# Hi quality Fuses: do they improve sound?



## Fiat95

So, I subscribe to Stereophile, and recently saw an advertisement for SR Quantum Fuses: http://www.synergisticresearch.com/featured/new-category-synergistic-research-quantum-fuses-furutech-hifituningsupreme-fuses/
  I am currently running a Poneer SA 600, and was wondering if upgrading the fuses would help at all? Has anyone had any experience with this product and its sound improvement?


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## Happy Camper

fiat95 said:


> So, I subscribe to Stereophile, and recently saw an advertisement for SR Quantum Fuses: http://www.synergisticresearch.com/featured/new-category-synergistic-research-quantum-fuses-furutech-hifituningsupreme-fuses/
> I am currently running a Poneer SA 600, and was wondering if upgrading the fuses would help at all? Has anyone had any experience with this product and its sound improvement?


There are a few threads on fuses and many have confirmed positive results. Don't have any experience with em but would like to. Just so many other things to do first.


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## ProtegeManiac

Quote: 





happy camper said:


> There are a few threads on fuses and many have confirmed positive results. Don't have any experience with em but would like to. *Just so many other things to do first.*


 
   
  Yep, don't stress over the imporvement from the fuses. If your fuses break then get some of the "Hi-Fi" fuses to try out, otherwise don't think about these too much. Some amps ship with really sturdy fuses that don't color the sound, they just aren't marketed as "Hi-Fi" fuses.


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## TheAttorney

A substantial thread on the topic starts here. You'll find more information and opinions than ever you could have imagined.
   
  Fuses attract probably even more controversy than cables. But there's less fighting going on with fuses because I think the skeptics are so incredulous that they don't even bother posting.
   
  I was was initially skeptical and now a supporter. I've stated in another thread that the AMR fuse is the best value tweak of all time. Ever. Primarily because it's less than half the price of the more well known brands and so easier to justify giving it a go.
   
  As always with any passive component that has next to zero distortion and ruler flat frequency response, the objective differences are tiny (well they just must be), but the subjective improvement to ones musical enjoyment can be more than worth the cost. Some people can readily hear such differences and some can't, or won't.


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## Lorspeaker

It will affect the sound, for better or worse...your ears the judge. 
I jus ain't sure where to locate those fuses in my setup if any...:rolleyes:


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## DefQon

Personally I find marketing bs with "audio fuses" that improve the sound spectrum to be more of a joke as cryo'd tubes that offer night and day difference level of improvement over it's stock counterpart. Lot's of audiophiles are suckered into bs such as mentioned.


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## TheAttorney

I sometimes wonder if skeptics are the only ones to ever take notice of "marketing bs". I certainly pay no attention to it, apart from getting slightly irritated by marketing that mentions the Quantum word. I judge a product entirely be the end result. I've never tried the SR Quantum fuses, so won't comment on them, but others have given very mixed reactions.


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## penmarker

You can almost hear the cash sound from all the snake oil traders.


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## duncan1

Where fuses cause a degradation of the music signal is if they are fitted to a Hi-Fi Power Amp outputting many amps and the fuse is located in the output to the speakers-bad news-they heat up and cool  and in doing so their resistance changes. Even AD Engineers agree  with that.
               The same can apply to fuses fitted to a power supply output under a heavy  varying load. The fuse holders fitted to many PCBs are Rubbish. You know the kind just cheap clips and you push the fuse in . Under a Microscope the parallel sides of the clips are anything but flat. The answer is to remove them and fit INDUSTRIAL 90 degree spring loaded ones these CUT into the fuse at 90 Degrees there bye making maximum contact with the fuse. The body is made out of high impact plastic and are usually use small size fuses.
                 I have come across many fuse holders OXIDIZED and having a contact resistance of several ohms and like your auto battery if the connections aren't tight enough they HEAT up. I do agree that some manufactures "go overboard " when it comes to selling their products
                   And remember there are MANY types of fuses -slow blow-quick blow-surge resistant etc.Get the right ones. 
                     As an industrial example BT in the UK got rid of all their soldered connections to their equipment[cabling from the equipment to the Main Frame]  and replaced it with sharp edged bars that bare wire was wrapped around  biting into the wire this made a highly reliable connection.[very low resistance].


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





duncan1 said:


> The same can apply to fuses fitted to a power supply output under a heavy  varying load. The fuse holders fitted to many PCBs are Rubbish. You know the kind just cheap clips and you push the fuse in . Under a Microscope the parallel sides of the clips are anything but flat. The answer is to remove them and fit INDUSTRIAL 90 degree spring loaded ones these CUT into the fuse at 90 Degrees there bye making maximum contact with the fuse. The body is made out of high impact plastic and are usually use small size fuses.


 
   
  You give an "answer," but don't define a meaningful "problem."
   
  How does the "problem" manifest itself at the actual output of the amplifier?
   
  se


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## duncan1

Steve.By the heating and cooling of the fuse harmonics are created that effect the openness of the signal and add a slight "rough edge" . Even the great anti-subjective D, Self agrees with that as does my late departed guru of audio JLH. And yes it is in an edition of EW mag a number of years ago. Signal analyzers were used to show the harmonics.


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## DefQon

So you're saying "Audio grade" fuses add improvements to sound? How is that even possible? It's the same with people who spend thousands on power cables hoping it to improve sound by concentrating the power from the AC mains to there equipment more, not when the AC main's has a dirty power supply, improvements can only be via a power station or filtration unit, a cable doesn't do anything but just pass a signal from A to B. The same can be said for fuses, as long as the fuse is contact with the fuse holder, there is no reason why it should reduce or add anything to sound, is there science to backup and say that fuses distort and cause vibration like audio tubes? Think not.


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## duncan1

Where in my posts did I  mention "audio grade fuses?? I put forward a proven scientific  fact and the types of fuses available All "down to earth" stuff.
       And where did I mention  "cable sound" you are putting words  into my mouth that weren't there in the first  place. Why don't you argue against a proven FACT.
           I know "full well" that there  is great exaggeration in audio products but that doesn't mean you DIS things that CAN be proved scientifically >if you Had read my posts in the past you will find that I said I  am NOT 100% convinced about cables and I stated that cables containing  large amounts of-Resistance/ Inductance/ Capacitance will affect low level signals surely you  agree with that as it is proven scientifically?


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## DefQon

*** duncan before blowing off steam read my post properly. I didn't quite understand what you were talking about in the first part of your sentence *"By the heating and cooling of the fuse harmonics are created that effect the openness of the signal and add a slight "rough edge" * it very much sounded like you were talking about fuses opening up the sound and adding a slight rough edge i.e. making adjustments to sound which I strongly disagree. My cable example wasn't directed at you and nor did I say anything that you wrote anything about cables I was making a direct assessment of people who believe in "audio grade fuses" are in the same group of people who believe power cables provide cleaner sound improvements/signal when the AC main's is dirty.
   
And yes I have read much of your past posts in other threads, rendering an almost completely lost meaning due to your style of writing, formatting and incomplete sentences that don't make sense - but as you say to other users "deal with it".


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## duncan1

Maybe I took you "the wrong way" but what I said about the fuses at the output of a Hi-Fi power Amp has already been debated long ago in the pages of Electronic World mag -A mag that is read internationally round the world by the Audio /RF /  Digital/ design engineers especially in the USA. It is World recognized as a mag that sticks with the scientific facts and the majority agree with YOU! So if I quote from it it wont be "flower Power" comments  it will be totally down to earth. But that doesn't mean they cant be challenged if something can be proved scientifically.
                      I used to repair communication receivers in the past. Take that well known communications company based in the US-Hallicrafters in their old SX 28 receiver the connection between their BFO and oscillator valve was by 2 wires twisted together! Can you see what I am getting at ? if 2 wires can induce current in each other the same can be said for  High Fi equipment . 
                         JLH got ridiculed and sneered at when he said he could hear the difference in capacitors[look at my posts on him]   20YRS later cutting edge capacitor test equipment was designed and built by an Audio Design Engineer Proving John was Right . Where were the apologies?????


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## DefQon

Correct me if I'm wrong, JLH as in the amp designer/company ~ JLH Audio?


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## duncan1

The only John Lindsay Hood I know is the now departed JLH who was an English Audio Design Engineer . I dont think he copyrighted his name. If  an Audio company are selling products using his name I hope his relations know about it. And I hope his products would have been endorsed by that company  as " John Lindsay Hood designed products"- if they stick to his design principals.  If there are 2 people with his name using his "image" I would like to hear about it? John gave his backing to companies to produce his 80W Mos-Fet amp /preamp[using shunt feedback] and other designs . Has this company the "rights" to it?


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## DefQon

Yep John Lindsay Hood = JLH we are on the same page. I only call it JLH audio because of his older preamp designs that were quite popular amongst the diy'ers on diyaudio.


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## Lenni

Quote: 





duncan1 said:


>


 
   






...so the weird indentations in your comments is not some script incompatibilities between a handheld devise and a browser... but your deliberate act. What would you want to do that?! I've seen some weird stuff on the internet but yours takes a new place.
   
  I say this somewhat tounge-in-cheek... but it would give me enormous pleasure to see you being chased by wild dogs. just seating somewhere while I observe them giving chase, and when they finally get to you and bite you in the ass. yeah, I would drew great pleasure from that...
   
<edit: damn it grammar>


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## DefQon




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## duncan1

There is always some young idiot on websites  who  has no  manners due to inability to communicate with other people because they never go out and meet other people and develop "complexes" stuck in a bedroom. It is best to ignore them and a waste of time  arguing with them. 
         So I wont be answering  his posts  but I hope the moderator  limits his insults. If he continues as it "pulls down" Head-Fi to the level of Twitter.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





duncan1 said:


> Steve.By the heating and cooling of the fuse harmonics are created that effect the openness of the signal and add a slight "rough edge" . Even the great anti-subjective D, Self agrees with that as does my late departed guru of audio JLH. And yes it is in an edition of EW mag a number of years ago. Signal analyzers were used to show the harmonics.


 
   
  These harmonics were shown to be _at the amplifier's output_? If so, what issue of EW was this in?
   
  se


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





duncan1 said:


> Maybe I took you "the wrong way" but what I said about the fuses at the output of a Hi-Fi power Amp has already been debated long ago in the pages of Electronic World mag...


 
   
  I wasn't asking you about fuses in the amplifier's output. I was responding to your comment regarding fuses in the output of a _power supply_.
   
  Quote: 





> JLH got ridiculed and sneered at when he said he could hear the difference in capacitors[look at my posts on him]   20YRS later cutting edge capacitor test equipment was designed and built by an Audio Design Engineer Proving John was Right . Where were the apologies?????


 
   
  No apologies are necessary as measurements made using capacitor test equipment doesn't prove that John was able to actually hear differences in capacitors. It's trivially easy to make measurements of things no human being has ever demonstrated the ability to hear. To prove whether or not someone can actually hear a difference requires controlled _listening_ tests. Either that or measurements which show differences of sufficient magnitude that they are within currently established thresholds of audibility.
   
  se


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





duncan1 said:


> There is always some young idiot on websites  who  has no  manners due to inability to communicate with other people because they never go out and meet other people and develop "complexes" stuck in a bedroom. It is best to ignore them and a waste of time  arguing with them.
> So I wont be answering  his posts  but I hope the moderator  limits his insults. If he continues as it "pulls down" Head-Fi to the level of Twitter.


 
   
  If the moderators do anything, it should be to move this thread over to Sound Science.
   
  se


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## anetode

Quote:  





> ... tounge-in-chick


 
    I have nothing substantive to add to this discussion.  Just savoring the typo.


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## duncan1

Waste of time answering ignorance.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





anetode said:


> I have nothing substantive to add to this discussion.  Just savoring the typo.


 
   
  HA!
   
  I don't read Lenni's posts so missed that one. Thanks!
   
  se


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





duncan1 said:


> Waste of time answering ignorance.


 
   
  And this is directed where exactly?
   
  se


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## Lenni

Quote: 





duncan1 said:


> Waste
> of
> time
> answering
> ignorance.


 
   
  there, I fixed that for ya... Freud. I kinda start to like it, if you keep at it, eventually everybody's gonna post like this in the future.


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## bedlam inside

Hi,

 A while back at a hifi show I picked some fuses in a prize draw. Can't say they made a huge difference, but either the fuses or just me cleaning up the fuse holders and plugs did seem to improve things a bit.

 That said, my system is rather "high end", not sure it would be worth it for some old cheap Pioneer Amp.

 Cheerio Rich


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## Speedskater

Bob Cordell in his recent book "Designing Audio Power Amplifiers" measured fuse distortion. In section 13.11 he measured a 3AG 2 Amp fuse in the output circuit.  The lower the frequency the more the distortion. So at 20 Hz, he measured all of 0.0033 % harmonic distortion. With higher frequencies having less distortion.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





speedskater said:


> Bob Cordell in his recent book "Designing Audio Power Amplifiers" measured fuse distortion. In section 13.11 he measured a 3AG 2 Amp fuse in the output circuit.  The lower the frequency the more the distortion. So at 20 Hz, he measured all of 0.0033 % harmonic distortion. With higher frequencies having less distortion.


 
   
  And of course I can't think of any amplifiers of note, save perhaps some mass market stuff that uses fuses on the outputs.
   
  But if that's the worst that can be accomplished in the output, imagine just how inconsequential mains or rail fuses are.
   
  se


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## Speedskater

From the Bob Cordell chart,  distortion may be down to 0.001 % at 60Hz and falling rapidly.


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## anetode

Cordell should proceed to test whether any additional distortion is introduced by the fuse not in an output circuit but inserted directly into the listener's rectum. I am certain that the resultant subjective differences will be both personally profound and objectively verifiable.


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## duncan1

So I take it that what I said about high current fluctuation heating and cooling the output fuse producing harmonic oscillations that can be seen on a spectrum analyser is a lie?  If so can you come out and say that? For the scientific fraternity   to read. This applies to all who have slagged me off. Just come out and say that it is a lie.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





duncan1 said:


> So I take it that what I said about high current fluctuation heating and cooling the output fuse producing harmonic oscillations that can be seen on a spectrum analyser is a lie?  If so can you come out and say that? For the scientific fraternity   to read. This applies to all who have slagged me off. Just come out and say that it is a lie.


 
   
  The question I put to you had to do with your specific mention of fuses IN THE POWER SUPPLY, not at the amplifier output. A question you apparently chose to ignore.
   
  se


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## duncan1

I was replying to a question  asked by a poster about fuses . I said in a down to earth manner that it would be better if he removed the dirt cheap PCB fuse holders and fit the newer industrial type that cut into the fuse  at a 90 degree angle  and mentioned that BT [UK] fitted sharp edged steel bars and wound bare copper wire round them for a better[very low ohm age] contact. As I worked for them for a while I think I should know what they do in innovation. This can be transferred directly to Hi-Fi amps containing fuses any high ohm-age connection can produce heat just look at a slack auto battery connection turn the engine over and then touch the connection you will find it is hot All fuses are relative to the circuit used in the Stax 717/727 the PS output fuses are 100MA the actual current used is around 60MA now if under load it rises the fuses get near their "blow point" heat develops This applies "in spades" to power amps for loudspeakers that have fuses in the PS. Why do you think so many designers make mosfet/bjt fully regulated power supplies with numerous safety features.and no PS fuses[ only mains surge limiting at the transformer]  But the problem is that they cant supply the peak current as quickly that a simple PS[non regulated] can. Its all down to choices Looking from the      manufacturers   point of view- whats cheaper a fuse or a fully stabilized PS You pay your money and take your choice. I have come across many cheap fuse holders that oxidize and increase the surface resistance so why shouldn't a Hi-Fier not fit gold plated ones not the same conductivity  as silver but wont tarnish. This isn't "mumbo-jumbo" its plain down to earth scientific facts.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote:  





> This isn't "mumbo-jumbo" its plain down to earth scientific facts.


 
   
  Plain down to earth scientific facts? What, you mean like this?
   
_*By the heating and cooling of the fuse harmonics are created that effect the openness of the signal and add a slight "rough edge" .*_
   
  When exactly was this established scientifically?
   
  By the way, science of this sort isn't allowed in these forums so if you wish to discuss it further, it should be done over in the Sound Science forum.
   
  se


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## duncan1

Science of this sort -Do you know how arrogant you  sound? You don't believe in subjectivism but this web site and 10s of 1000s of others Worldwide exist solely on Subjective comments by posters . don't tell me you are in denial just because you live in what you would like to call a scientific environment . Every human being on this planet talks/ l listens  SUBJECTIVELY to deny is absurd  as does every animal/ insect/bird/fish.  Do the posters say " my amp is 100DB down therefore its perfect?" No they don't they discuss   my amp SOUNDS-X Y Z I don't like the tone I like the tone . This isn't a scientific professors annual meeting to discuss the mathematics behind black holes. I have been invited to conference in the US twice in the past 3 years but apart from not having the money to attend  I don't agree with pure mathematics.
         Even top scientists cant explain the fact of our existence and this World -Its " Big Bang" which is now being criticized by some.
               Music really is "the food of life " it lifts your spirits makes you feel happier because people listen SUBJECTIVELY. 
                  And to try  and force me away from here smacks of Germany in the 1930s.- You will do as we say--or ELSE!


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





duncan1 said:


> Science of this sort -Do you know how arrogant you  sound? You don't believe in subjectivism but this web site and 10s of 1000s of others Worldwide exist solely on Subjective comments by posters .


 
   
  I'm all for subjectivity. In fact when it comes to the enjoyment of music, reproduced or otherwise, I'm wholly subjectivist.
   
  What I don't do however is try and pass off subjectivity as objectivity as you did in your statement that I questioned.
   
  Quote: 





> And to try  and force me away from here smacks of Germany in the 1930s.


 
   
  Wow. Sure didn't take long for Godwin's Law to kick in.
   
  I can't force you to do anything. I was simply pointing out that this forum is a "DBT-Free Forum," meaning discussion of controlled listening tests are prohibited. Such discussions are however allowed in the Sound Science forum here. And since you made an objective claim, that would be the appropriate forum for discussing it.
   
  se


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## duncan1

That would mean you are denying me the right of reply to criticism What do you call all those young guys who slagged me off in personal terms . Should they not go to "the right to call somebody any name     they want to site" is that part of this site? . Because I don't like continually to be on the offensive  and having to reply to what sounds like ignorance to me. I am not going to reply in kind to them although I could because I have respect for people but I don't like people who have no respect for others unless they think the same as them. Its all down to human decency.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





duncan1 said:


> That would mean you are denying me the right of reply to criticism What do you call all those young guys who slagged me off in personal terms . Should they not go to "the right to call somebody any name     they want to site" is that part of this site? . Because I don't like continually to be on the offensive  and having to reply to what sounds like ignorance to me. I am not going to reply in kind to them although I could because I have respect for people but I don't like people who have no respect for others unless they think the same as them. Its all down to human decency.


 
   
  Hate to break the news to you, but you don't have any right of reply here. Nor do I. The only people that right is reserved for is the people who own this place.
   
  I'm simply pointing out that the challenge to your objective claim would involve bringing up a subject which is prohibited in this thread and that unless you want posts to be deleted and possibly the thread locked, that discussion should take place in the one forum where that subject is allowed.
   
  Quote: 





> What do you call all those young guys who slagged me off in personal terms .


 
   
  I don't know what this has to do with what you and I are discussing. But if you have a problem with someone's post, there's a little red flag down in the lower left you can click on to report it.
   
  se


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## duncan1

So you are saying  I cant put forward a scientific fact here even if somebody else brings it up in the first place? And you want me to stick to subjective replies???? Why don't you tell that to several long term posters here who are always giving out technical advice?? should they move elsewhere- You know whom I am talking about. Or is it a "closed shop" and only those that are members of the elite can do that. Sounds like the Masons to me. Even though I have been helping people here? Its funny I was first of all criticized for spouting subjectivism and now I cant put scientific facts forward . What about all the   others here that comment on tubes/ rewiring amps/building new ones / advice on technical aspects that's objectivism.??


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





duncan1 said:


> So you are saying  I cant put forward a scientific fact here even if somebody else brings it up in the first place? And you want me to stick to subjective replies???? Why don't you tell that to several long term posters here who are always giving out technical advice?? should they move elsewhere- You know whom I am talking about. Or is it a "closed shop" and only those that are members of the elite can do that. Sounds like the Masons to me. Even though I have been helping people here? Its funny I was first of all criticized for spouting subjectivism and now I cant put scientific facts forward . What about all the   others here that comment on tubes/ rewiring amps/building new ones / advice on technical aspects that's objectivism.??


 
   
  Your claim which I am questioning is not to my knowledge an established scientific fact.
   
  Let me refresh your memory once again as you seem to keep losing track of what you have said and what I am questioning. Either that or you are intentionally trying to obfuscate by bringing up issues that I have never questioned or challenged.
   
_*Steve.By the heating and cooling of the fuse harmonics are created that effect the openness of the signal and add a slight "rough edge" .*_
   
  Here you are making the objective claim that the miniscule amount of distortion produced by a fuse's thermal characteristics is in fact audible.
   
  However in order to challenge that claim would involve bringing up a subject which is prohibited in this forum.
   
  Quote: 





> Why don't you tell that to several long term posters here who are always giving out technical advice??


 
   
  Your claim which I am questioning was not "technical advice."
   
  se


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## Happy Camper

Why can't these forums be allowed to comment on subjective experiences without the science mafia crashing every thread? These debates belong in the science forum. There are people wanting to know about other's experiences without all the BS and it's commonly the same BS'ers crashing them.


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





happy camper said:


> Why can't these forums be allowed to comment on subjective experiences without the science mafia crashing every thread? These debates belong in the science forum.


 
   
  I was responding to* objective* claims made by duncan1. If you want to keep things subjective in these forums, then the rules should prohibit objective claims from being made in these forums.
   
  Quote: 





> These debates belong in the science forum.


 
   
  Yes. I said the same thing. And in response, duncan1 called me a Nazi.
   
  se


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## duncan1

I second that. Every time I mention subjectivism I get a ton of criticism even though every Hi-Fi forum in the World [and I know a few] speak subjectively  try speaking without being subjective in these forums??? It cant be done. Some people wont admit they are organic human beings who speak subjectively /listen subjectively  >There are plenty of forums on science only but that's okay But dare to speak "out of turn" and you get pulverized by the angry posts . I don't want to continually justify myself here apart from it being wearing I have many responsible things to do at home.
         Now because somebody doesn't believe I wrote letters to EW I have to dig out 25Years of them and read through them I have better things in my life to do .I have a poor opinion of science they keep changing their point of view.My old maths teacher at high school showed on the board that  2+2=5 using algebra after that maths didn't mean the same to me.I am a subjective because I am a human being not a robot.


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## Steve Eddy

If you don't want to have to justify yourself, then don't make objective claims as you did previously. You can't have it both ways, making objective claims and then when those claims are questioned or challenged, go running and hiding behind the mommy's skirt of "subjectivity." Objective claims should _always_ be open to question and/or challenge, so if you don't want to be questioned and/or challenged, then don't make them.
   
  se


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## duncan1

Mommy's skirt of subjectivity???- If there is a prize  for being patronizing/condescending /arrogant well you win. I would never speak in that way to people I hate arrogance and refuse to be "brow beaten" down. Your comments are subjective don't you realize that? Proving that people cant communicate without  being subjective. This thread is all about fuses and I answered in a practical manner -type of fuse/ material of end caps of fuse conductivity between gold/silver. is it the comment about cheap fuse holders? they are as they say in the UK-"as cheap as chips"[french fries] If you pay big bucks for a product you are entitled to top quality.not low grade parts. fuses holders "biting in" to the fuse present a lower amount of electrical resistance to the connection rather than a push fit  into dead cheap PCB clips Which dont apply as good a connection as spring loaded 90 degree ones. Even British Telecom knows this.


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## TrollDragon

Quote: 





duncan1 said:


> <snip> Sounds like the Masons to me. </snip>


 
   
  And one of the finest fraternal organizations in the world, with billions spent on hospitals for children that have burn or orthopaedic problems, totally free of charge to the parents or guardians.
  Just have a look at http://www.shrinershospitalsforchildren.org/
   
_*If you know of a child who might benefit from care at a Shrine Burns or Crippled Children's facility, contact ANY Shriner or call one of the toll-free patient referral lines between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. Eastern Time.*_
   
_*In the United States: 1-800-237-5055*_
_*In Canada: 1-800-361-7256*_
   
  With many other charities in the portfolio as well as community services, membership in any Masonic Organization today is far from an "elite" thing.
  It's just what one does, I belong to the Shore Lodge #134 A.F & A.M.
   
  So the Masonic slag is just not warranted in my humble opinion.


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## duncan1

The problem I have with the Masons-and yes some of my relatives  are in it .Is that in the UK if you cant rise up in your occupation by the sweat of your brow or by your intelligence you join the   Masons and THEN bypass those better than you at the job. Totally unfair! Many UK police are in it.Members of the Royal family are in it. .One royal is the Grand Master of the UK. 
          The person I think very highly of was Mother Teresa- A REAL saint- she was slagged off because she helped the poor in countries the US didn't approve of and there was always the anti catholic  groups who criticized her and no I am not a catholic. She helped the "untouchables" in India and many of people suffering from leprosy  didn't bother her. I firmly believe she is with GOD now many in this life wont be.. You put the question -I answered so if you don't like what I wrote  tell me where  I lie?


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## TrollDragon

This is another reason why I believe users here should put in their loacation info. You being in the UK I can understand your disapproval on the fraternity. I have read "The Brotherhood" while it if full of inconsistencies and half truths, it does paint a very negative light on The British Masonic Organisation. We luckily do not suffer the same problems here in Canada. I have done a lot of good work in the lodge and have experienced first hand, the good that lodges do in communities.

Most of the unwashed masses out there believe the "Masons" are a direct tie to the Illuminati and other sorts of foolishness, and Dan Brown's books aid in that misconception to some degree. Sorry it just gets my ire up when today's lodges get compared to the Old Boys Club from many many years ago. Secret societies tend to bring out the negative in the uninformed, just by being secret and it is understandable.

And yes MT was a saint, I whole heartedly agree, this forum though is not the place to discuss the US and the Catholics, so I'll have no opinion on those, and leave my Masonic Flag Waving for another time and place.

I'll leave you fine gentlemen with your fuse discussion in peace, and will not interject my 2 cents about the parasitic oscillations of cryogenic unicorn hair... 

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk 2


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





duncan1 said:


> Mommy's skirt of subjectivity???- If there is a prize  for being patronizing/condescending /arrogant well you win. I would never speak in that way to people I hate arrogance and refuse to be "brow beaten" down. Your comments are subjective don't you realize that? Proving that people cant communicate without  being subjective. This thread is all about fuses and I answered in a practical manner -type of fuse/ material of end caps of fuse conductivity between gold/silver. is it the comment about cheap fuse holders? they are as they say in the UK-"as cheap as chips"[french fries] If you pay big bucks for a product you are entitled to top quality.not low grade parts. fuses holders "biting in" to the fuse present a lower amount of electrical resistance to the connection rather than a push fit  into dead cheap PCB clips Which dont apply as good a connection as spring loaded 90 degree ones. Even British Telecom knows this.


 
   
  So once again you completely ignore the _objective_ claim you had made which I have so far twice reminded you of, and go on yammering about something completely irrelevant. Is this intentional or are you just daft?
   
  se


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## bedlam inside

Guys,

 Okay, okay, keep yer Alans on! It's all gone a bit Pete Tong, innit?

 Is it really asking for bags of sand in me sky rocket to keep things on topic?

 No need for yet another subjectivist vs. objectivist debate.
   
  The blighty audio jazz mags and from me reading the septic ones too were full of the proverbial on it in the 80's and 90's.

 For the record, the "objectivist" audio jazz mags have all gone belly up. The others are still around.

 I guess that means the "subjectivists" have won and there is no need for guerrilla action.

 Equally, if you are mason, or not, if you like them or you think they are the spawn of Henry Neville or whatever Barkleys yer think of Mother Theresa has no point in this debate. Kindly keep that pen & ink to yerself.

 "Hi quality Fuses: do they improve sound?" is the topic. 

 Please:


   

 Cheers Rich


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





bedlam inside said:


> No need for yet another subjectivist vs. objectivist debate.


 
   
  Except when someone who calls themself a "subjectivist" (but who really isn't but is instead what I refer to as a "pseudo-objectivist") goes and makes an objective claim.
   
  Otherwise, there is no legitimate debate between true subjectivists and objectivists. Sadly there aren't many true subjectivists out there. Instead what you have are a bunch of the pseudo-objectivists that I refer to above. Those who call themselves subjectivists, but operate from the premise that their subjective perceptions are an effectively unerring reflection of objective reality and make what are unquestionably objective claims as was the case here. True subjectivists don't operate from such a premise and don't go on making objective claims.
   
  Quote: 





> For the record, the "objectivist" audio jazz mags have all gone belly up. The others are still around.


 
   
  Last I looked, Stereophile is still publishing. And while Stereophile can't be said to be wholly objectivist (nor can you really say that about the "objectivist" magazines you refer to), every full review, save for those of power devices, tweaks, cables, cartridges and turntables, is accompanied by a suite of objective measurements.
   
  Quote: 





> I guess that means the "subjectivists" have won and there is no need for guerrilla action.


 
   
  But as I said, there is no legitimate debate between true subjectivists and objectivists. It's only when the so-called "subjectivists" attempt to cross the line into objectivism that there is debate.
   
  The solution is to ultimately put to rest the inappropriately described "subjectivist vs. objectivist" meme.
   
  se


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## wuwhere

I'm not sure if this has been stated here before, I've read in another forum of this safety warning about fuses.
   
  "Sorry to rain on anybody's parade, but you need to be careful when changing out fuses and trying to design your own. I hope that you are aware of the dangers of fuse swapping beyond your credibility on the forum and sound quality.

 I had to select fuses to include all the products that I produce, and it's not a trivial task. There are several things you need to know.

 1) There are two major standards by which fuses are rated. An _IEC_ rating means that the fuse can continuously operate at 100% of the rated current. A *UL* rating means that the fuse can continuously operate at 75% of the rated current. This is important because if your piece of equipment has a UL rated fuse, and you replace it with an IEC rated fuse, you could be operating at 33% over-current without the fuse blowing - which might mean expensive repairs if your power transistors are overloaded by a short circuit and the fuse doesn't blow. If your product uses an IEC fuse, and you replace it with a UL fuse, it could blow easily and you wonder why.

 2) Every fuse has a "Breaking Capacity". This is the maximum current that a fuse can safely blow without a catastrophic failure such as fire or explosion. If the fuse has too low a breaking capacity (for example short circuiting a power amp), the surge could cause the fuse to explode and things could catch fire. The short circuit behavior of any product is a difficult thing to calculate - and the only way to do it might be to do some destructive testing. Blow up a couple of amplifiers, and see if the fuse explodes.

 3) Slow blow fuses are used when there is in-rush and peak current at start-up. They are designed to start working from cold. For example, that is why sometimes when you have been playing your system for some time. Turn it off, and then turn it on again the fuse blows. What could be dangerous is that "slow blow" fuses come with different speeds and react to different patterns of the surge. Technically, this is the I2t value - current squared times time - the heat energy needed to blow the fuse. If you use a fuse with too high a heat energy value, you could be damaging your amp/component while waiting for the fuse to blow in a short circuit situation. Too low a heat energy value, and the initial surge blows the "slow blow" fuse.



 4) Pulse factor derating of the fuse wire. As a fuse wire is subjected to pulses of high current (everytime you turn your system on for example), the fuse wire ages. Here's a picture: *(I deleted it)*

 Obviously an aged fuse wire will break more easily, but we might also conclude that it won't sound as good.

 5) Heat dissipation factor. All fuses heat up under operation. If the heat dissipation of the fuse is greater than the designed capacity of the fuseholder, the fuseholder could melt.

 No risk, no gain. But please know your risks before you play the game."


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## TheAttorney

wuwhere, it's always good to be reminded about safety factors, but the above seems like too much information for most folks, ones that aren't amp designers.
   
  If I need to replace a fuse in my kettle or amp or heater, then the key things I need to know is the voltage/current/slow/fast blow rating of the fuse. 
  The other factors above, like IEC Rating and Breaking Capacity, are simply not listed as choices I can make when I buy a replacement fuse, whether from audiophile or DIY store.
   
  What is relevant though is if the boutique or standard fuses do actually conform to their stated spec and to the standards of the country they are sold in.
  That is often hard to acertain, but in the first instance, buyers must at least get the voltage/current/slow/fast blow rating right.


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## duncan1

Wuwhere has put a expanded  version of what I said and I agree with what he says. What annoys me is proto phycologists  saying you cant say A or B because it upsets their sense of what is reality in the World to them. Every person has a point of view but to arrogantly condemn somebody because of philosophical differences is not something I will ever accept.


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