# CEntrance Ampersand balanced portable headphone amplifier



## SDBiotek

This thread is for discussion and impressions of the CEntrance Ampersand balanced headphone amplifier, CEntrance's first portable analogue-only headphone amp.


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## SDBiotek (Jan 28, 2022)

Reserved for specs and other information from CEntrance.

UPDATE: Received an email that Ampersand begins shipping next week!


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## Xinlisupreme

Is this?
https://centrance.com/ampersand/
Should be available


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## warrenpchi

Xinlisupreme said:


> Is this?
> https://centrance.com/ampersand/
> Should be available



Yes, that's the one.


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## BasilFawlty

Confused what tread. I tried Chord Mojo. Prefer hiring-m8.


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## warrenpchi

Though I know it's outdated by now, I've been continuing to _evaluate_ (i.e. enjoy) the previous 4W prototype of the Ampersand.  For those of you who heard the Ampersand at CanJam SoCal 2021, it's that exact unit that I have here.  This HiFi-M8 V2 + Ampersand pairing is stunningly good for a transportable rig, coming very close to some desktop gear I've heard.  Indeed, for anybody not trying to crest the peaks of summit-fi, I'd even say that this makes for a pretty good main rig.

If you'll only be driving IEMs or low-impedance/high-sensitivity headphones, I'd say the Ampersand is wholly unnecessary.  But if you're going to be driving anything that has a reputation of being somewhat demanding, then you're going to want the Ampersand.  Though I listen at quiet to moderate volumes, there were times when the HiFi-M8 V2 just wasn't satisfying enough, especially for older tracks with lower levels.

And in case you're wondering, the headphone I've been using the most with this rig is Audeze's new LCD-5.  It's a pretty resolving headphone... so if there was a flaw with either the V2 or Ampersand or both, I'm pretty sure I'd have found it by now.  

That said, a lot of the above is fairly meaningless as there's a new Ampersand revision coming.  Still, it's been fun _evaluating_ this older revision so far. 😛


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## mgoodman (Jan 10, 2022)

Hello all, thank you SDBiotek for making this thread!

Some power specs for your perusal:

13Ω: 2.3W
16Ω: 3W
22Ω: 4.4W
48Ω: 6W

All values are total per two channels.

13Ω/2.3W will result in about 120dB SPL for the Aeon Noir 2 cans.  This is, generally speaking, VERY LOUD.
Either Flow C are loud. HE-6 are loud. LCD2 are unbearably loud. Susvaras are very loud. HEDD will most likely be very loud (will know soon).
So we believe this dots most of the "i's". But will let you guys be the judges.


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## ssriram2791

mgoodman said:


> Hello all, thank you SDBiotek for making this thread!
> 
> Some power specs for your perusal:
> 
> ...


Fantastic ! Kudos for all the hard work !

What does the battery life look like per charge ?


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## mgoodman (Jan 10, 2022)

Battery should be around 5 hours. Really depends on how much of a heavy metal head you are  We are still measuring.


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## mgoodman

Some pics below


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## ssriram2791

mgoodman said:


> Battery should be around 5 hours. Really depends on how much of heavy metal head you are  We are still measuring.


Assuming low gain to high gain difference is +20 dBA, if I can operate at 50% volume medium gain and get 5 hours of it, and let my ATH-R70X sing, I am happy.


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## mgoodman

ssriram2791 said:


> Assuming low gain to high gain difference is +20 dBA, if I can operate at 50% volume medium gain and get 5 hours of it, and let my ATH-R70X sing, I am happy.


I have a hard time believing you would need any more than that for those cans. Note that the position of gain switch and/or volume knob does not influence distortion.


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## ssriram2791

mgoodman said:


> I have a hard time believing you would need any more than that for those cans. Note that the position of gain switch and/or volume knob does not influence distortion.


All I am looking for is how I can make dynamics of the headphone better with portable Class A solution, this should be fun. Hope the beta testers can shed light here on the synergy between Ampersand and some of the headphones they tested.


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## caustic386

Specs posted today.  Distortion looks a little high compared to SOTA designs, would need a full sweep to be sure.  If .0089% is worst case and nothing nasty hiding in multitone, shouldn't be a problem to anyone but your dog.  Don't see 1ohm impedance too often these days, either, but I can't think of any headphones lower than 10ohm so shouldn't be an issue.

look at that power, though!  Not sure I've ever seen that much output in such a small package - if its confirmed by independent reviewers, this thing is stunning. 

https://centrance.com/ampersand/

(Scroll to bottom, click Specs)

Well done!  @mgoodman I worry you have a bit of an uphill battle against the Dunning-Krueger segment of objectivists but I really like how the design prioritizes what actually matters within it's target: portability and power availability within transparent distortion thresholds.

1 Q - nominal input is 2V, if I push that harder from a abalnced source (probably around 3.5V) will distortion improve?  Or will it clip?


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## ruffandruff

Can this bypass battery when plugged in? Is there is an option to choose wall power or battery?


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## warrenpchi

ruffandruff said:


> Can this bypass battery when plugged in?



Yes.



ruffandruff said:


> Is there is an option to choose wall power or battery?



No.


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## mgoodman

ruffandruff said:


> Can this bypass battery when plugged in? Is there is an option to choose wall power or battery?


When running on wall power, the battery is smart -- it is out of the way, unless the charger is wimpy. Then, the battery kicks in to help during loud passages. Otherwise, it's not there. Just remains topped-up.


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## HeadphoneAddict

I just received a sample of the Ampersand today. I and my son HeadFanatic are both extremely impressed with it! All of our listening today was via the 4.4mm and 4-pin balanced outputs. 

I listened to an Alpha version last year and prefer to forget about that one, LOL. 

I’m using it with a variety of portable balanced sources - mostly DAC/amps and not pure balanced DACs. That’s including CEntrance BlueDAC, HiFiM8 V2, Palab M1 Mini, and HiFiMan R2R2000.  I have NOT tried the Palab and R2R2000 yet, that will come tomorrow. We did also try feeding it SE input from the BlueDAC and Encore Hi-mDAC. 

I have a variety of cables to connect any 4-pin, 2.5mm or 4.4mm balanced sources to the 4.4mm input. I’m trying to figure out if I have what I need to connect a desktop DAC with dual 3-pin DAC outputs into a single 4-pin balanced input, but I don’t think I do. 

Tje Ampersand’s output sound quality and sound signature matches the HiFiM8 V2 sound perfectly - but this Ampersand has gobs and gobs of power for all of my harder to drive headphones. 

It drives my inefficient OG HiFiMan HE-6 better than any other headphone amp in the house, including the HiFiMan EF-6 that was made for them, and a $3000 maxed out Eddie Current ZDT speaker/headphone amp with 8W into 8 ohm (2W into 32 ohm). the Ampersand is pretty close to when I would drive the HE-6 with a 40W Marantz receiver or 55W home theater receiver via the speaker outputs. 

If I set the HiFiM8 V2 volume to 80% and used the 4-pin XLR output to drive the HE-6 I would get good everyday listen volumes in high gain. If feeding this 4-pin XLR output into the Ampersand via 4.4mm input, it did not over drive the VU meters on the Ampersand which stayed out of the red zone, and sound was not distorted. 

We did some direct comparisons of the M8 V2 output to the Ampersand output with the HE-6, and so the M8 V2 stayed in high gain at 80% volume to get them loud enough to compare to the Ampersand output when setting its volume to 12 o’clock. With these settings we could first listen to HE-6 on the HiFiM8 V2, and then move the HE-6 to the output of the Ampersand - we’d connect the M8 V2 4-pin out to the Ampersand 4.4mm input. It was perfectly volume matched to the M8 4-pin XLR output when the M8 was driving the HE-6 at 80% volume knob.

Turning up the volume from 12 o’clock to 1-2 o’clock got the HE-6 quite loud. Moving to 3-4 o’clock was extremely loud and still hitting solidly, with no sign of running out of juice. We even got the Ampersand up to max volume at 5 o’clock and it was unbearably loud. To listen for audible clipping I will have to put in soft foam earplugs while listening to the HE-6 at maximum volume, because without earplugs I could not focus due to the extreme high volume. 

My son’s HD800 and my HD800s sound great with the Ampersand, and I was able to listen to HD800/800s at medium and even low gain. Again, I would pick the Ampersand to listen with my HD800s over any of my current desktop headphone amps (HiFiMan EF2, EF5, EF6, or EF100, Eddie Current ZDT, DACMini, Cavalli Liquid Carbon X, Schitt Magni, Millet Hybrid, Nuforce DAC 100, Nuforce HAP 100). 

Back in the day everyone was touting how great the power output of the portable RSA SR-71b balanced amp was; but it could never drive the HE-6 or HD-800 well, and was better with a few planar magnetic from Audeze and HiFiMan, or with the HD600/650. I still have mine but never use it now due to the unconventional input jack (and the SE output was terrible). The SR-71b was the only balanced portable amp with SE and balanced analog input that I ever bought. The RSA F35 Lightning could drive HD800 well (but not HE-6); but it was balanced out only and less powerful. Now there is a better option that is so much smoother and spacious, more versatile, and with more standardized SE and balanced analog inputs and outputs. 

The only other amp we have here in the house that comes this close to the Ampersand with HD800 or 800s, playing with such autjoritative bass and authority, is our Pioneer VSXLX303 or VSXLX102 home theater amps with an external DAC (built-in DAC is too grainy), followed closely by the HiFiM8 V2, and then the HiFiM8 v1 (still surprisingly good, albeit better with the bass control turned up). 

The HiFiM8 V2 by itself sounds very good with any of the above headphones, but the Ampersand adds some weight and authority to the sound, and certainly more so with the HE-6. Overall, I prefer the HD800s for listening, and with something tiny and low powered like a BlueDAC, DACport HD, or Encore Hi-mDAC, you don’t really have enough power to enjoy the HD800. But you can add the Ampersand to those DAC/amps and gain enough power to do the HD800 justice, even when using a 3.5mm source and feeding that into the 3.5mm input.

When using a small DAC/amp with 3.5mm output as the source, we would turn those up to 100% volume to feed that into the Ampersand. Those devices did not seem to exceed the 2v the Ampersand is expecting, and they did not overdrive the input. Being able to plug this into wall power or computer power via USB is a big bonus. You could leave this plugged in to your computer all the time, and I would like to try it with the ESS DAC built into the front panel 3.5mm output on my desktop PC. I suspect this could be as good as my many USB DAC/amps. 

We found that the HE-1000se sound fantastic on the HiFiM8 V2, without the extra amplification of the Ampersand, and the sound basically remained similar to the source when feeding the source into the Ampersand. This is where we started to realize that the Ampersand really does seem to be like “wire with gain.“ It would take on the overall sound characteristics of which ever source we were feeding into it, whether the warmer and euphoric sounding BlueDAC, the well balanced HiFi M8 V2, or the slightly brighter and analytical sound of the encore Hi-mDAC. 

With my HD800s I preferred the CEntrance HiFiM8 V2 as my source, but with the original HD800 from 2009 the BlueDAC did help tame the edge that they are so well known for. The Hi-mDAC was not a good match for any headphone until we pulled out the HE-1000se. 

When we tried the HIFIMAN HE-1000se we found that any of those 3 DAC/Amp were a good source to feed into the Ampersand. This is such a detailed and spacious headphone, yet so forgiving, that it’s still by far my favorite headphone, followed closely by my HD800S.

My son has his day off tomorrow and the next day, and we plan to spend more time listening to other headphones with the Ampersand like our single ended Grado HF1, and balanced HiFiMan Edition-X V2, HE560 and HE500, our HD600 and HD6XX etc. We will also try using the warmer sounding Palab M1 MINI and HiFiMan R2R2000 as sources, out of their 4.4mm outputs, using my 4.4mm male to male interconnect cable. 

Overall, the Ampersand can convert any small portable or built-in computer DAC/amp into a rig that can drive just about any full size headphone. You use the old DAC/amp as source, with the Ampersand contributing a considerable amount of extra power, with NO coloration added to the sound of the source. I can’t even imagine how much better it might sound if I feed my $4000 PS audio Perfectwave Mark II balanced desktop amplifier into it!

This Ampersand is a miracle of modern miniaturization - to get this much clean power out of such a small amp would be unheard of until now, let alone from something running on a battery! We paired it to to a BlueDAC wireless battery powered DAC/amp, and without a full charge on either they both lasted at least 4 hours with almost constant music playback at high volumes. You can’t do that with the huge desktop amp that you would need to match its performance! 

I’m more likely to pair something like this with my desktop PC or 16” MacBook while plugged into USB-C full time, but to know that I could use this to fly from Colorado to Miami on a single charge is reassuring. And, the fact that it could replace most people’s desktop amps is even more amazing.


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## HeadphoneAddict

I would like to add that the sound signature does not seem to change, to my ears, when switching between high gain, medium gain, or low gain. I have experienced sonic changes with some amps in the past when changing to a different gain level, but not this one. The only amp to come to mind right now is my Schitt Audio Magni (OG) which does Not sound as good when you go to low gain, and we prefer to keep that one in high gain. 

Also, with HiFiM8 V2 4-pin output at 80% volume as source feeding the Ampersand, the only headphone for which I wanted to use high gain tonight was the HE-6;  and I still would never go above 2 o’clock for my personal listening. High gain was fine with the other headphones, but I could not use the last 30-40% of the volume knob with them. 

In high gain with the HD800’s and HE-1000se, I usually listened with the Ampersand volume knob at or below 12 o’clock. At medium gain, with these 2 headphones I was not turning the volume higher than 2 o’clock. 

I do think it would be quite possible to use the Ampersand in low gain, medium gain, or high gain, with the HD 800 or the HE-1000 SE; but I would not use low gain with the HE-6.


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## warrenpchi

Wow, that's a fantastic set of initial impressions @HeadphoneAddict!   

Unfortunately I was out of the office for most of the day today, so I didn't get a chance to run it through its paces yet.  However, I did torture it last night in some strange ways, and can verify some of what you mentioned.



HeadphoneAddict said:


> Tje Ampersand’s output sound quality and sound signature matches the HiFiM8 V2 sound perfectly - but this Ampersand has gobs and gobs of power for all of my harder to drive headphones.



Yup, pretty much.  In fact, I discovered some unexpected synergy here.

I think that many people, upon hearing about the new LCD-5, expected it to sound exactly like an LCD-4, but way more resolving.  I also think that a lot of those people were a little disappointed that it wasn't quite the above, in that the LCD-5 sounded much more mid-centric than they wanted it to be.

However, when I drove my LCD-5 with a HiFi-M8 + Ampersand pairing, and engaged the HiFi-M8's bass and treble boost, I was immediately rewarded with exactly that:  a tonal signature that was reminiscent of an LCD-4, but with all the resolution of an LCD-5.  I'm hesitant to post this in the LCD-5 thread just yet because it's:  (a) just an initial impression thus far; and (b) I don't want to prematurely cause a riot that will surely result in a lot of extra moderation work that I don't have time for right now.  But yeah, holy smokes, that was pretty amazing!



HeadphoneAddict said:


> I’m trying to figure out if I have what I need to connect a desktop DAC with dual 3-pin DAC outputs into a single 4-pin balanced input, but I don’t think I do.



I just happened to have such an adapter, and I immediately decided to do something silly with it... 



HeadphoneAddict said:


> I can’t even imagine how much better it might sound if I feed my $4000 PS audio Perfectwave Mark II balanced desktop amplifier into it!



So, I fed it with the XLR line outs of a Chord Dave. 🤣

In my case, I did notice some coloration changes over that of the Dave's built-in headphone amp.  Most notably, there was a non-trivial increase in bass slam.  It was like... like Dave grew a pair.


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## mgoodman (Jan 19, 2022)

HeadphoneAddict said:


> I and my son HeadFanatic are both extremely impressed with it! All of our listening today was via the 4.4mm and 4-pin balanced outputs.
> 
> I listened to an Alpha version last year and 1prefer to forget about that one, LOL.


Thank you Larry. Coming from you this means a lot!

Thank you also for your honest and relentless feedback about the earlier prototype. I had to redesign the whole thing pretty much from scratch to address your suggestions, and while I hated myself during that process, it came out much better in the end!


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## mgoodman

warrenpchi said:


> Wow, that's a fantastic set of initial impressions @HeadphoneAddict!
> 
> ...  It was like... like Dave grew a pair.


Leave it Warren to deliver the punch line!


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## HeadphoneAddict

warrenpchi said:


> Wow, that's a fantastic set of initial impressions @HeadphoneAddict!
> 
> Unfortunately I was out of the office for most of the day today, so I didn't get a chance to run it through its paces yet.  However, I did torture it last night in some strange ways, and can verify some of what you mentioned.
> 
> ...


So I caught a typo in what you quoted from me that I’m not gonna go back and fix. 

But I also caught where I mistakenly said dual 3-pin into single 4-pin, and I actually meant to say dual 3-pin into 4.4 mm male, which is the input into the Ampersand. 

I have adapters to let me use 4-pin XLR headphones on a 2.5 mm balanced or a 4.4 mm balanced headphone out jack. And I have cables to connect a 4-pin headphone jack to a 2.5mm input or 4.4mm input. And other to connect 2.5mm or 4.4mm headphones to a 4-pin XLR. 

I just have nothing to connect a desktop DAC-only to a portable balanced amplifier’s input, except for a dual 3-pin to RSA cable to feed the RSA SR-71b and F-35 Lightning amps.


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## warrenpchi

HeadphoneAddict said:


> So I caught a typo in what you quoted from me that I’m not gonna go back and fix.



Typos reflect frank and candor in the moment, and a lack of polish and dressing do they not?   



HeadphoneAddict said:


> But I also caught where I mistakenly said dual 3-pin into single 4-pin, and I actually meant to say dual 3-pin into 4.4 mm male, which is the input into the Ampersand.
> 
> I have adapters to let me use 4-pin XLR headphones on a 2.5 mm balanced or a 4.4 mm balanced headphone out jack. And I have cables to connect a 4-pin headphone jack to a 2.5mm input or 4.4mm input. And other to connect 2.5mm or 4.4mm headphones to a 4-pin XLR.
> 
> I just have nothing to connect a desktop DAC-only to a portable balanced amplifier’s input, except for a dual 3-pin to RSA cable to feed the RSA SR-71b and F-35 Lightning amps.



Ah, yes, forget to mention a few things.  In addition to the dual 3-pin to single 4-pin adapter (which I presume all of us old farts have, and yes probably some Kobiconn connectors too lol), I picked up a 4-pin XLR to Pentaconn adapter a little while back.  This one. I also have a short Pentaconn-to-Pentaconn connector that I picked up from somewhere, but I can't remember where at the moment. That Frankenstein assortment was enough to get the job done. Though, at this point, I'm very tempted to ask Peter to DHC something specific for me.


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## HeadphoneAddict

mgoodman said:


> Thank you Larry. Coming from you this means a lot!
> 
> Thank you also for your honest and relentless feedback about the earlier prototype. I had to redesign the whole thing pretty much from scratch to address your suggestions, and while I hated myself during that process, it came out much better in the end!


I certainly will not forget all the late night sessions we spent chatting on the phone and in messenger, to make sure that this product was perfect when completed. I have to tell you it’s a job well done and I can’t think of any way to make it better. 

Well, except maybe if it also had tone controls for people who are not using a source with tone controls. But the tone controls would not be to correct any flaws in this amplifier, but rather to correct flaws in someone’s headphones.

I like that it’s possible to get a finger nail in there to change the gain without needing to use a pen or pencil to poke inside the switch slot. But it’s so flexible that most people can set it and forget it for the majority of their headphones - the gain could be mostly to match it to your source’s output level.


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## HeadphoneAddict

warrenpchi said:


> Typos reflect frank and candor in the moment, and a lack of polish and dressing do they not?
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, yes, forget to mention a few things.  In addition to the dual 3-pin to single 4-pin adapter (which I presume all of us old farts have, and yes probably some Kobiconn connectors too lol), I picked up a 4-pin XLR to Pentaconn adapter a little while back.  This one. I also have a short Pentaconn-to-Pentaconn connector that I picked up from somewhere, but I can't remember where at the moment. That Frankenstein assortment was enough to get the job done. Though, at this point, I'm very tempted to ask Peter to DHC something specific for me.


So I’m pretty sure that I have a dual 3-pin to four pin adapter, but I would need gender changers, because it lets me plug a headphone cable with dual 3-pins into a 4-pin headphone amp.


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## warrenpchi

HeadphoneAddict said:


> I have to tell you it’s a job well done and I can’t think of any way to make it better.



lol, I just thought of something.  But since it's too late now, I should just .


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## ruffandruff

mgoodman said:


> When running on wall power, the battery is smart -- it is out of the way, unless the charger is wimpy. Then, the battery kicks in to help during loud passages. Otherwise, it's not there. Just remains topped-up.


thats good to know....so it can be kept plugged in 24/7 as a desktop unit without harming the battery. 
Could you confirm if this is Class-A like the website states. Is it completely Class-A. If that is so, that would be an incredible feat of achievement for a such a small device that too considering the amount of power this thing is outputting.


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## warrenpchi

ruffandruff said:


> Could you confirm if this is Class-A like the website states. Is it completely Class-A. If that is so, that would be an incredible feat of achievement for a such a small device that too considering the amount of power this thing is outputting.



I had a chance to chat with Michael Goodman yesterday, and he confirmed that the Ampersand is in fact Class AB.


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## SDBiotek

warrenpchi said:


> I had a chance to chat with Michael Goodman yesterday, and he confirmed that the Ampersand is in fact Class AB.


Pure  Class A and battery powered don't  mix, lol. Maybe it could be done, but either a massive battery pack would be needed ( making the device barely portable) or it would provide a very limited amount of amplification. I do have another portable amp that has a Pure Class A mode, but it can really  only work with iems and easy to drive headphones. Even many mains-powered "Class A" amps really only stay in Class A for just a small percentage of their  total rated output, then switch to AB as the load demands.


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## ruffandruff

warrenpchi said:


> I had a chance to chat with Michael Goodman yesterday, and he confirmed that the Ampersand is in fact Class AB.


Thanks for letting me know


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## newworld666

SDBiotek said:


> Pure  Class A and battery powered don't  mix, lol. Maybe it could be done, but either a massive battery pack would be needed ( making the device barely portable) or it would provide a very limited amount of amplification. I do have another portable amp that has a Pure Class A mode, but it can really  only work with iems and easy to drive headphones. Even many mains-powered "Class A" amps really only stay in Class A for just a small percentage of their  total rated output, then switch to AB as the load demands.



I think my portable amp Less BX2plus is pure/full time class A with 6W too .. a bit too bulky and less than 4 hours working time with my HEDDphone and DCA Stealth.
I like Centrance M8V2 form factor, so I expect the ampersand to be a nice replacement for the  Less BX2plus, though it's a class AB


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## warrenpchi

SDBiotek said:


> Pure  Class A and battery powered don't  mix, lol.



Right, exactly.  I just wanted to get a quick clarification because the web site mentioned Class A at one point, and some people have been wondering.



newworld666 said:


> I like Centrance M8V2 form factor, so I expect the ampersand to be a nice replacement for the  Less BX2plus, though it's a class AB



Yes, they pair especially nicely together.  I've got both of them strapped back to back ATM, and it largely looks like I have two of either unit.


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## HeadphoneAddict

I had to go out of town for a few days, and should be back home tomorrow night, and then I can finish trying all those other headphones I mentioned with the Ampersand. I really don’t expect to find any surprises.


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## BasilFawlty

CEntrance have always been an innovative company. II fell in love with the company when I bought my first HiFi-M8 2015.Great sound and very affordable. At my desk I still have the DAC Mini CX with beautiful speakers. Right now I am waiting to get the Ampersand - great complement to the V2. And again CEntrance shows its “thinking outside the stack” by this: 

https://centrance.com/store/Commander-Console-2U-p438256867

When traveling I use my Audeze IEM but at home I am planning to use the horizontal console with my Audeze LCD-4.

Very smart and at a great price.


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## SDBiotek

I received my Ampersand yesterday! I have not had much time to spend with it yet, but even just using my Cayin N3Pro as a source ( line out or headphone out), there are no issues  driving the Dan Clark Audio Stealth or Hifiman Ananda. High gain isn't  even needed to comfortably drive the Strealth, but that may change when I try different  sources. I will leave it to @warrenpchi and @HeadphoneAddict  to weigh in more eloquently than I can, lol! So far I am very pleased with the neutral sound signature and power.


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## HeadphoneAddict

HeadphoneAddict said:


> I would like to add that the sound signature does not seem to change, to my ears, when switching between high gain, medium gain, or low gain. I have experienced sonic changes with some amps in the past when changing to a different gain level, but not this one. The only amp to come to mind right now is my Schitt Audio Magni (OG) which does Not sound as good when you go to low gain, and we prefer to keep that one in high gain.
> 
> Also, with HiFiM8 V2 4-pin output at 80% volume as source feeding the Ampersand, the only headphone for which I wanted to use high gain tonight was the HE-6;  and I still would never go above 2 o’clock for my personal listening. High gain was fine with the other headphones, but I could not use the last 30-40% of the volume knob with them.
> 
> ...


So, it seems that I don't have any headphones that this Ampersand cannot drive well, with more than enough power for even the Original HiFiMan HE-6. However, as a "wire with gain" it sounds just like whatever source I use. So, if you pick the wrong source then the ampersand can sound as bright or as dark as the source. I find it to be utterly transparent, and a viable replacement for most desktop headphone amps as well.

My PALAB M1 Mini is not a good choice as the source when listening to HD-800/800s, as it is a little too bright for those; but wow does the M1 Mini + Ampersand sound good with my darker sounding HD-600 and HD-6XX!! Even the slightly brighter Grado HF-2 LE sound good with the M1 Mini alone or via Ampersand. But not so with the brighter HD-800/800s.

I've reported in the past that the Palab M1 Mini can drive the HD-6XX with authority by itself with the balanced output, while in that review I had found that the HD-600 sounded better with the HiFiM8 V2. But, now I found the HD600 were also very good with the M1 mini if I feed the M1 Mini into the Ampersand first and then plug the HD-600 into that.

My BlueDAC is a warmer sounding amp with slightly more bass, but it's great as the source/DAC for feeding the Ampersand with just about any headphone. I prefer this BlueDAC and my HiFiM8 V2 as the source, because the combo is more versatile and I can listen with anything via the Ampersand. I think the Ampersand is a bit much power for the HE-1000se and Edition-X V2, and I turn the gain down to medium for the 1000se and low for the Edition-X. 

The BlueDAC can drive the above on its own without the Ampersand, but when it comes to HD-800/800s or HE-6 then YOU REALLY NEED the AMPERSAND. The HD-600/6XX sound good via blueDAC balanced 2.5mm output, but even better and more punchy when feeding the BlueDAC into the Ampersand first.

The HiFiMan R2R2000 is also a good source with the HD-800/800s and is necessary to properly drive the HD800/800s when you have the R2R2000. But as I said, the HE-1000se do not need a stronger amp than the R2R2000, HiFiM8 V2, or BlueDAC. Still, the HD-800/800s sound much better from the Ampersand than directly from the R2R2000 built-in amp (which is fantastic without an external amp for my easier to drive headphones like HE-1000se, Edition-X V2, or IEM like Westone W80 and Westone ES60, etc).

The HiFiM8 V2 can easily drive the HE-560 V1 balanced, but the Ampersand gives them more punch and authority as well, like with the HE-6 V1. Again, the Palab M1 Mini is not a good source/DAC for the HE-560 V1 as it makes them a little bright, while the BlueDAC or HiFiM8 V2 + ampersand pair with them much better.

I have not tried easy to drive full size headphones like CEntrance Cerene dB or V-MODA M-100, as it would be pointless based on my experience with the Edition-X V2 which are easily overpowered by the Ampersand.

I am amazed.


----------



## syazwaned

HeadphoneAddict said:


> So, it seems that I don't have any headphones that this Ampersand cannot drive well, with more than enough power for even the Original HiFiMan HE-6. However, as a "wire with gain" it sounds just like whatever source I use. So, if you pick the wrong source then the ampersand can sound as bright or as dark as the source. I find it to be utterly transparent, and a viable replacement for most desktop headphone amps as well.
> 
> My PALAB M1 Mini is not a good choice as the source when listening to HD-800/800s, as it is a little too bright for those; but wow does the M1 Mini + Ampersand sound good with my darker sounding HD-600 and HD-6XX!! Even the slightly brighter Grado HF-2 LE sound good with the M1 Mini alone or via Ampersand. But not so with the brighter HD-800/800s.
> 
> ...


Nice. I am getting my Chord Mojo 2 soon.. Think to have Ampersand as an amplifier as Mojo 2 output is not that powerful


----------



## ChrisLN

Received my Ampersand yesterday! Had a short listening session with the Susvara today and I am impressed. The setup is from a LPGT 4.4mm line out on medium gain (2V rms) into the Ampersand 4.4mm on high gain (on medium gain it does not sound as full as on high gain), then to the Susvara with the 4-pin XLR out. The sound is full and satisfactory, although the bass is not up to the authoritativeness of a Bakoon 13R. With this setting my normal listening volume is at 10-11 o’clock. Very impressive power indeed from such a small amp.


----------



## mgoodman (Feb 8, 2022)

We just got these and there is plenty of power. With Ampersand, in a balanced configuration HEDD can get uncomfortably loud, so you will need to turn it down. Another one checked off the list. 

So far, we have confirmed reports of great performance with Stealth, Susvara, Ananada, HE-6, HD-800/800s, and HEDD. 
Should have more DCA cans coming later in the week. Will report then.


----------



## mgoodman (Feb 8, 2022)

All pre-ordered units will be out the door by EOD tomorrow. This feels good.


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## newworld666 (Feb 8, 2022)

mgoodman said:


> We just got these and there is plenty of power. With Ampersand, in a balanced configuration HEDD can get uncomfortably loud, so you will need to turn it down. Another one checked off the list.
> 
> So far, we have confirmed reports of great performance with Stealth, Susvara, Ananada, HE-6, HD-800/800s, and HEDD.
> Should have more DCA cans coming later in the week. Will report then.



My sample is on the way for one week now... I hope to get it next week, as it seems it arrived in my country.

But that's already a promising good news, if HEDDphone One and DCA Stealth are perfectly powered by Ampersand. Though, it's usually not really a matter of available of volume level, but much more concerned with providing enough juice for the low and ultra low frequencies to get real deep kicks in the throat, both headphones need monstrous power for this...

If so, I really expect to give a try with my Sony WM1A and M8V2 .. It can be a more versatile solution on the way than my bulky M17 (difficult to carry in a pocket even with IEM plugged in).
It could be nice to use Vision Ears EXT + WM1A for street/underground/trains, and use the DCA Stealth + WM1A (or M8V2 plugged to my galaxy Zfold3) + Centrance Ampersand for trains/overseas flights/hotels/family/ ....

I have to wait a bit more now..


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

mgoodman said:


> All pre-ordered units will be out the door by EOD tomorrow. This feels good.


I didn’t know they were going to be shipping this soon. Nice. 

ChrisLN mentioned a change in sound between medium and high gain, sounding less full. But I did not spend a lot of time listening for changes, because I typically stayed in hi-gain most of the time with harder to drive headphones; except for when switching to extremely efficient portable headphones (Edition-X), where I had to turn the gain down to be able to use the volume knob past 9 o’clock 😂 

I briefly tried the HE-1000SE in medium gain and found it to still sound good with gibs of volume, but did not do any extensive listening in that setting. Typically I have not been hearing a change the sound quality with CEntrance products as the gain is changed, so it wasn’t something I thought needed to be tested. But he did this with Susvara Headphones which I imagine would not be properly driven with the lower power levels available in medium gain. 

If it really doesn’t sound as full in medium gain, as he stated, then it would be advised to just set the Ampersand volume to a fixed level at 12 o’clock in high gain, and control the volume with the source; or just use high gain with the volume knob set lower. I still suspect it was possibly a factor of the headphone that was chosen, and with Susvara in high gain you’d still have a wide range of volume knob travel to explore. 

Of all the headphones that I tested and reported on above, the only ones where medium hain would be a consideration, even though high gain works very well, are my Grado HF-2 and HE-1000se. My Edition-X are a low gain type of headphone. They don’t really need an amplifier more powerful than the typical portable DAC/amp, and even medium gain was overkill. 

I want to remind people that the source you pick for feeding the Ampersand has an impact on the overall sound, and I found that the Ampersand sounded very much like the source that I selected. But don’t forget that some sources that are designed to sound their best with between 16 ohm and 600 ohm impedance headphones may sound different when feeding a high impedance amplifier input.


----------



## ChrisLN

HeadphoneAddict said:


> I didn’t know they were going to be shipping this soon. Nice.
> 
> ChrisLN mentioned a change in sound between medium and high gain, sounding less full. But I did not spend a lot of time listening for changes, because I typically stayed in hi-gain most of the time with harder to drive headphones; except for when switching to extremely efficient portable headphones (Edition-X), where I had to turn the gain down to be able to use the volume knob past 9 o’clock 😂
> 
> ...



I tend to believe the differences between high and medium gain with the Susvara is most likely due to the Susvara’s notoriously pickiness on amps. This is well documented in the Susvara thread. I am satisfied personally with the way Susvara sounds on high gain, plus that was with the sources LPGT on only 2V rms output. I haven’t tried the high gain on LPGT line out with this. It may behave differently. 

Ampersand is indeed very much source dependent. So far I have tried feeding it with the LPGT, Cayin N8, and IBasso DX300 max. Ampersand sounded different with each source. For some reason DX300 max paring has made male vocal somewhat thinner. The N8 paring sounds warmer. LPGT paring is more neutral. So pairing is definitely important.


----------



## newworld666 (Feb 10, 2022)

I just got my sample (I expected it only next week, so that's good).... It'sso tiny and light compared to the best competitor I already own => the Class A Less BX2+.

Of course, I can't say much about the Ampersand, as I just plugged in the DCA Stealth and the FIIO M17 in pure balanced line-out mode......

I just tried to see what happens when I try to play the monstrous "Cradle to the Grave" from Max Richter => clearly it's still clipping a little between 49" to 1'10" ... as both Ampersand's led indicators turn on Red, I guess that input level is too high with 4V input.
I will try with the Kann Alpha as I can fix the voltage of the balanced line out (I can not on the FIIO M17).

Anyway... everything else I could listen in a pair of hours, really sounded promising !!! even very promising, though battery seems to drop really fast (probably more or less 3 hours ?).
I intend to use the Ampersand with the Sony WM1A (unfortunately with double amp mode), Centrance M8 (BT receiver 2.5mm Line out mode ) or Kann Alpha (4.4mm Line out mode 2V).... For my future trips (Job or Holidays), I still hope it should be the lightest and the best way to enjoy my DCA Stealth when I not at home or office (FIIO M17 is probably more adequate with a desktop stand and external 12V3A power supply) .


----------



## ExpatinJapan

@mgoodman kindly offered to send me a review sample of the Ampersand.

I have been a fan of CEntrance products, performance and sound since the Hifi-m8 crowd designed days - and have reviewed several of their products since.

For Ampersand i referred Michael to another reviewer who i think can do more justice to it than i could - due to their wide experience and understanding of amplifiers and also the hard to drive headphones available to them.

Best to have the right person for the job.

I look forward to reading further impressions and future reviews of the Ampersand.


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## HeadphoneAddict

newworld666 said:


> I just got my sample (I expected it only next week, so that's good).... It'sso tiny and light compared to the best competitor I already own => the Class A Less BX2+.
> 
> Of course, I can't say much about the Ampersand, as I just plugged in the DCA Stealth and the FIIO M17 in pure balanced line-out mode......
> 
> ...


Yes, those LEDs are definitely very helpful in tuning the input level that we feed it, so that we don’t overdrive the input. I find that it can accept fairly high input levels before the meters go red and you hear distortion.


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## newworld666 (Feb 10, 2022)

This evening, I am playing with the Sony WM1A + Ampersand (fix mode)+ HEDDphone One on one side ... and FIIO M17 + HEDDphone One (portable Headphone mode) on the other side...
I am trying to make a kind of A/B comparison, though I didn't have any real expectation with such difficult to drive headphone in low and ultra low frequencies, even the FIIO M17 in portable mode has some real difficulties to compete with his own desktop mode with a dedicated 12V/3A external power supply ?.

So, It seems to be much better than expected as this small Ampersand unit seems really able to produce very clean 2x3W (same power as FIIO M17) and can move rather properly the HEDDphone One. 

Probably, my next stage will be against the portable amp Less BX2+... Class A vs Class AB in action.


----------



## rodel808

Anyone can give impressions with the Hifiman HE6v2?


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## mgoodman (Feb 10, 2022)

newworld666 said:


> I just tried to see what happens when I try to play the monstrous "Cradle to the Grave" from Max Richter => clearly it's still clipping a little between 49" to 1'10" ... as both Ampersand's led indicators turn on Red, I guess that input level is too high with 4V input.
> I will try with the Kann Alpha as I can fix the voltage of the balanced line out (I can not on the FIIO M17).
> 
> Anyway... everything else I could listen in a pair of hours, really sounded promising !!! even very promising, though battery seems to drop really fast (probably more or less 3 hours ?).


The RED LEDs in the LED VU meter are calibrated to turn on when the input level is 2V RMS unbalanced or 4V RMS balanced. That's the maximum level Ampersand expects at the input and the amp is calibrated to be nearing clipping at that point (assuming max GAIN and VOLUME settings). So use the VU meter to guide your input levels. Turn down the levels at the DAP/DAC if you see red LEDs coming on a lot and you'll be fine.

Battery should give you more like 4-5 hours and that's with max power into very hungry cans and low dynamic range music, such as thrash metal  Classical with medium hungry cans will do better.


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## mgoodman

HeadphoneAddict said:


> If it really doesn’t sound as full in medium gain, as he stated, then it would be advised to just set the Ampersand volume to a fixed level at 12 o’clock in high gain, and control the volume with the source; or just use high gain with the volume knob set lower. I still suspect it was possibly a factor of the headphone that was chosen, and with Susvara in high gain you’d still have a wide range of volume knob travel to explore.


Any difference in sound between the medium gain and high gain switch setting is most likely due to how headphones open up with more power. If you raise the Volume with the Volume knob on Medium gain switch setting and lower the Volume with the Volume knob on High switch setting, so that the levels are matched in both cases, you should not hear any difference in SQ as the headphones would be driven with the exact same signal in both cases.

Please note that in the FIX gain setting, the Volume knob up top is disabled and Ampersand takes in full signal, so be careful with the output levels of the DAC/DAP to avoid blowing out the headphones and your ears. The setting of the Ampersand knob in FIX position doesn't matter as the pot is out of the circuit, so you can set it to 7pm, 12 pm or 3pm, etc. -- it won't make any difference in FIX position.


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## mgoodman

We just received the Quick Start Guides (QSG) for the Ampersand. In a rush to send the units out asap, we didn't place the QSG in some boxes. So if you got the Ampersand and didn't get the Quick Start Guide, here it is attached FYI.


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## HeadphoneAddict

mgoodman said:


> Any difference in sound between the medium gain and high gain switch setting is most likely due to how headphones open up with more power. If you raise the Volume with the Volume knob on Medium gain switch setting and lower the Volume with the Volume knob on High switch setting, so that the levels are matched in both cases, you should not hear any difference in SQ as the headphones would be driven with the exact same signal in both cases.
> 
> Please note that in the FIX gain setting, the Volume knob up top is disabled and Ampersand takes in full signal, so be careful with the output levels of the DAC/DAP to avoid blowing out the headphones and your ears. The setting of the Ampersand knob in FIX position doesn't matter as the pot is out of the circuit, so you can set it to 7pm, 12 pm or 3pm, etc. -- it won't make any difference in FIX position.


I think you meant to respond to ChrisLN, as I was saying something very similar.


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## mgoodman (Feb 11, 2022)

Just got done testing with DCA Stealth and DCA AEON 2 Noire. Both sound great with the Ampersand. Pictures below.

This was probably the most stringent test. I'm happy with the results. 

Aeon has a low 13 Ohm impedance and Stealth is 22 Ohm and slightly less efficient, per Dan Clark.  Both of these are very difficult to drive for a portable amp.

These are great headphones and I liked the sound. But sound quality is not what this post is about. As an engineer, I wanted to trip Ampersand's output protection circuit, so I drove these to the point when the circuit tripped and turn off the power to the amp. Basically, if there is an overload condition, rather than damage the amp and cause the user unnecessary frustration, the system just gracefully shuts down the power. The system recovers as soon as the signal level is lowered and this action is not harmful to the operation of the Ampersand or the headphones. We made sure you don't even hear a click. The amp just goes quiet for a moment and then quickly recovers. With the CANJAM LA prototype, level was adequate, but since then, we made significant improvements before going to production. I tested with the shipping, production Ampersand.

Both headphone models get unbearably loud for my taste. I drove the inputs into clipping so I could see the RED LEDs, switched the gain to MAX and raised the Volume so I could engage the output short circuit protection and it would cut out. Listening levels were so uncomfortably loud at that point that I could only stand it for about 10 seconds. I would NEVER EVER listen at that level. When I backed the Volume down to the level at which I could listen for more than 10 seconds, the amp performed completely fine.

So here is the list of headphones we successfully tested to date with Production Ampersand:

Aeon 2 Noir, Stealth, Susvara, Ananada, HE-6, HD-800/800s, and HEDD.

I expect more are coming shortly. All preorder units are likely already received by their customers.


----------



## ChrisLN

mgoodman said:


> Any difference in sound between the medium gain and high gain switch setting is most likely due to how headphones open up with more power. If you raise the Volume with the Volume knob on Medium gain switch setting and lower the Volume with the Volume knob on High switch setting, so that the levels are matched in both cases, you should not hear any difference in SQ as the headphones would be driven with the exact same signal in both cases.
> 
> Please note that in the FIX gain setting, the Volume knob up top is disabled and Ampersand takes in full signal, so be careful with the output levels of the DAC/DAP to avoid blowing out the headphones and your ears. The setting of the Ampersand knob in FIX position doesn't matter as the pot is out of the circuit, so you can set it to 7pm, 12 pm or 3pm, etc. -- it won't make any difference in FIX position.



So I tried the 2 gain settings again and carefully matched the volume, mgoodman is right, I couldn’t really tell a difference…


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## newworld666

mgoodman said:


> Just got done testing with DCA Stealth and DCA AEON 2 Noire. Both sound great with the Ampersand. Pictures below.
> 
> This was probably the most stringent test. I'm happy with the results. Both of these headphones are 13 Ohms, which is very difficult to drive for a portable amp.
> 
> ...




With the DCA Stealth I could notice several times that luckily sound was cut out if by mistake volume knob went too far and sound came back as soon the volume was lowered !!! 
That's a very good and very important feature ...

As I feel the volume knob is rather far too easy to be moved, I decided to switch the Ampersand on FIX volume out .. That will be less risky with the Sony WM1A as I don't have  a fix line-out.
I was expecting that in the box you would include the plastic volume protection we could see on the prototypes when we pre-ordered it, I think it could be necessary if I intend to use the Ampersand with some DAP with true fixed line out..

Is there a way to buy such thing ?


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## ChrisLN

newworld666 said:


> With the DCA Stealth I could notice several times that luckily sound was cut out if by mistake volume knob went too far and sound came back as soon the volume was lowered !!!
> That's a very good and very important feature ...
> 
> As I feel the volume knob is rather far too easy to be moved, I decided to switch the Ampersand on FIX volume out .. That will be less risky with the Sony WM1A as I don't have  a fix line-out.
> ...



+1… I was thinking about the same thing too.


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## mgoodman

For stacking -- we've got two options -- vertical or horizontal:

https://centrance.com/store/Ampersand-Cover-p442788782

https://centrance.com/store/Commander-Console-2U-p438256867


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## newworld666

mgoodman said:


> For stacking -- we've got two options -- vertical or horizontal:
> 
> https://centrance.com/store/Ampersand-Cover-p442788782
> 
> https://centrance.com/store/Commander-Console-2U-p438256867



I just tried to order it .. but


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## ChrisLN

mgoodman said:


> For stacking -- we've got two options -- vertical or horizontal:
> 
> https://centrance.com/store/Ampersand-Cover-p442788782
> 
> https://centrance.com/store/Commander-Console-2U-p438256867



Order placed for a cover. Thanks.


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## mgoodman

newworld666 said:


> I just tried to order it .. but


Where do you live? I'll have the guys fix this tomorrow.


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## newworld666

mgoodman said:


> Where do you live? I'll have the guys fix this tomorrow.


France


----------



## arijitroy2

newworld666 said:


> I just tried to order it .. but


I also saw the same in disbelief when ordering to Denmark! 

Can you give a short impression of this with the BX2 plus which I have?


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## newworld666

arijitroy2 said:


> I also saw the same in disbelief when ordering to Denmark!
> 
> Can you give a short impression of this with the BX2 plus which I have?



It will take much more time for me to make a full comparison of sound quality between Ampersand and Less Bx2+ .. But at least, surprisingly, I can notice directly that Ampersand is more powerful than less Bx2+ by a quite big margin (I am on max vol on both amps and my Sony WM1A is the variable source). 
The difference of volume level makes it difficult, a direct any A/B comparison, as it's difficult to be fast enough switching between the 2 amps and get more or less the same vol level.

Then, this morning, I could reach a bit more than 4 hours playing time (with the DCA Stealth) which seems to be a bit more than what I can get with the BX2+ (less than 4 hours nearer 3h1/2). 

The form factor of the Ampersand is definitely more convenient (smaller and lighter), I really like it

Actually, I also really like the Class A sound of the BX2+, which seems to offer maybe a kind of larger stage than the Class AB of the Ampersand..  this needs to be confirmed in the next few weeks.


----------



## arijitroy2

newworld666 said:


> It will take much more time for me to make a full comparison of sound quality between Ampersand and Less Bx2+ .. But at least, surprisingly, I can notice directly that Ampersand is more powerful than less Bx2+ by a quite big margin (I am on max vol on both amps and my Sony WM1A is the variable source).
> The difference of volume level makes it difficult, a direct any A/B comparison, as it's difficult to be fast enough switching between the 2 amps and get more or less the same vol level.
> 
> Then, this morning, I could reach a bit more than 4 hours playing time (with the DCA Stealth) which seems to be a bit more than what I can get with the BX2+ (less than 4 hours nearer 3h1/2).
> ...


Thanks for the impressions! Yeah I wish the form factor of the BX2 was better, little less wide to match the DAP!

But I do get around 4-5 hrs battery life, I mostly only use high gain on that! I just also bought the M17 so not really sure if I need one more external amp now, its an overkill for iems anyway!

But its good to know there is an amp now that can drive these hard to drive headphones at a quite nice potential, since people like me who hate sitting in one place will benefit quite a bit from!


----------



## newworld666

arijitroy2 said:


> Thanks for the impressions! Yeah I wish the form factor of the BX2 was better, little less wide to match the DAP!
> 
> But I do get around 4-5 hrs battery life, I mostly only use high gain on that! I just also bought the M17 so not really sure if I need one more external amp now, its an overkill for iems anyway!
> 
> But its good to know there is an amp now that can drive these hard to drive headphones at a quite nice potential, since people like me who hate sitting in one place will benefit quite a bit from!



Actually .. I am sure the M17 will be my main DAP/AMO at Home and Office and I will be free to listen to music freely where I want there.

I ordered the Ampersand before the FIIO M17 was announced, but I imagine now that for travelling, as I also use an IEM like the Vision Ears EXT, so, it must be more comfortable to use a much smaller DAP than the heavy brick M17 in the street/metro/bus/etc, and in the evening in the hotel rooms use the Ampersand to amplify the small DAP (WM1A/WM1AM2) and plug the DCA Stealth and enjoy the SQ of a superb combo. 
I will see what happens... I won't replace the excellent Fiio M17.


----------



## arijitroy2

newworld666 said:


> Actually .. I am sure the M17 will be my main DAP/AMO at Home and Office and I will be free to listen to music freely where I want there.
> 
> I ordered the Ampersand before the FIIO M17 was announced, but I imagine now that for travelling, as I also use an IEM like the Vision Ears EXT, so, it must be more comfortable to use a much smaller DAP than the heavy brick M17 in the street/metro/bus/etc, and in the evening in the hotel rooms use the Ampersand to amplify the small DAP (WM1A/WM1AM2) and plug the DCA Stealth and enjoy the SQ of a superb combo.
> I will see what happens... I won't replace the excellent Fiio M17.


Makes sense, but where does the M17 feature in that scenario? I am thinking of getting Diana Phi for M17 to drive, Phonix is on the way also.

I dont do headphones lately but might as well get one but needs to be comfortable enough to wear for hours!


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## newworld666

At home and Office I have a FIIO M17 desktop stand in both places and at home, I really like to listen music in various places with the M17, living room, bedroom, garden, and so on... I don't want to be stuck to the desktops.
Basically, I am not sure to have a mind to walk in the street with the M17.


----------



## arijitroy2

newworld666 said:


> At home and Office I have a FIIO M17 desktop stand in both places and at home, I really like to listen music in various places with the M17, living room, bedroom, garden, and so on... I don't want to be stuck to the desktops.
> Basically, I am not sure to have a mind to walk in the street with the M17.


Haha fair enough! Same reason why I sold my desktop gear too!


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## mgoodman

newworld666 said:


> I just tried to order it .. but


Could you email us via our website and let us know your address. We need to debug this. https//www.centrance.com -- scroll down and there is a box to email us.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

newworld666 said:


> At home and Office I have a FIIO M17 desktop stand in both places and at home, I really like to listen music in various places with the M17, living room, bedroom, garden, and so on... I don't want to be stuck to the desktops.
> Basically, I am not sure to have a mind to walk in the street with the M17.


I don’t use my desktop DAC and amps much either. I just tend to carry my BlueDAC or my HiFiM8 V2 around the house with me to where it is needed. 

I was more often using my MacBook laptop than I was a using desktop computer, but last summer I built a gaming PC and I keep my HiFiM8 V1 connected to it 24/7. 

I gave my son my DACmini as a graduation present from college in 2020; but he also has the blueDAC, M8 V1, and V2, and he leaves the DACmini connected to his gaming PC. We both use the CEntrance DACs to feed our Audioengine speakers.


----------



## mgoodman

arijitroy2 said:


> I also saw the same in disbelief when ordering to Denmark!
> 
> Can you give a short impression of this with the BX2 plus which I have?


Could you email us via our website and let us know your address. We need to debug this. https//www.centrance.com -- scroll down and there is a box to email us.


----------



## Alexnova

Hi Mr.Goodman. I'm really considering getting the Ampersand, but do you have any plans on creating a separate DAC to go with it? I saw the HiFiM8V2/Ampersand stack, but the HiFiM8 seems to be more oriented as a "swiss army knife". Was wondering if you think you could get even more performance on a dedicated DAC product to pair with Ampersand?


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## HeadphoneAddict (Feb 13, 2022)

Alexnova said:


> Hi Mr.Goodman. I'm really considering getting the Ampersand, but do you have any plans on creating a separate DAC to go with it? I saw the HiFiM8V2/Ampersand stack, but the HiFiM8 seems to be more oriented as a "swiss army knife". Was wondering if you think you could get even more performance on a dedicated DAC product to pair with Ampersand?


DACport Pro has dual 3-pin XLR balanced line-out in this form factor, so it would need a bulky adapter to take the line-out down to a 4.4mm balanced plug - maybe they'll do a version with a 4.4mm output?

I do think that connecting to a true line-out would be beneficial in many cases, rather than feeding a headphone out into it, as many headphone amplifiers may color the sound. *However*, the HiFiM8 V2 is pretty darn uncolored and transparent and a true line-out may not be better; while my BlueDAC is a little warmer and punchier sounding, which makes it a good source when using my HD800s out of the Ampersand.

https://centrance.com/dacport-pro/


----------



## mgoodman

HeadphoneAddict said:


> DACport Pro has dual 3-pin XLR balanced line-out in this form factor, so it would need a bulky adapter to take the line-out down to a 4.4mm balanced plug - maybe they'll do a version with a 4.4mm output?
> 
> I do think that connecting to a true line-out would be beneficial in many cases, rather than feeding a headphone out into it, as many headphone amplifiers may color the sound. *However*, the HiFiM8 V2 is pretty darn uncolored and transparent and a true line-out may not be better; while my BlueDAC is a little warmer and punchier sounding, which makes it a good source when using my HD800s out of the Ampersand.
> 
> https://centrance.com/dacport-pro/


The headphone amp on DACport Pro is not colored, so it's a safe choice for line out.


----------



## mgoodman (Feb 13, 2022)

Alexnova said:


> Hi Mr.Goodman. I'm really considering getting the Ampersand, but do you have any plans on creating a separate DAC to go with it? I saw the HiFiM8V2/Ampersand stack, but the HiFiM8 seems to be more oriented as a "swiss army knife". Was wondering if you think you could get even more performance on a dedicated DAC product to pair with Ampersand?


How about this?

https://centrance.com/store/DACport-HD-p53351211

Right now we have 20% off for Valentine's Day on anything in the store, so the DAC is almost free through Monday. Coupon code VDAY20.
mention this thread and we will throw in this cable for free:

https://centrance.com/store/3-5-mm-to-3-5-mm-Shielded-Stereo-Cable-1M-3-ft-p337787053


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

mgoodman said:


> The headphone amp on DACport Pro is not colored, so it's a safe choice for line out.


If the DacPort Pro amplifier is similar to that of the HiFiM8 V2 then I can absolutely believe that. It’s a wonderfully transparent amp. If I had the DACPort Pro I’d still want to try the XLR output as my source if I could, but I’m sure the headphone output is also good. 

I am still going to look for cables to try use my desktop Perfectwave Mk 2 DAC with the Ampersand, just to see how it sounds - this would be the same cables one would need if using the DACPort Pro. 

I probably won’t use it that way long-term, because I do most of my MacBook listening with a portable DAC and amp, with my MacBook on a folding TV table. My desktop DAC and amp are connected to my gaming PC (5950X/3080Ti). 

So far Ampersand is fantastic with the balanced 2.5mm output and the 4-pin balanced output of the HiFiM8 V2, as well as the 2.5mm balanced output of the BlueDAC. The BlueDAC sound is ever so slightly punchier than the M8, by a small degree, but it makes the HD800s slightly more fun to listen to with that combo with EQ. 

The Palab M1 Mini 4.4mm output is very nice source to feed the Ampersand with my darker sounding headphones like HD600 and HD6XX.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

My gaming PC with ESS DAC on front panel feeding Ampersand.


----------



## Alexnova

mgoodman said:


> How about this?
> 
> https://centrance.com/store/DACport-HD-p53351211
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your generous offer.

I actually purchased the DACport HD earlier this month from the store. I love it and I just purchased the Cerene DB a few days ago too.

I didn't realize you guys sold this as a "HiFi bundle"


----------



## BasilFawlty (Feb 21, 2022)

Just tested my Ampersand with my M8 yesterday and can just say WOW! Sound is clear natural and my Audeze LCD-4 really needed the extra boost from Ampersand. Was on the edge with the HiFi-M8 V2 but now a perfect combination. I love the real volume button on the ampersand and with the tray (console) I got from CEntrance they are sided by side instead of a clumsy stack.

I didn’t know that to be able to enjoy Apples Lossless I need to use a cable since Bluetooth isn’t able to transfer lossless audio yet. So when at home I use the combination and when traveling just the M8 with my Audeze Sine20 electrostatic IEM.

the only negative - when you found the perfect system - you loose the interest to experiment with other brands/products! I use CEntrance at my desk as well, the old system with two speakers and I added a small subwoofer.

So at least for me the Ampersand was a great addition for my “heavy” electrostatic headphones and I love CEntronics thinking out of the box with a stand that holds both the preamp/DAC and the Ampersand side by side. Congratulations Michael to a real hit!

will come back when used it for a month or so.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

BasilFawlty said:


> Just tested my Ampersand with my M8 yesterday and can just say WOW! Sound is clear natural and my Audeze LCD-4 really needed the extra boost from Ampersand. Was on the edge with the HiFi-M8 V2 but now a perfect combination. I love the real volume button on the ampersand and with the tray (console) I got from CEntrance they are sided by side instead of a clumsy stack.
> 
> I didn’t know that to be able to enjoy Apples Lossless I need to use a cable since Bluetooth isn’t able to transfer lossless audio yet. So when at home I use the combination and when traveling just the M8 with my Audeze Sine20 electrostatic IEM.
> 
> ...


I agree that you sometimes lose interest when you have the perfect system, but getting to try new things also can rekindle a lost interest in listening to music in the first place.

I think you meant planar magnetic instead of electrostatic?


----------



## BasilFawlty

Yes I did! Thanks!


----------



## BasilFawlty

I was looking at Audeze King II just for fun even if I am happy with what I have.


----------



## newworld666 (Feb 22, 2022)

It's still a bit early for me to be totally comfortable with the new Ampersand, but after spending a long time comparing it with my Less BX2, I was surprised that a much smaller unit as the Ampersand was giving very comparable sound quality results, and even be a bit more powerful .

Now I am spending for a few days some more hours to compare my target "on the way" combo which is intended to be the "Sony WM1A (Low Gain) + Ampersand" + Vision Ears EXT or DCA Stealth against my already impressive but still a bit too bulky FIIO M17 + DC12V3A Powerbank for enhanced audio mode.
I am listening some nice Hires tracks coming from some DSD like Hiromi Hueara  / Manu Katché or hires flac from Ibrahim Maalouf ...
Again, I am impressed that such a small Amp unit can really be comparable to a FIIO M17 even connected to an external power unit of 12V/3A.

Last August, after mgoodman said, they needed to rework a bit the design of their Ampersand, as it was really falling short with DCA Planars (Noire), so from that annopucement, I was not expecting anymore that this amp would provide enough power with low impedance and low sensitivity Headphones. So these last ten days, are really a surprise to drive so nicely the 23 Ohms 92db of the DCA Stealth ...

Till now, I was thinking the Less Bx2+ and Fiio M17 were probably the only more or less portable units able to drive the DCA Stealth and HEDDphone One => clearly the Ampersand can manage it very well too.

For people who do appreciate, like I do, the Sony WM1A with some custom firmware (MrWalkman), it can be directly plugged with the 4.4mm in low gain to the Ampersand and drive the DCA Stealth with an impressive sound quality from ultra low frequencies to high frequencies. It can even work in an enhanced mode for CD quality with some DSP DSEE-AI.. with no hiss at all or any harshness ...
Then on the way, when I am no more in a plane train or hotel, I just unplug the Ampersand and DCA Stealth from the WM1A and I switch to a Vision Ears EXT or Sennheiser IE900 to be plugged to the 4.4mm output (High Gain) and I can walk in the street be in the bus/underground with the WM1A in my shirt pocket and IEM in my ears, which is much more difficult with the bulky FIIO M17.
I would already say, even if I need some more weeks/months to discover fully the Ampersand, that at least, it's worth to give a real try to this amp for people who need a portable solution beside their usual pocketable DAP to drive most of the difficult headphones to drive .... worth to do


----------



## ChrisLN

Found a perfect size case for carrying the Ampersand around… 

MGZNMTY Portable Hard Travel Case... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B092HK2SSM?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share


----------



## HeadphoneAddict (Feb 22, 2022)

I posted the case I use in the HiFiM8 V2 thread, and I have two for my M8 V2 and Ampersand. The elastic band is starting to stretch out and loosen though - it still works unless I try to put something much smaller in the case and then it's too loose. I'm going to look for something that can hold both.

Canboc Hard Drive Carrying Case





Also fits with the CEntrance protective cover that will help keep the volume from changing if you bump it and blowing out your headphones (in my case mostly good for preventing you from knocking off the volume knob or scratching the top if you drop it).


----------



## rodel808

Received the Ampersand today. I didn't realize how small and light weight the device is yet how powerful it is. Tested with the following cans: Sennheiser HD580, Aeon Noir, Hifiman HE6se v2. They all sounded great and to my surprise even the HE6se didn't feel underpowered.  It also sounds much more transparent compared to my desktop amps, Matrix Audio HPA3B, Schiit Lyr 2 and Ray Samuels Audio XP7. Quite pleased with this purchase. The only complaint I have is that the protective cover hides the VU meter but really is not a big deal. I might take a drill to the cover and make some holes aligned with the led to allow it to shine through.


----------



## warrenpchi

So I'm here listening to the CEntrance + HEDD gear that I mentioned in the CanJam NYC 2022 preview video:

*CEntrance HiFi-M8 V2 (bass and treble boosts engaged) ▸ 2.5 mm output to 4.4mm input **▸ CEntrance Ampersand (~11:00 volume; high gain) ▸ XLR output ▸ HEDD Audio HEDDPhone*

F••k me.  The above system hits almost every headphone audiophile sweet spot I can think of.  Thanks to both tone controls on the HiFi-M8, and the ample output power of the Ampersand, I am getting impactful bass, very present mid-range (inherent to the HEDDphone I think), and much air and sparkle up top.  Imaging is very precise, and the separation afforded by this chain's impressive detail/resolution capabilities is sublime for symphonic works.

*New York Philharmonic, New York Choral Artists, Alan Gilbert:*  Mass in B Minor, BWV 232: IV. Gloria in excelsis
https://song.link/us/i/659361748

That very capable detail and resolution also helps a great deal with piano and percussion, especially in terms of texture.

*Cameron Graves:*  Adam & Eve
https://song.link/us/i/1189249472

*Taylor Eigsti:*  Get Your Hopes Up
https://song.link/us/i/1581690391

That said, this rig is also immensely satisfying with my guilty pleasure music as well.

*Doja Cat (featuring SZA):*  Kiss Me More
https://song.link/us/i/1486263180

I didn't think that an AMT driver would have the warmth and visceral bass that I'm hearing with this track, but I'm pleasantly surprised that in this rig, it does.  

I have to say, I'm astounded by what this rig is capable of... all the more so since it's in a portable (or transportable) form factor.  I could easily imagine many a Head-Fier making this rig their endgame, serving double duty as a desktop and portable rig, because it has the sonic chops to be just that for the vast majority of listeners.

Weight could be an issue for some though, as the HEDDphone by itself weighs over 40% more than the HiFi-M8 V2 and Ampersand combined.  That said, weight hasn't been too bad for me thus far.  I've been listening to Audeze since 2013, with some Abyss thrown in, so I've been training for this moment nearly my entire Head-Fi life.

But yeah, this synergy is mighty impressive... and that this entire chain can be had for below the price of a single flagship headphone right now blows my mind.


----------



## mgoodman

BasilFawlty said:


> Just tested my Ampersand with my M8 yesterday and can just say WOW! Sound is clear natural and my Audeze LCD-4 really needed the extra boost from Ampersand. Was on the edge with the HiFi-M8 V2 but now a perfect combination. I love the real volume button on the ampersand and with the tray (console) I got from CEntrance they are sided by side instead of a clumsy stack.
> ...
> 
> So at least for me the Ampersand was a great addition for my “heavy” electrostatic headphones and I love CEntrance thinking out of the box with a stand that holds both the preamp/DAC and the Ampersand side by side. Congratulations Michael to a real hit!


Many thanks for your comments. Really appreciated!


----------



## mgoodman

rodel808 said:


> Received the Ampersand today. I didn't realize how small and light weight the device is yet how powerful it is. Tested with the following cans: Sennheiser HD580, Aeon Noir, Hifiman HE6se v2. They all sounded great and to my surprise even the HE6se didn't feel underpowered.  It also sounds much more transparent compared to my desktop amps, Matrix Audio HPA3B, Schiit Lyr 2 and Ray Samuels Audio XP7. Quite pleased with this purchase. The only complaint I have is that the protective cover hides the VU meter but really is not a big deal. I might take a drill to the cover and make some holes aligned with the led to allow it to shine through.


Glad you like the sound. I will cook up a better cover, with LED holes. Thank you for the suggestion!


----------



## rodel808

Question about charging.  So there are 4 leds. With the unit turned off and usb c connected the left most led is lit up indicating that it is charging.  Will the other 3 leds light up as the unit charges to full?


----------



## mgoodman

Based on comments by Warren Chi, would anyone be interested in a bundle that contains HiFi-M8, Ampersand, HEDD cans and balanced interconnects? Obviously, at a way better price compared to buying these things individually... Let me know!


----------



## mgoodman

rodel808 said:


> Question about charging.  So there are 4 leds. With the unit turned off and usb c connected the left most led is lit up indicating that it is charging.  Will the other 3 leds light up as the unit charges to full?


The Charging LED is somewhat independent of the 3 battery level LEDs. Charging happens whether the unit is on or off. But the battery LEDs are only on if the unit is on. They are turned off when the unit is off, in order to avoid unnecessarily draining the battery with the lights. 

So turn the Ampersand on to see the battery level and then turn it off if you don't need to use it right away.


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

mgoodman said:


> The Charging LED is somewhat independent of the 3 battery level LEDs. Charging happens whether the unit is on or off. But the battery LEDs are only on if the unit is on. They are turned off when the unit is off, in order to avoid unnecessarily draining the battery with the lights.
> 
> So turn the Ampersand on to see the battery level and then turn it off if you don't need to use it right away.


I never asked or checked yet, but does the Ampersand have an auto shut off feature when it’s been idle for a while?


----------



## mgoodman

HeadphoneAddict said:


> I never asked or checked yet, but does the Ampersand have an auto shut off feature when it’s been idle for a while?


No, it doesn't. It's almost impossible to determine if a pause in the music is intentional


----------



## warrenpchi

mgoodman said:


> Based on comments by Warren Chi, would anyone be interested in a bundle that contains HiFi-M8, Ampersand, HEDD cans and balanced interconnects? Obviously, at a way better price compared to buying these things individually... Let me know!



Speaking for myself, I think that'd be great!    I would imagine quite a few people would agree after hearing that rig at CanJam NYC in a few days.


----------



## EJD87

This is a VERY good sounding combo. But honestly, I have to wonder… do I have extremely sensitive ears, or are people just listening to their gear at incredible volumes? Because I’m at 11 o’clock on medium(!!!) gain with -6db reduction in Roon eq and the volume is perfect for me; even just going to noon is a little uncomfortable. This is a righteously powerful little amp, but do folks REALLY need more power than this for ‘phones like the HE-6 or Susvara? Am I missing or misunderstanding something about the benefits of powerful amps for hungry planars?


----------



## SDBiotek (Mar 3, 2022)

EJD87 said:


> This is a VERY good sounding combo. But honestly, I have to wonder… do I have extremely sensitive ears, or are people just listening to their gear at incredible volumes? Because I’m at 11 o’clock on medium(!!!) gain with -6db reduction in Roon eq and the volume is perfect for me; even just going to noon is a little uncomfortable. This is a righteously powerful little amp, but do folks REALLY need more power than this for ‘phones like the HE-6 or Susvara? Am I missing or misunderstanding something about the benefits of powerful amps for hungry planars?


Yes, a lot of folks do listen at unsafe levels, unfortunately. Also, the maximum rated power a manufacturer may recommend to power a set of headphones doesn't  mean that much power is required to drive them. And a long time ago, the original Hifiman  HE-6 was too much of a load for many desktop headphone amps. Conventional wisdom regarding  power requirements is often wrong. Time and technology and innovation from companies like CEntrance lead to powerhouse portable products.
I can very easily  drive the DCA Stealth on medium gain on the Ampersand, even just using headphone out on any of my portable players. Using the Cayin N3Pro, the combination makes it sound much  like I'm using a large desktop tube amp. It is nice to have the extra headroom and a large usable volume range on the Ampersand.


----------



## EJD87

This really is a fantastic amp. Only thing is that I get an audible buzz when I have it plugged in and charging, but that might be because it’s on the same power strip as my PC. If you need to play and charge, I’ve found that it’s dead silent on a power bank!


----------



## HeadphoneAddict

EJD87 said:


> This really is a fantastic amp. Only thing is that I get an audible buzz when I have it plugged in and charging, but that might be because it’s on the same power strip as my PC. If you need to play and charge, I’ve found that it’s dead silent on a power bank!


Try a UPS on the PC and Ampersand, and see if that cleans up the power. You may find that it isolates the PC from the Ampersand better, or maybe use a UPS that also has it's own USB ports and plug it into the UPS USB port. 

In my case, I don't get any noise from my MacBook Pro 16" when charging it from that, and if I charge from the wall I don't listen to it at the same time. I think I will try plugging it into the USB port on the front of my PC the next time that I plug the Ampersand into the front panel audio (ESS DAC) of the PC.


----------



## warrenpchi

I'm using a powered USB hub, no problems with it FWIW.


----------



## mgoodman

EJD87 said:


> This really is a fantastic amp. Only thing is that I get an audible buzz when I have it plugged in and charging, but that might be because it’s on the same power strip as my PC. If you need to play and charge, I’ve found that it’s dead silent on a power bank!


Could you kindly email me to get this buzz checked out? It shouldn't be there... You can either email through the website -- or by replying to an email from us. I would appreciate it.


----------



## EJD87

mgoodman said:


> Could you kindly email me to get this buzz checked out? It shouldn't be there... You can either email through the website -- or by replying to an email from us. I would appreciate it.


I contacted you through the website, but as I stated in the note, I’m almost positive it’s down to how I’m powering the amp instead of anything being wrong with it.


----------



## newworld666 (Mar 14, 2022)

I do not really intend to use the Ampersand with the M8 V2 (for my DCA Stealth), but as I am waiting for some significant capacitors mods on my Sony WM1A by Nayparm in England, I am playing a bit with at my Office to listen to Qobuz from my Z Fold 3 via BT to the M8 V2 + Ampersand + an extra 15000mha Zendure X5 for a full day of music with a difficult DCA Stealth... nothing less then very impressive Sound Quality.
All are fixed together with some neodyme magnet ribbons.




It's, of course, not pocketable at all, but easy to transport this pack where I want in my office or at home, with a sound quality not really very far from my desktop combo ...


----------



## BasilFawlty

Do you want to buy it or not?


----------



## mgoodman

EJD87 said:


> I contacted you through the website, but as I stated in the note, I’m almost positive it’s down to how I’m powering the amp instead of anything being wrong with it.


We reviewed the email and agree with you. It's about the power loops in the system, most likely. Sadly, no product is immune to this and with computer setups you need to be careful to use outlets that are closest together.


----------



## BasilFawlty

Just sold my Audeze LCD-4 and my Ampersand is listed here under classified. Reason I am selling is that I will travel for some time so bought KSE 1500 instead and will use it with my HiFi-M8. Great combination and easier to carry on airplanes . Ampersand is like brand new and price is a bargain. Bought it directly from CEntrance two months ago. Pitty to sell it but it does not go with the SHURE at all.


----------



## mgoodman

BasilFawlty said:


> Just sold my Audeze LCD-4 and my Ampersand is listed here under classified. Reason I am selling is that I will travel for some time so bought KSE 1500 instead and will use it with my HiFi-M8. Great combination and easier to carry on airplanes . Ampersand is like brand new and price is a bargain. Bought it directly from CEntrance two months ago. Pitty to sell it but it does not go with the SHURE at all.


What's the issue with the Shure?


----------



## warrenpchi

mgoodman said:


> What's the issue with the Shure?



It's a stat IEM that has specific power requirements, and includes a customized DAC/amp to satisfy those requirements.  IOW, it's its own ecosystem.


----------



## BasilFawlty

No issues with the Shure! Works perfect with the CEntrance HiFi-M8 V2 but no need for Ampersand with the Shure.


----------



## alsorkin

Just wanted to report that using the combo of M8 V2 and Ampersand and the Bluesound Node 2021 USB output of Radio Paradsise MQA streams with my ZMF Atrium open headphone is a sublime experience.


----------



## ngoshawk

My review of the wonderfully musical, equally at home as a desktop unit, the Ampersand is now live in the gallery. An excellent companion to the M8V2!

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/centrance-ampersand.25824/reviews#review-28429

Cheers.


----------



## Jeffyue

ngoshawk said:


> My review of the wonderfully musical, equally at home as a desktop unit, the Ampersand is now live in the gallery. An excellent companion to the M8V2!
> 
> https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/centrance-ampersand.25824/reviews#review-28429
> 
> Cheers.


Can compare Ampersand vs. C9 pls?


----------



## ngoshawk (May 2, 2022)

Jeffyue said:


> Can compare Ampersand vs. C9 pls?


The C9 is 2.5x the price unless you find a used one. It also provides a richer, more vibrant sound; but with a warmer signature as well. It is quite powerful, too along with more connectivity options. Battery power is very good on both, but the C9 allows the user to change rechargeable batteries on their own, giving longer battery use than the OEM batteries.

If I had to choose one, without $ being an objective, the C9 wins. I do love that sound. But if price comes into play, it’s the Ampersand hands down. Or, you get the Ampersand and the M8V2 and still save $500 over the C9. Then you could get a really decent DAP or mid-fi headphone/IEM like the HiFiMan Edition XS or a used ZMF or Audeze. For the same price spent, I’d go with the CEntrance products.

Cheers and I hope this helps.


----------



## Jeffyue

ngoshawk said:


> The C9 is 2.5x the price unless you find a used one. It also provides a richer, more vibrant sound; but with a warmer signature as well. It is quite powerful, too along with more connectivity options. Battery power is very good on both, but the C9 allows the user to change rechargeable batteries on their own, giving longer battery use than the OEM batteries.
> 
> If I had to choose one, without $ being an objective, the C9 wins. I do love that sound. But if price comes into play, it’s the Ampersand hands down. Or, you get the Ampersand and the M8V2 and still save $500 over the C9. Then you could get a really decent DAP or mid-fi headphone/IEM like the HiFiMan Edition XS or a used ZMF or Audeze. For the same price spent, I’d go with the CEntrance products.
> 
> Cheers and I hope this helps.


Thanks very much for your valuable insight.
Appreciate much.


----------



## northsider

Good evening.Some minor help needed..Have ampersand virtually use only with I pod Touch 7G..Ordered what I thought was lightning to USB 3 connector..Made mistake and USB to camera connector arrived😔Have DDLightning to USB which are fine ..But if I knock against them everything stops.What connection can I buy for USB to Lightning for I pod? Many thanks John


----------



## warrenpchi

The Ampersand is purely an amp, and has no DAC functions.  Luckily, your iPod Touch 7G has a built-in DAC, as well as a headphone jack.  So, any generic aux cable (3.5 mm TRS male to 3.5 mm TRS male) will do.


----------



## northsider

warrenpchi said:


> The Ampersand is purely an amp, and has no DAC functions.  Luckily, your iPod Touch 7G has a built-in DAC, as well as a headphone jack.  So, any generic aux cable (3.5 mm TRS male to 3.5 mm TRS male) will do.


Mr Warrenpchi Thank you so much for your help Am much obliged.John


----------



## John Blackshear

newworld666 said:


> This evening, I am playing with the Sony WM1A + Ampersand (fix mode)+ HEDDphone One on one side ... and FIIO M17 + HEDDphone One (portable Headphone mode) on the other side...
> I am trying to make a kind of A/B comparison, though I didn't have any real expectation with such difficult to drive headphone in low and ultra low frequencies, even the FIIO M17 in portable mode has some real difficulties to compete with his own desktop mode with a dedicated 12V/3A external power supply ?.
> 
> So, It seems to be much better than expected as this small Ampersand unit seems really able to produce very clean 2x3W (same power as FIIO M17) and can move rather properly the HEDDphone One.
> ...


So, you found the ampersand able to really make the HEDDPHONE sing?


----------



## SCBob

Has anyone had the opportunity to listen to the iFi Diablo compared to the Ampersand with or without the M8V2? Thank you.


----------



## newworld666

John Blackshear said:


> So, you found the ampersand able to really make the HEDDPHONE sing?


As a rather portable device, it's the best amp I could find till now to move the HEDDphone One, even the FIIO M17 if set in DC enhanced mode is not at the same level.... 
But with same DAP as sources, I still find the desktop Monolith THX887 with an iFi ipower Elite 24V is still a bit better in terms of impact in low frequencies somewhere faster (around 100 to 500hz)... 
I imagine high end DAC +AMP should probably bring the HEDDphone to another SQ level, but I can't test it (I prefer to invest in portable devices for music).


----------



## jjss

ngoshawk said:


> The C9 is 2.5x the price unless you find a used one. It also provides a richer, more vibrant sound; but with a warmer signature as well. It is quite powerful, too along with more connectivity options. Battery power is very good on both, but the C9 allows the user to change rechargeable batteries on their own, giving longer battery use than the OEM batteries.
> 
> If I had to choose one, without $ being an objective, the C9 wins. I do love that sound. But if price comes into play, it’s the Ampersand hands down. Or, you get the Ampersand and the M8V2 and still save $500 over the C9. Then you could get a really decent DAP or mid-fi headphone/IEM like the HiFiMan Edition XS or a used ZMF or Audeze. For the same price spent, I’d go with the CEntrance products.
> 
> Cheers and I hope this helps.



I have both the Ampersand and the M8V2, and had the C9 on loan for a week to audition. For both, the setup I've used: AKSE200 / iPad+iFi iSilencer as sources, Mojo, and then Ampersand (on FIX switch thus controlling gains on Mojo, and Ampersand set at mid gain) vs C9 (using preamp in, SS mode, A-class, Lo gain). Listening was done with Austria Audio Hi-X55 and OLLO Audio S4X.  My finding is that the 2 amps performance are not that diff. Both give out solid contrasting sound with density, good dynamic, tonality, texture, details and clarity, both's imaging are precise. Despite the price diff, but if one were to strip out the C9's tube section, the AB-class circuitry, I'd argue their price would then be very close!


----------



## caustic386

SCBob said:


> Has anyone had the opportunity to listen to the iFi Diablo compared to the Ampersand with or without the M8V2? Thank you.



I have - I would, and did, choose Ampersand.  In spite of this specs, the Diablo can only output 1.4W at low impedance.  And, strangely, it has to be on the SE connection.  The balanced connection will trigger protection circuit at high output.  

The Ampersand will do this, too, but around 2.2W @ 22ohm on 4.4mm or XLR IIRC.  To be fair, all else being equal (i.e. using same headphones with each) this is only a difference of around 1.6dB. 

I also hated having only digital in on the Diablo, but maybe that doesn't matter to others.  Ampersand analog in means I can bring my own DAC - usually I just use a Qudelix or Meizu Hifi; I don't have much faith in the idea that properly built DACs sound different.

Battery life seems better in Ampersand, but that's going by memory alone.  Finally, they're both guilty of having input on one side and output on the other and over time I'd expect that to cause excessive wear on the jacks *if* you carry in your pocket. The Ampersand does win out again, though, because of the mic stand mount which i used for an eye bolt and carabineer to hook to my belt loop.

And of course the Ampersand has cool dancing lights. All that said, I'm actually selling mine ($500 I guess?) because I don't need that much power.  I switched to much cheaper NX7.  If I were a Susvara owner, I'd probably stick with Ampersand.  But Stealth doesn't need all that, even with EQ'd bass boost.


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## jjss

caustic386 said:


> I have - I would, and did, choose Ampersand.  In spite of this specs, the Diablo can only output 1.4W at low impedance.  And, strangely, it has to be on the SE connection.  The balanced connection will trigger protection circuit at high output.
> 
> The Ampersand will do this, too, but around 2.2W @ 22ohm on 4.4mm or XLR IIRC.  To be fair, all else being equal (i.e. using same headphones with each) this is only a difference of around 1.6dB.
> 
> ...


Currently I happen to own Ampersand, Diablo and NX7. If I were to keep one it would be the Ampersand. Next to it would be Diablo. Although I don’t have extra power hungry headphones but when the Ampersand (in its FIX switch mode) is paired with Mojo the combo is a gem! Listening to this combo with high sensitivity headphones reproduce sound that comes close to what the Song signature series produces. I can’t speak for others but to me my ranking would be Sony signature series, Ampersand, then A&KSE200, out of my current portable collection.


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## ops V

mgoodman said:


> Hello all, thank you SDBiotek for making this thread!
> 
> Some power specs for your perusal:
> 
> ...


Please specify the power for each output.


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## Feischmaker

Is the Ampersand works well with IEM (silent no hiss?)
I plan to pair it with the IEM (on my signature) and sometimes the headphone as well


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## newworld666 (Sep 23, 2022)

Feischmaker said:


> Is the Ampersand works well with IEM (silent no hiss?)
> I plan to pair it with the IEM (on my signature) and sometimes the headphone as well


I use the Ampersand with HEDDphone One and DCA Stealth in high gain mode and 75% of volume with a realistic sound pressure (not really good for the ears) ...
I just plugged the Beyerdynamic Xelento at this impressive volume level => no Hiss at all (it's impossible to use the Xelento at such level). When I plug the Xelento to my little BT receiver iFi Go Blu, I have a permanent amp background hiss, even at a low volume level, this mean those are rather sensitive IEM.
So, as I doubt any IEM on the market would need to set the Ampersand to the high gain mode... I think we can consider the Ampersand is hiss free for almost all IEM on the market...


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## Feischmaker

newworld666 said:


> I use the Ampersand with HEDDphone One and DCA Stealth in high gain mode and 75% of volume with a realistic sound pressure (not really good for the ears) ...
> I just plugged the Beyerdynamic Xelento at this impressive volume level => no Hiss at all (it's impossible to use the Xelento at such level). When I plug the Xelento with the iFi Go Blu, I have a permanent amp hiss even at a low volume level.
> So, as I doubt any IEM would need to set Ampersand at high gain mode... I think we can consider the Ampersand is hiss free for almost all IEM on the market...


Sounds amazing, seems to be a good product to upgrade from my current portable amp (Vorz Pure II). I need that 4.4. output

The price is also relatively affordable too


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## SDBiotek

Feischmaker said:


> Is the Ampersand works well with IEM (silent no hiss?)
> I plan to pair it with the IEM (on my signature) and sometimes the headphone as well


I have also used a few different iems with my Ampersand without any hiss/background noise issues, through both single-ended and 4.4mm balanced outputs. Just keep in mind that depending on your source, you will probably want to start with low gain on the Ampersand. It will provide more than enough power for an iem, give you the benefit of the lowest noise floor, and most usable range on the volume knob.


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## syazwaned

Has anyone got the chance to try dacmini?


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## HeadphoneAddict

Feischmaker said:


> Is the Ampersand works well with IEM (silent no hiss?)
> I plan to pair it with the IEM (on my signature) and sometimes the headphone as well


Mine is pretty silent with my very sensitive custom IEM and Westone universal IEM, and my NXears as well. It pairs well with just about every headphone and IEM I have tried with it as well.


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