for myself. I listen to electronic (like justice, daft punk, kavinsky, not house or dubstep like bassnectar, skrillex, etc), general usage and media, sc2. Portability and isolation don't matter, these are literally just to replace some pc speakers I use. Comfort is very important as I use for 8+ hours at a time.
> 
> I'm currently looking at 558 vs MA900 vs DT990 pro.


 
 Ok. So we can assume that, because you are here, you're also wanting to make sure they work for not just music, but gaming as well. Correct?
  
 In that case, let's do a very brief rundown what you should probably do. YUou'll want to look at upping your current directional audio capabilities. You can do this through almost any Sound Blaster or Xonar card and gain access to the CMSS-3D or Dolby Headphone codec which will be far superior to anything you have on-board. You need to think about what headphones you're using and if they need additional amping. All of the cans you listed above would do well with some sort of external amp, but depending on the card you pick, you _may_ not need it. In this case, I would say pick the card first based on your needs and then pick a can based on the card and your needs.


----------



## tsine

I have a gaming pc and i am playing bf4 most of the time .So i would like to pair my akg k701 with a good sound card with build in headphone amp OR a sound card + external amp OR external sound card +external amp . One of these three if something is better that the other.
  
  
 I would like good music playback but first i would like to have the best positioning audio when playing bf4 .
  
 I dont like mess 3d sound with unspecific positions of tanks and helicopter and also loss of any footsteps .


----------



## genclaymore

Depending on where you are in the world you can find a Sound blaster Z cheap on ebay, Then I have seen Aune T1 usb dac amp around $140 on ebay which is a good choice.


----------



## motorwayne

Just checking before I fork it up.
  
 I have a SB X-Fi Titanium HD and K612's at the mo. I have a JDS Labs O2 amp arriving for a bit more beef, and want to run that in between the card and the headphones.
  
 Do I just use the HP out on the card straight to the amp in or should I use the optical out to to the amp. Bearing in mind that I want to continue using CMSS as my 3D positioning software, plus what settings should I use?
  
 Cheers
 motorwayne
 Bandit Hunter


----------



## PurpleAngel

motorwayne said:


> Just checking before I fork it up.
> 
> I have a SB X-Fi Titanium HD and K612's at the mo. I have a JDS Labs O2 amp arriving for a bit more beef, and want to run that in between the card and the headphones.
> 
> ...


 
 Titanium HD's RCA jacks to the input on the O2 amp.
 So an RCA (red/white) to 3.5mm cable is what you need.
 The Ti-HD's RCA output is the better analog audio signal to feed into external headphone amplifier.
 The Ti-HD can send CMSS-3D headphone surround sound thru the RCA output.


----------



## SaLX

This may well be a very silly question, but in Windows is this a right or wrong assumption?  Setting the 'Device' at 100% volume is clearly the way to go (ie with your Xonar, Creative or USB DAC).
  
 My question is this: what of the _application_ volume? If Internet Explorer, VLC, Youtube or WMP etc are at 50% say, but the Device volume is at 100%: will that degrade the audio to any noticeable degree (for a nerd)? IE: do you _absolutely_ have to have both Device and Application volume at 100% for a perfect bitstream and solely controlled by the volume dial on your external Amp?
  
 Thanks for any replies. Sometimes difficult to find out stuff by doing a search here.


----------



## Evshrug

Motorwayne,
The O2 amp can't do anything with the digital signal in an optical connection. So, you should use an analogue output... With the TiHD, you can use either the hp jack or the RCA connections. Just make sure the TiHD is set for headphone surround processing.


Tsine,
I say get an Omni and the best headphone you can afford. From what I read, the K701 was revised to sound like the Q701, I do have the Q701 and that headphone is a strong value. I like SBX surround better than Dolby Headphone, it has less reverb and cave-like feeling, better detail and just seems to create a nice natural surround soundstage for me.

If you desire more, start saving up around $200 for a nice amp or DAC/amp combo (with optical input) that will give noticeable gains over the Omni (which already will be noticeably better than motherboard audio). For the K701, I suggest a solid-state Matrix M-Stage or tube hybrid Project Ember. If you want a DAC/Amp combo, the DAC is going to need an optical input, like some of the Audio GD products or the new Geek Pulse. At this point the Omni or any other soundcard would have most of it's major audio components bypassed to use the external gear, you're just using the "card" for processing the surround effect, and since all the Z line uses the same processing, seems clear to me to get a fair one that costs the least.


----------



## benbenkr

salx said:


> This may well be a very silly question, but in Windows is this a right or wrong assumption?  Setting the 'Device' at 100% volume is clearly the way to go (ie with your Xonar, Creative or USB DAC).
> 
> My question is this: *what of the application volume? If Internet Explorer, VLC, Youtube or WMP etc are at 50% say, but the Device volume is at 100%: will that degrade the audio to any noticeable degree* (for a nerd)? IE: do you _absolutely_ have to have both Device and Application volume at 100% for a perfect bitstream and solely controlled by the volume dial on your external Amp?
> 
> Thanks for any replies. Sometimes difficult to find out stuff by doing a search here.


 
  
 In theory, yes.
  
 But in reality, unless you're a cat I don't think you'd be able to tell a difference. Any difference is placebo, I'm not kidding. This goes to anyone else that says they hear a difference in this situation.


----------



## tsine

evshrug said:


> Motorwayne,
> The O2 amp can't do anything with the digital signal in an optical connection. So, you should use an analogue output... With the TiHD, you can use either the hp jack or the RCA connections. Just make sure the TiHD is set for headphone surround processing.
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for your time . I am not using on board audio . I currently using a DGX asus which is mediocre .


----------



## kalston

tsine said:


> I have a gaming pc and i am playing bf4 most of the time .So i would like to pair my akg k701 with a good sound card with build in headphone amp OR a sound card + external amp OR external sound card +external amp . One of these three if something is better that the other.
> 
> 
> I would like good music playback but first i would like to have the best positioning audio when playing bf4 .
> ...


 
 BF4 already has a built in headphones mode that works perfectly! 
  
 There's two audio options just make sure you select "headphones" and "surround" (yes even with standard stereo headphones, for some reason when you use "headphones" + "stereo" it results in horrible channel separation, no crossfeed at all... bad audio positioning as a result and fatiguing after a while, Dice did something wrong there, even though all is fine in BF3) Ofc then you need to set your speakers setup to stereo in Windows and audio drivers and disable Dolby Headphones, GX2.5 or anything like that. 
  
 And the Asus Xonar DGX is a very good card by the way.


----------



## tsine

kalston said:


> BF4 already has a built in headphones mode that works perfectly!
> 
> There's two audio options just make sure you select "headphones" and "surround" (yes even with standard stereo headphones, for some reason when you use "headphones" + "stereo" it results in horrible channel separation, no crossfeed at all... bad audio positioning as a result and fatiguing after a while, Dice did something wrong there, even though all is fine in BF3) Ofc then you need to set your speakers setup to stereo in Windows and audio drivers and disable Dolby Headphones, GX2.5 or anything like that.
> 
> And the Asus Xonar DGX is a very good card by the way.


 
 Yes the dgx is not so good low snr very noize at 64 ohm amp and not the perfect sounder aout there . But i will give it a try . I set me card to stereo and windows to stereo and BF4 set to HI-FI and Surround and i will report my resaults here .


----------



## kalston

tsine said:


> Yes the dgx is not so good low snr very noize at 64 ohm amp and not the perfect sounder aout there . But i will give it a try . I set me card to stereo and windows to stereo and BF4 set to HI-FI and Surround and i will report my resaults here .


 
 Headphones and surround, not hi-fi and surround.


----------



## tsine

Ok first i set my windοws and dgx settings to stereo 
  
 i tried surround +hi-fi 
  
 Then tried surround+headphone
  
 then surround+war types
  
 then surround + home cinema 
  
 Nothing was impressive to a degreee that we can say "whao".
  
 surround+headphones its still better that dolby headphone ...we can say near enough to Razer 7.1 but not what i was expecting .I will give it a little more testing over the next days to see


----------



## genclaymore

Did you config your windows control panel sound controll to 5.1 as well asus xonar sound card to 5.1 in the speakers setting including games, if you don't do this, Dolby headphone wont sound right.


----------



## Murder Mike

genclaymore said:


> Did you config your windows control panel sound controll to 5.1 as well asus xonar sound card to 5.1 in the speakers setting including games, if you don't do this, Dolby headphone wont sound right.


 
 Exactly. Make sure you're doing this tsine. Dolby Headphone isn't perfect, but it should provide better results than Razer Surround.


----------



## MrEleventy

Sure hope that I get my SB X-Fi Surround 5.1 soon, Razer Surround is acting oddly and I'm not liking it. Was listening to Spotify and after a few minutes, volume levels drastically dropped while it's still maxed in the windows mixer. Had no idea what was happening. Killing Razer Surround fixes it but when I started it back up to game, it no longer lists my onboard as an audio source. Definitely glad I didn't pay for it. :mad:


----------



## motorwayne

purpleangel said:


> Titanium HD's RCA jacks to the input on the O2 amp.
> So an RCA (red/white) to 3.5mm cable is what you need.
> The Ti-HD's RCA output is the better analog audio signal to feed into external headphone amplifier.
> The Ti-HD can send CMSS-3D headphone surround sound thru the RCA output.


 
  
  
 Thanks mate, perfectly clear explanation  Man I love this card, I had the ZX-R before this and I reckon the X-Fi CMSS-3D is superior.
  
 motorwayne


----------



## motorwayne

Actually, while I'm on it..what's are peoples thoughts on best the drivers for the X-Fi HD?
  
 I have tried the PAX drivers (problematic to get them to install correctly on the 2014 version) and the latest drivers via Creative..what about Daniel_K, does he still have or every had one for the HD? 
 Who has experience with this stuff and can give good advice?
  
 Cheers
  
 motorwayne


----------



## tsine

murder mike said:


> Exactly. Make sure you're doing this tsine. Dolby Headphone isn't perfect, but it should provide better results than Razer Surround.


 
 Yes i did that but the surround is very open so you still cant get the surround sound correct 
  
 Dolby headphone gives you better sound but worst positioning audio


----------



## genclaymore

Not for me, when config like how i mention it does a good job with positioning audio some times even a great job like it did for the K702 I had in the past when I used DH mode 1 config the way I mention. I found that different headphones work different with dolby headphone and the different modes settings. Where Mode 2 didn't work well on K702, Like it did on the DT880 pro-250 or like Mode 3 which I use for DT880 premium 600's.  But Mode 1 is Ref so it doesn't add any echo which why AKG K702 worked so well on mode 1 then it did Mode 2. In the end it had very good positional audio but for me it depended on the headphone.
  
 I used to use Razer surround, it did not do a good job in postional audio for me, even after i set it up towards my ears. the Rear was hard to tell and the directions didn't sound all right, also razer surround had sound stating issues where it would static and make a mess of the sound. That was a major reason why i stop using the razer software and got a cheap used DGX and went for Dolby headphone which worked very good on my end.


----------



## tsine

So to be more clear . I have to set windows to 5.1 (Not 7.1 ) and only enable dolby headphone (not 7.1 virtual surround sound above ?).
  
 Something else ASIO 24 bit with latency 1ms can effect surround sound ?


----------



## genclaymore

Yea, windows  should be 5.1 and if games has a speaker setting it should also be 5.1. Then try out the different Dolby headphone modes and use the one which sound good to you with your headphones.


----------



## tsine

genclaymore said:


> Yea, windows  should be 5.1 and if games has a speaker setting it should also be 5.1. Then try out the different Dolby headphone modes and use the one which sound good to you with your headphones.






No 7.1 virtual speaker enable ?


----------



## genclaymore

When I tried I couldn't tell if it did any thing. So I keep it off.


----------



## chuccck

First post.  What sound card or amp do i need to get the most out the 32 ohm DT 770s I just bought?  I would say I will use them for 75% gaming and 25% music.  I am definitely looking for the budget option to get the direction/surround while playing games.   Is this Asus Xonar DGX a good bet or should I go with something like the x-fi go!  Thanks for your help


----------



## chuccck

First post.  What amp or sound card should I get to get the most out of the 32ohm DT 770s I just bought while playing games?  I am looking for a budget option to get the directional/surround sound effect while playing games like BF3 or Skyrim.  Would the x-fi go for $30 be a good choice or maybe the asus xonar dg for $40?  Something else? total newb, thanks for any help.


----------



## kalston

For BF3 (same with BF4) the game has a built in headphones option that works very well, try it before rushing out to buy something (with good cans like yours it should work just fine).
  
 I wouldn't bother with virtual surround on Skyrim because the game has really bad audio quality to start with (when you have decent headphones and a clean soundcard you can instantly notice the badly compressed audio) and processing badly compressed audio doesn't really do much good IMO. The latest Ubisoft games I tried suffered from the same thing (Assassin's Creed, Prince of Persia...) and when I used virtual surround the result was not really pleasant to my ears. Feel free to try it out though, be it Razer or Dolby or something else, I'm just telling you what I experienced.


----------



## chuccck

Thanks, I am sure I will love the headphones. Just don't want to feel like I am missing out on anything.


----------



## tsine

Yes i used dolby headphone with the settings above  for one day. The quiality of the sound doesn't compete razer ,is far superior with all that explosions and the sound was very cleaner . In the other hand the surround is a little different . I had this weird feeling of closed room . The whole game was like playing iν a big room and not like i was in an open battlefield .
  
 Maybe i ask for too much from surround sound i dont know but nothing impresses me.


----------



## Evshrug

I felt the same way until I found a type of virtual surround that synergized with my ears. I was almost ready to give up on surround, didn't seem to have that much directionality until I tried my Recon3D USB. And, I had to mess with the surround percentage. I'm not saying you need the same device as me, I'm saying I suspect that the differences between ears can make a big difference.


----------



## tsine

So how i will find the best for me i have to buy many different cards with surround sound . One with SBX PRO one with CSS3D one with Dobly home theater and One with Dolby headphone to find the best . 
  
 If i cannot do that how i will find the best sound card to buy?


----------



## Evshrug

Well, I have a bunch of YouTube virtual surround demos collected in my "If I knew then..." thread linked in my signature. I don't have EVERY algorithm (and I'd like to record my own for THX TSP), and of course YouTube compression means it'll sound a bit better when heard "live," but still, it's free and easy.


----------



## mindbomb

kalston said:


> For BF3 (same with BF4) the game has a built in headphones option that works very well, try it before rushing out to buy something (with good cans like yours it should work just fine).


 
  
  
 i don't have bf3, but the headphone option in bf4 is just a euphemism for a bass boost. It doesn't do anything like dolby headphone and similar software.
  
 For BF4 with a dgx, go to the xonar control panel, set it to audio channel - 6 channels, sample rate - 48khz, analog out - headphone, dolby headphone checked with DH1. Go to windows control panel, audio, right click on the dgx, go to properties, advanced, and select 24 bit, 48 khz for the default format. In the game, select surround and HiFi.


----------



## roguegeek

This isn't rocket science. For BF4 (and BF3) use HiFi on Stereo mode in the settings and let the Dolby Headphone or CMSS-3D (which I prefer) take care of the rest. If you aren't getting good positional accuracy with this, something is wrong.


----------



## Evshrug

Battlefield has some complicated sound settings.
I thought that, in BF3, you had to chose Home Theater mode (and set windows for 5.1/7.1) so that the soundcard has multiple channels to create directionality, otherwise you're basically performing the same thing as faking surround, guessed from 2 channels. Pretty sure (in BF3) that Hi-Fi mode is just for 2 full-range speakers (2.0 stereo), DH and SBX need the extra channels to properly distinguish between front and back accurately.


----------



## mindbomb

roguegeek said:


> This isn't rocket science. For BF4 (and BF3) use HiFi on Stereo mode in the settings and let the Dolby Headphone or CMSS-3D (which I prefer) take care of the rest. If you aren't getting good positional accuracy with this, something is wrong.


 
  
 idk if you mistyped, but BF4 has to be set to surround. The key to get great results with dolby headphone and similar technologies is to make sure they receive surround input. So the whole pathway, from game to operating system to hardware, has to have surround sound. So the game has to output surround sound (this is why you select surround in bf4), the OS has to not downmix it (hence why you set the windows mixer to 5.1) and then your sound card can create a proper binaural mix.


----------



## mindbomb

evshrug said:


> Battlefield has some complicated sound settings.
> I thought that, in BF3, you had to chose Home Theater mode (and set windows for 5.1/7.1) so that the soundcard has multiple channels to create directionality, otherwise you're basically performing the same thing as faking surround, guessed from 2 channels. Pretty sure (in BF3) that Hi-Fi mode is just for 2 full-range speakers (2.0 stereo), DH and SBX need the extra channels to properly distinguish between front and back accurately.


 

 For BF4, I believe these settings aren't that important. I think headphone is just a bass boost, and home cinema has an LFE crossover, while HiFi is just normal sound.
  
 The speaker configuration setting is more important, as the game outputs 5.1 if you select surround, but 2.0 if you select stereo.


----------



## tsine

So in conclusion because this will help a lot of people . 
  
 First I have to set bf4 to hifi mode and surround sound ?
  
 And second 5.1 surround sound in windows and headphones 64ohm in asus program  and 6Channel .
  
 Then enable dolby headphone and try what DH is better while playing ?
  
 Correct me if i am wrong ?


----------



## mindbomb

Well, I guess the key things are making sure surround is selected in BF4, making sure 6 channel is selected in the asus control panel, and making sure dolby headphone is also selected in the asus control panel.
  
 Speaker type (headphone vs home cinema vs hifi) and Dolby headphone settings (dh1 vs dh2 vs dh3) are preference, but I use HiFi and DH1.
  
 The BF4 speaker configuration (stereo vs surround) controls whether bf4 outputs 2.0 or 5.1. The audio channel in the asus control panel controls the windows mixer, and needs to be set to 6 to allow 5.1 audio from the game to go through Windows and reach the hardware without getting downmixed. Dolby headphone is needed to create a binaural mix from the 5.1.


----------



## chicolom

Does anyone know why, _in Windows 8_, if you change your default audio playback device in the middle of an audio stream, that stream often stays with the "old" device and doesn't switch over to playing on your new default playback device? 
  
 For example, I've got a audio stream from Firefox playing on my SB Z, then I set my FiiO E10 to the default playback device but the audio stream _continues _to play on the SB Z instead of instantly switching over to my E10.  I'm pretty sure windows 7 instantly switched the streams over.
  
 What's up with that?


----------



## Orodromeus

Greetings!
  
 Thanks a lot for the awesome guide!
  
 I'm new here (first message ) and just purchased a pair of Q701s....
 Coming from the Razer Charcharias and Platronics Gamecom 780, I decided it's time to finally upgrade my audio experience 
  
 I haven't received the Q701s yet, though I would like to be ready for them when they arrive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I am still rather confused and unsure of what I should do / get now...I haven't really paid too much attention to superb audio till now...
  
 Been using gaming headsets for quite a few years...most of them USB driven I think...Which took away the use for a good sound card...Or so I thought..
  
 All I have at the moment is an onboard sound card that came with my motherboard (Asus P8Z77-V DELUXE...ALC898 audio codec I presume?)...I have no idea how good it is and if I should replace it...Any recommendation for a nice Sound card in that case? Should I actually go down that route? Or get an external DAC?
  
I'm going to be using them for gaming, movies, music , video editing, animation, lip syncing, voice chat and so on :/
 EDIT: Forgot to say that surround sound is quite important to me...Got addicted to the virtual 7.1 the Gamecom 780 gave me..haha )
  
 The whole question of DAC vs Sound Card + Amp is really confusing to me at the moment and I'm not sure how to tackle this 
  
 I understood that I SHOULD get an amp for these headphones, but what exactly should I get? Same problem as with the sound card, haha ^^
  
 Could someone please give me a hand?  
 I'm not entirely sure where I'm standing and what is actually necessary for me to get ^^
  
 Thanks ahead in advance!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 * (here's a link to the motherboard I have atm, I'm assuming the onboard sound card is not stellar? http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/P8Z77V_DELUXE/#specifications 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## Murder Mike

orodromeus said:


> Could someone please give me a hand?
> I'm not entirely sure where I'm standing and what is actually necessary for me to get ^^


 
  
 Pick one of the entry level sound cards (Xonar DG/DGX, Creative Titanium, or Sound Blaster Z) and add a desktop amp to the chain and see how you like it. For the Q701, you would probably be looking at something like an E09K or Magni.


----------



## Orodromeus

murder mike said:


> Pick one of the entry level sound cards (Xonar DG/DGX, Creative Titanium, or Sound Blaster Z) and add a desktop amp to the chain and see how you like it. For the Q701, you would probably be looking at something like an E09K or Magni.




@Murder Mike - Heya! Thanks for the reply! Sounds like a great plan to me 

Which card do you think will be the best for the job for now? I had my eye on the xonar essence stx and the titanium hd... Do you, perhaps, have any specific recommendation for me?  

Heard good things on both, a bit more on the stx I think....A good sound card should be be good DAC, right? 

Thanks ahead!


----------



## MrEleventy

Just wondering... 

Currently my setup is as follows : 
X-Fi Surround 5.1 - What U Hear >> NFB 12​
Is there benefit to change it to : 
X-Fi Surround 5.1 - Optical >> NFB 12​
I know the NFB12 can handle 24/192 via optical but the output of the X-Fi is 24/96 so I don't think I'll "benefit" from it. I ask because I don't have an optical cable handy and would rather save the $10 if it's not needed. I have enough cords as it is. Thanks.


----------



## Murder Mike

orodromeus said:


> Which card do you think will be the best for the job for now? Do you, perhaps, have any specific recommendation for me?


 
  
 Honestly, head over to MLE's thread and listen to the youtube videos in the OP and see what kind of surround sound you prefer. You don't need an STX or Titanium HD at all. The DAC will be slightly better in those, but it's not worth the extra money. You can get a cheap card and run the sound out of the optical port to a standalone DAC if you wanted to go that route. This offers far greater flexibility in the end. 
  
 Cheap soundcards to choose from:
 Xonar DG/DGX (DG is PCI, DGX is PCI-E) - Dolby Headphone
 Creative Titanium - CMSS-3D
 Sound Blaster Z - SBX Pro Studio 
  
 If you just want something simple, the STX will probably do it, but you can get a cheap soundcard and desktop amp for around the same price.


----------



## SaLX

chicolom said:


> Does anyone know why, _in Windows 8_, if you change your default audio playback device in the middle of an audio stream, that stream often stays with the "old" device and doesn't switch over to playing on your new default playback device?
> 
> For example, I've got a audio stream from Firefox playing on my SB Z, then I set my FiiO E10 to the default playback device but the audio stream _continues _to play on the SB Z instead of instantly switching over to my E10.  I'm pretty sure windows 7 instantly switched the streams over.
> 
> What's up with that?


 
 I have had the same problem in Windows 7 chico and I don't have a clue as to why this happens. Anybody got any ideas?
  


mreleventy said:


> Just wondering...
> 
> Currently my setup is as follows : X-Fi Surround 5.1 - What U Hear >> NFB 12
> 
> Is there benefit to change it to : X-Fi Surround 5.1 - Optical >> NFB 12


 
 The DAC in the NFB 12 will be better than the one on your soundcard. I'd go for it.


----------



## tsine

I will receive my SOUNDBLASTER ZXR tommorow stay tuned !


----------



## chicolom

salx said:


> I have had the same problem in Windows 7 chico and I don't have a clue as to why this happens. Anybody got any ideas?


 
  
 If you have the same problem in windows 7 it might just be something with Windows having trouble switching the stream from the SB Z's 5.1 channels to other DAC's 2 channel stream.


----------



## motorwayne

salx said:


> The DAC in the NFB 12 will be better than the one on your soundcard. I'd go for it.


 
  
 So, let me get this straight. Will he still use the sound card for CMSS or will he have to go to some other surround solution?
  
 I'm interested because I love the CMSS via my X-Fi HD, I have it feeding a JDS Labs O2, going into some AKG K612's...but I'm always looking for more punch in game. Or, am I wasting time seeing as its just a full on gaming machine?
  
 Was that a Highjack?
  
 Hehe
  
 Cheers


----------



## SaLX

If you want to upgrade he (or you) could get an external DAC and amp (or a combined one) with _optical in_. An external DAC will almost always be better than a soundcard.
  
 The soundcard would send the surround out to his DAC in a PCM stream optically. The external DAC does all the work and as an added bonus you still get complete control of your soundcard's control panel ie EQ, your surround sound settings exactly as you want them, filters and DSP's etc etc. You'd still be connecting your mic into the soundcard though.. it'd just be configured as any other device. 
  
 No guarantee it will transform your experience, however I've been very happy going that route. Thing is.. your O2 is probably doing a very very good job in conjunction with your own X-Fi. In MrEleventy's case though, I'd score an optical lead asap, as his DAC section on his amp is _not being used_ _at all, _and will be better than his soundcard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 !!!!!!!


----------



## motorwayne

Roger that..sounds good.
  
 Cheers


----------



## tan1415

Hi guys what's is the best headphone that I can attach a vmoda mic boom to it?


----------



## SaLX

tan1415 said:


> Hi guys what's is the best headphone that I can attach a vmoda mic boom to it?


 
  
 Philips Fidelio X1 - great headphones.


----------



## MrEleventy

salx said:


> If you want to upgrade he (or you) could get an external DAC and amp (or a combined one) with _optical in_. An external DAC will almost always be better than a soundcard.
> 
> The soundcard would send the surround out to his DAC in a PCM stream optically. The external DAC does all the work and as an added bonus you still get complete control of your soundcard's control panel ie EQ, your surround sound settings exactly as you want them, filters and DSP's etc etc. You'd still be connecting your mic into the soundcard though.. it'd just be configured as any other device.
> 
> No guarantee it will transform your experience, however I've been very happy going that route. Thing is.. your O2 is probably doing a very very good job in conjunction with your own X-Fi. In MrEleventy's case though, I'd score an optical lead asap, as his DAC section on his amp is _not being used_ _at all,_ and will be better than his soundcard   !!!!!!!


Thanks. Putting an order to amazon then.  I tried it out with Nameless's setup and it sounds really good playing Dishonored. Vast improvement over the Razer.


----------



## kerr1ck

NamelessPFG and other contributors, thanks for the thread, audio is probably the part of PC building I've spent the least time on historically so this has been quite informative to read so far.
  
 My current setup is pretty basic: onboard Realtek audio driving Audioengine A5+ speakers. My usage is about 50-50 gaming and music (majority metal and industrial, high bitrate/vbr mp3)
  
 I have a Xonar DX available but left it out of this PC because while I thought the hardware was just fine, my experience with Asus driver/software was inconsistent at best and I wasn't really expecting good windows 8 support on such an old card. I see from reading here though that there are third party drivers available that are reliable.

 Based on reading it seems like I mainly have 2 changes I can immediately make:

 1) Install the Xonar and use that to drive the speakers
  
 2) Acquire a Modi or some other basic DAC, use stereo-mix/"What U hear" functionality to push the Realtek/Xonar output to it
  
  
 What I'm less clear on is that given my usage, whether I need to do both of these to see much benefit, or if one or the other would be the more drastic improvement. Any thoughts?


----------



## motorwayne

salx said:


> Philips Fidelio X1 - great headphones.


 
 I loved these headphones , but had to give them up because of the weight when turning from left to right with a TrackIR unit attached. The momentum combined with the weight was just to much and found the view swinging around a bit. I switched to the K612's that are half the weight, but still remember the dynamic sounds of the X1 fondly.


----------



## PurpleAngel

kerr1ck said:


> NamelessPFG and other contributors, thanks for the thread, audio is probably the part of PC building I've spent the least time on historically so this has been quite informative to read so far.
> My current setup is pretty basic: on-board Realtek audio driving Audioengine A5+ speakers. My usage is about 50-50 gaming and music (majority metal and industrial, high bitrate/vbr mp3)
> I have a Xonar DX available but left it out of this PC because while I thought the hardware was just fine, my experience with Asus driver/software was inconsistent at best and I wasn't really expecting good windows 8 support on such an old card. I see from reading here though that there are third party drivers available that are reliable.
> Based on reading it seems like I mainly have 2 changes I can immediately make:
> ...


 
 I've used an Essence STX and Xonar DS with Win 8.1, so far no problems.
 I do use the Unified Xonar Drivers.
  
 So I would suggest you disable on-board audio, in the BIOS and install the Xonar DX and Unified Xonar Drivers.
 The Modi might be a (slightly?) better DAC then the Xonar DX, but from what I understand, using the "What u hear" feature has a negative effect on audio quality.


----------



## SaLX

Congrats on Contributor status Purple - you've been a huge help for me since I joined.


----------



## Wibble Wobble

I was hoping that I wouldn't have to hijack a major thread like this one to answer my questions but I haven't had much luck posting my own thread.  I will try and keep this short.
  
 Objective:

Primary - PC gaming - I have previously used 2 different models of the Medusa 5.1 headset and the Zalman 5.1 headset.  Both were terrible for audio quality but incredible for positional accuracy and got me kick and banned from private servers with the belief that I was walling.  I want to replicate this experience however this time with great audio quality too.
Secondary - Music - I enjoy a range of music and I'm far from an audiophile so I'm probably not going to notice most of the cons listed on expensive headphones.  I do enjoy something with a beat but honestly as long as it's not opera or death metal - I'm happy.
Tertiary - Laying back watching movies.  Comfortable and clear.
  
 I am setting myself a negotiable budget of around $1000 (au).  I'm from Australia so I will probably buy from overseas as that's just about always cheaper even with shipping.
  
 Current thoughts:
  

ZxR - It's overkill but it can drive lots of headphones without the need of a DAC or AMP.  It is internal so interference is a possible problem and I have had this in the past with an X-Fi gaming card.
Beyerdynamic DT 990 PRO or better.  Leaving that as the benchmark to beat.  I could run it off the ZxR without need of an AMP.
  
 Questions:
  

Portable AMPs?  Do they run off batteries or somehow suck more power perhaps via usb from the source device like a smartphone?  Just with the pictures I have seen at times it has me puzzled.
Internal sound cards can have interference - I have a larger board (rampage extreme IV) and the PCI-E is near the bottom away from everything.  Is it likely that interference will be detectable on this board?
Off topic slightly - my Sennheiser MX 685 SPORTS were stolen and I need a new pair for gym and running.  These won't really comfortable and I opted for the open version which was a mistake as too much noise was let in and the audio quality was pretty bad.  Possible recommendations for replacements if you have a minute to spare?
  
 Thanks heaps for any and all assistance!  I'm more than happy to answer any questions you may need to ask before you're able to give an accurate recommendation.


----------



## 3stun

Has anyone compared SBX Pro on the newer SoundBlaster Z cards against THX TruSturio on Titanium cards?
 Do they produce the same results when mixing multichannel audio to stereo for headphones?


----------



## AUserName501

Here is a comparison of different Virtual Surround Sound software with the same audio track that you can listen to as the audio has already been processed into stereo. What do you like best?


----------



## Fegefeuer

Something from NIXXES about Thief. Not the most spectacular list though I guess something like elevation doesn't sound good enough for a slide.
  
  

  
 I mostly hate proprietary stuff. Don't want to buy an AMD card just for Thief.


----------



## genclaymore

AMD said it will work on any audio hardware and that it was just a API that you turn off the sound card virtual surround effects to use.


----------



## Fegefeuer

It won't work without an AMD graphics card that features the Tensilica DSP. What it does is let codecs, drivers etc. read the final mix out of the ram and onto your soundcard, onboard whatever. That's what they mean with working on every hardware.


----------



## Orodromeus

murder mike said:


> Honestly, head over to MLE's thread and listen to the youtube videos in the OP and see what kind of surround sound you prefer. You don't need an STX or Titanium HD at all. The DAC will be slightly better in those, but it's not worth the extra money. You can get a cheap card and run the sound out of the optical port to a standalone DAC if you wanted to go that route. This offers far greater flexibility in the end.
> 
> Cheap soundcards to choose from:
> Xonar DG/DGX (DG is PCI, DGX is PCI-E) - Dolby Headphone
> ...


 
 Heya! Apologies for the late reply...(hectic times at work ^^)
  
 I did as you suggested and watched / listened to some other comparisons online...I didnt spot too many bad things between them, but SBX sounded pretty sweet...they all did, but it felt like SBX was a bit more accurate perhaps? DH was nice as well...I did notice that reverb thing people talk about...SBX, THX, CMSS-3D and DH were all sounding pretty decent I guess...
  
 When I have the time, I watch a lot of movies / shows, and play games...music not as much, but I'm going to change that when my Q701s arrive next week 
  
 I am still confused and unsure of which direction to go with this...
  
 Any idea how the Sound Blasters z's are for movies / games / music? 
 I'm also assuming less driver problems on windows 8.1 since it's a rather new card series...
  
 Aside from Music, is the STX stellar for movies & games as well?
  
 SB Z is 160$ here, Essence STX is 245$. DGX is 54$ and DSX is 94$....If I import the SB ZXR it'll cost around 341$...
  
 I really want to make the right choice haha...
 Will SB Z give me the ability to use DH as well?  
  
 I have the tendency to spend a lot on a product, but only if I'm assured it's good and going to last me a long time ;P
  
 I would like to get an external DAC + Amp...like the Modi & Magni stack for example, but it'll end up exhausting my budget atm, since I'll need a sound card for the surround anyhow, haha 
 (Or am I wrong? :O)
 I thought of maybe getting the best possible sound card I can atm, Last with it for a while and upgrade to an external stack in the future...It's just that I understood the Q701 need a good amp to sound good ;/
  
 What would you have done in my stead? 
  
 I apologize in advance..I must be sounding like an idiot 
  
 Thanks ahead!


----------



## tsine

I did get creative soundblaster ZXR pretty awesome card ! Surround is amazing !


----------



## rabidgamer

I just got and installed a Xonar DGX to use with my Fidelio X1s today, and I'm wondering what the best options are for Dolby Headphone? I currently have the Unified Drivers Installed.
  
 I want stereo sound to be unaffected (so music etc sounds normal, not 5.1) but gaming etc to be in 5.1. I'm use to the mixamp etc but when it comes to PC sound got no clue.
  
 My current set up is:
  

  
  
  
 I tick Dolby Headphone when gaming, and untick for normal use (music etc) is this the best set up? Or is there a better way to do it? Currently using DH-2 aswell.
  
 Any help is appreciated, cheers.


----------



## tsine

Ι had the dgx and the surround sound was not so good you can check my posts at 173-175 or back i do not remeber ...Now i am currently using a Sound Blaster Card and the surround is awesome and the positioning audio when playing BF4 got to the next level compared to DGX Dolby .....


----------



## pietcux

rabidgamer said:


> I just got and installed a Xonar DGX to use with my Fidelio X1s today, and I'm wondering what the best options are for Dolby Headphone? I currently have the Unified Drivers Installed.
> 
> I want stereo sound to be unaffected (so music etc sounds normal, not 5.1) but gaming etc to be in 5.1. I'm use to the mixamp etc but when it comes to PC sound got no clue.
> 
> ...


 
  
 On my Xonar U1 I use 8 channels (7.1) and DH2. That is what the gaming preset uses. BTW, what is the advantage of the unified driver? Or daoes the DGX come without Dolby options?


----------



## rabidgamer

pietcux said:


> On my Xonar U1 I use 8 channels (7.1) and DH2. That is what the gaming preset uses. BTW, what is the advantage of the unified driver? Or daoes the DGX come without Dolby options?


 
 Not sure of any advantage, think it sets the correct settings from the get go and gives you to option of less RAM usage etc? I just saw it mentioned quite a lot so figured I'd give them a go.


----------



## DJINFERNO806

.


----------



## mindbomb

rabidgamer said:


> I tick Dolby Headphone when gaming, and untick for normal use (music etc) is this the best set up? Or is there a better way to do it? Currently using DH-2 aswell.
> Any help is appreciated, cheers.


 
  
  
 I use 48khz and dolby headphone all the time in the control panel. Use ASIO in your music software to disable all digital processing by the xonar driver rather than constantly switching back and forth.


----------



## CFGamescape

I'm building a small form factor gaming PC and there won't be any room for a sound card. What would you guys recommend for an external DAC / amp setup to drive my K702 Annies for gaming (e.g., Battlefield)?


----------



## AUserName501

Spoiler: Quote: CFGamescape



Quote: 





cfgamescape said:


> I'm building a small form factor gaming PC and there won't be any room for a sound card. What would you guys recommend for an external DAC / amp setup to drive my K702 Annies for gaming (e.g., Battlefield)?





 
 Xonar U7 (Dolby Headphone) or X-Fi HD/X-Fi Surround (SBX Pro Studio) + Objective2/Schiit Magni
  
 Use the line out on the usb sound card.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Can't listen to this at work so you guys go first:
  
 http://www.newaudiotechnology.de/produkte/sage-spatial-audio-game-engine/
  
  
 SAGE – Spatial Audio Game Engine with Doom 3 Demo. 
  
 They also have an application like Razer's Surround, just for 169€ more.
  
 http://www.newaudiotechnology.de/produkte/spatial-sound-card/


----------



## AUserName501

Spoiler: Quote: Fegefeuer






fegefeuer said:


> Can't listen to this at work so you guys go first:
> 
> http://www.newaudiotechnology.de/produkte/sage-spatial-audio-game-engine/
> 
> ...


 
  


 
 I'm going to have to try this. They also have a virtual sound card too.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I don't have Doom 3 anymore. Can you record a bit? I know the samples of Doom are outdated (like Bioshock) but still, could be interesting for us.


----------



## CFGamescape

ausername501 said:


> Xonar U7 (Dolby Headphone) or X-Fi HD/X-Fi Surround (SBX Pro Studio) + Objective2/Schiit Magni
> 
> Use the line out on the usb sound card.


 

 Thanks!


----------



## GoldenboyJay

Hi Guys, do you have any experience or comparison between Superlux 668B and Superlux HD330 for PC gaming? I wanted to know which is better sounding for positional audio and better soundstage for FPS (BF3/BF4). At the moment, i can't decide which to buy for the same price point.


----------



## MrEleventy

Depends on your setup. 668B is easier to drive at 56ohms. HD330 is 300ohms so you'll need either a soundcard with a decent amp or a stand alone amp. I would probably lean toward the 668B due to it's brighter/neutral sound signature for positional accuracy.


----------



## GoldenboyJay

mreleventy said:


> Depends on your setup. 668B is easier to drive at 56ohms. HD330 is 300ohms so you'll need either a soundcard with a decent amp or a stand alone amp. I would probably lean toward the 668B due to it's brighter/neutral sound signature for positional accuracy.


 
 Thanks for the tip. I've also read about the highs on 668Bs is not so pleasant in longer plays compared to HD330s? But this is fixable in EQ... Anyway, i think the real issue would be the impedance difference on both.


----------



## MrEleventy

Yeah, it's definitely EQ-able. Keep in mind also that It's easier to EQ down to remove something than it is to EQ up to add. If it's not supposed to be bright and detailed, EQing up will sound unnatural. Plus, you'll need a strong amp for more headroom if you EQ properly. (Notching everything else down while leaving the desired area the same.)


----------



## PhillipJFy

I am rather new to all this as Pandora's box was opened not long ago by a friend lending me his DAC for a few days...I can't go back to just onboard sound from my 6 year old laptop.
  
 That said I am going to be building a new desktop and am not sure what is the best route to go, Sound card or DAC+AMP.
  
 I use a Logitech Z-5300 5.1 set for general listening and light gaming but use Sennheiser HD558s+Ant Lion Mod Mic for more serious listening of music/movies/recordings and gaming. I guess that makes me a "rounded" listener.
  
 So, I would like to be able to easily switch back and forth between both setups and have great sound for at least the HD558s. However, I don't want to lose positional audio when gaming.
  
 Price limit is $100-ish for sound card or $150-ish for DAC+AMP.
  
 I guess that makes Option 1: run Logitechs through sound card and HD558s+Mod Mic through front panel and Option 2: run Logitechs through onboard sound of the new rig's mobo and run a DAC+AMP from the S/PDIF out (to get good sound on HD558s and retain positional audio)
  
  
 I am so very lost, please help.


----------



## PippoXD

Hello,
  
 let me start by saying im new to PC audio but im very interested in getting the best available option i can when it comes to buying something new.
  
 I'm playing atm with PC363d through its own soundcard in 5.1, but my needs have changed and now i need some kind of setup which involves closed headphones, unlike mine but still in 5.1.
  
 I'm playing counter strike global offensive and as i understood it uses MSS, i honestly do not know what this means as a restriction for my options.
  
 From what i can gather, which is little, im inclined to buy a sound card like a titanium HD/asus rog phoebus/creative zxr + akg 550/seinnheiser g4me zero (little info out on these headphones) + a mod mic. However i would like to know if these will suit my needs or if there is something better. I would prefer my setup to be portable, to be able to play in a diferent PC if necessary, but if portable=less quality i dont really need it.
  
  
 I also own Logitech 5.1 z5500 if it would help with something.
  
 I dont really have a budget but im willing to go to 300-400 euros, i think it should be enough.
  
 EDIT: *AudioTecnica ATH-**A900X Headphones are also in the run*


----------



## Murder Mike

phillipjfy said:


> Price limit is $100-ish for sound card or $150-ish for DAC+AMP.
> 
> I guess that makes Option 1: run Logitechs through sound card and HD558s+Mod Mic through front panel and Option 2: run Logitechs through onboard sound of the new rig's mobo and run a DAC+AMP from the S/PDIF out (to get good sound on HD558s and retain positional audio)


 
  
 Sound Blaster Z OEM and a Magni/O2/E09K.
  
 The Logitech speakers aren't refined enough to benefit from anything other than your onboard, so just run them through that (all IMO obviously). 
  
 Quote:


pippoxd said:


> I dont really have a budget but im willing to go to 300-400 euros, i think it should be enough.



  
 For closed, a popular option seems to be the SoundMagic HP100. So look into that and pair it with the appropriate sound card and amp. If you're buying one of those higher end sound cards, you probably won't even need a separate amp.


----------



## PhillipJFy

> *Murder Mike:*
> Sound Blaster Z OEM and a Magni/O2/E09K.
> 
> The Logitech speakers aren't refined enough to benefit from anything other than your onboard, so just run them through that (all IMO obviously).


 
  
 I agree that the Logitechs don't need more than onboard sound. As for the Sennheiser HD558s, I was thinking I could use my motherboards S/PDIF out in order to retain DSP/positional audio. Are there any DACs that have S/PDIF inputs around the $150 range? Also, because the HD558s are only 50ohm impedance I know they aren't terribly difficult to drive, so, would an amp or dac be better?


----------



## Murder Mike

phillipjfy said:


> I agree that the Logitechs don't need more than onboard sound. As for the Sennheiser HD558s, I was thinking I could use my motherboards S/PDIF out in order to retain DSP/positional audio. Are there any DACs that have S/PDIF inputs around the $150 range? Also, because the HD558s are only 50ohm impedance I know they aren't terribly difficult to drive, so, would an amp or dac be better?


 
  
 What surround processing does your motherboard use? If I was you, I would just buy something like the Sound Blaster Z and see how you like it. That will work as your DAC, amp, and providing SBX Pro Studio. You can add an amp later if you'd like.


----------



## PhillipJFy

murder mike said:


> What surround processing does your motherboard use? If I was you, I would just buy something like the Sound Blaster Z and see how you like it. That will work as your DAC, amp, and providing SBX Pro Studio. You can add an amp later if you'd like.


 
 The board is an ASRock Z87 Extreme4 which runs an ALC1150 with a TI NE5532 amplifier (claimed to drive up to 600ohm cans), 115dB SNR, and has built on shielding. It also supports DTS Connect and has S/PDIF out. Read more here if you want>>http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z87%20Extreme4/
  
 I think all of that means that I can run the Logitech system with no issue. My Mod Mic will just go into front panel as that isn't a huge concern of mine.
  
 My only issue with using a discrete card is that I either have to give my case a reach-around to switch from back panel or suffer noise/loss using front panel. Which makes me attracted to running the HD558s off a DAC, Amp, or DACAMP combo running on S/PDIF out.


----------



## PhillipJFy

murder mike said:


> What surround processing does your motherboard use? If I was you, I would just buy something like the Sound Blaster Z and see how you like it. That will work as your DAC, amp, and providing SBX Pro Studio. You can add an amp later if you'd like.


 
 It's an ASRock Z87 Extreme4 that uses some pretty nice equipment (ALC1195 and 2 onboard amps), supports DTS, and has S/PDIF out.
  
 The Logitechs will be fine off onboard and I feel a discrete card will cause me to either to always have to reach behind the case to switch or suffer noise/loss on front panel. However, running an external DAC/AMP/DAC+AMP off of the S/PDIF output will let me keep positional audio while maintaining better audio.
  
 Thoughts?


----------



## Murder Mike

phillipjfy said:


> It's an ASRock Z87 Extreme4 that uses some pretty nice equipment (ALC1195 and 2 onboard amps), supports DTS, and has S/PDIF out.
> 
> The Logitechs will be fine off onboard and I feel a discrete card will cause me to either to always have to reach behind the case to switch or suffer noise/loss on front panel. However, running an external DAC/AMP/DAC+AMP off of the S/PDIF output will let me keep positional audio while maintaining better audio.
> 
> Thoughts?


 
  
 You can have an internal and still never reach being your case. You change what device is being used in Windows. You don't have positional audio from what it looks like right now, so you'd have to add a sound card either way if you wanted that.


----------



## PhillipJFy

murder mike said:


> You can have an internal and still never reach being your case. You change what device is being used in Windows. You don't have positional audio from what it looks like right now, so you'd have to add a sound card either way if you wanted that.


 
 I thought DTS Connect was their onboard Surround Sound equivalent to Dolby Headphone and the like. Is this incorrect?


----------



## Murder Mike

phillipjfy said:


> I thought DTS Connect was their onboard Surround Sound equivalent to Dolby Headphone and the like. Is this incorrect?


 
 From what I understand DTS Connect is only there to transfer the 5.1 signal, much like Dolby Digital Live.


----------



## PhillipJFy

murder mike said:


> From what I understand DTS Connect is only there to transfer the 5.1 signal, much like Dolby Digital Live.


 
 Regardless of which mobo I choose for my new build as long as it has positional audio of some sort, I can pipe that through S/PDIF to an external unit.
  
 So that spawns two questions. The first is do I need an Amp for my Sennheiser HD558s or is a DAC+onboard alone enough to drive them properly? Second, does anyone know any DACs, Amps, or DAC+AMP combo units that have S/PDIF inputs?


----------



## motorwayne

fegefeuer said:


> Can't listen to this at work so you guys go first:
> 
> http://www.newaudiotechnology.de/produkte/sage-spatial-audio-game-engine/
> 
> ...


 
 Interesting indeed, wonder how is compares in terms of surround verses CMSS etc


----------



## AvroArrow

phillipjfy said:


> Regardless of which mobo I choose for my new build as long as it has positional audio of some sort, I can pipe that through S/PDIF to an external unit.
> 
> So that spawns two questions. The first is do I need an Amp for my Sennheiser HD558s or is a DAC+onboard alone enough to drive them properly? Second, does anyone know any DACs, Amps, or DAC+AMP combo units that have S/PDIF inputs?


 
  
 Audioengine D1 (USB powered) and Fiio E17 (battery powered) both have SPDIF input and should cost less than $150 USD.  There are probably others but these are the ones I own.  I feed the Dolby Headphone output via SPDIF from my soundcard to the D1 to Fiio E09K (amp) to AKG K702.65 for my setup.  And I use the WASAPI drivers for MediaMonkey and foobar2000 for my music so they bypass all the DH/mixer/etc without me messing with the Windows audio output device settings.  Works quite well but I'm looking for another more powerful amp like an Asgard 2 for future use.  I have a pair of Sennheiser HD598 that I ran directly out from the D1 before I got the E09k and they sounded decent.  After I got the E09k and plugged the HD598 into that, they did sound a bit better, but there was a much bigger difference/improvement to my AKG K702.65 than the HD598s going through the E09k amp.


----------



## PhillipJFy

avroarrow said:


> Audioengine D1 (USB powered) and Fiio E17 (battery powered) both have SPDIF input and should cost less than $150 USD.  There are probably others but these are the ones I own.  I feed the Dolby Headphone output via SPDIF from my soundcard to the D1 to Fiio E09K (amp) to AKG K702.65 for my setup.  And I use the WASAPI drivers for MediaMonkey and foobar2000 for my music so they bypass all the DH/mixer/etc without me messing with the Windows audio output device settings.  Works quite well but I'm looking for another more powerful amp like an Asgard 2 for future use.  I have a pair of Sennheiser HD598 that I ran directly out from the D1 before I got the E09k and they sounded decent.  After I got the E09k and plugged the HD598 into that, they did sound a bit better, but there was a much bigger difference/improvement to my AKG K702.65 than the HD598s going through the E09k amp.


 
 AvroArrow,
  
 Do you feel the D1 or E17 is powerful enough to adequately drive HD558s? Which of the two, D1 and E17, was your favorite?


----------



## AvroArrow

phillipjfy said:


> AvroArrow,
> 
> Do you feel the D1 or E17 is powerful enough to adequately drive HD558s? Which of the two, D1 and E17, was your favorite?


 
  
 Well, the D1 is supposedly 100mW @ 32ohm and the E17 is 220mW @ 32ohm (E09k is 900mW @ 32ohm).  The D1 and E17 do sound different since they are using different DAC chips (D1:AKM4396, E17:WM8740).  I wouldn't say either sounded bad, just different.  Keep in mind that I'm still kind of a newbie to this hobby so my impression is not super critical and full of audio buzzwords.    
  
 I prefer the D1 since it's USB powered and I'm not constantly charging/discharging the Li-ion battery in the E17 and burning through its finite charge cycles since my primary use is on the desktop just sitting there.  That being said, the D1 alone is under-driving the HD598 a bit since I did notice an improvement after adding the E09k to the chain.  I could hear/feel a bit more bass impact and the female vocals sounded better (Adele's Rolling in the Deep).  It was a slightly noticeable improvement, but not night and day difference like it was with my AKG K702.65 since the D1 alone was massively underpowering my AKGs.  Powering those from the E09k almost made me wonder if I just got a new pair of headphones they sounded so much better, mostly notably the bass impact/feel.
  
 If you don't need the portability of the E17 I'd say get the D1 and maybe an amp later, like the Fiio E09k, Schiit Magni, Schiit Vali, or JDS O2 if you're on the budget.  The only reason I got the E09k was that it was available at a local store, was on sale, and I could dock it with my E17.  That and importing the Magni/Vali into Canada would almost be double the cost of the E09k.  If I had to buy it all over again from scratch, I'd get the D1 + Schiit Asgard 2 since I want to get the Alpha Dogs in the near future.  I think the Schiit Bifrost w/USB is a bit too pricey otherwise it would be Bifrost + Asgard 2.


----------



## PhillipJFy

avroarrow said:


> Well, the D1 is supposedly 100mW @ 32ohm and the E17 is 220mW @ 32ohm (E09k is 900mW @ 32ohm).  The D1 and E17 do sound different since they are using different DAC chips (D1:AKM4396, E17:WM8740).  I wouldn't say either sounded bad, just different.  Keep in mind that I'm still kind of a newbie to this hobby so my impression is not super critical and full of audio buzzwords.
> 
> I prefer the D1 since it's USB powered and I'm not constantly charging/discharging the Li-ion battery in the E17 and burning through its finite charge cycles since my primary use is on the desktop just sitting there.  That being said, the D1 alone is under-driving the HD598 a bit since I did notice an improvement after adding the E09k to the chain.  I could hear/feel a bit more bass impact and the female vocals sounded better (Adele's Rolling in the Deep).  It was a slightly noticeable improvement, but not night and day difference like it was with my AKG K702.65 since the D1 alone was massively underpowering my AKGs.  Powering those from the E09k almost made me wonder if I just got a new pair of headphones they sounded so much better, mostly notably the bass impact/feel.
> 
> If you don't need the portability of the E17 I'd say get the D1 and maybe an amp later, like the Fiio E09k, Schiit Magni, Schiit Vali, or JDS O2 if you're on the budget.  The only reason I got the E09k was that it was available at a local store, was on sale, and I could dock it with my E17.  That and importing the Magni/Vali into Canada would almost be double the cost of the E09k.  If I had to buy it all over again from scratch, I'd get the D1 + Schiit Asgard 2 since I want to get the Alpha Dogs in the near future.  I think the Schiit Bifrost w/USB is a bit too pricey otherwise it would be Bifrost + Asgard 2.


 
 I wonder if there are any DAC+AMP combo units that have S/PDIF in and can do 50ohm out to adequately drive the HD558s...


----------



## AvroArrow

phillipjfy said:


> I wonder if there are any DAC+AMP combo units that have S/PDIF in and can do 50ohm out to adequately drive the HD558s...


 
  
 There are, they just cost a lot more than $150USD.    Otherwise I would have bought one of those other devices instead.  Audio-GD 11.32 ($299), 15.32 ($235), and Cambridge DacMagic 100 ($299) come to mind.  There are probably others but I'm not that deep into the hobby yet so I can't name anymore off the top of my head.  The D1 itself with the HD598 sounds fine if I hadn't heard it with the E09k, and even then, the improvement is marginal even with the E09k.  In fact I was only using the D1 and flipping between the AKGs and HD598 for 2-3 months before buying the amp.  I actually preferred the HD598s because they sounded better/more fun than my AKGs directly from the D1.     
  
 I personally prefer separate DAC and AMP rather than combo units because it's more modular.  If I have a decent DAC and need more power or want to try a tube amp, then I just need to buy a better amp, and not buy another DAC to go with it.  This is assuming that the DAC/Amp combo you get doesn't have a line-out/unamped output.  The D1 has a line level output and you can buy a Fiio L7 line-out adapter for the E17 to feed another amp.


----------



## PhillipJFy

avroarrow said:


> There are, they just cost a lot more than $150USD.    Otherwise I would have bought one of those other devices instead.  Audio-GD 11.32 ($299), 15.32 ($235), and Cambridge DacMagic 100 ($299) come to mind.  There are probably others but I'm not that deep into the hobby yet so I can't name anymore off the top of my head.  The D1 itself with the HD598 sounds fine if I hadn't heard it with the E09k, and even then, the improvement is marginal even with the E09k.  In fact I was only using the D1 and flipping between the AKGs and HD598 for 2-3 months before buying the amp.  I actually preferred the HD598s because they sounded better/more fun than my AKGs directly from the D1.
> 
> I personally prefer separate DAC and AMP rather than combo units because it's more modular.  If I have a decent DAC and need more power or want to try a tube amp, then I just need to buy a better amp, and not buy another DAC to go with it.  This is assuming that the DAC/Amp combo you get doesn't have a line-out/unamped output.  The D1 has a line level output and you can buy a Fiio L7 line-out adapter for the E17 to feed another amp.


 
 I don't have any problems with using a separate DAC and AMP. Do you know any separate DACs that have an optical in? I wish the Magni/Modi combo supported S/PDIF optical inputs


----------



## Murder Mike

phillipjfy said:


> I don't have any problems with using a separate DAC and AMP. Do you know any separate DACs that have an optical in? I wish the Magni/Modi combo supported S/PDIF optical inputs


 
  
 I guess I still don't know what you're trying to accomplish here. A basic Sound Blaster Z would provide you with SBX Pro Studio surround processing. It will also be your DAC and it has a small build in amp. The HD 558 isn't particularly hard to drive, so start with something like that and upgrade as you see fit. If you get some headphones that require more power, you can add an external amp later and the Z will still be your DAC. It's a much better starting base than motherboard sound.


----------



## PippoXD

Hey guys,
  
 So i searched around for some headphones to play competitively at Lan and came up with these two options. Mad Dogs or Ultrasone Pro900. What would i need to get them to give me great 5.1 and could i get something portable with the same results as an internal sound card? I was thinking CMSS3D but i dont mind dolby headphone.


----------



## MrEleventy

If you're looking for an external soundcard and CMSS3D, Give the Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1 (Surround, not Surround Pro) SB1090 a try. Or go Sound Blaster Omni for SBX Surround. If you're in the US and looking to try the SB1090, give me a PM. I accidentally won 2 on eBay and only needed 1.


----------



## GoldenboyJay

BTW, why not the Surround Pro? What's their differences? I'm also interested.


----------



## MrEleventy

Pro doesn't have CMSS 3D support. It has THX TruStudio Surround.

E: Nameless says that THX is inferior for positioning LINK


----------



## LB Felipe

Is this a great PC audio setup?
  
 Creative Sound Blaster ZxR
 Schiit Vali
 MrSpeakers Alpha Dog (AD002)
 AntLion ModMic 3.0
 ADAM F5
 ADAM F5
 ADAM Desktop Stand (black)
 ADAM Desktop Stand (black)
 Monoprice 6.35mm Stereo Plug to 3.5mm Stereo Jack (7139)
 Monoprice 6.35mm Stereo Plug to 3.5mm Stereo Jack (7139)
 Monoprice 3.5mm Stereo Plug/2 RCA Plug (665)
 Monoprice RCA Plug/Plug M/M (654)
 Monoprice RCA Plug/Plug M/M (654)
  
 Please suggest changes or others.


----------



## PippoXD

I'm not from the US or i would take your offer 
  
 I still have a question, if i have two soundcards that have CMSS 3D will they output the same, directionality wise?
  
 Btw, i just saw a youtube video from Tek Syndicate saying i dont need a soundcard for anything... If that is the case how do they get the surround?


----------



## GoldenboyJay

Then you won't get that surround 3D effect... I've just learned it here.


----------



## MrEleventy

The game will output from only one of them, usually the defaulted one in Windows. I don't know if you can choose it in game but the games that I've played, you can't.


----------



## MrEleventy

There's software surround like razer surround, I tried it and found it to be more of a hassle than it's worth. (I tried it free )


----------



## chicolom

pippoxd said:


> Btw, i just saw a youtube video from Tek Syndicate saying i dont need a soundcard for anything... If that is the case how do they get the surround?


 
  
 The Tek Syndicate video sort of glossed over the whole point of soundcards, which is that you need a soundcard if you want surround sound (I'm not counting Razor's free surround).
  
 I ranted about some problems with that video a while ago:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/593050/the-nameless-guide-to-pc-gaming-audio-with-binaural-headphone-surround-sound/2220#post_10080022


----------



## Murder Mike

pippoxd said:


> Btw, i just saw a youtube video from Tek Syndicate saying i dont need a soundcard for anything... If that is the case how do they get the surround?


 
 They're in the minority in that opinion. They don't get any surround sound. That video has been torn apart here, on OCN, and other popular forums where computer audio is discussed.


----------



## LB Felipe

Are those 1/4" male to 3.5mm female adapters bundled with ZXR compatible with any 3.5mm cable like that one included in the bundle, or even then a, e.g., Monoprice 665?
  
 I ask for that because those adapters have a screw to plug itself onto 3.5mm plug from the ACM.
  
 So are they?


----------



## benbenkr

chicolom said:


> The Tek Syndicate video sort of glossed over the whole point of soundcards, which is that you need a soundcard if you want surround sound (I'm not counting Razor's free surround).
> 
> I ranted about some problems with that video a while ago:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/593050/the-nameless-guide-to-pc-gaming-audio-with-binaural-headphone-surround-sound/2220#post_10080022


 
  
 I'm late reading your rant chico, but damn, you nail'd it. Didn't know Tek Syndicate made a video like that, guess smartasses will always be smartasses after all.


----------



## PippoXD

mreleventy said:


> The game will output from only one of them, usually the defaulted one in Windows. I don't know if you can choose it in game but the games that I've played, you can't.


 
  Not what i meant, I meant do all cards that have CMSS 3D perform it the same way?


----------



## MrEleventy

pippoxd said:


> Not what i meant, I meant do all cards that have CMSS 3D perform it the same way?


It should perfom the same, yes. Sound quality might vary from card to card depending on the dac chipset used, I don't know enough about the different card variations. Also, I output everything to an external DAC & amp, NFB-12, so I can't comment on the quality of the Surround 5.1's output either. lol


----------



## PippoXD

Oh, ok, in that case, for gaming surround purposes, it doesnt really matter what external card i buy, as long as it has CMSS3D, am i correct in assuming this?
  
 I will be getting Ultrasone Pro900 or Mad Dog. However i dont know much about driving headsets and that stuff, pro 900 have 40 ohm impedence and the Mad Dog i believe have 50 from some reviews i saw (the website doesn't say how much). With this in mind, are there restrictions i should be aware of when choosing my external sound card with CMSS 3D?


----------



## MrEleventy

pippoxd said:


> Oh, ok, in that case, for gaming surround purposes, it doesnt really matter what external card i buy, as long as it has CMSS3D, am i correct in assuming this?
> 
> I will be getting Ultrasone Pro900 or Mad Dog. However i dont know much about driving headsets and that stuff, pro 900 have 40 ohm impedence and the Mad Dog i believe have 50 from some reviews i saw (the website doesn't say how much). With this in mind, are there restrictions i should be aware of when choosing my external sound card with CMSS 3D?


Correct. Been only on this thread a short time but the typical recommendation seems to be, "buy cheapest card you can find with desired surround sound effect, output to dac and or amp". Worked for me. I love the positional on CMSS-3D and everything doesn't sound tinny or spacious hall sounding.

E: The card should be able to handle low ohm HPs well enough w/o a need for an amp. I'd say that anything under 100ohms should be fine. If you venture past that, look for a inexpensive amp like a magni/vali/O2/E09k for a boost.


----------



## PippoXD

Hmm, i didn't know i needed a dac or amp, what will happen if i dont get these? Just something like the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround non-pro + the headphones, will i not have enough volume or what is it about?


----------



## MrEleventy

I don't think you'll need them with the hps you've picked out, I did because my hps are harder to power. just get the card and hps, if you find that they don't get loud enough, then look into an amp.

E: I think the dac recommendations are usually for ppl asking for a setup for gaming and music.


----------



## Murder Mike

pippoxd said:


> Hmm, i didn't know i needed a dac or amp, what will happen if i dont get these? Just something like the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround non-pro + the headphones, will i not have enough volume or what is it about?


 
 IIRC the Mad Dogs benefit greatly from an amp. I don't know much about the specifics though, so I would head over to that thread and ask around there.


----------



## MrEleventy

murder mike said:


> IIRC the Mad Dogs benefit greatly from an amp. I don't know much about the specifics though, so I would head over to that thread and ask around there.




+1, they're orthos so they'll benefit with more current for music but maybe overkill for just gaming purposes. I think it's fine If it gets loud enough.


----------



## PippoXD

thank you guys, I just posted something on the mad dog thread but im pretty sure im not getting an amp or dac atm, i might just take your advice and test it without it and if its not loud enough ill get something then. Btw, should i only get the amp or dac if the volume isnt high enough or are there other reasons to get them for my purposes?


----------



## MrEleventy

Dac would be for better audio processing, typically for music listening purposes while amps would address the volume issue.


----------



## Fegefeuer

THIEF is coming out in less than a week. Who of you has a True Audio compatible AMD card?


----------



## randir14

Does anyone with a Creative Titanium HD know where the equalizer is? I installed one today and the only thing I can find are the bass and treble sliders under the Windows headphone properties. Even my old $20 Xonar DG had an equalizer in its software (when using the Unified drivers, anyway). I'm using Windows 8 with the new drivers that were released by Creative this month.


----------



## SaLX

randir14 said:


> Does anyone with a Creative Titanium HD know where the equalizer is? I installed one today and the only thing I can find are the bass and treble sliders under the Windows headphone properties. Even my old $20 Xonar DG had an equalizer in its software (when using the Unified drivers, anyway). I'm using Windows 8 with the new drivers that were released by Creative this month.


 
 You ought to have an extensive Creative control panel installed. Look in your programs under Start > All Programs > Creative.. it may have failed to autostart. If not, then do a good clean and reinstall.


----------



## randir14

salx said:


> You ought to have an extensive Creative control panel installed. Look in your programs under Start > All Programs > Creative.. it may have failed to autostart. If not, then do a good clean and reinstall.


 
  
 This is what I have: http://i.imgur.com/xsk45e1.jpg
  
 I've been through all the tabs and different modes and I cant find an equalizer anywhere.


----------



## SaLX

You ought to have this (there's a equaliser in there):
  

  
 Uninstall, clean and reinstall. I've been there before. You'll get there.


----------



## randir14

Still no luck. However I decided to test the Pax drivers, and it comes with something called Creative Console Launcher which looks like the same thing that you posted, and includes an equalizer. I wonder if Creative forgot to include it in the new drivers they released this month.


----------



## SaLX

Rand... honestly... the control panel _is_ there (or will be there if you do as I indicated). I can't hand hold for you, but I've seen this problem before personally. Fart around and you'll fix it.
  
 It's got zero to do with PAX drivers or any other 3rd party efforts. Creative Console Launcher is what you want mate and it comes with the vanilla drivers.


----------



## randir14

Thanks for your help, I finally figured it out. On the Titanium HD's support page Creative Console Launcher was listed under "applications" which allowed me to download it separately. Now I'm able to use the official driver and the console launcher.


----------



## LB Felipe

MrSpeakers Alpha Dog (AD002) <- Schiit Vali <- bundled w/ ZXR stereo RCA male to stereo 3.5mm male cable <- bundled w/ ZXR 3.5mm jack to 6.35mm plug adapter <- Creative Sound Blaster ZxR
  
 AntLion ModMic 3.0 <- bundled w/ ZXR 3.5mm jack to 6.35mm plug adapter <- Creative Sound Blaster ZxR
  
 2 x ADAM F5 w/ Desktop Stands <- Monoprice 654s <- Creative Sound Blaster ZxR
  
 Come on guys, is there some way to go wrong with that?

 Have you any regard?
  
 For the F5s, do you recommend anything as volume control or preamp?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## kidboy17

Hello everyone, I was told I should post in this thread as I might be able to get better help regarding about what sound card I should get if I were to get either the Philips Fidelio X1 or the Sennheiser HD 598 and which headphones out of the two would be better for my needs.
  
 I would be using these headphones for listening to video game music, like what is played on GFTO Awesomeness, being immersed in games like Skyrim, playing emulators like N64 and playstation, watching Netflix and sometimes playing FPSs like Red Orchestra 2/ Rising Storm.


----------



## Slayn

So having read the original post, would the best performance for gaming and music be getting a cheap sound card with positional audio, and then an external DAC, using the sound card for positional audio, but the DAC as... well, a DAC?

 So for instance, I have a cheap pair of Samson SR-850's and an older sound card, one of the Titanium ones, it has CMSS-3D. Should I get a DAC and use the sound card to output to it? Would I get anything? Did I even read that correctly?


----------



## PhillipJFy

slayn said:


> So having read the original post, would the best performance for gaming and music be getting a cheap sound card with positional audio, and then an external DAC, using the sound card for positional audio, but the DAC as... well, a DAC?
> 
> So for instance, I have a cheap pair of Samson SR-850's and an older sound card, one of the Titanium ones, it has CMSS-3D. Should I get a DAC and use the sound card to output to it? Would I get anything? Did I even read that correctly?


 
 I have been trying to wrap my head around this as well. I think what you're doing is getting a recording device to listen to your sound card, then sending that audio stream to your USB connected DAC. This retains positional audio over a USB connection.
  
 I think that is the theory behind it...still a bit fuzzy how how you actually get that to work right though...anyone have a picture guide? (kind of joking but kind of serious)
  
 Also, could this theoretically work with something like Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 software suite?


----------



## PurpleAngel

slayn said:


> So having read the original post, would the best performance for gaming and music be getting a cheap sound card with positional audio, and then an external DAC, using the sound card for positional audio, but the DAC as... well, a DAC?
> 
> So for instance, I have a cheap pair of Samson SR-850's and an older sound card, one of the Titanium ones, it has CMSS-3D. Should I get a DAC and use the sound card to output to it? Would I get anything? Did I even read that correctly?


 
 Is it the Titanium HD or other Titanium sound card?
  
 Creative Labs Sound Blaster Z sound card.
 Comes with the CS4398 DAC chip and a decent headphone amplifier.
 Newegg is selling them for $57 (free shipping).
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102054
  
 Might consider selling off the SR850 and put all your "audio" budget for better headphones.
 (The Samson SR850 are good headphones, for it price range)


----------



## Slayn

purpleangel said:


> Is it the Titanium HD or other Titanium sound card?
> 
> Creative Labs Sound Blaster Z sound card.
> Comes with the CS4398 DAC chip and a decent headphone amplifier.
> ...


 
 http://us.store.creative.com/Creative-Sound-Blaster-XFi-Titanium-Fatal1ty/M/B0018EFGTM.htm
  
 It is this one right here. Bought it long ago, when Circuit City was still a thing. 
  
 I got the SR-850 because like you said, because it was recommended as a good budget set. I think most of what I have read and asked, the general consensus seems to be to replace those at some point.
  
 Even then, my question still stands though... so gaming is my main focus. I don't do anything competitive, but I love the whole 3d audio thing. It just sounds very atmospheric when I am playing a single player game, and it makes you feel like you are right there in the action. I do play BF4 but for fun way more than competition. I use my computer for everything between games, music, movies, Netflix, etc.
  
 So having said that, what is the best set up for both gaming and crisp, clear sound? I am at the point where I don't mind spending a few hundred for a good set up. I went cheap with the SR-850's and want to step it up. I noticed in the original post that he mentions using the sound card for DSP and then using an external DAC for better audio quality, so this is the best way to set it up?


----------



## Murder Mike

slayn said:


> So having said that, what is the best set up for both gaming and crisp, clear sound? I am at the point where I don't mind spending a few hundred for a good set up. I went cheap with the SR-850's and want to step it up. I noticed in the original post that he mentions using the sound card for DSP and then using an external DAC for better audio quality, so this is the best way to set it up?


 
  
 There are a few ways to do it. 
  
 The most basic - Get a sound card with surround processing and use the headphone out on that. This can vary from ok to great depending on how much you decide to spend on a sound card. The lower end ones like the DG/DGX/Titanium/Z/etc will have everything you need to get started with a basic set of headphones that don't need much amping. If you want to spend more on something like the ZXR or Essence STX, they will have a better DAC and even an amp build in to run some higher end headphones without needing anything external.
  
 Upgraded - Get a sound card with your preferred surround processing and then use the DAC build into that and the RCA outs to feed into a discrete amp. This will power any headphone you would like, but the DAC might not be as nice, depending on the sound card you are using. Using the ZXR or Essence STX in this fashion wastes the on board amp on the card. 
  
 High end - Get a sound card with your preferred surround processing and then use the optical out to feed the signal to a discrete DAC and then have that DAC being fed into an amp (or get a combo unit like the NFB 15.32 or 11.32). This allows you the most freedom and you have access to a wide range of DACs and amps. You can also run with the basic sound cards as all you will be using on it is the optical out to feed into the DAC.


----------



## PhillipJFy

murder mike said:


> There are a few ways to do it.
> 
> The most basic - Get a sound card with surround processing and use the headphone out on that. This can vary from ok to great depending on how much you decide to spend on a sound card. The lower end ones like the DG/DGX/Titanium/Z/etc will have everything you need to get started with a basic set of headphones that don't need much amping. If you want to spend more on something like the ZXR or Essence STX, they will have a better DAC and even an amp build in to run some higher end headphones without needing anything external.
> 
> ...


 
 Would the SniperCzar method of routing your processed audio to a USB connected DAC be viable as well? From my own researching DAC/Amps that support optical are tough to find without putting down at least $300.


----------



## PippoXD

Hi guys,
  
 I ordered my Mad Dog's yesterday and i was going to order a Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1 non-pro but i cant find it or i find it and it turns out to be the pro version. I'm guessing the product is old and companies in portugal just don't care. I was going to order this one because it uses CMSS 3D, it is external and i think its the only one with these attributes. I was also going to get the Magni.
  
 Is there an alternative to drive the Mad Dog's that is only the external sound card maybe with a better built-in amp? Atm i dont even care if it is DH or CMSS 3D, as long as it is one of them, from my research those are the best to play competitively and pretty much match each other.
  
 So.. Either an external sound card that can drive the mad dog's with CMSS3D or DH
 or
 an external sound card with cmss3d or dh paired up with an amp like the Magni(recommended to me by Dan aka Mr Speakers)
  
 Thanks


----------



## MrEleventy

phillipjfy said:


> Would the SniperCzar method of routing your processed audio to a USB connected DAC be viable as well? From my own researching DAC/Amps that support optical are tough to find without putting down at least $300.


Not really. If you search around the FS forums, you can find some decent deals. Even new things like the Maverick Audio D1 is around 250 shipped and that takes optical in. Or you can buy a decent dac w/ a optical in and tack on an amp. SMSL Dac + magni/vali/o2/E09K/whatever would only set you back around 200.

E: btw, SniperCzar method does work, the con is the sound quality isn't as good.


----------



## Murder Mike

phillipjfy said:


> Would the SniperCzar method of routing your processed audio to a USB connected DAC be viable as well? From my own researching DAC/Amps that support optical are tough to find without putting down at least $300.


 
  
 Not that I'm aware of, but I could be wrong. There's a reason I labeled it as the high end. A DAC with optical in and a noticeably better chip (than what's on the soundcard) will probably cost around $100+. The amp will be another $100+. You could get something cheap like the D03K, but it's not going to be much better than what is already on the sound card. In that situation. Option two would be the right choice.


----------



## kidboy17

kidboy17 said:


> Hello everyone, I was told I should post in this thread as I might be able to get better help regarding about what sound card I should get if I were to get either the Philips Fidelio X1 or the Sennheiser HD 598 and which headphones out of the two would be better for my needs.
> 
> I would be using these headphones for listening to video game music, like what is played on GFTO Awesomeness, being immersed in games like Skyrim, playing emulators like N64 and playstation, watching Netflix and sometimes playing FPSs like Red Orchestra 2/ Rising Storm.


 
 So I narrowed my sound card choice to either the Creative Sound Blaster ZxR (Uses CMSS 3D) or the ASUS Xonar Essence STX (Uses Dolby) and I will be using it with the Philips Fidelio X1. Which sound card would you guys suggest? I will not be using an amp, just a sound card.


----------



## motorwayne

kidboy17 said:


> So I narrowed my sound card choice to either the Creative Sound Blaster ZxR (Uses CMSS 3D) or the ASUS Xonar Essence STX (Uses Dolby) and I will be using it with the Philips Fidelio X1. Which sound card would you guys suggest? I will not be using an amp, just a sound card.


 
 I think it is the X-Fi that uses CMSS, the ZX-R uses SBX pro studio.


----------



## Murder Mike

kidboy17 said:


> So I narrowed my sound card choice to either the Creative Sound Blaster ZxR (Uses CMSS 3D) or the ASUS Xonar Essence STX (Uses Dolby) and I will be using it with the Philips Fidelio X1. Which sound card would you guys suggest? I will not be using an amp, just a sound card.


 
  
 The ZXR uses SBX Pro Studio. Listen to some videos on youtube to see which one you like better. I think there are some links in MLE's thread.


----------



## kidboy17

murder mike said:


> The ZXR uses SBX Pro Studio. Listen to some videos on youtube to see which one you like better. I think there are some links in MLE's thread.


 
 I can't listen to anything. I don't have any headphones, speakers or cables that connect sound to my LCD monitor.


----------



## Murder Mike

kidboy17 said:


> I can't listen to anything. I don't have any headphones, speakers or cables that connect sound to my LCD monitor.


 
  
 Well, that certainly is a new kind of hell. Buy the X1s and use your onboard sound to test them and then pick a card maybe? That's the best way to do it IMO.


----------



## kidboy17

murder mike said:


> Well, that certainly is a new kind of hell. Buy the X1s and use your onboard sound to test them and then pick a card maybe? That's the best way to do it IMO.


 
 I heard using the onboard sound with the X1s sounds pretty bad ( i could be wrong) so would that impede my judgement on picking a card by listening to the Youtube videos? I'm new to this stuff, sorry.


----------



## Slayn

murder mike said:


> High end - Get a sound card with your preferred surround processing and then use the optical out to feed the signal to a discrete DAC and then have that DAC being fed into an amp (or get a combo unit like the NFB 15.32 or 11.32). This allows you the most freedom and you have access to a wide range of DACs and amps. You can also run with the basic sound cards as all you will be using on it is the optical out to feed into the DAC.


 
  
 Ok so maybe this is what I am unclear about...
  
 "*Method for using sound card as DSP to output to any audio device* (Click to hide)
  Note that this only works in Windows 7. Vista and prior don't have the required feature.
  
 1. Right click on your volume tray in Windows 7 and select "Recording devices"
 2. Select "What U Hear" and click "Properties" (cringe inducing grammar there Creative)
 [Note - you do NOT have to set this as the default recording device]
 3. Select the "Listen" tab and check the box marked "Listen to this device"
 4. Under the drop down marked "Playback through this device:" select your desired DAC
 5. Make sure "Continue running when on battery power" is selected as a software passthrough should have no effect whatsoever on your battery life
 6. Select the "Levels" tab and set it to something comfortable, as the volume control for the Creative card's standard output will have no effect on the volume of the software recording device.
 7. Enjoy listening to CMSS-3D, freed from the noisy and inferior hardware confines of your internal soundcard!"
  
 So why would I need optical out from the sound card if I can use this method? Isn't optical limited anyway? Wouldn't I have to use something like Dolby Live! to compress the data to get 3d audio with optical?
  
 Also you mentioned a combo unit and listed 2. Is it better to get a combo dac/amp or just buy two devices? I didn't even think of adding an amp to any of this, forgot about that part. Kind of confused at this point because I am having to take in to consideration and do research on which:

 Sound card
 headphones
 DAC
 amp
  
 And what will work best with what. I am reading the thread on gaming headphone recommendations and there are so many, probably will pick up a Fidelio X1 or the DT990 Pro. They look good for what I want to spend. Then I just need to figure out the rest.


----------



## Nominiel

I'm using the Asus Xonar xense and the Logitech G930 via USB (a 7.1 headset). So, if I wanted to use the ASUS DSP for my headset and done those steps... BUT... one question prevails... Do I need to switch on 7.1 Dolby Headphone at the Logitech Gaming Software (means the driver for the headset), or only in the Xonar Xense Audio Center?
  
 btw... awesome guide!


----------



## MrEleventy

slayn said:


> Ok so maybe this is what I am unclear about...
> 
> So why would I need optical out from the sound card if I can use this method? Isn't optical limited anyway? Wouldn't I have to use something like Dolby Live! to compress the data to get 3d audio with optical?






> -Myth: Sound card DSP effects for gaming do not carry through S/PDIF.
> -Fact: They do go through S/PDIF. I've tested it myself with RightMark 3DSound's positional audio test (uses DirectSound3D, so be sure to point ALchemy or other wrappers to the installation directory). This makes the combination of a sound card as a DSP and an external DAC with S/PDIF input a plausible upgrade option, as the sound card's lesser analog circuitry is still bypassed.
> 
> -Myth: S/PDIF (coaxial/optical digital audio) cannot do surround sound!
> ...


 Optical out is the "cleaner" less processed option. Most of the time, unless you paid for a high end sound card, the external DAC will be better sound quality wise.




slayn said:


> Also you mentioned a combo unit and listed 2. Is it better to get a combo dac/amp or just buy two devices? I didn't even think of adding an amp to any of this, forgot about that part. Kind of confused at this point because I am having to take in to consideration and do research on which:
> 
> Sound card
> headphones
> ...


Combo units are convenient but isn't as upgrade friendly. The modular approach allows for a better upgrade path. But if you don't plan on upgrading, then the combo units are better.


----------



## CFGamescape

In a previous post in this thread, I asked for some external options. I was leaning towards getting the Asus Xonar U7, but wanted to see what other options I had.
  
 The motherboard I'm getting has an optical out. It's the Asus Maximus VI GENE. It looks like I could use the optical out on the motherboard to an amp, but there aren't that many amps that have an optical in (that I know of, which is limited). I have a Fiio E17, so I'm wondering if I could pair this with the Fiio E09K and still retain the sound processing of my mobo, which is advertised to be geared for gaming. I'm presuming that the mobo processing would supersede the E17 processing, but I'm just guessing.
  
 Any thoughts to the above setup?
  
 Any recommendations for an amp that has an optical in that's reasonably priced (sub $200).


----------



## Murder Mike

cfgamescape said:


> In a previous post in this thread, I asked for some external options. I was leaning towards getting the Asus Xonar U7, but wanted to see what other options I had.
> 
> The motherboard I'm getting has an optical out. It's the Asus Maximus VI GENE. It looks like I could use the optical out on the motherboard to an amp, but there aren't that many amps that have an optical in (that I know of, which is limited). I have a Fiio E17, so I'm wondering if I could pair this with the Fiio E09K and still retain the sound processing of my mobo, which is advertised to be geared for gaming. I'm presuming that the mobo processing would supersede the E17 processing, but I'm just guessing.
> 
> ...


 
  
 First of all, no amp is going to have an optical input as optical is a digital signal and would need to be converted to analog before it could be amplified. Some DACs have optical inputs. You could AMP directly out of the motherboard. Better yet, since you have an E17, you can connect that via optical as long as your motherboard can output a 2 channel signal. You could easily add a E09K of whatever amp you want after that.


----------



## CFGamescape

murder mike said:


> First of all, no amp is going to have an optical input as optical is a digital signal and would need to be converted to analog before it could be amplified. Some DACs have optical inputs. You could AMP directly out of the motherboard. Better yet, since you have an E17, you can connect that via optical as long as your motherboard can output a 2 channel signal. You could easily add a E09K of whatever amp you want after that.


 
  
 Ah, thanks for the correction. That makes sense to me (noob).
  
 I believe the motherboard can output a 2-channel signal, but I'm not certain. The onboard audio features seem decent enough to give it a try.
  
 Or, I can just stick with my original intention of getting the U7.


----------



## Murder Mike

cfgamescape said:


> Or, I can just stick with my original intention of getting the U7.


 
  
 I'd give the on-board a try first. What's the point in getting a motherboard like that if you don't give it a fair shake? You can adapt from there.


----------



## roguegeek

nominiel said:


> I'm using the Asus Xonar xense and the Logitech G930 via USB (a 7.1 headset). So, if I wanted to use the ASUS DSP for my headset and done those steps... BUT... one question prevails... Do I need to switch on 7.1 Dolby Headphone at the Logitech Gaming Software (means the driver for the headset), or only in the Xonar Xense Audio Center?
> 
> btw... awesome guide!


 
 The Logitech G930 is going through USB and is using its own drivers which means it is acting like a stand-alone sound card. This means you aren't using the Xonar card for anything at all. If you want to use any of the features of the Xense, you need to actually have your headphones going through that card, which means no USB headset will work.


----------



## MrEleventy

roguegeek said:


> The Logitech G930 is going through USB and is using its own drivers which means it is acting like a stand-alone sound card. This means you aren't using the Xonar card for anything at all. If you want to use any of the features of the Xense, you need to actually have your headphones going through that card, which means no USB headset will work.


 Maybe output via stereo mix w/ the sniper method? Might work or might fail spectacularly.


----------



## Nominiel

yeah, did work
  
 just wanted to know if I need to switch surround-mode on
 nope... didn't need to... nasty reverb in games...
  
 thus: works fine by stereo mix/wave listen mode


----------



## NamelessPFG

fegefeuer said:


> THIEF is coming out in less than a week. Who of you has a True Audio compatible AMD card?


 
  
 Well, now it's out, and they defied my expectations...of how much worse it could get.
  
 They butchered the gameplay! They butchered the mythos! And now, it's confirmed for full-on DmC in terms of painfully edgy writing!
  

  
 Sorry, guys, but unless I get this one for free, any AstoundSound evaluation sans TrueAudio DSP will have to wait. That's just not worth it, no way.


----------



## Slayn

mreleventy said:


> Optical out is the "cleaner" less processed option. Most of the time, unless you paid for a high end sound card, the external DAC will be better sound quality wise.
> Combo units are convenient but isn't as upgrade friendly. The modular approach allows for a better upgrade path. But if you don't plan on upgrading, then the combo units are better.


 
  
 I think I am almost done with all my research...
  
 So lets say that I am going to go with a pair of Phillips Fidelio X1's or the DT990s.... what is going to be my best course of action? Keep my sound card, get a better one, add in a dac, just use the dac with the sound card? I would say at minimum it should require an amp, especially for the DT990s. From what I can gather:
  
 Use my current sound card, optical out to a DAC with optical in
 DAC out to AMP
 AMP to headphones
  
 Would this be the best? And like I asked earlier, would optical out from the sound card really be better than the outputting method to a USB DAC? I am just worried because I know that optical out from the sound card with surround sound, as far as I remember, then requires use of something like Dolby Live! unless I am quite mistaken.
  
 http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-digital-live.html
  
 I know I used to use Dolby Live! with my receiver, but that was long ago. Not sure if Dolby Live! is required if using CMSS-3D or what. Gets kind of confusing with all this hardware and software.


----------



## NamelessPFG

slayn said:


> I think I am almost done with all my research...
> 
> So lets say that I am going to go with a pair of Phillips Fidelio X1's or the DT990s.... what is going to be my best course of action? Keep my sound card, get a better one, add in a dac, just use the dac with the sound card? I would say at minimum it should require an amp, especially for the DT990s. From what I can gather:
> 
> ...


 
  
 You're confusing requirements for getting virtual surround out of console games (ala Mad Lust Envy's thread) with the requirements for PC games.
  
 For PC games, you DON'T NEED Dolby Digital or DTS encoding at all; it can already pre-mix it into CMSS-3D Headphone/Dolby Headphone/SBX Pro Surround/etc. before piping the processed two-channel stream out through S/PDIF (or through Stereo Mix/"What U Hear") and into an external DAC.
  
 The only reason I'd see for anyone possibly wanting to do that is to have an X-Fi card pipe Dolby Digital into an external Dolby Headphone processor should they like that tech better. (I happen to prefer CMSS-3D Headphone, so I don't see the point, and buying a C-Media card from Asus or HT Omega would be a much more straightforward way to get Dolby Headphone.)


----------



## Slayn

Ok thank you, I was getting confused. I know that I used to use Dolby Live! when I had a receiver many years ago before HDMI. It used to have to take the uncompressed audio from a game, convert it to Dolby surround sound, and send it via the optical audio to the receiver. I guess it makes sense that headphones would not require this with CMSS-3D.
  
 So if I go from my internal sound card to a DAC with the optical, what exactly does that do? Just reduces line noise? Wouldn't I only do that if I had problems in the first place? How much of a difference would it make? I tried looking up information on the output of the sound card, not much is mentioned of headphone amplification, so I would assume it would require some sort of external amp to power anything good.
  
 Lets say I am deciding between the X1 or the DT990... so I can PROBABLY keep the current sound card. I would just need an amp and MAYBE a DAC, if you think the difference is that big. Is there that much of a difference between the X1 and DT990 250ohm Pro in reference to amps? The X1 seems better for gaming slightly, but there is approximately a $100 difference in price. I saw the X1 on sale on Amazon in January for $150, too bad I didn't pick that up...
  
 Edit: So apparently my x-fi card does NOT have headphone amplification. Not sure how much the X1 needs, but apparently it does pretty well unamped. I was looking at maybe getting a new sound card with a better built in amp, but apparently Creative moved from cmss-3d to sbx, which people say is inferior to cmss-3d. This makes it even more complicated on what I need to purchase


----------



## motorwayne

slayn said:


> Ok thank you, I was getting confused. I know that I used to use Dolby Live! when I had a receiver many years ago before HDMI. It used to have to take the uncompressed audio from a game, convert it to Dolby surround sound, and send it via the optical audio to the receiver. I guess it makes sense that headphones would not require this with CMSS-3D.
> 
> So if I go from my internal sound card to a DAC with the optical, what exactly does that do? Just reduces line noise? Wouldn't I only do that if I had problems in the first place? How much of a difference would it make? I tried looking up information on the output of the sound card, not much is mentioned of headphone amplification, so I would assume it would require some sort of external amp to power anything good.
> 
> ...


 
 You can still buy the X-Fi Titanium HD on amazon..that is what I did and tossed the ZX-R card.


----------



## Slayn

motorwayne said:


> You can still buy the X-Fi Titanium HD on amazon..that is what I did and tossed the ZX-R card.


 
  
 That has headphone amplification, but does not have cmss3d, correct? From what people say the newer 3d technology, SBX or something, isn't quite as good.


----------



## kidboy17

namelesspfg said:


> (I happen to prefer CMSS-3D Headphone, so I don't see the point, and buying a C-Media card from Asus or HT Omega would be a much more straightforward way to get Dolby Headphone.)


 
 What are your reasons for preferring CMSS-3D over Dolby?


----------



## Slayn

I just had a revelation... I have an Onkyo TX-SR606, wouldn't that be suitable? I originally bought it because it had analog inputs, so I could go straight from the sound card to the receiver and get full 7.1 in games. I don't use it anymore because I've moved from full speakers to headphones. Couldn't I just connect my computer to my receiver and use that? I would assume it would be able to amp up most headphones no problem and that the DAC is probably at least better than an internal sound card. What would be the best way to ouput to the receiver for use with cmss-3d? And would this even be a good idea? Would save me money not having to buy a dac/amp.


----------



## NamelessPFG

slayn said:


> That has headphone amplification, but does not have cmss3d, correct? From what people say the newer 3d technology, SBX or something, isn't quite as good.


 
  
 You got it mixed up again. SBX Pro Surround is on the newer Z-series cards; the X-Fi Titanium HD uses CMSS-3D Headphone in Game Mode and THX TruStudio Surround in Entertainment Mode.
  
 If headphone amplification is really that big of a deal to you, I'd suggest budgeting for an external amp.
  


kidboy17 said:


> What are your reasons for preferring CMSS-3D over Dolby?


 
  
 It just sounds better in terms of positional audio cues to me, particularly in DirectSound3D/OpenAL-enabled games where you get a full 3D soundscape instead of just virtual 7.1.
  
 This isn't to say Dolby Headphone is a bad technology by any means - I keep the SU-DH1 around for console gaming, after all - but having compared the two directly (using my X-Fi cards and the SU-DH1 itself as the DAC for both instances), I find that CMSS-3D gives me a positional edge.


----------



## roguegeek

kidboy17 said:


> What are your reasons for preferring CMSS-3D over Dolby?



When I was choosing between the X-Fi Titanium HD and Xonar STX more than a year ago, the question I wanted to answer was simply CMSS-3D or Dolby Headphone. When I got to compare side by side, I noticed a slight advantage with CMSS-3D when it came to separation and soundstage depth. Since my focus was on competitive FPS gaming, that made it very easy to go with the X-Fi card with CMSS-3D. That being said, I wouldn't have been unhappy with the STX and Dolby Headphone.


----------



## Slayn

Yeah I am doing all this research and getting a bit muddled....
  
 I think my plan is wait for a good price on the Phillips, they seem good. Try it with my current sound card. Don't like it? I'll try to hook up my Onkyo via toslink. Don't like that? Will figure out a good amp/dac. It should work fine with an Onkyo receiver though correct? I am correct in my assumption that it should be an acceptable DAC/amp for what I need? And using the soundcard to output via toslink is acceptable?


----------



## kidboy17

namelesspfg said:


> It just sounds better in terms of positional audio cues to me, particularly in DirectSound3D/OpenAL-enabled games where you get a full 3D soundscape instead of just virtual 7.1.
> 
> This isn't to say Dolby Headphone is a bad technology by any means - I keep the SU-DH1 around for console gaming, after all - but having compared the two directly (using my X-Fi cards and the SU-DH1 itself as the DAC for both instances), I find that CMSS-3D gives me a positional edge.


 
  
  


roguegeek said:


> When I was choosing between the X-Fi Titanium HD and Xonar STX more than a year ago, the question I wanted to answer was simply CMSS-3D or Dolby Headphone. When I got to compare side by side, I noticed a slight advantage with CMSS-3D when it came to separation and soundstage depth. Since my focus was on competitive FPS gaming, that made it very easy to go with the X-Fi card with CMSS-3D. That being said, I wouldn't have been unhappy with the STX and Dolby Headphone.


 
 It sounds like both of you use the CMSS-3D for competitive gaming like FPS. Should I go with that if I was planning on being immersed in my games and had less focus on FPSs? And what card would you guys suggest if I was using the Philips Fidelio X1 with no dedicated amp?


----------



## motorwayne

kidboy17 said:


> It sounds like both of you use the CMSS-3D for competitive gaming like FPS. Should I go with that if I was planning on being immersed in my games and had less focus on FPSs? And what card would you guys suggest if I was using the Philips Fidelio X1 with no dedicated amp?


 
 I have tried the X1's with the X-Fi HD and it ran well, plenty rowdy!


----------



## roguegeek

kidboy17 said:


> It sounds like both of you use the CMSS-3D for competitive gaming like FPS. Should I go with that if I was planning on being immersed in my games and had less focus on FPSs? And what card would you guys suggest if I was using the Philips Fidelio X1 with no dedicated amp?


 
 I honestly feel like you can't make a bad decision no matter what type of gaming you do as they are both plenty capable. Both the X-Fi Titanium HD and Xonar STX were made for headphones, but the STX has a headphone amp on board (granted, it's probably not very good). The good news is the X1 is efficient enough to run without an amp, so just get what's more cost effective for you.


----------



## kidboy17

roguegeek said:


> I honestly feel like you can't make a bad decision no matter what type of gaming you do as they are both plenty capable. Both the X-Fi Titanium HD and Xonar STX were made for headphones, but the STX has a headphone amp on board (granted, it's probably not very good). The good news is the X1 is efficient enough to run without an amp, so just get what's more cost effective for you.


 
 I hear people talking about the X-Fi Titanium HD a lot. Is it better than the Sound Blaster ZxR? The price difference is big, about $70 bucks more for the ZxR. The price difference from the Titanium HD to the STX is only $30 bucks more for STX.
  
 I'm sorry for bugging you guys and asking so many questions I just don't want to get a sound card and have buyers remorse. I really really appreciate all the feedback.


----------



## motorwayne

kidboy17 said:


> I hear people talking about the X-Fi Titanium HD a lot. Is it better than the Sound Blaster ZxR? The price difference is big, about $70 bucks more for the ZxR. The price difference from the Titanium HD to the STX is only $30 bucks more for STX.
> 
> I'm sorry for bugging you guys and asking so many questions I just don't want to get a sound card and have buyers remorse. I really really appreciate all the feedback.


 
 Really it depends on taste in terms of 3D positioning. I have owned both, they both are good, but I prefer the X-Fi HD. Both will drive the X1 very well, both have an amp built in. Both factory latest drivers work well.
  
 I guess you could say "similar, but not the same" You'll love either one.


----------



## Slayn

namelesspfg said:


> You got it mixed up again. SBX Pro Surround is on the newer Z-series cards; the X-Fi Titanium HD uses CMSS-3D Headphone in Game Mode and THX TruStudio Surround in Entertainment Mode.
> 
> If headphone amplification is really that big of a deal to you, I'd suggest budgeting for an external amp.
> 
> ...


 
 I get it mixed up a lot. ; ) So a Titanium HD has cmss-3d, but only in game mode. And I am only concerned with an amp because I assume the one in my non-HD is pretty weak. If I am going for the Fidelios, apparently they don't amp up well, but I would assume that even a slight boost will do it good.
  
 So is the receiver a good idea? Hooking up from the toslink on the sound card to my Onkyo TX-SR606?


----------



## kidboy17

motorwayne said:


> Really it depends on taste in terms of 3D positioning. I have owned both, they both are good, but I prefer the X-Fi HD. Both will drive the X1 very well, both have an amp built in. Both factory latest drivers work well.
> 
> I guess you could say "similar, but not the same" You'll love either one.


 
 I understand 3D positioning is very important for FPSs but on my computer I would be listening to music and netflix, playing playstation, n64 and snes emulators and playing games like Skyrim more than playing FPSs. Does that change on what I should buy? 
  
 Edit: I just listened to the videos that Mad Lust Envy has on his guide with my newly bought X1s, using onboard sound from a Nvidia 680i sli motherboard (7 years old) and the first thing that I noticed was the "bathroom" effect that DH has on games, specifically Skyrim and also in Bioshock Inifinite video. When CMSS-3D came on and then THX, I couldn't tell a difference to be honest. The video I am referring to is this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04yEtZJVpyY.
  
 So would the Titanium HD be the best bet for my needs?


----------



## PippoXD

Hey,
  
 I just got a Sound blaster x-fi 5.1 surround pro by mistake on the seller's part (i wanted non-pro), but i didnt care much, so oppened it and trying to install it.
  
 It works, meaning i can use it with my headphones, but i cant install the drivers from creative's website :S
 I get "setup is unable to detect a supported product on your system" error, i also tried to extract the files and installing manually but same thing happens "No supported device found".
  
 Can i please get some help here? I tried to google it and tried some supposed fixes, but they dont work.


----------



## Murder Mike

pippoxd said:


> Can i please get some help here? I tried to google it and tried some supposed fixes, but they dont work.


 
  
 Did you try using different USB ports? Sometimes they can get finicky.


----------



## PippoXD

murder mike said:


> Did you try using different USB ports? Sometimes they can get finicky.


 
 I did, i tried 2 different at the back and 1 at the front, btw i forgot to mention that the device is recognized on device manager. I just cant install the drivers.
  
 EDIT: Just tried to install on my laptop with windows 7 and same error
  
 Edit : nevermind, im pretty sure they uploaded the wrong drivers on the website, i moved the drivers from the CD to usb pen and installed them on Desktop (no CD drive)


----------



## AvroArrow

So I'm itching to try out CMSS-3D Headphone and am trying to find a used X-Fi Titanium PCIe (70SB088000004) in/to Canada for less than $100 which is turning out much harder than I thought.  Are there any other PCIe bus Creative cards that do the same CMSS-3D Headphone downmix to stereo and digital passthrough to SPDIF?  In particular, do the X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty PCIe cards (70SB088600007 and 70SB088600002) do the same thing?  I'm currently running Dolby Headphone via onboard SPDIF > Audioengine D1 > Schiit Asgard 2 > K702.65, so all I want is the soundcard for the CMSS-3D HP processing.
  
 Did Creative ever make what is essentially a USB version of the X-Fi Titanium with the down-mixing and passthrough via SPDIF?  I think I read an earlier post from NamelessPFG that stated that the X-Fi Go! USB (SB1100) did NOT downmix and passthrough CMSS-3D HP via SPDIF.


----------



## GoldenboyJay

Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1 SB1090 (non-pro) SPDIF out: TOSLINK
  
 I'm not sure if this is still available online and this is a good option as well.
  
 There is a post before about this and can't find it.


----------



## PippoXD

Hey,
  
 Im having trouble setting up my audio on CS GO with Creative Sound Blaster x-fi surround pro. First off, i dont know what playback device to choose :S, I get sound on headphones on Speaker (sound blaster x-fi surround 5.1 pro) and on SPDIF-Out (sound blaster blablabla), however the option to configure speakers on spdif is not available, so im using the speaker configured as 5.1.
  
 Also i've tried to use ALchemy on CS GO, i follow procedure to the letter on installing and enabling snd_legacy_surround 1, however with snd_legacy_surround 1, i only hear sounds coming from straight in front of me, all other directions become mute. Should i enable sbx surround with alchemy on(it is automatically disabled when i lauch the game, so im thinking im not supposed to use it)? Is CSGO actuallly supported by alchemy(I see on forums people using it but no actual official threads mentioning it, like the game lists not including csgo)?
  
 Also in cs go im thinking i should use the 5.1 speakers option instead of headphones because the game will only output 5.1 if its told this way. Am I correct in assuming this?


----------



## EarwaxDAC

Try these instructions?
http://www.head-fi.org/t/601971/the-official-counter-strike-go-thread/15#post_10155523


----------



## PippoXD

Those dont really work for me because I dont have cmss3d or game mode, my card doesnt offer that. It offers SBX but no game mode, or at least i dont have it. But if i try to follow those instructions, its like i said, i get no sound coming from anywhere but the front. Its like my headphones are only playing the center speaker of a 5.1 speaker setup.


----------



## GoldenboyJay

Hey Guys, I need a Headphone AMP suggestion with Optical In feature for less than $100. Basically, it will be connected through internal sound card Digital/Optical Out. I know mostly will suggest buying a new sound card with Headphone AMP and at the moment i only need a Headphone AMP. Thanks.


----------



## genclaymore

There's no headphone amp's with optical  in, Only RCA. You would need to get a external dac amp if you want optical inputs, to plug your sound card into.


----------



## GoldenboyJay

Thanks. I see. I thinks it's better of buying a sound card with headphone amp.


----------



## genclaymore

If you already have a sound card, you can spend $100 and under for a External headphone amp and use the analog output of your existing sound card to  the headphone amp RCA input using a 3.5 to RCA cable. Like a Schiit Magi, Fiio E9,  Vali if you add 19 more dollars  to your budget not counting shippingand there more options for a external headphone amp.
  
 If you just wanna keep it simple then you can find a cheap SBZ Oem for under 100,or a used STX for around $139 used if you lucky.


----------



## GoldenboyJay

Hmm.. I'll try that route with Magi or E9. Thanks.


----------



## MrEleventy

avroarrow said:


> So I'm itching to try out CMSS-3D Headphone and am trying to find a used X-Fi Titanium PCIe (70SB088000004) in/to Canada for less than $100 which is turning out much harder than I thought.  Are there any other PCIe bus Creative cards that do the same CMSS-3D Headphone downmix to stereo and digital passthrough to SPDIF?  In particular, do the X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty PCIe cards (70SB088600007 and 70SB088600002) do the same thing?  I'm currently running Dolby Headphone via onboard SPDIF > Audioengine D1 > Schiit Asgard 2 > K702.65, so all I want is the soundcard for the CMSS-3D HP processing.
> 
> Did Creative ever make what is essentially a USB version of the X-Fi Titanium with the down-mixing and passthrough via SPDIF?  I think I read an earlier post from NamelessPFG that stated that the X-Fi Go! USB (SB1100) did NOT downmix and passthrough CMSS-3D HP via SPDIF.


 

Correct. 



goldenboyjay said:


> Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1 SB1090 (non-pro) SPDIF out: TOSLINK
> 
> I'm not sure if this is still available online and this is a good option as well.
> 
> There is a post before about this and can't find it.




Link

@Avro : I still have a spare SB1090 that I won from eBay. PM me if you're interested.

It's what I'm currently running, SB1090 -> NFB12 via optical -> DT880s. Works really well. It's like wallhacking.


----------



## kidboy17

Driver question for Titanium HD owners. Is the new drivers (released Feb 10, 2014) worth updating to or not?


----------



## motorwayne

kidboy17 said:


> Driver question for Titanium HD owners. Is the new drivers (released Feb 10, 2014) worth updating to or not?


 
 Seems stable.


----------



## roguegeek

kidboy17 said:


> Driver question for Titanium HD owners. Is the new drivers (released Feb 10, 2014) worth updating to or not?


 
 There's nothing _wrong_ with it. I don't see a reason to not update it.


----------



## kidboy17

OK thanks guys. I heard people with windows 8.1 were having problems and I wasn't sure if Windows 7 was having some issues or not.


----------



## soneca

Hey guys,

Apologise if this had been already addressed. But there are just too many post to read through everything. 

I'm wondering about how external amps/DACs would compare to these soundcards. 
I understand that external amps/DAC generally has better sound fidelity than internal sound cards, mostly because of electronic noise isolation, less space constrains for better layout and in general external "audiophile" amps/DACs would have better components due to its target audience. 

However, I'm a gamer as well and would like to experience both high fidelity and surround reproduction from my games. 
Based on Nameless's guide, it's based mainly on gaming soundcards. 
I've read and watched videos of "experts" saying that soundcards are gimmick and that external amps/DACs are far more superior. They also stated that they get the same level of surround sound. 
For the headphone portion, I think it's easier to understand since most people have the same advice. 
For headphones with bigger soundstage and opened would have better surround. That sounds like it makes sense. 

But there's a very grey area to soundcard vs external amp/DACs. Is soundcard surround sound feature really a marketing stunt or is it necessary? 

Thanks and sorry in advance, if someone had already addressed this. Been having trouble finding someone with both expertise to give precise advise.


----------



## Murder Mike

soneca said:


> But there's a very grey area to soundcard vs external amp/DACs. Is soundcard surround sound feature really a marketing stunt or is it necessary?
> 
> Thanks and sorry in advance, if someone had already addressed this. Been having trouble finding someone with both expertise to give precise advise.


 
 You can use a sound card with and audiophile grade DAC and amp. I posted this a few pages back. It lists the various combinations. Depending on how picky you are (and your budget), you can easily go any of those routes. 
  
 I will say some people don't like virtual surround processing and they're certainly entitled to their opinion. To my knowledge, those people are a very small minority.


----------



## GoldenboyJay

Hey Murder Mike, thanks for the link. It helps me understand more what i need for my setup. I'm still deciding what to purchase based on price and sound quality.
  
 Here is my plan setup:
  
 1. Buy a Creative X-Fi Titanium HD soundcard for around $150 http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blaster-Titanium-Internal-SB1270/dp/B0041OUA38/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1394131240&sr=8-1&keywords=x-fi+titanium+hd
  
 or
  
 2. Fiio E17 for around $124 http://www.amazon.com/FIIO-E17-Alpen-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B0070UFMOW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1394142979&sr=8-1&keywords=fiio+e17
  
  
 I'm currently using an onboard sound and Razer Surround and this serves me well in PC Gaming and i think this upgrade path is right for me because i  needed more volume and quality. I'm on a budget for upgrade.
  
 I've read that the SMSL SD 793II also has a decent DAC
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMSL-SD-793II-DAC-DIR9001-PCM1793-OPA2134-Coax-Optical-Input-Headphone-Amp-B-/290786571436#shpCntId but not sure if this OK for an alternative upgrade DAC? Thanks.


----------



## genclaymore

You can get a Asus Xonar STX used for $139 off amazon which would be another good choice if it's still there.


----------



## GoldenboyJay

genclaymore said:


> You can get a Asus Xonar STX used for $139 off amazon which would be another good choice if it's still there.


 
 Thanks for the suggestion. I forgot to include on my post that i'm currently liking the CMSS-3D and Razer surround for PC Games. Asus Xonar is no doubt a very good alternative though.


----------



## SaLX

This is completely new to me .. never heard of it.. but the guys on Twitch / DayZ say it's superb: ie it's a viable alternative to TS. Anybody got any opinions?
  
 https://axon.dolby.com/


----------



## NamelessPFG

soneca said:


> Apologise if this had been already addressed. But there are just too many post to read through everything.
> 
> I'm wondering about how external amps/DACs would compare to these soundcards.
> I understand that external amps/DAC generally has better sound fidelity than internal sound cards, mostly because of electronic noise isolation, less space constrains for better layout and in general external "audiophile" amps/DACs would have better components due to its target audience.
> ...


 
  
 If you're talking about that infamous Teksyndicate video, it's been ripped apart in this very thread countless times for generating more misinformation and FUD. Well-intentioned as it may be, they're only spreading more misconceptions, to the consternation of all us Head-Fi folk.
  
 I'll just tell you this: if games mixed headphone surround properly from the outset, then we wouldn't be using virtual surround on PCs or consoles alike to begin with. The problem is that they DON'T, so we get sound cards (or Mixamps/AVRs with Dolby Headphone/etc. for the consoles) and leverage their virtual surround capabilities so that everything doesn't sound one-dimensional.
  
 Furthermore, a USB DAC has precisely ZERO gaming DSP features, not even the rudimentary EAX 1/2 you get out of integrated Realtek codecs or any ALchemy-esque wrapper to convert DirectSound3D to OpenAL. Do you have even the slightest idea how lifeless and awful DS3D-based games sound without ALchemy to re-enable hardware acceleration through OpenAL? Sure, they tend to be very old titles from the Win9x/early XP days as opposed to today's FMOD/Wwise software-mixed fare, but I like the classics. (And that's not even getting into how I built a Win9x gaming box with an Aureal Vortex2-based card specifically to get the most out of A3D-based titles...)
  
 Yes, there's Razer Surround, which is entirely software-based and could work on USB DACs, but it just doesn't do it for me at all, no matter how I tweak it.
  
 Maybe one day, the audio middlewares in common use will have binaural mix options by default, and then I can believe them. But until that happens? I continue to stand by CMSS-3D Headphone.


----------



## SaLX

*Microsoft will announce DirectX 12 March 20*
http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/microsoft_will_announce_directx_12_march_20.html
  
 Challenge to Mantle anybody?? No news about their sound API / DirectSound, but you never know.


----------



## motorwayne

salx said:


> This is completely new to me .. never heard of it.. but the guys on Twitch / DayZ say it's superb: ie it's a viable alternative to TS. Anybody got any opinions?
> 
> https://axon.dolby.com/


 
 You a DayZ player too?


----------



## SaLX

@motorwayne - yeah really enjoying it even though there's not many zombies to worry about. Played the mod virtually from the beginning. Great game.


----------



## motorwayne

@SaLX same same, looking forward to the hordes if they come.


----------



## watsaname

How does the surround sound VoIP work? I know ventrilo offers it too, or at least advertises it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SaLX

Best read up on it here watsa: https://www.tentonhammer.com/reviews/axon. The most exciting is it's API that'll allow devs to implement it in their games. Nice to see somebody else have a stab at the VIOP market.
  
 I'm hoping for a solution that has a hierarchical squad management system. I know that TS has something like, that but it's a pain to pull off. 
  
 @motorwayne.... latest Exp patch has sorted out the directional sound. When you hear a rifle shot from well over a km away and know where it's from: sweet. Hopefully they'll continue working on the sounds.


----------



## PurpleAngel

ASUS Announces the Essence STX II and Essence STX II 7.1 Sound Cards  
 http://www.techpowerup.com/198852/asus-announces-the-essence-stx-ii-and-essence-stx-ii-7-1-sound-cards.html


----------



## motorwayne

purpleangel said:


> ASUS Announces the Essence STX II and Essence STX II 7.1 Sound Cards
> http://www.techpowerup.com/198852/asus-announces-the-essence-stx-ii-and-essence-stx-ii-7-1-sound-cards.html


 
 Now that is just PORN right there!
  
 I feel dirty.


----------



## motorwayne

False alarm, not porn..Just more STX garbage 3D positioning junk. What I mean to say is I think I still love my Tit HD
  
  
 <------Runs away


----------



## driftaholic

Just tripped over this today: http://www.twobigears.com/


----------



## driftaholic

Just found out about this over on occulus reddit. Haven't tested it out yet: http://www.twobigears.com/


----------



## watsaname

salx said:


> Best read up on it here watsa: https://www.tentonhammer.com/reviews/axon. The most exciting is it's API that'll allow devs to implement it in their games. Nice to see somebody else have a stab at the VIOP market.
> 
> I'm hoping for a solution that has a hierarchical squad management system. I know that TS has something like, that but it's a pain to pull off.
> 
> @motorwayne.... latest Exp patch has sorted out the directional sound. When you hear a rifle shot from well over a km away and know where it's from: sweet. Hopefully they'll continue working on the sounds.


 

 Oh that is pretty cool. It would be fun to see that implemented into games. It make me think of Dayz' and Insurgency's VoIP.


----------



## Stillhart

murder mike said:


> There are a few ways to do it.
> 
> The most basic - Get a sound card with surround processing and use the headphone out on that. This can vary from ok to great depending on how much you decide to spend on a sound card. The lower end ones like the DG/DGX/Titanium/Z/etc will have everything you need to get started with a basic set of headphones that don't need much amping. If you want to spend more on something like the ZXR or Essence STX, they will have a better DAC and even an amp build in to run some higher end headphones without needing anything external.
> 
> ...


 
 So to clarify, if I want to use an external DAC/Amp combo, can I just get a cheaper card with the processing I like and an optical out?  For example an SB1040 to do CMSS-3D Headphone into a Magni/Modi?  Or wait, Modi doesn't have optical in... so I'll need a soundcard with RCA outs or a DAC with optical in.  That sound about right?
  
 EDIT - Duh, sorry, Modi is USB-in.  RCA-in is on the amp.  I'd have to use something like a E17 DAC with SPDIF input or a E07K DAC with 3.5mm input using "What U Hear" from the sound card.  Does that make your heads hurt less?
  
 EDIT 2 - Okay now I'm confusing myself.  If I use the What U Hear thing, that's already analog and don't need a DAC, right?  So yeah, a DAC with SPDIF seems like the only way to use the sound card as a DSP with an external DAC/Amp.


----------



## wein07

Hope I didn't go too off topic.
  
 Quick qn. Auzentech Bravura user here. Xi-fi card i believe. Is it possible to not install any Drivers for it, to experience positional audio like CMSS 3D on Win7? Thanks. Playing Titanfall only now.


----------



## PurpleAngel

stillhart said:


> So to clarify, if I want to use an external DAC/Amp combo, can I just get a cheaper card with the processing I like and an optical out?  For example an SB1040 to do CMSS-3D Headphone into a Magni/Modi?  Or wait, Modi doesn't have optical in... so I'll need a soundcard with RCA outs or a DAC with optical in.  That sound about right?
> 
> EDIT - Duh, sorry, Modi is USB-in.  RCA-in is on the amp.  I'd have to use something like a E17 DAC with SPDIF input or a E07K DAC with 3.5mm input using "What U Hear" from the sound card.  Does that make your heads hurt less?
> 
> EDIT 2 - Okay now I'm confusing myself.  If I use the What U Hear thing, that's already analog and don't need a DAC, right?  So yeah, a DAC with SPDIF seems like the only way to use the sound card as a DSP with an external DAC/Amp.


 
 Check out the Audio-GD NFB-15.32 or NFB-11.32 external DAC/Amp, they come with S/PDIF (optical & coaxial) input connections.


----------



## watsaname

You can also take a look Maverick Audio and their TubeMagic if you want to look at tube dacs/have more options. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Stillhart

watsaname said:


> You can also take a look Maverick Audio and their TubeMagic if you want to look at tube dacs/have more options.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
 I don't know what a tube DAC is, but the D1 looks like a pretty decent device for only $200.  Doesn't look like I'd need a separate headphone amp either.  I'll have to do more research on options, but thanks for this!


----------



## Murder Mike

If anyone wants a pretty nice desktop mic, the Blue Snowball Ice is on sale at Amazon and Best Buy's eBay store for $39.99.


----------



## NamelessPFG

wein07 said:


> Hope I didn't go too off topic.
> 
> Quick qn. Auzentech Bravura user here. Xi-fi card i believe. Is it possible to not install any Drivers for it, to experience positional audio like CMSS 3D on Win7? Thanks. Playing Titanfall only now.



Absolutely not.

You need to install the drivers on ANY sound card to make use of the DSP features. Otherwise, it's just another DAC/ADC.

Also, the X-Fi Bravura's a fake. Should've bought a Forte or HomeTheater HD for a real CA-20K2.


----------



## soccerdude84

So I followed Creative's instructions on setting the windows speaker setup to 7.1 and to use the headphone setting with headphones. But I also have 2.1 speakers, am I supposed to enable CMSS-3D for gaming with my 2.1 or leave it off?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Turn it off for speakers. If the software is like the Recon one, they ahould have a hifi mode that disables extra pocessors. I swith that on whenever I use speakers, and toggle on game mode when using headphones for gaming.


----------



## NamelessPFG

For stereo speakers, you're supposed to use CMSS-3D Virtual.
  
 The problem is that using CMSS-3D Virtual requires setting the X-Fi to 2/2.1 Speakers mode, and for Vista/Win7/Win8, this forces the Windows speaker setting to Stereo, which completely defeats the purpose of using CMSS-3D Virtual in the first place (outside of DirectSound3D/OpenAL titles).


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I dunno, I look at it as some expanded stereo. I think speakers should remain strictly as stereo speakers with no extra processing.


----------



## sycomike01

Here is my question. I have a laptop and I use a Sound Blaster X-Fi Pro. I also have an Astro Mix Amp. Which one is going to give me better sound for my AD700? Any help will be great thanx.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Mixamps are not meant for PC use.

Use the X-Fi; it's a lot less hassle to get virtual surround working, plus you get software OpenAL (USB X-Fi devices don't do it in hardware) and ALchemy for DirectSound3D games.


----------



## soccerdude84

namelesspfg said:


> For stereo speakers, you're supposed to use CMSS-3D Virtual.
> 
> The problem is that using CMSS-3D Virtual requires setting the X-Fi to 2/2.1 Speakers mode, and for Vista/Win7/Win8, this forces the Windows speaker setting to Stereo, which completely defeats the purpose of using CMSS-3D Virtual in the first place (outside of DirectSound3D/OpenAL titles).


 
 So since I have it set to 7.1, it shows up as CMSS-3D Surround, would this even do anything if I turned it on?


----------



## NamelessPFG

soccerdude84 said:


> So since I have it set to 7.1, it shows up as CMSS-3D Surround, would this even do anything if I turned it on?


 
  
 CMSS-3D Surround is a stereo upmix for surround speaker systems, nothing more. That is NOT the feature you want. No thanks to Creative for naming different features so similarly...
  
 Headphone-only gaming is straightforward because the enforced Windows speaker setting synchronization isn't a problem for Headphone mode. When you want to switch between headphones and stereo speakers, though, that just complicates everything to the point of impracticality, unless you're okay with having a headphone-optimized mix being output to your speakers.


----------



## soccerdude84

Would it better to just set Windows to 2.1 and not worry about it or do the headphones benefit greatly from 7.1?


----------



## NamelessPFG

mad lust envy said:


> I dunno, I look at it as some expanded stereo. I think speakers should remain strictly as stereo speakers with no extra processing.


 
  
 Apparently, HRTF techniques are possible with stereo speakers, but it requires crosstalk cancellation and the speakers to be positioned around 30 degrees off of the listener's center on both sides.
  
 QSound is the most notable example of such tech, but Aureal had a similar mix with A3D, and Creative also attempted it with CMSS-3D Virtual.
  
 Still, headphones work far better for this sort of thing in my experience. Ironically, the very lack of crosstalk that makes people want to use crossfeeds and other such techniques to replicate the speaker listening experience is what makes headphones far better for HRTF-based mixing techniques at the source.
  


soccerdude84 said:


> Would it better to just set Windows to 2.1 and not worry about it or do the headphones benefit greatly from 7.1?


 
  
 You are *gimping yourself* if you don't set Windows to 7.1 while gaming with headphones! It's the way modern games read that speaker setting to determine how to mix the audio, and their stereo mixes are frequently terrible.
  
 Trying to use CMSS-3D Headphone or other virtual surround tech on a stereo signal is *fruitless*, after all; you need to ensure that it's getting a 7.1 signal to work with, and that's where the Windows setting comes in.


----------



## Razz7

Hi guys, I've read numerous topics/complaint threads now about Dolby Digital Live "latency", I'm wondering if CMSS-3D, SBX Surround, or THX Surround have the same problem with latency? I have the Astro A40's along with the 2013 Mixamp so I also don't know if i'm stuck with Dolby digital live because of the Mixamp, But if those other 3 Surround systems has no latency I would get rid of the Mixamp or keep it if it can use the signal.
  
 Anyone know anything about this? thanks.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

The latency is so minute... it doesn't bother me at all. Certainly like a microsecond difference at least for me.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

The latency is so minute... it doesn't bother me at all. Certainly like a a few millisecond difference at least for me.


----------



## Razz7

mad lust envy said:


> The latency is so minute... it doesn't bother me at all. Certainly like a a few millisecond difference at least for me.


 
  
 Do you know if there is any difference in latency with CMSS-3D and Dolby Digital Live?


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

I never owned any CMSS euipment, so I cant help there.


----------



## chicolom

razz7 said:


> Hi guys, I've read numerous topics/complaint threads now about Dolby Digital Live "latency", I'm wondering if CMSS-3D, SBX Surround, or THX Surround have the same problem with latency? I have the Astro A40's along with the 2013 Mixamp so I also don't know if i'm stuck with Dolby digital live because of the Mixamp, But if those other 3 Surround systems has no latency I would get rid of the Mixamp or keep it if it can use the signal.
> 
> Anyone know anything about this? thanks.


 
  
  
 In my experience, the latency is when you use certain soundcards to encode into Dolby Digital Live.  For example, if I use my SB Z soundcard to encode into Dolby Digital Live (instead of just using it's own SBX Pro surround) then I get a bit of latency when that  DD 5.1 signal reaches my DSS.
  
 The mixamp itself, for whatever reason, doesn't have this latency on consoles.  Perhaps they are faster at encoding Dolby Digital Live at a more hardware-level Vs. certain soundcards.  Since I assume you're trying to use it with PC though, it's possible your computer is creating some latency when trying to first to encode a DD 5.1 signal for the mixamp. 
  
 I haven't heard any complaints about Dolby Headphone soundcards like the Xonar U3 or Xonar DGX though.


----------



## Razz7

chicolom said:


> In my experience, the latency is when you use certain soundcards to encode into Dolby Digital Live.  For example, if I use my SB Z soundcard to encode into Dolby Digital Live (instead of just using it's own SBX Pro surround) then I get a bit of latency when that  DD 5.1 signal reaches my DSS.
> 
> The mixamp itself, for whatever reason, doesn't have this latency on consoles.  Perhaps they are faster at encoding Dolby Digital Live at a more hardware-level Vs. certain soundcards.  Since I assume you're trying to use it with PC though, it's possible your computer is creating some latency when trying to first to encode a DD 5.1 signal for the mixamp.
> 
> I haven't heard any complaints about Dolby Headphone soundcards like the Xonar U3 or Xonar DGX though.


 
  
 So would I get less latency if I use CMSS-3D or SBX Surround instead of Dolby Digital live?, Also how would I connect the soundcard to the headset? Thanks.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Pretty sure those also need Dolby Digital to work... I know THX Tru Studio does...


----------



## Evshrug

mad lust envy said:


> Pretty sure those also need Dolby Digital to work... I know THX Tru Studio does...



Neh, not really. It's different in Computerworld...
The windows audio stack takes raw positional data and creates 7.1 channels of lossless audio. From that, creative's software either makes a virtual surround mix for stereo headphones, OR makes a DDL compressed mix for output through optical. The soundcards are actually optimized for 7.1-to-headphone mixing, it's a simple "apply this affect to that channel, send this % audio to that earspeaker," but they're not optimized (just "good enough") to actually process the math to compress 7.1 LPCM down to DDL.


----------



## chicolom

razz7 said:


> So would I get less latency if I use CMSS-3D or SBX Surround instead of Dolby Digital live?, Also how would I connect the soundcard to the headset? Thanks.


 
  
  
 What is your setup now?  Your using a mixamp with your PC?  How are you getting DD 5.1 to the mixamp??
  
 I think the problem might be whatever method your using to get DD 5.1 to the mixamp is causing latency.  "Dolby Digital Live" and "Dolby Headphone" are two different things, so don't be confused there. 
   
 

  
 I don't notice any difference in latency between SBX Pro and using a mixamp with a console.  The latency comes when I tell my SB Z soundcard to encode Dolby Digital Live and then send that out.  I don't know if cards that "natively" support Dolby Headphone (Xonar cards I mentioned above) have any latency problems though.  They might not.


----------



## Razz7

chicolom said:


> What is your setup now?  Your using a mixamp with your PC?  How are you getting DD 5.1 to the mixamp??
> 
> I think the problem might be whatever method your using to get DD 5.1 to the mixamp is causing latency.  "Dolby Digital Live" and "Dolby Headphone" are two different things, so don't be confused there.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi, Right now I only have the Astro A40 headset and the Mixamp, I am debating about getting a Sound Blaster Z soundcard for Positional audio, But read issues with latency via Dolby Digital Live as I do not want latency as I play Counter Strike on PC.
  
 I connect the Mixamp with an optical cable from onboard motherboard audio.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Oh Evs, I just thought the games were all DDL by default. I didn't know it was like that. I'm so used to the restrictions of console gaming.

No wonder Dolby Headphone sounds different on PC. I always thought it was inferior to the same games being played on consoles.

No wonder... DH may work it's best getting a legit DD feed, instead getting a converted feed from a PC.

Chico... wait, you're getting SBX on consoles? HAO?


----------



## Fegefeuer

DH on the PC is superior due to having access to the "lossless" stream. It's only lossless in the sense of not having to be downgraded again with 640kbps AC3 encoding. File format or source is another matter. We can argue if Skyrim's audio samples can even get downgraded more. In the end the better the chain the more obvious DHP's weaknesses are revealed. So maybe this is what you're hinting at.
  
 The AC3 stream does not have additional binaural info which Dolby Headphone could make use of. You can't just artificially add some info when the sound card drivers (or the Mixamp) knows nothing about the game world and gets fully mixed discrete streams only. DDL is a simple encoder, nothing more. 
  
 DHP is too old for such an idea anyway. This is where DTS Headphone X has the theoretical advantage as DTS-HD streams can include binaural info if sound engineers want to. I don't see it anywhere though. Last thing I heard is Sennheiser joining the boat. I assume it's about calibrating their headphones.


----------



## Mad Lust Envy

Im not referring to lossless lr audio quality or whatever. I'm referring to positional cues sounding quite a bit different on pc than on consoles. I have never heard a game on both a console or pc that sounds better on pc.

I have been comparing games I own on both my ps3/ps4 and pc. Games like Tomb Raider, Left for Dead, Devil May Cry, etc. None, NONE of the games I own sound better on pc.


----------



## Stillhart

razz7 said:


> Hi, Right now I only have the Astro A40 headset and the Mixamp, I am debating about getting a Sound Blaster Z soundcard for Positional audio, But read issues with latency via Dolby Digital Live as I do not want latency as I play Counter Strike on PC.
> 
> I connect the Mixamp with an optical cable from onboard motherboard audio.


 
  
 I may be mistaken, but if you get an SBZ, you won't need the Mixamp on the PC (unless you super prefer DH to SBX).  The SBZ will do everything the mixamp will do but with one less link in the chain.


----------



## chicolom

razz7 said:


> Hi, Right now I only have the Astro A40 headset and the Mixamp, I am debating about getting a Sound Blaster Z soundcard for Positional audio, But read issues with latency via Dolby Digital Live as I do not want latency as I play Counter Strike on PC.
> 
> I connect the Mixamp with an optical cable from onboard motherboard audio.


 
  
 I don't know if your onboard audio is creating latency or not.  You're saying you've been reading about issues, but I haven't heard you say your _experiencing_ actual latency issues yourself.
  
 So I can't say whether getting a soundcard will fix your latency issues, because I don't know if you HAVE any latency issues.
  
  


mad lust envy said:


> Chico... wait, you're getting SBX on consoles? HAO?


 
  
 No, I was just saying that I don't notice audio latency on my PC with SBX, nor do I notice latency on console with the mixamp.  The time I notice latency is when I tell the SBZ to encode DD 5.1.


----------



## Razz7

stillhart said:


> I may be mistaken, but if you get an SBZ, you won't need the Mixamp on the PC (unless you super prefer DH to SBX).  The SBZ will do everything the mixamp will do but with one less link in the chain.


 
  
  
 Yeah I know what you mean, But I like the Mixamp so I can switch between game volume and Voip on the fly,
  
 I will most likely buy the Sound Blaster Z to try it out anyway nothing to lose, Also thinking about buying a Philips Fidelio X1 is this any good for footsteps or the SBZ? or Would I be better with a AKG Q701?
  
 I'm going to pick between those two headphones I believe.


----------



## Razz7

chicolom said:


> I don't know if your onboard audio is creating latency or not.  You're saying you've been reading about issues, but I haven't heard you say your _experiencing_ actual latency issues yourself.
> 
> So I can't say whether getting a soundcard will fix your latency issues, because I don't know if you HAVE any latency issues.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi, No I don't have any issues yet because I don't have a soundcard or motherboard that outputs 5.1 Dolby Digital Live the now, That's why i'm wondering if the SBZ has latency issues with it as that's what i've read.


----------



## chicolom

Does the SB Z have latency issues when you tell it to encode Dolby Digital 5.1?   *YES.  *
  
 But you wouldn't really need to tell it to encode DD 5.1 or use it in conjunction with the mixamp.  You would just use it's own SBX pro DSP, which won't have any latency.
  
  
 Since your PC can't do any surround (or give the proper signal to the mixamp for IT to do surround) as it stands right now, you'll have to buy a soundcard regardless.  So it just comes down to picking one with the DSP you prefer (Dolby Headphone, SBX Pro, or CMSS). 
  
 I would NOT buy a soundcard, tell it to encode DD 5.1, and then also use it in conjunction with the mixamp.  That's unecessary extra steps since the soundcard can do all that on it's own. 
  
 I would just use the soundcard ALONE, and leave the mixamp out of it.


----------



## Stillhart

razz7 said:


> Yeah I know what you mean, But I like the Mixamp so I can switch between game volume and Voip on the fly,
> 
> I will most likely buy the Sound Blaster Z to try it out anyway nothing to lose, Also thinking about buying a Philips Fidelio X1 is this any good for footsteps or the SBZ? or Would I be better with a AKG Q701?
> 
> I'm going to pick between those two headphones I believe.


 
  
 I have both of those headphones right now.  The Q701 is absolutely amazing for sound-whoring in games.  It's super detailed and has a masive soundstage for great positional tracking.  The X1 is excellent, but not as good as the Q701.  However, the X1 is significantly more fun with all that bass.
  
 If your goal is to win the MOST, at the expense of everything else, get the Q.  If you goal is to win MORE and also enjoy non-shooters and movies, get the X1.


----------



## Razz7

chicolom said:


> Does the SB Z have latency issues when you tell it to encode Dolby Digital 5.1?   *YES.  *
> 
> But you wouldn't really need to tell it to encode DD 5.1 or use it in conjunction with the mixamp.  You would just use it's own SBX pro DSP, which won't have any latency.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ok thanks for the reply, So i'll just not use the Mixamp then, I'll either use CMSS or SBX pro, I also see that you have a Fidelio X1 would you recommend that for gaming for positional audio etc footsteps? As i'm thinking about getting those aswell.


----------



## Razz7

stillhart said:


> I have both of those headphones right now.  The Q701 is absolutely amazing for sound-whoring in games.  It's super detailed and has a masive soundstage for great positional tracking.  The X1 is excellent, but not as good as the Q701.  However, the X1 is significantly more fun with all that bass.
> 
> *If your goal is to win the MOST, at the expense of everything else, get the Q.  If you goal is to win MORE and also enjoy non-shooters and movies, get the X1.*


 
  
  
 Haha, That's a hard one for me, Thanks for you're replys!


----------



## chicolom

razz7 said:


> Ok thanks for the reply, So i'll just not use the Mixamp then, I'll either use CMSS or SBX pro, I also see that you have a Fidelio X1 would you recommend that for gaming for positional audio etc footsteps? As i'm thinking about getting those aswell.


 
  
  
 If you want the same surround DSP in the mixamp (Dolby Headphone), then just get one of the Xonar cards that supports it (Xonar DGX).
  
  
 The Fidelio X1 is a very good all rounder and is good at positional audio.  If you're mainly playing competitive Counter Strike, you may want to go with something like the Q701, simply because the X1's bass quantity makes it a bit more suited for single player fun/immersive gaming.
  
 See what Stillhart wrote above ^.


----------



## Stillhart

razz7 said:


> Haha, That's a hard one for me, Thanks for you're replys!


 
  
 Me too, that's why I still have both.  I was supposed to sell one and keep the other.


----------



## Razz7

chicolom said:


> If you want the same surround DSP in the mixamp (Dolby Headphone), then just get one of the Xonar cards that supports it (Xonar DGX).
> 
> 
> The Fidelio X1 is a very good all rounder and is good at positional audio.  If you're mainly playing competitive Counter Strike, you may want to go with something like the Q701, simply because the X1's bass quantity makes it a bit more suited for single player fun/immersive gaming.
> ...


 
  
  
 Yeah it's going to be a very tough choice to pick between the two, Thanks for your replys aswell man, I appreciate it.
  
 I guess i'll post at a later date to say which one i've went with!


----------



## SaLX

Check out this video of this game in development (goto 12:40):
  
 
  
 Stunningly good attention to sound detail / comms - when one of them shouts down the corridor to the other = awesome.


----------



## Fegefeuer

http://www.interstellarmarines.com/articles/development/
  
 Their dev articles about audio are also very interesting.


----------



## motorwayne

I just grabbed the game from steam.


----------



## SaLX

Be hugely interested to hear your opinion of it at this stage in it's development Motorwayne


----------



## aKeio

Just picked up a Titanium HD the other day for a good deal and I've been running into some issues, hopefully someone here could help me out.


 In game mode, sometimes I'm experience static/sound distortions through my audio. This more or less happens the most often when I am alt-tab'ed out of the game I'm in and there is audio from a background application, i.e. Skype. It generally resolves itself when I alt-tab back into the game, though I've had it happen when I accidentally left it in game-mode and watched some videos on YouTube. I was playing around with the settings when it does occur and toggling OFF CMSS-3D seems to resolve the issue, but I kind-of bought the card for CMSS-3D so disabling is kind of against the point.

 Anyone?

 FWIW:

 Windows settings are set to 5.1
 X-Fi settings are set to headphone, game mode, CMSS-3D ON,


----------



## GoldenboyXD

Hi aKeio, how much is the Titanium HD? Seems you had a good deal. PM me the details.


----------



## Exodus121

Hi everyone so I just picked up AKG q701's and I'm looking for a proper setup for gaming and music.
  
 I have nothing except onboard sound from realtek so I will be needing a new soundcard I assume?
  
 I have something of an idea that I need to get a soundcard, a dac, and an amp but I don't know what kinds I should be looking for to pair with the q701's.
  
 Titanium HD seems to be the thing to get?


----------



## Murder Mike

exodus121 said:


> Hi everyone so I just picked up AKG q701's and I'm looking for a proper setup for gaming and music.
> 
> I have nothing except onboard sound from realtek so I will be needing a new soundcard I assume?
> 
> ...


 
  
Read this post.


----------



## Stillhart

murder mike said:


> Read this post.


 
  
 I love that post.  Nameless should really add that info to the front page...


----------



## Exodus121

murder mike said:


> Read this post.


 
  
  
 Thanks Mike, I guess the information overload really put me in a place of confusion.  
  
 Thank you for the information!


----------



## Murder Mike

For your specific scenario, I would grab a sound card with whatever VSS you like best and then add an amp like a Magni/Vali, E09K, O2, etc.


----------



## genclaymore

Its exactly what I do with the Xonar DGX when I plug it into my NFB 15.32 thru optical and switch back to usb input when I'm done. So I dont have to mess with the sound card settings.


----------



## NamelessPFG

stillhart said:


> I love that post.  Nameless should really add that info to the front page...


 
  
 Duly noted for whenever I get around to entirely re-writing this guide so that people don't keep repeatedly asking the same questions all the time.
  
 That will most likely have to wait 'til next month, however. There are tests and final exams coming up.


----------



## aKeio

akeio said:


> Just picked up a Titanium HD the other day for a good deal and I've been running into some issues, hopefully someone here could help me out.
> 
> 
> In game mode, sometimes I'm experience static/sound distortions through my audio. This more or less happens the most often when I am alt-tab'ed out of the game I'm in and there is audio from a background application, i.e. Skype. It generally resolves itself when I alt-tab back into the game, though I've had it happen when I accidentally left it in game-mode and watched some videos on YouTube. I was playing around with the settings when it does occur and toggling OFF CMSS-3D seems to resolve the issue, but I kind-of bought the card for CMSS-3D so disabling is kind of against the point.
> ...


 



 Anyone?


----------



## watsaname

I tried doing the trick by SniperCzar, where you enable "What U Hear" to output the sound to my Fiio E07k and it was working at first. However after taking a short break and coming back to my desk it just plain stopped working. I've gone back and forth switching on/off the "listen to this device" check box, disabling the "What U Hear" device, checked if the usb port still worked, switched usb cables, switched to the headphone out to make sure it was playing sounds, restarted my computer, and I have no idea how to get it to work again. I feel like I've tried everything. Really unfortunate because I thought this was going to be a cool way of getting around only being able to use spdif dacs.
  
 EDIT: I should also note that I was doing this on my Soundblaster Z and was switching around between sbx surround, regular stereo, and EAX in BF2142. Everything was working beautifully until I got back home... Never leaving home ever again.


----------



## rooted

Hey folks,
  
 I can't believe this thread is 190 pages!!! I've haven't read them all, but maybe someone (possibly the OP) could do an overview?? :-D
  
 I'm new to the forum but I've used Head-Fi quite a bit in the past as a resource for various reviews, info, etc., etc.. I've probably read a bit of this thread as well.
  
 As a VR (Virtual Reality) developer/ sound designer / audio engineer, I started researching this subject last year when I first tried a modern VR HMD (Head Mounted Display.) I instantly knew that spatialised sound would be important for a higher level of "presence/immersion." The history of binaural audio for games is pretty interesting but also disappointing due to the downfall of aureal and creative's lack of support/development with CMSS-3D etc., etc.. It seems today's defacto standard is Stereo on up to 7.1 which I think is a regression.
  
 Stereo and multi-channel audio is great with a well setup speaker system, playing in a casual gaming environment. But it's true spatialised sound that is the best fit for VR IMO. With the recent reemergence of VR, binaural/spatialised audio is also seeing a comeback. The main things that makes spatialised sound an attractive choice for VR, is the ability to do head tracking coupled with a wide FOV (Field Of View.) This produces a high level of immersion, much more than any static binaural audio demo because the sound is now linked with visual queues. This resembles how we hear in reality. Much of how we localize and differentiate front and back sound sources is through visual queues and slight head adjustments.  
  
 I've experimented with quite a few possible solutions and finally created a VR demo for the Oculus Rift using this technology. The solution I came up with also does a great job of generalizing the filter profile so that most everybody hears the same effect! If you have a Rift and would like to try the demo, just PM me. I think the future is bright for binaural audio!


----------



## Razz7

Hi people, I have connected my Soundcard (Soundblaster Z) to the Astro mixamp via optical toslink, Then to my AKG's, do you know if I am hampering sound quality by doing this? Should I connect my AKG's to the 3.5mm jack on the Soundcard instead?


----------



## benbenkr

watsaname said:


> I tried doing the trick by SniperCzar, where you enable "What U Hear" to output the sound to my Fiio E07k and it was working at first. However after taking a short break and coming back to my desk it just plain stopped working. I've gone back and forth switching on/off the "listen to this device" check box, disabling the "What U Hear" device, checked if the usb port still worked, switched usb cables, switched to the headphone out to make sure it was playing sounds, restarted my computer, and I have no idea how to get it to work again. I feel like I've tried everything. Really unfortunate because I thought this was going to be a cool way of getting around only being able to use spdif dacs.
> 
> EDIT: I should also note that I was doing this on my Soundblaster Z and was switching around between sbx surround, regular stereo, and EAX in BF2142. Everything was working beautifully until I got back home... Never leaving home ever again.


 
  
 This happened to me previously on the E17. I had no idea how I fixed it, but all I did was left it alone and one day I just decided to try it again then it worked.
  
 Weird, huh?
  
  


razz7 said:


> Hi people, I have connected my Soundcard (Soundblaster Z) to the Astro mixamp via optical toslink, Then to my AKG's, do you know if I am hampering sound quality by doing this? Should I connect my AKG's to the 3.5mm jack on the Soundcard instead?


 
  
 Uh... yes you are. Well rather, what's the point of the SBZ if you're using your Mixamp? Even, what's the point of the Mixamp if you are already using the SBZ? If you are trying to use Dolby Headphone through the Mixamp, then I guess  if that's what you want, that's up to you. Could have just gone with a cheaper Xonar U3 and get DH though.
  
 I don't know which AKG you are refering to because you know, AKG has dozens of headphones in their catalogue. But the SBZ amps just as well as the Mixamp does.


----------



## Chubtoad

I know this is primarily a thread for headphones, but I'm hoping someone could help me by answering a few questions.
  
 I am planning to purchase a pair of active studio monitors, the JBL LSR305 to be exact - http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/3-series/lsr305#Specs
  
 My soundcard is a Creative X-FI Titanium HD and I have the Schiit Asgard 2 headphone amp which has pre-amp outs. I was planning on connecting the speakers to the Asgard 2 by using an RCA to XLR cable since the speakers have only XLR and TRS inputs on the back of them. Would this be the correct way to hook them up?
  
 Also, If I wanted to add the matching subwoofer the LSR310S - http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/3-series/lsr310s#Specs would It be as simple as hooking the sub to the Asgard 2 and then the speakers directly to the subwoofer? I would not want to damage anything by hooking up something that shouldn't be hooked up.
  
 If It's that simple, would it also be possible then to substitute the soundcard for the Astro mixamp If I wanted to use these with a console?
  
 I have never owned a pair of studio monitors so I'd like to know from people who have if they have done anything similar?


----------



## Razz7

Uh... yes you are. Well rather, what's the point of the SBZ if you're using your Mixamp? Even, what's the point of the Mixamp if you are already using the SBZ? If you are trying to use Dolby Headphone through the Mixamp, then I guess  if that's what you want, that's up to you. Could have just gone with a cheaper Xonar U3 and get DH though.

I don't know which AKG you are refering to because you know, AKG has dozens of headphones in their catalogue. But the SBZ amps just as well as the Mixamp does.
[/quote]

I have akg q701's and I was using the mixamp as it's alot easier to control game audio and voip.


----------



## Evshrug

Rooted,
The basic summary is that since aureal died, the older X-Fi titanium HD soundcards are the most broadly compatible option for PC surround. And then a few tips about activating OpenAL, but most of the rest of the thread is "what should I buy" and troubleshooting.

I'm personally very excited about the Occulus Rift and Sony's Morpheus concept, but I haven't bought a head-unit. I'd definitely like one compatible with the headphones I already have, and honestly I'm not excited about screens on top of my face. However, I really do enjoy virtual surround now, to the point where I miss it when it's not there.

Apparently the PS4 has AMD's TrueAudio dedicated audio processor, I'm hopeful it will also be used to support 3D virtual surround for headphones. That would be a big gain for exposing the masses to surround.


----------



## watsaname

benbenkr said:


> This happened to me previously on the E17. I had no idea how I fixed it, but all I did was left it alone and one day I just decided to try it again then it worked.
> 
> Weird, huh?
> 
> ...


 
 Man, I have no clue what I am doing wrong. I think I am going to reinstall the SBZ drivers and see if that will help. It seems people usually have problems with turning it off, I am having problems turning it on...
  
  
 EDIT: I've uninstalled, then reinstalled the SBZ driver and "What U Hear" is working again! I am happy because after I listened to see if the SBX and EAX effects actually worked through usb I went and bought an L7 for my Fiio D07k.


----------



## benbenkr

Glad that it's working for you again. Creative drivers are always weird, for no reason at all.
 It can just fail out of the blue.


----------



## watsaname

Yeah, it must be placebo, but I feel as if the sound-stage increased a bit and all sounds took a step back using the E07k with line out to a O2 amp.


----------



## benbenkr

Might not be placebo even.
  
 Did you reinstall with a different driver version? Because Creative traditionally has the tendancy to shift the way how audio is processed through its driver, however slight it might be. I've found that in the past, they would say for example make 20% CMSS-3D sound like it would be 45%, eventhough the slider remains at 20%. Internally on their .ini files, the algorithms are modified.
  
 It's even more notorious with modded drivers (looking at you PAX).


----------



## Murder Mike

chubtoad said:


> I know this is primarily a thread for headphones, but I'm hoping someone could help me by answering a few questions.
> 
> I am planning to purchase a pair of active studio monitors, the JBL LSR305 to be exact - http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/3-series/lsr305#Specs
> 
> ...


 
 You've got it right. Sound card --> pre-amp --> speakers or sound card --> pre-amp --> sub --> speakers. As for the using them with a Mixamp on a console, it should work, but I'm not 100% on it.


----------



## watsaname

benbenkr said:


> Might not be placebo even.
> 
> Did you reinstall with a different driver version? Because Creative traditionally has the tendancy to shift the way how audio is processed through its driver, however slight it might be. I've found that in the past, they would say for example make 20% CMSS-3D sound like it would be 45%, eventhough the slider remains at 20%. Internally on their .ini files, the algorithms are modified.
> 
> It's even more notorious with modded drivers (looking at you PAX).


 

 I was using some older ones because I didn't want to download the music server thing, which basically disallowed me from downloading any future drivers. So now I am on what I assume to be the most updated drivers via their website.


----------



## rooted

evshrug said:


> Rooted,
> The basic summary is that since aureal died, the older X-Fi titanium HD soundcards are the most broadly compatible option for PC surround. And then a few tips about activating OpenAL, but most of the rest of the thread is "what should I buy" and troubleshooting.
> 
> I'm personally very excited about the Occulus Rift and Sony's Morpheus concept, but I haven't bought a head-unit. I'd definitely like one compatible with the headphones I already have, and honestly I'm not excited about screens on top of my face. However, I really do enjoy virtual surround now, to the point where I miss it when it's not there.
> ...


 
 Thanks for the overview!
  
 True binaural/3D/Spatialised audio can be achieved through software. I think it's great that AMD has TrueAudio and I'm hoping I can get to play with it soon. But what I think it's most useful for is for processing really complex convolution reverbs and possibly offloading any heavy spatialisation. Otherwise, it's best to keep it in software so we don't get into another hardware war!
  
 If you haven't tried a Rift or Morpheus run to the next demo available in your area! Good stuff!


----------



## Chubtoad

murder mike said:


> You've got it right. Sound card --> pre-amp --> speakers or sound card --> pre-amp --> sub --> speakers. As for the using them with a Mixamp on a console, it should work, but I'm not 100% on it.


 
 Thanks for the response. I'll have to see how it goes with the mixamp as well.


----------



## kh600rr

So I could use some game card advice. I play a lot of FPS, all on a Sager laptop. I am currently using a Nuforce Icon HDP& AK-240, for amp-Dac's, I use headphones& iem's. So I know I got a pretty sweet music set up, but for gaming I know I'm missing out, like directional, surround. Was wondering what you guys would recommend, to bring up my gaming experience . Thanks..


----------



## benbenkr

I didn't realize this until today, Schiit has a new option added when purchasing the Modi - Optical input.
  
 Yes, that's pretty much a Godsend.
 Those who has always been looking at the $200 Schiit stack, but didn't want to go down that route due to the lack of optical in, now you have no excuse anymore.
  
 Now if only Schiit can make an all-in-one with optical input.....


----------



## lttlfld

I misunderstood an earlier post and have removed my comment. Thanks everyone!


----------



## MrEleventy

I'm pretty sure he's asking about audio in terms of gaming. Not a way to upgrade the gfx card. I recommend doing research on which surround sound option you may like. Razer Surround is still free so give that a try as well, might work for you.


----------



## Stillhart

benbenkr said:


> I didn't realize this until today, Schiit has a new option added when purchasing the Modi - Optical input.
> 
> Yes, that's pretty much a Godsend.
> Those who has always been looking at the $200 Schiit stack, but didn't want to go down that route due to the lack of optical in, now you have no excuse anymore.
> ...


 

 YES YES YES!  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.  When I emailed Schiit about a cheap DAC with optical a month ago they said one was coming soon.  I was expecting some kind of announcement, but this will have to do.  Time to order!


----------



## kh600rr

mreleventy said:


> I'm pretty sure he's asking about audio in terms of gaming. Not a way to upgrade the gfx card. I recommend doing research on which surround sound option you may like. Razer Surround is still free so give that a try as well, might work for you.



Thanks, I ordered the Asys Xonar U-7, it comes with some good gaming software, that should hopefully get me what I'm looking for.


----------



## benbenkr

stillhart said:


> YES YES YES!  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.  When I emailed Schiit about a cheap DAC with optical a month ago they said one was coming soon.  I was expecting some kind of announcement, but this will have to do.  Time to order!


 
  
 And now, it's official - http://www.head-fi.org/t/715525/avant-le-schiitstorm-a-couple-of-small-announcements
  
 Yeap, time to buy a Modi.


----------



## Murder Mike

benbenkr said:


> I didn't realize this until today, Schiit has a new option added when purchasing the Modi - Optical input.


 
  
 That's kinda cool, but it would be a lot nicer if it had USB and optical, not just one or the other.


----------



## Stillhart

murder mike said:


> That's kinda cool, but it would be a lot nicer if it had USB and optical, not just one or the other.


 
 There are plenty with both, but not at this price point.  And I doubt the Fiio E17 (the cheapest one I can think of with both) sounds as good (though I admit I haven't heard either yet).


----------



## AvroArrow

I'm not sure if I should post this here, but I figured there should be a decent amount of X-Fi Titanium owners in this thread.  If it's the wrong place to post it, please let me know and I'll start my own thread asking for help.
  
 So I managed to recently find a new old stock SB X-Fi Titanium SB0880 (non-HD) and am having some difficulty with it.  My problem is not the gaming part (that works great), but the music playback with the X-Fi Ti.  My setup is as follows:
  
 Old:
 onboard Realtek w/Dolby Headphone(SPDIF out) -> Audioengine D1 (RCA out) -> Schiit Asgard 2 -> headphones
  
 New:
 X-Fi (SPDIF out) -> Audioengine D1 (RCA out) -> Schiit Asgard 2 -> headphones
  
 The issue I am having is when I try to use WASAPI mode/drivers in Foobar2000 and MediaMonkey my PC will hard lock/freeze and requires pressing the power button to reboot.  After some searching it appears that apparently WASAPI drivers + X-Fi cards + SPDIF out is not a working combo.  Most suggestions is to either use the DirectSound or ASIO drivers instead.  So I installed the ASIO plug-ins for foobar2000 and MediaMonkey and used the default Creative ASIO drivers (I also tried the ASIO4ALL drivers) and it doesn't hard lock anymore, sometimes it will freeze for a few seconds but there's NO AUDIO output from SPDIF anymore.  The D1 keeps clicking as if it's changing modes so the X-Fi is sending some sort of signal to it, but there's no audio.  Some posts regarding the ASIO driver suggest switching to Audio Creation mode from Game mode in the X-Fi control panel, but that didn't change anything for me, still no audio.  What I have ended up doing is remove the D1 from the chain and run it like this:
  
 X-Fi (3.5mm out) -> (3.5mm to RCA cable) -> Asgard 2 -> headphones.
  
 Now I have music and the WASAPI drivers work too (ASIO drivers work for a bit then it crashes Windows), except it sounded like crap compared to my old setup.  After another hour of googling I found that I need to disable CMSS-3D (I was still in Game mode) during music playback in the X-Fi control panel and then it sounded good again.  It still doesn't sound quite as good as when I use the D1 as the DAC, but better than before.
  
 So currently for the best music and game audio I have it setup in a big mess like this:
  
 X-Fi (3.5mm out) -> (3.5mm to RCA cable) -> (2-to-1 RCA splitter) -> Asgard 2 -> headphones.
 motherboard (USB out) -> Audioengine D1 (RCA out) -> (2-to-1 RCA splitter) -> Asgard 2 -> headphones.
  
 I have foobar2000 set to use the D1 WASAPI driver as default (Windows default audio playback device is X-Fi), but I have to power on the D1 and go into the X-Fi control panel and Untick CMSS-3D when I want to listen to music and re-tick it when I want to play games and watch movies/TV.  When I was running the old DH setup I did not have to mess with any of this.  It just worked without any of this fiddling.  The virtual surround wasn't as good as CMSS-3D, but it was a lot less hassle.
  
 So my question after all this is, has anyone been able to run an X-Fi card with SPDIF out working with WASAPI/ASIO drivers in Win7 x64?  I'd really like to use the DAC on the D1 but with a cleaner wiring setup like my old DH setup than what I currently have working.  This reminded me why I stopped buying Soundblaster cards after my dearly departed Soundblaster16 with Roland MIDI daughterboard... the driver headaches.


----------



## MrEleventy

Have you tried setting the D1 as the playback device in Foobar playback-output option or is the D1 not available? I'm not familiar with the way that the D1 operates. On Audioengine's site, it says that the optical is given preference when an optical cable is plugged in, but I'm not sure if it'll disable the USB entirely.

FYI : My setup is :
Laptop -> SB -> NFB12 (optical) +--- > HPs
Laptop -> NFB12 (USB) ______/

Foobar playback is NFB12 WASAPI Event. 

Works like a charm, main difference is that the NFB12 has an input toggle switch.


----------



## SaLX

benbenkr said:


> I didn't realize this until today, Schiit has a new option added when purchasing the Modi - Optical input.
> 
> Yes, that's pretty much a Godsend.
> Those who has always been looking at the $200 Schiit stack, but didn't want to go down that route due to the lack of optical in, now you have no excuse anymore.
> ...


 
 Lol.... they took them this long. The O2 guys were whimpering on about this, but never got anywhere. Expect them to follow.


----------



## lttlfld

avroarrow said:


> I'm not sure if I should post this here, but I figured there should be a decent amount of X-Fi Titanium owners in this thread.  If it's the wrong place to post it, please let me know and I'll start my own thread asking for help.
> 
> So I managed to recently find a new old stock SB X-Fi Titanium SB0880 (non-HD) and am having some difficulty with it.  My problem is not the gaming part (that works great), but the music playback with the X-Fi Ti.  My setup is as follows:
> 
> ...



You are using a sound card, an amplifier, AND a DAC and I'm wondering how common this is. I'm currently running with just an eclaro sound card and am looking into getting an amp but never considered getting a DAC as well. It seems like you're having problems and I'm wondering if this is an issue with anyone else doing the triple combo?


----------



## AvroArrow

mreleventy said:


> Have you tried setting the D1 as the playback device in Foobar playback-output option or is the D1 not available? I'm not familiar with the way that the D1 operates. On Audioengine's site, it says that the optical is given preference when an optical cable is plugged in, but I'm not sure if it'll disable the USB entirely.
> 
> FYI : My setup is :
> Laptop -> SB -> NFB12 (optical) +--- > HPs
> ...


 
  
 The way the D1 operates if both USB and SPDIF are plugged in is that it will only process the SPDIF signal, it will auto-disable USB audio input automatically, so I have to unplug the SPDIF cable to use it as a USB DAC. 
  
 BTW, the funny thing is that my old DH wiring setup works fine with the X-Fi Surround 5.1 USB (SB1090) that I bought from you when using the WASAPI driver and via SPDIF output into the D1.  But that only has Entertainment mode, no Game or Audio Creation mode and I think it uses a different chip than the X-Fi Titanium.  Since I managed to find a new X-Fi Ti SB0880 I have since given the X-Fi Surround to my younger brother and he loves it.  Going from stock Realtek onboard to CMSS-3D was a revelation for him.  He can really kick ass now in Team Fortress 2 and other FPSes using the X-Fi Surround and Sennheiser PC360.  He games way more than I do since I have less time for games due to work. 
  
 I guess if I can't find a nice solution then I'll swap cards with him since he has no use for the SPDIF output on the X-Fi and it will drive his PC360s fine straight out of the 3.5mm headphone jack.


----------



## AvroArrow

lttlfld said:


> You are using a sound card, an amplifier, AND a DAC and I'm wondering how common this is. I'm currently running with just an eclaro sound card and am looking into getting an amp but never considered getting a DAC as well. It seems like you're having problems and I'm wondering if this is an issue with anyone else doing the triple combo?


 
  
 This triple setup is not that uncommon... here at least, but not exactly mainstream either due to cost and complexity.  I'm using AKG K702 65th Annies so they require at least a semi-decently powerful amp.  The only reason I'm having issues is more than likely the fault of poorly writen Soundblaster drivers.  I had a setup with onboard Realtek sound with hacked Dolby Headphone drivers via SPDIF and it worked great with the D1.  If I were using a cheap Asus DGX with Dolby Headphone I suspect it would continue to work great with WASAPI, Dolby Headphone, and SPDIF out.  I just like the CMSS-3D virtual surround better than Dolby Headphone.  And neither the Realtek onboard nor the 2 different X-Fi cards I have sound as good for music than the Audioengine D1 IMHO.  Maybe it's expectation bias but to me the D1 sounds better playing my FLACs than the other soundcards.  I'm using those other soundcards just for their virtual surround headphone processing alone.


----------



## lttlfld

avroarrow said:


> This triple setup is not that uncommon... here at least, but not exactly mainstream either due to cost and complexity.  I'm using AKG K702 65th Annies so they require at least a semi-decently powerful amp.  The only reason I'm having issues is more than likely the fault of poorly writen Soundblaster drivers.  I had a setup with onboard Realtek sound with hacked Dolby Headphone drivers via SPDIF and it worked great with the D1.  If I were using a cheap Asus DGX with Dolby Headphone I suspect it would continue to work great with WASAPI, Dolby Headphone, and SPDIF out.  I just like the CMSS-3D virtual surround better than Dolby Headphone.  And neither the Realtek onboard nor the 2 different X-Fi cards I have sound as good for music than the Audioengine D1 IMHO.  Maybe it's expectation bias but to me the D1 sounds better playing my FLACs than the other soundcards.  I'm using those other soundcards just for their virtual surround headphone processing alone.



This actually makes a lot of sense. Do any known soundcards provide a decent level of amp/DAC capabilities to justify a higher price?


----------



## Evshrug

People say the flagship cards (ZxR, STX) have decent capabilities, but personally I went with an Omni for convenience (surround processing, plug in my speakers and headphones at the same time and software-switch between them, built-in stereo mics and volume knob, PC or Mac) and because I can connect an optical DAC and upgraded amp later, if I want. I'm looking at that new Schiit Modi with the optical option...


----------



## benbenkr

murder mike said:


> That's kinda cool, but it would be a lot nicer if it had USB and optical, not just one or the other.


 
  
 Because, there's no point to it?
 If there were to be a USB input for power and data + optical, that would mean at any point the Modi would need to be fed off using USB. That creates juddering in audio tracks, whether or not that's audible that would depend on how dirty the power source is.
  
 Just using an external power adapter would be much cleaner already.
  
  


stillhart said:


> There are plenty with both, but not at this price point.  And I doubt the Fiio E17 (the cheapest one I can think of with both) sounds as good (though I admit I haven't heard either yet).


 
  
 You doubt wrong.
 The E17 sounds as "good" as the Modi. DACs sound same-ish these days anyway, there's not a huge difference in terms of "quality".
  
 The E17 is on the warm side and the Modi is on the neutral side. If the O2 is taken as the baseline of a flat response (which it isn't), then the Modi is just a smidge warmer than the O2.
 So no, the E17 doesn't sound inferior it just caters to a warmer signature that's all.
  
  


salx said:


> Lol.... they took them this long. The O2 guys were whimpering on about this, but never got anywhere. Expect them to follow.


 
  
 Yup way too long. But better late than never I'd say.


----------



## MrEleventy

avroarrow said:


> The way the D1 operates if both USB and SPDIF are plugged in is that it will only process the SPDIF signal, it will auto-disable USB audio input automatically, so I have to unplug the SPDIF cable to use it as a USB DAC.
> 
> BTW, the funny thing is that my old DH wiring setup works fine with the X-Fi Surround 5.1 USB (SB1090) that I bought from you when using the WASAPI driver and via SPDIF output into the D1.  But that only has Entertainment mode, no Game or Audio Creation mode and I think it uses a different chip than the X-Fi Titanium.  Since I managed to find a new X-Fi Ti SB0880 I have since given the X-Fi Surround to my younger brother and he loves it.  Going from stock Realtek onboard to CMSS-3D was a revelation for him.  He can really kick ass now in Team Fortress 2 and other FPSes using the X-Fi Surround and Sennheiser PC360.  He games way more than I do since I have less time for games due to work.
> 
> I guess if I can't find a nice solution then I'll swap cards with him since he has no use for the SPDIF output on the X-Fi and it will drive his PC360s fine straight out of the 3.5mm headphone jack.


Ahh, I see. Bummer. :\


----------



## Evshrug

benbenkr said:


> Because, there's no point to it?
> If there were to be a USB input for power and data + optical, that would mean at any point the Modi would need to be fed off using USB. That creates juddering in audio tracks, whether or not that's audible that would depend on how dirty the power source is.
> 
> Just using an external power adapter would be much cleaner already.
> ...



And what's this of comparing the O2 amp to the Modi DAC and E17 DAC/amp combo? You can't compare an O2 to a Modi. That's like comparing a car to a gas station.

It would be super convenient for me if the E17 was as technically capable as a Modi or more expensive DAC, but it sounds too good to be true and your statements above seem jumbled up, so I have to take them with a grain of salt.


----------



## genclaymore

mreleventy said:


> Ahh, I see. Bummer. :\


 

 I glad I never gotten a Audio Engine D1 back when I wanted one, because that would had annoyed me alot


----------



## benbenkr

evshrug said:


> And what's this of comparing the O2 amp to the Modi DAC and E17 DAC/amp combo? You can't compare an O2 to a Modi. That's like comparing a car to a gas station.
> 
> It would be super convenient for me if the E17 was as technically capable as a Modi or more expensive DAC, but it sounds too good to be true and your statements above seem jumbled up, so I have to take them with a grain of salt.


 
  
 Sorry, need to clarify some stuff.
  
 My mistake on the Modi using USB for power.
 Also, I don't know why I was mixing up the O2 for the ODAC, again my complete mistake. I was genuinely multi-tasking when I was typing that post.
  
 But I do think the E17 shouldn't be compared to the ODAC and Modi directly because they cater to different sound signatures. I mean, the E17 is just a warmer DAC than both the ODAC and Modi. That much is true.
  
 Sorry again for my mistakes.


----------



## MrEleventy

lttlfld said:


> You are using a sound card, an amplifier, AND a DAC and I'm wondering how common this is. I'm currently running with just an eclaro sound card and am looking into getting an amp but never considered getting a DAC as well. It seems like you're having problems and I'm wondering if this is an issue with anyone else doing the triple combo?


What Avro said. I'm technically using all 3 as well (NFB12 is a dac/amp all in one). I think a lot of us here have dacs for the musical portion as dac performance isn't as important in game but pretty vital for music. If you only game and occasionally listen to music, dac isn't as big of a deal.


----------



## genclaymore

Even if all ever did was gaming, I would still end up with a setup similar to what I have now including the not mentioned DGX for it Dolby headphone function. As I would always want my money worth do to my past or getting screwed with gaming marketed headphones or 7.1 headphones.


----------



## GoldenboyXD

mreleventy said:


> What Avro said. I'm technically using all 3 as well (NFB12 is a dac/amp all in one). I think a lot of us here have dacs for the musical portion as dac performance isn't as important in game but pretty vital for music. If you only game and occasionally listen to music, dac isn't as big of a deal.


 
  
 I like this post so i quoted it. I usually use my PC for gaming and some music and also thinking of buying an AMP only or AMP+DAC... I use a X-Fi card with optical out and analog line out. Should i buy the E17 for an AMP+DAC combo via optical or just and AMP (O2 or Magni) via analog line out? 
  
 I think it's not best to use a USB DAC like ODAC to AMP due to USB connection and may have some latency issues in gaming???


----------



## Evshrug

benbenkr said:


> Sorry, need to clarify some stuff.
> ...



Thanks for clarification, I wasn't trying to be a moderator, I was just genuinely confused and didn't know what to make of it. Also I was super-sleepy, like fading out and realizing I had scrolled down and clicked on Amazon links tired.


----------



## Stillhart

goldenboyxd said:


> I like this post so i quoted it. I usually use my PC for gaming and some music and also thinking of buying an AMP only or AMP+DAC... I use a X-Fi card with optical out and analog line out. Should i buy the E17 for an AMP+DAC combo via optical or just and AMP (O2 or Magni) via analog line out?
> 
> I think it's not best to use a USB DAC like ODAC to AMP due to USB connection and may have some latency issues in gaming???


 
 The problem with using a USB DAC is not latency, it's that you lose your virtual surround sound.
  
 FWIW, I've been slowly upgrading my rig.  I started with getting the Q701.  Then upgrade from onboard sound to an external sound card.  Then added an amp.  And now I've got an optical DAC coming.  The biggest change was the headphones.  Changing the the sound card gave me virtual surround, though not a lot of games I play on PC use it well.  The amp made my headphones sound a lot better.  I'm curious how much the DAC will help.
  
 Before each upgrade, i was happy with what I had.  After each upgrade, I realized I was missing something before and I was really happy I'd done it.  Either way I was happy so take that for what it's worth.  lol


----------



## MrEleventy

stillhart said:


> The problem with using a USB DAC is not latency, it's that you lose your virtual surround sound.
> 
> FWIW, I've been slowly upgrading my rig.  I started with getting the Q701.  Then upgrade from onboard sound to an external sound card.  Then added an amp.  And now I've got an optical DAC coming.  The biggest change was the headphones.  Changing the the sound card gave me virtual surround, though not a lot of games I play on PC use it well.  The amp made my headphones sound a lot better.  I'm curious how much the DAC will help.
> 
> Before each upgrade, i was happy with what I had.  After each upgrade, I realized I was missing something before and I was really happy I'd done it.  Either way I was happy so take that for what it's worth.  lol


Actually, it's not latency nor do you lose surround sound. It just doesn't sound as good. There's a method to feed the already processed audio into a usb dac, on a SB card, it's "What U Hear". I tried it, out of curiosity. You get a lower fidelity feed. The audio is fuzzier, low res instead of being clear.


----------



## GoldenboyXD

mreleventy said:


> Actually, it's not latency nor do you lose surround sound. It just doesn't sound as good. There's a method to feed the already processed audio into a usb dac, on a SB card, it's "What U Hear". I tried it, out of curiosity. You get a lower fidelity feed. The audio is fuzzier, low res instead of being clear.


 
  
 Thanks for the input. So the best method if will be using a DAC would be using the optical out from Sound Card/Onboard audio to DAC optical input (if available) and output to AMP or just get an AMP connected directly from analog line out of Sound Card/Onboard audio?
  
 The only budget wise AMP/DAC that i know of are the E17s and SMSLs... and the new Schiit Modi with optical input...
  
 EDIT: Magni to Modi. Confused with the Schiit products. lol


----------



## MrEleventy

The FS threads here is a great asset if you have to time to stalk it. I picked up my NFB12 for under $150 and it works and sounds great. Other than that... yeah, it's tough to find something feature packed for a low price.

FYI : Magni is an amp and does not have an optical input. Just RCAs. Modi does, but it's a dac only. Volume control would be strictly OS based.


----------



## Stillhart

mreleventy said:


> Actually, it's not latency nor do you lose surround sound. It just doesn't sound as good. There's a method to feed the already processed audio into a usb dac, on a SB card, it's "What U Hear". I tried it, out of curiosity. You get a lower fidelity feed. The audio is fuzzier, low res instead of being clear.


 
 Deleted my smarmy defensive response.  Trying again:
  
 You're not doing a very good job of proving me wrong when you say that you CAN get surround to a USB DAC, but ONLY if you use a specific brand of sound card and a feature that sounds like crap.
  
 For all practical purposes, the only way to get quality virtual surround to a DAC is via optical.  Unless there's somethign else I'm missing...?


----------



## GoldenboyXD

I always get confused with the Schiit stacks. lol. Let me edit my post... Thanks. Hopefully i'll see some good deals soon.


----------



## genclaymore

stillhart said:


> Deleted my smarmy defensive response.  Trying again:
> 
> You're not doing a very good job of proving me wrong when you say that you CAN get surround to a USB DAC, but ONLY if you use a specific brand of sound card and a feature that sounds like crap.
> 
> For all practical purposes, the only way to get quality virtual surround to a DAC is via optical.  Unless there's somethign else I'm missing...?


 

 Razer surround software is one option that will do it


----------



## benbenkr

genclaymore said:


> Razer surround software is one option that will do it


 
  
 Yes, but Razer's surround has like the worst rear cues in any virtual surround solution. It's unusable IMO. They have a good concept and if they can actually improve on this, then hey, goodbye Creative, THX and Dolby.
  
 Their simple implementation is what I like, but it's of no use if it doesn't work.


----------



## MrEleventy

stillhart said:


> Deleted my smarmy defensive response.  Trying again:


Cool, because I was in no way intending to offend. Cooler heads have prevailed.  



stillhart said:


> You're not doing a very good job of proving me wrong when you say that you CAN get surround to a USB DAC, but ONLY if you use a specific brand of sound card and a feature that sounds like crap.
> 
> For all practical purposes, the only way to get quality virtual surround to a DAC is via optical.  Unless there's somethign else I'm missing...?


He already has the SB card, so he has the ability to do it. I wasn't trying to prove you wrong, merely inform him that it's still an option. And when you're cash strapped, some options is better than none. Decent USB dacs are inexpensive so he'll still be able to have a good setup for music and still can game from it. It's not ideal but not everyone can afford ideal.


----------



## Stillhart

mreleventy said:


> Cool, because I was in no way intending to offend. Cooler heads have prevailed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, I hear that.  I've spent a lot of money on this hobby so far and it's just for "entry level" mid-fi stuff.
  
 Speaking as someone who's been looking for a decent, cheap optical DAC for sveral weeks now, I think that the Modi is going to be your best (cheapest) bet if you want to buy new.  If you don't care about surround in gaming, or you can get the USB method mentioned above working, there are plenty of solid USB DAC options.  Maybe a used Dragonfly 1.0?
  
 I'll echo the recommendation to stalk the classifieds here for good deals.  I snagged a Fiio E11 portable amp for free (plus shipping) last week.  Also keep an eye on the Deals thread.


----------



## Stillhart

Okay, my search-fu has failed me.  You guys are my best hope!
  
 I got my Modi and SYS tonight.  I setup the SYS to switch between the Modi and the RCA out from the SB Omni.  This lets me A/B to hear the differences.  I figured out how to make the SPDIF Out the default device in Windows so that my Winamp and games and such output to it.  So far so good.
  
 So my issue is that when I'm using the SPDIF output from the sound card, the SBX Studio stuff (including virtual surround) doesn't do anything.  If I swap the default back to the Speaker Out (RCA), the SBX stuff works fine. 
  
 Now I know there's supposed to be a way to get this working and I feel like there's something obvious I'm missing.  Can someone help?
  
 BTW, really enjoying the Modi for music.


----------



## genclaymore

You have to enable Send stereo to optical from the Z control panel so it will send the card features and stuff out of the optical. it should be the last thing in the control panel


----------



## Stillhart

genclaymore said:


> You have to enable Send stereo to optical from the Z control panel so it will send the card features and stuff out of the optical. it should be the last thing in the control panel


 
  
 I don't see that option on the Omni control panel.  Sounds like I'm missing something really simple like that, I just can't find it...
  
 EDIT - When I go to "Audio Device Selection" in the Omni control panel, it only shows "speakers" as an option.  It doesn't even let me select SPDIF.
  
 EDIT2 - Oh jeez, I think I'm using an outdated version of the control panel.  Newest version has this handy dandy feature:  "~Added support for SBX effects and Scout Mode to audio output from S/PDIF-out"


----------



## Stillhart

Well ****balls, that did it.  Now I just need to make sure I have everything else setup correctly.
  
 Windows is set to use SPDIF as the default device (which doesn't let me select my speaker setup).
  
 Omni Control Panel is set to surround off.  I'll turn this on when I game?
  
 Omni Control Panel is set to Headphones.  I set it to 5.1 also and I honestly don't hear a difference for playing music so I'm not sure what the proper setting for this.
  
 Sound about right?


----------



## genclaymore

Yes that is correct, I don't know which player you use for music but if it's foobar or winamp, you can use asio/wasapi plugins that will bypass the windows mixer and play back the music without the dsp effects of the sound card. That way you don't have to disable the sound card settings or reneable them all the time.. It what I do with the DGX that I have.


----------



## Stillhart

genclaymore said:


> Yes that is correct, I don't know which player you use for music but if it's foobar or winamp, you can use asio/wasapi plugins that will bypass the windows mixer and play back the music without the dsp effects of the sound card. That way you don't have to disable the sound card settings or reneable them all the time.. It what I do with the DGX that I have.



Ooooh I get it now. I was wondering why people used those plugins. Thanks.

So to confirm, I want the omni set to headphone, right?


----------



## genclaymore

stillhart said:


> Ooooh I get it now. I was wondering why people used those plugins. Thanks.
> 
> So to confirm, I want the omni set to headphone, right?


 
 yea


----------



## Stillhart

genclaymore said:


> yea


 
 Sweet, thanks for the help!  Now I'll be able to pass the help along for the next noob to get one of these.  (I'm looking at you, @Evshrug!)


----------



## Evshrug

stillhart said:


> Ooooh I get it now. I was wondering why people used those plugins. Thanks.
> 
> So to confirm, I want the omni set to headphone, right?



Just FYI, the surround processing is different for Speakers/RCA than headphones. 



stillhart said:


> Sweet, thanks for the help!  Now I'll be able to pass the help along for the next noob to get one of these.  (I'm looking at you, @Evshrug
> !)



*gulp*


----------



## GoldenboyXD

Hi Guys,
  
 Anybody knows what is the difference between Creative's "Scout Mode" and CMSS-3D? All i know is the scout mode is newer and i don't see any performance comparison between the two in my search.


----------



## Stillhart

goldenboyxd said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Anybody knows what is the difference between Creative's "Scout Mode" and CMSS-3D? All i know is the scout mode is newer and i don't see any performance comparison between the two in my search.


 
  
 My understanding is that Scout Mode is just an EQ thing.  You're probably thinking of SBX, which is their surround processing.  My understanding is that SBX is similar to the THX from their previous line.  There are youtube videos around where you can listen to the differences and decide for yourself which you like better...


----------



## GoldenboyXD

stillhart said:


> My understanding is that Scout Mode is just an EQ thing.  You're probably thinking of SBX, which is their surround processing.  My understanding is that SBX is similar to the THX from their previous line.  There are youtube videos around where you can listen to the differences and decide for yourself which you like better...


 
  
 Thanks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Reading from this review on http://www.custompcreview.com/reviews/creative-sound-blaster-z-pcie-sound-card-review/16668/3/: 


> This was a feature previously introduced when the Recon 3D series was introduced, so I’m actually quite familiar with the feature. What scout mode does is increase the treble and mid response while decreasing the bass. This way, sounds such as gunfire and footsteps are enhanced while background music and other non-essential audio is minimized.


 
  
 If i understand it correctly, i think this is an EQ controlled and not a 3D effect like CMSS-3D. I'll try to check some youtube videos.


----------



## benbenkr

Yes Scout Mode is a pre-set EQ.
 You do not ever want to use it though, if you want to tame the bass just EQ on your own.


----------



## Exodus121

Totally agree do not use it.


----------



## Stillhart

I believe MLE said you couldn't even use Scout mode at the same time as the THX on the Recon3D.  So you gain some questionable value from the EQ, but lose your surround processing.  Terrible tradeoff...


----------



## SaLX

I disagree about not ever using scout mode: _use it if you've got crap headphones_. Then again, if you're here on Head-Fi, you'll have looked at MLE's guide and read other poster's threads; hopefully we're all using, or about to buy a good gaming solution.
  
 It's not a **** feature by any means and it's a keyboard shortcut toggle.


----------



## Evshrug

Or a button on the Recon3D (so it can work with consoles on the fly).

I'm not entirely sure if scout mode does or does not disable surround processing... At first, I would sometimes use it at night with lower volumes so I could give my ears a break and still stay pretty competitive, but I rarely use it anymore. Haven't even tried it on the Omni.


----------



## NamelessPFG

stillhart said:


> I believe MLE said you couldn't even use Scout mode at the same time as the THX on the Recon3D.  So you gain some questionable value from the EQ, but lose your surround processing.  Terrible tradeoff...


Unfortunately, that's correct. It's either THX TSP Surround or Scout Mode with the Recon3D USB, not both.

The Z-series cards may be different, but I can't say for sure.


----------



## KamikazeIce

stillhart said:


> Okay, my search-fu has failed me.  You guys are my best hope!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I've been tinkering about with the Omni the last week or so, as I was having problems similar to your. You can read the original posts about my experience in the Sound Blaster Z/Zx/ZxR thread. Fair warning, I have problems being coherant, so I appologize if it's hard to understand.
  
 As you noticed, SBX effects don't work properly with optical. I know of two solutions to this, but there may be more. Give one a try and see if it helps.
  
 One involes using the "What U Hear" recording device. Make the Omni (analog) the default device, open the "What U Hear" device properties and check "Listen to this device" and select the Omni SPDIF out device. The only problem with this solution is you cannot listen to discrete surround channels without SBX. I have multichannel music (quads, DVD-A, SACDs) and movies that I don't like with SBX on, so I don't use this method.

  
 For the other, just stick something in the headphone port. This does not have to connect to anything, a 3.5mm adapter plug is what I use. This forces the driver to use a "headphone" mode that processes SBX properly. I have no clue as to why this works, so I think it's just a "feature" (bug) since Creative is known for their amazing driver software.

  
 In anycase, the control panel should be set to "headphone" and set the Omni's analog device in windows, not the control panel, to 5.1.
 When using optical out the difference between using or not using this headphone port trick is night and day.

  

  

  

  
 I've been playing with having Dolby Digital Live encoding enabled, or not, while using SBX. The soundstage is definetly larger when enabled compared to when it's disabled, but they both have different imaging/localization. I don't know which is the correct result. I assumed it was DDL disabled was correct since you'd think the game sends 5.1 to the card, and then processed and mixed into stereo instead of a DDL 5.1 compressed signal.


----------



## Stillhart

kamikazeice said:


> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the reply, bud.  I actually fixed the problem by updating my SB Omni Control Panel software.  Turns out I was using an old version and this was fixed in the January update.  I'm a bit embarrassed by this, but hopefully I can help others with my stupidity.
  
 Regarding DDL, for my uses (sending SBX 2.0 virtual surround over optical to a DAC) you want DDL off.  The DAC can't interpret the DDL signal.  If you're sending it over optical to a Recon or Mixamp, you need DDL on, I believe.


----------



## KamikazeIce

I'm also using the latest drivers, and firmware, from Creative. Still, could you try plugging the headphone port? It may do nothing for you, but I'm interested if doing that does make such a large change that I experienced so I can find out if I should return my Omni for a replacement. Then you can tell me to stuff it 


  


  
 My Denon 4520CI has DTS Neo: X and Audyssey DSX. If you're not familliar with them, Neo: X has a more centered listening point while DSX is slightly back so there is more emphasis on front sounds than rear.


  
 I prefer Neo: X over DSX for my real speakers for gaming, it keeps sounds the same "distance" as the sound pans from speaker to speaker when turning around. 9.2 setup with Wides ATM, so I would be extracting embedded sound queues either way but both do it differently.
 I bring this up as this is my current opinion from results I hear with my Omni. SBX + headphone port plugged with DDL disabled produces something thats more similar to DSX, whereas SBX + headphone port plugged with DDL enabled gives me something more similar to Neo: X


  
 Both results are good, one focuses on even distribution of sound all around you and the other emphasizes the frontal sounds more. Please note that I say similar, this is not literal and only used to illustrate the general relativity of their differences. I won't say which I think is which, try it out for yourself. I don't want to risk influencing someone's decision by giving specific expectations 


  


  
 Of course it is as you say, you can only make use of this option if you can decode said DDL signal.


  
 I've been using the RAW track in THIS THREAD for testing. The first 40 or so seconds is the ingame speaker test, followed by three segments of the intro that is great to test audio localization. I really like  this because there is no video for you to rely on for location. I'm not trying to say X setup is wrong, only that it's worth trying with and without DDL encoding (Windows@ 5.1, Omni set to "Headphone", SPDIF cloning)


----------



## Stillhart

I pluggd something into the headphone port and heard no change.  Might be your Omni, man.
  
 I'll check out that track later on, thx!


----------



## GoldenboyXD

Hi Guys, hoping for your suggestions and recommendations. I posted this on the other thread but i thought this would be appropriate here.
  
 I own a X-Fi Titanium and O2 and thinking of buying an external DAC (optical) or TiHD?


----------



## NamelessPFG

goldenboyxd said:


> Hi Guys, hoping for your suggestions and recommendations. I posted this on the other thread but i thought this would be appropriate here.
> 
> I own a X-Fi Titanium and O2 and thinking of buying an external DAC (optical) or TiHD?


 
  
 Either route is viable. I suppose it depends on whether you don't mind having an external DAC around your computer space or not.
  
 It's worth nothing that a DAC with S/PDIF input would benefit a wide range of sources; a new sound card only benefits a computer, and since you're already packing an X-Fi Titanium, you already have most of the DSP stuff the Titanium HD brings to the table.
  
 If you were to buy the Titanium HD, what are you going to do with the existing X-Fi Titanium (non-HD)? Move it to a different computer? Resell it?


----------



## GoldenboyXD

namelesspfg said:


> Either route is viable. I suppose it depends on whether you don't mind having an external DAC around your computer space or not.
> 
> It's worth nothing that a DAC with S/PDIF input would benefit a wide range of sources; a new sound card only benefits a computer, and since you're already packing an X-Fi Titanium, you already have most of the DSP stuff the Titanium HD brings to the table.
> 
> If you were to buy the Titanium HD, what are you going to do with the existing X-Fi Titanium (non-HD)? Move it to a different computer? Resell it?


 
 Thanks NamelessPFG! I'm glad hearing your response. If i can manage to get the best deal on TiHD i will sell the non-HD card.
  
 I don't want to spend more just for TiHD or DAC. I'm thinking of buying the Schiit Modi (optical) DAC for about $99 and pair it up with my O2 which kinda weird.


----------



## thecalculator

Hey guys. So I've had my Titanium HD and k712 Pros for about a week now. I love it very much. (Coming from a onboard mobo soundcard, Turtle Beach's x11's, and DSS). But it feels like something is missing. An amp maybe? If so. which one should I purchase? Should I use my DSS for the meantime?


----------



## Dark_wizzie

I have HD800 with O2/Dac. Do you think this is a fine setup for positional audio? I don't have a sound card with all their EAX and audio stuff.


----------



## Stillhart

thecalculator said:


> Hey guys. So I've had my Titanium HD and k712 Pros for about a week now. I love it very much. (Coming from a onboard mobo soundcard, Turtle Beach's x11's, and DSS). But it feels like something is missing. An amp maybe? If so. which one should I purchase? Should I use my DSS for the meantime?


 

 The DSS isn't going to give you the amping you need for the K712.  Grab any of the ones in the MLE guide (E09K, E12, O2, Magni/Vali, etc.)  Or move up to the next price bracket with a Matrix M-Stage or Asgard.  FWIW, I love my M-stage.


----------



## NamelessPFG

goldenboyxd said:


> Thanks NamelessPFG! I'm glad hearing your response. If i can manage to get the best deal on TiHD i will sell the non-HD card.
> 
> I don't want to spend more just for TiHD or DAC. I'm thinking of buying the Schiit Modi (optical) DAC for about $99 and pair it up with my O2 which kinda weird.


 
  
 I actually didn't know the Schiit Modi had an optical/Toslink S/PDIF input variant now. The existing USB-only version would not have been ideal. I'll keep that in mind for the future.
  
 And, no, there's nothing really weird about that. I prefer separate DAC/amp components anyway so I can mix and match as desired. (I don't use a dedicated DAC, though; when I've already got an X-Fi Titanium HD, there's not much point in it.)
  


dark_wizzie said:


> I have HD800 with O2/Dac. Do you think this is a fine setup for positional audio? I don't have a sound card with all their EAX and audio stuff.


 
  
 It would be quite fine, except the ODAC isn't going to give you any sort of headphone virtual surround at all, and neither will the vast majority of games on the market. You'd be stuck with hard-panning, one-dimensional stereo the way they treat headphones...
  
 You could try out Razer Surround, but it was pretty crappy in my experience.
  
 All of that said, the HD800 should bring out the best in whatever virtual surround tech you opt for, be it CMSS-3D Headphone, Dolby Headphone, SBX Pro Surround or whatever else you might favor.
  
 (I'd love to try one myself one of these days, though I also have to keep in mind spritzer's warning that they only sound good with the right amp backing them. Keep in mind that's coming from a guy who almost never considers a dynamic headphone good-sounding and even hated the HD800 at first before he heard it off a different amp.)


----------



## Fegefeuer

dark_wizzie said:


> I have HD800 with O2/Dac. Do you think this is a fine setup for positional audio? I don't have a sound card with all their EAX and audio stuff.


 
  
 You have the best headphone in the world for this, now you need a DAC/AMP with optical input so you can connect a soundcard with virtual surround tech. I recommend the Asus Essence One (or Muses) for a start, it'll cover both DAC and AMP purposes very well (for the price) and SBX for your gaming needs. CMSS-3D and HD 800 can kill you in games with low quality samples. Honorable mention: Bioshock Infinite. Sure you can EQ the highs down but remember that it also changes spatial information. No problem with the lows.


----------



## Evshrug

goldenboyxd said:


> Hi Guys, hoping for your suggestions and recommendations. I posted this on the other thread but i thought this would be appropriate here.
> 
> I own a X-Fi Titanium and O2 and thinking of buying an external DAC (optical) or TiHD? :confused_face_2:



FWIR, the main thing you gain going Ti to TiHD is a better integrated DAC and Amp... If you're using optical output to an external DAC (and the O2 for amping), you're not going to make much use of the TiHD.


----------



## Exodus121

Hey guys, I'm having a problem where when I set my equalizer to something like this
  

  
 and anything with heavy bass will just hit this point where the bass will just fall/flatten out.
  
 I run a soundblaster zxr with q701's and run the q701's in 600ohm mode.  Repeated hits of bass succinctly will have this really weird distorted effect like there is some behind the scene volume compensation system that is trying to dampen output.  
  
 Anyone have any ideas what's going on?  My Bass management is off


----------



## NamelessPFG

Your system's probably clipping because you EQed above the neutral point.

Drop that rightmost LEVEL slider or your overall volume and tell us if the problem stops.


----------



## Stillhart

exodus121 said:


> I run a soundblaster zxr with q701's and run the q701's in 600ohm mode.


 
  
 What do you mean when you say you run the Q701 in 600ohm mode?


----------



## Fegefeuer

gain mode


----------



## Stillhart

Random question that I'm hoping goes in here.  I'm having trouble finding a decent DAC with optical input in the sub $200 range.  There are tons of USB ones though.  Is it possible to have a USB DAC hooked up at the same time as a sound card and easily swap back and forth in the software depending on whether I'm listening to music or gaming?
  
 I have a Schiit SYS, so swapping my source (DAC vs Sound Card) into my Amp is easy.  I'm more concerned out my sound output.  I'm thinking setting the sound card to default and then using WASPI or something to make Winamp always point to the USB DAC?


----------



## AvroArrow

stillhart said:


> Random question that I'm hoping goes in here.  I'm having trouble finding a decent DAC with optical input in the sub $200 range.  There are tons of USB ones though.  Is it possible to have a USB DAC hooked up at the same time as a sound card and easily swap back and forth in the software depending on whether I'm listening to music or gaming?
> 
> I have a Schiit SYS, so swapping my source (DAC vs Sound Card) into my Amp is easy.  I'm more concerned out my sound output.  I'm thinking setting the sound card to default and then using WASPI or something to make Winamp always point to the USB DAC?


 
  
 Yes, that's exactly how I have mine setup.  Default windows sound device is my X-Fi Titanium, in Foobar2000 and MediaMonkey I set the output to WASAPI (event): Speakers (Audioengine D1) so whenever I play music it uses the D1 instead of the X-Fi.  I run a pair of Y-splitters to my Asgard 2 or Fiio E09k depending on whether I want to run a heater on my desk or not.  RCA outputs from my D1 & X-Fi (3.5mm-to-RCA) go into the splitters on the back of the Amp.
  
 A note about my D1.  I'm running it from USB input only and not using the Optical input because of lame X-Fi drivers.  I can't get the X-Fi ASIO or WASAPI drivers to work over optical output to the D1's optical input without it hard locking my Win7 x64 PC.  It worked fine with my older Dolby Headphone setup (DHT v4) but not the X-Fi Titanium.  It did work on the X-Fi Surround 5.1 (SB1090) optical when I had it.  I may have to trade my brother my X-Fi Ti for the Surround 5.1 back since he's not much of an audio guy and doesn't use external DACs and amps.
  
 I can name 3 sub $200 optical DACs, Audioengine D1, Fiio E17, Schiit Modi (Optical).  I have the E17 & D1 and use the D1 because it's a desktop DAC, the E17 goes on my Android phone or tablet.


----------



## Stillhart

Awesome, thanks!  Good to know it should work if I decide to go that route.  Note, I said I had trouble finding a "good" one.  I had the Schiit Optimodi and returned it due to not being able to tell much difference from my SB Omni's DAC.  I imagine the E17 and D1 are on the same level.  Tho TBH, I didn't realize the D1 had an optical input.
  
 I think I've resigned myself to needing a really good DAC to tell much difference.  Hence starting to look into USB solutions..


----------



## Dark_wizzie

Anybody here play Battlefield 3 and have their favorite audio setting?
 I was suggested Asus Essence One but I'm not spending 500+ ONLY for audio software technology. (Using HD800 with O2/Dac).
  
 HD800 should have best imaging ever, but I'm not that impressed.


----------



## benbenkr

stillhart said:


> Awesome, thanks!  Good to know it should work if I decide to go that route.  Note, I said I had trouble finding a "good" one.  I had the Schiit Optimodi and returned it due to not being able to tell much difference from my SB Omni's DAC.  I imagine the E17 and D1 are on the same level.  Tho TBH, I didn't realize the D1 had an optical input.
> 
> I think I've resigned myself to needing a really good DAC to tell much difference.  Hence starting to look into USB solutions..


 
  
 I'm using an Aune X1 Pro currently, which I can confidently say is one of the best $200+ all-in-one amp/DAC on the market currently. Comes with all inputs and outputs you'll pretty much ever need too — USB in, coax in, optical in, line-in (RCA), pre-amp out, all of which is a huge plus.
  
 Loving the WM8805 it uses as its DAC. It's lively, so energetic and yet it doesn't lose control over the bass. I love pairing the X1 Pro with the Fidelio X1 (pssh, they both have X1 in their names...), no more overy boomy bass, no more "recessed" mids. It's stunning stuff really.
 As a bonus, it supports DSD as well so if you have any DSD files that'll be nice.
  
 Really, I don't see the Schiit M&M stack or the FiiO E17+E09k to be that viable anymore when the Aune X1 Pro does all of that in one package.


----------



## AvroArrow

stillhart said:


> Awesome, thanks!  Good to know it should work if I decide to go that route.  Note, I said I had trouble finding a "good" one.  I had the Schiit Optimodi and returned it due to not being able to tell much difference from my SB Omni's DAC.  I imagine the E17 and D1 are on the same level.  Tho TBH, I didn't realize the D1 had an optical input.


 
  
 I'm not sure what your definition of a "good DAC" is, but I for one think the DAC in my X-Fi Titanium kinda sucks for music.  I can only get it to work with foobar's WASAPI drivers if I run it through the headphone jack so I may be double-amping it through my Asgard2/E09k but I can quite easily hear the difference between it and the D1/E17 and it is inferior to those 2 DACs for music on my K702 Annies.  I can't say for certain if the SB Omni's DAC is an upgrade to the X-Fi Titanium's DAC since I haven't heard the Omni.  The next step up would be something like the Bifrost Uber USB which is in the $550 bracket and that I'm not sure is going to sound 3.5x better than the D1/E17 to justify the 3.5x higher price.


----------



## Stillhart

avroarrow said:


> I'm not sure what your definition of a "good DAC" is, but I for one think the DAC in my X-Fi Titanium kinda sucks for music.  I can only get it to work with foobar's WASAPI drivers if I run it through the headphone jack so I may be double-amping it through my Asgard2/E09k but I can quite easily hear the difference between it and the D1/E17 and it is inferior to those 2 DACs for music on my K702 Annies.  I can't say for certain if the SB Omni's DAC is an upgrade to the X-Fi Titanium's DAC since I haven't heard the Omni.  The next step up would be something like the Bifrost Uber USB which is in the $550 bracket and that I'm not sure is going to sound 3.5x better than the D1/E17 to justify the 3.5x higher price.


 
  
 Well, the Omni is two generation newer than the X-Fi and it advertises how good its headphone jack is, so maybe they've made an effort to put in a decent DAC.  It certainly sounds noticeably better than my old Recon3D.  And like I said, I couldn't tell the difference between the Omni and the Modi without straining my ears. This was with my Q701, which is a detail monster, very similar to your Annies.


----------



## Arkanius

Hey guys I have a question:
  
 If CMSS-3D is set to Headphones + 7.1 sources (in Windows) and I play a stereo source, does it get any type of processing ?
 I ask this because whenever I hear music, swapping configs is bothersome. For example, for audio the best setting is Audio Creation Mode + 2/2.1 sources, which is Left/Right. 7.1 also has Left/Right, shouldn't CMSS-3D with a stereo source just send me the signal to the Left/Right channel?
  
 Or should I attempt something else to send my audio unaltered to me when listening to music? WASAPI perhaps? Or ASIO? (Only in Foobar though...)


----------



## Murder Mike

arkanius said:


> Or should I attempt something else to send my audio unaltered to me when listening to music? WASAPI perhaps? Or ASIO? (Only in Foobar though...)


 
 That's the easiest way to do it. Otherwise you'll be swapping settings all the time in my experience.


----------



## Arkanius

Yeah it seems I'll have to take the bite for other audio applications though. Automode switcher is also buggy as hell.
 Also, shouldn't WASAPI send audio directly to the DAC bypassing CMSS-3D? Right now, it seems it's going through the HTFR filters, even with WASAPI (Foobar in this case)


----------



## pric0

hello guys.. im a csgo player with titanium 7.1 (with SR850).
 i play for a long time with the same settings.. and there are things that i think that can improve.
 the thing that makes me wonder is.. is Dolby Digital live encoder should be on for the game? (the sound of movies with it sounds better, idk if its the same for games).
 and about ALchemy (which never worked for me = terrible ripping sound in game), i dont know if its needed for me.
 and what about the sound configuration in game?.. i have headphones on creative driver and 7.1 on windows. which works. but in-game it has only headphones and 5.1. which should i choose?
 i hear things yes. but it looks like i really need to focus my attention to sound and sometimes i fail at hearing things that when i used to play pure headphone/stereo i never failed.
  
 i dont know what to do cause i feel like im not getting the full use of my hardware.
 thanks for helping


----------



## rb3412

Hey, my Asus maximum hero vi has a supremefx sound card, specifically designed for their rog series. Any insighty anyone here could provide me regarding that as to if its a decent sound card or do I need to add an extra soundcard into my PC for gaming with surround sound?


----------



## NamelessPFG

pric0 said:


> hello guys.. im a csgo player with titanium 7.1 (with SR850). i play for a long time with the same settings.. and there are things that i think that can improve.
> the thing that makes me wonder is.. is Dolby Digital live encoder should be on for the game? (the sound of movies with it sounds better, idk if its the same for games).
> and about ALchemy (which never worked for me = terrible ripping sound in game), i dont know if its needed for me.
> and what about the sound configuration in game?.. i have headphones on creative driver and 7.1 on windows. which works. but in-game it has only headphones and 5.1. which should i choose?
> ...


 
  
 Dolby Digital Live is ONLY for S/PDIF output. If you're running analog, leave it off; there's no point in having it on.
  
 ALchemy is only needed for DirectSound3D games. CS:GO doesn't have DS3D enabled by default, nor does any other Source engine game; you need to sent "snd_legacy_surround" to 1 in the console.
  
 In-game, I'd go with 5.1/7.1, though it never hurts to experiment!
  


rb3412 said:


> Hey, my Asus maximum hero vi has a supremefx sound card, specifically designed for their rog series. Any insighty anyone here could provide me regarding that as to if its a decent sound card or do I need to add an extra soundcard into my PC for gaming with surround sound?


 
  
 Asus didn't license any virtual surround tech whatsoever for the Maximus VI lineup, which is bothersome.
  
 That means you have to hope that Razer Surround works for you or pitch in for a sound card.


----------



## hallonpaj

Do you think CMSS-3D is the best? Do you mind recommending a soundcard? Im gonna use my Dacmagic plus since fom what I read I can still use CMSS-3D if i do some settings? And still be able to use the DACs features and amp.
  
 Thanks


----------



## NamelessPFG

hallonpaj said:


> Do you think CMSS-3D is the best? Do you mind recommending a soundcard? Im gonna use my Dacmagic plus since fom what I read I can still use CMSS-3D if i do some settings? And still be able to use the DACs features and amp.
> 
> Thanks



I think it's the best so far. Not everyone agrees with me; we all have different ears.

With a nice external DAC like that, you can just get a cheap card like an X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) for the DSP effects and run S/PDIF to the DACMagic. It's pretty easy to set up.


----------



## hallonpaj

namelesspfg said:


> hallonpaj said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think CMSS-3D is the best? Do you mind recommending a soundcard? Im gonna use my Dacmagic plus since fom what I read I can still use CMSS-3D if i do some settings? And still be able to use the DACs features and amp.
> ...


 
Nice, thanks! 
Now I just gotta choose headphones. Would you go for the ad700x for just gaming? I basically only play csgo so I want the best possible positioning and able to hear footsteps. 


Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk


----------



## Murder Mike

hallonpaj said:


> Nice, thanks!
> Now I just gotta choose headphones. Would you go for the ad700x for just gaming? I basically only play csgo so I want the best possible positioning and able to hear footsteps.
> 
> 
> Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk


 
  
 If you're not concerned about music/movies/immersive gaming at all then they should serve you well for your intended purpose. What other headphones are available in your neck of the woods? The K612, Q701, or even the K702 would be solid alternatives. They will all be fairly close to each other as far as competitive sound goes, but the K612 and Q701 would give you a bit fuller overall sound without taking much of anything from the detail or soundstage.


----------



## hallonpaj

murder mike said:


> hallonpaj said:
> 
> 
> > Nice, thanks!
> ...



I think we have most of those here in Sweden. I wouldn't mind if I could get a pair that is good for music too, if I don't have to sacrifice any detail or soundstage for gaming. Maybe a pair of akgs would be better? Or the sony 900? Was thinking of Hifiman he400 too, but from the review I felt that they weren't that good for gaming?


Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk


----------



## Murder Mike

hallonpaj said:


> I think we have most of those here in Sweden. I wouldn't mind if I could get a pair that is good for music too, if I don't have to sacrifice any detail or soundstage for gaming. Maybe a pair of akgs would be better? Or the sony 900? Was thinking of Hifiman he400 too, but from the review I felt that they weren't that good for gaming?
> 
> 
> Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk


 
 If you can find the MA900 around the same price as the AKG K12 Pro or Q701, it would be worth considering. The HE400 is not something I would ever consider for gaming, based on comfort alone.


----------



## MonarchX

I sincerely apologize for making a double-post, but I wasn't sure whether I posted my other questions in the right threads. I was directed to several threads at once and unfortunately, I haven't found answers to the questions I had after doing some research.
  
 Anyway, below are my PC's audio components & their impedance:
 Realtek ALC892 Onboard sound @ 2ohms
 ASUS Xonar DGX  @ 10ohms w/ UNi drivers & updated Dolby Headphone 7.1 Shifter profile
 Sennheiser HD-280 Pro Monitoring headphones @ 64ohms
 Logitech Z-680 505W DD/DTS 5.1 speakers @ 8ohms 
  
 I'm a PC gamer who enjoys Dolby Headphone positional/surround audio/sound, but *I am **not an audiophile** with a good sense of hearing who can easily differentiate between good & bad sound quality. I can, however, tell when positional audio is not accurate in terms of sound direction and sound distance.* The main and the only audio/sound complaint I have is that Dolby Headphone technology has this reverberation / echo with any settings I try, but at the same time it makes the spatial/positional sound cues more differentiated/accurate to my ears than some other technologies I have tried, like CMSS-3D. I can always tell where the sound is coming from and how far away it is with Dolby Headphone. All this led me to try out something else I liked and found not only comparable, but also superior to Dolby Headphone - Creative's SBX Pro @ 30%. SBX Pro seems to produce the cleanest positional audio out of all available technologies/methods/licenses I have tried, like Dolby Headphone, CMSS-3D, Razer Kraken 7.1 Virtual Surround Engine, etc.
  
 There are several questions I would like someone to answer or just provide some feedback before I make a decision to buy Sound Blaster Z, which supports SBX Pro:
 - If anyone noticed, SBX Pro offers exactly the same features as THX TruStudio Pro did a few years back. The web page dedicated to SBX Pro has an identical address to the one that used to be dedicated to THX TruStudio Pro. *Some say that SBX Pro is simply a re-branded THX TruStudio Pro. Is that true?* My Realtek ALC892 onboard sound supports a freely available THX TruStudio Pro package & utilities at http://www.station-drivers.com/. If it sounds exactly or very close to SBX Pro, then I will not need to upgrade to Sound Blaster Z! In fact, I could even get rid of my ASUS Xonar DGX. *The most important factors for me are the positional accuracy and the clarity of the sound itself*. That is what makes up "sound quality" in my mind.
  
 - What about other technologies such as Dolby Digital Plus Advanced Audio (latest version), Dolby Home Theatre v4, and DTS Surround Sound Sensation? They all feature downmixing 5.7/7.1 multi-channel audio to 2.0 stereo for headphone output. There are other technologies/licenses that may do the same with Realtek ALC892 and here is the list:
 +Dolby SRS TruSurround HD
 +SRS Premium Sound 
 +Fortemedia SAM 
 +Synopsys Sonic Focus
 +DTS Surround Sensation | UltraPC 
 +DTS Connect
 I know that some of the above technologies, like DTS Connect are used to send 5.1 compressed sound over SPDIF, just like Dolby Digital Live, and they cannot be used for virtual surround sound in headphones. This is why I came here to inquire further. At first, I thought that all of these were just gimmicks, but then I learned that many people thought SBX Pro was the best, while others thought SBX Pro may have been nothing new and nothing more than THX TruStudio Pro, which I can get any time I want.
  
 I know onboard sound can suck at times, but the only real difference between all these soundcards when it comes to sound processing are the licenses that were applied to them. I am sure that just about any decent soundcard like ASUS Xonar DGX could support almost ALL of the features I listed, given they get licensed for them and supporting driver & software are provided. Take a look at Realtek ALC1150 - on some motherboards it supports basic Realtek-support audio technologies,, but on others that had their makers buy the right license, ALC1150 supports SBX Pro!!! Onboard sound has a higher chance of producing crackling sounds, noises, having all kinds of small distortions, but the issue is not with the chip itself or the processing. The issue is how the chip was integrated. Many new motherboards today isolate the sound chip to prevent crackling and distortions from occurring and doing so worked! My motherboard is rather old - ASUS P8Z77-V Pro, but I have no crackling sounds or noises or any issues with it, which is why I would rather use it with THX TruStudio Pro instead of buying Sound Blaster Z. 
  
Impedance is another aspect that may benefit me more if I stick to my onboard Realtek ALC892 sound chip. ALC892 is rated @ 2 ohms, which would perfectly match my Sennheiser HD-280 Pro's with 64ohms and would be a better match for my Logitech Z-680 505W DD/DTS 5.1 8ohms speakers. ASUS Xonar DGX is a 10ohms soundcard, which creates a slight mismatch with my 64ohms headphones, and a huge mismatch with my 8ohms speakers. Sound Blaster Z has even a higher impedance of 22ohms! I know impedance mismatch is not a big deal and my Sennheiser HD-280 Pro 64ohms headphone could handle it with distortions so mild that I'd never even know, but my speakers would probably sound crappy, wouldn't they?
  
 Anyway, I just need to know whether SBX Pro = THX TruStudio Pro by those who actually experienced both and whether there are other technologies superior or comparable to SBX Pro that are supported by my onboard chip. Only then I can decide if upgrading to Sound Blaster Z is worth it or not.
  
 Sorry for the long post! I will appreciate any feedback you can provide.
  
 Thank you!


----------



## Dillweed

For anybody else that has a Titanium HD, how big of a difference do you hear when switching the sampling rate from 48000 Hz to 96000 Hz?
  
 I've noticed ever since I got my DT 880s a few years ago and actually increased the sample rate, and then even more so more recently when I upgraded to my TH-600s, that there seems to be this relatively big change in the sound for my system when increasing the sample rate to 96 kHz, like voices and certain instruments have a harder "digital" or (overly?) processed/artificial sound at 48 kHz compared to 96 and they sound more "smoothed out" or natural at the higher rate, but the soundstage width also seems to get compressed a bit. The difference is especially noticeable to me when comparing in TV shows or movies, and if I compared it in a game I would probably notice the same kind of thing.
  
 I have no idea if this is normal behaviour for this card or for increasing the sampling rate from 48 to 96 on _any_ sound card, or if there's something wrong with the drivers or what. This also seemed to change on the newest drivers they released for Windows 8.1, and 96 kHz mostly just sounds like a slightly soundstage-compressed version of 48 kHz on those ones. I ended up switching back to the older drivers just because 96 kHz makes things sound more "natural" on them. I'm just trying to find out if this is normal or if there's something seriously messed up with my setup or what. Thanks, guys.
  
 I guess I should also mention, this is all on the Game mode with CMSS-3D on. I don't remember if it has the same drastic change on the other two modes, since I don't generally use them.


----------



## hallonpaj

namelesspfg said:


> hallonpaj said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think CMSS-3D is the best? Do you mind recommending a soundcard? Im gonna use my Dacmagic plus since fom what I read I can still use CMSS-3D if i do some settings? And still be able to use the DACs features and amp.
> ...


 The stores only sell sound blaster z is that a newer version or should I just find x-fi in an other store?



Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk


----------



## Haruspex

Anyone here has any experience with DTS Ultra PC II? Here is a screenshot of the Asus audio drivers on z97a (uses a Realtek ALC 892)
  
 http://imgur.com/c8zP0xw
  
 It seems to be a hrtf like cmss 3d or dolby headphone, i messed around with it a bit, don't know what to think about it yet.
  
 The problem i have with this and Razer Surround is that both install a separate audio device dedicated to headphones. Now, why this is a problem? Because they lock the headphones to stereo only and you can't change that in the drivers or in the windows sound settings and most games nowadays they detect your speakers configuration by looking at the drivers/windows sound settings.
  
 So i think that creates a problem with the hrtf technology because they change the game output to pure stereo and both the Razer Surround and the DTS Ultra PC II create a "virtual surround" sound using only two channels and not 5.1 or even 7.1 as intended. The only time that this isn't a problem is if the game has audio output settings inside the game, but most recent games they don't, honestly why they don't give that option it's beyond me.
  
 With the xfi and cmss 3d it doesn't work that way, you set your speakers to whatever value you want, for example 5.1, change your output device to headphones and finally enable cmss3d with the Creative drivers (actually the proper way to enable cmss 3d) and if you look at the Windows sound settings you can see that it's configured in 5.1 mode even if you set it to headphones via the creative drivers and actually you can test it there to see how it sounds.
  
 I think Dolby Headphone works in a similar way (although never tested it).
  
 Unless i am completely wrong and both the Razer Surround and DTS Ultra PC II automatically use 5.1/7.1 mode and you can't see it/change it.


----------



## Sahand75

What sound card do you recommend for me? I am getting a Philips Fidelio X1 headset. I currently have no dac or amp but I might buy that later down the road. Currently, I need to get a good sound card as my X1's will be used in competitive gaming a lot and a sound card would majorly help.


----------



## hallonpaj

murder mike said:


> If you can find the MA900 around the same price as the AKG K12 Pro or Q701, it would be worth considering. The HE400 is not something I would ever consider for gaming, based on comfort alone.


 

 I have a gift certificate from work in a special store. But they dont seem to have so many highend headphones. Im gonna list some of them and maybe you or someone has heard any of them and can comment.
 * Top AKG is K618 and 619
 * Beyer T50P and T70P
 * Sony MDR1RB and MDR1RNC
 * Philips X1 and A5PRO
 And the usual bose, beats etc
  
 To me nothing seem really interesting. Maybe the Beyer T70P but from what I see the T70 is for home use and T70p for mobile use?


----------



## Murder Mike

hallonpaj said:


> I have a gift certificate from work in a special store. But they dont seem to have so many highend headphones. Im gonna list some of them and maybe you or someone has heard any of them and can comment.
> * Top AKG is K618 and 619
> * Beyer T50P and T70P
> * Sony MDR1RB and MDR1RNC
> ...


 
  
 Do they have the K612 Pro? The K618 and K619 look like DJ headphones. The X1 are always a safe choice if you don't mind the slightly bassy sound signature. I don't know enough about the rest of them to make a comment. The T70P might be worth looking into though if you wanted to go that high.


----------



## hallonpaj

Bought a Sound blaster Z. Can someone help me with the settings?
 I cant get the SBX pro studio over the toslink to my dac. Only normal sound. Is it even possible or did a mess up buying a Sound blaster Z?
 Appreciate help!


----------



## hallonpaj

murder mike said:


> Do they have the K612 Pro? The K618 and K619 look like DJ headphones. The X1 are always a safe choice if you don't mind the slightly bassy sound signature. I don't know enough about the rest of them to make a comment. The T70P might be worth looking into though if you wanted to go that high.


 

 They dont have the K612. I read the review from madlust of the x1, and they seem pretty interesting, guess I only got X1 and T70p to choose from if i buy form that store.


----------



## Viceroy

Currently using:
 Creative X-Fi Titanium (non-hd), no emi shield
 Fidelio X1
  
 When using the V-MODA BoomPro Mic cable or just a standard aux cable, I get a lot of outside noise (probably from my video cards). The strange part is I only get this when it's in game mode, When I'm in entertainment mode, it seems to go away. This also happened when I had a TiHD.
  
 Would an amp such as a Fiio E09K solve this?
  
 I've had the ZXR before and there was no issues so I guess that EMI shield helped. But I want to keep CMSS-3D.


----------



## Murder Mike

viceroy said:


> Currently using:
> Creative X-Fi Titanium (non-hd), no emi shield
> Fidelio X1
> 
> ...


 
 What outside noise? Like stuff around you or hissing/interference? If it's noise around you, you'll have to check off one of the options for playing back what you're saying as the mic is probably picking it up.
  
 If it's interference, are you able to move your card? You could also try a Recon3D USB. It has CMSS-3D and is external. That might solve the problem as well.


----------



## Viceroy

murder mike said:


> What outside noise? Like stuff around you or hissing/interference? If it's noise around you, you'll have to check off one of the options for playing back what you're saying as the mic is probably picking it up.
> 
> If it's interference, are you able to move your card? You could also try a Recon3D USB. It has CMSS-3D and is external. That might solve the problem as well.


 
  
 It's hissing/interference.
  
 Unfortunately I'm unable to move my card. I'll take a peek at the Recon3D USB. Thanks!


----------



## Viceroy

It seems like the Recon3D USB's only do THX, or am I missing something?


----------



## Murder Mike

viceroy said:


> It seems like the Recon3D USB's only do THX, or am I missing something?


 
  
 Damn, looks like I remembered incorrectly. This was the only external card I could find that had it. Sorry about that.


----------



## Viceroy

murder mike said:


> Damn, looks like I remembered incorrectly. This was the only external card I could find that had it. Sorry about that.


 
  
 Thanks! Appreciate it.


----------



## benbenkr

hallonpaj said:


> Bought a Sound blaster Z. Can someone help me with the settings?
> I cant get the SBX pro studio over the toslink to my dac. Only normal sound. Is it even possible or did a mess up buying a Sound blaster Z?
> Appreciate help!


 
  
 Follow these steps, every one of them.
  
 1) Windows > Sound panel > SBZ Speakers > Set Default
 2) Configure SBZ Speakers > Select 5.1 > do not select Full range > Next and apply
 3) SBZ Control Panel > Advanced Features > Tick Play stereo mix to digital output
 4) Enable SBX Surround > Adjust slider level to your preference
 5) Make sure your input settings on your external DAC is correct.
  
*DO NOT select SBZ Digital Out as your default*, you will get audio but you will not get any of the DSP enhancements from the card.
  
 If watching movies, make sure your movies already has multi-channel audio. If playing games, make sure you set the audio to 5.1 in-game if the game hasn't already selected it for you.


----------



## hallonpaj

benbenkr said:


> Follow these steps, every one of them.
> 
> 1) Windows > Sound panel > SBZ Speakers > Set Default
> 2) Configure SBZ Speakers > Select 5.1 > do not select Full range > Next and apply
> ...


 
 In sound blaster pro studio do I select headphones, stereo or 5.1 surround?


----------



## benbenkr

hallonpaj said:


> In sound blaster pro studio do I select headphones, stereo or 5.1 surround?


 
  
 5.1.
 They'll already be in 5.1 if you selected it in Windows, so don't go and mess with it. The CP is finnicky and switching it to headphones back and forth will bork things. Has been happening ever since the X-Fi days.
  
 Like I said, follow the steps and don't mess with anything else if you don't know what you're doing. You'll get SBX the way it should be.


----------



## AvroArrow

viceroy said:


> It's hissing/interference.
> 
> Unfortunately I'm unable to move my card. I'll take a peek at the Recon3D USB. Thanks!


 
  
 If you want CMSS-3D over USB then try tracking down an old/used X-Fi Surround 5.1 (non-Pro, model:SB1090).  It only has Entertainment mode though, no Game or Audio Creation modes.  Alternatively, have you tried gaming in Entertainment mode on your X-Fi Ti?


----------



## Viceroy

avroarrow said:


> If you want CMSS-3D over USB then try tracking down an old/used X-Fi Surround 5.1 (non-Pro, model:SB1090).  It only has Entertainment mode though, no Game or Audio Creation modes.  Alternatively, have you tried gaming in Entertainment mode on your X-Fi Ti?


 
  
 Yeah I've been looking at those. At the moment I have been gaming in entertainment mode on the Titanium. It's not too bad.


----------



## SaLX

@NamelessPFG : Is that indeed you playing multiplayer Star Citizen??


----------



## NamelessPFG

salx said:


> @NamelessPFG
> : Is that indeed you playing multiplayer Star Citizen??



I have yet to play Arena Commander MULTIPLAYER, but I did stream it on Twitch shortly after it was released and they pushed through the maps. That predates the multiplayer update they just pushed out.

You didn't see any people impersonating me-or, worse, hijacking my accounts-out there, did you?


----------



## SaLX

@NamelessPFG .. 
  
 I saw a MP vid on Youtube yesterday where another player was called 'Nameless' (it was from a streamed vid with Nyaandere, the Romantics guy and others). I wrongly connected the dots as I'd seen a couple of your posts (same name) on the RSI forums; I thought that it could've been you, but it wasn't. And yeah.. hijacking accounts is scary. I've got a tortuous login/pass to type in everytime.
  
 This game will be huge (he says, after pledging a 315p and a Constellation) 
  
 Nameless:_ One day I will blow you up!_
  
 SaL
  
 *Edit* - I'll lob in a few pics of the Constellation if you don't mind for a bit of PR. You can walk around inside _all_ the available ships - and fight/fly in them at the same time in a huge sandbox MMO. Release in late 2015 or 2016 so....


----------



## NamelessPFG

Oh, okay. Note that there's another "Nameless" in the Star Citizen community, no relation; that's why I append random letters to distinguish myself from all the other Namelesses on the Internet. There are a surprising amount, trust me.

Most of my posts in the forums are in the Hardware section; I rarely venture outside there.

I should note, I built my new computer last year in anticipation of Arena Commander's release more than anything!

My Super Hornet and Constellation will be waiting for you out there in the 'verse!


----------



## SaLX

Yeah Nameless.. only saw you there when I was investigating controllers in that subforum. CH or x55?? I think I'll go the former myself.
  
 I flatly refuse to say the "'Verse" btw - I hate that term. A_nybody_ says that and they will become cold dead floating and badly butchered meat in the cruel vacuum of space. Not a pretty sight - no way. Anyways... back on topic.. what do you think of the sounds in AC Nameless? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 (*SaL_Berman *is my RSI name: remember it well.........)
  
 PR again. If there's enough of you (like _a lot_) you could potentially* be flying this at >1km long and completely modelled and functional on the inside:
  

  
 * Highly unlikely unless you're in a large organisation with lots of luck.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Well, guess that means you're about to horribly, grisly murder, oh, I don't know, a whopping 90% minimum of the Star Citizen community on the use of that one term. "PU" for "Persistent Universe" makes for a horrible-sounding initialism.
  
 Between CH and Saitek? CH every time, if you can afford both. Like I keep saying, it's not too uncommon to find Fighterstick/Pro Throttle/Pro Pedals setups for well under $200 shipped, if you don't mind buying used. I even saw a set sell for about $125 on SimHQ B/S/T once!
  
 And yeah, I'll eat my hat if anyone gets to own a Bengal carrier like that! I don't think they even sell those as funding pledge incentives like they do the Idris frigates, and those already cost upwards of $1,000 a pop if you even have the CHANCE to buy one! But hey, a fully operational carrier that you can walk around inside all FPS-style? That's more or less what I've wanted for years right there.
  
 Only thing is, I plan on making my virtual living as a privateer/freelancer, not a military/organizational grunt. That and huge carriers generally don't mix, but on the other hand, having a ship that could actually carry my F7C-M Super Hornet around beyond what its short range allows would be nice.
  
 One of the ships I really want actually has yet to be designed beyond a short description: the Anvil Carrack military exploration vessel, unlocked in a stretch goal a while back. While deep-space exploration is what I intend to use the Constellation for, I have a feeling that the Carrack might be better-designed to survive the all-too-likely chance of jumping smack into a Vanduul base or something.


----------



## SaLX

The "PU" lol... ok.. that's just as bad. I get your point 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 CH Products - thanks for sealing the deal on that for me. Shame there's no twist to the stick, but I guess that full analogue mini-stick on the throttle could be bound to that with a modifier. I'd also hope to use it as a POV or for 6DOF strafing with further modifiers if at all possible. Shame that there are none available in the UK... even with Ebay UK I'd be lucky. Importing from the US looks like the way to go. Sigh.
  
 A lonewolf eh! I'm in a medium org (80 members) and they have no plans to expand beyond that.. these huge orgs look like you'd be just a number. And yes.. the Carrack looks wonderful. I'd happily get one whenever they get released to us. 
  
 See you in the _Universe_...
  
 *Edit*: Your comments on controllers (on RSI) are excellent btw.


----------



## gerpogi

Hi guys! I have a question, How does the xonar u7 compare with the sb omni? I currently have the omni but I have been interested in the u7 for a while now and I just wanted to do more research before buying one. Thanks!


----------



## genclaymore

Keep your omni you have something very good, If you use virtual headphone then you have SBX which actually works. Where the U7 shares the same software suite as the phoebus and Diamond XSHD71 and has Xear3D surround max which doesn't even work at all, It might as well not be listed in the panel and then Dolby Home theater v4.   It be a waste of money going to a U7 from a omni any way and you might kick your self along the way after you do it. I tried every thing to get Xear3D surround max to work when I had that diamond card, it was like the function wasn't finished.


----------



## SoAmusing777

Somebody have a list of games that support OpenAL, DirectSound3D, or the Miles Sound System? I'll be getting a X-FI Titanium HD soon and would like to take advantage of it.


----------



## genclaymore

Miles sound system games are usually easy to spot when you see the dll for it in the game folder.Same for Direct sound 3D especially if your using surround as those games will output in 2 channel til you use alchemy.Openal games usully have either openAl.dll or FmodEX which uses OpenAl. Trying to list them all will take forever. Oh yea and alot of games are using that nasty Xaudio2 mess too.


----------



## SoAmusing777

genclaymore said:


> Miles sound system games are usually easy to spot when you see the dll for it in the game folder.Same for Direct sound 3D especially if your using surround as those games will output in 2 channel til you use alchemy.Openal games usully have either openAl.dll or FmodEX which uses OpenAl. Trying to list them all will take forever. Oh yea and alot of games are using that nasty Xaudio2 mess too.


 

 There needs to be a list. I want to experience 3d audio! Guess I'll just have to play games that are worth playing and hope they do. What's Xaudio2?


----------



## gerpogi

genclaymore said:


> Keep your omni you have something very good, If you use virtual headphone then you have SBX which actually works. Where the U7 shares the same software suite as the phoebus and Diamond XSHD71 and has Xear3D surround max which doesn't even work at all, It might as well not be listed in the panel and then Dolby Home theater v4.   It be a waste of money going to a U7 from a omni any way and you might kick your self along the way after you do it. I tried every thing to get Xear3D surround max to work when I had that diamond card, it was like the function wasn't finished.




thank you for the advice sir! I've only been using the omni with my fidelio x1 most of the time, and my beats pro once in a while


----------



## hallonpaj

I have a discount card in a store I want to use. The 2 headphones I got to choose from is:
  
 Philips X1
 Sennheiser G4me one
  
 Wich one would you recommend for pc gaming? I already have a mic so dont care about mic. Sound only.
 And is G4me One strictly for gaming or can you use it for music too? I already have a pair of Sennheiser RS180 so they might be to similar?


----------



## SoAmusing777

How do people feel about the HE-500 for gaming? I was also looking at the AKG K712 Pro and the Alpha Dogs.


----------



## Orihalcon

I have a suggestion...could some of the settings for the STX and Creative Z series of cards be added into the first post?

I can bet that that is something many readers are after...myself included 

As such I'll be using either an AKG k612 pro or Q701 with a Z series card with an external amp (Magni seems like the front runner at present) for 99% gaming.

From this thread I've learned that I can output from the headphone jack to the Magni amp with 3.55mm jack to RCA splitter while retaining the surround sound processing as well as not experiencing any distortion due to double amping.

From a settings perspective I'm still a bit confused on what needs to be set where to what and which games require config tweaks to get the best surround cues. 

But I'm slowly reading all the pages. 60/199 done so far 

Thanks to the OP for this thread! So guys please share some settings 


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## genclaymore

soamusing777 said:


> How do people feel about the HE-500 for gaming? I was also looking at the AKG K712 Pro and the Alpha Dogs.


 
 You might have better luck with that question in the HE-500 thread. Unless one of them comes over here to this thread and help you. I should say one that actually use it for gaming too.


----------



## SoAmusing777

genclaymore said:


> You might have better luck with that question in the HE-500 thread. Unless one of them comes over here to this thread and help you. I should say one that actually use it for gaming too.


 

 All right. Where exactly is that thread?
 And you never told me what Xaudio2 is.
 Also, does anybody know any good games off the top of their head that support 3d audio?


----------



## genclaymore

soamusing777 said:


> All right. Where exactly is that thread?
> And you never told me what Xaudio2 is.
> Also, does anybody know any good games off the top of their head that support 3d audio?


 
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/551345/hifiman-he-500-he-as-in-high-end-proving-to-be-an-enjoyable-experience-in-listening this one seem to be the most used thread for the HE-500's.
  
 Also Xaudio2 is the poor replacement for the Direct sound hal, It would had been better if MS just simply pushed Devs into using just OpenAL instead of giving us Xaudio2.I can't stand Xaudio2 api as it don't sound right where your using stereo or using surround sound, the sound usually be off or the bass is messed up.
 Also The unreal engine 3 games tend to have a option in their engine.ini to change the game from using Xaudio2 to OpenAl, as it be on Xaudio2 by default. its a simple line change. AudioDeviceClass=Xaudio2.ALXaudio2Device to AudioDeviceClass=ALAudio.ALAudioDevice and the game will switch to using Openal But only if both of those are listed in the engine.ini, UE using games that has those options are Borderlands2, UT4,Painkiller Hell and damnation,Rise of the triad remake also  Mass effect 2/3 the last time I checked and a lot of Unreal engine 3 games. Some UE3 games doesn't have that command line to do it, I don't remember which ones dont. I recall that battlefield 3 is OpenAL besides Battlefield 2. Doom 3 is OpenA as wellL, so is Quake 3/4,killing floor,UT2k4, off the top of my head and from the games I have installed.


----------



## SoAmusing777

genclaymore said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/551345/hifiman-he-500-he-as-in-high-end-proving-to-be-an-enjoyable-experience-in-listening this one seem to be the most used thread for the HE-500's.
> 
> Also Xaudio2 is the poor replacement for the Direct sound hal, It would had been better if MS just simply pushed Devs into using just OpenAL instead of giving us Xaudio2.I can't stand Xaudio2 api as it don't sound right where your using stereo or using surround sound, the sound usually be off or the bass is messed up.
> Also The unreal engine 3 games tend to have a option in their engine.ini to change the game from using Xaudio2 to OpenAl, as it be on Xaudio2 by default. its a simple line change. AudioDeviceClass=Xaudio2.ALXaudio2Device to AudioDeviceClass=ALAudio.ALAudioDevice and the game will switch to using Openal But only if both of those are listed in the engine.ini, UE using games that has those options are Borderlands2, UT4,Painkiller Hell and damnation,Rise of the triad remake also  Mass effect 2/3 the last time I checked and a lot of Unreal engine 3 games. Some UE3 games doesn't have that command line to do it, I don't remember which ones dont. I recall that battlefield 3 is OpenAL besides Battlefield 2. Doom 3 is OpenA as wellL, so is Quake 3/4,killing floor,UT2k4, off the top of my head and from the games I have installed.


 

 Thank you!

 I concur, and ah, does sound crappy.

 Awesome. Wow, even Bf3, surprising.


----------



## genclaymore

soamusing777 said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I concur, and ah, does sound crappy.
> 
> Awesome. Wow, even Bf3, surprising.


 

 Actually i was wrong about BF3, It uses software sound API that dice made and not OpenAL, Might be able to get around that using alchemy but I not sure as I don't have my dad's X-FI Xtreme gamer on hand to try.


----------



## Viceroy

viceroy said:


> Currently using:
> Creative X-Fi Titanium (non-hd), no emi shield
> Fidelio X1
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Does anyone know if using an amp out of a X-Fi Titanium (hd or non) would solve the hissing/interference sounds? Or would it just make it louder?
  
  
 I've tried a few external USB sound cards, and none of them really sit well with me. I've used:
  
 X-Fi Surround 5.1 SB1090: it has CMSS-3D, but it's in entertainment mode only. It's missing MacroFX and Elevation Filter from game mode.
 Creative Omni: With alchemy enabled, SBX gets disabled when I play the game


----------



## GoldenboyXD

viceroy said:


> Does anyone know if using an amp out of a X-Fi Titanium (hd or non) would solve the hissing/interference sounds? Or would it just make it louder?


 
 I would like to know as well... I'm using a non-HD Titanium and i think the solution for this is to get an external DAC/AMP. While using an AMP will just amplify it?


----------



## Silverwind

Just picked up a pair of Fidelio X1 headphones.
  
 Haven't picked up any amplification running off RealTek onboard sound.  About 90% sold on getting a soundblaster Z to power these. I play a lot of half-life2/source based games like L4D2 and TF2.  Also games like Shogun total war, bioshock, X-COM, Fallout new vegas, a good mix.  I listen to music maybe 20% of the time, mainly while I surf and not during gaming.
  
 Anyone have some comments to toss at me before I seal the deal?


----------



## Viceroy

silverwind said:


> Just picked up a pair of Fidelio X1 headphones.
> 
> Haven't picked up any amplification running off RealTek onboard sound.  About 90% sold on getting a soundblaster Z to power these. I play a lot of half-life2/source based games like L4D2 and TF2.  Also games like Shogun total war, bioshock, X-COM, Fallout new vegas, a good mix.  I listen to music maybe 20% of the time, mainly while I surf and not during gaming.
> 
> Anyone have some comments to toss at me before I seal the deal?


 
  
 Depends. How close will the SBZ sit to your video card(s)? And are they loud? I had a hissing/interference issue with the Sound Blaster Zx whenever my video cards started to work hard.


----------



## Silverwind

viceroy said:


> Depends. How close will the SBZ sit to your video card(s)? And are they loud? I had a hissing/interference issue with the Sound Blaster Zx whenever my video cards started to work hard.


 
  
 The SBZ will be one slot from my (one) radeon 7950.  No interference now using the onboard sound and the 7950.  The fans are very loud at 100% but usually run 30-40%.


----------



## Viceroy

silverwind said:


> The SBZ will be one slot from my (one) radeon 7950.  No interference now using the onboard sound and the 7950.  The fans are very loud at 100% but usually run 30-40%.


 
  
 My guess is you should be OK.


----------



## hallonpaj

orihalcon said:


> I have a suggestion...could some of the settings for the STX and Creative Z series of cards be added into the first post?
> 
> I can bet that that is something many readers are after...myself included
> 
> ...


 

 I got the settings in an answer 1-5 pages back in this thread =)


----------



## Orihalcon

hallonpaj said:


> I got the settings in an answer 1-5 pages back in this thread =)


 
 Thank you!
  
 Maybe I should have started back to front...doh!


----------



## SoAmusing777

Anyone have any suggestions for my next headphone? I'm thinking HE-500. I want something like the AKG k712/k702 annie, but just with more bass. The AKG's pretty much excel in mids, highs, and all the things you'd want for gaming (soundstage width and depth/airiness). Neutral headphones are my type. Would like them to be great for gaming as well.


----------



## Silverwind

Just picked up a set of Fidelio X1 headphones. Using Realtek motherboard audio until I can get something more fitting. 

My goal is to have good surround gaming and good amplification. 

Should I get soundblaster z with external amp, soundblaster z by itself, or soundblaster Zxr?

The X1 headphones are 32 ohm, is the impedance of 22+. Ohms of the soundblaster z going to impact the sound quality?

Budget is about 100-200.


----------



## Murder Mike

silverwind said:


> Just picked up a set of Fidelio X1 headphones. Using Realtek motherboard audio until I can get something more fitting.
> 
> My goal is to have good surround gaming and good amplification.
> 
> ...


 
 Get the Z for now and see if you like it. The Omni is another option. You can add an amp later if you want more oomph.


----------



## imrazor

silverwind said:


> Just picked up a set of Fidelio X1 headphones. Using Realtek motherboard audio until I can get something more fitting.
> 
> My goal is to have good surround gaming and good amplification.
> 
> ...


 

 The Z is an excellent card, for gaming or music. The rear headphone port supports headphones up to 600 ohms, if you're concerned about the impedance. It drives my 200 ohm TDK ST800s beautifully. At least in theory, you shouldn't need an external amp with the Z.
  
 One caveat: for whatever reason, surround gaming is completely lost on me. I can tell little difference between the surround mode and standard stereo. But that goes for any soundcard/headphone combo I've tried.
  
 One gotcha with the Z: don't even bother trying to get it working with Linux. It sounds better than Windows when it works, but it's way too much trouble.


----------



## Silverwind

Thanks, that is a good idea with the OMNI. I like the USB, I can use it on desktop or laptop. I will be using win7 mainly.

Is the sound quality identical from the sound blaster z to the OMNI?


----------



## Terror Twist

Hello, I was wondering if anyone here could help me out. I live in Canada and I want to get some new headphones and a DAC/AMP or sound card for around $500 in total give or take. And I am having a difficult time figuring out what I should be getting.
  
 I will be using this set-up primarily for PC gaming, music, movies and just general computer use. Headphones I have had my eye on are MA900, Fidelio X1, hifiman he 400, hd600 and akg 712 pro. Are these what I should be looking for or are there better options for my needs? Also I am really unsure on the whole sound card vs dac/amp thing. Like what is the better option for what I will be using them for and what sound card or dac/amp should I be looking to get? Someone told me the claro halo is the best sound card and it's better then any dac/amps in it's price range but I have heard from other people that a dac/amp is the way to go such as the Aune t1, o2 odac or the modi/magni. What should I do!? Any help at all would be much appreciated.


----------



## genclaymore

The first thing you should ask your self is what sound signature are you looking for, like explain the type of sound you want to us, so we can help you better.  As for sound card's the only reason to get one is if you want the features of the sound card like  surround headphone, and other features.  If you don't care for any of that. Then you can just get a external dac amp or a all in one unit. If you do want the sound card features then a sound blaster Z is a good choice as it usually goes for 60-65 dollars on ebay, But I don't know how much that is in Canadian.
  
  If you want the gaming functions that badly, I would just say grab a cheap sound card that has optical with the option to send stereo mix to optical and then spend the rest on the headphones and then external dac and amp or all in one unit. That way you get your basic functions for gaming while you get the audio performance for your general and over all listening. This what I currently do now with my DGX sending dolby headphone to my Bifrost uber which I using a LD MK2 2.0 tube amp with my beyerdynamic T90's when I game. I have used the Audio-GD NFB15.32 which the NFB15 replaces and i found it to be a good dac/amp combo unit which does a good job with amping headphones. besides usb, it does have optical and coaxial inputs. You might be able to find a older NFB12.0 or the 15.32 in the sell section for cheap if your lucky. The Aune T1 is a good choice and you have the optional choice to change the tube to a different sound to change the sound signature.
  
 Sounds like the said person never used any other sound cards other then the claro halo or don't realize there been other sound cards to come to the market since that card came out, like the Z series including ZXR. The claro halo is using the same chip as the Xonar STX and ST with optional H6 board which offers the same outputs as the claro as well Headphone amp and at some cases can be found cheaper like the STX and both have op-amp sockets for rolling op-amps if you are into that.
  
 As for it being better then the dac/amp in the price range, which ones has he been looking at as there plenty in the claro price ranges that can out perform the card sound performance wise and ones that can't. The only thing the claro has going for it really is Dolby headphone and muiti channel output. Which the Razer surround software can do for external dac/amp's and it free. If your gonna spend that much on the claro halo you might as well add a tad more and get a ZXR at this point or time unless you find a ZXR that is the same price as the claro halo.


----------



## Terror Twist

If I had to guess I think the "balanced" sound signature might be what I want. Especially since I hear the balanced sound signature is good for gaming in addition to being good for music and such or no? At the same time I don't want a headphone that's boring to listen to and such. For the record the type of music I listen too for the most part is rock, alternative rock, pop, techo, and trance. I listen to other genres also but those are the ones I probably listen to the most if I had to guess. Also comfort is very important to me in headphones I hate headphones that clamp and put pressure on my head. I honestly am starting to feel like the MA900 are for me since they seem to fit the criteria I want and they are the cheapest of the headphones I mentioned in my previous post. I found some for $236 with free shipping on ebay.ca not sure if that is a good price for them or not though. So I am wondering if these MA900 are the right choice for me based on my needs or are there much better options available to me that I am not seeing?
  
 I am not too familiar with the features of sound cards but the surround sound feature does sound appealing to me. But that depends if it's actually good though and not just some gimmick. I have no idea though since I have never tried it. As far as the whole sound card vs dac/amp thing what I mainly want is the best sound quality I can get with my budget. And from what I have heard dac/amps are better for overall sound quality or no? But at the same time I also want the surround sound feature of the sound card if it is actually good and truly is worth it.


----------



## Razer X

Long time reader, first time poster. I just want to make sure I am following along. I have the Xonar DGX and I'm planning to get the AKG 712 Pros, primarily for gaming/movies but also for music. I'm thinking I will want an amp (and maybe a dac?) to help power the AKGs. I had been looking at the Magni as it seems to be highly thought of here, but now I'm wondering if I should get something that uses optical? I definitely want to make use of the Dolby Headphone. Would it be best to go for something like the X-fi HD or can someone recommend an amp and/or dac for this setup?


----------



## genclaymore

If you want the features of the DGX, then get a Modi optical connect it to your DGX optical and enable PCM in your Asus panel to send over Dolby headphone to the Modi dac them  connect it to either a magni amp or Vali amp. Its the same thing I do with my DGX and my Bifrost uber+ LD MK2 2.0 setup.


----------



## Razer X

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I think I will do just that.


----------



## Gamer-Fi

Hey peeps,
  
 So I finally caved in and got the fidelio x1s after extensive reading. I have the mixamp pro 2013 to go with them for the ps4.
  I am thinking about buying the Sound Blaster Omni Surround 5.1 external usb soundcard for my pc. If I used the optical out on the soundcard could I plug that into the mixamp pro?
 When im using the pc for gaming or High def movies I would prefer to use the SBX Prostudio than the Dolby Headphonewhich the astro mixamp uses. Although I would like to use the mixamp as a kind of bypass amp so I could control the volume without walking to the pc.
 Does the mixamp have an option to let the SBX sound pass through it without changing the signal to dolby headphone?
 And finally does anyone know of a better external soundcard which will allow me to game and watch movies in 5.1 on my home cinema setup, as well as in virtual surround on my fidelios?
  
 Basically i cant be bothered getting up and walking over to the omni by the pc to adjust the volume when im on the couch using my tv as a monitor for games or movies.


----------



## RXShadow

Hey guys,
  
 Is the Xonar U3 still worth considering or is it frowned upon? I was considering pairing it with the E17. It felt like a good option to start with as I'm not much into Competitive FPS and was looking into a setup that would work well with gaming and movies in one package.
  
 Also, is SBX or DH any worth going for movies or are they specifically meant for gaming only?
  
 Considering my case, would you guys recommend any other sound card or DAC/Amp, preferably something external? I currently have an HD558 and I've been looking into a setup that is worthwhile and dependable without needing to upgrade much further, as I plan on saving for different headphones later down the road (currently considering the K701 or Q701 for the moment until anything better shows up later). Would be appreciate to see your recommendations.


----------



## genclaymore

I don't know if you are in the USA or outside of it but you can find Sound blaster Omni at amazon and ebay between 40-60 dollars which would be a better choice then the U3. I also seen sound blaster Z's for around 50ish on ebay if your lucky. I have had a Asus Xonar DG and a DGX both are good card's but there better options which will help you in the long run since the Z and the omni headphone amp will be able to handle more headphone's giving you more choices. Where the DG/DGX headphone amp wont do justice to say headphones like DT770/880/990 pro-250 even tho some people like the combination, Where orders like them more with something that able to handle them more. If you do decide to get a AKG K701/Q701 it should do fine with the DG and DGX it just that later down on the road you might get something else that may not pair well with the DG/DGX.
  
 Dolby headphone does work when it set up correctly, but at times i can find it bland in alot of game's where others it work nice and both depends on what headphones you are using. it worked nice with the AKG K702 and DT880 premium 600 for me, it didn't for A900X and DT880 pro-250 and T90 and the results can be very different for different people.Also Dolby headphone has echo even the ref mode has some echo while the mode 2 has alot of it and it uses echo to do virtual surround and you might not like that. SBX surround headphone may be a better bet for you since it doesn't use any form of echo, But you won't know for sure til you try it, as you might actually like dolby headphone or you might like SBX surround headphone, But both work correctly when the windows speaker settings and games are set to 5.1 with the control panel for either cards set to headphone.
  
 The good thing about going external dac/amp that you can use a cheap sound card optical output to send something like Dolby headphone or SBX surround headphone into the dac and have both world's and that is a very common setup that people tend to do, if they want both Great audio and the Gaming function's.But most people tend to just pick one and the other.


----------



## Orihalcon

On the topic of the omni. I was considering getting a SB-Z, but only being on a M-Atx motherboard this limits future SLI/CF options I was looking at the omni. I see it connects via USB, so my question is is there any sound distortion or interference from the USB source?

In my case the omni would feed via optical into a Schiit Modi and from there to a Schiit Vali into a pair of Q701's.

Anyone here running a similar setup? I would love to hear your opinions and experience.


----------



## genclaymore

I have a omni going next week, I let you know if i have any issues with it.


----------



## Orihalcon

genclaymore said:


> I have a omni going next week, I let you know if i have any issues with it.




Thank you! Would really appreciate it.


----------



## RXShadow

genclaymore said:


> I don't know if you are in the USA or outside of it but you can find Sound blaster Omni at amazon and ebay between 40-60 dollars which would be a better choice then the U3. I also seen sound blaster Z's for around 50ish on ebay if your lucky. I have had a Asus Xonar DG and a DGX both are good card's but there better options which will help you in the long run since the Z and the omni headphone amp will be able to handle more headphone's giving you more choices. Where the DG/DGX headphone amp wont do justice to say headphones like DT770/880/990 pro-250 even tho some people like the combination, Where orders like them more with something that able to handle them more. If you do decide to get a AKG K701/Q701 it should do fine with the DG and DGX it just that later down on the road you might get something else that may not pair well with the DG/DGX.
> 
> Dolby headphone does work when it set up correctly, but at times i can find it bland in alot of game's where others it work nice and both depends on what headphones you are using. it worked nice with the AKG K702 and DT880 premium 600 for me, it didn't for A900X and DT880 pro-250 and T90 and the results can be very different for different people.Also Dolby headphone has echo even the ref mode has some echo while the mode 2 has alot of it and it uses echo to do virtual surround and you might not like that. SBX surround headphone may be a better bet for you since it doesn't use any form of echo, But you won't know for sure til you try it, as you might actually like dolby headphone or you might like SBX surround headphone, But both work correctly when the windows speaker settings and games are set to 5.1 with the control panel for either cards set to headphone.
> 
> The good thing about going external dac/amp that you can use a cheap sound card optical output to send something like Dolby headphone or SBX surround headphone into the dac and have both world's and that is a very common setup that people tend to do, if they want both Great audio and the Gaming function's.But most people tend to just pick one and the other.


 
  
 Thanks for the advice. It's not easy for me to decide on a virtual surround considering this is the very first time I'm getting involved in such things. From the samples in youtube videos, I found both DH and SBX quite adequate really, but I'm pretty sure the experience is different once I actually go ingame with them.
  
 I'm aware the DG/DGX are quite low on amp, which is why I considered pairing a U3 with a FiiO E17, which are also quite relatively easy for me to get. I don't live in the US, but I can take a look around and see if I can find a way to get the omni. The omni does seem very nice, with a good enough DAC/Amp to get 558 going. It seems the drivers are relatively better for windows as well. Having said that, I'll probably go for omni and give SBX a try. I could always add an amp to it later once I get another headphone. If not satisfied, I could always give the U3 + E17 a shot and try DH-2 as they're not expensive.
  
 Once I get the purchase done and try it out, I'll also give my impressions.


----------



## benbenkr

orihalcon said:


> On the topic of the omni. I was considering getting a SB-Z, but only being on a M-Atx motherboard this limits future SLI/CF options I was looking at the omni. I see it connects via USB, so my question is is there any sound distortion or interference from the USB source?
> 
> In my case the omni would feed via optical into a Schiit Modi and from there to a Schiit Vali into a pair of Q701's.
> 
> Anyone here running a similar setup? I would love to hear your opinions and experience.


 
  
 It depends.
 Many modern motherboards these days has its USB ports feed directly from the 5v rail of the PSU. Considering everything else is in order (the PSU being clean), you shouldn't get any distortion, pops, clicks, or cuts into an external source via USB.
  
 However on the other hand, up until 2011, motherboards before that has poor implementation of USB ports. Some aren't even grounded properly (looking at you, Asrock of old) which could potentially lead to damage on the external source.
  
 What motherboard are you using?


----------



## Orihalcon

benbenkr said:


> It depends.
> Many modern motherboards these days has its USB ports feed directly from the 5v rail of the PSU. Considering everything else is in order (the PSU being clean), you shouldn't get any distortion, pops, clicks, or cuts into an external source via USB.
> 
> However on the other hand, up until 2011, motherboards before that has poor implementation of USB ports. Some aren't even grounded properly (looking at you, Asrock of old) which could potentially lead to damage on the external source.
> ...


 
 Thank you. Form what I've read that does seem to be the case.
  
 I'm using an Asus Gene Vii. Which from all counts SHOULD have a properly isolated and fed USB layer.
  
 Will wait for feedback from the poster above on the quality of the Omni. If it's good...that will be my choice.


----------



## Silverwind

I picked up a soundblaster OMNI about two weeks ago. My headphones are Phillips fidelio X1's. Bass is tighter and has more impact. There seems to be enough power coming out of the OMNI where the onboard lacked impact. How does this compare to a dedicated amp? I don't know haven't had the opportunity to try. The SBX processing for games makes a noticeable difference. For sure worth the money. If I get the upgrade fever I can always add a Schiit magni.


----------



## Orihalcon

silverwind said:


> I picked up a soundblaster OMNI about two weeks ago. My headphones are Phillips fidelio X1's. Bass is tighter and has more impact. There seems to be enough power coming out of the OMNI where the onboard lacked impact. How does this compare to a dedicated amp? I don't know haven't had the opportunity to try. The SBX processing for games makes a noticeable difference. For sure worth the money. If I get the upgrade fever I can always add a Schiit magni.




Exactly what I wanted to hear! Thank you. 

Now to find a place that will ship to South Africa


----------



## benbenkr

orihalcon said:


> Thank you. Form what I've read that does seem to be the case.
> 
> I'm using an Asus Gene Vii. Which from all counts SHOULD have a properly isolated and fed USB layer.
> 
> Will wait for feedback from the poster above on the quality of the Omni. If it's good...that will be my choice.


 
  
 The Gene VII is a good board, you have nothing to worry about.
  
 Used to have an Omni, it's certainly good and due to the recent drop in prices, it's a very good deal too. Comparing to other external devices in the similar price range (Asus U7), the Omni is definitely better. The amp on the headphone out is essential enough, an optical out port means you can use SBX with another higher end DAC with optical in should you go that route in the future.
  
 So yeah, you really lose nothing by getting an Omni. Go for it.


----------



## AvroArrow

All this talk about the Omni has got me curious enough to want to try SBX now.  Before I go buy one I've got a question for current owners.  Does the Omni work with WASAPI and/or ASIO drivers over it's SPDIF Optical output?  I know most people use it as is, or maybe hook up an amp to the RCA output, but I'd like to use it just as a SBX encoder and pipe the output to an external optical DAC & amp.  My current X-Fi Titanium (SB0880) does NOT work with WASAPI or ASIO over optical out, it actually completely freezes my Win7 box when I try it with foobar2000.


----------



## Orihalcon

avroarrow said:


> All this talk about the Omni has got me curious enough to want to try SBX now.  Before I go buy one I've got a question for current owners.  Does the Omni work with WASAPI and/or ASIO drivers over it's SPDIF Optical output?  I know most people use it as is, or maybe hook up an amp to the RCA output, but I'd like to use it just as a SBX encoder and pipe the output to an external optical DAC & amp.  My current X-Fi Titanium (SB0880) does NOT work with WASAPI or ASIO over optical out, it actually completely freezes my Win7 box when I try it with foobar2000.


 
  
 This is one thing I made sure of that it could do, and it can. Using the optical out from the pod it can send 5.1 surround sound output to whatever you'll be using.


----------



## Silverwind

avroarrow said:


> All this talk about the Omni has got me curious enough to want to try SBX now.  Before I go buy one I've got a question for current owners.  Does the Omni work with WASAPI and/or ASIO drivers over it's SPDIF Optical output?  I know most people use it as is, or maybe hook up an amp to the RCA output, but I'd like to use it just as a SBX encoder and pipe the output to an external optical DAC & amp.  My current X-Fi Titanium (SB0880) does NOT work with WASAPI or ASIO over optical out, it actually completely freezes my Win7 box when I try it with foobar2000.




Check a few of the posts here:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/623079/creative-sound-blaster-new-series-z-zx-zxr/2145


----------



## AvroArrow

orihalcon said:


> This is one thing I made sure of that it could do, and it can. Using the optical out from the pod it can send 5.1 surround sound output to whatever you'll be using.


 
 Passing through the CMSS-3D through SPDIF works fine on my X-Fi Ti since it's using the default Windows DirectSound driver.  That's not the problem I have, it's the 2nd part where I'm trying to use foobar2000's WASAPI drivers (for regular FLAC stereo music playback) AND doing the pass through over SPDIF that crashes my PC.
  


silverwind said:


> Check a few of the posts here:
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/623079/creative-sound-blaster-new-series-z-zx-zxr/2145


 
 Thanks for the link.  I was setup exactly like what TwoEars listed with my X-Fi Ti and when foobar2000 is set to use WASAPI (event): SB SPDIF it will crash my PC as soon as I click Play on any song.  That's why I'm asking if this setup actually works on the Omni, unlike my X-Fi Ti.


----------



## Orihalcon

avroarrow said:


> Passing through the CMSS-3D through SPDIF works fine on my X-Fi Ti since it's using the default Windows DirectSound driver.  That's not the problem I have, it's the 2nd part where I'm trying to use foobar2000's WASAPI drivers (for regular FLAC stereo music playback) AND doing the pass through over SPDIF that crashes my PC.




Ah. My apologies. I misunderstood.


----------



## PurpleAngel

avroarrow said:


> All this talk about the Omni has got me curious enough to want to try SBX now.  Before I go buy one I've got a question for current owners.  Does the Omni work with WASAPI and/or ASIO drivers over it's SPDIF Optical output?  I know most people use it as is, or maybe hook up an amp to the RCA output, but I'd like to use it just as a SBX encoder and pipe the output to an external optical DAC & amp.  My current X-Fi Titanium (SB0880) does NOT work with WASAPI or ASIO over optical out, it actually completely freezes my Win7 box when I try it with Foobar2000.


 
  
 In Windows, under Control Panel>Sound>Playback tab, it should give you the option that allows digital audio to pass thru the Titanium's optical port, while bypassing the Titanium's audio processor/features, I would assume it would fix the freezing issue.
 Then when you want to use the Titanium features you just go back to the Playback tab and enable (Titanium Speaker) sound card output.


----------



## Viceroy

On the X-Fi Titanium HD, does CMSS-3D Headphone work fine if you use the RCA out?


----------



## Fegefeuer

Yes


----------



## Viceroy

Thanks. I thought it might have distorted the sound or something. Glad to have this cleared up.


----------



## PurpleAngel

viceroy said:


> On the X-Fi Titanium HD, does CMSS-3D Headphone work fine if you use the RCA out?


 
  
 Yes, the Titanium-HD can send processed CMSS-3D headphone surround sound thru it's RCA outputs.


----------



## AvroArrow

purpleangel said:


> In Windows, under Control Panel>Sound>Playback tab, it should give you the option that allows digital audio to pass thru the Titanium's optical port, while bypassing the Titanium's audio processor/features, I would assume it would fix the freezing issue.
> Then when you want to use the Titanium features you just go back to the Playback tab and enable (Titanium Speaker) sound card output.


 
  
 That option does not exist under the regular Windows Sound Control Panel.  The closest thing I can find is within the Creative Audio Control Panel:
 Creative Audio Control Panel>SPDIF I/O>Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output
 I tried ticking that option,
  
 then in foobar2000:
 ASIO: Creative ASIO
 WASAPI (event): SPDIF Out (Creative SB X-Fi)
 WASAPI (push): SPDIF Out (Creative SB X-Fi)
 All 3 of those output options will hard lock Windows. 
  
 DS: SPDIF Out (Creative SB X-Fi) is the only output that doesn't lock up Windows, but that's the Direct Sound driver that does not bypass all windows and SB mixers.  
 WASAPI (event): Speakers (Creative SB X-Fi) also works, but that doesn't bypass the X-Fi's DAC.
  
 I think the X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) is not capable of working with ASIO or WASAPI drivers through its SPDIF Output port.  Odd thing is, I had a USB X-Fi Surround 5.1 (non-Pro) for a short while and the WASAPI driver did work over its SPDIF Output. 
  
 At this point I've kind of given up on a minimal device setup which I wanted when I got the X-Fi Ti.  I originally wanted it to be X-Fi Ti> SPDIF out> Audioengine D1> Asgard 2> Headphones.  But since the WASAPI/ASIO SPDIF output is broken on the X-Fi Ti I have it setup like this now:
 For gaming, it's X-Fi Ti 3.5mm output> splitter> Fiio E09k> headphones. 
 For music, it's onboard Realtek SPDIF output> Audioengine D1> Asgard 2> headphones. 
  
 Maybe I should post my WASAPI/SPDIF question in that other SB Z/ZX/ZXR thread instead of this thread.


----------



## RXShadow

I managed to get the Omni and give it a try.
  
 First impressions: Quite good actually, seems like a much better overall purchase than U3 (Even though I still think U3 + E17 was not a bad idea either). The DAC/Amp included is quite impressive for the package, but not amazing. It feels like the amp is good enough for entry cases unless you wanna go further and add an extra amp. For my case, I think it's more than enough, considering I just have a 558 at this point, which really, doesn't do justice to what I will say about the amp.
  
 As for the surround, it does seem to have a bit more clarity than DH. From what I found people describing DH compared to SBX, SBX seems to have a better preference for me. Having said that, I'm not sure if I'm even getting the settings correctly. I've been changing around on the settings and the surround still doesn't feel natural as I hoped it would be. I'll still play around though. If I'm not satisfied, VSS might not be a thing for me after all.


----------



## genclaymore

rxshadow said:


> I managed to get the Omni and give it a try.
> 
> First impressions: Quite good actually, seems like a much better overall purchase than U3 (Even though I still think U3 + E17 was not a bad idea either). The DAC/Amp included is quite impressive for the package, but not amazing. It feels like the amp is good enough for entry cases unless you wanna go further and add an extra amp. For my case, I think it's more than enough, considering I just have a 558 at this point, which really, doesn't do justice to what I will say about the amp.
> 
> As for the surround, it does seem to have a bit more clarity than DH. From what I found people describing DH compared to SBX, SBX seems to have a better preference for me. Having said that, I'm not sure if I'm even getting the settings correctly. I've been changing around on the settings and the surround still doesn't feel natural as I hoped it would be. I'll still play around though. If I'm not satisfied, VSS might not be a thing for me after all.


 

 If your setting windows speaker settings to 5.1 as well as game's then your setting it correctly. If not then that's how you config it. Also SBX surround headphone options can be used thru the RCA output too which comes in handy for the reason you mentioned external amp's.


----------



## RXShadow

genclaymore said:


> If your setting windows speaker settings to 5.1 as well as game's then your setting it correctly. If not then that's how you config it. Also SBX surround headphone options can be used thru the RCA output too which comes in handy for the reason you mentioned external amp's.


 
  
 Yep, that's pretty much how I configured it. Only thing is that on the Omni control panel, I've set it up as headphones instead of 5.1 surround, since I seem to find it better.


----------



## Silverwind

rxshadow said:


> Yep, that's pretty much how I configured it. Only thing is that on the Omni control panel, I've set it up as headphones instead of 5.1 surround, since I seem to find it better.


That is how I have it. Windows set to 5.1 and OMNI control panel set to headphones. I have SBX set to around 35%. Scout mode, crystal voice, all that stuff I have off. Inside the game make sure to set it to 5.1 also. When I not playing a 5.1 source I turn off SBX, such as for music.


----------



## LB Felipe

Many recommend to stick Sound Blaster Z with external optical DAC to bypass the sound card's DAC without losing the SBX effects.
  
 My question is simple: Using a G1 Gaming motherboard (or another) that has SoundCore 3d, do I need a Sound Blaster Z to have the result that I'd with the above set (SBX)? Or can I just stick the onboard audio with a external optical DAC and thus keeping SBX like whether I had a sound card?


----------



## Silverwind

lb felipe said:


> Many recommend to stick Sound Blaster Z with external optical DAC to bypass the sound card's DAC without losing the SBX effects.
> 
> My question is simple: Using a G1 Gaming motherboard (or another) that has SoundCore 3d, do I need a Sound Blaster Z to have the result that I'd with the above set (SBX)? Or can I just stick the onboard audio with a external optical DAC and thus keeping SBX like whether I had a sound card?




The motherboard looks like it has full SBX processing. You should be able to output from to your external equipment without too much trouble and keep the processing.


----------



## RXShadow

silverwind said:


> That is how I have it. Windows set to 5.1 and OMNI control panel set to headphones. I have SBX set to around 35%. Scout mode, crystal voice, all that stuff I have off. Inside the game make sure to set it to 5.1 also. When I not playing a 5.1 source I turn off SBX, such as for music.


 
  
 Yeah, that's how I set it up as well. I will probably assume my headphones doesn't do justice to SBX. I'll know for sure once I upgrade though.


lb felipe said:


> Many recommend to stick Sound Blaster Z with external optical DAC to bypass the sound card's DAC without losing the SBX effects.
> 
> My question is simple: Using a G1 Gaming motherboard (or another) that has SoundCore 3d, do I need a Sound Blaster Z to have the result that I'd with the above set (SBX)? Or can I just stick the onboard audio with a external optical DAC and thus keeping SBX like whether I had a sound card?


 
  
 If your motherboard does it and has the option to output through Optical, there is no need at all to buy another soundcard just to get the processing. If you're planning on just taking the processing part, any solution (even if it is dirt cheap) is going to be fine.


----------



## LB Felipe

Thanks guys.
  
 Now only question is whether the onboard audio controller of the GA-Z97X-Gaming G1 sends SBX by its TOSLink output. What do you say?


----------



## Arkanius

Small question:
  
 I have a X-Fi Titanium, and as such, I use the Creatives OpenAL driver.
 Should I use the Rapture3D or OpenAL Soft implementation? Even if I lose hardware acceleration? It seems everyone says the HTRF is better in those implementations than Creative's


----------



## genclaymore

lb felipe said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Now only question is whether the onboard audio controller of the GA-Z97X-Gaming G1 sends SBX by its TOSLink output. What do you say?


 

 If your use what you hear or if it has the option in the advance option to send stereo mix to spdif then it should.


----------



## AdrianR

I've been researching the past couple of days to try and figure out what the best option for me would be. 

 I have AKG K712 Pro headphones, and will be getting a Schiit Modi/Magni stack to use with them.
 My PC has an Asus P8Z77V-Pro motherboard, and I don't have a soundcard.
  
 So I was looking at what soundcard would be best for me to use, when only getting it for the surround sound for gaming, as I will be using the optical out to the Schiit stack. However, I found that Creative are selling the SBX software for $30: Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 Software Suite. It seems like this is the same as what the sound cards use, so that might be all I need.

 Considering that I only need the surround software, would this be a better option, or would a sound card having the soundcore 3D chip be better?
  
 Thanks for you help.


----------



## genclaymore

You have to hope that the software works with your motherboard, because if it doesn' then it become useless. As certain realtek codecs work with the software. If you look on ebay you should be able to find a cheap sound blaster z or even amazon.


----------



## Murder Mike

adrianr said:


> I've been researching the past couple of days to try and figure out what the best option for me would be.
> 
> I have AKG K712 Pro headphones, and will be getting a Schiit Modi/Magni stack to use with them.
> My PC has an Asus P8Z77V-Pro motherboard, and I don't have a soundcard.
> ...


 
  
 Are you getting the optical Modi? Stillhart said that he couldn't tell the difference between that and the Sound Blaster Omni's DAC (obviously YMMV). If you were to grab an Omni and use the headphone out to a Magni or better, you could save some cash and have a guaranteed surround sound solution that wouldn't be messing with some software package that may or may not work well.


----------



## NinjaMilez

Can someone tell me exactly what the benefit of using a sound-card that supports CMSS-3D is when playing a game that is not using an API that gives the sound card driver 3D co-ordinates of in-game sounds?
  
 If a game uses XAudio2, X3DAudio or FMOD/FMOD Ex as its API is positional/directional/3D audio better when using a CMSS-3D enabled card as opposed to something that uses Dolby Headphone or SBX ProStudio/THX  TruStudio Pro? Or is a card that uses the latter three technologies better used with XAudio2, X3DAudio and FMOD/FMOD Ex?
  
 P.S. To NamelessPFG, I think it would be a good idea if you updated the original post to include SBX ProStudio/THX  TruStudio Pro, if you've used them of course.


----------



## PurpleAngel

arkanius said:


> Small question:
> 
> I have a X-Fi Titanium, and as such, I use the Creatives OpenAL driver.
> Should I use the Rapture3D or OpenAL Soft implementation? Even if I lose hardware acceleration? It seems everyone says the HTRF is better in those implementations than Creative's


 
  
 You might also consider posting questions about X-Fi cards on this forum/thread.
 http://forums.creative.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6


----------



## PurpleAngel

lb felipe said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Now only question is whether the on-board audio controller of the GA-Z97X-Gaming G1 sends SBX by its TOSLink output. What do you say?


 
  
 To me it would be really really surprised if the Z97X's on-board SoundCore3D audio could not output SBX Headphone surround sound thru the optical (Toslink) output.
 Creative sound card can send SBX headphone thru optical and the Z97X uses both a Creative hardware audio processor and Creative audio software.


----------



## LB Felipe

Thanks, Purple.
  
 I asked for that because you had said that Sound Blaster Z/Zx/ZxR doesn't send SBX thru analog line output (or front speakers, RCA in case of the last). I know, thru optical, it does, by who knows.
  
 I'd like anyone has tested that. If you find any link to it, please, let me know.


----------



## PurpleAngel

lb felipe said:


> Thanks, Purple.
> 
> I asked for that because you had said that Sound Blaster Z/Zx/ZxR doesn't send SBX thru analog line output (or front speakers, RCA in case of the last). I know, thru optical, it does, by who knows.
> 
> I'd like anyone has tested that. If you find any link to it, please, let me know.


 
  
 To me the SB-Z, Zx, ZxR would really almost never have a reason for sending SBX headphone thru the line-outs (speaker outputs).
 So i can not see Creative spend cash to include a that kind of feature in the Z series.
 So i was just making my best guess.


----------



## AdrianR

murder mike said:


> Are you getting the optical Modi? Stillhart said that he couldn't tell the difference between that and the Sound Blaster Omni's DAC (obviously YMMV). If you were to grab an Omni and use the headphone out to a Magni or better, you could save some cash and have a guaranteed surround sound solution that wouldn't be messing with some software package that may or may not work well.


 
 I am getting the optical modi and so unfortunately the Omni won't be suitable for me as I need the input to be optical rather than USB.

 I might look further into getting the sound blaster z, it seems like it shouldn't be too expensive.


----------



## pastuch

Couple things I couldn't find answers to in this thread.

I output audio from my PC to a Pioneer 1019 Reciever over HDMI. Right now I play BF4 with surround audio through speakers (Energy RC70s (R/L), RC-LCR center and Energy RC-R rears). 

My questions are: 

Am I better off buying a pair of Audio technica AD700x and plugging them into the Pioneer 1019 reciever head phone output or should I use my old Sound Blaster Live 5.1?

For BF4, what is the best solution for positional competitive gaming? (price isn't much of a factor)

My clan all swears by their Astro 40s but I've read so many good things about the AD700.


----------



## Murder Mike

adrianr said:


> I am getting the optical modi and so unfortunately the Omni won't be suitable for me as I need the input to be optical rather than USB.
> 
> I might look further into getting the sound blaster z, it seems like it shouldn't be too expensive.


 
  
 The Omni will output surround through the optical out to your Modi. The connection to the PC is the only thing that is USB on the Omni.


----------



## Silverwind

murder mike said:


> The Omni will output surround through the optical out to your Modi. The connection to the PC is the only thing that is USB on the Omni.



+1 you should be good with optical out from OMNI.


----------



## AdrianR

murder mike said:


> The Omni will output surround through the optical out to your Modi. The connection to the PC is the only thing that is USB on the Omni.


 

 Ah sorry, I got a bit confused with regards to my setup.

 I would still need the Schiit stack, since I'm using an optical toslink matrix (4x2) so I can switch to speakers as well. So I had been thinking I would need optical input on the Omni, but I can put it before the matrix instead just like the computer's optical output. So the amp/dac part of the Omni won't be used.
  
 So I would have Omni -> optical matrix -> Schiit stack.
  
 Thanks for your help guys, it has been very useful.
  
 EDIT: I still need to get an optical DAC for my Swan M10 speakers actually, just a cheap ~$50 AUD one. Would the Fiio D07 be fine for that or is there something else I should look at? Not looking for an upgrade from onboard for the speakers really, just need to use the optical matrix.


----------



## Murder Mike

adrianr said:


> EDIT: I still need to get an optical DAC for my Swan M10 speakers actually, just a cheap ~$50 AUD one. Would the Fiio D07 be fine for that or is there something else I should look at? Not looking for an upgrade from onboard for the speakers really, just need to use the optical matrix.


 
  
 The D03K should also work if you can find it.


----------



## NamelessPFG

ninjamilez said:


> Can someone tell me exactly what the benefit of using a sound-card that supports CMSS-3D is when playing a game that is not using an API that gives the sound card driver 3D co-ordinates of in-game sounds?
> 
> If a game uses XAudio2, X3DAudio or FMOD/FMOD Ex as its API is positional/directional/3D audio better when using a CMSS-3D enabled card as opposed to something that uses Dolby Headphone or SBX ProStudio/THX  TruStudio Pro? Or is a card that uses the latter three technologies better used with XAudio2, X3DAudio and FMOD/FMOD Ex?
> 
> P.S. To NamelessPFG, I think it would be a good idea if you updated the original post to include SBX ProStudio/THX  TruStudio Pro, if you've used them of course.



It works just like Dolby Headphone and THX/SBX do in software-mixed games, just with its own sound colorations.

I'll probably throw it in whenever I decide how to rearchitect and rewrite the guide to minimize repeat questions like that. It was initially written as more of an information and misconception list than a how-to guide.

That said, I've tried THX TSP Surround on my X-Fi Titanium HD (Entertainment Mode) and the Recon3D USB. I was not impressed. SBX doesn't sound any different in YouTube videos to me, either.

My preference for CMSS-3D Headphone is pretty well-known around here. Still, that's my preference. You'll have to decide what's best for you with your own two ears.


----------



## DesmondKSA

Some questions before I buy - Fildelio X1 - TubeMagic D1 Plus - V-moda BoomPro

 My Goal:
  - Play games on ( PC - PS3 - Laptop - PS Vita )
  - Be able to chat ( Skype - Online Games )
  - Use the same combination to watch movies and Anime and play games
  - Use the same headphone for my phone, and iPod and PS Vita

 I am dominantly a PC gamer but I do play on my PS3 sometimes. I also love to watch high quality movies and anime.

 My questions:
  - Does an amp make a big difference with the X1s?
  - Since these are open cans, how much noise is radiated into my surrounding area? If I was on a plane would I annoy people around me?
  - Is the V-moda cable a good quality cable? I've always been a nut about high quality cables and power filtering.
  - Which is best TubeMagic D1 Plus or Schiit Modi + Mangi ?


----------



## RXShadow

desmondksa said:


> Some questions before I buy - Fildelio X1 - TubeMagic D1 Plus - V-moda BoomPro
> 
> My Goal:
> - Play games on ( PC - PS3 - Laptop - PS Vita )
> ...


 
  
 Do let us know what you think once you get them!


----------



## Markdude

EDIT: Decided to post a new thread asking for more general advice instead, please delete.


----------



## jdubsss

Just picked up an Asus U3 and have it going into my bifrost via toslink.  I'm trying to play CS:GO with dolby headphone and it sounds HORRIBLE.  It's like I'm running around in a vacuum.  Windows and the game are set to 5.1 and asus software is set to dolby headphone.  Anything I can do to fix it?  Otherwise I'm just going to return this thing because it doesn't work for the game whatsoever.


----------



## PurpleAngel

jdubsss said:


> Just picked up an Asus U3 and have it going into my Bifrost via toslink.  I'm trying to play CS:GO with Dolby headphone and it sounds HORRIBLE.  It's like I'm running around in a vacuum.  Windows and the game are set to 5.1 and Asus software is set to Dolby headphone.  Anything I can do to fix it?  Otherwise I'm just going to return this thing because it doesn't work for the game whatsoever.


 
  
 Is the U3's Audio Channel set to 6-Channel
 Sample rate set to 44.1K or 48K?
 S/PDIF Output set to PCM?
  
 Have you tried doing a fresh install of the U3 drivers?
  
 It should not really make a difference, but have you disable the motherboard's on-board audio? in the BIOS.


----------



## jdubsss

purpleangel said:


> Is the U3's Audio Channel set to 6-Channel
> Sample rate set to 44.1K or 48K?
> S/PDIF Output set to PCM?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes
 48k - It's the only option
 Yes
 Yes.  Just installed it today direct from ASUS website
  
 No, but they're disabled in windows.


----------



## FangJoker

Are the soundblaster cards better than the asus stx card for gaming?  I started reading the thread from the back as I am looking for the most up to date information and it seems like people are only talking about soundblaster cards.  Even if it is better, I probably won't change as I would lose too much money selling a used card here or on ebay.  I'm just curious to know what is currently the best.


----------



## RXShadow

vegasf1 said:


> Are the soundblaster cards better than the asus stx card for gaming?  I started reading the thread from the back as I am looking for the most up to date information and it seems like people are only talking about soundblaster cards.  Even if it is better, I probably won't change as I would lose too much money selling a used card here or on ebay.  I'm just curious to know what is currently the best.




No, it is mostly due to your preference only. Some people prefer SBX, while others prefer Dolby Headphone.


----------



## PurpleAngel

vegasf1 said:


> Are the Sound Blaster cards better than the Asus STX card for gaming?  I started reading the thread from the back as I am looking for the most up to date information and it seems like people are only talking about Sound Blaster cards.  Even if it is better, I probably won't change as I would lose too much money selling a used card here or on eBay.  I'm just curious to know what is currently the best.


 
  
 I'm assuming you already have the Asus Xonar Essence STX sound card?
 Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio? in the BIOS, when you installed the STX.
  
 Most people who own the STX seem to find it decent enough for gaming.


----------



## rudyae86

Hey there everyone,
  
 This is my first time posting in this thread. I still have alot to learn about audio but Im trying my best to understand it.
  
 My question for now is....best settings to be used in BF4? 
  
 Im currently using a Recon3D USB since I also use it for my PS3 and later with the PS4, so it made sense that i purchased the Recon for multipurpose reasons.
 I am also using Phillips Fidelios X1 headphones for gaming along with a v moda mic.
  
 Now I have installed everything and have been running it for the past 6 or 7 months and it sounds good, but I feel or hear like I am missing something....?
  
 Ive read that some use Hi Fi with surround, some with Hi FI and stereo, Headphone with surround (which i use and sounds good to me) but Im hoping someone else that knows about Creative Labs Recon3D, can tell me whats beneficial in its control panel and whats not? Im also confused with the dolby digital dynamic something lol I forgot what its really called, which is set to normal for now.
  
 So many questions that I need answered.
 Id very much appreciate your help guys, Thanks
  
 ohh and also, ive read  that you can go into one of the games folders and set it up properly for surround sound?
  
  
  
  
 edit: Any help please?


----------



## halferuga

I've stumbled upon this while googling:


> ...but since Realtek cards can't convert OpenAL calls into a Dolby Digital Live bitstream, you just get un-compressed stereo instead.


 
 is it true?


----------



## Fegefeuer

Lichdom Audio Demo. Nothing directional, more about reverb and filters. It certainly got a EAX vibe where locational sounds do not sound flat BF:BC2 style. 
  
 http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Lichdom-Battlemage-PC-257919/Videos/Lichdom-Battlemage-Vergleich-zwischen-True-Audio-und-normalem-Sound-1134587/


----------



## Evshrug

fegefeuer said:


> Lichdom Audio Demo. Nothing directional, more about reverb and filters. It certainly got a EAX vibe where locational sounds do not sound flat BF:BC2 style.
> 
> http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Lichdom-Battlemage-PC-257919/Videos/Lichdom-Battlemage-Vergleich-zwischen-True-Audio-und-normalem-Sound-1134587/



Did they drop AMD TrueAudio support?


----------



## Fegefeuer

No.


----------



## pauldgroot

Hello, I just got my Titanium HD a couple of weeks ago and something keeps bugging me. I'm hoping some guru can help me. I use my Titanium HD's RCA output connected to a O2 amplifier and then my HD600's. Windows 8.1 64bit is set to 5.1 sound.

When I use game mode and enable CMSS-3D I get the virtual surround sound through my headphones. When I switch to entertainment mode none of the THX options have any effect on the sound. (surround, crystalizer, speaker etc) I have no idea what to do. 

I've reinstalled the official Creative drivers from the website and now I'm using Daniel_K's 3.0a driver. With every reinstall I unistalled the previous driver, booted into safe mode and ran driver sweeper to clean leftovers.

I really would like THX Trustudio surround to work to be able to compare and I hope somebody knows what to do. I also posted this in the Creative forums but I didn't get and answer yet.


----------



## bryanvlo

Didn't realise I double posted.


----------



## bryanvlo

What's the best sound card out there for the purposes of gaming? Seems like the SB Xi-Fi is a popular choice.


----------



## Dark_wizzie

I still have yet to test Razer Surround. I need to get my friend to help me test it vs stereo in Battlefield 3. The difference isn't really that large.


----------



## wilflare

I've posted in MLE's thread but was referred here to get more info on PC surround gaming.
  
 CONTEXT:
 okay. I finally have funds to buy a new headphone to replace the Sony PULSE Elite Wireless
 so I basically have 5 platforms I would use my headphones on.
 (1) Vita/3DS
 (2) PS4 (and PS3)
*(3) PC -currently using Audinst HUD-MX1- (which I'll also use for Music and Movies -no specific genres!-)*
  
 I am thinking of getting one of the following 4 headphones
 Senn HD598
 Philips Fidelio X1
 Audio Technica AD700X
 Kingston HyperX Cloud Headset
  
 I was also thinking of getting
 - ASTRO Mixamp for PS4 Surround (recommended?)
 - V-MODA BoomPro mic for chat
  
 Concerns
 - Comfort: I have a large head (Hat size would be like *73/4*
 - Mods: Can I easily change the cups, cables, etc... so as to ensure I use this setup for as long as possible
*- I remember asking how I can do surround on PC in this thread before... but I don't have much choices right? and using the Mixamp on PC isn't recommended?*
  
*tl;dr - what should I get to get surround sound for gaming and movies on PC (and perhaps increase my music enjoyment or is my Audinst HUD-MX1 good enough?)*


----------



## MrEleventy

wilflare said:


> I've posted in MLE's thread but was referred here to get more info on PC surround gaming.
> 
> CONTEXT:
> okay. I finally have funds to buy a new headphone to replace the Sony PULSE Elite Wireless
> ...


First off, If you have a big head, skip the Kingston HyperX; It's a rebrand of QPad which is a rebrand of Takstar. They run small. I wear a 7.5 fitted cap and I'm nearly maxed out on my pair of HI2050s. I can max them out and still wear them comfortably. Addressing just the PC front, no experience with console setups, with any of those headphones, all you'll need is a sound card that can do positional and they should run just fine. They're all low ohm, high efficiency cans so no need to get an amp. Boompro mic will not work with the AD700x (Non replaceable cable). Should work fine with the X1 and the HD598.


----------



## wilflare

thanks! guess I'll just go with X1 + Boompro.
  
 any idea which sound card I should go for though?
 Sound Blaster Z?
 Creative Omni
 or an Asus solution?


----------



## genclaymore

You can usually find a Z and a omni cheap if your lucky, The only reason to get the omni is if you don't have any free PCi-E slots, or get bus noises in your sound like I do. Other wise get a Z.  I dont know if you are in the usa or not but amazon and ebay usually have both cheap used.


----------



## MrEleventy

Check out this video and see which one you prefer then buy accordingly.


----------



## wilflare

thanks guys! appreciate the help!
  
 guess I'm at the final stage now
 -ordered the Philips Fidelio X1 + BoomPro
  
 now I just can't decide between these
 ASTRO Mixamp
 Sound Blaster Z
 Sound Blaster Zx
 Omni
 Recon3D
  
 I'm reading that with the last four options, I can skip the ASTRO Mixamp altogether and use the PS4 optical out? and output to my headphones?


----------



## genclaymore

wilflare said:


> thanks guys! appreciate the help!
> 
> guess I'm at the final stage now
> -ordered the Philips Fidelio X1 + BoomPro
> ...


 

 I mentioned in the other thread that you posted in that if you want to send your PS4 audio into the sound cards and the omni you would have to use the line in to do it.  The sound blaster Z is the successor to the recon3D series so there no need to even get the recon3d let alone think about it.  The Omni and the sound blaster Z is very similar to each other.  The optical connection that is on the Z and the omni is for output not input. Also the ZX is the same card as the Z just with a mic which you don't need. You may have to get the Astro mixamp to use with your PS4 unless you use the line in like I mentioned if you want to route it thru the omni or the Z.


----------



## mindbomb

jdubsss said:


> Just picked up an Asus U3 and have it going into my bifrost via toslink.  I'm trying to play CS:GO with dolby headphone and it sounds HORRIBLE.  It's like I'm running around in a vacuum.  Windows and the game are set to 5.1 and asus software is set to dolby headphone.  Anything I can do to fix it?  Otherwise I'm just going to return this thing because it doesn't work for the game whatsoever.


 
 This post is really old, but I think the issue is that you have the wrong default device selected. You are supposed to select speakers (asus xonar), not spdif digital device (asus xonar). Another thing you can do to slightly improve quality is use the snd_legacy_surround 1 command with GX mode enabled. GX mode is analogous to Alchemy for creative sound card users.


----------



## DreamKing

genclaymore said:


> I mentioned in the other thread that you posted in that if you want to send your PS4 audio into the sound cards and the omni you would have to use the line in to do it.  The sound blaster Z is the successor to the recon3D series so there no need to even get the recon3d let alone think about it.  The Omni and the sound blaster Z is very similar to each other.  The optical connection that is on the Z and the omni is for output not input. Also the ZX is the same card as the Z just with a mic which you don't need. You may have to get the Astro mixamp to use with your PS4 unless you use the line in like I mentioned if you want to route it thru the omni or the Z.


 
 Can you do the same thing with an asus soundcard? I don't know the thread you're mentioning (since I'm obviously not who you are speaking to) but I'm assuming using the line in is just using a line cable from ps4 to soundcard?


----------



## genclaymore

dreamking said:


> Can you do the same thing with an asus soundcard? I don't know the thread you're mentioning (since I'm obviously not who you are speaking to) but I'm assuming using the line in is just using a line cable from ps4 to soundcard?


 

 Yes you can, You merely use a female RCA to 3.5 male cable or adapter to do it to do it.


----------



## ikjadoon

Check this out:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/732171/creative-sound-blaster-e5-headphone-amp-usb-dac-with-otg-toslink-aptx-recording-more
  
 Finally we can use USB and still get binaural surround (via SBX Pro Studio)? Built-in microphone, too!


----------



## Evshrug

genclaymore said:


> I mentioned in the other thread that you posted in that if you want to send your PS4 audio into the sound cards and the omni you would have to use the line in to do it.  The sound blaster Z is the successor to the recon3D series so there no need to even get the recon3d let alone think about it.  The Omni and the sound blaster Z is very similar to each other.  The optical connection that is on the Z and the omni is for output not input. Also the ZX is the same card as the Z just with a mic which you don't need. You may have to get the Astro mixamp to use with your PS4 unless you use the line in like I mentioned if you want to route it thru the omni or the Z.



Not entirely correct, but mostly right end results. Totally agree that the ACM module accessory doesn't merit the price difference, the Omni allows the same convenient port access and volume control but doesn't have a sound quality penalty and costs less. The Z does have a wired mic and an optical input, but it only accepts stereo PCM input because of licensing issues (so no surround, and both PC & PS4 would need to be on). The Omni only has an optical output.

With the Z series cards mostly replacing the Recon3D products with upgraded quality, the only Recon3D product worth keeping in mind (and still in production) is the USB model. Yeah, the Omni is a SQ upgrade, but the Recon3D USB can decode DDL surround output from consoles to it's optical input, and doesn't require a PC to run it; a PS4's USB port will power the unit and input mic audio through USB. It's cleaner and clearer than an Astro Mixamp.




ikjadoon said:


> Check this out:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/732171/creative-sound-blaster-e5-headphone-amp-usb-dac-with-otg-toslink-aptx-recording-more
> 
> Finally we can use USB and still get binaural surround (via SBX Pro Studio)? Built-in microphone, too!




Yeah, and check out what else is coming down the pipes... Expensive, but it does everything and then some more:
http://www.soundblaster.com/x7/


----------



## DreamKing

I knew the Recon3D is a great product for the price but didn't know it was cleaner and clearer than mixamp. I only got it over the mixamp cause I live in Canada and don't like to pay for possible import charges and pricier shipping tagged with international buys when there are alternatives. It's funny how these companies that used to be hated by audiophiles are stepping up their game a bit now that they filled up their bank accounts lol. Beats by Dre released decent cans, Creative got gradually better ever since they got competition from Asus and they still have a good hold on external gaming amps compared to Asus.  I'd like to find the difference in wealth of the market of external gaming amps for consoles vs PC soundcards  nowadays.


----------



## rudyae86

evshrug said:


> Not entirely correct, but mostly right end results. Totally agree that the ACM module accessory doesn't merit the price difference, the Omni allows the same convenient port access and volume control but doesn't have a sound quality penalty and costs less. The Z does have a wired mic and an optical input, but it only accepts stereo PCM input because of licensing issues (so no surround, and both PC & PS4 would need to be on). The Omni only has an optical output.
> 
> With the Z series cards mostly replacing the Recon3D products with upgraded quality, the only Recon3D product worth keeping in mind (and still in production) is the USB model. Yeah, the Omni is a SQ upgrade, but the Recon3D USB can decode DDL surround output from consoles to it's optical input, and doesn't require a PC to run it; a PS4's USB port will power the unit and input mic audio through USB. It's cleaner and clearer than an Astro Mixamp.
> Yeah, and check out what else is coming down the pipes... Expensive, but it does everything and then some more:
> http://www.soundblaster.com/x7/




Thanks man, my wallet is going to be hurt even more lol. I already have the Recon3D USB and its great, the only thing that i sometimes kind of complain is that the rear "speakers" on a headphone, although noticable, lack some definition. This might be just me and BF4 and the Fidelio X1 but overall, I think its a solid gadget for multipurpose gaming. I use on PS3 and my PC. On PC you get 7.1 and with PS3 you get 5.1 DDL. I think its a great little thing for 60 to 70 bucks.....

But the x7.....now that is something I now want lol


----------



## wilflare

rudyae86 said:


> Thanks man, my wallet is going to be hurt even more lol. I already have the Recon3D USB and its great, the only thing that i sometimes kind of complain is that the rear "speakers" on a headphone, although noticable, lack some definition. This might be just me and BF4 and the Fidelio X1 but overall, I think its a solid gadget for multipurpose gaming. I use on PS3 and my PC. On PC you get 7.1 and with PS3 you get 5.1 DDL. I think its a great little thing for 60 to 70 bucks.....
> 
> But the x7.....now that is something I now want lol


 
 it's a pity Recon3D isn't available anymore at the same low good price :/


----------



## rudyae86

I got it for 70 bucks at Amazon, via Circuit City in January I think of this year.

 I might end up selling mine if the x7 lives up to its hype and its reasonably priced


----------



## genclaymore

wilflare said:


> it's a pity Recon3D isn't available anymore at the same low good price :/


 

 That tend to happens when they stop making them or the demand for them go down.


----------



## ikjadoon

evshrug said:


> Yeah, and check out what else is coming down the pipes... Expensive, but it does everything and then some more:
> http://www.soundblaster.com/x7/


 
  
 I heard about that one, too. It looks pretty sweet.
  
 But, I don't have a portable DAC/AMP for my phone/car anyways, so I thought, why not kill two birds with one stone?


----------



## rudyae86

ikjadoon said:


> I heard about that one, too. It looks pretty sweet.
> 
> But, I don't have a portable DAC/AMP for my phone/car anyways, so I thought, why not kill two birds with one stone?




Wait, so how small is this X7?


----------



## Evshrug

ikjadoon said:


> I heard about that one, too. It looks pretty sweet.
> 
> But, I don't have a portable DAC/AMP for my phone/car anyways, so I thought, why not kill two birds with one stone?



Are you thinking of the portable Creative E models, like the E5? The X7 will need an AC outlet, so doable in a car but you'll need an inverter like a house power outlet, the E models would be better suited for car/portable use.




rudyae86 said:


> Wait, so how small is this X7?



Not pocket sized... Here it is next to a MacBook Air (small laptop, not sure if 11" or 13" screen)
Argh it's not letting me post a pic, but look at the website and the photos, it's a prism shaped box a bit over half the size of a laptop though relatively small for an integrated amplifier with passive speaker taps.


----------



## wilflare

I actually owned the Asus Essence STX before I switched over to the Audinst HUD-MX1...
 so is the Sound Blaster Z actually comparable to the STX or am I kidding myself?
  
 Would I need to pair an amp with the Sound Blaster Z to get better sound quality on my Philips Fidelio X1?
  
 and more importantly, how should I go around controlling the volume on PC configurations.
 So what, what I usually do is to set the volume to max in windows/PC and use the knob on my DAC and/or speakers to control (is this the right way)?
  
 having said that, how would that apply for X1 + BoomPro Mic?
 (1) How would I control chat + mic volume on the BoomPro Mic
 (2) What should I set the inline volume control on the BoomPro Mic to be? (I was thinking of max, and let the Sound Blaster be the control)
  
 is this recommended?


----------



## RXShadow

wilflare said:


> I actually owned the Asus Essence STX before I switched over to the Audinst HUD-MX1...
> so is the Sound Blaster Z actually comparable to the STX or am I kidding myself?
> 
> Would I need to pair an amp with the Sound Blaster Z to get better sound quality on my Philips Fidelio X1?
> ...


 
  
 The STX has a better amp compared to the Z. However, the Z is more than enough to drive the Fidelio X1 as they're easy to drive. To be honest, you won't have any issues with any soundcard at all with the X1 in general. I have the Omni and found the amp to be more than capable, and I've been told it's very comprable to the amp in the Z.
  
 Volume wise for your headphones, I personally like to keep everything on the program you're gonna use maxed (games, spotify, youtube, whatever) and adjust the volume on my soundblaster (Since I use the omni, I have the volume knob right next to me)
  
 I can't speak really well for the mic, but if you're using the soundblaster, you can control line-in mic from the soundblaster settings. On the question on how to set up the volume, I have no idea what's the best course. I'm always a fan of having actual hardware control with me and use that as my adjustment, the rest usually keeps maxed, and I can safely say I'd probably apply that concept for mics if I do get one.


----------



## wilflare

ah thanks for the response. 

so in terms of DAC, Z/ZX will be a good step down the STX right? (what about the ZXR and Audinst HUD-MX1)?

hmmm what do you mean by adjust volume in soundblaster? the soundblaster control panel? sigh the ACM would be useful as an external knon

btw since I'm using the Boompro, would I need the Y-Cable to split the sound and mic cables? or can the Sound Blaster Z automatically detect? It won't be able to adjust the mix/balance of game and chat right? 

I'm entertaining the idea of using my Sound Blaster purely as a DSP. so is there any merit of getting a Schiit Stack? Or should I just get the Schiit Magni to use as Amp? how would the soundblaster connect to the Magni then? (I can't use headphone out as it would result in double-amping right?)


----------



## genclaymore

The STX has a stronger headphone amp then the Z/ZX, the Z uses the same headphone amp that is on the recon3D. The ZXR shares the same headphone amp as the STX, but if you need a headphone amp you might as well go external and use Razer surround software for Virutal headphones dsp. The ACM supposedly messes with the quality of the sound from what people been saying. You would use the line out of the sound blaster Z and not the headphone out, with a 3.5 to RCA cable. The magni is a good choice so is the vali. The Aune T1 would only benefit you if you was using the USB input, as the tube is not used when you plug into it using RCA. But some people do use What U hear in the windows control panel on the Z to route the audio directly to the external dac amp USB connection to do it using the device usb connection virtually. Which I have done which does also works.


----------



## FangJoker

wilflare said:


> ah thanks for the response.
> 
> so in terms of DAC, Z/ZX will be a good step down the STX right? (what about the ZXR and Audinst HUD-MX1)?
> 
> ...


 
  
 You would need the modi as well to use the usb input  then connect the modi to the magni.  I prefer this type of solution best over a soundcard.  I have the asus stx and audio gd nfb 11.32 and mostly use the usb input of the nfb 11.32.  But I can also use the spdif output from  the stx to connect to the nfb 11.32 if I want to use the dolby and virtual surround stuff.


----------



## Fegefeuer

The future is bright 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 http://www.oculus.com/blog/oculus-connect-2014
  


> People locate objects in the world using cues that arise from the interaction of sound with the scene, combined with the body of the listener (HRTFs) and head tracking. A great audio engine for VR has to reproduce these cues to fully convince the human perceptual system.
> 
> As part of our audio initiative, we’ve licensed RealSpace3D’s audio technology, a software stack developed over 10 years based on technology from the University of Maryland. RealSpace3D’s tech enables high-fidelity VR audio with a combination of HRTF spatialization and integrated reverberation algorithms.


 
  
  
 http://realspace3daudio.com/


----------



## Ari33

wilflare said:


> ah thanks for the response.
> 
> so in terms of DAC, Z/ZX will be a good step down the STX right?


 
  
 Yes, I briefly owned the Z which was supposed to be an upgrade to my old Audigy 2ZS  (connected to a stereo amp using phonos) I was quite shocked to find that I much prefered the smoothness of the Audigy 2ZS to the harsh, grainy and very digital sounding Z and promptly sent the Z straight back. I now own the Xonar ST (PCI version of the STX) with an OPA627 opamp upgrade...  its certainly light years ahead of the Z for music and I rate it easily as my best value audio buy period.


----------



## wilflare

ari33 said:


> Yes, I briefly owned the Z which was supposed to be an upgrade to my old Audigy 2ZS  (connected to a stereo amp using phonos) I was quite shocked to find that I much prefered the smoothness of the Audigy 2ZS to the harsh, grainy and very digital sounding Z and promptly sent the Z straight back. I now own the Xonar ST (PCI version of the STX) with an OPA627 opamp upgrade...  its certainly light years ahead of the Z for music and I rate it easily as my best value audio buy period.




sigh. haha I'm kinda regretting my Sound Blaster ZX now. 

would sending the ZX via optical out to Schiit Stack offer sound better than the STX? (while allowing me to keep virtual surround?) 

sigh. maybe I should have gone back to my STX (but I got the SBZX mainly for gaming)


----------



## Ari33

wilflare said:


> would sending the ZX via optical out to Schiit Stack offer sound better than the STX? (while allowing me to keep virtual surround?)


 
  
 Yep, using optical out obviously bypasses the ZX's DAC and keeps Virtual surround. I don't have a Schitt Stack to be able to say for sure if it would be better than an STX but yeah it should be up there or there abouts I'd think.


----------



## wilflare

ari33 said:


> Yep, using optical out obviously bypasses the ZX's DAC and keeps Virtual surround. I don't have a Schitt Stack to be able to say for sure if it would be better than an STX but yeah it should be up there or there abouts I'd think.


 
  
 thanks. man. this sound business is expensive stuff -looks at wallet and weeps-


----------



## paps79

Hi there! I'm looking for recommendation/help.
  
 I have an ASUS G55VW-DH71 laptop with a VIA High Definition Audio sound card and recently got a Sennheiser G4me One headset to improve, mainly, my gaming experience.
  
 First impression using the headset was underwhelming.
  
 Gaming:
 Playing BF3, the volume is quite low and the expected soundstage or positional cues are simply not as I hoped for, at least based on the reviews I've read. I also tried the Razer Surround software and even though I can detect an effort in the surround department, I did not find it clear or even pleasing enough to use it further. Some limited time in other games fared a bit better (Far Cry 3, Day of Defeat: Source) at least in the volume department.
  
Music: 
Again I find the volume is not loud enough. In fact, my phone (Note II) with my Sennheiser-Adidas CX 680 earphones sound much louder and perhaps clearer (?) than the G4me One's.
  
 So here I am researching on how to get the best out of my headset.
  
My primary wish is for the positional awareness I can get from FPS games and then an overall gaming experience. Music comes after but it's a big plus if it gets improved as well (I'd love to enjoy the occasional track through headphones).
  
From what I've read and listened to so far, my heart was set on CMSS-3D compared to other surround technologies and X-Fi Titanium HD as the sound card.
 However, I have a laptop so I would need something external, so I found out about the X-Fi Surround 5.1 (which it seems it's a bit hard to find these days - discontinued?-).
  
 Now, I read, in probably more than one place, that CMSS-3D on external sound cards is software based and not as good as in internal sound cards which is hardware based.
  
 Is this true and does it apply to the X-Fi Surround 5.1?
 Are there any other significant limitations of the X-Fi Surround 5.1 compared to X-Fi Titanium HD, especially ones that I would miss out based on my needs?
 Any other recommendations?
  
 I've also looked into Dac/Amps but I guess those don't help with gaming?
  
 I should also note that I'm not bothered much with bass heavy sounds and that my onboard sound card has SPDIF, if that helps in any way.
  
 Thank you.


----------



## GoldenboyXD

paps79 said:


> Hi there! I'm looking for recommendation/help.
> 
> I have an ASUS G55VW-DH71 laptop with a VIA High Definition Audio sound card and recently got a Sennheiser G4me One headset to improve, mainly, my gaming experience.
> 
> ...


 
 X-Fi Surround 5.1 is hardware based so don't worry. There are no gaming difference in terms of sound compared to Titanium HD using CMSS-3D. The Titanium HD benefits a good sound in terms of Music compared to non-HD.
  
 Since you are using a laptop, the X-Fi Surround 5.1 best fit for you and you can use it on a PC in the future if you want and just add another decent Headphone AMP/DAC combo for an excellent sound!


----------



## silikone

Which external sound cards support Dolby Headphone? Are any of them driverless?
 Such a thing would be an instant buy for me. I love the idea of plug n play audio that only depends on generic USB audio support. A switch to toggle between virtual surround and plain stereo would make my life so much easier.


----------



## genclaymore

fegefeuer said:


> The future is bright
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The closest thing i come to being like that picture, is the 3D vision 2 glasses.  
  
  
 Quote:


silikone said:


> Which external sound cards support Dolby Headphone? Are any of them driverless?
> Such a thing would be an instant buy for me. I love the idea of plug n play audio that only depends on generic USB audio support. A switch to toggle between virtual surround and plain stereo would make my life so much easier.


 
 Asus Xonar U3 is one that does support dolby headphone, it also has a combo jack for Spdif out with a mini toslink adapter.


----------



## paps79

goldenboyxd said:


> X-Fi Surround 5.1 is hardware based so don't worry. There are no gaming difference in terms of sound compared to Titanium HD using CMSS-3D. The Titanium HD benefits a good sound in terms of Music compared to non-HD.
> 
> Since you are using a laptop, the X-Fi Surround 5.1 best fit for you and you can use it on a PC in the future if you want and just add another decent Headphone AMP/DAC combo for an excellent sound!


 
  
 Thank you for the reply.
  
I've searched further though and the difference it seems is the lack of Game mode (missing MacroFX and Elevation Filter)?
 So I guess I would be compromising as I've made a panic buy this morning on a new listing on ebay. :/
 I hope it's still good enough (any idea what I would be missing?).
  
 I'm curious about other options though. What are other popular external sound cards for gaming?
 So far I've seen Asus Xonar U3 and U7 mentioned around.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Soundblaster Omi, soon Soundblaster X7


----------



## Evshrug

wilflare said:


> thanks. man. this sound business is expensive stuff -looks at wallet and weeps-




Don't cry to head-Fi man, you were repeatedly told on several threads that the Zx was the worst value in the current Soundblaster line. But you bought it anyway, and your recent post was the first time I remember you saying that you had an STX... The comparable Soundblaster model would've been the ZxR, though we would've still recommended against using the ACM unit.


----------



## wilflare

evshrug said:


> Don't cry to head-Fi man, you were repeatedly told on several threads that the Zx was the worst value in the current Soundblaster line. But you bought it anyway, and your recent post was the first time I remember you saying that you had an STX... The comparable Soundblaster model would've been the ZxR, though we would've still recommended against using the ACM unit.




sigh. let me put it this way. I got a ZX at the price of a Z. there's no reason for me not to get a ZX then right? 

and yeap, I used to have an STX when I first did up my current PC back in 2009 but sold it in 2010 or something and got the Audinst HUD-MX1. And now that I'm getting a soundcard again, it seems like I'm back to square one.. and perhaps I should never have should the STX then (I was predominantly a Speakers user then... Headphones are a recent thing for me) 

and yea... the thought of getting a Schiit Stack to go along... wallet weeps.


----------



## Evshrug

The reason not to get the Zx (which I'll tell you again for like the fifth time or something, don't sigh at me), is because the only thing you get that's different between the Z and the Zx is the ACM, which will make the sound worse. The Soundcard part is literally exactly the same.

The ZxR has a DAC and amp on the level of the STX card (and both have swappable opamps), but I have no idea what the SQ of the audinst is. Stillhart had both an Omni (which has the same DAC as the Z and Zx) and an optical Modi at the same time (both connected to the same external amp), and he said that it was hard to distinguish between them. Later he tried two higher end DACs and then he definitely could hear a difference, but I trust him when he says the Modi was more of a sidegrade, again I would advise you to not waste money. The Magni might be an upgrade but I don't know for sure; personally I'm satisfied with the Omni bare for gaming when I don't feel like hooking up my higher end Bifrost Über and tube amp, I've never auditioned a Magni.

SIGH.


----------



## wilflare

evshrug said:


> The reason not to get the Zx (which I'll tell you again for like the fifth time or something, don't sigh at me), is because the only thing you get that's different between the Z and the Zx is the ACM, which will make the sound worse. The Soundcard part is literally exactly the same.
> 
> The ZxR has a DAC and amp on the level of the STX card (and both have swappable opamps), but I have no idea what the SQ of the audinst is. Stillhart had both an Omni (which has the same DAC as the Z and Zx) and an optical Modi at the same time (both connected to the same external amp), and he said that it was hard to distinguish between them. Later he tried two higher end DACs and then he definitely could hear a difference, but I trust him when he says the Modi was more of a sidegrade, again I would advise you to not waste money. The Magni might be an upgrade but I don't know for sure; personally I'm satisfied with the Omni bare for gaming when I don't feel like hooking up my higher end Bifrost Über and tube amp, I've never auditioned a Magni.
> 
> SIGH.


 
  
 thanks for the inputs on the Schiit Modi and Magni. Guess I'll hold it off for now. 
 I was really thinking of just using the ZX for its DSP features and then let the Schiit Modi and Magni be the DAC and AMP respectively.
 But since it's a sidegrade, guess I'll just hold off and see what else there is in the future.
  
 The Magni is an interesting proposition - seeing how it's suggested by some to use with the Mixamp (for PS4) and I guess its quality as an amp should be pretty good as well (if not better than those on the Z/ZX?)
  
 and thanks for the reminder on the ZX, I hear you. I really did hear you the first time. But I thought if I can get the ZX at the same price of a Z, why not. I probably won't use the ACM (looking at all your suggestions) but it is pretty convenient.
 - So if I ever get sick of reaching over the rear of my PC to plug/unplug my headphones or miss adjusting the audio with a hardware knob, I might just plug it in... but for now, I probably won't use it.
 (unless for the ZX, the ACM must be plugged for it to work... if that happens ><)


----------



## GoldenboyXD

paps79 said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> I've searched further though and the difference it seems is the lack of Game mode (missing MacroFX and Elevation Filter)?
> So I guess I would be compromising as I've made a panic buy this morning on a new listing on ebay. :/
> ...


 
 The Game mode feature (MacroFX and Elevation Filter) for the other X-Fi card... I really don't know if there are any benefits but it was set as auto (default) and never changed it. lol
  
 I can't recommend aside from Creative since i have not tried other brands and don't like Dolby Headphone effects in Games based from what I've heard in YT videos. In movies i think DH will be great though.


----------



## RomanBurrr

PC audio is so confusing to a beginner like myself :/


----------



## RomanBurrr

@GoldenboyXD Can I ask you a couple of questions regarding the setup in your signature?


----------



## GoldenboyXD

romanburrr said:


> @GoldenboyXD Can I ask you a couple of questions regarding the setup in your signature?


 
 Sure. you can PM me if you like.


----------



## paps79

goldenboyxd said:


> The Game mode feature (MacroFX and Elevation Filter) for the other X-Fi card... I really don't know if there are any benefits but it was set as auto (default) and never changed it. lol
> 
> I can't recommend aside from Creative since i have not tried other brands and don't like Dolby Headphone effects in Games based from what I've heard in YT videos. In movies i think DH will be great though.


 
  
 I feel the same about Dolby Headphone, also based on youtube videos. On the other hand, CMSS-3D was impressive, especially its positional accuracy.


----------



## silikone

There is something about CMSS that I dislike. It seems harsh on my ears, and it also appears to normalize the audio, which can be very annoying. While Dolby Headphone colours the sound a lot to sound like a room, it does a really good job of widening the soundstage, which may or may not be a good thing.
 I like both over Razer Surround, which I think sounds like crap.


----------



## NamelessPFG

silikone said:


> There is something about CMSS that I dislike. It seems harsh on my ears, and it also appears to normalize the audio, which can be very annoying. While Dolby Headphone colours the sound a lot to sound like a room, it does a really good job of widening the soundstage, which may or may not be a good thing. I like both over Razer Surround, which I think sounds like crap.


 
  
 CMSS-3D Headphone tends to emphasize treble and dial down bass a bit. Dolby Headphone does the opposite. That might explain some of it.
  
 While the sound quality degradation is not lost on me, the positioning is what I prioritize, and thus far, the only thing that's even comparable to my ears for pinpoint positioning, enough to give me that "your head's in the game!" sensation, is Aureal A3D on a Vortex-chipset card set to headphone mode. This is, of course, assuming native DS3D/OAL/A3D (API) in particularly old cases.
  
 Not everyone is willing to sacrifice sound quality to that extent for better positioning, however. We need better options than the ones we have now, really.
  
 There are some promising new contenders out there, like RealSpace 3D Audio as Fegefeuer pointed out, but they have to be implemented on a per-game basis.


----------



## Piemonkey

I've got a small question, I just couldn't find a direct answer to it.

 I've got an O2+ODAC that I'm going to use with my desktop PC. I want to get SBX positional audio. Do I need to drop $~100 on a SBZ for it or can I get a cheaper Audigy Fx and have it simply forward that information to the O2+ODAC for sound quality and amping? The Creative site says the Audigy FX was made with SBZ Pro tech but I can't find anyone who's tried this config. It seems like everyone jumps straight to the SBZ.
  
 EDIT: Well, it appears that the FX doesn't support the "What U Hear" option so it's a no-go. Is my only option for positional sound through SBX a $100 card? Can't really get it used easily here (I've searched, they're all around the same price as new).


----------



## genclaymore

piemonkey said:


> I've got a small question, I just couldn't find a direct answer to it.
> 
> I've got an O2+ODAC that I'm going to use with my desktop PC. I want to get SBX positional audio. Do I need to drop $~100 on a SBZ for it or can I get a cheaper Audigy Fx and have it simply forward that information to the O2+ODAC for sound quality and amping? The Creative site says the Audigy FX was made with SBZ Pro tech but I can't find anyone who's tried this config. It seems like everyone jumps straight to the SBZ.
> 
> EDIT: Well, it appears that the FX doesn't support the "What U Hear" option so it's a no-go. Is my only option for positional sound through SBX a $100 card? Can't really get it used easily here (I've searched, they're all around the same price as new).


 
 The sound blaster omni has the what u hear option, it usually goes for 49-65 on ebay and on amazon.


----------



## GoldenboyXD

Hey guys, I wanted to ask the X-Fi Titanium 7.1 users if you have an option for MacroFX and Elevation Filter in (Game Mode) using headphone as speaker option? I'm finding it useful at the moment on my Titanium HD while gaming and not sure if this is also available in the previous model of X-Fi Titanium (non-HD)...
  
 I will replace it in the near future for a dedicated DAC/AMP.


----------



## genclaymore

goldenboyxd said:


> Hey guys, I wanted to ask the X-Fi Titanium 7.1 users if you have an option for MacroFX and Elevation Filter in (Game Mode) using headphone as speaker option? I'm finding it useful at the moment on my Titanium HD while gaming and not sure if this is also available in the previous model of X-Fi Titanium (non-HD)...
> 
> I will replace it in the near future for a dedicated DAC/AMP.


 

 It's should be on most X-FI cards as long they are using the mode launchers.


----------



## GoldenboyXD

Thanks! I do know that the older X-Fi Surround 5.1 don't have this feature. Just confirming.


----------



## Johnlemonade

Hi everyone. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I'm seeking for a new soundcard, for a specific use with my Hi-Fi / Gaming installation.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 To be simple, I'd like to unify my installation for Hi-Fi and gaming, and send all digital signals into SPDIF of my external DAC / Headphone amp. (An Audio-GD NFB-5) Both from games and Hi-Fi.
  
 Currently, I use this DAC connected in USB on my PC, exclusively for Hi-Fi use. And on the other hand, I use a Creative Sound Blaster Recon3D USB for gaming use, with my PC (With USB), and my PlayStation 4. (With SPDIF optical input)
  
 All this little world is ruled by an (fantastic) ATH W1000X. Actually, the headphone needs to switch audio device, depending on what I want to do. (DAC for Hifi, and Recon3D for games.) It's not very convenient. And the headphone output of the soundcard is seriously under-powered, and the sound is too heavy and dark.
  
 So, This is what I'd like to do with a new soundcard :
  
 * The PS4 send Dolby Digital signal via SPDIF optical output, and enter into the soundcard by a compatible SPDIF input. And it is decoded by the soundcard. (A bit hard to found I think. SPDIF inputs of soundcards are often only have PCM 2.0 support.)
 * The soundcard virtualises the 5.1 sound into a 2.0 PCM signal, with binaural effects. (CCMS-3D, Dolby Headphone, whatever...)
 * The signal is sent to my DAC, through soundcard's SPDIF output. (No matter if coaxial or optical, the DAC have both them.)
  
 In this way, all my entertainment will be convert by my external DAC. Games, movies and of course, Hi-Fi.
  
 I prefer a PCI soundcard, because the two PCI-E 1x ports of my mother board are blocked by my GPU card. (It is very thick.) And it will be far better with an external soundcard, because I'll don't need to leave my PC switched on, when I use the PS4.
  
 Thanks you for your ideas.


----------



## Johnlemonade

Anyone, please ? 

I know that's easier to get answers with 3000 posts in user's profile, than only two posts... let's be honnest.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I don't know of any card to decode AC3 to CMSS-3D from SPDIF or similar. My old X-Fi Xtreme Music could do it though. 
  
 Best option is the upcoming Soundblaster X7 which offers AC3-> SPDIF IN -> SBX binaural stereo while also having an optical out for passthrough of SBX binaural stereo.


----------



## pietcux

johnlemonade said:


> Anyone, please ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 That is nonsense. You just want a very complex solution for everything. And probably noone here has such a setup. Let alone the PS4 addition is very unusual for this thread, as ths is all about PC gaming audio.
 But the new Cereative flagship could be for you. Seems to be a Jack of All Trades or Swiss Knife like....


----------



## Johnlemonade

Nice option, but it is a bit disproportionnate to get only binaural sound on SPDIF output. But that's interesting. And it seems to be a confidential product, which will probably never be launched outside the US. (I live in France, so...)
  
 Guess I need to forgive this possibility.


----------



## Fegefeuer

what? What do you want out of the SPDIF besides PCM stereo, PCM 2.0 binaural stereo, Dolby Digital? Well, I'd like DTS but that won't happen. What else though?
  
 It will also launch in France right through Amazon.fr


----------



## Johnlemonade

Of course, this device can do what I want. But it will probably overpriced and have 95% of useless features for my use. (Don't need the headphone amp section, don't need speakers outputs...)
  
 But this is a good discovery, and I will follow it.


----------



## Ari33

johnlemonade said:


> ...Don't need the headphone amp section...


 
  
 You did say your cards HP out was seriously underpowered which to me suggests you most likely do need a HP amped card, no? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I recently bought a modded Xonar ST, its my first ever card with an amped HP out and it has totally transformed my HP listening experience, I hadn't realised I really needed more HP power until I got it,  It's also given me so many more possibilities with Headphone choice, I'll never buy another soundcard without one.


----------



## Johnlemonade

Edit : OK, I don't say HP, but speakers output.
  
 In french, we use HP for "Haut-Parleurs". Speakers in english.
  
 Sorry about that.


----------



## Ari33

johnlemonade said:


> Edit : OK, I don't say HP, but speakers output.
> 
> In french, we use HP for "Haut-Parleurs". Speakers in english.
> 
> Sorry about that.


 
  
 No worries... thanks for the explanation.


----------



## wilflare

johnlemonade said:


> Anyone, please ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 you may wanna try your question here instead
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/534479/mad-lust-envys-headphone-gaming-guide-update-7-9-2014-ultrasone-hfi-15g-added


----------



## paps79

Hello again,
  
 So I got the X-Fi surround 5.1 USB card a couple of days ago.
  
 Can anyone recommend settings for gaming, mainly FPS? 
  
 Currently, I have X-Fi CMSS 3D enabled at 50% Stereo Envelopment (whatever that means - default setting).
  
 EAX effects and X-Fi Crystalizer are disabled.


----------



## genclaymore

Use CMSS in headphone mode and not the speaker CMSS and then set windows and games to 5.1.


----------



## GoldenboyXD

genclaymore said:


> Use CMSS in headphone mode and not the speaker CMSS and then set windows and games to 5.1.


 
 Correct!


----------



## paps79

Thanks guys!


----------



## Merzbro

It's been a while since I've posted in this thread but I'm kind of over the whole virtual surround thing now. 
  
 I'm using a Fiio E10K and HD 598s/AKG K550s on my desktop and an Astro A40 Mixamp (old version) for my consoles. 
  
 I have a lot of issues with the mixamp though, and since I don't care about Dolby Headphone anymore I thought I'd re-evaluate my set up. 
  
 There's a sequence of annoying popping noises when I start an application from my PS3 homescreen, sometimes even in-game when transitioning to pre-rendered FMV sequences like in FFX HD. 
  
 And in some games as well as the PSN store the audio pops when scrolling a menu quickly or just randomly like in MGS Rising. 
  
 I guess I can just use RCA Out into an amplifier for Stereo?
  
 I already have my Fiio E10K but that just has one USB port so I'd have to get a splitter of some kind.


----------



## SilverfoxAlpha

I'm currently a console gamer and a PC gamer (got a gaming PC a few months ago, and this is now where I do 90% of my gaming). 
  
 I got the Astro A40 (headset and mixamp) for my PS4, and used it for the PC.
  
 Then a few days ago I bought the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi HD USB, thinking this would be a good step up from the astro mixamp, for listening to music it is as I get more juice from it, but in terms of gaming it's horrible.
  
 The software I have for it is the Creative Entertainment Console, and I've enabled surround in there, which is of course better than not having it enabled, but it's still very much inferior to my PS4 and Astro mixamp. The positioning isn't as good, and the immersion is just off. Some things are too loud, some things are too quiet etc... It's just off. 
  
 I see in various guides and stuff that I should turn gaming mode on, but I don't have a gaming mode. The software looks like what it does in the screenshots, except I have fewer screens and fewer options on those screens, and where there is a gamemode button in guides, there isn't one in my software. This is the stuff I got on the disc that followed.
  
 So my question is, how do I fix this?
  
 Am I not setting it up right in the software (if so, how do I fix it?), do I have the wrong software (and where can I get the right software?), or do I simply have the wrong hardware? Should I instead have an internal soundcard or something like that?
  
 The Sound Blaster thing is bought at a computer shop where I can just come back with it and either get another product or my money back if I'm not happy with it, so if I'd be better off with another piece of hardware at a reasonably comparable price (or a little higher too), they'll happily take this one back. So is the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi HD USB something I want for mostly gaming and a bit of music, or should I be going for something else?


----------



## genclaymore

If your store has a sound blaster omni, that would be a better choice.


----------



## SilverfoxAlpha

Well I don't know if they do, but in either case I can get my money back and buy somewhere else if there's something else that would be better suited. But my problem is that I cant figure out how to set the thing up. I very much suspect that I'd be fine with the one I have if I could just get a software that would have a "game mode" or something. The actual sound I get from it is great, it just seems to be a problem of configuring it, and all the screenshots I see from the guides have more options than my version of it does.


----------



## wilflare

how do I go about using my Sound Blaster ZX purely as a DSP?
 do I just turn on "What U Hear" and have it playback over my USB DAC? (which serves as an excellent hardware audio knob)
 would that work?


----------



## genclaymore

Yes it will just make sure to check play sound thru this device when you do.


----------



## wilflare

genclaymore said:


> Yes it will just make sure to check play sound thru this device when you do.


 
  
 thanks! this is great news!
 hmm what should I set the sample rate and bit-rate for both the "What U Hear" and Sound Blaster Z though?
  
 and within the Sound Blaster Control Panel, it seems like all the settings for Speakers/Headphones make no difference?!
  
 ----
 one more question, how should I go about configuring Netflix or my anime files (they have surround sound encoded) to my headphones (via virtual surround)?


----------



## genclaymore

I would say leave the sample rate and bit rate to the default, also make sure your default sound device in the control panel is set to speakers.  You config the creative panel to 5.1 in the speakers side. the switch it to headphone's where the 5.1 settings will stick. Then you config SBX surround, usually the default % works with the rest of the setting in that tab disable.  As for movies they will output in whatever is set in the windows control panel which should be on 5.1.


----------



## ShadowSkulkerer

Hello all. I have been reading much of this thread for a while now and have a headache. I'm completely new to this and there is too much information, terms I do not comprehend and variable dependancies. I'm hoping to post a bit of information of what I want to do and get a fairly simply explained solution. Like what combination of equipment would do what I want.

So. Let's say I get the Fidelio X2. What pairs well with it?
I want Dolby Surround.
I'd like this to sound good for music too. (Country and classic rock (e.g phill collins))
Will having a soundcard negate the need for an amp or DAC to any extent? 
I want to have an Xbox1 as well, so maybe I'd best have those...
I want to be able to talk through a modmic on PC and console.
I want to run Linux. Probably Mint.


----------



## rudyae86

I had the x1 paired with my creative labs recon3d and it paired really well. The good thing about the recon3d usb is that i can use it with a ps3 or ps4 and also with my PC. Mic is a vmoda boom bro and everything works right...problem is recon3d usb is discontinued, so the next best thing would be the creative x7 but to pricey. Also, you dont really need amping with the x1 or x2, used it without an amp and sound great


----------



## ShadowSkulkerer

rudyae86 said:


> I had the x1 paired with my creative labs recon3d and it paired really well. The good thing about the recon3d usb is that i can use it with a ps3 or ps4 and also with my PC. Mic is a vmoda boom bro and everything works right...problem is recon3d usb is discontinued, so the next best thing would be the creative x7 but to pricey. Also, you dont really need amping with the x1 or x2, used it without an amp and sound great


 

I don't understand how everything hooks up to your console. I wish I could see pictures. What about Xbox? What are the differences between that and a card you plug into a PCI slot? What about a DAC?


----------



## rudyae86

The recon3d connects to a console via optical while the usb is for chat capabilities. The recon3d is also compatible with the xbox...if you need pictures or more info.....google is your friend lol. Im on my phone right now...if i was near my computer i would post more links.

Plus differences...mmm im also not an expert between comparisons on pci cards and usb...someone else might need to answer that


----------



## ShadowSkulkerer

rudyae86 said:


> The recon3d connects to a console via optical while the usb is for chat capabilities. The recon3d is also compatible with the xbox...if you need pictures or more info.....google is your friend lol. Im on my phone right now...if i was near my computer i would post more links.
> 
> Plus differences...mmm im also not an expert between comparisons on pci cards and usb...someone else might need to answer that




Well you've been extremely helpful. I was looking at the x7 though... As expensive as it is I wonder if it might just do everything I want it to and do it well. But I don't even know exactly what I do and don't need yet so I wouldn't want to foolishly drop cash on that.

Reading some reviews though I don't think the Recon is for me.

EDIT: After a break followed by some further reading and you're few simple explanations and pieces of advice I believe a lot of things fell together for me.

I think I'll go with the X2 a good sound card for my PC and a mixamp for console. As far as I can tell a good sound card will be an ideal DAC/Amp for my PC so I can listen to music or use Dolby for games. And the mixamp will be best for consoles. Does it work for PS4?


----------



## rudyae86

shadowskulkerer said:


> Well you've been extremely helpful. I was looking at the x7 though... As expensive as it is I wonder if it might just do everything I want it to and do it well. But I don't even know exactly what I do and don't need yet so I wouldn't want to foolishly drop cash on that.
> 
> Reading some reviews though I don't think the Recon is for me.
> 
> ...


 
 Well, I think for now, getting a soundcard for your PC and a mixamp for consoles, may be the better choice. The only reason I got the recon3d is because it was cheaper and I can use it for both PC and console. Plus alot of people prefer THX Surround sound or SBX for gaming compared to dolby headphone. X7 might be the jack of all trades......at least for now until new technology comes along and replaces it....especially since Dolby Headphone X or DTS Headphone X (cant remember which one is its true name) has been out for a few weeks and some people are liking it, although its new tech and we wont see it mature anytime soon....maybe in about 2 years, that tech would have been improved alot.

 if you are planning to get a soundcard for your PC, alot of peeps are recommending the creative labs Z, which is said to be on par with a modi's sound quality. Im thinking of buying one for my PC as well and keep the recon3d for my ps3/ps4. I will also be purchasing the X2, since i sold my x1 2 weeks ago....but Ill probobly buy either a Q701 or K712 for gaming....currently using sennheiser PC350 Special Editions for now. Might start using my MA900 since i have not touch them for like 7 months lol.


----------



## SpiderNhan

I just got my Sound Blaster Z today and have been putting it through its paces in Bioshock 2. Before the SBZ I was getting my surround kicks via Razer Surround feeding an Aune T1>FiiO E9>AKG Q701. The surround effect was much better than I expected, although it sounded a little closed in as far as positional accuracy was concerned. Once I got my SBZ hooked up going through the same path; Aune T1>FiiO E9>AKG Q701. I found that 100% SBX Prostudio sounded the most spacious and accurate, but all in all it was about on par with Razer Surround. Neither one, in terms of positional accuracy and surround since they're both using the same DAC/amp chain as output, sounded better than the other. I was disappointed that the performance of the SBZ, which paid money for, wasn't any better than the my free software based Razer Surround.
  
 Then I decided to go crazy. Now my chain is Razer Surround>Sound Blaster Z>Aune T1>FiiO E9>AKG Q701. We've all heard about double amping, but what about double DSPing? Sound stage is HUGE now and positional cues are way more accurate. I have a day off tomorrow so I'll keep playing with it to see if there are any glitches or crashes, but initial impressions are incredible.


----------



## RomanBurrr

Why do you use the Fiio E9, if the Aune is both an amp and a dac?


----------



## SpiderNhan

I don't like the Aune's amp. It's sounds weak and lacks dynamics especially with the Q701. Running the T1 into a cMoy sounds better than its internal amp.


----------



## RomanBurrr

Do you have the first or the second generation T1?


----------



## SpiderNhan

First.


----------



## muksuluuri

I've been running SB Z + Beyer MMX-300 combo for the last year or so and it has served me well. However, I recently bought Fostex TH-600 headphones and have a Violectric V200 amp coming my way; I'm about to pull the trigger on Titanium HD, as I figure a), HD's DAC is better than Z's and b), I would rather not double-amp the signal as I would be doing if I plugged the Violectric to the Z's headphone out.
 
Is my logic sound? This setup will be used for 90% for gaming, 10% for general tomfoolery. 
 
I also have an unused Titanium non-hd NIB somewhere, looking to sell that one and the Z if I go for the HD.
 
Cheerios.


Edit: i went ahead and ordered the TiHD; I believe it's a future classic that won't be available in stores much longer, plus I have never been completely convinced by SBX's take on headphone surround.


----------



## kezzo

Hi, i just bought sony mdr 1rnc and using it with pc onboard 2 days. Sound performance is amazing even without amp or soundcard.
  
 i bought it for gaming and movies, which totally fits.
  
 i ordered a surround dolby souncard, it ll be full performance.
  
 but its kinda heavy and cable length is really short.


----------



## cdsa35000

Thanks for this thread about Core3D because Dolby headphone reverberation sounds crap with games, tested DH1 on Creative HQ2300D and DH1/2/3 on MARANTZ SR5500.

I got my Recon3D USB (also as standalone for DD5.1 (optical input) surround decoder for PS3 etc.) and my verdict is: Core3D THX truStudio Pro/SBX Pro Studio is the best for Virtual Surround Gaming.
My test/soundgear: Musical Fidelity X-CAN V3 hybrid mosfet tube headamp (modded powersupply/caps/directline solder/tube rolling) with perfect synergy to SONY SA5000 (modded repaired with pair sa3000 drivers/vinyl piece to closed back/inside dampening).

You were asking because you know DH doesn't sound right with games i.e. when the game figure's walking in the grass/grind/openfield and you hear footsteps with DH reverberations is just NOT Live like or game intended, its colored with DH roomsized reverberations.
DH is only good/designed for DD movies, it can be good if there was an option to just disable the reveberations.

What we need is just the simulation of 5.1/7.1 speakers setup into the headphone with adjustable/variable on/off effects. And the Core3D can deliver it.

I test it with Wolfenstein 2009 set game audio option to 7.1 and Windows audio device speakers config to 7.1 surround.
Because above and without enabling THX surround Core3D 'll standard simulate/convert game 7.1 as "source direct/bypass" without additional reverberations/effects etc. into Virtual 7.1 HRTF headphone. not true it's just stereo but since SA5000/X-CAN sounded so good it almost seems like surround but the front/back cue was missing, so I use now THX surround at 60% to have 7.1 surround.

If desired there many sound (overprocessed) tweaks possible.
---
As I prefer natural Live-like sounding and as intended, I play Wolfenstein without any THX effects and it sounds perfect!
Ofcource the distinctive simulation of distance from the Front and the Back sounds is not as distinguish as from real 7.1 speakers, but close and satisfying.

Headphone surround sounds much better/louder/more details/more immersive like you were inside the game and without disturbing noises from neighbors/outside is just perfect!

My search for the Best Virtual Surround Headphones is Completed!


----------



## dmbr

cdsa35000 said:


> Thanks for this thread about Core3D because Dolby headphone reverberation sounds crap with games, tested DH1 on Creative HQ2600 and DH1/2/3 on MARANTZ SR5500.
> 
> I got my Recon3D USB (also as standalone for DD5.1 (optical input) surround decoder for PS3 etc.) and my verdict is: Core3D THX truStudio Pro/SBX Pro Studio is the best for Virtual Surround Gaming.
> My test/soundgear: Musical Fidelity X-CAN V3 hybrid mosfet tube headamp (modded powersupply/caps/directline solder/tube rolling) with perfect synergy to SONY SA5000 (modded repaired with pair sa3000 drivers/vinyl piece to closed back/inside dampening).
> ...


 Did you try Razer Surround?

Frankly the Recon seems absurdly overpriced. Why not buy a quality $200 DAC/Amp and free surround?


----------



## rudyae86

cdsa35000 said:


> Thanks for this thread about Core3D because Dolby headphone reverberation sounds crap with games, tested DH1 on Creative HQ2600 and DH1/2/3 on MARANTZ SR5500.
> 
> I got my Recon3D USB (also as standalone for DD5.1 (optical input) surround decoder for PS3 etc.) and my verdict is: Core3D THX truStudio Pro/SBX Pro Studio is the best for Virtual Surround Gaming.
> My test/soundgear: Musical Fidelity X-CAN V3 hybrid mosfet tube headamp (modded powersupply/caps/directline solder/tube rolling) with perfect synergy to SONY SA5000 (modded repaired with pair sa3000 drivers/vinyl piece to closed back/inside dampening).
> ...


 

 Good to know there is still a few using the recon3d usb. I own one...got it for 70 bucks this year in January. I honestly like it more than DH. Tried my friends mix amp pro on his ps4 and my recon3d just sounds better overall, to my taste at least.

 I have thx surround sound enabled all the way to 100 and used it in the beginning at default 67 and there really isnt much difference between the two other than you can hear the rear speakers more but not by alot.

 when i do comptetive fps, i do just thx surround and disable everything.
  
 when I play for immersion or just fun, i enable thx surround, bass and the last option which i forgot the name for...dialogue something.
  
 May you tell us how you have it set up usually or what differences it makes?
  
 EVShrug has given us a great review but It would be nice to read your views in more detail.
  
 I also have it set up in windows to 7.1 but switch it back to stereo whenever I listen to music, since for some reason, when i leave it in 7.1...some music or some videos on youtube sounds grainy and static....but it doesnt happen for all the songs or videos...could it be just the video or song recording or source?


----------



## cdsa35000

dmbr said:


> Did you try Razer Surround?
> 
> Frankly the Recon seems absurdly overpriced. Why not buy a quality $200 DAC/Amp and free surround?



I bought it for $95, problem with software surround is the CPU load causing soundlag and framerate drops, since I have core2duo 2.93GHz.
Besides that it's also a standalone DD surround decoder for my PS3. So my multiple usage is worth the price.
With hardware core3d decoding, games run much smoother now because of 10% less CPU strain that onboard Realtek DDL cause to.

All other newer Creative USB audio use software SBX Pro surround decoding only and you can buy the software SBX surround for $30 from their webshop.
Besides Razer surround is malware as nothing is really free and don't sound as good as THX/SBX surround:
SBX vs. CMSS-3D vs. Razer vs. Dolby vs. Realtek - headphone game sound test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BxO9cd-sYA


----------



## dmbr

cdsa35000 said:


> I bought it for $95, problem with software surround is the CPU load causing soundlag and framerate drops, since I have core2duo 2.93GHz.
> Besides that it's also a standalone DD surround decoder for my PS3. So my multiple usage is worth the price.
> With hardware core3d decoding, games run much smoother now because of 10% less CPU strain that onboard Realtek DDL cause to.
> 
> ...


Come now, there's nothing about Razer Surround that could be considered "malware"-like. No hit to FPS in my games, either, according to my benchmarks. I couldn't be happier with it for gaming.


----------



## cdsa35000

dmbr said:


> Come now, there's nothing about Razer Surround that could be considered "malware"-like. No hit to FPS in my games, either, according to my benchmarks. I couldn't be happier with it for gaming.



Thats good for you since you have a powerful enough PC. In my case Im happy now with my setup.
I did considered installing Razer Surround but didn't bother to register/buy? an account and there're bad reviews everywhere.


----------



## dmbr

What bad reviews? It's the favorite choice over at OCN.


----------



## cdsa35000

http://www.head-fi.org/t/669696/razer-surround-7-1-virtualization-software
just hate the synapse procedure.


----------



## cdsa35000

rudyae86 said:


> Good to know there is still a few using the recon3d usb. I own one...got it for 70 bucks this year in January. I honestly like it more than DH. Tried my friends mix amp pro on his ps4 and my recon3d just sounds better overall, to my taste at least.
> 
> I have thx surround sound enabled all the way to 100 and used it in the beginning at default 67 and there really isnt much difference between the two other than you can hear the rear speakers more but not by alot.
> 
> ...



I only use THX Surround at 60% (all others disabled) for 5.1/7.1 games/movies/music and THX disabled for stereo contents without changing the 7.1 speakers setting. 
With THX surround I can hear good enough separation between front and back cues, if set higher than 60 sounds gets overcrowded mids/processed/distorted/closer distance/not realistic/missing air sounding.

Reasons that you don't hear too much difference is because your headphone is not able/sensitive to reproduce accurately the given audio signals and/or the synergy's mismatched to your ears.
And all other gimmicks Crystalizer=treble booster, Bass=bass booster with subwoofer crossover freq. adjustment, Smart Volume= volume normalizer, Dialog Plus= volume booster to center (voice) channel of 5.1/7.1 surr. These are gimmicks adjustment make for crappy sounding headphones to sound "better".

My reference of surround sound is real-life everday environment's 3D sounds and that's full of airy/dynamic/vibrant/space/3 dimension's full freq. bass/mids/treble range sounds/noises.
To reproduce the audio signals as is was recorded, the ideal headphone's drivers must have a flat Frequency Response of 0dB straightline over 20Hz-20kHz, means it can reproduce human hearable-range sounds without any alternation.
Ref:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-data-sheet-downloads
http://www.head-fi.org/t/168037/db-per-milliwhat-efficiency-vs-sensitivity-vs-how-loud-do-they-really-go
http://blog.codinghorror.com/3d-positional-audio-and-hrtfs/
http://interface.cipic.ucdavis.edu/sound/tutorial/hrtf.html
http://interface.cipic.ucdavis.edu/sound/tutorial/simplesys.html

Download the datasheets of your headphone X1 http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/PhilipsFidelioX1.pdf, my SA5000 http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SonyMDRVSA5000.pdf and HD800 http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800.pdf.





http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-measurements-explained-square-wave-response-page-2

As you can see the X1 has the weakest Frequency Response of all, hense you cant hear the surround details in the mids/high freq. range thus missing the Live realism. 
In theory HD800 is the best flattest FR but due the sinewave 300-600 Ohms impedance, it 'll need a powerfull headamp.

In practise my SA5000 is the best sounding as it were having a built-in Equalizer of +5dB from 100Hz to 2kHz and treble tip around 10kHz, hense I can hear all the vibrant surround expanded sounds clearly.
Any good sounding audio gear don't need/use any compensation of EQ/bass booster/loudness etc.

-Lucky for you can compensate the X1 shortcomings with the EQUALIZER controls.
Follow the logaritmic FR chart's Red-line as 10 20 30.. 100 200 300... 1000 2000 3000...10000 etc. 
Adjust the line close to 0dB as possible means:
Adjust EQ 31Hz=+8dB, 62=+2dB, 125=+5dB, 250=+7dB, 500=+10dB, 1k=+11dB, 2k=+13dB, 4k=+15dB, 8k=+13dB, 16k=+22dB.

Best is to google for (free) Frequency Response meter software with freq. sweep tone, so that you can use a microphone between the headphone to record/visualize the true FR line, so you can EQ the actual phone's FR.
---
Youtube use compressed lossy 128kbit audio and depends on uploader's audio quality is what it is, crap in = crap out.
Just decrease youtube's volume control to minimize the clipping sounds etc.


----------



## jordannn15

I know there are a couple listed in the OP but what would you guys recommend for a good gaming and music headphone under $500? I am really considering the HE-400's which is in the OP especially because the price is a lot lower in some places now. Is there something better you guys would recommend? I don't care if they are open or closed by the way. Thanks!


----------



## cdsa35000

That is so preference based who can decide what you like?, why don't you go listen to headphones on youtube reviews, go to headphones meet or order headphones with good return policy?

I have no experience with HE-400 but i know that weight 440 gram is too heavy for my head and its open design is too disturbing in my noisy environment. My SA5000 is 260 gram and have closed mod is just perfect comfortable to me.

Find out what sound's signature you aimed for, compare their data, read their reviews etc:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/headphone-data-sheet-downloads
http://www.head-fi.org/t/604583/hifiman-he-400-impressions-and-discussion-thread
---
My preference is Live-like sounds and since paper cone is the best natural sounding, I choose biocellulose drivers.
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/mother.htm
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/speaker.htm
http://www.head-fi.org/t/568694/biocellulose-and-its-use-in-headphones-earphones-referring-the-recent-iem-example-vsonic-gr-07-r07

To me all those non-porous plastic/poly materials/metal/crystal coated drivers sounds plastic-ish to me, they can't deliver the natural vibrations as the *porous paper/biocellulose fibre CD3000/nano Silica siO2-Polamide PA66 composite fibre SA5000 drivers*.
---
And since I'm DIY modder I modded my X-CAN and SA5000 sounds the best to me and now don't need anything else, because I have the sound's signature what I wanted.


----------



## ShadowSkulkerer

Question.  Possibly best placed in this thread rather than MLE's.  Will a good sound card with optical input be able to accept another device feeding into the soundcard and do it's processing thing and feed that to headphones/speakers?  So could I buy a sound card and have it work for PC and when I'm not using that I turn on my Xbox which is hooked up to the soundcard, (obviously PC is still running) and have the sound card do it's stuff for the Xbox?


----------



## genclaymore

Yea but you will have to use PCM audio mode on your xbox when you do it.Also make sure you get a sound card with optical input or you can plug the analog from your xbox into the line in on the sound card. Then use What U hear and select the main speaker as the output. To route the xbox audio to your main outputs.


----------



## ShadowSkulkerer

genclaymore said:


> Yea but you will have to use PCM audio mode on your xbox when you do it.Also make sure you get a sound card with optical input or you can plug the analog from your xbox into the line in on the sound card. Then use What U hear and select the main speaker as the output. To route the xbox audio to your main outputs.




To clarify. It will be an XBox One. So I only have optical audio aside from hdmi. And will the sound card provide virtual surround processing for the XBox? Because EvShrug in MLE's thread said internal soundcards only accept stereo input over optical. And wait... I can get virtual surround with just a sound card and a headphone right? I don't need a decoder as well?

This is confusing me so much!

"-Myth: S/PDIF (coaxial/optical digital audio) cannot do surround sound!
-Fact: I believe this misconception also made people believe in the above one about DSP effects not working. The problem is actually that PC games output all their surround channels in uncompressed PCM format (with few exceptions), and S/PDIF only has enough bandwidth for two channels of PCM. To fit more in, you need a codec like Dolby Digital or DTS.

The problem is, most games do not encode Dolby Digital or DTS on-the-fly, so the sound output device needs to support Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect for it to sound as intended. Once that's done, external A/V receivers and headphone DSPs like the Astro Mixamp, Turtle Beach Ear Force DSS, and JVC/Victor SU-DH1 will actually have some surround information to work with."

But console games must encode or you couldn't just use a decoder like the dss and get virtual surround.


----------



## Evshrug

Right, DDL 5.1 and DTS connect are basically mild compression algorithms among everything else, so they fit in the optical bandwidth.

A Soundcard can receive 2-Channel PCM and "fake" surround from that by adding reverb and kinda adding distance, but you're not going to get an accurate sense of front or behind. Stereo may be good enough for you and many don't like virtual surround... But it's a step up in my book.

Soundcard inputs not decoding DDL or DTSC is all due to licensing and the audio and movie companies not wanting you to record anything at better quality than a VCR/VHS tape... And they'd have stopped that too if they could. There are (complicated) ways around this, but... yeah.


----------



## cdsa35000

Just buy one of the cheapiest Yamaha, it should cover all the diversity of formats:
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V375-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B00B981F38

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx/rx-v375_black_u/?mode=model#page=2&mode=paging


----------



## ShadowSkulkerer

Wow... Well thanks. It looks like I'm back to where I initially took aim a long time ago. A soundcard with a good DAC and headphone amp for the PC, so I may have my DH or listen to music at good quality through headphones or Alesis MKII passive speakers, and a mixamp or dss for the console. 

cdsa3500,

I no longer entertain an interest in a receiver seeing as it will cost at least much as a soundcard, be a big piece of equipement, (space is an issue for me) and if I got one no more pricey than a sound card the DAC would likely be inferior and it's headphone amp to strong for low impedance headphones not to mention a slew of other things about headphone amps in receivers that I read much about and while there was much debate, I decided to steer clear of them.

Looking at this sound card. 

http://m.newegg.com/Product/index?itemnumber=29-271-004

I could still feed the stereo speakers, stereo sound from XBox through optical input.


----------



## Evshrug

What does that Clara Halo offer over a Soundblaster Z or ZxR? Does the halo even have headphone surround processing? And even so, I'm telling you... even ignoring my subjective opinion, objectively SBX is better than DH because it has less artificial reverb and distortion. Creative tech support isn't amazing, but it's there and actually been a decent help to me the one time I had a problem (resolution: firmware update), answered feature questions (the other night when I wanted to confirm the E5 doesn't decode DDL5.1 over optical), and they release software updates and new products. The Halo is PCI not the more modern PCIe (express, faster) slots, make sure your motherboard has those. Also I don't see connectors for passive speaker connections/amplification, so you'd need active (self-powered) speakers just like with the soundblasters (with the exception of the SoundBlaster X7).

Do you already have speakers?

Btw I have a friend who games with a projector, I think he likes it but in games with dark areas (like between battle areas in the Vault of Glass raid in Destiny) he literally can't see details cuz the darks are crushed to a uniform black. Good for movies (that aren't Blade) though!


----------



## Evshrug

OOOOOOH and you want to run Linux... Unless you know how to program, I wouldn't recommend Linux, because most companies don't support it and almost all software is hobbyist-community made, and inevitably you'll run into a situation where you'll need to make your own drivers or bridging code to get things to work. I would rather do things with a computer, rather than working on a computer to get it working for me... But that's me, maybe you have a lot of time.


----------



## ShadowSkulkerer

evshrug said:


> OOOOOOH and you want to run Linux... Unless you know how to program, I wouldn't recommend Linux, because most companies don't support it and almost all software is hobbyist-community made, and inevitably you'll run into a situation where you'll need to make your own drivers or bridging code to get things to work. I would rather do things with a computer, rather than working on a computer to get it working for me... But that's me, maybe you have a lot of time.




No. I have admitted defeat to running linux. I will be getting windows... Curse you mass market! My younger brother is real sharp on how computers work and loves linux, but alas I have not the technical expertise to even feign knowledge of much of these things. I gave up hope. Too many fences to jump, many things that will just never work and no I don't have a lot of spare time.

And I'm sure you are very right about the sound card. It just caught my eye and I thought, well why not another brand. But it offers nothing better than the ZxR. And heck, I don't know what any of this will sound like yet, so I can't be biased towards DH vs. SbX. I thought MLE said something negative about the Z series cards but I forget what

As for the Alesis MKII speakers I would be getting an amp. I don't know much about these and am looking for recommendations, but aren't there amps with component coax input?

BTW if I keep saying things that make you go
"Oh God, what is this man thinking?" Feel free to virtually smack me in the face across the internet.


----------



## Evshrug

Well I say that about Linux because you may not have realized that about all of what's involved, and the earlier thing about optical inputs basically so that you didn't buy a soundcard with that expectation and then wonder why headphone surround sounds like crap compared to PC audio surround. So you haven't made me groan or be annoyed, I mean that wouldn't be fair of me because you simply don't know yet (and it took me awhile to figure out, so... I'll try to save you time?)

Mad doesn't like 2 things about the Z series... Well, 3 things;
1.) He prefers DH. Subjective opinion, in the end, wins over all, and catering to your taste not a bad thing... At least he's open to try new stuff.
2.) At least a 10 ohm output impedance. So yeah, don't use it with high-sensitivity IEMs. But you were getting/have the AKG's right? Pretty linear impedance across the board, the effect of output impedance is small. If you chose a different headphone, go to InnerFidelity or something (Google) and look up a headphone's impedance response curves, if it has a pretty flat curve then you'll barely notice it (can you tell now the difference in two dB of volume?).
3.) he's a console gamer. He does have a laptop... That he picked because it had an HDMI input to use with consoles, hahah. He doesn't like to muck around with updates and drivers and antivirus etc. I personally have a Mac that also runs windows, an Xbox 360, and a PS4, I most often use the Mac and PS4 (right now playing Dreamcast, LOL!), so I like the external cards because they work with the Mac.

The X7 is perfect for me, because I have consoles and PC, AKG headphones (K612 and K712), an iPod with ALL my music, ipad&iphone for Bluetooth, and some Polk bookshelf speakers and STAX that also use speaker taps for power. The X7 seems made for me, lol. You gotta chose your best fit option.


----------



## ShadowSkulkerer

It's this combination of things that make the x7 look ideal to me as well... If it weren't so expensive. When does it release? Do we have an official date?

And I'm planning on getting the Fidelio X2.


----------



## rudyae86

Lol this guy reminds me of myself the first time I came here to head fi. Personally, the Recon3d would have been a more reliable option. Second, choosing between the akg k712 and the x2......Im on that fence too. One that requires a good tube amp while the other does not but one seems to pull off a bit from the other in terms of sound quality. It really depends what your budget is and what kind of sound you are looking for. Also, why not buy a sound card for pc and an astro mix amp for consoles? And just get the x2? I personally love the x1, had it for like 7 to 8 months, used it for everything but sold it recently. But now that i have the money, i cant decide if to get the x2 or the k712..... Decisions, decions, tsk tsk tsk.

Or if you dont want to spend so much, how about if you start with a headphone thats lower in price and once you habe enough money for the next headphone, you can sell it and buy the x2, could be cheaper by then!

I know how it feels man, we all wish we had an all in one option and one headphone that can do everything...but thats never going to happen here lol


----------



## ShadowSkulkerer

What you describe is pretty much spot on what I'm planning. Although I may get the Recon 3D for the console so I have SBX for both. But I just hit another roadblock. I discovered passive speakers require a power supply in addition to their amp... Phoooo. More complications and expense. But I guess that just means buying powered speakers would be massively simpler and probably cheaper for me.

EDIT: Maybe.. It _has_ gone up in price.


----------



## Evshrug

rudyae86 said:


> Lol this guy reminds me of myself the first time I came here to head fi. Personally, the Recon3d would have been a more reliable option. Second, choosing between the akg k712 and the x2......Im on that fence too. One that requires a good tube amp while the other does not but one seems to pull off a bit from the other in terms of sound quality. It really depends what your budget is and what kind of sound you are looking for. Also, why not buy a sound card for pc and an astro mix amp for consoles? And just get the x2? I personally love the x1, had it for like 7 to 8 months, used it for everything but sold it recently. But now that i have the money, i cant decide if to get the x2 or the k712..... Decisions, decions, tsk tsk tsk.
> 
> Or if you dont want to spend so much, how about if you start with a headphone thats lower in price and once you habe enough money for the next headphone, you can sell it and buy the x2, could be cheaper by then!




Why didn't you mention that you got the X1 at the 20-minute lowest sale price they were ever offered, and then resold for a $50-$70 profit like you always do? Lol. But yeah, saving up money, learning what kind of sound you're looking for... These things take time and personal testing.

But yeah, he would remind, because most people come here plying the forums to "cut to the chase, what's the best?" Thing is though, new blood is good, and my favourite part is the reactions and amateur impressions when they hear their music REALLY GOOD for the first time... ah yes. And it's cool when people use those stories and experiences to set expectations and "if I knew then what I know now" advice, some people disappear without really joining the community.

But yeah, back on topic... I strongly recommended the Recon3D USB for a long time, it was the most capable PC + Console device, but no optical output to upgrade it beyond connecting a nicer amp. Now, the Recon3D has basically jumped in price. Turtle Beach has/nearly has released a new device in the entry-level class, but I don't know anything about it. It's frustrating because the DAC in the Omni and Z soundcard's are clearly an upgrade, but things that nice aren't console-available... until the X7. The X7 is basically comparable to a nicely equipped home theater receiver (minus the FM receiver... But adding SBX and quite a good headphone amp, dual-bluetooth, and a smaller footprint), but on the PC side it can offload audio-processing burden when connected by USB and you can use computer or smartdevice to tweak settings remotely. Receiver displays suck. Really suck. Even the ones with TV overlays aren't going to be as easy to control as a touchscreen, and using a stick remote and the tiny displays at the front of a receiver is "confusing" to be polite.

Btw, the X7 comes with a power supply, it's just that an upgraded PS is also available. Receivers/integrated amps also have built-in power supplies.


----------



## rudyae86

Hey, so a pci express sound blaster z will reduce performance from the cpu?

I thought it would also reduce CPU burden when doing audios processing.


----------



## MrEleventy

rudyae86 said:


> Hey, so a pci express sound blaster z will reduce performance from the cpu?
> 
> I thought it would also reduce CPU burden when doing audios processing.


I would honestly keep that to yourself and quietly edit it out of your history. Mods frown upon it here and doesn't seem to matter where you've sold it to. Just a FYI.


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## rudyae86

mreleventy said:


> I would honestly keep that to yourself and quietly edit it out of your history. Mods frown upon it here and doesn't seem to matter where you've sold it to. Just a FYI.




Oh didnt know that, thanks for the heads up


----------



## Evshrug

mreleventy said:


> I would honestly keep that to yourself and quietly edit it out of your history. Mods frown upon it here and doesn't seem to matter where you've sold it to. Just a FYI.




Exxxxactly. He's going to have to do a lot of post editing from at least a month's worth of posts gloating about his deal and setting price expectations... I wasn't going to flag him, but I was trying not to make it my business.


----------



## rudyae86

Yeah, my bad. Didnt know these forums were sensitive to that particular type of post. Yeah, I gloated about the price a little too much. Again sorry...but letting me know about it before hand, could have saved me a bit of trouble. At least, one member actually had the courtesy to tell me.


----------



## Compact

Hey people. I'm new here. I need you to help me out. I've recently installed modded realtek drivers for my ALC889 codec that unblocks X-Fi MB2 suite. I wanted to utilise EQ and CMSS-3d through SPDIF with my MBOX 2 so I could combine sound quality of MBOX 2 with features of my onboard. However, for some reason, it doesn't work. I can use Dolby home theatre v4 equalizer and other features without a problem, but for some reason X-Fi MB2 won't work through SPDIF, even its equalizer. It does work when I plug in my headphones to 3.5mm jack on my onboard though so it's not like this software isn't working at all. Is there anyone here who tried a similiar thing and got it to work or knows how to fix my problem? All I want to work is CMSS-3d. Sorry for my english.


----------



## GoldenboyXD

compact said:


> Hey people. I'm new here. I need you to help me out. I've recently installed modded realtek drivers for my ALC889 codec that unblocks X-Fi MB2 suite. I wanted to utilise EQ and CMSS-3d through optical with my MBOX 2 so I could combine sound quality of MBOX 2 with features of my onboard. However, for some reason, it doesn't work. I can use Dolby home theatre v4 equalizer and other features without a problem, but for some reason X-Fi MB2 won't work through optical, even its equalizer. It does work when I plug in my headphones to 3.5mm jack on my onboard though so it's not like this software isn't working at all. Is there anyone here who tried a similiar thing and got it to work or knows how to fix my problem? All I want to work is CMSS-3d. Sorry for my english.


 
 Have you tried the "What U hear" features in both creative console panel mixer or choosing the SPDIF out as default in sound device? If something is not working, I'm guessing the installation files was not fully installed?


----------



## Compact

goldenboyxd said:


> Have you tried the "What U hear" features in both creative console panel mixer or choosing the SPDIF out as default in sound device? If something is not working, I'm guessing the installation files was not fully installed?


 
 Sadly, creatives "What U hear" feature is not present on X-Fi MB2 suite, I only have realteks stereo mix which isn't working and never did. I did setup SPDIF as a default output device and I can use X-Fis program mixer to change volume, but that's about it.  Dolby home theatre works without any problem. X-Fi MB2 only works correctly when I plug in my headphones to motherboard, so it's not that the program is broken, it just does not want to work through my SPDIF for some reason.


----------



## rudyae86

Question....
  
 Does adding a PCIe x1 sound card along a GFX card and a wifi card, reduce some system performance?
  
 I actually found out and I may be wrong, that usually when you add another card, the x16 slot where the gfx card is at, turns to x8, in order for the other PCIe lanes to be shared.
  
 Just wondering....since theres test that say it doesnt really reduce performance by much when being on x16 or x8 or if its PCIe 3.0 or 2.0.
  
 Performance hit may be much as up to 2fps Max....which to me is no big deal.
  
 I dont know, but i want all my 16 pcie lanes for my gfx only lol even if it means to get those 2 fps lol. Should have gone usb wifi adapter.
  
 But the main reason i ask is because now i dont know if i should jump to buy the creative labs Z card
  
 anyone have some experience with this kind of situation, with running just 1 gfx card?


----------



## Evshrug

Hard to say.
I have the GTX 660, and I usually get 60 frames per second regardless, even when I had the sandblaster Z. I had heard that when you try to SLI or crossfire your graphics cards, each graphics cards get eight times speed, but I haven't heard anything about performance hits when you add a sound card. I don't know for sure, all I can say is I did not notice a difference at all.


----------



## rudyae86

evshrug said:


> Hard to say.
> I have the GTX 660, and I usually get 60 frames per second regardless, even when I had the sandblaster Z. I had heard that when you try to SLI or crossfire your graphics cards, each graphics cards get eight times speed, but I haven't heard anything about performance hits when you add a sound card. I don't know for sure, all I can say is I did not notice a difference at all.


 
 http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Impact-of-PCI-E-Speed-on-Gaming-Performance-518/
  
 in comparison to pcie 3.0 and 2.0 with x8 and x16, seems like currently video cards dont really lose any performance... 1.5fps at the most...
  
 I guess i can go with creative sound blaster z.....
  
 or am i just better of with the recon3d usb?
  
 I mean, down the road, I want to get a great DAC along with a Tube amp and just have it chained to the optical out of Z card......like maybe next year? lol
  
 or just wait for a price drop on the x7 next year..


----------



## rudyae86

http://camelcamelcamel.com/Blaster-Performance-Headphone-Forming-Microphone/product/B009ISU33E
  
 expect the price drop soon
  
 9 more days or 10, but im sure its going to happen again.
  
 I guess that taking the 1.5fps is worth it for better sound quality. I guess I will buy the Z card and just use that until the x7 drops within the 300 dollar range for me to buy it....unless something else comes out thats better....


----------



## Evshrug

http://camelcamelcamel.com/Creative-Performance-Headphone-Integrated-Microphone/product/B00EZT7RE4?context=browse

But why not the Omni, already at $65, the same amp, I think the same DAC chip, external volume knob, all the same input and output options besides optical (stereo) input?


----------



## SpiderNhan

I got my SBZ refurbished for $59. Had it for over a month now and it works great.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Creative-Sound-Blaster-Z-SBX-PCIE-Gaming-Sound-Card-with-Beamforming-Mic-SB1500-/171367607307?pt=US_Sound_Cards_Internal_&hash=item27e64e2c0b


----------



## PurpleAngel

rudyae86 said:


> Question....
> Does adding a PCI-E x1 sound card along a GFX card and a wi-fi card, reduce some system performance?
> I actually found out and I may be wrong, that usually when you add another card, the x16 slot where the gfx card is at, turns to x8, in order for the other PCI-E lanes to be shared.
> Just wondering....since there's test that say it doesn't really reduce performance by much when being on x16 or x8 or if its PCI-E 3.0 or 2.0.
> ...


 
  
 Why not just put the SB-Z in a PCI-E X1 slot?
 I would assume a PCI-E X1 slot would not share a serial bus with a PCI-E 16X slot.


----------



## rudyae86

purpleangel said:


> Why not just put the SB-Z in a PCI-E X1 slot?
> I would assume a PCI-E X1 slot would not share a serial bus with a PCI-E 16X slot.


 
 well i was told that any pcie that is used either x1 or x4 or x8 or x16 it will use pcie lanes. So if my video card is in the x16 slot and my wifi card in the x1 slot....video card automatically switches from x16 to x8...and so the 8 other pcie lanes are available for either another pcie x1 card (sound card in this case) and the other 6 lanes for a x4 card or even a graphics card like AMD etc.
  
 but reading how pcie 3.0 and 2.0 dont differ much in performance...probably just 1.5fps. It doesnt matter anymore lol
  
  


evshrug said:


> http://camelcamelcamel.com/Creative-Performance-Headphone-Integrated-Microphone/product/B00EZT7RE4?context=browse
> 
> But why not the Omni, already at $65, the same amp, I think the same DAC chip, external volume knob, all the same input and output options besides optical (stereo) input?


 
 yeah i was thinking about that but i dont think the omni has an optical out in which, later on, when i get my akg k712 and x2, i can chain the Z card with a better DAC and a Good tube amp while still retaining the SBX surround sound feature for games. I mean, it wont be exclusive for games but for music as well.


----------



## MrEleventy

rudyae86 said:


> yeah i was thinking about that but i dont think the omni has an optical out in which, later on, when i get my akg k712 and x2, i can chain the Z card with a better DAC and a Good tube amp while still retaining the SBX surround sound feature for games. I mean, it wont be exclusive for games but for music as well.


Omni USB has a opt out.


----------



## rudyae86

mreleventy said:


> Omni USB has a opt out.


 
 lol wow, i dont eve know why I thought it only had an optical in or...I dont know lol
  
 Good to know. But what would be the major difference between the Z card and the Omni USB?
 I use only windows 7 and in terms of them both having the same DAC, how are we sure that they do share the same DAC?
  
 Also. Wouldnt a PCIe x1 be a better interface for audio compared to USB? or is the USB cleaner?
  
 and also, would you say the Omni be more convenient compared to a Z card? It does have a volume knob which is cool, so as to not using the keyboard to raise or lower the volume.
  
 Its kind of hard to choose, since for some reason, the Z card just looks more beefed up compared to the Omni. Even though on paper they carry the same specs. Something must be better in the Z card that the Omni doesnt have. But that would have to be diggin really dip into the subject.
  
 Edit:
 So i went to the creative labs website, tried to talk to a customer service rep. Asked them about if they knew if both had the same DAC...they dont know. I was like huh?
  
 But from what specs show on their website, when using their compare feature, Sound Blaster Z is better than omni in some aspects but everything else is the same. SNR is 100db for omni and 116db for Z. For Max playback quality the omni does 24 bit/ 96khz and the Z doesn 24 bit/ 192khz in stereo direct mode and 24 bit/ 96hz in surround. Z has dts connect and omni doesnt. Z has optical in and Omni doesnt....
  
 So i guess if the price drops this BF to what it was last year, I would say its a better buy if you only use it for your pc only/ windows.
  
 Omni may be more favorable if you use Mac/Windows and carry a laptop with you as well. Both have the same functions but it seems the Z has better internals, unless someone can find that info. We already know that the ZxR has better internals anyways but i dont think we know how much the internal differ from the Z and Omni.
  
 but for now, guess I will go with the Z, especially that I currently found out that my GFX card going into PCIe 3.0 x8 wont really get affected performance wise. Im sure that once GFX cards become more powerful and start using more bandwidth, PCIe lanes will matter...but by then, All the good stuff that current x99 platform has right now, will make its way to the mainstream platform down the road.
  
 Or we can all just go enthusiast and get ourselfs a  5960k six core unlocked with more PCIe lanes, ddr4, compared to the mainstream quadcore with 16 pcie lanes and ddr3.
  
 I wonder if sound cards will ever utilize more than just x1 pcie slots down the road? probably not anytime soon or ever?


----------



## Evshrug

I literally had my Omni connected to a BiFrost Uber and a tube amp (some people prefer Solid State amps, I just like my tube but I haven't heard SS amps at this price braket), and it sounded great. I also had the Z before the Omni, actually had both for a short while and compared them as quickly as was feasible, and returned the Z because the Omni was more flexible/practical and the sound was too close to call.


----------



## rudyae86

evshrug said:


> I literally had my Omni connected to a BiFrost Uber and a tube amp (some people prefer Solid State amps, I just like my tube but I haven't heard SS amps at this price braket), and it sounded great. I also had the Z before the Omni, actually had both for a short while and compared them as quickly as was feasible, and returned the Z because the Omni was more flexible/practical and the sound was too close to call.


 
 how much flexible/practical would it be?
  
 also, are there any delays with game/audio sync while using the Omni? Just wondering.


----------



## MrEleventy

rudyae86 said:


> how much flexible/practical would it be?
> 
> also, are there any delays with game/audio sync while using the Omni? Just wondering.


Just think about it this way. If usb isn't a viable form of decoding.... there would be no usb dacs. Food for thought. And flexibility is up to the user. If you don't need the volume knob and portability, flexibility would be zilch. 

I myself have an older model, SB X-Fi Surround 5.1 (Non-pro) USB. It's flexibility for me is zilch, I use the optical output to a NFB 12. But it's my only option as I game on a laptop and can't replace the card.


----------



## Silver Trucking

So I built a new rig for gaming. I used the gigabyte g1 z97 WiFi motherboard which comes with the core3d chip on board and an amp good enough to drive my new mad dogs (I was actually surprised by this). I do miss out on having an external volume control.

I am having a hard time find specs on this setup to compare for potential upgrade. Does anyone have direct experience with this setup and an omni/Zx or equivalent? 
From what I can tell I'm not losing out on any of the SBX features, am I correct?


----------



## genclaymore

I haven't used the motherboard but a friend of mine did and he enjoyed it alot with his Ultrasone HFI-700 Headphones as well the A900X I had gave him, it should be very similar to omni/Z.  Since it pretty much a Sound blaster Z fused with a motherboard. The one thing that edge it out is the fact you can swap op-amps, to change the sound signature of the Front and Headphone out sound. Where you can't do that on the omni or the Z without physically removing the chips and sodding them on the cards.


----------



## Silver Trucking

genclaymore said:


> I haven't used the motherboard but a friend of mine did and he enjoyed it alot with his Ultrasone HFI-700 Headphones as well the A900X I had gave him, it should be very similar to omni/Z.  Since it pretty much a Sound blaster Z fused with a motherboard. The one thing that edge it out is the fact you can swap op-amps, to change the sound signature of the Front and Headphone out sound. Where you can't do that on the omni or the Z without physically removing the chips and sodding them on the cards.




This pretty much echoes my thoughts, I just have no proof.
Also note that the front out isn't amped, only the rear.


Edit: and I find answers to some of my questions back on pg 203 or so. I just hadn't made it that far yet.
Patience young padewan, patience.


----------



## genclaymore

silver trucking said:


> This pretty much echoes my thoughts, I just have no proof.
> Also note that the front out isn't amped, only the rear.


 

 When I mention Front, I was talking about the Speakers output and not the front of the case. As the Front L&R Speaker output and the Headphone out uses the op-amp thats swappable, while the other channels do not.  I guess I worded it wrong.


----------



## Silver Trucking

genclaymore said:


> When I mention Front, I was talking about the Speakers output and not the front of the case. As the Front L&R Speaker output and the Headphone out uses the op-amp thats swappable, while the other channels do not.  I guess I worded it wrong.



Or I read it wrong, no big deal.
And as I mentioned I usually find the answers I'm looking for in these mature threads I just have to dig all the way through them before asking questions, which I didn't do here . A prime example is the Mad Dogs review thread, chock full of useful stuff, but it is over 400 pages long, had been locked and now has a second one over 200. It's taking a while...


----------



## ShadowSkulkerer

rudyae86 said:


> lol wow, i dont eve know why I thought it only had an optical in or...I dont know lol
> 
> Good to know. But what would be the major difference between the Z card and the Omni USB?
> I use only windows 7 and in terms of them both having the same DAC, how are we sure that they do share the same DAC?
> ...




I just talked to Gigabyte tech support about their h97 ATX board and confirmed that the pci e x16 and pci e x1 lanes do NOT share bandwidth. Hope this helps...

...My first contribution.


----------



## rudyae86

shadowskulkerer said:


> I just talked to Gigabyte tech support about their h97 ATX board and confirmed that the pci e x16 and pci e x1 lanes do NOT share bandwidth. Hope this helps...
> 
> ...My first contribution.


 
 Sweet! I should have called Gigabyte support lol 
  
 I have a Gigabyte Z97 UD3H.
  
 So i guess I can keep that 1 fps difference after all lol
  
 thanks for the info


----------



## LB Felipe

Does SB X7 control the volume by its knob when the sound is going to RCA? The same when it is to speakers amp out?

Since I guess the knob controls the volume of sound that is going to head phones. Is it right?


----------



## Evshrug

I'd assume the volume dial controls headphone and the passive speaker taps, but I haven't seen mention that the RCA connectors are variable output, but the volume may still be controlled at the digital stage by the volume dial.

I don't know for sure and consumers won't either till the X7 is actually released, but I'd assume that you can control volume one way or another.


----------



## LB Felipe

Thamks.
  
 Hopefully.
  
 I wish all is analog for everything (passive soeakers, variable RCA and headphones).
  
 That'd save me 50 bucks in things like Emotiva Control Freak or Schiit Sys.


----------



## NameStlr

Hey everyone,
  
 Please could someone help me understand this quickly:
  
 Could i get the AKG 7XX and the O2 amp, and would that drive the headphones enough  with a normal realtech motherboard sound card?


----------



## rudyae86

namestlr said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> Please could someone help me understand this quickly:
> 
> Could i get the AKG 7XX and the O2 amp, and would that drive the headphones enough  with a normal realtech motherboard sound card?


 
 I want to say yes but you are going to get alot of hissing since usually motherboards dont have an EMI shield.Its not fun hearing all that hissing amplified


----------



## NameStlr

So what would you recommed i get for the 7XX
  
 Thanks for replying


----------



## rudyae86

SOUND BLASTER Z AND SOUND BLASTER OMNI ARE NOW IN BLACK FRIDAY MODE
  
 SOUND BLASTER Z IS $65
  
 AND
  
 SOUND BLASTER OMNI IS $50
  
 not including tax since people live in different states.
  
 This is currently how Creative website has the listed.
  
 I personally will just order from amazon.com and if they lower the price from here till cyber monday, you can always get a price match within a week.
  
 Sound Blaster Z
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009ISU33E/
  
 Sound Blaster Omni
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EZT7RE4/


----------



## ShadowSkulkerer

Even at this late hour if anyone here happens to be military or dependents, you may find it worth your while to check your aafes exchange electronics section for a soundblaster ZxR. I strolled in around noon when I figured it was safe and everything would be swiped. I wasn't there for any black Friday stuff. But low and behold, a couple of them were just chilling on the shelf for $150 no tax. I guess not many people go in thrre for computer components because their selection is mediocre. But they do happen to carry some popular sound and video cards. Schiit just got real.
ReplyQuote


----------



## MC LeBron 23

So what are the other differences between the SB X7 and the Astro mixamp besides the X7 having more power to drive high impedance headphones???:Is there any reason to buy the X7 if I'm using easy to drive headphones like ad700s???

My setup right now when using hard to drive headphones when gaming is the Fiio e12 hooked up to an astro mixamp. How would that compare to an x7?


----------



## rudyae86

The x7 is pretty much the creative Sound Blaster Zxr but in a larger package and is USB. The added bonus is that you can attach passive speakers. Other than that, Astro mix amp just loses here in terms of sound quality and options, and internal hardware.

If you were to get the x7, you wouldnt need the e12 anymore to drive harder to drive headphones since the x7 has a 600ohm amp and a very good quality amp at that. E12 doesnt preocess dolby headphone or SBX for your headphones, its just an amp. Ad700 dont really need amping from what i know reading and if amped, you probabky wont notice much of a difference, maybe a more cleaner audio since you are using something that has better hardware.

The x7 seems to be the the first to offer such quality, for 400 of course lol.


----------



## genclaymore

Well to offer creative functions with all of those other stuff for 400, tho I think it little too much and i feel it should be 250 atleast, But thats me. Maybe remove the speaker amp for the wired bookself speakers maybe that would bring the price down alot, as most people prolly will be using stereo receivers if they using passive speakers. As powered speakers would work just fine with the RCA out. I would had thought creative would do some kind of discreet design or even use micro tubes instead of op-amps at that price.
  
 Tho its not like one can get something cheap like a used Z/x-fi and use optical and send all of that features into a external dac like a modni optical or a dac/amp like a NFB15 or Modni optical+magni/vali and do it that way. But it is a start, maybe creative will start doing it other price points as well asus which could maybe get game devs to start doing higher quailty sounds and music scores in their games.


----------



## clientsiman

Hello, I am gonna of build a new PC and buying my first headphones too! Will the Soundblaster Z be enough to power a AKG 712 or would I also need a DAC and a headphone amp? ( I was thing of buying a schiit stack).
 Currently I have DAC headphone amp combo SMSL SAD-25. Thanks for the great thread!


----------



## Fegefeuer

The Mixamp is a toy with bad SQ (yes, I own one), it never sounds good, it was just a bad necessity as real alternatives were rare or extraordinary expensive. Pure sound quality difference between the X7 and the Mixamp is worlds. (based on the ZxR I use vs. Mixamp)


----------



## RRod

Can the X7 turn on/off DH or other virtual surround processing via hardware like the Mixamp, or does it require software? I ask because they don't hint at any Linux support.


----------



## Fegefeuer

There's a iOS/Android X7 app Creative released recently for the case you can't access the standard software via PC/Notebook etc.


----------



## RRod

fegefeuer said:


> Apparently via iOS/Android App


 
  
 L'sigh. Oh well, Mixamp it is then.


----------



## stv014

I could not find information on Linux support for the SB X7, but even if it works, it is not unlikely to be limited to simple USB DAC functionality. Especially if the 3D audio is actually implemented in software on Windows (like it seems to be in the case of ASUS/C-Media hardware), or if there is a general purpose audio DSP chip in the device (similarly to the emu10k1 on the Sound Blaster Live and other older cards), but it requires proprietary firmware for the headphone surround effects.


----------



## RRod

stv014 said:


> I could not find information on Linux support for the SB X7, but even if it works, it is not unlikely to be limited to simple USB DAC functionality. Especially if the 3D audio is actually implemented in software on Windows (like it seems to be in the case of ASUS/C-Media hardware), or if there is a general purpose audio DSP chip in the device (similarly to the emu10k1 on the Sound Blaster Live and other older cards), but it requires proprietary firmware for the headphone surround effects.


 
  
 Yeah that's why I asked, exactly because of ASUS's lack of support for anything other than USB DAC abilities on Linux. Hopefully Steam and SteamOS will start to get Linux on the map for these companies.


----------



## LeroyJones

Hi all,
  
 Newb question. I've read a tremendous amount and I'm still processing it all. I did use the search function.
  
 This question is for Nameless and whomever thinks they have some insight:
 Is it possible to use CSS3D with an Xfi Xtreme Music soundcard and a GAmecom 780 usb headset?
  
 He had instructions for usb on windows but I understood that as intended for when the Creative soundcard is directly outputting to a usb device. In my setup, the I have the soundcard, but my GAmecom 780 is attached to anyone of the usb ports on my tower.

 Thanks in advance.
  
 Leroy Jones


----------



## Decimator

Hey guys,
  
 First, I can't decide between the Philips Fidelio X2 and the AKG K712. The general consensus that I've found is that the K712s has more detail and better sound stage then the X2, but the X2 has better bass and is considered a better all round headphone. My biggest concern is the apparent difference in sound stage and detail. Can anyone who has tried gaming with both of these provide some input on this?
  
 Second, What would be the best amp/dac combo within a $400-$500 budget for either of these headphones? Since I will be using the headphones exclusively for gaming, surround would seem like a given thing to have, but I've read mixed reviews on stereo vs surround, so I'm still on the fence whether it's worth having or not. Some of the options I'm considering are: Schiit magni, modi, or asgrad 2 with the modi(since the modi has optical input to plug into soundcard). Audio GD 11.32, Sound blaster X7, and the CEntrance DACmini(currently on massdrop for $400).
  
 Thanks,
 Alex


----------



## rudyae86

Did you just copy and pasted this from MLEs thread?


----------



## Nijjion

I'm getting the Philips Fidelio X2 really can't decide what to go with for it (Fulla, Modi/magni stack or maybe the o2 combo). Maybe can go for a tube amp if anyone recommends them for the Fidellio's.
  
 Also want surround sound so was thinking Soundblaster card(rather the creative surround solutions to the Dolby Surround as seems a bit echoy).
  
 Sound Blaster Z -> Optical -> Modi -> Magni -> X2
  
 Haven't found much info on people using the Modi/Magni with the X2 or even the X1 not sure how it fairs really (if needed).
  
 I want a good experience with surround and a good quality sound for gaming, movies and music. So why I've done the dac/amp stack with the surround from a graphics card. South Card has a optical out so can bypass the soundcard when needed.
  
 I'm not exactly sure how it's done but below is what I read somewhere and would like to re-create it if possible. Also wondering if can do this with a creative product rather than the Asus the guy mentions.
  


> If you get the optical version of the Modi, you can pass the DSP settings (including dolby headphone) to the Modi. That way, you leave digital the processing up to the DAC, but allow the Asus card/software to apply the effects.
> 
> Result is improved sound quality and surround effect. You would need to turn off all DSP settings for playing music though.


----------



## rudyae86

If you are getting the sound blaster z and alao getting a magni/modi....just get the sound blaster z. Ive been told that the Z card sounds equal to the modi/magni combo....so you really are just sidegrading more than upgrading the sound. Plus X2 dont really nees to be amped, the Z card already has 600ohm amp and the 30ohm X2 can even be driven by an iphone.


----------



## MrEleventy

rudyae86 said:


> If you are getting the sound blaster z and alao getting a magni/modi....just get the sound blaster z. Ive been told that the Z card sounds equal to the modi/magni combo....so you really are just sidegrading more than upgrading the sound. Plus X2 dont really nees to be amped, the Z card already has 600ohm amp and the 30ohm X2 can even be driven by an iphone.


Maybe he wants the modi/magni for music? 

But yeah. I agree on just getting the SBZ first and that the X2 doesn't require amping. If you don't like the SBZ dac, then get the MM Stack. Or even the Fulla just for music output


----------



## Nijjion

Yeah it's mainly just for the better DAC as people say they do see an improvement normally compared to the soundcards out there for sound with music. Probably won't notice much for gaming with that over the top setup really with the X2.
  
 The Fulla is nice and cheap for my liking so could get that with the soundcard for music but then can't connect that up to the soundcard... then again you said there won't be a difference as the soundcard already has an amp. 
  
 To my knowledge I can't do DAC -> Headphone.


----------



## RRod

nijjion said:


> Yeah it's mainly just for the better DAC as people say they do see an improvement normally compared to the soundcards out there for sound with music. Probably won't notice much for gaming with that over the top setup really with the X2.
> 
> The Fulla is nice and cheap for my liking so could get that with the soundcard for music but then can't connect that up to the soundcard... then again you said there won't be a difference as the soundcard already has an amp.
> 
> To my knowledge I can't do DAC -> Headphone.


 
  
 The DAC is the last thing you should worry about, as it has the least variation of quality in the chain these days.


----------



## Decimator

rudyae86 said:


> Did you just copy and pasted this from MLEs thread?


No, but its almost the same question. I was hoping to get others perspectives, but I'm sure a lot of the same people are reading this thread too.


----------



## Spartoi

Hi, in a few days I will have a Fidelio X2, Mixamp Pro (2013), and Fiio E10K. That setup was originally for my PS4 but I also want surround headphones for my PC. So, which sound card should I get that can output VSS? Also, can the soundcard and E10K be used together or must they work separately?


----------



## genclaymore

You will have to use "What u hear" feature on sound cards like Asus Xonar DG, or Sound blaster Z if you wish to send there VVS over to your Fiio E10. Which you would select its usb input in the drop down menu in"What u hear" which is located in the record tab in windows. Then select the check box to hear sound from the device.


----------



## rudyae86

I mean, if you want to get the Schiit combo, go for it. You can still have the DAC and if you ever wanted to use a tube amp, it will let you do that since the DAC is optical, well the Modi is which Im speaking for. Id probably do that down the road though when I buy a headphone that requires that type of set up. For npw, the sound blaster z is enoigh for me. Even music sounds good throigh the Z.


----------



## Spartoi

genclaymore said:


> You will have to use "What u hear" feature on sound cards like Asus Xonar DG, or Sound blaster Z if you wish to send there VVS over to your Fiio E10. Which you would select its usb input in the drop down menu in"What u hear" which is located in the record tab in windows. Then select the check box to hear sound from the device.


 
 What soundcard would you recommend that can do VSS?


----------



## rudyae86

Creative sound blaster z with SBX or if ur on a budget, asus dx with dolby headphone

Both do VSS


----------



## genclaymore

spartoi said:


> What soundcard would you recommend that can do VSS?


 

 The cheapest one you can find, Usually the Asus Xonar DG or the PCi-E verison the DGX that tends to be cheap. You should be able to find it cheap on amazon or ebay.


----------



## Spartoi

I'm thinking of getting the Sound Blaster Z but is this a better sound card? It does 7.1 vs 5.1 on the Z.


----------



## genclaymore

The sound blaster Z is a better card then Audigy RX. But if you need 7.1 then the RX would be a ok choice but there are other cards for that option if you need 7.1. But if all your gonna use is 5.1 then the Z is the best choice.


----------



## Spartoi

Well the soundcard is suppose to output 7.1/5.1 to my headphones right? So 7.1 should be better? Or is the 5.1 sound quality on the Z than the 7.1 on the RX? I'm only using stereo speakers btw.


----------



## rudyae86

spartoi said:


> Well the soundcard is suppose to output 7.1/5.1 to my headphones right? So 7.1 should be better? Or is the 5.1 sound quality on the Z than the 7.1 on the RX? I'm only using stereo speakers btw.


 
 Honestly, Im not quite sure but that sound card outputs 7.1 to speakers only, not headphone VSS. I think this card is meant more for an HTCP build in which you are always watching movies.
  
 I need to check up on that. But SBX software is the better choice to whatever the RX uses. Also uses a different processor compared to the Sound Blaster Z.
  
 Plus 7.1 isnt always better, especially if the hardware isnt on par. Sometimes its good, sometimes its bad. In VSS, the difference might be minimal to almost sounding the same. i have both the recon3d usb and the sound blaster z. Recon3d is 7.1 and Z is 5.1. I rather take the 5.1 over the 7.1 any day, especially since the hardware in the Z is much better. Comparing them, the Recon3d sounds a bit dull compared to the Z sounding more livelier. Theres more comparisons but I would need to be more detailed and obviously, not everyone is the same and maybe prefers a different sound or hears different.
  
 In terms of VSS, Sound blaster Z just sounds more clear to me while the recon3d, though simulates 7.1, sometimes sounds a bit more congested, as in, feels like the speakers are close or nearby, meaning soundstage feels a bit reduced.....but thats maybe because lately I have been using my PC 350 SE, which are closed back and the Phillips SHP9500, though open back, dont have a very wide soundstage. When I had the X1, the soundstage sounded alot wider if i recall and the MA900 sounds a bit wider as well but made them sound dull as well. Might be the way I set it up or the game i was playing.
  
 But I would suggest you go with the sound blaster Z. Im quite happy with it, even for it being 5.1.....I dont think you would really notice the difference, especially since the X1 has real good bass and might make you forget about the 7.1 lol


----------



## cdsa35000

rudyae86 said:


> ....Comparing them, the *Recon3d sounds a bit dull compared to the Z sounding more livelier*. Theres more comparisons but I would need to be more detailed and obviously, not everyone is the same and maybe prefers a different sound or hears different....



Did you use a headamp with them or directly to headphone, thats because the weak Recon3d output is only good as LINE OUT or earbuds. When using a (power hungering) headphone the Recon3d amp will be overdrived, goes clipping and distorted with great downhill of the frequency response.
Using as LINE OUT you'll hear this normal FR:

When the output is overloaded, become more worse than this:

http://www.centerpointaudio.com/HowToUnderstandFlatFrequencyResponseGraph.aspx
Hence you cant hear any higher freq. and lower freq. thus missing the details of fine, tiny, ambience timbres and low end bass sounds.
What remains heard are the dull monolike, harsh sounding because of the clipping and distorted mids.


----------



## rudyae86

I primarily used it without an amp.

Hmmm I knew the recon3d has a weak amp but didnt know it was that weak. And yes, I would hear clipping at times as well. I then bought a fiio e11 and double amped but even then, it only changed a bit, it got better but not by much. Maybe if i used a more powerful amp, things would be different?


----------



## cdsa35000

^uhum, no wonder thats practicaly almost the same battery toy amp as in recon3d.
You'll need a real headamp with own linepower.
Something like this, than you can hear the differences: 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N11-Hi-Fi-Class-A-Hybrid-Tube-Stereo-Headphone-Amplifier-Amp-w-Power-DC24V-/221521016330?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3393ae760a
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC24V-6N11-Hybrid-Tube-Stereo-Headphone-Amplifier-Amp-w-Power/141314704669?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27538%26meid%3D84fdbfba46b64ad98124f4c13d543e7f%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11353%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D221521016330&rt=nc





Review
http://vr2xmq-stevesblog.blogspot.nl/2009/03/indeed-6n11-tube-class-headphone.html
[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpva93UdK58[/VIDEO]
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=6n11+headphone+amp
[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOBOIJbGrQI[/VIDEO]


----------



## rudyae86

Lol i have this amp on my amazon wishlist. Im thinking of buying it, jist to get into tube amps


----------



## Evshrug

Re: the indeed tube amp

It is a good starting point for a tube hybrid, marginally better than the same-design-different-parts-implementation Bravo amp. Which tube you use can noticeably affect the tone and character of the amp, you might be tempted to spend more on tubes than the amp itself. The Project Sunrise amp is basically the same amp again but the seller wanted to improve again parts quality.

Two things to keep in mind though. These have a lot of volume gain on tap, so most headphones are going to be used close to the minimum volume setting, and IEMs should look elsewhere. Also, there is a little bit of manual testing and electronics adjustment to set it up properly or roll with different tubes, it's not hard but you might want a multimeter to go with your screwdriver to make more precise adjustments. That said, it is a decent intro to tubes and a great barebones platform for modding.


----------



## LeroyJones

leroyjones said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Newb question. I've read a tremendous amount and I'm still processing it all. I did use the search function.
> 
> ...




Buzzabump


----------



## Decimator

Is anyone familiar with the characteristics of the Texas Instruments TPA6120A2 600Ω headphone amplifier used in the Soundblaster X7? What is the output impedance, sound signature(warm, analytical?), etc. I would be pairing the X7 with the fidelio X2, is this a decent quality amp or would I be better off considering other options?


----------



## cdsa35000

^^^Gloogle is ya friend:





> Most Recent Customer Reviews
> Not high end by any means but it gets the ...
> 
> Not high end by any means but it gets the job done. If your higher-ohm headphones aren't load enough coming from your computer, this will fix it.
> Published 5 days ago by Stephen M. Newman



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008Y7S3QY
http://www.amazon.com/SMSL-sApII-TPA6120A2-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B00J2PJQ0O


----------



## Evshrug

^ I'm not saying the amp is high-end, but one amp that uses the same OpAmp chip will sound the same as another. I too researched the chip back when the X7 was announced to have it, there's a fair number of reviews and a couple threads on Head-Fi DIY forums where some guys made their own amps with it and were quite happy with it. See here, even Kevin Gilmore weighs in:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/72796/tpa6120a2-best-headphone-amp-in-the-world/0_30

In my mind, the amp is probably in-line with a Magni or FiiO E9 (the latter which uses the same OpAmp) quality wise, which IMO is pretty adequate.

For a while, I think back before Mad started the gaming headphone with surround thread, I was planning on a bang-for-the-buck system with an OG Playstation as a CD/source/DAC, connected to an E9, and then some moderately high ohm headphone like an HD600 or something. Anyway, I'll try it and tell you guys if it seems crappy or worse than a FiiO E12 or in any way hard to listen to.


----------



## LeroyJones

Newb question. I've read a tremendous amount and I'm still processing it all. I did use the search function.
 
This question is for Nameless and whomever thinks they have some insight:
Is it possible to use CSS3D with an Xfi Xtreme Music soundcard and a GAmecom 780 usb headset?
 
He had instructions for usb on windows but I understood that as intended for when the Creative soundcard is directly outputting to a usb device. In my setup, the I have the soundcard, but my GAmecom 780 is attached to anyone of the usb ports on my tower.

Thanks in advance.
 
Leroy Jones

Buzzabump


----------



## deanorthk

by the end of january I'll have both my portable dac, and my wooaudio 6 SE amp.
 I'll use it for music of course, but also for gaming, as I do use my pc for that a lot
 I have a xonar U7 for that.
 I'm a bit lost on how to output dolby headphone to the 6SE of example... as I guess the analog outputs only stéréo.
 headphones are sein HD650 and grado PS1000.


----------



## genclaymore

The U7 should have a combo line out or another port which is a combo jack connection which you use a 3.5 to toslink adapter for to use optical.


----------



## Spartoi

What would be the best combination:
  
 FiiO E10K 
  
 or 
  
 Sound Blaster Z + External Amp (maybe Schiit Magni)
  
 I'm going to need to buy an external amp for my mixamp pro + PS4 but I'm trying to minimize the cost and just swap out the devices when needed. So, is the DAC in the SBZ any good compared to the E10K or will lack too much in sound quality? This question pertains mostly to music btw.


----------



## SaLX

The Sound Blaster Z on it's own is perfectly good if you have easy to drive headphones. Don't go over the top if you're new to this.


----------



## echopapa

Noob Question:
  
 I just recently purchased the Mayflower O2 + ODAC combo for my PC setup (games/music).  I was previously using a cheapo soundlbaster card, but my microphone was plugged into that.  What do I plug my mic into now?  Just onboard mic input?  My initial thought is that it's going to sound terrible through that.  Am I missing something?


----------



## HaVoC-28

echopapa said:


> Noob Question:
> 
> I just recently purchased the Mayflower O2 + ODAC combo for my PC setup (games/music).  I was previously using a cheapo soundlbaster card, but my microphone was plugged into that.  What do I plug my mic into now?  Just onboard mic input?  My initial thought is that it's going to sound terrible through that.  Am I missing something?


 
  
 Ya use the onboard mic input , if your computer is not too old , and the implementation of onboardchip is ok , it's should be good enough (but be sure to use rear connector) .
  
 At least my onboard mic input don't pick up any inteferences from graphic card at load as my formers Xonar's mic input did .


----------



## clientsiman

I was wondering, will a Mangi 2 Uber + Modi 2 Uber + Sound Blaster Z sound significantly better than a solo Sound Blaster Z for music and games for a AKG 712 and Teac LS-H265 passive speakers?


----------



## outpost31uk

Hey guys. Just a quick question. 

I'm looking to buy the Fidelio X2, to be used for gaming/music/movies. 
To power it I've been thinking of buying the Creative SB Z and the new schiit magni/modi uber. 
Is this over kill and is it possible to output from digital to the schiit dac to keep CMSS?

Cheers, Jimbo.


----------



## rudyae86

Yes to both your questions.

But honestly, with SB Z alone, you are more than good to go if all you plan to use is the X2. Easy to drive headphones that even your phone can drive them nicely.


----------



## Nijjion

rudyae86 said:


> Yes to both your questions.
> 
> But honestly, with SB Z alone, you are more than good to go if all you plan to use is the X2. Easy to drive headphones that even your phone can drive them nicely.


 
 People have done tests with non amped X2's and amped/tube amp and have noticed differences. "mid sound deeper and the bass really come alive"...Though guessing this is all down to personal taste really and might not even be needed.
  
 I'm going to bite the bullet and do the soundcard/dac/amp and if I don't like the difference I will see send it back. Will just lose out on postage I guess.
  
 ----
  
 For others who have done the same and I need some clarification if possible can you look at this setup and will it work correctly? Setup is for Games, Movies and Music
  
 Soundcard* -> Optical -> Modi -> Magni/Vali (can't decide yet) -> Philips Fidelio X2. (Using DSP info from "What U Hear"... Is that correct?)
  
 * = Can't decide yet Soundblast Z or the xonar... (I like SBX pro so probably the creative card)
  
 I got a nice Christmas bonus so money ain't really a thing and would like to spoil myself so might buy both the Magni/vali and try them out and keep the one I like the most.


----------



## MrEleventy

nijjion said:


> People have done tests with non amped X2's and amped/tube amp and have noticed differences. "mid sound deeper and the bass really come alive"...Though guessing this is all down to personal taste really and might not even be needed.
> 
> I'm going to bite the bullet and do the soundcard/dac/amp and if I don't like the difference I will see send it back. Will just lose out on postage I guess.


If you buy from Schiit Directly, there's also a 15% restocking fee. Keep it and resell on the FS Threads here for less of a loss




nijjion said:


> For others who have done the same and I need some clarification if possible can you look at this setup and will it work correctly? Setup is for Games, Movies and Music
> 
> Soundcard* -> Optical -> Modi -> Magni/Vali (can't decide yet) -> Philips Fidelio X2. (Using DSP info from "What U Hear"... Is that correct?)
> 
> ...


You don't need to use "What U Hear". That's for outputting to a USB only device. Since you're going optical, DSP will get converted to PCM and output into the Modi that way.


----------



## Nijjion

mreleventy said:


> You don't need to use "What U Hear". That's for outputting to a USB only device. Since you're going optical, DSP will get converted to PCM and output into the Modi that way.


 
  
 Oh ok, is DPS to PCM automatic? I've been trying to read through info about all of this what other people have done but it's all quite confusing  And not a lot of info I can find about it as well.


----------



## Za Warudo

Does anyone have experience with SoundBlaster Audigy SE?  I bought it because Newegg says it has a S/PDIF output, which I wanted to feed to my D100 Dac after adding CMSS processing.  The D100 takes optical and coaxial inputs, but the card's outputs are all 3.5mm.  Is there a way to connect the digital 3.5mm output on the Audigy to my DAC?  If not, I'm going to return the card and get something else with a coaxial/optical output.  What's the cheapest soundcard that can do this?


----------



## cdsa35000

za warudo said:


> Does anyone have experience with SoundBlaster Audigy SE?  I bought it because Newegg says it has a S/PDIF output, which I wanted to feed to my D100 Dac after adding CMSS processing.  The D100 takes optical and coaxial inputs, but the card's outputs are all 3.5mm.  Is there a way to connect the digital 3.5mm output on the Audigy to my DAC?  If not, I'm going to return the card and get something else with a coaxial/optical output.  What's the cheapest soundcard that can do this?












RTFM? it has 3.5mm COAX S/PDIF:
http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=96220

If you don't have the mono 3.5mm jack to mono RCA cable.
You can use this Left white plug RCA as subsitute:


----------



## Za Warudo

cdsa35000 said:


> RTFM? it has 3.5mm COAX S/PDIF:
> http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=96220
> 
> If you don't have the mono 3.5mm jack to mono RCA cable.
> You can use this Left white plug RCA as subsitute:


 
 Thanks, I connected a coaxial cable to the Audigy using an 3.5mm adapter from my X3.  Now it works great!


----------



## bigbeard

Hi all...i have a lot of questions, and need your opinions and advice.
  
 I currently use my PC and PS4 for gaming, and also use my PC for music/movies.
  
 My current setup is a SoundBlaster Z in my PC which bypasses sound to my Bifrost Uber and Asgard 2. This setup works great when listening to music and movies, using my Beyer Dynamic DT990 Premium. 
  
 However, i find gaming lacking - the sound quality is awesome, but the feeling of immersion through surround sound and positional accuracy is not so great. 
  
 I have been trying to figure out what is the best way to overcome this problem. 
  
 Would it be better to plug my headphones into my sound card instead of my DAC, to obtain positional audio and surround sound (It will be annoying constantly switching, but i can live with it)? 
  
 From your experience, would the sacrifice in sound quality make up for the surround immersion and position effects?
 The SB Z does not have a licence for Dolby, but it does use SBX Pro Studio - is this fairly comparable to Dolby for surround virtualization? 
  
 Now for the PS4...that too is hooked up to my DAC, using the same headphones with it. What is the best way to obtain surround sound on here? Would connecting my PS4 to my sound card via optical, then allowing my sound card to process virtual surround, work (of course, with my headphones plugged into the sound card instead of DAC)? Would my sound card be able to apply virtual surround for my PS4 if the signal is simply coming from an external optical source (PS4), or does that only work if the sound is being produced in the PC environment? The only issue for this is that each time i want to play my PS4, i would also have to have my PC on.
  
 I know they sell things like the Astro MixAmp...that would at least allow me to get virtual sound on my PS4 without needing my PC, but would it be useless for surround on my PC because SB Z has no Dolby licence? I don't believe it will be a problem since the sound will simply output from my PC and the MixAmp will apply the effects. Correct me if i am wrong. What differences would i expect from using my SB Z vs the MixAmp?
  
  
 I want to hear your advice, opinions, and suggestions, on how to improve this situation. 
  
 On a side note, would i obtain a better experience if i watch bluray movies with simulated surround from my sound card, or plain stereo from my DAC?
  
 I just wish that somehow my PC could send the processed virtual effects to my DAC, which would then just send the sound to my ears. It would be the easiest way to solve these problems, without sacrificing sound quality (i really love my DAC).
  
 Thanks all, sorry for the long read, and i really hope some of you can help me.
  
 I will also post this in another thread that deals with PC gaming - don't get mad if you see my post again.


----------



## cdsa35000

You really never test that out by just enabling SBX surround to DAC or just stick the headphone into SBZ directly to hear any differences?
What is your interpretation of immersive virtual surround? The reference should be with real 5.1./7.1 HT speakersetup.
To me SBX sounds the closest to the real speakers with the cons of inherent headphone surround artifacts and lack of real good Front/Back sound positioning.
Its possible that DH's added reverberations gives you the immersion you're looking for.
Go to this thread for comparation video's and info's:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/748785/dolby-home-threater-v4-7-1-vs-sbx-pro-5-1
---
Review/test your setup/configuration/settings again, what sounds best to you is the best config.
1) Set at Windows Sound panel: SBZ speaker config to *5.1 Surround full ranges* and SBZ advanced tab bit/samplerate to *24 bits, 48000 Hz*.
2) Set at SBZ software suite panel: Speakers/Headphones Configuration to *Headphones*.
3) Enable only SBX Pro Studio Surround and adjust the Surround slider to what sounds best, mostly 10%-60% is "best" depending on the 5.1 game/recording SQ.
To much surround processing will make the SQ sounds like from FM radio to AM SQ.
4) Config any in game's audio output to *5.1 speakers*.
---
You can try these setups, if by analog amping directly from SBZ card's outputs can give better, smoother, immersiver "analog" blended sound.
5) Skip the Uber DAC, SBZ optical passing can give digital jitter errors resulting harsher (less immersive) "digital" sound. 
6) Set Asgard2 to High Gain, low is meant for high-sensitive IEM.
7) Connect with a 3.5mm jack -RCA cable from SBZ Headphone or SBZ Line-out 1 (F L/R) to Asgard2.
8) Test/swap between the SBZ headphone/Line-out1 outputs to Asgard2, if the Line-out is passing the SBX hp surround effects too.
Test the Line-ots1 by setting SBX surround enabled to 100% and switch SBZ Speakers/Headphones Configuration between Headphone and 5.1 speakers.
If this Line-out1 has the same effects as the Headphone-out, then use Line-out1 as the proper RCA main output to Asgard2.
---
Virtual Surround headphone sounds "best" only with 5.1/7.1 surround coded game/movie/music.
If you talk about bluray/dvd movies in PC bluray cdplayer or any 5.1 mp4/mkv/avi, then you'll need the PC mediaplayer have the correct DolbyDigital5.1/DTS5.1 software decoder into 5.1 RAW PC audiostream.
AC3filter is able to do that.
Download free mediaplayers and codecs from:
http://www.free-codecs.com/
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/K_Lite_Mega_Codec_Pack.htm
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/AC3_Filter.htm
---
If using ext. standalone blurayplayer or PS4, the only way to get Virtual Surround HP is using mixamp/turtle DSS/recon3D usb with Dobly optical input/decoder or to real surround receivers with dolbyheadphone/silent cinema etc.


----------



## Evshrug

Bigbeard,
Good amount of research so far!

The Z can output stereo PCM to the Bifrost (like I have!) which was already processed into headphone surround from within the Soundcard. There's simply a checkbox to enable that all by itself in one of the sections of the SoundBlaster Z control panel. cdsa35000 said this adds jitter, I thought it still sounded pretty good but I never A/B'd the sound in a more controlled test to narrow down the difference with stereo music between plugging the Bifrost into the Omni or motherboard...

Some people connect their PS4 to their soundcard's input. That only works if the PS4 is outputting stereo (some games like The Last Of Us and Battlefield have their own headphone surround options which can be enabled and baked-in at this point), that doesn't change anything from plugging straight into your DAC, but you could also enable SBX surround from the PC control panel and see if you like it. When SBX is fed stereo, it makes the center image seem more out in front of you instead of eminating from between your ears, but it doesn't really do anything about rear cues and isn't as accurate with directions as when fed a surround signal. YMMV, but you already have the parts so worth a try.

I had a Z and then an Omni hooked up to my PC and outputting processed sound optically to my BiFrost Uber and tube hybrid amp, pretty awesome setup, but I had a cheaper DSS plugged into my PS4 (with a Blue Snowball USB mic) for console duty. The DSS was certainly a great return on investment for how much I paid, but not as proficient as the Bifrost/tube amp combo (or SBX processing, IMO) in my PC setup. The upside, it was pretty easy to transport my PS4 setup between my computer room and bedroom.

Recently I aquired a Soundblaster X7, putting it directly between PC an headphones I didn't notice a significant drop in quality from the Bifrost/tube amp, and I can also wire my PS4's optical cable to the X7 without turning on (or disconnecting) my PC, the quality there was definitely a noticable step up from the DSS. I can also connect a bunch of other things to the X7 with multipoint Bluetooth, RCA input, and an extra USB HOST Mode input for iOS7 and up iOS devices and OTG-compatible android devices. The X7 isn't the only option, but it's made a lot (most) of my other gear redundant and probably heading to the sale yard soon... curiousity demands that eventually I should do a head-to-head of the X7 DAC vs the Bifrost, but only cuz I have both.


----------



## bigbeard

Hey Ev, i also purchased an X7 for my ps4 and i think it is great, especially with the SBX for games.
  
 i use my bifrost uber/Asgard 2 solely for my pc now - no more switching out cables.
  
 i also am now outputting SBX processed sound from my pc into my bifrost/asgard. and i like the effects (for gaming).
 Stereo is still my go-to for music.
  
 The way i get SBX for Pc gaming is that first i switch over to "headphones" in SBZ control panel, then enable SBX studio. Next, i configure windows for 5.1 speakers (on full range). Then for the windows sound icon, i enable the SBX as the default playback device (not SPDIF out, as this won't allow any processing) and then go to recording divcies and enable "what you hear", under which, i enable "listen" and select spdif out as the default in that dropdown box.
  
 This is the only way i could get it to work. does it seem OK to you? i would prefer to have a direct signal passing on DSP to my amp and dac, instead of listening to "what you hear", but could not figure out how to do so. If you have any input, i'd appreciate it.
  
  
 Just as you, I am also impressed with the X7 sound quality. I have not yet made a direct comparison to my PC setup, but i do think the sound is very nice. The virtual surround works great on the PS4.


----------



## NamelessPFG

Well, I just learned some interesting things recently.
  
DirectSound3D may still be intact in Vista onward, but ONLY in software. The problem is that most games don't create 3D buffers at all if they don't detect hardware acceleration.
  
 Along with that, there's another method of restoring audio for DS3D games with modern OSes aside from ALchemy, DS3DGX and 3DSoundBack: IndirectSound. It seems to take the 3D buffers and map them to XAudio2 speakers, so it's not what I'd consider ideal, but it's still another option if ALchemy doesn't pan out for whatever reason.
  
This entire thread is a gold mine, really. So's this wiki page.
  
 Mirh knows his stuff; perhaps I should've had him just write the guide!
  
 Oh well, I suppose this gives me more reason to rewrite the guide outright. I just gotta think about how I want to approach this, because I'm not really satisfied with the current "giant list of resources" format.


----------



## Evshrug

@bigbeard,
That's cool!
Honestly, I put my Bifrost away in a box for now, too tired when I get home from work (like today) to putz around. I may get around to it after tomorrow, I'll finally have off two days in a row for the first time in a long time, Wednesday & Thursday! However, I'll be first troubleshooting my computer, since updating to windows 8.1 from 8 (metro didn't bother me anymore than windows in general) I've been having problems with slow responsiveness and local games getting laggy after an hour of play... Today steam won't even start, so reinstalling that. Clean wipe may be incoming, is there anyway to reinstall Windows on a different drive in my computer?

I was able to get my Omni to output processed audio through Optical without using "Wat U Hear," but it took some doing. And I forgot what I did, I know the firmware update was involved and I think I just checked the "output stereo mix through optical" box, but I forget what I had to set as the default audio playback device in windows. Honestly, NamelessPFG should know 


NamelessPFG,
Setting up a guide is indeed difficult. My console surround devices thread is starting to get more visitors, but they're starting to repeat themselves and their questions as plagues Mad's thread, and I'm starting to get PMs asking me to work for them. Meh.


----------



## rudyae86

For a clean Windows 8.1 install, download the isolation from their website. I'm on the phone right talking to my GF lol but google it and you can get more info about it. Seems like if you update from 8 to 8.1, problems start happening....


----------



## MrEleventy

rudyae86 said:


> For a clean Windows 8.1 install, download the isolation from their website. I'm on the phone right talking to my GF lol but google it and you can get more info about it. Seems like if you update from 8 to 8.1, problems start happening....


You can't just dl a win 8.1 iso and install if you only have a win 8 key. 8.1 iso will reject the win 8 key. There's a way around it tho, where you need to dl the win 8 iso, cancel it and then start dling the win 8.1 iso.

E: Here's a walkthrough


----------



## Evshrug

mreleventy said:


> You can't just dl a win 8.1 iso and install if you only have a win 8 key. 8.1 iso will reject the win 8 key. There's a way around it tho, where you need to dl the win 8 iso, cancel it and then start dling the win 8.1 iso.
> 
> E: Here's a walkthrough




Thanks a ton, I'll keep this as a plan B after contacting Microsoft and seeing what they suggest (bought a retail upgrade for 8 instead of OEM, for possible support situations like this).


----------



## rudyae86

mreleventy said:


> You can't just dl a win 8.1 iso and install if you only have a win 8 key. 8.1 iso will reject the win 8 key. There's a way around it tho, where you need to dl the win 8 iso, cancel it and then start dling the win 8.1 iso.
> 
> E: Here's a walkthrough




Forgot to mention about that. That is why I said to use Google  to look for more info about it, since I was on my phone and talking with the GF....(GF was asking if I was paying attention n or not to what she was saying lol)


----------



## bigbeard

I have a windows 8.1 ISO on my USB stick.


----------



## MrEleventy

I need to start labeling all the different ones that I have. I have a few scattered around that has various version of Windows, linux distros, various boot utils, etc. I had them organized at one point but they've gotten outta hand now...


----------



## rafagoulart

help me choose headphone choose to gaming PC with a SoundBlaster Z
  
 AKG K 240                                  $ 76.71
 AKG K 240 MK II                          $ 121.07
 Sennheiser HD 598                       $ 153.99
 Audio Technica ATH-AD900X         $ 180.46
 AKG Q 701 (white)                        $ 184.95
  
 I would like to have a bit of bass because I plan not buy another headphone for a long time


----------



## ritterbutzke

Hey,
 Has anyone tried the virtual surround of the Sound Blaster X7 using a PS4? How are games and movies compared to stereo?
 Deciding between this and the E5 which is alot cheaper, but if the sbx surround is worth it I would buy it.
 Thanks


----------



## bigbeard

I use the x7 for my ps4, and bought it solely for that purpose. 

I absolutely love it. The games sound great. And virtual surround is awesome. 

You will hear a difference in sound quality instantly...that is until your brain becomes quickly accostomed to the new sound signature. 

Make sure you use linear pcm on the ps4, thos way it sends out uncompressed sound.

Some people complain that the mkc on tje x7 is hard to get to work with (i think there is a workaround), but i use my ps4 camera as my mkc, so no issues there


----------



## ritterbutzke

Hey, but the maximum optical can do for linear pcm is stereo, so are you just using processed stereo or dd 5.1?


----------



## bigbeard

Think of it this way...would you rather have high quality uncompressed audio sent to the x7, and then allow it to deal with virtual surround, or would you rather choose to have muddy sound?

The point of sbx is to convert stereo to virtual surround for a non-surround setup, such as headphones.

So, you will be sending out unprocessed and uncompressed stereo info to the x7, which will then apply virtuall surround to the source.

This will give you the best audio quality. Just make sure the ingame settings are set to 5.1 sound system, since that is what your replicating with vietual surround (it would send the directional info needed)


----------



## RRod

bigbeard said:


> Think of it this way...would you rather have high quality uncompressed audio sent to the x7, and then allow it to deal with virtual surround, or would you rather choose to have muddy sound?
> 
> The point of sbx is to convert stereo to virtual surround for a non-surround setup, such as headphones.
> 
> ...


 
 Virtualizers are meant to take multichannel data and turn it into virtual surround on headphones via HRTFs. With stereo data, they can't reproduce any surround field; they would basically do what a crossfeed would do: make the stereo data sound a bit more forward/out-of-the-head.


----------



## ritterbutzke

Sorry, but that makes no sense. If i just wanted SBX to process PCM stereo, the E5 could do the exact same thing.
 The point of the X7 is that it can decode DD 5.1, giving it way more positional information, which it can then use to create better surround. There is no way PCM-> surround should sound better than DD5.1-> surround.


----------



## Evshrug

bigbeard said:


> Think of it this way...would you rather have high quality uncompressed audio sent to the x7, and then allow it to deal with virtual surround, or would you rather choose to have muddy sound?
> 
> The point of sbx is to convert stereo to virtual surround for a non-surround setup, such as headphones.
> 
> ...




Ah, what?
Options:
1.) You can have the PS4 output stereo LPCM.
This rounds down positional data to just left-right. If you have a game like The Last of Us or Battlefield 4 with built-in headphone surround, then positional data survives the PS4 output because it's already been "baked into" the stereo (TLOU has height processing, but I wasn't as impressed with the sense of soundstage as with SBX). This how I prefer listening to music sources.

2.) You can have the PS4 output stereo, and add SBX processing.
SBX can add "air" and push central sounds out further in front of you, but this isn't as positionally accurate as Dolby bitstreaming because you throw away all the rear positional data. I haven't tried this with SBX, but Dolby ProLogicIIx tried to "guess" when something was supposed to come from behind, and overall the effect was inconsistent and sometimes weird. If you have a game like The Last of Us or Battlefield 4 with built-in headphone surround, then positional data survives the PS4 output because it's already been "baked into" the stereo, but in that case you wouldn't want to use SBX at all (as this would cause more processing than just bitstreaming Dolby). If you're gaming this way, you might as well get the less expensive E5 instead if the X7's other distinguishing features aren't necessary for you.

3.) You can have the PS4 output Dolby, and the SBX processing translates that to virtual headphone surround.
This option actually has less fidelity degradation than adding surround processing to stereo, and having the DSP trying to "guess" what direction things come from. Dolby + Creative's surround processing has been my preferred gaming audio experience for 3+ years (since the 360).


 Bigbeard, I know you're new here, but I challenge you to listen to option 1 and write out how option 3 has aspects of it's sounds worse than option 1. Obviously SBX will have more "distance" in the sound, but point out how compression affects option 3's bass, mids, treble, instrument separation, believable tone realism, "harshness," and other aspects of compression. I think you'll find that the compression is pretty light, or maybe even indistinguishable since games don't feature high-definition audio, and overall you'll get tired of the analysis and come to the conclusion that the only appreciable difference with game audio is how much better the positional imaging is in option 3. If you have a BluRay HD audio disc, WELL PROBABLY you will hear the sound degrade a bit, I don't know I don't have any of those. Or maybe, you'll subjectively disagree, I have met about two or three people a year who doggedly prefer stereo while gaming, and that's personal taste and therefor I can't say your taste is wrong (but maybe bad  ).


----------



## bigbeard

I apologize for giving misguided advice. I based my opinions on what i have learned, albeit mistakingly. My readings from other sites made me come to my previous conclusions. 

Now that i think about it, what i previously said was illogical. I game on pc too, and would never use stereo in windows and games, and then solely rely on my SBZ to simulate surround.

I was under the impression that ljnear pcm undergoing dsp is the best setup. There is a lot misinformation out there, and i appreciate the input.

So, to make it clear to myself, selecting dolby digital in ps4 settings, turn sbx (on the x7), and set in game settings to 5.1 or home theater would give me the best gaming audio?


----------



## Decimator

Hey guys,
  
 I recently bought the schiit magni 2 uber and modi 2 uber and I just got the soundblaster z card yesterday that I plan to hook up to the schiit stack for surround. I'm having some buyer's remorse thinking I should have just bought the X7 instead. Can anyone comment on how the schiit stack/sounblaster z combo compares in quality to the X7? If they're comparable, I'll keep the setup I have but if the X7 is superior then I would return or sell my current setup and get the X7 instead.
  
 Thanks in advance


----------



## rafagoulart

someone uses the K612 with some sound card Sound Blaster series Z (z / zx / zxr)?

I am very interested in buying these two equipment to play on my pc


----------



## clientsiman

decimator said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I recently bought the schiit magni 2 uber and modi 2 uber and I just got the soundblaster z card yesterday that I plan to hook up to the schiit stack for surround. I'm having some buyer's remorse thinking I should have just bought the X7 instead. Can anyone comment on how the schiit stack/sounblaster z combo compares in quality to the X7? If they're comparable, I'll keep the setup I have but if the X7 is superior then I would return or sell my current setup and get the X7 instead.
> 
> Thanks in advance


 
 I would like to know too as I am between the X7 and the schiit stack/sounblaster z combo for my new pc.


----------



## Arkanius

Is SBX pro an upgrade compared to CMSS-3D?
 I still have an old X-Fi Titanium that I'm feeding through line out to my O2 Amplifier (And then to my Headphones)
  
 Is it worth the money to upgrade?


----------



## rafagoulart

someone uses the K612 with some sound card Sound Blaster series Z (z / zx / zxr)?

 I am very interested in buying these two equipment to play on my pc


----------



## Evshrug

clientsiman said:


> I would like to know too as I am between the X7 and the schiit stack/sounblaster z combo for my new pc.



Stillhart had the original Modi and a Sound Blaster Omni, he was surprised that he couldn't make out a DAC difference that wouldn't be placebo they sounded so close. He repeated the testing for a few days with music and games, both the Omni and Modi were connected to a $200 amp (the M-Stage, I think), but still he found them comparable. Now, you'd have to read more Modi 2 Uber reviews, but...

Sound Blaster Z + Modi 2 Uber + Magni 2 Uber = ~$65 + $150 + 150 = $365+ tax and shipping.
X7 = $400, for the extra $35 you get surround processing for consoles/optical input, stereo speaker amp, two headphone outputs (in different sizes, no more plug adapters!), multipoint bluetooth sources, USB host mode for OTG compatible smart devices (really fast to charge my iPhone too!), mobile app to tweak settings LIVE WHILE USING THE DEVICE, and customization/upgrades by replacing the opamps or upgrading the power supply. Oh, and it has a headphone stand, and looks pretty boss.




arkanius said:


> Is SBX pro an upgrade compared to CMSS-3D?
> I still have an old X-Fi Titanium that I'm feeding through line out to my O2 Amplifier (And then to my Headphones)
> 
> Is it worth the money to upgrade?



Some people prefer X-Fi Titanium HD for legacy game support (original thief), but I find CMSS-3D too treble sharp in all the samples I've heard, SBX is more balanced in that regard. SBX alone isn't much of an upgrade if you like CMSS-3D, but I didn't like listening to CMSS-3D at all so SBX was an upgrade for me in the sense of listening comfort. YMMV.


----------



## Evshrug

rafagoulart said:


> someone uses the K612 with some sound card Sound Blaster series Z (z / zx / zxr)?
> 
> 
> I am very interested in buying these two equipment to play on my pc



I had a Z, right now I have an Omni, my K612 plays plenty loud through the Omni with most of the volume space to spare, though I prefer the sound quality through a second amp (tube amp). The SB Z (and Omni) are fine places to start, and you can always add gear later.


----------



## Arkanius

evshrug said:


> @Stillhart had the original Modi and a Sound Blaster Omni, he was surprised that he couldn't make out a DAC difference that wouldn't be placebo they sounded so close. He repeated the testing for a few days with music and games, both the Omni and Modi were connected to a $200 amp (the M-Stage, I think), but still he found them comparable. Now, you'd have to read more Modi 2 Uber reviews, but...
> 
> Sound Blaster Z + Modi 2 Uber + Magni 2 Uber = ~$65 + $150 + 150 = $365+ tax and shipping.
> X7 = $400, for the extra $35 you get surround processing for consoles/optical input, stereo speaker amp, two headphone outputs (in different sizes, no more plug adapters!), multipoint bluetooth sources, USB host mode for OTG compatible smart devices (really fast to charge my iPhone too!), mobile app to tweak settings LIVE WHILE USING THE DEVICE, and customization/upgrades by replacing the opamps or upgrading the power supply. Oh, and it has a headphone stand, and looks pretty boss.
> Some people prefer X-Fi Titanium HD for legacy game support (original thief), but I find CMSS-3D too treble sharp in all the samples I've heard, SBX is more balanced in that regard. SBX alone isn't much of an upgrade if you like CMSS-3D, but I didn't like listening to CMSS-3D at all so SBX was an upgrade for me in the sense of listening comfort. YMMV.


 
  
 SBX doesn't have OpenAL and Eax games support?
 Oh damn 
  
 Oh well, guess I'll stay with the Titanium (It's the Non HD version by the way)


----------



## RRod

arkanius said:


> SBX doesn't have OpenAL and Eax games support?
> Oh damn
> 
> Oh well, guess I'll stay with the Titanium (It's the Non HD version by the way)


 
  
 OpenAL should be doing virtualization by itself and sending the stereo signal to the sound card. Latest OpenAL versions can emulate EAX reverb without the need for a creative card, but I haven't seen support for other features.


----------



## Evshrug

arkanius said:


> SBX doesn't have OpenAL and Eax games support?
> 
> Oh damn
> 
> Oh well, guess I'll stay with the Titanium (It's the Non HD version by the way)



No, all the current cards have EAX 5.0 and OpenAL (and ALchemy) support still, it's just that a handful of games only unlock certain sound features when they detect a particular piece of hardware. Nameless knows about that, I've never run into the issue myself. Mostly because I didn't play many PC games 12 years ago, and most of those games have more debilitating issues with windows 8 anyway.


----------



## Decimator

I hate to be that guy but I really have no idea what I'm doing and I just don't have time to read through all 220 pages. I got my magni 2 and modi 2 hooked up via optical to the optical out port on my soundblaster z card. What do I need to do to get it setup so the the z card sends surround to the modi while still using the modi's dac and the magni's amp?
  
 Thanks


----------



## SpiderNhan

Make sure your Modi is connected to your PC via USB, NOT optical
  
 - Go to "Control Panel"
 - Click on "Sound"
 - Under the "Playback" tab set your Sound Blaster Z as Default Device
  
 - Now go to the "Recording" tab
 - Find "What You Hear" Sound Blaster Z and set it as your Default Device
 - Then click "Properties"
 - Go to the "Listen" tab
 - Check "Listen to this device"
 - Under the "Playback through this device" drop-down menu select your Modi
 - Make sure you have "Continue running when on battery power" selected and hit "OK"
  
 - Go back to "Playback"
 - Right-click on Sound Blaster Z and hit "Configure Speakers"
 - On the next screen there should be a diagram of a 5.1 speaker set up with the option to change to stereo
 - Select 5.1 as your set up and hit "Next"
 - For "Optional Speakers" I usually leave them all checked, but I uncheck "Subwoofer." Hit "Next."
 - I've seen people suggest both unchecking or checking the boxes for Full-ranged speakers. Play around with this however you want. I haven't noticed a difference either way.
 - Hit "OK"
  
  
 Now you have to open your SBX control panel
  
 - Turn SBX "On"
 - Go to "Speakers/Headphones" and make sure the tab at the top is clicked to "Headphones"
 - Now you're set for simulated 5.1 surround through your Modi's DAC. Play with the SBX settings however you want. I prefer to uncheck everything except for "Surround."


----------



## bigbeard

spidernhan said:


> Make sure your Modi is connected to your PC via USB, NOT optical
> 
> - Go to "Control Panel"
> - Click on "Sound"
> ...




There is absolutly no reason that i know of to use a usb and then listen to devices.

I have a bifrost uber and asgard 2 hooked up to my sbz for virtual surround.

This is what i have: wibdows configured to 5.1 (full range)

In sbz panel, enable sbx, and also set the audiobto headphones. Then in the advanced features tab, select "play stereo mix" through digital out (or something like that). Thats all u need to do...you will have optical out from your soundcard connected to to your dac.


----------



## Evshrug

^+1
Yeah, mostly just enable "send stereo mix though optical."

The mix refers to the processed sound.


----------



## Decimator

So in windows, have Speakers (Sound Blaster Z) as the device? I don't see the option to configure windows to 5.1 (full range).
 I have the modi powered by ac adapter to the wall, not by usb from the pc. Not sure if that's a problem, the modi isn't listed as a playback device on windows.


----------



## SpiderNhan

My DAC(Aune T1) doesn't support optical so USB is the method I'm familiar with. "Send stereo mix" sounds much easier.


----------



## bigbeard

decimator said:


> So in windows, have Speakers (Sound Blaster Z) as the device? I don't see the option to configure windows to 5.1 (full range).
> I have the modi powered by ac adapter to the wall, not by usb from the pc. Not sure if that's a problem, the modi isn't listed as a playback device on windows.



 To configure windows for 5.1, you will need to rightclick the windows speaker tray icon and click playback devices. Then click speakers/sbz, and click configure.

Make sure default audio is set to speakers/sbz, and not spdif out, otherwise you wont get any sound card processing.


----------



## Decimator

I think I got it set up right now. Thanks for all the help guys, appreciate it.


----------



## shipus90

a great theard...


----------



## sonmaix

Hello!
  
  
 This is my first post. I really hope I won't break any rules or make someone angry.
  
 I'll be honest. I did not read all the pages. But I think I got an overall idea of the topic. So now I'd like to clear things up for me.
  
 Best possible audio quality can only be achived by wired connection? In my case I am searching for good wireless headphones for movies and gaming on pc, so the only option is to buy soundcard like Sounblaster Z or Xonar DX and wireless headphones like DS6500 or RS170 and connect them with optical cable in order to get best surround sound possible? And all the wireless gaming headsets leave me with only the software emulation of surround sound like Tactic 3D Rage with SBX Studio? And if so, how poor is software based surround sound processing compared to the same SBX Studio on Soundblaster Z card? Right now I have Tactic 3D Rage USB with SBX Studio and I have never compared them to something more serious or expensive.


----------



## Evshrug

A "dedicated soundcard" is software layered on firmware layered on top of hardware, just like everything else computer. The difference is, a CPU is for general compute tasks while a DSP is a processor that only concerns itself with audio, with software that filters digital audio through maths, and then the Soundcard has a digital to analogue converter and an amp. If you have a processor and you're using separate DAC/amp components, well... The maths can stay the same. SBX studio is mostly the same (unless you're using speaker surround), so if the tactic rage3D has an optical out and a Z has an optical out, they out to have identical results. And if your computer has enough horsepower headroom, then the separately available SBX Studio software should also sound identical... Though creative's amp/DAC hardware is a respectable value too. I have their $400 X7 right here, and I'm quite pleased with it's processing, hardware components, and extra touch connectivity and control features.

I don't particularly like wireless because battery life, performance near low battery charge, "locked" into budget DAC/amp components (these DO vary in their sound quality output), etc. Thankfully, much progress has been made in limiting compression before wireless transmission, but I'm still not seeing an advantage to wireless unless you're afraid of tripping hazards. That said, it's not hard to get SBX surround processing to transmit wirelessly if your source is a PC.


----------



## TranceDude

Hello everybody!
  
 I own Creative X-Fi Titanium HD and AKG Q701 headphones. I've always enjoyed good sound positioning in FPS games, but there hasn't been much in years. I really liked BF2's Ultra-high mode and played a mod for it up until a few months ago. Since then I switched to CS:GO and use AlChemy + "snd_legacy_surround 1" for best sound positioning. Unfortunately positioning in CS:GO still isn't that great (there's no way to tell up and down).
  
 I have some questions about sound positioning in games nowadays and future possibilities.
 -Is OpenAL still a viable option for game developers to use?
 -Is OpenAL Software solution anywhere near a viable version for game devs to use?
 -Does OpenAL (Soft) future looks bright at all?
 -What is the state of Rapture3D? I know a few games use it, but is it actually any good, easy to work with etc.?
  
 Or are consoles still dictating this stuff and nothing will be happening for years to come...
  
 Thanks!


----------



## genclaymore

I sure there still some games that come out that uses it, it still viable in linux. Some games still have the option to select openAL but they usually are on Xaudio by default and reg a ini edition to switch, Like Certain Unreal engine games. The only games I know that uses rapture3D is the grid and dirt series of games. But I read you could some how use it with other games but I think with their paid version of the software, but I not sure as I haven't went to their site in a long while.
  
 Main thing to blame is Devs using Xaudio2,Some are still using FmodEX which suppose to be OpenAl or part of it, but it been mostly Xaudio2 or their own house sound engine. I even see miles audio used some time still. It been nice if Xaudio goes away to never return.


----------



## RRod

genclaymore said:


> I sure there still some games that come out that uses it, it still viable in linux. Some games still have the option to select openAL but they usually are on Xaudio by default and reg a ini edition to switch, Like Certain Unreal engine games. The only games I know that uses rapture3D is the grid and dirt series of games. But I read you could some how use it with other games but I think with their paid version of the software, but I not sure as I haven't went to their site in a long while.
> 
> Main thing to blame is Devs using Xaudio2,Some are still using FmodEX which suppose to be OpenAl or part of it, but it been mostly Xaudio2 or their own house sound engine. I even see miles audio used some time still. It been nice if Xaudio goes away to never return.


 
  
 Yes on Linux it's used a good bit. Borderlands, Portal, TF2, etc. all use it, though sometimes you have to tweak the configs to turn off the default audio library (e.g. TF2 defaults to Miles).


----------



## dmbr

TF2 and other Source games use Miles surround, not AL.

Edit: missed that you notes that...what goes in the config?


----------



## RRod

dmbr said:


> TF2 and other Source games use Miles surround, not AL.
> 
> Edit: missed that you notes that...what goes in the config?


 
  
 I followed what was posted here:
 http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/1fzonq/
  

```
[color=rgb(34, 34, 34)]dsp_slow_cpu 1[/color] [color=rgb(34, 34, 34)]dsp_enhance_stereo 0[/color] [color=rgb(34, 34, 34)]snd_pitchquality 1[/color] [color=rgb(34, 34, 34)]snd_spatialize_roundrobin 1[/color]
```
  
 Haven't played in a while so don't know if it's still applicable, but I recall after making these changes OpenAL indeed pops up in the list of loaded libraries.


----------



## dmbr

rrod said:


> I followed what was posted here:
> http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/1fzonq/
> 
> 
> ...


 
 None of those would turn Miles off. I know those commands, I made the most popular config in tf2 B]


----------



## RRod

dmbr said:


> None of those would turn Miles off. I know those commands, I made the most popular config in tf2 B]


 
  
 Well you can explain why OpenAL suddenly shows up in the loaded libraries when that combo is on, then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. And why the HRTF settings suddenly start working from the OpenAL config.


----------



## Evshrug

FWIR, or AFAIK, Borderlands 2 was the latest game to support OpenAL... And that required .ini editing, it wasn't in the standard sound settings. OpenAL is still free and available for game devs to use, but I simply haven't heard of them using it.

When the PS4 was new, there were reports that it's dedicated audio DSP was by AMD, their TrueAudio codec which can process headphone surround including height. It was originally developed for AMD's R***x graphics cards. There was a sample Youtube video of Lichdom playing with TrueAudio enabled (I've posted it in the link in my signature), and the Thief reboot for PC was the first released game to support it (update required). I have the PS4 version, and indeed it did come with a headphone mode, though I barely played the game and don't recall if the surround imaging was particularly good or not. Honestly, TrueAudio could've been the brightest future of headphone surround, but I haven't seen almost any mention of it for awhile except Toms Hardware soundcard's of the month articles on models including the feature. I haven't been looking all that hard for it, let us know if you find any news?


----------



## RRod

evshrug said:


> FWIR, or AFAIK, Borderlands 2 was the latest game to support OpenAL... And that required .ini editing, it wasn't in the standard sound settings. OpenAL is still free and available for game devs to use, but I simply haven't heard of them using it.
> 
> When the PS4 was new, there were reports that it's dedicated audio DSP was by AMD, their TrueAudio codec which can process headphone surround including height. It was originally developed for AMD's R***x graphics cards. There was a sample Youtube video of Lichdom playing with TrueAudio enabled (I've posted it in the link in my signature), and the Thief reboot for PC was the first released game to support it (update required). I have the PS4 version, and indeed it did come with a headphone mode, though I barely played the game and don't recall if the surround imaging was particularly good or not. Honestly, TrueAudio could've been the brightest future of headphone surround, but I haven't seen almost any mention of it for awhile except Toms Hardware soundcard's of the month articles on models including the feature. I haven't been looking all that hard for it, let us know if you find any news?


 
  
 On Linux Steam, Borderlands 2 defaults to OpenAL (at the beginning the first thing I heard once the intro stopped was the robot talking behind me; took me by surprise). I'm sure support will waver on Linux and SteamOS as well, but it would be nice if another standard took its place, especially one that could support some number of HRTF profiles.


----------



## DreamKing

Hi,
  
  
 I'm trying to configure my windows settings to use my Xonar DG as a 7.1 channel Dolby Headphone DSP for my external DAC. I think I did the correct steps. Only thing I left out is the Speakers multi-channel configuration:
  

  

  
  
 And, finally, this is what my Xonar DG settings look like:

  
  
  


 Is this all correct? Or is it the other around for the stereo mix settings and playback settings, from what I read on another forum (still wouldn't make sense though, as Dolby Headphone doesn't work as soon as I set the default playback device to Speaker).  I'm just trying to make sure I'm listening 100% to the dac and just using the Xonar as a DSP only.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## mindbomb

dreamking said:


> Is this all correct? Or is it the other around for the stereo mix settings and playback settings, from what I read on another forum (still wouldn't make sense though, as Dolby Headphone doesn't work as soon as I set the default playback device to Speaker).  I'm just trying to make sure I'm listening 100% to the dac and just using the Xonar as a DSP only.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.


 
 the dac you are using is usb? The spdif passthrough device is a direct path to the optical transmitter, so no processing is being done. If you want the dsp, you have to listen to  Speakers - Asus Xonar DG.


----------



## DreamKing

mindbomb said:


> the dac you are using is usb? The spdif passthrough device is a direct path to the optical transmitter, so no processing is being done. If you want the dsp, you have to listen to  Speakers - Asus Xonar DG.


 
 THe DAC I'm using is SPDIF. How is no processing being done if I hear Dolby Headphone being used? The playback device is set to Speakers - Xonar DG but the Stereo Mix is set to SPDIF passthrough. I thought that was the way to use my external DAC but still being able to use the XOnar DG as a dsp.
  
 If I set the playback device to Speakers and I'm listening to Speakers - Asus XOnar DG as well, there's an echo effect and it's unlistenable. If I do the opposite of what I originally did, I can't use Dolby Headphone at all and can't use the soundcard as a dsp.


----------



## PurpleAngel

dreamking said:


> THe DAC I'm using is SPDIF. How is no processing being done if I hear Dolby Headphone being used? The playback device is set to Speakers - Xonar DG but the Stereo Mix is set to SPDIF passthrough. I thought that was the way to use my external DAC but still being able to use the XOnar DG as a dsp.
> 
> If I set the playback device to Speakers and I'm listening to Speakers - Asus XOnar DG as well, there's an echo effect and it's un-listenable. If I do the opposite of what I originally did, I can't use Dolby Headphone at all and can't use the soundcard as a dsp.


 
  
 Why is the stereo mix enabled or even being used?
 I really know zero about the Stereo mix stuff, but I'm assuming you have no need for it.
  
 Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the Xonar DG?
  
 In the playback tab, you do want the Speaker Xonar DG Audio device set as the default audio device.
 But you do not want to use any pass-though enabled or used, as it would bypass all the Xonar DG's audio features, like Dolby headphone.


----------



## DreamKing

purpleangel said:


> Why is the stereo mix enabled or even being used?
> I really know zero about the Stereo mix stuff, but I'm assuming you have no need for it.
> 
> Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the Xonar DG?
> ...


 
  
 Yes, and that's what I did. The Motherboard's on-board audio has been disabled since I received it. As far as why I'm enabling the stereo mix, this comes from reading posts in this thread. I was assuming stereo mix -> listen to this device: SPDIF Passthrough device would let me listen purely to the DAC when I'm not using Dolby headphone. I can listen to Dolby Headphone this way, but when no signal is present there is a faint sshhh sound that goes away as soon as an audio signal is present.
  
 Before, all I did was use Speakers as the default device and didn't bother with the Stereo Mix but reading through this thread, I saw mentions and steps of enabling the Stereo Mix for multi-channel Dolby Headphone. So I'm trying to find that out from someone with experience with this.
  
 Is setting up the Stereo Mix useless and just setting Speakers Xonar DG as default device is all that it takes to listen to my DAC with DSP settings from the soundcard? I'm inexperienced and just trying to make sure I listen to Dolby headphone through the DAC and not the Xonar DG's DAC.


----------



## PurpleAngel

dreamking said:


> Yes, and that's what I did. The Motherboard's on-board audio has been disabled since I received it. As far as why I'm enabling the stereo mix, this comes from reading posts in this thread. I was assuming stereo mix -> listen to this device: SPDIF Passthrough device would let me listen purely to the DAC when I'm not using Dolby headphone. I can listen to Dolby Headphone this way, but when no signal is present there is a faint sshhh sound that goes away as soon as an audio signal is present.
> 
> Before, all I did was use Speakers as the default device and didn't bother with the Stereo Mix but reading through this thread, I saw mentions and steps of enabling the Stereo Mix for multi-channel Dolby Headphone. So I'm trying to find that out from someone with experience with this.
> 
> Is setting up the Stereo Mix useless and just setting Speakers Xonar DG as default device is all that it takes to listen to my DAC with DSP settings from the sound card? I'm inexperienced and just trying to make sure I listen to Dolby headphone through the DAC and not the Xonar DG's DAC.


 
  
 yes, you do want the Speaker Xonar DG as the default audio device, in the Playback tab.
 Then you use the Xonar's control panel for choosing whether you want the DG to send audio out the line-outputs (back panel 3.5mm jacks) or the DG's S/PDIF optical output port.
  
 It looks the "Stereo Mix" is for recording audio, not for playing back audio.
 So I'm thinking you should leave it disabled.


----------



## DreamKing

purpleangel said:


> yes, you do want the Speaker Xonar DG as the default audio device, in the Playback tab.
> Then you use the Xonar's control panel for choosing whether you want the DG to send audio out the line-outputs (back panel 3.5mm jacks) or the DG's S/PDIF optical output port.
> 
> It looks the "Stereo Mix" is for recording audio, not for playing back audio.
> So I'm thinking you should leave it disabled.


 
  
 Yeah, I was reading too much into it even if it didn't make much sense. I feel pretty dumb lol.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## kirayamato

hi guys i have a creative zxr right now and use the surround option while gaming to 100 percent is that the best surround sound i can get for my headphones or is there a different option i heard creative zxr surround is done through software not hardware so is not as good as the older ones let me know thanks


----------



## Fegefeuer

You have  to find out which setting YOU like best. The default setting of 67% is a pretty good start or balanced option between more distinct, clear cues and more and more blending of them for a more "cinematic" experience (more home cinema). Towards 100% the cues blend into each other much more, the lesser the value the more distinct the cues until surround speakers are not noticably anymore which will lead to stereo (basically). 
  
 I use 67%.


----------



## kirayamato

ok thanks for that but also as i said i heard the creative zxr doesn't have hardware cmss 3d like the older ones is that to say the older cards like the titanium hd were better in this regard


----------



## Davidtech

Hello can I ask you guys something ?
  
  
 I'm very interested in getting a dac/amp solution for my havi b3.
 So far I'm in between the Asus Xonar DS, SMSL SD793-II, and Creative Sound Blaster Audigy PCIe RX
  
  
 The asus and creative card seem a little more promising for its EAX support in games for 3d audio while the
 smsl dac/amp would indicate a higher quality amp. So now I'm a little stuck in deciding which is best.
  
  
 Any thoughts you guys ?


----------



## IanM

Hi all, does have any thoughts or know of a good comparision between latest Realtek ALC1150 vs Sound Core3D (with the full range of SBX studio features) for someone wanting to buy a new Z97 motherboard and not able to fit a soundcard due to lack of space? It seems to me that there is limited choice anyway, most 'premium' motherboards integrate Realtek 1150, just a few Gigabyte and EVGA have the Sound Core3D for this chipset generation. Any other alternatives? (the Creative X7 thing is way too expensive)


----------



## genclaymore

Which motherboard do you have right now? because your board may support X-FI MB3 software suite which does give SBX and features to your onboard. Another option you have is to get a Sound blaster omni which is usb and does have the SBX functions. Usually can be found cheap on amazon or ebay around 45-55ish if you are in the usa.


----------



## IanM

My question is for a couple of new PCs to be built from scratch, so it's really a case of trying to make a best guess on which will be the most adequate substitute for CMSS-3D headphone. Right now I'm back to only using an old Core 2 Duo system with Linux, it's got some old Asus specific Realtek (ALC1200) which I'm not sure will give much insight into how the modern stuff works?
  
 I'm mainly concerned with contemporary games this time (I do have a Titanium HD which will eventually find its' way into another system for retro games) and getting the best positional audio. Creative certainly talk the talk with the SBX Pro Studio, but I wonder if there is much, if any, advantage over the ALC1050 in terms of sense of immersion and location of sounds.


----------



## SpiderNhan

You could give Razer Surround a try. I also use SBX Pro, but find myself switching between the two for different games.


----------



## IanM

Ho hum, I've looked through more of the available boards and as far as I can tell ALC1150 is the only option now for micro-ATX and mini-ITX (except for the EVGA Z97 Stinger, which appears to be a poor product at an insane price.) So by default one decision is made, it has to be Realtek.
  
 As for a full size system, it would appear to be a choice between a Gigabyte GT and G1. G1 has the Sound Core3D (plus a couple of other minor differences) and is around $70-$80 more. I think Realtek might be better supported long term and across different operating systems, so actually that $70-$80 could be used to buy an Omni as suggested by genclaymore. Also, presumably Creative will at some point release other, cheaper versions of the X7 that don't have all the extra amps and unwanted stuff that just adds to the price. I'm favouring the cheaper board as a safer option as it could be more flexible.
  
 Razer Surround looks interesting, especially with a free version to try, thanks.


----------



## 8bitg33k

sniperczar said:


> I rewrote the steps into an actual guide. Crosspost from the MLE thread:
> 
> Here's how to do the handoff of CMSS processed output *completely in software*:
> Before following this checklist, make sure your current audio device is fully configured for CMSS (Windows configure speakers wizard is done and set to a surround setup, Creative Console speakers set to headphones, CMSS-3D is enabled, Crystalizer is disabled, "Disable Sound Blaster enhancements" under the Sound Blaster tab of your default audio device's properties is unchecked). I like unchecking the sub in the Windows wizard here to create a virtual 5.0 rather than a virtual 5.1 because I think it may help tame the overbearing bass some of you were talking about on the 770 80 ohms. The Beyers are already mashing together the bass output from the other 5 virtual channels into a pair of very bass-capable headphones, do you really need a virtual sub as well? Also, as we all know, subwoofer bass position is something your brain can't pinpoint, so I don't see why you'd want lots of it in your pinpoint accurate virtual surround. I think I remember hearing a noticeable difference with this changed in my limited A-B testing with a ripped BD of Evangellion 1.11 (the last battle scene has explosions and technobabbling jumping ALL over every channel when I listen with my physical 5.1 Acoustic Research HC6, so far it's by far the best test of virtual surround I've tried yet), but I wish I had another pair of Beyers to do a real A-B and not rely on my terrible memory/imagination.
> ...


 
 How do I get this to work with an Asus Xonar DG?

 [This would be a screenshot of my available devices under "Recording" if my account had the option to post images.]


----------



## CommanderKeen85

I know this thread is way old, but instead of starting up a new one, I thought I'd post in here.
  
 Can anyone say whether or not you have an advantage when in audio creation mode on the X-Fi line of cards compared to a stand-alone dac(stereo only) for gaming? The reason I ask is that this is my preferred mode on my current x-fi line card (xtremegamer) and I'm contemplating either upgrading to a standalone dac or the Titanium HD next to improve audio quality for music.
  
 I don't know much about it but I read in audio creation mode it's ASIO. Is this essentially stereo mode, the same thing as what a DAC would provide, or is there some advantage it gives for surround sound in games still?


----------



## roguegeek

commanderkeen85 said:


> I know this thread is way old, but instead of starting up a new one, I thought I'd post in here.
> 
> Can anyone say whether or not you have an advantage when in audio creation mode on the X-Fi line of cards compared to a stand-alone dac(stereo only) for gaming? The reason I ask is that this is my preferred mode on my current x-fi line card (xtremegamer) and I'm contemplating either upgrading to a standalone dac or the Titanium HD next to improve audio quality for music.
> 
> I don't know much about it but I read in audio creation mode it's ASIO. Is this essentially stereo mode, the same thing as what a DAC would provide, or is there some advantage it gives for surround sound in games still?


 

 The advantages gaming specific sound cards have over DACs is their sound sound codecs. If emulating surround sound through your headphones is important to you, you're going to want to get a nice card (the Titanium HD you pointed out is excellent) and possibly some external amplification depending on the cans you use.
  
 FYI, this thread may have been created a while ago, but it's still very active and has a wealth of knowledge to pick from. There's other gaming threads around here, but they're 95% fluff and off-topic where as this one is all business. So you came to the right place.


----------



## CommanderKeen85

roguegeek said:


> The advantages gaming specific sound cards have over DACs is their sound sound codecs. If emulating surround sound through your headphones is important to you, you're going to want to get a nice card (the Titanium HD you pointed out is excellent) and possibly some external amplification depending on the cans you use.
> 
> FYI, this thread may have been created a while ago, but it's still very active and has a wealth of knowledge to pick from. There's other gaming threads around here, but they're 95% fluff and off-topic where as this one is all business. So you came to the right place.




Thank you very much!! I have the dt990 premium and O2 amp. Sounds like this will be a good combo.


----------



## 8bitg33k

8bitg33k said:


> How do I get this to work with an Asus Xonar DG?
> 
> [This would be a screenshot of my available devices under "Recording" if my account had the option to post images.]


 
 Quoting my own post, hehe 
  
 I got it to work after fiddling around a bit. Hope this post helps someone else down the road!


----------



## Davidtech

Can anyone comment on sound quality diffrences betiween the ASUS Xonar DS and ASUS Xonar DG ?
  
 What I'm asking is if one has a clear advantage in sound quality over the other (and thus if twice the money is worth it)


----------



## 8bitg33k

davidtech said:


> Can anyone comment on sound quality diffrences betiween the ASUS Xonar DS and ASUS Xonar DG ?
> 
> What I'm asking is if one has a clear advantage in sound quality over the other (and thus if twice the money is worth it)


 
  
*Asus Xonar DG*:
  




Spoiler: Asus Xonar DG Specs




Audio Performance *Output Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):*
 105 dB 
*Input Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):*
 103 dB 
*Output THD+N at 1kHz:*
 0.0025% (-92dB) 
*Input THD+N at 1kHz:*
 0.0022% (-93dB) 
*Frequency Response (-3dB, 24-bit/96kHz input):*
 <10Hz to 48kHz 
*Output/Input Full-Scale Voltage*
 1Vrms (3Vp-p) 

Bus Compatibility *PCI:*
 PCI v2.2 or above bus compatible

Main Chipset *High Fidelity Headphone Amplifier:*
 Optimized for 32~150Ω *Audio Processor:*
 C-Media CMI8786 High-Definition Sound Processor (Max. 96KHz/24bit) 
*24-bit D-A Converter of Digital Sources:*
 Cirrus Logic CS4245*1 (104dB DNR, Max. 192KHz/24bit) / Cirrus Logic CS4361*1 (103dB DNR, Max. 192KHz/24bit) 
*24-bit A-D Converter for Analog Inputs:*
 Cirrus Logic CS4245*1 (104dB DNR, Max. 192KHz/24bit) 

Sample Rate and Resolution *Analog Playback Sample Rate and Resolution:*
 44.1K/48K/96KHz @ 16/24bit for all channels 
*Analog Recording Sample Rate and Resolution:*
 44.1K/48K/96KHz @ 16/24bit 
*S/PDIF Digital Output:*
 44.1K/48K/96KHz @ 16/24bit, Dolby Digital, DTS, WMA-Pro 
*ASIO 2.0 Driver Support:*
 44.1K/48K/96KHz @ 16/24bit

I/O Ports *Analog Output Jack:*
 3.50mm mini jack *3 (Front/Side/Center-Subwoofer) 
*Analog Input Jack:*
 3.50mm mini jack *1 (Line-In/Mic-In) 
*Other line-level analog input (for CD-IN/TV Tuner):*
 Aux-In (4-pin header on the card) 
*Digital S/PDIF Output:*
 High-bandwidth Optical Connector supports 96KHz/24bit 
 -additional SPDIF-out header for HDMI audio output 
*Front-Panel Header: *
 Supports headphone jack-detection, automatically switch audio output from back-panel to front 

Driver Features *VocalFX™:*
 The latest vocal effect technologies for gaming and VoIP, including: 
 - VoiceEX: produces vivid environmental reverberation for your voice in EAX games 
 - ChatEX: emulates different background environment effects when you chat online 
 - Magic Voice: changes your voice pitch to different types (Monster/Cartoon…) for disguising your real voice or just for fun in online chatting *Operation System:*
 Windows Vista/XP(32/64bit)/MCE2005 
*Dolby® Technologies:*
 Dolby Headphone: technology allows users to listen to music, watch movies, or play games with the dramatic 5.1-channel surround or realistic 3D spacious effects through any set of stereo headphones. 
*Smart Volume Normalizer™:*
 Normalizes the volume of all audio sources into a constant level and also enhances your 3D sound listening range and advantages in gaming 
*Xear 3D™ Virtual Speaker Shifter:*
 Adjustable virtual 7.1-speaker positioning 
*Magic Voice™:*
 Changes your voice pitch to different types (Monster/Cartoon…) for disguising your real voice or just for fun in online chatting 
*Karaoke Functions:*
 Music Pitch-Shifting, Vocal Cancellation, and Microphone Echo effects with Stereo Mix recording (Wave and Mic-in) for online Karaoke or online DJ applications 
*FlexBass™:*
 Professional Bass Management/Enhancement system 
*Other Effects:*
 10-band Equalier/27 Environment Effects 
*3D Sound Engines/APIs:*
 7: DirectSound3D® GX 2.5, EAX®2.0&1.0, DirectSound® HW, DirectSound SW, A3D®1.0, OpenAL generic modes, 128 3D sounds processing capability 
 Vista: DirectSound3D® GX 2.5, EAX®2.0&1.0, DirectSound® HW, DirectSound SW, A3D®1.0, OpenAL generic modes, 128 3D sounds processing capability 
 XP: DirectSound3D® GX 2.5, EAX®2.0&1.0, DirectSound® HW, DirectSound SW, A3D®1.0, OpenAL generic modes, 128 3D sounds processing capability 

*DS3D GX2.0:*
 DS3D GX 2.5 supports EAX gaming sound effects and DirectSound 3D hardware enhanced functions on Windows 7/Vista. (DirectX/DirectSound 3D compatible) 

Accessories 1 x Quick Start Guide
 1 x Driver CD
 1 x Low-profile Bracket

Size 64.39 170.44mm x




  

 
*Asus Xonar DS*
 



Spoiler: Asus Xonar DS Specs




Audio Performance *Output Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):*
 Up to 107 dB 
*Input Signal-to-Noise Ratio (A-Weighted):*
 100 dB 
*Output THD+N at 1kHz:*
 Up to 0.0017% (-95dB) 
*Input THD+N at 1kHz:*
 Up to 0.0017% (-95dB) 
*Frequency Response (-3dB, 24-bit/96kHz input):*
 <10Hz to 48kHz 
*Output/Input Full-Scale Voltage*
 1 Vrms (3Vp-p) 
*Sample Rate Conversion Quality:*
 Almost lossless, high-fidelity floating-point filters, with: 
 -140dB THD+N (typical value for 44.1K->48KHz, 24bit) 
 145dB Dynamic Range (typical value for 44.1K->48KHz, 24bit) 

Main Chipset *Audio Processor:*
 ASUS AV200 High-Performance Sound Processor (Max. 192KHz/24bit) 
*24-bit D-A Converter of Digital Sources:*
 Wolfson WM8776* 1 (108dB SNR, Max. 192kHz/24bit) / Wolfson WM8766*1 (103dB SNR, Max. 192kHz/24bit) 
*24-bit A-D Converter for Analog Inputs:*
 Wolfson WM8776* 1 (102dB SNR, Max. 96kHz/24bit) 

Sample Rate and Resolution *Analog Playback Sample Rate and Resolution:*
 44.1K/48K/96K/192KHz @ 16/24bit for all channels 
*Analog Recording Sample Rate and Resolution:*
 44.1K/48K/96KHz @ 16/24bit 
*S/PDIF Digital Output:*
 44.1K/48K/96K/192KHz @ 16/24bit, Dolby Digital, DTS, WMA-Pro 
*ASIO 2.0 Driver Support:*
 44.1K/48K/96K/192KHz @ 16/24bit

I/O Ports *Analog Output Jack:*
 3.50mm mini jack *4 (Front/Side/Center-Subwoofer/Back) 
*Analog Input Jack:*
 3.50mm mini jack *1 (Line-In/Mic-In) 
*Other line-level analog input (for CD-IN/TV Tuner):*
 Aux-In (4-pin header on the card) 
*Digital S/PDIF Output:*
 High-bandwidth Optical Connector supports 192KHz/24bit (shared with Back surround output jack) 
*Front-Panel Header:*
 Intel HDA front-panel compatible and supports HP jack-detection and automatically switch audio output from back-panel to front 
*S/PDIF Header:*
 Additional SPDIF-out header for connecting graphics card with HDMI audio output

Driver Features *Operation System:*
 Windows Vista/XP(32/64bit)/MCE2005 
*DTS® Technologies:*
 DTS® Connect (DTS Interactive Encoder and DTS NeoC) for both XP and Vista 
 -DTS Interactive encodes any 3D gaming audio into true-to-live 5.1 DTS Digital Surround sound experience 
 -DTS NeoC could expand any stereo music to 7.1 surround sounds 
*Smart Volume Normalizer™:*
 Normalizes the volume of all audio sources into a constant level and also enhances your 3D sound listening range and advantages in gaming 
*Xear 3D™ Virtual Speaker Shifter:*
 Adjustable virtual 7.1-speaker positioning 
*Karaoke Functions:*
 Music Pitch-Shifting, Vocal Cancellation, and Microphone Echo effects with Stereo Mix recording (Wave and Mic-in) for online Karaoke or online DJ applications 
*FlexBass™:*
 Professional Bass Management/Enhancement system 
*Other Effects:*
 10-band Equalier/27 Environment Effects 
*3D Sound Engines/APIs:*
 Vista: DirectSound3D® GX 2.5, EAX®2.0&1.0, DirectSound® HW, DirectSound SW, A3D®1.0, OpenAL generic modes, 128 3D sounds processing capability 
 XP: DirectSound3D® GX 2.5, EAX®2.0&1.0, DirectSound® HW, DirectSound SW, A3D®1.0, OpenAL generic modes, 128 3D sounds processing capability 
*VocalFX™:*
 The latest vocal effect technologies for gaming and VoIP, including: 
 - VoiceEX: produces vivid environmental reverberation for your voice in EAX games 
 - ChatEX: emulates different background environment effects when you chat online 
 - Magic Voice: changes your voice pitch to different types (Monster/Cartoon…) for disguising your real voice or just for fun in online chatting 

Bundled Software Utility  

Accessories 1 x S/PDIF optical adaptors
 1 x Low-profile Bracket

 



 tl;dr The DS features a better DAC and has some capabilites such as DTS that the DG does not have. I honestly doubt you will hear any difference though unless you have a very high quality headset.


----------



## genclaymore

THe main differents between the DG and the DS, is the DG has dolby headphone and not encoders but have a decent headphone amp. While the DS has the encoders and the op-amp socket and no headphone amp. Meaning you can swap op-amps on the DS but at the cost of having no dolby headphone. Where the DG you can use Dolby headphone but at the cost of not being able to change the sound signature of the card  and be able to send Dolby Digital 5.1 encoded thru optical.


----------



## Davidtech

Well yes the spec differences are very telling. But I'm asking from a general perspective as to how they actually sound (ie midrange clarity, bass etc)


----------



## CommanderKeen85

roguegeek said:


> The advantages gaming specific sound cards have over DACs is their sound sound codecs. If emulating surround sound through your headphones is important to you, you're going to want to get a nice card (the Titanium HD you pointed out is excellent) and possibly some external amplification depending on the cans you use.
> 
> FYI, this thread may have been created a while ago, but it's still very active and has a wealth of knowledge to pick from. There's other gaming threads around here, but they're 95% fluff and off-topic where as this one is all business. So you came to the right place.


 
 I won a Titanium HD from ebay last week, just received and installed it... I was really expecting the slight hiss sound with the xtremegamer, which becomes more pronounced the higher the volume, to disappear. Sounds great by the way, I'm just trying to figure this last thing out. Any idea what might be causing this? Obviously it's not the sound card. It's not the dt990 premiums. So it's either the O2 amp, the cable that connects the O2 amp to the sound card, or the song source. Some songs don't seem to have an issue while 85 percent or more have the hiss/static sound. It really messes with the experience. 
  
 EDIT: Also, it seems sometimes it'S tough to get enough volume... maybe I have a faulty power adapter to the 02? SIGH.... Right at the moment I have the O2 amp on full volume (knob twisted to max with windows volume at max and software max) it's not even close to overboard...


----------



## roguegeek

commanderkeen85 said:


> I won a Titanium HD from ebay last week, just received and installed it... I was really expecting the slight hiss sound with the xtremegamer, which becomes more pronounced the higher the volume, to disappear. Sounds great by the way, I'm just trying to figure this last thing out. Any idea what might be causing this? Obviously it's not the sound card. It's not the dt990 premiums. So it's either the O2 amp, the cable that connects the O2 amp to the sound card, or the song source. Some songs don't seem to have an issue while 85 percent or more have the hiss/static sound. It really messes with the experience.
> 
> EDIT: Also, it seems sometimes it'S tough to get enough volume... maybe I have a faulty power adapter to the 02? SIGH.... Right at the moment I have the O2 amp on full volume (knob twisted to max with windows volume at max and software max) it's not even close to overboard...


 
  
 It could be a number of things. Let me see if I understand you correctly. You have a DT 990 (250 Ohm) connected to an O2 amp connected to the X-Fi Titanium HD and you're hearing a hiss when the volume is turned up. Do you hear it only on playback of a song or can you hear it when you just turn up the volume with nothing playing? My first thought is it's your amp, but yeah, it could be a lot of things. When you remove the amp from the line (I know that card can't power that can very well, but for testing purposes) and turn up the volume, do you still hear the hiss?


----------



## CommanderKeen85

Nothing when no song is playing... im thinking its the amp. Very frustrating day off... music barely was playing loud enough... i dont know what is going on. Computer is acting up, I tried doing a windows reinstall and I now cant find my windows 7 disk and key... went from a high to a very current low.


----------



## MrEleventy

commanderkeen85 said:


> Nothing when no song is playing... im thinking its the amp. Very frustrating day off... music barely was playing loud enough... i dont know what is going on. Computer is acting up, I tried doing a windows reinstall and I now cant find my windows 7 disk and key... went from a high to a very current low.


This will help you get your CD Key back. Produkey
 As for a copy of Windows 7... bit torrent?


----------



## mindbomb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wFdQPGxKIQ
  
 Here's a short 13s video that compares a 5.1 speaker test through dolby headphone to standard stereo. I think it's pretty telling.


----------



## wilflare

okay I have a Soundblaster Zx... which honestly has been VERY underutilized.
 I still use my Audinst HUD-MX1 way more.
  
 I do game on my PC but I don't know it justifies the cost of a soundcard
  
 any thoughts?
  
 (I usually play the multiplatform games on PC, strategy, building sims and the PC-only indies)
  
 EDIT: my bad
 so my question is - should I keep the soundcard? or save the money? does it make that much of a difference with the kind of games I play to justify the cost?


----------



## PurpleAngel

wilflare said:


> okay I have a Sound blaster Zx... which honestly has been VERY underutilized.
> I still use my Audinst HUD-MX1 way more.
> I do game on my PC but I don't know it justifies the cost of a sound card
> any thoughts?
> (I usually play the multiplatform games on PC, strategy, building sims and the PC-only indies)


 
  
 I guess I'm too dumb as I really can't understand what your question is really about?


----------



## wilflare

purpleangel said:


> I guess I'm too dumb as I really can't understand what your question is really about?


 
  
 my bad - missed out on the question
 so my question is - should I keep the soundcard? or save the money? does it make that much of a difference with the kind of games I play to justify the cost?


----------



## genclaymore

Do you use the SBX surround function on the sound blaster z for virtual surround? Or use 5.1 speakers along side your headphone setup, if no then there no reason to keep the sound blaster z if you do not use any of those features. You could plug the sound blaster z into the aune thru RCA input but the problem is if you do, you will only be using the op-amp section of the unit which where the amp section is and not the tube section which is used thru usb in the dac section. Only way to use the tube along side the op-amp is if you use stereo mix(what u hear) to route it to the usb of the aune T1.


----------



## 8bitg33k

For the life of me, I can't figure out why the BoomPro isn't working. It is plugged in correctly but doesn't show up in my recording devices. What am is missing here guys 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  

  

  
(and please don't comment on the dust, lol!)


----------



## PurpleAngel

wilflare said:


> my bad - missed out on the question
> so my question is - should I keep the sound card? or save the money? does it make that much of a difference with the kind of games I play to justify the cost?


 
  
 Seems like the Audinst HUD-MX-1 is what you gravitate towards, so return the SB-Zx.
  
 But did you try gaming with the SB-Zx and also have the on-board audio disabled, it the BIOS?


----------



## MrEleventy

8bitg33k said:


> For the life of me, I can't figure out why the BoomPro isn't working. It is plugged in correctly but doesn't show up in my recording devices. What am is missing here guys
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If the headphone out is plugged into the mic in on the soundcard, you have it hooked up wrong. You're feeding the audio that you get from the soundcard into the mic. If you have echo/playback on, you'll essentially have an audio infinite loop. You'll need to use the red & green splitter that came with the boompro. Plug green into the Fiio and the red into the soundcard mic.My bad, the moda splitter isn't colored.

What do you mean by "Not showing up"? Are you expecting something to show up that says, "Boom Pro plugged in"?


----------



## 8bitg33k

mreleventy said:


> If the headphone out is plugged into the mic in on the soundcard, you have it hooked up wrong. You're feeding the audio that you get from the soundcard into the mic. If you have echo/playback on, you'll essentially have an audio infinite loop. You'll need to use the red & green splitter that came with the boompro. Plug green into the Fiio and the red into the soundcard mic.My bad, the moda splitter isn't colored.
> 
> What do you mean by "Not showing up"? Are you expecting something to show up that says, "Boom Pro plugged in"?


 
  
 No. Of course not. I may be a noob but I'm not stupid.
  
 Like it shows in the picture. The Asus Microphone is showing as "Currently unavailable". I don't understand why. The status should read "Ready".
  
 EDIT: The BoomPro splitter does have little icons on each plug, one indicating Microphone and the other as headset. They are plugged in correctly.

 Still not sure what the issue was, but I was able to resolve it by randomly trying different settings by right clicking on the devices and checking/ unchecking the "Listen to this Device" options.


----------



## MrEleventy

8bitg33k said:


> No. Of course not. I may be a noob but I'm not stupid.
> 
> Like it shows in the picture. The Asus Microphone is showing as "Currently unavailable". I don't understand why. The status should read "Ready".


My apologies. it's just a habit. I've done enough Friends & Family Tech Support that it's automatically the level I start at. 
As for the mic issue, I'm not sure. I don't have anything plugged into my mic port and it still says "available"

I tried googling, came back with this



> I went to my sound card center... Start>All programs>Asus Xonar Dg Audio>Asus Xonar DG Audio Center. Then in the center I first went to the "Main" tab, and changed Analog out from 2 speakers to Headphones. Then I went to the "Mixer" tab then I clicked the little microphone looking thing next to the slide labeled "Mic". Inside that microphone tab, I changed "Front Microphone" to "Microphone". Hope this helps people, this will help for people with the same sound card, or if anyone has an audio center.




Since you're plugging into the back, maybe you need to change that setting?


----------



## 8bitg33k

mreleventy said:


> My apologies. it's just a habit. I've done enough Friends & Family Tech Support that it's automatically the level I start at.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 No worries man - I totally get it. And I apologize for my snippy comeback, I am not at all well this morning and probably took your helpful comment the wrong way.
  
 But yeah, it's working fine now. And by 'fine' I mean GREAT!! The BoomPro is really a great little device!


----------



## MrEleventy

8bitg33k said:


> No worries man - I totally get it. And I apologize for my snippy comeback, I am not at all well this morning and probably took your helpful comment the wrong way.
> 
> But yeah, it's working fine now. And by 'fine' I mean GREAT!! The BoomPro is really a great little device!


That's great to hear.  Lemme know how the SQ is with the boompro. The mic is the last thing I need for my setup but been too lazy/unproductive to do it.


----------



## 8bitg33k

mreleventy said:


> That's great to hear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Will do for sure! I'll try and get on Skype or something with some people today and report back. From everything I've read though I expect legendary quality. Fwiw, VoiceAttack recognizes my commands much better now than with my old Dynex Desktop micro. The recognition rate has increased noticeably - although I cant quantify that in terms of stats I don't have to repeat myself as often as I did before.


----------



## MrKazador

Does the Xonar DX (or any other high quality sound card) support Dolby Headphone through the line output so it can be used with an amp? I'm thinking about upgrading my Xonar DG which supports this feature.


----------



## pauldgroot

My Titanium HD does all of the effects through it's RCA outputs to my O2 amp.


----------



## PurpleAngel

mrkazador said:


> Does the Xonar DX (or any other high quality sound card) support Dolby Headphone through the line output so it can be used with an amp? I'm thinking about upgrading my Xonar DG which supports this feature.


 
  
 The Xonar DG, DGX, DS, DSX, D1 & DX will work fine with an external DAC/amp.
 The DG, DGX, D1, DX will send Dolby Headphone out the line-output jack, to an external headphone amplifier.
 The DS & DSX have DTS Headphone (not Dolby).
  
 May times I've recommend to people to get the Xonar DX and an external headphone amplifier.
 The Xonar DX and D1 have many of the same functions, as the Essence STX & ST. and all use the same C-media CMI8788 audio processor.


----------



## MrKazador

mrkazador said:


> Does the Xonar DX (or any other high quality sound card) support Dolby Headphone through the line output so it can be used with an amp? I'm thinking about upgrading my Xonar DG which supports this feature.


 
  
 I just realized that the Front lineout on the Xonar DG is also the headphone port which is amplified. The DX and D1 don't have a headphone amplifier?


----------



## Decimator

I have a soundblaster z card and I'm looking for an external amp and dac to hook up to it for SBX surround sound. Now I was under the impression that I needed to hook up via optical to get SBX surround sent to the dac, but after reading some posts here, I'm not sure that's actually the case. Do I need optical on my DAC to hook up to the sound card for SBX, or are there alternative/better methods?


----------



## genclaymore

Using optical is a easier method and works just fine for connecting the z to a external dac, The other method is"what u here" It works but should only be used if your dac is just usb with no optical.


----------



## DrunkenTiger

What's an upgrade from a SoundBlaster Omni, using Sennheiser G4ME ZEROs and I love the combination but I'm curious.
 Has to be through USB, most played game nowadays is BF4.


----------



## pric0

hello guys! I have an issue which i would like to discuss with you here.
  
 I use the X-Fi Titanium 7.1 PCIe for 2 years+ now, and i can't recommend it enough  it is GREAT!
 playing csgo most of the time, it helps a lot at positional information and makes everything sound so good from music to movies.. i plugged my headphones once to my brother's pc and was disgusted at how ugly on-board audio is compared to this beauty.
 long story short (or longer), I got a VI Impact Motherboard as a gift, and decided to build a new mini-ITX system around it. and to my bad luck, the only PCIe for my Titanium will be used for a GPU, since it's a mini-ITX.. and it has the ****premeFX sound card with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL9O129skMQ
 looks like a cheap-ass soundcard to me, and he is not the only guy with that problem.. been seeing a lot of threads about it.
  
 so i don't know if i should just sell this mobo (or try to), or get an external sound card (which is not likely, cuz i ******* love my titanium).. any suggestions?  thanks.


----------



## genclaymore

I know that you like your X-FI Titanium 7.1 PCI-E but for usb the sound blaster omni is a good choice and usually can be found cheap, as well the creative E3 or the higher costing E5. The only other option is if your ITX mobo supports Creative X-FI MB3 software suite, you could then send the creative features over optical to a cheap external/amp all in one unit. But you might just want something simple so the sound blaster omni would work or the creative E3/E5. If you perfer CMSS3D headphone then theirs the old X-FI Go which is usually 19 dollars which is usb as well.
  
 If you don't like either of the options then sell the motherboard and get one with the functions you need.


----------



## Decimator

Can SBX be sent through the 3.5mm headphone jack on the soundblaster z or would I only be able to get stereo?


----------



## genclaymore

yea it can be sent thru the headphone jack on the sound blaster z, you just need to make sure you config windows and games correctly so it will sound right.


----------



## pietcux

I had a Xonar STX in a PC that I sold 3 years ago. I switched to an Asus gaming Laptop then. Ever since that day I missed the Xonar STX. Recently I visited the guy ( a relative of mine). He had set the old PC aside and told me he wanted to disassemble it and sell all parts seperately. Long story short, I rescued the Xonar that was still in it's old place that I gave her. My laptop is still around, but I have build a new main rig with a GTX980 over the last two years. The Xonar replaces the Sound Blaster Z that I had bought. I love the Xonar very much over the Sound Blaster the stereo sound is just so good. And for gaming I also like the Dolby Headphone very much.


----------



## Skippman

There's a lot of information here and I regret I won't have time to churn through all 200+ pages of it. I'm sure this question has been asked at length so please forgive me.
  
  
 Reading the Page One guide on this Nameless states the EMU20K2/1 chip from the X-Fi series are superior to the Sound Core3D. Is this true for all applications or just 2 channel stereo? I ask as I just purchased a Sound Blaster Z to put into my rig and am contemplating on taking it back and replacing it with a X-Fi Titanium. I predominately use my Creative Labs G500 speakers so I need the 5.1 analog outputs which precludes me from using the X-Fi Titanium HD. I'm planning on rotating in a set of headphones for occasional use gaming as well which is why I ask.


----------



## GoldenboyXD

skippman said:


> There's a lot of information here and I regret I won't have time to churn through all 200+ pages of it. I'm sure this question has been asked at length so please forgive me.
> 
> 
> Reading the Page One guide on this Nameless states the EMU20K2/1 chip from the X-Fi series are superior to the Sound Core3D. Is this true for all applications or just 2 channel stereo? I ask as I just purchased a Sound Blaster Z to put into my rig and am contemplating on taking it back and replacing it with a X-Fi Titanium. I predominately use my Creative Labs G500 speakers so I need the 5.1 analog outputs which precludes me from using the X-Fi Titanium HD. I'm planning on rotating in a set of headphones for occasional use gaming as well which is why I ask.


 
 IMHO, the X-Fi Titanium HD is best if you can fully utilize the CMSS-3D feature when gaming on first person shooters and this card is also best for stereo music (2 Ch.) if you are in a budget for Audiophile quality in PC. Otherwise, for 5.1 setup or getting an upgrade in general from onboard audio you may get the Sound Blaster Z.


----------



## Decimator

Dumb question, but could you connect a soundcard, soundblaster z for example, via optical to an earforce DSS? I imagine you would have to have the DSS set to Dolby bypass so you're not processing surround sound twice, but would you get the benefit of the better amp on the soundblaster z with SBX processing, with volume control and bass adjustments on the fly with the DSS? Sorry if this a pointless question, just curious if it would work.


----------



## cdsa35000

Sure if the soundcard support DDL= Dolby Digital Live (5.1 surround optical out).

And any 5.1 surround is for 5.1 SPEAKER setup, Headphone Surround processing is to convert this 5.1 into HTRF stereo 2.0.


----------



## Skippman

goldenboyxd said:


> IMHO, the X-Fi Titanium HD is best if you can fully utilize the CMSS-3D feature when gaming on first person shooters and this card is also best for stereo music (2 Ch.) if you are in a budget for Audiophile quality in PC. Otherwise, for 5.1 setup or getting an upgrade in general from onboard audio you may get the Sound Blaster Z.


 
  
 Gang,

 I thought I'd take a moment to report in with my findings now that I have the Sound Blaster Z installed in my rig. I'm 5 days into the new sound card, and it has it's pro's and con's. Sound is definitely more positional and "expansive" over the onboard Realtek ALC1150, even with the X-Fi MB3 software. This has come somewhat at the cost of what feels like low-mid to mid range sound. I expect given enough time I could "EQ" that out, but I find it a bit annoying right now. 

 I attribute the expansive and immersive sound to two things primarily. The more advanced software of the Z, and the Z's time alignment settings. Rather than feeling like I'm sitting in front of the sound stage when listening to a 5.1 source I now feel like I'm immersed in it with sound originating all around me simultaneously. 

 I have a friend shipping me back my old X-Fi Titanium. I plan to put that in place of the Z and see how that sounds. It'll mean giving up the Z's dedicated 600ohm headphone jack however. That will affect my long term plans to use a set of Audio Technica ATH-AD700X's with it.

 I'm still playing with the Z, and I might not send it back. My main experience with it thus far has been Bioshock 2 (2010) which is an older game. Bioshock 2 used the Unreal 2.5 engine which maxed out at EAX 3.0, we're now on 5.0. It also didn't support DS3D. I had occasional audio glitches like a complete loss of a sound layer. I'm attributing that to an issue between the game engine and Direct Sound drivers. I've not yet played with it in depth in Battlefield 4 or any other modern games.

 Right now I'm testing it with Bioshock Infinite and Battlefield 4. I'll report back with what differences I notice in the audio between the older game and the newer ones.

 Does anyone have any 5.1 game source materials you'd recommend I try out for basis of comparison?


----------



## genclaymore

skippman said:


> Gang,
> 
> I thought I'd take a moment to report in with my findings now that I have the Sound Blaster Z installed in my rig. I'm 5 days into the new sound card, and it has it's pro's and con's. Sound is definitely more positional and "expansive" over the onboard Realtek ALC1150, even with the X-Fi MB3 software. This has come somewhat at the cost of what feels like low-mid to mid range sound. I expect given enough time I could "EQ" that out, but I find it a bit annoying right now.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 For older games that uses the DS3D or the miles2D sound just use Alchemy which is part of the X-FI MB3 and sound blaster Z software suite as well the X-FI software suite. Which will re-enable EAX support as well fix surround sound issues. Which I use for both Fallout New vegas and bioshock 1 and any other game that uses either of those Two API's it not needed for openAL using games of course. Some games that uses the unreal engine might have the option to switch to openAL in it engine.ini file in the my games folder in my docs, but some times that doesn't work with newer games that uses just Xaudio2 even if openAL which is labeled differently inside the file. The Audio Technica headphones doesn't benefit from being amped,they tend to be easy to drive headphones and the only thing that matter is a good source.
  
 So unless you had something like a AKG K701 or DT880 pro-250 then you won't miss the sound blaster Z hp amp. The only thing you might miss is SBX surround if your used to it as CMSS3D headphone does it differently then SBX surround and does something to the bass.There was a video that some one did on youtube that had a comparision between Dolby Headphone,SBX surround 67% and 100% and then CMSS 3D headphone and they used BF3 to do the comparison it is the only way to know for sure which of the 3 virtual headphones functions you will like. I suggest doing that first before you decide to go to a titanium HD from your Z if your not happy with your Z. I personally wouldn't do to the prices of the titanium HD's being too close to the used ZXR prices but thats me.
  
  
  


goldenboyxd said:


> IMHO, the X-Fi Titanium HD is best if you can fully utilize the CMSS-3D feature when gaming on first person shooters and this card is also best for stereo music (2 Ch.) if you are in a budget for Audiophile quality in PC. Otherwise, for 5.1 setup or getting an upgrade in general from onboard audio you may get the Sound Blaster Z.


 

 Another option is a used Auzentech X-FI prelude that I have seen go for $50 plenty of times on ebay. The only issues with the Titanium HD is that it is hard to find and when you do find it. It ends up costing around $199 and in that case you might as well just grab a used ZXR for 175-199 instead. I have used CMSS3D headphone my self but i don't like what it does to the bass while it does work good in great in some games and not in others. I find SBX surround to work great in most games I tried that didn't with CMSS3D headphone. Plus SBX surround doesn't jack up the bass like CMSS3D headphone did.


----------



## GoldenboyXD

genclaymore said:


> Another option is a used Auzentech X-FI prelude that I have seen go for $50 plenty of times on ebay. The only issues with the Titanium HD is that it is hard to find and when you do find it. It ends up costing around $199 and in that case you might as well just grab a used ZXR for 175-199 instead. I have used CMSS3D headphone my self but i don't like what it does to the bass while it does work good in great in some games and not in others. I find SBX surround to work great in most games I tried that didn't with CMSS3D headphone. Plus SBX surround doesn't jack up the bass like CMSS3D headphone did.


 
 Correct. The CMSS-3D jack up the bass department and enhance the treble and maybe sound piercing for some people. So it is still a personal taste. Overall the Sound Blaster Z will do the job done using the SBX surround for FPS and other games.
  
 Here is the video link for the sound comparison for your satisfaction needs.
https://www.youtube.com/user/FrekeOne


----------



## Fegefeuer

CMSS-3D treble can be horrible with a few headphones. I wish we'd get a proper OpenAL implementation for Z cards.


----------



## dyrdevil

Hi Everyone,
  
 posting here in the hope that I can gain some knowledge from you all.
  
 My goal: Good quality sound, also able to use virtual surround for gaming.
 My limitations:  limited pcie slots in computer.
  
 The ideal: sbz card for sbx surround, optical out to external dac/amp.  However, I'm trying to figure out an alternative without using a pcie/internal card.
  
 Option 1: use a creative external usb card with sbx surround and optical in/out and send that to dac/amp.
 Option 2: use XFI3 MB software and use mobo optical out to dac/amp.
 Option 3: use alternative software like razer surround.
 Option 4: use my new Soundblaster x7.
  
 I'll try to keep this as short as possible:
  
 The new X7 sounds great.  Some shortcomings in its functionality have me nervous, and I'd prefer to get the great sound processing for my games somewhere else and be free to experiment with other dac/amps.
  
 Will an external usb creative card like the digital music premuim HD or the XFI 3MB software give me the same quality of DSP as the X7 is?  I've got the XFI MB software but I can't get the 5.1 or 7.1 options to show up in my windows control panel.  (just showing stereo... likely due to a driver problem with the asus gryphon z87 board I'm using - so I'm unsure the MB software suite is working correctly.
  
  
  
 Any ideas are welcome!


----------



## SpiderNhan

You should try Razer Surround. It's actually pretty good.


----------



## wsfrazier

Wanted to bump this with a question I had. I am about to play an order for an external dac/amp with headphones. It will be used for 90% gaming, but I am trying to decide if I should get an SBZ for virtual surround. Or just play games in high quality stereo.
  
 If I would just to use a dac/amp setup and 2.0 stereo only, do any games ever have their own HRTF audio for headphones? I noticed some games give you an option to choose surround or headphones. I am curious if the game sees your selecting headphones, does it use it's own virtual surround?
  
 Or does every games audio fall under one of the API's mentioned in the OP?


----------



## genclaymore

Razer Surround is another option and its free and works with external dac's. You can use that instead of buying a sound blaster Z and put that money else where.


----------



## rudyae86

Quick Question and maybe get a good detailed answer lol.
  
 I bought an Asus Xonar DG, just because I really wanted to test out Dolby Headphone and it was cheap too (16 bucks after rebate).
  
 Anyways, I was wondering, what does the Mixer tab do? I saw a youtube video saying that you should drop it to about 50 percent so the peaks dont go over 0dB. What is he really talking about? Says that if the peaks go over 0dB, you will get distortion and more if it goes up to 20+dB.
  
 Not sure what he says is true or correct.
  
 Thank you
  
 I know what clipping is but how will I know when it will happen or how can i set up the mixer in the Asus Xonar control panel? I did crank it up to 100 and noticed some clipping thus i turned it down again. But Im not sure if the default 76% is good enough or should I lower it?


----------



## rudyae86

rudyae86 said:


> Quick Question and maybe get a good detailed answer lol.
> 
> I bought an Asus Xonar DG, just because I really wanted to test out Dolby Headphone and it was cheap too (16 bucks after rebate).
> 
> ...


 

 Anyone? Im trying to keep this away from MLEs thread.


----------



## rudyae86

What do you guys think about this new sound card PowerColor is releasing?
  
 http://www.techpowerup.com/213055/powercolor-devil-hdx-sound-card-detailed.html
  
 I thought they only focused on Graphic Cards but guess they are trying to get at Audio as well...


----------



## NamelessPFG

wsfrazier said:


> Wanted to bump this with a question I had. I am about to play an order for an external dac/amp with headphones. It will be used for 90% gaming, but I am trying to decide if I should get an SBZ for virtual surround. Or just play games in high quality stereo.
> 
> If I would just to use a dac/amp setup and 2.0 stereo only, do any games ever have their own HRTF audio for headphones? I noticed some games give you an option to choose surround or headphones. I am curious if the game sees your selecting headphones, does it use it's own virtual surround?
> 
> Or does every games audio fall under one of the API's mentioned in the OP?


 
  
 This question largely boils down to the games in question and how their audio is implemented.
  
 The reason most of us pursue sound cards with the proper DSP effects (and external sound processors like the Mixamp on the console gaming side of things) in the first place is that most games are NOT designed with HRTF surround in mind. Everything sounds so flat and one-dimensional on a pure stereo DAC like the ODAC in most cases.
  
 I could even say that for older DirectSound3D/OpenAL-era games, the developers probably weren't thinking of headphone use specifically when implementing 3D audio in their games. It's more of a fortunate accident that it's possible to get good headphone surround out of those games due to how those APIs work.
  
 But even in a software-mixed game that pipes its audio out through predetermined speaker channel buffers or whatever, if the developer actually puts some effort into their software mixing routines, they could easily enable HRTF audio for everyone. The problem there is that things like Battlefield 3 Enhanced Stereo Mode are the EXCEPTION, not the norm.
  
 The good news is that we may not have to put up with substandard headphone audio for much longer and not have to buy a sound card to ensure it sounds good, since Oculus VR now has an Audio SDK that provides software-mixed HRTF audio that integrates with FMOD, Wwise and Unity (among other things), all free of charge AFAIK. It's quite a stark contrast to something like AstoundSound, which has an expensive licensing fee attached and requires an AMD card with the TrueAudio DSP to really get the most out of.
  
 This will benefit everyone who games on headphones, regardless of whether or not a VR headset is actually being used, though the head-tracking aids in positioning. There's a reason Beyerdynamic and Smyth Research actually bothered to implement head-tracking in their surround processors, after all.
  
 Speaking of which, the Audio SDK documentation is a very good read. I encourage everyone here to read it, even those of you who aren't planning to actually develop games, because it goes in depth with a lot of the theory behind spatialized sound and the challenges with actually implementing it in-game. 
  
 The bad news is that developers still have to care enough to actually implement it, and going by the aforementioned audio SDK documentation, the high-quality spatialization mode is computationally expensive, especially on mobile devices.
  
 You would think that we'd be past the days of CPU performance being the main bottleneck since the era of Half-Life 1 and Aureal A3D (go look up the reviews/benchmarks and you'll find just how much of a performance hit you took to enable A3D in the first place), but we could still benefit from audio DSPs dedicated to this stuff...
  


rudyae86 said:


> Quick Question and maybe get a good detailed answer lol.
> 
> I bought an Asus Xonar DG, just because I really wanted to test out Dolby Headphone and it was cheap too (16 bucks after rebate).
> 
> ...


 
  
 I say that you go by your ears on this one, especially since you already know what clipping sounds like and thus know what to listen for.
  
 It's just common advice for equalizer use to never adjust upward due to the risk of clipping, but at least with my X-Fi cards, I've noticed that setting the main volume below 100% gives me a fair amount of upward headroom as well. Perhaps it's the same on other sound cards as well, where you have more room above 0db on the EQ that won't clip the lower your master volume is set.
  
  Quote:


rudyae86 said:


> What do you guys think about this new sound card PowerColor is releasing?
> 
> http://www.techpowerup.com/213055/powercolor-devil-hdx-sound-card-detailed.html
> 
> I thought they only focused on Graphic Cards but guess they are trying to get at Audio as well...


 
  
 Wasn't expecting this announcement myself, but it sounds like they're going with the typical C-Media Xear3D mixing for spatialization, no Dolby Headphone licensing or anything like that.
  
 At least C-Media's still making new sound card chipsets, since this one's sporting a CMI8888 compared to the CMI8788 that powered a lot of Asus Xonar, HT Omega and Auzentech cards.


----------



## YT-MrEleven1181

Hello everyone.

I'm basically looking for some advice on a good audiophile sound setup for PC. I'm just about to build my 1st gaming PC and don't know how the sound setups work, I've always been a console gamer in the past.

My current setup for console is astro mixamp pro as my DAC then schiit vali for my tube amp then Akg q701 for my headphones. So I'm looking for a good sound setup for PC now.

I also want to switch from Dolby surround sound to sbx true surround sound so looking at sound blaster products. Can I get a few opinions from use guys please ? 

Games I'll be playing are cs go arma3 battlefield and maybe some cod also ordered a msi gaming 5 mobo but not sure if the audio on that will be very good.


----------



## rudyae86

yt-mreleven1181 said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> I'm basically looking for some advice on a good audiophile sound setup for PC. I'm just about to build my 1st gaming PC and don't know how the sound setups work, I've always been a console gamer in the past.
> 
> ...


 
 Sound Blaster Z. Probably the best and cheapest option out there for PC unless you want to go Sound Blaster X7 and ditch the Astro Mix amp all together. X7 can be used both for consoles and PC.
  
 As for your motherboard, it seems to have better quality components than a regular motherboard but the Sound Blaster Cinema 2 seems to be more software oriented than hardware but not sure to be honest. It could work but the quality wont be the same as a Sound Blaster Z.
  
 Also, whats your budget?


----------



## YT-MrEleven1181

rudyae86 said:


> Sound Blaster Z. Probably the best and cheapest option out there for PC unless you want to go Sound Blaster X7 and ditch the Astro Mix amp all together. X7 can be used both for consoles and PC.
> 
> As for your motherboard, it seems to have better quality components than a regular motherboard but the Sound Blaster Cinema 2 seems to be more software oriented than hardware but not sure to be honest. It could work but the quality wont be the same as a Sound Blaster Z.
> 
> Also, whats your budget?




Budget was £1500 for everything but I'm at £1950 already lol so don't want to buy an x7 unless it's way better than a sbz. So best option is sbz > schiit vali > q701 ? That would be ideal since I already have the vali and q701s


----------



## rudyae86

yt-mreleven1181 said:


> Budget was £1500 for everything but I'm at £1950 already lol so don't want to buy an x7 unless it's way better than a sbz. So best option is sbz > schiit vali > q701 ? That would be ideal since I already have the vali and q701s


 
 well the X7 is better than the SB Z in terms of quality of sound, not by a huge margin but a more noticeable margin.
  
 But you should be good with an SB Z and Vali though I should say that in this case, I wouldnt recommend double amping. You should buy an optical Modi so you can send the SB X signal through the SB Z optical out into the Modi Optical in, which then is connected to the Vali and your headphones. By doing this, you will get a better and cleaner sound while still getting the SB X surround through your headphones


----------



## YT-MrEleven1181

rudyae86 said:


> well the X7 is better than the SB Z in terms of quality of sound, not by a huge margin but a more noticeable margin.
> 
> But you should be good with an SB Z and Vali though I should say that in this case, I wouldnt recommend double amping. You should buy an optical Modi so you can send the SB X signal through the SB Z optical out into the Modi Optical in, which then is connected to the Vali and your headphones. By doing this, you will get a better and cleaner sound while still getting the SB X surround through your headphones



Ok I think I get it so sbz >modi optical> schiit vali>q701 and I'm all set ?
Also if I was to go with the x7 is that all I would need or would I still need the sbz ?


----------



## Evshrug

yt-mreleven1181 said:


> Ok I think I get it so sbz >modi optical> schiit vali>q701 and I'm all set ?
> Also if I was to go with the x7 is that all I would need or would I still need the sbz ?



SB Z or SB Omni should be practically the same at optical output, so I'd say whichever is cheaper.

The DACs built into those aren't bad, so I'd disagree with Rudy and say connecting the Vali to the headphone outs should be fine/better than the Mixamp setup you already use. You could always start SB>Vali>Q701 to start off with and buy an optical DAC later if you want, see if you can hear a difference. The DAC in the Optical Modi (1st gen) and Omni sound extremely similar through headphones.

The X7 basically serves as Sound Processor, DAC, and Amp, so you wouldn't need the Vali at all in that setup (unless you wanted to for flavor). That said, the X7 also has a ton of inputs, so you could feasibly use it instead of the Mixamp with your console too. You choose! It was on Massdrop for a week at $300, not sure if the drop ended yesterday...


----------



## YT-MrEleven1181

evshrug said:


> SB Z or SB Omni should be practically the same at optical output, so I'd say whichever is cheaper.
> 
> The DACs built into those aren't bad, so I'd disagree with Rudy and say connecting the Vali to the headphone outs should be fine/better than the Mixamp setup you already use. You could always start SB>Vali>Q701 to start off with and buy an optical DAC later if you want, see if you can hear a difference. The DAC in the Optical Modi (1st gen) and Omni sound extremely similar through headphones.
> 
> The X7 basically serves as Sound Processor, DAC, and Amp, so you wouldn't need the Vali at all in that setup (unless you wanted to for flavor). That said, the X7 also has a ton of inputs, so you could feasibly use it instead of the Mixamp with your console too. You choose! It was on Massdrop for a week at $300, not sure if the drop ended yesterday...




Yea I think I'll start of with the sound blaster z > vali > q701 and see how I go.

 I'm selling my ps4 plus mixamp so wouldn't get the use of x7 on PC and console.


----------



## YT-MrEleven1181

Just been looking at x7 I thought they were £400 for some reason there £280 on Amazon, I just going to order 1. So do I still need the sound blaster z sound card or will the onboard audio from my msi gaming 5 motherboard be ok ? I have no experience with PC sound at all.


----------



## rudyae86

evshrug said:


> SB Z or SB Omni should be practically the same at optical output, so I'd say whichever is cheaper.
> 
> The DACs built into those aren't bad, so I'd disagree with Rudy and say connecting the Vali to the headphone outs should be fine/better than the Mixamp setup you already use. You could always start SB>Vali>Q701 to start off with and buy an optical DAC later if you want, see if you can hear a difference. The DAC in the Optical Modi (1st gen) and Omni sound extremely similar through headphones.
> 
> The X7 basically serves as Sound Processor, DAC, and Amp, so you wouldn't need the Vali at all in that setup (unless you wanted to for flavor). That said, the X7 also has a ton of inputs, so you could feasibly use it instead of the Mixamp with your console too. You choose! It was on Massdrop for a week at $300, not sure if the drop ended yesterday...


 
 Well I didnt say they are bad Evs, what I meant to say to not double amp since that can sometimes bring in some not so lovely stuff into the sound...sometimes. As you said before, modi DAC ~ SB Z DAC. They should practically be the same, Im just trying to avoid him doing double amping, but I mean if he does not care about double amping, thats fine for him. I have issues double amping, hence thats why I prefer not to double amp. I guess its preference


----------



## rudyae86

yt-mreleven1181 said:


> Just been looking at x7 I thought they were £400 for some reason there £280 on Amazon, I just going to order 1. So do I still need the sound blaster z sound card or will the onboard audio from my msi gaming 5 motherboard be ok ? I have no experience with PC sound at all.


 
 Honestly, like I said, your motherboards sound is probably poo comapred to dedicated sound cards. Even if it has creatives software, its just software and Im not sure but i think your motherboard still uses realtek audio chipset.
  
 With the X7 you dont need an SB Z anymore. X7 is all you need. The X7 is run through USB for PC and optical for consoles and should be better than your mix amp and your onboard audio.


----------



## YT-MrEleven1181

rudyae86 said:


> Honestly, like I said, your motherboards sound is probably poo comapred to dedicated sound cards. Even if it has creatives software, its just software and Im not sure but i think your motherboard still uses realtek audio chipset.
> 
> With the X7 you dont need an SB Z anymore. X7 is all you need. The X7 is run through USB for PC and optical for consoles and should be better than your mix amp and your onboard audio.




Ok sounds good and the x7 will be good enough on its own ?


----------



## rudyae86

yt-mreleven1181 said:


> Ok sounds good and the x7 will be good enough on its own ?


 
 From what I have read, yes.
  
 I had the SB Z at one point and like the quality. The problem was that the amp that my SB Z had was defective and returned it. Right now I only have an Asus xonar DG which does dolby headphone and its okay but I do like the SB Z better. I would expect better from the X7 on its own.
  
 I do plan on getting an X7 later on this year, as soon as I have more money lol.
  
 But if you want to get the X7 and offset the cost, sell your Astro Mix amp. You wont need it once you have the X7.
  
 Also it should pair well with your AKGs since the X7 matches quite well with its warmer sound signature.


----------



## oncdoc

Is there a sound card in the alienware Area 51 R2?  I noticed I have Sound Blaster Recon3DI installed.  Is that an actual sound card or is it integrated sound?  If so, what type of headphones will it support? hd650? 
  
I have an x7 creative but did not open it yet, since I may already have a decent sound card or integrated sound in my desktop?
  
Anyone know? thanks.


----------



## rudyae86

oncdoc said:


> Is there a sound card in the alienware Area 51 R2?  I noticed I have Sound Blaster Recon3DI installed.  Is that an actual sound card or is it integrated sound?  If so, what type of headphones will it support? hd650?
> 
> I have an x7 creative but did not open it yet, since I may already have a decent sound card or integrated sound in my desktop?
> 
> Anyone know? thanks.


 
 its probably software based and uses the same realtek sound chip. Im not sure but from what I have seen, alot of motherboards do that. But the X7 will be better than any on board audio. What motherboard does the Alienware Area 51 R2 have? And honestly, this is my opinion but why buy an alienware? I use to think they were cool but when I started learning about PCs and actually building one myself....Alienware are overpriced for what they offer


----------



## oncdoc

Thank you for your post.
  
 I cant tell what motherboard it is from the specs.
  
 The reason I bought this as opposed to building is time constraints and deal on a refurb I got the below for* $3081.81*  after 100 additional credit negotiated with Dell. It included 3 year complete accidental protection as well. The onboard audio sounds good, but I wish I knew what the deal with the sound chip type?
  

Alienware Area 51-R2 Windows 8.1 Pro$3,181.811$3,181.8104/30/2015 
*WR1CC*Alienware Area 51-R2*211VX*Triple 12GB GDDR5 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 SLI*28HF0*USB Optical 2-Button/Wheel Mouse*2RV8X*Service Software*33RD8*Documentation*359TY*Placemat*3E476*Certified Refurbished*3Y2JX*Windows 8.1 Pro (64Bit)*4F9D1*Label*51RVX*CyberLink Media Suite*61F2H*Windows 8.1 64BIT*65XVX*Alienware Multi-Media Keyboard*6HT1P*Label*76YNW*Shipping Material*85Y47*Software*8C2D1*Office 365 - 1 Month Trial (Internet access required to install & activate)*95TPJ*32GB Quad Channel DDR4 at 2133MHz*CRMYP*Software*CRV33*Intel 7260AC Dual-Band 2x2 802.11 ac WiFi + Bluetooth 4.0*DHC1J*Information*GV0CP*Wave Systems Software*HT7M4*Centauri CPU heatsink*JJJ92*Power Cord*K74D7*Screw*M3GVR*Office 365 - 1 Month Trial (Internet access required to install & activate)*M4PJ3*Software*NG6N4*Software*P6XPR*Software*PNNWT*Shipping Material*PYXX4*Screw*RXPC8*Information*T2X8C*Windows 8.1 Pro*TJXMD*4TB 6kRPM SATA 6Gb/s Storage*TPFWY*Alienware(TM) 1500 Watt Multi-GPU Approved Power Supply*TT72D*Software*V5G7F*Slot-Load Dual Layer Blu-ray Combo (BR-ROM, DVD+/-RW, CD-RW)*XMJ7F*Processor: Intel Core 5th Generation i7-5930K Processor (6-cores, 15MB Cache, Overclocked up to 3.9 GHz w/ Turbo Boost)*XP3GF*256 GB Mobility Solid State Drive
  AL Area 51 R2 : 3 Year Protection Plan (In-Home Service after Remote Diagnosis + Accidental Damage Service)


----------



## rudyae86

Only way you could probably tell what kind of chip it carries is by checking the playback devices, then clicking on your audio source and click on properties and in there, there should be more details of what is running.
  
 As for time constraints......thats just an excuse lol.
  
 I could have easily built something similar for about 2k to 2.5k and brand new. Paying that much for a refurb, even if it has 3 year warranty on it. Although that PC will last quite a while though. I mean, if you have money to spare, then by all means you can buy what you want but many people at overclock.net would be shaking their heads.
  
 But yeah, check your playback devices and click on properties on the device that is being used for audio.
  
 EDIT: I like how they say on one of their PCs it says 2x gtx 970s give you 8GB of GDDR5 Ram when in reality, its still 4GB total, even if you use 2 video cards. SMH I wonder if you can sue them for false advertisement.


----------



## robster2

Hi all
  
 I have a Creative Titanium HD sound card connected to Audio-Technica AD900 headphones. I am interested in purchasing a headphone amp/dac to compliment my desktop setup for virtual surround sound in games. My question is when selecting a headphone amp/dac for the purpose of virtual surround sound should I be looking at models of headphone dac/amps which excel in the soundstage department? Will a dac/amp with superior soundstage be more effective at positional cues than a dac/amp weaker in the soundstage department? I will be using the dac/amp together with Creative X-Fi CMSS-3D if I can connect it all properly.


----------



## NinjaMilez

robster2 said:


> Hi all
> 
> I have a Creative Titanium HD sound card connected to Audio-Technica AD900 headphones. I am interested in purchasing a headphone amp/dac to compliment my desktop setup for virtual surround sound in games. My question is when selecting a headphone amp/dac for the purpose of virtual surround sound should I be looking at models of headphone dac/amps which excel in the soundstage department? Will a dac/amp with superior soundstage be more effective at positional cues than a dac/amp weaker in the soundstage department? I will be using the dac/amp together with Creative X-Fi CMSS-3D if I can connect it all properly.


 
  
 I use Sennheiser HD 700 headphones with a Schiit Asgard 2 amp and Bifrost Uber DAC and a X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) and have to say they work incredibly well with CMSS-3D. The main game I use it with is Halo: Combat Evolved and, Unreal Tournament 2004, and Painkiller. I can pinpoint location of an enemy from the sound of their footsteps extremely well. I can even position myself so my gun is pointing right at them as I'm going around a corner, it honestly feels a VERY unfair advantage. 
  
 I wouldn't worry about amps and DACs with better soundstage. The soundstage that you experience mainly comes from the headphones. You're going to get good positional audio with CMSS-3D with nearly any above-average setup. It will be amplified as you spend more, to a certain point. 
  
 A tip with CMSS-3D if you're gaming competitively. I turn the sound-quality and sound variety all the way down to minimum in the in-game audio settings when I play multiplayer. When you do this you will only hear the important sounds in the game such as gunshots, explosions and footsteps. Effects, such as ambient sounds are removed, much less aural distractions that way.
  
 I bought the HD 700s mainly for their sound-stage, and they work brilliantly. The Schiit equipment I got because of their value and performance (and because the Bifrost has an optical-in for the sound-card).


----------



## mindbomb

ninjamilez said:


> I use Sennheiser HD 700 headphones with a Schiit Asgard 2 amp and Bifrost Uber DAC and a X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) and have to say they work incredibly well with CMSS-3D. The main game I use it with is Halo: Combat Evolved and, Unreal Tournament 2004, and Painkiller.


 
  
 Just want to add that for older win-xp era games, you can benefit from using creative alchemy or asus GX mode and enabling game options for hardware acceleration. I know tf2 and counterstrike source (possibly cs go too) have a command you can enter - legacy surround something or other.


----------



## liraop

Hi guys,
  
 I tried to read this thread entirely and some others related to my doubt but I really can't make up my mind. 
  
 I got the Schiit M2U combo and Fidelio X2. I think it's end of the road for a few years for me. 
 Modi 2 U has USB, optical and SPDIF inputs. I use USB for plain stereo and I was thinking about using one of the others two inputs with a sound card for immersive movie and gaming audio. 
 Notice that I don't play competitively so.. I would like to have a immersive sound with ambience and nice sounding, not thin nor treble-ish. I don't care much about positional clues. 
 I rater feel and enjoy the experience. 
  
 Have anyone been using something like this with satisfiable results? =)


----------



## genclaymore

I have sent plenty of sound cards to external dacs thru optical for years. As long you config the sound card's Virtual headphone up correctly as in setting windows and games to 5.1 with the Sound card panel to headphones. Dolby Headphone,CMSS3D and SBX surround will work very well. Just remember to unselected Full range in the check boxes when you setting the speakers to 5.1 in windows sound options  in control panel so they will work correctly.


----------



## liraop

genclaymore said:


> I have sent plenty of sound cards to external dacs thru optical for years. As long you config the sound card's Virtual headphone up correctly as in setting windows and games to 5.1 with the Sound card panel to headphones. Dolby Headphone,CMSS3D and SBX surround will work very well. Just remember to unselected Full range in the check boxes when you setting the speakers to 5.1 in windows sound options  in control panel so they will work correctly.


 
  
 Thanks for the reply. 
 And uh.. since the datais being sent to the Modi2U, the real processing of the sound will be made from it , correct ?
 So I'm bypassing the PCIe card, which leads to not necessarily buy the best soundcard in market but one with the desired 'effects' w/o losing much SQ.... right ?


----------



## genclaymore

liraop said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> And uh.. since the datais being sent to the Modi2U, the real processing of the sound will be made from it , correct ?
> So I'm bypassing the PCIe card, which leads to not necessarily buy the best soundcard in market but one with the desired 'effects' w/o losing much SQ.... right ?


 
 Yea all you doing is sending the virtual headphone tech to your external dac.


----------



## liraop

Bought a Xonar DX =] 
 Now it's wait until I'm back to Brazil and then check the sound out of my desktop. Thanks for all info.


----------



## TheDson

Sup Guys? How do you find *superlux hd668b *for gaming (I feel like im into them), practically for CS:GO (nice positioning needed). Is it good itself, do I need some extra sound card or virtual surround device? I found it pretty inresting cuz it is huge what is good for my ears, cuz some headphones hurt a lot and my headphone which I use - Panasonic RP-HTF295 was hurting for a while, but then I adjusted to it.
  
And what do you think about *Gemini-HRS1000? **Takstar Monitor Hi-fi Headphone HI 2050?*
  
 Can you please also say if you can this: can I adjust to  Aurora Live (if superlux is not fine) cuz they seem to be pretty narrow?
  
 Thank you for your feedback.


----------



## fluidz

genclaymore said:


> I have sent plenty of sound cards to external dacs thru optical for years. As long you config the sound card's Virtual headphone up correctly as in setting windows and games to 5.1 with the Sound card panel to headphones. Dolby Headphone,CMSS3D and SBX surround will work very well. *Just remember to unselected Full range in the check boxes when you setting the speakers to 5.1 in windows sound options  in control panel so they will work correctly.*


 
  
 I've been using full range turned on and ticked for all speakers (including sub) whilst using 5.1 in windows sound settings and headphones + cmss3d selected in creatives console, for years, so i've been doing it wrong? 
  
 What's the difference?


----------



## TheDson

Update: Choosing between Creative Aurvana Live!, Gemini-HRS1000 or Sennheiser 558.


----------



## rudyae86

thedson said:


> Update: Choosing between Creative Aurvana Live!, Gemini-HRS1000 or Sennheiser 558.


 
 I would say in terms of Competitive gaming HD558>CAL
  
 In terms of Immersive gaming CAL>HD558
  
 I dont know about the Gemini, never tried them or read about them.
  
 But honestly, you cant go wrong with either the CAL or 558. It really depends what kind of gaming you do or what  you want from it.


----------



## TheDson

Up: Thanks everyone, I decided in favor of 558


----------



## damien5119

rudyae86 said:


> Honestly, like I said, your motherboards sound is probably poo comapred to dedicated sound cards. Even if it has creatives software, its just software and Im not sure but i think your motherboard still uses realtek audio chipset.
> 
> With the X7 you dont need an SB Z anymore. X7 is all you need. The X7 is run through USB for PC and optical for consoles and should be better than your mix amp and your onboard audio.


 
 MSI gaming 5 onboard is almost on par with my asus dx..i cant tell the difference most of the time really. onbaord is really good these days


----------



## motorwayne

I'm getting a small buzz in my Titanium HD  when I come out of sleep...think this might of happened after I cooked a pair of opamps I was swapping..not sure. Sound card works properly otherwise.
  
 I'm a gamer, mostly ARMA and I've sort of gotten itchy feet and want something new.
  
 Is there a better option than my current X-fi HD going into an 02 amp into headphones?
  
 Cheers
  
 P.S I like CMSS for positional dynamics...or is the latest stuff better now?


----------



## TranceDude

Has anybody here managed to get their Titanium HD fully working on Windows 10? I've tried Daniel K's unofficial support pack 3.3 and 3.4, but neither work for me. They install everything and all seems to be working just fine without errors, there's just no sound.


----------



## pauldgroot

trancedude said:


> Has anybody here managed to get their Titanium HD fully working on Windows 10? I've tried Daniel K's unofficial support pack 3.3 and 3.4, but neither work for me. They install everything and all seems to be working just fine without errors, there's just no sound.




Official windows 10 support should come in October. 

Source: http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=126331


----------



## NamelessPFG

The aforementioned Support Pack is version 3.5 now, try that. Seems to work fine with my Titanium HD, at any rate; it's producing sound, control panels work, etc. I just need to install all the games again.
  
 Yeah, I'm finally getting Windows 10 all set up on my desktop. Been so busy that I haven't had time to do it 'til now, alongside some setbacks with backing up my Windows install properly.
  


motorwayne said:


> I'm getting a small buzz in my Titanium HD  when I come out of sleep...think this might of happened after I cooked a pair of opamps I was swapping..not sure. Sound card works properly otherwise.
> 
> I'm a gamer, mostly ARMA and I've sort of gotten itchy feet and want something new.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If you like CMSS-3D, stick with the Titanium HD. You're not going to get anything with it now since it's all SBX Pro Surround at this point, which I don't necessarily feel sounds better from a positioning standpoint. That's just my ears, though.
  
 As for the amp, that's always matched to the headphones, not the other way around. Pick the headphones you want first, then pick the amp to drive 'em if you need it.


----------



## Luckbad

@motorwayne
  
 I have the X-Fi Titanium HD and the new ZxR. It's harder to figure out the ZxR at first for positional audio, but once you figure it out, it's pretty much exactly as good. The sound quality is essentially identical as well, so you honestly won't be upgrading anything from the X-Fi Titanium HD to the ZxR unless you really want a volume knob/inputs (they _are _convenient) or need super clean inputs for recording/measurements with the dB Pro.
  
 Also, for going to an O2, I find the Titanium HD to be excellent for this. I just run RCAs to the O2 so it only hits the DAC (and can still use all of the software features) before going to the O2.


----------



## TranceDude

namelesspfg said:


> The aforementioned Support Pack is version 3.5 now, try that. Seems to work fine with my Titanium HD, at any rate; it's producing sound, control panels work, etc. I just need to install all the games again.
> 
> Yeah, I'm finally getting Windows 10 all set up on my desktop. Been so busy that I haven't had time to do it 'til now, alongside some setbacks with backing up my Windows install properly.


 
  
 Weird, I got no sound with those drivers. Everything seemed to work fine, just no sound.
  
 Anyway, most official W10 Creative drivers are out. The only way I got it working was installing these, then installing Daniel's support pack to get Console launcher etc. working. Daniel said version 3.7 will include Titanium HD support.
  
 Everything works fine now, I finally have good positioning back. You guys have no idea what the 'normal' gamers have to go through with default sound, it's terrible...


----------



## GoldenboyXD

... delete


----------



## Compact

Hello people.
  
 Does anyone here own X-FI xtreme gamer soundcard? Can it do CMSS for headphones through optical/flexijack? Or do I need X-Fi Titanium non HD, which I've read can do it for sure?
  
 I mainly want a soundcard for older games, which support fully 3D sound and EAX with hardware accelerated soundcards. There are some games, that can use OpenAL soft and it works quite well, but most can't, so I want a cheap soundcard for these features. Xtreme gamer is cheaper than X-FI titanium where I live, so if it can do CMSS through optical, it would be perfect. 
  
 Thank you.


----------



## liraop

Hello friends!
 I've finally installed an Asus Xonar DX on my computer and I can say that it's pretty good.
 My idea is using the DSP over optical to a schiit stack but I'm still fixing some power issues on my room and I'm afraid of using it yet.
 However, while playing Metro 2033 Redux I could test some of the pre-set dps settings. Any of you recommend one to use ? Any particular setting to look for to improve immersion ? Thanks!


----------



## Luckbad

Shameless self-plug. Any of you people who hang out in this fine thread get an extra discount on my listings for X-Fi Titanium HD or Sound Blaster ZxR. I've gotta offload everything I can for financial reasons.


----------



## NamelessPFG

compact said:


> Hello people.
> 
> Does anyone here own X-FI xtreme gamer soundcard? Can it do CMSS for headphones through optical/flexijack? Or do I need X-Fi Titanium non HD, which I've read can do it for sure?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I haven't tested that card myself (never owned one), but I see no reason for it not to work like on any other X-Fi card, so long as you have the Flexijack adapter for S/PDIF-out.
  
 Just enable "Play Stereo Mix using Digital Output" and set everything else up like usual.
  


trancedude said:


> Weird, I got no sound with those drivers. Everything seemed to work fine, just no sound.
> 
> Anyway, most official W10 Creative drivers are out. The only way I got it working was installing these, then installing Daniel's support pack to get Console launcher etc. working. Daniel said version 3.7 will include Titanium HD support.
> 
> Everything works fine now, I finally have good positioning back. You guys have no idea what the 'normal' gamers have to go through with default sound, it's terrible...


 
  
 Those drivers worked fine for me, so I don't know what to say. Maybe I'm just lucky with these things.
  


liraop said:


> Hello friends!
> I've finally installed an Asus Xonar DX on my computer and I can say that it's pretty good.
> My idea is using the DSP over optical to a schiit stack but I'm still fixing some power issues on my room and I'm afraid of using it yet.
> However, while playing Metro 2033 Redux I could test some of the pre-set dps settings. Any of you recommend one to use ? Any particular setting to look for to improve immersion ? Thanks!


 
  
 I don't have the Redux version, so I can't help you all that much.
  
 All I can suggest is to try them all out for yourself and decide with your own two ears.


----------



## Tic-Tac

Hey guys I need to ask here  as I'm PC gamer only, I'm looking for some headphones for immersive experience when I'm watching movies or play games. Just to be clear, I'm not a competitive gamer(from FPS genre mostly BF4 and just casual), I like playing various genres and love watching movies and listening to music(electronica, rock, hiphop/rap).

Just looking for some full IMMERSIVE experience mostly in movies and games (good bass and treble but not bad highs either, just emphasis on bass and treble) and it's sooo hard to find a good headphones. I wonder is it even possible...

Prefer straight cable, removable, mic not needed.

Of course they must be closed because I'dont want make any noise during my nighttime sessions.


----------



## AUserName501

tic-tac said:


> Hey guys I need to ask here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Give a budget.
  
 Immersive audio is meant to sound realistic. Elevated bass and treble is not that. Sounds like you want something fun which is fine.
  
 Beyerdynamic DT 770 match what you want well.


----------



## Tic-Tac

Yeah, "Fun" will be the word. Well, all in all I've tried DT770 250Ohm and they are just not that fun. Any other suggestion please?


----------



## rudyae86

tic-tac said:


> Yeah, "Fun" will be the word. Well, all in all I've tried DT770 250Ohm and they are just not that fun. Any other suggestion please?


 
 Werent you in the other thread? we were waiting for a response.....just saying.


----------



## Tic-Tac

Yeah I am but I haven't found anything yet...


----------



## rudyae86

tic-tac said:


> Yeah I am but I haven't found anything yet...




Have you read MLE guide?


----------



## liraop

tic-tac said:


> Hey guys I need to ask here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Hi! I'm was in the same situation than you! 
 I have a DT770 32ohm and it's good for its price. probably a high impedance model will be even better (most likely the 80ohm one -- if I'm not mistaken they have better bass). 
 My X2 is open but is superb. Really no complains, only good times.

 Good luck!


----------



## Tic-Tac

rudyae86 said:


> Have you read MLE guide?


 
  
 Yeah and many other threads as well 
  
  


liraop said:


> Hi! I'm was in the same situation than you!
> I have a DT770 32ohm and it's good for its price. probably a high impedance model will be even better (most likely the 80ohm one -- if I'm not mistaken they have better bass).
> My X2 is open but is superb. Really no complains, only good times.
> 
> Good luck!


 
  
 Thanks for the answer! 
  
 Well my options are :
  
*Beyerdynamic Custom One Pro Plu*s 
*Skullcandy PLYR 1* (it's wireless and I love wireless) - bit worried about the quality of these, would love if someone share their experience
*Sony MDR-1R/1A* - still wondering how is that bass done here
  
 .....and I don't know, so many choices and so little right ones...


----------



## rudyae86

tic-tac said:


> Yeah and many other threads as well
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Go with the Custome One Pro. You will like them for their immersive sound while still retaining positional accuracy. You can also go with he the CAL which is also cheaper and sound good


----------



## Tic-Tac

CAL 1 or CAL 2? CAL 2 is a better looking one tbh. 
  
 I would buy anything up to 200euro IF the BASS is punchy and live but done right. Well, all I'm looking is that WOW effect and fun headphones. I'm not working in studio and I really don't need analytical headphones, I'm not a professional


----------



## AUserName501

tic-tac said:


> CAL 1 or CAL 2? CAL 2 is a better looking one tbh.
> 
> I would buy anything up to 200euro IF the BASS is punchy and live but done right. Well, all I'm looking is that WOW effect and fun headphones. I'm not working in studio and I really don't need analytical headphones, I'm not a professional


 
  
 Sony MDR-1A
  
 Oppo PM-3
  
 NAD HP50
  
 PSB M4U1
  
 Beyerdynamic DT1770 (No idea if this is good. Too new to say.)
  
 MrSpeakers Mad Dog / Mad Dog Pro / Alpha Dog
  
 Bower & Wilkins P7


----------



## Tic-Tac

Great suggestions, thanks! BUT most of them are over my budget of 200€.

Any opinion on these : Audio-Technica ATH-M50XDG?


----------



## genclaymore

tic-tac said:


> Hey guys I need to ask here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 If you can still find them, I found the ultrasone HFI-780 to do a good job in the base department and they did a good job in games as well.Tho I found the Audio Technica A900X to do a very good job with gaming.I don't recall how the A900X sounded but I still recall how the Ultrasone HFI-780 was. Since it was the reason why I moved away from the HFI-780 as I got tired of the club style bass. I don't think I you mentioned it unless you did on a couple of pages back. What are you plugging these into.


----------



## rudyae86

tic-tac said:


> CAL 1 or CAL 2? CAL 2 is a better looking one tbh.
> 
> I would buy anything up to 200euro IF the BASS is punchy and live but done right. Well, all I'm looking is that WOW effect and fun headphones. I'm not working in studio and I really don't need analytical headphones, I'm not a professional




CAL 1 is supposed to sound better than CAL 2.

Like I said, you can try the Custom One Pro. It has 4 switches that alter the low end or Bass, if you want more bass that is.

The M50X is more meant for Music but works okay for games, sounds way to upfront for me and kind of claustrophobic for gaming.

I was going to say that the TH600 from Fostex would seal the deal but that's over your budget

The Shure 1540 might be what you are looking for.


----------



## Tic-Tac

I would go for COP but I'm afraid that the cord is too short, just saw it online and it's about 1.2m in length...What
  
 @genclaymore Currently on my onboard audio but later on Fiio E10K


----------



## rudyae86

So I got a question regarding my vmoda boom pro mic. Im using it with my X2 and Im using an Asus Xonar DG with optical out going to a Schiit Modi 2 Uber and to my Cayin C5. Now, obviously the Vmoda mic uses a y splitter to seperate the Mic and Stereo inputs of which the Stereo input goes into the C5 and the Mic is connected to an extension 3.5mm cable to my Asus Xonar DG for Mic purposes.
  
 But.....for some reason, when the mic is connected to my Xonar DG, I can hear a buzz in my headphones....its noticeable when there is nothing playing through my headphones and everything else is on and a bit noticeable when I am playing something...
  
 However, when I disconnect the Mic from the Xonar DG, the buzz is gone. Any reason why this is happening or a fix I can do?
  
 I was thinking of getting a Snowball mic and call it a day but I dont want to spend another 50 bucks right now and I rather much prefer using my vmoda mic which does the job really well in terms of keeping it simple. TIA


----------



## Diamondpact

Can you guys recommend me the best soundcard for 3d positional audio for my future headphones? I am planning on getting the akg k7XX headphones as they have amazing soundstage,positional accuracy, and fun factor which will connect to my schiit magni2 uber/modi2uber stack through toslinq. My z906 5.1 speakers will connect directly to the card. My main priority are my headphones for gaming.
  
 I mainly plan to use the card for gaming as ill go stereo for music. I mainly play multiplayer fps games competitively, but sometimes play other immersive games as well.
  
 which sound card with optical out will support the most and best features for competitive fps? Such as cmss 3d, SBX. Dolby HP, TruStudio
  
 Also, ive heard mixed reviews. Which is better? CMSS 3D or TruStudio Pro surround?


----------



## genclaymore

A Sound blaster Z you should be able to find a couple used on amazon or ebay. Then you go into the advance tab in the creative panel and check the send stereo mix to optical.
  
 Then config windows to 5.1 and the creative panel to headphones and just enable SBX surround and all of that will be sent to your modi2 uber optical and you be set.


----------



## 3rdAmigo

Hello everyone.
  
 I have been posting on Mad Lust Envies thread about some headphones I am trying out. I bought the soundblaster E5 and I am pretty disappointed to say the least. I am playing Battlefeld 4 and regardless of what settings I use in the SBX control panel I dont get convincing positional audio that improves on the innate headphone positional audio (using just the AMP). I currently have the game-one, AKG K702 and AKG K612 Pro. The Positional sound with the 702 is great but when I try to use the SBX features like surround all it does is make the sound louder and adds some nicer effects. Positional audio remains the same or slightly worse in that surround is still there...but it becomes more vague.
  
 The users on Mad Lust Envies thread have mentioned that I should be able to choose surround in Windows 8.1 but this is not possible. Only stereo speakers are an option in the windows control menu (e.g accessed via right clicking 'speaker' icon and configuring speakers. Apparently people have been using the surround feature in windows but I am not able to. I have latest drivers and also latest firmware installed. Is the E5 really so bad? Maybe I should just stick ith the Razer Kraken headset...i dont want to but 
  
 Then I found this thread on the Creative forums which appears to contradict what people are telling me in Mad Lust Envies thread:
  
http://forums.creative.com/archive/index.php?t-717470.html
  
 Here the tech support confirms that the E5 is only seen as a stereo device by windows.
  
 I am going insane now!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I need to know that I have configured it correctly as I have these headphones to test and they have to go back soon. I may have wasted the last 3 days testing these headsets with the E5. Perhaps the Z would have been a better choice, but I wanted to eliminate EMI risk 
  
 Thank you in advance for your advice!!


----------



## genclaymore

It's not the software settings, its the simple fact that the E5 only have stereo as a selection in windows. That's why SBX isn't working that well because it needs to down-mix the 5.1 audio to the headphones. Without that option all you doing is using stereo and then applying the SBX to the audio which doesn't work that well at all.  The sound blaster Z SBX works because of the option of setting 5.1 in games and windows and then headphones in the SBZ control panel as  it  down-mixing the 5.1 audio and then applying SBX surround which why it works really well in the first place. The E5 is at fault here for only having stereo as a option sadly plenty of external creative devices are design like this such as the X-Fi HD usb.  You only way around this is to move to a sound blaster Z.  But the guide is correct, Without those settings SBX wont be doing it job and would be sub-par without those settings. It also applies to other types of Virtual headphone software.


----------



## abeerguy

Hey everyone,

 I've been reading through a lot of this particular guide and Mad Lust Envy's guide and had a question that I hope can be resolved easily by you guys.  Between the three cans:

BeyerDynamics DT990 (600 ohm)
Fostex TH-X00 (Currently on MassDrop, most comparisons are to an improved version of the D7000s)
Philips Fidelio X2
  
 Which one would be most suitable / provide the best audio quality for gaming?  I don't need them to be bleeding edge on the competitive scene, though I would prefer them to work well for positioning FPS's like CS:GO and Battlefield, etc.  And I do enjoy immersion for games like Witcher 3 that have sweeping soundscapes at times.  I figured these three offered the best tradeoff between positional accuracy and immersive capabilities.  I'm currently in the MassDrop for the DT990s but was considering dropping out to hop over to the TH-X00s since they seem to be so highly regarded already.
  
 I would plan on buying an appropriate DAC and AMP setup according to whichever cans you guys can help me select.  Thanks a lot, and I hope to be more involved in these forums as I get better listening experience!


----------



## liraop

abeerguy said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I've been reading through a lot of this particular guide and Mad Lust Envy's guide and had a question that I hope can be resolved easily by you guys.  Between the three cans:
> 
> ...


 

 If you pick X2, you won't need to buy an amp. Although I recommend buying a good soundcard. I strongly recommend it! X2 is open but stills very bassy and "natural" sounding.
 I'm currently switching from Xonar DX optical and Modi2 USB for gaming and music, respectively, as source for Magni2u. Very satisfied.


----------



## SoAmusing777

Pretty excited to be getting a Titanium HD again (first one I never got to use because I returned the system) to play those games in all their glory with 3D audio. I've never experienced it, so it'll be just like starting from scratch.


----------



## 3rdAmigo

Hi everyone thought you might like to know that the Sound Blaster G5 is 'out' now:
  
 UK website:

http://http://uk.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blasterx-g5?utm_source=eDialog&utm_medium=Mailer&utm_campaign=Mailer_uk_101215
  
 Lets hope someone does a review ASAP!
  
 Cmon people.....


----------



## rudyae86

3rdamigo said:


> Hi everyone thought you might like to know that the Sound Blaster G5 is 'out' now:
> 
> UK website:
> 
> ...




Link doesn't seem to work.... I'm in the US however...


----------



## 3rdAmigo

Sorry! link fixed
  
 Yes doesnt appear to be on the US website. I'm sure it wont be long before it is.


----------



## speakerlao

Can anyone explain how to test surroundsound on headphones?
  
 Do I just enable the 5.1 channel setup in Realtek control panel and then match the setting in-game? Or do I set Realtek to headphones with "Headphone Virtuilization" enabled, then set game to Headphones/Stero?


----------



## cdsa35000

speakerlao said:


> Can anyone explain how to test surroundsound on headphones?
> 
> Do I just enable the 5.1 channel setup in Realtek control panel and then match the setting in-game? Or do I set Realtek to headphones with "Headphone Virtuilization" enabled, then set game to Headphones/Stero?



Glooge yourself "surround test file" etc.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-theater-computers/1823297-where-can-i-find-5-1-surround-test-mp4.html

You'll need mpc homecinema app to play the divers mediafiles:
http://www.free-codecs.com/download/media_player_classic_home_cinema.htm
---
Is your Realtek onboard a laptop/PC?
-Anyway to get surround on hp, the Realtek need the hp plugged-in the output and the Windows Speakers Output config need to be set to STEREO-full range.
-Only then the option Dolby Headphone or Headphone Virtualization will show up, if set to 5.1 this option changed to Dolby Prologic or Speaker Virtualization.

-*Ingame the speakeroutput must be set to 5.1/7.1*, with *Realtek hp surround enabled* will downmix the multichannels sound into *hp stereo virtual surround*.
-If ingame have own hp virtual surroundmix, than disable Realtek hp surround, if ingame is hp stereo than its only just stereo 2.0 without any surround processing.


----------



## SoAmusing777

If anyone wants to suggest some games for me to play that have actual 3d audio, please do.


----------



## BlueNinja0

rudyae86 said:


> So I got a question regarding my vmoda boom pro mic. Im using it with my X2 and Im using an Asus Xonar DG with optical out going to a Schiit Modi 2 Uber and to my Cayin C5. Now, obviously the Vmoda mic uses a y splitter to seperate the Mic and Stereo inputs of which the Stereo input goes into the C5 and the Mic is connected to an extension 3.5mm cable to my Asus Xonar DG for Mic purposes.
> 
> But.....for some reason, when the mic is connected to my Xonar DG, I can hear a buzz in my headphones....its noticeable when there is nothing playing through my headphones and everything else is on and a bit noticeable when I am playing something...
> 
> ...


 

 I've got the exact same problem as you. I have a similar setup as you, same X2, same vmoda, but through an O2+ODAC. What I think we're experiencing is a ground loop. Vmoda is using the same ground cable for both the mic and the headphone cables. Your Cayin C5's ground might have a slightly different potential than your Asus Xonar, and that's why you only hear the buzz when it's connected. I wish I had a solution but I ended up buying the AndLion Modmic which uses it's own separate cable (so, separate ground) and I'm very satisfied with it. The extra cable is a hassle but it's more practical because I just attach it when I actually need the mic and 90% it's not attached.
 The thing is I think Vmoda thought 95% of their clients would be using both the headphone and mic cables on the same sound card, which would not present ground loops.
  
 Now, I pondered for a moment cutting the tip of the Vmoda cable and see if the ground cable is separate and only joined at the Y-splitter. With some soldering we could simply add 2 separate jacks and solve the ground loop problem. But if the ground is joined on the actual microphone section there's nothing we can do about it. I'm not going to try it because I need the Vmoda for other purposes and I already got the Antlion Modmic


----------



## Jari-Bombari

Hello guys i got some questions.
  
 I am thinking of buying a Audio tehcnica ATH-AD700 or 900 which are really good for competitive gaming. At the moment i have a Sennheiser HD558 which also isn't that bad. But my questions are, Are the audio tech really that much better and would a 7.1 surround sound amp/soundcard make a huge difference for competitive gaming? I currently have a MSI gs60 laptop where i play al my games on. Does this laptop already have a good soundcard or should i buy a AMP because you can't replace the soundcard in a laptop.
  
 I hope someone can help me,
  
 thanks.


----------



## BlueNinja0

Anyone knows if the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 (http://software.store.creative.com/p/software/sound-blaster-x-fi-mb3) supports the ODAC? I'm trying to get virtual surround sound through my ODAC but I don't see solutions and Creative doesn't have a trial version so that I can try the application out.
  
 I've tried Razer Surround before but it adds a lot of delay to the sound so it's unusable for me.


----------



## digitalninja

blueninja0 said:


> Anyone knows if the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 (http://software.store.creative.com/p/software/sound-blaster-x-fi-mb3) supports the ODAC? I'm trying to get virtual surround sound through my ODAC but I don't see solutions and Creative doesn't have a trial version so that I can try the application out.
> 
> I've tried Razer Surround before but it adds a lot of delay to the sound so it's unusable for me.




It does work with the ODAC, however, do keep in mind that you might not be able to receive surround sound from certain applications (Games mainly in my experience) since the ODAC can only be configured for stereo in the Windows sound options.

In the end I just bypassed the ODAC portion of the O2+ODAC and just routed my PC's audio from the onboard Realtek output and plugged that into the O2+ODAC's analog line-in. The Realtek output sounded fine to me when I A/B-ed between it and the ODAC, so I don't think there was too much quality loss. Anyways, after hooking up the Realtek to the O2+ODAC I just make sure that both the virtual audio device from the Creative software and the Realtek output are set to surround sound using the Windows sound configurator.


----------



## BlueNinja0

digitalninja said:


> It does work with the ODAC, however, do keep in mind that you might not be able to receive surround sound from certain applications (Games mainly in my experience) since the ODAC can only be configured for stereo in the Windows sound options.
> 
> In the end I just bypassed the ODAC portion of the O2+ODAC and just routed my PC's audio from the onboard Realtek output and plugged that into the O2+ODAC's analog line-in. The Realtek output sounded fine to me when I A/B-ed between it and the ODAC, so I don't think there was too much quality loss. Anyways, after hooking up the Realtek to the O2+ODAC I just make sure that both the virtual audio device from the Creative software and the Realtek output are set to surround sound using the Windows sound configurator.


 
 That's strange. I might be talking nonsense since I haven't seen how the application works, but I assume it introduces a virtual audio device on the Windows playback devices and that device would be set as the default output device and at 7.1 mode. Shouldn't the games ignore the ODAC and just assume the virtual audio device is the actual output device and output 7.1 sound? Have you tried this? What do you use as the default output device?
  
 My workaround was to use my ancient PCI X-Fi XtremeMusic card from 2005 just to be able to install the Creative drivers and use the CMSS 3D feature and forward the "What U Hear" recording device sound to the ODAC, which works. But I would rather not depend on a 10 year old PCI card just to be able to install a software feature that doesn't touch the actual sound card at all. It's just there plugged in... probably consuming a few watts for nothing. And the Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 software probably has a more up to date HRTF too.


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## Schuzzfluzzle

Hi All,
  
 I'm looking to upgrade my sound system on my pc. I'm currently using a Realtek ALC 1150 and Logitech 5.1 speakers. I'm also using Corsair Vengeance 1500 v1 headset. I'm looking to upgrade to a dedicated card (budget of 200+ Euros) and a FPS oriented headset budget of (200-300 Euros). If adding €100 or so to that budget is a good idea I can do that. My primary requirement is that the headset is very comfortable with the largest possible ear pads as I have very large ears, I also have a big head so that needs to be allowed for .  Positional audio is important as I play mostly FPS games. Secondary to this is audio quality - It would be nice to be able have good quality audio for non FPS games, but this is not as important. As for a microphone as long as its reasonable quality that's fine for me. I'm 50/50 about closed back vs open back - I like the idea of open back for long term comfort. I would be mostly interested in wired headsets as well although the Creative Sound Blaster Recon 3D Omega looks interesting however I am wary as to the real world performance of wireless audio (not that I'm an expert).
 Any help would be appreciated.


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## genclaymore

I would suggest the sound blaster ZXR and for a headphone I would suggest the Audio Technica A900X and the modmic which you can stick on the side of the headphone. I have used both the A900X and the K702 for gaming and both did a very good job, The A900X is closed back while the K702 is open back but there are other options too depending on the type of sound that your after. the ZXR has a better headphone amp ic then the sound blaster z which why I mentioned it over the Z. SBX surround works very well for gaming which what i been using on my sbz to send over to my external dac.The mod mic will let you add a mic to any headphones, so you can have a pair of very good headphones while having a mic without using a lower quality headset with a mic on it.
  
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-Blaster-Audiophile-Performance-Headphone/dp/B00B1R2AFE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451234948&sr=8-1&keywords=Sound+blaster+zxr 149 euro
  
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Audio-Technica-ATHA900X-Hi-Fi-Headphones/dp/B006V386UG/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451234815&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=Audio+techinca+A900X 130 euro or the
 http://www.amazon.co.uk/AKG-K702-Open-Back-Reference-Headphones/dp/B001RCD2DW/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1451235063&sr=1-1&keywords=AKG+k702 144 euro
  
 http://www.modmic.com/


----------



## Schuzzfluzzle

genclaymore said:


> I would suggest the sound blaster ZXR and for a headphone I would suggest the Audio Technica A900X and the modmic which you can stick on the side of the headphone. I have used both the A900X and the K702 for gaming and both did a very good job, The A900X is closed back while the K702 is open back but there are other options too depending on the type of sound that your after. the ZXR has a better headphone amp ic then the sound blaster z which why I mentioned it over the Z. SBX surround works very well for gaming which what i been using on my sbz to send over to my external dac.The mod mic will let you add a mic to any headphones, so you can have a pair of very good headphones while having a mic without using a lower quality headset with a mic on it.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-Blaster-Audiophile-Performance-Headphone/dp/B00B1R2AFE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451234948&sr=8-1&keywords=Sound+blaster+zxr 149 euro
> 
> ...


 
 Hi,
 Thanks for the reply. I looked into your suggestions, however I see the Audio-Technica=ATHA900X IS £334.32 on Amazon.(making it 445 euro with the sterling exchange rate) Is this correct, as its much more expensive then the AKG headset. I notice the Omni-Directional Mod Mic is sold out will I be hampered by just using the Unidirectional version?


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## Aithos

I know I'm "new" here (I've been lurking for years because it's dangerous for my wallet to post on sites like this), but I registered because I've seen a few of these kinds of threads about "competitive" gaming recently.  I have played several games at a highly competitive level so I believe I can offer some insight and help people out that are interested in competitive gaming, particularly PC FPS games.
  
 First and foremost, the number one thing you need to consider in your audio setup is what your end goal is.  Simple right?  Not exactly, let's say you want to be a professional CS:GO player and you've got the talent to make it happen.  You go out and get the coolest, fanciest audio setup money can buy and it gives you an advantage over the competition...
  
 That's good right?  Well no, actually it's not in this context.  See, if you manage to get noticed and picked up by a top online team and start attending LAN tournaments what you're quickly going to find is you *can't use* your fancy audio setup.  Not only because they don't allow external hardware, but because the LAN environment means you need noise blocking earmuffs just to be able to hear the game sound/communications at all.  That's why you see guys wearing three pieces of equipment (earbuds, noise blockers, headset to use as a mic). 
  
 So if you're used to using the fancy setup you're going to have a bad time when put in situations where you can't, which is why you don't see pros sporting fancy audio setups.  When gaming events were smaller you'd frequently see pros wearing HD555 cans or something similar, that's basically stopped because blocking outside noise is significantly more important than quality audio.  The bottom line is that if you have any desire to compete in LAN events you need to be able to play with garbage sound, and buying or using anything fancy will hurt your chances.
  
 -----------------------------
  
 Alright, so let's assume that your goal isn't to play professionally, because honestly it's extremely unlikely that anyone reading this will ever reach that level.  The other thing you need to consider is whether or not you intend to play in a league/team environment or if you are just going to play casually with friends.  Keep in mind that the latter doesn't mean you don't take it seriously or that you don't care, it just means that you have more flexibility in choices because of the level of competition you're going to face.
  
 If you think you may want to play competitively in a league/team environment then your focus should purely be on audio quality.  Your priority should be on getting a solid pair of HD headphones and a good amp/dac, then you set the audio setting in-game to "headphones" and call it a day.  I'll get some flak for saying this I'm sure, but "virtual surround" is absolute garbage for competitive gaming and should be avoided at all costs.
  
 Think about what virtual surround is doing for a second, it's primary function is IMMERSION and not purely positional.  That means when a bullet is shot past you it will register first from the direction it came from and THEN the direction it traveled... that's good right?  No, at least not for competitive gaming.  It's bad because the only piece of information you need is where it came from, anything else that causes even a moment of extra noise can mask other sounds that are critical to winning a round/match. 
  
 So that bullet you heard whiz past might obscure the sound of an enemy player hitting the ground after dropping off a ledge, or picking up a gun around a corner from you.  That kind of information is often what separates good players from average ones, the ability to isolate and process that into good decisions. 
  
 The other factor?  Put simply, good players don't make noise where you will hear it.  It is far more important to have clear and precise audio so that you hear those little sounds like the examples I mentioned above because those are the only sounds they can't mask in certain situations.  In a competitive environment you aren't going to have people running around so that footsteps echo halfway across the map, that's lesson #1 if you want to be a good CS:GO player: walk everywhere when you have time.
  
 -----------------------------
  
 With that being said: if you intend to play casually you can do whatever you want.  You want to play around with virtual surround?  Go ahead, it's not tied to your equipment and you can always turn it off, the same things that make a good pair of headphones for gaming (soundstage, clarity, accuracy, etc) are also going to be better for virtual surround.  So why the big rant above?  Because people need to understand the mindset that's best for competition and stop putting so much emphasis on the hardware. 
  
 There are *very* few instances where equipment will actually make a difference in your ability to improve (don't confuse that with performance), and off the top of my head the only one I'd single out is your monitor.  Which if you're interested in learning about I'm happy to assist, just shoot me a PM or create a thread in the appropriate area and I can explain further.
  
 People in the gaming community these days are like lost sheep, they complain about "smurfs" and "hackers" and blame their gear/settings/teammates for their performance.  The fact of the matter is that these games aren't great audio sources, it isn't like listening to the highest quality audio recording of a live orchestra where you can pick out the subtle differences with the right setup.  It's primitive, it's fast, and it's primary purpose is to convey information and not feeling.
  
 If you want to play a single player AAA game - go ahead and enable and configure 3D and immerse yourself, at that point you're playing for the experience just like you would if you were listening to a concert or watching a movie.  Competitive gaming is a different beast, you're in it to WIN and winning is a lot more about your mindset and your ability than your gear setup.  I *love* my HD650's, and I definitely hear more clearly with them when I'm gaming so it helps me in that respect...but it isn't because of better positional sound or virtual surround or anything else.  It's just that they are better headphones that produce better sound and with my experience it makes it easier to differentiate sounds and what they mean.
  
 -----------------------------
  
 Sorry for the long post, I've just seen a lot of recommendations floating around from people who are really caught up in the equipment hype and it reminds me of the golf forums I frequent.  A lot of people talking about what kind of clubs you should play based on handicap and how this or that will make you better, it's all rubbish.  What makes you better at golf is talent, focus, determination, proper instruction and good practice habits.  The same is true when it comes to competitive gaming, don't get too caught up chasing some miracle solution to make you a better gamer because it doesn't exist...
  
 Disclaimer: these are entirely my opinions, I don't claim to know everything and you are welcome to disagree.  I often use strong language as a means of conveying emphasis and you shouldn't take everything I say literally, if you do we're going to have a bad time.


----------



## BlueNinja0

aithos said:


>


 
  
 Many good points there when talking about virtual surround reducing some sound cues. But I also want to point out that in many game audio engines the only way to distinguish a sound from in front of you VS from the back is through virtual surround. Furthermore, in old engines that can still take advantage of DirectSound or OpenAL (such as the Source engine), you get the benefit of distinguishing if a sound comes from above or bellow you. Now it certainly depends on the game being played, but that extra info is certainly handy.


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## Aithos

blueninja0 said:


> Many good points there when talking about virtual surround reducing some sound cues. But I also want to point out that in many game audio engines the only way to distinguish a sound from in front of you VS from the back is through virtual surround. Furthermore, in old engines that can still take advantage of DirectSound or OpenAL (such as the Source engine), you get the benefit of distinguishing if a sound comes from above or bellow you. Now it certainly depends on the game being played, but that extra info is certainly handy.


 
  
 I appreciate you taking the time to offer your input, but I have to disagree with what you're saying about the only way to distinguish front vs rear (or above/below) sound being virtual surround sound.  That just isn't true, whether you are using a standard "headset" setting or virtual surround sound the equipment and physical way you hear are the same.  The difference with virtual surround sound on a very basic level (and grossly oversimplified) is that it's digital processing to trick you into hearing *additional* spacial detail that the source provides on it's own, not to create sounds that weren't there before.  
  
 Games (FPS in particular) already generate spacial information and that's been true since the very beginning of competitive gaming.  Are you really going to tell me that no one has been able to hear front/rear sound for the past 15 years?  That's a little ridiculous.  I'll grant you that virtual surround is more detailed and convincing, that's what I was talking about with the immersion aspect in my last post.  The point I was making is that in a *competitive* game immersion doesn't matter, all that matters is getting the information as quickly and simply as possible and the headphone setting is vastly superior to virtual surround in that regard.
  
 Aside from that...honestly front/rear sound is meaningless in an FPS game because you should NEVER be in a situation where it matters.  If an enemy is behind you then you've already made a positional error and chances are it's their bullets killing you that alerts you to their presence, and if not then it's because they made a mistake in stealth or positioning themselves (which you shouldn't count on).  If they are in front of you then you already have a better means of identifying them: visual.  On top of that straight open confrontations are undesirable and go completely against every fundamental of positioning and angles in an FPS game.
  
 Put simply: you should always be attacking or holding on an angle where your crosshair will be in position to shoot them before they shoot you.  That means a corner where any auditory information you may get (if you're in range of it) will ALWAYS be coming from a side and never directly in front.  Additionally, when you're playing a fast-paced FPS game you should never be sitting stationary for a lengthy period of time.  When you're moving your crosshair should always be pre-positioned on the positions/angles where you are likely to engage enemies, that typically means moving it in a direction (never straight) which will shift any sounds and give you precise positional information as you move.  
  
 Honestly, most of positional audio in games is knowing your environments and understanding what the basic information is telling you.  That's a talent and it's no different than someone's ability to hear and reproduce certain pitches when singing, not everyone is good at positional audio in real life.  If someone started shooting off fire-crackers in a random direction from you most people would look around wildly, almost no one would just turn directly to them.  Having more immersive audio just isn't very important but people get caught up in thinking that something is holding them back because admitting your weaknesses as a competitive person is difficult.  That's why so many people look for excuses when they lose instead of saying "I just wasn't good enough", and it's why I made my post...because having the proper mindset is the key to success and part of that is understanding your limitations and being practical in your expectations.  
  
 I fully understand the desire to have the best setup possible, I just don't see virtual surround sound and positional audio as being the key focus areas for competitive gaming...it's neat if you want the "experience" but that isn't what competitive gaming is about, which is why I discussed intentions and goals


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## BlueNinja0

aithos said:


> Games (FPS in particular) already generate spacial information and that's been true since the very beginning of competitive gaming.  Are you really going to tell me that no one has been able to hear front/rear sound for the past 15 years?  That's a little ridiculous.  I'll grant you that virtual surround is more detailed and convincing, that's what I was talking about with the immersion aspect in my last post.  The point I was making is that in a *competitive* game immersion doesn't matter, all that matters is getting the information as quickly and simply as possible and the headphone setting is vastly superior to virtual surround in that regard.


 
  
 I was not speaking strictly about competitive positioning. And I understand Virtual Surround is a trick and sound positioning is just a constructed brain perception. That is not what I was discussing.
 You seem to generalize that all FPS game's headphone settings is superior. That is incorrect. Even though some games indeed offer some front/back cues with that setting, that's certainly not the rule. Many games just use the headphone setting to compress the dynamic range of the sound output considering that headphones are of lesser capacity than speakers. Try a game like Battlefield 4 and set a sound to happen at the exact same distance in front of you, then behind you, and you'll hear no difference, no matter the sound setting. Same applies to vertical positioning. Some games do, others don't. It's not a rule and it depends on the audio engine used and if they have HRTF functions applied to the Headphone setting. Others just use a simple volume filter that lowers sounds from the back slightly, which obviously provides no positional cue.
  
 I'll not comment on the strategical aspect of sound you discussed because it's beyond what I wanted to point out and I usually don't play FPS competitively. Others might want to chime in.


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## Aithos

blueninja0 said:


> I was not speaking strictly about competitive positioning. And I understand Virtual Surround is a trick and sound positioning is just a constructed brain perception. That is not what I was discussing.
> You seem to generalize that all FPS game's headphone settings is superior. That is incorrect. Even though some games indeed offer some front/back cues with that setting, that's certainly not the rule. Many games just use the headphone setting to compress the dynamic range of the sound output considering that headphones are of lesser capacity than speakers. Try a game like Battlefield 4 and set a sound to happen at the exact same distance in front of you, then behind you, and you'll hear no difference, no matter the sound setting. Same applies to vertical positioning. Some games do, others don't. It's not a rule and it depends on the audio engine used and if they have HRTF functions applied to the Headphone setting. Others just use a simple volume filter that lowers sounds from the back slightly, which obviously provides no positional cue.
> 
> I'll not comment on the strategical aspect of sound you discussed because it's beyond what I wanted to point out and I usually don't play FPS competitively. Others might want to chime in.


 
  
 Well my entire post was specifically about competitive games, because that's what people are asking about.  I thought I pretty clearly said that if you want to play games for fun or casually then you can do what you want (I wasn't commenting on that), but if you want to play competitively then what I'm talking about applies because it's all fundamentals of competitive FPS games.
  
 I haven't played every FPS game out there but I've played several games in most of the "modern" style FPS games (CS, Battlefield, CoD, etc) and I've never noticed a single one where you couldn't tell if something was ahead or behind you.  I'm pretty sensitive to audio and I'm confident in saying that I would have noticed and it would have driven me nuts if that was the case.  
  
 I'm not saying that the quality isn't lower, it may be, I'm just saying that there isn't a popular FPS game in the last 10 years that hasn't had basic positional audio even without surround sound.  Don't forget, if you're playing with surround sound and you turn it to a headphone setting that it's going to be so different you may have a hard time interpreting the positional information.  
  
 I don't know, maybe I'm just a lot more tuned in to positional audio in games than most people.  I've been playing competitive online FPS games since 1997 so I've got a pretty absurd number of hours into it compared to most gamers, I play both CS:GO and LoL with people who weren't born when I started playing online games...makes me feel old 
  
 edit: also, I forgot to mention...many games have config settings (console settings) that allow you to tweak the audio settings.  Source engine games included, so if people aren't using a proper config file for their setup that makes a TREMENDOUS difference.  The settings are NOT in the menu and they are not very intuitive, but you can manually adjust how the game handles positional audio.


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## BlueNinja0

aithos said:


> I haven't played every FPS game out there but I've played several games in most of the "modern" style FPS games (CS, Battlefield, CoD, etc) and I've never noticed a single one where you couldn't tell if something was ahead or behind you.  I'm pretty sensitive to audio and I'm confident in saying that I would have noticed and it would have driven me nuts if that was the case.
> 
> I'm not saying that the quality isn't lower, it may be, I'm just saying that there isn't a popular FPS game in the last 10 years that hasn't had basic positional audio even without surround sound.  Don't forget, if you're playing with surround sound and you turn it to a headphone setting that it's going to be so different you may have a hard time interpreting the positional information.


 
  
 I insist that it is not true that most FPS games have front/back up/down positional audio just with the standard Heaphones setting. I remember Left 4 Dead 2 for example, which uses the same audio engine as CS:GO (OpenAL or Miles Sound System), did not have any sound cue with regards to elevation or front/back. You can read some discussion about the engines here: http://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/256kgn/can_valve_do_anything_about_csgos_positional/
 I also went to the trouble of recording a clip of BF4 with the Headphones setting so that you can listen that there is no vertical or front/back cues (skip to 1:35, didn't bother to crop it, sorry):

 Ignore the slight left/right misalignment as my mouse flick was not pixel-perfect.
  
 It is possible that you're so used to the maps and enemy behavior that you can deduce where they are with the help of the sound because you're so used to it. There's also a subconscious reflect that happens both in real life as in FPS games of turning your head in-game just so slightly that you can distinguish if a sound is coming from the front/back up/down (left vs right ear). But it is incorrect to state these games have the HRTF functions implemented in game. As you can see from that video as example, it does not.
 I don't have CS:GO installed but if you insist that there is HRTF in the CS:GO Headphones setting, I would like to see you post a clip like I did. Not saying you're lying but I'm genuinely curious.


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## Aithos

Ok, a couple things.
  
 1) I agree that there is a subtle shift between directly in front and turning your head slightly to distinguish sounds, and I never stated that all games implement HRTF.  What I said is that all the games include basic positional audio and that I've never played a game where I couldn't tell if something was in front or behind me.  
  
 2) I had no problem distinguishing when the plane was in front of you vs behind, there was a noticeable difference in the volume and it was a pretty clear shift from the top portion of the headphones to the rear.  It was just as easy to distinguish front/rear vs left right based on the balance of sound, when it was in front you could hear from both ears and when it wasn't it was skewed to whichever side you faced.  The one thing that was a little less obvious was behind and to the side, a plane flying isn't nearly as noticeable as gunfire or footsteps so I think that's more environmental than a positional issue but that's just my opinion.
  
 The point I've been making the entire time isn't that there is no difference between using virtual surround and headphones, and it isn't that all games have the same types of audio (positional or otherwise).  The point is that the *ONLY* thing that matter in competitive gaming is information and whether you can process it clearly and quickly.  
  
 I agree there is a reflex of turning your head to distinguish positional audio, that's because our ears aren't on the front of our heads they are on the side.  It's completely natural to do that and in competitive games you are going to be doing that to watch different positions ANYWAY.  In any situation where you are relying on audio for information (no visual) there is no penalty for turning your head, in fact you should be doing that because enemies can approach from multiple angles at the same time.
  
 I'm not trying to be a pain, I just want you to understand the fundamental mindset difference between what I'm talking about and what you're talking about.  You're looking at it from the perspective of an audio guy and casual gamer.  You *care* about the quality of the sound and the accuracy and the immersion.  
  
 I'm looking at it from the perspective of a competitive gamer.  All I care about is whether I can figure out where to shoot, and the answer is overwhelmingly yes even without virtual surround and so there are no positives to it that outweigh the negatives it brings.  That's why I said that *specifically* for competitive gaming you should forget virtual surround and stick with a basic headphone setting.  Leave the fancy stuff for music, movies and single player games...
  
 edit: obviously I care about sound quality and all that stuff too, just not when it comes to competitive gaming where my only concern is winning.


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## BlueNinja0

aithos said:


> I never stated that all games implement HRTF.  What I said is that all the games include basic positional audio and that I've never played a game where I couldn't tell if something was in front or behind me.


 
 You cannot tell if someone is in front or behind you with sound alone without HRTF. It is literally impossible. A difference in sound from the front vs back is called HRTF.
  


aithos said:


> a plane flying


 
 Sorry, I knew I should've cropped the video, but I wrote in my post to skip to 1:35. That's the testing part, with the wreckage and the fire crackling. I'm trying to do the most scientific test the game allows me to do without wasting hours on it to prove you this game has no HRTF. The best method is to test it on a static object. Listen to the 1:35 onwards part. If you tell me there is a difference between front and back on the fire crackling I can export the sound wave to a visualizer and show you they're the same.


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## Aithos

blueninja0 said:


> You cannot tell if someone is in front or behind you with sound alone without HRTF. It is literally impossible. A difference in sound from the front vs back is called HRTF.
> 
> Sorry, I knew I should've cropped the video, but I wrote in my post to skip to 1:35. That's the testing part, with the wreckage and the fire crackling. I'm trying to do the most scientific test the game allows me to do without wasting hours on it to prove you this game has no HRTF. The best method is to test it on a static object. Listen to the 1:35 onwards part. If you tell me there is a difference between front and back on the fire crackling I can export the sound wave to a visualizer and show you they're the same.


 
  
 Ok, I still don't think you get what I'm driving at so let me make this very simple:
  
 I don't care about HRTF, I don't care about "scientific", the ONLY thing I care about is what the practical application is and whether you can tell where someone is.  As I said in my very first post - there is basically never a situation where you will be relying on audio with someone directly in front or behind you, so it literally doesn't matter if there is HRTF from a gameplay perspective.  You will always have the information you need to know where people are without it purely based on left/right, what you can see, and what the map (and minimap) looks like.
  
 Literally everything in FPS is based on angles, in your video the plane at the beginning is a much more meaningful test of positional audio than the thing with the fire, think about it...what possible situation would you be in where someone is directly in front of you that you can't see AND you can't turn for even a couple milliseconds to get an audio clue?  There isn't one.  Again, I'm ONLY talking about for competitive gaming performance, not for audio quality or experience.


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## BlueNinja0

aithos said:


> Ok, I still don't think you get what I'm driving at so let me make this very simple:
> 
> I don't care about HRTF, I don't care about "scientific", the ONLY thing I care about is what the practical application is and whether you can tell where someone is.  As I said in my very first post - there is basically never a situation where you will be relying on audio with someone directly in front or behind you, so it literally doesn't matter if there is HRTF from a gameplay perspective.  You will always have the information you need to know where people are without it purely based on left/right, what you can see, and what the map (and minimap) looks like.
> 
> Literally everything in FPS is based on angles, in your video the plane at the beginning is a much more meaningful test of positional audio than the thing with the fire, think about it...what possible situation would you be in where someone is directly in front of you that you can't see AND you can't turn for even a couple milliseconds to get an audio clue?  There isn't one.  Again, I'm ONLY talking about for competitive gaming performance, not for audio quality or experience.


 
  
 I'm not talking about audio quality, experience, competitiveness or anything in between. You stated most FPS games (including Battlefield) include HRTF in the headphone settings, which is false, and I didn't want to let that pass so that others are not misinformed. That is all.
 I understand your competitive view on not relying on HRTF. It is your opinion.


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## halcyon

Has anybody tried the* Powercolor Devil HDX Soun*d card based on the *CMedia CM8888 *chip. It has the standard CMedia *Xear 3D (EX)*. It'd be interesting to hear how it compares in 3D multi-channel sound headphone virtualization to the other offering like SBX Studio Pro. It'd be interesting to hear how it compares in 3D sound positioning accuracy.


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## Trojita

sniperczar said:


> I rewrote the steps into an actual guide. Crosspost from the MLE thread:
> 
> Here's how to do the handoff of CMSS processed output *completely in software*:
> Before following this checklist, make sure your current audio device is fully configured for CMSS (Windows configure speakers wizard is done and set to a surround setup, Creative Console speakers set to headphones, CMSS-3D is enabled, Crystalizer is disabled, "Disable Sound Blaster enhancements" under the Sound Blaster tab of your default audio device's properties is unchecked). I like unchecking the sub in the Windows wizard here to create a virtual 5.0 rather than a virtual 5.1 because I think it may help tame the overbearing bass some of you were talking about on the 770 80 ohms. The Beyers are already mashing together the bass output from the other 5 virtual channels into a pair of very bass-capable headphones, do you really need a virtual sub as well? Also, as we all know, subwoofer bass position is something your brain can't pinpoint, so I don't see why you'd want lots of it in your pinpoint accurate virtual surround. I think I remember hearing a noticeable difference with this changed in my limited A-B testing with a ripped BD of Evangellion 1.11 (the last battle scene has explosions and technobabbling jumping ALL over every channel when I listen with my physical 5.1 Acoustic Research HC6, so far it's by far the best test of virtual surround I've tried yet), but I wish I had another pair of Beyers to do a real A-B and not rely on my terrible memory/imagination.
> ...


 
 So the above guide will enable me to use the X-FI Titanium's CMSS 3d audio processing outputted to an external DAC that will take the all digital signal, process itself, and then send it to an attached amp which sends it to headphones. Anyone here do that? How's the difference in audio quality? Was thinking about doing this and getting Schiit DAC&AMP's or the Grace m9XX.


----------



## BlueNinja0

trojita said:


> So the above guide will enable me to use the X-FI Titanium's CMSS 3d audio processing outputted to an external DAC that will take the all digital signal, process itself, and then send it to an attached amp which sends it to headphones. Anyone here do that? How's the difference in audio quality? Was thinking about doing this and getting Schiit DAC&AMP's or the Grace m9XX.


 
  
 I do it with my old PCI X-Fi XtremeMusic and it works perfectly. The sound quality is exactly the same as if you were using the sound card itself, to my ears (I recommend you configure all devices involved to the same sample rate to avoid Windows having to re-sample the sound, possibly degrading quality or increasing the latency). The only slight change you might notice is a bit of latency. I don't know if it's caused by the processing or by the routing of the sound to the external DAC, but it's only a slight difference. I'm planning to do a test myself and post it on this thread when I get the time: http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield-4-technical-discussion/5855-improving-bf4-s-positional-audio-with-profsave-profile/index14.html#post308859
  
 I wish I had a way for it to work without needing to attach the actual sound card in my mobo because realistically it's there doing absolutely nothing. It's just there for the Creative drivers to work, but all the processing is done in software and the card is just consuming power and gathering dust, but oh well.


----------



## Senes

Are we ok to say that :
 Soundblaster Xfi MB3 ( http://software.store.creative.com/p/software/sound-blaster-x-fi-mb3 ) ==> Schiit Bifrost optical ==> stax amp ==> SR-507

 Will allow me to profit from the "5.1 emulated surround" ?

 Also, do you other ways to get "surround" for gaming with a DAC like that ?


----------



## BlueNinja0

senes said:


> Are we ok to say that :
> Soundblaster Xfi MB3 ( http://software.store.creative.com/p/software/sound-blaster-x-fi-mb3 ) ==> Schiit Bifrost optical ==> stax amp ==> SR-507
> 
> Will allow me to profit from the "5.1 emulated surround" ?
> ...


 
  
 Digitalninja answered to my post with some info that might be relevant to you.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/593050/the-nameless-guide-to-pc-gaming-audio-with-binaural-headphone-surround-sound/3465#post_12184705
 I don't know if the Schiit allows for 5.1 configuration, but if it does, it should work. Please post back your findings. I'm also interested in alternatives.


----------



## Senes

Well, I will only be able to test this next month so... (no money to buy MB3 x) )

 However, I do think that if we go through optical and not USB we can get surround in our DAC

 Because with USB device we need news drivers for windows that will surpass Creative drivers
 And with optical device we do not need news drivers, so every "processing" to the sound can be made, then emitted by the optical output then converted to analog by the DAC

 Sorry for the english; i'm freaking sleepy right now


----------



## BlueNinja0

senes said:


> Well, I will only be able to test this next month so... (no money to buy MB3 x) )
> 
> However, I do think that if we go through optical and not USB we can get surround in our DAC
> 
> ...


 
 Makes sense. Looking forward to your findings.


----------



## Kenjiwing

Hey guys... this thread is long as **** and I could really use some guidance. Id like to add Virtual Sound or 3d sound or whatever its called to my setup. The only FPS I play is CS:go so it needs to support that.
  
 I currently have
  
 nuforce dac (ill replace this with a soundcard) - Little Dot Mk III Amp -- Beyer Dynamics BT 880s and AKG K7XX  - Windows 10
  
 I know I will need to add a soundcard for this setup can you recommend one? I also just want to know if I would need anything else.

 Thanks!


----------



## BlueNinja0

kenjiwing said:


> Hey guys... this thread is long as **** and I could really use some guidance. Id like to add Virtual Sound or 3d sound or whatever its called to my setup. The only FPS I play is CS:go so it needs to support that.
> 
> I currently have
> 
> ...


 
  
 You won't necessarily need a soundcard if you use a software based Virtual Surround solution like the Creative MB3. I don't know if it will be compatible with your DAC though. We've discussed it a bit on the previous pages. Check it out.
 I have an ODAC and unfortunately I think it's not compatible because the ODAC can't be configured to 5.1 mode.


----------



## st0neh

aithos said:


> I'm not saying that the quality isn't lower, it may be, I'm just saying that there isn't a popular FPS game in the last 10 years that hasn't had basic positional audio even without surround sound.  Don't forget, if you're playing with surround sound and you turn it to a headphone setting that it's going to be so different you may have a hard time interpreting the positional information.


 
  
  
 Most games when set to headphone/stereo output will output nothing other than flat 2 channel audio.


----------



## Aithos

st0neh said:


> Most games when set to headphone/stereo output will output nothing other than flat 2 channel audio.




I'm not talking about most games, I'm talking specifically about CSGO which has separate headphone and 2 channel speaker options. Also, if you're using headphones you're only getting two channels regardless of what your setting is. It's called "virtual" surround because it's using crosstalk to "simulate" having more than two channels. It isn't more accurate, it isn't better positional information and it doesn't really matter whether it has actual positional audio (vertical) or not. At the end of the day you're making a trade-off:

Audio accuracy and speed for immersion. If that makes the game more enjoyable for you: awesome, go for it. However from a competitive standpoint (which was the point of the thread) it brings more downside than upside and that makes it bad. It is just as easy to determine positioning without surround as with in games like CSGO and without it you also get the best separation of sound that makes isolating enemies in multiple locations and picking up individual soft sounds significantly easier.

For anyone who plays CSGO (by far the biggest competitive FPS) and cares about being competitive I strongly recommend against using surround sound, it will only hinder your ability to improve.


----------



## dmbr

aithos said:


> I'm not talking about most games, I'm talking specifically about CSGO which has separate headphone and 2 channel speaker options. Also, if you're using headphones you're only getting two channels regardless of what your setting is. It's called "virtual" surround because it's using crosstalk to "simulate" having more than two channels. It isn't more accurate, it isn't better positional information and it doesn't really matter whether it has actual positional audio (vertical) or not. At the end of the day you're making a trade-off:
> 
> Audio accuracy and speed for immersion. If that makes the game more enjoyable for you: awesome, go for it. However from a competitive standpoint (which was the point of the thread) it brings more downside than upside and that makes it bad. It is just as easy to determine positioning without surround as with in games like CSGO and without it you also get the best separation of sound that makes isolating enemies in multiple locations and picking up individual soft sounds significantly easier.
> 
> For anyone who plays CSGO (by far the biggest competitive FPS) and cares about being competitive I strongly recommend against using surround sound, it will only hinder your ability to improve.


 I can't speak to playing CS:GO, but its whacky cousin tf2 (which does indeed have a competitive community) does see benefits from surround sound. 

Mostly, headphone virtual surround allows one to more accurately place the exact location of a (distant) sound on one of the game's often relatively expansive maps. 

With good virtual surround I can maintain a much more precise mental picture of what is happening where at all times--since I main the "Spy" class, which largely relies on staying out of site, this is particularly helpful.

With TF2's "headphone mode" I can distinctly tell if a sound is left or right, in front of or behind me, but that's about it. With Razer Surround or Creative's SB surround suite, I can have a sense of whether something is located at my "6 o'clock" or my "8 o'clock"; the farther away a sound is, the more helpful that refinement of placement is, of course.


----------



## Aithos

dmbr said:


> I can't speak to playing CS:GO, but its whacky cousin tf2 (which does indeed have a competitive community) does see benefits from surround sound.
> 
> Mostly, headphone virtual surround allows one to more accurately place the exact location of a (distant) sound on one of the game's often relatively expansive maps.
> 
> ...




I understand and I don't disagree that the immersion effect makes it easier to ascertain positional information. I just disagree that it's better or more precise, it's just different. If you go back and read my older posts the reason I'm against surround is because the crosstalk makes sounds "longer" and that muddies and hides other sounds. In CSGO (competitive play) you aren't given much sound information because unlike in casual or low rank MM people don't run around.

That makes it imperative that when you have an auditory warning that is subtle like a gun being picked up or someone dropping off a ledge that those brief pieces of information aren't lost because another sound masked it. I have no problem distinguishing where sounds are coming from and because of map knowledge you can precisely place people with ease using standard headphone sound. Again, I'm talking about actual competitive play here, like in a league setting and not just the "competitive" MM mode in game.

If you want the best edge for high level play then headphone setting with no surround is the best option. If you don't care or you enjoy the ease and immersion then by all means try it out. I have nothing against surround, I'm just competitive and I want the best chance to win and with my skill and experience it's without surround.


----------



## mindbomb

Virtual surround literally can gives you more positions with the audio than regular stereo. Mainly, front and back plane is given with virtual surround, while not possible with regular stereo, which is only left and right. For that reason, it is better competitively also. If you watch stereo cs go footage on twitch or youtube with your eyes closed, you'll notice that the positioning is terrible.


----------



## BlueNinja0

aithos said:


> Also, if you're using headphones you're only getting two channels regardless of what your setting is. It's called "virtual" surround because it's using crosstalk to "simulate" having more than two channels. It isn't more accurate, it isn't better positional information and it doesn't really matter whether it has actual positional audio (vertical) or not.


 
  
 It's called crossfeed. It's true crossfeed might muffle slightly some sound, but it definitely brings more positional information. When you're using a 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound system in the end you're also only getting two channels because you only have 2 ears but it definitely brings more positional information than just stereo speakers.


----------



## mindbomb

With stereo with a crossfeed, there is no more true positional audio over regular stereo; it is just more pleasant to listen to. With 5.1 or 7.1, since the channel layout tells you the geometry of the sounds, that allows for better positional audio whether from surround sound speakers or virtual surround sound headphones.


----------



## BlueNinja0

mindbomb said:


> With stereo with a crossfeed, there is no more true positional audio over regular stereo; it is just more pleasant to listen to. With 5.1 or 7.1, since the channel layout tells you the geometry of the sounds, that allows for better positional audio whether from surround sound speakers or virtual surround sound headphones.


 

 True. It does not bring info per se. I meant that as it comes bundled with the other HRTF.


----------



## Aithos

blueninja0 said:


> It's called crossfeed. It's true crossfeed might muffle slightly some sound, but it definitely brings more positional information. When you're using a 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound system in the end you're also only getting two channels because you only have 2 ears but it definitely brings more positional information than just stereo speakers.


 
  
 Isn't that nitpicking a bit?  Unless I'm mistaken crossfeed and crosstalk can be used interchangeably for the purposes of this discussion and you obviously knew what I meant 
  
 Besides, to nitpick you a bit - virtual surround sound doesn't bring more positional information, it brings more precise positional information, it's still coming from the same basic direction and the only real difference is whether you can easily distinguish 6 o'clock from 7 or 8 o'clock.  The entire point I've been trying to make is that it doesn't matter, at least not when you're specifically talking about a competitive FPS.  It would be different if you were talking about a movie or song and the enjoyment factor of the added immersion, but in the context of an FPS you have to turn around to get visual information in order to aim/shoot regardless of how precise the positional audio is.
  
 That's why I've been adamant about saying that for casual or "for fun" play it doesn't matter and you should do whatever you enjoy most, but for competitive play (ranked, team or league) you should be doing what gives you the quickest and simplest audio.  Which is hands down the headphones or 2 channel setting because crossfeed DOES create additional sound in either ear in order to provide the immersion and that can mask other soft but important sounds.  That kind of thing isn't very important in casual play but is tremendously important in competitive play.
  
  
 See, I think the problem here is that I view this discussion from a pretty rigidly defined set of conditions and most people who don't play competitively don't understand the difference, it's a lot like people who aren't low handicap golfers watching the PGA tour and failing to understand how much harder the conditions are on those courses and layouts.  To me competitive means you're playing ranked on a ladder, a third party site with ranking or on a team in a league environment.  That also means you're playing on a competitive map that was designed for 5v5 play, since every competitive FPS all the way back to Quake Team Fortress (the original, not the half-life remake) has been 5v5.
  
 Playing under those assumptions means that you MUST have a fundamental understanding of the maps, positions and crosshair placement (what we call angles).  Once you have those there is literally no situation you can be in where basic directional information isn't sufficient to determine what you should be doing.  Knowing an enemy is at 8 o'clock just isn't relevant under those circumstances because you know your position and based on map knowledge you can immediately and instinctively deduce their position and alter your angle/position using that information.
  
  
 It's completely different when you look at a casual game or mode, like a 24 player deathmatch or something.  At that point the extra information may be useful because the maps are much larger, you can't possibly cover all the entrances/exits and there may be multiple from the same direction.  That doesn't happen on a 5v5 map and I can give you countless examples with CSGO if necessary.  It all comes back to how YOU intend to play the game.
  
 If you want to play for fun and enjoy the experience: by all means, try surround sound and see if you like it.
  
 If you want to play to compete at the best of your ability and improve as a player: use headphones / stereo setting and forget surround sound.
  
 A lot of people think that audio will improve their game sense, it won't.  If you don't know what game sense is it's basically your instincts and ability to anticipate and outplay your enemies when you are in a clutch (outnumbered) situation.  Audio plays a big part in that because typically everyone is moving around using stealth (no sound) and a single audio cue can make the difference, however, that's why the muffling is such a detriment.  It is really easy to lose that kind of a situation (1v2 or worse) because one person shoots at you and the other gets a free crossfire shot on you from a second angle because you didn't hear the single audio cue due to the sound of the distraction fire.
  
 What really improves your game sense is just plain experience and high level analysis of professional play.  It's thousands of hours of experience in competition and building muscle memory so that you know on an instinctual level how people react in clutch situations.  How their positions/angles might change when it's 2v1 vs 5v5 or 1v1 and being able to exploit that information to your advantage.  People who are new to competitive play or lack experience think that players are making amazing plays because they somehow magically pre-aim using sound while spinning or flicking their crosshair and they think it's amazing reaction times.
  
 The truth is that it's none of those things.  Yes, they have an audio cue but they aren't aiming based on audio, they are aiming based on their experience and knowing exactly what the enemy HAS to be doing to make a certain sound from a certain direction on a certain map...it's the KNOWLEDGE that lets them make the play.  That and having a dialed in low sensitivity so that they know exactly how far to sweep the mouse to "flick" the crosshair a precise distance on the screen.  It's not great reactions, it's timing, experience and thousands of hours of muscle memory with dialed in settings. 
  
 Now I don't think I can explain it any further so unless someone has a specific question for me I'm going to bow out of the thread since I think I've already beaten this horse mostly to death.
  
 Thanks for reading and for maintaining a civil conversation, I very much appreciate when people can act like adults and not devolve to insults and flaming.


----------



## st0neh

aithos said:


> Besides, to nitpick you a bit - virtual surround sound doesn't bring more positional information, it brings more precise positional information, it's still coming from the same basic direction and the only real difference is whether you can easily distinguish 6 o'clock from 7 or 8 o'clock.  The entire point I've been trying to make is that it doesn't matter, at least not when you're specifically talking about a competitive FPS.  It would be different if you were talking about a movie or song and the enjoyment factor of the added immersion, but in the context of an FPS you have to turn around to get visual information in order to aim/shoot regardless of how precise the positional audio is.


 
  
  
 It does bring more positional information in most games though.
  
 You're feeding Dolby Headphone a 5.1+ input that actually contains positional audio instead of the 2 channel source you'll get from most games.
  
 The two aren't really comparable.
  
 The obvious exceptions are the few games like Battlefield that actually include their own HTRF option.


----------



## Amywalker730

My goodness this thread is long....
  
  
 I've been researching headphones for gaming (music and movies too, but to a lesser extent) over a few weeks and until today I had settled on the PM-3. Now I've been told by many people that the PM-3 is not good for gaming and I should look at other headphones. What are some things I should look for to determine good gaming headphones and is the $400 PM-3 really outdone by a $45 headset like the HD668B and those in the $250 range such as the PSB M4U and Meze 99?


----------



## rudyae86

amywalker730 said:


> My goodness this thread is long....
> 
> 
> I've been researching headphones for gaming (music and movies too, but to a lesser extent) over a few weeks and until today I had settled on the PM-3. Now I've been told by many people that the PM-3 is not good for gaming and I should look at other headphones. What are some things I should look for to determine good gaming headphones and is the $400 PM-3 really outdone by a $45 headset like the HD668B and those in the $250 range such as the PSB M4U and Meze 99?


 
 lol have your tried MLEs thread? Lots of info on headphones but if you ask me for a simple answer, Philips Fidelio X2, AKG K7XX and Sennhieser HD598 are probably the best all arounders or bang for buck headphones out there. I would say they are the most balanced headphones in the 100, 200 and 300 range. Its almost hard to go wrong with either of these headphones.


----------



## pocahontas

aithos said:


>


 
 Hi Aithos, what is your gaming audio setup?


----------



## Aithos

pocahontas said:


> Hi Aithos, what is your gaming audio setup?




I currently have two sets of headphones I use for gaming:

Sennheiser HD650 - for most games where audio isn't super important, I like the sound of these the best (big fan of the "Sennheiser" sound.

AKG K7XX - for games like CSGO where the audio has an impact on performance, the more neutral sound and larger soundstage makes it easier to distinguish subtle sounds and positional information.

I'm running both with a Grace Design M9XX amp/dac, which is a bit overkill for gaming but was purchased for all-around use including music (obviously). I do not run any kind of virtual surround and crossfeed is turned off on my unit.


----------



## pocahontas

aithos said:


> I currently have two sets of headphones I use for gaming:
> 
> Sennheiser HD650 - for most games where audio isn't super important, I like the sound of these the best (big fan of the "Sennheiser" sound.
> 
> ...


 

 Hello and thanks you for your response. Concerning the price "500dollars", yes i do think so. But i do have a question since you are a gamer, how to you compare the lastest (3y or less) motherboard audio part ?  alc1150? the capacity of running audiophile headphone like akg k702 701 712.... ?
 Thx you.


----------



## Aithos

pocahontas said:


> Hello and thanks you for your response. Concerning the price "500dollars", yes i do think so. But i do have a question since you are a gamer, how to you compare the lastest (3y or less) motherboard audio part ?  alc1150? the capacity of running audiophile headphone like akg k702 701 712.... ?
> Thx you.


 
  
 To be honest I don't know anything about that chip for on-board sound.  The only one I've used in the last 3 years is the SupremeFX that came on my Asus Maximus VI Formula (ROG) motherboard.  It sounded pretty decent but I have to qualify that statement with a "for onboard", most motherboards don't handle 300ohm or higher headphones very well so it's definitely an exception.  
  
 With that being said... compared to an actual amp/dac it's night and day, the Grace Design sounds so much better it's almost like I was wearing a cheap headset before.  If you can't afford a separate amp/dac I would look at getting a decent sound-card instead.  Also, iirc I think I remember people saying that the AKG headphones are pretty picky about amplification so I wouldn't use them with onboard.
  
 If you wanted a decent amp/dac for less than what I'm using I'd look at the Schiit Magni/Modi stack, the normal version is $200 (for both) and the uber versions are $300.  Although for $300 I'd get a JDSlabs o2+odac instead.  Those are both VERY good units for music and gaming and aren't quite as pricey as the Grace Design.


----------



## pocahontas

aithos said:


> To be honest I don't know anything about that chip for on-board sound.  The only one I've used in the last 3 years is the SupremeFX that came on my Asus Maximus VI Formula (ROG) motherboard.  It sounded pretty decent but I have to qualify that statement with a "for onboard", most motherboards don't handle 300ohm or higher headphones very well so it's definitely an exception.
> 
> With that being said... compared to an actual amp/dac it's night and day, the Grace Design sounds so much better it's almost like I was wearing a cheap headset before.  If you can't afford a separate amp/dac I would look at getting a decent sound-card instead.  Also, iirc I think I remember people saying that the AKG headphones are pretty picky about amplification so I wouldn't use them with onboard.
> 
> If you wanted a decent amp/dac for less than what I'm using I'd look at the Schiit Magni/Modi stack, the normal version is $200 (for both) and the uber versions are $300.  Although for $300 I'd get a JDSlabs o2+odac instead.  Those are both VERY good units for music and gaming and aren't quite as pricey as the Grace Design.


 

 Hi, so for you it would be a night and day upgrade? concerning the o2 and the odac versus what you had for exemple on your motherboard( ASUS Maximus VI Formula C2)?
 Because technicaly the sound quality was very cared of if i read here:
 https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/MAXIMUS_VI_FORMULA/
  
 Because for exemple, if you look at an high end mother board right now like the Gigabyte Z170X-Gaming G1 or the MSI Z170A GAMING M9 ACK, it look good and i would only buy it for the audio (80% of my criteria)


----------



## Corundum

Hello everyone.  I'm currently searching for an upgrade to my current setup, which is an ATH-AD700 played from my onboard Realtek HD audio.  I primarily use it for gaming, and sometimes passively listen to music on it while doing other things.
  
 After looking through both this thread and Mad Lust Envy's thread, I think I'm going to go with the DT990 Pro 250 Ohm, as I highly value clarity in the treble range, and would like something with more bass without sacrificing a huge amount of soundstage and positioning.  My other top choices were the K612 Pro, X2, and K712 Pro.  The DT990 and K612 could be found for roughly $150, and the X2 and K712 were nearly double that, and I found it hard to justify the more expensive options given the amount of recommendations for the DT990.
  
 Since I'm considering the 250 Ohm version of the DT990, my onboard audio would no longer be sufficient to drive my headphones, so I am looking for opinions regarding external DACs, amps, or DAC/amp combos.
  
 There is a slight audible hiss at all times (3-5 dB) when I have my headphones plugged in to the onboard audio, which I assume is either EMI or power supply jitter.  Would an external DAC have an audible hiss like this as well?
  
 The options I am currently considering are as follows:
  

Sound Blaster Z + SBX Pro Studio Surround >> DT990
Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 + SBX Pro Studio Surround >> Schiit Fulla >> DT990
Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 + SBX Pro Studio Surround >> Schiit Modi 2 >> Schiit Magni 2 >> DT990
  
 Would the internal SBZ card also experience the same hiss as the onboard audio?  With the DT990, would there be a SQ difference between the SBZ, Fulla, and Modi/Magni?  What about the Uber versions of the Modi/Magni stack?  My wallet would prefer options 1 and 2, as they are much cheaper than 3.
  
 I don't know about the SBZ amp, but the Fulla amp should be sufficient as I rarely listen to anything over 90 dB.  Can anyone render any experiences, opinions, or recommendations regarding my options?


----------



## pocahontas

corundum said:


> Hello everyone.  I'm currently searching for an upgrade to my current setup, which is an ATH-AD700 played from my onboard Realtek HD audio.  I primarily use it for gaming, and sometimes passively listen to music on it while doing other things.
> 
> After looking through both this thread and Mad Lust Envy's thread, I think I'm going to go with the DT990 Pro 250 Ohm, as I highly value clarity in the treble range, and would like something with more bass without sacrificing a huge amount of soundstage and positioning.  My other top choices were the K612 Pro, X2, and K712 Pro.  The DT990 and K612 could be found for roughly $150, and the X2 and K712 were nearly double that, and I found it hard to justify the more expensive options given the amount of recommendations for the DT990.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi, i heard that your headphone is already the best regarding "soundstage". I don't think you will have better if we speak only about gaming. Maybe some one could suggest you some thing equivalent with a more overall performance..


----------



## Fegefeuer

Did you check out the K7XX at Massdrop? 199 Dollars.Would always prefer that over the DT990 Pro 250 Ohm. 
  
 No need to pay up for the K712 Pro für 300. K7XX will do just fine.


----------



## pocahontas

fegefeuer said:


> Did you check out the K7XX at Massdrop? 199 Dollars.Would always prefer that over the DT990 Pro 250 Ohm.
> 
> No need to pay up for the K712 Pro für 300. K7XX will do just fine.


 

 Heard that K7xx is not the K712 pro. The pro is better.


----------



## Corundum

Oh wow, I didn't actually realize the K7XX was one specific product. Mad Lust Envy used K7XX in his reviews to denote the entire K701/2 range. Would any of my 3 potential setups be sufficient for the K7XX?


----------



## Fegefeuer

corundum said:


> Oh wow, I didn't actually realize the K7XX was one specific product. Mad Lust Envy used K7XX in his reviews to denote the entire K701/2 range. Would any of my 3 potential setups be sufficient for the K7XX?


 
  
 better get the Magni 2 UBER to stay safe(r)


----------



## 422561

Regarding the section "*Method for using sound card as DSP to output to any audio device, including USB ones, in Windows 7"*
  
 Does this also work with SBX on Sound Blaster Z in Windows 10?


----------



## SoAmusing777

blueninja0 said:


> I do it with my old PCI X-Fi XtremeMusic and it works perfectly. The sound quality is exactly the same as if you were using the sound card itself, to my ears (I recommend you configure all devices involved to the same sample rate to avoid Windows having to re-sample the sound, possibly degrading quality or increasing the latency). The only slight change you might notice is a bit of latency. I don't know if it's caused by the processing or by the routing of the sound to the external DAC, but it's only a slight difference. I'm planning to do a test myself and post it on this thread when I get the time: http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield-4-technical-discussion/5855-improving-bf4-s-positional-audio-with-profsave-profile/index14.html#post308859
> 
> I wish I had a way for it to work without needing to attach the actual sound card in my mobo because realistically it's there doing absolutely nothing. It's just there for the Creative drivers to work, but all the processing is done in software and the card is just consuming power and gathering dust, but oh well.


 
 So what's the point of this? To use your own personal superior dac and amp to the soundcard? just using the soundcard for it's special properties? Wish one could use a soundcard like an external gpu.


----------



## NamelessPFG

reddfour said:


> Regarding the section "*Method for using sound card as DSP to output to any audio device, including USB ones, in Windows 7"*
> 
> Does this also work with SBX on Sound Blaster Z in Windows 10?


 
  
 I can't test it, but even so, I wouldn't recommend it. Further testing in my experience revealed that it actually sounded terrible, all distorted and crap compared to running it straight.
  
 One of these days, I need to rewrite the guide outright.
  


blueninja0 said:


> I do it with my old PCI X-Fi XtremeMusic and it works perfectly. The sound quality is exactly the same as if you were using the sound card itself, to my ears (I recommend you configure all devices involved to the same sample rate to avoid Windows having to re-sample the sound, possibly degrading quality or increasing the latency). The only slight change you might notice is a bit of latency. I don't know if it's caused by the processing or by the routing of the sound to the external DAC, but it's only a slight difference. I'm planning to do a test myself and post it on this thread when I get the time: http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield-4-technical-discussion/5855-improving-bf4-s-positional-audio-with-profsave-profile/index14.html#post308859
> 
> I wish I had a way for it to work without needing to attach the actual sound card in my mobo because realistically it's there doing absolutely nothing. It's just there for the Creative drivers to work, but all the processing is done in software and the card is just consuming power and gathering dust, but oh well.


 
  
 Well, this is an interesting forum thread. Sure wish I knew about it earlier; I'll give it a good read and see what I can do to improve those Frostbite engine games' mixing.
  
 Everyone here has also been deconstructing what game engines and their audio systems are capable of more than my own two ears can let on, which is also good. I know I've had a few rude surprises about games sounding less capable than their audio APIs suggest, particularly the original Serious Sam TFE/TSE releases. EAX was an option in-game, but the sound mixing was still pretty basic, perhaps because they didn't want to kill the weaker CPUs of the time with all that sound processing for the series trademark hordes of enemies.
  
 Meanwhile, let me throw in something else for you guys to think about:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/248983394/ossic-x-the-first-3d-audio-headphones-calibrated-t
  
 On one hand, someone's taking 3D audio seriously again, even pushing for native object-based audio formats in PC games like we once had. That's great!
  
 On the other, it's only going to work with this one specifically-designed headphone that isn't even made yet. They'd have more of a market if they made it a DSP box like the Smyth Realiser at a fraction of the price. At least then, you could use any existing set of headphones.


----------



## robwiel

Hi,

 Looking for gear recommendation for headphone immersive gaming 3d/2d and music. Would greatly appreciate help.
 Would love to keep decent positioning and better music experience when switching to nongaming headset.

 Currently my PC:
 X-Fi titanium pcie >> amp: C&C BH (temporary) analogue 3.5mm >> Bayerdynamic custom one plus (16 Ohms) 
 + V-moda boompro mic when arrives
 Win10, danielk drivers
  
*Recommendations for my PC:*
X-Fi titanium pcie needs changing into anything more modern? Should I just get SB X7 for those headphones without any amps to gain quality and keep virtual surround?
Amp or no amp? O2, shiit magni/asgaard2/bifrost seem to be most common
Using TOSLink from X-Fi or keep analogue?
Any other closed headphones compatible with v-moda mic? (Alpha Dog seems overkill)
 Do I need anything else?
  
*My current impressions and budget*
 Sound on my headphones seems better with my AMP, I am looking for alternative though (noise while charging):
 I have another 500 usd to complete setup, I can return bayerdynamic headphones but couldn't find closed headphone option out of linked choices.

*For reference my portable listening:*
 I have c&c bh amp
 And IEM 'custom art music one' which are amazing but hard to remove and for gaming would prefer closed cans.
 This amp though is noisy when charging and not sure if good fit for computer setup and virtual 5.1/7.1 as described in guide

 So far what I found out by digging through 160 pages of this would suggest that amp in SB X-Fi PCIE would be enough for 16 Ohms headphones.
  
 regards,
 Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## BlueNinja0

soamusing777 said:


> So what's the point of this? To use your own personal superior dac and amp to the soundcard? just using the soundcard for it's special properties? Wish one could use a soundcard like an external gpu.


 
  
 The point is to be able to have virtual surround sound through a superior DAC.
  


namelesspfg said:


> Meanwhile, let me throw in something else for you guys to think about:
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/248983394/ossic-x-the-first-3d-audio-headphones-calibrated-t
> 
> On one hand, someone's taking 3D audio seriously again, even pushing for native object-based audio formats in PC games like we once had. That's great!
> ...


 
  
 Now this is very interesting! I also think there's a bit of a resurgence of 3D audio technology in part thanks to the impending VR headsets, which is a good thing. About time!
  


robwiel said:


> *Recommendations for my PC:*
> X-Fi titanium pcie needs changing into anything more modern? Should I just get SB X7 for those headphones without any amps to gain quality and keep virtual surround?
> Amp or no amp? O2, shiit magni/asgaard2/bifrost seem to be most common
> Using TOSLink from X-Fi or keep analogue?


 
  
 This post I made previously might be of interest to you:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/593050/the-nameless-guide-to-pc-gaming-audio-with-binaural-headphone-surround-sound/3480#post_12251782
  
 I do it with a super old PCI (not PCI-E) X-Fi. And you don't need to use TOSLink or analogue. Just USB from your PC to your DAC.


----------



## robwiel

Thansk





blueninja0 said:


> The point is to be able to have virtual surround sound through a superior DAC.
> 
> 
> Now this is very interesting! I also think there's a bit of a resurgence of 3D audio technology in part thanks to the impending VR headsets, which is a good thing. About time!
> ...




Thanks, seen your post before. Believe it or not I went throught 235 pages of Nameless gaming thread.

I just finished listening ath msr7 vs COP+ comparison at store. 

Unsuprisingly I can confirm ath being more analytical/less fun. Bass is more responsive and precise than cop+ albeit missing at moments.

For competitive gaming much better than cop I imagine. 

All in all, only 1 issue which disqualificates them for me - not comfortable earphones  idk 

Thx for all help will look for dac/amp now for cop+


----------



## BlueNinja0

robwiel said:


> Thansk
> Thanks, seen your post before. Believe it or not I went throught 235 pages of Nameless gaming thread.
> 
> I just finished listening ath msr7 vs COP+ comparison at store.
> ...


 
  
 All I can tell you is that I like my ODAC+O2 with my Philips Fidelio X2, but I'm not an audiophile by any means and haven't tried many combinations.


----------



## robwiel

Did a little test of cmss3D for music for COP+
 Source: Tidal, Gold (Flume rework)
  
 CMSS3D | win10  speaker setup | x-fi speaker setup
 enabled   | 7.1                            | headphone          = music baaad
 disabled  | 7.1                            | headphone          = music degraded somewhat, channel reproduction suffers bit 
 disabled  | Stereo                       | headphone          = good music and channel reproduction
  
 Is there a way to get Tidal as stereo no CMSS3D output from PC
 while everything else (games) to use CMSS3D enabled and 7.1? Or some kind of software switching those.
  
 Seems like saving couple of clicks every time.


----------



## BlueNinja0

robwiel said:


> Did a little test of cmss3D for music for COP+
> Source: Tidal, Gold (Flume rework)
> 
> CMSS3D | win10  speaker setup | x-fi speaker setup
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, I also wish this existed. I have to manually enable CMSS3D when I want to play games. It's a chore.


----------



## Corundum

robwiel said:


> Did a little test of cmss3D for music for COP+
> Source: Tidal, Gold (Flume rework)
> 
> CMSS3D | win10  speaker setup | x-fi speaker setup
> ...




Does cmss do anything if you set your playback device to stereo? If not, you could just leave it on and only switch the channel configuration in Windows.


----------



## robwiel

Sadly yes, thats one aspect real 5.1 headphones are better at.


----------



## jeffm1

Hello,
  
 I had purchased the Razer Kraken 7.1 USB headphones for PC Gaming a while back. I use these often, but I found from the very beginning that they are very uncomfortable for me:- I had read that they are very tight on your head, but I assumed this would change over time. It did not and so I find that I can not game for prolonged sessions because of the horrible feeling it causes in my head.
 Also, from the beginning I started using them with a hooded jumper because I could not stand their direct contact with my head. (To help with comfort). It also helped me to not hear a slight hissing noise whenever audio was playing which was quite annoying, but I assumed it was the USB connection.
  
 Can anyone recommend me fantastic headphones that are OPEN(no need for microphone but don't mind if there is one). I play FPS games very casually, as I enjoy a range of different games typically with a story-driven narrative. I also like to listen to Hip-Hop/ Rap.
 My motherboard has Realtek HD Audio onboard if that means anything for a 3.5mm jack connection.
  
 r/PCMasterRace over at Reddit tend to like sennheisers but I am unsure.
  
 Thanks in advance!


----------



## pocahontas

jeffm1 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I had purchased the Razer Kraken 7.1 USB headphones for PC Gaming a while back. I use these often, but I found from the very beginning that they are very uncomfortable for me:- I had read that they are very tight on your head, but I assumed this would change over time. It did not and so I find that I can not game for prolonged sessions because of the horrible feeling it causes in my head.
> Also, from the beginning I started using them with a hooded jumper because I could not stand their direct contact with my head. (To help with comfort). It also helped me to not hear a slight hissing noise whenever audio was playing which was quite annoying, but I assumed it was the USB connection.
> ...


 

 Hi, for a nice gaming headset with good perf in every aspect, you can count on the sennheiser G4me One. It's basicaly a sennheiser hd558 but with a microphone on it.
 They are very often good deals with this headset on internet (amazon, private sells...) where you can find it at 100 dollars.
  
 An other good gaming headset with many good reviews is the Audio Technica ATH-AD700X but i think the HD558/G4me One should be a more overall good headphone than this one. The AD700x is known apparently for his huge soundstage and many fps players use it.
  
 If your budget is a bit lower but if you still want some thing good, there are very positive reviews about the HyperX Cloud 1 BUT IT IS A CLOSED GAMING HEADPHONE  .


----------



## jeffm1

Hmm...
 Think I'll be staying away from these so-called "gaming headset" from now on.
 Since my initial post I have been researching and have decided that headphones suit my needs without a microphone. Therefore I believe I will invest in the Philips X2 Fidelio, and then maybe some time get a DAC which I hear a lot of people talking good things about.
  
 Thank you, friend.


----------



## pocahontas

jeffm1 said:


> Hmm...
> Think I'll be staying away from these so-called "gaming headset" from now on.
> Since my initial post I have been researching and have decided that headphones suit my needs without a microphone. Therefore I believe I will invest in the Philips X2 Fidelio, and then maybe some time get a DAC which I hear a lot of people talking good things about.
> 
> Thank you, friend.


 

 Hi, but headphone will maybe need, but depending of your motherboard, force you to buy a little amp (because sound to low) or even a DAC (bottleneck) with it :/
 Some one will help you concidering it. Post your motherboard spec (will not change much for some people xD).
  
 On the other hand, what i wrote on my other post is amp Free.


----------



## jeffm1

Motherboard Name: Gigabyte GA-H81M-S2H
 I believe it is Realtek as I have the audio drivers for that installed.
  
 I don't mind about buying an Amp/DAC because I do want good quality.
 The Razer headphones I own are horrible because they are connected with USB and have a hissing noise.


----------



## dfwallace

Son and I are PC gamers and listen to music thru our PC... our rig:
 Asus P8P67 MB
 i7-2600k cpu
 nVidia EVGA 980Ti vid card
 8 gb Corsair Mem
 Toshiba 850 EVO 1TB SSD
 Asus Xonar Essence ST internal sound card
 M-Audio AV40 speakers (2.0)
 Sennheiser PC360 headset
  
 We are disappointed with the 'surround'/directionality of the sound from the headset playing games, including the FPS Battlefield 4. The music sound is decent with the headset, but the M-Audio's need a sub to better cover the range of music. We usually use the headset when the wife is home and often the speakers when she is not. We have had on and off problems with the sound card drivers.
  
 Are there better gaming sound solutions to what we are experiencing? Another sound card, etc??
  
 Thanks for ideas/suggestions....


----------



## pocahontas

dfwallace said:


> Son and I are PC gamers and listen to music thru our PC... our rig:
> Asus P8P67 MB
> i7-2600k cpu
> nVidia EVGA 980Ti vid card
> ...


 

 Good luck for you and your son


----------



## fonkydevil

Dear all, after a few years gaming with mobo sound + a pair of Creative T20 speakers, I was curious to try headphone and bought some Qpad QH-85. Now I wish I had been more informed and knew that they are just a branding of 25$ but good-for-their-price Takstar HI2050 headphones... So meh. They still sound good anyway.
  
 Anyway I am now interested in trying some "3D" sound, I started doing my homework (but did not read this full thread !), lurked the HeadFi forums, and I am now considering the purchase of a Schiit Modi/Magni 2U or Modi2/Vali2 stack, because I don't want to invest on "gaming only" gear.
  
 So my question to you is : would getting software 3D processing (ie Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3) and playing it through the Schiit stack (DAC/AMP) be a good idea ? Would it produce results equivalent to a sound card (SBZ ou Essence STX, etc.) ?
  
 Thank you in advance !


----------



## fonkydevil

Answering myself : I did more reading and it seems like I can't discard the DSP dedicated processor, so I guess that means either a Soudblaster Z + Schiit stack (440€ total) OR the Soundblaster X7 (340€).
  
 Do you guys have any opinion ? I'm hesitant maybe for the price of SBZ+Schiit I couldeven throw in a pair of Creative E-MU XM7, which I expect would be an upgrade from my old T20.


----------



## alfa42

fonkydevil said:


> Answering myself : I did more reading and it seems like I can't discard the DSP dedicated processor, so I guess that means either a Soudblaster Z + Schiit stack (440€ total) OR the Soundblaster X7 (340€).
> 
> Do you guys have any opinion ? I'm hesitant maybe for the price of SBZ+Schiit I couldeven throw in a pair of Creative E-MU XM7, which I expect would be an upgrade from my old T20.


 
  
 If you use the MODI 2 in the chain then you are going to bypass the Soundblaster soundcard (since the Modi will be doing the audio processing), or did you meant using the Soundblaster for gaming only and the modi/magni only for audio listening?
  
 I'm facing the same dilemma and I'm currently evaluating the Soundblaster ZXR (for the RCA) and the Magni 2U (or maybe the Asgard 2 xD) for further amplification (for power hungry headphones).


----------



## fonkydevil

Well, I think I understood that for 3D sound it is mandatory (or at least highly recommended) to have a dedicated DSP chip, which the Modi is not. So in order to achieve it I'd have to have DSP (SBZ or ZXR) optical out to modi to magni/vali. Maybe I'm wrong though.
  
 The X7 seems to offer the same possibilities (with only 1 device), with equivalent audio quality, for cheaper. Also it gives hi-fi audio in addition to gaming/headphone audio. The problem is it is Creative, and totally dependent on whatever drivers they assent to provide, as long as they see fit.
  
 I wonder if there are other (cheaper) options ? And which way to go ?


----------



## Corundum

It is not necessary to have a hardware DSP for headphone surround.  Creative MB3 allows you to have software-based SBX Pro Studio.  I'm not sure if they require you to have a device that has a setting for 7.1, but if they do, you can use VB-Audio Virtual Cable to give you a virtual 7.1 device that can be routed to your actual 2.0 DAC.


----------



## dutch19

Hello, recently i purchased a k701 with a soundblaster z to improve my pc gaming experience. This thread has been very helpful deciding what to buy. Im quite satisfied with my setup, however think it still could be improved. I play RTS and Fps, headphones only. I appriciate huge  soundstage and detailed audio positioning  Therefore i was wondering:
  
 Will a dac/amp improve my game experience even further? If yes, how? And what can be recommended to my current setup?
  
 I was also wondering whether the use of Rapture3D would increase my game experience significantly. What are the pros and cons using this on my setup?
  
 Cheers


----------



## BlueNinja0

> Originally Posted by *dfwallace* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> We are disappointed with the 'surround'/directionality of the sound from the headset playing games, including the FPS Battlefield 4.


 
  
 Are you using any kind of surround sound virtualization? Are the settings in Battlefield 4 and Windows set for surround?
  
  


corundum said:


> It is not necessary to have a hardware DSP for headphone surround.  Creative MB3 allows you to have software-based SBX Pro Studio.  I'm not sure if they require you to have a device that has a setting for 7.1, but if they do, you can use VB-Audio Virtual Cable to give you a virtual 7.1 device that can be routed to your actual 2.0 DAC.


 
  
 That is VERY interesting. I think Creative doesn't support external DACs like the ODAC because they show up as 2.0 devices on Windows. But that virtual cable thing might solve the problem altogether.
 Anyone tried, or is willing to try this combo? I don't feel like wasting $30 just to find out it doesn't work. X-Fi MB3 should have at least a trial...


----------



## gr34td3str0y3r

I don't know why I am having such a hard time grasping this. I have been using the Mixamp for console gaming for 6 years now. 
  
 I just built a new PC gaming rig and I am switching over to PC gaming. 
 So I have a z710 Gigabyte Gaming 3 motherboard. I installed the realtek audio drivers. I installed the Sound Blaster X-fi M83 software package (which as far as I can tell also installs the sound blaster drivers). I have SBX turned on. 
  
 I have audio going out to a USB o2 stack. Thats it? I'm good to go as far as surround gaming sound goes?


----------



## BlueNinja0

gr34td3str0y3r said:


> I don't know why I am having such a hard time grasping this. I have been using the Mixamp for console gaming for 6 years now.
> 
> I just built a new PC gaming rig and I am switching over to PC gaming.
> So I have a z710 Gigabyte Gaming 3 motherboard. I installed the realtek audio drivers. I installed the Sound Blaster X-fi M83 software package (which as far as I can tell also installs the sound blaster drivers). I have SBX turned on.
> ...


 
  
 It should be. The problem is that Creative is incompetent enough to make the X-Fi MB3 incompatible with 2.0 output devices (such as the O2/ODAC).
 Now, Corundum, posted an interesting suggestion about using those virtual audio cables but the problem is we can't try it out on the X-Fi MB3 to see if it works unless we cough up $30 to try it.


----------



## gr34td3str0y3r

It seems to be working. The demo works. I don't have any games installed right now that I know has any surround sound to test. I think Serious Sam HD does. 
 Is there any program or website I can use to test it.


----------



## BlueNinja0

gr34td3str0y3r said:


> It seems to be working. The demo works. I don't have any games installed right now that I know has any surround sound to test. I think Serious Sam HD does.
> Is there any program or website I can use to test it.


 

 Try a free game like Team Fortress 2 or something to test it.


----------



## liraop

Hi all, I will now write down my story. It may help someone.

 I got a Xonar DG and a schiit stack (modi2u,magni2u). My goal was to be able to play/watch movies with surround sound and listen some music on hi-fi status.

 Cons:
 1) When I set passthrough device, from xonar to modi2, I get BSOD;
 2) I have to manually set on DH and others enhancements for 3D surround sound;
 3) DAC section of modi2u and Xonar DG are quite similar, so probably isn't a good deal to buy modi2u if you don't need the extra inputs.;
 4) xonar dg is unable to reach its full potential under linux.
  
 Pros:
 1) Immersive sound on games like skyrim, fallout:NV, UT2K4 (EAX makes some difference ;
 2) Modi2u gives me more flexibility on inputs;
 3) Modi2u using ASIO on foobar is superb -- (I've been downloading some good quality recordings on rutracker. I'd suggest the same).


 I might have some other thoughts but the beer don't let me remember all of it.


----------



## gr34td3str0y3r

Sorry, what is DH. Did you mean DG as in Xonar DG?


----------



## Evshrug

DH = Dolby Headphone. It's special processing that allows your typical stereo headphones make sounds that seem to come from in front of you, behind, or from the sides. I quite like it, and feel partially blinded in first person games if I don't have some kind of virtual surround.


----------



## liraop

gr34td3str0y3r said:


> Sorry, what is DH. Did you mean DG as in Xonar DG?


 

 yes, da, sim!


----------



## StudioSound

blueninja0 said:


> It should be. The problem is that Creative is incompetent enough to make the X-Fi MB3 incompatible with 2.0 output devices (such as the O2/ODAC).
> Now, Corundum, posted an interesting suggestion about using those virtual audio cables but the problem is we can't try it out on the X-Fi MB3 to see if it works unless we cough up $30 to try it.


 
 It is not "incompetence". X-Fi MB3 is designed to only work with specific on-board audio hardware.
 Even if you use a 5.1 or 7.1 audio device - physical or virtual - if it's not on the hardware whitelist you're not getting virtual surround.
  
 X-Fi MB3 worked just fine with my motherboard's Realtek hardware, and the output could then be forwarded over its optical connection to have an external DAC handle the conversion to analog.
 However there were a few usability issues that I had with it, that led me to uninstall the software.
 If you're wanting to run all audio through it, it should work fine. If you have multiple sound devices you switch between which are set to specific volume levels rather than everything at 100%, it was very frustrating to use, as the MB3 software kept changing the volume settings for my devices.
  
 The best option for surround/virtual surround in old games, is an X-Fi 20K1 (PCI) or 20K2 (PCIe) card. Works great even on Windows 10 in 99% of the games I have tried, so long as you use the daniel_k "X-Fi Series Support Pack" drivers. (latest version is currently v3.8)
 The best option for virtual surround in modern games is probably Creative's Sound BlasterX G5 since that gives you 7.1 SBX Surround. I say probably, because I haven't used one myself - I'm still using my Sound Blaster Z. (5.1 SBX)
  
 If you want to connect an external DAC via optical, use the "Play stereo mix using digital output" option in the sound card's control panel, don't use the "listen to this device" option on the "What U Hear" recording device.
 If you're using an optical DAC and want to quickly switch between stereo and virtual surround, switch the default output device in Windows between the X-Fi and the S/PDIF device. I use AudioSwitch for this.


----------



## Corundum

So, in my specific case, I am utilizing a slightly different method than the one I mentioned using virtual cables.  I am running THX TruStudio Pro, which I believe is the same as SBX Pro Studio with a different badge.  Since THX TruStudio is bundled with my onboard sound, it can only use that device as the output device.
  
 I set THX TruStudio to "headphones" mode, and my onboard sound to 7.1 and use it as my default playback device.  Then, I use the "Stereo Mix" recording device, which automatically captures the output of my onboard sound, and set it to play back through my USB DAC.  This gives me the same virtual surround effect as if I had plugged my headphones directly into my mobo's headphone port.  The pipeline looks like this:
  
 Media/Game => Onboard Sound (7.1) + THX TruStudio => Stereo Mix (2.0) => USB DAC (2.0)
  
 The technique I mentioned using X-Fi MB3 is for users who do not have any bundled CMSS/THX/SBX virtual surround software, as based on my impression of the product page, it should work with any playback device, since it is not bundled with any hardware.  The MB3 software would fill in for the bundled software you don't have.  That is also why I mention the need for virtual cables, as I believe the virtual surround algorithm only works if the Media/Game is outputting surround sound, and that only happens if it is told to output to a surround sound device.  If your existing playback device is capable of discrete surround sound output, and it has a feature similar to stereo mix, then you don't need virtual cables.  This pipeline looks like this:
  
 Media/Game => Virtual Cables Input (7.1)/Existing Surround Device + X-Fi MB3 => Virtual Cables Output (2.0)/Existing Stereo Mix => USB DAC (2.0)
  
 It's not that Creative is incompetent because MB3 is incompatible with stereo devices, it's perfectly capable of working with them.  It's that your media/game will not send surround sound information if you tell it that your playback device is stereo.  What Creative could have done is provide a virtual playback device with their MB3 software that mimics a surround sound playback device.
  
 I believe the virtual playback device approach is what the Creative Sound Blaster E5 and Sound BlasterX G5 do, as they appear, to your system, to be surround sound devices, when in reality they only have stereo outputs.
  
 However, having never purchased and tried the MB3 software, I do not know if it already implements this approach.


----------



## gr34td3str0y3r

Sorry. I am feeling REALLY dense. Can we just take one step back for me please. 
 I want virtual surround sound for my games through my 2.0 headphones. 
 I have realtek audio and creative  X-Fi MB3. What is creating the virtual signal. SBX in  X-Fi MB3? 
  
 Right now I have my audio coming out of the USB to an ODAC. So there is no virtual SBX coming through? If I plug my motherboard optical out into an optical DAC I will be able to get virtual signal to my headphones? 
  
 What if I plug my headphones into my motherboard? Because they sound like they are dipped in dog #$%#$ 3 inches thick when they are running through my mobo.


----------



## BlueNinja0

studiosound said:


> It is not "incompetence". X-Fi MB3 is designed to only work with specific on-board audio hardware.


 
  
 X-Fi MB3's function is completely unrelated to the on-board audio. It should work with any sound device independently.
  
 The following post by Corundum explains it perfectly:


> Originally Posted by *Corundum* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> It's not that Creative is incompetent because MB3 is incompatible with stereo devices, it's perfectly capable of working with them.  It's that your media/game will not send surround sound information if you tell it that your playback device is stereo.  What Creative could have done is provide a virtual playback device with their MB3 software that mimics a surround sound playback device.


 
  
  
  


gr34td3str0y3r said:


> Sorry. I am feeling REALLY dense. Can we just take one step back for me please.
> I want virtual surround sound for my games through my 2.0 headphones.
> I have realtek audio and creative  X-Fi MB3. What is creating the virtual signal. SBX in  X-Fi MB3?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I don't get it. You said you're using Realtek audio, but later you said you're using an ODAC. You probably are not using both at the same time.
 The problem here is that the game is probably only sending out 2.0 information, so the MB3 application can't do anything to create virtual surround sound.


----------



## gr34td3str0y3r

> I don't get it. You said you're using Realtek audio, but later you said you're using an ODAC. You probably are not using both at the same time.
> The problem here is that the game is probably only sending out 2.0 information, so the MB3 application can't do anything to create virtual surround sound.


 
 I have been messing around and thinking about this since I posted. 
 It dawned on me the ODAC is bypassing the realtek. 
  
 I am also a double moron. I have an Astro Mix amp sitting right here. I just built a gaming rig a couple months ago, so it didn't even cross my mind to hook my Astro mix amp up to the PC. 
  
 All I really want is is virtual surround sound to my headphones. So actually the Mix Amp gives me TWO options now. Using coaxial or optical from the mobo to the mix amp I can get SBX to the mix amp OR turn SBX off and turn Dolby Headphone on from the mixamp correct? But from what I have read, SBX 66% or 100% is usually much better than Dolby Headphone. 

 Edit:
 I am eyeballing a Creative G5 which should bring an improvement over the mix amps dac and amp.


----------



## BlueNinja0

gr34td3str0y3r said:


> I have been messing around and thinking about this since I posted.
> It dawned on me the ODAC is bypassing the realtek.
> 
> I am also a double moron. I have an Astro Mix amp sitting right here. I just built a gaming rig a couple months ago, so it didn't even cross my mind to hook my Astro mix amp up to the PC.
> ...


 
  
 I don't believe you can output uncompressed surround with optical. What inputs does the Mix Amp have?


----------



## gr34td3str0y3r

optical, RCA, coaxial. 
 If I understand the SBX signal should be able to transfer through coax or optical, but not USB.


----------



## Corundum

You will still need a 5.1/7.1 device as your default playback device, and then use something equivalent to realtek's stereo mix to redirect the sound to your s/pdif out. If you don't care about latency (like for movies where the audio delay can be calibrated), or you have a low latency redirect method, you can use SBX. If you are using it in a context where latency matters, the Dolby headphones surround built in to the mix amp is probably your best bet with your available equipment. I personally find the dolby positional cues to be too artificial, as if the sounds are being bounced off of 5 walls arranged in a circle around me, whereas cmss/thx/SBX feel much more like natural point sources.


----------



## Rolkin

Bah! When everything switched to OpenAL and I had to use Alchemy to allow EAX/CMSS in games I thought it was over. Next build I didn't even get a sound card. (WinXP?)

 Anyway, I loved my old Beyer 250-80's and I'm now looking at replacing my ATH-M50's with the Beyer DT770's (250ohm?) and I was looking at the SoundBlaster E5 to use as a DAC+AMP. I read that the 32/250ohm has a better sound stage than the 80... but that the 32ohm still needs an amp because of its lower sensitivity.

 That's when I found this thread! Considering this is post 3,500 or something I didn't read up on all the previous posts. It seems some things have changed in the last 5 years since this thread was started.

 I'm trying to figure out if I should go with the afore mentioned E5 DAC+AMP, a PCI-E SoundBlaster (Z/Zx) plus an Amp, or something else, E12 etc. I like the Sound Blaster solution mainly because I can plug my Mod Mic in front instead of the back of the PC.

 I also had a question about AMD TrueAudio. Would it be able to replace the DSP on the X-Fi and then just get an Amp, or does it not work well enough to use with current games? I just got an HTC Vive and I'm trying to figure out the best solution for VR and FPS gaming. 

 I'm looking to build a new PC at the end of the year and if AMD's claims hold up when Zen / Polaris is released I might be able to use the AMD True Audio then.

 Edit**

 I keep reading that for positional accuracy open cans like the DT990's is where it's at... however I also have 4 kids, so I've pretty much stuck to closed so I can hear everything without hearing EVERYTHING. Is it that big of a deal? I currently work nights, but I don't know how long before I can get back on days. It might be years and if the open cans are "a lot" better then it might be worth getting them.


----------



## StudioSound

blueninja0 said:


> X-Fi MB3's function is completely unrelated to the on-board audio. It should work with any sound device independently.


 
  
 Wrong. X-Fi MB3 will only appear as a virtual 7.1 device in Windows when you are using a compatible on-board audio codec for playback.
 If you are using a USB DAC or any other device for playback - even a 7.1 device - then the X-Fi MB3 virtual sound device will be restricted to stereo-only and SBX Surround will be acting as a spatializer, not as a virtual surround sound downmixer.
  


blueninja0 said:


> I don't believe you can output uncompressed surround with optical. What inputs does the Mix Amp have?


 
 You can do uncompressed stereo over optical - up to 24/96 with most transmitters/receivers.
 Surround has to be encoded (compressed) as Dolby Digital or DTS.
 Dolby Digital Live or DTS: Connect software can do this, but adds latency and is not a good solution for gaming.
  
_Virtual Surround_ is already a stereo signal, so _that_ can be transmitted to another device via an optical connection.
 But you can't pass a 5.1 signal via optical to an external Dolby Headphone decoder losslessly. You would need a sound card which did the DH processing before outputting an optical signal.
  


rolkin said:


> Bah! When everything switched to OpenAL and I had to use Alchemy to allow EAX/CMSS in games I thought it was over. Next build I didn't even get a sound card. (WinXP?)


 
 That was Vista.
 Personally I still play a ton of old games - more than ever now with services like GOG - which is why I actually sought out an older X-Fi card for my PC.
The 20K1 (PCI) and 20K2 (PCIe) X-Fi cards have the full EAX feature-set, and are the last cards to support EAX in hardware.
 Anything newer than them uses software emulation which sounds much worse - but better than nothing at all.
 ALchemy is still required if you're using anything newer than Windows XP of course, and the last games to have EAX support were released around 2008.
  
 If you don't care about old games, the new Sound Blasters are a fine choice as SBX is arguably better than CMSS for surround sound when downmixing from a 5.1/7.1 source.
  


rolkin said:


> I'm trying to figure out if I should go with the afore mentioned E5 DAC+AMP, a PCI-E SoundBlaster (Z/Zx) plus an Amp, or something else, E12 etc. I like the Sound Blaster solution mainly because I can plug my Mod Mic in front instead of the back of the PC.


 
 If you do PC gaming, get a Sound Blaster.
 A regular headphone amp/DAC (like the E12) won't give you virtual surround.
 The Sound BlasterX G5 (or Sound Blaster E5 with the latest firmware update?) seem like really good deals if you want a small all-in-one external device for this.
  


rolkin said:


> I also had a question about AMD TrueAudio. Would it be able to replace the DSP on the X-Fi and then just get an Amp, or does it not work well enough to use with current games? I just got an HTC Vive and I'm trying to figure out the best solution for VR and FPS gaming.
> 
> I'm looking to build a new PC at the end of the year and if AMD's claims hold up when Zen / Polaris is released I might be able to use the AMD True Audio then.


 
 TrueAudio was a wasted opportunity. Instead of building a generalized virtual surround sound downmixer, it only works in specific games.
 As far as I'm aware there were fewer than 10 games released that ever supported it.
  


rolkin said:


> I keep reading that for positional accuracy open cans like the DT990's is where it's at... however I also have 4 kids, so I've pretty much stuck to closed so I can hear everything without hearing EVERYTHING. Is it that big of a deal? I currently work nights, but I don't know how long before I can get back on days. It might be years and if the open cans are "a lot" better then it might be worth getting them.


 
 You don't need open headphones. I use closed headphones for gaming for similar reasons.


----------



## BlueNinja0

studiosound said:


> Wrong. X-Fi MB3 will only appear as a virtual 7.1 device in Windows when you are using a compatible on-board audio codec for playback.
> If you are using a USB DAC or any other device for playback - even a 7.1 device - then the X-Fi MB3 virtual sound device will be restricted to stereo-only and SBX Surround will be acting as a spatializer, not as a virtual surround sound downmixer.


 
  
 I guess my wording was not clear. What I meant was that the sound virtualization is 100% software and could be implemented independently of the sound card in use, but Creative, in their incompetence, chose not to.
 I would gladly pay for the software.


----------



## Rolkin

Thanks for the reply, Studio. I've been reading several articles that have sounded promising from Valve and Oculus about supporting HRTF or 3D audio for VR. They sound pretty serious about it. So I was thinking that Unreal4, which has been pretty popular for VR would allow positional audio in most of the games built on it. Also, I'm a huge BF fan and with BF1 coming out in Oct. I was hoping to get some positional audio support in it, like BF2/3 had.

 Since the sound blaster has a built in headphone amp? It sounds like the cheapest way to drive the DT770's. From this article the review showed a pretty good sound stage considering they are closed headphones. 

 They seem to like to make it as confusing as possible to select the right product. I tried doing a comparison, but some support Virtual Surround, which I think is not what I want? And only the Newer Zx supports EAX 5.0, but then it uses the SoundCore3D DAC? I thought that was the one on the Recon3D that someone said to avoid...

 Then the G5 doesn't have the SBX studio which is what I thought I wanted for the Headphone surround function, but it has BlasterX software instead? I'm guessing this is for console support. Someone else was recommending the Omni, but it doesn't look like it has a headphone amp on it.

 Anyway, here's the comparison I hope someone can help straighten some of this out. I'm mostly looking at the difference between the G5 and the Zx at this point, but I'll post all 4 incase it helps anyone else out.

  

  

*Sound Blaster Zx*MOREBUY

 

*Sound Blaster E5*MOREBUY

 

*Sound Blaster Omni Surround 5.1*MOREBUY

 

*Sound BlasterX G5*MOREBUY


  


 *GENERAL*

 Audio Technology

 Sound Core3D​
 SB-Axx1™​
 -​
 SB-Axx1™​
 SBX Pro Studio

 Yes​
 Yes​
 Yes​
 -​
 Max. Playback Quality

 24-bit / 192kHz (Stereo-Direct Mode) 
 24-bit / 96kHz (5.1)​
 *Stereo Direct playback/recording sampling rates:*
24-bit / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4 and 192kHz 
*DSP playback/recording sampling rates:*
 24-bit / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96 kHz​
 *USB 2.0:*
Stereo / Surround: 24-bit / 96kHz 
*USB 1.1:*
 Stereo: 24-bit / 96kHz 
 Surround: 16-bit / 48kHz​
 *Playback:* 
 24-bit / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz​
 Max. Recording Quality

 24-bit / 96kHz​
 *Mic-in:* 
 24bit / 44.1, 48.0, 88.2, 96.0 kHz 
   
*Optical In:* 
 24-bit / 44,1 / 48 / 88,2 / 96 kHz​
 24-bit / 96kHz​
 *Line-in:* 
 24bit / 44.1, 48.0, 88.2, 96.0, 176.4, 192 kHz 
   
*Mic-in:* 
 24bit / 44.1, 48.0, 88.2, 96.0 kHz 
 ~16kHz (Frequency Response) 
   
*Optical In:* 
 24-bit / 44,1 / 48 / 88,2 / 96 kHz​
 Output

 5.1 Channels​
 Stereo​
 5.1 Channels​
 Stereo​
 Max. Headphone Output

 -​
 High Gain 
 120Ω - 600Ω 

 Low Gain 
 16Ω - 120Ω​
 -​
 High Gain 
 150Ω - 600Ω 

 Low Gain 
 32Ω - 150Ω​
 Portability

 -​
 Yes​
 -​
 -​
 Battery Life

 -​
 Up to 8 hours​
 -​
 -​
 *KEY FEATURES*

 Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR)

 116dB​
 120dB (DAC)​
 100dB​
 120dB (DAC)​
 Upmixing of Stereo to Virtual Surround

 -​
 Yes​
 -​
 Yes​
 Upmixing of Stereo to Multi-channels

 Yes​
 -​
 Yes​
 -​
 Connectivity Options (Main)

 *Headphone:*
1 x Amplified 3.5mm jack 
*Speaker Out:*
 3 x 3.5mm jacks (Front,Rear,C/Sub) 
*Line / Mic In:*
 1 x 3.5mm jack 
*Optical Out:*
 1 x TOSLINK 
*Optical In:*
 1 x TOSLINK​
 *microUSB* 

*Line / Mic / Optical In:*
 1 x 3.5mm jack 
*Headphone Out :*
 2 x 3.5mm jacks 
*Line / Optical Out :*
 1 x 3.5mm jack 
*USB Host Streaming:*
 1 x Type-A USB Port​
 *Headphone Out*:
 1 x 3.5mm jack 
*Line Out :* 
 2 x RCA jacks (Front Out) 
 1 x 3.5mm ( Rear L/R ) 
 1 x 3.5mm (C / Sub) 
*Line In:* 
 1 x 3.5mm jack 
*Microphone In:*
 1 x 3.5mm jack 
*Optical Out:*
 1 x TOSLINK​
 *microUSB* 
   
*Line / Optical In:*
 1 x 3.5mm jack 
   
*Line / Optical Out :*
 1 x 3.5mm jack 
   
*4-pole Headphone-out with Mic:*
 1 x 3.5mm jack 
   
*Dedicated Mic In :*
 1 x 3.5mm jack​
 CrystalVoice

 Yes​
 Yes​
 Yes​
 Yes​
 Scout Mode

 Yes​
 Yes​
 Yes​
 Yes​
 EAX

 EAX Advanced 5.0​
 -​
 -​
 -​
 Dolby Digital Technology

 Dolby Digital Live Encoding​
 -​
 Dolby Digital Live Encoding​
 -​
 DTS Connect Encoding

 Yes​
 -​
 -​
 -​
 Audio Fidelity

 Up to 24-bit / 192kHz​
 Up to 24-bit / 192kHz​
 Up to 24-bit / 96kHz​
 Up to 24-bit / 192kHz​
 Audio Codec

 -​
 AAC 
 SBC 
 aptX Low Latency​
 -​
 -​
 *SOFTWARE & COMPATIBILITY*

 Included / Downloadable Software

 -​
 Sound Blaster E-series Control Panel​
 -​
 BlasterX Acoustic Engine Pro Software for Windows​
 Compatible Platform

 PC - PCIe x1​
 USB 2.0 
 USB 3.0 
_Bluetooth_​
 USB 2.0​
 USB 2.0 
 USB 3.0​
 Supported Gaming Consoles

 -​
 -​
 -​
 PlayStation® 4 
 Xbox One​


----------



## StudioSound

rolkin said:


> Thanks for the reply, Studio. I've been reading several articles that have sounded promising from Valve and Oculus about supporting HRTF or 3D audio for VR. They sound pretty serious about it. So I was thinking that Unreal4, which has been pretty popular for VR would allow positional audio in most of the games built on it. Also, I'm a huge BF fan and with BF1 coming out in Oct. I was hoping to get some positional audio support in it, like BF2/3 had.


 
 Yes, VR may finally see a resurgence in good gaming audio.
 There's been a void the past decade or so ever since Vista killed DirectSound3D Hardware support.
  
_Battlefield One_ is sure to support Dolby Atmos, just as _Star Wars Battlefront_ does.
 However I have no idea how that is currently implemented in the game as it's not something that I play.
 I don't know if you need an Atmos-capable receiver, or if it can be processed by the game.
  
_Overwatch_ (not something that I play either) also supports Atmos for headphones on PC, and that's processed entirely by the game so it's just an option that you can enable in the menus.
  
 But I don't think that games including good headphone audio is enough to replace a sound card.
 There are still many, many games out there which have bad headphone support, but do have 5.1/7.1 capabilities, which a sound card can then create a good headphone-optimized binaural mix from.
  


rolkin said:


> Since the sound blaster has a built in headphone amp? It sounds like the cheapest way to drive the DT770's. From this article the review showed a pretty good sound stage considering they are closed headphones.


 
 The E5/G5 seem like great devices if you want an external USB sound card (DAC) with a headphone amp built in.
 The main differentiators between them seem to be that the G5 supports 4-pole headsets, while the E5 has a battery and Bluetooth support.
 If they update the E5 to support 4-pole headsets, or release a higher-end G model, I will probably upgrade to one of them from my Sound Blaster Z, as that would be very convenient for my setup.
  


rolkin said:


> They seem to like to make it as confusing as possible to select the right product. I tried doing a comparison, but some support Virtual Surround, which I think is not what I want? And only the Newer Zx supports EAX 5.0, but then it uses the SoundCore3D DAC? I thought that was the one on the Recon3D that someone said to avoid...


 
 The Sound Core3D chip is an audio processor, not a DAC.
 It's the chip they use to handle things like the virtual surround processing.
 Prior to that it was the 20K1/20K2 chips in the X-Fi cards, and now the Axx1 chips in the latest devices.
  
 The last chips to have EAX processing were the 20K1/20K2.
 EAX is "supported" on the newer Sound Core3D devices - and almost certainly with the Axx1 devices too even if they don't mention it - but it is now software emulation running on your CPU.
 The software emulation gives you back EAX effects in old games, but they don't sound the same as running on real hardware. (20K1/20K2)
 All the effects sound really exaggerated in the software emulation, there's no subtlety any more. I'll try and record some clips to make a comparison video.
  
 But all of this only applies if you are playing old games. EAX is not supported in any game past ~2008 or so.
  


rolkin said:


> Then the G5 doesn't have the SBX studio which is what I thought I wanted for the Headphone surround function, but it has BlasterX software instead? I'm guessing this is for console support. Someone else was recommending the Omni, but it doesn't look like it has a headphone amp on it.


 
 It looks like it's just a rebranding of SBX. They even have an SBX button on the side of the device. It has all the same settings as SBX Pro Studio.
  


blueninja0 said:


> I guess my wording was not clear. What I meant was that the sound virtualization is 100% software and could be implemented independently of the sound card in use, but Creative, in their incompetence, chose not to.
> I would gladly pay for the software.


 
 "Product isn't what I want it to be, therefore incompetence."
 I agree that it would be good if they offered a product which lets you do the SBX processing on your CPU and output that stereo signal to a device of your choosing, but that's not what X-Fi MB3 is.
 X-Fi MB3 is designed to work with specific on-board audio codecs. I don't know the reason for that.
 Perhaps there is some audio processing hardware that they are able to leverage to take some load off the CPU? Perhaps it's a licensing deal? Perhaps they want you to buy their own hardware if you're choosing to buy an external audio device rather than a software package to work with hardware built into the majority of PCs.
 As I said, I don't know the specifics. But I doubt that it's _incompetence_.


----------



## StudioSound

Here's a comparison between hardware EAX, software-emulated EAX, and how things sound without EAX support.
 The differences are less obvious due to YouTube's compression, since things like reverb are most affected by audio compression, but it should hopefully be pretty clear in some of the examples.
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYDmcR8gJyU


----------



## BlueNinja0

studiosound said:


> "Product isn't what I want it to be, therefore incompetence." I agree that it would be good if they offered a product which lets you do the SBX processing on your CPU and output that stereo signal to a device of your choosing, but that's not what X-Fi MB3 is.
> X-Fi MB3 is designed to work with specific on-board audio codecs. I don't know the reason for that.
> Perhaps there is some audio processing hardware that they are able to leverage to take some load off the CPU? Perhaps it's a licensing deal? Perhaps they want you to buy their own hardware if you're choosing to buy an external audio device rather than a software package to work with hardware built into the majority of PCs.
> As I said, I don't know the specifics. But I doubt that it's _incompetence_.


 
  
 I'm sorry but the virtualization on X-Fi MB3 is software. Those on-board audio codecs are no more than simple DACs. They mostly have no integrated specialized hardware for headphone surround virtualization. It can easily be achieved with negligible performance compromise on CPU. Many companies do it in their game engines and recently it showed up on the likes of Razer Surround and X-Fi MB3.


----------



## StudioSound

blueninja0 said:


> I'm sorry but the virtualization on X-Fi MB3 is software. Those on-board audio codecs are no more than simple DACs. They mostly have no integrated specialized hardware for headphone surround virtualization. It can easily be achieved with negligible performance compromise on CPU. Many companies do it in their game engines and recently it showed up on the likes of Razer Surround and X-Fi MB3.


 
 I was just throwing out possibilities for why they might not offer software that works with any device.
 I expect that the most likely answer is that they want you to buy their hardware.
 If you buy X-Fi MB3 and stick with your on-board audio, well they get a $30 software license from you when you might have otherwise spent nothing.
 If you're buying new audio hardware, they want your $200 or whatever you might spend. They don't want to only collect $30 when you go and give $200 to another company.


----------



## BlueNinja0

studiosound said:


> I was just throwing out possibilities for why they might not offer software that works with any device.
> I expect that the most likely answer is that they want you to buy their hardware.
> If you buy X-Fi MB3 and stick with your on-board audio, well they get a $30 software license from you when you might have otherwise spent nothing.
> If you're buying new audio hardware, they want your $200 or whatever you might spend. They don't want to only collect $30 when you go and give $200 to another company.


 
 Well, with that they're just losing sales from external DAC users that wouldn't probably buy Creative hardware anyway.
 They could at the very least provide a trial so that we could try if the software works with the virtual audio cables mentioned a few posts back. I'm not gonna pay $30 just to find out it doesn't work.


----------



## Rolkin

studiosound said:


> The Sound Core3D chip is an audio processor, not a DAC.


 
 Whoops, I meant DSP not DAC.

 Hmm, I assume by 4-pole you mean an 1/8in for headphone and mic setup. 4-pole makes me think of switches...

 OK, So EAX is out unless I want to re-live the glory days.

 The G5 has a better amp as far as I can tell and since it's targeted towards consoles it should be doing all processing onboard? But for console users it also doesn't support Dolby surround like the Mixamp does? (It was in a review I read).

 -------------------
 Ok, I was about set on the G5 when I read another review on Head-fi saying that the Omni is the same thing to a PC user for less. But then I remembered something important. The issue with the VR is the max latency time of 22ms, but it's prefered to be under 11ms.

 All of the USB feed audio devices are around 21.7ms per: www.presonus.com/community/Learn/The-Truth-About-Digital-Audio-Latency
  
 If that's true then only the Sound Blaster Z will work for all of the applications that I want to use it for... It looks like the choice was made for me, as VR is the most important aspect to 3D audio for me moving into the future.

 **Edit

 Ahh! I just remembered that the 1/8" on the HTC goes to a USB passthrough... So... where does that audio come from. Hmm, I remember them saying that they had to by-pass the OS to get frame times lowered, but that's for the HDMI video...audio HDMI, that's probably where it comes in at.

 I mean you could run a Headphone extension cable across the 15ft cable and plug it into the Sound Blaster Z. Not sure if you can selected a different audio source in game, or if it just takes the Windows default.

 I'm moving over the weekend so everything is packed, up and I can't test anything right now.


----------



## StudioSound

rolkin said:


> The G5 has a better amp as far as I can tell and since it's targeted towards consoles it should be doing all processing onboard? But for console users it also doesn't support Dolby surround like the Mixamp does? (It was in a review I read).


 
 I think the difference is that the E5 is an iOS/Android-certified USB device while the G5 is certified to work with consoles via USB.
 It only appears as a stereo device to them via USB however, and does not have dolby digital decoding, so there's no way for the consoles to send it a 5.1 signal.
 Apparently Creative are planning to add DD decoding, which would then let it accept a (compressed) 5.1 signal from the console and apply SBX Surround, but I'd never buy a product based on something that may or may not happen.
  
 I have no idea how the Astro Mixamp compares. It has USB support, but I don't know if it appears to the PC as a 2.0, 5.1, or 7.1 device.
 So long as it appears as a 5.1/7.1 device, you will be able to get lossless audio.
 I haven't heard many positive things about its audio quality however, and I don't particularly like how Dolby Headphone processing sounds.
 While it is arguably somewhat better than SBX for absolute positioning, DH adds reverb which makes everything sound like you're inside an empty room - even outdoor environments.
  
 Same thing goes for the Omni, I have no idea what that appears to the system as. I'd assume a 5.1 device.
 There's also the Sound BlasterX G1 (new?) which is a very basic, but also inexpensive device if you just want to plug in a 4-pole headset. (or presumably headphone/mic via a splitter)
 Neither of these devices appear to use one of Creative's DSP chips, so I'm guessing they are just basic USB audio devices and SBX is processed on the CPU instead of in the device.
 The CPU requirements of this are probably minimal these days, but I suspect that it will have a negative effect on latency.
  
  


rolkin said:


> Hmm, I assume by 4-pole you mean an 1/8in for headphone and mic setup. 4-pole makes me think of switches...


 
 Yes, it supports the in-line microphones that most new headphones (or after-market cables for headphones with replaceable cables) seem to have.
 With the way things are set up, it would be very convenient for me to do that. I have USB access at my desk but if I'm running an analog mic connection to the PC that would have to be a 15ft cable.
  
  
 Quote:


rolkin said:


> Ok, I was about set on the G5 when I read another review on Head-fi saying that the Omni is the same thing to a PC user for less. But then I remembered something important. The issue with the VR is the max latency time of 22ms, but it's prefered to be under 11ms.
> 
> All of the USB feed audio devices are around 21.7ms per: www.presonus.com/community/Learn/The-Truth-About-Digital-Audio-Latency
> 
> ...


 
 Most (all?) VR games will have a sound engine designed for VR - which means proper binaural headphone audio.
 Sound cards will be for new non-VR games that don't offer good headphone audio, or the majority of games created up to this point.
  
 What you need really depends on what you're going to be playing. The farther back you go with the games you play, the more important a sound card becomes.
 They're not unnecessary (at least not yet) but things like VR's push for headphone-optimized audio will perhaps either see a new generation of hardware to support it, or (more likely) see a push for audio running on the GPU to do raytraced audio. (something NVIDIA have announced for their new 1000-series GPUs)
 But again, that's something the games will have to support. It won't be universal like Creative's 5.1/7.1 input --> Headphone output processing.


----------



## thuNDa

> Originally Posted by *StudioSound* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> It looks like it's just a rebranding of SBX. They even have an SBX button on the side of the device. It has all the same settings as SBX Pro Studio.


 
  
 Unfortunatly it's not just a rebrand, or else i would have a G5 by now, and wouldn't use my SB-Z anymore.
 And you couldn't even think about using it with only 33%, which is the sweetspot on the SB-Z for me(well it was 30%, but then i read your post about 33% to be best, however you discovered this
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).


----------



## alfa42

So, after reading quite few posts in this thread I'm actually more confused than I was before :__
  
 I'm trying to figure out if it really it's worth the investment in a SBZ card for DSP processing in games (and then hook it to Modi/Magni stack) or just skip the SBZ and use Virtual Surround like the Razer one for the games.
  
 Perhaps the software solution add more latency compared to the SBZ card? (but then if I read correctly, the new SBZ rely heavily also on SW.... so, I'm lost).
  
 P.S: One of the things I learned is that you can use a dedicated Sound Card for DSP and pass it to a external DAC with S/PIDF


----------



## BlueNinja0

alfa42 said:


> P.S: One of the things I learned is that you can use a dedicated Sound Card for DSP and pass it to a external DAC with S/PIDF


 
  
 You can pass it through USB too, if you set it up in Windows.


----------



## octiceps

blueninja0 said:


> You can pass it through USB too, if you set it up in Windows.




If you're referring to Stereo Mix, don't do that because even though virtual surround works it sounds like ****.


----------



## Yethal

octiceps said:


> If you're referring to Stereo Mix, don't do that because even though virtual surround works it sounds like ****.


 

 It can be done by forcing the What U Hear virtual device to output to the usb DAC.


----------



## octiceps

yethal said:


> It can be done by forcing the What U Hear virtual device to output to the usb DAC.


 
  
 What U Hear is what Stereo Mix is called when you install Creative drivers, and it still sounds like crap, much worse than virtual surround running natively. I've tried it with various Creative sounds cards redirecting to USB DACs in the past.


----------



## BlueNinja0

octiceps said:


> What U Hear is what Stereo Mix is called when you install Creative drivers, and it still sounds like crap, much worse than virtual surround running natively. I've tried it with various Creative sounds cards redirecting to USB DACs in the past.


 
  
 Please try it again with up to date drivers. I did not do an in-depth analysis but it sounds the same as directly from the sound-card to me. That said, virtualization sounds horrible regardless, specially for music.


----------



## Yethal

octiceps said:


> What U Hear is what Stereo Mix is called when you install Creative drivers, and it still sounds like crap, much worse than virtual surround running natively. I've tried it with various Creative sounds cards redirecting to USB DACs in the past.


 

 Haven't used the SBZ personally but on my X7 What U Hear outputs exactly the same signal as the headphone output.


----------



## octiceps

Tested last year with Audigy 2 ZS and X-Fi Titanium HD using latest W7 drivers. VSS worked over USB DAC but sounded overly processed compared to sound card only, very metallic and reverby. Also noticeably higher latency.


----------



## Yethal

octiceps said:


> Tested last year with Audigy 2 ZS and X-Fi Titanium HD using latest W7 drivers. VSS worked over USB DAC but sounded overly processed compared to sound card only, very metallic and reverby. Also noticeably higher latency.


 

 Latency was expected however the difference in sound is strange considering the fact that What U Hear is supposed to be the exact audiostream being sent to the card's internal dac.


----------



## octiceps

yethal said:


> Latency was expected however the difference in sound is strange considering the fact that What U Hear is supposed to be the exact audiostream being sent to the card's internal dac.




IDK why it sounded as bad as it did, but I'm not the only one. @NamelessPFG noted the same thing:



namelesspfg said:


> reddfour said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding the section "*Method for using sound card as DSP to output to any audio device, including USB ones, in Windows 7"*
> ...


----------



## alfa42

octiceps said:


> IDK why it sounded as bad as it did, but I'm not the only one. @NamelessPFG noted the same thing:


 
  
 That said, I think this leaves us only one alternative for the cases when you use external DACs (software based Virtual Surround). For the rest of the cases, when you don't use external DACs, the sound cards would be a good option for Virtual Surround and low latency :__
  
 Well. when I build up the PC I'll make a few experiments with the on-board DAC + SW Virtual Surround and external DAC + SW Virtual Surround to see if the possible latency it's worth it for me or I'll just skip it and play without any DSP =)
  
 Thanks guys!


----------



## Yethal

octiceps said:


> IDK why it sounded as bad as it did, but I'm not the only one. @NamelessPFG noted the same thing:


 

 I'll run some tests and report back in a minute.


----------



## StudioSound

blueninja0 said:


> That said, virtualization sounds horrible regardless, specially for music.


 
 Sounds good to me with 5.1 music sources.
 With a 2.0 source SBX Surround acts as a spatializer which will of course sound bad.


----------



## Yethal

octiceps said:


> IDK why it sounded as bad as it did, but I'm not the only one. @NamelessPFG noted the same thing:


 
 I recorded a quick sample from Battlefield 4. File recorded at 44.1kHz 16bit PCM using What U Hear virtual device as input in Audacity. All settings on default.
  You can download it from here.
 In the beginning I picked up the M82A3, shot down the drone and threw a Hand Flare on the ground. Afterwards I started rotating so that the flare sound would travel around my head.


----------



## thuNDa

For me it could have the best SQ in the world, but delayed sound in games is very bad.
 Therefore i couldn't use Razer Surround, which has delay on my PC:
  
 (at half speed)
 https://youtu.be/0R6NFxgIk-o?t=40


----------



## BlueNinja0

studiosound said:


> Sounds good to me with 5.1 music sources.
> With a 2.0 source SBX Surround acts as a spatializer which will of course sound bad.


 

 Yeah, I was mainly talking about 2.0 sources.
  


alfa42 said:


> That said, I think this leaves us only one alternative for the cases when you use external DACs (software based Virtual Surround). For the rest of the cases, when you don't use external DACs, the sound cards would be a good option for Virtual Surround and low latency :__


 

 Yup, and that's sad. Specially because software based Virtual Surround seems to add quite a lot of latency (at least Razer Surround does). Has anyone testes the Creative X-Fi MB3 to check for latency?


----------



## Skippman

So I've been looking into getting a set of gaming headphones as I really need a mic for the games I'm playing (MWO, BF4, Star Citizen). I've been looking at the Kingston HyperX Cloud, Cloud II, and Revolver headphones. The Cloud and the Cloud II are only differentiated by an inline USB DAC that simulates 7.1 surround sound on their headphones.
  
 I'm currently running a Creative Labs Z card and I'm curious if I would even need the USB DSP/DAC to achieve the same thing with my sound card. Should I be able to get a better experience using just the sound card than using their inline DSP/DAC?


----------



## BlueNinja0

skippman said:


> So I've been looking into getting a set of gaming headphones as I really need a mic for the games I'm playing (MWO, BF4, Star Citizen). I've been looking at the Kingston HyperX Cloud, Cloud II, and Revolver headphones. The Cloud and the Cloud II are only differentiated by an inline USB DAC that simulates 7.1 surround sound on their headphones.
> 
> I'm currently running a Creative Labs Z card and I'm curious if I would even need the USB DSP/DAC to achieve the same thing with my sound card. Should I be able to get a better experience using just the sound card than using their inline DSP/DAC?


 
 By using a pair of USB headphones you'll completely bypass your sound card. You can probably achieve the same effect using just the sound card. The effects might sound different though.


----------



## Skippman

blueninja0 said:


> By using a pair of USB headphones you'll completely bypass your sound card. You can probably achieve the same effect using just the sound card. The effects might sound different though.


 
  
 I think I phrased this wrong, let me rephrase. 
  
 The headsets for PC gaming almost universally seem to include their own USB DSP/DAC. These boxes in turn have 3.5mm jacks on them that the headphones plug into. If I'm using a Creative Labs Z I don't think I'll need to use these DSP/DAC. I'm hoping I can achieve the same virtual 5.1/7.1 surround sound using the Creative software, but would like confirmation before I order anything.


----------



## BlueNinja0

skippman said:


> I think I phrased this wrong, let me rephrase.
> 
> The headsets for PC gaming almost universally seem to include their own USB DSP/DAC. These boxes in turn have 3.5mm jacks on them that the headphones plug into. If I'm using a Creative Labs Z I don't think I'll need to use these DSP/DAC. I'm hoping I can achieve the same virtual 5.1/7.1 surround sound using the Creative software, but would like confirmation before I order anything.


 

 I understand what you mean, yeah. If the headphones are standard 2.0 headphones yes, you can just plug them to your Creative and use it's surround virtualization instead.


----------



## thuNDa

Cloud 2 has a 4-pin 3.5mm plug, which is used for stereo + mic, so one would need an adaptor to make it work with the Soundblaster Z(splitting stereo and mic again).


----------



## Skippman

I ended up getting the Cloud Revolver. It's FANTASTIC. Extremely comfortable and great audio reproduction. Very happy with my purchase.


----------



## Skippman

Question. After reading the main post a second time I'm lead to believe that the Creative Labs Z card is technically inferior to my old X-Fi card? Is that true? I still have my X-Fi card around and could swap it out if there's an actual difference in quality between the two cards.


----------



## thuNDa

skippman said:


> Question. After reading the main post a second time I'm lead to believe that the Creative Labs Z card is technically inferior to my old X-Fi card? Is that true? I still have my X-Fi card around and could swap it out if there's an actual difference in quality between the two cards.


 
 Technically, it's only "inferior" when it comes to EAX-processing, which the SB-Z apparently can't do in hardware.
 X-Fi has CMSS-3D for virtual surround on headphones, SB-Z has SBX-Surround - the latter has by far a better SQ (IMHO).


----------



## ArcadeBR

Hey everyone, great thread was able to learn a lot from this but I still have a question, maybe someone had a similar situation and may be able to help me.
  
 So I've been reading a lot about DACs and External Soundcards because I just put together a new PC and I'm hearing a bit of hissing on both of my Headphones.
  
 I use two sets of headphones on my PC one is a newly acquired Sennheiser HD598 (amazing headphone) and the other is a Razer Kraken Pro headset, YES, it is a gaming headset and I know most of people here hate them however if you ask me they are preety decent for the 50 bucks (the mod mic alone costs that and at the time couldn't aford spending more than that) I paid for them and the mic actually sounds better than my friend's Sennheiser Gam3 Pro headset which sounds muffled and also the Razer is a lot more confortable (not more confortable than my HD598 though that thing is on a totally diferent level).
  
 So to the symptons, I read in a lot of sites (and on some comments here) that good quality headphones will sound everything that is sent by the soundcard (hence the hissing), however the hissing is a lot more pronounced on the Kraken Pro than on the HD598's, so that didn't make sense since the HD598's are supposed to be of better quality, then I learned that it might be related to the fact that the Razer has lower impedance (32 vs 50). Since I game a lot and when I do I use the Kraken for the mic the hissing blows my CS play for example since it is more noticeable on silent moments (when I need to hear them footsteps  ).
  
 My motherboard is the Gigabyte GA-Z170X Gaming 7 and I'm using it's on-board sound which is Creative Sound Core3D (CA0132 chip). I want to take my sound external either through a DAC or Ext. Soundcard, however on this thread I learned that the DAC won't support more than two channels through the S/PDIF out (unless the conditions described on the thread are met) and through USB it introduces some delay.
  
 I would like to know wether that Creative Chip is able to output more than 2 channels through the S/PDIF (so I would be good with a DAC) or in the case it can't output that many channels then wether I would be better with a Creative Omni or Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround.
  
 Thanks a lot for any help anyone is able to provide.


----------



## thuNDa

arcadebr said:


> I would like to know wether that Creative Chip is able to output more than 2 channels through the S/PDIF (so I would be good with a DAC) or in the case it can't output that many channels then wether I would be better with a Creative Omni or Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround.
> 
> Thanks a lot for any help anyone is able to provide.


 
  
 the virtual surround for headphones only contains 2-channels when it's processed.
 So you also need only these 2-channels to be passed through to the external DAC.
 If your onboardsound can output the processed audio through SPIDF is another question - the Soundblaster Z can, and for this you have to check the stereo-mix under "advanced settings" in the controlpanel.


----------



## ArcadeBR

thunda said:


> the virtual surround for headphones only contains 2-channels when it's processed.
> So you also need only these 2-channels to be passed through to the external DAC.
> If your onboardsound can output the processed audio through SPIDF is another question - the Soundblaster Z can, and for this you have to check the stereo-mix under "advanced settings" in the controlpanel.


 
 Ty for the tip, currently at work, will try that when I get home.


----------



## arandomguy

I'm wondering if anyone is aware of more information for the virtual surround options bundled with various motherboards.
  
 Gigabyte seems to bundle Creative xfi MB3 which there is plenty of information on.
  
 But
  
 Asus uses something called Sonic Studio II (https://www.asus.com/ca-en/support/faq/1015213/) 
  
 and
  
 MSI uses Nahimic (https://gaming.msi.com/features/nahimic)
  
 Are they just rebrands/reskins of something existing? Possibly Creative xfi MB3?


----------



## nugz

Hello everyone.  I'm not sure if this combination has been discussed on here before, but I would like to talk about my experience using the Earforce DSS2's stereo upmix capabilities, after initial processing via the highly rated CMSS3D.
  
 To start I will say that I own an X-Fi Titanium original (CMSS3D), Xonar DGX (Dolby Headphone), Logitech USB G430 USB DAC (Dolby Headphone), ALC1150 mobo (Dolby Home Theater), Earforce DSS (Dolby Headphone/O through toslink), Earforce DSS2 (Proprietary Dolby Implementation), and a couple of "true 7.1" discrete drive headsets (cringe).  The release of Dolby Atmos for Headphone was with Overwatch, and I also have many hours listened to that as well.
  
 Some people like to perfect their overclock, some people like to hear the most accurate reproduction of music, some want the highest refresh rate. I consider myself a connoisseur of game immersion, and sound is a huge part of that in my opinion.
  
 From what I can tell, all of the single-solution headphone surround sound implementations are severely lacking.  CMSS3D has _unmatched_ positional accuracy, but really poor resolution when it comes to depth and distance.  Everything is in the right place, but it sounds extremely flat. A visual analogy: CMSS3D is like looking at a painting, where hearing the world with your ears is like wearing a Rift.
  
 Dolby Headphone lacks the precise positional clarity of CMSS3D, but projects you positionally into the environment instead of feeling like you are staring at a flat screen.  However, even the lowest echo setting of this HRTF is far too strong, making any outside area sound like a concert hall designed to reverberate acoustics.
  
 I've also owned both the Tiamat and the Strix 7.1 (call me a sucker if you like), and, well, they are just sh**t, lets leave it at that.
  
 Enter the DSS2.
  
 After a lot of searching, researching, and money spent, I was ready to just settle on one of the two major technologies and give up my hope for truly immersive surround sound.  The DSS2 has actually been slammed for not bringing to the table the same Dolby Headphone technology we all are familiar with.  Instead, it offers a 4.1 HRTF that works as an upmixer or downmixer depending upon the input.  It has several speaker orientations that change how the sound is processed.
  
 A few months ago I wondered what would happen if I chained together different headphone surround DSPs.  Turns out CMSS3D to Dolby Headphone sounds wrong, and vice versa. No kidding, they really sound awful together.  Okay, bummer.  But what would happen if I fed CMSS3D (as stereo) into this virtual 4.1 upmixer?
  
 Magic.
  
 Two of my favorite test benches for surround sound are Far Cry (Primal), given the extreme amount of environmental noise variety. Also, Assassin's Creed (Unity), given the ambitious goal of accurately reproducing the sounds of a bustling, packed 18th century Paris (in 3rd person!).
  
 The sounds that seemed to be so piercingly directional melted into an appropriate fade according to their distance, and smoothly pan as your turn.  The heavy left-right effect of CMSS3D, where the center channel is thin and short, disappeared.  And best of all, the virtual upmix adds _NO _echo.
  
 In my opinion, the final product of this DSP/HRTF combination is a much more realistic and immersive headphone surround sound than any single vendor currently offers
  
 Long time lurker, first time poster, but I've learned alot from Head-Fi.  Thanks to @NamelessPFG whetting my appetite for immersive PC surround sound.


----------



## BlueNinja0

nugz said:


> A few months ago I wondered what would happen if I chained together different headphone surround DSPs.  Turns out CMSS3D to Dolby Headphone sounds wrong, and vice versa. No kidding, they really sound awful together.  Okay, bummer.  But what would happen if I fed CMSS3D (as stereo) into this 4.1 upmixer?
> Magic.


 
 I'm curious. So you're downmixing the game's surround to 2.0 through CMSS3D (with the positional cues), then upmixing to a 4.1 signal and then downmixing again to 2.0 for the headphones?


----------



## nugz

blueninja0 said:


> I'm curious. So you're downmixing the game's surround to 2.0 through CMSS3D (with the positional cues), then upmixing to a 4.1 signal and then downmixing again to 2.0 for the headphones?


 
  
 Almost, I think I'll need to go back and edit my word choices.  It's a "virtual 4.1" upmix, not actually upmixing to 4.1 and then back to stereo. It works the same way CMSS3D or Dolby would upmix stereo input to "virtual surround".


----------



## BlueNinja0

nugz said:


> Almost, I think I'll need to go back and edit my word choices.  It's a "virtual 4.1" upmix, not actually upmixing to 4.1 and then back to stereo. It works the same way CMSS3D or Dolby would upmix stereo input to "virtual surround".


 
  
 But, what's the point to upmix to virtual 4.1 if you're going to output it in 2.0?


----------



## Evshrug

Nugz,
I somewhat recently got a DSS2 too (that Newegg Rebate deal!), and agree it works pretty well. It has been maligned and given a poor rep in the past, but I agree it's pretty great in actual use.

One of the DSS2 myths is that it's a 4.1 surround device. That was brought about by bad marketing illustrations that don't show a center channel, but that came from trying to demonstrate how some of the speaker angles can be adjusted (obviously the center channel doesn't move). The DSS2 takes the full Dolby Digital Live input from optical, decodes it, uses a proprietary DSP by Cirrus Logic to make a HRTF/Virtual Surround mix for stereo headphones, and outputs that via a headphone jack. You can also connect a stereo input and have the DSS2 perform an EQ and a "simulated surround" from the stereo (I haven't tested that on the DSS2, but I typically read that as "try to make it sound as if it was coming from speakers in front of you and to the side, instead of a flat line from ear-to-ear inside your head.").

I'm guessing you used CMSS-3D to calculate the positional audio, and then connected that stereo feed to the DSS2 for more "simulated surround" processing layered on top? That would certainly make the CMSS-3D sound less dry... If you like the result, awesome! I haven't tried it myself, as I don't own any CMSS-3D devices.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Can someone recommend a virtual 5.1 - 7.1 software for Windows 10 that can give pinpoint directional for enemy's footsteps. I am tired of these guys hearing my footsteps even when I have dead silence on a mile away and pre-aimed at me. Game is Call of duty Black Ops 3. It's almost as if they are straight hacking, I only give them the benefit of the doubt because I have not seen them use it in person obviously. But sometimes it's just ridiculous how far away they hear me when I can't hear them. I see this through the kill cam after they kill me. I am a average 2.35 KD player and the guys I play with are usually 2.00-3.00 kd guys so it's not like I'm a complete newb at the game just complaining because I am getting killed. I am currently just using window 10 realtek driver for stereo output through optical connection. So I thought It's time that I up my gaming audio game and get a good gaming 5.1 software that pinpoints footsteps and directional audio. With the realtek drivers, I sometimes hear footsteps behind me when the enemy is to the side of me and etc. Completely messed up obviously.

I currently have Chord mojo as dac/amp through optical connection and picking up Ether C soon.


----------



## Fegefeuer

get a cheap x-fi titanium and use CMSS-3D 7.1 if you are into competitiveness. It'll reveal the most out of all current solutions. SBX from the SBZ, X7 is the best for immersion.


----------



## SearchOfSub

fegefeuer said:


> get a cheap x-fi titanium and use CMSS-3D 7.1 if you are into competitiveness. It'll reveal the most out of all current solutions. SBX from the SBZ, X7 is the best for immersion.






Looks like its just what I needed. Rep'd for good recommendation. Happy listening!


----------



## Fegefeuer

Remember to only grab one of these (all are PCIe):
  
 X-Fi Titanium
 X-Fi Titanium HD ("only" 5.1!)
 X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion
 X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Professional
 The last 3 have 64MB X-Ram onboard. Doesn't matter nowadays but what could matter is the 7.1 support which the HD lacks. 
  
 All these cards can be gotten for very cheap. Friend of mine bought his a few days ago for mere 15€. 
  
 Remember to install Daniel K's X-Fi Pack 3.8 and skip most of the stuff that gets installed. Driver, control panel, console, Alchemy matter most. 
  
 If you have any problems regarding that installation just ask here.


----------



## SearchOfSub

I just got a back offer from seller for Titanium Hd for $105.00 - Just used for testing to see if it works. Pretty much brand new. Just quick question before I pull the plug on Titanium HD. 

I am planning to use it with Chord Mojo through coaxial. Will the CMSS 3D still work this way? so the setup will be


Titanium HD to Mojo to heaephones Thanks again.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Titanium HD has an *optical* out which delivers CMSS-3D Headphone properly. However 105 Dollars is way too much. They go for 50 to 60 Dollars here in Germany. Why should it be more expensive in the US?


----------



## BlueNinja0

Just want to add that I tested Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 with my ODAC (and my Realtek onboard sound card which I think it's only needed for the application to start) and it worked nicely! No audio latency that I could notice or anything. I tested it with BF4.
  
 I can finally remove my old PCI X-Fi XtremeMusic from my PC.


----------



## StudioSound

blueninja0 said:


> Just want to add that I tested Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 with my ODAC (and my Realtek onboard sound card which I think it's only needed for the application to start) and it worked nicely! No audio latency that I could notice or anything. I tested it with BF4.
> 
> I can finally remove my old PCI X-Fi XtremeMusic from my PC.


 
  
 If you're outputting directly to your ODAC, you will only be getting stereo sound from the games.
 MB3 only supports surround sound when outputting to on-board audio codecs.


----------



## BlueNinja0

studiosound said:


> If you're outputting directly to your ODAC, you will only be getting stereo sound from the games.
> MB3 only supports surround sound when outputting to on-board audio codecs.


 
  
 I thought that too, but somehow I'm clearly getting surround sound. I don't know how the Windows sound API works, but apparently games can output 7.1 sound to a 2.0 device. Now, I've only tested it with 2 applications: Battlefield 4 and Foobar (with a 7.1 speaker test file), and there's a clear distinction between SBX ProStudio Surround enabled and disabled. I can record a video on BF4 to show you if you're curious.
 Games that follow Windows configuration to decide to output stereo or surround might not work. Can you suggest me a small game or application to test it?
  
 These are the settings I'm using:


----------



## thuNDa

of course you get an effect, but it's not the sum of calculations based on multichannel-input(from the game -> into windows mixer-> into mb3 software).


----------



## BlueNinja0

thunda said:


> of course you get an effect, but it's not the sum of calculations based on multichannel-input(from the game -> into windows mixer-> into mb3 software).


 
  
 There is a clear distinction from sounds coming from the front vs the back. The MB3 application is clearly getting the 7.1 channels somehow. I'll record a video to show you guys later. I also thought it would not work.


----------



## thuNDa

blueninja0 said:


> There is a clear distinction from sounds coming from the front vs the back. The MB3 application is clearly getting the 7.1 channels somehow. I'll record a video to show you guys later. I also thought it would not work.


 
 But have you set BF4 to "surround" in the audio options?
 That's where it is outputing multichannel.


----------



## BlueNinja0

thunda said:


> But have you set BF4 to "surround" in the audio options?
> That's where it is outputing multichannel.


 

 Yes I did ofc. Otherwise I would only be feeding 2.0 to the SBX Surround.


----------



## StudioSound

blueninja0 said:


> I thought that too, but somehow I'm clearly getting surround sound. I don't know how the Windows sound API works, but apparently games can output 7.1 sound to a 2.0 device. Now, I've only tested it with 2 applications: Battlefield 4 and Foobar (with a 7.1 speaker test file), and there's a clear distinction between SBX ProStudio Surround enabled and disabled. I can record a video on BF4 to show you if you're curious.
> Games that follow Windows configuration to decide to output stereo or surround might not work. Can you suggest me a small game or application to test it?
> 
> These are the settings I'm using:


 
 Open up Windows' Audio Control Panel and see whether the "Sound Blaster X-Fi MB 3" audio device is configured as Stereo or 5.1/7.1
 Unless this has changed in a recent update, it only lets you select 5.1/7.1 if you're using a supported audio codec as the output device.


----------



## BlueNinja0

studiosound said:


> Open up Windows' Audio Control Panel and see whether the "Sound Blaster X-Fi MB 3" audio device is configured as Stereo or 5.1/7.1
> Unless this has changed in a recent update, it only lets you select 5.1/7.1 if you're using a supported audio codec as the output device.


 

  
  
 Yes, only Stereo when choosing the ODAC as the output device, and it allows me to select 7.1 if I set the output device to the Realtek, but only if I also set the Realtek for 7.1 output.
  
 That would not make much sense though. If the only output it allows is the Realtek, then why would it allow me to choose the ODAC in here?

  
  
 And the first option also doesn't make much sense, since we can only select MB3 as the only option...


----------



## StudioSound

blueninja0 said:


> Yes, only Stereo when choosing the ODAC as the output device, and it allows me to select 7.1 if I set the output device to the Realtek, but only if I also set the Realtek for 7.1 output.
> That would not make much sense though. If the only output it allows is the Realtek, then why would it allow me to choose the ODAC in here?
> 
> And the first option also doesn't make much sense, since we can only select MB3 as the only option...


 
  
 You can still apply all the other effects if you're outputting to another device, but if you want 5.1/7.1 downmixed via SBX Surround for headphones, you need to output to your on-board audio codec.
 It's a stupid limitation, but that's how it is. I speculated why that might be earlier in this topic.
 I don't know why there's a section to select an input device.
  
 Your on-board audio codec may have a "what you hear" or "stereo mix" device that you might be able to forward the output of to your ODAC.


----------



## BlueNinja0

studiosound said:


> You can still apply all the other effects if you're outputting to another device, but if you want 5.1/7.1 downmixed via SBX Surround for headphones, you need to output to your on-board audio codec.
> It's a stupid limitation, but that's how it is. I speculated why that might be earlier in this topic.
> I don't know why there's a section to select an input device.
> 
> Your on-board audio codec may have a "what you hear" or "stereo mix" device that you might be able to forward the output of to your ODAC.


 
  
 I thought that's how it worked too. But I tested it with just the ODAC and somehow it's working...
 I made this video to show you, first with virtual surround off, and then on:

  
 Either I'm crazy or there is clearly back/forth audio cues when SBX is on.
  
 And know what's even funnier? You don't even need any onboard audio active at all, I completely disabled my internal Realtek soundcard on the BIOS to test it out and the virtual surround works the same... (you have to circumvent a certain DRM though)
  
 Now, how could this be working? I'm on Windows 10, which I know have some sound API improvements and new functionality. It's also worth note that Creative updated recently the X-Fi MB3 application to be fully compatible with Windows 10. What's your thoughts?


----------



## Evshrug

Just a theory... Maybe the game is producing sounds in all directions, passing along all the "voices" to the X-Fi MB3, which processes the sound and outputs in processed stereo (thus 2.0 output), which is then sent to the ODAC?

I don't know all the engineering details, but at some point the game's audio director/conductor decides where a sound is coming from. In console games, this direction is jammed into 5 or 7 directional "channels" before encoding the 5.1 or 7.1 bitstream down into Dolby (digital live) or DTS (Connect) for the purpose of eventually reproducing the sound in a home theater surround system. PC games are different... Or at least, I think it's logical that they should be. They're usually NOT connected to AVRs, but they are usually connected to two desktop speakers or a pair of headphones, no need for Dolby/DTS theater-style reproduction. If the X-Fi MB3 is the sound processor (which doesn't come with Dolby/DTS license), then it makes sense that the output would be stereo and said output would work with an ODAC or any DAC.


----------



## Yethal

evshrug said:


> Just a theory... Maybe the game is producing sounds in all directions, passing along all the "voices" to the X-Fi MB3, which processes the sound and outputs in processed stereo (thus 2.0 output), which is then sent to the ODAC?
> 
> I don't know all the engineering details, but at some point the game's audio director/conductor decides where a sound is coming from. In console games, this direction is jammed into 5 or 7 directional "channels" before encoding the 5.1 or 7.1 bitstream down into Dolby (digital live) or DTS (Connect) for the purpose of eventually reproducing the sound in a home theater surround system. PC games are different... Or at least, I think it's logical that they should be. They're usually NOT connected to AVRs, but they are usually connected to two desktop speakers or a pair of headphones, no need for Dolby/DTS theater-style reproduction. If the X-Fi MB3 is the sound processor (which doesn't come with Dolby/DTS license), then it makes sense that the output would be stereo and said output would work with an ODAC or any DAC.


 

 Games did that back in OpenAL times. Now sound engine renders the output already divided up into discrete channels.


----------



## BlueNinja0

evshrug said:


> Just a theory... Maybe the game is producing sounds in all directions, passing along all the "voices" to the X-Fi MB3, which processes the sound and outputs in processed stereo (thus 2.0 output), which is then sent to the ODAC?
> 
> I don't know all the engineering details, but at some point the game's audio director/conductor decides where a sound is coming from. In console games, this direction is jammed into 5 or 7 directional "channels" before encoding the 5.1 or 7.1 bitstream down into Dolby (digital live) or DTS (Connect) for the purpose of eventually reproducing the sound in a home theater surround system. PC games are different... Or at least, I think it's logical that they should be. They're usually NOT connected to AVRs, but they are usually connected to two desktop speakers or a pair of headphones, no need for Dolby/DTS theater-style reproduction. If the X-Fi MB3 is the sound processor (which doesn't come with Dolby/DTS license), then it makes sense that the output would be stereo and said output would work with an ODAC or any DAC.


 
  
 As Yethal said, back then (and still today on Source games) games that used OpenAL or DirectSound had complete 3D sound. That means 360 degrees around you and even up and bellow. That 3D information was fed to the sound card and stuff like CMSS-3D could take advantage of that to create an awesome virtual surround experience. Today games pre-render the sound in-engine and output it at most as 7.1 channels (as is the case for BF4).
  
 My bet is that games that have stereo vs surround settings in-game, can output surround sound even if the default output device is set to 2.0 in Windows. I have yet to test it on games that configure themselves based on the Windows configuration. Anyone wants to recommend me one game that does so that I can test it and report back?


----------



## Yethal

blueninja0 said:


> As Yethal said, back then (and still today on Source games) games that used OpenAL or DirectSound had complete 3D sound. That means 360 degrees around you and even up and bellow. That 3D information was fed to the sound card and stuff like CMSS-3D could take advantage of that to create an awesome virtual surround experience. Today games pre-render the sound in-engine and output it at most as 7.1 channels (as is the case for BF4).
> 
> My bet is that games that have stereo vs surround settings in-game, can output surround sound even if the default output device is set to 2.0 in Windows. I have yet to test it on games that configure themselves based on the Windows configuration. Anyone wants to recommend me one game that does so that I can test it and report back?


 

 IIRC Rainbow Six Siege does that.


----------



## BlueNinja0

yethal said:


> IIRC Rainbow Six Siege does that.


 

 Unfortunately I don't have that game. Anyone knows a quick and dirty app or free game I can test this on?


----------



## Yethal

blueninja0 said:


> Unfortunately I don't have that game. Anyone knows a quick and dirty app or free game I can test this on?


 

 Dirty Bomb?


----------



## StudioSound

blueninja0 said:


> I thought that's how it worked too. But I tested it with just the ODAC and somehow it's working...
> I made this video to show you, first with virtual surround off, and then on:
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 SBX is acting as a spatializer when set like this. It's a really good spatializer, but a spatializer nonetheless.
 A game can't send 5.1/7.1 audio to a stereo device. The Windows device settings override anything that a game can do.
 Your video doesn't sound like proper 7.1 SBX Surround at all.
  


yethal said:


> Games did that back in OpenAL times. Now sound engine renders the output already divided up into discrete channels.


 
 Correct. That's how things used to work with DirectSound3D/OpenAL and CMSS-3D on the X-Fi cards.
 Now your sound card (or software) can only take a 5.1/7.1 signal and mix it down.
  
 What a game can do, and I believe one or two games do this now (_Overwatch_ and _Battlefront_) is do the virtual surround processing in the game itself.
 This allows it to use the discrete 3D sound data before it's mixed down to 5.1/7.1, and output that to your headphones, but that's via the Dolby Atmos option, not the "surround" output.
 The majority of games just output a basic stereo mix when the headphone mode is selected, which is why you need a sound card (or software) to take 5.1/7.1 from the game and create a binaural headphone mix.


----------



## Yethal

> Originally Posted by *StudioSound* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> What a game can do, and I believe one or two games do this now (_Overwatch_ and _Battlefront_) is do the virtual surround processing in the game itself.
> This allows it to use the discrete 3D sound data before it's mixed down to 5.1/7.1, and output that to your headphones, but that's via the Dolby Atmos option, not the "surround" output.
> The majority of games just output a basic stereo mix when the headphone mode is selected, which is why you need a sound card (or software) to take 5.1/7.1 from the game and create a binaural headphone mix.


 
 Technology You're referring to is called Dolby Atmos and currently only Overwatch supports it for headphones (Battlefront is Home Cinema only).


----------



## Evshrug

studiosound said:


> Correct. That's how things used to work with DirectSound3D/OpenAL and CMSS-3D on the X-Fi cards.
> Now your sound card (or software) can only take a 5.1/7.1 signal and mix it down.



Yes, thanks for pointing it out but I already know this. I suppose I was just saying that I hoped X-Fi MB3 was grabbing the audio before Windows/Microsoft got its grubby hands on it, like ASIO and WASAPI do, but I guess there still (mostly) hasn't been a solution since Vista changed the audio stack.



blueninja0 said:


> As Yethal said, back then (and still today on Source games) games that used OpenAL or DirectSound had complete 3D sound. That means 360 degrees around you and even up and bellow. That 3D information was fed to the sound card and stuff like CMSS-3D could take advantage of that to create an awesome virtual surround experience. Today games pre-render the sound in-engine and output it at most as 7.1 channels (as is the case for BF4).
> 
> My bet is that games that have stereo vs surround settings in-game, can output surround sound even if the default output device is set to 2.0 in Windows. I have yet to test it on games that configure themselves based on the Windows configuration. Anyone wants to recommend me one game that does so that I can test it and report back?



OpenAL/DirectSound/Aureal3D all were BETTER than 360°, since 360° only describes a circle/ring rather than a sphere. But you knew that, I'm just saying you don't have to explain that to me.

I was not into PC gaming during the XP era, so I missed the heyday of Truely 3D audio, but I've done a BIT of research (and always open to learn more).

The last game to be able to use OpenAL (besides Source engine games) that I know of was Borderlands 2. You had to edit an .INI file, but then it was there. Wonder if the same trick worked for Borderlands: The PreSequel?



yethal said:


> Games did that back in OpenAL times. Now sound engine renders the output already divided up into discrete channels.



Yeah, now if only a driver could get the audio before the sound engine did that, or had a sound engine that worked more closely with SBX/TrueAudio/Sphere etc. I still feel that the incoming VR games are our best hope.



yethal said:


> Technology You're referring to is called Dolby Atmos and currently only Overwatch supports it for headphones (Battlefront is Home Cinema only).



Star Wars Battlefield. I forget, but it either has Dolby ATMOS or DTS:X headphone.

Like, almost all games support one form of 5.1/7.1 home theater surround or another, which is why I backed the Smyth Realiser A16 project on Kickstarter, but hopefully more games (and movies, why not) get binaural support and true 3D positioning for headphones.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Battlefront only has Atmos to the receiver and not the same plugin like Overwatch, though with the Realiser A16 you could make very good use of it.


----------



## BlueNinja0

studiosound said:


> SBX is acting as a spatializer when set like this. It's a really good spatializer, but a spatializer nonetheless.
> A game can't send 5.1/7.1 audio to a stereo device. The Windows device settings override anything that a game can do.
> Your video doesn't sound like proper 7.1 SBX Surround at all.


 
  
 I'm sorry, but if SBX Surround is generating a completely different sound on that fire crackling from the front vs the back, it is somehow getting the 7.1 information. When SBX is off there is no distinction. I don't know what you mean by "proper", but if you're on Windows 10, can you record for me a scene similar to that in BF4 with proper SBX Surround so that we can compare it?
  
 To make it even more certain that SBX Surround is getting 7.1 information even as a 2.0 device I tested it with a 7.1 speaker test sound file on Foobar2000 and there is a clear distinction between the front speaker testing and the back speakers. When SBX is off, the front and back sound exactly the same.
 If you don't believe me try it for yourself. This might be some new Windows 10 sound API changes.
 EDIT: You can test it on Foobar2000 or any other surround capable player with this file: http://samplemedia.linaro.org/Audio/multi-channel/Nums_7dot1_24_48000.wav


----------



## StudioSound

yethal said:


> Technology You're referring to is called Dolby Atmos and currently only Overwatch supports it for headphones (Battlefront is Home Cinema only).


 
 Ah, I was not aware that Battlefront was only available for Home Theater setups. I don't have either game.
  


evshrug said:


> Yes, thanks for pointing it out but I already know this. I suppose I was just saying that I hoped X-Fi MB3 was grabbing the audio before Windows/Microsoft got its grubby hands on it, like ASIO and WASAPI do, but I guess there still (mostly) hasn't been a solution since Vista changed the audio stack.


 
  
 I believe OpenAL can do this, but it's not something that many games support.
 5.1 or 7.1 mixed for headphones can still sound really good though.
  


blueninja0 said:


> I'm sorry, but if SBX Surround is generating a completely different sound on that fire crackling from the front vs the back, *it is somehow getting the 7.1 information.*


 
 The game can't send 7.1 information to a stereo device. It's as simple as that.
 Just because it sounds different (because it's being processed by SBX Surround) does not mean that it's receiving 7.1 information from the game.
  
 There are two things to try:
 1. Enable SBX Surround in MB3, and watch your "SBX Off" video.
 2. Set things up so that it's using your Realtek hardware as the playback device, with the X-Fi MB3 device set to 7.1. Either connect your headphones to the Realtek output or use the "Listen to this device" option on Realtek's "Stereo Mix" recording device to forward that audio to your ODAC. This will let you hear what real 7.1 SBX Surround sounds like.


----------



## BlueNinja0

studiosound said:


> The game can't send 7.1 information to a stereo device. It's as simple as that.
> Just because it sounds different (because it's being processed by SBX Surround) does not mean that it's receiving 7.1 information from the game.
> 
> There are two things to try:
> ...


 
  
 You're right, it sounds different. But I still stand that there is a back/front difference on the sound I recorded and on the tests I made, but I found out why. Apparently, when you're outputting rear speaker channels to a Windows configured for 2.0, the Windows's DSP applies a subtle filter to the rear speakers that make them sound different from the front channels. That's the explanation as to why there was a difference even when outputting to the ODAC.
 You can test this easily on Foobar2000 with a multi-channel audio sample like this and using the "move stereo to rear speakers" DSP (ofc disable any virtualization). Theoretically it should sound the exact same on a 2.0 device, but Windows makes it sounds different.
  
 Now to make it work properly... I guess I'll try to route the audio through a 7.1 virtual audio cable. Anyone tried that here?
  
  
 EDIT: aaaand apparently the virtual audio cable is not detected by MB3 for some reason.... sigh... I'm running out of options.


----------



## SearchOfSub

blueninja0 said:


> There is a clear distinction from sounds coming from the front vs the back. The MB3 application is clearly getting the 7.1 channels somehow. I'll record a video to show you guys later. I also thought it would not work.





X-fi MB3 does capture 7.1. It's just not AS effective when you have both speaker out AND mb3 enabled in sound properties.

I must say, I forgot that I bought this long time ago and I decided to look through my old email again and I still had th email for product key. Installed, set sorround to maximum on mb3 software, set my realtek software to 7.1 and I must say this virtual sorround is very effective for directional audio and positioning. This is what gaming is all about!


----------



## SearchOfSub

Oops, I meant it is more effective when you have BOTH xfi speakers and normal realtek speakers enabled in sound properties opposed to just having xfi enabled and all others disabled.


----------



## BlueNinja0

searchofsub said:


> Oops, I meant it is more effective when you have BOTH xfi speakers and normal realtek speakers enabled in sound properties opposed to just having xfi enabled and all others disabled.




I dont get it. Are you supposed to disable sound devices? I never did that.


----------



## SearchOfSub

blueninja0 said:


> I dont get it. Are you supposed to disable sound devices? I never did that.





I went back to re-read the initial post and it seems I have misinterpreted your initial post. I meant I was getting 7.1 sound through my internal motherboard sound card (through headphone jack on my PC) using MB3 software. If I disble my realtek drivers and use speaker out MB3 as default sound device, It would still give me 7.1 sound but not as directional if I were to just leave both driver enabled (default windows setting) vs. disabling one or the other. I would still get sound though. I have not tried outputting through a seperate external dac/amp.


----------



## StudioSound

searchofsub said:


> I went back to re-read the initial post and it seems I have misinterpreted your initial post. I meant I was getting 7.1 sound through my internal motherboard sound card (through headphone jack on my PC) using MB3 software. If I disble my realtek drivers and use speaker out MB3 as default sound device, It would still give me 7.1 sound but not as directional if I were to just leave both driver enabled (default windows setting) vs. disabling one or the other. I would still get sound though. I have not tried outputting through a seperate external dac/amp.


 
 Did you check that the MB3 X-Fi device was still able to be configured as 7.1 in both instances? That's probably what caused things to sound different.


----------



## Hunched

What do people think of the new Sennheiser GSX 1000 and GSX 1200? They're new amps/dacs/soundcards (I don't know this stuff well) with Sennheiser's own in-house developed surround engine.
 I have an Astro MixAmp from my console days which I have used with stereo since my motherboard doesn't support Dolby surround and I don't have a soundcard that does either.
 But with the GSX 1000 and GSX 1200 I can set it up as a surround sound soundcard and get 7.1 without needing a motherboard or soundcard that has to deliver 5.1/7.1 to it.
  
 I don't know what else does this, there's so many DAC's, amp's, soundcards, or combinations of them in one unit, some that natively support 7.1 or need something else to deliver 5.1/7.1 to it first.
 I haven't been able to even begin to figure out what my options are.
  
 At this point it's looking like I'm just going to get one of these Sennheiser things because I already have headphones from them and have faith in them as a company lol.
 The GSX 1000 and 1200 appear to do everything I need, I just don't have a clue if Sennheiser's surround is going to be as good as Creative's or Dolby Headphone.
 The only other thing that has caught my eye is the SoundBlaster G5
  
 I don't really want an internal soundcard if I don't need it, which I don't with this and who knows what else. Too many options.
 These Sennheiser amps/dacs/soundcards/whatever also control mic input too which is convenient, my Astro MixAmp does this as well.
  
 If anyone has any input or can make the options a little clearer I'd appreciate it. I'd like to get the best thing for my money.
 Thanks!
  
 Edit: Apparently the new MixAmp TR works the same, and acts as a 5.1 soundcard via USB on PC unlike the old ones which require a soundcard or motherboard that can output Dolby 5.1 over toslink. So I suppose that's a Dolby Headphone option that also functions as a soundcard, amp, and dac all in one.


----------



## Hunched

I guess I'm the only one interested in Sennheiser developing a new binaural audio technology 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I hope it's even better than Creative's SBX. Sennheiser is usually near the best in everything they do, but developing a virtual surround technology is pretty different for them.
 I'm cautiously optimistic and eagerly awaiting someone to get their hands on it and record some comparisons.
  
 I'll be getting it on release, I'll be surprised if it isn't one of the best. Sennheiser definitely has the R&D department to make something great.
 Worst comes to worst I'll return it or sell it and get a Creative Sound Blaster G5 as it looks to be the current best choice.


----------



## BlueNinja0

hunched said:


> I guess I'm the only one interested in Sennheiser developing a new binaural audio technology
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It is interesting ofc. But at the moment, knowing that virtual surround is entirely possible in software without any noticeable latency, I'll shun all proprietary developments that locks us to their products. Luckily the latest developments in Virtual Reality audio might save us from this mess.


----------



## Hunched

blueninja0 said:


> It is interesting ofc. But at the moment, knowing that virtual surround is entirely possible in software without any noticeable latency, I'll shun all proprietary developments that locks us to their products. Luckily the latest developments in Virtual Reality audio might save us from this mess.


 
 Are we sure the latency isn't worse? I haven't looked too much into this stuff.
 I know of Creative X-Fi MB3, Razer Surround, and the Out of Your Head thing. Razer Surround is bad.
  
 I'm okay with physical products. The Sennheiser GSX 1000 & GSX 1200 are dac/amps that also function as external soundcards that are guaranteed to work. It does everything in one unit.
 With the software route, you have to deal with their garbage software and should have a DAC and probably an amp anyway or it won't sound as good.
  
 I can't say I'm too happy with how the whole gaming audio situation either. How every technology is just some software/drivers that could run on basically everything but is locked and licensed.
 There's a pretty famous Techpowerup thread about unlocking Realtek drivers for Dolby support, but I can't be bothered.
  
 I'm not too optimistic about VR audio developments fixing all or most future games. These solutions are far more universal and will probably remain so for a long time.


----------



## BlueNinja0

hunched said:


> Are we sure the latency isn't worse?


 
  
 I haven't measured them scientifically but Razer Surround had horrible latency when I tested it (it was months ago though) whereas Creative X-Fi MB3 added no lag that I could detect.
  
 Sure, if you also need a DAC and amp it might suit you, but for example, I alread had an O2+ODAC external amp + DAC and I wanted to benefit from virtual surround, which I couldn't because it was locked to vendor hardware, even though the signal is probably processed in software anyway, in the drivers. It's a bit sad.
  
 If you end up getting the Sennheiser make sure to share your finds here!


----------



## Yethal

blueninja0 said:


> It is interesting ofc. But at the moment, knowing that virtual surround is entirely possible in software without any noticeable latency, I'll shun all proprietary developments that locks us to their products. Luckily the latest developments in Virtual Reality audio might save us from this mess.



Razer surround has latency and sounds really bad. OOYH costs 150 usd for single PC license so it's the very definition of a proprietary product.


----------



## Hunched

Am I correct in saying the Creative Sound Blaster G5 requires software to use 7.1? I'm having trouble finding a definite answer.
 It looks like the "*BlasterX Acoustic Engine Pro Software*" is mandatory.
 So it does process the 5.1/7.1 on your PC anyway before sending it off to the Sound Blaster G5?
 Looks like I'm definitely not getting that then.
 It's literally just a DAC/AMP + a license for their surround sound software, without the virtualization software on your PC it can't do surround?
 The Sennheiser amps win here:
 "There’s no need to tab out of the game into onscreen software as the GSX 1000 and GSX 1200 PRO handle all sound processing on their internal chipsets rather on the computer’s CPU."
  
 Also is SBX currently the only surround tech that allows control of reverb? I've only ever seen SBX listed with percentages, such as 33%, 66%, 100% etc in audio comparisons.
  
 According to the product page, Sennheiser's GSX 1000 and GSX 1200 also allow this.
 "it is possible to set Reverberation levels to change how the user feels in physical spaces of the game, and even increase the surround speakers for back and front speaker focus."
 Which means it's the only other binaural method that has this level of customization, if I'm correct in anything I'm saying.
  
 I truly wish there were more information, or an audio sample we could listen to so we could experience what Sennheiser is offering.
 I mean Creative has YouTube videos showcasing their SBX surround for anyone to listen, that's the smart thing to do, marketing...
  
 Anyways, the GSX 1000/GSX 1200 are 100% driver and software free with customization I believe only SBX has had up to this point.
 Are there any Creative products capable of providing 7.1 without mandatory drivers or software installed on the PC?


----------



## BlueNinja0

yethal said:


> Razer surround has latency and sounds really bad. OOYH costs 150 usd for single PC license so it's the very definition of a proprietary product.


 
  
 I meant proprietary hardware. My bad. Hardware that is usually completely unrelated to the virtual surround effect.
  


> Originally Posted by *Hunched* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> So it does process the 5.1/7.1 on your PC anyway before sending it off to the Sound Blaster G5?
> Looks like I'm definitely not getting that then.
> ...


 
  
 Unfortunately yeah, most products do the virtualization on the CPU but you need to buy their hardware and have it inside your PC to be able to use the license to use it. That's why there are hacks online to make Dolby Surround work on unauthorized Realtek sound chips.
 EDIT: Creative X-Fi MB3 seems to be the first solution I tried that works without any specific sound card and without latency, but it still costs $30. The problem is that it only supports outputting virtual surround (a 2.0 signal) to a 7.1 or 5.1 surround card... which means the ODAC (2.0 device) is out of the question. It's a stupid limitation without explanation.
  
 Does the Sennheiser product not really need a driver? If so that is really awesome. It also means more compatibility among various systems.
  
 As for the reverb options, these are the only things I have available on X-Fi MB3:


----------



## Corundum

blueninja0 said:


> EDIT: Creative X-Fi MB3 seems to be the first solution I tried that works without any specific sound card and without latency, but it still costs $30. The problem is that it only supports outputting virtual surround (a 2.0 signal) to a 7.1 or 5.1 surround card... which means the ODAC (2.0 device) is out of the question. It's a stupid limitation without explanation.


 
  
 The requirement of setting your device to 5.1/7.1 is because if your source doesn't see surround channels in the playback device, it won't send any surround data.  MB3 is intercepting that 5.1/7.1 signal and processing it into a 2.0 signal before it actually reaches the hardware playback device, but your source doesn't know that.  I really wish MB3 provided something like a virtual 7.1 sound card and virtual audio cable that lets you send the post-processed 2.0 signal to any playback device you wanted.  There may be a free solution using VB-cable, but I can't test it as I am using the MB2 suite that came with my mobo which only works if I output to the onboard sound.
  
 I'm curious to know, when you use MB3, are you plugging your headphones directly into your sound card, or are you piping it from your sound card to your ODAC with stereo mix or an equivalent solution?  If it's the latter, are you experiencing any latency between the sound card output and the ODAC output?


----------



## BlueNinja0

corundum said:


> The requirement of setting your device to 5.1/7.1 is because if your source doesn't see surround channels in the playback device, it won't send any surround data.  MB3 is intercepting that 5.1/7.1 signal and processing it into a 2.0 signal before it actually reaches the hardware playback device, but your source doesn't know that.  I really wish MB3 provided something like a virtual 7.1 sound card and virtual audio cable that lets you send the post-processed 2.0 signal to any playback device you wanted.  There may be a free solution using VB-cable, but I can't test it as I am using the MB2 suite that came with my mobo which only works if I output to the onboard sound.
> 
> I'm curious to know, when you use MB3, are you plugging your headphones directly into your sound card, or are you piping it from your sound card to your ODAC with stereo mix or an equivalent solution?  If it's the latter, are you experiencing any latency between the sound card output and the ODAC output?


 
  
 The requirement doesn't make sense because the MB3 is already in itself a virtual sound card/virtual audio cable. It ads a new device to the Windows playback devices and it is this virtual device (which obviously should always show up as 7.1) that receives the game sound and then outputs it through the other sound device you choose in the MB3 application. That's why I don't see a reason for this limitation. I don't know why the MB3 virtual device transforms into a 2.0 device just because I choose the ODAC.
  
 Right now I'm plugging my headphones directly into the motherboard yes, but I tried previously (not with MB3) with a "stereo mix" equivalent forwarding to the ODAC and it added a considerable amount of latency. I did a test and we actually measured it. Check out this post:
 http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield-4-technical-discussion/5855-improving-bf4-s-positional-audio-with-profsave-profile/index15.html#post310479
  
 The increased latency was audible and annoying enough that I didn't want to use it, but it might be ok to you. Also, I think Windows 10 made many improvements in the audio latency department so it might not be so bad now. That previous test was on Windows 8.
  
 My audio files are a few posts back in that thread.


----------



## Corundum

blueninja0 said:


> Right now I'm plugging my headphones directly into the motherboard yes, but I tried previously (not with MB3) with a "stereo mix" equivalent forwarding to the ODAC and it added a considerable amount of latency. I did a test and we actually measured it. Check out this post:
> http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield-4-technical-discussion/5855-improving-bf4-s-positional-audio-with-profsave-profile/index15.html#post310479
> 
> The increased latency was audible and annoying enough that I didn't want to use it, but it might be ok to you. Also, I think Windows 10 made many improvements in the audio latency department so it might not be so bad now. That previous test was on Windows 8.


 
  
 I do experience about 100 ms latency with stereo mix, but I don't usually play games that require twitch reactions to positional cues, so it doesn't matter.  However, if you're willing to try something: VB-Audio Virtual Cable (http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/) is free and is configurable to various latency thresholds, which may allow you a lower latency all-digital pathway to your ODAC for virtual surround.
  
 Your pipeline would probably be MB3 -> VB-Cable -> ODAC.  As long as you configure your VB-Cable playback device to be 7.1 MB3 shouldn't complain.


----------



## BlueNinja0

corundum said:


> I do experience about 100 ms latency with stereo mix, but I don't usually play games that require twitch reactions to positional cues, so it doesn't matter.  However, if you're willing to try something: VB-Audio Virtual Cable (http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/) is free and is configurable to various latency thresholds, which may allow you a lower latency all-digital pathway to your ODAC for virtual surround.
> 
> Your pipeline would probably be MB3 -> VB-Cable -> ODAC.  As long as you configure your VB-Cable playback device to be 7.1 MB3 shouldn't complain.


 

 Unfortunately I have already tried it and it doesn't work. For whatever reason MB3 doesn't detect the VB-Cable and doesn't list it in the possible output devices. 
 It was my last hope for a clear digital path...
  
 EDIT: Another reason I shied away from using the "stereo mix" path (WhatUHear in the case of Creative sound cards) was that I've read here in this thread that it degrades the sound quality, even though I didn't notice it.


----------



## Hunched

All this latency talk almost makes me not want to try an external soundcard. 
 Sounds like internal ones are superior with latency, unsurprisingly. 
  
 Things can never be simple and perfect can they? 
 15+ types of surround sound, 1000+ different products using them. 
 If only developers implemented headphone surround into the games themselves 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Which some are doing, like Dolby Atmos in Overwatch. Also apparently a lot of VR games will have native support.
  
 We're all trying to solve a problem that wouldn't exist if everyone else cared about audio as much as we do.


----------



## BlueNinja0

hunched said:


> All this latency talk almost makes me not want to try an external soundcard.
> Sounds like internal ones are superior with latency, unsurprisingly.
> 
> Things can never be simple and perfect can they?
> ...


 

 I know what you mean. It's frustrating.
 The problem with developers implementing headphone surround in the games is that it would still not be a perfect solution, because some games would have it, some wouldn't, some would have a bad implementation, etc.
 I think the upcoming of VR is going to save us though, since surround virtualization is essential there.
  
 By the way, where did you get the info that external soundcards are worse with latency? Are there numbers around? I made a few measurements myself on BF4 and it didn't seem bad at all. It's a few posts back.


----------



## Hunched

blueninja0 said:


> I know what you mean. It's frustrating.
> The problem with developers implementing headphone surround in the games is that it would still not be a perfect solution, because some games would have it, some wouldn't, some would have a bad implementation, etc.
> I think the upcoming of VR is going to save us though, since surround virtualization is essential there.
> 
> By the way, where did you get the info that external soundcards are worse with latency? Are there numbers around? I made a few measurements myself on BF4 and it didn't seem bad at all. It's a few posts back.


 
 I haven't looked too much into the latency thing, there was post a few pages back to an article and I googled it and read some forums and articles for like 10 minutes.
 Also you guys are talking about it.
 It makes sense that anything plugged directly into your motherboard with PCI-E would be faster than over USB.
 USB latency can be an issue with all sorts of peripherals, some peoples PC's have it worse than others for numerous possible reasons with their setup.
 PCI-E is just a superior connection.
  
 As long as I can lets say fire a gun in a game and not notice any weird disconnect from my click to the sound registering in my headphones, I'm fine even if it's measurably slower.
 Most products should be fine in reality, any decent audio company making external soundcards would test latency and do whatever they can with processing or whatever to make it indistinguishable, or so I hope and expect.
 Especially if a company is making gaming marketed audio products, if you don't test latency on gaming focused products you're a terrible company and doing your job wrong.
  
 The GSX 1000/1200 will probably be fine, and I'm worried for no reason.
 I'm used to expecting the worst of possible scenarios, I should be more optimistic but then it's such a let down when things do fail to deliver.


----------



## BlueNinja0

> Originally Posted by *Hunched* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> It makes sense that anything plugged directly into your motherboard with PCI-E would be faster than over USB.
> USB latency can be an issue with all sorts of peripherals, some peoples PC's have it worse than others for numerous possible reasons with their setup.
> PCI-E is just a superior connection.


 
  
 That's true. But don't forget that driver latency has a bigger impact than the connection type. It probably doesn't happen, but it's possible that a Creative or Realtek driver might have more latency than a driver-less universal DAC.


----------



## Typo

> Originally Posted by *Hunched* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> some peoples PC's have it worse than others for numerous possible reasons with their setup.


 

 Mostly a weak CPU issue at that point. Unless you are still using USB 2.0 slots because they are significantly slower than the new 3.0 and 3.1 slots.
  

USB 2.0 = 60 MB/s
USB 3.0 = 625 MB/s
USB 3.1 = 1.21 GB/s
eSATA = 750 MB/s


----------



## BlueNinja0

typo said:


> Mostly a weak CPU issue at that point. Unless you are still using USB 2.0 slots because they are significantly slower than the new 3.0 and 3.1 slots.
> 
> 
> USB 2.0 = 60 MB/s
> ...


 
  
 The bandwidth of the USB connection might not be at all related with the latency. The USB DACs are USB 2.0 devices and the information is sent to the DAC in a constant data stream. The actual bandwidth has no impact here. Though I might be wrong.
 Anyone wanna test a 2.0 VS 3.0 USB latency to their DACs?


----------



## Typo

blueninja0 said:


> The bandwidth of the USB connection might not be at all related with the latency. The USB DACs are USB 2.0 devices and the information is sent to the DAC in a constant data stream. The actual bandwidth has no impact here. Though I might be wrong.
> Anyone wanna test a 2.0 VS 3.0 USB latency to their DACs?


 

 I've never actually tested this myself but would be interested to see an answer.

 I don't have exact numbers, but while playing Guitar Hero my audio lag compensation is almost at 200ms with optical > DAC > AMP > Headphones. I'm almost interested in buying a USB DAC to see if it would remove the audio lag. GH would be a perfect test for this as well.


----------



## BlueNinja0

typo said:


> GH would be a perfect test for this as well.


 
  
 That would be a "by ear" test. Why not this more scientific method?
 http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield-4-technical-discussion/5855-improving-bf4-s-positional-audio-with-profsave-profile/index14.html#post310408
  
 By placing a microphone in a position where it catches both the sound of your mouse click and the sound of your headphones through your DAC you can measure, with nanosecond accuracy, the latency from click to game sound by using an audio software that can plot the sound wave in a chart. With this we can compare the latency of any audio card, USB or not.
  
 Anyone wanna give it a shot?


----------



## Hunched

Just thought I'd update that the new Sennheiser 7.1 amps have appeared on Mwave with an ETA of a Sept 21st release date.
 Please give us something at least as good as SBX, because everything but SBX is pretty much garbage, we need some competition.
  
 I'm still waiting on a YouTube video or something to showcase what their new tech sounds like.


----------



## rudyae86

hunched said:


> Just thought I'd update that the new Sennheiser 7.1 amps have appeared on Mwave with an ETA of a Sept 21st release date.
> Please give us something at least as good as SBX, because everything but SBX is pretty much garbage, we need some competition.
> 
> I'm still waiting on a YouTube video or something to showcase what their new tech sounds like.


 
 I might actually purchase one if Amazon has it for sale when it comes out....or I might wait until BF since by then I will have some spare change.
  
 As a PC gamer, I'm actually excited about the new Sennheiser's new products...


----------



## Hunched

So Sennheiser has put up a video, but it's basically just an advert.
 Nothing that useful, if that was supposed to showcase the 7.1 and sell me on it the video failed.

  
 If this is all they're releasing for the GSX amps I'm disappointed, hopefully someone will upload a proper showcase or comparison of Sennheiser's 7.1 compared to SBX or whatever else sometime soon.
  
 Hopefully their marketing team is just bad and the product will still be good.
 The intense advertising music is louder than the stereo to 7.1 comparison they're attempting to make you hear...
  
 Can something not suck for once? I'm tired of being disappointed in nearly everything I own somehow.


----------



## BlueNinja0

Nice promotional video, but unfortunately there is no surround demonstration indeed. Maybe they'll upload a separate video for it later.


----------



## Diji1

Hi guys I just wanted to get a thumbs up on this arrangement for PC gaming with 3D audio to avoid any silly mistakes:
  
 Headphone: Philips Fidelio X2 (with new shielded cord as per review on MLE gaming headphone thread)
  
 Soundcard: Creative X-Fi Titanium HD
  
 Amp: onboard Creative X-Fi Titanium HD
  
 Can anyone see any problems here?


----------



## Hunched

blueninja0 said:


> Nice promotional video, but unfortunately there is no surround demonstration indeed. Maybe they'll upload a separate video for it later.


 
 They clearly tried to demonstrate the difference between stereo sound and their surround sound, just failed miserably with the video.
  
 It straight up says "Stereo Audio" and then "7.1 Sennheiser Binaural Rendering Engine"
 There's definitely a sound difference, the little shooting pixel enemy things or whatever sound further away with the "7.1"
  
 I don't think they actually bothered to record their 7.1 properly though, it's like they just poorly edited some 2 channel stereo to try and make it sound more spacious or something. 
  
 No idea what they were thinking, the video is bad. Blasting intense advertising music during the sound comparison is also stupid.
  
 So I doubt we'll get anything more, seeing as the Sennheiser marketing team thinks they've put a comparison out there.
 This video just makes them look bad, and it won't make sense if they put out another proper comparison that sounds completely different from this one because it was done properly.
 I don't know
  
 This is the only place they've put this video as well... Their official Polish channel, with a whole 227 subscribers.
 They have bigger official channels. Makes no sense.


----------



## rudyae86

During the video, when they mention front and back speakers.....it did notice that the rear speakers stand out more than what SBX or DH reveal in terms of rear speakers. But yeah, the video was not done very properly. It does scream gamer and added that music to give it that "wow" factor for the gamers out there.
  
 Lets hope it delivers more than what the video has showed us....
  
 at least it doesn't sound like the Turtle Beach TAC.....like a tin can and all lol


----------



## BlueNinja0

diji1 said:


> Headphone: Philips Fidelio X2 (with new shielded cord as per review on MLE gaming headphone thread)


 
  
 What do you mean by "new shielded cord"?
  
 Anyway, I have the X2 and I can say I love everything about them, well... maybe with the exception of the leaking ink thing, but that's solved for me.
  
  
  


hunched said:


> I don't think they actually bothered to record their 7.1 properly though, it's like they just poorly edited some 2 channel stereo to try and make it sound more spacious or something.


 
  
 I don't think they were trying to make an audio comparison on that video at all. The demonstration with the little top view over a map's point was to kinda explain to the audience what benefits there is to having surround sound in games. I highly doubt the audio was captured on their new DACs at all. The video was probably outsourced to some publicity agency. I wouldn't take that sound into consideration.


----------



## Diji1

blueninja0 said:


> What do you mean by "new shielded cord"?


 
  
 Just a cord that doesn't pick up any electrical noise is what i meant by shielded_.  _The review on MLE's gaming headphone reviews thread suggests the supplied cord is a little detrimental to the sound is all.


----------



## rudyae86

diji1 said:


> Just a cord that doesn't pick up any electrical noise is what i meant by shielded_.  _The review on MLE's gaming headphone reviews thread suggests the supplied cord is a little detrimental to the sound is all.


 
 No, I think you have a bit wrong. The X1's cable had a high impedance which in some way, kind of held back the X1 from delivering its complete sound signature (just saying it in easy words), so he suggested to use a different cable that didnt result from high impedance. The X2 cable is actually better than the stock X1 cable....
  
 You might have read the wrong review for the wrong headphone....
  
 or I could have read wrong lol


----------



## Diji1

Actually you are 100% correct I confused reviews between X1 and X2 - thanks guys.
  
 So I have X-Fi Titanium HD and Fidelio X2 now but I've only used them for The Rise Of The Tombraider - surround seems to be working brilliantly as in positioning of enemies is very easy to pinpoint using audio (although I might try closing my eyes next time I play and try positioning them correctly without visual clues if possible).
  
 Windows Speakers control panel allows me to choose 5.1 speakers and the test appears to be positioning the speakers correctly.  Am I correct in assuming that the reason I do not have 7.1 here is that I'm using CMSS-3D and not Dolby Headphone (but the 7.1 is virtual only for DH in any case if i had DH hardware)?
  
 However I haven't been able to test my setup to my satisfaction: Rightmark 3DSound only shows "DirectSound 3D" as an option in the system menu (everything else is greyed out) and the test where you can move the sound around the head seems to be only stereo to me and doesn't give convincing surround effect at all for front and rear positioning.  Only the right most slider works which I'm assuming is meant to be moving sound up and down in height and that appears to be stereo/not working.
  
 Is Rightmark 3DSound just too old to test this stuff correctly and could you recommend another similar application?  Possibly I have something wrong in my setup but like I said surround in games appears to be working very well so far so I'm not sure.
  
 Finally: I would like to have a subwoofer and headphone surround effects: one way to do this with *stereo* audio is
 splitting the audio from the 3.5mm jack and running it to another amp then headphones so headphones and sub have seperate volume levels.
  
 X-Fi Titanium HD -> splitter -> amp -> headphones
                                |
                                V
                     powered subwoofer
  
 Will this destroy the surround effect? Or is there another way of achieving this?
  
 Also found this which some may find useful: http://satsun.org/audio/  up to date (but going back to the 80's ) list of PC games and surround sound API used.


----------



## PurpleAngel

diji1 said:


> Actually you are 100% correct I confused reviews between X1 and X2 - thanks guys.
> So I have X-Fi Titanium HD and Fidelio X2 now but I've only used them for The Rise Of The Tombraider - surround seems to be working brilliantly as in positioning of enemies is very easy to pinpoint using audio (although I might try closing my eyes next time I play and try positioning them correctly without visual clues if possible).
> Windows Speakers control panel allows me to choose 5.1 speakers and the test appears to be positioning the speakers correctly.  Am I correct in assuming that the reason I do not have 7.1 here is that I'm using CMSS-3D and not Dolby Headphone (but the 7.1 is virtual only for DH in any case if i had DH hardware)?
> However I haven't been able to test my setup to my satisfaction: Rightmark 3DSound only shows "DirectSound 3D" as an option in the system menu (everything else is greyed out) and the test where you can move the sound around the head seems to be only stereo to me and doesn't give convincing surround effect at all for front and rear positioning.  Only the right most slider works which I'm assuming is meant to be moving sound up and down in height and that appears to be stereo/not working.
> ...


 
  
 Hopefully you disabled the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the Ti-HD (Titanium-HD) sound card.
 There is a small chance that active on-board audio might effect an add-on internal sound card (small chance).
  
 You could run an analog audio signal, from the Ti-HD's line-output (RCA) jacks, into a sub-woofer's line-input.
 Then connect an external headphone amplifier, to the sub-woofer's line-output.
 But I'm guessing you only going to get a crude audio thump, from the sub-woofer.
  
 For improving over all audio quality, you might consider connecting an external headphone amplifier directly up to the Ti-HD's RCA line-output jacks.
 The Ti-HD's headphone jack is decent, but has a 35-Ohm output impedance.
 And with the 30-Ohm Philips Fidelio X2 headphones, a headphone amplifier with an output impedance of around 4-Ohms or less, would be recommended, for best audio detail.
 There are lots of external headphone amplifiers that have an output impedance of less then 4-Ohms.
  
 The Ti-HD's headphone uses two of the Ti-HD's dual channel op-amps, While the Ti-HD's line-output takes advantage of the Ti-HD's two dual channel op-amps and two single channel op-amps (cleaner audio).
 And the Ti-HD can send it's CMSS-3D headphone audio out the RCA line-output jacks


----------



## Diji1

purpleangel said:


> Hopefully you disabled the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the Ti-HD (Titanium-HD) sound card.
> There is a small chance that active on-board audio might effect an add-on internal sound card (small chance).
> 
> You could run an analog audio signal, from the Ti-HD's line-output (RCA) jacks, into a sub-woofer's line-input.
> ...


 
  
 I thought the whole point of a line out is that it avoided the devices amps entirely so I'm confused.


----------



## PurpleAngel

diji1 said:


> I thought the whole point of a line out is that it avoided the devices amps entirely so I'm confused.


 
  
 Ti-HD headphone jack uses the two I/V dual channel (JCR2114) op-amps.
 And the Ti-HD's line-output uses these two I/V slotted op-amps, plus the two single channel LME49710 op-amps.
  
 I believe it's fairly common to have op-amps located somewhere after the audio signal goes thru the DAC.
 (but I'm not the expert).


----------



## yoboseyo

I'm looking to run a setup of using Stereo Mix to output my sound card to ODAC (USB). I have a few questions just for confirmation I'm doing the right thing.
  
 The OP only mentions this method using  "What u hear" (Creative) - I'm guessing Stereo Mix (Xonar) is exactly the same?
  
 How's the performance? Is it bit-perfect? Is there any noticeable delay?
  
 I heard there's some stereo mix issues with USB headsets. Would ODAC have the same issue?
  
 Cheers!


----------



## PurpleAngel

yoboseyo said:


> I'm looking to run a setup of using Stereo Mix to output my sound card to ODAC (USB). I have a few questions just for confirmation I'm doing the right thing.
> The OP only mentions this method using  "What u hear" (Creative) - I'm guessing Stereo Mix (Xonar) is exactly the same?
> How's the performance? Is it bit-perfect? Is there any noticeable delay?
> I heard there's some stereo mix issues with USB headsets. Would ODAC have the same issue?


 
 The option your looking into degrades audio quality.
 Better to use a quality sound card and output to the headphones or speakers
 or bypass the sound card and have audio go straight out the USB port to an external DAC (ODAC?).
 What hardware do you currently own?
 What are you trying to do with audio (gaming, music or movies or other)?


----------



## yoboseyo

purpleangel said:


> The option your looking into degrades audio quality.
> Better to use a quality sound card and output to the headphones or speakers
> or bypass the sound card and have audio go straight out the USB port to an external DAC (ODAC?).
> What hardware do you currently own?
> What are you trying to do with audio (gaming, music or movies or other)?


 
 Are you sure it degrades audio quality? What if I used Virtual Audio Cable/VB-Cables Hifi?
  
 I have a Xonar D2.  I need dolby headphone for gaming, and that's about it
  
 My other options are to pick up a sound card with line out to  ODAC, or just get a Essence One
  
 I'm concerned about audio quality of internal sound cards due to EMI
  
 Edit: another option is Razer surround but I heard it's crap
  
 Anything else I should be looking at?


----------



## PurpleAngel

yoboseyo said:


> Are you sure it degrades audio quality? What if I used Virtual Audio Cable/VB-Cables Hifi?
> I have a Xonar D2.  I need dolby headphone for gaming, and that's about it
> My other options are to pick up a sound card with line out to  ODAC, or just get a Essence One
> I'm concerned about audio quality of internal sound cards due to EMI
> ...


 
 I'm  not the expert on the "What U Hear" feature, but it seems to be common knowledge that it degrades audio quality (from what I read).
  
 Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the Xonar D2?
 Have you tried the Unified Xonar Drivers?
 http://maxedtech.com/asus-xonar-unified-drivers/
  
 The Xonar D2 makes a fairly decent DAC.
 Me, I would just connect an external headphone amplifer to the Xonar D2 and be happy.
 Do you currently have an issues with electrical noise generated inside the computer case, that the Xonar D2 picks up?
 You could get an external DAC with an optical input, connect it to the Xonar D2's optical output port.
 There is the Schiit Modi 2 Uber DAC ($149), which comes with optical/coaxial/USB input.
 http://schiit.com/products/modi-2
 Hifimediy has an optical DAC for $59
 http://hifimediy.com/SPDIF-9018-DAC
 The Xonar D2 can send it's Dolby Headphone surround sound thru it's S/PDIF (optical/coaxial) output port.


----------



## BlueNinja0

yoboseyo said:


> I'm looking to run a setup of using Stereo Mix to output my sound card to ODAC (USB). I have a few questions just for confirmation I'm doing the right thing.
> 
> The OP only mentions this method using  "What u hear" (Creative) - I'm guessing Stereo Mix (Xonar) is exactly the same?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I also have the ODAC + O2 which I use directly from the PC (no sound card) but I have the same problem as you. I want to output virtual surround sound to the ODAC but the options are limited. One of my only options is to use Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 with my onboard sound card (it doesn't work for virtual surround with just a 2.0 device for some dumb reason), the problem is my sound card doesn't seem to have a line-out so that I can plug it into my ODAC + O2 and I don't know if it's appropriate to connect the speaker-out from the sound card into the line-out.
 I tried to use the Virtual Audio Cable/VB-Cables Hifi but Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 doesn't list them as available sound devices... what the **** Creative...
  
 And yes "What u hear" seems to add sound latency in my case. I've also read in this forum it degrades sound quality, even though I didn't notice it. Razer Surround also adds a lot of latency (at least it used to, when I tried it a few months ago) and the sound is not very good.


----------



## thuNDa

blueninja0 said:


> I also have the ODAC + O2 which I use directly from the PC (no sound card) but I have the same problem as you. I want to output virtual surround sound to the ODAC but the options are limited. One of my only options is to use Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 with my onboard sound card (it doesn't work for virtual surround with just a 2.0 device for some dumb reason), the problem is my sound card doesn't seem to have a line-out so that I can plug it into my ODAC + O2 and I don't know if it's appropriate to connect the speaker-out from the sound card into the line-out.
> I tried to use the Virtual Audio Cable/VB-Cables Hifi but Sound Blaster X-Fi MB3 doesn't list them as available sound devices... what the **** Creative...
> 
> And yes "What u hear" seems to add sound latency in my case. I've also read in this forum it degrades sound quality, even though I didn't notice it. Razer Surround also adds a lot of latency (at least it used to, when I tried it a few months ago) and the sound is not very good.


 

 "Speaker-out" is "line-out".
 I doubt that the onboard soundcard has actual speaker terminals for passive speakers.


----------



## BlueNinja0

thunda said:


> "Speaker-out" is "line-out".
> I doubt that the onboard soundcard has actual speaker terminals for passive speakers.


 
  
 You're probably right. I just thought it was different because some sound cards have a separate line-out and speaker-out.


----------



## yoboseyo

OK, so it's down to Essense One, Essence STX or Essence STX MK II. Is the Essence STX MK II an upgrade over the Essence STX if I'm bypassing the headamp and taking the lineout? I need the Essence STX as it offers RCA line-out


----------



## apaar123

Hello guys I will be gaming on my laptop. I will be using akg k712 pro and chord mojo. Is chord mojo good for gaming with akg k712 and if not which external sound card do you guys suggest. P.s I want a portable solution


----------



## rudyae86

apaar123 said:


> Hello guys I will be gaming on my laptop. I will be using akg k712 pro and chord mojo. Is chord mojo good for gaming with akg k712 and if not which external sound card do you guys suggest. P.s I want a portable solution




You would want to ask that question in the k712 thread. Im sure some people use that set up there.


----------



## apaar123

rudyae86 said:


> You would want to ask that question in the k712 thread. Im sure some people use that set up there.


I have asked there but nobody has replied


----------



## Hunched

So the Sennheiser GSX 1000 is out in Europe, but nobody is bothering to record its effects and post them on YouTube or wherever which disappoints me.
 I've been waiting to hear this thing since August, I can't buy it where I am yet. 
  
 If anyone here has it, please make a video showcasing its surround.


----------



## rudyae86

hunched said:


> So the Sennheiser GSX 1000 is out in Europe, but nobody is bothering to record its effects and post them on YouTube or wherever which disappoints me.
> I've been waiting to hear this thing since August, I can't buy it where I am yet.
> 
> If anyone here has it, please make a video showcasing its surround.


 
 It is already posted on Amazon's US website but it is not available yet. Won't be long before they have it in stock. I am still debating on purchasing the GSX1000 or not.....


----------



## TeeReQs

hunched said:


> So the Sennheiser GSX 1000 is out in Europe, but nobody is bothering to record its effects and post them on YouTube or wherever which disappoints me.
> I've been waiting to hear this thing since August, I can't buy it where I am yet.
> 
> If anyone here has it, please make a video showcasing its surround.


 
 I've been following the thread on overclockers and looks like shankly recorded some sound and is going to upload video today or tomorrow.


----------



## rudyae86

teereqs said:


> I've been following the thread on overclockers and looks like shankly recorded some sound and is going to upload video today or tomorrow.


 
 I'm on Overclockers but didn't see a thread about the GSX1000, do you have a link? Please?


----------



## TeeReQs

rudyae86 said:


> I'm on Overclockers but didn't see a thread about the GSX1000, do you have a link? Please?


 
 Here ya go:
  
 https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18749909


----------



## rudyae86

teereqs said:


> Here ya go:
> 
> https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18749909




Thanks bud.


I actually found it just a few minutes ago lol.

He showed a review from someone else and says that its really good.

Still skeptical but makes me want to try it out


----------



## dfwallace

Many of you have much more sophisticated sound setups than me. But, I'm happy with my new PC that I just finished:
  
 Mini-ITX form factor case - The Ncase M1  (one of the very smallest out there right now... was a tough build... tight quarters)
 Asus Z170i Pro Gaming motherboard
 i7-6700k
 Noctua C14 HSF CPU cooler
 nVidia 1080-FE
 Corsair DDR4-3200 (16GB)
 Corsair SF600 power supply
  
 With no room for a separate sound card with the Mini-ITX size, I went with an inexpensive DAC, the Udac3. My Sennheiser PC360 headset I use when the wife is home. When she is not home I use the powered M-Audio AV40's (2.0, I may get a sub-woofer). The RCA's and the headphones plug into the DAC. We play a lot of Battlefield 4 and 1 and have been happy with the sound.


----------



## SearchOfSub

dfwallace said:


> Many of you have much more sophisticated sound setups than me. But, I'm happy with my new PC that I just finished:
> 
> Mini-ITX form factor case - The Ncase M1  (one of the very smallest out there right now... was a tough build... tight quarters)
> Asus Z170i Pro Gaming motherboard
> ...





are you still under time to still return any parts with full money back?


----------



## dfwallace

Honestly, I don't know... why?


----------



## Yethal

dfwallace said:


> Many of you have much more sophisticated sound setups than me. But, I'm happy with my new PC that I just finished:
> 
> Mini-ITX form factor case - The Ncase M1  (one of the very smallest out there right now... was a tough build... tight quarters)
> Asus Z170i Pro Gaming motherboard
> ...


 

 Wow this case is small. as a fellow mini-ITX convert I salute You, building this must've been a bitch.


----------



## SearchOfSub

dfwallace said:


> Honestly, I don't know... why?





If you are, you should return the corsair for the new gskill 4333mhz. I got the 4000mhz and even OC to 3800 from another set of rams that are clocked at 3200, the difference in games is massive on my system. Much more 3d like and fluid.


----------



## Rhadamanthys

I've received my GSX 1000 just about two days ago. Haven't had much time to test it. I fired up Arma III though and compared it directly to the G5, which I also own. My issue with the G5 (and many others share it) was that it was nigh impossible to distinguish front from rear cues. They just sounded the same. Now with the GSX there is really a difference there and from the limited testing I did I can say that I'm quite happy with the surround solution they are offering.
  
 I don't really care much about all the different options available on the device, but suit yourself. You can also have up to four different settings profiles. I don't think I'll be using the touch display much, nor the volume wheel. Once I've found my perfect setting, I'll simply be switching between surround and stereo output. Volume I always control with a Razer Orb Weaver.
  
 The only minor gripe I'm having is that once you've set sound to surround 7.1 in Windows (which is mandatory if you wanna get surround through the GSX), you can only choose between 16 bit 44.1kHz and 48kHz. No 24 bit. The G5 gives you those 24bit options. Not that it makes much of a difference to my ears, but it's surely gonna bother some of you audiophiles. You can get 24 bit even up to 96kHz (in this case the GSX displays "2.0 HD" instead of "2.0"), but for that you need to set the device back to stereo in Windows sound settings. Which is rather inconvenient if you ask me. Again, not that I really care, my ears are too bad to hear a difference. But I've seen it possible on the G5, and I think for the price Sennheiser is asking they should have added 24 bit support. Maybe they'll enable it via firmware update, but I'm not sure if that's actually possible.
  
 All in all, whether the excellent surround and build quality justifies the hefty price is up for you to decide. I'll certainly be keeping it, but others might wanna wait for some proper reviews.


----------



## BlueNinja0

Thanks for your input on the GSX 1000 Rhadamanthys! Good to have opinions about it starting to flow.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Can you test if the Virtual Surround is also being sent to the line output?


----------



## Rhadamanthys

fegefeuer said:


> Can you test if the Virtual Surround is also being sent to the line output?


 

 Surround only works from the headphone jack.


----------



## BrightCandle

rhadamanthys said:


> Surround only works from the headphone jack.


 
 Well that is a bit of a bummer. The soundblaster Z's have a speaker variant that isn't as good as headphones but produces a better effect than just stereo.


----------



## pietcux

brightcandle said:


> Well that is a bit of a bummer. The soundblaster Z's have a speaker variant that isn't as good as headphones but produces a better effect than just stereo.



Sennheiser is a headphone maker. That is the field they excel on. I rather have them do this right than compromise on both headphone and speaker surround. Got the device a few days ago. Sounds very promising so far.


----------



## Blotto80

The big issue on not having the surround options on the line out is the ability to use the unit as a DAC attached to a separate amp. I'm sure that people with higher end cans would want to use their existing amp rather than the integrated amp in a gaming device.


----------



## pietcux

blotto80 said:


> The big issue on not having the surround options on the line out is the ability to use the unit as a DAC attached to a separate amp. I'm sure that people with higher end cans would want to use their existing amp rather than the integrated amp in a gaming device.



That is true. The only possibility you have is to accept the built in dac and to double amp the headphone out with the amp of your choice.


----------



## TeeReQs

I'd be all over it if it would work with Xbox


----------



## shankly1985

Hello guys I made a thread on here for the GSX and have posted some videos. 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/824923/sennheiser-gsx-1000-1200-impressions#post_13036862

Really enjoying this unit, far superior over anything else I have tested to date.


----------



## TwelveTrains

I'm thinking about picking up Battlefield 1. I have an older Titanium X-Fi card with CMSS-3D headphone. Will CMSS-3D headphone do anything for me in this game since OpenAL is no longer used? Or will I need a receiver capable of processing Dolby Atmos? The only other FPS I currently play is Overwatch, which is pretty easy because Dolby Atmos Headphone is just an option in the menu. I still need help understanding what I need to get 3D surround headphone for Battlefield 1.


----------



## TeeReQs

Until I got my X7 I was using a Titanium X-Fi HD with CMSS 3D and surround was good in BF1, Set windows to 5.1 and enable CMSS-3D and you're golden.


----------



## PurpleAngel

twelvetrains said:


> I'm thinking about picking up Battlefield 1. I have an older Titanium X-Fi card with CMSS-3D headphone. Will CMSS-3D headphone do anything for me in this game since OpenAL is no longer used? Or will I need a receiver capable of processing Dolby Atmos? The only other FPS I currently play is Overwatch, which is pretty easy because Dolby Atmos Headphone is just an option in the menu. I still need help understanding what I need to get 3D surround headphone for Battlefield 1.


 
 I think replacing your sound card with a modern A/V receiver is not very practical.
  
 Is your X-Fi sound card a Titanium-HD or Titanium (non-HD).
 If Non-HD, you might consider replacing it with a newer Sound Blaster Z sound card, for better audio quality.


----------



## TwelveTrains

purpleangel said:


> I think replacing your sound card with a modern A/V receiver is not very practical.
> 
> Is your X-Fi sound card a Titanium-HD or Titanium (non-HD).
> If Non-HD, you might consider replacing it with a newer Sound Blaster Z sound card, for better audio quality.


 
 It is the Non-HD version, but I send the stereo mix out through optical to my Schiit Bifrost/Asgard so audio quality isn't an issue. Basically the only thing I still use the card for is the rare game that supports CMSS-3D. Is the 3D headphone technology in the Sound Blaster Z better than CMSS-3D? SBX is it called?


----------



## PurpleAngel

twelvetrains said:


> It is the Non-HD version, but I send the stereo mix out through optical to my Schiit Bifrost/Asgard so audio quality isn't an issue. Basically the only thing I still use the card for is the rare game that supports CMSS-3D. Is the 3D headphone technology in the Sound Blaster Z better than CMSS-3D? SBX is it called?


 
  
 CMSS-3D Headphone vs SBX Headphone, not really something i'm qualified to compare.


----------



## BrightCandle

CMSS is pretty similar to SBX actually. I prefer SBX but its only marginally better. Some people get better results with CMSS.
  
 Not a lot has changed since the early 2000s in the binaural audio market for computers which is why so many people don't even realise its better.


----------



## TeeReQs

I think CMSS-3D and SBX are pretty comparable. Listen to some of the youtube videos comparing the two. I don't have a ton of time on my X7, but as far as I can tell SBX isn't any worse than CMSS-3D once you get the settings dialed in to your liking.


----------



## BlueNinja0

twelvetrains said:


> Will CMSS-3D headphone do anything for me in this game since OpenAL is no longer used?


 
  
  


> Basically the only thing I still use the card for is the rare game that supports CMSS-3D.


 
  
 CMSS-3D works will all games and programs that support surround sound output. You don't need OpenAL for that. OpenAL was better because it generated a 360º sound field instead of just 5.1 or 7.1, but CMSS-3D works perfectly well with 5.1 or 7.1 game output as well.


----------



## rabidgamer

Probably been answered before but wondering if anyone can let me know the best Xonar settings for Dolby Headphone? Using the Unified drivers if that helps.
  
 Not sure if the system speaker set up also needs changed or if tweaking inside the Xonar driver app is enough.
  
 Thanks,
 Lee


----------



## TeeReQs

rabidgamer said:


> Probably been answered before but wondering if anyone can let me know the best Xonar settings for Dolby Headphone? Using the Unified drivers if that helps.
> 
> Not sure if the system speaker set up also needs changed or if tweaking inside the Xonar driver app is enough.
> 
> ...


 
 Make sure you set windows speakers config to 5.1 or 7.1 (whatever your card supports), then enable Dolby Headphone in the Xonar settings. In game you usually choose the 5.1/7.1/Surround option if available.


----------



## TwelveTrains

Does the Creative Sound Blaster Audigy FX PCIe 5.1 have SBX headphone for gaming? Or just it's big brother the Soundblaster Z? I am looking at recommending a card to a friend.


----------



## PurpleAngel

twelvetrains said:


> Does the Creative Sound Blaster Audigy FX PCIe 5.1 have SBX headphone for gaming? Or just it's big brother the Soundblaster Z? I am looking at recommending a card to a friend.


 
  
 The SB Audigy FX is based on an older card with an older (DSP) audio processor.
 It list SBX Studio Pro software, but it may not be as good(?) as SBX Headphone on the newer cards
  
 If your looking at buying a card, get the Sound Blaster Z
 Better DAC chip and newer audio processor (Soundcore3D)


----------



## TwelveTrains

purpleangel said:


> The SB Audigy FX is based on an older card with an older (DSP) audio processor.
> It list SBX Studio Pro software, but it may not be as good(?) as SBX Headphone on the newer cards
> 
> If your looking at buying a card, get the Sound Blaster Z
> Better DAC chip and newer audio processor (Soundcore3D)


 
 If my friend wanted to stay under the 30 dollar mark, would you recommend the Asus Xonar DG over the SB Audigy FX? I know the Asus Xonar uses Dolby Headphone, which is a different technology than Creative uses, and some find it highly subjective. He has the Sennheiser HD 598, which isn't particularly hard to drive, so I think either would be able to drive it fine. It's just a matter of which has the better 3D headphone technology. The Soundblaster Z, probably beats both I would assume, but at a higher price.


----------



## PurpleAngel

twelvetrains said:


> If my friend wanted to stay under the 30 dollar mark, would you recommend the Asus Xonar DG over the SB Audigy FX? I know the Asus Xonar uses Dolby Headphone, which is a different technology than Creative uses, and some find it highly subjective. He has the Sennheiser HD 598, which isn't particularly hard to drive, so I think either would be able to drive it fine. It's just a matter of which has the better 3D headphone technology. The Soundblaster Z, probably beats both I would assume, but at a higher price.


 
  
 I have a personal preferrence for Asus Xonar (and Dolby Headphone) over Creative sound cards.
 But I just do not know how good the headphone surround sound software is with the Audigy FX.
 So I can't say the Xonar DG/DGX is a better sound card or not.
 I would guess the Audigy FX has a more powerful headphone amp
 But the DG/DGX can easily drive the 50-Ohm HD598.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Remember that you can also buy used. Last SBZ I bought cost me 40 Dollars.


----------



## dfwallace

I've been happy with my Sennheiser PC360 headset (when wife home) and either M-Audio AV40 (2.0... wife has them now) or the Monoprice (2.0) 5" speakers. Son and I play Battlefield 1.
  
 PC: Mini-ITX form factor, Ncase M1, Asus Z170i Pro Gaming MB, i7-6700k, Corsair 16GB DDR4-3200, nVidia 1080-FE, Corsair SF600 PS, 1TB SSD, uDAC5.


----------



## cefx

What usb gaming audio device has unamped line out?
I'm either getting an odac or OL dac. Hifiman he400s' and ifi ican se to amp them.
Curtent device is a Dragonfly Black.


----------



## PurpleAngel

cefx said:


> What usb gaming audio device has unamped line out?
> I'm either getting an odac or OL dac. Hifiman he400s' and ifi ican se to amp them.
> Curtent device is a Dragonfly Black.


 
  
 USB game audio device would be a USB sound card.
 The ODAC and OL DAC and Dragon Black would provide roughly the same digital to analog convertion as the USB sound card.
 So you would one use one of these at a time.


----------



## cefx

Yes I'm aware.

I am asking if there are any devices, usb based, tuned for gaming that would have line out. I already have an amplifier.
I only need straight from the DAC. Currently I'll eithet get hifimediy or Schiit Fulla 2. Or Odac revb.


----------



## Yethal

cefx said:


> Yes I'm aware.
> 
> I am asking if there are any devices, usb based, tuned for gaming that would have line out. I already have an amplifier.
> I only need straight from the DAC. Currently I'll eithet get hifimediy or Schiit Fulla 2. Or Odac revb.


 

 Sound Blaster Omni perhaps?


----------



## BrightCandle

Just used my GSX 1000 for the first time in Battlefield 1 and there is no doubt its a better more natural surround sound than creative, the sound quality and the ability to both pick out sounds and pinpoint them is improved. Having gone CMSS, Dolby headphone and of late the SBX pro its actually nice to have a solution that doesn't break the sound in order to add the surround sound in.
  
 But the darn thing has a large amount of hiss with a pair of IEMs and a pretty significant amount with the Sennheiser HD 598s, gave me a royal headache within a few minutes of gaming. Not sure if I just have a faulty one that needs replacement or its faulty by design as a few people online are complaining about this. For a £200 headphone amp designed for headphones 16-250 Ohms that just shouldn't happen, this is competing with a Schitt stack for price and hiss like that shouldn't be coming out of a £20 sound card let alone an amp of this cost.
  
 I also had some weirdness around USB, it refused to run from a USB 3.0 hub. It wouldn't share with any other devices so I had to give it its own port direct from the motherboard. That I can workaround with a longer USB cable for it but the hiss is a deal breaker.


----------



## canthearyou

cefx said:


> Yes I'm aware.
> 
> I am asking if there are any devices, usb based, tuned for gaming that would have line out. I already have an amplifier.
> I only need straight from the DAC. Currently I'll eithet get hifimediy or Schiit Fulla 2. Or Odac revb.



Creative G5


----------



## rudyae86

brightcandle said:


> Just used my GSX 1000 for the first time in Battlefield 1 and there is no doubt its a better more natural surround sound than creative, the sound quality and the ability to both pick out sounds and pinpoint them is improved. Having gone CMSS, Dolby headphone and of late the SBX pro its actually nice to have a solution that doesn't break the sound in order to add the surround sound in.
> 
> But the darn thing has a large amount of hiss with a pair of IEMs and a pretty significant amount with the Sennheiser HD 598s, gave me a royal headache within a few minutes of gaming. Not sure if I just have a faulty one that needs replacement or its faulty by design as a few people online are complaining about this. For a £200 headphone amp designed for headphones 16-250 Ohms that just shouldn't happen, this is competing with a Schitt stack for price and hiss like that shouldn't be coming out of a £20 sound card let alone an amp of this cost.
> 
> I also had some weirdness around USB, it refused to run from a USB 3.0 hub. It wouldn't share with any other devices so I had to give it its own port direct from the motherboard. That I can workaround with a longer USB cable for it but the hiss is a deal breaker.




You ha e a faulty one because I hear no hiss with my HD 598 and the GSX 1000 only powers up to 150ohms not 250


----------



## Knightfury

have tried asking a bit in MLE's gaming headphone thread (not... much traction so far), getting some rather conflicting ideas from trying to read around the subject...
  
 AKG 712pro - semi open or open? (Basically how bad is sound leakage).
 Will an SB-Z drive them?


----------



## PurpleAngel

knightfury said:


> Have tried asking a bit in MLE's gaming headphone thread (not... much traction so far), getting some rather conflicting ideas from trying to read around the subject...
> AKG 712pro - semi open or open? (Basically how bad is sound leakage).
> Will an SB-Z drive them?


 
  
 Technically the Sound blaster Z's built in headphone amplifier will drive the 62-Ohm AKG K712 Pro.
 But for music audio (optional) you might want to get a Bravo Ocean tube (hybrid) headphone amplifier and connect it to the SB-Z's Front Speaker jack


----------



## Knightfury

purpleangel said:


> Technically the Sound blaster Z's built in headphone amplifier will drive the 62-Ohm AKG K712 Pro.
> But for music audio (optional) you might want to get a Bravo Ocean tube (hybrid) headphone amplifier and connect it to the SB-Z's Front Speaker jack


 

 That's the sort of insight I was after, many thanks 
 I spotted your suggestion of the Bravo Ocean tube amp. There seems to be quite a few... well I assume they're knock-offs. Would you even mildly rate them? For my uses, I'd think the built in will do me but... nice to know for in future 

 edits: Excuse my abuse of English with their/you're etc  corrected now. My diction is usually excellent but I seem to have been rather lazy here


----------



## PurpleAngel

knightfury said:


> That's the sort of insight I was after, many thanks
> I spotted you're suggestion of the Bravo Ocean tube amp. There seems to be quite a few... well I assume their knock-offs. Would you even mildly rate them? For my uses, I'd think the built in will do me but... nice to know for in future


 
  
 Can't say for sure which of these low cost tube amps are better then others.
 I do like the case the Braco Ocean comes in.
 You might check out the website forum Rockgrotto, they have a subsection dedicated to these types of tube amps.
 You could just plug the K712 directly into the SB-Z (for FPS gaming), for now, take some time to decide on an add-on amplifier.


----------



## BrightCandle

I managed to fix the Sennheiser GSX 1000 hiss, it didn't like my USB 3.1 port but I moved it to a normal 3.0 port and the hiss is gone. I then tried listening to music and such with it and the output lacks impact, I think you can call the GSX 1000 a DAC with the best surround sound implementation you can get currently for games but its not a headphone amp. So I have fed it through the Schitt Magni 2 I have for fixing the SBZ issues and it does improve the sound quality, but its not super competitive with the SBZ -> Modi -> Magni -> HD 598 setup I had before. Its got vastly better surround sound in games, that is not even a contest but its definitely not as good for music or out through speakers.
  
 So I guess the DAC is kind of poor or the amplifier stage is just muffling the sound (or maybe its by design!), but its not an audiophile product but as a gamer its the best solution out there. I have tried the Xonar and Dolby Headphone, the Realtek and Razor solutions and used CMSS and SBX Pro for years. Its not quite Aureal 3D levels of positioning, I am not shooting heads through walls with this but its a lot closer than anything released recently. Its expensive but I rate it, highly.


----------



## rudyae86

knightfury said:


> have tried asking a bit in MLE's gaming headphone thread (not... much traction so far), getting some rather conflicting ideas from trying to read around the subject...
> 
> AKG 712pro - semi open or open? (Basically how bad is sound leakage).
> Will an SB-Z drive them?


 
 Dude, we already said the AKG K712 is semi-open lol.
  
 And yes, as PurpleAngel has said, SB Z will drive them fairly well. The AKG K712 and other K series headphones tend to scale better with better gear. SB Z is a good starting point but if you want better, there are other amps out there that can be chained to the SB Z front port or you can even get a better DAC w/ optical in plus an amp of your choice and look for that "better" solution.


----------



## pr0g4m1ng

I have a question regarding ZXR and SBX Pro Surround:
  
 Does using this have an (negative) effect on native HRTF (=Stereo) material?
  
 My settings:
 SBX Pro Surround: 50%
 Windows Speaker: 5.1
 Creative Speaker: Headphones
  
 The virtual barbershop demo e.g will work with these settings.


----------



## RandomSanity

Hello everyone, 
  
 I'm certainly an audio noob compared to most on the head-fi forums so I apologize for any confusion and/or incorrect assumptions. I've read through the main post and several good responses, but I haven't gone through all 250 pages. 
  
 I've been a huge PC gamer for the past 20 years, but I've never worried too much about the audio side of things. I have a Sound Blaster Z sound card that I generally use with headphones (ATH-AD700s), or bookshelf speakers for gaming. I've always made use of SBX Pro Studio surround for bianural headphone surround sound when playing first person shooters, and I've never tried the Dolby Headphone alternative offered by Asus/Xonar so I can't compare. Other game genres I play without any surround effects while using speakers or headphones. 
  
 I've recently become a lot more interested in getting a better experience for gaming audio and have been debating the Sound Blaster X7 and the Sennheiser GSX 1000/1200 so I can use some of my better headphones on my PC. I realize these are quite different products, but I could make use of either. I've read a lot of reviews and I really couldn't decide between the two. 
  
 I've unexpectedly come into a bunch of other audio equipment to try out and I'm hoping to get some recommendations or suggestions. 
  
 I've got the following equipment sitting on my floor. 
  
*Amp/Dac/Etc.*
 Asus Essence One (x2 for some reason, maybe different opamps, I haven't checked) 
 Zero (version 09) 
 Woo Audio WA7 - one of the tubes on the top is broken, is it worth replacing to try this out? Looks like the replacement tubes are about $55. Hopefully the amp is functional otherwise. 
 Asus Xonar Essence STX Sound Card
  
  
*Headphones*
 Dennon D7000
 Beyerdynamic 770 Pro 250
 Beyerdynamic T1
 Sennheiser HD 650
  
 I've read through Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide and can certainly compare and choose which headphones I like myself, but I would appreciate any advice on the best setup/configuration to try out with a focus on PC gaming. Would any combination of the above come out comparable to or superior to the X7 / GSX 1000 options? Note that I do also listen to music and watch movies on my computer, but I have a main living room setup that focuses on this so a lot of this may be overkill. 
  
 I'll most likely be selling any of the above that I can't make use of and could use the proceeds to buy a more suitable product if it's recommended. I realize Asus also has a new line of gamer-centric sound cards (strix soar?) available but I haven't bothered to research these yet. 
  
 If it helps, my main living room setup for music and movies is a NAD T747 with a Tannoy dc4lcr and a pair of KRK monitors. 
  
 Thanks!


----------



## PurpleAngel

randomsanity said:


> I'm certainly an audio noob compared to most on the head-fi forums so I apologize for any confusion and/or incorrect assumptions. I've read through the main post and several good responses, but I haven't gone through all 250 pages.
> I've been a huge PC gamer for the past 20 years, but I've never worried too much about the audio side of things. I have a Sound Blaster Z sound card that I generally use with headphones (ATH-AD700s), or bookshelf speakers for gaming. I've always made use of SBX Pro Studio surround for bianural headphone surround sound when playing first person shooters, and I've never tried the Dolby Headphone alternative offered by Asus/Xonar so I can't compare. Other game genres I play without any surround effects while using speakers or headphones.
> I've recently become a lot more interested in getting a better experience for gaming audio and have been debating the Sound Blaster X7 and the Sennheiser GSX 1000/1200 so I can use some of my better headphones on my PC. I realize these are quite different products, but I could make use of either. I've read a lot of reviews and I really couldn't decide between the two.
> *Amp/Dac/Etc.*
> ...


 
 Hopefully you disabled the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the SB-Z card
  
 I'm guessing the Creative X7 will not offer any better SBX Headphone surround sound, then the SB-Z.
 (As the SB-Z with it's SoundCore3D audio processor, is connected to the PCI-E bus, it might(?) provide better SBX Headphone, then the X7)
 So I say to optically connect the SB-Z to the Essence One, so the SB-Z provides SBX Headphone surround sound and the Essence One provides the DAC function and the headphone amplifier.
 If you want to try Dolby Headphone, replace the SB-Z with the Xonar Essence STX, connect the STX optically to the Essence One.


----------



## BlueNinja0

pr0g4m1ng said:


> I have a question regarding ZXR and SBX Pro Surround:
> 
> Does using this have an (negative) effect on native HRTF (=Stereo) material?
> 
> ...


 
  
 It might still work to some degree, but you're putting HRTF on top of HRTF, so it certainly would not be optimal.


----------



## cefx

randomsanity said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm certainly an audio noob compared to most on the head-fi forums so I apologize for any confusion and/or incorrect assumptions. I've read through the main post and several good responses, but I haven't gone through all 250 pages.
> 
> ...


 
 Do you get to keep the woo audio? Replace the tube. Buy a good USB dac like ODAC, Modi Multibit, HifimeDIY Sabre, etc.
 DAC -> woo -> headphones.
  
 Never look back.


----------



## Atrumitos

Hello everyone. I'm considering changing my audio setup from X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty pro -> 5.1 HTIB to... something involving headphones  My main concerns when it comes to headphones is comfort, considering how I tend to game for relatively extended periods of time. Other than that, I'm looking for something that doesn't distort the audio from my games but doesn't ruin the immersion by muting sounds either.

Those two factors and my budget considered, my eyes are on the BeyerDynamic DT 990 Pro (140 euros) or the Sennheiser HD558 (which is on sale for some reason at 115 euros). First question... Any other suggestions or any reasons I should prefer one or the other (audio and comfort wise)?

Second question is whether I should switch my sound card to something more appropriate. As I said previously I am using a X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro on a windows 10 system. It's currently connected to my HTIB via optical (Dolby Digital live encoder). What I plan to do is use the headphones while gaming and easily switch to the HTIB for movies with friends or whatever. From my experience, the drivers aren't exactly the best in windows 10, and my card doesn't have any specific headphone features.

So the question is, should I upgrade to Sound Blaster Zx in order to drive them with surround audio in games without having to jump through hoops or am I set? Maybe some sort of addon or some other card?

Thank you for your answers in advance 


Got the AKG K612 Pro instead. Go figure. The sound card seems to be able to drive them just fine too and I haven't raised the volume over 60%. If someone wants to recommend something anyway, or for future reference, I'm open to suggestions


----------



## RandomSanity

cefx said:


> Do you get to keep the woo audio? Replace the tube. Buy a good USB dac like ODAC, Modi Multibit, HifimeDIY Sabre, etc.
> DAC -> woo -> headphones.
> 
> Never look back.


 
  
 Yes, I can keep the Woo Audio if I want. I ordered two new tubes off ebay, which will take a while to arrive. I'll give it a shot as you suggested. 
  
 To expand on my question with your suggestion in mind, will using a USB DAC not be less beneficial than using a SPDIF amp? I would like to continue to make use of SBX Surround when playing games, and I've heard there is a lot of degradation by re-routing this through USB rather than going through the sound card and SPDIF. 
  
 In the mean time I'm going to try out the setup including the Essence One as suggested by Purple Angel. Unfortunately I don't have much experience to compare this to.


----------



## cefx

Oh that's my preferential recommendation. I have lost any interest in surround sound in headphones, personally. I'm a convert to USB based audio over anything else.
  
 SPDIF out is fine, but I'm not familiar with it at all.


----------



## RandomSanity

I've spent the last 5 hours trying to get SPDIF to output some form of audio, followed 20+ guides and it just won't work.. I'm ready to smash this piece of crap sound blaster z into a million pieces. /endrant.


----------



## BlueNinja0

randomsanity said:


> I've spent the last 5 hours trying to get SPDIF to output some form of audio, followed 20+ guides and it just won't work.. I'm ready to smash this piece of crap sound blaster z into a million pieces. /endrant.


 
  
 Have you tried a different receiver?


----------



## thuNDa

randomsanity said:


> I've spent the last 5 hours trying to get SPDIF to output some form of audio, followed 20+ guides and it just won't work.. I'm ready to smash this piece of crap sound blaster z into a million pieces. /endrant.


 

 When i used an optical cable(amazon basics) for the first time, i wasn't aware that you have to remove the (transparent 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) cap.


----------



## BearMonster

randomsanity said:


> I've spent the last 5 hours trying to get SPDIF to output some form of audio, followed 20+ guides and it just won't work.. I'm ready to smash this piece of crap sound blaster z into a million pieces. /endrant.


 
  
 If you are on windows 10, download the windows 10 driver.


----------



## PurpleAngel

randomsanity said:


> I've spent the last 5 hours trying to get SPDIF to output some form of audio, followed 20+ guides and it just won't work.. I'm ready to smash this piece of crap sound blaster z into a million pieces. /endrant.


 
  
 Did you disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when you installed the SB-Z card?
 In the control panel, in the Sound sub-section, in the Playback tab, what is the default audio device?


----------



## Diji1

Presumably this has been pointed out already but just though I'd pipe in with Overwatch.

Specifically Dolby Atmos in Overwatch: it is goddam amazing. It's freakishly good to my ears as far as positional accuracy and it's everywhere. Up, down, left, right, back and forward. There's no "is that coming from there?" moments, it's just real. So good!

Setup is AKG K712 using X-Fi Titanium HD (which is not a suitable amp for these headphones I think - SB ZxR is on the way.


----------



## rudyae86

diji1 said:


> Presumably this has been pointed out already but just though I'd pipe in with Overwatch.
> 
> Specifically Dolby Headphone in Overwatch: it is goddam amazing. It's freakishly good to my ears as far as positional accuracy and it's everywhere. Up, down, left, right, back and forward. There's no "is that coming from there?" moments, it's just real. So good!
> 
> Setup is AKG K712 using X-Fi Titanium HD (which is not a suitable amp for these headphones I think - SB ZxR is on the way.


 
 uh I think you have them confused. Creative Labs sound cards use SBX, not Dolby Headphone. Overwatch also has it's own Dolby Atmos for headphones though in which you can enable with or without a sound card. I wonder if you have it set up correctly?


----------



## Diji1

rudyae86 said:


> uh I think you have them confused. Creative Labs sound cards use SBX, not Dolby Headphone. Overwatch also has it's own Dolby Atmos for headphones though in which you can enable with or without a sound card. I wonder if you have it set up correctly?



 


My mistake, i meant Atmos rather than headphone.


----------



## Fegefeuer

*latest Windows 10 Preview builds offer Atmos support for headphones* which you can apply to the sound card or output of your choice. Many games with VR in mind (in addition) will offer binaural renderers/support (see Overwatch, RE7 etc.). 
  
 Sooner or later all these fancy cards will disappear unless they get creative.


----------



## rudyae86

fegefeuer said:


> *latest Windows 10 Preview builds offer Atmos support for headphones* which you can apply to the sound card or output of your choice. Many games with VR in mind (in addition) will offer binaural renderers/support (see Overwatch, RE7 etc.).
> 
> Sooner or later all these fancy cards will disappear unless they get creative.


 
 Wow didn't know that. I know they are working on briging some other stuff in (Game mode, which I am still a bit eh about it). But yes, if this becomes the norm with Atmos and Binaural audio in games, sound cards will become a bit of niche market, mainly for the ones that don't know much about audio or maybe to make volume control easier? (like control chat and stuff, which many already do anyways).
  
 I look forward to these technologies in the coming months


----------



## BlueNinja0

fegefeuer said:


> *latest Windows 10 Preview builds offer Atmos support for headphones* which you can apply to the sound card or output of your choice. Many games with VR in mind (in addition) will offer binaural renderers/support (see Overwatch, RE7 etc.).
> 
> Sooner or later all these fancy cards will disappear unless they get creative.


 

 Oh my god... Do you have a source? That is the best news for virtual surround in years! You mean we will be able to apply the Dolby Atmos for headphones effect on the OS level and all games that output surround sound will support it in principle? That is amazing. Also, Dolby Atmos is one of the best HRTF I've heard.


----------



## Diji1

blueninja0 said:


> Oh my god... Do you have a source? That is the best news for virtual surround in years! You mean we will be able to apply the Dolby Atmos for headphones effect on the OS level and all games that output surround sound will support it in principle? That is amazing. Also, Dolby Atmos is one of the best HRTF I've heard.



 


It really is mindblowingly good in overwatch.


----------



## Fegefeuer

blueninja0 said:


> Oh my god... Do you have a source? That is the best news for virtual surround in years! You mean we will be able to apply the Dolby Atmos for headphones effect on the OS level and all games that output surround sound will support it in principle? That is amazing. Also, Dolby Atmos is one of the best HRTF I've heard.


 
  
 it's basically everywhere since December.
  
 an official quote for instance
  
 "_Mike Ybarra, Xbox’s Head of Platform Engineering, had this to say on our exciting partnership: “At Team Xbox, we are all gamers first, and bringing Dolby Atmos support to Xbox One and Windows 10 gaming next year will bring you even further inside the action and sound of your favorite titles. A big thank you to the team at Dolby for their partnership; we’re excited to share more with the Xbox community next year.”_
_Read more at http://news.xbox.com/2016/12/14/dolby-atmos-xbox-one-windows-10/#QtmzVlQJI9QpxSyc.99_"

  

 You’ll be able to experience Dolby Atmos in your home theater, assuming you have a Dolby Atmos enabled speaker system or soundbar. *But you don’t need to have that kind of equipment – it will be possible to enable virtually any pair of headphones with the Dolby Atmos experience.*


----------



## BlueNinja0

> Originally Posted by *Fegefeuer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> You’ll be able to experience Dolby Atmos in your home theater, assuming you have a Dolby Atmos enabled speaker system or soundbar. *But you don’t need to have that kind of equipment – it will be possible to enable virtually any pair of headphones with the Dolby Atmos experience.*


 
  
 Why would I need Dolby Atmos support on my A/V receiver if Windows supports it natively? Can't Windows just use Dolby Atmos to produce a 7.1 or 5.1 LPCM signal through HDMI to my receiver? The same way we decode, for example, Dolby Digital in the media player and send the 7.1 channels through LPCM to the receiver?


----------



## Yethal

blueninja0 said:


> Why would I need Dolby Atmos support on my A/V receiver if Windows supports it natively? Can't Windows just use Dolby Atmos to produce a 7.1 or 5.1 LPCM signal through HDMI to my receiver? The same way we decode, for example, Dolby Digital in the media player and send the 7.1 channels through LPCM to the receiver?


 

 Dolby Atmos adds additional four "height channels" - speakers designed to produce sound upwards. Your A/V receiver would need to physically be able to output sound to those four additional speakers.


----------



## BlueNinja0

yethal said:


> Dolby Atmos adds additional four "height channels" - speakers designed to produce sound upwards. Your A/V receiver would need to physically be able to output sound to those four additional speakers.


 

 Yes, I'm aware it has additional channels to the standard 7.1, but what I mean is, when using Windows, I won't necessarily need my A/V receiver to support Atmos decoding since Windows will be able to decode it itself and spit it out in LPCM through HDMI. HDMI 2.0 supports 32 channels of audio, which is plenty for Atmos I guess.


----------



## Yethal

blueninja0 said:


> Yes, I'm aware it has additional channels to the standard 7.1, but what I mean is, when using Windows, I won't necessarily need my A/V receiver to support Atmos decoding since Windows will be able to decode it itself and spit it out in LPCM through HDMI. HDMI 2.0 supports 32 channels of audio, which is plenty for Atmos I guess.


 

 Yes but if the AV receiver doesn't support th height channels all You're left with is a standard Dolby TrueHD track with a spatial substream added to it (home theater implementation of Atmos differs greatly from the commercial implementation).


----------



## BlueNinja0

yethal said:


> Yes but if the AV receiver doesn't support th height channels all You're left with is a standard Dolby TrueHD track with a spatial substream added to it (home theater implementation of Atmos differs greatly from the commercial implementation).


 

 Yes ofc, I understand I would need the height physical channels to take benefit of it. I was just trying to understand if the Atmos encoding will still work more or less like the previous encoding schemes.


----------



## NIoSaT

Hello,
 I am quite new to High end PC audio.
 So I read that guide looking for something amazing to replace my trusty Logitech G35.
  
 Since there are 251 pages full of answers I did not manage to read them all so therefore my question.
  
 As good as the initial post is... is seems utterly out of date to me (ok it was last modified 2013 so I guess that's only fair).
 So all these "amazing" APIs like DirectSound 3D, Aureal and all the other names I never heard before, that give "perfect" positional audio seem to be non existent in modern games. He talks about still using them after vista ... but vista itself is now over 10 years old... 
  
 So my question(s) is:
 Is there still a way to use these old awesome APIs in modern games without to much fiddling, because I think to much fiddling in modern games will get you banned kinda fast.
  
 Or is there a new thing that has replaced all of this and works super good with all the new games and all I need is a pair of good Headphones with a nice big sound-stage?
  
 Or in other words I am a bit lost in all this (outdated?) information and could somebody give me some directions on what to look for?


----------



## Yethal

niosat said:


> Hello,
> I am quite new to High end PC audio.
> So I read that guide looking for something amazing to replace my trusty Logitech G35.
> 
> ...


 

 Either buy a soundcard that supports ALchemy or download an Insider Preview version of Windows 10 that has built-in support for Dolby Atmos.


----------



## BlueNinja0

> Originally Posted by *NIoSaT* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> So all these "amazing" APIs like DirectSound 3D, Aureal and all the other names I never heard before, that give "perfect" positional audio seem to be non existent in modern games. He talks about still using them after vista ... but vista itself is now over 10 years old...
> 
> So my question(s) is:
> Is there still a way to use these old awesome APIs in modern games without to much fiddling, because I think to much fiddling in modern games will get you banned kinda fast.


 
  
 Those APIs were used in the game engines. You can't get, say Battlefield 4 and use DirectSound3D on it. You can however, take advantage of DirectSound3D and EAX if you're playing older games that supported it, such as Source Engine games. He talks about Vista, but Windows 10 still uses the same audio subsystem as Vista, so you can use Creative Alchemy to emulate those effects in software.
  
 If you're just talking about using virtual surround in whatever games, just wait for Windows to get the native Dolby Atmos support or download an Insider Preview as Yethal said.


----------



## NIoSaT

Wow that was fast!
  
 So if understand this right ALchemy with a fitting sound card will "transform" all my games so they have "amazing" positional audio, so even the newest ones like Overwatch, For Honor, BF1 etc. ?
  
 And Dolby Atmos will do the same without need for a certain sound-card?
  
 ---EDIT---
 I must have missed BlueNinja0s post while posting.
  
 OK so ALchemy only gives benefits to older games and Dolby Atmos will give me benefits to all games, Overwatch seems to specially support it but other games that don't specially support Atmos will still get decent 7.1 Surround out of it.
  
  
 Well Thanks for the answers !
  
 Since I am already in the Insider Programm I will have to find the option to turn Atmos on and buy a pair of decent headphones


----------



## BlueNinja0

niosat said:


> Wow that was fast!
> 
> So if understand this right ALchemy with a fitting sound card will "transform" all my games so they have "amazing" positional audio, so even the newest ones like Overwatch, For Honor, BF1 etc. ?
> 
> And Dolby Atmos will do the same without need for a certain sound-card?


 
  
 No, ALchemy will only work with DirectSound games, so it's mostly for older games. Modern games don't use that.
  
 And yes, Dolby Atmos will theoretically provide you with virtual surround for any app, but we're still waiting for it's release. Some games already have it built-in, like Overwatch. You just need to enable it in the settings.


----------



## NIoSaT

I missed your first post while typing my own nowI read it and understand it 
  
 ALchemy for older games - so I guess I wont be looking into that
  
 Dolby Atmos for all games (and even watching youtube videos etc.) and some newer games specially implement it to make it even more awesome
  
 Thanks again for the answers


----------



## BrightCandle

The way DirectX Audio currently works is it allows a couple of different ways to play sound, one of which is to play a sound at a particular location and DirectX already includes some sort of HRTF and HRIR to map that to speakers or headphones depending on your setup. I presume Dolby Atmos would replace that algorithm with the their solution, whether that be for your speakers or your headphones.
  
 But its also possible with DirectX audio to play sounds out a particular speaker, bypassing all the relative location stuff and instead just play out the speakers. Games often do this for music or cutscene videos etc. But there might (I have never checked) be middleware that bypasses the location DirectX stuff and writes directly to the speaker layout, and that wouldn't work with Atmos.


----------



## BrightCandle

Dolby Atmos - does anyone else feel like this is just PC audio system going off to the TV's and then coming back? Because its arguably how PC sound works today its just Microsoft hides how the implementation works and so does Dolby. Neither gives the same functionality to get to the audio stream and raw position and world information we saw back in the 2000's with Aureal and Creative sound cards. It just feels like a competitor for what MS has been doing ever since Vista released.
  
 Thankfully we can try Dolby Atmos in Overwatch and personally I think its meh. Compared to the GSX 1000 and SBZ its nowhere near for headphones. I put it about the same as Dolby headphone, if I still had a DH setup I would probably record them both and do a very deep comparison because I suspect they sound almost identical. Which means its better than Microsoft's generic implementation but doesn't compete favourably with CMSS, SBX pro or the surround on GSX 1000.


----------



## BlueNinja0

brightcandle said:


> Dolby Atmos - does anyone else feel like this is just PC audio system going off to the TV's and then coming back? Because its arguably how PC sound works today its just Microsoft hides how the implementation works and so does Dolby. Neither gives the same functionality to get to the audio stream and raw position and world information we saw back in the 2000's with Aureal and Creative sound cards. It just feels like a competitor for what MS has been doing ever since Vista released.


 
  
 What do you mean "going off to the TV"?
  
 The virtual surround solutions we have nowadays take an X number of channels (typically 7.1) from the game and apply the HRTF to that. Yes, this is inferior to the Aureal and Creative systems, in which there was complete 3D sound rendering sent to an arbitrary number of speakers (headphones, 2.1, 7.1, etc).
  
 How I see it, Dolby Atmos is working on that same principle. For example, in Overwatch, the Dolby Atmos for Headphones setting does exactly what Creative CMSS 3D for Headphones did back then. The engine has the 3D sound space and renders that to the headphones with HRTF.
 What I'm hoping is that the Dolby Atmos integrated in Windows will do is do this for all applications, specially for games that directly support Dolby Atmos, and also for games that just output standard 7.1 sound (albeit inferior in quality). From the screenshot I've seen around this seems to be the case, which is great news.


----------



## BrightCandle

blueninja0 said:


> What do you mean "going off to the TV"?
> 
> The virtual surround solutions we have nowadays take an X number of channels (typically 7.1) from the game and apply the HRTF to that. Yes, this is inferior to the Aureal and Creative systems, in which there was complete 3D sound rendering sent to an arbitrary number of speakers (headphones, 2.1, 7.1, etc).
> 
> ...


 
 No that isn't true, take a look at the DirectSound API (https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee416765(v=vs.85).aspx) and (https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee418756(v=vs.85).aspx). The DX sound API is based on positioned 3D objects and then it generates the appropraite sound in the almost all games. Dolby Atmos is a competitor for this as it does the same thing with a similar interface. Windows contains a HRTF and HRIR already but they are pretty bad and they only support basic reverb effects and not a lot else, its less capable than EAX was and certainly doesn't give environmental sound as well as Aureal did. But to claim its just 5.1/7.1 channels isn't true, it could be a game can play sound out to speakers but that isn't how they work in anything but the video based cutscenes.


----------



## BlueNinja0

brightcandle said:


> No that isn't true


 
  
 I don't understand what part of what I said you disagree with. It seems to be in accordance with what you just said.


----------



## audi03nthusiast

Hello everyone.
  
 Is there a reason to get X-Fi Titanium HD, if I already have X-Fi HomeTheater HD with MUSE 02 op-amp? I know that Titanium HD uses CA20K2 with 80 million transistors, while HomeTheater HD uses EMU20K2 with 61 million transistors. Titanium HD also has SNR of 122 dB, while HomeTheater HD has SNR of 109dB.


----------



## PurpleAngel

audi03nthusiast said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> Is there a reason to get X-Fi Titanium HD, if I already have X-Fi HomeTheater HD with MUSE 02 op-amp? I know that Titanium HD uses CA20K2 with 80 million transistors, while HomeTheater HD uses EMU20K2 with 61 million transistors. Titanium HD also has SNR of 122 dB, while HomeTheater HD has SNR of 109dB.


 
  
 Might help to know the prices of what you pay for the Titanium-HD and how much you can sell the HomeTheater HD for?
 If this is for headphones, consider getting a headphone amplifier, to plug into the Titanium-HD's RCA jacks.


----------



## audi03nthusiast

purpleangel said:


> Might help to know the prices of what you pay for the Titanium-HD and how much you can sell the HomeTheater HD for?
> If this is for headphones, consider getting a headphone amplifier, to plug into the Titanium-HD's RCA jacks.


 
 I can get Titanium HD for about the same price I just got (and I am able to sell for) HomeTheater HD. But I am wondering, if there is any noticeable difference in sound quality, since HomeTheater HD is made from quality components either, plus the op-amp is changed for a better sounding MUSE 02. And HomeTheater HD has features that are missing in Titanium HD. I will use it mostly for older games I like to play.
 P.S. I already read your advice about plugging a headphone amplifier into the Titanium-HD's RCA jacks in your previous posts and planning to do so


----------



## rayu-x

Hey guys i got some noob questions about how to configure battlefield 1 in the following setup:
  
 Sennheiser HD 598
 Xonar DGX (just ordered one)
  
 Old setup:
 Mixamp Pro 2013
 HyperX Cloud Core
  
 I normaly play with some friends using the mixamp pro (usb conected) and pair with a HyperX Cloud Core mostly for the mic, but when i play alone i used the HD 598. Since i ordered the DGX i would like to properly configured the game and the sound card, so the question are:
  
 What in game audio configuration should i use?
 And what is the recomended configuration on the DGX?
  
 In other train of thougs, there is any reason to use the mixamp pro any more? Are any improve conecting the mixamp pro with the optic cable?
  
 Thx for the time guys.


----------



## Yethal

rayu-x said:


> Hey guys i got some noob questions about how to configure battlefield 1 in the following setup:
> 
> Sennheiser HD 598
> Xonar DGX (just ordered one)
> ...



In game set to surround, home theater NOT headphones

In windows audio setting set speakers to 7.1 NOT stereo

In asus panel enable Dolby Headphone.

No point in using mixamp.


----------



## rayu-x

yethal said:


> In game set to surround, home theater NOT headphones
> 
> In windows audio setting set speakers to 7.1 NOT stereo
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thx a lot for the help that was fast haha. I am going to use some custom drivers for the DGX card, any recomendation on that matter?


----------



## Yethal

rayu-x said:


> Thx a lot for the help that was fast haha. I am going to use some custom drivers for the DGX card, any recomendation on that matter?



Asus Unified Drivers should do the job.


----------



## rayu-x

yethal said:


> Asus Unified Drivers should do the job.


 
  
 Once again thx for the reply, that was my first choice i will stick with those.


----------



## bigbeard

Is anyone using windows 10 insider fast ring?
  
 There is an option for windows sonic, which is surround sound processing for 7.1
  
 I currently have an x7 attached to my pc by usb and have the regular windows speaker config set to 5.1, in game set to surround, and sbx on. However, this is limited to 5.1 (in the x7). 
  
 How would I go about integrating windows sonic? should I shut off sbx in that case? 
  
 There is a dolby atmos option for headphones too, but that is not yet available.
  
*One of the changes that is being rolled out now in the Xbox Insider program is surround sound support and while it’s not a massive change, it should be a welcome addition to those who like to play the console with headphones. The change appears to be native virtual surround option for Xbox One headphones and it is being called “Windows Sonic for Headphones.”*
*This feature gives players a feel like they are using virtual surround sound and apparently its being offered for Windows 10 through the insider program as well. While the update is only available to a select few now, it seems as though we should expect it to roll out to a bigger audience in the near future.*


----------



## Yethal

bigbeard said:


> Is anyone using windows 10 insider fast ring?
> 
> There is an option for windows sonic, which is surround sound processing for 7.1
> 
> ...


 

 Turn off SBX so the two surround algorithms don't end up on top of each other.


----------



## motorwayne

G'day there, I still have the X-Fi Titanium HD in my PC and love it...anything better out there now for gaming?
  
 Cheers


----------



## BlueNinja0

bigbeard said:


> Is anyone using windows 10 insider fast ring?


 
  
 In what build version did that feature appear? Is there a schedule to when it should be released to stable?


----------



## bigbeard

Not too sure... It was there for the last 4 or 5 builds. I think the creators update will be available sometime in April for all users, though i don't know if it will include this new 7.1 audio processing and dolby atmos for headphone (which looks like will need to be purchased from the windows app store)


----------



## BlueNinja0

bigbeard said:


> Not too sure... It was there for the last 4 or 5 builds. I think the creators update will be available sometime in April for all users, though i don't know if it will include this new 7.1 audio processing and dolby atmos for headphone (which looks like will need to be purchased from the windows app store)


 

 Thanks m8. Be sure to post your impressions on Windows Sonic surround processing when you try it.


----------



## Darch

Hi everyone,
  
 Apologies for asking Qs that you're probably all sick of answering, but the thread is huuuge! Basically, I'll be building my first gaming PC in a decade during the summer. I want it to be capable of great gaming audio, but i'm pretty much ten years out of date, hence the questions. I'll try to keep them short and to the point.
  

I already have a pair of Q701s for music listening - are they well suited to gaming re: positioning?
I enjoyed CMSS-3D (with an Xtreme Gamer). Is CMSS-D still used? If not what's the current equivalent?
Kind of the same question.... If CMSS-3D is still a good solution, should I buy the Titanium Fatality Pro I found in a local pawn shop for €25, or are there modern sound cards that can do a better job re: positional audio in games?
Is it worth getting a small desktop headphone amp to run between the sound card and the 701s? What about a DAC?
Am I over-thinking this, and should be plenty satisfied with modern onboard audio for games and music?
  
  
 Sorry again for the noob questions... Just want to get this right!


----------



## BlueNinja0

CMSS-3D does not take advantage of DirectAudio or OpenAL in modern games because games don't use these APIs anymore, but it's still perfectly viable as a standard 7.1 to headphones virtual surround solution.
  
 If you plan on getting a dedicated DAC, be aware that many software virtual surround solutions don't support outputting to it. Though it seems Windows 10 is getting native support for virtual surround on the OS level soon, which will make it possible.


----------



## Darch

blueninja0 said:


> CMSS-3D does not take advantage of DirectAudio or OpenAL in modern games because games don't use these APIs anymore, but it's still perfectly viable as a standard 7.1 to headphones virtual surround solution.
> 
> If you plan on getting a dedicated DAC, be aware that many software virtual surround solutions don't support outputting to it. Though it seems Windows 10 is getting native support for virtual surround on the OS level soon, which will make it possible.


 
  
 Thanks, much appreciated!

 Your post reminded me that I actually had another question, about W10. Are the older cards (such as the Fatality) still getting driver support for new operating systems (either official or unofficial)?
  
 Also, are there any go-to or frequently recommended solutions for modern pc gaming audio, or would we be just splitting hairs?


----------



## BrightCandle

darch said:


> Also, are there any go-to or frequently recommended solutions for modern pc gaming audio, or would we be just splitting hairs?


 
 The two best solutions for 7.1 to headphone surround sound are the SBX GSX 1000 from Sennheiser and the SBX pro from Soundblaster with the Soundblaster Z range of cards. the Sennheiser is better in Battlefield 1 but in Arma 3 I find the Soundblaster Z is better as there is an odd occlusion to the rear in ACRE with Sennheiser. That is due to Arma 3 being a 5.1 game and the Sennheiser being a 7.1 device.
  
 The Dolby headphone cards are OK but SBX pro is clearly better for gaming.


----------



## bigbeard

brightcandle said:


> The two best solutions for 7.1 to headphone surround sound are the SBX GSX 1000 from Sennheiser and the SBX pro from Soundblaster with the Soundblaster Z range of cards. the Sennheiser is better in Battlefield 1 but in Arma 3 I find the Soundblaster Z is better as there is an odd occlusion to the rear in ACRE with Sennheiser. That is due to Arma 3 being a 5.1 game and the Sennheiser being a 7.1 device.
> 
> The Dolby headphone cards are OK but SBX pro is clearly better for gaming.



 



I have a sb z in my pc and x7 for my console... never saw a7.1 option. What an i missing here?


----------



## Darch

brightcandle said:


> The two best solutions for 7.1 to headphone surround sound are the SBX GSX 1000 from Sennheiser and the SBX pro from Soundblaster with the Soundblaster Z range of cards. the Sennheiser is better in Battlefield 1 but in Arma 3 I find the Soundblaster Z is better as there is an odd occlusion to the rear in ACRE with Sennheiser. That is due to Arma 3 being a 5.1 game and the Sennheiser being a 7.1 device.
> 
> The Dolby headphone cards are OK but SBX pro is clearly better for gaming.


 
  
 Thanks. Hadn't heard of the Sennheiser unit... Will look into it now!


----------



## BlueNinja0

darch said:


> Thanks. Hadn't heard of the Sennheiser unit... Will look into it now!


 
  
 You might want to try the Windows integrated virtual Dolby Atmos virtual surround in the insider builds before spending money on hardware.


----------



## Knightfury

Pretty sure I'm all set correctly but would anyone be so kind as to roll off the settings for the sbz?

Windows 10 - surround not headphone
Speakers - 7.1

Much else?


----------



## PurpleAngel

darch said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Apologies for asking Qs that you're probably all sick of answering, but the thread is huuuge! Basically, I'll be building my first gaming PC in a decade during the summer. I want it to be capable of great gaming audio, but I'm pretty much ten years out of date, hence the questions. I'll try to keep them short and to the point.
> 
> ...


 
  
 It might help to know the make and model of your motherboard?
 While I think the TFP (Titanium Fatality Pro) is a good buy, for $25 Euros, unless you into older FPS games. might as well just spend a little more for a Sound Blaster Z sound card.
 The SB-Z card comes with a better DAC chip then the TFP and better built in headphone amplifier.
 Also as the Z series cards is what Creative is currently trying to sell, chances are the bulk of what Creative spends for driver improvement, is going for the Z series.
 (I believe Creative stopped a few years ago making any hardware that uses the DSP chip that is use on cards like the Titanium Fatality Pro)


----------



## PurpleAngel

darch said:


> Thanks, much appreciated!
> Your post reminded me that I actually had another question, about W10. Are the older cards (such as the Fatality) still getting driver support for new operating systems (either official or unofficial)?
> Also, are there any go-to or frequently recommended solutions for modern pc gaming audio, or would we be just splitting hairs?


 
  
 Looks like the last driver update for the Titanium series is January 2016, so 14 months ago.
 While the Z series just had a driver update Jan 2017, so only three months ago.


----------



## Darch

Thanks PurpleAngel. I'll go with a SBZ if I do go the sound card route (I'm also looking into the Sennheiser GSX unit). No motherboard in mind, as this will be for a future build (May, most likely).


----------



## BrightCandle

I have started to find issues with the Sennheiser GSX 1000 which likely make it bad for gaming. Its better than the SBZ except for when its not. In Arma 3 (a 5.1 game) there are small gaps in the sound directly to the right and left. Intially I thought this was an Arma 3 mod bug but I have found it is affecting the games base sounds as well. I am not playing many 5.1 games these days but Arma 3 doesn't seem to output 7.1 and the device isn't handling that properly. I am following up with support but its already into second line and beyond so I imagine this is going to be a long term problem and something they didn't anticipate.


----------



## audi03nthusiast

purpleangel said:


> Looks like the last driver update for the Titanium series is January 2016, so 14 months ago.
> While the Z series just had a driver update Jan 2017, so only three months ago.


 
http://danielkawakami.blogspot.fi/


----------



## tighttighttight

I have so many burning questions about the new 3D sound options in Windows 10 now that I've downloaded the new update, but seem to have no one who can answer them until next week when the Creators Update gets pushed to everybody.

1) What are the advantages of selecting "Dolby Atmos for Headphones" over "Windows Sonic for Headphones" in the audio control panel? Does Windows Sonic also process Atmos with a HRTF so I can avoid switching back and forth?

2) Do I configure my Creative X7 in the audio control panel for Stereo or the highest possible Surround output? With Atmos or Sonic enabled, is it irrelevant? Will Windows pull multi channel data from movies and games no matter what?

3) Would using Atmos for Headphones within the menu in Overwatch or Valve's HRTF option in CS:GO conflict or overlap with Microsoft's 3D implementations, or will it appear to be a Stereo signal and not add crossfade or other effects? I just want to set my audio and forget it, and even before these new options, right now I have to switch between Stereo/HRTF when I play Counter Strike and 5.1/SBX surround for everything else.

Hopefully I can just enable Stereo and Windows Sonic and call it a day.


----------



## rudyae86

tighttighttight said:


> I have so many burning questions about the new 3D sound options in Windows 10 now that I've downloaded the new update, but seem to have no one who can answer them until next week when the Creators Update gets pushed to everybody.
> 
> 1) What are the advantages of selecting "Dolby Atmos for Headphones" over "Windows Sonic for Headphones" in the audio control panel? Does Windows Sonic also process Atmos with a HRTF so I can avoid switching back and forth?
> 
> ...


 
 General rule is to not overlap HRTFs or additional virtual processing. For example, Overwatch already has Dolby Atmos for headphones built into it, so all you really need to to do is have all your other sources (like your X7) set to stereo and you should be able to hear Dolby Atmos as it is.
  
 I don't know about Windows Sonic for Headphones, didn't know that was going to be part of it as well but I would still not use 2 HRTFs at the same time. Try one or the other and see how they both work in terms of audio positioning and quality.
  
 Also, when is this new update going to be released? I want to try it already lol.


----------



## tighttighttight

rudyae86 said:


> General rule is to not overlap HRTFs or additional virtual processing. For example, Overwatch already has Dolby Atmos for headphones built into it, so all you really need to to do is have all your other sources (like your X7) set to stereo and you should be able to hear Dolby Atmos as it is.
> 
> I don't know about Windows Sonic for Headphones, didn't know that was going to be part of it as well but I would still not use 2 HRTFs at the same time. Try one or the other and see how they both work in terms of audio positioning and quality.
> 
> Also, when is this new update going to be released? I want to try it already lol.




It starts rolling out to all Windows 10 users next week, but you can get it early by forcing an update with the Windows 10 Upgrade Assistant.


----------



## tighttighttight

rudyae86 said:


> General rule is to not overlap HRTFs or additional virtual processing. For example, Overwatch already has Dolby Atmos for headphones built into it, so all you really need to to do is have all your other sources (like your X7) set to stereo and you should be able to hear Dolby Atmos as it is.
> 
> I don't know about Windows Sonic for Headphones, didn't know that was going to be part of it as well but I would still not use 2 HRTFs at the same time. Try one or the other and see how they both work in terms of audio positioning and quality.
> 
> Also, when is this new update going to be released? I want to try it already lol.




I can't yet post offsite links, but if you do a google search for Windows 10 Upgrade Assistant you can force your system to update before it starts getting rolled out to everyone next week.


----------



## rudyae86

tighttighttight said:


> I can't yet post offsite links, but if you do a google search for Windows 10 Upgrade Assistant you can force your system to update before it starts getting rolled out to everyone next week.


 
 Yup just looked it up and i am downloading now thanks lol
  
 Will get back to you after testing it out
  
 Edit: So I downloaded the update and its there! But Dolby Atmos for headphones isn't available just yet and says coming soon. Only Sonic is available to be used. However Dolby Atmos for Home Cinema is available but I don't have an AVR.
  
 This is very interesting though....


----------



## BlueNinja0

rudyae86 said:


> Yup just looked it up and i am downloading now thanks lol
> 
> Will get back to you after testing it out
> 
> ...


 
  
 Wasn't Dolby Atmos going to be available to buy on the Microsoft Store?
  
 Also, what's the point of Dolby Atmos for an AVR if Windows can theoretically decode Dolby Atmos in the appropriate channel number and send it to the AVR in uncompressed LPCM to through HDMI?


----------



## youareme7

blueninja0 said:


> Wasn't Dolby Atmos going to be available to buy on the Microsoft Store?


 
 When you try to enable atmos for headphones in the spatial surround tab it actually makes you download an app called Dolby Access, on that app it just says headphone coming soon so not sure if it'll be pay later but I don't think so based on what I've read at The Next Web
 https://thenextweb.com/opinion/2017/01/05/dolby-atmos-windows-10-going-finally-bring-surround-sound-masses/


----------



## youareme7

I updated my windows today to the creators update and have the spatial sound tab but there are no choices for my dragonfly dac, even though windows sonic for headphone does show up for my motherboard audio and the audio for my monitor.


----------



## BlueNinja0

youareme7 said:


> there are no choices for my dragonfly dac


 
  
 Those are some really bad news... I hope this is not the case for other DACs.


----------



## rudyae86

So I am still trying to figure out how to use Windows Sonic for headphones....I keep ticking on it and it switches to stereo and at the bottom it says 7.1 virtual surround sound. Then I go into battlefield 1 and the audio is just as is without adding HRTF, settings Surround and Large speakers.
  
 So I dont know what am I doing wrong. I am using an asus xonar DG and have a Schiit Modi 2 Uber connected to it via optical and my Cayin C5 amp connected to the DAC...I turned off Dolby headphone.....and still nothing.


----------



## bigbeard

I also don't understand how windows sonic works. I am assuming windows defaults to stereo, and then reproduces virtual 7.1? Does that mean in game we should use surround, or stereo?
  
 Another note, since I use HD800 when I'm gaming, should I set windows to full range speakers on 5.1?


----------



## BlueNinja0

bigbeard said:


> Another note, since I use HD800 when I'm gaming, should I set windows to full range speakers on 5.1?


 
  
 Headphones are full range speakers, so yeah. But I think that setting doesn't matter in Windows unless you have a surround speaker system connected with your system with subwoofer. When no subwoofer is present, I think it makes no difference.


----------



## rudyae86

blueninja0 said:


> Headphones are full range speakers, so yeah. But I think that setting doesn't matter in Windows unless you have a surround speaker system connected with your system with subwoofer. When no subwoofer is present, I think it makes no difference.


 

 Well most HRTFs simulate a subwoofer, so it technically does make a difference but usually everyone recommends setting them to full range speakers.


----------



## BlueNinja0

rudyae86 said:


> Well most HRTFs simulate a subwoofer, so it technically does make a difference but usually everyone recommends setting them to full range speakers.


 

  
 Agree. In the end, it should be the HRTF algorithm to decide what to do with the low frequencies, and not Windows.


----------



## mindbomb

Windows sonic headphones is pretty finicky. It essentially requires you to explicitly set software to output surround sound pcm for it to work. The issue is that not a lot of software has this type of controls. I can do it in mpc hc, by setting the mixer to 7.1. But for example, the game overwatch, or the google chrome browser, doesn't have these options as far as I can tell.
  
 But I guess this isn't microsoft's fault. It's those applications fault for giving too little control over audio format.
  
 Atm, I am using it various video and audio. Things sound a little disjointed, but I think that is a good sign. Over time, I think I'll be able to integrate the sounds better, and it will provide a good sense of depth. I think any good virtual surround is going to inevitably have a learning curve like this.


----------



## youareme7

The dolby access app that is needed to install dolby atmos for headphones was just updated and now you can install dolby atmos for headphones to use it. It's a 30 day trial and cost $14.99 if you want to buy it. Dolby has demo videos on the access app and they sound amazing but that should not be surprising, haven't really put it through any other tests though. I like the idea of spatial audio just built in (I use Razer surround right now) but it has almost no settings which I don't like.
  
 Still can't get any spatial audio to work with my Dragonfly DAC, the only option is "none" in the tab. Has anyone else tried this with a DAC/amp setup?


----------



## mindbomb

The dac has to support 16 bit and 48khz for you to have spatial audio options.


----------



## youareme7

mindbomb said:


> The dac has to support 16 bit and 48khz for you to have spatial audio options.


 
 A bit of a shame it's limited I suppose but that at least gives me an answer thanks!


----------



## BlueNinja0

mindbomb said:


> Windows sonic headphones is pretty finicky. It essentially requires you to explicitly set software to output surround sound pcm for it to work. The issue is that not a lot of software has this type of controls. I can do it in mpc hc, by setting the mixer to 7.1. But for example, the game overwatch, or the google chrome browser, doesn't have these options as far as I can tell.


 
  
 I don't get it. Since many apps and games use the Windows settings as a reference to know how many channels to output, shouldn't enabling Windows Sonic ask for a 7.1 output from those games?
  


youareme7 said:


> Still can't get any spatial audio to work with my Dragonfly DAC, the only option is "none" in the tab. Has anyone else tried this with a DAC/amp setup?


 
  
 I'm using an ODAC and the options show up:
  

  
 I have yet to try it though. I'm using 24-bit, 48000Khz output though, if that helps.


----------



## youareme7

blueninja0 said:


> I'm using an ODAC and the options show up:
> 
> 
> 
> I have yet to try it though. I'm using 24-bit, 48000Khz output though, if that helps.


 
 The ODAC must support 16/48, if you switch to one of those spatial sound formats and click apply it'll change to that. The Dragonfly DAC simply does not support 16-bit in that default format pulldown in the advanced tab, only 24-bit


----------



## mindbomb

blueninja0 said:


> I don't get it. Since many apps and games use the Windows settings as a reference to know how many channels to output, shouldn't enabling Windows Sonic ask for a 7.1 output from those games?


 
  
 Enabling windows sonic sets the default format to 2 channel. So if a program is querying the default format to decide what to output, it will output 2 channel, and thus disable windows sonic. This is unfortunately the main issue I am finding with windows sonic.


----------



## Rompe

Hopefully they will develop the Dolby Access app further and add some settings, or make a separate app for enthusiasts.
  
 Does anyone know is it possible to route the software based virtual surround sound through S/PDIF toslink to DAC+AMP? It's 2 channel audio after all. I would like to bypass my mobos onboard Realtek ALC1150 dac/amp. I just got new AKG K702 headphones and the ALC1150 can just barely drive them. I've read that dedicated DAC+AMP would improve things considerably, but I would also like to have some virtual surround for certain games as well. I wouldn't want to get dedicated sound card since I have read that they would not improve the sound quality compared to ALC1150 as much as DAC+AMP combo would.
  
 I also have Sound Blaster Cinema 2 software that can do SBX surround, which is considered the best virtual surround by many so Dolby Atmos may not be necessary. The software came with the mobo (MSI Z97M Gaming). I wonder if it's anywhere as good as the hardware based SBX on the Creative cards? I also wonder if these software based virtual surround solutions cause some input latency? I read that at least with Out Of Your Head by Darin Fong causes moderate latency which is why it may not be very suitable competitive fps gaming.


----------



## rudyae86

Great, my internet is down at my place and I wont be able to download any fixes for the creators update...I really want to try dolby atmos...might have to use my phone and tether it to my PC....


----------



## BlueNinja0

youareme7 said:


> The ODAC must support 16/48, if you switch to one of those spatial sound formats and click apply it'll change to that. The Dragonfly DAC simply does not support 16-bit in that default format pulldown in the advanced tab, only 24-bit


 
  
 Oh, that's a shame. Maybe they'll update it later to support 24-bit.
  


mindbomb said:


> Enabling windows sonic sets the default format to 2 channel. So if a program is querying the default format to decide what to output, it will output 2 channel, and thus disable windows sonic. This is unfortunately the main issue I am finding with windows sonic.


 
  
 Nothing indicates Windows doesn't report 7.1 channels to the applications when Sonic is turned on, even if it shows as 2 channels on the output. Is there any application or game where we can test this out?


----------



## rudyae86

So I updated Dolby Access and then enabled Dolby Atmos for Headphones....and nothing. Doesn't seem to be working for me. Tried it in BF1 and doesn't sound like its working. To confirm, I used an MKV file I have that test 7.1 surround sound and the rear 4 channels (2 on right and 2 on left) sound the same and the LFE I can't hear at all, so that usually means it is not doing using an HRTF.
  
 And sometimes it will revert back to 2.0 Stereo for no reason, same with Windows Sonic for Headphones. Ugh....


----------



## BlueNinja0

rudyae86 said:


> So I updated Dolby Access and then enabled Dolby Atmos for Headphones....and nothing. Doesn't seem to be working for me. Tried it in BF1 and doesn't sound like its working. To confirm, I used an MKV file I have that test 7.1 surround sound and the rear 4 channels (2 on right and 2 on left) sound the same and the LFE I can't hear at all, so that usually means it is not doing using an HRTF.
> 
> And sometimes it will revert back to 2.0 Stereo for no reason, same with Windows Sonic for Headphones. Ugh....


 
  
 Does BF1 allow you to specifically set up sound to output surround channels?
  
 I tried Windows Sonic with BF4 and there is a difference. I can't distinguish from front/back very clearly but there is definitely some HRTF going on because there is crossfeed happening (which the game by itself doesn't use at all even when you select Headphones and makes me sound deaf from one ear defending if the sound comes from the left or right).


----------



## rudyae86

blueninja0 said:


> Does BF1 allow you to specifically set up sound to output surround channels?
> 
> I tried Windows Sonic with BF4 and there is a difference. I can't distinguish from front/back very clearly but there is definitely some HRTF going on because there is crossfeed happening (which the game by itself doesn't use at all even when you select Headphones and makes me sound deaf from one ear defending if the sound comes from the left or right).




BF1 does give you the option to output surround channels. But I have tried it and its missing the LFE signal and the position of the other speakers don't sound right.

I k ow I have my Asus Xonar DG set up right in the control panel and in windows settings, so something isnt right.

You probably have it set up wrong though....especially if Windows is only detecting 2 channel stereo in your settings when it's supposed to do 7.1.

I'm starting to think This Dolby Atmos for headphones in Windows is probably not what we expected and just adds some sort of reverb or tries to expand the sound stage of a stereo signal.


----------



## Fegefeuer

it doesn't work for games at all. Right now it just sits on top and passes 2.0 through while grabbing multichannel input streams and doing 7.1 VST for them.
  
 check these tracks out with DAfHP enabled:
  
 http://s1.demo-world.eu/hd_trailers.php?file=dolby_truehd_channel_check_lossless-DWEU.mkv
  
 http://s1.demo-world.eu/hd_trailers.php?file=dolby_amaze_lossless-DWEU.m2ts


----------



## BlueNinja0

rudyae86 said:


> You probably have it set up wrong though....especially if Windows is only detecting 2 channel stereo in your settings when it's supposed to do 7.1.


 
  
 What do you mean? The output will always be configured to be 2 channels. I'm using an ODAC, that only has 2 channels.
  
 What can I have set up wrong? Windows Sonic with 7.1 virtual surround is enabled and BF4 is set up to output surround sound. There's barely anything I can set up at all.


----------



## rudyae86

blueninja0 said:


> What do you mean? The output will always be configured to be 2 channels. I'm using an ODAC, that only has 2 channels.
> 
> What can I have set up wrong? Windows Sonic with 7.1 virtual surround is enabled and BF4 is set up to output surround sound. There's barely anything I can set up at all.




Compared to how I have my Xonar DG set up, in Windows playback devices, it's configured with 7.1 and not 2.0. Then in Bf1 I set up Surround and Large Speakers and that is how I get my Virtual surround sound with Dolby Headphone.

So I guess maybe the set up for Sonic and Dolby Atmos is different?


----------



## BlueNinja0

rudyae86 said:


> Compared to how I have my Xonar DG set up, in Windows playback devices, it's configured with 7.1 and not 2.0. Then in Bf1 I set up Surround and Large Speakers and that is how I get my Virtual surround sound with Dolby Headphone.
> 
> So I guess maybe the set up for Sonic and Dolby Atmos is different?


 
  
 Seeing as how all virtual surround implementations on Windows are kind of a hack and MS did not expect for a 7.1 surround sound to be inputted and then outputted as 2.0, and since now it is officially supported at the OS level, I believe it might be intentional for the output to be set to 2.0 for headphones, even if it's 7.1 surround processed through HRTF.
 The big question is if Windows reports 7.1 or 2.0 to the games when Windows Sonic or Dolby Atmos is enabled. Anyone here knows how to query Windows on that? Or any MS documentation?


----------



## rudyae86

blueninja0 said:


> Seeing as how all virtual surround implementations on Windows are kind of a hack and MS did not expect for a 7.1 surround sound to be inputted and then outputted as 2.0, and since now it is officially supported at the OS level, I believe it might be intentional for the output to be set to 2.0 for headphones, even if it's 7.1 surround processed through HRTF.
> The big question is if Windows reports 7.1 or 2.0 to the games when Windows Sonic or Dolby Atmos is enabled. Anyone here knows how to query Windows on that? Or any MS documentation?


 
 You explained it better than I did lol but yeah that is what I am wondering as well.
  
 Because even though I have enabled DA or Sonic and in BF1 I have it set up with Surround/Large Speakers, I am missing sound cues and noticed it immediately.
  
 I even tested using an MKV file that shows you what speaker is being played and even used Dolby Atmos sampler files from their website and it isn't working on all speakers.
  
 Here, these are the files
  
 https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/test-tones.html
  
 And so far as to my experience is that the games are seeing 2.0 when both HRTFs are enabled.


----------



## mindbomb

blueninja0 said:


> Seeing as how all virtual surround implementations on Windows are kind of a hack and MS did not expect for a 7.1 surround sound to be inputted and then outputted as 2.0, and since now it is officially supported at the OS level, I believe it might be intentional for the output to be set to 2.0 for headphones, even if it's 7.1 surround processed through HRTF.
> The big question is if Windows reports 7.1 or 2.0 to the games when Windows Sonic or Dolby Atmos is enabled. Anyone here knows how to query Windows on that? Or any MS documentation?


 
 media player classic home cinema's internal audio renderer checks the default format and is very transparent about how it changes the audio to match it. It downmixes to 2.0 with windows sonic.
  
 This is really the issue. The default format is all about what the dac supports. The application doesn't need to match the default format - that's the whole point of the windows mixer. Yet so many things autoconfigure themselves to do that. And then they can't be used with windows sonic.
  
 The valve games (tf2, csgo) give you explicit control over output format. So you should be able to set them to 7.1 and then use it with windows sonic headphones. This isn't a microsoft problem imo, this is an application issue. More programs should give you control like this.


----------



## BlueNinja0

rudyae86 said:


> You explained it better than I did lol but yeah that is what I am wondering as well.
> 
> Because even though I have enabled DA or Sonic and in BF1 I have it set up with Surround/Large Speakers, I am missing sound cues and noticed it immediately.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Indeed I can't get any positioning from those files and Sonic is turned on. But the funny thing is: With all kinds of HRTF turned off, shouldn't the front and back speakers sound exactly the same when downmixed? Why do I always hear them different?
 I did this little test on Foobar some months ago in which I was listening to music normally (a standard 2.0 channels file) on my headphones and then I used the "Move stereo to rear channels" DSP to send the music to the rear channels and the music sounded different... why?
  
  


mindbomb said:


> media player classic home cinema's internal audio renderer checks the default format and is very transparent about how it changes the audio to match it. It downmixes to 2.0 with windows sonic.
> 
> This is really the issue. The default format is all about what the dac supports. The application doesn't need to match the default format - that's the whole point of the windows mixer. Yet so many things autoconfigure themselves to do that. And then they can't be used with windows sonic.
> 
> The valve games (tf2, csgo) give you explicit control over output format. So you should be able to set them to 7.1 and then use it with windows sonic headphones.


 
  
 This is a real problem MS must solve. They were the ones that encouraged developers to use the number of channels reported by Windows and now develop a feature incompatible with it?
 By the way, where do you check that on MPC?


----------



## mindbomb

blueninja0 said:


> By the way, where do you check that on MPC?


 
 When you use the internal audio renderer (options>output>audio renderer), then it will match the default format. Then you can right click in the window, go to filters> internal audio and see what processing is being done.
  
  
 By default, it will just output all the channels that exist in the file. You can also set the mixer to 7.1 (internal filters>audio decoder>mixing) and always output 7.1 with the default renderer.


----------



## BlueNinja0

mindbomb said:


> When you use the internal audio renderer (options>output>audio renderer), then it will match the default format. Then you can right click in the window, go to filters> internal audio and see what processing is being done.
> 
> 
> By default, it will just output all the channels that exist in the file. You can also set the mixer to 7.1 (internal filters>audio decoder>mixing) and always output 7.1 with the default renderer.


 
  
 So, by forcing it to output 7.1, can you check if Windows Sonic is working?


----------



## rudyae86

Ugh, this is getting confusing lol.


----------



## youareme7

mindbomb said:


> When you use the internal audio renderer (options>output>audio renderer), then it will match the default format. Then you can right click in the window, go to filters> internal audio and see what processing is being done.
> 
> 
> By default, it will just output all the channels that exist in the file. You can also set the mixer to 7.1 (internal filters>audio decoder>mixing) and always output 7.1 with the default renderer.


 
 I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this but if you set up MPC to use an internal renderer wouldn't that completely eliminate the dolby headphone virtualization step in the process? Like:
  
 (8ch decoded out) > Dolby headphone process > headphones
 vs.
 (8ch decoded out) > Internal renderer (downmix) > headphones


----------



## mindbomb

blueninja0 said:


> So, by forcing it to output 7.1, can you check if Windows Sonic is working?


 
  
 setting the mixer to 7.1 and leaving the audio renderer on default directsound device will have windows sonic always on for anything you play.


----------



## BlueNinja0

youareme7 said:


> I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this but if you set up MPC to use an internal renderer wouldn't that completely eliminate the dolby headphone virtualization step in the process? Like:
> 
> (8ch decoded out) > Dolby headphone process > headphones
> vs.
> (8ch decoded out) > Internal renderer (downmix) > headphones


 
  
 Why should the internal renderer downmix if everything were working correctly? If Windows Sonic worked correctly, Windows would report to MPC that it wants 7.1 sound (even if in reality it's just outputting 2.0), and then the Windows Sonic mixer would downmix to 2.0 with the HRTF effects.
  


mindbomb said:


> setting the mixer to 7.1 and leaving the audio renderer on default directsound device will have windows sonic always on for anything you play.


 
  
 Yes, I understand it's not a desirable option. It was just to test if Windows Sonic is indeed applying any HRTF effect when MPC is set to output 7.1


----------



## Brushy

I've been fiddling with Dolby Atmos Headphone (in Win 10)all night and nothing sounds good on it. I'm using AKG K712, Sennheiser Game One, and some Pioneer AE1000 for testing. My SB E5 with Virtual 7.1 sounds much better. Everything is cleaner. On the other hand, if I set everything to pure Stereo and run the game OVerwatch and change the in-game audio to Dolby Atmos, that game itself sounds better than running it in surround on my SB E5. So I'm starting to think it's a Windows issue. But then if I run the little Atmos Headphone Demo vids, (in win Dolby Access), They even sound better with my Soundb blaster E5's surround on instead of Win's Dolby Atmos. I'm about to check the Dolby tes tones rudy linked earlier. This is definitely a let down so far.


 Edit: Just tested the Tone Tests and am also missing the Sub sounds. If you run Dolby Access from Win 10, you can click the little "Info" button on the bottom right side. That will pop up a menu where you can select to leave Feedback. I have left a pretty verbose message about this, already. I suggest you people leave a little feedback yourselves.


----------



## rudyae86

brushy said:


> I've been fiddling with Dolby Atmos Headphone (in Win 10)all night and nothing sounds good on it. I'm using AKG K712, Sennheiser Game One, and some Pioneer AE1000 for testing. My SB E5 with Virtual 7.1 sounds much better. Everything is cleaner. On the other hand, if I set everything to pure Stereo and run the game OVerwatch and change the in-game audio to Dolby Atmos, that game itself sounds better than running it in surround on my SB E5. So I'm starting to think it's a Windows issue. But then if I run the little Atmos Headphone Demo vids, (in win Dolby Access), They even sound better with my Soundb blaster E5's surround on instead of Win's Dolby Atmos. I'm about to check the Dolby tes tones rudy linked earlier. This is definitely a let down so far.
> 
> 
> Edit: Just tested the Tone Tests and am also missing the Sub sounds. If you run Dolby Access from Win 10, you can click the little "Info" button on the bottom right side. That will pop up a menu where you can select to leave Feedback. I have left a pretty verbose message about this, already. I suggest you people leave a little feedback yourselves.


 
 Yeah no doubt that this update let me down as well. I was really looking forward to it but everything sounds better with my set up using Dolby Headphone. Sigh....Going to leave feedback as well.
  
 Hopefully Microsoft and Dolby do something about it.


----------



## BlueNinja0

brushy said:


> I've been fiddling with Dolby Atmos Headphone (in Win 10)all night and nothing sounds good on it. I'm using AKG K712, Sennheiser Game One, and some Pioneer AE1000 for testing. My SB E5 with Virtual 7.1 sounds much better. Everything is cleaner. On the other hand, if I set everything to pure Stereo and run the game OVerwatch and change the in-game audio to Dolby Atmos, that game itself sounds better than running it in surround on my SB E5. So I'm starting to think it's a Windows issue. But then if I run the little Atmos Headphone Demo vids, (in win Dolby Access), They even sound better with my Soundb blaster E5's surround on instead of Win's Dolby Atmos. I'm about to check the Dolby tes tones rudy linked earlier. This is definitely a let down so far.
> 
> 
> Edit: Just tested the Tone Tests and am also missing the Sub sounds. If you run Dolby Access from Win 10, you can click the little "Info" button on the bottom right side. That will pop up a menu where you can select to leave Feedback. I have left a pretty verbose message about this, already. I suggest you people leave a little feedback yourselves.


 
  
  


rudyae86 said:


> Yeah no doubt that this update let me down as well. I was really looking forward to it but everything sounds better with my set up using Dolby Headphone. Sigh....Going to leave feedback as well.
> 
> Hopefully Microsoft and Dolby do something about it.


 
  
 But does it just sound worse to you guys, like a low quality HRTF or do you don't even get any positional audio from it (as if it were just standard 2.0). What I mean is: Is it working at all or it makes absolutely no difference?


----------



## rudyae86

blueninja0 said:


> But does it just sound worse to you guys, like a low quality HRTF or do you don't even get any positional audio from it (as if it were just standard 2.0). What I mean is: Is it working at all or it makes absolutely no difference?


 
 It is more about the positional audio. It does not implement the HRTF properly. Everytime it is enabled it goes into 2.0 Stereo which doesn't make sense since in order for games to output 7.1 content is for windows to be set to 7.1 under the playback device.
  
 But even if that was the case, when enabling Dolby Atmos for Headphones, there is a tickbox that says enable 7.1 virtual surround sound.....but seems pointless because it doesn't work even like that. At least I can't get it to work.


----------



## BlueNinja0

Microsoft really needs to release some documentation on this... It's a mess right now.
  
 And Windows not reporting 7.1 output to applications when virtual surround is turned on is absolutely dumb. It's like they try to undermine their own features...


----------



## rudyae86

blueninja0 said:


> Microsoft really needs to release some documentation on this... It's a mess right now.
> 
> And Windows not reporting 7.1 output to applications when virtual surround is turned on is absolutely dumb. It's like they try to undermine their own features...


 
 Yeah, I would think it would at least work that way but it doesn't. But what can we expect? Windows updates always mess up something in the beginning until there is a hot fix or a new big update...


----------



## BrightCandle

The entire point of Dolby Atmos was meant to be that its object location and mono sound based, very much like DirectX can be as well. So does it just require explicit game support or is something else going wrong here? It is hard to work out whether its a bad HRTF, bad implementation within Windows especially for games or just needing explicit software support.
  
 I want the whole 5.1/7.1 -> 2.0 headphone mode to just die. Its been a good workaround for a decade in the dark ages of sound but we need a full sphere of sound with no individual speakers represented and that is what Dolby Atmos is meant to be about.


----------



## BlueNinja0

brightcandle said:


> I want the whole 5.1/7.1 -> 2.0 headphone mode to just die. Its been a good workaround for a decade in the dark ages of sound but we need a full sphere of sound with no individual speakers represented and that is what Dolby Atmos is meant to be about.


 
  
 I think that's it's main purpose. Of course it would still be compatible with legacy 7.1 programs. Problem is no one here on the forum seems to be able to get it working as it should.


----------



## rudyae86

brightcandle said:


> The entire point of Dolby Atmos was meant to be that its object location and mono sound based, very much like DirectX can be as well. So does it just require explicit game support or is something else going wrong here? It is hard to work out whether its a bad HRTF, bad implementation within Windows especially for games or just needing explicit software support.
> 
> I want the whole 5.1/7.1 -> 2.0 headphone mode to just die. Its been a good workaround for a decade in the dark ages of sound but we need a full sphere of sound with no individual speakers represented and that is what Dolby Atmos is meant to be about.


 

Technically, Dolby Atmos for Headphones should be giving a similar "set up" to Home Cinema 5.1.2, 5.1.4, 7.1.2, 7.1.4 or 9.1.6 ( at least to my understanding) while still being able to use regular 5.1 or 7.1 audio.
  
 Actually, in the description for Dolby Atmos for Headphones, it says listen to your stereo, 5.1 or 7.1 channel games and movies....so does this mean that it is just another HRTF similar to DH or SBX? If so, What M$?
  
 Windows 10 also comes with Windows Sonic for headphones which should be similar to 3D audio but seems like it is also not functioning right or no  one really know how it's implemented.
  
 There are still many unanswered questions....and almost no answers to be found.
  
 Edit: Yeah, Dolby Atmos is more to object location and mono sound based but the whole 5.1 or 7.1 to 2.0 headphone isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Unless the transition to Dolby Atmos or just in general 3D audio is implemented well, I don't see many people willing to opt out of even the usual 2.0 Stereo settings. Many don't really care and just want to hear bass! lol it's true.
  
 As for me, I am ready to leave the 5.1 and 7.1 to 2.0. I still prefer it over regular stereo for movies and games, I really can't listen to 2.0 for those things anymore. Also, what they really need to do is move away from that DVD quality Audio and move into the 24 bit and 96khz or higher with those different HRTFs as well as content creators to really use higher bit rate audio for games.
  
 EDIT 2: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/apps/access.html
  
 So on their site the description says one thing but then in the video says differently, which is what I am expecting from DA......
  
 but what I really want to know is the XBOX ONE users...they should have gotten an update as well right?


----------



## Brushy

blueninja0 said:


> But does it just sound worse to you guys, like a low quality HRTF or do you don't even get any positional audio from it (as if it were just standard 2.0). What I mean is: Is it working at all or it makes absolutely no difference?


 
 Both. As others have said, the positional audio is broken and also the quality will drop to 16 bit 44100Hz CD Quality. So it's pretty terrible all the way around right now.


----------



## x7007

So anyone can say good things about the ATMOS in windows 10 1703 version ?
  
 If I enable it it uses it for everything right ?
  
 ATMOS will win Asus Strix DLX Raid and sennheiser-gsx-1000 ?  The best surround I think is the Asus Strix DLX Raid,  it seems that it doesn't lower the quality at all and you can still use 96Khz + 24 Bit with 7.1 Virtual surround and I think it keeps it Full Range.
  
 Asus Strix DLX Raid 96Khz 24 Bit 7.1 Virtual Surround Full-Range
 Atmos lowers to 48Khz 16 Bit 7.1 My guess is Full-Range obviously 
 Sonic lowers to 48Khz 16 Bit 7.1 My guess is Full-Range too
 Creative ZXR lowers to Limited Range and only 5.1 
 GSX 48Khz 16 Bit 7.1 Bicular Surround Full-Range ?
  
 We really need 24 Bit support.  DTS-HD MA movies are 7.1 + 48Khz + 24 Bit !  what is the problem to use 24 Bit ?
  
 Music sound really good with Atmos 7.1 ...
 I'm hearing with DT990 Premium 600 Ohms with Atmos , Potplayer set to 7.1  and FLAC Ace of Base - Life is a Flower  ,  the music has so much life xD
  
 The question is with which one I will play games with !?
  
 I really want to know if ATMOS if better than GSX so I won't even think on buying it.. I will invest the money on the atmos when my 30 days trial will finish. and maybe later will buy AMP+DAC and have the best you can have.
  
  
 Till now I had ...
  
 Creative Card the cheap really old ones Sound Blaster and such they were good .
 then Sound Blaster new version
 then X-FI Xtreme Music
 Asus Xonar Phoebus
 Creative ZXR
 Asus Strix DLX Raid
  
 now we have extra pick  ATMOS and SONIC and GSX .   and soon new headphones which have real 7.1 . and non stop of Studio premium quality Headphones + the adds of DAC and AMPS.
  
 How can we choose the right one !??


----------



## rudyae86

x7007 said:


> So anyone can say good things about the ATMOS in windows 10 1703 version ?
> 
> If I enable it it uses it for everything right ?
> 
> ...




Hmmm I think you have a lot of misinformation on your post.....

As for Dolby Atnos for headphones and Windows Sonic for Headphones...they are not working properly right now so we really can't give an answer to how good they sound.


----------



## JohnnyReef

What is not working? It sounds very much like Dolby Headphone here. Ive gone back and forth between several games and there is a difference but i cant pin point what it is. Both give very clear positional audio. Enabling it sets 2 audio channel on my sound card and i manually disable dolby headphone.
  
 Whats more interesting to me is what is the difference here between Atmos and Dolby Headphone and CMSS3D and so on.


----------



## x7007

johnnyreef said:


> What is not working? It sounds very much like Dolby Headphone here. Ive gone back and forth between several games and there is a difference but i cant pin point what it is. Both give very clear positional audio. Enabling it sets 2 audio channel on my sound card and i manually disable dolby headphone.
> 
> Whats more interesting to me is what is the difference here between Atmos and Dolby Headphone and CMSS3D and so on.


 
 ye I don't know what people saying, not working.  what did they do ? for me I sound differences with all Off, Sonic, Atmos  and my Asus 7.1 Virtual surround.
  
 for now Atmos should be the best my guess, I heard it in real 7.1 movie DTS-HD MA and it sound amazing, the sounds coming from all sides.
  


brushy said:


> Both. As others have said, the positional audio is broken and also the quality will drop to 16 bit 44100Hz CD Quality. So it's pretty terrible all the way around right now.


 
  
 Where does it say that ? and it drops to 48 Khz not 44 Khz, you could easily check it..


----------



## Brushy

x7007 said:


> ye I don't know what people saying, not working.  what did they do ? for me I sound differences with all Off, Sonic, Atmos  and my Asus 7.1 Virtual surround.
> 
> for now Atmos should be the best my guess, I heard it in real 7.1 movie DTS-HD MA and it sound amazing, the sounds coming from all sides.
> 
> ...


 
 Have you even tried testing this yourself? Or read any other posts from other people here? And yes it does drop to 44.1Khz on my PC when Atmos is enabled. It is very easy to check. 

 Atmos sounding amazing in theaters  or in a game like Overwatch is different. The Win 10 version is hopefully just broken right now as I would love to see it fixed.


 Edit: My mistake. You are right, it does drop to 48Khz 16bit. I tested about 12 times yesterday and could have sworn I was dropping to 44.1Khz. Which is weird. That's still trash though.


----------



## BlueNinja0

x7007 said:


> Music sound really good with Atmos 7.1 ...


 
  
 I think Atmos doesn't even activate for 2.0 sources... That might be a reason you say it sounds good though.
  


x7007 said:


> ye I don't know what people saying, not working.  what did they do ? for me I sound differences with all Off, Sonic, Atmos  and my Asus 7.1 Virtual surround.
> 
> for now Atmos should be the best my guess, I heard it in real 7.1 movie DTS-HD MA and it sound amazing, the sounds coming from all sides.


 
  
 What player did you use and was your Windows speaker settings set to 2.0?


----------



## Clovis559

I think it's broken, or not implemented by software yet (And the way we want it to work, it doesn't work that way).
  
 I can't link pics yet, but if you add i.imgur. com/lU7Itmu.png those together, one difference you can see between the AVR receiver and the Headphones setting in windows is:
 (i.imgur. com/v8JyYbM.png) Speaker output.
  
 Windows settings...
  
 AVR Atmos:
 Speaker Config: Atmos for Home Theater
 Advanced Default Format: Atmos for Home Theater
 Spatial sound: Atmos for Theater.
  
 Atmos for Headphones:
 Speaker Config: Headphones
 Advanced Default Output: 16bit 48hz.
 Spatial sound Atmos for Headphones.
  
 From what I found, neither effects anything. Atmos for Headphones doesn't enable anything actually Atmos. (Games/Movies/Testtones).
 Atmos for Home Theater: Movies and Games you could play in Atmos, regardless if this setting is on or off. Doesn't make a difference.
  
 Just broken or not implemented. (Actually, it lets you listen to the Dolby Access demos, for which you've been able to download for a long time without the app).


----------



## Clovis559

Kinda pointless but silly, the demos you get with each are different in the Dolby Access App:
  
 Headphones: The Fourth Phase - Alaska, Leaf, Shattered.
 Theater: Amaze, Red Bull Racing, The Fourth Phase - Alaska, Silent.
  
 If you have the Theater you can listen to them all. If you have headphones only, I dunno.


----------



## Brushy

I just got this response from Dolby Access customer Support.

 "*Thanks for your email about your experience with Dolby Atmos.*
* *
*You are experiencing a difference in Dolby Atmos sound due to playback device you are connected to.  The test tones and EA’s Battlefield are mixed specifically for Dolby Atmos enabled home theater systems and soundbars connected via HDMI from your PC. While Overwatch for PC was mixed specifically in Dolby Atmos for Headphones..*
* *
*We’ve passed your comments on to the development team to consider for future updates.*
* *
*If you have any additional questions or comments, or need further assistance, please feel free to contact us.*
* *
*Sincerely,*
* *
*Dolby Access Customer Support Team*"

 I did explain that I was getting bad sound in music as well as other programs. Difference between Overwatch and BF1, test tones and so on. I explained in detail to them what I was seeing. So I guess it just boils down to the content being specifically Mixed for Atmos Headphone.


----------



## BlueNinja0

I don't get it. You mean you were trying to listening to music with Dolby Atmos for Headphones on?


----------



## Brushy

If you're asking me. I went through every bit of sound I could just listening for differences. Testing everything I could. Comparing 7.1 SBX, 5.1 SBX, Stereo, Direct Mode, with Dolby Atmos Headphone and Sonic. One reason I used hi-fi music was because I've seen people post in this thread about how Music sounded amazing in Atmos Headphone. Which leads me to believe that maybe they are listening to low quality mp3's or something. Anyways, I always like to test everything no matter. It's best having a lot of info for feedback.


----------



## BlueNinja0

What I mean is. How did you get your music to go through Dolby Atmos Headphone and Windows Sonic? As far as I know, the HRTF does not activate for 2 channel sources. Did you force your music player to upmix and output the music at 7.1 channels?
  
 I just did a quick test again on Foobar and Windows Sonic does not activate for 2.0 channel sources.


----------



## Brushy

blueninja0 said:


> What I mean is. How did you get your music to go through Dolby Atmos Headphone and Windows Sonic? As far as I know, the HRTF does not activate for 2 channel sources. Did you force your music player to upmix and output the music at 7.1 channels?
> 
> I just did a quick test again on Foobar and Windows Sonic does not activate for 2.0 channel sources.


 
 I don't think it's activating either. I think it's just dropping the quality down to 48Khz 16bit stereo. Which is why my hi-fi recording sound like trash to me. Since the music is not mixed for Atmos Headphone it won't play in 7.1. That is what I got from the response given. If it's not mixed for Doilby Atmos Headphone, it won't work. Plain and simple. So until you get your hands on some of this new music supposedly being mixed in Atmos you won't hear music in Atmos Headphone 7.1 .

 Edit: and I can't upmix to 7.1 with my SB E5. As when I turn on 7.1 surround Windows automatically disables Atmos Headphone. When I am using Atmos I turn everything off in my E5's SBX settings and my channel will default to headphone (stereo). I can turn on Surround in SBX while leaving the channel set to Stereo Headphone and I do seem to get some upmixing from my E5, but that's all E5 and not Atmos.


----------



## BlueNinja0

brushy said:


> Since the music is not mixed for Atmos Headphone it won't play in 7.1. That is what I got from the response given. If it's not mixed for Doilby Atmos Headphone, it won't work. Plain and simple. So until you get your hands on some of this new music supposedly being mixed in Atmos you won't hear music in Atmos Headphone 7.1 .


 
  
 That doesn't sound right, it would go against all their promotion material which clearly states Dolby Atmos for Headphones works with any surround source.


----------



## Brushy

I don't know man. That's what I got out of the response they sent me.


----------



## Clovis559

As for it dropping your quality down to 16bit-48kHz, that's normal for Atmos.
 Games: http://i.imgur.com/WQX3gG1.jpg
 Movies: http://i.imgur.com/wCTUykv.jpg
 (These Pictures are from use with a Receiver). 
  
 This would make sense that any high end Audiphile or Audiophile equipment doesn't sound as good, when you enable Atmos for Headphones.
 I think they're marketing is unclear. I still think we're all jumping the gun as far as the window's sound setting implementation is for headphones.


----------



## Fegefeuer

Come on guys, since when is 48khz/16 Bit bad? Did you know that CDs come with 44,1Khz and 16Bit offering 96db of dynamic range which you'll never experience not even in half that range? Do you know that higher bits in recordings are necessary during mastering and are not an indicator that the 24bit to XX Bit file is naturally superior in the end product?
  
 Where did you get this mentality from that everything has to be 192Khz/24bit or beyond? I know that many people love to crank all these settings up in the windows settings and fooling themselves into believing that it'll make their music "shine". 
  
 The only reason 16 Bit is bad here is for losing bits when adjusting digital volume on the PC side. That's the only valid complaint.
 Other than that? Stop this nonsense and focus on the bad implementation of Atmos. Give feedback where you can and explain why the solution doesn't work for gamers.


----------



## Yethal

fegefeuer said:


> Come on guys, since when is 48khz/16 Bit bad? Did you know that CDs come with 44,1Khz and 16Bit offering 96db of dynamic range which you'll never experience not even in half that range? Do you know that higher bits in recordings are necessary during mastering and are not an indicator that the 24bit to XX Bit file is naturally superior in the end product?
> 
> Where did you get this mentality from that everything has to be 192Khz/24bit or beyond? I know that many people love to crank all these settings up in the windows settings and fooling themselves into believing that it'll make their music "shine".
> 
> ...



It's the same mentality that got us 4k smartphone screens.


----------



## Brushy

fegefeuer said:


> Come on guys, since when is 48khz/16 Bit bad? Did you know that CDs come with 44,1Khz and 16Bit offering 96db of dynamic range which you'll never experience not even in half that range? Do you know that higher bits in recordings are necessary during mastering and are not an indicator that the 24bit to XX Bit file is naturally superior in the end product?
> 
> Where did you get this mentality from that everything has to be 192Khz/24bit or beyond? I know that many people love to crank all these settings up in the windows settings and fooling themselves into believing that it'll make their music "shine".
> 
> ...


 
 And the Human eye can only see at 30 frames per second.......   

 If I can hear a difference then I can hear a difference. If you can't then I guess you just can't. Sugar pill? If it is I don't care to be honest. I just know what I like. That being said, why not take your own advice and add something productive here and cut out the nonsensical animosity towards people with different taste than your own. As I'm pretty sure we were talking about the implementation of Atmos Headphone in Windows 10. And how it really wasn't working for anything, gaming included. Unless of course, as I stated from the Dolby response I received, that the game or content was specifically mixed for Atmos Headphone.


----------



## Fegefeuer

brushy said:


> And the Human eye can only see at 30 frames per second.......
> 
> If I can hear a difference then I can hear a difference. If you can't then I guess you just can't. Sugar pill? If it is I don't care to be honest. I just know what I like. That being said, why not take your own advice and add something productive here and cut out the nonsensical animosity towards people with different taste than your own. As I'm pretty sure we were talking about the implementation of Atmos Headphone in Windows 10. And how it really wasn't working for anything, gaming included. Unless of course, as I stated from the Dolby response I received, that the game or content was specifically mixed for Atmos Headphone.


 
  
 I don't deny your magical hearing because it's a desperate defense mechanism.
  
 The problem of Dolby Access is not 48khz/16 Bit, it's the implementation both in practical use (as in not supporting "legacy" games with the option to make games always read a 7.1 setting) and in the way the spatializer works when actually fed with 5.1 and 7.1. To me it sounds like a low-effort solution that probably sacrifices accuracy/precision for cpu time. SBX for instance runs in hardware on the Axx1. Maybe they wanted to keep latency as low as possible and overshot. All in all it's a not what we expected for 15 bucks.


----------



## Clovis559

fegefeuer said:


> I don't deny your magical hearing because it's a desperate defense mechanism.
> 
> The problem of Dolby Access is not 48khz/16 Bit, it's the implementation both in practical use (as in not supporting "legacy" games with the option to make games always read a 7.1 setting) and in the way the spatializer works when actually fed with 5.1 and 7.1. To me it sounds like a low-effort solution that probably sacrifices accuracy/precision for cpu time. SBX for instance runs in hardware on the Axx1. Maybe they wanted to keep latency as low as possible and overshot. All in all it's a not what we expected for 15 bucks.


 
  
 Hopefully that's not the problem. The Dolby Access app wouldn't be the problem, it would be Dolby Atmos. Everything Atmos I've ever run is 16 - 48. I was watching the Dolby Atmos demo disk last night. Jack Reacher, all 16 - 48.
  


brushy said:


> And the Human eye can only see at 30 frames per second.......
> 
> If I can hear a difference then I can hear a difference. If you can't then I guess you just can't. Sugar pill? If it is I don't care to be honest. I just know what I like. That being said, why not take your own advice and add something productive here and cut out the nonsensical animosity towards people with different taste than your own. As I'm pretty sure we were talking about the implementation of Atmos Headphone in Windows 10. And how it really wasn't working for anything, gaming included. Unless of course, as I stated from the Dolby response I received, that the game or content was specifically mixed for Atmos Headphone.


 
  
 If you can hear the difference that's cool. I can't, but I'm not an audiophile. I just like what my ears like. I showed my girlfriend some Atmos Demos last night, she was instantly bored like... "You're showing me a leaf falling?" No can't you hear the immersive sound that is mind blowing? Her eyes... so confused. But I guess that's me and higher quality audio.


----------



## BlueNinja0

clovis559 said:


> Everything Atmos I've ever run is 16 - 48.


 
  
 Yes but they could use Atmos at 16bit 48Khz and leave the 2.0 stuff alone at the Windows setting we've choose. It's annoying to have to go back and forth and change the setting.


----------



## Clovis559

blueninja0 said:


> Yes but they could use Atmos at 16bit 48Khz and leave the 2.0 stuff alone at the Windows setting we've choose. It's annoying to have to go back and forth and change the setting.


 
  
 I thought of that after I posted. I can see that as a huge annoyance. Prior to CU, on a receiver, you set it to 192, when it goes Atmos it does what you're saying, drops to 48, goes back to 192, etc. After CU, you set it for Atmos, and in the Advanced/Formats, it's not set to a bit/khz. It's just set to "Atmos for Home Theater". Still the same results, 192 is 192, atmos is 48.
  

 Speaker Config (Same thing): http://i.imgur.com/v8JyYbM.png
  
 Why can't they do that for Headphones? (Or maybe they will, it's so early in it's development)


----------



## bigbeard

brushy said:


> If you're asking me. I went through every bit of sound I could just listening for differences. Testing everything I could. Comparing 7.1 SBX, 5.1 SBX, Stereo, Direct Mode, with Dolby Atmos Headphone and Sonic. One reason I used hi-fi music was because I've seen people post in this thread about how Music sounded amazing in Atmos Headphone. Which leads me to believe that maybe they are listening to low quality mp3's or something. Anyways, I always like to test everything no matter. It's best having a lot of info for feedback.


 

 ​How are you getting a 7.1 option in sbx?


----------



## Brushy

fegefeuer said:


> I don't deny your magical hearing because it's a desperate defense mechanism.
> 
> The problem of Dolby Access is not 48khz/16 Bit, it's the implementation both in practical use (as in not supporting "legacy" games with the option to make games always read a 7.1 setting) and in the way the spatializer works when actually fed with 5.1 and 7.1. To me it sounds like a low-effort solution that probably sacrifices accuracy/precision for cpu time. SBX for instance runs in hardware on the Axx1. Maybe they wanted to keep latency as low as possible and overshot. All in all it's a not what we expected for 15 bucks.


 
  
 Do people actually read the posts here or do they just pick out a part after skimming and then reply to that?

 It's amazing how someone turned my statements of Atmos Headphone having a broken or bad implementation in general into, I only think it's bad because it is in 16bit 48khz. And use that as an attempt at a personal attack. Take your contempt somewhere else buddy.... 

 But thank you for taking the time to follow your own advice and actually posting some feedback this time.

 Quote:


bigbeard said:


> ​How are you getting a 7.1 option in sbx?


 
 I go to my speaker headphone configuration in the Sound Blaster app and set speakers to Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound while having SBX turned on.


----------



## Brushy

clovis559 said:


> Why can't they do that for Headphones? (Or maybe they will, it's so early in it's development)


 

 This is actually my line of thinking. It's still early and Microsoft just rushed it. These are my hopes anyways.


----------



## Fegefeuer

I've been searching around the net to find a way to force a game to 5.1/7.1
  
 Only thing I found that might be slightly helpful is the following fix for Witcher 3 which involves modifying Xaudio2: https://www.reddit.com/r/witcher/comments/36h29c/surround_sound_51/crevdwh/
  
 I don't know if it affects the whole speaker setting/reading and not only while in DDL. 


> *XAudio2 seems to query PKEY_AudioEngine_DeviceFormat to determine the speaker configuration*. This is a WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE structure. XAudio2 does not check its "SubFormat" field for AC3/Dolby Digital. It always assumes some kind of PCM. And apart from the subformat GUID, a DDLive WAVEFORMATEX looks like stereo (2channel, 48kHz, 16bit - because an AC3 bitstream is compressed and fits into the bandwitdth of stereo PCM)!
> 
> A proper solution would to fix the XAudio2 speaker detection, e.g. query the MixFormat with IAudioClient::GetMixFormat, which is 6ch 48kHz 32bit float for DDLive.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Apparently this also fixes a few other games (for people that have this problem) and forcefully makes them output 5.1. I don't know the value for 7.1 though.


----------



## BlueNinja0

fegefeuer said:


> I've been searching around the net to find a way to force a game to 5.1/7.1
> 
> Only thing I found that might be slightly helpful is the following fix for Witcher 3 which involves modifying Xaudio2: https://www.reddit.com/r/witcher/comments/36h29c/surround_sound_51/crevdwh/
> 
> ...


 
  
 Will only work with Xaudio games, but it's a good start! Nice find. Many games use Xaudio.


----------



## fluidz

A gif to demonstrate enabling "Spatial sound" switches default audio to 48Khz and does not revert the change once "Spatial sound" is turned off.
  
_When I mention "Mojo lights Orange" I'm speaking about my Chord Mojo Dac (external portable soundcard), which lights orange when playback is at 48Khz._


----------



## weap0nkil

I am in need of your guys Headphone Expertise. I am a avid PC gamer, FPS shooters mainly. 
  
 Currently the Hardware I am using is this:
  
*( This is My motherboard so you know what sounds drivers and etc)*
 https://www.amazon.com/LGA2011-Optimization-SafeSlot-Motherboard-10/dp/B01FN9QY52   
  
  
*(Headphones)*
 https://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD-598-Headphones-Accents/dp/B0042A8CW2/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1346744483&sr=1-1&keywords=hd+598 
  
*(Microphone Headphone Amp)*
 https://www.amazon.com/Focusrite-Scarlett-Audio-Interface-Tools/dp/B01E6T56EA/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1493063254&sr=1-1-fkmr1&keywords=scarlett+2i2+pre-amp
  
*(Expander/Gate/Compressor)* https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002E4ZKU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
  
  
 I have two questions with this setup, and equipment taking in the fact of playing FPS shooters.
  
 The first question is should I just use my sounds drivers, and nothing else as far as software for in game audio for a good soundstage. (headphone Virtualization, Razor gaming Software etc)?
 My second question is with the headphones that I have is there anyone better out there that would be a significant upgrade for audio quality and soundstage for what I do.


----------



## rudyae86

weap0nkil said:


> I am in need of your guys Headphone Expertise. I am a avid PC gamer, FPS shooters mainly.
> 
> Currently the Hardware I am using is this:
> 
> ...


 
  
 My first question is: Do you know what virtual surround sound or emulated surround sound is and how it works?
  
 My second question is: What is your budget for a headphone?
  
 My 3rd question is: Will you be playing competitively or do you want a more immersive sound?
  
 Regarding your second question, It's really hard to say that there is a 'better' headphone. I mean there is, but that is becoming more and more subjective. To me, the X1/X2 and K7XX are a better headphone compared to many. The HD598 however is a great headphone for FPS games and is in no way a slouch when it comes to that. HD598 may not be very immersive but the airy sound and directional cues that are delivered are satisfying for someone who plays competitively.
  
 The HD598 won't necessarily improve with more expensive hardware in terms of sound cards or DACs/AMPs but usually it may alter the sound. Same thing when using Virtual surround sound since there are different ones available right now.
  
 But as some advice I will give you, please go to MLE's thread Mad Lusty Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide
  
 read the first page and hopefully you can grasp the concept of virtual surround sound and will let you form your own opinion about wether virtual surround sound will help you in your FPS games or not.
  
 As for my opinion, it helps me slightly but more importantly it gives me a sense of immersion in games.


----------



## Clovis559

weap0nkil said:


> I am in need of your guys Headphone Expertise. I am a avid PC gamer, FPS shooters mainly.
> 
> Currently the Hardware I am using is this:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Broad question. Everything @rudyae86 asked, and have you ever thought of speakers for gaming?  (or is that an option?)


----------



## weap0nkil

I prefer a headset for gaming. 

To answer the question from before on the headset. If I were to pick a new headset under like $800 what headset would you suggest that has the best soundstage for pc gaming?


----------



## Malfunkt

weap0nkil said:


> I prefer a headset for gaming.
> 
> To answer the question from before on the headset. If I were to pick a new headset under like $800 what headset would you suggest that has the best soundstage for pc gaming?



Sennheiser HD700, extremely comfortable, pretty easy to drive, excellent for FPS. It's open back, but that can be good especially if you get a mod-mic, as you'll hear your own voice when you speak (with closed headphones there is a tendency to shout when you can't hear your own voice). 

If you were spending a bit over $800 or scored a good used deal, HD800, but you may need a more dedicated amp. The HD700 is very very close to the HD800s soundstage.

I play a fair bit of FPS games, CS:Go, Day of Infamy, BF1, will be getting Rising Storm 2 when it comes out. Another headphone that I really really like is the Sennheiser HD250. It has a signature that is almost like an HD650, but with a more precise high-end. As a closed headphone it really creates a realistic soundstage. Overall I feel the HD700 is a better choice for gaming though. It is vivid, and will give you the edge in FPS.


----------



## pietcux (May 5, 2017)

Malfunkt said:


> Sennheiser HD700, extremely comfortable, pretty easy to drive, excellent for FPS. It's open back, but that can be good especially if you get a mod-mic, as you'll hear your own voice when you speak (with closed headphones there is a tendency to shout when you can't hear your own voice).
> 
> If you were spending a bit over $800 or scored a good used deal, HD800, but you may need a more dedicated amp. The HD700 is very very close to the HD800s soundstage.
> 
> I play a fair bit of FPS games, CS:Go, Day of Infamy, BF1, will be getting Rising Storm 2 when it comes out. Another headphone that I really really like is the Sennheiser HD250. It has a signature that is almost like an HD650, but with a more precise high-end. As a closed headphone it really creates a realistic soundstage. Overall I feel the HD700 is a better choice for gaming though. It is vivid, and will give you the edge in FPS.



I run a HD650 out of a Xonar Essence STX since 5 years for gaming. The big plus of the HD650 is their laid back signature. After hours of gunfire and explosions you still get no hearing fatigue. The HD700 and 800 pronounce the treble much more and I found that improper for gaming sound. On top of this the HD650 earpads and cable are cheap and easy to get globally. I run the STX in stereo mode right now, testing the Atmos functionality of W10. It sounds very good so far and the amp of the STX can properly drive even the HD800.


----------



## Malfunkt (May 5, 2017)

pietcux said:


> I run a HD650 out of a Xonar Essence STX since 5 years for gaming. The big plus of the HD650 is their laid back signature. After hours of gunfire and explosions you still get no hearing fatigue. The HD700 and 800 pronounce the treble much more and I found that improper for gaming sound. On top of this the HD650 earpads and cable are cheap and easy to get globally. I run the STX in stereo mode right now, testing the Atmos functionality of W10. It sounds very good so far and the amp of the STX can properly drive even the HD800.



 I really enjoyed the HD650 for gaming. Some people don't feel they have a wide enough soundstage, but I feel they created a very accurate portrayal. I have a set of HD250s which pretty much have a similar signature of the 650s.


----------



## ClintonL

Wondering what 5.1/7.1 software i should use for my USB dac (nfb-11) for surround for just gaming purposes.

Cheers


----------



## overhaze

Are there any windows audio plugins that just add crossfeed?


----------



## bigbeard

What do you guys think of using surround sound processing on a stereo speaker setup?

Will it be better just to keep speakers on stereo and not introduce processing for casual gaming (I use hd800 for when I really care)

Speakers are KEF LS50W with PSA 3000i sub connected.


----------



## Clovis559

bigbeard said:


> What do you guys think of using surround sound processing on a stereo speaker setup?
> 
> Will it be better just to keep speakers on stereo and not introduce processing for casual gaming (I use hd800 for when I really care)
> 
> Speakers are KEF LS50W with PSA 3000i sub connected.



Don't position your speakers in front left and right of you. Try directly to the left and right of you. Let us know how it sounds.
Most would say no. But what do you have to loose?


----------



## bigbeard

that's not practical for my desk. I need workspace.


----------



## Clovis559

That is a simple answer then. Definitely no.


----------



## bigbeard

thanks. I assumed surround sound processing may take into account that speakers are in front of you, as opposed to the sides of your hears, like headphones.


----------



## pietcux

bigbeard said:


> thanks. I assumed surround sound processing may take into account that speakers are in front of you, as opposed to the sides of your hears, like headphones.


I would just give it a try. I used both, the Creative and the Asus/Dolby virtual speaker setting with my cheap desktop speakers at times. Not bad for 50 € speakers I would say. Headphones is much better though, but again not bad. If you have more decent desktop speakers, It's worth a try.


----------



## Jacobh

I've been spending some time trying to find a virtual surround sound setup I can use primarily for movies and some 5.1 music content that I have.  In general I prefer listening to music in stereo, but I have some 5.1 DVD Audio that I sometimes enjoy listening to even with headphones.  I do game a little bit, but I care more about immersion than pin-point accuracy.  In that respect I care more about sound quality, overall effect, and immersion rather than positional accuracy (for my uses positional accuracy was acceptable on all of them, but probably not for serious gamers).  Hopefully my experience is helpful for others.

*Razer Surround Free:*  The most finicky from a software perspective, and it flat out didn't work on several computers I tried it on.  The overall effect was OK, but I found it the worst for listening to music.  I could take it or leave it for movies.  Maybe the paid version where you can customize the HRTF is a bit better.  You can try it out for free, so there's not much harm in seeing how it works.   Since you can get a Xonar DG/DGX or U3 on sale for about the same price as the paid version of Razer, I'd personally go with those options.  If you have any Razer products, I think you can get the pro version for free so you should at least check.

*Realtek with Dolby Headphone:  *I tried this with modded Realtek drivers on my motherboard analog out.  For my chipset, I do not have the option to select which "room" to use (e.g. DH1, DH2, DH3) and the option is only enabled when I use the front panel headphone jack.  For configuration you can set the Realtek speaker output to 5.1/7.1, plug in your headphones, and turn on Dolby Home Theater in the speaker options.  If you aren't using the headphone jack this enables ProLogic speaker virtualization.  

On first listen, Dolby Headphone gives the most noticeable effect.  The reverb/echo creates the most sense of space around each virtual speaker and it does something with the EQ that really fills in the sound.  You can hear this in most of the game demo videos where the explosion and other bass heavy effects have a lot of "oomph."  For music, the EQ also helps with more acoustic songs, but can become overwhelming with more compressed rock songs.  The echo though is just overly distracting for any length of time in many applications.  

*Blaster X Acoustic Engine Software:* You can download the "lite" version for free and manually edit config files to setup different profiles.  Once you've got profiles configured, it's easy to use and free.  Unlike Dolby Headphone, I can output virtual surround sound via the Realtek headphone out or analog speaker out and set the speakers to 5.1 or 7.1 in Windows.  As many people have reported a stereo only output device (any SPDIF) will only let you assign the Windows speakers to stereo.  However if have 5.1 or 7.1 sound on your motherboard and are OK using analog out then you do get fully functional VSS.  I assume X-FI MB3 is the same.

On the whole, I think this provided the best effect with the least impact on tonal balance.  When listening to music, I sometimes thought this created a bit of a "hollow" feeling in the middle of the sound-stage and it didn't have the same "oomph" as Dolby Headphone in the mids/lows.  Adjusting the EQ helped fill in the sound some, but Dolby is doing something to really bring out the lows.  That being said, Creatives VSS was closest in balance to the source material and did not have any of the echo effect of Dolby.  For me, this was the best all around virtual surround.

*SBX Surround Pro:  *I tested this out using a Soundlbaster Omni USB sound card.  I could not tell any significant differences between this and the Blaster X.  It's possible the different surround values work a little different, but to me the overall sound quality and effect was the same.

*Dolby Atmos for  Headphones (Windows): *This only works for me with Windows set to stereo.  Since I don't have any Atmos content, I'm think in practice this is using ProLogic to upmix stereo and then virtualize that.  I could be wrong on this and maybe Windows is somehow feeding 5.1 or 7.1 sources into the virtualizer *prior *to the stereo downmix and it is really virtualizing 5.1 content.  Unfortunately, my trial expired and the software won't let me purchase even if I want to for some reason and I did not test this against the others.  From my recollection this actually worked OK with stereo music and was the best option for music in general.  For stereo sources, I'd still rather listen in normal stereo though.  Given the complete lack of understanding of what it actually does and all the issues with the roll-out I can't recommend this right now, but it does have potential.

*Overall:  *In terms of which brand of VSS, for movies only I would go with Dolby Headphone.  The extra "oomph" it provides is good for that application and more like what you hear in a movie theater.  For everything else, I'd go Creative.  I don't see the point for Razer given there are inexpensive options of the others.  If you only care about positional accuracy for gaming go with whatever HRTF works best with your ears.

If you have a multi-channel on-board sound card and don't have any noise over the analog output, I'd go with either the software only solutions depending on whether you like Dolby or Creative's VSS.  For Creative if you don't need an EQ and are OK editing .ini files then go with the BlasterX software (free).  If you want the EQ or easier use go with the X-FI MB3.   

If you want VSS over a SPDIF connection to then you are either stuck with Razer or need a sound card with that capability.  Asus and Creative have a wide variety of internal and external cards with the capability to apply VSS to the SPIF output in the $30 - $100 range.  I picked up a Creative Omni, but I may return it for a more portable solution (Xonar U3 or Creative G1).  The software only is fine for my desktop as I have no problems with analog out of my motherboard and the Omni is not as portable as some of the other solutions and the headphone amplifier is over-powered for most of my portable headphones.  I may keep it around since it's the cheapest option for Creative's VSS over SPDIF if I ever need that capability.  The Omni as a DAC alone seems to be competitive in terms of sound quality to DACs I've listened to under $150-$200 though.  

I did not test out Sennheiser's new hardware solutions as they are much more expensive than the other options.


----------



## FlavioWolff

quick question (sorry if already answered. probably is, but couldnt find): isnt possiblity better to trust the game developer and use Stereo/Headphone Stereo mode? I mean, its probably a correct downmix of the channels. Using CMSS-3D HF, DH and such to downmix a 7.1 mix to stereo, without knowing the particularities of the sound engineering of a particular game, doesnt seem accurate.. what do u guys think? When u choose stereo and headphones option from a game, its probably a correct HTRF downmix, isnt it?

Sorry for my lack of knowledge.


----------



## BrightCandle

I have a similar view on them actually with one additional point, the Sennheiser GSX 1000 is better than the soundblaster for positional information by some margin. It also removes the hollow mids making it a much more well rounded device in general. I recommend it a lot more than a Creative product now, its more expensive and practically it needs an amp after it for headphones as its not a very good amp (nor is the DAC fantastic either this is no Schiit stack replacement in one box) but the surround sound is second to nothing else I have heard so far.


----------



## BrightCandle

FlavioWolff said:


> quick question (sorry if already answered. probably is, but couldnt find): isnt possiblity better to trust the game developer and use Stereo/Headphone Stereo mode? I mean, its probably a correct downmix of the channels. Using CMSS-3D HF, DH and such to downmix a 7.1 mix to stereo, without knowing the particularities of the sound engineering of a particular game, doesnt seem accurate.. what do u guys think? When u choose stereo and headphones option from a game, its probably a correct HTRF downmix, isnt it?
> 
> Sorry for my lack of knowledge.



No it isn't. It all depends on precisely what sound API middleware the game developers use. Most of them do something really basic and the end result is you hear things but with poor positional information. A few games like Overwatch have Dolby atmos headphone built in but the majority really don't and they have by and large just used two channels with minimal HRTF implementation as provided by Microsoft in DirectX. That HRTF doesn't work well for just about everybody, I don't know what MS did wrong with it but I get no positional information out of that at all and neither do most people.

If you can pinpoint the direction of a gunshot in a game like battlefield with just headphone mode on then you are luck, MS DirectX 2 channel headphone mode is working for you. Some games wont use it and wont provide headphone capabilities beyond just 2 channels and would still be served better with a sound card with 5.1 -> 2.0 HRTF for headphones but it becomes less important.


----------



## Casef

Jacobh said:


> *SBX Surround Pro: *I tested this out using a Soundlbaster Omni USB sound card. I could not tell any significant differences between this and the Blaster X. It's possible the different surround values work a little different, but to me the overall sound quality and effect was the same.



Based on your post I've downloaded and tried the Blaster X Engine, since I'm interested in testing any virtual surround solutions I can get my hands on, and as an SB Omni user and someone who doesn't really like SBX Surround based on my experience with it on this card, I can tell you there's definitely a difference. The biggest one for me is the fact that with the Omni, left and right surround channels sound more like left and right side channels. The rear sound cues are quite "flat" due to this - there's pretty much no real "stereo image" or how you'd call it with the rear sound cues, they're located either to the sides or directly behind you, nothing much between this.

With the Blaster X Engine, the left and right surround channels are located much more where they "should" be, therefore the rear sound cues have a lot more "width" available to them, the rear sound image is much "fuller".

In both cases, you can further adjust the isolation and directionality of the channels using the "Surround" slider , of course.

This one difference alone has made me like the Blaster X Engine much more than the SBX Surround on the Omni. In fact I'm going to give it a try and maybe use it as my preferred virtual surround solution. I'm normally a Dolby Headphone guy as I can tweak it using the virtual speaker shifter exactly to my liking, but it has a bit too much reverb than I'd like, so I'm always looking for an alternative.


----------



## Jacobh

BrightCandle said:


> I have a similar view on them actually with one additional point, the Sennheiser GSX 1000 is better than the soundblaster for positional information by some margin. It also removes the hollow mids making it a much more well rounded device in general. I recommend it a lot more than a Creative product now, its more expensive and practically it needs an amp after it for headphones as its not a very good amp (nor is the DAC fantastic either this is no Schiit stack replacement in one box) but the surround sound is second to nothing else I have heard so far.



Thanks for that perspective.  The GSX 1000 is a bit more than I'm willing to spend for the amount of time I listen to VSS, but I'll keep my eye out for a used one.  



Casef said:


> Based on your post I've downloaded and tried the Blaster X Engine, since I'm interested in testing any virtual surround solutions I can get my hands on, and as an SB Omni user and someone who doesn't really like SBX Surround based on my experience with it on this card, I can tell you there's definitely a difference. The biggest one for me is the fact that with the Omni, left and right surround channels sound more like left and right side channels. The rear sound cues are quite "flat" due to this - there's pretty much no real "stereo image" or how you'd call it with the rear sound cues, they're located either to the sides or directly behind you, nothing much between this.



Glad the software worked out for you.  If you have a multi-channel sound card already, it's a good solution.  I think everyone is a bit different with respect to HRTF, so for me any difference was subtle enough to be negligible.  Unfortunately, I have yet to find a solution where the rear speakers don't sound more like side-surround than true rear to me.  Maybe the GSX would do it, but the other solutions are good enough for me.

I'm going to keep my Omni.  It's small enough to fit in my laptop bag and the microphone and ability to output VSS over optical are enough to make it worth the difference in price over a G1 or something similar.  A software only solution won't work for my laptop since it does not have a 5.1/7.1 on board sound.


----------



## Casef

Yeah, HRTF is definitely somewhat subjective.


----------



## BrightCandle

We all seem to respond a little differently to the different implementations. Some people seem to get good positional cues from the microsoft headphone implementation in DirectX but I don't find it to work at all beyond anything but stereo for me. I did get some positional cues from Dolby Headphone but I found it wasn't very accurate and front to rear was a real problem, I couldn't tell them apart. CMSS and SBX Pro both gave me reasonable positional awareness and I can tell front from rear but the sound was hollow. The GSX 1000 is as better for positional cues and it doesn't sound hollow but its also not like real life yet either.


----------



## FlavioWolff

BrightCandle said:


> No it isn't. It all depends on precisely what sound API middleware the game developers use. Most of them do something really basic and the end result is you hear things but with poor positional information. A few games like Overwatch have Dolby atmos headphone built in but the majority really don't and they have by and large just used two channels with minimal HRTF implementation as provided by Microsoft in DirectX. That HRTF doesn't work well for just about everybody, I don't know what MS did wrong with it but I get no positional information out of that at all and neither do most people.
> 
> If you can pinpoint the direction of a gunshot in a game like battlefield with just headphone mode on then you are luck, MS DirectX 2 channel headphone mode is working for you. Some games wont use it and wont provide headphone capabilities beyond just 2 channels and would still be served better with a sound card with 5.1 -> 2.0 HRTF for headphones but it becomes less important.



Thank you for your answer.


----------



## TranceDude

I've just gotten back into CS:GO with my Q701 and X-Fi Titanium HD. What settings give the best sound positioning atm?

5.1 in options, CMSS-3D, snd_legacy_surround 1 and using ALchemy to restore DirectSound3D
Stereo headphones in options and CMSS-3D
Stereo headphones (HRTF) in options and no CMSS-3D

I intend to try it out anyway, it'll just take a while, what do others run?


----------



## mindbomb (Aug 6, 2017)

On the headphone subreddit, someone posted how to get various headphone surround dsps through the convolver of equalizer apo.
https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones...e_every_headphone_surround_virtualization_on/

This includes stuff from dolby, sennheiser, creative and others. So all these things are now free and anyone can try them on their own pc.


----------



## dmbr

mindbomb said:


> On the headphone subreddit, someone posted how to get various headphone surround dsps through the convolver of equalizer apo.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones...e_every_headphone_surround_virtualization_on/
> 
> This includes stuff from dolby, sennheiser, creative and others. So all these things are now free and anyone can try them on their own pc.


Wow, this looks great. I'm a little weary of messing up my OS though...has anyone here tried it?


----------



## mindbomb

I've tried it, and it works. The short version is that you set windows to 7.1, install equalizer apo, and then place a folder in the equalizer apo directory. If you can't set windows to 7.1, you have to do a workaround to do that. And lastly you edit a config file in the equalizer apo directory to select the virtual surround you want.

You can uninstall equalizer apo to undo the changes.


----------



## NamelessPFG

*Guess who's back after a very long hiatus.* This place wasn't exactly good for my bank account, I had nothing new to write about (let alone rewritten the existing guide outright), Ossic still hasn't delivered what they promised us Kickstarter backers...

...but I wound up being in the very fortunate position to review the Sennheiser GSX 1000 and GAME ZERO at no cost, so I'm back. I haven't finished writing up about 'em, but let me tell you all this much: it'll be pretty key for when I do totally overhaul the ol' guide.

I still need more time to write up the review proper, but if you want to get an idea of what the GSX 1000's virtual 7.1 sounds like, I'm gonna stream with it on while playing Destiny 2 all night. Come on in, and bring your favorite headphones!
https://go.twitch.tv/namelesspfg


----------



## motorwayne

G'day,

Story: I'm changing from some Philips X2's (Tried to keep them for 3 months, like them, but too heavy and I get a sore neck after a couple of hours) to a set of AKG 712 Pro's (Ordered and have had the 612's in the past) and 
from what I understand the AKG's will need more amping than the X2's.

*I have a quick question.*
Which option will work best, I own both the SB Titanium HD and the Sennheiser GSX 1000 and I have an JDS Labs 02 amp. I like both in terms of surround sounds abilities.

*Use:*
1) A Creative SB Titanium HD soundcard outputing to a JDS Labs Objective 02 to drive the 712's - or
2) The Sennheiser GSX 1000 outputing to the JDS Labs Objective 02 to drive the 712's


Cheers


----------



## Evshrug

Motorwayne,
Since you are going to use the O2 + K712 combo regardless, it really just comes down to your preference between the GSX 1000 and Ti HD.

By point of comparison, the GSX is external and uses USB-A, Windows/Mac compatible (works with PS4 in stereo too), has a software switch to output to speakers without having to go unplug physically, different Binaural processing, separate virtual devices for game audio (“speakers”) and chat Audio (“communication headset”) and a physical wheel for game/chat volume balance to make teamspeak easy, and more. Personally, I have a few headphones that are powered effectively straight from the GSX’s headphone output, but I did enjoy hooking up my desktop amp and HD 800 to the GSX for giggles.

The Ti HD has its own benefits and features which (considering its age), I’m sure you’re aware of, but that just means you’ll have to choose for yourself.


----------



## NamelessPFG

motorwayne said:


> Story: I'm changing from some Philips X2's (Tried to keep them for 3 months, like them, but too heavy and I get a sore neck after a couple of hours) to a set of AKG 712 Pro's (Ordered and have had the 612's in the past) and
> from what I understand the AKG's will need more amping than the X2's.
> 
> *I have a quick question.*
> ...


From a gaming standpoint, it depends on which surround implementation you like better and what games you're playing. I've spent enough time with both that, _for me_, the GSX 1000 sounds better with software 7.1 mixed games in terms of sheer positional accuracy (something I've _never_ said for any other virtual surround tech I've tried to date), but the X-Fi Titanium HD still rules the roost if you're playing anything old enough to use DS3D or OpenAL (which, at this point, is almost certainly over a decade old since most of those games were released in 2007 or earlier).

From an audio quality standpoint, _the Titanium HD has a much lower noise floor and generally superior audio quality._ I don't claim to have audiophile ears, but the difference is pretty obvious between the two there. Because of that, it makes a far cleaner source to amplify with something like an Objective2 right off the bat, so I'd have my music listening done that way.

This isn't to say that the GSX 1000 sounds bad for general listening by any means, but there's still room for improvement in any future models Sennheiser wishes to produce down the line. I wouldn't mind seeing them produce a cleaner-output version that would provide a good source for even the high-end HD 800 or Orpheus systems, just for kicks. (Gaming on an Orpheus, you say? _Only on Head-Fi!_)


----------



## Evshrug

NamelessPFG said:


> Gaming on an Orpheus, you say? _Only on Head-Fi!_


Not impossible. Stranger Things have happened...


----------



## DevilofLife (Nov 13, 2017)

Deleted post wrong thread


----------



## Jiv_au

mindbomb said:


> On the headphone subreddit, someone posted how to get various headphone surround dsps through the convolver of equalizer apo.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones...e_every_headphone_surround_virtualization_on/



I've tried it and... this is amazing!

I tried the GSX++.wav file and to me it's definitely clearer than any of the other virtual surround sound software I've experienced (Win Sonic, Dolby Atmos for HP, Razer, Spatial Sound Card).
Unfortunately I don't have any hardware solution to compare to (e.g. Sennheiser GSX 1000) so I'm unable tell how close they are to the real thing. 

Would anyone be willing to do a comparison between their hardware surround sound and this Equalizer APO setup?


----------



## mindbomb (Dec 6, 2017)

Jiv_au said:


> I've tried it and... this is amazing!
> 
> I tried the GSX++.wav file and to me it's definitely clearer than any of the other virtual surround sound software I've experienced (Win Sonic, Dolby Atmos for HP, Razer, Spatial Sound Card).
> Unfortunately I don't have any hardware solution to compare to (e.g. Sennheiser GSX 1000) so I'm unable tell how close they are to the real thing.
> ...



I compared my hardware dolby headphone dh1 to the equalizer apo version, and I thought it sounded the same. I didn't do a very thorough analysis though. You can also check the gsx one against namelesspfg's twitch stream, https://www.twitch.tv/namelesspfg , since his stream has hardware gsx baked in. I did do that and recall it being similar.

hmm, he has no videos available outside of the live stream, so that comparison might be harder to do than I thought. Other videos on youtube also have the hardware version baked in.


----------



## Jiv_au

mindbomb said:


> Other videos on youtube also have the hardware version baked in.



Is that where they connect the GSX line out to their computer mic in?
Because I remember the video author explaining in the comments that the recording did not accurately reflect what one would hear through the headphone that is directly connected to the GSX.


----------



## mindbomb

Jiv_au said:


> Is that where they connect the GSX line out to their computer mic in?
> Because I remember the video author explaining in the comments that the recording did not accurately reflect what one would hear through the headphone that is directly connected to the GSX.



Well, something like that. I think it would be headphone out of the gsx to a line in on some recording device. I don't see why there would be big differences between that and connecting directly to the gsx with headphones.


----------



## Jralston89

Hey friends,
I consider myself a smart guy, but this audio stuff makes me feel like a moron. Ill summarize and pray you guys can help and maybe give a recommendation.
-Have high end PC, NO SOUND CARD (MOBO Sabertooth Z170 S, REALTEK ALC1150 audio codec)
-Have K712 and schitt magni 3 in mail (from reading thought I needed amp to power these)?
Should I just be getting a Sound card?
80%game 20%music. Really just want great positional audio for my FPS games (PUBG, BF1) and at the same time feel immersed

There are SOOOO many oppinions and I understand why. Instead of getting less confusing the more you read, it seems to get more so due to those oppinions and more subjects that open up like 3D surround audio and what not, its hard to sort through what I actually need to
1. push the k712
2. get the best possible game audio and positional accuracy

ANY help would be greatly appreciated


----------



## Diji1 (Dec 15, 2017)

Jralston89 said:


> Hey friends,
> I consider myself a smart guy, but this audio stuff makes me feel like a moron. Ill summarize and pray you guys can help and maybe give a recommendation.
> -Have high end PC, NO SOUND CARD (MOBO Sabertooth Z170 S, REALTEK ALC1150 audio codec)
> -Have K712 and schitt magni 3 in mail (from reading thought I needed amp to power these)?
> ...



Hi - I hear ya and unfortunately there is a lot of variables and confusion with surround sound that leads to misinformation (often not even wrong misinformation meaning HTRF's are not made for everyone's head shape so people can use the same thing and it only works for one of them.)

I found this video helpful:  - it's about how to use Equalizer APO to mix surround sound to stereo binaural but it explains how headphone surround sound works.

I recently discovered Equalizer APO and it's great.  The video shows how to use a whole bunch of HTRF's and find the one most suited to your head shape as well as how to mix multi-channel game surround sound to binaural audio.  Note that the editor wouldn't open for me for unknown reasons but you can edit surround.txt with the name of the HTRF convolver that you want to use (see video and reddit thread).

I haven't tried it on a lot of games yet but it's done wonders for Dirt 4 and PUBG.

I highly recommend everyone check it out - it's the most complete EQ I've ever seen as well.  Also, contrary to what was posted earlier, it works using a 5.1 device in Windows, 7.1 isn't mandatory.  I'm changing from a 5.1 to 7.1 device but I'm not sure if it changes the effectiveness of Equalizer APO.

I also have K712 Pros but I use an internal PC soundcard for an amp, currently Soundblaster ZxR but I'm moving to a SoundblasterX AE-5 which I'd recommend as a sound card.

I think for gaming using an external amp won't work all of the time because optical won't carry audio (but I could be wrong!) - unless you have HDMI input on the amp presumably.  Some people dislike the "color" that internal soundcard amps impart to the sound compared to external amps though - personally I haven't had this issue.


----------



## Glasofruix

If anyone wonders how Destiny 2 sounds with the gsx, i've made a video:


----------



## mindbomb

I've been trying dolby atmos headphone recently, and honestly, that gsx video was so refreshing. I was a longtime dolby headphone user, and I can go pretty seamlessly to windows sonic headphones and sennheiser gsx, but dolby atmos headphone has such a lack of out of the head sound for me. Maybe I'm not being fair and giving it enough time, but at this point, it's just not working well for me.


----------



## Glasofruix

Dolby atmos for headphones and windows sonic have the same problem, they simply don't work with modern games because games do not output a surround signal when they don't see surround speakers configured in windows.


----------



## mindbomb (Dec 29, 2017)

yea, i'm doing the cheeky equalizerapo method to get around that. But even with that, and in overwatch which has it built in, I find the experience to be not spacious enough.


----------



## Glasofruix (Dec 30, 2017)

Can someone take a look at this and explain to the guy why he's wrong?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sennheiser-gsx-1000-1200-impressions.824923/page-59


----------



## nraymond

I have a lot of games installed on my Win 10 gaming PC, from old 32-bit EAX titles to modern 64-bit titles (some OpenAL, some DirectX Audio, some XAudio2, some Blue Ripple Sound Rapture 3D, some Dolby Atmos...) I use Creative ALchemy when it's useful and edit .ini files and game registry settings when needed to enable the appropriate Creative OpenAL features.

Anyway, I use 2.1 speakers handled by an SMSL amp that has a subwoofer out (so it takes 2-channel analog input) and headphones. My goals are the best sound quality on a range of headphones (I have a few, low to mid ohms) and ease of use switching from speakers to headphones and being able to use the best virtual surround on the stereo speakers and HRTF on the headphones.

I have an Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium (non-HD) which I retired a few months ago and replaced with a Sound Blaster Zx. I like the cleaner software and relative ease of switching between speakers and headphones on the Zx, but I get annoyed having to still sometimes switch between stereo and 5.1 in the Windows control panel to be able to use the appropriate sound mode in games for headphones or speakers, since some modern games don't let me configure more speakers in the game settings than I have configured in the control panel. Also it would be good to have a headphone amp with lower output impedance to use with my 16 ohm headphones (from what I've gathered the the X-Fi Titanium is 35 ohm and the Zx is 22 ohm). So my choices would appear to be:

1. Put a dedicated low-ohm headphone amp on the line out of the X-Fi Ti or Zx. I have one already that is 5 ohm and has passthrough line out. Question is, can I switch between virtual surround on stereo speakers and a good headphone HRTF on line out fairly easily, or is this going to be a pain?

2. Buy a Sound BlasterX AE-5 since it has a 1ohm headphone out and better quality DACs, should be a bit of a step-up from the Zx but probably the same cumbersome speaker configuration switching I'm used to.

3. Buy a Sound Blaster G5 since it has a 2.2ohm headphone out and presents itself as a 7.1 device. It seems like this would simplify getting a good HRTF set up for the majority of games old and new (except I imagine titles like Overwatch and it's integrated Dolby Atmos Headphone mode). What I don't know is how the line out works... is it affected by the soft volume knob on the G5? (I want just a fixed line out, since my SMSL amp has it's own volume control.) I see that in the software you can optionally tell the G5 to output virtualized headphone audio over the line out... obviously I don't want that. What I don't know is what happens if that is not checked? What kind of audio goes out over line out if the G5 is presenting itself as a 7.1 device and doing virtualized headphone? Is there a way to switch it to virtualized surround for speakers quickly and easily? And if the G5 is more convenient than the AE-5, is the quality drop not worth it? They're not that different in price...


----------



## Tohex

nraymond said:


> 3. Buy a Sound Blaster G5 since it has a 2.2ohm headphone out and presents itself as a 7.1 device. It seems like this would simplify getting a good HRTF set up for the majority of games old and new (except I imagine titles like Overwatch and it's integrated Dolby Atmos Headphone mode). What I don't know is how the line out works... is it affected by the soft volume knob on the G5? (I want just a fixed line out, since my SMSL amp has it's own volume control.)



You'd be better off posting in the SBx G5 thread with that sort of question. Check it out here mate; https://www.head-fi.org/threads/creative-g5-discussion-and-reviews.790796/page-41


----------



## mindbomb (Mar 31, 2018)

I've been doing optical output from a xonar with dolby headphone baked in, and I was thinking about what alternatives there are now if I wanted to avoid spdif. I could do get a soundblaster ae5 and do line out from it to my amp. I could get Darin Fong's Out of your Head software and get a usb dac.  I could also get an Audeze Mobius, but it seems like a shame to not use the headphones and headphone amp I already have. What are the other good hardware and software solutions?


----------



## VlLLA

Hi
Guys AD700X WITH COMBO AMPMIX PRO TR FOR PS4 IS THE BEST?
FULL POWER HEADSET?
DO I WORK PCM OR DOLBY?


----------



## AppleheadMay

VlLLA said:


> Hi
> Guys AD700X WITH COMBO AMPMIX PRO TR FOR PS4 IS THE BEST?
> FULL POWER HEADSET?
> DO I WORK PCM OR DOLBY?



You'll have to shout louder, we can't hear you, we're way too deaf from using all these phones.


----------



## Avean (Apr 21, 2018)

Diji1 said:


> Hi - I hear ya and unfortunately there is a lot of variables and confusion with surround sound that leads to misinformation (often not even wrong misinformation meaning HTRF's are not made for everyone's head shape so people can use the same thing and it only works for one of them.)
> 
> I found this video helpful:  - it's about how to use Equalizer APO to mix surround sound to stereo binaural but it explains how headphone surround sound works.
> 
> ...




This is quite interesting. But does HeSuVi take over EqualizerAPO. Not sure how it actually works. Cause Hesuvi have its own interface which you can close but the surround effect is still there. I am using EqualizerAPO to fix my headphones so wondering if it can handle both? Both equalizer APO and the effect you selected in Hesuvi. It seems it does both.


Edit: Found out. Hesuvi install actually replaces your config file in EqualizerAPO so i had to add a new line including my previous config. So you can run both actually.


----------



## TranceDude

Hello, can somebody using a Xonar soundcard's S/PDIF out to an external DAC test if HeSuVi carries over? Any theories on whether it should carry it or not?


----------



## BrightCandle

TranceDude said:


> Hello, can somebody using a Xonar soundcard's S/PDIF out to an external DAC test if HeSuVi carries over? Any theories on whether it should carry it or not?



You can make it work regardless. Equalizer APO may support the Xonar card and allow you to set it directly with the Hesuvi profile and that is all you need to do as it will then output 2.0 headphone out of the cards output. If that wasn't to work then you can use a virtual cable or Voicemeter and have that point to the Xonar in 2.0 mode and have it output however you want. So it will work, how much you need to do depends on Equalizer APO support. My Sennheiser GSX 1000 just plain causes problems so needed a virtual cable, the Modi can't be set to anything more than 2.0 also needs a virtual cable.


----------



## mindbomb

TranceDude said:


> Hello, can somebody using a Xonar soundcard's S/PDIF out to an external DAC test if HeSuVi carries over? Any theories on whether it should carry it or not?



Yea, it can work. There are 2 ways to get spdif output. One is to go straight to the spdif transmitter - you want to avoid this way since it is limited to 2 channel. The other way is to go into the xonar control panel and tick spdif out: pcm. This allows you to set windows to 7.1 and thus easily use hesuvi.


----------



## st0neh

Glasofruix said:


> Dolby atmos for headphones and windows sonic have the same problem, they simply don't work with modern games because games do not output a surround signal when they don't see surround speakers configured in windows.



Isn't that the whole point of the "Turn on virtual 7,1 surround" checkbox though, to identify to applications as a 7.1 device?


----------



## Glasofruix

In theory yes, in practice your speakers are still set to stereo and therefore the output is set as such by whoever decided that you couldn't select your audio outputs properly all by yourself. Normally games should detect this as proper surround setup, but i have yet to see one.


----------



## st0neh

Glasofruix said:


> In theory yes, in practice your speakers are still set to stereo and therefore the output is set as such by whoever decided that you couldn't select your audio outputs properly all by yourself. Normally games should detect this as proper surround setup, but i have yet to see one.



The whole point of the checkbox though is that even though your audio device is still set to 2 channel the game is still outputting 7.1 to Windows Sonic so it has everything it needs to output virtual surround to that 2 channel device.

I don't think I've encountered a game yet where the virtual surround doesn't work well for me when using Windows Sonic.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD (Jul 19, 2018)

st0neh said:


> The whole point of the checkbox though is that even though your audio device is still set to 2 channel the game is still outputting 7.1 to Windows Sonic so it has everything it needs to output virtual surround to that 2 channel device.
> 
> I don't think I've encountered a game yet where the virtual surround doesn't work well for me when using Windows Sonic.



I think this too, the 2 channel speaker setting was kept displayed as such to avoid "confusion" for casuals that be like 7.1 speakers is obviously only working for 7.1 speakers but it could very well be internally Windows mixes audio just as it was set to 7.1 speakers and it was just a decision they made to keep it more logically displayed perhaps.

To be nitpicking I had preferred if they let users choose between 5.1 or 7.1 as I personally think 5.1 works better for headphones, 7.1 is like too many virtual channels for such a confined space so I think the directional cues are more clear over 5.1.


----------



## Glasofruix (Jul 19, 2018)

Games do not output virtual surround (at least the ones without a specific setting) to windows sonic. They output 7.1 and then it mixes the sound into virtual surround. The easy way to check is to launch a game that lets you see its output, like titanfall 2 or nier automata. With windows sonic all i hear is more reverb over plain stereo.


----------



## st0neh

Glasofruix said:


> Games do not output virtual surround (at least the ones without a specific setting) to windows sonic. They output 7.1 and then it mixes the sound into virtual surround. The easy way to check is to launch a game that lets you see its output, like titanfall 2 or nier automata. With windows sonic all i hear is more reverb over plain stereo.



That's what I just said. The 7.1 checkbox for want of a better term just "tricks" the game into sending it a 7.1 output that Windows Sonic then mixes down to a virtual surround output. All this happens even though the Windows speaker setting is 2 channel.


----------



## Glasofruix

Yes, it's supposed to do that, but it doesn't. Like i said, launch a game that shows you its output and you'll see it set to stereo. Not how windows is configured as, but what it actually sends to windows sonic.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD

Glasofruix said:


> Yes, it's supposed to do that, but it doesn't. Like i said, launch a game that shows you its output and you'll see it set to stereo. Not how windows is configured as, but what it actually sends to windows sonic.



I haven't played a lot of games but I never saw games put 5.1 speakers if windows uses 5.1 speakers so I always thought that was the game's own "ingame" mixing of some sort which is separate from the Windows audio process. Only a few games I've played like Battlefield and CS is having ingame speaker config for starters.


----------



## st0neh

Glasofruix said:


> Yes, it's supposed to do that, but it doesn't. Like i said, launch a game that shows you its output and you'll see it set to stereo. Not how windows is configured as, but what it actually sends to windows sonic.



Just playing games with it enabled makes it pretty obvious it's working. I just stopped worrying about what the output device in Windows says.


----------



## Glasofruix

RPGWiZaRD said:


> I haven't played a lot of games but I never saw games put 5.1 speakers if windows uses 5.1 speakers so I always thought that was the game's own "ingame" mixing of some sort which is separate from the Windows audio process. Only a few games I've played like Battlefield and CS is having ingame speaker config for starters.



Titanfall 2, nier atomata an shadow warrior 2 show their audio configuration but don't let you change it. Even with windows sonic properly enabled they show stereo. Most games just ignore windows sonic.


----------



## Glasofruix

st0neh said:


> Just playing games with it enabled makes it pretty obvious it's working. I just stopped worrying about what the output device in Windows says.



Yes, it does a stereo expand, aka reverb. Very obvious when you can compare with proper vss. And i'm talking about what games say.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD (Jul 19, 2018)

I just kept using plain 5.1 speaker setting in windows personally as I think it tends to work favorly but only possible with soundcards obviously with multichannel support. Do note though, it only works as it should if not using "Direct Drive" / "Disable Enhancements" or however your soundcard calls it as that changes it to a pure 2 channel mixing from start to finish.

If you don't mind me jumping to something entirely different though, I gave "Waves NX" app a go that was actually primarily meant for mixing surround sound over headphones for music mastering but it's supposed to be featured in the upcoming Audeze Mobius gaming headset and was quite suprised with how well it works for gaming too. Would be cool if there was more presets or configurability in the NX app though which will be fixed with Mobius that has more presets and eventually will feature custom EQ capabilities.

I mean I don't like Dolby Headphone, Atmos, Razer Surround, SBX etc due to how it impacts sound quality too much for my tastes and sound a bit too artificial but this Waves surround worked very well to me, sounds both natural and even as an app, the impact on sound quality was pretty minimal and things should be even better in the headset itself as the processing is done in the built in DSP chip compared to the Windows app which adds its own virtual soundcard device and routes your soundcard audio signal to it (which adds more layers to the audio process but even so there was no noticeable delay). It provides very consistent results whatever game or movie etc you check out too.

It's free to try for 30 days and I'd gladly hear more opinions on this https://www.waves.com/nx/mac-windows-app


----------



## st0neh

Glasofruix said:


> Yes, it does a stereo expand, aka reverb. Very obvious when you can compare with proper vss. And i'm talking about what games say.



The difference between decent virtual surround and crappy stereo expansion is glaringly obvious though. I'm getting virtual surround.


----------



## mindbomb (Jul 22, 2018)

st0neh said:


> Isn't that the whole point of the "Turn on virtual 7,1 surround" checkbox though, to identify to applications as a 7.1 device?



afaik, no. The virtual 7.1 checkbox means that the dsp will work on 7.1 and 5.1 pcm, rather than just the object based audio.


----------



## RPGWiZaRD (Jul 22, 2018)

BTW, https://us.creative.com/sxfi/

Anyone else excited to test this new chip from Creative called Super X-Fi, from all the genuine impressions you read below on the page in regards to CES (there's multiple YouTube videos out there too) all these people seemed genuinly impressed by it. Appearently something Creative has worked on in the background for many years, I don't remember if it was like 10 or whatever years I heard in an interview with the Creative CEO, something he has dreamed about to do for a long time. Appearently the people that were shown the demo, couldn't tell the Dolby Atmos speaker setup vs the headphones with Super X-Fi apart when switching between the speakers and headphones.

Good thing is that they'll also license this chip to other manufacturers and intend to sell most of the chips probably this way, if this means built-in to headphones or what we'll see but it will be pretty interesting. There is a small headphone dongle initially sold with this chip in it but I'll wait for traditional soundcard (USB or PCI-E based doesn't matter) personally before I'll give this a go.


----------



## Glasofruix

I've been following this since they've announced it last year, will definitely give it a try when it becomes available.


----------



## pietcux

Glasofruix said:


> I've been following this since they've announced it last year, will definitely give it a try when it becomes available.


Same here for sure. BTW, What was the name of that product?


----------



## mindbomb

Glasofruix said:


> Yes, it does a stereo expand, aka reverb. Very obvious when you can compare with proper vss. And i'm talking about what games say.





st0neh said:


> The difference between decent virtual surround and crappy stereo expansion is glaringly obvious though. I'm getting virtual surround.



I did some testing last night where I went into the training area in overwatch, and recorded the audio of different actions, once with windows sonic for headphones enabled and another time with it off. I then put them into foobar abx test, and I couldn't tell the difference when switching between them. So either I ran into some strange bug, or it doesn't do anything.

To use the windows sonic for headphone algorithm, I think it is best to set windows to 7.1, 48khz, install equalizerapo and hesuvi, and select sonic.wav in hesuvi.


----------



## Zandermannnn (Aug 17, 2018)

Upgrading my AD700s to a K702 and some kind of amp. I currently have a Titanium HD and use CMSS-3D. Is there anything worth upgrading the Titanium HD to for positional audio in FPS games? Most of my time is spent in Battlefield/PUBG. I've heard the GSX 1000 is good as well as the SBZ card that uses SBX Pro.


----------



## AIucardd

Hello everyone! Just a quick question, what whould be better for great surround and pin point positioning in games:
1. Asus xonar essense STX + beyerdynamic dt 990 pro 250ohm;
2. sennheiser game one + Sennheiser GSX 1000;

For some context: I have Asus xonar essense STX and Sennheiser 363d. Wanna change my headphones (too old) but don't have an options to listen all of the new one before buing (only shipment acoss the country).
Selling most of my pc parts for the upgrade, considering selling *essense STX*. Should I do that, or Asus xonar essense STX + beyerdynamic dt 990 pro 250ohm whould give me good suround for competitive gaming?
*
*


----------



## nraymond

Personally I had been using my SoundBlaster Zx and had been happy with the SBX Pro Studio Surround for headphones (had primarily been using my Hifiman HE-400i for gaming), but now I just use the SoundBlaster Zx to drive my speakers... the Audeze Mobius headphone launch got me interested in head tracking surround headphones and I traded in some headphones to 1More and picked up their Spearhead VRX (which also uses Waves NX head tracking technology like the Mobius, but isn't wireless at all). While the 1More software to configure things is a little rough around the edges, the headphones themselves and the technology works great. I play a lot of Overwatch, and not only is the experience of playing better, but I think it's helped my gameplay too (I can when someone is behind me with much greater ease, so I'm not getting flanked nearly as much, I can more easily locate opponents just by sound). I think it's worth considering a Waves NX headtracking headset if you're into competitive gaming on PC.


----------



## BrightCandle

AIucardd said:


> Hello everyone! Just a quick question, what whould be better for great surround and pin point positioning in games:
> 1. Asus xonar essense STX + beyerdynamic dt 990 pro 250ohm;
> 2. sennheiser game one + Sennheiser GSX 1000;
> 
> ...


The GSX 1000 is better for surround than the Xonar by quite a margin, but the DT 990s are probably better headphones than the Sennheiser game one. Personally I would pick the second option having used a Xonar and the GSX 1000.


----------



## Avean

BrightCandle said:


> The GSX 1000 is better for surround than the Xonar by quite a margin, but the DT 990s are probably better headphones than the Sennheiser game one. Personally I would pick the second option having used a Xonar and the GSX 1000.



Yeah but what is the point after HeSuVi arrived? Its only software so you can choose between whatever surround effect that you like and whats best you can combine that with EQ modifications for your headset as well with Equalizer APO. There simply is no need for hardware solutions i feel after i tested HeSuVi. GSX 1000 on its own is just a very simple amp and so much worse than the Asus Essence STX. I have that card myself and run it with HD700 headset and its pretty amazing AND running GSX 1000 surround tech on top of it with HeSuVi software.

My advice is keep your STX card cause its amazing and get the DT 990's which have a great soundstage and google HeSuVi and set that up. No need to buy GSX 1000.


----------



## stavros.m

By any chance did you try the GSX 1000 with a mic i was watching some youtube reviews and it seem to lower the quality of the mic. Wondering if the G6\G5 or an onboard sound card would be best for headphones and mic

thanks


----------



## Avean

stavros.m said:


> By any chance did you try the GSX 1000 with a mic i was watching some youtube reviews and it seem to lower the quality of the mic. Wondering if the G6\G5 or an onboard sound card would be best for headphones and mic
> 
> thanks



Since the GSX1000 is not affected by motherboard components (static) it gives really clean sound but i still more recommend having a proper sound card and turn off mic boost in windows and rather just EQ boost your microphone through EqualizerAPO. Gives much better results than mic boosts.


----------



## stavros.m

Avean said:


> Since the GSX1000 is not affected by motherboard components (static) it gives really clean sound but i still more recommend having a proper sound card and turn off mic boost in windows and rather just EQ boost your microphone through EqualizerAPO. Gives much better results than mic boosts.



sorry i am a complete noob when it comes to this. Your recommedation would be to skip the GSX1000 and get a proper sound card? Something like sound blaster ZxR or SoundBlaster AE-5? thanks for the help


----------



## Avean

stavros.m said:


> sorry i am a complete noob when it comes to this. Your recommedation would be to skip the GSX1000 and get a proper sound card? Something like sound blaster ZxR or SoundBlaster AE-5? thanks for the help



GSX1000 is good but if youre buying it only for surround there is option to do it through software like this:


ZxR is on another level than GSX1000. The amp is just so much better. I feel people have only been buying the GSX 1000 due to the surround tech but now you can just emulate it so ...


----------



## Glasofruix

Of course people are buying the gsx for the surround and not for its musical qualities.  Equalizer apo looks nice on paper but it's a lagfest when it comes to latency.


----------



## Avean

Glasofruix said:


> Of course people are buying the gsx for the surround and not for its musical qualities.  Equalizer apo looks nice on paper but it's a lagfest when it comes to latency.



HeSuVi is latency free (0ms)


----------



## Glasofruix

Riiiiight.


----------



## Avean

Glasofruix said:


> Riiiiight.


----------



## hifinoob005

What are the correct settings for using Dolby Headphone on a headphone setup on MPC HC/BE + LAV filters? Sound card is Xonar DGX, headphones (Sennheiser 380 Pro) plugged into headphone jack. The source will be 5.1, 7.1.

In windows (10 x64) I set up the speakers as 5.1. I select 6 channels in the sound card, and headphone for analog out.

In the LAV Audio Decoder Properties - Status I can see the bars for 6/8 channels in the Input and Output going up and down (during playback).
The mixers in MPC HC (Internal Filters > Audio Renderer) and LAV are deactivated.
Ignore system channel mixer ticked on. Not using WASAPI. Using Reclock.

Are the other options for virtualization (Sonic, HeSuVi) better than Dolby Headphone?


----------



## mindbomb

hifinoob005 said:


> What are the correct settings for using Dolby Headphone on a headphone setup on MPC HC/BE + LAV filters? Sound card is Xonar DGX, headphones (Sennheiser 380 Pro) plugged into headphone jack. The source will be 5.1, 7.1.
> 
> In windows (10 x64) I set up the speakers as 5.1. I select 6 channels in the sound card, and headphone for analog out.
> 
> ...



When you are using dolby headphone, just treat the software like as if you had surround sound speakers. I've been using 8 channels in the sound card, with dolby headphone dh2 recently, that was pretty good.


----------



## hifinoob005 (Dec 8, 2018)

@mindbomb, the analog is still set at headphone and not speakers?


----------



## mindbomb

hifinoob005 said:


> @mindbomb, the analog is still set at headphone and not speakers?



yea. headphones will enable the headphone amp on the card, and also give you the option for dolby headphone.


----------



## Lausilxn

I've used CMSS 3D for a long time but I found HeSuVi sounds better with "OpenAL soft HRTF" natural and pinpoints without compromising the audio quality


----------



## halcyon

Lausilxn said:


> I've used CMSS 3D for a long time but I found HeSuVi sounds better with "OpenAL soft HRTF" natural and pinpoints without compromising the audio quality



I see that you have tested quite a few HeSuVi modes.

Have you found out the one that in your opinion is the best in front-back localization? The OpenAL is lacking in this regard for me personally (on my setup with TR-X00 headphones).

Thanks!


----------



## Lausilxn

halcyon said:


> I see that you have tested quite a few HeSuVi modes.
> 
> Have you found out the one that in your opinion is the best in front-back localization? The OpenAL is lacking in this regard for me personally (on my setup with TR-X00 headphones).
> 
> Thanks!



As a preference I like a slight difference between the rear cues, you cand find your sweet spot for Front-back localization playing adjustment Speaker Position and volume adjustment and try others HRIR if you want.
Example overloaded


----------



## Zenvota

Beware of clipping OoOoOOoo


----------



## motorwayne

G'day, just looking for an update from people in the know

I have had a Soundblaster Titanium HD into a O2 Amp
I now use a Sennheiser GSX 1000 into a O2 Amp

Anything better in terms of sound devices now?

Cheers


----------



## raband

motorwayne said:


> Anything better in terms of sound devices now?



The Audeze Mobius has replaced the GSX for me for most things.

Creative X7 is my main desktop setup, Mobius when at other machines/laptop/bedroom
GSX when I want to use other cans at those times.


----------



## motorwayne

Too funny!

After looking around last night after you comments, I installed the HeSuVi software for a muck around and found that I liked the SBX and CMSS better than my GSX. So come today, I grabbed out my old SB Titanium HD and reinstalled it, running it then into the O2 Amp and it is cleaner that the GSX through the O2, at least that's how it feels to my ears.

Other thing I learnt was there is a SB-X AE9 apparently nearly out, might be good too.

Think the GSX 1000 is going up for sale and the AKG 712's


----------



## raband

For me the GSX gives the best virtual surround effect than any of the other (except the Mobius) solutions I've tried

Most give me 100% OK rear effects, but do very poorly for frontal effects. The GSX gives me probably 60% frontal (still poor).

Mobius => 100% 360 degree field 

I've also got a SB Titanium HD like you - it's in my racing sim setup


----------



## motorwayne

raband said:


> For me the GSX gives the best virtual surround effect than any of the other (except the Mobius) solutions I've tried
> 
> Most give me 100% OK rear effects, but do very poorly for frontal effects. The GSX gives me probably 60% frontal (still poor).
> 
> ...



Argh! there is that name again  they have a new gaming set due out soon don't they? I can'y stand the non fluffy ears pads, it it had them I'd probably be all over them.


----------



## raband

They do - lacks the sound processing though 



motorwayne said:


> I can'y stand the non fluffy ears pads, it it had them I'd probably be all over them.



I prefer valour myself too.

I did get the "gel filled" pads to replace the pleather ones on the Mobius - much better

https://www.audeze.com/products/accessories/gel-filled-ear-pads-mobius


----------



## Zenvota

motorwayne said:


> Anything better in terms of sound devices now?



Here's the best I've been able to come up with:

1.) Using Out of Your Head for virtualization.
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/

2.) Equalizer APO for flattening out the headphone response
https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/

3.) Planar magnetic headphones like the Hifiman HE-400i or Audeze EL-8

4.) Non feedback current signal class a circuits like from Audio-GD

5.) Isolation and conditioning
Topaz Ultra Isolators for ac power and an optical connection or high speed usb galvanic isolation(uptone iso regen and ultracap lps with ground shunt smps)

6.) And a tactile transducer(bass shaker) system using voicemeter to duplicate the signal or for no latency split the signal out of a dac to a second amplifier.


----------



## motorwayne (Jun 16, 2019)

Zenvota said:


> Here's the best I've been able to come up with:
> 
> 1.) Using Out of Your Head for virtualization.
> https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/
> ...



Sheesh, why don't you tell me how you really feel! Thumps up mate 

Actually great responses...Hey how does fongaudio software compare tot HuSuVi kind of thing?


----------



## Zenvota

motorwayne said:


> Hey how does fongaudio software compare tot HuSuVi kind of thing?


Two of Out of Your Head's presets are on hesuvi.  Every time I've tried hesuvi though I've felt that OOYH sounds much much better.  I believe it may have to do with the way hesuvi captures the presets, and possibly the actual processing engines themselves.


----------



## motorwayne

Sounds like the Sound BlasterX AE-9 might be quite an interesting soundcard if Ryan's indications are anything to go on.


----------



## hifinoob005

How does Waves NX handle 4 source audio, specifically GTA 5.
This looks like 4.0:

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1...g.......0i24.m6s4BvvwKvs#imgrc=OUgpGDs3VbR_0M:


----------



## Lausilxn

I haven't tried Waves NX, but GTA V with HeSuVi oal_dflt.wav it does a decent job even with 5.1 channels, the virtual solutions depend on the quality of the audio mixer in-game and for the rear sound you need a sound source exactly behind

The audio mixer of apex legend is good


----------



## hifinoob005

Lausilxn said:


> I haven't tried Waves NX, but GTA V with HeSuVi oal_dflt.wav it does a decent job even with 5.1 channels, the virtual solutions depend on the quality of the audio mixer in-game and for the rear sound you need a sound source exactly behind
> 
> The audio mixer of apex legend is good



But what kind of surround sound does GTA 5 have?
Is it really 4.0 or something else.


----------



## Zenvota

hifinoob005 said:


> How does Waves NX handle 4 source audio, specifically GTA 5.


4.0 in 4.0 out


----------



## hifinoob005

Zenvota said:


> 4.0 in 4.0 out



Does NX do virtualization correctly if it's a 4.0 source?


----------



## Zenvota

hifinoob005 said:


> Does NX do virtualization correctly if it's a 4.0 source?


Yup, doesn't matter if its 2.0 4.0 or 5.1, the program will output the channels where they're supposed to be.  Just doesn't do any upmixing, which as you've seen can be a pain.  I wonder if maybe nx virtual room does upmixing? never looked into it.


----------



## Lausilxn

hifinoob005 said:


> But what kind of surround sound does GTA 5 have?
> Is it really 4.0 or something else.


GTA 5 have out 5.0 with XAudio2


----------



## hifinoob005

Lausilxn said:


> GTA 5 have out 5.0 with XAudio2



Thanks for the list, very useful.

In the link it's mentioned that some older games require for ASUS cards (Xonar DGX) DS3D GX for full audio.
Does NX need to be activated on top of GX?


----------



## Trancefreak

Does HeSuVi only simulate surround sound?
Reason is that I have all these steamgames that support EAX and I'd like to use it if possible. 
But EAX ain't surround, so thus I ask ^^


----------



## motorwayne

Anyone with skills able to tell me if the Creative Blaster AE-9 is a better board/Bits than the Titanium HD card?

Cheers


----------



## PureViewer4t1

I can't believe no one has tried Asus ROG Centurion here. If anyone has any questions about it (s)he can ask me. I use it for everything including listening to music, watching movies and of course gaming! Very satisfied with it


----------



## Avean

Anyone noticed Dolby Atmos for Headphones actually work now? Its been a long time since i tested it but the problem before it was only supported in games that specificly supported it. Also the problem was as soon as you enable it you present yourself to the game as a 2 channel device. 

But now? It still changes your speaker settings to 2 channel but in the game itself it thinks you are 7.1 now. Works in Apex Legends and Star Citizen and i love it so far. Maybe they have updated it for a newer Windows 10 or something, it has definetely changed cause it wasnt working like this before.


----------



## Glasofruix

Yup, tested it in destiny 2 and got actual virtual surround instead of echoey stereo. Also there is no more checkbox in the settings to "force" surround (which did not work in the first place). Windows sonic seems to work now too, but it gives a narrower soundstage and generates a lot more reverb. Just to be certain i've tested in borderlands 2, because destiny's sound mix is actually quite good. Titanfall 2 also shows your audio configuration and it does confirm with a nice 7.1.


----------



## Lausilxn

Dolby Atmos work with Battlefied 1 specifically game supported, But it doesn't work for me in Apex Legend or Any unsupported game which version of Dolby Acces do you have


----------



## Glasofruix

You might need to have the latest windows 10 version for that.


----------



## Avean

Lausilxn said:


> Dolby Atmos work with Battlefied 1 specifically game supported, But it doesn't work for me in Apex Legend or Any unsupported game which version of Dolby Acces do you have


Thats interesting. Dolby Access 3.0.2002.0 and Windows 10 1903 (18362.239)


----------



## hifinoob005

Avean said:


> Anyone noticed Dolby Atmos for Headphones actually work now? Its been a long time since i tested it but the problem before it was only supported in games that specificly supported it. Also the problem was as soon as you enable it you present yourself to the game as a 2 channel device.
> 
> But now? It still changes your speaker settings to 2 channel but in the game itself it thinks you are 7.1 now. Works in Apex Legends and Star Citizen and i love it so far. Maybe they have updated it for a newer Windows 10 or something, it has definetely changed cause it wasnt working like this before.



Does Dolby Atomos in Win10 decode DA signals?
Last time I checked it didn't, just another DSP.

None of the games listed above are listed in the supported games: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/categories/games.html


----------



## Avean

hifinoob005 said:


> Does Dolby Atomos in Win10 decode DA signals?
> Last time I checked it didn't, just another DSP.
> 
> None of the games listed above are listed in the supported games: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/categories/games.html


Its just an HRTF effect (Dolby Atmos for Headphones) but included in Dolby Access is also the possibility to decode Atmos streams. 
The HRTF effect does work in games not listed there so something has changed. But its weird that Microsoft is not more open in what they are doing with this, its very confusing as this has never been working before and now suddenly it does.

Tested it several times with and without. Without i just get stereo and enabling it gives me a really really good HRTF effect which is much better than the ones from Sound Blaster and even Sennheiser i feel.


----------



## hifinoob005 (Jul 22, 2019)

Avean said:


> Its just an HRTF effect (Dolby Atmos for Headphones) but included in Dolby Access is also the possibility to decode Atmos streams.
> The HRTF effect does work in games not listed there so something has changed. But its weird that Microsoft is not more open in what they are doing with this, its very confusing as this has never been working before and now suddenly it does.
> 
> Tested it several times with and without. Without i just get stereo and enabling it gives me a really really good HRTF effect which is much better than the ones from Sound Blaster and even Sennheiser i feel.



But wasn't the Dolby Atmos Windows app applying it's HRTF algorithm before? To material that does not have Atmos information, a 7.1 (8ch) audio for example, and still getting a 3D effect?

How do you know if the current HRTF effect actually decodes the Atmos information?

The only way to make sure would be to test a game that is officially supported, like Overwatch, with W10's Dolby Atmos enabled vs it disabled.
If the sound is the same it means it decodes it.

I don't think Overwatch requires the DA app in order to output the decoded DA streams, so the W10 DA app needs to be disabled.

If it does, does the app decode DA streams for other medium, i.e. movie UHD discs?


----------



## Glasofruix

hifinoob005 said:


> But wasn't the Dolby Atmos Windows app applying it's HRTF algorithm before? To material that does not have Atmos information, a 7.1 (8ch) audio for example, and still getting a 3D effect?



It was supposed to but it did not work as intended, it was seen as 2.0 by games and therefore they defaulted to stereo, which is not the case now (confirmed with titanfall 2 and nier automata which show your audio setup and never worked with DA and WS before).



hifinoob005 said:


> How do you know if the current HRTF effect actually decodes the Atmos information?



It worked with dolby atmos before, just not with games.



hifinoob005 said:


> The only way to make sure would be to test a game that is officially supported, like Overwatch, with W10's Dolby Atmos enabled vs it disabled.
> If the sound is the same it means it decodes it.
> 
> I don't think Overwatch requires the DA app in order to output the decoded DA streams, so the W10 DA app needs to be disabled.



Overwatch has dolby atmos for headphones baked in, and it works better than applying the app to a 7.1 signal. The only games i know that support dolby atmos are battlefield V & 1 and Battlefront 2, but it has nothing to do with headphones.



hifinoob005 said:


> If it does, does the app decode DA streams for other medium, i.e. movie UHD discs?



It does and it was doing it before.


----------



## hifinoob005 (Jul 22, 2019)

Glasofruix said:


> It was supposed to but it did not work as intended, it was seen as 2.0 by games and therefore they defaulted to stereo, which is not the case now (confirmed with titanfall 2 and nier automata which show your audio setup and never worked with DA and WS before).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just because the settings in the game change from 2.0 does not mean it's decoding the Atmos information.

Maybe I have outdated information, but from what knew the Win10 Atmos decoder had very limited functionality: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=114861.0

_My understanding of the situation now is that:_

_Atmos via Media Center only works when bitstreaming to an HDMI device, and since MC does not identify Atmos tracks you have to bitstream all TrueHD tracks._
_Media Center's TrueHD decoding does not pass through Atmos data._
_Windows 10 has a built-in decoder for Atmos content that works with DAfH, but it can only decode Atmos inside an E-AC3 track. It cannot decode TrueHD+Atmos, and there's no way to get it working with Media Center even for content which uses E-AC3. You would have to use the built-in "Films & TV" app._
_Hopefully someone can figure out how to use the built-in decoder with other applications, even if it's limited to E-AC3.
E-AC3 tracks are mostly used with streaming services rather than Blu-ray discs though.
_
How can you confirm that the Atmos information is actually being decoded, in a game or a movie audio?


----------



## nraymond

Glasofruix said:


> Overwatch has dolby atmos for headphones baked in, and it works better than applying the app to a 7.1 signal. The only games i know that support dolby atmos are battlefield V & 1 and Battlefront 2, but it has nothing to do with headphones.



So I play a lot of Overwatch, and can speak to that. The Dolby Atmos in Overwatch is internal to the game and only work properly with 2.0 (stereo) headphone outputs. The way it works is that the game does object-based (3D positional, including elevation) audio in the game engine and has a Dolby Atmos HRTF integrated such that it can create a sphere of sound for headphones and output that over two channel headphone output. There's no Atmos-encoded digital stream or anything like that coming out of the game. Upside is that this works with most any headphones. Downside is that this will not work properly with Waves NX headphones that do head tracking and positional audio themselves, such as the 1More Spearhead VRX (which I have) or Audeze Mobius, since those require a 5.1 or 7.1 multichannel output to do positional audio (and do that by presenting themselves as USB multichannel sound devices to the host computer). 5.1 and 7.1 audio on PC is audio all on the same plane (flat), there are no elevation speakers. So PC games that output at best 5.1 or 7.1 can't output sound with elevation to speakers. The only way to get sound output of speakers with elevation is via HDMI with an encoded Atmos audio stream from games that specifically support it. I know of no way to get an encoded Atmos stream from HDMI into Waves NX headphones, but it would be cool if you could, because then you could have head tracking positional audio with elevation! Right now, I have to choose - do I want Overwatch with Atmos for headphones and get elevation, or do I choose to loose elevation and gain head tracking by switching to 7.1 (non-headphone) output in Overwatch and using Waves NX built in to the Spearhead VRX? I have chosen to give up on elevation because I've found positional head tracking more useful overall when playing.

Now I don't have an Atmos-capable receiver, but I believe that if you had one hooked up to a PC via HDMI and were playing an Atmos game (like Battlefield V and Battelfront 2) and if you were to plug in headphones into the headphone jack on the receiver, the receiver would then apply an Atmos (or possibly other user-chosen, depending on receiver model) HRTF to the decoded Atmos stream in the receiver in order to create a virtual surround sound over headphone experience that includes elevation (and could likely also apply an HRTF in the receiver to any 5.1 or 7.1 stream coming over HDMI, similar to what Dolby Atmos software pack is supposed to do in Windows 10), though of course those 5.1 and 7.1 streams wouldn't contain elevation.

On the PC side, there are Creative EAX and OpenAL titles which I believe have object-based 3D sound engines which, when combined with a Creative card and ALchemy (for EAX backward compatibility via some DLLs deposited in the game executable's directory to intercept legacy Direct3D audio calls and re-route them to Creative's EAX engine directly) or Creative's OpenAL binaries (installed with SoundBlaster drivers) will retain elevation information and then if the Windows speaker configuration is set to 5.1 or 7.1 and a game is set to 5.1 and 7.1 and supports some level of EAX or Creative's proprietary implementation of OpenAL, and the SoundBlaster control panel is set to output to headphones, you can get a Creative-proprietary HRTF that includes elevation information from 3D positional audio in a game engine (much like Overwatch's Dolby Atmos for headphones). No way to use Waves NX head tracking in this scenario, though.

Also worth noting is that some games have baked in binaural/HRTF audio into two channel sound and expect you (and try to warn you) to play them in 2.0 headphone mode, because otherwise you could end up applying an HRTF to sound that already has an HRTF, that won't be good. An example of this is Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice (which also means there is no way to play Hellblade, or other games that bake in HRTFs, with Waves NX head tracking positional audio heapdhones).


----------



## Glasofruix

hifinoob005 said:


> Just because the settings in the game change from 2.0 does not mean it's decoding the Atmos information.



There is no "atmos information" to decode, since there are no games that supply it in the first place (but movies do), no, not even Overwatch. What dolby atmos for headphones is supposed to do is to take whatever surround information is available to it and turn it into HRTF stereo, which it wasn't doing until now (except for sound tracks on legally...cough...bought blu rays). And when a game shows "2.0" it means it does not supply surround.



hifinoob005 said:


> _Atmos via Media Center only works when bitstreaming to an HDMI device, and since MC does not identify Atmos tracks you have to bitstream all TrueHD tracks._
> _Media Center's TrueHD decoding does not pass through Atmos data._
> _Windows 10 has a built-in decoder for Atmos content that works with DAfH, but it can only decode Atmos inside an E-AC3 track. It cannot decode TrueHD+Atmos, and there's no way to get it working with Media Center even for content which uses E-AC3. You would have to use the built-in "Films & TV" app._
> _Hopefully someone can figure out how to use the built-in decoder with other applications, even if it's limited to E-AC3.
> E-AC3 tracks are mostly used with streaming services rather than Blu-ray discs though._



And this is irrelevant because dolby atmos for headphones is not supposed to act as a media player decoder for whatever exterior devices you're trying to use, except for good ol' headphones as a HRTF algorithm for virtual surround.



hifinoob005 said:


> How can you confirm that the Atmos information is actually being decoded, in a game or a movie audio?



Again, no games supply atmos information outside of BF series and then it only works over hdmi with home theater typ setup, HOWEVER move tracks do go through the algorithm.

You're confusing dolby atmos with dolby atmos for headphones, which are different beasts and not made for the same purposes.


----------



## Zenvota

Glasofruix said:


> And this is irrelevant because dolby atmos for headphones is not supposed to act as a media player decoder for whatever exterior devices you're trying to use, except for good ol' headphones as a HRTF algorithm for virtual surround.


@hifinoob005 is correct though, per dolby, atmos for headphones does decode atmos tracks the ways he listed, "Any game, movie, Netflix show, etc. that is labeled "Dolby Atmos" will achieve the spatialization effect including height virtualization with Dolby Atmos for Headphones.  Right now BluRays cannot virtualize the heights but there is some additional upmixing for an overall enhanced sound."


----------



## hifinoob005

Glasofruix said:


> There is no "atmos information" to decode, since there are no games that supply it in the first place (but movies do), no, not even Overwatch. What dolby atmos for headphones is supposed to do is to take whatever surround information is available to it and turn it into HRTF stereo, which it wasn't doing until now (except for sound tracks on legally...cough...bought blu rays). And when a game shows "2.0" it means it does not supply surround.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm referring to Dolby Atmos for Headphones.

If I take an UHD disc with a soundtrack that has Atmos included, can DAfH virtualize with the Atmos information? The format is not Dolby Digital Plus (E AC-3).
Not via external solution, but internal. Xonar sound card to headphones via analog.


----------



## nraymond

hifinoob005 said:


> I'm referring to Dolby Atmos for Headphones.
> 
> If I take an UHD disc with a soundtrack that has Atmos included, can DAfH virtualize with the Atmos information? The format is not Dolby Digital Plus (E AC-3).
> Not via external solution, but internal. Xonar sound card to headphones via analog.



My research thus far into UHD disc playback indicates that the only official way to play back UHD discs is via PowerDVD, and the hardware requirements are very narrow due to industry requirements for DRM:

https://www.cyberlink.com/support/faq-content.do?id=19144

PowerDVD cannot downmix or interact with any Atmos or DTS:X content. It can bitstream output it to a receiver, and that works reasonably reliably in PowerDVD 18 (though if you change playback media from say, DVD to Blu-Ray you typically have to go back into the PowerDVD preferences and re-select bitstream for audio output). I've read user complaints/reports that PowerDVD 19 does not reliably bitstream Atmos from UHD discs (but does continue to work for Blu-Ray). I don't have a UHD drive and don't have an Atmos capable receiver so I haven't tested any of this, and have just been researching in advance of future purchases... hopefully they'll fix it.

But none of that will get you Atmos for headphones, i.e. an HRTF that includes the height information as part of the sound field. You'd need to output the bitstream Atmos audio to a receiver via HDMI from a PC and then plug headphones into that, or get a Smyth A16 Realiser (which runs a few $k):

https://smyth-research.com/

I don't think any of the Dolby Access stuff for Windows has the ability to interact with a bitstream of Atmos coming off a UHD disc, since all that DRM the movie industry wraps the UHD disc in (why PowerDVD has such narrow hardware support) prevents access to that stream in Windows. You'd have to play a non-Atmos fallback stream rendered into uncompressed multichannel audio and loose the elevation information for any hope of feeding it into any sort of HRTF in Windows or to a USB connected audio device that applies it's own HRTF. At least if you keep the DRM intact. If you strip off the DRM I have no idea if you could do more with it... maybe if you purchased professional surround sound mastering software like the Dolby Media Producer Suite you could play it back on PC then with an HRTF with height information preserved, who knows:

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/content-creation/products/dolby-media-producer-suite.html


----------



## hifinoob005 (Jul 24, 2019)

nraymond said:


> My research thus far into UHD disc playback indicates that the only official way to play back UHD discs is via PowerDVD, and the hardware requirements are very narrow due to industry requirements for DRM:
> 
> https://www.cyberlink.com/support/faq-content.do?id=19144
> 
> ...



Apparently it's possible via MakeMKV with this method:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-n...ng-uhd-4k-discs-makemkv-instructions-how.html

Also this: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/194-3d-tech-talk/2814033-help-converting-3d-blu-ray-mkv.html

In this case, how would it be possible to decode the Atmos information?

There are a few test links if anyone can try it out:
Dolby Digital Plus based Atmos files :- https://download.dolby.com/us/en/test-tones/dolby-atmos-trailer_leaf_1080.mp4
https://download.dolby.com/us/en/test-tones/dolby-test-tones_9_1_6.mp4
https://download.dolby.com/us/en/test-tones/dolby-atmos-trailer_amaze_1080.mp4
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-trailers.html
Dolby TrueHD based Atmos files :- https://thedigitaltheater.wetransfe...17b3f4e3f302e56f01e8cd7b20160427225823/1d9d59
https://thedigitaltheater.wetransfe...7892745290636cc9434fb48920160427225625/4c5be4
https://thedigitaltheater.com/dolby-trailers/


----------



## hifinoob005 (Jul 30, 2019)

Tried to install Dolby Atmos for Headphones (DAfH), but it conflicted with Waves NX and OOYH. Disabling these 2 did not work. I have a dual boot system with the same OS, Win10x64 1903(18362.239). The second one does not have NX or OOYH and managed to install DAfH there.

When activating DAfH it set the system's audio to 2 channels and 16 bit 48Khz mode.
Tested with Xonar DGX (UNI drivers), Sennheiser HD380 Pro via headphone jack (analog out). The Xonar has Dolby Headphone incorporated.
Played files in Windows Media Player, MPC HC(x86) + LAV filters (0.74.1), Edge browser.

According to this ticket (https://sourceforge.net/p/mpcbe/tickets/450/?limit=25) and other info, TrueHD+Atmos cannot be decoded by Windows. Only Dolby Digial Plus (DD+) + Atmos on WMP and Edge (with Netflix only?).

Used Edge to listen to these 3 demos and some multi channel music (96Khz):
https://download.dolby.com/us/en/test-tones/dolby-test-tones_9_1_6.mp4
https://download.dolby.com/us/en/test-tones/dolby-atmos-trailer_amaze_1080.mp4
https://download.dolby.com/us/en/test-tones/dolby-atmos-trailer_leaf_1080.mp4

Downloaded the demos above (which are DD+ with Atmos), as well as the DD+ (without Atmos) and TrueHD + Atmos versions of Amaze and Leaf. Checked with Media Info that the files have Atmos.
Could not find other versions of Dolby Test Tones 9_1_6:
https://thedigitaltheater.com/dolby-trailers/

The Dolby Test Tones 9_1_6 demo:
LAV Audio sent the 6 Atmos ceiling speaker sounds in this manner:
First (from the TV wall) Left -L C
First (from the TV wall) Right -R
Second (from the TV wall) Left -BL
Second (from the TV wall) RIght -BR
Third (from the TV wall) Left -BL
Third (from the TV wall) Right -BL BR

The 2nd (from the TV wall) Right and Lleft ground speakers  - L and BL, R and RL respectively.
The last 2 Right and Left were BL and BR.

Opened in 3 instances at once, Edge, MPC HC and WMP.
Listened to the (Dolby Test Tones 9_1_6) speaker sounds in rotation, but specifically the farthest (from the TV wall) Right speaker (on the floor), then the 1st ceiling Left speaker.
The last floor speaker sounded the same on all 3 players. The 1st ceiling Left sounded the same in MPC HC and Edge, but different in WMP. Positioning wise there was not much of a difference. I could not tell that the Atmos speakers were in the ceiling.

In the 2nd demo, Amaze, at about the 0:24s mark there is a spacial sound made by an insect. Listened on the 3 players (the DD+ and Atmos version of Amaze). Also listened to DD+ without Atmos version, as well as the TrueHD + Atmos versions.
Could not tell the difference between the 5 instances. There was no identifiable vertical sound unique to the Atmos versions. Either it's too subtle, incorrectly mixed, DAfH and the playing software was not working (correctly or DAfH can't do it), or my headphones + sound card don't have the soundstage or the capability for detailed 3D audio.

Same with the Leaf demo.
A 4th demo, Nature's Fury, was only available in DD+ with Atmos, and TrueHD+Atmos. Same.
When installing DAfH it takes you to a demos page (tried with FF and Edge), but no vertical sound detail:
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-trailers.html

Compared to Dolby Headphone (DH1 and DH2) and Waves NX, DAfH is without reverberations, sounds dry and not spacial. With DH and NX it sound's like an actual room, while DAfH dosen't.


----------



## hifinoob005

Pics:


----------



## Avean

hifinoob005 said:


> Tried to install Dolby Atmos for Headphones (DAfH), but it conflicted with Waves NX and OOYH. Disabling these 2 did not work. I have a dual boot system with the same OS, Win10x64 1903(18362.239). The second one does not have NX or OOYH and managed to install DAfH there.
> 
> When activating DAfH it set the system's audio to 2 channels and 16 bit 48Khz mode.
> Tested with Xonar DGX (UNI drivers), Sennheiser HD380 Pro via headphone jack (analog out). The Xonar has Dolby Headphone incorporated.
> ...



Not sure if i understand what you wrote here. Did you just enable Dolby Atmos for Headphones on an Atmos enabled surround system? Its for headphones and works good in games and much better than DH and DH2 which adds tons of reverb sound. It should sound very spatial but then again it depends on your headset. Im using a HD700 which has a great soundstage.


----------



## hifinoob005 (Jul 30, 2019)

Avean said:


> Not sure if i understand what you wrote here. Did you just enable Dolby Atmos for Headphones on an Atmos enabled surround system? Its for headphones and works good in games and much better than DH and DH2 which adds tons of reverb sound. It should sound very spatial but then again it depends on your headset. Im using a HD700 which has a great soundstage.



Don't have an Atmos capable surround system, just installed _Dolby Atmos for Headphones_ from the Windows app store.

DAfH does work as a DSP, it virtualizes sound correctly.

The question is not if DAfH can virtualize multi channel audio, it's if it decode Atmos signals.

According to this post (https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones...apparently_dolby_atmos_for_headphone_may_not/) in order for the player to decode an Atmos signal it needs to support Media Foundation. WMP supports it, but I'm not aware of any other player that does. I'll need to do more research.
Can you tell the difference of an DD+ with Atmos file being played on WMP vs. MPC HC, or another player?

As far as the quality of the virtualization that DAfH does, it's a subjective matter.


----------



## hifinoob005 (Aug 5, 2019)

Don't remember if I tested or not, but WMP (x84/x64) does not play any DTS/DTS HD MA (whatever number of channels), or TrueHD.
Doing a google search indicates that there seems to be some issues, but haven't delved too much into it.

There are codecs for Media Foundation, but they seem to be for versions of windows that didn't have them in the first place:
https://www.codecguide.com/windows_media_codecs.htm
https://www.codecguide.com/faq_wmp.htm
https://support.acquiredigital.com/hc/en-us/articles/360003318953-K-Lite-Codec-Tweak-Tool-
In any case, they are used only by WMP.

Watched the first episode of Our Planet on Netflix. At around 17:34 there seems to be some more spacial sounding effects, but not distinct. Otherwise, no identifiable vertical sounds.

Some music has been released in Atmos TrueHD, R.E.M and INXS:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=296633&page=2


----------



## nraymond

hifinoob005 said:


> Some music has been released in Atmos TrueHD, R.E.M and INXS:
> https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=296633&page=2



REM, Kraftwerk, BBC Earth... there are a number of Blu-Ray audio discs with Atmos tracks that I own that I'd love to hear on headphones. I don't have an Atmos receiver though, and extracting the Blu-Rays to MKV won't help me without one as far as I know because you need a playback app built with Windows Media Foundation (not legacy DirectShow), and I think all the open source solutions are DirectShow solutions (I own CyberLink PowerDVD, which is commercial, and no Atmos decoding comes with it, just pass-through support). Only Microsoft "Universal" apps from their app store are built with Media Foundation, so we're talking streaming playback of media to get Atmos decoded on a PC, because there are no disc-playback solutions that are built with Media Foundation (so no access to Atmos decoders). Also there are no open-source Atmos decoders, unlike TrueHD and DTS-HD MA, which have open-source solutions. Atmos is part of a TrueHD stream, and the Atmos portion is not decoded by anything that doesn't understand it (so the stream remains 5.1/7.1 to a non-Atmos decoder). So I could extract my Atmos music Blu-Rays to MKV, but I'd still have to bitstream the TrueHD track out of my PC via HDMI to a receiver or other external device with Atmos support in that device to decode the Atmos part (and then apply an HRTF to hear it on headphones). Which is super-annoying, IMO. Heck, I would even buy a portable Blu-Ray audio player in a heartbeat if I could plug in headphones and hear Dolby Atmos for headphones audio from a disc! Right now I just have Atmos music discs gathering dust until I upgrade my receiver (which will happen someday, but since I'm the only one in my family that cares much about audio, it doesn't have funding priority)... I won't hold my breath that CyberLink will add Atmos support anytime soon.


----------



## Alphasoixante

Can someone please recommend a USB DAC/Amp with microphone input under $200 USD that I can use with my laptop? My laptop is the Nitro 5 (if it matters). Thanks very much.


----------



## Inspectre

What does everyone think of the Valve Index?  I'm not a big VR fan, but the deep dive sound interesting, and mentioned immersion as a top priority, so it caught my attention.

https://www.valvesoftware.com/en/index/deep-dive/ear-speakers


----------



## Zenvota

Inspectre said:


> What does everyone think of the Valve Index?  I'm not a big VR fan, but the deep dive sound interesting, and mentioned immersion as a top priority, so it caught my attention.
> 
> https://www.valvesoftware.com/en/index/deep-dive/ear-speakers


BMRs!  Thats cool, I dont know of any headphones that use bmrs, let alone earspeakers.  Thats all very true about how they radiate sound and the lack of breakup at high frequencies.  Theyre generally more affordable/lighter, etc.


----------



## Inspectre

Where are BMRs used?  I'd never heard of them before this. 
The Valve Index is 1k... it'd be nice if they could separate the VR from the headset, super interested to try it one day.


----------



## Zenvota

Inspectre said:


> Where are BMRs used?



http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/BMR Philharmonitor.html

https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/speakers/aeromax-6


----------



## Inspectre

Woah, looks like you can't try BMRs on the cheap, at least.  I guess it's going on the wishlist.


----------



## Zenvota

Inspectre said:


> Woah, looks like you can't try BMRs on the cheap, at least.  I guess it's going on the wishlist.


https://www.parts-express.com/tecto...MI99fY49O55AIVg4nICh36zQG1EAQYAiABEgK_4PD_BwE


----------



## Inspectre

Eheh, I don't suppose they make a complete unit for around 10x that price?  I know some people build their own systems, but I have no faith in my abilities as a loudspeaker technician.


----------



## PROblemdetected

Hi mates!

Im going to pick a bargain of Asus Xonar u7, what model do u recomend: the original one or the mk2?


----------



## ricardovix (Oct 28, 2019)

Guys, I'm a owner of a Sennheiser HD 598 headphone and a Creative Sound Blaster Titanium X-FI HD soundcard and I'm looking for upgrade both (*for gaming*).

Which headphone do you suggest to upgrade from a HD 598? And soundcard? A Creative Sound Blaster AE-5 will be a good upgrade or doesn't worth it?

I'm looking for better soundstage to better hear the "footsteps" on FPS, but I don't want a poor sound for other gamings too.

Regards,

Ricardo


----------



## PurpleAngel

ricardovix said:


> Guys, I'm a owner of a Sennheiser HD 598 headphone and a Creative Sound Blaster Titanium X-FI HD sound card and I'm looking for upgrade both (*for gaming*).
> Which headphone do you suggest to upgrade from a HD 598? And soundcard? A Creative Sound Blaster AE-5 will be a good upgrade or doesn't worth it?
> I'm looking for better soundstage to better hear the "footsteps" on FPS, but I don't want a poor sound for other gamings too.
> Regards, Ricardo


The Sennheiser HD598 seem to get positive feedback for FPS gaming.
The Ti-HD's headphone jack has a 35-Ohm output impedance, which means it might be causing the 50-Ohm HD598 to have a bloated (louder, less detailed) bass (poor damping control).
The AE-5's headphone jack has a 1-Ohm output impedance, which offers better damping control for 50-Ohm headphones (HD598).
Creative Labas claims the scout mode on the AE-5 helps to hear footsteps.


----------



## Prpnnightmare

Hi All,

Just looking for confirmation that I have my X-Fi Titanium HD configured correctly for the best compatibility with API's while gaming.

I have it setup as below:

- Game Mode
- Control Panel set to Headphones with Optimize speaker output for headphones
- Windows Sound Control Panel set to 5.1 Surround
- X-Fi CMSS-3D Disabled

When playing games, should I ALWAYS be enabling X-Fi CMSS-3D? As an example, I've just started playing RDR2, which lets me set the in-game audio to 5.1. Should I be enabling X-Fi CMSS-3D here?


----------



## mindbomb

Prpnnightmare said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Just looking for confirmation that I have my X-Fi Titanium HD configured correctly for the best compatibility with API's while gaming.
> 
> ...



Yea, you would need cmss 3d to convert the 5.1 into a format optimal for headphones.


----------



## AveAlpha

Hi, I know that many of you have probably seen hundreds of posts like mine and some of you may be tired of them. I understand but I live in a country where there's simply no way for me to test 99% of audiophile headphones, and I really want to improve my gaming experience and simply don't want to make a mistake. I'd appreciate any help 

For starters I should mention the most important details. My budget is ~$220/€200/£175 for the headphones alone. I currently do not own any amp but I don't mind buying one later on if it will make the headphones that much better, however I'm gonna be honest, I'm not here to make this my lifetime hobby, I just want a pleasant experience so not buying an amp if not required would be nice too.

Here's a breakdown of my activities that I use headphones for :

PC Gaming (80%) (However, it would be a nice addition if the headphones could work with consoles too)

Single Player games (60%)
Multiplayer or competitive shooter games (20%)

Movies or Series (15%)
Music (5%)
All of that is being done inside my room, I do not use headphones outside.

As you can see I'm mostly a gamer that likes to fiddle with competitive shooters from time to time but ultimately I seek Single Player immersion and the so called "fun" aspect as I've heard. Footsteps are important for me but it's not a life or death situation. I watch movies from time to time on my PC and rarely listen to music. I do occasionally play single player games on consoles.

So here I am, going through various reviews, websites, forums etc. for the last 3 days reading words that I simply do not understand as I've never been into audio before. Like I said, this will probably not become my hobby but I'm interested, I want proper cans.
I've researched plenty of audiophile headphones that are good for gaming but I just can't decide, there's always something somewhere written about each that turns me away.

Philips Fidelio X2HR - These are on top of my list for a reason, they have come down in price DRAMATICALLY over the last year and I've been waiting for Black Friday to pick them up from Amazon UK. However, there's as many reviews that praise them as there are that completely crap all over them. I heard they're "fun" but grainy (I have no idea what that means) and overall not great for competitive.

Beyerdynamic DT(770/880/990) - I've heard people pick one and complain about the other two so I've no idea which one is good anymore.

AKG K712 Pro - I heard many good things about them, apparently just as "fun" as the Fidelio's, however I heard the AKG to have a flimsy design,

Sennheiser HD600/650/HD6XX - I read the soundstage isn't as great as Fidelio's and that they need a good amp.

Sennheiser HD598 - A bit too much on the competitive side of things and not enough on "fun" from what I read.
Of course there's probably plenty missing here, other AKG models etc. but you get the idea. Ultimately I'm leaning towards either the Fidelio X2HR which I could turn into wireless if I wanted to with the FiiO BTR3 or AKG K712 Pro but those would probably be more expensive even on black Friday and I suppose they wouldn't be that great if turned into wireless as I believe they need an amp if I understand correctly.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

P.S. I've seeked help in Mad Lust's thread and was eager to go with Fidelio's after people pointed me in that direction in that thread but since then I read other reviews etc etc and now I'm just lost so I thought I'd ask here.


----------



## PurpleAngel

What is the make and model of your PC's motherboard?
Check out the Soundmagic HP200 headphones, they are like a combo of the DT880 & DT990 (best parts of each)


----------



## PurpleAngel

ricardovix said:


> Guys, I'm a owner of a Sennheiser HD 598 headphone and a Creative Sound Blaster Titanium X-FI HD sound card and I'm looking for upgrade both (*for gaming*).
> Which headphone do you suggest to upgrade from a HD 598? And soundcard? A Creative Sound Blaster AE-5 will be a good upgrade or doesn't worth it?
> I'm looking for better soundstage to better hear the "footsteps" on FPS, but I don't want a poor sound for other gamings too.
> Regards, Ricardo


Disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS.
Get a Schiit Magni or JDS Atom headphones amplifier and connect it to the TI-HD (Titanium-HD) line-output (RCA) jacks.
See if that improves the HD598 (it should at least a little).


----------



## Prpnnightmare (Nov 11, 2019)

mindbomb said:


> Yea, you would need cmss 3d to convert the 5.1 into a format optimal for headphones.



Thanks for this, it's working great so far. My assumption here is that if a game has headphone support with it's own 3D engine (eg. CSGO) then I can use this with, despite having the device set to 5.1 in Windows.

EDIT: As an aside, I wish there was a better way of knowing what games have surround / 3D / Binaural support.


----------



## AveAlpha

PurpleAngel said:


> What is the make and model of your PC's motherboard?
> Check out the Soundmagic HP200 headphones, they are like a combo of the DT880 & DT990 (best parts of each)


Sorry, did you mean me? I can't figure out if that was to my post  Ignore if not  Mobo is Asus Strix Z270F Gaming. I don't really know if it's aptX compatible (For Wireless Fidelio X2) but I don't mind upgrading it, I'll be upgrading my CPU anyway. As for the HP200, I couldn't find that much on it to be honest, they seem good as far as I can tell. I wonder if they'd be as good as the Fidelio's @£109 (about ~$140). I'm also looking into the AKG712 Pro but they'd need a good amp as far as I know so that would limit the wireless modification for me.


----------



## Blotto80

Has anyone tried the DTS:X Headphone available in Win10 yet? I’ve been using it on an insider build for a few months now and I have to say I’m pretty happy with it. It sounds better than the Atmos Headphone and give a great sense of surround without the hassle of HeSuVi. I was playing Jedi Fallen Order last night and one of the early scenes has you on a train with conversations going on around you and the sense of depth was some of the best I’ve heard. 
It also has a selection of headphones with specific EQ curves built in. It could use some more as it was missing both the HD800S and Focal Clear so I’m left using the “generic over ear” setting.


----------



## greyforest

Hi all, could use some suggestion here.

Currently using optical output of creative ae-5 to feed my dac&amp, ae-5 allows play mix to digital out so i have been utilizing the dsp it had for gaming and movies for a while.

I recommend my friends to get möbius for gaming and he did, after I tried it. Have to say it’s the best virtual 7.1 i have ever encountered. Realize it is powered by wavesnx so I downloaded the software for a 30 day trials, sounded great but however it is using 10% of the cpu(win10 64 1909 9900k 32g) all the time. Really made it not suitable for gaming.

Therefore i wish to find some sort of alternative to replace ae-5, with similar digital output capacity and effectiveness like wavesnx. 

Thank you


----------



## greyforest

ricardovix said:


> Guys, I'm a owner of a Sennheiser HD 598 headphone and a Creative Sound Blaster Titanium X-FI HD soundcard and I'm looking for upgrade both (*for gaming*).
> 
> Which headphone do you suggest to upgrade from a HD 598? And soundcard? A Creative Sound Blaster AE-5 will be a good upgrade or doesn't worth it?
> 
> ...



If you intended to go for next gen creative sound card i would recommend you avoid ae-5 and go for ae-9. The amp stage on Ae-7 & ae-9 is league way better. But to be honest i think you should get an external amp first. Dac wise ae-5 and ae-7&9 is not that much of difference. And even they had better amp stage than ae-5 it is still no better than an external amp like thx789 or something similar.


----------



## hifinoob005

Will Waves NX still work with an external DAC, either via USB or the Xonar DGX's digital out?
I use a lot of multichannel audio. In the Xonar and OS 7.1 (8 speakers) are set. 
Will the audio go first to Waves NX which will convert it to a two channel audio?


----------



## greyforest

hifinoob005 said:


> Will Waves NX still work with an external DAC, either via USB or the Xonar DGX's digital out?
> I use a lot of multichannel audio. In the Xonar and OS 7.1 (8 speakers) are set.
> Will the audio go first to Waves NX which will convert it to a two channel audio?



it works with and spdif transmission， but the windows  version only converts 2.1 to 2.1 signals. It does not support higher than 2.1 signals. But seems like möbius version of it supports 8 channel.


----------



## PurpleAngel

hifinoob005 said:


> Will Waves NX still work with an external DAC, either via USB or the Xonar DGX's digital out?
> I use a lot of multichannel audio. In the Xonar and OS 7.1 (8 speakers) are set.
> Will the audio go first to Waves NX which will convert it to a two channel audio?


I'm fairly sure the Wave NX will output audio thru both USB and the Xonar DGX's S/PDIF optical port.


----------



## hifinoob005

greyforest said:


> it works with and spdif transmission， but the windows  version only converts 2.1 to 2.1 signals. It does not support higher than 2.1 signals. But seems like möbius version of it supports 8 channel.



Doesn't the Windows NX version accept 6 or 8 channels and mix it in 2.0?



PurpleAngel said:


> I'm fairly sure the Wave NX will output audio thru both USB and the Xonar DGX's S/PDIF optical port.



In the Xonar DGX's menu the sampling rate can be switched, can for example the DAC iFi Audio Nano IDSD Black Label do the same?

What about the microphone on the Xonar, can it be used at the same time as an USB audio card/DAC?


----------



## Monstieur (Nov 26, 2019)

Waves Nx uses a virtual playback device IIRC. While it will work with any sound card / DAC, I would avoid such software solutions and just get an Audeze Mobius with integrated Waves Nx for head tracking. Even with my Mobius I have ultimately disabled its 3D & head tracking and just use Windows' Spatial Sound as an increasing number of games support Spatial Sound. I purchased both DTS Headphone:X and Dolby Atmos for Headphones and I prefer one over the other depending on the title.

The latest build of MPC-BE now supports 7.1-channel output when Spatial Sound is enabled. E-AC-3 Atmos content is only supported on Media Foundation players like Windows Media Player and UWP apps, and it only seems to render extra channels when used with the Dolby Atmos for Headphones renderer. When playing E-AC-3 Atmos content with DTS Headphone:X, the 9.1.6 channels are flattened to 5.1 channels.

DTS Headphone:X also has correction profiles for many headphone models to provide the most accurate HRTF.

If you don't care about object-based audio, then the Mobius' 7.1-channel mode with 3D on is the most realistic of them all.

If you have a sound card that exposes a 7.1-channel playback device, you can just use Equalizer APO to apply whatever HRTF you want for free and output stereo for headphones. This is better than using a virtual playback device.


----------



## hifinoob005

Monstieur said:


> Waves Nx uses a virtual playback device IIRC. While it will work with any sound card / DAC, I would avoid such software solutions and just get an Audeze Mobius with integrated Waves Nx for head tracking. Even with my Mobius I have ultimately disabled its 3D & head tracking and just use Windows' Spatial Sound as an increasing number of games support Spatial Sound. I purchased both DTS Headphone:X and Dolby Atmos for Headphones and I prefer one over the other depending on the title.
> 
> The latest build of MPC-HC now supports 7.1-channel output when Spatial Sound is enabled. E-AC-3 Atmos content is only supported on Media Foundation players like Windows Media Player and UWP apps, and it only seems to render extra channels when used with the Dolby Atmos for Headphones renderer. When playing E-AC-3 Atmos content with DTS Headphone:X, the 9.1.6 channels are flattened to 5.1 channels.
> 
> ...



Did not like how the Mobius sounded.

What is Windows Spacial Sound? Windows Sonic?
I tested most of the HRTF's except for DTS H:X. Tested OOYH, but not with a good setup.
NX was best for me.

MPC with LAV has worked with multi channel output for some time. Works fine with NX.

I don't want to change Waves NX, just want to use it with a DAC. 
Can a sample rate be changed in a DAC?


----------



## Monstieur (Nov 26, 2019)

hifinoob005 said:


> Did not like how the Mobius sounded.
> 
> What is Windows Spacial Sound? Windows Sonic?
> I tested most of the HRTF's except for DTS H:X. Tested OOYH, but not with a good setup.
> ...


The Mobius uses Waves Nx with different defaults (Room Ambience set to 35 vs 17).

Windows Sonic gives true object-based audio in games that support it, and 7.1 channels in others. It can either downmix for headphones using a HRTF renderer like Dolby Atmos for Headphones / DTS Headphone:X, or output an Atmos bitstream over HDMI for an AVR. The API used by games is called Spatial Sound. It didn't work with MPC-BE because when using headphones the system mix format is still reported as 2-channel. MPC-BE has been updated to use the best supported format such as 7.1 channels instead of the mix format. In older sound card / virtual playback device based HRTF soflutions, the mix format is 7.1 channels. This works with older applications but it will never support object-based audio.

Given that Windows Sonic is the future for Xbox and PC games going forward, 7.1-channel HRTFs are not worth investing in. Just buy one of the Spatial Sound renderers from the Microsoft Store and use them with any headphones. You may have a better experience with DTS Headphone:X as it has profiles for many headphone models. Spatial Sound only works on surround streams and ignore stereo streams, so applications like stereo music players will not be affected. You can play music in the background while running a game, and the HRTF will apply only to the game stream.

You can set the DAC to whatever sample rates it exposes from the playback device settings. Spatial Sound only works at 16-bit / 24-bit 48 kHz.


----------



## hifinoob005

Monstieur said:


> The Mobius uses Waves Nx with different defaults (Room Ambience set to 35 vs 17).
> 
> Windows Sonic gives true object-based audio in games that support it, and 7.1 channels in others. It can either downmix for headphones using a HRTF renderer like Dolby Atmos for Headphones / DTS Headphone:X, or output an Atmos bitstream over HDMI for an AVR. The API used by games is called Spatial Sound. It didn't work with MPC-BE because when using headphones the system mix format is still reported as 2-channel. MPC-BE has been updated to use the best supported format such as 7.1 channels instead of the mix format. In older sound card / virtual playback device based HRTF soflutions, the mix format is 7.1 channels. This works with older applications but it will never support object-based audio.
> 
> ...



Isn't Windows Sonic free?

I tried Sonic and Atmos, I did not like the way they sounded. Wanted a musical HRTF more than an accurate spacial point virtualizer, and NX was the best out of those tested.

Is it MPC BE or HC that was updated? 

I remember when selecting Sonic the OS and Xonar channel configuration changed to 2.0. I'm not sure how this would have been changed from MPC, it's Windows thing. And the latest MPC has LAV included, so that is what is handling the audio. There hasn't been an update to LAV since March.
Can't remember what happened to the audio channels when selecting Atmos.


----------



## Monstieur (Nov 26, 2019)

hifinoob005 said:


> Isn't Windows Sonic free?
> 
> I tried Sonic and Atmos, I did not like the way they sounded. Wanted a musical HRTF more than an accurate spacial point virtualizer, and NX was the best out of those tested.
> 
> ...


In my opinion, Windows Sonic < Dolby Atmos for Headphones < DTS Headphone:X.
DTS has Balanced and Spacious settings which make a big difference - try the trial. Atmos also has several settings including an accuracy mode which is the default.
When you enable Spatial Sound (with any headphone renderer), the speaker layout gets changed to 2-channel, so apps must be updated to detect that update 7.1-channel formats are still available using the correct API.

MPC-HC is dead. MPC-BE is actively developed and is the way to go. It's been updated to use the correct API and output 7.1-channel even when Spatial Sound is enabled and the speaker layout reports 2-channel. The final audio output is handled by MPC Audio Renderer, not LAV Filters. LAV Filters always decodes to multi-channel but the renderer will downmix the audio again if not updated.

I still think it's is mistake to limit yourself to 7.1 channels when everything is migrating to object-based audio.


----------



## hifinoob005

Monstieur said:


> In my opinion, Windows Sonic < Dolby Atmos for Headphones < DTS Headphone:X.
> DTS has Balanced and Spacious settings which make a big difference - try the trial. Atmos also has several settings including an accuracy mode which is the default.
> When you enable Spatial Sound (with any headphone renderer), the speaker layout gets changed to 2-channel, so apps must be updated to detect that update 7.1-channel formats are still available using the correct API.
> 
> ...



Is there a list of Spacial Sound compatible games?
I only know of this list:
http://satsun.org/audio/


----------



## Monstieur

hifinoob005 said:


> Is there a list of Spacial Sound compatible games?
> I only know of this list:
> http://satsun.org/audio/


https://www.reddit.com/r/GameAudio/comments/b428zx/games_with_true_3d_spatial_audio_ambisonics/
The ones which say "Dolby Atmos for Headphones (On Xbox One & Windows 10)" are Spatial Sound and can be used with any renderer, not just Atmos. Going forward every Xbox game will be Spatial Sound.


----------



## hifinoob005 (Dec 14, 2019)

Not sure if this makes sense, is it possible to use Waves NX with DSD?

Using foobbar, followed the guide here: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.co...-part-3-new-experimental-sacd-plugin-v-0-9-x/
With Mode 1: Bitperfect.

Mojo DAC via USB.
Not entirely sure this DAC can do native DSD or DSD over DOP.
The manual (http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Mojo-Manual-28072016.pdf) claims only DSD over DOP, however the sample frequency ball can turn white if the signal is DSD.




_1 x micro USB capable of 44KHz to 768KHz PCM and DSD64, DSD128 and DSD256 in DoP format. 
DSD playback is supported using the DoP Standard 1.0 with 0xFA / 0x05 markers. _

Something is working, not sure what. The light turns pink with the settings below:














DS: NX works fine, if in SACD DSD is changed to PCM.

But DSD:WASAPI push/event with NX does not.
The DAC is selected in Waves NX, and is primary in Sound>Playback in Control Panel.

There is some multi channel music I would like to try in this method.


----------



## Monstieur (Dec 14, 2019)

It’s a waste of time using DSD and other hi-res snake oil with HRTFs as all fidelity is destroyed in the filters anyway. Nx and other DSPs only work in PCM internally, as did the mixing console that produced the DSD snake oil in the first place.


----------



## kashim

hi guys my gaming audio setup is ad700x + sbz
i had tried hesuvi with oal_dflt hrir and for me works great but i use vb cable mod with mb audio...i m noob about audio but if i need vb cable mod and need to use mb audio,can i use some amp/dac for better audio fidelity and hesuvi for pinpoint accuracy?if yes which amp/dac is better for my ad700x?actually i have modmic4 and planning to buy mw800 microphone don t know if is a useless info(or dac/amp can amp mic too)


----------



## PurpleAngel

kashim said:


> hi guys my gaming audio setup is ad700x + sbz
> i had tried hesuvi with oal_dflt hrir and for me works great but i use vb cable mod with mb audio...i m noob about audio but if i need vb cable mod and need to use mb audio,can i use some amp/dac for better audio fidelity and hesuvi for pinpoint accuracy?if yes which amp/dac is better for my ad700x?actually i have modmic4 and planning to buy mw800 microphone don't know if is a useless info(or dac/amp can amp mic too)


The CL SB-Z's headphone jack has a 22-Ohm output impedance, which might cause a bloated (louder less detailed) bass for 38-Ohm (AD700X) headphones.
As the AD700X are so bass light, some might prefer the bloated bass.
Creative's newer AE series of internal sound cards has a much lower output impedance, which would offer better damping control (less bloated bass and better detail), with the AD700X.
But if you really have no need for sound card's headphone surround sound features, you can get a Schiit Modi/Magni and connect it to the motherboard's optical (or USB) port.
If Hesuvi can send it's audio out the USB port, then you could just get a Schiit Fulla 3.


----------



## Hemlocke

For those of you using audiophile headphones for gaming, what are you using for mics? I have an Arctis 7 headset that I was using, but now that I have my LCD-2 Classics, I prefer using them.

I recently tried the Mod Mic 5, but it was kind of awkward and not great. I’m thinking a desktop mic, which may be overkill, but I do WebEx and Skype meetings regularly for work.


----------



## Monstieur (May 24, 2020)

Hemlocke said:


> For those of you using audiophile headphones for gaming, what are you using for mics? I have an Arctis 7 headset that I was using, but now that I have my LCD-2 Classics, I prefer using them.
> 
> I recently tried the Mod Mic 5, but it was kind of awkward and not great. I’m thinking a desktop mic, which may be overkill, but I do WebEx and Skype meetings regularly for work.


I bought a ModMic Uni just before NVIDIA RTX Voice was released. RTX Voice with my webcam mic rendered all my headset mics useless. It completely eliminates background noise and picks up my voice perfectly with just the webcam mic.

I had the AT-2020 desktop mic and it was completely unusable for voice communication. It picked up noise realistically as if you were in the room - you could hear a dog barking two streets away. This would probably be usable with RTX Voice.


----------



## Hemlocke

Monstieur said:


> I bought a ModMic Uni just before NVIDIA RTX Voice was released. RTX Voice with my webcam microphone rendered all my headset mics useless. It completely eliminates background noise and picks up my voice perfectly with just the webcam mic.


I run an RTX 2080 Super, but have not looked into Voice. The problem for me is that I don’t have a webcam set up, so maybe I should do that and avoid the hassle...provided I can even find a decent one at this time


----------



## Monstieur (May 24, 2020)

Hemlocke said:


> I run an RTX 2080 Super, but have not looked into Voice. The problem for me is that I don’t have a webcam set up, so maybe I should do that and avoid the hassle...provided I can even find a decent one at this time


I edited my post above. It should work with any desktop mic. I would only get the Logitech BRIO 4K webcam which works with Windows Hello. You can cover the camera lens and Windows Hello still works with the IR sensor.


----------



## Hemlocke

Monstieur said:


> I edited my post above. It should work with any desktop mic. I would only get the Logitech BRIO 4K webcam which works with Windows Hello. You can cover the camera lens and Windows Hello still works with the IR sensor.


Well, that takes the Audio Technica off my list, anyway. Since I use a mechanical keyboard, I don’t need something that picks up me hammering away on my keyboard. I type like I’m playing Whack-A-Mole on the keyboard.


----------



## Monstieur

Hemlocke said:


> Well, that takes the Audio Technica off my list, anyway. Since I use a mechanical keyboard, I don’t need something that picks up me hammering away on my keyboard. I type like I’m playing Whack-A-Mole on the keyboard.


Any desktop mic and even most directional headset mics would pick up the typing. RTX Voice eliminates it completely.


----------



## Hemlocke

Monstieur said:


> Any desktop mic and even most directional headset mics would pick up the typing. RTX Voice eliminates it completely.


Good to know. I’ll go download it now and start the microphone ordering merry-go-round.


----------



## AppleheadMay

Monstieur said:


> I edited my post above. It should work with any desktop mic. I would only get the Logitech BRIO 4K webcam which works with Windows Hello. You can cover the camera lens and Windows Hello still works with the IR sensor.



I also have the Brio 4k and think it’s great as a mic as well.
I use it with Windows Hello also but didn’t know it could work with IR only. How do you activate that?


----------



## Monstieur

AppleheadMay said:


> I also have the Brio 4k and think it’s great as a mic as well.
> I use it with Windows Hello also but didn’t know it could work with IR only. How do you activate that?


Just cover the camera lens with the included cover.


----------



## AppleheadMay

Monstieur said:


> Just cover the camera lens with the included cover.



I see, will test it out.
I guess both "holes" on the right need to be uncovered? IR led and sensor they are as I see in the manual.

Great tip by the way, thanks!


----------



## Rhadamanthys

Razer released a "new" 7.1 VSS software today called THX Spatial Audio. There's a demo available. Anyone try it yet? Though I expect nothing new under the sun.


----------



## Hemlocke

Rhadamanthys said:


> Razer released a "new" 7.1 VSS software today called THX Spatial Audio. There's a demo available. Anyone try it yet? Though I expect nothing new under the sun.


I haven‘t, and I probably won’t because Razer software is 75% data mining and 25% somewhat useful, but still frustrating.


----------



## Monstieur

It's a virtual sound card with 7.1 channels, not a Spatial Sound provider. One unique feature is it allows you to whitelist certain apps like iTunes to play in stereo without being rendered to the front virtual speakers.


----------



## jamng

Monstieur said:


> Any desktop mic and even most directional headset mics would pick up the typing. RTX Voice eliminates it completely.



Did you just use the default settings for RTX Voice (other than selecting your device that is)?


----------



## Monstieur

jamng said:


> Did you just use the default settings for RTX Voice (other than selecting your device that is)?


I guess so. Probably set it to 100%.


----------



## jamng

Monstieur said:


> I guess so. Probably set it to 100%.



Thanks! I realized after installation I didn't have a way of testing it immediately to see what might work best without a game.


----------



## ZzBOG

Guys what's the current state of the art setup for virtual surround? I have Z7M2 which I like quite a bit and O2 amp + Sound Blaster Omni which has SBX. Is there anything better than Omni + SBX that would be a direct upgrade not a sidegrade? Software or hardware or software + hardware


----------



## Monstieur

ZzBOG said:


> Guys what's the current state of the art setup for virtual surround? I have Z7M2 which I like quite a bit and O2 amp + Sound Blaster Omni which has SBX. Is there anything better than Omni + SBX that would be a direct upgrade not a sidegrade? Software or hardware or software + hardware


Spatial Sound on Windows & Xbox, and PlayStation's proprietary engine. Everything else is obsolete. You just need plain stereo headphones.


----------



## ZzBOG

Thank you, which Spatial Sound? The built in one? Or something else


----------



## Zenvota

impulcifer

my sig

a realiser

the jvc xp-ext1 when it comes out


----------



## Evshrug

ZzBOG said:


> Thank you, which Spatial Sound? The built in one? Or something else


He’s saying the built-in one, I think it’s actually called Sonic Studio. I haven’t tried it myself. Sony’s proprietary 7.1 PlayStation HRTF is only available with their PlayStation headset, and I think they use something different for their (decent) 3D spacial audio for the PSVR... but since you use an Omni, I don’t think mention of console solutions helps you at all 😂

Current plug and play options for PC include Creative’s SBX, Creative’s new customizable Super-XFi (you need a smartphone app to take a picture and analyze the shape of your ear and head, but then it works on PC), one of Asus’ aging soundcards with Dolby Headphone, Sennheiser’s Binaural Engine in the GSX1000 (now owned by a company that spun off from Sennheiser, called EPOS Audio), Redscape Audio’s software and headtracking hardware, and the Smyth Realiser...

These days, I’m just using the GSX1000 and my Smyth Realiser A16, but the Realiser is expensive and they’ve only made like 260 of the Kickstarter-funded units so far a year after release.

It’s funny... now that Sennheiser has left the gaming DSP/DAC/Amp sphere and has no product in that space, I can finally talk about the product category again. I would love to try out the S-XFI products from Creative Labs, based on how much the customization from my Realiser and NX Waves in my Audeze Mobius have greatly improved the surround effect for me... but I would rank the GSX1000’s surround above SBX for spacial imaging. It has sounded just like a pair of speakers in front of me and gave me creepily realistic rear cues. It’s a real contender for the price range, though if your headphone is harder to drive than a PC37X or HD 58X Jubilee, I would recommend connecting a dedicated amp to the GSX1000’s headphone output... a little USB Powered soundcard like the GSX1000 just can’t pump out the same power as a wall outlet mains powered amp for something like an HD 650 or HD 800S!

Headtracking has become very impressive to me though. I would rate “static” NX Waves without headtracking to be performing below SBX and the GSX1000, but headtracking kind of calibrates your brain to “where” things are, constantly. I would even say the ability to “place” sounds is actually better with the NX Waves + Headtracking than SBX or the GSX1000... but it still loses by smearing the sound a bit and being less clear than the GSX1000. I got to demo Redscape at two CanJams and talked very excitedly with Ryan Redetzke (get it? Redetzke and Redscape?), and was very impressed by the sound demo... though unfortunately I couldn’t play any games “live,” I could however still have some interaction and control due to the headtracking, and the effect was pretty much the next best thing after VR audio and the Realiser. Since the software runs on the computer, I don’t know how much of a performance hit you can expect, but I would happily trade a few of the “ultimate” graphics settings in a game for the supreme immersion that comes from spacial audio!

The only downside is that most games only support 7.1 surround... the Redscape Audio, Creative, and GSX1000’s offerings will make the most of 7.1, with the Redscape head tracking easily able to tilt the plane of the audio if you physically tilt your head up or down IRL, but a game like CoD: Warzone with just 7.1 sound is inherently only feeding a 2D ring of audio positions to the DSPs. If you can’t tell if a sound is on the same floor as your character, that’s not the fault of the DSP... it’s the fault of the game.


----------



## Monstieur (Aug 29, 2020)

Evshrug said:


> He’s saying the built-in one, I think it’s actually called Sonic Studio. I haven’t tried it myself. Sony’s proprietary 7.1 PlayStation HRTF is only available with their PlayStation headset, and I think they use something different for their (decent) 3D spacial audio for the PSVR... but since you use an Omni, I don’t think mention of console solutions helps you at all 😂
> 
> Current plug and play options for PC include Creative’s SBX, Creative’s new customizable Super-XFi (you need a smartphone app to take a picture and analyze the shape of your ear and head, but then it works on PC), one of Asus’ aging soundcards with Dolby Headphone, Sennheiser’s Binaural Engine in the GSX1000 (now owned by a company that spun off from Sennheiser, called EPOS Audio), Redscape Audio’s software and headtracking hardware, and the Smyth Realiser...
> 
> ...


All of these 3rd party solutions are obsolete as they don't support object-based spatial sound from the game engine. I don't know why companies continue to release HRTFs that are not Windows Spatial Sound providers like Dolby Atmos for Headphones and DTS Headphone:X.

Another issue with 3rd party HRTFs is they can't detect when a stereo source is already mastered with HRTF, like many albums and games. These sound terrible unless you manually switch off the HRTF. Windows Spatial Sound works around this by activating only during multi-channel streams on a per-application basis. The Dolby Dimension headphone is unique in that it can detect when a stereo input already has HRTF applied, and disables upmixing.


----------



## Evshrug (Aug 29, 2020)

Monstieur said:


> All of these 3rd party solutions are obsolete as they don't support object-based spatial sound from the game engine. I don't know why companies continue to release HRTFs that are not Windows Spatial Sound providers like Dolby Atmos for Headphones and DTS Headphone:X.
> 
> Another issue with 3rd party HRTFs is they can't detect when a stereo source is already mastered with HRTF, like many albums and games. These sound terrible unless you manually switch off the HRTF. Windows Spatial Sound works around this by activating only during multi-channel streams on a per-application basis. The Dolby Dimension headphone is unique in that it can detect when a stereo input already has HRTF applied, and disables upmixing.



Hate to break it to you, but most games don’t utilize object based audio straight from the game engine either. There’s a few showcase games that support the Atmos and Windows spacial sound, and I certainly hope many more games support it going forward (I am definitely a proponent of full object-oriented audio as better than emulating a few speaker channels), but until there is backwards compatibility that basically hacks game engine code, these “3rd party solutions” (which also have more sophisticated HRTF algorithms) are going to have wider compatibility. Full object oriented spacial audio support does seem to be on its way though, going forward, and it can’t come soon enough though, IMO. It’s like the return of OpenAL... licensed and closed, but geeze it took long enough!

I don’t know how Dolby Dimension could detect a binaural music album, the pre-mix doesn’t exactly have digital markers or metadata saying as such, at least with torso-mic recorded albums made up until now. If Dolby can, cool that’s very impressive. Turning off a DSP is usually a convenient enough process (tap or click of a button?) that I would consider that a non-issue, but if that one step can be skipped... cool?


----------



## Monstieur (Aug 30, 2020)

Evshrug said:


> Hate to break it to you, but most games don’t utilize object based audio straight from the game engine either. There’s a few showcase games that support the Atmos and Windows spacial sound, and I certainly hope many more games support it going forward (I am definitely a proponent of full object-oriented audio as better than emulating a few speaker channels), but until there is backwards compatibility that basically hacks game engine code, these “3rd party solutions” (which also have more sophisticated HRTF algorithms) are going to have wider compatibility. Full object oriented spacial audio support does seem to be on its way though, going forward, and it can’t come soon enough though, IMO.
> 
> I don’t know how Dolby Dimension could detect a binaural music album, the pre-mix doesn’t exactly have digital markers or metadata saying as such, at least with torso-mic recorded albums made up until now. If Dolby can, cool that’s very impressive. Turning off a DSP is usually a convenient enough process (tap or click of a button?) that I would consider that a non-issue, but if that one step can be skipped... cool?


The in-game headphone mode is preferable to external HRTFs, as it typically uses XYZ coordinates per object. There are poorly written games which collapse to 7.1 before HRTF with the in-game headphone mode. Even with Spatial Sound, multiple objects may be collapsed into one due to limitations on the number of channels which varies by platform (Windows vs Xbox) and spatial sound provider (Dolby Atmos for Headphones vs DTS Headphone:X vs Windows Sonic for Headphones). In the games I've played, I prefer per-object accuracy over a generically better 7.1 HRTF algorithm from an external solution.

For the 7.1 HRTFs, you just need the impulse responses and you can try any of them in Equalizer APO. This is a superior solution than installing a virtual sound card etc. which has its own issues.


----------



## ZzBOG

@Monstieur  I tried the DTS:X with onboard audio (Realtek) and it destroys Soundblaster's Omin SBX and Scout mode experience-wise. Of course the content is DTS:X compatible but still. Wow. Thanks for the recommendation.


----------



## Monstieur

ZzBOG said:


> @Monstieur  I tried the DTS:X with onboard audio (Realtek) and it destroys Soundblaster's Omin SBX and Scout mode experience-wise. Of course the content is DTS:X compatible but still. Wow. Thanks for the recommendation.


It works with most 7.1 channel games, and with media players that use the correct APIs like MPC-BE and mpv. DTS Headphone:X however has a steep sub-bass roll-off. Dolby Atmos for Headphones retains the sub-bass level.


----------



## ZzBOG

@Monstieur I wouldn't need a DAC Amos, right? 
Also I understand correctly that it makes no sense to do any kind of AutoEQ on the headphones when I use Atmos?  It will be overridden pretty much, I guess?


----------



## Monstieur

ZzBOG said:


> @Monstieur I wouldn't need a DAC Amos, right?
> Also I understand correctly that it makes no sense to do any kind of AutoEQ on the headphones when I use Atmos?  It will be overridden pretty much, I guess?


Spatial Sound providers work fine alongside Equalizer APO.


----------



## Prpnnightmare

Does anyone have a recommendation for a DAC I can use from my PC with Dolby Atmos?


----------



## Monstieur

Prpnnightmare said:


> Does anyone have a recommendation for a DAC I can use from my PC with Dolby Atmos?


There's no need of a DAC unless your motherboard is defective.


----------



## Prpnnightmare

Monstieur said:


> There's no need of a DAC unless your motherboard is defective.



That is (good) news to me. have never trusted the quality of sound coming out of a motherboard, but my X-Fi Titanium HD is on its last legs, hence looking for the alternative. Thank you for the reply.


----------



## halcyon

Prpnnightmare said:


> Does anyone have a recommendation for a DAC I can use from my PC with Dolby Atmos?




Which headphones are you using?
Why would you prefer an external DAC?


----------



## nraymond

Prpnnightmare said:


> Does anyone have a recommendation for a DAC I can use from my PC with Dolby Atmos?



Atmos is output via HDMI for multi-channel speaker setups, or over a 2-channel connection for Atmos headphone. Decoding would be in a home theater receiver via HDMI before amplification sent to speakers.


----------



## Prpnnightmare

halcyon said:


> Which headphones are you using?
> Why would you prefer an external DAC?



I'm currently using Hifiman HE-4XX, though I will likely change these soon as they're on their last legs like my current sound card. I actually don't mind purchasing another sound card or using an external DAC - I just thought that an external DAC may be a better choice as there seems to be a wide range of options for a wide range of budgets.



nraymond said:


> Atmos is output via HDMI for multi-channel speaker setups, or over a 2-channel connection for Atmos headphone. Decoding would be in a home theater receiver via HDMI before amplification sent to speakers.



Sorry, I should have clarified that i'm looking to output Atmos Headphone.


----------



## halcyon

Prpnnightmare said:


> I'm currently using Hifiman HE-4XX, though I will likely change these soon as they're on their last legs like my current sound card. I actually don't mind purchasing another sound card or using an external DAC - I just thought that an external DAC may be a better choice as there seems to be a wide range of options for a wide range of budgets.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I should have clarified that i'm looking to output Atmos Headphone.



External DAC (and especially when combined with an external headphone amp) benefit the listener, when driving harder to drive (insensitive), power-hungry and impedance-variant headphones. Driving such headphones from, say motherboards headphone output, may result in less than stellar audible results.

So, That's why I asked about the headphones, because which headphones you use does matter. With certain type of headohones you can actually benefit from an external dac/amp (* there are other potential benefits from an external dac-amp, like measurably better S/N, better external noise suppression, etc).

HE-4XX is a fairly low sensitivity headphone (at 93 dB/mW) at a fairly low impedance of 38Ohm. Your current  X-Fi Titanium HD has an output impedance of roughly 32 of Ohm (way too high for a 38Ohm headphone like HE-4xx) and output power in few milliwatts even for easy loads. This will more than likely result in changes in frequency response, as the headphone is not a linear impedance load. In plain english, worse sound quality than what the headphone is capable of with a proper amp.

Thus,  your sound, esp. bass performance will benefit from changing from Titanium HD to a low impedance (near 0 Ohm) output and more powerful (a hundred milliwatts minimum) DAC/Amp, that is able to drive even lower impedance headphones (like HE-4XX) that are harder to drive due to their insensitivity (again, like HE-4XX).

You don't necessarily need an external DAC though, just a better headphone amp connected to your soundcard, is enough. The amp will then give low impedance output and more power to the headphone, better than the soundcard itself can give.

In plain English, your sound quality, even with current headphones, will benefit from an external amplifier like for example, Topping L30 (c. $140, used with your current soundcard feeding it analog signal) or if you want combined DAC+headphone amp, somethin like Schiit Hel (c. $189). These are just two examples. Budgets and preferences from people to people vary.


----------



## Prpnnightmare

halcyon said:


> External DAC (and especially when combined with an external headphone amp) benefit the listener, when driving harder to drive (insensitive), power-hungry and impedance-variant headphones. Driving such headphones from, say motherboards headphone output, may result in less than stellar audible results.
> 
> So, That's why I asked about the headphones, because which headphones you use does matter. With certain type of headohones you can actually benefit from an external dac/amp (* there are other potential benefits from an external dac-amp, like measurably better S/N, better external noise suppression, etc).
> 
> ...



Thank you for taking the time to write this detailed reply, I really appreciate it. I have been looking at the Schiit offerings for some time actually, primarily the Fulla 3 as I know I'm going to have to change these HE-4XX shortly, and that would leave me some money to do so, as there is a huge markup on the Schiit products locally. The Fulla 3 here is $260AUD, the Hel is $525AUD which is almost double the price even after currency conversion.


----------



## halcyon

Prpnnightmare said:


> Thank you for taking the time to write this detailed reply, I really appreciate it. I have been looking at the Schiit offerings for some time actually, primarily the Fulla 3 as I know I'm going to have to change these HE-4XX shortly, and that would leave me some money to do so, as there is a huge markup on the Schiit products locally. The Fulla 3 here is $260AUD, the Hel is $525AUD which is almost double the price even after currency conversion.




I feel your pain. Take a look at local importers of Topping products. Topping offers excellent performance/price.

*Topping L30 Headphone amp *(no DAC, so you need to pair this with your current sound card or motherboard's analog line-output)
https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/products/topping-l30-headphone-amplifier

*Topping E30 Desktop DAC (no headphone amp, so you need a separate amp after this, like Topping L3 or something else)*
https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/products/topping-e30-desktop-usb-dac?_pos=1&_sid=c3b166c1e&_ss=r

In performance, Topping is even better than Schiit, except for output power to harder to drive headphones.

If you go this route, you still need to hook up your mic/headset's microphone separately to the Mic input of your soundcard (or motherboard's built in audio Mic input) to get voice/chat working.


----------



## Gun21 (Sep 24, 2020)

The  $500 Monolith by *Monoprice Desktop Balanced Headphone Amplifier and DAC with THX AAA*  is a very good all in one solution. It powers my HD800S extremely well and is worth looking at.

On a side note: you asked about Dolby Atmos for Headphones? Can anybody tell me if you can use Dolby (and DTS Headphone X) out to a Dac/Amp using USB (or optical) on Windows 10? I've tried Razer Surround just now over USB, and it's pretty good, but I'm eager to try Dolby Atmos and DTS X for comparison. Unfortunately, I can't trial them again because I installed both previously last year, so no-go on that front.


----------



## Monstieur (Sep 24, 2020)

Gun21 said:


> On a side note: you asked about Dolby Atmos for Headphones? Can anybody tell me if you can use Dolby (and DTS Headphone X) out to a Dac/Amp using USB (or optical) on Windows 10? I've tried Razer Surround just now over USB, and it's pretty good, but I'm eager to try Dolby Atmos and DTS X for comparison. Unfortunately, I can't trial them again because I installed both previously last year, so no-go on that front.


Yes, they output stereo PCM for headphones. However the DAC must support 16/24-bit 44.1/48 KHz or they won't work.


----------



## piji

Monstieur said:


> The in-game headphone mode is preferable to external HRTFs, as it typically uses XYZ coordinates per object. There are poorly written games which collapse to 7.1 before HRTF with the in-game headphone mode. Even with Spatial Sound, multiple objects may be collapsed into one due to limitations on the number of channels which varies by platform (Windows vs Xbox) and spatial sound provider (Dolby Atmos for Headphones vs DTS Headphone:X vs Windows Sonic for Headphones). In the games I've played, I prefer per-object accuracy over a generically better 7.1 HRTF algorithm from an external solution.
> 
> For the 7.1 HRTFs, you just need the impulse responses and you can try any of them in Equalizer APO. This is a superior solution than installing a virtual sound card etc. which has its own issues.



Is Sonic vs DTS Headphone X vs Dolby Atmos basically down to preference?


----------



## Monstieur (Oct 16, 2020)

piji said:


> Is Sonic vs DTS Headphone X vs Dolby Atmos basically down to preference?


Dolby Atmos for Headphones is clearly superior for HRTF. I recorded the impulse response and saw a dip in the mids, but it's a minor issue. Game mode has a shorter reverberation time than Movie. Music mode is untouched stereo with just EQ. Atmos is the best provider because you will get true object-based rendering for E-AC-3 Atmos content in supported applications like Netflix, Edge, and Movies & TV.

DTS Headphone:X rolls off the bass resulting in no sub-bass impact.

Windows Sonic for Headphones has a smaller sound stage than Atmos, but doesn't destroy the frequency response like DTS.


----------



## Prpnnightmare

halcyon said:


> I feel your pain. Take a look at local importers of Topping products. Topping offers excellent performance/price.
> 
> *Topping L30 Headphone amp *(no DAC, so you need to pair this with your current sound card or motherboard's analog line-output)
> https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/products/topping-l30-headphone-amplifier
> ...



Just wanted to follow this up and let you know I purchased the Topping E30 and the Topping L30. I really appreciate your help and advice!

Looking forward to getting Dolby Atmos for Headphones rolling through this setup when it arrives.


----------



## Gun21 (Oct 18, 2020)

I've ended up with a THX amp + HD800S and I don't find I need surround DSPs anymore, unless they're for older games. More and more, modern games feature their own Headphone mode, and as pointed out a few pages back, they are superior to any external DSPs cos they do the full XYZ. Still, I hang on to my SB X3 using optical out, especially for mic duties.

The one superb thing though about Dolby, SBX etc is that they can give soundstage, airiness and depth to headphones that don't have those qualities in the first place, ie closed backs, for example. MLE mentions this extensively in his reviews, so it's a valid point. And, in one nice package you get other great DSP's and EQ options. Equalizer APO is a pain to use on the other hand.

Also also: gaming headphones are a lot better than they were in 2011. Back then, the Audio Technica AD700's were king of the hill. Nowadays, they are considered too shrill, or have just plain fallen apart  I've got a set of Beyer MMX2's now, and they are an absolute joy and so much more fun than the Audio Technicas.

BTW @*Sennheiser *Listen to me: make a gaming version of the HD800S with a mic. Audeze did it with the GX. Just do it, we will pay


----------



## nraymond

Gun21 said:


> BTW @*Sennheiser *Listen to me: make a gaming version of the HD800S with a mic. Audeze did it with the GX. Just do it, we will pay



Wouldn't an Antlion Modmic work? https://antlionaudio.com/


----------



## Gun21 (Oct 17, 2020)

nraymond said:


> Wouldn't an Antlion Modmic work? https://antlionaudio.com/


Yes, but it's a pain with the extra wires and all the farting around, especially so if you are swapping out your other headphones/sets and_ their _microphones, _and _have to reconfigure stuff in Windows. As I say, I'd pay for a HD800S version of the below


----------



## Prpnnightmare

I got my Topping E30 and L30, and the combination is insanely good, really enjoying the body of sound i'm getting through the HE-4XX now despite having had them for so long. 

I bought the Dolby Atmos licence through Dolby Access, and don't hear any change at all with it enabled, unless I am watching trailers through the Dolby Access platform, and honestly they sound pretty horrid. Should I only expect Dolby Atmos for Headphones to be having an effect when using an application that will interact with it?


----------



## Monstieur (Oct 23, 2020)

Prpnnightmare said:


> I bought the Dolby Atmos licence through Dolby Access, and don't hear any change at all with it enabled, unless I am watching trailers through the Dolby Access platform, and honestly they sound pretty horrid. Should I only expect Dolby Atmos for Headphones to be having an effect when using an application that will interact with it?


Any multi-channel app that doesn't use the GetMixFormat API, or has explicit speaker layout settings, should work. Spatial sound has no effect on 2-channel streams.


----------



## nathan_h

No mention of the head tracking spatialising function of the AirPod Pro's  in this thread. Is that because they don't appear to support that function outside the Apple walled garden?


----------



## halcyon

nathan_h said:


> No mention of the head tracking spatialising function of the AirPod Pro's  in this thread. Is that because they don't appear to support that function outside the Apple walled garden?


Yup. PC Gaming thread. Not Apple mobile walled garden gaming thread.


----------



## AppleheadMay

Thought I'd ask here as well as in MLE's thread:


Just found the "Sound Blaster Command" software got recently updated to include the G6, while the "Sound Blaster Connect" software is well over a year old.

Does anyone use "Command" instead of "Connect" for their G6?
And does it also allow VSS to pass through via the optical out?

https://support.creative.com/produc...me=external+sound+cards&catname=Sound+Blaster



                                                   Las


----------



## vincemeister55

Hey guys, will the combo of the FiiO BTR3K and the Takstar GM200 + Dolby Atmos for Headphones provide great audio for games and movies?


----------



## Monstieur

vincemeister55 said:


> Hey guys, will the combo of the FiiO BTR3K and the Takstar GM200 + Dolby Atmos for Headphones provide great audio for games and movies?


The hardware is irrelevant. Atmos for Headphones is a software product.


----------



## vincemeister55

Monstieur said:


> The hardware is irrelevant. Atmos for Headphones is a software product.



My current setup is CoolerMaster MH670 with Dolby Atmos for Headphones and it's great. But I also want to have a wired setup. I read a lot of great feedback about the Takstar GM200, but I also read a lot of users saying it'll really shine if paired with a good amp/dac. I'm choosing between the BTR3K and the Sound blaster X3. And I'm hoping that it'll support the Dolby Atmos for Headphones spatial sound because I just bought it from MS Store.


----------



## Monstieur

vincemeister55 said:


> My current setup is CoolerMaster MH670 with Dolby Atmos for Headphones and it's great. But I also want to have a wired setup. I read a lot of great feedback about the Takstar GM200, but I also read a lot of users saying it'll really shine if paired with a good amp/dac. I'm choosing between the BTR3K and the Sound blaster X3. And I'm hoping that it'll support the Dolby Atmos for Headphones spatial sound because I just bought it from MS Store.


Spatial Sound will work up to 24-bit 48 kHz. If the devices does not support this format (or lower), Spatial Sound won't work.


----------



## vincemeister55

Monstieur said:


> Spatial Sound will work up to 24-bit 48 kHz. If the devices does not support this format (or lower), Spatial Sound won't work.



Are you familiar with the Sound blaster X3? Will that work? I'm leaning more to it.


----------



## Monstieur

There's no point in buying a DAC or AMP unless your motherboard is defective or your headphones are hard to drive.


----------



## Krbass

So I just ordered a pair of ad900x and a mod mic uni. I have an astro mixamp that I use with my xbox but what do you recommend for the PC? Should the mixamp be fine or would I want an external soundcard?


----------



## PurpleAngel

Krbass said:


> So I just ordered a pair of ad900x and a mod mic uni. I have an Astro Mix-amp that I use with my xBox but what do you recommend for the PC? Should the mix-amp be fine or would I want an external soundcard?


Mix-amps are fine for gaming consoles, but for a PC, a sound card is usually better.
Maybe find a good deal on a used AE-5 or G5 or G6.


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## Krbass

PurpleAngel said:


> Mix-amps are fine for gaming consoles, but for a PC, a sound card is usually better.
> Maybe find a good deal on a used AE-5 or G5 or G6.


Just ordered a G6, thanks!


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## towfoo (Jan 6, 2021)

looking to get some help with what to buy...with one caveat...

many years ago i went from a pair of crappy turtle beach p11 to logitech g933 and i was completely blown away.  after a while i started thinking how much futher i could take this and dropped 500 (at the time) on a pair of steel series siberia 840 and i was expecting the same reaction but was a little dissappointed when i felt like the logitechs sounded better...especially when it came to the surrond sound. 

i recently purchased a pair of audeze penrose and was expecting them to be better again but im not really hearing any difference between the siberia 840...and i have also bought 3 different things to try get that 3d audio...the 2 windows 10 ones (dolby and dts) and also wavesnx...but im still not happy. 

im now considering selling the penrose and going to a pair of steel series arctis pro

am i never going to experience that initial "wow" when i moved from turtle beach p11 to logitech g933?

caveat:
- want wireless (2.4ghz rather than bluetooth)

nice to have:
dual wireless connectivity (2.4 to pc and bluetooth to phone)


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## Monstieur

The Penrose is the best headset. Listen to something with sub-bass and you'll see the superiority of the DSP corrected planar magnetic drivers.


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## towfoo (Jan 7, 2021)

Monstieur said:


> The Penrose is the best headset. Listen to something with sub-bass and you'll see the superiority of the DSP corrected planar magnetic drivers.



I agree the penrose sound nice but i couldnt really notice much change between them and siberia 840s. Note i only use them for pc gaming.

That and the penrose feels like we are beta testers...lots of various issues. I experience the whooshing, bad connectivity, tight fit...


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## motorwayne

Gun21 said:


> I've ended up with a THX amp + HD800S and I don't find I need surround DSPs anymore, unless they're for older games. More and more, modern games feature their own Headphone mode, and as pointed out a few pages back, they are superior to any external DSPs cos they do the full XYZ. Still, I hang on to my SB X3 using optical out, especially for mic duties.
> 
> The one superb thing though about Dolby, SBX etc is that they can give soundstage, airiness and depth to headphones that don't have those qualities in the first place, ie closed backs, for example. MLE mentions this extensively in his reviews, so it's a valid point. And, in one nice package you get other great DSP's and EQ options. Equalizer APO is a pain to use on the other hand.
> 
> ...


Can I ask, how is the sound out of your set up better or improved compared the Sound Blaster AE-9 for instance that has SBX as part of the package.

Cheers


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## motorwayne

NamelessPFG: I'm interested in your thoughts on what is the top experience now for the gamer of open world games? I think I recall you lavishing compliments on CMSS in the early days and I too felt/feel the same way, probably still do and have a modded Tit HD in the box of spares. Is there any chance you could give a roughly overarching comment on the state of play as of 2021?

I'm using an Burson modded AE-9 and a pair of HD660S's as my daily gaming driver and really don't know where to go from here if anywhere.

Your comments in amongst the HUGE morass atm would be kindly appreciated, if you have time. 

P.S I posted this in MLE's thread but then realised it was you who talked with favour about CMSS.

Regards
Motorwayne


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## Gun21 (Jan 21, 2021)

motorwayne said:


> Can I ask, how is the sound out of your set up better or improved compared the Sound Blaster AE-9 for instance that has SBX as part of the package.
> 
> Cheers


I still use SBX when required @motorwayne. I went from a Fidelio X1/ Sounblaster Z/ Audio_Gd Compass2 to the HD800S and THX (with a G3); it's better, but not miles better. Also, I wouldn't upgrade from your AE-9 tbh, and I'm sure NamelessPFG could advise you on that. I do know that the HD660s has a bit of a closed soundstage for an open headphone, but images well - for gaming I'd go possibly go for the *Sennheiser PC38X.*

Gaming audio isn't really that great still, with a few exceptions.


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## motorwayne

Gun21 said:


> I still use SBX when required @motorwayne. I went from a Fidelio X1/ Sounblaster Z/ Audio_Gd Compass2 to the HD800S and THX (with a G3); it's better, but not miles better. Also, I wouldn't upgrade from your AE-9 tbh, and I'm sure NamelessPFG could advise you on that. I do know that the HD660s has a bit of a closed soundstage for an open headphone, but images well - for gaming I'd go possibly go for the *Sennheiser PC38X.*
> 
> Gaming audio isn't really that great still, with a few exceptions.



Cheers for that. Interesting re the 660S vs PC38X soundstage, I have a separate Yeti Mic, but interested in checking the PC38X out, the review is very encouraging.


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## Gun21 (Jan 22, 2021)

motorwayne said:


> Cheers for that. Interesting re the 660S vs PC38X soundstage, I have a separate Yeti Mic, but interested in checking the PC38X out, the review is very encouraging.


I didn't notice that you have the K712pro, honestly I think you're sorted. I got the HD800S cos I had the money to grab one.

Edit: Check out this great channel Gaming Audio Guide


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## motorwayne (Jan 24, 2021)

As an exercise on a rainy day, I thought I'd swap around my sound cards to see what it was like now I'm 18 months into the AE-9.

*Normal daily driver :* SB AE-9 modded with Burson single and double vivid OPAMPS (SBX surround sound)
*Swapped out for :* SB Titanium HD modded with a pair of metal can OPA2111AM's (CMSS surround sound)

I play a lot of DayZ and ARMA. To my ear, the CMSS based card gives better positional and positional distance information.

Interesting, wonder why they got rid of CMSS?


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## PurpleAngel

motorwayne said:


> As an exercise on a rainy day, I thought I'd swap around my sound cards to see what it was like now I'm 6 months into the AE-9.
> *Normal daily driver :* SB AE-9 modded with Burson single and double vivid OPAMPS (SBX surround sound)
> *Swapped out for :* SB Titanium HD modded with a pair of metal can OPA2111AM's (CMSS surround sound)
> I play a lot of DayZ and ARMA. To my ear, the CMSS based card gives better positional and positional distance information.
> Interesting, wonder why they got rid of CMSS?


Have you tried connecting an external headphone amplifier to the Ti-HD (Titanium-HD) line-output (RCA) jacks.
The Ti-HD's headphone jack has a 35-Ohm output impedance, technically for good damping control, you would want to use headphones that are 280-Ohm or higher.
Lower Ohm headphone might get a bloated bass, connected to the Ti-HD's headphone jack.
Where as a JDS atom or Schiit Magni 3, with their less then 1-Ohm output impedance, would be better for driving headphones as low as 10-Ohms.
I've heard that the over all sound quality, is a little better, with SBX, then CMSS?

The Soundcore3D audio processor comes with integrated features (like DAC & ADC, etc), that are normally done by several other chips.
Could be Creative removed several DSP hardware functions, making those functions software based and running off the main CPU.
Creative also might have tried it's best to keep the size of the over all chip small, to keep sound card manufacturing costs down.
At least that's what I would have done, if I owned Creative labs
But I'm just day dreaming.


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## motorwayne

PurpleAngel said:


> Have you tried connecting an external headphone amplifier to the Ti-HD (Titanium-HD) line-output (RCA) jacks.
> The Ti-HD's headphone jack has a 35-Ohm output impedance, technically for good damping control, you would want to use headphones that are 280-Ohm or higher.
> Lower Ohm headphone might get a bloated bass, connected to the Ti-HD's headphone jack.
> Where as a JDS atom or Schiit Magni 3, with their less then 1-Ohm output impedance, would be better for driving headphones as low as 10-Ohms.
> ...



Hey there @PurpleAngel , I got the amp hooked up and it was okay, but I run a Yeti mic via blue tooth and I started having sound issues, mic cut out, sound cuts and was just ruggered etc...sadly, I think my CMSS days are looking like they're over. SBX is good enough, but it's mushy and not as precise as CMSS sounds to me.

Anyways, the search for wide stage, good bass and best PC game sound continues..I'm sniffing at some 800S's for a thought  

Cheers


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## motorwayne

PurpleAngel said:


> Have you tried connecting an external headphone amplifier to the Ti-HD (Titanium-HD) line-output (RCA) jacks.
> The Ti-HD's headphone jack has a 35-Ohm output impedance, technically for good damping control, you would want to use headphones that are 280-Ohm or higher.
> Lower Ohm headphone might get a bloated bass, connected to the Ti-HD's headphone jack.
> Where as a JDS atom or Schiit Magni 3, with their less then 1-Ohm output impedance, would be better for driving headphones as low as 10-Ohms.
> ...



I had another go at the SB Tit  HD, cut away some of the shielding to make way for the big red opamps. I added a set of the Burson V6 Vivid single's and double's to the card, added an O2 Amp and separated the Yeti Mic to it's own USB channel and fired it up. I can not tell you how happy I am to again hear the CMSS in all it's glory! and to be using Discord at the same time without issues.

Played for hours tonight loving every minute of it.


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## Gun21 (Jan 28, 2021)

motorwayne said:


> I had another go at the SB Tit  HD, cut away some of the shielding to make way for the big red opamps. I added a set of the Burson V6 Vivid single's and double's to the card, added an O2 Amp and separated the Yeti Mic to it's own USB channel and fired it up. I can not tell you how happy I am to again hear the CMSS in all it's glory! and to be using Discord at the same time without issues.
> 
> Played for hours tonight loving every minute of it.


Sounds like a great mod, nice one.

I've got a Soundblaster G3 (essentially a cheap dongle with SBX surround) going into my THX amp/dac via optical and it sounds great. Power everywhere with the amp, and also a nice interface and equalizer to tweak away with on the SB software (see pic below).

I clocked your comments over on MLE's thread. CMSS is a distant memory, and I dearly hope gaming audio improves.


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## motorwayne

It has been a week with the *Titanium HD/ Burson V6 Vivid combo*....I'm soo living the dream, even though I thought CMSS was excellent for surround, the Burson's have really given the card some OMPH! Everytime I'm gaming I'm smiling and notcing things, so clear and individuated, some sounds have punch, others are subtle..no more mushy mushy SBX ----> runs for cover  )


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## revolutionz

Looking for some input on a modmic uni and gaming audio in general...starting to game on PC more again vs consoles, so naturally time to look at my audio setup.  At my desk I currently have a Burson Conductor 3R that I use for music, it is my understanding that with Windows Sonic or DTS for Headphones I shouldn't need any new DAC/AMP hardware, just the software implementation?

My current headphones are B&W P7 and Focal Elegia.  P7's are a bit more V shaped and fun for games, but the Elegia have it beat in sound stage.  Thinking about something like a modmic uni, but concerned the double side tape they use may ruin the headphones when I take it off down the road.  Anyone have any input on this?

I've also been exploring some slightly cheaper setups to use as a dedicated rig too, such as the Beyer DT 770 Pro/modmic, the Beyer MMX 300, EPOS|Sennheiser Game Zero, Audeze Penrose etc.  Any recommendations there?  Prefer to stay closed vs open for the location of my desk. Wired vs Wireless I don't really have a preference.

I tried some Logitech G Pro X wired, and after listening to good headphones for so long they just didn't do it for me.


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## motorwayne

I've been normally using a Yeti as my mic and not using the X-Fi HD mic output. But recently I've been tying a pair of PC37X's while waiting on the PC38x to arrive, and I've been plugging the headset cord into the mic out on the X-Fi HD, apparently according to my team mates on Discord, my voice gets all staticy from time to time or I lose voice altogether sometimes.

Question: Is this normal for this card?, I seem to remember others say much the same in the past..or is it just a Discord/Windows/X-Fi thing?

Cheers


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## motorwayne

motorwayne said:


> I've been normally using a Yeti as my mic and not using the X-Fi HD mic output. But recently I've been tying a pair of PC37X's while waiting on the PC38x to arrive, and I've been plugging the headset cord into the mic out on the X-Fi HD, apparently according to my team mates on Discord, my voice gets all staticy from time to time or I lose voice altogether sometimes.
> 
> Question: Is this normal for this card?, I seem to remember others say much the same in the past..or is it just a Discord/Windows/X-Fi thing?
> 
> Cheers


Easiest fix was to enable onboard sound and use the mic output instead, works like a charm.


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## motorwayne

I have a question: Is CMSS Headphone tunable like SBX or is it a fixed thing?


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## halcyon

motorwayne said:


> I have a question: Is CMSS Headphone tunable like SBX or is it a fixed thing?


At least on the X-fi PCI-cards it was somewhat tuneable (effect strength), but not as tunable as some others like Super X-fi or Waves NX.


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## PurpleAngel

motorwayne said:


> I've been normally using a Yeti as my mic and not using the X-Fi HD mic output. But recently I've been tying a pair of PC37X's while waiting on the PC38x to arrive, and I've been plugging the headset cord into the mic out on the X-Fi HD, apparently according to my team mates on Discord, my voice gets all staticky from time to time or I lose voice altogether sometimes.
> 
> Question: Is this normal for this card?, I seem to remember others say much the same in the past..or is it just a Discord/Windows/X-Fi thing?
> 
> Cheers


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## motorwayne

halcyon said:


> At least on the X-fi PCI-cards it was somewhat tuneable (effect strength), but not as tunable as some others like Super X-fi or Waves NX.


Hmm, I can't see it in the Game Mode console section, only entertainment...I guess game is set to ALL speakers equally?


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## motorwayne

@PurpleAngel?


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## motorwayne

So we must have reached the pinnacle of PC audio the.


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## motorwayne

I have a new question:

How do I get CMSS going with this setup?

1) Schiit Lyr 3 amp/AK4490 G2 DAC connected to PC via USB out into digital USB in? The AK4490 DAC sounds better than the Tit HD one imo.
2) I have the Titanium HD still installed on the PC and all of the software etc
3) I do have a digital to analog audio converter available if need be

Cheers


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## motorwayne

Also: Whats the opinion on Equalizer APO/HeSuiVi and their version of CMSS, is it the same thing as creatives?

Cheers


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## Evshrug

I think NamelessPFG abandoned Head-Fi.
Also, I'm pretty sure HeSuiVi didn't license the HRTFs they claim to use.


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## motorwayne

Evshrug said:


> I think NamelessPFG abandoned Head-Fi.
> Also, I'm pretty sure HeSuiVi didn't license the HRTFs they claim to use.


Oh okay re NPFG, I didn't know that.


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