# Project Ember Tube Rolling



## gamefreak054

*Project Ember Tube Rolling*​  ​ *UPDATES: *
*2/5/2014- Blackburn Mullard 12AT7, France Philips Miniwatt 12AT7, and Holland Bugleboy 6DJ8*
*2/2/2014- Other Members Impressions Section Added*
  
 ​ *Intro:*
 I just received my tube amp and did several hours of tube rolling. I could not decide if I wanted to do this or not, but after seeing that nobody had written about some of the tubes I was using on this amp I thought it may be helpful. I will be somewhat short and concise with each tube as I am not the greatest at describing the sound I am hearing, but my brother and my dad did confirm the same things I thought about the tubes (both being audiophiles as well, and these are my dads tubes). If you feel that one of my tubes descriptions is off. Feel free to question me, and I can go back and try it again. However some of these tubes my dad is only letting me listen to once due to the expense and/or rarity. If you need some clarification on tube models, let me know and I will get it clarified.
  
*Tubes Accepted by Project Ember:*


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



6V TUBES:
 6922
 7308
 8223
 6AQ8
 6DJ8
 6N1P
 6H23
 6H23N
 6L12
 6N11
 6N23
 B719
 Cca
 CV2492
 CV2493
 CV5358
 E88CC
 E89CC, E188CC
 E189CC
 E288CC
 ECC85
 ECC88
 ECC89
 ECC188
 ECC189
 ECC288
 ECC289
 JAN 7308
 12V TUBES:
 5751
 5814
 5814A
 5963
 6189
 6201
 6681
 7025
 7058
 7729
 6L13
 12AD7
 12AT7
 12AV7
 12AU7
 12AX7
 12DF7
 12DM7
 12DT7 A2900
 B152
 B309
 B329
 B339
 B749
 CV0455
 CV0491
 CV0492
 CV4024
 12V TUBES CONTINUED:
 E181CC
 E182CC
 E183CC E283CC
 E811CC
 E812CC
 E813CC
 E2157
 E2163
 E2164
 ECC81
 ECC82
 ECC83
 ECC181
 ECC182
 ECC182
 ECC801
 ECC803
 ECC803S
 E81CC
 E82CC E83CC


 
  

  
*Set Up*:
 Anyways I tested 16 different tubes being a variety of 12AT7, 12AU7, 12DF7 (I will talk about this one later), 6N1P, and a 6DJ8. I tested each tube for about 30 mins, along with my brother and my dad listening to what I was listening to and pretty much confirming what I was listening to. Some people may say 30 min may not be enough to warm up the tube, but I did not hear any recognizable difference after 5-10 min of listening. Also some tubes were listened to much more than 30 min.
  
 My set up was my DX100 (set at around 220 volume), using the line out (3.5mm to RCA), and using either the Alpha Dogs or my modded woody SR60is. The amplifier was set up at high gain low resistance for the Alpha Dogs and high gain, high resistance for the Grados. 
  
 The common songs (check spoiler for videos) used  across all tubes were: Wintersun Time I: Sons of Winter and Stars for the amazing amount of instruments used in the recording, the variety of high, mids, and bass, great for testing along with it being an great recording. Metallica Black Album: The Unforgiven for its clean sound, and overall just a great rock song.  Daft Punk RAM: Get Lucky for being an ok recording, along with being a decent song for pop and techno.
  
 All songs were FLAC 16 bit 44.1 khz files ripped from CDs.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



 

  

  




  
  

  
*Tubes*​ _*12AT7 Family:*_
  
*Sylvania Triple Mica:* This tube had good detail, but I found the Mids and Bass a bit lacking. It was definitely a tube that had a good amount of treble. It was probably my favorite tube for treble as it had the best musical sound without being dull. I found the instrument seperation to be decent with this tube. This was not a great pairing with the grados due to the extended treble. The overall sound of this was  a bit harsh, but not as harsh as some of the other treble tubes I have used.
  
*Standard Sylvania: *This was an ok all rounder tube. It was a decent flat presentation with ok detail, but not as much as some of the other flat signature tubes. It seemed to maintain the musicality of the triple mica, but a much more tame tube overall. Nothing about this tube was sparkly. It just ended up being an solid ok tube all around. Probably a good tube if you wanted a cheaper flat tube.
  
*Telefunken: *This was by favorite tube of the AT7 family I tested. It had the best details of all the tubes listed. It did not do anything bad nor did it do excel at any one thing (other than detail). It was my favorite flat tube, and probably the tube I will use the majority of the time. I did find the treble could be a bit harsh at times, but I think that is mostly due to the detail. My brother found this tube to be a bit tinny sounding, and my dad found the bass a touch lacking. However neither bugged me too much. As I found its other traits to pay off. This tube also had a really crisp sound to it. Just an great balanced tube over all.
  
*GE: *I personally did not like this tube at all. It seemed to have almost a slow decay to it. Along with a decent amount of sibilance. Had pretty bad mid range detail, with grainy sounding mids. It had ok treble, but was a bit harsh for my ears. It also had a decent amount of bass to it, but some of the other tubes had better bass.
  
*Philips Miniwatt: *Exactly what I wanted. This tube has the same construction as a Holland Philips tubes aka Amperex Bugle Boys I praised so well below. Well this tube has the exact same detailed airy smooth sound that I was searching for. The musicality on these is king to my ears. I highly recommend these.
  
*Mullard Blackburn: *I still am not the hugest fan on the Mullard tubes. They do an excellent job at mid range details, but I still find other parts of the sound signature lacking. It does have decent detail, but they do not match the musicality of the Amperex/Philips tubes. 
  
_*12AU7 Family:*_
  
*12AU7A RCA Clear Top: *Admittedly I hated this tube. I found it pretty hollow sounding, and dull. It had poor bass and was lacking mids. The best thing about this tube was the treble, but I felt like there were other tubes that did treble much better.
  
*Mullard CV4003: *I found this tube a bit lacking in bass with poor mid range detail. However it had good details and good treble with little sibilance. Overall I found this a decent tube despite it not excelling at anything, and having some faults. I found it to be an easy listening tube.
  
*Family Notes: *These tubes are probably not full optimized in this circuit as they sounded slightly dull. My dad stated that they did not carry all the characteristics from when he used it in his MC60 amps.
  
  
_*12DF7 Tube:*_
  
*Westinghouse: *This was an great tube. It had good detail, but less than some of the other very detailed tubes. It shared a lot of the qualities of the Telefunken. It was well balanced. It had a bit better bass than the Telefunken, with an airy quality. In my opinion this an easy listening version of the Telefunken. If you felt like kicking back and did not want to listen to all the details, this would be the tube to put in. 
  
*Family Notes:* This is most likely a very hard tube to find. My dad stated it was a very strange tube he found on ebay, and bought a quad to test. He did not like it in his MC60 amplifiers, but really liked it in the ember. So the circuit in the ember may have good optimization for this tube. This tube is supposed to be a cross between a 12AX7 and a 12AT7 I believe (it could be the 12AX7 and 12AU7 if I am not remembering correctly). I am not sure if any other companies developed these tubes.
  
  
*12AX7 Family:*
  
*Tesla E83CC: *This tube had reduced treble, but had a great mid range to it with very good mid bass punch. It did not excel in either bass nor treble. This would be a great tube for someone who loves mids.
  
*Mullard CV4004: *This particular tube was amazing with Daft Punk. This would be the tube to buy if you wanted an upgraded Mad Dog sound signature and owned the Alpha Dogs. It gave it a bit darker presentation, with good mids and decent bass. It was lacking a bit in treble, with a bit more sibilance than other tubes. The sound stage sounded a bit reduced. Overall this was a decent sounding tube.
  
*GE Longplate: *This tube did not seem to excel at anything. It had poor separation and lacked detail. It had ok treble, but I would not purchase it for the treble as there are better tubes out there for treble. I personally would not recommend this tube.
  
*RCA Black Plate:* I found this tube to be a bit lacking in the mid range. It was a very harsh and dry sounding tube. I thought it had decent instrument separation. I did have great treble. This overall tube gave my Alpha Dogs the presentation of the AKG K701 (in which I am not the biggest fan of). Even though it was not my favorite it would probably be a great match for some one who loves treble.
  
*Standard 1970s RCA: *This tube had good midrange, but had poor separation and soundstage. It had decent detail and treble. However it had a decent amount of sibilance. This is an ok tube, but there were others that I liked better.
  
*Mazda III-8: *This tube had the best bass of all the tubes. So if you wanted a bassy tube this would be the tube for you. It had decent mids. The biggest downfall of this tube was the treble as it was harsh and sibilant.
  
*Holland Amperex Bugle Boy: *This was my favorite tube of all the tubes I tested. Sadly I can not keep or use this tube ): anyways this was the only tube that matched the Telefunken in detail. This tube had decent separation with good treble and mids. The bass was a bit lacking. This tube had the airiest sound of all the tubes by far. It was a very smooth sounding tube over all. I highly recommend this tube if you can afford one.
  
  
_*6DJ8 Family:*_
  
*GE:* This tube was pretty harsh with a good amount of sibilance and lacking treble. However it had good detail, and good mids including the midbass. It has a slightly poor separation overall. It had decent bass quantity as well. Overall a solid tube that really had some positive traits to it.
  
*Holland Amperex Bugle Boy: *This tube share a decent amount of similarities of the Philips 12AT7 and Bugle Boy 12AX7 however I did not find it as airy as either of the tubes, nor as smooth. I also did find that the bass was not as good and was not as punchy. However I did find a sweet spot on the volume pot where the tube did sound a bit better. I tested this on both the Grados and the ADs, and still preferred the 12AT7 and 12AX7 tubes. To be fair though, it is hard to match volume of two different gain tubes.
  
  
*6N1P Family:*
  
*Gold Grid: *This is the stock tube that the amp was shipped with. I got to admit it was a bit of a disappointment. I personally did not like the sound signature of this at all. This had the warmest sound of all the tubes, with poor instrument separation. The mid range was ok, but I found this tube to have poor detail. I personally recommend buying a different tube to use with your Project Ember.
  
  
_*My Tube Rankings (from best to worst):*_​ *Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX7*​ *Telefunken 12AT7*​ *Westinghouse 12DF7*​ *Sylvania Triple Mica 12AD7*​ *GE 6DJ8*​ *Mullard CV4003 12AU7*​ *Standard Sylvania 12AT7*​ *Tesla E83CC 12AX7 tied with Mullard CV4004 12AX7*​ *Standard RCA 12AX7*​ *Mazda III-8*​ *RCA Black Plate 12AX7*​ *GE Long Plate 12AX7*​ *GE 12AT7*​ *Gold Grid 6N1P*​ *RCA CLEAR TOP 12AU7*​  ​  
*Other Head-Fi Member's Tube Impressions*​ *(If you do not want your impression added just say so in your post)*​ @Johan-71: 
*6DJ8 Amperex Bugle Boy*- Smooth with huge soundstage
  
*6DJ8 Amperex Orange Globe*- Slightly less soundstage than the Bugle Boy, but was slightly clearer with a touch more details.
  
@rmouser :
*12AX7 Sylvania Triple Mica 5751*- An industrialized 12AX7 (gain 100) with a gain of 70. Due to higher gain, this one emits a 60 HZ constant level hum. A GE 5751 was not as prone to do that. To remedy that, I made a tube shield out of aluminum foil and slipped it over the tube--noise gone. This one produces a very robust, dynamic sound, much like solid state with the tube benefits.
  
*12AX7 Amperex 6201*- is very warm and liquid with a tight although not powerful bass. Mids are very warn and highs mellow. It is a very "tubey" sound. The imaging seems like being in a sound proofed chamber, being surrounded by the instruments.
  
@connieflyer:
*Tungsram E80CC-*Good range,stage is a bit narrow
  
*Westinghouse 12au7/ECC82 black carbonized plates tube raised []-getter-* best so far, good sound, stage


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## Asr

> Originally Posted by *gamefreak054* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> My set up was my DX100 (set at around 220 volume), using the line out (3.5mm to RCA), and using either the Alpha Dogs or my modded woody SR60is. The amplifier was set up at high gain low resistance for the Alpha Dogs and high gain, high resistance for the Grados.


 
  
 Not sure why you were using those gain & resistance settings. You should use low gain whenever possible, unless it doesn't provide enough headroom on the volume pot, and low resistance in general for low-impedance headphones. Settings for the Alpha Dog should have been low gain & med R (for maximum output power), and for the SR60i low gain & low R. Not using those settings probably skewed your results, as low R increases general sonic transparency of the tube. Increasing the output resistance causes increasing loss in transparency.


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## gamefreak054

asr said:


> Not sure why you were using those gain & resistance settings. You should use low gain whenever possible, unless it doesn't provide enough headroom on the volume pot, and low resistance in general for low-impedance headphones. Settings for the Alpha Dog should have been low gain & med R (for maximum output power), and for the SR60i low gain & low R. Not using those settings probably skewed your results, as low R increases general sonic transparency of the tube. Increasing the output resistance causes increasing loss in transparency.


 
 I think you have some logic mixed up. The grados would need low gain high resistance for the lowest power output and most tubey sound. The reason I did not change it is because changing the gain is a little more inconvenient than changing the resistance. Low gain and low resistance is a heck of a lot power for the grados.
  
 For the Alpha Dogs, low gain works but I like the sound of the extra power. Lowest resistance gives the most power. Low gain and medium resistance would be just below optimal recommended power output for the ADs (optimal power is supposed to be 1.5wpc) . It probably is not that drastic, but after playing around with settings having the highest power possible was my favorite. To confirm what I am talking about check the chart Jeremy made. The resistance does make a difference in how much tube sound you are hearing, but that does not go without saying that the tubes still make drastic changes even on the lowest resistance settings.


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## connieflyer

You should post this over on the Project Ember page on DIY Audio Heaven they are active with this amp.  http://diyah.boards.net/.................
http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember also they have a page on tubes here...http://diyah.boards.net/thread/366/


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## gamefreak054

connieflyer said:


> You should post this over on the Project Ember page on DIY Audio Heaven they are active with this amp.  http://diyah.boards.net/.................
> http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember also they have a page on tubes here...http://diyah.boards.net/thread/366/


 
 Thanks for the suggestion. I knew about that site (and is where I read a lot of information on this amp), however I am not sure if I would be very active over there. I would hate to make an account just to make a couple of posts.


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## Asr

gamefreak054 said:


> I think you have some logic mixed up. The grados would need low gain high resistance for the lowest power output and most tubey sound. The reason I did not change it is because changing the gain is a little more inconvenient than changing the resistance. Low gain and low resistance is a heck of a lot power for the grados.


 
  
 I'm confused as to why you would intentionally want to effectively decrease the power output into the Grado and get a less linear sound as far as the tube is concerned. Usually the goal is to maximize the output power into a set of headphones, not to intentionally minimize it. It's not like you'd be able to "overdrive" the Grado from too much power either, it'd use only as much as needed.
  
 And increasing the gain just increases a multiplier, it doesn't actually cause more power output by itself.


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## gamefreak054

asr said:


> I'm confused as to why you would intentionally want to effectively decrease the power output into the Grado and get a less linear sound as far as the tube is concerned. Usually the goal is to maximize the output power into a set of headphones, not to intentionally minimize it. It's not like you'd be able to "overdrive" the Grado from too much power either, it'd use only as much as needed.
> 
> And increasing the gain just increases a multiplier, it doesn't actually cause more power output by itself.


 
 You may be right about the gain I have to look into that.
  
 However the grados are decently efficient. Putting over a watt into the headphones is not going to give you volume control when you need less than half that. You can drive them to dangerous levels with a lot of power because they simply can not use that much. On another thread someone claimed that they emailed grado and they recommended not to use anything over 500mw.


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## Asr

gamefreak054 said:


> However the grados are decently efficient. Putting over a watt into the headphones is not going to give you volume control when you need less than half that. You can drive them to dangerous levels with a lot of power because they simply can not use that much. On another thread someone claimed that they emailed grado and they recommended not to use anything over 500mw.


 
  
 Volume isn't the same thing as power, and all amps are made to output only as much power as the headphones need. Sure, you could theoretically blow out most headphones if you took them off your head and cranked up the volume to max with loud music, but as long as you keep them on your head, your ears' volume level tolerance will prevent that from happening, as you'd blow your hearing well before you blow out the headphones.
  
 The power output specs for amps are a maximum _capability _figure and don't mean that the amp is ever "forcefeeding" something on the order of 1.4W (or whatever else the spec may be) into 32 Ohm headphones all the time. And as it applies to low-impedance headphones specifically, "power" is usually meant as "current" (as it becomes the overriding factor versus voltage) and high-current reserve capability is necessary to optimally drive low-impedance headphones. Limiting that reserve capability can cause low-impedance headphones to be under-driven—if they suddenly need current and the amp can't supply it, it results in clipping (which can actually cause damage to transducers, especially in the case of loudspeakers).


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## gamefreak054

asr said:


> Volume isn't the same thing as power, and all amps are made to output only as much power as the headphones need. Sure, you could theoretically blow out most headphones if you took them off your head and cranked up the volume to max with loud music, but as long as you keep them on your head, your ears' volume level tolerance will prevent that from happening, as you'd blow your hearing well before you blow out the headphones.
> 
> The power output specs for amps are a maximum _capability _figure and don't mean that the amp is ever "forcefeeding" something on the order of 1.4W (or whatever else the spec may be) into 32 Ohm headphones all the time. And as it applies to low-impedance headphones specifically, "power" is usually meant as "current" (as it becomes the overriding factor versus voltage) and high-current reserve capability is necessary to optimally drive low-impedance headphones. Limiting that reserve capability can cause low-impedance headphones to be under-driven—if they suddenly need current and the amp can't supply it, it results in clipping (which can actually cause damage to transducers, especially in the case of loudspeakers).


 
 Alright, I more so get what you are saying now than what you were saying before. However the question I have then if this is true how do you know that you are limiting the reserve capability of the grados at the high resistance setting? I get that lowering the resistance setting would minimize the potential of inducing the clipping, but I guess the million dollar question for me is when would the clipping even start in the first place? When does current reserve become overkill? Plus it still does not seem that you will get that great of volume control at the lower resistance settings. The grados get loud pretty fast even at the high resistance. Even by looking at the charts you can see that the power is 4x the output or higher.


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## Asr

gamefreak054 said:


> Alright, I more so get what you are saying now than what you were saying before. However the question I have then if this is true how do you know that you are limiting the reserve capability of the grados at the high resistance setting? I get that lowering the resistance setting would minimize the potential of inducing the clipping, but I guess the million dollar question for me is when would the clipping even start in the first place? When does current reserve become overkill? Plus it still does not seem that you will get that great of volume control at the lower resistance settings. The grados get loud pretty fast even at the high resistance. Even by looking at the charts you can see that the power is 4x the output or higher.


 
  
 Looking at the 120 Ohm curve, you can see that it outputs up to ~300mW @ 32 Ohms. The 500mW you mentioned earlier is probably a "maximum input power" rating, which means that the SR60 will take up to that amount of power before it breaks (all that means is that there's a point where you'll break the headphones if you turn up volume high enough on loud music, and the amp can still supply enough current at that point—you should never reach that point as long as you're listening at ear-safe volumes though). In short, the Project Ember set at 120 Ohms will be unable to supply maximum input power (i.e., enough current) into the SR60 whenever the headphones might need it, and the clipping would likely manifest itself most obviously on loud bass notes. Setting the amp to 35 Ohms obviously solves the issue, but 0.1 Ohms would increase the sonic linearity (i.e., transparency) to maximum and really let you hear the sonic effect of the tube. Generally, it's far better to have overkill current reserve than not enough. No one can complain about overkill. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 If you need even lower gain than what the amp can offer with low gain & low R, rolling in low-gain tubes can help, like 12AU7, 5814, or 5963 types. Most of the tubes you tested (the 12AX7s, 12DF7s, & 12AT7s) are higher-gain tubes and are much better used with high-impedance or inefficient headphones like the upper-end Sennheiser & Beyerdynamic models or other models like the AKG K7xx/K340/K1000 and the Audeze & HiFiMan planar magnetics. For better results with low-impedance headphones, you want to be using either 6V tubes or the aforementioned 12AU7/5814/5963.


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## LoveKnight

Wow. There are so many rules, ways to drive headphones. I usually want to make it simple, try every configurations and then choose the best that suits my ears. End my story 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. By the way, this could be a great thread. I am going to save money to purchase an Ember or Ember II in the future. Cheer guys.


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## gamefreak054

asr said:


> Looking at the 120 Ohm curve, you can see that it outputs up to ~300mW @ 32 Ohms. The 500mW you mentioned earlier is probably a "maximum input power" rating, which means that the SR60 will take up to that amount of power before it breaks (all that means is that there's a point where you'll break the headphones if you turn up volume high enough on loud music, and the amp can still supply enough current at that point—you should never reach that point as long as you're listening at ear-safe volumes though). In short, the Project Ember set at 120 Ohms will be unable to supply maximum input power (i.e., enough current) into the SR60 whenever the headphones might need it, and the clipping would likely manifest itself most obviously on loud bass notes. Setting the amp to 35 Ohms obviously solves the issue, but 0.1 Ohms would increase the sonic linearity (i.e., transparency) to maximum and really let you hear the sonic effect of the tube. Generally, it's far better to have overkill current reserve than not enough. No one can complain about overkill.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Alright thanks for the info. I did know about the tube gains though. Bringing that up the 12au7 tubes I rated might not be the most accurate reviews, as I used my alpha dogs to judge those. Which are inefficient planars. It still did seem like the ADs had enough power though while cranking up the volume, and their sonic qualities did not change at said volume.
  
 However I thought low resistance had the worst tube sound, or to put in other words the tube was the most transparent and high resistance had the least tube transparency? I remember reading this is several different reviews.
  
@LoveKnight I am glad it helped you.


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## Johan-71

Nice work/writeup.
My no.1 tube this Week is a 6dj8 buggle boy, with large halo getter. I'm waiting for my early -50 with D getter from a local shop to show up.
I can also recommend 6dj8 amperex orange globe, it has almost the same huge soundstage as the bugle boy. But to my ears it's a little bit clearer, the bugle boy is a tiny bit smoother.


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## gamefreak054

johan-71 said:


> Nice work/writeup.
> My no.1 tube this Week is a 6dj8 buggle boy, with large halo getter. I'm waiting for my early -50 with D getter from a local shop to show up.
> I can also recommend 6dj8 amperex orange globe, it has almost the same huge soundstage as the bugle boy. But to my ears it's a little bit clearer, the bugle boy is a tiny bit smoother.


 
 Cool, I will have to look into those. I do want to find my own amperex tube. The detail and airy smoothness of the bugle boy 12AX7 was amazing.


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## Johan-71

Then you will probably love the orange globe, still smooth but a little more details. I've seen it on fleabay at low prices, don't now about quality...


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## gamefreak054

johan-71 said:


> Then you will probably love the orange globe, still smooth but a little more details. I've seen it on fleabay at low prices, don't now about quality...


 
 Do you have any experience with the Bugle Boy 12AT7s made in france? I was looking at those thinking they would be closest to the 12AX7s (atleast gain wise).


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## Johan-71

No, sorry.
Just the ones from Heerlen factory Holland. 
I have a lot of 12AT/AU/AX7 from other brands and countries, but for the moment I prefer the 6692/6dj8 family. It's probably because I use my HE-400 now, I just ordered the 500 so i might need some more gain when they arrive.


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## Asr

gamefreak054 said:


> However I thought low resistance had the worst tube sound, or to put in other words the tube was the most transparent and high resistance had the least tube transparency? I remember reading this is several different reviews.


 
  
 Low resistance generally has a "linear" sound, or what some people would call "solid-statey." However, in the case of the Project Ember, which is a hybrid amp, it means that low resistance will mirror the sound of the tube the closest, compared to the higher output resistance settings. You should be able to hear the effect as you roll tubes.


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## rikaldrey

Thanks for posting a thread dedicated for the Project Ember. I have the Ember for almost 2 weeks now, and have been reading the other thread. I can't seem to find specific information regarding this amp, especially that this is my first headphone amp.
  
 Anyway, I've got questions about this amp. First, initially my setting was on Low Gain and 1 Ohm resistance. I liked it, but can't handle the noise it emits. Maybe it's just my mains, my usb port or my cheapo 3.5mm to RCA cable, but it is so noisy that It gets annoying when I'm listening to tracks with silent parts. So I switched to High Gain, 120 Ohm. The noise dramatically decreased. However, it is still there. Sometimes, it disappears and comes back at a random rate. I have 3 ECC85 tubes to play with, Tungsram, Tung-sol, and Brimar. They produce the same noise I think, I've tested the Tung-sol and Brimar for a couple of hours each and with the Tungsram being the longest. I am still a novice when it comes to amps and tubes.
  
 Lastly, what criteria/s do you have to consider when buying tubes? I know from what I read that each brand have their distinct sound signatures. Considering you don't have any extra tubes lying around the house or other tube devices, how does one start a "collection"? Family type, 6V/12V, etc. My setup: Laptop -> Odac -> Project Ember -> Alessandro MS Pro/Grado RS1i/SR125i/Fostex T50rp/AKG Q701.
  
 If you can point me to a more specific tube guide that would be helpful too. I have checked the little dot threads but it seems they use different tubes. Thanks again.


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## connieflyer

You may consider this page, it is a little old, but still rings true.  http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#6DJ8
  
 I have also used this page, and I have bought three different tubes with him and have had good results...   http://www.tubemaze.info/......http://www.highendtubes.com/
  
 If you want more detail about tubes in general I go here as they have alot of Ember members that try different tubes......http://diyah.boards.net/thread/366/


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## gamefreak054

rikaldrey said:


> Thanks for posting a thread dedicated for the Project Ember. I have the Ember for almost 2 weeks now, and have been reading the other thread. I can't seem to find specific information regarding this amp, especially that this is my first headphone amp.
> 
> Anyway, I've got questions about this amp. First, initially my setting was on Low Gain and 1 Ohm resistance. I liked it, but can't handle the noise it emits. Maybe it's just my mains, my usb port or my cheapo 3.5mm to RCA cable, but it is so noisy that It gets annoying when I'm listening to tracks with silent parts. So I switched to High Gain, 120 Ohm. The noise dramatically decreased. However, it is still there. Sometimes, it disappears and comes back at a random rate. I have 3 ECC85 tubes to play with, Tungsram, Tung-sol, and Brimar. They produce the same noise I think, I've tested the Tung-sol and Brimar for a couple of hours each and with the Tungsram being the longest. I am still a novice when it comes to amps and tubes.
> 
> ...


 
 Look above me for the guides. I am a bit new to tubes as well (I have been listening to them the majority of my life, but never really played around with them). Otherwise hold on this is going to be a long post as you asked a slew of things.
  
 Now onto the first question. Which headphones are you using when you hear the noise? The Grados are pretty efficient however the t50rp is not. So your more likely to hear more noise than the t50rps.  Also I think you may hear more noise if the tube is still warming up. So if your hearing noise on start up, then it may be just the tube warming up (iirc the 6 volt tubes warmed up a bit slower than my 12AT7s). If you think its the source you might want to try different sources without the ODAC. I would guess its not the cable unless its damaged (I am using some pretty cheapo 3.5mm rca cables for now). If the sound disappears on another source like an ipod, then there is something off with the USB or ODAC.
  
 Now if it is your Project ember remove all the sources from it and just play the amp and see if you can still hear the noise (play with the volume). If you still do make sure all your jumper tabs are in the correct position. Make sure both sides of the resistance are on the same setting. Make sure you have both tabs on the correct gain setting (high gain does emit a bit more noise than low gain), and make sure both the input cap tabs are on the same setting. Now if all your tabs are correct you definitely want to make sure your tube is inserted all the way and tightly in. I do not know much about the ECC85s but some tubes can be microphonic and will pick up more noises if not placed correctly or if they are going bad. Now onto the tube itself you may want to check this- http://www.guitars101.com/forums/f81/when-to-replace-tubes-60868.html there is a good post in there that tells if a tube is going bad. You may want to try the stock 6N1P again if you have it to test if you hear noises.
  
 If all else fails contact Jeremy, he knows this amp inside and out. He will most likely pinpoint the issue pretty easily.
  
 Now onto buying tubes and amassing a collection. I guess when buying tubes you are going to have to take a decent shot in the dark to see if you like them or not. Unless you have a audio boutique near by that sells tubes and lets you try them, you are going to have to go off other peoples opinions. You may want to look at the gain tubes naturally have as a low gain tube might not sound the greatest on a low efficiency headphone. However if you are using your grados you might not need a high gain tube anyways.
  
 Now when actually buying tubes you want to make sure you are buying tubes from a reputable seller. There are relabeled chinese tubes to represent telefunkens or whatever desired tube that exists.  I would never buy an untested tube (my dad just so happens to have a tube tester). Generally they will give numbers like 76/78 or 90/93. The numbers represent how good a tube is. On my dads tester 80+ is good 60-70 is questionable and anything under is bad. I personally would not buy a tube under 85. I would try to look for tubes in the 90. You also generally want the numbers to be fairly close. Some tubes will only have 1 number as they only have 1 test you can give. I tested a microphonic tube that had test in the 70/73, and you had to make sure that tube was SECURE otherwise it would make very loud noises. There are also different testers that test in different scales (make sure they list what the minimum acceptable number is and the general ranges it is acceptable, good, and NOS (new old stock) ) and there is also another measurement in GM. which I believe a good tube should measure above 13000/13000.
  
 You can try thrift stores for tubes. We found a couple of 12ax7 tubes at a goodwill type place. My dad also received a bunch of like new tubes from free Techtronix equipment from his work (its where I got the 12AT7s).


----------



## Asr

rikaldrey said:


> Thanks for posting a thread dedicated for the Project Ember. I have the Ember for almost 2 weeks now, and have been reading the other thread. I can't seem to find specific information regarding this amp, especially that this is my first headphone amp.
> Anyway, I've got questions about this amp. First, initially my setting was on Low Gain and 1 Ohm resistance. I liked it, but can't handle the noise it emits. Maybe it's just my mains, my usb port or my cheapo 3.5mm to RCA cable, but it is so noisy that It gets annoying when I'm listening to tracks with silent parts. So I switched to High Gain, 120 Ohm. The noise dramatically decreased. However, it is still there. Sometimes, it disappears and comes back at a random rate. I have 3 ECC85 tubes to play with, Tungsram, Tung-sol, and Brimar. They produce the same noise I think, I've tested the Tung-sol and Brimar for a couple of hours each and with the Tungsram being the longest. I am still a novice when it comes to amps and tubes.
> 
> Lastly, what criteria/s do you have to consider when buying tubes? I know from what I read that each brand have their distinct sound signatures. Considering you don't have any extra tubes lying around the house or other tube devices, how does one start a "collection"? Family type, 6V/12V, etc. My setup: Laptop -> Odac -> Project Ember -> Alessandro MS Pro/Grado RS1i/SR125i/Fostex T50rp/AKG Q701.
> ...


 
  
 Similar to what gamefreak054 said, you want to try and isolate the cause of the noise by disconnecting the amp from your source and checking for noise when the volume is set to zero on low gain & low resistance. It also depends on what kind of noise you're hearing—if it sounds like hiss, it's most likely the tube, and you should probably stop using it. Generally, tubes are bad when they have a "burnt" look at the top. If the noise is more like a hum or droning, then it more likely has something to do with your power supply and might be related to interference. Make sure you don't have the Project Ember set up next to, or on, another device that outputs high levels of EM radiation (generally, heavy-weight electronic equipment as it tends to contain large transformers).
  
 Jeremy @ Garage1217 is an indispensable resource and you should definitely ask him about your noise issue.
  
 As far as tubes, mostly you should get tubes that would ideally match with your headphones. I see you have some low-impedance sensitive types, for which you'd want low-gain tubes (12AU7/5814/5963). For the T50rp and Q701, you'd want higher-gain tubes. 6DJ8s are popular low-cost tubes, with the Amperex Orange Globe in particular being one of the more prevalent ones. 12AX7s would also be interesting for those headphones.


----------



## rikaldrey

> Originally Posted by *gamefreak054* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Now onto the first question. Which headphones are you using when you hear the noise? The Grados are pretty efficient however the t50rp is not. So your more likely to hear more noise than the t50rps.  Also I think you may hear more noise if the tube is still warming up. So if your hearing noise on start up, then it may be just the tube warming up (iirc the 6 volt tubes warmed up a bit slower than my 12AT7s). If you think its the source you might want to try different sources without the ODAC. I would guess its not the cable unless its damaged (I am using some pretty cheapo 3.5mm rca cables for now). If the sound disappears on another source like an ipod, then there is something off with the USB or ODAC.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for taking the time to provide some useful information. I have done all the checks you mentioned before. I have tried with 2 Odac's, and a Fiio X3 as a USB Dac, they all exhibit the same symptoms. The noise is more noticeable at around 12-1 'o clock volume. However, when unplugged or plugged to X3's lineout the noise is around 9 'o clock and upward. Directly proportional to the volume level. Also, is it normal for my 3.5mm rca to have some noise when I touch them or turn them around but not on my Grado cable? That bit actually made me think this is a cable problem. I am just using the Grado's atm, I am still awaiting for the Q701 and T50rp so I can't do a test with them. Maybe you are right that this is normal with Grado's because they are efficient and sensitive, I can live with it though as it seems to disappear when I'm playing music, I was just curious as to why or how this happens.
  
 Regarding the tube buying, so it is just a matter of preference?Was this feature just designed to be economical for people that already have other tube-powered devices? Are there no technical dis/advantages between 6V and 12v tubes? When do you need them? So, It's going to be trial and error in case I don't follow other people's choices? Oh, too many questions. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


connieflyer said:


> You may consider this page, it is a little old, but still rings true.  http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#6DJ8
> 
> I have also used this page, and I have bought three different tubes with him and have had good results...   http://www.tubemaze.info/......http://www.highendtubes.com/
> 
> If you want more detail about tubes in general I go here as they have alot of Ember members that try different tubes......http://diyah.boards.net/thread/366/


 

 Normally, I'm kind of intimated reading these types of threads. They all start with tube talks, preferences, etc. They don't talk about which type to buy, 6V or 12V, why to buy them, or when do you need these specific type,etc. I will have to read more, I just posted here since the thread is still fresh and I needed specific answers. Thanks for the links.


----------



## gamefreak054

rikaldrey said:


> Thanks for taking the time to provide some useful information. I have done all the checks you mentioned before. I have tried with 2 Odac's, and a Fiio X3 as a USB Dac, they all exhibit the same symptoms. The noise is more noticeable at around 12-1 'o clock volume. However, when unplugged or plugged to X3's lineout the noise is around 9 'o clock and upward. Directly proportional to the volume level. Also, is it normal for my 3.5mm rca to have some noise when I touch them or turn them around but not on my Grado cable? That bit actually made me think this is a cable problem. I am just using the Grado's atm, I am still awaiting for the Q701 and T50rp so I can't do a test with them. Maybe you are right that this is normal with Grado's because they are efficient and sensitive, I can live with it though as it seems to disappear when I'm playing music, I was just curious as to why or how this happens.
> 
> Regarding the tube buying, so it is just a matter of preference?Was this feature just designed to be economical for people that already have other tube-powered devices? Are there no technical dis/advantages between 6V and 12v tubes? When do you need them? So, It's going to be trial and error in case I don't follow other people's choices? Oh, too many questions.
> 
> ...


 
 Check out the post above yours as there is some really good additional info.
  
 On the RCA. It should make noise when twisting it. However mine do not make noise when tapping it (not that it cant happen). Still if you remove the cable and you hear the noise it shouldn't be the cable. How audible is this noise? I will go grab my grados in a sec to see how silent the amp is with those. On my alpha dogs the amp is dead silent. Right now if I had to guess it sounds like your tube is getting bad. Are all the tubes you have exhibiting the exact same sound?
  
 Tube buying is mostly a preference. However the tube families do have different gains. You could potentially buy a 12AU7 to try a low gain tube and a 12AX7 for a high gain tube. Try and match the sound signatures of both of the tubes though. Once you kind of decided which family you like, it would be a safe bet to stick with those. Personally I did not try many 12AU7s, because they did not sound as good as the 12AX7s through my ADs (granted even with the grados they were still a touch dull, but its hard to try a low gain tube right after trying multiple high gain tubes).. So you can get different disadvantages/advantages there. Starting off with a guide is generally a good start if you are looking for a particular sound. If you do not know what sound you are shooting for I personally would buy a cheap tube good at treble, a tube good at mids, and a overall decent flat tube.
  
 It is kind of going to be trial and error no matter what. Hence why people get so addicted to tube rolling, and it does not help that the project ember takes an obnoxious amount of tubes compared to a lot of hybrid amps in its price range.
  
 EDIT: As an update. I do not have the Grados here as my brother took them with him to his friends (I did sell them to him, but I still call them mine for simplicity). I did hook up my Westone 2 IEMs to the amp and it was still very quiet almost dead quiet on high resistance (I did not touch the other resistances, as high resistance went up in volume incredibly fast) this is with my DX100 and RCA cables hooked up. I turned them up to around 8 o'clock.
  
 Another thing I forgot to bring up. Make sure you are not turning your sources volume up all the way. Sometimes if you have your sources volumes turned up they will induce extra sound as well. At least with the ibasso DAPs the line outs are not perfect, and are still volume controllable (might be the same for your sources). I know mine can induce extra sound if they are cranked up to 100% so I keep mine at around 90%.


----------



## rmouser

Hello folks,
  
 This is my first entry into this thread. My name is Ron. I have Ember, Sunrise2, and Starlight amps. Do you see a pattern here? I built Starlight kit K00001.
  
 All three amps have special personalities but this is an Ember (my favorite) thread.
  
 I submit two tubes that I am burning in "side by side" if you will. They are the Amperex 6201/E81CC Premium and the Sylvania 5751 triple mica. I use the Starlight for burning in as it (and the Sunrise2) have higher heater current capabilities, which really doesn't matter.
  
 The 5751 is an industrialized 12AX7 (gain 100) with a gain of 70. Due to higher gain, this one emits a 60 HZ constant level hum. A GE 5751 was not as prone to do that. To remedy that, I made a tube shield out of aluminum foil and slipped it over the tube--noise gone.
  
 The 6201 is very warm and liquid with a tight although not powerful bass. Mids are very warn and highs mellow. It is a very "tubey" sound. The imaging seems like being in a sound proofed chamber, being surrounded by the instruments.
  
 Enter the 5751. Prices are going up on these. I've seen them from $39 to over a $100. This one produces a very robust, dynamic sound, much like solid state with the tube benefits.
  
  I just bought the 2011 version of the remastered Pink Floyd Dark Side Of The Moon and Wish You Were Here--WOW!
  
 I heard things I never heard before--very subtle nuances and the bass (kick) drum and cymbal crashes are very vivid.
  
 Anyone done a listen to a 6DJ8?
  
 Cheers!


----------



## gamefreak054

rmouser said:


> Hello folks,
> 
> This is my first entry into this thread. My name is Ron. I have Ember, Sunrise2, and Starlight amps. Do you see a pattern here? I built Starlight kit K00001.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for your impressions. I will most likely add this to a section on the first page, but I have not fully decided how to do that yet.
  
 I am curious how close the Sylvania Triple Mica 12AX7 sounds to my Sylvania Triple Mica 12AT7. I was very happy with sound the 12AT7 produced.
  
 Anyways on the 6DJ8 are you talking about amperex or sylvania 6DJ8s or just 6DJ8s in general? I tried a GE in my write up and that was pretty decent and Johan-71 gave some impressions on the Bugle Boy and Orange Globe.
  
 I personally find that the 6 Volt tubes can be a little under powered for my headphones, but that did not stop me from ordering one of my own Holland Bugle Boys 6DJ8s. I was going to try the Orange Globe but they seemed a bit pricier. I will give an impression on that when I receive that. I also won an auction on a pair of France Philips Miniwatt 12AT7 which are supposed to be the same construction as the Holland ones. On top of that I ordered a very strange tube which I figured to be one of 3 things 1) Fake 2) Rare or 3)Just not documented well. It is an Holland CBS 12AT7 which looks like a very similar construction to the Holland Philips 12AT7. Check pic below maybe some of you guys can help me, because I took a complete shot in the dark on this one. 
  

  
 Not sure if it will be a worthwhile purchase but I purchased it off ebay, and if tests like crap or turns out to be some fake tube. I think I have a good argument with ebay to get my money back, and the seller seems to be flexible.
  
 Anyways I went on a little too much of a buying spree, especially for tubes that could all sound very similar. Yeah woops.. like that does not happen on Head Fi often 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.So I most likely be selling some of these off for the prices I bought them in the near future.


----------



## connieflyer

I just did the same thing, purchased 3 tubes when I already know that the 12au7 Sylvania triple  black plate is my favorite, but I had to try some new ones anyways.  One was a Sylvania 6dj8 just had to try one.


----------



## gamefreak054

connieflyer said:


> I just did the same thing, purchased 3 tubes when I already know that the 12au7 Sylvania triple  black plate is my favorite, but I had to try some new ones anyways.  One was a Sylvania 6dj8 just had to try one.


 
 Lol, I felt the same way about just having to try them. Except I am more or less looking to reproduce the sound of my dads's bugle boy that I can not keep. Hopefully these tubes that I ordered sound pretty close. I know the philips miniwatt ones can be badged as bugle boys, but is just a matter if French Bugle Boys sound the same as the Holland ones and the change in families does not make too much of a difference. 12AX7 tubes are just too expensive as too many people are using them. Feel free to add your impressions when you get them.
  
 As an thread update. I added a members impression section in which will state which each member feels about the tubes they tested. I will try to quote people as best I can, and will try to keep up with peoples impressions. I also added an update section for any thread changes, or tube additions that I make (I will not add them to my rankings as they will be tested too far apart). Just trying to keep this thread as professional looking as possible so people either come back or gain more interest of the amazing project ember.


----------



## Oskari

gamefreak054 said:


> On top of that I ordered a very strange tube which I figured to be one of 3 things 1) Fake 2) Rare or 3)Just not documented well. It is an Holland CBS 12AT7 which looks like a very similar construction to the Holland Philips 12AT7. Check pic below maybe some of you guys can help me, because I took a complete shot in the dark on this one.


 
  
 Based on the code given in the auction description, that's a 1957 Blackburn ECC81. It looks like a Mullard tube, too.


----------



## gamefreak054

oskari said:


> Based on the code given in the auction description, that's a 1957 Blackburn ECC81. It looks like a Mullard tube, too.


 
 Cool thanks for the info. My dad may have a mullard black burn I could compare it to


----------



## rmouser

I am talking about 6DJ8s in general. The one I have is a GE smoked glass--love it! It seems the "holy grail" is an Amperex by reviews I have read.
  
 My buying spree was with 5751s--four total.
  
 3 Sylvanias--two triple MICA black plate (one used (gift that got me hooked), one brand new, and a gold edition)
  
 1 Heinz-Kaufman? The HK caught my eye on the Internet--there actually WAS a company by that name and it sounds good so far.
  
 1 GE black plate
  
 gamefreak054--This thread is doing well--I hope it stays alive. I like the idea of a kind of "review board" and maybe a FOR SALE OR TRADE section or separate thread?
  
 Cheers!


----------



## stupidmop

Love this thread. I have a sunrise II, is the ember much diff sound wise. I've read everything on G1217s site but wondered if owners had a take on it. I think I'm gonna get one just for the auto bias  
 I love my 6dj8s. Fave is a tfk 6922, followed soo closely by siemens 6922. I read somewhere in an article that the 6dj8/6922 is the best tube for audio YMMV. Based on your recommendations in the sunrise thread rmouser I have bought several 5751s and I have to say you are dead on. The sylvania is hard to beat!
  
 Edit: If you do start buying 6dj8s know that there are no american made ones. Except for the amperex white label made in NY. All RCAs are rebrands. I have a siemens and mullard labeled rca. Sylvania might have made one...not sure


----------



## gamefreak054

rmouser said:


> I am talking about 6DJ8s in general. The one I have is a GE smoked glass--love it! It seems the "holy grail" is an Amperex by reviews I have read.
> 
> My buying spree was with 5751s--four total.
> 
> ...


 
 The BST thread sounds like a cool idea, but I am pretty sure on this forum and a lot of other forums that all business should be conducted in the marketplace. I wouldn't mind people mentioning their market place threads in here as long as it relates to the ember, it does not break the forum rules, and people keep it reasonable (like only mentioning a thread once, and only posting 1 thread a week).
  


stupidmop said:


> Love this thread. I have a sunrise II, is the ember much diff sound wise. I've read everything on G1217s site but wondered if owners had a take on it. I think I'm gonna get one just for the auto bias
> I love my 6dj8s. Fave is a tfk 6922, followed soo closely by siemens 6922. I read somewhere in an article that the 6dj8/6922 is the best tube for audio YMMV. Based on your recommendations in the sunrise thread rmouser I have bought several 5751s and I have to say you are dead on. The sylvania is hard to beat!
> 
> Edit: If you do start buying 6dj8s know that there are no american made ones. Except for the amperex white label made in NY. All RCAs are rebrands. I have a siemens and mullard labeled rca. Sylvania might have made one...not sure


 
 Glad you like the thread. As far as Ember vs PS2 goes, you are going to have to get other members opinions that own both. I know I needed the extra power that the ember puts out for my headphones, so I did not look at the other amps as much.


----------



## stupidmop

Thanks, I've had my sunrise for over a year. The Ember was just an idea then  or I'd def bought this beast!


----------



## rmouser

gamefreak054--roger your comment on a BST.
  
 I have an Ember and PS2  side by side. Below is a quick comparison:
  
 Ember
  
 Auto Bias: Super easy tube rolling with one weakness. Tubes are limited to 500 ma heater current. A mod is coming out that will raise that and Ember II will have that mod built in.
 Output Resistance: Three adjustments
 Output Power: Higher than PS2 and suitable to drive 32-600 ohm phones. This makes my 600 ohm DT880s blast. 48 volt output section with very little heat.
 Adjustable Gain.
  
 PS2
  
 Class A output section: A smoother sound I think. 24 volt outputs have heat sinks that DO get hot.
 Output resistance: Two adjustments.
 Manual Adjustable Bias: Super easy--can handle heater currents up to 900 ma (rating is 1000ma but I like a safety margin)
 About $100 less than Ember.
 Suitable for 32-300 ohm phones.
  
 If you are only going to have one amp: Spend more and get the Ember--it can drive practically dynamic phone.


----------



## gamefreak054

rmouser said:


> gamefreak054--roger your comment on a BST.
> 
> I have an Ember and PS2  side by side. Below is a quick comparison:
> 
> ...


 
 Do you have information on that mod? I cant seem to find anything anywhere pertaining to it.
  
  
 EDIT: NVM found it. Decently interested in that mod.


----------



## 1llest

I will be buying my first tube as I want to replace the stock tube on my ember. While I like the stock tube a lot, i feel like i can improve it more with a better tube. 

The only problem is there is so many options lol. People seems to talk about the Sylvania 5751 and 6DJ8 a lot around here.

What are your favorites? Without breaking the bank. Because I am so clueless where to start. I just want to maybe get two tubes and thats it, don't want to spend too much on tubes that it costs the same as the amp.


----------



## RainHeaven

Hai guys. I'm planning to buy this as my first dedicated headphone amp and can't wait. I'm still deciding on what tube I should use but right now I am eyeballing the *GE Smoked Glass 6DJ8 *because of a review by Asr. It seems really promising so far. Mainly trying to find a tube that is a good all-rounder and a little emphasis on bass and mids. This one seems to fit the bill quite well.
  


Spoiler: GE Smoked Glass 6DJ8 (Description from review)



This tube was an excellent all-rounder that paired up very well with every headphone, improving on the 6N1P specifically at driving the K712, making it sound a bit more lively and with more mid-range presence. The only notable detraction with this tube was its amount of hiss, which was quite noticeable on the AD2K/X and HD598, but nothing that was too distracting once music was playing. The 6DJ8 had a very noticeable mid-range & mid-bass presence that really made everything sound filled-out, weighted, heavy, & powerful, but not ponderous or inert, while maintaining a clear 3D soundstage that had as much depth as width. Granted, it didn't have a "huge" soundstage, but it was large enough that it was a clear improvement over the Gilmore Lite, which had a very 2D-flat, compressed soundstage (with nearly zero 3D depth).
 
If this tube was indicative of 6DJ8-type tubes in general, then I'd highly recommend one for every Project Ember owner or buyer. It was a fantastic tube that worked particularly well with vocals (male & female), plus the instruments that generally make up pop, rock, metal, & electronic music—i.e., bass guitars, overdriven guitars, and synthesized & acoustic bass.


----------



## gamefreak054

Which headphones are you guys using? Different tubes have different gains, and if you have an inefficient headphone some of the low gain tubes can sound dull. I prefer the high gain tubes like the 12AT7 and 12AX7 (though 2ax7 break the bank). 
  
 I personally prefer the sound of an amperex holland tube or the telefunken. The telefunkens can be expensive however the amperexs you can find for cheap as they are relabeled a lot of time as philips (amperex never really made tubes). I found both to be decently flat, the bugle boy having a slight emphasis in mids and an overall warm, airy sound. The telefunkens were flat and crisp sound, but both excelled in details over all the other tubes. I am receiving my French Philips tomorrow which are supposed to be the same construction as the holland ones, and can give impressions then.Otherwise the GE 6DJ8 I had was pretty good, but I am unsure if it was a smoked glass one. It did have a similar sound sig as described by ASR. I personally found the sylvanias pretty decent as well for the most part.
  
 If your looking for a tube that excels in mids though, the Mullards are generally the tube to seek out.


----------



## RainHeaven

gamefreak054 said:


> Which headphones are you guys using?


 
  
 I'm gonna get the Mrspeakers Alpha Dogs in a week or two and will use them with Project Ember. My current headphones atm are SoundMAGIC HP100s.


----------



## Oskari

gamefreak054 said:


> I personally prefer the sound of an amperex holland tube or the telefunken. The telefunkens can be expensive however the amperexs you can find for cheap as they are relabeled a lot of time as philips (amperex never really made tubes).


 
  
 You are quite correct in saying that [many] tubes sold by Amperex were not made by Amperex themselves. They did, however, make some tubes. In fact, Amperex made tubes long before they were bought by Philips. They just were rather more interested in transmitting tubes than receiving tubes.
  
 After the acquisition by Philips, new production facilities were setup in Hicksville, Long Island for tubes such as the 6922. This was done largely to gain patronage from the US government.
  
 Amperex manufactured only a limited number of types in Hicksville. Many tubes made by Philips in the Netherlands, and related companies in other countries, were relabelled Amperex for the US market. Amperex also purchased from other US manufacturers. Rebranding was very common in the tube business.


----------



## rmouser

Here is a link to an article called JOES TUBE LORE that covers a LOT of tubes pertinent to Ember. It's dated but the info is still relevant.
  
 http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/faq/joes-tubes.html
  
 Good reading


----------



## gamefreak054

rainheaven said:


> I'm gonna get the Mrspeakers Alpha Dogs in a week or two and will use them with Project Ember. My current headphones atm are SoundMAGIC HP100s.


 
 I do not reccomend the 6 volt tubes. It could be just the tubes I tried, but to my ears they do not seem as lively as either the 12AT7 and 12AX7 for the alphas. I would look at the 12AT7s as they tend to be a bit cheaper.
  
@Oskari- Thanks for the info.


----------



## connieflyer

I have the Senn hd650's with the Ember and trying different tubes, have found that with the gain set to low and the resistance set to 1 ohm the Sylvania JAN 6DJ8/ECC88 O-getter is one of the best sounding of the ones I have tried, which are 
 stock tube--6H1-BN-warm, not to detailed
  
 Tungsram E80CC NOS-Good range,stage is a bit narrow
  
Westinghouse 12au7/ECC82 black carbonized plates tube raised []-getter- best so far, good sound, stage
  
 Sylvania JAN 6DJ8/ECC88 O-getter USED
  
 Took a while for it to warm up, sound is similar to 12au7  have these coming in this week and will let you know what I think, the Sylvania 6dj8 was a used tube, with no box , but at $9 I had to give it a try.  The guy   I bought it from on ebay, tubemaze is very reliable and thought I would see if the 6dj8 was worth pursue ing  i am loving it.
  
 RCA 6GU7 NOS

 Westinhouse 12AV7 NOS

 Amperex "Bugle Boy" 6DJ8 ECC88


----------



## RainHeaven

gamefreak054 said:


> I do not reccomend the 6 volt tubes. It could be just the tubes I tried, but to my ears they do not seem as lively as either the 12AT7 and 12AX7 for the alphas. I would look at the 12AT7s as they tend to be a bit cheaper.
> 
> @Oskari- Thanks for the info.


 
  
 Okay, thanks for info. Will now start looking at different tubes :3


----------



## gamefreak054

rainheaven said:


> Okay, thanks for info. Will now start looking at different tubes :3


 
 I do have an Holland Bugle Boy 6DJ8 arriving tomorrow. I will see if my opinion changes then.


----------



## 1llest

Decided that im gonna try a 6DJ8. But should I go with bugle boy or orange globe? And are there websites I can purchase these tubes other than ebay?


----------



## Asr

The choice is up to you but it seems like the Amperex Orange Globe is a popular option in similar amps like the Schiit Lyr. Not sure about other sites but if you're worried about eBay, make sure to buy from only a 100%-rated seller. They're not too hard to find.


----------



## RainHeaven

I was almost dead set on getting the Schiit Lyr (With Amperex Orange Globes) for the Alpha Dogs as a headphone amp until I found out about Project Ember xD From Garage1217's website, he sells quite a bit of tubes. He has an Orange Globe for $20 but the tubes list hasn't been updated since September so I'm not sure.


----------



## 1llest

Looks like Orange Globe it is! -looking at ebay listings, what does it mean when its labeled as "Tested 70/60 - 86/87" and so on..

And it looks like all the ebay listings are only sold in pair.


----------



## RainHeaven

gamefreak054 said:


> Generally they will give numbers like 76/78 or 90/93. The numbers represent how good a tube is. On my dads tester 80+ is good 60-70 is questionable and anything under is bad. I personally would not buy a tube under 85. I would try to look for tubes in the 90. You also generally want the numbers to be fairly close. Some tubes will only have 1 number as they only have 1 test you can give. I tested a microphonic tube that had test in the 70/73, and you had to make sure that tube was SECURE otherwise it would make very loud noises.


----------



## 1llest

Thanks a lot - Looks like i missed that one.


----------



## connieflyer

stupidmop said:


> Love this thread. I have a sunrise II, is the ember much diff sound wise. I've read everything on G1217s site but wondered if owners had a take on it. I think I'm gonna get one just for the auto bias
> I love my 6dj8s. Fave is a tfk 6922, followed soo closely by siemens 6922. I read somewhere in an article that the 6dj8/6922 is the best tube for audio YMMV. Based on your recommendations in the sunrise thread rmouser I have bought several 5751s and I have to say you are dead on. The sylvania is hard to beat!
> 
> Edit: If you do start buying 6dj8s know that there are no american made ones. Except for the amperex white label made in NY. All RCAs are rebrands. I have a siemens and mullard labeled rca. Sylvania might have made one...not sure


 
 This Sylvania one....http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-JAN-6dj8-ECC88-tube-Very-Strong-/181135663925?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a2c86e335
 Good seller, have bought many tubes from him and always satisfied.  Using this tube now and think it is the best of the tubes I now use.
  
 Have these on the way in, so will have another 6dj8 to compare it with.  If I like the sylvania one better, I am going to spring for another one from Tubemaze.


----------



## gamefreak054

1llest said:


> Thanks a lot - Looks like i missed that one.


 
 I also added onto that post somewhere that different testers have different scales. You probably want to buy from some one who is giving you ranges of when the tube is bad/questionable/good. High seller ratings like stated before are a must. There is also different ratings. I also found about a little more since then, and found out there are also 2 different types of testers. There is some disagreement on what testers tell a good and bad tube. However a transconductance will tell more about the operation of tube and an emission test will just tell if a tube is good or a bad. Emissions can sometimes tell a good tube it is bad, and a bad tube it is good as it is only telling the emissions of the cathode. Which make a lot of believe that transconductance testers are the way to go.
  
 The one my dad uses is an emissions, but it appears to do a pretty good job at picking out tubes.So I really do not have any complaints about an emissions testing. You probably would also want to go with some visual clues to see if the tube is good or bad. Here is a thread on another forum that may help a bit- http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=6595.0;wap2


----------



## connieflyer

this is the problem with home test setups,  I had lots of experience in the Navy as an electronics tech.  The smaller portable sets just did not cut it.  We had the industrial types in the shops and we had to keep these calibrated to make sure of the numbers.  The following comment on your link confirms....*PRR*:
 The issue is "Emission testers". These were NEVER good tests. Especially for small-signal tubes like 12AX7, and the BIG signal tubes like EL34 in guitar-amp duty. 

 The ONLY excuse for Emission Test is that it is cheap and it will quickly find high-high-hour tubes which are actually worn. When you pull 23 tubes out of a TV set that has run 9 hours a night 7 nights a week, there is a good chance of finding a "dead" or "weak" tube, which -might- actually be a problem. 

 Hmmmmm..... ya know, those cheap testers are -biased- to read "poor". The main use was to test used tubes and SELL new tubes. Whether an actual radio-repair shop (who does not mind replacing tubes) or the Drugstore Tube Tester with a rack of new FOR SALE tubes underneath. 

 I have an emission tester. Might be a Mighty Mite.  It found a hot-short in an old tube, saved an amp's butt. I tap the emission test button and see if the meter moves -anywhere- near the "OK" zone; complete lack of reading means I mis-set the switches, the tube-type, or the tube is totally dead. But I don't give a hoot if the reading is only halfway up to "OK"; I know that most audio systems will never require "full emission". 

 And prolonged "emission testing" WILL damage the tube. 

 You could plausably decline to accept returns which have been through an Emission Tester. The tube may have been fine before they "tested" it for an hour. 

 It can be hard to know what kind of tester the customer used. You might simply refuse returns based -only- on a tube-tester reading. 

 I still say: breadboard a Champ so you can probe cathode voltages. If most 12AX7 show 1.5V-1.7V, and you got one which reads 0.9V, it is dubious. AND if it reads 1.6V but hisses like a snake-worship church, sumthin's wrong. You can put 12AT7 and 12AU7 in the same socket; the "normal" voltage will be different and gain will be down, but way-out tubes will be obvious when compared with others. All the Octal Audio Power tubes will "work" in a Champ's 6V6 socket if you wire it right. True, a 6550 may run fine at happy-6V6 11W and turn sick at 41W, but that's rare. 

 OTOH; New Sensor "should" understand that most of the market is ignorant idiots. They "should" gimmick the tubes so that they read "OK" on the $19 Sencore Cheapo tester. 

 BTW, IIRC: the pair of Sovtek 6550s I got from you had handwritten numbers which appeared to be current and transconductance. That told me that someone had lit them up with specific G1 G2 P voltages, read current, and wiggled to read transconductance. To me, this is first-order PROOF the tube was "good" when tested. I don't know what the "right" numbers should be (I don't know what the the test conditions were), but I am sure that if they tested a run and got 61 63 58 13 60 210 66... that the "13" and "210" tubes would be culled-out.


----------



## stupidmop

connieflyer said:


> This Sylvania one....http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-JAN-6dj8-ECC88-tube-Very-Strong-/181135663925?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a2c86e335
> Good seller, have bought many tubes from him and always satisfied.  Using this tube now and think it is the best of the tubes I now use.
> 
> Have these on the way in, so will have another 6dj8 to compare it with.  If I like the sylvania one better, I am going to spring for another one from Tubemaze.


 
  That is the 6dj8 I was talking about. I didn't personally like it but I'm pretty sure it and the amperex were the only ones manufactured in the USA. Nikolay at tubemaze knows his stuff. Don't worry buying from him  The sylvania I like is a 12ax7 variant, a 5751, very nice!


----------



## gamefreak054

@connieflyer-Ehh, from what I have seen at home the emissions test can detect good and bad tubes quite easily. Are they as accurate? Probably not. If you are looking online to buy a good tube you need to know it at least works properly. A good tube is still going to test good on an emissions test for the most part. There can be some change in that a poorly tested emissions tube might still have good internals and still might work just as well, but there could be a decent chance that tube is getting old as well. It can go vice versa but from what I have seen it is uncommon. That is why I generally look for a high emissions testing tubes (if they are using emissions to test the tube), because if it is pegging the emission test meter there is a good chance you are getting a decent tube. A test is better than no test. You can also do visual inspections on the tube as well just to confirm everything.
  
 EDIT: Scratch what I was saying. I was being a misinformed idiot. The tester at my house is a mutual conductance


----------



## Johan-71

If you're going to buy tubes whitout logos you can always check out the codes.
 Try this for Telefunken: http://www.audiotubes.com/teledate.htm
 If  you're into Amperex/Philips Mullard etc go to: http://www.audiotubes.com/mullcode.htm
 Happy hunting


----------



## gamefreak054

Updated my tube impression list with a Philips Miniwatt 12AT7, Mullard Blackburn 12AT7, and Bugle Boy 6DJ8
  
 My opinion about the 6DJ8s remains unchanged. The 12 volt tubes still sound more lively. I also find that they gain other advantages.
  
 Also check my edited post above about testers. I was misguided, and was wrong. Sorry for my newbie mistake.


----------



## RainHeaven

Got me interested on the Philips Miniwatt 12AT7. Might be a future purchase. Maybe.


----------



## gamefreak054

rainheaven said:


> Got me interested on the Philips Miniwatt 12AT7. Might be a future purchase. Maybe.


 
 I highly recommend it, as if I were to pick one tube it would be that one. Make sure you purchase the French ones though. I believe the GT. Britain ones are Mullards, and the JAN ones are Military tubes iirc. My dad said he disliked the JANs a while ago, and other people agreed but then randomly took off in popularity. 
  
 If you do end up buying a French Philips/Amperex and greatly hate it. I would potentially trade you a different 12AT7 tube or one of my 6DJ8s. I would not mind having another one of these tubes on hand.The only problem would be I do not want to give up my Telefunken nor my Sylvania Triple Mica, and I can not guarantee the quality of the tube (well they would work) as my dads tester is testing the 12AT7s and 6DJ8s kind of funky. The mullard blackburn would not be available due to the poor testing (sounds fine though). Both 12AT7 and 6DJ8 are testing inconsistent and lower than it should so its potentially needs a re-calibration. I believe out of all the 12AT7s I am pretty sure only the telefunken tested strong, and recently there was decent difference in the cathode readings from the first test I had a week ago went from 105/103 to 100/90. The 6DJ8s all tested in the same range which was pretty poor (generally averaging around 60/50).


----------



## gamefreak054

Got my CBS tube today and sure enough it tested bad, and on top of that we re-calibrated to make sure it was not the tester. I decided to test it in my amp anyways as I have a mullard black burn that was testing similarly, but sounded fine. Of course it let out a buzzing noise and I quickly shut off my amp and pulled it. I should have known better not to buy a non tested tube, but my curiosity got the better of me. Well I guess lesson learned (I will most likely get my money back anyways).
  
 Also I hope to test a few more of my dads tubes before the weekend and will post the impressions here. He has a couple of more he said I should try. So I will probably give them a quick whirl.


----------



## jeffbear7

Is there a recommendation for a tube to tame the sibilance or treble spike for the HE 400s?


----------



## gamefreak054

jeffbear7 said:


> Is there a recommendation for a tube to tame the sibilance or treble spike for the HE 400s?


 
 I will have to pop the mullards back in there to test those as I think that did a good job at taming treble. However they have more of a mid-centric presentation over most tubes. Otherwise I hate to sound repetitive but I felt that the amperex/philips holland/france tubes tamed it a decent amount on my ADs. I would avoid the Sylvania and Telefunken ones I tried as those could be harsh sounding and did not help sibilance what so ever.  I  can not speak to how these tubes would sound on the HE 400s though.


----------



## connieflyer

I have two of the Sylvania 6 DJ8's and do not find them to be harsh or sibilant.  I also have an Amperex "Bugle Boy" 6DJ8 and it is just a small bit sibilant, the mids and bass are great.  Don't know why you are seeing this sibilance but I have not seen it.  Perhaps th difference in headphone or Ember settings.


----------



## gamefreak054

connieflyer said:


> I have two of the Sylvania 6 DJ8's and do not find them to be harsh or sibilant.  I also have an Amperex "Bugle Boy" 6DJ8 and it is just a small bit sibilant, the mids and bass are great.  Don't know why you are seeing this sibilance but I have not seen it.  Perhaps th difference in headphone or Ember settings.


 
 I was more so talking about the 12Ax7s and 12AT7s, which do not always sound the same as it siblings. It would also depend on the tube you have. The amperex 6DJ8 is harsher than the 12AT7s and 12AX7s I have. I have no idea about the sylvania 6 volts. 
  
 I guess I should have been clearer in the other post, but I kinda figured he could just take a peek at the first page.


----------



## jexby

Having owned a Lyr for about a year, and dug through reviews then collected a number of 6DJ8 tubes like:
   RTC French E188CC 1960s gold pins
   Ediswan CV2492
   Matsu Nationals
 still perhaps wanting
  Siemens ECC88 (or similar) for soundstage, clarity and even-ness across the spectrum.
  
 With my Ember going to be ordered in March, and a number of (new to me) tube families available for this amp,
 can anyone make a comparison between 6DJ8 and 12AT7 (or others) , by specific manufacturer?
  
  Siemens 6DJ8 variant would be better / worse (sound or microphonics or # hours) vs. Siemens 12AT7
 or
  Amperex 6DJ8 vs. Amperex 12AT7 
  
  
 or can no direct correlations in manufacture be made between these tube families, and it's caveat emptor?
 thanks for any guidelines to these 12A* tubes available these days.


----------



## gamefreak054

jexby said:


> Having owned a Lyr for about a year, and dug through reviews then collected a number of 6DJ8 tubes like:
> RTC French E188CC 1960s gold pins
> Ediswan CV2492
> Matsu Nationals
> ...


 
 Its kind of hard to compare the two as they are different gains, and is harder to volume match. From what I have heard comparing the Bugle Boy Holland 6DJ8, Bugle Boy Holland 12AX7,  and Phillips France Miniwatt 12AT7 (French ones have same Holland construction). The 12AX7 and 12AT7 were very close sounding, but the 6DJ8 had somewhat similar qualities that were reduced. The 12 volt tubes sounded like they had bigger sound stage, and were smoother.


----------



## jexby

Thanks for the general tips and possible differences in 12volt tubes, EXACTLY what I was looking/hoping for.
 Once the Ember arrives was hoping to focus on finding a couple good NOS 12volt tubes to roll in,
 especially excited for them now if the soundstage can be bigger, yet retain good balance and separation.


----------



## Johan-71

I need to update my list of tubes since I bought my HE-500. I had the HE-400 before and they needed  smother tubes.
 I bought some new tubes after i gott them, and my new favorite is Telefunken E88CC.
 I can also recommend Philips E88CC SQ and Mullard E88CC/01.
 I didn't like Siemens E88CC, sounded harsh. Maybe a bad tube?
 I also tried an unknown 7308, bought it from UK from a seller who had a bunch of NOS unknown brand.
 It had a lots of air, almost to much but i missed the bottom end, A great tube for acoustic Music.


----------



## J&J

If you have the SC option on PE try some 12bh7/a tubes very musical and inexpensive Plenty of rca/ge on ebay This is the tube Mcantosh made there reputation with


----------



## stupidmop

I love the tall bottles. Rca blackplate 12bh7 is spectacular.


----------



## gamefreak054

I may have to buy the SC kit just to try some 12BH7 my dad uses for his MC60s. He has plenty of those to test out.


----------



## Johan-71

I haven't visited garage1217 for a while, can you order the SC separate now?
Would really want to try 12bh7. One of my friends have Mcintosh monoblocks, I can borrow some of him.
Is there any specific brand i should try out?


----------



## J&J

The super charger is available as diy or send unit to them for install, check site for costs. RCAs are very good I have some 60s gray plates. To be perfectly honest this tube type was a big surprise in Ember


----------



## Johan-71

Thanks, I will mail Jeremy and order one.
I'm beginning to feel like a "tubeohollic", I have spent to much $ on tubes already, but it's so #@**.... fun with tuberolling.
Sorry for my wallet and wellcome to head-fi...


----------



## ericr

Jeremy sells via eBay also. If the Supercharger isn't listed send him a message and I think he'll create a listing for you. He didn't have listings for the Ember with SC and when I messaged him he created a couple of listings right away. I ordered on a Friday evening and it arrived the following Thursday. I'm liking his service!


----------



## ericr

j&j said:


> If you have the SC option on PE try some 12bh7/a tubes very musical and inexpensive Plenty of rca/ge on ebay This is the tube Mcantosh made there reputation with







stupidmop said:


> I love the tall bottles. Rca blackplate 12bh7 is spectacular.







j&j said:


> ... RCAs are very good I have some 60s gray plates. To be perfectly honest this tube type was a big surprise in Ember




My Ember with SC came this week! Could you guys give detailed enough description of these tubes that a tube newb like myself could head off to eBay and find the same?


----------



## Johan-71

I found some helpful reading about 12BH7A tubes.
 http://oldstockaudio.blogspot.se/2010/05/12bh7-listening-test.html


----------



## stupidmop

ericr said:


> My Ember with SC came this week! Could you guys give detailed enough description of these tubes that a tube newb like myself could head off to eBay and find the same?


 
   I think there are only Brimar and US made 12bh7, I am frequently wrong tho so FWIW. I can only compare GE grayplates and RCA blackplates and they're similar. The RCAs have a SOLID low end and buttery mids. Highs are dead neutral. Really nice soundstage. The GEs have a little more air to em. What I notice most switching from a 12au7 to these is the body and smoothness these tall bottles add. I also don't own an ember, this is on my sunrise II. 
  
 EDIT: Just read article above...LOL, frequently wrong, amperex made a tall bottle


----------



## gamefreak054

johan-71 said:


> Thanks, I will mail Jeremy and order one.
> I'm beginning to feel like a "tubeohollic", I have spent to much $ on tubes already, but it's so #@**.... fun with tuberolling.
> Sorry for my wallet and wellcome to head-fi...


 
 Lol, I consider my self to be very lucky that I can try a crap load of tubes without spending a dime. I have spent around $35ish in tubes (philips 12AT7 pair for $15 off ebay, and bugle boy 6DJ8 for $20). Even with all tubes I have access to, my Philips tube rarely leaves my amp. It just seems to compliment the AD's to well. It increases everything its good at, and decreases its treble harshness.


----------



## richbass

gamefreak054 said:


> *Project Ember Tube Rolling*​  ​


 
  
 Thank you for the wonderful review. I am looking for its power output (mW) at 16 to 600 ohm but can't seem to find it anywhere. Please share the same if you know it.
 I just learnt that the OUTPUT STAGE of Project Ember is SOLID STATE and not TUBE !! Is this true ?


----------



## gamefreak054

gamefreak054 said:


>


 
  
  


richbass said:


> Thank you for the wonderful review. I am looking for its power output (mW) at 16 to 600 ohm but can't seem to find it anywhere. Please share the same if you know it.
> I just learnt that the OUTPUT STAGE of Project Ember is SOLID STATE and not TUBE !! Is this true ?


 
 Check the graph above for power output, and yes the project ember is a hybrid tube amp so it has a solid state output stage. If you are worried if it does not sound Tubey enough, dont be. Swapping tubes still makes huge differences in the sound.
  
 As a quick favor do you mind deleting the quoted section of your reply? No offense but it clutters up threads when scrolling with a large quote.


----------



## musicman2006

Hi, tube noob here. Iv'e been playing around with my new Ember and love it ! I previously had a PSII and with both I think I enjoyed listening to the 6 volt tubes most like the 6dj8 sylvania, bugle boy and 6N23P rockets. 
 Has anyone tried 5751 tubes ? Power wise they seem to be in between 6 and 12 volts and have had a nice effect on listening.


----------



## stupidmop

I love my sylvania 5751, has a sweet tone no other tube has. Bass thumps, mids are gorgeous, highs are perfect. No distortion at all, unlike my rca rca blk plt sqare getter 12ax7, which sounds great but has a high level of distortion. The 5751 version is nice and smooth. GE made a good one also. Has great bass slam. Hope that helped.


----------



## musicman2006

I'm glad someone else thought the same as me on the Sylvania 5751. I think I'll be looking out for more 5751's from now on, especially triple mica ones. So far I just have the Sylvania one and a GE 5 star. The GE is great and I agree with what you said, I also think it is a little hot in the treble though, so I just reduce the output impedance on my amp and that takes of that.


----------



## rmouser

Hello all,
  
 I'll chime in on the 5751. I like them enough to have five. I play them in my Ember and PS2. To me, they have a solid state like sound but still tubey!


----------



## stupidmop

@musicman2006 Yes I find the treble hot on the ge 5 star also. Really nice tube other than that. I've read the raytheon black plate windmill 5751 is amazing but no first hand experienceRCA 5751 is no slouch either, they're all expensive tho.
 I'm still using a sunrise II, does the ember sound a whole lot different? I grew up with the mosfet sound so I'm prob partial to it. IME opamps aren't for me. Do you notice as much diff when swapping tubes? I notice it less on my sunrise than I do my fournier but it uses 2 12au7s. I wanna upgrade for the auto bias but if it's more of a power upgrade I'll pass because I already have the crack.


----------



## rmouser

I have both PS2 and Ember. The main difference I see is that the PS2 cannot drive higher impedance phones and the Ember can drive just about ANY dynamic phones. It can drive my 600 ohm Beyer DT880 and AKG Sextett with power to spare. AKG K702 is considered difficult to drive--Ember really brings it to life.
  
 Op amps have FETs in their outputs and use feedback--the PS2 runs in Class A mode with some heat in their outputs. The Ember's outputs run at slightly higher than room temperature. Also, the PS2 runs at 24 volts on the output--the Ember runs at 48 volts--hence the power to drive more den\manding phones.
  
 Soundwise, I use them interchangeably. According to Frans (Solderdude the designer) the outputs on both add no color to the sound and distortion is well below 1%.


----------



## connieflyer

Can you give a fair evaluation between the Sunrise and the crack please? I would be interested in first hand impressions.  On another forum for the hd650 headphone the crack fanboys have pretty much taken over, and that is about all the discuss.  I picked up this ecc83 from amazon and it is pretty good, cheap too.    .......http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002M728Y/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## stupidmop

Cool. Sounds like the crack is all I need. If I didn't have it the ember would be hard to pass up. Jeremy and Frans are onto something here


----------



## nykobing

Has anyone seen a list of the tubes that are supported by the new Supercharger? 6cg7?


----------



## Johan-71

My supercharger are mounted and solderd, just have to wait for the tubes from flebay to show up....
I bought a fivepack used 12bh7a to start with, let the rolling begins....


----------



## musicman2006

Well I found a new flavor-of-the-month tube this week I haven't tried before. It's a Mullard 12AT7/ECC81 which, correct me if I'm wrong, is a lower output than the 12ax7. This one seems to have a great balance between clarity,body and depth whereas in my experience a tube usually gives up one of those qualities for another one.


----------



## gamefreak054

musicman2006 said:


> Well I found a new flavor-of-the-month tube this week I haven't tried before. It's a Mullard 12AT7/ECC81 which, correct me if I'm wrong, is a lower output than the 12ax7. This one seems to have a great balance between clarity,body and depth whereas in my experience a tube usually gives up one of those qualities for another one.


 
 Yes the 12AT7 has a lower gain, but its not nearly as low as something like a 12AU7. My dad knows the numbers, but I know that the 12AT7 gain was decently close to the 12AX7. 
  
 Anyways I am not a huge fan of the Mullards. I think it was the treble that I disliked on those, and it was an overall darkish sounding tube compared to others. Granted it really depends on if the sound sig is a good match for the headphones you are using.


----------



## ericr

johan-71 said:


> I found some helpful reading about 12BH7A tubes.
> http://oldstockaudio.blogspot.se/2010/05/12bh7-listening-test.html


 
  
  


stupidmop said:


> ...I can only compare GE grayplates and RCA blackplates and they're similar. The RCAs have a SOLID low end and buttery mids. Highs are dead neutral. Really nice soundstage. The GEs have a little more air to em. What I notice most switching from a 12au7 to these is the body and smoothness these tall bottles add. I also don't own an ember, this is on my sunrise II.


 
  
 Thanks for the replies.  I've ordered a few tubes from Jeremy's stock at Garage1217:
  
- GE 12BH7 -- long gray plate / red lettering / halo getter
- RCA 6DJ8 
- Russian 6N6P Gold Grid -- gray plate / ufo dual arm getter (at tube to justify buying the Supercharger)
 -RCA 12au7 black plate (for a low gain tube)
  
Looking forward to trying my hand at tube rolling!


----------



## ericr

gamefreak054 said:


> Lol, I consider my self to be very lucky that I can try a crap load of tubes without spending a dime. I have spent around $35ish in tubes (philips 12AT7 pair for $15 off ebay, and bugle boy 6DJ8 for $20). Even with all tubes I have access to, _*my Philips tube rarely leaves my amp*_. It just seems to compliment the AD's to well. It increases everything its good at, and decreases its treble harshness.


 
  
 In your original post you list your favorites:
  
_*My Tube Rankings (from best to worst):*_
*Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX7*
*Telefunken 12AT7*
*...*
  
 Where does the Philips you speak of in the quote fit in your rankings>


----------



## musicman2006

gamefreak054 said:


> Yes the 12AT7 has a lower gain, but its not nearly as low as something like a 12AU7. My dad knows the numbers, but I know that the 12AT7 gain was decently close to the 12AX7.
> 
> Anyways I am not a huge fan of the Mullards. I think it was the treble that I disliked on those, and it was an overall darkish sounding tube compared to others. Granted it really depends on if the sound sig is a good match for the headphones you are using.


 
 I have the HE500 running out of the Ember and on lowest output impedance, the Mullard 12AT7 is a stunning match IMO, bowed strings sounded best with it and other instruments sound like they have much better position in the sound stage, including their depth. Next to that I'd say the GE 5751 is similar with more treble but not as sweet sounding. Then again this is my only Mullard tube so maybe other Mullards do sound darker than mine, idk.


----------



## gamefreak054

ericr said:


> In your original post you list your favorites:
> 
> _*My Tube Rankings (from best to worst):*_
> *Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX7*
> ...


 
 Tied to the Bugle Boy. They sound very very similar. The Philips is a France tube with the Holland Amperex Construction. Both have the same airy detailed qualities that I personally was looking for.
  
@musicman2006- The Mullards I tried do have those qualities, but I guess I found other tubes that did the same large sound stage and positioning but I liked the tone more on other tubes. Granted if you were listening to a lot of acoustic stuff the sound of the mullard could be the best. That is an area the mullard is strong in. I also found it to be one of the best tubes for Daft Punks "Get Lucky". Overall I think the Mullard relied too much in the Midrange for my tastes, and did not have the tone I wanted. So it was a personal preference.


----------



## musicman2006

Yeah I listen to a lot of acoustic stuff, classical jazz and whatever else. The Daft Punk album is great and I do like the Sylvania  or GE 5751 for electronic music. 
 Btw if you have a bugle boy 6dj8, does it sound pretty much the same as the 12AX7 ? The bugle boy I have sounds kind of fuzzy compared to my other tubes. maybe it's just past its prime...


----------



## gamefreak054

musicman2006 said:


> Yeah I listen to a lot of acoustic stuff, classical jazz and whatever else. The Daft Punk album is great and I do like the Sylvania  or GE 5751 for electronic music.
> Btw if you have a bugle boy 6dj8, does it sound pretty much the same as the 12AX7 ? The bugle boy I have sounds kind of fuzzy compared to my other tubes. maybe it's just past its prime...


 
 I did not think it sounded the same as the 12AX7, it had similar qualities but the gains of the tubes are too different. Though mine does not sound fuzzy at all, that kind of sounds like a bad tube or at least some kind of interference or not placing the tube in fully.


----------



## connieflyer

I have a 6dj8 Buble Boy also and it definatly is not fuzzy.  Clear as a bell and a little more detail than my other 6dj8's


----------



## Johan-71

connieflyer said:


> I have a 6dj8 Buble Boy also and it definatly is not fuzzy.  Clear as a bell and a little more detail than my other 6dj8's



+1
I really like my bugle boys, I have several of these beautis. D getter, large and small halo getters. All of them from Heerlen factory Holland.
I prefer them over the orange globe Amperex, a really good tube for HE-400 and 500 IMO.
But I must admit that my favorite tube for HE- 500 is a Telefunken E88cc as an alrounder. Have to wait for the new 12bh7a to show up until i decide which one that's staying in my Ember.


----------



## J&J

The 12AT7 is the tube rollers secret gem. Brent Jesse says there are no bad ones foreign or domestic. I have to say I am using a GE 12AT7 in a Bellari SET HP amp and it blows away anything else. Haven't tried one in my Ember as I am enjoying  my RCA 12BH7. I believe the 12AT7 is 60% gain of a 12AX7 the 12AU7 is 20% gain ???


----------



## gamefreak054

j&j said:


> The 12AT7 is the tube rollers secret gem. Brent Jesse says there are no bad ones foreign or domestic. I have to say I am using a GE 12AT7 in a Bellari SET HP amp and it blows away anything else. Haven't tried one in my Ember as I am enjoying  my RCA 12BH7. I believe the 12AT7 is 60% gain of a 12AX7 the 12AU7 is 20% gain ???


 
 I thought the 12AT7 was a little more, but the 12AU7 sounds correct granted this is going off of memory.
  
 I think one of the problems with the 12AT7 is that they were not made of consistent quality as other tubes. Atleast thats what I remember my dad telling me. He said ok testing tubes would pass inspection back when they were in production more often then the other types of tubes.


----------



## stupidmop

Check this out...http://www.diyguitarist.com/GuitarAmps/SD-Convertible/patgf1.htm
  
 12au7  19
 12at7  60
  
 Also very interesting which explains why I find 6v tubes far superior...IMO,FWIW,YMMV http://www.tubeaudiostore.com/suitof6dfora.html


----------



## rmouser

j&j said:


> The 12AT7 is the tube rollers secret gem. Brent Jesse says there are no bad ones foreign or domestic. I have to say I am using a GE 12AT7 in a Bellari SET HP amp and it blows away anything else. Haven't tried one in my Ember as I am enjoying  my RCA 12BH7. I believe the 12AT7 is 60% gain of a 12AX7 the 12AU7 is 20% gain ???


 
 I have an Amperex 6201 PQ (Premium Quality) which is an "industrialized" 12AT7 with gold pins. At first it seemed kind of dark but with time it has "blossomed" to a very musical sound. It is also rated at 10,000 hours use.


----------



## Johan-71

Finally I got my 12bh7a tubes, enjoying them right now. After a quick round I decided to let a Sylvania black plates with horseshoe getter stay in my Ember.
Very musical with a huge soundstage, almost all songs gets "live feeling".
It's a little more laid back presentation than my 6922/e88cc tubes, you don't have the singer upfront in your face. It's hard to describe it but maybe you could call it more relaxed and musical with lots of air.
Don't know if it suits everyone but for me it's a keeper.


----------



## J&J

That's how I described my experience with the 12BH7A musical


----------



## connieflyer

I don't feel bad for buying 3 of them now.  They are very nice indeed.


----------



## Johan-71

I found a nos E80CC sq for $9, any impressions of the e80cc's?


----------



## connieflyer

I have a pair of these E80CC Tungsram and like them very much. a very solid and clear performer.  I think the 12bh7's are a little warmer sounding, but the E80CC is a very articulate tube.


----------



## TooPoor

I have read and read... and read about tubes. I had a Lyr and had decent success learning how to roll with it. Now I have the Supercharged Ember. I keep looking up all the tubes people post but see *WILDLY *different pricing (EBAY). To simplify things, I own an Ember and HE-500. I'm looking for a tube to open up their soundstage a bit and hit low (decent bass). Can someone literally hold my hand and LINK me to what are good tubes for what I'm looking for? This is what I've looked at...
  
 1. 12AT7/12AX7
 2. Amperex Bugle Boys 6DJ8
 3. 12BH7A
  
  I do appreciate the help!


----------



## ericr

Don't have the HE-500, but with the Beyer T90 and V6-Stage iems the Amprex 6DJ8 has the best soundstage / air / realistic presentation of my 5 tubes. Deep bass, piano is very natural, and lots of detail. I've been enjoying it quite a bit. A Sylvania gold pin 6201 shipped out to me today and I hoping / expecting it to best the Amperex.


----------



## gamefreak054

I think the Amperex Bugle Boys from holland would be perfect. Personally I really like them but the 12AX7s are expensive. I found the french 12AT7s (often branded as Philips Miniwatt which I use pretty much exclusively now) to sound very similar to the 12AX7s. I still do not like the 6DJ8s as well as the 12 volt tubes despite what that one article says. The 12 volts sound better to me. Mullards would probably be a good match for you as well. 
  
  
 Anyways anybody have a list of what the new supercharger allows you to roll? I would like to add them onto the front page, but last time I looked I did not see it on garage1217's site.


----------



## Johan-71

toopoor said:


> I have read and read... and read about tubes. I had a Lyr and had decent success learning how to roll with it. Now I have the Supercharged Ember. I keep looking up all the tubes people post but see *WILDLY* different pricing (EBAY). To simplify things, I own an Ember and HE-500. I'm looking for a tube to open up their soundstage a bit and hit low (decent bass). Can someone literally hold my hand and LINK me to what are good tubes for what I'm looking for? This is what I've looked at...
> 
> 1. 12AT7/12AX7
> 2. Amperex Bugle Boys 6DJ8
> ...



I have a HE-500 and an Ifi idac.
I started to roll some 12bh7a tubes yesterday, it took a little time to get used to them coming from 6922 family. 
They have a huge soundstage, and depending on brand different coloration and presentation. 
My Sylvania yellow print had most air and a laid-back presentation. 
Rca red print halo getter got more upfront sound and more body.
I think I need more time with them to evaluate my personal favorite. 
I like my bugle boys, I think they do everything right. 
You can also try Telefunken and Philps E88CC, and the Russian ones are not bad either. 
6H23P-EV has almost like a loudness feeling, or V- shaped coloration. 
Hard hitting base and crispy highs.
If I had to choose one from each family, I'd say RCA 12bh7a and Telefunken E88CC.
But that's just my opinion. 
I don't think u can go wrong with the 12bh7a family.


----------



## connieflyer

I have an rca, sylvania and a ge 12bh7a and find a little bit of difference between them, but I like them all.  I think, for the Ember it is a good match.  The prices on Ebay are all over the place depending on th hype at the moment.  The Sylvania one was the first one I tried, I paid different prices,  the first one.......http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-GE-12BH7A-12BH7-Amp-Preamp-Tube-for-Ampeg-BlackStar-More-/191090644130?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&nma=true&si=QErfQMjfUG5CEJKTWJyj%252BgmXdPQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
  
 the second one....http://vod.ebay.com/vod/FetchOrderDetails?ViewPaymentStatus&transId=1060501889005&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:VPS&itemid=151245734257&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2673
  
 and the last one...http://vod.ebay.com/vod/FetchOrderDetails?ViewPaymentStatus&transid=951273561020&ssPageName=STRK:MESO:VPS&itemId=300929487754
  
 the last one was new the other two were used.  The used tubes were a bargain, and let me see if I liked the family or not without breaking the bank.  If they last awhile or not, it got me in the door.  The new tube while good, needs more time in to get a little mellower.  I have purchased most tubes from this seller.  Very fast, and responsive to questions and stands behind what he sells.  Has been a seller since 2003, great reputation.   I check his store first when buying a tube and see what he has before I search the general stores.
  
 I would not be afraid of buying old or used tubes.  They give you a glimpse into what the tube family is like.  I even bought a 6DJ8 bugle boy that was part of an estate sale, $8.00 I should have bought more, he had 8 for sale in a plastic bag!  Great sounding tube, and for the money cheap..  I like the12BH7A best, followed close by the 6DJ8's, I am using Sennheiser HD650's with the Ember coming off an Asus Essence STX sound card, rca outs.  Good luck on your search, don't start out trying to buy tubes that cost as much as your amp, experiment with the used tubes till you find what works for you.  Most tubes will work fine, and the differences between them are actually quite small as far as how they sound, but when you find the ones that are the best for YOU, you will know it.  Subtle changes in the music presentation, will let you know you have found what you want.  Spend time with each tube for awhile, and then go back to another tube and you will hear the difference and know where to go from there.  All the best, Don


----------



## connieflyer

For some good reading and to get an idea of what people are talking about when they describe what they hear, read this,  it is a few years old but the facts are the same.  
  
http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#12AX7
  
http://oldstockaudio.blogspot.com/
  
http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm
  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vacuum_tubes


----------



## TooPoor

All great stuff guys, thanks. I'll read through it and start trying some new tubes.


----------



## musicman2006

I have an he500 with Ember as well and i think the GE triple mica with black plates and D getter are fantastic for solid punchy bass and good sound stage in my experience. They seem to going for 30-40 on eBay but well worth the money IMO. 
Also I redact my previous comment on the 6dj8 holland bugle boy. I last listened to it on different equipment and apparently my memory was fuzzy, not the tube lol. It's a great tube.


----------



## Johan-71

Hi, has anyone of you tried 6n6p or ecc99? 
I found some of them really cheap on ebay so I ordered one of each of them. 
Just curious about the sound.


----------



## rmouser

An interesting thing about the 6N(or H)P. It is also used as the power tube in the Little Dot MKIII, which I also have. It can't be used in a stock Ember--too much heater current draw, about 800 ma.
  
 I run one in my PS2 until I upgrade my Ember. I find the sound to be similar to a 5751, very robust and punchy.
  
 It also sounds good in the LD MKIII


----------



## hojomojo96

This might be a silly question, but I am in the market to get a Project Ember to pair with my aune t1 and LCD 2, and I was wondering what the 1a+ sc heater option did? I tried google but came up blank.


----------



## gamefreak054

rmouser said:


> An interesting thing about the 6N(or H)P. It is also used as the power tube in the Little Dot MKIII, which I also have. It can't be used in a stock Ember--too much heater current draw, about 800 ma.
> 
> I run one in my PS2 until I upgrade my Ember. I find the sound to be similar to a 5751, very robust and punchy.
> 
> It also sounds good in the LD MKIII


 
  
 You do know about the supercharger that makes it a 1a heater right? Or are you just saying the oldish embers without them.


hojomojo96 said:


> This might be a silly question, but I am in the market to get a Project Ember to pair with my aune t1 and LCD 2, and I was wondering what the 1a+ sc heater option did? I tried google but came up blank.


 
 Allows for more tubes to be used, mainly tubes that required more heater current.


----------



## Johan-71

Well I just have to wait and see for myself. My question was directed to the members with Ember+supercharger, thanks anyway.

I think I will have my E80CC SQ today, depends on the lousy Swedish post office. ..
My 6n6p will come at the end of next week.

By the way, thanks for the recommendation of the 12bh7a tubes. I don't remember who told me about it but the RCA red lettering, halo getter is pure magic.


----------



## hojomojo96

gamefreak054 said:


> Allows for more tubes to be used, mainly tubes that required more heater current.



Ah okay, thanks!


----------



## zoolzoo

I wish I could say I could notice more of a difference when changing tubes on this amp. So far I've tried: Stock tube, NOS Amperex Orange Globe, NOS Amperex Bugle Boy, and a few other 6v and 12v selections I picked up. I have tried all three impedance settings with MS2i's and DT990 Pro's, and Im really not sure if I can REALLY hear the difference...and I am a musician with pretty damn good ears. Is it because its a hybrid amp and not an OTL perhaps? Or is it just me?


----------



## gamefreak054

zoolzoo said:


> I wish I could say I could notice more of a difference when changing tubes on this amp. So far I've tried: Stock tube, NOS Amperex Orange Globe, NOS Amperex Bugle Boy, and a few other 6v and 12v selections I picked up. I have tried all three impedance settings with MS2i's and DT990 Pro's, and Im really not sure if I can REALLY hear the difference...and I am a musician with pretty damn good ears. Is it because its a hybrid amp and not an OTL perhaps? Or is it just me?


 
 Strange I can instantly hear the difference. Generally when I listen for the differences between them I listen for certain things in the same song. There is a huge tonal difference between something like a Bugle Boy and a Telefunken to my ears, along with the comparison to the stock tube.


----------



## zoolzoo

gamefreak054 said:


> Strange I can instantly hear the difference. Generally when I listen for the differences between them I listen for certain things in the same song. There is a huge tonal difference between something like a Bugle Boy and a Telefunken to my ears, along with the comparison to the stock tube.


 
  
  
 Hmmm ya. I guess I was expecting an obvious "overall" change in sound, maybe I can try focusing in on something. But then if I have to focus to notice should I really care?


----------



## stupidmop

zoolzoo said:


> Hmmm ya. I guess I was expecting an obvious "overall" change in sound, maybe I can try focusing in on something. But then if I have to focus to notice should I really care?


 
 Save yourself lots of $ and pain...go solid state


----------



## zoolzoo

stupidmop said:


> Save yourself lots of $ and pain...go solid state


 
 I have a magni on my night stand.


----------



## connieflyer

Well when the new ss amp is ready from Garage 1217, you will have even more choices.  It sounds like a pretty decent offering from what Jeremy is saying.


----------



## rmouser

gamefreak054 said:


> rmouser said:
> 
> 
> > An interesting thing about the 6N(or H)P. It is also used as the power tube in the Little Dot MKIII, which I also have. It can't be used in a stock Ember--too much heater current draw, about 800 ma.
> ...


 

 Yes, I do know. I am saying that I was  playing the 6N6P before the SC was conceived.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

*Anyone want to go halfies with me on a Mullard 12ax7 cv4004 and Telefunken 12at7?* Both tubes with good tests for $43 shipped to USA. The Mullard is from Tubemaze and TeleFunken from an eBay seller, I'd be willing to share link/proof of purchase. Only need 1 of each and sellers are selling in pairs, PM if interested.

Quoted from OP:

*Mullard CV4004*
This particular tube was amazing with Daft Punk. This would be the tube to buy if you wanted an upgraded Mad Dog sound signature and owned the Alpha Dogs. It gave it a bit darker presentation, with good mids and decent bass. It was lacking a bit in treble, with a bit more sibilance than other tubes. The sound stage sounded a bit reduced. Overall this was a decent sounding tube.




*Telefunken 12AT7 *
This was by favorite tube of the AT7 family I tested. It had the best details of all the tubes listed. It did not do anything bad nor did it do excel at any one thing (other than detail). It was my favorite flat tube, and probably the tube I will use the majority of the time. I did find the treble could be a bit harsh at times, but I think that is mostly due to the detail. My brother found this tube to be a bit tinny sounding, and my dad found the bass a touch lacking. However neither bugged me too much. As I found its other traits to pay off. This tube also had a really crisp sound to it. Just an great balanced tube over all.


----------



## akarise

Has anyone tried an Amperex 7308 white PQ shield type tube with their Project Ember? I'm currently using an Amperex HP 6DJ8 with white lettering made in Holland but I'm thinking about upgrading to the 7308 in the near future.


----------



## Johan-71

If you have the supercharger try one from the 12BH7A family. 
You can find a silvania or RCA for $20-30.
Worth a try in my opinion. 

I have a few 7308 tubes from different brands but not from Amperex but I don't use them after I bought my 12bh7a tubes.


----------



## akarise

johan-71 said:


> If you have the supercharger try one from the 12BH7A family.
> You can find a silvania or RCA for $20-30.
> Worth a try in my opinion.
> 
> I have a few 7308 tubes from different brands but not from Amperex but I don't use them after I bought my 12bh7a tubes.


 
  
 Thanks for the recommendation, I'll keep those in mind as I look for an upgrade.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

johan-71 said:


> If you have the supercharger try one from the 12BH7A family.
> You can find a silvania or RCA for $20-30.
> Worth a try in my opinion.
> 
> I have a few 7308 tubes from different brands but not from Amperex but I don't use them after I bought my 12bh7a tubes.


 

 What kind of gain do those amps have in relative to the 12AX7s? More or less?


----------



## Johan-71

The 12bh7a tube gain is 16,5.
So it's lower.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

johan-71 said:


> The 12bh7a tube gain is 16,5.
> So it's lower.


 

 Thanks for the reply! I might go ahead and try that tube.

 Just for reference, do you know the gain on the stock tube?


----------



## Johan-71

It depends on what tube you got, I think Jeremy has delivered the Ember with different tubes.


----------



## connieflyer

johan-71 said:


> Hi, has anyone of you tried 6n6p or ecc99?
> I found some of them really cheap on ebay so I ordered one of each of them.
> Just curious about the sound.


 
 Have been using an ECC99 for a little while now and I must say, it (seems) to have a bit of an edge over the 12bh7's.  You can not go wrong with this tube, if you like the 12bh7's you will love this one too.  I got it from tubemaze, it is a 6H6N which is the upgrade from the 6N6P-30. Very quiet, black backgrounds, vocals excell on this tube.  Have two now. Have been listening to all the tube's I have collected and think I may have to sell of some that don't get much air time.


----------



## Johan-71

My Russian (6n6p)/6H6n sounds beautiful, it sounds almost like my 12bh7a that I listen to now (Silvania). I think that 12bh7a has a little more air and a little bit larger soundstage, 6H6n has more body and sounds warmer so I alternate those two depending what I listen to.I found it on Ebay for $20 with free shipping to Sweden. I think it needs more time to open up, only got 20 hours with it so far but it really sounds promising. 
I have to many tubes too, I built up my tube stash around my HE-400. They needed some warmer tubes so I have a whole bunch of them that I don't use anymore. I don't know if it's just me, but to my ears all of the tubes that needed the supercharger sounds more relaxed and fuller.


----------



## Johan-71

Forgot to ask, what do you think about E80CC? 
I have 2 NOS Philips E88CC SQ and I only need one. Interested? 


Johan


----------



## connieflyer

I have two of the E80CC by Tungsram.  One I use occasionally the other still has not been put in the amp.  I liked it enough to buy two of them, figured in case one bit the dust.  But now that I have so many tubes I will probably bit the dust first.  I have six 6DJ8's and one 7DJ8 already, that is a nice tube you have there and I probably could not afford it.  How do you like the Phillips E88CC SQ?


----------



## Johan-71

I remembered from another forum that you had the tungsram.
I made a typo, ment Philips E80CC SQ nos. It's yours for $20.
I do have some nos e88cc also but they don't get so much time anymore. 
My favorite tube from e88cc family is aTelefunke
I think I have to go through my tubes again, I bought a new Dac 2 days ago so I've been concentrated on my new toy. 
I have a whole bunch of European e88cc tubes that I don't use, I always try to buy them on a pair. It's cheaper and you always have a spare. 
Send me a PM if you're interested in something special. 

Johan


----------



## connieflyer

What kind of Dac did you get?  Let us know how you like it and a little synopsis of it.  As far as the tubes, I think for now I better stop buying, have more than I will use, I was always on the hunt for awhile, just could not keep my finger off the BUY button!


----------



## Johan-71

I know the feeling, just one more and then the waiting for the mailman to show up. 
I'm a "tube o hollic" and proud of it. ....
I bought a Arcam IrDac, I've been using an ifi idac and a HRTms2 earlier and must say that this was a huge step up. 
Everything is so much more controlled and organic, picking up new details from old songs. The tube rolling is also more fun, it's easier to pick up the difference between the tubes. 
Overall it's a polite and very balanced sound signature, in a good way. 
Got more tredimensionell soundstage, especially the depth has increased.
It also has an input for I devices but im a Android guy...
It's definitely worth a listening if you got the chance. 
About the tubes, I prefer to benefit a fellow head-fier then put it out on ebay. I'm not trying to tempt you or maybe I am...haha.


----------



## connieflyer

No problem, no temptation at all, well maybe a little, okay probably alot, boy this gets harder all the time to just not buy tubes.  I will be fine for a short time, read an article about this tube or that and next thing you know, I have to try it myself!  Thank you for the offer, I really must go through my tubes again, just put in a 12ax7 that I thought I did not care for, but decided to let it burn in for awhile, and now I don't know why I did not care for it at first.  It is a new JJ tube, 10 bucks on amazon thought I would try it to see if the family of tubes would be worth exploring,  Not bad at all, might have to try an NOS something or other!


----------



## J&J

Using a 6n2p in E with SC VERY NICE similar to 6nip but more fleshed out sound. These Russians are not expensive. Give one a try. Garage 1217 has some


----------



## akarise

So I recently splurged on an Amperex 7308 PQ (early large halo getter type, white lettering, Valvo branded, made in Holland, early 1960s) for my Project Ember. Although it hasn't been broken in yet, it is already a noticeable improvement over my Amperex 6DJ8 (white lettering, made in Holland for HP). There is a great deal more detail and soundstage is a bit larger. I'm noticing small nuances in the music that I couldn't hear with the 6DJ8. Imaging is crystal clear with the 7308 and everything is so defined throughout the entire sound spectrum. Noise floor has lowered to the point where it is basically inaudible unless you really try to hear for it when no music is playing. Vocals sound absolutely beautiful and everything just sounds so natural.
  
 I'm listening out of an AD2000X, with a Geek Out 450 as the DAC.


----------



## Johan-71

If you like the Russian tubes you should try
6H23P-EV.
If you liked the sound signature of 6n2p
you probably gonna appreciate that too. 
And if you have the supercharger, try 6n6p. 



j&j said:


> Using a 6n2p in E with SC VERY NICE similar to 6nip but more fleshed out sound. These Russians are not expensive. Give one a try. Garage 1217 has some


----------



## ericr

akarise said:


> So I recently splurged on an Amperex 7308 PQ (early large halo getter type, white lettering, Valvo branded, made in Holland, early 1960s) for my Project Ember. Although it hasn't been broken in yet, it is already a noticeable improvement over my Amperex 6DJ8 (white lettering, made in Holland for HP). There is a great deal more detail and soundstage is a bit larger. I'm noticing small nuances in the music that I couldn't hear with the 6DJ8. Imaging is crystal clear with the 7308 and everything is so defined throughout the entire sound spectrum. Noise floor has lowered to the point where it is basically inaudible unless you really try to hear for it when no music is playing. Vocals sound absolutely beautiful and everything just sounds so natural.
> 
> I'm listening out of an AD2000X, with a Geek Out 450 as the DAC.




Interesting. The Amperex 6DJ8 is one of my top 5 favorite tubes so I might have to get a 7308 to try. How much did yours set you back?

Also, how are you liking the GO 450? Do you have any other DADs to compare it to?

Thanks!


----------



## akarise

ericr said:


> Interesting. The Amperex 6DJ8 is one of my top 5 favorite tubes so I might have to get a 7308 to try. How much did yours set you back?
> 
> Also, how are you liking the GO 450? Do you have any other DADs to compare it to?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
 I spent $175 and got it from Brent Jessee at audiotubes.com. I know it's a ton to be spending on a tube and I think it's possible to get the white label 7308 PQ at cheaper prices but Brent is a wonderful guy to deal with and very knowledgeable about tubes. I guess I paid in part for the peace of mind that I was getting a totally authentic and tested tube. Totally worth it and I don't plan on getting other tubes so just went for the best I thought I could get instead of buying tons of cheap tubes.
  
 The GO 450 is amazing. It's very detailed, spacious, and well balanced with a very slight hint of warmth in the lower frequencies. For what I paid, it was a huge bargain. I only have the GO 100 and HiFimeDIY Sabre DAC to compare it to. The GO 100 is basically the same thing but for IEMs and the Sabre DAC doesn't even come close to touching the Geek Outs. It sounds thin and isn't as 3D in comparison to the Geek Outs. I heard my friend's DX90 the other day and the GO 450 held its own against it.


----------



## ericr

Thanks!


----------



## akarise

Yeah np!


----------



## ericr

OK, I now have about 15 different tubes for the Ember and thought it was time to give some feedback to this thread.  Work is really busy and my daughter is getting married this weekend so no time for a detailed multi-tube review right now so instead I thought I'd post a bit about my favorite tube so far.
  
 Close competitors:
  
 Raytheon 6QF7/6CG7
 Amperex 6DJ8/ECC88
 Sylvania Gold Brand 6201
 Mazda 4-Star 12AT7WA (a really nice tube that might have won if it was a bit lower gain)
  
 Winner:
 Westinghouse Carbon Plate 12AU7A
  
 Learned about these here: http://www.tubemaze.info/westinghouse-12au7-carbon-plates/ .  Found a good deal on a pair on ebay with the Conn label.
  
 Overall:
 This tube is a bit toward the warm side without sacrificing detail.
  
 Bass:
 Nice deep bass extension, tone and impact. No mid-bass hump or bleed into the mids. Good texture and detail.  Doesn't add bass that isn't in the recording, however it does bring out all of the bass in a recording.
  
 Mid Range:
 Rich and sweet, without sacrificing texture and detail.  Excellent for strings and gives realism to the piano beyond my other tubes.  Male and female vocals are clear, forward and.well, rich and sweet.  The combination of warmth and detail makes for some mice guitar distortion, too.
  
 High End:
 While a couple of my other warmer tubes suffer from considerably rolled off treble, it's not a problem in this case. While the highs don't have the "wow" in your face nature of the Mazda, if you listen you find they extend nicely and the tube delivers considerable high-end detail.  One added bonus is the almost complete lack of sibilance.  Cymbals are very clear and natural sounding.
  
 Soundstage:
 Wide, tall and deep.
  
 Presentation:
 Open, airy, and very realistic. Good instrument placement and separation.  Room resonances are impressive on well done live recordings (i.e., Amber Rubarth's Sessions from the 17th Ward).
  
  
 Configuration:
 FLAC > Foobar > ODAC or Uber Bifrost > 1964 Ears V6-Stage (also, Beyer T90 and Earsonics SM64)
 Note: the V6-Stage are soundstage and detail monsters and it's nice to find a tube that let's the Ember drive them to their best.  Also, it's my opinion the solid state section keeps the Ember very fast and prevents warm tubes such as the Westinghouse from rendering the sound as slow or mushy, which serves to preserve details (low to high).
  
 -Eric


----------



## GrdironTrenches

where can 12AX7VKA Russian tube. is it listed on Project Ember website


----------



## karnakhawai

HI...i am michel, member of french's TELLEMENT NOMADE site..
 I am looking for a russian "sunrise " 12ax7vka tube, and it is very difficult to find it...garage1217 as none...cedist told the same..and i look everywhere to buy one, but still unsucessfully.
 This tube is to be tested on my project ember +AKG K712...like ASR did it on his review..
 Any help to find one will be so much apreciated..
 Thanks


----------



## nykobing

Don't be so worried about finding that 12ax7vka tube. I guess you read this part of his review, "The 12AX7VKA had it all over the other tubes when it came to driving specifically the K712." That is going to happen with any 5751 / 12ax7 tube and most any NOS tube will wipe the floor with that newly made Russian tube. The best in the 5751 / 12ax7 tubes I have tried in the Ember is actually a French tube, a Mazda 5751, it has more detail than my Sylvania 5751 black plate triple mica, which is my second favorite. The GE triple mica black plate is great as well. I have only tried a few 12ax7s, but they were a lot noisier than the 5751s.


----------



## karnakhawai

Thanks a lot nykobing...your reply is a good help to find the best tube to drive my akg k712...i will be looking for that mazda 5751.
 It's true that the asr comments on k712 + ember + 12ax7vka...started my quest to find that tube, and i am sur i will find one later, as i realy want to hear that...but i will certainly buy some others tubes as well, and your recomendations will help me a lot...just expecting that the tubes you mention, are not as difficult to find as the sunrise and not too much overpriced...
 Thanks again


----------



## Asr

karnakhawai said:


> I am looking for a russian "sunrise " 12ax7vka tube, and it is very difficult to find it...garage1217 as none...cedist told the same..and i look everywhere to buy one, but still unsucessfully. This tube is to be tested on my project ember +AKG K712...like ASR did it on his review..
> Any help to find one will be so much apreciated..
> Thanks


 
  
 Don't bother looking for a 12AX7VKA, I was told by Garage1217 that it's a rare tube and it was from their personal collection. The only reason it was included with the Project Ember review unit was to offer a high-gain option for driving inefficient headphones. Many other high-gain tubes would also work, ask either here on the forum or Garage1217 for advice. I have no experience with any other tubes and can't offer any info either. Btw, sorry but I don't respond to PMs for personal reasons. If you have any follow-up questions, please post here in the thread instead and others will also be able to help.
  
 It's likely that you'd get similar or even better results with another tube, as nykobing mentioned. I even mentioned (twice) in the review the Tung-Sol 12AX7 as a possible alternative, did you miss those mentions?
  
 I just updated the review with a note on the rarity of the 12AX7VKA btw, since both you and GrdironTrenches posted that you were looking for one. As advice to everyone, don't bother trying to look for a 12AX7VKA, very unlikely one would be found anywhere anytime soon (and even if one showed up, I'd bet it would be very expensive). And just because I used it doesn't necessarily mean anyone else should, regardless of what I wrote about it. There are so many varieties of tubes available that it's more likely to find something that would sound even better anyway.


----------



## karnakhawai

Thanks a lot asr, for your reply...i will end now, my quest for sunrise 12ax7vka...if it's so difficult to find.
 Jeremy told me to use an 6n2p, and i allready bought an 6n2p-ev..that is very similar ( but not yet tested)...
 Well i will for sure buy some other tubes, following feedbacks on headfi an french TN...
 I am sorry for the mp, asr...will post directly on apropriate treads...
 Have a nice day...


----------



## zoolzoo

akarise said:


> Has anyone tried an Amperex 7308 white PQ shield type tube with their Project Ember? I'm currently using an Amperex HP 6DJ8 with white lettering made in Holland but I'm thinking about upgrading to the 7308 in the near future.


 
  
 Wondering the same thing. I have the white label 6DJ8 and Orange globe, and I like them both at this point. The last tube I was thinking about picking up is the 7308.


----------



## akarise

zoolzoo said:


> Wondering the same thing. I have the white label 6DJ8 and Orange globe, and I like them both at this point. The last tube I was thinking about picking up is the 7308.


 
  
 You should go for it! A noticeable upgrade. I posted a comparison a few posts earlier about a week ago.


----------



## ericr

IIRC, the guy who started this thread (gamefreak) also liked the 6 volt amperex quite a lot, and the 12 volt even more.
  
 Hopefully someone else will give the Westinghouse 12AU7 I reviewed a bit above a try, and maybe compare to the 7308. To my ears Westinghouse are better than my 6 volt amperex (which was my previous favorite).  Another point in favor of these is the price.  I picked up two on ebay for under $20!


----------



## Amish

Based off the review from the OP I picked up a new old stock 1961 Amperex Holland Bugle Boy 12AX7. I cannot wait to try this thing out.


----------



## connieflyer

ericr said:


> IIRC, the guy who started this thread (gamefreak) also liked the 6 volt amperex quite a lot, and the 12 volt even more.
> 
> Hopefully someone else will give the Westinghouse 12AU7 I reviewed a bit above a try, and maybe compare to the 7308. To my ears Westinghouse are better than my 6 volt amperex (which was my previous favorite).  Another point in favor of these is the price.  I picked up two on ebay for under $20!


 
 I have been using the Westinghouse from tubemaze for about 6 months now.  I trade it in and out as it was at the top of my list of tubes that I had.  It is a very nice tube your description of it is accurate as far as I can tell.  I am using hd650's with Ember, dac is an Emovtiva xda-2. I purchased a cv4024 Mullard from Brent Jesse and like it a little better.  I also trade in and out the Edicron 7dj8, which I like better than my amperex bugle boy 6dj8. Have been listening to a Westinghouse blaack plate 12av7 and am liking what I hear.  Have not used it for awhile, grapped it my mistake when I was reaching for the 12au7 and this tube is much better than I remember. Can't say for sure which tube I like the best, all have there pluses and minus'.  I think I would rate the Mullard CV4024 first Westinghouse black 12au7 and 12av7 next and then the Edicrom 7dj8.  It is time to sell off the tubes I don't use much, make room for new!


----------



## Amish

I am no audiophile. I'm just a guy that loves good sounding music. I'll do my best to describe my tubes.
  
  
 Well I've had a week with some tubes, a few days with others and tonight for several more. Instead of talking about the brands I can add some input on the tube types I like the most. Keep in mind that I have not spent hours on end with all of these tubes except for the '64 Amperex 12ax7 (which sounds amazing)
  
 All tubes were ran on the amp with low gain, bypass enabled, and medium res.
  
 So I tend to gravitate towards the 12ax7's the most. (I own several Amperex tubes in this category; all Bugle Boys except one Polytronics Lab branded Amperex and the Tungsol 12ax7).  
 All of them have REALLY up front vocals, a ton of mid range punch with strong highs. Bass is good but doesn't stand out as much; but seems accurate which I prefer when listening to music. Great separation, (instruments). Due to the big gain on these tubes they can seem a little on the bright side. Not the tube I'd use with my Grado but work well with my LCD-2.
  
 The Tungsol 12ax7 is the worst of the bunch. This is a replica Russian tube based off the vintage tubes and it just kinda blows. It's okay but not a tube that I'll use again. Compared to the vintage Amperex tubes it doesn't even compete.
  
*Next* we have the 12au7's. (JJ and Westinghouse with Westinghouse clearly winning.) These have a more mellow smooth sound to them. I guess a bit on the warmer side. the entire FR seems to be more neutral. Vocals are back with the rest of the band. I think these are good, not great and work well with my Grado though for the LCD-2 I prefer the 12ax7 or 12at7 or just about anything else I have. The JJ 12au7 is prettty good. Sounds kinda like my SS amp and is a little grainy. It's a decent tube but I'll not be using it again.
  
*Next* we have the 12at7 (Telefunken) Man where do I start? This one sounds amazing and I think this is the nicest sounding tube I own. Higher gain than the 12au7 but not as high as the 12ax7. Amazing separation, great clarity, not quite neutral but close, vocals are slightly forward, mids are very clean, If any tube was 3d it is this one. Bass has punch very much like the 12ax7; not super deep or anything but clean and realistic sounding to me. All in all this tube sounds beautiful. I like it a lot!!
  
*Next* we have the 6dj8 tubes. (I own two of these. A vintage Amperex bugle boy gold pin and a vintage Siemens (Zenith branded)) These believe it or not both sound different from one another. The bugle boy sounds a lot like the other Amperex 12ax7's but without the gain. So everything I said about the Amperex 12ax7's fits in with this tube but the gain is much lower. The Siemens is what is in my amp right now. Not as clean as the others and vocals are more 'back with the band' everything seems pushed back slightly in sound but good separation, pretty neutral sounding compared to the Amperex 6dj8 but good sounding and even though it's not quite as clean; it's still clean enough to sit back and enjoy. The Amperex really kicks it up a notch though.
  
  
 So that's it. My take so far. I expect all of these tubes to get better with use and I have yet to run my amp in conjunction with my Oritek Audio OMZ dac V4.1 as I am waiting for my blue jeans cable to come in. So I'm using my Harman Kardon 3490 as a preamp. I expect once the Oritek is hooked up to the amp I will get even better sound out of each of these tubes. I might then
 re-evaluate each of these tubes and update this.
  
 Let me rank my tubes in the order of best to worst sounding (to my ears):
  

1960 Telefunken 12AT7
1964 Amperex Holland treble clef logo Bugle Boy 12ax7
1961 AMPEREX BUGLE BOY 12AX7
Polytronics Lab 12ax7 (Amperex Holland)
Amperex Bugle Boy Holland 6DJ8 ECC88 Large D Getter GOLD PIN
1968 SIEMENS ECC88 6DJ8
Westinghouse black plate 12au7
Westinghouse black plate 12au7
JJ 12au7
Tungsol 12ax7


----------



## pat1984

Has anyone tried using sensitive headphones (sensitive IEMs or even beyer T90) with high gain tubes (like 12AX7) on the ember? I hear a hissing sound with these tubes, is it common?


----------



## Amish

Due to the higher gain of the 12AX7's they can be noisy. Some more than others.


----------



## ericr

Just tried my higher gain tubes and it's like Amish said, some more than others.  The only 12AX7 type tube I have is the Voskhod 6N2P-EV and it had a hiss that was still noticeable at lower volume levels.  Of my 12AT7 (and similar gain) tubes the Tunsram ecc85 was much like the Voskhod, while a Siemens ecc85 is quiet, as is the Sylvania GB 6201.
  
 This is with my 1964Ears V6-Stage which are very sensitive and only 16 Ohms impedance.


----------



## pat1984

amish said:


> Due to the higher gain of the 12AX7's they can be noisy. Some more than others.


 
  
  


ericr said:


> Just tried my higher gain tubes and it's like Amish said, some more than others.  The only 12AX7 type tube I have is the Voskhod 6N2P-EV and it had a hiss that was still noticeable at lower volume levels.  Of my 12AT7 (and similar gain) tubes the Tunsram ecc85 was much like the Voskhod, while a Siemens ecc85 is quiet, as is the Sylvania GB 6201.
> 
> This is with my 1964Ears V6-Stage which are very sensitive and only 16 Ohms impedance.


 
  
 Thanks guys for the quick response. What are your suggestions then? Should I use a higher resistance on the ember? Right now its on low gain and low resistance.


----------



## ericr

1) What is the resistance of your headphones?
2) Do you have the supercharger?


----------



## pat1984

I mostly use my t90 so its 250 ohms and yes i have the supercharger


----------



## ericr

Yes, more resistance will quiet things down some.  I prefer listening to the T90 using the highest R setting as it smooths out the treble.
  
 If you're interested in some lower gain tubes you might consider the 12bh7 (& 12bh7a).  The few I have are very quiet - including when adjusting the volume with the output capacitors bypassed (no scratching / crackling).  Here's a blog post of some 12bh7 listening tests:
  
http://oldstockaudio.blogspot.com/2010/05/12bh7-listening-test.html


----------



## J&J

The 12bh7 in Ember with SC is a real nice warm sounding tube.  I'm using some ge & rca 12bh7. The Russian 6n2p are great high resolution tubes but many are microphonic and generally noisy had to try a few to get good ones but if it's detail your looking for the 6n2p are great IMO and experience


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Recommended by Johan-71, I picked up the Sylvania Red and RCA BH7. Both sound similar and great in their own way. I find it a good match with both HE4s and HE560. Highly recommend them if you have the SC.


----------



## stupidmop

amish said:


> I am no audiophile. I'm just a guy that loves good sounding music. I'll do my best to describe my tubes.
> 
> 
> Well I've had a week with some tubes, a few days with others and tonight for several more. Instead of talking about the brands I can add some input on the tube types I like the most. Keep in mind that I have not spent hours on end with all of these tubes except for the '64 Amperex 12ax7 (which sounds amazing)
> ...


 
   If your Amperex Bugle boy ECC88 has gold pins, I'm pretty sure it's a relabel or something. 6922 or E88CC have the gold pins and most were made in New York. Ones made in Holland have SQ on them I think. If they have the etched Delta code they're legit but I've never seen or heard of a real BB with gold pins. Not sure but might wanna do some research FWIW


----------



## Amish

I have been doing research because like you said I cannot find any info on this model BB with gold pins. They did make them with gold pins but to my knowledge not the 6DJ8 nor with the bugle boy that I can find, and it does not have the delta code on it. The tube looks legit and god knows I've studied it but I cannot find any info on this tube with gold pins. When I first received it I compared it to my other legit holland Bugle Boy tubes and it looks close BUT it has gold pins, no delta, and the stamp up top with the tube model info seems odd to me considering my other BB tubes didn't stamp it like that. Plus when i rub on the logo and lettering it doesn't come off which it should. I even used my finger nail on it. the guy that sold it on ebay has 100% feedback, sells tubes, has loads (I mean thousands) of positive reviews with zero negative. But I have been doubting this tube since day one but because I can't find any real info on this tube I can't say for sure.
  
 I don't know but I think I will contact the seller and see what he says. Here is a picture of it:


----------



## Amish

So I contacted the seller and got the somewhat heated response I expected. He claims that it is 100% legit and he will gladly take it back so he can sell it for way more money to a real audiophile.
  
 So I guess my honest questions mean that I know nothing...which in this case is sort of true because all of the info I have read point to this not being a legit tube but it really does look legit except for the gold pins, no etched date stamp and lettering that does not wipe off.
  
 I don't know what to think at this point.


----------



## ericr

If it sounds good to you does it really matter? The only downside I see is it being hard to recommend to someone else if you're not sure what to tell them to buy.


----------



## Amish

Yeah true.


----------



## Johan-71

I've never seen a bugle boy with red top before, but I have a whole bunch of Russian tubes with gold pins and red tops.
My 6H23P tubes look identical to the one on your pics.
But on the other side I can't say that I have seen all tubes thats been manufactured so I can be wrong. 



amish said:


> I have been doing research because like you said I cannot find any info on this model BB with gold pins. They did make them with gold pins but to my knowledge not the 6DJ8 nor with the bugle boy that I can find, and it does not have the delta code on it. The tube looks legit and god knows I've studied it but I cannot find any info on this tube with gold pins. When I first received it I compared it to my other legit holland Bugle Boy tubes and it looks close BUT it has gold pins, no delta, and the stamp up top with the tube model info seems odd to me considering my other BB tubes didn't stamp it like that. Plus when i rub on the logo and lettering it doesn't come off which it should. I even used my finger nail on it. the guy that sold it on ebay has 100% feedback, sells tubes, has loads (I mean thousands) of positive reviews with zero negative. But I have been doubting this tube since day one but because I can't find any real info on this tube I can't say for sure.
> 
> I don't know but I think I will contact the seller and see what he says. Here is a picture of it:


----------



## richard51

johan-71 said:


> I've never seen a bugle boy with red top before, but I have a whole bunch of Russian tubes with gold pins and red tops.
> My 6H23P tubes look identical to the one on your pics.
> But on the other side I can't say that I have seen all tubes thats been manufactured so I can be wrong.


 

 I read many hours about tube..... The bugle boy is very known tube .... all site about tube had a written a description of it with all its model's variation....I am very surprised that no one made a description like this specimen... I am no specialist.... but..... i am curious about this story....
  
 best regards


----------



## stupidmop

The red paint on the tip usually means an audiophile or someone thought it was special so that's it's mark. Usually tested high or sounded good. FWIW
  A quick google search yielded this http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm
  What he has to say about the fake bugle boys isn't good but like they said if you like it, who cares?


----------



## Johan-71

I have 12 bugle boys and not one of them have colored tips.
All of my Russians have colored tips, red for hifi and green for medical and extra high demands.
I haven't seen or heard about bugle boys with extra high quality demands or special for hifi.
If you can't rub of the paint with your nails it's a new produced print and therefore probably not a bugle boy. 
I'll set my 2c it's a Russian relabeled.


----------



## Amish

Well after doing more research and getting some responses here and over at another site (audio Asylum) I am starting to think that this tube is actually a Amperex 6992 that was labled as a 6dj8 bugle boy. This seems like I'm reaching but it would explain the gold pins. Internally this tube looks exactly like a Amperex 6dj8 or 6992.
  
 One thing I did find is the number 2 stamped into the glass on the bottom of the tub in the gap between the two pins that are further apart. Not sure what that means.
  
 I'm going to bring the tube to work tomorrow morning and use one of our industrial magnifying glass units to see if I can see any sort of date code that has worn off.
  
 The seller seems to think that any audiophile would know this tube is legit and rare. I can't argue that but so far those of you here and at the other site seem pretty stumped and I bet a few of you are audiophile's lol.
  
 I'll keep you posted if I discover anything new. I should say that i have decided to keep the tube though. It's sounds like a fantastic amperex tube. Sounds just like my other bugle boys but cleaner and with less gain. So ultimately it is a keeper. I just hate not knowing and I also hate thinking I might have been taken advantage of.
  
 I'll keep digging though.


----------



## Amish

So I just put this tube under our Vision Mantis Stereo Microscope.
  
 There is absolutely no date code on this tube in the form of etching. Maybe one was stamped on and then worn off but nothing was etched into the glass. Now I find it funny that if there was a date code on the glass at one time how it wore off yet the bugle boy logo and amperex/made in holland lettering has not. Under the microscope I can clearly tell the logo and lettering is a sort of paint but whatever it is it is strong. My finger nail cannot get any of that paint off. I'd have to use a metal pick or something (which I'm not willing to do). If this paint is so strong why was the date code not stamped with the same material?
  
  
 So at this point I think this is a Siemens or Philips 6992 due to the number (in the glass) at the bottom of the tube. But the search for info continues


----------



## stupidmop

Even siemens would have a stamp. It's code would be a hashtag with only one vertical line intead of two. It honestly looks chinese to me but that's FWIW of course. The paint is a dead giveaway that it was manufactured recently at least, as Johan-71 said. I have 3 siemens 6922s and not one of them has a number on the bottom. One isn't etched, it's stamped on the getter support. But the other two have etched codes just like all amperex/siemens/mullard tubes. But if you like the sound that's all that matters.


----------



## Amish

This tube without a doubt is vintage. If you look at the internals this thing is legit. I have no doubt at this point that the tube was stamped with the bugle boy logo to fill an order but was another compatible tube of that time period. there is no way it is a Chinese tube or Russian tube. I highly doubt it is fake at this point. Just a re-badge. I've been talking to a guy who knows his tubes (local to me) and he feels that this is a 100% vintage amperex tube made by Philips. I can't prove it but this is without a doubt amperex sounding. I respect his knowledge too. I actually took the tube to him after work today. He still has it actually. He pointed out at the side of the tube you can see where there are tiny dots of ink where the lettering has been worn off. He also told me that he has seen vintage tubes where the lettering was hard to come off.
  
 I don't know but he seems to.


----------



## Amish

On a side note the Telefunken 12AT7 is one amazing sounding tube with the Ember. If you have not had a chance to listen to one I highly suggest you do. I've been running a Siemens tube for over a week and just popped in my Telefunken and it immediately put a smile on my face. Damn this is a sweet sweet sounding tube.


----------



## connieflyer

Which Telefunken 12at7 do you have?  I have looked at some on Brent Jesses website and may get one of his I have a cv4024 Mullard from him that is my favorite now.


----------



## Amish

connieflyer said:


> Which Telefunken 12at7 do you have?  I have looked at some on Brent Jesses website and may get one of his I have a cv4024 Mullard from him that is my favorite now.


 
  
 It's a October 1960 ECC81 made in Berlin, Germany, winged grey plates, O- getter.
  
 Out of all my tubes this is by far the best to my ears. I like it so much I'm looking to buy a few more just to have on hand. I'd like to try a Telefunken12AX7 and 12AU7.


----------



## connieflyer

Could you tell me where you bought this tube.  I was looking at the Telefunken's on Brent Jesse's site and wondered if one of the ones he had is the same as your's is all.


----------



## stupidmop

Deleted


----------



## manizkrishnan

Hello,
  
I have Tung Sol 12AX7/ECC83   and 12AT7/ECC81 preamp tubes Can i use them in Ember? These are from my Jolida 302B Amplifier
I have referred the manual. I just want to double check.
 
Thanks in advance


----------



## connieflyer

Yes, I have a couple of 12ax7,12au7,12at7 and they all work fine.


----------



## manizkrishnan

Thanks. I really liked Tung Sol 12AX7/ECC83. _I_t is far better than stock tube.


----------



## connieflyer

I agree.  My favorite tube right now is a CV4024/12at7 Mullard from Brent Jesse.  It is the best sounding so far.


----------



## manizkrishnan

I too have  Mullard CV4024 / 12AT7 Vintage New Old Stoc Platinum Grade. I will try today. Does 6J1P-EV tubes work with Ember?


----------



## musicman2006

I've seen a few people mention Siemens but has anyone tried the Siemens 6AQ8 / ECC85 ?  I swapped it in after listening to the RCA clear top 12au7 and to me, that Siemens has all the clarity (maybe more) of the clear top but with a more holographic soundstage.


----------



## stupidmop

I absolutely love my Siemens ecc85. It is a very dynamic and musical tube. I know it's totally superficial but I like the way the filaments glow through the holes in the plates  Couldn't agree more with your impressions


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Question for the Ember owners here. Had anyone tried their Ember (or Polaris) with an HE6?


----------



## smitty1110

Most of the people that have HE-6's tend to go for shinier amps than this. That being said, the HE-500 sounds great (depending on the music and tube pairing), and the difference between tubes is quite apparent. You might want to go ask around in the summit-fi section, somebody over there with more disposable income than me might be able to answer your question.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I ask because the HE6 can be had for $666 with an open box display model (not just one unit too).


----------



## smitty1110

Damn, that's an even better deal than the Fostex deal I just got.


----------



## Amish

I went there to buy the HE6 but that deal was long gone. I looked everywhere.
  
 For the best i figure as I didn't even want them. but at that price I could have turned around and made a few bucks on them. (and test them out).
  
  
  
 To date my newest Telefunken 12AT7 1959 is by far the best tube I've rolled into the Ember. Lush!


----------



## smitty1110

amish said:


> I went there to buy the HE6 but that deal was long gone. I looked everywhere.
> 
> For the best i figure as I didn't even want them. but at that price I could have turned around and made a few bucks on them. (and test them out).
> 
> ...


 
 Nice to know that's a good tube, I'm thinking of getting one. How's the sound signature on it and what headphones are you using?
  


soundsgoodtome said:


> Uh oh, forbidden head-fi word! But yes audio advisor is blowing them out the door, the new model must be making it's way to production!


 
 Oops... :\


----------



## musicman2006

soundsgoodtome said:


> Question for the Ember owners here. Had anyone tried their Ember (or Polaris) with an HE6?


 
 The Ember is very nice with he HE6 ! If you get a good deal on an HE6 like I did, the Ember is the first stepping stone to hearing what those headphones can do!  Plus if you get a larger amp, you can still use it as a preamp like I do to keep that magical tube sound  
  
 When I compare directly with the Emotiva XPA-200 which is a 150 watt amp in 8 ohms, while still using the Ember as its pre, the extra power gives the HE6 a slightly bigger soundstage and punch.
 I got the XPA-200 for the same price as the Ember, so Im honestly indifferent about the marginal improvement with the added power, though it is nice to have.


----------



## CrownMan

Posted this in another thread for the PS and PS2 tube rolling but have the Ember. I'd like to pop into this thread and give you my top 2 tubes for the Project Ember. The Telefunkun 1962 12AT7 and the Amperex Feb 1958 D or Square Getter (don't know the difference between the 2). 2nd place goes to the TFK 1968 E88CC from Upscale and a 1965 Amperex BB small O getter. However, The Siemens and Halske E88CC Grey Shield has the best midrange though. Headphones I use the most are Senns HD600 and HIFIMan He-500s. IMHO only.


----------



## smitty1110

The trend in this thread seems to be that NOS Amperex and Telefunken ar ethe way to go if you can afford them. Most other tubes seem to be situational.


----------



## Amish

I will agree with that. Telefunken and Amperex are by far the best sounding tubes I've tied. I own a nice handful of different brand tubes. all of them but two are vintage.


----------



## manbear

I just received two Amperex tubes from Ebay. Here are some brief impressions with my HE-400. 

 Amperex 6DJ8 Orange Globe: Very nice. Smooth highs, spacious with a good sense of air, a little warm overall but not much. Bass is slightly soft and extension could be better, but still plenty satisfying. Excellent detail but a relaxed presentation overall. 

 Amperex 12AU7 Holland (Hewlet Packard label, 1969): Not sure if I like this one better or the Orange Globe. It is similar but more relaxed, bigger and more diffuse soundstage. Highs are a little smoother, bass is a tiny bit softer and warmer. Soundstage seems to be the biggest difference. 

 I'm interested in trying a Bugle Boy next (maybe 12AT7 just for something different, though I do prefer lower gain so far). Interested in Telefunken too but they are really pricey.

 I will add impressions on my other tubes as I get the chance.

 EDIT:

 Electro-Harmonix 6922EH Russia: Decent all-around tube. Nothing amazing, but no major flaws either. On the smooth side with good bass extension. This was my favorite before I got the Amperexes, mostly because I found the others too fatiguing long-term.

 Tung-Sol 12AX7 Russia: V-shaped sound. Bass is excellent with the most extension and impact of any of my tubes so far, but the highs are too much for me with the HE-400. 

 Voskhod 12AX7VKA: Good tube. Balanced sound overall, but on the aggressive side. Maybe a hair bright. Vivid and clear. Soundstage is more upfront. A little fatiguing though.


----------



## smitty1110

manbear said:


> Interested in Telefunken too but they are really pricey.


 
 NOS Telefunken tubes are the holy grail for a lot of amps, the cheapest I've ever seen is $50 for a 12ax7. They do make new stock, but not for all of their old models, and they're still not cheap - http://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.com/products/tubes/


----------



## manbear

smitty1110 said:


> NOS Telefunken tubes are the holy grail for a lot of amps, the cheapest I've ever seen is $50 for a 12ax7. They do make new stock, but not for all of their old models, and they're still not cheap - http://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.com/products/tubes/


 


 You know, I've been hearing that they are on the bright side so I'll pass for now. These Amperexes have my HE-400s sounding the best I've heard them, very spacious and un-fatiguing. I'm just going to work on finding some Bugle Boys for now.


----------



## smitty1110

There's been a lot of positive stuff about amperex in this thread, I need to track down where mine went and compare it to my tesla, especially now that I just got my TH-900's today. Gotta re-tweak stuff to get everything perfect for the new sound signature...


----------



## manbear

How do you like those Teslas? 

 I remember using some in my Little Dot MK3 (I forgot which kind of tubes it uses but I don't think they are the same as the Ember). It was an interesting sound, soft bass but also dry in the mids and treble.


----------



## ericr

manbear said:


> How do you like those Teslas?
> 
> 
> I remember using some in my Little Dot MK3 (I forgot which kind of tubes it uses but I don't think they are the same as the Ember). It was an interesting sound, soft bass but also dry in the mids and treble.




How does the Ember compare to the Little Dot?


----------



## manbear

ericr said:


> How does the Ember compare to the Little Dot?




The Ember is much better IMO. Larger soundstage, tighter and more controlled bass, just cleaner and more open overall. The Little Dot has more of a stereotypical thick tube sound. The Ember also has a lot more power.


----------



## smitty1110

manbear said:


> How do you like those Teslas?


 
 It's my go-to tube for jazz, hands down. I also like it with classical, because when I sit down to listen to classical, that means I'm listening to an entire symphony, and entire opera, etc. Rolling off the treble a bit keeps stuff from being too fatiguing. For other types of music I use other tubes, though I'm going to be going through my small collection again to reevaluate the tubes for how they pair with my TH-900's which finally arrived yesterday. This is going to be busy weekend.


----------



## manbear

Cool. I like a little roll off in the treble too. I'll keep on eye out for some deals.


----------



## smitty1110

Yeah, that tube is going to be really useful if I ever get my hands on some PS-1000i's, the main problem that they have is that the highs can be a bit out of control with a lot of amps.


----------



## connieflyer

Has anyone tried these cv4033's yet?  http://www.tubemonger.com/Brimar_CV4033_NOS_1960_62_Prem_CV4024_STC_Eng_FAC_p/2042m.htm.  Going to order one next week and see, at this price should be a winner.


----------



## J&J

New and different ??? I bought some Russian 6N5P tubes I just came across them surfing ebay 2x triodes. Similar values to 6FG7 .
 They are really nice tubey sounding tubes meaning sweet and fat not unlike the 12BH7 another favorite of mine. My understanding is the gain is like the12AU7s


----------



## manbear

j&j said:


> New and different ??? I bought some Russian 6N5P tubes I just came across them surfing ebay 2x triodes. Similar values to 6FG7 .
> They are really nice tubey sounding tubes meaning sweet and fat not unlike the 12BH7 another favorite of mine. My understanding is the gain is like the12AU7s


 


 Cool. Do you need the supercharger to make them work?


----------



## J&J

I have the sc but really don't know depends on current needed for filament. Mentioned them to Jeremy and he was not familiar with them. If similar to  6n6p the amp would need sc


----------



## J&J

Jeremy just checked and a 6n5p requires a SC for higher heater current


----------



## richard51

I had try a bugle boy 12au7 ecc82... Wow.... better than the amperex globe orange and better than the 12bh7a...2 very good tubes...Bugle boy 12au7 is the holy grail for me ...The sound is more 3d and has more body than the orange globe....


----------



## Stillhart

Hi all,
  
 I just picked up a used Ember (with SC) that came with 4 tubes.  I got it to use with the HE-4, but I also just grabbed an HD650 on super sale just to hear it.
  
 Well tried all the tubes I had with the HE-4 and none of them really impressed me.  I kept my favorite one in and tried the HD650 (which didn't impress me from the SS amp) and holy cow!!  HD650 with Amperex 6DJ8 is really something!  I'm starting to get an inkling of what people mean when they talk about synergy in your components.
  
 Anyways, I'm still looking for a good tube to go with my HE-4.  I'm looking for something that will tame the highs a bit without really ruining the planar bass.  So far, I haven't found that sound.  Can anyone maybe suggest something, preferably in a sane price range?  Someone suggested a Philips Miniwatt, which turned out to be a $200+ tube.  :-/
  
 Oh, for the record, the tubes I tried were the Amperex 6DJ8, generic 6H1n (which is a P in Russian, I guess), generic 6N6P, RCA 12BH7A.
  
 I'm hoping that the SC will give me access to some nice tubes that are maybe less in demand, and therefore cheaper.
  
 Thx!
  
 EDIT - Read the last 6 pages of this thread and my head is spinning.


----------



## ericr

Try this:

http://www.tubemaze.info/westinghouse-12au7-carbon-plates/

You get them reasonably on eBay. Just make sure you follow the tips he gives on how to identify the original tubes (before they were farmed out to RCA). FWIW, Mine are labeled Conn.

They are towards the warm side, have excellent bass, and yet still deliver good detail in the mids and highs. They are lower gain tubes so high gain mode on the Ember may be in order.

My best tube purchase out of 30-35. I would love it if someone else tried these out to verify (or not) my impression!


----------



## connieflyer

I bought one from him last year and like it quite well.  Tried lots of 12au7's and while they sound very good with the Ember, so far the ones I like the best are the bugleboy 12ax7's.  I have a pair of the Conn's as well and did not care for them as much as the westinghouse.  Also tried the 12bh7's,12av7, 6dj8,6gu7, 7dj8,E80cc,6922,telefunken 12at7,mullard 12ax7, tungsol 12ax7 5751(second best), amperex, bugle boy6dj8,ECC00 6h6n,sylvania 12axwa, slvania 6dj8 black,cv4024 Mullard, ECC83 S,12au7 westinghouse, but as of now the BB12ax7, are at the top of my list.  Don't use most of these anymore, probably1/3 will rotate in, so I better put some back on the sale list.  I am using the Sennheiser HD650, running thru and Emotiva XDR-2 for dac.


----------



## Stillhart

ericr said:


> Try this:
> 
> http://www.tubemaze.info/westinghouse-12au7-carbon-plates/
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks, I read the page and the hit up ebay and then scratched my head bewildered as I realized that I had no idea how to tell what was real or fake.  I don't understand what 3/4 of the words on that page mean, and I spent hours reading up on tube rolling.  I'm going ot have to do more research...


----------



## fortunate son (Mar 23, 2022)

I've tried most of the tubes *connieflyer* listed.

You can put lipstick on a pig but . . .


----------



## J&J

In general I've prefered the Amp BB to OG in both 6 and 12V The BB are my default 6dj8 in Lyr


----------



## Amish

BB tubes are among my favs as well. 12AT and 12AX but my favorite tubes to date are: 1959 Telefunken 12AT7 &
 1960 Telefunken 12AT7 Tektronix
  
 These two tubes sound dreamy to me.


----------



## ericr

stillhart said:


> Thanks, I read the page and the hit up ebay and then scratched my head bewildered as I realized that I had no idea how to tell what was real or fake.  I don't understand what 3/4 of the words on that page mean, and I spent hours reading up on tube rolling.  I'm going ot have to do more research...




Sorry to be so slow in getting back with you. Here are a few listings for these from the eBay seller I bought mine from:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_ssn=spin4cards&_armrs=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313&_nkw=Westinghouse+12AU7A&_sacat=0

I bought the Silver grade and they work great. I don't fully understand his gradings, but he has dropped the price on the Gold grade and for just a couple dollars more I would buy those now.


----------



## Stillhart

ericr said:


> Sorry to be so slow in getting back with you. Here are a few listings for these from the eBay seller I bought mine from:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_ssn=spin4cards&_armrs=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313&_nkw=Westinghouse+12AU7A&_sacat=0
> 
> I bought the Silver grade and they work great. I don't fully understand his gradings, but he has dropped the price on the Gold grade and for just a couple dollars more I would buy those now.


 
 Thanks!  From the description, it sounds like the grading is only indicating how well the tube pairs match eachother.  Since I'm just going to be using one at a time in the Ember, I think I should be fine with a silver grade.
  
 I just got a new headphone that's coming in tomorrow.  I'm going to wait and see how that pairs with the Ember before deciding whether to buy new tubes or not.  But these are going to be first on my list, I think.


----------



## dpump

ericr said:


> Sorry to be so slow in getting back with you. Here are a few listings for these from the eBay seller I bought mine from:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_ssn=spin4cards&_armrs=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313&_nkw=Westinghouse+12AU7A&_sacat=0
> 
> I bought the Silver grade and they work great. I don't fully understand his gradings, but he has dropped the price on the Gold grade and for just a couple dollars more I would buy those now.


 

 Stillhart,
  
 Look at the pictures of the tubes on eBay. Look at the 4th picture and notice that the 12AU7 writing has a rectangle with cut corners around it. Whenever you see this rectangle around the tube number it means the tube was manufactured by RCA. Now look at the last picture and you can see the 12AU7 does not have a rectangle around it and you can see one dot below the 12AU7. This is the tube that was made by Westinghouse and is the one that the reviews say is the best one. If you decide to buy from this seller email him to see if any of his tubes have the dots above and below the 12AU7. I purchased some of these tubes from him before I knew the difference and ended up with 3 that have the dots, the rest are the RCA's.
  
  
 Other than the dots around the 12AU7 and the vertical numbers below the 12AU7, the two types of tubes appear to be identical, and the RCA's are still a good tube and a good buy at his prices. I think the Westinghouse sounds a little better, but it could be because I wanted it to!


----------



## Stillhart

Thanks, that's super helpful!


----------



## eris0xff

For Christmas we received a new Project Ember for our AKG 712s, so I purchased a couple NOS tubes just to start things rolling.  Here are my thoughts on the tubes:
  
 First the AKG 712 while an extremely revealing monitoring headphone doesn't really show it excellent character until driven by a good headphone amp.  An earlier review with the AKG-712 and Ember had great things to say about it's use with the the Mazda 5751 and the Russian 12ax7vka.
  
 I did have a decent budget for tubes, but I didn't want to spend a fortune before I heard some great less expensive models.
  
 1. For a baseline, I listened to the included 12au7 tube.   It had the expected warmer tube sound compared to it being directly driven by the Audioquest Dragonfly 1.2 I was using for a DAC.  I gave it an hour break-in just to make sure there weren't any large unexpected changes.  Otherwise it was just - ok -.
  
 2. My next test tube was intended to be a noticeable jump upwards, so I plugged in a $70 Sylvania 5751 Gold Brand JAN greyplate, triple-mica.  It's essentially the little brother to the well known blackplate Gold Brand.  Holy cow.  That was a noticeable upgrade.  A highly detailed and transparent tube.  Quite capable, but since the AKG is already a bit forward and analytical the combination created something like the ultimate detail monitoring headphone.  I was hearing micro-details in various mixes like level adjustments and noise-gaiting that the original audio engineers had obviously either ignored or thought no one else would notice.  If I was trying to monitor the noise and errors in a mix this would be the combination.   Since the Sylvania 5751s are a little forward anyway, the combination delivers micro details into your lap.  Otherwise a great tube, just not the right match for laid back Jazz or Classical listening.  Don't even think about listening to sub-standard pop recordings unless you get paid for it.
  
 3. On a lark I also ordered a $50 Raytheon 12AX7 blackplate labeled as "Baldwin" since it was used as a hand-selected service replacement for Baldwin organs back in the day.  I didn't really expect much.   As soon as I plugged it in and let it warm up a bit I ran it through my standard reference recordings.  Wow.  This tube is both wide band with an ever-so-slightly sweet upper range, liquid midrange and punchy bass.  As someone has already said of these, they sound like liquid glass.  I usually start my reference CDs with Diana Krall's "Love Scenes" just because it's such an awesome recording and Diana's voice is something to behold when properly recorded.  Other selections on the CD test rhythm and punch very well.  Diana is miked closely and micro dynamics like the sound of her lips opening before she sings, well, let's just say it's an intimate recording.  This little $50 nails much of the recording precisely.  The holography is excellent and less forward so it adjusts somewhat for the AKGs forward stance.  Overall an excellent tube for $50.
  
 The Dragonfly / Ember / Raytheon 12AX7 black plate combination is almost like listening to a Dunlavy SC-1 monitoring speaker on your head -- perhaps a maggie or entry-level martin logan.  Very nice.   
  
 Now to see if I can get the last 1/2 of 1% by upgrading to an Amperex Orange Globe or Mullard long plate.


----------



## manbear

Interesting. I just ordered a Baldwin 12AU7 black plate for $8. Looking forward to trying it out.


----------



## eris0xff

manbear: i've not listened to the 12au7 variation, but many reviewers say the 712s really benefit from the extra headroom provided by the 12ax7s.  ymmv of course based on your headphones.


----------



## manbear

eris0xff said:


> manbear: i've not listened to the 12au7 variation, but many reviewers say the 712s really benefit from the extra headroom provided by the 12ax7s.  ymmv of course based on your headphones.


 


 I was mostly curious about Baldwin because I haven't heard of the brand. I'm a skeptical tube roller, if there is such a thing, so I bought the 12AU7 because it was cheap. My favorite tubes so far are 6DJ8's so headroom is not an issue. Honestly, I have a hard time getting the volume knob past the channel imbalance region using 12V tubes, without reducing the volume digitally. And I'm using "hard to drive" orthos.


----------



## eris0xff

manbear said:


> I was mostly curious about Baldwin because I haven't heard of the brand. I'm a skeptical tube roller, if there is such a thing, so I bought the 12AU7 because it was cheap. My favorite tubes so far are 6DJ8's so headroom is not an issue. Honestly, I have a hard time getting the volume knob past the channel imbalance region using 12V tubes, without reducing the volume digitally. And I'm using "hard to drive" orthos.


 

 The Baldwins are just OEM Raytheons, but handpicked for replacement of organ tubes in Baldwin organs.
  
 If you're concerned about channel imbalance, have you tried the 5751s? They're 12v and there are a number of excellent 5751s which would be internally matched and have lower gain so you usually won't run into the same issues.
  
 You didn't mention which cans you're listening to, so I can't recommend anything further.


----------



## SuperU

j&j said:


> In general I've prefered the Amp BB to OG in both 6 and 12V The BB are my default 6dj8 in Lyr


 
 Hey JJ - since you have both the Lyr and the Ember, can you say a little about them? Which do you prefer? I was almost ready to get a Lyr 2, then found the Ember. Leaning a lot toward the Ember now. Just curious about your thoughts. I have a Asgard 2. Its nice but want to try a tube amp with my Mad Dog Pro headphones.


----------



## bavinck

I have a Project Starlight and have recently tried 6dj8 Bugle Boys. Very full 3d soundstage, beautiful mids and bass. This is exactly what my HD600s wanted! I would like to buy more of these, anyone have experience with tubedepot.com?


----------



## Amish

I have bought from them. No complaints here.


----------



## bavinck

Most tubes I am interested in say back ordered. If I order one of them does that mean they are waiting for one to be manufactured or they will look for a used one?


----------



## nykobing

bavinck said:


> Most tubes I am interested in say back ordered. If I order one of them does that mean they are waiting for one to be manufactured or they will look for a used one?


 
 They haven't made Bugle Boys since 1964 or 1965. Try to find a US or Holland Amperex 6922, they are often 20-25 bucks on ebay if you wait for one, the earlier the better (pre-65 or so), you will put back that BB 6dj8 in the box and never pull it out again. If you really love the 6dj8, don't be scared of buying one on ebay, paypal will guarantee it works, you can get your twenty bucks back and there are millions of them around.


----------



## BillsonChang007

Some tubes up for sale in case anyone interested: 
 RCA 12AU7A
 RCA 6AU7
 2x Russian 6N2P-EB
  
 see signature for info xD
  
 Billson


----------



## Solrighal

I've only just gotten a demo unit of the Ember for a trial period and I've only just discovered this thread. I'll read through it from the start but is there a valve that's considered particularly good with the HD 650? I only have the stock valve & I'm wanting to know what the differences might be.
  
 Thank you.


----------



## bavinck

Big fan of the 6dj8 here.


----------



## Stillhart

solrighal said:


> I've only just gotten a demo unit of the Ember for a trial period and I've only just discovered this thread. I'll read through it from the start but is there a valve that's considered particularly good with the HD 650? I only have the stock valve & I'm wanting to know what the differences might be.
> 
> Thank you.


 
  
 I have 4 that came with mine and I liked the Aperex 6DJ8 the best.  I really does wonderful things to the HD650.  <3


----------



## Solrighal

Thanks Stillhart. It's now on my list.


----------



## BillsonChang007

+1 for the Amperex 6DJ8! I am personally using it myself too!


----------



## caracara08

billsonchang007 said:


> +1 for the Amperex 6DJ8! I am personally using it myself too!


 
  
 Giving these a try. Purchased a pair but will probably sell one here as I only need the one.


----------



## manbear

I like my Amperex 6DJ8 orange globe, though my Hewlett Packard 12AU7 white label (Amperex OEM) improves on the same strengths. Very relaxed, musical, and holographic but also diffuse and loose in the bass. The 12AU7 is softer and smoother while the 6DJ8 is more detailed and closer to neutral (and IMO it loses the special something in the 12AU7 that makes it my default tube).


----------



## Solrighal

Amperex 6DJ8 it is then. Thanks guys.


----------



## bavinck

Is there only one Amperex 6dj8? I love mine, and have noticed many more expensive ones for sale. What is the difference? I did not pay a whole lot for mime.


----------



## Stillhart

The two big expensive ones that I know of are the "Bugle Boy" and the "Orange Globe".  The one I have is a regular old Amperex Holland that probably didn't cost much.  Supposedly those expensive ones are totally worth it, but I'm not willing to drop the cash on the experiment.
  
 I'm also curious to try the ones (not Amperex) discussed here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/702826/project-ember-tube-rolling/225#post_11074347
  
 and available for purchase here:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/702826/project-ember-tube-rolling/225#post_11154233


----------



## BillsonChang007

stillhart said:


> The two big expensive ones that I know of are the "Bugle Boy" and the "Orange Globe".  The one I have is a regular old Amperex Holland that probably didn't cost much.  Supposedly those expensive ones are totally worth it, but I'm not willing to drop the cash on the experiment.
> 
> I'm also curious to try the ones (not Amperex) discussed here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/702826/project-ember-tube-rolling/225#post_11074347
> 
> and available for purchase here:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/702826/project-ember-tube-rolling/225#post_11154233


 
 Got the Orange Globe and IMO, if you can find it within your budget, I'd say go for it already! It's a super good tube!


----------



## bavinck

I've got a Bugle boy and it is awesome.


----------



## richard51

with my bugle boy i dont buy other tubes anymore.... i have 5 bugle boy 12au7 ecc82... with them the Ember is not very hot... and the sound is for my ears perfect....


----------



## manbear

I've been enjoying my Tung Sol 12AX7 lately. It's got the best bass of all my tubes, more of a robust "solid state" kind of sound. Anyone have suggestions for similar tubes to try? I already have some Voskhod tubes BTW.


----------



## Amish

I will comment again. Bugle Boy 12AX7. That is the tube to own. I have several. They rock. FR is awesome.
  
 If you like the BB 6DJ8 then you will love the 12AX7 of that tube.


----------



## connieflyer

d


----------



## Solrighal

connieflyer said:


> This page of tube reviews was done by a very knowledgeable man a few years ago, and having some of the tubes he reviews I have to agree....http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#12AX7.   I have several of the 12ax7's and 6dj8's  and find, that I have finally settled on Amperex 12at7 buble boys. I find these are the more accurate of the the tube I use.  Will be selling off all the others.


 
  
 Thanks for that link mate. That's my bed-time reading sorted.


----------



## caracara08

Just threw in my Amperex BB 6DJ8 that arrived today... mmmm so nice.  Making my HD700s sing tonight!


----------



## meraias

hmm, I've been looking up ebay and I have been overwhelmed with Amperex 6dj8 Bugle Boys choices.
 whats a good website to buy these and how do I tell apart which Bungle Boys are the good boys?


----------



## richard51

i think now that the 6ns7 tube is the end of tube rolling.......no comparison with any of my other tubes......


----------



## connieflyer

I think I will have to agree with you, these 6Sn7 tubes are really alot better than the 9pin tubes.  Looks like I may have to sell of the rest of my 9 pin tubes. I bought an extra adapter from Jeremy, in case they don't stock them in the future.  Easier for tube rolling to leave the adapter on and pull both out at once.  After cutting the larger hole for the 6SN7 tube the Ember looks even better than before.


----------



## bavinck

What do you guys like about the 6sn7 compared to a 6dj8,12au7, etc? Thinking of ordering an adaptor and getting a tube as well.


----------



## richard51

how have you made this hole  in the Ember cover ?


----------



## Solrighal

richard51 said:


> how have you made this hole  in the Ember cover ?


 
  
 +1


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


> I think I will have to agree with you, these 6Sn7 tubes are really alot better than the 9pin tubes.  Looks like I may have to sell of the rest of my 9 pin tubes. I bought an extra adapter from Jeremy, in case they don't stock them in the future.  Easier for tube rolling to leave the adapter on and pull both out at once.  After cutting the larger hole for the 6SN7 tube the Ember looks even better than before.


 

 how have you drill the hole? which tools?


----------



## richard51

bavinck said:


> What do you guys like about the 6sn7 compared to a 6dj8,12au7, etc? Thinking of ordering an adaptor and getting a tube as well.


 

 i had purchase the bugle boy ecc82 12au7....it was my best sounding tube so far......till i bought
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the  adapter and the 6ns7 sylvania... Wow.... all aspect of sound was better more 3d and realistic....i hate tube rolling now....and i am in love with my new amp....the new Ember is way better than the old with this tube....i had tried 8 different tubes and i had bought 20 tubes in all...no one equal the sylvania 6ns7.... its big money spend..... but i have now an amp the new Ember ...i dont regret...No review of this amp in the past can do justice to this amp because if you had listened it with other tube you dont have listen the true potential of the Ember....My greatest buy in audio...


----------



## connieflyer

I picked up an inexpensive hole saw I believe it was a 34 mm, and used my electric hand drill,centered it over the existing hole and just gently let the saw cut through. Nice smooth hole, Ember looks great this way. After using the 6SN7 tubes for awhile now, perhaps they should have designed it around this tube, and made an adapter for the 9 pin tubes instead.  Hindsight, great stuff.  At any  rate I am a happy camper now more than before, with the use of the 6SN7 tube family.


----------



## caracara08

forgive me if picturse have been posted with the 6SN7 mod but think someone can snap a couple of their ember? Also, do we know which adapter is needed or where to pick one up?  I am happy with my tube in there but rolling/modding is always fun if it can be done without much risk.


----------



## ericr

THE 6SN7 adapter comes from Garage1217. There are other 9 to 8 pin adapters available on eBay and elsewhere but they are not compatible with the Ember (for a reason I don't recall). Jeremy has custom designed this one specifically for use in the Ember et al. It's oozes G1217 quality, btw.


----------



## ericr

Can you guys be more specific as to which 6SN7 tubes you are liking? Not just brand as most brands released 6SN7s of various construction.


----------



## caracara08

ericr said:


> Can you guys be more specific as to which 6SN7 tubes you are liking? Not just brand as most brands released 6SN7s of various construction.


 
 +1 I am going to give this a go and buy the adapter as well!


----------



## No_One411

You just need to run the Ember topless with the adapter right? I think that's the biggest limitation with the 12AU7 to 6SN7 adapters. 
  
 Might be better for heat tbh...


----------



## caracara08

placed my order for the adapter.  I hope to be able to keep the top on and mod it but would need to buy the drill attachment.  Id also be scared to crack it.


----------



## Johan-71

+1 just placed my order and bought a Sylvania 6sn7wgt from Germany. 
Any tips on others brands and types?


----------



## Solrighal

johan-71 said:


> +1 just placed my order and bought a Sylvania 6sn7wgt from Germany.
> Any tips on others brands and types?


 
  
  
 There's quite a lot of talk of those valves to be found here...
  
 http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember?page=59


----------



## connieflyer




----------



## No_One411

connieflyer said:


>


 
  
 Nice! If you add the supercharger option, you may even be able to run CV-181s!


----------



## connieflyer

I have a few RCA, Sylvania,and Electro-Harmonix, the last one is a brand new tube, and while it is not a bad tube, the NOS, even the ones that are used are much better,  here is a page which should help you understand some of the differences......http://www.audiotubes.com/6sn7.htm, his prices are higher but he also has some very rare tubes.  I use it more for seeing the difference between manufactures. Check this thread also on Head-Fi........http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread.....this is a very good supplier on Ebay....http://stores.ebay.com/Tube-Maze/6SN7-6SL7-ECC32-/_i.html?_fsub=3435028013&_sop=2&rt=nc.....good information here also, scroll down to see more.....http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/6SN7/6SN7.htm#7N7...


----------



## connieflyer

I have the supercharger option as well,  here is a quote from Solderdude on Project Ember diy audio...That's correct but at the same time a dangerous situation.

 It has nothing to do with the current capabilities but with the internal heater arrangement inside the tubes.
 All 9 pin 12V tubes have centertaps (pin 9) on their heater.
 On some 6V tubes pin 9 is used to connect a screen between the 2 tube halves.
 All these tubes (6V AND 12V) can thus be fed by 6V on each heater 'side'.
 Ember makes use of this heater arrangement with the auto heater select.

 Thus in all the other G1217 amps the actual heater voltage is 6V even for the 12V tubes thanks to pin 9 and nifty thinking by the designers in those days.
 For this reason you can faff around with the heater selection and can afford to make mistakes by having a 6V tube set to 12V and vice versa.
 The amp won't work properly and you will get a tube that is heated only on one side or doesn't heat enough but it will never be harmful.

 Now here's the thing with 8 pin tubes... there is NO 9th pin and thus the actual heaters in the 6V tube need 6V (no problem there) but the 12V tubes do NOT have the centretap and thus need 12V which the other amps can NOT supply.
 Because the supercharger's output voltage can be 'set' using external resistors a 12V output can be made.
 In that case the heater than gets a real 12V and not 6V.

 BUT..... when left in that position and a 6V tube (8pin or 9 pin) is inserted you can probably trash that tube.
 A VERY DANGEROUS jumper !

 For this reason the Solstice has 2 6V-12V jumpers.
 One is easy accesible from the top and is similar to the other G1217 amps thus safe to use.
 Should you want to use 12SN7 tubes you will have to take the top cover off and set a small jumper BUT you get no warning a high voltage will be there.

 The danger lies in the fact that these amps are so easy to roll 6 and 12V tubes that one forgets about this dangerous jumper.

 Should you want a Solstice (will make a new thread for it) to NOT have this dangerous option you can have the 12V option removed OR even changed to 7V so you can use 300mA tubes (like the PCC or 7 series) at the proper voltage.

 Read more: http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember?page=62#ixzz3Sz881CDc​  ​ http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember?page=57  Solderdude is one of the designers very helpful if you have questions.​  ​  ​


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


>


 

  Magnificent vista! what is your tool to drill the cover?


----------



## connieflyer

I used a hole saw like this one and a hand held electric drill.  Nothing special, about $13.00 is all.  I drilled it out using a piece of wood underneath the plastic so the drill would act as a pilot to keep the saw from skewing around.  Just make sure it is centered on the hole in the plastic, and make sure the plastic is held in place firmly so it does not move around.  Takes only minutes to do.  Good luck.  the one I bought was 35mm, it was a Bi-Metal saw, as that cuts cleanly through the plastic without melting it.


----------



## connieflyer

Another really good bit of information on the 6SN7 tubes here.......http://www.effectrode.com/signal-tubes/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/  lots of very useful information to use before buying tubes.


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


> I used a hole saw like this one and a hand held electric drill.  Nothing special, about $13.00 is all.  I drilled it out using a piece of wood underneath the plastic so the drill would act as a pilot to keep the saw from skewing around.  Just make sure it is centered on the hole in the plastic, and make sure the plastic is held in place firmly so it does not move around.  Takes only minutes to do.  Good luck.  the one I bought was 35mm, it was a Bi-Metal saw, as that cuts cleanly through the plastic without melting it.


 

 thank you very much.... I understand....best regards


----------



## connieflyer

You are most welcome.


----------



## RedBull

Interesting connieflyer. 
Could you compare the sound of 6sn7 to 6dj8?
I am interested as well. I read that 6sn7 treble is a bit roll off? Is that true? And what headphone do you pair wirh 6sn7?

Thank you.


----------



## connieflyer

I had half a dozen 6dj8's of varying manufactures and quality, and really liked them, over time, I came to the the 12ax7's and the 12at7 Amperex bugle boys and that was the top of the mark for me, until I tried the 6SN7's.  I have 3 rca smoked glass, a couple vt231's and a couple of Sylvania's, also a tung-sol and the last one was a new electro-harmonix from Russia.  The EH was very bright and airy, but lacked bass, the rca's were the best for bass, and the tung-sol was very accurate all around, the VT231 was a very good tube.  As far as treble roll off I have not seen it accept the way the tubes strong points are arrayed.  The 1940's VT231 and the 1948 rca's are really nice.  I will probably stay with the 6SN7's now,  I tried going back to the 12at7's which were my favorites before the 6SN7's, but after an hour, I had to go back to the 6Sn7's.  Wider sound stage, a more 3-D like sound.  Encompassing would be a good description.  I am using Senn HD650's, one pair a month old and one pair a little over two years old.  They both sound fantastic.  The older one is more "burned-in" if you subscrbe to that.  From the Effectrode webpage.......
With the revival of tube electronics for audio, the 6SN7GT became a major player again, due to its availability, and, most likely, due to its inherently good audio qualities. Its high power dissipation compared to miniature tubes made it reliable and able to be run hard. The large internal structure compared to miniature tubes contributes to its low distortion. The existence of many variants and many manufacturers of the 6SN7GT over the years gives lots of types to play with – each with its own sonic fingerprint.
Audiophiles may have their own favorite dual triodes, ranging from exotic European types like the ECC40 to the rugged industrial types like the 5687. But the 6SN7GT is arguably the best general-purpose audio triode. Its large octal format is more rugged and less prone to intermittent pin connections than miniature type. Its mu of 20 is a nice compromise between the old low-mu types and low-current high mu types. The plate resistance is low enough to drive choke or transformer loads. The 0.6A heater current, while not as low as the 12AU7, is reasonable, and assures the cathode has plenty of emission reserve. The fact that it is still manufactured and that there are still lots of N.O.S. tubes available make it possible to design the 6SN7GT into modern equipment without fear of obsolescence.
To put the 6SN7GT into perspective, it does have some flaws. There is no shielding between sections, so unwanted interactions can occur. It is more microphonic that the better miniature types, so it can’t be used in very low-level stages. Most types don’t reject heater hum as well as some specific audio types, such as the EF86, 6J7, 12AT7, good 12AX7s, etc. It is rather large, compared to miniatures. The current-production Russian and Chinese types don’t sound as good as American or European ones from the 1940s, 50s and 60s. But, no other tube combines so many good characteristics.    
 
http://www.effectrode.com/signal-tubes/the-6sn7gt-the-best-general-purpose-dual-triode/


----------



## Johan-71

Gonna be a long weekend, will try to go through my favorite tubes and rearrange them in different flavors, soundstage, 3D, etc. 
Prepare myself before the batch of 6sn7 arrive. 

Welcome to head-fi sorry about your. ...

Ps. If you see something you would like to try out, pm me. 
The pic only shows the ones I use on weekly basis. 
Got a big box with duoblets for spare thats collects dust. Ds.

Johan


----------



## Johan-71

connieflyer Have you compared the 6sn7 with 6n6p, 12bh7a, or e80cc?

I love my 12bh7a soundstage, can it match that soundstage then I'm totally sold.
I know it's a bit laid-back but I've got used to it. 
Can you try to describe the sound compared to any of the above mentioned? 

I have to wait at least another week for my new babies to arrive so I thought you could give me a hint of what to expect.

Sometimes it sucks to live in Sweden


----------



## richard51

i already had compared the 12bh7a tube to bugle boy 12au7 tube and for me the soundstage of this last one was better than that of the former one.....But the sound and soundstage of the  sylvania 6ns7gt  is way better than this  last two...evidence manifest to my ears in 5 seconds...after 5 seconds i never return to these tubes... best regards....


----------



## Johan-71

richard51 said:


> i already had compared the 12bh7a tube to bugle boy 12au7 tube and for me the soundstage of this last one was better than that of the former one.....But the sound and soundstage of the  sylvania 6ns7gt  is way better than this  last two...evidence manifest to my ears in 5 seconds...after 5 seconds i never return to these tubes... best regards....



Thanks for the answer, I went over to DIY and read through the pages again. 
It seems to me that I will have to many tubes in the future. 
I've followed connieflyers recommendations before and have never had any regrets.

Quick question: what headphones have you used with your setup?

Regards Johan


----------



## connieflyer

johan-71 said:


> @connieflyer Have you compared the 6sn7 with 6n6p, 12bh7a, or e80cc?
> 
> I love my 12bh7a soundstage, can it match that soundstage then I'm totally sold.
> I know it's a bit laid-back but I've got used to it.
> ...


 

 Yes sir, I have had those tubes as well, and there, to me, is no comparison.  I got rid of all the other tubes except for some Amperex 12at7 bugle boys, a Mullard cv4024, and a telefunken 12at7, and a 12ax7, but don't use those any more either.  Every time I go back, they don't last more than an hour and I go back to any of the 6SN7's.  Please remember, that we all hear differently, this is only my experience, yours may be different.  Hope the wait is over soon for you.  Don


----------



## Johan-71

Thanks, so now I'll have a really early Christmas or late depends on how you see it.
I remembered that you had those tubes at the same time as I.
And I also remember that my taste of the sound of them were quite similar to yours. 

You don't make it any easier for me to wait on my delivery. ...

Johan



connieflyer said:


> Yes sir, I have had those tubes as well, and there, to me, is no comparison.  I got rid of all the other tubes except for some Amperex 12at7 bugle boys, a Mullard cv4024, and a telefunken 12at7, and a 12ax7, but don't use those any more either.  Every time I go back, they don't last more than an hour and I go back to any of the 6SN7's.  Please remember, that we all hear differently, this is only my experience, yours may be different.  Hope the wait is over soon for you.  Don


----------



## connieflyer

The wait won't be any easier, but it will be sweeter when you get it!


----------



## richard51

johan-71 said:


> Thanks for the answer, I went over to DIY and read through the pages again.
> It seems to me that I will have to many tubes in the future.
> I've followed connieflyers recommendations before and have never had any regrets.
> 
> ...


 

 i use he 400 for jazz and stax lambda nova  basic for choral music....With the 6ns7 tube the he 400 are different but on par with the basic stax systems... The ember is the best amp for the bucks...


----------



## RedBull

connieflyer said:


>


 
  
 This amps look good too with bigger tube.
  
 Did you change the volume knob?


----------



## connieflyer

Yes I picked up a bigger knob, think it looks better and easier to fine tune volume.


----------



## caracara08

got my adapter in today! Now have to find out whats a good, decently priced tube.


----------



## RedBull

I am getting one 6sn7 adapter too.
Can't wait to try it.


----------



## Solrighal

redbull said:


> I am getting one 6sn7 adapter too.
> Can't wait to try it.


 
  
 And I can't wait to hear your impressions


----------



## RedBull

Sorry to dissapoint you but i don't have the tubes yet. But i also ordered 6n30p, 12at7, 12au7 along with 6dj8 that i have.
That's currently enough to keep me 'busy' for the time being.
Anyway, Jeremy don't have 6sn7 that he can recommend to me yet, he's too busy with the cnc casing project.


----------



## bavinck

redbull said:


> Sorry to dissapoint you but i don't have the tubes yet. But i also ordered 6n30p, 12at7, 12au7 along with 6dj8 that i have.
> That's currently enough to keep me 'busy' for the time being.
> Anyway, Jeremy don't have 6sn7 that he can recommend to me yet, he's too busy with the cnc casing project.


 
 I just ordered an Amperex 6sn7gt from *mercedesman6572 on ebay. I have bought a couple tubes from him before, he is very easy to buy from, sells quality tubes and has fair prices. I will keep you posted on the results. I do not know this gentleman at all, other than recently buying some tubes from him. He sold me a 12au7 bugle boy for $35 that is just glorious!*


----------



## J&J

Just my 2 cents concerning the 6sn7 in Ember. I've used a GE side D getter with clear top and side flashing It has a light airy sound with huge sound stage but I think I still prefer a 12bh7. Interestingly the 6sn7 is really imo the best sounding tube in my Solstice again huge sound stage which seems to be a characteristic of this family of tubes.


----------



## ericr

caracara08 said:


> got my adapter in today! Now have to find out whats a good, decently priced tube.




This was me two weeks ago.

Since then I've spent waaayyyyy to much time on the 6SN7 hunt. Oh well.

Late last week I finally pulled the trigger and won an eBay listing for two JAN (military) tubes - a Hytron and a Ken-Rad VT-231. Hoping they arrive in time for the weekend.


----------



## connieflyer

So you were the won that beat me to them! Shame on you! Hope they turn out good for you.


----------



## RedBull

bavinck said:


> I just ordered an Amperex 6sn7gt from *[COLOR=0000CC]mercedesman6572 on ebay. I have bought a couple tubes from him before, he is very easy to buy from, sells quality tubes and has fair prices. I will keep you posted on the results. I do not know this gentleman at all, other than recently buying some tubes from him. He sold me a 12au7 bugle boy for $35 that is just glorious![/color]*




That's great. I will look out for him when i have tried all my new 9 pon tubes.
All seems to mention big sound, larger soundstage with 6sn7, that got me curious. I wonder if 'big sound, large soundstage psychologically contributed from its large physical tube size, hmm


----------



## connieflyer

No


----------



## Johan-71

ericr said:


> This was me two weeks ago.
> 
> Since then I've spent waaayyyyy to much time on the 6SN7 hunt. Oh well.
> 
> Late last week I finally pulled the trigger and won an eBay listing for two JAN (military) tubes - a Hytron and a Ken-Rad VT-231. Hoping they arrive in time for the weekend.




I lost that bidding, so thanks for saving me some money. 
I hope they sounds good. 
Later that weekend i bought a single VT-231 KR so please give us your impressions.


----------



## ericr

johan-71 said:


> I lost that bidding, so thanks for saving me some money.
> I hope they sounds good.
> Later that weekend i bought a single VT-231 KR so please give us your impressions.




Glad to know I've done my part to save a fellow HF member from the expense of this hobby. 

I'll report back once I've given them a good listen. Please do likewise!


----------



## RedBull

connieflyer said:


> No




;P


----------



## kid vic

I'm about to pull the trigger on an Ember but I want to know if I should get the supercharger option. I'm not really into hardcore tube rolling but I'm willing to have up to 5 tubes that highlight (or mask) certain qualities.
 I listen to R'n'B, Soul, Jazz, Hip-hop and Bass music; I want a group of tubes where each will have certain characteristics for certain moods and headphones. I would rather not buy the supercharger if I dont have to so i can buy more tubes, but if a tube with my desired sound signature requires it then I will.
  
 I want :
 Impactful bass with speed
 Captivating/euphonic sound
 Large soundstage with detail
 Lush and smooth sound
  
 If anyone can suggest a tube that has any of those qualities singly or in combo that would be great.


----------



## RedBull

If we want to use 6sn7 tube, do we need supercharger module?


----------



## Solrighal

redbull said:


> If we want to use 6sn7 tube, do we need supercharger module?


 
  
 No, but you do need the adapter.


----------



## RedBull

Isn't the current needed also quite high? I don't know for sure, just guessing now.


----------



## Johan-71

Got my adapter from Jeremy. 
Just have to wait for my tubes to start dropping in. 
Ordered the adapter last weekend, only took 5 days to Sweden so why can't the tubes arrive at the same time? 
Some of the traders on fleabay charge enormous prices for delivering to Sweden but they can't match Jeremy in service, speed and support.


----------



## Johan-71

redbull said:


> Isn't the current needed also quite high? I don't know for sure, just guessing now.




If you would like to try the 12bh7a or 6n6p you need the super charger. They will draw up to 900 mA.
The 6sn7 only need 600 mA, but if you install the supercharger it will start up a little faster and you are on the safe side if you would like to go crazy with the tube collecting. 
It's fun and cost some money and you will end up like some of us with 40-50 tubes thats collecting dust...


----------



## Solrighal

I would definitely get the supercharger anyway. It's not that much more money and peace of mind is a good thing to have.


----------



## kid vic

solrighal said:


> I would definitely get the supercharger anyway. It's not that much more money and peace of mind is a good thing to have.


 
 Lool the ember (built and shipped) with supercharger is $516 CAD, thats at the top of my budget for only "peace of mind".


----------



## Solrighal

kid vic said:


> Lool the ember (built and shipped) with supercharger is $516 CAD, thats at the top of my budget for only "peace of mind".


 
  
 Then don't.


----------



## RedBull

johan-71 said:


> If you would like to try the 12bh7a or 6n6p you need the super charger. They will draw up to 900 mA.
> The 6sn7 only need 600 mA, but if you install the supercharger it will start up a little faster and you are on the safe side if you would like to go crazy with the tube collecting.
> It's fun and cost some money and you will end up like some of us with 40-50 tubes thats collecting dust...




I see. If i use 900 ma tubes, would that force ember to work too hard hence shorten its life?

I won't go to that extreme  i think max would just 10.




kid vic said:


> Lool the ember (built and shipped) with supercharger is $516 CAD, thats at the top of my budget for only "peace of mind".




Why don't you think that it would save you some money on separate shipping cost later, if you end up liking high current tubes.
It's all perspective


----------



## J&J

If you can afford the additional $45.00 get the SC option installed on your Ember and also buy the 6sn7 adapter The reason being the ability to use tubes with higher heater current like the 12bh7 a wonderful sounding tube and the 6sn7 which I believe has .6 amp heater current and would need the SC option and the adapter also an amazing sounding tube.
  As far my experience with this Amp you need 3 tubes one 6dj8 Amperex orange globe or bugle boy, one RCA/Sylvania/GE 12bh7 and one GE side getter 6sn7 Each type of tube will present a different sound "flavor"
 I think these 3 tubes can get you started to the tube rolling cult.
  If however if you need just one option and not be addicted by tube rolling then get the Ember straight up no SC no adapter and get yourself an amperex OG or BB and Mercedes man is a safe bet on ebay


----------



## Johan-71

First pic of the new family member. 
Welcome home 6sn7gt

It's to early to review the sound but my first impression is more organic than my 12bh7a rca I've been listening to under the weekend. 
This is a Sylvania labeled Magnavox.
Everything about rolling is nuances, some tubes have bigger differences. 
The 6sn7gt to my ears so far makes the music a little more relaxed and laid back. 
Not talking about the positioning or stage now. 
It's hard to explain even in my native language so i hope i make you guys gets something out of this. 
Mini review: I like what I hear.


----------



## Johan-71

I'm totally sold, there's no going back to 9- pins.
Thanks Jeremy and Garage 1217.


----------



## Solrighal

johan-71 said:


> I'm totally sold, there's no going back to 9- pins.
> Thanks Jeremy and Garage 1217.


 
  
 That's good to hear as I am also going down the same route.


----------



## richard51

i am also on the same boat...no going back with this 6ns7 sylvania.....


----------



## richard51

No one has yet made a review with the Ember and this 6ns7 tube versus other Amps.... The past reviews are seriously handicapped by the use of an other tube than the 6 ns7.... I prefer now the Ember and the he 400 to the stax basic systems....Less clarity perhaps more more realistic sound....thanks to my sylvania jan chs wgt 6ns7...


----------



## Johan-71

richard51 said:


> No one has yet made a review with the Ember and this 6ns7 tube versus other Amps.... The past reviews are seriously handicapped by the use of an other tube than the 6 ns7.... I prefer now the Ember and the he 400 to the stax basic systems....Less clarity perhaps more more realistic sound....thanks to my sylvania jan chs wgt 6ns7...



I've spent the whole morning with my computer listening/watching HD live concerts in different changers. 
The realism from the 6SN7 tubes is incredible, the timbre, separation and soundstage is in another league compared to my 9 pins. 

I'm bidding on a pair of jan-chs 6sn7gt sylvania so please try to stay away this time 
...


----------



## connieflyer

For those folks interested in 6SN7 tubes, this may help tell the difference between versions.
 http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=54889.0
 Issue 11 Spring 1999
 https://web.archive.org/web/20130805141923/http://www.jumpjet.info/Pioneering-Wireless/eMagazines/VTV/VTV11.pdf
  read this pdf for interesting article.
  
http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=54889.0
  
 Posted on other Ember forums as well.


----------



## richard51

johan-71 said:


> I've spent the whole morning with my computer listening/watching HD live concerts in different changers.
> The realism from the 6SN7 tubes is incredible, the timbre, separation and soundstage is in another league compared to my 9 pins.
> 
> I'm bidding on a pair of jan-chs 6sn7gt sylvania so please try to stay away this time
> ...


 

 i am no there .... i bid no more....i had 8 of this marvelllous tube already....


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


> For those folks interested in 6SN7 tubes, this may help tell the difference between versions.
> http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=54889.0
> Issue 11 Spring 1999
> https://web.archive.org/web/20130805141923/http://www.jumpjet.info/Pioneering-Wireless/eMagazines/VTV/VTV11.pdf
> ...


 

 thans very much for this interesting articles.....


----------



## Johan-71

richard51 said:


> i am no there .... i bid no more....i had 8 of this marvelllous tube already....



Let me know if you want to get rid of one. 
It seems like I'm losing my bidding on fleabay.


----------



## richard51

johan-71 said:


> Let me know if you want to get rid of one.
> It seems like I'm losing my bidding on fleabay.


 

 i dont want to sell them now.... I must take my time to try them all.....


----------



## Solrighal

connieflyer said:


> For those folks interested in 6SN7 tubes, this may help tell the difference between versions.
> http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=54889.0
> Issue 11 Spring 1999
> https://web.archive.org/web/20130805141923/http://www.jumpjet.info/Pioneering-Wireless/eMagazines/VTV/VTV11.pdf
> ...


 
  
  


richard51 said:


> thans very much for this interesting articles.....


 
  
 It is interesting, isn't it. Far more so than a modern equivalent might be, microchips & all. Thanks Connie.


----------



## connieflyer

Gordon, this is the "connie" in connieflyer in case you are wondering, Locheed Constellation flew Electronics Technician on these birds.


----------



## connieflyer

johan-71 said:


> I've spent the whole morning with my computer listening/watching HD live concerts in different changers.
> The realism from the 6SN7 tubes is incredible, the timbre, separation and soundstage is in another league compared to my 9 pins.
> 
> I'm bidding on a pair of jan-chs 6sn7gt sylvania so please try to stay away this time
> ...


 

 Did you win the auction?  I am bidding on a couple myself


----------



## Solrighal

connieflyer said:


> Gordon, this is the "connie" in connieflyer in case you are wondering, Locheed Constellation flew Electronics Technician on these birds.


 
  
 I knew that mate, I read it elsewhere. That's why I posted the video in the other place & name-checked yourself. I'm now guessing you didn't see it.
  
 Never mind, the Connie in my mind looks way better than that


----------



## Johan-71

connieflyer said:


> Did you win the auction?  I am bidding on a couple myself



Well I hope you got it, I stopped my bidding at €50.
If you won and it was for a pair send me a pm if you wanna split. 
I was bidding on a pair of ken - rad vt231 at the same time but I rest my case. 
They're up in €61 right now and that's to much for me, especially when I only need one. 
Next time we maybe could synchronise and split a pair.

Edit. I think it's the same seller on both of the pairs a was bidding on, from Italy.


----------



## connieflyer

Lost the ones I was bidding on also.  Price point was getting out of hand, and I was not willing to invest that much.  Looking for a Raytheon 6SN7WGT of a Sylvania 6SN7W togetter from 1940.  Not easy to find at a price that I would spend.  Can not believe the difference with the 6SN7's compared to the 9 pins, so glad I started with these, except for my wallet.


----------



## connieflyer

Johan-71 a few more  Ken-Rads  http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-2-KEN-RAD-BLACK-GLASS-BLACK-PLATE-VT-231-6SN7GT-TV-7-U-TESTED-STRONG/251872083025?_trksid=p2059216.c100149.m2821&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140127103305%26meid%3D3ddc5f8566854775a72fb34aaf71ea3a%26pid%3D100149%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D261805745551  Every bid I have put on the Ken-Rads, I have lost.  If you look at the bid detail you can see what the bidder has done in the past, and it is obvious these bidders are not buying them for themselves.  This last guy had 115 bids in the last 30 days,  he is a reseller for sure.  Have to figure out how to beat them at their own game.


----------



## connieflyer

These would be the ones I would like to have........http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pr-JAN-CKR-KenRad-VT-231-6SN7GT-Very-Low-Hours-Test-High-1944/351320216313?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D28772%26meid%3D164f5b74819c4b95923293f4bfb728d1%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D251872083025&rt=nc


----------



## Solrighal

connieflyer said:


> These would be the ones I would like to have........http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pr-JAN-CKR-KenRad-VT-231-6SN7GT-Very-Low-Hours-Test-High-1944/351320216313?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D28772%26meid%3D164f5b74819c4b95923293f4bfb728d1%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D251872083025&rt=nc


 
  
 That is crazy money!


----------



## Johan-71

Got my Cossor 6sn7gt today, it's warm and intimate with a good base. 
More tubey than my Magnavox/sylvania and only cost me $ 9.
If you're looking for something warmer to put it your Ember this one is definitely worth the low price. IMHO of course. 
Now I have to wait a couple of days for my new Sylvania jan chs 6sn7wgt to show up.

Welcome to Head-Fi, sorry about your wallet...


----------



## connieflyer

So far the Sylvania vt 231 one from the 1940's is my favorite, does everything well followed by the Tun-Sol CH L6sn7gt, very accurate as well, but not as warm as the Sylvania.


----------



## ericr

connieflyer said:


> So far the Sylvania vt 231 one from the 1940's is my favorite, does everything well followed by the Tun-Sol CH L6sn7gt, very accurate as well, but not as warm as the Sylvania.i




Does Sylvania vt231 from the 1940's have flat plates or T plates?


----------



## Frihed89

ericr said:


> Does Sylvania vt231 from the 1940's have flat plates or T plates?


 
 Sylvania made at least 5 versions of a VT231.  All of them have t plates. See: http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6SN7/?g2_page=5


----------



## caracara08

Oh, btw, I ordered one of those bi metal drill bits to widen the tube entry hole on my face plate.  If anyone wants it after Im done, just pay for shipping.  I made a mistake and purchased it off ebay and its coming from China so its still a bit out but just wanted to make anyone aware instead of buying your own for whatever amount and only using it once.  Id expect shipping to only run a couple dollars (USA only).


----------



## caracara08

Just plugged in my Brown base JAN  6Sn7 from Brent Jesse.  sound is more 3D than my previous tube and a little brighter.  Very nice sound but may be a bit bright for the HD700 combo for my ears but thats because the HD700 was already on the edge of what I enjoy treble wise.  Overall, I say the adapter + tube was worth hearing what else this little amp can do.


----------



## richard51

wow! all sylvania 6sn7 are not equal.... My last purchase a 1951 sylvania 6sn7GT trancend my other one the Sylvania Jan CHS 6SN7GT.... more bass and more highs....more spatialized 3 d sound... I am in love with the EMBER.... Nobody  had compared it with the right tube with more pricey amp ....The 6SN7 family are superior to all others i had try....


----------



## Johan-71

I couldn't resist the jan chs 6sn7wgt after all the prayers. It's extremely airy and 3d in the soundstage. 
The other one on the pic is also a Sylvania, don't know how old it is but it's a 6sn7gt. 
It has the same 3d but not the same airiness as the jan, but it has more body, feels a bit warmer to me. Of course all of it is just nuances, and my taste and hearing is probably not the same as yours. 
Right now I'm enjoying the GT with my HE-500 and to me it's the best combination I ever heard. 
It took me probably a 40-50 different tubes to got here but I won't spend any more money at eBay for a long time. 
I'm waiting for three more tubes to drop in in the nearest weeks, but I have hard times to imagine they will be any better than this setup. 
Different yes, but to my ears im in heaven right now. 
(I'll probably gonna regret what I wrote now when the others pops up).

Johan


----------



## richard51

johan-71 said:


> I couldn't resist the jan chs 6sn7wgt after all the prayers. It's extremely airy and 3d in the soundstage.
> The other one on the pic is also a Sylvania, don't know how old it is but it's a 6sn7gt.
> It has the same 3d but not the same airiness as the jan, but it has more body, feels a bit warmer to me. Of course all of it is just nuances, and my taste and hearing is probably not the same as yours.
> Right now I'm enjoying the GT with my HE-500 and to me it's the best combination I ever heard.
> ...


 





 i understand you perfectly...... enjoy your audio exctasy


----------



## rmouser

j&j said:


> If you can afford the additional $45.00 get the SC option installed on your Ember and also buy the 6sn7 adapter The reason being the ability to use tubes with higher heater current like the 12bh7 a wonderful sounding tube and the 6sn7 which I believe has .6 amp heater current and would need the SC option and the adapter also an amazing sounding tube.
> As far my experience with this Amp you need 3 tubes one 6dj8 Amperex orange globe or bugle boy, one RCA/Sylvania/GE 12bh7 and one GE side getter 6sn7 Each type of tube will present a different sound "flavor"
> I think these 3 tubes can get you started to the tube rolling cult.
> If however if you need just one option and not be addicted by tube rolling then get the Ember straight up no SC no adapter and get yourself an amperex OG or BB and Mercedes man is a safe bet on ebay


 
 Hello Ember mates,
  
 This is my first time on this thread. I've attached a pic of my rig, which I nicknamed VaderNator in honor of Star wars 7. The metal chassis and tube DO give it a new look.
  
 I just happen to have the 6DJ8, 12BH7 and 6SN7 mentioned above and I agree wholeheartedly. I also have two RCA 6SN7s that I am burning in. My first place tube was a Sylvania 5751. While the 6SN7 is not "quite" as dynamic (gain of 70), the rest easily exceeds it. I quess that bigger is better?
  
 I am burning in the 12BH7 in my Sunrise 2 next to the Ember, looks basically the same. It already has its version of SC designed in.
  
 If this question has already been posted, please forgive. What is the general consensus of the best sounding 6SN7 tube? Sylvania seems have the most posts. I will spend the $$$ to buy one.
  
 EMBER FOREVER


----------



## richard51

rmouser said:


> Hello Ember mates,
> 
> This is my first time on this thread. I've attached a pic of my rig, which I nicknamed VaderNator in honor of Star wars 7. The metal chassis and tube DO give it a new look.
> 
> ...


 

 Welcome... I try several sylvanias... difference exist between them.....i will receive a tungsol in few weeks... I will not try another tube not in the 6 ns7 family.... I like them a lot....more body to the sound in my system....the ember powered my stax amp and my swan powered speakers and my hifiman he 400.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The ember for this low price is the best purchase for multiple heaphones and pre out with speakers.....


----------



## Johan-71

My latest persuade. 
Ken-rad 6sn7gt and Philips 6sn7gt. 
It's going to be a good long night.


----------



## sasquatch98

I'm still trying to make a decision on which amp I want for my HD580s and possibly future HD650 (OCD over research strikes again). I had it narrowed down between Ember, Solstice, Horizon and maybe the Bottlehead Crack which has been my first choice except I hate waiting and don't want to wait 4-6 weeks for it to come in. However now I've seen the Darkvoice 336 is available on Amazon with prime shipping for $299, have any of you heard the Darkvoice and could give me an idea on how its sounds vs Ember or other Garage1217 amps? The reviews I've found of the Darkvoice seem good and it sounds like its similar to the crack.


----------



## richard51

sasquatch98 said:


> I'm still trying to make a decision on which amp I want for my HD580s and possibly future HD650 (OCD over research strikes again). I had it narrowed down between Ember, Solstice, Horizon and maybe the Bottlehead Crack which has been my first choice except I hate waiting and don't want to wait 4-6 weeks for it to come in. However now I've seen the Darkvoice 336 is available on Amazon with prime shipping for $299, have any of you heard the Darkvoice and could give me an idea on how its sounds vs Ember or other Garage1217 amps? The reviews I've found of the Darkvoice seem good and it sounds like its similar to the crack.


 

 i am sure Darkvoice is good sounding , i had read like you many good reviews... But think about the difference between the Ember ( flexibility for each headphone peculiarity and automatic bias in tube rolling) The choice is easy.... Before purchasing ember i had the same dilemna about darkvoice and many other very good  tube amp...i dont regret it, on the contrary, I congratulate me for my choice
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 p.s. dont forget the 5 years warranty that jeremy and frans extended to all Ember used or not... Wow


----------



## RedBull

I used to have dv337. From my distance memory, dv337 sounds very good with hd650 with long decay, deep and wide soundstage. The only thing that annoys me a little is the 2 volume control. Everytime you want to increase/reduce volume you have to adjust 2 times.
Soundwise, bass is huge but i think not as punchy and toe-tapping as Ember.
But overall is still VERY good.

Notes: i had dv337 like 4 years ago. So many variant of dv337 around, i do not know which version is mine.


----------



## DavidA

sasquatch98 said:


> I'm still trying to make a decision on which amp I want for my HD580s and possibly future HD650 (OCD over research strikes again). I had it narrowed down between Ember, Solstice, Horizon and maybe the Bottlehead Crack which has been my first choice except I hate waiting and don't want to wait 4-6 weeks for it to come in. However now I've seen the Darkvoice 336 is available on Amazon with prime shipping for $299, have any of you heard the Darkvoice and could give me an idea on how its sounds vs Ember or other Garage1217 amps? The reviews I've found of the Darkvoice seem good and it sounds like its similar to the crack.


 

 I got the Ember for the adjustable output impedance which really help you fine tune the amp to the headphone.  Also, you only have one tube to deal with, with the darkvoice you will be dealing with two.  I haven't heard the darkvoice but it seems like the crack where you can really get creative with the tubes.


----------



## richard51

johan-71 said:


> My latest persuade.
> Ken-rad 6sn7gt and Philips 6sn7gt.
> It's going to be a good long night.


 

 congratulation! If you can write about them....


----------



## connieflyer

Johan- 71 is going to love that Kenrad, I am loving mine, rolled in a couple of other tubes but had to go back each time to the Ken-rad.  Super tube, base is really great on the hd650's as well.


----------



## heliosphann

I recently got a Solstice amp. Just got some tubes and I want to roll them. Is it as easy as pulling the tube straight out of it's housing and putting the new one in? I assume it's very similar to the Ember. They both have the auto-bias.


----------



## Amish

heliosphann said:


> I recently got a Solstice amp. Just got some tubes and I want to roll them. Is it as easy as pulling the tube straight out of it's housing and putting the new one in? I assume it's very similar to the Ember. They both have the auto-bias.


 
 Yes. Just pull it out and pop in your new tube. That is the beauty of auto-bias.


----------



## Johan-71

Sorry for no response about the Ken - Rad. 
Been playing with my latest build. 

Have to second Connieflyer, it's al about the base.
And the clarity, space, realism and tone.
It's the perfect alrounder.
Sorry but did I tell you bout the base

Kind of 2-3 db increase in the 30-100hz area but without the bleeding to lower mids.

The Philips 6sn7gt needs more burn in, sounds flat and dull. Probably my first "NOS" that's really was NOS.

Next step will be to try my Ember as a preamp to the oddwatts I build. 
Any tip on how to make your wife more understanding to this hobby would be appreciated. 

Johan


----------



## RedBull

Do you think Ember is a true pre amp, means amplifiying signal or just volume controlled tube buffer?


----------



## Johan-71

Don't know yet, haven't studied the schematic so it's hard to tell. 
Must be someone here who knows, otherwise we have to ask Jeremy. 
I'm still trying to find out a way to get my wife out of the house so I can start playing with my toys. 

Johan


----------



## RedBull

That's fine, i will ask Jeremy.

Hahaha. That's tricky one.


----------



## connieflyer

I have tried dropping dollar bills along the floors leading outside to the car so she can shop, but she always gets her foot in the door just before I shut it!.  I wait until she goes down stairs to use the tread mill, as I know she has headphones on then,  Then I put the Ember on as a preamp and it does sound a little different than just running it through the receiver .  Prefer using it with headphones though.  Watched a couple of Dvd's last night, one was Roy Orbison's Black and White disk and the other was Alison Krauss's Live from the tracking room, and the soundfield was absolutely amazing.  Have listened to these two disks for years and have never heard them sound like this.  The wife had to have a listen and she agreed, and you know wive's are always right.  Thought I would throw that in in case she is watching!


----------



## Amish

Wives _are_ always right. Even when they are wrong they are really right. My wife always has a 'but' to turn everything around on me.
  
 Personally I usually have to wait til her and the kids go to bed at night before I play.


----------



## richard51

i use the Ember pre amp out with my  powered speakers and that made a great difference for me ....


----------



## Johan-71

Happy wife, happy life...


----------



## connieflyer

After 44 years of marriage, I know what battles to fight, only those I can win or at least fight to a draw, that is why it is so peaceful here, we don't fight.  What's the point, she will win in the end.  Just have to hide some of the purchases, like new tubes, I go out and get the mail, run around to the back of the house, sneak in the back yard, crawl across the deck, slither through the pet door, and quietly open the door off the porch, into my space where she will greet me with a pair of scissors to open the box, she just KNOWS when I am going to get something!


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> After 44 years of marriage, I know what battles to fight, only those I can win or at least fight to a draw, that is why it is so peaceful here, we don't fight.  What's the point, she will win in the end.  Just have to hide some of the purchases, like new tubes, I go out and get the mail, run around to the back of the house, sneak in the back yard, crawl across the deck, slither through the pet door, and quietly open the door off the porch, into my space where she will greet me with a pair of scissors to open the box, she just KNOWS when I am going to get something!


 

 too funny, but it was my mom who just knew
  
 girlfriend is on the same page as me so all is good


----------



## ericr

connieflyer said:


> After 44 years of marriage, I know what battles to fight, only those I can win or at least fight to a draw, that is why it is so peaceful here, we don't fight.  What's the point, she will win in the end.  Just have to hide some of the purchases, like new tubes, I go out and get the mail, run around to the back of the house, sneak in the back yard, crawl across the deck, slither through the pet door, and quietly open the door off the porch, into my space where she will greet me with a pair of scissors to open the box, she just KNOWS when I am going to get something!




LOL! My wife though that was funny.

Though you give your wife away. We know she's sweet 'cause she's greeting you with scissors and not a knife!


----------



## ericr

heliosphann said:


> I recently got a Solstice amp. Just got some tubes and I want to roll them. Is it as easy as pulling the tube straight out of it's housing and putting the new one in? I assume it's very similar to the Ember. They both have the auto-bias.




Auto-bias yes, but IIRC the Solstice has manual voltage selection. You don't want to be plugging in a 6 volt tube if she's set at 12 volts!


----------



## heliosphann

amish said:


> Yes. Just pull it out and pop in your new tube. That is the beauty of auto-bias.


 
  
  


ericr said:


> Auto-bias yes, but IIRC the Solstice has manual voltage selection. You don't want to be plugging in a 6 volt tube if she's set at 12 volts!


 
  
 Thanks guys. I'll be mostly using 12au7 tubes since I have a few other amps that use that spec tube. 
  
 Any recommendations and or places to buy tubes from besides Ebay?


----------



## connieflyer

Try the tubes list from Jeremy on this site I purchased a couple of tubes from him and very well satisfied, I know of at least one other member that has purchased from him also....http://garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_008.htm


----------



## RedBull

Hey guys, do you pair your ember with hd800? Do you think it sounds great or not? I totally agree i heard hd650 sounds best with Ember, i never heard 650 sounds better, but i don't think so it sounds optimal for hd800.
Or is it my tube doesn't complement hd800 enough. Or ember signature does not match 800.
I don't think it's the power but more to sound sig?
I find the upper mid range is a bit too strong and forward for 800 hence it narrows the soundstage a bit.
I use 6dj8, 12au7, cv4024, 6n30p.
I find 800 need a really warm amp to fill up the bottom?


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> Hey guys, do you pair your ember with hd800? Do you think it sounds great or not? I totally agree i heard hd650 sounds best with Ember, i never heard 650 sounds better, but i don't think so it sounds optimal for hd800.
> Or is it my tube doesn't complement hd800 enough. Or ember signature does not match 800.
> I don't think it's the power but more to sound sig?
> I find the upper mid range is a bit too strong and forward for 800 hence it narrows the soundstage a bit.
> ...


 

 My HD-800 is arriving on Monday, I'll post back after a few days with my thoughts.  Also ordered a Bottlehead Crack for them.
 As for tubes that I've been using, I like Bugle Boys for the HD-700 and RS2e, gives both the HD-700 and RS2e solid bass and keeps the highs from becoming to bright.  Telefunken's tend to be brighter sounding to me and word great with the HD-650 and SRH-1840.


----------



## RedBull

Thanks David.
I find some tubes are more noisier than the other.

12au7 and 6n30p are the quietest, no hum at all at normal listening volume.

6dj8 reasonably quite, some faint hum detected.

Cv4024 (12at7) is the noisiest, is makes audible sound, and when i touch the the aluminum case, the hum gets slightly louder. Strangely, the sound dissapear after like 15-20 mins. I hope this noise gets better over the time after the tube gets more burn in.


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> Thanks David.
> I find some tubes are more noisier than the other.
> 
> 12au7 and 6n30p are the quietest, no hum at all at normal listening volume.
> ...


 
 After reading your post, I was thinking that my Lyr2 used to ring ever so slightly when plugging in headphones and have some noise with some tubes but that it disappeared after I started using socket savers in them but I never noticed this ringing with the ember.  The socket savers have some damping employed in them which isolated the tubes better.  With the ember this was never an issue so didn't use socket savers in them.  I'm wondering if the aluminum case is a possible cause for some of the noise.  Might be interesting to remove the top cover and see if the noise gets less.  LMK, I was thinking of ordering the aluminum case for my ember but it possibly cause noise I'll pass on it.
 I agree with you that 12at7 is the noisiest, I have two telefunken's, one is 12at7 (a little noise), the other is 12au7 (dead silent)


----------



## RedBull

Ah, great, that makes me releaved a bit, so i am sure that may amp is okay, only the AT tube is a little fuzzy.

Yes, if i remove the top cover the noise is gone, but that's never an issue with other silent tubes. And the aluminum case is so cool looking!! 

Today i use the 12at7 again, the noise is even lesser, on and off, sometimes it's there sometimes it is not, even with aluminum chasis on. Now i leave the tube on although the sources are off just to burn in more.

I thought the aluminum casis is for limited time only? 

I tried with different album, the upper mid slight over emphasize is not there. Maybe that album recording is not good (Frozen OST).


----------



## RedBull

Can you comment a bit more on sound sig of lyr2 vs ember David?
I know it's tube dependant, just use your assumptions with some generalization will do.

I really curious how 6 watts sounds with my headphones.


----------



## RedBull

Update on the 'noisy' Mullard cv4024 tube.
After i leave the amp on for about an hour, the noise dissapear completely. Without any music playing, only when i crank up to 1 oclock i can hear some noise, but i would have been deaf by then because i listen normally at 8 to 9.30 o clock max with my hd650.
Hope it stays this way.


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> Can you comment a bit more on sound sig of lyr2 vs ember David?
> I know it's tube dependant, just use your assumptions with some generalization will do.
> 
> I really curious how 6 watts sounds with my headphones.


 
 As for Frozen sound track, the recording is not the greatest, I had to modify in Audacity to keep the level from clipping on Demi's version of Let it Go, the one by Idina is ok.  Didn't bother to work on other songs.
  
 Sound difference between Lyr2 and Ember:  Using same (ie: telefunken or bugle boy, etc) the Ember is the warmer sounding of the two.  For details, sound stage and extended highs the Lyr2 is better, but how much depends on the tubes.  This relationship is also based on different headphones pairing better with the amp and also the music that you are listening to, best way I can describe this:
  
 HE-400i sounds better with Lyr2, bass goes lower and has more weight, mids don't seem to change much, highs are smooth with great detail *most* of the time. 
  
 HE-560 sounds better with Ember, bass is nice and solid, mids slightly forward and highs smooth and extended, sound stage not quite as wide as with the Lyr2 but the sound is better balanced and has effortless quality to it.  If the music is very dynamic like watching movies the Lyr2 seems to handle it better
  
 The difference is fairly easy to notice based on using the same type of tube but IMO its more a matter of which sound signature you prefer, both sound really good to me
  
 The headphones that I noticed may pair great with one amp and not so good with the other is my RS2e and SRH-1840.  The RS2e sounds so much better on the Ember, bass hits low, mids and highs nice and smooth.  With the Lyr2 it doesn't really pair well, bass is muddy and mids are to forward, highs are borderline harsh.  SRH-1840 pairs well with the Lyr2, I feel that the Lyr2 being the warmer/brighter amp goes well with the SRH-1840 as its a much warmer headphone than the RS2e.  On the Ember the SRH-1840 seem like there is a haze/veil filter installed somewhere along the line.
  
 A lot of times I start playing the music and will switch amps depending on my mood at the time so its really not a which is better thing for me, more like which will I enjoy the music more at that instant.
  
 Wow, sorry for being so long winded


----------



## Solrighal

davida said:


> As for Frozen sound track, the recording is not the greatest, I had to modify in Audacity to keep the level from clipping on Demi's version of Let it Go, the one by Idina is ok.  Didn't bother to work on other songs.
> 
> Sound difference between Lyr2 and Ember:  Using same (ie: telefunken or bugle boy, etc) the Ember is the warmer sounding of the two.  For details, sound stage and extended highs the Lyr2 is better, but how much depends on the tubes.  This relationship is also based on different headphones pairing better with the amp and also the music that you are listening to, best way I can describe this:
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Any thoughts on the HD 650 paired with the Ember? I have an Ember incoming & I've already bought a couple of valves. Both are 6SN7's, one a National Union 6SN7GT (black glass) & the other a Sylvania 6SN7GTA Bad Boy. I've already heard the Ember & HD 650 together but that was using the stock valve.


----------



## DavidA

solrighal said:


> Any thoughts on the HD 650 paired with the Ember? I have an Ember incoming & I've already bought a couple of valves. Both are 6SN7's, one a National Union 6SN7GT (black glass) & the other a Sylvania 6SN7GTA Bad Boy. I've already heard the Ember & HD 650 together but that was using the stock valve.


 
 HD-650 and Ember pair quite well to me, I've been listening with the HD-650 and the Ember for the last hour and a half.  Currently have a Telefunken 12AU7 with the output impedance in middle setting, listening to mellow 80's pop, bass is nice and smooth, mids a little forward (great with ballads), highs smooth and not to peaky. 
 I didn't get the super charger when I got my ember so I didn't get the adapter either, maybe the next one.....


----------



## Solrighal

davida said:


> HD-650 and Ember pair quite well to me, I've been listening with the HD-650 and the Ember for the last hour and a half.  Currently have a Telefunken 12AU7 with the output impedance in middle setting, listening to mellow 80's pop, bass is nice and smooth, mids a little forward (great with ballads), highs smooth and not to peaky.
> I didn't get the super charger when I got my ember so I didn't get the adapter either, maybe the next one.....


 
  
 Most who comment seem to favour the 6SN7's but you're right, that requires the adapter. For the time being anyway. Thanks for your impressions. The Project Ember is going to be my end-game amp. The HD 650 is already there headphone-wise.


----------



## DavidA

solrighal said:


> Most who comment seem to favour the 6SN7's but you're right, that requires the adapter. For the time being anyway. Thanks for your impressions. The Project Ember is going to be my end-game amp. The HD 650 is already there headphone-wise.


 
 Your wallet is very lucky.
 Me, I'm still trying different headphones, not so much as to find the "one" but to sample all the various sound signatures out there and with amps, just ordered a BH Crack and still looking to get a HA-501.  Also got into building a SennGrado and it gave me a "WOW" moment when I first tried it, it sounded so good that I've ordered parts to build 2 more, one for my son and another for a friend who also had a "WOW" moment.
 Happy listening.


----------



## Solrighal

My wallet gave up the ghost long ago. I'm now 50, unemployed & under-educated. This *has* to be the end-game.
  
 Still, could be worse


----------



## DavidA

solrighal said:


> My wallet gave up the ghost long ago. I'm now 50, unemployed & under-educated. This *has* to be the end-game.
> 
> Still, could be worse


 
 Bummer on the unemployed part, I really got lucky last Feb with a early retirement bonus, its paying for this hobby now.
  
 Hope things get better for you


----------



## RedBull

Thanks David for the comparison. That's very helpful. Unfortunately i do not have the headphones that you use for the comparison. How about hd650, any comment of ember vs lyr2?
Yeah, i think Frozen ost recording is not so good anyway. 

I heard people say:
* lyr2 bass has more 'grunt' and ember has more punch,
* ember high is more extended, lyr 2 treble is a touch roll off, 
* lyr 2 detail is okay, ember detail is better. 
is thay true?

I am intrigue about the watching-movie part. Why do you say watching movie is better on lyr2? Which sound part is better on lyr2? As i use my headphone mostly for movies than for for musics.


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> Thanks David for the comparison. That's very helpful. Unfortunately i do not have the headphones that you use for the comparison. How about hd650, any comment of ember vs lyr2?
> Yeah, i think Frozen ost recording is not so good anyway.
> 
> I heard people say:
> ...


 
 With the HD-650: (similar tube in both, ember impedance on middle setting)
 Lyr2 / Ember w/ Sylvania Jan:  The Lyr2 has a more neutral sound, the Ember is on the warmer side,
 Highs: Lyr2 clear extended highs, Ember highs a little rolled off
 Mids: Lyr2 a little recessed but smooth, Ember a little more forward and more bite
 Lows: Lyr2 ok but not extended, well controlled, Ember extended a little better and with good punch
 Sound Stage: Lyr2 has well connected sound stage that is believable, Ember sound stage a little disjointed but wider
  
 Lyr2 / Ember w/ Telefunken tube:  The Ember is closer to neutral than the Lyr2, Lyr2 on the brighter side
 Highs: Lyr2 extended but not smooth, Ember extended and smooth
 Mids: Lyr2 fairly neutral, Ember a little forward but without the bite from the Sylvania jan
 Lows: Lyr2 great extension and weight, Ember extension there but muddy on some songes
 Sound Stage: About the same as above
  
 IMO the Ember sounds more musical while the Lyr2 sounds better from a technical point of view
  
 For watching movies:
 IMO the Lyr2 does a better job in keeping the sound stage connected when something is panning from one side to the other or front to back (Imperial cruiser in star wars IV opening), with the Ember sometimes the panning sound is not smooth across the left to right, I usually only use my HD-700 watching movies as it has the largest sound stage of my current headphones (have HD-800 arriving on Monday).
  
 Took awhile to changes tubes and compare again but gave me a better idea on what pairings I like.


----------



## RedBull

That's quite a detailed comparison. Thanks a lot.

It's amazing that tube can change the sound quite a lot, from good to not so good.
One day i might get lyr2.

Today out of curiosity, i tried ember with very low impedance, high sensitivity ie8. Tube used is cv4024. Not much hope, it's noisy even with volume zero, although the noise is not so heard when the music is playing.
It's too powerful, it's loud enough at even slightest volume, move causing severe channel imbalance or course. At my normal volume, i only hear right channel while left channel is still sleeping.
I don't blame the amp as it is not designed to drive an iem, i was trying just for fun.
Then i plugged in hd650, all is good again, no more noise at normal listening level.

Zorrofox, don't worry about ember and 650, it's the best amp for hd650 that i've ever heard. Bass is strong, deep, tight and punch full, almost like lcd 2.1 level. Mids is just beautifully emotional, give me goosebumps for song She from notting hill ost. High is extended and smoooth. Layering fore and background is superb.

All the above are for my taste.


----------



## Solrighal

redbull said:


> That's quite a detailed comparison. Thanks a lot.
> 
> It's amazing that tube can change the sound quite a lot, from good to not so good.
> One day i might get lyr2.
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, I'm not worried. I know it's good I'm just wondering aloud how much it improves with the 6SN7's.


----------



## DavidA

solrighal said:


> Yeah, I'm not worried. I know it's good I'm just wondering aloud how much it improves with the 6SN7's.


 

 Give me a few weeks to work on girlfriend, she wants a Ember for herself so I might be able to order a second one with the supercharger and adapter for me and give her the old one.
  
@Zorrofox, let me know how your Ember is with 6SN7's and did you mod your top cover to fit the larger tubes?


----------



## Solrighal

I haven't actually got my Ember yet I'm afraid. Soon though. 

As far as the top plate is concerned all the new aluminium ones are already cut for the larger valves (34mm I think, but don't quote me).


----------



## ericr

redbull said:


> ...I don't blame the amp as it is not designed to drive an iem, i was trying just for fun....




Actually the Ember is excellent with IEMs, especially the ever more common multi-balanced armature IEMs which can suffer from some pretty wild swings in impedance across the frequency spectrum.

A lower gain tubes (12AU7, 12BH7, 6CG7 or a 6SN7 with the new adapter from Garage1217 will go a long way to solving the issues you mention.

Also, if you'll be working with sensitive / low impedance IEMs regularly you can ask Jeremy to do the 1K resistor mod for you which drops the low gain setting


----------



## RedBull

Thanks eric, i guess that's the way, use quieter tubes like 12au7. 
Don't worry, i don't like to use iem, it irritates my ear lobes after awhile, i just try out of curiosity.


----------



## jaxz

Hi. I just place an order for Ember 2.0 and 6SN7 adapter. For now i have just a few 12AU7 tubes and one 12AT7 from/for EF-5 amp. The tube rolling will start shortly.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## DavidA

jaxz said:


> Hi. I just place an order for Ember 2.0 and 6SN7 adapter. For now i have just a few 12AU7 tubes and one 12AT7 from/for EF-5 amp. The tube rolling will start shortly.
> 
> Cheers!


 

 Hope you enjoy it as much as I have.  I found it great with the ability to change the output impedance to match your headphones.


----------



## jaxz

davida said:


> Hope you enjoy it as much as I have.  I found it great with the ability to change the output impedance to match your headphones.


 
 Yeah. I'm really liking the Ember versatility (on paper). With the EF5 the tube rolling only make very subtle sound changes at best case. That's why i stopped buying tubes for that amp. Will see how Ember perform with different tubes. The autobias, supercharger, selectable output impedance functions looks promising.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Solrighal

Here's my Project Ember Mk2 with a Sylvania 6SN7GTA in place & the only other valves I have in the foreground, a National Union 6SN7GT & a JJ ECC82..


----------



## jaxz

Very nice looking. I'm waiting for Jeremy to ship mine. May i ask wich vol pot in that?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Solrighal

jaxz said:


> Very nice looking. I'm waiting for Jeremy to ship mine. May i ask wich vol pot in that?
> 
> Thanks!




I was expecting this question. The pot itself is the stock one but the knob was sourced from here.. 

http://www.satopartsusa.com/prod_detail/default.cfm?sku=P2K4M5&title=K-52-KE-1%20Metal%20Knob


----------



## jaxz

solrighal said:


> I was expecting this question. The pot itself is the stock one but the knob was sourced from here..
> 
> http://www.satopartsusa.com/prod_detail/default.cfm?sku=P2K4M5&title=K-52-KE-1%20Metal%20Knob




Thank you. That knob looks very nice. How much was the shipping? I was told by Jeremy that he will ship my Ember yesterday but I didn't get any reply from him. I guess he is very busy man. 

BTW, I been following the Ember thread in diyah.

Cheers!


----------



## Solrighal

Since I knew Jeremy relatively well from another forum I asked him to order it for me & fit it too. Luckily he did because unfortunately it's not a straight fit. The diameter is a bit too big for the Ember so the chassis had to be adapted for it to fit. 

There are other options though. Audio note have several knobs in various sizes & finishes. I know of at least one person who has successfully retro-fitted one. They're not cheap though.


----------



## jaxz

Yeah. I read that forum. If I recall correctly Ian bought a golden knob that worked without issues?


----------



## Solrighal

jaxz said:


> Yeah. I read that forum. If I recall correctly Ian bought a golden knob that worked without issues?




Yeah, that's the one. There are many options to be honest & it all comes down to taste in the end.


----------



## btrancho

solrighal said:


> Since I knew Jeremy relatively well from another forum I asked him to order it for me & fit it too. Luckily he did because unfortunately it's not a straight fit. The diameter is a bit too big for the Ember so the chassis had to be adapted for it to fit.
> 
> There are other options though. Audio note have several knobs in various sizes & finishes. I know of at least one person who has successfully retro-fitted one. They're not cheap though.


 
 That knob fits fine on my Ember with the Supercharger installed.  The Supercharger requires slightly longer standoffs which helps.  You also need to make sure not to install the knob too far back on the shaft or it will scrape the lower chassis.  Otherwise it's a 30 second retrofit.


----------



## jaxz

With the Ember 2.0 the supercharger is stock configuration, so the height will be raised compared to older version?

Nice pictures!


----------



## btrancho

jaxz said:


> With the Ember 2.0 the supercharger is stock configuration, so the height will be raised compared to older version?
> 
> Nice pictures!


 
 Probably not but check with Jeremy to be sure.  The integrated Supercharger is built right into the circuit board.  The retrofit has to stand over some small capacitors and needs an extra 1/4" or so.  I'd assume that the v 2.0 is the same height as the original Ember w/o the taller standoffs that come with the retrofit.
  
 Since the chassis extends out the same top and bottom near the volume pot, it's really just a matter of mounting the knob not too far back on the shaft so that it doesn't hit the chassis. No modification of the chassis should be need in either case.  All I did was make sure that I tightened the hex screws while the knob had about 1 mm clearance.  It works smooth as silk and the larger diameter gives better fine control.
  
 Again, to be sure check with Jeremy first.  He is very helpful and has seen and mounted this knob.


----------



## jaxz

btrancho said:


> Probably not but check with Jeremy to be sure.  The integrated Supercharger is built right into the circuit board.  The retrofit has to stand over some small capacitors and needs an extra 1/4" or so.  I'd assume that the v 2.0 is the same height as the original Ember w/o the taller standoffs that come with the retrofit.
> 
> Since the chassis extends out the same top and bottom near the volume pot, it's really just a matter of mounting the knob not too far back on the shaft so that it doesn't hit the chassis. No modification of the chassis should be need in either case.  All I did was make sure that I tightened the hex screws while the knob had about 1 mm clearance.  It works smooth as silk and the larger diameter gives better fine control.
> 
> Again, to be sure check with Jeremy first.  He is very helpful and has seen and mounted this knob.




Thanks for your detailed answer. Already emailed Jeremy about the knob. Hopefully, he can do the job, I mean, I know he can. He's the man!


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello guys, I was just about to buy a Little Dot MK 3 or 4 tube amp, then I read another post about this Ember. Maybe somebody can help sway me if you could answer any of these questions:
  
 How does the general sound signature compare on the Ember to the Little Dot (in what ways)? Since this only has 1 tube which is thicker, does this actually give comparable performance to the two tubes that the other one uses? Also how do you change the gain setting? (I looked carefully at many photos and never saw where the gain switch is).
  
 If everything seems to line up then I'll start researching about tubes for this too. Thanks!


----------



## RedBull

I can't answer for the comparison, but you have to open the top cover to change the gain setting. It is a jumper.

Also interested for the comparison with LD amp.


----------



## Solrighal

decentlevi said:


> Hello guys, I was just about to buy a Little Dot MK 3 or 4 tube amp, then I read another post about this Ember. Maybe somebody can help sway me if you could answer any of these questions:
> 
> How does the general sound signature compare on the Ember to the Little Dot (in what ways)? Since this only has 1 tube which is thicker, does this actually give comparable performance to the two tubes that the other one uses? Also how do you change the gain setting? (I looked carefully at many photos and never saw where the gain switch is).
> 
> If everything seems to line up then I'll start researching about tubes for this too. Thanks!


 
  
 Project Ember manuals can be found here..
  
 http://www.garage1217.com/MANUALS/EMBER%20MANUALS/


----------



## MrWalrus

Hi there, I am new to the forum but have been a lurker for a while now. I wanted to ask if anyone feels it's worth the extra cost and effort to get balanced and matched triodes for tubes for the Ember? I'm thinking it may help since the amp is only using one tube but I'm not quite sure. Any experience and input is appreciated. Thank you! 
Kind Regards, 
Jason


----------



## rmouser

solrighal said:


> decentlevi said:
> 
> 
> > Hello guys, I was just about to buy a Little Dot MK 3 or 4 tube amp, then I read another post about this Ember. Maybe somebody can help sway me if you could answer any of these questions:
> ...


 
 I have done the LD3 and Ember side by side and sold the LD3 later as it got little play time. The LD3 is a terrific amp in its own right. It has a warm, rich sound.
  
 The reasons the Ember stayed:
  
 Much more power
 Can play phones from 32 ohm to 600 with authority. LD3 cannot go below 300 ohm.
 Tube rolling:
           One tube--less $$
            6 and 12 volt tubes
            Auto bias--huge selection
            Can handle heater currents over 1 amp
 Less heat due to SS outputs
 Made in USA--customer service second to none
 Selectable gain, output resistance, input attenuation
 Lighter weight--smaller footprint
 Incredible sound
 Schematic available
  
 That's all I can think of for now--I'm at work


----------



## Solrighal

rmouser said:


> I have done the LD3 and Ember side by side and sold the LD3 later as it got little play time. The LD3 is a terrific amp in its own right. It has a warm, rich sound.
> 
> The reasons the Ember stayed:
> 
> ...


 
  
 ^ What he said. All of it. ^


----------



## DecentLevi

+1 for @rmouser - your real-world findings seems to match all the research I've found on the Ember 2 versus Little Dot 3/4 online... I dare you to post that message above on the Little Dot Tube Rolling thread LOL! Anyway I'll have to wait until June to afford the new Ember 2.
  
 PS- does auto bias mean auto detection / compensation for of how many ohms the headphone has? That's my best guess


----------



## DavidA

decentlevi said:


> +1 for @rmouser - your real-world findings seems to match all the research I've found on the Ember 2 versus Little Dot 3/4 online... I dare you to post that message above on the Little Dot Tube Rolling thread LOL! Anyway I'll have to wait until June to afford the new Ember 2.
> 
> PS- does auto bias mean auto detection / compensation for of how many ohms the headphone has? That's my best guess


 

 Auto bias is for the voltage to the tube.  For the other Garage 1217 amps you need to adjust the bias manually.
  
 The output resistance/impedance (ohms) is adjusted by moving jumpers on both sides of the ember and a few of the other Garage 1217 amps.


----------



## Solrighal

It also allows you the option of by-passing the input capacitors by moving another pair of jumpers.
  
 The Mk1 allowed this too but it resulted in a scratchy volume pot. That's been fixed in the Mk2 model.


----------



## money4me247

decentlevi said:


> +1 for @rmouser - your real-world findings seems to match all the research I've found on the Ember 2 versus Little Dot 3/4 online... I dare you to post that message above on the Little Dot Tube Rolling thread LOL! Anyway I'll have to wait until June to afford the new Ember 2.
> 
> PS- does auto bias mean auto detection / compensation for of how many ohms the headphone has? That's my best guess


 
 It is generally not wise to go out of your way posting on alternative equipment threads that you personally find something else to be superior. ...often results in heated arguments and subsequent moderator action. this hobby is pretty personal and subjective, so different people find different things better suited for their needs. people deciding between equipment just need to do their own due diligence and research from both threads to get a good sense of what fits them the best.
  
 auto bias is related to adjusting for the tubes used, not the headphones. Quote from Project Ember's website: "auto bias, be able to change heater voltages by simply plugging in a tube AND let you roll in a very wide range of dual triodes."
 http://www.garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_004.htm


----------



## merlot

Is the 6SN7 adapter still applicable to the version 2 ember?  In the pull down it only references Ember 1


----------



## Solrighal

merlot said:


> Is the 6SN7 adapter still applicable to the version 2 ember?  In the pull down it only references Ember 1


 
  
 Yes, it still needs to be bought separately but the same adapter fits both Mk1 & Mk2.


----------



## jbarrentine

I'm confused by something being newish to hifi: What is the whole deal with the Ember not being a "real" tube amp, and being a hybrid? What's the technical difference in how a "real" tube amp works and how Ember works? Is one of these methods fundamentally better? People seem awful happy with ember for it being a hybrid, and I wondered what potentially would be missed out on by using Ember and not something else. 
  
 I'm carefully considering this upgrade. Please excuse the ignorance, my questions aren't meant to be offensive.


----------



## Asr

jbarrentine said:


> I'm confused by something being newish to hifi: What is the whole deal with the Ember not being a "real" tube amp, and being a hybrid? What's the technical difference in how a "real" tube amp works and how Ember works? Is one of these methods fundamentally better? People seem awful happy with ember for it being a hybrid, and I wondered what potentially would be missed out on by using Ember and not something else.
> I'm carefully considering this upgrade. Please excuse the ignorance, my questions aren't meant to be offensive.


 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/482283/tube-amp-vs-solid-state-amp-vs-hybrid-amp
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/481847/solid-state-vs-tubes-which-one-s-and-why-plus-more


----------



## money4me247

jbarrentine said:


> I'm confused by something being newish to hifi: What is the whole deal with the Ember not being a "real" tube amp, and being a hybrid? What's the technical difference in how a "real" tube amp works and how Ember works? Is one of these methods fundamentally better? People seem awful happy with ember for it being a hybrid, and I wondered what potentially would be missed out on by using Ember and not something else.
> 
> I'm carefully considering this upgrade. Please excuse the ignorance, my questions aren't meant to be offensive.


 
 I think people usually talking about a 'real tube' amp are talking about output transformerless (OTL) tube amplifier. those amplifier are generally best suited for high impedance headphones. hybrid amplifiers use tubes with ss output. I don't think there is really any sound quality characteristics specific to the type of tube amplifier (hybrid or OTL). There are well-implemented hybrids and well-implemented OTLs as well as poorly implemented hybrids & poorly implemented OTLs. I would be wary of people making broad statements about quality simply based on the type of amplifier.


----------



## richard51

money4me247 said:


> I think people usually talking about a 'real tube' amp are talking about output transformerless (OTL) tube amplifier. those amplifier are generally best suited for high impedance headphones. hybrid amplifiers use tubes with ss output. I don't think there is really any sound quality characteristics specific to the type of tube amplifier (hybrid or OTL). There are well-implemented hybrids and well-implemented OTLs as well as poorly implemented hybrids & poorly implemented OTLs. I would be wary of people making broad statements about quality simply based on the type of amplifier.


 

 i think you are probably right.....i dont say certainly mainly because i am not a pro audiophile


----------



## Solrighal

money4me247 said:


> I think people usually talking about a 'real tube' amp are talking about output transformerless (OTL) tube amplifier. those amplifier are generally best suited for high impedance headphones. hybrid amplifiers use tubes with ss output. I don't think there is really any sound quality characteristics specific to the type of tube amplifier (hybrid or OTL). There are well-implemented hybrids and well-implemented OTLs as well as poorly implemented hybrids & poorly implemented OTLs. I would be wary of people making broad statements about quality simply based on the type of amplifier.


 
  
 +1


----------



## TheTodd

Hello everyone. Ive had my Ember for awhile now and love it. Ive been using it with my V-Moda M100's and I tihnk they pair very nicely.  I have however just upgraded my CANs a bit to the Fostex TH900's.  I have dabled a bit into to tube rolling. Ive got the stock one that came with it and an AMPEREX BUGLE BOY 6DJ8 and Telefunken 12AT7.  Now ive only had my TH900's for a few days now but so far i like them paired with my 6DJ8 the best.  It seems to tone the Highs down a bit and lift the Mids while still maintaining quality unmuddy lows 
  
 I was just wondering if anyone else has had any experience with TH900's and this amp? Just wanted a few opinions on maybe some other tubes to try out.  My Ember does have the supercharger and i do have the adaptor for the 6SN7 in case I ever decided to get one which I may do anyways.
  
 thank you all in advanced


----------



## Solrighal

Hi Todd,
  
 You want to talk to @iancraig10.


----------



## DavidA

thetodd said:


> Hello everyone. Ive had my Ember for awhile now and love it. Ive been using it with my V-Moda M100's and I tihnk they pair very nicely.  I have however just upgraded my CANs a bit to the Fostex TH900's.  I have dabled a bit into to tube rolling. Ive got the stock one that came with it and an AMPEREX BUGLE BOY 6DJ8 and Telefunken 12AT7.  Now ive only had my TH900's for a few days now but so far i like them paired with my 6DJ8 the best.  It seems to tone the Highs down a bit and lift the Mids while still maintaining quality unmuddy lows
> 
> I was just wondering if anyone else has had any experience with TH900's and this amp? Just wanted a few opinions on maybe some other tubes to try out.  My Ember does have the supercharger and i do have the adaptor for the 6SN7 in case I ever decided to get one which I may do anyways.
> 
> thank you all in advanced


 

 Hi Todd,
 I have a TH-600 and its a good match with the Ember (ver 1).  I use a Mullard 12AX7, great bass extension, smooth mids and highs.  I know some say the 12AX7 can be noisy but mine seems fine.


----------



## TheTodd

Thank you guys  I will check that tube out. Tube rolling is getting addicting lol. Trying to find that golden tube that sounds best for the set up you have.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi again folks, I read that the Ember has an optional function as a "volume controlled tube buffer". I wasn't sure what this meant, but after a little research I came across the ifi Micro which seems to have the same functionality as that. The description interested me because it seems to act as a preamp between my DAC and headphone amp, also providing the much needed feature of reducing digital harshness and listening fatigue, which is something I have been 'suffering from' because of harsh highs with my current amp setup. So the question is; for the time that I'm not using the Ember as an amp, will it work well as a preamp - using the tubes and reducing digital harshness into my main headphone amp? That is, using its' RCA line out to my main amp. THANKS!


----------



## DecentLevi

Also does anybody have any recommendations for a tube that may work well for me with this? One that provides a sound signature with smooth, non harsh highs - and maybe slightly warm as well. Also the recent inactivity on this thread has got me wandering what's going on with this? Is the Ember already becoming obsolete, or are all the current owners wallowing in its pure bliss and don't desire to change anything on it?


----------



## money4me247

decentlevi said:


> Also does anybody have any recommendations for a tube that may work well for me with this? One that provides a sound signature with smooth, non harsh highs - and maybe slightly warm as well. Also the recent inactivity on this thread has got me wandering what's going on with this? Is the Ember already becoming obsolete, or is everybody wallowing in its pure bliss and don't desire to change anything?


 
 lol the ember isn't becoming obsolete... (though technically tube technology already turned obsolete' in the 50-60s with more widespread usage of solid-state devices featuring things like transistors). tube rolling on this device has been explored quite in-depth already. PM some of the more frequent members to this thread if you are in a rush or have specific questions. Or try searching through the thread.
  
 You may also find really helpful advice just asking Jeremy at Garage1217 what he recommends for your needs. hope this helps.


----------



## DavidA

decentlevi said:


> Also does anybody have any recommendations for a tube that may work well for me with this? One that provides a sound signature with smooth, non harsh highs - and maybe slightly warm as well. Also the recent inactivity on this thread has got me wandering what's going on with this? Is the Ember already becoming obsolete, or are all the current owners wallowing in its pure bliss and don't desire to change anything on it?


 
 Best I found for smoothing out the highs for my HD-700 was 12AX7 Telefunken or 12AX7 Mullard reissue.  Some have said that 12AX7 tubes are noisy but so far I've been lucky,


----------



## Solrighal

I have the Ember output going to my stereo integrated amp for my speakers. It mellows the sound quite nicely. 

I can't see any advantage in outputting from the Ember to yet another headphone amp though. The Ember already has more than enough power for the vast majority of headphones. 

As to smooth valves - I pretty much exclusively use the additional adapter which allows the use of 6SN7 valves. The smoothest of those I've heard so far is the Sylvania 6SN7GTA 'Chrome Dome'. It has a beautifully lush sound & has become my daily driver. 

I suspect the reason this thread is so quiet is exactly as you say, we're in a state of bliss. At least, I am.


----------



## richard51

solrighal said:


> I have the Ember output going to my stereo integrated amp for my speakers. It mellows the sound quite nicely.
> 
> I can't see any advantage in outputting from the Ember to yet another headphone amp though. The Ember already has more than enough power for the vast majority of headphones.
> 
> ...


 





 blissful state here...... i use the Ember like a pre amp for my he 400 paired with the speakers amplifier of the monsoon planars ....  pre amp to planars or he 400 the EmBer is marvellous... There is no unique sound of the Ember like other amps.... I own a Ember for more than one year now and the sound change very strongly with change of tube .... I prefer using it now like a pre amp tube with the volume more higher than the volume of my amp to benefit from the tube sound more...i Think that by design the possibility to use so more tube families with ease for tweaking the sound is marvellous...For me now  its not only an amp it is  more a pre amp kameleon.... I wait for the 7193 tubes adapter .....I am sure that it will be a revolution in my sound like the 6sn7 family has been  by comparison with the 12au7 family and others 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Hence i changed three times of amp in changing three times my family tubes.....What amp less than 1 thousand dollars had much possibilities.....Amp are important but better to invest money in the speakers , earphone, or dac...the cost of the Ember is so good that you may compared it to higher costly amp....think that if you had speakers and many headphones its difficult to give much possibilities of transformation with quality sound....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 its easy to have a incredible sound if you are rich....by the egoista amp for exemple its impossible to made errors with big money....the sound will always be extraordinary......If you are poor the Ember is the choice.....low cost high end  sound possibilities and many use....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 an important remark :  very few people had listen to the potential of the Ember sound, for example i had not listen to a big part of his potential before i had listen to the 6ns7 family tube.... Now i am pretty sure that the potential will be more audible with the 7193 tubes ( i had discover 9 unanimous review of this tube sound relatively to the 6ns7) Remember that the 6ns7 sound was by far superior to the standard tubes used without this adapter... in one word all review of the ember versus an other amp are of no signification for me if the reviewer  use standard tube...there is almost no  official review of the ember with the 6sn7 tube... an not one with the 7193 also....there are only some blissful customers who wrote their praise here  or there....


----------



## rmouser

solrighal said:


> rmouser said:
> 
> 
> > I have done the LD3 and Ember side by side and sold the LD3 later as it got little play time. The LD3 is a terrific amp in its own right. It has a warm, rich sound.
> ...


 

 Hello Ember Rollers,
  
 I'm back in circulation--I included a pic of my tube rolling rig. The 6SN7 stays in the EMBER--it does sound a little better--possibly due to the 48 volt power supply. It gets more play time than the Sunrise due to the 6SN7 which is the best tube I own.
  
 The Sunrise is the first amp I built so it stays forever. The pic has a Russian 6H6N tube in it--the highest heater current tube I own--750 milliamp. I like rolling with it since I can vary the bias voltage to hear the effects of different voltages. I use a digital voltage meter, not the LEDs, for that.
  
 To date my favorites in the Sunrise are: Amperex 6DJ8 (best of the "non 6SN7" / Amperex 6201 (12AT7) / Philco 12BH7 / Sylvania 5751 (This has a gain of 70--tamer than a 12AX7 I have--both very robust sounding--closest to solid state sound)
  
 All of these comparisons were done with Grados as they are the easiest to drive compared to my K702 and DT880. How they sound with these tubes is another post. I used the Grados (SR80 bass modded / Sr80i extreme mods--the only stock thing is the headband/ RS2i) so as to allow maximum headroom with no effort.
  
 Music sources are PC USB Music Streamer II (MP3 and WAV) and Cambridge CD player being fed into a 31 band hardware equalizer. All tubes are driven by the same EQ settings. I like my music with PUNCH--plus I can clean up the MP3s a lot. Yeah, I know MP3, but that is so I can play songs that can't be found otherwise by download.
  
 All of the "Sunrise tubes of course sound better in the Ember!


----------



## jaywillin

rmouser said:


> Hello Ember Rollers,
> 
> I'm back in circulation--I included a pic of my tube rolling rig. The 6SN7 stays in the EMBER--it does sound a little better--possibly due to the 48 volt power supply. It gets more play time than the Sunrise due to the 6SN7 which is the best tube I own.
> 
> ...


 
 great to you see again ron !
  
 after having gone way up in price bracket, i now am coming back to real word priced gear
 and trying to decide which of the garage amps to get, i'm leaning toward the ember, and i love that you 
 can use a 6sn7


----------



## rmouser

Great to be back! You can order the Ember and the RCA gray tube at the same time. Be sure to order the correct chassis plate. You will save a lot of $$$ in tube rolling by starting at the top, however the rolling experience is worth the $$$.
  
 By starting with the 6SN7, you will have a great baseline reference point.


----------



## jaywillin

rmouser said:


> Great to be back! You can order the Ember and the RCA gray tube at the same time. Be sure to order the correct chassis plate. You will save a lot of $$$ in tube rolling by starting at the top, however the rolling experience is worth the $$$.
> 
> By starting with the 6SN7, you will have a great baseline reference point.


 
 i've had a few tube amps, two little dots, the lyr several times, and a couple of amps from woo, and i've spent some $$$ on tubes before
 as for the chassis plate, you mean to accommodate the adapter for the 6sn7 i'm guessing ?


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello @richard51 you were talking about 7193 in your post on the last page. Did you mean there is an adapter for 7193 type of tubes? And does the Ember v2 already come with this? But then you seemed to be mentioning about positive reviews of a specific 7193 tube? Or was this about the type of tubes? Thanks again


----------



## rmouser

jaywillin said:


> rmouser said:
> 
> 
> > Great to be back! You can order the Ember and the RCA gray tube at the same time. Be sure to order the correct chassis plate. You will save a lot of $$$ in tube rolling by starting at the top, however the rolling experience is worth the $$$.
> ...


 

 Hi!
  
 Yes. The aluminum plate has the larger tube hole to accommodate the adapter.
  
 Isn't tube rolling grand?


----------



## jaywillin

rmouser said:


> Hi!
> 
> Yes. The aluminum plate has the larger tube hole to accommodate the adapter.
> 
> Isn't tube rolling grand?


 
 a little habit forming for sure, but worth the effort, a nice tube goes a long way


----------



## richard51

decentlevi said:


> Hello @richard51 you were talking about 7193 in your post on the last page. Did you mean there is an adapter for 7193 type of tubes? And does the Ember v2 already come with this? But then you seemed to be mentioning about positive reviews of a specific 7193 tube? Or was this about the type of tubes? Thanks again


 
 sorry for my late response to you.....yes there is an adapter to 6sn7 tube sold by garage 1217 ...For 7193 tubes you must order it in china if you are interested i will indicated you where is the best one....The 2 adapter are necessary to accomodate the 7193 tubes....I have ordered the chineese adapter (6ns7 pins to 7193 pins) without personal experience of the sound because i had read many review on the net and without exception they say that the 7193 tubes are better...The 6 sn7 tube are already better than all my bugle boy or amperex tube ( normal fit on the ember without adapter)....I am looking forward to try.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 p.s. The review say that all family 7193 tubes are good....no1 Kenrad... No2 national union...no3 rca...difference are supposed to be not very important but there... i had purchase 2 ken rad with some national unions one


----------



## ericr

@richard51

Looking forward to your report on how this works out!


----------



## Amish

Without having to read through the entire thread. Are there a couple of 6sn7 tubes I should look for? I have a Sylvania 6sn7 on the way. I don't know much about it except that Jeremy stated, "You'll be pleased."
  
 That works for me but I'd like to try one or two others and tbh I don't care about looking for a certain sound. one or three tubes or so...all different sounding would be great to me.
  
 I see from reading up on this tube that Sylvania is pretty popular. Any others?
  
 I also came across some nicely shaped tube bottles such as the following:
  
 Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z: http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6SN7-Tube-Types/Shuguang-Treasure-CV181-Z
 Northern Electric 6sn7: http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6SN7-Tube-Types/Northern-Electric-6SN7
 Sophia Electric 6sn7: http://www.sophiaelectric.com/pages/se/6sn7.htm
  
 Not sure if any of the above are good or not. They look pretty cool but I'll take sq over looks any day.
  
 Any input on any of those tubes? Or recommend another tube?
  
 Thanks


----------



## connieflyer

I would wait and see if you like the Sylvania.  They are good sounding tubes, getting it from Jeremy , you know it will be a good one.  I bought a Ken Rad vt231 from him and a Sylvania chrome top.  The Sylvania is  a great tube, use that alot to conserve the Ken Rad.   Recently tried the 7193 tubes, they are single triodes, require an adapter and they are a blast.  I was lucky enough to get a matched pair of Ken Rad's from 1942 and they sound awesome.  I would not spend the kind of money on the tubes you listed.  If you have some extra cash (after you listen to the Sylvania for awhile) you can try this...


----------



## Amish

Wow. You have me interested. Where can i see this adapter? I take it you need an adapter and board with two sockets? Or is the entire thing one big adapter? Very interested in learning more about that.
  
 Yeah I agree about the cost of those tubes above but I wouldn't buy them new anyway. I'd wait and find a deal somewhere.


----------



## heliosphann

Can someone recommend me some good 12au7 tubes for my Solstice??? Thx.


----------



## connieflyer

amish said:


> Wow. You have me interested. Where can i see this adapter? I take it you need an adapter and board with two sockets? Or is the entire thing one big adapter? Very interested in learning more about that.
> 
> Yeah I agree about the cost of those tubes above but I wouldn't buy them new anyway. I'd wait and find a deal somewhere.


 

 The recommended one is here......http://www.ebay.com/itm/191551519526?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT  it only took about 8 days to get to Michigan from China.  Nice quality and the leads are marked.  You might also want to follow this thread for more info you can start on this page, it is JGlatz that started this build.....http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember?page=77.  Join up lots of good info and solderdude is a great electronics wiz and Jeremy also frequents, lots of other forums there as well.  As far as the tubes I would go for the Ken Rads, try to get them a close match.  Need a pair.  Good luck


----------



## Amish

connieflyer said:


> The recommended one is here......http://www.ebay.com/itm/191551519526?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT  it only took about 8 days to get to Michigan from China.  Nice quality and the leads are marked.  You might also want to follow this thread for more info you can start on this page, it is JGlatz that started this build.....http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember?page=77.  Join up lots of good info and solderdude is a great electronics wiz and Jeremy also frequents, lots of other forums there as well.  As far as the tubes I would go for the Ken Rads, try to get them a close match.  Need a pair.  Good luck


 

 Cool thanks. Ive been a member there for a little while actually. Will stop by.


----------



## Amish

heliosphann said:


> Can someone recommend me some good 12au7 tubes for my Solstice??? Thx.


 
  
 I have several 12au7 tubes. Of them I like the Westinghouse black plates. Pretty mellow tubes. In fact I think all 12au7 tubes tend to be on the mellow side. Just smooth through the entire FR. I actually prefer the higher gain of the 12AT and 12AX tubes. More sparkly highs, tighter deeper bass, fantastic mids. (depending on tubes of course.) My preferred brands are Amperex, and Telefunken 1950's through early 1960's.


----------



## DavidA

amish said:


> I have several 12au7 tubes. Of them I like the Westinghouse black plates. Pretty mellow tubes. In fact I think all 12au7 tubes tend to be on the mellow side. Just smooth through the entire FR. I actually prefer the higher gain of the 12AT and 12AX tubes. More sparkly highs, tighter deeper bass, fantastic mids. (depending on tubes of course.) My preferred brands are Amperex, and Telefunken 1950's through early 1960's.


 
 I've had similar experience with the 12AU7 and 12AX7 tubes.  I tried and liked some of the new tubes being produced, Tung-sol, Electro Harmonix, and Gold Lion.  Still haven't gotten the adapter for rolling 6SN7 tubes so I can't comment on those.


----------



## Amish

davida said:


> I've had similar experience with the 12AU7 and 12AX7 tubes.  I tried and liked some of the new tubes being produced, Tung-sol, Electro Harmonix, and Gold Lion.  Still haven't gotten the adapter for rolling 6SN7 tubes so I can't comment on those.


 

 I have not tried the 6sn7 tube yet either but I have one on the way and really look forward to hearing it on Saturday.


----------



## connieflyer

amish said:


> Cool thanks. Ive been a member there for a little while actually. Will stop by.


 

 Thought the name was familiar, so many names, so many forums, soooooo old, sorry!


----------



## Amish

connieflyer said:


> Thought the name was familiar, so many names, so many forums, soooooo old, sorry!


 
  
 If it is familiar its from this site. 
  
 Over there I am WhiteNoise
  
 I have a number of posts there but I spend more time reading then getting involved. So much good info.


----------



## Amish

My 6SN7 came in today and I have to admit I'm pretty impressed. It's not as lush as some of my vintage Telefunken tubes and isn't quite sharp on both ends of the FR as my vintage Amperex tubes BUT and this is a BIG BUT...it's more open. It is more spacious sounding than my other tubes and it's pretty damn clean. What I wasn't expecting is how good the bass is. Really deep, tight and dips lower than many tubes I have heard. My Bugle Boy's hit like this but the 6SN7 has more meat to the bass. Mids are not up front but really good. Highs are clear and sparkly to an extent with maybe a bit of roll off. Not a bright tube at all but close. This is where the bugle boys gets it right in my book.
  
 Anyways this Sylvania 6SN7 is a winner. I want to pick up a Ken Rad tube just to hear it and compare but I would be happy with this Sylvania.


----------



## jazzmanmoe

just got a Brimar any one else have one


----------



## DecentLevi

amish said:


> My 6SN7 came in today and I have to admit I'm pretty impressed. It's not as lush as some of my vintage Telefunken tubes and isn't quite sharp on both ends of the FR as my vintage Amperex tubes BUT and this is a BIG BUT...it's more open. It is more spacious sounding than my other tubes and it's pretty damn clean. What I wasn't expecting is how good the bass is. Really deep, tight and dips lower than many tubes I have heard. My Bugle Boy's hit like this but the 6SN7 has more meat to the bass. Mids are not up front but really good. Highs are clear and sparkly to an extent with maybe a bit of roll off. Not a bright tube at all but close. This is where the bugle boys gets it right in my book.
> 
> Anyways this Sylvania 6SN7 is a winner. I want to pick up a Ken Rad tube just to hear it and compare but I would be happy with this Sylvania.


 
  
 OK so let me see if I got this right. You're comparing 4 tubes - all of them the regular size for the Ember, and one being the 6SN7 type.
  
 - Sylvania 6SN7: wider soundstage and more air to the treble. Clean and clear with deep, tight & full bodied bass, but
                          recessed mids and treble roll off.
 - Telefunken:       more lush than the Sylvania 6SN7
 - Amperex:          sharper on both ends of the FR than Sylvania 6SN7
 - Bugle Boy:        impactful bass, extended & organic treble.
  
 To me it sounds like a possible case of new product jitters or whatever that's called, where you want to find a reason your new product is superior to justify the purchase - and as if just maybe, if you do a blind test, then perhaps you would be happier with the Bugle Boy... but that's all based off your review and from not having tried these yet. That would be interesting to hear another comparison between those two. Also, which type of Sylvania 6SN7, and which type of Bugle Boy was that? (the 6DJ8 maybe)? thanks man


----------



## Amish

decentlevi said:


> OK so let me see if I got this right. You're comparing 4 tubes - all of them the regular size for the Ember, and one being the 6SN7 type.
> 
> - Sylvania 6SN7: wider soundstage and more air to the treble. Clean and clear with deep, tight & full bodied bass, but
> recessed mids and treble roll off.
> ...


 
  
  New product jitters? I was just trying to explain what I hear when listening to the 6sn7. I didn't see anywhere in my post where I was saying it is the best tube in my collection. Just that I'm impressed with it. I have many more than 4 tubes. and of all the tubes I own there is a few that really stand out. Favorite tube? I have two; a 1964 bugle boy 12AX and a telefunken 12AT. I think you are saying above that I'd be happier with the bugle boy even though I have not tried it yet? That statement confuses me a bit. I have several bugle boy tubes.
  
 I might also mention that of all the tubes I own (below in screen shot) There are more than a few that I do not like all that much, some others I find good but nothing special, and then a select handful that really blow me away. Keep in mind that each time I have bought a tube I have not always been happy and so I can asure you that I don't feel the need to justify any purchase.
  
 In my post above I was talking about 3 tubes including the 6sn7. When I said bugle boy and then said Amperex I was talking about the same tube, as Amperex makes the bugle boy.
  
 I've been rolling tubes for a long time now and think I have a pretty good handle on how each one sounds to me.
  
 Honestly I'm not sure how to take your post. Can't tell if I'm being insulted or not. I don't find the 6sn7 to be superior to anything. It's just a good sounding tube. Pretty impressed with it too.
  
 I have three 6sn7 tubes now.
  
 To answer your question though I was using a 1960's Sylvania 6SN7GTB that I bought off Jeremy for $20 when I posted about the 6sn7.


----------



## connieflyer

Nice selection of tubes Amish, I was wondering the same thing about him, thought maybe he was just a troll


----------



## DavidA

@Amish, nice tube selection.  What do you think of the Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 in the Ember?  I tried some of my 6DJ8 tubes for my Lyr2 in the Ember and they were a mixed bag.  I have 2 pairs of Amperex Bugle Boy's, Holland, gold pins, which are really good in the Lyr2 but not that great in the Ember.


----------



## Amish

davida said:


> @Amish, nice tube selection.  What do you think of the Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 in the Ember?  I tried some of my 6DJ8 tubes for my Lyr2 in the Ember and they were a mixed bag.  I have 2 pairs of Amperex Bugle Boy's, Holland, gold pins, which are really good in the Lyr2 but not that great in the Ember.


 
  
 I'm honestly not a big fan of the 6DJ8 tube. Let me explain though. I really like the higher gain from the 12AT and 12AX tubes so I tend to prefer those. The bugle boy 6DJ8 sounds really really good. In fact I would put it against my other bugle boys and SQ wise they are about equal. They sound quite a bit alike, only the 12AX gets louder. I guess thats the best way to describe it.
  
 Honestly this 6DJ8 is one of the very best tubes I own even though I rarely use it. It handles the entire FR very well, clean, really good tight bass, wonderful highs and mids that make me smile, BUT I can get that very same sound in one of my 12AX bugle boys. I will admit that the 6dj8 might be ever so slightly cleaner sounding due to the lower gain maybe? Not sure. Ultimately it works well in the Ember for me. Maybe I just got lucky or maybe my ears are tuned to liking that sound.


----------



## Amish

connieflyer said:


> Nice selection of tubes Amish, I was wondering the same thing about him, thought maybe he was just a troll


 
 Thanks dude.


----------



## DecentLevi

@Amish, I was just trying to paraphrase your review on those tubes to make sense out of your meaning because I thought you said you liked the Sylvania better than the others (you said "a winner" and I thought you meant it's "the winner"), despite the few shortcomings you mentioned compared to the others. Really I'm trying to figure out if the sonic performance from the upgrade of the 6SN7 adapter & its' extra expensive tubes is worth it or not compared to the 'normal' tubes of the Ember. 
  
 I'll save a note about your favorites so I can try them out later too; the 1964 bugle boy 12AX(7?) and the Telefunken 12AT. Was that the 12AT7 1959 that stood out, the lush sounding one?
  
Also if somebody doesn't mind, I'm curious: if there is a year next to to a tube name (1959, 1964, etc.) does this mean that was the year of manufacture, so that mostly these older ones would be all used, or are they still making these same tubes? Thanks much


----------



## Solrighal

The year refers to when they were manufactured. They may be used or they may be new old stock (NOS).
  
 6SN7 valves needn't be expensive mate. I got a few for not much money at all. Are they the very best? Probably not, but they're better than any 9-pin I've heard thus far.


----------



## Amish

@DecentLevi, I understand now. For the record my favorite Telefunken is the 1960 tube I own. It has a 3d sound I just love.
  
 When I said it's a winner I meant I liked it. Not all tube I buy make me happy.
  
 As for the year..those are the year of manufacture. They are no longer made.
  
 As for the 6sn7 adapter and 6sn7 tube...is it worth the upgrade? Well the adapter is only $24 and there are tons of 6sn7's on the market for cheap so yeah..worth it just for the ability to roll more tubes.
  
 Are the sonics better than tubes that can be run already without an adapter? I think that can only be answered by each user himself. I have plenty of tubes that I prefer over the 6sn7. The 6sn7 can in some cases provide a more open sound stage compared to my other tubes and for that reason I really enjoy the tube but it will depend on the tube you are using and ultimately the SQ to me has not improved any. Just more spaciousness in the music.
  
 Put it this way, if money is tight and you would have to upgrade your current Ember to the super charger as well as buy the adapter and tube then I would say that no it's not worth the money. You can find wonderfully sounding tubes for the Ember already.
  
 For me it is more that I enjoy tube rolling and the more options I have the more enjoyment I have.


----------



## richard51

a remark : for my ears not all 6sn7 sound the same..... No tube  in the same family  give the same performance compared to  an another tube in the same family... I think its particurlaly true of the 6sn7 family.....The result on your ears will vary in function of your gear and taste..... For me the 6sn7 was better than my amperex and bugle boy not in the absolute but for my gear and taste...


----------



## Amish

Well said Richard.
  
 I have two more 6sn7 tubes that I have not even listened to yet. I wonder if I will even hear a difference. Time will tell.


----------



## Solrighal

I've found the differences between the 6SN7's I have to be relatively subtle. What they do all have though, compared to the 9-pin's, is air. The sound is more spacious & it's easier (for me) to follow individual instruments on more complex music. Beck's Sea Change for instance. While it loses a little bit of it's intimacy when switching to the 6SN7 it gains in apparent detail. And although the sound has more space, the bass still has the same - if not more - authority as it does with the 9's.
  
 As ever though, YMMV.


----------



## richard51

i had the same feeling about the 6sn7, very well said zorrofox 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.....


----------



## Solrighal

richard51 said:


> i had the same feeling about the 6sn7, very well said zorrofox
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you Richard


----------



## DavidA

amish said:


> I'm honestly not a big fan of the 6DJ8 tube. Let me explain though. I really like the higher gain from the 12AT and 12AX tubes so I tend to prefer those. The bugle boy 6DJ8 sounds really really good. In fact I would put it against my other bugle boys and SQ wise they are about equal. They sound quite a bit alike, only the 12AX gets louder. I guess thats the best way to describe it.
> 
> Honestly this 6DJ8 is one of the very best tubes I own even though I rarely use it. It handles the entire FR very well, clean, really good tight bass, wonderful highs and mids that make me smile, BUT I can get that very same sound in one of my 12AX bugle boys. I will admit that the 6dj8 might be ever so slightly cleaner sounding due to the lower gain maybe? Not sure. Ultimately it works well in the Ember for me. Maybe I just got lucky or maybe my ears are tuned to liking that sound.


 
 +1, the gain on the 12XXX series is higher so you get a more useful range.  Also the 12XXX series is a lot cheaper than 6DJ8/6922 series from what I've seen so far.


----------



## ericr

Over the last few months I've bought 25+ tubes for my Ember and of the several 6SN7s I would call my favorites a couple are actually 6CG7s.  Electrically the 6CG7 is the same as the 6SN7 but in the smaller 9 pin bottle, meaning you can try out the 6SN7 sound without having to buy the adapter.  You want the 6CG7 with the shield between the plates and not the 6FQ7 (which is a newer design which doesn't have the shield). 
  
 The Tung-Sol black plates (often labeled GE or CBS) & Sylvania black plates with three holes & silver shield (often labeled Motorola) are pretty nice and can be found at reasonable prices.


----------



## DavidA

ericr said:


> Over the last few months I've bought 25+ tubes for my Ember and of the several 6SN7s I would call my favorites a couple are actually 6CG7s.  Electrically the 6CG7 is the same as the 6SN7 but in the smaller 9 pin bottle, meaning you can try out the 6SN7 sound without having to buy the adapter.  You want the 6CG7 with the shield between the plates and not the 6FQ7 (which is a newer design which doesn't have the shield).
> 
> The Tung-Sol black plates (often labeled GE or CBS) & Sylvania black plates with three holes & silver shield (often labeled Motorola) are pretty nice and can be found at reasonable prices.


 
 Thanks for the info, I guess I'll check out the 6CG7 tube


----------



## richard51

thanks for this marvellous Ember Jeremy and Frans, and thanks Glatz for your intro to 7193 tubes...... I have my adapter for the 7193 tubes and i must say that the difference on My speakers is evidently immediate.... The 7193 Ken-rad made them more vividly musical on all the frequencies...A New Small paradise with the same Ember...I can assure you that there is no comparison for me between the stock tube and the 7193 and the 7193 are better than my 6sn7 also ......i will make another report for my headphone listenings..


----------



## richard51

the effect of the 7193 on the he 400 headphone are more spectacular than with the Monsoon.....Wow the soundstage are more open more three-d all frequencies more definite......I am in awe... i think that its the fist time i listen my he 400....  thanks to all of you here.....


----------



## Amish

Damn you Richard...I didn't want to hear that...or did I? Guess another adpater and tube need to be ordered.


----------



## richard51

amish said:


> Damn you Richard...I didn't want to hear that...or did I? Guess another adpater and tube need to be ordered.


 

 i am sorry for your wallet  but i must speak to future Ember owner 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




......Dont waste money on tubes except 7193 tubes.....i had purchase  200 hundred dollars of standard tubes and a batch or 2 of 6sn7 ......Only 2 ken-rads will be necessary and an adapter....no comparison of the 7193 with the others tubes : amperex ,bugle boy , mullard , telefunken. dont waste money they are variation in sound between them , YES ,some are better, YES...... But the Ember is a made in heaven for the 7193 tubes....i had read all the internet, not one person purchasing the 7193 are going back to standard tubes or the 6sn7.... Not one...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I understand them.... After 15 months its the first time i listen my he 400.. They are on par with basic stax  and i prefer them ....with the 7193 tubes...


----------



## Amish

So is this that dual tube adapter thing Ive been seeing lately? Running two tubes? Is that what you have now Richard?


----------



## connieflyer

Yes Amish this is the two 7193 tube with adapter.  This is the best I have heard from the Ember.  Great investment.


----------



## richard51

amish said:


> So is this that dual tube adapter thing Ive been seeing lately? Running two tubes? Is that what you have now Richard?


 

 yes....like connieflyer says


----------



## richard51

The Ember is so good an amp......no official review compare it with the 7193 tubes against other amps..There exist no review of the Ember at his best....Personaly i am sure that amp costing between 500 and 1000 dollars are not real upgrade but more sidegrade...i will buy in next 15 month the best amp in the world for the price... The MicroZOTL, that will be an upgrade (1100 dollars)... no other amp less than 1000 dollars will be...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  and perhaps your pagoda Amish  in some time to come...i hope so


----------



## Amish

Now that sounds like a plan!


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello guys, would you mind telling your 'secret' of which 7193 tubes are giving such great performance (or is there only one brand of 7193)? Also anything more descriptive on how they sound would be excellent for us all to know, such as the high/mid/lows, clarity, impact, vocal presentation, etc.
  
 Also @Amish great, after you get the 7193 please let us know your impression of how it compares to your other smaller tubes. 
 PS- sorry if my messages may sound a little 'off' sometimes - it's a little hard to make things come off as intended in written form.


----------



## richard51

Kenrad is the best and national union second.... for 7193 tubes..... its simple, all is better across the range.. soundstage is better definite and all frequencies are more vivid... and that is the same on my speakers or on my hifiman he 400...if you read on the internet you will discover many favorable reviews of people who goes from  6sn7 good tubes toward 7193 better tubes...I had not discovered one negative review on the net,( hence i bought several tubes) here is a sample of reviews from different sources:
  
 «National Union vs RCA vs Ken-Rad 7193 tubes.
 Since I have converted my Chenin to 7193s, I have been evaluating the different brands of 7193s available (in addition to enjoying the great sound!). Let me say that they are all excellent tubes, but there are some subtle differences between them, both in sound and in construction. All have black, relatively flat plates, with small boxes in the center.
 National Union: The NUs have the smallest bottle of the three 7193s, and the getter is not visible from the exterior of the tubes. They have a round top and bottom mica. These were the first 7193s I ever heard, and they sound very good indeed. These are silky smooth, with a rich midrange. They are a little rolled off on the extremes compared to the other two tubes, but it is a not a huge difference.
 RCA: The RCAs have a larger bottle than the NUs, with a bottom getter and round top and bottom mica. They have more extended highs and lows than the NUs, with fuller bass and a little more detail on top. Not quite as smooth as the NUs, and not quite as warm in the midrange.
 Ken-Rad: The biggest bottle of the three, slightly larger than the RCA, with bottom getter and non-round top and bottom mica (looks like a round mica with a section cut out in each quadrant). The best bass of the three - the impact of kick drums is sensational, and bass lines can be felt and heard in great detail. The highs are nice and airy, with very good detail, and the midrange is very sweet as well.
 So overall, in my opinion, I would rank the 7193s as follows:
 Ken-Rad: best overall - it has everything
 National Union: smoothest and warmest sounding, but a little less top and bottom than the others
 RCA: Similar to the Ken-Rad, but not quite as smooth in the highs.»
  
 «The ultimate 6SN7 for me wasn't a 6SN7 at all. I replaced the 6SN7s in my Supratek Chenin preamp with CCS loaded 2C22 single triodes, biased to 3.4V using (4) Cree SiC Schottky Diodes on the cathode. To say they were MUCH MUCH better is an understatement. The 2C22 is roughly equivalent to 1/2 of a 6SN7, but the anode and grid are taken out via top caps.
 Bass is clearer and more defined, mids are to die for, treble is sparkling without being grating. Using the CCS I am able to replace both sections of the 6SN7 with a single 2C22 and still have plenty of gain.
 What is magic is the 2C22/7193, but that's 6.6k Rp and two top caps. Mind, that's where the magic is if that's what you want and you have a high input impedence on your amp. I thank my lucky stars i came across that tube.»
  
 «I converted my 6SN7 preamp to 2C22 and there's no going back - better high, lows, spatial rendition, tone, etc. I run them at 14.6mA, 175V, CCS on plate, Cree SiC Shottky diodes for bias,  
 I couldn't believe my ears when I heard the 2C22 a few years ago - it made all 6SN7s sound boring».
  
  
  «I know the 2C22 stage sounds excellent - almost DHT.»
  
  «In my experience, the 7193 is sonically superior to any 6sn7 regardless of manufacture... nos or otherwise.
 Comparatively speaking: the 7193's sonic signature is a combination of the best of the 6sn7 family.
 Combine the bass power and depth of the Kenrad black, the 3 dimentional midrange of the old tungsol round plate,the bloom of the Rca grey glass with the treble extention of the best nos sylvania's.
 Although a little more difficult to find these days, they generally sell for a fraction of the cost of the nos 6sn7's.»


----------



## richard51

i listen now to my transsubstantiate Hifiman He-400 with my_ FrankenEmber_


----------



## connieflyer

Hope you enjoy it as much as I have, good listening


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


> Hope you enjoy it as much as I have, good listening


 





 thank you my friend ....


----------



## DavidA

richard51 said:


> i listen now to my transsubstantiate Hifiman He-400 with my_ FrankenEmber_


 

 Looking at this picture I'm can't imagine not accidently not knocking them over 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  Really does justice to the name FankenEmber


----------



## punkaroo

I purchased a pair of Mad Dogs with Alpha Pads off a HF user a few months back. I just received my Ember 2.0, and my Amperex "Orange Globe" 12AT7 tube from eBay. I purchased a Tung Sol 12AT7 from Jeremy, but found it just "okay". It's not very engaging or fun.
  
 I'm listening to the Orange Globe right now, and I'm VERY happy with it. It's fun, but clear, and there's great instrument separation in all types of music thus far. Highs are crisp without being fatiguing, and the bottom end is punchy and controlled. Mids are beautiful.
  
 I'm eagerly trying to get my hands on a Telefunken 12AX7; heard one years ago in a MapleTree Audio amp and fell it love with it with my Grados. Also have my eye on a Harman Kardon branded, made by Telefunken 12AT7. Damn you eBay, LOL!
  
 I'm very impressed with Jeremy's level of service. I had a million questions for him start to finish, and he's extremely patient and kind, and FAST!


----------



## DavidA

punkaroo said:


> I purchased a pair of Mad Dogs with Alpha Pads off a HF user a few months back. I just received my Ember 2.0, and my Amperex "Orange Globe" 12AT7 tube from eBay. I purchased a Tung Sol 12AT7 from Jeremy, but found it just "okay". It's not very engaging or fun.
> 
> I'm listening to the Orange Globe right now, and I'm VERY happy with it. It's fun, but clear, and there's great instrument separation in all types of music thus far. Highs are crisp without being fatiguing, and the bottom end is punchy and controlled. Mids are beautiful.
> 
> ...


 

 Love the Telefunken 12AX7, been using one in Ember and BH Crack.  If you want a warmer sound try a Mullard 12AX7.


----------



## punkaroo

I'm finding this amp is similar to my DNA Sonett; it does its job and gets out of the way, allowing you to just enjoy your music.
  
 David, do you find your Telefunken to be noisy in the Ember? I was also looking at a Mullard 12AX7 on eBay. DAMN YOU EBAY!


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi guys, I'm ordering the Ember now, with the 6S adapter. For now I'll just skip right to the top tubes you recommended, so can you tell me where I can buy the 7193 adapter (decent quality) and a set of Ken-Rad 7193 tubes? I'm also interested in the Sylvania 6SN7. Thanks


----------



## DavidA

punkaroo said:


> I'm finding this amp is similar to my DNA Sonett; it does its job and gets out of the way, allowing you to just enjoy your music.
> 
> David, do you find your Telefunken to be noisy in the Ember? I was also looking at a Mullard 12AX7 on eBay. DAMN YOU EBAY!


 

 Haven't found a noisy tube yet.  I always clean the pins with Deoxit (red color) and use the gold liquid one to preserve.


----------



## punkaroo

I kept reading about the impedance switch...and I thought "WHERE is this thing?!" 
  
 Well, I finally found it. I take it that I remove the plastic piece and replace it where I want it? For low, or high? It's set to medium.
  
 I need to pick up some Deoxit eventually. That stuff is expensive, man!


----------



## richard51

Decentlevi,This is the 7193 adapter...... I recommand to you this guy  ( link at the end of my post )..... He is very honest and  do not charge me anything for replacing a faulty adapter.....you must read the thread about the Ember for details about the 7193 tubes ( the 11 last pages) on  : « DIY audio heaven»
  
  
  
  
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6C8P-2C22-7193-CV6-CV3601-TO-6SN7GT-B65-CV1988-tube-converter-adapter-/191551519526?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c995c3b26


----------



## richard51

davida said:


> Haven't found a noisy tube yet.  I always clean the pins with Deoxit (red color) and use the gold liquid one to preserve.


 

 i had bought more than 40 tubes in all.... for the moment i had only one noisy.....


----------



## DavidA

punkaroo said:


> I kept reading about the impedance switch...and I thought "WHERE is this thing?!"
> 
> Well, I finally found it. I take it that I remove the plastic piece and replace it where I want it? For low, or high? It's set to medium.
> 
> I need to pick up some Deoxit eventually. That stuff is expensive, man!


 
 You don't need a lot of the Deoxit, the 7.4ml bottle has lasted me about 2 years and there is still about half left, don't get the spray, the brush works better and get good lint free cleaning cloths like a microfiber or the ones they used to clean tape heads or transport rollers.
 When changing the impedance switch remember to set both to the same setting and you can do this while the amp is in use so you can hear the changes quickly.


----------



## DavidA

richard51 said:


> i had bought more than 40 tubes in all.... for the moment i had only one noisy.....


 
 I was thinking that I bought too many tubes but after seeing you are a 40 I don't feel so bad, 21 pairs for my Lyr2, 23 driver tubes for Ember/Crack and 6 power tubes for the Crack: total 61.  Just had one of my 6080's go bad, one channel doesn't work.
  
 Has anyone tried 6922 / 6DJ8 / 6N23P / ECC88 / E88CC family of tubes in the Ember?  I've had mixed results so far and only a few of the really good NOS tubes like Telefunken CCa, Siemens Lorenz, Amperex Holland Bugle Boy, and Sylvania Jan seem to sound great but since I'm only using one of the match pairs (bought for my Lyr2) its a waste.


----------



## Solrighal

I know this might sound stupid but I'll only buy the 7193 adapter when it's built on a black PCB. 

No noisy valves here either by the way.


----------



## richard51

davida said:


> I was thinking that I bought too many tubes but after seeing you are a 40 I don't feel so bad, 21 pairs for my Lyr2, 23 driver tubes for Ember/Crack and 6 power tubes for the Crack: total 61.  Just had one of my 6080's go bad, one channel doesn't work.
> 
> Has anyone tried 6922 / 6DJ8 / 6N23P / ECC88 / E88CC family of tubes in the Ember?  I've had mixed results so far and only a few of the really good NOS tubes like Telefunken CCa, Siemens Lorenz, Amperex Holland Bugle Boy, and Sylvania Jan seem to sound great but since I'm only using one of the match pairs (bought for my Lyr2) its a waste.


 

 i wish someone had said to me in the beginning dont buy any tubes except 7193 .....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i would had saved 2 hundred dollars or more i guess.... But the appreciation and experience have a cost....How do you appreciate for yourself if you go straight to the right tube for someone else? How do you know that its the best tube for yourself? i guess someone must minimally explore possibilities for himself....and most importantly read on the net about these tubes... i had bought after reading all others experience.....i dont like tube rolling  and i am glad that this experience are in the past for me... Its difficult to imagine better than the 7193.... For my monsoon or for my he400


----------



## DavidA

richard51 said:


> i wish someone had said to me in the beginning dont buy any tubes except 7193 .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 +1
 Well said


----------



## Solrighal

I agree in general but the joy of travel is in the journey, not the destination. As someone more famous than I once said.


----------



## DavidA

solrighal said:


> I agree in general but the joy of travel is in the journey, not the destination. As someone more famous than I once said.


 

 I'm still on the journey and my GPS is broken


----------



## richard51

solrighal said:


> I agree in general but the joy of travel is in the journey, not the destination. As someone more famous than I once said


 
 I am totally in accord with that famous observation..... the tube rolling activies was fun, yes, but i am not very rich, and it was costly.... and  finally the 7193 was superior for me to such extent,to all my other tubes, amperex, telefunken, mullard, and the 6sn7 (sylvanias and others in thi family)... With big money i would had enjoy the travel more, but i am relatively poor, i am glad that this journey ended with the final discovery with the EmBer
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 But your remark is clever than my regret, because without the journey there is no appreciation of the discovery


----------



## bbball

davida said:


> I was thinking that I bought too many tubes but after seeing you are a 40 I don't feel so bad, 21 pairs for my Lyr2, 23 driver tubes for Ember/Crack and 6 power tubes for the Crack: total 61.  Just had one of my 6080's go bad, one channel doesn't work.
> 
> Has anyone tried 6922 / 6DJ8 / 6N23P / ECC88 / E88CC family of tubes in the Ember?  I've had mixed results so far and only a few of the really good NOS tubes like Telefunken CCa, Siemens Lorenz, Amperex Holland Bugle Boy, and Sylvania Jan seem to sound great but since I'm only using one of the match pairs (bought for my Lyr2) its a waste.


 
  
  
  
 I just got Ember last week and also bought five tubes to roll. To me, I like GE 6DJ8 more than RCA 6SN7. To me, 6DJ8 is more energetic compare to RCA 6SN7.....just my personal taste.


----------



## DavidA

bbball said:


> I just got Ember last week and also bought five tubes to roll. To me, I like GE 6DJ8 more than RCA 6SN7. To me, 6DJ8 is more energetic compare to RCA 6SN7.....just my personal taste.


 

 Interesting, can you provide more info on the GE 6DJ8 if you have any?


----------



## bbball

davida said:


> Interesting, can you provide more info on the GE 6DJ8 if you have any?


 
  
  
 Sorry but I am pretty new to the Tube Rolling world, I am not sure what kind of info you want to know. I ordered it from GARAGE 1217.
  
 All the tubes I got from Jeremy are 12au7(stock), 6sn7 (rca cleartop), 6n6p, 6n2p and GE smoked glass 6dj8. I think they all sound different in certain point but I prefer the sound of 6sn7 and 6dj8. To me, 6sn7 is very smooth yet very detailed. And I am not sure if all the 6sn7 will sound similar or clearly different. And like I said, 6dj8 to me is more energetic compare to the 6sn7 especially when I listen some vocal records, the voice just feel like has more energy....and sorry I don't know how to describe it accordingly but you probably get what I mean lol


----------



## Amish

I currently have 21 tubes. Many of the tubes I have are valuable and I hate to admit how much money I have invested in them...so I won't.
  
 That said and in hind sight I have to agree that buying all those tubes allowed me to really appreciate the gems I bought out of the entire bunch. But I don't need all these tubes. A couple Telefunkens, a couple bugle boys, a couple sylvanias and I'd be good. But since I have a bunch of tubes I do tend to pop them in and out on a regular basis. It's fun!
  
 For the most part though I am done buying tubes. I doubt I'll even try the frankenember. I'm sure its awesome but since I haven't heard it I can safetly assume it's no better and maybe worse than what I already have.


----------



## Solrighal

I'm with you on the FrankenEmber. It just doesn't do it for me. I shouldn't say it but to me aesthetics matter.

My best valve so far is my.. 

*1945 General Electric 6SN7GT VT-231*


----------



## richard51

i wish not to be a demon..... i will not say that the 7193 are way better than the 6sn7 that are for me way better than the amperex, bugle boy etc.... i dont have said anything and i am not here.....By the way  the Franken Ember is beautiful on my desk....that i will say and that only...


----------



## Amish

solrighal said:


> I'm with you on the FrankenEmber. It just doesn't do it for me. I shouldn't say it but to me aesthetics matter.
> 
> My best valve so far is my..
> 
> *1945 General Electric 6SN7GT VT-231*


 

 I have to say I agree. Looks mean something to me as well and the Frankenember looks badass in a way but is not pleasing to my eyes. I'd not want it on my desk. This is no slam to those that like the look though. It's just my opinion.
  
@richard51
  
 Honestly to me the 6SN7 is not an upgrade over a couple of my bugle boys and vintage telefunken tubes. 6sn7 is more open, solid bass, pretty much great throughout the FR but I don't get the 3d effect and gain that I love from my other vintage 12ax, at and bh tubes.
  
 My latest 6sn7 (1946 RCA) is one of the best tubes I have heard but I can't say it's better than a couple of my 12xx7 tubes. It's a close one though and depends on what kind of music I'm listening to at any given time and what mood I'm in.
  
 Enjoy your Frankenember. I'd love to hear one sometime.


----------



## zeed

amish said:


> I have to say I agree. Looks mean something to me as well and the Frankenember looks badass in a way but is not pleasing to my eyes. I'd not want it on my desk. This is no slam to those that like the look though. It's just my opinion.
> 
> @richard51
> 
> ...




Which noval valves do you consider to be on par with your 1940's RCA 6SN7GT ?


----------



## Amish

To me the newest 6sn7 I recently aquired sounds really good and is my current fav tube. That said the differences between the 6sn7 and 12xx7 tubes I own aren't that great at all. In fact I would say that they are quite alike though the 12xx tubes that I prefer have more gain and a more lush and 3d like sound (Telefunken) and about the same as far as the sound of the FR when comparing to the bugle boys I have. What the 6sn7 does better than all of my 12xx7 tubes is the openness of the sound.
  
 Tubes I would rate on par would be these:
 1959 Telefunken 12AT7
 1960 Telefunken 12AT7 Tektronix
 1961 AMPEREX BUGLE BOY 12AX7
 1964 Amperex Holland treble clef logo Bugle Boy 12ax7
 Polytronics Lab 12ax7 (Amperex Holland)
  
  
 I should add that my 'fav' tube changes on a week to week basis. Depends on what I want at the time. The 6sn7 is a worthy tube to run and I like it. I have three of them. It's just the differences are not really that great. The 12xx7 tubes (some more than others) sound open too, but the 6sn7 does seems to be more spacious sounding. That is really the only plus to running the 6sn7 IMO.
  
 The Bugle boys I own might not be for everyone but damn they are musical. deep tight bass, sweet mids and sparkly highs. I have a few Telefunkens and they seem to me to be more on the lush side and 3d. YMMV


----------



## richard51

amish said:


> I have to say I agree. Looks mean something to me as well and the Frankenember looks badass in a way but is not pleasing to my eyes. I'd not want it on my desk. This is no slam to those that like the look though. It's just my opinion.
> 
> @richard51
> 
> ...


 

 We agree that 6sn7 is better may be for one a sidegrade for me an upgrade .....our appreciation vary but our impression are convergent...you had excellent gear, hence not two ears hears the same....( i dream to try the pagoda dac)


----------



## Solrighal

The 6SN7 is a definite upgrade for me. The additional width and space between instruments makes up for what is possibly the one failing of the HD 650, namely, soundstage.


----------



## richard51

solrighal said:


> The 6SN7 is a definite upgrade for me. The additional width and space between instruments makes up for what is possibly the one failing of the HD 650, namely, soundstage.


 

 4 ears better than two oups!


----------



## richard51

i think that the pagoda of Amish is probably better than my excellent bushmaster and that is why Amish is minimizing the upgrade of this tube..... I am very interested by this pagoda... but no way to purchase one before 2 years


----------



## DavidA

Finally got my adapter for 6SN7 tubes and drill bit to enlarge the hole on the top plate and got 2 tubes to test with.
  
 Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA Mil, Sylvania 6SN7GT 3 hole
  
 Started with 6SN7GT 3 hole and as most here have said it does make the sound stage wider, but the added width seems to come at the expense of dynamics and bass extension in comparison to my Telefunken, Amperex and EH tubes.  I'll let it burn in for a day or two to see if there are any changes.


----------



## richard51

davida said:


> Finally got my adapter for 6SN7 tubes and drill bit to enlarge the hole on the top plate and got 2 tubes to test with.
> 
> Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA Mil, Sylvania 6SN7GT 3 hole
> 
> Started with 6SN7GT 3 hole and as most here have said it does make the sound stage wider, but the added width seems to come at the expense of dynamics and bass extension in comparison to my Telefunken, Amperex and EH tubes.  I'll let it burn in for a day or two to see if there are any changes.


 

 burn in may be important here..... and you must know that from my experience no two 6sn7 tubes sound the same  for bass extension etc 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 for me the soundstage was better , like you experienced yourself but the dynamic bass extension and higher frequencies was better also, my tube was a 6sn7 Stromberg carlson....


----------



## DavidA

richard51 said:


> burn in may be important here..... and you must know that from my experience no two 6sn7 tubes sound the same  for bass extension etc
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I haven't heard too much change with most of my tubes so don't really expect miracles here, just being realistic.  Still think the 12AU7 or 12AT7 Telefunken sound better, to each his own.


----------



## richard51

the greateest change i have heard is with the double 7193 tubes...that transform my system for the better.....you must read about this tube on the internet...


----------



## Solrighal

davida said:


> I haven't heard too much change with most of my tubes so don't really expect miracles here, just being realistic.  Still think the 12AU7 or 12AT7 Telefunken sound better, to each his own.


 
  
 Try to find a valve with the VT-231 designation. Trust me.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi guys, I just got my Ember 2.0 in the mail (also a 6SN7 tube and 7193's I didn't try yet).
  
 That would be excellent if anybody would fill me in: Is it safe to change the gain settings while it's running or do I need to turn it off when doing so? From what I can tell, that would be the black removable plastic thing towards the front on both sides that says low / med / high, right?
  
 Also if anybody knows which one the output attenuator is, that would be cool too. 
  
 And this is my first tube amp, so does a tube or the amp need to warm up awhile? Thanks! reviews coming!


----------



## richard51

decentlevi said:


> Hi guys, I just got my Ember 2.0 in the mail (also a 6SN7 tube and 7193's I didn't try yet).
> 
> That would be excellent if anybody would fill me in: Is it safe to change the gain settings while it's running or do I need to turn it off when doing so? From what I can tell, that would be the black removable plastic thing towards the front on both sides that says low / med / high, right?
> 
> ...


 

 Congratulations! and yes i change myself the gain settings without  turned it off....for the output attenuator its simple look in the manual its very clearly indicated.....


----------



## bbball

decentlevi said:


> Hi guys, I just got my Ember 2.0 in the mail (also a 6SN7 tube and 7193's I didn't try yet).
> 
> That would be excellent if anybody would fill me in: Is it safe to change the gain settings while it's running or do I need to turn it off when doing so? From what I can tell, that would be the black removable plastic thing towards the front on both sides that says low / med / high, right?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Quote:


richard51 said:


> Congratulations! and yes i change myself the gain settings without  turned it off....for the output attenuator its simple look in the manual its very clearly indicated.....


 
  
 As long as I know, the low/med/high setting should be the different level of output impedance, which not only affects the output volume but also affects the sound signature dramatically. The output attenuator, which is locate at the back of your Ember, is something similar to the gain setting that only gonna affects your volume. Maybe I am wrong, but it works like this.


----------



## Solrighal

The two vertical jumpers at the rear (next to the line-in) are your gain settings.
  
 The two horizontal jumpers (one on either side) are your output resistance settings.
  
 The two vertical jumpers in the centre (front-left & front-right of the valve) are your input capacitors bypass settings.
  
 The single vertical jumper in the centre (directly in front of valve) is your LED on/off switch.
  
 The red LED at the front of the amp will illuminate when the amp is switched on & stay lit until the valve is ready to go.
  
 I would not change the gain settings with the amp turned on.
  
 I do change the output resistance settings with the amp turned on & music playing.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello guys, yes, thanks very much for your help! I figured everything out and posted an in depth review here, along with some things about tubes.


----------



## Solrighal

decentlevi said:


> Hello guys, yes, thanks very much for your help! I figured everything out and posted an in depth review here, along with some things about tubes.


 
  
 It's a good review, well done. It's important to get the terminology right though. Gain & output resistance are not the same thing.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello all,
  
 You may have read my recent review in high praise of the Sylvania 6SN7 tube on the Ember 2. But with further use I realised that to me, this tube only 'sings' with lossless recordings, yet with all else it gives me a strange sort of listener's fatigue from what I'd call way too much 3D-ish sound, or maybe I should call it saturation / 'tubey' sound. So can anyone recommend another tube (6SN7 or 7193) that is a little less 'tubey'? Maybe I'm looking for more of a solid-state sound.


----------



## connieflyer

You could try and inner tube!


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi, what do you mean by that? (I don't get your joke / or suggestion?)


----------



## richard51

decentlevi said:


> Hello all,
> 
> You may have read my recent review in high praise of the Sylvania 6SN7 tube on the Ember 2. But with further use I realised that to me, this tube only 'sings' with lossless recordings, yet with all else it gives me a strange sort of listener's fatigue from what I'd call way too much 3D-ish sound, or maybe I should call it saturation / 'tubey' sound. So can anyone recommend another tube (6SN7 or 7193) that is a little less 'tubey'? Maybe I'm looking for more of a solid-state sound.


 

 for me better the gear, better the tube, less interest in bad recordings...Its not too much "tubey" sound.... Its no more crap recordings...


----------



## Amish

decentlevi said:


> So can anyone recommend another tube (6SN7 or 7193) that is a little less 'tubey'? Maybe I'm looking for more of a solid-state sound.


 
 Funny. But you are in luck. There are tubes that are less, well tube like. JJ tubes seem to fit that bill. My JJ 12au7 did anyway. I think if you get some cheap currently made russian tubes you might find something you like.
  


connieflyer said:


> You could try and inner tube!


 
  
 Or a solid state amp right?


decentlevi said:


> Hi, what do you mean by that? (I don't get your joke / or suggestion?)


 
  
 Conniehumor.


----------



## Solrighal

richard51 said:


> for me better the gear, better the tube, less interest in bad recordings...Its not too much "tubey" sound.... Its no more crap recordings...




This. Stop listening to crap. You don't run a Lamborghini on chip fat. 

Last night I listened to an album that I've owned & loved for 20 years but probably haven't seriously listened to in the last 10 years. Back then my equipment was nowhere near as good as it is now.

It blew me away!


----------



## Amish

Tube Monger is have a 4th of July sale. 10% off everything. I've bought from him before. I don't care for all of his prices but he has a deal here and there.
  
 http://www.tubemonger.com


----------



## richard51

Amish, why do you sell the pagoda?


----------



## Amish

richard51 said:


> Amish, why do you sell the pagoda?


 

 Not because it isn't the most awesome DAC I have had the pleasure to hear, that is for sure.
  
 I want to buy the more expensive MHDT Labs Pagoda Balanced model.
  
 TBH though I love this DAC so much I don't care if it sells. I can't imagine not having it in my stack but then again I'd just have another Pagoda anyways.


----------



## richard51

If i had money i had bought it from you...... thanks for the reply


----------



## Amish

Well if you had the money I would reluctantly take it from you. In trade of course!


----------



## DecentLevi

Updating my last post, I think the terminology I meant was "rich and harmonic". Does anybody know a 6SN7 or 7193 tube that is more dry / solid-state sounding rather than rich & harmonic? Thanks


----------



## Amish

decentlevi said:


> Updating my last post, I think the terminology I meant was "rich and harmonic". Does anybody know a 6SN7 or 7193 tube that is more dry / solid-state sounding rather than rich & harmonic? Thanks


 

 Serious question. If you prefer a more solid state sound then why did you buy the Ember? You should have just bought a decent SS amp and been happy. I think it's strange to buy a tube amp and then seek a SS amp sound.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well this was my first time having a tube amp and was just basing my impressions off of these reviews, it seems the only thing that wasn't mentioned was that tubes seem to add a harmonic sound; which I guess is what they did describe as distortion. However I remember reading somewhere on HF something about solid-state sounding tube amps so I'm sure I'll find a tube that has a comparable sound. I still like the Ember esp. for lossless recordings but most of what I'm listening to these days are rare podcasts / streaming radio shows only avail. in lossy, and I discovered solid-state sound seems to work better for that.


----------



## Amish

Well do what I do. I run a tube amp and a ss amp. Then I use a Schiit SYS to switch between the two.
  
 Or do a lot of reading on tubes till you find one to buy that gives you the sound you want. Good luck dude. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 I have a couple of Westinghouse black plate 12au7's that kinda sound more SS to me but in a mellow way. I think you might like a good Amperex 12AX7 as they have a really good sound that is more in line with SS maybe as the bass is tight, mids sweet and highs sparkly. Something you might expect from a good SS amp.
  
 If you lived closer I would bring over some tubes for you to try but that is one heck of a drive for me. If you are ever down my way though let me know and I would be happy to let you demo all my tubes.


----------



## jaxz

Hi!


----------



## richard51

jaxz said:


> Hi!


 

 nice gear....Congratulations!


----------



## Solrighal

jaxz said:


> Hi!


 
  
 Hi. Good choice!


----------



## jaxz

Thank you guys! I'm receiving a Sylvania 6SN7 brown base tomorrow. I don't know year or exactly model. Hopefully, it will be a nice sounding valve.


----------



## DecentLevi

That's ironic, from my recent research I was told something about the brown base Sylvania 6SN7 possibly sounding somewhat closer to the solid-state sound with less harmonic distortion. So @jazx please post a review tomorrow whether that tube sounds cleaner in that way or not?


----------



## connieflyer

*Audiophile *  

*Posts:* 4
*Location:* Silicon Valley, CA
*Joined:* July 2, 2015
 Hello, I would like to see if anybody can recommend a tube that would suit my needs. I have the project Ember 2 headphone amp with a 6SN7 and 7193 tube adapter, and prefer the performance of the larger tubes, so probably I would prefer a 6SN7 or 7193 type of tube. Here is the sound signature I'm looking for:

 Fairly detailed & punchy with good frequency response & soundstage, yet I want more of a solid-state sort of sound signature. To put things into perspective I have a Sylvania 6SN7GTB yellow print, silver top tube and I really like its performance in the soundstage, frequency response & detail retrieval, but I find that, especially on lossy recordings it sounds way too saturated / colored / 3D-ish on most all the frequencies. So I think I'm looking for a tube that would sound more like a solid-state amp or possibly a bit more 'sterile', while retaining everything else listed above.
  
  
  
  
 You were also told last night over at Tubes Asylum when you asked the same question,,,,,
*petertg*
*Audiophile *  

*Posts:* 376
*Location:* Maryland
*Joined:* April 6, 2007
 After reading many tube shootouts conducted by Vacuum Tube Valley, I noticed, almost invariably, that manufacturers like Sovtek and Siemens tubes consistantly measured low in THD and were described as sounding solid-state like. I believe that the classic tube sound has a lot to do with higher levels of low-order distortion compared to the clarity and thinner sound of lower distortion tubes.
  
 I also offered this...
*connieflyer*
*Audiophile *  

*Posts:* 33
*Location:* Michigan
*Joined:* March 11, 2014
 Here you go descentlevy from parts express, very reputable company, good customer service, fair price for service and tube, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sovtek-6SN7GT-Vacuum-Tube-072-395-/221562674628?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33962a1dc4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sovtek-6SN7GT-Vacuum-Tube-072-395-/2
 
 Just go out and buy a tube or two and see if it is what you like.   Constantly asking everyone what they think becomes pedantic after awhile.  Asking advice is fine but sooner or later you have to take it or drop it.  It is not as if you are spending half the national treasury, it is just a tube,  Your ears will make the sound different than anyone else.  Advice can get you in the ball park , but you have to "try" it to see if you like it.  The gear the Asylum is much higher end than the Ember.  It has provisions for adjusting tube bias and voltage, power and what have you.  Perhaps you would be happier with a Polaris.


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## richard51

obsession is a good student not a good master...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  no harm intended, i cannot resist to create this sentence...


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## Solrighal

@DecentLevi I'd have to question the wisdom of essentially downgrading your playback components to compensate for inferior recordings.


----------



## DavidA

connieflyer said:


> Just go out and buy a tube or two and see if it is what you like.   Constantly asking everyone what they think becomes pedantic after awhile.  Asking advice is fine but sooner or later you have to take it or drop it.  It is not as if you are spending half the national treasury, it is just a tube,  Your ears will make the sound different than anyone else.  Advice can get you in the ball park , but you have to "try" it to see if you like it.  The gear the Asylum is much higher end than the Ember.  It has provisions for adjusting tube bias and voltage, power and what have you.  Perhaps you would be happier with a Polaris.


 

 I think they call this analysis paralysis


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello all, yes I really value your advice. I take notes of each response and research it. I had posted my general question on 3-4 different forums so that I can get the broadest variety of answers. And before around last week, I knew nothing about tubes so I'm still brand new to this foray. However I had found negative reviews of some of the suggested tubes elsewhere so I didn't take all advice. I had actually ordered one of the tubes that was recommended, and I plan to order a few more today. Actually truth be told, the other reason (besides my personal quest for sonic perfection) I'm in a rush to find the right tube at the moment is because I'm planning to showcase my Ember 2.0 at a booth at the SF CanJam on July 18th, and I want to make sure if has the 'wow' factor to spread the positive vibe about the possibilities with the Ember.
  
 And Solrighal, I'm not trying to downgrade my playback components to compensate for inferior recordings, but rather seeking a tube that provides more of a clean playback with lower THD (SS like), as I've recently discovered, IMO, this seems to provide better results with lossy recordings. Thanks again


----------



## Amish

I had already suggested that you look into russian tubes (currently made ones) earlier in this thread. I really think you might find what you want there and I agree with connieflyer that the Polaris might have been the best choice for you.


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## DecentLevi

Hi guys, I ordered 11 assorted vintage 6SN7 tubes, including a few of your recommended ones, to try out anyway then sort out my impressions. Thanks for all your suggestions, I'm all set for now.


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## DecentLevi

Can somebody please tell me what that means when a tube is causing one channel of the audio to produce an intermittent popping sound accompanied with a loud hiss of static? That happened to me with a 7193 tube I just got. For the first 2-3 min. it was hissing & popping a lot then it calmed down, I then swapped the tubes R/L then I heard the static on the other channel, but it's mostly settled down (for now). But it seemed to help when I re-secured the connection of the wire on the top of the tube so maybe it was just a dirty connection.


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## DavidA

@DecentLevi, are you using Deoxit to clean the pins?  I've found Deoxit to really help with electrical connections, use the red one for cleaning and the gold one to preserve/protect from oxidation.


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## richard51

decentlevi said:


> Can somebody please tell me what that means when a tube is causing one channel of the audio to produce an intermittent popping sound accompanied with a loud hiss of static? That happened to me with a 7193 tube I just got. For the first 2-3 min. it was hissing & popping a lot then it calmed down, I then swapped the tubes R/L then I heard the static on the other channel, but it's mostly settled down (for now). But it seemed to help when I re-secured the connection of the wire on the top of the tube so maybe it was just a dirty connection.


 

 perhaps one of the tube is faulty ? deoxit is a good idea


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## DecentLevi

OK I'll consider the Deoxit sometime thanks.
  
 A few interesting observations on my totally amazing time I've had with my other 7193 tubes - Ken-Rad 7193 with Ember 2.0 (via 6SN7 and 7193 adapters, and after warming up the tubes 20-30 min.):
  
 Immediately I was saying "no way" about how good these tubes sound on the Ember. Then after at least 45 min. of critical listening, here are my observations:
  
 Compared to my other solid state amps, everything seems much more fluidic with a soundstage that is perhaps perfect: not necessarily larger than the SS amps, but done in a way that is *more lifelike*: the mids seem more encompassing and closer, and the other sounds seem nicely laid out in a very lifelike manner. The highs on my SS amps with electronic music sounded 'passive' and OK, but then on the Ember with 7193 tubes, they sounded organic & detailed - then when I tested a rock song that's what blew me away! The cymbals went from sounding 'pleasing' on the SS amps to "wow, that's a *totally real* instrument surrounding me!" Regarding the dynamics / impact, WOW these 7193 tubes nailed it: not too boomy and just the right about of impact / speed IMO. The stereo imaging and speed of everything are 'to die for'. About the timbre, while I certainly didn't notice any issue on the SS amps, it just seemed *more fluidic and 'spot on' *with the 7193 tubes. On one of my headphones with these tubes, I kept looking over my shoulder and pausing the music because I thought there was somebody calling for me - this is an effect when your chain is refined well enough to fool you into thinking sounds are real. Overall, the Ken-Rad 7193 tubes on the Ember 2.0 give a very organic presentation *full of energy*, sounding good on many or all genres, and seem to have a very low THD, and low microphonics.
  
 My solid state amps were the Magni 1 used as a pre-amp into the Capella amp via audiophile grade 3.5mm to RCA cable - of which setup I was really happy with for a long time, and which was already about a good 40% better than the Magni alone. DAC: Gustard X12 with Wyrd USB signal enhancer and all HQ cable transports. The HD 650 sounded phenomenal and well balanced (flat / refined), while the Shure SRH 940 closed cans sounded full of energy and detail on all frequencies, yet unfortunately retaining their inherent overly 'bright' sound. A massive surprise also came from the Soundmagic HP 100's with these 7193s: and I mean for bassheads: this setup gave the deepest, biggest, most full bodied bass I perhaps have ever heard on any headphone - period. (with good s.stage, good mids and semi-good highs).
  
 While I can say I'm quite pleased with these tubes, I'm gonna hold off making any outrageous claims like it being the 'world's best' or anything, until after I've tried the 11 various 6SN7 tubes I have on the way, and until after trying many other rigs at CanJam next week.


----------



## DecentLevi

PS- in my indirect comparison of the Ken-Rad to the RCA 7193's, it seemed the Ken-Rads were just a bit more refined in terms of sounding lifelike and with perhaps just as low harmonic distortion, and maybe slightly less microphonics.


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## bbball

Simply the best so far


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## DecentLevi

yes that's the same photo as my setup mentioned above


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## richard51

very good review.......I am glad that i had insist on the quality of the 7193 by far the best i know of .....


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## richard51

decentlevi said:


> yes that's the same photo as my setup mentioned above


 

 by the way my  7193 tube take more than 50 hours for break in they stabilize after that......


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## DecentLevi

I'm wondering if it would be good enough to burn tubes in simply by leaving the amp on, or do we need to run music thru the tubes also?


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## richard51

no listen to music... the tubes will gently settle...... after reading your review i know that you love your 7193 now hence you will loving them more when they nicely set things in place.....listen to them to discover yourself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 this magic


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## Amish

Glad you are getting somewhere Levi. Good luck in your musical journey.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello, for those of you interested in using 6SN7 tubes on the Ember, feel free to check out my review of a dozen of these tubes on the Ember here.
  
 Also I would like some brief advice please: Every time I replace a tube on the Ember I can't help but feel a little nervous. I'm worried that too much stress on the circuit board could break something. I mean when I place or remove a tube, you know a great deal of exertion is required. I always try to slowly and rock the tube in a small back & forth motion, but, by golly I'm wondering that after too much tube swapping something major on the circuit board could break. I hope it has a warranty, or maybe that the tube cartridge will loosen up in time to make it easier...


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## Solrighal

You need to look up what tube-rolling means. There's an easy way to do it with relatively little stress on any one area. I agree though and, more importantly, Garage 1217 were way ahead of us. The circuit board at 3mm is especially thick so as to take the strain. Not all amps are built the same.
  
 And thanks for the review. I shall go & read it now.


----------



## richard51

decentlevi said:


> Hello, for those of you interested in using 6SN7 tubes on the Ember, feel free to check out my review of a dozen of these tubes on the Ember here.
> 
> Also I would like some brief advice please: Every time I replace a tube on the Ember I can't help but feel a little nervous. I'm worried that too much stress on the circuit board could break something. I mean when I place or remove a tube, you know a great deal of exertion is required. I always try to slowly and rock the tube in a small back & forth motion, but, by golly I'm wondering that after too much tube swapping something major on the circuit board could break. I hope it has a warranty, or maybe that the tube cartridge will loosen up in time to make it easier...


 

 how do you compare 6sn7 tubes and 7193 ?


----------



## Tunkejazz

I just ordered my Ember with the 6SN7 adapter.
  
 I have read so much about Sylvania 6SN7GT/6SN7GTA that I would like to order one. The spread in prices on ebay is overwhelming. Any tips to know which one should I get? Also, which flavor is more recommended for deep bass, the 6SN7GT or 6SN7GTA?
  
 I can see tubes from >20 USD to 200 USD!


----------



## Johan-71

Congrats to a very good amp, you won't get disappointed .
The best recommendation for impactful base would probably be Ken-rad VT 231.
You can always do a search here in the 6SN7 thread.

Regarding the Sylvania I prefer the black base, I think I put up a pic earlier in this thread.
I would also recommend the brown base with green or gold letters/print .
They're very transparent and musical with a wide soundstage .

Johan 



tunkejazz said:


> I just ordered my Ember with the 6SN7 adapter.
> 
> I have read so much about Sylvania 6SN7GT/6SN7GTA that I would like to order one. The spread in prices on ebay is overwhelming. Any tips to know which one should I get? Also, which flavor is more recommended for deep bass, the 6SN7GT or 6SN7GTA?
> 
> I can see tubes from >20 USD to 200 USD!


----------



## Tunkejazz

Thanks Johan-71!


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## RyHi-FiGuy

Hey everyone, I've been looking for some Sylvania Chrome Tops for my Ember, and found these on eBay. Would this be a good purchase/are they the correct type of valve?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-6SN7-GTB-Sylvania-Angle-Plate-Chrome-Top-Highfidelity-Graded-Pair-/301685151803?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item463dd6183b#viTabs_0


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## connieflyer

These tubes would be alright, but read the fine print......._High Fidelity: _A tube that tests in lightly used condition,  thoroughly tested and in excellent  fully functional condition. Labeling may be moderately obscured or missing from cleaning. A "High Fidelity" used graded tube will be meticulously cleaned to like new condition and will provide excellent sound quality. "High Fidelity tubes will range from New Old Stock testing to 10% above Good specifications and have balanced sections within 30%.  Vintage tubes that are more closely matched than 30% may earn a PLUS rating. At a minimum the tube will be housed in new white box, clearly labeled.  He is calling them High Fidelity grade, which looks like something that is not a real standard, just their rating. It is their lowest rating, yet sounds good unless you read the other two ratings that are higher.  Also, you are buying two of the same tube, if they are in fact of good quality, they will last a long, long time in the Ember.  Jo-han 71 is correct on the Ken-Rad vt 231, I bought a new one, costly, but best 6SNS7 I have.  Also have a few others, all very similar. 
*KEN-RAD CLEAR GLASS 6SN7GT VT-231*
  
 You are looking at a pair of 1945 production KEN-RAD 6SN7GT VT-231 vintage tubes. Both have same construction  with staggered black plate and bottom foil getter. The tube is famous for its great Bass, sweet Midrange and wide Bandwidth.
 They were tested on TV-7B/U with strong reading of 96 & 98 and 98 & 98 where the minimum reading for a good 6SN7 tube on this tester is 50 & 50.  No leakage no gas found on both tubes.
 Shipping is  $3.5 for USPS First Class Mail® in USA. International winner will pay the actual cost of shipping.  If interested in a pair, try these...http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-OF-KEN-RAD-6SN7GT-VT-231-MILITARY-TUBES-TESTED-STRONG-/261959334314?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cfdfe39aa#
  
  
 Check this page, older page but info still valid.   http://www.dehavillandhifi.com/6sn7_vt.htm


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## DecentLevi

tunkejazz said:


> I just ordered my Ember with the 6SN7 adapter.
> 
> I have read so much about Sylvania 6SN7GT/6SN7GTA that I would like to order one. The spread in prices on ebay is overwhelming. Any tips to know which one should I get? Also, which flavor is more recommended for deep bass, the 6SN7GT or 6SN7GTA?
> 
> I can see tubes from >20 USD to 200 USD!


 
 From my testing owning both these tubez, the Sylv. 6SN7 GTA wins hands-down over the GT; the GTA has about 20% more bass, clarity and 'energy'. This is of course IMO, and YMMV depending on the condition of your tubez


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## DecentLevi

Here is the photo of my favorite 6SN7 tube so far, as mentioned above


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## RyHi-FiGuy

decentlevi said:


> Here is the photo of my favorite 6SN7 tube so far, as mentioned above


 

 Can you recommend me a place to buy this tube? Thanks for the advice btw!


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## DecentLevi

richard51 said:


> how do you compare 6sn7 tubes and 7193 ?


 
 Well this is a very broad and 'big' question. There are so many 6SN7 tubes and I've only tried a dozen so far - this being said, it's too early for me to tell which are better, but I am leaning heavily towards the 7193's. Also consider that there is a great variety of 6SN7 tubes with widely varying sound signatures, and purportedly only 3 types of 7193. But from my impressions so far with testing these 2 types of tubes thoroughly, all tested in good condition, here's how I would personally compare them:
  
 The best of the 6SN7 tubes can be immensely pleasing for an audiophile, even enough so to probably call it their end game. Clear details, great energy / lifelike presentation, musical, good amount of bass (or these variables can change depending on _your_ favorite tube), etc.
  
 The 7193 tubes however, pick up where the 6SN7 tubes left off IMO. The major differences seem to be they are more lifelike / organic (like you "are there" compared to a "simulation" of the music), improved instrument separation, sense of air, and perhaps soundstage as well. Comparing between my favorite 6SN7 and 7193 tubes kept ceasely amazing me: how my ears already told me the 6 was the best, but then with the 7, I was like "no way", this really does sound better: more fluidic, lifelike energy, especially noticeable with well mastered songs (electronic music included) and percussive instruments. There are times however that I actually prefer the 6SN7 tubes because of the different variety of sound signatures they can bring: sometimes I'm listening to an album with too much bass, so I go for one of the 6SN7 tubes that are known to have leaner bass, or if I want a more laid-back sound, etc. Also my 7193's give an audible buzzing sound, which I'll probably have to tone down with an external volume limiter. But these really are amazing  chameleons!
  
 PS- these 7193 impressions are based off my Ken-Rad's, which I also found to be superior than the RCA's.


----------



## richard51

decentlevi said:


> Well this is a very broad and 'big' question. There are so many 6SN7 tubes and I've only tried a dozen so far - this being said, it's too early for me to tell which are better, but I am leaning heavily towards the 7193's. Also consider that not there is a great variety of 6SN7 tubes with widely varying sound signatures, and purportedly only 3 types of 7193. But from my impressions so far with testing these 2 types of tubes thoroughly, all tested in good condition, here's how I would personally compare them:
> 
> The best of the 6SN7 tubes can be immensely pleasing for an audiophile, even enough so to probably call it their end game. Clear details, great energy / lifelike presentation, musical, good amount of bass (or these variables can change depending on _your_ favorite tube), etc.
> 
> The 7193 tubes however, pick up where the 6SN7 tubes left off IMO. The major differences seem to be they are more lifelike / organic (like you "are there" compared to a "simulation" of the music), improved instrument separation, sense of air, and perhaps soundstage as well. Comparing between my favorite 6SN7 and 7193 tubes kept ceasely amazing me: how my ears already told me the 6 was the best, but then with the 7, I was like "no way", this really does sound better: more fluidic, lifelike energy, especially noticeable with well mastered songs (electronic music included) and percussive instruments. There are times however that I actually prefer the 6SN7 tubes because of the different variety of sound signatures they can bring: sometimes I'm listening to an album with too much bass, so I go for one of the 6SN7 tubes that are known to have leaner bass, or if I want a more laid-back sound, etc. Also my 7193's give an audible buzzing sound, which I'll probably have to tone down with an external volume limiter. But these really are amazing  chameleons!


 

 tHank you i appreciate greatly your refined review ... i had the same experience than you.... its confirm my impression.... i thank you greatly for your time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 «_improved instrument separation, sense of air, and perhaps soundstage as well_» your impression are the same than mine... i valued most these three qualities than colours ....My speakers and stax headphones and he 400 said the same message than you to my ears...
  
 best regards to you ....


----------



## DecentLevi

ryhi-figuy said:


> Can you recommend me a place to buy this tube? Thanks for the advice btw!


 
 Hi again, please keep in mind that for me personally, I am still very new to tube rolling. So all I can say is to "scour the Internet". eBay, Google, etc. As long as the photo looks similar to mine including the color of the words & the base color, model #, etc. then I'm sure it would be very similar sounding to mine.
  
 Also does anybody have any recommendations to kill the constant buzzing sound that I'm hearing from the above mentioned Ken-Rad 7193 setup ('Franken Ember')? Maybe there's a power-chord solution or external volume limiter solution?


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## richard51

are you sure its not one of the two tubes? i dont have this problem with my 2 ken rads....


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## richard51

Decentlevi you can go to DIY audio heaven Ember Thread, Jeremy or Franz may help you with that i think.......


----------



## Solrighal

connieflyer said:


> These tubes would be alright, but read the fine print......._High Fidelity: _A tube that tests in lightly used condition,  thoroughly tested and in excellent  fully functional condition. Labeling may be moderately obscured or missing from cleaning. A "High Fidelity" used graded tube will be meticulously cleaned to like new condition and will provide excellent sound quality. "High Fidelity tubes will range from New Old Stock testing to 10% above Good specifications and have balanced sections within 30%.  Vintage tubes that are more closely matched than 30% may earn a PLUS rating. At a minimum the tube will be housed in new white box, clearly labeled.  He is calling them High Fidelity grade, which looks like something that is not a real standard, just their rating. It is their lowest rating, yet sounds good unless you read the other two ratings that are higher.  Also, you are buying two of the same tube, if they are in fact of good quality, they will last a long, long time in the Ember.  Jo-han 71 is correct on the Ken-Rad vt 231, I bought a new one, costly, but best 6SNS7 I have.  Also have a few others, all very similar.
> *KEN-RAD CLEAR GLASS 6SN7GT VT-231*
> 
> You are looking at a pair of 1945 production KEN-RAD 6SN7GT VT-231 vintage tubes. Both have same construction  with staggered black plate and bottom foil getter. The tube is famous for its great Bass, sweet Midrange and wide Bandwidth.
> ...


 
  
 Damn! Gone.


----------



## bbball

decentlevi said:


> Hi again, please keep in mind that for me personally, I am still very new to tube rolling. So all I can say is to "scour the Internet". eBay, Google, etc. As long as the photo looks similar to mine including the color of the words & the base color, model #, etc. then I'm sure it would be very similar sounding to mine.
> 
> Also does anybody have any recommendations to kill the constant buzzing sound that I'm hearing from the above mentioned Ken-Rad 7193 setup ('Franken Ember')? Maybe there's a power-chord solution or external volume limiter solution?


 
  
  
 I never met the same problem as yours. One thing may because your adapter is somewhat loose on the top connector. It is loose on one of my 7193 tube and sometime when you disconnect the top connector it will give you a very sharp noise. So try to check that part.


----------



## Demo3

decentlevi said:


> Hi again, please keep in mind that for me personally, I am still very new to tube rolling. So all I can say is to "scour the Internet". eBay, Google, etc. As long as the photo looks similar to mine including the color of the words & the base color, model #, etc. then I'm sure it would be very similar sounding to mine.
> 
> Also does anybody have any recommendations to kill the constant buzzing sound that I'm hearing from the above mentioned Ken-Rad 7193 setup ('Franken Ember')? Maybe there's a power-chord solution or external volume limiter solution?


 
 Hey DecentLeiv
  
 Ordered my 'Franken Ember' with the same setup as yours last Friday, I pm'ed you for the info last week on your setup, thanks.  Depending on when I get everything in and setup I'll report back.  Probably get the Ember before the 7193s.  My source will be FiiO X5 through a AUDIOQUEST - BIG SUR MINI-TO-RCA 1.0M cable.


----------



## DecentLevi

Does anybody know something I can just buy at a normal retail store that can clean the connectors on tubes for a more sound connection? Save the time of waiting for shipping on Deoxit.


----------



## DavidA

decentlevi said:


> Does anybody know something I can just buy at a normal retail store that can clean the connectors on tubes for a more sound connection? Save the time of waiting for shipping on Deoxit.


 

 You can try Sears or Walmart, seen Deoxit in these two stores before.  Best Buy and Radio Shack might have some also.


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks for your suggestion.
  
 While I don't know why the buzzing sound was only happening with my 7193 tubes, I had discovered that the problem could be because there is no 'ground' in the wiring of this house. The 3-pin power chord of my Ember is connected to a power strip which has the 3rd 'ground' pin removed to fit in the 2-pin wall connection. Another member PM'd me to tell me the most likely cause of a buzz is from free electricity running around the Ember caused by poor grounding of the PSU. So upon touching some of the exposed metal contacts like the capacitor or the RCA jacks, the buzzing was reduced. I think I'll try connecting one of those to my windowsill with a plain wire for some grounding.
  
 Another member also told me they have never been able to use the power supplies that come with the Ember, Solstice or Polaris because of the same buzzing sound I am experiencing. Instead he uses a "better switching 48v power supply", which was somewhat hard to find.
  
 So here is a question I would like to ask:
 Does everybody with the 'Franken Ember' setup use a standard grounded 3-pin connection with the power supply and hears 0 noise? If any of you use only a 2-pin connection, do you also hear an audible buzzing sound?


----------



## richard51

Does everybody with the 'Franken Ember' setup use a standard grounded 3-pin connection with the power supply and hears 0 noise?
  
  i am in this situation and zero
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 noise....


----------



## Solrighal

3-pin here and no noise.


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## Demo3

Get your volt meter out while you are at it and check the voltages in the connector.  One should be ground, one common, and one +-120vac.  I have seen older houses set up were there is voltage on the common and hot.  When you add them together they equal 120vac but there might be 80vac on one and 40vac on the other, not good.


----------



## connieflyer

You should probably rewire the entire house, and use solar power for a cleaner sound while you are at it


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## bbball

connieflyer said:


> You should probably rewire the entire house, and use solar power for a cleaner sound while you are at it




Agree. It should give you a warm sound.


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## DecentLevi

Nice suggestions guys, thanks. Unfortunately since I'm just (temporarily) renting a room in somebody's house, I have no control over the wiring. A daisy-chained setup with the Capella amp to the Ember amp has seemed to solve the buzzing sound; which also seems to add more clarity / impact, but possibly even a bit too much clarity. No worries on this buzzing sound for now. 
  
 PS- that really is a good idea for solar power - for anybody who actually owns a house you can get some good financing options, lower your elect. bill and probably this battery powered electricity would give a much more electrically isolated connection to your rig.


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## Soundsgoodtome

Shameless plug but I do want to get around that I have an extra (or spare) 1975 Reflektor E88CC for the Project amp series I'm selling. Basically you're splitting a pair I purchased if anyone is interested in this 'holy grail' tube. LINK


----------



## DavidA

soundsgoodtome said:


> Shameless plug but I do want to get around that I have an extra (or spare) 1975 Reflektor E88CC for the Project amp series I'm selling. Basically you're splitting a pair I purchased if anyone is interested in this 'holy grail' tube. LINK


 

 Got a pair but using them in my Lyr2, really great tubes.  I didn't like the 6jd8/6922 series in the Ember, the 12XXX and 6sn7 series are better IMO.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I'm finding good results with both 12 and 6 volt tubes. I do have a tube buffer on my Paradisea as well but I'm very very content with the Reflektor tubes on the Sunrise 3 (class A). I know Vokshod or Voshkod (?) is an alternative but these are supposedly better.


----------



## sha007

Hello @DavidA . Which tube you are using in Ember to drive HD700?


----------



## DavidA

sha007 said:


> Hello @DavidA . Which tube you are using in Ember to drive HD700?


 

 Using a Telefunken 12AU7.


----------



## sha007

davida said:


> Using a Telefunken 12AU7.


 
 Thanks for the reply. Telefunken? I vaguely remember that you mentioned a Bugle Boy for HD700 in hd700 impressions thread. Why are you recommending the Telefunken now? What's the difference its making?


----------



## DavidA

sha007 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Telefunken? I vaguely remember that you mentioned a Bugle Boy for HD700 in hd700 impressions thread. Why are you recommending the Telefunken now? What's the difference its making?


 
 I keep changing the tube about once a week.  As for the difference between the Bugle Boy and Telefunken,
 Bugle Boy is warmer with better bass and takes some of the edge of the highs with the HD-700, DT-990, RS2e and SennGrados.
 Telefunken is more neutral and the bass and treble are slightly more extended than the Bugle Boy, works great with TH-600, HD-650, LCD-2f and SRH-1840.
 I also tried 2 6SN7 tubes and while many say they are better I still like the 12XXX ones better, maybe I haven't found good 6SN7 tubes yet.


----------



## sha007

davida said:


> I keep changing the tube about once a week.  As for the difference between the Bugle Boy and Telefunken,
> Bugle Boy is warmer with better bass and takes some of the edge of the highs with the HD-700, DT-990, RS2e and SennGrados.
> Telefunken is more neutral and the bass and treble are slightly more extended than the Bugle Boy, works great with TH-600, HD-650, LCD-2f and SRH-1840.
> I also tried 2 6SN7 tubes and while many say they are better I still like the 12XXX ones better, maybe I haven't found good 6SN7 tubes yet.


 
  
 Highly appreciate your comment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I was searching all over the internet to find the best (I am a audio noob but already have the realization that no amp is perfect) amp for my HD 700 which just confused me a lot because everyone is saying only good things about the amps they've bought. But I saw in many post that you have experienced many amps and own a great collection of amps and headphones and you are quite in love with the Ember specially for HD 700. So I'm trusting your judgement and going with the Ember at last 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Can you please provide me some reliable links from where I can order those tubes? I prefer ebay.
  
 Thanks again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 PS : Two more questions : 1) Is the ember ($349.99) at garage1217.com comes with the supper charger pre-installed? 2) Do I need adapter to use those tubes in Ember?


----------



## DavidA

sha007 said:


> Highly appreciate your comment
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 For the tubes just do a search for Telefunken or Bugle Boy and it will show either 12AU7 or 12AX7.
  
 The current Gen2 Ember has the supercharger installed.  If you are only going to use 12AU7 or 12AX7 tubes you don't need the adapter, the adapter is for the 6SN7 tubes.
  
 Good luck


----------



## CrownMan

With my Ember, I find myself switching between 3  different tubes : an early 1960s Telefunken 12AT7 or 1958 12AX7, FrankenEmber setup with early 1940s Ken Rad 7193 and the 6SN7 Mid 1940s Ken Rad. The FrankenEmber gets the most play time with my HiFiMan 500s. The 6SN7 with my Grado HP2s and The telefunkens with my HD600s.


----------



## richard51

crownman said:


> With my Ember, I find myself switching between 3  different tubes : an early 1960s Telefunken 12AT7 or 1958 12AX7, FrankenEmber setup with early 1940s Ken Rad 7193 and the 6SN7 Mid 1940s Ken Rad. The FrankenEmber gets the most play time with my HiFiMan 500s. The 6SN7 with my Grado HP2s and The telefunkens with my HD600s.


 

 very interesting indeed......For me its FrankenEmber with he 400 +sorbothane mod


----------



## sha007

Has anyone tired Genalex Gold Lion 12AU7 with ember? 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-NEW-Genalex-Gold-Lion-12AU7-ECC82-B749-Vacuum-Tube-TESTED-Balanced-Triodes-/290728903870?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b0cb04be


----------



## DavidA

sha007 said:


> Has anyone tired Genalex Gold Lion 12AU7 with ember?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-NEW-Genalex-Gold-Lion-12AU7-ECC82-B749-Vacuum-Tube-TESTED-Balanced-Triodes-/290728903870?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b0cb04be


 

 They are not bad, just so happens I currently have them in my Ember, switched out the Telefunken's yesterday.  The Telefunken has better dynamics and bass but the Gold Lion is smoother in the highs.  This is just with HE-400, all my other headphones except for HD-650 and one SennGrado have been packed, moving next week.


----------



## sha007

davida said:


> For the tubes just do a search for Telefunken or Bugle Boy and it will show either 12AU7 or 12AX7.
> 
> The current Gen2 Ember has the supercharger installed.  If you are only going to use 12AU7 or 12AX7 tubes you don't need the adapter, the adapter is for the 6SN7 tubes.
> 
> Good luck


 
 Is this Bugle Boy ok? http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMPEREX-BUGLE-BOY-6DJ8-ECC88-VACUUM-TUBE-1966-SINGLE-TUBE-SWEET-SOUND-00G-/321813086891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aed8e02ab&rmvSB=true
  
 Edit: Or this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMPEREX-BUGLE-BOY-6DJ8-ECC88-VACUUM-TUBE-1964-STRAIGHT-MAN-SINGLE-702-/321522349995
  


davida said:


> They are not bad, just so happens I currently have them in my Ember, switched out the Telefunken's yesterday.  The Telefunken has better dynamics and bass but the Gold Lion is smoother in the highs.  This is just with HE-400, all my other headphones except for HD-650 and one SennGrado have been packed, moving next week.


 
 So you do believe that it'll good for the hd700 since it's treble and highs needed to be tamed? Or the Telefunken gives better result with hd700?


----------



## DavidA

sha007 said:


> Is this Bugle Boy ok? http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMPEREX-BUGLE-BOY-6DJ8-ECC88-VACUUM-TUBE-1966-STRAIGHT-MAN-SINGLE-946-/321667266427
> 
> Edit: Or this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMPEREX-BUGLE-BOY-6DJ8-ECC88-VACUUM-TUBE-1966-SINGLE-TUBE-SWEET-SOUND-00G-/321813086891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aed8e02ab
> 
> So you do believe that it'll good for the hd700 since it's treble and highs needed to be tamed? Or the Telefunken gives better result with hd700?


 

 Both of those bugle boys are 6dj8, you want something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amperex-12AX7-ECC-83-932-Bugle-Boy-Halo-Getter-Gray-Plates-Tested-Good-Nice-/331593601339?hash=item4d3484d13b
  
 I haven't had much luck with using 6922/6dj8 tubes in the Ember, usually have channel imbalance. but they work great with my lyr2
  
 For the HD-700 the Telefunken 12au7 are the best I've found to "tame the highs" as you put it., 12ax7 are also ok but some have said that they are noisy, ymmv, for me they are pretty good, using in my BH Crack.


----------



## sha007

davida said:


> Both of those bugle boys are 6dj8, you want something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amperex-12AX7-ECC-83-932-Bugle-Boy-Halo-Getter-Gray-Plates-Tested-Good-Nice-/331593601339?hash=item4d3484d13b
> 
> I haven't had much luck with using 6922/6dj8 tubes in the Ember, usually have channel imbalance. but they work great with my lyr2
> 
> For the HD-700 the Telefunken 12au7 are the best I've found to "tame the highs" as you put it., 12ax7 are also ok but some have said that they are noisy, ymmv, for me they are pretty good, using in my BH Crack.


 
  
 Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## bbball

So last week I got this shuguang cv181-t treasure tubes. Basically it is a Chinese version of 6sn7. To my ears it sounds almost identical to the FrankenEmber. Both of them sound much better than the RCA 6sn7 IMO.


----------



## Amish

sha007 said:


> Is this Bugle Boy ok? http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMPEREX-BUGLE-BOY-6DJ8-ECC88-VACUUM-TUBE-1966-SINGLE-TUBE-SWEET-SOUND-00G-/321813086891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aed8e02ab&rmvSB=true
> 
> Edit: Or this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMPEREX-BUGLE-BOY-6DJ8-ECC88-VACUUM-TUBE-1964-STRAIGHT-MAN-SINGLE-702-/321522349995
> 
> So you do believe that it'll good for the hd700 since it's treble and highs needed to be tamed? Or the Telefunken gives better result with hd700?


 
  
  


davida said:


> Both of those bugle boys are 6dj8, you want something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amperex-12AX7-ECC-83-932-Bugle-Boy-Halo-Getter-Gray-Plates-Tested-Good-Nice-/331593601339?hash=item4d3484d13b
> 
> I haven't had much luck with using 6922/6dj8 tubes in the Ember, usually have channel imbalance. but they work great with my lyr2
> 
> For the HD-700 the Telefunken 12au7 are the best I've found to "tame the highs" as you put it., 12ax7 are also ok but some have said that they are noisy, ymmv, for me they are pretty good, using in my BH Crack.


 
  
  
 The 6dj8 works great with the Ember. I have a bugle boy 6dj8 and bugle boy 12AX (several actually) and they sound very much a like BUT the 12AX is a higher gain tube so will be louder at less gain then the 6dj8.
  
 These tubes work well for me but not sure how they will sound on the HD700.


----------



## Amish

bbball said:


> So last week I got this shuguang cv181-t treasure tubes. Basically it is a Chinese version of 6sn7. To my ears it sounds almost identical to the FrankenEmber. Both of them sound much better than the RCA 6sn7 IMO.


 
 I almost bought that tube several times. Just for the looks!


----------



## richard51

bbball said:


> So last week I got this shuguang cv181-t treasure tubes. Basically it is a Chinese version of 6sn7. To my ears it sounds almost identical to the FrankenEmber. Both of them sound much better than the RCA 6sn7 IMO.


 

 very interesting.... one adapter only and the soundstage of the 7193 ? if i understand you correctly.... what is the price of this marvel ?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  oups perhaps the price is the problem.... i had already 14 national unions tube and 2 kenrad....But if this is the same soundstage and refinement in high frequencies and bass....i will try it someday.... By the way the 7193 tubes are not nearly hot almost cold tube hence lifespan very extensive..... this tube is hot? or almost cold?


----------



## bbball

richard51 said:


> very interesting.... one adapter only and the soundstage of the 7193 ? if i understand you correctly.... what is the price of this marvel ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Yes, one adapter only. And to me personally the 7193 and this one sound equally good whether in soundstage or any other aspects. They may be different in certain points, but the differences are very subtle compare to the differences between 7193 and RCA 6sn7. I bought it from a Chinese web store and shipped to US cost me about $50 but I think you can get it from ebay about $80. This tube is not hot at all, much colder than 6dj8 and 12ax7 in my opinion. I mainly use this and 7193 with my Denon D2000 and DT1350. For my AKG K7xx, I think 6dj8 and 12ax7 are better choices.


----------



## bbball

amish said:


> I almost bought that tube several times. Just for the looks!


 
  lol, Actually they sound very very good.


----------



## richard51

bbball said:


> Yes, one adapter only. And to me personally the 7193 and this one sound equally good whether in soundstage or any other aspects. They may be different in certain points, but the differences are very subtle compare to the differences between 7193 and RCA 6sn7. I bought it from a Chinese web store and shipped to US cost me about $50 but I think you can get it from ebay about $80. This tube is not hot at all, much colder than 6dj8 and 12ax7 in my opinion. I mainly use this and 7193 with my Denon D2000 and DT1350. For my AKG K7xx, I think 6dj8 and 12ax7 are better choices.


 

 thank you very much... you answer me well on all front... very tempting tube indeed !


----------



## richard51

by the way what is the name and link for this chineese merchant ?


bbball said:


> lol, Actually they sound very very good.


----------



## connieflyer

I bought a KenRad  VT231 1944 vintage, new tube and it was sensational, but after the twin 7193's I prefer them.  I have gone back several times to the KenRad and Rca VT231's and several other 6sn7's as well as these
  

 1-6h1n-stock tube
 1-6gu7
 2-6h6n-ecc 99
 2-Tungsram E80cc
 1-Tesla ecc 802s
 2-Conn 12au7a
 1-Westinghouse black plate 12au7
 1-Westinghouse 12av7
 2-Telefunken 12at7/ecc81
 1-JJ 12ax7
 1-sylanvania 12ax7wa
 1-Edicron pcc88 7dj8
 1-Electro-harmonix 6922
 3-12bh7a- rca,ge,standard brand
 3-6dj8-Sylvania Black,Amperex, Jan Sylvania Green
 3-Amperex 12at7 ecc81
 1-Mullard cv4024
 1-Mullard 12at7 6681
 1-Telefunken 12at7
 2-Amperex bboy 12at7
 1-Tungsol 12ax7 5751
 1-Jan chs 6ns7gt
 1-RCA6ns7gtb
 and still go back to the 7193's.  I just like them better.  I guess I may as well sell off the rest I have some nice amerperex bugle boys as well.
  
 Everyo0ne is different and between what "they" hear and their equipment, best is a personal thing,


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


> I bought a KenRad  VT231 1944 vintage, new tube and it was sensational, but after the twin 7193's I prefer them.  I have gone back several times to the KenRad and Rca VT231's and several other 6sn7's as well as these
> 
> 
> 1-6h1n-stock tube
> ...


 

 i am sure Bbball has discovered a marvellous tube yes....But the 7193 has a so marvellous sound in my speakers and ears ....And their price is lowest than the shuguang cv-181 ... I note that it will be interesting to try one for sure...But like you ( less than your collections though)  no tubes was like the 7193...I had 16 of them....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Your testimony is precious for my budget though


----------



## bbball

richard51 said:


> by the way what is the name and link for this chineese merchant ?


 
  
  
 So here is the link to the Chinese merchant.
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.4.2eurov&id=39944964088&ns=1&abbucket=13#detail
  
 The problem is they don't ship to US by themselves. I used a third party website to get them: http://www.cnstorm.com/ 
  
 And you don't need to pay extra money to them except the shipping fee. This way may be too complex if you don't know Chinese.....So I suggest you can get them from ebay even though it's 30 dollars more, it's a much easier way.


----------



## richard51

thank you my friend for all......


----------



## bbball

connieflyer said:


> I bought a KenRad  VT231 1944 vintage, new tube and it was sensational, but after the twin 7193's I prefer them.  I have gone back several times to the KenRad and Rca VT231's and several other 6sn7's as well as these
> 
> 
> 1-6h1n-stock tube
> ...


 
  
 I totally agree with you connieflyer. I just saying that to myself 7193 and CV 181-T sound equally good especially for my Denon D2000. I have tried 12 different tubes so far and they all sound different. One thing I usually think about is that some NOS tubes are very expensive and I believe that must be for a reason. So if I were you, I will consider to sell all the tubes I don't like and only buy the highest rated tubes from other people's experiment even though it may be expensive. Again, it's just my personal thought.


----------



## bbball

richard51 said:


> thank you my friend for all......


 
  
 You're welcome!


----------



## connieflyer

bbball said:


> I totally agree with you connieflyer. I just saying that to myself 7193 and CV 181-T sound equally good especially for my Denon D2000. I have tried 12 different tubes so far and they all sound different. One thing I usually think about is that some NOS tubes are very expensive and I believe that must be for a reason. So if I were you, I will consider to sell all the tubes I don't like and only buy the highest rated tubes from other people's experiment even though it may be expensive. Again, it's just my personal thought.


 

 The Ken-Rad tube I mentioned was my most expensive, black glass looks great sounds great, $80.00, was worth it to me, at the time, until going to the 7193.  Hate not to use it but at 71 I only have so much time left to enjoy the music!


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


> The Ken-Rad tube I mentioned was my most expensive, black glass looks great sounds great, $80.00, was worth it to me, at the time, until going to the 7193.  Hate not to use it but at 71 I only have so much time left to enjoy the music!


 

 i understand you, already 64 ...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







I will not try now the shunguang, because like you i am totally satisfied by the extra organic detailed soundstage of this tube, also no heat, longevity, price....and beauty also a different one but the beauty of a monster....FrankenEmber  is freakingly beautiful.....I am glad to know though that if the adapter break, i will perhaps try the chineese tube before buying an another one for my 16 (7193 )
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




tubes


----------



## richard51

this is a very interesting and good analysis of the shuguang cv-181 tube....
  
 An interesting detail :
 «_Typical *6SN7* heaters draw about *0.6A* and the *CV181z* draws about *0.9A (900mA)*_»
 Hence this tube will be hotter in the Ember than the 2 7193 i think , 30 % hotter i think.... the lifespan of the 7193 must be very long and its important to me because i listen my gear 40 hours almost by weeks...total 2000 hours by year....its costly if i had tubes with  lifespan under 1000 hours...
  
  
  
_*http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_e.html*_


----------



## richard51

i had discovered that about the life span of the shanguang :
  
_*Grantfidelity
 The Treasure tubes lifespan:
 - large power tubes - 3,000-5,000 hours under normal use
 - preamp tubes - 5,000-8,000 hours under normal use*_
  
 Someone here had an idea about the lifespan of the 7193 tube?


----------



## bbball

richard51 said:


> this is a very interesting and good analysis of the shuguang cv-181 tube....
> 
> An interesting detail :
> «_Typical *6SN7* heaters draw about *0.6A* and the *CV181z* draws about *0.9A (900mA)*_»
> ...


 
  
  
 I don't consider the lifespan so much like you lol. Another thing is mine is CV181t, which is a upgrade version of CV181z.


----------



## richard51

bbball said:


> I don't consider the lifespan so much like you lol. Another thing is mine is CV181t, which is a upgrade version of CV181z.


 
 Perhaps i am considering the lifespan because i am too old .....


----------



## bbball

richard51 said:


> Perhaps i am considering the lifespan because i am too old .....


 
  
  
 No one is too old~


----------



## melkenshawn

bbball said:


> Yes, one adapter only. And to me personally the 7193 and this one sound equally good whether in soundstage or any other aspects. They may be different in certain points, but the differences are very subtle compare to the differences between 7193 and RCA 6sn7. I bought it from a Chinese web store and shipped to US cost me about $50 but I think you can get it from ebay about $80. This tube is not hot at all, much colder than 6dj8 and 12ax7 in my opinion. I mainly use this and 7193 with my Denon D2000 and DT1350. For my AKG K7xx, I think 6dj8 and 12ax7 are better choices.


 
 So i have a version 1 ember right now. In order to use this tube, i will just have to get a *ECC88 6922 6DJ8 TO 6SN7 6N8P CV181 TUBE CONVERTER ADAPTER** *right?


----------



## DecentLevi

Well, we seem to all agree on the dual 7193 'Franken Ember' setup being the best / most refined sound! I also agree - after trying 13 6SN7 tubes from assorted brands, I still think the 7193's come out on top! More organic / lifelike, fluid and while there are other 6SN7's that are more clinically-analytical, these are more resolving IMO.
  
 However I keep mentioning '7193 tubes' in the general sense, because, at least myself and another experience member agree that of the 3 7193's avail. (Nat'll Union, RCA and Ken-Rad), these all sound very similar. And in fact, the reason I'm not mentioning Ken-Rad as my favorite anymore is because I have found the RCA 7193's to be slightly more 'natural' sounding - a fairly thorough A/B between my Ken-Rad & RCA 7193's has given me the impression that the Ken-Rads, while quite pleasing, full of energy, detailed and refined across the board - seem to be perhaps a smidget on the 'colored' / euphonic side, whereas the RCAs keep everything that was good about the Ken-Rads, but with a slight dry-ness in the place of the coloration that I perceived.
  
 On the other hand I really value keeping my several favorite 6SN7 tubes for a change in sound signature, be it more analytical, more laid back, more/less bassy, etc.
 Furthermore upon more experimentation with daisy-chaining (amp-to-amp; Beresford Capella amp to Ember 2.0 via headphone to RCA Y-cable), it seems this setup has better synergy with 6SN7 tubes whereas it seems somewhat too clinical / fast with the 7193 tubes. So with 6SN7 tubes that may have be slightly less refined than the 7193 tubes coupled with the extra detail / soundstage of an additional pre-amp, I get some great sound that can sound more pleasing to my ears than the 7193s - at times, depending on the music.
  
 Also what were you guys saying about the  CV 181-T tube? Is this compatible with the Ember via the 6SN7 adapter?


----------



## richard51

decentlevi said:


> Well, we seem to all agree on the dual 7193 'Franken Ember' setup being the best / most refined sound! I also agree - after trying 13 6SN7 tubes from assorted brands, I still think the 7193's come out on top! More organic / lifelike, fluid and while there are other 6SN7's that are more clinically-analytical, these are more resolving IMO.
> 
> However I keep mentioning '7193 tubes' in the general sense, because, at least myself and another experience member agree that of the 3 7193's avail. (Nat'll Union, RCA and Ken-Rad), these all sound very similar. And in fact, the reason I'm not mentioning Ken-Rad as my favorite anymore is because I have found the RCA 7193's to be slightly more 'natural' sounding - a fairly thorough A/B between my Ken-Rad & RCA 7193's has given me the impression that the Ken-Rads, while quite pleasing, full of energy, detailed and refined across the board - seem to be perhaps a smidget on the 'colored' / euphonic side, whereas the RCAs keep everything that was good about the Ken-Rads, but with a slight dry-ness in the place of the coloration that I perceived.
> 
> ...


 
 interesting opinions thanks.....in the precedent posts you will discover answers to your questions  and a critical review of the shanguang cv 181 tube...


----------



## Demo3

decentlevi said:


> Thanks for your suggestion.
> 
> While I don't know why the buzzing sound was only happening with my 7193 tubes, I had discovered that the problem could be because there is no 'ground' in the wiring of this house. The 3-pin power chord of my Ember is connected to a power strip which has the 3rd 'ground' pin removed to fit in the 2-pin wall connection. Another member PM'd me to tell me the most likely cause of a buzz is from free electricity running around the Ember caused by poor grounding of the PSU. So upon touching some of the exposed metal contacts like the capacitor or the RCA jacks, the buzzing was reduced. I think I'll try connecting one of those to my windowsill with a plain wire for some grounding.
> 
> ...


 

 Hey DecentLevi... Just started testing my "Franken Ember" and I also have the buzzing sound.  I noticed on mine when I pass my hand over and close to the 7193 tubes the buzz gets very loud, when I touch the top of one of the caps or another metal part like the volume knob shaft with the knob removed the buzz stops.  I have an Ember with the aluminum covers... when I place the Ember on the palm of my hand the buzz is greatly reduced also.  I tried several outlets to no satisfaction.  I will be taking it to work tomorrow to test there.  I checked the grounding of the volume pot and it is good.  They are all 3-pin plugs with ground.  If I hold a piece of solder and ground to me (not a ground to the board) the solder joint that is on the back of the power supply connection box that is attached to the Ember circuit board the buzz stops.


----------



## HOWIE13

Could anybody advise me where you are getting your 7193 to 6sn7 adapters from in the USA? Is everyone using the same make? Are there differences in sound, buzzing between different types?
 It's not easy to readily obtain them in UK-taking ages for one to arrive from China.


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> Could anybody advise me where you are getting your 7193 to 6sn7 adapters from in the USA? Is everyone using the same make? Are there differences in sound, buzzing between different types?
> It's not easy to readily obtain them in UK-taking ages for one to arrive from China.


 
  
 I'm pretty sure they're all getting them from China mate. I haven't got one myself for much the same reason as yourself.


----------



## DecentLevi

@Demo3 you're in luck, I have several solutions to reduce the buzzing sound.
  

The first most likely culprit is the tube itself. Both of my RCA 7193's were buzzing too much to handle, so I ordered another pair and after a bit of swapping I found a combination of one older and one newer tube reduced the buzz substantially. For some odd reason I've only heard a buzzing sound on about 1 of 13 6SN7 tubes, but heard it on all 3 of 3 7193 tubes - probably has something to do with the dual connection, but anyway the first solution is to try ordering a 2nd pair then see which combination of 2 tubes is quieter.
  

The next possible solution is to order another electrical connection that is more electronically isolated. I've actually not done that but have heard about it. Contact Jeremy from Garage 1217; I heard he may be working on something like that.
*EDIT*: It's called a linear power supply which I think converts it from AC to DC
  

The next solution is to connect your Ember to a larger 24v battery, but just make sure the ohms / volts match the supplied input. This will give a 100% electrically isolated connection - but it's inconvenient to charge it and is heavy. Actually I think Howie knows somthing about these two methods?
  
 Right now, I am using a combination of these two methods:
  
 * A wire taped on the top of one of Embers' capacitors and on the other side to my windowsil. If you have a metal heating vent or old steam heater with a metal coiled fixture or fireplace nearby, you can also try connecting the other end to that for improved 'grounding' 
 +
 * An inline volume limiter. I searched thoroughly and it appears that no 6.3mm to 6.3mm inline volume limiters exist, so I ordered a Shure EAADPT-KIT which is 3.5mm, then used a 'big to small' headphone adapter on one side, and a 'small to big' adapter on the other side.
  
 These two methods are reducing the 7193 tube buzzing by about 90% for me right now. The basic way is to turn on the amp with no music playing in a quiet room, then reduce the volume on the inline limiter until only a very very faint amount of buzzing can be heard - then compensate by cranking up the volume on both your computer and the amp. But I'm not sure it would be efficient to max this out too much because at a certain point you may encounter analogue clipping if the limiter is going to low extremes versus a loud input.


----------



## bbball

melkenshawn said:


> So i have a version 1 ember right now. In order to use this tube, i will just have to get a *ECC88 6922 6DJ8 TO 6SN7 6N8P CV181 TUBE CONVERTER ADAPTER** *right?


 
  
 Yes.


----------



## DecentLevi

I ordered the 6SN7 to 7193 adapter from a seller in Hong Kong. It's the adapter with a clear acrylic base that was recommended on these forums, it is truly the genuine real deal! He shipped it out the SAME DAY from Hong Kong (not China mainland), and I received it within about 5 days, to the US anyway. Click here for the eBay link for this adapter - from seller xulingmrs. It's only $30 and he has sold many, and has more than 10 available.
  
 Unless there is some major hold-up with shipping between Hong Kong and the UK, I would't see any reason not to order. Just make sure you have the 6SN7 adapter for the Ember first though - Jeremy at Garage 1217 sells these.


----------



## sha007

decentlevi said:


> I ordered the 6SN7 to 7193 adapter from a seller in Hong Kong. It's the adapter with a clear acrylic base that was recommended on these forums, it is truly the genuine real deal! He shipped it out the SAME DAY from Hong Kong (not China mainland), and I received it within about 5 days, to the US anyway. Click here for the eBay link for this adapter - from seller xulingmrs. It's only $30 and he has sold many, and has more than 10 available.
> 
> Unless there is some major hold-up with shipping between Hong Kong and the UK, I would't see any reason not to order. Just make sure you have the 6SN7 adapter for the Ember first though - Jeremy at Garage 1217 sells these.


 
 Can I buy the 6SN7 adapter from ebay instead of garage1217?


----------



## DecentLevi

Sure a simple search on eBay for 12ax7 to 6SN7 adapters brought up a lot of results


----------



## HOWIE13

sha007 said:


> Can I buy the 6SN7 adapter from ebay instead of garage1217?


 
 I think I read somewhere that for the Ember's auto heater voltage selector to work you need to get the adapter from Jeremy-but I could well be wrong. Best check with Jeremy first.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> I ordered the 6SN7 to 7193 adapter from a seller in Hong Kong. It's the adapter with a clear acrylic base that was recommended on these forums, it is truly the genuine real deal! He shipped it out the SAME DAY from Hong Kong (not China mainland), and I received it within about 5 days, to the US anyway. Click here for the eBay link for this adapter - from seller xulingmrs. It's only $30 and he has sold many, and has more than 10 available.
> 
> Unless there is some major hold-up with shipping between Hong Kong and the UK, I would't see any reason not to order. Just make sure you have the 6SN7 adapter for the Ember first though - Jeremy at Garage 1217 sells these.


 
 Yeah-I bought from the same seller-he is very good and it's not his fault the adapter has been languishing in UK customs for 2 weeks-awful!


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> @Demo3 you're in luck, I have several solutions to reduce the buzzing sound.
> 
> 
> The first most likely culprit is the tube itself. Both of my RCA 7193's were buzzing too much to handle, so I ordered another pair and after a bit of swapping I found a combination of one older and one newer tube reduced the buzz substantially. For some odd reason I've only heard a buzzing sound on about 1 of 13 6SN7 tubes, but heard it on all 3 of 3 7193 tubes - probably has something to do with the dual connection, but anyway the first solution is to try ordering a 2nd pair then see which combination of 2 tubes is quieter.
> ...


 
 Don't know about 24V. I have used 12V battery power on some set-ups, but occasionally hum can still be heard. Today I heard hum with just one out of the many tubes I have been trying out with my new Ember. To get rid of it I just had to disconnect the PS to another amplifier which wasn't even connected to anything-hum can be really weird.
 Can I ask, is the limiter between the amp and the headphone, or on the input side of the amp?
 If I ever get my hands on a 7193/6sn7 adapter it will be interesting to see if I get hum too.


----------



## DecentLevi

The volume limiter is between the headphones and the amp, right on the amp's headphone output, to reduce the buzzing while the volume pushes forward harder - no audible sound degradation either. The Shure  EAADPT-KIT limiter was the thickest cable I could find compared to the other inline limiters. And not everybody's 7193 setup has a buzzing sound either.
  
 It's still REALLY WORTH IT to go Franken Ember (7193) on Project Ember. Every single time I ever A/B it to any other type of tube or configuration, the 7193 setup wins every time without fail: more vivid / lifelike / organic sound with great amout of energy, more details & natural soundstage. Pristine, brilliant, lush, all-there and near endgame stuff. (the only reason I know there is anything better is because I've been to a few HeadFi meets)


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> The volume limiter is between the headphones and the amp, right on the amp's headphone output, to reduce the buzzing while the volume pushes forward harder - no audible sound degradation either. The Shure  EAADPT-KIT limiter was the thickest cable I could find compared to the other inline limiters. And not everybody's 7193 setup has a buzzing sound either.
> 
> It's still REALLY WORTH IT to go Franken Ember (7193) on Project Ember. Every single time I ever A/B it to any other type of tube or configuration, the 7193 setup wins every time without fail: more vivid / lifelike / organic sound with great amout of energy, more details & natural soundstage. Pristine, brilliant, lush, all-there and near endgame stuff. (the only reason I know there is anything better is because I've been to a few HeadFi meets)


 
 As ever, thanks for your help. I have used the same vol limiting technique to get rid of hiss with high sensitive, low impedance headphones. Sennheiser made a variable vol control, with channel separation, so it doubles as a balance control.(v useful for my classical stuff).
 Only problem is cable is very long, so I cut it and reterminated. Again, no fall off of sound quality, just slightly less vol, which, as you say, can be easily compensated for.
 Finally, your post makes me even more impatient to get my hands on this wretched adapter.


----------



## sha007

Since Ember's plate voltage is only 24v (highest 48v) is there any possibility that the tubes gonna last longer than the higher plate voltage amp's tubs?


----------



## ericr

Thought I'd take a moment and share my opinion on the Franken Ember / 7193 setup.
  
 We had our local meet last Saturday and I was super excited to find this setup was at the meet, and its owner was kind enough to let me try it out on my own rig (sorry I didn't catch your name).  So I plugged the beast into my Ember, turned it on, and then went listening to other gear for 20 minutes or more while the tubes warmed up.
  
 Once back at my rig I gave the FE a test run with my 1964 Ears A12 (TOTL 12 driver per side IEMs) expecting great things.  Maybe all the hype had my expectations too high, but to be honest as I listened it was kind of a let down.  Certainly no "Oh wow, way better" moment here - pretty similar to my favorite tube actually - a Sylvania 6SN7W (granted an excellent tube).  The soundstage/air seemed a little bit better, yet on the other hand the upper treble seemed rolled off a bit. 
  
 Excellent sounding? Yes! But with two caveats. First with the 6SN7W already having fantastic soundstage/air I'm not sure I'm willing to trade treble for a bit more of it.  Second, with the two setups sounding as close as they did I can't see myself dealing with the awkwardness of the Franken Ember on an ongoing basis.
  
 All IMHO, of course!
  
 -Eric


----------



## bbball

ericr said:


> Thought I'd take a moment and share my opinion on the Franken Ember / 7193 setup.
> 
> We had our local meet last Saturday and I was super excited to find this setup was at the meet, and its owner was kind enough to let me try it out on my own rig (sorry I didn't catch your name).  So I plugged the beast into my Ember, turned it on, and then went listening to other gear for 20 minutes or more while the tubes warmed up.
> 
> ...




Hi Eric, think I am the guy who gave you that 7193 lol


----------



## melkenshawn

Did anyone try out any tubes that actually needed the supercharger and got great results from it?


----------



## bbball

melkenshawn said:


> Did anyone try out any tubes that actually needed the supercharger and got great results from it?




I think super charge is just for the power supply of the tube. It will not affect the sound signature


----------



## bbball

ericr said:


> Thought I'd take a moment and share my opinion on the Franken Ember / 7193 setup.
> 
> We had our local meet last Saturday and I was super excited to find this setup was at the meet, and its owner was kind enough to let me try it out on my own rig (sorry I didn't catch your name).  So I plugged the beast into my Ember, turned it on, and then went listening to other gear for 20 minutes or more while the tubes warmed up.
> 
> ...




Also I don't like using ember to drive the IEM. I think it is too powerful for it. At least for my se846, ember will easily over drive it. The result will be very muddy sound.


----------



## melkenshawn

bbball said:


> I think super charge is just for the power supply of the tube. It will not affect the sound signature


 
 As quoted from the website "The Ember Supercharger module increases the tube heater current capacity from 500mA to well over 1A allowing many power hungry tubes to be used such as the 6n6p, 6n30p and more! Also tube warm up time is drastically decreased when using tubes requiring over 500mA!"

 Since I'm using a version 1 ember, does it mean that it cannot run the 6SN7 tubes even with the adapter?


----------



## DecentLevi

So @ericr, you were trying the Franken Ember setup from @bball?
  
 What headphones did you test it out with? I second that this amp (or at least the F.E. setup) in general may not be meant for IEMs. The Ember is such a powerful amp that's suited to drive large 'cans.
  
 I've been using the HD 650 with my F.E. setup, and THAT'S where the glorious synergy happens, as described above. But that's not to say that perhaps a 6SN7 tube like yours couldn't possibly be better. Do you have a photo of your 6SN7W tube?


----------



## HOWIE13

bbball said:


> Also I don't like using ember to drive the IEM. I think it is too powerful for it. At least for my se846, ember will easily over drive it. The result will be very muddy sound.


 
 No problem using my IE Soundmagic E10-very nice, clear sound. However, I reduce the input gain, using the attenuation module supplied with the Ember, to make full use of the vol pot and I leave the output impedance on the lowest setting. If I switch to the middle output impedance setting it does get muddy.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> So @ericr, you were trying the Franken Ember setup from @bball?
> 
> What headphones did you test it out with? I second that this amp (or at least the F.E. setup) in general may not be meant for IEMs. The Ember is such a powerful amp that's suited to drive large 'cans.
> 
> I've been using the HD 650 with my F.E. setup, and THAT'S where the glorious synergy happens, as described above. But that's not to say that perhaps a 6SN7 tube like yours couldn't possibly be better. Do you have a photo of your 6SN7W tube?


 
 If this is the tube I think it is, it costs around $250. I think Franken-Ember is a better option for me, personally, particularly as the sound is pretty similar, and the small difference could be due to differences in the rest of the kit, including the cans.


----------



## tankhuu1994

Has anyone tried pairing the ember with either the he560,hd600, or hd800? 
I just recently bought the he560 while still holding onto my hd600 along with the magni/modi combo. I want to look for a new amp upgrade and was wondering if the ember would be a good fit for it. People have been telling me to get the sunrise 3, solstice, or the polarise. But I've heard that the ember can power headphones such as the hd800 and the he6. Just want to ask because I might getting th hd800 down the road.


----------



## richard51

ericr said:


> Thought I'd take a moment and share my opinion on the Franken Ember / 7193 setup.
> 
> We had our local meet last Saturday and I was super excited to find this setup was at the meet, and its owner was kind enough to let me try it out on my own rig (sorry I didn't catch your name).  So I plugged the beast into my Ember, turned it on, and then went listening to other gear for 20 minutes or more while the tubes warmed up.
> 
> ...


 

 i understand you perfectly and if my experience with the 7193 tubes versus my 6sn7 tubes had been the same  i would had not bothered with a second adapter and all the trouble...But for me and some others there is evident transformation all across the board frequencies and soundstage... Audio is mysterious territory ...  Nobody has the same gear and nobody perceive the same thing....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 i read other posts and the Ember is not ideal choice for IEM...


----------



## btrancho

melkenshawn said:


> As quoted from the website "The Ember Supercharger module increases the tube heater current capacity from 500mA to well over 1A allowing many power hungry tubes to be used such as the 6n6p, 6n30p and more! Also tube warm up time is drastically decreased when using tubes requiring over 500mA!"
> 
> Since I'm using a version 1 ember, does it mean that it cannot run the 6SN7 tubes even with the adapter?


 

 You can certainly run the 6SN7 on your V1 Ember without the supercharger but it will only get 500ma instead of the ideal 600ma that the 6SN7 is designed for.  Adding the supercharger module is recommended and only takes a few minutes to de-solder one part and solder the superhcarger in its place - well worth the cost and effort.  Or you could send it in and Jeremy will to the job for you.
  
 I strongly recommend using Garage1217's adapter to insure proper wiring - not all eBay adapters will work.


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> i understand you perfectly and if my experience with the 7193 tubes versus my 6sn7 tubes had been the same  i would had not bothered with a second adapter and all the trouble...But for me and some others there is evident transformation all across the board frequencies and soundstage... Audio is mysterious territory ...  Nobody has the same gear and nobody perceive the same thing....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Is there any powerful, high gain, headphone amplifier that is suitable for IEM's ?


----------



## Demo3

howie13 said:


> Is there any powerful, high gain, amplifier that is suitable for IEM's ?


 
 I really like my FiiO E12 for my IEM's.  It has two gain settings, and a base boost switch.  Did not try the E12A.


----------



## HOWIE13

demo3 said:


> I really like my FiiO E12 for my IEM's.  It has two gain settings, and a base boost switch.  Did not try the E12A.


 
 I just looked up the output figures for the E12. I didn't realise it packed so much power.


----------



## Demo3

howie13 said:


> I just looked up the output figures for the E12. I didn't realise it packed so much power.


 
 Yep... It does drive my HD650 nicely although I defiantly prefer the Ember for that.
  
 I have gotten several friends hooked on the E12 because IMHO it is the single least expensive component you can add to a cheap setup to convince peeps to get rid of those *freaking* white earbuds.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Ember has too much power for IEMs.. Odd as I think Eric has been doing just that for over a year without any issues. Have any of you talked to Jeremy about that?


----------



## HOWIE13

It must depend on the IEM's too, as mine are fine with the Ember and Horizon. The only problem I occasionally find is hiss, which can usually be removed by using a lower/mid gain tube. A 12AU7 or lower is usually fine. Increasing the output impedance also removes the hiss but I don't like doing that as it seems to exaggerate the bass too much and can muddy the sound. Sometimes I use a variable resistor as a volume control on the output. Cutting the volume a fraction can remove the hiss and then I compensate by increasing the amp volume. Mostly though with a low/med gain tube it's not a problem with my Garage amps.


----------



## melkenshawn

btrancho said:


> You can certainly run the 6SN7 on your V1 Ember without the supercharger but it will only get 500ma instead of the ideal 600ma that the 6SN7 is designed for.  Adding the supercharger module is recommended and only takes a few minutes to de-solder one part and solder the superhcarger in its place - well worth the cost and effort.  Or you could send it in and Jeremy will to the job for you.
> 
> I strongly recommend using Garage1217's adapter to insure proper wiring - not all eBay adapters will work.


 
 Actually i was kinda interested with the shugang tube posted earlier, the cv 181-t. Do you think that can work effectively on my ember 1 with a 6SN7 adapter? Thank you for your help so far!


----------



## btrancho

melkenshawn said:


> Actually i was kinda interested with the shugang tube posted earlier, the cv 181-t. Do you think that can work effectively on my ember 1 with a 6SN7 adapter? Thank you for your help so far!


 

 Yes, I have that CV181 and use it in my Ember occasionally.  I like my Sylvania VT-231 better, but my CV181 is as good as some other 6SN7s that I've tried.


----------



## Solrighal

btrancho said:


> Yes, I have that CV181 and use it in my Ember occasionally.  I like my Sylvania VT-231 better, but my CV181 is as good as some other 6SN7s that I've tried.


 
  
 Would it be fair to say that all the VT-231 derivatives are superior? My GE 6SN7GT VT-231 is noticeably superior to all my other standard 6SN7's.


----------



## tankhuu1994

Where do you guys buy the tubes? I've heard much appraise regarding the 7193 but have no clue where to buy them


----------



## Demo3

tankhuu1994 said:


> Where do you guys buy the tubes? I've heard much appraise regarding the 7193 but have no clue where to buy them


 
 I did search on ebay for 7193 tubes and got plenty of hits... got mine here.  I actually order 2 and they sent me 4.
 They needed a good cleaning but otherwise no problems.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-7193-Ken-Rad-triodo-anno-1942-made-in-USA-tube-valve-Valvula-/261961546296?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_101&hash=item3cfe1ffa38


----------



## btrancho

solrighal said:


> Would it be fair to say that all the VT-231 derivatives are superior? My GE 6SN7GT VT-231 is noticeably superior to all my other standard 6SN7's.


 

 I'd agree, but my experience with 6SN7s is somewhat limited to 5 or so tubes I've had a chance to try.  The VT-231s were supposedly the best mil-spec tested 6SN7GT tubes of each run.  I was pleased to get mine from an estate sale listing on eBay for $20.  It looked NOS in the original box from May, 1944
  
 My Shuguang Black treasure CV181 is very good, too.  I was lucky and got it for free after a buddy bought an expensive matched pair from Psvane but proceeded to drop one as he was doing the initial installation in his amp.  It sat in a drawer for a couple of years and he gave it to me as he had moved on to a new amplifier in the interim.  I'm not sure they are worth the premium prices asked and many of the cheaper ones you see on eBay and Alibaba are practically factory seconds in term of testing.


----------



## Solrighal

Yeah, that's my understanding too. I have a Sylvania 6SN7GTA 'Chrome Dome' that's damned good but every time I use it I end up playing something that I know would benefit from the GE so I switch back and it stays in place for a long time. Money's the problem though, at least for me. I was lucky enough to be gifted my VT-231 over on DIYAH. I have a feeling I couldn't have afforded it otherwise.
  
 In other news - thanks a million for the knob recommendation. I love my one & it's proving to be extremely popular.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Would it be fair to say that all the VT-231 derivatives are superior? My GE 6SN7GT VT-231 is noticeably superior to all my other standard 6SN7's.


 
 I think the V-231 code simply means they were manufactured during the Second World War, mostly 1942-44.
 I don't think they were necessarily any different from the surrounding years' productions. What the code does tell us is that they are relatively old tubes, made at a time when manufacturing was of a more consistent high quality. At least that's my understanding.


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> I think the V-231 simply means they were manufactured during the Second World War, mostly 1942-44.
> I don't think they were necessarily any different from the surrounding year's productions. What the code does tell us is that they are relatively old tubes, made at a time when manufacturing was of a more consistent high quality. At least that's my understanding.


 
  
 You may well be right. I did think like Bob though that they were selected for military use because they were high performers. My GE dates from 1945 & was used by the Canadian Armed Forces. In what I do not know.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> You may well be right. I did think like Bob though that they were selected for military use because they were high performers. My GE dates from 1945 & was used by the Canadian Armed Forces. In what I do not know.


 
 I expect they were particularly careful with their construction during the war anyway. The other thing I read is that the 4 major USA companies relabelled a lot between themselves, so unless you can identify any original factory codes or you are an expert in the construction of each manufacturer's tubes you can't always be certain which of the four actually made the tube.


----------



## HOWIE13

demo3 said:


> I did search on ebay for 7193 tubes and got plenty of hits... got mine here.  I actually order 2 and they sent me 4.
> They needed a good cleaning but otherwise no problems.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-7193-Ken-Rad-triodo-anno-1942-made-in-USA-tube-valve-Valvula-/261961546296?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_101&hash=item3cfe1ffa38


 
 I bought there too. He is a very good seller. I gave those weird metal tops a good clean with deoxit. They came up a treat. Now just waiting for an adapter.


----------



## Solrighal

Maybe UK customs thinks it's a bomb. Remember, a shoe has them thinking.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Maybe UK customs thinks it's a bomb. Remember, a shoe has them thinking.


 
 That's amazing you thought that because I said the same to the wife yesterday!
 Those four wires sticking out do look kind of spooky and it maybe waiting for clearance by the counter-terrorist guys
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## melkenshawn

demo3 said:


> I did search on ebay for 7193 tubes and got plenty of hits... got mine here.  I actually order 2 and they sent me 4.
> They needed a good cleaning but otherwise no problems.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-7193-Ken-Rad-triodo-anno-1942-made-in-USA-tube-valve-Valvula-/261961546296?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_101&hash=item3cfe1ffa38


 
 Would you like to sell me the extra 2 tubes


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> That's amazing you thought that because I said the same to the wife yesterday!
> Those four wires sticking out do look kind of spooky and it maybe waiting for clearance by the anti-terrorist guys
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Customs are idiots. My Ember took three days to get from the US to Scotland & a further three days to get to my house. I would put nothing past this State.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Customs are idiots. My Ember took three days to get from the US to Scotland & a further three days to get to my house. I would put nothing past this State.


 
 I'm having a bad run just now as Belgium Post ( why Belgium Post I have no idea), have also lost a cable I ordered from China. If the seller has to resend I will certainly suggest he avoid Belgium!
 PS. I collect straight from the local Parcel Force depot for Garage amps as I have heard so many stories of Parcel Force losing or breaking things in the last mile of delivery, after the packages have managed to travel thousands of miles without any problem.


----------



## Solrighal

Parcel Force are actually pretty good compared to some. The worst I've experienced are UPS & UKMail. I worked with all these companies on a daily basis so I know what I'm talking about. The absolute worst, by a country mile, were City Link. I say 'were' because they went bust. For good reason.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Parcel Force are actually pretty good compared to some. The worst I've experienced are UPS & UKMail. I worked with all these companies on a daily basis so I know what I'm talking about. The absolute worst, by a country mile, were City Link. I say 'were' because they went bust. For good reason.


 
 At least with Parcel Force you can go to the depot. With Yodel and Hermes you have no idea where your stuff is.


----------



## richard51

howie13 said:


> Is there any powerful, high gain, headphone amplifier that is suitable for IEM's ?


 

 i am not connoisseur in audio... But the subtle audible change from tube to tube can be less audible if there is to much gain in an amp not designed in the first place for IEM... Yes you could adapt the Ember for IEM... but is it ideal to measure the  audible tubes variations ? i know nothing in  audio engineering but i bet  : no...
  
 I am sure that there is better amp than Ember for IEM... i bet yes.....


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> i am not connoisseur in audio... But the subtle audible change from tube to tube can be less audible if there is to much gain in an amp not designed in the first place for IEM... Yes you could adapt the Ember for IEM... but is it ideal to measure the  audible tubes variations ? i know nothing in  audio engineering but i bet  : no...
> 
> I am sure that there is better amp than Ember for IEM... i bet yes.....


 
 I'm sure you are correct.  I had actually forgotten about some of the Fiio's, even though I have an E17 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Anyway, I guess most people wouldn't buy a Garage amp to specifically use with IEM's anyway.


----------



## Solrighal

I was under the impression that the Fiio E12a is specifically designed for use with IEM's. That's what I'd buy.


----------



## bbball

howie13 said:


> Is there any powerful, high gain, headphone amplifier that is suitable for IEM's ?


 
 For my SE846, basically there is no need of AMP to drive it. The sensitivity of SE 846 is 114 dB SPL/mW, which is insanely easy to drive. The better source, the better quality. For myself, the best result would be using my iBasso D10 as source/amp since D10 has very clean sound and small amount of output power. The second best setup would be using it on my iPhone and the sound is also way better than I using it on Ember or FiiO E12.


----------



## bbball

solrighal said:


> I was under the impression that the Fiio E12a is specifically designed for use with IEM's. That's what I'd buy.


 
  
  
 I agree with you. The E12 is still too powerful for a good IEM.


----------



## HOWIE13

I only use SoundMagic E10 and only when I'm outside walking and they are very forgiving and easy to drive. I usually just use my Fiio player or ClipZip, without extra amping, but travelling on a long train journey, or on holiday is an opportunity for me to use an amp. I have an E17, which I like because of all the settings, and I tried the original E12 a while back and didn't like it (can't remember why). I didn't realise Fiio had modified it to an E12a and lowered the output to make it more suitable for IEM's. They are  a responsive company-like Garage in that respect.


----------



## bbball

howie13 said:


> I only use SoundMagic E10 and only when I'm outside walking and they are very forgiving and easy to drive. I usually just use my Fiio player or ClipZip, without extra amping, but travelling on a long train journey, or on holiday is an opportunity for me to use an amp. I have an E17, which I like because of all the settings, and I tried the original E12 a while back and didn't like it (can't remember why). I didn't realise Fiio had modified it to an E12a and lowered the output to make it more suitable for IEM's. They are certainly a very responsive company-like Garage in that respect.


 
 Compare to E12, E12a has different OPAMP that gives E12a less distortion than E12 meanwhile make it less powerful. I think one easy way to tell if your IEM is overdrive or not is the background noise. If you heard very obvious background noise then it probably overdrived. Some headphone may  heard very good after overdrived but some may not. It's just my personal thought.


----------



## HOWIE13

bbball said:


> Compare to E12, E12a has different OPAMP that gives E12a less distortion than E12 meanwhile make it less powerful. I think one easy way to tell if your IEM is overdrive or not is the background noise. If you heard very obvious background noise then it probably overdrived. Some headphone may  heard very good after overdrived but some may not. It's just my personal thought.


 
 Absolutely-and with me liking classical means lots of quiet passages and gaps in the sound to hear any hiss. Once I have heard any hiss or hum, I can never ignore it like some people are able to.


----------



## ericr

bbball said:


> Hi Eric, think I am the guy who gave you that 7193 lol


 

 THANKS!  I really appreciate it.
  
 Sorry I didn't catch your name or introduce myself.


----------



## melkenshawn

decentlevi said:


> I ordered the 6SN7 to 7193 adapter from a seller in Hong Kong. It's the adapter with a clear acrylic base that was recommended on these forums, it is truly the genuine real deal! He shipped it out the SAME DAY from Hong Kong (not China mainland), and I received it within about 5 days, to the US anyway. Click here for the eBay link for this adapter - from seller xulingmrs. It's only $30 and he has sold many, and has more than 10 available.
> 
> Unless there is some major hold-up with shipping between Hong Kong and the UK, I would't see any reason not to order. Just make sure you have the 6SN7 adapter for the Ember first though - Jeremy at Garage 1217 sells these.


 
 What i don't get is that why dont people just buy this instead? 

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/191552830664

 That way you get to only utilize 1 adapter for the franken ember setup, instead of 2.


----------



## connieflyer

Because most of us started out using the 6sn7 ergo the adapter.


----------



## Solrighal

connieflyer said:


> Because most of us started out using the 6sn7 ergo the adapter.


 
  
 Yeah, that's about it. Jeremy's 6SN7 adapter is top quality too, if only he'd start building these 7193 adapters I might be tempted to give it a go.


----------



## bbball

ericr said:


> THANKS!  I really appreciate it.
> 
> Sorry I didn't catch your name or introduce myself.


 
  It's fine, lol. You can call me Han.


----------



## DecentLevi

melkenshawn said:


> What i don't get is that why dont people just buy this instead?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/191552830664
> 
> That way you get to only utilize 1 adapter for the franken ember setup, instead of 2.


 
 For some of us it's because we didn't know a single adapter existed for the 7193's. But the benefit of having both really is that we can also roll with the 6SN7's


----------



## ericr

bbball said:


> Also I don't like using ember to drive the IEM. I think it is too powerful for it. At least for my se846, ember will easily over drive it. The result will be very muddy sound.


 
  
 Dang, didn't know you had the se846 too.  I've wanted to try those for quite a while now. 
  
 I don't understand what you mean about the Ember over driving IEMs.  The power output is controlled by the volume control and at lower volume levels the power output is appropriate for IEMs.
  
 I'm wondering if you are using the "Low R" output impedance setting when listening to IEMs?  If not, that might be the problem.  You probably already know this, but with most IEMs the bass will sound muddy/flabby if powered by an amp/source with not having a very low output impedance.  Thankfully the "Low R" setting on the Ember gives us an output impedance .1 Ohm (yes, one-tenth of an Ohm)!  I've not seen another amp or source with a lower output impedance.
  
 FWIW, the Ember is wonderful with my TDK BA-200, Earsonics SM64, 1964 Ears V6-Stage and A12.  The same was true for the Noble K12 I was able to demo for 4 days last summer.  Do you know the impedance of the se846?


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Yeah, that's about it. Jeremy's 6SN7 adapter is top quality too, if only he'd start building these 7193 adapters I might be tempted to give it a go.


 
 I've already bent Jeremy's ear in that direction. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Nothing imminent-maybe later in the year.


----------



## HOWIE13

ericr said:


> Dang, didn't know you had the se846 too.  I've wanted to try those for quite a while now.
> 
> I don't understand what you mean about the Ember over driving IEMs.  The power output is controlled by the volume control and at lower volume levels the power output is appropriate for IEMs.
> 
> ...


 
 The answer to your question about impedance is not straightforward for the 846 
 See answer 3 in link below. 
 http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5655/~/se846-vs-se530-vs-w60


----------



## ericr

decentlevi said:


> So @ericr, you were trying the Franken Ember setup from @bball?
> 
> What headphones did you test it out with? I second that this amp (or at least the F.E. setup) in general may not be meant for IEMs. The Ember is such a powerful amp that's suited to drive large 'cans.
> 
> I've been using the HD 650 with my F.E. setup, and THAT'S where the glorious synergy happens, as described above. But that's not to say that perhaps a 6SN7 tube like yours couldn't possibly be better. Do you have a photo of your 6SN7W tube?


 
  
 At the meet I was using my 1964 Ears A12.  In case you're not familiar, or others reading, it's a 12 driver per side (4 bass, 4 mid, 4 high) IEM.
  
 Regarding you comment "The Ember is such a powerful amp that's suited to drive large 'cans.", I agree it's great with the large headphone. I don't own the HD 650, but I've heard the Ember's sister amp the Sunrise III really make the HD 650 sing VERY impressively (see posts from AtomicBob for more info, this guy is an Acoustical Engineer and really knows his stuff).
  
 On the other hand, this doesn't mean the Ember isn't also suited for IEMs.  I'm pretty sure the "Low R" output impedance setting of .1 wasn't added to the Ember with large cans in mind.  Actually, that's the beauty off the Ember - it's multiple user changeable settings and the flexibility they bring - to drive almost anything well.  FWIW, I also have some large cans, Beyerdynamic T90 and HiFiMan HE-560, and had the Beyer T1 for a month that were returned to Amazon.  Actually I just sold the T90 this week and the HE-560 are next to go.  Why?  Because I never use them.  Why?  Because my IEMs sound better, driven by the Ember.  
  
 No shortage of synergy in here IEM land either!
  
 Here's  the tube:
  

  
 In addition to this tube (which I used at the meet), I've really been enjoying a Sylvania GB 6SN7WGT that has been graciously let to me by another Head-Fi member, and I'm breaking in a Sylvania 6SN7GTA that looks a lot like the 6SN7W in the picture above that is showing good promise as well.
  
 -Eric


----------



## ericr

howie13 said:


> The answer to your question about impedance is not straightforward for the 846
> See answer 3 in link below.
> http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5655/~/se846-vs-se530-vs-w60


 
  
 Thanks for the link!
  
 So the se846 has an impedance of 9 Ohms.  That is REALLY low and should be best driven using the "Low R" setting on the Ember.


----------



## bbball

ericr said:


> Dang, didn't know you had the se846 too.  I've wanted to try those for quite a while now.
> 
> I don't understand what you mean about the Ember over driving IEMs.  The power output is controlled by the volume control and at lower volume levels the power output is appropriate for IEMs.
> 
> ...


 
 I have to say you are right. I originally thought the higher output impedance setting, the less power output. And it should make the headphone less bassy. So when I heard the muddy sound from 846 by using the high output impedance setting I thought ember over drove the 846. I did tried the low output impedance setting at that time but it gave me very loud background noise through whatever tubes. Then I just tried the low output impedance setting again, and the 846 do sound much clearer compare to the high output impedance setting if I can ignore the loud background noise. But even like that, it still not sound as clear as I use it on my iPhone. The impedance of 846 is only 9 ohm, I think that's probably why I heard so much background noises.


----------



## ericr

howie13 said:


> If this is the tube I think it is, it costs around $250. I think Franken-Ember is a better option for me, personally, particularly as the sound is pretty similar, and the small difference could be due to differences in the rest of the kit, including the cans.


 
  
 No not a 6SN7W metal base.  You're right though about the price of the metal base tubes as I've really wanted one for a while now but kept loosing eBay auctions that end up at crazy prices.  Mine is a black base 6SN7W that cost me $43.


----------



## DecentLevi

ericr said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Eric, you're missing a few letters _before _and possibly _after _the model number. You said Sylvania 6SN7W, but this is actually JAN-CHS-6SN7W... Is this actually a JAN CHS 6SN7 WGT? Would you please check?


----------



## ericr

howie13 said:


> Is there any powerful, high gain, headphone amplifier that is suitable for IEM's ?


 
  
 Actually, yes!   There was another post on this this thread explaining a few of the unique features of the Ember that make it work well with IEMs as well as full sized cans:
  


howie13 said:


> No problem using my IE Soundmagic E10-very nice, clear sound. However, I reduce the input gain, using the attenuation module supplied with the Ember, to make full use of the vol pot and I leave the output impedance on the lowest setting. If I switch to the middle output impedance setting it does get muddy.


 
  
 Thanks Howie13 for sharing some settings helpful when using the Ember with IEMs (and for answering your own question)!


----------



## DecentLevi

A message for the Sea-town members of this thread:
  
 Hey I've realised at least 3 of you here are in Seattle @bbball, @tankhuu1994, @Soundsgoodtome
  
 Here is a link to a the impressions thread from a recent HeadFi meet in Seattle recently. Check it out - I'm sure you can meet some of the other members locally or PM Big Poppa about when he's gonna put on the next meet. He seems cool and the meets seem very informal with beer and unique rigs:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/775709/2015-seattle-redhook-meet-impressions
  
 I'm from Seattle but I chose not to live there usually.


----------



## ericr

decentlevi said:


> Eric, you're missing a few letters _before _and possibly _after _the model number. You said Sylvania 6SN7W, but this is actually JAN-CHS-6SN7W... Is this actually a JAN CHS 6SN7 WGT? Would you please check?


 
  
 The base is printed just as you stated, no "GT" at the end.  "JAN" stands for Joint Army Navy, "CHS" was the government designation for Sylvania.
  
  
 Etched into the top of the tube within the octagon typical to Sylvania reads:
  
    6SN7
      W
  
 The top of the 6SN7WGT I have reads:
  
     6SN7
     WGT


----------



## HOWIE13

ericr said:


> No not a 6SN7W metal base.  You're right though about the price of the metal base tubes as I've really wanted one for a while now but kept loosing eBay auctions that end up at crazy prices.  Mine is a black base 6SN7W that cost me $43.


 
 That's a relief! I will try and buy one but only the expensive ones available on UK eBay website just now.
 I have tried a Sylvania 6SN7GT VT231 and they are excellent tubes too. In general, I think the year of manufacture is probably very important with some of these 6SN7 tubes as well, and that's not always very easy to ascertain-except with the VT 231's of course.


----------



## bbball

decentlevi said:


> A message for the Sea-town members of this thread:
> 
> Hey I've realised at least 3 of you here are in Seattle @bbball, @tankhuu1994, @Soundsgoodtome
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks DecentLevi. Actually I did and that's how I met Eric lol.


----------



## sha007

Can anyone tell me the price of a single TELEFUNKEN 12AU7 ECC82 tube?


----------



## Demo3

sha007 said:


> Can anyone tell me the price of a single TELEFUNKEN 12AU7 ECC82 tube?


 
 Found several hits on eBay for around $70.00. for a single tube.
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TELEFUNKEN-12AU7-ECC82-VACUUM-TUBE-SINGLE-1962-DIAMOND-BOTTOM-PRECISE-TONE-T07G-/321820451291


----------



## DavidA

demo3 said:


> Found several hits on eBay for around $70.00. for a single tube.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TELEFUNKEN-12AU7-ECC82-VACUUM-TUBE-SINGLE-1962-DIAMOND-BOTTOM-PRECISE-TONE-T07G-/321820451291


 

 A little on the high side but the tube looks in good condition from the picture.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

We were all there lol

Maybe not tankuu



decentlevi said:


> A message for the Sea-town members of this thread:
> 
> Hey I've realised at least 3 of you here are in Seattle @bbball
> , @tankhuu1994
> ...


----------



## sha007

davida said:


> A little on the high side but the tube looks in good condition from the picture.


 
 What did you mean by "the high side"?
  
 How about this one : http://www.ebay.com/itm/221620336657?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 And is the price okay?
  
 Thanks in advance.


----------



## melkenshawn

sha007 said:


> What did you mean by "the high side"?
> 
> How about this one : http://www.ebay.com/itm/221620336657?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...


 
  
 On "the high side" means slightly more expensive than the norm.


----------



## connieflyer

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken-12au7-ECC82-SMOOTH-plates-tube-Diamond-Test-NOS-/201340092780..
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken-12au7-ECC82-RIBBED-plates-tube-Diamond-Test-NOS-/201340092606...
  
 Both of these look good to me, and I have used Tubemaze for several years and never had a problem
  
 The ad says that 70% of the value of the tube is the condition of the lettering I suppose if you are going to show it off or resell the tube right away, maybe, but it won't sound any different with or without the silkscreen.
  
*2.*    *PLEASE NOTE:  Tube silkscreen (lettering on the tubes) is VERY fragile. It can be wiped off and destroyed VERY easily. If you wipe off the silkscreen while handling the tube you diminish their value by up to 70%. DO NOT handle the tubes or hold them from the cylinder. ALWAYS hold them from the ENDS. If you are returning tubes and they are not in the same condition cosmetically I cannot give you a full refund. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.*


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken-12au7-ECC82-SMOOTH-plates-tube-Diamond-Test-NOS-/201340092780..
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken-12au7-ECC82-RIBBED-plates-tube-Diamond-Test-NOS-/201340092606...
> 
> ...


 
 cancelled


----------



## sha007

connieflyer said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken-12au7-ECC82-SMOOTH-plates-tube-Diamond-Test-NOS-/201340092780..
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken-12au7-ECC82-RIBBED-plates-tube-Diamond-Test-NOS-/201340092606...
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the direction.


----------



## connieflyer

Glad I could help


----------



## Tunkejazz

melkenshawn said:


> What i don't get is that why dont people just buy this instead?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/191552830664
> 
> ...




Is that one tall enough so it can be used with the top plate of the Ember on? The 6sn7 version gets some extra height from the adapter itself...not considering buying any of them, just out of curiosity


----------



## DecentLevi

Well from comparing the photo of the 'Franken Ember' setup to the one of this adapter, I would go out on a limb to say that this should fit quite perfectly. The F.E. setup is quite extra tall anyway. But if you get only this adapter then you will be limiting yourself to only the 7193 tubes, which have only 3 types. A lot of us like 6SN7 tubes, and I for one amd still on a bit more of a quest to find the golden one - although I like the 7193's.


----------



## Tunkejazz

decentlevi said:


> Well from comparing the photo of the 'Franken Ember' setup to the one of this adapter, I would go out on a limb to say that this should fit quite perfectly. The F.E. setup is quite extra tall anyway. But if you get only this adapter then you will be limiting yourself to only the 7193 tubes, which have only 3 types. A lot of us like 6SN7 tubes, and I for one amd still on a bit more of a quest to find the golden one - although I like the 7193's.




That is not a problem, I already have the 6sn7 adapter


----------



## Tunkejazz

BTW, I should thank Johan-71 who prepared a small selection of different tubes that I could borrow and test on my Ember(it turns out that we live in the same city ) . So far I am loving the Sylvania 6sn7wgt brown base with my Denon D2000. Tomorrow I will test the various 6sn7gt with my HE400i


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> That is not a problem, I already have the 6sn7 adapter


 
 Was your  7193 to 6SN7 adapter from Garage or did you buy from Hong Kong? I was under the impression you had to have the Garage adapter for the Ember.
 Error correction:meant 6SN7 to Ember adapter-apologies.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> BTW, I should thank @Johan-71 who prepared a small selection of different tubes that I could borrow and test on my Ember(it turns out that we live in the same city ) . So far I am loving the Sylvania 6sn7wgt brown base with my Denon D2000. Tomorrow I will test the various 6sn7gt with my HE400i


 
 Looking forward to your evaluations. I have an HE400 and will be very interested in your comparisons. Thanks.
 PS. Sorry I didn't combine this post with the one above.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Well from comparing the photo of the 'Franken Ember' setup to the one of this adapter, I would go out on a limb to say that this should fit quite perfectly. The F.E. setup is quite extra tall anyway. But if you get only this adapter then you will be limiting yourself to only the 7193 tubes, which have only 3 types. A lot of us like 6SN7 tubes, and I for one amd still on a bit more of a quest to find the golden one - although I like the 7193's.


 
 cancelled comment


----------



## Tunkejazz

howie13 said:


> cancelled comment



I got my 6sn7 adaptor from Jeremy along with the Ember. But I was talking about the 7193 adapter. I can be found from 7193 to 6sn7 or from 7193 to 12ax7 (and similar). Would the latter work on the Ember? As I said, I am not planning to buy one at the moment, but I want to understand the options for the future!


----------



## Solrighal

I'd hold off a bit anyway. You never know what might happen.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> I got my 6sn7 adaptor from Jeremy along with the Ember. But I was talking about the 7193 adapter. I can be found from 7193 to 6sn7 or from 7193 to 12ax7 (and similar). Would the latter work on the Ember? As I said, I am not planning to buy one at the moment, but I want to understand the options for the future!


 
 That's exactly how I feel too. I have both 6sn7 to 6dj8 and 6sn7 to 12au7 adapters. Both can be interchanged in the Starlight and Horizon as the heater voltage is selected manually. The former works in the Ember but the latter doesn't- just gave a loud hum and I quickly switched off!
 This suggests that a dual 7193 to 6dj8 adapter might work in the Ember, but a 7193 to 12au7 wouldn't.
 The other problem you have already mentioned is the potential importance of the extra height from the 6sn7 to 6dj8 adapter. I wonder if the 7193 adapter board will be too wide to avoid the large C2 capacitors without the extra height, which would mean rotating the adapter and not having the tubes parallel to the front edge of the Ember.
 I guess this is another reason why it would be good if Jeremy could custom make a dual 7193 Ember adapter for us.


----------



## Tunkejazz

Yeah, it makes sense  
But is he (Jeremy) up for it?


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Yeah, it makes sense
> But is he (Jeremy) up for it?


 
 Hope so. He is busy with the power supply just now but he mentioned he might be able to get round to it later in the year.


----------



## Tunkejazz

Has anyone tried a Sylvania 6ns7gt 1952 "Bad boy" on the Ember?


----------



## Johan-71

tunkejazz said:


> Has anyone tried a Sylvania 6ns7gt 1952 "Bad boy" on the Ember?





The left one on the pic is the real deal. 
Be careful out there, lots of fakes. 
And watch out for your self, the road to "tubeohollic" is fast and slippery and really fun.

Johan


----------



## Tunkejazz

johan-71 said:


> The left one on the pic is the real deal.
> Be careful out there, lots of fakes.
> And watch out for your self, the road to "tubeohollic" is fast and slippery and really fun.
> 
> Johan


 

  
 I am "only" reading at the moment!
  
 BTW, with the tube bottle on, how do you discern the two tubes in the picture?


----------



## HOWIE13

Great sounding for me. In fact they are very GOOD boys with the Ember. Be careful though as many tubes are wrongly advertised as bad boys. They may still sound okay but they are not original bad boys.


----------



## Textfeud

I got the Ember II last week and tried it with the stock tube (it was pretty good I must say), after that I got the FrankenEmber (Kenrad 7193) and it sounded wonderful and now I have the Shuguang CV181(6SN7) installed and they are spectacular too. I don't like the look off the FrankenEmber so I'm going with the Shuguang. Great tube! I'm also curious about the Sylvania Chrome Top 6SN7 and the Sophia Electronics 6SN7 but right now I'm good


----------



## Solrighal

I have a Sylvania 6SN7GTA Chrome Dome & it's good, if a tad too warm for my taste. Maybe warm isn't the right word. Soft, maybe. Very good with some harsher recordings though.
  
 My best (so far) is a General Electric 6SN7GT VT-231 manufactured in 1945 for the Canadian military. That's a beautiful sounding valve. It's still warm but it's also punchy & precise, retaining detail in the treble where some other valves have smeared it. Wonderful!


----------



## Textfeud

solrighal said:


> I have a Sylvania 6SN7GTA Chrome Dome & it's good, if a tad too warm for my taste. Maybe warm isn't the right word. Soft, maybe. Very good with some harsher recordings though.
> 
> My best (so far) is a General Electric 6SN7GT VT-231 manufactured in 1945 for the Canadian military. That's a beautiful sounding valve. It's still warm but it's also punchy & precise, retaining detail in the treble where some other valves have smeared it. Wonderful!


 
 Based on your description the Sylvania wouldn't work that great with my headphone (LCD-2.2). The GE on the other hand sounds good


----------



## Tunkejazz

Those Shuguang CV181 are not cheap either


----------



## Textfeud

tunkejazz said:


> Those Shuguang CV181 are not cheap either




I paid 65 euro all in. Not that bad


----------



## Solrighal

textfeud said:


> I paid 65 euro all in. Not that bad


 
  
 Where did you source it?


----------



## Textfeud

solrighal said:


> Where did you source it?


 
 http://www.ebay.nl/itm/281704767648?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Great store, great tube, great price. The tube is deadquiet and gorgeous. There is still one available.


----------



## Solrighal

textfeud said:


> http://www.ebay.nl/itm/281704767648?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> Great store, great tube, great price. The tube is deadquiet and gorgeous. There is still one available.


 
  
 Thanks mate. Sadly that one valve will probably be gone before I get the money together to buy it. It's a beautiful valve though eh?


----------



## Textfeud

solrighal said:


> Thanks mate. Sadly that one valve will probably be gone before I get the money together to buy it. It's a beautiful valve though eh?




The stores name is Shuguang so I think they will have them in stock almost always! Yeah, they are beautiful and sound great. Don't have other 6sn7 to compare them to though, so take it with a big grain of salt!


----------



## Tunkejazz

textfeud said:


> The stores name is Shuguang so I think they will have them in stock almost always! Yeah, they are beautiful and sound great. Don't have other 6sn7 to compare them to though, so take it with a big grain of salt!



I always get cold sweat on my back when I order stuff from outside the EU  

How would you describe in a few words the sound from those tubes?


----------



## Textfeud

tunkejazz said:


> I always get cold sweat on my back when I order stuff from outside the EU
> 
> How would you describe in a few words the sound from those tubes?


 
 I feel ya. With these small and light packages from China you really don't have to worry. I also ordered the Ember II straight from Jeremy and then I just hope for the best. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm bad at the terminology and writing down what I'm hearing so all I can say is that, comparing to the stock tube, the whole sound spectrum got better. Wider soundstage, more air, better timbre, better everything. These are, to my ears, very balanced and neutral. For example with the Philips Miniwatt E88CC I liked the warmth and the bass, with the Siemens E288CC I liked the larger than life soundstage et cetera. With these I like the whole sound and not a part of it. NOT saying these are better than those tubes. Just to point out that the Shuguang is, to my ears, balanced. 
  
 And it's still been only 1.5 day so these can only improve. Or maybe I just have the new toy syndrome


----------



## richard51

textfeud said:


> I feel ya. With these small and light packages from China you really don't have to worry. I also ordered the Ember II straight from Jeremy and then I just hope for the best.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 compared to the 7193 was this shanguang better or only side upgrade or less upgrade?


----------



## Textfeud

richard51 said:


> compared to the 7193 was this shanguang better or only side upgrade or less upgrade?




Haven't done a side by side and not going to. From memory they are pretty much equal. No reason to get the Shuguang if you have the FrankenEmber. Unless you don't like the looks or are very curious.


----------



## Tunkejazz

textfeud said:


> Haven't done a side by side and not going to. From memory they are pretty much equal. No reason to get the Shuguang if you have the FrankenEmber. Unless you don't like the looks or are very curious.




Looking forward to hearing a more detailed comparison!


----------



## Textfeud

tunkejazz said:


> Looking forward to hearing a more detailed comparison!




I won't be able to do it, sorry. Traded my LCD-2.2 for Alpha Primes so shipping them tomorrow. Have to adjust to the new headphones after that and already have the adapter and Kenrad 7193 for sale.


----------



## richard51

textfeud said:


> Haven't done a side by side and not going to. From memory they are pretty much equal. No reason to get the Shuguang if you have the FrankenEmber. Unless you don't like the looks or are very curious.


 

 thanks ... its a valuable information


----------



## Tunkejazz

This Ken-Rad VT-231 + Input caps bypass = Fun, Fun and more Fun 
 Actually it sounds much better bypassing the input caps than with them on the path, not sure why.


----------



## Johan-71

Congrats to the new baby. 

Can you hear any differenses between the vt-231 and 6SN7 Ken-rads?
I've been told that it should be the same tube but The VT should've been manufactured with better tolerance. 
I can't hear the differenses but you're a little bit younger so might be able to tell the differenses 

And yes, to my ears all of my tubes sounds better with the caps bypassed. 
You might get some scratchines from your volpot but that's usually no problems. 

The best cap is no cap.

Johan 




tunkejazz said:


> This Ken-Rad VT-231 + Input caps bypass = Fun, Fun and more Fun
> Actually it sounds much better bypassing the input caps than with them on the path, not sure why.


----------



## Tunkejazz

johan-71 said:


> Congrats to the new baby.
> 
> Can you hear any differenses between the vt-231 and 6SN7 Ken-rads?


 
 Good question. I will test tomorrow. I realize that I tested your ken-Rad when the Ember was not burned-in and the sound signature was changing a lot at the time AND with the input caps on. I am surprised those can affect so much the sound. With the HE400i, bypassing the caps makes far more difference than changing the output impedance.
  
 Your Telefunken E88CC also rocks!


----------



## melkenshawn

Hi guys, i finally got to try the franken-ember setup everyone has been raving about. The thing is it is awfully quiet. I sourced the 7193 to 12ax7 converter from ebay and the 7193 tubes were graciously given to me by Demo3. I've set my computer sound to 100%, the project ember itself is also 100%. Yet it still isn't loud enough. Do you guys have any advice on how to solve this issue? Is the converter faulty? Or is it some other issue? Also if it helps, the project ember version im using right now is version 1. Cheers!


----------



## rmouser

Hello,
  
 I am waiting on the 7193 to 12AX7 from eBay also. Did it fit in the amp OK?
  
 Have you tried removing the FE and putting in a known good tube?


----------



## richard51

melkenshawn said:


> Hi guys, i finally got to try the franken-ember setup everyone has been raving about. The thing is it is awfully quiet. I sourced the 7193 to 12ax7 converter from ebay and the 7193 tubes were graciously given to me by Demo3. I've set my computer sound to 100%, the project ember itself is also 100%. Yet it still isn't loud enough. Do you guys have any advice on how to solve this issue? Is the converter faulty? Or is it some other issue? Also if it helps, the project ember version im using right now is version 1. Cheers!


 
 its not normal for sure...
 consult Jeremy or frans in this thread :
  
 http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember


----------



## melkenshawn

rmouser said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am waiting on the 7193 to 12AX7 from eBay also. Did it fit in the amp OK?
> 
> Have you tried removing the FE and putting in a known good tube?


 
 Well the thing is that i only have 2 7193 tubes, so i'm not sure if the tube is the one causing the problem. Also as for the adapter, you'll have to place it vertically instead of horizontally.


----------



## Tunkejazz

johan-71 said:


> Congrats to the new baby.
> 
> Can you hear any differenses between the vt-231 and 6SN7 Ken-rads?
> I've been told that it should be the same tube but The VT should've been manufactured with better tolerance.
> ...


 
  
 Umm it looks like the VT-231 has slightly more bass impact and slightly more treeble extension, but the difference is not day and night at all. The differences are mostly discernible when listening to songs with a lot of beat. I think I was originally disappointed with the Ken-Rad that I borrowed from you because the Ember was not burned in. Anyhow, I found a very well priced VT-231 and felt that I could give it another try. This is my first ebay purchase!


----------



## bbball

melkenshawn said:


> Hi guys, i finally got to try the franken-ember setup everyone has been raving about. The thing is it is awfully quiet. I sourced the 7193 to 12ax7 converter from ebay and the 7193 tubes were graciously given to me by Demo3. I've set my computer sound to 100%, the project ember itself is also 100%. Yet it still isn't loud enough. Do you guys have any advice on how to solve this issue? Is the converter faulty? Or is it some other issue? Also if it helps, the project ember version im using right now is version 1. Cheers!


 
  
  
 As far as I know, you probably either did not attach the right connector on the top or one of the connector is loose.


----------



## sneaky415

tunkejazz said:


> This Ken-Rad VT-231 + Input caps bypass = Fun, Fun and more Fun
> Actually it sounds much better bypassing the input caps than with them on the path, not sure why.


 
 Bypassing the input caps shortens the decay so it doesn't sound as slow and syrapy. For me the 7193 sounds better with bypassed input caps because it is a bit slower tube. The e1148 tube is faster so I believe it sounds better with input caps because it gives it a bit longer decay.
  
 Have you tried the 7193? In that case, how does it compare to VT-231 Ken-Rad?


----------



## Tunkejazz

sneaky415 said:


> Bypassing the input caps shortens the decay so it doesn't sound as slow and syrapy. For me the 7193 sounds better with bypassed input caps because it is a bit slower tube. The e1148 tube is faster so I believe it sounds better with input caps because it gives it a bit longer decay.
> 
> 
> Have you tried the 7193? In that case, how does it compare to VT-231 Ken-Rad?


 
 Yes, that was exactly my impression with the caps on: slower sound. I haven't tried the 7193. The Ken-Rad has a nice signature, but it is not really a relaxed one. People may think that it is all about the amount of bass when reading the 6sn7 reference thread, but I think the deal with the bass is that it is very well defined, fast and somewhat prominent. I got a Raytheon 6sn7gtb with my Ember from Jeremy and it is not that far from the Ken-Rad. Just a tad less fun (beats are not as prominent).


----------



## melkenshawn

bbball said:


> As far as I know, you probably either did not attach the right connector on the top or one of the connector is loose.


 
  
 It looks fine from my point, how would i go about testing whether one of the connectors are loose?


----------



## rmouser

It sounds like the two connectors on the top may be reversed. Turn off the amp and reverse them.


----------



## melkenshawn

rmouser said:


> It sounds like the two connectors on the top may be reversed. Turn off the amp and reverse them.


 
 Hmm i've tried almost every single configuration and it still isn't helping


----------



## DecentLevi

@melkenshawn I think I have the solution for your quiet dual 7193's:
  
 * Orientate the 7193 adapter so that the G-cap markings are in front of you and the A-cap markings are furthest away. 
    Connect both G-cap wires to the to the outside caps of both 7193 tubes, and
    Connect both A-cap wires to the inside of both tubes
     
    - sometimes although the wires on top are on the caps, they can actually be loose, so you may want to either try twisting the wire on top a bit until it sounds connected better (careful take the headphones off for the loud popping sound), or try cleaning the connections with electrical oil
  
 * Set the Ember to high gain, by removing the panel and moving the position of the dip switch in the rear, towards the right.
  
 If these still don't work, then either your tubes are bad, or the adapter is not right.
 IIRC, you may be one of the first to try the 1 adapter method, while most of us are using both 12ax7 to 6sn7 AND 6sn7 to 7193 adapters


----------



## melkenshawn

decentlevi said:


> @melkenshawn I think I have the solution for your quiet dual 7193's:
> 
> * Orientate the 7193 adapter so that the G-cap markings are in front of you and the A-cap markings are furthest away.
> Connect both G-cap wires to the to the outside caps of both 7193 tubes, and
> ...


 
 First off thank you for the very detailed reply! I've tried all of the methods you've stated above other than cleaning the connections, and the attempts to rectify the problem has been futile thus far. I'm still not sure what's causing the problem


----------



## thunderhead

I did some reading on the diy.boards.net where Frans (the designer of all of the Project amps) and he posted the below: it may be that the tube heater is not receiving and voltage/current.
  
  
  
 The possible mods may be related to the heater pin arrangement.
 The Ember 'senses' if the '9-pin' carries a voltage (current) which is the case with 12V tubes but NOT with 6V tubes.
 Depending on this current tpin 4 and 5 either get connected to 0V and 6V (for 6V tubes) and 4-5 are connected for 12V tubes.

 The 'problem' is that you can either 'fix' pin 4 or pin 5 to 6.3V and connect the other pin either to ground or the other pin.
 Technically it doesn't matter which one is chosen BUT it does matter for adapters as these have to be wired in a certain way (either 4 or 5 is connected).

 Turns out that the cheaper fleabay adapters can directly be used on all Garage 1217 amps with manual heater select (but has to be set to 12V for 6V tubes) but connects to the wrong pin on the Ember.
 The heater thus doesn't receive power in Ember.

 For this reason Jeremy made his own adapter which has a 'selector' in it so you can set it to Ember or the other amps.
 We thought about changing the 4-5 pin layout in Ember 2 but that would lead to even more confusion so the 'selectable' adapter was born.
 Nicer made and shorter as well....

 So it may be possible the heater is not wired correctly.

 Read more: http://diyah.boards.net/thread/143/project-ember?page=104#ixzz3jUiFNMoM


----------



## thunderhead

I have a 12AU7 to 7193 adapter that is in the US--should see it soon. It is supposed to run in amps with manual voltage selection. I have a Sunrise 2 to try it. Frans states that there is a problem with the auto voltage sensing that does not occur with the 6SN7 to 7193 adapter,


----------



## melkenshawn

thunderhead said:


> I have a 12AU7 to 7193 adapter that is in the US--should see it soon. It is supposed to run in amps with manual voltage selection. I have a Sunrise 2 to try it. Frans states that there is a problem with the auto voltage sensing that does not occur with the 6SN7 to 7193 adapter,


 
 Oh well if you finally get it, please comment here so i know if the problem lies in the adapter. Thank you.


----------



## HOWIE13

The adapter you are using is the problem.
 You can't use a 7193 to 12AU7 adapter into the Ember, because of the auto heater voltage selector, though you can use it with other Garage 1217 amps where you select the heater voltage manually. A 7193 to 6DJ8 might work since my 6SN7 to 6DJ8 adapter works in the Ember (but my 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter doesn't).
 I would buy one of Jeremy's custom made 6SN7 Ember adapters and then connect a 7193 to 6SN7 adapter into it. That works fine. Hope you can sort it out, it's certainly worth it !


----------



## rmouser

melkenshawn said:


> thunderhead said:
> 
> 
> > I have a 12AU7 to 7193 adapter that is in the US--should see it soon. It is supposed to run in amps with manual voltage selection. I have a Sunrise 2 to try it. Frans states that there is a problem with the auto voltage sensing that does not occur with the 6SN7 to 7193 adapter,
> ...


 
The 12AU7 to 7193 adapter arrived today. The quality and workmanship is actually very good.
 
It did not work in the Sunrise 2; quiet just like the Ember--6 or 12 volt setting. The heater filaments both glowed though.
 
I whipped out the DVM and went to town. What I found is that pins 5 and 4 were jumpered and went to one of the 7193 heater pins and pin 9 went to the other heater pin. The heaters are wired in series. I cut the jumper and moved the pin 9 wire to pin 4.
 
Tried it in the Sunrise first and they biased nicely at 12 volts. Sounded great.
 
Moved it to the Ember and the auto bias worked flawlessly. Sounds phenomenal.
 
So now the adapter works back and forth between the amps, HOWEVER, it is about 1/4 inch too short to clear the output caps. I was prepared for that as I have two 9 pin socket savers.
  
I have been soldering computer motherboards and other electronics for three decades and have an industrial grade soldering station and it was not easy. 
 
 Irony--it seems the 6DJ8 will work, I "flipped a coin" and the 12AU7 "won"--go figure


----------



## HOWIE13

rmouser said:


> The 12AU7 to 7193 adapter arrived today. The quality and workmanship is actually very good.
> 
> It did not work in the Sunrise 2; quiet just like the Ember--6 or 12 volt setting. The heater filaments both glowed though.
> 
> ...


 
 It's interesting the 12AU7 adapter didn't work in your Sunrise because it works perfectly in my Starlight and Horizon.


----------



## melkenshawn

rmouser said:


> [COLOR=000000]The 12AU7 to 7193 adapter arrived today. The quality and workmanship is actually very good.[/COLOR]
> [COLOR=000000] [/COLOR]
> [COLOR=000000]It did not work in the Sunrise 2; quiet just like the Ember--6 or 12 volt setting. The heater filaments both glowed though.[/COLOR]
> [COLOR=000000] [/COLOR]
> ...




Would you mind doing a picture guide? I have a soldering station and the basic soldering equipment. This sounds like an interesting task to take on.


----------



## melkenshawn

Ok i finally got it working!!! I love you guys. Using the schematic above, what you do is remove the solder linking 4 to 5. Then you desolder the wire at the 9pin and solder it to the 4th pin. I know its already mentioned how to perform this mod above, but i hope this helps those that are still confused. If anyone has any issues, please feel free to contact me!


----------



## DecentLevi

LOL you guys shouldn't just be audiophiles, you should also be... electricians, sound engineers, producers, etc. with all those electrical skills! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (I'm sure many of us are though)
  
 Anyway please reply back about your impressions of the F.E. 7193 setup. I think it usually sounds better with the caps (not bypassed)


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> LOL you guys shouldn't just be audiophiles, you should also be... electricians, sound engineers, producers, etc. with all those electrical skills!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 So I eventually got my adapter and since I was listening with the Horizon at the time continued listening with the adapter in the Horizon. That was 4 days ago and I am still marveling at the difference in soundstage, imaging, depth of sound and instrument separation. I think keeping the caps in reduces the treble detail slightly and I left them bypassed- though might be useful to slightly tame an over-bright recording or headphones, possibly, but that's with the Horizon-sometime I will get to the Ember.


----------



## Mechans1

tunkejazz said:


> I just ordered my Ember with the 6SN7 adapter.
> 
> I have read so much about Sylvania 6SN7GT/6SN7GTA that I would like to order one. The spread in prices on ebay is overwhelming. Any tips to know which one should I get? Also, which flavor is more recommended for deep bass, the 6SN7GT or 6SN7GTA?
> 
> I can see tubes from >20 USD to 200 USD!


 

 I am an inveterate tube roller from other forums.  I love 6SN7 in particular and guess which manufacturer, yes Sylvania.  I am kinda pressed for time right now but will write more if needed.  Get the Syl. GTs with the older construction you are getting a "W" in a consumer package.  The GTA may have that same construction but often doesn't.  If you are dealing with an up and up seller who understand what they have,  you can save considerable money.  Alas Alack, many don't know or pretend not to know and then remind you its Caveat Emptor" no money back its Buyer Beware!


----------



## HOWIE13

I get dizzy just thinking about all the different 6SN7 tube numbers and lettering.
 Mercifully, my favourite is the Sylvania 'Bad Boy', which is easy to identify and, with its legendary deep, controlled bass combined with a sweet, extended treble and warm, honeyed mids, has a 'musicality' second to none, (I'm quoting others here as I haven't heard every expensive tube), but I can testify to it's wonderful sound in the Ember (and Horizon and Starlight).
 Just beware that most sellers are advertising all sorts of tubes as Bad Boys which are not the real deal.


----------



## Mechans1

OK,  No one said anything.  The plates are T shaped with the top of the Ts facing each other.  They were almost always directly across i.e not stagger plates. The other big pick up is the amount of gettering or flashing as you might call it.  That Silvery stuff  (gettering) should cover at least the top %30 of the tube but is usually more extensive that that and may cover more than 75%.  If you can see through it , not as easy as said the T base pointing outward should have 3 staple holes. Along the lines of the true Bad Boy Sylvania bottom Getter GT made between late 1951 to early 1953.  For the Top getter GT which we are discussing here it always has 3 staples to earn this special mention spot Some Sylvania 6SN7GTA tubes had the build I described as a consumer W.  It look s the same for GTAs but you all know GTAs require more warmup voltage and the more continuous voltage to the plates with high wattage dissipation .  Which many people want and a fraction of hobbyists that don't.
 My knowledge of EE is obviously poor, so spare me the harsh words and help redefine whatever entity I mention if it is important or relevant, thanks..


----------



## Mechans1

You know how to recognize them.  They are made only from late 1951 to early 1953.  But that isn't always the most obvious information.  The plate's  T-Tails have 3 staple holes in them.  You really can se this on most of the photos.
 They are vey good tubes indeed, I gave an EE friend a small pre amp of mine to up grade the caps, Hex Freds etcs. on and he was shocked that my "ordinary" Sylvania GTs sounded so good.  He gave it back intact.  He was right they weren't even "Bad Boys" Just the  bottom getter GTs  They were my tubes I recognized them.
 It proves a point, we can get so bent over what's supposed to good vs what does in truth  sound good


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello, I got a few cool discoveries to share with you all:
  
 So after spending more time (than I'm willing to admit without appearing insane) comparing my next batch of 16 'moar' 6SN7 tubes, There are about two that really stand out:
  
 Most notable is the *GE 6SN7 6TA* Copperposts tube. I'm not sure what year it was made, but I've provided the photo below:

  
 This mundane looking tube really packs a lot of sonic greatness from the 'netherworld'!!! The thing that really sets this apart is the bass. The impact, response of the lower frequencies and bass presentation is well done enough to almost satisfy my hunger... as if I am eating firm yet crunchy, velvety, top notch chocolate! And it's bass conveys even better on my cheaper Shure SRH 940 headphones than on my HD 650's, which, by the way it gives perhaps the best bass on the 650's I've tried yet. Then the soundstage seems very lifelike as if I'm touching the singers in the recording. The mids are lush and vivid, and the highs seem very organic and lifelike.
  
 Coming in just behind this one is the GE 6SN7 GTB, which after extensive OCD testing I found it to have all the qualities of the GE GTA, except: slightly deeper sub-bass extension, slightly higher THD, and slightly lesser bass impact (dynamics).
  
So then of course I had to compare the best chosen tube to my Franken Ember 7193 setup, and here's what I found:
Newsflash: The Franken Ember is 'slow'. That was my initial reaction after popping them back in versus the GE photo above. It's something I had been noticing for a while with the FE, and what I mean by slow is that the speed / impact of the bass is ever so slightly slower than realistic. However, other than that the 7193 still wins in terms of: soundstage seems about 15% more organic / lifelike, and instrument separation seems about 15% better as well... Of course there is no absolute perfection in the audio realm, but I would say the likes of my GE tube are better for rock & electronic, while the 7193 is better for everything that's not as rhythmic such as ambient, classical, etc.
  
Overall I've now tried about 29 6SN7 tubes (as well as 3 7193 and a few 12au7), and these two are very rare ones that can come close to the 7193's. I purposefully bought a bunch of smaller name 6SN7's to try this time like Teleking, Raytheon, Channel Master, Philco, Westinghouse, etc. rather than just the well known Sylvania because I thought there must be more out there that can rival the big names, and sure enough... if you are patient to do critical listening on a bunch of small-name tubes you can eventually find something even better.


----------



## Solrighal

My best tube so far is also a General Electric.


----------



## connieflyer

If you want really good bass and definition try a Ken-Rad vt231 1943 version, preferable new or close to it. If it does not glow bright, tube is probably weak, but this tube is the only one left when I rotate away from 7193, expect to pay about $80 for a good one, hard to find but your budget looks like it can accomodate it.  Will be selling off all my other tubes soon, need to build up cash pot, to build a Bottlehead Sex 2.1 amp kit.


----------



## gibosi

decentlevi said:


> Overall I've now tried about 29 6SN7 tubes (as well as 3 7193 and a few 12au7), and these two are very rare ones that can come close to the 7193's. I purposefully bought a bunch of smaller name 6SN7's to try this time like Teleking, Raytheon, Channel Master, Philco, Westinghouse, etc. rather than just the well known Sylvania because I thought there must be more out there that can rival the big names, and sure enough... if you are patient to do critical listening on a bunch of small-name tubes you can eventually find something even better.


 
  
 You might be interested to know that Teleking, Channel Master and Philco did not manufacture tubes. They simply went out and purchased tubes, usually from the lowest bidder, slapped their name on them, and out they door they went. And so, for example, if you were to purchase a bunch of Philco 6SN7, it is possible that each tube was manufactured in a different factory.
  
 Westinghouse is still a bit of a mystery to me. While they did manufacture vacuum tubes, I don't think they manufactured the 6SN7.
  
 Raytheon, on the other hand, was one of the major manufacturers of the 6SN7. However, in the 1960's they shifted much of their production to Japanese manufacturers, especially Hitachi.


----------



## HOWIE13

gibosi said:


> You might be interested to know that Teleking, Channel Master and Philco did not manufacture tubes. They simply went out and purchased tubes, usually from the lowest bidder, slapped their name on them, and out they door they went. And so, for example, if you were to purchase a bunch of Philco 6SN7, it is possible that each tube was manufactured in a different factory.
> 
> Westinghouse is still a bit of a mystery to me. While they did manufacture vacuum tubes, I don't think they manufactured the 6SN7.
> 
> Raytheon, on the other hand, was one of the major manufacturers of the 6SN7. However, in the 1960's they shifted much of their production to Japanese manufacturers, especially Hitachi.


 
 Yep-even the big USA companies would relabel between themselves. Unless you chose a tube with a unique design, or are an expert in the internal details of these 6SN7 tubes, it may on occasion be difficult to be sure who has manufactured the tube. It's fine if you find a good one-you may not care who made it-but it's something to bear in mind when you are making and/or following a recommendation.
 One helpful code is the unique manufacturer's code-though not all tubes have them, or they have rubbed off-Westinghouse was 337.


----------



## Solrighal

connieflyer said:


> If you want really good bass and definition try a Ken-Rad vt231 1943 version, preferable new or close to it. *If it does not glow bright, tube is probably weak*, but this tube is the only one left when I rotate away from 7193, expect to pay about $80 for a good one, hard to find but your budget looks like it can accomodate it.  Will be selling off all my other tubes soon, need to build up cash pot, to build a Bottlehead Sex 2.1 amp kit.


 
  
 Does this apply specifically to the Ken-Rad or is it true of all tubes?
  
 My General Electric is a 6SN7GT VT-231 from 1945. The box says it was for the Canadian Armed Forces. Sounds great but it doesn't glow brightly at all.


----------



## DecentLevi

@gibosi you said that Teleking, Channel Master and Philco did not manufacture tubes - so do you know which company actually made them? No biggie, just curious.
  
@connieflyer you recommended Ken-Rad vt231 1943 version. So this is a 6SN7 tube right? And would you mind describing anything else about the sound of this tube, like the stage, mids, highs etc.? Also I read on the 6SN7 reference thread the the vt231 are essentially the same as 6SN7GT.
  
 Also Zorrofox, wow I was speechless. I guess we actually can agree on the same point sometimes


----------



## Solrighal

We probably agree on a lot of stuff but audio is such a subjective thing.


----------



## gibosi

decentlevi said:


> @gibosi you said that Teleking, Channel Master and Philco did not manufacture tubes - so do you know which company actually made them? No biggie, just curious.


 
  
 The lowest bidder. So for example, there is no way to know in advance which company manufactured any Philco tube you come across. It is necessary to closely examine the construction and various markings to determine the original manufacturer.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Does this apply specifically to the Ken-Rad or is it true of all tubes?
> 
> My General Electric is a 6SN7GT VT-231 from 1945. The box says it was for the Canadian Armed Forces. Sounds great but it doesn't glow brightly at all.


 
  
 Gordon-your post spurred me into action!
 I always thought the glow came from the heater filament, and could vary, anyway, from tube to tube according to how the filament was exactly set and positioned etc.
 I have an LD 2  which, as you doubtless know, has two power tubes side by side for each channel. I have been using two Tung-Sol 6SN7's and one glows much brighter than the other, though they both sound the same,ie no obvious audible gain difference. Anyway, I swapped them round in their sockets and there was no change in their respective glows and I then checked their performance on my tester. Both tubes tested good but the one that glowed less gave slightly higher readings.


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> Gordon-your post spurred me into action!
> I always thought the glow came from the heater filament, and could vary, anyway, from tube to tube according to how the filament was exactly set and positioned etc.
> I have an LD 2  which, as you doubtless know, has two power tubes side by side for each channel. I have been using two Tung-Sol 6SN7's and one glows much brighter than the other, though they both sound the same,ie no obvious audible gain difference. Anyway, I swapped them round in their sockets and there was no change in their respective glows and I then checked their performance on my tester. Both tubes tested good but the one that glowed less gave slightly higher readings.


 
  
 That's good to hear! So dim is in? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I've always had this niggling doubt that the channels on this particular tube are out of balance. It's only a niggling doubt because it is very subtle. It would be interesting to see how it tests.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> That's good to hear! So dim is in?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Most tubes I've tested have slight differences in gain, though tube imbalance is usually insignificant compared to poor original channel balance, all too common in classical recordings, headphone imbalance and, of course, discrepancies in my ears.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 That's why I couldn't survive without a balance control of some sort.


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> Most tubes I've tested have slight differences in gain, though tube imbalance is usually insignificant compared to poor original channel balance, all too common in classical recordings, headphone imbalance and, of course, discrepancies in my ears.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It's one of the main reasons I use the HD 650 - a generally locked-in central channel. It's definitely noticeable with this one tube though because I've switced to an ECC82 & it's perfect. Not the same expansive soundstage though which is a shame.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> It's one of the main reasons I use the HD 650 - a generally locked-in central channel. It's definitely noticeable with this one tube though because I've switced to an ECC82 & it's perfect. Not the same expansive soundstage though which is a shame.


 
 That can be a bummer if it becomes annoying. The thing about the balance control is I tend to rely on it too much and use it even if I don't really need to, - bit like the dishwasher. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 I did something quite exciting this morning- got my hands on a 6J5 to 6SN7 converter and a couple of 6J5's and tried them in the Horizon, in place of the 6SN7 and 7193 set ups. OMG-like the Horizon was having an adrenaline rush. Maybe it would suit the Ember and HD 650 -it certainly excited my K612's.


----------



## Solrighal

It's already way beyond annoying, lol.
  
 Is the 6J5 better then?


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> It's already way beyond annoying, lol.
> 
> Is the 6J5 better then?


 
 Not necessarily better-but unexpectedly different.
 I was expecting it to sound just like the 6SN7, since it's the same only in two separate tubes-but blimey-it's completely different.
 It's much tighter in the bass, but I think goes deeper. Leaner and clearer in the lower mids and still well extended and sweet in the treble. The mids are more forward. Altogether, much more detailed, up-front, though not claustrophobic, sound but with less warmth than the 6SN7, more like a good Bugle Boy,Tesla or Tungsram ECC 88, BUT it retains the wider and deeper sound-stage of the 6SN7.
 Compared to the 7193 it has more detail but sound-stage is a bit smaller, (more like the 6SN7). In the Horizon it's like moving to the front row on an adrenaline surge. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It may not suit bright cans but could give the kiss of life to warmer, neutral kit.
 When I recover I'll try it in the Ember with an HD650
  
 PS. Tubes are Sylvania-they have silver, metal base-look around 1960's. That's all I know about them.


----------



## Solrighal

Thanks for the detailed info. There's so many ways to go here. Is yours a glass one (GT) or a metal one?


----------



## Mechans1

I find it interesting that when  novel a tube is used in place of the manufacturers choice of tube is, always has blow your mind audiobabble type  verbage.  It makes those that use the manf. tube choice like a 6SN7, feel ignorant and left behind.  The tube of choice however is still makes a comeback in the end in many cases.   I have to admit that my favorite 12AX7 tube is  now a Sylvania triple micah  black plate.  I do have regular 12AX7s in case of tube emergency.
 Those of you who are using "better alternative tubes"  Can you throw out the stock of regular tubes my way.
 Thanks


----------



## Solrighal

Is there a consensus as to what's the best _stock_ tube? As much as I like the 6SN7's I do also like to show off the amp now & again and it looks so much better with the glow than without.


----------



## DavidA

solrighal said:


> Is there a consensus as to what's the best _stock_ tube? As much as I like the 6SN7's I do also like to show off the amp now & again and it looks so much better with the glow than without.


 

 By "stock" you mean anything that does not need the adapter?  If so I would say Telefunken 12AU7.
  
 Didn't you know that the color affects the sound?  My GF loves pink, very mellow sounding


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Thanks for the detailed info. There's so many ways to go here. Is yours a glass one (GT) or a metal one?


 
 Glass-like you, I like to see the glow, lol.
 Actually I did a bit of reading about this tube. It has a date code N3, which may be WW2 period-but not sure. Here's a picture anyway- not as dramatic as FrankenEmber, sadly.


----------



## HOWIE13

mechans1 said:


> I find it interesting that when  novel a tube is used in place of the manufacturers choice of tube is, always has blow your mind audiobabble type  verbage.  It makes those that use the manf. tube choice like a 6SN7, feel ignorant and left behind.  The tube of choice however is still makes a comeback in the end in many cases.   I have to admit that my favorite 12AX7 tube is  now a Sylvania triple micah  black plate.  I do have regular 12AX7s in case of tube emergency.
> Those of you who are using "better alternative tubes"  Can you throw out the stock of regular tubes my way.
> Thanks


 
  
 Beside the sound, what's so good about Garage 1217 amps is that they do invite tube rolling and experimentation, especially as they are so versatile, and Jeremy and Frans are so helpful and encouraging in this respect. 
 I don't, for this reason, think of Garage 1217 amps as having a stock tube, as such. Sound just evolves with these amps, which, for me makes them such fun. Having said that I've also spent a lot of money on tubes I was disappointed with. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 PS. If it's a high gain 12AX7 that suits you best none of these novel tubes will better what you already have as non of them approaches the gain of a 12AX7.


----------



## Solrighal

davida said:


> By "stock" you mean anything that does not need the adapter?  If so I would say Telefunken 12AU7.
> 
> Didn't you know that the color affects the sound?  My GF loves pink, very mellow sounding


 
  
 Yeah, that's what I'm after. Something that doesn't need an adapter. I'll have a look for a Telefunken, thanks. As far as colour is concerned I only ever have it set to a nice warm natural glow.


howie13 said:


> Glass-like you, I like to see the glow, lol.
> Actually I did a bit of reading about this tube. It has a date code N3, which may be WW2 period-but not sure. Here's a picture anyway-it's not as dramatic as FrankenHorizon, sadly.


 
  
 I was looking here..
  
http://vinylsavor.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/tube-of-month-6j5.html
  
 ..in an attempt to find out more about them. Lots of info but nothing on date codes unfortunately. Although I do prefer glass the matt black ones would look very cool when fitted to the aluminium chassis of my Ember.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Yeah, that's what I'm after. Something that doesn't need an adapter. I'll have a look for a Telefunken, thanks. As far as colour is concerned I only ever have it set to a nice warm natural glow.
> 
> I was looking here..
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, I saw a picture of a 7193 FrankenEmber with the black chassis and it looked  absolutely fab.
 Interesting link. Thanks. Maybe the GE one will suit you again? You get the adapter on ebay, the second attempt at delivery only took 5 days


----------



## connieflyer

NIce post Howie13 I like the idea of trying new tubes, I will have to run this up the flag with Jeremy or Solderdude and see if the 6j5 tubes would work with ember.  Myself I like the way they look, thanks for the post.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> NIce post Howie13 I like the idea of trying new tubes, I will have to run this up the flag with Jeremy or Solderdude and see if the 6j5 tubes would work with ember.  Myself I like the way they look, thanks for the post.


 
 Thanks very much. It would be great if you could seek their opinions. I did quickly listen with my Ember and it works. It didn't sound dissimilar to the Horizon, but I only listened for a few moments as I'm deeply immersed into the Horizon at present, so it wouldn't be fair to give a judgement with the Ember in that short time. I did hear a very quiet hum in the background though.
 What really takes me by surprise is that the two separate 6J5's sound nothing like any single 6SN7 I have heard (admittedly I've only heard a few). I wonder if that's what would be expected? Maybe there's something atypical with the tubes I'm using, or I just have not heard enough 6SN7's?
 Good to have Jeremy'/Fran's perspective and anybody else who has any experience with these 6J5 tubes.
  
 EDIT: Heard same ' very quiet hum' this morning-traced the source to my wife blow drying her hair at the other end of the apartment!


----------



## Solrighal

davida said:


> By "stock" you mean anything that does not need the adapter?  If so I would say Telefunken 12AU7.
> 
> Didn't you know that the color affects the sound?  My GF loves pink, very mellow sounding


 
  
 OK, I've been searching the usual places and there's lots of different Telefunken 12AU7's around, at wildly different price points. Would you be able to be more specific?


----------



## connieflyer

howie13 said:


> Thanks very much. It would be great if you could seek their opinions. I did quickly listen with my Ember and it works. It didn't sound dissimilar to the Horizon, but I only listened for a few moments as I'm deeply immersed into the Horizon at present, so it wouldn't be fair to give a judgement with the Ember in that short time. I did hear a very quiet hum in the background though.
> What really takes me by surprise is that the two separate 6J5's sound nothing like any single 6SN7 I have heard (admittedly I've only heard a few). I wonder if that's what would be expected? Maybe there's something atypical with the tubes I'm using, or I just have not heard enough 6SN7's?
> Good to have Jeremy'/Fran's perspective and anybody else who has any experience with these 6J5 tubes.
> 
> EDIT: Heard same ' very quiet hum' this morning-traced the source to my wife blow drying her hair at the other end of the apartment!


 

 I have had that happen lots of time, usually she warns me now that she is going to use the blow dryer.


----------



## DavidA

solrighal said:


> OK, I've been searching the usual places and there's lots of different Telefunken 12AU7's around, at wildly different price points. Would you be able to be more specific?


 

 Hi Gordon, I don't have the Telefunken 12AU7 with me now, its in storage and I don't know when I'll have time to go searching for it.
 These are similar to what I got:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken-ECC82-12AU7-Vacuum-Tube-17mm-Ribbed-Gray-Plate-Western-Germany-Tested-/201415102842?hash=item2ee546917a
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Telefunken-12AU7-ECC82-smooth-plate-valve-GERMAN-NIB-/121738618270?hash=item1c582fe59e
  
 The second one is really high priced due to the NIB, I paid $42 for one and $53 for the other
  
 Also have 2 of these:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken-ECC83-12AX7-Vacuum-Tube-Matched-Sections-17mm-Gray-Plate-Tested-/201415102437?hash=item2ee5468fe5
  
 Hope this is enough info
  
 DavidA


----------



## Tunkejazz

Ummm it would be fun to try a 12ax7. Any recommendation? I think I am an addict


----------



## DavidA

tunkejazz said:


> Ummm it would be fun to try a 12ax7. Any recommendation? I think I am an addict


 
 I've tried 4 re-issue tubes, 12AX7 Tung Sol, Gold Lion, Mullard and Electro Harmonix along with NOS Telefunkens. all are not bad but give the edge to the Mullard and Telefunken.


----------



## Tunkejazz

davida said:


> I've tried 4 re-issue tubes, 12AX7 Tung Sol, Gold Lion, Mullard and Electro Harmonix along with NOS Telefunkens. all are not bad but give the edge to the Mullard and Telefunken.




Thanks, those reissue tubes are not as expensive as the vintage rip off.


----------



## DavidA

tunkejazz said:


> Thanks, those reissue tubes are not as expensive as the vintage rip off.


 
 That's the reason I tried them, and I found that I like the Mullard with the HE-400i/560 quite a lot.  The bass/lows are well extended and smooth, never muddy.


----------



## Mechans1

I don't know what this new wondertube looks like so if you have as picture ready please post.
  
 You have said you're not sure you listened to the right 6SN7s in either possible quality and even if you had heard them often enough to make your conclusion legitimate? So I will bite and ask you which 6SN7s have you heard?


----------



## DavidA

mechans1 said:


> I don't know what this new wondertube looks like so if you have as picture ready please post.
> 
> You have said you're not sure you listened to the right 6SN7s in either possible quality and even if you had heard them often enough to make your conclusion legitimate? So I will bite and ask you which 6SN7s have you heard?


 
 I'm not sure if this was directed at me but I've only tried 2 different 6SN7 tubes,  Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA Mil, Sylvania 6SN7GT 3 hole.  Can't take a picture of them now as 95% of my stuff is in storage for the next few months before I can move into my new place.  I've been going to the storage and picking up one or two things but don't know which box all the tubes are in.
 As for pictures of the 12XXX tubes you can use the links in my post #827 above.


----------



## DecentLevi

@HOWIE13, regarding the 6J5 tubes - yes I hope one of you will reach out to Jeremy or other about the compatibility of this tube with the Ember.
  
 I just did a simple search on eBay for 6J5 and WOW - Oh my good Lord! There seems to be a massive variety of these tubes in a multitude of shapes, sizes and manufacturers, and at a pretty low price. Wow man, I think we may have to give you the credit for 'opening the doors to another univere' - but just make sure you have a contingency plan 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (LOL).
  
 With such a wide variety of those, I would take your semi-negative review of the one you tried with a grain of salt and say that there's much more to be had with rolling other 6J5 tubes. Would you have a photo of the one you tried, just for reference? Thanks


----------



## DecentLevi

BTW, what is the Bad Boy tube - the KenRad VT 231?


----------



## Tunkejazz

decentlevi said:


> BTW, what is the Bad Boy tube - the KenRad VT 231?


 
 Sylvania 6sn7gt from 1952 (and late 1951?). It has a very particular description and shape, you can find it listed in the reference 6sn7 thread. Apparently it sounds similar to the old VT-231 but with bass if you believe what others say.


----------



## Solrighal

davida said:


> Hi Gordon, I don't have the Telefunken 12AU7 with me now, its in storage and I don't know when I'll have time to go searching for it.
> These are similar to what I got:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken-ECC82-12AU7-Vacuum-Tube-17mm-Ribbed-Gray-Plate-Western-Germany-Tested-/201415102842?hash=item2ee546917a
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the links David. I've added those to my watch list as they're affordable but I'll try to source the same in Europe if possible because by the time shipping & import tax is added it gets a bit much.
  


decentlevi said:


> BTW, what is the Bad Boy tube - the KenRad VT 231?


 
  
 Sylvania make the Bad Boys but be careful as from what I've read there are a lot advertised as such that aren't actually the correct tube.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> @HOWIE13, regarding the 6J5 tubes - yes I hope one of you will reach out to Jeremy or other about the compatibility of this tube with the Ember.
> 
> I just did a simple search on eBay for 6J5 and WOW - Oh my good Lord! There seems to be a massive variety of these tubes in a multitude of shapes, sizes and manufacturers, and at a pretty low price. Wow man, I think we may have to give you the credit for 'opening the doors to another univere' - but just make sure you have a contingency plan
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for that.
 It does work in my Ember and nothing went on fire -but I only listened for a few moments as my wife's hair dryer was interfering with the sound so I can't make any judgement about compatibility with the Ember. I have only owned the Ember for a couple of weeks and really want to familiarise myself with the more conventional tubes in it first. 
 The comments I made on the 6J5 were all using the Horizon, which I am very familiar with ( classical on CD with K612's). I very much liked it's forward clarity, but it didn't quite have the warmth of the 6SN7's I've tried, and it's sound stage, though large, is not quite as holographic as the 7193's, all IMHO, of course. It will certainly have a place in my system though.
 There's a photo at #819.
 8 pin Octals I've tried include:    TungSol 6SN7GT, 6SN7GT 'mouse ears', 6SN7GTB, 
                                              Sylvania 6SN7GT and V231 and Bad Boy,
                                              RCA 6SN7GTB
                                              Colomor 6SN7GT
                                              PHOTON, 1950's, and a couple of other Russian military ones ?factory.
 It's not nearly as many tubes as you have been trying recently, so any comparison you and anyone else could make with the 6J5 in Garage1217 amps would be very welcome. I sourced the 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter from an excellent seller in China who sells the boards you can swivel round, otherwise I would have had difficulty positioning an adapter nicely into the Horizon. This then fitted into a standard 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter to the Horizon's socket. Horizon doesn't need a specially made adapter for this, as the Ember does, as you select the heater voltage manually.
 Have a nice weekend seeking out the perfect sound.


----------



## Tunkejazz

solrighal said:


> Thanks for the links David. I've added those to my watch list as they're affordable but I'll try to source the same in Europe if possible because by the time shipping & import tax is added it gets a bit much.
> 
> 
> Sylvania make the Bad Boys but be careful as from what I've read there are a lot advertised as such that aren't actually the correct tube.




As far as I understood something like this should be the real thing:
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-Matching-1952-Sylvania-6SN7GT-Bad-Boy-3-Hole-Plate-Tubes-strong-/221845115617?nav=SEARCH

And I would hesitate with these:
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/SYLVANIA-Chrome-Dome-6SN7GT-Bad-Boy-3-Hole-VACUUM-TUBE-TV-7-Tested-6-266-/231586971754?nav=SEARCH

But all this is based om what I read. I don't think paying 70£/tube is worth it.


----------



## Solrighal

tunkejazz said:


> As far as I understood something like this should be the real thing:
> http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-Matching-1952-Sylvania-6SN7GT-Bad-Boy-3-Hole-Plate-Tubes-strong-/221845115617?nav=SEARCH
> 
> And I would hesitate with these:
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, definitely. A Chrome Dome is not a Bad Boy. I have a 1951 Chrome Dome & love it though. It's a very smooth sounding tube, even across the entire FR - no excessive bass or treble and a nice warm glow in the mids. I'm actually using it right now and things such as Feist sound superb with it. I also got it for half the price of the one listed above but the seller I used isn't even listing any more.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> BTW, what is the Bad Boy tube - the KenRad VT 231?


 
  


tunkejazz said:


> As far as I understood something like this should be the real thing:
> http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-Matching-1952-Sylvania-6SN7GT-Bad-Boy-3-Hole-Plate-Tubes-strong-/221845115617?nav=SEARCH
> 
> And I would hesitate with these:
> ...


 
 I think you are absolutely correct with your links, with the Bad Boy's distinctive appearance making purchasing more certain.
 Bad Boys were only made by Sylvania between 1951-53, almost all are 1952. They were called  Bad Boys I think because of their strong bass.
 They have black plates with 3 holes and a tall bottle. The top is clear, with a silvery rectangular mica, with three small downward protrusions at each of the short ends.The getter covers about the bottom third of the glass.The print is normally green on a black base and the date is given as three numbers going down, the first a 1, 2 or 3 denotes 1951,52,53. The following two numbers are the week of manufacture.
 I've seen Bad Boys being advertised as 'chrome dome' version, VT231 version (impossible as VT231 was only used until around 1945), small bottle version, two hole version etc,etc. Some of these will be very good tubes, but they are not the original 'Bad Boys'.
 Personally, I would beware buying a very expensive, putative Bad Boy unless I could clearly see the distinctive and correct date code in the picture, even if the rest looks genuine. The first example above does look the real deal-and it's pricey, though for my ears the sound is worth the price. Even though there will be good bargains to be found elsewhere you do know what you are getting if you purchase a genuine Bad Boy.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> I have had that happen lots of time, usually she warns me now that she is going to use the blow dryer.


 
 She's at it again this morning-why does it take so long to dry hair?


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> BTW, what is the Bad Boy tube - the KenRad VT 231?


 
 I only just focused on your question about the Bad Boy, but you can see my thoughts at # 841
 Cheers.


----------



## HOWIE13

cancelled-double entry.


----------



## Tunkejazz

howie13 said:


> I only just focused on your question about the Bad Boy, but you can see my thoughts at # 841
> Cheers.




HOWIE13 have you or anyone else compared your Sylvania Bad Boy with a Ken-Rad vt231?


----------



## Solrighal

I've read others who have & prefer the Ken-Rad. The Sylvania carries a certain cache simply because it's called a Bad Boy. Who couldn't like that?


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> @HOWIE13 have you or anyone else compared your Sylvania Bad Boy with a Ken-Rad vt231?


 
 I will have to save up to afford the Ken Rad, it's out of my price range just now. I read it has the best bass of all the 6SN7's, though not as good mids as Bad Boys- The other oft quoted one is the Tung-Sol 'round plate'. A friend of mine has one but won't lend it to me, or even let me listen to it, 'cos he thinks I'll steal it away from him!


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> I've read others who have & prefer the Ken-Rad. The Sylvania carries a certain cache simply because it's called a Bad Boy. Who couldn't like that?


 
 HAHA You mean like a 'Bugle Boy'.


----------



## Tunkejazz

solrighal said:


> I've read others who have & prefer the Ken-Rad. The Sylvania carries a certain cache simply because it's called a Bad Boy. Who couldn't like that?



I have the kenrad vt231 black bottle (got it very well priced from an ebay seller in the UK) and it sounds very very good in the bass, with a lot of detail too. BUT in my opinion and with the constraints imposed by my dac/headphone combo, I think the mids may be just a tad recessed, assuming that I interpret correctly what I hear. I keep using it over and over, but I think the syl bad boy could change a bit the presentation, keeping a similar bass impact. 

I have to admit that thanks to Johan, I have been able to test many tubes from the start since I got the ember and quickly found the 6sn7 signature of my liking. Outside those tubes, the telefunken e88cc also rocks greatly and I alternate it with the kenrad often.


----------



## Tunkejazz

howie13 said:


> I will have to save up to afford the Ken Rad, it's out of my price range just now. I read it has the best bass of all the 6SN7's, though not as good mids as Bad Boys- The other oft quoted one is the Tung-Sol 'round plate'. A friend of mine has one but won't lend it to me, or even let me listen to it, 'cos he thinks I'll steal it away from him!




Your friend is a wise person 

Btw, I found an interesting thread about the bad boys in a different forum. Just scroll down to the very last post. Summarizing, the bad boys were made in several batches, and the first one was in 1950, but most of them are made in 1952. So bad boys can date from 50, 51, 52 and 53, if we believe that guy. He also warns that other non-bad boy tubes were also made during those years and just looking at the dates will not cut it. Anyhow here it goes:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tubes&m=256619


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Your friend is a wise person
> 
> Btw, I found an interesting thread about the bad boys in a different forum. Just scroll down to the very last post. Summarizing, the bad boys were made in several batches, and the first one was in 1950, but most of them are made in 1952. So bad boys can date from 50, 51, 52 and 53, if we believe that guy. He also warns that other non-bad boy tubes were also made during those years and just looking at the dates will not cut it. Anyhow here it goes:
> http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tubes&m=256619


 
 Well he's a person, anyway. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thanks for the interesting link. I didn't know they were made in 1950 as well. Did you also see the other comment about once you start trying 7193's it gets even more interesting? That has a familiar ring!


----------



## Tunkejazz

howie13 said:


> Well he's a person, anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Don't tempt me, I am broke man


----------



## connieflyer

One thing with the 7193's the tubes are inexpensive.  I paid about $25 US for a pair of Ken-Rad 1943 in the original boxes.  Second pair was about  the same price but vintage 1942.  He was out of stock on these after I bought the first pair and asked him if he was getting any more, and answered the next day that he could how many did I want, I said a pair and he got them right away.  While these are not the KEn-Rad vt231's 6sn7's they sound so close it is hard to tell. The dual tubes just sound more of everything I guess.  I paid about $80 for the almost new vt231, and to tell the truth, I wish I would have seen the adapter article first, as I would not have bought the expensive tube.  It is the best of the 6sn7's that I have including the Sylvania vt231, some rca's and a few others.  YMMV.


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


> One thing with the 7193's the tubes are inexpensive.  I paid about $25 US for a pair of Ken-Rad 1943 in the original boxes.  Second pair was about  the same price but vintage 1942.  He was out of stock on these after I bought the first pair and asked him if he was getting any more, and answered the next day that he could how many did I want, I said a pair and he got them right away.  While these are not the KEn-Rad vt231's 6sn7's they sound so close it is hard to tell. The dual tubes just sound more of everything I guess.  I paid about $80 for the almost new vt231, and to tell the truth, I wish I would have seen the adapter article first, as I would not have bought the expensive tube.  It is the best of the 6sn7's that I have including the Sylvania vt231, some rca's and a few others.  YMMV.


 

 i think the same about 7193...I feel a difference in my planar speakers... more stratification of the soundstage and this is very important for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i think that one of the most interesting advantage of the ember is this pre-amp function , hence the possibility to introduce tube sound in the speakers system at a low cost, especially the 7193 tubes that are considered by many people the best " 6sn7" upgrade...


----------



## Tunkejazz

connieflyer said:


> One thing with the 7193's the tubes are inexpensive.  I paid about $25 US for a pair of Ken-Rad 1943 in the original boxes.  Second pair was about  the same price but vintage 1942.  He was out of stock on these after I bought the first pair and asked him if he was getting any more, and answered the next day that he could how many did I want, I said a pair and he got them right away.  While these are not the KEn-Rad vt231's 6sn7's they sound so close it is hard to tell. The dual tubes just sound more of everything I guess.  I paid about $80 for the almost new vt231, and to tell the truth, I wish I would have seen the adapter article first, as I would not have bought the expensive tube.  It is the best of the 6sn7's that I have including the Sylvania vt231, some rca's and a few others.  YMMV.



Yeah I am sure I will have to try them eventually. My office at the university has a lot of wifi crap around though, and I wonder if the 7193 won't catch all that interference. 

BtW, I paid £25+postage for my ken-rad, so it did not hurt as much as it could had.


----------



## connieflyer

My Ember has the metal plates, it sits less than 3 feet from my router, wireless, 2.5 ghz 5 ghz and cable modem, sits 2 feet from my pc , right next to my monitor and within 2 feet from wireless cell phone.  Used to have to put phone about five feet from Ember, but now with the metal chasis plates I have no problem with the phone interferring with the amp.  As always ymmv but this is what mine does


----------



## Tunkejazz

connieflyer said:


> My Ember has the metal plates, it sits less than 3 feet from my router, wireless, 2.5 ghz 5 ghz and cable modem, sits 2 feet from my pc , right next to my monitor and within 2 feet from wireless cell phone.  Used to have to put phone about five feet from Ember, but now with the metal chasis plates I have no problem with the phone interferring with the amp.  As always ymmv but this is what mine does



Mine has the acrylic cover and there is no router in the same room...yet it picks a lot of crap with certain tubes.

Perhps I should order the metal cover :-D


----------



## connieflyer

It seems to me, that with the metal chasis plates there is a resistor that you can connect to them to help with emi, I did not add it as I don't seem to have the problem but others have used it.  Why not ask Frans about it or Jeremy they may be able to help with that.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi @HOWIE13, is that a dual 6J5 setup you have there on your profile picture? Also, does the schematic require that the 6J5  tube be in dual mode to be compatible with the Ember / Horizon amp, or is there any single 6J5 tube config. that would be possible?
  
 Also I think there are several of us who would be interested if anyone can do A/B comparisons between the Bad Boy, KenRad VT 231 and Franken Ember 7193 tubes, please


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Hi @HOWIE13, is that a dual 6J5 setup you have there on your profile picture? Also, does the schematic require that the 6J5  tube be in dual mode to be compatible with the Ember / Horizon amp, or is there any single 6J5 tube config. that would be possible?
> 
> Also I think there are several of us who would be interested if anyone can do A/B comparisons between the Bad Boy, KenRad VT 231 and Franken Ember 7193 tubes, please


 
 Yes, that's a couple of 6J5's in the Horizon.
 The 6J5 is a single triode so you need a dual set up for two channel sound. The 6SN7 is the equivalent dual set up, but to my ears, with my limited experience, the 6J5's sound a little more detailed-but that's in the Horizon. I was going to try it in my Ember but I broke the adapter so I am waiting for a new one to arrive. My impression is that it sounds somewhere between the 6SN7 and the 7193 set up-that's a very rough and ready thing to say, but the best I can muster having just got up, and before my early morning coffee.
  
 Those comparisons would be interesting-we could even add a TS RP and the 6J5 setup- the possibilities never end with the versatility of Garage1217 amps.
  
 PS. I've just found out that a 6SN7 to 6DJ8 adapter works fine in my Ember. I don't know if that's supposed to be the case, (does anybody know?), though Jeremy's special adapter looks much smarter.
  
 PPS. Frans has confirmed to me that it's okay to use this 6SN7 to 6DJ8 adapter-but as well as not looking as good as Jeremy's it also blocks out a lot of the led glow, so I will only use it when rolling.


----------



## Tunkejazz

By the way, can anyone recommend a 12??7/e88cc/etc tube with good subbass and a sweet upper end? So far my kenrad 6sn7 gives me almost all that but something with a bit more bite and extension would be nice sometimes


----------



## Tunkejazz

decentlevi said:


> Hi @HOWIE13
> , is that a dual 6J5 setup you have there on your profile picture? Also, does the schematic require that the 6J5  tube be in dual mode to be compatible with the Ember / Horizon amp, or is there any single 6J5 tube config. that would be possible?
> 
> Also I think there are several of us who would be interested if anyone can do A/B comparisons between the Bad Boy, KenRad VT 231 and Franken Ember 7193 tubes, please



I *might* have sourced 2 badboys for 20 EUR (the seller had no clue) but I will test them on Monday at the office. The description and codes seem to match. So I may be able to put some words about the ken-rad vs badboys if it turns out I got them right.


----------



## Mechans1

tunkejazz said:


> By the way, can anyone recommend a 12??7/e88cc/etc tube with good subbass and a sweet upper end? So far my kenrad 6sn7 gives me almost all that but something with a bit more bite and extension would be nice sometimes


 
 You probably won't have  as an obvious change in bass but an early long plate Blackburn Mullard 12AX7 might give what you are seeking.  They are getting rare and  are expensive however.


----------



## nekroseven

What are the differences in using a 12V vs a 6V tube besides noise? Am I correct in thinking that this will not affect how much power output goes to the headphone on the Ember?


----------



## Tunkejazz

tunkejazz said:


> I *might* have sourced 2 badboys for 20 EUR (the seller had no clue) but I will test them on Monday at the office. The description and codes seem to match. So I may be able to put some words about the ken-rad vs badboys if it turns out I got them right.


 
 Actually, I think I did got the real thing!
  
 One of them was damaged during the trip, but the other sounds great. First impressions with my HE400i are:
 . The Bad Boy has a bit less amount of overall bass, but the sub-bass is relatively a bit more prominent. Listening to Eagles - Hotel California (live from Hell Freezes over), the Syl makes my HE400i rumble in the very low end, whereas the ken-rad has a more emphasis a bit higher up (but not much!). In both tubes, the bass is very fast, great fun!
 . The mids are simply better, less recessed and richer in the Bad boy.
 . The upper end...I think I actually prefer the ken-rad, the sylvania is more extended but it feels that the Ken-Rad got a more realistic overall timbre of the treeble.
  
 More to come later.


----------



## eris0xff

Just thought I'd toss in my experience, admittedly limited with the Ember.   I use the ember with AKG K712 Pro cans.  The K712s are 62 ohm phones and the ember drives them easily.  In fact most other low power amps and default headphone jacks just make the K712s sound anemic.
  
 The Ember makes the K712 absolutely come alive.
  
 Though I've tried various 12AX7 and several Sylvania 5751 combinations my favorite tubes are the NOS Raytheon 12AX7 organ tubes.  They were handpicked by Hammond and other engineers for their audio quality and just wow.   Incredible transparency, air and bass punch and cheap when you can find them.  Someone has said that these sound like liquid glass and now I know what they mean.
  
 Only downside is I'm detecting some 60 hz during quiet passages and in between tracks.  I'll see if I can narrow this down.
  
 eris


----------



## DavidA

eris0xff said:


> Just thought I'd toss in my experience, admittedly limited with the Ember.   I use the ember with AKG K712 Pro cans.  The K712s are 62 ohm phones and the ember drives them easily.  In fact most other low power amps and default headphone jacks just make the K712s sound anemic.
> 
> The Ember makes the K712 absolutely come alive.
> 
> ...


 

 Dirty pins?, try using Deoxit to clean them, its helped a few here and in the 6SN7 thread.


----------



## Mechans1

davida said:


> Did you try the Raytheon 5751 "Windmill" getter. It is a very good tube. Much less romantic and may get you all of the 5751 midrange, maybe a tad bass shy,but with a more holographic 3D soundtage and outstanding treble.  It is all business though with a clean clear crystalline signal.  It is worth looking into they usually  sell quickly if you don't like it.  I am not sure if any sensibly priced tubes are on the market.


----------



## eris0xff

mechans1 said:


>


 
 Thanks for the recommendation.  I did originally look for a Raytheon 5751 Windmill Getter, but at the time they were really hard to come by, even on ebay.
  
 It seems that it's now available from a few of my favorite vendors so I think think I'll try it.   
  
 You're right.   None of the good ones are cheap.   I think the Raytheon 12AX7 organ tubes I found were about $50 and the Windmills are anywhere from $85 to $150 depending on the vendor.
  
 eris


----------



## skyline315

I'll chime in.
  
 I've tried about 8 tubes so far.  My top two at the moment:
  
 1)  Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrometop (green print) - Nice, clear sound.  Very detailed with a good soundstage.  The bass seems slightly elevated, which is often a good thing.  Very occasionally it'll make the overall sound signature sound a little disjointed.
  
 2) Amperex 6DJ8 Orange Label (made in Great Britain - actually a rebranded Mullard) - Not quite as clear as the Sylvania above.  Smaller soundstage.  Warmer signature overall.  BUT, the overall package is REALLY nice.  The sound signature is very coherent and enjoyable.  Involving.
  
 I've also got the Frankenember setup, but haven't tried it.  Doubt I will, to be honest.  I enjoy simplicity, and it's really more than I feel like dealing with.
  
  
 Next up - A Russian 6N6P Gold Grid.  Recommended by Jeremy, so I plan to get it in next week to add it to the mix.


----------



## Solrighal

skyline315 said:


> I'll chime in.
> 
> I've tried about 8 tubes so far.  My top two at the moment:
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm also looking at these. I'll wait to hear your impressions. Where are you sourcing it from?


----------



## skyline315

solrighal said:


> I'm also looking at these. I'll wait to hear your impressions. Where are you sourcing it from?


 
 I'm going to order straight from Jeremy.
  
 He's the one that recommended it, and I like giving my business to good people.
  
 He's got them $19.99/each.


----------



## HOWIE13

skyline315 said:


> I'm going to order straight from Jeremy.
> 
> He's the one that recommended it, and I like giving my business to good people.
> 
> He's got them $19.99/each.


 
 I have similar tubes to those. They are very musical to my ears. They have a relatively high filament current of around 750mA,


----------



## Tunkejazz

skyline315 said:


> I'm going to order straight from Jeremy.
> 
> He's the one that recommended it, and I like giving my business to good people.
> 
> He's got them $19.99/each.


 
 something like this? I got this one from Johan to test. I had not given it much of a chance, but it actually sounds very clean and nice.


----------



## skyline315

Good to hear the encouraging words.
  
 Tunkejkazz, I actually don't know what it looks like.  Jeremey doesn't have pictures up on his site.  But, googling 6n6p gold grid brings up results similar to what you posted.
  
 He described it as musical, so that jives with what you're saying.


----------



## Solrighal

tunkejazz said:


> something like this? I got this one from Johan to test. I had not given it much of a chance, but it actually sounds very clean and nice.


 
  
 Who's Johan?


----------



## Tunkejazz

Johan-71, he has not been around for some time. We both live in Stockholm and he prepared a small package with different tubes that I could borrow for testing and getting an idea of what I like. I am truly thankful to him.


----------



## Tunkejazz

Another tube that I have re-discovered lately is my Raytheon 6sn7gt vt-231. Originally, I thought it was a bit bright (I tried it with my standard low output resistance setting), but with the mid resistance  it is actually very good. Very clear and the brightness is gone. The good thing is that these are not as popular as many other 6sn7 tubes and therefore not as expensive.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Another tube that I have re-discovered lately is my Raytheon 6sn7gt vt-231. Originally, I thought it was a bit bright (I tried it with my standard low output resistance setting), but with the mid resistance  it is actually very good. Very clear and the brightness is gone. The good thing is that these are not as popular as many other 6sn7 tubes and therefore not as expensive.


 
  
 Yes, that's very interesting because, when I think about the Raytheons I've tried, including 9 pins and EF95 (not tried Octals) the thing that has struck me is they seem to have a commonality of clarity and excellent instrument separation, yet without being overly bright -just as you say.
 I like them for solo instrumental music, but-when it comes to more complex music I sometimes find I'm listening more to the individual instruments than the music. In other words the instruments are so separated in the sound stage that sometimes homogeneous harmony is lacking-well to my ears anyway. Hope that makes sense.
  
 About the 6n6p's, there are two variations I've heard before- one 6n6p-i and a 6n6p-ir. Anyway, besides differences in filament current, there are subtle differences in sound- I found the ir to have slightly less depth to the sound-stage than the 6n6p, whilst the i had a bit more treble detail but slightly less bass-all very subjective, and could be chance sampling differences, of course. This was with the Ember and K612.
 The 6n6p is the one I tend to go back to.
 There are also several different Russian factories which made, and are maybe still making, these tubes.


----------



## Tunkejazz

Like I said at diyah...I am weak to temptation


----------



## Demo3

Another pic of an "Franken Ember".
 That green/yellow cable running out from the volume knob is what I use for extra grounding because without it I get humming.


----------



## Solrighal

tunkejazz said:


> Like I said at diyah...I am weak to temptation


 
  
  


demo3 said:


> Another pic of an "Franken Ember"


 
  
 No offence guys but Frankenember would have to sound damned good for me to have that in my line of sight. Not attractive at all, IMO.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Like I said at diyah...I am weak to temptation


 
 So can I tempt you to try the 6J5's?


----------



## connieflyer

solrighal said:


> No offence guys but Frankenember would have to sound damned good for me to have that in my line of sight. Not attractive at all, IMO.


 
 And it does just that. Better than my 6sn7 sylvaniz VT231, or gtb with green print, and even better than my Ken Rad VT231.  I check back and use these tubes for a week and then switch back and always hear that the difference is better.  As far as look go, beauty is only skin deep, once you hear them, they start to look better all the time, the normal ember looks kind of frail in comparison.


----------



## Demo3

I do notice that on some, the caps on top are perpendicular to the front of the Ember and some parallel, even though the adapter looks like the same manufacturer.  I am kinda partial to the parallel myself.  My wife asked me if it made any difference to the way it sounds... yes, mine sounds the best.


----------



## Tunkejazz

demo3 said:


> I do notice that on some, the caps on top are perpendicular to the front of the Ember and some parallel, even though the adapter looks like the same manufacturer.  I am kinda partial to the parallel myself.  My wife asked me if it made any difference to the way it sounds... yes, mine sounds the best.:atsmile:



BUT the one I have makes it easier to decide where each cap should be connected. 

@Solrighal: It trully sounds very special despite the looks, don't be fooled by that! As I said...I was originally very skeptic.


----------



## ericr

Heard the Franken Ember at the Seattle summer meet in July an wasn't sold, but swapping in the FE and the waiting 5 minutes for warm-up made it hard to tell for sure.

Now I'm looking forward to our next meet as I've bought a second Ember for work and we'll be able to keep both the FE and the 6SN7W hot and quickly switch between them for a better comparison.

Recently I scored a great price on the Tung-Sol 6SN7 round black plate that's really starting to grow on me as it breaks in. It will be interesting to see.how it.compares as well.


----------



## Solrighal

tunkejazz said:


> @Solrighal: It trully sounds very special despite the looks, don't be fooled by that! As I said...I was originally very skeptic.


 
  
 Yeah, I can see me buying this set-up eventually. Not right now though as we're currently planning & saving up for a big move to France. Once I'm settled in there we'll see.


----------



## Tunkejazz

solrighal said:


> Yeah, I can see me buying this set-up eventually. Not right now though as we're currently planning & saving up for a big move to France. Once I'm settled in there we'll see.




Good luck with the moving! At least you are moving south


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Yeah, I can see me buying this set-up eventually. Not right now though as we're currently planning & saving up for a big move to France. Once I'm settled in there we'll see.


 
 France sounds fantastic! I'm very envious-all that lovely wine-and you should be able to source some cheap French Visseaux 6J5's


----------



## Solrighal

tunkejazz said:


> Good luck with the moving! At least you are moving south


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> France sounds fantastic! I'm very envious-all that lovely wine-and you should be able to source some cheap French Visseaux 6J5's


 
  
 Thanks guys. Yeah, it has to be south unfortunately, getting old now. There's a few things still needing to happen but we're getting close. This time next year we should be settled in Provence.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Anyone try Psvane treasure series 12at7?


----------



## Tunkejazz

searchofsub said:


> Anyone try Psvane treasure series 12at7?



First time I hear about them!


----------



## HOWIE13

ericr said:


> Heard the Franken Ember at the Seattle summer meet in July an wasn't sold, but swapping in the FE and the waiting 5 minutes for warm-up made it hard to tell for sure.
> 
> Now I'm looking forward to our next meet as I've bought a second Ember for work and we'll be able to keep both the FE and the 6SN7W hot and quickly switch between them for a better comparison.
> 
> Recently I scored a great price on the Tung-Sol 6SN7 round black plate that's really starting to grow on me as it breaks in. It will be interesting to see.how it.compares as well.


 
 I recently bought one of those Tung-Sols too. I've tried it in the Ember and Horizon.
 I find it exceptionally and beautifully clear and clean sounding, with tight, but well extended bass and sweet treble and neutral mids-BUT too often I find it lacks musical engagement, like a beautifully presented meal which lacks flavour.
 Personally, for 6SN7's I prefer my Bad Boys for overall musicality.
 I may save up for one of those Chinese CV181 Treasure tubes which are being talked about a lot.


----------



## skyline315

Folks, don't overlook the 6N6P.
  
 Very affordable tube.  Jeremy recommended it as one of his favorite, and the guy knows what he's talking about.
  
 Very clean sound, though more on the "tube" sounding side of the spectrum.  Not as clean and clear as my Sylvania 6SN7 (more of a solid state sound), but more engaging.  Great texture and ambiance.  Dirty guitars sound nice and gritty, hand claps sound natural, etc.  
  
 It draws a ton of current, so you'll need the Ember II or the Ember 1 with supercharger to pull it off.


----------



## ericr

howie13 said:


> I recently bought one of those Tung-Sols too. I've tried it in the Ember and Horizon.
> I find it exceptionally and beautifully clear and clean sounding, with tight, but well extended bass and sweet treble and neutral mids-BUT too often I find it lacks musical engagement, like a beautifully presented meal which lacks flavour.
> Personally, for 6SN7's I prefer my Bad Boys for overall musicality.
> I may save up for one of those Chinese CV181 Treasure tubes which are being talked about a lot.




Try giving the Tung-Sol BRP another 40 hours or so. At first I was really puzzled what all the hype was about, then after way more burn in than any other tube has needed it really starting coming around. Currently I would place it as my second favorite tubes. It's a bit warmer than my Sylvania 6SN7W black base, who's slightly brighter signature I prefer.

If I still had my Beyer T90 the Tung-Sol would be my tube of choice for sure.

Sounds like a.Sylvania Bad Boy should be the next tube on my target list.


----------



## HOWIE13

ericr said:


> Try giving the Tung-Sol BRP another 40 hours or so. At first I was really puzzled what all the hype was about, then after way more burn in than any other tube has needed it really starting coming around. Currently I would place it as my second favorite tubes. It's a bit warmer than my Sylvania 6SN7W black base, who's slightly brighter signature I prefer.
> 
> If I still had my Beyer T90 the Tung-Sol would be my tube of choice for sure.
> 
> Sounds like a.Sylvania Bad Boy should be the next tube on my target list.


 
 Absolutely-you are quite correct- unfortunately I am far too impatient. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
 I've even only had my Ember for 4 weeks!
 I think you would like a 'Bad Boy'- though be sure to buy the real deal. There's been lots of discussions on these Forums about Dealers describing all sorts of Sylvanias as 'Bad Boys'.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> First time I hear about them!


 
 Yep-I have been reading about Shuguangs, like the CV181- clearly they can sound very good-but the euphoria is not universal.
 I've read there are different grades of some of these tubes, depending on which dealer you purchase from. 
 This makes me wary about laying out a load of money for them, but I'm still thinking about it.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Did anyone compare a stock WA7 to ember 2 with good tubes?


----------



## DavidA

searchofsub said:


> Did anyone compare a stock WA7 to ember 2 with good tubes?


 
 Did try the WA7d earlier this year and its not bad but for the price there are many other better options.  I have original Ember and like it much better than the WA7d even with upgraded tubes in the WA7d.  The DAC section of the WA7d is the weak link but even just using the amp section of the WA7d its not an amp that I would recommend.  Only thing the WA7d has is its look, like a piece of art on your table top and takes up very little room if space is a problem.


----------



## connieflyer

I read a couple of reviews and they said using the new tube power supply really makes a difference, looking at a couple of used ones on the amp sale list here..I agree with the look of the cubes, art work for sure.  If I had a few more dollars, I would buy them, put them on the desk but have the ember in the back and listen to it instead.  Beautiful design.


----------



## Luckbad

What are some good tubes for the Project Ember at a reasonable price (and easy to find) that...

Give maximum bass (especially sub-bass) and smooth highs (I'm very sensitive to treble fatigue).

Headphones include: Sennheiser HD650, JVC HP-DX1000, and various IEMs.

Thanks!


----------



## eris0xff

luckbad said:


> What are some good tubes for the Project Ember at a reasonable price (and easy to find) that...
> 
> Give maximum bass (especially sub-bass) and smooth highs (I'm very sensitive to treble fatigue).
> 
> ...


 

 Depends what you mean by reasonable price.
  
 I've found Raytheon 12AX7 Organ tubes to be especially nice for the price.  On my Ember they give excellent bass and very nice air.  My supplier has them for about $50. YMMV.  Ebay can be useful,but its hard to know how reliable the suppliers are.


----------



## Luckbad

eris0xff said:


> Depends what you mean by reasonable price.
> 
> I've found Raytheon 12AX7 Organ tubes to be especially nice for the price.  On my Ember they give excellent bass and very nice air.  My supplier has them for about $50. YMMV.  Ebay can be useful,but its hard to know how reliable the suppliers are.


 
  
 I don't know what a reasonable price is, to be honest. How long do they typically last?
  
 I was thinking something in the <$30 range, but if I can find perfection a bit higher I'll try whatever.


----------



## skyline315

luckbad said:


> I don't know what a reasonable price is, to be honest. How long do they typically last?
> 
> I was thinking something in the <$30 range, but if I can find perfection a bit higher I'll try whatever.


 
 6n6p gold grid.
  
 You can buy it from Jeremy directly.


----------



## Luckbad

Project Ember II with 6N6P Gold Grid (recommended on two different forums) ships out tomorrow from Garage1217!


----------



## DecentLevi

luckbad said:


> Project Ember II with 6N6P Gold Grid (recommended on two different forums) ships out tomorrow from Garage1217!


 
 Can you please provide a photo of what that is?


----------



## Luckbad

decentlevi said:


> Can you please provide a photo of what that is?


 
  
 It's just a Russian tube that you can get from Jeremy at Garage1217 directly. I want a couple of tubes to mess around with.


----------



## Solrighal

I'm really enjoying my new (to me) 1962 Amperex Bugle Boy. Hard-hitting bass, lush mids & a totally grain-free treble. What's not to like?


----------



## Tunkejazz

solrighal said:


> I'm really enjoying my new (to me) 1962 Amperex Bugle Boy. Hard-hitting bass, lush mids & a totally grain-free treble. What's not to like?


 
 Nice! What type of Bugle Boy did you get?


----------



## skyline315

luckbad said:


> Project Ember II with 6N6P Gold Grid (recommended on two different forums) ships out tomorrow from Garage1217!


 
  
 The one coming from Jeremy will be new, so give it some hours to settle in.  It sounds a little dark/treble shy at first, but opens up after it gets nice and toasty.  I noticed a pretty drastic change over the first few hours, but nothing major after that.


----------



## Solrighal

tunkejazz said:


> Nice! What type of Bugle Boy did you get?




I'm not sure what you mean but it came from the Herleen factory in the Netherlands and dates from 1962. It has a large 'O' Getter. 

It sounds superb & better than all my 6SN7's including the one VT-231 I have. It might not be the best for classical music though but who cares? I rarely listen to classical.


----------



## Johan-71

Was it a 6dj8 or a 12ax,y,u 7 tube.
I only have the 6dj8 version my self, bought a whole bunch of them for my he-400.
After upgrading to he-500 they didn't get to many houers in my ember, maby I should try them again. 


solrighal said:


> I'm not sure what you mean but it came from the Herleen factory in the Netherlands and dates from 1962. It has a large 'O' Getter.
> 
> It sounds superb & better than all my 6SN7's including the one VT-231 I have. It might not be the best for classical music though but who cares? I rarely listen to classical.


----------



## Solrighal

johan-71 said:


> Was it a 6dj8 or a 12ax,y,u 7 tube.
> I only have the 6dj8 version my self, bought a whole bunch of them for my he-400.
> After upgrading to he-500 they didn't get to many houers in my ember, maby I should try them again.


 
  
 It's a 6DJ8. Wonderful!


----------



## skyline315

solrighal said:


> It's a 6DJ8. Wonderful!



 


I like my 6DJ8 amperex orange globe. It doesn't do one thing spectacularly, but it's a nice all rounder. A welcoming, engaging sound.


----------



## Johan-71

I though so to if I remember corect. I have a lot of different ones. The sound is almost the same in everyone but my favorite was the one with the big halo getter. Second was the D-getter.
A complete tube and it tamed the harshnes in the he-400.
I still have my 12bh7 Green letter Sylvania as my favorite 9-pin and Telefunken E88cc.

Happy listening. 

Johan


----------



## Tunkejazz

The telefunken is indeed very special


----------



## DavidA

johan-71 said:


> I though so to if I remember corect. I have a lot of different ones. The sound is almost the same in everyone but my favorite was the one with the big halo getter. Second was the D-getter.
> A complete tube and it tamed the harshnes in the he-400.
> I still have my 12bh7 Green letter Sylvania as my favorite 9-pin and Telefunken E88cc.
> 
> ...


 

 Tried my Telefunken 6922/ECC88 CCa with the Ember and it wasn't as good sounding as the Telefunken 12AX7.  The CCa's are one of the best sounding tubes I have for my Lyr2 but in the Ember I haven't had much success with 6922/ECC88, the 12XXX series usually sound better for me.


----------



## Johan-71

davida said:


> Tried my Telefunken 6922/ECC88 CCa with the Ember and it wasn't as good sounding as the Telefunken 12AX7.  The CCa's are one of the best sounding tubes I have for my Lyr2 but in the Ember I haven't had much success with 6922/ECC88, the 12XXX series usually sound better for me.




To me its the other way, I prefere the 6V tubes. The only exeption is The 12BH7 family that someone here recommended, but that's good that we hear different. Then we don't try to outbid eachother on fleabay.
I bought a real expensive 7308 2 years ago and I put it back in the box after a couple of hours and it stayed there.
Totaly owerrated to my ears.
But we all hear different. 

Cheers Johan


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

I used to have the 12bh7 Sylvania green as well as the red, I kept the red but the green was very nice as well. The red was evet slightly V shaped but a very refined sound with good bass. The RCA 12bh7 was excellent value and close to the green in sound. (All this was back when I had the Ember, I prefer the sunrise 3 with a linear power now). I'm currently using an ElectroHarmonix 12bh7 on my sunrise 3 and that too has excellent value.



johan-71 said:


> I though so to if I remember corect. I have a lot of different ones. The sound is almost the same in everyone but my favorite was the one with the big halo getter. Second was the D-getter.
> A complete tube and it tamed the harshnes in the he-400.
> I still have my 12bh7 Green letter Sylvania as my favorite 9-pin and Telefunken E88cc.
> 
> ...


----------



## DavidA

johan-71 said:


> To me its the other way, I prefere the 6V tubes. The only exeption is The 12BH7 family that someone here recommended, but that's good that we hear different. Then we don't try to outbid eachother on fleabay.
> I bought a real expensive 7308 2 years ago and I put it back in the box after a couple of hours and it stayed there.
> Totaly owerrated to my ears.
> But we all hear different.
> ...


 

 I have a few 6SN7 tubes (can't remember which, currently in storage) also but still go back to the 12XXX.  Another reason is the GF likes the glow which is blocked when you install the adapter.  I know, nothing to do with how it sounds but if she is happy I'm not stupid enough to argue with her.
 Have a great weekend


----------



## Solrighal

I've always been a fan of 6SN7's but I recently received a Bugle Boy and I have to say I prefer it's meatier sound. The separation is perhaps slightly less but overall I'm happy with it.


----------



## DavidA

solrighal said:


> I've always been a fan of 6SN7's but I recently received a Bugle Boy and I have to say I prefer it's meatier sound. The separation is perhaps slightly less but overall I'm happy with it.


 
 I got the 6SN7's based on many recommendations here and while they are good, still like the 12XXX ones more.  I think that it might also be the headphones that you are using that will match with tube used, I like the 3 6SN7's better with my HE-560 but the 12AX7 Mullard is great with the HD-700.


----------



## Solrighal

davida said:


> I got the 6SN7's based on many recommendations here and while they are good, still like the 12XXX ones more.  I think that it might also be the headphones that you are using that will match with tube used, I like the 3 6SN7's better with my HE-560 but the 12AX7 Mullard is great with the HD-700.


 
  
 What's the best tube you've heard in the Ember when driving the HD 650?


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> I'm not sure what you mean but it came from the Herleen factory in the Netherlands and dates from 1962. It has a large 'O' Getter.
> 
> It sounds superb & better than all my 6SN7's including the one VT-231 I have. It might not be the best for classical music though but who cares? I rarely listen to classical.


 
 It sounds very good with Classical too.


----------



## Johan-71

soundsgoodtome said:


> I used to have the 12bh7 Sylvania green as well as the red, I kept the red but the green was very nice as well. The red was evet slightly V shaped but a very refined sound with good bass. The RCA 12bh7 was excellent value and close to the green in sound. (All this was back when I had the Ember, I prefer the sunrise 3 with a linear power now). I'm currently using an ElectroHarmonix 12bh7 on my sunrise 3 and that too has excellent value.




I think i missed the red Sylvania, I have a couple of yellow and some White ones. 
The green one has light green letters and black plates.
I also have a couple of black plates RCA, very nice and full sound.
I used them a lot before I changed my Ifi Idac to Arcam IrDac, that combo became a little bit to warm with the he-500 for my taste. 
I still roll them and I would definitly recommend them.
I just saw that I have an ElectroHarmonix 12bh7 in my stash, haven't even broked the sealing of the box yet.
I had a period when I spent a small fortune on tubes, then I built me a pair of monoblocks with KT88 and 12SN7.
Now l'm bankrupt....


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

You sir, are a trooper. 



johan-71 said:


> I think i missed the red Sylvania, I have a couple of yellow and some White ones.
> The green one has light green letters and black plates.
> I also have a couple of black plates RCA, very nice and full sound.
> I used them a lot before I changed my Ifi Idac to Arcam IrDac, that combo became a little bit to warm with the he-500 for my taste.
> ...


----------



## Tunkejazz

This past week I have been listening (seriously, for the first time) to @Johan-71 's Philips E88CC SQ and I kind of like it also a lot. It picks less EMI than the Telefunken and somehow it sounds great with everything I have thrown at it. I have to admit that I haven't tried any 12ax7, not sure where to even get started with those


----------



## Tunkejazz

davida said:


> Tried my Telefunken 6922/ECC88 CCa with the Ember and it wasn't as good sounding as the Telefunken 12AX7.  The CCa's are one of the best sounding tubes I have for my Lyr2 but in the Ember I haven't had much success with 6922/ECC88, the 12XXX series usually sound better for me.


 
 May I ask what did the 12ax7 did better than the ECC88? (I know, it is subjective...I am still interested )


----------



## DavidA

solrighal said:


> What's the best tube you've heard in the Ember when driving the HD 650?


 
 For me the best tube for the HD-650 was the 12AU7 Telefunken, gave the best balance of bass extension and some sparkle in the highs.  I've actually moved this tube to the BH Crack where it still one of my favorites.
  


tunkejazz said:


> May I ask what did the 12ax7 did better than the ECC88? (I know, it is subjective...I am still interested )


 
 It was that I was getting a very slight channel imbalance with some of my 6922/ECC88/6DJ8 tubes that I have for my Lyr2.  I was getting matched pairs for the Lyr2 so i don't it if that was a issue causing the channel imbalance.  Another thing I like about the 12XXX series is that they tended to have a more dynamic sound to me but like I said earlier it could also be the headphones that I was using at the time.
  
 Another thing with the 12XXX series is that you can get new Mullard, Tung Sol and Electro Harmonix for a lot cheaper than Bugle boys, Telefunkens, Sylvania Jan, and other NOS tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> What's the best tube you've heard in the Ember when driving the HD 650?


 
 That's a tough question.
 For the HD650 I prefer a cool, detailed, dynamic tube rather than a warm one with bass emphasis. The ECC88 and E80CC Tungsrams and the Teslas sound good to me-also, your favourite Bugle Boy is nice to my ears as well. I find the big Russians and some Mullards too warm though for the HD650.


----------



## Tunkejazz

I went back today to my Syl Bad boy after listening for a while to the FrankenEmber. It made me realize that the latter (in my system, with my headphones) makes the lower mids a bit...congested, despite having great clarity in the rest of the range. Especially obvious with some female voice lower tones. The Syl just got it right...but it may be that my headphones are already on the warm side and enphasize this effect.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> I went back today to my Syl Bad boy after listening for a while to the FrankenEmber. It made me realize that the latter (in my system, with my headphones) makes the lower mids a bit...congested, despite having great clarity in the rest of the range. Especially obvious with some female voice lower tones. The Syl just got it right...but it may be that my headphones are already on the warm side and enphasize this effect.


 
 This is where I find the dual 6J5's have the edge over FrankenEmber as well. A bit more articulate in the lower mids -not as sweet as Bad Boy's treble, but a wider sound-stage.
 I like FrankenEmber for cooler cans, 6J5's for warmer cans and Bad Boys as an excellent all-rounder if I can't make my mind up or can't be bothered thinking too hard about pairings-like at midnight after a hard evening out.


----------



## Tunkejazz

howie13 said:


> ... or can't be bothered thinking too hard about pairings-like at midnight after a hard evening out.


 
 Yeahh!!


----------



## Solrighal

tunkejazz said:


> Yeahh!!


 
  
 It might not be down to alcohol. He could be Batman.


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> This is where I find the dual 6J5's have the edge over FrankenEmber as well. A bit more articulate in the lower mids -not as sweet as Bad Boy's treble, but a wider sound-stage.
> I like FrankenEmber for cooler cans, 6J5's for warmer cans and Bad Boys as an excellent all-rounder if I can't make my mind up or can't be bothered thinking too hard about pairings-like at midnight after a hard evening out.


 
 Howie or anybody, could you please tell me which 6J5 tubes he was using in this post? Or if anybody else can recommend a good type of 6J5 tubes that also seem to give better bass definition and soundstage than the F.E. setup, I would be 'all ears'.


----------



## Tunkejazz

decentlevi said:


> Howie or anybody, could you please tell me which 6J5 tubes he was using in this post? Or if anybody else can recommend a good type of 6J5 tubes that also seem to give better bass definition and soundstage than the F.E. setup, I would be 'all ears'.




I think he once mentioned the Visseaux 6J5G as his favourites at diyah.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> I think he once mentioned the Visseaux 6J5G as his favourites at diyah.


 
 Hey Guys
 Sorry about delay replying- just back from an amazing few days in Istanbul.
  
@Tunkejazz I've just replied to your post on DIYAH and also see below-thanks.
  
@DecentLevi The Visseaux are indeed quite warm, though quite expensive. There are also some good, cheap 6S2S Russian tubes at reasonable prices. They appear similar to 6J5. Some of my 6J5's produce a quiet background hum-but I don't hear it when music is playing, so it's not intrusive in any way, I guess this would depend on house earthing/cans. I'm using mainly K612 at present.
 There are also very good 6J5  '40-'50's Sylvanias and RCA's with silver, metal bases which can be quite cheaply picked up.
 Pinnacle are Russian origin tubes and are excellent value at £16 a pair on Ebay. 
 They all share the 7193's big holographic soundstage, and sometimes even more depth of sound, and with a better articulated, though cooler lower mid/ bass, which suits a lot of my Classical music tastes. 
 The Pinnacles or a pair of those vintage Sylvanias/RCA'S may be the best to start with if you want to try them out as they are relatively cheap and easily sourced and give a good average 6J5 sound from what I have heard. 
 Overall, they do give me a better articulated bass than the 7193 FrankenEmber- when I want it. They are not bass-heads though. I would still go for my Bad Boy for heavy bass, even if it's not as clear as with these tubes.
  
 You need a 6J5 to 6DJ8 adapter, of course, for Ember. In mine the pins are just long enough for contact to be made with Ember's socket before the adapter board hits the big front capacitors, but only just - so I have turned the board round 90 degrees, carefully making sure I didn't damage the small wire connections, and now it's solidly in the socket and looks fine to me with the tubes at right angles to the front face of Ember. You could also just add in a socket saver to gain extra height if you wanted to maintain the tubes in the conventional orientation, but it's an extra connection.......  
 Ultimately, paired with Ember and appropriate music and cans, all these different types of tubes can sound good to me, and which you prefer will depend on personal preference-as always.
  
  
 Here's the Visseaux in Ember. The Pinnacles have conventional shaped bottles, similar in size to 6SN7's:


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

HOWIE13, what kind of volume knob is that? I'd like to update my sunrise 3 with a larger volume knob.


----------



## HOWIE13

soundsgoodtome said:


> @HOWIE13, what kind of volume knob is that? I'd like to update my sunrise 3 with a larger volume knob.


 
 I bought from two or three different sellers as I wanted larger knobs for all my amps but I think this is it. On looking at it again this isn't the one-I will try and find the correct seller. I think I may have got the link on this site, actually.
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2PCS-30-16mm-Silver-Solid-Aluminum-Knob-FR-Amplifier-DAC-CD-Player-Potentiometer-/321272824594?hash=item4acd5a4312
  
 EDIT;
  
 Below is the actual one in the photo -it's more expensive than the first link's knob. 
  
 http://www.satopartsusa.com/prod_detail/default.cfm?sku=P2K4M5&title=K-52-KE-1%20Metal%20Knob
  
 Best check they would fit the Sunrise as mine are on Horizon, Starlight and Ember- but likely will be okay for Sunrise too.


----------



## Demo3

Hey HOWIE13 is that wire coming off the back (the green and yellow) your extra grounding wire?


----------



## HOWIE13

demo3 said:


> Hey HOWIE13 is that wire coming off the back (the green and yellow) your extra grounding wire?


 
 Well spotted!
  
 It's occasionally needed if I am comparing two amps at the same time, when sometimes a hum occurs.


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> ...
> @DecentLevi The Visseaux are indeed quite warm, though quite expensive. There are also some good, cheap 6S2S Russian tubes at reasonable prices. They appear similar to 6J5. Some of my 6J5's produce a quiet background hum-but I don't hear it when music is playing, so it's not intrusive in any way, I guess this would depend on house earthing/cans. I'm using mainly K612 at present.
> There are also very good 6J5  '40-'50's Sylvanias and RCA's with silver, metal bases which can be quite cheaply picked up.
> Pinnacle are Russian origin tubes and are excellent value at £16 a pair on Ebay.
> ...


 
  
 Howie, thanks very much for this helpful post. Here's what I gather, correct me if I'm wrong:
  
 Recommended 6J5 tubes for improved bass quality and sounsdstage over the Franken Ember setup (besides the Visseaux):
 - 6S2S Russian tubes
 - 6J5  '40-'50's Sylvanias and RCA's with silver, metal bases
 - Pinnacle 6J5 (Russian origin)
  
 However if you don't mind to let me know:
 Are the 6S2S Russian tubes fully compatible in the 6J5 adapter (socket fit and voltage wise)?
 How do I know if the Pinnacle 6J5's are Russian origin (will it say on the product description)? 
 Have you tried all these tubes? And from what you're saying, it sounds like these listed all sound fairly similar.
 Can I just buy any 6J5 to 6DJ8 adapter and then use it with my same 7193 to 6SN7 adapter I was using with the F.E., or do I need to buy it only from Garage 1217?


----------



## Asr

I just updated my 2014 review of the Ember with comments on some new tubes (6SN7, 6GU7, and 6H6N): http://www.head-fi.org/products/garage1217-project-ember-hybrid-headphone-amplifier-preamp/reviews/10302
  
 Posted a new photo in the review too, to show off the 6SN7 and aluminum plate. Heck, since I have a second new photo I might as well post it here.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Howie, thanks very much for this helpful post. Here's what I gather, correct me if I'm wrong:
> 
> Recommended 6J5 tubes for improved bass quality and sounsdstage over the Franken Ember setup (besides the Visseaux):
> - 6S2S Russian tubes
> ...


 
  
 You have it correct except I wouldn't single out the Visseaux from the rest except it's a bit warmer with my K612's, and a different shape.
 6S2S are compatible with the 6J5 socket.
 I read somewhere that Pinnacle are Russian tubes-and they look identical to some other Russians I bought-maybe some are not though. Some say in the description they are Russian, some don't but they look identical to the Russian ones. I haven't done an extensive Google search about them.
 Yep- I've tried all those I mention. They do all have similar open and holographic sound-stages, which is what struck me most about them, together with their controlled, articulate bass and sweet treble, (using K612's, have not really assessed with other headphones).
 Ember works with a 6J5 to 6DJ8 adapter directly-no need for any other adapter as long as you can avoid the adapter board hitting the large front capacitors. The solution would be either to also use a 6DJ8 socket saver to gain extra height or purchase a 6J5 to 6DJ8 adapter that you can swivel-like the one in the picture I posted, which are readily available on eBay.-just be careful not to damage the connections when turning it. You don't use the 7193 to 6SN7 adapter at all.
 You could also use a 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter and connect that to Jeremy's adapter, which would go into the Ember socket. That would give you the extra height to avoid those big capacitors and look very nice too.


----------



## HOWIE13

asr said:


> I just updated my 2014 review of the Ember with comments on some new tubes (6SN7, 6GU7, and 6H6N): http://www.head-fi.org/products/garage1217-project-ember-hybrid-headphone-amplifier-preamp/reviews/10302
> 
> Posted a new photo in the review too, to show off the 6SN7 and aluminum plate. Heck, since I have a second new photo I might as well post it here.


 
 I hope you get to hear that Tung-Sol 12ax7. It's sounds great in Ember and is low in hiss and microphonics compared to most high gain tubes too.


----------



## connieflyer

Speaking of Tung Sol, I am presently listening to a TS 6SN7 from 1949 week 52, and it is great.  Lots of clarity, highs are smooth, and bass tight. The tube has alot of glow, the elements look like they are on fire. I am thinking it is fairly low hours.  In general I like TS tubes, have been on another quest to thin out my tube collection, and get down to just a few.  This one is a keeper, along with the KenRad  VT231, and maybe the GTB I got from Jeremy, the Sylvania vt 231 is going as are most of the other 6sn7's and all the 9 pins except one Amperex bb 12at7, letting the other two go, but keeping the 7193's still the most holographic tubes I have used.  I may see if Jeremy wants to buy these like my last batch or just put them all on Ebay as a group, half price probably.  Listening to some piano peices now with the TS and they are very accurate, fast attack and note decay very noticable.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Speaking of Tung Sol, I am presently listening to a TS 6SN7 from 1949 week 52, and it is great.  Lots of clarity, highs are smooth, and bass tight. The tube has alot of glow, the elements look like they are on fire. I am thinking it is fairly low hours.  In general I like TS tubes, have been on another quest to thin out my tube collection, and get down to just a few.  This one is a keeper, along with the KenRad  VT231, and maybe the GTB I got from Jeremy, the Sylvania vt 231 is going as are most of the other 6sn7's and all the 9 pins except one Amperex bb 12at7, letting the other two go, but keeping the 7193's still the most holographic tubes I have used.  I may see if Jeremy wants to buy these like my last batch or just put them all on Ebay as a group, half price probably.  Listening to some piano peices now with the TS and they are very accurate, fast attack and note decay very noticable.


 
 Spot on. Could you tell me how you interpret the date code? I have two with numbers 322425-3 and 322351-3 on them. There are no other codes. Are these the date codes?


----------



## Tunkejazz

In my case the Ken-rad has been getting a lot of time in a box since I got the Bad Boys. In fact the latter have much better synergy with my headphones.

Today I picked a Reflektor 6N23P "single wire" (these are hard to find!). Amazing clarity, I don't think I have heard anything like this before AND it has a great buggie factor in the bottom end. Highly recommended, this one is staying on the Ember for a while


----------



## connieflyer

howie13 said:


> Spot on. Could you tell me how you interpret the date code? I have two with numbers 322425-3 and 322351-3 on them. There are no other codes. Are these the date codes?


 
 http://www.triodeel.com/eiacode.htm lots of info some incomplete also toward the bottom of the page  https://www.tubemuseum.org/SearchResults.asp?Cat=30
  
 http://pax-comm.com/pa01042.htm
 http://www.blackswampaudio.com/Tubes/USA_Manu_Codes.php
 bottom of page
  
  
 Looks to me Tung Sol- 322
 42- 1942
 5- week 5
 -3 would be third shift


----------



## DecentLevi

I've been enjoying the fantastic and contrasting qualities of these 6SN7 tubes: GE GTA, GE GTB, Westinghouse GT, and Franken Ember when I want more lushness and soundstage.
  
 Howie thanks very much for your advice from this excellent post on the last page, I'll start digging about a possible 6J5 setup and this should contrast the LC amp pretty well.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi again @HOWIE13 - I have found a few 6J5 tubes, but they are mostly 6J5*GT* and the straight form factor, like the same sort of shape as a 7193 or 6SN7 tube, bot not bottle-shaped like in your photo on the last page. Since I'm trying to get ones that sound similar to the ones you recommended, does it make a different if they're straight on the side, or it it's a GT?
  
 yours:

  
 Then here's some Sylv. / RCA'sI was looking at - with silver plates but some have black, and some silver getters


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Hi again @HOWIE13 - I have found a few 6J5 tubes, but they are mostly 6J5*GT* and the straight form factor, like the same sort of shape as a 7193 or 6SN7 tube, bot not bottle-shaped like in your photo on the last page. Since I'm trying to get ones that sound similar to the ones you recommended, does it make a different if they're straight on the side, or it it's a GT?
> 
> yours:
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks.
 Only the Visseaux is shaped like a Coca Cola bottle. Those Sylvanias are similar to mine-just mine are black print. The GT just means 'glass tubular'. Their bass is well controlled and articulate though, not lush -but if it's lushness you are after I would consider a 'Bad Boy' or KR V231, 6SN7, though their sound-stage isn't as big and they are expensive!
 I feel at this stage the only way you will truly know if 6J5's have a place in your system is to try them-so few people are using them there is little contemporary information about their sound. You may completely disagree with how I find them.
 By the way,-did you sell your Capella?


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> http://www.triodeel.com/eiacode.htm lots of info some incomplete also toward the bottom of the page  https://www.tubemuseum.org/SearchResults.asp?Cat=30
> 
> http://pax-comm.com/pa01042.htm
> http://www.blackswampaudio.com/Tubes/USA_Manu_Codes.php
> ...


 
 Fantastic, thanks for all that helpful info. I forgot to say I have replaced the power tubes in my LD3 with these Tung-Sols-much better than the original Chinese ones they provided. They are very versatile tubes.
 EDIT: meant LD2, not LD3.


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks. I ordered both those sets of 6J5 tubes and will post my impressions after I try them. Seems a 6J5 to 6DJ8 adapter doesn't exist under that name, so I contacted the main eBay seller of these from Hong Kong and he told me it's called _Dual 6J5G 6C5G VT-94 CV1932 L63 VR67 TO 6CG7 6FQ7 tube converter adapter_, which has the same pins as the 6DJ8 - FYI for anyone else also interested.
  
 I'm still trying to sell the Capella amp - because the Ember blows it to bits in every way.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Thanks. I ordered both those sets of 6J5 tubes and will post my impressions after I try them. Seems a 6J5 to 6DJ8 adapter doesn't exist under that name, so I contacted the main eBay seller of these from Hong Kong and he told me it's called _Dual 6J5G 6C5G VT-94 CV1932 L63 VR67 TO 6CG7 6FQ7 tube converter adapter_, which has the same pins as the 6DJ8 - FYI for anyone else also interested.
> 
> I'm still trying to sell the Capella amp - because the Ember blows it to bits in every way.


 
  I will be very interested in your assessment.  I agree about the amps though I still like to sometimes use the Capella as a pre amp.


----------



## Demo3

Is that name "Dual 6J5G 6C5G VT-94 CV1932 L63 VR67 TO 6CG7 6FQ7 tube converter adapter" a direct translation from Mandarin Chinese.


----------



## CookiePrime

Noob question: Does Project Ember come with a tube installed when you buy one?
  
 And if so, how does Project Ember sound with default/stock tube?
  
 I'll be stuck with stock tubes for the first few months (no budget) so I'm wondering if I'll be better
  
 off with Project Polaris, if that's better than Project Ember + stock tube from Garage 1217.


----------



## dpump

​


cookieprime said:


> Noob question: Does Project Ember come with a tube installed when you buy one?
> 
> And if so, how does Project Ember sound with default/stock tube?
> 
> ...


 

  Yes, Ember comes with a tube. You can talk to Jeremy when you order and he can help you choose a tube. You may have to pay a little more for a better tube, but it will generally be much less than buying from eBay or from a tube dealer. And Jeremy tests and guarantees the tubes he sells. ​


----------



## Luckbad

cookieprime said:


> Noob question: Does Project Ember come with a tube installed when you buy one?
> 
> And if so, how does Project Ember sound with default/stock tube?
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Polaris is absolutely excellent, as is the Ember. With the Polaris, you can actually get quite a few flavors of sound (kinda like rolling tubes) from its plethora of options.
  
 With the Ember II, you're going to get sucked into tube rolling and will spend lots of money buying various tubes for slight sonic differences. If that appeals to you, it's the better option, but know that it will cost you lots of money long term as you seek the perfect sound.
  
 I've had both, and currently have the Project Ember II sitting next to me.
  
 That said, I just posted my review of the Polaris: http://www.basshead.club/garage1217-project-polaris-review/


----------



## Solrighal

It doesn't _have to _cost a lot of money. I've spent around $100 at most and I have a sound I'm perfectly happy with.


----------



## Mechans1

How much is a lot?  You can buy expensive tubes if  compared with other tubes.  But as the previous post/poster pointed out, you can go bottom fishing and still end up with a nice variety of tubes.  I have found that "old  expensive tubes" aren't  all that much different when compared with "inexpensive tubes".
 Which tube provided by Garage 1217 as stock for Ember?
 Again to the poster of this sub-thread how much$ is a lot?


----------



## Luckbad

My comment on spending lots on tubes is basically related to stretching yourself thin to get the Ember. If that's the case, spending hundreds on tubes over time might not be appealing.

The a Polaris great, less expensive, and slightly more versatile. You can get super obvious sound changes with the bandwidth adjustment.

That said, rolling tubes is kinda fun (and addictive), and the Ember is theoretically the better amp. The Polaris is still a great choice, though.


----------



## HOWIE13

cookieprime said:


> Noob question: Does Project Ember come with a tube installed when you buy one?
> 
> And if so, how does Project Ember sound with default/stock tube?
> 
> ...


 
 As dpump suggests I would discuss your dilemma with Jeremy. If you tell him the types of music you like to listen to, the type of sound you like and the cans you have he will advise you.
 Jeremy is passionate about his amplifiers and his prime concern is that we should enjoy them.


----------



## ericr

mechans1 said:


> ...Which tube provided by Garage 1217 as stock for Ember?




It varies over time. I have an Ember at home and many months later I bought a second for work. The first came with a Russian tube, the second one came with a JJ.

Howie13 is giving you excellent advise to contact Jeremy at Garage1217. Jeremy is one of the good guys and provides excellent customer service.

FWIW, I originally bought a Polaris for work but quickly sold it and bought the second Ember. Sure the Polaris gave 96% of the Ember's performance but it was an easy choice to get 100% for a few dollars more.

-Eric


----------



## CookiePrime

Thanks for the help everyone. Greatly appreciated.
  
 I will email Jeremy for advice, I hope he can clear my dilemma. 
  
 Polaris does sound like a sweet amp, but right now my mind is leaning towards Ember.
  
 Tube rolling sounds fun!


----------



## Luckbad

cookieprime said:


> Thanks for the help everyone. Greatly appreciated.
> 
> I will email Jeremy for advice, I hope he can clear my dilemma.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Tube rolling _is _fun. As I mentioned, I've had both, and I still have an Ember... because tube rolling is fun!


----------



## Astral Abyss

I'm looking at picking up an Ember.  I have a Lyr 2, so I already have a healthy supply of tubes I can try out in it.  I also have a couple 6SN7 tubes I can't use in the Lyr 2 that I'd like to try out. (got em for cheap on ebay when looking for other tubes)  I'd be pairing it with a Modi 2 Uber.  Might make a good Christmas gift.
  
 EDIT:  By the way, I love tube rolling.  It's fun scouring ebay looking for deals.  If all you do is lowball it, you won't end up spending much and you'll quickly get a feel for what tubes normally sell for.  Every time I start getting bored with my Lyr 2, I just roll in some different tubes and the fun begins again.


----------



## HOWIE13

astral abyss said:


> I'm looking at picking up an Ember.  I have a Lyr 2, so I already have a healthy supply of tubes I can try out in it.  I also have a couple 6SN7 tubes I can't use in the Lyr 2 that I'd like to try out. (got em for cheap on ebay when looking for other tubes)  I'd be pairing it with a Modi 2 Uber.  Might make a good Christmas gift.
> 
> EDIT:  By the way, I love tube rolling.  It's fun scouring ebay looking for deals.  If all you do is lowball it, you won't end up spending much and you'll quickly get a feel for what tubes normally sell for.  Every time I start getting bored with my Lyr 2, I just roll in some different tubes and the fun begins again.


 
 A whole new world of high heater current tube rolling awaits you. Very exciting.


----------



## coinmaster




----------



## Astral Abyss

Well, the best part would be not having to pay a fortune for 6922/e88cc and 7308/e188cc tubes anymore.

So yeah, I'm pretty excited when thinking about that.


----------



## skyline315

luckbad said:


> With the Ember II, you're going to get sucked into tube rolling and will spend lots of money buying various tubes for slight sonic differences. If that appeals to you, it's the better option, but know that it will cost you lots of money long term as you seek the perfect sound.


 
  
 That's not true for everyone.  I've spent a grand total of $25 on a single tube thus far   Of course, I cheated...bought the amp 2nd hand and it came with several tubes already.  
  
 Listen to people who have been around the block with this amp and make a decision.  Better yet, just take Jeremy's advice on a 6N6P Gold Grid and call it a day.


----------



## Luckbad

skyline315 said:


> That's not true for everyone.  I've spent a grand total of $25 on a single tube thus far   Of course, I cheated...bought the amp 2nd hand and it came with several tubes already.
> 
> Listen to people who have been around the block with this amp and make a decision.  Better yet, just take Jeremy's advice on a 6N6P Gold Grid and call it a day.


 
  
 I'm using the 6N6P Gold Grid.


----------



## Tunkejazz

skyline315 said:


> That's not true for everyone.  I've spent a grand total of $25 on a single tube thus far   Of course, I cheated...bought the amp 2nd hand and it came with several tubes already.
> 
> Listen to people who have been around the block with this amp and make a decision.  Better yet, just take Jeremy's advice on a 6N6P Gold Grid and call it a day.




The Russians 6n6p can sound great. I recently got a 6n23p "single wire" and I am extremely impressed but these go for ~$30, which is not that cheap. In my opinion it sounds better than all the e88cc that I have tried so far: a lot of clarity, fun deep bass and great treeble (not harsh but present).


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

What's a good source for this gold grid and what phones are you guys matching with it?


----------



## Tunkejazz

soundsgoodtome said:


> What's a good source for this gold grid and what phones are you guys matching with it?


 

 I regularly use HE400i and Denon D2000. Both sound great, although I always end up using the HE400i in my office. I normally use a Ifi nano idsd connected to the Ember, but at home I have a Naim Dac. The ifi nano idsd as a standalone dac (via the RCA output) is actually great. The built-in headphone amp section is just ok (not very powerful), but combined with the Ember/Polaris it gives great results.
  
 AFAIK, the 6N6P can sound great or "average" depending on the batch/year, and therefore Jeremy is probably your best friend here if you want to get a good sounding one. Apparently the earlier the date, the better.
  
 Please, always take my comments with a pinch of salt, I am clearly biased and I mostly listen to rock, jazz, blues and acoustic music


----------



## skyline315

soundsgoodtome said:


> What's a good source for this gold grid and what phones are you guys matching with it?


 
  
 Modi 2U --> Ember II --> HE-500


----------



## HOWIE13

soundsgoodtome said:


> What's a good source for this gold grid and what phones are you guys matching with it?


 
 Try Jeremy. I got one from him recently and it's a very good tube, like liquid honey with HD650 and nicely balances the sharper detail of my K612 and K701's.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Jeremy it is! Thanks guys, looking forward to trying a new tube to rekindle me amp. (Project Sunrise 3 btw)


----------



## Mechans1

It can be an inexpensive way to change your sound or conversely as in my case ultimately  expensive. 
 I became hopelessly addicted to the sound changes I could get by changing tubes.  Over the course of about a dozen years, after discovering modern tube audio, I have amassed a fairly large collection of tubes.  I have sold or traded away very few.  I tell myself I should but what would I replace them with?. At first it was just some bottom fishing 6SN7s but I eventually found that many of the  tubes I coveted were just not sold at really low prices, and I ended up paying market price for a good percentage of the collection as it is now.  
 So I warn you it can be a very slippery slope.  If you are disciplined, fear not, but if you are not meticulous....you have been warned.


----------



## DecentLevi

OK guys I told you I would report back on my findings with the new 6J5 tubes - so without further ado let me help usher in the new era of Ember tube rolling (thanks to Howie).
 
So I got my 1-to-2 adapter which on it says "6J5 to ECC38" and two sets of these tubes, the first of which I will review in this post. Firstly about the look: OMG finally I have abolished that ugly, tall wobbly 'Franken Ember' setup, replacing it with something that looks quite aesthetically pleasing and fitting, and a couple inches shorter.
 
*6J5GT RCA branded SELECTRON NOS 1957 (metal ring base) *[dual setup]
 
     ​ _Compare the visual delight of the 6J5 to the inherent fuglyness of the 7193's _



  

Now here are my impressions after a very careful multi-hour comparison:
 As I started to play my first 'headphone test track' I found myself unable to stop listening, whereas I would usually just skip around. Then I found myself wondering where I am, looking for any signs of drugs to make sure I'm not on something... well as I've never 'used', I knew it had to be those $%&* fine tubes!!
 
dynamics:     8.5/10 pleasing
bass:            pleasing and extends moderately low
mids:            lush, velvety but not overtly so
highs:           slightly recessed but in a very pleasing, organic and non-fatiguing way, still extending far
soundstage:   Very wide and enveloping, and as if it extrudes outward yet slightly towards the front and not overdone.
  
 These tubes on the Ember (2.0 anyway) sound punchy, dynamic, tonally correct, non-fatiguing with organic treble & mids, and have the best soundstage I have ever heard with any of my home setups thus far. *Overall 9/10*

  
*Compared to 'Franken Ember' 7193 RCA tubes* (which sound identical to Ken Rad 7193 tubes but not _too _lush:
 Maybe about 5% punchier, s.stage about 10% bigger, mids are more organic / intricate versus lush, and slightly less bright (in a good way)
  
 Tube sounds like: "Too much heaven" by the Bee Gees


----------



## DecentLevi

Now onto the 2nd set of 6J5 tubes I've been blessed to try on the Ember 2.0:
 
*6J5GT Sylvania (metal ring base) *[dual setup]
 
 ​  

 
dynamics:     9.2/10 hard hitting
bass:            pleasing and extends fairly low
mids:            organic and lush in a superb way
highs:           fatiguing, hard hitting and slightly piercing 
soundstage:   somewhat narrow yet acceptable
  
 
These tubes on the Ember sound punchy, fast, organic with good mids, but bright enough to cause listener's fatigue even with HD 650's, and the soundstage leaves some to be desired. Pleasing yet slightly fatiguing. *Overall: 7/10*
 
*Compared to the tube in post above *(6J5GT RCA branded SELECTRON NOS 1957):
About 15% more treble, 15% punchier, 30% less soundstage, mids slightly lusher. Both have uncanny instrument separation
 
Tube sounds like: "Jump" by Van Halen


----------



## DecentLevi

A few more thoughts on 7193 'Franken Ember' versus 6J5 tubes: From the ones I've tried, it seems they excel at instrument separation, and both myself and another user had found some of them to have an even better soundstage than the 7193; both in a very cohesive way. Additionally, the BUZZZZ that many 7193 owners have reported (myself included) is 100% gone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Moreover, a super eclectic variety of 6J5 tubes abound, whereas there are only 3 types of 7193 tubes, and from the two that I've tried, they both sound very similar. Both types are around $8 each, but a search on eBay shows hundreds of 6J5s are available, probably many dozens of types - this means a big variety of sonic flavors can be had!
  
The 6J5 tubes are cute, sweet, innocent, and have been waiting many decades for somebody just like you to bring them home to poppa!


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> A few more thoughts on 7193 'Franken Ember' versus 6J5 tubes: From the ones I've tried, it seems they excel at instrument separation, and both myself and another user had found some of them to have an even better soundstage than the 7193; both in a very cohesive way. Additionally, the BUZZZZ that many 7193 owners have reported (myself included) is 100% gone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks-glad you are enjoying them and appreciate that well expressed review. Also pleased you managed to rotate that adapter without breaking any of the connections-I damaged the first one I tried. I temporarily went back to using the 6J5 to 6SN7 to 6DJ8 set up while waiting for a replacement, but psychologically, at least, I prefer the simpler set up you are using. The Russian tubes are good as well, and generally cheap. There is a Russian equivalent called a 6S5S which has this huge foil around the plates-dunno what the foil does but it sounds very sweet, with that typical 'OMG' sound stage you describe. I also recently picked up a pair of Hytron's which are very smooth on top, very nice for late night relaxation, even with my K701's!


----------



## DecentLevi

Yup I bet the Ember must be great on the K701 & 712's, as it is with the HD 650's. 
  
 Hey also I noticed that the 6SN7 tubes are able to fit in this adapter I'm using (above) for the 6J5 tubes. So I'm wondering if it's electrically compatible to use 2 of the 6SN7's in this amp?


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Yup I bet the Ember must be great on the K701 & 712's, as it is with the HD 650's.
> 
> Hey also I noticed that the 6SN7 tubes are able to fit in this adapter I'm using (above) for the 6J5 tubes. So I'm wondering if it's electrically compatible to use 2 of the 6SN7's in this amp?


 
 Even my usual staid, though dependable, DT150 is given new life with the 6J5's.
 As to your very interesting idea with the adapter, I've no idea about that  but I personally wouldn't go there until I had discussed with Frans or Jeremy.


----------



## Demo3

Morning DecentLevi... would you say that the 6J5GT Sylvania is more detailed than the 6J5GT RCA, sort of more analytical maybe?  I like a super super amount of detail.  Would you say the 6J5GT Sylvania setup would have more detail than the standard 'Franken Ember' 7193 RCA tube setup.


----------



## amigastar

Hey Guys,
  
 just wanted to buy the Ember II. What do you people recommend more:
 -The Supercharger
 or
 - a nice Tube
  
 dont have the money for two at once.
  
 thx.
  
 Edit: hp are HE-500, is the Supercharger important in my Case?


----------



## Tunkejazz

amigastar said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> just wanted to buy the Ember II. What do you people recommend more:
> -The Supercharger
> ...




The Ember II comes with the supercharger built-in. Get a nice tube  

The Russian 6N6P and 6N23P sound great at a very competitive price, but I would buy them from Jeremy as there are lots of bad quality ones on ebay. The 6SN7 sound nice too


----------



## amigastar

Many Thanks Tunkejazz 
  
 Will look up those tubes.
  
 Edit: how do i buy tubes, theres only a pdf list.


----------



## Tunkejazz

amigastar said:


> Many Thanks Tunkejazz
> 
> Will look up those tubes.
> 
> Edit: how do i buy tubes, theres only a pdf list.



Ah! Don't forget that you need Jeremy's adaptor if you go for the 6SN7. So maybe the Russian tubes will give you the best bang for the buck to get started.


----------



## Tunkejazz

tunkejazz said:


> Ah! Don't forget that you need Jeremy's adaptor if you go for the 6SN7. So maybe the Russian tubes will give you the best bang for the buck to get started.



If you want to buy Ember + tubes you have to write an email to Jeremy. He will send you the paypal bill. He is a very nice guy, you can ask him about tubes 

EDIT: IIRC that list is not complete or updated so I would ask him directly.


----------



## amigastar

Ok will contact Jeremy. Project Ember II ordered 
  
 Edit: and a Russian 6N6P also ordered, I'm happy right now.


----------



## DecentLevi

demo3 said:


> Morning DecentLevi... would you say that the 6J5GT Sylvania is more detailed than the 6J5GT RCA, sort of more analytical maybe?  I like a super super amount of detail.  Would you say the 6J5GT Sylvania setup would have more detail than the standard 'Franken Ember' 7193 RCA tube setup.


 
 Yes I would say the Sylvania 6J5 GT [dual] tubes are moderately more detailed / revealing in the highs than the F.E. setup. However the pair I tested of those also seemed to give a slightly smaller soundstage. The brightest / most detailed sounding tubes I've come across for the Ember is the Zenith 6SN7 GTB [single tube] so you may want to check those out too.
  
 While I've more or less reached my end game with 6J5 tubes _(as for the Ember 2 amp anyway)_ and with 2-3 other bigger amps on the way, I would highly encourage every owner of the Ember to try a 6J5 setup. The tubes are quieter than 7193's with no buzz, very cheap, much more aesthetically pleasing look, and with a staggering variety of brands for different sonic possibilities that can be had. And it doesn't have to be any of the brands we have already reviewed - try a new type and you may be astounded! I would be interested to read your results too.
  
Here is the link for the adapter I got (shown on last page)
Here and here are some links for 6J5 tubes. Don't be afraid to just look...


----------



## amigastar

I'm curious what the Sound Characteristics are of the 6N6P Tubes. Never really heard tubes so it's my first contact.
  
 I got another question:
 Is there an adapter for the electrical connection included? i'm from europe and the ember ships from the usa so i'm not sure if a adapter is included.


----------



## HOWIE13

demo3 said:


> Morning DecentLevi... would you say that the 6J5GT Sylvania is more detailed than the 6J5GT RCA, sort of more analytical maybe?  I like a super super amount of detail.  Would you say the 6J5GT Sylvania setup would have more detail than the standard 'Franken Ember' 7193 RCA tube setup.


 
 In addition to the 6J5's already mentioned, I would add the Russian 6S2S and 6S5S tubes which are equivalent to 6J5's.
 I find them to be detailed and sweet, with a good holographic sound stage. They are also cheap. Pinnacle are a brand worth seeking out in my experience.


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> I'm curious what the Sound Characteristics are of the 6N6P Tubes. Never really heard tubes so it's my first contact.
> 
> I got another question:
> Is there an adapter for the electrical connection included? i'm from europe and the ember ships from the usa so i'm not sure if a adapter is included.


 
 This is an excellent choice of tube to start with as it has all the conventional characteristics associated with the 'tube' sound- warm, sweet and detailed. 
 Jeremy provides the 48V DC power transformer, with its connection lead to the Ember, and I think you supply the standard mains wall socket to transformer lead appropriate for where you live. You best check with Jeremy though.


----------



## amigastar

@HOWIE13
 Excellent Excellent the good news don't stop. Warm, Sweet, detailed exactly what i was looking for honestly.


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> @HOWIE13
> Excellent Excellent the good news don't stop. Warm, Sweet, detailed exactly what i was looking for honestly.


 
 You have made a good choice-the other thing I should mention is that many tubes need several hours, sometimes days, of use to reach their peak of perfection. A new tube can sometimes sound underwhelming, so you may need to 'play it in'.


----------



## amigastar

Thanks, appreciated. i will keep that in mind


----------



## amigastar

Got a Question,
  
 can i remove the tube for tube rolling without taking of the glass? I've seen in a video of the Horizon 3 that he pulls the tube just straight out.


----------



## Mechans1

Could you restate your question.  Tubs can be removed from most sockets with no problems.  The exception is when a tube is soldered in, but that is rare these days.
 If your asking what the technique is- apply upward  tension on the tube while wiggling the tube slightly. 
 If you are asking if  you just take a tube out and expect the amp to work normally  then probably not.  The tube completes the circuit in most cases, again  then the answer in the vast majority tube amplifiers is no.


----------



## Luckbad

amigastar said:


> Got a Question,
> 
> can i remove the tube for tube rolling without taking of the glass? I've seen in a video of the Horizon 3 that he pulls the tube just straight out.




Yes. With the Ember, you don't have to remove the top to remove the tube. That said, it probably takes 20 seconds to remove the top.


----------



## amigastar

mechans1 said:


> Could you restate your question.  Tubs can be removed from most sockets with no problems.  The exception is when a tube is soldered in, but that is rare these days.
> If your asking what the technique is- apply upward  tension on the tube while wiggling the tube slightly.
> If you are asking if  you just take a tube out and expect the amp to work normally  then probably not.  The tube completes the circuit in most cases, again  then the answer in the vast majority tube amplifiers is no.


 
  
 Yes, i asked about the technique (apply upward tension with wiggling which you explained, so everythings fine  )


luckbad said:


> Yes. With the Ember, you don't have to remove the top to remove the tube. That said, it probably takes 20 seconds to remove the top.


 
 good just wanted to know if there are any hidden pins or locks to remove or such.
  
 Thanks again guys thats basically all i wanted to know so far, you've all been really helpful.
  
 Now i all have to do is wait for the amp.


----------



## DecentLevi

Yup, never try to remove a tube by just pulling it straight out, but wiggle it back & forth, or even in a small circular motion which is most recommended from professionals. With the larger tubes, I find it better for the tube to insert/remove it holding the base instead of the glass.
  
 Speaking of tube types, I gotta say, that from all my experience on the Ember - bigger is better! From the two *small tubes* I've used, including the stock and a 6N23P tube, I've always thought the soundstage, clarity & overall refinement were lacking to the point where I'd question whether it's better than the Schiit Magni 1 or not. Moving up to the *6SN7 tubes*, of which I've tried about 30, the soundstage & overall definition seemed to increase by at least 50%, and still have the overall best bass weight & impact. Moving up to the *7193* 'Franken Ember' tubes, everything seemed to improve at least another 20% (minus the impact / bass definition). Finally moving up to the *6J5 tubes*, I've noticed a further improvement in at least 2 areas over the 7193's.
  
 Then for my amusement I just compared the 6J5 [dual setup requiring adapter] to the stock JJ ECC82 tube. Without much exaggeration I would say the difference in sound between these two are like the medieval era to the 21st century. On the 6J5 setup I heard spine tingling energy where the former seemed to have none, soundstage very lifelike and 2-3x better than the former, instrument separation at least 2x better, impact / dynamics also markedly better. I personally have given up on the smaller tubes, and although I have plans for new amps, this setup could very well be an end game for some. I also had a friend compare these two and he also noticed most of the same differences.
  
 Note that individual results may vary depending on the type and condition of the 6J5 tube, as there are a vast variety. BTW I think I'm starting to understand why larger dual tubes are able to produce better soundstage & instrument separation - I think it has something to do with the config. of two tubes with a single triode versus a one tube with dual triodes, and the increased empty space of two tubes versus one smaller one.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Yup, never try to remove a tube by just pulling it straight out, but wiggle it back & forth, or even in a small circular motion which is most recommended from professionals. With the larger tubes, I find it better for the tube to insert/remove it holding the base instead of the glass.
> 
> Speaking of tube types, I gotta say, that from all my experience on the Ember - bigger is better! From the two *small tubes* I've used, including the stock and a 6N23P tube, I've always thought the soundstage, clarity & overall refinement were lacking to the point where I'd question whether it's better than the Schiit Magni 1 or not. Moving up to the *6SN7 tubes*, of which I've tried about 30, the soundstage & overall definition seemed to increase by at least 50%, and still have the overall best bass weight & impact. Moving up to the 7193 'Franken Ember' tubes, everything seemed to improve at least another 20% (minus the impact / bass definition). Finally moving up to the *6J5 tubes*, I've noticed a further improvement in at least 2 areas over the 7193's.
> 
> ...


 
 You have just made me split my sides laughing with your historical allusions. Cheered me up no end on a miserable wet Sunday morning here in Scotland. I also entirely agree with your assessments. I could make a case for some 9 pins, but in my experience only a few, such as 6DJ8 Bugle Boy, can compete with the best of the Octals. Now I'm going to reread your post. Wish I had written it myself. Cheers and Thanks!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 PS. Should add, just finished listening to some complex Baroque with Ember, Visseaux 6J5's and DT990.
 OMG,  Ember can be such a fast amp-Handel on skates!


----------



## connieflyer

>


 
 Hi Howie13, have been following your switching over to the 6j5g tubes with adapter and wondered what brand of 7193 tubes you were using,  I have a couple of well matched Ken-Rad 7193's and they seem to have about the same bass as my Ken-Rad Vt231, which has bass in spades.  I am considering the new adapter, this one....http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6J5G-6C5G-VT-94-CV1932-L63-VR67-TO-ECC88-6922-tube-converter-adapter-/201458214762?hash=item2ee7d8676a:g:j5EAAOSwhcJWM0XX..so I don't need an adapter, have found some Sylvania and Rca tubes but the ones you are using are a bit too steep for me now.  I have some sylvania and rca 7193's and they don't have the bass like the KenRad's, that is why I was wondering if it will make much difference in the Ember, with Senn 650's.  Thanks, Don


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi Don I'll answer some of it for you and leave the rest to Howie. If you're looking for a direct adapter for the 6J5's into the Elise, this would be the one I bought. It's the real deal and good quality, from the same seller as well. Here and here are some links for 6J5 tubes, many starting around $8. There are a lot of different possible sounds to be had with the big variety of these tubes, and I would also be interested in reading your impressions.


----------



## HOWIE13

Hi Don
 Thanks for asking.
 I think the adapter you are linking to and the one DecentLevi is using are probably the same. It's the same seller and the ECC88 and 6CG7 pin outs are I think the same.  I am actually using the same one as DecentLevi.
 I didn't know Sylvania did a 7193, that's interesting. I must look out for those.
 I've only tried the Ken Rad and RCA 7193's. I find the RCA's a little warmer and smoother than the Ken Rads, which are more dynamic. The Ken Rads separate out the frequencies better, but sometimes, especially with my AKG's, can over do the treble a bit. Overall, the Ken Rad 7193's are very good and an improvement to my ears over most 6SN7's, but the 6J5 sound is quite different-cleaner, less depth of bass but a lot of bass impact, dynamics and clarity -and in a big, holographic sound stage. DecentLevi's helpful links will point you to some quite cheap deals. In my experience even the cheap 6J5's will give you their flavour. I mainly listen to Classical so I often need a well focused bass, sweet, detailed treble with well projected, dynamic mids, and the 6J5's give me all that.
 Ultimately, though, if you go for lots of deep bass you may be better with your 7193 and 6SN7 V231 Ken Rad's. You could also try a Sylvania 6SN7 'Bad Boy'. He sounds very good with the HD650.


----------



## Demo3

I just ordered a set of these because they look kind of cool and they were inexpensive.  It will be a while before I can give them a listen because I am still waiting on the adapter.


----------



## connieflyer

Well, did not want to miss out so I just purchased these.   1pc Dual 6J5G 6C5G VT-94 CV1932 L63 VR67 TO 6CG7 6FQ7 tube converter adapter,  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  ,and 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so will let you know how they compare to 7193's.  Have been looking at the 7n7's as well, think I will wait on those.
  
  
 Thanks Howie13 and decentlevi for the info.


----------



## Demo3

I think we might start driving the price of 6J5 tubes up... bummer.


----------



## connieflyer

Get em while they got em


----------



## HOWIE13

Hope you guys enjoy the new experience. There are loads to chose from- I don't think many people have used them since the 1960's. It's amazing that they seem very reliable too, from my experience. 
 It struck me too that we may be driving the prices up before too long.


----------



## Tunkejazz

HOWIE13, DecentLevi how does the RCA pair compare to the Visseaux?


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> @HOWIE13, @DecentLevi how does the RCA pair compare to the Visseaux?


 
 I find RCA warmer, more 'tube like' for want of a better description. Good, quite deep bass. Visseaux more dynamic, better imaging and more punchy sound. Both have excellent sound stages and are very engaging to my ears. Please bear in mind though that there may be different versions of these tubes we don't know about. We are very much in unchartered waters given how little is recorded about them in modern audio equipment. It's very experimental.


----------



## Tunkejazz

...maybe another month... I am fried after I ordered a Polaris for home


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> ...maybe another month... I am fried after I ordered a Polaris for home


 
 The RCA 6J5's in Ember are close to the Polaris, using high gain, low output impedance, and medium bandwidth, I would say.


----------



## Mechans1

I always mess up selective quotation from a previous post.
 I  agree that for reasons unknown , that the Ken Rad 6SN7 and good examples of the Sylvania 6SN7s GTs do an outstanding job with musical bass  reproduction. (note I don't listen to sound effect and house shaking bass) I wonder what it is that is in these tubes and their circuits that makes their bass so obvious.  I don't think it is reduction of treble or recessed mid range. Those areas are especially good with the better Sylvanias.
 I will let any novice reading this in on a secret.  Yes the Sylvania 6SN7  GTs, Ws, As, VT-231s, Bad Boys, and WGTs are all very special tubes with commensurate prices.  Here is the little secret, IMO YMMV etc  you can get a pretty good feel  for the Sylvania bass sound quality, if you try the Sylvania  GTB tubes with Green Lettering.  They shouldn't cost very much , strenuously avoid and manufacturer's "coin base" tubes. There are just too many decent inexpensive old 6SN7s in decent enough shape to try.
 Current production  of 6SN7s is improving but still have a way to go IMHO.  I have to admit however that I have not listened to  some of the  yet.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well for bass quality with 6SN7's, I'ver personally found the GE GTA (silver triodes and metallic circle painted onto one side of the glass) to edge over the Sylvania green letter tubes (WGT and WGTA) with brown base, of which Sylnvania's also seem to add a huge amount of lushness and alter the tonality slightly. I'm using that GE in the Ember as a tube-buffer (preamp) for my electrostatic rig, and it's really filling in the void with it's bass definition, tube saturation and smooth treble.
  
 Folks when you get your 6J5 adapters, remember you need to use a screwdriver to loosen the screw in the middle then rotate it just 1/4th to make it fit around the capacitors in the Ember. I turned mine counter-clockwise and it didn't break, as happened with another user.


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks for reminding us Decentlevi about the turn counter clockwise, I don''t remember which way I turned the 7193's, just oriented them front to back now, no problems with wires.


----------



## HOWIE13

Yep-I broke my first adapter turning it.
 Since then I've loosened the bottom screw in the 9 pin bit and slowly turn in a way that looks as though it won't stretch the wires-I can't recall which way that was though. I've done it twice now with no problem. The first time I loosened the top screw and didn't look at what I was doing to the wires-stupid really.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Well for bass quality with 6SN7's, I'ver personally found the GE GTA (silver triodes and metallic circle painted onto one side of the glass) to edge over the Sylvania green letter tubes (WGT and WGTA) with brown base, of which Sylnvania's also seem to add a huge amount of lushness and alter the tonality slightly. I'm using that GE in the Ember as a tube-buffer (preamp) for my electrostatic rig, and it's really filling in the void with it's bass definition, tube saturation and smooth treble.
> 
> Folks when you get your 6J5 adapters, remember you need to use a screwdriver to loosen the screw in the middle then rotate it just 1/4th to make it fit around the capacitors in the Ember. I turned mine counter-clockwise and it didn't break, as happened with another user.


 
 Hi DecentLevi
 Is this the tube you mean?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-6SN7GTA-Hickok-Tested-at-2600-2600-2600-Vacuum-Tube/191720233466?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D34314%26meid%3Da1d2e1ff7a8049998724cd76243c551b%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D161879150203&rt=nc


----------



## HOWIE13

mechans1 said:


>


 
 Hi Mechans1
 I've tried the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB and was impressed at how well they sounded, especially for their price.
 Is this the Sylvania you mean?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7GTB-Sylvania-NOS-Black-Plates-Halo-Getter-Vacuum-Tube-Tested/272029355615?_trksid=p2322090.c100391.m3853&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D31356%26meid%3D10c68f63270141d386a056b86a7b7290%26pid%3D100391%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D19%26


----------



## DecentLevi

@HOWIE13 yes you fount it! Hurry and get that GTA B4 it's gone. seriously


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> @HOWIE13 yes you fount it! Hurry and get that GTA B4 it's gone. seriously


 
 Thanks for your help and advice. Sourced an identical pair from another dealer, should be just below threshhold for paying import duties.


----------



## Mechans1

howie13 said:


> Hi Mechans1
> I've tried the Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB and was impressed at how well they sounded, especially for their price.
> Is this the Sylvania you mean?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6SN7GTB-Sylvania-NOS-Black-Plates-Halo-Getter-Vacuum-Tube-Tested/272029355615?_trksid=p2322090.c100391.m3853&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D31356%26meid%3D10c68f63270141d386a056b86a7b7290%26pid%3D100391%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D19%26


 

 No this is the one I don't think is as good as the green lettered tube.  The tube shown has yellow lettering more often than not and a more narrow base than the one I suggest you try.  They are early GTBs and used to be abundant is really good condition for reasonable money.  They have a certain richness and "big tone" sound.   I don't think they are better than the most sought after Sylvanias, like the original  GT chrome dome,  Ws , Bottom getter GT 231s, and 3 rivet bad boys etc.  but they are good tubes.  You can find the legendary W construction/internals i.e. with abundant flashing (chrome), 3 rivet plates,top halo getter, in the early GTAs . You can frequently pick them up in lots with other tubes and by themselves  (used of course) for very little money. I think I have some but my photo skills are lacking.  I will try to show you what they are but I hope you can tell from the description.
 Good luck,  and be careful tube hunting is addictive.


----------



## HOWIE13

@Mechans1 
Thanks for the detailed description. Will look out for those. I already have the addiction, as my wife constantly reminds me!
 Cheers


----------



## Mechans1

You know I started to look through a couple of boxes of my 6SN7s. Found some  Sylvania GTBs, but none were as I thought they were.  (MEA CULPA !!  = MY BAD).   I found the  two pairs of tube you showed me with green print same base and font.  There were a couple of yellow print examples as well.  I bought a lot of Sylvania early  in my collecting,
 I still use the Ws  and GTs of various design. I have all the Ws I need for now with a few exceptions.  It seems like a good time to buy the short bottle Ws, I have never seen lower prices.  It is not the most desirable of the Ws mainly due to the relatively abundant supply.  They  sound great but the tall bottled metal base W is the top dog, no question about that, they are also comparatively scarce.
 All that said, the best deal is to keep your eyes out for GTAs with 3 rivet plates as I said before.  More often than not you pay used GTA prices = low for a tube that is essentially a W.
 Feel Free to PM if permitted.


----------



## HOWIE13

Thanks Mechans1. I appreciate your expertise with these tubes. Will let you know if I see anything promising I'm thinking of buying.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I just ordered the relic 6J5G Visseaux bottle shaped tubes (even though I don't need it) by the high recommendation of Howie. This was a triple digit bill from the UK so if it's not as good as you say then you're gonna owe me! (jokin' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )
  
 How do you know if you're a *Head-Fi'er / addict*? When you did what I just did. ^
  
 What's the difference between those two words? (trick question!)
  
  
Also guys I'm wondering if anyone else can shed some light on this: You know that dual 6J5 to 6DJ8 _(it does by many names)_ adapter some of us have gotten recently? Well as mentioned, 6SN7 tubes do actually fit perfectly in it.


----------



## HOWIE13

That diagram's too complicated for me, but as far as the Visseaux go, I hope you like their sound, but even if you don't you will love their glow.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 TIP:Be sure to give those new Visseaux several hours of burn in.


----------



## DecentLevi

UPDATE on last post. Jeremy did just respond, saying

_Per the pinout, this will not work for 6sn7 tubes. It would be wrong. A quick example, it has heater going to pin 2 & 8. for a 6sn7, it is at 7&8. Also dual 6sn7s would present to high of current draw at 1200mA. Ember can do this but at risk to the heater circuit which I rate for 1A._
  
 So anybody else,* DON'T TRY DUAL 6SN7's*


----------



## Solrighal

I would think about taking that schematic diagram down or putting a huge warning at the top of it's post.


----------



## amigastar

Tomorrow i get the Ember, i keep my expectations low and hope for the best.


----------



## connieflyer

No reason to have low expectations, the Ember is a very good amp.  Give it a little time on the stock tube and then see if you want to roll some.


----------



## amigastar

My very first Tube Amp, i would lie if i would say i'm not excited.


----------



## Demo3

I searched through this thread for some impressions of pairing the Ember with the HD800 and could not find much.  Anyone want to share just a quick thought  on the matchup.  I use it with my HD650 but was looking for something with more detail.


----------



## Mechans1

I have been using a Raytheon Windmill getter  5751 which makes for excellent sound quality.  I know some may argue that the 5751 which can be used as a lower gain 12AX7 still has too much gain  (5751 gain of 70 vs 100 for the AX7) which results in a greater  potential for noise than many other double triodes.  I have not heard any untoward noise with this roll and recommend it, if-a big if- you have already have this special 5751 or access to one to try.  As a rule the Raytheon Windmill 5751 are expensive, somewhat rare and collectable.  Picking up a good one for a low price is unlikely 'by accident'  but I guess there is no harm trying to find a one.


----------



## skyline315

demo3 said:


> I searched through this thread for some impressions of pairing the Ember with the HD800 and could not find much.  Anyone want to share just a quick thought  on the matchup.  I use it with my HD650 but was looking for something with more detail.


 
  
 It's a good pairing.
  
 It won't soften up the 800s or transform them into something smooth and sweet.  And, if you're an HD800 fan, then this is a good thing.  Their character is is still intact.
  
 Some have reported a little treble etch, but not everyone can hear it.  I can't, so I have no real input on that one.


----------



## DavidA

demo3 said:


> I searched through this thread for some impressions of pairing the Ember with the HD800 and could not find much.  Anyone want to share just a quick thought  on the matchup.  I use it with my HD650 but was looking for something with more detail.


 
 It will work quite well depending on the tube in use but for me the BH Crack is a better pairing with the HD-600/650/800.  The sound has more dynamics, highs are smoother and bass goes lower and seems more full to me.  The differences are not glaring and easy to notice with some songs but on others its noticeable.


----------



## amigastar

Ok, so got my Ember today, and from first 5 min listen i can already confirm more clean and balanced sound with the stock tube compared to Matrix M-Stage.
 I like what i hear.
 but can somebody tell me the order of powering on? i plugged in the desktop computer power cable into the transformer then into the ember and there was a little spark when i plugged it in the ember on the back.
  
 Edit: funny i now hear the little crackles and sizzles on the Madlib Medicine Show 8 Advanced Jazz. better microdetails  i would say.
  
 the tube gets very hot is ths normal or did i damage something through the spark described above?


----------



## Astral Abyss

amigastar said:


> the tube gets very hot is ths normal or did i damage something through the spark described above?


 
  
  
 Tubes get hot.  They get very, very hot.  It's normal.


----------



## Demo3

davida said:


> It will work quite well depending on the tube in use but for me the BH Crack is a better pairing with the HD-600/650/800.  The sound has more dynamics, highs are smoother and bass goes lower and seems more full to me.  The differences are not glaring and easy to notice with some songs but on others its noticeable.


 
  


skyline315 said:


> It's a good pairing.
> 
> It won't soften up the 800s or transform them into something smooth and sweet.  And, if you're an HD800 fan, then this is a good thing.  Their character is is still intact.
> 
> Some have reported a little treble etch, but not everyone can hear it.  I can't, so I have no real input on that one.


 
 Thanks for your input guys.... Sense that post I remembered how much I liked the Ether C at the RMAF so that is what I am thinking of getting to go with my Ember.
  
  


amigastar said:


> Ok, so got my Ember today, and from first 5 min listen i can already confirm more clean and balanced sound with the stock tube compared to Matrix M-Stage.
> I like what i hear.
> but can somebody tell me the order of powering on? i plugged in the desktop computer power cable into the transformer then into the ember and there was a little spark when i plugged it in the ember on the back.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I don't think you have to worry about "breaking" anything buy the order you power up.  In general I prefer to have the power brick plugged into the Ember with the Ember turned off, then plug into the power, then turn the power on, on the Ember.  That should eliminate the spark at the brick>Ember connection.
 I have found that tube temperature can vary greatly depending on the tube, from to hot to touch to cool.  I have never gotten burned but I have had to wait until the tube cools before I can remove them comfortably.


----------



## HOWIE13

Lots of my kit sparks when I connect/disconnect the DC power cable. I looked it up a while back and concluded it's not a fault and does not cause any damage to anything. There is a reason for it but just now I can't remember what it is.


----------



## Demo3

My new rig...


----------



## HOWIE13

@Demo3
 Nice photos.
 Those tubes look very similar to some nice warm Hytron 6C5's I enjoy. I wonder if Hytron made tubes for Delco, or visa versa. I am finding more and more that the history of these vintage tubes fascinates me almost as much as my enjoyment of listening with them.


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> Lots of my kit sparks when I connect/disconnect the DC power cable. I looked it up a while back and concluded it's not a fault and does not cause any damage to anything. There is a reason for it but just now I can't remember what it is.


 
  
 Hmm..


----------



## amigastar

One question, the loudness is a little to weak for my HE-500, do i have to set the jumpers like i outlined it on this pic in blue? sorry for my noob questions.


----------



## Demo3

amigastar said:


> One question, the loudness is a little to weak for my HE-500, do i have to set the jumpers like i outlined it on this pic in blue? sorry for my noob questions.


 
 You are looking at the bottom of page 13 of the instructions.  At the top of that page there instructions about INPUT ATTENUATION.  Try moving them to the other position.  This amp is very "adjustable" so do not be afraid to move jumpers especially if you reference the instructions.  Keep in mind that one side is the right channel the other the left so do the same to both sides.  AND remember to do all adjustments with the power off and preferably with the hp disconnected.


----------



## amigastar

So as far as i understand jumper on low gives me louder sound (layman speaking). for now i leaeve the input attenuation as it is.
 I'm usually not a big noob when it comes to PC's but this tube world is pretty new for me, so thanks to all for the help.


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> One question, the loudness is a little to weak for my HE-500, do i have to set the jumpers like i outlined it on this pic in blue? sorry for my noob questions.


 
 As Demo3 suggests, you need to bypass the input attenuation module by moving the jumpers at the top right of the amp, just in front of the RCA input connectors, and, in addition, have the output impedance jumpers at the front of the amp, on either side, on the low setting.


----------



## amigastar

I have the output resistance jumper on low and the attenuation untouched for now.
  
 Did i mention that it sounds great, clean and clear? 
  
 Listened to the amp for 6 hours today and no fatigue at all.


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> I have the output resistance jumper on low and the attenuation untouched for now.


 
 If by 'untouched' you mean the way it was when you received the amp the input attenuation module will probably be 'in line'  (as mine was) and that will reduce the loudness of your cans. So if you want louder sound move the input module jumpers to bypass the attenuation module, but lower the vol pot first as it may go quite a bit louder.


----------



## amigastar

howie13 said:


> If by 'untouched' you mean the way it was when you received the amp the input attenuation module will probably be 'in line'  (as mine was) and that will reduce the loudness of your cans. So if you want louder sound move the input module jumpers to bypass the attenuation module, but lower the vol pot first as it may go quite a bit louder.


 
 Ok but i have the jumper on the left and right side of the amp on low and the loudness is just right, so i suppose i don't i have to set the attenuation module on bypass neccessary, right (yes with untouched i meant the state how i got it).


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> Ok but i have the jumper on the left and right side of the amp on low and the loudness is just right, so i suppose i don't i have to set the attenuation module on bypass neccessary, right (yes with untouched i meant the state how i got it)?


 
 That's correct-if you are now happy with the volume and it sounds good. The lower input gain setting you have at present will give you more play with the vol pot too.


----------



## HOWIE13

I should have added that some people prefer the sound with the input module bypassed, even though it reduces the play of the vol pot. Have fun experimenting.


----------



## Solrighal

Don't forget you can bypass the input capacitors too. That gives a tad more air to the sound from my HD 650's but at the expense of some scratchiness on the volume pot depending on the tube I'm using. A small price to pay though.


----------



## amigastar

Hey Guys it's me again.
  
 just one question today, i want to change the tube, now i've heard that you have to wiggle it out. do i need to touch the tube at the bottom or whats the best way to do this?
  
 Edit:  nvm people already changed it, sounds good. not as warm as stock tube but i've listened to the new tube for not even 5 minutes so yeah.
  
 my dad would love to buy a tube amp also after listening to the ember, he has my old Audinst Hud-Mx 1 which was my first dac.


----------



## connieflyer

Howie, am using 2 National Union 6L5G tubes now, and I like these better than the Sylvania 6j5G's.  Might pick up a pair of 6C5 G's only difference is heater current, 300 ma for 6c5's 150 ma for 6L5g's.  Looking at the metal cans as well, but I like the look of the G's.  Might want to look at the 6l5's, very nice, smoother and larger stage than 6j5's IMHO.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Howie, am using 2 National Union 6L5G tubes now, and I like these better than the Sylvania 6j5G's.  Might pick up a pair of 6C5 G's only difference is heater current, 300 ma for 6c5's 150 ma for 6L5g's.  Looking at the metal cans as well, but I like the look of the G's.  Might want to look at the 6l5's, very nice, smoother and larger stage than 6j5's IMHO.


 
 Glad you are having fun like me experimenting with these single triode octals. The smoothest I have heard so far are Hytron 6C5's. You may like their smooth sound too.
 Those 6L5's sound fascinating- I had never heard of those before, thanks for pointing them out -will need to try and buy a pair.
 As far as metal 6J5's are concerned there are loads on the market and very cheap. I bought a couple of KR's yesterday. If they are any good I may paint them to make them look more attractive.
 EDIT: Just bought a pair of National Union 6L5's


----------



## connieflyer

Hard to find the 6l5's am going to let the 6j5's cook for a few hours this afternoon and see how they sound.  Have to find some  Hytron 6C5's and give them a try.  Maybe black friday? Probably not on Ebay.  Let me know what you think of the 6l5's be nice to compare your opinion against Hytron's.  Had to use a socket extenstion, to mount adapter, should have gone with my original plan to get one with 6sn7 base to use with Jeremy's adapter.  Wires too short to rotate front to back, got side to side but caps in the way.  Tube adapter not stable in extender, with 6sn7 and Jeremy's adapter would be about 1/2inch closer to chasis.   All the best.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Hard to find the 6l5's am going to let the 6j5's cook for a few hours this afternoon and see how they sound.  Have to find some  Hytron 6C5's and give them a try.  Maybe black friday? Probably not on Ebay.  Let me know what you think of the 6l5's be nice to compare your opinion against Hytron's.  Had to use a socket extenstion, to mount adapter, should have gone with my original plan to get one with 6sn7 base to use with Jeremy's adapter.  Wires too short to rotate front to back, got side to side but caps in the way.  Tube adapter not stable in extender, with 6sn7 and Jeremy's adapter would be about 1/2inch closer to chasis.   All the best.


 
 Sure thing. The 6L5's will probably take about 10 days to reach me from the States. I just read there is a 6P5 as well but those are not readily found in pairs. One thing at a time I suppose. Cheers.


----------



## connieflyer

For awhile I thought I was done tube rollling, but finding out there are so many more combinations that will work with this amp.  Hope you enjoy the 6l5's.  The Hytron's you have are they the G or GT model?


----------



## connieflyer

Helpful (maybe) page of tube data sheets
  
http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets62.html


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> For awhile I thought I was done tube rollling, but finding out there are so many more combinations that will work with this amp.  Hope you enjoy the 6l5's.  The Hytron's you have are they the G or GT model?


 
 Couldn't agree more. It's so easy to roll with the Ember. 
 I will have to examine the Hytrons to see whether they are G or GT but unfortunately I'm on holiday in Spain just now. I get back next Thursday and will check what's printed on them then. I did look up the details through my 'previous purchases' pages with eBay but it just says G/GT so that doesn't help any.
 The seller is not listing any more, either.


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> Couldn't agree more. It's so easy to roll with the Ember.
> I will have to examine the Hytrons to see whether they are G or GT but *unfortunately* I'm on holiday in Spain just now. I get back next Thursday and will check what's printed on them then. I did look up the details through my 'previous purchases' pages with eBay but it just says G/GT so that doesn't help any.
> The seller is not listing any more, either.


 
  
 I hear you, on my way too.


----------



## connieflyer

From what I have read the G or glass refers to the coke bottle shape and the GT or glass tube refers to the straight sided tubes.  Enjoy Spain, ( a little envy inserted here)


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> I hear you, on my way too.


 
 Bet you can't wait.


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> Bet you can't wait.


 
  
 It's not without some trepidation but yes, absolutely. Carpe Diem!


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> From what I have read the G or glass refers to the coke bottle shape and the GT or glass tube refers to the straight sided tubes.  Enjoy Spain, ( a little envy inserted here)


 
 Thanks.
 It's great here as it's so sunny just now,  but there are still times when my ears get a bit restless


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> Thanks.
> It's great here as it's so sunny just now,  but there are still times when my ears get a bit restless


 
  
 Where are you? Roughly speaking..


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> From what I have read the G or glass refers to the coke bottle shape and the GT or glass tube refers to the straight sided tubes.  Enjoy Spain, ( a little envy inserted here)


 
 They are straight sided. But maybe I best check anyway what's printed on them.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Where are you? Roughly speaking..


 
 Near Mijas, not far from Malaga. Lovely. Can't wait to return to our Scottish winter.
 .


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Helpful (maybe) page of tube data sheets
> 
> http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets62.html


 
 That's a mind boggling website. Should be very helpful.


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> Near Mijas, not far from Malaga. Lovely. Can't wait to return to our Scottish winter.
> .


 
  
 I know that area, not too bad. We've got 4 months in Andalusia to look forward to.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> I know that area, not too bad. We've got 4 months in Andalusia to look forward to.


 
 So fortunate-I love the Spanish life-style- it's no wonder I read today they have the best life expectancy in Europe. Where will you be staying in Andalusia?


----------



## Solrighal

howie13 said:


> So fortunate-I love the Spanish life-style- it's no wonder I read today they have the best life expectancy in Europe. Where will you be staying in Andalusia?


 
  
 We've got a house there in a place called Bedar. It's not much but it's our bolt-hole.


----------



## CZ4A

Sorry to barge in on the Ember thread but the Sunrise thread is dead. 

I've been experimenting with 6C8G and 6F8G tubes in my Sunrise III. I'm using a eBay 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter. I am getting a very annoying buzz in the left channel from all of my 6C8G/6F8G tubes. I've read these types of tubes can be microphonic but for all of them to act like this is suspicious. The one common factor is the the adapter. I might try to make my own 6F8G to 6SN7 adapter but in the meantime does anyone have any other suggestions as to what may be causing the buzzing? You can check out my original post here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/641936/project-sunrise-ps2-tube-rolling-thread-and-maybe-even-project-horizon-and-project-ember/375#post_12107727


----------



## DecentLevi

@CZ4A, here was my posting on solutions a few months back when I used the 7193 tubes:
  


decentlevi said:


> @Demo3 you're in luck, I have several solutions to reduce the buzzing sound.
> 
> 
> The first most likely culprit is the tube itself. Both of my RCA 7193's were buzzing too much to handle, so I ordered another pair and after a bit of swapping I found a combination of one older and one newer tube reduced the buzz substantially. For some odd reason I've only heard a buzzing sound on about 1 of 13 6SN7 tubes, but heard it on all 3 of 3 7193 tubes - probably has something to do with the dual connection, but anyway the first solution is to try ordering a 2nd pair then see which combination of 2 tubes is quieter.
> ...


----------



## amigastar

Is there a recommmended runtime for tubes since they get so hot. i have it turned on for some hours to burn in (basically the whole night)
 should i make a pause after some hours?


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> We've got a house there in a place called Bedar. It's not much but it's our bolt-hole.


 
  You are in the real Spain. Here it's pretty touristy-though nice and quiet at this time of year.
  
  VIVA ANDALUCIA


----------



## HOWIE13

cz4a said:


> Sorry to barge in on the Ember thread but the Sunrise thread is dead.
> 
> I've been experimenting with 6C8G and 6F8G tubes in my Sunrise III. I'm using a eBay 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter. I am getting a very annoying buzz in the left channel from all of my 6C8G/6F8G tubes. I've read these types of tubes can be microphonic but for all of them to act like this is suspicious. The one common factor is the the adapter. I might try to make my own 6F8G to 6SN7 adapter but in the meantime does anyone have any other suggestions as to what may be causing the buzzing? You can check out my original post here:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/641936/project-sunrise-ps2-tube-rolling-thread-and-maybe-even-project-horizon-and-project-ember/375#post_12107727


 
 Hi CZ4A
 Your Sunrise looks really cool with those tubes.
 I had also read the 6C8G types tended to microphony but your buzz sounds more like an earth problem. Also, I think I read that tubes like these, with wires attached to the top, including 7193's, are prone to picking up noise because they can act like aerials.
 Having said that, most people here who use them seem very pleased with Franken-Ember (including myself, where I have also used 7193's to good effect, without insurmountable hum problems, with the Horizon and Starlight too)
 What DecentLevi has suggested is very helpful though, unfortunately, I don't personally know anything special about power supplies, except in the UK it's important to check that any 3 pin wall plug has a proper metal earth pin, some are plastic.
 If you can't get rid of the hum one other option to consider might be for you to try a 6C8G to 6DJ8/ECC88 adapter. Switching to a 6V adapter on one of my amps worked for me way back, though I can't remember any specific details or why it should have worked. Can't think of anything else just now, except to check Solderdude's most helpful posts about solving earthing problems as well.
 When I've saved up some money after my recent frenetic 6J5 spending spree I could be tempted to try 6C8G's.


----------



## Solrighal

amigastar said:


> Is there a recommmended runtime for tubes since they get so hot. i have it turned on for some hours to burn in (basically the whole night)
> should i make a pause after some hours?


 
  
 Unless the tube is brand new they don't need anything more than brought up to operating temperature before listening. Five minutes will do the trick. Leave it on all night if you want though but tubes do have a finite lifespan.
  


howie13 said:


> You are in the real Spain. Here it's pretty touristy-though nice and quiet at this time of year.
> 
> VIVA ANDALUCIA


 
  
 Yeah, I know what you mean. We searched long & hard to find an area that wasn't inundated with Brits. I'm also not a big fan of the beach lifestyle so up in the mountains suits us fine.


----------



## Tunkejazz

solrighal said:


> Unless the tube is brand new they don't need anything more than brought up to operating temperature before listening. Five minutes will do the trick. Leave it on all night if you want though but tubes do have a finite lifespan.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I know what you mean. We searched long & hard to find an area that wasn't inundated with Brits. I'm also not a big fan of the beach lifestyle so up in the mountains suits us fine.




You should visit Ronda then!


----------



## DavidA

solrighal said:


> Yeah, I know what you mean. We searched long & hard to find an area that wasn't inundated with Brits. I'm also not a big fan of the beach lifestyle so up in the mountains suits us fine.


 
 Guess you will not be visiting Hawaii any time soon
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I just finished moving and I live about 200 yards from the beginning of Waikiki, Ala Moana beach is visible from my lanai and kitchen window.  But if you are ever in Hawaii let me know.
  
 PS: I'm going to get a second Ember for my son, he has really started to get into headphones (HE-560, K7XX, one of my SennGrados and HD-650), he's still in college so keeping things portable/compact is important.
  
 PPS: I got the SR-009 and SRM-007 that my friend gave to me, I don't need anymore headphones, but I need to send the SRM-007 back to him for service, slight channel imbalance.


----------



## HOWIE13

solrighal said:


> Unless the tube is brand new they don't need anything more than brought up to operating temperature before listening. Five minutes will do the trick. Leave it on all night if you want though but tubes do have a finite lifespan.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I know what you mean. We searched long & hard to find an area that wasn't inundated with Brits. I'm also not a big fan of the beach lifestyle so up in the mountains suits us fine.


 
 Yep we are in the mountains too-well away from the Brit lager louts who fortunately prefer the beaches.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> You should visit Ronda then!


 
 We are not that far from Ronda-love it there, but the wife gets dizzy looking down into the gorge


----------



## Solrighal

Ronda is gorgeous eh? We camped there about 10 years ago in a Swiss-owned camp site. Lights out by 22:00hrs and NO NOISE. I fell in their ornamental pond late one night on the way to the bathroom.


----------



## HOWIE13

Off to a local finca for tapas now-catch up with you all later


----------



## CZ4A

decentlevi said:


> @CZ4A, here was my posting on solutions a few months back when I used the 7193 tubes:


 
  
    
 Quote:


howie13 said:


> Hi CZ4A
> Your Sunrise looks really cool with those tubes.
> I had also read the 6C8G types tended to microphony but your buzz sounds more like an earth problem. Also, I think I read that tubes like these, with wires attached to the top, including 7193's, are prone to picking up noise because they can act like aerials.
> Having said that, most people here who use them seem very pleased with Franken-Ember (including myself, where I have also used 7193's to good effect, without insurmountable hum problems, with the Horizon and Starlight too)
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the advice, DecentLevi and HOWIE13. It does look cool, and the 6C8G/6F8Gs sound great (when the volume is louder than the buzzing!).
  
 It's seeming like a grounding/earthing problem the more I experiment with it. A tube damper above the bottle shoulder does nothing to fix the problem, nor did wrapping the copper base in electrical tape. There is a different-sounding hum on the K-R 6C8G if I hover my hand close to the tube, but it is closer to a hum like I would hear from one of my other microphonic tubes, and has no effect on the buzz. When you mentioned the 6F8G to 6DJ8 converter, it makes me wonder if there is some sort of cross-talk going on within the 12AU7 adapter that the 6DJ8 doesn't have because of the pin outs. I'll certainly give the cap-to-earth wire a try when I have a chance.


----------



## sneaky415

Try a copper wire between the top cap wire and one of the rca inputs.
  



cz4a said:


> Thanks for the advice, DecentLevi and HOWIE13. It does look cool, and the 6C8G/6F8Gs sound great (when the volume is louder than the buzzing!).
> 
> It's seeming like a grounding/earthing problem the more I experiment with it. A tube damper above the bottle shoulder does nothing to fix the problem, nor did wrapping the copper base in electrical tape. There is a different-sounding hum on the K-R 6C8G if I hover my hand close to the tube, but it is closer to a hum like I would hear from one of my other microphonic tubes, and has no effect on the buzz. When you mentioned the 6F8G to 6DJ8 converter, it makes me wonder if there is some sort of cross-talk going on within the 12AU7 adapter that the 6DJ8 doesn't have because of the pin outs. I'll certainly give the cap-to-earth wire a try when I have a chance.


----------



## amigastar

Ok so changed the Input gain jumpers, don't know if there was some difference besides loudness but  it sounds damn good. I think i leave it at that.
 If anybody played also around with gain what differences you observed?


----------



## Solrighal

Some say using high gain makes the sound more immediate & powerful. I think that's just placebo. Low gain works fine with my HD 650 and keeps the volume pot in the sweet spot.


----------



## Demo3

cz4a said:


> Thanks for the advice, DecentLevi and HOWIE13. It does look cool, and the 6C8G/6F8Gs sound great (when the volume is louder than the buzzing!).
> 
> It's seeming like a grounding/earthing problem the more I experiment with it. A tube damper above the bottle shoulder does nothing to fix the problem, nor did wrapping the copper base in electrical tape. There is a different-sounding hum on the K-R 6C8G if I hover my hand close to the tube, but it is closer to a hum like I would hear from one of my other microphonic tubes, and has no effect on the buzz. When you mentioned the 6F8G to 6DJ8 converter, it makes me wonder if there is some sort of cross-talk going on within the 12AU7 adapter that the 6DJ8 doesn't have because of the pin outs. I'll certainly give the cap-to-earth wire a try when I have a chance.


 
 I run a grounding wire from just behind the volume pot, screwed it tight with the nut that was already on it, to most any unpainted metal surface in my environment.  Like a metal cabinet or my metal desk.  I have had very good success using a metal face plate on an electrical outlet but I made sure it was wired and grounded properly.  Don't need any shock treatment!


----------



## CZ4A

I gave Sneaky and Levi's suggestions on grounding a try. Grounding the grid cap to the chassis (like the RCA jack) worked too well- it killed all sound in the left channel. However, running a ground wire from a capacitor to a baseboard heater shield reduced the buzzing a lot. There is still some faint buzzing but at least I no longer feel like I've pressed my left ear to a beehive!


----------



## DecentLevi

​  
  
 Hi folks, sum tubular newz 4 U 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 So thanks to Howie's advice I got a pair of *Visseaux 6J5* tubes. And I'd say the sound is spot on for how he described it!
  
 Straight away I was blown away by how these tubes FAR surpass every other tube I've tried - two pairs 'straight' 6J5, two types of 7193, dozens of 6SN7s and a few 6DJ8 size - it really puts these all to shame, and I have a hard time imagining any other tube being able to push this little amp any further. This cow has been milked dry, my friends, until there would appear to be nothing left - and I mean that in a good way!
  
 What attributes do you get in the Visseaux dual 6J5s?
 - slamming bass! Impactful, weighty thunderous bass (not too much quantity, but good quality / definition)
 - smooth audiophile grade treble
 - lush / sweet mids thru highs
 - holographic soundstage
  
 The soundstage is without a doubt the biggest I've gotten out of any tubes before. To be honest It's almost always enjoyable but on the extremely rare moment it may seem so big that the sounds aren't completely cohesive (mainly on lossy experimental recordings I'd say). Overall this is leagues above all other tubes I've tried, and a must have.
  
 Oh also Howie I must apologise for recommending the GE 6SN7 GTA tube - while this is prob. the best 6SN7 tube I've tried with the best bass definition, the setup above is at least 2x better.
  
 On a bit of a low note however at least one of these have a hum, which was barely fixed with a grounding wire. This is completely dependant on the tube, and is nothing specific to this type of tube - more of a random fluke; and the seller can probably help exchange that.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> ​
> 
> Hi folks, sum tubular newz 4 U
> 
> ...


 
 So glad you like them, the Seller is very good too. I'm actually saving up to buy a couple of spares of those Visseaux in the New Year as they won't be around forever. I've had some readily manageable hum with one or two 6J5's, but not with the Visseaux.
 When I'm not sure which tube will suit best I just reach for those Visseaux and they have never let me down. 
 I've been trying out the DT 990 Pro (250Ohm) cans and what strikes me is how good the detail with these cans, the Visseaux and Garage amps is at very low volumes-like detail seems unchanged as the volume gets less and less, as if you are just slowly walking further and further away from a live sound source. Uncanny really-have never experienced anything quite like it before.
 The Visseaux work just as well with Horizon 3 and Starlight too. Look good as well, as your nice picture shows.
  
 PS.No need to apologise about the GE's. I learn something new every day, maybe almost every time I switch on.
 I'm thinking about those 6C8G's for next year, maybe-depends if anything is left in the bank!


----------



## DecentLevi

Yeah honestly I feel spoiled with these Visseaux tubes, and start to wonder things like what the $%&* have I been listening to my whole life before these. No faults whatsoever with the sound of these tubes, and unfortunately to my other tubes they're not getting much playtime. Have you ever heard a better tube in any of the sound attributes?
  
 Oh also another small tip for grounding - I've found that a somewhat thicker gauge wire seems to reduce the buzzing better than a thin wire (see wire example in my photo above).


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Yeah honestly I feel spoiled with these Visseaux tubes, and start to wonder things like what the $%&* have I been listening to my whole life before these. No faults whatsoever with the sound of these tubes, and unfortunately to my other tubes they're not getting much playtime. Have you ever heard a better tube in any of the sound attributes?
> 
> Oh also another small tip for grounding - I've found that a somewhat thicker gauge wire seems to reduce the buzzing better than a thin wire (see wire example in my photo above).


 
  I think I still prefer 'Bad Boy' for female vocals and FrankenEmber set ups for big orchestral stuff, but for just about all other Classical and Jazz the 6J5's sound great to me, and probably are the best I've heard so far.
 I must admit though to still being a bit 'on a high' over the Visseaux as they were the first 6J'5's I tried, (actually in the Horizon3). At the time I had no idea they would even work as a class of tube in G1217 amps. A couple of days later I broke the adapter, as you already know, and had a VERY frustrating 10 day wait for another one.
 Having said that the search for even better sound still drives us on. I wouldn't like to think we had reached the end of the road for perfection. I'm sure we haven't.
 My uncle used to say the sound from his 1940's radio bettered any of this modern stereo 'nonsense'- maybe he had a point,(of sorts)!


----------



## Tunkejazz

Umm all this talk about the 6j5 is making me a bit jealous. My last acquisition was a Russian 6n23p which is the most clear tube I have tried (the 6sn7 are close). Just lacking a bit in the bottom end. 

But I want to try something new for Christmas. So far I have been curious about the following:

- A vintage (late 60s' early 70s') 6n6p gold grid. From those dates can be found at around $20 per tube.

- Go for a 6N30Pi, these can be found at $30 per tube.

- Try the 6j5 setup with the Visseaux. This would set me over $100 which is a bit steep for my taste. For that price one can even try one of the original 6N30P-DR.

Any thoughts?


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Umm all this talk about the 6j5 is making me a bit jealous. My last acquisition was a Russian 6n23p which is the most clear tube I have tried (the 6sn7 are close). Just lacking a bit in the bottom end.
> 
> But I want to try something new for Christmas. So far I have been curious about the following:
> 
> ...


 
 First thought is you don't have to jump straight for the Visseaux to experience the 6J5 class sound. There are others which, in their own ways, may suit you even better., Like any tube type it comes down to trial and error, which, as you imply, can be expensive.
 The 6J5 to ECC88 adapter will cost about $31 with postage, and you can source a pair of 6J5's/6S2S/6S5S/ 6C5C's, all of which will give you the flavour of the class, for about $30 with postage. There are even cheaper metal bottle varieties but I can't vouch for their sound as I haven't heard any yet.
 The 6N6P and 6N30Pi Russian tubes you mention that I've heard are all very good with Ember, but I personally prefer your 'Bad Boys'.
 However, an original 6N30P-DR for $100 sounds a good deal, though best check it's genuine before purchase as the ones I've seen cost more than double that.
 So many choices..
 Good Luck!........
  
 EDIT: Think I read recently on another site that the sound from the metal 6J5's was just as good as the glass ones.


----------



## connieflyer

Howie, Levi, which seller did you get the  Visseaux from?  A good recommendation on a seller is always welcome, waiting on my Hytrom 6c5.s and new adapter, first one did not fit without tube extender, so ordered one with 6sn7 base, Jeremy's adapter is much more stable.


----------



## Tunkejazz

connieflyer said:


> Howie, Levi, which seller did you get the  Visseaux from?  A good recommendation on a seller is always welcome, waiting on my Hytrom 6c5.s and new adapter, first one did not fit without tube extender, so ordered one with 6sn7 base, Jeremy's adapter is much more stable.


 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6J5G-VISSEAUX-NOS-BOXED-valves-tubes-/310708999592?hash=item4857b315a8:g:HBYAAOxyi6hR6Snr


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks for  the link, have to wait a little till the credit card cools off!


----------



## Tunkejazz

howie13 said:


> First thought is you don't have to jump straight for the Visseaux to experience the 6J5 class sound. There are others which, in their own ways, may suit you even better., Like any tube type it comes down to trial and error, which, as you imply, can be expensive.
> The 6J5 to ECC88 adapter will cost about $31 with postage, and you can source a pair of 6J5's/6S2S/6S5S/ 6C5C's, all of which will give you the flavour of the class, for about $30 with postage. There are even cheaper metal bottle varieties but I can't vouch for their sound as I haven't heard any yet.
> The 6N6P and 6N30Pi Russian tubes you mention that I've heard are all very good with Ember, but I personally prefer your 'Bad Boys'.
> However, an original 6N30P-DR for $100 sounds a good deal, though best check it's genuine before purchase as the ones I've seen cost more than double that.
> ...


 
 Thanks for your comments @HOWIE13
 Problem is after buying the demo Polaris and the modified Philips headphones from Frans, I feel quite a lot of economic guilt  (you also got a pair right?).
  


connieflyer said:


> Thanks for  the link, have to wait a little till the credit card cools off!


 

  
 Same here. In fact, I should sell a few of my "Bad Boys" to get some cash back. I shamefully sourced a set of decently priced ("per-tube")  Bad Boys but still too many for one user. If anyone wants one, just let me know. The price will be the same I paid for them (~42 EUR). The seller tested all of them and they are in very good condition 
  
 See my post at diyah about this: http://diyah.boards.net/post/16758


----------



## connieflyer

I know what you mean, I have way more tubes than I will ever wear out. Perfectly happy with the dual 6L5's, 6J5.s, so I found some Hytron 6J5's that Howie liked and bought them.  Stil got some nice 9 pin and 6sn7's, 7193's, extra pair Sehh650s,  should go on Ebay and open up a store!


----------



## amigastar

Bookmarking the 6J5. When my money flows in i will definitely try out some *Visseaux 6J5* with my Ember II, if they are really that good (endgame tubes?)


----------



## connieflyer

Problem I have is everytime I buy an endgame set of tubes, someone else finds something better. Can't seem to get ahead of the game!


----------



## amigastar

LOL yeah probably thats how it will play out.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6J5G-VISSEAUX-NOS-BOXED-valves-tubes-/310708999592?hash=item4857b315a8:g:HBYAAOxyi6hR6Snr


 
@connieflyer
 Yes that's the same seller I used. Good experience dealing with him.


----------



## HOWIE13

@Tunkejazz
 I can't wait to get home from holiday to try those modded Philips.


----------



## DecentLevi

Looks like Frankenstein has officially left the building.

  
 I have two pairs of RCA 7193 and one Ken-Rad 7193 pair + the dual adapter. Anybody like to buy them, please contact me.
  
  
 Also Howie, no this is definitely not just being on a high, or new toy syndrome with the Visseaux 6J5 tubes, but there are clear and present sonic improvements in basically all regards with these over other tubes I've tried.
  
@connieflyer while we would love for you to also experience of the Visseaux, it looks from your profile that you already have a similar bottle shaped dual tube setup. Which type is it? Maybe one of us would be able to tell you whether it's worth the upgrade from your current one or not.
  
@Tunkejazz I would like one of your bad boys, and have an excess of 6SN7, 7193s and 6J5s. Please PM me if you would like to trade several for one of yours


----------



## connieflyer

DecentLevi I have a pair of National Union 6L5G's  http://www.ebay.com/itm/351568283638?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 and two Sylvania 6J5GT's  http://www.ebay.com/itm/351575900241?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 Both sound better for the most part than my Kenrad 7193's


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello, oh I see which tubes those are. I actually have the same Sylvania 6J5GT tubes, and after at least 2 A/B comparisons to my Visseaux 6J5's, there's really just... no comparison hands down. Every factor is done better (like noted on my review on the last page). I can't compare the National Union 6L5G since I've never tried them, but I'll tell you that unless these are vastly superior to the Sylvania, then the Visseaux would be a major upgrade, as it is to me at least 40% better all around. Maybe someone else can chime in about the National Union 6L5G compared to the Visseaux though.
  
 Also you all can just call me Levi, it's my real first name.


----------



## connieflyer

Thanks for the update Levi, will have to put the Visseaux on the list to invest in after the holidays.  With wife's medical bills cash is somewhat short.  Should try to sell off excess tubes and headphones on ebay and generate some spare cash I suppose


----------



## HOWIE13

I've bought a pair of 6L5G's. Can compare when they arrive-probably at least 10 days.


----------



## tommo21

Oh ***
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.....I can't stop this madness.....now I've also ordered the Visseaux tubes......and the Fostex TH-0XX headphone. Still waiting for the 6J5 adapther though...


----------



## Demo3

tommo21 said:


> Oh ***
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Dude just don't think about it.  I told my wife last night that I was thinking about some new hps and I got "How are those hps different than the ones you already have", and not in the way she really wanted to know.  If the Denver Broncos had not defeated the New England Patriots the evening would have been a total loss.  As it is the Ether C is still on my must have list for early next year, along with the Visseaux.
  
 I still LOVE her.


----------



## Tunkejazz

Well my wife just bought a bag that is more expensive than any headphone I will ever own...no questions asked


----------



## connieflyer

tunkejazz said:


> Well my wife just bought a bag that is more expensive than any headphone I will ever own...no questions asked


 
 Smart man!  I have done that with my wife in the past, kind of evens the score!


----------



## connieflyer

howie13 said:


> I've bought a pair of 6L5G's. Can compare when they arrive-probably at least 10 days.


 
 Please let me know how they stack up with your other tubes, I like them better than the 6J5GT's.  Would be interesting to see where they stack up to the Visseaux tubes.


----------



## connieflyer

Interesting read on Visseaux tubes.  http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tubes&m=228968&VT=T


----------



## DecentLevi

Yeah @HOWIE13 I would also like to see how th 6L5G's compare to the Visseaux (sonically anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )
  
@tommo21 welcome to the club. And those brand new closed Fostex's seem interesting


----------



## richard51

this 6j5 tube celebration does not  want to go out of my head.....i had a question : some *metal can 6j5* tube are  less expansive (vs. the visseaux tubes)  someone have try them ?


----------



## DecentLevi

richard51 said:


> this 6j5 tube celebration does not  want to go out of my head.....i had a question : some *metal can 6j5* tube are  less expansive (vs. the visseaux tubes)  someone have try them ?


 
 Yes in this informal comparison I was comparing them to two pairs of the cheaper metal base 6J5's. As unintelligible as this may sound, I think perhaps the larger bottle allows for a larger soundstage, as well as other sonic goodies. I did however notice in a 2nd A/B with other tubes that while the bass is faster with the Visseaux, the overall bass definition was better with a GE 6SN7 GTA - the Coke bottle tube still won in all other aspects though. I'm not completely discounting the idea however, that other 6J5 straight or bottle shaped tubes I haven't tried yet might be even better.


----------



## richard51

decentlevi said:


> Yes in this informal comparison I was comparing them to two pairs of the cheaper metal base 6J5's. As unintelligible as this may sound, I think perhaps the larger bottle allows for a larger soundstage, as well as other sonic goodies. I did however notice in a 2nd A/B with other tubes that while the bass is faster with the Visseaux, the overall bass definition was better with a GE 6SN7 GTA - the Coke bottle tube still won in all other aspects though. I'm not completely discounting the idea however, that other 6J5 straight or bottle shaped tubes I haven't tried yet might be even better.


 

 thanks very much Levi 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I dont have too much money now and i had already the 7193...i ask to myself if the metal can 6j5 was good enough to compare with the 7193.... I cannot afford the visseaux now.... the adapter is not  too much expansive i wil order it and wait for some 6j6 less expansive than the visseaux....


----------



## HOWIE13

@richard51 
 I haven't personally heard any metal can 6J5's though they are very cheap to buy at present.
 There was a recent post on DIYAH and the metal can/ bottle 6J5's were reported to sound just as good as glass bottle ones. 
 I like the Russian varieties too, including Pinnacles, which I believe are Russian made -much cheaper, not for bassheads, but very clean, articulate sounding and with the big sound stage.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Interesting read on Visseaux tubes.  http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tubes&m=228968&VT=T


 
 That's fascinating-I would guess these tubes we are using are around '40's-50's, only guessing though. The boxes certainly smell old.
 Here's a poster:
  

  
 PS.  TSF is an old French term for a radio
       literally, 'télégraphie sans fil'-  telegraph without thread.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Please let me know how they stack up with your other tubes, I like them better than the 6J5GT's.  Would be interesting to see where they stack up to the Visseaux tubes.


 
 @ connieflyer and DecentLevi
 They are about to be transported to the UK


----------



## connieflyer

Glad you liked the read and thanks for the heads up on the tube arrivals soon.  I have read also that the metal cans are just as good as as the gt's saw a pair on ebay that were RCA brand new for about $20.  Almost went for them, but saw the Hytron's you said you liked so I got them instead.  Will be shipping today.  These are used, but real cheap if you just want to try them   http://www.ebay.com/itm/231765245166?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 or for new RCA's  http://www.ebay.com/itm/121824323536?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Glad you liked the read and thanks for the heads up on the tube arrivals soon.  I have read also that the metal cans are just as good as as the gt's saw a pair on ebay that were RCA brand new for about $20.  Almost went for them, but saw the Hytron's you said you liked so I got them instead.  Will be shipping today.  These are used, but real cheap if you just want to try them   http://www.ebay.com/itm/231765245166?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> or for new RCA's  http://www.ebay.com/itm/121824323536?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 
 Thanks for the links-I've gone for the RCA's because I am intrigued as to how these metal ones sound in my system. I have some paint ready to make them look more attractive if need be. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## amigastar

So are the 6J5G worth it? Whats the sound signature of those?
 I want to know because my sister asked me today what if there would be something i'd like to have for christmas.
 Are they very different from the 6n6p?
  
 Or does somebody know also some other tube he likes?


----------



## skyline315

amigastar said:


> So are the 6J5G worth it? Whats the sound signature of those?
> I want to know because my sister asked me today what if there would be something i'd like to have for christmas.
> Are they very different from the 6n6p?
> 
> Or does somebody know also some other tube he likes?


 
 Don't worry too much about tubes at first.  Just listen to one or two and really acclimate yourself to what you're hearing.
  
 I'd recommend the 6DJ8 as an excellent all arounder.  The 6N6P is better for headphones that could use a little darkening.  Neither of these tubes require extra adapters or hassle.
  
 Start with those and be content until you really get a handle on things.


----------



## amigastar

This one maybe?:
  
 http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_Other_brands_OEM_Tubes_Preamp_doubletriodes/6DJ8_ECC88_6N23P_3735
  
 Allrounder sounds good since i also think the 6N6P is little bit darker (but excellent) so some slightly brighter tube would be good for now.


----------



## skyline315

amigastar said:


> This one maybe?:
> 
> http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_Other_brands_OEM_Tubes_Preamp_doubletriodes/6DJ8_ECC88_6N23P_3735
> 
> Allrounder sounds good since i also think the 6N6P is little bit darker (but excellent) so some slightly brighter tube would be good for now.


 
  
 I'm sure Jeremy has some good ones at a reasonable price.  Mine is an Amperex (rebranded Mullard tube) and I love it.


----------



## amigastar

yes, the problem is i'm in europe and would need to import a single tube from america, so i would rather buy it in Europe even if i love to deal with jeremy he's really nice guy.
 But if I'm on the safer side i could of course order from him.


----------



## Tunkejazz

amigastar said:


> yes, the problem is i'm in europe and would need to import a single tube from america, so i would rather buy it in Europe even if i love to deal with jeremy he's really nice guy.
> But if I'm on the safer side i could of course order from him.




I have a Reflektor 6N23P single wire (1974) and it sounds great: very clear without getting harsh or bright (at all). I like ot more than all my 6SN7 tubes with the exception of the Syl 'bad boys'. I also like it better than the frankenEmber, it has a bit better entension on both ends.

Lately I keep switching between the Bad Boys and this one without a clear favourite. The Bad Boys don't pick any EMI while this 6N23P picks a bit in my office. Moving it around in my desk seems to solve it though.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Thanks for your comments @HOWIE13
> Problem is after buying the demo Polaris and the modified Philips headphones from Frans, I feel quite a lot of economic guilt  (you also got a pair right?).
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I would have thought one of those 'Bad Boys' would make an excellent Christmas present.


----------



## Tunkejazz

howie13 said:


> I would have thought one of those 'Bad Boys' would make an excellent Christmas present. :wink_face:




I think so too and they are quite hard to find properly tested, but I don't want people to think that I recommend these tubes just because I happen to have a few that I want to sell!


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> I think so too and they are quite hard to find properly tested, but I don't want people to think that I recommend these tubes just because I happen to have a few that I want to sell!


 
 Yes, and not only that but a quick look at the UK eBay site reveals so many tubes called 'Bad Boys' which clearly are not, as we understand them.
 It's a minefield for the unwary buyer!
 Your price is very reasonable and I would have bought one myself if I didn't already have a few of my own. 
 The adapter is not expensive either, and once purchased will afford the rolling of so many good 6SN7's.


----------



## Lohb

Looking at the Ember 2 for LCD 2.1 and I wonder what tube would help with expanding the soundstage/separation of instruments and adding a bit of zing to the treble region... ?


----------



## tommo21

While waiting for my 6J5 adapter I've been using a 6SN7GTB Tung- Sol brown base tube. Black plates and o-getter on top(chrome-top like). This is quite a fine tube. Maybe the best 6sn7 tube I've tested so far. I have tested a Bad Boy, but it was so microphonic it just lasted a few minutes before I couldn't take it anymore. I hope my 6J5 adapter arrives today.


----------



## Tunkejazz

tommo21 said:


> While waiting for my 6J5 adapter I've been using a 6SN7GTB Tung- Sol brown base tube. Black plates and o-getter on top(chrome-top like). This is quite a fine tube. Maybe the best 6sn7 tube I've tested so far. I have tested a Bad Boy, but it was so microphonic it just lasted a few minutes before I couldn't take it anymore. I hope my 6J5 adapter arrives today.




As far as I have tested none of the ones I have suffer from microphonics. In fact I can tap on the Ember and I don't notice anything but I guess microphony can be especific to certain units of the same model.


----------



## DecentLevi

lohb said:


> Looking at the Ember 2 for LCD 2.1 and I wonder what tube would help with expanding the soundstage/separation of instruments and adding a bit of zing to the treble region... ?


 
 My friend I would definitely recommend the dual Visseaux tubes. Those are a SMACK DOWN match for what you're looking for! All of the 6J5 tubes seem to excel in the soundstage / separation, even the cheaper ones.


----------



## HOWIE13

tommo21 said:


> While waiting for my 6J5 adapter I've been using a 6SN7GTB Tung- Sol brown base tube. Black plates and o-getter on top(chrome-top like). This is quite a fine tube. Maybe the best 6sn7 tube I've tested so far. I have tested a Bad Boy, but it was so microphonic it just lasted a few minutes before I couldn't take it anymore. I hope my 6J5 adapter arrives today.


 
 I have the black base version of that Tung-Sol and it's a nice tube and very good value. Neutral and easy on the ear.
 That's a shame about your 'Bad Boy', I wonder if it was faulty. How did the microphony manifest itself? I find even with very microphonic tubes they don't generally cause a problem once you're settled and have finished adjusting the amp and 'Bad Boy' isn't, as far as I'm aware, regarded as a noisy tube.
 I hope the 6J5's work better for you.


----------



## tommo21

howie13 said:


> I have the black base version of that Tung-Sol and it's a nice tube and very good value. Neutral and easy on the ear.
> I wonder if your 'Bad Boy' was faulty. How did the microphony manifest itself? I find even with very microphonic tubes they don't generally cause a problem once you're settled and have finished adjusting the amp and 'Bad Boy' isn't, as far as I'm aware, regarded as a noisy tube.


 
  
 It was so bad it ringed in mye ears just as I bumped into my desk. I can't remember now, but it it might have been that the tubeglass was loose from the base or something like that. I also have a Ken-Rad tube that's got the same problem unfortunatly.


----------



## HOWIE13

tommo21 said:


> It was so bad it ringed in mye ears just as I bumped into my desk. I can't remember now, but it it might have been that the tubeglass was loose from the base or something like that. I also have a Ken-Rad tube that's got the same problem unfortunatly.


 
  


tommo21 said:


> It was so bad it ringed in mye ears just as I bumped into my desk. I can't remember now, but it it might have been that the tubeglass was loose from the base or something like that. I also have a Ken-Rad tube that's got the same problem unfortunatly.


 
 Yes, I guess it could have been a  connection problem due to the glass being loose.  That's a real bummer, particularly with the K-R as well. 
 I had a similar problem with a TungSol. I think it's to do with the fact that previously these tubes have been removed from their sockets by rolling and pulling holding the bottle rather than the base.


----------



## Mechans1

amigastar said:


> yes, the problem is i'm in europe and would need to import a single tube from america, so i would rather buy it in Europe even if i love to deal with jeremy he's really nice guy.
> But if I'm on the safer side i could of course order from him.


 

 I have been collecting for quite a while now, and can tell you that Jeremy's prices are more than fair.  I don't know what 'caliber' of tube you seek, IOW how rare, perfect and desirable ? The nine pin dual triodes he was clearing out, mainly 5751s were well worth a trial .  Given the price and  if you haven't tried them yet. 
 A European dealer, Tango Tubes has been recommended to me multiple times.  His stuff is mainly rare and collectable his prices are in line with that.  It is fun to peruse his site in any event.
 I haven't come across a tube yet that really says " I am the tube you seek" .  I  Went back to the Raytheon windmill getter 5751 today, its good for me but I like the analytic, detailed type sound.
 .  Do you have the 6SN7 adapter?  There is a 6SN7 for everyone's  taste and there are still billions of them out there, unlike the small signal 9 pin  pre amp dual triodes, except maybe the 12AT7 /ECC81
 Let us know when you have settled on the tube you like?


----------



## amigastar

Honestly, for now i'm very satisfied with my 6N6P, the whole Ember amp lifted of a veil i've had with the m-stage (stock configuration that is)
 I wrote jeremy and this is what he said about the 6DJ8:
  


> I have several amperex at the moment that I need to test (same price). We are changing over how we list tubes and it is all in progress.


 
  
 So i will probably order an Amperex from him.
  
 So yeah, it's all good


----------



## connieflyer

I just picked up these....http://www.ebay.com/itm/401035448943   Sylvania 6c5G's, they look really cool, don't have a clue how they will sound, but have to give them try.  The Viss's will be next.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> I just picked up these....http://www.ebay.com/itm/401035448943   Sylvania 6c5G's, they look really cool, don't have a clue how they will sound, but have to give them try.  The Viss's will be next.


 
 They look great-I have some straight bottled 6C5G's and they sound very good in Ember, but those Sylvanias- well, I'm very envious.


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## DecentLevi

@connieflyer we would enjoy reading your impressions on the sound after you try the 6c5G's.
  
 I would call the soundstage I'm getting from the Visseaux's as 'holographic' (what's the better word for it?) deep, wide and lifelike, which especially is sounding marvelous when using the Ember as a tube-buffer for my electrostatic headphone rig. For some genres I have to roll a tube with a smaller stage though. I highly encourage any of you to also try the Ember with tubes you like as a pre-amp for the likes of a speaker system too. Users of other more TOTL tube amps have reporting astoundingly great results when they plugged the amp into their home stereo system, most notably the way it enhances the soundstage in your room.
  
 EDIT: The word I was looking for was *cavernous*, for the stage of those Visseaux's


----------



## richard51

decentlevi said:


> @connieflyer we would enjoy reading your impressions on the sound after you try the 6c5G's.
> 
> I would call the soundstage I'm getting from the Visseaux's as 'holographic' (what's the better word for it?) deep, wide and lifelike, which especially is sounding marvelous when using the Ember as a tube-buffer for my electrostatic headphone rig. For some genres I have to roll a tube with a smaller stage though. I highly encourage any of you to also try the Ember with tubes you like as a pre-amp for the likes of a speaker system too. Users of other more TOTL tube amps have reporting astoundingly great results when they plugged the amp into their home stereo system, most notably the way it enhances the soundstage in your room.


 

 i use the Ember like a pre amp for my monsoon speakers... the effect is spectacular transformation of my speakers amplified planars....Tubes count in the final result....


----------



## connieflyer

These look kind of interesting as well....http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-RARE-Matched-Pair-6S5S-6C5C-6J5GT-VT94D-6C5GT-Triode-Tubes-NOS-60-s-/171346209819?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368....


----------



## dpump

connieflyer said:


> These look kind of interesting as well....http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-RARE-Matched-Pair-6S5S-6C5C-6J5GT-VT94D-6C5GT-Triode-Tubes-NOS-60-s-/171346209819?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368....


 
 I tried these. While they sounded fine, they had an audible background hum I couldn't eliminate. Also tried a pair of GE 6C5 metal tubes-didn't like them compared to the RCA 6J5 metal. Also had a background hum that was audible but less than the 6S5S mentioned above. I also thought the 6C5 was more congested than the 6J5 and the bass was somewhat loose and bloomy. I would stick with the 6J5 metal which to me sounds pretty much the same as the 6J5G glass.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> These look kind of interesting as well....http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-RARE-Matched-Pair-6S5S-6C5C-6J5GT-VT94D-6C5GT-Triode-Tubes-NOS-60-s-/171346209819?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368....


 
 I have those. Very nice too. I think one did have a quiet background hum and the other two are fine.
 I must try the metal ones though.


----------



## tommo21

Finally got my 6J5 Adapter yesterday. First out on them is the 6J5 Sylvania metalcans.
  
 .


----------



## DecentLevi

As I've heard, tubes of that appearance are actually painted glass, which can be sanded off to reveal a 'pearl'. So how are the sounds?


----------



## tommo21

decentlevi said:


> As I've heard, tubes of that appearance are actually painted glass, which can be sanded off to reveal a 'pearl'. So how are the sounds?


 
 I bit early to tell I think. These were NOS NIB and probably need a few hours before they fully sing. This is my first experience with 6J5 tubes, but I will say that the first thing I notice is that they're spacious and airy. Pretty neutral...at least these tubes.
  
 When I tap the tubes, the material sound from the can sounds metallic, but I've also seen metal can tubes with glass under the metal, but if you look at this link: http://vinylsavor.blogspot.no/2013/03/tube-of-month-6j5.html you'll see someone dissect one of these tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

I think they look really smart in your Ember, with the black aluminium chassis. I like the way the green print on the tube bases matches the green in the adapter. I never thought black metal tubes could look so good.


----------



## tommo21

howie13 said:


> I think they look really smart in your Ember, with the black aluminium chassis. I like the way the green print on the tube bases matches the green in the adapter. I never thought black metal tubes could look so good.


 
 It's very industrial looking. I like it as well.
  
 Had a little connection problem and hum with the adapter at first, but after bending the pins a little outwards there's much better connection with the socket in the Ember.


----------



## HOWIE13

Yes, the adapter pins are rather long and spindly and not as easy to insert as they look. Once in though they are secure. I had damp in one of my adapters when it was delivered, caused by it being stored in a freezing cold postal warehouse, and it made an awful noise. I had to wipe the pins with deoxit and let it warm up and then it was fine.
 Maybe we should encourage Jeremy to make a dual 6J5 to 6DJ8 adapter for us, of the same high quality as his 6SN7 to 6DJ8/12AU7 adapter.


----------



## tommo21

howie13 said:


> Yes, the adapter pins are rather long and spindly and not as easy to insert as they look. Once in though they are secure. I had damp in one of my adapters when it was delivered, caused by it being stored in a freezing cold postal warehouse, and it made an awful noise. I had to wipe the pins with deoxit and let it warm up and then it was fine.
> Maybe we should encourage Jeremy to make a dual 6J5 to 6DJ8 adapter for us, of the same high quality as his 6SN7 to 6DJ8/12AU7 adapter.


 
 That would be cool.
  
 I don't necessary think this adapter is bad quality, but would be more secure of the quality if Jeremy made it. I don't like the socket and the soldered cables on this adapter. I feel that's the weak points,  and I think maybe Jeremy could improve on that part.
  
 I also feel after just a few hours with these 6J5 tubes, that they are absolutely one of the best type of tubes for the Ember.
  
 My favourites types so far in random order:
  
 1. 6J5 
 2. 6N6P, 6n6P-IV (Saratov)
 3. 6SN7 (Tung- Sol/GE/CBS Hytron)
 4. 7193 (Hytron)
 5. E88CC (Telefunken)


----------



## HOWIE13

tommo21 said:


> That would be cool.
> 
> I don't necessary think this adapter is bad quality, but would be more secure of the quality if Jeremy made it. I don't like the socket and the soldered cables on this adapter. I feel that's the weak points,  and I think maybe Jeremy could improve on that part.
> 
> ...


 
 Great to learn you like their sound. They work just as well with Horizon 3 and Starlight too. I don't have Sunrise or Solstice but would be surprised if they didn't sound good with them too.
 Maybe something else Jeremy could also consider is to update the Manuals to include all these new Octals. I know he is very busy- that's the problem when your kit is so good!
 Looking forward to your further evaluation as they burn in. Cheers.


----------



## connieflyer

Waiting for more tubes, just got in some Hytron nos/nib 6c5gt's have only been using for a couple of hours but sound pretty good. Mid range is strong, and it is the strong point, IMHO.  All around nice tube considering not used before, original boxes, $10 for the pair,   https://vod.ebay.com/vod/FetchOrderDetails?sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AVPS&itemid=351587823729&transid=0&viewpaymentstatus= plus four other Hytrons, I will never use, can not complain.  Broke down and ordered a pair of Vissenex tubes. These better sound great or I am hunting some folks down!  All kidding a side, should have enough tubes to outlast me now.  Should stop reading this forum.  Had to quit some others getting really redundant.  So far this one has a lot of useful info .


----------



## DecentLevi

Yeah It's good to see this thread re-awoken after what I consider a 1/2 year lull. But it is becoming a bit of an 'expensive thread', mostly due to Howie & I  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Maybe Head-Fi should just charge a monthly subscription then we could have unlimited access to try mid-fi or summit-fi gear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But that's what I guess meets are for, and they're free mostly.
  
 But seriously if your Visseaux 6J5's are defective or not up to par, refunds of exchanges can be had even from overseas sellers. Oh also about the Visseaux tubes:
 Mine are both noisy so I'm having the seller send me a few more to compare & find a quiet combination. If anyone in the US wants some Visseaux tubes, send me a PM - this way I can send the extras to you instead of your having to wait for them to ship from the UK; otherwise I'll just send them back over.


----------



## connieflyer

Good luck with those, mine will be fine, I will just tell myself it is a leaking oxygen tank!


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Waiting for more tubes, just got in some Hytron nos/nib 6c5gt's have only been using for a couple of hours but sound pretty good. Mid range is strong, and it is the strong point, IMHO.  All around nice tube considering not used before, original boxes, $10 for the pair,   https://vod.ebay.com/vod/FetchOrderDetails?sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AVPS&itemid=351587823729&transid=0&viewpaymentstatus= plus four other Hytrons, I will never use, can not complain.  Broke down and ordered a pair of Vissenex tubes. These better sound great or I am hunting some folks down!  All kidding a side, should have enough tubes to outlast me now.  Should stop reading this forum.  Had to quit some others getting really redundant.  So far this one has a lot of useful info .


 
 That's exactly how I'm feeling-completely 'tubed out'.
 Got back from holiday today and more tubes are waiting for me in the Post Depot. There are some metal 6J5's and one or two other exotic tubes to try. That's me broke as well-at least until 2016
 The Hytrons are the warmest I've tried and I find them very pleasant and easy to listen to. They particularly suit my AKG 701, which is difficult to pair, though when it's 'on song' it's an excellent can IMHO. The Hytrons are a little too warm with HD650's for my taste, though no hum with them. Hytrons do hum quietly, though not audibly when music is playing, with some of my lower impedance cans-but not with any of 250ohms or more. I generally can get rid of hum with the usual methods (earthing etc). I haven't had any noise yet from Visseaux though.
 One way I once removed hum from a 7193 K-R  FrankenEmber was to switch off the Freezer. The wife was none too impressed. It really worked though-honest.
  
 PS I promised to let you know whether my Hytrons were G or GT. Turns out they are both- marked as GT/G in pale brown etching on the bottle.


----------



## Mechans1

The fact that turning off an appliance helping to reduce hum in your case, and noise, in many others, is why audio people like to use dedicated lines.  Dedicated lines are probably the best possible  tweak  for many. I had them installed in my listening room in my old house.  It was a better option for me than a power regenerator or other fancy power boxes and gizmos.


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## HOWIE13

mechans1 said:


> The fact that turning off an appliance helping to reduce hum in your case, and noise, in many others, is why audio people like to use dedicated lines.  Dedicated lines are probably the best possible  tweak  for many. I had them installed in my listening room in my old house.  It was a better option for me than a power regenerator or other fancy power boxes and gizmos.


 
 Thanks I'll look into that-only problem is I live in an apartment block and might need to get permission to do any changes to my electricity supply.


----------



## richard51

i want to try metal can 6j5... they are at low price....Visseaux is out of reach for me now... I want to know if there will be a big difference between some metal can 6j5 and my 7193 and the visseaux... I will wait for your review to you all....it is one of the more friendly and productive thread here thanks to you all ....


----------



## connieflyer

Howie, I agree with you on the Hytrons, mine are marked in original boxes 65cgt/g as well and they are straight bottle tubes, no hum or noise.  Turning up volumn all the way, with no signal applied they are silent. They are a little to warm with the 650's, it has a nice sound, but I still prefer the 6l5g's for now.  Others on the way so will let you know what I find.  Glad you liked your time in Spain, would be a very nice place to visit.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Howie, I agree with you on the Hytrons, mine are marked in original boxes 65cgt/g as well and they are straight bottle tubes, no hum or noise.  Turning up volumn all the way, with no signal applied they are silent. They are a little to warm with the 650's, it has a nice sound, but I still prefer the 6l5g's for now.  Others on the way so will let you know what I find.  Glad you liked your time in Spain, would be a very nice place to visit.


 
 Thanks, Southern Spain is so nice this time of year-quiet and surprisingly warm and sunny.
 I haven't received those 6L5G tubes yet-they are somewhere over the North Atlantic just now, but I found some KenRad metals waiting for me so I'll try them over the weekend. 
 Hytron seems to buck the trend of the 6J5's which, of the ones I've heard, tend to be more airy, detailed, punchy and articulate, but they will be useful to have available to tame over bright cans and recordings or when I just need a good 'wind down'.


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> i want to try metal can 6j5... they are at low price....Visseaux is out of reach for me now... I want to know if there will be a big difference between some metal can 6j5 and my 7193 and the visseaux... I will wait for your review to you all....it is one of the more friendly and productive thread here thanks to you all ....


 
 Hi richard51
 It's nice to have your thoughts and thanks for your kind comments about the thread.
 From what I gather there have been one or two glass/metal comparisons and no real difference perceived. I'm going to listen to some metals over the weekend.
 The Visseaux are the most expensive of the bunch I've tried, but fortunately most other 6J5 tubes are relatively cheap, and some very cheap.
 Cheers.


----------



## CZ4A

All this talk about Franken-Embers and 6J5s... I still have a big collection of more conventional twin triodes to go through! Not quite ready to take the Franken-Ember (Franken-Rise? Sun-Stein?) plunge. 

One thing I like is that the easy bias system and ability to bypass the input capacitors means I can still use some very weak tubes in my amp. I bought a set of four Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7s with three out of four testing weak (the weakest scores 3/3 on my EMC emissions tester, on a scale of 1-50!). I can hear why they are so treasured...


----------



## connieflyer

Thought this page may be helpful information......http://www.nostalgickitscentral.com/info/vtxref2.html


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## connieflyer

Another interesting read on 6j5's including taking apart a metal 6j5 for those that wondered......http://vinylsavor.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/tube-of-month-6j5.html...


----------



## druelle

Quick n00b question:  I have the 1st edition Ember without the Supercharger.  Would the dual 6J5s work without the Supercharger?


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

Is there another ember thread or this is the main one? 

Also, any of you guys using a linear power supply instead of the stock? If so, where did you source it? I know Jeremy has one in the works but no release date yet.


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## DecentLevi

Yes *here* is the Ember review thread, but most of us are on the tube rolling thread now. I don't know if any of us use a linear power supply - but I sure need one to silence the buzz I'm getting


----------



## Mechans1

Strong quiet power is a ubiquitous quest in good audio. The big bad power amps are so often truly heavyweights because of their enormous power transformers and capacitors to match.  I don't know how  Jeremy is approaching the matter but a 2 chassis system has been done in many other components.
 Also @druelle
 If the 6J5s X2 draw more that 500mA then you need the supercharger.


----------



## HOWIE13

druelle said:


> Quick n00b question:  I have the 1st edition Ember without the Supercharger.  Would the dual 6J5s work without the Supercharger?


 
 Dual 6J5 has the same current draw as a single 6SN7, about 600 mA, so you would need the supercharger to be sure they will work.


----------



## TraceStar

I have Project Ember II and man... I'm bitten by the tube hunting bug. Used a Bravo Ocean before this and with that one, I stopped after trying a couple of tubes.

Went through the 12au7s I had from Bravo Ocean, tried out 12ax7, 6DJ8 and stuck with Electro Harmonix 6NS7 for a couple of months. The recommended 6NS7s were way too expensive for me...

Right now on a pair of Zenith 6J5Gs and loving it. So far they're the best tubes I've used. Not good with sound descriptions but it sounds more airy and clear to me. Instruments are well separated and the strings are excellent. Vocals sound great too. Bass is decent. I haven't tried comparing the bass with earlier tubes I used though. Not a basshead, I'm ok as long as there's decent and clear bass.

My headphone is the Grado GH-1

I have a pair of 6L5G ordered.... Will






Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Astral Abyss

I've been lurking in this thread for a while, secretly lusting over the Ember 2 and its tube rolling goodness.  I've had a Lyr 2 for almost a year now, so I'm no stranger to tube rolling, but it's always left me feeling like there's more out there I'm missing.  The Ember, with it's ridiculously huge tube selection, sounds awfully fun in comparison.  Also helps that I live about 80 miles from Garage1217 and can go pick it up personally if I want, and that he answers email questions almost immediately.  Seems like a great guy and a great amp.  Anyway, I'll be joining your ranks soon, as I'm getting the Ember 2 and 6SN7 adapter as a Christmas gift.  
  
 I've got a nice collection of 6DJ8/ECC88 and 6922/E88CC tubes to try in it, along with a Telefunken ECC83 and Tung-Sol 6SN7GT mouse ear.  Don't know if I'll take the plunge and get one of those dual tube adapters, but I love reading about all the crazy stuff you guys are doing with this amp.
  
 I'm glad this thread has gotten more active lately and hope to hear about more of your tube rolling adventures.  I'm taking notes.


----------



## richard51

bienvenue...this thread is one of the friendliest there is and very informative....i considered myself lucky to have the Ember and all the guys here who experimented with tubes...thanks to all....


----------



## connieflyer

Got a pair of Sylvania 6C5g's(shoulder type tube), got about 4 hours on these.  They are sounding great, mid range is very clear, treble is up there where it belongs and bassline if fine. As they burn in should be better yet.  Piano has fast attack and sustain is good.
  


  
 This one is with flash to show inside tube better.


----------



## DecentLevi

Welcome, @Astral Abyss and @TraceStar from the last page! Looks like you're getting off to a wonderful start and are a good learner. We hope to hear more from you and your sound impressions.
  
 Those of you who are waiting on 6J5 Visseaux, I'm also looking forward to your impressions on the sound, and if you have any buzzing or not.


----------



## ericr

astral abyss said:


> I've been lurking in this thread for a while, secretly lusting over the Ember 2 and its tube rolling goodness.  I've had a Lyr 2 for almost a year now, so I'm no stranger to tube rolling, but it's always left me feeling like there's more out there I'm missing.  The Ember, with it's ridiculously huge tube selection, sounds awfully fun in comparison.  Also helps that I live about 80 miles from Garage1217 and can go pick it up personally if I want, and that he answers email questions almost immediately.  Seems like a great guy and a great amp.  Anyway, I'll be joining your ranks soon, as I'm getting the Ember 2 and 6SN7 adapter as a Christmas gift.
> 
> I've got a nice collection of 6DJ8/ECC88 and 6922/E88CC tubes to try in it, along with a Telefunken ECC83 and Tung-Sol 6SN7GT mouse ear.  Don't know if I'll take the plunge and get one of those dual tube adapters, but I love reading about all the crazy stuff you guys are doing with this amp.
> 
> I'm glad this thread has gotten more active lately and hope to hear about more of your tube rolling adventures.  I'm taking notes.




Once you get settled in with the Ember I would appreciate your impressions between it and the Lyr 2. I found the Ember a small but clear upgrade over my Asgard 2 but have never had the chance to try the Lyr or Lyr 2.


----------



## Astral Abyss

ericr said:


> Once you get settled in with the Ember I would appreciate your impressions between it and the Lyr 2. I found the Ember a small but clear upgrade over my Asgard 2 but have never had the chance to try the Lyr or Lyr 2.


 
  
 Well, my Ember will be connected to a Modi 2U.  My Lyr 2 is connected to a Bifrost Multibit.  But... I'm rather curious as well.  I may have to move it over for some A/B testing.  Thing is, would I use the same tubes in each amp or whichever I end up liking the best in each amp?  Kind of limited to 6DJ8/6922 in the Lyr 2 though.


----------



## HOWIE13

Here's my new babies:
  

  
  
 These Ken-Rad JAN-CKR-6C5 VT65's have a quintessentially warm tube sound- 'vinyl like' ease on the ear (without the clicks and pops of course), yet still detailed, controlled and neutral, in a wide sound stage. Compared to most other 6C5/6J5 types I've heard they don't have as deep a sound-stage, nor the same degree of crispness, but they are a delight to listen to if you like that special warmth reminiscent of the sound vinyl and tubes can bring. You ears will thank you!
 The only other thing I noticed is they take about 20 mins to reach their sweet spot-with the glass types I never really noticed much of a delay-maybe a metal thing, or maybe it's just these particular tubes.
 Can't compare to glass 6C5/6J5 K-R's as I don't have any, but compared to my 7193 FE set-up they have a better integrated sound, clearer in the lower mids, a bit less treble extension and a wider but not as deep a sound stage.
 They are also very cheap to buy and no buzz, hum or other nasties, though there is a bit of scratching when you turn the vol pot.(I bypass the input caps). 
 Still waiting for the metal RCA's to compare with my glass ones but my initial foray into metal tubes is definitely positive, except I miss the nocturnal glow.


----------



## HOWIE13

@connieflyer 
 WOW- I would love those as a Christmas present. You don't have to listen to them, just looking at them is a delight.


----------



## HOWIE13

astral abyss said:


> Well, my Ember will be connected to a Modi 2U.  My Lyr 2 is connected to a Bifrost Multibit.  But... I'm rather curious as well.  I may have to move it over for some A/B testing.  Thing is, would I use the same tubes in each amp or whichever I end up liking the best in each amp?  Kind of limited to 6DJ8/6922 in the Lyr 2 though.


 
 My friend has the Lyr and when he comes round I have to hide away all my Octals otherwise he gets all moody and jealous.


----------



## Tunkejazz

connieflyer said:


> Got a pair of Sylvania 6C5g's(shoulder type tube), got about 4 hours on these.  They are sounding great, mid range is very clear, treble is up there where it belongs and bassline if fine. As they burn in should be better yet.  Piano has fast attack and sustain is good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  


howie13 said:


> Here's my new babies:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Dam it!
 I am weak, I have tried to resist temptation (I really did!) but all this "look at my new babies" is killing me!
 Now I will have to order the adapter and a pair of those


----------



## HOWIE13

@Trace Star
 I have been looking for those nice Zeniths but prefer to buy as a pair and they are usually sold as singles. When I was a kid we used to have a Zenith radiogram, nice looks and good sound for its day too.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Dam it!
> I am weak, I have tried to resist temptation (I really did!) but all this "look at my new babies" is killing me!
> Now I will have to order the adapter and a pair of those


 
 Why deprive yourself!? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 There may be different types of Ken-Rads. These are 1943. They are warm and easy to listen to. If you prefer a more crisp and lively sound you may prefer some of the others in the thread.
 Have fun!


----------



## tommo21

I love these tubes...just put them in, but they're dead silent and have a wonderful soundstage.


----------



## DecentLevi

tommo21 said:


> I love these tubes...just put them in, but they're dead silent and have a wonderful soundstage.


 
 Congrats! 3rd person in a row to confirm the Visseaux 6J5 tubes are a marvel for the Ember. Go ahead and put on something rhythmic with hard hitting drums like EDM or pop, and you'll also hear how great the impact is too. But yes their strengths may be that immersive, coherent soundstage.
  
 You're lucky yours are silent though. Do you use a 3-prong power connection to the wall, and do you have any sort of special power supply for the ember?


----------



## tommo21

decentlevi said:


> Congrats! 3rd person in a row to confirm the Visseaux 6J5 tubes are a marvel for the Ember. Go ahead and put on something rhythmic with hard hitting drums like EDM or pop, and you'll also hear how great the impact is too. But yes their strengths may be that immersive, coherent soundstage.
> 
> You're lucky yours are silent though. Do you use a 3-prong power connection to the wall, and do you have any sort of special power supply for the ember?


 
 I have the standard powersupply with euro-plug(earthed).
  
 I've had more noise with other 6J5 tubes that I've tested and was a bit surprised these were so quiet.
  
 I have been picking up some EMI/RF (Wifi/ Cell Phone)noise in my office, but these tubes seem to be not picking this noise up. With other tubes the noise goes away if I shield them from one side with my hands. It might be the laptop tha'ts 30cm away that is emitting some noise.


----------



## HOWIE13

Pleased they have worked out well for you, Tommo.
 It looks as though our set-ups, mains supplies and other outside factors are the main reasons for our hums rather than the intrinsic design of the tubes.  My Visseaux are also silent but occasionally other tubes, including 7193's, 6SN7's and Noval 9 pins do have a bit of hum-mostly inaudible when the music is playing. Having good earthing definitely helps though. Personally, I find hiss much more intrusive and annoying but mercifully I haven't had any hissing from our many Octals (yet). To be fair most of my tubes don't hum either.
 I had a chance to listen to some metal RCA 6J5's, dated 1957. They are very different from my 1940's glass bottle ones. They are warmer, still nicely detailed though, with a sweet treble and decent bass. The sound stage is narrower, more like 6SN7's. They sound very good for solo piano and vocals, where a more intimate acoustic may be required. They won't suit my big stuff.
 Here's the thing though-absolutely no microphonics, noise, hum or buzz, even when I approach, wave my hands around and touch the tubes!


----------



## connieflyer

My Visseaux 6J5 tubes should be here this week, can't wait.  I was having issues with the 6C5's right channel would get noisy now and then. Found it to be the adapter-tube extender. Turned the tubes around and was able to eliminate the extender and tubes have no more issues.  Dead quiet.  The mirror finish on the lower section of the tubes are so shiny you can see my hand and camera in the image.


----------



## HOWIE13

@connieflyer
 Love those big silver feet!
 Glad you got that noise sorted out. I'm still waiting for the 6L5's too. 
 What we really need is for Jeremy to make a multi-socket version of Ember.


----------



## DecentLevi

Yeah ConnieFlyer, it looks better that angle. What name do you like to go by?
  
 I've always thought that would be interesting if there were a multi-socket version of the Ember too. But I'm talkin' multi-socket as in, say... 2 sets of 6J5, and 2-3 sets of 6SN7 tube sockets all at the same time, so that we could "flip a switch" to switch out on any of several installed tubes at any moment, rather than having to roll the tubes.


----------



## connieflyer

Don here, conniflyer refers to the Locheed Constellation I flew as crewmember back before you were born!  The problem with the muliti-multi adapter is we will need a lot more bracing for the desk, and much more room to balance all the tubes!  Should not be a problem for Jeremy, he has lots of free time, I am sure!


----------



## connieflyer

howie13 said:


> @connieflyer
> Love those big silver feet!
> Glad you got that noise sorted out. I'm still waiting for the 6L5's too.
> What we really need is for Jeremy to make a multi-socket version of Ember.


 

 Those big sliver feet are left over from my vinyl days.  Audio-Technica isolators, spring adjustable sitting on rubber suction type cups.  Had my turntable, (no choice at first) on a single shelf right over the subwoofer and the sylus never had a skip.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Those big sliver feet are left over from my vinyl days.  Audio-Technica isolators, spring adjustable sitting on rubber suction type cups.  Had my turntable, (no choice at first) on a single shelf right over the subwoofer and the sylus never had a skip.


 
 It's good you kept them and I would think they are still improving the sound for you.


----------



## connieflyer

When I was using the 7193's sliding the keyboard drawer or hitting the desk top caused noise,(microphonics) but after sticking these under them no more noises. They look a little large, but I am fine with the isolation, so looks are secondary.


----------



## Mechans1

I have enormous brass footers under my re-amp, which were made by a guy that goes by the name of "Eden Sound" .  His prices are/were very reasionable  and he would make the footersany way you preferred.  I had the footers topped with the screw that fit the pre.  I am not sure how to find him but a search should yield \something.
 On a completely different topic, I have come across a couple of random tubes I have  for reasons I can't emember.  The one in front of me right now is a metal jacket  RCA 6SJ7?  Can you use that? maybe but why given all the tubes I already own (waaay tooo many) that I know make beautiful music.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

What is the purpose of these monster/elaborate footers? Serious question


----------



## Mechans1

This is not a tube roll  question but... I have noted that some have changed the stock volume knob.  Have people also changed the actual volume pot. ?  This is first bit of kit as the brits say it, my first piece of Hi Fi gear that routinely has me dialing the vol to 12 o'clock and further. Is there another thread that discusses this sort thing. Does anyone know if you can get your Ember modded by Garage 1217 or do they do it elsewhere?
 BTW tonight's roll is the Spanish Madrid made Marconi 12AT7 and 12AU7s both have acquitted themselves quite well for fresh NOS tubes.  I am going to buy the ECC83 12AX7, which I got outbid on, from the dealer directly to complete the customary pre-amp 12 volt tubes.


----------



## connieflyer

Soundsgoodtome the footers are for isolation from vibrations.  I had problems with a microphonic 7193 tube and placing the amp on these footers eliminated the problem.
  
 Mechans1 if you go to your Ember pdf file and scroll down to jumper settings you will see you can change the gain from low to high gain, this will give you more control on the volumn pot.  I have not heard of anyone changing the pot itself.  Moving the jumper should do the trick, if not contact Jeremy and he will straighten it out for you.  The pdf is on the cd that came with the amp, if you do not have a cd you can download the pdf from the Garage1217 website.I enjoyed the 12at7's  more than the 12au7's or 12ax7's when I still used the 9 pin tubes.  When you get around to it, try the 6SN7'
 s with Jeremy's adapter.  I am using an adapter I got on Ebay, with dual 6L5g tubes now and prefer the larger soundstage and better all around sound.  This is of course my opinion but a few folks here on the forum are experimenting with this combo as well, also the 6C5, and 6J5's.


----------



## connieflyer

Howie13 just scored these NOS tubes,http://www.ebay.com/itm/291632458812.. figured I better have a backup set in case the Vill's don't get me where it counts.  Like these 6L5g's the best so far. The 6J5's I have are not sounding as good as the 6C5's but they may not be as good a tube as the others.  At this price I good not go wrong with new tubes matched that well.
 t


----------



## Mechans1

connieflyer said:


> Soundsgoodtome the footers are for isolation from vibrations.  I had problems with a microphonic 7193 tube and placing the amp on these footers eliminated the problem.
> 
> Mechans1 if you go to your Ember pdf file and scroll down to jumper settings you will see you can change the gain from low to high gain, this will give you more control on the volumn pot.  I have not heard of anyone changing the pot itself.  Moving the jumper should do the trick, if not contact Jeremy and he will straighten it out for you.  The pdf is on the cd that came with the amp, if you do not have a cd you can download the pdf from the Garage1217 website.I enjoyed the 12at7's  more than the 12au7's or 12ax7's when I still used the 9 pin tubes.  When you get around to it, try the 6SN7'
> s with Jeremy's adapter.  I am using an adapter I got on Ebay, with dual 6L5g tubes now and prefer the larger soundstage and better all around sound.  This is of course my opinion but a few folks here on the forum are experimenting with this combo as well, also the 6C5, and 6J5's.


 

 I thank you for your suggestions and knowledge.  I had totally forgotten the down loaded manual, but I will pursue the hand book in short order .  I was wondering what those r-low r-hi marking were for on the top cover.
 I have the Jeremy version of the 6SN7 converter, I am listening to a 6SN7W short bottle right now,  (Neil Young live Massey Hall 1971) delightful I tell you, just delightful , really quite sincerely highly recommend this album.
 Gla to hear your tube problems were fixed by your footers.  I don't need any right now but the Eden Sound "Fat Bastards" are incredible, if anyone need vibration isolation.


----------



## connieflyer

I need a little re-education every now and then, funny as soon as the key words are read or spoken, you get that "oh yeah!" moment.  The 6SN7's are great tubes, I have several, my favorite is the Ken-Rad black glass VT-231 from the early '40's.


----------



## connieflyer

Mechans1 is this where you got the footers ....http://edensoundaudio.com/?misoprostol-200-mcg-wikipedia.pptx


----------



## Mechans1

connieflyer said:


> Mechans1 is this where you got the footers ....http://edensoundaudio.com/?misoprostol-200-mcg-wikipedia.pptx


 

 Yes that is him- Great products and will customize  to suit your gear.


----------



## Tunkejazz

...interesting, Schiit released the Vali 2, which now can also roll tubes (it only needs one). It seems like a similar approach as most G1217. I wonder how it compares to the Garage line.

I am not thinking about giving it a shot though, I am set with amps for a long while


----------



## HOWIE13

For Ember 2 you can also make your own input attenuation modules with different resistors to suit your needs to completely fine tune the input levels. I'm hopeless with DIY but making these, with Jeremy's guidance, was easy.
 Thinking of the dual single triode tubes as a group I find, in general, they just open a window on the sound.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> ...interesting, Schiit released the Vali 2, which now can also roll tubes (it only needs one). It seems like a similar approach as most G1217. I wonder how it compares to the Garage line.
> 
> I am not thinking about giving it a shot though, I am set with amps for a long while


 
 From what I've read  they don't take 12V tubes and, I'm not completely sure, but I think Octals might work but are not recommended because of the heat generated, so they might be a bit of a let down for rolling compared to our G1217 range. Not as configurable, either. Having said that, they have a strong following.
 Vali 2 seems under powered compared to Ember for higher impedance cans (Lyr2 is better in this respect) and with a higher output impedance at high gain compared to Ember/Horizon.


----------



## Tunkejazz

howie13 said:


> From what I've read  they don't take 12V tubes and, I'm not completely sure, but I think Octals might work but are not recommended because of the heat generated, so they might be a bit of a let down for rolling compared to our G1217 range. Not as configurable, either. Having said that, they have a strong following.
> Vali 2 seems under powered compared to Ember for higher impedance cans (Lyr2 is better in this respect) and with a higher output impedance at high gain compared to Ember/Horizon.




Yeah, versatility is probably much better in the Garage options, but I had the Vali 1 and for the price it sounded very very good. The Ember was/is much better but also significantly more expensive.

I guess the comparison is with the lower end amps of the g1217 series.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Yeah, versatility is probably much better in the Garage options, but I had the Vali 1 and for the price it sounded very very good. The Ember was/is much better but also significantly more expensive.
> 
> I guess the comparison is with the lower end amps of the g1217 series.


 
 That comparison would be fascinating but there's a fundamental problem because of the much wider tube rolling possibilities of the Garage amps, which immediately puts the Schiits at a disadvantage.
 The nearest G1217 amp to the Vali 2, cost wise in the UK, is the Sunrise 3, an almost identical price. I don't have a Sunrise 3 but I have the less expensive Starlight.
 With judicious selection of op amps and tube rolling the Starlight can actually sound quite close to the Ember.
 For example, listening to some solo classical piano yesterday through SRH 840's, the Starlight with 4 opa 2227's and a Bad Boy sounded not too dissimilar to the Ember with an ECC88 60's Mullard.


----------



## richard51

what adapter i need for a 6L5 tube or a 6c5 tube ? i am interested in the 6j5 family also.... i wait for 2 metal  6j5 westinghouse tube now... i will order this adapter on ebay (below) because i already have the jeremy adapter for the 6sn7 family and this adapter is very well build and perfectly tight in the basic socket of the Ember... i figure it is more easy to remove another adapter if i place it in the first place in the jeremy 6sn7 adapter... and this will protect the basic socket of the amp.... hence i will order this one for the 6j5 :
  
 http://www.ebay.ca/itm/191530248252?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 For the 6L5 and 6C5 tubes what will be the necessary adapter?


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> what adapter i need for a 6L5 tube or a 6c5 tube ? i am interested in the 6j5 family also.... i wait for 2 metal  6j6 westinghouse tube now... i will order this adapter because i already have the jeremy adapter for the 6sn7 family and this adapter is very well build and perfectly tight in the basic socket of the Ember... i figure it is more easy to remove an anither adapter if i plca it in the first place in the jeremy 6sn7 adapter... and this will protect the basic socket of the amp.... hence i will order this one for the 6j5 :
> 
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/191530248252?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> For the 6L5 and 6C5 tubes what will be the necessary adapter?


 
 Same adapter does all those tubes.


----------



## richard51

howie13 said:


> Same adapter does all those tubes.


 

 ok thanks....


----------



## Mechans1

I unearthed a pair of Tung Sol 6SC7 black glass from my collection, not sure why I even own them.  I, can't see the plates but think they are flat not round, not sure though.  Has anyone tried the 6SC7?  If so, which adapter did you use.-?


----------



## Makiah S

tunkejazz said:


> ...interesting, Schiit released the Vali 2, which now can also roll tubes (it only needs one). It seems like a similar approach as most G1217. I wonder how it compares to the Garage line.
> 
> I am not thinking about giving it a shot though, I am set with amps for a long while


 
 I had the same question an I'm actually getting both a Vali 2 an Starlight amp for demo, I fully intended to see which I enjoy more
  
 Just looking at spec sheets, I'd have to say I like how customizable the Starlight 2 is compared to the Vali 2, either way I owned the orignal Vali an it sounded fanFreakingTastic, though soon enough I'll have an answer for you guys


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> That comparison would be fascinating but there's a fundamental problem because of the much wider tube rolling possibilities of the Garage amps, which immediately puts the Schiits at a disadvantage.
> The nearest G1217 amp to the Vali 2 cost wise, in the UK, is the Sunrise 3, an almost identical price. I don't have a Sunrise 3  but I have the less expensive Starlight.
> With judicious selection of op amps and tube rolling the Starlight can actually sound quite close to the Ember.
> For example, listening to some solo classical piano yesterday through SRH 840's, the Starlight with 4 opa 2227's and a Bad Boy sounded not too dissimilar to the Ember with an ECC88 60's Mullard.


 
 I have to say, I also like the Op amp rolling features too.  gettin PUMPED to give this amp a listen


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> I have to say, I also like the Op amp rolling features too.  gettin PUMPED to give this amp a listen


 
 The op amp rolling feature of Starlight is under appreciated on Forums-in fact it's hardly ever mentioned. Changing them contributes I reckon to up to about 20-30% of the sound quality, depending on the recording and cans, particularly to sound stage and presence. They are easy to mount into Dip-8's, very cheap to purchase and there are several to try (all listed in the Starlight Manual).
 However, the stock one is very good and provides an excellent basis for all the possible tube rolling you can do.
 Eagerly looking forward to your comparisons.


----------



## HOWIE13

mechans1 said:


> I unearthed a pair of Tung Sol 6SC7 black glass from my collection, not sure why I even own them.  I, can't see the plates but think they are flat not round, not sure though.  Has anyone tried the 6SC7?  If so, which adapter did you use.-?


 
 Did you ever play a guitar? These were used in Fender amps. I read they are double triodes which share one cathode. Best to ask Jeremy or Frans about compatibility. It's so nice to be able to rediscover these old tubes though.


----------



## Mechans1

howie13 said:


> Did you ever play a guitar? These were used in Fender amps. I read they are double triodes which share one cathode. Best to ask Jeremy or Frans about compatibility. It's so nice to be able to rediscover these old tubes though.


 

 At one point I played air guitar quite well,but gave it up about 45 years ago. No I never owned a Fender amp, might have bought them in a manic mindlessness though.  I also bought a lot of tubes in lots just to et one special tube.  I suppose I should sell them or perhaps use them with yet another adapter to play recorded guitar music.


----------



## connieflyer

As far as op amp rolling, I did that with my asus essense stx sound card, used all the favorites that they all raved about on the forum.  You know the drill, extreme bass upgrade, treble magically clear etc, the only difference I saw was just a very small change in sound, mostly smaller wallet.  Made a very small change, and found the designer of the card had the right idea in the first place.  As cheap apart as they are, I can not imagine Jeremy or Frans going as cheap as possible when they designed it to save a few cents on the parts at the expense of the amp.


----------



## CZ4A

mechans1 said:


> I unearthed a pair of Tung Sol 6SC7 black glass from my collection, not sure why I even own them.  I, can't see the plates but think they are flat not round, not sure though.  Has anyone tried the 6SC7?  If so, which adapter did you use.-?


 

 The 6SC7 is a predecessor of the 6SL7 and the successor of the 6C8G. Same gain factor of 70. However, the pin-out appears to be different (http://vintageamps.com/plexiboard/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=100244) so you will need to buy or build an adapter.
  
 EDIT: 6C8G has a mu of 36, not 70. My bad.


----------



## Mechans1

cz4a said:


> The 6SC7 is a predecessor of the 6SL7 and the successor of the 6C8G. Same gain factor of 70. However, the pin-out appears to be different (http://vintageamps.com/plexiboard/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=100244) so you will need to buy or build an adapter.


 

 I appreciate the information.  These tubes are part of a group that I never use and thought I never would.  Given all the complications in making them useful for my purposes -playback only- I will sell them if they have value to others like the Fender Amp guys or just put them back in the tubes I don't use collection.
 Really many thanks for the info, I will have to see how the auctions go in order to price them, BTW always fairly with me I believe.


----------



## Mechans1

I have looked into the situation with these tubes.  There is a Metal can version by RCA and this black glass version by Tung Sol.  There may be others but I didn't see them for sale.  The TS are  round plates and I found that true in the pair I have.  There is an apparently a strong demand given the asking prices.  But I always caution others that you can ask whatever you want, the important number is the amount you actually get.
 It appears that some are trying this tube instead of the 6SL7 but the pin out is indeed different.  I will try to test these micanol based tubes and sell or trade them.
 Thanks again for you help.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> As far as op amp rolling, I did that with my asus essense stx sound card, used all the favorites that they all raved about on the forum.  You know the drill, extreme bass upgrade, treble magically clear etc, the only difference I saw was just a very small change in sound, mostly smaller wallet.  Made a very small change, and found the designer of the card had the right idea in the first place.  As cheap apart as they are, I can not imagine Jeremy or Frans going as cheap as possible when they designed it to save a few cents on the parts at the expense of the amp.


 
 I think Frans and Jeremy originally designed the Starlight with the intention of easy op amp rolling.
 The stock ones supplied in my Starlight are LM 4562 @ £1.76 each. The half dozen or so compatible ones I've tried range from £0.50 to £4.48 each. You need either 2 or 4, depending on how you want to configure the Starlight. 4 gives more power. I totally agree they don't make as much difference to the sound as diverse tubes, but they do make some difference in Starlight. 
 The two extremes were the stock ones which give a more warm glowing deeper sound stage, with lots of ambience, and the OPA 2134 which narrows the sound to provide more accurate imaging and instrument placement. None of the ones I tried sounded bad in the way some tubes can do, just somewhat different. No hums or buzzing either.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Having said that it's not possible to appreciate some of these changes if the recording or cans are not designed for the purpose. Cooler cans like the 701's won't be made warm and bassy, nor will the X1 or 650 be changed into cool sounding pin-point imaging monsters with a change of Starlight op amp. Some of those claims you quote that people made about your sound card do seem unrealistic.
 Hope your Visseaux come this week-my 6L5's are stuck at Heathrow.


----------



## CZ4A

Question for the thread: What were the changes made between the Ember 1 and Ember 2? I may have an opportunity to pick up a used Ember 1.


----------



## Tunkejazz

cz4a said:


> Question for the thread: What were the changes made between the Ember 1 and Ember 2? I may have an opportunity to pick up a used Ember 1.


 
 Look at this post written by one of the designers of the amp:
 http://diyah.boards.net/post/17179
  
 ...of which I would emphasize:
_The only reasons why one may want to 'convert' an Ember-I to Ember-II functionality (or want to upgrade to Ember-II) are:
 Wanting to use >500mA heater tubes. (but simply installing a supercharger fixes that)
 Or are bothered by the scratchy pot (ONLY during volumne adjustment, NOT when stationary)
 Or when you want the RCA out to disconnect when a headphone is inserted (when doubling as a pre-amp for instance).

 Soundwise they are completely tube dependent and with Supercharger or Ember-II you simply have more tube choices (those with higher heater currents)._


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> The op amp rolling feature of Starlight is under appreciated on Forums-in fact it's hardly ever mentioned. Changing them contributes I reckon to up to about 20-30% of the sound quality, depending on the recording and cans, particularly to sound stage and presence. They are easy to mount into Dip-8's, very cheap to purchase and there are several to try (all listed in the Starlight Manual).
> However, the stock one is very good and provides an excellent basis for all the possible tube rolling you can do.
> Eagerly looking forward to your comparisons.


 
  
  


connieflyer said:


> As far as op amp rolling, I did that with my asus essense stx sound card, used all the favorites that they all raved about on the forum.  You know the drill, extreme bass upgrade, treble magically clear etc, the only difference I saw was just a very small change in sound, mostly smaller wallet.  Made a very small change, and found the designer of the card had the right idea in the first place.  As cheap apart as they are, I can not imagine Jeremy or Frans going as cheap as possible when they designed it to save a few cents on the parts at the expense of the amp.


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> I think Frans and Jeremy originally designed the Starlight with the intention of easy op amp rolling.
> The stock ones supplied in my Starlight are LM 4562 @ £1.76 each. The half dozen or so compatible ones I've tried range from £0.50 to £4.48 each. You need either 2 or 4, depending on how you want to configure the Starlight. 4 gives more power. I totally agree they don't make as much difference to the sound as diverse tubes, but they do make some difference in Starlight.
> The two extremes were the stock ones which give a more warm glowing deeper sound stage, with lots of ambience, and the OPA 2134 which narrows the sound to provide more accurate imaging and instrument placement. None of the ones I tried sounded bad in the way some tubes can do, just somewhat different. No hums or buzzing either.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Well I own an iBasso PB2 which features OP amp rolling an frankly it was fun trying them out, though sound stage was the biggest improvement that an instrument seperation, I used LME 49990 in my PB2, I might try an see if I can swap a fem of em into the Starlight, though I might try the OPAs to get a more accurate presentation, depth is useless imo without good spatial cues


----------



## CZ4A

tunkejazz said:


> Look at this post written by one of the designers of the amp:
> http://diyah.boards.net/post/17179
> 
> ...of which I would emphasize:
> ...


 

 Cool, thanks for the info!


----------



## connieflyer

Howie13, still no Visseaux tubes, they were shipped but he did not include, use tracking number, they went out Royal Mail,
   Estimated delivery *Fri, Dec 11 - Mon, Dec 21 is all I have.  Getting impatient.  Don't understand why no tracking number, even the adapters I get from China have a tracking number.  Feedback for sale will include that concern, after I make sure they work.*


----------



## DecentLevi

As I have recently observed, freight companies are starting to wildly mark up costs for tracking service, thereby adding a big premium to a product. But not to worry, if your Visseaux 6J5's are coming from that English seller to the US, mine arrived faster than expected.


----------



## connieflyer

I am about mid-range in time wait so wait another week and see.


----------



## richard51

i just kill someone today to inherit the money to buy 4 visseaux tubes ....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 2 are not enough for me if they are so good..
  
 By the way the postman had delivered 2 westinghouse metal 6j5 tubes....But poor fool i am. i had not order the adapter ... i will in few hours...


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Howie13, still no Visseaux tubes, they were shipped but he did not include, use tracking number, they went out Royal Mail,
> Estimated delivery *Fri, Dec 11 - Mon, Dec 21 is all I have.  Getting impatient.  Don't understand why no tracking number, even the adapters I get from China have a tracking number.  Feedback for sale will include that concern, after I make sure they work.*


 
 It's probably the Christmas parcel backlog that's the problem. Everything goes into meltdown in the UK around this time. My tubes are still in a warehouse in London. Dunno whether they have even cleared Customs yet-but I'm sure we will get to hear them eventually. Maybe Santa will deliver them on Christmas Eve


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> i just kill someone today to inherit the money to buy 4 visseaux tubes ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 OMG!!


----------



## HOWIE13

@Mshenay
 As far as Starlight goes. I would chose a tube you like first, then fine tune that sound by Op amp rolling. I tried changing both tube and op amps simultaneously and went mental over it. I also experimented with some op amps that were not on the recommended G1217 manual's list and got some horrid noises and was concerned I could damage the amp or op amp. I think there are several recommended in the manual though. I bought from Mouser (on Jeremy's recommendation).


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Howie13, still no Visseaux tubes, they were shipped but he did not include, use tracking number, they went out Royal Mail,
> Estimated delivery *Fri, Dec 11 - Mon, Dec 21 is all I have.  Getting impatient.  Don't understand why no tracking number, even the adapters I get from China have a tracking number.  Feedback for sale will include that concern, after I make sure they work.*


 
 Just another thought. You could email the seller and ask him for the Tracking Number. I think there should be one for international parcels. Just for peace of mind to find out where they are. USPS use Royal Mail for deliveries here so it's likely they will be in USPS hands once in the States.


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> @Mshenay
> As far as Starlight goes. I would chose a tube you like first, then fine tune that sound by Op amp rolling. I tried changing both tube and op amps simultaneously and went mental over it. I also experimented with some op amps that were not on the recommended G1217 manual's list and got some horrid noises and was concerned I could damage the amp or op amp. I think there are several recommended in the manual though. I bought from Mouser (on Jeremy's recommendation).


 
 More than likely that's what I'll do. If there are two included an one color wise they are listed as "warm an wide" an "cold an narrow" more than likely I'll go with a colder OpAmp an find an equally cold but very wide sounding tube
  
 Personally, I like the 12Ua7 RCA Clear Tops I had in my last hybrid but I want to try a TungSeoul, I've heard A LOT of positives about them


----------



## CZ4A

mshenay said:


> More than likely that's what I'll do. If there are two included an one color wise they are listed as "warm an wide" an "cold an narrow" more than likely I'll go with a colder OpAmp an find an equally cold but very wide sounding tube
> 
> Personally, I like the 12Ua7 RCA Clear Tops I had in my last hybrid but I want to try a TungSeoul, I've heard A LOT of positives about them


 
  
 IMHO you can't go wrong with most of the NOS Tung-Sols. They get expensive quickly, but I've scored some of the rarer ones within lots or for bargain prices at swap meets. It helps that the Sunrise is tolerant of used tubes. Any particular types you are looking at?


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> More than likely that's what I'll do. If there are two included an one color wise they are listed as "warm an wide" an "cold an narrow" more than likely I'll go with a colder OpAmp an find an equally cold but very wide sounding tube
> 
> Personally, I like the 12Ua7 RCA Clear Tops I had in my last hybrid but I want to try a TungSeoul, I've heard A LOT of positives about them


 
 The coolest OpAmp I tried was the OPA2134 but it was a bit too cool and bright for me and I've settled on the OPA2227 for the present, which gives very good imaging and detail while maintaining a realistic sound stage.
 The clear tops are nice tubes, and to my ears they are a bit on the warm side. Where I'm wanting clarity and imaging, but without ruthless detail, I find the Tesla and Tungsrams suit me well. 
 But hey-I shouldn't be spoiling all your rolling fun like this.


----------



## Makiah S

cz4a said:


> IMHO you can't go wrong with most of the NOS Tung-Sols. They get expensive quickly, but I've scored some of the rarer ones within lots or for bargain prices at swap meets. It helps that the Sunrise is tolerant of used tubes. Any particular types you are looking at?


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> The coolest OpAmp I tried was the OPA2134 but it was a bit too cool and bright for me and I've settled on the OPA2227 for the present, which gives very good imaging and detail while maintaining a realistic sound stage.
> The clear tops are nice tubes, and to my ears they are a bit on the warm side. Where I'm wanting clarity and imaging, but without ruthless detail, I find the Tesla and Tungsrams suit me well.
> But hey-I shouldn't be spoiling all your rolling fun like this.


 
 Well my Demo unit comes with some "extra" tubes so here's to hoping there's some nicer ones in there
  
 Though seeing as it's only a demo, I'm not sure how much I'd be investing into after market tubes, I'll have to see how I feel about it once the review is finished!


----------



## HOWIE13

cz4a said:


> IMHO you can't go wrong with most of the NOS Tung-Sols. They get expensive quickly, but I've scored some of the rarer ones within lots or for bargain prices at swap meets. It helps that the Sunrise is tolerant of used tubes. Any particular types you are looking at?


 
 My favourite high gain tube is a Tung-Sol 12AX7 Long Plate. Goes very loud yet sounds delicious, totally unforced and without nasty microphonics. 
 Also the Tung-Sol 6SN7 Round Plate is an exceptional tube too.


----------



## CZ4A

howie13 said:


> My favourite high gain tube is a Tung-Sol 12AX7 Long Plate. Goes very loud yet sounds delicious, totally unforced and without nasty microphonics.
> Also the Tung-Sol 6SN7 Round Plate is an exceptional tube too.


 

 Don't have any T-S 12AX7s, but I do have one of each round plate black glass tube: 6SN7GT, 12SN7GT, 6SU7GTY, and 6F8G. I have a whole bunch of other T-Ss including three black glass/black plate 12AU7s (one of my favorites) and a mouse ear 6SN7GT.


----------



## HOWIE13

I wish I had known more about them when I was collecting tubes more avidly a year or two ago. Tung-Sol is not as well known in the UK as most other tube manufacturers and I only came across them late in the day. I luckily also have the mouse ears and a pair of 6SN7GT (40's) which are my power tubes in a Little Dot 2/2. They sound far better than the stock tubes in the LD.


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> My favourite high gain tube is a Tung-Sol 12AX7 Long Plate. Goes very loud yet sounds delicious, totally unforced and without nasty microphonics.
> Also the Tung-Sol 6SN7 Round Plate is an exceptional tube too.


 
 Oh man an only $159.99 ;3


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> Oh man an only $159.99 ;3


 
 Gosh-I've never spent that much on a tube. From memory I picked up my 12AX7 for about $40 and the Round Plate for about $50. I have a feeling the seller didn't recognise the Round Plate for what it was.


----------



## CZ4A

howie13 said:


> Gosh-I've never spent that much on a tube. From memory I picked up my 12AX7 for about $40 and the Round Plate for about $50. I have a feeling the seller didn't recognise the Round Plate for what it was.


 
  
_Au contraire_, the seller is all too aware of what he has, and he's going to milk the hell out of it. RPBG prices have gone through the roof on fleaBay. I was lucky to find my 6v and 12v RPBG in a box of about 30 assorted 6SN7s/12SN7s for $45. Got a few other good ones in that haul like a National Union gray glass and a Sylvania Bad Boy and angled-plate 6SN7GTA.
  
 T-S 12BH7As and mouse ear 6SN7s are good-sounding tubes and still go for reasonable prices.


----------



## HOWIE13

cz4a said:


> _Au contraire_, the seller is all too aware of what he has, and he's going to milk the hell out of it. RPBG prices have gone through the roof on fleaBay. I was lucky to find my 6v and 12v RPBG in a box of about 30 assorted 6SN7s/12SN7s for $45. Got a few other good ones in that haul like a National Union gray glass and a Sylvania Bad Boy and angled-plate 6SN7GTA.
> 
> T-S 12BH7As and mouse ear 6SN7s are good-sounding tubes and still go for reasonable prices.


 
 Well you are right, the seller will always want to make as big a profit as possible. Just look at the scams around ' Bad Boys'. However, just occasionally you can find a genuine bargain.
 I think I got my T-S RP from an Italian seller who may not at the time have recognised the tube. That's the main hope when the seller isn't a regular tube dealer. All part of the fun-and frustration.


----------



## Mechans1

There is also a Tung Sol 6SN7 GT I believe it's a GT, that has box square gray plates, it has a relatively tall glass body. This tube sounds quite good but has no following or recognition like the 'mouse ear' variant or the black glass round plate of course.
 I have found among the higher gain tubes that the 5751 is very good.  The one I really like is the Raytheon windmill getter 5751.  I haven't tried any 12 volt octals as yet, nor some of the famous higher gain 6 volt octals .  I own 6SL7s like the Tung Sol 6SU7, and could try a 12volt SN7 like the bottom gettered Sylvania which I own and have never used. More experimenting is in my future.


----------



## Makiah S

mechans1 said:


> There is also a Tung Sol 6SN7 GT I believe it's a GT, that has box square gray plates, it has a relatively tall glass body. This tube sounds quite good but has no following or recognition like the 'mouse ear' variant or the black glass round plate of course.
> I have found among the higher gain tubes that the 5751 is very good.  The one I really like is the Raytheon windmill getter 5751.  I haven't tried any 12 volt octals as yet, nor some of the famous higher gain 6 volt octals .  I own 6SL7s like the Tung Sol 6SU7, and could try a 12volt SN7 like the bottom gettered Sylvania which I own and have never used. More experimenting is in my future.


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> Well you are right, the seller will always want to make as big a profit as possible. Just look at the scams around ' Bad Boys'. However, just occasionally you can find a genuine bargain.
> I think I got my T-S RP from an Italian seller who may not at the time have recognised the tube. That's the main hope when the seller isn't a regular tube dealer. All part of the fun-and frustration.


 
  
  


cz4a said:


> _Au contraire_, the seller is all too aware of what he has, and he's going to milk the hell out of it. RPBG prices have gone through the roof on fleaBay. I was lucky to find my 6v and 12v RPBG in a box of about 30 assorted 6SN7s/12SN7s for $45. Got a few other good ones in that haul like a National Union gray glass and a Sylvania Bad Boy and angled-plate 6SN7GTA.
> 
> T-S 12BH7As and mouse ear 6SN7s are good-sounding tubes and still go for reasonable prices.


 
 I like that, get a random box of a bunch of tubes an have a go at it! kinda like collecting Pokemon Cards back in the day, get a pack an hope you get something good! 
  
 Hmm I'm starting to dig the idea of collecting an rolling tubes!


----------



## HOWIE13

mechans1 said:


> There is also a Tung Sol 6SN7 GT I believe it's a GT, that has box square gray plates, it has a relatively tall glass body. This tube sounds quite good but has no following or recognition like the 'mouse ear' variant or the black glass round plate of course.
> I have found among the higher gain tubes that the 5751 is very good.  The one I really like is the Raytheon windmill getter 5751.  I haven't tried any 12 volt octals as yet, nor some of the famous higher gain 6 volt octals .  I own 6SL7s like the Tung Sol 6SU7, and could try a 12volt SN7 like the bottom gettered Sylvania which I own and have never used. More experimenting is in my future.


 
 I think the Solstice can use the 12SN7's. I believe they are cheaper than 6SN7's and have similar sound, tube for tube. I like the 'mouse ears'- they are quite smooth sounding, warm/neutral and do look kind of cute. Don't exactly know what those 'ears' do though.


----------



## CZ4A

mechans1 said:


> There is also a Tung Sol 6SN7 GT I believe it's a GT, that has box square gray plates, it has a relatively tall glass body. This tube sounds quite good but has no following or recognition like the 'mouse ear' variant or the black glass round plate of course... I own 6SL7s like the Tung Sol 6SU7...


 
 IIRC, the T-plate 6SN7GT is the same as the mouse ears, except without the ears and even sounds the same. I may have one... time to experiment...
  
 The 6SU7GTY is an excellent-sounding tube, probably one of the best of the 6SL7s. Detailed, balanced, and smooth. My single one is microphonic, but then again, all of my 6SL7 family tubes are!
  


mshenay said:


> I like that, get a random box of a bunch of tubes an have a go at it! kinda like collecting Pokemon Cards back in the day, get a pack an hope you get something good!
> 
> Hmm I'm starting to dig the idea of collecting an rolling tubes!


 
 I've bought a few of singletons and sets on eBay and the Flea at MIT, but the majority of my good tubes I found on Craigslist mixed into lots. Some sellers will let you pick, some won't. I don't buy big lots because I don't have the time or space to house all the tubes I'm not going to use. There are a couple of companies nearby me that will accept lots for resale so I have an out for the tubes I can't use or don't think I can sell (mainly TV vacuum tubes).


----------



## Makiah S

cz4a said:


> IIRC, the T-plate 6SN7GT is the same as the mouse ears, except without the ears and even sounds the same. I may have one... time to experiment...
> 
> The 6SU7GTY is an excellent-sounding tube, probably one of the best of the 6SL7s. Detailed, balanced, and smooth. My single one is microphonic, but then again, all of my 6SL7 family tubes are!
> 
> I've bought a few of singletons and sets on eBay and the Flea at MIT, but the majority of my good tubes I found on Craigslist mixed into lots. Some sellers will let you pick, some won't. I don't buy big lots because I don't have the time or space to house all the tubes I'm not going to use. There are a couple of companies nearby me that will accept lots for resale so I have an out for the tubes I can't use or don't think I can sell (mainly TV vacuum tubes).


 
 hmmm this'll be a fun hobby indeed, an I have a little bit of room to store some tubes


----------



## tonykaz

Hey, all y'all Garage1217 hobbyists,
  
 Schiit just launched a little Tube Roller Vali 2.
  
 Are you guys buying it?
  
 Tony in Michigan
  
 ps.   This world of your's looks interesting and kinda fun.  This might be a nice hobby all by itself!


----------



## Makiah S

tonykaz said:


> Hey, all y'all Garage1217 hobbyists,
> 
> Schiit just launched a little Tube Roller Vali 2.
> 
> ...


 
 I've got both a Starlight an Vali 2 in bound to me for a demo! An yea owning tube amps are their own hobby! Buying trying an collecting tubes is kinda fun, I did it when I First got my DT 880


----------



## Mechans1

I  guess the amp that has the lowest price will have an advantage in this matchup .  The coolest amp with the most options and gets better reviews will come into play here as well.  I am personally a buyer who doesn't sell much. I might buy a Schiit and add it to the growing collection. I really should sell some of tubes for instance I have about 30 Ws, it is ridiculous!
 On a completely different  direction I tried out a holy grail sort of anyway, a Mullard  ECC33 in original box and wrapping materials but clearly used.  I thought my very fresh looking CKR VT-231 was better.  I will elaborate on that later, it's sleepy time.


----------



## DecentLevi

OK guys this is just far too good to keep it to myself - I feel I have a duty to share this with you fellow Ember enthusiasts. There is another tube amp on the block - another amp from a little known company, which also has never had any negative things said of it. A tube amp which design was chanced upon by two MOT's crossing paths if I understand correctly; one that is only a few hundred more than the Ember, but from the hyper-innovative fellow tube rollers on another thread, have been able to take this amp to stratospheric new heights - to the realm of summit-fi and even better than the perfect 10/10 given to it by a fellow member, of which was already good enough to bring people to tears. A tube amp to which one of the users basically said it doesn't even compare to the likes of his LC... without further ado, introducing the *Elise from Feliks Audio*. Here are a few best-of posts:

 * One of the best posts I've ever been lucky enough to read (expired thread)
 * *Recent impressions on tube rolling (this is the current thread)*
 * Review that was just on the front page of HF
 * Indirect comparisons to other amps
  
 My point is not to derail this thread, but do give some of you a peak into the other side of what tube amps can be. I also have not tried it yet (but am sure to buy it), but after reading hundreds of pages over the past few months on it, can say that it is without a doubt a world class performer, to say the least - and on the links above you can read or PM with people who have tried it. So* I won't be responding to questions about it here - if anything please post on the thread above.* Oh also the users there are super friendly.
  
 Now as for this thread - back to *Ember *tube rolling!


----------



## Mechans1

I read the nascent Elise thread before Feliks or the Elise name was even settled .  It took a while to develop and I somehow lost track of it.  I am surprised you think so highly of such  a well worn design, namely a 6SN7 into two 6AS7G or 6080, or... you know the drill. What makes it magic to you maybe just using the right parts available to the make it., I don't know.  The Idea was to keep cost down I recall and doing that is always a tricky matter, save a few bucks on this, and that component and you get what you pay for.  Apparently they have made the Elise a good amp and controlled costs.... but only compared to similar products.
 The difference is that the Elise and it's many forefathers use a tube out put whereas the Ember uses solid state.  There is an important difference in committing to that design.  I don't doubt your enthusiasm for the Elise's tube power out put, but It is inherently more expensive, isn't a few hundred more dollars to this audience important.  Look at the price of the Schiit competing product, just released that will compete with the Ember. The Elise is a major step up, price point wise.


----------



## HOWIE13

mechans1 said:


> I read the nascent Elise thread before Feliks or the Elise name was even settled .  It took a while to develop and I somehow lost track of it.  I am surprised you think so highly of such  a well worn design, namely a 6SN7 into two 6AS7G or 6080, or... you know the drill. What makes it magic to you maybe just using the right parts available to the make it., I don't know.  The Idea was to keep cost down I recall and doing that is always a tricky matter, save a few bucks on this, and that component and you get what you pay for.  Apparently they have made the Elise a good amp and controlled costs.... but only compared to similar products.
> The difference is that the Elise and it's many forefathers use a tube out put whereas the Ember uses solid state.  There is an important difference in committing to that design.  I don't doubt your enthusiasm for the Elise's tube power out put, but It is inherently more expensive, isn't a few hundred more dollars to this audience important.  Look at the price of the Schiit competing product, just released that will compete with the Ember. The Elise is a major step up, price point wise.


 
 That's true and I know specs don't mean everything but I doubt if the quoted max output power of 200mW, coupled with an apparently non-configurable output impedance of 50 ohms would do much for me-  at least not to the extent of the gross hyperbole written about this amp on other Forums.


----------



## HOWIE13

As DecentLevi suggests, back to Ember tube rolling.
  
 Here's two more for the G1217 tube 'bank' from RCA which I've had a short listen to.(Apologies if I've missed them being discussed elsewhere with G1217)
  
 No 'spiritual journeys' with these but they are both nice tubes. The first is a 6F8G, it's amplification factor is about 20 and is smooth and relaxing. It tames my K701's bright highs better than any other tube I can remember, and, as a result, the can sounds almost neutral and is non-fatiguing, yet it retains its lively character. It's too warm to my ears for the HD650, but it still sounds very pleasant with a sound-stage between F-E and 6SN7's, as a rough guide.
  
  

  
  
 The second is a higher gain tube, 6C8G with an amplification quoted as 36, but nearer 31 on my tester, so it's closer to the 6DJ8's.  It's more detailed than the 6F8G and works well with the HD650. Clear, strong and quite vibrant. Sound stage similar to the 6F8G.
 I couldn't detect any hum, buzz or hiss with either tube using these two cans. The vol pot scratches somewhat when you turn it with the higher gain tube unless you invoke the input caps.
  
 I could see myself using the 6F8G for bright strings with the AKG and the 6C8G might be useful where more use of the vol pot might be required for harder to drive cans-but they are not revolutionary tubes compared to those we already know about.
 They are also reasonably priced but you need the adapter. Got mine from the usual reliable Chinese seller, I think about £10..
  
  

  
 Maybe we should hold a competition to name this set-up.  'Half a Franken Ember', that's too boring, maybe 'Semifranken Ember'- any ideas?


----------



## Makiah S

mechans1 said:


> I  guess the amp that has the lowest price will have an advantage in this matchup .  The coolest amp with the most options and gets better reviews will come into play here as well.  I am personally a buyer who doesn't sell much. I might buy a Schiit and add it to the growing collection. I really should sell some of tubes for instance I have about 30 Ws, it is ridiculous!
> On a completely different  direction I tried out a holy grail sort of anyway, a Mullard  ECC33 in original box and wrapping materials but clearly used.  I thought my very fresh looking CKR VT-231 was better.  I will elaborate on that later, it's sleepy time.


 
  
  


decentlevi said:


> OK guys this is just far too good to keep it to myself - I feel I have a duty to share this with you fellow Ember enthusiasts. There is another tube amp on the block - another amp from a little known company, which also has never had any negative things said of it. A tube amp which design was chanced upon by two MOT's crossing paths if I understand correctly; one that is only a few hundred more than the Ember, but from the hyper-innovative fellow tube rollers on another thread, have been able to take this amp to stratospheric new heights - to the realm of summit-fi and even better than the perfect 10/10 given to it by a fellow member, of which was already good enough to bring people to tears. A tube amp to which one of the users basically said it doesn't even compare to the likes of his LC... without further ado, introducing the *Elise from Feliks Audio*. Here are a few best-of posts:
> 
> * One of the best posts I've ever been lucky enough to read (expired thread)
> * *Recent impressions on tube rolling (this is the current thread)*
> ...


 
  
 Honestly you just pointlessly derailed this thread, there is no comparison for a $649 OTL Tube amp to a $300 Hybrid Tube amp, they are two different amps all together an one is double the price of the other, I appreciate your chimming in but were not interested in discussing that here 


mechans1 said:


> I read the nascent Elise thread before Feliks or the Elise name was even settled .  It took a while to develop and I somehow lost track of it.  I am surprised you think so highly of such  a well worn design, namely a 6SN7 into two 6AS7G or 6080, or... you know the drill. What makes it magic to you maybe just using the right parts available to the make it., I don't know.  The Idea was to keep cost down I recall and doing that is always a tricky matter, save a few bucks on this, and that component and you get what you pay for.  Apparently they have made the Elise a good amp and controlled costs.... but only compared to similar products.
> The difference is that the Elise and it's many forefathers use a tube out put whereas the Ember uses solid state.  There is an important difference in committing to that design.  I don't doubt your enthusiasm for the Elise's tube power out put, but It is inherently more expensive, isn't a few hundred more dollars to this audience important.  Look at the price of the Schiit competing product, just released that will compete with the Ember. The Elise is a major step up, price point wise.


 
 Exactly, it's a little pointless to compare a tube at $649 to those that are around $200/300 respectively, $649 is nearly double the price. Mechans1 makes a great point an this thread is for hybrid tubes


----------



## Astral Abyss

howie13 said:


> Maybe we should hold a competition to name this set-up.  'Half a Franken Ember', that's too boring, maybe 'Semifranken Ember'- any ideas?


 
  
 What about something simple like Franken Jr.?


----------



## HOWIE13

astral abyss said:


> What about something simple like Franken Jr.?


 
 I like that better than my suggestions.


----------



## connieflyer

I would vote for Jr as well, good idea.  Earlier I was interested int eh Elise and followed it from the start of the forum.  I was getting ready to pull the trigger on one, when I though I had a few more things I should try with the Ember.  Glad I did, using dual tubes, especially the 6l5,s so far keep me in the Garage stable.  Not that the Elise is a bad option, but at twice the price and four tubes to roll, prices rise in a hurry.  Ok Howie13, you HAVE to stop temping my wallet, have you tried the 6l5's yet, my Villes, still no sign of, contacted seller and he said royal mail does not offer tracking, funny I can get tracking at lower price on adapters from China, than Britain, and faster service besides.  He has four more days, and then going to ask for refund.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> I would vote for Jr as well, good idea.  Earlier I was interested int eh Elise and followed it from the start of the forum.  I was getting ready to pull the trigger on one, when I though I had a few more things I should try with the Ember.  Glad I did, using dual tubes, especially the 6l5,s so far keep me in the Garage stable.  Not that the Elise is a bad option, but at twice the price and four tubes to roll, prices rise in a hurry.  Ok Howie13, you HAVE to stop temping my wallet, have you tried the 6l5's yet, my Villes, still no sign of, contacted seller and he said royal mail does not offer tracking, funny I can get tracking at lower price on adapters from China, than Britain, and faster service besides.  He has four more days, and then going to ask for refund.


 
 That's such a shame. Well better news here, they are hopefully being delivered today or tomorrow- but not by the most reliable carrier and I'm away all day tomorrow so I have been waiting in for the possible delivery. 
 If they come I will certainly check them out and post before I go off tomorrow.
 Keeping fingers crossed for your Visseaux.  It may just be hold ups in US Customs.


----------



## CZ4A

howie13 said:


> As DecentLevi suggests, back to Ember tube rolling.
> 
> Here's two more for the G1217 tube 'bank' from RCA which I've had a short listen to.(Apologies if I've missed them being discussed elsewhere with G1217)
> 
> ...


 
  
 Did you use a 6F8G to 6DJ8 adapter or 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter? I still can't help but wonder if the 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter I am using in my Sunrise is contributing to the buzzing I get.
  
 I have a RCA 6F8G (gray glass) and it is very mellow. Maybe a little too mellow for my normal (\m/ >_< \m/) listening, but would be a good pairing with more relaxing music. I I haven't really given my other 6F8Gs and 6C8Gs a good, critical listen since I started troubleshooting the buzzing I was getting, but in broad terms the Sylvania 6C8G is lively and the Raytheon 6F8G has some of the punchiest bass I've heard in a tube.


----------



## sneaky415

howie13 said:


> The second is a higher gain tube, 6C8G with an amplification quoted as 36, but nearer 31 on my tester, so it's closer to the 6DJ8's.  It's more detailed than the 6F8G and works well with the HD650. Clear, strong and quite vibrant. Sound stage similar to the 6F8G.
> I couldn't detect any hum, buzz or hiss with either tube using these two cans. The vol pot scratches somewhat when you turn it with the higher gain tube unless you invoke the input caps.
> 
> I could see myself using the 6F8G for bright strings with the AKG and the 6C8G might be useful where more use of the vol pot might be required for harder to drive cans-but they are not revolutionary tubes compared to those we already know about.


 
 I just came to the same conclusion yesterday. The strong 6C8G made the bass too powerful on my closed-backs but on the HD650 it sounds just about right. It was a revolution for me since it made me appreciate my HD650s for the first time, they have mostly been laying in a cupboard since I bought them. The 6C8G has a high noise floor but with the high impedance of HD650 it is not a problem.
  
  


decentlevi said:


> OK guys this is just far too good to keep it to myself - I feel I have a duty to share this with you fellow Ember enthusiasts. There is another tube amp on the block - another amp from a little known company, which also has never had any negative things said of it. A tube amp which design was chanced upon by two MOT's crossing paths if I understand correctly; one that is only a few hundred more than the Ember, but from the hyper-innovative fellow tube rollers on another thread, have been able to take this amp to stratospheric new heights - to the realm of summit-fi and even better than the perfect 10/10 given to it by a fellow member, of which was already good enough to bring people to tears. A tube amp to which one of the users basically said it doesn't even compare to the likes of his LC... without further ado, introducing the *Elise from Feliks Audio*. Here are a few best-of posts:


 
 Thanks for the tip. I am very happy with my Ember right now but I would still like to read a comparison.


----------



## HOWIE13

cz4a said:


> Did you use a 6F8G to 6DJ8 adapter or 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter? I still can't help but wonder if the 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter I am using in my Sunrise is contributing to the buzzing I get.
> 
> I have a RCA 6F8G (gray glass) and it is very mellow. Maybe a little too mellow for my normal (\m/ >_< \m/) listening, but would be a good pairing with more relaxing music. I I haven't really given my other 6F8Gs and 6C8Gs a good, critical listen since I started troubleshooting the buzzing I was getting, but in broad terms the Sylvania 6C8G is lively and the Raytheon 6F8G has some of the punchiest bass I've heard in a tube.


 
 That's exactly how the RCA came over to me with Ember. Relaxing and suited the K701 really well, but not the HD650.
 I will see if I can source one of those livelier tubes after Christmas, when I've got a bit more money to spend. I must admit after all the activity recently with dual single triodes it will be quite nice to only have to seek out one tube for a change.
 I quite like how they look too.
 As to the adapter, I use the 6DJ8 version. I would be sorely tempted to try a 6V one, just for the satisfaction of knowing, but I don't know if there's a theoretical reason why the higher voltage adapter might be more prone to produce hum.


----------



## Makiah S

connieflyer said:


> I would vote for Jr as well, good idea.  Earlier I was interested int eh Elise and followed it from the start of the forum.  I was getting ready to pull the trigger on one, when I though I had a few more things I should try with the Ember.  Glad I did, using dual tubes, especially the 6l5,s so far keep me in the Garage stable.  Not that the Elise is a bad option, but at twice the price and four tubes to roll, prices rise in a hurry.  Ok Howie13, you HAVE to stop temping my wallet, have you tried the 6l5's yet, my Villes, still no sign of, contacted seller and he said royal mail does not offer tracking, funny I can get tracking at lower price on adapters from China, than Britain, and faster service besides.  He has four more days, and then going to ask for refund.


 
 Sounds good! I've got the demo Starlight waiting at work for me now! I'll have it up an running tonight, it's not an ember but I'm excited either way!


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> I would vote for Jr as well, good idea.  Earlier I was interested int eh Elise and followed it from the start of the forum.  I was getting ready to pull the trigger on one, when I though I had a few more things I should try with the Ember.  Glad I did, using dual tubes, especially the 6l5,s so far keep me in the Garage stable.  Not that the Elise is a bad option, but at twice the price and four tubes to roll, prices rise in a hurry.  Ok Howie13, you HAVE to stop temping my wallet, have you tried the 6l5's yet, my Villes, still no sign of, contacted seller and he said royal mail does not offer tracking, funny I can get tracking at lower price on adapters from China, than Britain, and faster service besides.  He has four more days, and then going to ask for refund.


 
  
 6L5's ARRIVED!
  

  
 I really like them. Well spotted.
 They are rich and warm and the big holographic sound stage affords great instrumental detail, retaining rhythm and zest. I particularly like the way the deep 16Hz bass decays in a lingering fashion in a recording I have of Bach organ music- lovely effect- felt rather than heard at such a low level, and most realistic for the big resonant German cathedral acoustic.
 These will be very easy to live with and my first impression is they will suit most of my cans. 
 I will be fascinated to learn how you compare these to the Visseaux- they are a bit different to my ears (though none the worse for that), but I'd rather not tell you just now how I find them different as that would just spoil your fun. Of course it's pretty obvious from the previous posts anyway. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I do hope they come soon.


----------



## connieflyer

Hopefully they will come, but if they don't I still have a matched pair of 6L5G's that should be here in two days.  I am glad you liked the 6l5's, they will grow on you, I think.  Went back and tried the 7193's again and thought, gee, this sound pretty good, but after an hour or two put the 6l5's back.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Hopefully they will come, but if they don't I still have a matched pair of 6L5G's that should be here in two days.  I am glad you liked the 6l5's, they will grow on you, I think.  Went back and tried the 7193's again and thought, gee, this sound pretty good, but after an hour or two put the 6l5's back.


 
 I can understand the 6L5G's being very seductive. Very good tube and noiseless too.
 I may have underestimated  Franken Jr (aptly named by Astral Abyss) yesterday. Was listening to some piano with the 6F8G through the DT990's  I'm trying out. There were some seriously strong and sonorous bass chords deep down there. Highs are attenuated though, so won't suit a lot of situations, but I'm going to give this little guy some more listening time over the weekend. Hope today's post brings you good news.


----------



## TraceStar

I got my Raytheon 6L5Gs a few days back. It definitely has more bass compared to the Zenith 6J5s I've been using. I found that overall I like the 6J5 sound better so went back to it after a night. Overall I think something like clarity or instrument separation sounds a bit less on the 6L5G. That or I'm so used to less bass and it feels crowded to me when bass is good, since I never really had a tube with good bass before this.
   
 Quote:


howie13 said:


> I particularly like the way the deep 16Hz bass decays in a lingering fashion in a recording I have of Bach organ music- lovely effect- felt rather than heard at such a low level, and most realistic for the big resonant German cathedral acoustic.


 
  
 Funny thing is, I didn't realise this fact until I read your post @HOWIE13. I listened to Bach, Toccata and Fugue, after installing the 6L5Gs and reading the thread about Elise tube rolling. Someone mentioned this song so I just searched for it. Never tried the song when I changed back to 6J5s. Anyways, the 6J5 bass does decay faster. It doesn't linger as long as on the 6L5G. Now I have to give the tube a longer run LOL.


----------



## connieflyer

Well yesterday was a real red letter day, both the Visseaux 6j5's and the National Union 6L5's showed up.  What to do first?  Put in the Viss's first for about 4 hours, playing by them selves with the headphone unplugged and music playing through amp, then spent 3 hours listening to them last night.  Nice, very nice.  I can see what all the buzz was about.  So this morning but in the _6L5G  National, New-Old- Stock tubes, The (6L5) will sub for the (76) tube, 1961,  made in USA, both testing 2000 where 1500 is normal, matched pair, they will come in Orig white tube box, same code date (8-13) on both tubes, and they are contenders, need more time on them , but clear as a bell and full spectrum sound.  Have to wait for a few days to say which I like better, but I (think) I am done tube rolling with this amp.  Will be putting all my tubes except for a few 6l5's and 6j5's up for sale as a group. Not going to sell individually, someone else can benefit from my trigger finger on Ebay!._


----------



## Mechans1

You sound pleased with these tubes, did I read this wrong?
 You may be  very sorry if you find yourself wanting that sound back in the future.  I don't know if these tubes are rare and already expensive, or abundant and cheap.  I'm  betting on  rare side..
 Some tubes have already become endangered species  and others are just about extinct. . I tend keep excessive numbers of some tubes which have limited utility to me at the moment..    I should sell some though- I was just laughing at myself for having multiples of multiples of some really common stuff.(Sylvania 6SN7s)


----------



## connieflyer

I did the same thing, I found something I liked alot, and bought back-up for the back-ups, finally sold a bunch to Jeremy and took a credit and before you know it I got a black glass KEn-Rad 6SN7 231 with the credit!  The Viss's are staying I do like them alot, still trying to decide if I want another pair, these 6sl7's are good, the longer they burn in the better they are sounding.  And they have such a nice glow.  I was just listening to this.... and the cello and piano are fantastic on these.  Two pair of these should last me, may have to go for another pair of Viss's,  looked to see if they had any 6l5gt's but did not find any so will go for the 6j5's,   They sounded really good right out of the boxes.  Will put them in again tomorrow and see how they stack up, I am thinking they will be number one, 6SL5G's number two.  Thanks Howie13, my wallet hates you but I appreciate you and your advice.  Merry Christmas!


----------



## DecentLevi

Glad you got your Visseaux's before the 'point of no return'. Yup I'm also thinking they would be my end game _for the Ember_, but still thinking of bigger amps down the line. I'd second that you may regret if you sell all your other tubes though, because at least for me, I still often still find myself swapping it for other 6SN7's when I desire a change of sound signature.


----------



## HOWIE13

Looks like an eventful and rewarding 24 hours for all you guys while I've been away in London. 
 Well it's truly satisfying that although we all have different sources, ears, brains and musical tastes we more or less agree on sound quality.
 I could happily live with just the 6J5's for music that needs lots of rhythm and drive and the 6L5's for a richer textured, warmly seductive sound. They are both so clear and sweet sounding-and that sound stage.....
 What's also really nice is to bring these single triodes out from near oblivion. Most of them have been, as far as I can tell, lying in storage for 60 odd years.
 I've been recommended another tube by a friend, but I'm not going there-at least not this year.


----------



## HOWIE13

mechans1 said:


> You sound pleased with these tubes, did I read this wrong?
> You may be  very sorry if you find yourself wanting that sound back in the future.  I don't know if these tubes are rare and already expensive, or abundant and cheap.  I'm  betting on  rare side..
> Some tubes have already become endangered species  and others are just about extinct. . I tend keep excessive numbers of some tubes which have limited utility to me at the moment..    I should sell some though- I was just laughing at myself for having multiples of multiples of some really common stuff.(Sylvania 6SN7s)


 
 Yes they generally sound good with Ember and it's similar with my Horizon and Starlight too. They are pretty reasonably priced, though Visseaux are more expensive-you need two though and an adapter. I think they are getting rarer since this thread started.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I hoard tubes too-never know if my ears or musical tastes or amps will change and require a different sound in the future. Mind you, I'm getting on a bit now-maybe I shouldn't worry too much about the future.


----------



## HOWIE13

tracestar said:


> I got my Raytheon 6L5Gs a few days back. It definitely has more bass compared to the Zenith 6J5s I've been using. I found that overall I like the 6J5 sound better so went back to it after a night. Overall I think something like clarity or instrument separation sounds a bit less on the 6L5G. That or I'm so used to less bass and it feels crowded to me when bass is good, since I never really had a tube with good bass before this.
> 
> Funny thing is, I didn't realise this fact until I read your post @HOWIE13. I listened to Bach, Toccata and Fugue, after installing the 6L5Gs and reading the thread about Elise tube rolling. Someone mentioned this song so I just searched for it. Never tried the song when I changed back to 6J5s. Anyways, the 6J5 bass does decay faster. It doesn't linger as long as on the 6L5G. Now I have to give the tube a longer run LOL.


 
 Yes, I find they are different that way and nicely compliment each other. With my musical tastes I can see myself using both. As far as tubes are concerned a 'one fits all' approach doesn't do for me.


----------



## tonykaz

Dear Mr.connieflyer and all y'all Ember folks I've been reading these last few days.  
  
 Earlier this year I had a look at a Bottlehead at the Ann Arbor headphone meet, I was impressed.  I was even more impressed with the Valhala 2 on which I was listening to various headphones.  I bought a pair of Audeze 8 Open based on that listen ( only to be disappointed later ).  I was having hearing issues from an explosion I was in close proximity to.  I subsequently had a ear examination at the UofM Medical facility to reveal and to correct, so much so that my home system of Asgard 2 - Sennheiser HD580s seem transformed into a great system.  
  I'm back looking at interesting gear.
 Atomicbob, in Seattle, displayed a Sunrise 3 at a Bottlehead Meet and caught my interest. I've ( since ) been sort-of following-along on tube rolling, which took me to this site and all the doings you lads have been up to.  It seems a Curious thing that I find these old tubes interesting, I can't imagine them able to outperform my solid-state gear yet I'm drawn to them, reading all these posts with the excitement of hunting down 6L5s from France seems a fascinating adventure. 
 So, I'm pondering the purchase of a Valhalla 2 or Garage1217 Ember or Sunrise or one of those Polish Amps.  
 My history began with Glass Tubes ( even WW11 metal tubes ), octal sockets and miniature tubes, building things, solder, volt meters and all that's involved with hobby electronics and sound.  I kinda wish I still had my RCA Tube manuals, maybe I'll find one on Ebay.
Anyway, I'm reading your mail, hope y'all don't mind.  You lads have me leaning in the Ember Direction.  I haven't contacted the Garage folks about anything, yet, although I do see them actively responding to folk's issues.  Seems like a nice outfit to buy products from.   
 I find it surprising that all these Tubes are still out there somewhere, finding their way onto Ebay and into interested parties hands for a useful life of playing music in this 21st Century after long decades of forgotten storage.   Amazing!
  
Tony in Michigan
  
ps.  going Tubes gives new meaning to the term "Old-School"


----------



## connieflyer

Welcome fellow Michigander, I have had quite a journey with the Ember, thought of leaving for a "bigger" better" amp a couple of times, then someone like Howie13 or DecentLevi come up with a new combination, try it and stay with the Ember.  The amp is very versatile well supported and plenty of folks here an around the forums for help or info.  Hard for one person to try everything, so it helps when there are alot of us that will throw down a few bucks to try something else with the Ember.  I have an Ember original number 042 so have been around abit, Got the supercharger installed, tried lots of the small 9pin tubes, like most of them, then Jeremy at 1217 builds an adapter to use 6sn7 tubes with it.  Had to buy one tried it and loved it. Then I got myself a black glass Ken-Rad 6SN7 VT231 and I was in heaven, about that time another member here comes up with the dual tube FrankenEmber (we name the builds to be able to refer to them) these use the 7193 tubes, look cool. then someone comes up with and adapter for 6j5's and the race is on again, some I believe it was Howie13 finds these French tubes Visseaux 6j5's and swears by them, at the same time I found the6L5gt's and these are smooth and holographic love em.  Decentlevi gets the Visseaux 6j5's and I weaken.  Just got those and I think they are probably the best of all I have heard.  The really nice thng with the Ember it can roll so many different tubes it gives you equipment a slightly different sound, flavor just changing the tubes.  the other equipment while it is good it does not have the versatiliy that the Ember has.  What ever you decide and enjoy the company.  Just missed you at Ann Arbor they just had a meet over by the zoo a few months back also.  Farmington is not far from them nice to hear before you buy.


----------



## connieflyer

Howie 13, these Visseaux 6j5's are really great with female vocals  try this one   Then try it wih a celtic harp
  
  
  
Catrin Finch looks a little roufh around the edges but looking at her face you can see the emotion.


----------



## tonykaz

Catrin Finch is wonderful, especially for Harp music lovers like me, yet I own only one of her Albums "Crossing the Stone". 
  
 This video prompts me to invest in her music, I kinda forgot about her, somehow.  
  
 She's Welch which explains her appearance, Indigenous Welch are a different breed, she does have amazing diction if you hear any of her interviews.  
  
 Good Stuff here.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## HOWIE13

tonykaz said:


> Catrin Finch is wonderful, especially for Harp music lovers like me, yet I own only one of her Albums "Crossing the Stone".
> 
> This video prompts me to invest in her music, I kinda forgot about her, somehow.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Tony and welcome too!
 Hope we can help in your quest for your ideal sound.
 G1217 is great to deal with-it's not like a commercial mass producing, profit orientated company. Jeremy and Frans do this because they are so enthusiastic about their hobby and when you purchase from them that's just the beginning-they continue to support you all the way on your personal musical appreciation journey. They are also very active on the DIYAH website for more general technical issues.
 Ember is so easy to use because it does everything for you-just push in the tube and everything is automated to obtain the best possible performance from a mind blowing variety of tubes. 
 I regularly holiday in Wales-the harp is their national musical instrument.


----------



## HOWIE13

@connieflyer
  
 'Howie 13, these Visseaux 6j5's are really great with female vocals  try this one'
  
 Thanks Connieflyer, that was a lovely way to start my day.
 Gorgeous music. It sounds excellent with both 6J5 and 6L5.  Pointless comparing the two- I just submerged myself into the atmosphere and the amp became superfluous to my consciousness.
 My daughter often stays with her friend who lives very close to where the sun is shining over the hill in the photo. It's only a very short flight from where we live in Scotland.


----------



## Tunkejazz

Guys I have got lost with so many tubes discussed. I may order the 6J5 adapter after Christmas. Besides the Visseaux, is there a concensus on the "second" best all-rounder for jazz, blues and rock?  the Visseaux are a bit steep.

I understood that the Pinnacle are good. What about those beauties that connieflyer showed some days ago (Sylvania?)?

Thanks!


----------



## amigastar

The Project Ember became so musical that i catch myself increasing the volume when listening to music.
 To me that's one of the biggest compliments for a musical device (automatically increasing volume because it's awesome)


----------



## connieflyer

Having used the Visseaux 6J5 now for a little while, the jury is still out as to whether it is worth the price.  It is an excellent tube for the Ember but the 6L5,s hold their own  here.  Like Howie13, I have a hard time saying which I enjoy more.  The first 6l5's I have are the Sylvania's and now just received my NOS National Union 6L5's from another supplier.  These were never used and a match to both date and tube measurements.  The Sylvania's were used, still had good stats, but were already burned in, so I will have to wait to see how the newer tubes burn in.  I picked up the newest pair for $16.50 for the pair and free shipping from Ebay, so they are a good place to start, if you want to go down that path.  The adapter was around $25.00, but you will have to have that for any of those tubes anyway.  The Viss's cost me a little over $100 with shipping for the pair.  So before I buy a backup pair, I want to be sure I like them that much. The Pinnacle are Russian and I think it depends on the factory from what I have read.


----------



## connieflyer

Howie 13  Try this to compare Vill's with Nat UNion and see if you prefer one over the other......


----------



## HOWIE13

'Try this to compare Vill's with Nat UNion and see if you prefer one over the other'
  
 Hi Don
 That sounds like one for later tonight with the lights dimmed. Will try both tubes and post in the early hours.
 Cheers.
 PS. Am looking forward to your comparison of the two 6l5's.


----------



## Mechans1

amigastar said:


> The Project Ember became so musical that i catch myself increasing the volume when listening to music.
> To me that's one of the biggest compliments for a musical device (automatically increasing volume because it's awesome)


 

 I am wondering about changing the  resistance on your amp? It think mine is r-low or whatever the default is possibly r- mid, to r-high.  That should also change  the gain.  The reason is that I am working the 12 o'clock region of the vol. pot and I assume the higher power down the line .  The problem would manifest as noise if you work the tube and other components harder than necessary. Has anybody found the best 'r' in your Ember?
 You know with that adapter you could use a wide range of triodes.  Anybody want to set up your Ember for dual 300Bs.


----------



## amigastar

mechans1 said:


> I am wondering about changing the  resistance on your amp? It think mine is r-low or whatever the default is possibly r- mid, to r-high.  That should also change  the gain.  The reason is that I am working the 12 o'clock region of the vol. pot and I assume the higher power down the line .  The problem would manifest as noise if you work the tube and other components harder than necessary. Has anybody found the best 'r' in your Ember?
> You know with that adapter you could use a wide range of triodes.  Anybody want to set up your Ember for dual 300Bs.


 
 Acutally what i wanted to say is that i already listening at a good loudness but the sound makes me wanna increase it to even more louder.
 I just think the pace, rythm and timing is awesome on this amp and the music reaches you immediate because it's so clear and not veiled, all this makes it so damn enjoyable.


----------



## Makiah S

Jeeze stock tube  on the Starlight KICKS some freaking SUB bass 
  
 listening with my TH X00 Alpha an holy crap, volume  knob can only go so high before the sub bass starts to get a little... distorted 
  
 running the TH X00 outa my PB2 an I get a nice clean Sub response, with no higher volume distortion 
  
 though my Bias Pots are... kinda going crazy lol, BOTH the High/Low LEDs are lighting up every time the bass drops [it's kinda funny to watch actually]


----------



## connieflyer

mechans1 said:


> I am wondering about changing the  resistance on your amp? It think mine is r-low or whatever the default is possibly r- mid, to r-high.  That should also change  the gain.  The reason is that I am working the 12 o'clock region of the vol. pot and I assume the higher power down the line .  The problem would manifest as noise if you work the tube and other components harder than necessary. Has anybody found the best 'r' in your Ember?
> You know with that adapter you could use a wide range of triodes.  Anybody want to set up your Ember for dual 300Bs.


 
 I think it is dependant on the headphone you use, mine is on low r using hd 650's.  You can change the setting without turning off the pwr, I did this to find the adjustment I liked best.  Settled on low R setting.


----------



## Makiah S

Here are some of my quick thoughts on the Schiit Vali 2 an the Project Starlight 
  
 the Starlight is POWERFUL, with stock tubes it adds a nice HEFT of sub bass, very SOLID low end the kind that REALLY makes the drums KICK, aside from that really powerful bass the mids an treble are fairly clean
  
 The Vali 2 is a little different, it's got a nice touch of warmth to the mid range, which dips into the mid bass just a touch, so you get thicker vocals an guitars an a very beautiful upper mid range as well! 
  
 Build quality though is better on the Starlight, in addition the starlight is also a blacker with a finer volume adjustment [oh an the Vali 2 TINKS when u plug ur headphones in] 
  
 both have good sound stage, with adequate depth, good layering an width how ever, I do find the Vali 2 to have a quick dynamic shift 
  
 So really :/ it's a tough call they are both excellent amps 
  
 Oh I will say there is SOME EDM that does NOT play well with the Starlight an the Th X00 xD bass get's like WHOA that's A LOT to quick


----------



## HOWIE13

howie13 said:


> 'Try this to compare Vill's with Nat UNion and see if you prefer one over the other'
> 
> Hi Don
> That sounds like one for later tonight with the lights dimmed. Will try both tubes and post in the early hours.
> ...


 
 Hi again Don.
 I very much enjoyed the music with both tubes through the HD650. The 6L5's give a great sense of the atmosphere, particularly at the beginning -wholly appropriate to the mood of the music. They also set the harp back a little in the sound stage, enhancing the presence of the live recording acoustic.
 When it came to the upper registers though the Visseaux provided spine-tingling  realism to the imaging and detail. For instance, at 2.57' where the higher runs begin and continue for several bars and at 3.36' where more high runs, followed by the repeat of the main theme occurs the Visseaux bring out the plucking of the harp's strings with palpable clarity. The same in the final few bars. Overall, I prefer the Visseaux because of this, but the 6L5's are extremely good and do portray the ethereal warmth very well. Ultimately both are excellent tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Guys I have got lost with so many tubes discussed. I may order the 6J5 adapter after Christmas. Besides the Visseaux, is there a concensus on the "second" best all-rounder for jazz, blues and rock?  the Visseaux are a bit steep.
> 
> I understood that the Pinnacle are good. What about those beauties that @connieflyer showed some days ago (Sylvania?)?
> 
> Thanks!


 
 It's a tall order IMHO for a single tube to accommodate those three different genres at the level of  reproduced musical sophistication I suspect you are hoping to hear, and I doubt there will ever be complete consensus when it comes to tubes.
 For what it's worth I would think Rock and big band Jazz will suit the Visseaux and probably also the Pinnacles, which are pretty lively, though not as gutsy as the Visseaux.
 On the other hand the 6L5's should suit more intimate Jazz, including vocals and Blues really well. 
 As an alternative you could always use your 'Bad Boy' as an excellent single tube compromise. There are also excellent Noval 9 pin  tubes too and ECC88 'Bugle Boy' is one I know and like very much and is pretty versatile in my set up to my ears.
 This is based mostly on speculation on my part as I don't have the same kit as you, except for Ember, and I don't listen to Rock at all, I'm mostly Classical and some Jazz.
 Cheers.


----------



## TraceStar

tunkejazz said:


> Guys I have got lost with so many tubes discussed. I may order the 6J5 adapter after Christmas. Besides the Visseaux, is there a concensus on the "second" best all-rounder for jazz, blues and rock?  the Visseaux are a bit steep.
> 
> I understood that the Pinnacle are good. What about those beauties that @connieflyer showed some days ago (Sylvania?)?
> 
> Thanks!


 
  
 I'm using Zenith 6J5. Can't compare it to the Visseaux as I skipped getting them coz of the price but I can say that I love these tubes.


----------



## joespride

How do you guys swap out your tubes for comparisons, Hot Swap or power down to swap them out ?
  
 According to Jeremy all the tabs / adjustments are hot swap capable, I never asked about the tubes though and am curious 
  
 to date I power down (just seems safer).............I have the ? in to Jeremy and am awaiting his answer


----------



## Tunkejazz

Do NOT hot swap the tube!!!


----------



## joespride

tunkejazz said:


> Do NOT hot swap the tube!!!


 
 Thanks


----------



## CZ4A

I was scrounging through my pile o' tubes and found a pair of NOS GE (branded for RCA) 6BL7GTs. Has anyone ever tried one of these in their G1217 or other amp? The 6BL7 is a dual triode with a 6SN7 pinout and looks like it has been used in audio applications before, but it appears to have mainly been used as a vertical oscillator in TVs.


----------



## amigastar

my Ember in B/W


----------



## Astral Abyss

amigastar said:


> my Ember in B/W


 
  
 What affect on the sound does the black and white have, with the lack of coloration?
  
  
  
  
  
  
(don't hurt me)


----------



## svmusa

connieflyer said:


> Welcome fellow Michigander, I have had quite a journey with the Ember, thought of leaving for a "bigger" better" amp a couple of times, then someone like Howie13 or DecentLevi come up with a new combination, try it and stay with the Ember.  The amp is very versatile well supported and plenty of folks here an around the forums for help or info.  Hard for one person to try everything, so it helps when there are alot of us that will throw down a few bucks to try something else with the Ember.  I have an Ember original number 042 so have been around abit, Got the supercharger installed, tried lots of the small 9pin tubes, like most of them, then Jeremy at 1217 builds an adapter to use 6sn7 tubes with it.  Had to buy one tried it and loved it. Then I got myself a black glass Ken-Rad 6SN7 VT231 and I was in heaven, about that time another member here comes up with the dual tube FrankenEmber (we name the builds to be able to refer to them) these use the 7193 tubes, look cool. then someone comes up with and adapter for 6j5's and the race is on again, some I believe it was Howie13 finds these French tubes Visseaux 6j5's and swears by them, at the same time I found the6L5gt's and these are smooth and holographic love em.  Decentlevi gets the Visseaux 6j5's and I weaken.  Just got those and I think they are probably the best of all I have heard.  The really nice thng with the Ember it can roll so many different tubes it gives you equipment a slightly different sound, flavor just changing the tubes.  the other equipment while it is good it does not have the versatiliy that the Ember has.  What ever you decide and enjoy the company.  Just missed you at Ann Arbor they just had a meet over by the zoo a few months back also.  Farmington is not far from them nice to hear before you buy.


 
 I have ended up with Ken-Rad 6SN7 VT-231 tubes in my MicroZotl2 amp and love the sound signature, specifically the bass quality and quantity.
  
 I am looking at Ember II as my second amp and from what I can gather on this thread we can only use one 6SN7 vs a pair on 6J5 and 6L5,  curious which of the 6L5 or 6J5 you would recommend as an equal or upgrade to Ken-rad?


----------



## HOWIE13

svmusa said:


> I have ended up with Ken-Rad 6SN7 VT-231 tubes in my MicroZotl2 amp and love the sound signature, specifically the bass quality and quantity.
> 
> I am looking at Ember II as my second amp and from what I can gather on this thread we can only use one 6SN7 vs a pair on 6J5 and 6L5,  curious which of the 6L5 or 6J5 you would recommend as an equal or upgrade to Ken-rad?


 
 If that's the Ken Rad I think it is you have one of the best regarded 6SN7 tubes for bass.
 It's possible you may not be able to replicate it's sound unless you buy another one for Ember-and I know they aren't cheap.
 Another option would be a Sylvania 6SN7 'Bad Boy'. They aren't cheap either (if it's genuine). There's lots of discussion about that in the Forums. It doesn't go as deep though it's still deep (that's why it was named 'Bad Boy').
 The nearest I've heard in Dual Octals to your Ken Rad is the Franken Jr set up with an RCA 6F8G. (see this thread from # 1270). The one I have goes as deep as the Ken Rad and actually has richer, euphonic mids, though the treble is more attenuated. Overall, I find it better balanced than the Ken Rad, for me. Problem there is you need another adapter and I don't have any knowledge about any other 6F8G. They likely won't all sound the same, maybe not even the RCA's. It's pretty uncharted territory, though there may be some great tubes to be discovered.
 There's a picture of the one I have in the thread at #1270.
 If it was me, given the special nature of your Ken Rad, I would buy another one-though that might prevent you having fun rolling with Ember.
 There are other people on this thread who have lots more experience than me with Octals and they may, hopefully, pick up on your question.
 Good luck!
 EDIT: I expect you know that Ember also takes a whole load of Noval 9 pins, as well as Octals.


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## HOWIE13

cz4a said:


> I was scrounging through my pile o' tubes and found a pair of NOS GE (branded for RCA) 6BL7GTs. Has anyone ever tried one of these in their G1217 or other amp? The 6BL7 is a dual triode with a 6SN7 pinout and looks like it has been used in audio applications before, but it appears to have mainly been used as a vertical oscillator in TVs.


 
 Heater current 1.5A. 
 Better check with Jeremy on that before trying. 
 Hope he says it's alright to use- it looks very interesting.


----------



## CZ4A

howie13 said:


> Heater current 1.5A.
> Better check with Jeremy on that before trying.
> Hope he says it's alright to use- it looks very interesting.


 

 I noticed that while doing more homework on the type. I'm not going to risk it on the Sunrise.
  
 The 6BL7 is a beefy-looking tube, that's for sure.

  
  
  
 I guess if I want half the experience, I could use a 6DN7. It's basically half a 6SN7, half a 6BL7, and draws only 0.9A!


----------



## HOWIE13

cz4a said:


> I noticed that while doing more homework on the type. I'm not going to risk it on the Sunrise.
> 
> The 6BL7 is a beefy-looking tube, that's for sure.
> 
> ...


 
 You could have bets on which channel you would hear.


----------



## sneaky415

I rolled a new tube in the Ember, it's a GEC L63 (CV1067). Basically it's the European version of the 6j5g. Really nice tube from top to bottom. One of my favourite tubes so far for the Ember and I've rolled quite a few.
  
 I haven't tried the Visseaux 6j5g so I don't know how it compares. I will buy the Visseaux some day but I have been spending way too much money on audio stuff lately so my wallet needs some time to heel first


----------



## sneaky415

cz4a said:


> I was scrounging through my pile o' tubes and found a pair of NOS GE (branded for RCA) 6BL7GTs. Has anyone ever tried one of these in their G1217 or other amp? The 6BL7 is a dual triode with a 6SN7 pinout and looks like it has been used in audio applications before, but it appears to have mainly been used as a vertical oscillator in TVs.


 
 Like some others said the heater current is 1.5 A so you would need external heater supply for it to work in the Ember. I read that it was used as a television frame generator so I don't know if it is any good for audio.


----------



## Mechans1

Let me ask indelicate question, how much in round figures, do the Visseaux 6J5s cost?   Also - and please don't answer with specifics, are there regular dealers who carry this the 6J5 and the Visseaux brand? I Imagine if they are in short supply, that blabbing the name of this supplier all over won't t help hose who really feel the need for these tubes.
 Back to the more mundane world of  rolling 6SN7s in the Ember.  I have tried as of late, NU black  and  Grey glass, the VT231 bottom getter GT and Bad Boy variant also from the brand the original  Chrome Dome top getter GTs and Ws all made by Sylvania and left plenty for next time  Today is NU, I should tell you, that despite my long and  colorful way of writing, what  I want to convey, that I am, by contrast, terse in my audio appraisals .
 The NU black is a very well known commodity in this community as being true and non colored while the Grey attacks with a softer edge and presentation.  The Grey therefore perhaps would be well received by those whose preferences run warm and organic. The NU black glass is very different it sounds very linear clean but not overly stark or cold. It manages  decent detail and and good sound stage .  I think it is a very good all rounder making no errors mistakes or serious weakness or by that same token doing one thing exceptionally well.  My though here was good all rounder and a great choice for someone rolling up the 6SN7 ladder.  It even includes the eye pleasing and cool allure of a black glass.
 More on the others in a future episode of Mechans1 presents..


----------



## Tunkejazz

I think the Visseaux are around £30 each. Yea there are few sellers that have them, probably a rare tube.


----------



## Mechans1

Eber can be used as a pre amp according to Garage  1217.  The next big project might be a headphone tube power amp that works with the Ember II pre. amp. I would be interested in such a project  If some flexibility for the power tube used is built in that would be  very welcome.


----------



## DecentLevi

Oh yes, several of us have already put this feature into play, with both headphones and speakers. The Ember is a solid performer as a pre-amp, AKA tube buffer. Simply use the RCA line out on the back and remove the headphone plug, and the preamp feature is activated, and the volume level is still controlled by the knob.
  
 Now that I have the LC amp, I don't even use the amplification of the Ember anymore. I use it only as a preamp to the LC amp, or to my electrostatic amp. This way I get the flavor of the other amp, with the sonic goodness of the tubes I'm using. And I'm shocked at how well this works - after many careful comparisons feeding the LC direct vs. indirect thanks to it's instant input selector switch, I was able to notice absolutely 0% signal degradation although it's a longer signal path, and with the Visseaux tubes anyway, I get a bit more organic presentation with larger soundstage.
  
 It's interesting to note however, that I have determined the Ember to have a better amplification stage than the LC while in *SE mode* (normal) headphone connection on some headphones, and the LC was better with others. However with the balanced headphone out on this amp, it's no contest so the Ember comes in as a preamp.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Merry Christmas to all reading!
  
 For whatever it's worth, here are my initial impression notes on the several tubes I've been playing with for the last couple of weeks in my new Ember.
  
 I'm yet to buy a pair of HD650 in the beginning of the year and a pair of LCD-2 later. I use my Ember set to low impedance with my Fidelio X2, Denon AH-MM400, Focal Spirit Classic.
  
 * * *
  
 Raytheon 12AU7 (long black plates) - overall very musical tube, natural smooth bass w/ noticeable bleed into mids, beautiful mids (piano, trumpet) and lush vocals, tamed highs w/ enough detail, a bit narrow soundstage with good depth
  
 Matsush(i)ta 12BH7A - very interesting tube, fast bass and high overall energy in attacks, good details in highs, wide soundstage, sometimes hollow mids, nice realistic shimmer of guitars, best for rock & blues, vocals and piano are not very lush for my tastes.
  
 GE 6SN7GT - balanced, overall airy and detailed sound, fast bass, wide soundstage, little dry mids and vocals, not very smooth highs.
  
 Sylvania 6SN7GTA (Chrome dome, long base) - very balanced with great detail, natural bass (not too slow, not too fast), relaxed smooth vocals, extended upper mids, polite but detailed highs, sometimes too much air sensing void between instruments
  
 Russian 6H6П (6N6P) - soft, smooth, relaxed, musical, not for critical listening, good for modern low DR recordings, narrow soundstage, complete lack of harshness in highs, makes the Fidelio X2 with its dryer sometimes edgy highs to sound lush almost like HD650.
  
 JJ ECC82 (Slovak 12AU7) - the controled bass is its strong point, slightly U-shape soundtsage, sometimes hollow mids, not refined highs
  
 Shuguang 6N6-T - overall balanced & fast, SS amp sound signature alike, fast dry controled bass, harsh sounding highs, nicer w/ good quality recordings, likes clean source
  
 (Russian) Electro-Harmonix 12AX7EH - I don't like this sound type at all, lean, lack of bass, too much highs, forward vocals, good to tame bassy tracks
  
 GE 6DJ8 (smoked glass) - can't comment on this tube, it just sounds PERFECT, I guess that's the sound I bought the Ember for. It makes me spend money to try other brands' 6DJ8s.
  
 * * *
  
 A Telefunken 12AU7 and RCA 6SN7 are coming my way. I guess I'll settle when I try some 12AT7 particularly Mullard or Philips, also want to try a few more 12AX7 and 12BH7A, and definitely more 6DJ8.
  
 I'm using the Ember with my ODAC (part of my ODAC/O2 combo). I hope somebody can comment if I can get noticeable improvement from another dedicated desktop DAC in $300-400 price range?
  
 Cheers!


----------



## richard51

Bobmonkhouse I wish you the best and to all of you the same also !
  
 My experience with the bushmaster mk II was very  good.... Emotiva stealth dac is also a good choice ... The two are under 400 dollars.... I will upgrade in one year in the 1000 dollars range ....read about these 2... No really negative review about these 2


----------



## joespride

Anyone tried the cv181 ?  also who do you guys recommend for the 6j5 adapter ?


----------



## HOWIE13

I've got the Shuguang CV181-Z. It's a good tube-very quiet, well balanced, clear and warmish sound-nothing stands out particularly in it's frequency output and its sound stage is comparable to other 6SN7's.
 I buy my adapters from:
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Dual-6J5G-6C5G-VT-94-CV1932-L63-VR67-TO-ECC88-6922-tube-converter-adapter-/201458214762?hash=item2ee7d8676a:g:j5EAAOSwhcJWM0XX.
 I've found him very reliable and helpful.


----------



## connieflyer

I have bought a few adapters from the same seller and quality is usually quite good


----------



## DecentLevi

Hey guys, I just read on another thread that it seems the 2C22 and 6N8S are variants of the 6SN7. So perhaps these would work on the Ember too...
  
 Edit: looks like 2C22 is the same as 7193


----------



## TraceStar

Welp, keeping both the 6LG5 and 6J5. After got G-Cush pads, I managed to balance out the tubes and sounds to my liking.
  
6L5G + G-Cush pads
 Highlights bass. Some of the heavier metal songs I play sounds nice on this combo. It still has great mids and decent highs. On stock pads the voices sound too recessed for my liking.
  
6J5 + L-Cush pads
 Beautiful guitars and strings. Vocals are almost magical. Combo is perfect for guitar riffing songs, violins and female vocalist especially. 
  
6J5 + G-Cush pads
 Funny thing, 6J5 + G-Cush improves the staging a lot but the vocals sound like they're somewhere off stage. It works perfectly for movies though as I can hear directional audio much better. Also can hear much more going on without everything getting muddled together.
  
  
 So I'm all set for now. Will be enjoying these tubes till someone else stumble on some other magical formula LOL.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Hey guys, I just read on another thread that it seems the 2C22 and 6N8S are variants of the 6SN7. So perhaps these would work on the Ember too...
> 
> Edit: looks like 2C22 is the same as 7193


 
 Yes, I interchanged RCA 7193 with their 2C22. They look and sound identical. Those 6N8S would be interesting to try. You never know what nice old Russian tubes are just waiting to be re-discovered.


----------



## DecentLevi

You the man - Howie's about you be our guinnea pig on this new 6N8S revolution?
  
 For me - sorry I'm unable to do upgrades right now for personal reasons


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> You the man - Howie's about you be our guinnea pig on this new 6N8S revolution?
> 
> For me - sorry I'm unable to do upgrades right now for personal reasons


 
 Maybe I should just have been satisfied with my Polaris 'cos it's the 'Never Ending Story' with Ember rolling- and just when we thought we had reached the end of the line along come more tubes
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 OK I'm a bit low on funds right now-but with a birthday at the end of January -who knows!


----------



## HOWIE13

howie13 said:


> Maybe I should just have been satisfied with my Polaris 'cos it's the 'Never Ending Story' with Ember rolling- and just when we thought we had reached the end of the line along come more tubes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 WHEW!!!
 I have those 6N8S already.(Foton 1950's, military stuff)). They were what I've considered my 'Russian 6SN7's'.
 I thought when I bought them-dead cheap as a lot of 4 many months ago, they were pleasant sounding, inoffensive and quite airy and I listened again just now and that's exactly how they still sound to me. Not musically terribly attention grabbing though, and dynamics a bit flat.
 Fine for easy listening and as maybe an excellent value starter tube to whet the appetite for further exploration of Octals, you know what I mean, lol.


----------



## DecentLevi

Yeah the 6N8S are the same class as 6SN7 and are prob. quite similar. Seems there's a big variety and new waters to chart new sonic possibilities with other models of these though.


----------



## Mechans1

Frankly, the best sounding Russian tubes, I have heard are the most recently released tubes from New Sensor.  There are possibly  some exceptions like the "Hole Plate"  version of the 6SN7 , I forget how to describe it other than it being a  Melz tube and this is by reputation only. I have yet to try them.


----------



## Astral Abyss

(excuse my terrible photo skills and phone camera)
  
 Well, as promised, I received a brand new Ember II for Christmas from my wife and family.  They included the 6SN7 adapter from Jeremy also (amazing build quality) and I've already made use of it with my Tung-Sol mouse ear 6SN7GT.  I tried several other tubes that I have, including:  the JJ ECC82 that it came with (which I like a lot), a Telefunken ECC83 (too much background static), '60 Philips Miniwatt E88CC (a bit too much gain, but sounds great), '58 Sylvania 6CG7 (a bit lifeless sounding), '53 Slyvania 6SN7GT (harsh highs and thin mids).  I haven't tried my '70s Amperex 6DJ8 Orange Globe, Sylvania JAN 6922, or 6N23P Russian '79 Voskhod Rockets or '75 Reflektors yet.
  
 Honestly, I like the way the Tung-Sol sounds the best and I'm going to stick with it for a while.  I may look for some other 6SN7s to try out on ebay.  Not ready to jump into the big-boy Franken setup yet.  I'll get there eventually.  I can never stop tinkering with things so it's only a matter of time.
  
 Current setup is Foobar 2000 to the Schiit Modi 2 Uber, into the Ember II powering a pair of HD650s.  Ember II replaced a Vali 1, and literally blows it away.  Honestly, I've been enjoying listening to this setup even more than my Bifrost MB / Lyr 2 combo into LCD-2f / Fostex TH-X00.  I may have to try my other headphones with this Ember and see how it fares.
  
 I have to say, pictures don't do the Ember justice.  Such a beautiful piece of gear.  Impeccable solder work and layout.  Just looks incredible.


----------



## HOWIE13

mechans1 said:


> Frankly, the best sounding Russian tubes, I have heard are the most recently released tubes from New Sensor.  There are possibly  some exceptions like the "Hole Plate"  version of the 6SN7 , I forget how to describe it other than it being a  Melz tube and this is by reputation only. I have yet to try them.


 
  


mechans1 said:


> Frankly, the best sounding Russian tubes, I have heard are the most recently released tubes from New Sensor.  There are possibly  some exceptions like the "Hole Plate"  version of the 6SN7 , I forget how to describe it other than it being a  Melz tube and this is by reputation only. I have yet to try them.


 
 Those Melz with all the holes look very interesting. They seem expensive for a Russian 6SN7. Do you know anything about them?


----------



## Mechans1

howie13 said:


> Those Melz with all the holes look very interesting. They seem expensive for a Russian 6SN7. Do you know anything about them?


 

 I was told by an old tube rolling buddy that the Erector Set looking tubes were the ones to try.  You may be too young to know what an Erector Set is - Even then he said they were  not that great. Given my friends assessment and the very high price being asked I have yet to try them. 
 I agree they are expensive but they do seem genuinely scarce.  I rarely see more than a few on Ebay at any given time, while  the 6N8S are all over the place.


----------



## svmusa

astral abyss said:


> (excuse my terrible photo skills and phone camera)
> 
> Well, as promised, I received a brand new Ember II for Christmas from my wife and family.  They included the 6SN7 adapter from Jeremy also (amazing build quality) and I've already made use of it with my Tung-Sol mouse ear 6SN7GT.  I tried several other tubes that I have, including:  the JJ ECC82 that it came with (which I like a lot), a Telefunken ECC83 (too much background static), '60 Philips Miniwatt E88CC (a bit too much gain, but sounds great), '58 Sylvania 6CG7 (a bit lifeless sounding), '53 Slyvania 6SN7GT (harsh highs and thin mids).  I haven't tried my '70s Amperex 6DJ8 Orange Globe, Sylvania JAN 6922, or 6N23P Russian '79 Voskhod Rockets or '75 Reflektors yet.
> 
> ...




Do you detect any background noise with your headphones in this setup?


----------



## Astral Abyss

svmusa said:


> Do you detect any background noise with your headphones in this setup?


 
  
 None at all.  But, I must qualify that by stating the settings I am using:  Low gain, 35ohm resistor, input capacitors engaged.


----------



## svmusa

astral abyss said:


> None at all.  But, I must qualify that by stating the settings I am using:  Low gain, 35ohm resistor, input capacitors engaged.




Thx, I am planning to use TH900 on this amp.


----------



## Astral Abyss

svmusa said:


> Thx, I am planning to use TH900 on this amp.


 
  
 I have the TH-X00.  I will likely try them out on the Ember soon.


----------



## HOWIE13

mechans1 said:


> I was told by an old tube rolling buddy that the Erector Set looking tubes were the ones to try.  You may be too young to know what an Erector Set is - Even then he said they were  not that great. Given my friends assessment and the very high price being asked I have yet to try them.
> I agree they are expensive but they do seem genuinely scarce.  I rarely see more than a few on Ebay at any given time, while  the 6N8S are all over the place.


 
 You're correct-I'm too young to remember Erector Sets, but I'm glad your friend said they were not very good otherwise I might have been tempted to investigate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .


----------



## svmusa

astral abyss said:


> I have the TH-X00.  I will likely try them out on the Ember soon.




That will be great, seems like few members did indicate few posts back that their setup does have background noise for high sensitive phones, hence my question.


----------



## Makiah S

cz4a said:


> I noticed that while doing more homework on the type. I'm not going to risk it on the Sunrise.
> 
> The 6BL7 is a beefy-looking tube, that's for sure.
> 
> ...


 
 ooooh an it's a clear TOP  
 also I got my LA D5k back today, with lawton pads an it really sounds GREAT out of my Starlight II ^^ the two are a lovely pair


----------



## Mechans1

I have spent a fortune on tubes I just hadn't got the desire to buy those hole plate tubes.  I  wish trading was easier than it is now. But a lot of tube sellers are only sellers out for filthy lucre and not the sound and glory of great tubes.
 I really took my old friends assessment to heart we had gone through several phases of the tube rollers pathology but he went on to SETs like some of this group has but in his case the SET amps and all. SET amps tend to be expensive not only the rarity of the triode tube but the high quality of the transformers etc.  I stayed low collecting typical audio preamp tubes.  In retrospect I wish I had gone the other way. The redundancy in my collection is just ridiculous.  How many Ws do you need to feel secure? 3 or 4 pairs maybe but not 15 or so.  I did manage to keep my ECC 32 collection to only 3 but that was all I could get. ECC33 only 2 but I have matured.. The CV1988 more like 8 I hadn't my current perspective.
 So I like one type of 6922 E88CC it is the Mullard CV2493 I have 4 in my monoblocs (currently stolen by ex wife) I have the 8 backups.  If that were all of those type tubes that might be forgiven but I have a whole bunch of other flavors, brands and types of similar tubes, which could be used .  I am sure you get the picture. When I figure out how to post pictures I can take with my phone I might start selling some.


----------



## tommo21

svmusa said:


> That will be great, seems like few members did indicate few posts back that their setup does have background noise for high sensitive phones, hence my question.


 

 TH-x00 is not great on the Ember imho. To little sparkle and energy on top. It ends up being a little bit dull sounding. I'm waiting to try the TH-X00 out on a Gustard H10 after new years, to see if it's better. Not too noisy with the right tubes(Visseaux) on Ember though.


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

The project sunrise 3 isn't a good match for the thx00 either but the lower powered horizon 3 is fantastic.


----------



## Makiah S

soundsgoodtome said:


> The project sunrise 3 isn't a good match for the thx00 either but the lower powered horizon 3 is fantastic.


 
 The Starlight is also a good match, though honestly I like my LA D5k with the Starlight more than my TH X00, the LA D5k is a tad drier sounding with more top end edge, it really pairs well with a hybrid tube!


----------



## Soundsgoodtome

You need a tube for the THX00 then! Time to go shopping.


mshenay said:


> The Starlight is also a good match, though honestly I like my LA D5k with the Starlight more than my TH X00, the LA D5k is a tad drier sounding with more top end edge, it really pairs well with a hybrid tube!


----------



## connieflyer

I picked up a pair of hd700's and after about 10 hours they are excellent with the Ember. Like the combo enough to sell off a pair of two of the 650's.  Using the Visseaux 6j5g's at present time and to my ears a great combo.


----------



## Makiah S

soundsgoodtome said:


> You need a tube for the THX00 then! Time to go shopping.


 
 Honestly I REALLY like the sound of the Stock 12UA7 with my LA D5k, the some what... more liquid presentation of the TH X00 does NOT pair well with the Starlight imo. the TH X00 really sounds best out of my Solid States, with the Lawton pads the LA D5k has a drier an more defined sound hence forth the tube adds just the right amount of warmth, given the subsequent loss of sound stage 
  
 still, for Tube Owners an lovers I'd say grab a fully Modded LA D5k, for Solid State fanatics the TH X00 xAlpha Pad is the way to go ;3 
  
 seeing as how my LA D5k is prettier to look at I'ma keep it on my head an enjoy this Hybrid tube ^^


----------



## tonykaz

Mr.Connieflyer,
  
 Those HD700s.
  
 It's fascinating to read about your success with these Sennheisers.  I've not heard or even seen a pair of 700s, Steve G in NY owns a pair and mentions them occasionally, Tyll in Montana does not appreciate them ( going so far as to not recommend them ) but I trust Sennheiser and will hope to read your future comments.    Since working with the Audiologists (earlier this year), my HD580s became superb, so-much-so that I'm holding off buying the HD800s I fell in love with, last year.   
  
 Anyway, I see HD700s on ebay for reasonable prices ( maybe $400 ), so buying a pair is not an expensive experiment.  
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## connieflyer

One of the biggest problems was with the early reviews, they compared to 800's and at $1000 I would not have been happy with them either.  At under $500 at amazon, these are great. The sibilance people complain about and the 6k spike I have not seen, is it because of the Ember, I don't know, but I would imagine Sennheiser may have tweaked some, and if not then there were alot of haters that just like to repost what they read instead of what they read.These are clear as a bell, and the bass is fine, not thunderous by any means, but it is there and accurate.  If you want mega bass, you need speakers not headphones.  Soundstage is larger than either pair of my 650's and I like them better, so will sell off the 650's.  I am using dual Visseaux 6j5's, this also helps make them so clear.  Not cheap to be sure, but getting kind of rare, so bought second pair of tubes.  Have about 12 hours on these phones now and are a little more open than when fresh out of the box. This is my fifth pair of Sennheiser phones and contiunue to enjoy their vision.


----------



## Makiah S

connieflyer said:


> One of the biggest problems was with the early reviews, they compared to 800's and at $1000 I would not have been happy with them either.  At under $500 at amazon, these are great. The sibilance people complain about and the 6k spike I have not seen, is it because of the Ember, I don't know, but I would imagine Sennheiser may have tweaked some, and if not then there were alot of haters that just like to repost what they read instead of what they read.These are clear as a bell, and the bass is fine, not thunderous by any means, but it is there and accurate.  If you want mega bass, you need speakers not headphones.  Soundstage is larger than either pair of my 650's and I like them better, so will sell off the 650's.  I am using dual Visseaux 6j5's, this also helps make them so clear.  Not cheap to be sure, but getting kind of rare, so bought second pair of tubes.  Have about 12 hours on these phones now and are a little more open than when fresh out of the box. This is my fifth pair of Sennheiser phones and contiunue to enjoy their vision.


 
 Yea I've heard the HD 700 is a bit of a black sheep, price wise it can be gotten for a really good price if your in teh right place at the right time
  
 an in terms of sonics I've heard a mix of both positive an negative


----------



## tonykaz

Mr.connieflyer,
  
 Thank you, dam good piece of journalistic summary.  
  
 Prices aside, I've discovered Sennheiser's transducers to be the finest I've encountered in my 5 to 6 decades of activity in music reproduction.
  
 Those Planer folks, with their pursuit of "ultimate" performance stated objectives, plus the Balanced concept and the higher powered amplification requirements leave them little room to admire a group of dynamic headphones with modest price levels ( originating from their early years of discovery & before they owned superb DACs ). 
  
 I've come to 'feel' that headphone transducers have a "Voice" ( much like Opera Singers ) and I'm beginning to 'feel' that Tubes also have a 'Voice'.
  
 I think I'm also learning that these "musical devices" ( transducers & various tubes ) want a bit of coaxing which we DIY'ers enjoy providing. 
  
 The Buyers of the Multi-Thousand Dollar offerings seem to be low patience types with discretionary money to buy-up all of-the latest & best.  They write supporting observations of the 'rave' reviews before moving on to their next purchase, I also suspect their postings are a large part of their hobby ( I see this in groups of Old-Geezers buying up the latest V-8 Corvettes and the like ). 
  
 The Garage1217 owners ( as least some of them ) appear to be on a "Great Valve Safari" adventure, which seems both exciting and romantic but at vaporisticly low prices. Schiit's latest "dual-triode" Vali 2 may speak to that Company's view of this segment of the Audio Hobby activists who seem to realize that Single Triode designs keep the financial expenditures to a minimum whilst maintaining the possibility of revealing or unearthing rare amplification treasures and the "hope" of discovering another "Stradivarius" like instrument.
  
 I'm a collector, I collect beautiful music.  
  
 I may soon join the Tube Adventure folks by purchasing a Ember.
  
 Thank you for your posted contributions.  
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## Makiah S

tonykaz said:


> The Garage1217 owners ( as least some of them ) appear to be on a "Great Valve Safari" adventure, which seems both exciting and romantic but at vaporisticly low prices. Schiit's latest "dual-triode" Vali 2 may speak to that Company's view of this segment of the Audio Hobby activists who seem to realize that Single Triode designs keep the financial expenditures to a minimum whilst maintaining the possibility of revealing or unearthing rare amplification treasures and the "hope" of discovering another "Stradivarius" like instrument.


 
 May I steal this 
  
 but yea, owning tubes it's a life style choice I think, due to the time an hair pulling out involved lol 
  
 I've already got my eyes on a $100 Telefuken 12UA7 ECC 82


----------



## connieflyer

Tonykaz, I see you are in Troy, I am in Farmington, so if I can be of any help, let me know, tube rolling can be very interesting, and really lets you see the differences, the type of tubes can make.  I started out cheap, and tried alot of different types, to narrow down what (I) liked.  Advice is nice to hear, but since everyone's hearing and perseption of music is different, you and I may hear variations that may or may not be pleasing or different.  Took me a little while to get here but the ride has been very interesting and rewarding.  Let me know if I can help out, Don.


----------



## tonykaz

Mr.connieflyer,
  
 I'm a quarter mile from Starbucks or Cowleys or Three Amigo's on Grand River.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## Mechans1

What is the attraction in regards to this Tele 12AU7? I promise not to compete with you for it. I already own a couple and prefer Amperex  12AU7s any way. 
 The hardest tube to get these days is the 12AX7 in excellent condition.   The guitar amp guys use them and  have created a huge demand for the good ones.  The prices  reflect this . 
 I have been collecting tubes for about a dozen years and got caught up in the 5751 craze, and didn't collect  enough regular 12AX7s.  Thus to be clear,  I recommend that you buy the best  12AX7s you can get .  Junky old tubes will only and always be junk.
  When great tubes survive to old age, somehow  avoiding being used for the purposes they were made for, they obviously become rare,  great, old tubes and command crazy, big money. At that point they are trophies. 
 I have noticed that a couple of tube collectors are selling off some or all of their precious old power tubes GE JAN 6550s.  The reason may well be that current production tube quality has equaled or surpassed the old guys.  It happens, they are still well known and sought after by those who aren't sophisticated in regards to the latest advances in tube manufacture and will probably get snapped up.


----------



## Makiah S

mechans1 said:


> What is the attraction in regards to this Tele 12AU7? I promise not to compete with you for it. I already own a couple and prefer Amperex  12AU7s any way.
> The hardest tube to get these days is the 12AX7 in excellent condition.   The guitar amp guys use them and  have created a huge demand for the good ones.  The prices  reflect this .
> I have been collecting tubes for about a dozen years and got caught up in the 5751 craze, and didn't collect  enough regular 12AX7s.  Thus to be clear,  I recommend that you buy the best  12AX7s you can get .  Junky old tubes will only and always be junk.
> When great tubes survive to old age, somehow  avoiding being used for the purposes they were made for, they obviously become rare,  great, old tubes and command crazy, big money. At that point they are trophies.
> I have noticed that a couple of tube collectors are selling off some or all of their precious old power tubes GE JAN 6550s.  The reason may well be that current production tube quality has equaled or surpassed the old guys.  It happens, they are still well known and sought after by those who aren't sophisticated in regards to the latest advances in tube manufacture and will probably get snapped up.


 
 honestly, I've always heard Telefunken tubes have a very bright an dry sound, I like the sound of my 12UA7 ECC82, the stock tube for the Starlight, an I'd like something with a little better sound stage... that's about my only gripe with it


----------



## BobMonkhouse

I just received my Telefunken 12AU7 ECC82 (red tip), very curious to try it tonight!
  
 I can't find much info on 12AT7 tubes. Does anybody have experience with those in Ember?


----------



## Mechans1

bobmonkhouse said:


> I just received my Telefunken 12AU7 ECC82 (red tip), very curious to try it tonight!
> 
> I can't find much info on 12AT7 tubes. Does anybody have experience with those in Ember?


 

 Yes I have some experience with them in the Ember II,  given the time I have had the amp   You can use almost any you may have.  I don't know if you'll find them to be better that your 12AU7s or 6SN7s et al.. 
 As for sound quality, that's variable of course but none  really  grabbed me and I haven't been using them lately They have a mu of about 60% that of a 12AX7. Jeremy might cl;assify  that as a relatively high gain tube which can be noisy.  I didn't have noise problems..
 Special tubes that are available are include the Trustee sub brand by  Brimar the tube is called T 6060.  It,is highly regarded, but I have some and can't really tell much about them.  There is or was a seller on Ebay who has/d 801S by Siemens, and the cryptically labeled 13D5 also by Brimar.  The 13D5 was  supposedly for industrial use. After that there are the usual suspects,  Telefunken,. Mullard etc but  don't turn down A B309 by Marconi Britain if you see any.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

mechans1 said:


> Yes I have some experience with them in the Ember II... </snip>


 
  
 Thanks a lot for the exhaustive information.
  
 I've been eyeing some Mullard 12AT7 tubes. Maybe, I'll buy one to try it.
  
 I've been listening to the Telefunken 12AU7 for the last a half hour. I like the bass extension and speed, the female vocals and upper mids are placed where they belong and are as articulated as supposed to, the highs a a bit dry but balanced with seamless transition from the mids. The biggest problem for me are the lower mids. Something is missing there, can't say exactly what, kind of flat and cave sound, and lacking layers.


----------



## Mechans1

It sounds like you would be happy with a good Mullard  12AT7.


----------



## HOWIE13

mechans1 said:


> It sounds like you would be happy with a good Mullard  12AT7.


 
 That Mullard is very good for me also. I also have and enjoy the warm sweetness of 12AT7 Amperex Orange Globe and Amperex Bugle Boy. Tungsram are cooler and more detailed. I didn't like the E-H though-rather flat and boring for my taste. Another nice, richly warm and detailed tube is the Valvo from Hamburg They all cause a bit of scratchiness when moving the vol pot-but nothing grating on my ear and I don't need to invoke the input capacitors to stop the scratchiness. 12AT7's add more gain so you can go louder with less movement of the vol pot, but the downside is with more sensitive, lower impedance cans you may not get above the 9 o'clock position to ensure good channel balance. They can work very well with higher impedance/ less sensitive cans though.


----------



## Makiah S

bobmonkhouse said:


> Thanks a lot for the exhaustive information.
> 
> I've been eyeing some Mullard 12AT7 tubes. Maybe, I'll buy one to try it.
> 
> I've been listening to the Telefunken 12AU7 for the last a half hour. I like the bass extension and speed, the female vocals and upper mids are placed where they belong and are as articulated as supposed to, the highs a a bit dry but balanced with seamless transition from the mids. The biggest problem for me are the lower mids. Something is missing there, can't say exactly what, kind of flat and cave sound, and lacking layers.


 
 hmmmmmm flat lower mids like a cave sound... so some what sucked out
  
 I guess to say, how do the low mids on the Telefunken compare to the Stock 12UA7


----------



## connieflyer

Have to agree with Howard on this as well.  When I still rolled 9 pin tubes I preferred tehe 12at7's to the 12ax7.s, still have a few Amperex bugle boy 12at7's and a Mullard.  Have not heard the Valvo, but the EH was thrown in the trash, did not like it at all.  Since going to the dual 6j5's, 6c5s and 6L5's now don't roll 9 pins or 6sn7's  much.  I try them from time to time but always go back to the dual setups.  The dual 7193's don't get much time either.


----------



## CZ4A

I have a NOS Mullard 12AT7 but I don't really like it. Maybe I haven't broken it in enough yet? I can't say I like my American 12AT7s either. They sound either tinny or too bright. I have a nice Siemens ECC81/12AT7- not quite as bright as the American tubes, but still full-sounding.
  
 I have four T-Funk smooth plate 12AX7s that came from an old computer op-amp called the GAP/R. They're quite used up and two are difficult to bias, but I do like how the working ones sound.
  
 I missed out on a couple of used Ember 1s. The Sunrise has enough heater current to light two single-triode tubes if I decide to jump on the Franken-Ember bandwagon (Franken-rise? Sun-Stein?). Instead, I will be trying something completely different, an APPJ 1502A. Should be interesting to compare to the Sunrise III. I plan on keeping one of my amps at work and one at home.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

mshenay said:


> hmmmmmm flat lower mids like a cave sound... so some what sucked out
> 
> I guess to say, how do the low mids on the Telefunken compare to the Stock 12UA7


 
  
 If by stock 12UA7 you mean the JJ version, they are very different. The stock one can't compete at all. I listened to the Telefunken a lot last night. It sounds exceptionally clean and detailed. The bass and the highs are very realistic. I can't find a flaw there. The mids though are not as sweet and layered as I like them. Classical music sounds great with this tube. Keep in mind, I use it with a low impedance Fidelio X2. I suspect, it'll sound different and probably better with HD650.


----------



## Mechans1

It appears you guys like the  Philips tubes in regard to the dual triode nine pins.  I agree whole hearted that  the EH  noval based tubes are  really awful.  Curiously I found their big bottle 6CA7s to be remarkably good in my mono bloc speaker amps. 
 I have so much invested in the usual suspect preamp tubes that  I find it hard to go on to  separate dual triodes. I can understand why they are good and in some cases truly special.  I imagine that there are a few out there that have yet to be discovered.


----------



## TraceStar

I didn't like 12AX7s. Got a Mullard and Sylvania and both didn't click that well for me. Didn't get 12AT7s so can't comment there.
  
 I actually liked a Mullard 12AU7 and Brimar CV4003. The Mullard was sweeter. A nice ring to the treble. But it was kinda top focused. The Brimar was overall nicer and it was also quieter. Had a shuguang tube from Bravo Ocean. It was crap on the Bravo and it was crap on Ember... Electro Harmonix 12AU7 was better than the Shuguang but that's the only good thing about it.


----------



## HOWIE13

Like connieflyer, the Dual Octals, especially the 6J5's and their single triode equivalents, do it all for me.


----------



## TraceStar

howie13 said:


> Like connieflyer, the Dual Octals, especially the 6J5's and their single triode equivalents, do it all for me.


 
  


connieflyer said:


> Have to agree with Howard on this as well.  When I still rolled 9 pin tubes I preferred tehe 12at7's to the 12ax7.s, still have a few Amperex bugle boy 12at7's and a Mullard.  Have not heard the Valvo, but the EH was thrown in the trash, did not like it at all.  Since going to the dual 6j5's, 6c5s and 6L5's now don't roll 9 pins or 6sn7's  much.  I try them from time to time but always go back to the dual setups.  The dual 7193's don't get much time either.


 
  
 Come brothers. Join us in the dark side. The force of Dual Octals await you all.


----------



## HOWIE13

tracestar said:


> Come brothers. Join us in the dark side. The force of Dual Octals await you all.


 
 ...and don't forget to purchase the adapter first!


----------



## Astral Abyss

What do you guys like (those that are using them) for the 6SN7's?  I have a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT mouse ear and a CBS-Hytron 6SN7GT currently.  I'm quite happy with them and the sound they have.
  
 Or if you all think the 6SN7 is not really that good, what's the next step?


----------



## TraceStar

astral abyss said:


> What do you guys like (those that are using them) for the 6SN7's?  I have a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT mouse ear and a CBS-Hytron 6SN7GT currently.  I'm quite happy with them and the sound they have.
> 
> Or if you all think the 6SN7 is not really that good, what's the next step?


 
  
 I only tried EH 6SN7 and it was a marked improvement over novals. I imagine the better tubes like Ken Rad VT-231 and Sylvania Bad Boys would be better. The next step? Dual lightsabers! I mean dual octals!
  


howie13 said:


> ...and don't forget to purchase the adapter first!


 
  
 Uh yes... I did get my tubes a couple of weeks before I got the adapter... It's easy to get too excited LOL


----------



## Astral Abyss

tracestar said:


> I only tried EH 6SN7 and it was a marked improvement over novals. I imagine the better tubes like Ken Rad VT-231 and Sylvania Bad Boys would be better. The next step? Dual lightsabers! I mean dual octals!
> 
> 
> Uh yes... I did get my tubes a couple of weeks before I got the adapter... It's easy to get too excited LOL


 
  
 What's the best quality adapter to get for the duals?
  
 I'd love to get hold of a Ken-Rad VT-231, but any of the better ones with matched sections and decent gain cost a fortune.


----------



## HOWIE13

tracestar said:


> I only tried EH 6SN7 and it was a marked improvement over novals. I imagine the better tubes like Ken Rad VT-231 and Sylvania Bad Boys would be better. The next step? Dual lightsabers! I mean dual octals!
> 
> 
> Uh yes... I did get my tubes a couple of weeks before I got the adapter... It's easy to get too excited LOL


 
 Ah, TraceStar I knew you had the adapter  I meant that post as a warning to others who might be tempted to join us in the New Year!


----------



## Makiah S

bobmonkhouse said:


> If by stock 12UA7 you mean the JJ version, they are very different. The stock one can't compete at all. I listened to the Telefunken a lot last night. It sounds exceptionally clean and detailed. The bass and the highs are very realistic. I can't find a flaw there. The mids though are not as sweet and layered as I like them. Classical music sounds great with this tube. Keep in mind, I use it with a low impedance Fidelio X2. I suspect, it'll sound different and probably better with HD650.


 
 I may try it out, I use my Starlight with low Impedance headphones as well 
  
 I am curious, how did you guys stat using the Dual Tube Set ups, what adapters do you like best, an how to you manange the power requirements, or limits of the tube it self


----------



## HOWIE13

astral abyss said:


> What's the best quality adapter to get for the duals?
> 
> I'd love to get hold of a Ken-Rad VT-231, but any of the better ones with matched sections and decent gain cost a fortune.


 
 Adapters sold from Chinese seller-they work fine for me and he has been reliable. Unfortunately he's closed his shop until Jan 6th so can't send link-but if you go on to eBay after Jan 6 and search for 7193 to 6DJ8 and 6J5 to 6DJ8 you should see them both. The first is the Franken-Ember set up with the two wires coming out of the adapter-the second has no wires.
 That K-R is wonderful I find for bass, though sometimes the mids and highs are a bit thin, to my ears-but if it's just bass you crave for- they are excellent.
 It's true they are also really expensive but you should be able to find much cheaper tubes to suit your requirements


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> I may try it out, I use my Starlight with low Impedance headphones as well
> 
> I am curious, how did you guys stat using the Dual Tube Set ups, what adapters do you like best, an how to you manange the power requirements, or limits of the tube it self


 
 I find Starlight is the best suited G1217 amp for low impedance, high sensitive cans too,  though I don't have Sunrise.
 I think for G1217 amps 'Franken-Ember' with dual 7193 or equivalents, was the first single triode dual Octal set up described, followed by dual 6J5's and it's various equivalent single triode Octals.
 The power requirements are the same as the 6SN7's, each single triode has a heater current of 0.3A, so 0.6A for the dual set up, equivalent to the 0.6A of the 6SN7's. Ember 2 or Ember 1, with Super Charger copes easily with this heater current.
 There are no special limits for the tubes, they have a mu of around 20, so medium gain and therefore relatively quiet tubes, and give good movement use of the vol pot. 
 I've used them to good effect in Horizon 3 with supercharger and Starlight as well as Ember.


----------



## HOWIE13

astral abyss said:


> What do you guys like (those that are using them) for the 6SN7's?  I have a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT mouse ear and a CBS-Hytron 6SN7GT currently.  I'm quite happy with them and the sound they have.
> 
> Or if you all think the 6SN7 is not really that good, what's the next step?


 
 It's so hard to generalise because we have our different perceptions of what is good. Only you can answer your question by trial and error. It's fun and also can be exasperating, cost adds up too.
 If you can discover people on these forums with similar musical  tastes to yourself and follow what they think it will be a good start.
 As far as 6SN7's are concerned I find them generally very good, and often better than most, though not all, Noval 9 pins I've heard, again to my ears. Those Tung-Sol's are a favourite of mine too, but the better 6SN7's, get expensive as they are getting rarer to find.
 Dual set ups are generally relatively quite cheap for the quality of sound you can achieve, though you need the adapters (around $30 each). At present they are my favourite set-up- but who knows what 2016 will bring us!


----------



## tonykaz

Has anyone considered : 6H30 or 6C19 dual triode tubes?   
  
 Stereophile just reviewed the BAT $25,000 preamp that has these tubes.  Apparently, Conrad-johnson and Audio Research also use this Tube.  
  
 Kinda pricy at the $35-$100 range.  From Russia ( with love? ) 
  
 Tony in MIchigan 
  
 ps.  I gather that anyone can buy, purchase and own these devices


----------



## connieflyer

howie13 said:


> Adapters sold from Chinese seller-they work fine for me and he has been reliable. Unfortunately he's closed his shop until Jan 6th so can't send link-but if you go on to eBay after Jan 6 and search for 7193 to 6DJ8 and 6J5 to 6DJ8 you should see them both. The first is the Franken-Ember set up with the two wires coming out of the adapter-the second has no wires.
> That K-R is wonderful I find for bass, though sometimes the mids and highs are a bit thin, to my ears-but if it's just bass you crave for- they are excellent.
> It's true they are also really expensive but you should be able to find much cheaper tubes to suit your requirements


 

 This is seller that Howard is talking about......http://www.ebay.com/itm/201359298646?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## connieflyer

The best 6SN7's I have are the Kenrad vt231 black glass and the Sylvania vt231 which is a little better in the upper mids and highs, while the KR's are the best for bass.  Now if Jeremy would make an adapter for dual 6SN7's one of each of these would be great.  The Hytrons I have I did not care for too much.  The dual 6c5g' are a nice tube as well especially if you want to tame the upper frequencies. 6j5's  for me it depended on which manufacturer. The Visseaux are the best I have heard, have two pair now, and the two pair of the 6L5g's which are my second favorite.  Depends too, on what type of  music you are listening to.


----------



## svmusa

connieflyer said:


> The best 6SN7's I have are the Kenrad vt231 black glass and the Sylvania vt231 which is a little better in the upper mids and highs, while the KR's are the best for bass.  Now if Jeremy would make an adapter for dual 6SN7's one of each of these would be great.  The Hytrons I have I did not care for too much.  The dual 6c5g' are a nice tube as well especially if you want to tame the upper frequencies. 6j5's  for me it depended on which manufacturer. The Visseaux are the best I have heard, have two pair now, and the two pair of the 6L5g's which are my second favorite.  Depends too, on what type of  music you are listening to.


 
 I believe dual 6SN7 is not of any benefit, I asked Jeremy and below is his reply.
  
 "The 6sn7 is a dual triode meaning two tubes in one glass bottle. The amplifier is a 2 channel amp so we recommend using a single 6sn7. If you use dual 6sn7's, you would only use part of each tube.
  
 There are adapters to use dual 6j5's which are 1/2 of a 6sn7 but we do not make the adapter at this time. Same thing as a 6sn7, just in two different glass bottles. "


----------



## connieflyer

That was meant as a joke, two best tubes on one adapter..........


----------



## Makiah S

svmusa said:


> I believe dual 6SN7 is not of any benefit, I asked Jeremy and below is his reply.
> 
> "The 6sn7 is a dual triode meaning two tubes in one glass bottle. The amplifier is a 2 channel amp so we recommend using a single 6sn7. If you use dual 6sn7's, you would only use part of each tube.
> 
> There are adapters to use dual 6j5's which are 1/2 of a 6sn7 but we do not make the adapter at this time. Same thing as a 6sn7, just in two different glass bottles. "


 
 hmmmmmmmm 
  
 good to know


----------



## DecentLevi

Yes I would definitely warn against using dual 6SN7's in the Ember, unless you are sure the wiring / electrical is correct


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> This is seller that Howard is talking about......http://www.ebay.com/itm/201359298646?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 
 Yay!
  
 Thanks for helping me out here, Don.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> That was meant as a joke, two best tubes on one adapter..........


 
 I thought you might have been hinting to Jeremy to create a 4 channel amp. LOL.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> The best 6SN7's I have are the Kenrad vt231 black glass and the Sylvania vt231 which is a little better in the upper mids and highs, while the KR's are the best for bass.  Now if Jeremy would make an adapter for dual 6SN7's one of each of these would be great.  The Hytrons I have I did not care for too much.  The dual 6c5g' are a nice tube as well especially if you want to tame the upper frequencies. 6j5's  for me it depended on which manufacturer. The Visseaux are the best I have heard, have two pair now, and the two pair of the 6L5g's which are my second favorite.  Depends too, on what type of  music you are listening to.


 
 Absolutely agree and I would add a couple of my own favorites to the list, the Sylvania 6SN7 ' Bad Boy' and Tung-Sol 6SN7 'Round Plate' which are both excellent all rounders to my very biased ears.


----------



## HOWIE13

tonykaz said:


> Has anyone considered : 6H30 or 6C19 dual triode tubes?
> 
> Stereophile just reviewed the BAT $25,000 preamp that has these tubes.  Apparently, Conrad-johnson and Audio Research also use this Tube.
> 
> ...


 
 I've used a Sovtek 6N30P. It's quite similar to the Russian 6N6P, warm and euphonic. The one I tried was a bit more plummy and filled out (not very articulate this morning-sorry) than the 6N6P.
 I think H in cyrillic script is pronounced N and are used interchangeably for tube designation purposes, as far as I can tell. 
 The 6N30P doesn't have quite enough detail for my needs. It's an OK tube though. There is an apparently wonderful -DR version, but also at a wonderful price.


----------



## tonykaz

Not enough detail?
  
 Geez, I can't imagine Audio Research or BAT able to sustain the high levels of Tube performance that you pursue.  They need a steady supply of consistent quality and therefore have to achieve the "highest common denominator" for their carefully balanced tube performances.
  
 Only needing a single dual-triode allows you Garage1217 folks to select the "One special Best" Tube out of the bunch or batch.   
  
 You have the potential of achieving the greater sonic results, lucky you!   Plus, you don't need to spend that $25,000 up-front charge for admission.   
  
 If this is true, as it logically seems to be, we should be witnessing an Audiophile Migration of Pre-Amp buyers to the Garage1217 designs.
  
 Or am I missing something? 
  
 In fact, you have no worries about the Tube's designation, you can use any old Tube where-as the big Audio Research Preamp mandates the use of only "One" type of tube.  
  
 If this Secret leaks out to the pages of Stereophile and The Absolute Sound all hell s'gonna break loose!
  
 I can see the Front Covers :   "The One Tube Audiophile Revolution"
  
 Tony in Michigan
  
 ps.  I'm sitting here wondering if I'm having a crazy daydream reaction to last evening or am I meandering along a nice path to find a large karat diamond?


----------



## HOWIE13

tonykaz said:


> Not enough detail?
> 
> Geez, I can't imagine Audio Research or BAT able to sustain the high levels of Tube performance that you pursue.  They need a steady supply of consistent quality and therefore have to achieve the "highest common denominator" for their carefully balanced tube performances.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes I do believe we are very privileged to have G1217.
 I'm sure some of those expensive amps are excellent sounding, but as you so correctly imply, you are more likely to be fixed with the sound you are given, with less chance to experiment.
 I had the 6N30P in my LD 2/2 and changed them for Tung-Sol 6SN7's , not the expensive RP's, and it sounded much better and clearer to me. Maybe these expensive amps have that costly DR version. You would hope so at the prices they ask.
 Talking about glossy mags in general, I was reading a few while idling away time waiting for a train last week and never have I read such blatant market advertising masquerading as so called objective reviews.
  
 PS You may need to find that large diamond to pay for all the tube rolling.lol.


----------



## tonykaz

I can't see the "expensive".  
 I can see the investment.  
  
 Any person can or might accurately describe a tube's sonic performance and offer it for Sale as a "Buy it Now" on ebay for a fair price.
  
 Tubes are resell able, I'd even suggest that they all have been purchased and resold a number of times, already.
  
 Tube Rolling is a natural Ebay'ers dream business, each tube is unique and easily describable.  
  
 A B&K tester, a Ember, a pair of Sennheisers and a person is well on their way to a good business format.
  
 Maintaining Integrety is easy:   Simple Motto = "Never Burn the Customer" 
  
 Ebay + Paypal will take 20% off the Top.
  
 Those Blatant Glossys, geez, we in the Auto Industry treat the Mag Reviewers as our Advocates, we'll actually write their review if needed, certainly we provide the important points we need them to write about.  The Reviewer belongs to us, in our Camp, well cared for, getting "long term loaner Cars", free travel to exotic locations for product roll-outs.  The best Reviewers turn out very well written Rubbish, we love them.  The finest Auto Reviewer is Alex Dykes, see his work on YouTube videos, wonderful stuff, we auto industry folks watch his reviews of our and our competitors products. Alex stands alone as a Five Star Car Reviewer, the rest are Harlots .
  
 The best audio gear commentary is found here on Head-Fi by folks like Howie13, connieflyer, AtomicBob and quite a few others.  This place seems like a Campfire where we're all just sitting around sharing the results of our work & discovery.  
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## richard51

i will never sell the Ember it is a quality tube sound tester amp , a  tube tuning sound pre-amp, i will always have the pleasure to see his glowing beauty....and you are right this is one of  the best thread in the universe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  happy new year to all


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Actually, I see myself buying another Ember this year to have a different setup ready for different type of music or different headphones. I'm completely satisfied with the SQ it provides. I'd rather experiment with a different DAC. And spending a few hundred dollars on tubes is not that bad compared to the fun doing it. It's a hobby after all.


----------



## Makiah S

this is a good thread  I'm excited to start rolling tubes my self ^^


----------



## Mechans1

bobmonkhouse said:


> Actually, I see myself buying another Ember this year to have a different setup ready for different type of music or different headphones. I'm completely satisfied with the SQ it provides. I'd rather experiment with a different DAC. And spending a few hundred dollars on tubes is not that bad compared to the fun doing it. It's a hobby after all.


 

 I like the Ember for it's remarkable flexibility and it's lowish price.  If I were going to shoot for another amp I would save up and get an amp with a tubed output section.  You're prolly sick of hearing me say this but it really is a critical element in upgrading your system's sound quality. How much you can afford and you're preferences in SQ and aesthetic come into play after that.  I haven't heard enough new amps to recommend one over another.


----------



## richard51

mechans1 said:


> I like the Ember for it's remarkable flexibility and it's lowish price.  If I were going to shoot for another amp I would save up and get an amp with a tubed output section.  You're prolly sick of hearing me say this but it really is a critical element in upgrading your system's sound quality. How much you can afford and you're preferences in SQ and aesthetic come into play after that.  I haven't heard enough new amps to recommend one over another.


 

 we are never sick to read about truth ....best regards and happy new year


----------



## tonykaz

Tubed output, what amp has that nowadays? 
  
 As a Dealer for Conrad-Johnson back in the 1980s I sold their entire product line, I was also their Premier Line Dealer for my Area.   Based on performance, the stuff didn't sell well against the Solid State products.  They offered a MV-45a, their smallest amp ( which also didn't sell well ) it was a Gem driving Magnepans, I loved it and wish I owned one today ( which, I suppose, I could as they still pop-up on Ebay ), a sweet little amp.  However, outside of Maggies the stuff was not appealing.  Tube Amps have something that Tube people seem to love, maybe it's the smell of dust particles burning on the output tubes or the memory of glowing tubes from childhood.  Hard to figure.  The Cost of Tube gear is way-high.  A preamp with 6 or 8 tubes costs a fortune to re-tube as do the Amps.  
  
 Particularly wonderful tubes can provide a beautiful musical experience but it comes from the Pre-Amp not the Amp.  Output Stages need low output impedence  and high dampening factors which Tubes don't offer.  Transducers drop in impedance as frequency decreases, a capable low frequency transducer can have one or two ohm impedences demanding huge current from the Amp's output stages, tubes won't deliver it, they deliver voltage.  A 600 ohm headphone might be a possibility for tubed outputs or else an Output Transformer.  Is it worth the trouble?, is someone offering an all tube headphone Amp worth owning?  Considering the quality of solid output devices will any designer attempt to better these new devices? 
  
 Today's solid state electronics ( properly designed ) are entirely neutral in their work of amplification, they seem to present no sonic signature at all.  Tubes have a voice, much like Pavarati or Joan Sutherland or any singing artist.   The clever designers are taking advantage of this by designing a low level amp with just one Tube ( voice ) that kinda gives the Amp it's personality, which a person can change by discovering another Tube voice to swap out, hence : Tube Rolling. 
  
 With one of these Tube Rollers a person can be a Clive Davis on the hunt for new Talent. Maybe finding a George Jones or an Elvis or Alison Krauss or Judy Garland.  A person can discover a wide range of musical abilities and keep them close to hand as well as returning to a purely neutral presentation by inserting one of the new Schiit Solid State dual-triodes. 
  
 Today we have the finest Electronics that Consumer Audio ever created, at astonishingly low price points. 
  
 Ain't life grand!
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## richard51

tonykaz said:


> Tubed output, what amp has that nowadays?
> 
> As a Dealer for Conrad-Johnson back in the 1980s I sold their entire product line, I was also their Premier Line Dealer for my Area.   Based on performance, the stuff didn't sell well against the Solid State products.  They offered a MV-45a, their smallest amp ( which also didn't sell well ) it was a Gem driving Magnepans, I loved it and wish I owned one today ( which, I suppose, I could as they still pop-up on Ebay ), a sweet little amp.  However, outside of Maggies the stuff was not appealing.  Tube Amps have something that Tube people seem to love, maybe it's the smell of dust particles burning on the output tubes or the memory of glowing tubes from childhood.  Hard to figure.  The Cost of Tube gear is way-high.  A preamp with 6 or 8 tubes costs a fortune to re-tube as do the Amps.
> 
> ...


 

 thanks for your interesting post.... i  love the Ember for these reason... But i will probably buy  the zotl amp of david Berning  which is the exception in tube technology to the problems you talk about ... I will not sell my Ember because it is a unique amp for trying tube and adapting himself to all headphone.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and i am in love with it ...and yes life is great with 2 ears in these times...


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Quote:


mechans1 said:


> I like the Ember for it's remarkable flexibility and it's lowish price.  If I were going to shoot for another amp I would save up and get an amp with a tubed output section.  You're prolly sick of hearing me say this but it really is a critical element in upgrading your system's sound quality. How much you can afford and you're preferences in SQ and aesthetic come into play after that.  I haven't heard enough new amps to recommend one over another.


 
  
 I decided to try an Ember amp after I'd heard a few very fine setups, and I knew I liked tube sound. To name a few better ones, I'd tried a couple of Stax systems; tube amps - WA2, WA22, WA7 (DAC+amp), Aune T1 (the tube DAC is good, didn't like its amp section), Schiit Gungnir DAC. Those were paired with HD 600, HD 650, HD800, LCD-2, LCD-3, EL-8, Hifiman HE1000, ZMF, and my own Denon AH-MM400 and Fidelio X2 (which BTW has proven to be a very good competitive hp when fed by a good clean source). These were all very fine pieces of equipment offering great sound with their own sound signatures to suite different tastes.
  
 I was curious how much the Ember could offer compared to these amps. To me, it doesn't lack anything. Although, it can't completely match the fine sound of the expensive models, I find the differences marginal, so at this point I don't feel the need to upgrade and don't crave anything better. Adding the opportunity to alter and fine tune the sound signature by tube rolling, makes the Ember unique and of a great value, which can't be achieved by the more expensive amps. Actually, the Ember is pushing me to upgrade as soon as possible my headphones (I like HD 650 and LCD-2) to be able to appreciate its full potential.


----------



## richard51

very impressive support for the ember ... thanks for your post....i think the samething...
  
 p.s. i had the Aune T1 in the past and i think the same ....


----------



## Tunkejazz

tonykaz said:


> Tubed output, what amp has that nowadays?




Valhalla-2? I haven't heard it though, but people thay have it seem to be happy.


----------



## tonykaz

Schiit Valhalla2 , a beauty of an Amp, nearly bought one myself, ideal for Sennheiser 300 ohm headphones and the 600 ohm Beyer.  
  
 That's one, now where's all the rest?
  
 The Valhala2 is not expensive, maybe $350 US, 4 Tubes, multi Voltage Mains, 800miliwatts output for the high impedance headphones, beautiful sounding, a popular Amp at Meets ( people line up to hear it ) and all 4 of it's tubes can be rolled ( which implies a rather high relative cost for Tube rollers ) .   
  
 I still may own one of these things since I'm nearby and the USA cost is so Loooooow.  
  
 Tony in Michigan
  
 ps.  the Valhala2 power output sharply falls-off around 50 ohm impedance and below, it's for the high impedance headphones, a nice little Amp for your Chopin Liszt!


----------



## Mechans1

It is good that this amp is your destination amp.  I unfortunately still have upgraditis..  It Iis an illness that.is expensive and incurable in some cases     Part of this hobby.is getting to, where it   that last 5% and involves diminishing returns. .....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


----------



## connieflyer

Richard51 looked up the review of the Zotl One and was impressed, until I got to the end and saw the price of 7500 pounds!  If you get it you have to let us know how it sounds. looks great.
  
 http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/david-berning-zotl-one-preamp-and-zh-230-power-amp-hi-fi-80/


----------



## Makiah S

connieflyer said:


> Richard51 looked up the review of the Zotl One and was impressed, until I got to the end and saw the price of 7500 pounds!  If you get it you have to let us know how it sounds. looks great.
> 
> http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/david-berning-zotl-one-preamp-and-zh-230-power-amp-hi-fi-80/


 
 I'm also curious as to how it sounds!


----------



## Tunkejazz

Just ordered the Visseaux. Could not resist it any longer.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Just ordered the Visseaux. Could not resist it any longer.


 
 That's the way to start the New Year.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

That's it! The resistance was futile. I got sunk in the rabbit hole too - ordered the Visseaux and a pair of 6L5G Adzam. I'll order the adapter in a couple of days. Cheers to all enablers!
  
 (Edit: typo)


----------



## connieflyer

Congrats to the both of you, I am sure you will love the Visseaux tubes, I just received my second set today and have them in now.  Ten minutes playing time and they sound sweet already.  Might have to order another adapter, to keep 6L5's in so just switch adapters., getting old need to conserve strength!  Now that I have the 700's not going to bother with Jeremy's 650 adapter filter.  Don't need it now, with the 700's.


----------



## richard51

i am viscerally jealous of all of you now with all these visseaux ordering! god damn it!


----------



## Astral Abyss

I've had this amp a week now and I just can't come to grips with how good it sounds.  
  
 Someone help me understand something that's been bothering me.  My Ember is currently running off a Schiit Modi 2 Uber.  Sounds excellent, but I figured I'd go all in so I swapped in my Bifrost Multibit.  Didn't like the sound as much with Ember.  I don't get it.  I've had the Bifrost MB since it came out (upgraded my old Bifrost) and it's been connected to my Lyr all that time.  I have a good feel for the sound signature it has.  The Multibit was a huge improvement over my old Bifrost but hooked up to the Ember I felt it was a step back.  Sounds a bit harsh and sibilant.  Why?  Can't wrap my head around why I would love it on the Lyr 2 but not the Ember.


----------



## DecentLevi

Yeah, a few weeks after I got the Visseaux's I stopped tube rolling, for now anyway. This setup does all genre's under the sun with such splendor and finesse


----------



## Astral Abyss

decentlevi said:


> Yeah, a few weeks after I got the Visseaux's I stopped tube rolling, for now anyway. This setup does all genre's under the sun with such splendor and finesse


 
  
 Which Visseaux's are the correct ones?  I noticed there are *6J5G/VT-94A* and *6J5G/6J5GT* for sale.  They have different specs.  And where does that guy keep his stash?  He sure has a lot of them...


----------



## tonykaz

Troubleshooting Multibit, Ember, Lyr2, M2.
  
 Gonna have to consider interconnects and emails to Schiit and Garage1217.  
  
 Another possibility might be grounding.  
  
 Check mains Voltages, perhaps reversing the plug if you are two prong without the ground post. 
  
 That PC could be the culprit, too. 
  
 Being an Audiophile is being a DIYer.  Help is available though.  
  
 The Bose Wave Radio was the "other" option when we decided to have better.
  
 You WILL find the problem, the result will be wonderful.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## DecentLevi

astral abyss said:


> Which Visseaux's are the correct ones?  I noticed there are *6J5G/VT-94A* and *6J5G/6J5GT* for sale.  They have different specs.  And where does that guy keep his stash?  He sure has a lot of them...


 
 I believe Yitry is the one we've all bought them from. This is the one here. I think some sellers are able to stock up on tubes bulk from their source somehow


----------



## Astral Abyss

tonykaz said:


> Troubleshooting Multibit, Ember, Lyr2, M2.
> 
> Gonna have to consider interconnects and emails to Schiit and Garage1217.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Actually, Tony, that's great info.  Sometimes I'm so busy looking at the details that I miss the big picture.  In this case, I wasn't even thinking about all the "crap" I have plugged into that wall outlet, including a Pioneer receiver, UPS (running a PC, multiple monitors, network switch, printer, USB charger), and power strip running misc junk.  What I need to do is simply take the Ember over to my work room and plug it into the Bifrost over there (that's connected to a Wyrd), and where everything is connected to a power conditioner on it's own circuit.
  
 Thanks for the virtual smack upside the head.
  
 This will have to wait till tomorrow though... already 12:30am here.  Don't want to wake the missus and get a physical smack upside the head.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> I believe Yitry is the one we've all bought them from. This is the one here. I think some sellers are able to stock up on tubes bulk from their source somehow


 
 Yes, I bought from Yitry.
 I see the VT-94 is being sold for nearly 4 times the price from Italy. I'll keep well away from them at that price.


----------



## Tunkejazz

richard51 said:


> i am viscerally jealous of all of you now with all these visseaux ordering! god damn it!



Come on, you are only one click away of being Visseaux-ed. 

EDIT: I have to admit that the price has put me off these tubes for months...


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Valhalla-2? I haven't heard it though, but people thay have it seem to be happy.


 
 Isn't the Project Horizon a tubed output amp?


----------



## HOWIE13

Cancelled, double entry in error-please see above.


----------



## Tunkejazz

The only annoying thing at the moment is that the seller of the adapter is on vacation until the 5th, not processing orders at the moment. I will probably get the tubes much earlier than the adapter, there will be some self-inflicted torture by looking to the tubes on the shelf!


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> The only annoying thing at the moment is that the seller of the adapter is on vacation until the 5th, not processing orders at the moment. I will probably get the tubes much earlier than the adapter, there will be some self-inflicted torture by looking to the tubes on the shelf!


 
 Been there- had to wait for 2 weeks. Then when the adapter did come I broke it trying to turn it and had to wait another 10 days for a replacement.


----------



## Tunkejazz

howie13 said:


> Isn't the Project Horizon a tubed output amp?




It only has one tube, right? If it is part of the output stage then there is no tube in the input stage :-S


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> It only has one tube, right? If it is part of the output stage then there is no tube in the input stage :-S


 
 Right, it only has one tube. The Little Dot 2/2 has 2+2 tubes but I don't know whether any of them are for the input stage. They are called driver and power tubes.


----------



## tonykaz

That hard to track down Little Dot 2/2 Headphone Amp looks like a Tube output ( based on it's output decreasing as impedance decreases ), just as the Schiit Valhala 2's output decreases to lower levels around 50 ohms.   The Little Dot 2/2's output is useful for the 300 & 600 ohm headphones with it's 300ma. output.  The Schiit Valhala 2 does close to 800ma. output by comparison.  
  
 Seems to me that Atomicbob wrote about these little amps, a while back.  
  
 I think Amazon has the Little Dot at $199 US.  
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## HOWIE13

Thanks Tony for that info about the LD.
 I have one and it's great value for the price, though not as versatile or sonically as good for me as the Garage amps-but still a very nice sounding amp.


----------



## Makiah S

astral abyss said:


> Actually, Tony, that's great info.  Sometimes I'm so busy looking at the details that I miss the big picture.  In this case, I wasn't even thinking about all the "crap" I have plugged into that wall outlet, including a Pioneer receiver, UPS (running a PC, multiple monitors, network switch, printer, USB charger), and power strip running misc junk.  What I need to do is simply take the Ember over to my work room and plug it into the Bifrost over there (that's connected to a Wyrd), and where everything is connected to a power conditioner on it's own circuit.
> 
> Thanks for the virtual smack upside the head.
> 
> This will have to wait till tomorrow though... already 12:30am here.  Don't want to wake the missus and get a physical smack upside the head.


 
 Best way to handle that is with a Furman Power Conditioner
  
 I used to use the cheap little Wall Plug thingys, but it made my Dac CRAZY noisy, I swapped into a power conditioner an it really cleaned things up


----------



## Makiah S

tonykaz said:


> That hard to track down Little Dot 2/2 Headphone Amp looks like a Tube output ( based on it's output decreasing as impedance decreases ), just as the Schiit Valhala 2's output decreases to lower levels around 50 ohms.   The Little Dot 2/2's output is useful for the 300 & 600 ohm headphones with it's 300ma. output.  The Schiit Valhala 2 does close to 800ma. output by comparison.
> 
> Seems to me that Atomicbob wrote about these little amps, a while back.
> 
> ...


 
 ugh you know what else, that's the one Hybrid Tube I have not tried, I was REALLY an I mean REALLY close to buying one a while back with like TONS of tubes from a DJ buddy of mine here who used his as a PreAmp out to power speakers


----------



## tonykaz

Feliks in Poland and the Zen Taboo from the Midwest USA are two more Tube'd output headphone Amps.  Probably are more if I check those Bottlehead and Eddie Current guys.
  
So, I guess we have quite a few offerings in Tube'd output headphone amps. 
  
 [size=x-small] I haven't advanced to that[/size][size=x-small] level ( tubed output ) if you want to call it that, I love solid state since my Electrocompaniet days of the mid 1980s.[/size]
  
 [size=x-small]I see these various Tubes as Equalizer devices  (maybe something like magic mirrors at carnivals that make people skinny or fat) of course Tubes make music sound pleasant ( or perhaps I should say: more pleasant ), which I hope the result will be  !    [/size]
  
 [size=x-small]My excitement comes from the concept of a single dual-triode ( or a pair of single triodes ) doing their uniqueness , not a large group of tubes, each contributing it's own flavorings.  I'm not at all certain I could cook up a good result from such a large group ( 4 Tubes ).  [/size]
  
 [size=x-small]Some outfit EAT ( European Audio Team ) is offering ECC88 and ECC803S Tubes ( New? ) along with what looks like an Aluminum heat sink device.  I can't discover their pricing.  These tubes are said to be Mil.spec dual triodes for Audio Uses.  [/size]
  
 [size=x-small]Exploring the performing voice of each of the very many triodes made over these last 100 years seems a daunting task ( but affordable ), an exciting hobby in and of itself.  [/size]I wonder how many folks are participating ? ,  seems like enough to draw the manufacturing efforts of Garage1217 & Schiit.  There must be 100,000 Head-Fi posts on Tube rolling, maybe quite a few more as I quit counting way before I got to the beginning of these type posts. 
  
 It's easy for me to feel that buying Tubes is (far) less financially painful than buying all those new headphones coming out, not to mention all the older ones.  Yet I read of plenty of folks that have owned, or still own, large numbers of expensive headphones, amps, cabling, IEMs, DACs !  
  
 DIY Audio is back, I'm kinda lov'n it.  A nice hobby for an old-geezer like me. 
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## Mechans1

tonykaz said:


> Feliks in Poland and the Zen Taboo from the Midwest USA are two more Tube'd output headphone Amps.  Probably are more if I check those Bottlehead and Eddie Current guys.
> 
> So, I guess we have quite a few offerings in Tube'd output headphone amps.
> 
> ...


 

 I really only wanted the EAT question sorry about that.
 EAT is a company that takes ordinary and frequently very inexpensive  tubes   Chinese run of the mill tubes, they glue on their aluminum anodized heat sink jacket, says abra cadrabra  -this is a very fine, and  selected, expensive tube,  The pricing is absurdly high even if they do select them and I think part of their schtick..  You know some products made intentionally expensive so they can say it's  a  rare and expensive. 
 If for some reason you want a similar  aluminum jacket  Brente Jessee at audiotubes.com has that kind of device for damping. If for some reason you need ultra low noise tubes e.g. in a phono stage check out,  RAM labs . He even has NOS selected and tested low noise tubes , none of his tubes is cheap but compared with EAT he's a bargain. He is Rodger Modjeski  BTW, He makes tube amps with unique  architecture, but I don't think he makes headphone amps.


----------



## tonykaz

Mr. Mechans1, 
  
 Roger Modjesky, yes, I met him some 4 Decades ago, verrrry interesting fellow, he and Art Ferris ( who's Modelus pre-amps I sold aplenty ).
  
 Thanks for mentioning all this.   I had a nice look-over what Roger has to say about the Tube history he's uncovered and now reveals. Again he's proving to be an interesting resource.  hmm.
  
 I do get your point about those ETA valves.  The Aluminum devices seem to be a solution to a problem I've never encountered  : microphonic-tubes.  Audiophiles love little do-dad thingy sorts of add-ons, I've seen folks having their speaker cables off the floor by an elaborate trestle systems, I suppose a little something to wrap around a glass tube would appeal to our neurotic nature, doesn't hurt so what's the harm? I won't buy into it. 
  
 Roger's RAM tube effort is aimed at the low noise Phono Amplifier group, he know's his stuff and can be trusted to pre-select properly, I suppose, for a price.  I'd be relying on him if I was still vinyl.  There seems to be a group of Tube Vendors offering product of widely ranging quality, a reliable such person could be a treasure and going on Tube hunts could become an interesting adventure.  I like the hunt part, seems like fun to me.   And I like the one tube Amplifier concept.
  
 Now that I think about it, the Schiit Valhalla 2 with 4 tubes would not have been an ideal purchase for me, I didn't realize it until Atomicbob was exploring and writing about the Project Sunrise 3.  All of a sudden the twin-triode Amp concept snaped into focus. ( by the way, dual-triodes are different than twin-triodes, just reading Roger's stuff reveals this important distinction ).  
  
 Thanks for writing me about this, 2016 is starting out as another learning curve for this old dog.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## Makiah S

mechans1 said:


> I really only wanted the EAT question sorry about that.
> EAT is a company that takes ordinary and frequently very inexpensive  tubes   Chinese run of the mill tubes, they glue on their aluminum anodized heat sink jacket, says abra cadrabra  -this is a very fine, and  selected, expensive tube,  The pricing is absurdly high even if they do select them and I think part of their schtick..  You know some products made intentionally expensive so they can say it's  a  rare and expensive.
> If for some reason you want a similar  aluminum jacket  Brente Jessee at audiotubes.com has that kind of device for damping. If for some reason you need ultra low noise tubes e.g. in a phono stage check out,  RAM labs . He even has NOS selected and tested low noise tubes , none of his tubes is cheap but compared with EAT he's a bargain. He is Rodger Modjeski  BTW, He makes tube amps with unique  architecture, but I don't think he makes headphone amps.


 
  
  


tonykaz said:


> Mr. Mechans1,
> 
> Roger Modjesky, yes, I met him some 4 Decades ago, verrrry interesting fellow, he and Art Ferris ( who's Modelus pre-amps I sold aplenty ).
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I agree that website was golden! I might wind up just buying the StarLight I have an getting some tubes to roll into it!


----------



## Astral Abyss

howie13 said:


> Yes, I bought from Yitry.
> I see the VT-94 is being sold for nearly 4 times the price from Italy. I'll keep well away from them at that price.


 
  
 Looks like Yitry ran out.  I sure hope he gets more at that same price.


----------



## TraceStar

Ran out! The horror! I've been eyeing the visseaux but had to wait till my budget allows. Sure hope he gets stock from somewhere 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Astral Abyss

tracestar said:


> Ran out! The horror! I've been eyeing the visseaux but had to wait till my budget allows. Sure hope he gets stock from somewhere
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


 
  
 I know.  I'm going to go cry myself to sleep on my pillow now... if you'll excuse me...


----------



## tommo21

Don't get too downhearted yet. Get a pair of National 6L5G. They're very close to the Visseaux.


----------



## HOWIE13

tommo21 said:


> Don't get too downhearted yet. Get a pair of National 6L5G. They're very close to the Visseaux.


 
 Tommo21 is absolutely correct about 6L5's -and they can be just as suited for certain music and cans.
 I've only had experience of NU 6L5's but I have some RCA's coming so will report whether they are similar or not.
 Another to consider, which has something of the vivid sound of the Visseaux, and retains the sweetness of the treble, is the Pinnacle, and they are still available and a reasonable price too.
  
  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6J5GT-PINNACLE-NOS-/260747100869?hash=item3cb5bd02c5


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> I agree that website was golden! I might wind up just buying the StarLight I have an getting some tubes to roll into it!


 
 You can play with a few Op amps with Starlight too. It's a great amp to have fun with, and simultaneously enjoy very good sound.


----------



## Tunkejazz

What about these? In the first link one of the bottles is slightly smaller but...

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Paire-triodes-appariees-56-VISSEAUX-Amplification-audio-NOS-NIB-100-OK-RARE-/291653498993?nav=SEARCH

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Paire-triodes-appariees-6J5G-VISSEAUX-NOS-en-rouleaux-de-guerre-100-OK-/291653498989?nav=SEARCH

EDIT: I must have ordered one of the last pairs from Yitry (but not the last, he had more after I ordered), I hope he gets more!
EDIT2: Don't use the first link!


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> What about these? In the first link one of the bottles is slightly smaller but...
> 
> http://m.ebay.com/itm/Paire-triodes-appariees-56-VISSEAUX-Amplification-audio-NOS-NIB-100-OK-RARE-/291653498993?nav=SEARCH
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm sure Yitry had 124 at one time. It might be worth contacting him to see if he has any more, meantime those two above look the real deal.
 Two of mine are also slightly different sized bottles-but sound isn't obviously different. Good luck.
  
EDIT: SEE SNEAKY415  POST BELOW # 1454. THE FIRST LINK IS A VISSEAUX 56 AND NOT COMPATIBLE WITH STOCK EMBER/EMBER 2.


----------



## TraceStar

Actually, I'm happy with my zenith 6J5s but since no one else seem to be using it, there's no point of reference to compare to. I may check out the Viss in a month or so if there are any reasonable ones around.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Astral Abyss

Anyone tried any of the Mullard 6J5s?


----------



## TraceStar

Not that I've seen. I admit to buying the coke bottle shaped ones coz of how it looks LOL.
Mullard 6J5s are straight tubes so I just skipped. 

They should be good based on their other tubes. But as usual, someone needs to try first.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## sneaky415

tunkejazz said:


> What about these? In the first link one of the bottles is slightly smaller but...
> 
> http://m.ebay.com/itm/Paire-triodes-appariees-56-VISSEAUX-Amplification-audio-NOS-NIB-100-OK-RARE-/291653498993?nav=SEARCH
> 
> ...


 
  
 The first link is for Visseaux 56. It requires a different adapter than for 6j5g, it also requires an external power supply for the heater  since it is 2.5 volts. I actually bought four Visseaux 56 from the same guy. It is a really nice tube, a little bit darker sounding but the bass is superb. Very good with live performances. One of my favourite tubes along with GEC L63 and a few others.
  
 I am now a bit uncertain if I will ever buy the Visseux 6j5g due to its price and availability, I also have plenty of other tubes in my inventory to play with.


----------



## tonykaz

RetroValves
  
 Somebody on the Schiit Site mentioned the Solid State Tubes that Schiit offer and mentioned the Retrovalves that are now being offered to the Pro-Audio Guitar Amp owners that use the 12AX7.   Retrovalves cost $6 to $11 depending on desired gain, they seem to have LED color lights for each of the three gains offered. They are said to present the same sound quality of Vacuum Tubes.  
  
 What will they think of next, driverless cars? 
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## Astral Abyss

I ha





tonykaz said:


> RetroValves
> 
> Somebody on the Schiit Site mentioned the Solid State Tubes that Schiit offer and mentioned the Retrovalves that are now being offered to the Pro-Audio Guitar Amp owners that use the 12AX7.   Retrovalves cost $6 to $11 depending on desired gain, they seem to have LED color lights for each of the three gains offered. They are said to present the same sound quality of Vacuum Tubes.
> 
> ...




I have the Schiit LISST tubes but am not brave enough to try them in the Ember.


----------



## HOWIE13

astral abyss said:


> I ha
> I have the Schiit LISST tubes but am not brave enough to try them in the Ember.


 
 I would definitely ask Jeremy about those if I had them.


----------



## connieflyer

tracestar said:


> Not that I've seen. I admit to buying the coke bottle shaped ones coz of how it looks LOL.
> Mullard 6J5s are straight tubes so I just skipped.
> 
> They should be good based on their other tubes. But as usual, someone needs to try first.
> ...


 

 I have two pair of Visseaux 6j5's and one pair of the Sylvania straight glass tubes, listening to the Sylvania's last night for a couple of hours, they sound quite good. I still prefer the 6L5's over the 6j5's except for the Visseaux 6j5.  The 6L5's are very good and easy to find at a good price.


----------



## Tunkejazz

sneaky415 said:


> The first link is for Visseaux 56. It requires a different adapter than for 6j5g, it also requires an external power supply for the heater  since it is 2.5 volts. I actually bought four Visseaux 56 from the same guy. It is a really nice tube, a little bit darker sounding but the bass is superb. Very good with live performances. One of my favourite tubes along with GEC L63 and a few others.
> 
> I am now a bit uncertain if I will ever buy the Visseux 6j5g due to its price and availability, I also have plenty of other tubes in my inventory to play with.



Thanks sneaky415!
I didn't notice those 56, although the price was significantly lower than with usual visseaux 6j5.

HOWIE13, I am thinking about your RCA 6G8C  as they are cheap. Would this adapter work?http://m.ebay.com/itm/1pc-6F8G-6C8G-TO-ECC88-6922-6N6-6N11-tube-adapter-CNC-Copper-body-/191554107223?nav=SEARCH
Or should I get the one to 6sn7?


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Thanks @sneaky415!
> I didn't notice those 56, although the price was significantly lower than with usual visseaux 6j5.
> 
> @HOWIE13, I am thinking about your RCA 6G8C  as they are cheap. Would this adapter work?http://m.ebay.com/itm/1pc-6F8G-6C8G-TO-ECC88-6922-6N6-6N11-tube-adapter-CNC-Copper-body-/191554107223?nav=SEARCH
> Or should I get the one to 6sn7?


 
 Hi Tunkejazz
  
 Yes, that's the adapter I use. It saves using a second connection which would be necessary if you use the 6SN7 adapter. 
 I very much like this Franken Jr set up.
  
 Having now listened extensively to both my tubes, the RCA 6C8G has a clean and clear sound, with a slight upper mid emphasis, and the RCA 6F8G has a warm, smoother sound with a deep, extended bass. The 6C8G suits my HD650 very well and the 6F8G my AKG's and DT1770. 
 Both tubes are (at present) reasonably priced and the same adapter does for both.
  
 PS. There's also the experience of CZ4A #1276 using different manufacturers' tubes, and sneaky415 #1277 -apologies to any other posters about these tubes I haven't seen yet.


----------



## Tunkejazz

Thanks Howard, very informative!

I am looking around for both types. Any experience with the ken-rads?


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Thanks Howard, very informative!
> 
> I am looking around for both types. Any experience with the ken-rads?


 
 Sorry-don't know about the Ken-Rad's.
 The two RCA types I have do compliment each other very well and provide good sound with a variety of different cans.
 Note that the higher gain 6C8G does cause some noise when turning the vol pot, which if you prefer to avoid is eradicated by invoking Ember's input caps.
 I don't bother though.


----------



## Tunkejazz

HOWIE13 I really appreciate your comments and your positive attitude towards tube rolling in general: you always find the strength of each tube without focusing in weaknesses. 

Thanks a lot!


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> @HOWIE13 I really appreciate your comments and your positive attitude towards tube rolling in general: you always find the strength of each tube without focusing in weaknesses.
> 
> Thanks a lot!


 
 Thanks Tunkejazz
 It's nice to explore new tubes and share experiences with others but, by way of a change, today I've tried a tube which even I am struggling to say anything positive about.
 It's the RCA 6L5G.
 They arrived this morning and I've played them for about 4 hours. Admittedly they're up against stiff opposition from the National Unions but even if I hadn't heard the NU's I would still say these RCA's have a claustrophobically narrow sound stage, dynamics as flat as a pancake, and a brazen, metallic top. The bass is firm, not particularly extended and the mids quite clear and a bit forward.
 They sound like a poor 60's transistor radio.
 I switched channels and there was no difference and I checked them on the tester and they read well within expected usable limits.
 I used several different cans with no improvement in overall sound, even the HD650's sounded strident.
 So maybe they are faulty, maybe they need more time to burn in but at present they are not pleasant for me to listen to. I'll leave them running for a day or two and see if they improve but I think I'll be sticking with the excellent NU's.


----------



## connieflyer

Howie13, just wondering how much time you put in with the 7193's now that you have the 6j5' and others?  Thinking of putting these up for sale with a bunch of other tubes, seems I cannot get away from the 6k5's and 6L5's.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Howie13, just wondering how much time you put in with the 7193's now that you have the 6j5' and others?  Thinking of putting these up for sale with a bunch of other tubes, seems I cannot get away from the 6k5's and 6L5's.


 
 Well that's a coincidence because I decided today to spend a bit more time with my Horizon3 and some 7193's were already in and biased from weeks ago before I bought Ember.
 I listened for a couple of hours and was very impressed with the sound- more vibrant than I expected and the strings had lovely timbre. I haven't yet tried 6J5 AND 6L5 in Horizon but yes, like you, I use the 6J5/6L5's almost exclusively in Ember, except when trying out new tubes.
 I guess it comes down to whether you will ever need your 7193's for any other future amp or whether your ears or musical tastes will change over the next few years which will bring you back to the 7193's. If you are pretty well settled in your musical taste and sound then even if you sell them you could always re-purchase at a later date, if need be.
 My problem is I'm too lazy to put anything up for sale so everything just accumulates.


----------



## Tunkejazz

The 7193s were very cheap so I will be keeping them, there aren't so many sellers around.

But I still need to get rid of half of my Syl. Bad Boys


----------



## CZ4A

tunkejazz said:


> Thanks Howard, very informative!
> 
> I am looking around for both types. Any experience with the ken-rads?


 

 I have a K-R 6C8G. I haven't had a good listen to it yet (it was especially buzzy with the 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter). If you get the 6F8G to 6DJ8 adapter, please let us know if you get any weird noises.
  
 Anyways, I have had a good listen to my Raytheon JAN 6F8G.
  

  
 I'm still getting used to the lingo, so YMMV. I used my K7XX cans with the Raytheon. I do still get the buzzing in the left channel, but it is low enough to not need my grounding wire hack.
  
 The actual character of this tube is transparent and fairly balanced. It's one of the more neutral tubes I've listened to. I remember saying earlier I thought this tube had punchy bass. I need to amend that to say the _attack_ is punchy - it's not as bass-heavy as I might have made it out to be. The Raytheon is much faster than the RCA 6F8G. Sounds hit hard when they arrive but don't linger. There's no sign of sibilance or heavy reverb. The soundstage is nice and spacious. Overall, I like this tube much more than the RCA.


----------



## HOWIE13

cz4a said:


> I have a K-R 6C8G. I haven't had a good listen to it yet (it was especially buzzy with the 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter). If you get the 6F8G to 6DJ8 adapter, please let us know if you get any weird noises.
> 
> Anyways, I have had a good listen to my Raytheon JAN 6F8G.
> 
> ...


 
  That's another one for my wish list then.


----------



## Makiah S

cz4a said:


> I have a K-R 6C8G. I haven't had a good listen to it yet (it was especially buzzy with the 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter). If you get the 6F8G to 6DJ8 adapter, please let us know if you get any weird noises.
> 
> Anyways, I have had a good listen to my Raytheon JAN 6F8G.
> 
> ...


 
 ooh that sounds good. I might have to give it a shot


----------



## richard51

At the beginning, without any break-in, the  metal westinghouse 6J5 tube sound more detailed, more clean in the bass and highs and in all the spectrum, more imaging, more silent, than my ken-rad 7193.... I am very happy and will not go back to the 7193 that i have loved more than the 6sn7 before them...i had the great luck to have always an evident better sound with each upgrade in tube thanks to you all here my friends...I wait for 2 national union 6L5G and  i think that will be interesting....thanks to all of you here


----------



## connieflyer

Surprisingly the 7193's will still sound good to you later on, after the newness of the 6j5's settle in. I have a pair of Sylvania 6j5 straight glass tubes, that the more I listen to them the better I like them.  The 6L5g.s are still a little better to me, but he 6j5 Visseaux tubes just do it all.  Swap in the 7193's in a month or so and see if you still like what they sound like.  You loved them before, and I will bet you will love them again.


----------



## richard51

i am certain that you are right ... the sound of the 7193 is very good BUT in my system and headphone the 6j5 is more _silent_ and with more clean sound, hence it is not day and night but  this is not a subtle difference,this is there, very  really there, i will listen back to the 7193 some day for sure but the 6j5 is better for me...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the cleanliness is unmistakable,the soundstage is also more defined...


connieflyer said:


> Surprisingly the 7193's will still sound good to you later on, after the newness of the 6j5's settle in. I have a pair of Sylvania 6j5 straight glass tubes, that the more I listen to them the better I like them.  The 6L5g.s are still a little better to me, but he 6j5 Visseaux tubes just do it all.  Swap in the 7193's in a month or so and see if you still like what they sound like.  You loved them before, and I will bet you will love them again.


----------



## Astral Abyss

Well, I did it... just ordered Franken Jr and Franken Ember adapters.  Made an offer one of those Raytheon JAN 6F8Gs that Mshenay listed above (this one is a VT-99 version).  
  
 Maybe I'll get lucky and find a couple of the Visseaux 6J5s at a reasonable price soon.
  
  
 I'm listening to a 1961 Valvo CCa right now.  I know, blasphemy, an E88CC 9-pin tube.  Funny thing how this is one of the best of the best tubes and with the Ember it attracts no interest.  In my very short time rolling tubes in the Ember, it seems that the 8 pin tubes have a bigger, fuller sound to them.  I don't really know how to explain it... but I like the sound.  It's addictive.


----------



## connieflyer

Nothing wrong with rolling in 9 pin tubes, the Ember was designed around them.  I still like them, occasionally, just have to get back to the Visseaux's  after awhile. Never concern yourself with what others think, if you like them, you are the only one that has to listen to them.  Good luck with these.


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


> Nothing wrong with rolling in 9 pin tubes, the Ember was designed around them.  I still like them, occasionally, just have to get back to the Visseaux's  after awhile. Never concern yourself with what others think, if you like them, you are the only one that has to listen to them.  Good luck with these.


 

 your opinion is very important to me , i valued all the impression of all the guy here, but all headphone,cable,dac have different synergy together, and no tube in the same family sound exactly like an other... all that made one experience one of a kind...this is my point... I cannot go back now to the 7193 because it is not a choice between two different  flavored sound for me it is the  difference between a more clean sound  and a less clean one *in my system gear ...*i like to read all your posts connieflyer thank you for that...


----------



## connieflyer

If these are a definete improvement then of course stay with them. On my system the 7193's still sound good but not as good as the 6j5's.  Everyone's hearing and gear is different and that causes a conflict every now and then, but we have a good time comparing this and that, and it gives us an idea, even if we hear different, what we may like as others explore the different combinations. If you can try the National Union 6L5's, and maybe the Slyvania 6j5 straight tubes. Nice sound. So far all my tubes have dead silent background, but a few, have a little microphonics.


----------



## richard51

connieflyer said:


> On my system the 7193's still sound good but not as good as the 6j5's.


 
 this is my experience... i listen now to them for 2 hours and all is better for me.... i cannot wait for the 6L5... How will it be ? all of you are almost unanimous that the 6L5 is slighly better thant 6J5  except Visseaux...Ouf ! i cannot wait because for my ears and gear the difference was great now already...I will buy some Visseaux in 8 month impossible before that...It is because of your testimony that i made the plunge in these tube... thanks very much  to you


----------



## connieflyer

The only 6L5's I have are a couple of pair of the National Union, so can not speak to other brands, but they are very good. Hope you like them.


----------



## TraceStar

astral abyss said:


> Well, I did it... just ordered Franken Jr and Franken Ember adapters.  Made an offer one of those Raytheon JAN 6F8Gs that Mshenay listed above (this one is a VT-99 version).
> 
> Maybe I'll get lucky and find a couple of the Visseaux 6J5s at a reasonable price soon.
> 
> ...


 
  
 One of the tubes I liked most was a russian 6N23P which is pretty much the russian equivalent to the E88CC. It went bad in 1 channel after a week tho LOL so I could never compare them with my newer tubes.


----------



## Tunkejazz

I can vouch for the 6N23-P especially for the "single wire" versions. One of the clearest sounding tubes I have tried.


----------



## Tunkejazz

I have ordered the RCA 6C8G, got it very cheap. But I would like to try one more. Those comments about the Raytheon seem very appealing. I would say the Bad Boys have a very fast bass also and I like it a lot. But I am also tempted to go for a ken-rad, the Raytheons are not cheap!


----------



## CZ4A

tunkejazz said:


> I have ordered the RCA 6C8G, got it very cheap. But I would like to try one more. Those comments about the Raytheon seem very appealing. I would say the Bad Boys have a very fast bass also and I like it a lot. But I am also tempted to go for a ken-rad, the Raytheons are not cheap!


 
  
 I found reviews on the K-R 6C8G and K-R, Sylvania, and Raytheon 6F8Gs on Tube Maze:
  
 http://www.tubemaze.info/ken-rad-6c8g-round-plates/
  
 http://www.tubemaze.info/tag/6f8g/


----------



## Astral Abyss

tracestar said:


> One of the tubes I liked most was a russian 6N23P which is pretty much the russian equivalent to the E88CC. It went bad in 1 channel after a week tho LOL so I could never compare them with my newer tubes.


 
  
 I have a pair of the 1975 Reflektor 6N23P SWGP silver shields. rb2013 found me a matched date and output pair last year.  He really hooked me up and I'll probably keep them forever.  They're pretty darn amazing... extremely fast, clear, and detailed, no noise at all... but stupid expensive.  It's one of the reasons I'm moving away from the Lyr 2 amp and its 6DJ8/6922 tube type.  They're too popular, too expensive and getting harder to find.  I've having more fun with the Ember and its wider variety of obscure tubes at reasonable prices that sound as good, or better, than the 6922 tubes.
  
 The best part is that all my 6DJ8/6922/E88CC/CCa tubes work great in the Ember too, and I only need one tube, so my pairs will last twice as long.  It's a win/win.
  
  
 EDIT:  As far as it going bad, I'm not surprised.  The Russian tube sellers are notoriously shady.  rb2013 is the only person I'd trust to buy them from.  He does all the sorting for us.  He puts a selection up on ebay occasionally but it's best to PM him if you're interested it trying any more.  Sine we only need 1 instead of a pair, it'll be easier for him to find what you want.
  
 EDIT to the EDIT:  Also, there's a huge difference in sound among the Russian Reflektor and Voskhod tubes based on year.  I have some 1979 Voskhod Rockets that don't sound nearly as good as my Reflektors.  Also a difference between the silver shields and gray shield models.   The 1974 and 1975 Reflektors are pretty much the best.  Silver shields top the gray shields but both are good.  The 1974s have been known to have a deeper low end but a bit less soundstage than the 1975s.  They also cost a lot less.  The Voskhod Rockets are a great choice also if you want to dabble without spending a fortune.  Check out this link for the Voskhod rankings:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/549508/schiit-lyr-the-tube-rolling-thread/8595


----------



## Tunkejazz

I just checked, mine are Reflektor 6N23P from 1974 with gray shields single wire.

Edit: I paid $35 + shipping for a pair, I think I was quite lucky.


----------



## Tunkejazz

cz4a said:


> I have a K-R 6C8G. I haven't had a good listen to it yet (it was especially buzzy with the 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter). If you get the 6F8G to 6DJ8 adapter, please let us know if you get any weird noises.
> 
> Anyways, I have had a good listen to my Raytheon JAN 6F8G.
> 
> ...



But then...what about the bass amount? I understand it is not bass-light nor bass-heavy. Just the "right-amount" of good quality bass?  -> EDIT: no point to ask that question, your explanation was great already.


----------



## Astral Abyss

tunkejazz said:


> I just checked, mine are Reflektor 6N23P from 1974 with gray shields single wire.
> 
> Edit: I paid $35 + shipping for a pair, I think I was quite lucky.


 
  
 I believe rb2013 normally sells those for $89 a pair.  $35 is a great price, although, if one of yours died after a week, maybe not so lucky.  Those are some of the best Reflektors out there that you have.


----------



## Tunkejazz

astral abyss said:


> I believe rb2013 normally sells those for $89 a pair.  $35 is a great price, although, if one of yours died after a week, maybe not so lucky.  Those are some of the best Reflektors out there that you have.


 
 I can only confirm your comments and I would encourage anyone with an Ember to try these tubes if finances allow. My 6N23P get a lot of time on the Ember-2 along with the Syl. Bad Boys, and IMHO overall both sound better than the 7193 (more clarity, better extension in both ends), although with a smaller soundstage than the latter.
  
 Now I am waiting to receive the Visseaux and the RCA 6C8G (with the corresponding adapters), let's see if I fall in love with the new flavor they give to the sound!


----------



## richard51

After 8 hours of listening with the metal tube westinghouse 6J5 on the moonsoon speakers and with my he 400 Hifiman  i can confirm that with my gear and my ears there is no comparison with the 7193 tube i had love for the last months...The 6J5 tube transform completely not only the soundstage but the cleanliness of all the spectrum made listenable for me some music i had not listen very much... For the choral music it was way better because each voice is more distinct and generally any group of instrument more distinctly heard...I thank all of you for that discovery...It seems  that there is no end in sight with the Ember...


----------



## DecentLevi

Good achievement Richard... don't hate on me for this, but... there's still better out there! I think all of us who have tried the Coke bottle shaped 6J5's have agreed the soundstage is larger. Then there's the recently infamous Visseaux that has me wallowing in sonic bliss and purity for weeks on end for both my electrostat and balanced amps without any desire to roll other tubes! 
  
 Now on the other hand I'm not going out and saying this is the end-all, be-all. Because while the Viss. does ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong, I think there just may be something out there that just may surpass the natural realm... something I got cookin' top secret, and the possibility that from sheer random experimentation with the vast array of untapped other 6J5's, something better may be quantifiable.


----------



## richard51

decentlevi said:


> Good achievement Richard... don't hate on me for this, but... there's still better out there! I think all of us who have tried the Coke bottle shaped 6J5's have agreed the soundstage is larger. Then there's the recently infamous Visseaux that has me wallowing in sonic bliss and purity for weeks on end for both my electrostat and balanced amps without any desire to roll other tubes!
> 
> Now on the other hand I'm not going out and saying this is the end-all, be-all. Because while the Viss. does ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong, I think there just may be something out there that just may surpass the natural realm... something I got cookin' top secret, and the possibility that from sheer random experimentation with the vast array of untapped other 6J5's, something better may be quantifiable.


 

 i hate you but i thank you for all infos 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 by the way i wait for my coke bottle shape national union 6L5 tube ...Alas! i cannot afford the Visseaux now if i dont organize a bank robbery...


----------



## Makiah S

ugh my wallet is already crying lol an I only have a loaner Starlight II


----------



## tommo21

I'm on a  "roll" again. Ordered me a 6F8G adapter and the following tubes:
  
 Raytheon 6F8G
 Tung-Sol 6F8G(if I win the auction)
 National Union 6C8G
  
 Franken Jr here I come


----------



## Tunkejazz

tommo21 said:


> I'm on a  "roll" again. Ordered me a 6F8G adapter and the following tubes:
> 
> Raytheon 6F8G
> Tung-Sol 6F8G(if I win the auction)
> ...



Congrats! Looking forward to hearing your impressions. I also managed to source a Raytheon  

I am done for a while!


----------



## Mechans1

Mr. Decent Levi,
 It always troubles me to see the word infamous used incorrectly.  Here is a typical dictionary definition for infamous.
infamous   

   [in-fuh-muh s]  /ˈɪn fə məs/ 
 SpellSyllables


 Synonyms 
 Examples 
 Word Origin 
 
   adjective 
 1.  having an extremely bad reputation:  an infamous city.


 2.  deserving of or causing an evil reputation; shamefully malign; detestable:  an infamous deed.


 3.  Law.  
deprived of certain rights as a citizen, as a consequence of conviction of certain offenses.
of or relating to offenses involving such deprivation.
 I am not a word Nazi I make mistakes all of the time.  My grammar isn't very good either, but I want people to know what infamous actually means despite sounding like it should have a different definition.
  
  
 Well you guys can keep loading the Ember with fabulous and expensive tubes, but at some point,, I don't know when,  you will find the limit the refinements in tube choices can  deliver due to the electronics in the amp.  That is not saying you can't improve the SQ a great deal with tube rolling.  I have found a pair of really nice 1966 NOS  Marconi ECC82/12AU7 made at the Madrid plant. 
 Given that a 12AU7 is the "stock" tube and one which  the proprietor uses in the Ember some of the time.  (He told me he likes  a good RCA clear top from time to time.) 
 I am curious about thie use of old separate triodes, I want to try it myself.  Has anyone found another single triode we might try? I guess the adapter guy is back from vacation.
 A quick story, I saw a Bendix branded 6SN7 GT for sale on Ebay and put a $9.95 bid on it.  I was surprised when I got it and couldn't understand the lack of interest in it -until I nnoticed the EIA code on it 280 which means Raytheon.  So I got a used Raytheon for $14.00 with shipping.  It sounds pretty good actually.


----------



## sneaky415

> Originally Posted by *Mechans1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Given that a 12AU7 is the "stock" tube and one which  the proprietor uses in the Ember some of the time.  (He told me he likes  a good RCA clear top from time to time.)
> I am curious about thie use of old separate triodes, I want to try it myself.  *Has anyone found another single triode we might try?* I guess the adapter guy is back from vacation.
> A quick story, I saw a Bendix branded 6SN7 GT for sale on Ebay and put a $9.95 bid on it.  I was surprised when I got it and couldn't understand the lack of interest in it -until I nnoticed the EIA code on it 280 which means Raytheon.  So I got a used Raytheon for $14.00 with shipping.  It sounds pretty good actually.


 
  
 There is another adapter that I don't think has been discussed in this forum. It is the 6sn7 to 37/76 adapter. You can use it with Jeremy's 6sn7 adapter, then you can use type 37 or type 76 tube in the Ember. It is a nice tube but not better than the 6j5g imho but it could be fun for someone who enjoys tube rolling. I have some Sylvania 76 tubes that i like to plug in once in a while just to get some variation.
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-RCA-76-TO-6SN7GT-B65-CV1988-tube-converter-adapter-/201398487020?hash=item2ee44907ec:g:XOcAAOSwyQtVvETC


----------



## HOWIE13

tommo21 said:


> I'm on a  "roll" again. Ordered me a 6F8G adapter and the following tubes:
> 
> Raytheon 6F8G
> Tung-Sol 6F8G(if I win the auction)
> ...


 
  I've only got the RCA versions of Franken Jr, which I find very good in their different ways, so I'm very much looking forward to your impressions too.


----------



## DecentLevi

@Mechans1 I see now, the word infamous actually refers to a negative thing - which however is actually a vocabulary rather than a grammar error. 
  
 True that there is a theoretical limit to how far you can enhance the sound of an amp with tube rolling, but that limit is not black & white; it is set only from the 'ear of the beholder'. Occasionally in the tube rolling hobby, fluke setups are discovered which are able to really take the amp's sound to new heights that are beyond what anybody could have previously guessed. 
  
 The Ember amp is set up to accept dual triode tubes, so if using single triodes you would need to run them in dual mode using a dual adapter in order to get a stereo signal; as far as I understand.
  
 I for one, believe there is still untapped potential from tubes that have been dormant for decades - waiting for somebody to finally put them to use! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I think most of us here prefer to be an optimist.


----------



## HOWIE13

In answer to Mechans 1's apposite question ' *has anyone found another single triode we might try*' I have two on the go in Ember and Horizon3:
  
 Zenith and Ken-Rad  6P5's, and Hytron E1148/VT232's. My impressions are similar in both amps.
  
 The E1148 looks like a 7193 but has a longer bottle, so our helpful Chinese seller made a new adapter with a longer wire so they wouldn't stretch too much. 
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Dual-E1148-VT232-CV1135-TO-6CG7-6FQ7-ECC88-6DJ8-tube-converter-adapter-/191763536185?hash=item2ca5ff5939:g:XgYAAOSw3KFWdlyy
  
 I could still use the 7193 Franken Ember adapter but the wires were quite tight and I was concerned the soldered connections might eventually break.
  
 The 6P5's, which I believe predate the 6J5's, are Zenith, which is a coke bottle shape, and the Ken-Rad is a straight bottle.
  
 The Zenith is fairly fast, dynamic and very sweet sounding-a very good tube- but unfortunately it has quite a loud, intrusive hum which I can't at present remove by the usual earthing methods. I have another coming to see if it's just these two tubes. Hence I hesitated posting about them as I'm unsure if the hum is universal to this tube type, but if it's not then it's a fine sounding tube to me.
  
 The Ken-Rad 6P5's don't hum and are actually very quiet. They are warm and glowing, a fraction down in dynamics, with a prominent bass. The mids and treble don't suffer though and the whole sound is refined and well ordered in a holographic sound stage. Some might find it too polite but I like them for solo piano and late night listening to relax and unwind. They won't get your adrenaline going though, and hence I don't think they will suit large scale orchestral music or a reverberant church acoustic. Nor are they likely to suit warm/bass heavy cans. They do go well with my K701's and DT 1770's though.
  
 The E1148 was apparently used extensively in British Army tank radios in WW2- the 'E' designating 'Export' . Many were manufactured by Hytron, and there is a similar tube labeled VT232. I can't differentiate the two by their sound. This is a great tube to my ears and has many of the characteristics of the Visseaux. Without going into excessive hyperbolic jargon I would describe them as perfectly balanced with excellent instrument detail, separation, texturing and imaging. Timbre is very good too. They are quiet tubes with the usual big, holographic sound stage we have come to associate with these dual single triode set ups.
 If you can't source a Visseaux I would say these, together with the 6L5's, would be worthy alternatives to try.
  
 Here's some pics:
  

  
 Zenith 6P5 in Horizon  
  
  
  

  
 Hytron E1148 in Horizon (note the horizontal plates, each of which glows from both ends, as below)
  

  
  
  
  

  
 Ken Rad 6P5 in Ember.


----------



## DecentLevi

Also the 'top secret' tube I was planning to give a try has been debunked, for the reason below which was given to me be Jeremy. I think this info. is also useful to consider when experimenting with new tubes:
  
 (The Ember's heat current) "Maximum output is 1A with a little overhead. At the very very best with modification we can do 1.5A"
 If running dual tubes you must make sure each tube does not draw more than approx. 0.6A at the most, at risk of damaging the heater circuit.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Also the 'top secret' tube I was planning to give a try has been debunked, for the reason below which was given to me be Jeremy. I think this info. is also useful to consider when experimenting with new tubes:
> 
> (The Ember's heat current) "Maximum output is 1A with a little overhead. At the very very best with modification we can do 1.5A"
> If running dual tubes you must make sure each tube does not draw more than approx. 0.6A at the most, at risk of damaging the heater circuit.


 
 That's a shame, but there will be others.


----------



## richard51

sneaky415 said:


> There is another adapter that I don't think has been discussed in this forum. It is the 6sn7 to 37/76 adapter. You can use it with Jeremy's 6sn7 adapter, then you can use type 37 or type 76 tube in the Ember. It is a nice tube but not better than the 6j5g imho but it could be fun for someone who enjoys tube rolling. I have some Sylvania 76 tubes that i like to plug in once in a while just to get some variation.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-RCA-76-TO-6SN7GT-B65-CV1988-tube-converter-adapter-/201398487020?hash=item2ee44907ec:g:XOcAAOSwyQtVvETC


 

 how do you describe the sound of the 76 versus the 6J5 or others ?


----------



## sneaky415

richard51 said:


> how do you describe the sound of the 76 versus the 6J5 or others ?


 
  
 I would say that the 76 and 6j5g are related and that the sound depends more on the brand of the tube. The Sylvania 76 has got that big sound with good bass but they sound a bit veiled to me. I bought them as NOS so maybe they just need some burn in time.
  
 I have read that there was a Visseaux 76 tube made. Rumour has it that those were some really sweet sounding tubes. Unfortunately it seems that they have all been snapped up, I haven't seen any for sale.


----------



## HOWIE13

sneaky415 said:


> I would say that the 76 and 6j5g are related and that the sound depends more on the brand of the tube. The Sylvania 76 has got that big sound with good bass but they sound a bit veiled to me. I bought them as NOS so maybe they just need some burn in time.
> 
> I have read that there was a Visseaux 76 tube made. Rumour has it that those were some really sweet sounding tubes. Unfortunately it seems that they have all been snapped up, I haven't seen any for sale.


 
 I read on one site that the VT 76 is equivalent sonically to the 6P5T ('T' I think means a short bottle). Just a different layout of pins.
 If that's the case it may sound somewhat similar to the Ken-Rad 6P5 I described (# 1499 above). It's a warm and easy tube to listen to.
 I'm going to France in the spring, maybe I should take a screwdriver with me and visit some antique radio junk shops to seek out those Visseaux.


----------



## TraceStar

Don't go disassembling all the antique radios you see LOL

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## richard51

somebody know the difference between the metal  regular 
  
 bottle visseaux tube versus the coke  glass bottle shape one ?


----------



## HOWIE13

tracestar said:


> Don't go disassembling all the antique radios you see LOL
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


 
 I suppose I'll have to buy all the radios before I will be allowed to open them up. That's a problem


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> somebody know the difference between the metal  regular
> 
> bottle visseaux tube versus the coke  glass bottle shape one ?


 
 I've been wondering about those- they look pretty indestructable. I even wondered about buying them but they look so ugly I didn't bother.
 I don't know anything about them I'm afraid so bit of a risk to purchase.


----------



## sneaky415

howie13 said:


> I read on one site that the VT 76 is equivalent sonically to the 6P5T ('T' I think means a short bottle). Just a different layout of pins.
> If that's the case it may sound somewhat similar to the Ken-Rad 6P5 I described (# 1499 above). It's a warm and easy tube to listen to.
> I'm going to France in the spring, maybe I should take a screwdriver with me and visit some antique radio junk shops to seek out those Visseaux.


 
 I believe that the 76 tube was the predecessor of the 6p5g so it makes sense that they have equal sonics. My Sylvanias were manufactured in 1946. If you could find a few of those Visseaux 76 that would be a treat


----------



## richard51

i am absolutely thrilled by the little westinghouse metal 6J5... I will not  received the 6L5GT national union before 15 days i hope...The monsoon mm-2000  speakers are planars hybrid desktop speakers, very resolving speakers hence with them the effect of the 6j5 tube is a spectacular enlargement of the soundstage with an incomparable detailed image versus my 7193 tube...It is not a new flavored colour to choose or not , it is an another better rendition of all my music...Impossible to come back...It is same thing with my headphone but a little less spectacular...i cannot imagine that the National union coke bottle glass 6L5  will be better than the metal 6J5 tube...If so it will be sonic paradise... I think that i will purchase the metal bottle visseaux because it is cheaper than the coke glass bottle visseaux and i think that it is simple to lift the metal cover and under it there is a glass bottle Visseaux but regular one not coke bootle one... I will try that... I thank you all , because without this thread nothing would have been possible for me...


----------



## Makiah S

I ROLLLLLED A TUBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBE
  
 seriously though now it's time for questions
  
 so I tried a ... this 
  

  

  
 it's a 6N6P, not sure what brand
  
 can you guys recommend any others in that family that have... a LOT of sound stage, but the same weight


----------



## Makiah S

also here's my review of the Starlight! 
  
 http://hifilittleriver.blogspot.com/2016/01/garage-1217-project-starlight-id-like.html


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> i am absolutely thrilled by the little westinghouse metal 6J5... I will not  received the 6L5GT national union before 15 days i hope...The monsoon mm-2000  speakers are planars hybrid desktop speakers, very resolving speakers hence with them the effect of the 6j5 tube is a spectacular enlargement of the soundstage with an incomparable detailed image versus my 7193 tube...It is not a new flavored colour to choose or not , it is an another better rendition of all my music...Impossible to come back...It is same thing with my headphone but a little less spectacular...i cannot imagine that the National union coke bottle glass 6L5  will be better than the metal 6J5 tube...If so it will be sonic paradise... I think that i will purchase the metal bottle visseaux because it is cheaper than the coke glass bottle visseaux and i think that it is simple to lift the metal cover and under it there is a glass bottle Visseaux but regular one not coke bootle one... I will try that... I thank you all , because without this thread nothing would have been possible for me...


 
 I like the 9 pin Westinghouse tubes I've tried.
 I would like to purchase a metal pair like your 6J5's but there are several varieties with different coloured lettering. Could you describe the tube a bit as your recommendation is much valued?
 Thanks


----------



## HOWIE13

Cancelled


----------



## richard51

howie13 said:


> I like the 9 pin Westinghouse tubes I've tried.
> I would like to purchase a metal pair like your 6J5's but there are several varieties with different coloured lettering. Could you describe the tube a bit as your recommendation is much valued?
> Thanks


 
 My westinghouse has a yellow lettering for the word " westinghouse" and orange color for "usa 6J5"... I was very enthusiastic because of the imaging and the soundstage effect... I dont know if the westinghouse  tube is one of the better...I only know that i will not return to my 7193 ken-rad... Other people were less enthusiastic than myself  for  this comparison between 6j5 and 7193 , i think that no one has the same ears and gear...Hence i dont want to influence people to buy this Westinghouse, probably this tube is like some others in the same family... The effect got me by surprise, the effect was drastically more detailed and like i have said my desktop speakers are very resolving, the effect is so great than i "enthusiastically" write my impressions...The truth is this effect for me was not a colored flavor but a better rendering of the image and the texture of the sound... thats all... is any other metal tube better? i dont know that... I will not know because i wait for the glass coke bottle national union 6L5...and the next purchase will be Visseaux when i could afford it...


----------



## HOWIE13

richard51 said:


> My westinghouse has a yellow lettering for the word " westinghouse" and orange color for "usa 6J5"... I was very enthusiastic because of the imaging and the soundstage effect... I dont know if the westinghouse  tube is one of the better...I only know that i will not return to my 7193 ken-rad... Other people were less enthusiastic than myself  for  this comparison between 6j5 and 7193 , i think that no one has the same ears and gear...Hence i dont want to influence people to buy this Westinghouse, probably this tube is like some others in the same family... The effect got me by surprise, the effect was drastically more detailed and like i have said my desktop speakers are very resolving, the effect is so great than i "enthusiastically" write my impressions...The truth is this effect for me was not a colored flavor but a better rendering of the image and the texture of the sound... thats all... is any other metal tube better? i dont know that... I will not know because i wait for the glass coke bottle national union 6L5...and the next purchase will be Visseaux when i could afford it...


 
 Thanks, I'll try and source that one and if I do I can tell you how it sounds compared to the Visseaux.
 Like you, for my personal acoustic needs, the dual 6J5's and their close relatives (6L5 etc), suit me the best in Ember.


----------



## Tunkejazz

Argggg! Where is my adapter!?!


----------



## DecentLevi

Do you need the link for the adapter? Let us know if you concur or not on the sound of those sleek tubes


----------



## Tunkejazz

decentlevi said:


> Do you need the link for the adapter? Let us know if you concur or not on the sound of those sleek tubes



Thanks Levi. I ordered the adapter at the same time as the tubes, but the latter arrived first


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> Do you need the link for the adapter? Let us know if you concur or not on the sound of those sleek tubes


 
 yea man please do! I'd love to know how they sound as well


----------



## DecentLevi

Well, here were my initial impressions on the Visseaux, which haven't changed at all yet. I would however still be interested to see how other dual coke bottle tubes compete with these


----------



## CZ4A

I've found another source of the buzzing in the left channel when using my 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter. I sometimes plug my phone directly into the Sunrise with a 3.5mm to RCA adapter (Galaxy S6 Edge. Don't knock it- it has a very good Wolfson DAC chip). With this configuration, the buzzing in all my 6C8G/6F8Gs is very annoying. I don't get the buzzing when using noval or 6SN7-type tubes.
  
 When I use a 6F8G in the Sunrise and plug in my computer via USB DAC, the buzzing becomes much, much quieter. It's still audible but it no longer requires cranking the volume or jury-rigging a ground wire to make the tube listenable. It's grounding through the PC.


----------



## Makiah S

cz4a said:


> I've found another source of the buzzing in the left channel when using my 6F8G to 12AU7 adapter. I sometimes plug my phone directly into the Sunrise with a 3.5mm to RCA adapter (Galaxy S6 Edge. Don't knock it- it has a very good Wolfson DAC chip). With this configuration, the buzzing in all my 6C8G/6F8Gs is very annoying. I don't get the buzzing when using noval or 6SN7-type tubes.
> 
> When I use a 6F8G in the Sunrise and plug in my computer via USB DAC, the buzzing becomes much, much quieter. It's still audible but it no longer requires cranking the volume or jury-rigging a ground wire to make the tube listenable. It's grounding through the PC.


 
 It could be noise, while the edge has a nice Dac Chip in it, the actual circuit might not be the best. My LG V10 is a little noisy when I run it into my amps. But honestly I like listening to it with the stock amp/Dac chip set 
  
 my point being any noise in the amp, is well amplified an sent into the out put. So it would be a mix of things, too either way it's good to hear that the PC gives you a ground


----------



## TraceStar

I caved. Ordered the 6J5 Visseaux. I'll give a comparison between them and the Zenith I'm using now when I receive 'em.


----------



## Makiah S

either way, let me ask you this. How do you guys feel a Telefunken 1966 ECC 88 [6922] compares to the JJ ECC82 12ua7 I've got now? 
 
Also is this a 6V tube


----------



## DavidA

mshenay said:


> either way, let me ask you this. How do you guys feel a Telefunken 1966 ECC 88 [6922] compares to the JJ ECC82 12ua7 I've got now?
> 
> Also is this a 6V tube


 

 I've had bad luck with ECC88/6922 tubes in my Ember, most have a very slight channel imbalance, all of the ones I've tried are match pairs for my Lyr2 where there is no problem.  Tried my 4 different Telefunken CCa's (63's), a pair of Seimen's Lorenz, Sylvania Jan's, Mullards, and 68' Telefunken's, gave up after that


----------



## Makiah S

davida said:


> I've had bad luck with ECC88/6922 tubes in my Ember, most have a very slight channel imbalance, all of the ones I've tried are match pairs for my Lyr2 where there is no problem.  Tried my 4 different Telefunken CCa's (63's), a pair of Seimen's Lorenz, Sylvania Jan's, Mullards, and 68' Telefunken's, gave up after that


 
 Hmm that's good to know! 
  
 I'm looking for a REALLY transparent tube, Ideally I want an Expansive Sound Stage with as much detail as I can get an percision. I really prefer "solid state" but I like the touch of warmth the JJ EC 88 adds into my Starlight, I liked the Sound of the 6N6P but not the... lack of sound stage it brought :/ 
  
 I tried a Clear Top as well an it was... to bright :/ the bottom end was really weak an I wasn't really thrilled


----------



## DavidA

mshenay said:


> Hmm that's good to know!
> 
> I'm looking for a REALLY transparent tube, Ideally I want an Expansive Sound Stage with as much detail as I can get an percision. I really prefer "solid state" but I like the touch of warmth the JJ EC 88 adds into my Starlight, I liked the Sound of the 6N6P but not the... lack of sound stage it brought :/
> 
> I tried a Clear Top as well an it was... to bright :/ the bottom end was really weak an I wasn't really thrilled


 
 Maybe one of the others on this thread can help you better than me, I've basically settled for just 12AU7, 12AX7 and a few 6SN7 tubes, haven't tried any of the exotic stuff like franken ember or such.  I've gotten really good results with the 12XXX series of tubes so putting money in other headphones and music seems like a better use of funds.  Among the 12XXX tubes are some of the re-issue one like Mullard and Tung Sol, cheap and easy to find, 12AU7 Telefunkens are really good but getting up there in price.


----------



## Makiah S

davida said:


> Maybe one of the others on this thread can help you better than me, I've basically settled for just 12AU7, 12AX7 and a few 6SN7 tubes, haven't tried any of the exotic stuff like franken ember or such.  I've gotten really good results with the 12XXX series of tubes so putting money in other headphones and music seems like a better use of funds.  Among the 12XXX tubes are some of the re-issue one like Mullard and Tung Sol, cheap and easy to find, 12AU7 Telefunkens are really good but getting up there in price.


 
 well I'm at the point now where I have like... 9 headphones? umm so yea... an I really like my LA D5k with the Starlight, so I might look around for a Telefunken 12UA7, as I hear the 6922s have a touch of channel imbalance in the single tube variants


----------



## Tunkejazz

mshenay said:


> I'm looking for a REALLY transparent tube, Ideally I want an Expansive Sound Stage with as much detail as I can get an percision. I really prefer "solid state" but I like the touch of warmth the JJ EC 88 adds into my Starlight, I liked the Sound of the 6N6P but not the... lack of sound stage it brought :/


 
 Given that you were considering a Telefunken (which is a very expensive tube), why not give a go to one of the high-end 6N23P? They are not cheap, but cheaper than any Telefunken and they seem to bring what you are asking for. I have a pair and I really like them!
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/702826/project-ember-tube-rolling/1470#post_12232620
  
 Good luck!


----------



## jaywillin

mshenay said:


> Hmm that's good to know!
> 
> I'm looking for a REALLY transparent tube, Ideally I want an Expansive Sound Stage with as much detail as I can get an percision. I really prefer "solid state" but I like the touch of warmth the JJ EC 88 adds into my Starlight, I liked the Sound of the 6N6P but not the... lack of sound stage it brought :/
> 
> I tried a Clear Top as well an it was... to bright :/ the bottom end was really weak an I wasn't really thrilled


 
 i've had very nice results with teslas before, and much cheaper than telefunken , something like this
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tesla-RFT-NOS-NIB-12au7-ECC82-tube-Test-NOS-/171019431290?hash=item27d18d6d7a:g:ZC8AAMXQt5ZRXoYI


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> Hmm that's good to know!
> 
> I'm looking for a REALLY transparent tube, Ideally I want an Expansive Sound Stage with as much detail as I can get an percision. I really prefer "solid state" but I like the touch of warmth the JJ EC 88 adds into my Starlight, I liked the Sound of the 6N6P but not the... lack of sound stage it brought :/
> 
> I tried a Clear Top as well an it was... to bright :/ the bottom end was really weak an I wasn't really thrilled


 
 Most transparent  9 pins I've experienced are Amperex 'Bugle Boy', GE 'Dark Glass', Tungsram and Tesla, all 6DJ8/ECC88 types. Tungsram E80CC is also very good, but has become very expensive-if you could find a reasonably priced one I would consider it as well.
 The other alternative would be to change to an Octal, either twin triode or dual single triode. The latter would give you the biggest sound-stage of all, I would think.


----------



## Tunkejazz

Guys, the 6J5 to ECC88 adapter arrived! To avoid the big capacitors in the Ember, I have to turn it 90 deg.
 Do you remember if one should turn clockwise or counter-clockwise?
  
 EDIT: Ummm, I did the turn in the only direction that would not put extra tension on the cables. Just mounted the Visseaux, and...I get a very loud hum on both channels 
  
 Any ideas?
  
 EDIT2: And although I requested a "matched pair" one channel is clearly stronger than the other  It seems it did not go as good for me with Mr. Yitry.


----------



## tommo21

tunkejazz said:


> Guys, the 6J5 to ECC88 adapter arrived! To avoid the big capacitors in the Ember, I have to turn it 90 deg.
> Do you remember if one should turn clockwise or counter-clockwise?
> 
> EDIT: Ummm, I did the turn in the only direction that would not put extra tension on the cables. Just mounted the Visseaux, and...I get a very loud hum on both channels
> ...


 

 Try and pull the adapter out, and bend the pins on it slightly outwards. I had the same trouble with mine, but after I did that, and made sure it fit correct into the Ember again, it was gone. Don't judge the Visseaux until that hum is gone.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Guys, the 6J5 to ECC88 adapter arrived! To avoid the big capacitors in the Ember, I have to turn it 90 deg.
> Do you remember if one should turn clockwise or counter-clockwise?
> 
> EDIT: Ummm, I did the turn in the only direction that would not put extra tension on the cables. Just mounted the Visseaux, and...I get a very loud hum on both channels
> ...


 
 Are you hearing any music and is the hum constant even if you waggle the tube and adapter a bit?


----------



## DecentLevi

A grounding idea to solve the hum that I read on another thread was to take a thick 9 gauge wire: connect one end to either a capacitor of your Ember and the other to a pipe. His was connected to a large pipe in a nearby bathroom.
  
 Or you can try connecting the wire to the '3rd' ground connection in an open slot in your power strip... that's right insert the wire right into a power strip (and grounded on the other side - _just don't get 'grounded' for doing without asking if you're under age LOL_) . This way, all components connected to the power strip will be grounded. But this method is mostly meant for if your home wiring is not grounded very well, or especially if you're using a cheat 3-to-2 connection to the wall without a ground connection.


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> Most transparent  9 pins I've experienced are Amperex 'Bugle Boy', GE 'Dark Glass', Tungsram and Tesla, all 6DJ8/ECC88 types. Tungsram E80CC is also very good, but has become very expensive-if you could find a reasonably priced one I would consider it as well.
> The other alternative would be to change to an Octal, either twin triode or dual single triode. The latter would give you the biggest sound-stage of all, I would think.


 
 Well I found a 1975 Grey Sheild Rocket Vockshod for $40, we will see how it sounds 


tunkejazz said:


> Given that you were considering a Telefunken (which is a very expensive tube), why not give a go to one of the high-end 6N23P? They are not cheap, but cheaper than any Telefunken and they seem to bring what you are asking for. I have a pair and I really like them!
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/702826/project-ember-tube-rolling/1470#post_12232620
> 
> Good luck!


 
  
  


jaywillin said:


> i've had very nice results with teslas before, and much cheaper than telefunken , something like this
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tesla-RFT-NOS-NIB-12au7-ECC82-tube-Test-NOS-/171019431290?hash=item27d18d6d7a:g:ZC8AAMXQt5ZRXoYI


 
 I picked up that one too 
  


howie13 said:


> Most transparent  9 pins I've experienced are Amperex 'Bugle Boy', GE 'Dark Glass', Tungsram and Tesla, all 6DJ8/ECC88 types. Tungsram E80CC is also very good, but has become very expensive-if you could find a reasonably priced one I would consider it as well.
> The other alternative would be to change to an Octal, either twin triode or dual single triode. The latter would give you the biggest sound-stage of all, I would think.


 
  
 I'll have to try those later down the line
  
 but for now I grabbed what was hopefully a 1975 Vokshod Rocket Gray Sheild out of Europe <.< it'll be here febuary, but the Telsa that  @jaywillin was being sold state side, so I got it here by the 22nd for $25 
  
 So we'll see how the $20 tube compares to the $40, all in all I spent around $75 for two tubes, which is what I was going to pay for one. So here's to hoping it sounds great! 
  
 Ironically, the 6n23p I have sounded REALLY good in my Vali 2, but it has a little more noise in my Starlight Frankly... there's s almost tearing sound on the left channel when I adjust the volume. It's very faint [yes the bias is set on the channels] I also think the 6V tube is doing a better job with the High Gain Input from my Dac than the 12v series did... I went to using low gain on my Dac to try an cut the noise, as the high gain output can be a smidge noisy how ever it seems the 6n23P Reflektor I have... doesn't really add any noise on High Gain, that said though... I'm either noticing a lot more clicks an pops in this matter than I did before, 
  
 Oh nope it's not the tube it's the track... sound stage wise though it is pretty good... so much so I think I'm going to just cancel that 12v order [I'll try a 12v Telefunken eventually for kicks an giggles] 
  
 Either way, my second run with this Tube seems better than the first... it could be because I'm using High Gain into the tube, giving me more headroom on the amp, it could be that the tube is a smidge noisy but it sounds really nice. If anything I've gained some headroom


----------



## HOWIE13

@Mshenay
  
 'but for now I grabbed what was hopefully a 1975 Vokshod Rocket Gray Sheild out of Europe'
  
 I get quite confused with the Russian tubes-probably because I don't speak Russian. I may have tried that one but can't be sure. The thing I like about the Russian tubes I've used is they are well made and have always been reliable.


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> @Mshenay
> 
> 'but for now I grabbed what was hopefully a 1975 Vokshod Rocket Gray Sheild out of Europe'
> 
> I get quite confused with the Russian tubes-probably because I don't speak Russian. I may have tried that one but can't be sure. The thing I like about the Russian tubes I've used is they are well made and have always been reliable.


 
 Well the order was in English, an the link Tunke Jazz Sent me had the 1975 Gray Shield Vokshod Rocket at the top of his list, so let's hope it was worth the $40 I spent on it
  
 but more importantly I think I found a better sound with the 6N23P... it's... brings both increased noise when I change volume, but... less overall noise during listening. 
  
 An the sound stage is pretty good, I've noticed a few new details that I didn't catch before so that's good! I find that the Bass is... good different! The extra touch of Decay in the bass is... so so for Double Bass, but GREAT for Drums! While I don't get as much texture in the double bass during the intro of Miles Davis's "So What," I do find that the drums have a nice touch of ENERGY an HURRAH! That the NFB10ES2 balanced out... doesn't have [because it has so little decay] So yea  seems like the 6N23P is the tube for me
  
 How ever, the extra decay in that double bass is nice during the middle of the song, when we've got the brass horns, drums, high hats an piano over top, so with every loss there is a gain it seems! An pretty Damn impressive for a $250 [ish] dollar Hybrid Tube to be comparing to my NFB10ES2 balanced out! 
  
 an yea I like stuff from out of the Balkans as well ^^


----------



## jaywillin

my first purchased tube for my new sunrise iii, i know it won't be my last
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/221977116571?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## TraceStar

jaywillin said:


> my first purchased tube for my new sunrise iii, i know it won't be my last
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221977116571?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT




Welcome to tube madness 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## jaywillin

tracestar said:


> Welcome to tube madness
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 oh i'm not new to tubes, i've had many tube amps, and i've spent waaaaaaaay to much on tubes, but i can't help it , i'm a tube junkie


----------



## Makiah S

jaywillin said:


> oh i'm not new to tubes, i've had many tube amps, and i've spent waaaaaaaay to much on tubes, but i can't help it , i'm a tube junkie


 
 haha, it's funny I started out wanting a Telefunken an I wound up with a Vokshod, an then you go an buy a Telefunken xD
  
 still I'm really impressed with the 6n23P I have... an I think the Vokshod might be a nice upgrade for me! I'll get around to grabbing a gold pin Telefunken one of these days
  
 but I'm really impressed, this tube does really well with drums! Even my HM901/PB2 [Balanced out] doesn't bring the same level of ATTACK in the drums as the tube Combo does, an the HM 901 as a source is... a little more AGGRESSIVE than my NFB10ES2 
  
 so yea, here's to hoping the new tube I get will give me just a touch more sound stage, a tighter bass an keep that really great ATTACK


----------



## TraceStar

jaywillin said:


> tracestar said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome to tube madness
> ...




LOL. Being here helps feed the addiction. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## jaywillin

some of the voskhods and reflektors are as good as most any tube
 these reflektors with the single wire getters are very nice
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-E88CC-6922-6DJ8-Matched-PAIR-REFLEKTOR-Single-Wire-Grey-ShieldPlate-/172052775329?hash=item280f2501a1:g:08kAAOSwyQtV5Znt


----------



## Makiah S

jaywillin said:


> some of the voskhods and reflektors are as good as most any tube
> these reflektors with the single wire getters are very nice
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-E88CC-6922-6DJ8-Matched-PAIR-REFLEKTOR-Single-Wire-Grey-ShieldPlate-/172052775329?hash=item280f2501a1:g:08kAAOSwyQtV5Znt


 
 Yea I've heard a lot of positives about them as well, an really I'm enjoying the one I have now, it's labeled a "Dual Arm UFO Getter" not sure what that means, but I do like it a bit better than the JJ ECC 82 I had in it


----------



## nykobing

mshenay said:


> Yea I've heard a lot of positives about them as well, an really I'm enjoying the one I have now, it's labeled a "Dual Arm UFO Getter" not sure what that means, but I do like it a bit better than the JJ ECC 82 I had in it


 
 That is one of the worst 6n23p's I have heard, it was kind of muddy.  If you want to go the small tube route, look for a 1974 or 1975 single wire 6n23p. They seem to be 20 times the price they were last year because of the lyr users, but they are really worth it. If I remember right, I haven't used my ember in a year or so, they made single wire 6n23p from about 1972-1975. The 1972-1973 ones were ok, but the others were a lot better. I think after 1975 the getter changed to a thicker wire that looks different. You want a getter like the one below. The great thing about these tubes is the year is printed on the tubes so you can't miss it.


----------



## Makiah S

nykobing said:


> That is one of the worst 6n23p's I have heard, it was kind of muddy.  If you want to go the small tube route, look for a 1974 or 1975 single wire 6n23p. They seem to be 20 times the price they were last year because of the lyr users, but they are really worth it. If I remember right, I haven't used my ember in a year or so, there made single wire 6n23p from about 1972-1975. The 1972-1973 ones were ok, but the others were a lot better. I think after 1975 the getter changed to a thicker wire that looks different. You want a getter like the one below. The great thing about these tubes is the year is printed on the tubes so you can't miss it.


 
  
  HA xD well that's good to know, if it's the WORSE sounding one then I'm in for a treat! 
  
 The Vokshod Rocket I purchased was 1975 single Wire, Grey Plate. It should be worth while. Here's to hoping my cancellation of the Telsa doesn't go through, might be nice to see how BAD this tube really is
  
 either way it sounds better than the JJ ECC 82 I had in there 


>


----------



## jaywillin

there's the double wire,
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-E88CC-6922-6DJ8-Matched-Selected-Pair-Reflektor-NOS-Strong-/171860269078?hash=item2803ab9816:g:OggAAOxy63FS7Oi6
  
 they are good, just not as good as the '74 single wire


----------



## Makiah S

jaywillin said:


> there's the double wire,
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-E88CC-6922-6DJ8-Matched-Selected-Pair-Reflektor-NOS-Strong-/171860269078?hash=item2803ab9816:g:OggAAOxy63FS7Oi6
> 
> they are good, just not as good as the '74 single wire


 
 Here's what I got
 a 75 Single Wire, Gray Sheild 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/121805488038, guess I lucked out on buying the Single Wire, without even looking to see if it was a Single Wire xD 
  
 but some one recommended it, 
  
 as to my current Dual Arm, it seems @DecentLevi found it to be maybe a "20%" improvement over the JJ ECC 88 that he had... though that was a Holy Grail 1975 Single arm :/ if that's his thoughts then either way it should "improve" the quality of sound I'm getting
  
 an yea the bass isn't as taut as I'd prefer, both of my solid states have a tighter bass, but it's very full which is my expectation of "cheaper" tubes at this price point I'm not expecting a miracle, how ever I really should look into getting my self a balanced Tube Amp :/ like the Little DOT MK VI [though it's HUGE an expensive q.q]


----------



## Makiah S

So I have a 6SN7 adapter, an I really like the look of those tubes, what are some of the best sounding on the 8pin Series


----------



## jaywillin

mshenay said:


> So I have a 6SN7 adapter, an I really like the look of those tubes, what are some of the best sounding on the 8pin Series


 
 have you checked out the 6sn7 thread ?
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts
  
 i'm doing a little 6sn7 shopping myself


----------



## DecentLevi

My undisputed champion out of around 2 dozen 6SN7's I've tried was the GE 6SN7 GTA. Best mix of natural timbre, clarity and especially bass definition - and another analytical listener confirmed this as well.


----------



## Makiah S

jaywillin said:


> have you checked out the 6sn7 thread ?
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts
> 
> i'm doing a little 6sn7 shopping myself


 
 I did actually, I'm looking at a TungSol  6SL7 my self right around $40 dollars can we use 6SL7s?
  
 Also has any one tried the Electro-Harmonix EH6SN7


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> My undisputed champion out of around 2 dozen 6SN7's I've tried was the GE 6SN7 GTA. Best mix of natural timbre, clarity and especially bass definition - and another analytical listener confirmed this as well.


 
 How does the GTB Compare to the GTA, I've got a GTB Jeremy sent me


----------



## DecentLevi

From the notes of my previous careful comparisons, the GTA has just right treble whereas the GTB is borderlining piercing, more 'pleasing' bass definition especially for electronic & pop music, but maybe _ever so slightly_ less punchy.
  
 I wish I could still use my GTB - for some reason mine died on me recently, making some pulsating sound that couldn't be fixed.


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> From the notes of my previous careful comparisons, the GTA has just right treble whereas the GTB is borderlining piercing, more 'pleasing' bass definition especially for electronic & pop music, but maybe _ever so slightly_ less punchy.
> 
> I wish I could still use my GTB - for some reason mine died on me recently, making some pulsating sound that couldn't be fixed.


 
 hmmm the first time I tried the GTB it sounded terrible imo but 9/10 I had the bias all wrong, I might try it again an see how I like it


----------



## Makiah S

doing my sound stage checks atm with the GE GTB it doesn't sound to bad
  
 I noticed a stronger Left/Center/ Right Presentation with it, but man those S's are Hot hot HOT! Even more so than my Solid State xD 
  
 I'm curious as to how it'll compare to the Vokshod I got :3


----------



## TraceStar

mshenay said:


> jaywillin said:
> 
> 
> > have you checked out the 6sn7 thread ?
> ...


 
I've tried the EH6SN7. Can't compare it to other 6SN7 though coz that's the only one I used before getting infected with dual tubeitis

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## connieflyer

I have the  EH, Tung-sol,  Ken-Rad Vt231, Sylvania vt231 and GTa-B and chrome top, Rca, both clear and grey glass, and of all IMHO the EH was the worst, of the bunch. Dry, flat not much to it for me, cheap as them come though for a new tube


----------



## Makiah S

so then let me ask this, what adapter to you use for Dual Tubes  I actually purchased a pair of GE/Admiral 6SN7 GTAs they have the same code on the glass, an the same physical specs how ever the black bases are different, one's admiral the other is GE Eletronic


----------



## jaywillin

i couldn't say when, or even if i've ever bought a new tube, i always go NOS


----------



## Makiah S

connieflyer said:


> I have the  EH, Tung-sol,  Ken-Rad Vt231, Sylvania vt231 and GTa-B and chrome top, Rca, both clear and grey glass, and of all IMHO the EH was the worst, of the bunch. Dry, flat not much to it for me, cheap as them come though for a new tube


 
 I might [assuming the Two GTAs I got are the same, they measured very closely to one another, in addition to the physical resemblance. Though apparently GE made the tubes for Admiral either way it was a price for 2, that cost the same as the price some charge for one so I figured why not. Besides I liked teh add, test results were conceise no black spots near the top of the tube 
  
 welp, $80 later I've got 4 tubes in bound, a Telefunken ECC 81 two GTA 6sn7 and a Vokshod Rocket 6n23p 1975 gray sheild 
  
 How would I run a dual tube set into the single socket 
  


Spoiler: Add Results 



[size=medium]For sale I have a matched pair of ultra quiet GE 6SN7GTA vacuum tubes. Parallel gray plates, copper grid posts and side horseshoe getters these tubes were made just 13 weeks apart in 1954/55. Tubes carefully tested for transconductance, shorts, gas, life and leakage on world class testers.  No tube is sold that has any gas or leakage. Photo is of the actual tubes on auction. I take a great deal of pride in the honesty of my representation and the quality of my customer service. There will be no unwelcome surprises with my tubes....guaranteed.  [/size]
 [size=medium]*Test Results:*[/size]
 [size=medium] [/size]
 [size=medium]
2225/2200 and 2200/2125 gm (Triplett 3444)
78/77 and 81/76 (Cardmatic)
[/size] *[size=medium]Minimum:[/size]* [size=medium] [/size]
 [size=medium]
1700/1700 gm (Triplett 3444)
[/size]


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> From the notes of my previous careful comparisons, the GTA has just right treble whereas the GTB is borderlining piercing, more 'pleasing' bass definition especially for electronic & pop music, but maybe _ever so slightly_ less punchy.
> 
> I wish I could still use my GTB - for some reason mine died on me recently, making some pulsating sound that couldn't be fixed.


 
 speaking of which, are you in the market for a GTB? Mine will be for sale here shortly, I'm thinking around $17 for it Shipped or something
  
 an yea, your description was spot on! The sound stage on the GE 6SN7 was great, but my GTB had some very HOT highs, even more so than on my solid state 
  
 I've got two GTAs in bound


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks much for the offer Mshenay but I think I'll pass. After getting the Visseaux I'm not into rolling any more tubes in the Ember unless I get word of a really stealthy new one. Otherwise I'll be transitioning to another tube amp - the one you guys didn't believe me about


----------



## HOWIE13

I'm also, more or less, only using dual tube set-ups now.
  
 However my two favourite 6SN7's are Sylvania  'Bad Boy' and Tung-Sol 'Round Plate'.
  
 Maybe some of our differences in favourite tubes has much to do with the different types of music we listen to. I like mainly Classical and Jazz and I guess I'm in the minority.


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> so then let me ask this, what adapter to you use for Dual Tubes  I actually purchased a pair of GE/Admiral 6SN7 GTAs they have the same code on the glass, an the same physical specs how ever the black bases are different, one's admiral the other is GE Eletronic


 
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Dual-6C8P-2C22-7193-CV6-CV3601-TO-6CG7-6FQ7-6DJ8-tube-converter-adapter-6-3V-/191552831342?hash=item2c99703f6e
  
 AND
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Dual-6J5G-6C5G-VT-94-CV1932-L63-VR67-TO-ECC88-6922-tube-converter-adapter-/201458214762?hash=item2ee7d8676a:g:j5EA


----------



## connieflyer

decentlevi said:


> Thanks much for the offer Mshenay but I think I'll pass. After getting the Visseaux I'm not into rolling any more tubes in the Ember unless I get word of a really stealthy new one. Otherwise I'll be transitioning to another tube amp - the one you guys didn't believe me about


 

 That amp was on my short list also.  I was ready to buy it or another kit, for about the same price, but heard Howiee13 and others about the Visseaux tubes, so decided to give the Ember one more shot.  I really like it now.  Picked up a pair of 700's and hp-50's as well, and the ember continues to impress. Don't use the 650's as much as I used too, did not see that coming, either.  So for now I am sitting tight, the Elise is well thought of.  If you do, post back here with a link to your thoughts on it.


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Dual-6C8P-2C22-7193-CV6-CV3601-TO-6CG7-6FQ7-6DJ8-tube-converter-adapter-6-3V-/191552831342?hash=item2c99703f6e
> 
> AND
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Dual-6J5G-6C5G-VT-94-CV1932-L63-VR67-TO-ECC88-6922-tube-converter-adapter-/201458214762?hash=item2ee7d8676a:g:j5EA




what are those things on the first one the wirey doodads

though I may stick to single tubes till I move to the ember, I'm not sure I should roll duels into the starlight

also what's the voltage on the 6V6 Visseaux tubes, could I roll a single into the star light safely


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> what are those things on the first one the wirey doodads
> 
> though I may stick to single tubes till I move to the ember, I'm not sure I should roll duels into the starlight
> 
> also what's the voltage on the 6V6 Visseaux tubes, could I roll a single into the star light safely


 
 The wires are to connect to the two metal terminals at the top of 7193/2C22 type tubes. In the Ember this setup is called FrankenEmber, so in the Vali it could be called FrankenVali
  
  

  
  
 Starlight loves the dual single triode octal set up. You don't even have to turn the adapter round to avoid  large front capacitors as you have to do in Ember and Horizon.
 Actually, my favourite set up for Starlight is with dual RCA 2C22 tubes. (7193 and 2C22 are similar tubes and sound the same to me).
 I have never used 6V6 tubes. You would need to check with Jeremy about those..
  
  
 EDIT: Showed the Vali because the photo was to hand to show the connections- now here's FrankenStarlight:


----------



## Demo3

mshenay said:


> what are those things on the first one the wirey doodads


 
 Those are called... from the Latin "wirealaioto doodatioums", which means to transform from Ember to Franken Ember.


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> The wires are to connect to the two metal terminals at the top of 7193/2C22 type tubes. In the Ember this setup is called FrankenEmber, so in the Vali it could be called FrankenVali:-
> Starlight loves the dual single triode octal set up. You don't even have to turn the adapter round to avoid  large front capacitors as you have to do in Ember and Horizon.
> Actually, my favourite set up for Starlight is with dual RCA 2C22 tubes. (7193 and 2C22 are similar tubes and sound the same to me).
> I have never used 6V6 tubes. You would need to check with Jeremy about those..


 
 ugh I'll have to pick up an adapter then, I checked the ampage on the GE 6SN7 GTA an it was REALLY low, so apparently I can use two of them without any issue, only problem is I'm broke :/ I could try to get a return on my VokShod 1975 Rocket [which actually I might due seeing as the shipping date is SO DARN LONG] Chances are it's been too late so, we will see how it goes 
  
 if he accepts it an allows for the cancellation I can use those funds to Purchase the Adapter an a Matched set of GE 6sn7 GTAs. I did a little more reaserach today an found that usually when two identical tubes are sold under different brands, it could be because one of them measured poorly, an was liqudated to another company. An other times it's just sold under a different name 
  
 so we will see how the set of 6SNy GTAs I got sounds, as one is an Adrmial, but they both measured very well, I posted the numbers up here some where 
  
 How does the Dual Set up compare to a single 12V


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> ugh I'll have to pick up an adapter then, I checked the ampage on the GE 6SN7 GTA an it was REALLY low, so apparently I can use two of them without any issue, only problem is I'm broke :/ I could try to get a return on my VokShod 1975 Rocket [which actually I might due seeing as the shipping date is SO DARN LONG] Chances are it's been too late so, we will see how it goes
> 
> if he accepts it an allows for the cancellation I can use those funds to Purchase the Adapter an a Matched set of GE 6sn7 GTAs. I did a little more reaserach today an found that usually when two identical tubes are sold under different brands, it could be because one of them measured poorly, an was liqudated to another company. An other times it's just sold under a different name
> 
> ...


 
 The 6.3V and 12V refer to the heater voltages, nothing to do with the sound.
 You don't put two 6SN7's into a dual adapter-the dual adapter is for single triodes-the 6SN7's are dual triodes and you only use one at a time.
 Single triodes are like 7196 and 6J5, 6L5 etc. Essentially they are half a 6SN7, one for each channel-which is why they need the dual adapter.


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> The 6.3V and 12V refer to the heater voltages, nothing to do with the sound.
> You don't put two 6SN7's into a dual adapter-the dual adapter is for single triodes-the 6SN7's are dual triodes and you only use one at a time.
> Single triodes are like 7196 and 6J5, 6L5 etc. Essentially they are half a 6SN7, one for each channel-which is why they need the dual adapter.


 
 Ahh well see there thats why I ask you guys
  
 an no I didn't mean the 6.3 or 12v, I meant I pulled out spec sheets from the manufactor to see what teh Current Draw of each is, as I understand that the Starlight can only handle up to  like 1000mA


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> Ahh well see there thats why I ask you guys
> 
> an no I didn't mean the 6.3 or 12v, I meant I pulled out spec sheets from the manufactor to see what teh Current Draw of each is, as I understand that the Starlight can only handle up to  like 1000mA


 
 It's cool. The single triodes draw 300mA each, so two of them are the equivalent of the single 600ma 6SN7. No problem for Starlight.


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> It's cool. The single triodes draw 300mA each, so two of them are the equivalent of the single 600ma 6SN7. No problem for Starlight.


 
 ahhh there we go  any links to what single Triodes to aim for
  
 well I can guess the obvious benefits of going with a Dual Single Triode Alignment as opposed to a single duel, I'm sure that argument is simmilar to running a Dual Dac topology as opposed to a single or something


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> ahhh there we go  any links to what single Triodes to aim for
> 
> well I can guess the obvious benefits of going with a Dual Single Triode Alignment as opposed to a single duel, I'm sure that argument is simmilar to running a Dual Dac topology as opposed to a single or something


 
 Well to me the sound-stage gains considerably, and with that there comes better imaging etc, etc. For Classical which is my main interest, that's very helpful.
 I would caution that dual set ups can be addictive and are not so good for the wallet.


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> Well to me the sound-stage gains considerably, and with that there comes better imaging etc, etc. For Classical which is my main interest, that's very helpful.
> I would caution that dual set ups can be addictive and are not so good for the wallet.


 
 UGH, welp there go my Taxes lol 
  
 but give how much I've spent on headphones, a few hundred dollars on some tubes will be enjoyable! It Beats buying an entirely NEW headphone >.> 
  
 an yea Sound Stage is my main issue with my Starlight at the moment, what Dual Single Triodes do you currently enjoy? I for example like the sound of the 6n6p Dual Triode tube, but hate it's lack of sound stage. So something with the same body but considerably more sound stage


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> UGH, welp there go my Taxes lol
> 
> but give how much I've spent on headphones, a few hundred dollars on some tubes will be enjoyable! It Beats buying an entirely NEW headphone >.>
> 
> an yea Sound Stage is my main issue with my Starlight at the moment, what Dual Single Triodes do you currently enjoy? I for example like the sound of the 6n6p Dual Triode tube, but hate it's lack of sound stage. So something with the same body but considerably more sound stage


 
 If you browse back through this thread you can read a lot about 7193's, 6J5's and 6L5's which are some of the favourites.
 There can be issues with background hum in some set ups, which require attention to earthing issues, but most of the ones I've used are not a problem in this respect.
 I think the 6J5's just have the edge over 7193's for increasing sound-stage but if you read the thread and particularly which types of music people are listening to you should get a good idea what might suit you.
  
 EDIT: Just focused on your comment about the 6N6P-a good tube but you should get a better sound stage and probably more body too from a dual set up.


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> If you browse back through this thread you can read a lot about 7193's, 6J5's and 6L5's which are some of the favourites.
> There can be issues with background hum in some set ups, which require attention to earthing issues, but most of the ones I've used are not a problem in this respect.
> I think the 6J5's just have the edge over 7193's for increasing sound-stage but if you read the thread and particularly which types of music people are listening to you should get a good idea what might suit you.
> 
> EDIT: Just focused on your comment about the 6N6P-a good tube but you should get a better sound stage and probably more body too from a dual set up.


 
 ahh yea I see what you  mean by pricey, still not to shabby, it'll be an after Taxes venture for sure xD


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> ahh yea I see what you  mean by pricey, still not to shabby, it'll be an after Taxes venture for sure xD


 
 I've had to take a break from rolling since Christmas as I'm broke and the wife is getting at me for spending too much.


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> I've had to take a break from rolling since Christmas as I'm broke and the wife is getting at me for spending too much.


 
 well I only stopped because it's Jan, I work in sales an the markets kinda dry this month. Were RIGHT after the holidays an RIGHT before Tax Return season <.<
  
 still as much as I like lsitening an comapring headphones I can imagine that doing the same with tubes should be fun 
  
 Oh I just grabbed a Socket Save too, after I noticed a little bit of Play in the socket for my Starlight >.> Figured I'd better grab a save now while I can


----------



## tonykaz

Mr.Howie13 & all y'all Tube rollers, 
  
 You seem to have considerable experience with various Tube Rolling Amps.
  
 Can you offer an opinion and reasons for owing a Lyr, Ember, Vali 2 or any of the other Amps available.
  
 Some of these manufacturers seem especially helpful. 
  
 So far, I've discovered Schiit, Garage1217, Little Dot and Feliks.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## Makiah S

tonykaz said:


> Mr.Howie13 & all y'all Tube rollers,
> 
> You seem to have considerable experience with various Tube Rolling Amps.
> 
> ...


 
 Honestly, I'd grab the Ember, I've had both Schiit Valis, and a little Dot an thus far I've enjoyed working the G1217 the best! Really helpful guys, not to mention they build some really quality amplifiers! 
  
 Though the Lyr 2 an Ember are in different price classes, as is the Feliks. I can't speak for the Feliks, but teh Schiit Amps have a lot of power on tap, in case you were planning on driving something like the HE 6


----------



## connieflyer

I would second the advice of getting the Ember.  I have rolled alot of tubes through mine, settled on the dual 6J5's and 6L5's.  I find the soundstage to be much improved.  I was going to get a Feliks, when I tried the dual 7193's liked what I heard, and continued the hunt.  Favorites so far are the Visseaux 6J5's, bought two pair, don't know why I thought I would outlive the first pair, but like the 6L5's National Union tubes, very much as well.  Have to sort out which of the extras to sell off.  Don't need (did I say that) this many dublicates.  But the Visseaux's are getting hard to find, so I thought I would get the second pair.  Still experimenting with other combos. Like the dual setup best, 9 pin 12at7 bugle boys I have are nice, and the Ken-Rad 6SN7  Vt231 are all good tubes.  Bought Senn700 and like it alot, the 650's are not getting as much head time.


----------



## CZ4A

mshenay said:


> I did actually, I'm looking at a TungSol  6SL7 my self right around $40 dollars can we use 6SL7s?




Certainly. I have some 6SL7s that I've used before like GE, Ken-Rad, and Tung-Sol 6SU7GTY (mil-spec 6SL7). Two things I've noticed is that 6SL7s are prone to being microphonic and that sometimes you will have to bypass the input capacitors to get them to bias properly.


----------



## HOWIE13

tonykaz said:


> Mr.Howie13 & all y'all Tube rollers,
> 
> You seem to have considerable experience with various Tube Rolling Amps.
> 
> ...


 
 Oh well, one advantage of living in the UK is by the time I wake up to answer questions they have already been answered!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Totally agree with what's already been said, Tony. The Vali 2's equivalent is more like the Starlight than Ember which is a step or two up (in price too).
 LD's are nice amps too, the LD2/2 is fantastic value for the price-it has a lighter more airy sound in general, not as richly layered though, if you know what I mean.
 Feliks, I don't know about. Reports are very good but some of the hype on the web has put me off.  I think DecentLevi is thinking about buying one so will wait for his impressions.
 I still sometimes listen with my Indeed G3, a nice cheap starter tube amp-but I don't know if it's made any more.
 Bravo amps are good value starters too, but more limited for tube rolling.


----------



## HOWIE13

cz4a said:


> Certainly. I have some 6SL7s that I've used before like GE, Ken-Rad, and Tung-Sol 6SU7GTY (mil-spec 6SL7). Two things I've noticed is that 6SL7s are prone to being microphonic and that sometimes you will have to bypass the input capacitors to get them to bias properly.


 
 Do the 6SL7's work alright in Garage amps using the usual 6SN7 adapter?
 I read they were microphonic but I can't find a definitive answer on the Web as to whether they are readily interchangeable with 6SN7's.


----------



## Tunkejazz

tommo21 said:


> Try and pull the adapter out, and bend the pins on it slightly outwards. I had the same trouble with mine, but after I did that, and made sure it fit correct into the Ember again, it was gone. Don't judge the Visseaux until that hum is gone.


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> Are you hearing any music and is the hum constant even if you waggle the tube and adapter a bit?


 
  
  


decentlevi said:


> A grounding idea to solve the hum that I read on another thread was to take a thick 9 gauge wire: connect one end to either a capacitor of your Ember and the other to a pipe. His was connected to a large pipe in a nearby bathroom.


 
  
 Thanks for the info guys. The hum is gone, not sure why it was there in the first place. Just turned the Ember the morning after and there was no hum :-S
  
 There is still a small channel imbalance, but it is very mild  I will report back when I have tested the Visseaux with a large selection of music.
 I also got the Franken Jr. RCA and Raytheon 
  
 I will report back later!


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Thanks for the info guys. The hum is gone, not sure why it was there in the first place. Just turned the Ember the morning after and there was no hum :-S
> 
> There is still a small channel imbalance, but it is very mild  I will report back when I have tested the Visseaux with a large selection of music.
> I also got the Franken Jr. RCA and Raytheon
> ...


 
 Good news!


----------



## tonykaz

Mr. Howie13 & Ember folks,
  
 Thank you for your thoughts.  I'm trying to reason thru the concepts of the Single Twin-Triode vs. the Dual Twin-Triode design of the Lyr2 vs. the Dual Twin-Triode plus the Dual Twin-Triode output stage of the Valhalla 2 and Feliks.  
  
  2-Triode, 4-Triode & 8-Triode Designs.  All three seem attractive.  Schiit offer all three.  
  
 The Lyr group have been rolling the miniatures since that Amp's introduction and have scads of posts here on Head-Fi, a person might feel it's the most popular.
  
 The Garage1217 owners seem the more imaginative, hands-on, curious and adventurous types who enjoy the support of the two company founders and a shared eagerness to discover ever-new (or very old) valve amplification device possibilities.
  
 The 2-Triode & 4-Triode groups seem the most active.  Is this because high quality Tubes are costly? (not as pricy as Rolling headphones, cables, DACs, Amps. or Wives for that matter  !
  
 Is the 2-Triode Garage1217 design better able to isolate Triode Sound Qualities, making it "The" articulate "Tube Sound-Quality" evaluator?
  
 Would anyone recommend  buying all three : Lyr 2, Garage Ember and Valhalla 2 ?  Would owning all three lead to Clarity or confusion?
  
 I'm a Dynamic Driver sort, I've owned the Planers and the Stax stuff.  Sennheiser produce the finest headphone transducer systems, I'm staying with them and their 300 ohm headphones.  ( I may explore the Beyers & AKGs ).  I get the feeling that all headphone Amplifier types are able to drive the 300 ohm Sennheisers.  
  
 2015 brought me a useful understanding of DAC performance realities, an understanding of my own hearing limitations and knowledge of how to optimize my music system, a high comfort level with my Class A Asgard 2 Amplification and a final realization of the superiority of the Sennheiser Headphone Systems ranging from the HD580s, 600s,650s, 700s, thru to the Hd800s ( which I nearly purchased and still might, except for my HD580s being so delightful! )
  
 I feel the excitement that you Rollers enjoy, I think I'd like to make a contribution and help build a clear & smooth path to affordible, accessible musical reproduction and enjoy it's benefits myself.  
  
 Thank you for your help.
  
 Tony in Michigan


----------



## HOWIE13

tonykaz said:


> Mr. Howie13 & Ember folks,
> 
> Thank you for your thoughts.  I'm trying to reason thru the concepts of the Single Twin-Triode vs. the Dual Twin-Triode design of the Lyr2 vs. the Dual Twin-Triode plus the Dual Twin-Triode output stage of the Valhalla 2 and Feliks.
> 
> ...


 
 Wish I could help you more but I really only know Garage 1217 amps well. The Ember certainly gives you lots of options and great support from the designer and manufacturer. 
 With you enjoying so many different cans there won't in all probability be a 'one fit all' solution and further purchases may be inevitable.
 I'm kind of in the same position and one thing that might help is to attend a Can Jam or similar meeting for amplifiers and dacs and listen to equipment not so readily accessed on line. That's probably my next way forward, once I've saved up some spending money.


----------



## CZ4A

howie13 said:


> Do the 6SL7's work alright in Garage amps using the usual 6SN7 adapter?
> I read they were microphonic but I can't find a definitive answer on the Web as to whether they are readily interchangeable with 6SN7's.




The 6SN7 and 6SL7 have the same pin outs so they work fine with the 6SN7 adapter. The 6SL7 actually draws less heater current than the 6SN7 (300mA vs. 600mA). So aside from the microphonics and sometimes tricky biasing, they work fine in my Sunrise.


----------



## HOWIE13

cz4a said:


> The 6SN7 and 6SL7 have the same pin outs so they work fine with the 6SN7 adapter. The 6SL7 actually draws less heater current than the 6SN7 (300mA vs. 600mA). So aside from the microphonics and sometimes tricky biasing, they work fine in my Sunrise.


 
 Thanks for the info-might try one if I can source one cheap enough- seems great variability in price on eBay. Hopefully Ember's self biasing can cope.


----------



## Makiah S

cz4a said:


> The 6SN7 and 6SL7 have the same pin outs so they work fine with the 6SN7 adapter. The 6SL7 actually draws less heater current than the 6SN7 (300mA vs. 600mA). So aside from the microphonics and sometimes tricky biasing, they work fine in my Sunrise.


 
 well I found that while they share the same pin out, the gain on each is different, the reason the 6SL7s are noisy or mircophonic has to do with a higher current gain I think, so it seems you can use a 6SL7 but not without some hang ups


----------



## Makiah S

USSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSED
  
 my two 6SN7 GE GTAs have the notorious dual black getters at the top above the arms :/ the ones that indicate useage
  
 so what is the worse case scenario for buying tubes that have the dual black dots on the top of the glass, mine have teh side getter but what... changes will I have from getting these two very used tubes


----------



## DecentLevi

Look on the bright side - it's burned in already


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> Look on the bright side - it's burned in already


 
 RIGHT q.q
  
 well they were $12.00 a pop more or less, and one of them is "off name"
  
 I should have known when he didn't post the "top" pictures they would have use :/
  
 are there any down sides to them? As far as numbers go they are at 77% an 81% 
  
 though frankly the add had two different sets of number, so chances are I'm going to write him a letter an express my discontent with his service -.-
  
 Good ness is I have some 9pins on the way, my 6n23P Vokshod Rocket [it had lots o pictures] and an ecc 81 NOS 2nd hand Telefunken, so :/ I'm not too bummed out. If I can get at least 6 months outa it I'll be happy. Chances are I'll just buy a NOS one if I can, or maybe go for one of the nicer tubes
  
@DecentLevi what has a sound simmilar to the GE 6SN7 GTA, but maybe better, Sound stage, Detail and speed are my primary concern. The GTB for example was EXACTLY as you described it, harsh on the top and a little loose in teh bottom


----------



## dpump

mshenay said:


> USSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSED
> 
> my two 6SN7 GE GTAs have the notorious dual black getters at the top above the arms :/ the ones that indicate useage
> 
> so what is the worse case scenario for buying tubes that have the dual black dots on the top of the glass, mine have teh side getter but what... changes will I have from getting these two very used tubes


 
 The black spots don't mean the tubes have been used. You will see them on new tubes. The only way to tell the condition of the tubes is to test them on a tube tester. In the meantime, I would just use them and see how they sound. I'm in Greensboro, NC so you could send them to me for testing if you would like.


----------



## Makiah S

dpump said:


> The black spots don't mean the tubes have been used. You will see them on new tubes. The only way to tell the condition of the tubes is to test them on a tube tester. In the meantime, I would just use them and see how they sound. I'm in Greensboro, NC so you could send them to me for testing if you would like.


 
 Thank you for the offer, the Seller sent them with readings, an the readings were good given the tube and the price so... I guess I'll just listen to them an see how they sound! 
  
 Here's to hoping they are just as I'm hoping they do, as I said I have the GE 6SN7 GTB and I love the sound stage an mids, but the highers r too strident an the bass could be better
 The GTA variant is apprently better in both of those area's so I'll see how they sound tonight! 
  
 but uuuuuugh xD I know as a buyer I usually avoid the dual black getter dots :/ Oh well maybe it'll sound better with the top getters... either way at $12 a tube I guess I can't gripe 
  
 BUT you know what? *The tube sounds good*... really good actually. Bass is rather impressive honestly! Really textured, almost as good as my Balanced SS, highs are nice as well! It's also a kind of Poliete tube, I have to crank the volume up a little to get the kinda bite I like in my upper mids, which... Is nice ass the added DBs give more well "fullness" for obvious tube related reasons 
  
 kinda wish I'd just bought this an pocketed that other $60 :/ oh well I'll see how I like the other tubes I Got 
  
 big thansk @DecentLevi for his recommendation!


----------



## acost

He guys! I'm really digging this thread...thanks for all your info. I have a question about fitting the dual 6J5 adapter in the ember...since I already have the 6SN7 adapter(from Jeremy) Wouldn't it be better to order the dual 6J5 to 6SN7 then run that through the 6SN7 adapter to the ember (giving you more clearance so you wouldn't have to unscrew and adjust anything on the dual unit) . I'm currently running the dual 7193 to 6SN7 adapter then running that through the 6SN7 adapter and into the ember with no problems. Is there any benefit to running directly into the ember? Sorry if this was already asked or mentioned. But I would appreciate any advice on if one way is better then another. I'm looking at picking this up and I want to make sure I'm ordering the correct adapter. Ebay


----------



## Mechans1

I am glad to see you got around to listening to the tubes.  The sounds good or bad test is really the one that counts most in my book. 
 Did the seller represent them as new never used or NOS which means the same thing.  I noted that you were looking forward to getting used NOS tubes.  The terms are mutually exclusive, you can't have new old stock tubes that are used.
 I wouldn't sweat it too much there are a lot of really good 6SN7s to try and you'll find your favorite.  The used  GE GTAs are going to last you a long time even though they tested at less than 100%.  Some tube testers have a "life test" which can give you more precise info on that score.  I bet you'll be using some other tubes before long and that these have plenty of life left in the meanwhile.


----------



## Makiah S

acost said:


> He guys! I'm really digging this thread...thanks for all your info. I have a question about fitting the dual 6J5 adapter in the ember...since I already have the 6SN7 adapter(from Jeremy) Wouldn't it be better to order the dual 6J5 to 6SN7 then run that through the 6SN7 adapter to the ember (giving you more clearance so you wouldn't have to unscrew and adjust anything on the dual unit) . I'm currently running the dual 7193 to 6SN7 adapter then running that through the 6SN7 adapter and into the ember with no problems. Is there any benefit to running directly into the ember? Sorry if this was already asked or mentioned. But I would appreciate any advice on if one way is better then another. I'm looking at picking this up and I want to make sure I'm ordering the correct adapter. Ebay


 
 Some may feel a plethera of adapters can add some unwatned noise, if there is any faults in the connection between each adapter


----------



## Makiah S

mechans1 said:


> I am glad to see you got around to listening to the tubes.  The sounds good or bad test is really the one that counts most in my book.
> Did the seller represent them as new never used or NOS which means the same thing.  I noted that you were looking forward to getting used NOS tubes.  The terms are mutually exclusive, you can't have new old stock tubes that are used.
> I wouldn't sweat it too much there are a lot of really good 6SN7s to try and you'll find your favorite.  The used  GE GTAs are going to last you a long time even though they tested at less than 100%.  Some tube testers have a "life test" which can give you more precise info on that score.  I bet you'll be using some other tubes before long and that these have plenty of life left in the meanwhile.


 
 yea I read some where the GE GTA lasts like FOREVER, legit
  
 and it's really nice sounding! Pulling out some details I usually only hear with my HE 4 ;3 these are a real winner. I kinda don't want to try the other tubes I have >.> kinda just wanna enjoy what I have
  
 but alas, maybe I can sell the others an save up for something worthwhile 
  
 Nvm, I forgot I was listening to teh Solid State :/ there are very few tracks [the poorly mastered kind] that the Starlight an W1000X are great one, other wise SS ftw all day erry day


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> USSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSED
> 
> my two 6SN7 GE GTAs have the notorious dual black getters at the top above the arms :/ the ones that indicate useage
> 
> so what is the worse case scenario for buying tubes that have the dual black dots on the top of the glass, mine have teh side getter but what... changes will I have from getting these two very used tubes


 
 I had the same problem but I read some tubes can develop those marks with minimal use.
 As others have said I would trust your ears and not bother too much about the marks as long as the tube sounds good.


----------



## Astral Abyss

acost said:


> He guys! I'm really digging this thread...thanks for all your info. I have a question about fitting the dual 6J5 adapter in the ember...since I already have the 6SN7 adapter(from Jeremy) Wouldn't it be better to order the dual 6J5 to 6SN7 then run that through the 6SN7 adapter to the ember (giving you more clearance so you wouldn't have to unscrew and adjust anything on the dual unit) . I'm currently running the dual 7193 to 6SN7 adapter then running that through the 6SN7 adapter and into the ember with no problems. Is there any benefit to running directly into the ember? Sorry if this was already asked or mentioned. But I would appreciate any advice on if one way is better then another. I'm looking at picking this up and I want to make sure I'm ordering the correct adapter. Ebay


 
  
 That's the same adapter I bought, for the same reason... clearance.  Unfortunately, I haven't bought the Visseaux 6J5 tubes I want yet because that British guy selling them for cheap ran out.  Anyway, I think you'll be fine.  Trying to get that dual 6J5 adapter out of the Ember without the extra clearance of the 6SN7 adapter sounds like a real pain in the butt.  Those Chinese adapters just barely fit into the hole in the plexiglass/aluminum cover and aren't easy to remove.


----------



## Tunkejazz

I think you can get a pair of Visseaux for £60-£70, which is what the English seller charged (he was not cheaper than some current options on ebay)


----------



## Astral Abyss

tunkejazz said:


> I think you can get a pair of Visseaux for £60-£70, which is what the English seller charged (he was not cheaper than some current options on ebay)


 
  
 He had them for 30 GBP, about $43.  I totally missed out.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6J5G-VISSEAUX-NOS-BOXED-valves-tubes-/310708999592
  
 Any links to someone selling them for a reasonable price?  My searches don't seem to turn up much, probably due to my poor search skills.


----------



## Tunkejazz

astral abyss said:


> He had them for 30 GBP, about $43.  I totally missed out.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6J5G-VISSEAUX-NOS-BOXED-valves-tubes-/310708999592
> 
> Any links to someone selling them for a reasonable price?  My searches don't seem to turn up much, probably due to my poor search skills.




Yes... £30 *each tube*, not a pair! I know because I bought one of his last pair of tubes.

This one should be similarly priced for a pair:

http://m.ebay.com/itm/2x-6J5G-6J5-VISSEAUX-50s-Foil-D-Black-Plates-Balanced-Tubes-NOS-NIB-/301848501469?nav=SEARCH


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Yes... £30 *each tube*, not a pair! I know because I bought one of his last pair of tubes.
> 
> This one should be similarly priced for a pair:
> 
> http://m.ebay.com/itm/2x-6J5G-6J5-VISSEAUX-50s-Foil-D-Black-Plates-Balanced-Tubes-NOS-NIB-/301848501469?nav=SEARCH


 
 Those look similar to the ones the UK guy was selling. At present exchange rates about same price in £ Sterling too.


----------



## HOWIE13

astral abyss said:


> That's the same adapter I bought, for the same reason... clearance.  Unfortunately, I haven't bought the Visseaux 6J5 tubes I want yet because that British guy selling them for cheap ran out.  Anyway, I think you'll be fine.  Trying to get that dual 6J5 adapter out of the Ember without the extra clearance of the 6SN7 adapter sounds like a real pain in the butt.  Those Chinese adapters just barely fit into the hole in the plexiglass/aluminum cover and aren't easy to remove.


 
 It's actually surprisingly easy to push/pull the adapter in and out of the hole by holding it firmly. Thing is though, as already mentioned, you won't clear the big front capacitors unless you turn the adapter first before using it. It's easy to do but I broke the first one I bought by being over vigourous. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 If you use two 6SN7 adapters, on the other hand, as has already been mentioned, you have more likelihood of degrading the signal and introducing noise.
 I prefer the single adapter approach, and it looks less cumbersome too. Either should work fine though.


----------



## Astral Abyss

tunkejazz said:


> Yes... £30 *each tube*, not a pair! I know because I bought one of his last pair of tubes.
> 
> This one should be similarly priced for a pair:
> 
> http://m.ebay.com/itm/2x-6J5G-6J5-VISSEAUX-50s-Foil-D-Black-Plates-Balanced-Tubes-NOS-NIB-/301848501469?nav=SEARCH




Totally missed where you said pair. That's what happens when I log in right after waking up.

Thanks for the link, I just ordered a pair. Looking forward to this.


----------



## Tunkejazz

I hope you like them!


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> I had the same problem but I read some tubes can develop those marks with minimal use.
> As others have said I would trust your ears and not bother too much about the marks as long as the tube sounds good.


 
  
 It really does sound pretty good actually  


howie13 said:


> It's actually surprisingly easy to push/pull the adapter in and out of the hole by holding it firmly. Thing is though, as already mentioned, you won't clear the big front capacitors unless you turn the adapter first before using it. It's easy to do but I broke the first one I bought by being over vigourous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That's what I worry about, I'm HALF tempted to try some of the Burson Super OPamp V5s or what ever, and they are massive meaning with dual tubes I'd have to turn my adapter, I was also curious how you guys did that


----------



## connieflyer

All you have to do is loosen the screw and carefully rotate 90 degrees, if it feels like there is stress on the wires, then try the other direction 90 degrees.I did that with my 719's and 6j5's.  The first adapter I disassembled to see just how much room there was, did not have a problem.


----------



## DecentLevi

WELCOME TO A NEW ERA OF POSSIBILITIES WITH THE EMBER!!!
  
I just noticed several variants of the 6SN7 which I can basically guarantee will be compatible with the Ember.
Introducing the *6N7G, CV1285, **NR73** ECC31* (all the 6N7G series)
_  (I will skip the CV1956 because it looks to not be available)_
  
 CV1285, NR73 & ECC31 are virtually the same tube

  
 6N7G:

  
 The voltage specs between 6SN7 and 6N7G are the same, with some minor variants across types, so are compatible:
 6N7G: Voltage 6.3, ah 0.8, plate voltage 300v max
 6NS7: Voltage 6.3, ah 0.8, plate voltage 300v max
 Here are the data-sheets that compare the voltage specs of 6SN7 to 6N7G
 http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/6sn7gt-1.pdf
 http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/6n7.pdf
  
 This should come in handy once the supply of Visseaux 6J5 runs out, and  since these are also dual triode, you will only need one. Of course a single tube would sound different than a dual tube setup, but just look at how sleek, juicy and flat-out 'sexy' these things are. Plus being so wide means it's likely no slouch in the soundstage department!
  
 Also, our trusted adapter seller Mrs. Xu Ling is already selling a compatible adapter which would fit right into your 6SN7 to 6DJ8 adapter (link)
 She can probably also make a direct 6DJ8 to 6N7G adapter if you ask her - she's been known to custom make adapters for other Head-Fi'ers.

  
 My vote goes out to the CV1285, ECC31 & NR73, but especially the ECC31, based on overwhelmingly positive impressions with this tube from other forums.
  
 To solidify my point about the dramatic improvement with 6N7G over 6SN7 series in general, here is a quote from another thread about their experience with these tubes, of which, they all unanimously agree that 6SN7's are inferior to 6N7G (referring to a quad setup with 2x2 of each):
  
 "_Wow I go from Sylvania 6sn7gtb / Mullard 6080 to Visseaux 6n7g / Chatham 6as7g and it's like stepping into Madison Garden from your local school concert._
  
_Listening to the same song, 'Private Investigations' Alchemy: Dire Straits Live(Remastered), song is full blown now. More upfront and the electric guitar will electrify you. Drums will pound you senseless. Mark Knopfler's drone will make you sit up and cast your daily cares away. This is what Visseaux 6n7g and Chatham 6as7g does to you. _
  
_Sadly there's no going back to 6sn7 for me._"
  
 However I will add that it appears all of these tubes are somewhat scarce on eBay, so you would have to source other online shops to buy from. Also for me personally, I'm unable to do try these now but it would be interesting to see the results of others so I may try also if any knockout results are found.
  
  
  
 PS - @MIKELAP or @gibosi would you have anything to add to this - about compatibility, availability, sound differences, other variants, etc.?
 PPS- Do either of you have any that you wouldn't mind to sell to some of us?


----------



## Makiah S

So we need a second Adapter to plug into the 6sn7 we currently have, they look very simmilar why do we need to of the same adapter or are they different, if so what are the differances,
  
 also $100 a tube :/ not cheap, might be worth it though. Might give it a shot here soon, I'll have to see what I can afford


----------



## DecentLevi

Yes the pins of both 6SN7 and 6N7 (appear) the same to me. However since the 6DJ8 to 6SN7 adapters do not list compatibility with 6N7, I'm assuming there must be some schematic incompatibility which would require either a 6SN7 to 6N7 adapter on top the 6SN7 adapter, or a 6DJ8 to 6N7 adapter if one existed. Hopefully one of those tube roller supreme's mentioned above would know about that.
  
 Although I haven't tried these new 6N7G series, I've read these are well regarded far and wide across various threads, and seem to be well into the land of summit-fi.
  
 EDIT: I'm sure these would need an additional adapter because the photos I've seen of other users with the 6N7 tube on the 6SN7 slot of another amp, they use the adapter for it


----------



## gibosi

decentlevi said:


> Yes the pins of both 6SN7 and 6N7 (appear) the same to me. However since the 6DJ8 to 6SN7 adapters do not list compatibility with 6N7, I'm assuming there must be some schematic incompatibility which would require either a 6SN7 to 6N7 adapter on top the 6SN7 adapter, or a 6DJ8 to 6N7 adapter if one existed. Hopefully one of those tube roller supreme's mentioned above would know about that.
> 
> Although I haven't tried these new 6N7G series, I've read these are well regarded far and wide across various threads, and seem to be well into the land of summit-fi.
> 
> EDIT: I'm sure these would need an additional adapter because the photos I've seen of other users with the 6N7 tube on the 6SN7 slot of another amp, they use the adapter for it


 
  
 In short, while the 6N7 and 6SN7 are both octals, that is, they use the same base, the pinout is different. The 6N7 and ECC31 are configured with a common cathode. That is, while the 6SN7 has two cathodes, one for each section, the two sections in the 6N7/ECC31 share the same cathode. And therefore, it is necessary to use an adapter to tie the common cathode to both cathodes in the 6SN7 socket.
  
 And to clarify, the ECC31, NR73 and CV1285 are all the same tube. The ECC31 is the civilian designation. The NR73 is the old British military designation (Naval Receiving valve #73) and the CV1285 is the later military designation (Common Valve #1285).
  
 Also, the 6N7 has a metal bottle. The 6N7G, the oldest form, has a glass coke-shaped bottle. And the 6N7GT has a straight-sided glass bottle. Personally, I prefer the older 6N7G. And an even older form of the 6N7G is the 6A6. However, it requires a different adapter as it has a 7 pin base.
  
 Cheers


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> Yes the pins of both 6SN7 and 6N7 (appear) the same to me. However since the 6DJ8 to 6SN7 adapters do not list compatibility with 6N7, I'm assuming there must be some schematic incompatibility which would require either a 6SN7 to 6N7 adapter on top the 6SN7 adapter, or a 6DJ8 to 6N7 adapter if one existed. Hopefully one of those tube roller supreme's mentioned above would know about that.
> 
> Although I haven't tried these new 6N7G series, I've read these are well regarded far and wide across various threads, and seem to be well into the land of summit-fi.
> 
> EDIT: I'm sure these would need an additional adapter because the photos I've seen of other users with the 6N7 tube on the 6SN7 slot of another amp, they use the adapter for it


 
  
  


gibosi said:


> In short, while the 6N7 and 6SN7 are both octals, that is, they use the same base, the pinout is different. The 6N7 and ECC31 are configured with a common cathode. That is, while the 6SN7 has two cathodes, one for each section, the two sections in the 6N7/ECC31 share the same cathode. And therefore, it is necessary to use an adapter to tie the common cathode to both cathodes in the 6SN7 socket.
> 
> And to clarify, the ECC31, NR73 and CV1285 are all the same tube. The ECC31 is the civilian designation. The NR73 is the old British military designation (Naval Receiving valve #73) and the CV1285 is the later military designation (Common Valve #1285).
> 
> ...


 
 Well that's good to know! And woot, there goes another $100 xD oh well I can give it a shot here in march, hopefully there will still be some floating around out there 
  
 I just kinda hope I can return the two 9pin I purchased :/ I doubt I'll be using them much any moar


----------



## HOWIE13

Very interesting tubes-might be tempted back to single twin triodes just to test out.
 Ember1 would require a supercharger with that 800mA heater current.


----------



## nwavesailor

I am currently using a 6F8G and wondered if I am figuring the current draw of 2, 6J5G's in the adapter correctly.
  
 Each draws .3 heater current so will the pair draw .6 amps of heater current?
  
 I know the 6J5G is 1/2 of a 6SN7 or more accurately, the 6SN7 (and 6F8G)  is 2, 6J5's. The 6F8G and 6SN7 draw .6 amps of heater current.
  
 Hopefully it is only .6 amp draw for the pair as I just snagged the Visseaux's 6J5G's!


----------



## HOWIE13

nwavesailor said:


> I am currently using a 6F8G and wondered if I am figuring the current draw of 2, 6J5G's in the adapter correctly.
> 
> Each draws .3 heater current so will the pair draw .6 amps of heater current?
> 
> ...


 
 You are correct. Total heater current for two 6J5's is 0.6A.


----------



## connieflyer

Enjoy those Visseaux's while you can, they may become so scarce , you may not to use them much.


----------



## nwavesailor

howie13 said:


> You are correct. Total heater current for two 6J5's is 0.6A.


 

 Thanks, Howie!!!


----------



## nwavesailor

connieflyer said:


> Enjoy those Visseaux's while you can, they may become so scarce , you may not to use them much.


 

 Well *connieflie*r, I have boxes of nice tubes that I am afraid I'll use up and I am keeping them for................WHAT?..........to sell at a garage sale when I am no longer on this pebble?
  
 I keep meaning to put post-it stickers with values on the 'good stuff' (1950's metal base GZ34, 1940's Tung Sol round plate 6SN7's) so my wife doesn't sell them after my demise for a $1 / a box of tubes!!!!
  
 If these 6J5G's are indeed the wonder tube(s) some have suggested they are, I may look back on these and wonder why I didn't get a back up pair!
  
 Life is short........ so many tubes, so little time.


----------



## connieflyer

I had them for about two weeks and ordered another pair before he ran out.


----------



## DecentLevi

gibosi said:


> In short, while the 6N7 and 6SN7 are both octals, that is, they use the same base, the pinout is different. The 6N7 and ECC31 are configured with a common cathode. That is, while the 6SN7 has two cathodes, one for each section, the two sections in the 6N7/ECC31 share the same cathode. And therefore, it is necessary to use an adapter to tie the common cathode to both cathodes in the 6SN7 socket.
> 
> And to clarify, the ECC31, NR73 and CV1285 are all the same tube. The ECC31 is the civilian designation. The NR73 is the old British military designation (Naval Receiving valve #73) and the CV1285 is the later military designation (Common Valve #1285).
> 
> ...


 
 Brilliant insight, thanks so much! Would you happen to know a good source for some of the 6N7 /G /GT series? Or would you know anyone who wouldn't mind to sell a few? Because they're a rare find. I'm just asking for the group's benefit although I'm not ready to get one yet.


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> Brilliant insight, thanks so much! Would you happen to know a good source for some of the 6N7 /G /GT series? Or would you know anyone who wouldn't mind to sell a few? Because they're a rare find. I'm just asking for the group's benefit although I'm not ready to get one yet.


 
 I agree, I think we'd all like to know xD 
  
 I might be ready to try a set my self, if they sound as good single as they claim, they might be worth it in the Starlight, with an OP amp upgrade


----------



## gibosi

decentlevi said:


> Brilliant insight, thanks so much! Would you happen to know a good source for some of the 6N7 /G /GT series? Or would you know anyone who wouldn't mind to sell a few? Because they're a rare find. I'm just asking for the group's benefit although I'm not ready to get one yet.


 
  
 I have purchased all of mine on eBay. While not plentiful, they do pop up every so often. And these tubes have been popular with the Elise crowd, so you might want to check to see if anyone there has any extras they might be willing to sell.
  
 And one caveat: These tubes draw more heater current than a 6SN7. The 6SN7 and 6F8G draw 0.6A. The 6N7G and 6A6 draw 0.8A. And the ECC31/NR73/CV1285 draws 0.9A. I have no idea how much heater current the Project Ember can provide, so I encourage you to verify that your amp can handle this load before you go forward with these.
  
 FYI, I am using these tubes in a very different amp:


----------



## DecentLevi

Oh that's quite within the Ember's parameters of 0.9ah and even +0.3 is acceptable too, I've heard


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> Oh that's quite within the Ember's parameters of 0.9ah and even +0.3 is acceptable too, I've heard


 
 I've heard the Starlight can provide up to 1.0 any one also able to confirm this?


----------



## DecentLevi

As far as I understand, the Ember / Starlight both output heat current of 0.9 amps, and could still be OK with up to 1.2 amps at most. 
  
 From the Elise thread, looks like you're in luck if you want to contact UT
  


untilthen said:


> Yes I do have a NOS NR73 / ECC31 and several 6N7Gs to part with for price I pay for. All tested and working flawlessly on Elise.
> 
> A pair of Philco 6N7G. I won't sell single on this as a single is useless to me.
> A pair of Visseaux 6N7G - this you have to twist my arms for me to sell it.
> ...


 
 note: the FDD20 would require a different adapter, plus an external 12 volt separate power supply. I have those tubes but am not sure to mess with all that project for the Ember
  
 PS- I've bought tubes from UT, and his service / packaging was top notch!


----------



## gibosi

decentlevi said:


> note: the FDD20 would require a different adapter, plus an external 12 volt separate power supply. I have those tubes but am not sure to mess with all that project for the Ember


 
  
 My best guess is the FDD20 is a 6N7G that was retooled during WWII to run on 12 volt batteries, and yes, it has a very funky base. I quite like this tube, but there is no way to know beforehand if it would sound good enough in the Ember to be worth the extra effort.... 
  

  
 And after you remove the gray paint, it's one of the prettiest tubes out there.


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks for the encouragement. I guess I'll give the FDD20 a go in my Ember in the next few weeks.
  
 +  + 
  
 (it uses this adapter)
  
 I hope someone else will give the 6N7 setup a try... to make it even


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> Thanks for the encouragement. I guess I'll give the FDD20 a go in my Ember in the next few weeks.
> 
> +  +
> 
> ...


 
 I just closed a deal with Until then on one of his ECC31s with an adapter :/ so now I have like way to many tubes >.> plus side is I've been wanting to go on a diet!  Now it's Rice/Eggs/Kale all day erraday for months ;3 
  
 but no seriously, I've got tubes for sale q.q what's the best way to move them? Maybe like a BIG bundle or something


----------



## Astral Abyss

mshenay said:


> I just closed a deal with Until then on one of his ECC31s with an adapter :/ so now I have like way to many tubes >.> plus side is I've been wanting to go on a diet!  Now it's Rice/Eggs/Kale all day erraday for months ;3
> 
> but no seriously, I've got tubes for sale q.q what's the best way to move them? Maybe like a BIG bundle or something


 
  
 Well, the best way is to tell us what you've got.


----------



## DecentLevi

mshenay said:


> I just closed a deal with Until then on one of his ECC31s with an adapter :/ so now I have like way to many tubes >.> plus side is I've been wanting to go on a diet!  Now it's Rice/Eggs/Kale all day erraday for months ;3
> 
> but no seriously, I've got tubes for sale q.q what's the best way to move them? Maybe like a BIG bundle or something


 

 Congrats Mshenay - you're the first person to chart these new waters with the 6N7 series on the Ember! Please tell us how it goes. Wow UntilThen's throwing in an adapter? I'd expect nothing less from him: he's a real world-class member and has even just given a sighteeing tour to another Head-Fi'er that came to meet him from the mid-east! A word of caution though is that while I can assure you these tubes have garnered praise in other amps, there's no guarantee they will sound good with the Ember so I hope you would please take this as 'trial & error' - but I think that's what tube rolling is all about in the first place. No pain no gain (unless you're on_ high gain _it may balance out the pain LOL). Also keep in mind shipping from Australia usually takes around 3 weeks.
  
 I would also like to know how to get rid of a big bundle of assorted tubes. I'm assuming just email some of the tube stores.


----------



## nephilim

Hi,
  
 I am following @DecentLevi's call on the Elise forum.
  
 I have a pair of Mazda 6N7G, three Fivre 6N7G and a pair of ECC31 > 6SN7 (made by xulingmrs, black plastic version) available. Please PM if interested.


----------



## aqsw

Hey Guys,

I'm coming over from the Elise thread. 
DecentLevi asked for anyone with extra 6N7G tubes to come here.
I have four Mazda 6N7G tubes. I bought them NOS. Two have about an hour on them.
The other two have about 4 hours on them.These are ST ( coke bottle ) shaped.
 My Elise just does not like these tubes.
PM me if interested.


----------



## connieflyer

I sent a large batch of tubes to Jeremy, and when he gives you the price for used tubes you will be surprised how little they are actutally worth.  I sold him, last fall, a bunch of 9 pins, probably lost 70 percent of what I paid.  I have alot of 9 pin, 6sn7, 7193's and adapter I am going to bundle up and sell all or nothing.  Only other way would be Ebay each tube, which I might do, throw in the Visseaux , senn 650's see what sticks.


----------



## nwavesailor

There is a classified section here on HeadFi where all gear, including tubes, are listed for sale.
  
 I haven't personally used it, so it may not be worth listing but at least folks here know and may be looking for these tubes. E-Bay will take 10% but it is where I generally sell tubes.


----------



## joespride

Classified here is decent, but please mention any sales here as well so we know whats to expect....................I am definitely on the lookout for the 6j5 upgrade coming up for sale, also interested in about any other tubes I dont currently have..................anyone looking to sell shoot me a PM


----------



## nwavesailor

connieflyer said:


> I sent a large batch of tubes to Jeremy, and when he gives you the price for used tubes you will be surprised how little they are actutally worth.  I sold him, last fall, a bunch of 9 pins, probably lost 70 percent of what I paid.  I have alot of 9 pin, 6sn7, 7193's and adapter I am going to bundle up and sell all or nothing.  Only other way would be Ebay each tube, which I might do, throw in the Visseaux , senn 650's see what sticks.


 

 YIKES! After snagging a 'backup' pair of Visseaux 6J5G's they may be going up on E-Bay? There must be a new shiny object that has caught your eye...........or has the tube not been the 'Holy Grail' for you?


----------



## CZ4A

The Visseaux 6J5s are tempting... but I need to wait until I get my paycheck before I go making any buying decisions. I've been enjoying the heck out of my Ken-Rad 6C8G though!
  

  
 If the RCA 6F8 is mellow and the Raytheon 6F8 is analytical, the K-R 6C8 is the fun one! You want bass? You got it and lots of it! Mids? Yep! Highs? Maybe not too high, but nice enough. There's plenty of separation and a massive soundstage. This one has instantly rocketed into my favorites list.


----------



## CZ4A

decentlevi said:


> WELCOME TO A NEW ERA OF POSSIBILITIES WITH THE EMBER!!!
> 
> I just noticed several variants of the 6SN7 which I can basically guarantee will be compatible with the Ember.
> Introducing the *6N7G, CV1285, **NR73** ECC31* (all the 6N7G series)
> ...


 
 I noticed that besides scarcity, these guys can also get idiotically expensive.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MP-of-MULLARD-NR73-CV1285-ECC31-6N7-Tube-NOS-NIB-Square-Getter-229-/291475747843?hash=item43dd4ef403:g:6JoAAOSwZd1VZG53
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MULLARD-ECC31-NR-73-OLD-STOCK-PAIR-OF-AVO-TESTED-VINTAGE-VALVES-FREE-SHIPPING-/172057079655?hash=item280f66af67:g:4n8AAOSwcwhVK0cR
  
 Speaking of alternatives, anyone have any experience with the type 76/6Y7G? If I'm reading the datasheets right, they are twin triodes with a single cathode like the 6N7 and have the same amp draw, but low gain. The 76 is an old 5-pin but the 6Y7G is the octal version. I included the 76's datasheet because some manufacturers' 6Y7G datasheets say to refer to it.
  
 http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/7/76.pdf
 http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6Y7G.pdf
  
 Thoughts, comments, concerns?


----------



## sneaky415

cz4a said:


> Speaking of alternatives, anyone have any experience with the type 76/6Y7G? If I'm reading the datasheets right, they are twin triodes with a single cathode like the 6N7 and have the same amp draw, but low gain. The 76 is an old 5-pin but the 6Y7G is the octal version. I included the 76's datasheet because some manufacturers' 6Y7G datasheets say to refer to it.
> 
> http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/7/76.pdf
> http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/6/6Y7G.pdf
> ...


 
  
 I have the Sylvania 76's. They are single triodes so you need a pair, there is an adapter to purchase on ebay. You can also use the 37's with the same adapter. The Sylvania 76's are nice tubes but nothing revolutionary to me.


----------



## Makiah S

astral abyss said:


> Well, the best way is to tell us what you've got.


 
 1975 Grey Sheild Vokshod Rocket Single Wire UFO getter [white boxed] 
 NOS Ecc81 Telefunken [With Box and Plastic on the bottom] Gently used maybe 30 hours just got this today. Sound is really great! Clear top end, and excellent dynamics, but intimate 
 GE 6SN7 GTB [you need a bright tube this here's a BRIGHT tube] (with stock box) [Good sound stage really amazing top end detail] 
 Rca 12ua7 Clear Top [white boxed] [it's a baby GE GTB ] 
 Russian 6n6p [with box] [Heavier than the Telefunken, but not as fast] 
 Reflektor 6n23p dual wire, ufo getter [white boxed] 
  
 Price wise, I paid $45 (so $44 shipped) for the Vok Shod, $25 for the Telefunken ($24 shipped), an I'd go like $15 shipped on any of the others or all four of them for $40 shipped 
  
 or hell buy em all for like $80 shipped 
  


decentlevi said:


> Congrats Mshenay - you're the first person to chart these new waters with the 6N7 series on the Ember! Please tell us how it goes. Wow UntilThen's throwing in an adapter? I'd expect nothing less from him: he's a real world-class member and has even just given a sighteeing tour to another Head-Fi'er that came to meet him from the mid-east! A word of caution though is that while I can assure you these tubes have garnered praise in other amps, there's no guarantee they will sound good with the Ember so I hope you would please take this as 'trial & error' - but I think that's what tube rolling is all about in the first place. No pain no gain (unless you're on_ high gain _it may balance out the pain LOL). Also keep in mind shipping from Australia usually takes around 3 weeks.
> 
> I would also like to know how to get rid of a big bundle of assorted tubes. I'm assuming just email some of the tube stores.


 
  
 Well fingers Crossed! My Octal sounds better than my 9pins :/ honestly after getting into 8pins the small tubes sound... well small. Like... it's very noticeable <.< so that said BIGGER IS BETTER BABY... 
  
 also holy crap he's from AUS ugh, that shipping time... oh well faster than from Ukraine 
  


joespride said:


> Classified here is decent, but please mention any sales here as well so we know whats to expect....................I am definitely on the lookout for the 6j5 upgrade coming up for sale, also interested in about any other tubes I dont currently have..................anyone looking to sell shoot me a PM


 
 I've been using the classifieds for years, it's almost all went smoothly [I had ONE sale, international BAD tracking got screwed]


----------



## connieflyer

nwavesailor said:


> YIKES! After snagging a 'backup' pair of Visseaux 6J5G's they may be going up on E-Bay? There must be a new shiny object that has caught your eye...........or has the tube not been the 'Holy Grail' for you?


 

 Nope still the top of the line for me, but I do enjoy the 7193's for classical, nice deep base with the Ken-Rad's and the Visseaux for everything else.  The 6L5's are also really good,  The 6C5's are especially good if you have a pair of bright headphones, as they are a little warm. None of mine are so those can go.  I will get a price, got the list, and try to decide if to sell all in a bundle or break it up, about 42 tubes, some 9 pins also if I sell in a bundle it will be a steal.  Depends how many you want to roll I guess.  Been looking at a couple of new amps that don't use the tubes I have.  Will be keeping the Ember and one set of VIsseaux, the first pair as these are broken in nicely.  I can post a list if you want


----------



## nwavesailor

I too have so many tubes from various gear over the years it isn't funny!
  
 I would want to wait for my Visseaux to arrive before snagging a second pair. If they are as good as you, and some others say, I'll be licking myself. The supply may be thin, but there are still more out there to buy if you spend the $$$!


----------



## JazzVinyl

decentlevi said:


> Thanks for the encouragement. I guess I'll give the FDD20 a go in my Ember in the next few weeks.
> 
> I hope someone else will give the 6N7 setup a try... to make it even




Note that the FDD20's that are not covered in grey paint, and labelled "Philips Miniwatt" sound a little nice that the ones painted grey, and labelled "RCV" and tend to cost a bit more, as well. 

But are worth it, you are very likely fall in love with FDD20's.

Cheers!!


----------



## Makiah S

jazzvinyl said:


> Note that the FDD20's that are not covered in grey paint, and labelled "Philips Miniwatt" sound a little nice that the ones painted grey, and labelled "RCV" and tend to cost a bit more, as well.
> 
> But are worth it, you are very likely fall in love with FDD20's.
> 
> Cheers!!


 
 haha, @DecentLevi you might have to be our first FDD20 adopter ;3, if not for the power supply requirements I'd try one :/ still though Mullard makes a good tube here's to hoping it sounds better than what I have ^^


----------



## DecentLevi

Yup, looks like I'll be the 'man on the moon' with the FDD20 on the Ember. Don't hold your breath though, these tubes appear to be _ultra _rare.
  
The 6N7 / ECC31 tubes sure are expensive - and rare with it seems a median price of $200... 
however, NOT TO FRET!
Welcome to zone 6A6! 
  
My good old friend UntilThen tipped me off about these little (or should I say *huge*) gems. Not only do they appear similar to the 6N7 series, but they are also perfectly compatible for the Ember / Starlight with a 6a6 adapter. (6.3v / 8.8a / 250max voltage versus 6SN7 here). All you need is the 6A6 to 6SN7 adapter (along with a 6DJ8 to 6SN7 adapter), and it's already available from our trusty eBay seller here.
  

  
Oh and speaking of *huge*, there are GOLIATH-huge savings on the 6A6 over the 7N7 tubes! It looks like the average price is $2 - $10 for these tubes, and there are hundreds on the likes of eBay - and of a very diverse variety. Here are some that I've just seen for around $4:
  
 
  
 
  
 So now that I'm testing FDD20 and Mshenay is testing an ECC31 (of the 7N7 class), let's see who wants to take the status of 'man on the moon' with the 6A6...


----------



## Makiah S

Holy Crap $4 I'll bit on that! Are these Dual or Single Triodes?


----------



## DecentLevi

These are dual triodes, so you only need one. Yeah the shipping and adapter both cost more than the tubes, but the 6A6 do need their own adapter. Also note that there are a large variety of these, so even if one doesn't sound eargasmic doesn't mean that others won't


----------



## Astral Abyss

Is this not the greatest amp (and thread) ever?  I mean, the variety of tubes we can roll is incredible.  It was one of the main reasons I was inspired to sell my Lyr 2 and buy this amp instead.  I haven't regretted it for a minute.


----------



## HOWIE13

astral abyss said:


> Is this not the greatest amp (and thread) ever?  I mean, the variety of tubes we can roll is incredible.  It was one of the main reasons I was inspired to sell my Lyr 2 and buy this amp instead.  I haven't regretted it for a minute.


 
 It's certainly an amp that invites and is responsive to experimentation and innovation.
 As to the thread-well, if you take your eye off the discussion, even for a day, you can have a lot of catching up to do-that's for sure !


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> These are dual triodes, so you only need one. Yeah the shipping and adapter both cost more than the tubes, but the 6A6 do need their own adapter. Also note that there are a large variety of these, so even if one doesn't sound eargasmic doesn't mean that others won't


 
 ooooh! Maybe when I get my old tube sold, I can start trying these out!


----------



## TraceStar

Look what waited for me when I got back o







Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## connieflyer

Enjoy them, I was listening to mine again last nite and decided I was not going to sell my backup pair.  These are some special tubes, to be sure


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> Enjoy them, I was listening to mine again last nite and decided I was not going to sell my backup pair.  These are some special tubes, to be sure


 
 Very wise decision.


----------



## Makiah S

I'm curious how did you guys get the Adapter installed like front to back as opposed to left to right


----------



## TraceStar

mshenay said:


> I'm curious how did you guys get the Adapter installed like front to back as opposed to left to right


 
  
 There's a screw in the middle. Loosen it up a bit and very gently twist it. It should turn in one direction safely, the one that doesn't have resistance. Tighten the screw afterwards


----------



## nwavesailor

tracestar said:


> Look what waited for me when I got back
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Gotta know what you think of those puppies????????
  
 Got a pair in route from the same seller and an adapter as well....................tick-tock, tick tock........


----------



## Astral Abyss

nwavesailor said:


> Gotta know what you think of those puppies????????
> 
> Got a pair in route from the same seller and an adapter as well....................tick-tock, tick tock........




As do I. He shipped them yesterday so maybe a week or so?

Adapter is here and ready for action.


----------



## TraceStar

nwavesailor said:


> Gotta know what you think of those puppies????????
> 
> Got a pair in route from the same seller and an adapter as well....................tick-tock, tick tock........


 
  
 Love em. Funny thing is, they basically sound the same as the Zenith 6J5s I've been using, which I really loved. At least on my Grado GH-1s Can't tell the difference between them in the past couple of hours I've been using them. The only plus for me is that they're not microphonic. The Zenith was a bit, so I didn't type as much when I was using it. I'm still satisfied. I end up with an extra pair for backup and now, I don't itch to try out these babies LOL. 
  
 Anyway I'll only know for sure when I switch back to the Zenith after a few days using these. But that's for later as I'm going away for a week or so. Means I'll continue my listening and check in with u fellas in a couple of weeks.


----------



## nwavesailor

tracestar said:


> Love em. Funny thing is, they basically sound the same as the Zenith 6J5s I've been using, which I really loved. At least on my Grado GH-1s Can't tell the difference between them in the past couple of hours I've been using them. The only plus for me is that they're not microphonic. The Zenith was a bit, so I didn't type as much when I was using it. I'm still satisfied. I end up with an extra pair for backup and now, I don't itch to try out these babies LOL.


 

 Interesting...........If you look at the Zenith 6J5G do they also have oval (round) plates as in the Visseaux?
  
 The early Tung Sol and National Union 6F8G's with the round plates are said to sound mo betta than the ladder plates.


----------



## nwavesailor

astral abyss said:


> As do I. He shipped them yesterday so maybe a week or so?
> 
> Adapter is here and ready for action.


 

 I was a bit slow in getting my adapter ordered, so the tubes will likely arrive first.
  
 I'll have plenty of time to check them on my testers prior to using them at any rate!


----------



## HOWIE13

nwavesailor said:


> Interesting...........If you look at the Zenith 6J5G do they also have oval (round) plates as in the Visseaux?
> 
> The early Tung Sol and National Union 6F8G's with the round plates are said to sound mo betta than the ladder plates.


 
 CANCELLED POSTED IN WRONG PLACE.


----------



## TraceStar

nwavesailor said:


> tracestar said:
> 
> 
> > Love em. Funny thing is, they basically sound the same as the Zenith 6J5s I've been using, which I really loved. At least on my Grado GH-1s Can't tell the difference between them in the past couple of hours I've been using them. The only plus for me is that they're not microphonic. The Zenith was a bit, so I didn't type as much when I was using it. I'm still satisfied. I end up with an extra pair for backup and now, I don't itch to try out these babies LOL.
> ...




Not sure which ones are the plates but they look pretty similar to me. Some slight differences in the build, like those wires on top there to the glass. Those aren't in the Viss. 












Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## HOWIE13

tracestar said:


> Love em. Funny thing is, they basically sound the same as the Zenith 6J5s I've been using, which I really loved. At least on my Grado GH-1s Can't tell the difference between them in the past couple of hours I've been using them. The only plus for me is that they're not microphonic. The Zenith was a bit, so I didn't type as much when I was using it. I'm still satisfied. I end up with an extra pair for backup and now, I don't itch to try out these babies LOL.
> 
> Anyway I'll only know for sure when I switch back to the Zenith after a few days using these. But that's for later as I'm going away for a week or so. Means I'll continue my listening and check in with u fellas in a couple of weeks.


 
 In 1948 Visseaux and Sylvania developed technical collaboration. In addition, some Sylvania manufactured tubes, including I gather 6SN7's, were rebranded as Zenith tubes.
 I don't know about 6J5 tubes being rebranded but it's not impossible that your Zeniths may, technically at least , be very similar to Visseaux


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> In 1948 Visseaux and Sylvania developed technical collaboration. In addition, some Sylvania manufactured tubes, including I gather 6SN7's, were rebranded as Zenith tubes.
> I don't know about 6J5 tubes being rebranded but it's not impossible that your Zeniths may, technically at least , be very similar to Visseaux


 
 ooh if you can confirm that, we might have a inexpensive way to get around the lack of Visseaux


----------



## CZ4A

sneaky415 said:


> I have the Sylvania 76's. They are single triodes so you need a pair, there is an adapter to purchase on ebay. You can also use the 37's with the same adapter. The Sylvania 76's are nice tubes but nothing revolutionary to me.


 

 Derp, I meant type 7*9*, not type 7*6*.
  
 http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/7/79.pdf


----------



## nwavesailor

tracestar said:


> Not sure which ones are the plates but they look pretty similar to me. Some slight differences in the build, like those wires on top there to the glass. Those aren't in the Viss.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Can't really see the plate shape from your photos. Here is the E-Bay photo from the seller we both bought our 'V' tubes from:
  

  
  
 Notice the 'round' (actually oval) part in the center of the plate between the 2 mica's?
  
 This era (40's/50's) and/or 'round' shape of the plate is said to sound better than the flat or ladder plates.


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> Notice the 'round' (actually oval) part in the center of the plate between the 2 mica's?
> 
> This era (40's/50's) and/or 'round' shape of the plate is said to sound better than the flat or ladder plates.


 
 my GE has a nice Round Plate in the middle as well, it really does sound great! The Admiral I have on the other hand, is... staggered or something either way
  
 it seems that this plate shape is holding  a positive feed back!


----------



## nwavesailor

mshenay said:


> my GE has a nice Round Plate in the middle as well, it really does sound great! The Admiral I have on the other hand, is... staggered or something either way
> 
> it seems that this plate shape is holding  a positive feed back!


 

 Yep Mshenay, the WW ll era round plate version of Tung Sol 6SN7 and (VT231) and Tung Sol (and National Union) 6F8G (VT99) are great sounding tubes. Some attribute this to the round plates but is likely how and what they used to make them back in the 1940's. If given a choice between flat and round plates of a given tube, I'll take the round plate version! 
  
 Does this magic hold true for all round (oval) plate tubes?..............don't know.............


----------



## connieflyer

Found these on Ebay 6n7 metal....http://www.ebay.com/itm/FIVE-SYLVANIA-6N7-METAL-TUBES-NOS-NIB-/191788928485?hash=item2ca782cde5:g:bAYAAOSwL7VWodpL   $39 US
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-6N7-ECC31-NR73-TRIODE-FIVRE-ITALY-NEW-OLD-STOCK-/221987742402?hash=item33af8022c2:gL4AAOSw5dNWjXVD   $31 US
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-FIVE-SYLVANIA-6N7-METAL-TUBES-NEW-OLD-STOCK-/191788929088?hash=item2ca782d040:g:W0sAAOSwpRRWodqE   5pcs $39 US
  
 Just have to look around,
  
 6A6 is just predecessor to 6N7....http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6n7g.html


----------



## nwavesailor

connieflyer said:


> Found these on Ebay 6n7 metal....http://www.ebay.com/itm/FIVE-SYLVANIA-6N7-METAL-TUBES-NOS-NIB-/191788928485?hash=item2ca782cde5:g:bAYAAOSwL7VWodpL   $39 US
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-6N7-ECC31-NR73-TRIODE-FIVRE-ITALY-NEW-OLD-STOCK-/221987742402?hash=item33af8022c2:gL4AAOSw5dNWjXVD   $31 US
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-FIVE-SYLVANIA-6N7-METAL-TUBES-NEW-OLD-STOCK-/191788929088?hash=item2ca782d040:g:W0sAAOSwpRRWodqE   5pcs $39 US
> ...


 

 Just my biased opinion on visuals: I want to  see 'nice looking' tubes in any audio application............these 6N7 metal can tubes may be the most awesome sounding tubes on the planet...........just can't get past the drab black metal!
  
 Perhaps I'm being silly and missing out on a great sound and value as well...........I guess that will be my loss.
  
 Life is too short for ugly vacuum tubes


----------



## DecentLevi

​  ​ Who will be the first '6A6 man on the moon'?​


----------



## connieflyer

Quote: 





nwavesailor said:


> Just my biased opinion on visuals: I want to  see 'nice looking' tubes in any audio application............these 6N7 metal can tubes may be the most awesome sounding tubes on the planet...........just can't get past the drab black metal!
> 
> Perhaps I'm being silly and missing out on a great sound and value as well...........I guess that will be my loss.
> 
> Life is too short for ugly vacuum tubes


 
   How do these look?


----------



## TraceStar

nwavesailor said:


> tracestar said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure which ones are the plates but they look pretty similar to me. Some slight differences in the build, like those wires on top there to the glass. Those aren't in the Viss.
> ...




Ah that's the plate. It is round indeed

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> Yep Mshenay, the WW ll era round plate version of Tung Sol 6SN7 and (VT231) and Tung Sol (and National Union) 6F8G (VT99) are great sounding tubes. Some attribute this to the round plates but is likely how and what they used to make them back in the 1940's. If given a choice between flat and round plates of a given tube, *I'll take the round plate version!*
> 
> Does this magic hold true for all round (oval) plate tubes?..............don't know.............


 
  
  


nwavesailor said:


> Just my biased opinion on visuals: I want to  see 'nice looking' tubes in any audio application............these 6N7 metal can tubes may be the most awesome sounding tubes on the planet...........just can't get past the drab black metal!
> 
> Perhaps I'm being silly and missing out on a great sound and value as well...........I guess that will be my loss.
> 
> Life is too short for ugly vacuum tubes


 
 Ugh gawd yes, I tried to like my 9pin, I spent an hour with it... but sounded small AND looked small >.> so I'm with you man, I don't think I could handle that metal jacketed tube... though it might look really great with the black CNCed Alluminum on my Starlight... 
  


tracestar said:


> Ah that's the plate. It is round indeed
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


 
  
 Then I here by declare the establishment of the Round Plate Mafia lol, may we work together brothers for the glory of the round plate!


----------



## nwavesailor

connieflyer said:


> How do these look?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


>


 
 OP we need PICS PICS!!! lol


----------



## nwavesailor

Instead of RPM (Round Plate Mafia) how about a new NRA (*Neurotic Roundplate Aficionados*)
  
 To borrow a quote from the other NRA's Charlton Heston:
  
 "You can have my Round Plate Tubes when you pry them from my cold dead hands!"


----------



## LiquidDan

The bugle boy is my favourite, so much energy in the sound


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> Instead of RPM (Round Plate Mafia) how about a new NRA (*Neurotic Roundplate Aficionados*)
> 
> To borrow a quote from the other NRA's Charlton Heston:
> 
> "You can have my Round Plate Tubes when you pry them from my cold dead hands!"


 
 omg YES, that's fantastic man!  we should put it in our sigs xD


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> ooh if you can confirm that, we might have a inexpensive way to get around the lack of Visseaux


 
 A nice thought- though I think we may have to rely on our ears to determine this.


----------



## TraceStar

howie13 said:


> mshenay said:
> 
> 
> > ooh if you can confirm that, we might have a inexpensive way to get around the lack of Visseaux
> ...




True. Each person's hearing is different. Headphones used are also different. BTW... I think the Zenith are even more rare LOL. Less expensive though

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## connieflyer

Not much cheaper,,,,,http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Zenith-USA-6J5G-Black-Flat-Plate-Engraved-Base-S-Rods-Rtl-Vacuum-Tube-/151959399101?hash=item23617c6abd:g:MJgAAOSw1S9WewWo .... still command high prices.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

While still waiting for my adapter to arrive, I've been getting more and more addicted to my Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome Dome. If I'm not mistaken, it's from the '60s with brown letters and a black base. Does somebody know how the signatures of other Chrome domed Sylvania tubes like earlier GT, GTA, green and yellow labels, brown base, etc. compare/differ from this one?


----------



## HOWIE13

bobmonkhouse said:


> While still waiting for my adapter to arrive, I've been getting more and more addicted to my Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome Dome. If I'm not mistaken, it's from the '60s with brown letters and a black base. Does somebody know how the signatures of other Chrome domed Sylvania tubes like earlier GT, GTA, green and yellow labels, brown base, etc. compare/differ from this one?


 
 I find this post very useful for background information about 6SN7's:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 There's quite a lot about Sylvania Chrome Domes about half way down the first post.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Thanks @HOWIE13! I also found this thread after I posted my question here. It's very informative.


----------



## nwavesailor

howie13 said:


> I find this post very useful for background information about 6SN7's:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
> 
> There's quite a lot about Sylvania Chrome Domes about half way down the first post.


 

 I found this a few years ago. The opinions are from a guy I only recall as user name 'Len'. He has tried most every 6SN7 made and here is his TOP 10!
  
 I have read many posts from 'Len' and he knows this tube!

 Ten 6SN7 Recommendations Having auditioned most 6SN7s (and there are a lot of them), I've decided to draft a list of ten "must audition" tubes. I chose these selections based on not only absolute performance, but also for sonic diversity. I am confident you will find a 6SN7 that suits your needs and/or preferences from the tubes listed below. Disclaimer: This is not a top ten list. There are many other excellent performers that missed the cut for various reasons. You may very well prefer a 6SN7 that is not on this list. And of course, this is all just my personal opinion. My goal is to provide a list of 6SN7 recommendations that provide excellent sonics but sound significantly different. Tubes are listed in alphabetical order (not by ranking).

 Brimar 6SN7GT/6SN7GTY: Lush. This is arguably the warmest, most "round" sounding 6SN7 produced. While in some systems, it may sound slow and bloated, in other systems, it sounds lush and wonderfully bloomy.

 Ken Rad 6SN7GT/VT-231: Bass champs. The treble may not be the most refined, but both the clear and black glass versions provide world-class bass performance married with a sweet and seductive midrange.

 Hytron 6SN7GT: Neutral and fast. Need speed and clarity? Hytrons are very hard to top. This is definitely my personal tube of choice for detail and neutrality. I liken Hytrons to crystal clear streams.

 National Union gray glass 6SN7GT: Liquid and mellow. This tube is perfect to tame harsh systems or if you are looking for more open ambience from your 6SN7. NU GG is like floating on cloud nine.

 Raytheon 6SN7GT/VT-231 type II flat plates: Sweet PRAT. This tube is much like the Hytron 6SN7GT, but with a sweeter tone. Not quite as detailed or neutral as the Hytron, but arguably more seductive.

 RCA gray glass 6SN7GT/VT-231: Romanticism and warmth. The RCA gray glass possesses a full midbass and gorgeous harmonic richness, but yet delicate and detailed. When I crave the quintessential tube sound, the RCA gray glass is the first tube I plug in.

 Sylvania 6SN7GT/VT-231: Heavenly from the belt up. I call this tube the anti-thesis of the Ken Rad 6SN7GT/VT-231. While somewhat lacking in bass impact, the Sylvania 6SN7GT/VT-231 arguably produces the most beautiful midrange and top end in this family of tubes. Its midrange is clear and open, and the treble is smooth as butter yet unrivaled in its detail and spatial separation. Zero listener fatigue is guaranteed.

 Sylvania "Bad Boys" 6SN7GT (1951-1953): World class everything. Imagine the Sylvania VT-231. Now imagine it with bass in spades! What you have is Sylvania 6SN7GT from this era, often reverently referred to as "Bad Boys." This tube is often mentioned in "best 6SN7" discussions.

 Sylvania 6SN7W: Dynamics and slam. I can think of no other 6SN7 with more visceral energy then the Sylvania 6SN7W. From earth-shattering bass to the sparkling treble, all three versions of the 6SN7Ws provide a full throttle musical experience. The Sylvania 6SN7W certainly earns its place as a legendary 6SN7.

 Tung Sol 6SN7GT/VT-231 round plates: Absolute silk. This tube needs no introduction. The Tung Sol round plates are arguably the most sought after 6SN7 for its "organic rightness." -Len


----------



## HOWIE13

nwavesailor said:


> I found this a few years ago. The opinions are from a guy I only recall as user name 'Len'. He has tried most every 6SN7 made and here is his TOP 10!
> 
> I have read many posts from 'Len' and he knows this tube!
> 
> ...


 
 WOW!! Thanks for all that info in an easily readable form.


----------



## CZ4A

howie13 said:


> I find this post very useful for background information about 6SN7's:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
> 
> There's quite a lot about Sylvania Chrome Domes about half way down the first post.


 

 It's a shame the pictures don't work anymore. I'm fairly sure I have a few Chrome Domes in my collection but without a picture I'm not entirely sure. So I ask here: Do the Chrome Domes have the plates canted at an angle like these?


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Wow! It's a lot of great info guys! Thanks nwavesailor for your post, it's exactly what I needed.
  
 I don't know how the dual tube setup will work for me, but I'll definitely chase a few of the mentioned 6SN7s to try. I can't exactly describe why I like it so much but I can tell my Sylvania GTB sounds very smooth with great lush mid-range and without noticeable gaps or spikes/dips in the transitions while at the same time the bass doesn't sound (too) slow nor the top lacking (much) details. It's by no means a reference or flat sounding tube but it's very easy with it to forget about analytical and just enjoy the music.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

cz4a said:


> It's a shame the pictures don't work anymore. I'm fairly sure I have a few Chrome Domes in my collection but without a picture I'm not entirely sure. So I ask here: Do the Chrome Domes have the plates canted at an angle like these?
> 
> <pic snip>


 
  
 Yes, from what I've read, I believe all have angled plates except one mid '40s GT model with a green label and a bottom getter.


----------



## Makiah S

howie13 said:


> I find this post very useful for background information about 6SN7's:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
> 
> There's quite a lot about Sylvania Chrome Domes about half way down the first post.


 
 I read almost that entire thread, their comments about the GE GTB and GTA are why I own a set, though at the end of the day I spent my $100 not on a 6SN7 but the mullard ECC31, I'll let you guys know how it compares to my modest 6SN7 
  


bobmonkhouse said:


> Wow! It's a lot of great info guys! Thanks nwavesailor for your post, it's exactly what I needed.
> 
> I don't know how the dual tube setup will work for me, but I'll definitely chase a few of the mentioned 6SN7s to try. I can't exactly describe why I like it so much but I can tell my Sylvania GTB sounds very smooth with great lush mid-range and without noticeable gaps or spikes/dips in the transitions while at the same time the bass doesn't sound (too) slow nor the top lacking (much) details. It's by no means a reference or flat sounding tube but it's very easy with it to forget about analytical and just enjoy the music.


 
 mhmm, I really liked that thread as well


----------



## Tunkejazz

I have said this before, but if any of you want to source a real Sylvania triple mica "Bad Boy" just let me know (~42 EUR + shipping).
 I have way to many laying around and I only need to keep 2. I can send pictures.


----------



## ericr

cz4a said:


> It's a shame the pictures don't work anymore. I'm fairly sure I have a few Chrome Domes in my collection but without a picture I'm not entirely sure. So I ask here: Do the Chrome Domes have the plates canted at an angle like these?




Many do, and I believe all of the GTA & GTB chrome domes have those type of angled plates.

However I have several earlier GT chrome domes tubes that have the T-plates like the VT-231 & bad boys. The A & W are chrome domes and have T-plates as well.

Then there is the chrome dome plus mouse ears which is also T-plates. It was so unusual I just had to buy it!


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> I have said this before, but if any of you want to source a real Sylvania triple mica "Bad Boy" just let me know (~42 EUR + shipping).
> I have way to many laying around and I only need to keep 2. I can send pictures.


 
 Well everything I have read about those 'Bad Boys' is very good and for me they are the best all round 6SN7 tube I've personally heard.


----------



## Makiah S

tunkejazz said:


> I have said this before, but if any of you want to source a real Sylvania triple mica "Bad Boy" just let me know (~42 EUR + shipping).
> I have way to many laying around and I only need to keep 2. I can send pictures.


 
 I might try one out, depending on how I do or don't like the ECC 31 I got


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> I might try one out, depending on how I do or don't like the ECC 31 I got


 
 Looking forward, very much, to your evaluation of the Mullard ECC31


----------



## joespride

HOLY CRAP !!!!!!!!!  I have just discovered how good the EMBER can sound, burning a pair of National Union (76) 6L5G on the 6j5 adapter I am taken back to my experiences with SET amps on high end Horn speakers
  
 Alison Krauss could literally bring a tear to the eye OUTSTANDING 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
  
 Connieflyer I have to say THANK You for opening my eyes / ears
  
 If you are on the fence about the 6j5 adapter I give it my highest recommendation,  I honestly can not see anyone being sorry with the Sound Quality improvement using the 6j5 adapter


----------



## DecentLevi

@joespride that's awesome! Can you please share a photo of those tubes in the Ember, if possible? Also would you mind to also explain the sound, such as soundstage, hi/mid/lows, detail, etc.? And any comparisons to other fav. tubes is nice too.
  
 Oh also @Mshenay we would also enjoy photos once you get to try your ECC31


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> @joespride that's awesome! Can you please share a photo of those tubes in the Ember, if possible? Also would you mind to also explain the sound, such as soundstage, hi/mid/lows, detail, etc.? And any comparisons to other fav. tubes is nice too.
> 
> Oh also @Mshenay we would also enjoy photos once you get to try your ECC31


 
 Oh my friend I can assure you I'll be posting pics when I get my ECC 31  I am EXCITED for it, doing some reaserch though, there may be an issue with Gain on the ECC 31 compared to the 6SN7, I know the 6SL7 apparently runs at a much higher gain than the SN7 variant, making the two technically compatible but really not so 
  
 either way, I'm looking forward to hearing if there's an improvement


----------



## connieflyer

joespride said:


> HOLY CRAP !!!!!!!!!  I have just discovered how good the EMBER can sound, burning a pair of National Union (76) 6L5G on the 6j5 adapter I am taken back to my experiences with SET amps on high end Horn speakers
> 
> Alison Krauss could literally bring a tear to the eye OUTSTANDING
> 
> ...


 
  


joespride said:


> HOLY CRAP !!!!!!!!!  I have just discovered how good the EMBER can sound, burning a pair of National Union (76) 6L5G on the 6j5 adapter I am taken back to my experiences with SET amps on high end Horn speakers
> 
> Alison Krauss could literally bring a tear to the eye OUTSTANDING
> 
> ...


 

 Glad you like them, you are just beginning a very satisfying journey.  I know it is hard with a lot of tubes, but take your time and enjoy them, they all bring something different to the table. It is amazing the sound that you can get from the ember with the dual triodes. So many tubes, so little time.  And you are right on the money with Alison, on some of her recordings, I have to look around and see if she is not in the room, with me.  Boy, would that bring on a coranary attack!  Nice way to go!


----------



## DecentLevi

I think you meant to say dual single triodes


----------



## connieflyer

Dual "single" triodes, dual triodes, with the adapter it goes without saying.  If you don't know by now what an adapter is for point taken


----------



## Makiah S

connieflyer said:


> Glad you like them, you are just beginning a very satisfying journey.  I know it is hard with a lot of tubes, but take your time and enjoy them, they all bring something different to the table. It is amazing the sound that you can get from the ember with the dual triodes. So many tubes, so little time.  And you are right on the money with Alison, on some of her recordings, I have to look around and see if she is not in the room, with me.  Boy, would that bring on a coranary attack!  Nice way to go!


 
 ugh one of these days... I'ma go broke
  
 good news though my VokShod came in... bad news is I don't really feel like opening the package tbh... I'd kinda rather get the $45 I paid for it back q.q
  
 but for the sake of "reviewing" I'll go for it
  
 who knows maybe it'll suprise me 
  
 and it in fact did surprise! Right off the bat in Miles Davis So What... I'm getting the sense that the bass has better grip with the VokShod [switching over to metallica, this song starts off pretty hard core] 
  
 Hmmmm, so yea the Vokshod has more clarity than the GE 6sn7 GTA, everything sounds... faster a little more DYNAMIC, so that said, I started to compare it right to the NFB10ES2, and I found that the bass is better on the Starlight with the VokShod! There's a bit more texture to the double bass due to touch of umph the tube adds! [Nice surprise there!!!!] 
  
 How ever the gain on each of the tubes is different... the Vokshod at the same levels is louder, yes I did perform SPL meter match throughout my testing, and what I found was overall the GE 6SN7 GTA was a little softer, mids and bass a little creamier than the VokShod, in terms of sound stage the VokShod was also better than the ECC81 Telefunken 
  
 The fully balanced Amp does reach a little farther back in the sound stage 
  
 still looks like this $45 was money well spent!! 
  
 better news, is I grabbed @Bill-Ps ES10 a few days back, and he's informed me that he tuned it using a tube so  looks like I'll have another wood back to pair with my Starlight ^^


----------



## Makiah S

So now the question to ask, is what Octals sound like the Vokshod Rocket, 1975  Single Wire Grey Sheild?


----------



## Tunkejazz

The Telefunken e88cc reminds me of the 6n23p SW, but a bit smoother. My problem with these tubes is that they are getting very expensive, but I quite like how they sound.


----------



## joespride

decentlevi said:


> @joespride that's awesome! Can you please share a photo of those tubes in the Ember, if possible? Also would you mind to also explain the sound, such as soundstage, hi/mid/lows, detail, etc.? And any comparisons to other fav. tubes is nice too.
> 
> Oh also @Mshenay we would also enjoy photos once you get to try your ECC31


 
 When I get around to figuring out the photo feature here I will take the time to add a few pics
  
 Sound wise I  am cycling through several tubes right now I bought a big stash from Connieflyer along with 2 adapters .
  
 Initial impressions are the 6j5 reminds me of 45 & 2A3 type SET amps, They have superb mids very musical with some added warmth,  The 6l5 is is more along the lines of the 300b warmer with perhaps a bit of recessed mids but just so lush its like a warm blanket in winter
  
 The 7193 is more refined more technically correct also seems to have more gain, they are a definite step up from all the single tubes I have heard to date, I find myself drawn more to the 6j5 simply because I LOVE set amps and the warmth they offer
  
 I wont comment on sound stage because for me headphones are lacking in this department no matter which cans, including the current king of imaging the hd800 (I recently sold)
  
 I have a lot more listening to do as is always the case above are my impressions and YMMV


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> When I get around to figuring out the photo feature here I will take the time to add a few pics
> 
> Sound wise I  am cycling through several tubes right now I bought a big stash from Connieflyer along with 2 adapters .
> 
> ...


 

 I don't know the 'sound' of 2A3 / 45 SET amps nor how they differ from 300B..........So do the 7193's have an advantage over the 6J5G's and 6L5 on the highs or bass depth? 
  
 Are the 6J5G's just something special (musical) without the absolute best bass or treble?
  
 I have 6J5's and adapter in route!


----------



## Tunkejazz

nwavesailor said:


> I don't know the 'sound' of 2A3 / 45 SET amps nor how they differ from 300B..........So do the 7193's have an advantage over the 6J5G's and 6L5 on the highs or bass depth?


 
 To my ears and with my headphones the 7193 (using Ken-Rads) do not extend as deep in the bass and it is certainly warmer than the Visseaux in the higher end of the frequency spectrum. Also, I felt that (comparatively) some female voices can sound congested ("nasal"?) with the 7193, which is not the case with the 6J5. I actually prefer the Bad Boys overall to the 7193, although the latter are ahead in many aspects. I think @HOWIE13 wrote a small comparison at some point at the diyah forum and maybe also here. I could find two links with some comments:
  
 http://diyah.boards.net/post/15866/thread
 http://diyah.boards.net/post/16756/thread
  
 I think the 7193 is a very good option and relatively cheap. Soundstage is great compared to most 6SN7 alternatives.


----------



## joespride

I also find the 7193  microphonic,


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> I also find the 7193  microphonic,


 

 Sadly, that's one of the hazards of vacuum tubes in audio.
 I have some tubes that sound (to my ears) very nice that are somewhat microphonic. As long as they aren't noisy, I use them. We all think we have some stone quiet tubes, but all are microphonic to some degree..........it's the degree that matters!


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> To my ears and with my headphones the 7193 (using Ken-Rads) do not extend as deep in the bass and it is certainly warmer than the Visseaux in the higher end of the frequency spectrum. Also, I felt that (comparatively) some female voices can sound congested ("nasal"?) with the 7193, which is not the case with the 6J5. I actually prefer the Bad Boys overall to the 7193, although the latter are ahead in many aspects. I think @HOWIE13 wrote a small comparison at some point at the diyah forum and maybe also here. I could find two links with some comments:
> 
> http://diyah.boards.net/post/15866/thread
> http://diyah.boards.net/post/16756/thread
> ...


 
 Thanks for reminding me of those threads!
 Since then, further listening hasn't altered my views about these tubes. 6J5, 6L5's and 'Bad Boys' are the tubes I find I'm using most. I need all three types to cover all the music I like, at present.
 Like you, I also find the 7193's can sound a bit congested and muddled in the lower mids/bass compared to 6J5's. It depends on the music, sometimes it's not a problem. 
 I also don't mind about microphony as long as it's quiet when I'm actually listening.


----------



## sneaky415

nwavesailor said:


> I don't know the 'sound' of 2A3 / 45 SET amps nor how they differ from 300B..........So do the 7193's have an advantage over the 6J5G's and 6L5 on the highs or bass depth?
> 
> Are the 6J5G's just something special (musical) without the absolute best bass or treble?
> 
> I have 6J5's and adapter in route!


 
  
 The 7193's are more bass oriented than the 6j5g's but they don't neccesarily go deeper. The 7193's makes my yamaha mt220's sound wonderful. It's a can that I found a bit on the bright side.
  
 On the other hand I also have the fostex th-x00, with the 7193's they sound like crap basically. Bass is really boomy and just takes over the whole presentation. With some good 6j5g's the th-x00 sounds magical.
  
 Which tube you will prefer depends a lot on your gear I think.


----------



## Makiah S

sneaky415 said:


> The 7193's are more bass oriented than the 6j5g's but they don't neccesarily go deeper. The 7193's makes my yamaha mt220's sound wonderful. It's a can that I found a bit on the bright side.
> 
> On the other hand I also have the fostex th-x00, with the 7193's they sound like crap basically. Bass is really boomy and just takes over the whole presentation. With some good 6j5g's the th-x00 sounds magical.
> 
> Which tube you will prefer depends a lot on your gear I think.


 
 I agree, with the strong low end presentation on the TH X00 I strongly prefer Solid State, my LA D5k an apparently my ES10BP are both have better grip and faster decay in teh bass and mids, with a touch more energy in the highs, making tubes the better choice to my ears


----------



## DecentLevi

So I've taken the Ember 2 with me to exhibit at the last 3 Head-Fi meets I've gone to, including at the last two local meets that I organized. The Ember has gotten a fair amount of positive words before with Franken Ember and 6SN7 tubes, and I still heard nothing negative. Then yesterday was the first 'public appearance' of the Visseux 6J5 setup. I don't use the amp section anymore, but as a tube-buffer to my Liquid Carbon (balanced headphone out) -or- to my Koss electrostatic amp. Several members asked what makes my rig sound so good, and I told them it's because of the Visseaux 6J5 tubes - the best I've tried after at least two dozen varying models & classes of tubes. One such member was a senior fellow but first time to a meet, and wanted to compare the electrostat amp with and without the Ember as a tube-buffer. After comparing twice, he noted that this Ember setup added a more full bodied sound. And boy was he right - it adds a bit more of a 3rd dimension, also impact and weight.
  


  
 So far the best word I've come up with to describe the Visseaux+Ember is sublime. They're the jack of all trades and do everything right, from ambient to jazz, classical, pop, electronic, rock and even movies, etc. The few times I've been tempted to roll another tube for them, the Visseaux were back in within a matter of hours. That would be interesting however, to see *the progression of the Zenith 6J5'*s and even how they compare, as the Visseaux are getting scarce.
  
 However, being somebody who has been fortunate enough to listen to virtually all of the mid-fi to summit-fi systems from Stax to Hifiman, Sennheiser, KGSS, Sony MDR-R10, Eddie Current, etc. - I have become more of an objectivist with sound systems *so will stop short of saying that the Visseaux is the 'holy grail' or bigger words like magnificent* - save for even better gear out there. And to be fair, the Ember only took up about 2-5% of the total conversation at most there, with all the other TOTL gear present at these meets. Suffice it to say though, this setup is a standout for it's price point.
  
 Additionally, it seems there is still potential for another of the recently discussed tubes could unseat the Visseaux, especially the *6N7 *variants, *6A6 *_(dual triode - single tube)_, or even *other types of these 6J5* _(single triode - dual tube)_.
  
 And for anyone who's interested, full event converage can be found here.
  
 PS- for anybody looking to upgrade their amp, I would recommend to keep your Ember and best tubes, so that you may be able to use it to fine-tune the sound of your new amp as a tube buffer.


----------



## connieflyer

Nice write up on the meet.  Sounds like a lot of fun. One thing you might want to do is get yourself the machined top and bottom plate for your Ember at the shows.  It would look much nicer, I did a while back and while I like the look of the plexy, the black metal withe the camphored edge really set it off.  Bidding on a quad of Sylvania JAN-CHS-6L6GA military grade smoked glass tubes, looks like I may have this one.  Have to find out if there is anything I like better than the Viss's before I let spare set go.


----------



## DecentLevi

I'm personally not sure about the adapters / compatibility for a 6L6, but sounds interesting


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> I'm personally not sure about the adapters / compatibility for a 6L6, but sounds interesting


 
 yea I wish my Starlight had Line outs, but alas it doesn't :/ non the less as I move up to the Ember I'll be sure to grab a set of the Visseauxs


----------



## connieflyer

Lost bid anyways


----------



## TraceStar

Update.
  
 Came back from trip yesterday, listened to the Viss for a whole day and swiched back to the Zenith. Listened to some acoustic songs this time. Last time I tried to find a difference was on a mix of heavier songs, rock, heavy metal, fast beats and lotsa drums. Switched tubes after each complete run of my playlist. After some time I actually forgot which tube I was using so I had to look behind my monitor to confirm. So as far as my hearing goes, these 2 babies are essentially the same or near enough to me that I can't notice the difference in the time it takes me to switch the tubes and letting them warm up to playing levels... The best test is always a direct A/B blind testing but I don't have a spare ember to actually do it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 These 6J5s reaaaaallly make acoustics sound lovely. U can hear each pluck and sigh linger.


----------



## joespride

just a heads up I have posted all my spare tubes and the 7193 adapter in the classified section for sale if anyone is interested
  
 I will be sticking with the 6j5 set up and directing my attention at tubes for that
  
 A link to make it easier for anyone interested
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/796931/garage-project-ember-many-tubes-7193-adapter-acrylic-cover-base


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> So far the best word I've come up with to describe the Visseaux+Ember is sublime. They're the jack of all trades and do everything right, from ambient to jazz, classical, pop, electronic, rock and even movies, etc. The few times I've been tempted to roll another tube for them, the Visseaux were back in within a matter of hours. That would be interesting however, to see *the progression of the Zenith 6J5'*s and even how they compare, as the Visseaux are getting scarce.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a pair of the Visseaux in route. I was watching a 'backup pair' on E-Bay for about $100 shipped and they sold last night. I think your post may have had someone on the fence decide to snag them! There are lots of other 6J5G / L63 options both from US makers as well as the UK made versions. It will be interesting to see how the other tubes compare to the French Visseaux. Perhaps they ALL are good!?!?


----------



## DecentLevi

Outstanding @TraceStar!!! If there was some kind of Head-Fi award, you would deserve it! So there you have it folks - for anybody who's unable to source a Visseaux 6J5, it appears *the Zenith 6J5 is a totally viable alternative* on this dual setup!


----------



## DecentLevi

@nwavesailor it appears we already have the solution. It seems the Zenith 6J5's are around the same price but slightly easier to source than Visseaux


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> @nwavesailor it appears we already have the solution. It seems the Zenith 6J5's are around the same price but slightly easier to source than Visseaux


 

 Cool............I may be looking at Zenith's as well as some UK offerings. I've been a Brimar fan and their 6J5 version has 'round' (oval) plates!!! The French Visseaux and I think (?) the early US Zenith 6J5 may have round plates.
  
 Gotta get the tubes and adapter first..........tick-tock, tick-tock waiting for both. At least the adapters are in the San Francisco now so it's all USPS from there>


----------



## dpump

Not sure you can just say buy the Zenith 6J5 without question as Zenith never manufactured their own tubes. They purchased tubes from other manufacturers and put the Zenith name on them, so there may be different versions of Zenith 6J5's available. Maybe TraceStar can post a picture of his Zenith 6J5's.


----------



## DecentLevi

IMO, as long as it says Zenith, then it's probably the same type he got, regardless of who actually manufactured it. Here's the photo from his profile


----------



## joespride

Pic of my ember with the National Union 6L5G's


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> IMO, as long as it says Zenith, then it's probably the same type he got, regardless of who actually manufactured it. Here's the photo from his profile
> 
> 
> Well it's still early in the "this vintage / this brand = this 6J5 game". Perhaps the Zenith branded 6J5G that Tracestar has are  of the identical production facility, vintage and internals as the Visseaux. I think (?) Tracestar may own both. Perhaps he can look into each tube, note construction similaities or differences, and determine that it is the identical tube or not.
> ...


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Do you guys know if a pair of 12J5G should work in the Ember with the 6J5 adapter? I guess the question is whether the voltage is the only difference?


----------



## nykobing

bobmonkhouse said:


> Do you guys know if a pair of 12J5G should work in the Ember with the 6J5 adapter? I guess the question is whether the voltage is the only difference?


 
  
 I wouldn't think so, because a 12sn7 doesn't work and they would technically be 1/2 of one each?
  
  
 "You cannot use a 12sn7 tube with any of our designs except the new solstice. The reason is that 12.6v 9p dual triodes have a center tap so technically they work off of 6.3V. So all of our current heater power supplies are actually 6.3V. This way, tubes are not accidentally damaged. If the wrong setting is selected, only one side of the tube will glow or work. With 8p like the sn7 series. There is no center tap so they either require straight 6.3 or 12.6v."


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Thanks for the info, much appreciated!


----------



## connieflyer

decentlevi said:


> IMO, as long as it says Zenith, then it's probably the same type he got, regardless of who actually manufactured it. Here's the photo from his profile


 

 Well I looked my 4 Visseaux tubes over pretty carefully, and there are differences.  The flashing on the bottom (of the tube) does not appear on any of mine, the solid mica across the top of the suppport rods, filament does not appear on mine........


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I'm not here to promote any tubes, I'm just recommending these because they sounded the best to myself and others who tried them. I just want to point out though, that even if there are differences between the Visseaux and Zenith 6J5 physically or with brand names, somebody did appear to say they sound equal - and that should probably be what matters most.


----------



## connieflyer

He says they sound equal to him, doesn't mean much when you consider the gear he is using and his sound aquity.  Show that they are equal or it just one persons "opinion" nothing more nothing less.  Structure makes a difference as does material used.  How many companies order from other companies and place a large order to get better pricing, just tell the manufacturer to use a little less "finesee


----------



## nwavesailor

connieflyer said:


> Well I looked my 4 Visseaux tubes over pretty carefully, and there are differences.  The flashing on the bottom (of the tube) does not appear on any of mine, the solid mica across the top of the suppport rods, filament does not appear on mine........
> 
> Did your 4, 6J5 come as 2 pairs and perhaps the pairs were the same construction or are all 4 somewhat different?


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> Well I'm not here to promote any tubes, I'm just recommending these because they sounded the best to myself and others who tried them. I just want to point out though, that even if there are differences between the Visseaux and Zenith 6J5 physically or with brand names, somebody did appear to say they sound equal - and that should probably be what matters most.


 

 If TraceStar has both, he would be the one to do the comparison of his Zenith version 6J5 to his Visseaux version 6J5.
  
 As far as how they sound, there are several posts on audio sites where similarities are found across various 6J5's so TraceStar may be hearing what others have posted. If this is true, all the better. We may not need to be chasing down the best of the best in this tube variant.
  
 I, for one, appreciate that Levi has brought the 6J5 to our attention. What we do with this info is up to us. I decided to take a chance and see if I hear what others were reporting.............if not, I have plenty of other tubes that are working for me.
  
 Thanks, Levi!


----------



## Makiah S

I'ma bit one Joes Dual KenRad 7193s, while I'd imagine the 6J5s are indeed better, for my let's hope the Dual 7193's are a step up from my Single VokShod 9pin
  
 and I'd like to see how they compare to the Single ECC31


----------



## TraceStar

connieflyer said:


> He says they sound equal to him, doesn't mean much when you consider the gear he is using and his sound aquity.  Show that they are equal or it just one persons "opinion" nothing more nothing less.  Structure makes a difference as does material used.  How many companies order from other companies and place a large order to get better pricing, just tell the manufacturer to use a little less "finesee


 
  
 Yea, I actually said it sounds equal to me. Doesn't mean that there's no difference for everyone nor does it mean there's really no difference at all. Just on my setup and my hearing it doesn't make any noticeable difference. BTW the similarity between these 2 are the round plates. Other than that, they actually look pretty different. In fact, the Visseaux are actually a bit smaller


----------



## TraceStar

mshenay said:


> I'ma bit one Joes Dual KenRad 7193s, while I'd imagine the 6J5s are indeed better, for my let's hope the Dual 7193's are a step up from my Single VokShod 9pin
> 
> and I'd like to see how they compare to the Single ECC31


 
  
 Would love to hear your experience with the ECC31. If it's better than the 7193s, then we have more and more excellent options.


----------



## joespride

Good Morning all,  I read a bit about some having to ground the chassis due to hum,  can someone expand upon that please ?  IE... where would you ground to and from. It seems the 6l5, and 6c5 both have a bit of hum
  
 The 6j5 on the other hand is very quiet
  
 Appreciate it


----------



## Demo3

Do any of you guys have any experience pairing the Ember with its different forms with the Ether C?


----------



## DecentLevi

joespride said:


> Good Morning all,  I read a bit about some having to ground the chassis due to hum,  can someone expand upon that please ?  IE... where would you ground to and from. It seems the 6l5, and 6c5 both have a bit of hum
> 
> The 6j5 on the other hand is very quiet
> 
> Appreciate it


 

Here and here are two helpful posts on reducing the buzz/hum


----------



## joespride

Thanks for the suggestions levi


----------



## DecentLevi

So I just 'finished' trying my new FDD20 setup in the Ember. This requires a special adapter and a 12-volt power supply (min. 1 amp) which is used in place of the 6 volt heat current from the Ember.
  
 After careful comparison using this setup on the Ember as a preamp, here's my impressions versus directly without the Ember: The sound of this tube is more impactful, nicer and bigger soundstage, and beautiful lush mids. However, here's the reason I said I _finished _with this setup: It's sound is leaning too far bright: while the treble is clear as a whistle, it's too up-front and likewise the bass has been pushed back by at least 2-3 decibels, making it only good to clean up very dark recordings. Also on my system I heard a fairly loud buzz, and heard distortion with the volume past 1:00 - as a preamp anyway. 
  
 Listening to this tube with headphones directly actually seemed to sound a little better, giving a very clear and punchy sound with a nice stage, however it's still a bit of a treble head. Then I compared it to the Visseaux, and bingo! The bass is back, along with a fluidic refined sound! Overall I would not recommend this tube for the Ember. I'm just keeping it because it's been said to pair well with another amp.


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> So I just 'finished' trying my new FDD20 setup in the Ember. This requires a special adapter and a 12-volt power supply (min. 1 amp) which is used in place of the 6 volt heat current from the Ember.
> 
> After careful comparison using this setup on the Ember as a preamp, here's my impressions versus directly without the Ember: The sound of this tube is more impactful, nicer and bigger soundstage, and beautiful lush mids. However, here's the reason I said I _finished _with this setup: It's sound is leaning too far bright: while the treble is clear as a whistle, it's too up-front and likewise the bass has been pushed back by at least 2-3 decibels, making it only good to clean up very dark recordings. Also on my system I heard a fairly loud buzz, and heard distortion with the volume past 1:00 - as a preamp anyway.
> 
> Listening to this tube with headphones directly actually seemed to sound a little better, giving a very clear and punchy sound with a nice stage, however it's still a bit of a treble head. Then I compared it to the Visseaux, and bingo! The bass is back, along with a fluidic refined sound! Overall I would not recommend this tube for the Ember. I'm just keeping it because it's been said to pair well with another amp.


 
 Hmmm are we talking like the GE 6SN7 GTB treble head? That tubs was... well ugh it was bad... just too hot up top! Still I'm hoping my Giant Mullard will have a nice sound stage as you've described but with a cleaner sound maybe, not so much up top


----------



## DecentLevi

It was a tad brighter than the GE GTB and about as bright as my Zenith 6SN7 but with less bass than both. Good luck


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> It was a tad brighter than the GE GTB and about as bright as my Zenith 6SN7 but with less bass than both. Good luck


 
 ewww ugh, that sounds like fun
  
 what I've found is a lack of power usually winds up with a "thin" sound, nice sound stage and little bass so who knows, Guess I'll find out


----------



## CZ4A

decentlevi said:


> So I just 'finished' trying my new FDD20 setup in the Ember. This requires a special adapter and a 12-volt power supply (min. 1 amp) which is used in place of the 6 volt heat current from the Ember.
> 
> After careful comparison using this setup on the Ember as a preamp, here's my impressions versus directly without the Ember: The sound of this tube is more impactful, nicer and bigger soundstage, and beautiful lush mids. However, here's the reason I said I _finished _with this setup: It's sound is leaning too far bright: while the treble is clear as a whistle, it's too up-front and likewise the bass has been pushed back by at least 2-3 decibels, making it only good to clean up very dark recordings. Also on my system I heard a fairly loud buzz, and heard distortion with the volume past 1:00 - as a preamp anyway.
> 
> Listening to this tube with headphones directly actually seemed to sound a little better, giving a very clear and punchy sound with a nice stage, however it's still a bit of a treble head. Then I compared it to the Visseaux, and bingo! The bass is back, along with a fluidic refined sound! Overall I would not recommend this tube for the Ember. I'm just keeping it because it's been said to pair well with another amp.


 
 Interesting take. Sounds like the FDD20 isn't really worth the effort for the Ember. Do you have another amp to use it in?
  
 I wonder how it would work in my new APPJ 1502A. It natively puts out 12V to the preamp tube, so the external power supply wouldn't be necessary.
  
 I'm still quite happy with my Mini-Franken-rise, especially with the Ken-Rad 6C8G. For now though my larger tubes are staying at home. I have the Sunrise at work with one of my favorite small tubes (Amperex Orange Globe 6DJ8) while I experiment with the APPJ. Once I discover a setup I like with the APPJ I will use it as my work amp and bring the Sunrise back home.


----------



## connieflyer

DecentLevi did you get your Elise yet,still lookimg into that and the elkit. Looks good, tried the Sonarworks vst with JRiver and works well..


----------



## DecentLevi

CZ4A:
 If your amp supports 12v tubes then the FDD20 should work with it - just as long as it supports the 6SN7 schematic and you have the 6SN7 to FDD20 adapter. I caution you though, that tube is a very nearly extinct species as of now.
  
ConnieFlyer:
 I don't have the Elise yet, but boy I'll tell ya - reading some 500 pages of reviews of it from random users all around the world - all of which who unanimously thrilled speechless with it's performance - and seeing the genuine love for that amp - that warrants an exception for my 'rule' to try something before buying. I'm so confident with the performance of that amp that so far I've amassed 10 tubes and 6 adapters for it, and  made a down payment for the Elise while I wait the 2 months for it to be built. And if you're interested in the EL3N tubes which are supposed to be heavenly good for it, you may be out of luck. These are also dangerously close to extinction, hence why I got mine while I could. Fortunately others like the 6BL7 and EL11 tubes may turn out to be comparable to them. 
  
For anybody else:
 After tubes like those are not available on places like eBay anymore, I'd say about the only way to attain them would be either through posting on forums if anyone would sell theirs, or you can also sign up for realtime notifications by email when the item you're seeking comes up for sale from various sources, on the used Hi-Fi search engine HiFiShark.com


----------



## CZ4A

decentlevi said:


> If your amp supports 12v tubes then the FDD20 should work with it - just as long as it supports the 6SN7 schematic and you have the 6SN7 to FDD20 adapter. I caution you though, that tube is a very nearly extinct species as of now.


 
 The 1502A uses a 12A#7 for the pre-amp stage but a FDD20 to 12AU7 adapter is available: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Philips-FDD20-TO-12AU7-ECC82-Tube-converter-adapter-12-6V-/191678650030
  
 I have noticed the FDD20's scarcity. I wouldn't quite put it at unobtainium level yet (there's three or four active listings on eBay right now), but it is close. I don't think I will lose much sleep never trying one, but part of the reason I am interested is that there isn't much in the way of coke bottle 12V twin-triode tubes and there's no space for a dual single-triode setup on the new amp. There's no "12C8G" for example (a 12C8 exists but it's a metal double diode-pentode). I also need to get a few more tube combos tried out - right now my 1502A leans bright with a Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7. The brightness is nice where it is. Any higher and it will go from sparkly to stabbity. Your impressions of the FDD20 make me think it might lean that way.
  
 All this talk of rare tubes reminds me, I need to get to work offloading my hoard of unwanted tubes now that I've started to zero in on the types I like in the Sunrise. I want another DAC, and maybe a new set of cans, and I have a couple of rare tubes I'm tracking for both the Sunrise and APPJ, and...


----------



## Makiah S

cz4a said:


> The 1502A uses a 12A#7 for the pre-amp stage but a FDD20 to 12AU7 adapter is available: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Philips-FDD20-TO-12AU7-ECC82-Tube-converter-adapter-12-6V-/191678650030
> 
> I have noticed the FDD20's scarcity. I wouldn't quite put it at unobtainium level yet (there's three or four active listings on eBay right now), but it is close. I don't think I will lose much sleep never trying one, but part of the reason I am interested is that there isn't much in the way of coke bottle 12V twin-triode tubes and there's no space for a dual single-triode setup on the new amp. There's no "12C8G" for example (a 12C8 exists but it's a metal double diode-pentode). I also need to get a few more tube combos tried out - right now my 1502A leans bright with a Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7. The brightness is nice where it is. Any higher and it will go from sparkly to stabbity. Your impressions of the FDD20 make me think it might lean that way.
> 
> All this talk of rare tubes reminds me,* I need to get to work offloading my hoard of unwanted tubes now that I've started to zero in on the types I like in the Sunrise*. I want another DAC, and maybe a new set of cans, and I have a couple of rare tubes I'm tracking for both the Sunrise and APPJ, and...


 
 ugh don't we all, I've already got a growing collection my self 
  
 I'll also let you guys know how the ECC 31 goes as well in terms of sound, it's a nice coke bottle Mullard, here's to hoping she sounds really fab!


----------



## joespride

Question for the Visseaux 6j5 owners.  I received a pair today and there are differences 1 of the 2 is a bit larger in height and fatter glass.  and the getters are different styles as well
  
 One is the foil d, and the taller fatter one has an open D type,  what I am looking to find out here is if anyone has both as well


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Question for the Visseaux 6j5 owners.  I received a pair today and there are differences 1 of the 2 is a bit larger in height and fatter glass.  and the getters are different styles as well
> 
> One is the foil d, and the taller fatter one has an open D type,  what I am looking to find out here is if anyone has both as well


 

 My pair are "out for delivery" so I'll know what they look like in a few hours.
  
 Edit: My pair of Visseaux 6J5G just arrived and are identical construction and size as well as nicely matched tube 1 to tube 2..............now if only the adapter would get here!


----------



## DecentLevi

I've read multiple reports from people with other tubes of different size, but still had good results. Good luck with your new setup


----------



## JazzVinyl

decentlevi said:


> So I just 'finished' trying my new FDD20 setup in the Ember. This requires a special adapter and a 12-volt power supply (min. 1 amp) which is used in place of the 6 volt heat current from the Ember.
> 
> After careful comparison using this setup on the Ember as a preamp, here's my impressions versus directly without the Ember: The sound of this tube is more impactful, nicer and bigger soundstage, and beautiful lush mids. However, here's the reason I said I _finished_ with this setup: It's sound is leaning too far bright: while the treble is clear as a whistle, it's too up-front and likewise the bass has been pushed back by at least 2-3 decibels, making it only good to clean up very dark recordings. Also on my system I heard a fairly loud buzz, and heard distortion with the volume past 1:00 - as a preamp anyway.
> 
> Listening to this tube with headphones directly actually seemed to sound a little better, giving a very clear and punchy sound with a nice stage, however it's still a bit of a treble head. Then I compared it to the Visseaux, and bingo! The bass is back, along with a fluidic refined sound! Overall I would not recommend this tube for the Ember. I'm just keeping it because it's been said to pair well with another amp.




If this is an "RVC" version of the FDD20, the bass comes on much much stronger after at least 80 hours. It continues to deepen and firm up until about 250 hours. I know that is a LONG time to hang in there, but you may be surprised and richly rewarded by doing so.


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks JV, I was seriously considering a long burn in for the FDD20, but after careful listening / experimenting with input / output levels, comparing both tubes, etc. I came to the conclusion that the FDD20 is totally incompatible with the Ember, because the sound seems to break up at at closer to 11:00 on the dial, plus the buzz is unbearable. It's a shame, too because on this critical listen I had realised the dynamics win over the Visseaux and the mids are perhaps a tad sweeter / lusher.
  
 CZ4A, I definitely recommend you try this tube in your amp however, as this tube been said to be a solid performer in other amps. 
  
 However some of the buzz could be attributed to the non-grounded external power supply I used for it:

  
 Perhaps a 3-pronged grounded PS would quell the buzz a bit?


----------



## JazzVinyl

If it has a hum, you need to ground the power supply to the mains ground. A wire from the outlet screw (that holds the cover on) to the negative side of the power supply should work...what is the native tube for the Ember?


----------



## DecentLevi

I'm not quite sure what you meant by the above - a wire from the outlet screw to the negative wire of the power supply?
  
 The ECC82 is usually the native tube for the Ember


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> I've read multiple reports from people with other tubes of different size, but still had good results. Good luck with your new setup


 

 I, for one, prefer not to buy any mis-matched pairs. Yes, they _could_ sound identical, but in my head I'd be second guessing if they are indeed the same..............but that's me!
  
 There are variances in the ST (G) glass envelopes, and this is the nature of glass from one tube to the next. I can live with that. But different internals of 2 of the same tube, not so much.


----------



## jaywillin

thanks to @joespride ( bought the tubes he had for sale) i was able to get a good start on tubes for rolling in my sunrise iii
 every time i've had a tube amp, i would amass quite a few tubes, but when i sold my last tube amp, all the tubes i had went with it.
 i haven't gone through all the tubes i have at the moment, but the stand outs of what i've tried so far are the '68 amperex branded telefunken ecc88 (mine)
 the amperex 6dj8 bugle boy (joespride)
 right now i'm listening to a 12au7 rca clear top, i really like it's top end !
  
 no 6sn7 adapter right now, i'll get one ordered this weekend, then i can really get rolling
 the wife isn't going to like seeing lots of tubes arriving again


----------



## JazzVinyl

decentlevi said:


> I'm not quite sure what you meant by the above - a wire from the outlet screw to the negative wire of the power supply?
> 
> The ECC82 is usually the native tube for the Ember




Your wall outlet has a plastic cover. The metal screw that holds the cover on the outlet is almost always grounded. So a thin wire from this screw to the negative side of the 12 volts your feeding the FDD20 will eradicate the hum.


----------



## joespride

jaywillin said:


> thanks to @joespride ( bought the tubes he had for sale) i was able to get a good start on tubes for rolling in my sunrise iii
> every time i've had a tube amp, i would amass quite a few tubes, but when i sold my last tube amp, all the tubes i had went with it.
> i haven't gone through all the tubes i have at the moment, but the stand outs of what i've tried so far are the '68 amperex branded telefunken ecc88 (mine)
> the amperex 6dj8 bugle boy (joespride)
> ...


 
 Happy to help, although I take no responsibility for angered wives (I have one of those myself, and 1 is more than enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## Tunkejazz

Your tubes are cheaper than their bags


----------



## jaywillin

joespride said:


> Happy to help, although I take no responsibility for angered wives (I have one of those myself, and 1 is more than enough
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 oh i promised i wouldn't buy a lot of tubes, i don't think she's going to hold her breath though


----------



## connieflyer

tunkejazz said:


> Your tubes are cheaper than their bags


 

 I would not try to use that argument unless you have a death wish, it is amazing what is in their memory, and can did up every overpriced thing you ever bought.  I of course agree with you!


----------



## connieflyer

Speaking of selling tubes, putting these up for sale,
  
 1 Aperex Bugle Boy 12AX7
 1 Amperex Bugle Boy 12AT7
 1 Telefunken 12AT7                     
 1 CV4024 Mullard Mil 12AT7
 2 Amperex Bugle Boy 12AT7    $70.00 Shipped


----------



## DavidA

tunkejazz said:


> Your tubes are cheaper than their bags


 
 So true, an HD-800 is cheaper than all of my girlfriends handbags, some of the higher priced handbags are more than my used SR-009/SRM-007.
  


connieflyer said:


> I would not try to use that argument unless you have a death wish, it is amazing what is in their memory, and can did up every overpriced thing you ever bought.  I of course agree with you!


 
 Also true, hopefully they are like my girlfriend, I never comment on her spending, she allows me to buy whatever I want.  Maybe a wife would be different but my ex was the same way.


----------



## ericr

davida said:


> So true, an HD-800 is cheaper than all of my girlfriends...




Well, it might be quite the savings if you narrowed it down to one!


----------



## DavidA

ericr said:


> Well, it might be quite the savings if you narrowed it down to one!


 
 Only have one GF but she has 9 handbags that I can see around the bedroom, might be a few more hidden in storage boxes.  I know she has one Chanel bag style in three different colors so that "they match any outfit,"  this bag also happens to cost $4900 now, when she got the first one 10 years ago she paid $1800, the second one was $2800 six years ago, looks like how the pricing on summit-fi headphones have been trending


----------



## joespride

Matched Visseaux in the house, and frankly I can not hear any differences between the 2 pair.  I will pile on here and state that to date the Visseaux are the king paired with Ember


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Matched Visseaux in the house, and frankly I can not hear any differences between the 2 pair.  I will pile on here and state that to date the Visseaux are the king paired with Ember


 

 Joespride is getting me excited!
  
 My Viaaeaux matched pair came Friday and my adapters (for the 6J5G and 6SN7) are 'out for delivery' today!!!!!!!!


----------



## husafreak

Just starting a little tube rolling with my Ember. I have the stock RCA Cleartop 12AU7 and Vintage Russian 6N6P supplied by Garage1217. I also got a GTE JAN 6922 Sylvania. I am hearing slight differences in these tubes but it is difficult to pick a favorite. But I guess I prefer the Russian 6N6P. Phones are HD600's and Fostex TH-X00's. Now I am starting to wade through this thread.
 I ordered a GE Smoked Glass 6DJ8 and Tung-Sol 12AX7 to try.
 I was about to order a Telefunken 12AT7 as well. But then I got to the part of the thread around page 20 where guys are saying the 6SN7 tubes with adapter are in another league... 
  
 If I get one of those 6SN7 tubes and an adapter from Jeremy do I have to cut  a bigger hole in the plexiglass top of my Ember II? I am not crazy about doing that and then not hearing much of a difference.
  
 Cool little amp BTW!


----------



## nwavesailor

husafreak said:


> Just starting a little tube rolling with my Ember. I have the stock RCA Cleartop 12AU7 and Vintage Russian 6N6P supplied by Garage1217. I also got a GTE JAN 6922 Sylvania. I am hearing slight differences in these tubes but it is difficult to pick a favorite. But I guess I prefer the Russian 6N6P. Phones are HD600's and Fostex TH-X00's. Now I am starting to wade through this thread.
> I ordered a GE Smoked Glass 6DJ8 and Tung-Sol 12AX7 to try.
> I was about to order a Telefunken 12AT7 as well. But then I got to the part of the thread around page 20 where guys are saying the 6SN7 tubes with adapter are in another league...
> 
> ...


 

 9 pin Socket saver and THEN add the 6SN7 adapter if you don't want to enlarge the hole...........


----------



## joespride

nwavesailor said:


> 9 pin Socket saver and THEN add the 6SN7 adapter if you don't want to enlarge the hole...........


 
 I thought the Ember 2 was already large enough for the 6sn7 adapter ?  A question Jeremy could definitely answer


husafreak said:


> Just starting a little tube rolling with my Ember. I have the stock RCA Cleartop 12AU7 and Vintage Russian 6N6P supplied by Garage1217. I also got a GTE JAN 6922 Sylvania. I am hearing slight differences in these tubes but it is difficult to pick a favorite. But I guess I prefer the Russian 6N6P. Phones are HD600's and Fostex TH-X00's. Now I am starting to wade through this thread.
> I ordered a GE Smoked Glass 6DJ8 and Tung-Sol 12AX7 to try.
> I was about to order a Telefunken 12AT7 as well. But then I got to the part of the thread around page 20 where guys are saying the 6SN7 tubes with adapter are in another league...
> 
> ...


 
 If it turns out the plexi does indeed require the hole be enlarged I have a spare plexi top I would donate to your cause simply cover shipping


----------



## husafreak

I decided to swap out my 3 tubes again with some nice music and compare to my main speaker rig and using my Fostex TH-X00's. Norah Jones Come Away With Me (LP). So, yeah, the Russian Vintage 6N6P is my favorite (Thanks Jeremy!). It beat the RCA 12AU7 and JAN 6922 in a couple of major area's. First the soundstage is a little wider and taller. Musically the voice and instruments all had greater extension and vibrato. I mean if I really listened for the decay and vibrato it was more liquid and gentle. I also heard what could be described as sibilance but to me it was not unpleasant and in fact gave a more lively quality to the vocals especially. You could hear Norah's voice overpowering the mic. Just that slight bit of distortion. Also near the end of the song a few plucked strings on the guitar ring out, like the worlds smallest and shortest solo, only with the 6N6P did this come across as really musical and obvious. Going back to my main speaker rig was (always is!) fascinating. It's a nice reference, VPI/Krell/Harbeth. For starters the "sibilance" is very much there and is also a very great contribution to the natural sound of this recording. My little guitar part was there. The soundstage was quite different but it shows how these instruments and voices should blend, focus, and evaporate. I like the "loser" tubes too, but they are less revealing, as the real reviewers say, it is the better sin of omission. With rough recordings or complicated music they are quite good.


----------



## husafreak

Thanks, I will ask Jeremy if he thinks it is worth trying those tubes, he certainly steered me right with the 6N6P.


----------



## DecentLevi

I remember distinctly that the Ember 2 has an enlarged hole and have never heard yet about it not being large enough to accomodate any tube, so just 1 adapter for the 6SN7 will work, without a socket saver.
  
 IMO, if you're starting this thread from page one you're doing it wrong. That goes all the way back to our early trial & error days; but in recent several dozen pages we have advanced to the next several levels, that are more relevant
  
 6DJ8 / 12AT7 bested by 6SN7 bested by 7193 bested by 6J5... and now 7N7 / ECC31 and 6A6 are still in beta testing (someone still has yet to test the 6A6)


----------



## nwavesailor (May 15, 2017)

decentlevi said:


> I remember distinctly that the Ember 2 has an enlarged hole and have never heard yet about it not being large enough to accomodate any tube, so just 1 adapter for the 6SN7 will work, without a socket saver.
> 
> IMO, if you're starting this thread from page one you're doing it wrong. That goes all the way back to our early trial & error days; but in recent several dozen pages we have advanced to the next several levels, that are more relevant
> 
> 6DJ8 / 12AT7 bested by 6SN7 bested by 7193 bested by 6J5... and now 7N7 / ECC31 and 6A6 are still in beta testing (someone still has yet to test the 6A6)


 

 DecentLevi / joespride........*THANKS SO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* My adapter arrived and the pair of 6J5G Visseaux tubes are absolutely STUNNING!!!!!!!!!

 Truth be told, I'm using these in an even more humble another amp than the Ember ll.............. the Vali 2!

 I haven't tried my 6SN7 adapter yet, but these 6J5G's have given me goose fricken bumps the music sound so good. I thought the Amperex 7308 and Tun Sol 6F8G's were very good, and they are, but to gain this level of detail AND go lower and higher that those tubes is saying something.

 Knowing the Ember ll is better than the Vali 2, I can't imagine how stunning these tubes would be in that puppy..............guess I'll have to snag one at some point and see for myself!!!

 Love the forum and those that find these tube gems.


----------



## DecentLevi

Excellent, but frankly speaking from recent first-hand experience and from a general consensus, the Vali 2 is regarded as a entry-level sort of low/mid tier amp and I can almost guarantee you will not get any improvement over the Ember 2.... with the Vali 2. But truth be told, the Ember is also in fact a low/mid tier amp as well, and there are others that are enormous leagues better yet.
  
 At least however, the Ember is never obsolete as a pre-amp, which it does an immaculate job with.


----------



## joespride

decentlevi said:


> Excellent, but frankly speaking from recent first-hand experience and from a general consensus, the Vali 2 is regarded as a entry-level sort of low/mid tier amp and I can almost guarantee you will not get any improvement over the Ember 2.... with the Vali 2. But truth be told, the Ember is also in fact a low/mid tier amp as well, and there are others that are enormous leagues better yet.
> 
> At least however, the Ember is never obsolete as a pre-amp, which it does an immaculate job with.


 
 I have had some of those supposed higher end amps that cost 5+ times more than the Ember and I can say without hesitation NONE of them were 5+ times better sounding.  The Ember is IMHO no where near a lo fi amp and certainly would deserve a spot high up in the
 mid-fi tier realm
  
 Amp prowess is certainly subjective to a point, It all depends what you are willing to spend to achieve that last nuance in detail etc...  I can say I am much happier being able to play with the amp and tailor the sound than I was with the 1500.00+ reference level amp I sold before getting the Ember
  
 There is always an issue when ferreting out the best of the best audio,  You will box yourself into an endless progression of critical listening critiquing all elements of the music presentation in an attempt to justify the expense.  I ran that road for a long time building some systems in excess of 50,000.00 and it frankly served 2 purposes, 1st it was a great learning experience but 2nd and more important it caused me to lose site of the real reason I like to listen  "THE MUSIC" there is no joy in constant critical listening
 Moral:  If you are happy with and enjoy your set up, That is all that matters


----------



## BobMonkhouse

So true! I've head a few opportunities to compare a much more expensive setups. While I appreciate the high SQ they offer, my "critical" listening ended up when I bought my Ember 2. Since then, I've been just enjoying my music, been having fun playing with tubes, and I don't fill the need for anything better. I just need a couple of more headphones to match Ember's enjoyment level.
  
 On a side note, the delay in receiving my 6J5 adapter has been working on my nerves, and my frustration is quite significant. The HK Post reported it left Hong Kong on Jan 14, but no sign of it yet. I have on mind to buy a few more tubes to try, but am holding on on purchases until I hear the dual tube setup first.


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> I can almost guarantee you will not get any improvement over the Ember 2.... with the Vali 2.
> 
> _I didn't mean to imply the Vali 2, even with these killer tubes, could better the Ember 2..........quite the contrary._
> 
> _If the 6J5 sounds this good in the lowly $169 Vali 2, they most certainly sound mo betta in the Ember ll_


----------



## nwavesailor

bobmonkhouse said:


> So true! I've head a few opportunities to compare a much more expensive setups. While I appreciate the high SQ they offer, my "critical" listening ended up when I bought my Ember 2. Since then, I've been just enjoying my music, been having fun playing with tubes, and I don't fill the need for anything better. I just need a couple of more headphones to match Ember's enjoyment level.
> 
> On a side note, the delay in receiving my 6J5 adapter has been working on my nerves, and my frustration is quite significant. The HK Post reported it left Hong Kong on Jan 14, but no sign of it yet. I have on mind to buy a few more tubes to try, but am holding on on purchases until I hear the dual tube setup first.


 

 Yikes........... I though my adapter took a while to get here! Mine left HK post Jan 29, arrived in San Francisco Feb 1, then it took a week to travel a short distance to WA state and got here today.
  
 Perhaps it is hung up in Canadian Customs?
  
 When your adapter arrives, I hope you find the 6J5's as jaw dropping as I have!!!


----------



## CZ4A

Maybe the adapter is stuck in China? Chinese New Year is today (err, yesterday), Monday February 8th.


----------



## connieflyer

When I got my adapter, I assumed it would ship from China Eastward to Michigan, surprised when I saw it was in New York before finally ending up here.  It is worth the wait, and if you decide to turn the orientation of the adapter, remember to do so very carefully so as not to pull a wire loose.  I have found the 6j5's and 6L5's to be very easy to listen too.  I went back to the 6sn7's for awhile and wondered why I left them, sounded great. Listened for two days to the KenRad vt231 and Sylvania vt231 and thought I may have missed something in these.  Found an older adapter had a broken wire, repaired it and put in an old pair of 6L5 Sylvania's and was reminded why I stopped listening to them.  Great resolution, wonderful sound, but with the 6L5's the sound stage was so much better, wider better range.  Could not fault these old tubes.  GLad I had misplaced them with the broken adapter.  Finally found something good about getting older and forgetting things.  Problem is another head-fier has both of my Viss's.  May have to go visit him for a listen again.  If you can not afford the Viss's or other top of the line tubes, my advice, my opinion, is try the nos Sylvania 6J5's, 6L5's G or Gt. I have found these are very satisfying.


----------



## DecentLevi

Yup, and don't forget the Zenith 6J5's have been basically confirmed to have performance on par with the Visseuax. And there's still a lot of different 6J5, 7N7 and 6A6 that have yet to be tried


----------



## nwavesailor

connieflyer, I did also snag a 6SN7 adapter when I bought the 6J5G so I'll have a lot more 6SN7 tubes to try: Sylvania, Tung Sol round plates, RCA, Raytheon, Ken Rad.
  
 DecentLevi mentiond 7N7. I have 3-4 of those with an adapter and haven't given them much time.
  
 SO MANY TUBES..........so little time to play with them!


----------



## connieflyer

nwavesailor, I agree so much to listen to and so many options.
  
 DecentLevi, forgot to Zenith's they are supposed to be quite good, and priced to match.  Just for fun, check out the Zenith's and Sylvania's construction, looks familiar.


----------



## nwavesailor

Guys, I KNOW this is an Ember ll forum, but I found about these little gems here, so here is an unnamed 'brand X' amp w/ a Visseaux 6J5G pair!
  

  
 Even my bride (SHE has the golden ears) was both toe tapping AND head bobbing while these puppies were in the amp......................Tasty Tubes!


----------



## DecentLevi

Interesting to see, @nwavesailor. My experience has been that comparisons of other brands are appreciated on forums of other products, just as long as it's done in an objective way. Really it's educational for the reader. So no problem talking about Schiit's gear on here. Does it sound better than the Ember? (also try the high gain switch on the back)
  
 Also ConnieFlyer I'll let you guys know how the Sylvania 6J5's sound in a few weeks


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> Interesting to see, @nwavesailor. My experience has been that comparisons of other brands are appreciated on forums of other products, just as long as it's done in an objective way. Really it's educational for the reader. So no problem talking about Schiit's gear on here. Does it sound better than the Ember? (also try the high gain switch on the back)
> 
> Also ConnieFlyer I'll let you guys know how the Sylvania 6J5's sound in a few weeks


 

 Thanks, Levi.
  
 I wanted to be sure I actually liked, and more importantly used, a small inexpensive tube HP amp before going further (and a few more $) down the Garage 1217 rabbit hole. If I continue to use this little amp, I will likely sell it and snag the Ember ll.................so for now I can't compare the 2.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> I remember distinctly that the Ember 2 has an enlarged hole and have never heard yet about it not being large enough to accomodate any tube, so just 1 adapter for the 6SN7 will work, without a socket saver.
> 
> IMO, if you're starting this thread from page one you're doing it wrong. That goes all the way back to our early trial & error days; but in recent several dozen pages we have advanced to the next several levels, that are more relevant
> 
> 6DJ8 / 12AT7 bested by 6SN7 bested by 7193 bested by 6J5... and now 7N7 / ECC31 and 6A6 are still in beta testing (someone still has yet to test the 6A6)


 
 I'm waiting impatiently for the adapter.


----------



## DecentLevi

The adapter seller is on Chinese NewYear holiday until Feb. 15th US time. Which adapter are you getting set up for?


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> The adapter seller is on Chinese NewYear holiday until Feb. 15th US time. Which adapter are you getting set up for?


 
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201439857648?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT.
  
 I have an email with an estimated delivery date later this month. I think my order  has probably been sent out as it can take up to 5 weeks.


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> Interesting to see, @nwavesailor. My experience has been that comparisons of other brands are appreciated on forums of other products, just as long as it's done in an objective way. Really it's educational for the reader. So no problem talking about Schiit's gear on here. Does it sound better than the Ember? (also try the high gain switch on the back)
> 
> Also ConnieFlyer I'll let you guys know how the Sylvania 6J5's sound in a few weeks


 

 DecentLevi I'll be curious to see how your Sylvania's sound. I snagged these Marconi (Canada production) 6J5G's today.
  

  
  
 These use ladder plates where the Visseaux, Brimar and some other early production European makes (and perhaps some US?) used round (oval) plates. We'll see if the magic is this tube or if vintage / construction have some sounding better than others.


----------



## joespride

Been curious about those Marconi myself,  They are pretty pricey though.


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Been curious about those Marconi myself,  They are pretty pricey though.


 

 This pair was quite reasonable..........$66 shipped and closely matched!
  
 I figured if I didn't snag them I'd be looking back and thinking .............."Why didn't I grab those Marconi's for little $$$ when I saw them listed?"
  
 If the Visseaux are WAY better, I'm sure I could easily resell these w/o any loss.


----------



## joespride

$66 is a good deal on those, I am always seeing them up in the same $$$ as Visseaux,  I was just lucky enough to snag a single visseaux with the D getter so I will have 2 matched pair now with 1 extra that has the dimpled foil getter.  I will likely offer that one up here incase anyone here has the dimpled foil getter pair and would like a back up


----------



## joespride

Anyone heard the Brimar 6J5 ?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/301866629196?_trksid=p2057872.m2748.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
  
 I just snagged this pair.  Its a sickness


----------



## DecentLevi

We would like to hear your results with the Marconi and Brimar tubes - especially comparisons to the other bests. I for one won't take offense if it bests the Visseaux


----------



## Mechans1

decentlevi said:


> We would like to hear your results with the Marconi and Brimar tubes - especially comparisons to the other bests. I for one won't take offense if it bests the Visseaux


 

   Tubes by Marconi in Canada are usually made by RCA.  I don't know who made   6J5  in Canada  I have for instance, been able to buy some Marconi from Spain that were actually made in Spain! So it is possible that these 6J5  were made by other manufacturers


----------



## CZ4A

mechans1 said:


> Tubes by Marconi in Canada are usually made by RCA.  I don't know who made   6J5  in Canada  I have for instance, been able to buy some Marconi from Spain that were actually made in Spain! So it is possible that these 6J5  were made by other manufacturers


 

 IIRC, Rogers and GE had plants in Canada (Rogers being a Canadian company).


----------



## HOWIE13

mechans1 said:


> Tubes by Marconi in Canada are usually made by RCA.  I don't know who made   6J5  in Canada  I have for instance, been able to buy some Marconi from Spain that were actually made in Spain! So it is possible that these 6J5  were made by other manufacturers


 
 'Radiotron' tubes were indeed made by RCA.
 Here's a great read about tubes with excellent general information for us.
  
 http://www.tubebooks.org/tubedata/R10.pdf


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Anyone heard the Brimar 6J5 ?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/301866629196?_trksid=p2057872.m2748.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...


 

 Nice pair, joespride! Those Brimar 6J5's have round plates,  like the Visseaux!!! If I hadn't snagged these Marconi's I was looking at a pair of Brimars
  
 I'm a big fan of  round plate tubes: Visseaux 6J5, Tung Sol and NU 6F8G'a as well as Tung Sol 6SN7. They are all great sounding tubes. Hard to say if it's the round plates or the era, materials and craftsmanship when round plates were used?
  
 I can think of other behavioral sicknesses MUCH worse that being a tube collector, joespride........


----------



## joespride

nwavesailor said:


> Nice pair, joespride! Those Brimar 6J5's have round plates,  like the Visseaux!!! If I hadn't snagged these Marconi's I was looking at a pair of Brimars
> 
> I'm a big fan of  round plate tubes: Visseaux 6J5, Tung Sol and NU 6F8G'a as well as Tung Sol 6SN7. They are all great sounding tubes. Hard to say if it's the round plates or the era, materials and craftsmanship when round plates were used?
> 
> I can think of other behavioral sicknesses MUCH worse that being a tube collector, joespride........


 
 I knoticed the round plate also,  In the pics they also appear to be solid plates where the visseaux are 4 hole,  if experience holds true solid plates with the likes of emission labs and sofia had better base but we will see


----------



## TraceStar

nwavesailor said:


> joespride said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone heard the Brimar 6J5 ?
> ...


 

Sweet. Update us once you've tried those babies

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## HOWIE13

Looked carefully at my 4 Visseaux today. One is smaller than the other and two have one hole and the other two have two holes.
 Anyway my wife very reluctantly agreed to be my assistant in a single blind trial and I couldn't tell any difference between any of the tubes, even after trying each one in both channels and mixing up the pairs.
 Of course they all sounded gorgeous.  My wife then asked me why I wasted money buying  four when since they all sound the same one would have been enough.


----------



## nwavesailor

howie13 said:


> Looked carefully at my 4 Visseaux today. One is smaller than the other and two have one hole and the other two have two holes.
> Anyway my wife very reluctantly agreed to be my assistant in a single blind trial and I couldn't tell any difference between any of the tubes, even after trying each one in both channels and mixing up the pairs.
> Of course they all sounded gorgeous.  My wife then asked me why I wasted money buying  four when since they all sound the same one would have been enough.


 

 Very cool! My wife will play the "which sounds better to you?" tube game for a time and then thinks it's silly. She does have better hearing than me.
  
 Now if only the rest of the 'brands' and varied internal structured 6J5 sound the same (or close) to the Visseaux, we'll be set.
  
 Thanks for pointing out that my "Marconi" made in Canada branded 6J5's were actually made by RCA.........
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I though I had snagged an under priced pair!


----------



## Oskari

nwavesailor said:


> Thanks for pointing out that my "Marconi" made in Canada branded 6J5's were actually made by RCA.........:confused_face: I though I had snagged an under priced pair!




If made in Canada, they were not made by RCA. If made in Canada, they were most likely made by RVC in Toronto.

In Canada, the Radiotron brand was used by Marconi, Westinghouse and CGE.


----------



## Mechans1

I recall having seen some Brimar 6SN7 equivalents labeled as CV1988 6SN7GTY etc.  with round plates.  I haven't check my own collection of them, by I think that they exist.  The round plate 6J5  do not make that full turn back to their origin, the way the Tung Sol round plate  6SN7s do.  Not sure if it matters all that much. Has anyone seen or heard of the explanation for  the various tube designs?
 I wish we could ask the people who engineered  these tubes why they did certain things.  I don't think any of them were considering what their roll  in  tube amps for HiFi would be.  I understand we owe the plethora of 6SN7s not only to their linearity for many and varied electronic applications but it is apparently related to their use in the first commercially available televisions. TVs from their inception in the 1950s  until circa the  mid 1960s were all tube based  (not just the CRT)  I am sure someone knows what purpose 6SN7s served in TVs. 
 (yes I know Television was invented well before the 1950s )


----------



## HOWIE13

nwavesailor said:


> Very cool! My wife will play the "which sounds better to you?" tube game for a time and then thinks it's silly. She does have better hearing than me.
> 
> Now if only the rest of the 'brands' and varied internal structured 6J5 sound the same (or close) to the Visseaux, we'll be set.
> 
> ...


 
 I think the Zenith's are almost as good, but just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, I have a pair of Zenith 6P5 tubes which I am having difficulty differentiating from the Visseaux-they just have a slight hum. I had a previous Zenith 6P5 which had a loud hum. The Hytron E1148/VT232 tubes are very good too, sound between Frankenstein and 6J5.


----------



## nwavesailor

oskari said:


> If made in Canada, they were not made by RCA. If made in Canada, they were most likely made by RVC in Toronto.
> 
> In Canada, the Radiotron brand was used by Marconi, Westinghouse and CGE.


 

 Thanks, Oskari! I saw in the photos 'made in Canada' written on the glass, but we all know how tube branding can be misleading! They do have Marconi and Radiotron licensed by Themo....on the base. Gotta do some searching on RVC, Toronto.
  
 Hopefully they will test as advertised, be quiet, have low microphonics and sound glorious.............Is that too much to ask for???


----------



## husafreak

This tube stuff is pretty crazy! I purchased a really cheap RCA Clear top "Conn" 12AU7A 1959. Kind of by mistake... In comparison to the RCA cleartop 12AU7 supplied with my Ember there is really no contest, the 12AU7A is far superior (the 12AU7 is very veiled, very soft treble). I thought they would sound the same. Actually the 12AU7A is very close to my favorite Russian 6N6P. No way I could tell them apart in blind testing.
 I am going to try a 6SN7 next. I am not ready for a twin tube setup, LOL.


----------



## Tunkejazz

A bit unrelated, I got in Christmas a RCA 6C8 and a Raytheon 6F8, I have to agree that the 6C8/6F8 families have a very deep visceral bass.


----------



## BobMonkhouse

If two 6J5s sound better than one 6SN7, a dual 6C4 combo should sound better than one 12AU7, shouldn't it?... I guess, I need to hear it myself to find out!


----------



## DecentLevi

bobmonkhouse said:


> If two 6J5s sound better than one 6SN7, a dual 6C4 combo should sound better than one 12AU7, shouldn't it?... I guess, I need to hear it myself to find out!


 
 I recon that may have some good potential. And I noticed a 6C4 to 12AU7 adapter is available


----------



## husafreak

Ah, I see some familiar faces from the diyah boards! Honestly this is pretty fun. I see the attraction. I am taking your advice DecentLevi but had already purchased a few tubes after reading the first few pages... A GE smoked glass 6DJ8 arrived in the mail today, it sounds great! Tonight it will square off against the 12AU7A and 6N6P that are my favorites so far. Can some one explain what is "dual triode" VS "the normal kind". And what is happening when we use adapters or twin tube adapter setups? Post to either forum, LOL.


----------



## nwavesailor

oskari said:


> If made in Canada, they were not made by RCA. If made in Canada, they were most likely made by RVC in Toronto.
> 
> In Canada, the Radiotron brand was used by Marconi, Westinghouse and CGE.


 

 Oskari, Thank you...........I found the logo for RVC from your link and them looked at the base of these valves and there it is!
  

  
 So now that I know it is a Marconi branded valve, made in Toronto, Canada by RVC.
  
 Don't really know the RVC / Marconi tubes/ valves so I am hoping they test and sound great!


----------



## HOWIE13

husafreak said:


> Ah, I see some familiar faces from the diyah boards! Honestly this is pretty fun. I see the attraction. I am taking your advice DecentLevi but had already purchased a few tubes after reading the first few pages... A GE smoked glass 6DJ8 arrived in the mail today, it sounds great! Tonight it will square off against the 12AU7A and 6N6P that are my favorites so far. Can some one explain what is "dual triode" VS "the normal kind". And what is happening when we use adapters or twin tube adapter setups? Post to either forum, LOL.


 
 Hi husafreak.
 The smoked glass is a favourite tube of mine.


----------



## HOWIE13

6C4, 6C8, 6F8, 6CF..... This really is a never ending story.
  
 I don't think any of those people working in the factories making these tubes could have imagined how much fun and pleasure their creations would be giving us nearly 80 years later.


----------



## Mechans1

husafreak said:


> Ah, I see some familiar faces from the diyah boards! Honestly this is pretty fun. I see the attraction. I am taking your advice DecentLevi but had already purchased a few tubes after reading the first few pages... A GE smoked glass 6DJ8 arrived in the mail today, it sounds great! Tonight it will square off against the 12AU7A and 6N6P that are my favorites so far. Can some one explain what is "dual triode" VS "the normal kind". And what is happening when we use adapters or twin tube adapter setups? Post to either forum, LOL.


 

 Not sure what the 'normal kind' is.  I think you  mean a triode or pentode etc. as the normal vs two triodes in the same glass envelope which makes up the dual triode..   There are many dual triodes, I'm sure you familiar with 12A-7 tubes like the 12AT7 and 12AX7 both are dual triodes. I am not an EE so I can't tell you why they are so often used, but on another tube forum that I read, the answer is that dual triodes keep costs down and not their sonic virtues. You can use one tube instead of two. I hope that is clear, if not could you rephrase your question?


----------



## husafreak

Oh that is a fine answer. By "the normal kind" I meant tubes that plug directly into the Ember and are listed in the manual. I need to find somewhere to read about how tubes are constructed, and different ways they are used in amps. Thanks


----------



## DecentLevi

Well here's a photo with a diagram of the insides of a tube that someone drew up on the Elise thread after a failed shipment. It's the insides of a pentode tube, but can help nevertheless. Thanks to @Oskari


----------



## nwavesailor

oskari said:


> If made in Canada, they were not made by RCA. If made in Canada, they were most likely made by RVC in Toronto.
> 
> In Canada, the Radiotron brand was used by Marconi, Westinghouse and CGE.


 

 Oskari, what can you tell me about the reputation of the RVC / Marconi tubes made in the 1950's in Toronto? Waiting for them to arrive from Canada and thought you may have some general impressions.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## HOWIE13

husafreak said:


> Ah, I see some familiar faces from the diyah boards! Honestly this is pretty fun. I see the attraction. I am taking your advice DecentLevi but had already purchased a few tubes after reading the first few pages... A GE smoked glass 6DJ8 arrived in the mail today, it sounds great! Tonight it will square off against the 12AU7A and 6N6P that are my favorites so far. Can some one explain what is "dual triode" VS "the normal kind". And what is happening when we use adapters or twin tube adapter setups? Post to either forum, LOL.


 
 There isn't such a thing as a 'normal' kind '.
 Originally triodes were single in the sense there was one in each tube. In order to save space and cut costs tubes were later manufactured with two triodes in each tube- for sound purposes one serves each channel. So for stereophonic sound you can either have a dual single triode set up or a single dual triode set up. Hope that clarifies.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Well here's a photo with a diagram of the insides of a tube that someone drew up on the Elise thread after a failed shipment. It's the insides of a pentode tube, but can help nevertheless. Thanks to @Oskari


 
 That's really good.


----------



## Oskari

nwavesailor said:


> Oskari, what can you tell me about the reputation of the RVC / Marconi tubes made in the 1950's in Toronto? Waiting for them to arrive from Canada and thought you may have some general impressions.




I can't really. Perhaps somebody in Canada can help here. I have no reason to suspect anything bad, though.


----------



## husafreak

Thanks for the lessons!


----------



## DecentLevi

@Oskari the Finnish head-fi'er! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  - Two more posts and you'll have the Headphonus Sepremus status! Maybe one of us will send you a free tube in celebration


----------



## Oskari

Who do I send the wish list to?


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Anyone heard the Brimar 6J5 ?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/301866629196?_trksid=p2057872.m2748.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...


 

 "If joespride jumped off a bridge would you follow???"      
  
 Apparently I WOULD!
 Snagged a pair of 6J5G Brimars. Perhaps it *IS* a sickness!


----------



## joespride

nwavesailor said:


> "If joespride jumped off a bridge would you follow???"
> 
> Apparently I WOULD!
> Snagged a pair of 6J5G Brimars. Perhaps it *IS* a sickness!


 
 Congrats.....................I am awaiting delivery a week or so
  
 Where did you find a pair ?


----------



## joespride

This looks like a good deal on a decent pair of Zenith, (my wallet is Kaput or I would have snapped them up)  thought it may interest someone here
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/ZENITH-6J5G-PAIR-TUBES-/371553248151?hash=item56824ca397:g:aE0AAOSwzgRWvnAU
  
  
 No Affiliation


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> This looks like a good deal on a decent pair of Zenith, (my wallet is Kaput or I would have snapped them up)  thought it may interest someone here
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ZENITH-6J5G-PAIR-TUBES-/371553248151?hash=item56824ca397:g:aE0AAOSwzgRWvnAU
> 
> ...


 

 See, joespride, you can say NO to a pair of Zenith 6J5's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so it is NOT a disease...........a tube obsession?........... perhaps........... but that's true for most of us!
  
 I snagged my pair of NOS round plate 1950's Brimar's from Tube World. I should have them Tuesday (Monday being a PO holiday) It will be interesting comparing them to the French made Visseaux.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I just had a scare.
  
 After quickly swapping tubes with admittedly a little more force than needed, one channel stopped working on my Ember. I ensured the cables were all secure, swapped tubes back and tried the output to multiple sources, but still just one channel.
  
 So I thought I better disconnect all wires (including the power to the amp) and let it chill out for 1/2 hour. Sure enough, after firing it back up it was functional again on both channels. Now with the Vissember (Visseaux / Ember) as a preamp again, I'm takan aback at how phenomenal the soundstage is again!
  
 I write this for dual reasons: always change tubes with finesse, even if you're in a hurry to avoid possibly breaking the solder. And secondly, try the above if you happen to lose audio on one channel.
  
 Just make sure you use the right kind of finesse
  
    ​


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> Well I just had a scare.
> 
> After quickly swapping tubes with admittedly a little more force than needed, one channel stopped working on my Ember. I ensured the cables were all secure, swapped tubes back and tried the output to multiple sources, but still just one channel.
> 
> ...


 

 So what is your guess as to why you regained both channels after a cool down period of 1/2 hour?
  
 I've seen tube sockets that fail when warm due to either a cold solder joint or intermittent connection at one of the solder lugs and tube pins. This could potentially be on the 2 octal socket adapter or the Ember tube socket.
  
 Hopefully this will not recur, but please post if you lose a channel again.


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> Well here's a photo with a diagram of the insides of a tube that someone drew up on the Elise thread after a failed shipment. It's the insides of a pentode tube, but can help nevertheless. Thanks to @Oskari


 
  
 My Ecc31 Tube arrived with a shard of glass busted internally, my seller refunded me in full for it, so I can't give you guys any feed back on the Ecc31
  
 so I digress, I'm just going go with a dual tube set up, I like clarity, and sound stage above all. What do you guys recommend, and I have $100 for 2 tubes and an adapter


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I feel for ya about that broken tube. Australia is a long way to ship tubes to the US - it must have gotten some harsh handling  somewhere along the way. The seller however did tell me that you _Should still be able to use it. Just leave the plastic piece at the bottom. Should not interfere with the sound and operation of the tube._
  
 Well now that you've got the 6J5 adapter and there being so many other untested types, that's the direction I would recommend.


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> Well I feel for ya about that broken tube. Australia is a long way to ship tubes to the US - it must have gotten some harsh handling  somewhere along the way. The seller however did tell me that you _Should still be able to use it. Just leave the plastic piece at the bottom. Should not interfere with the sound and operation of the tube._
> 
> Well now that you've got the 6J5 adapter and there being so many other untested types, that's the direction I would recommend.


 
 That's what he says, but optimism does not always reflect reality?
  
 My question is what happens when that plastic comes into contact with the metal, It'll melt if it melts then what? I guess I'm just paranoid
  
 and I may eventually get around to trying it, though if it's plastic I guess it'll b ok, but if it's glass is it ok to have a free floating piece of glass rummining around
  
 and with regards to the seller, he's a great guy! Super helpful, no qualms about buying. I only hope he had insurance on the tube it self
  
 I know form experince I've had tubes bust in shipping and the insurance [even $50 100 or so] is great when I have to do a return. Either way, I'd prefer not to take that chance presently. On the tube failing mid use 
  
 Oh and I don't have the 6J5 adapter :/ it was also not included in the package


----------



## DecentLevi

Well maybe if you could show us some photos of the damage, then we can advise you on further troubleshooting.
  
 The ECC31 would have needed it's own ECC31 to 6SN7 adapter.
  
 For the undisputed champion 6J5 tubes, you would need it's dual adapter here, and also here you can see the vast selection that hasn't been tried in the Ember yet.
 Note: I've already tried the Sylvania and Selectron 6J5's, and myself and a friend both found them somewhat sub-par so go with another 6J5 pair


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> Well maybe if you could show us some photos of the damage, then we can advise you on further troubleshooting.
> 
> The ECC31 would have needed it's own ECC31 to 6SN7 adapter.
> 
> ...


 
 I went with a dual set of KenRads honestly, they were super cheap for the pair. so I'll bite and I do have some pictures that I can post 
  
 Oh duh, actually, I meant to say I didn't go with 6j5 I grabbed a pair of Daul 7193's KenRads an the adapters 
  

  

  
 these are the pics
  
 also, again my Seller was excellent, super easy to work with. Super easy to deal with given the damage,


----------



## DecentLevi

It's just a little fin that's chipped off, I personally wouldn't worry too much about it.
  
 Also I hate to break it to ya, but you are taking a step backwards if you're trying the 7193 setup. This was known as "Franken Ember" and used to be regarded here as the best for the Ember, but now 100% of the 4-6 people who have tried the 6J5's agree that most of these sound superior. Plus there are dozens of varieties of 6J5, whereas there are only 3 types of 7193. And the 6J5's are more visually pleasing without those extra external wires, and without the necessity to stack two adapters together. Finally most 6J5's have a "Coke bottle" shape which seems to give a larger soundstage, whereas the 7193's are all straight tube shaped


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> It's just a little fin that's chipped off, I personally wouldn't worry too much about it.
> 
> Also I hate to break it to ya, but you are taking a step backwards if you're trying the 7193 setup. This was known as "Franken Ember" and used to be regarded here as the best for the Ember, but now 100% of the 4-6 people who have tried the 6J5's agree that most of these sound superior. Plus there are dozens of varieties of 6J5, whereas there are only 3 types of 7193. And the 6J5's are more visually pleasing without those extra external wires, and without the necessity to stack two adapters together. Finally most 6J5's have a "Coke bottle" shape which seems to give a larger soundstage, whereas the 7193's are all straight tube shaped


 
 well that's good to know, time to cancel cancel cancel


----------



## connieflyer

Having used the 7193's I would agree that the 6j5;s sound better, however, I would not say the coke bottle shape sounds better than the the straight glass tube.  I have both, and have had two pair of Visseaux's as well, and the shape of the bottle did not seem to matter to what I heard.  Would be interesting to see this confirmed by measurements,  You are dismissing a whole class of tubes, do I prefer the look of the shape of the "coke bottle" over the straight side, yes, but sonically I find the difference is not in the shape but in the construction of elements and materials.


----------



## nwavesailor

connieflyer said:


> *but sonically I find the difference is not in the shape but in the construction of elements and materials.*
> 
> Have you determined what similar 'construction' elements you have found in the best 6J5Gs you have tried, be they GT (straight sided) or ST ('coke bottle' shape) envelopes?
> 
> ...


----------



## ericr

FWIW, a short blurb about RVC:

http://www.r-type.org/static/makervc.htm


----------



## nwavesailor

ericr said:


> FWIW, a short blurb about RVC:
> 
> http://www.r-type.org/static/makervc.htm


 

 Thanks to you and Oskari for the link to the RVC blurb!


----------



## Makiah S

connieflyer said:


> Having used the 7193's I would agree that the 6j5;s sound better, however, I would not say the coke bottle shape sounds better than the the straight glass tube.  I have both, and have had two pair of Visseaux's as well, and the shape of the bottle did not seem to matter to what I heard.  Would be interesting to see this confirmed by measurements,  You are dismissing a whole class of tubes, do I prefer the look of the shape of the "coke bottle" over the straight side, yes, but sonically I find the difference is not in the shape but in the construction of elements and materials.


 
 So I've got like $70 what do you guys recommend for a dual 6j5 Set Up


----------



## sneaky415

mshenay said:


> So I've got like $70 what do you guys recommend for a dual 6j5 Set Up


 
 I like the L63, really nice, delicate sound. I don't think you can go wrong with it. 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/L63-CV1067-GEC-VALVE-TUBE-/201331302145?hash=item2ee047df01mGTrLL5h5Lex_05Edtz-OSQ


----------



## nwavesailor

sneaky415 said:


> I like the L63, really nice, delicate sound. I don't think you can go wrong with it.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/L63-CV1067-GEC-VALVE-TUBE-/201331302145?hash=item2ee047df01mGTrLL5h5Lex_05Edtz-OSQ


 

 I suppose you could ask this UK seller for a matched pair.
  
 I have no affiliation with this seller other than having just bought my Vissauex 6J5G's from him. The tubes he sold me were were nicely packed and very closely matched.
  
 Here is a matched pair he has:http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-L63-6J5GT-CV1067-CVC-by-GEC-Black-Plates-O-Matched-Tubes-NOS-NIB-/301872035712?hash=item4648f9b780:g:37kAAOSw~OVWv2wj
  
 A bit over the $70 you had in your budget but matched and NIB /NOS


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> I suppose you could ask this UK seller for a matched pair.
> 
> I have no affiliation with this seller other than having just bought my Vissauex 6J5G's from him. The tubes he sold me were were nicely packed and very closely matched.
> 
> ...


 
 That should work, what are teh power requirements for Dual 6j5, I think we figured out the Ember and the Starlight both handle like 1A heat current right? 
 So I should be ok with teh dual 
  
 any one have a link to the Dual 6j5 Adapter


----------



## nwavesailor

mshenay said:


> That should work, what are teh power requirements for Dual 6j5, I think we figured out the Ember and the Starlight both handle like 1A heat current right?
> So I should be ok with teh dual
> 
> any one have a link to the Dual 6j5 Adapter


 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201458214762?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 The 6J5 draw .3 amp per tube or .6 (600 mA) total.


----------



## sneaky415

mshenay said:


> That should work, what are teh power requirements for Dual 6j5, I think we figured out the Ember and the Starlight both handle like 1A heat current right?
> So I should be ok with teh dual
> 
> any one have a link to the Dual 6j5 Adapter


 
  
 I also found a nice pair of Brimar 6j5gt that probably should land within your budget:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/6J5GT-close-Matched-Pair-BRIMAR-AUDIO-TUBE-VALE-NOS-TESTED-on-AVO-Mk4-VCM-/151979988904?hash=item2362b697a8:g:qc4AAOSwUuFWu8gc


----------



## nwavesailor

sneaky415 said:


> I also found a nice pair of Brimar 6j5gt that probably should land within your budget:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6J5GT-close-Matched-Pair-BRIMAR-AUDIO-TUBE-VALE-NOS-TESTED-on-AVO-Mk4-VCM-/151979988904?hash=item2362b697a8:g:qc4AAOSwUuFWu8gc


 

 And those Brimar's have round (oval) plates!


----------



## DecentLevi

mshenay said:


> So I've got like $70 what do you guys recommend for a dual 6j5 Set Up


 
 Mshenay I would recommend this 6J5 Marconi, or this 6J5 Philco, which are both similar shape to the Visseaux and seem super rare. Let us know if you don't get it, so one of us can try it.


----------



## Oskari

decentlevi said:


> Mshenay I would recommend this 6J5 Marconi, or this 6J5 Philco, which are both similar shape to the Visseaux and seem super rare. Let us know if you don't get it, so one of us can try it.


 
  
 The "Marconi" has British Tungsram code on it (T in KB/T).


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> Mshenay I would recommend this 6J5 Marconi, or this 6J5 Philco, which are both similar shape to the Visseaux and seem super rare. Let us know if you don't get it, so one of us can try it.


 

 If by 'similar shape' you mean ST (coke bottle shape envelope) then these pairs are similar to the Visseaux.
  
 Please look carefully at the internal structure: plates, mica'a and 1 with a support rod and 1 w/o on the pair of Philco's. The Visseaux (and likely UK Marconi branded Tungsram) plates are round (oval) and the Philco's are flat. The mica spacers are not the same on this Philco pair. I don't know if we have enough samples to say plate shape (or vintage) matter or do not. Am I a fan of round and oval plates in tubes? Yep! Are all round and oval plate tubes great? Likely not but the best tubes I have personally used of the 6SN7 type (6J5, 6F8, and 6SN7) have all had round or oval plates!
  
 I suppose time will tell what matters. 
  
 If buying a pair of tubes to be used as a pair, I prefer a similar structure in each tube of that pair.
  
 YMMV


----------



## DecentLevi

I'm not necessarily saying those tube suggestions were directly comparable to the Visseaux, just that they have a similar form factor, width-wise, so perhaps they would also have a big soundstage. Trial & error is what tube rolling is all about, and the results just may be better than expected, especially when being the first to try it


----------



## sneaky415

If someones got a bit of extra cash on hand and wants to be a bit adventurous I found Mazda 76 tubes for sale here.
  
 Adapter can be found here.
  
 I would try them myself but I've spent enough for now, I've got the Visseaux's incoming. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 They should be with me in a couple of weeks.


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> I'm not necessarily saying those tube suggestions were directly comparable to the Visseaux, just that they have a similar form factor, width-wise, so perhaps they would also have a big soundstage. Trial & error is what tube rolling is all about, and the results just may be better than expected, especially when being the first to try it


 

 Fair enough, Levi!
  
 I, for one, hope we find very little difference in the various 6J5 shapes, internals or vintage and they all sound killer!


----------



## nwavesailor

sneaky415 said:


> If someones got a bit of extra cash on hand and wants to be a bit adventurous I found Mazda 76 tubes for sale here.
> 
> Adapter can be found here.
> 
> ...


 

 You are an evil, sneaky415!!!!!!!
  
 Just when I'm starting to assemble a nice assortment of 6J5's you wave a new (make that old!) shiny object to chase and these Mazda'a have round (oval) plates.
  
 Heck, I'm trying to sell off some tubes but here I am buying more................joespride is right.........It's a disease!


----------



## Oskari

nwavesailor said:


> UK Marconi branded Tungsgram


 
  
 Marconi, in fact, seems to be a figment of the seller's imagination. I see GEC brand (sticker) and British Tungsram code.


----------



## sneaky415

nwavesailor said:


> You are an evil, sneaky415!!!!!!!
> 
> Just when I'm starting to assemble a nice assortment of 6J5's you wave a new (make that old!) shiny object to chase and these Mazda'a have round plates.
> 
> Heck, I'm trying to sell off some tubes but here I am buying more................joespride is right.........It's a disease!


 
  
 That suggestion is just if your sitting on a pile of cash and don't know what to spend it on. Otherwise just wait and I will try them. But your right it is a sickness. Ive spent more on tubes than on the Ember itself. Nice thing is I could put them up for sale and probably recoup most of my money. If I spend money on a vacation that money is gone forever.


----------



## Mechans1

I know it's just a choice of language used, but I always called that type of plate an oval plate because of the way it differs from the classic round plate found for instance in some Tung Sol 6SN7GT black glass tubes for instance.  Those plates really forms a circle emanating from and terminating from very close location in the tube.  Brimar had made 6SN7s that look a great deal like the 6J5 you are discussing, but they were not called round plates.    However just to add some murkiness to the picture, if that wasn't enough, Brimar has produced some CV1988 6SN7GTYs with colored glass and what I call round plates.  I don't think it matters after all is said and done, the only thing that really counts is performance. 
 Having black glass or any other fancy attribute doesn't automatically confer some level of excellence.  I know this for sure,  I have some very mediocre sounding Tung Sol round plate 6SN7GTs to prove that point.


----------



## nwavesailor

mechans1 said:


> I know it's just a choice of language used, but I always called that type of plate an oval plate because of the way it differs from the classic round plate found for instance in some Tung Sol 6SN7GT black glass tubes for instance.  Those plates really forms a circle emanating from and terminating from very close location in the tube.  Brimar had made 6SN7s that look a great deal like the 6J5 you are discussing, but they were not called round plates.    However just to add some murkiness to the picture, if that wasn't enough, Brimar has produced some CV1988 6SN7GTYs with colored glass and what I call round plates.  I don't think it matters after all is said and done, the only thing that really counts is performance.
> Having black glass or any other fancy attribute doesn't automatically confer some level of excellence.  I know this for sure,  I have some very mediocre sounding Tung Sol round plate 6SN7GTs to prove that point.


 

 Point taken Mechans1!
  
  Yes, the Tung Sol 6SN7 Round Plate plates are indeed more round than the plates on the 6J5G's. I will now refer to this plate shape as *oval*.
  
 Perhaps I am very lucky and snagged good pairs, but the 4 tube varieties of 6SN7 type I own using round or oval plates (Visseaux 6J5, TS 6F8G / VT99, NU 6F8G / VT99 and Tung Sol Round Plate 6SN7 / VT 231) are my favorites.
  
 As always, YMMV


----------



## Makiah S

sneaky415 said:


> If someones got a bit of extra cash on hand and wants to be a bit adventurous I found Mazda 76 tubes for sale here.
> 
> Adapter can be found here.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


decentlevi said:


> I'm not necessarily saying those tube suggestions were directly comparable to the Visseaux, just that they have a similar form factor, width-wise, so perhaps they would also have a big soundstage. Trial & error is what tube rolling is all about, and the results just may be better than expected, especially when being the first to try it


 
  
  


decentlevi said:


> Mshenay I would recommend this 6J5 Marconi, or this 6J5 Philco, which are both similar shape to the Visseaux and seem super rare. Let us know if you don't get it, so one of us can try it.


 
  
  


sneaky415 said:


> I also found a nice pair of Brimar 6j5gt that probably should land within your budget:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6J5GT-close-Matched-Pair-BRIMAR-AUDIO-TUBE-VALE-NOS-TESTED-on-AVO-Mk4-VCM-/151979988904?hash=item2362b697a8:g:qc4AAOSwUuFWu8gc


 
 What Type are the Mazda's?
  
 I might also try the Philco's and the Brimar's out, what do you guys think about those two, or maybe just go all out an grab the Mazda's and the Philcos


----------



## DecentLevi

That Brimar 6J5 seems to have a virtually identical internal/external design as my Sylvania and Selectron/RCA 6J5's; of which both myself and another person who tried it both agree it's a bit lacking in the tonality and soundstage


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> That Brimar 6J5 seems to have a virtually identical internal/external design as my Sylvania and Selectron/RCA 6J5's; of which both myself and another person who tried it both agree it's a bit lacking in the tonality and soundstage


 

 Are The Brimar's 6J5, the GT shape (straight sides) versions that you are comparing to the Sylvania's and RCA's?
  
 I will be getting these Brimar's tomorrow with the ST (coke bottle) shape:
  

  
 Hope they are close to or better than the Visseaux!!!!!!!!


----------



## DecentLevi

Those ones above look good. I was saying the straight sided ones may not be so great. Guess I've become a bit biased toward the Coke tubez


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> Those ones above look good. I was saying the straight sided ones may not be so great. Guess I've become a bit biased toward the Coke tubez


 

 Thanks, Levi.........
  
 I'm partial to the look of the ST bottles as well. If they sound better than the straight sided 6J5 versions, then I'm good!


----------



## nwavesailor

mshenay said:


> What Type are the Mazda's?
> 
> The Mazda'a are 76 type.
> 
> Do a Google search for "76 tubes in audio" and you'll find some pretty good info!


----------



## Makiah S

What are teh Power Specs on the 76's can I run them dual configuration on the Starlight is my main question? 
  
 Lastly, the Marconi's seem... over priced frankly, 
  
 and yea maybe the Straight Edge tubes seem kinda lame, compared to the Coke Bottle ones
  
 Levi, have you heard Philips brand tubes previously? They look tempting price wise


----------



## nwavesailor

mshenay said:


> What are teh Power Specs on the 76's can I run them dual configuration on the Starlight is my main question?
> 
> _Do a goggle search for '76 tube data' and you'll find the heater current it draws..............._


----------



## Makiah S

sneaky415 said:


> If someones got a bit of extra cash on hand and wants to be a bit adventurous I found Mazda 76 tubes for sale here.
> 
> Adapter can be found here.
> 
> ...


 
 well I thank nWave for his encouragement, I've got a pair an the Adapter inBound to me, sadly the Tubes are US Based and the Adapter is out of china
  
 but it came to 89, with the adapter and all the shipping
  
 let's hope these reach me in good condition 
  
 I have a ecc31 Adapter in Bound, I guess if the Mazda's sound terrible... I might give it a try... I'm still not sure if I trust the tube, my concern is. If it's plastic it'll melt and there's no issue, if it's glass it'll possible explode and that'll be a schiit storm 
  
 but Rare tubes ftw I guess! Why not start amassing a nice collection of the really rare and obscure stuff! Any on try the 76's yet?


----------



## Luckbad

Anyone done direct comparisons between the Project Sunrise III and Project Ember II?
  
 I've owned both (still have the Sunrise), but never gave the Ember superior tubes.
  
 I'm curious if you can get as much tube sweetness out of the Ember as you can the Sunrise.
  
 I ask because I'm going to sell my Master-11 (need money) and get a Project Something for home in addition to the Sunrise I have at work.


----------



## Makiah S

luckbad said:


> Anyone done direct comparisons between the Project Sunrise III and Project Ember II?
> 
> I've owned both (still have the Sunrise), but never gave the Ember superior tubes.
> 
> ...


 
 Dx por QUE
  
 me so jellllllllllllllllllllly, I've been eye balling the M11 for like forever! Sadly I have no space for it, either way GLWS


----------



## nwavesailor

> Originally Posted by *Mshenay* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I'm still not sure if I trust the tube, my concern is. If it's plastic it'll melt and there's no issue, if it's glass it'll possible explode and that'll be a schiit storm
> 
> Don't sweat the mica piece (it is not plastic) floating around inside the tube! Mica or a piece of glass will NOT cause an EXPLOSION!!!


----------



## nwavesailor

mshenay said:


> well I thank nWave for his encouragement, I've got a pair an the Adapter inBound to me, sadly the Tubes are US Based and the Adapter is out of china
> 
> but it came to 89, with the adapter and all the shipping
> 
> ...


----------



## joespride

luckbad said:


> Anyone done direct comparisons between the Project Sunrise III and Project Ember II?
> 
> I've owned both (still have the Sunrise), but never gave the Ember superior tubes.
> 
> ...


 
 I have had both (though not at the same time) and I much prefer the Ember with the 6j5 setup


----------



## joespride

mshenay said:


> well I thank nWave for his encouragement, I've got a pair an the Adapter inBound to me, sadly the Tubes are US Based and the Adapter is out of china
> 
> but it came to 89, with the adapter and all the shipping
> 
> ...


 
 I have a pair of the 76 and they sound great except they have a hum which for me is a deal killer, The hum is below the music level IOW while music is playing the hum is not audible.  The tubes have a good warm sweet sound.  My OCD will not let me ignore the background noise.


----------



## Makiah S

joespride said:


> I have a pair of the 76 and they sound great except they have a hum which for me is a deal killer, The hum is below the music level IOW while music is playing the hum is not audible.  The tubes have a good warm sweet sound.  My OCD will not let me ignore the background noise.


 
  I think almost everything I have on the Starlight Hums just a little in the background [except the GE GTA 6sn7]
  
 I just hope they bring me a nice addition of sound stage though "good, warm and sweet" are usually not my prefferance. I like the sound of my VokShod Rocket, rather hard and well spaced, my only aim for a set of Duals is to get a wider sound stage So I guess we shall see!!!


----------



## Oskari

mshenay said:


> I'm still not sure if I trust the tube, my concern is. If it's plastic it'll melt and there's no issue, if it's glass it'll possible explode and that'll be a schiit storm




As nwavesailor says, mica and glass are not big issues. Plastic would be a major outgassing concern. Guess why there's no plastic inside tubes.


----------



## Makiah S

oskari said:


> As nwavesailor says, mica and glass are not big issues. Plastic would be a major outgassing concern. Guess why there's no plastic inside tubes.


 
 some said it was plastic, other says it's glass <.< I dunno I guess screw it. I'll hope for the best


----------



## joespride

I am going to offer up some tubes I wont be using, 4 pair of the single triodes. Mention it here as they are for the 6j5 adapter
  
 1 Pair NOS Hytron 6c5gt (straight glass)
 1 pair sylvania close match 6c5g (st shape)
 2 pair National Union (76) 6l5g (st shape)
  
 All 4 pair are in great shape 3 pair have boxes, 2 of which are original boxes, the Sylvania st shape have the plain white boxes
  
 This is a great cheap way to roll some tubes and see if you like the flavor, I will sell all 4 pair for 50.00 plus shipping and fees shoot me a PM if your interested


----------



## sneaky415

mshenay said:


> well I thank nWave for his encouragement, I've got a pair an the Adapter inBound to me, sadly the Tubes are US Based and the Adapter is out of china
> 
> but it came to 89, with the adapter and all the shipping
> 
> ...


 
  
 The 76 have 0.3 A heater current so they should work fine in the Starligt. I couldn't restrain myself and also bought a pair, I live in Europe so it will probably take 2-3 weeks. I hope we will be pleasantly surprised with the sound


----------



## Oskari

mshenay said:


> some said it was plastic, other says it's glass <.< I dunno I guess screw it. I'll hope for the best




Don't stress it! There's no plastic in there. Mica will be inert. Glass will be inert.


----------



## Demo3

demo3 said:


> Do any of you guys have any experience pairing the Ember with its different forms with the Ether C?


 
 OK... because none you guys would answer my question a few weeks ago, I had to go out and buy my own Ether C to see what it sounds like with the Ember.  My wife is so mad at you guys for not letting me live vicariously through you posts.  Now I am forced to listen for 200 hours or more just to break them in before I decide If I like them.  I know, someone had to do it.  I should stop complaining and start listening.


----------



## joespride

joespride said:


> I am going to offer up some tubes I wont be using, 4 pair of the single triodes. Mention it here as they are for the 6j5 adapter
> 
> 1 Pair NOS Hytron 6c5gt (straight glass)
> 1 pair sylvania close match 6c5g (st shape)
> ...


 
 SOLD PENDING PMT. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I will let the buyer tell yall if he has a mind to


----------



## Makiah S

oskari said:


> Don't stress it! There's no plastic in there. Mica will be inert. Glass will be inert.


 
 let's hope so. It'll b March before I can listen to it either way 
  


sneaky415 said:


> The 76 have 0.3 A heater current so they should work fine in the Starligt. I couldn't restrain myself and also bought a pair, I live in Europe so it will probably take 2-3 weeks. I hope we will be pleasantly surprised with the sound


 
  
 Mhmm, I did some digging too, an they are possibly French. They appear to be a European Tube brand either way it seems. In terms of sound, there is not a lot. Also the Ecc 31 Adapter is set to arrive as easrly as March 9th :/ with the Mazda Adapter, set to arrive around the 24'th of Febuary so we shall see! Here's to hoping these tubes sound good, an reach me in good condition


----------



## nwavesailor

mshenay said:


> let's hope so. It'll b March before I can listen to it either way
> 
> 
> Mhmm, I did some digging too, an they are possibly French. They appear to be a European Tube brand either way it seems. In terms of sound, there is not a lot. Also the Ecc 31 Adapter is set to arrive as easrly as March 9th :/ with the Mazda Adapter, set to arrive around the 24'th of Febuary so we shall see! Here's to hoping these tubes sound good, an reach me in good condition


 

 Your ECC31 tube will be A-OK with a small piece of mica (it is NOT plastic!) floating around inside. If the seller refunded w/o you returning, you essentially now have a free tube to try.
  
 Some of the guys at the Woo HeadFi forum think the ECC31 sound really nice!!!


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> Your ECC31 tube will be A-OK with a small piece of mica (it is NOT plastic!) floating around inside. If the seller refunded w/o you returning, you essentially now have a free tube to try.
> 
> Some of the guys at the Woo HeadFi forum think the ECC31 sound really nice!!!


 
 He did refund me, again he was a fantastic fellow to buy from. Though given the well trip I may refrain from making any purchases from that far away. As he... well he SERIOSULY packed that tube REALLY freaking well, it was in a bag which had the Plastic Air Stuff, then in a box with Peanuts, then wrapped in like 1 inch of small bubble, bubble wrap. An despite all of freaking that... the damn thing came to be busted as you saw [and I have no idea where the adapter went to] so I suppose for my self, I might just avoid buying and selling with that much distance 
  
 Either way, it'll b march before I can try the Ecc 31. An hopefully, you guys in Europe will have a better chance buying tubes from the Western Hemipshere. It seems the long journey was to much for the Mullard ECC31 I got :/ 
  
 still I need to grab a 6j5 adapter when I get my paycheck and pick up a cheap set of those. Cuz why not, my Starlight get's 90% of my head time these days


----------



## HOWIE13

Thanks to DecentLevi for pointing out the 6A6 and 6N7 tubes which I've had a chance to test out. Mercifully all tubes arrived intact and had good parameters.
  
 Both tube types are similar with the same characteristics and also share a similar sound.  The 6A6 predated the 6N7. They are characterised by a warm, euphonic, capacious, solid, easy flowing sound, reminiscent of floor speakers. The immediate most obvious difference from other octal dual triodes I've heard is that they are louder, amplification factor 35. This shows as a general increase in all frequencies, with no tendency to differential upper- mid brightness. The bass is very well presented, with the different layers easily differentiated from each other. Listening to Schubert's String Quintet it was easier than I have ever experienced to differentiate the two cellos, and viola, even though they are sitting very close together, not just by the position and imaging, but also by the different timbre of the instruments. The same applied to the same composer's Trout Quintet, where the double bass, which usually just sounds mixed in with the cellos had very clear individuality. The mids are quite forward, but not claustrophobically, the highs were slightly attenuated on all tubes except a 6N7 RCA and  6A6 Ken-Rad. The Ken-Rad was actually surprisingly bright but it settled down playing overnight, so it maybe an unused tube. In general I would say the treble on these tubes is realistic, without being emphasised.
 The 6A6's had a bigger sound-stage than the 6N7's, I hesitate to suggest that's due to their large coke bottle shape-but it's interesting all the same. Their sound-stage is the largest I've experienced with Ember, the 6N7's are normal bottle shaped and share a similar sound-stage to FrankenEmber, with a smoother, warmer sound, no treble brightness, no muddy lower mids which some people (including myself) have occasionally observed  with the otherwise excellent FrankenEmber.
 Visseaux and some other 6J5 owners don't need to worry though-these tubes don't quite have their energy or fine detail, but with a brighter can they sound very impressive to me. As an example they suit the HD600 very well, more so than the HD650. They are quiet, just a mild hum with my X2. There was noise turning the volpot unless I invoked the input capacitors. 
 The adapters, (the two tube types require different adapters) work fine though the 6A6 to 6SN7 is a behemoth monster. Ever helpful Mrs Xu Ling has now specially produced a 6N7 to ECC88 adapter  to avoid using an additional 6SN7 to ECC88 adapter.
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201525061048?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Tubes:    6A6- Sylvania and Ken Rad.
              6N7- Brimar, RCA, both glass bottle, Ken-Rad, metal.
 Sources: X5 (FLAC),CD6004, PDR-609, M-DAC, Bushmaster 2, NOS DAC's, Muse and Mini TDA1543
 Amp:      Ember 2.
 Music:    Various Classical and Jazz.
 Disclaimer: Just all my personal initial impressions of a tiny selection of these tubes., 
  
 Here's a couple of articles with some info. Apologies if they have been posted before.
  
 http://vinylsavor.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/tube-of-month-6a6.html
  
 http://vinylsavor.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/tube-of-month-6n7.html
  
 Hope to hear more people's experience with these tubes soon.


----------



## nwavesailor

howie13 said:


> Thanks to DecentLevi for pointing out the 6A6 and 6N7 tubes which I've had a chance to test out. Mercifully all tubes arrived intact and had good parameters.
> 
> Both tube types are similar with the same characteristics and also share a similar sound.  The 6A6 predated the 6N7. They are characterised by a warm, euphonic, capacious, solid, easy flowing sound, reminiscent of floor speakers. The immediate most obvious difference from other octal dual triodes I've heard is that they are louder, amplification factor 35. This shows as a general increase in all frequencies, with no tendency to differential upper- mid brightness. The bass is very well presented, with the different layers easily differentiated from each other. Listening to Schubert's String Quintet it was easier than I have ever experienced to differentiate the two cellos, and viola, even though they are sitting very close together, not just by the position and imaging, but also by the different timbre of the instruments. The same applied to the same composer's Trout Quintet, where the double bass, which usually just sounds mixed in with the cellos had very clear individuality. The mids are quite forward, but not claustrophobically, the highs were slightly attenuated on all tubes except a 6N7 RCA and  6A6 Ken-Rad. The Ken-Rad was actually surprisingly bright but it settled down playing overnight, so it maybe an unused tube. In general I would say the treble on these tubes is realistic, without being emphasised.
> The 6A6's had a bigger sound-stage than the 6N7's, I hesitate to suggest that's due to their large coke bottle shape-but it's interesting all the same. Their sound-stage is the largest I've experienced with Ember, the 6N7's are normal bottle shaped and share a similar sound-stage to FrankenEmber, with a smoother, warmer sound, no treble brightness, no muddy lower mids which some people (including myself) have occasionally observed  with the otherwise excellent FrankenEmber.
> ...


----------



## DecentLevi

Excellent 'work' Howie! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Wow, so you are the first person to try both the 6A6 and 6N7... not only to discover that they both work with the Ember (each with their own adapter), but that they both have great sound! Especially interesting is that you said your 6A6 has an even larger soundstage than the Visseaux 6J5's.... and even though you say they're brighter and with less energy and detail, I say these could pair quite well depending on the headphone used, and this could be a cheaper path instead of the Visseaux (and it's close-sibling Zenith 6J5).
  
 Of course these are only a few of many different types of 6A6 and 6N7 tubes out there, so many other possible sound flavors are still waiting to be had. But this particular tube journey is gonna have to be all up to you guys, because I for one am transitioning to a new tube amp - unless I get word of one of these tubes that further refine on the dynamics of the Visseaux - then we're talkin'! It's worth mentioning too that there are many untried 6A6 out there that are cheaper than the shipping.
  
 And finally I guess it's worth repeating...

  
 PS - Howie would you mind sharing photos of your new tubes in the amp?


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Excellent 'work' Howie!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks-it's fun and enjoyable when it works out- frustrating when it doesn't!
 I wouldn't say they are brighter than the Visseaux, just the Ken-Rad 6A6, though it's mellowing as I play it so it may be new tube syndrome.
 I'll happily post some pictures later this morning , unfortunately I have to go to the dentist to have a tooth pulled first 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
 Meantime if you go to the first link about the 6A6 tubes you can see a picture of the Ken-Rad- a pretty cool looking tube.


----------



## HOWIE13

Here's a couple of photos;
  
 The first is the Ken-Rad 6A6 and below it an RCA 6N7.


----------



## DecentLevi

howie13 said:


> Here's a couple of photos;
> 
> The first is the Ken-Rad 6A6 and below it an RCA 6N7.


 
  
 Wow, avant-garde looking towers!


----------



## HOWIE13

@DecentLevi   I think they would look even more impressive with the black metallic top plate


----------



## jaywillin

this may be a silly question
 the 6a6 does not have the center guide pin,post, so orientation doesn't matter when installing into the adapter socket ?


----------



## HOWIE13

jaywillin said:


> this may be a silly question
> the 6a6 does not have the center guide pin,post, so orientation doesn't matter when installing into the adapter socket ?


 
 Not silly at all.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Two adjacent pins of the 6A6 are wider than the others and these slot into two adjacent wider holes in the adapter. It's obvious once you have them in your hands. You have to push quite hard to slot in these pins but they are very secure. 
 Have a look at the holes in the adapter in this picture and you can see the front two are wider.
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1PC-Gold-plated-6A6-TO-6SN7-ECC33-B65-CV181-tube-converter-adapter-/201439857648?hash=item2ee6c04bf0:g:00UAAOSwVL1WC5Ux


----------



## jaywillin

howie13 said:


> Not silly at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 i kind of thought there was something going on there, 
 my 6sn7 adapter  will be coming in from jeremy over the weekend, next up will be the more "exotic" tube options
 among the tubes i got from joespride, i have a sylvania 6sn7, the 7193 adapter and ken-rad tubes , so i have those to play with
 for a while, then i'll try some of the others
  
  
 thanks !


----------



## HOWIE13

jaywillin said:


> i kind of thought there was something going on there,
> my 6sn7 adapter  will be coming in from jeremy over the weekend, next up will be the more "exotic" tube options
> among the tubes i got from joespride, i have a sylvania 6sn7, the 7193 adapter and ken-rad tubes , so i have those to play with
> for a while, then i'll try some of the others
> ...


 
 Yes it's better to take these tubes one step at a time as you are doing. It's much more informative and helped me to decide  which I prefer.


----------



## jaywillin

howie13 said:


> Yes it's better to take these tubes one step at a time as you are doing. It's much more informative and helped me to decide  which I prefer.


 
 i agree
  
 i just realized something, i have a sunrise, not an ember, and the 7193 adapter will cover the biasing pots


----------



## HOWIE13

jaywillin said:


> i agree
> 
> i just realized something, i have a sunrise, not an ember, and the 7193 adapter will cover the biasing pots


 
 i have the same problem with Starlight. I just remove the top plate when biasing that way I have space to reach the screws with the screwdriver.


----------



## jaywillin

howie13 said:


> i have the same problem with Starlight. I just remove the top plate when biasing that way I have space to reach the screws with the screwdriver.


 
 i was wondering if that might work


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/201458214762?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> The 6J5 draw .3 amp per tube or .6 (600 mA) total.


 
 ok so do I plug that Right into the amp or... do I just use this adapter or do I pair it with another adapter


----------



## DecentLevi

That dual 6J5 adapter is a one-man show


----------



## Makiah S

Oh thank gawd


----------



## joespride

decentlevi said:


> That dual 6J5 adapter is a one-man show


 
 Mine plugs into the 6sn7 adapter.   Is there a 6j5 adapter that is direct into the ember (IE... no 6sn7 adapter)  and clears the top plate ?  The 1 linked above does not look like it would clear the top plate anyone know ?


----------



## Makiah S

joespride said:


> Mine plugs into the 6sn7 adapter.   Is there a 6j5 adapter that is direct into the ember (IE... no 6sn7 adapter)  and clears the top plate ?  The 1 linked above does not look like it would clear the top plate anyone know ?


 
 uuuugh, I can use my 6sn7 adapter if I must


----------



## joespride

It will depend on which version of the 6j5 adapter you get, the 1 linked above appears to plug straight in with no 6sn7 adapter needed (clearance may or may not be an issue).  My 6j5 adapter is to 6sn7 and so I must use the 6sn7 adapter which means no clearance issues


----------



## Astral Abyss

mshenay said:


> uuuugh, I can use my 6sn7 adapter if I must




Jeremy's 6sn7 adapters are so good I dont even worry about it. Without the 6sn7 you can't clear the caps and have to rotate the 6J5 adapter 90 degrees. It's not a big deal, but I have 0 noise with both adapters and it's easier to remove.


----------



## DecentLevi

Option 1:
 6J5 to 6SN7 + 6SN7 to 6DJ8 adapter
  
 Option 2:
 6J5 to 6DJ8 adapter
  
 Both 6J5 adapters cost the same, so it's really better just to get option two so it's not so much of a 'towering' eyesore. To make it fit around the capacitors, just loosen the adapter with a phillips screwdriver to rotate the adapter 45' (1/4th turn), then tighten it up again
  
 EDIT: I really don't wanna be a killjoy, but about 85% of all the questions in recent months on this forum have already been answered here. "Search this thread" can search back specific keywords


----------



## connieflyer

Joe this is the one I have, but it will have to be turned 90 degrees to fit between tops of capicitors as in my avatar......      http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6J5G-6C5-VT-94-L63-CV1932-VR67-VT154-TO-12AU7-ECC82-tube-adapter-12-6V-/191794207321?hash=item2ca7d35a59 no adapter needed.  Just ordered my Elise today, about 6-7 weeks, can't wait.
  
 Also have some 9 pin tubes for sale..
 1 Aperex Bugle Boy 12AX7
 1 Amperex Bugle Boy 12AT7
 1 Telefunken 12AT7                     
 1 CV4024 Mullard Mil 12AT7
 2 Amperex Bugle Boy 12AT7    $70.00 Shipped


----------



## husafreak

Hey connieflyer, this is off topic but my Dad (passed away now) was a navigator on USAF EC-121D Warning Star Constellations in the late fifties. I believe he flew them out of Otis AFB. Then he went on to fighters.
 Back to Embers, I asked Jeremy at Garage 1217 to pick a winner 6sn7 type tube for me. I should have it and an adapter tomorrow. Looking forward to trying it out.


----------



## nwavesailor

Seen near my home on at Interstate on ramp:
  
 WILL WORK FOR *VISSEAUX 6J5G TUBES!!!*
  
 If anyone wants to sell a matched pair of Visseaux 6J5G, send me a PM..........likely easier to find here than that darn I-5 ramp!
  
 Thanks


----------



## Makiah S

joespride said:


> It will depend on which version of the 6j5 adapter you get, the 1 linked above appears to plug straight in with no 6sn7 adapter needed (clearance may or may not be an issue).  My 6j5 adapter is to 6sn7 and so I must use the 6sn7 adapter which means no clearance issues


 
  
  


decentlevi said:


> Option 1:
> 6J5 to 6SN7 + 6SN7 to 6DJ8 adapter
> 
> Option 2:
> ...


 
 I'd imagine having to re answer questions does get annoying, I'll take a look at that 
  
 also I have the Starlight so I don't have caps to clear. Chances are I'll wind up selling my Starlight with all the tubes I don't like when I'm ready to buy the Ember, and I'll invest in new Adapters at that point


----------



## joespride

decentlevi said:


> Option 1:
> 6J5 to 6SN7 + 6SN7 to 6DJ8 adapter
> 
> Option 2:
> ...


 
 Dont want to be a killjoy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I did not realize answering a ? was such an ordeal, I know it does not offend nor bother me to answer them. I also know it is a PITA to try and go back through a thread with over 100 pages in an attempt to ferrit out a simple answer.  
  
 I submit it would be just as easy for someone to ignore a question if it annoys them that it was asked more than once
  
 Also a basic KEYWORD search requires an exact match to show up results IME...........Making that a PITA as well
  
 I for 1 am here to discuss the Ember and all the possibilities it offers, I also enjoy reading all the others experiences with the Ember, I am not offended in the least if a question is asked multiple times,  I do get irritated when people interfere with that enjoyment by making useless jabs at what they consider an issue when it would be just as easy for them to ignore the so called issue
  
 I know you offer quite a bit of experience with the Ember and have contributed quite a bit to the thread but do we really need the forum police here to dictate how we use it so long as it is within the bounds of decency.  
  
 I digress


----------



## DecentLevi

I meant no ill-will towards you guys - this is a great community! It was just something I couldn't hold back saying anymore after a few months. But yeah the search thread function isn't always a quick fix.
  
 Now let's see who can outdo my tubes


----------



## Makiah S

decentlevi said:


> I meant no ill-will towards you guys - this is a great community! It was just something I couldn't hold back saying anymore after a few months. But yeah the search thread function isn't always a quick fix.
> 
> Now let's see who can outdo my tubes


 
  
  


joespride said:


> Dont want to be a killjoy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 So guys, I have a question? Do the 6j5 tubes work with the Starlight? An how about the 6sn7s do those work ;3 
  
 but yea I have 4 PAIRS of 6j5's [not the good Visseuax's] in bound to me from joespride, so let's hope they sound decently ok, at the very least I hope at least one of those pairs is a step up from my single 9pin


----------



## joespride

mshenay said:


> So guys, I have a question? Do the 6j5 tubes work with the Starlight? An how about the 6sn7s do those work ;3
> 
> but yea I have 4 PAIRS of 6j5's [not the good Visseuax's] in bound to me from joespride, so let's hope they sound decently ok, at the very least I hope at least one of those pairs is a step up from my single 9pin


 
 It is my understanding they will work with the adapter, of course you will have to adjust bias / heater (unless its auto like ember) according to Jeremy's directions.  I personally found any of the dual tube setups superior to any of the single tube designs................Of course that is subjective as all tube swaps will be.  I am chomping at the bit waiting on my Brimar, and 1 Visseaux.  If the Brimar are as good or at least close to the Visseaux I will be done tube rolling in the Ember
  
 Past experience has shown me that tube rolling can get carried away and 3 pair should suffice.
  
 Heres a ?? I have not seen asked,  Does anyone have an Estimate on tube life for the 6j5's in the Ember ?? (this is with NOS tubes)


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> So guys, I have a question? Do the 6j5 tubes work with the Starlight? An how about the 6sn7s do those work ;3
> 
> but yea I have 4 PAIRS of 6j5's [not the good Visseuax's] in bound to me from joespride, so let's hope they sound decently ok, at the very least I hope at least one of those pairs is a step up from my single 9pin


 
 Yes they both work very well in Starlight.


----------



## Luckbad

The Ember arrived today and sits atop an MHDT Labs Atlantis.


----------



## Luckbad

I'm looking for a tube that is warm, authoritative in the bass department, euphonic, musical, and smooth in the treble (ideally it rolls off/softens the treble a bit).
  
 Some possibilities after looking into it here and elsewhere...
  

6n6p Gold Grid (NOS or new Electro-Harmonix 6h30pi)
Ken-Rad 6sn7
Brimar 6sn7
National Union 6sn7
  
 Doesn't have to be 6sn7 (I do have the adapter if needed), but anything that works in the Ember.
  
 Thanks all!


----------



## nwavesailor

luckbad said:


> I'm looking for a tube that is warm, authoritative in the bass department, euphonic, musical, and smooth in the treble (ideally it rolls off/softens the treble a bit).
> 
> Some possibilities after looking into it here and elsewhere...
> 
> ...


 

 I tried some tubes last night that might fit this bill, the Brimar 6J5G!  Great sounding tubes, with just the smallest amount of rolled off highs compared to the Visseaux. I have hp that are not that detailed so while the Brimar's sound glorious, I prefer a hair more top end.


----------



## Luckbad

nwavesailor said:


> I tried some tubes last night that might fit this bill, the Brimar 6J6G!  Great sounding tubes, with just the smallest amount of rolled off highs compared to the Visseaux. I have hp that are not that detailed so while the Brimar's sound glorious, I prefer a hair more top end.


 
  
 Got a link? I'm not seeing that tube type anywhere.
  
 Do you mean 6J5G or 6V6G?


----------



## Tunkejazz

luckbad said:


> I'm looking for a tube that is warm, authoritative in the bass department, euphonic, musical, and smooth in the treble (ideally it rolls off/softens the treble a bit).
> 
> Some possibilities after looking into it here and elsewhere...
> 
> ...




So far I have got the biggest bass/subbass of all times with a RCA 6C8G  (more than ken-rad 6SN7).

It is not my my favourite though.


----------



## HOWIE13

luckbad said:


> I'm looking for a tube that is warm, authoritative in the bass department, euphonic, musical, and smooth in the treble (ideally it rolls off/softens the treble a bit).
> 
> Some possibilities after looking into it here and elsewhere...
> 
> ...


 
 You really need a genuine 'Bad Boy' 
 Other than him a FrankenJn 6F8G/6C8G, or a pair of 6L5G's should suit.


----------



## Tunkejazz

I have a number of Sylvania 'Bad Boys', more than I will ever be able to use. If you struggle to find a decently priced one, just let me know.


----------



## HOWIE13

They were called 'Bad Boys' because of their awesome bass.
 I've just had a quick squint online and of 28 offers I've seen advertising Sylvania 'Bad Boy' type tubes, only one is what I would consider a really bad 'Bad Boy'. They are probably one of the most misrepresented tubes in the marketplace at present.


----------



## connieflyer

Agreed Howie, any Sylvania with chrome top is referred to as a "bad boy" online, if you don't know the construction of the tube it is a crap shoot.


----------



## joespride

luckbad said:


> The Ember arrived today and sits atop an MHDT Labs Atlantis.


 
 Ok you are going to need to give us some details of how the MHDT Atlantis pairs with the Ember.  Also which tube do you use in Atlantis.. I have an upgraded Havana and use the WE396a as my tube of choice. I am pretty happy overall but the Atlantis is tantalyzing


----------



## Luckbad

joespride said:


> Ok you are going to need to give us some details of how the MHDT Atlantis pairs with the Ember.  Also which tube do you use in Atlantis.. I have an upgraded Havana and use the WE396a as my tube of choice. I am pretty happy overall but the Atlantis is tantalyzing




It pairs incredibly well. The MHDT Labs Atlantis + Garage1217 Project Sunrise III was so good that I got a second Atlantis and an Ember II.

They're more musical/euphonic than the Audio-GD Master-11. While that combo is technically better with details etc. I sold it and now have two MHDT/Garage1217 stacks.

I'm using the Western Electric 396a / 2c51 D getter in the MHDT as well.


----------



## Luckbad

howie13 said:


> You really need a genuine 'Bad Boy'
> Other than him a FrankenJn 6F8G/6C8G, or a pair of 6L5G's should suit.



Do the Bad Boys have smooth/subdued treble?


----------



## Tunkejazz

Not really subdued. In my opinion it is more of a neutral signature but with some emphasis in the (sub)bass. It is not harsh or treeble emphasized in any case.

With my headphones the 6C8G seems more bassy and therefore the treeble is in comparison less present than with the Bad Boys.

The 6N6P was a bit too mellow/relaxed for my taste but I may have a bad quality one, who knows!


----------



## joespride

luckbad said:


> It pairs incredibly well. The MHDT Labs Atlantis + Garage1217 Project Sunrise III was so good that I got a second Atlantis and an Ember II.
> 
> They're more musical/euphonic than the Audio-GD Master-11. While that combo is technically better with details etc. I sold it and now have two MHDT/Garage1217 stacks.
> 
> I'm using the Western Electric 396a / 2c51 D getter in the MHDT as well.


 
 Thank you for that..............


----------



## nwavesailor

luckbad said:


> Got a link? I'm not seeing that tube type anywhere.
> 
> Do you mean 6J5G or 6V6G?


 

 Sorry.......... yes that is 6J5G


----------



## HOWIE13

luckbad said:


> Do the Bad Boys have smooth/subdued treble?


 
 I agree with Tunkejazz they are not subdued but sweet and don't attack my ears, even with loud violin solos. It's more like what you would hear in a live performance.
 There's plenty on the web about 'Bad Boys' less about the 6F8G/6C8G but I agree with Tunkejazz about those too.
 For me the 6N6P is too relaxed for most of my music-just occasionally I use it for mellow female vocal Jazz solos when invoking a smoky nightclub in the early hours, when everyone has left, you've poured your whisky, and there is just you, the soloist and a piano.


----------



## Luckbad

6C8G sounds cool. What's a good adapter for the Franken setup? Which 6C8G? National Union? Sylvania?

Thanks all!


----------



## HOWIE13

luckbad said:


> 6C8G sounds cool. What's a good adapter for the Franken setup? Which 6C8G? National Union? Sylvania?
> 
> Thanks all!


 
 FrankenJr, adapter is here:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-6F8G-6C8G-TO-ECC88-6922-6N6-6N11-tube-adapter-CNC-Copper-body-/191554107223?hash=item2c9983b757:g:j~4AAOSwstxVFUiM
  
  
 I have both RCA 6C8G and 6F8G. I find the 6C8G more neutral and smooth, the 6F8G has more at the bottom end, it's a bass strong tube in my system.


----------



## Luckbad

howie13 said:


> FrankenJr, adapter is here:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-6F8G-6C8G-TO-ECC88-6922-6N6-6N11-tube-adapter-CNC-Copper-body-/191554107223?hash=item2c9983b757:g:j~4AAOSwstxVFUiM


 
  
 Does FrankenJr only use one tube? That's cool.


----------



## HOWIE13

luckbad said:


> Does FrankenJr only use one tube? That's cool.


 
 HA- you replied before I had finished adding a bit more about the two types of tubes- please check above in case you missed that.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Yes, one tube as it's a dual triode. It looks like half of a FrankenEmber, that's why it's called* FrankenJr.*


----------



## ericr

howie13 said:


> You really need a genuine 'Bad Boy'
> Other than him a FrankenJn 6F8G/6C8G, or a pair of 6L5G's should suit.




... or a Sylvania 6SN7W!


----------



## jaywillin

anyone had a 6sn7 adapter introducing a ground loop hum ?
 i got an adapter from jeremy, and i have a significant hum with my 6sn7 tube, 
 and when i use it with the 7193 set up, its there to , but to a much lesser degree
 i can touch the capacitors and the hum goes away, touch the power supply, it almost goes away
 i've tried different outlets, and a 3 to 2 pronged adapter, nothing
 any ideas out there ??


----------



## BobMonkhouse

It's joy following this thread! The Ember is amazing and is a chameleon with the tubes rolling!
  
 For the last several days, I've been going back and forth between my Visseaux and the Adzam 6L5G pairs. The Visseaux are really something special - very well balanced, with great details and separation, seamless transition between frequencies, the instrument placement is well defined, don't sound thin. I feel their strongest quality is the bass, it's exactly as I like it with great dynamics, punchy but full bodied. Sometimes though, the upper mids / lower treble are a bit too hot and forward to me. This is probably due to the treble sensitivity of my Fidelio X2. I'm pretty sure, HD650 pair much better with the Visseaux.
  
 The Adzam 6L5G were a very pleasant surprise. I could see them become my favourite sounding tubes. Their overall signature reminds me my "so called" Sylvania Chrome Dome 6SN7GTB but with bigger soundstage and better separation. The highs are almost as detailed as the Visseaux. The bass has a great authority and natural decay without being too much in quantity. What I like the most is the mids - they sound very natural, soft and liquid. I've ordered another pair Raytheon 6L5G which looked the same on the picture.
  
 I want to try a few more Sylvania 6SN7 tubes - a true "Bad Boy" and maybe a couple of green and yellow labeled "Chrome Domed" tubes. If somebody has some of those for sale, PM me. 
  
 I'm expecting a bunch of 6CG7 tubes to arrive. I've read some preferred them to the 12AU7 tubes. Also, a Philips ECC189 tube is coming for a test. I was curious how their variable mu will affect the sound compared to 6DJ8.


----------



## Tunkejazz

luckbad said:


> 6C8G sounds cool. What's a good adapter for the Franken setup? Which 6C8G? National Union? Sylvania?
> 
> Thanks all!



I have a RCA 6C8G and a Raytheon 6F8G. The former has more bass, but the latter is faster/punchier in the lower end. Not a night and day difference. The RCA is cheaper  

EDIT: As HOWIE13 said, the RCA 6F8G probably will give you some more bass (as far as tubes can color the sound!).


----------



## Makiah S

joespride said:


> It will depend on which version of the 6j5 adapter you get, the 1 linked above appears to plug straight in with no 6sn7 adapter needed (clearance may or may not be an issue).  My 6j5 adapter is to 6sn7 and so I must use the 6sn7 adapter which means no clearance issues


 
 So joe! I got the tubes today and I have a problem... I don't have room for all these Tubes xD
  
 ehm, but I noticed they... don't have 8 pins? They have like 6 is that normal?


----------



## nwavesailor

mshenay said:


> _ehm, but I noticed they... don't have 8 pins? They have like 6 is that normal?_
> 
> Some of the 8 pins are nc (no connection) so there is no need to have all 8 pins in the tube if only 6 are in use.
> 
> You'll  find some with all 8 pins and others with less.


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> Some of the 8 pins are nc (no connection) so there is no need to have all 8 pins in the tube if only 6 are in use.
> 
> You'll  find some with all 8 pins and others with less.


 
 Ok just hoping I got the right adapter, pretty sure I did though still excited! I have like a dozen tubes to roll q.q


----------



## CZ4A

luckbad said:


> 6C8G sounds cool. What's a good adapter for the Franken setup? Which 6C8G? National Union? Sylvania?
> 
> Thanks all!


 
 I have five 6F8G/6C8Gs I've rolled in my Sunrise III, all different from each other.
  
 RCA 6F8G has good bass, but I find it to be a bit languid. It's good for more mellow, slower-tempo music.
  
 Raytheon 6F8G is quite analytical. Tunkejazz's impressions are accurate too.
  
 Ken-Rad 6C8G is all about presence. Superb bass from this one!
  
 Sylvania 6C8G is somewhere between the K-R and the Raytheon. A bit livelier than the Raytheon but not as in-your-face as the K-R.
  
 Tung-Sol Round Plate Black Glass 6F8G is essentially a RPBG 6SN7 in a bigger bottle and with a wider soundstage.
  
 I found a few reviews on Tube Maze too:
  
 http://www.tubemaze.info/tag/6f8g/
 http://www.tubemaze.info/ken-rad-6c8g-round-plates/
  
 The K-R is my favorite, followed by the T-S and the Raytheon. None are bad tubes, but some work better than others for different genres of music. One last thing I want to add is that I had some grounding issues when playing directly off my phone or music player instead of through a DAC. The issues manifested as a loud hum or buzz in the left channel. Running a grounding wire from the top of a capacitor to a metal object reduced the hum, but playing though a USB DAC works better.


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> Ok just hoping I got the right adapter, pretty sure I did though still excited! I have like a dozen tubes to roll q.q


 
 No need to be worrying. Just post the adapter you ordered and I'll be happy to let you know if it's the correct adapter.


----------



## d3rrlck

I'm fairly new to headfi but i've been following this thread for quite sometime. I have rolled quite a few tubes in my ember2, including 6L5G and 6J5G in dual adapter, both of which made my ember2 a marvelous hum generator. I've tried all sorts of grounding including running an extra wire from the ember chassis to the outlet ground which signigicantly reduced the hum but still audible enough to be noticeable. So I'm sharing this solution to my fellow ember users who are experiencing hum from some tubes. This solution works so well for me, it completely eliminated the hum and it shielded the ember2 from any form of EMI around the vicinity of my house.



Meet the ember2 in faraday cage. The cage is made from aluminum mesh which i bent in accordance to the ember2 dimension. The cage is grounded to the ember chasis. You'll be surprised how dead quiet the ember after installing the cage.


----------



## joespride

d3rrlck said:


> I'm fairly new to headfi but i've been following this thread for quite sometime. I have rolled quite a few tubes in my ember2, including 6L5G and 6J5G in dual adapter, both of which made my ember2 a marvelous hum generator. I've tried all sorts of grounding including running an extra wire from the ember chassis to the outlet ground which signigicantly reduced the hum but still audible enough to be noticeable. So I'm sharing this solution to my fellow ember users who are experiencing hum from some tubes. This solution works so well for me, it completely eliminated the hum and it shielded the ember2 from any form of EMI around the vicinity of my house.
> 
> 
> 
> Meet the ember2 in faraday cage. The cage is made from aluminum mesh which i bent in accordance to the ember2 dimension. The cage is grounded to the ember chasis. You'll be surprised how dead quiet the ember after installing the cage.


 
 Thats a cool solution thanks for posting it, can you say where you obtained the Aluminum mesh is there a link ??


----------



## jaywillin

d3rrlck said:


> I'm fairly new to headfi but i've been following this thread for quite sometime. I have rolled quite a few tubes in my ember2, including 6L5G and 6J5G in dual adapter, both of which made my ember2 a marvelous hum generator. I've tried all sorts of grounding including running an extra wire from the ember chassis to the outlet ground which signigicantly reduced the hum but still audible enough to be noticeable. So I'm sharing this solution to my fellow ember users who are experiencing hum from some tubes. This solution works so well for me, it completely eliminated the hum and it shielded the ember2 from any form of EMI around the vicinity of my house.
> 
> 
> 
> Meet the ember2 in faraday cage. The cage is made from aluminum mesh which i bent in accordance to the ember2 dimension. The cage is grounded to the ember chasis. You'll be surprised how dead quiet the ember after installing the cage.


 
  
 i have a project sunrise that i just got a 6sn7 adapter for, and when i use it with a 6sn7 tube, i have a terrible hum, i haven't been able to get rid of it, i may give this a try, thanks !


----------



## d3rrlck

@joespride
  
 I got it from amazon. You'll also need a Tin Snips to cut the mesh. The aluminum is soft enough, I just used my hand plus a flat wooden table (as my work area) to bend it 
  
http://www.amazon.com/CCG-Perforated-Grill-Mesh-Sheet/dp/B00F3FJYSQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1456077473&sr=8-4&keywords=aluminum+mesh


----------



## d3rrlck

@ joespride and @ jaywillin
  
 You can can get the aluminum mesh from amazon. The dimension is 6x36". I got mine from customcargrill (sorry I'm not allowed to post a link yet).
  
 You can also do this temporary solution by wrapping the tube with aluminum foil (take note the foil should be grounded to the chasis) while waiting for your aluminum mesh which I call the mummified ember. I know it doesn't look pretty but it works too


----------



## HOWIE13

d3rrlck said:


> @ joespride and @ jaywillin
> 
> You can can get the aluminum mesh from amazon. The dimension is 6x36". I got mine from customcargrill (sorry I'm not allowed to post a link yet).
> 
> You can also do this temporary solution by wrapping the tube with aluminum foil (take note the foil should be grounded to the chasis) while waiting for your aluminum mesh which I call the mummified ember. I know it doesn't look pretty but it works too


 
 Would you mind me asking how you ground the aluminium foil to the chassis?  Do you just wrap it round something metal on the chassis?  I have the perspex chassis.
 Thanks.


----------



## d3rrlck

@HOWIE13

A copper wire will do, you can coil It to one of the thumbscrew. As for the other end, I made a halo-like shape for single tube or number 8 shape for dual tube and place it on top of each tube.


----------



## HOWIE13

d3rrlck said:


> @HOWIE13
> 
> A copper wire will do, you can coil It to one of the thumbscrew. As for the other end, I made a halo-like shape for single tube or number 8 shape for dual tube and place it on top of each tube.





> Excellent-that's very helpful. I don't get much in the way of hums with most headphones but my X2 and HD598 can be a problem.


----------



## HOWIE13

Found it!
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Small-Diamond-Grill-Mesh-Sheet/dp/B00F3FJU6C/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1456082256&sr=8-2-spell&keywords=ALUMINIUM+MESH+CUSTOM+CAR+GRILL


----------



## joespride

d3rrlck said:


> @ joespride and @ jaywillin
> 
> You can can get the aluminum mesh from amazon. The dimension is 6x36". I got mine from customcargrill (sorry I'm not allowed to post a link yet).
> 
> You can also do this temporary solution by wrapping the tube with aluminum foil (take note the foil should be grounded to the chasis) while waiting for your aluminum mesh which I call the mummified ember. I know it doesn't look pretty but it works too


 
 is this the right stuff
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Small-Diamond-Grill-Mesh-Sheet/dp/B00F3FJU6C/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1456085999&sr=1-2&refinements=p_4%3Acustomcargrills+llc


----------



## jaywillin

d3rrlck said:


> @ joespride and @ jaywillin
> 
> You can can get the aluminum mesh from amazon. The dimension is 6x36". I got mine from customcargrill (sorry I'm not allowed to post a link yet).
> 
> You can also do this temporary solution by wrapping the tube with aluminum foil (take note the foil should be grounded to the chasis) while waiting for your aluminum mesh which I call the mummified ember. I know it doesn't look pretty but it works too


 
 well, tried the aluminum foil wrap, worked liked a charm for 20-30 seconds, dead silent,  the hum creeped back in, hmmmmm


----------



## d3rrlck

@ joespride

Some of the aluminum mesh has raw thickness of .03 inch. This might be too thin and soft. I'm using the one with the hex pattern which is .06 inch thick.


----------



## joespride

http://www.amazon.com/CCG-Perforated-Grill-Mesh-Sheet/dp/B00F3FJYSQ/ref=lp_10148252011_1_3?srs=10148252011&ie=UTF8&qid=1456090292&sr=8-3
  
  
 this one then


----------



## Tunkejazz

Amazon won't deliver that mesh to Sweden. But a Faraday cage can be made of any mesh made of metal. Thanks for the info!


----------



## DecentLevi

@d3rrlck I'd like to give you a hearty welcome to this thread! Your post on the DIY buzz reduction / Mummified Ember was exemplary! If this tests well with other Ember's (and I'm sure it will), then by golly this is going to be nothing short of the ultimate buzzkill 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  A buzz-free revolution where us tube owners no have to rely on asinine methods such as running a thick wire into the bathroom our out the window, electrical rewiring, inline limiters, etc.
  
 Was this your own idea? If so, I really think we owe you a reward of some kind. Your reputation is off to a great start on this site! 
  
 Can't wait to see someone else test it out, and if all goes well I'll be on board too.


----------



## Luckbad

Rolled in a new production Electro-Harmonix 6H30Pi Gold Pin last night in the Ember and it sounded great. 

Picked up a pair of RCA 6SN7 smoked glass locally and those sound great as well.

Now I have a Horizon on the way to compare.

The winner is my home amp, loser goes back to Jeremy unless someone wants to buy it off me and I can avoid a restocking fee while saving someone else a few bucks.


----------



## nwavesailor

This isn't meant to cast a bad light on this amp, but Is the Ember particularly 'hum' prone vs. some other small headphone tube amps or is it tube / tube adapter dependent?
  
 After reading several posts over the past few months it seems to be an ongoing or recurrent theme. I do understand that grounding and ground loop issues can tough to resolve and the Faraday cage may be one of the answerts!


----------



## DecentLevi

As far as I understand, the Ember with stock tubes is 100% hum free / silent. The buzz seems to be entirely the result of the our tube experimentation; some being louder than others, even if they are the exact same type of tube from the same factory; and it seems there is no explanation yet


----------



## Luckbad

It has nothing to do with Garage1217 stuff. It happens with all tube amps. 

Tubes were designed before cell phones, WiFi, Bluetooth, infrared remotes, and all manner of other technology that can interfere. 

We also use far more power than anyone ever did back in those days, further complicating issues. I doubt many people in the 40s had power spikes when they used their microwaves.


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> As far as I understand, the Ember with stock tubes is 100% hum free / silent. The buzz seems to be entirely the result of the our tube experimentation; some being louder than others, even if they are the exact same type of tube from the same factory; and it seems there is no explanation yet


 

 Thanks, Levi!
  
 I wasn't trying to get folks upset, just wondering if it was the "exotic" (for lack of a better word) tubes that are being tried..........and I ,for one, really LOVE the Visseaux 6J5G w/ adapter!!!


----------



## joespride

My Ember is quiet, My 6j5 adapter is quiet with the right tubes the Visseaux are very quiet


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> My Ember is quiet, My 6j5 adapter is quiet with the right tubes the Visseaux are very quiet


 

 Good to hear, joespride! 
  
 My current pair of Visseaux 6J5G are a bit microphonic (but then again, all tubes are to one degree or another!)...................but no buzz, hum, pinging or tube 'rush' sound.
  
 Here's hoping my next pair of Visseaux are as well behaved as this pair!


----------



## d3rrlck

decentlevi said:


> @d3rrlck I'd like to give you a hearty welcome to this thread! Your post on the DIY buzz reduction / Mummified Ember was exemplary! If this tests well with other Ember's (and I'm sure it will), then by golly this is going to be nothing short of the ultimate buzzkill
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks DecentLevi! I bought my Ember2 last December 2015, and kinda started with 6SN7 tubes. The ember2 is actually my very first tube amp, after a long time user of SS amp.It was only last month (January 2016) when I decided to get the 6L5G and 6J5G after reading so much positive review here so thanks to you guys for actively posting in this thread which is very helpful for newbie like me to discover the wonderful sound of tube amp 
  
 When I got the 6L5G / 6J5G along with the adapter, I was caught by surprised by the hum / buzzing sound which is kinda unexpected. I was also puzzled that I'm only experiencing the hum / buzzing sound on dual tube setup, the ember2 is dead quiet on stock tube and a couple of 6SN7 tubes that I rolled previously. The hum / buzzing sound is more like a 60Hz buzz which is pretty loud on my ember2. As mentioned in my first post, I tried all sorts of grounding which significantly reduced the buzzing sound but there is still a faint hum which is noticeable enough to annoy me. I ran out of idea on how to eliminate the hum so I consulted with Jeremy of Garage1217, in which he told me this:
  
 "The 60hz hum is likely due to the large tubes and adapter acting like an antenna. No real workaround for this. A good quality linear supply like the one we will be releasing soon will probably help with this as 60hz hum would be coming from electronics / mains and other transformers in the vicinity"
  
 So this led me to googling about "EMI shielding" in which I learned about the Faraday cage. So to test this solution on ember, I started with aluminum foil which I eventually replaced with aluminum mesh cage (because I could not stand the look of the aluminum foil lol)


----------



## CZ4A

d3rrlck said:


> So this led me to googling about "EMI shielding" in which I learned about the Faraday cage. So to test this solution on ember, I started with aluminum foil which I eventually replaced with aluminum mesh cage (because I could not stand the look of the aluminum foil lol)


 
 That picture makes it look like you are baking a couple of potatoes with your amp!


----------



## d3rrlck

^ Hahah A friend said the same thing to me lol


----------



## DecentLevi

Well I for one prefer the simplicity of the foil solution to the 'jail' solution. @d3rrlck, would you say the foil solution was able to minimuze the buzz as well as the jail solution? (assuming each solution in their best setup). If not, how much better/worse was the result with the foil solution, audibly?
  
@jaywillin you said you tried the foil solution. But was it done the same way as the photo above? If not, would you mind revisiting that to try again - see if maybe it lasts longer than 30 seconds? (notice that wire also); of which can also be connected to one of several other areas including the top of capacitors, RCA jacks or the negative power connection.


----------



## d3rrlck

decentlevi said:


> Well I for one prefer the simplicity of the foil solution to the 'jail' solution. @d3rrlck, would you say the foil solution was able to minimuze the buzz as well as the jail solution? (assuming each solution in their best setup). If not, how much better/worse was the result with the foil solution, audibly?


 
  
 To get the same benefit from jail solution, you will need to wrap the tube all the way down to the base of the adapter to completely shield it from EMI. Just make sure that the foil should not touch any of the solder points in the adapter as this could introduce a short. If you want a complete shielding, I would highly suggest to diy a Faraday cage. I also noticed with dual tube setup that it tends to pickup noises from my wifi router, and cellphone. If you heard a noisy USB source from laptop, it sounds similar to that (like a morse code beep in rapid succession). The faraday cage will also shield / eliminate those noises.


----------



## Luckbad

There's so much WiFi and cell noise at work I had to set aside multiple tubes and buy the CNC chassis to largely avoid the issue.

But the Faraday cage looks ridiculous and isn't something I'd consider at work.

Maybe at home of my favorite tube sonically is susceptible.


----------



## Makiah S

Oh duh I totally forgot about this! I used to have issues with hum on both my Solid State and Tube amps back in the day, as of now I have a Power Conditioner all of my Amps and sources are hooked up to and I don't use wifi in my room. It's all Ethernet. Granted I keep my phone like 10feet from my tubes, though every now and again if I touch my amp while it's running, I can hear noise from the TV Tuner in my Monitor :/ which is strange
  
 but other wise, when I remove my self as the BIG attena I don't get to much noise [at least not in the starlight, gawd the freaking Vali 2 was like a noise\hum magnet] and it was encased 
  
 also good news guys! My dual 76Tube Adapter arrived in the States yesterday  I might have it by Tuesday! [maybe]


----------



## jaywillin

decentlevi said:


> Well I for one prefer the simplicity of the foil solution to the 'jail' solution. @d3rrlck, would you say the foil solution was able to minimuze the buzz as well as the jail solution? (assuming each solution in their best setup). If not, how much better/worse was the result with the foil solution, audibly?
> 
> @jaywillin you said you tried the foil solution. But was it done the same way as the photo above? If not, would you mind revisiting that to try again - see if maybe it lasts longer than 30 seconds? (notice that wire also); of which can also be connected to one of several other areas including the top of capacitors, RCA jacks or the negative power connection.


 
 my attempt at mummification was hurried, i'll make a better, more thorough attempt today


----------



## Demo3

Thanks for you guys continued work on the buzzing Ember.  Since I have gotten my Ether C I have been amazed at the sound quality of the amp.  But unfortunately the sound quality of the buzz was increased as well.


----------



## Makiah S

demo3 said:


> Thanks for you guys continued work on the buzzing Ember.  Sense I have gotten my Ether C I have been amazed at the sound quality of the amp.  But unfortunately the sound quality of the buzz was increased as well.


 
 yea my ATH bESP 10 is like that, it has a touch of buzz with my Starlight.


----------



## jaywillin

10 minutes, silencio , it ain't pretty, but its working
  

  
 bobtailed


----------



## BobMonkhouse

Thanks for all EMI screening info! I'll try these remedies as well.
  
 The hum on my Ember 2 is also more prominent with the dual tube setup. I reduced it by switching the impedance from low to medium but it's still noticeable with my relatively sensitive Fidelio X2.
  
 Edit: I was wondering if a Faraday cage would be as efficient if it doesn't cover the whole amp to the bottom but ends attached to the mounting screws on the top plate?


----------



## Luckbad

We need to come up with a fun name for the foil method...
  
 Buzzkill?
  
 Tube Condom?
  
 Hummer Bummer?
  
 The Foiler?
  
 Faraday Foil Fizzler?
  
 If you do that to your tube, does that mean you've joined the Pen 15 club?


----------



## BobMonkhouse

H(u)m!...


----------



## d3rrlck

jaywillin said:


> 10 minutes, silencio , it ain't pretty, but its working
> 
> 
> 
> bobtailed


 
  
  
 Glad that it worked for you too


----------



## joespride

2nd pair of Matched Visseaux in the house and making MUSIC
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Brimar here as well will give them a twirl after the Visseaux have had some time to play,  the Brimar have the dimpled foil getters and solid round plates while the Visseaux have the square D getter with the perforated round plates.  It will be interesting to see if I can hear any differences


----------



## d3rrlck

bobmonkhouse said:


> Thanks for all EMI screening info! I'll try these remedies as well.
> 
> The hum on my Ember 2 is also more prominent with the dual tube setup. I reduced it by switching the impedance from low to medium but it's still noticeable with my relatively sensitive Fidelio X2.
> 
> Edit: I was wondering if a Faraday cage would be as efficient if it doesn't cover the whole amp to the bottom but ends attached to the mounting screws on the top plate?


 
  
 If you're only experiencing hum, I think you can create a Faraday cage that only covers the tubes. With the ember being an open design, I prefer jailing the whole amp to completely shield t from EMI, as mine is on the bedroom side table sitting next to a wifi/router


----------



## joespride

d3rrlck said:


> Glad that it worked for you too


 
 I think I am seeing a pattern with the hum / noise,  It appears most of the noise issues are plaguing the Acrylic top Ember ??  anyone else noticing this ?


----------



## d3rrlck

joespride said:


> 2nd pair of Matched Visseaux in the house and making MUSIC
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Can't wait for your impression, as I'm interested in that Brimar 6J5G as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Where are you guys getting a matched pair of Visseaux? I can't seem to find an affordable one


----------



## Astral Abyss

Concerning EMI, induced hum, grounding issues, etc... I'd much rather use a tube that didn't induce hum instead of trying to figure out elaborate schemes to reduce/eliminate the hum.  
  
 My hum story started with a Franken Jr adapter and Raytheon 6F8G.  Excellent sounding tube, but the grounding wire on top picked up noise from my Modi 2U and Wyrd sitting next to it, which manifested as a hum in the left channel.  I could put my hand in between the equipment and change the volume and pitch of the hum.  My solution was just to use a different setup.  My Franken Ember with the Visseaux's 6J5s, even with the dual adapter stack, makes no noise at all.


----------



## jaywillin

astral abyss said:


> Concerning EMI, induced hum, grounding issues, etc...* I'd much rather use a tube that didn't induce hum instead of trying to figure out elaborate schemes to reduce/eliminate the hum*.
> 
> My hum story started with a Franken Jr adapter and Raytheon 6F8G.  Excellent sounding tube, but the grounding wire on top picked up noise from my Modi 2U and Wyrd sitting next to it, which manifested as a hum in the left channel.  I could put my hand in between the equipment and change the volume and pitch of the hum.  My solution was just to use a different setup.  My Franken Ember with the Visseaux's 6J5s, even with the dual adapter stack, makes no noise at all.


 
 i agree, which brings me to two questions
 1- would just trying another 6sn7 make any difference, as in, would it be just the particular tube i have, or tube type ?
 2- with my "frankenrise" i have no noise, other a barely audible with no music playing, it's more of a buzz (emi/rfi ?) than the hum i was getting with the 6sn7 
  
 the "frankenrise"


----------



## joespride

d3rrlck said:


> Can't wait for your impression, as I'm interested in that Brimar 6J5G as well
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well the Brimars are in and singing currently, BUT they pick up noise that the Visseaux dont (Damn it) wave my hand over them and the hum is drastically reduced, just lay a piece of aluminum foil over the tubes in a tent type shape allowing the back side of the tent to touch the thumb screws NO HUM (looks like I will be building a cage)
  
 Sound compared to Visseaux ?  CAVEAT: (Any differences are nuance with my hearing),  Not as clear extended on top as the Visseaux, midrange is close, bass Brimar gets a minor edge,  Brimar may sound a bit more closed in.  I like them very much.  with out the Visseaux I would not feel like I was missing anything
  
 Judgement= Visseaux is still King by the slightest of margins, I seriously doubt I could pick which is which in a blind test


----------



## joespride

astral abyss said:


> Concerning EMI, induced hum, grounding issues, etc... I'd much rather use a tube that didn't induce hum instead of trying to figure out elaborate schemes to reduce/eliminate the hum.
> 
> My hum story started with a Franken Jr adapter and Raytheon 6F8G.  Excellent sounding tube, but the grounding wire on top picked up noise from my Modi 2U and Wyrd sitting next to it, which manifested as a hum in the left channel.  I could put my hand in between the equipment and change the volume and pitch of the hum.  My solution was just to use a different setup.  My Franken Ember with the Visseaux's 6J5s, even with the dual adapter stack, makes no noise at all.


 
 While I may tend to agree you will certainly limit your options and likely loose out on a superior sounding setup............There is no guarantee any tube will not develop a noise issue depending on enviroment, My Visseaux sound great with no hum but in the right enviroment they could develop noise.  The cage is easy enough and cheap enough it seems a good solution, I would also bet a pretty one could be made for cheap


----------



## CZ4A

astral abyss said:


> Concerning EMI, induced hum, grounding issues, etc... I'd much rather use a tube that didn't induce hum instead of trying to figure out elaborate schemes to reduce/eliminate the hum.
> 
> My hum story started with a Franken Jr adapter and Raytheon 6F8G.  Excellent sounding tube, but the grounding wire on top picked up noise from my Modi 2U and Wyrd sitting next to it, which manifested as a hum in the left channel.  I could put my hand in between the equipment and change the volume and pitch of the hum.  My solution was just to use a different setup.  My Franken Ember with the Visseaux's 6J5s, even with the dual adapter stack, makes no noise at all.


 
 I find it odd that it is still humming so loudly when it's plugged into a DAC. When I hook up a phone or music player with a RCA to 3.5mm splitter (and a well-shielded one at that), I get an incredibly annoying hum in my Franken-rise Jr. However, if I connect it to my recapped el-cheapo Behringer UCA222, which is in turn plugged into my PC, the hum is almost totally gone. It's still there in the left channel, but not nearly loud enough to be a problem. That said, I haven't tried using a 6C8G/6F8G in a high EMI/RFI environment like work. At work I currently use either a Amperex globe 6DJ8 or a T-S 6SN7WGTA in my Sunrise, both of which are among my quietest tubes.
  
 I also can't help but wonder if the open chassis is a contributing factor. My APPJ PA1502A is nearly silent, even with tubes that would be noisy in the Sunrise. It has an internal power supply with a standard 3-prong PC power cord, so it's most likely grounded better too. I haven't brought that amp to work, though- still trying to find a magic combination.


----------



## Astral Abyss

joespride said:


> While I may tend to agree you will certainly limit your options and likely loose out on a superior sounding setup............There is no guarantee any tube will not develop a noise issue depending on enviroment, My Visseaux sound great with no hum but in the right enviroment they could develop noise.  The cage is easy enough and cheap enough it seems a good solution, I would also bet a pretty one could be made for cheap


 
  
 It's true, but I have so many tubes that don't have any noise, seems silly to put tons of effort into fixing 1 or 2 noisy tubes.  If I was running into issues with every tube, well, yeah that's a whole other problem that may require more drastic measures.  I can't help but notice this didn't seem to be a problem for most people until the subject of noise came up.


----------



## Makiah S

joespride said:


> I think I am seeing a pattern with the hum / noise,  It appears most of the noise issues are plaguing the Acrylic top Ember ??  anyone else noticing this ?


 
 yea you might b onto something, I have the Metal Topped Starlight my self, and very little noise


----------



## Luckbad

How about ESD containers or making a nice wooden box lined with anti-static bag material?

Something along these lines. You could drill holes for the volume pot and headphone jack.

Sovella 1520-4ESD Treston ESD Polypropylene Stacking Bin, 25 lbs Capacity, 5.87" Width x 4.13" Height x 7.56" Depth, Black https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AR1HM9Y/

Note that I didn't check dimensions or anything. On my phone.


----------



## Astral Abyss

It is pretty cool that folks are experimenting like this. I don't want to come off as ungrateful. If it weren't for experimentation I'd never have gotten these wonderful Visseaux tubes you guys discovered.

We're so far outside the norm for this amp it's not surprising we have some issues. Can't really expect to build the equivalent of a radio antenna on top of our amps and not pick up a bit of noise. Hell, might even be a market for a nice cage if one of you has the desire to build more.


----------



## d3rrlck

joespride said:


> Well the Brimars are in and singing currently, BUT they pick up noise that the Visseaux dont (Damn it) wave my hand over them and the hum is drastically reduced, just lay a piece of aluminum foil over the tubes in a tent type shape allowing the back side of the tent to touch the thumb screws NO HUM (looks like I will be building a cage)
> 
> Sound compared to Visseaux ?  CAVEAT: (Any differences are nuance with my hearing),  Not as clear extended on top as the Visseaux, midrange is close, bass Brimar gets a minor edge,  Brimar may sound a bit more closed in.  I like them very much.  with out the Visseaux I would not feel like I was missing anything
> 
> Judgement= Visseaux is still King by the slightest of margins, I seriously doubt I could pick which is which in a blind test


 
  
 Thanks @joespride 
 Looks like I'm going to stick with Visseaus 6J5G then 
  
 I might get a backup pair soon. By the way, is there any difference between a Visseaux labeled as 6J5G/VT-94A vs. 6J5G/6J5GT?


----------



## d3rrlck

astral abyss said:


> It is pretty cool that folks are experimenting like this. I don't want to come off as ungrateful. If it weren't for experimentation I'd never have gotten these wonderful Visseaux tubes you guys discovered.
> 
> We're so far outside the norm for this amp it's not surprising we have some issues. Can't really expect to build the equivalent of a radio antenna on top of our amps and not pick up a bit of noise. Hell, might even be a market for a nice cage if one of you has the desire to build more.


 
  
 I for one would like to hear the Visseaux 6J5G hum free. This tube is too good to pass on that I felt the need to do something about the hum, and so I'm glad I've found a solution. Consider the cage as tube protector too


----------



## Luckbad

Anyone else with HD650s find the upper bass to get a touch boomy with high output resistance?
  
 The good news is that swapping it to Low or even Medium completely fixes it!
  
 The change is more pronounced than I remember it being the first time I tried the Ember. Different tubes, different dac. The first time around I had a much cheaper dac feeding it and I couldn't even tell a difference between the Low/Med/High output resistance settings.
  
 Now it's super obvious.
  
 Output power into 300Ω
 Output Resistance:

.1R: 765mW
35R: 600 mW
120R: 390mW
  
 I guess it makes a bigger difference than I realized.


----------



## Astral Abyss

luckbad said:


> Anyone else with HD650s find the upper bass to get a touch boomy with high output resistance?
> 
> The good news is that swapping it to Low or even Medium completely fixes it!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Damping factor of less than 3 on high would explain the flabby bass.  Output voltage from the DAC could be a factor as well.
  
 HD650 with medium resistance is blissful.  In fact, I prefer using the HD650, over any of my other headphones, when paired with the Ember.


----------



## connieflyer

I have always used the .1 setting with the 650's, I am now using the Sen 700's and putting the 650's up for sale, as they don't get the use anymore.   I have never had hum or noise problems, and I have one of the original Embers, serial number 0041, built by Jeremy.  The only time I had a problem was with the 7193's being a little microphonic, if I hit my desk or pushed in the keyboard tray a little hard, I could here it.  Putting it on isolator feet solved that, could smack desk with fist, no problem.  The Visses I sold to Joespride, never gave me any problem, or any of the other tubes, so I wonder if it is endemic to individual, amps, or the newer Ember 2.  I had Jeremy build mine, because, at that time, the add said he cherry picked components, and fully tested amp. I also have the cnc metal top and bottom plate.  Could also be the power grid to some extent.  I am up in Michigan, and never had a problem with noise on electric grid.  When I was in Tennessee, did experience some problems. If it is 60hz hum, I would look to making sure house system is properly grounded,


----------



## TraceStar

Using an acrylic Ember 2 and I have no problem with humming or buzzing with any tube. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## nwavesailor

nwavesailor said:


> Seen near my home on at Interstate on ramp:
> 
> WILL WORK FOR *VISSEAUX 6J5G TUBES!!!*
> 
> ...


 

 A BIG thank you to Paul for sending his pair of Visseaux 6J5's my way! Test great, tightly matched, less microphnoic than my original pair and............. they sound SPECTACULAR!
  
 I now have a primary pair and backup................. so I'm set.


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Well the Brimars are in and singing currently, BUT they pick up noise that the Visseaux dont (Damn it) wave my hand over them and the hum is drastically reduced, just lay a piece of aluminum foil over the tubes in a tent type shape allowing the back side of the tent to touch the thumb screws NO HUM (looks like I will be building a cage)
> 
> Sound compared to Visseaux ?  CAVEAT: (Any differences are nuance with my hearing),  Not as clear extended on top as the Visseaux, midrange is close, bass Brimar gets a minor edge,  Brimar may sound a bit more closed in.  I like them very much.  with out the Visseaux I would not feel like I was missing anything
> 
> Judgement= Visseaux is still King by the slightest of margins, I seriously doubt I could pick which is which in a blind test


 

 I concur with joespride regarding the 1950's Brimar 6J5G's sound. If I had never heard the Visseaux 6J5G's, I'd be thrilled with the Brimars................BUT I have......... and the 'V's are still a good deal better. I went back and forth many times and always found a just a little more "sumpin, sumpin" going on in the Visseaux. I have pretty humble headphones (HE 400S) and with these cans I am looking for more detail. With the 'V's I get that, but not at the expense of losing the sweet mid and good bass as well. The Brimars were very pleasant but just a little too polite and rolled off for me, at least with these HifiMan hp.
  
 If you have bright or very detailed hp, then the 1950's Brimar 6J5G's may be the perfect tubes for you!


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> I concur with joespride regarding the 1950's Brimar 6J5G's sound. If I had never heard the Visseaux 6J5G's, I'd be thrilled with the Brimars................BUT I have......... and the 'V's are still a good deal better. I went back and forth many times and always found a just a little more "sumpin, sumpin" going on in the Visseaux. I have pretty humble headphones (HE 400S) and with these cans I am looking for more detail. With the 'V's I get that, but not at the expense of losing the sweet mid and good bass as well. The Brimars were very pleasant but just a little too polite and rolled off for me, at least with these HifiMan hp.
> 
> If you have bright or very detailed hp, then the 1950's Brimar 6J5G's may be the perfect tubes for you!


 
 price wise what would you want for them? my La D5k is pretty Bright on the top end, mids are taken back nicely


----------



## nwavesailor

mshenay said:


> price wise what would you want for them? my La D5k is pretty Bright on the top end, mids are taken back nicely


 
 I_ returned them, but the cost was $119/ pair. They were VERY tightly matched and crazy high testing on both of my testers. Great tubes and I'd keep them if I didn't have (now) 2 pairs of the Visseaux 6J5G's!_


----------



## DecentLevi

@jaywillin much obliged for takin' my advice and givin' that Tinber one more try! Has the hum been at bay for more than 10 minutes? And is this completely eliminating the hum?
 ('_*Tinber* was just a cheap bid for a nickname for the *tin* foil on Em*ber* as an EMI shield_)
  
 Nwavesailor congrats on securing a 2nd pair of Visseaux's - long live the undisputed champion for Ember.
  
 Everyone else - I'm still interested to see how the Zenith 6J5 compare to the Visseaux. At least one member said they are comparable. But unless someone gets a pair who already has the Visseaux to compare them to, I guess we won't know how they compare directly... perhaps one of us Visseaux owners who are feeling a bit adventurous can also order the Zenith for comparison - then sell them off to another member if they choose


----------



## jaywillin

decentlevi said:


> @jaywillin much obliged for takin' my advice and givin' that Tinber one more try!* Has the hum been at bay for more than 10 minutes? And is this completely eliminating the hum*?
> ('_*Tinber* was just a cheap bid for a nickname for the *tin* foil on Em*ber* as an EMI shield_)
> 
> Nwavesailor congrats on securing a 2nd pair of Visseaux's - long live the undisputed champion for Ember.
> ...


 
 yes, works perfectly, the real hassle though is having to ground to the top of the capacitor as well, i also tried a "coke can" shield, it work, though not quite as well, the hum would creep in 
 eventually. 
 i'm going to hit the home depot, and keep tinkering around, 
  
 oh, and one of my earlier questions was regarding the 6sn7 tube in general, would i have that problem with ALL 6sn7 tubes, or could it be the particular one i have ?


----------



## joespride

Experimenting in my setup, I found the reason my Brimar were hum prone,  My PS4 is setting next to my amp and the closer I move the amp to the HDMI cable the goes from PS4 to TV the louder the hum gets.  Next I will wrap the HDMI cable with foil and see what happens
  
  
  
 Shielding the HDMI cable does nothing to help eliminate the hum on the Brimars


----------



## Astral Abyss

jaywillin said:


> yes, works perfectly, the real hassle though is having to ground to the top of the capacitor as well, i also tried a "coke can" shield, it work, though not quite as well, the hum would creep in
> eventually.
> i'm going to hit the home depot, and keep tinkering around,
> 
> oh, and one of my earlier questions was regarding the 6sn7 tube in general, would i have that problem with ALL 6sn7 tubes, or could it be the particular one i have ?


 
  
 Depends on the type of interference you're picking up.  If it's bad enough, I'd expect to affect everything, but at that point I'd be looking into what's causing it, versus masking it.  I *only* get a hum with my 6F8G Raytheon tube and adapter.  It might even just be the adapter.


----------



## jaywillin

astral abyss said:


> Depends on the type of interference you're picking up.  If it's bad enough, I'd expect to affect everything, but at that point I'd be looking into what's causing it, versus masking it.  I *only* get a hum with my 6F8G Raytheon tube and adapter.  It might even just be the adapter.


 
 what seems weird to me, is the dual 7193 set up, very little, if any noise


----------



## d3rrlck

jaywillin said:


> what seems weird to me, is the dual 7193 set up, very little, if any noise


 
  
 To tell the whole story about my experience is, I went as far as turning off the circuit breaker so that only 1 AC line is active in my house. I also turned off all the appliances and electronic devices (including the wifi/router and my cellphone), I also bought a second adapter thinking it could be the adapter, and I've tried all the AC outlet in my house but still, the dual tube setup is still humming like crazy loud on my ember2. What weird is that I don't get a hum on single tube, and I've tried a couple of K-R and GE tubes but they're completely silent. I agree that if you could find the source of the hum and interference is a much better approach but I live in an apartment building, so it could be my AC lines are poorly grounded and/or my neighbor is causing it, both are no longer in my control. Indeed a mystery yet to solve.


----------



## jaywillin

d3rrlck said:


> To tell the whole story about my experience is, I went as far as turning off the circuit breaker so that only 1 AC line is active in my house. I also turned off all the appliances and electronic devices (including the wifi/router and my cellphone), I also bought a second adapter thinking it could be the adapter, and I've tried all the AC outlet in my house but still, the dual tube setup is still humming like crazy loud on my ember2. What weird is that I don't get a hum on single tube, and I've tried a couple of K-R and GE tubes but they're completely silent. I agree that if you could find the source of the hum and interference is a much better approach but I live in an apartment building, so it could be my AC lines are poorly grounded and/or my neighbor is causing it, both are no longer in my control. Indeed a mystery yet to solve.


 
  
 our house is an older house, and the previous owners must have done a lot of their wiring, it's a little screwy, we've had it checked out, we are safe, but one day, we should have a lot of stuff corrected.
  
 yes, this is a campbell's soup can

 dead quiet


----------



## Demo3

I feel a soup can label contest coming...


----------



## joespride

My tube rolling is over,  I have 2 matched pair of Visseaux and 1 pair straight glass sylvania that should last longer than I will.


----------



## jaywillin

i may have to try different brands of soups, or maybe chili, there may be audible differences


----------



## d3rrlck

jaywillin said:


> our house is an older house, and the previous owners must have done a lot of their wiring, it's a little screwy, we've had it checked out, we are safe, but one day, we should have a lot of stuff corrected.
> 
> yes, this is a campbell's soup can
> 
> dead quiet


 
  
  
 Is that tube still breathing? It might die from heat and suffocation


----------



## jaywillin

d3rrlck said:


> Is that tube still breathing? It might die from heat and suffocation


 
 so far, but some holes might be in order , or cut the top off, 
 i went to home depot, couldn't find any aluminum or copper mesh, all they had was regular hardware mesh, i guess it's galvanised steel ? 
 i guess i'll order the mesh off amazon, so, copper, or aluminum ? any difference ? i like the look of copper


----------



## d3rrlck

^ I'm not really sure but I think as long as the mesh is conductive it will be fine


----------



## jaywillin

d3rrlck said:


> ^ I'm not really sure but I think as long as the mesh is conductive it will be fine


 
 that was the impression i got from my internet research.


----------



## nykobing

astral abyss said:


> Depends on the type of interference you're picking up.  If it's bad enough, I'd expect to affect everything, but at that point I'd be looking into what's causing it, versus masking it.  I *only* get a hum with my 6F8G Raytheon tube and adapter.  It might even just be the adapter.


 
  
 I have a Raytheon 6F8G that hums in my bottlehead crack and is perfectly quiet in my ember, using the same adapter in both amps. Strange how this stuff works.


----------



## DaemonSire

jaywillin said:


> our house is an older house, and the previous owners must have done a lot of their wiring, it's a little screwy, we've had it checked out, we are safe, but one day, we should have a lot of stuff corrected.
> 
> yes, this is a campbell's soup can
> 
> dead quiet


 
  
 Just a thought but the aluminum chassis may quiet some things down for you too.


----------



## jaywillin

daemonsire said:


> Just a thought but the aluminum chassis may quiet some things down for you too.



I thought about that myself, I'll probably pick the plates up soon


----------



## Luckbad

jaywillin said:


> I thought about that myself, I'll probably pick the plates up soon


 
  
 I grabbed a CNC chassis for my Sunrise in hops that it would quiet down the interference (Wi-Fi and cell) with my Raytheon JAN CK 5814WA tube and it absolutely worked. But now it's not my preferred tube (currently enjoying Russian 6N6P/6H6Pi).


----------



## Demo3

I went aluminum chasse on my Ember and still had the buzz when in the Franken Ember setup.  I installed the temporary tin foil upgrade last night on the Franken and the buzz was completely gone.    I then listened to "*Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" *with my Ether Cs and was completely blown away.


----------



## Makiah S

Well the 76's arrived and they sound good! Bass is really taut, sound stage is wide, good balance of warmth and smoothness on the top end... they do how ever Clip something NASTY with any really low synth Sub Bass.
  
 I did notice they stayed REALLY really cool while in my starlight, so I might let them burn in a little over night. See if that helps any 
  

  
 I'm wondering how the Ember might differ, given it's a little more powerful than my lil starlight


----------



## HOWIE13

mshenay said:


> Well the 76's arrived and they sound good! Bass is really taut, sound stage is wide, good balance of warmth and smoothness on the top end... they do how ever Clip something NASTY with any really low synth Sub Bass.
> 
> I did notice they stayed REALLY really cool while in my starlight, so I might let them burn in a little over night. See if that helps any
> 
> ...


 
 Just realised these are the successors of the 6P5. The Zenith  6P5 is excellent in Ember, almost the same as the Visseaux. Not noticed any problems in sub-bass, even in very low pitch church organ music.


----------



## jaywillin

i would think the extra power of the ember helps tighten up the bass as compared to the starlight


----------



## mandrake50

I have a question for you folks that have been using the Visseax 6J5G tubes. I picked up a pair a while back. Was going to use them in my Sunrise III, but had some adapter issues. I screwed ups the Sunrise. Sent it to Jeremy for some TLC and ordered an Ember at the same time. I just got the adapter to plug directly into the 12xx7 socket and to two 6J5 sockets. With the EMber, no sweat, it all works. They do seem to have more breadth to the sound field, but overall softer than the 6SN7 KenRad that I had in there. I need to listen some more.
  
 Anyway, the seller advertised:
*Condition: LOOKS LIKE NEW / UNUSED / NOS / NIB, COMES IN ORIGINAL VISSEAUX BOXES
Cosmetical:** PERFECT
Physical:** PERFECT
Transconductance Testings %: 92 ● 92 **(Minimum Good is 65 on B&K 747B)
Shorts//Gas//Leakage//Grid Emission: NONE
Getter Type: LARGE FOIL D GETTER ON BOTTOM
Plates Type: SMOOTH & BLACK (Matte), 24mm, COPPER SUPPORTS, SILVER GRIDS, ENGRAVED BASES 
Various: EXCELLENT FRENCH MADE 6J5G TUBES BY VISSEAUX DURING THE 50's *
 Here is his picture:

  
 I don't find any identifying codes on the tubes. I did notice that the top of the plate structure on one tube is lower by quite a bit and somewhat cocked. On one tube, call it "A" there are mica "wings on both sides of the top of the plate structure (right side in the photo). The one that has the top of the plate structure at a slight angle, only has the mica piece on one side of that structure. This can be seen in the photo above.
  
 Hmmm also the heater support area at the top of the plates in the center glows brighter on tube A, and on tube B it extends a few mm further below the structure. It seems strange that this would asymmetry would  be attributable to production tolerances... but I am no tube expert.
  
 I only looked this closely because I initially thought that there could be a slight channel imbalance. After warm up, and A/B with my H10, I was likely imagining things.
  
 Anyway, what do you folks that have  the Visseaux tubes think about the differences. Is it anything that matches your experience. Anything that I should be concerned with? I know, the proof is in the listening... which I will do more of, but I am an engineer. This structural difference is making me wonder if I should try to return these tubes. They cost about $85 for the pair, For me that is a bunch for a set of tubes.


----------



## DecentLevi

Well from the description and photos, those Visseaux seem to be in excellent condition. I take it you're ordering a backup pair? Especially if it's from eBay seller Yitry, his service is quite top notch


----------



## mandrake50

decentlevi said:


> Well from the description and photos, those Visseaux seem to be in excellent condition. I take it you're ordering a backup pair? Especially if it's from eBay seller Yitry, his service is quite top notch


 

 This is my first pair... they are in the Ember as we write. Sold by bestubes
  
 BTW, do thes have less gain than a typical SN7 or 12AU7 ?? Seems that I need to crank the volume open considerably more.
  
 Oh, and_  wonder if you read my entire post... I kind of did it in sections...??_


----------



## nwavesailor

See next post


----------



## nwavesailor

I have 2 pairs of the Visseaux 6J5G from the same seller in France, Bestubes. I have bought hundreds of tubes in the past 15 years and my experience with these tubes and this seller has been nothing short of outstanding. NIB / NOS and tested on my 2 testers to be an exact match plate to plate on both pairs.
  
 These were made in the 1950's and the size of the glass bottles do vary as do where the internal structure line up relative to the size. Slight tilt, not an issue. One of your heater wires is likely a hair more exposed and appears brighter, not an issue.
  
 The only thing I found in one pair of these tubes was a larger than average pin diameter that made inserting into the adapter a bit snug, again not a concern or deal breaker for me.
  
 These tubes are so freaking great sounding that my jaw still drops EVERY single time I listen!!!
  
 I have no affiliation with Bestubes, just a very happy customer.


----------



## mandrake50

Thanks for the reassurances. I too have one tube that is very tight in the socket.. compared to the other one anyway. I thought I was going to break the adapter getting it inserted the first time...
 THX again.
 They do sound good!


----------



## nwavesailor

mandrake50 said:


> Thanks for the reassurances. I too have one tube that is very tight in the socket.. compared to the other one anyway. I thought I was going to break the adapter getting it inserted the first time...
> THX again.
> They do sound good!


 

_I, unlike yourself, am NOT an engineer! I did, however, take a Dremel tool with a sanding implement and very carefully removed a little excess material off the larger diameter pins._


----------



## Astral Abyss

mandrake50 said:


> This is my first pair... they are in the Ember as we write. Sold by bestubes
> 
> BTW, do thes have less gain than a typical SN7 or 12AU7 ?? Seems that I need to crank the volume open considerably more.
> 
> Oh, and_  wonder if you read my entire post... I kind of did it in sections...??_


 
  
 I bought a pair of tubes from that seller also.  One of mine is also slightly shorter than the other and the heaters glow a bit brighter and stick out further.  One tube also has slightly off-angle internals.  Doesn't matter though.  I can detect no audible difference between them and they sound wonderful.
  
 As far as the tube you have with only one mica piece, is it possible the other side broke off and is laying in the bottom?


----------



## mandrake50

astral abyss said:


> I bought a pair of tubes from that seller also.  One of mine is also slightly shorter than the other and the heaters glow a bit brighter and stick out further.  One tube also has slightly off-angle internals.  Doesn't matter though.  I can detect no audible difference between them and they sound wonderful.
> 
> As far as the tube you have with only one mica piece, is it possible the other side broke off and is laying in the bottom?


 

 That piece may be in there. I turned it upside down and shook it... nothing fell out of the bottom. It is hard to see the bottom part of the tube because of the flashing from the getter.
 I thought about that because of one of the other members here saying he had a piece of something (possibly mica) loose in his tube.
 Good to read that what I am seeing is not unique to my set. THX !


----------



## HOWIE13

mandrake50 said:


> That piece may be in there. I turned it upside down and shook it... nothing fell out of the bottom. It is hard to see the bottom part of the tube because of the flashing from the getter.
> I thought about that because of one of the other members here saying he had a piece of something (possibly mica) loose in his tube.
> Good to read that what I am seeing is not unique to my set. THX !


 
 I have one with a rattle. Can't see anything moving around and it works perfectly. With any tube type heater elements can appear to vary in intensity, often depending on how exposed they are. That doesn't affect the sound though.
 Those tubes of yours look very good. Like fine hand-painted pottery they can all have slight differences but all my exhaustive testing, and even with the wife abusing them as she knocks them around cleaning the table, has not revealed any differences in sound. They are a bit quieter than single dual triodes, most of my 12AU7's and 6SN7'S have a mu of around 20, and 6J5's around 17 on my tester. The adapter may take off a decibel or so too.
 If you are used to a Ken-Rad 6SN7,VT231 with the dark glass top, the 6J5 sound is fuller in the mids and uppers. I love the bass of that K-R but find the rest of their sound sometimes a bit on the thin side.
 6J5 coke bottle Visseaux are getting very scarce. On eBAY they are $70-90 per tube just now. ENJOY!!


----------



## Astral Abyss

howie13 said:


> I have one with a rattle. Can't see anything moving around and it works perfectly. With any tube type heater elements can appear to vary in intensity, often depending on how exposed they are. That doesn't affect the sound though.
> Those tubes of yours look very good. Like fine hand-painted pottery they can all have slight differences but all my exhaustive testing, and even with the wife abusing them as she knocks them around cleaning the table, has not revealed any differences in sound. They are a bit quieter than single dual triodes, most of my 12AU7's and 6SN7'S have a mu of around 20, and 6J5's around 17 on my tester. The adapter may take off a decibel or so too.
> If you are used to a Ken-Rad 6SN7,VT231 with the dark glass top, the 6J5 sound is fuller in the mids and uppers. I love the bass of that K-R but find the rest of their sound sometimes a bit on the thin side.
> 6J5 coke bottle Visseaux are getting very scarce. On eBAY they are $70-90 per tube just now. ENJOY!!


 
  
 I believe that's just a stock photo the seller used for his multiple pairs of tubes.  When I bought from him it was the same photo and my tubes don't look like those.


----------



## Makiah S

jaywillin said:


> i would think the extra power of the ember helps tighten up the bass as compared to the starlight




yea I might adjust the output resistance on my starlight n see If I can't get better results. That or just sell it with a bunch of tubes n buy the ember ii

the store also offered me an equal ish exchange, so I'm not sure yet what i'll do


----------



## jaywillin

mshenay said:


> yea I might adjust the output resistance on my starlight n see If I can't get better results. That or just sell it with a bunch of tubes n buy the ember ii
> 
> the store also offered me an equal ish exchange, so I'm not sure yet what i'll do


 
 i have the sunrise iii, it has a little power, and cost a little less, it runs in class a too, 
 i'm very pleased with it


----------



## HOWIE13

astral abyss said:


> I believe that's just a stock photo the seller used for his multiple pairs of tubes.  When I bought from him it was the same photo and my tubes don't look like those.


 
 CANCELLED


----------



## Luckbad

mshenay said:


> yea I might adjust the output resistance on my starlight n see If I can't get better results. That or just sell it with a bunch of tubes n buy the ember ii
> 
> the store also offered me an equal ish exchange, so I'm not sure yet what i'll do


 
  
 Could be bad tubes, could be that those tubes require too much power. If they're cool, there's definitely something not up to snuff.


----------



## d3rrlck

Anyone tried a 6C5G tube with ember? I read somewhere that it is a predecessor of 6J5 tubes, they're quite nice looking tube, I just couldn't find a review or impression about 6C5G, maybe they're not really popular but it may sound nice with the ember too


----------



## HOWIE13

d3rrlck said:


> Anyone tried a 6C5G tube with ember? I read somewhere that it is a predecessor of 6J5 tubes, they're quite nice looking tube, I just couldn't find a review or impression about 6C5G, maybe they're not really popular but it may sound nice with the ember too


 
 Yep-Russian ones were nice and airy, detail rather than warmth. Good dynamics and had the holographic soundstage that typifies the 6J5 class.
 Hytrons were very warm and rich- lovely sound BUT hum was too intrusive with most cans.


----------



## sneaky415

mshenay said:


> Well the 76's arrived and they sound good! Bass is really taut, sound stage is wide, good balance of warmth and smoothness on the top end... they do how ever Clip something NASTY with any really low synth Sub Bass.
> 
> I did notice they stayed REALLY really cool while in my starlight, so I might let them burn in a little over night. See if that helps any
> 
> I'm wondering how the Ember might differ, given it's a little more powerful than my lil starlight


 
  
 Thanks for your impressions, they should sound even better with some burn in. My 76's should be with me sometime next week so I can let you know how they sound in the Ember.
  
 I have also got a little bonus tube incoming, the Visseaux 6A6. I read some positive reviews of it in the Elise thread


----------



## d3rrlck

howie13 said:


> Yep-Russian ones were nice and airy, detail rather than warmth. Good dynamics and had the holographic soundstage that typifies the 6J5 class.
> Hytrons were very warm and rich- lovely sound BUT hum was too intrusive with most cans.


 
  
 Thanks HOWIE13! They're plug and play into the 6J5 adapter correct? If yes, I might get the fivre 6c5g with the brown base.


----------



## Makiah S

sneaky415 said:


> Thanks for your impressions, they should sound even better with some burn in. My 76's should be with me sometime next week so I can let you know how they sound in the Ember.
> 
> I have also got a little bonus tube incoming, the Visseaux 6A6. I read some positive reviews of it in the Elise thread


 
   
 Also do you have an adapter for them? If not I'd love to sell you mine, as I may not need it any longer 
  
 Quote:


jaywillin said:


> i have the sunrise iii, it has a little power, and cost a little less, it runs in class a too,
> i'm very pleased with it


 
 I might just jump right to the Ember II so I can use my HE 4 with it as well 
  


luckbad said:


> Could be bad tubes, could be that those tubes require too much power. If they're cool, there's definitely something not up to snuff.


 
 Well my seller has offered me a equal value Trade, and appreantly they have higher Plate Resistance and a low Mu, meaning they clip with a low plate voltage, I'm going to adjust the Output Resistance and see if they improve


----------



## jaywillin

just plain, everyday galvanized  hardware fabric, still needs some finishing touches, i need to clean up the edges, probably a little more duct tape
 it just slides on and off, the ground wire has a spade connector on one end, and an alligator clip on the other
 and best of all, not a buzz, crackle, hum !


----------



## sneaky415

mshenay said:


> Also do you have an adapter for them? If not I'd love to sell you mine, as I may not need it any longer


 
 It's a pity with those clipping problems. I already have the adapter but I have my external power supply connected to it so I might be willing to buy another adapter, let me think about it. Are you putting your Mazda 76's up for sale as well?


----------



## Demo3

jaywillin said:


> just plain, everyday galvanized  hardware fabric, still needs some finishing touches, i need to clean up the edges, probably a little more duct tape
> it just slides on and off, the ground wire has a spade connector on one end, and an alligator clip on the other
> and best of all, not a buzz, crackle, hum !


 

 Ok, now we need some of these.


----------



## jaywillin

demo3 said:


> Ok, now we need some of these.


 
 LOL


----------



## HOWIE13

d3rrlck said:


> Thanks HOWIE13! They're plug and play into the 6J5 adapter correct? If yes, I might get the fivre 6c5g with the brown base.


 
 Plug and play away.


----------



## HOWIE13

sneaky415 said:


> Thanks for your impressions, they should sound even better with some burn in. My 76's should be with me sometime next week so I can let you know how they sound in the Ember.
> 
> I have also got a little bonus tube incoming, the Visseaux 6A6. I read some positive reviews of it in the Elise thread


 
 If it's anything like the Ken-Rad 6A6 I'm listening with just now you are in for a real treat.


----------



## Makiah S

sneaky415 said:


> It's a pity with those clipping problems. I already have the adapter but I have my external power supply connected to it so I might be willing to buy another adapter, let me think about it. Are you putting your Mazda 76's up for sale as well?


 
 I might be, I paid $83 for the Adapter an the Tubes, my SEller is willing to let me do an "equal value" exchange but I'd rather sell em both to some one here for like $70 or something, but I'm not sure if I want to sell these or try to buy a Ember II first then try the Mazda 76s in that amp


----------



## Luckbad

Ken-Rad 6SN7 in the Horizon.


----------



## sneaky415

mshenay said:


> I might be, I paid $83 for the Adapter an the Tubes, my SEller is willing to let me do an "equal value" exchange but I'd rather sell em both to some one here for like $70 or something, but I'm not sure if I want to sell these or try to buy a Ember II first then try the Mazda 76s in that amp


 
 Ok, I will post my impressions with the Ember next week and we will see. I think that those clipping problems shouldn't be present with the ember, I have tried various tube types including 76 and haven't experienced any such problems.


----------



## Demo3

I ordered a 12 x 24-Inch sheet of copper hardware fabric from Amazon.  How all I have to do is decide on a shape.
 I am thinking... pyramid, square, cone, cylinder, sphere, triangular prism, thunder dome?


----------



## Makiah S

So I'm going to be selling all of my Tubes and my Starlight Amp, I'm engaged to a forigner and it seems that is much more expensive to get her here to the states than I was initially aware of


----------



## joespride

mshenay said:


> So I'm going to be selling all of my Tubes and my Starlight Amp, I'm engaged to a forigner and it seems that is much more expensive to get her here to the states than I was initially aware of


 
  Hey shoot me a message I will buy back all the tubes I sent you for a full refund 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





,  I just did a makeshift faraday cage and now have a design worked out in my head how to attach the cage to the Caps...................Listening to the Brimars which were the worst of my humming issues DEAD QUIET so now I want to try all the other varients again


----------



## Makiah S

joespride said:


> Hey shoot me a message I will buy back all the tubes I sent you for a full refund
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 can do man  I'll have a full post with everything up here shortly


----------



## CZ4A

demo3 said:


> Ok, now we need some of these.


 

 I was thinking more along the lines of these so you can have a cage match on your amp!


----------



## jaywillin

joespride said:


> Hey shoot me a message I will buy back all the tubes I sent you for a full refund
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 i was having a hard time trying to figure out a good way to attach a ground to a cap, but when i got my cage finished and over the amp, it didn't need the additional grounding to the cap. just one lead from the amp to the cage.
  
 NOW AN UPDATE :
  
@whirlwind sent me a couple of his 6sn7gt tubes, just put the first in, and it, and the amp are silent, no noise except music
 so, looks like it was just the particular tube i had
 a big shout to WW , thanks !


----------



## joespride

jaywillin said:


> i was having a hard time trying to figure out a good way to attach a ground to a cap, but when i got my cage finished and over the amp, it didn't need the additional grounding to the cap. just one lead from the amp to the cage.
> 
> NOW AN UPDATE :
> 
> ...


 
 I found taking a piece of solid core copper with a ball of solder on the end and it just laying on top of the cap while other end is to the cage made for the quietest set up, When I get my final draft cage built I will solder the wire to the cage so it will be a simple lift off and on with no further need to attach anything  it is very quiet now


----------



## Demo3

cz4a said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of these so you can have a cage match on your amp!


 
  
  
LOL...


----------



## jaywillin

joespride said:


> I found taking a piece of solid core copper with a ball of solder on the end and it just laying on top of the cap while other end is to the cage made for the quietest set up, When I get my final draft cage built I will solder the wire to the cage so it will be a simple lift off and on with no further need to attach anything  it is very quiet now


 
 with my wire, the chassis end had a spade connector, connected to a plate screw, the cage end, an alligator clip
 i'll still use the cage when needed, the 7193 set up was just a tad noisy, faint, but there, with the cade, silencio


----------



## DecentLevi

Wow, I'd just like to give one more thanks to @d3rrlck you really changed the course of history here. It seems we are all about to be Humphrey 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And for anybody going the tin foil wrap or cage routes, I'm sure we all enjoy seeing those interesting, and often humourous looking setups! I for one don't care too much on appearance as long as the sonics benefit!


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Wow, I'd just like to give one more thanks to @d3rrlck you really changed the course of history here. It seems we are all about to be Humphrey
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I don't have a hum problem except with two or three tubes with my X2 and HD598.  I've tried aluminium and Faraday with the two or three tubes that hum with these two cans and they don't stop the hum.
 However, what I find is that if I earth myself by holding a wire which is connected to an earthing point on a graphic equaliser which isn't even plugged into the wall socket all hum stops.
 I think I must be acting as a transmitter so I am now going to go out to buy several rolls of aluminium foil to make a tent to cover myself up with and see if that stops the hum. Failing that I will have to Faraday cage myself in, like I was in a zoo.


----------



## jaywillin

howie13 said:


> I don't have a hum problem except with two or three tubes with my X2 and HD598.  I've tried aluminium and Faraday with the two or three tubes that hum with these two cans and they don't stop the hum.
> However, what I find is that if I earth myself by holding a wire which is connected to an earthing point on a graphic equaliser which isn't even plugged into the wall socket all hum stops.
> I think I must be acting as a transmitter so I am now going to go out to buy several rolls of aluminium foil to make a tent to cover myself up with and see if that stops the hum. Failing that I will have to Faraday cage myself in, like I was in a zoo.


 
  
 mylar ?


----------



## lalala6

Hey all,
  
 I am clearing most of my tubes to fund for the Visseaux's. All of them work great in the Ember, and come with their original boxes except for the Cleartop.
  
 They are:

RCA 12AU7A Cleartop
Russian 6N6P Gold Grid (NOS NIB)
Electro-Harmonix 6H30Pi Gold Pin (NIB)
RCA 6SN7GTB
Sylvania 12SN7GT (the 12V equivalent of 6SN7GT)
Optional: 6SN7 to 6DJ8 adapter (from Garage1217) for $20
  
 I paid over $150 for them shipped. Selling them as a set for only $85 + shipping. Please send me a PM if interested, thanks!


----------



## Luckbad

lalala6 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I am clearing most of my tubes to fund for the Visseaux's. All of them work great in the Ember, and come with their original boxes except for the Cleartop.
> 
> ...




Let me know if you want to sell the 6n6p and 6n30p separately!


----------



## DecentLevi

lalala6 said:


> ...
> 
> Sylvania 12SN7GT (the 12V equivalent of 6SN7GT)
> ...


 
 That's interesting, for some reason I had previously thought the 12SN7 would not be compatible in the Ember, as it's twice the voltage of the 6SN7. But after checking again it looks like the Ember 2 has an automatic heat selector to roll 6 and 12v tubes. The 12SN7 is supposed to be identical to 6SN7 except for the double current. I take it this didn't sound the best though, seeing that you're selling it.


----------



## Luckbad

decentlevi said:


> That's interesting, for some reason I had previously thought the 12SN7 would not be compatible in the Ember, as it's twice the voltage of the 6SN7. But after checking again it looks like the Ember 2 has an automatic heat selector to roll 6 and 12v tubes. The 12SN7 is supposed to be identical to 6SN7 except for the double current. I take it this didn't sound the best though, seeing that you're selling it.




Only the Solstice is rated for 12SN7.


----------



## lalala6

decentlevi said:


> That's interesting, for some reason I had previously thought the 12SN7 would not be compatible in the Ember, as it's twice the voltage of the 6SN7. But after checking again it looks like the Ember 2 has an automatic heat selector to roll 6 and 12v tubes. The 12SN7 is supposed to be identical to 6SN7 except for the double current. I take it this didn't sound the best though, seeing that you're selling it.



Well, I asked for a 6SN7 but Jeremy sent me this 12SN7, so I suppose it is supported by the Ember. Sounded fine, but yeah not the best tube I've heard.


----------



## lalala6

Adding one more tube (GE Smoked Glass 6DJ8) to the bundle at no extra cost. So the set now consists of:
  

RCA 12AU7A Cleartop
Russian 6N6P Gold Grid (NOS NIB)
Electro-Harmonix 6H30Pi Gold Pin (NIB)
RCA 6SN7GTB
Sylvania 12SN7GT (the 12V equivalent of 6SN7GT)
GE Smoked Glass 6DJ8
  
 All for $85 + shipping.
  
  
 Quote:


lalala6 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I am clearing most of my tubes to fund for the Visseaux's. All of them work great in the Ember, and come with their original boxes except for the Cleartop.
> 
> ...


----------



## nwavesailor

Well, I put the Vissaeux 6J5G up against some fairly nice 6SN7's tonight. All were VT-231 versions: KenRad (smoked glass), Raytheon ladder plates, and Sylvanias (NOT the Bad Boys) . They all sounded very nice and I could easily live with any of them BUT...............there is just something very special and a bit more happening with the 'V's!


----------



## mandrake50

nwavesailor said:


> Well, I put the Vissaeux 6J5G up against some fairly nice 6SN7's tonight. All were VT-231 versions: KenRad (smoked glass), Raytheon ladder plates, and Sylvanias (NOT the Bad Boys) . They all sounded very nice and I could easily live with any of them BUT...............there is just something very special and a bit more happening with the 'V's!


 

 That is definitive...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Any more.?  I got a pair of the Visseauxs . When I first listened I was disappointed. Turned the rig off for a couple of days. I came back and was nicely impressed. It made me wonder about when the Ember went about its automatic setup routine. Does it do it during regularly during operation, or only once at startup?


----------



## CZ4A

lalala6 said:


> Well, I asked for a 6SN7 but Jeremy sent me this 12SN7, so I suppose it is supported by the Ember. Sounded fine, but yeah not the best tube I've heard.


 

 What adapter did you use for the 12SN7? I tried using Jeremy's 6SN7 adapter in my APPJ's 12V socket and it didn't work. Neither did an eBay 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter. I have a proper 12SN7 to 12AU7 adapter on the way- it looks to me like at least with the eBay adapters they have to be designed for either 6V or 12V operation.


----------



## lalala6

cz4a said:


> What adapter did you use for the 12SN7? I tried using Jeremy's 6SN7 adapter in my APPJ's 12V socket and it didn't work. Neither did an eBay 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter. I have a proper 12SN7 to 12AU7 adapter on the way- it looks to me like at least with the eBay adapters they have to be designed for either 6V or 12V operation.


 
 I use Jeremy's 6SN7 adapter, works fine in my Ember.


----------



## CZ4A

lalala6 said:


> I use Jeremy's 6SN7 adapter, works fine in my Ember.


 
 Interesting... maybe the Garage1217 adapter only works with a G1217 amp for 12SN7s, or something else is preventing my APPJ from using 12SN7s. I can't imagine what since electrically they are within specs. The proof will be when the 12SN7 to 12AU7 adapter arrives. Thanks for letting me know.
  
 All this talk about how good the Visseauxs are makes me a little mad at myself for not jumping on a pair for my Sunrise earlier. What's left on eBay seems to sell for well more than what some of you folks paid for them. I need to get more of my unused tubes sold, but first I need shipping and packing supplies!


----------



## lalala6

cz4a said:


> Interesting... maybe the Garage1217 adapter only works with a G1217 amp for 12SN7s, or something else is preventing my APPJ from using 12SN7s. I can't imagine what since electrically they are within specs. The proof will be when the 12SN7 to 12AU7 adapter arrives. Thanks for letting me know.
> 
> All this talk about how good the Visseauxs are makes me a little mad at myself for not jumping on a pair for my Sunrise earlier. What's left on eBay seems to sell for well more than what some of you folks paid for them. I need to get more of my unused tubes sold, but first I need shipping and packing supplies!


 
 You're welcome. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yeah it's impossible to find reasonably priced Visseauxs on ebay now. I'm gonna stalk ebay in hopes that a good deal on the Visseauxs pop up!


----------



## DecentLevi

cz4a said:


> What adapter did you use for the 12SN7? I tried using Jeremy's 6SN7 adapter in my APPJ's 12V socket and it didn't work. Neither did an eBay 6SN7 to 12AU7 adapter. I have a proper 12SN7 to 12AU7 adapter on the way- it looks to me like at least with the eBay adapters they have to be designed for either 6V or 12V operation.


 
 Since the 12SN7 is 100% identical to the 6SN7 except double the amps, no question a standard 6SN7 adapter would do the job, just as long as the tube is working
  
  


lalala6 said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Here's a tip I'm passing on that was passed onto me for finding vintage Hi-Fi gear:
 Just search for your product on HiFiShark (a hi-fi audio gear search engine that scours multple sources including eBay), then click the link at the bottom of the page to sign up for an email notification after your product is being sold.
  
 Also good old Google / Bing search for your tube, as there are hundreds of tube shops out there


----------



## nwavesailor

lalala6 said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 A week ago, I asked if anyone on the forum had any Visseaux's in a semi-humorous post and got lucky!
  
 I'm sure you have seen the E-Bay seller in Italy with pairs and quads. Pairs are pretty steep at over $200 shipped but the quads are a bit less painful at $318 ($159 / pair). These audio and tube info forums are great with folks sharing info on tubes that work well. The down side is more people chasing formally inexpensive tubes and driving up the prices but you can't have one without the other.
  
 There will be another 'must try' tube or shiny object coming down the pike and people will sell off their current favorite. I have been chasing / collecting tubes for a few years and, until reading about them on this forum, have never even heard of the French brand Visseaux!


----------



## d3rrlck

I just ordered the fivre 6C5G, and if lucky I will be able to try the mullard ecc31 too. Right now, the NU 6L5G is getting the stage spotlight. Oh man! these tubes are really close sounding to the Visseaux 6J5. I could not even tell the difference during my first few hours of listening. After the excitement wears off, I could now understand why some folks are describing the NU 6L5G as lovely sounding. To my ear, it adds more body to low and midrange, but has tiny bit less soundstage, details, and clarity than the Visseaux 6J5. I've only listened to 6L5G for 6 hours, these are NOS tubes so it might need some burn in, but I would rate the 6L5G as 90% of the visseaux sound.
  
 The fivre 6C5G will be my third dual tube. I'm still hoping that these will not hum, otherwise the ember stays inside the cage. The cage started to grow on me, as I kinda like the industrial look which makes my ember uniquely looking amp


----------



## jaywillin

d3rrlck said:


> I just ordered the fivre 6C5G, and if lucky I will be able to try the mullard ecc31 too. Right now, the NU 6L5G is getting the stage spotlight. Oh man! these tubes are really close sounding to the Visseaux 6J5. I could not even tell the difference during my first few hours of listening. After the excitement wears off, I could now understand why some folks are describing the NU 6L5G as lovely sounding. To my ear, it adds more body to low and midrange, but has tiny bit less soundstage, details, and clarity than the Visseaux 6J5. I've only listened to 6L5G for 6 hours, these are NOS tubes so it might need some burn in, but I would rate the 6L5G as 90% of the visseaux sound.
> 
> The fivre 6C5G will be my third dual tube. I'm still hoping that these will not hum, otherwise the ember stays inside the cage. The cage started to grow on me, as I kinda like the industrial look which makes my ember uniquely looking amp


 
 yeah, your cage look better than mine, i do think i'll build another , and use some nicer looking mesh, my home depot hardware fabric, while effective, looks a little rough.
 that's the m-stage balanced amp under the ember isn't it ?
  
 love the rack too !


----------



## d3rrlck

jaywillin said:


> yeah, your cage look better than mine, i do think i'll build another , and use some nicer looking mesh, my home depot hardware fabric, while effective, looks a little rough.
> that's the m-stage balanced amp under the ember isn't it ?
> 
> love the rack too !


 
 Yup that's mstage HPA-3B. I used to have the mstage v1.2 (sold it), but always curious about balance setup. The ember on dual tube easily rival the mstage soundstage though


----------



## jaywillin

d3rrlck said:


> Yup that's mstage HPA-3B. I used to have the mstage v1.2 (sold it), but always curious about balance setup. The ember on dual tube easily rival the mstage soundstage though


 
 i have the gustard h10, and love it, i don't think it can be beat for the money, and it's my favorite solid state amp i've ever had, i like it more than the bryston bha-1 i had.
 the has been some talk on the gustard thread about the mstage, which sounds intriguing to me. 
 my teac is dual mono, and has balanced outputs, the h10 is dual mono with balanced inputs, but no balanced output. 
 i've seen a comparison between the h10 and the hpa-3b, and the guy comparing said the mstage's balanced headphone out beats the h10, but the h10 beats the mstage 
 in single ended operation


----------



## Luckbad

Regarding 12SN7, I asked if they would work properly in Ember, Horizon, or Sunrise a while back. 

From Jeremy:
"Notta, only our project Solstice can use them."


----------



## joespride

Running the Brimar 6j5 with the Cage and I am really liking them, Listening to Clapton Unplugged Deluxe Edition off HDtracks I am not missing the Visseaux at all right now


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Running the Brimar 6j5 with the Cage and I am really liking them, Listening to Clapton Unplugged Deluxe Edition off HDtracks I am not missing the Visseaux at all right now


 

 VERY cool, joespride! Good to hear they are working out for you with the 'cage' in place.
  
 I may not have given the Brimar's enough time. In my short audition, I found them to be not quite as extended as the Visseaux and that is what I was looking for. I couldn't see owning 2 pairs of Visseaux and the Brimar's as well.
  
 At least the Brimar's are available where the 'V's  have gotten pretty scarce.


----------



## DecentLevi

luckbad said:


> Regarding 12SN7, I asked if they would work properly in Ember, Horizon, or Sunrise a while back.
> 
> From Jeremy:
> "Notta, only our project Solstice can use them."


 
 So the manufacturer said 12SN7 aren't compatible with the Ember. However he also sent one out which a member was successfully able to use on it. My research all points to both being the same schematic, except the 12SN7 is 12 volts vs. 6; and that they both have the same performance. So the only benefit of 12SN7 is that they are cheaper, and if you're going to use the 12SN7 on the Ember, do so at your own risk and keep checking for any high temperatures
  
Here and here are a useful data-sheet comparison


----------



## joespride

nwavesailor said:


> VERY cool, joespride! Good to hear they are working out for you with the 'cage' in place.
> 
> I may not have given the Brimar's enough time. In my short audition, I found them to be not quite as extended as the Visseaux and that is what I was looking for. I couldn't see owning 2 pairs of Visseaux and the Brimar's as well.
> 
> At least the Brimar's are available where the 'V's  have gotten pretty scarce.


 
 Where do you find the Brimar readily available ??  I have only seen 2 pairs available but I dont have dedicated sources for tubes I try and watch here, Ebay, AA, and Audiogon................I have a 3rd pair of Visseaux on the way and a 2nd pair of the Brimars (the Brimars are labled S.T.C.F. 101 on the base, However the build plates, getters, mica ETC... are an exact match to my current Brimars
  
 That will have me with 5 NOS rare pairs, 3 Visseaux and 2 Brimar.  If I dont stop you will read an obituary "Wife had enough and shoved various tubes in various openings causing a lack of oxygen,  He is survived by his amp"
  
 I was having issues with freezing up running J River and the web, so now trying foobar 2000 and it seems to be doing fine, keeping fingers crossed
  
 Ryan Adams Full HDtracks version Live at Carnagie Hall ="Amazing"


----------



## connieflyer

Which version of Jriver are you using?  Have had momentary audio out, due in part to latency when running some programs. Using latest now and still have a few times it stops but continues after 1 sec.  Have to try other settings and see, running DPC latency checker should not be a problem.


----------



## joespride

connieflyer said:


> Which version of Jriver are you using?  Have had momentary audio out, due in part to latency when running some programs. Using latest now and still have a few times it stops but continues after 1 sec.  Have to try other settings and see, running DPC latency checker should not be a problem.


 
 I have MC20, It is not a latency issue, I played music using MC20 for about a year with no issues on current PC for about a month now it has randomly froze up and I have to power down and restart the pc Its a PITA..................
  
 My Music is on an external drive which is only on when playing music through Jriver, I can copy a drive for back up or pretty much anything else I like for HOURS with no issues, I turn on my external drive and start playing files through Jriver and random freeze 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I downloaded Foobar a couple days ago as a test to see if I get any freeze ups so far I have been good, my next test will be to use my external drive with Foobar and see if I can go with out any issues.............Its just my convoluted way of narrowing down to find the problem


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Where do you find the Brimar readily available ??  I have only seen 2 pairs available but I dont have dedicated sources for tubes I try and watch here, Ebay, AA, and Audiogon
> 
> _Brendan at Tube World has 6J5G's. 1950's Brimar oval plate matched pairs as well as some 1940's Tung Sol ladder plate pairs. I have no affiliation with Tube World. _


----------



## Astral Abyss

I've got a pair of National Union 6J5Gs on the way, arriving tomorrow.  I don't know if NU actually made their own tubes at that point in time or if they're relabeled.  Figured I'd give them a shot as the price was right.
  
 Also, I'm getting a bit nervous... one of my Visseaux 6J5Gs is starting to exhibit a bit of sputtering/popping.  It's very quiet but it's there.  This is after about 20 hours of use.
  
 Thought I'd try something totally different today and put in one of my 1961 Valvo CCa's (basically a E88CC/6922) that I had originally bought for my Lyr 2 before I sold it.  Holy crap I forgot how good these sound.  There's something special about that Philips Herleen sound.  Sadly, I wouldn't recommend looking for any as they cost as much as the Ember.  It's one of the reasons I quit the Lyr and its 6DJ8/6922/7308/CCa madness.  Prices were ridiculous.  I feel that the Ember sounds better anyway, especially with the 6SN7s and 6J5Gs.


----------



## Tunkejazz

Got my own poor-man's IKEA cage (it is a cutlery stand, IKEA ORDNING). Not wired to the chassis but it is somewhat in contact with the CNC'd plates and it removes ALL the background noise 
  
 It costs like 2 EUR. It fits the Visseaux easily.
  
 EDIT: With the Visseaux I don't need to ground the cage, but with many other tubes it works much better with a wire that grounds it to the chassis.


----------



## jaywillin

tunkejazz said:


> Got my own poor-man's IKEA cage (it is a cutlery stand, IKEA ORDNING). Not wired to the chassis but it is somewhat in contact with the CNC'd plates and it removes ALL the background noise
> 
> It costs like 2 EUR. It fits the Visseaux easily.
> 
> EDIT: With the Visseaux I don't need to ground the cage, but with many other tubes it works much better with a wire that grounds it to the chassis.


 
 that looks better than my soup can, and it's ventilated !


----------



## joespride

My Current Cage with the Brimars hiding inside 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

 It is kind of ugly but dead silent,  I like the idea of just covering the tubes with the can style I may build one and see if it works as well


----------



## jaywillin

joespride said:


> My Current Cage with the Brimars hiding inside
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 hardware fabric ?

  
 does 7193 set up look familiar ?


----------



## joespride

Yes looks familiar, I also used hardware fabric, I have a new design I am working on, the square was OK but I did not like lifting it on an off as it always caught the sides of the CNC plates and eventually would scratch something up, I made a cylinder now that I just tested and it works just as good as the box I need to finish up a top on it I will post a pic when I get it finished. Already looks a ton better


----------



## jaywillin

joespride said:


> Yes looks familiar, I also used hardware fabric, I have a new design I am working on, the square was OK but I did not like lifting it on an off as it always caught the sides of the CNC plates and eventually would scratch something up, I made a cylinder now that I just tested and it works just as good as the box I need to finish up a top on it I will post a pic when I get it finished. Already looks a ton better


 
 i used some duct tape around the bottom, works fine, but i do want to get some nicer metal, adjust the size just a bit, but i have a good mock up to go by
  
 you want any of the extra 7193 tubes i have now ?


----------



## joespride

jaywillin said:


> i used some duct tape around the bottom, works fine, but i do want to get some nicer metal, adjust the size just a bit, but i have a good mock up to go by
> 
> you want any of the extra 7193 tubes i have now ?


 
 I dont have an adapter for 7193, I am concentrating my efforts on the 6J5 varients.  I bought all of Mshenay tubes and Starlight Waiting on shipping now
  
 I will have a lot of rolling to do with the new cage. 
  
 I am listening to the new cage as I type, and it is just as quiet as the Square version that covered the whole amp, yet much easier to take on and off with no chance of scarring up the CNC, The cylinder looks much better as well.  
  
 I like the hardware mesh as it allows a great view of the glowing tubes and allows plenty of ventilation


----------



## d3rrlck

I'm glad you guys are having fun adding your personal touches modification to the ember 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so I ordered another mesh as I have another cage design in mind.
  
@joespride
 I'm still pretty much interested with the Brimar 6J5Gs? Is that from the 1950s? Did you get a chance to listen to NU 6L5G too? If yes, which one is much closer sounding to the Visseaux? Appreciate your feedback


----------



## DecentLevi

d3rrlck said:


> I'm glad you guys are having fun adding your personal touches modification to the ember
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I think you already did a bang-up job with this one


----------



## joespride

d3rrlck said:


> I'm glad you guys are having fun adding your personal touches modification to the ember
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I did listen to them but not at there best (IE...quiet) I have some on the way though back from Meshay  heres my final cage design I wrapped the top and bottom with parachord I had laying around I have a piece of copper wire tied to the inside of the cage that just touches the top of 1 cap its dead quiet and easy to lift off for quicker tube swaps
  

 I think it looks much better as well, I may tie some kind of badge to it Spider / Skull just to butch it up some


----------



## DecentLevi

Double the functionality of the caged Ember as a bug zapper with hot enough tubes

  
 Oh and PS - the moderators said they will penalize all members who post photos of modded Embers on the tube rolling thread... Huh? what was that? Maybe I would be the first because it could be mostly my fault! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
_(not serious)_


----------



## jaywillin

joespride said:


> I did listen to them but not at there best (IE...quiet) I have some on the way though back from Meshay  heres my final cage design I wrapped the top and bottom with parachord I had laying around I have a piece of copper wire tied to the inside of the cage that just touches the top of 1 cap its dead quiet and easy to lift off for quicker tube swaps
> 
> 
> I think it looks much better as well, I may tie some kind of badge to it Spider / Skull just to butch it up some


 
 nice design, 
 so, no sparkly doodads then ?


----------



## DecentLevi

Does anyone think this tube may sound good?

 It's a Silvertone 6F6G which is compatable (??) with 6J5
  
 Also searching around there are still Visseaux & Zenith 6J5 available (not only on eBay), and along with the 6F6, looks like 6H6 are compatible too
  
*EDIT*: 6F6 is a pentode and 6H6 is a diode, so we would need to check further on compatibility first. But the voltage specs are good


----------



## HOWIE13

If you use two of those 6F6's, like with 6J5's, the max heater current of Ember2 will be exceeded.


----------



## Luckbad

For future reference, if anyone wants to try RetroValves with their Project Ember/Sunrise/Horizon, don't. They won't work. They only work as a 12AX7 replacement in amps that supply 100v (like guitar amplifiers). Going to send them back, but it was worth a try!


----------



## joespride

jaywillin said:


> nice design,
> so, no sparkly doodads then ?


 





,  No do dads  "YET"
  
  
  
  
 Wait dont tubes burning bright = sparkly do dads ?


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> ,  No do dads  "YET"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Or these, one with a local NC connection!


----------



## nwavesailor

I guess there IS more Visseaux 6J5G for sale.................
  
  


 Not as easy on the wallet as they had been, but they are out there!


----------



## joespride

nwavesailor said:


> I guess there IS more Visseaux 6J5G for sale.................
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thats the thing, once the $$$ goes up I dont see it dropping again. Only way to get a cheaper pair is for a new seller to show up.  I got my 3 pair for right around 100 each and I would not take a penny less if I sold any of them


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Thats the thing, once the $$$ goes up I dont see it dropping again. Only way to get a cheaper pair is for a new seller to show up.  I got my 3 pair for right around 100 each and I would not take a penny less if I sold any of them


 

  
  
 Like yourself, I was fortunate to snag my 2 pairs in the $100 / pair range. Are they worth $150-$200 / pair............the more I listen the more I think, YES they are!
  
 I haven't bought many tubes in the past 15 years that do it for me quite like the 'V's
  
 Good old free market and supply and demand at work.


----------



## jaywillin

joespride said:


> ,  No do dads  "YET"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 there certainly are some tubes that are "sparklier" than others


----------



## sneaky415

Some tubes have arrived:
  
 Visseaux 6j5g: Impressive sound, unfortunately one tube had some piece of the getter missing and it had a terrible humming sound. There was definitely something fishy with that tube but the seller agreed to issue a refund so I am happy with that.
  
 Mazda 76: This tube was very bassy with the bass bleeding over into the other frequencies. What I found after experimenting a bit was that I could use the equalizer to decrease the bass and slightly increase the midrange and I had tubes with a great sound. With a bit of tuning from the equalizer these tubes sound as good to me as the Visseaux. I believe the Mazdas to be high quality tubes, its just that the Ember wasn't tuned with these tubes in mind. With a bit of equalizing they sound great.
  
 These are my preliminary impressions after listening for a few hours.


----------



## nwavesailor

sneaky415 said:


> Some tubes have arrived:
> 
> Visseaux 6j5g: Impressive sound, unfortunately one tube had some piece of the getter missing and it had a terrible humming sound. There was definitely something fishy with that tube but the seller agreed to issue a refund so I am happy with that.
> 
> ...


 

_Hopefully we are not seeing a pattern in Visseaux tubes with issues. I recall another member posting in the last week or so with a problem with one of his NOS tubes after just 15-20 hours. I guess they are 50-60+ years old and any tube can (and will) fail at any time._
  
_joespride may be on the right track with a primary pair of Visseaux 6J5G's + 2 backup pairs as well as 2 pairs of Brimar's!_


----------



## Luckbad

After all of my tube rolling, I've settled on two preferred tubes:
  
 NOS 6N6P / 6H6Pi tubes or new production Electro-Harmonix 6H30Pi (sound virtually identical)
 New production Electro-Harmonix 12BH7
  
 The latter is more neutral with better high end extension, but I usually prefer then 6N6P.
  
 I have a bunch of random tubes that I'll eventually get up for sale here. Let me know if you want any of them before I post them.
  
 They all measure well (many were from Jeremy):
  

Ken-Rad 6SN7GT (Made for Rogers)
2x RCA 6SN7GT (Smoked Glass)
GE Firewire 6GU7
2x RCA Cleartop
Raytheon 5814WA
  
 I have some others running that I'm not remembering right now.


----------



## joespride

The enhanced bass with the Brimar 6j5 solid plates is really growing on me with the faraday cage in place, They may be a tad rolled on top but I dont feel like I am missing anything.......Mids have a really nice tone as well


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> The enhanced bass with the Brimar 6j5 solid plates is really growing on me with the faraday cage in place, They may be a tad rolled on top but I dont feel like I am missing anything.......Mids have a really nice tone as well


 

 Are the "solid plates" on your Brimar's flat and not oval shaped as in the Visseaux? The 1950's Brimar's I auditioned had oval plates and I thought that perhaps all Brimar's had this internal structure.


----------



## joespride

Mine are the oval plates but no holes like the Visseaux, and the getter is the dimpled foil D on bottom side, Large round perforated mica top and bottom of the plates


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Mine are the oval plates but no holes like the Visseaux, and the getter is the dimpled foil D on bottom side, Large round perforated mica top and bottom of the plates


 

 OK............. That sounds like the same internals I noted in the Brimar 6J5G's I had.


----------



## Luckbad

What happens when you decide you're happy with a tube setup? You roll anyway.
  
 MHDT Labs Atlantis with Sylvania 5670 Gold Brand -> Garage1217 Project Ember II with RCA 6SN7GT Smoked Glass
  
 The soundstage is out of your head. Really surprisingly noticeable. Sound is excellent as well. Very detailed without any harshness--the treble is slightly rolled off without losing any clarity.
  
 I'd be reluctant to talk about night and day, but it is an obvious difference from what I was using before.
  
 How important is soundstage to me? Guess I'll have to figure that one out. I wouldn't say that I distinctly prefer this sound to the combo of 6N6P tubes in the amp and 6N2P in the dac. I think I'll have to burn all the tubes in now to be sure.
  
 Glad I didn't put them up for sale yet!


----------



## nwavesailor

luckbad said:


> What happens when you decide you're happy with a tube setup? You roll anyway.
> 
> MHDT Labs Atlantis with Sylvania 5670 Gold Brand -> Garage1217 Project Ember II with RCA 6SN7GT Smoked Glass
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks, Luckbad!
  
 I have a pair of the RCA 6SN7GT / VT-231 w/ smoked glass that I need to try. In other applications, these RCA's seemed kind of dull and uninteresting. Perhaps they are just 'neutral' sounding and I was looking for some sort of coloration. It will be interesting to see how the soundstage of the RCA's compare to the Visseaux.


----------



## Luckbad

nwavesailor said:


> Thanks, Luckbad!
> 
> I have a pair of the RCA 6SN7GT / VT-231 w/ smoked glass that I need to try. In other applications, these RCA's seemed kind of dull and uninteresting. Perhaps they are just 'neutral' sounding and I was looking for some sort of coloration. It will be interesting to see how the soundstage of the RCA's compare to the Visseaux.


 
  
 My first impressions of the RCAs was the same, actually. A bit dull. The Sylvania tube in my dac is particularly not dull, so it might just be countering the RCA. I've read that the RCA benefits a ton from burn-in to become less dull, though.


----------



## nwavesailor

luckbad said:


> My first impressions of the RCAs was the same, actually. A bit dull. The Sylvania tube in my dac is particularly not dull, so it might just be countering the RCA. I've read that the RCA benefits a ton from burn-in to become less dull, though.


 

 Generally not a big 'burn in' fan with tubes BUT I also am a bit quick to judge a tube. I think I need to give any tube a bit more time before giving it a thumbs up or down. The Visseaux 6J5G were an easy call as they sounded killer from the first few notes where other tubes may need more than a little warm up to show their true potential!


----------



## Astral Abyss

luckbad said:


> What happens when you decide you're happy with a tube setup? You roll anyway.


 
  
 I know.  It's a sickness I can't recover from.  I always think, "This tube sounds really, really good.  Oh, but I haven't tried such-and-such yet, everyone says it's wonderful."


----------



## nwavesailor

astral abyss said:


> I know.  It's a sickness I can't recover from.  I always think, "This tube sounds really, really good.  Oh, but I haven't tried such-and-such yet, everyone says it's wonderful."


 
 12 step program for tube buying....................without admitting we have a 'problem'..............we keep looking for the Holy Grail of tubes!
  
 For me, at least for today, it is the Visseaux 6J5G *
  
 *subject to change when a new shiny object distracts me!


----------



## Tunkejazz

When I ordered my Raytheon 6F8G, I got it in a bundle together with a National Union 6F8G too. Never bothered with the latter...until today.
  
 What a beautifully sounding tube!
 I like it better than the Raytheon. A few words that could describe the flavor of the sound: very articulate bass lines (bass guitars sound splendid), great clarity in the mids, and one the largest soundstages I have found in tubes (comparable to the Visseaux).


----------



## nwavesailor

tunkejazz said:


> When I ordered my Raytheon 6F8G, I got it in a bundle together with a National Union 6F8G too. Never bothered with the latter...until today.
> 
> What a beautifully sounding tube!
> I like it better than the Raytheon. A few words that could describe the flavor of the sound: very articulate bass lines (bass guitars sound splendid), great clarity in the mids, and one the largest soundstages I have found in tubes (comparable to the Visseaux).


 

 Another oval plate tube! I have used the NU and Tung Sol 6F8G in the output of a CD player with great results. Do you find the NU 6F8G loses a little top end to the Visseaux 6J5G?
  
 Most of the NU and TS 6F8G's I have are also pretty microphonic but I still use them and like them very much. I guess I better give the NU and TS another (longer) try in the amp!


----------



## Tunkejazz

nwavesailor said:


> Another oval plate tube! I have used the NU and Tung Sol 6F8G in the output of a CD player with great results. Do you find the NU 6F8G loses a little top end to the Visseaux 6J5G?
> 
> Most of the NU and TS 6F8G's I have are also pretty microphonic but I still use them and like them very much. I guess I better give the NU and TS another (longer) try in the amp!


 
 Actually not! This one extends beautifully in the top end without ever becoming harsh. I will go back to the Visseaux later to get a better feeling. But yes, it is microphonic :-S


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## Mechans1

As long as there is no feedback loop, microphony is not a problem, unless you drum on your tubes when they are playing in an amp.  Some say a little microphony creates a more spacious sound.  I was very upset when my vast collection of 6SN7s turned out to be filled with microphonic tubes I knew that 6SN7s had a reputation for being microphonic especially the older  variants.. I discovered the microphony in my tubes when I went from using them as drivers in an integrated  to amplifier duty in a preamp.  
 Fortunately I learned that if I didn't knock the preamp or the tubes themselves, they worked great. Now I don't care as much, except that it does devalue the tubes a bit, but I wasn't buying and selling.  I just bought and kept.  After this tax season is over I might be more adventuresome and get some adapters to hear what other related tubes can do.
 I am surprised that you didn't think the NU would be a really good tube.  What had you heard about Raytheons that drew you to them?


----------



## Tunkejazz

Well...I swapped to the Visseaux and listened for an hour or so.What can I say. The NU 6F8G is very good. The Viss are better.
 The sound is more vivid and clearly punchier in the bass.
 I hate this. Every time I think I found a tube that is  "as good", I switch back and I always prefer their sound.


----------



## nwavesailor

tunkejazz said:


> Well...I swapped to the Visseaux and listened for an hour or so.What can I say. The NU 6F8G is very good. The Viss are better.
> The sound is more vivid and clearly punchier in the bass.
> I hate this. Every time I think I found a tube that is  "as good", I switch back and I always prefer their sound.


 

 Yep, I have quite a few tubes that are ALMOST as good............then I put the Visseaux back in and go................. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
  
 Not day and night, but the 'V' is very special tube that has me under it's spell. The Brimar's (in my short audition) were very close but, IMO, just a hair short as well.


----------



## joespride

Ok, 6C5 certainly seems more spacious (It is a bit microphonic when coaxed) I really like the open spaciousness of the sound, I dont know if I would say it has a larger sound stage
  
 This brings to mind a question.  If you find a pair of tubes that you really like (though not technically as good as Viss) which would you opt to keep
  
 1. Very pleasing almost holographic and considerably lower price
  
 2. Very pleasing Technically Better but cost about 4 times as much


----------



## joespride

Mazda 76 sounding very much in line with Brimar 6j5, also they are pretty quiet Looking like Keepers,  
  
 The 6c5 while more spacious it is also thinner lighter on bass. This tube may appeal to someone looking for soundstage it is certainly more open.  The 6c5 also seems to pull more detail ?


----------



## connieflyer

While I had your tubes originally, the Viss's were slightly better than the others, the 6j5's 6c5's and the 6L5's.  I repaired an adapter I had and while waiting for my Elise to come in, (a few months) I picked up a pair of 6L5's and 6J5's, the five's were Sylvania GT, and I prefer those to the 6l5 and the 6c5. I had those tubes and rolled them all back and forth, and found the Viss's to come out on top, followed by the Sylvania 6j5's.  The Sylvania's I am using now are working quite well.  So much so I do not miss the 4 Viss's as much as I thought I would. It will be interesting to be able to compare the Elise to the Ember directly.  Hope you enjoy your tubes Joe, you have a good set.  I bought the 6C5's mainly because they were the precursor to the 6j5, and I really liked the way they looked, I just never thought they were as good as the others.  Just my opinion, and they were new tubes, so maybe they were not burned in enough.


----------



## DecentLevi

PART ONE OF MY COMPARISON OF *ZENITH 6J5* AND *VISSEAUX 6J5*​ 
PHOTOS​  ​ ​ As you can see, there appears to be two slight variations of Zenith 6J5 cooling fins​  ​ ​ Difference in mica shapes​  ​ ​ Major difference in size / shape of plates​  ​ ​ The Zenith is slightly taller​  
  
  
 Sound impressions coming in part two...


----------



## DecentLevi

COMPARISON OF ​*ZENITH 6J5​* AND ​*VISSEAUX 6J5 - PART TWO​*​  
SOUND IMPRESSIONS
 
OK guys here's my impressions of the Zenith 6J5 compared to the best of my other tubes, especially the Visseaux 6J5... Let me just start out by saying: I have spent the past 3 hours since I've heard them trying to calm down enough to be able to explain this to you... make sure your chair is steady before reading this so that you don't fall over 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Without further ado, here we go:
 
From the first few seconds with the Zenith tubes, I was in total disbelief. The _biggest _'What moment' I can remember experiencing with _home _audio yet (excluding meets). Immediately I noticed there's something completely surreal going on here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 The sound / performance of these Zenith 6J5's were truly good enough to break me away from a deeply involved project I was working on to do some in depth comparisons and write up this review for you guys. And they give me a big smile every time I listened with them, even enough so I was still smiling long after the music stopped. I kid you not.
 
Firstly, curious to see how* the buzz* fares to the Visseaux 6J5, I cranked up the volume to max with no music playing with my lowest impedance headphones plugged directly into the Ember, and - WOW!!! Absolute 99.9998% 'humphrey'! I only heard the faintest_ of the faintest_ buzz, and and levels so insane I would be absolutely guaranteed to never notice it at any normal listening level. At this level, my Visseaux would be buzzing like a hive of bees. So there you have it, your 6J5 buzz solution without the need for the jail-cage / bug zapper / aluminum foil wrap thingy that you may need for the Visseaux. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 
 ​ This lousy photo doesn't begin to do justice. It looks alarmingly better in real life​  
  

*Dynamics*: Without a doubt, the best dynamics I can remember getting out of a tube.
compared to the Visseaux:          harder hitting and more pleasing
compared to the GE 6SN7 GTA:    slightly harder hitting
compared to the Ken-Rad 7193's: noticeably better
  The dynamics are hard hitting with great slam / impact, making it especially great for electronic music / pop.
 
*Mids*: Very lush, audiophile-grade sound. Good enough to make we want to eat it, if it were possible. 
 compared to the Visseaux:          more lush and full
 compared to the GE 6SN7 GTA:   more lush
 compared to the Ken-Rad 7193's: slightly lusher

  I do have to mention however, that the lushness of the Zenith 6J5's is a double-sided sword. On one hand, you get that velvety lush sound, which makes it especially good for acoustic / percussive music such as rock and jazz - it sounds so glorious with these genres, in fact, that you may very well be tempted to invite a neighbor over for a listen! But on the other hand, with about half of the electronic music genres I tested them with, I began to feel like something was overdone. After some critical listening / comparisons, I realized that's because the Zenith 6J5's add quite a bit of harmonic distortion. That's the euphonic tube-saturation that you generally get from tubes. The above comparisons showed me that the GE 6SN7 and Ken-Rad 7193's sounded noticeably more clean / lifelike in the mids, while the Zenith's sounded more colored and musical. Other tubes end up sounding somewhat stale in comparison, especially the Visseaux. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it all comes down to preference and to the music that's playing.
 
*Soundstage*: This, along with the dynamics, I will tell you are without a doubt it's strong points!!! Completely immersive, immaculate 3-D experience!!
 compared to the Visseaux:          at least 15% bigger, and with more lifelike imaging
 compared to the GE 6SN7 GTA:    at least 50% bigger
 compared to the Ken-Rad 7193's: at least 20% bigger

   Yup folks, at least with my pair, the Zenith is king of soundstage out of all the several dozen tubes I've tried on the Ember, including 6DJ8, 6SN7, 7193, and 6J5 classes. There's also something really uncanny with the imagining, it's as if you are closer to 'being there', right in the scene of the recording with these tubes. Speaking of imaging, the instrument separation is spot-on: cohesive and pleasing. Other tubes sounded quite 'closed in' compared to the Zenith. They give a great 'out of your head' experience.
 
*Frequency range* (FR): I would say that overall, these tubes all had about the same FR, with slight variances
 compared to the Visseaux:          same
 compared to the GE 6SN7 GTA:    same, but the GE has slightly fuller mid-bass body / definition
 compared to the Ken-Rad 7193's: the same, IIRC

 
*Neutrality / tonality*: In short, I would say the Visseaux is the most refined in this area, while the GE is more neutral / dry and the 7193's are off kilter. As for the Zenith, like the mids, they are also slightly off kilter. That is to say, that while it sounds quite pleasing, it's more on the 'musical' side. 
 
As mentioned in the mids section, the Zenith has a sound slightly on the euphonic side of neutral. This, and the top-notch dynamics make it sound good for around half of the electronic / pop music I tested it with, but sometimes a little too lush for my tastes. On the other hand, this lushness makes them, IMO to be world-class performers for acoustic leaning music like jazz / rock, and perhaps classical too.
 
Finally on the comparison of Zenith and Visseaux 6J5, I think it's too early to tell the winner. With the Zenith, my ears were telling me they are better, and visa-versa with the Visseaux too. But overall I am slightly leaning toward the Zenith due to the soundstage and impact that are absolutely world-class. I believe with further burn in (prob. at least 140~ hours) the Zenith could very well surpass the Visseaux on all fronts; and that it already has the Visseaux beat on multiple fronts.
 
Disclaimer: YMMV depending on the condition of your Zenith and headphones used. My Zenith tubes were tested in great condition at at 86 & 90 reading (out of min. 65), and my testing was done mostly with the Ember as a preamp to the Liquid Carbon amp in balanced mode with the HD 650 headphones; and also some direct usage with the Ember - and I will tell you the Zenith tubes are no slouch at all when used directly from the Ember.
 
In a word, I call the Visseaux "sublime", and the Zenith a "sonic masterpiece".


----------



## nwavesailor

decentlevi said:


> ​
> 
> In a word, I call the Visseaux "sublime", and the Zenith a "sonic masterpiece".


 
 Nice work, DecentLevi!
  
 The Zenith's were likely produced in far greater numbers than the Visseaux. Looking at 'sold' listings on E-Bay, pricing for nicely matched pairs were far less as recently as December


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## HOWIE13

Well done DecentLevi-great comparisons and the Zeniths are selling just now for about the same we paid for the Visseaux a few months ago.
 I'm not at all surprised by your findings though. A week or so ago I posted that the Zenith 6P5's, which preceded the 6J5's, were excellent in Ember, very similar to the Visseaux 6J5's but I didn't do a thorough comparison like you have done.


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## DecentLevi

Thanks much Howie! I just do it to share the love - I really hope someone else takes my lead to get to experience it's sonic wonder - one that is growing on me! And I'm sure someone can find a lower price than eBay by scouring the web


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## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> While I had your tubes originally, the Viss's were slightly better than the others, the 6j5's 6c5's and the 6L5's.  I repaired an adapter I had and while waiting for my Elise to come in, (a few months) I picked up a pair of 6L5's and 6J5's, the five's were Sylvania GT, and I prefer those to the 6l5 and the 6c5. I had those tubes and rolled them all back and forth, and found the Viss's to come out on top, followed by the Sylvania 6j5's.  The Sylvania's I am using now are working quite well.  So much so I do not miss the 4 Viss's as much as I thought I would. It will be interesting to be able to compare the Elise to the Ember directly.  Hope you enjoy your tubes Joe, you have a good set.  I bought the 6C5's mainly because they were the precursor to the 6j5, and I really liked the way they looked, I just never thought they were as good as the others.  Just my opinion, and they were new tubes, so maybe they were not burned in enough.


 
 That's a very long time to have to wait for your new amp.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Do they ask you to pay in advance as well?


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Thanks much Howie! I just do it to share the love - I really hope someone else takes my lead to get to experience it's sonic wonder - one that is growing on me! And I'm sure someone can find a lower price than eBay by scouring the web


 
 I really didn't know much about Zenith as it's not big in Europe but it seems they invented the wireless remote control and they have very good provenance.


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## nykobing

howie13 said:


> I really didn't know much about Zenith as it's not big in Europe but it seems they invented the wireless remote control and they have very good provenance.


 
  
 They were just a rebrander, every Zenith I have had was made by Sylvania, I am sure they used other manufacturers as well.


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## joespride

nykobing said:


> They were just a rebrander, every Zenith I have had was made by Sylvania, I am sure they used other manufacturers as well.


 
 I just read a comment stating the same thing ,  Zenith 6j5 a rebranded sylvania


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## joespride

Can someone answer this
  
 Is 6sn7 considered 6 volt or 12 volt design ??


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## HOWIE13

joespride said:


> Can someone answer this
> 
> Is 6sn7 considered 6 volt or 12 volt design ??


 
 6V
  
 http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0517.htm


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## HOWIE13

nykobing said:


> They were just a rebrander, every Zenith I have had was made by Sylvania, I am sure they used other manufacturers as well.


 
 Did Sylvania also invent the wireless remote control then or was that really Zenith?


----------



## joespride

Thank you


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## HOWIE13

joespride said:


> I just read a comment stating the same thing ,  Zenith 6j5 a rebranded sylvania


 
 Well we have already discussed Sylvania 6J5's on this Forum and the impressions were mixed, although they may have been straight bottled shape not coke bottle shaped tubes.
 There are relatively cheap Sylvania 6J5's on eBay just now but if Zenith used other brands too who knows what we are buying.
 Actually, I read that Sylvania shared techincal expertise with Visseaux at one time so the plot thickens even more.


----------



## nwavesailor

While I appreciate the extensive evaluation and believe the results DecentLevi found comparing the Zenith 6J5G to the Visseaux, I will not be chasing the Zenith's. I've spent too much money and time over the years hunting for tubes that might be branded X and are really made by Y. Too early in the detective game for me to chase with a lot of uncertainty. Perhaps the variances of the internal structures are insignificant as the pair DecentLevi tested were not identical, I don't know. 
  
 I may be a bit odd in this regard, but I want a pair of tubes to have identical internal structures if for no other reason than me (OCD?) questioning if L and R really do sound identical.
  
 Do some scouring on the web and you will find NOS Zenith 6J5G's that may have the same magic as Levi found last night!


----------



## HOWIE13

nwavesailor said:


> While I appreciate the extensive evaluation and believe the results DecentLevi found comparing the Zenith 6J5G to the Visseaux, I will not be chasing the Zenith's. I've spent too much money and time over the years hunting for tubes that might be branded X and are really made by Y. Too early in the detective game for me to chase with a lot of uncertainty. Perhaps the variances of the internal structures are insignificant as the pair DecentLevi tested were not identical, I don't know.
> 
> I may be a bit odd in this regard, but I want a pair of tubes to have identical internal structures if for no other reason than me (OCD?) questioning if L and R really do sound identical.
> 
> Do some scouring on the web and you will find NOS Zenith 6J5G's that may have the same magic as Levi found last night!


 
 I read that all the main USA manufacturers re-branded between themselves, especially in the 40-50's when tubes were in heavy demand.


----------



## nwavesailor

howie13 said:


> I read that all the main USA manufacturers re-branded between themselves, especially in the 40-50's when tubes were in heavy demand.


 

 Yes, that is true. That's what makes chasing 'brands' difficult. The key, IMO, is identifying internal construction details of a great sounding tube (valve for you Howie!) and when that  tube was made, not the brand on the base.


----------



## HOWIE13

nwavesailor said:


> Yes, that is true. That's what makes chasing 'brands' difficult. The key, IMO, is identifying internal construction details of a great sounding tube (valve for you Howie!) and when that  tube was made, not the brand on the base.


 
 Absolutely, it's such a pity so many of those who worked in the industry are no longer around to help identify the various internal structures.


----------



## joespride

nwavesailor said:


> While I appreciate the extensive evaluation and believe the results DecentLevi found comparing the Zenith 6J5G to the Visseaux, I will not be chasing the Zenith's. I've spent too much money and time over the years hunting for tubes that might be branded X and are really made by Y. Too early in the detective game for me to chase with a lot of uncertainty. Perhaps the variances of the internal structures are insignificant as the pair DecentLevi tested were not identical, I don't know.
> 
> I may be a bit odd in this regard, but I want a pair of tubes to have identical internal structures if for no other reason than me (OCD?) questioning if L and R really do sound identical.
> 
> Do some scouring on the web and you will find NOS Zenith 6J5G's that may have the same magic as Levi found last night!


 
 I have noticed MANY of the 6j5 being sold as pair will have different construction which I am also NOT a fan of.  The sellers will call them a pair but are careful NOT to say MATCHING
  
 If we have different construction tubes how are we to say which tube is producing the desired SQ ?,  Its great if someone finds a mismatch pair they are happy with but that could easily get into needle in the haystack type search and I doubt you would recoup your investment upon resell, I know I wont buy a non matching pair most people I know in tubes would not consider a non matching pair either


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## Luckbad

I agree: If I'm going to FrankenProject my amps, there's no way I'm doing so without identical tubes. The mismatched pairs are very common among rare and/or popular tubes.
  
 I have a "pair" of RCA smoked glass tubes that I'm not selling as a pair because they are _not _a pair. They look slightly different even if I can't tell a difference in the sound.
  
 I'm kinda trying to get off the tube train since I'm happy with the sound I'm getting without any fancy adapters. The itch though... the itch...


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> I have noticed MANY of the 6j5 being sold as pair will have different construction which I am also NOT a fan of.  The sellers will call them a pair but are careful NOT to say MATCHING
> 
> If we have different construction tubes how are we to say which tube is producing the desired SQ ?,  Its great if someone finds a mismatch pair they are happy with but that could easily get into needle in the haystack type search and I doubt you would recoup your investment upon resell, I know I wont buy a non matching pair most people I know in tubes would not consider a non matching pair either


 

 Yep, that's why you may not be taking a big risk buying real (?) NOS Brimar and Vissaeux 6J5G's from a known tube dealer. I don't think I have seen a 'matched pair' of Brimar or Visseaux listed, again from a known tube dealer, that were not identical construction in that pair. I'm sure I will though at some point. It is common to see some other UK production L63 / 6J5G tubes/valves (Osram, Cosser, GEC) mismatched and still go for big $$$.


----------



## connieflyer

howie13 said:


> That's a very long time to have to wait for your new amp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I asked for a split payment and got 50% percent down 50% when ready to ship.  Nice folks to deal with and their amps have quite a following, here on Head-Fi as well as other forums.  Lead times for the really expensive amps can be over 10-12 months, which I would never do.  The Elise tube swapping and adapter changing is quite in vogue there. The one member has gone from two power tubes to six with an adapter custom made by our favorite China maker. Still enjoy the Ember, and now with the Senn 700's even more so. Putting my 650's up for sale tonite, will start here on Head-Fi and then go to Ebay next week.  Come on over and check us out Howie, would be glad to have you there, they are very active on that forum.  Good listening to you, my friend.


----------



## HOWIE13

connieflyer said:


> I asked for a split payment and got 50% percent down 50% when ready to ship.  Nice folks to deal with and their amps have quite a following, here on Head-Fi as well as other forums.  Lead times for the really expensive amps can be over 10-12 months, which I would never do.  The Elise tube swapping and adapter changing is quite in vogue there. The one member has gone from two power tubes to six with an adapter custom made by our favorite China maker. Still enjoy the Ember, and now with the Senn 700's even more so. Putting my 650's up for sale tonite, will start here on Head-Fi and then go to Ebay next week.  Come on over and check us out Howie, would be glad to have you there, they are very active on that forum.  Good listening to you, my friend.


 
 Cheers, Don.
 I went to the thread but when I saw how large it had grown I was rather put off, as I didn't know where to start, but those amps look very interesting. I'll keep looking at it though as it increases our knowledge of different tubes. I hope your amp, and I think DecentLevi has ordered one too, comes soon so we can have your valued comparisons.
 I've been listening with Horizon recently and really miss the auto bias. I asked Jeremy if he could adapt Horizon but nothing is in the pipeline. The other thing is I've re-discovered my HD600's after 3 years of hardly using them. They now seem just right with Ember, maybe my ears, or brain, are changing. You have a good weekend too.


----------



## Luckbad

howie13 said:


> Cheers, Don.
> I went to the thread but when I saw how large it had grown I was rather put off, as I didn't know where to start, but those amps look very interesting. I'll keep looking at it though as it increases our knowledge of different tubes. I hope your amp, and I think DecentLevi has ordered one too, comes soon so we can have your valued comparisons.
> I've been listening with Horizon recently and really miss the auto bias. I asked Jeremy if he could adapt Horizon but nothing is in the pipeline. The other thing is I've re-discovered my HD600's after 3 years of hardly using them. They now seem just right with Ember, maybe my ears, or brain, are changing. You have a good weekend too.


 
  
 I wish I didn't prefer the Horizon/Sunrise to the Ember, specifically because of auto bias.
  
 That said, the limitation of having to semi-manually bias means I've focused down my tube rolling somewhat.
  
 With the Ember (which is still in front of me...), I can't resist rolling a tube or two every night.


----------



## DecentLevi

Interesting to hear you folks are talkin' about the Elise. The first time I mentioned it some of you seemed put off at the idea of a competing amp. Anyway after months of reading thousands of posts all with unequivocally amazing results I took a leap and ordered it on blind faith. Later this month when I get mine, I plan to do a comparison between it and the Zana Deux (by memory anyway), and of course the Ember. But I take it you guys would be offended if I post that on this thread? So maybe I'll just send the link to it. BTW the Elise thread has slowed down a lot and is now easier to follow, if you'd like.
  
 I more/less disagree with the need for precisely matched tubes. Slight differences like fin shape, tiny chipped off bits, etc. shouldn't alter the sound very dramatically if at all. I understand how a matched pair would give you a better idea of how it effects the sound, but the picture you get from a slightly mismatched pair really won't differ too greatly from a perfectly matched pair. Some people even mix & match completely different brands and occasionally different voltages (careful with this one) within the same dual pair and get great results.
  
 Anyway the reason I made such an effort to compare the Visseaux to the Zenith 6J5's yesterday was in effort to see if we can outdo what is considered the king for the Ember, with the Zenith as one that is extremely comparable... Day two with the Zenith and I'm happy enough to have not switched back to the Visseaux yet.
  
 PS- I'm not saying it's better (yet), just a different flavor


----------



## HOWIE13

luckbad said:


> I wish I didn't prefer the Horizon/Sunrise to the Ember, specifically because of auto bias.
> 
> That said, the limitation of having to semi-manually bias means I've focused down my tube rolling somewhat.
> 
> With the Ember (which is still in front of me...), I can't resist rolling a tube or two every night.


 
 Well I noticed a few days ago you were doing comparisons and I didn't want to say my own preferences until you had had a chance to do your own, but between the Horizon and Ember, I also prefer the Horizon, excellent though the Ember is. I can't quantify why, but the sound is just more euphonic and very natural-I know that sounds so vague, but the English language limits me explaining any better. There is a German word * 'innigkeit'* which gets close to what I mean-a kind of deep incandescence, an intimate warmth, emanating from the Horizon.
 Problem is it's impossible to access the bias screws of the Horizon with the dual single octal adapter in place which is such a pain as it means taking the top plate off and on each time you check the bias.
 Like you I find it's such addictive fun to tube roll Ember though. I wake up each morning thinking only about which tubes to roll-sad really, but who cares, especially on a Saturday morning.


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Interesting to hear you folks are talkin' about the Elise. The first time I mentioned it some of you seemed put off at the idea of a competing amp. Anyway after months of reading thousands of posts all with unequivocally amazing results I took a leap and ordered it on blind faith. Later this month when I get mine, I plan to do a comparison between it and the Zana Deux (by memory anyway), and of course the Ember. But I take it you guys would be offended if I post that on this thread? So maybe I'll just send the link to it. BTW the Elise thread has slowed down a lot and is now easier to follow, if you'd like.
> 
> I more/less disagree with the need for precisely matched tubes. Slight differences like fin shape, tiny chipped off bits, etc. shouldn't alter the sound very dramatically if at all. I understand how a matched pair would give you a better idea of how it effects the sound, but the picture you get from a slightly mismatched pair really won't differ too greatly from a perfectly matched pair. Some people even mix & match completely different brands and occasionally different voltages (careful with this one) within the same dual pair and get great results.
> 
> ...


 
 I would be most interested with the comparison of amps-doesn't bother me where it's posted really.
 Matching tubes is interesting and I tend not to look too much at the internal construction as long as they are reasonably similar, like shape, round or flat plate, maybe the getter, and reasonably matched for date.
 I have identical looking tubes which have wide variations in cathode emission and amplification factors and which are poorly matched channel wise, yet tubes which are not completely identical, which are perfectly matched electrically and are perfectly balanced.
 The proof is, as always, with the ears and not the eyes.


----------



## nwavesailor

Quote: 





howie13 said:


> I would be most interested with the comparison of amps-doesn't bother me where it's posted really.
> 
> _I would welcome your comparison between the amps as well, DecentLevi!_
> 
> ...


----------



## Luckbad

howie13 said:


> Well I noticed a few days ago you were doing comparisons and I didn't want to say my own preferences until you had had a chance to do your own, but between the Horizon and Ember, I also prefer the Horizon, excellent though the Ember is. I can't quantify why, but the sound is just more euphonic and very natural-I know that sounds so vague, but the English language limits me explaining any better. There is a German word * 'innigkeit'* which gets close to what I mean-a kind of deep incandescence, an intimate warmth, emanating from the Horizon.
> Problem is it's impossible to access the bias screws of the Horizon with the dual single octal adapter in place which is such a pain as it means taking the top plate off and on each time you check the bias.
> Like you I find it's such addictive fun to tube roll Ember though. I wake up each morning thinking only about which tubes to roll-sad really, but who cares, especially on a Saturday morning.


 
  
 Thanks for holding back your impressions. Innigkeit is a great word! Je ne sais quoi is another way to describe why I prefer the Horizon and Sunrise to the Ember.
  
 Frankly, it's like trying to describe to someone why I prefer R/2R dac chips to Delta-Sigma, though it's a less pronounced difference.
  
 Perhaps a better way is to describe why I prefer non-oversampled (NOS) R/2R dacs to oversampled R/2R dacs.
  
 Concinnity is another ridiculous word that nobody uses.
  
 A natural euphony, musical elegance, organic timbre, romantic delicacy.
  
 The Ember comes close and is much more convenient with its auto-bias and ability to be used with pretty much any headphone in existence.
  
 But something about the harmonious musicality of the Horizon and Sunrise draws me to their sound. If I have the Ember and either one of the other amps sitting next to each other (like I do right now), I always use the non-Ember option.
  
 If I didn't have the other two, I'd be perfectly content with the Ember.
  
 Everything on the Horizon/Sunrise is just slightly more effortless, slightly more immersive, slightly more poignant intimacy of feeling.


----------



## HOWIE13

My eyes are not an issue because I close them,(honestly I do) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:


nwavesailor said:


>


----------



## HOWIE13

luckbad said:


> Thanks for holding back your impressions. Innigkeit is a great word! Je ne sais quoi is another way to describe why I prefer the Horizon and Sunrise to the Ember.
> 
> Frankly, it's like trying to describe to someone why I prefer R/2R dac chips to Delta-Sigma, though it's a less pronounced difference.
> 
> ...


 
 How right you are about R/2R DAC's too.


----------



## mandrake50

This may be off topic, but I am not sure where else to ask. Several people seem to use the term "Horizon/Sunrise" when comparing to the Ember.
 I just got an Ember a week or so ago. I have been listening to it pretty much exclusively. I also have two Sunrise III amps. One I often use at work, the other for a bedroom setup. I too limit tube rolling because of the extra steps of setting the bias. I have considered picking up a Horizon to check out. The question is, are the Horizon and Sunrise really so similar that they can be considered as a single group. In other words, would it be worth picking up a Horizon when I have a couple of Sunrise IIIs already?


----------



## Luckbad

mandrake50 said:


> This may be off topic, but I am not sure where else to ask. Several people seem to use the term "Horizon/Sunrise" when comparing to the Ember.
> I just got an Ember a week or so ago. I have been listening to it pretty much exclusively. I also have two Sunrise III amps. One I often use at work, the other for a bedroom setup. I too limit tube rolling because of the extra steps of setting the bias. I have considered picking up a Horizon to check out. The question is, are the Horizon and Sunrise really so similar that they can be considered as a single group. In other words, would it be worth picking up a Horizon when I have a couple of Sunrise IIIs already?




They're the same PCB but the Horizon has more robust parts and a higher impedance it's intended for. 

The answer is that it depends on your headphones. If you have 300 Ohm+ cans the Horizon with the Supercharger option is slightly better than the Sunrise.

In reality they sound almost exactly the same.


----------



## mandrake50

luckbad said:


> They're the same PCB but the Horizon has more robust parts and a higher impedance it's intended for.
> 
> The answer is that it depends on your headphones. If you have 300 Ohm+ cans the Horizon with the Supercharger option is slightly better than the Sunrise.
> 
> In reality they sound almost exactly the same.


 

 Thanks for that. A reminder of what I read on the Garage 1217 site a while ago. That is what I get for writing before really thinking.
 I do have the Senn HD 580, 600, and 650. But the Sunrise does fine with those for my use. I more often use the H10 or Liquid Carbon with those anyway.
 ATM I am pretty happy spending time with the Ember and Visseaux tubes. I do really like the ease with which I can roll tubes on the Ember.
 When I have time I want to plug the dual 6J5 tubes into the Sunrise III and check out the differences between the amps. I do struggle with doing comparisons between tubes due to the time it takes to swap them out and my precise audio memory being so short term. Much more so when trying to swap, re-bias, and match levels.


----------



## Luckbad

mandrake50 said:


> Thanks for that. A reminder of what I read on the Garage 1217 site a while ago. That is what I get for writing before really thinking.
> I do have the Senn HD 580, 600, and 650. But the Sunrise does fine with those for my use. I more often use the H10 or Liquid Carbon with those anyway.
> ATM I am pretty happy spending time with the Ember and Visseaux tubes. I do really like the ease with which I can roll tubes on the Ember.
> When I have time I want to plug the dual 6J5 tubes into the Sunrise III and check out the differences between the amps. I do struggle with doing comparisons between tubes due to the time it takes to swap them out and my precise audio memory being so short term. Much more so when trying to swap, re-bias, and match levels.


 
  
 I hear ya. I use the Ember for quick changes and deciphering differences between tubes.
  
 Once I narrow it down a bit, I use the Sunrise or Horizon to find longer term listening impressions.
  
 Now that I've arrived at some preferred tubes, it's time to either send the Ember home or sell it to someone in need.


----------



## nwavesailor

luckbad said:


> Now that I've arrived at some preferred tubes, it's time to either send the Ember home or sell it to someone in need.
> 
> Where is the Ember's 'home'???


----------



## Luckbad

The Ember's "home" is at Garage1217. I can still return it because I just got it a couple weeks ago.


----------



## nwavesailor

luckbad said:


> The Ember's "home" is at Garage1217. I can still return it because I just got it a couple weeks ago.


 

 Got it!


----------



## joespride

Heads Up, Selling Ember (Keeping my starlight as it is plenty for my HE500) 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/800847/garage-1217-ember-with-spare-tube-and-chassis


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Heads Up, Selling Ember (Keeping my starlight as it is plenty for my HE500)
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/800847/garage-1217-ember-with-spare-tube-and-chassis


 

 Best of luck with your sale, joespride. At that offering price, it should be gone in no time.
  
 Don't know that there is a Starlight / Sunrise forum, but I hope you continue to post here with your tube impressions and adventures!


----------



## DavidA

joespride said:


> Heads Up, Selling Ember (Keeping my starlight as it is plenty for my HE500)
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/800847/garage-1217-ember-with-spare-tube-and-chassis


 
 That is quite a good deal, wish I was in the market for one.


----------



## joespride

The Wife is pushing me to hang on to it (she's a good gal)....................Setting here listening to the Visseaux for the first time in a week or more Sounds GREAT, Though better they are not night and day better to my old Ears ( staying here )


----------



## joespride

Yep felt really bad about giving up the ember and with the wifes support I have pulled the offer,  Ember will be staying here with me


----------



## DavidA

joespride said:


> The Wife is pushing me to hang on to it (she's a good gal)....................Setting here listening to the Visseaux for the first time in a week or more Sounds GREAT, Though better they are not night and day better to my old Ears ( staying here )


 
 Does she want you to keep it due to the LED under the tube?  My girlfriend and her friends just love the look of the Ember (I have the clear top)
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 LED color is pink


----------



## Luckbad

joespride said:


> Yep felt really bad about giving up the ember and with the wifes support I have pulled the offer,  Ember will be staying here with me


 
  
 In the entire history of my audio addiction, my wife has never insisted I not sell something. You should send this story to Jeremy.


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Yep felt really bad about giving up the ember and with the wifes support I have pulled the offer,  Ember will be staying here with me


 

 So she is 'letting' you keep the Ember AND Starlight as well as 3 pairs of Visseaux and 2 (?I lost count w/o a scorecard) Brimars............
 If so, would you have her contact my bride?
  
 I assume the Starlight also plays well with the Visseaux 6J5G's?


----------



## d3rrlck

While I consider my Visseaux 6J5G a pretty balance tube and jack of all trades, these fivre 6C5G takes the 6J5G house sound into fun side. The best 400i planar bass I've heard out of these tubes. Bass is bigger and visceral (than the Vs), mids is lush warm and lovely sounding, details and clarity are pretty amazing. The treble seems a bit rolled off than the Vs. Soundstage is about the same with the typical 6J5, and comparable to the Vs big expansive soundstage with lots of realistic space.
  
 Best of all, it is HUMPHREY without a cage


----------



## joespride

nwavesailor said:


> So she is 'letting' you keep the Ember AND Starlight as well as 3 pairs of Visseaux and 2 (?I lost count w/o a scorecard) Brimars............
> If so, would you have her contact my bride?
> 
> I assume the Starlight also plays well with the Visseaux 6J5G's?


 
 Yea, Audio has been my 1 vice over the years and I would guess she accepts that above all the other available vices out there like Harley's,Cars, Drinking, womanizing, drugs etc... etc... etc...
  
 At least with the tubes I should be able to recoup most of my $$$ I was never able to say that with the Harleys any custom work on those was pretty much lost


----------



## joespride

d3rrlck said:


> While I consider my Visseaux 6J5G a pretty balance tube and jack of all trades, these fivre 6C5G takes the 6J5G house sound into fun side. The best 400i planar bass I've heard out of these tubes. Bass is bigger and visceral (than the Vs), mids is lush warm and lovely sounding, details and clarity are pretty amazing. The treble seems a bit rolled off than the Vs. Soundstage is about the same with the typical 6J5, and comparable to the Vs big expansive soundstage with lots of realistic space.
> 
> Best of all, it is HUMPHREY without a cage


 
 Very Nice now I have a new tube to scout out


----------



## d3rrlck

joespride said:


> Very Nice now I have a new tube to scout out


 
  
 They're cheaper than the Vs too


----------



## nwavesailor

d3rrlck said:


> They're cheaper than the Vs too


 

 Not for long..........
  
 d3rrick is EVIL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 He has just presented the latest new (NOS?) 'shiny object' to chase.
  
 MUST..............RESIST...............BUYING.................MORE..............TUBES


----------



## lalala6

Just listed my tubes for sale in the classifieds, if anyone is interested:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/800970/set-of-5-tubes-12au7-6dj8-6n6p-6sn7-12sn7


----------



## joespride

d3rrlck said:


> They're cheaper than the Vs too


 
 How about a link to some cheaper ?? I have not been able to find any cheaper


----------



## d3rrlck

joespride said:


> How about a link to some cheaper ?? I have not been able to find any cheaper


 
  
 I got it from the italian seller. He used to sell a a couple of matched pair but looks like both are sold now. He got 4 matched pairs though, might need someone willing to share the cost/pair with you.
  
  
 85 bucks shipped per pair
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-6C5G-6C5GT-FIVRE-NOS-MATCHED-Tube-Rohre-Valvula-Lampe-TSF-Valvola-/391398544131?hash=item5b212bd303:g:l00AAOSwLN5WiPeY


----------



## nwavesailor

d3rrlck said:


> I got it from the italian seller. He used to sell a a couple of matched pair but looks like both are sold now. He got 4 matched pairs though, might need someone willing to share the cost/pair with you.
> 
> 
> 85 bucks shipped per pair
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-6C5G-6C5GT-FIVRE-NOS-MATCHED-Tube-Rohre-Valvula-Lampe-TSF-Valvola-/391398544131?hash=item5b212bd303:g:l00AAOSwLN5WiPeY


 
  
 sorry, I posted in error.


----------



## sneaky415

I have both the Visseaux and the Fivres. The Fivres win in bass and sub-bass extension but the Visseaux wins in the other areas, it just sounds more correct while the Fivres sound a bit distorted in comparison. My advice is to save your money if you already have the Visseaux.


----------



## nwavesailor

sneaky415 said:


> I have both the Visseaux and the Fivres. The Fivres win in bass and sub-bass extension but the Visseaux wins in the other areas, it just sounds more correct while the Fivres sound a bit distorted. My advice is to save your money if you already have the Visseaux.


 

 d3rrlck is playing the part of the 'good cop' and sneaky415 is the 'bad' cop!


----------



## sneaky415

nwavesailor said:


> d3rrlck is playing the part of the 'good cop' and sneaky415 is the 'bad' cop!


 
 Im actually trying to be the good cop and save your wallets 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But don't get me wrong here, the Fivre is a very enjoyable tube and I can listen to it for hours .It's just that it is competing with "creme de la creme" of tubes.
  
 I was just listening to the Visseaux's and admiring how accurate it reproduces female voices. Listen to this:


----------



## nwavesailor

sneaky415 said:


> Im actually trying to be the good cop and save your wallets
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## sneaky415

They don't have a lot of distortion, just a bit when compared to the Visseaux. Everything is relative. The Fivres will help you with the bass for sure but I don't think they will do much for the treble. Anyhow its a fine tube so I don't think you will be dissapointed.
  
 In that video I linked to the Visseaux reproduces that voice so well but the Fivres has got such powerful and deep sub-bass of that instrument, which to choose, which to choose? Hard decision....


----------



## d3rrlck

sneaky415 said:


> They don't have a lot of distortion, just a bit when compared to the Visseaux. Everything is relative. The Fivres will help you with the bass for sure but I don't think they will do much for the treble. Anyhow its a fine tube so I don't think you will be dissapointed.
> 
> In that video I linked to the Visseaux reproduces that voice so well but the Fivres has got such powerful and deep sub-bass of that instrument, which to choose, which to choose? Hard decision....


 
  
 I actually heard that little bit of distortion when I set my mojo lineout to 2v using the 400i. I'll see what it can do when mojo is set to 3V, and report back here. It seems weird that I'm not hearing that with the TH-X00.


----------



## d3rrlck

nwavesailor said:


> _I have pretty modest hp, HifiMan HE 400S, and the bass is a bit weak. Having said that, they are also a bit rolled off in the treble. I have found the 'V''s to help on both ends of sound reproduction. I guess I'll see what the 'new shiny object'  Firve  6C5G do.............. other than look VERY cool!_


 
  
 Have you tried changing the pads to focuspad? I have 400S with focuspad and grill modded, wife likes how it sounds so I gave it to her, in exchange she gave me reason to buy the 400i during the hifiman sale


----------



## DavidA

sneaky415 said:


> Im actually trying to be the good cop and save your wallets
> 
> 
> 
> ...





 Nice, wasn't using my Ember, from computer headphone out with SR-60i drivers in walnut wood cups


----------



## nwavesailor

d3rrlck said:


> Have you tried changing the pads to focuspad? I have 400S with focuspad and grill modded, wife likes how it sounds so I gave it to her, in exchange she gave me reason to buy the 400i during the hifiman sale


 

 Yes, on the 400S I did the grill mod, tried FocusPads 'A' and then settled on Brainwavz angled pads. I think they sound far better than OEM configuration but still a bit rolled off in the highs and could use a little more bass.
  
 If you get a moment...........(and if your bride allows it)
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..............could you give the HE400S a short listen using the Fivre 6C5G and see if you are hearing the same distortion you may be hearing in the 400i?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## joespride

Ok who has heard the Shuguang CV181 In the Ember,  Impressions please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 The search shows u a few comments but nothing commital, I like the idea of a single tube and I am looking for a warmish sound sig. I may have to get one and try it out. If it is equivilant of some of the better 6sn7 I may just be done and selling off some others


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Ok who has heard the Shuguang CV181 In the Ember,  Impressions please
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 There are lots of 6SN7's & 6F8G (single tube with an adapter) that most find better than those current production tubes. (I have heard the CV 181 but do not own them)
  
 I've tried Sylvania, RCA, GE, Raytheon, and Ken Rad (and some other) 6SN7's as well as  Tung Sol & National Union 6F8G's to see if they are as good or better than the Visseaux.
  
 One mans opinion, some are close (6F8G) but I am still drawn to the sound of the Visseaux 6J5G. If I had never heard the 'V's I would be fine with many other tubes..................but I HAVE!


----------



## connieflyer

joespride said:


> Ok who has heard the Shuguang CV181 In the Ember,  Impressions please
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 This from an early thread on a Woo amp....

 [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/4/47/100x100px-LS-47ef8059_Headphone_Girl_by_ziksan.jpeg[/img] 
 
Seamaster




 
offline
 
1,962 Posts. Joined 10/2004
Location: Seattle Area
 

  Please don't wast your money on Treasure CV181. looking for round plate 6F8G is the way to go. But now days 6F8G are not cheap anymore, because more and more people realize they sound great, and price has been jumping up lately

   My wallet hates me!


----------



## nwavesailor

connieflyer said:


> This from an early thread on a Woo amp....
> 
> [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/4/47/100x100px-LS-47ef8059_Headphone_Girl_by_ziksan.jpeg[/img]
> 
> ...


 

 Yes, Seamaster (and some other HeadFi members) have tried more 6SN7's than I have and settled on the 6F8G's.  Other than being somewhat microphonic as a group, they sound great! You DO want the round (oval) plate version of either the TS or NU 6F8G. Great tubes but not great enough to beat (IMO) the V's.


----------



## sneaky415

I just noticed that the Fivre 6c5g has an extensive soundstage. Sounds quite remarkable listening to classical music. If thats your kind of music I can recommend it.


----------



## joespride

Lately I find myself with the urge to simplify (again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) I have been pretty satisfied with the 6sn7 while I agree the Visseaux, Brimars, & others are no doubt better.  I have an Obsessive personality and I get to a point where I enter Critical Mode and everything I listen to becomes an exercise in futility. No enjoyment just trying to hear the last enth of detail / nuance.  I have to put the brakes on from time to time and pull myself outta that hole
  
 So I am now settled on dialing back bit,  I am totally enjoying my RCA bottlecap 6sn7 (bass is SLAMMING) yes I loose some top end and some clarity +, But I gain sanity 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I also get to listen to the music and stop worrying about best of the best ETC.......
  
 Anyone looking for Visseaux, Brimar, Mazda, adapters etc... shoot me a PM


----------



## lalala6

joespride said:


> Lately I find myself with the urge to simplify (again :veryevil: ) I have been pretty satisfied with the 6sn7 while I agree the Visseaux, Brimars, & others are no doubt better.  I have an Obsessive personality and I get to a point where I enter Critical Mode and everything I listen to becomes an exercise in futility. No enjoyment just trying to hear the last enth of detail / nuance.  I have to put the brakes on from time to time and pull myself outta that hole
> 
> So I am now settled on dialing back bit,  I am totally enjoying my RCA bottlecap 6sn7 (bass is SLAMMING) yes I loose some top end and some clarity +, But I gain sanity   I also get to listen to the music and stop worrying about best of the best ETC.......
> 
> Anyone looking for Visseaux, Brimar, Mazda, adapters etc... shoot me a PM



You got PM.


----------



## Luckbad

It's a good place, joespride.

I stopped rolling as well. For the most part. 

I already have most of my DAC tube collection for sale.

Next I'm putting up most of my amp tubes. Already sold the Ken-Rad and have RCA 6SN7s for sale.


----------



## nwavesailor

sneaky415 said:


> I just noticed that the Fivre 6c5g has an extensive soundstage. Sounds quite remarkable listening to classical music. If thats your kind of music I can recommend it.


 

 Thanks, sneaky415!
 Why do you feel the Fivre 6C5G do so well with classical compared to other types of music? I guess I'll know soon enough with them in route from Italy.
  
 Did you get a second Visseaux 6J5g to replace the one you had that was 'buzzing'?


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Lately I find myself with the urge to simplify (again
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Tempted to snag a THIRD pair of your 'V's to stash away.............but with the Fivre 6C5G's in route, I need to take a breath myself and LISTEN to what I have, not what I could have!!!!!!!! The last thing I need is more tubes.
  
 With the 'V's getting scarce, you may want to think about keeping a pair of those for when you fall off the 'tube wagon' and want to hear the 'V's just one more time!!!


----------



## sneaky415

nwavesailor said:


> Thanks, sneaky415!
> Why do you feel the Fivre 6C5G do so well with classical compared to other types of music? I guess I'll know soon enough with them in route from Italy.
> 
> Did you get a second Visseaux 6J5g to replace the one you had that was 'buzzing'?


 
 If you think about a concert hall you have a really large stage and all the various instrument classes are placed in various positions. With the Fivres huge soundstage you can hear the instruments playing from all various positions so it feels almost like being at a concert. With more modern music the stage is smaller so the listening experience doesnt benefit as much from that kind of tube. Also the good bass gives a real full bodied sound to instruments like cellos.
  
 I managed to get a good deal for three Visseauxs so hopefully I will have two good pairs soon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Looking forward to reading your impressions with the Fivres.


----------



## nwavesailor

sneaky415 said:


> If you think about a concert hall you have a really large stage and all the various instrument classes are placed in various positions. With the Fivres huge soundstage you can hear the instruments playing from all various positions so it feels almost like being at a concert. With more modern music the stage is smaller so the listening experience doesnt benefit as much from that kind of tube. Also the good bass gives a real full bodied sound to instruments like cellos.
> 
> I managed to get a good deal for three Visseauxs so hopefully I will have two good pairs soon
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks sneaky415!
  
 I guess I could use the 'V's for this genre and perhaps the 'F's for other types just as some folks use different hp. Looking forward to trying the Fivres. The only tubes that have come very close to the Visseaux were the Brimars & they, IMO, were just a bit rolled off. If I had bright or a very detailed hp, the Brimars would be very nice tubes.


----------



## WilliamLeonhart

I have a question: Can the default Project Ember supports EF95/5654/6ak5 tube family? If not, can it be modded to support these tubes?


----------



## TraceStar

williamleonhart said:


> I have a question: Can the default Project Ember supports EF95/5654/6ak5 tube family? If not, can it be modded to support these tubes?




Those are pentodes. The Ember uses dual triodes.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## DecentLevi

A pentode tube would need to be used as a pair with a dual adapter to be compatible with the Ember, in order to get a stereo signal.
 Compatibility however depends on the voltage specs of the tube and if a dual adapter is available however, or if one can be made as I have seen others to for other amps.


----------



## WilliamLeonhart

Thanks for the replies. 


decentlevi said:


> A pentode tube would need to be used as a pair with a dual adapter to be compatible with the Ember, in order to get a stereo signal.
> Compatibility however depends on the voltage specs of the tube and if a dual adapter is available however, or if one can be made as I have seen others to for other amps.


 

*Base*Miniatur-7-Pin-Base B7G, USA 1940*Filament*Vf 6.3 Volts / If 0.175 Ampere / Indirect / Parallel, (AC/DC) /
 I've got these infos for the EF95 tubes. Is an adaptor possible to make so that they'll be compatible with the Ember?


----------



## DecentLevi

Well the voltage specs seem compatible, however there are no adapters for these with the Ember! This seems like a question Ms. XuLing should know, or poss. to build a custom adapter for you


----------



## joespride

Well the Shuguang CV181-Z 50 year treasures are a treat so far.  Nice detail retrieval, pretty balanced overall


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Well the Shuguang CV181-Z 50 year treasures are a treat so far.  Nice detail retrieval, pretty balanced overall


 

 Welcome back my friend!!!!!!!!!


----------



## joespride

Yea no matter what we say finding a deal thats to good to pass up draws us right back in 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I also snapped up a pair of the zenith 6j5 for cheap that could not pass on
  
 My only way outta the merry go round will be if I kill my internet connection.  Wife says HELL NO


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Yea no matter what we say finding a deal thats to good to pass up draws us right back in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Good to have your voice back in these threads again, joespride!
  
 If you snagged a pair of Zenith's, I'm SURE, the pair were of similar or identical construction. Was that the Zenith pair (untested) that sold for $6???
 I'm looking forward to giving the Fivre 6C5G's a spin as soon as they arrive from Italy.............


----------



## joespride

nwavesailor said:


> Good to have your voice back in these threads again, joespride!
> 
> If you snagged a pair of Zenith's, I'm SURE, the pair were of similar or identical construction. Was that the Zenith pair (untested) that sold for $6???
> I'm looking forward to giving the Fivre 6C5G's a spin as soon as they arrive from Italy.............


 
 6.00 I WISH !!!!!!!!,  They are matched though scheduled to be here Saturday.
  
 I finally got my tubes from across the pond and the seller screwed up. sent 3 tubes 2 of which were the correct tubes and 1 was not so now my 2nd pair of Brimar is now 1 Brimar and 1 Osram.  Currently working on getting that straightened out.  On the plus side though I now have a 2nd Visseaux with the dimpled foil getter sound is equivilant to the Visseaux with the D getter I can not hear any advantage of one getter style over the other
  
 I would get the Fivre 6c5 but they cost to much for me, I will watch for a cheaper pair
  
 I am going to let the Shuguang burn in for a while now that the Visseaux test is complete,  I am hoping I can hear enough to settle with them. So far I am pretty happy with the SQ I am hoping they will give a bit more umph on bottom
  
 I need to start a tube trade thread, maybe find someone itching to try visseaux or brimar and trade for a Kenrad vt231, or and a sylvania Bad Boy..............those are about the only 2 tubes I am itching to hear at this point


----------



## connieflyer

Nad Visio HP-50 headphone
 1 Tungsol 6sn7GT
 1 RCA 6sn7GT Grey Glass
 1 RCA Silver Label 6sn7GT
 2 Philco 6sn7 GT
 1 Electro Harmonix 6sn7
 1 Raytheon 12SN7GT---     
 3 Hytron 12SJ7 GT----
 1 45Z5GT-------------

  
1 Aperex Bugle Boy 12AX7
 1 Amperex Bugle Boy 12AT7
 1 Telefunken 12AT7                     
 1 CV4024 Mullard Mil 12AT7
 2 Amperex Bugle Boy 12AT7    
 1 1966 Mullard 6681 12AX7 GE Marked
  
 Wish I would have known , just sold a pair of low mileage KenRad vt231 black glass.  I have one pair left, I am going to try with my Elise amp when it gets here.  If I don't care for it I will let you know.  Selling off a bunch of 9 pin and octals and other stuff.


----------



## joespride

connieflyer said:


> Nad Visio HP-50 headphone
> 1 Tungsol 6sn7GT
> 1 RCA 6sn7GT Grey Glass
> 1 RCA Silver Label 6sn7GT
> ...


 
 Pm me some frequent buyer Prices like the one I missed on the hd650   My brother needs a pair of decent cans


----------



## husafreak

Those NAD VISO HP50's are excellent headphones. I do not consider them the last word in resolution. But they sound great, isolate well, and I would rather listen to mine than my HD600's! They are portable sized. Just trying to be helpful.
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/i-love-these-headphonesthe-nad-viso-hp50#ER8LcoOSZ0FDlcMu.97


----------



## connieflyer

I thought they were good sounding headphones also, but just don't use them like I thought I would.  I am using the senns700's now and quite like them.  But they would not be good for portable in my opinion of course.  Thanks for your thoughts.


----------



## husafreak

And you are sure you wouldn't rather sell the HD-700'S and keep the NAD's? Just checking!


----------



## connieflyer

This is the last headphone I will be getting,(unless of course an 800S falls from the sky) for awhile.  I do like the Nad, but the 700's are very resolving, not as comfortable  as the 650, which in my opinion are one of the most comfortable phones out there.  After having two pair of them, decided to trade one for these Nad and while I like them for portable, the 700's are just great.  Like them better than the 650's and I did not think I would ever say that. Have to clear out some inventory to make room (and money) for the Elise.


----------



## joespride

I am amassing quite a collection of single 6j5 tubes that are in need of mates ( I have run into some less than stellar sellers of late) so I was wondering how you guys feel about this
  
 If you had a pair of tubes with matched construction and from the same manufacturer yet the date code was not a match How would you feel about it ??  I always strive to have matched date code, construction and manufacturer but it is kind of hard to find perfect matches.  I seem to be able to match manufacturer and construction fairly easy but date codes are proving quite difficult with these tubes dating back to the 40's
  
 I currently have odd,  Visseaux, Osram, Zenith, & Brimar
  
 What say the crowd ?????? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  As Meatloaf said "2 outta 3 aint bad" right...... Right...... RIGHT 
  
  
 Oh I should add i see several sellers willing to call matched with the 2 outta 3 being matched.......................


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> I am amassing quite a collection of single 6j5 tubes that are in need of mates ( I have run into some less than stellar sellers of late) so I was wondering how you guys feel about this
> 
> If you had a pair of tubes with matched construction and from the same manufacturer yet the date code was not a match How would you feel about it ??  I always strive to have matched date code, construction and manufacturer but it is kind of hard to find perfect matches.  I seem to be able to match manufacturer and construction fairly easy but date codes are proving quite difficult with these tubes dating back to the 40's
> 
> ...


 

_My 2 cents:_
  
_Construction, then manufacturer or codes to confirm manufacturer, (not necessarily the branded name) then date code._
  
_Construction details can also confirm the manufacturer in some cases. If dates are identical, great!............ if close OK............... if it's a number of years between the 2 tubes in question, materials used may vary and I'm not too excited to own them as a 'pair'. They could indeed sound identical, but my AR nature and brain would be wondering if the L & R channel are indeed the same!_


----------



## connieflyer

I agree about the date codes.  Things that are manufactured on the same line, same time, often are slightly different.  Look at cars, two cars coming down the assembly line, one guy misses a part on one car but not the next, if it is not a critical part, probably won't be found till later.  Nothing much is produced exactly, one for one, but close enough is what passes these days for "matched" pairs.  So many times the manufacture is the same but one will be rebranded but they test the same, and from the same manufacturer, same date code, are they the same?  I think this is where the obsessiveness comes in. I had your Vissenaux before you and even the one that had a different getter, they all sounded the same.  In the end that is what matters.  Numbers are great for quantifying things, but no one hears exactly as another, and a safe bet that your ears are not equal, either.  If I was using a multi thousand dollar amp, I might be more concerned
 about matching exactly, but with these low cost amps, the tubes aren't even pushed to their limits, and even if you were to find an exact match, chances are they would burn in, where in, what have you, at a different rate,  In all my "many" years with tubes, I never had to identical tubes burn out at the same time.  So at least in my opinion, exact match is not that critical, especially in amps like ember, or other amps of this caliber.


----------



## joespride

Interesting take on things Don.  I never even considered the burn out thing I have also lost a tube here and there and as you say it has always been a random act not in pairs
  
 I have been concentrating my efforts on the 6sn7 as of late and frankly am feeling like all my tube obsession above the solo 6sn7 is just that OBSESSION Listening to a Sylvania Jan VT-231 2 hole plates with the bottom dimpled foil getter on the starlight is almost sublime.  Also really enjoying the Shuguang cv181 treasures, Kenrad Clear glass offset ladder plates with the dimpled foil getter on bottom. Last new toy Is the Ken Rad VT231 black glass
  
 The Ember has been basically setting for a few days now. I am wondering how it would sound as a tube preamp


----------



## connieflyer

I use it that way occasionally and it does a nice job. I still use the Sylvania vt 231 and black glass Ken Rad vt 231 and really like them. They will both be used when my new amp the Elise gets here with lots of tube rolling and adapters.


----------



## connieflyer

Did you find a black glass Ken Rad?


----------



## joespride

connieflyer said:


> Did you find a black glass Ken Rad?


 
 Yes sir I have 1..................did a trade with a fellow member


----------



## joespride

deleted


----------



## connieflyer

I saw a member here had a black glass for sale, glad you have one.  Good luck with the sale, so far I have not had much luck here.  Tried Ebay, put my two SR-71 books up for sale for $500 and sold first day.  So I may just put the rest of my tubes and headphone up there and see what happens.  I gave a listen again to the Nad Visio again, used it all last night and was impressed, I had not listened with it that long before.  Pretty good, see why it has such good write ups.  Have seen an Ember or two on Ebay and I know Jeremy sells there so you may get more of a response, but it doesn't hurt to try here.  What did you use the Mazda 76's with?


----------



## joespride

I am in no hurry to sell, it is not a must sell it just wont see much / any use so I thought I might as well post it.  
  
 I will be putting my remaining tubes up on ebay.  Most that contacted me through here thought they were to high even when priced quite a bit below current going rates. If the tubes sell then I will likely just sell everything individually on ebay.  I like to say I offered the best deals up on the forums I frequent,  Kind of a way to pay it forward
  
 Did you see the used Elise in the classifieds ??  I have no idea what they cost new but the websites I saw stated 650.00, and the seller wants 750.00


----------



## connieflyer

Did not see that one. The price just increased to 699.00.  It might be worthwhile as it takes a couple of months to get them built.  Just looked it up, the picture is not with stock tubes. But the amp from all accounts here is a winner.  I might just buy it and cancel the one on order.


----------



## joespride

connieflyer said:


> Did not see that one. The price just increased to 699.00.  It might be worthwhile as it takes a couple of months to get them built.  Just looked it up, the picture is not with stock tubes. But the amp from all accounts here is a winner.  I might just buy it and cancel the one on order.


 
 Good luck either way.  Seller states pictured tubes are not included but available...............


----------



## connieflyer

I saw that,  but I think I have them and adapters already on the way.  Thanks


----------



## DavidA

joespride said:


> I am in no hurry to sell, it is not a must sell it just wont see much / any use so I thought I might as well post it.
> 
> I will be putting my remaining tubes up on ebay.  Most that contacted me through here thought they were to high even when priced quite a bit below current going rates. If the tubes sell then I will likely just sell everything individually on ebay.  I like to say I offered the best deals up on the forums I frequent,  Kind of a way to pay it forward
> 
> Did you see the used Elise in the classifieds ??  I have no idea what they cost new but the websites I saw stated 650.00, and the seller wants 750.00


 

 They were offering a special when they were first released for $500 so the $750 is way overboard.


----------



## amigastar

5 months in and the Ember is still rocking my world.
 Honestly this was the best thing to get for enjoying my music beside the HE-500. Love it.


----------



## connieflyer

They now cost $699.00 so not out of line when you figure $65 for shipping and then having to wait for 2-3 months.


----------



## joespride

I am giving notice here first.  I am going to offer TODAY ONLY all my remaining 6j5 at a stupid price I saw a piece I have been wanting and if I sell these I can swing it
  
 Offer Today Only Ends at midnight.
  
 Offer pulled Off to Ebay Guys
  
 Thanks anyway


----------



## Luckbad

I just bought another amplifier... I still have my Project Horizon and Sunrise, but I'd like to keep them both instead of selling one off.
  
 As such, I'm going to let go of all of my non-6N6P tubes.
  
 I have a grip of them, all measuring well. Probably about 10 in total, and I can get a list tonight.
  
 If anyone is interested in a sweet deal on a bunch of tubes to try rolling, PM me and I'll get back to you with a list tonight.
  
 Since I need the cash, I'll pretty much accept any decent offer.


----------



## DavidA

luckbad said:


> I just bought another amplifier... I still have my Project Horizon and Sunrise, but I'd like to keep them both instead of selling one off.
> 
> As such, I'm going to let go of all of my non-6N6P tubes.
> 
> ...


 
 Interested in the tubes
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I was just looking at the tubes you had for the Atlantis and I'm kicking my self for not picking up the Pagoda that was for sale locally for only $400 a few weeks ago.


----------



## joespride

Passed on a pagoda for 400.00..................You sir have the will of the Gods.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I would sell my kidney to buy a pagoda for 400 if one popped up and I saw it.


----------



## Luckbad

Yeah... if I saw a Stockholm V2 or Pagoda for $400 I'd snap it up. Heck, if I saw an Atlantis for $400 I get a third.


----------



## joespride

I had a Havana stock except for the tubes which I sold thinking I was upgrading,  I was horribly upset with the SQ I got with the new supposed better DAC, I could not sell it fast enough.  I was very lucky and saw an upgraded Havana for sale and I was the first in line.  Suffice to say My 2nd Havana Is going NO WHERE  Paired with the Garage amps  The MHDT offers all the detail and resolution I want
  
 I would Happily try any of there higher end models


----------



## joespride

luckbad said:


> I just bought another amplifier... I still have my Project Horizon and Sunrise, but I'd like to keep them both instead of selling one off.
> 
> As such, I'm going to let go of all of my non-6N6P tubes.
> 
> ...


 
 Now you know you have to share,  Which new amp did you get ??  Sunrise is next on my Horizon (Ha! little play on words there)


----------



## Luckbad

joespride said:


> Now you know you have to share,  Which new amp did you get ??  Sunrise is next on my Horizon (Ha! little play on words there)


 
  
Amps & Sound Mogwai. It's the first amp within striking distance of affordable that I actually liked better than anything from Garage1217.
  
 It's $1700.
  
 And I only like it a _little _better than the Horizon. Like... barely.


----------



## joespride

I know Justin pretty well, I have had something like 4 of his amps for audition and owned 3,  He is a stand up guy.  You must post impressions after you get some time with the new toy


----------



## connieflyer

I have the Kenzie on my short list and wondered if it was one you tried......http://ampsandsound.com/products/amps/kenzie-special-edition/


----------



## Luckbad

So we don't derail this thread, let's talk about those amps over here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/802346/amps-sound-aka-ampsandsound


----------



## DavidA

joespride said:


> Passed on a pagoda for 400.00..................You sir have the will of the Gods.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The will came from a God named Lily, my GF


----------



## joespride

connieflyer said:


> I have the Kenzie on my short list and wondered if it was one you tried......http://ampsandsound.com/products/amps/kenzie-special-edition/


 
 Had the Kenzie for over a year very nice indeed I did a review it is on Justins site (maybe here, cant recall) Sold for financial reasons only


----------



## Luckbad

By the way, these are the tubes I have that I'd be willing to part with to help finance my crazy amp purchase! I'll try to get them listed officially sometime soon:
  
 GE 6GU7 Firewire
 Raytheon JAN 5814WA
 Sylvania 12AU7
 GE 12AT7
 GE 12AX7
 Sylvania 6DJ8
 GE 5814A Triple Mica
 Electro-Harmonix 12BH7 Gold Pin 
 RCA 12AU7 Cleartop
 6N6P/6H6Pi


----------



## nwavesailor

If anyone have an interest in a nicely matched pair of NOS / NIB Fivre 6C5G, send me a PM. I bought a quad as the other Fivre's available were singles and I wanted a nicely matched pair. Not looking to make any $, just 1/2 the cost of the quad. (bought before the recent price increase!)


----------



## joespride

nwavesailor said:


> If anyone have an interest in a nicely matched pair of NOS / NIB Fivre 6C5G, send me a PM. I bought a quad as the other Fivre's available were singles and I wanted a nicely matched pair. Not looking to make any $, just 1/2 the cost of the quad. (bought before the recent price increase!)


 
 No fair, Not sharing impressions B-4 offering up the spare pair


----------



## nwavesailor

nwavesailor said:


> If anyone have an interest in a nicely matched pair of NOS / NIB Fivre 6C5G, send me a PM. I bought a quad as the other Fivre's available were singles and I wanted a nicely matched pair. Not looking to make any $, just 1/2 the cost of the quad. (bought before the recent price increase!)


 
  
  


joespride said:


> No fair, Not sharing impressions B-4 offering up the spare pair


 

 With only about 1 hour of listening time, I would agree with at least 2 other forum members opinion of the Fivre 6C5G.......... these do show off the bass!!!
  
 Not thunderous, shake the filings out of your teeth bass, but a bit more than most other tubes I have tried. Fun, pleasant and musical are what come to mind listening to these tubes. Too early to say that they are better or close to the Visseaux 6J5G. They are, however,  way less microphonic than any of my Visseaux pairs. I need to keep them in for more than an hour w/o swapping in other tubes and really see what they sound like. Too much back and forth on my part gets confusing!


----------



## Luckbad

I decided to roll all of my preamp tubes and give each 30 minutes over the course of the last several days.
  
 Still prefer the 6N6P. Time to sell the rest!


----------



## joespride

luckbad said:


> I decided to roll all of my preamp tubes and give each 30 minutes over the course of the last several days.
> 
> Still prefer the 6N6P. Time to sell the rest!


 
 How about a list of the tubes you rolled ?  also are you using as a preamp only ?


----------



## Mechans1

luckbad said:


> I decided to roll all of my preamp tubes and give each 30 minutes over the course of the last several days.
> 
> Still prefer the 6N6P. Time to sell the rest!


 

 I think you should hold on to a couple of the better sounding tubes in your collection.  You may decide that you want to hear this or that tube and type again.  Replacing NOS  tubes can be difficult  and more expensive than the price you paid.
 Surely you have some back up tubes, should the one you currently prefer fail?


----------



## connieflyer

Not to mention you may get a different amp, and be able to use those tubes, without having to re-buy them


----------



## Luckbad

mechans1 said:


> I think you should hold on to a couple of the better sounding tubes in your collection.  You may decide that you want to hear this or that tube and type again.  Replacing NOS  tubes can be difficult  and more expensive than the price you paid.
> 
> Surely you have some back up tubes, should the one you currently prefer fail?


 
  
 I have a bunch of 6N6P tubes still (way more than I'll sell) just in case. Those are my favorite tubes. My second favorite tube is actually the new production Electro-Harmonix 12BH7 Gold Pin, which I can buy new if necessary. The GE 6GU7 Firewire and Raytheon 5814 are my other favorites and are much harder to get, so maybe I ought to hang onto those.
  
@joespride Here's the list. I have a couple of people who want the GE 12AT7 and 12AX7 already but they might want them for too cheap.
  

GE 6GU7 Firewire
Raytheon JAN 5814WA
Sylvania 12AU7
GE 12AT7
GE 12AX7
Sylvania 6DJ8
GE 5814A Triple Mica
RCA 12AU7 Cleartop
Electro-Harmonix 12BH7 Gold Pin
6N6P/6H6Pi
6N2P-EV


----------



## ericr

Have you tried the 6SN7 types using the adapter?


----------



## joespride

Yes Luck has tried the 6sn7 (I now have 1 of his adapters) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Luck,  I was mainly curious I already have more tubes than I could hope to use  Thanks though


----------



## Luckbad

ericr said:


> Have you tried the 6SN7 types using the adapter?




I really like 6SN7 tubes, but the good ones are pretty costly and I like the inexpensive 6N6P tubes just as much as anything I've tried.


----------



## joespride

Fivre 6C5g glowing brightly in the Starlight using the 6j5 / ECC88 adapter and they sound marvelous with no hint of noise.  Currently thinking these are my new favorites.  Highs may be rolled just enough for my tastes where the Visseaux are a bit brighter on top


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Fivre 6C5g glowing brightly in the Starlight using the 6j5 / ECC88 adapter and they sound marvelous with no hint of noise.  Currently thinking these are my new favorites.  Highs may be rolled just enough for my tastes where the Visseaux are a bit brighter on top


 
 Very cool!
  
 I agree, they are less microphonic than the Visseaux and a bit quieter. The V's do extend a bit more on the highs where the Fivre's go a bit deeper in the bass.Hard to beat the Five's for appearance. Even the Italian tax stamp is kind of retro cool!
 I  enjoy both and go back and forth between these 2 'top tier tubes'.


----------



## joespride

nwavesailor said:


> Very cool!
> 
> I agree, they are less microphonic than the Visseaux and a bit quieter.
> I  enjoy both and go back and forth between these 2 'top tier tubes'.


 
 I dont seem to have a problem with microphonics,  The Brimar picked up some noise but the Visseaux and Fivre, as well as all the 6sn7 varients I have tried have been basically quiet. I also have the adapter for trying the Mullard ecc31 which will be next up.  I will probably be selling off some tubes to pay for another pair of the Fivre (maybe I can strike up a trade)


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> I dont seem to have a problem with microphonics
> 
> _Nor do I. All tubes are microphonic to some degree. Most tubes I use are microphonic, some of them I would say are quite microphonic..........  but I still like how they sound and continue to use them! _
> _In some instances I have used Herbie's tube dampers with some sucess but lately I just live with them._
> ...


----------



## joespride

I hear ya, I wont suffer noisy tubes or ? either.  This damn Mullard ECC31  sounds very good.  I would say it is right up there in the elite pack (Fivre, Visseaux, Brimar, and now Mullard)
  
 Not seeing much reason to continue the rolling it would seem the ones mentioned above are all but impossible to top (all quite comparable IMHO). Certainly cant imagine improvements over them that would warrant a higher expenditure.


----------



## DecentLevi

Come on, you guys are killing us onlookers. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Any chance you wouldn't mind sharing photos of your ECC31 and Fivre 6C5 in your amp? And what about you @Mshenay did you try your ECC31 or did you sell it to him?


----------



## joespride

decentlevi said:


> Come on, you guys are killing us onlookers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I bought all Mshenay's amp and tubes.  I was able to test the ecc31 in my BK606 and so had no fear running it. received the adapter today and this is the first time hearing it. Impressive to say the least.  I cant get pictures tonight to much other crap in the way at the moment, also I have the top off because it is the only way to Bias so its just plain ugly at the moment
  
 Big single bottle standing up nice and tall, chest all poked out, making Allison Krauss sound Sooooooooo Sweettttttt,  and now we are on to Amber Rubarth Very Nice.  Even had Will Smiths MIB bass kicking things up nicely
  
 I will try and add pics tomorrow although in laws are scheduled to be here so ???


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> I hear ya, I wont suffer noisy tubes or ? either.  This damn Mullard ECC31  sounds very good.  I would say it is right up there in the elite pack (Fivre, Visseaux, Brimar, and now Mullard)
> 
> Not seeing much reason to continue the rolling it would seem the ones mentioned above are all but impossible to top (all quite comparable IMHO). Certainly cant imagine improvements over them that would warrant a higher expenditure.


 

 Yeah, I would say the selectioin you have is likely as good as it gets!
  
 Not to get ya on the prowl for more shiny objects.............BUT...............There are folks at the Woo forum who have tried ECC 31, 33 and 35 and while they liked them all the ECC35 MAY have come out on top for some of those forum members.................your 6SN7 to ECC31 adapter may (?) work for all 3 (ECC31, 33, 35) but  am not sure??????


----------



## joespride

nwavesailor said:


> Yeah, I would say the selectioin you have is likely as good as it gets!
> 
> Not to get ya on the prowl for more shiny objects.............BUT...............There are folks at the Woo forum who have tried ECC 31, 33 and 35 and while they liked them all the ECC35 MAY have come out on top for some of those forum members.................I think your adapter may (?) work for all 3 ECC31, 33, 35!!!!!!!!!!


 











............Arrgh,  More to look for........................


----------



## husafreak

Here's my Ember sporting a Sylvania Silvertone 6SN7GTB, my favorite so far. But the ECC31 sounds appealing, I'm a one tube kinda guy, 
  
 pics and adapter requirements please!
  
 But the real reason I wanted to post is I believe I have found the ultimate tool for swapping tubes. Behold the garlic peeler!


----------



## joespride

No top hat on because honestly it is just a PITA to adjust Bias on starlight,  Ember has no such issue,  For the solo mullard I need to use one of Jeremy 6sn7 adapters and then plug the eec31 to eec33 adapter into that finally the tube into eec31 adjust bias and Bliss ensues.
  
 The fivre 6c5g plugs into the 6j5 adapter the one in the pics above is 6j5 to ecc88 adapter straight into the amp
  
 The Shuguang (Not Pictured) Cv181z Black treasures look alot like the mullard when in place
  
 I am going to have to liquidate some tubes soon so if someone is looking for something in particular hit me up


----------



## husafreak

Sweet, thanks! Get a garlic peeler yet?


----------



## joespride

No Garlic peeler in my near future,  Would need to see it in action B-4 going that route,  How about a picture demo


----------



## husafreak

Aye carrumba! They give a good grip, just steal your wifes


----------



## DecentLevi

Awesome job Joespride! So is the ECC31 your favorite so far - or how does it compare to the best?


----------



## joespride

husafreak said:


> Aye carrumba! They give a good grip, just steal your wifes


 
 I dont use the glass to remove a tube, I grab the base and wiggle it side to side and as it loosens i kind of move it in a circle while lifting.  Lots of vintage tubes have loose bases and I would hate to create a loose base or pull on the glass to find I just ruined a tube


----------



## joespride

decentlevi said:


> Awesome job Joespride! So is the ECC31 your favorite so far - or how does it compare to the best?


 
 Favorite I really cant say yet I know with my 50+ year old ears they are all quite comparable, the 1 thing that sticks out for me on a tube is a brighter top end which is an immediate deal killer as I have an inner ear issue on my left ear and to much treble makes it unlistenable (get a type static / buzzing in the ear)
  
 My impressions to date are Visseaux is more resolving while being the clearest on top, which may not be best *FOR ME*
 the other 3 types are really *IMHO *just as good everywhere else and perhaps a bit better with BASS.  I think though I have noticed possible recessed mids / vocals that will taks some more listening though to ferrit out


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> My impressions to date are Visseaux is more resolving while being the clearest on top, which may not be best *FOR ME*
> the other 3 types are really *IMHO *just as good everywhere else and perhaps a bit better with BASS.  I think though I have noticed possible recessed mids / vocals that will taks some more listening though to ferrit out
> 
> joespride and my impressions are very similar. I also hate a bright, brittle, harsh top end with sibilance
> ...


----------



## joespride

Does anyone know someone with soldering skills ??  I need a cable re-terminated, I have the connectors just not the  ability My hands shake very bad most of the time


----------



## nwavesailor

joespride said:


> Does anyone know someone with soldering skills ??  I need a cable re-terminated, I have the connectors just not the  ability My hands shake very bad most of the time


 

 PM sent


----------



## connieflyer

Anyone looking for some hospital grade outlets, Parts Connexion has a great buy going on.....http://www.partsconnexion.com/ac_leviton.html?utm_source=getresponse&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=1express&utm_content=pcX%E2%80%99s+Clearance+Event%3A+87%25+Off+MARANTZ+SA-1+SACD+Player+%28Donor+Unit%29%3B+63%25+Off+CARDAS+Golden+Presence+Spkr+Cable+-+Last+Set%3B+MULLARD+6922+Tubes+-+%2424.95%3B+FURUTECH+FI-50+%26+FI-50M+%28R%29+Power+%26+IEC+Plugs


----------



## joespride

Great tubes offered for Garage amps
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/804003/rare-vintage-visseaux-brimar-fivre-mullard-6j5-etc


----------



## Mechans1

joespride said:


> Great tubes offered for Garage amps
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/804003/rare-vintage-visseaux-brimar-fivre-mullard-6j5-etc


 

 Nice Collection of tubes .  What precipitated this sale? If I didn't owe Uncle Same so much, I might have tried some.  Oh well, I should be more like you and your ilk and sell more (some anyway) of my hoard. Good luck


----------



## joespride

There is a Windham weaponry AR15 local for sale at a decent price I have wanted one for many years,  I am moving to IEM's also so I really have no idea how the starlight will fare using them


----------



## db003206

I've just ordered an Ember which will be my first piece of tube gear. Looking through this thread it seems that I've got a whole lot of reading to do!
  
 I have a quick question for you guys while my order is still pending with Jeremy -- is it worth getting this Supercharger module added to it now? Will there be an appreciable difference for me just starting my tube-rolling journey?


----------



## DavidA

db003206 said:


> I've just ordered an Ember which will be my first piece of tube gear. Looking through this thread it seems that I've got a whole lot of reading to do!
> 
> I have a quick question for you guys while my order is still pending with Jeremy -- is it worth getting this Supercharger module added to it now? Will there be an appreciable difference for me just starting my tube-rolling journey?


 
 The supercharger is part of the Ember II, it was an option on the original Ember.


----------



## db003206

davida said:


> The supercharger is part of the Ember II, it was an option on the original Ember.


 
 Good to know, thanks. I don't see that listed on the product description on the garage1217 website.


----------



## DavidA

db003206 said:


> Good to know, thanks. I don't see that listed on the product description on the garage1217 website.


 
 Just went back to look at 1217 site, under the "parts" section it says for "Ember *1* supercharger module"  Its is confusing if you never had the original Ember, maybe they should add it to the Ember II description page


----------



## Mechans1

db003206 said:


> I've just ordered an Ember which will be my first piece of tube gear. Looking through this thread it seems that I've got a whole lot of reading to do!
> 
> I have a quick question for you guys while my order is still pending with Jeremy -- is it worth getting this Supercharger module added to it now? Will there be an appreciable difference for me just starting my tube-rolling journey?


 

 I suggest trying a variety of other brand 12AU7s to start.  Then perhaps the other common audio preamp 12 volt tubes i.e. the 12AX7 and the12AT seven. Don't buy  the costly  premium NOS tubes until you know how these  alter the sound.  If you want to try the easily sourced   NOS 6SN7 get the adapter from 1217.   That's enough to start, understand that these tubes are typical audio tubes.  Happy Hunting--
  
 PS Jeremy had a stock of NOS tubes at  very reasonable prices, don't know what he has now though!


----------



## TraceStar

mechans1 said:


> db003206 said:
> 
> 
> > I've just ordered an Ember which will be my first piece of tube gear. Looking through this thread it seems that I've got a whole lot of reading to do!
> ...




You can search for GARAGE 1217 page on Facebook. Jeremy has some tubes with pictures listed out. You don't even need to register if you don't use Facebook. Just browse his page to see the updates. 



Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## husafreak

I did a small amount of tube rolling and the above suggestions are very good! I also bought tubes from Jeremy at Garage 1217 twice and basically I just asked him to pick what he liked from his stock. I got a Russian 6n6p and a 6SN7 plus adapter that way. If I had to pick my top 3 tubes in my collection (about 10) two came from J. He will pick a winner for you if you let him  As far as price I never spent a lot on a tube, yet.
 Obviously it is highly personal which tube you are going to like, there can be no guarantees, but if you are starting from scratch and looking for advice, why not ask a guy who designs tube amps...


----------



## joespride

Heads up
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/804434/garage-1217-starlight-with-adapters-and-tubes-very-nice-tubes-sounds-superb
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/804530/collection-of-21-6sn7-tubes-sell-as-a-lot-wont-beat-this-deal
  
 anyone off this thread wants the collection of 6sn7 tubes I will toss a 6sn7 adapter you way with them


----------



## mikesale

joespride said:


> Heads up
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/804434/garage-1217-starlight-with-adapters-and-tubes-very-nice-tubes-sounds-superb
> 
> ...


 

 Shucks wish I would have waited on another purchase to get the tube lot! Thanks again for the Ember!


----------



## joespride

mikesale said:


> Shucks wish I would have waited on another purchase to get the tube lot! Thanks again for the Ember!


 
 I am sure we can work something out if you seriously want them.


----------



## joespride

Anyone in the market for adapters shoot me a PM, I have 1 x 6j5g to ecc81 25.00 shipped, I also have 3 x Jeremys 6sn7 adapters 20.00 each shipped


----------



## joespride

Not sure if I am just in the right mood or what but this damn American Made Amperex 12at7 (ECC81) is sounding damn fine. Very Musical little tube. It is also quite clear the 12 volt tubes put out more Volume.  I had to drop my source volume almost 1/2 to keep the volume pot at around 12 oclock
  
 Now I am inclined to give the rest of my little 9 pins a go round
  
  
 Small poll,  who prefers Musical over technically correct / neutral ??
  
 Personally I have been subjecting my wife and kids to my golden vocals, foot tapping and head bobbing for a couple hours (musical is where I will reside from now on, its to much fun to have my wife tell me to shut up, I sound sick 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## connieflyer

Personally I liked those Amperex 12at7's, they put on a good show.  See you sold your Ember, I will be putting mine up for sale as soon as my new Elise gets here. Bought a pair of Beyerdynamic T1's, and I am thinking I like them better than my 650's or 700's so more sale's to go.  Keep getting on the wife's nerve's, just watch out for frying pans in the night!


----------



## joespride

I have another toy on the way myself.  I bought what is likely the last SE84 from Justin at ampsandsound.  single end pentode 3 wpc supports speakers and headphones
  

 Shes as beauty.  Selling off some stuff to help offset the expense.  Shes a good wife all she said was yep when I approached the subject of getting it.  I already have the prototype of the book shelf speakers in the pic as well


----------



## connieflyer

That one was on my list as well, nice score Joe, and a good wife is worth more than any amp, not the music maybe, but the electronics for sure!


----------



## joespride

connieflyer said:


> Personally I liked those Amperex 12at7's, they put on a good show.  See you sold your Ember, I will be putting mine up for sale as soon as my new Elise gets here. Bought a pair of Beyerdynamic T1's, and I am thinking I like them better than my 650's or 700's so more sale's to go.  Keep getting on the wife's nerve's, just watch out for frying pans in the night!


 
 If you offer up another hd650 at close to the price of your last pair PM me.........................I have been curious about the hd700 and how it would compare to the HD800. I had the HD800 for a spell and I loved them finances forced sell though


----------



## connieflyer

650's already gone, have the 700's but price for those would be higher.


----------



## Lohb

Is the power output quoted for Garage 1217 stuff per channel or total mWatts ?


----------



## joespride

Per channel, Quoted power out is max to EACH chaannel


----------



## Mechans1

I have been using the "Ember" with HD 700s and KXXs and it seems to have plenty of power for those conventional HPs.  How many Watts or MiliWatts  per channel does it put out.  I have an amp a lot like the Elise which I also use.  Power has not been an issue for me so far.  I suppose certain electrostatic type  HPs would require much more power.
 I noted that a recent post favored Amperex 12AT7s.  I have always liked Amperex 12AU7s and have all I think I will ever need.  The 7316s are legendary , unfortunately the price has gone way up.  That is  for the  real 7316s, in addition there are a large number of fakes being offered.


----------



## joespride

Cross the graph with you cans ohms, VS the resistance setting you have selected (blue, red, or purple) to get max output on ember
  
 Graph courtesy of garage 1217


----------



## Lohb

Is the Project Starlight just a less powerful version of the PE2 ? I had just been looking at Starlight as it could accept the Burson opamps which get a lot of rave reviews over in the Gustard H10 thread.

  
 I like the idea of further dialability of tubes AND opamps but wonder if the PE2 has all-round better components from the get-go ?


----------



## joespride

lohb said:


> Is the Project Starlight just a less powerful version of the PE2 ? I had just been looking at Starlight as it could accept the Burson opamps which get a lot of rave reviews over in the Gustard H10 thread.
> 
> 
> I like the idea of further dialability of tubes AND opamps but wonder if the PE2 has all-round better components from the get-go ?


 
 IMHO the starlight is easily as good as Ember with both headphones I used with it (He500, and HD650) and I frankly enjoyed the sound quality more with starlight. it sounded more organic while ember sounds harder.  In there price ranges IMHO there is nothing better on the market for either one


----------



## Luckbad

lohb said:


> Is the Project Starlight just a less powerful version of the PE2 ? I had just been looking at Starlight as it could accept the Burson opamps which get a lot of rave reviews over in the Gustard H10 thread.
> 
> 
> I like the idea of further dialability of tubes AND opamps but wonder if the PE2 has all-round better components from the get-go ?


 
  
 I haven't heard the Starlight yet, but I adore the Horizon III and Sunrise III. The Ember II is very good, but both of those have a much more tube-like quality to them, more musical and organic sounding.
  
 Email Jeremy with the sort of amp you're looking for and he can steer you right.


----------



## techboy

Since getting 6sn7 tubes,

 Sylvania 6sn7wgt works fine

 But. Tried 3 VT 231's. Two from Syl. One from RCA. 

 All 3 have a severe buzzing noise. 

 Increases with use. 

 Could it be a grounding issue? Or could it be the adapter?

 12AU7 work fine. As do 6dj8. As do Syl 6sn7wgt. 

 Please help. Not usable with VT 231 tubes so far.


----------



## HOWIE13

techboy said:


> Since getting 6sn7 tubes,
> 
> Sylvania 6sn7wgt works fine
> 
> ...


 
 As far as I know the VT231 designation just refers to a 6SN7 tube made during the WW2 years. I don't think it is necessarily structurally different from tubes from the same manufacturer made immediately before or after that period.
 Anyway, if the adapter is alright with your 6SN7wgt it's unlikely to be the adapter that's the culprit.
 I have two Sylvania VT231's and both are silent in Ember so I strongly suspect your buzzing problem is an individual tube issue and maybe related to grounding issues.
 It's worth giving the pins a good clean to see if that helps and sometimes giving the tube and adapter a wiggle in the socket can remove a buzz due to a poor contact but, unfortunately, some tubes do buzz, though in my experience it's not a feature of VT231's in general with Ember.


----------



## techboy

I have tried 3 different VT 231s so far. All have the same issues. 

Also,

Update

VT 231 = 1940's Mil variant of 6sn7

People are using it fine. 

Note:

using almun foil over the tube -> reduces noise

putting on top of DAD -> reduces the noise

bypassing input capacitors -> increases the noise

removing 25ft extender cable -> reduces the noise


----------



## techboy

And the tubes aren't the culprit, they don't make any noise in other amps.


----------



## HOWIE13

techboy said:


> I have tried 3 different VT 231s so far. All have the same issues.
> 
> Also,
> 
> ...


 
 An earthed Faraday cage can work very well but I have never read of anybody needing to use one with a conventional 6SN7 tube in Ember. It would be interesting to try it if all else fails.
 Who or what is DAD?


----------



## HOWIE13

techboy said:


> And the tubes aren't the culprit, they don't make any noise in other amps.


 
 Which other amps?


----------



## techboy

DAD was a typo. I meant my DAC. 

The other amp was a custom home made amp of a friend. No name. He designed it himself.


----------



## techboy

Where do I get a faraday cage? How do I build it? How do I ground it?


----------



## HOWIE13

techboy said:


> Where do I get a faraday cage? How do I build it? How do I ground it?


 
 That's interestiing


techboy said:


> DAD was a typo. I meant my DAC.
> 
> The other amp was a custom home made amp of a friend. No name. He designed it himself.


 
 That's very interesting. Any link to the info that putting the amp on top  of the DAC reduces noise/buzz?
 As far as your friend's amp is concerned I have the occasional tube, though not a 6SN7, that hums in Starlight and not in Ember, or visa versa, and I suppose then it's a question of idiosyncratic lack of 'synergy' of electrical circuits (for want of a better explanation) if you can't find a fault anywhere.


----------



## HOWIE13

techboy said:


> Where do I get a faraday cage? How do I build it? How do I ground it?


 
 You need to read from d3rrick's post #1961, p131 to around #2080, p140, of this thread, and then you will know as much as I do.


----------



## techboy

I have read all that. But how do I ground the mesh?


----------



## HOWIE13

techboy said:


> I have read all that. But how do I ground the mesh?


 
 You connect the mesh to an earth point. I have one on my DAC, some people have used the copper piping of a nearby radiator, I believe.


----------



## Demo3

I took my grounding wire that is connected to the cage and tried several places until I found the quietest ground, earth ground is reliable.  Right now I am using a three pound coffee can that covers the Franken Ember setup.  The can comes into contact with all four thumb screws on top of the Ember plate, silence.  So in this setup there is NO grounding wire... just were the can touches the four screws.
  
http://amasci.com/amateur/whygnd.html


----------



## techboy

What is an earth point?


----------



## joespride

techboy said:


> I have read all that. But how do I ground the mesh?


 
 Easiest way I found to ground the cage was take a piece of solid core copper and tie it to the cage bend it in such a way as it touches the top of the capacitor while the cage is in place (mine was dead quiet) it gets rid of the need to stretch a wire anywhere


----------



## techboy

Which capacitor? How do I identify it?


----------



## techboy

The buzzing is there even when Ember isn't connected to the DAC.


----------



## joespride

techboy said:


> Which capacitor? How do I identify it?


 
 Looking at the amp from the front (Volume knob facing you) I used the capacitor in front of the tube right side.  had the copper wire touch the bare metal top of the capacitor and the cage and all noise gone
  
 Joe


----------



## smellster

techboy said:


> Since getting 6sn7 tubes,
> 
> Sylvania 6sn7wgt works fine
> 
> ...


 
  
 I am a recent convert to the Ember and had exactly the same problem this evening while testing for the 1st time a recently purchased 1943 Ken Rad and 1951 Sylvania, both 6SN7.
  
 I thought I'd been sold duff tubes as both were buzzing loudly, but a Tesla E88cc and Amperex ECC88 (6dj8) were fine.
  
 Anyway long story short turns out it was the energy saving bulb in an ikea desk lamp 4 feet away about to give up. I changed the light bulb and all was good with the world.
  
 I guess some tubes are more susceptible to interference than others, any electrical equipment crapping out near you?
  
 Incidentally I have a couple of 6dj8 Bugle Boys, one of which is very noisy in my Valhalla 2 but if I put it in the Ember it's silent.


----------



## jaywillin

my various attempts at blocking that nasty interference 
  

  

  

  
 all worked, on the on the square cage, the grounding wire has an alligator clip in one end, and a spade connector on the other.
 the spade connector is attached at the thumbscrew, the alligator clip connected to the cage
 works like a charm .
 i now have a round one that looks a little nicer.


----------



## DecentLevi

That's great that you guys were able to solve the buzzing with these methods on the Ember.
  
 I've now owned the Elise for the last few weeks. Most of the tubes are quiet but for the ones that weren't, I had tried the foil with grounding wire but to no effect at all. The Elise creams the Ember in every way, kicking the living daylight out of it until the former is completely irrelevant, so I thought I would avoid posting a comparison here to avoid ruffling any feathers. 
(I'll just suffice it to say the Elise with good tubes sounds twice as good as Liquid Carbon in _balanced _mode; which is already 1-2x better than LC in SE mode; which is already a slight edge above the Ember with dual Visseaux)
  
 Needless to say I'm selling my Ember. If anyone would like an Ember in good working condition please contact me. Also I'll be getting rid of 3 pairs of 7193 tubes as well as a few 6J5's and 6SN7's - not all though because many of these sound glorious on the Elise.


----------



## husafreak

Ah, you're killing me! LOL "this one is twice as good as that one which is twice as good as the other..." Please, no offense intended  But I did laugh a bit! Let's not forget that the Elise costs min 700 vs 300 for an Ember, and runs 4 tubes vs the 1. I see the Ember as a hobbyist product, the ultimate tube roller. But if you want the best sound possible and have the money, well, the sky is the limit. I wonder how many x better the Liquid Tungsten/ HE1000 combo I listened to at CanJam is? Again, no offense, but you knew this post was coming  We will certainly miss your insights into the Ember here though, you really helped us push our Embers to the limit.


----------



## techboy

I changed the room and the problem went away. Now I have to see what in original room is causing this.


----------



## DecentLevi

Yeah I sort of expected something like that. Well the Elise competes favorably with amps all the way up to the $2400 range, seems to be an end-game for all who have gotten it, and most are ranking it as their #1 prized possession. I may bring mine when I return for another Can Jam sometime and compare it to the Tungsten too.
  
 Thanks, I'll stick around this thread a few more weeks in case anyone needs info. on the Ember.


----------



## techboy

Got my electrician to fix the earthing. No noise now 
 He didn't charge anything. I gave him a 5 quids tip to make him happy


----------



## husafreak

Say, did you get the standard set or the Melz upgrade? I never heard of Melz tubes. Are they Current production?


----------



## connieflyer

I ordered an Elise as well, and I was told by a few forum members to forgo the tubes, as while they are okay, even the Melz are not that interesting.  I have plenty of tubes to use, so no point in ordering tubes I would not use.  Just got my new Sennheiser 800 headphone, using with the Ember and am very impressed with how good they sound with this amp. Be putting my Senn 700's up for sale soon, and when Elise gets here the Ember also.  Using the dual 6J5's now and this is sounding very good indeed.  Remarkable amp this Ember.


----------



## joespride

Dan congrats on the hd800.  I will have another pair soon.  The HE560 are sounding damn fine as well
  
 How would you compare the 700 to the 800 using the ember for both ??


----------



## connieflyer

The 800's are more open, larger soundstage, bass is tight, 700's seem to have more emphasis on bass but sounds good.  Need more time under the 800's to be more specific.  These are not the new 800s model, these are the original 800's, the silver ones.  From the comparison's I read I did not want treble to be rolled off, bass in reviews were increased on new version but not as accurate or as tight.  These have plenty of bass, if it is in the music you have it.


----------



## DecentLevi

I'm have a listing for my Ember 2.0 amp in perfect working condition, if anybody would like to get one used:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/806207/project-ember-2-0-tube-amp-from-garage-1217-optional-6sn7-7193-2c22-tubes
  
 It comes with the original power cable & JJ ECC82 tube, and optionally: 4 6SN7 tubes with adapter, and six 7193 (2C22) tubes with adapter


----------



## manizkrishnan

Hello,
  
 I recently bought ember 2.0 and I am using with T50RP MK3. I am loving it  Does anyone know *6N2P-EV **double triode tubes*
  
 work with ember 2.0 (with super charger) ? I have Jane-Philips AT7 but I would like to try some russian tubes.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/221783527376?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## Luckbad

manizkrishnan said:


> Hello,
> 
> I recently bought ember 2.0 and I am using with T50RP MK3. I am loving it  Does anyone know *6N2P-EV **double triode tubes*
> 
> ...


 
  
 They _can_. I didn't feel like they worked perfectly, though. I actually have quite a few of them because I also roll them into my DAC sometimes. If you want a couple, ping me and I can charge you even less than that guy since I don't need so many.


----------



## connieflyer

Well my new amp is shipping tomorrow so I put my Ember up for sale. http://www.head-fi.org/t/806533/garage1217-ember-amp  .  It includes two of Jeremy's adapters for 6sn7 to 12au7 and an adapter for dual 6j5's to 12au7's.  Also dual 6J5GT Sylvania and dual 6L5G Sylvania tubes.. It has the aluminum chassis and the acrylic chassis plates are included.  30% off retail prices and free insured shipping and paypal fees paid.  Great amp, just upgrading to new toys.  All the best guys!


----------



## husafreak

I knew it, the Ember is a gateway drug! Cheers


----------



## connieflyer

Actually it is! Even on the Sennheiser 800 it sounds great.


----------



## connieflyer

Just lowered price on Ember to $300 with tubes and accessories, lower than this may as well use as spare


----------



## Demo3

Anyone listened to the Ember v2.1 to see if it addressed any of the hum issues we get with some setups.


----------



## Alchemist007

Was the humming a constant sound or something that happens with certain music/frequencies?


----------



## merzbeak

Hello everyone - i just received my ember last week and enjoy the sound immensely. I am going to be perusing the numerous pages in this thread, looks like there is a lot of great information. 

I do have a request though, any recommendations on a tube(s) that have particular synergy with the lcd-3 (non-fazor if it matters)? If your response is lurk the thread more, i understand, just trying to take a quick shortcut. 

Thanks!


----------



## Demo3

alchemist007 said:


> Was the humming a constant sound or something that happens with certain music/frequencies?


 
 It is the hum that occurs with certain tube setups, in my case the "Franken Ember" setup.   It is cured by grounding a part of the Ember to earth ground.  Many pages in this thread discus this issue.  Also many pictures offer creative solutions.
 I just wanted to know if v2.1 Ember made any difference.


----------



## husafreak

merzbeak said:


> Hello everyone - i just received my ember last week and enjoy the sound immensely. I am going to be perusing the numerous pages in this thread, looks like there is a lot of great information.
> 
> I do have a request though, any recommendations on a tube(s) that have particular synergy with the lcd-3 (non-fazor if it matters)? If your response is lurk the thread more, i understand, just trying to take a quick shortcut.
> 
> ...


 
 I am not familiar with your headphones but after comparing about 10 tubes I found 3 that had distinct personalities and I pretty much just listen to those anymore. I am not home at the moment but I listed them in an earlier post. So my advice is to try to get dissimilar sounding tubes initially. Rather than end up with a bunch of similar sounding tubes right off the bat. Then fine tune it later. Maybe someone here can lump the various popular tubes into groups by sound signature? I was also given good advice here to read the thread backwards and so avoid buying tubes that were favored in the initial posts and then improved upon later.


----------



## DavidA

merzbeak said:


> Hello everyone - i just received my ember last week and enjoy the sound immensely. I am going to be perusing the numerous pages in this thread, looks like there is a lot of great information.
> 
> I do have a request though, any recommendations on a tube(s) that have particular synergy with the lcd-3 (non-fazor if it matters)? If your response is lurk the thread more, i understand, just trying to take a quick shortcut.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm going to assume you are only looking for 12XXX tubes: Telefunken 12AU7, re-issue Mullard, Amprex Bugle Boy are my 3 that I like with my LCD-2f so you might still need to fine tune from there.  I like my Lyr2 better for the LCD-2f, better bass, highs and sound field, currently using Seimens Lorenz gold pins.


----------



## merzbeak

husafreak said:


> I am not familiar with your headphones but after comparing about 10 tubes I found 3 that had distinct personalities and I pretty much just listen to those anymore. I am not home at the moment but I listed them in an earlier post. So my advice is to try to get dissimilar sounding tubes initially. Rather than end up with a bunch of similar sounding tubes right off the bat. Then fine tune it later. Maybe someone here can lump the various popular tubes into groups by sound signature? I was also given good advice here to read the thread backwards and so avoid buying tubes that were favored in the initial posts and then improved upon later.




Great ideas! I will take your advise and proceed backwards. Thanks


----------



## merzbeak

davida said:


> I'm going to assume you are only looking for 12XXX tubes: Telefunken 12AU7, re-issue Mullard, Amprex Bugle Boy are my 3 that I like with my LCD-2f so you might still need to fine tune from there.  I like my Lyr2 better for the LCD-2f, better bass, highs and sound field, currently using Seimens Lorenz gold pins.




Sounds good, i will check out the 12XXX tubes first, thanks for the suggestions!


----------



## connieflyer

demo3 said:


> It is the hum that occurs with certain tube setups, in my case the "Franken Ember" setup.   It is cured by grounding a part of the Ember to earth ground.  Many pages in this thread discus this issue.  Also many pictures offer creative solutions.
> I just wanted to know if v2.1 Ember made any difference.


 

 Some tubes, like the 7193 are more prone to humming, I had that frankenember setup, and had about 6 7193's only one had a hum in it.  The version of ember should not make a difference.  If the humming is constant with all tubes, it is the amp, if only certain setup's not the amps fault.  I have rolled many tubes, most 9 pins, lots of 6SN7's, and the dual 7193, and the dual 6j5,6c5 and the best setup for me was the Dual 6L6's.  Still have my ember and use it occassionly, presently up for sale. If you check out this add you can see what some of the adapters and tubes I use with the ember


----------



## Mechans1

Use your previous favorites and explore from there.  I always liked the 5751s and have found they sound good n this application as well.  There are various adapters available which allow you to use a large variety of tubes.  An example is the 6SN7 adapter .  The 6SN7 has a very wide variety of sounds depending on brand and vintage, many people no their favorite.
 I should have mentioned the 12AU7 which is theoretical stock.  A couple of the more obscure 12AU7s are the very quiet 7316 variant also is very carefully speced out.  The real deal 7316s are in my opinion, always a Philips tube such as Amperex always made in Heerlen Holland and were made from the late 50s to early 60s, frequently for computers and fine test equipment, thus computer branding is a good thing.  They are super quiet.
 I was just listening to a 10M Mullard 12AU7, sounds very good but is not overly ambitious.  I have Tele,  ECC82s but haven't listened to one recently, 
 Another 12AU7 variant I like but very different than the 7316 is the Brimar 13D5 developed for longevity.  These are not subtle, rather they are rugged and straight forward and have a very clean signal.
 BTW the 5751 is a sub for a 12AX7.  It has a gain of 0.70 of a 12AX7 and is more quiet than a 12AX7.


----------



## db003206

The Project Ember is my first piece of tube gear so I'm new to this whole tube rolling game. I had Jeremy include some tubes with my purchase so I could get a feel for what kind of a difference tubes could make and after a few hours of listening I am really blown away by how big that difference really is.
  
 The four I've got at the moment are an RCA Conn 12AU7A, a NOS Russian 6N6P that I can't find much information on, a late production Sylvania 6SN7GTB with adapter, and a Mullard CV 4024 Copper 12AT7. Of them the Mullard 12AT7 is by far and away my favorite -- better bass, better mids, better treble, bigger soundstage -- and the 6N6P is probably my least favorite since it seems lacking in the bass department.  The 6SN7 I have is somewhat underwhelming since all the reading I've been doing seems to praise these tubes. Mine seems very average. Can anyone recommend a 6SN7 that would show me what I'm missing?
  
 I'd also like to try out a 5751 since they seem to be pretty highly recommended. Is there a specific one that stands out?


----------



## Mechans1

db003206 said:


> The Project Ember is my first piece of tube gear so I'm new to this whole tube rolling game. I had Jeremy include some tubes with my purchase so I could get a feel for what kind of a difference tubes could make and after a few hours of listening I am really blown away by how big that difference really is.
> 
> The four I've got at the moment are an RCA Conn 12AU7A, a NOS Russian 6N6P that I can't find much information on, a late production Sylvania 6SN7GTB with adapter, and a Mullard CV 4024 Copper 12AT7. Of them the Mullard 12AT7 is by far and away my favorite -- better bass, better mids, better treble, bigger soundstage -- and the 6N6P is probably my least favorite since it seems lacking in the bass department.  The 6SN7 I have is somewhat underwhelming since all the reading I've been doing seems to praise these tubes. Mine seems very average. Can anyone recommend a 6SN7 that would show me what I'm missing?
> 
> I'd also like to try out a 5751 since they seem to be pretty highly recommended. Is there a specific one that stands out?


 

 I only wanted the last question you asked re 5751s. 
 If you just want to get the basic flavor there is current Russian production, I think it may be Sovtek but am not at all sure about the brand?
  The highest regarded tubes have 3 mica separating support structures and have black plates. These triple mica black plate tubes were frequently made in the 1950s and early 1960s  As for reputation by brand that is a matter of taste of course but Sylvania, RCA and GE in that order is the usual ranking. There are other lesser known 5751s for example Tung Sol and others.  One of my personal  favorites is the windmill getter Raytheon which is a 2 mica tube BTW. 
 Never hurts to read up on threads dealing wuth 5751s, a couple of years ago the market for thrm was on fire with prices reaching ridiculous levels (on Ebay).


----------



## joespride

db003206 said:


> The Project Ember is my first piece of tube gear so I'm new to this whole tube rolling game. I had Jeremy include some tubes with my purchase so I could get a feel for what kind of a difference tubes could make and after a few hours of listening I am really blown away by how big that difference really is.
> 
> The four I've got at the moment are an RCA Conn 12AU7A, a NOS Russian 6N6P that I can't find much information on, a late production Sylvania 6SN7GTB with adapter, and a Mullard CV 4024 Copper 12AT7. Of them the Mullard 12AT7 is by far and away my favorite -- better bass, better mids, better treble, bigger soundstage -- and the 6N6P is probably my least favorite since it seems lacking in the bass department.  The 6SN7 I have is somewhat underwhelming since all the reading I've been doing seems to praise these tubes. Mine seems very average. Can anyone recommend a 6SN7 that would show me what I'm missing?
> 
> I'd also like to try out a 5751 since they seem to be pretty highly recommended. Is there a specific one that stands out?


 
 Try the Ken Rad black glass vt231, the RCA gray glass vt231, I also felt the RCA bottlecap was pretty good


----------



## connieflyer

Hi Joe, do you mean the VT-231 perhaps?  Hope things are working out for you.


----------



## joespride

Yes don you are correct my mistake
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  
 Edited, Its like it never happened


----------



## connieflyer

Every once and awhile!


----------



## Mechans1

I can't remember if I have said this already.  I use a somewhat uncommon Mullard 6922./7308 type tube with very  good results.  The tube is the CV-2493, sometimes written as a E88CC-01, it is atypical for a Mullard in that it has a bright treble called sparling by some.  I like the tube for its apparent precision.  They not usually inexpensive but within reason costing from $50-100 per tube.  They have been widely copied and I have been told counterfeits are abundant.  Look for the typical Mullard corrugated paper roll,  pin protectors and a dimpled "splash guard" .
 Upscale audio used to carry some (no affiliation at all)


----------



## DavidA

mechans1 said:


> I can't remember if I have said this already.  I use a somewhat uncommon Mullard 6922./7308 type tube with very  good results.  The tube is the CV-2493, sometimes written as a E88CC-01, it is atypical for a Mullard in that it has a bright treble called sparling by some.  I like the tube for its apparent precision.  They not usually inexpensive but within reason costing from $50-100 per tube.  They have been widely copied and I have been told counterfeits are abundant.  Look for the typical Mullard corrugated paper roll,  pin protectors and a dimpled "splash guard" .
> Upscale audio used to carry some (no affiliation at all)


 
 Got a picture of your?  Sounds like an interesting Mullard if its bright like you say


----------



## db003206

Thanks for all the advice. I found some pretty good deals on a Sylvania 5751 black plate, an RCA 6SN7GT Smoked Glass and a Ken Rad 6SN7 Black Glass, so we'll see how they sound when they arrive.


----------



## RedBull

Hello brother David. Get your sr009 back yet?


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> Hello brother David. Get your sr009 back yet?


 
 Yes, but it was actually the SRM-007 that was the problem and need some repairs.  Hi Darwin, haven't seen you in the threads for a while, hope all is good with you and family.  I'm considering the Elise and 2 other amps, think I been over analyzing this but I trying to find 2 end game amps.


----------



## connieflyer

Well, you are welcome to ask us any questions on the Elise thread and we will try to help any way we can. I am really enjoying the amp with the 6 pack of El3n tubes.


----------



## ericr

db003206 said:


> The Project Ember is my first piece of tube gear so I'm new to this whole tube rolling game. I had Jeremy include some tubes with my purchase so I could get a feel for what kind of a difference tubes could make and after a few hours of listening I am really blown away by how big that difference really is.
> 
> The four I've got at the moment are an RCA Conn 12AU7A, a NOS Russian 6N6P that I can't find much information on, a late production Sylvania 6SN7GTB with adapter, and a Mullard CV 4024 Copper 12AT7. Of them the Mullard 12AT7 is by far and away my favorite -- better bass, better mids, better treble, bigger soundstage -- and the 6N6P is probably my least favorite since it seems lacking in the bass department.  The 6SN7 I have is somewhat underwhelming since all the reading I've been doing seems to praise these tubes. Mine seems very average. Can anyone recommend a 6SN7 that would show me what I'm missing?
> 
> I'd also like to try out a 5751 since they seem to be pretty highly recommended. Is there a specific one that stands out?




After trying 20 or so different tubes the Sylvania 6SN7W (black base) is my clear favorite.

-Eric


----------



## RedBull

davida said:


> Yes, but it was actually the SRM-007 that was the problem and need some repairs.  Hi Darwin, haven't seen you in the threads for a while, hope all is good with you and family.  I'm considering the Elise and 2 other amps, think I been over analyzing this but I trying to find 2 end game amps.




I am fine, thanks for asking. Just i don't have much time in the forum, have to assist my kids exam and all.
I have ordered Elise based on impression mainly from connieflier sine he has both Ember and Elise. But i would never let Ember go, she's one of my lover. 
What other amps are you considering right now?


----------



## connieflyer

If you would like another Ember, I have one for sale here...http://www.head-fi.org/t/806533/final-price-drop-garage1217-ember-amp..Elise for me, is full time now.so put the Ember and adapter and tubes up for sale.  Good luck with the Elise,


----------



## DavidA

redbull said:


> I am fine, thanks for asking. Just i don't have much time in the forum, have to assist my kids exam and all.
> I have ordered Elise based on impression mainly from connieflier sine he has both Ember and Elise. But i would never let Ember go, she's one of my lover.
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Other amps include the Elise, a used Liquid Glass, EC Zana Deux, and HA-501 (still wanted a decent SS amp)


----------



## RedBull

davida said:


> Other amps include the Elise, a used Liquid Glass, EC Zana Deux, and HA-501 (still wanted a decent SS amp)


 
  
 Elise looks like a fine amp. Love how it is named.  I like amp with girls name 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 LG look like this

  
  
 ZD look like ,

  
 you tempt me.  
  
  
 HA-501, not so much (I prefer tube sound), I already have Lehmann BCL.


----------



## Lohb

Project Starlight thread looking dead as a dodo, so any you guys have exp. with 12AU7 tube and its effect over the stock tube ?
 4 years almost into this hobby and this is my first tube amp. Looking forward to the 'tube effect'.
  
  
 I'm really not sure Starlight will power my Fostex T20-RPs on highest gain but I have other stuff it will power. 
 Sorry 'bout the cross-post, but this thread most active for tube rolling Project gear. 
  
 Been lurking on this post and wanted to opamp roll the Starlight with the new Burson opamps just out before looking at Ember 2 or anything else. 
  
 From what I have read, I think I'm going to be hooked on the tube sound.


----------



## nwavesailor

lohb said:


> Project Starlight thread looking dead as a dodo, so any you guys have exp. with 12AU7 tube and its effect over the stock tube ?
> 4 years almost into this hobby and this is my first tube amp. Looking forward to the 'tube effect'.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have not tried the Burson op amps in the Starlight, but I have tried quite a few others. The LM4562 (and identical LM49720) that likely shipped with your Starlight are actual some of my favorites. The only ones that were clearly superior were the OPA627. If buying from a known source (DigiKey, Mouser) they cost real money, perhaps $20-$30 per op amp, and you need 4 as they are singles op amps.  You will also need a single to dual op amp adapter. You can find lots on OPA627's listed on E-Bay from China for very little money but are almost certainly not the 'real' 627 op amps. I found a thread where a guy took apart the chip and also a 'real' 627 to see what was inside. It was a cheap $1 opamp, not a 627!
  
 I have been using an Amperex 12AU7 and a rare HIVAC 12AU7 with good success in the Starlight.


----------



## DavidA

lohb said:


> Project Starlight thread looking dead as a dodo, so any you guys have exp. with 12AU7 tube and its effect over the stock tube ?
> 4 years almost into this hobby and this is my first tube amp. Looking forward to the 'tube effect'.
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Favorite tubes for Ember: Telefunken, RCA clear top, Bugle Boys, Sylvania Jan and Mullards.


----------



## smellster

I have a colleague with a couple of EL3N tubes which he rates highly in his DIY projects.
  
 Does anyone know if these would these work in my Ember I guess by way of a dual EL3N to 6SN7 adapter? Or is the heater current draw going to be too high for the Ember?
  
 Loving the Ember by the way, I have the ZMF X VIBRO MK II arriving today so looking forward to trying them out with the Ember.


----------



## DecentLevi

@sneaky415 has snuck in a way to make this happen:
 (borrowed from the Elise thread, where this tube is king)

 Dual EL3N's would be required in order to get a stereo signal and the voltage draw exceeds the capacity of the Ember, so he's using a socket saver and an external power supply. I'm using my EL3N on the Elise with an EL3N to 6SN7 adapter on a 6AS7 to 6BL7 adapter, but I'm not sure which adapter he's using.


----------



## DecentLevi

On second glance, he's clearly using:
 6DJ8 to 6SN7 adapter
 6SN7 octal saver (with external wire to power supply)
 6SN7 to dual EL3N adapter
   All findable on eBay


----------



## smellster

decentlevi said:


> On second glance, he's clearly using:
> 6DJ8 to 6SN7 adapter
> 6SN7 octal saver (with external wire to power supply)
> 6SN7 to dual EL3N adapter
> All findable on eBay


 
 Thanks so much for the rapid reply.
 I didn't even realise such adapters with a wire to an external power supply existed. Sounds like an exotic thing to try so I found the required adapters on ebay with XulingMrs, I guess the external wire to a 6 volt 2 amp power supply will do the trick.
  
 Thanks again.


----------



## sneaky415

smellster said:


> Thanks so much for the rapid reply.
> I didn't even realise such adapters with a wire to an external power supply existed. Sounds like an exotic thing to try so I found the required adapters on ebay with XulingMrs, I guess the external wire to a 6 volt 2 amp power supply will do the trick.
> 
> Thanks again.


 
 Hi, DecentLevi is correct, those are the adapters Im using. I bought a variable power supply at that auction site. Link is here. You will also need a copper wire to ground the power supply to the ground on the rca inputs. I also bought some thicker power cables for it since the ones that came with the power supply got quite hot.
  
 Its now my favourite setup for the Ember, I am really curious how it compares to the Elise. If the Elise is clearly better then I would like to purchase one.


----------



## db003206

smellster said:


> I have a colleague with a couple of EL3N tubes which he rates highly in his DIY projects.
> 
> Does anyone know if these would these work in my Ember I guess by way of a dual EL3N to 6SN7 adapter? Or is the heater current draw going to be too high for the Ember?
> 
> Loving the Ember by the way, I have the ZMF X VIBRO MK II arriving today so looking forward to trying them out with the Ember.


 
 I'm running the same Ember -> ZMF x Vibro Mk II setup and loving it. The ZMFs could have more subbass but that's my only complaint and it's a small one.


----------



## DecentLevi

For anybody who is considering going the above EL3N route in the Ember, I HIGHLY suggest the below option instead. It costs only a little more, but gives much better sound and greatly improved tube rolling versatility.
  
 EL3N + 6BL7

_Photo of this in my Elise - except for the Ember you would also need the octal saver and 6SN7 adapter below it._
  
 For this you would need:
 6DJ8 or 12AT7 to 6SN7 adapter
6SN7 octal saver with external power supply (or battery P/S for reducing possible humm)
6AS7 to 6SN7 / 6BL7 dual dapter
EL3N to 6AS7 adapter (quantity 1-2 depending on you)
   + 1-2 EL3N and 1-2 6BL7 tubes
  
 This adapter gives vast tube rolling possibilities and the above combo specifically gives absolutely exquisite sound and by far the best home audio I have ever heard in my entire life (with the Elise anyway)! With this versatile adapter, you can now mix & match 1-2 of any of the following: 6SN7, 6BL7, 6BX7 and EL3N - all except for the later are very cheap tubes! May the first one to try this marvel at the best sound ever from the Ember to date!!!


----------



## dpump

I would check with Jeremy at Garage 1217 before using 6BL7 or 6BX7. Both of these tubes draw 1.5 amps and will cause the Ember to run very hot and could cause eventual breakdown. I asked Jeremy a while back about these tubes and he ended up using them in a Solstice (if I am remembering correctly) but he had to modify the amp to handle the heater current. I tried each of them in my Ember1 with Supercharger, but the Supercharger module was very hot after a short time, so I took them out.
  
 I also don't know why you would want to use a 6BL7/6BX7,which are dual triodes, and then another tube on an adaptor in the Ember when the Ember needs either a dual triode or 2 single triodes. The Ember is nothing like the Elise, so thinking you can duplicate a tube combination that works on the Elise on the Ember may not be advisable.


----------



## DecentLevi

I have extensive experience from owning both amps, and have successfully duplicated 5-10 instances of combinations from one to the other and visa-versa. The Ember uses a 6DJ8 which, with a 6SN7 adapter is exactly identical to the 6SN7 circuitry the Elise uses as driver tubes. The photo at the very top of the page with dual EL3N's was actually a concept somebody borrowed from the Elise thread which it uses in the power tube position; which according to his results, works also in the Ember. However that is a tube combo that was used in the power slots of the Elise, it works on the Ember by running on an external power supply to give the required 6v / 2ah voltage, which bypasses the heat current of the Ember. The dual EL3N combo shown on top has been successfully tested in both amps (if using the external P/S method for the Ember as shown), likewise the 2nd proposed combo with the 6AS7 adapter uses the same connecting adapters and circuitry below each respective dual adapter, hence it is basically guaranteed to also work in the Ember.
  
 Jeremy will likely not endorse either of the above combos because as a manufacturer he tends to stay on the safe side of caution, just like the Elise owner. But nonetheless, outstanding results have been achieved from the ingenuity of fellow Head-Fi'ers who dare to take a small risk and think outside the box. I personally don't own the Ember anymore, but just thought I'd post the above concepts so I can watch in admiration of just how far my fellow Ember tube rollers can take this thing. It's a very versatile adapter that can finally give you the chance to try the likes of two 6SN7's, etc. etc. and can really make it "soar to great new heights", LOL


----------



## DavidA

Stupid question here, can you use 6DJ8 tubes in the Elise with an adapter?


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi again David, you most certainly should be able to, as the front driver tubes, if such a 6SN7 to 6DJ8 adapter (big --> small) exists - but the general consensus is that the larger 6SN7 and especially 6J5 have better audio properties than the smaller ones


----------



## DavidA

decentlevi said:


> Hi again David, you most certainly should be able to, as the front driver tubes, if such a 6SN7 to 6DJ8 adapter (big --> small) exists - but the general consensus is that the larger 6SN7 and especially 6J5 have better audio properties than the smaller ones


 

 Hi DL, thanks for the info, only reason I asked is I have some really good 6DJ8/6922 tubes for my Lyr2 and I actually liked the 12XXX tubes in the Ember better than the 6SN7 (3) tubes that I tried.  I was thinking that if I got the Elise I would like to make use of the investment in tubes that I currently have, the 6DJ8/6922 (42 pairs) and the 2 sets of TS-5998, 1 pair of WE421A and 1 pair Bendix 6080


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> Hi DL, thanks for the info, only reason I asked is I have some really good 6DJ8/6922 tubes for my Lyr2 and I actually liked the 12XXX tubes in the Ember better than the 6SN7 (3) tubes that I tried.  I was thinking that if I got the Elise I would like to make use of the investment in tubes that I currently have, the 6DJ8/6922 (42 pairs) and the 2 sets of TS-5998, 1 pair of WE421A and 1 pair Bendix 6080


 
 This might be what you are looking for?:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-ECC88-6DJ8-6922-6N11-TO-6SN7-6N8P-VT231-B65-Tube-converter-adapter-/201042793753?hash=item2ecf159519:g:b8gAAOSwNsdXSsJ~


----------



## Lohb

Quick non-tube question to Ember 2 users, would you be able to run IEMs off your unit at low gain or is it too powerful to do that or would have a background noise etc ?


----------



## HOWIE13

Well, interestingly for me it is a question of the tube because, at least with my SoundMagic IEM's, the only way to reduce background hiss with my Ember2 is either to use a lower gain tube, or to increase the output impedance, the latter usually adversely affecting the sound quality.
  
 There is hiss with most tubes I use with my IEM's, even those tubes with an amplification factor of about 17-20.(ECC82, 6SN7, dual 6J5), though with this amplification the hiss is very quiet and not intrusive on the music and my IEM's sound fine. Above this amplification though, the hiss becomes progressively intrusive and I can only use some ECC88 tubes with my IEM's, not all.
  
 The hiss with ECC81 and ECC83 tubes universally precludes their use with my IEM's, but, of course, I wouldn't normally want to use such high gain tubes with low impedance, high sensitivity cans anyway.
  
 The gain module on Ember2 affects the input, not the output, and has no affect on this noise though invoking its use will of course allow  greater rotational use of the volume control and is usually necessary with my low impedance, high sensitive cans.
  
 Different IEM's would perhaps yield different results.


----------



## ericr

In addition to low and high gain, the Ember II has Input Attenuation via a small plug-in resistor pack, that further lowers the output level. 

I use my original Ember 1 with various IEM (including 1964 Ears - pretty efficient/higher sensitivity). Initially, even on low gain I would barely move the volume knob much past 8:00 and had some channel imbalance. Being the cool guy he is, Jeremy had me send it back and he did a mod to replace a couple of resistors with some higher value ones. Post mod I typically run with the volume knob in the 10:00 to 12:00 range.

Not too long after Jeremy released the Polaris and then the Ember II, both having the plug in resistor packs so users can do this mod themselves (no need to ship it back or for Jeremy to desolder/resolver components).

Let Jeremy know you're using IEMS so he can make sure you get a couple of resistor packs of different values to try out.

The Ember is excellent with multi balanced armature IEMS.


----------



## db003206

lohb said:


> Quick non-tube question to Ember 2 users, would you be able to run IEMs off your unit at low gain or is it too powerful to do that or would have a background noise etc ?


 
 I have used mine with my Dunu DN-2000J which are 8 ohm IEMs and had great results.


----------



## ericr

... and it doesn't hurt to avoid the higher MU (gain) tubes such as the 12AX7 and 12AT7 as some have had hiss.


----------



## Lohb

I'm getting small electric shocks through a Project amp I just picked up to my IEMs . Trying to find and isolate the reason. 
 I can feel the electric 'tinge' transmit to the ears.
 If anyone could PM me with any way to fix this issue, I realise this is the tube rollers' thread. Just no general Project amps thread on this site and Starlight thread is dead...


----------



## DecentLevi

lohb said:


> I'm getting small electric shocks through a Project amp I just picked up to my IEMs . Trying to find and isolate the reason.
> I can feel the electric 'tinge' transmit to the ears.
> If anyone could PM me with any way to fix this issue, I realise this is the tube rollers' thread. Just no general Project amps thread on this site and Starlight thread is dead...


 
 Try reducing the gain if the amp has one, which is usually better for IEMs anyway. Otherwise just insulate all exposed metal points on your IEM with the likes of foam / rubber according to practicality


----------



## Lohb

.


----------



## db003206

lohb said:


> Already put it on lowest gain. More worried about toasting my IEMs as one side went all weird and dropped out/went fuzzy.
> 
> Would not expect these grounding issues on Project gear, maybe random Chinese gear with bad schematic principles.
> Anyway, thanks.


 
 I haven't had the same issue with my IEMs. It might be worth emailing Jeremy at Garage 1217 directly about the issue, he's very responsive.


----------



## ericr

Agreed. I wouldn't use the amp until Jeremy has given it a clean bill of health.


----------



## husafreak

I don't think he's referring to an Ember but rather a "Project" amp.


----------



## ericr

If the amp was assembled by Garage 1217 it has a 5 year warranty.


----------



## HOWIE13

lohb said:


> Already put it on lowest gain. More worried about toasting my IEMs as one side went all weird and dropped out/went fuzzy.
> 
> Would not expect these grounding issues on Project gear, maybe random Chinese gear with bad schematic principles.
> Anyway, thanks.


 
 If you are now having a problem with the quality of the sound from one of the channels I would firsly just try another headphone to determine if the problem is with the amp or the IEM's.


----------



## Lohb

.


----------



## HOWIE13

lohb said:


> Hi problem is with the Starlight amp because I have the same IEMs on now with an HRT microstreamer DAC, no electic shock coming through the units, no driver overload.
> (Also there is no continuous metal parts on my headphones to transmit low level shock to my ears from cables drivers inside, so they are isolated with wood/plastic/leather)
> 
> They are 16 ohms and I started with the amp at volume pot zero and moves very slowly on low gain just in case they were too sensitive, could dial around 6-10 o'clock. Really thought I fried my IEMs with the shock voltage, but they must have been overloaded with static as when I removed the cables and left them they were OK off my portable DAC/amp later. PHEW !


 
 I had painful static problems when we got a new carpet and my wife made me take off my shoes and wear those blue polythene shoe covers they give you in airports, when you remove your shoes at security, to wear over my socks. Got dreadful shocks touching any metal component of my kit.
 Hope you can sort this out. Jeremy will advise, I'm sure. Hopefully something quite simple.
  
 PS. Might be worth checking the op-amps are properly housed, or even change them round. Might give some indication where the problem lies.


----------



## Deaf ear

question about matched pairs. I'm deaf on my left side, and I had Jeremy set up my ember 2 to play dual mono. I'm currently switching between a us navy 6c8 & a pair of phillips 6j5wgt.

 Is using Matched pairs for dual tube setups a matter of balance, electrical necessity , or both. I thought if it's just balance, it won't affect me and I could save some money on tubes by getting non matched pairs.

On a side note, I love the 6c8's since I can put the humming side on the deaf ear.


----------



## ericr

lohb said:


> Hi problem is with the Starlight amp because I have the same IEMs on now with an HRT microstreamer DAC, no electic shock coming through the units, no driver overload.
> (Also there is no continuous metal parts on my headphones to transmit low level shock to my ears from cables drivers inside, so they are isolated with wood/plastic/leather)
> 
> They are 16 ohms and I started with the amp at volume pot zero and moves very slowly on low gain just in case they were too sensitive, could dial around 6-10 o'clock. Really thought I fried my IEMs with the shock voltage, but they must have been overloaded with static as when I removed the cables and left them they were OK off my portable DAC/amp later. PHEW !




FWIW, I own the Microstreamer as well (great product, esp. for it's cost & size!), and also two Embers and have never had this problem. My vote would be to contact Jeremy and get it sent in for repairs. I've heard he is really fair, even if the unit is out of warranty or was a kit assembled incorrectly.

-Eric


----------



## mandrake50

As an aside. A friend from work got a new set of IEMs. He asked me if they were supposed to give him static shocks...
 He was running them straight out of a brand new HP Ultrabook.
 He told me that there are lots of hits on Google by people with lots of different IEMs and amps. Frankly, I had never heard of the problem, but apparently it does happen and is not all that unusual.
  
 BTW, which amp do you have? What DAC are you using? Does it seem that the shocks are caused by static electricity, or something stronger?
 I have two Sunrise III amps, an Ember, and a Polaris. No problems with any of them when using any IEM that I have. Including some with all metal bodies.


----------



## amigastar

Hello,
  
 i have a question. How do i clean my Ember 2.0 since there is so much dust on and in it.
 I suppose a soft Paintbrush would do the job, right? Dust off with the paintbrush.


----------



## DavidA

amigastar said:


> Hello,
> 
> i have a question. How do i clean my Ember 2.0 since there is so much dust on and in it.
> I suppose a soft Paintbrush would do the job, right? Dust off with the paintbrush.


 

 The soft paint brush is good, maybe a can of compressed air but don't get to close.


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> Hello,
> 
> i have a question. How do i clean my Ember 2.0 since there is so much dust on and in it.
> I suppose a soft Paintbrush would do the job, right? Dust off with the paintbrush.


 
  
 I use a Giotto Rocket:


----------



## amigastar

Thanks guys
  
 Since i don't have a compressed air device i will try the Paintbrush.


----------



## DavidA

amigastar said:


> Thanks guys
> 
> Since i don't have a compressed air device i will try the Paintbrush.


 

 When I say compressed air I mean this: http://www.amazon.com/Dust-Off-Compressed-Gas-Duster-Pack/dp/B00DZYEXPQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1465141617&sr=8-2&keywords=compressed+air


----------



## amigastar

I know DavidA,
  
 but since i want to upgrade my DAC in the near future i have to save every penny, lol. So a soft paint brush will do it


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> When I say compressed air I mean this: http://www.amazon.com/Dust-Off-Compressed-Gas-Duster-Pack/dp/B00DZYEXPQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1465141617&sr=8-2&keywords=compressed+air


 
 I wonder whether the 'bitter ant' (sic) will improve the sound.


----------



## husafreak

I have a Giotto air blaster and the can of compressed air too, the air blaster works fine but not as much force as the cans. The cans can spew frozen material which might not be so good especially on a hot circuit. Way better than a brush though


----------



## HiHead Hunter

Complete newbie to tubes, I have my new Ember with 3 tubes: RCA cleartop 12au7, 6n6p and 6sn7 sylvania. For the life of me I cannot tell a difference between them. I listen and listen and whatever differences there are, they are imperceptible to my ears.
  
 I also have compared using an integrated NAD C350 amp and even though I can detect a slight difference (I think all tubes present slightly more clear sound), i don't think I can tell the difference between the tubes and it in a blind test.
  
 Now before you ask, there is nothing wrong with my hearing and I listen with an ear for lots of detail. All music I listen to is classical and have been testing the tubes with orchestral pieces. So I'm baffled. Are the 3 tubes I got so similar? Those who have listened to them, can you hear a distinct difference? Right now the only benefit of the Ember over the NAD is that it is much more portable. Oh, and I do like the sound of it but as you can guess I also like the sound of the NAD,


----------



## Alchemist007

The difference to me between a 6sn7 and the cleartop is minor but I think the former sounds a bit fuller. What headphones are you using?


----------



## HiHead Hunter

alchemist007 said:


> The difference to me between a 6sn7 and the cleartop is minor but I think the former sounds a bit fuller. What headphones are you using?


 
 HD650


----------



## DavidA

hihead hunter said:


> Complete newbie to tubes, I have my new Ember with 3 tubes: RCA cleartop 12au7, 6n6p and 6sn7 sylvania. For the life of me I cannot tell a difference between them. I listen and listen and whatever differences there are, they are imperceptible to my ears.
> 
> I also have compared using an integrated NAD C350 amp and even though I can detect a slight difference (I think all tubes present slightly more clear sound), i don't think I can tell the difference between the tubes and it in a blind test.
> 
> Now before you ask, there is nothing wrong with my hearing and I listen with an ear for lots of detail. All music I listen to is classical and have been testing the tubes with orchestral pieces. So I'm baffled. Are the 3 tubes I got so similar? Those who have listened to them, can you hear a distinct difference? Right now the only benefit of the Ember over the NAD is that it is much more portable. Oh, and I do like the sound of it but as you can guess I also like the sound of the NAD,


 
 While I don't have a 6SN7 Sylvania, the other 2 tubes are quite similar in the Ember.  I think it takes a little time to get used to listening for the slight differences in tubes, many say that this or that tube is a big improvement but in my experience the differences are quite subtle most of the time.
  
 A great learning tool is the Golden Ear program (just found out that it was shut down 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 But you can try this: http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.de/
  
 One way of listening for the differences is try changing the output resistance/impedance on the Ember with the HD-650, you will need to adjust the volume also but you should be able to hear the slight differences in the how the highs are presented and how the tightness of the bass is affected.  You can change the jumper setting while the amp is on so the changes happen in real time, just try to match the volume as close as possible.


----------



## HOWIE13

hihead hunter said:


> Complete newbie to tubes, I have my new Ember with 3 tubes: RCA cleartop 12au7, 6n6p and 6sn7 sylvania. For the life of me I cannot tell a difference between them. I listen and listen and whatever differences there are, they are imperceptible to my ears.
> 
> I also have compared using an integrated NAD C350 amp and even though I can detect a slight difference (I think all tubes present slightly more clear sound), i don't think I can tell the difference between the tubes and it in a blind test.
> 
> Now before you ask, there is nothing wrong with my hearing and I listen with an ear for lots of detail. All music I listen to is classical and have been testing the tubes with orchestral pieces. So I'm baffled. Are the 3 tubes I got so similar? Those who have listened to them, can you hear a distinct difference? Right now the only benefit of the Ember over the NAD is that it is much more portable. Oh, and I do like the sound of it but as you can guess I also like the sound of the NAD,


 
 Hi Hihead Hunter. 
  
 For Classical I find the HD650 benefits from a cool, clear tube. That's just the way my ears like it, and for this I prefer the 6DJ8, ECC88, E88CC tube types. If you can source a Tungsram, Tesla, Bugle Boy, GE smoked/dark glass, or an E80CC Tungsram, and listen to some smaller scale baroque chamber music- Bach, Handel, Corelli, Vivaldi etc are ideal, I think you should hear the difference from the tubes you already have. Solo piano and violin are also good to discern differences as are vocals, Lieder particularly, where the resonance of the voice can vary greatly from tube to tube.
 I can't say you will prefer the sound to what you already have but you should begin to appreciate the fantastic potential Ember offers for the benefits of tube rolling.
  
 I should add that once you start to pick up the sonic differences they then become obvious thereafter-and tube rolling can become very addictive!


----------



## joespride

hihead hunter said:


> Complete newbie to tubes, I have my new Ember with 3 tubes: RCA cleartop 12au7, 6n6p and 6sn7 sylvania. For the life of me I cannot tell a difference between them. I listen and listen and whatever differences there are, they are imperceptible to my ears.
> 
> I also have compared using an integrated NAD C350 amp and even though I can detect a slight difference (I think all tubes present slightly more clear sound), i don't think I can tell the difference between the tubes and it in a blind test.
> 
> Now before you ask, there is nothing wrong with my hearing and I listen with an ear for lots of detail. All music I listen to is classical and have been testing the tubes with orchestral pieces. So I'm baffled. Are the 3 tubes I got so similar? Those who have listened to them, can you hear a distinct difference? Right now the only benefit of the Ember over the NAD is that it is much more portable. Oh, and I do like the sound of it but as you can guess I also like the sound of the NAD,


 
 Try listening for what is missing instead of hearing something new improved. It may require you listening to 1 tube for a week or more then move to the next tube for a week or so and see if you are missing something in the presentation


----------



## HiHead Hunter

davida said:


> While I don't have a 6SN7 Sylvania, the other 2 tubes are quite similar in the Ember.  I think it takes a little time to get used to listening for the slight differences in tubes, many say that this or that tube is a big improvement but in my experience the differences are quite subtle most of the time.
> 
> A great learning tool is the Golden Ear program (just found out that it was shut down
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for that link, I'll check it out soon. Indeed I have experimented with the output resistance settings and have found that there is a very noticeable differencet between high, mid and low. I like high the best on all three of my tubes. The sound on mid seems to highlight the mids more and also expand the soundstage, unnaturally to my ears. But the difference between the output resistance settings is much larger than the difference between the tubes. The input gain doesn't seem to have any other effect except to increase or decrease the volume. I am using high gain as with low I'm usually in the 2-3 o'clock position, which for some reason I find abnormal as I'm used to integrated amps where I'm normally in the 9-11 o'clock.


----------



## HiHead Hunter

howie13 said:


> Hi Hihead Hunter.
> 
> For Classical I find the HD650 benefits from a cool, clear tube. That's just the way my ears like it, and for this I prefer the 6DJ8, ECC88, E88CC tube types. If you can source a Tungsram, Tesla, Bugle Boy, GE smoked/dark glass, or an E80CC Tungsram, and listen to some smaller scale baroque chamber music- Bach, Handel, Corelli, Vivaldi etc are ideal, I think you should hear the difference from the tubes you already have. Solo piano and violin are also good to discern differences as are vocals, Lieder particularly, where the resonance of the voice can vary greatly from tube to tube.
> I can't say you will prefer the sound to what you already have but you should begin to appreciate the fantastic potential Ember offers for the benefits of tube rolling.
> ...


 
 Thanks. When you said "if you can source" some tubes, do you mean that I would need an adapter for them to fit? I only have the 6sn7 adapter.


----------



## HiHead Hunter

joespride said:


> Try listening for what is missing instead of hearing something new improved. It may require you listening to 1 tube for a week or more then move to the next tube for a week or so and see if you are missing something in the presentation


 
 Yeah, I will try this approach next. Although at some point I'm hoping to get to a sound I like(I think I'm there now, almost) and focus on the music rather than constantly trying to find something better sonically. I was just really surprised that the differences between the tubes were not as pronounces as the impression I got from reading a lot of the reviews.


----------



## DavidA

hihead hunter said:


> Thanks for that link, I'll check it out soon. Indeed I have experimented with the output resistance settings and have found that there is a very noticeable differencet between high, mid and low. I like high the best on all three of my tubes. The sound on mid seems to highlight the mids more and also expand the soundstage, unnaturally to my ears. But the difference between the output resistance settings is much larger than the difference between the tubes. The input gain doesn't seem to have any other effect except to increase or decrease the volume. I am using high gain as with low I'm usually in the 2-3 o'clock position, which for some reason I find abnormal as I'm used to integrated amps where I'm normally in the 9-11 o'clock.


 
 I have my input gain on low and don't get pass 11 with any headphone and this is with a 12AU7 Telefunken, if I use a 12AT7 I get even less volume pot range before it gets to loud.
  
 With the HD-650 I also get the best sound with the high setting and you are right that the output resistance setting will usually have a larger effect than the tube but not always.  Looks like you are well on your way.  The advice that @HOWIE13 and @joespride is solid and something I will also try.


----------



## HiHead Hunter

davida said:


> I have my input gain on low and don't get pass 11 with any headphone and this is with a 12AU7 Telefunken, if I use a 12AT7 I get even less volume pot range before it gets to loud.
> 
> With the HD-650 I also get the best sound with the high setting and you are right that the output resistance setting will usually have a larger effect than the tube but not always.  Looks like you are well on your way.  The advice that @HOWIE13 and @joespride is solid and something I will also try.


 
 Interesting about the gain. It probably doesn't matter but my COD is taking over and must muse over this. I am using a high output CD player for source (if I use it with an integrated amp, I don't usually go past 10 as it gets very loud) and even on non-classical music, which tends to have lower volume than non-classical, I still go to around 2 for normal listening. I wonder if your Ember is different from mine. I read somewhere that there was a change to decrease the volume output on low gain in Ember done some time last year.


----------



## DavidA

hihead hunter said:


> Interesting about the gain. It probably doesn't matter but my COD is taking over and must muse over this. I am using a high output CD player for source (if I use it with an integrated amp, I don't usually go past 10 as it gets very loud) and even on non-classical music, which tends to have lower volume than non-classical, I still go to around 2 for normal listening. I wonder if your Ember is different from mine. I read somewhere that there was a change to decrease the volume output on low gain in Ember done some time last year.


 
 I think its because mine is the original Ember, not the second generation, don't worry about this.


----------



## HOWIE13

hihead hunter said:


> Thanks. When you said "if you can source" some tubes, do you mean that I would need an adapter for them to fit? I only have the 6sn7 adapter.


 
 No you don't need any adapter for those tube types I suggested. They just slot into Ember's socket directly, like your 12AU7 and 6N6P, and Ember does the rest.


----------



## HOWIE13

hihead hunter said:


> Interesting about the gain. It probably doesn't matter but my COD is taking over and must muse over this. I am using a high output CD player for source (if I use it with an integrated amp, I don't usually go past 10 as it gets very loud) and even on non-classical music, which tends to have lower volume than non-classical, I still go to around 2 for normal listening. I wonder if your Ember is different from mine. I read somewhere that there was a change to decrease the volume output on low gain in Ember done some time last year.


 
 The input gain attenuator is to use with high sensitivity, low impedance headphones so you don't max out on your vol pot too soon, especially below 9 o'clock where there may be some channel imbalance.
 For the HD 650 and for most of even my more sensitive headphones I usually leave the gain on high/non-attenuated. Only when I want to listen to music at extremely low volume do I invoke the input gain attenuation module.
 There may be differences between different models as Jeremy may have used different module resistor values over time.
 You can also make your own modules, choosing your own resistor values if the module supplied isn't suitable. It's just a simple Dip-8 socket, Jeremy sells them.


----------



## HiHead Hunter

davida said:


> I think its because mine is the original Ember, not the second generation, don't worry about this.


 
 Yep. Thanks.


----------



## HiHead Hunter

howie13 said:


> No you don't need any adapter for those tube types I suggested. They just slot into Ember's socket directly, like your 12AU7 and 6N6P, and Ember does the rest.


 
 Cool. Thanks. I wish there were a local tubes shop where I can try them and get the ones I like. Going by what others like on the internet is hit-and-miss.


----------



## HiHead Hunter

howie13 said:


> The input gain attenuator is to use with high sensitivity, low impedance headphones so you don't max out on your vol pot too soon, especially below 9 o'clock where there may be some channel imbalance.
> For the HD 650 and for most of even my more sensitive headphones I usually leave the gain on high/non-attenuated. Only when I want to listen to music at extremely low volume do I invoke the input gain attenuation module.
> There may be differences between different models as Jeremy may have used different module resistor values over time.
> You can also make your own modules, choosing your own resistor values if the module supplied isn't suitable. It's just a simple Dip-8 socket, Jeremy sells them.


 
 Good to know, thanks.


----------



## HOWIE13

hihead hunter said:


> Cool. Thanks. I wish there were a local tubes shop where I can try them and get the ones I like. Going by what others like on the internet is hit-and-miss.


 
 So far, eBay has been fine for me. I must have bought a hundred or so tubes in the last two years and only 2 or 3 didn't work. They were immediately replaced without any problem.
 I won't buy from a seller who won't accept returns.
 There are some inaccurate descriptions but mostly the tubes for Ember, at least the 9 pin ones, are ubiquitous. Some of the descriptions for Octals, though, can be more dodgy.
 Good luck!


----------



## DavidA

hihead hunter said:


> Cool. Thanks. I wish there were a local tubes shop where I can try them and get the ones I like. Going by what others like on the internet is hit-and-miss.


 
 Every tube I've gotten from Ebay has worked and for the most parts very good.  As @HOWIE13 noted, make sure that the vendor has a good return policy.


----------



## mikesale

hihead hunter said:


> Now before you ask, there is nothing wrong with my hearing and I listen with an ear for lots of detail. All music I listen to is classical and have been testing the tubes with orchestral pieces. So I'm baffled. Are the 3 tubes I got so similar? Those who have listened to them, can you hear a distinct difference? Right now the only benefit of the Ember over the NAD is that it is much more portable. Oh, and I do like the sound of it but as you can guess I also like the sound of the NAD,


 
  
 You may want to branch out in your music selection as well to some chamber music. Orchestral music tends to be highly textured and complex (one of the reasons I love it so and am a subscriber to my local orchestra). I found the following classical works great for comparisons, but you'll need to spend many hours to get a valid comparison:

Starker Bach Cello suites (Mercury Live Presence)
Kodama Beethoven Piano Sonatas (Pentatone)
Fliter Chopin Preludes
Emerson Quartet Schubert Death and the Maiden
Grimaud/Gabetta "Duo" album
Pires Chopin Nocturnes
 Familiarity with the recording is important. I suspect you have others that you will find helpful.
  
 If you're an orchestra only person, check out some of the amazing recordings on the "Reference Recordings" label. The dynamics and texture of the recordings are ecstatic at times! Particularly great for auditions are Eiji Oue doing Fanfare of the Common Man and Firebird.
  
 Again, taking hours to become intimate with the recordings on your equipment is key to recognizing the differences in the same way a musician can understand a the beauty of a piece performed that they're intimately familiar with (or be brought to great emotion by it's failed performance). Once you have those hours logged, you begin to notice things missing and added when you swap out equipment.


----------



## HiHead Hunter

mikesale said:


> You may want to branch out in your music selection as well to some chamber music. Orchestral music tends to be highly textured and complex (one of the reasons I love it so and am a subscriber to my local orchestra). I found the following classical works great for comparisons, but you'll need to spend many hours to get a valid comparison:
> 
> Starker Bach Cello suites (Mercury Live Presence)
> Kodama Beethoven Piano Sonatas (Pentatone)
> ...


 
 Hey, thanks for your thoughts. No, I'm not just an orchestra person. I listen to lots of chamber and solo piano music (and the Bach cello suites) but was focusing on orchestral music for my initial week of comparison. I am very intimately familiar with the music I was playing: I know exactly how the woodwinds sound in certain passages, exactly how sweet massed violins sound, exactly how impactful a timpani stroke is, how the cellos and basses sing, etc. and was looking for differences in those details and overall sound as well.
  
 Incidentally, I do have the Eiji recording of the Firebird and Rite of Spring and it was one of the CDs I played. It's one of a handful of HDCDs I have.


----------



## HOWIE13

mikesale said:


> You may want to branch out in your music selection as well to some chamber music. Orchestral music tends to be highly textured and complex (one of the reasons I love it so and am a subscriber to my local orchestra). I found the following classical works great for comparisons, but you'll need to spend many hours to get a valid comparison:
> 
> Starker Bach Cello suites (Mercury Live Presence)
> Kodama Beethoven Piano Sonatas (Pentatone)
> ...


 
 Great list there mikesale. I think the Emersons are the best recordings of Schubert quartets I've heard.


----------



## bilboda

Critical listening is a difficult thing. You focus on an instrument or instruments and when you look for differences and don't find any. Likely because you are too narrowly focused. In my mind this is a problem with blind testing.
  
 Some changes are really only noticed when you are enjoying your music. Something catches your attention.
  
 For me, it was discovering more precise placement of an instrument on the left with audibly clear space from other instruments on the stage. My eyes were closed at the time and when it caught my attention, my mind immediately tried to visualize what was happening. Blackness around the instrument is all I could see. Perhaps because my eyes were closed or more likely because it was an audio recording, no video included. It was the distinction that mattered though.
  
  A big thanks to connieflyer for the extra tubes included with the Ember he sold me. They are all good . I think it was the 6L5 I was using but I needed to try out the 6sn7g and 6j5gt pairs too.


----------



## HOWIE13

bilboda said:


> Critical listening is a difficult thing. You focus on an instrument or instruments and when you look for differences and don't find any. Likely because you are too narrowly focused. In my mind this is a problem with blind testing.
> 
> Some changes are really only noticed when you are enjoying your music. Something catches your attention.
> 
> ...


 
 That's really interesting about the eyes 
 Depending on the recording I sometimes get heightened realism with my eyes closed and sometimes with them open.
 Isn't the brain strange.


----------



## mikesale

hihead hunter said:


> Hey, thanks for your thoughts. No, I'm not just an orchestra person. I listen to lots of chamber and solo piano music (and the Bach cello suites) but was focusing on orchestral music for my initial week of comparison. I am very intimately familiar with the music I was playing: I know exactly how the woodwinds sound in certain passages, exactly how sweet massed violins sound, exactly how impactful a timpani stroke is, how the cellos and basses sing, etc. and was looking for differences in those details and overall sound as well.
> 
> Incidentally, I do have the Eiji recording of the Firebird and Rite of Spring and it was one of the CDs I played. It's one of a handful of HDCDs I have.


 

 Based on my experience, I think you'll find only a deeply subtle difference with your current comparison that you'll find over time in particular sections where your ears just perk up. 
  
 Sounds like you audition things from the opposite direction and start with Orchestral. Everyone has their own approach that works, more important to stick to it if it's working for you!


----------



## HiHead Hunter

mikesale said:


> Based on my experience, I think you'll find only a deeply subtle difference with your current comparison that you'll find over time in particular sections where your ears just perk up.
> 
> Sounds like you audition things from the opposite direction and start with Orchestral. Everyone has their own approach that works, more important to stick to it if it's working for you!


 
 Yes, subtle differences is what I'm looking for now  If you read some of the original reviews of the tubes, you'd think it's a night and day difference. 
  
 By the way, I noticed you have Asgard 2 and Lyr in your sig. How do they compare to Ember?


----------



## DavidA

hihead hunter said:


> Yes, subtle differences is what I'm looking for now  If you read some of the original reviews of the tubes, you'd think it's a night and day difference.
> 
> By the way, I noticed you have Asgard 2 and Lyr in your sig. How do they compare to Ember?


 
 Slight differences in tone, Ember is the warmest, Lyr2 just a touch on the warmer side but tubes will make some differences, and Asgard2 is just a touch on the bright side to me.
  
 Glad you noticed that many over state the differences any change makes.  I was like you, yes there is a difference but its not a night and day difference.


----------



## mikesale

hihead hunter said:


> Yes, subtle differences is what I'm looking for now  If you read some of the original reviews of the tubes, you'd think it's a night and day difference.
> 
> By the way, I noticed you have Asgard 2 and Lyr in your sig. How do they compare to Ember?


 

 Not yet heard a "night and day" difference with anything outside of headphones or mismatching headphone to the wrong amp. 
  
 Asgard has exactly what you'd expect for solid state: dry & transparent. I don't often listen to it outside of comparisons any longer. It has done me well for what I wanted from it. Lyr & Ember are signatures I prefer whereas the Asgard... has no signature by design 
  
 Lyr and Ember are more a comparison (and what I prefer currently). The flexibility of the Ember makes it a great choice with various headphones, but for my ears and musical tastes I prefer the Lyr with my HE-560 and the Ember with everything else and even with some recordings I prefer the Ember with the right tube(s). In *all* these cases the differences are insanely minute and require time and attention for me to clearly differentiate (and even still have to decide which I prefer sometimes takes even longer!) It typically takes me a solid week of listening focused on one setup then switching to the other to compare effectively with a minimum of 20 hours of listening while doing *nothing* other then notes with paper and pencil in front of me. While my computer "runs" the music, I use remote from my iPad to keep from distractions.
  
 I'm still pretty new to the Ember and I love it. If I had to go to just one amp it would definitely be the Ember.


----------



## DavidA

mikesale said:


> Not yet heard a "night and day" difference with anything outside of headphones or mismatching headphone to the wrong amp.
> 
> Asgard has exactly what you'd expect for solid state: dry & transparent. I don't often listen to it outside of comparisons any longer. It has done me well for what I wanted from it. Lyr & Ember are signatures I prefer whereas the Asgard... has no signature by design
> 
> ...


 

 Agree with the Lyr2 for the HE-560, the only place where the Ember would be my second choice is with the HD-800 and T1, they just pair better with a BH Crack, for the HD-600/650 its pretty close between the Ember and BH Crack, I tend to favor the Ember for the HD-600 and the BH Crack for the HD-650.
 I'm different from you in that I change headphones and DAC/amp combos all the time so slight changes have become easier to notice for me.  Best thing is I have 2 HD-700's and 2 HD-650's (the second pair of each are my GF's), easy to level match 2 amps and just need to switch headphones, and if I let my GF do the switching its like doing a blind test since I can't go by feel since its the same headphone.


----------



## mikesale

davida said:


> Agree with the Lyr2 for the HE-560, the only place where the Ember would be my second choice is with the HD-800 and T1, they just pair better with a BH Crack, for the HD-600/650 its pretty close between the Ember and BH Crack, I tend to favor the Ember for the HD-600 and the BH Crack for the HD-650.
> I'm different from you in that I change headphones and DAC/amp combos all the time so slight changes have become easier to notice for me.  Best thing is I have 2 HD-700's and 2 HD-650's (the second pair of each are my GF's), easy to level match 2 amps and just need to switch headphones, and if I let my GF do the switching its like doing a blind test since I can't go by feel since its the same headphone.


 

 You insights have always been a pleasure to read. I have no where near the stable that you do, nor likely the time (I'm no where near semi retired in career or dad-hood with two daughters just entering into teen and tween).
  
 I do a good bit of A/B testing with a get-up I have: a headphone switch with an RCA switch for both DAC and AMP so I can switch between 3 different headphones, 4 different DACs (or different DAC inputs) and 2 different amps. 
  
 I have found that A/B testing finds specific distinct differences in particulars for specific recordings, but to get an overall sense of what I prefer, I combine A/B with longer focused, critical listening over a week each where I try to minimize changes after the first day or so to get "burned in" (I'm of the school that much of what people think of as product burn in is actually our ears becoming more aware and accustomed to the change). The hardest temptation is to keep from not rolling different tubes when I run into something I think a particular tube will render more to my liking. I stumble and partake a bit sometimes, but I get back on the wagon quickly enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Again, thank you for sharing your methodology and I look forward to learning more from your adventures!


----------



## DavidA

@mikesale, I have a hard time listening with the same setup for any length of time due to my GF living with me and we are always switching headphones, like a try this or I think you might like this better banter between us.  Not to mention her girlfriends are over a few times a week and want to listen to different headphones and DAC/amp combos.  My GF's friends are just starting out and they got a lot more interested ever since I gave them Momentum on-ears for birthday or x-mas presents (they were really cheap most of last year since the new version came out, picked up a few in the $48 to $54 range for used-like new ones) since most were just using the ear-buds that came with their smart phones.
  
 As for rolling tubes, I've gone to just rotating them about once a month or so unless I get new ones, like you I want to get to know the tube a little better and how it interacts with the different headphones.  But I will say when I first started I was changing tubes up to 10 times in a day with the Ember and Lyr2, the BH Crack I've never really wanted to roll tubes much after getting the TS-5998 or WE 421A, granted they are pricy so after getting 1 of each I decided to look for more and found that with some searching and luck I've found them for great prices and now have 4 of each and rotate them at once a month intervals.
  
 Looking at your signature you are well on your way to catching up 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Also look forward to your adventures


----------



## Astral Abyss

I just scored a matched pair of Tung-Sol VT-94A/6J5G off ebay.  They're NOS, never used.  1942 vintage and came in original boxes.  Breaking them in right now.  They sound excellent already.  Can't wait to see what a little break-in does for them.


----------



## lalala6

Downsizing my tube collection so I'm letting go of these tubes. All have been tested to work fine and sound great in the Ember.
  
 - RCA 12AU7A Cleartops (2 of them, second is free)
 - Amperex 6DJ8 Bugle Boy
 - Amperex 6DJ8, GE branded
 - GE 6DJ8 Smoked Glass (quite microphonic)
 - Russian 6N6P Gold Grid
 - Electro Harmonix 6N30P
 - RCA 6SN7GTB (6SN7 adapter required)
  
 All these for only $85 shipped. (paid over $180 for them)
  
 Send me a PM if interested!


----------



## husafreak

Wow I have 4 of the tubes you listed!


----------



## lalala6

husafreak said:


> Wow I have 4 of the tubes you listed!



Which 4? Haha just curious.


----------



## husafreak

The 6n6p, 6sn7gtb, and a couple of GE 6dj8 smoked glass. The first two there are favorites. Mostly I listen to the 6SN7GTB.


----------



## HOWIE13

lalala6 said:


> Downsizing my tube collection so I'm letting go of these tubes. All have been tested to work fine and sound great in the Ember.
> 
> - RCA 12AU7A Cleartops (2 of them, second is free)
> - Amperex 6DJ8 Bugle Boy
> ...


 
 Bugle Boy is probably my favourite 6DJ8. 
 I also have the 6N6P, GE Smoked Glass, and Cleartops.
 They are all excellent tubes for Ember and would give anyone first purchasing tubes for Ember a good variety of sound to demonstrate Ember's versatility.


----------



## DavidA

howie13 said:


> Bugle Boy is probably my favourite 6DJ8.
> I also have the 6N6P, GE Smoked Glass, and Cleartops.
> They are all excellent tubes for Ember and would give anyone first purchasing tubes for Ember a good variety of sound to demonstrate Ember's versatility.


 
 I've always like the 12AU7/12AT7 Telefunken and 6N23P Voskhod


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> I've always like the 12AU7/12AT7 Telefunken and 6N23P Voskhod


 
 Not heard the Telefunkens but I like that Voskhod too. I only have one and it's the single wire variety.
 The dual wire variety is meant to be even better.


----------



## DavidA

howie13 said:


> Not heard the Telefunkens but I like that Voskhod too. I only have one and it's the single wire variety.
> The dual wire variety is meant to be even better.


 
 Only problem with the Telefunkens is that they have really gone up in price, back in 2014 I was paying about $20 to $25 per tube, now they are going for $40+ and even higher for the gold pin ones I've seen lately.


----------



## HOWIE13

davida said:


> Only problem with the Telefunkens is that they have really gone up in price, back in 2014 I was paying about $20 to $25 per tube, now they are going for $40+ and even higher for the gold pin ones I've seen lately.


 
 Sadly,I think that goes for a lot of tubes. Some of the 6SN7's are now so much more expensive than 2-3 years ago.
 Like you, I suspect, I'm glad I bought most of my tubes way back-but I've got a big problem with those 5998 and 7236's for Elise.


----------



## DavidA

howie13 said:


> Sadly,I think that goes for a lot of tubes. Some of the 6SN7's are now so much more expensive than 2-3 years ago.
> Like you, I suspect, I'm glad I bought most of my tubes way back-but I've got a big problem with those 5998 and 7236's for Elise.


 
 Glad I got my TS5998 way back also


----------



## Alchemist007

It's interesting how different tubes can work with different music. I thought I liked the 6sn7 more than the cleartop 12au7 all around but the cleartop gave me a more revealing soundstage on this one song where the 6sn7 was unexpectedly more narrow and bloaty.


----------



## nix177

I am looking for a decent 6sn7 tube that doesn't hurt my wallet... I recently just brought HE-400i and Ember II. Going to buy a modi 2 uber once I save up enough money. I want a good 6sn7 tube for under $50. 
  
 I was thinking either I get:
  
 SYLVANIA 6SN7GTA with the adapter
  
 or 
  
 Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8
  
 I been doing a lot of research, most say the 6sn7 with an adapter sound way better than anything else.
  
 What is your recommended list of tubes for the Ember 2 with Hifiman he-400i? If you also think the 6sn7 is better can you give me a list from your favorite to least? You know any good seller on ebay that sells good tube?


----------



## DecentLevi

nix177 said:


> I am looking for a decent 6sn7 tube that doesn't hurt my wallet... I recently just brought HE-400i and Ember II. Going to buy a modi 2 uber once I save up enough money. I want a good 6sn7 tube for under $50.
> 
> I was thinking either I get:
> 
> ...


 
 I will be the first to chime in, but time is limited so I hope somebody can give you more help.
  
 Firstly I'm not sure I'd recommend using IEMs on the Ember, as they pair well with larger headphones, and many 3rd party adapter setups can cause some hum sound, which is especially noticeable on IEMs being they are lower impedance.
  
 If you're going for a Sylvania 6SN7 then get the orange / brown base ones if you like a lush / tubey / euphonic sound, or if you prefer more of a clean sound with well defined bass then go for a GE 6SN7 GTA tube. What sonic preferences do you have, in terms of what kind of a tone or soundstage or bass / mids / treble do you like?


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> I am looking for a decent 6sn7 tube that doesn't hurt my wallet... I recently just brought HE-400i and Ember II. Going to buy a modi 2 uber once I save up enough money. I want a good 6sn7 tube for under $50.
> 
> I was thinking either I get:
> 
> ...


 
 I have HE400 and it pairs very well with Bugle Boy. Lots of detail.
  
 If you want a warmer sound, with larger sound-stage but a bit less precise imaging than Bugle Boy there are several good 6SN7's including the GE that DL has recommended, which is also one of my favourites. Tung-Sol do a 6SN7GTB, which is very good value and a Mouse-Ears which is also very good.
  
 Here's a useful link Hi-Fiers regularly refer to:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread


----------



## DavidA

nix177 said:


> I am looking for a decent 6sn7 tube that doesn't hurt my wallet... I recently just brought HE-400i and Ember II. Going to buy a modi 2 uber once I save up enough money. I want a good 6sn7 tube for under $50.
> 
> I was thinking either I get:
> 
> ...


 
 what type of sound are you trying to get?  I thinking neutral/warm based on the tubes you have listed.  I've tried a sylvania 6SN7GTB, TS 6SN7GT, and Telefunken 6SN7GTA, a little more than the $50 for the second 2.  They all were pretty good but I've usually went with 12AU7 tubes since my GF likes the glow from the LED light under the tube 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
 Telefunken, RCA clear top and Voskhod


----------



## nix177

I do prefer a larger sound-stage, precise imaging and natural type of sound. I tried the 6n6p and I find it too slow and not define although it is musical. I was thinking if I should just spend money on a Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 or a 6sn7. If 6sn7 is clearly an upgrade over the 6dj8 then I don't mind spending a few more bucks. 
  
 Howie, how much do you want for the Amperex Bugle Boy 6dj8?


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> I do prefer a larger sound-stage, precise imaging and natural type of sound. I tried the 6n6p and I find it too slow and not define although it is musical. I was thinking if I should just spend money on a Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 or a 6sn7. If 6sn7 is clearly an upgrade over the 6dj8 then I don't mind spending a few more bucks.
> 
> Howie, how much do you want for the Amperex Bugle Boy 6dj8?


 
 Hi nix177
  
 It's lalala6 who is selling  the Bugle Boy not me. I'm keeping hold of mine.
  
 It's not really a question of 6SN7's being an upgrade over 6DJ8's. It all depends on what sort of sound you are hoping to achieve. There are 6SN7's that are less warm than some 9 pin tubes too. As to your sound preference the GE 6DJ8 dark/smoked glass is nicely detailed and natural sounding, as is Bugle Boy.
  
 You will have to try various tubes out for yourself. Whilst other rollers and articles about tubes will give you a general consensus, your own ears will be the final arbiter for you.


----------



## DavidA

nix177 said:


> I do prefer a larger sound-stage, precise imaging and natural type of sound. I tried the 6n6p and I find it too slow and not define although it is musical. I was thinking if I should just spend money on a Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 or a 6sn7. If 6sn7 is clearly an upgrade over the 6dj8 then I don't mind spending a few more bucks.
> 
> Howie, how much do you want for the Amperex Bugle Boy 6dj8?


 
 For sound stage, imaging, dynamics and clarity the Telefunken 12AU7 or 12AX7 are hard to beat but they are not cheap.  I have some 6JD8/6922 Telefunken CCa's which are about as good as it gets for the Lyr2 but they don't seem to sound as good in the Ember, for the most parts I've noticed channel imbalances with some of the 6JD8/6922 that I have for my Lyr2 when I use them in the Ember.


----------



## m17xr2b

For the past months I really enjoyed tube rolling with the ember. I'ts a fantastic amp and one of my all time favorites. It drives the HD800 as HEK very well when using the right tubes.
  

  
 Among my favorite tubes are the Fivre 6SN7, RCA 5692 Red base, Tungsram E80CC, Philips E188CC. Of course each has it's strengths and weaknesses based on what music and headphones I am listening to. It took me a long time to figure out there is no one tube to rule them all.


----------



## HOWIE13

m17xr2b said:


> For the past months I really enjoyed tube rolling with the ember. I'ts a fantastic amp and one of my all time favorites. It drives the HD800 as HEK very well when using the right tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> Among my favorite tubes are the Fivre 6SN7, RCA 5692 Red base, Tungsram E80CC, Philips E188CC. Of course each has it's strengths and weaknesses based on what music and headphones I am listening to. It took me a long time to figure out there is no one tube to rule them all.


 
 I love the sound of that Tungsram- it's great in Horizon too.


----------



## RedBull

That look like one happy Ember. Surrounded by great headphones, tubes and fed by the mighty Yggy!


----------



## nix177

Can some veterans here give me your bias opinion on some settings on ember 2.1 on ken rad 6sn7gt with HE400i and HD650. Since I am still new to audiophile and I don't really have a reference point on what is good or bad sound yet. I will try my best to describe:
  
 My current setup Modi 2 Uber > Ember 2.1 with ken rad 6sn7gt vt-231 (low gain), (low or med output resistance), bypass cap > he-400i (35 ohms). 
  
 My questions is I am not sure if I should set it to low OR med output resistance. When I set it med output it seems there is more distance from me to the stage and the vocal is more focus but I lost some bass detail (I think, I am not sure. Maybe just tighter? but definitely I hear less stuff on the lower end). When I set it to low output, I can hear more bass detail example drums traveling further from right to left but vocal is more upfront and everything seems floating and the stage is not as tangible. So I am not sure what is good or preferred. 
  
 Also I have a pair of HD650 coming next week. What is your gain setting and output setting for this cans? Since it is high impedance HP instead of lower impedance HP like my HE-400i.


----------



## Tunkejazz

nix177 said:


> Can some veterans here give me your bias opinion on some settings on ember 2.1 on ken rad 6sn7gt with HE400i and HD650. Since I am still new to audiophile and I don't really have a reference point on what is good or bad sound yet. I will try my best to describe:
> 
> My current setup Modi 2 Uber > Ember 2.1 with ken rad 6sn7gt vt-231 (low gain), (low or med output resistance), bypass cap > he-400i (35 ohms).
> 
> ...




I have that tube and the He400i. I use it with low output R. Great bass, but a bit thin mids in my opinion. I use high gain, my brain believes that the sound is coming out more dynamic, but I guess it is a placebo effect.

BTW, I think the only tube that gave me a significantly more visceral and deeper bass is the rca 6C8G. Unfortunately it needs a different adaptor. An alternative to the KR in the same family with slightly less bass but better mids is a Sylvania bad boy (3 holes in the black mica from 51/52). 

But I still haven't found a tube that comes close to a pair of Visseaux 6J5 that HOWIE13 introduced to all of us.


----------



## d3rrlck

nix177 said:


> Can some veterans here give me your bias opinion on some settings on ember 2.1 on ken rad 6sn7gt with HE400i and HD650. Since I am still new to audiophile and I don't really have a reference point on what is good or bad sound yet. I will try my best to describe:
> 
> My current setup Modi 2 Uber > Ember 2.1 with ken rad 6sn7gt vt-231 (low gain), (low or med output resistance), bypass cap > he-400i (35 ohms).
> 
> ...


 
  
 The gain setting for ember is on the input, low and high input attenuation. The modi 2u has a weak lineout, so make sure your ember is set to low input attenuation, otherwise you'll lose some volume there. 400i is only 35ohm ( i have same HP, and I also have the ken rad 6sn7gt glass). I remember playing around with the output resistance, and didn't like the sound on 35 and 120 ohm settings. I think you should stick to the .1ohm output resistance as the 35/120ohm setting is designed for higher impedance headphone 300ohms above. The consensus about impedance matching is the output resistance of the amp should be (at least) 8 time lower than the impedance of the headphone.
  
 To bypass or not to bypass the cap is actually up to you. Some say that bypassing the cap gives you a more transparent sound, more true to the source as there is less processing in the signal. I prefer with the caps on.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> I have that tube and the He400i. I use it with low output R. Great bass, but a bit thin mids in my opinion. I use high gain, my brain believes that the sound is coming out more dynamic, but I guess it is a placebo effect.
> 
> BTW, I think the only tube that gave me a significantly more visceral and deeper bass is the rca 6C8G. Unfortunately it needs a different adaptor. An alternative to the KR in the same family with slightly less bass but better mids is a Sylvania bad boy (3 holes in the black mica from 51/52).
> 
> But I still haven't found a tube that comes close to a pair of Visseaux 6J5 that @HOWIE13 introduced to all of us.


 
  
 Yes, all things considered, 'Bad Boy' is my favourite 6SN7 too.


----------



## nix177

Thanks for all the helpful info. That really give me better idea on my reference point. I really like the 1952 6sn7gt too. 
  
 Funny story. At first I was thinking to get a nice HP and dac/amp combo and be done with because the HP was on sale. In one short month, I got 2 of each: 1952, KR, RCA smoke, 6DJ8 Bugle Boy, 6n6p. Then a Hickok tester. Now, I am on a road with no return. I am extremely satisfied with the result though. I need to look into the Visseaux 6J5.


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> Thanks for all the helpful info. That really give me better idea on my reference point. I really like the 1952 6sn7gt too.
> 
> Funny story. At first I was thinking to get a nice HP and dac/amp combo and be done with because the HP was on sale. In one short month, I got 2 of each: 1952, KR, RCA smoke, 6DJ8 Bugle Boy, 6n6p. Then a Hickok tester. Now, I am on a road with no return. I am extremely satisfied with the result though. I need to look into the Visseaux 6J5.


 
 Looks like you are well and truly hooked!


----------



## nix177

Can someone give me a link for these amazing dual 6J5 adapter?
  
 I was looking on ebay... these tubes are ridiculously expensive now a days. 100 a pop.


----------



## d3rrlck

nix177 said:


> I need to look into the Visseaux 6J5.


 
  
 You can't go wrong with the Visseaux 6J5 but they're expensive nowadays. A cheaper alternative would be Zenith or Brimar 6j5, or if you can still find a national 6j5, these 6j5s are pretty much close sounding tubes. Here's the link to the adapter http://www.ebay.com/itm/201458214762?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## ericr

For those looking for a great tube at a reasonable price I'll recommend the often overlooked but excellent Raytheon 6CG7 (not the later 6FQ7).

The 6CG7 is the 9-pin equivalent of the 6SN7. So you get a 6SN7 type sound at a great price and no adapter is needed. If you are patient on eBay you can buy one foe $25-35. If anyone is interested I can post a picture of the Raytheon construction.

Seeing I've settled on the better (and much more expensive) 6SN7W, I would gladly loan a Raytheon 6CG7 to anyone in the USA for 30 days. All I ask is you post your thoughts on the tube here in this thread and pay the return postage. Send a PM if interested.


----------



## HOWIE13

d3rrlck said:


> You can't go wrong with the Visseaux 6J5 but they're expensive nowadays. A cheaper alternative would be Zenith or Brimar 6j5, or if you can still find a national 6j5, these 6j5s are pretty much close sounding tubes. Here's the link to the adapter http://www.ebay.com/itm/201458214762?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 
  
 Totally agree. The Zeniths in my experience are very similar to Visseaux.
  
 If anyone wants their tubes to lie parallel to the front edge of Ember you may need to also use a socket extender so the adapter clears Ember's front capacitors. 
  
 Alternatively, you could use a dual 6J5 to 6SN7 adapter and place it into a standard 6SN7 to ECC88 adapter to give extra height, and place that into Ember. Viz:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Dual-6J5G-6C5G-VT-94-L63-CV1932-VR67-VT154-TO-6SN7GT-CV181-B65-tube-adapter-/201563928382?hash=item2eee25773e:g:EOQAAOSw95lXFE-B
  
 and:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-6SN7-TO-ECC88-6DJ8-6N11-6922-6N6P-tube-adapter-for-you-amp-/201079159018?hash=item2ed14078ea:g:3~sAAOSw9mFWLioO


----------



## HOWIE13

ericr said:


> For those looking for a great tube at a reasonable price I'll recommend the often overlooked but excellent Raytheon 6CG7 (not the later 6FQ7).
> 
> The 6CG7 is the 9-pin equivalent of the 6SN7. So you get a 6SN7 type sound at a great price and no adapter is needed. If you are patient on eBay you can buy one foe $25-35. If anyone is interested I can post a picture of the Raytheon construction.
> 
> Seeing I've settled on the better (and much more expensive) 6SN7W, I would gladly loan a Raytheon 6CG7 to anyone in the USA for 30 days. All I ask is you post your thoughts on the tube here in this thread and pay the return postage. Send a PM if interested.


 
  
 That 6SN7W is a great tube.


----------



## Tayyab Pirzada

I'm new to tube rolling and have a Project Starlight (not Project Ember). But this seems to be the forum to ask this.
  
 I have an RCA Clear-Top 12au7 (which sounds great to my ears), and a Telefunken 12AT7 on the way.
  
 Can someone describe to me some good tubes? I don't have the patience to go through 127 pages, and I think the first post in this thread is quite outdated now.


----------



## Astral Abyss

tayyab pirzada said:


> I'm new to tube rolling and have a Project Starlight (not Project Ember). But this seems to be the forum to ask this.
> 
> I have an RCA Clear-Top 12au7 (which sounds great to my ears), and a Telefunken 12AT7 on the way.
> 
> Can someone describe to me some good tubes? I don't have the patience to go through 127 pages, and I think the first post in this thread is quite outdated now.


 
  
 I'd recommend getting the 6SN7 adapter that Jeremy sells (it's by far the best made one I've seen).  It'll introduce you to the wonderful world of the 6SN7.  So many inexpensive tubes to try and enjoy.  Also, tube knowledge doesn't really become outdated, only the prices and rarity change, not the quality of the tubes.
  
 If you want to stick with 9-pin tubes, I'd recommend the 6922/7308 or the European equivalent E88CC/E188CC.  Amperex/Phillips is my favorite brand.  Telefunken are too rich for my blood.  The Russian made 6N6P and 6N30P are also excellent.  Smooth sound, slightly rolled off highs, solid bass.  
  
  
 EDIT:  Don't know if the Starlight can handle the 6n6p/6n30p current requirement... I'll have to look.  You can always try the Russian 6n23p otherwise, also excellent.


----------



## HOWIE13

tayyab pirzada said:


> I'm new to tube rolling and have a Project Starlight (not Project Ember). But this seems to be the forum to ask this.
> 
> I have an RCA Clear-Top 12au7 (which sounds great to my ears), and a Telefunken 12AT7 on the way.
> 
> Can someone describe to me some good tubes? I don't have the patience to go through 127 pages, and I think the first post in this thread is quite outdated now.


 
  
 There's no such thing as a good or bad tube, though some have faults or are unreliable or noisy.
  
 There are tubes you will like and those you won't and only your ears can decide.
  
 The advice Astral Abyss has given is very good and so you don't spend a lot of money searching for your ideal tube I would encourage you to at least read some of the pages in the Forum.
 It's easy to skip through the pages which are more general chat and concentrate on the tubes. I used to make brief notes about each tube I read about as I went along, which I found most helpful.
 Tube sonic characteristics are similar in Ember to Starlight.
 Starlight can handle up to 1A heater current  so it does play 6N6P tubes, which are warm and rich sounding, if that's what you are after.
  
 If you posted the cans you use and the sort of sound you are seeking more help may be offered or you could email Jeremy who, I have found, is always very helpful when it comes to choosing tubes-he also has a good selection to sell at reasonable prices too.
  
 Good luck.


----------



## Tayyab Pirzada

howie13 said:


> There's no such thing as a good or bad tube, though some have faults or are unreliable or noisy.
> 
> There are tubes you will like and those you won't and only your ears can decide.
> 
> ...


 
 What's his email?
  
 Im looking for detailed with wide soundstage but smooth mids slightly on the warm side


----------



## HOWIE13

tayyab pirzada said:


> What's his email?
> 
> Im looking for detailed with wide soundstage but smooth mids slightly on the warm side


 
  
 Admin@garage1217.com


----------



## husafreak

Yeah you can get good advice and recommends and even buy tubes and adapters from Jeremy. His prices are competitive and his knowledge of the Starlight makes him a good resource. Two of my favorite tubes are a 6SN7 + adapter and a Russian 6n6p both sourced from him.


----------



## HOWIE13

husafreak said:


> Yeah you can get good advice and recommends and even buy tubes and adapters from Jeremy. His prices are competitive and his knowledge of the Starlight makes him a good resource. Two of my favorite tubes are a 6SN7 + adapter and a Russian 6n6p both sourced from him.


 
  
 The 6N6P is a lovely warm tube. One of my favourites too.


----------



## nix177

tayyab pirzada said:


> I'm new to tube rolling and have a Project Starlight (not Project Ember). But this seems to be the forum to ask this.
> 
> I have an RCA Clear-Top 12au7 (which sounds great to my ears), and a Telefunken 12AT7 on the way.
> 
> Can someone describe to me some good tubes? I don't have the patience to go through 127 pages, and I think the first post in this thread is quite outdated now.


 
 I also agree with Abyss. 6SN7 is a great place to start since they are not as costly and give you the most benefit. I actually have a three Sylvania 6SN7GTA Chrome Dome Black Plate, 1 12SN7GT 3 Holes *(12.6V version of the legend Bad Boy)* and 1 6SN7GT Chome Dome 3 holes T Black Plate; all tested NOS level that I am selling. If you are interested send me a PM.


----------



## nix177

I am happy. Thanks DecentLevi. I can't stop smiling.


----------



## DecentLevi

Congrats @nix177 looks like you're one of the super rare folk who've been lucky enough to try the splendid pairing of the dual Zenith 6J5 on the Ember. It's absolutely no slouch compared to the Visseaux 6J5 - they're both on level playing field with a slightly different flavor.
  
 Are you using the Modi 1 as a DAC? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 And I guess you were lucky enough to receive my Zenith and the adapter both on the same day? And how would you describe the sound you're getting from them?


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> I am happy. Thanks DecentLevi. I can't stop smiling.


 
  
 Well done! You hit the jackpot straight away.
  
 It took some of us many months to find that magic combination.


----------



## DecentLevi

This is largely how I would describe them:
  
 Quote:


tayyab pirzada said:


> Im looking for detailed with wide soundstage but smooth mids slightly on the warm side


 
 + vivid and lush


----------



## nix177

decentlevi said:


> Congrats @nix177 looks like you're one of the super rare folk who've been lucky enough to try the splendid pairing of the dual Zenith 6J5 on the Ember. It's absolutely no slouch compared to the Visseaux 6J5 - they're both on level playing field with a slightly different flavor.
> 
> Are you using the Modi 1 as a DAC?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Lucky me. I actually got the adapter and your tubes the same day. Super excited. Reconfigure the adapter and plug in the tubes and been listening to it the whole night. 
  
 I have not listen to the Visseaux 6J5 yet, but I know 6J5 is my flavor. Sound somewhat like the 1952 Bad Boy and better. Wonderful dynamic, vocals are sweet and pleasing, sound stage is impressive. The HD650 still need to burn in since only 2 days old. It will only get better.
  
 I am using Modi 2 Uber, that will be my next upgrade.


----------



## raab

I'm intrigued by this dual 6J5 setup, I don't yet have my ember but looking at various tube options.
  
 I'm slightly confused by the adapter, looking back I see @DecentLevi recommends this one however I've also seen this one, from the same seller, mentioned in this thread as well.
  
 I'm new to tubes so this is probably a dumb question, why would you use the adapter with 8 pins vs the 9 pin one in the second link?


----------



## Astral Abyss

It raises the tubes up higher so it clears the caps and you can then turn the adapter 90 degrees.  That's how I have mine.  Personal preference.


----------



## husafreak

Just out of curiosity what does one of those dual 6J5 setups cost anyway?


----------



## HOWIE13

raab said:


> I'm intrigued by this dual 6J5 setup, I don't yet have my ember but looking at various tube options.
> 
> I'm slightly confused by the adapter, looking back I see @DecentLevi recommends this one however I've also seen this one, from the same seller, mentioned in this thread as well.
> 
> I'm new to tubes so this is probably a dumb question, why would you use the adapter with 8 pins vs the 9 pin one in the second link?


 
 Hi raab
  
 The two adapters function the same because the 6CG7/6FQ7 tube is also 9 pins, but with characteristics more akin to 6SN7 tubes. Some think of it as a mini sized 6SN7, but not mini sounding.
  
 If you are happy to have the two 6J5 tubes lie perpendicular to the front edge of Ember then you can carefully rotate the adapter loosening the screw. Be careful not to break any wire connections.
 If you want the tubes to lie parallel to the front edge you can use a 9 pin ECC88 socket saver to raise the height of the adapter to avoid the big front capacitors getting in the way using either of the adapters you link to in your post.


----------



## nix177

If you do decide to get the dual adapter, I do recommend to open from the bottom first to loosen the wires from the black plastic enclosure. Mine came tangle up and I wasn't sure which way to turn without breaking the wire. So i loosen the wire from the bottom and turn it 90 degree from there. Good luck!


----------



## nix177

Is there any affordable alternative to the Visseaux 6J5G? I research the thread and found these: Zenith 6P5, NU 6L5G, Fivre 6C5G. Which one of these are on the same playing field as the Visseaux 6J5G?


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> If you do decide to get the dual adapter, I do recommend to open from the bottom first to loosen the wires from the black plastic enclosure. Mine came tangle up and I wasn't sure which way to turn without breaking the wire. So i loosen the wire from the bottom and turn it 90 degree from there. Good luck!


 
  
 Very good advice.That way you can see the wires are not getting overstretched.
  
 I broke my first adapter when I was too vigorous turning the adapter.


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> Is there any affordable alternative to the Visseaux 6J5G? I research the thread and found these: Zenith 6P5, NU 6L5G, Fivre 6C5G. Which one of these are on the same playing field as the Visseaux 6J5G?


 
 I have some 6P5's and they sound identical to 6J5's. As I understand, Zenith didn't make their own tubes but they get good reports just the same and I have found them close to Visseaux.
  
 The NU 6L5G is a lovely, rather warmer tube than the 6J5. Not as dynamic or as clear at the top, but is very musical and easy on the ear.
  
 I don't know the 6C5.


----------



## Astral Abyss

howie13 said:


> I have some 6P5's and they sound identical to 6J5's. As I understand, Zenith didn't make their own tubes but they get good reports just the same and I have found them close to Visseaux.
> 
> The NU 6L5G is a lovely, rather warmer tube than the 6J5. Not as dynamic or as clear at the top, but is very musical and easy on the ear.
> 
> I don't know the 6C5.


 
  
 6C5G is supposed to be similar sounding to the 6J5.  Some of the guys earlier in the thread tried a few and seemed to like them.  I keep meaning to pick some up, but I haven't found a matched pair for a good enough price yet.
  
  


nix177 said:


> Is there any affordable alternative to the Visseaux 6J5G? I research the thread and found these: Zenith 6P5, NU 6L5G, Fivre 6C5G. Which one of these are on the same playing field as the Visseaux 6J5G?


 
  
 I have some National Union 6J5Gs from the 1930s that sound wonderful.  Every bit as good as the Visseaux.  Problem is with the NUs that there's a wide variety of them out there depending on the year they were made and I haven't heard them all to see if they all have the same musical qualities.  I picked up some Tung-Sol 6J5Gs that sound really good, but are lacking a bit on the low end bass (very little presence).  They were NIB though so they may just need to be broken in.


----------



## HOWIE13

One thing to bear in mind when purchasing these old tubes is that occasionally you can get a noisy one. I only purchase from sellers who offer a return period.


----------



## d3rrlck

nix177 said:


> Is there any affordable alternative to the Visseaux 6J5G? I research the thread and found these: Zenith 6P5, NU 6L5G, Fivre 6C5G. Which one of these are on the same playing field as the Visseaux 6J5G?


 
  
 I have the NU 6L5G, Fivre 6C5G, and Viss 6J5G, all in dual tube setup. For me, the Viss 6J5 is the most natural and balance sounding jack of all trades out of the 3, it sounds like this tube is doing everything right no matter what the genre is (at least to my ear). The 6C5G is a predecessor of 6J5. They say they went out of production because of the cost, and was replaced by the 6J5 as they're more cheaper to reproduce. They're nice to look at though with the mesh inside the tube. Compared to the Viss 6J5, the Fivre 6c5g has same lovely mids, this tube goes very low and accentuate the bass extension, and has a slightly rolled off treble. One member commented that 6C5G goes very low that it would start to distort on his headphone (can't remember what it is), but I have no problem using the Fivre with my Hifiman 400i. The 6C5G also feels overall a bit slower (or mellow if that's the correct term?) than Viss 6J5. The NU 6L5G on the other hand is a little bit flat and less engaging in comparison to the Viss 6J5. It's only 20 bucks for matched pair on ebay so it might be worth a try


----------



## raab

Thanks for your replies, I was having difficulty counting the pins on the 6CG7/6FQ7 adapter, I should have just googled it to see it is in fact 9 pins, woops!
  
 Now I just need to find some Visseaux, Zenith 6J5's or Fivre 6C5G, if anyone has any good pairs they're willing to part with let me know


----------



## nix177

howie13 said:


> I have some 6P5's and they sound identical to 6J5's. As I understand, Zenith didn't make their own tubes but they get good reports just the same and I have found them close to Visseaux.
> 
> The NU 6L5G is a lovely, rather warmer tube than the 6J5. Not as dynamic or as clear at the top, but is very musical and easy on the ear.
> 
> I don't know the 6C5.


 
  
 Thanks for the good advice guys. I was lucky enough to get the same pair Levi already auditioned. There are various company that make them for Zenith like RCA and Sylvania so it could vary.


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> Thanks for the good advice guys. I was lucky enough to get the same pair Levi already auditioned. There are various company that make them for Zenith like RCA and Sylvania so it could vary.


 
  
 Another company that didn't make it's own tubes but which look and sound very similar to Zenith is Silvertone.


----------



## HOWIE13

d3rrlck said:


> I have the NU 6L5G, Fivre 6C5G, and Viss 6J5G, all in dual tube setup. For me, the Viss 6J5 is the most natural and balance sounding jack of all trades out of the 3, it sounds like this tube is doing everything right no matter what the genre is (at least to my ear). The 6C5G is a predecessor of 6J5. They say they went out of production because of the cost, and was replaced by the 6J5 as they're more cheaper to reproduce. They're nice to look at though with the mesh inside the tube. Compared to the Viss 6J5, the Fivre 6c5g has same lovely mids, this tube goes very low and accentuate the bass extension, and has a slightly rolled off treble. One member commented that 6C5G goes very low that it would start to distort on his headphone (can't remember what it is), but I have no problem using the Fivre with my Hifiman 400i. The 6C5G also feels overall a bit slower (or mellow if that's the correct term?) than Viss 6J5. The NU 6L5G on the other hand is a little bit flat and less engaging in comparison to the Viss 6J5. It's only 20 bucks for matched pair on ebay so it might be worth a try


 
  
 Of course! I thought I didn't know the 6C5G's but when you mentioned the mesh I remembered I have some Hytrons.
  
 They are very warm, lush with deep bass, but pretty dull on top. Good for sleepy late night Jazz or church organ using a lot of bass pedal. Mine were prone to hum.


----------



## DecentLevi

husafreak said:


> Just out of curiosity what does one of those dual 6J5 setups cost anyway?


 
 A pair of Visseaux 6J5's were around $120 last year, now it's around $200 / pair, likely due to their universal praise and scarcity... I'm still listening to mine as part of the best ever tube setup on my new amp. I got my pair of Zenith 6J5's for around $80 and sacrificed them for only $45 to the lucky buyer above. I have just checked and there are some top-notch deals for Zenith 6J5's on eBay right now, check it here.  The top result from GreenGirl613 is a seller I have bought from, and they're really nice about returns.
  
 Plus about $30 for the adapter with shipping


----------



## raab

I took a gamble on these ones, managed to win them @ 75USD, no idea if they'll be any good but we'll see 
  
 I did see greengirl613's but I'm not clued up on measurements, is 9.9mA and 8.5mA considered a close match?


----------



## nix177

I can't thank you enough Levi.


----------



## nix177

raab said:


> I took a gamble on these ones, managed to win them @ 75USD, no idea if they'll be any good but we'll see
> 
> I did see greengirl613's but I'm not clued up on measurements, is 9.9mA and 8.5mA considered a close match?


 
 Funny story, I was bidding on these too. We should let each other know here when we are bidding on ebay so we don't outbid each other.


----------



## DecentLevi

raab said:


> I took a gamble on these ones, managed to win them @ 75USD, no idea if they'll be any good but we'll see
> 
> I did see greengirl613's but I'm not clued up on measurements, is 9.9mA and 8.5mA considered a close match?


 
 Ya 9.9 and 8.5 are a close match. I think the min. good rating is somewhere near 7.0, but I'm sure Howie knows for sure. Let us know what you think, and hold onto them for future amps


----------



## raab

nix177 said:


> Funny story, I was bidding on these too. We should let each other know here when we are bidding on ebay so we don't outbid each other.


 
  
 Haha, classic , noted for future
  
 It's my first time using ebay in that way as well, normally previous auctions have all been buy now ones
  


decentlevi said:


> Ya 9.9 and 8.5 are a close match. I think the min. good rating is somewhere near 7.0, but I'm sure Howie knows for sure. Let us know what you think, and hold onto them for future amps


 
  
 Good to know, I'm tempted to get those ones from greengirl too.
  
 Will do, I don't even have my ember yet and I'm already stocking up on tubes before I've even listened to it in stock form. This is my first tube amp as well so quite looking forward to it and have enjoyed reading this thread end to end as well.


----------



## nix177

I see this for a pair of silverstone. 1400 & 1200 micromhos. 910 micromhos is the minimum acceptacble value for each triode section on a Hickok 539B. Would that consider matched? and are they good?


----------



## DecentLevi

I think you answered your own question these are well within tolerance level. I'm not sure which SIlvertones you're referring to, but I also saw a very great looking pair of Philco 6J5 'coke bottle' tubes


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> A pair of Visseaux 6J5's were around $120 last year, now it's around $200 / pair, likely due to their universal praise and scarcity... I'm still listening to mine as part of the best ever tube setup on my new amp. I got my pair of Zenith 6J5's for around $80 and sacrificed them for only $45 to the lucky buyer above. I have just checked and there are some top-notch deals for Zenith 6J5's on eBay right now, check it here.  The top result from GreenGirl613 is a seller I have bought from, and they're really nice about returns.
> 
> Plus about $30 for the adapter with shipping


 
 Thoroughly endorse all you say. Zenith are virtually sonically identical to Visseaux and GreenGirl is a good seller.
  
 I think you and I are largely to blame for the price rise of the Visseaux


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Ya 9.9 and 8.5 are a close match. I think the min. good rating is somewhere near 7.0, but I'm sure Howie knows for sure. Let us know what you think, and hold onto them for future amps


 
  
 At 250V plate voltage and -8V  grid voltage, which I assume is how they were measured, the characteristic plate current is 9mA -so those are very good tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> I see this for a pair of silverstone. 1400 & 1200 micromhos. 910 micromhos is the minimum acceptacble value for each triode section on a Hickok 539B. Would that consider matched? and are they good?


 
 If you are referring to 6J5 tubes, assuming they were measured at 250V plate voltage and -8V grid voltage, those are fairly mediocre transductance readings. The characteristic value is 2600 for 6J5 tubes. I wouldn't buy any tube less than 60% of that value.


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> I see this for a pair of silverstone. 1400 & 1200 micromhos. 910 micromhos is the minimum acceptacble value for each triode section on a Hickok 539B. Would that consider matched? and are they good?


 
  
 On the other hand maybe you are referring to a pair of 6P5's. In that case the characteristic transductance would be 1450, so those could potentially be relatively long lasting.


----------



## amigastar

What are the first symptoms of a Tube degrading through usage (or playtime)?


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> What are the first symptoms of a Tube degrading through usage (or playtime)?


 
  
 I've fortunately only had a couple die on me. They both started being microphonic and hissing for a few days, then the volume started to fall off over another couple of days. When I tested them they were both very low.
  
 With some tubes I believe the glow changes colour, and with mine the heater colour was more like a weak red at the end rather than orange.


----------



## amigastar

howie13 said:


> I've fortunately only had a couple die on me. They both started being microphonic and hissing for a few days, then the volume started to fall off over another couple of days. When I tested them they were both very low.
> 
> With some tubes I believe the glow changes colour, and with mine the heater colour was more like a weak red at the end rather than orange.


 
 Good to know, thanks.
 I'm asking because i've noticed volume going lower, will replace my Tube in the next days to see if there's a difference.


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> Good to know, thanks.
> I'm asking because i've noticed volume going lower, will replace my Tube in the next days to see if there's a difference.


 
  
 Yes I forgot to say earlier that another advantage of having a tester is verifying a tube is failing- but it's rare. Sounds like you may indeed need a new tube. That's probably a better option than having a problem with other parts of the system causing volume changes.


----------



## husafreak

decentlevi said:


> A pair of Visseaux 6J5's were around $120 last year, now it's around $200 / pair, likely due to their universal praise and scarcity... I'm still listening to mine as part of the best ever tube setup on my new amp. I got my pair of Zenith 6J5's for around $80 and sacrificed them for only $45 to the lucky buyer above. I have just checked and there are some top-notch deals for Zenith 6J5's on eBay right now, check it here.  The top result from GreenGirl613 is a seller I have bought from, and they're really nice about returns.
> 
> Plus about $30 for the adapter with shipping


 
 Thanks brother, I went ahead and purchased the tubes you linked here. The next thing I need is the adapter and I actually prefer the "tandem" arrangement with one tube in front of the other when viewed from the front of the amp, so with the caps sticking up on either side. Which adapter do I need for that arrangement?


----------



## husafreak

nix177 said:


> I am happy. Thanks DecentLevi. I can't stop smiling.


 
 Like this!


----------



## Tayyab Pirzada

husafreak said:


> Like this!


 
 what are the tubes here and the adapter called? and how is the sound signature?


----------



## raab

The tubes are the Zenith 6J5G's and the adapter is this one


----------



## DecentLevi

tayyab pirzada said:


> what are the tubes here and the adapter called? and how is the sound signature?


 
 Well here was my in depth two part comparison of the Zenith vs. Visseuax from March on this same thread
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/702826/project-ember-tube-rolling/2145#post_12393569
  


husafreak said:


> Thanks brother, I went ahead and purchased the tubes you linked here. The next thing I need is the adapter and I actually prefer the "tandem" arrangement with one tube in front of the other when viewed from the front of the amp, so with the caps sticking up on either side. Which adapter do I need for that arrangement?


 
 Either of the two dual 6J5 adapters can go either way, you just have to loosen the screw in the middle of the adapter to rotate it, (carefully without breaking wires)


----------



## husafreak

OK thanks I got the one with the one piece acrylic it looks nicer to me and I'm going to have to rotate either one. This should be fun! I love that you compared it to the 6SN7 in your review as that is my favorite tube so far.


----------



## nix177

husafreak said:


> OK thanks I got the one with the one piece acrylic it looks nicer to me and I'm going to have to rotate either one. This should be fun! I love that you compared it to the 6SN7 in your review as that is my favorite tube so far.


 
 i believe both adapter look the same.


----------



## nix177

howie13 said:


> On the other hand maybe you are referring to a pair of 6P5's. In that case the characteristic transductance would be 1450, so those could potentially be relatively long lasting.


 
 Yes, you are correct. I am actually referring to the 6P5s. Would you say they have more of noise "humm" issue with them?


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> Yes, you are correct. I am actually referring to the 6P5s. Would you say they have more of noise "humm" issue with them?


 
  
 They didn't hum but were a bit microphonic. That could just be my particular tubes of course. They were silent when playing, just a bit of microphonic noise when I touched the amp to make adjustments to settings..


----------



## HOWIE13

husafreak said:


> Like this!


 
  
 No image visible on my computer unfortunately.


----------



## husafreak

See post 2517 I got the second one, it shows a single piece of acrylic with a hole for the screw in its center.


----------



## HOWIE13

husafreak said:


> See post 2517 I got the second one, it shows a single piece of acrylic with a hole for the screw in its center.


 
  
 OK, thanks. Are those two adapters not identical?


----------



## nix177

howie13 said:


> OK, but are those two adapters not identical?




They are the same. Just the pictures are taken from different angle and the 2nd one look more appealing.


----------



## husafreak

Weird, when I look at them one has a hole for the screw on top and the other doesn't, whatever.


----------



## nix177

husafreak said:


> Weird, when I look at them one has a hole for the screw on top and the other doesn't, whatever.


 
 Oh wow, you are right. I didn't even notice the difference. Indeed one has an open for screw from the top and the other doesn't. I suggest get the one with the opening on top since it will be easier to adjust.


----------



## husafreak

Well, we will see what I actually get...


----------



## Tayyab Pirzada

Ok I didn't really believe that different tubes can do much, and I was using a standard RCA Clear-Top 12AU7 tube for my Project Starlight amp, but I just tried the Telefunken 12AT7 (which I got for cheap on ebay) and WOW. The bass and detailing is probably twice as good as it was before. My only qualm with the earbuds I was using (VE Zen 2.0 high impedence buds) was that they kind of lacked in sub-bass and detailing. This has totally solved the problem. I'm in awe at how good the Telefunken 12AT7 is.


----------



## HOWIE13

tayyab pirzada said:


> Ok I didn't really believe that different tubes can do much, and I was using a standard RCA Clear-Top 12AU7 tube for my Project Starlight amp, but I just tried the Telefunken 12AT7 (which I got for cheap on ebay) and WOW. The bass and detailing is probably twice as good as it was before. My only qualm with the earbuds I was using (VE Zen 2.0 high impedence buds) was that they kind of lacked in sub-bass and detailing. This has totally solved the problem. I'm in awe at how good the Telefunken 12AT7 is.


 
  
 Welcome to the world of tube rolling! The fun is just beginning.


----------



## Tayyab Pirzada

What should I do next to get a seriously notable upgrade in detailing, soundstage, and possibly bass (moreso the first two though)?


----------



## HOWIE13

husafreak said:


> Well, we will see what I actually get...


 
  
 You should be okay, whatever gets sent. I have one of the first type that doesn't appear to have a hole in the centre in the picture (very well spotted) and it does have the hole.
  
 If you contact MrsX and let her know the picture is misleading  you may get a free adapter


----------



## HOWIE13

tayyab pirzada said:


> What should I do next to get a seriously notable upgrade in detailing, soundstage, and possibly bass (moreso the first two though)?


 
  
 You're already hooked
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 I would look for a reasonably priced ECC88 Bugle Boy or Mullard (original 50- '60's version, rather than modern iterations of which I have no experience). E88CC Tesla and Tungsram can be good too.
  
 GE 6DJ8  'dark glass' are warmer, very nice tube and then there's the Russian 6N23P's and some nice 6N27P's which might suit.
  
 Everyone has their own take on these and there are very many more.
  
 You could even get a 6SN7 to ECC88 adapter and try Octals. Nice sound-stages and bass, though maybe not as much detail as some of the 6DJ8 9 pin types. If you don't have the Starlight version with the big hole above the socket you would need a 9 pin noval socket saver as well as the 6SN7 to ECC88 adapter to be able to connect the adapter to the socket.
  
 You can even roll Starlight's op-amps -maybe next year!


----------



## Tayyab Pirzada

howie13 said:


> You're already hooked
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 so many choices...which one is the best among the ones you listed, and in terms of what (i.e. soundstage, detailing, etc.)?
  
 im hoping for seriously notable improvement and not diminishing returns here (improvement over the RCA cleartop or the Telefunken 12AT7)


----------



## HOWIE13

tayyab pirzada said:


> so many choices...which one is the best among the ones you listed, and in terms of what (i.e. soundstage, detailing, etc.)?
> 
> im hoping for seriously notable improvement and not diminishing returns here (improvement over the RCA cleartop or the Telefunken 12AT7)


 
  
 Impossible to say which is best for you. Any of those first four I mentioned might suit.
  
 'Clear top' to my ears, is a pleasant, quite warm tube but not dynamic enough for me, personally.


----------



## HOWIE13

This is the sort of tube but I wouldn't purchase this particular one as it's not tested and the seller refuses returns.:
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Amperex-ECC88-6DJ8-Bugle-Boy-Amplifier-Vacuum-Tube-Made-In-Holland-/381479463207?hash=item58d1f2a927:gxsAAOSwv-NWUeiB


----------



## Tayyab Pirzada

Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 vs. Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX7...what are the differences?


----------



## HOWIE13

tayyab pirzada said:


> Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 vs. Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX7...what are the differences?


 
 One main difference is the gain is much higher with the 12AX7 but, although that may sound attractive, it can add noise to your system and reduce the use of your volume control.
 I don't know the Amperex 12AX7 but, in general terms, 12AX7 tubes are usually a bit smoother in the treble, not extending quite as far, though that may not be initially apparent in A/B comparisons because they are louder for the same volume setting.


----------



## DavidA

tayyab pirzada said:


> Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 vs. Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX7...what are the differences?


 
 As @HOWIE13 noted the gain is one thing, the other is I've tried many of the 6922/6jd8 tubes from my Lyr2 and found that I had a lot of channel imbalance issue with them, never had channel imbalance issues with 12XXX or 6sn7 series.
  
 Another thing that will make a difference is the headphone that you are trying to drive, if hard to drive like HE-560 then the 12AX7 might actually be better but its comes down to sound signature preference.


----------



## nix177

tayyab pirzada said:


> What should I do next to get a seriously notable upgrade in detailing, soundstage, and possibly bass (moreso the first two though)?


 
 Get the beautiful 6SN7 to 9 pin adapter from Jermey http://www.garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_012.htm
  
 This is probably the most beautiful crafted adapter and worth every penny. There are so many good 6SN7 tubes with good detail, soundstage, and good bass without needing to spend a lot of money. I think it is a good place to start with a good improvement and vest selections to achieve what you want. I do prefer them over the 9 pins.


----------



## Tayyab Pirzada

nix177 said:


> Get the beautiful 6SN7 to 9 pin adapter from Jermey http://www.garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_012.htm
> 
> This is probably the most beautiful crafted adapter and worth every penny. There are so many good 6SN7 tubes with good detail, soundstage, and good bass without needing to spend a lot of money. I think it is a good place to start with a good improvement and vest selections to achieve what you want. I do prefer them over the 9 pins.




Whats an example of a good 6sn7 tube?


----------



## Tayyab Pirzada

So is Bugle Boy 12ax7 better than 6dj8 or are they basically the same but different gain?


----------



## CZ4A

tayyab pirzada said:


> Whats an example of a good 6sn7 tube?




Plenty of reading material here:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread


----------



## HOWIE13

tayyab pirzada said:


> So is Bugle Boy 12ax7 better than 6dj8 or are they basically the same but different gain?


 
  
 See posts #2573 and #2574 above.


----------



## nix177

tayyab pirzada said:


> Whats an example of a good 6sn7 tube?


 
  
 I found this thread when I first trying out 6SN7s; see post #5194: http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/5190
  
 These are the more affordable ones with good results. There are also the more expensive ones that are highly sort after like Sylvania 6SN7W, Sylvania 6SN7GT Badboy 3 Rivet Holes (my favorite) , Ken Rad VT231 JAN-CKR-6SN7GT (good bass detail), RCA VT231 Smoke Glass: http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 I am letting go a few of my backups if you are interested: http://www.head-fi.org/t/818709/fs-various-6sn7-12sn7-12awt7wc-tubes-garage-1217-amp-test-new
  
 and a Ken-Rad VT-231 New in Box: http://www.head-fi.org/t/818917/fs-ken-rad-vt-231-jan-ckr-6sn7gt-tube-new-in-box


----------



## raab

howie13 said:


> You should be okay, whatever gets sent. I have one of the first type that doesn't appear to have a hole in the centre in the picture (very well spotted) and it does have the hole.
> 
> If you contact MrsX and let her know the picture is misleading  you may get a free adapter


 
 There's two separate adapters, one has the screw hole on top whereas the other doesn't
  
 There's the Dual 6J5G 6C5G VT-94 CV1932 L63 VR67 TO 6CG7 6FQ7 (no screw hole on top) and Dual 6J5G 6C5G VT-94 CV1932 L63 VR67 TO ECC88 6922 (screw hole on top)
  
 They're both 9 pin so not sure why they make two variations of the same thing really? So I don't think it matters which one you get, reading earlier someone said it was easier to adjust using the bottom screw anyway


----------



## HOWIE13

raab said:


> There's two separate adapters, one has the screw hole on top whereas the other doesn't
> 
> There's the Dual 6J5G 6C5G VT-94 CV1932 L63 VR67 TO 6CG7 6FQ7 (no screw hole on top) and Dual 6J5G 6C5G VT-94 CV1932 L63 VR67 TO ECC88 6922 (screw hole on top)
> 
> They're both 9 pin so not sure why they make two variations of the same thing really? So I don't think it matters which one you get, reading earlier someone said it was easier to adjust using the bottom screw anyway


 
 The photo above showing my screwdriver going through a hole in the top is the first adapter you quote. If you look carefully you can see the letters 6CG7 printed on the label on the adapter in the photo. I think either it's their Ebay photo that's wrong or maybe they have changed their adapter, but don't know why they would.
  
 You should claim a free adapter.


----------



## raab

Ah right, I'm with you now


----------



## HOWIE13

raab said:


> Ah right, I'm with you now


 
  
 I like the Tung-Sol 'mouse ears' for a good value 6SN7 and Tung-Sol 6SN7TB.
  
 Feliks Audio use the newer Russian made version of the latter as their stock tube in their much praised Elise amplifier and the tube sounds good.


----------



## Astral Abyss

howie13 said:


> I like the Tung-Sol 'mouse ears' for a good value 6SN7 and Tung-Sol 6SN7TB.
> 
> Feliks Audio use the newer Russian made version of the latter as their stock tube in their much praised Elise amplifier and the tube sounds good.


 
  
 I'm listening to a mouse ear Tung Sol (1950 black plate) in my Ember 2 right now.  It's actually my favorite type a tube... a non-hyped, overlooked tube that sounds amazing and costs very little.


----------



## HOWIE13

astral abyss said:


> I'm listening to a mouse ear Tung Sol (1950 black plate) in my Ember 2 right now.  It's actually my favorite type a tube... a non-hyped, overlooked tube that sounds amazing and costs very little.


 
  
 I've no idea what those big ears do but they make for a good laugh when you have friends round.


----------



## HOWIE13

raab said:


> Ah right, I'm with you now


 
  





 Yes, the eBAY picture sure is misleading.


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> I found this thread when I first trying out 6SN7s; see post #5194: http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/5190
> 
> These are the more affordable ones with good results. There are also the more expensive ones that are highly sort after like Sylvania 6SN7W, Sylvania 6SN7GT Badboy 3 Rivet Holes (my favorite) , Ken Rad VT231 JAN-CKR-6SN7GT (good bass detail), RCA VT231 Smoke Glass: http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
> 
> ...


 
  
 I don't know your Sylvania 6SN7GTA but I have the GE version and it's a very good, underrated  tube.


----------



## nix177

howie13 said:


> I don't know your Sylvania 6SN7GTA but I have the GE version and it's a very good, underrated  tube.


 
 Levi rated this tube below. I find it very accurate. Really good energy. An overall fantastic tube. Usually they are $20 ish on ebay. I am selling them $15 each.
  
Sylvania     6SN7 GTA
Clarity: 8.5/10. THD: 7/10. Bass: full, pleasing with very slight sub-bass roll off. 'Priceless' energy 9.5/10. Great timbre. Overall: 8/10 wonderful


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> Levi rated this tube below. I find it very accurate. Really good energy. An overall fantastic tube. Usually they are $20 ish on ebay. I am selling them $15 each.
> 
> Sylvania     6SN7 GTA
> Clarity: 8.5/10. THD: 7/10. Bass: full, pleasing with very slight sub-bass roll off. 'Priceless' energy 9.5/10. Great timbre. Overall: 8/10 wonderful


 
  
 It sounds like it's very similar to the GE. Punchy and clear with good bass and extended, non fatiguing treble, neutral mids.
 Come to think of it DL may have actually recommended the GE to me.


----------



## HOWIE13

OOPS-WRONG THREAD!


----------



## JoeDoe

New ember owner checking in. It's a v1 in name but v2 under the hood. I've got Bugle Boys, RCAs, and a NOS KenRad VT. I'm new to the 6sn7 and you can color me impressed. Everything just sounds bigger. Good stuff!


----------



## HOWIE13

joedoe said:


> New ember owner checking in. It's a v1 in name but v2 under the hood. I've got Bugle Boys, RCAs, and a NOS KenRad VT. I'm new to the 6sn7 and you can color me impressed. Everything just sounds bigger. Good stuff!


 
  
 Welcome!
  
 I would imagine it's whats printed on the board that matters. I think the difference is v2 has the supercharger to let you roll up to 1A heater current tubes.
  
 With those tubes you have you are already well ahead in the game, and the sound will get even bigger with the bigger tubes.


----------



## JoeDoe

howie13 said:


> Welcome!
> 
> I would imagine it's whats printed on the board that matters. I think the difference is v2 has the supercharger to let you roll up to 1A heater current tubes.
> 
> With those tubes you have you are already well ahead in the game, and the sound will get even bigger with the bigger tubes.




Mine has the supercharger as well as a few other improvements over the v1.

What DACs are you guys running into the ember? Thinking about getting a mojo to use as a DAC...


----------



## HOWIE13

joedoe said:


> Mine has the supercharger as well as a few other improvements over the v1.
> 
> What DACs are you guys running into the ember? Thinking about getting a mojo to use as a DAC...


 
  
  
 I use an M-DAC and a Muse NOS DAC.
  
 I recently purchased a Mojo and I'm delighted with it. It pairs fine with Ember. I do find the default line-out level high at 3.0V so I lower it once it's switched on before powering on Ember.
 Ember seems to handle 3V alright, but it means with 6DJ8 tubes I'm often below the 9 o'clock level on the vol pot.
 I think Chord were unhelpful setting the default line-out voltage to an unconventionally high level.
 Other than that it's a great piece of kit.


----------



## JoeDoe

howie13 said:


> I use an M-DAC and a Muse NOS DAC.
> 
> I recently purchased a Mojo and I'm delighted with it. It pairs fine with Ember. I do find the default line-out level high at 3.0V so I lower it once it's switched on before powering on Ember.
> Ember seems to handle 3V alright, but it means with 6DJ8 tubes I'm often below the 9 o'clock level on the vol pot.
> ...




If I'm not mistaken, can't you change the LO level on the mojo to half that via some sort of button combination?


----------



## HOWIE13

joedoe said:


> If I'm not mistaken, can't you change the LO level on the mojo to half that via some sort of button combination?


 
  
 Sure-  you just lower the volume by pressing the VOL - button until the colours become dark blue, then you are at 2V.
  
 If you permanently want to use Mojo as a DAC for Ember it's no problem as Mojo remembers the 2V setting when you switch on again.
  
 I don't know of any shortcut way to produce anything other than 3V output.


----------



## JoeDoe

howie13 said:


> Sure-  you just lower the volume by pressing the VOL - button until the colours become dark blue, then you are at 2V.
> 
> If you permanently want to use Mojo as a DAC for Ember it's no problem as Mojo remembers the 2V setting when you switch on again.
> 
> I don't know of any shortcut way to produce anything other than 3V output.




Does the 2V setting work better than the 3v for the embassy l ember?


----------



## HOWIE13

joedoe said:


> Does the 2V setting work better than the 3v for the embassy l ember?


 
 Sorry Joe could you clarify what you mean by 'embassy l' ?


----------



## JoeDoe

howie13 said:


> Sorry Joe could you clarify what you mean by 'embassy I' ?




Typo. Does the 2v work better than the 3v out put setting?


----------



## HOWIE13

joedoe said:


> Typo. Does the 2v work better than the 3v out put setting?


 
  
 They are both fine to my ears. I hear no distortion with 3V input- I suppose you could check with Jeremy if it's above Ember's capability or could do damage long term, but I would doubt it.
  
 Sound wise there is no difference. I actually had a good listen, compensating for the volume differences with the vol pot. The only problem with 3V is the music is too loud for me to always get the vol pot above 9 o'clock and occasionally below this level there can be channel imbalance. However, it's easy to lower the input level with the VOL - button to allow Ember's vol pot to be above 9.o'clock.
  
 Mojo synergises perfectly with Ember. I think I prefer it to the M-DAC. Nice headphone amp too- clear and dynamic.


----------



## nix177

Does anyone has a tube tester or know someone who has in Orange County, California? I had one but sold it recently.


----------



## ericr

joedoe said:


> ...
> What DACs are you guys running into the ember? Thinking about getting a mojo to use as a DAC...




There is a nice synergy between the Garage 1217 amps and the R-2R DAC line-up from MHDT Labs. A year or so ago @soundsgoodtom let me listen to his MHDT DAC. Shortly thereafter I bought one for myself. Now I own 3 of them (and 2 Embers)!


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> Does anyone has a tube tester or know someone who has in Orange County, California? I had one but sold it recently.


 
  
 I use this:
  
 http://www.britishaudiostore.com/tube-imp-mini-tube-tester/
  
  
 It tests 6DJ8, 12AU7/AT7/AX7 and 6SN7 tubes, amongst others, but because it's max anode voltage  testing level is 200V and the max cathode current it can handle is about 12mA you often need to use the tube's characteristic graphs to interpret the results. They are readily found on the web.
  
 It's easy to use and seems accurate with reproducible results.


----------



## HOWIE13

ericr said:


> There is a nice synergy between the Garage 1217 amps and the R-2R DAC line-up from MHDT Labs. A year or so ago @soundsgoodtom let me listen to his MHDT DAC. Shortly thereafter I bought one for myself. Now I own 3 of them (and 2 Embers)!


 
  
  
 Absolutely agree. Like you I find great synergy with Ember and  R-2R NOS DAC's. I have a couple of quite cheap ones and they sound great. Generally they are getting expensive now though.


----------



## husafreak

These are the tubes I got on Ebay. Zenith 6J5 G. One has the spec 2450@8.5 the other 2795@9.9. I don't have my adapter yet but when I do listen to these tubes I wonder how tube spec matching affects the sound. Or even if it does. How do you know if tubes are well matched or not? Can you hear it? I don't understand the circuitry so I don't have any idea really. But they look nice and hopefully they will sound nice as well!


----------



## DecentLevi

I'd say go for it. Seems they're matched at least 80% and they appear pristine to me


----------



## HOWIE13

husafreak said:


> These are the tubes I got on Ebay. Zenith 6J5 G. One has the spec 2450@8.5 the other 2795@9.9. I don't have my adapter yet but when I do listen to these tubes I wonder how tube spec matching affects the sound. Or even if it does. How do you know if tubes are well matched or not? Can you hear it? I don't understand the circuitry so I don't have any idea really. But they look nice and hopefully they will sound nice as well!


 
  
 Yep- they are pretty well matched and I'd be happy with them, Matching matters for channel balance and the important figures are amplification factor (which few testers measure) and cathode current emission which here, as DL says, is over 80% matched. It's not an exact science anyway. My experience is I can't hear channel imbalance at that level of matching and I'm ultra sensitive to channel imbalance.
  
 The other figures (2450 and 2795) are the transductance-those are very good. They give you an indication as to how long the tubes should last, rather than how the tube will sound.
  
 Every tube type has different typical characteristics.


----------



## husafreak

Thanks, I will listen for channel imbalance when I get them running.


----------



## HOWIE13

husafreak said:


> Thanks, I will listen for channel imbalance when I get them running.


 
  
 Better not to think about it too much. It's easy to hear minor channel imbalance if you are trying hard to listen for it. Those tubes are well enough balanced for emission for any serious channel imbalance to be due to other causes, inside or outside the tube.


----------



## JoeDoe

Any Ember owners lay ears on an Icon Audio HP8 tube amp? I know it's a long shot, but I figured I'd ask!


----------



## DavidA

joedoe said:


> Any Ember owners lay ears on an Icon Audio HP8 tube amp? I know it's a long shot, but I figured I'd ask!


 
 I heard one a while ago, didn't spend much time with it since I was more interested in other amps that a friend had.  Only thing that stood out was with a HD-650 it was killer, I liked the HD-650 better than a HD-800/S with the HP8 amp.  I don't remember what tubes were installed so not much help there.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hi guys, just checking in to see if anybody has gotten their Zenith 6J5's yet?


----------



## nix177

decentlevi said:


> Hi guys, just checking in to see if anybody has gotten their Zenith 6J5's yet?


 
 Hey Levi, I am actually waiting for a pair of Visseaux coming next week or so. Enjoying the 6J5s during the mean time. I do want to ask; I did start to notice some static noise coming from the 6J5s. It is not very intrusive but I can hear it when music is not loud enough. I did not notice this when I was using the 6sn7s before. Would the faraday cage be the best way to get rid of it? I did try to wrap foils around it but it didn't get rid of it.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello, I definitely haven't heard any sort of static from that pair. Can you describe the sound you heard, such as steady or pulsating, and about which frequency (example approx. 80hz or 2khz)


----------



## husafreak

Yeah I got the ones pictured and the adapter in time to spend about two blissful hours with it before leaving home for work. Listened to a new (to me) Jorma Kaukonen bluegrass CD. I thought it sounded terrific but was biting my tongue until I can make a direct comparison with something familiar. But it seemed very lively, lots of gain, great soundstage, detailed. No micro phonics when tapping the bottles. Some noise turning the vol pot up from off but none when steady which is normal for caps disabled anyway. It also looks cool as all get out! I was able to easily rotate the tubes 90 degrees which was necessary to clear the caps with the adapter I got, which looks well made to me. Great fun and thanks for your help in making good choices.


----------



## nix177

decentlevi said:


> Hello, I definitely haven't heard any sort of static from that pair. Can you describe the sound you heard, such as steady or pulsating, and about which frequency (example approx. 80hz or 2khz)


 
 It is an electric current sound. It is steady at a very low freq. It is there once the red light goes off from the ember. You can feel it right off the bat. It is only noticeable when music is not playing. Funny thing is if I touch one of the thumb screws, it will go away. Another thing is if I tap on the tube, I can hear sound from the headphone like if you are taping on a microphone.


----------



## DecentLevi

So then the tubes are somewhat microphonic, in which it acts as a bit of a microphone, and is generally only heard when music is not playing. Also you have a small hum from these tubes, which are caused either by the design / condition of the tube internals, or the socket connection. Some things you could try are cleaning the electrical pins on the tubes and re-inserting it firmly, or plugging your Ember directly into a grounded wall outlet (3 prong)


----------



## husafreak

Maybe look back in th thread for pics posted of guys DIY Farraday cages? Sounds like a grounding problem.


----------



## Astral Abyss

Ok, allow me to brag for a minute... This tube I just picked up for peanuts on ebay that arrived today is truly a treasure.  A simple looking 12AT7/ECC81.  Mediocre looking stats.  Closer inspection shows it's a French made Philips tube in the classic 60s era with an O getter.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/232072124676
  
 Sounds great, no noise.  Pretty well balanced.  I'm in love.  Beautiful hard hitting bass, sweet mids, and crystal clear highs.  Listening to it right now on my Setup 1 with my Grado GH1.  I'm gonna be here a while.
  
 It doesn't get much better than the Ember for tube rolling.


----------



## ebiscaia

Does anybody know if there is a compatible subminiature tube?

Thanks in advance


----------



## nix177

decentlevi said:


> So then the tubes are somewhat microphonic, in which it acts as a bit of a microphone, and is generally only heard when music is not playing. Also you have a small hum from these tubes, which are caused either by the design / condition of the tube internals, or the socket connection. Some things you could try are cleaning the electrical pins on the tubes and re-inserting it firmly, or plugging your Ember directly into a grounded wall outlet (3 prong)


 
 I tried all the methods you mentioned but it is still happening. It is making the "iiiiinnnnnnggggggg" sound. I tried a different pair of 6j5s that are not microphonic but I can still hear the "iiiinnnnnnggggg" sound when music is not playing. I don't hear this when I was using the 6sn7s with 6sn7 adapter. Can someone shard some light on this? I don't know if it is a grounding issue OR / if it is a problem with the adapter OR /if it is known problem for using 6j5 tubes.  I just know if I press down on the back left thumb screw or touch one of the line out terminal the sound will go away significantly.


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> I tried all the methods you mentioned but it is still happening. It is making the "iiiiinnnnnnggggggg" sound. I tried a different pair of 6j5s that are not microphonic but I can still hear the "iiiinnnnnnggggg" sound when music is not playing. I don't hear this when I was using the 6sn7s with 6sn7 adapter. Can someone shard some light on this? I don't know if it is a grounding issue OR / if it is a problem with the adapter OR /if it is known problem for using 6j5 tubes.  I just know if I press down on the back left thumb screw or touch one of the line out terminal the sound will go away significantly.


 
  
 It's an earth hum. When you touch the RCA line out your body is providing an earth and that's why the hum goes.
 It's not a common problem with 6J5 tubes as far as I'm aware. I get rid of hum by connecting an earth wire from the RCA line out terminal to an earth point on a nearby redundant equaliser. An earthed Faraday cage works too.
 You could check switching off other equipment in your mains circuit first to see if the hum goes away. It's a pain but very rewarding when you get rid of it.


----------



## nix177

howie13 said:


> It's an earth hum. When you touch the RCA line out your body is providing an earth and that's why the hum goes.
> It's not a common problem with 6J5 tubes as far as I'm aware. I get rid of hum by connecting an earth wire from the RCA line out terminal to an earth point on a nearby redundant equaliser. An earthed Faraday cage works too.
> You could check switching off other equipment in your mains circuit first to see if the hum goes away. It's a pain but very rewarding when you get rid of it.


 
 Simple english please. Lol. Where can I buy theearth wire? and what is a nearby redundant equalizer? I saw pictures of those Faraday cage on the older posts but how do you earthed the Faraday cage? Some instruction and pictures would help. 
  
 I actually turn off all equipment that are using the same outlet and it is still there. It is not the dac or all the apple chargers I have near by. Funny thing is, this earth hum will go away when i go back to 6sn7 setup.


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> Simple english please. Lol. Where can I buy theearth wire? and what is a nearby redundant equalizer? I saw pictures of those Faraday cage on the older posts but how do you earthed the Faraday cage? Some instruction and pictures would help.
> 
> I actually turn off all equipment that are using the same outlet and it is still there. It is not the dac or all the apple chargers I have near by. Funny thing is, this earth hum will go away when i go back to 6sn7 setup.


 
  
  
 An earth wire is a wire that connects a piece of equipment to earth. Here's an explanatory link:
  
 http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/add_aqa/electricity/householdelecrev5.shtml.
  
 To earth a Faraday cage you attach the earth wire from the Farady cage to an earth point. The Faraday cage might work without being earthed, but mine needed earthing.
  
 'Nearby redundant equaliser' means an equaliser which is positioned nearby but not being used. It has an earth point and that's what I attach the earth wire to. Not every piece of equipment has an earth point though. 
  
 Here's pictures of an earth wire attached by hooking through a hole in my Faraday cage which encloses a 6A6 tube in Ember, with the other end attached to an earth point on nearby equipment.
  
 Note the 'Chassis Earth' symbol by the connector, and even though the equipment with the earth point is redundant and not powered up, it still needs to be plugged into the mains, and requires a mains plug with an earth pin.
  
 Earth symbols can look slightly different. You can Google image those..


----------



## nix177

howie13 said:


> An earth wire is a wire that connects a piece of equipment to earth. Here's an explanatory link:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/add_aqa/electricity/householdelecrev5.shtml.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I was looking around the house. I don't have any equipment that has this "Chassis Earth" however I did look through some older posts on this thread. I see others using a copper wire to the thumb screws or use a copper wire and touch the top of the cap. Touching the cap sounded more dangerous. 
  
 I am going to revisit the foil idea tonight. Last time I didn't ground the foil so it didn't get rid of the earth hum. I will report back.


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> I was looking around the house. I don't have any equipment that has this "Chassis Earth" however I did look through some older posts on this thread. I see others using a copper wire to the thumb screws or use a copper wire and touch the top of the cap. Touching the cap sounded more dangerous.
> 
> I am going to revisit the foil idea tonight. Last time I didn't ground the foil so it didn't get rid of the earth hum. I will report back.


 
 Hopefully one of those earthing methods you are trying will get rid of the hum. Good luck.


----------



## JoeDoe

Figured I'd post some more developed impressions of my pseudo-V2 Ember: 
  
 In a word: capable. It's not like it's a secret, but all of the different settings and options I have to play with is just incredible. When I picked this guy up from the FS forum for under $300, I expected a bit due to the impressions I'd read, but I would not say I was expecting life change. Well, my life hasn't totally changed, but this little open-air wonder certainly continues to impress. 
  
 I've downsized and now I'm using the Mojo as a desktop DAC with great results. The Ken Rad VT231 plays wonderfully with my PS1000s and an EH6sn7 Gold Pin synergizes quite well with my Alpha Primes. I detect little if any grain or harshness in the sound!
  
 Still trying to figure out the best combination of resistance and output impedance for each headphone, but the clear and powerful sound I'm getting already doesn't give me any reason to hurry!


----------



## ericr

howie13 said:


> Hopefully one of those earthing methods you are trying will get rid of the hum. Good luck.




Earthing is called Grounding here in the USA.

This is probably obvious but I mention it just in case it's helpful to someone.


----------



## Amish

lol I was like What is earthing...then read his post and thought...oh grounding.


----------



## jbarrentine

As a Polaris owner is the Ember sound different enough with a capable tube to warrant a purchase? Pairing with HD600 and a modi multibit DAC.

Thx!


----------



## raab

Received my two Zenith 6J5's today
  
 With regards to the dual 6J5 adapter, do you guys not push all the way down into the ember? I noticed that you guys seem to have a larger gap in between the bottom of the adapter and the top of the ember, at the moment I've got two pieces of microfibre in between the adapter and the ember so I don't scratch it


----------



## DecentLevi

I usually had around a 1/3" inch gap between my adapter and the Ember socket, which seemed normal among others too, due to the fit. How are they sounding?


----------



## raab

True, I wonder if they've reduced the gap on the adapter (the black part with the bottom of the adapter) because if I push all the way down then the bottom of the adapter will touch top of the ember
  
 I'm not an audiophile by any stretch of the imagination so I can't describe it in terms that you would all be used to. All I can say is they sound great


----------



## HOWIE13

jbarrentine said:


> As a Polaris owner is the Ember sound different enough with a capable tube to warrant a purchase? Pairing with HD600 and a modi multibit DAC.
> 
> Thx!


 
  
 Ember's sound is determined by the tube you chose so it can indeed sound different from Polaris- whether you would prefer Ember is another matter. Tube amps have their own characteristics, which can make them both easier and harder to use compared to SS amps.


----------



## nix177

raab said:


> True, I wonder if they've reduced the gap on the adapter (the black part with the bottom of the adapter) because if I push all the way down then the bottom of the adapter will touch top of the ember
> 
> I'm not an audiophile by any stretch of the imagination so I can't describe it in terms that you would all be used to. All I can say is they sound great




Am I the only one hearing the grounding hum from them? Were they dead quiet for you?


----------



## Astral Abyss

nix177 said:


> Am I the only one hearing the grounding hum from them? Were they dead quiet for you?


 
  
 My 6J5 tubes with dual adapters (6J5 to 6SN7 and 6SN7 to 12AU7) are all completely quiet.  Sounds like you may have a bad adapter or are picking up noise from something nearby.


----------



## raab

nix177 said:


> Am I the only one hearing the grounding hum from them? Were they dead quiet for you?


 
 Yeah sorry man, they're dead quiet


----------



## HOWIE13

nix177 said:


> Am I the only one hearing the grounding hum from them? Were they dead quiet for you?


 
 As a class of tube, I've found the 6J5's to be quiet in Ember and free from hum, but there will probably always be the occasional tube which picks up ground/earth hums.
  
 Great pity, but as has already been said, it's worth checking the adapter is secure and cleaning the pins etc.


----------



## nwavesailor

The recent posts regarding Faraday Cages and quiet tubes finally got me to build one!
  
 Yes, it is a Project Starlight not an Ember, but using the adapter and 6J5's I needed that last little hint of noise to be eliminated. The cage did just that. Well worth the less than $3 in fencing materials used.
  
 I really enjoy the Visseaux 6J5's tubes and have 3 pairs but found that in my setup all were just a bit noisy..............now................ dead SILENT!
  
  
 .


----------



## Mechans1

faraday cages deter RFI RMI  these are ususally heard when a tube has a receptive circuitry for a certain combination of site specific energy frequency.  Tube that are noisy for other reasons should not usually benefit from these cages.I find it difficult to think that tube circuitry buzz or hum could be removed with such great efficiency as to remove that from the from the effluent pathway.
 Did you try your 6j5s elsewhere?


----------



## nwavesailor

Yes I did try the 6J5's w/ adapter in 2 locations. It made a similar sound in my shop and at my HP listening station.
  
*"a tube has a receptive circuitry for a certain combination of site specific energy frequency" *   Perhaps I mis-spoke (sound like a politician?) and characterizing these tubes as noisy was improper and what I was hearing was RFI???
  
 I could put my hand over the tube(s) or make a tent (w/o touching the tubes) from a sheet of aluminum foil and it got quieter so thus I made the cage.
  
 I just know it is now STONE quiet and that's what I wanted from the cage and this HP amp!


----------



## Mechans1

It is more expensive but a copper cage is best. Since whatever the fencing material is worked, and tin foil, sort of worked, there is no obvious need.  However compared with the cost of just one really good rare old tube it may not be all that bad.  I had an audio buddy who lived near a large tower with several radio broadcast antennae, and worked with him a bit on Farraday cages.
 I have been lucky myself, while I have had only a few bad 6SN7s in terms of noise,  Those I can't use but won't sell either.*  Most of my  "noisy"  6SN7s are microphonic" (only noisy the majority are fine), and then only when drummed upon while playing.  I have decided not to drum upon them.  I am fortunate in that I generally don't need to use microphonic tubes if I don't want to, because I have multiples of most.  There are some well respected tube people over on Tube Asylum of  Audio Asylum BTW that think some microphonics isn't such a bad thing, because it can add depth to the image.  It isn't unreasonable to me. The main thing is just not drumming on your tubes, but some can't help themselves. ( I wish that was pure humor, but there really are some people who when finding a flaw need to repeat it, until the tube in this example is annihilated ?ad destructio?). 
 I enjoy reading about your various trials and travails with breaking apart the constituent triode sections of a 6SN7 into the 6J5 triodes.  Now if you could find a 1.5 ode two of which would make a 6J5 that would really be impressive. 
  
 *Sometimes what goes around should not come around.  Du Hest!


----------



## bavinck

Hey folks, 
I know this is highly subjective, but those of you that have used the Ember/he560 combo for a while:what are your favourite tubes for that headphone? Something that really allows the strengths of the 560 to shine, without getting harsh or sibilant, also maintaining a nice deep rumble. Experiences?


----------



## husafreak

Here ya go:
Kameleon in-line filter assembly soon available from G1217! | DIY Audio Heaven


----------



## amigastar

Hello,
  
 want to try some new tube goodness and have a question about tubes for my Project Ember 2.0.
 What you guys think about this tube, is it legit (i mean if its sounds good)?
 http://www.ebay.de/itm/Tube-Roehre-Telefunken-ECC81-12AT7-geprueft-mit-AVO-Mark-IV-/322122781298
  
 if not, can somebody recommend me a good tube on a budget for about 26 Euros/Dollar?
 my preferences would be rather neutral but leaning to the warmer side.
  
 thx


----------



## Tayyab Pirzada

amigastar said:


> Hello,
> 
> want to try some new tube goodness and have a question about tubes for my Project Ember 2.0.
> What you guys think about this tube, is it legit (i mean if its sounds good)?
> ...


 
 I use a telefunken 12AT7 for my project starlight. i got it at similar price (around 29 dollars). amazing bass and width to soundstage. lots of good presence. i only use it now.


----------



## amigastar

Don't get me wrong, i'm sure the tube sounds good but what i'm not sure about (because i'm a noob) is that this specific tube is the real deal or are there things i have to look out for?


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> Don't get me wrong, i'm sure the tube sounds good but what i'm not sure about (because i'm a noob) is that this specific tube is the real deal or are there things i have to look out for?


 
  
  
 Not saying there's anything wrong with that particular tube, but is it a Telefunken, is it a Siemens, where's the Telefunken factory code, why isn't there a photo of the Telefunken diamond on the underside of the glass? Why are two of the three photos apparently irrelevant to the quality of the item? Does it matter? Maybe not, it may be a very good tube-but I have a golden rule never to buy tubes from sellers who refuse returns, so I would personally avoid this seller.


----------



## amigastar

howie13 said:


> Not saying there's anything wrong with that particular tube, but is it a Telefunken, is it a Siemens, where's the Telefunken factory code, why isn't there a photo of the Telefunken diamond on the underside of the glass? Why are two of the three photos apparently irrelevant to the quality of the item? Does it matter? Maybe not, it may be a very good tube-but I have a golden rule never to buy tubes from sellers who refuse returns, so I would personally avoid this seller.


 
 Gotcha, thanks HOWIE13. Is there a reliable Seller of tubes in Europe?


----------



## HOWIE13

I don't really take much notice of the name of the seller, as long as the tube is reasonably priced, has reasonable test results and can be returned.
  
 I've rarely had a problem, and when I have sellers have always been helpful, but then these are the sellers who allow returns. It may be more difficult if the seller specifically states he doesn't accept returns.
  
 I'm sure there are lots of other people on HF who do have favourite sellers though, maybe they will respond to your question more directly than me.


----------



## Amish

He has great feedback. That indicates he doesn't rip people off. That tubes looks legit but without inspecting the tube I can't say but at that price I would have no issues buying that tube from him.
  
 Just because someone doesn't offer returns doesn't mean they do bad business. I have two Ebay stores and I do not offer returns on anything I sell. I am not a business. I sell items I bought myself. Sometimes new, sometimes used. 
  
 Ebay has seller protection and if you pay with a credit card or paypal and you get the item and it is not legit you can return the item for a full refund via Ebay.
  
  
 I love me some Telefunken tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

@amigastar  Have a read of this. Gives some insight as to what is going on.
  
 http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/
  
 I agree with Amish that the tube you had in mind was not expensive. It's just that even if it's genuine, as it may well be, it may not sound the way you like or expected and I don't think ebay will take up a case for you against a seller just because you don't find the tube has enough bass or too much treble or wide enough sound stage, etc,etc, for your personal liking. 
  
 As I understand it, ebay and PayPal will protect you against failure of delivery of goods or false representation, not personal likes and dislikes of sonic quality.
 That's why I prefer tube sellers who allow a short period for returns, even if it's only a week and I pay for the return postage, so the seller doesn't lose out financially either and everyone is happy.


----------



## amigastar

Thats the exact feeling i got, namely buying fake tube even i didn't realize its possible, thanks for the article HOWIE13.
 Just another reason more buying my tubes from sellers like Garage1217 even if it's oversea.


----------



## HOWIE13

amigastar said:


> Thats the exact feeling i got, namely buying fake tube even i didn't realize its possible, thanks for the article HOWIE13.
> Just another reason more buying my tubes from sellers like Garage1217 even if it's oversea.


 
 Yes Jeremy is very helpful too. If you tell him the sort of sound you are seeking he will advise the best tube for you.


----------



## Amish

So I have been rolling tubes in the Ember I and now Ember II for quite some time. I've been with Ember since Ember was newish if I'm not mistaken. Ember is not even my favorite tube amp. That said I have rolled tubes from bugle boys to old telefunkens, and everything in between. I have done the 6SN7 and loved it. 12AX7 has been my favorite followed up closely with 12AT7, but 6SN7 has been that filler that made me feel I found the best all a round tube for the Ember. Then I bought the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z....this is end game for me. It has everything all the best tubes I own has...with a quiet noise floor and better clarity. Not super happy about the price per tube but I have to admit it was worth it.


----------



## amigastar

So i decided to get in the next days:
*"*6SN7 (used vintage) combined with our 6SN7 tube adapter $39.99"
  
 from Garage 1217. Just wanted to ask, do i need the Tube adapter with my Ember 2.0?. I presume it's plug n play, right?
 How much playtime do i get usually with "used vintage"?
  
 Is there a commonly known Bang for the buck tube? I already have the 6n6p tube which has a lot of listening time on it..
  
 How's the Amperex 6DJ8? Whats the sound signature?


----------



## ericr

Yes, the 6SN7 adapter is needed with both Ember I & II.

Everything Jeremy sells is top quality, including his tubes. While he doesn't often carry the more rare/expensive tubes those he does sell are tested and often a great value. His used tubes should give you several hundreds of hours (if not much more).


----------



## Astral Abyss

Anyone else planning to get, or interested in, the new Kameleon coming out from Garage1217 later this month?  
  
 http://www.garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_019.htm
  
 This is actually one of the most unique and interesting new products I've seen in a while.  I'd love to be able to get rid of the software EQ in my chain.  I told my wife I already know what she can get me for Christmas.  Then I just need the modules for my HD800 and LCD 2.2F and I'm set.  If I can get Jeremy to make some Grado modules, I'll be in heaven.
  
 I'm hoping Kameleon stacks under the Ember since I don't have room to set them side-by-side.


----------



## ktmracer12345

I hit Jeremy up about it and I'm going to go check it out at his place next month. It's definitely not going to have nearly the precision that a software EQ will. If you're in search of a perfect EQ, the Kameleon is definitely not the way. If you are just wishing for a bit more bass (or can't stand the HD800 because of it's piercing highs), this appears to be the best place to start. If you're listening to vinyl, I think this is by far the best option at this price.
  
 Two big takeaways to think about: 
  
 1. This could change the pecking order of headphones. Different headphones will each have different levels of improvement. With a few minor changes, flawed headphones could turn into great headphones. Headphones like the HD700 could become real players. Our idea of value could change if tacking a couple hundred dollars onto a $500 headphone makes it compete with $1000+ headphones. 
  
 2. Mixing filters also could be interesting. There is a different filter for both K701's and K702's. This gives AKG users options in case their perceived flaws aren't the same as Jeremy's (or Frans') perceived flaws. This could go infinitely deep with future filters.
  
 Just guessing, it doesn't look like it's going to stack. I could be wrong, but I believe the filters might be too tall. Otherwise he probably would've left them under the acrylic rather than cutting a hole. Also, I'm sure he's going to be putting out filters for nearly everything. He already has a big list and the product isn't even out yet. I'm guessing it isn't too hard to design the filters based off his progress already.


----------



## amigastar

Just bought the 6SN7 from Jeremy. Looking forward to try it.


----------



## Astral Abyss

amigastar said:


> Just bought the 6SN7 from Jeremy. Looking forward to try it.


 
  
 The adapter or a tube?  If tube, which one?


----------



## amigastar

I bought the "6SN7 (used vintage) combined with 6SN7 tube adapter" for $39.99. Unfortunately I don't know which 6SN7, Jeremy told me that the tube is warmer than an Amperex 6DJ8 though, which i opted also for.


----------



## amigastar

astral abyss said:


> The adapter or a tube?  If tube, which one?


 
 It's a vintage Sylvania yellow label black plate / chrome top 6sn7


----------



## Astral Abyss

amigastar said:


> It's a vintage Sylvania yellow label black plate / chrome top 6sn7


 
  
 I have several Sylvania 6SN7s.  I like the way they sound.  There's a bunch of different designs that all sound different.  If you like the way that one sounds, you'll have to do a bit of research and see what all their other designs are.  I'm still looking for a reasonably priced Slyvania 6SN7W with good specs.


----------



## bavinck

amish said:


> So I have been rolling tubes in the Ember I and now Ember II for quite some time. I've been with Ember since Ember was newish if I'm not mistaken. Ember is not even my favorite tube amp. That said I have rolled tubes from bugle boys to old telefunkens, and everything in between. I have done the 6SN7 and loved it. 12AX7 has been my favorite followed up closely with 12AT7, but 6SN7 has been that filler that made me feel I found the best all a round tube for the Ember. Then I bought the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z....this is end game for me. It has everything all the best tubes I own has...with a quiet noise floor and better clarity. Not super happy about the price per tube but I have to admit it was worth it.




What do you like about the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z beyond a typical 6sn7gt? I am running a 6an7gt into my hd650 and I like it. If I could get even more a lush sound I would pay those prices.


----------



## Amish

bavinck said:


> What do you like about the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z beyond a typical 6sn7gt? I am running a 6an7gt into my hd650 and I like it. If I could get even more a lush sound I would pay those prices.


 

 I'll quote my post from here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/5955#post_12913875
  


> So clean sounding. I'm a little shocked at the low noise floor of this tube. I'm used to tubes putting a little noise out when no music is playing and this thing is so quiet! What a pleasant surprise. It helps to produce some nice clean highs, very deep bass compared to most of my tubes kinda reminds me of some of my punchy 60's era bugle boys and it has a very smooth mid-range. Lots of body and space. Clarity abounds and a richness to the music is very welcome.


  
 As for lushness. Well that is tuff. I have a few Telefunkens that ooze lush where as the 6SN7 tubes that I own aren't really lush sounding in comparison. This CV181-Z isn't really a lush tube to me. I think if that is your goal then there are better options out there. That lush warmish 3dish sound is better served by a nice telefunken IMO. I would compare the Treasure more to a very nice sounding Amperex bugle boy from the 1960 or so but with deeper cleaner bass better mids and smoother highs.
  
 I have several 6SN7 tubes and to me the Treasure is a step above over all of them. I currently own the following 6SN7 tubes:
  
 1946 RCA 6SN7GT Black Plates, Copper Grids, [o] Getter
 1960's Sylvania 6SN7GTB Red label, Black Triangle plates, halo getter
 Raytheon JAN-CRP-6SN7GT VT-231
  
 I hope this helps.


----------



## Amish

astral abyss said:


> Anyone else planning to get, or interested in, the new Kameleon coming out from Garage1217 later this month?


 
  
 I'm tossing around the idea. I know Fran has been using these filters for a long time and others seem to like them a lot. That said I would want the docking unit that can be used with other amps but only if it can be used with the Ember and Polaris as well. I hardly run my Ember but once in awhile so i would want the dock that can be used with all of my amps. I don't see why it wouldn't work with the Ember even if it states for NON garage1217 amps. I sent a message out to Jeremy and I'll wait for his response before committing.
  
 The major downside to me is the price. $229.99 for the dock, plus $39.99 X2 for the LCD2 and HD600 filters. I think that will be about the same I spent for just the Ember give or take...


----------



## bavinck

amish said:


> I'll quote my post from here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/5955#post_12913875
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks. Would a Telefunken 12au7 be pretty lush?


----------



## Amish

bavinck said:


> Thanks. Would a Telefunken 12au7 be pretty lush?


 

 That is a good question. I have not heard one so I can't say for sure. All of mine are 12at7. I prefer the higher gain of 12AT and 12AX. I have several 12AU7 tubes but sorry I have not heard a Telefunken 12au7. That makes me curious though!
  
 The most lush sounding Telefunken I have heard is my 1959 12AT7.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello old friends on the Ember tube rolling thread,
  
 In order to balance out the synergy with a rare tube I recently acquired for another amp, I'm in need of assistance in finding a 'darker' tube to pair it with. Would anybody here please recommend a tube which is known to have recessed treble and bass emphasis? It's for the driver tube of my other amp, which uses the same types as the Ember so it should be 6DJ8 / 12AT7, 6SN7, etc. class. I really need to find a tube that is not only bassy, but also somewhat treble shy in order to get better synergy with this... if anyone can please recommend a type that would be helpful, or if you have an extra pair then please send me a PM so we can work something out. Thanks!
  
 PS - Howie 13 thanks for your help on this, but I'm still searching


----------



## HOWIE13

decentlevi said:


> Hello old friends on the Ember tube rolling thread,
> 
> In order to balance out the synergy with a rare tube I recently acquired for another amp, I'm in need of assistance in finding a 'darker' tube to pair it with. Would anybody here please recommend a tube which is known to have recessed treble and bass emphasis? It's for the driver tube of my other amp, which uses the same types as the Ember so it should be 6DJ8 / 12AT7, 6SN7, etc. class. I really need to find a tube that is not only bassy, but also somewhat treble shy in order to get better synergy with this... if anyone can please recommend a type that would be helpful, or if you have an extra pair then please send me a PM so we can work something out. Thanks!
> 
> PS - Howie 13 thanks for your help on this, but I'm still searching


 
  
 K-R 6SN7 VT231 has been previously mentioned and I think that was a very good suggestion. Also worth considering 6N6P.


----------



## DecentLevi

Yes thanks but as far as I understand, these tubes may be bass heavy but still are _not_ recessed in the treble, if that's correct? Any other suggestions on this would be helpful


----------



## Tunkejazz

decentlevi said:


> Yes thanks but as far as I understand, these tubes may be bass heavy but still are _not_ recessed in the treble, if that's correct? Any other suggestions on this would be helpful



That is also my experience with the K-R.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> That is also my experience with the K-R.


 
 You 're right. The treble is present, it's more the upper mids which are a bit thin maybe compared to the bass. A great tube in the right circumstances.


----------



## d3rrlck

> Hello old friends on the Ember tube rolling thread,
> 
> In order to balance out the synergy with a rare tube I recently acquired for another amp, I'm in need of assistance in finding a 'darker' tube to pair it with. Would anybody here please recommend a tube which is known to have recessed treble and bass emphasis? It's for the driver tube of my other amp, which uses the same types as the Ember so it should be 6DJ8 / 12AT7, 6SN7, etc. class. I really need to find a tube that is not only bassy, but also somewhat treble shy in order to get better synergy with this... if anyone can please recommend a type that would be helpful, or if you have an extra pair then please send me a PM so we can work something out. Thanks!
> 
> PS - Howie 13 thanks for your help on this, but I'm still searching


 
  
 I was about to suggest the dual 6C5G tube in 6J5 adapter if possible. Bass and mids are strong on the 6C5G, but has bit rolled off treble compared to the V's 6J5. The K-R VT231 sounded more like a mild V-shape to me, but for bass, 6C5G wins over K-R (at least on ember).


----------



## DecentLevi

If anyone would like to buy 6J5 tubes, please PM me. I have a stealthy good pair of the reputed Visseaux 6J5's, as well as a pair of the straight-form Sylvania and Selectron 6J5's and two of the required 6SN7 to dual 6J5 adapters


----------



## d3rrlck

To anyone, what's your favorite tube to pair with HD650?


----------



## DavidA

d3rrlck said:


> To anyone, what's your favorite tube to pair with HD650?


 
 Telefunken 12AU7 for me.


----------



## Astral Abyss

d3rrlck said:


> To anyone, what's your favorite tube to pair with HD650?


 
  
 I'm rather partial to the Tung Sol mouse ear 6SN7GT.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello old friends, I'm quoting this from the newest Elise thread, in hopes for clarification:
  


decentlevi said:


> On a different topic, I've noticed our Elise 6SN7 class drivers are even far more flexible than we may have realised! Here's a tube compatibility chart for 6SN7 including it's little brethren of the ECC88 / 6DJ8 / 12AU7 type (the smaller all work with the same 6SN7 to ^^ adapter. Basically 12AX7, 12AV7, 12AZ7 etc. are mostly just different from the gain factor, the higher the letter preceding the 7 indicates louder gain, if I understand correctly
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  


oskari said:


> Warning: *They Do Not!*


 
  


2359glenn said:


> The 12A_7 tubes can be used with the right adapter that will be different then a ECC88/6DJ8 adapter.
> ECC88 and 6DJ8 are 6.3 volt tubes.
> 12A_7 tubes are 6.3 or 12.6 volts according to how they are wired.


 


decentlevi said:


> Apologies, Oskari. It looks like the 12A_(T,U,V,X)_7 class tubes are generally not compatible in the Elise's 6SN7 driver tube slot. However there are 6 volt versions (the ones with parallel wiring) which should definitely work, though needing their own adapter. This data sheet shows the voltage / heater current for both serial and parallel versions of these tubes:
> 
> http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/093/1/12AT7.pdf
> 
> ...


 
  
 So can a 12 volt 12A_7 tube be used on a 6SN7 slot via a 12AX7 adapter, or only the 6v version? And how to tell if it's a 6v version? And does it also work with an ECC88 adapter?
  
*EDIT*: some members at Head-Fi have revealed the 12A_7 series can be converted to 6v via the corrent adapter's parallel circuitry. These need their own adapter, but the 6CG7 / 6FQ7's can be used in an ECC88 adapter


----------



## HOWIE13

DELETED POST


----------



## Mechans1

decentlevi said:


> Hello old friends on the Ember tube rolling thread,
> 
> In order to balance out the synergy with a rare tube I recently acquired for another amp, I'm in need of assistance in finding a 'darker' tube to pair it with. Would anybody here please recommend a tube which is known to have recessed treble and bass emphasis? It's for the driver tube of my other amp, which uses the same types as the Ember so it should be 6DJ8 / 12AT7, 6SN7, etc. class. I really need to find a tube that is not only bassy, but also somewhat treble shy in order to get better synergy with this... if anyone can please recommend a type that would be helpful, or if you have an extra pair then please send me a PM so we can work something out. Thanks!
> 
> PS - Howie 13 thanks for your help on this, but I'm still searching



I am using this in case you never found the synergy you sought. For about 6 or 7 years I couldn't get a pair of Focal Electras a hich retailed for 6 kil0 bucks to sound the way I wanted. It took Cardas gold reference ICs Jena speaker cables an AE 3 ,Cary preamp with Sylvania Ws and the final pieces were tube monobloc amps.
Try using Cardas cabling but make sure its the gold reference type, not the newer cleaner detailed stuff. Moon Audio may have something. NO affiliation and not even a customer but they have, Cardas cables.


----------



## nwavesailor

I have listed a pair of Visseaux 6J5g.
  
 "SOLD"


----------



## jaywillin

Rocking the national union 6f8g today, hadn't listened to it in a while, nice to change things up every now and then


(bad cell phone pic)


----------



## nwavesailor

jaywillin said:


> Rocking the national union 6f8g today, hadn't listened to it in a while, nice to change things up every now and then
> 
> 
> (bad cell phone pic)


 

 Yep, I use a NU or TungSol 6F8G fairly regularly as well as the Visseaux 6J5G.............both are great sounding tubes!!!


----------



## jaywillin

nwavesailor said:


> Yep, I use a NU or TungSol 6F8G fairly regularly as well as the Visseaux 6J5G.............both are great sounding tubes!!!



Haven't gone for the 6j5g yet, I've had the sunrise for a while, a love it, but with the adapters, biasing can be tricky, especially with my middle aged eyes, so I'd decided to hold off on any more of the dual tube set up tubes, if, and until I get an ember


----------



## nwavesailor

jaywillin said:


> Haven't gone for the 6j5g yet, I've had the sunrise for a while, a love it, but with the adapters, biasing can be tricky, especially with my middle aged eyes, so I'd decided to hold off on any more of the dual tube set up tubes, if, and until I get an ember


 

  I have the Starlight so manual bias setting for me as well. I dial in the 6F8G bias and a few other 6 volt tubes that are close in bias and call that close enough for the dual 6J5G's!
  
 Really quiet over here now that so many of the old regulars have moved over to the Elise amp.....................


----------



## jaywillin

nwavesailor said:


> I have the Starlight so manual bias setting for me as well. I dial in the 6F8G bias and a few other 6 volt tubes that are close in bias and call that close enough for the dual 6J5G's!
> 
> Really quiet over here now that so many of the old regulars have moved over to the Elise amp.....................



Never really considered that, I've always biased before listening, 
I can be a tad OCD


----------



## nwavesailor

Yeah, not optimal for an accurate bias, but with my Starlight the adapter covers the L and R trim pots.
 I suppose I could (should!) rotate it 90 degrees as others with the Ember have done, gain access and do it right!!! OCD is a common trait in most of us in this wacky quest for better sound.


----------



## Astral Abyss

nwavesailor said:


> I have the Starlight so manual bias setting for me as well. I dial in the 6F8G bias and a few other 6 volt tubes that are close in bias and call that close enough for the dual 6J5G's!
> 
> Really quiet over here now that so many of the old regulars have moved over to the Elise amp.....................


 
  
 I still listen to my Ember almost daily.  In fact, I just listened to it with a 1958 Foton 6N8S that I got off ebay to see if the tube was any good.  So far, I'm liking this tube a lot.  I normally listen to this amp using both my HD800 and GS1000e.


----------



## gug42

Hey, Guys
  
 Really happy with my project ember  it s kick some asses 
 The headphone i know the most, dt 990,  is different so much mode ! Very good with th-x00 too 
 But (because there is one), with HE 500, i found the trebble  a little to aggressive / birght  ... not improved in the way i was thinking.
  
 So well any advice about tubes with warm sound and really soft trebble and high medium please ?
  
 Regards


----------



## DavidA

gug42 said:


> Hey, Guys
> 
> Really happy with my project ember  it s kick some asses
> The headphone i know the most, dt 990,  is different so much mode ! Very good with th-x00 too
> ...


 
 Mullard or Amperex are usually warmer sound tubes so they should help a little with the treble of the HE-500.  For the HE-500 I would use speaker taps rather than a headphone amp since its not that efficient.


----------



## gug42

Thx
 Another question, in witch format/references ?
 (too many thing for my brain ... ecc88/82/80/ec2n and so on little lost)
  
 Speaker taps are full size speaker amps that's it ?


----------



## DavidA

gug42 said:


> Thx
> Another question, in witch format/references ?
> (too many thing for my brain ... ecc88/82/80/ec2n and so on little lost)
> 
> Speaker taps are full size speaker amps that's it ?


 
 For the Mullard or Amperex I like 12AU7/ECC82 or 12AX7/ECC83, had a little problem with channel imbalance using 6922/6DJ8/E88CC
  
 Correct, speaker taps are the speaker output of a full size speaker amp


----------



## jaywillin

it's a sad day here, i sent the sunrise back to jeremy for a repair, the power switch sometimes wasn't working, not making a connection, and the power jack was a little loose, wiggly ,
 causing the amp to lose power, no other amps just using the marantz's headphone out, and it's not too bad, but the sunrise is better


----------



## DavidA

jaywillin said:


> it's a sad day here, i sent the sunrise back to jeremy for a repair, the power switch sometimes wasn't working, not making a connection, and the power jack was a little loose, wiggly ,
> causing the amp to lose power, no other amps just using the marantz's headphone out, and it's not too bad, but the sunrise is better


 
 Time to get a backup Garage 1217 amp


----------



## jaywillin

davida said:


> Time to get a backup Garage 1217 amp


 
 i'd actually considered that, and jeremy been so great helping me out, answering questions, and he's so quick to respond
 but what to get, starlight, i could roll op-amps, horizon OTL, polaris, solid state , ...............lol


----------



## nwavesailor

Howie was kind enough to send me his notes on 13 op-amps he tried in the Starlight.
 I think I ended up testing 9 or 10 'flavors' before settling on OPA626 singles soldered on a Brown Dog single to dual adapter. Kind of expensive if you buy the real deals from Digikey or Mouser, not some relabeled junk on E-Bay!
 I was really taken back by how much better the OPA626 were, IMO, compared to all the other op-amps I tried in the Starlight.


----------



## DavidA

jaywillin said:


> i'd actually considered that, and jeremy been so great helping me out, answering questions, and he's so quick to respond
> but what to get, starlight, i could roll op-amps, horizon OTL, polaris, solid state , ...............lol


 
 I was looking for another DAC/amp for one of my other systems and was thinking of getting a Polaris to use with a spare Modi2uber that I have or the other option was a second UD-301 of if I can find a decent price UD-501.


----------



## jaywillin

nwavesailor said:


> Howie was kind enough to send me his notes on 13 op-amps he tried in the Starlight.
> I think I ended up testing 9 or 10 'flavors' before settling on OPA626 singles soldered on a Brown Dog single to dual adapter. Kind of expensive if you buy the real deals from Digikey or Mouser, not some relabeled junk on E-Bay!
> I was really taken back by how much better the OPA626 were, IMO, compared to all the other op-amps I tried in the Starlight.


 
 when i had the gustard h10, i was amazed at the difference the op-amps made


----------



## jaywillin

davida said:


> I was looking for another DAC/amp for one of my other systems and was thinking of getting a Polaris to use with a spare Modi2uber that I have or the other option was a second UD-301 of if I can find a decent price UD-501.


 
 i've had my 301 longer than any other dac i've had except for the wadia 121
 it's great !  i would like to give the mimby a try though


----------



## DavidA

jaywillin said:


> i've had my 301 longer than any other dac i've had except for the wadia 121
> it's great !  i would like to give the mimby a try though


 
 Got a Bimby and I like the 301 better, multi-bit is over rated with some DACs to me but the Mimby is a steal at $250 but the modi2uber is right there with Bimby to me for 1/4 the price.


----------



## jaywillin

davida said:


> Got a Bimby and I like the 301 better, multi-bit is over rated with some DACs to me but the Mimby is a steal at $250 but the modi2uber is right there with Bimby to me for 1/4 the price.



I'll be setting up a second system soon, as soon as I set up my man cave up, im going to move the marantz in there, so I'll be needing a second DAC myself, and maybe a second head amp I there as well


----------



## gug42

Someone tell me the best tube for ember are e80cc.

Any opinion ? Why ?


----------



## DavidA

gug42 said:


> Someone tell me the best tube for ember are e80cc.
> 
> Any opinion ? Why ?


 
 I don't know about best but they are pricy since they are rated at 10,000 hours and are no longer in production so they are getting hard to find and are priced as such.


----------



## Tunkejazz

To be honest I think the "best", by thread consensus, are the Vissaux 6J5. The problem is that the UK supplier that sold them "cheap" ran out of them and now it takes a fortune to get a pair (plus adapter).

The 6n23p single wire from the 70's are also very special. To be honest changing tubes makes a small difference to the sound but it is not that large compared to changing other things.

In the end I have been using a very cheap 6N6P en the office because it does not pick any EMI in such an environment.

Enjoy it!


----------



## husafreak

I personally never had interference issues with my Ember II. Initially I got a bunch of inexpensive tubes to play with. I liked the 12AX7, 12AU7, and JAN6922. I preferred the 6N6P over those and settled on that one for awhile. Then the bug for more exotic tubes bit me and I got a Sylvania 6SN7GTB and adapter from Garage 1217. I really liked this tube and used that for a long time before purchasing a dual tube Franken Ember setup, two Zenith 6J5G tubes and an adapter. That setup was pretty expensive, I think $110 USD for everything. It looks cool and sounds great. I may be kidding myself that "bigger sounds better" but I do think the bigger tubes give greater soundstage and power to the sound. I can clearly hear differences in all these tubes but had trouble deciding which is "better" among the inexpensive tubes. The 6N6P and 6SN7GTB+adapter were recommended by and purchased from Jeremy at Garage 1217. I would recommend the 6N6P to anyone wanting to keep it simple and avoid adapters.


----------



## nwavesailor

tunkejazz said:


> To be honest I think the "best", by thread consensus, are the Vissaux 6J5. The problem is that the UK supplier that sold them "cheap" ran out of them and now it takes a fortune to get a pair (plus adapter).


 
  
 I keep going back to the dual Visseaux 6J5's. There is just _something_ about them!
  
 If I did not have the 'V's, I could easily live with some nice Amperex / Philps (made in Holland) 6DJ8/ 6922/7308, some 12AU7's and a variety of 6F8G & 6SN7's I have tried.


----------



## gug42

Hello all,
  
 Thx you for your reply ! So I will not go for e80cc 
  
 Well i will go for Amperex or mullard  : my objective is to have the smoothest trebble possible 
 So any advice in that direction are welcome


----------



## HOWIE13

gug42 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Thx you for your reply ! So I will not go for e80cc
> 
> ...


 
 Your DT990's are a bit peaky in the treble so I personally find the aforementioned Russian 6N6P, RCA 6F8G (needs adapter), Tung-Sol 6SN7GT 'Mouse Ears' (needs adapter) and RCA 12AU7 'Clear Top' to work well with your cans and Ember.
  
 Please remember though we all have different ears and brains and only you can judge by listening what suits best.
 Good luck!


----------



## nwavesailor

gug42 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Thx you for your reply ! So I will not go for e80cc
> 
> ...


 

 You don't need to go with the 'Bugle Boy' branded Amperex / Philips production of 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308 or 12AU7 just look for "Made in Holland" and etched sideways triangle that denotes Heerlen plant production. I have the RCA clear top 12AU7's that Howie 13 mentioned, but have not given them any listening time to evaluate. They RCA's clear top tubes are plentiful and reasonably priced at any rate. Howie has used the RCA clear tops, and knows your cans, so the RCA's may be an inexpensive option for you to try.


----------



## HOWIE13

@gug42
  
 Hi again.
  
 I've just realised you have not told us what tubes you are using at present, at least I can't see that information. If you could tell us the tubes you are using just now which you find too bright it would be very beneficial. Then it would be possible to give you more precise advice. 
  
 Thanks


----------



## DavidA

gug42 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Thx you for your reply ! So I will not go for e80cc
> 
> ...


 
 another thing is to play with the output resistance settings, it might make about the same changes as tubes.  For my DT-990 250ohms, I usually use the middle setting and get a good balance of controlled treble and tight bass.


----------



## jaywillin

davida said:


> another thing is to play with the output resistance settings, it might make about the same changes as tubes.  For my DT-990 250ohms, I usually use the middle setting and get a good balance of controlled treble and tight bass.


 
 you know i haven't really messed with the output resistance too much, i did what i first got the sunrise, but now maybe that i've had it a while, and i'm more familiar with individual tubes
 it might be time, i think i have mine set on the middle setting,


----------



## DavidA

jaywillin said:


> you know i haven't really messed with the output resistance too much, i did what i first got the sunrise, but now maybe that i've had it a while, and i'm more familiar with individual tubes
> it might be time, i think i have mine set on the middle setting,


 
 I don't think there is a "correct" setting but for planar headphones the low .01 setting is best to me while the middle setting is great for most of my other dynamics.


----------



## gug42

Hello,
  
 First, thank you guys for all thoses informations ! (I'm a little overwhelmed now ) !
  
 Well, my first objective is to drive somes headphoes with softes and smouthes trebble as possible : HE 500, DT 1770, fostex th-x00.
  
 For HE 500 another option is a full amps with adpater ... but well ... not for this time 
 (DT 990 why not but not my proprity). 
  
 I have two tubes : stock and a tungsram e80cc. The tungsram is really dynamic (a bit too moch ?) and get too high/sharp trebble for me. The stock tube ... missing something
  
 Well good idea to try with output impedance settings ! I will do tomorrow  and with the stock tube.
  
 From all responses, I have noted this in top cost effective tubes :
 - 6N6NP gold pin  : wich version ? how to know ? all price exite on ebay ....
 - 12BH7 gold pin : well from  garage says mellow top end ? good thing no ?
  
  
 And thoses, more expensives, but can be really good options :
 - Mullard or Amperex 12AU7/ECC82 or 12AX7/ECC83
  
  
 Others options are :
 - 12AU7 RCA clear tops : could be brighter for me
 - Amperex / Philips 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308 or 12AU7 : not really needed
 - Sylvania 6SN7GTBwith adapter  a bit expensive no ?
 - Vissaux 6J5 : to espensive from ebay
 - 6n23p  : why not
  
  
 And well when you say " "Made in Holland" and etched sideways triangle that denotes Heerlen plant production" : can you point me to any pics ? I'm note sure i can see this on ebay 
  
 By the way, about e80cc some people says to me : project ember doesn't have enough power to "drive" them well. your opinion ?
  
 Thank again evry one !
  
 Well i'have quoted response to easy follow thing ... tell me if it's a problem 
  
 Regards !
  
 Quote:


davida said:


> For the Mullard or Amperex I like 12AU7/ECC82 or 12AX7/ECC83, had a little problem with channel imbalance using 6922/6DJ8/E88CC
> 
> Correct, speaker taps are the speaker output of a full size speaker amp


 
  
  
  


nwavesailor said:


> You don't need to go with the 'Bugle Boy' branded Amperex / Philips production of 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308 or 12AU7 just look for "Made in Holland" and etched sideways triangle that denotes Heerlen plant production. I have the RCA clear top 12AU7's that Howie 13 mentioned, but have not given them any listening time to evaluate. They RCA's clear top tubes are plentiful and reasonably priced at any rate. Howie has used the RCA clear tops, and knows your cans, so the RCA's may be an inexpensive option for you to try.


 
  
  


tunkejazz said:


> To be honest I think the "best", by thread consensus, are the Vissaux 6J5. The problem is that the UK supplier that sold them "cheap" ran out of them and now it takes a fortune to get a pair (plus adapter).
> 
> The 6n23p single wire from the 70's are also very special. To be honest changing tubes makes a small difference to the sound but it is not that large compared to changing other things.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


husafreak said:


> I personally never had interference issues with my Ember II. Initially I got a bunch of inexpensive tubes to play with. I liked the 12AX7, 12AU7, and JAN6922. I preferred the 6N6P over those and settled on that one for awhile. Then the bug for more exotic tubes bit me and I got a Sylvania 6SN7GTB and adapter from Garage 1217. I really liked this tube and used that for a long time before purchasing a dual tube Franken Ember setup, two Zenith 6J5G tubes and an adapter. That setup was pretty expensive, I think $110 USD for everything. It looks cool and sounds great. I may be kidding myself that "bigger sounds better" but I do think the bigger tubes give greater soundstage and power to the sound. I can clearly hear differences in all these tubes but had trouble deciding which is "better" among the inexpensive tubes. The 6N6P and 6SN7GTB+adapter were recommended by and purchased from Jeremy at Garage 1217. I would recommend the 6N6P to anyone wanting to keep it simple and avoid adapters.


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> Your DT990's are a bit peaky in the treble so I personally find the aforementioned Russian 6N6P, RCA 6F8G (needs adapter), Tung-Sol 6SN7GT 'Mouse Ears' (needs adapter) and RCA 12AU7 'Clear Top' to work well with your cans and Ember.
> 
> Please remember though we all have different ears and brains and only you can judge by listening what suits best.
> Good luck!


 
  
  


howie13 said:


> @gug42
> 
> Hi again.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


davida said:


> I don't think there is a "correct" setting but for planar headphones the low .01 setting is best to me while the middle setting is great for most of my other dynamics.


 
  
  


nwavesailor said:


> I keep going back to the dual Visseaux 6J5's. There is just _something_ about them!
> 
> If I did not have the 'V's, I could easily live with some nice Amperex / Philps (made in Holland) 6DJ8/ 6922/7308, some 12AU7's and a variety of 6F8G & 6SN7's I have tried.


 
  
  


davida said:


> another thing is to play with the output resistance settings, it might make about the same changes as tubes.  For my DT-990 250ohms, I usually use the middle setting and get a good balance of controlled treble and tight bass.


----------



## nwavesailor




----------



## ericr

After striving and spending too much money on too many tubes I have found it very easy to settle in on the Sylvania 6SN7W.

Has anyone had the opportunity to compare the dual Visseaux 6J5 to the 6SN7W?

Thanks


----------



## Tunkejazz

About the 6n6p, I got mine for 12 USD on ebay. From the 60's with gold grids.


----------



## gug42

Hello 

I ve by a 6n6p with gold grid from 70 : http://www.ebay.fr/itm/181839585673?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

At least it will give me a "sound start " 

For Sylvania 6SN7W adapter is needed ? 

Well any opinion on 12BH7 ?


----------



## HOWIE13

@gug42
  
 Okay, thanks for clarifying which tubes you have already heard.
  
 I think the 'clear top' may still be too bright up top for you, although it's a lovely tube.
  
 I would think about a 6N6P. There are many Russian factories which made this tube and for me they all sound near enough the same if they come from the 'Cold War' period '50-'80's.
  
 The Tung-Sol 6SN7GT 'Mouse Ears' would be another option too, assuming you have the current production Ember with the wide octal tube fitting hole in the top plate.
  
  
 Here's a 6N6P at a good price. Jeremy used to sell them too.
  
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6N6P-6-6-Russian-NOS-tubes-military-OTK-stamp-1pc-/201784813584?hash=item2efb4fe810:g:00sAAOSwnNBXbqjA
  
 Here's a 'Mouse Ears-this one measures rather low so may not have much life left. You could look for a stronger reading one. 
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6SN7GT-Tube-Tung-Sol-Mouse-Ears-T-Plate-/252755436550?hash=item3ad965e406:g:s2IAAOSw241YjPNy
  
 You also need a 6SN7 to ECC88 adapter for this. Jeremy sells a nice one or you could look on eBay-this sort of thing:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-6SN7-TO-ECC88-6DJ8-6N11-6922-tube-adapter-for-you-amp-/191082281033?hash=item2c7d643849:g:7TMAAOSwYHxWLiMM


----------



## ericr

gug42 said:


> Hello
> 
> I ve by a 6n6p with gold grid from 70 : http://m.ebay.fr/orderDetails?itemId=181839585673&txnId=1615884385008
> 
> ...




Yes, an adapteris needed for any 6SN7 - Jeremy at Garage1217 has what you need.

The 12BH7 was among my favorites (pre Sylvania 6SN7W) and give a very good value to $$$ ratio. There is a good review of these I have bookmarked on my computer at work if you are interested.

-Eric


----------



## gug42

@HOWIE13
  
 Thank you for your link  Greats start for me 
  
 I bought this  one, is it ok for you ? http://www.ebay.fr/itm/181839585673?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Your adapter is so less costy than one from garage1217 !
  
 By the way, i will not go for a "12AU7 RCA clear tops"  (beacuse of the possibility too bright for me, there are so many tubes to tests)
  


ericr said:


> Yes, an adapteris needed for any 6SN7 - Jeremy at Garage1217 has what you need.
> 
> The 12BH7 was among my favorites (pre Sylvania 6SN7W) and give a very good value to $$$ ratio. There is a good review of these I have bookmarked on my computer at work if you are interested.
> 
> -Eric


 
  
 Yes, please, i'm interested to read it


----------



## HOWIE13

gug42 said:


> @HOWIE13
> 
> Thank you for your link  Greats start for me
> 
> ...


 
 That looks a nice tube, very good price, and you get 0.01g of gold in the tube as well!!


----------



## gug42

Thank you for your opinion. By the way I havent notice before :  the package will contain 2 tubes 
  
 By the way, i'm very interested by thoses :
 - 12bh7 from EH ?
  -  6SN7 with converter. But well there is so many references and producers
 - - Mullard or Amperex 12AU7/ECC82 or 12AX7/ECC83 : but they are really expensive


----------



## HOWIE13

gug42 said:


> Thank you for your opinion. By the way I havent notice before :  the package will contain 2 tubes


 
 Even better- 0.02g of gold!


----------



## gug42

Hihi 
  
 How can i know is it good or bad value for a 12AT7 Mullard tube :
*Factory spec.= 10mA/10mA, 5mA/V/5mA/V @ 250/-2*
 First are *Emission *and second *Transconductance / Mutual conductance *
  
 Tube 1 : *9,4mA / 7,6mA || * * 5,1mA/V / 4,2mA/V*
 Tube 2 : 8,8mA / 9,2mA || 4,6 mA / 4,6 mA
 Tube 3 : 14,5 / 13,6 mA || 4,9 ma / 4,9 mA
  
 By the way can you point me to a good explanation about thoses things ?


----------



## Tunkejazz

gug42 said:


> Hihi
> 
> How can i know is it good or bad value for a 12AT7 Mullard tube :
> *Factory spec.= [COLOR=870052]10mA/10mA, [COLOR=00256E]5mA/V/5mA/V @ 250/-2[/COLOR][/COLOR]*
> ...




Umm I would look that both channel are balanced within ~10% otherwise you will start to get a louder channel. And then I would try to get the highest reading you can get. To me the 1st tube of that list is the worst and the 3rd is the best compromise by looking at those numbers...


----------



## gug42

Thank you for your analyses and explanation  really helpfull ! 

I buy the third for less than 20€. not a baf price i suppose.
Of course worst than 2 6n6p for less than 15 

Thx agains


----------



## gug42

Eric, 
If you past here  for review link 

By the way i ve searching philips tube made in holland 12AU7 or 12Ax7 .... Really expensive


----------



## gug42

nwavesailor said:


>




Thank you well expensive tube


----------



## nwavesailor

Yes, Holland production Amperex / Philips 12AU7 tubes cost a bit, but boy do they sound great!


----------



## gug42

Well at the point am I,  did you recommand 12AU7 or 12Ax7 (ecc83) or 12AT7(ecc81) from  Amperex?
  
 Regards,


----------



## nwavesailor

gug42 said:


> Well at the point am I,  did you recommand 12AU7 or 12Ax7 (ecc83) or 12AT7(ecc81) from  Amperex?
> 
> Regards,


 

 I have only heard the Amperex 12AU7 (ecc82) not the 12AT7 or 12AX7.


----------



## gug42

Ok thx 
  
 And any opinion about new tubes like thoses :
https://www.thomann.de/gb/ecc_83_vacuum_tubes.html
  
 Par exemple : TAD RT001 Tube ECC83; 12AX7A-C/
https://www.thomann.de/gb/tad_rt001_roehreecc83_12ax7ac.htm


----------



## nwavesailor

gug42 said:


> Ok thx
> 
> And any opinion about new tubes like thoses :
> https://www.thomann.de/gb/ecc_83_vacuum_tubes.html
> ...


 

 Bad link


----------



## gug42

Modify previous post with "link" options
  
 Well from the official site :
http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_TAD_Premium_Tubes_TAD_Pre_Amp_Tubes_SELECTED/12AX7A_C_ECC83_TAD_Premium_Selected_7025_12AX7WA_E83CC_391
  
  
 Or something new like this Harma Valves / ECC83-HARMA RETRO :
http://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=2152


----------



## gug42

Sorry for spamming, another questions,
  
 Any opinion about Amperex Bugle Boy Holland 6DJ8 ECC88 ? 
 less expensive ..


----------



## nwavesailor

gug42 said:


> Modify previous post with "link" options
> 
> Well from the official site :
> http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_TAD_Premium_Tubes_TAD_Pre_Amp_Tubes_SELECTED/12AX7A_C_ECC83_TAD_Premium_Selected_7025_12AX7WA_E83CC_391
> ...


 

 I am pretty sure these options are current production tubes from China or Russia.
  
 You really want older NOS tubes or used that test nicely. We all want to spend as little money as possible for great tubes but, unless you fall into a screaming deal, you gotta pay for good tubes.
  
 Have you read Joe's Tube Lure on Audio Asylum? He gives you his take on 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308, 12AU7, 12AX7 varieties
  
http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html


----------



## nwavesailor

gug42 said:


> Sorry for spamming, another questions,
> 
> Any opinion about Amperex Bugle Boy Holland 6DJ8 ECC88 ?
> less expensive ..


 

 From my days chasing 6DJ8's, most of what I read regarding the 'Bugle Boy' branding was that it was just marketing. They most always sell at a premium and are identical to other tubes produced during the same time w/o the BB branding on the glass.
  
 Side note: the Bugle Boy name was sold and now more recent production tubes are marked 'Bugle Boy'! It can be a tube mine field out there, particularly on E-Bay.


----------



## gug42

nwavesailor said:


> I am pretty sure these options are current production tubes from China or Russia.
> 
> You really want older NOS tubes or used that test nicely. We all want to spend as little money as possible for great tubes but, unless you fall into a screaming deal, you gotta pay for good tubes.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you for your advice and the link !
 Well I'm agree to pay a minimal but not some crazy price (from my point of view) I v seen 
  
 Thank you for the link, i will read it carefully !
  
  


nwavesailor said:


> From my days chasing 6DJ8's, most of what I read regarding the 'Bugle Boy' branding was that it was just marketing. They most always sell at a premium and are identical to other tubes produced during the same time w/o the BB branding on the glass.
> 
> Side note: the Bugle Boy name was sold and now more recent production tubes are marked 'Bugle Boy'! It can be a tube mine field out there, particularly on E-Bay.


 
  
 That was my impression too ...
 Well for now i'm looking for 12ax7 made in holland ... whatever the formal supplier (they seems to have a good printer with many suppliers templates .
 There is some phillips and Miniwatt Dario available.
  
 What s your point about 6DJ8 ?
  
 Regards


----------



## nwavesailor

> Originally Posted by *gug42* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> What s your point about 6DJ8 ?


 
 The 'Bugle Boy' logo on a Amperex tube does not denote a higher quality tube, just labeled with a cute tube blowing a bugle.
  
 I'm sure others will say the Bugle Boy versions are better, but another tube made in the same facility during the same time,w/o the BB branding on the tube should be just as good. 
  
 Be SURE it is Holland production AND has the sideways diamond to prove it, not just the printing on the tube. (Made in Holland, Made in Great Britain, etc.)


----------



## gug42

Hello,
  
 I really search on evry image on ebay ... but i never see this logo ... even with the more expensive one
 Can you help me with an exemple plz ?


----------



## nwavesailor

gug42 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I really search on evry image on ebay ... but i never see this logo ... even with the more expensive one
> Can you help me with an exemple plz ?


 

 Google: 'Bugle Boy tube logo' and you'll see lots of pics


----------



## gug42

I was talking about that dam sideways diamond ... never found it
 I must be bling ... evryone seems to know where it is


----------



## nwavesailor

It is etched (very small) on the side of the tube near the bottom.
  
 Do a search for etched codes on amperex tubes.
  
 It looks like a 4 but it is a triangle


----------



## ericr

For @gug42:
  
http://oldstockaudio.blogspot.com/2010/05/12bh7-listening-test.html


----------



## nwavesailor

ericr said:


> For @gug42:
> 
> http://oldstockaudio.blogspot.com/2010/05/12bh7-listening-test.html


 

@gug42 has PLENTY of homework, reading and tube researching to do now!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## gug42

Hello 

Thank you all for links and explanation ! 
 Lots of reading to do : cool for cold night 

Regards,


----------



## gug42

Hello,
  
 I've read about 12bh7  and lots of information from this thread and "tubes thread".
 I will read joes tubes faq 
  
 By the way I find the tubes market is already a f...ing mines field ... so a litttle bit more doesn't change anything for me 
  
 So from my readings, i have bought somes tubes :
 - 6NP6 gold pin russia export versions 70's
 - 12AT7 Mullard B with 4,9 / 4,9
 - 12bh7/12bh7a Eh Gold Electro Harmonix
 - Sylvania US 12BH7 2 Black Oval Plate Top
  
 And well i'd like to by other references :
 - Amperex 12ax7 from holland / heeren
 - Phillips 12at7 from good years
  
  
 I post this, if people like me are searching somes tubes. I can post link to ebay if some people wants.
  
 Regards,


----------



## nwavesailor

gug42 said:


> So from my readings, i have bought somes tubes :
> - 6NP6 gold pin russia export versions 70's
> - 12AT7 Mullard B with 4,9 / 4,9
> - 12bh7/12bh7a Eh Gold Electro Harmonix
> - Sylvania US 12BH7 2 Black Oval Plate Top


 
  
 You may find that these 4 tubes 'flavors' will be enough for you!
  
 Personally, I have too many tubes..........


----------



## gug42

You probably right ! But when i can test something and do some easy custom ... I do 
  
 By the way : is  philipps 12ax7 from holland/heeren can be as good as Amperex  ?  Or so little change better to go directly to amperex ...
  
 thank you !
  
 Regards,


----------



## nwavesailor

gug42 said:


> You probably right ! But when i can test something and do some easy custom ... I do
> 
> By the way : is  philipps 12ax7 from holland/heeren can be as good as Amperex  ?  Or so little change better to go directly to amperex ...
> 
> ...


 

 If you can find a Philips branded, made in Holland, 12AX7 it is likely the same as the Amperex branded tube made at the same plant at the same time. Just different markings (Amperex / Philips) on the tube. You may save some real $$$ buying the Philips marked tube over the identical Amperex.


----------



## gug42

Hello,
  
 Thx for your quick answer : no money saving ... but wall maybe more sure about the sources .... that's all
  
 Well good advice, i will get 12ax7 from holland and stop here !  
  
 Thax all


----------



## jaywillin

the sunrise is on it's way back to me (power switch and jack both replaced)
 jeremy received it on monday, it shipped back to me yesterday, 
 and since the warranty is transferable , i only paid for shipping there. 
 can't beat that with a stick, awesome service !


----------



## HOWIE13

jaywillin said:


> the sunrise is on it's way back to me (power switch and jack both replaced)
> jeremy received it on monday, it shipped back to me yesterday,
> and since the warranty is transferable , i only paid for shipping there.
> can't beat that with a stick, awesome service !


 
 That's good news
  
 Jeremy has always given awesome service!


----------



## gug42

Nice  Good thing to know !
  
 Sorry, i will ask again about tubes, can you help : the seller/dealer tell me, the right tube, is a philips 12ax7 from Holland Heeren. 
 Is there  somehing to coroborate this statement ?


  
   
 

 Thx !


----------



## nwavesailor

gug42 said:


> Nice  Good thing to know !
> 
> Sorry, i will ask again about tubes, can you help : the seller/dealer tell me, the right tube, is a philips 12ax7 from Holland Heeren.
> Is there  somehing to coroborate this statement ?
> ...


 

 Yes, it be a real Made in Holland Philips production 12AX7. Ask the seller if there is the sideways triangle etching in the glass to confirm true Holland production.


----------



## gug42

Thx  !
 He says me there is the heelren triangle so ... i will try. Did you find that 60$ is ok ?


----------



## nwavesailor

I'm out of the market for 12AX7 Philips / Amperex tubes so I have no idea of fair pricing. If it is NOS with good tester readings it doesn't sound too $$$.
  
 Do an E-bay 'sold listing' and see what the going rate has been lately for that specific tube.
  
 Also check Tube World and Brent Jesse for the absolute real deal tubes but at a high cost.


----------



## svmusa

Any thoughts on using Ember 2 purely as a preamp for stereo listening? which tubes have been more geared for preamp use in your expereince? 
  
 Music would be mostly instrumental, Jazz, fusion and some vocals mix. I love tube sound and lean on good bass impact, the gear is modest, SMSL M8 DAC and the preamp will be feeding a Monoprice 11497 300 Watts 2 Channel Amplifier to a pair BIC RTR-EV15 Floor Speaker with High-Efficienc​y Horn Tweeter.


----------



## gug42

I see that 12at7 and 12ax7 aren't compatible with schiit warhammer Mjolnir 2 
  
 By the way anyone try the "fake" LISST tube ??


----------



## nwavesailor

gug42 said:


> I see that 12at7 and 12ax7 aren't compatible with schiit warhammer Mjolnir 2
> 
> By the way anyone try the "fake" LISST tube ??


 

 gug42, You must have bought some tube by now. What tubes do you like, or perhaps don't like, at this point in your Ember?


----------



## gug42

Well I'm waiting for some big stars in tube rolling ... so a little bit too  soon.
 Surely i can post some comparative next month (take some times to tests ... and by the way I'm waiting for a socket saver tooà
  
 For now I preferer 6N23P from VOSKHOD made in  1978 with a silver shield. The most deepfull, warm and detail that I ve got. (A bit too more bassy for th-x00 by the way).


----------



## HOWIE13

gug42 said:


> I see that 12at7 and 12ax7 aren't compatible with schiit warhammer Mjolnir 2
> 
> By the way anyone try the "fake" LISST tube ??


 
  
     Surely this should be on the Mjolnir2 thread.


----------



## gug42

yes ?


----------



## HOWIE13

gug42 said:


> yes ?


 
  
 Yes what?  I'm more confused by you now.


----------



## gug42

I simply ask if someone try the schiit LIIST "pseudo tubes" with project ember, that's all


----------



## husafreak

I got the impression when I was amp shopping that the Ember was one of, if not, the best for accepting a large variety of tubes and allowing you to plug and play them. That sold me because I wanted to roll tubes.


----------



## HOWIE13

gug42 said:


> I simply ask if someone try the schiit LIIST "pseudo tubes" with project ember, that's all


 
  
 It's an interesting concept.
  
 I've not read about anyone using these tubes in G1217 amps and there's a warning in the link below about them not being suitable for non-Schiit amps.
  
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/complete-schiitshow#XUWkSbSBGiTQ4zCl.97
  
  
 You could ask Schiit and G1217 too if they can answer your question.


----------



## jellofund

Me neither.
  
 Someone asked a similar question on the DIYAH forums a while back. This was the response from Frans (the Ember's designer):
  


> The LISST is designed for a higher voltage rail (Schiit amps work on much higher tube voltage rails) and because of the way the heater section is designed and have no idea if that voltage is used as well for something it is highly likely it won't work.
> 
> Before the Polaris was designed my goal was to make a 'FET based' tube replacement for G1217 amps but because of the different voltages and other issues I ran in to it was decided to make the Polaris instead which is not based on compromises I would otherwise have to make.
> This was mainly because I wanted to keep the design simple.
> ...


----------



## HOWIE13

jellofund said:


> Me neither.
> 
> Someone asked a similar question on the DIYAH forums a while back. This was the response from Frans (the Ember's designer):


 
 You have a better memory than me, Mark!
  
 I had a vague recollection that Frans had commented about this sometime in the distant past, but would never have remembered from where, though I should have guessed it was on DIYAH.  Thanks.


----------



## jellofund

howie13 said:


> You have a better memory than me, Mark!
> 
> I had a vague recollection that Frans had commented about this sometime in the distant past, but would never have remembered from where, though I should have guessed it was on DIYAH.  Thanks.


 

 I wish that was true Howard. My mind is like a sieve these days!!
  
 I actually thought it was me that had asked Frans the question. Turns out it was someone else!


----------



## HOWIE13

jellofund said:


> I wish that was true Howard. My mind is like a sieve these days!!
> 
> I actually thought it was me that had asked Frans the question. Turns out it was someone else!


 
 HAHA. Well where does that leave me? Ready for the Care Home I suspect. LOL


----------



## gug42

Thank you. So well he's thinking there is a low chance to work. But nobody try


----------



## Tunkejazz

gug42 said:


> Thank you. So well he's thinking there is a low chance to work. But nobody try



I guess people don't try that option because it converts your new tube amp into a 'compromised' solid state amp...it is kind of the wrong approach. For that I have a Polaris


----------



## gug42

For sure, you r right


----------



## husafreak

I had the Ember and Polaris myself. But then (in a moment of weakness) succumbed to the charms of the Cavalli Liquid Carbon. I think I will always keep both a tube and solid state headphone amp. In this case I made a gift of the Polaris to a dear friend and kept the LC. I still love the Ember and I'm not really interested in beating that. Other fish to fry! I miss the Diyah boards now... having the designers posting regularly there was a treat!


----------



## mapotofu

My first experiment with tube rolling on the Ember -- replaced the stock RCA cleartop 12AU7 with an Amperex Holland 7062 which in my understanding is a lower gain and longer life version of a 12AT7.  Happy to report an improvement in SQ with smoother mids and more overall gain.


----------



## Astral Abyss

mapotofu said:


> My first experiment with tube rolling on the Ember -- replaced the stock RCA cleartop 12AU7 with an Amperex Holland 7062 which in my understanding is a lower gain and longer life version of a 12AT7.  Happy to report an improvement in SQ with smoother mids and more overall gain.


 
  
 I've never tried that tube, but I love the 12AU7 so I'm going to have to look into it.  I really enjoy tube rolling and this little amp makes it fun and relatively inexpensive.


----------



## nwavesailor

I saw this pair of Brimar 6J5G on E-Bay. I have plenty of tubes so I'm not going to snag these, but this seems to be a pretty good deal if someone is looking for a pair used / tested 6J5G's
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/322434703055?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## Tunkejazz

Those were very close to the Visseaux if I remember correctly...


----------



## gug42

Hello 

Anyone tried the mullard reissue cv4004 ? 

I have an old one that i really like ... 

But the tube does lots of cracking noise when i move the volume... ( i fear imminent death ? )
and the price for NOS on ebay are ... Hum really high ( i got mine in a pack  )


----------



## HOWIE13

gug42 said:


> Hello
> 
> Anyone tried the mullard reissue cv4004 ?
> 
> ...


 
 I would be concerned by the imminent death of your headphone. Maybe best to disconnect and not use that tube again.
  
 Might just be vol pot noise but I personally wouldn't risk it.
  
 Check pins are clean and making good contact in the socket as well.
  
 Sorry all my thoughts are coming out backwards this morning.


----------



## gug42

Really  ? death of headphones ? 
 I will check contact and test with an another tube.
  
 Well so if some have experiences with reissue series ?


----------



## HOWIE13

gug42 said:


> Really  ? death of headphones ?
> I will check contact and test with an another tube.
> 
> Well so if some have experiences with reissue series ?


 
  
   If  cracking  only occurs when you move the vol pot it may just be noise from DC leakage from the tube but that in itself is far from ideal. I've found this more commonly on      higher gain types of tube using Ember.
  
  More worrying is if a faulty tube arcs and sends DC though to your headphone. I've lost two drivers that way.
  
  By and large higher gain tubes create more noise in my experience.
  
  If it still cracks after you have checked the contacts and invoked Ember's input capacitor and resistor setting, which eliminates the noise of tube DC leakage,  then I  personally wouldn't use it.


----------



## gug42

Indeed it's only cracking when I move the volume pot.
  
 I'm in low ouput impedence capacity and perhaps by passing input capacitor.
  
 By the way, bad news ... i really like this mullard cv4004 ... but dont want to shoot my headphone (he 500 )
  
 Thx


----------



## HOWIE13

gug42 said:


> Indeed it's only cracking when I move the volume pot.
> 
> I'm in low ouput impedence capacity and perhaps by passing input capacitor.
> 
> ...


 
 If the noise goes away completely when you invoke the input capacitor and resistor then you should be okay. No guarantees but probably alright.
  
 I would also advise you check with Jeremy to see if he has any thoughts, as he may know that particular tube and whether there's been any problems with it and what he thinks about you using it.


----------



## gug42

Ok thank you, help really appreciate 
  
 No cracking noise with input capacitor when I move the plot.
 And without input capacitor (bypass mode), the cracking level depends on the output impedance.
  
 I will folow your advice and ask jeremy  (first time for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )
  
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## Astral Abyss

gug42 said:


> Ok thank you, help really appreciate
> 
> No cracking noise with input capacitor when I move the plot.
> And without input capacitor (bypass mode), the cracking level depends on the output impedance.
> ...


 
  
 Sounds like it's working as intended.  I got a bad tube in the mail once that had a short in it.  Damn near blew up my headphones.  It was pretty obvious that something was wrong.


----------



## gug42

Well thx !
  
 Not so bad. I take the "risk".
  
 By the way, any recommendation about recent tubes productions ? JJ, Tung-Sol, Mullard reissue, Sovtek, electro-harmonix ?
 I found this :
 https://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech-corner/12ax7-comparison-current-made-tubes
  
 Regards,


----------



## gug42

Answear from jeremy, thx to him a real nice person 


> When you bypass the input capacitors, it lets a tiny amount of DC reach the volpot - this causes the scratch and is normal. It will not hurt anything. Also, this is noted in the manual


----------



## HOWIE13

gug42 said:


> Answear from jeremy, thx to him a real nice person


 
 Yes Jeremy's support is awesome, he's a great guy.
 Now you will enjoy your favourite tube all the more for knowing it's safe to use.


----------



## gug42

oh yeah 
  
 By the way, without input capacitor (by pass capacitor settings), i found there is a little more deeper bass and a little bit of details.
  
 Regards,


----------



## HOWIE13

gug42 said:


> oh yeah
> 
> By the way, without input capacitor (by pass capacitor settings), i found there is a little more deeper bass and a little bit of details.
> 
> Regards,


 
 There's been a fair amount of discussion about this in the past without any definite conclusion.
 For my ears, bypassing the input capacitors (my earlier version of Ember doesn't have a resistor bypass) does marginally increase clarity, but it's only when I'm concentrating very hard to compare the sounds one immediately after the other that I can discern any very slight difference.


----------



## gug42

Agree, the diffence is tight 
  
 By the way, anyone know how mullard cv4024 sounds  ?


----------



## westermac

Hey guys, just bought a v2 in the FS section and am excited to give it a go with my LCD-X. I already have some 6DJ8/6922's on hand from a previous amp, as well as some 5670, 6n3p and a pair of 6SN7.

My question is, does the Ember v2 automagically adjust for different tubes' heater voltages etc or are some adjustments required when rolling between different tube families? Obviously the 5670/6n3p require and adapter (which I have) as well as the 6SN7 which I need an adapter for, I'm just not clear on what adjustments if any need to be made to support these tubes. Thanks in advance


----------



## ericr

Yes, it will adjust automatically to a wide variety of dual triode tubes (but not just anything, of course).

The manual has a long list of compatible tubes:

http://www.garage1217.com/MANUALS/

I've not heard of anyone using the 5670 family. Customer service at garage1217 is excellent and would know if they are safe to try. 

Let us know the answer on the 5670 if you ask.

Which 6SN7 do you have? They typically sound very good.


----------



## westermac

ericr said:


> Yes, it will adjust automatically to a wide variety of dual triode tubes (but not just anything, of course).
> 
> The manual has a long list of compatible tubes:
> 
> ...




Thanks for the resource! I will ask about the 5670 and let you know.

I believe my 6SN7 pair are Sylvania brown base 6SN7WGT... Left over from a WA6 I owned but never got around to buying adapters for. Maybe they're decent, no idea!


----------



## ericr

Be sure to give the Sylvanias a try - they should be pretty good!


----------



## nwavesailor

westermac said:


> Thanks for the resource! I will ask about the 5670 and let you know.
> 
> I believe my 6SN7 pair are Sylvania brown base 6SN7WGT... Left over from a WA6 I owned but never got around to buying adapters for. Maybe they're decent, no idea!


 

 The 5670, if it will work in the Ember w/ adapter, sounds like it might be a nice tube!
  
 Have you seen the 5670 thread here on HeadFi?


----------



## westermac

nwavesailor said:


> The 5670, if it will work in the Ember w/ adapter, sounds like it might be a nice tube!
> 
> Have you seen the 5670 thread here on HeadFi?


 

 Yeah I hope so; I'll definitely be checking that thread out! I really like the idea of only having to roll a single tube... all of a sudden my existing pairs have doubled in life


----------



## nwavesailor

Please post your impressions of the 5670 in the Ember w/ adapter!


----------



## westermac

Alright, so I've only been able to listen for a few hours so these are very early impressions. The only tube I've tried so far is the GE black plate 5670, and for the most part it sounds great! Good detail and soundstage, and no channel imbalance. The drawbacks for me so far with this tube in the Ember v2 (w/LCD-X) is that there seems to be a bit of peakyness or zing to the treble, maybe around 12kHz or so. This works great with some recordings back can be a bit harsh with others. Also it's quite microphonic, as even touching the volume knob results in a sound. Neither the treble peak nor the microphonics were an issue for me with the Mjolnir 2, so either the Ember just doesn't play quite as well with this tube or they need some time to settle in. Time will tell. For the time being I do have some other 6DJ8/6922's to try, and have a Telefunken 12AU7 on the way to compare.


----------



## nwavesailor

westermac said:


> Alright, so I've only been able to listen for a few hours so these are very early impressions. The only tube I've tried so far is the GE black plate 5670, and for the most part it sounds great! Good detail and soundstage, and no channel imbalance. The drawbacks for me so far with this tube in the Ember v2 (w/LCD-X) is that there seems to be a bit of peakyness or zing to the treble, maybe around 12kHz or so. This works great with some recordings back can be a bit harsh with others. Also it's quite microphonic, as even touching the volume knob results in a sound. Neither the treble peak nor the microphonics were an issue for me with the Mjolnir 2, so either the Ember just doesn't play quite as well with this tube or they need some time to settle in. Time will tell. For the time being I do have some other 6DJ8/6922's to try, and have a Telefunken 12AU7 on the way to compare.


 

 I think you will find a lot to like with 6DJ8 / 6922's, particularly if they are Ampererx/Philips 'Made in Holland' production. The 12AU7 should be nice as well although I have not heard a real Tele.
  
 What I read, regarding the 5670's, was it was very difficult to find 1 that was NOT quite microphonic. What 5670 are you using?


----------



## DavidA

nwavesailor said:


> I think you will find a lot to like with 6DJ8 / 6922's, particularly if they are Ampererx/Philips 'Made in Holland' production. The 12AU7 should be nice as well although I have not heard a real Tele.
> 
> What I read, regarding the 5670's, was it was very difficult to find 1 that was NOT quite microphonic. What 5670 are you using?


 
 I had a lot of channel imbalance with 6dj8/6922 tubes (tried the many pairs I have for my Lyr2) but none were microphonic and haven't had any problems with 12AU7/12AX7 so far out of the 40 or so that I have.


----------



## westermac

davida said:


> I had a lot of channel imbalance with 6dj8/6922 tubes (tried the many pairs I have for my Lyr2) but none were microphonic and haven't had any problems with 12AU7/12AX7 so far out of the 40 or so that I have.


 

 Yeah, unfortunately that seems to be the case with all of my 6DJ8/6922's as well... with my 5670's the center image is perfect but with every single 6DJ8/6922 I've tried it skews to the right... not terribly, but enough to bother me. It's a shame because I was hoping to be all set with my tubes on hand, and it looks like I'll need to stick with my 5670's until I've acquired some 12AU7/12AX7. Any recommendations on more affordable ones (less than $50/each)? I have a Telefunken 12AU7 that should keep me happy for the time being.


----------



## DavidA

westermac said:


> Yeah, unfortunately that seems to be the case with all of my 6DJ8/6922's as well... with my 5670's the center image is perfect but with every single 6DJ8/6922 I've tried it skews to the right... not terribly, but enough to bother me. It's a shame because I was hoping to be all set with my tubes on hand, and it looks like I'll need to stick with my 5670's until I've acquired some 12AU7/12AX7. Any recommendations on more affordable ones (less than $50/each)? I have a Telefunken 12AU7 that should keep me happy for the time being.


 
 I haven't bought tubes for a while now, probably due to the fact that I have too many and the current prices are so high these days, more so for the 6jd8/6922 family but the 12XXX has also gone up a lot over the last few years.
  
 As for recommendations, try a Bugle Boy, or some of the new Electro Harmonix, Gold Lion, or Mullard, they will be a nice compliment to the Telefunken.


----------



## nwavesailor

westermac said:


> Yeah, unfortunately that seems to be the case with all of my 6DJ8/6922's as well... with my 5670's the center image is perfect but with every single 6DJ8/6922 I've tried it skews to the right... not terribly, but enough to bother me.


 
 YIKES!
  
 I now need to listen to see if I hear an imbalance using my 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308. If it is there, I suppose I will hear it, unless it is very subtle and my 'less than golden ears' can't detect it.
  Most of the 6DJ8 family of tubes I own test pretty closely plate to plate so I will see.
  
 I do have some Amperex 12AU7 that sound very good as well as 6SN7, 6F8G, 6J5G and 6C5G w/ adapters. Too many tubes...............too little time!


----------



## westermac

nwavesailor said:


> YIKES!
> 
> I now need to listen to see if I hear an imbalance using my 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308. If it is there, I suppose I will hear it, unless it is very subtle and my 'less than golden ears' can't detect it.
> Most of the 6DJ8 family of tubes I own test pretty closely plate to plate so I will see.
> ...


 

 Haha too true. I do have a 6SN7 adapter coming for a pair of Sylvania 6SN7WGTA that I have; very curious to hear those. Will try to keep my focus narrowed down to a few tube types for the forseeable future; just looked at the manual and was absolutely overwhelmed with the list of supported tubes


----------



## Astral Abyss

westermac said:


> Haha too true. I do have a 6SN7 adapter coming for a pair of Sylvania 6SN7WGTA that I have; very curious to hear those. Will try to keep my focus narrowed down to a few tube types for the forseeable future; just looked at the manual and was absolutely overwhelmed with the list of supported tubes


 
  
 and that list doesn't even have them all... there's quite a few more with adapters.  It's madness.


----------



## nwavesailor

westermac said:


> Haha too true. I do have a 6SN7 adapter coming for a pair of Sylvania 6SN7WGTA that I have; very curious to hear those. Will try to keep my focus narrowed down to a few tube types for the forseeable future; just looked at the manual and was absolutely overwhelmed with the list of supported tubes


 

 That's a good idea to limit the madness. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Truth be told I have found most tubes I tried to be OK with some mo' betta than the others. A lot of personal preferences as well.


----------



## mapotofu

Let the tube rolling begin!


----------



## nwavesailor

mapotofu said:


> Let the tube rolling begin!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DavidA

mapotofu said:


> Let the tube rolling begin!


 

 ​Might want to get some Deoxit for cleaning the pins if you haven't already done so


----------



## nwavesailor

davida said:


> ​Might want to get some Deoxit for cleaning the pins if you haven't already done so


 

 Yep on Deoxit, but go light on anything applied to tube pins............a little is good, a lot is not!


----------



## mapotofu

Thanks, guys, for the suggestion.  I recently got introduced to deoxit for cleaning my mmcx connectors which did wonders for my Shure IEMs and cables.  I never thought I would need them for tubes.
  
 This is my first go at tube headphone amps but I have never had to deoxidize the pins for my guitar amps. Will give it a try.


----------



## westermac

Just to clarify (I'm still new to this) the Ember II does NOT require an adapter for 12AU7/ECC82's correct? I was excited to receive a strong-testing Tektronics Telefunken 12AU7 from a well rated seller and low and behold all I get with it is a ground hum, with no music (the tube isn't lighting up either). Other tubes I've tried (6DJ8, 6922, 6FQ7, 5670) have all functioned properly, is this just a dud or is there something wrong with with my amp?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## nwavesailor

westermac said:


> Just to clarify (I'm still new to this) the Ember II does NOT require an adapter for 12AU7/ECC82's correct? I was excited to receive a strong-testing Tektronics Telefunken 12AU7 from a well rated seller and low and behold all I get with it is a ground hum, with no music (the tube isn't lighting up either). Other tubes I've tried (6DJ8, 6922, 6FQ7, 5670) have all functioned properly, is this just a dud or is there something wrong with with my amp?
> 
> Thanks!


 

 Yes, 12AU7 is fine w/o an adapter. Your photo shows other 12A versions. Did they light up and work?. No tube 'glow' (heaters) is a bad tube.


----------



## westermac

That's not my photo from earlier, this is the first 12A tube that I've tried (guess I'll have to get my hands on another to be absolutely sure). Thanks for the confirmation though, I appreciate it!
  
 EDIT: So this is a strange development, I went back to the original eBay listing to check the sellers return policy, and to my dismay he sells all tubes as-is with no returns. For the heck of it I put the tube back in, flipped the switch and it started lighting up! Sure enough, it works now and sounds great. Maybe a bad seating/connection? The pins are a bit oxidized but not too bad, I guess I'll have to give them a good cleaning. Whew*


----------



## nwavesailor

westermac said:


> That's not my photo from earlier, this is the first 12A tube that I've tried (guess I'll have to get my hands on another to be absolutely sure). Thanks for the confirmation though, I appreciate it!


 

 DOAH!!!!!!!
  
 Sorry westermac, it was mapotofu's photo with the 5, 12A versions.
  
 It does look like you have a bad tube, though.


----------



## nwavesailor

westermac said:


> That's not my photo from earlier, this is the first 12A tube that I've tried (guess I'll have to get my hands on another to be absolutely sure). Thanks for the confirmation though, I appreciate it!
> 
> EDIT: So this is a strange development, I went back to the original eBay listing to check the sellers return policy, and to my dismay he sells all tubes as-is with no returns. For the heck of it I put the tube back in, flipped the switch and it started lighting up! Sure enough, it works now and sounds great. Maybe a bad seating/connection? The pins are a bit oxidized but not too bad, I guess I'll have to give them a good cleaning. Whew*


 

 Good to see that it fired up for you and now sounds great!


----------



## HOWIE13

I always avoid sellers who refuse returns.


----------



## ericr

+1


----------



## westermac

howie13 said:


> I always avoid sellers who refuse returns.


 

 Yeah... lesson learned. Going to make sure of that next time


----------



## DruidxEFD

New Head-Fi'er here. I've been lurking here for quite a while reading everyone's posts. I'll let these pictures do the talking. (Try to ignore the ugliness of the room.)
  

  

  

  
 With my HE400i's I had settled on the Zenith 6J5G tubes, but after my ZMF Blackwoods arrived I found them too dark. I switched in a newly arrived Ken-Rad 6F8G and I could hear so many more details in the music. As the both the tube and headphones have burned in the synergy has only become better. Now the the headphones have some good burn-in I should switch the Zenith tubes back in and see if anything has changed.


----------



## nwavesailor

druidxefd said:


> New Head-Fi'er here. I've been lurking here for quite a while reading everyone's posts. I'll let these pictures do the talking. (Try to ignore the ugliness of the room.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I also use a Ken-Rad 6F8G round plate (or a Tung Sol 6F8G) and find it to be a very nice tube overall with good detail. Like yourself, I find I need to use a Faraday cage with this tube as well as the Visseaux 6J5G pair but find it worth the effort!  I spend more time with these 2 combos than most other tube options and enjoy them both.


----------



## ericr

The Sylvania 6SN7W is the tube that (thankfully) brought my nearly obsessive Ember tube rolling to a very pleasant halt.

This leads me to wonder if any of you who are rolling adapters (and related tubes) have given the 6SN7W a try, and if so, how does it compare to the 6F8G or the FrankenEmber setups?


----------



## DruidxEFD

ericr said:


> The Sylvania 6SN7W is the tube that (thankfully) brought my nearly obsessive Ember tube rolling to a very pleasant halt.
> 
> This leads me to wonder if any of you who are rolling adapters (and related tubes) have given the 6SN7W a try, and if so, how does it compare to the 6F8G or the FrankenEmber setups?


 
 That's one of the tubes that I never picked up. I think it came down to picking between that and a Sylvania 6SN7GT "Bad Boy", since they're both expensive, and I went with the latter when I found one for $75. I also have two Sylvania 6SN7GTA and GTB "Chrome Dome" tubes and those are nice also, though not as good as a Bad Boy, and not as expensive. 
  
 So I can't really compare except to tell you that the usual difference that I've found is that for whatever reason, larger tubes seem to have a larger soundstage. Also, both my Zenith 6J5G tubes and my Ken-Rad 6F8G have better bass quantity and quality than all my Sylvania 6SN7 tubes with the exception of the Bad Boy which can hold it's own in that category.
  
 The headphone also is a huge factor. The Ken-Rad was instant bliss the minute I paired it with the Blackwood, but I couldn't stand more than 10 minutes with the HE400i. The treble was just too sharp, although maybe that has changed with some tube burn-in. I'll need to try it again.


----------



## DruidxEFD

nwavesailor said:


> I also use a Ken-Rad 6F8G round plate (or a Tung Sol 6F8G) and find it to be a very nice tube overall with good detail. Like yourself, I find I need to use a Faraday cage with this tube as well as the Visseaux 6J5G pair but find it worth the effort!  I spend more time with these 2 combos than most other tube options and enjoy them both.


 
 When you say "or a Tung Sol 6F8G" do you mean that the Ken-Rad is a re-branded Tung Sol tube, or that you have a separate Tung Sol tube that you also use? If the latter, would you mind comparing the two?


----------



## nwavesailor

ericr said:


> The Sylvania 6SN7W is the tube that (thankfully) brought my nearly obsessive Ember tube rolling to a very pleasant halt.
> 
> This leads me to wonder if any of you who are rolling adapters (and related tubes) have given the 6SN7W a try, and if so, how does it compare to the 6F8G or the FrankenEmber setups?


 

 I have tried and used some 6SN7's: Sylvania (not the so called 'Bad Boys') RCA clear, RCA smoked glass, KenRad clear and smoked, Raytheon and GE. They have all sounded fine, some better than others.
  
 I just prefer the 6F8G and 6J5's (French Visseaux) but couuld easily live with most or any of the 6SN7's, many 6DJ8/6922/7308 and 12A versions as well.


----------



## nwavesailor

druidxefd said:


> When you say "or a Tung Sol 6F8G" do you mean that the Ken-Rad is a re-branded Tung Sol tube, or that you have a separate Tung Sol tube that you also use? If the latter, would you mind comparing the two?


 

 I was fortunate enough to snag some Tung Sol and KenRad 6F8G round plates before they (the TS) were going for crazy $$$.
  
 I have not done an A/B for some time but found them pretty close in SQ.
 I see your Faraday cage is copper foil. I took the cheap and easy route and went with basic fencing material and wire ties for my cage! It does, however, work as intended.


----------



## nwavesailor

> So I can't really compare except to tell you that the usual difference that I've found is that for whatever reason, larger tubes seem to have a larger soundstage. Also, both my Zenith 6J5G tubes and my Ken-Rad 6F8G have better bass quantity and quality than all my Sylvania 6SN7 tubes with the exception of the Bad Boy which can hold it's own in that category.


 
  
 Yes, you and some others in earlier Ember Tube Rolling posts have speculated that the size of the tube (envelope) may be a factor in influencing the soundstage and bass response. I honestly can't put my finger on exactly _why_ I prefer the 6F8G or 6J5G pair...............there is just more there there with these 2 tubes. If I could only choose 1 option, I would opt for the Visseaux 6J5G pair.............there is just something magical about those puppies that I really love!


----------



## DruidxEFD

nwavesailor said:


> Yes, you and some others in earlier Ember Tube Rolling posts have speculated that the size of the tube (envelope) may be a factor in influencing the soundstage and bass response. I honestly can't put my finger on exactly _why_ I prefer the 6F8G or 6J5G pair...............there is just more there there with these 2 tubes. If I could only choose 1 option, I would opt for the Visseaux 6J5G pair.............there is just something magical about those puppies that I really love!


 
 I would totally have a Visseaux pair myself, but since I was so late to the game the price now is absurd. I pulled the trigger on the Zenith instead, although I hear the Visseaux has more clarity, which I dig. I just can't justify spending that much on a pair of tubes. C'est la vie.


----------



## DruidxEFD

nwavesailor said:


> I was fortunate enough to snag some Tung Sol and KenRad 6F8G round plates before they (the TS) were going for crazy $$$.
> 
> I have not done an A/B for some time but found them pretty close in SQ.
> I see your Faraday cage is copper foil. I took the cheap and easy route and went with basic fencing material and wire ties for my cage! It does, however, work as intended.


 
 Your cage looks nice!
  
 I just don't have the patience for crafting stuff. I got my cage to the point it was functional and called it good. I'll get some laughs if I take mine to a meet.


----------



## nwavesailor

druidxefd said:


> I would totally have a Visseaux pair myself, but since I was so late to the game the price now is absurd. I pulled the trigger on the Zenith instead, although I hear the Visseaux has more clarity, which I dig. I just can't justify spending that much on a pair of tubes. C'est la vie.


 

 Yeah, like a lot of tubes after some hype, they are going for too much $$$ now!!!


----------



## Astral Abyss

druidxefd said:


> I would totally have a Visseaux pair myself, but since I was so late to the game the price now is absurd. I pulled the trigger on the Zenith instead, although I hear the Visseaux has more clarity, which I dig. I just can't justify spending that much on a pair of tubes. C'est la vie.




I like my National Union 6J5G's and Tung Sol VT-94A's better than my Visseaux 6J5G. But they're all really good. You don't need the Visseaux to get that great 6J5G sound.

I've been eyeing some Raytheon and Sylvania 6J5WGT metal bases to do some experimentation. Probably soon...

I also have a pair of Tung Sol 6C5G's, the ones with the foil shields, and they are really excellent sounding. Very clear sound with good bass and smooth mids, but they have that hum like the 6F8G does and I don't have a cage for my Ember.


----------



## DruidxEFD

I also have a Ken-Rad 6C8G VT-163 coming sometime next week. I'll let you know how that sounds once it arrives and gets some burn-in. I should try 6C5G's as well. What adapter do they need?


----------



## nwavesailor

druidxefd said:


> I also have a Ken-Rad 6C8G VT-163 coming sometime next week. I'll let you know how that sounds once it arrives and gets some burn-in. I should try 6C5G's as well. What adapter do they need?


 
  
 Sorry, I jumped in too soon...........the 6C5G take the same adapter as the 6J5G.
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Dual-6J5G-6C5G-VT-94-CV1932-L63-VR67-TO-ECC88-6922-tube-converter-adapter-/201458214762


----------



## nwavesailor

astral abyss said:


> I like my National Union 6J5G's and Tung Sol VT-94A's better than my Visseaux 6J5G. But they're all really good. You don't need the Visseaux to get that great 6J5G sound.
> 
> I've been eyeing some Raytheon and Sylvania 6J5WGT metal bases to do some experimentation. Probably soon...
> 
> I also have a pair of Tung Sol 6C5G's, the ones with the foil shields, and they are really excellent sounding. Very clear sound with good bass and smooth mids, but they have that hum like the 6F8G does and I don't have a cage for my Ember.


 
 AA, you can build the cage for less than $5 of screening and a handful of wire ties!

 The NU 6J5G round plate can still be had for way less than the Tung Sol version.
  
 The 6C8G's are (for now) still sleepers as everyone is hunting for the 6F8G's. If you have an extra $2,000 you can own a stash of 100 TS 6C8G!!!
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/100pcs-lot-6C8G-TUNG-SOL-round-plate-black-coated-glass-Amplitrex-Tested-/192105040264?hash=item2cba5a4988:g:akcAAOSwMVdYGwF8


----------



## ericr

DruidxEFD

Any chance you'll be coming to the Seattle spring meet? It's at Bottlehead's facility.


----------



## DruidxEFD

I saw that, but I'm not sure yet. Kind of hoping there will be a Portland meet this year.


----------



## ericr

Yeah, it would make for a long day for you. Let me know if you happen to decide to come. You have some cool old old tubes and I have cool old tubes (6SN7W & Tung-Sol black round plates). It would be fun to swap for the afternoon.


----------



## nwavesailor

astral abyss said:


> I like my National Union 6J5G's and Tung Sol VT-94A's better than my Visseaux 6J5G.
> 
> I've been eyeing some Raytheon and Sylvania 6J5WGT metal bases to do some experimentation. Probably soon...


 
  
 I see the metal base 6J5GT are still inexpensive compared to the 6J5G. Do I really _need_ more tubes when so many I already own sound so good?


----------



## mandrake50

nwavesailor said:


> astral abyss said:
> 
> 
> > I like my National Union 6J5G's and Tung Sol VT-94A's better than my Visseaux 6J5G.
> ...


 

 A completely rational answer is, NO !




  
 But this hobby/compulsion cannot in any way be labeled as rational. I swore when I got my first Sunrise III that I would not get into the tube buying death spiral. Well 50 tubes later...and getting an Ember to make it easier. I guess that I failed at that pledge to myself.
  
 I guess 50 is a low number compared to some, but when I look at my box of tubes, most of which that never get used.. I look in the mirror and ask myself... why are you so strange!


----------



## DruidxEFD

astral abyss said:


> I've been eyeing some Raytheon and Sylvania 6J5WGT metal bases to do some experimentation. Probably soon...


 
  
 Might be a good test too to see if the soundstage with the 6SN7 sized 6J5WGT tubes shrinks at all compared to the larger coke bottle 6J5G tubes.


----------



## nwavesailor

mandrake50 said:


> A completely rational answer is, NO !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well mandrake50, I KNOW I can quit anytime I want..............just..............need ...............1 more....................


----------



## Astral Abyss

nwavesailor said:


> I see the metal base 6J5GT are still inexpensive compared to the 6J5G. Do I really _need_ more tubes when so many I already own sound so good?


 
  
 This is the dilemma I deal with daily.
  
  


druidxefd said:


> Might be a good test too to see if the soundstage with the 6SN7 sized 6J5WGT tubes shrinks at all compared to the larger coke bottle 6J5G tubes.


 
  
 Yes, this is what I want to find out.  I just need to find some at the right price to experiment with so that I won't be upset if they end up not being anything special.
  
  
 In other news, just bought an $8 1955 Tung Sol 6SN7GT (my favorite 6SN7 tube) off ebay.  It's the one that came out after they dropped the mouse ears but is still the same construction and awesome sound.  Guy claims it is 100%/95%.  That's a real score if true and it's not noisy.


----------



## nwavesailor

astral abyss said:


> In other news, just bought an $8 1955 Tung Sol 6SN7GT (my favorite 6SN7 tube) off ebay.  It's the one that came out after they dropped the mouse ears but is still the same construction and awesome sound.  Guy claims it is 100%/95%.  That's a real score if true and it's not noisy.


 
  
 $8 for a 50's TS 6SN7GT is a very nice snag! Here's hoping it is quiet and in the acceptable range for microphonics.


----------



## DruidxEFD

My Ken-Rad 6C8G arrived. Some quick impressions that you can take with a grain of salt as it's not burned-in yet.
  
 It's surprisingly similar to my 6F8G. Nice soundstage, bass and clarity. If I still think the same thing after extended listening and burn-in, it will become my main tube because I DON'T HAVE TO USE THE DAMN CAGE!!
  
 Sorry, got a little excited there. But this is seriously my first coke bottle tube that doesn't have any hum.


----------



## nwavesailor

astral abyss said:


> I like my National Union 6J5G's and Tung Sol VT-94A's better than my Visseaux 6J5G. But they're all really good. You don't need the Visseaux to get that great 6J5G sound.
> 
> I've been eyeing some Raytheon and Sylvania 6J5WGT metal bases to do some experimentation. Probably soon...
> 
> I also have a pair of Tung Sol 6C5G's, the ones with the foil shields, and they are really excellent sounding. Very clear sound with good bass and smooth mids, but they have that hum like the 6F8G does and I don't have a cage for my Ember.


 

 Astral Abyss, I already have the Fivre 6C5G and Visseaux 6J5G's and like them both. If I  was_ 'thinking' _of buying another 6J5G or 6C5G pair, would I find the TS 6C5G, TS 6J5G (VT-94) or NU 6J5G a nice addition to the other 2 I already like and use? I understand that MMMV!
  
 I certainly don't _need _another pair of tubes with 6SN7, 6F8G, 12A, and 6DJ8 (6922, 7308)..................just curious 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 EDIT: I found British made (for the RAF) oval plate NOS Brimar 6J5G / STCF 101 are available from a couple of sellers for about $60 / pair shipped. Last year these Brimars were going for $120 a pair at the peak of the Visseaux madness!


----------



## Astral Abyss

nwavesailor said:


> Astral Abyss, I already have the Fivre 6C5G and Visseaux 6J5G's and like them both. If I  was_ 'thinking' _of buying another 6J5G or 6C5G pair, would I find the TS 6C5G, TS 6J5G (VT-94) or NU 6J5G a nice addition to the other 2 I already like and use? I understand that MMMV!
> 
> I certainly don't _need _another pair of tubes with 6SN7, 6F8G, 12A, and 6DJ8 (6922, 7308)..................just curious


 
  
 Yes, I like them all.  
  
 The problem with the NU 6J5G is that there seems to be many different designs and the ones I have appear to be from the 1930s.  I also don't know if NU did rebranding of these tubes, or if they bought and rebranded other tubes as their own, but I have seen other tubes that look identical to theirs.  One other problem you're going to have is the NUs are almost never available as a matched pair, so you'll have to really dig or buy singles and try to match the plate types and output levels yourself.
  
 When I get home tonight I'll take a couple pics of my NUs so you can see what the plate structure looks like.  If you can find some that look like mine, buy them.  They sound better than the Visseaux, IMO.  I can't vouch for the other NUs.
  
 I feel like the NUs have a lush sound to them, so keep that in mind.  Mine take a while to warm up.  They sound like crap at first.  
  
 The TS have their typical sound from that time period.  Clear highs, good bass and midrange.


----------



## nwavesailor

astral abyss said:


> Yes, I like them all.
> 
> The problem with the NU 6J5G is that there seems to be many different designs and the ones I have appear to be from the 1930s.  I also don't know if NU did rebranding of these tubes, or if they bought and rebranded other tubes as their own, but I have seen other tubes that look identical to theirs.  One other problem you're going to have is the NUs are almost never available as a matched pair, so you'll have to really dig or buy singles and try to match the plate types and output levels yourself.
> 
> ...


 

 Great.......... I'll be curious to see the plate structure of your version of the NU 6J5G.
 I seem to find various tubes on my search list with straight 'ladder' plates or 'oval' (round) plates. I just found your old post and pics from July where you snagged the NOS Tung Sol 6J5G and they are a 'ladder' plate.
  
 I am currently using AQ Nighthawks and more detail vs. a more lush sound may be where I want to go. The Brimar 6J5's may also have the lush polite British sound, I'm not sure.
  
 Thank you, AA!


----------



## nwavesailor

Any impressions from Ember owners who have used Brimar 6J5G tubes in their amp? 
  
 I did have a pair about a year ago and only gave them an unfair 15 minutes before going back to the Visseaux and returning the Brimars.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Last year Brimar's cost about $120 a pair. The market seems to have corrected and they are now available for roughly 1/2 that cost or $60 /pair.
  
 I already own Vissuaux 6J5G and Fivre 6C5G but would like to hear what others who have owned or auditioned the Brimar 6C5G's think about their sound.


----------



## DruidxEFD

Well so much for the Ken-Rad 6C8G. On closer listen there is some distortion that kind of makes the mid-bass into the mids sound scratchy, for lack of a better word. I put the Ken-Rad 6F8G back in and there was no contest.
  
 The good news is that I found that the hum with the 6F8G and the dual 6J5G is gone now! I just bought a Schiit Bifrost Multibit it's the only new part of the chain. Could a better DAC solve tube hum problems?


----------



## Astral Abyss

druidxefd said:


> Well so much for the Ken-Rad 6C8G. On closer listen there is some distortion that kind of makes the mid-bass into the mids sound scratchy, for lack of a better word. I put the Ken-Rad 6F8G back in and there was no contest.
> 
> The good news is that I found that the hum with the 6F8G and the dual 6J5G is gone now! I just bought a Schiit Bifrost Multibit it's the only new part of the chain. Could a better DAC solve tube hum problems?




Try it again after a warm-up. I've found tubes with a lot of distortion on first listen that I thought were no good. After pulling them out and then trying them again later, they sounded perfect. My National Union 6J5Gs and my Tung Sol VT-94A's were both that way. They're my favorite tubes now.


----------



## DruidxEFD

astral abyss said:


> Try it again after a warm-up. I've found tubes with a lot of distortion on first listen that I thought were no good. After pulling them out and then trying them again later, they sounded perfect. My National Union 6J5Gs and my Tung Sol VT-94A's were both that way. They're my favorite tubes now.


 
  
 This was after burning it in all day while I was at work. In your experience, how long would you burn in a new tube before giving up it?


----------



## DruidxEFD

Speaking to those of you that have 6C5G tubes, which would you buy?
  
 This set of Zenith tubes: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-x-6C5g-Zenith-Tubes-Strong-Testing-Mesh-Plates-Engraved-Bases-/371910679572?hash=item56979a9c14:g:2OIAAOSwSlBYuyKn
  
 Or two of these Fivre tubes plus shipping from Italy: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-6C5G-6C5GT-FIVRE-NOS-ITALY-Tube-Valvula-Rohre-Valve-Lampe-TSF-Valvola-/401285617163?hash=item5d6e7c960b:g:zzsAAMXQysxR~oBR


----------



## Astral Abyss

druidxefd said:


> This was after burning it in all day while I was at work. In your experience, how long would you burn in a new tube before giving up it?




I think it has more to do with powering them on and off. At least give it a shot before you give up on them.


----------



## Astral Abyss

druidxefd said:


> Speaking to those of you that have 6C5G tubes, which would you buy?
> 
> This set of Zenith tubes: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-x-6C5g-Zenith-Tubes-Strong-Testing-Mesh-Plates-Engraved-Bases-/371910679572?hash=item56979a9c14:g:2OIAAOSwSlBYuyKn
> 
> Or two of these Fivre tubes plus shipping from Italy: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-6C5G-6C5GT-FIVRE-NOS-ITALY-Tube-Valvula-Rohre-Valve-Lampe-TSF-Valvola-/401285617163?hash=item5d6e7c960b:g:zzsAAMXQysxR~oBR




I've heard good things about both.


----------



## nwavesailor

druidxefd said:


> Speaking to those of you that have 6C5G tubes, which would you buy?
> 
> This set of Zenith tubes: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-x-6C5g-Zenith-Tubes-Strong-Testing-Mesh-Plates-Engraved-Bases-/371910679572?hash=item56979a9c14:g:2OIAAOSwSlBYuyKn
> 
> Or two of these Fivre tubes plus shipping from Italy: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-6C5G-6C5GT-FIVRE-NOS-ITALY-Tube-Valvula-Rohre-Valve-Lampe-TSF-Valvola-/401285617163?hash=item5d6e7c960b:g:zzsAAMXQysxR~oBR


 

 I bought a quad of the Fivre 6C5G from that E-seller. They were pretty closely matched and sound very nice. The Zenith has 2 of the 3 that are fairly close tube to tube but all 3 aren't at all bad by any means.
  
 With the Fivre tubes you get OEM box and cool stickers showing taxes paid (the Italians can even make a tax sticker look like art!)  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




......not that the box or stickers have ANY bearing on the sound.............just part of the visuals!


----------



## Astral Abyss

nwavesailor said:


> Great.......... I'll be curious to see the plate structure of your version of the NU 6J5G.
> I seem to find various tubes on my search list with straight 'ladder' plates or 'oval' (round) plates. [COLOR=0000CD]I just found your old post and pics from July where you snagged the NOS Tung Sol 6J5G and they are a 'ladder' plate.[/COLOR]
> 
> I am currently using AQ Nighthawks and more detail vs. a more lush sound may be where I want to go. The Brimar 6J5's may also have the lush polite British sound, I'm not sure.
> ...




Apologies for the delay in the pics. Also, please excuse my poor photography skills.





Details on the date codes are difficult to impossible to find for the National Union tubes, but from my searching, this CC tube is likely a 1939. My other is a DN, likely from 1940.


----------



## Astral Abyss

By the way, that $8 TS 6SN7GT? Perfect. Talk about a deal.


----------



## nwavesailor

astral abyss said:


> Apologies for the delay in the pics. Also, please excuse my poor photography skills.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Cool!
  
 The pics really show the plates and top mica.
  


astral abyss said:


> By the way, that $8 TS 6SN7GT? Perfect. Talk about a deal.


 
  Yep, nice find for $8!!!


----------



## DruidxEFD

nwavesailor said:


> I bought a quad of the Fivre 6C5G from that E-seller. They were pretty closely matched and sound very nice. The Zenith has 2 of the 3 that are fairly close tube to tube but all 3 aren't at all bad by any means.
> 
> With the Fivre tubes you get OEM box and cool stickers showing taxes paid (the Italians can even make a tax sticker look like art!)
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks! I got the Fivre, in more ways than one.


----------



## nwavesailor

druidxefd said:


> Thanks! I got the Fivre, in more ways than one.


 

 Very cool!


----------



## Tunkejazz

In case anyone is on the hunt for Visseaux...
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-of-Visseaux-Vacuum-Tubes-Type-6J5G-/272621179445?hash=item3f797d1235:g:G0EAAOSwA29Y5oCK


----------



## nwavesailor

tunkejazz said:


> In case anyone is on the hunt for Visseaux...
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-of-Visseaux-Vacuum-Tubes-Type-6J5G-/272621179445?hash=item3f797d1235:g:G0EAAOSwA29Y5oCK


 

 I just bought a pair of 6P5G from this E-Bay seller & they should arrive Monday.
  
 I saw these listed but already have V's.


----------



## Tunkejazz

Yeah, I also have already a good pair of Visseaux. But to be honest with the HD650 (+ Kameleon filter), I find myself using more often the Ken-Rad 7193's or my Sylvania Bad Boy than the Visseaux.


----------



## nwavesailor

tunkejazz said:


> Yeah, I also have already a good pair of Visseaux. But to be honest with the HD650 (+ Kameleon filter), I find myself using more often the Ken-Rad 7193's or my Sylvania Bad Boy than the Visseaux.


 

 I am intrigued by the Kameleon filter but have not seen my hp listed, AQ Nighthawks.
  
 Between the Vissuaeux 6J5G, Fivre 6C5J, NU 6F8G and various 6 volt 9 pin & 12A versions, I am thrilled with the sound even w/o an additional Garage 1217 upgrade. I'll be looking forward to giving the Super Silvertone 6P5G's a listen early next week to see how they sound!


----------



## Tunkejazz

nwavesailor said:


> I am intrigued by the Kameleon filter but have not seen my hp listed, AQ Nighthawks.
> 
> Between the Vissuaeux 6J5G, Fivre 6C5J, NU 6F8G and various 6 volt 9 pin & 12A versions, I am thrilled with the sound even w/o an additional Garage 1217 upgrade. I'll be looking forward to giving the Super Silvertone 6P5G's a listen early next week to see how they sound!


 
  
 Those tubes you have are very special. Also not so many people have tried the 6F8/6C8 tubes and they are very good, in many cases better than the similar 6SN7. Did you ever try the Frankember? I have re-discovered it recently, and it gives the largest soundstage of all my tubes, it is almost ridiculous!  At 10 bucks per piece is quite a nice sounding tube. Bass can be a bit overwhelming with certain types of music though.
  
 I got one of the Kameleon prototypes from the designer, relatively cheap with two filter modules included. The effect is remarkable in my opinion. People may think that I am trying to justify my investment (150 EUR with the two filter modules), but the truth is that it has a much stronger effect (for good!) than (changing) tubes can possibly provide. I cannot listen to my HD650 unfiltered anymore, there is something missing in the bass without the filter. The Garage 1217 version is admittedly a bit on the expensive side though.


----------



## nwavesailor

tunkejazz said:


> Those tubes you have are very special. Also not so many people have tried the 6F8/6C8 tubes and they are very good, in many cases better than the similar 6SN7. Did you ever try the Frankember? I have re-discovered it recently, and it gives the largest soundstage of all my tubes, it is almost ridiculous!  At 10 bucks per piece is quite a nice sounding tube. Bass can be a bit overwhelming with certain types of music though.
> 
> No, I have not tried the 7193 "Franken-tubes". I would need a 'Franken' adapter to give them a try. I'll see what the 6P5G'ssound like as I can use the same adapter as the 6J5 and 6P5 & 6L5. Some of the folks who used to be regulars here are now over at the Feliks Elise or Euforia sites and seem to enjoy these tubes in that amp as well as the Ember!
> 
> ...


----------



## DavidA

nwavesailor said:


> I am intrigued by the Kameleon filter but have not seen my hp listed, AQ Nighthawks.
> 
> Between the Vissuaeux 6J5G, Fivre 6C5J, NU 6F8G and various 6 volt 9 pin & 12A versions, I am thrilled with the sound even w/o an additional Garage 1217 upgrade. I'll be looking forward to giving the Super Silvertone 6P5G's a listen early next week to see how they sound!


 
 I tried a friends Nighthawks a few weeks ago and found them quite nice but a little to polite for me with the Ember but with a brighter amp like the Asgard2 it was quite good.


----------



## nwavesailor

davida said:


> I tried a friends Nighthawks a few weeks ago and found them quite nice but a little to polite for me with the Ember but with a brighter amp like the Asgard2 it was quite good.


 

 I agree that with the OEM hybrid pads, that may have been on the original NH you tried, are WAY too polite! I was going to return my pair of NH until I tried the 2 other AQ pads, Protein Leather (aka Boost) and Microsuede (aka ultrasuede)...............Those pads turned the NH into keepers for me with a much needed degree of clarity and detail. It really brought them to life.
  
 In the past week I have used dual Fivre 6C5G, National Union 6F8G and tonight back to the dual Visseaux 6J5G after not using the V's for a few months. I needed to switch back to the Protein Leather pads as they were actually too bright for me using the Microsuede pads and dual V's.
  
 The current Nighthawk Carbon (and NightOwl) ship with these 2 new pads so they knew they needed a change from the original version pads.


----------



## DavidA

nwavesailor said:


> I agree that with the OEM hybrid pads, that may have been on the original NH you tried, are WAY too polite! I was going to return my pair of NH until I tried the 2 other AQ pads, Protein Leather (aka Boost) and Microsuede (aka ultrasuede)...............Those pads turned the NH into keepers for me with a much needed degree of clarity and detail. It really brought them to life.
> 
> In the past week I have used dual Fivre 6C5G, National Union 6F8G and tonight back to the dual Visseaux 6J5G after not using the V's for a few months. I needed to switch back to the Protein Leather pads as they were actually too bright for me using the Microsuede pads and dual V's.
> 
> The current Nighthawk Carbon (and NightOwl) ship with these 2 new pads so they knew they needed a change from the original version pads.


 
 Wish I knew about the pads before


----------



## Tunkejazz

nwavesailor said:


> I may send the folks at Garage 1217 an email and inquire about using the Kameleon with the Nighthawks.


 
 You may want to contact solderdude (on diyah.boards.net), he took measurements using my HE400i and made the filter for it. 
 He designed the Kameleon inline filter and many G1217 amps.


----------



## nwavesailor

tunkejazz said:


> You may want to contact solderdude (on diyah.boards.net), he took measurements using my HE400i and made the filter for it.
> He designed the Kameleon inline filter and many G1217 amps.


 

 Thanks Tunkejazz!


----------



## Andrew Rieger

Anyone try the ZMF Atticus or Eikon with the Project Ember 2?


----------



## ericr

Never heard of them. I had to do some research to learn they are headphones.

Some were impressed by them at Canjam Socal.

Do you own them? Or have you heard them?


----------



## DruidxEFD

andrew rieger said:


> Anyone try the ZMF Atticus or Eikon with the Project Ember 2?


 
  
 I've heard of some people using them with the Sunrise, so I'd be surprised if the Ember was a bad match. In general, the Atticus is supposed to be pickier than the Eikon about what amps pair best. Also, many say that the absolute best match is an OTL amp.
  
 I'm in the same boat as you, I think. One of those two will be my next headphones. I just need to hear them first and restrain my hand from reaching for my wallet until that happens.


----------



## ericr

andrew rieger said:


> Anyone try the ZMF Atticus or Eikon with the Project Ember 2?




Hopefully one or will be at the Seattle Spring meet early next month and I can give them a listen with the Ember.

If so, I'll post my impressions here.


----------



## Astral Abyss

ericr said:


> Hopefully one or will be at the Seattle Spring meet early next month and I can give them a listen with the Ember.
> 
> If so, I'll post my impressions here.


 
  
 I could try my Ember 2 with my Eikon.  My guess is that since the Ember handles the HD650 and HD800 so well that it will handle the Eikon just as well.  So far, I've only used the Eikon with Ragnarok... which is an incredible combo.


----------



## nwavesailor

tunkejazz said:


> In case anyone is on the hunt for Visseaux...
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-Pair-of-Visseaux-Vacuum-Tubes-Type-6J5G-/272621179445?hash=item3f797d1235:g:G0EAAOSwA29Y5oCK


 

 Just received a pair of Super Silvertone 6P5G from this E-Bay seller that has the pair of used 'V's for sale.
  
 The tubes were nicely packed and results on my 2 testers confirmed similar readings (close enough) as was advertised in the listing.


----------



## Tunkejazz

I am having an unexpected good experience with a Raytheon VT231 that I bought long time ago. At the time I thought it lacked bass, but after listening to it with kameleonized HD650, the result is outstanding. There is plenty of deep clean bass. I suspect the headphones I used in the past rolled the bass too early and I did not appreciate it.


----------



## nwavesailor

tunkejazz said:


> I am having an unexpected good experience with a Raytheon VT231 that I bought long time ago. At the time I thought it lacked bass, but after listening to it with kameleonized HD650, the result is outstanding. There is plenty of deep clean bass. I suspect the headphones I used in the past rolled the bass too early and I did not appreciate it.


 
  
 Yes, these Raytheon 6SN7 / VT-321 _are _great sounding tubes! This version has some added support rods (very quiet) and the anchor on the base, made for the US Navy.
  
 These are my go to 6SN7's.
  

  
 My favorites tubes for the Garage 1217 amp (in no particular order) at least for NOW!
  
 Raytheon 6SN7 / VT-231
 National Union 6F8G / VT-99 (or the Tung Sol version)
 Visseaux 6J5G
 Fivre 6C5G
 Super Silvertone 6P5G (new for me yesterday)
  
 Very good but haven't used in some time:
  
 Amperex (Heerlen production) 6DJ8 / 6922 / 7308 and 12AU7
  
 I have some National Union NOS 6L5G arriving today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 so we'll see how they sound............


----------



## Astral Abyss

nwavesailor said:


> Yes, these Raytheon 6SN7 / VT-321 _are_ great sounding tubes!This version has some added support rods (very quiet) and the anchor on the base, made for the US Navy.
> 
> These are my go to 6SN7's.
> 
> ...




The Raytheon are really excellent. I'm surprised more people aren't interested in them. The normal 6SN7GT is just as good as the VT-231. Make sure you get the one with the thin black plates (like in the pic). The other version isn't as good.


----------



## Tunkejazz

astral abyss said:


> The Raytheon are really excellent. I'm surprised more people aren't interested in them. The normal 6SN7GT is just as good as the VT-231. Make sure you get the one with the thin black plates (like in the pic). The other version isn't as good.



Yeah, that is exactly the one I have


----------



## husafreak

Now I have to check which 6SN7 variant I have. VT-231 doesn't ring a bell... But the one I have is my favorite single tube source. Mostly listening to two tube setup now.


----------



## husafreak

What is a pair of Visseaux tubes worth anyway?


----------



## Tunkejazz

husafreak said:


> What is a pair of Visseaux tubes worth anyway?


 

 I bought mine for 30 GBP per tube. Not cheap but not the worst


----------



## husafreak

Thanks!


----------



## Tunkejazz

Many people in this thread bought them from the same seller (I think I bought the last pair). After that, it has been harder to find a decently priced pair, but sometimes they pop up on eBay.


----------



## HOWIE13

tunkejazz said:


> Many people in this thread bought them from the same seller (I think I bought the last pair). After that, it has been harder to find a decently priced pair, but sometimes they pop up on eBay.


 
 Yep just looked up my eBay purchasing history-August 2015 I bought the first pair for use in Ember for £60. Two to three times the price now, unfortunately.


----------



## nwavesailor

husafreak said:


> Now I have to check which 6SN7 variant I have. VT-231 doesn't ring a bell... But the one I have is my favorite single tube source. Mostly listening to two tube setup now.


 

 VT-231 is the military designation for the 6SN7.
  
 As Astral Abyss pointed out, there may _not_ be a difference between 6SN7's made at the same time, with the same construction with or w/o the VT- 321 designation.
  
 Other than looking for a pair of Visseaux 6J5G (there is a pair on E-Bay ending soon) what pairs are you using now in your Ember?
  
*EDIT: YIKES..........The pair of V's on E-Bay are now at $86.............and they don't look to be lightly used or NOS! * A rokkie bidder with a feedback of '2' is bidding up the price long before the end of the auction making it more costly in the end!
  
 I did buy a pair of tubes from this E-Bay seller last week and they were as advertised.


----------



## Tunkejazz

A friend here in Stockholm let me borrow a 6n6p-ir tube. Another great tube, much better sounding than regular 6n6p, especially in bass definition and extension. I just looked on ebay and they are relatively cheap. The advantage of these Russian tubes is that they pick very little EMI.


----------



## Tunkejazz

tunkejazz said:


> A friend here in Stockholm let me borrow a 6n6p-ir tube. Another great tube, much better sounding than regular 6n6p, especially in bass definition and extension. I just looked on ebay and they are relatively cheap. The advantage of these Russian tubes is that they pick very little EMI.


 
 Actually, I think this has become my favorite tube with the Ember, even when compared to the Visseaux. Instrument separation with the HD650 is spectacular!


----------



## husafreak

I would like to try one of those 6n6p-ir are they all the same pretty much? I don't see brands, just shipped from Russian federation or Ukraine.


----------



## dpump

Check with Jeremy at Garage1217. He sells a 6n6p with a gold grid for $19.99-may be the same tube as the ir version? I'm also curious to know if it is the same tube.


----------



## Tunkejazz

dpump said:


> Check with Jeremy at Garage1217. He sells a 6n6p with a gold grid for $19.99-may be the same tube as the ir version? I'm also curious to know if it is the same tube.


 

 No, it is not. The 6n6p is an earlier version. I used to have one but the bass was a bit too soft and undefined. The ir version keeps it very controlled. Both cost pretty much the same I believe, although I am borrowing this one at the moment from a friend.
  
 I found some impressions in one of the Little Dot threads. The wording "may" be a bit over the top for my taste, but I think overall I agree with the differences they describe between the 6n6p and the 6n6p-ir (look at post 3007):
http://www.head-fi.org/t/563884/little-dot-tube-amps-vacuum-tube-rolling-guide/3000#post_9823694
  
 Note that in that thread they describe the effect of the 6n6p-ir as a power tube...not our case anyhow.


----------



## DrWest

While I don't have an Ember. I do own a Sunrise III. My normal tube has been a 12BH7 Electro-Harmonix Gold Pin. This tube has zero background noise. Very black. 
  
 I recently grabbed a 12AX7 The Fisher. Which is made by Amperex *Philips *in their Holland plant. It sounds great but has background noise. I am wondering if any of you who have a 12AX7 Amperex Bugle Boy have any background sound issues. Debating on buying one.


----------



## Oskari

There was no _Amperex_ plant in the Netherlands. There were _Philips_ plants. Those made tubes also for Amperex, a Philips company in the US.


----------



## DrWest

Yes I noticed my mistake after posting. Thanks for correcting me. But no answer to my question?


----------



## Oskari

No worries. It's a pet peeve. :rolleyes: Others will have to answer your question.


----------



## Tunkejazz

Sorry I have not much experience with 12AX7 tubes... I tried a Russian equivalent and I felt it had too much gain for my taste. Could that be the reason why your tube is a bit noisy?


----------



## husafreak

The 6n6p I have from Jeremy may have Gold grids but they are partially covered by a grey discoloration. They also have a 1 or I followed by a pentagram and 77 below the 6n6p. Good tube. But I have others I like better.


----------



## paulc35

Have you ever used tubes in the past? I imagine the answer is no. While you may be able to detect a difference between each tube used and you should considering all the different tubes your using i.e. 12at7, 6dj8,12au7, etc. My first question is. Where did you purchase you NOS tubes? Some of the ink makes me think you may not have the real deal. 2nd. Are the tubes New (never been used)

Tubes take about 100 hrs of playing time to be properly evaluated especially many of your NOS tubes like Amperes, Radiotechnique, Mullards, Phillips of holland. It takes any tube 3 minutes to warm up so your evaluations at 10 minutes , or 30 minutes if they were new will not reveal the true nature of the tube. Hopefully that tube is actually being used in that configuration. Bravo makes a headphone amp that uses a tube, but the tube really has no impact. Good luck

Paulc


----------



## paulc35

If any of you need a recommendation on getting tubes that are the real deal the Upscale Audio is the place. Kevin Deal owner


----------



## nwavesailor

paulc35 said:


> If any of you need a recommendation on getting tubes that are the real deal the Upscale Audio is the place. Kevin Deal owner


 

 With Kevin Deal, you get what he says you are getting and yes, at top $$$! Same for Tube World and Brent Jesse IMO. Top $$$ but no bait and switch. Folk in Europe seem to find pretty good tube (valve) offerings from Langrex.
  
 I have no affiliation with any of these sellers just as a customer.


----------



## DrWest

My plan from the start was to buy from Upscale Audio ( https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/amperex-bugle-boy-12ax7-ecc83-made-in-holland?variant=22168659653 ). Saw a deal on eBay for three 12AX7s from the same plant. I figured I would test and compare them. Once I get the three from ebay two of them I could not get the bias to set under 20VDC with a multimeter. The third has a slight background static. I was just wondering if the 12ax7 amperex BB had a similar background noise. All tubes were tested/listened to after 30min of warm up time. I already contacted the eBay seller and mentioned the issues I had. Was promptly sent a full refund.


----------



## nwavesailor

drwest said:


> My plan from the start was to buy from Upscale Audio ( https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/amperex-bugle-boy-12ax7-ecc83-made-in-holland?variant=22168659653 ). Saw a deal on eBay for three 12AX7s from the same plant. I figured I would test and compare them. Once I get the three from ebay two of them I could not get the bias to set under 20VDC with a multimeter. The third has a slight background static. I was just wondering if the 12ax7 amperex BB had a similar background noise. All tubes were tested/listened to after 30min of warm up time. I already contacted the eBay seller and mentioned the issues I had. Was promptly sent a full refund.


 

 Yep, $169 (or $189) for a single 9 pin signal tube is real money.............. BUT if is is quiet and minimally micrphonic perhaps it is worth the price 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 Thankfully I needed 6DJ8, 6922, 7308's some years ago for a tubed CD player so I snagged some at way lower cost than current prices!


----------



## nwavesailor

I received a NOS pair of 1942-44 Tung Sol 6J5G VT-94A (same version as Astral Abyss) and they are very, very good.............somewhat similar and certainly on par with the Visseaux 6J5G. I have only listened to a brief session but there is a lot to like in that pair!


Yesterday I also picked up a pair of NOS GEC L63 (GT straight glass 6J5) and those are some very nice tubes as well. Not quite the sparkle and top end detail and clarity as in the V's or TS, but very smooth and easily as good or better than most any other tubes I have tried. A true sleeper IMO.


The seller is local and opened a sealed box of 100 NOS GEC's L63's while I was there. VERY cool!


----------



## Astral Abyss

nwavesailor said:


> I received a NOS pair of 1942-44 Tung Sol 6J5G VT-94A (same version as Astral Abyss) and they are very, very good.............somewhat similar and certainly on par with the Visseaux 6J5G. I have only listened to a brief session but there is a lot to like in that pair!
> 
> 
> Yesterday I also picked up a pair of NOS GEC L63 (GT straight glass 6J5) and those are some very nice tubes as well. Not quite the sparkle and top end detail and clarity as in the V's or TS, but very smooth and easily as good or better than most any other tubes I have tried. A true sleeper IMO.
> ...



Can I just say that I'm insanely jealous of you with your local tube dealer?

I had a feeling you'd like the TS 6J5G.  They'll probably get even better with a little burn-in.  I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I like mine more than the Visseaux.


----------



## nwavesailor (Apr 27, 2017)

Astral Abyss said:


> Can I just say that I'm insanely jealous of you with your local tube dealer?
> 
> I had a feeling you'd like the TS 6J5G.  They'll probably get even better with a little burn-in.  I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I like mine more than the Visseaux.




As far as the GEC L63's sound, I think that you might like them. Not lacking in detail (your Bob Dylan analogy) at all. I have only listened to the L63's for an hour or so and these are as good as most every tube I own and like. Yes, the TS are better, but if just a hair less energy on top is what you want the L63 is pretty sweet!

My problem is I want to hear _everything_ in a track I know well and the TS and V's give me that!

However, the L63, 6L5G, 6P5G, 6C5G, 6F8G are all just a bit less revealing, but long term, may be more enjoyable if I can let the obsessive analytical thing go and _just _enjoy the music.


----------



## Makiah S

Mshenay said:


> I think almost everything I have on the Starlight Hums just a little in the background [except the GE GTA 6sn7]
> 
> I just hope they bring me a nice addition of sound stage though "good, warm and sweet" are usually not my prefferance. I like the sound of my VokShod Rocket, rather hard and well spaced, my only aim for a set of Duals is to get a wider sound stage So I guess we shall see!!!



Gawd I finally found it! The tube bug has bit me again, and I'm gunning for a Sunrise III this time around, though I wanted to figure out which tubes I liked with my Starlight before getting the Sunrise! So it seems that the SunRise is pretty warm compared to the Starlight [and Ember possibly] any one have any tips for getting a REALLY nice sound stage and hard bass, with what could be a warm'r amp? 

I think I liked my VokShod Rockets for a nice hard/spacious sound. An I really remember the GE GTA 6sn7 really well, but tube wise what do you guys recommend? Also does any one with a Sunrise III, know if the smaller cut out in the plate, still allows for the bigger tube sockets,


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> As far as the GEC L63's sound, I think that you might like them. Not lacking in detail (your Bob Dylan analogy) at all. I have only listened to the L63's for an hour or so and these are as good as most every tube I own and like. Yes, the TS are better, but if just a hair less energy on top is what you want the L63 is pretty sweet!
> 
> My problem is I want to hear _everything_ in a track I know well and the TS and V's give me that!
> 
> However, the L63, 6L5G, 6P5G, 6C5G, 6F8G are all just a bit less revealing, but long term, may be more enjoyable if I can let the obsessive analytical thing go and _just _enjoy the music.



I might have to look into getting a pair of 6J5G L63 GECs


----------



## CZ4A

Mshenay said:


> Also does any one with a Sunrise III, know if the smaller cut out in the plate, still allows for the bigger tube sockets,



I'm able to use the G1217 6SN7-to-12AU7 adapter and an eBay 6F8G-to-12AU7 adapter just fine in my Sunrise. There's just barely enough clearance for the 6F8G adapter, but it does fit without rubbing on the plate. If you get the acrylic plates you can use a hole saw to enlarge the tube opening.


----------



## nwavesailor (May 1, 2017)

Mshenay said:


> Gawd I finally found it! The tube bug has bit me again, and I'm gunning for a Sunrise III this time around, though I wanted to figure out which tubes I liked with my Starlight before getting the Sunrise! So it seems that the SunRise is pretty warm compared to the Starlight [and Ember possibly] any one have any tips for getting a REALLY nice sound stage and hard bass, with what could be a warm'r amp?
> 
> I think I liked my VokShod Rockets for a nice hard/spacious sound. An I really remember the GE GTA 6sn7 really well, but tube wise what do you guys recommend? Also does any one with a Sunrise III, know if the smaller cut out in the plate, still allows for the bigger tube sockets,



Welcome back!

I am pretty sure I ended up buying your Project Starlight amp from joespride after you sold it to him.
I have upgraded the opamps to OPA 627's and mostly use either (dual pair with adapter) Visseaux or Tung Sol 6J5G, GEC L63 and Fivre 6C5G. The 6L5G and 6P5G are good as well and inexpensive!

As you already have a 6F8G adapter, the 6F8G's are great tubes........at least the round plate versions of the Tung Sol or National Union. Sine you don't need a pair, snagging a TS or NU single won't have you selling a kidney to afford one of these round plates wonders!


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> Welcome back!
> 
> I am pretty sure I ended up buying your Project Starlight amp from joespride after you sold it to him.
> I have upgraded the opamps to OPA 627's and mostly use either (dual pair with adapter) Visseaux or Tung Sol 6J5G, GEC L63 and Fivre 6C5G. The 6L5G and 6P5G are good as well and inexpensive!
> ...



I keep hearing about tung sol I really need one! I asked for a ge 6sn7 gta to get me started as I remember that one most fondly (plus its cheap) 

but what adapter do I need to run a single tung sol 6f8g and which in that family have the most sound stage and detail


----------



## nwavesailor

Sorry, it was CZ4A that had the 6F8G adapter.   As you don't have the adapter there are so many other tubes that are less $$$ than chasing the 6F8G's. The 6F8G was made before and replaced by the 6SN7.


----------



## CZ4A

Mshenay said:


> I keep hearing about tung sol I really need one! I asked for a ge 6sn7 gta to get me started as I remember that one most fondly (plus its cheap)
> 
> but what adapter do I need to run a single tung sol 6f8g and which in that family have the most sound stage and detail



T-S round plate black glass 6F8Gs have been sniffed out and prices are skyrocketing. I was _very_ lucky to find my T-S round plate 6F8G, 6SN7, and 12SN7 for the prices I paid for them, and even more so that the 6F8G was NOS and in its original military box!

I also found that with the adapter I use, the cable for the anode cap acts like an antenna. Right now the Sunrise is my work amp, and since I do computer work there's nowhere I can put the amp without it picking up some kind of EMI. I can't use the 6F8G in my other amps either, so they've been sitting idle in my stash.

Shame because I have 3 6F8Gs (Raytheon, RCA, T-S) and two 6C8Gs (Sylvania, National Union), and I liked all of them except the RCA. Again, I haven't listened to them in a while, but I remember the 6F8Gs sounding like their 6SN7 counterparts but with more sound stage. The 6C8Gs are their own beasts, since their gain is between 6SN7 and 6SL7.


----------



## nwavesailor

Without this $3 Faraday cage, most of my dual tubes w/ adapter & the TS or NU 6F8G would not work w/o a lot of noise. With the cage...............quiet  

A small section of fencing material and some wire ties.


----------



## CZ4A

A Faraday cage is interesting but I don't think it's practical for work, lol! I'll make one for the Sunrise the next time I bring it home.


----------



## nwavesailor

A Faraday cage is interesting but I don't think it's practical for work, lol! I'll make one for the Sunrise the next time I bring it home. 

"Psst, take a look at the chicken wire cage he's got over those glowing tubes!!!"   

Yeah, they could be talkin about ya with a cage over your amp..............


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> Without this $3 Faraday cage, most of my dual tubes w/ adapter & the TS or NU 6F8G would not work w/o a lot of noise. With the cage...............quiet
> 
> A small section of fencing material and some wire ties.


dude that's brilliant. I'm so happy to see my lil starlight in a faraday cage 

also I just went ahead and bought the Ember, I think the Sunrise would have been too warm for my taste's honestly 

Might as well get what I REALLY want and be done with it! Now I just need a REALLY AMAZING Octal,


----------



## Makiah S (May 2, 2017)

Actually I'm just going to try the Electro Harmonix 6SN7, I ordered them from Tube Depot with Extra Low Noise and Balanced Triodes, came out to be like $26 they actually charged me LESS for shipping than amazon! AND they could ship it faster than buying from Amazon!!! So all in all, I've got 14 days to decide if I like it or not, and if I hate it it's easy enough to return! 

Going to give them a shot and see what I think, Adhoc seemed to recommend them on his 6sn7 thread, and for the price I figured why not!! I should get the amp and the tube around the same time, so I'll let you guys know what I think

I was going to by myself another GE 6SN7 GTA, but as many have mentioned it lacks a little in low level detail. I remember that much about it, great sound though. Here's to hoping the Electro Harmonix 6SN7 is really nice and open! Some people complain that it can be a little bright so that's good!!


----------



## nwavesailor (May 3, 2017)

Mshenay said:


> dude that's brilliant. I'm so happy to see my lil starlight in a faraday cage
> 
> also I just went ahead and bought the Ember, I think the Sunrise would have been too warm for my taste's honestly
> 
> Might as well get what I REALLY want and be done with it! Now I just need a REALLY AMAZING Octal,



Yes, your Starlight was a nice upgrade from my Vali 2, even more so after trying various opamps before settling on OPA 627's.

Good to hear you snagged the Ember!


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> Yes, your Starlight was a nice upgrade from my Vali 2, even more so after trying various opamps before settling on OPA 627's.
> 
> Good to hear you snagged the Ember!



Dear Gawd I'm putting your quote in my Vali vs Starlight review!  Jeremy will be elated to hear that, but those were my thoughts as well.  Honestly the Vali is a good place to start, but for the money, the starlight is the better amp, but it's harder to use correctly! 

An thanks, I've got both the Electro Harmonix 6sn7 and the Gold Pin 6sn7 from them in bound to me, so I'm going to compare the two of those New Production tubes, and keep the best. Then find the BEST Old Stock tube I can for around the same price, and compare it.


----------



## nwavesailor (May 4, 2017)

Dear Gawd I'm putting your quote in my Vali vs Starlight review! Jeremy will be elated to hear that, but those were my thoughts as well. Honestly the Vali is a good place to start, but for the money, the starlight is the better amp, but it's harder to use correctly!

I did like the Vali 2 and it sounded pretty good.............but when Joespride and I were horse trading tubes, he offered me your 'old' Starlight for about what I ended up selling my Vali 2 for so it was a sideways move.
 Howie13 also had a Starlight and Vali 2 and though I'd like the Starlight as it was way more versatile than the Vali 2. It only took SECONDS playing the first track to know it was a better amp for me than the Vali 2. Howard (Howie 13) had keep notes of his impressions of various opamps he had tried in the Starlight.  I had some opamps from my work in audio, bought some more and found the opamps Jeremy shipped with the Starlight were very good. The only ones that were, IMO, a good deal better were OPA 627 using a single to dual opamp adapter. Real OEM OPA 627 opamps are not inexpensive, and there are fakes all over the place, but if you get them from a known OEM supplier like Mouser or Digikey they are 'real' and sound glorious!!!

I now use an Oppo HA2-SE (line out) as a DAC into the Starlight and with good tube(s) it is a killer combination!!!

I solder for work all day long and Jeremy's PCB's and soldering are top notch, great work!


----------



## Makiah S (May 4, 2017)

Nice! Well I'm getting ready to start an Electrical Engineering Technology program here in the fall, and I kinda feel like I really can't be a true student of electronics without a tube!!! Plus, exactly that when I start learning to solder my self, I'd like to be able to look and see what proper technique looks like.  Don't tell any one but, I'd like to be doing what Jeremy does in 5-6 years, even if only for my self ^^

Still, my Ember will be to me tomorrow [Friday]!!! So I'm excited, and I'm hoping those new stock production tubes impress me in the Ember...

I almost though, bought an original Lyr before I decided on the Ember. Really, the lack of space is why I choose not to... has any one compared the Ember II to the Lyr v1?


----------



## Astral Abyss

Mshenay said:


> Nice! Well I'm getting ready to start an Electrical Engineering Technology program here in the fall, and I kinda feel like I really can't be a true student of electronics without a tube!!! Plus, exactly that when I start learning to solder my self, I'd like to be able to look and see what proper technique looks like.  Don't tell any one but, I'd like to be doing what Jeremy does in 5-6 years, even if only for my self ^^
> 
> Still, my Ember will be to me tomorrow [Friday]!!! So I'm excited, and I'm hoping those new stock production tubes impress me in the Ember...
> 
> I almost though, bought an original Lyr before I decided on the Ember. Really, the lack of space is why I choose not to... has any one compared the Ember II to the Lyr v1?



I had a Lyr 2 that I sold and got the Ember II instead.  The Lyr  is a decent amp, but nothing special, and it always sounded a bit bright to me.  The tubes for it are expensive and they don't make as much of an impact on the sound as the tube in the Ember does.  The Ember is way more versatile, basically a tube rollers dream, and even its pre-out does a great job at adding some tube sound to a SS amp.


----------



## Makiah S (May 4, 2017)

Astral Abyss said:


> I had a Lyr 2 that I sold and got the Ember II instead.  The Lyr  is a decent amp, but nothing special, and it always sounded a bit bright to me.  The tubes for it are expensive and they don't make as much of an impact on the sound as the tube in the Ember does.  The Ember is way more versatile, basically a tube rollers dream, and even its pre-out does a great job at adding some tube sound to a SS amp.



I figured as much about the Lyr 2, as it's a lot "cleaner" than the original Lyr, not to mention it has only the two tubes.

I'm still curious about the Val-Hala, and thank you @Astral Abyss


----------



## Astral Abyss

Mshenay said:


> I figured as much about the Lyr 2, as it's a lot "cleaner" than the original Lyr, not to mention it has only the two tubes.
> 
> I'm still curious about the Original Lyr, it took 4 tubes and when it first launched people LOVED it with Planars! Tons of power and tubey goodness. I remember spending days reading through those threads, people rolled all KINDS of crazyness into that amp, the Original Lyr... I highly doubt Jason will send me one his old Lyr's to compare agains't the Ember II. Dollar for Dollar, the Vali did not compete well with the Starlight. An I don't have the funds to buy a couple of sets of Matched Pairs for the Lyr



Are you sure you're not thinking of the Valhalla?


----------



## Makiah S

Astral Abyss said:


> Are you sure you're not thinking of the Valhalla?



Herp Derp, yea the Valhalla is the 4 tube'd one isn't it :/


----------



## Andrew Rieger

Anyone compare the Project Ember 2 to the Schiit Jotenheim?


----------



## Makiah S

That's a hard one to do, Joten is a Dac Amp, though I tried to get a demo from Jason to compare again'st the JDS Labs Element this week... 

still if I ever hear back from them, I might have a chance to compare them. But still, I don't think their in the same market... Jot is a nice little Balanced Dac/Amp for right around $500, which is only $100 away from the cost of my AUdio GD NFB 10ES2, where as the Ember is a Hybrid Tube amp.


----------



## DavidA

Andrew Rieger said:


> Anyone compare the Project Ember 2 to the Schiit Jotenheim?



My short experience with the Jot left me with the impression that its a little on the bright side from what I would like.  I only tried my HD800 and HE560 with the Jot and I didn't care for it, a touch too bright for me.  The Jot is a little brighter than the Lyr2 to me but it does pair with the HE560 a little better than the Ember but with the HD800 its a bit too bright.  There are just a few amps that I've tried that do well with both HD800 and HE560, Liquid Glass, Liquid Carbon, Hugo/Hugo TT, Darkstar, Polaris and HA-501.


----------



## nwavesailor (May 5, 2017)

"Still, my Ember will be to me tomorrow [Friday]!!! So I'm excited, and I'm hoping those new stock production tubes impress me in the Ember..."

Mshenay, please post your impressions when your Ember ll and tube(s) arrive!


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> "Still, my Ember will be to me tomorrow [Friday]!!! So I'm excited, and I'm hoping those new stock production tubes impress me in the Ember..."
> 
> Mshenay, please post your impressions when your Ember ll and tube(s) arrive!




YEA I will , I'm REALLY happy I splurged for the Ember II! My iBasso PB2 DIED LAST NIGHT!! Went from 100% to 0 in seconds, and it was the better sounding SE output in my house, as my Audio GD NFB10ES2 SE out is kinda... soft sounding

Best of all MY EMBER WAS DELIVERED Today  along with both of the replacement tubes! So I'll let you guys know what I think as soon as I get home! I remember there were times when I preferred the Starlight OVER my iBasso PB2, so I'm really excited to get the same quality output on the SE Ember II, that I get with my Balanced NFB10ES2, and I'm pretty confident I can


----------



## Makiah S (May 6, 2017)

Got my Ember Yesterday, I uploaded a linked img but it seems it didn't stick. First impressions are goood! Trying out the GoldPin EH 6SN7 Tube now


----------



## nwavesailor (May 9, 2017)

Shameless plug: I just listed 2 NOS / NIB tubes that some found to be nice in their Ember. One is a Tungsram PCC88 / 7DJ8 and the other is a Tesla E88CC.
I have gone to dual 'single plate' tube setup for the most part.

After a very brief listen, the Tungsram is a very nice tube with lots of detail and no shrill brightness. The Tesla is nicely balanced w/o as much detail as the Tungsram at least IMO.


----------



## Makiah S

I'm trying to move into a dual Single Plate, but I'm going to have to wait a while


----------



## nwavesailor

Yep, there is the cost of the adapter + 2 single plate tubes


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> Yep, there is the cost of the adapter + 2 single plate tubes


Which have you found offer the best... value? If I want the best sound stage an details, at the cost of some Bass SLAM and mid warmth,  I tinkered with some Mazda 76's and I wasn't impressed with them on my Starlight


----------



## DruidxEFD

Mshenay said:


> Which have you found offer the best... value? If I want the best sound stage an details, at the cost of some Bass SLAM and mid warmth,  I tinkered with some Mazda 76's and I wasn't impressed with them on my Starlight



Not a single plate and requires a different adapter, but I bought the Ken-Rad 6F8G for around $40 and the adapter costs $10. Great soundstage, detailed and clear. Bass is nice and accurate, and imo provides some slam as well. Take that with a grain of salt though, as I don't really have any headphones that are basshead types. I'd say my Ken-Rad 6F8G tube is a close second to my Zenith dual 6J5G tubes which cost me twice as much.

This is the adapter that I bought: http://www.ebay.com/itm/200905127802?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## Makiah S (May 11, 2017)

DruidxEFD said:


> Not a single plate and requires a different adapter, but I bought the Ken-Rad 6F8G for around $40 and the adapter costs $10. Great soundstage, detailed and clear. Bass is nice and accurate, and imo provides some slam as well. Take that with a grain of salt though, as I don't really have any headphones that are basshead types. I'd say my Ken-Rad 6F8G tube is a close second to my Zenith dual 6J5G tubes which cost me twice as much.
> 
> This is the adapter that I bought: http://www.ebay.com/itm/200905127802?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT



http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-gold-plated-6F8G-6C8G-TO-6SN7-6SL7-tube-converter-adapter/200905127802?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIC.MBE&ao=2&asc=40130&meid=8b7e4ab047044caa8af70253ba618793&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=6&mehot=pp&sd=302294690195

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Type-6F8G-K...963707?hash=item4d596f897b:g:GN0AAOSwjL5ZEX2W

Yea that price isn't bad! I'm curious to see how it sounds, and I'll take your word blindly, I hear a lot of positive about the KenRad Tubes, they are known for their SLAMMING bass, so we will see! The adapter will arrive to me, by the end of the month. An I'll have the tube in about a week


----------



## nwavesailor (May 11, 2017)

You may find the need for a Faraday cage or a ferrite bead to place on wire of the adapter when using the 6F8G in your Ember ll. I have a cage that I use with 6F8G and all the dual tubes.

I just received some 3 mm ferrite beads from China and need to see if one on the wire works as well as the cage.

I'll try the bead today and let you know if it is all you may need to run quiet!


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> You may find the need for a Faraday cage or a ferrite bead to place on wire of the adapter when using the 6F8G in your Ember ll. I have a cage that I use with 6F8G and all the dual tubes.
> 
> I just received some 3 mm ferrite beads from China and need to see if one on the wire works as well as the cage.
> 
> I'll try the bead today and let you know if it is all you may need to run quiet!



Please let me know what you find! I have 2-3 weeks before I can even use the Tube. I have it placed next to my Metal PC Tower, which isn't running wireless, I use Hard Cable Ethernet. But if the bead does cut down on the noise, I'll certainly buy one from you, if you can spare it


----------



## nwavesailor

Will do!

If it works, I'll just send you one. They were a whopping .20 cents each.


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> Will do!
> 
> If it works, I'll just send you one. They were a whopping .20 cents each.


WHOA BOY! Thanks

Here's to hoping it does <.< I'm not super keen on building a Faraday cage, my wife will go nuts if she see's that thing >.>


----------



## nwavesailor

I hear ya..............I'm lucky as my bride thinks the Faraday cage looked kinda 'industrial cool'!


----------



## Makiah S

nwavesailor said:


> I hear ya..............I'm lucky as my bride thinks the Faraday cage looked kinda 'industrial cool'!


 haha right, well the other thing is Space, I've got one of my headphone Stands behind it, but I can always Put it on top ;3 that'd be cool

Still I need to build it, I saw that you used Chicken wire and Electrical Tap, where'd you get the Chicken Wire from? I can get a LOT from my hardware store but no one sells just a little bit lol, you might have to sell me one xD and start your very own Faraday Cage biz


----------



## nwavesailor

Actually it is chicken wire and wire ties. I bought 1 foot from a roll that was either 24" or 36" tall. I'll see if I have enough for another cage and, if so, I can ship it with your ferrite bead, (if it works) no charge just the $1-$2 for postage.


----------



## DruidxEFD

I found that for me personally, switching to a Bifrost Uber DAC fixed my noise issues, probably due to a better power supply. My old DAC uses an AC adapter. Now I don't have noise issues with any of my tubes. If I unplug the RCAs coming from the Bifrost though, I immediately hear noise again.


----------



## Makiah S (May 11, 2017)

DruidxEFD said:


> I found that for me personally, switching to a Bifrost Uber DAC fixed my noise issues, probably due to a better power supply. My old DAC uses an AC adapter. Now I don't have noise issues with any of my tubes. If I unplug the RCAs coming from the Bifrost though, I immediately hear noise again.



Yea I never had a huge issue with noise, even on my starlight. Some of the tubes were pretty noisy, and actually without any RCAs plugged into my Ember it is a little noisy, still I have my Audio GD 10NFB10ES2 on a seperate PCi Powered USB Card, and then my entire rig is hooked into my Furman Power Conditioner. That PCi usb card really did clean up the output

but If you've got enough to make, an ship I'll happily cover the shipping costs


----------



## Tunkejazz

Mshenay said:


> Yea that price isn't bad! I'm curious to see how it sounds, and I'll take your word blindly, I hear a lot of positive about the KenRad Tubes, they are known for their SLAMMING bass, so we will see! The adapter will arrive to me, by the end of the month. An I'll have the tube in about a week



You can try foil paper around the cable of the adapter. In my case with these tubes the Faraday cage alone did not remove all EMI entirely, but I use my Ember in a very nasty environment (my office) with many power supplies, computers and WIFI around....

Others tried successfully ferrite core filters like these, but check that it is for the right cable thickness:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5pcs-3-5mm-...972299?hash=item28319b978b:g:LzIAAOSw3ZRY9dcW

Overall the biggest bass I have got with the Ember was with 6C8G RCA. I just didn't need so much bass


----------



## Makiah S

Tunkejazz said:


> You can try foil paper around the cable of the adapter. In my case with these tubes the Faraday cage alone did not remove all EMI entirely, but I use my Ember in a very nasty environment (my office) with many power supplies, computers and WIFI around....
> 
> Others tried successfully ferrite core filters like these, but check that it is for the right cable thickness:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/5pcs-3-5mm-...972299?hash=item28319b978b:g:LzIAAOSw3ZRY9dcW
> ...


nwavesailor, offered to ship me one if it took the noise out of his 6f8g, I too am concerned about the bass, my 6sn7 EHs have a LOT so much so that it really doesn't suite any of my headphones all that well, but I'm hoping a slightly larger sound stage with the same quantity of bass will help to bring it back down to earth


----------



## nwavesailor (May 11, 2017)

Tunkejazz, I bought those exact 3.5mm ferrite beads and in my situation, on the wire going to the cap of a TS 6F8G, it had close to 0 effect. I'm glad I only spent a little over $1 for the 5 pack.

Put my Faraday cage back in place (with a ground strap to the chassis) and..............................stone quiet again !!!!!!!!!!!

Bad news Mshenay on the ferrite beads, in my situation, useless.  I also don't have enough chicken wire fencing left to have you build your own cage


----------



## Astral Abyss

nwavesailor said:


> Tunkejazz, I bought those exact 3.5mm ferrite beads and in my situation, on the wire going to the cap of a TS 6F8G, it had close to 0 effect. I'm glad I only spent a little over $1 for the 5 pack.
> 
> Put my Faraday cage back in place (with a ground strap to the chassis) and..............................stone quiet again !!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Bad news Mshenay on the ferrite beads, in my situation, useless.  I also don't have enough chicken wire fencing left to have you build your own cage



Just to reiterate what @nwavesailor said, I wouldn't use a 6F8G without shielding.  My Raytheon VT-99 (6F8G) hums annoyingly loud in the left channel.  Moving my hand near the tube or touching the thumbscrews quiets it down.  With the amount of great tubes out there that don't require any type of cage... why bother?


----------



## Makiah S (May 12, 2017)

Astral Abyss said:


> Just to reiterate what @nwavesailor said, I wouldn't use a 6F8G without shielding.  My Raytheon VT-99 (6F8G) hums annoyingly loud in the left channel.  Moving my hand near the tube or touching the thumbscrews quiets it down.  With the amount of great tubes out there that don't require any type of cage... why bother?



well I hear about a lot of duals, but I'm trying to find a good single for now in that $50 price range, so I guess I'll hear it for my self. eBay is pretty decent about returns so I'm not super worried tbh worse comes to worse, It'll cost me $5 to send it back and I'll just try another


----------



## dpump

"well I hear about a lot of duals, but I'm trying to find a good single for now in that $50 price range, so I guess I'll hear it for my self. eBay is pretty decent about returns so I'm not super worried tbh worse comes to worse, It'll cost me $5 to send it back and I'll just try another."

Not sure what you mean about being able to return a tube and try another. I wouldn't count on being able to buy tubes on eBay and send them back just because you don't like them. Unless the tube is somehow defective, it isn't fair to the seller to send it back if the sound isn't to your liking. Nor should you tell the seller there is a problem with a tube just to be able to return it. Just my opinion about how to treat eBay sellers as long as their description of the item is correct. I don't sell on eBay but I've sold a lot on Head-Fi. I've had a couple of people here send tubes back to me when there was nothing wrong with them saying they had a problem but there was no problem when I got them back and checked them.


----------



## Makiah S (May 12, 2017)

dpump said:


> "well I hear about a lot of duals, but I'm trying to find a good single for now in that $50 price range, so I guess I'll hear it for my self. eBay is pretty decent about returns so I'm not super worried tbh worse comes to worse, It'll cost me $5 to send it back and I'll just try another."
> 
> Not sure what you mean about being able to return a tube and try another. I wouldn't count on being able to buy tubes on eBay and send them back just because you don't like them. Unless the tube is somehow defective, it isn't fair to the seller to send it back if the sound isn't to your liking. Nor should you tell the seller there is a problem with a tube just to be able to return it. Just my opinion about how to treat eBay sellers as long as their description of the item is correct. I don't sell on eBay but I've sold a lot on Head-Fi. I've had a couple of people here send tubes back to me when there was nothing wrong with them saying they had a problem but there was no problem when I got them back and checked them.



Most of the vendors I buy from on eBay allow for exchanges. Based on if it works in your system or not, so if it is really noisy I pay to ship it back and exchange it for another Tube of theirs. I wouldn't lie to them about it working or not working, that's dishonest. An again, the vendors that I buy from have always offered me an exchange when I found a tube didn't work well in my Amp. I did it with the Starlight once, one of the tubes I got just did NOT have proper gain in the amp and was to quiet. I worked with a guy out of NC and he was more than happy to exchange it for another! I just paid to ship it back, which I had no problem with of course. Most of the US based guys are very easy to work with! An state their return policy pretty plainly. 

Granted, when I make a purchase on head fi, if I don't like it I sell it. I've never even thought to return a product I purchased here, were not that kind of market place. 

Also, speaking of Buying and Selling, when I've sold here I always ship with Insurance equal to the purchase amount. If there REALLY is physical dmg [and I've had tubes crack during transit] USPS is very easy to work with. They'll issue the full amount that you insured via check to the recipient [or buyer] so as a benefit to my self and my buyers, I insure my sales here on Head Fi. Of the two times I've had to use said Insurance, USPS wasn't difficult to work with, and my buyer didn't seem to mind getting a full refund plus the product that was purchased 

I also purchased a Sylvania 6sn7 GT Black Base Green Letters, Top Getter and Stepped Plates on eBay for like $15 today as well, it had a small crack on the base. Buyer was pretty upfront about it, and because of that fault it was as cheap as it was, so I figured I'd get it to try as well!


----------



## jokobuba

richard51 said:


> Kenrad is the best and national union second.... for 7193 tubes..... its simple, all is better across the range.. soundstage is better definite and all frequencies are more vivid... and that is the same on my speakers or on my hifiman he 400...if you read on the internet you will discover many favorable reviews of people who goes from  6sn7 good tubes toward 7193 better tubes...I had not discovered one negative review on the net,( hence i bought several tubes) here is a sample of reviews from different sources:
> 
> «National Union vs RCA vs Ken-Rad 7193 tubes.
> Since I have converted my Chenin to 7193s, I have been evaluating the different brands of 7193s available (in addition to enjoying the great sound!). Let me say that they are all excellent tubes, but there are some subtle differences between them, both in sound and in construction. All have black, relatively flat plates, with small boxes in the center.
> ...



hello, can i ask something? it is possible to run 7193 tubes on little dot mkII? I HAVE 2 PAIRS OF POWER TUBES AND 2 DRIVER TUBES MULLARDS...  THANKS


----------



## ericr

Mshenay said:


> <snip>
> 
> I also purchased a Sylvania 6sn7 GT Black Base Green Letters, Top Getter and Stepped Plates on eBay for like $15 today as well, it had a small crack on the base. Buyer was pretty upfront about it, and because of that fault it was as cheap as it was, so I figured I'd get it to try as well!



If you find you like the Sylvania it would be worth trying the 6SN7W.  They are much like the one you bought, just better.  Improved bass extension and detail, a bit sweeter mids, clearer highs, and wider, more open highs with a excellent sense of air.


----------



## nwavesailor

The 7193 'Franken Tubes' may be really, REALLY good, I can't say. 

I have more than enough 6 volt, 12 volt and single plate dual tubes to not be tempted to go down another adapter / tube type rabbit hole.................at least not TODAY!


----------



## DruidxEFD

jokobuba said:


> hello, can i ask something? it is possible to run 7193 tubes on little dot mkII? I HAVE 2 PAIRS OF POWER TUBES AND 2 DRIVER TUBES MULLARDS...  THANKS



I have a Little Dot MKIII and the power tubes are compatible with Project Ember but the driver tubes are NOT. Not to mention that the Little Dot amps are not nearly as tube roller friendly as the Project amps. I would highly advise against trying tubes that the amp is not explicitly designed for with LD amps. At the very least, please check with David at Little Dot before buying any tubes that may not be compatible.

There, I've done my good deed for today.


----------



## Makiah S

ericr said:


> If you find you like the Sylvania it would be worth trying the 6SN7W.  They are much like the one you bought, just better.  Improved bass extension and detail, a bit sweeter mids, clearer highs, and wider, more open highs with a excellent sense of air.



I'll do you one better, I'm going to compare the... 1950 6sn7 arriving on Thursday, to a 1945 6sn7w Chrome Dome AND I'll compare that to a 1950s 6sn7w vt 231... and let you guys know what I think.


----------



## ericr

Mshenay said:


> I'll do you one better, I'm going to compare the... 1950 6sn7 arriving on Thursday, to a 1945 6sn7w Chrome Dome AND I'll compare that to a 1950s 6sn7w vt 231... and let you guys know what I think.



Nice!

I'll be waiting for your results.

Is the 6SN7W a metal base, or if black base a short or tall glass?


----------



## nwavesailor

I recall reading old posts that connieflyer, and some of the old regulars that have moved on to better amps, were quite taken with the 7193 tubes. Then dual 6J5G, 6C5G, 6L5G, 6P5G seemed to be the 'hot tubes' and in favor. I see that richard51 is still a big fan of the Franken Tubes. Do other Ember owners still use their dual Franken Tube setup and find it be their top tube choice?


----------



## Tunkejazz (May 14, 2017)

I have the Franken setup with my Ember. It is really good in some aspects, especially with the Ken-Rads. I am terrible describing audio, and I normally find that changing tubes has a minor but noticeable change in sound. But here it goes, if I was going to mention something that is very good with the Franken Ember is the BIG sound and huge stage. I don't think that the Visseaux 6J5 with my setup give as good stage. With the FrankenEmber drums are impressive, and they provide a bit of a fun factor in that respect. The V's are more "correct" and neutral.

They sound certainly different than the Raytheon 6SN7 that I have been using lately. The latter emphasises deep-bass and a very clean mid-range, but the stage is a bit less layered than with the FrankenEmber. The advantage of the FrankenEmber is that it is relatively inexpensive, especially if you live in Europe because there are some Italian sellers with very competitive prices. 

The down side is that you have 4 wires that may be exposed to EMI, I normally need the cage (aka, a metal cutlery container from IKEA).

I hope this helps!


----------



## nwavesailor (May 14, 2017)

Thanks, Tunkejazz!

I am quite content and thrilled with the sound of the dual Visseaux and Tung Sol 6J5G. We have the same vintage Raytheon 6SN7 and that is a great tube as well.
I just can't help myself when a tasty worm or new lure is tossed into the lake.

NSBO (New Shiny Bright Object!)


----------



## Makiah S

ericr said:


> Nice!
> 
> I'll be waiting for your results.
> 
> Is the 6SN7W a metal base, or if black base a short or tall glass?



can't say as I have nothing to compare it to though non of the sellers specified the height of the glass sadly 

I'll have pictures if the three soon!


----------



## Makiah S (May 20, 2017)

The two nicer Sylvanias, ones a GTA 6sn7W the others a Jan-CHS 6sn7

I've swapped into the Chrome Dome 6sn6 GTA Chrome Dome... and WOWZA this thing sounds NICE, getting some details out of the Meze 99 Neo I have, that I haven't heard yet!!! Though it's not quite as 3D as the cheaper tube was :/ , here's to hoping that crazy JAN-CHS does the trick for me!


 with the lesser one

So far I can say it's a nosier version of my Electro Harmonix 6SN7s, sounds not bad, but I do think a faraday cage would help... it's not pictured but I've got a stainless steel paring knife on the back nuts, it really does help a little with the noise


----------



## Makiah S (May 20, 2017)

Mshenay said:


> The two nicer Sylvanias, ones a GTA 6sn7W the others a Jan-CHS 6sn7
> 
> I've swapped into the Chrome Dome 6sn6 GTA Chrome Dome... and WOWZA this thing sounds NICE, getting some details out of the Meze 99 Neo I have, that I haven't heard yet!!! Though it's not quite as 3D as the cheaper tube was :/ , here's to hoping that crazy JAN-CHS does the trick for me!
> 
> ...



oooooooh wow, sound stage is reallly good on the 6sn7w, pairs really amazingly with my W1000X!!! Had to install a little TinFoil shield though, touch of noise was driving my nuts, my stainless steel knife wasn't working... had just enough to make a little tent ^^ now it's a happy little tube!


 the Jan-CHS 6sn7w does sound the best, to start with it's a little microphonic, doesn't like to be touched or looked at, but it is the quietest, didn't make as much noise as the first two, still using the shield though in a different spot... it is a little bassier than the 6sn7 GTA, still not sure if I like that or not, oh yea, I do like it... Transcendental Tripping's intro bass line is... a little over emphasized with some headphones/gear

so to start the GTA 6sn7 Chrome Dome did a nice job masking some of the audible distortion the meze 99 neo has, but swapping into the 6sn7W Jan-CHS, I get the nice mids of the 6sn7 gta, but with a more powerful cleaner bass, which doesn't mask as much on the low end.

To the people who says these are bass light, aren't kidding! It's not as big a deal as people make it out to be, but compared to my PicoPower this amp doesn't have as much bass, though power amps have a good clean controlled low end, with more gusto on the Pico Power

But the JAN-CHS 6sn7W isn't as tubey as the GTA 6sn7, the mids aren't quite as forward, so where the 6sn7 gta would add a nice dynamic boost to a flatter slower headphone, the JAN-CHS 6sn7W doesn't, it's got better clarity for sure, which... is kinda nice, kinda not...

For what it's worth, while I appreciate the JAN-CHS it's not as much fun to listen to as the 6sn7 GTA, and at triple the price... It's a tough call. If you've got a really transparent headphone, and you want to preserve that, It'll do well

And...   ooooooh! YEA... yea I'm diggin this bad boi... last time I heard that kind of SNAP on the percussion of So What, was with my LA D5k, out of my Starlight! With a VokShod... nice to get that kinda SNAP back,

Need to make more concise notes, an listen to these tubes with a better headphone than the Meze 99 neo, but this is my last night with it so I'm making due. Plus the 99 Neo isn't as clean in the bass as the Classics were, it's a little softer and loose. The Ember II and 6sn7 jan-chs pair nicely with that softer loose base I think. Out of a solid state, the Meze 99 Neo's flaws are more apparent


----------



## Makiah S (May 20, 2017)

Any who, moving onto the next triple shoot out, I've got 2 sylvania v231s. 1 Black Base white label just sylvania Vt 231, and another black base, green labeled as 6sn7 GT Jan-CHS vt 231

I have to say, I'm really liking how these sound! An enjoying having a couple of these, I'm really impressed with the Ember!!!


----------



## bilboda

Astral Abyss said:


> Just to reiterate what @nwavesailor said, I wouldn't use a 6F8G without shielding.  My Raytheon VT-99 (6F8G) hums annoyingly loud in the left channel.  Moving my hand near the tube or touching the thumbscrews quiets it down.  With the amount of great tubes out there that don't require any type of cage... why bother?



I have 2 6f8g's and not a hummer in the bunch, cheap too.


----------



## nwavesailor

Nice! Which 6F8G's did you snag?

If you put your hand on top (or hover just above) the tube, does it stay the same or is it quieter or unchanged?


----------



## bilboda

NU and Raytheon. I haven't heard hum or any change in any circumstance. I did have to clean the corroded pins and top connector with a metal cleaner. Pretty corroded but they are now shiny, like new. Everything plugs in to a socket saver so they sit kind of high but I never noticed anything when plugged in direct to the Ember I with super charger.


----------



## nwavesailor

You are very lucky, live a pure life............. or perhaps both!!!


----------



## yuhengtiger (May 22, 2017)

Hi everyone,

I am very new to tube rolling. Just got my ember II a week ago and pairing it with hd650. (I got a grado hp1000 hp2 on the way as well)Like it better than the bottlehead crack with speedball upgrade for the versatility.

I like warm, vivid and 3d sound. I prefer warm, intimate vocals. Can anyone recommend me some tubes to start with? I was thinking of getting a amperex 6dj8 orange globe first..

Also, what type of adapters should I get from garage12 to fit more (and better) tube options? I see on some post on this thread a dual tube adapter is used but I can't find it on the garage12 product page?

Thank you!


----------



## Makiah S

yuhengtiger said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I am very new to tube rolling. Just got my ember II a week ago and pairing it with hd650. (I got a grado hp1000 hp2 on the way as well)Like it better than the bottlehead crack with speedball upgrade for the versatility.
> 
> ...



Hey there! Your in SC as well that's awesome man didn't know I had another neighbor so close. For warm sound I've always looked to Mullard, though I don't know  high end what's worth while, people also Praise Ken Rad tubes for their BIG bass, chances are that bass will also have some Low Mid body bump as well, so it should give you a nice full sound too. For duals, I can't help you much... and sadly even for warm tubes I'm not super experienced but try checking out this page for 6sn7 options https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/


----------



## yuhengtiger

Mshenay said:


> Hey there! Your in SC as well that's awesome man didn't know I had another neighbor so close. For warm sound I've always looked to Mullard, though I don't know  high end what's worth while, people also Praise Ken Rad tubes for their BIG bass, chances are that bass will also have some Low Mid body bump as well, so it should give you a nice full sound too. For duals, I can't help you much... and sadly even for warm tubes I'm not super experienced but try checking out this page for 6sn7 options https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/the-reference-6sn7-thread.117677/



Nice to see you here! I am located at Clemson. Thanks for your information on the 6sn7! I am going to try some of them out soon.. Really excited for the new toys!


----------



## nwavesailor

yuhengtiger said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I am very new to tube rolling. Just got my ember II a week ago and pairing it with hd650. (I got a grado hp1000 hp2 on the way as well)Like it better than the bottlehead crack with speedball upgrade for the versatility.
> 
> ...



Yes, the Amperex Orange Globe (be sure it is Holland production) 6DJ8 would be a good choice. I also have an Orange Globe 12AU7 that is very nice.

The dual adapters are from an E-Bay seller. I'll add the seller's page after I post this. You may want to start with single tubes and no adapter before going crazy and too far down the tube rolling rabbit hole!!!


----------



## yuhengtiger

nwavesailor said:


> Yes, the Amperex Orange Globe (be sure it is Holland production) 6DJ8 would be a good choice. I also have an Orange Globe 12AU7 that is very nice.
> 
> The dual adapters are from an E-Bay seller. I'll add the seller's page after I post this. You may want to start with single tubes and no adapter before going crazy and too far down the tube rolling rabbit hole!!!



Thanks for your advice, that makes a lot of sense. Yes, just placed an order of an Amperex Orange Glod made in Holland 6DJ8 on ebay, can't wait for it to arrive on Sat! The 12AU7 will have more power? It might fit the hd650 better than the grado hp1000 then.


----------



## Makiah S (May 22, 2017)

yuhengtiger said:


> Nice to see you here! I am located at Clemson. Thanks for your information on the 6sn7! I am going to try some of them out soon.. Really excited for the new toys!



Mhm, this is an excellent place to get started, and I agree with @nwavesailor singles are a great place to start! Do let us know what you find, as I have no experience with singles, and if your ever in Myrtle Beach hit me up!



yuhengtiger said:


> Thanks for your advice, that makes a lot of sense. Yes, just placed an order of an Amperex Orange Glod made in Holland 6DJ8 on ebay, can't wait for it to arrive on Sat! The 12AU7 will have more power? It might fit the hd650 better than the grado hp1000 then.



Actually, I use Low Resistance setting for almost all my headphones, so really I wouldn't worry about power, the Ember II drove my HE 4 and then did equally well with my Nhoord Red V1. Sadly though, I don't have any 300/600 ohm headphones in my collection. But you could swap up into Medium Resistance with the HD 650,

But your in for a real treat with the Grado's and the Ember


----------



## nwavesailor

The 12AU7 will have more power? It might fit the hd650 better than the grado hp1000 then.[/QUOTE]

Actually I believe the 6DJ8 has more gain than the 12 AU7:


----------



## yuhengtiger

Mshenay said:


> Mhm, this is an excellent place to get started, and I agree with @nwavesailor singles are a great place to start! Do let us know what you find, as I have no experience with singles, and if your ever in Myrtle Beach hit me up!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you! Will do!!


----------



## Makiah S

yuhengtiger said:


> Thanks for your advice, that makes a lot of sense. Yes, just placed an order of an Amperex Orange Glod made in Holland 6DJ8 on ebay, can't wait for it to arrive on Sat! The 12AU7 will have more power? It might fit the hd650 better than the grado hp1000 then.





nwavesailor said:


> The 12AU7 will have more power? It might fit the hd650 better than the grado hp1000 then.
> 
> Actually I believe the 6DJ8 has more gain than the 12 AU7:



Thank you @nwavesailor for digging up the hard data, there you go @yuhengtiger !


----------



## Makiah S

Hey guys I goof'd and bought an un measured un tested tube, I really have no desire to put it into my Amp without knowing how it measures. What tests can I do with my multi meter to ensure that it's... safe to plug in?


----------



## CZ4A

Mshenay said:


> Hey guys I goof'd and bought an un measured un tested tube, I really have no desire to put it into my Amp without knowing how it measures. What tests can I do with my multi meter to ensure that it's... safe to plug in?



Unfortunately, you can't test a tube with a multimeter, except for continuity. What kind of tube is it? As long as it's a compatible type it's extremely unlikely to damage the amp.


----------



## Makiah S

CZ4A said:


> Unfortunately, you can't test a tube with a multimeter, except for continuity. What kind of tube is it? As long as it's a compatible type it's extremely unlikely to damage the amp.



ugh, a 6sn7 Sylvania GT vt 231 jan-chs green label, I made the mistake of buying from a vendor that's... never sold tubes apparently


----------



## ericr

Considering that:

1) A number of Ember enthusiasts on this thread are seemingly happily settled on a dual tube (with older single triodes) setup.
_    -and-_
2) After buying way to many tubes I've now settled on the Sylvania 6SN7W (via Garage1217 6SN7 adapter).

I am quite curious if, compared to the 6SN7W, are these dual tube setups worth the trouble. 

Yet it seems the dual-tube and 6SN7W camps never cross!  So as an alternative to me buying an adaptor and the requisite single triode tubes - something I don't really have the time or energy for right now - I'm willing to send one of my 6SN7W tubes out on tour. That is, if any of you fellow Ember owners would be interested in taking it for a spin for a week or two. 

While dual-tube owners would be especially encouraged to participate I would appreciate feedback on the 6SN7W from any Ember owner!

Anyone interested?

-Eric


----------



## Makiah S

ericr said:


> Considering that:
> 
> 1) A number of Ember enthusiasts on this thread are seemingly happily settled on a dual tube (with older single triodes) setup.
> _    -and-_
> ...



Sadly I'm also on the 6sn7W camp, I have a 100%100% matched one, chrome dome green label that I love! I would be curious to see what they think of it, the dual tube camp.


----------



## bilboda

ericr said:


> Considering that:
> 
> 1) A number of Ember enthusiasts on this thread are seemingly happily settled on a dual tube (with older single triodes) setup.
> _    -and-_
> ...



Oh they do cross. I received 2 6sn7 and a dual tube setup, 6l5 and 6j5 when I bought my Ember used. I have since added 6n6p-ir 6dj8, 68fg and 12 au7. I just don't do enough critical listening to rate them. Except for the 12au7 (so-so) they are all very enjoyable


----------



## Makiah S

Speaking of, I THOUGHT I got my hands on a Green Label 6sn7 GT Tall bottle, bottom getter flashed, but it would appear my seller on ebay... didn't actually have it. They in stead sent me some kind of un label'd brown base 5 pin tube -.- so that said if any one has a green label, black base 6sn7gt Tall bottle, bottom Getter Flash Jan-CHS vt231 Sylvania I'm in the market! 

I only have a white label variant [going to give it a listen tonight but I was WAITING to compare it to the GREEN label version... but oh well]


----------



## SnapperMusicFan

HOWIE13 said:


> FrankenJr, adapter is here:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-6F8G-...107223?hash=item2c9983b757:g:j~4AAOSwstxVFUiM
> 
> ...


Hi Howie 13,

Have you tried the 6C8G in the Elise, it's very hard to find out for sure if these are compatible with the Elise? 

Any info appreciated.


----------



## Makiah S

Doing my first listen finally with my White Label Sylvania 6sn7GT Jan-Chs VT 231, I can kinda see where people complain about these lacking bass, it also lacks some... hurrah in percussion like I'm used to with my 6sn7W

The tactility though is impressive the micro dynamics are cleaner and faster. Pulls detail out a little bit better,

Well the gain is higher on my 6sn7W, not by much... and it is a little bassier for sure. But it's a shame to say the 6sn7GT Vt231 Jan-Chs does have better overall detail, less bass but also faster transients >.> which sucks cuz it was CHEAPER than my 6sn7W AND had it's original box!!!!! Oh well, I'm still very curious how the Green Label VT-231 Jan-CHS 6sn7 GT sounds vs the White Label.

The moral of the story here is the price'r options is not always the subjectively better sounding one. Still though, if you want a funner tube the 6sn7W is great, it's like a SUPER DUPER 6sn7GTA still I'm liking this white label variant more my self

So I guess... I've got a 6sn7W for sale. Great measurements  
*Hickok TV-7B/U* tested*

*@ 92/95*


----------



## ericr

Mshenay said:


> Speaking of, I THOUGHT I got my hands on a Green Label 6sn7 GT Tall bottle, bottom getter flashed, but it would appear my seller on ebay... didn't actually have it. They in stead sent me some kind of un label'd brown base 5 pin tube -.- so that said if any one has a green label, black base 6sn7gt Tall bottle, bottom Getter Flash Jan-CHS vt231 Sylvania I'm in the market!
> 
> I only have a white label variant [going to give it a listen tonight but I was WAITING to compare it to the GREEN label version... but oh well]



Can you post a picture of the tube you are looking for?  If so I will look through my collection to see if I have one.


----------



## Makiah S

ericr said:


> Can you post a picture of the tube you are looking for?  If so I will look through my collection to see if I have one.





Spoiler: Big Picture











It is a Sylvania 6sn7 GT vt231 Jan-chs, bottom getter flash, tall bottle. I've seen some people refer to these as "bad boi's" since they have the T Plates, there is apparently both a 3 and 2 hole variant. I've seen the 3 Hole Variants listed as Bad Boi's but I always thought the Sylvania Bad Boi was a Chrome Dome? 

Either way, I have a this



Spoiler: White Label Version 











An apparently the green label verision of that tube sounds better


----------



## Astral Abyss

Mshenay said:


> Spoiler: Big Picture
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Bad Boy Sylvania tube is only from 1952 and briefly in 1953.  It is a black base, green label, tall glass 6SN7GT.  It only has 3 hole t-plates with very shiny, polished micas.  There were no 2 hole,  CHS or VT-231 versions of the Bad Boy, as far as I know.  You'll see all kinds of people slapping "Bad Boy" on every Sylvania tube they sell.  I don't really think most sellers know what it means.

Anyway, it's a good tube, but not my favorite tube.  Here's some pics of one of my pristine Bad Boys.  You'll notice the vertical date code 252 on mine, from December, the last week of 1952.  They all have vertical date codes as well.

Hope this helps your search.


----------



## Makiah S

Thanks! I don't want a bad boi honestly, I want a green label black base jan-chs VT 231 Sylvania 6sn7 GT, good to know about the above!


----------



## Tunkejazz

Astral Abyss said:


> The Bad Boy Sylvania tube is only from 1952 and briefly in 1953.  It is a black base, green label, tall glass 6SN7GT.  It only has 3 hole t-plates with very shiny, polished micas.  There were no 2 hole,  CHS or VT-231 versions of the Bad Boy, as far as I know.  You'll see all kinds of people slapping "Bad Boy" on every Sylvania tube they sell.  I don't really think most sellers know what it means.
> 
> Anyway, it's a good tube, but not my favorite tube.  Here's some pics of one of my pristine Bad Boys.  You'll notice the vertical date code 252 on mine, from December, the last week of 1952.  They all have vertical date codes as well.
> 
> Hope this helps your search.



Yes, I have a bunch of these...the tube in the picture looks like a real Bad "ass"Boy 
It is not that different from the older VT231, but it gives a little bit more bass.


----------



## Makiah S

Tunkejazz said:


> Yes, I have a bunch of these...the tube in the picture looks like a real Bad "ass"Boy
> It is not that different from the older VT231, but it gives a little bit more bass.



Good to know, I can see where people find the vt231 jan-chs's as having "weak bass" my nfb10ES2 has a more powerful low end in comparison to the VT231 jan-chs gt I have, but I find the tube to have better control and overall texture compared to the more singular sound of my Solid State. Though, that's with my dynamics. My HE 4 still prefers and sounds best out of the SS 

still I'd love to hear something with the same clarity but just a touch more bass... a bad boy might be worth trying


----------



## Schenkelini

Has anyone tried 6SL7's in the Ember?


----------



## ericr

Don't think they are


Schenkelini said:


> Has anyone tried 6SL7's in the Ember?



Don't think they are compatible.


----------



## Schenkelini

I shot off an email to Jeremy, and apparently they are compatible. I have some from an old amp that I am going to try why my adapter arrives. I bought it with the 6SN7 that Jeremy sells.


ericr said:


> Don't think they are
> 
> 
> Don't think they are compatible.



I sent and email to Jeremy and it is compatible. I have a couple from an old amp I used to use. When my adapter gets here I am going to try them.


----------



## ericr

So the 6SN7 adapter from  Garage 1217 can be used with a 6SL7?


----------



## Mechans1 (Jul 2, 2017)

I have a bunch of those in 2 rivet and 3 rivet versions.  Indeed the Bad Boy is by definition the 3 rivet tube and those vendors that call the 2 rivet tube a Bad Boy are either uneducated/unaware at best and deceptive etc. at worst.  The VT231 is a military part number but does not confer any special characteristic or construction on the tube despite widely held, almost religious belief, that it must count for something. BTW I think the white letter were actually light blue, not sure if that matters either.
If I was a better computer geek I would copy a picture of both the 2 rivet and Bad Boy tube from Audio Asylum tube asylum.  There is an obvious difference in the wire and quantity of said wire in the Bad Boy. I hope the link will show up.
I would offer to send some GTs and Ws around but I am temporarily disabled and can't get to P.O. or shippers easily.

https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m....ch.mpl?forum=tubes&searchtext=Bad+Boy+picture


----------



## Makiah S

Mechans1 said:


> I have a bunch of those in 2 rivet and 3 rivet versions.  Indeed the Bad Boy is by definition the 3 rivet tube and those vendors that call the 2 rivet tube a Bad Boy are either uneducated/unaware at best and deceptive etc. at worst.  The VT231 is a military part number but does not confer any special characteristic or construction on the tube despite widely held, almost religious belief, that it must count for something. BTW I think the white letter were actually light blue, not sure if that matters either.
> If I was a better computer geek I would copy a picture of both the 2 rivet and Bad Boy tube from Audio Asylum tube asylum.  There is an obvious difference in the wire and quantity of said wire in the Bad Boy. I hope the link will show up.
> I would offer to send some GTs and Ws around but I am temporarily disabled and can't get to P.O. or shippers easily.
> 
> https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=tubes&n=186479&highlight=Bad+Boy+picture&r=&search_url=/cgi/search.mpl?forum=tubes&searchtext=Bad+Boy+picture



great post! I like the complete tear down of each tube, makes it easy to see the real differences in construction 

I have a vt231 jan-chs GT that I preffered over my 6sn7W short bottle


----------



## CZ4A

ericr said:


> So the 6SN7 adapter from  Garage 1217 can be used with a 6SL7?



Yep. I've used 6SL7s with the G1217 adapter in my Sunrise before. There are some nice-sounding NOS 6SL7s out there, but be aware the standard consumer models (not military or industrial) tend to be microphonic.


----------



## Makiah S

Woo! Great news I finally got a hold of the green label variant of the
*Sylvania VT-231 Jan-Chs *_[black base, green 1950s label, bottom getter (visible), black T-plates, tall bottles, rectangular top and bottom micas] _I've been looking for! The one guy who was selling them on eBay in pairs, finally listed a single one. I also picked up a RCA Grey Glass vt231 Jan-Chs for comparison. I need to write up my official Ember review and I since I have nothing to directly compare it to, I'm just going to present it alongside of how the tubes change the sound overall. 

Still I'm excited to hear how the green label variant differs from my white, and how much I'll like the RCA Greyglass... seeing as it's like the exact opposite of have in there now


----------



## richard51 (Jul 30, 2017)

My salutations to all of you.... I sell my Ember v.1.2 +3 adapters+25 tubes at a good price.... all details in the selling forum... thanks

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ember-version1-2.856230/


----------



## Makiah S

richard51 said:


> My salutations to all of you.... I sell my Ember v.1.2 +3 adapters+25 tubes at a good price.... all details in the selling forum... thanks



what are you upgrading to?


----------



## richard51 (Jul 30, 2017)

I listen way more to speakers than in the past, and i already have a Sansui AU-7700, and this week i wait for a Sansui AU-x701 alpha...
 The headphone out will do the job.... I listen mostly speakers now...For people with multiple headphones , the Ember is difficult to beat, accomodating all.... I now listen only almost with the Beyerdynamic DT-150....Does not need  an headphone amplifier now...


https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ember-version1-2.856230/


----------



## thewind32 (Aug 17, 2017)

Does anyone have experience with tubes making a short sound on a cold start in the Ember? My current tube, a cv181-z emits a sound & flashes on a cold start.
From what I understand, tube flashing isn't necessarily indicative of a problem, but due to unequal cold resistance.

However, I can't seem to find information regarding the sound I hear on a cold start. It's like a short "tshhew" sound. The tube was bought new and I've experienced this since the first time I turned it on
I've had like 1 or 2 tubes before than made the same sound, but sounded softer.
Is this simply due to something like the heater voltage adjustment, or should I be more concerned?

Edit: Never mind, I asked Jeremy from G1217 and he said that the sound is due to the inductor squealing a bit with a large inrush current - nothing to be concerned about.


----------



## ledzep

New to this tube rolling , just bought my ember and wanting any recommendations on tubes if any.


----------



## Astral Abyss

ledzep said:


> New to this tube rolling , just bought my ember and wanting any recommendations on tubes if any.



You could probably ask 20 people and get 20 different answers as to what is best, but here's a short list of what my go-to tubes are in the Ember:

Russian 6N30P - The Electro Harmonix that Jeremy sells is a great starting point.  You could probably just put this tube in the Ember and never feel a need to change it.  I've got some old Foton 6N30P's that I bought from a Russian seller on ebay (electric.brilliance) and I wouldn't trade them for anything.  This guy has legit tubes, but many Russian sellers are pretty shady, so buyer beware.
Amperex made NOS 12AT7 / ECC81 - not as noisy as 12AX7 (less gain) and I think they sound better too.  And they're cheap, always a bonus.
Buy a 6SN7 adapter from Jeremy at garage1217 and expose yourself to these tubes with the Ember.  They sound wonderful in it, with low noise.  I'm usually running a 6SN7 in my Ember.  I've got a Raytheon 6SN7GT in it right now.
- my recommendation would be to start with an inexpensive NOS Raytheon (thin plates) or Tung-Sol (mouse-ear or equivalent) 6SN7GT tube from the 50s-60s.  These tubes are considered quite good and won't cost a fortune and may become your reference which you base other 6SN7s off of.  If you can find an old Russian Foton 6N8P (6SN7 equivalent) from the 50s-60s for a good price, you won't be disappointed.  If you want to stick with current production, I'd probably go with the Tung-Sol or one of the Sovtek's.

Basically, do this:
Email Jeremy and get a 6N30P, 6SN7 adapter, and a couple 6SN7 tubes.  Enjoy musical happiness.


----------



## ledzep

Astral Abyss said:


> You could probably ask 20 people and get 20 different answers as to what is best, but here's a short list of what my go-to tubes are in the Ember:
> 
> Russian 6N30P - The Electro Harmonix that Jeremy sells is a great starting point.  You could probably just put this tube in the Ember and never feel a need to change it.  I've got some old Foton 6N30P's that I bought from a Russian seller on ebay (electric.brilliance) and I wouldn't trade them for anything.  This guy has legit tubes, but many Russian sellers are pretty shady, so buyer beware.
> Amperex made NOS 12AT7 / ECC81 - not as noisy as 12AX7 (less gain) and I think they sound better too.  And they're cheap, always a bonus.
> ...



I agree we all hear different things, but thanks for the selection to try and advice it's much appreciated. Do you rate any mullard tubes or 
6DJ8 Amperex Bugle Boy Holland / Amperex orange globe ?


----------



## Astral Abyss

ledzep said:


> I agree we all hear different things, but thanks for the selection to try and advice it's much appreciated. Do you rate any mullard tubes or
> 6DJ8 Amperex Bugle Boy Holland / Amperex orange globe ?



I have a few Mullard tubes, but I really don't like any of them that much.  Sound is too mushy for me.  Every time I listen to a Mullard, I get the sensation of listening to Bob Dylan singing while putting a pillow over my head to try and drown it out.

If you can get an Amperex 6DJ8 or 6922  (ECC88 or E88CC) without getting ripped off, do it.  I have several and they're all excellent.  I didn't mention them because they're usually overpriced.  Strangely enough, the "newer" A-frame from the 70s sounds quite good and is usually a bit cheaper.


----------



## thewind32

ledzep said:


> New to this tube rolling , just bought my ember and wanting any recommendations on tubes if any.



Unless there's any glaring issue that you cannot stand with the stock tube, I would suggest spending some time to get familiar with it first, before trying other tubes if you're new to tube rolling.
Makes it easier to appreciate the differences and perhaps highlight to you what type of sonic changes you might want to look for.


----------



## ledzep

thewind32 said:


> Unless there's any glaring issue that you cannot stand with the stock tube, I would suggest spending some time to get familiar with it first, before trying other tubes if you're new to tube rolling.
> Makes it easier to appreciate the differences and perhaps highlight to you what type of sonic changes you might want to look for.



True I need to test drive this tube for a while and get used to the signature it offers, just wanting a few opinions on other tubes that seem to grab most people's attention and keep an eye out for a bargain.


----------



## rgmffn

ledzep said:


> New to this tube rolling , just bought my ember and wanting any recommendations on tubes if any.


My quick suggestion, get a 6sn7 and adaptor from Jeremy and don't look back. I've spent hundreds of dollars on the smaller 9 pin tubes, some of them NOS, and although they do sound good, the 6sn7 tube I got from Jeremy has a permanent home in my Ember.


----------



## ledzep

rgmffn said:


> My quick suggestion, get a 6sn7 and adaptor from Jeremy and don't look back. I've spent hundreds of dollars on the smaller 9 pin tubes, some of them NOS, and although they do sound good, the 6sn7 tube I got from Jeremy has a permanent home in my Ember.



Seems like a plan, thanks !


----------



## HOWIE13

You can't really fully appreciate the tube rolling capabilities and chameleon nature of Ember without listening to Octals (such as 6SN7) as well as Noval 9 pins. 
In general I find Octals more euphonic than most Novals but that's just my ears with my equipment.


----------



## DavidA

ledzep said:


> I agree we all hear different things, but thanks for the selection to try and advice it's much appreciated. Do you rate any mullard tubes or
> 6DJ8 Amperex Bugle Boy Holland / Amperex orange globe ?


I usually stay away from 6JD8/6922 tubes only because many had some channel imbalance in them but its not noticeable when used in my Lyr2.  A few other tubes you might want to look at but might be over priced are Telefunken, Reflektor and Siemens.  Agree with @Astral Abyss that Mullards can be too warm and mushy but the new production ones are not bad for the price.


----------



## ledzep

Thanks to all for your input  its much appreciated.


----------



## Makiah S

If your curious about 6sn7 I really like the Electro harmoinx New Production tube, the Black base one. I have both the Gold and the Black as well, I got a matched triod pair of the Black and I liked it a little more than the Gold pin verision,


----------



## ledzep

Mshenay said:


> If your curious about 6sn7 I really like the Electro harmoinx New Production tube, the Black base one. I have both the Gold and the Black as well, I got a matched triod pair of the Black and I liked it a little more than the Gold pin verision,



Settled on the 6N30P and the 6SN7 tubes to start with.


----------



## Astral Abyss

ledzep said:


> Settled on the 6N30P and the 6SN7 tubes to start with.



Which 6SN7 did you go with?


----------



## ledzep

Astral Abyss said:


> Which 6SN7 did you go with?


Melz  6SN7GT and a  Northern Electric one.


----------



## Makiah S

a shame to see this thread quite down, oh well... after removing the input gain attenuator I can say without a DOUBT the Ember II shreds with my HE 4! A clear step up from my NFB10ES2, getting an LCD 2.2 2012 Pre Fazor in here soon so I'm curious to see how it powers those!


----------



## Amish

Even though I do not own the Ember II any longer I still think it is one of the best hybrid amps on the market for the $ spent. I owned the Ember I and Ember II. Fantastic. For me ultimately I just prefer an amp that has an actual case. The open style builds of Garage1217 are neat but not something I care to display. If they ever get around to adding a metal case to their amps I would gladly spend even more for another Ember. I doubt that will happen though.


----------



## BucketInABucket

I just got a 6DJ8 Amperex Orange Globe for 25 quid including shipping. Looking forward to trying it out!


----------



## koover

Ok since this thread is DEAD, hopefully we can spark it up a bit.
I “may” be picking up a V2 ember. If not now, soon enough.

I have plenty of the EC88/6DJ8 variants along with the 2c51/5670. Also have a bunch of 6N3P-E and 6N3P-I

What adapters will I need to use these and are all compatible?  

If anyone is using these, how do they sound on this amp? David A commented that he was getting some chanel imbalance with the 6DJ8 variants but did anyone else have these same issues or were they good for you? 

I’m also a little concerned as I run with a LYR2 and obviously it uses 2 tubes. Using this amp will split my mostly balanced pairs and I really don’t want to buy anymore tubes as I have enough for a few lifetimes.


----------



## CZ4A

koover said:


> I have plenty of the EC88/6DJ8 variants along with the 2c51/5670. Also have a bunch of 6N3P-E and 6N3P-I
> 
> What adapters will I need to use these and are all compatible?
> 
> ...



Any ECC88/6DJ8/6922/7308 will work in the Ember. 7DJ8/PCC88 too. 12DJ8/8416 will not work since those are 12V tubes. I haven't had any channel imbalance issues when using 6DJ8s in my Sunrise except when there's a major imbalance in emissions or transconductance between the two triodes, but that's to be expected with any twin-triode.

I see 5670 to ECC88 adapters on eBay, but I've never heard of anyone using a 5670-type in a G1217 amp.


----------



## nwavesailor

CZ4A said:


> Any ECC88/6DJ8/6922/7308 will work in the Ember. 7DJ8/PCC88 too. 12DJ8/8416 will not work since those are 12V tubes. I haven't had any channel imbalance issues when using 6DJ8s in my Sunrise except when there's a major imbalance in emissions or transconductance between the two triodes, but that's to be expected with any twin-triode.
> 
> I see 5670 to ECC88 adapters on eBay, but I've never heard of anyone using a 5670-type in a G1217 amp.



 No channel imbalance for me either with a Project Starlight using 6DJ8, (6922, 7308) 6SN7, 6J5G 12AU--- and other varients. David A has some pretty nice gear and may also have mo betta ears than I do!!!


----------



## koover (Dec 27, 2017)

CZ4A said:


> Any ECC88/6DJ8/6922/7308 will work in the Ember. 7DJ8/PCC88 too. 12DJ8/8416 will not work since those are 12V tubes. I haven't had any channel imbalance issues when using 6DJ8s in my Sunrise except when there's a major imbalance in emissions or transconductance between the two triodes, but that's to be expected with any twin-triode.
> 
> I see 5670 to ECC88 adapters on eBay, but I've never heard of anyone using a 5670-type in a G1217 amp.


Thanx. I could be the first if the 5670/2C51 works because they’re excellent tubes. Better then most of the ECC88 while double/triple the cost of the 5670/2C51


----------



## koover (Dec 27, 2017)

koover said:


> Thanx. I could be the first if the 5670/2C51 works because they’re excellent tubes. Better then most of the ECC88 and double/triple the cost.


Thanks
I talk to David a lot and he said he hasn’t tried the other variants I mentioned and should probably reach out to Jeremy at Garage1217.


----------



## koover

koover said:


> Thanks
> I talk to David a lot and he said he hasn’t tried the other variants I mentioned and should probably reach out to Jeremy at Garabe 1217.


Haha. Now I’m quoting myself twice. Oops. I was responding to you @nwavesailor


----------



## DRHamp

Loving this thread as a new Ember II owner.  Currently only have the 12AU7 that came with the amp, but have 6SN7 and adapter and 6N30P on order and anxious to give them a try.


----------



## DavidA

DRHamp said:


> Loving this thread as a new Ember II owner.  Currently only have the 12AU7 that came with the amp, but have 6SN7 and adapter and 6N30P on order and anxious to give them a try.


You are one of the few that I've seen who has more DACs/amps than headphones , I think its time to get some balance in your life, add a headphone or two, or three......


----------



## koover (Jan 11, 2018)

If anyone is out there (Hello?) and there may be a few of you, I did roll some tubes in the Ember that I don't believe anyone else has.
I've used the 2C51/5670/369A variants along with the 6N3P-E, 6N3P-I variants. They sound really good but can be susceptible to a bit of noise. I personally didn't hear any channel imbalance though which is a good thing. Not a lot of noise but you can hear it with no music. The 2C51 have micro small plates and from what I was told by Jeremy from Garage is the noise could be more so than later dual triode designs with larger plates. Of course you'll need the 6N3 to ECC88 adapter. If you have them on hand, give them a try. It's just another tube that in my opinion are great, can tweak your sound even that much more.

The Tun Sol  5670/2C51's are incredible tubes that punch so far above their price point and you can get a pair that test excellently (NOS) for about $35 off of eBay. If you have $35 to "test" out some new tubes that I believe you'll like a lot if a little noise doesn't kill it for you, give it a shot fella's, or gals.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Pair-T...050232&hash=item234d514b89:g:lMYAAOSwrklVBlJC

Quite a few guys on the LYR tube rolling thread including I, have snatched these up and like them. I can only speak for myself but they have such a holographic, mid forward sound that is sublime. They've sounded really good in the Ember too.


----------



## DRHamp

DavidA said:


> You are one of the few that I've seen who has more DACs/amps than headphones , I think its time to get some balance in your life, add a headphone or two, or three......


Don't give up yet -- I do have a couple more on my radar - the Aeon Flows and Audeze El-8C


----------



## DRHamp

@koover - Do the Tung Sol 5670/2C51 require an adapter in the Ember - probably a noob question - but I am one in tube rolling.


----------



## koover

Hey man,
Yes, you'll need an adapter. Its the 6N3 to E88CC. Depending on which one you pick up, $15-$20.
Xuling Audio Labs 6N3 to ECC88 Adapterhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-5670-6N3-WE396A-instead-ECC88-6922-6DJ8-tube-adapter-for-you-amp-/191866855836


----------



## DRHamp

koover said:


> Hey man,
> Yes, you'll need an adapter. Its the 6N3 to E88CC. Depending on which one you pick up, $15-$20.
> Xuling Audio Labs 6N3 to ECC88 Adapterhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-5670-6N3-WE396A-instead-ECC88-6922-6DJ8-tube-adapter-for-you-amp-/191866855836


Thanks, I'll check it out


----------



## DRHamp

I take it, Hong Kong is the only place you can get that adapter?


----------



## Makiah S

DRHamp said:


> I take it, Hong Kong is the only place you can get that adapter?



YUP, I get a lot of my adapters out of China as well. The pricier ones are really worth the extra $4-5 I've found as the really cheap ones can be kind noisy.


----------



## rgmffn

DRHamp said:


> Loving this thread as a new Ember II owner.  Currently only have the 12AU7 that came with the amp, but have 6SN7 and adapter and 6N30P on order and anxious to give them a try.


I think you'll like the 6SN7 in the Ember. I have likely over a grand in assorted tubes, some are NOS, 8 & 9 pin for the Ember, and the Sylvania 6SN7 GTB that I got from Jeremy is easily the best sounding tube of them all. I have another Sylvania 6SN7 GTB, along with a 6SN7 GT and a Ken-Rad 6SN7 GT that I got off eBay, but none of them sound as good as the one I got from Jeremy. Is it a fluke? I don't know. But that tube is handled with care and has a permanent home in my Ember ll.


----------



## DRHamp

Thanks, I'm anxious to get that one and should have in a day or so.  I don't anticipate rolling a lot of tube but a few will be fun.  I ordered a couple of 6DJ8 variants off of Ebay - mainly to see how that works out.  Probably will try a few 6SN7s just to see the difference.  I do expect that Jeremy will be my primary source of tubes.
I look forward to the adventure and hopefully will stop well short of your tube expenditure LOL.


----------



## Makiah S

rgmffn said:


> I think you'll like the 6SN7 in the Ember. I have likely over a grand in assorted tubes, some are NOS, 8 & 9 pin for the Ember, and the Sylvania 6SN7 GTB that I got from Jeremy is easily the best sounding tube of them all. I have another Sylvania 6SN7 GTB, along with a 6SN7 GT and a Ken-Rad 6SN7 GT that I got off eBay, but none of them sound as good as the one I got from Jeremy. Is it a fluke? I don't know. But that tube is handled with care and has a permanent home in my Ember ll.





DRHamp said:


> Thanks, I'm anxious to get that one and should have in a day or so.  I don't anticipate rolling a lot of tube but a few will be fun.  I ordered a couple of 6DJ8 variants off of Ebay - mainly to see how that works out.  Probably will try a few 6SN7s just to see the difference.  I do expect that Jeremy will be my primary source of tubes.
> I look forward to the adventure and hopefully will stop well short of your tube expenditure LOL.



I'm a 6SN7 fan my self, it seems though we've lost the Dual Tube guys though... hopefully they chime in here shortly as apparently the imaging on those was amazing! Non the less I too dropped like $300-400 experimenting with EXCLUSIVELY Sylvania 6sn7s and I was fortunate to get my hands on both the Tall Bottle Bottom Getter Flashed 1944 Jan-CHS VT 231 White Label and the harder to find 1950 Green Label Tall Bottle Bottom Getter Flashed Jan-CHS VT 231

In the end I preferred the clarity of the White Label over the meatier sound of the Green Label... I don't really have to much interest in rolling any more tubes as I really just need to upgrade to a better amp overall as I'm really super happy with my Ember II as is, I would also recommend you remove/bypass the Input Attenuation as well. I found improvements to clarity when I removed/bypassed that resistor 

Though my DAC has both High and low fixed Output gain...


----------



## DRHamp (Jan 12, 2018)

I haven't done anything with the jumpers yet but I will try that this weekend sometime - thanks for the recommendation.

By the way, where did you find those 6SN7s -- EBay or is there another/better source?


----------



## Makiah S

DRHamp said:


> I haven't done anything with the jumpers yet but I will try that this weekend sometime - thanks for the recommendation.
> 
> By the way, where did you find those 6SN7s -- EBay or is there another/better source?



I roll the dice with eBay, though I got lucky and found a 100%/100%  with equal measurements in uSiemens and mA  with the *original box*, I've found the closer the measurements the better the imaging, my green Label is like 95/107 and again isn't nearly as detailed or resolving as my matched white label 

But I feel I got lucky with mine! The more expensive vendors outside of eBay do sell more closely matched tubes I believe


----------



## rgmffn

Mshenay said:


> [snipped] In the end I preferred the clarity of the White Label over the meatier sound of the Green Label... I don't really have to much interest in rolling any more tubes as I really just need to upgrade to a better amp overall as I'm really super happy with my Ember II as is, *I would also recommend you remove/bypass the Input Attenuation as well. I found improvements to clarity when I removed/bypassed that resistor*
> 
> Though my DAC has both High and low fixed Output gain...



Thanks for that recommendation. That is the only setting that I never played with.

There is definitely a difference with bypassing the resistor. It does add clarity but also seems a bit edgy to me. More SS like, I guess. With the resistance in place, it is smoother sounding, more tube like. Which I prefer. Also, without the resistance I'm just barely off the stop at around 8 o'clock for normal listening levels. It's just way too sensitive with my setup. This little amp has gobs of power.

I realize with different setups, HPs especially, others would prefer to bypass the attenuator. It just doesn't work for me.

Love my Ember. It's a tinkerers dream. And just sounds amazing!  Couldn't be happier.


----------



## koover

Mshenay said:


> I'm a 6SN7 fan my self, it seems though we've lost the Dual Tube guys though... hopefully they chime in here shortly as apparently the imaging on those was amazing! Non the less I too dropped like $300-400 experimenting with EXCLUSIVELY Sylvania 6sn7s and I was fortunate to get my hands on both the Tall Bottle Bottom Getter Flashed 1944 Jan-CHS VT 231 White Label and the harder to find 1950 Green Label Tall Bottle Bottom Getter Flashed Jan-CHS VT 231
> 
> In the end I preferred the clarity of the White Label over the meatier sound of the Green Label... I don't really have to much interest in rolling any more tubes as I really just need to upgrade to a better amp overall as I'm really super happy with my Ember II as is, *I would also recommend you remove/bypass the Input Attenuation as well. I found improvements to clarity when I removed/bypassed that resistor *
> 
> Though my DAC has both High and low fixed Output gain...


I just need some clarification if I could please.
Are you meaning to literally remove both of the little plastic jumpers on each side of the amp and run without? I'm still a little ignorant with this amp.


----------



## DavidA

koover said:


> I just need some clarification if I could please.
> Are you meaning to literally remove both of the little plastic jumpers on each side of the amp and run without? I'm still a little ignorant with this amp.



The little plastic jumpers on the sides are used to set the output resistance/impedance.
The attenuation jumpers are under the top cover and close to the RCA input jacks on the back right (labled as: adjustable input gain module and jumpers)
Ember manual: http://www.garage1217.com/MANUALS/EMBER MANUALS/EMBER II MANUAL 4-4-15.pdf


----------



## Makiah S

koover said:


> I just need some clarification if I could please.
> Are you meaning to literally remove both of the little plastic jumpers on each side of the amp and run without? I'm still a little ignorant with this amp.





DavidA said:


> The little plastic jumpers on the sides are used to set the output resistance/impedance.
> The attenuation jumpers are under the top cover and close to the RCA input jacks on the back right (labled as: adjustable input gain module and jumpers)
> Ember manual: http://www.garage1217.com/MANUALS/EMBER MANUALS/EMBER II MANUAL 4-4-15.pdf



Yeap, DavidA is correct pull off the top plate and back near the input RCAs is a set of jumpers, part of why I got more clarity is because my DAC sounds cleaner with it's lowest Fixed Output setting, using the Higher Fixed Gain output from my DAC sounds worse with any amp VS how the low gain setting is. Thankfully only my HE 4 and AKG K240 need high gain out and honestly they sound better with the Solid State Amp if and only if I run the amp with a Phase Reversed signal that's corrected via a cable,  apparently that configuration allows 100% of the amps potential to amp the left and right signals independently since they are fed out of phase. The Cable puts them back into phase and the results are a cleaner more expensive sound  BUT ONLY with my HE 4 and AKG K240, literally everything else I own sounds better with the Ember II fed Low Gain from my dac


----------



## koover

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Thank you my brothers!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## DRHamp

OK guys - another noob Ember question:
I just received a 6SN7 and adapter from Jeremy.  The adapter does not seat fully into the 9 pin socket on the Ember.  I'm afraid to force it down.  
It appears to be approx. 1/8" short of being fully seated.
A question is, is this normal?

Everything appears to work ok - except there is a low level buzz(no input) and some scratchiness when rotating the volume knob above 2 or 3 o:clock.
Is this normal? could it be related to the adapter not being full seated in the 9 pin socket?
I've tried a variety of 9 pin tubes (6DJ8, 12AU7, 6N30P) and had no noise or vol knob scratch.


----------



## Makiah S

DRHamp said:


> OK guys - another noob Ember question:
> I just received a 6SN7 and adapter from Jeremy.  The adapter does not seat fully into the 9 pin socket on the Ember.  I'm afraid to force it down.
> It appears to be approx. 1/8" short of being fully seated.
> A question is, is this normal?
> ...



That's a good question, I would take off your top plate snap a pic of what your seeing and send Jeremy a question about it. He's very responsive/interactive. He's helped me trouble shoot more than a few times! 

Your also welcome to send us the same pic, as we'd need to see what your seeing before we could help at all

I have 2 6sn7 adapters from him and neither give me any issue as for the Vol Pot Scratching it could be related to either the way the adapter is seated or the tube your using with it.


----------



## DRHamp

Mshenay said:


> Your also welcome to send us the same pic, as we'd need to see what your seeing before we could help at all



Thanks, I'll do that and post a pic in a few and will also email it to Jeremy.


----------



## rgmffn

DRHamp said:


> OK guys - another noob Ember question:
> I just received a 6SN7 and adapter from Jeremy.  The adapter does not seat fully into the 9 pin socket on the Ember.  I'm afraid to force it down.
> It appears to be approx. 1/8" short of being fully seated.
> A question is, is this normal?
> ...


I can confirm that my adapter is about 3/16 of an inch from completely seating also. I don't want to push any harder either. It seems to work ok though.

I get volume pot scratchiness also but I have the input capacitors bypassed so not sure about that one.

The low level buzz I had also when going to the 6sn7. Jeremy suggested it might be ambient electrical noise. I got a pair of his aluminum chassis plates per his suggestion and that all but eliminated it for me.

It's best though is to get with him to see what he has to say about your particular concerns.


----------



## thewind32

DRHamp said:


> OK guys - another noob Ember question:
> I just received a 6SN7 and adapter from Jeremy.  The adapter does not seat fully into the 9 pin socket on the Ember.  I'm afraid to force it down.
> It appears to be approx. 1/8" short of being fully seated.
> A question is, is this normal?



It is normal. I've asked Jeremy who told me there is nothing wrong after I sent him a photo. Here's how mine looks like


----------



## DRHamp (Jan 17, 2018)

Here are pics:


----------



## DRHamp (Jan 17, 2018)

They look about the same so noise is likely tube.  Sent to Jeremy also.

As @thewind32 said and Jeremy has confirmed that the pins not fully seating is totally normal and not a problem. The noise is likely interference from some close-by electronics.


----------



## mandrake50 (Jan 17, 2018)

rgmffn said:


> I can confirm that my adapter is about 3/16 of an inch from completely seating also. I don't want to push any harder either. It seems to work ok though.
> 
> I get volume pot scratchiness also but I have the input capacitors bypassed so not sure about that one.QUOTE]
> .



The manual mentions that some noise from the volume control is likely with the input caps bypassed. I heard it on my Ember. I decided that the difference in sound derived from bypassing the input caps was not worth it.
Try putting them back into the circuit and see if it makes a difference. I am fairly certain that it will.


----------



## DRHamp

mandrake50 said:


> The manual mentions that some noise from the volume control is likely with the input caps bypassed. I heard it on my Ember. I decided that the difference in sound derived from bypassing the input caps was not worth it.
> Try putting them back into the circuit and see if it makes a difference. I am fairly certain that it will



I have all of the jumpers in their default position but I will verify that the input caps bypass jumpers are in the right position.


----------



## Makiah S (Jan 19, 2018)

DRHamp said:


> I have all of the jumpers in their default position but I will verify that the input caps bypass jumpers are in the right position.



With my HD 800 and the amp set to Bypass both Input Capcitors and Resistors I don't have too much vol pot scratching, I'm also finding the sounds is a little... less hard with better impact/resolve! Pretty nice actually, I never noticed a difference with my HE 4. The LCD 2 isn't quite as well, so with 35R out and .1R out I don't have any real VolPot noise, but my entire system is running from a Power conditioner so that might help keep things quite


----------



## rgmffn

mandrake50 said:


> The manual mentions that some noise from the volume control is likely with the input caps bypassed. I heard it on my Ember. I decided that the difference in sound derived from bypassing the input caps was not worth it.
> Try putting them back into the circuit and see if it makes a difference. I am fairly certain that it will.



In my case, I don't even use the volume on the amp so the scratchiness isn't a problem. I sit a ways away from it so I needed a solution. The solution was an Emotiva Control Freak. It's a nice little piece of equipment. Feels great and let's you adjust the volume ever so gradually. It really does work well. So, that's why I have the input caps bypassed. Just looking for that _little bit _of extra cleanliness.


----------



## DRHamp

Mshenay said:


> With my HD 800 and the amp set to Bypass both Input Capcitors and Resistors I don't have too much vol pot scratching, I'm also finding the sounds is a little... less hard with better impact/resolve! Pretty nice actually, I never noticed a difference with my HE 4. The LCD 2 isn't quite as well, so with 35R out and .1R out I don't have any real VolPot noise, but my entire system is running from a Power conditioner so that might help keep things quite


I have the vol pot scratching only with the knob at 2+ o:clock and it's not bad - and again I don't have the caps or resistors bypassed.  I will experiment a little and bypass them to see if I perceive an improvement with my Atticus HP which are dang good as is. I'll let you know what I think - btw, I wish I could describe the differences I hear as well as you.


----------



## DRHamp

rgmffn said:


> In my case, I don't even use the volume on the amp so the scratchiness isn't a problem. I sit a ways away from it so I needed a solution. The solution was an Emotiva Control Freak. It's a nice little piece of equipment. Feels great and let's you adjust the volume ever so gradually. It really does work well. So, that's why I have the input caps bypassed. Just looking for that _little bit _of extra cleanliness.


I couldn't find the Emotiva Control Freak available anywhere, guess they have stopped making it.


----------



## rgmffn

DRHamp said:


> I couldn't find the Emotiva Control Freak available anywhere, guess they have stopped making it.



Oh nooo....  I love that thing!  (Actually, I have two). I've had them a few years and haven't looked at availability lately. I couldn't do without that thing. I'm constantly adjusting it almost per song. I'm wondering why they would discontinue them. I don't think there is anything else out there that would equal them in quality. That's a bummer!


----------



## Makiah S

DRHamp said:


> I have the vol pot scratching only with the knob at 2+ o:clock and it's not bad - and again I don't have the caps or resistors bypassed.  I will experiment a little and bypass them to see if I perceive an improvement with my Atticus HP which are dang good as is. I'll let you know what I think - btw, I wish I could describe the differences I hear as well as you.



Thanks! I'm alright, everything takes time and you can only get better lol!

Interestingly I had a little noise at 2'oClock as well with my HD 800 but that was only when I'd whip up from full counter clockwise [7 oClock] to full clock wise, as I'd pass 2oClock I'd get some noise. I think it has to do with how the Pot is set, it's probably a log pot and 2'oClock is where the resistance starts to decrease more in relation to the % of the dials turn ect... All in all not bad at all!


----------



## mandrake50

When I bypassed the input caps I could hear some noise over the entire range. Not bad, but certainly there. No effect on the music when NOT moving the pot. With the input caps in the circuit , I can hear a bit of noise when sweeping the pot from one end to the other, but it on the order of 90% plus better.

I played with adding and removing the caps. There was no perceived change in transparency or FR. With that, my decision was to keep them inline and hear less noise when adjusting the pot...

I am sure the feature was provided to satisfy me and my OCD brethren here. I thought perhaps there might be some bit of the elusive last bit of clarity.. Of course I had to play with it.  It simply made pretty close to zero audible difference to me.


----------



## DRHamp (Jan 22, 2018)

Someone referred to this tube rolling process as a rabbit hole and now I understand why.  I've played with a variety of tubes so far - 12AU7, several 6DJ8s, several 6SN7s, 6SL7, 6N30P, and 12AX7 - 9 tubes in all and they really are very different.  I do have a couple more ordered based on what I've found so far.  Out of the 9 tubes, 2 really stand out for me in terms of my sonic preference.  One is a 12AX7 Bugle Boy and the other a Sylvania 6SN7GT VT-231 JAN-CHS.  I will not attempt to describe how the are different sonically other than, to my ear, the are much more open and clear, instrument separation and placement really stands out.  Interestingly, the 6SN7 was purchased as a matched pair, both Sylvanian VT-231 JAN-CHS.  One of the pair, I didn't care for as it seemed like a veil was placed over the music - lacking detail and clarity - at least to me that was interesting.  Going forward, I'll focus on the two tubes I like and see if I can identify a preference between the two.  So, I found two that I like - shouldn't I stop there?  Probably.............. but.............

Is that the norm - two like tube with very similar meaurements may sound very different.


----------



## DavidA

@DRHamp, sometimes you can't trust the "measurements" that a seller indicates but these measurements are usually only to indicate the life left so I'd say yes that 2 tubes with similar measurement can sound different.  You might also want to clean the pins of the tube that sounds bad since oxidation can have some effect on how a tube sounds unless you are already using Deoxit.


----------



## DRHamp (Jan 22, 2018)

DavidA said:


> @DRHamp, sometimes you can't trust the "measurements" that a seller indicates but these measurements are usually only to indicate the life left so I'd say yes that 2 tubes with similar measurement can sound different.  You might also want to clean the pins of the tube that sounds bad since oxidation can have some effect on how a tube sounds unless you are already using Deoxit.


Uh oh, what is Deoxit? ,,, and thanks, I will try cleaning the pins and give it another try.  i see several different kinds of Deoxit - just contact cleaner?


----------



## DavidA

DRHamp said:


> Uh oh, what is Deoxit? ,,, and thanks, I will try cleaning the pins and give it another try.  i see several different kinds of Deoxit - just contact cleaner?


I usually use the "RED" cleaner on tubes when I first get them and then the "GOLD" preserver about once a month when I change tubes.  I also use the "gold" for headphone jacks and RCA jacks about once a month.  I got the small bottle with the brush which is probably going to last my life time since its doesn't look like i use any.


I've been using these 2 bottles for 3+ years and they are still quite full.


----------



## DRHamp

@DavidA Thanks, I ordered a sample pack that has both of those and I'll use it right away.


----------



## nwavesailor

Please go very light when using any solution on tube sockets or pins. I have replaced more than a few 9 pin and octal sockets where folks have been a little heavy handed on application. A little is good............. but a lot is NOT better!


----------



## DavidA

DRHamp said:


> @DavidA Thanks, I ordered a sample pack that has both of those and I'll use it right away.


@nwavesailor makes a good point, don't use too much, its why my two bottles look like they are still new.
For tubes that you want to clean let the "red" cleaner soak in over night and wipe of any excess before using the tube since you don't want any grit/grime getting into the socket and use the "gold" only on clean pins, RCA jacks and headphone jack once in a while (a month or more for me)


----------



## DRHamp

@nwavesailor & @DavidA  Got it -- thanks for the tips


----------



## bilboda

rgmffn said:


> Oh nooo....  I love that thing!  (Actually, I have two). I've had them a few years and haven't looked at availability lately. I couldn't do without that thing. I'm constantly adjusting it almost per song. I'm wondering why they would discontinue them. I don't think there is anything else out there that would equal them in quality. That's a bummer!


The Schitt SYS will do the job just as well.


----------



## rgmffn

bilboda said:


> The Schitt SYS will do the job just as well.


 Yes, I have one of those but it just wouldn't be the same. Not even close. That Emotiva knob feels Devine in the way it works. The sys would be clunky to use as much as I adjust the vol. And the Emotiva looks so much better sitting there within reach. I really love that Control Freak. But thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## HOWIE13 (Feb 3, 2018)

I use a Sennheiser HZR 62 which I find doesn't intrude on the sound and allows channel balance control too. The lead is too long for me and I've reduced the size and reconnected with a 6.3mm plug.


----------



## Makiah S

DavidA said:


> I usually use the "RED" cleaner on tubes when I first get them and then the "GOLD" preserver about once a month when I change tubes.  I also use the "gold" for headphone jacks and RCA jacks about once a month.  I got the small bottle with the brush which is probably going to last my life time since its doesn't look like i use any.
> 
> I've been using these 2 bottles for 3+ years and they are still quite full.



I literally just came here to say the same thing, ironically another hawaiin, or used to be islander directed me to use a little to clean my tubes

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DeoxIT-D-a...319169&hash=item418887b81a:g:NFEAAOSw8lBTonep

I wasn't as diligent in waiting. I cleaned with the red and applied a little elbow grease with a qTip wrapped in micro fiber glass towel, took about 6-7 mins to do that. Let it sit for like 3 mins then gently applied a little gold, different qTip different micro fiber cloth

An my amp didn't xPlode and it does sound a little sharper than before, though I can't say how much is the cleaned tube and how much is this silver cable... either way I'm happy as a clam! An holy smokes the bass on my Ember II is something else... WOW I can't say I remember this textures previously... 

I also have a "classic" Grade Psvane CV181-T Mark II ValveTube in bound to me... figured why not only and this is a funny word but only cost me like $108 shipped from China, I did make an offer though

I heard a pair of them in a Feliks Audio last weekend and figured it's high time I try a new tube for my Ember II... hopefully it'll be at least as good as my NOS 1940 Sylvania GT White label... if it's better YAY my beloved white label can go in as a back up tube or find a home in a future Saga pre amp purchase


----------



## DRHamp

Mshenay said:


> I also have a "classic" Grade Psvane CV181-T Mark II ValveTube in bound to me... figured why not only and this is a funny word but only cost me like $108 shipped from China, I did make an offer though



I will be interested in hearing your comments about this tube in the Ember - have been considering one myself.


----------



## koover (Feb 4, 2018)

Has anyone rolled any of he 2C51 variants? Seems like I’m a rare one using this tube. They’re excellent and not to expensive, especially the Tung Sol. Need an adapter though. If you guys haven’t tried them, it’s definitely worth the roll. Opens up many possibilities.
Like there’s not that many now


----------



## DRHamp

koover said:


> Has anyone rolled any of he 2C51 variants? Seems like I’m a rare one using this tube. They’re excellent and not to expensive, especially the Tung Sol. Need an adapter though. If you guys haven’t tried them, it’s definitely worth the roll. Opens up many possibilities.



I have the adapter, just haven't bought the tubes yet.


----------



## ericr

Hmm, before trying a 2C51 (or the similar 5670 & 396A) it's probably best to run the idea by Jeremy at Garage 1217.  The Ember's ability to adapt to a wide variety of tubes with differing voltages, heater currents and bias requirements is definitely magical, but I think the magic only goes so far.


----------



## Astral Abyss

When you guys get bored of the 6SN7, there's always the dual 6J5G to slip down the rabbit hole into.  Be careful though, there's not many that make it back, myself included.  The 6J5G is one half of the 6SN7.  Here's a pic of my current setup I just took.


----------



## Astral Abyss

Also, if you look really closely at the photo, you can see my head, wearing a pair of Ori's, floating in the reflection.  Eerie.


----------



## koover

ericr said:


> Hmm, before trying a 2C51 (or the similar 5670 & 396A) it's probably best to run the idea by Jeremy at Garage 1217.  The Ember's ability to adapt to a wide variety of tubes with differing voltages, heater currents and bias requirements is definitely magical, but I think the magic only goes so far.


I already did that. This is what Jeremy responded back to me.

That is one of the few combos we have not tried so it falls into one of those - it should work with the proper adapter categories. With the 2c51 have micro small plates, I imagine it would be susceptible to noise, a lot more so than later dual triode designs with larger plates. Could be a fun adventure

I’ve rolled plenty of these variants into the ember and they’re fine. There is just a tad bit of noise but just play around with both sets of jumpers and I eliminated all the noise. They sound very good especially the Tun Sol 2C51. They’re not an arm and a leg either so giving them a shot doesn’t break the bank.


----------



## nwavesailor

Astral Abyss said:


> When you guys get bored of the 6SN7, there's always the dual 6J5G to slip down the rabbit hole into. Be careful though, there's not many that make it back, myself included. The 6J5G is one half of the 6SN7.



Astral Abyss is correct. The 6J5G's are really nice tubes and the rabbit hole is _very_ long and deep!  

The same adapter can be used for 6J5G, 6P5, 6C5G and others.


----------



## Henrikfi

Little off tonic here, sorry!
Anyone else using LCD3 with the Ember? Just went down the tube amp rabbit hole, and I’m not going back.


----------



## DavidA

Henrikfi said:


> Little off tonic here, sorry!
> Anyone else using LCD3 with the Ember? Just went down the tube amp rabbit hole, and I’m not going back.


I use my LCD-2 with the Ember once in awhile but I usually use the LCD-2 with the headphone jack of my UD-301, just a slightly fuller sound to me.


----------



## jaywillin

I'd sold the project sunrise iii and spent some time in the land of solid state, but the box of tubes that was leftover from the sunrise, kept calling.......
I decided to go ahead and go all in, and got an ember


----------



## rgmffn

jaywillin said:


> I'd sold the project sunrise iii and spent some time in the land of solid state, but the box of tubes that was leftover from the sunrise, kept calling.......
> I decided to go ahead and go all in, and got an ember



Congrats!  Can I just say I really love my 6sn7 driven Ember.


----------



## nwavesailor

Welcome back, jaywillin!


----------



## Makiah S

Astral Abyss said:


> When you guys get bored of the 6SN7, there's always the dual 6J5G to slip down the rabbit hole into.  Be careful though, there's not many that make it back, myself included.  The 6J5G is one half of the 6SN7.  Here's a pic of my current setup I just took.





nwavesailor said:


> Astral Abyss is correct. The 6J5G's are really nice tubes and the rabbit hole is _very_ long and deep!
> 
> The same adapter can be used for 6J5G, 6P5, 6C5G and others.



Haha, I may or may not get into that hole! I'm pretty content with how well my modded[re-capped] APPJ pa1502A drives my dynamics and how the Ember II does my planars... but who knows before I upgrade to another dedicated planar amp I may go dual tube!



Henrikfi said:


> Little off tonic here, sorry!
> Anyone else using LCD3 with the Ember? Just went down the tube amp rabbit hole, and I’m not going back.





DavidA said:


> I use my LCD-2 with the Ember once in awhile but I usually use the LCD-2 with the headphone jack of my UD-301, just a slightly fuller sound to me.



I also use my Ember II with my LCD 2 and the MX4 and from time to time my HE 4



jaywillin said:


> I'd sold the project sunrise iii and spent some time in the land of solid state, but the box of tubes that was leftover from the sunrise, kept calling.......
> I decided to go ahead and go all in, and got an ember





rgmffn said:


> Congrats!  Can I just say I really love my 6sn7 driven Ember.



Welcome back! Speaking of 6sn7s I just got my Psvane 6sn7 replacement in! It sounded DIVINE!!! With the MX4 and I'm still testing it with my LCD 2, I'll swap my white label 1940s 6sn7 back in shortly, but I'm hoping the Psvanne is slightly warmer/full with the same massive sound stage an detail as my white label 1940s Syl


----------



## koover

@Astral Abyss 
Have you had an opportunity to try out the 6N3P-E yet on the Ember or any amp you have?
I’m a huge proponent of these tubes and want to share the wealth (because you’ll save so much money) because it will assist anyone going down that rabbit hole without filing for bankruptcy.


----------



## DRHamp

koover said:


> Have you had an opportunity to try out the 6N3P-E yet on the Ember or any amp you have?
> I’m a huge proponent of these tubes and want to share the wealth (because you’ll save so much money) because it will assist anyone going down that rabbit hole without filing for bankruptcy.



Do you buy them off EBay?  If so, any seller you would recommend?


----------



## Astral Abyss

koover said:


> @Astral Abyss
> Have you had an opportunity to try out the 6N3P-E yet on the Ember or any amp you have?
> I’m a huge proponent of these tubes and want to share the wealth (because you’ll save so much money) because it will assist anyone going down that rabbit hole without filing for bankruptcy.



Not yet.  My friend visiting from Texas (the one that came to the meet) is currently occupying my man-cave where all my gear is at.  I should have time to check it out starting this Sunday.  I'm looking forward to it.


----------



## koover (Feb 20, 2018)

@DHRamp
I’ve bought 3 separate lots from this seller. They’re solid and reliable.
https://m.ebay.com/itm/8-x-6N3P-E-2...379759?hash=item28214ce6af:g:QkoAAOSw3ZRY9yhQ

The thing is, it will take 2-4 weeks to receive them. It’s an incredible deal but they’ll last you a lifetime if you like them which I believe you will. You’ll also need the below adapter.
https://m.ebay.com/itm/2Pc-Gold-pla...792421&hash=item2edce7ee49:g:lKAAAOSwOVpXV4q0

Same time frame to receive. With this adapter, you have so many more opportunities to roll more tubes especially this one. Cheap too and you get 2!
https://m.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Pair-Tun...050232&hash=item234d514b89:g:lMYAAOSwrklVBlJC

If you were to buy the adapter, the lot of Relektor 6N3P-E and the Tung Sols?... you’d be set for life for under $100 with all the shipping costs included. That’s cheaper then 1 set of tubes that are descent. I truly believe the 6N3P-E is just as good as any sub $100 tube (s) out there. But that’s my opinion of course and many others in the LYR tube rolling thread. 

Regards
Greg


----------



## DRHamp

@koover 

Ok, thanks man -- I had the adapter and just ordered the tubes.


----------



## jaywillin

Welcome back! Speaking of 6sn7s I just got my* Psvane 6sn7* replacement in! It sounded DIVINE!!! With the MX4 and I'm still testing it with my LCD 2, I'll swap my white label 1940s 6sn7 back in shortly, but I'm hoping the Psvanne is slightly warmer/full with the same massive sound stage an detail as my white label 1940s Syl[/QUOTE]

i'd been thinking about giving a Psvane a try, thanks for the info !


----------



## DRHamp (Feb 24, 2018)

Tried my first 2C51 (Tungsol) in the Ember today and I'm impressed.  For the money, this is going to be hard to beat - excellent clarity and separation for little $.  I have another Tungsol to try later and a couple of JAN Philips 2C51s to try.
It is quieter than I expected and has required no jumper changes - I need to give it some more time, but It could easily rival my favorite, more expensive 6SN7.  Thanks for the push @koover

I continue to be impressed - I have one of the JAN Philips 2C51s in now and if not equal to the Tungsol it is very very close -- for <$10 - I like it!


----------



## DRHamp

I spoke with Jeremy (Garage1217) today inquiring about the possibility of Garage 1217 making and offering a 2C51 adapter for 
the Ember II.  I found the quality if the adapters that I have purchased from China to be questionable.

Jeremy's response: " I am happy to do a custom run but would need to get a small group buy together if possible.  just 4-5 people or just a group that shows a lot of interest. Let me know on this and we can get rolling "

So, I'm throwing it out here to see if there is any interest.  I know @koover is in and at least one other and myself makes three.  With one or two more, we can probably make this happen.  Send me a pm or post a reply here if you are interested.

These 2C51 tubes are relatively inexpensive and my experience is that they really sound good in the Ember.


----------



## ericr

Count me in.  

Having DACs from MHDT Labs, I already have a sizable collection of 2C51/5670 type tubes 

With Garage 1217 being the vendor, I assuming the price is reasonable (and am certain the quality will be  great!).

The Sylvania 6SN7W has been my end-game tube for the Ember - it will be interesting to see how the 2C51 types compare.


----------



## DRHamp

OK, we now have four who are interested - @DRHamp, @koover, @ericr, and @Astral Abyss - thanks guy for that.  Maybe 1 or 2 more will come onboard in the next day or so.

Once we are set, I will contact Jeremy to determine the process and price should he decide to proceed.

I have a couple of 6SN7s that I like a lot, and a couple of these 2C51s that closely rival them.  I would like to try one of the Psvane 6SN7s - oh well, the hole gets deeper and deeper.


----------



## jaywillin

DRHamp said:


> OK, we now have four who are interested - @DRHamp, @koover, @ericr, and @Astral Abyss - thanks guy for that.  Maybe 1 or 2 more will come onboard in the next day or so.
> 
> Once we are set, I will contact Jeremy to determine the process and price should he decide to proceed.
> 
> I have a couple of 6SN7s that I like a lot, and a couple of these 2C51s that closely rival them.  I would like to try one of the Psvane 6SN7s - oh well, the hole gets deeper and deeper.



count me in, just let me know what i need to do


----------



## DRHamp

Jeremy is working on the design and will get back with more information regarding price and ordering process when he is done.  Thank you all for your interest.


----------



## koover

DRHamp said:


> Jeremy is working on the design and will get back with more information regarding price and ordering process when he is done.  Thank you all for your interest.



You're most welcome man!
Wow, that was quick. Is he your uncle or something?  
In all seriousness, this is GREAT news and a really quick turnaround. Jeremy's a great guy obviously and with him doing this for a few of us?...just goes to show exactly that. The more people who take the chance rolling in these variants, which they should, the more adapters he'll sell. I for one am really looking forward to a customized adapter for this tube variant and specifically for this amp. Thanx for stepping up bro!


----------



## Astral Abyss

This is going to be great.  I hope we can get enough interest that Jeremy considers making this, and others like it, a permanently available item.


----------



## koover (Feb 28, 2018)

Astral Abyss said:


> This is going to be great.  I hope we can get enough interest that Jeremy considers making this, and others like it, a permanently available item.


All the 2C51/5670 tubes are so underrated. Rollers really need to give these a shot. Everything from the Tung Sol 2C51 which are inexpensive ($35 a pair)  up to a really good singke of  the WE JW 2C51 ($50) or comparable just kill it. Give them a try guys. You can get in on this and Jeremy will make the adapters for us. I use this variant more then anything else in the Ember cause they’re just that good. Great mids, great bass response, detailed, extended treble but smooth yet on the warmer side for the WE. The Tung Sol Mids are some of the best I’ve experienced. There’s so much out there and not just the 2 I mentioned. The Bendix 2C51 pioneer eclipse is crazy good but hard to find. If you can, snag it up.


----------



## thewind32

Can I get some comparisons of 2C51 & 6SN7? More specifically I'm using a Baldwin (Sylvania) 6SN7GTB in my Ember with a HD600.
I know there are better ones out there but I'm satisfied with what I hear, although I still remain open to other tubes (especially if they're cheap & good haha)


----------



## jaywillin

just in : a ken rad 6f8g , one of my favorites !


----------



## koover

thewind32 said:


> Can I get some comparisons of 2C51 & 6SN7? More specifically I'm using a Baldwin (Sylvania) 6SN7GTB in my Ember with a HD600.
> I know there are better ones out there but I'm satisfied with what I hear, although I still remain open to other tubes (especially if they're cheap & good haha)


I’d chime in but never have used these specific tubes. I have so many tubes already plus with the 2C51, I don’t feel a need for any other tubes. Plus the 6N3P, 6N3P-E, 6N3P-I and the 6N3P Fonton, they’re all pennies on the dollar and compare and rival any ECC88/6922 variants and even some of the E88CC’s that I own. I’m a happy camper. 
Someone else will have to chime in.


----------



## nwavesailor

I have the National Union and Tung Sol round plate 6F8G versions but have not tried the Ken Rad.

I am TRYING to resist the 2C51 frenzy with so many other 6SN7, B65, 6DJ8, (6922, 7308) 12A**, dual Visseaux and Tung Sol 6J5, 6C5 and dual C3G and others.

Ken Rad made great tubes so I'm sure it's a good one!


----------



## nwavesailor

I will wait for Astral Abyss to go down the 2C51 rabbit hole. We seem to like similar tubes and if he is blown away, I MAY have to join in the reindeer games at some point!


----------



## jaywillin

nwavesailor said:


> I have the National Union and Tung Sol round plate 6F8G versions but have not tried the Ken Rad.
> 
> I am TRYING to resist the 2C51 frenzy with so many other 6SN7, B65, 6DJ8, (6922, 7308) 12A**, dual Visseaux and Tung Sol 6J5, 6C5 and dual C3G and others.
> 
> Ken Rad made great tubes so I'm sure it's a good one!



had a national union, sadly, it died !!   sniff, sniff........


----------



## DavidA

@jaywillin, bummer about the national union


----------



## DRHamp (Feb 28, 2018)

thewind32 said:


> Can I get some comparisons of 2C51 & 6SN7? More specifically I'm using a Baldwin (Sylvania) 6SN7GTB in my Ember with a HD600.
> I know there are better ones out there but I'm satisfied with what I hear, although I still remain open to other tubes (especially if they're cheap & good haha)



I am terrible at putting to words what I hear.

I listen for clarity where the bass, mids, and treble are present but not distracting in any way.  I want depth and width and want to be able to place instruments and vocals where I
feel they should be and in a way that is pleasent to my ear.(maybe that's "soundstage" maybe not).

I have several 6SN7s and two of them stand out for me and have generally been my "go-to" tubes.  Both are Sylvania JAN-CHS-6SN7GT/VT231, one is a green label and one a white label
- both are great, one a little noisier than the other but that's only evident when no signal is being applied to the amp.
Both have excellent clarity and detail, somewhat warm, and certainly my favorite 6SN7s so far.

After reading posts from @koover about the 2C51, I jumped in a bought one of the cheap Chinese adapters and 4 of the 2C51 tubes - 2 are TungSols and 2 are JAN Philips. 
I was pleasantly surprised as they fit my listening preferences well and certainly rivaled if not equaled my preferred 6SN7s.  I want to do some further testing with other
6SN7s and 2C51s as time allows.

If I had just stuck with my excellent solid state amp and not dipped my toe into this tube-rolling adventure, I'm sure I would have been perfectly happy.
I don't need a better sounding tube than the ones I have ...... but maybe there is that tube that will make me go "WOW - AMAZING" and I guess that I will keep looking for it

My 2 cents FWIW


----------



## Astral Abyss

DRHamp said:


> I am terrible at putting to words what I hear.
> 
> I listen for clarity where the bass, mids, and treble are present but not distracting in any way.  I want depth and width and want to be able to place instruments and vocals where I
> feel they should be and in a way that is pleasent to my ear.(maybe that's "soundstage" maybe not).
> ...



I have those 2 Sylvania 6SN7 tubes.  They are good tubes.  If you want to try some tubes that I like even more... and are reasonably priced... try the Raytheon thin plate, bottom getter 6SN7GT and the Tung-Sol "mouse ear" 6SN7GT.  If you look carefully can find the Tung Sol without the ears, but its the same tube and sounds the same.  It is my favorite 6SN7 tube.  Raytheon is a close 2nd.


----------



## DRHamp (Feb 28, 2018)

Astral Abyss said:


> I have those 2 Sylvania 6SN7 tubes. They are good tubes. If you want to try some tubes that I like even more... and are reasonably priced... try the Raytheon thin plate, bottom getter 6SN7GT and the Tung-Sol "mouse ear" 6SN7GT. If you look carefully can find the Tung Sol without the ears, but its the same tube and sounds the same. It is my favorite 6SN7 tube. Raytheon is a close 2nd.



I'll see if I can find them --- thanks

Found and ordered a couple of the TungSols -- seems the Raytheons are harder to find


----------



## DRHamp

I read the following in the 6SN7  Identification thread:
"
GTA: maximum anode dissipation upgraded to 5W (the GT is rated for 2.5W) 
GTB: identical to the GTA, but with a controlled heater warm up time for use in equipment with 600mA heater strings

This is significant because it means that a circuit designed around the 6SN7GTA/GTB cannot have 6SN7GTs substituted into it. Substituting a GT in place of a GTA/GTB in your equipment will precipitate its rapid destruction and possibly damage your equipment."

I think I understand this and would assume that the reverse is not true - you can use 6SN7GTA or 6SN6GTB in the Ember in place of a 6SN7GT?  Am I correct here?


----------



## DavidA

DRHamp said:


> I read the following in the 6SN7  Identification thread:
> "
> GTA: maximum anode dissipation upgraded to 5W (the GT is rated for 2.5W)
> GTB: identical to the GTA, but with a controlled heater warm up time for use in equipment with 600mA heater strings
> ...


Should send the question to the man (Jeremy) if you haven't already done so


----------



## ericr (Mar 2, 2018)

DRHamp said:


> I read the following in the 6SN7  Identification thread:
> "
> GTA: maximum anode dissipation upgraded to 5W (the GT is rated for 2.5W)
> GTB: identical to the GTA, but with a controlled heater warm up time for use in equipment with 600mA heater strings
> ...



Yes, the 6SN7GT, GTA & GTB all work fine in the Ember II.

See a long list of compatible tubes in the manual!

A link to the manuals for all Garage 1217 amps is found here:

http://garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_009.htm

In general the older 6SN7/6SN7GT sound better than their GTA or GTB counterparts.


----------



## DRHamp

An update on the 2C51 adapter from garage1217 - I received the following from Jeremy this evening:

"Just about done with the PCB layout - been under the weather this week and slammed with builds. Next step - ordering  Will keep you posted !"

So, progress is being made.
Cheers


----------



## jaywillin

DRHamp said:


> An update on the 2C51 adapter from garage1217 - I received the following from Jeremy this evening:
> 
> "Just about done with the PCB layout - been under the weather this week and slammed with builds. Next step - ordering  Will keep you posted !"
> 
> ...


----------



## Astral Abyss

DRHamp said:


> An update on the 2C51 adapter from garage1217 - I received the following from Jeremy this evening:
> 
> "Just about done with the PCB layout - been under the weather this week and slammed with builds. Next step - ordering  Will keep you posted !"
> 
> ...



Great news!  I know this is going to turn out amazing.


----------



## nwavesailor

Astral Abyss said:


> Great news! I know this is going to turn out amazing.



I will wait for AA's take on these tubes before I go down this 2C51 rabbit hole!

I just tried a dual C3G setup. The detail is stunning but I may need a touch more bass.  I love the detail but it may be a bit thin for me...............we'll see.


----------



## koover (Mar 8, 2018)

nwavesailor said:


> I will wait for AA's take on these tubes before I go down this 2C51 rabbit hole!
> 
> I just tried a dual C3G setup. The detail is stunning but I may need a touch more bass.  I love the detail but it may be a bit thin for me...............we'll see.


Start diggin
There are so many 2C51 variants where the bass will punch a hole through your ears.
Have your tried the 6N3P-E or Foton?
Super cheap ($10 per set) with quality that matches tubes that are high value.
If you like great mids, the Tung-Sol 2C51 is as good as it gets. Then there’s the Western Electrics where a bit warm, very detailed and smooth. Some of the best sounding tubes on my gear  So much out there.


----------



## DRHamp

Late update from Jeremy re: 2C51 adapter project:

"Layout is finished - will run a test just to verify all is good tomorrow. Will then order PCB's. Will be about 2 weeks after that they will be good to go!"


"Pin test was successful (not rocket science but a must to test) boards ordered! Slightly more complex of an adapter than one would initially think to be versatile and take advantage of the 5670 center shield. "

"Just a sneak peak at the behind the scenes pin / socket compatibility testing"



 

Jeremy laughingly said to tell you guys that the above image is just his pin test, not the finished product == LOL


----------



## ericr

Darn, I kinda liked the look.


----------



## Astral Abyss

ericr said:


> Darn, I kinda liked the look.


Looks like something from War of the Worlds.


----------



## koover

Astral Abyss said:


> Looks like something from War of the Worlds.


Actually it looks like one of those machines/monsters from the Matrix movies.
Anyway, Jeremy is doing the community a solid and I for one appreciate it.


----------



## rgmffn

I. Am. Done.

This guy has more detail and air with crystal clear forward vocals surpassing each of my other five 6sn7 tubes. 

Even though Kevin doesn't advertise that these are NOS, having been found in a warehouse, in Brazil... in the jungle, I'm just wondering. 
Being that they/it came in the original box, looks pretty pristine, and the fact that now having about 50hrs on it, I swear it's sounding even better. 
I'm wondering how you can have a tube from the 60's that is used, but still have the original box. But I'm not complaining. At his price and the way it performs, this thing is a steal!

Thanks to everyone here for sharing your stories.


----------



## 55Powers

rgmffn said:


> I. Am. Done.
> 
> This guy has more detail and air with crystal clear forward vocals surpassing each of my other five 6sn7 tubes.
> 
> ...



Interesting, what 6H8C are those excactly?


----------



## DRHamp (Mar 15, 2018)

Post removed


----------



## rgmffn (Mar 15, 2018)

55Powers said:


> Interesting, what 6H8C are those excactly?



60's Russian. Interestingly, the picture on his page doesn't 'exactly' match the one I received. I'm not sure what that says about his stock. Then again, as much as I know the different appearance may mean absolutely nothing. Also, mine has this fine coating on the glass, like paint overspray, that has a slight green hue. You can see some of it in my pic above. Not sure what that is either.
Here's the link. Hope that's ok.
https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/early-russian-6h8c-6sn7

Edit to add:  I've been listening to it this afternoon. Man does that tube sound good.


----------



## 55Powers

More than fine, thanks a lot.

NIB @ 30 USD... damn.

What 6SN7s did you compare it to?


----------



## rgmffn

55Powers said:


> More than fine, thanks a lot.
> 
> NIB @ 30 USD... damn.
> 
> What 6SN7s did you compare it to?



It was compared to 

2 Sylvania 6sn7 GTB's
Ken-Rad 6sn7 GT
Sylvania 6sn7 GT
Tung-Sol 6sn7 GT Mouse Ears

Of the 2 Syl GTB's one is a standout. It's notable feature is outstanding bass. The Ken-Rad is... not bad. The Mouse Ears is brighter overall with great detail. The Syl GT is the worst sounding of the lot probably. It was cheap. . 

The the Russian tube has the best characteristics of all the others in one package. I spoke of the vocals and detail but the bass is also outstanding. Tight and textured. 

I don't see how anyone could go wrong trying one at that price. It sounds exceptional in my setup.


----------



## Astral Abyss

I'm curious about the silk-screened 6SN7GT on Russian tubes.  I've never seen them do that before.  It would be like the USA silk-screening Russian equivalents on tubes during the Cold War.  Never would have happened.  Makes me think it's some enterprising Westerner hoping to legitimize these tubes and cash in on a huge stash of them they bought for pennies on the dollar... raising awareness and the going price.  It'll most likely work too

I have some 1958 Foton 6N8S tubes.  Bought them from Russia a year or two ago.  They do sound excellent.  Never got much acknowledgement when I mentioned them because no one really wanted to hear of it.  Some people might think it's simply us reaching the bottom of the barrel of 6SN7s for what's left at a reasonable price, but the Russians make some damn good NOS tubes.  Their Reflektor 6P14P-EV tubes are amazing (EL84/7189 equivalent) and probably my favorite EL84.  Super thick glass and rated up to 10000 hours.  Sound better than anything else I have for Leeloo.  The 6N3 (5670) tubes that @koover is recommending and Jeremy is making us a custom adapter for are excellent and a freaking steal at their current prices.  I plan on getting a nice stash of them before they're $50 a pop.


----------



## rgmffn

Astral Abyss said:


> *I'm curious about the silk-screened 6SN7GT on Russian tubes.  I've never seen them do that before.*  It would be like the USA silk-screening Russian equivalents on tubes during the Cold War.  Never would have happened.  Makes me think it's some enterprising Westerner hoping to legitimize these tubes and cash in on a huge stash of them they bought for pennies on the dollar... raising awareness and the going price.  It'll most likely work too
> 
> I have some 1958 Foton 6N8S tubes.  Bought them from Russia a year or two ago.  They do sound excellent.  Never got much acknowledgement when I mentioned them because no one really wanted to hear of it.  Some people might think it's simply us reaching the bottom of the barrel of 6SN7s for what's left at a reasonable price, but the Russians make some damn good NOS tubes.  Their Reflektor 6P14P-EV tubes are amazing (EL84/7189 equivalent) and probably my favorite EL84.  Super thick glass and rated up to 10000 hours.  Sound better than anything else I have for Leeloo.  The 6N3 (5670) tubes that @koover is recommending and Jeremy is making us a custom adapter for are excellent and a freaking steal at their current prices.  I plan on getting a nice stash of them before they're $50 a pop.



I know very little about vacuum tubes. So you're saying the marking on the tube seems suspicious. I feel Kevin Is trustworthy and certainly knows his tubes. And all I know is how good it sounds in my system. It's the best I've ever heard it sound.  By a good margin. That's all that really matters to me. That, and the price of course.   I'm even thinking about purchasing another. It would be interesting to see if another one performs at the level this one does.


----------



## Astral Abyss

rgmffn said:


> I know very little about vacuum tubes. So you're saying the marking on the tube seems suspicious. I feel Kevin Is trustworthy and certainly knows his tubes. And all I know is how good it sounds in my system. It's the best I've ever heard it sound.  By a good margin. That's all that really matters to me. That, and the price of course.   I'm even thinking about purchasing another. It would be interesting to see if another one performs at the level this one does.



Not so much suspicious as just seems cheesy.  It is what it is.  If it sounds good is what matters.  I'm just suspicious by nature and simply commenting on something that appears out of place to me. 

Upscale Audio is legit and I'd buy a tube they tested and verified without reservation.  You get that piece of mind at least.  I've bought from them before.  But, they do charge a premium.


----------



## Geezer Rock 001 (Mar 19, 2018)

You guys are killing me!! I was just thinking that I had a very good collection of tubes for my Ember and at least 4 that I would rate A to A+. 

   And now this. A  mysterious Soviet tube that was hidden in a jungle in South America for 50 years. Will this tubeitis ever end??

  Question to the owners of this new wonder tube. The comment about moving the vocals forward. Are you EQing your Ember? I have found with even my A+ tubes that I need to dial in just a tad of treble and upper mid s with my Loki to get the vocals more forward in headphones.

   The Ember is an amazing amp! Every time I listen to music with it I am more in love with it!


----------



## koover

One thing on these top secret Russian Relektors, they take an inordinate amount of burn-in time. I haven’t even got there yet but 200 hours seems to be the magic number. All I know is they sound better with each listening session. They open up a lot with solid low end, nice extended treble (but not harsh) and not as “fuzzy” or congested when they’re straight out of the box. For the money bro, they really can’t be beat. Your best deals are buying a lot of 10 or more and it’ll cost you $10-15 plus shipping. They’re just untested and not matched.


----------



## DRHamp

And the latest from Jeremy just a few minutes ago re: the 2C51 adapters.


"PCB's are here, will build up and do a final checkout on a lot tonight - long as all is good - they will be good to go tomorrow!"

That's awesome guys


----------



## koover

Yes it is. How are we going to do this? This isn’t for sale for everyone (at this point, correct?) so do we want to do a PM? Your call as you took the lead on this. Thanx again for stepping up!


----------



## DRHamp

Once Jeremy says we're ready to go - I'll get his preferred process from him and pass it on here.   We haven't discussed process or price yet but when I know I'll post it here.


----------



## Geezer Rock 001

Koover, if you do a bulk buy on the Russian jungle tubes, let me know.

  Another one that had been tempting me is the T J Full Music 6SN7 new production from China. Has anyone had experience rolling one of these in an Ember?


----------



## DRHamp

I have a couple of the "Russian Jungle Tubes" (I like that name) on the way - should be here Thursday.  If they are as good or surpass my favored 6SN7s I'll be impressed and happy.


----------



## Astral Abyss

Here's some pics of the finished adapter while we wait for the final details, courtesy of Jeremy.  Anyone that's used his 6SN7 adapter knows just how well made these are.  Blows the Chinese stuff out of the water.


----------



## DRHamp

Thanks Matt for posting the pictures - it's also worth noting Jeremy's accompanying comments below:

"Sending you and Matt the photos  they are good to go! A critical note, the 5670 is a little funky to bias. Ember and Solstice will have no issue. Sunrise and Horizon may need to have input caps bypassed in order to use depending on the tube. Starlight will be hit and miss or one would need to solder the input caps in bypass."

I'll contact him today to determine the process for ordering and the price.


----------



## nwavesailor

While folks await the 5670 adapters, I have been using the dual C3G's for a few weeks. Initially I found these to be a bit shy on bass but the detail they provide more that makes up for this. Most of other tubes I have tried have been a bit warm and my perception was more bass but with a loss of some detail. I do, however, miss the visual glow!


----------



## DRHamp

Ok guys - it's done -- here's the scoop from Jeremy:

"Price will be $22.99 + shipping. Anyone can order through me by email for now and I will get the adapter on the site tonight. Some think that is a high price for the adapter but if they saw the build process and cost of the machined pins + PCB and socket - it is a bargain. They are not a slapped together adapter. Funny how so much detail goes into a tiny adapter!"

Cheers and have fun with those 5670/2C51s


----------



## thewind32

Are these a one-off batch or will they be available from now on like the 6sn7 adapter?


----------



## DRHamp

He is putting it on the website, so I assume it will be available like the 6SN7 adapters


----------



## koover

It’s already up on the website to order. Lightning fast.


----------



## koover

I’m confused. Please excuse my ignorance. Why is it a “6SN7” to 5670/396a?
I understand the 5670/397a piece but I’m confused with the 6SN7


----------



## thewind32

koover said:


> I’m confused. Please excuse my ignorance. Why is it a “6SN7” to 5670/396a?
> I understand the 5670/397a piece but I’m confused with the 6SN7



Unless I'm remembering things wrongly, the 6SN7 to 5670/396a adapter is not the new one, as I've seen that on the site since quite long ago.
It doesn't look like the new one is on the site yet.


----------



## DRHamp

Per Jeremy:
"The new adapter is not listed yet  It is a 5670 to 6922 adapter. As I mentioned - it will not be on the site until tonight. People that want to buy now can just email me. Adapter covers 5670, 2C51, 396A or 6n3p tubes to our designs."


----------



## koover

Ah ha. I was thinking that was quick and thought Jeremy just got ahead of it. Then it wasn’t the correct adapter. Thank you guys!


----------



## Astral Abyss

DRHamp said:


> Per Jeremy:
> "The new adapter is not listed yet  It is a 5670 to 6922 adapter. As I mentioned - it will not be on the site until tonight. People that want to buy now can just email me. Adapter covers 5670, 2C51, 396A or 6n3p tubes to our designs."



I just ordered 3.


----------



## rgmffn

Geezer Rock 001 said:


> You guys are killing me!! I was just thinking that I had a very good collection of tubes for my Ember and at least 4 that I would rate A to A+.
> 
> And now this. A  mysterious Soviet tube that was hidden in a jungle in South America for 50 years. Will this tubeitis ever end??
> 
> ...



Love my Ember too!  As to your question, I only have the 10k knob tipped up to about 1-1:30 maybe, but I consider that as mostly an adjustment for the HP's I'm using. The middle two knobs are centered. Those would likely affect the vocals the most. I don't feel my phones need any help there. I have the 20Hz knob at ~ 2:30. Love me some bass. 

While I'm at it, I mentioned earlier that I was considering getting another one of these 'Russian Jungle Tubes'.  Well I did. The second one still has that open air presentation to it like the first. You can tell it's the same tube, but on further swapping between the two, the second one is a bit sharper overall. It has more of a SS sound to it. It's most noticeable when the music reaches a crescendo or loud passage. When comparing, noticing this, the first tube I received is a bit softer sounding. It's subtle though. I love them both and can find myself switching them out on occasion just to change it up some. It's nice to have a backup. 

Oh, and you could say that they look identical. Like the pic I posted several posts back.


----------



## DRHamp

The 5670 / 2C51 / 396A / 6N3P adapter is now up on the Garage1217 website.


----------



## Geezer Rock 001

Well thanks rgmffn! After reading your post I caved and ordered a Jungle Love tube to add to my Ember stash. Koover, please take me off the group buy list.

   Can't wait to see what kind of opportunities the new adapter adds to the Ember tube rolling mayhem.

   Does anyone know how to put a freeze on your Pay Pal account for electronic related items only?


----------



## DavidA

Geezer Rock 001 said:


> Does anyone know how to put a freeze on your Pay Pal account for electronic related items only?


For some its called "WIFE" and for others "GIRLFRIEND" and usually auto-activated


----------



## Astral Abyss

Tube adapters arrived today.  Beautiful.  Work great.  Sound great.  I'm quite pleased.  

A big thank you to everyone that helped make this happen!


----------



## koover

Astral Abyss said:


> Tube adapters arrived today.  Beautiful.  Work great.  Sound great.  I'm quite pleased.
> 
> A big thank you to everyone that helped make this happen!


Mine single arrived too.
Probably going to nab  a few more for the LYR2. It is of very high quality too.


----------



## nwavesailor (Mar 23, 2018)

Astral Abyss, are the WE 396A in your Ember anywhere  close to your beloved 6J5 National Unions???

Has anyone, other than HOWIE13, tried the dual C3G's in their Ember? My pair of CG3's are quite microphonic but crazy good in detail retrieval.


----------



## Astral Abyss (Mar 23, 2018)

nwavesailor said:


> Astral Abyss, are the WE 396A in your Ember anywhere  close to your beloved 6J5 National Unions???



No, they aren't, but I wasn't really expecting them to be.  The big octals have a really nice airiness and reverb to them that I like.  But sometimes I like to swap the giants for something a bit more nimble and linear.  Depends on the music.  My metal and electronic music just wastes whatever life is left in those old 6J5Gs.  They aren't fast enough to keep up and can't put down deep, clean bass like the Reflector 6N3P-E and WE 396a can..

The 5670 series of tubes give any 6922 a run for the money and don't cost a fortune.  They're wonderful in my Woo Audio WA2.

I don't think anything tops those old-ass 1930s 6J5Gs, but they just simply are vanishing into history.  Can't really find anything matched anymore.  Hard to recommend something to folks that doesn't exist.


----------



## nwavesailor

Astral Abyss said:


> I don't think anything tops those old-ass 1930s 6J5Gs, but they just simply are vanishing into history. Can't really find anything matched anymore. Hard to recommend something to folks that doesn't exist.



Thanks, AA. I think I'll sit out this round of tube buying madness as I do have 4 pairs of Tung Sol and Visseaux 6J5's (plus other octal 6 volt single plate tubes) as well as the C3G, 12A-- and lots of 6922 and 7308's.

I appreciate your opinion very much!

Thanks


----------



## Astral Abyss

nwavesailor said:


> Thanks, AA. I think I'll sit out this round of tube buying madness as I do have 4 pairs of Tung Sol and Visseaux 6J5's (plus other octal 6 volt single plate tubes) as well as the C3G, 12A-- and lots of 6922 and 7308's.
> 
> I appreciate your opinion very much!
> 
> Thanks



I think you're set. 

Only thing I can add is that this adapter and tube type can pretty much replace any 6DJ8/6922/7308 tube in any amp out there... for cheap... and they sound just as good or better.  That's the real beauty of it.


----------



## Geezer Rock 001

Today was a most excellent Ember day! I got Jeremy's newest tube adapter and... a Russian Jungle Tube in the mail. 

   The adapter is a fine piece of work, as always from him. But it may be a moot point for me. I rolled in one tube with the adapter and it sounded very good with no time on a NOS.

  Them I rolled in the Jungle Tube also with no time on it. Popped in Dire Straits first CD and kicked back. First track was good and then... I was on stage with Dire Straits for the next 40 minutes. This tube kicks butt! Excellent layers of sound, bass, mids and treble in perfect balance and vocals clear and distinct.

     WOW and then some. I had a couple of very strong favorites before. A Crosley, a Bugle Boy and a Kenrad and 6 or 7 other rollers. It may be real hard to pull the Jungle Tube out of the Ember going forward.
     Thanks for the tip!


----------



## koover (Mar 23, 2018)

Geezer Rock 001 said:


> Today was a most excellent Ember day! I got Jeremy's newest tube adapter and... a Russian Jungle Tube in the mail.
> 
> The adapter is a fine piece of work, as always from him. But it may be a moot point for me. I rolled in one tube with the adapter and it sounded very good with no time on a NOS.
> 
> ...


Post removed


----------



## Astral Abyss

I may have jumped the gun.  Doesn't look like the adapters are working in WA2.  Got to email Jeremy and find out what's up.  Seems odd.


----------



## rgmffn

Geezer Rock 001 said:


> Today was a most excellent Ember day! I got Jeremy's newest tube adapter and... a Russian Jungle Tube in the mail.
> 
> The adapter is a fine piece of work, as always from him. But it may be a moot point for me. I rolled in one tube with the adapter and it sounded very good with no time on a NOS.
> 
> ...



  You're welcome. Glad you like the tube and it sounds like it's as much as I do.

Some may not remember my posts above but after receiving my second one, and letting it burn in for ~50 hrs or so, it has surpassed even the first one in sound quality, or, my preference. They are now different sounding. The first one has gobs of air and slightly better vocals but something is lost somewhere and it's not as engaging now having been listening to the second one. The second one is just soo musical. Not quite as much air, but just clean, clear, foot tapping bliss. It just seems to make _everything_ stand out. The bass on both of them are very close to the same I'd say. It's just something different in each of their presentation. I'm really surprised on how different they sound now that they both have some hours on them. But they are both better than any other (5) 6sn7 I have.

I've noticed differences in other doubles of 6922's also so I'm learning that there can be differences even in the same tube(s).

Happy hunting guys!


----------



## koover

rgmffn said:


> You're welcome. Glad you like the tube and it sounds like it's as much as I do.
> 
> Some may not remember my posts above but after receiving my second one, and letting it burn in for ~50 hrs or so, it has surpassed even the first one in sound quality, or, my preference. They are now different sounding. The first one has gobs of air and slightly better vocals but something is lost somewhere and it's not as engaging now having been listening to the second one. The second one is just soo musical. Not quite as much air, but just clean, clear, foot tapping bliss. It just seems to make _everything_ stand out. The bass on both of them are very close to the same I'd say. It's just something different in each of their presentation. I'm really surprised on how different they sound now that they both have some hours on them. But they are both better than any other (5) 6sn7 I have.
> 
> ...


What tube are you referring to? I got lost in translation somewhere along the line.


----------



## rgmffn

koover said:


> What tube are you referring to? I got lost in translation somewhere along the line.



https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/early-russian-6h8c-6sn7


----------



## koover

rgmffn said:


> https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/early-russian-6h8c-6sn7


Thanx


----------



## Geezer Rock 001

I was so wowed yesterday that I ordered another one too. 

   Has anyone ever built or developed a "burn in" device? Using the amp to burn tubes in seems like it would shorten it's productive life time.


----------



## rgmffn

Geezer Rock 001 said:


> I was so wowed yesterday that I ordered another one too.
> 
> Has anyone ever built or developed a "burn in" device? Using the amp to burn tubes in seems like it would shorten it's productive life time.


 I have one!  It's called a Vali 2.


----------



## rgmffn

DRHamp said:


> I have a couple of the "Russian Jungle Tubes" (I like that name) on the way - should be here Thursday.  If they are as good or surpass my favored 6SN7s I'll be impressed and happy.


Care to share your experiences or comparisons?


----------



## DRHamp (Mar 30, 2018)

@rgmffn - yes, I got two of those "Russian Jungle Tubes" 6H8C/6SN7 in last week and have a little over 50 hours on one of them.  As everyone has said before, they are outstanding.  I will give the second one a go next week.
So I took the tube out today (the 6H8C) and replaced it with one of the Russian 6H3N/2C51 to see if I could quantify the difference.  I have to tell you and I'm sure many would disagree, but to my old ears the 2C51 was right up there, neck and neck with the 6H8C.  $3 vs $41 aside, I would be hard pressed to place one above the other.  I will try the other 6H8C next week and report in if my mind is changed.


----------



## rgmffn

DRHamp said:


> @rgmffn - yes, I got two of those "Russian Jungle Tubes" 6H8C/6SN7 in last week and have a little over 50 hours on one of them.  As everyone has said before, they are outstanding.  I will give the second one a go next week.
> So I took the tube out today (the 6H8C) and replaced it with one of the Russian 6H3N/2C51 to see if I could quantify the difference.  I have to tell you and I'm sure many would disagree, but to my old ears the 2C51 was right up there, neck and neck with the 6H8C.  $3 vs $41 aside, I would be hard pressed to place one above the other.  I will try the other 6H8C next week and report in if my mind is changed.


Thanks!  Yeah, I have one of those little tubes, but in the USA equivalency. So, likely not the same sounding. It does sound pretty good, but nothing like that big "Jungle" tube.


----------



## starence

Can anyone suggest some aggressive/energetic sounding tubes that don't require an adapter? Everything I have so far is pretty laid back, and I'd like my next tube be different.


----------



## DavidA

starence said:


> Can anyone suggest some aggressive/energetic sounding tubes that don't require an adapter? Everything I have so far is pretty laid back, and I'd like my next tube be different.


I've had some great Telefunken's that might fit your needs, 12AU7 so no adapter needed.


----------



## Geezer Rock 001

starence said:


> Can anyone suggest some aggressive/energetic sounding tubes that don't require an adapter? Everything I have so far is pretty laid back, and I'd like my next tube be different.




  The best 12v tubes I have tried are 12AT7 Bugle Boy and 12BH7  Electro Harmonix and a Crosley.


----------



## Geezer Rock 001

rgmffn said:


> Care to share your experiences or comparisons?



  I got my 2nd Jungle Tube a few days ago. I decided to go with a cyro treatment one this time.

  The first one wowed me with great clarity, excellent bass and the best sound stage of any of the 12 Ember tubes that I have rolled. 

 I used to listen to my music using a setup that had a Turtle Beach Digital Surround Sound(DSS2) box/amp that simulated 5.1 surround sound in the PX 22 headphones. It used reverb to create the illusion, but it sounded pretty good.

 Both Jungle Tubes have created that surround sensation, but with much more high fidelity through the Ember and into my HD800S and Sundaras.  The cyro tube may be a little better performer, but not by much.

 I was listening to Steely Dan yesterday and I counted 9 different directions, left to right and from back to front that I could hear an instrument and or vocals coming from!  It was pure bliss.

  I haven't been at the Ember tube rolling as long as many of you have. But, I have tried at least 12 different tubes before I dropped in a Jungle Tube.  There were several excellent ones. A Kenrad, a Bugle Boy a Crosley, etc. But none of them came close to the listening experience that I have had with these tubes.


----------



## rgmffn

Geezer Rock 001 said:


> I got my 2nd Jungle Tube a few days ago. I decided to go with a cyro treatment one this time.
> 
> The first one wowed me with great clarity, excellent bass and the best sound stage of any of the 12 Ember tubes that I have rolled.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your findings. I was pretty sure I had run into an exceptional sounding tube. Glad that others like yourself are so happy with it too. The 2 that I have sound a little bit different but I love both of them. I'm having such a good time going back and forth, it's like enjoying a new experience, every time. So guess what?  I ordered a third!  But that's gonna be it. I promise. No, really.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

Hello all, my ember is on the way and I went ahead and also got the tube adapters and want to grab some tubes. Have the Russian Jungle in my cart and I'm wondering if there are a few others i should add onto the order?? what are some of your top picks for the ember?? Thanks been trying to catch up on this whole thread lol


----------



## DavidA

Th3Drizzl3 said:


> Hello all, my ember is on the way and I went ahead and also got the tube adapters and want to grab some tubes. Have the Russian Jungle in my cart and I'm wondering if there are a few others i should add onto the order?? what are some of your top picks for the ember?? Thanks been trying to catch up on this whole thread lol


I've always liked these: Telefunken -  clear and dynamic but a bit pricy IMO, Gold Lion - good all arounder, RCA clear top - great tube for the price, Bugle Boy - one of the warmer tubes, Mullard - also a bit on the warm side.


----------



## DRHamp (Apr 3, 2018)

There are many good choices  - Amperex Bugle Boy was my first favorite - on warm side as @DavidA mentioned.  I have several 6SN7 and equivalents that I like a lot -- Sylvania JAN-CHS Vt-231, TungSol Mouse Ears, and of course, the Russian 6H8C (Jungle Tubes).  I also can't pass up mentioning the 2C51/5670/396A tubes using the new adapter that Jeremy is offering - they are inexpensive and IMO can rival some of the 6SN7s above.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

Appreciate the info. I ordered three of the jungle tubes just because we may never see them again down the line. also the tungsols 2 different ones ones, a 2c51 pair and one 6sn7 pair both nos. grabbed the sylvania black I found on eBay it was a price i couldnt pass up. I have the lyr 3 coming also and just finished a crack and a "custom" build I'm working on (otl design) so down the rabbit hole I go hahaha. heard so many great things about the ember I had to try one out it's coming with its brother Polaris. been a while since I did a ton of tubes so this should be fun.


----------



## DRHamp

I've gone back through this thread looking for a mention of the 5755/420A tubes - it is a 12AX7 equivalent but with different pin wiring and requires an adapter.  Someone mentioned it earlier and I bought the adapter but haven't tried any of the 5755 tubes.  
I know I read about it somewhere in this thread, but just can't find it now.  If anyone has tried this tube, I would be interested in their observations.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

i have some of those tubes but dont have the adapter yet. ill get one ordered up and see what happens


----------



## Astral Abyss

DRHamp said:


> I've gone back through this thread looking for a mention of the 5755/420A tubes - it is a 12AX7 equivalent but with different pin wiring and requires an adapter.  Someone mentioned it earlier and I bought the adapter but haven't tried any of the 5755 tubes.
> I know I read about it somewhere in this thread, but just can't find it now.  If anyone has tried this tube, I would be interested in their observations.



It was probably me.  I bought a couple 5755 to 12AX7 adapters and was hoping to convince Jeremy to make some better ones.  One for Ember and another for Leeloo.  Probably too niche though for him to bother with.  I haven't actually tried the 5755 in Ember yet.  I think I'll do that tonight.  It's a pretty solid tube.  No obvious flaws or shortcomings.  Maybe not as quite as good as a 5751, but way cheaper to buy.  I honestly think for the price it's a ridiculous steal, just like the 5670/2C51/6N3.  I bought a sleeve of 5 NOS Raytheon 5755s for $28 and that's probably going to last me 20 years.

I still have one running in Leeloo, so I obviously think it has potential.  Probably going to depend a lot on the amp.


----------



## DRHamp

Ahhh, I think it was you Matt -- I have the adapter and ordered four of the tubes today - $4.95 each is pretty low cost, at least compared to 12AX7s.
Should have them in a few days and will see how they stand up.  I'll be interested to see what you guys think once you've tried them.


----------



## Astral Abyss

DRHamp said:


> Ahhh, I think it was you Matt -- I have the adapter and ordered four of the tubes today - $4.95 each is pretty low cost, at least compared to 12AX7s.
> Should have them in a few days and will see how they stand up.  I'll be interested to see what you guys think once you've tried them.



I've been listening to the 5755 in Ember with my GH1s (with Grado G-cush pads) now for about an hour or so.  I use Jeremy's attenuator adapter cable, so keep that in mind.  Gives me a lot more play on the volume dial.  Also kills most of the background noise and hiss without having to resort to digital attenuation.  I'm sitting at about 11 o'clock on the volume dial right now listening to some Animals as Leaders.  Starcastle was a bit over 12 o'clock.  

I'm quite satisfied with this tube so far.  Definitely a brighter presentation than the 6J5Gs, but not overly so.  I guess anything is bright compared to them, though.  Same as in the Leeloo, I don't find any obvious shortcomings and nothing stands out as missing with the 5755, but that's a good thing.  I unfortunately tend to zero in on annoyances in tubes, and I don't have any with this tube.  Same with the 5670, just an all-around good sounding tube.  This tube seems to have excellent control over the entire audio range and makes me want to keep on listening.  Really nice sound for prog rock and metal.

Can't say anyone should just run out and buy 5 of them and an adapter, but if you're looking for a cheap, solid tube, it's worth checking out.  Harder and harder to find good NOS tubes that don't cost a fortune.  I was originally turned onto this tube from Justin, owner of Ampsandsound, while talking to him at a local meet in Phoenix, as his recommendation for the Leeloo.  Figured it would work well in the Ember also, and certainly does seem to.  Just don't forget you need an adapter to try it out... Don't want any fireworks.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3 (Apr 10, 2018)

DRHamp said:


> Ahhh, I think it was you Matt -- I have the adapter and ordered four of the tubes today - $4.95 each is pretty low cost, at least compared to 12AX7s.
> Should have them in a few days and will see how they stand up.  I'll be interested to see what you guys think once you've tried them.



i got the adapter ordered also today.what tubes did you order?

on another note.... my "jungle" tubes were finally shipped out after a whole lot of stress. wow. will be my one and only order from upscale ill just leave it at that.


----------



## koover (Apr 10, 2018)

Astral Abyss said:


> I've been listening to the 5755 in Ember with my GH1s (with Grado G-cush pads) now for about an hour or so.  I use Jeremy's attenuator adapter cable, so keep that in mind.  Gives me a lot more play on the volume dial.  Also kills most of the background noise and hiss without having to resort to digital attenuation.  I'm sitting at about 11 o'clock on the volume dial right now listening to some Animals as Leaders.  Starcastle was a bit over 12 o'clock.
> 
> I'm quite satisfied with this tube so far.  Definitely a brighter presentation than the 6J5Gs, but not overly so.  I guess anything is bright compared to them, though.  Same as in the Leeloo, I don't find any obvious shortcomings and nothing stands out as missing with the 5755, but that's a good thing.  I unfortunately tend to zero in on annoyances in tubes, and I don't have any with this tube.  Same with the 5670, just an all-around good sounding tube.  This tube seems to have excellent control over the entire audio range and makes me want to keep on listening.  Really nice sound for prog rock and metal.
> 
> Can't say anyone should just run out and buy 5 of them and an adapter, but if you're looking for a cheap, solid tube, it's worth checking out.  Harder and harder to find good NOS tubes that don't cost a fortune.  I was originally turned onto this tube from Justin, owner of Ampsandsound, while talking to him at a local meet in Phoenix, as his recommendation for the Leeloo.  Figured it would work well in the Ember also, and certainly does seem to.  Just don't forget you need an adapter to try it out... Don't want any fireworks.


You have such great taste in music! I also value yoyur opinion on your tube usage. I'm gonna have to try these other tubes you guys are talking about...especially the Jungle tubes



Th3Drizzl3 said:


> i got the adapter ordered also today.what tubes did you order?
> 
> on another note.... my "jungle" tubes were finally shipped out after a whole lot of stress. wow. will be my one and only order from upscale ill just leave it at that.


If you're talking about the 5670 tubes, here's a couple suggestions you can't go wrong with
Tung Sol 5670. You can get a set for $35. Excellent tube and has some of the best mids I've heard with really good low end.
My favorite is the Western Electric 5670. The JW WE are also excellent but I don't really hear a difference from the regular WE.
Also for SUPER cheap, the (early 1970's)  6N3P-E or (late 1950's to early mid 1960's) 6N3P Foton. Both are so damn inexpensive and sound incredible after at "least" 100 hours burn in. Takes the same adaptor. You can get a lot of 8 NOS/NIB untested or matched though for like $8 from the right seller. Evene if a couple are duds it's still so, so cheap. The shipping costs more then the tubes and they take about 3 weeks, or I can just sell you a set really cheap if you pick up the shipping which will be a LOT cheaper then coming from the Ukraine....and a lot faster.
If interested I can PM you. I turned 4-5 Head-fiers on to these and so far I "think" they really like them....especially for the money.

https://www.ebay.com/p/NOS-Pair-Tun...itm=151621028745&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1


----------



## DRHamp

I have several of the 6N3P/2C51 variants and all sound very good to my ear and they are cheap.  My favorites were purchased on EBay and may be the same ones @Astral Abyss mentioned.  It was a lot of 8 NOS Gold Grid 6N3P Reflektor tubes from an ebay seller "jetparts"  - $11 for the lot plus $11 shipping from Ukraine.  It did take 2-3 weeks to get them - https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-x-6N3P-E...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 

I just ordered my first 5755s yesterday, also on ebay - seller name: "tubetoons".  They are J.A.N. Raytheon for $4.95 ea and $7.50 expedited shipping.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/5755-Vacuu...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

DRHamp said:


> I have several of the 6N3P/2C51 variants and all sound very good to my ear and they are cheap.  My favorites were purchased on EBay and may be the same ones @Astral Abyss mentioned.  It was a lot of 8 NOS Gold Grid 6N3P Reflektor tubes from an ebay seller "jetparts"  - $11 for the lot plus $11 shipping from Ukraine.  It did take 2-3 weeks to get them - https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-x-6N3P-E-2C51-6385-ECC42-6N3P-REFLEKTOR-TUBES-GOLD-GRID-NOS-BOXED/172357379759?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> I just ordered my first 5755s yesterday, also on ebay - seller name: "tubetoons".  They are J.A.N. Raytheon for $4.95 ea and $7.50 expedited shipping.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/5755-Vacuum-Tube-J-A-N-Raytheon-New-Dual-Triode-12AX7/120666321927?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649




nice thank you ill grab a few of those to play with also. for the price why not


----------



## koover

DRHamp said:


> I have several of the 6N3P/2C51 variants and all sound very good to my ear and they are cheap.  My favorites were purchased on EBay and may be the same ones @Astral Abyss mentioned.  It was a lot of 8 NOS Gold Grid 6N3P Reflektor tubes from an ebay seller "jetparts"  - $11 for the lot plus $11 shipping from Ukraine.  It did take 2-3 weeks to get them - https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-x-6N3P-E-2C51-6385-ECC42-6N3P-REFLEKTOR-TUBES-GOLD-GRID-NOS-BOXED/172357379759?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> I just ordered my first 5755s yesterday, also on ebay - seller name: "tubetoons".  They are J.A.N. Raytheon for $4.95 ea and $7.50 expedited shipping.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/5755-Vacuum-Tube-J-A-N-Raytheon-New-Dual-Triode-12AX7/120666321927?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


Those 6N3P-E’s from Jetparts is the exact seller I’m turning everyone on to. They’re a good seller. I’ve bougjt 3 lots off them.

Everything you listed is exactly the way it is. They’re very excellent sounding tubes for
the money.
Just burn them in for “at least” 100 hours before final judgement.


----------



## koover

Th3Drizzl3 said:


> nice thank you ill grab a few of those to play with also. for the price why not


You’re going to like them if they were quadruple the price. I’d be surprised if you dont like them in the Ember.


----------



## DRHamp

koover said:


> Those 6N3P-E’s from Jetparts is the exact seller I’m turning everyone on to. They’re a good seller. I’ve bougjt 3 lots off them.



Yes @koover I think I got that link from you and I agree, they are excellent


----------



## koover

Also check out the 6N3P Fontons. Late 50’s early 60’s. A little bit more money but they are excellent. Don’t know an eBay seller but go to the LYR tube rolling thread.
Look for @AuditoryCanvas as he’s a great seller win reasonable prices. I get a ton off him and they’re excellent and buy with confidence. He’s meticulous.  Everything is Matched and tested. I highly recommend him for anything that he has to sell.


----------



## DRHamp

@koover thanks for the heads-up on @AuditoryCanvas - I just picked up a couple of Fotons from him.


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

enjoying the ember so far it really is a nice little amp along with the polaris. both are excellent for the price he charges imo. so far i only have put the jungle tubes in and agree they sound very good. much better then the included tube. ive been swamped with work so i have not had to much more seat time yet. i have a good stock of various tubes coming since its been a while since really messing with tubes. the ones from jetparts should be here soon.


----------



## jaywillin

just got my russian 6np3 in Fri. very nice !, i love how the green light in the ember matches the green of my H/K 330c !


----------



## koover

jaywillin said:


> just got my russian 6np3 in Fri. very nice !, i love how the green light in the ember matches the green of my H/K 330c !


Let those babies burn in for a good 100 hours for them to sound their best. Hopefully they’re semi matched unless you have a tester and you’ve already done that. Have fun and happy listening!!


----------



## Henrikfi

Sorry guys, but i'm going a bit off topic. I've been using Project Ember II as my go to amp. I'm finding the stock tube(JJ ECC82) to be a tad too piercing for my liking in the treble region. Can anyone recommend a tube that has smooth but airy highs? I'm using LCD3F.


----------



## DavidA

Henrikfi said:


> Sorry guys, but i'm going a bit off topic. I've been using Project Ember II as my go to amp. I'm finding the stock tube(JJ ECC82) to be a tad too piercing for my liking in the treble region. Can anyone recommend a tube that has smooth but airy highs? I'm using LCD3F.


Might want to try a Bugle Boy, Mullard or Amperex SQ/PQ, I'd consider these slightly on the warmer side and they smooth out the highs a bit to me.


----------



## 55Powers (May 1, 2018)

Henrikfi said:


> Sorry guys, but i'm going a bit off topic. I've been using Project Ember II as my go to amp. I'm finding the stock tube(JJ ECC82) to be a tad too piercing for my liking in the treble region. Can anyone recommend a tube that has smooth but airy highs? I'm using LCD3F.



I am running a RCA 6SN7GT Grey Glass with the adapter from Garage, very relaxing, smooth yet good enough with details and dynamics. Soundstage on par with the best part of the other tubes I've run.
Slightly more agressive and with more punch i have an Amperex 7308 that is probably the best all round tube I've rolled to date. Still pleasant but more defined than the 6sn7.

Not an expert btw, but I am also not a big fan of the stock JJ and typically looking for slightly warm and smooth.

Tube list:
*6SN7GT RCA - Grey glass / black plates*
6SN7GTA RCA
6SN7GTB RCA
6SN7GT / VT231 Sylvania - 2-hole / bottom getter
6n6p Foton - Gold grid
6n6p Novosibirsk
6n23p Voshkod
12bh7a RCA
PCC88 Amperex - Bugle Boy
12AT7 Mullard
12AU7 RCA - Clear top
*7308 - Amperex - White print / gold pins*
JJ stock


----------



## Makiah S

Oh Boi those guys are pricy kinda

Well I finally did it, I switched back to my 1940 100%/100% White Label Bottom Getter Tall Bottle Sylvania 6sn7GT VT 231/JAN CHS (my holy grail Sylvania 6sn7) and... i immediately noticed how noisy it is :/ I also remember how lean it is in the bass, but after like 3 months with my current and end game tube the Classic Grade Psvane CV181-T Mark II ValveTubes, I can say I'm not going back to my back up >.> it's a little nosier and not as detailed nor resolving 

So that said, I can certainly recommend the Psvanne CV181-T Mark II Classic Grade. I did a best offer and paid like $100 shipped for it, there are cheaper variants you can get for less but I'd avoid them. Some folks in other threads/communities have noticed they aren't nearly as resolving

But YAY! Got my end game 6SN7! Tonally I find the Psvanne to be everything I want and them some. It's blacker than my old 1940 Syl, just as open and expansive. A little darker up top, better resolve in the mid range and more tactile. Bass is also... punchy with more weight but no lack of texture. Basically everything I've wanted+ a little more, the only down side I can think of is the bass. If your trying to tame a Bass Heavy Dynamic with like 300+ Ohms resistance than you might enjoy a classic 40's White Label Syl 6SN7 as it's extra noise is moot into a higher restive load. But if your driving low impedance planars or sensitive dynamics again I think the Psvanne is the way to go

So while I have NO idea how it compares to the Dual Single Plate Triode options, I think for a single 6sn7 this one's pretty much the only thing I'll recommend. Yes it's a completely NEW STOCK Tube so no new Old Stock magic here, but again for a New Stock tube it's got the advantage of a longer life and less variation. So again I recommend em!


----------



## erein1982

jaywillin said:


> just got my russian 6np3 in Fri. very nice !, i love how the green light in the ember matches the green of my H/K 330c !


Great setup!


----------



## erein1982

Thanks for the info.  I have an Ember on the way and look forward to rolling tubes.


----------



## DRHamp

For those of you rolling in 2C51s - Jeremy is now shipping the V2 adapter which will not only work with the Ember, but should work with any amp which takes 6922s


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

Do u know what was changed for the v2?


----------



## Astral Abyss

Th3Drizzl3 said:


> Do u know what was changed for the v2?



The tube heaters weren't getting power with non-G1217 amps.  That is fixed.
He also added a hole in the middle so the LED in his amps will shine through the adapter and into the tube.


----------



## maheeinfy

Anyone know if 6N8P works on Ember? i have a chinese 6N8P that came stock with DV336SE

I seems to be equivalent to 6SN7 so i thught it would work but since the manual doesn't list this tube, i couldnt be sure


----------



## DRHamp (Jul 22, 2018)

maheeinfy said:


> Anyone know if 6N8P works on Ember? i have a chinese 6N8P that came stock with DV336SE
> 
> I seems to be equivalent to 6SN7 so i thught it would work but since the manual doesn't list this tube, i couldnt be sure



Should be fine, but if you want to be sure -- shoot Jeremy  at  G1217 an email to confirm.
I haven't used that tube but have tried several other 6SN7 equivalents with success


----------



## Geezer Rock 001

The Ember sheet does not list it. 1P, 2P, 6P and 30P. No 8P.


----------



## maheeinfy

Thanks guys. Will email Jeremy


----------



## maheeinfy

Jeremy said its safe to try this tube on Ember with the 6SN7 adapter


----------



## koover

maheeinfy said:


> Jeremy said its safe to try this tube on Ember with the 6SN7 adapter


Are you referring to the tube you mentioned in post #3223?


----------



## maheeinfy

koover said:


> Are you referring to the tube you mentioned in post #3223?


Yes, 6N8P


----------



## CZ4A

6N8P = 6SN7


----------



## DRHamp

@koover , Have you tried any of the PW 6201 in the Ember?


----------



## koover

DRHamp said:


> Not yet. I’d like to know though like you.


----------



## koover

Wow I just realized how dead this thread is. July was the last post?


----------



## DRHamp

Yes, I agree, - I have recently picked up the Monoprice Cavalli Liquid Platinum and have been getting little playtime on the Ember lately.  I expect the tube rolling discussion to fire up in the Liquid Platinum thread soon.
I still love me some Ember II though!


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

i tried to grab the liquid plat from monoprice but was at work when i got the email and they sold out fairly quickly. i also have my ember and still enjoy it. it doesnt get as much seat time as it did though because of all the newer amps i have but i dont think id sell it. i also still have the polaris here as well


----------



## DRHamp

It appears to be in stock now


----------



## Th3Drizzl3

oh nice grabbing one now. thank you!


----------



## koover

Well I went ahead and did it. Say goodnight to my Ember. Sold it with my Atticus to a really nice guy here on the board. He also got about 15 single tubes and adapter with this package.
There's just no need for me to keep this amp since I upgraded to the MJ2 and Gumby. If it were solid state, yeah, wouldn't get rid of it but 2 tube amps is just redundant. I really wanted someone here to enjoy this amp while getting a good deal instead of just sitting on my desk collecting dust. 
This post is basically like saying some last words at the gravesite to say good-bye.


----------



## Geezer Rock 001

Adios Koover. Thanks for turning us on to the Russian Jungle tube!


----------



## DRHamp

After a year and a 100+ tubes including the Pevane, the (in)famous Jungle tubes, Siemens & Halske E88cc, and other awesome tubes I believe I have settled on "my" end-game, "Holy Grail" tube for the Ember.  It's a single post, pinched waist, NOS Valvo 6201.  Detail, clarity, and musicality exceed any of the tubes I have used previously.


----------



## nwavesailor

I havn't tried as many tubes as DRHamp but have also settled (for now) on a pair of C3G's.


----------



## DavidA

after 4+ years and maybe 75 different tubes I've settled on ..................all of them .  Mainly since I connect a variety of headphones to it daily and like the different presentations that each provide.


----------



## phthora

DavidA said:


> after 4+ years and maybe 75 different tubes I've settled on ..................all of them .  Mainly since I connect a variety of headphones to it daily and like the different presentations that each provide.



Well, seems like you'd be the person to ask then... Do you have a socket saver you recommend?


----------



## DavidA

phthora said:


> Well, seems like you'd be the person to ask then... Do you have a socket saver you recommend?


I've been using the ones from Tubemonger, a bit pricy but since I haven't had any issues I'd consider them worth it.  With that said I don't use a socket saver in my Ember since I only change the tube once every month or two these days.  At this rate the tubes I currently have will last me for a very long time, I think I'll be dead before the tubes that I have burn out .

FWIW I did try some really cheap ones from ebay and had issues with noise a few times with some tubes and the workmanship wasn't confidence inspiring since a few fell apart rather quickly so I dumped most of them and only kept a few that looked well made as spares if I ever have any issue with the ones from Tubemonger or a get another amp that could use them.


----------



## phthora

DavidA said:


> I've been using the ones from Tubemonger, a bit pricy but since I haven't had any issues I'd consider them worth it.  With that said I don't use a socket saver in my Ember since I only change the tube once every month or two these days.  At this rate the tubes I currently have will last me for a very long time, I think I'll be dead before the tubes that I have burn out .
> 
> FWIW I did try some really cheap ones from ebay and had issues with noise a few times with some tubes and the workmanship wasn't confidence inspiring since a few fell apart rather quickly so I dumped most of them and only kept a few that looked well made as spares if I ever have any issue with the ones from Tubemonger or a get another amp that could use them.



Much appreciated! That's a couple of recommendations for Tubemonger now, so sounds like that's what I will go with. I'm having a hard time predicting whether I will become a frequent tube-roller or not, but I imagine I will change tubes every so often between 3 or 4 favorites. That's how I end up using my solid state amps, anyway. Maybe no socket-saver will be necessary, but it's good to know what the options are.

I'll have to ask you about those 75 tubes someday too.


----------



## BucketInABucket

I got one of these from taobao, wonder if it's gonna be any good? https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?_u=81t9j7o18795&id=567022331629


----------



## DavidA

BucketInABucket said:


> I got one of these from taobao, wonder if it's gonna be any good? https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?_u=81t9j7o18795&id=567022331629


Gold Lion tubes are decent to good IMO.


----------



## BucketInABucket

Sweet, is that a fair price? I'm not sure how much tubes go for! How would it sound? While I wait for it to arrive


----------



## DavidA

BucketInABucket said:


> Sweet, is that a fair price? I'm not sure how much tubes go for! How would it sound? While I wait for it to arrive


Is the price for a set of 4 tubes? if it is then 260 yen ($3 USD) is unheard off cheap, FWIW most Gold Lion tubes sell for $15-$30, depends on the type and if in pairs if they are matched.


----------



## BucketInABucket

DavidA said:


> Is the price for a set of 4 tubes? if it is then 260 yen ($3 USD) is unheard off cheap, FWIW most Gold Lion tubes sell for $15-$30, depends on the type and if in pairs if they are matched.


Oh it's yuan, not yen, and that was for a single tube.


----------



## DRHamp

This thread has gone pretty quiet and don't know if it's fewer interested Ember users or some other reason.  For me, I've pretty much moved to the Mjolnir 2 and the Ember gets little play time.
As a result, I have quite a few 6SN7 types (Russian Jungle Tubes included) and some very nice 2C51/5670 types that I would sell if there's any interest.
I can either post a listing here, or send a list by PM.  I'll need to do an inventory(prob 30 - 50 tubes)
Cheers


----------



## koover (Feb 21, 2019)

DRHamp said:


> This thread has gone pretty quiet and don't know if it's fewer interested Ember users or some other reason.  For me, I've pretty much moved to the Mjolnir 2 and the Ember gets little play time.
> As a result, I have quite a few 6SN7 types (Russian Jungle Tubes included) and some very nice 2C51/5670 types that I would sell if there's any interest.
> I can either post a listing here, or send a list by PM.  I'll need to do an inventory(prob 30 - 50 tubes)
> Cheers


Yeah, noticed that myself. Even though I don't own the ember any longer, I still like catching up on possible tube ideas that someone may be running with. They're compatible (some) with the MJ2 which is what I moved on to..
Question? You don't like the 2C51/5670 tubes any longer? I use mine all the time in my MJ2.


----------



## Astral Abyss

@DRHamp I'd be interested in seeing what you've got.  I currently have 6 tube amps, all connected to Yggdrasil, and am always looking for good tubes.

Ember, Solstice, BH Crack, WA2, Pendant, and Leeloo.  Yeah, I've got commitment issues, but I love them all.


----------



## DRHamp

koover said:


> Question? You don't like the 2C51/5670 tubes any longer? I use mine all the time in my MJ2.


I love the 2C51s in the the Ember and in the MJ2 - I have 4 special pairs that I will not part with and I also have another 20 or so, mainly singles that are very good in the Ember that I probably won't use
I think you put me on those Russian 2C51s from EBay seller jetparts and they are cheap and awesome in the Ember - I still have 5 or 6 of those.


----------



## DRHamp (Feb 21, 2019)

Astral Abyss said:


> @DRHamp I'd be interested in seeing what you've got. I currently have 6 tube amps, all connected to Yggdrasil, and am always looking for good tubes.



I'll get the inventory done in the next day or so and post it here for any that are interested.  I'll price them right and just ask that buyer pays USPS shipping within CONUS.   I will also guarantee them to be non-microphonic and free of noise in my Ember.


----------



## Astral Abyss

DRHamp said:


> I'll get the inventory done in the next day or so and post it here for any that are interested.  I'll price them right and just ask that buyer pays USPS shipping within CONUS.   I will also guarantee them to be non-microphonic and free of noise in my Ember.



Look forward to seeing your list.


----------



## DRHamp

I'm in the process of listening to the tubes in my Ember to assure they are noise free and non-microphonic and it may take a little longer than 2 days.
I will send a PM list to @Astral Abyss and @koover rather than clutter up this thread.  If anyone else in interested, hit me up with a PM.


----------



## phthora

DRHamp said:


> I'm in the process of listening to the tubes in my Ember to assure they are noise free and non-microphonic and it may take a little longer than 2 days.
> I will send a PM list to @Astral Abyss and @koover rather than clutter up this thread.  If anyone else in interested, hit me up with a PM.



Clutter the thread! I'd be very interested to know what kind of tubes people have successfully used in the Ember. Even if it's just a list of tube names, it would help people like me at least figure out what options are available.


----------



## DRHamp

OK, I'll try to figure out how to post a list externally and provide a link to it -- maybe that would allow access for any interested and still not clutter the thread.  I'm about half way through with basic listening with the Ember so will need a few more days.


----------



## DRHamp

Just a side note here - as I listen through some 100+ tubes, I have fallen in love (AGAIN) with the 2C51/5670s.  For any of you with an Ember II who haven't tried them you're missing a treat. (and they are equally compelling in the Mjolnir 2).  Don't know about other amps, but if your amp can accomodate them I highly recommend you give them a try.  Also, they are relatively in-expensive.


----------



## koover

DRHamp said:


> Just a side note here - as I listen through some 100+ tubes, I have fallen in love (AGAIN) with the 2C51/5670s.  For any of you with an Ember II who haven't tried them you're missing a treat. (and they are equally compelling in the Mjolnir 2).  Don't know about other amps, but if your amp can accomodate them I highly recommend you give them a try.  Also, they are relatively in-expensive.


Just make sure you get the adapter. Get the one Jeremy made custom from Garage 1217. It’s the most quality adapter out there bar none.


----------



## DRHamp (Feb 22, 2019)

Test link removed


----------



## Astral Abyss (Feb 22, 2019)

DRHamp said:


> A test to see if my linked list is viewable from here:
> 
> Please let me know if the list is not viewable by you -- its a prelim list
> i will remove this post later



It's working.


----------



## DRHamp (Mar 9, 2019)

Ok, here's the link to my surplus tube inventory.  Send me a PM on any you are interested in and I'll pack them and PM you back with my Paypal email and the total price to include shipping.  Also PM with any questions.
First come, first served and Thanks for looking.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OIAiSvVp6VP_rmQwaKf-G5OUEShxehp8tak4Oc9kR58/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## Tuneslover

I picked up a few nice tubes last week for my Project Ember that presents a nice wide soundstage to my Sennheiser HD58X headphones...JJ ECC802S and GE 6C6G/6fQ7.  These tubes are very detailed and clear sounding, along with nice deep bass when the music calls for it.  The best tubes I've purchased in a while.  The week before that I purchased the very good sounding Genalax Gold Lion 12AT7 and the warm and tubey sounding EH 6N30P Gold Pin.  Great assortment of tubes!


----------



## DRHamp

The ECC802/12AU7 are some of the better tubes I've heard in the Ember and in the Mjolnir 2.  Not familiar with the 6C6G, does it require an adapter in the Ember?  I've not been a fan of the current day Gold Lions, but some of the Mullard, Valvo, and Telefunken 12AT7s are outstanding.


----------



## Tuneslover

DRHamp said:


> The ECC802/12AU7 are some of the better tubes I've heard in the Ember and in the Mjolnir 2.  Not familiar with the 6C6G, does it require an adapter in the Ember?  I've not been a fan of the current day Gold Lions, but some of the Mullard, Valvo, and Telefunken 12AT7s are outstanding.



No the 6CG6 doesn't need an adaptor.


----------



## nwavesailor (May 5, 2019)

@DRHamp has a pretty extensive trial of 2C51 / 396A / 5670 in the Ember and other amps. I believe he has also used these (with Jeremy's adapters?) in the Cavelli Liquid Platinum with success. Perhaps a list of what versions I should be looking for if I travel down this new tubes to me rabbit hole?


----------



## DRHamp

For me, the Holy Grails in the 2C51/5670/6N3P family are:  1950s Western Electric 396A & 1950s Foton triple mica 6N3P.  They are excellent in the Ember, the Liquid Platinum, and the Mjolnir 2.
These are difficult to find


----------



## nwavesailor (May 14, 2019)

Are the 1960 vintage WE (seem to be available) the second best option? If not 'Holy Grail' level tubes, are some of the Tung Sol or Raytheons or others pretty good as well in the LP?

Are you using Jeremy's Garage 1217 adapters?


----------



## DRHamp

Never heard the 60s WEs so not sure about that.  50s Foton double micas are very good, and I had some 1985 Russian Reflector 6N3P that were outstanding - not equal to the Holy Grails mentioned before but very very good and cheap.  I have some 60s Raytheon 5670 square getters that are good also.  Don't recall if I tried Tungsols, but if so - they didn't make an impression.


----------



## koover (May 5, 2019)

I don't know about this seller but this is the size lot I got back in 2017. These tubes are incredibly good for the money. The seller I got mine from a few years back sold them for the same price (for 8 tubes) that were NOS) but now, he sells matched pairs for $70+ His storefront is Jetparts.

You can give these a try as they're super cheap.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-x-RARE-6...037593?hash=item2f2d1869d9:g:IEoAAOSwHYVaeUnl

Or these
https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-x-6N3P-2...533172?hash=item4d86a66374:g:c6oAAOSwo4pYTh6s

Or even this one but it's not a 2c51 variant, Still excellent especially for the money
. https://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-MATCHED...190582?hash=item3b146456b6:g:3MUAAOSwzaJYBLC~


----------



## nwavesailor (May 14, 2019)

DRHamp said:


> Never heard the 60s WEs so not sure about that.  50s Foton double micas are very good, and I had some 1985 Russian Reflector 6N3P that were outstanding - not equal to the Holy Grails mentioned before but very very good and cheap.  I have some 60s Raytheon 5670 square getters that are good also.  Don't recall if I tried Tungsols, but if so - they didn't make an impression.



Thanks for your help and opinion DRhamp, particularly in the LP. I will move over to the LP tube thread and don't want  to derail the Ember tube rolling thread! I do own a Garage 1217 really basic amp, Project Starlight, and am very happy with the opamp and tube rolling this allows! Was't quite sure if folks had done more than 6zdj8 / 6922 / 7308's in the LPuntil I _finally_ found the TP tube rolling thread.


----------



## DRHamp

The ones @koover mentioned from jetparts on EBay are the 85 Reflektors I mentioned ( in fact, Koover led me to him) - I paid $22 for 8 of them, and that included shipping from Russia - they are still one of my all-time favorites


----------



## nwavesailor

DRHamp said:


> The ones @koover mentioned from jetparts on EBay are the 85 Reflektors I mentioned ( in fact, Koover led me to him) - I paid $22 for 8 of them, and that included shipping from Russia - they are still one of my all-time favorites



YIKES! We go from WE 369A at real $$$ to the Russian version for almost no $ and there are 8 of them in the lot!


----------



## koover

nwavesailor said:


> YIKES! We go from WE 369A at real $$$ to the Russian version for almost no $ and there are 8 of them in the lot!


Trust me (yeah right, haha) these are literally a steal. Go for it. Especially the ones in the 1970’s. Check out all the links as they’re all very very good for the money. If you don’t like the cheapies, I’ll buy them from you. But I’ll wager you’ll like them for less then a $1 a tube. Lol 
Personally I have 4 pairs of the Redlektor triple micas and they’re a hair below the Foton triple micas which are as rare as a unicorn.


----------



## DRHamp

I may still have a few of those Reflektors - I'll chk and let you know


----------



## RoyGB

Alright. I've read 132 pages of this tube rolling thread. It has definitely been super helpful and insightful as this is my first foray into tubes. And I feel that I have learned a ton about tubes by reading through all of this. But I don't know how much more of this I can take.

I was hoping that I could get a good summary going of what the rest of this thread encompasses (130-219).

Is the 6J5 adapter still king?
If so what are the recommended tubes?
If not, what is the new king?


----------



## Amish

@RoyGB From my personal experience, I would say it was never the king, though some might disagree. It was just one more way to roll another tube type. Ultimately there are so many tubes that can be run in this amp it is crazy. Of all the tubes I own, including that adapter and 6SN7 tubes I rolled with it, my all-time favorite tube was a 12AX7.

With an amp like this that tubes can really make a difference, it would be a shame to just take my word for it. You need to just play around with it. Experience it for your self.


----------



## DRHamp

I don't use the Ember very much any more as I seldom listen through headphones but as @Amish said, it's crazy versatile with the number of different tubes it will accomodate and add to that the various adapters from Jeremy and the number is multiplied several times.  As I think back, most of my favorites were either the 2C51 variants or the 12AU7 variants from Valvo, Mullard, .... etc.  Many of the 6SN7 variants were quite good also.
In the end it's a personal choice and what sounds good to your ear.


----------



## Amish (May 18, 2020)

Personally I have owned this amp twice. I do not currently own it, though I do have the Polaris on hand which surprisingly sounds a lot like the Ember. I digress; I owned the gen 1 and gen 2 amp and I would have a place for it in my collection now if it arrived within an enclosed case. The open concept is neat but I would prefer a non-open design. Just so it would match the rest of my gear. I have been so tempted to have a box designed so I can transplant the Ember into a proper case. I do love the Ember though.


----------



## RoyGB

@Amish you could probably get a custom one out of acrylic. Might cost you about $50-150 but acrylic sandwich stuff is common enough. A quick google search around your area should yield some acrylic cutting services. Or just knowing someone in your area with a laser cutter. Makerspaces are also a great idea to either do it yourself or find someone willing to take on the job. Granted most of this would need to wait until things get back to normal if you want to do it locally. If not there are some places online. Might be worthwhile to also ask around the mechanical keyboard community as well. Acrylic sandwich keyboards are fairly common, and there are a couple of people that do take commissions. Also, what 12AX7 were you a fan of? Buying a bunch of tubes right now and might pick one up.


----------



## RoyGB (Jun 10, 2020)

Alright just finished spending a small fortune on tubes and adapters

Here is the current haul:

6SN7 Family

Sylvania Brown Base JAN CHS 6SN7WGT T plate (213 date code so these may be bad boy 3 hole T plates) Seller seemed to not realize any of this and got this this tube well below 52' Brown base going rates. Especially since it tested over 100%
Whatever Sylvania Black base Jeremy is sending me with the 6SN7 adapter
2 Silvertone (Sylvania) 6SN7 angled black T plate
Magnavox (Sylvania??) 6SN7 grey angled T plate
Tung-Sol 6SN7 Black T Plate
Crosley (Sylvania) 2 Hole imitation Bad Boy 6SN7
Also have a bid on a pair of Hoytron 6SN7GT T plates that ends in 2 hours. These may or may not arrive.

6J5 Family

Sylvania 6J5G round plate
Zenith 6J5G Black round plate. Got a strong matched pair at a very reasonable price.
Hoytron 6C5GT matched date NOS
76 Family
These have an adapter that goes from 6J5 to 76/56/47/46/37/27/24/FU7/807 there is also a direct 6SN7 to 76 adapter that you can purchase as well. CORRECTION (Only the 76 and 37 have the correct amperage the rest WILL NOT WORK)

Arcturus (National Union) JAN-CNU-76 (Type 76)
Sylvania Type 76
Tung Sol Type 76
RCA Type 56
Sylvania Type 56
RCA radiotron Type 37 This one is a bulb shaped tube from the 30's. Picked it up out of curiosity Image

We will see how it all goes. I want to get a pair or two of 6C5G's just because they look so damn good. Mesh plates and chrome glass with the coke bottle shape just looks incredible. I wish there was an adapterless glass bottom tube that looked like this. Get some LED glow going into it and it would be a beauty. Even a dual triode would look awesome.

I also want to try out some 6A6's, 6N7, and 6SL7, 2C51, and some adapter-less 6V tubes at some point but that is a task for a different day and a different wallet. If you have your eye on any of these, I will likely be selling some or most of these tubes once I have some time with them and can determine which ones I like the best. Impressions to come as things arrive. I will likely trickle out reviews and then do a big summary at the end.

Right now I have a EH 12BH7AEH sitting in my Ember that I enjoy although I don't feel it does enough tube things to the sound for my tastes.


----------



## Astral Abyss

@RoyGB I'll be looking forward to your impressions on these tubes.

You may not be as excited with the 6C5Gs once you hear them.  They pick up a lot of noise/interference and don't have as nice of a tone as the 6J5Gs.  A bit harsher and brittle sounding.  
I've been running a pair of 1930s National Union 6J5Gs in my Ember for a couple years now.  I've pretty much decided that they sound the best, to me.  I hadn't considered the 76 or 56 tube.  Now you've got me thinking that I might have to check them out.


----------



## RoyGB (May 27, 2020)

Is anyone else's 6SN7 adapter crazy tight. I'm putting in close to a max effort shoulder blade pull and every 6SN7 that I have tried in the socket so far has been difficult to remove. I've emailed Jeremy about it, but also wanted to ask here as well. No technique is making things easier. It feels like something is going to break every time I try to remove a tube.

EDIT: Turns out it was the tube that Jeremy sent over. It was a Sylvania 6SN7 GTB coin base angled T plates. This thing does not like to come out. I got unlucky, when I tried another tube and experienced the same thing, but the issue was mainly isolated to these two tubes. Others were easier, but most still feel like a really tight fit.


----------



## RoyGB (May 27, 2020)

Alright. So these are* first impressions* of everything that I have tested so far.

Testing methodology:

Testing running USB from my PC to a Monolith THX 788 DAC+AMP pre-out to the Ember. Ember is set to high gain (WO/AM), going through the input caps (BP-R), low impedance setting. Testing using my Denon D9200 (Flagship, TOTL headphones, biodynamic, very slightly V-shaped, strong detail retrieval in all ranges, fantastic soundstaging, elevated treble, 24 ohm, easy to drive) and HD6XX/650 (Warm, rolled off bass and treble, midrange/vocalst focused, alright you probably already know what these sound like). I am mainly after tubes that work well with my 9200's. 6XX are a secondary consideration.


The playlist that I was using is this. It should be noted that I was searching out certain points in most of these songs, or utilizing them for certain frequency ranges or instruments.
I let each tube warm up for about 3-5 minutes. Not ideal, but then again most tubes normalize after like 60 seconds and I am trying to retain some memory of what things sound like. Because I cannot do direct tube comparisons, I used my Solid state as an intermediate step. Jumping back and forth between tube and solid state to compare the relative differences.

I had the choice of going low gain and playing with the volume every time switching between my Monolith and Ember. This would have lowered the tubes noise floor but would have resulted in likely volume mismatch, or I could match the volumes and have a slightly higher noisefloor which could impact my impressions due to percieved distortion just being noise. This is the option that I opted for. Volpot was set to noon-ish, and volume matched to the 788. It should be noted that the Monolith has a digital volume control for the DAC pre-out and anytime volume was adjusted it was done with the DAC and not the Ember.

My main interest in a tube amp is 'tubeyness' namely harmonic distortion, slower decay, 'holographic' sound, euphonic sound, etc... . I am not in the tube games to elevate my headphones detail or clarity, or to use it as an expensive EQ, or something that is going to sound like solid state. If I want clean accurate performance or coloration, I have solid state, and a couple of different headphones for that. I write this so you know what my biases are and what I am looking to get out of tubes. Many other reviews on this thread don't really go into what gear they are using, what they are using for comparison, and what they are after in their music. As such, sometimes it can be hard to really know what you are getting yourself into. This is with my ears, and my tubes so YMMV.

Once again these are *first impressions*. More in depth impressions to come later:

Tubes I like:

Sylvania 6SN7 GTB Coin Base- I think that this tube has potential. Reminds me of my EH 12BH7. Not the tubiest tube, but unnofensive and still nice to listen to. More testing is needed. Also, this thing is literally impossible to get in and out of the adapter. To the point where I am only able to do so with a screwdriver acting as a pry tool. This is the tube that Jeremy sent with the adapter.
Tung Sol 6SN7 GT Black 3 hole T plate- This tube seems the tubiest of all the tubes I have tested so far. Noisefloor is one of the quietest of the 6SN7's as well. Overall this tube is a clear frontrunner for me.
Silvertone 6SN7GTB- One of these does more tubey things than the other and to be frank I forgot which one was which. So now I need to go back and test both to see if my initial impressions were correct.
Electro Harmonix 12BH7AEH (normal not gold)- Favorite 9 pin that I have tried for the same reason. Does tube things to the sound. Although not as much as some of the 6SN7's. But a very nice warm tube. Unoffensive and enjoyable. This was my main tube before I got these 6SN7's

Tubes that were meh:

These tubes sounded too close to solid state for me. I'll likely give them another go, but they were just kinda meh during my initial impressions. I have a cable for my D9200's that I feel does more for my music than some of these tubes. These will likely be sold if you have your eye on any of them unless something crazy happens in my second listening session.


Crossley (sylvania) 6SN7GT Imitation 2 hole bad boy: DOA, strong buzzing in left channel. Refunding this one.
Magnavox (?Sylvania?)6SN7 GT: Didn't do enough that made it special. Also had some microphonics that made it sound like a spring was being flicked. Was not audible when not touching the amp though. Only when unplugging/plugging and intentional tapping.
Silvertone 6SN7GTB- One of these felt like it did more than the other. This one sounded a bit hollow and treble elevated.
Sylvania VT-231 6SN7W GT Brown Base bad boy 3 hole T plates (213 date stamp)- I had big hopes for this tube. It literally checked all the boxes of every 6SN7 fetishizer. Tested over 100%, strongly matched triodes. 1942 3-hole Bad Boy T-Plates, brown base, 6SN7W. And I got this tube on a steal for like $25. This is like an $80+ tube. But alas, it was just meh. I didn't really feel like it did anything special for me. If I had to take a guess this tube probably does stellar on some OTL tube amps where they are feeding it more than 48 V in a plate starved hybrid design like the Ember. I almost want to build an output transformer coupled tube amp just so I can actually use this tube to it's potential (and have a balanced output). I hate to get rid of it, but it is likely going unless my next listening session or two completely changes up the story with this guy.
Russian 6N6P: I have 2 of these, came with the unit when I purchased it. They do nothing for me. And to be truthful, I don't really even hear the 'elevated bass' that these are known for. I'll give it another listen but I have not been the most impressed with these. Jeremy likes to reccomend these though based on my conversations with him, so I may be in the minority here.
CONN (RCA) Cleartop 12AU7A- I don't get this tube at all. Just not good IMO. It is also very noisy and did not pair well with my low impedance Denons, which leaves the Sennheisers, and I like what the EH 9-pin does better than this tube.

I'm still waiting for my 6J5 and 76 adapters to arrive. I am really excited to try out the Zeniths. Others have commented that they are a more euphonic tube. Which if that means what I think it means, then I will probably like it. Then again the same thing was said about Sylvania Brown Bases earlier in this thread. I also have some deoxit which I am going to be applying to all the tube pins at some point. That may change things up but I am not too hopeful.

I'm open to recommendations. Once these tubes go out the door, new ones are likely going to be replacing them.


----------



## RoyGB (May 30, 2020)

Anyone know any solutions for audio cutting out on one side (it gets to crosstalk levels of quiet and you can still hear equal noise out of both channels). I'm really hoping that this is not a bad triode on my Tung Sol because it is my favorite tube and I don't want to go tube hunting for another one and hope it sounds the same. Usually if I reseat the tube in the 6SN7 adapter the issue goes away for a bit. Alternatively sometimes a powercycle resolves it. The test readings are E: 77/86 G: 86/88 it is the left side that cuts out. (to be honest I have no idea what those letters mean and what they correspond to. I'm just reading what is on the sticker on the tube. I have maybe 10 hours on it since then).

I have already used deoxit on the pins.


----------



## RoyGB (Jun 10, 2020)

Impressions coming soon of the 6J5 and 76 series tubes.

Also a correction to my earlier posting. The 76 adapters only support 76 and 37 tubes. All others require far to much amperage for the Ember to provide. So the 2 pairs of 56 tubes I bought are not going to work. Woe is me I suppose. Hopefully I will be able to recoup the ~$50-80 I spent on these 2 pairs.

The 76 and 37 are both 6.3V 0.3A the 56 and tube series that share the 76 pinout all require in excess of 1A per tube.

As a sneak peak:
76's have incredibly low noisefloor. Interesting sound. Still trying to wrap my head around what is happening.
Having some issues with my 6j5 pairs. More to come.
The 37 bulb tubes are some of the sexiest things that I have seen on my ember. Really taking to the looks of these. Even with the franken adapters going on.


----------



## RoyGB (Jun 24, 2020)

*PART 1 Single Triodes:*
Alright Here we go. Gonna break this up into two parts. I intend to release part two tomorrow. Not that it really matters it seems. Thread is kinda dead. Mainly been talking to myself here recently.

Testing methodology and gear used is detailed above. With the inclusion of my stereo system (788 DAC preout -> Ember tube buffer -> Denon PMA 800NE -> SVS Ultra Bookshelf + SVS SB12 NSD  with its own preamp used to independently control subwoofer volume.)

Some context to some of the phraseology that I am using:


*Detail:* Actually detail. Articulation and clarity. Not just treble like some people seem to confuse detail for.
*Dynamics:* Delta between the quietest and loudest parts of a song. This partly ties into detail because at normal volumes if dynamic range is reduced, details that are only apparent at louder volumes may be lost.
*Smooth:* Loss of some detail and texture presenting a less analytical but more... well smooth sound. I guess a good analogy would be applying a soft filter to a photo.
*Tubeyness/Distingushable from Solid State: *Tubes are such an amalgamation soup of different things going on that to pin this to one characteristic would be wrong. I perceive tubeyness as a mixture between several characteristics that I would describe as euphonic, warm, and smooth. The biggest factor is that is is easily distinguishable from solid state in a way that does not just nerf detail or dynamics. You will also see this
*Tube treble:* Pretty much all tubes I tried had some sort of rolloff of the upper treble. As well as a loss of detail. I am sure that this helps contribute to the warmth that most tubes have. That being said tube treble does not mean the tube will provide a warm characteristic.
*Noisefloor:* tube hiss or hum. I am mainly rating this with my Denon D9200's. Which are a 24 ohm headphone.
*Arcturus (National Union) 76:*
_Coolest Boxes Award



_

See below for the audio characteristic but with a coke bottle shape. And dead quiet noisefloor. Blue lettering is also cool.
*RCA 37:*
_Æ S T H E T H I C C Award


_

Sexiest tube. For some reason I really dig the look of these things. Photos don’t really do it justice. The bulb tube towers just have something about it that I adore looking at. Bulb tube towers >>>>>>> Coke bottle tube tower. And I went into this thinking that the coke bottles were going to look the best.

I just really wish the adapter had a black PCB. In fact, I would pay decent money to get a black PCB 6J5 adapter. The green is a big eyesore imo.

Soundwise. They kill detail everywhere and do not have the greatest dynamic range. They are also susceptible to noise if your hand or other electronics get close to them. An interesting listen if you really want to emulate a ‘old music experience’ for lack of better phrasing. Comparable to the Arcturus (National Union) 76 tubes.

Easily distinguishable from SS (but for all the wrong reasons).
Average noisefloor

*Sylvania 76:*
_Quietest Award_

Midrange dynamics and detail suffer. Don’t really do anything remarkable. Not really tubey.

Their redeeming factor is near solid state levels of noise floor. Seriously. I paired these with some IEM’s and my 24ohm Denon’s and noisefloor was very quiet.

Not easily distinguishable from SS
Not Tubey
Almost SS levels of noisefloor

*Zenith 6J5:*
_Technical Achievement award



_

I can see why people like these tubes. They have great bass dynamics and overall retain much of the microdetail that is lost on other tubes. They are a very good technical performer, that being said, they were not ‘tubey’ moreso they were really good at reproducing audio. Their defining characteristics are an elevated bass slam and elevated vocal midrange this is done without necessarily sounding warm. Very neutral. Typical tube treble. Would say about 90-95% of the detail and cleanliness of solidstate.

Noisefloor is just shy of 50th percentile for tubes I tried. Not crazy noisy, but this tube is just below average for noisefloor.
Not easily distinguishable from SS.

*Hytron 6C5:*
_GALILEO__ galileo __Award


_

Took a gamble on these tubes. Seller listed them as NIB. But they were previously tested and likely used. There was a ‘good 1/17/70’ on one of the flaps on the original boxes that these came with. These had a channel imbalance, so I was not able to accurately assess these tubes. These had a noise issue as well.

From what I was able to glean, these were warm and pleasant. But outside of that, I don’t want to speak in absolutes for such a poor testing experience.

*Tung Sol 76 Top mica fins*
_1st Place award_



Lush, good bass dynamics, retains a good amount of detail while still providing a fair bit of tube character. More smooth than warm, but is on the warmer side of neutral. The defining characteristics are definitely the tube character that these provide. These tubes sounded wonderful on everything. My first impression were that I liked the  Tung Sol 6SN7 better but after several back and fourths my appreciation of these continuously grew. These will become my default tubes and will have a permanent home in my ember.

Low noisefloor
Easily distinguishable from SS

Part Two on Double triodes coming tomorrow


----------



## Astral Abyss

RoyGB said:


> *PART 1 Single Triodes:*
> Alright Here we go. Gonna break this up into two parts. I intend to release part two tomorrow. Not that it really matters it seems. Thread is kinda dead. Mainly been talking to myself here recently.
> 
> Testing methodology and gear used is detailed above. With the inclusion of my stereo system (788 DAC preout -> Ember tube buffer -> Denon PMA 800NE -> SVS Ultra Bookshelf + SVS SB12 NSD  with its own preamp used to independently control subwoofer volume.)
> ...


Very cool review.  

You may be the first person to try these tubes in Ember.  That being said, I am a 6J5G lover.  I've got a few pairs of National Unions and they are a permanent staple for me in the Ember.  They just do everything right.  Your comments on them mirror my own.


----------



## RoyGB (Jun 24, 2020)

I'll have to try those out if I can find a pair. I also want to try another pair of Hytron 6C5's because they seemed to have a lot of potential. But it seems that there is not another matched pair on the market right now and I cant find an individual tube that matches my pair. Maybe if @HOWIE13 might be willing to sell his Hytrons. That is the only other person I know who has a pair.

I feel like there is so many tubes to try. The ability to roll just about any preamp tube is a curse.


----------



## RoyGB (Jun 25, 2020)

*PART 2 Dual Triodes:*

Testing methodology and everything else was laid out in part 1. Just to clarify as well. Above average noisefloor means it is nosier than what my brain defines as 'average tube noisefloor'. Below average means it is quieter. Super arbitrary system but it is only for refrence


*Sylvania 6SN7GTB Coin Base angled T plates:*
_I heard that award_





Sylvania sound signature. Recessed bass with loss of detail and dynamics good mids and highs with less ‘tube treble’ character than most. This tube does sound different from the Silvertone but I cant quite pinpoint it*. Likely just a change in tube character messing with the FR a bit.
*see Silvertone review.

Distinguishable from SS (less so than most)
Below Average noisefloor, sensitive to electronic noise. I can hear whines anytime I move my mouse with this tube. Likewise I can hear noise from my DAC+AMP whenever I have it set to headphone out and have my cans plugged into my tube amp.

*Silvertone (Sylvania) 6SN7GTB Grey angled T plates top O getter:*
_Box of chocolates award_





Classic Sylvania sound signature with a bit more bass than the Coin base. This tube sounds tubeier. Better dynamics overall. Retains the sylvania treble with a slightly elevated amount of bass. It has some tube character to it as well. I feel like every time I listen to this tube I get a different impression of it. The last time I used this tube, I swear that it had less than SS bass dynamics and comparable sound to the coin base with some FR differences. Now it feels like a really strong performer with elevated bass solid midrange and trebles and some tube warmth to boot. And other times I was just completely underwhelmed. And to make it worse I have two of these. Yea, IDK just get one of these I suppose and you will have the entire gamut of tube experiences at your disposal on a random basis. I think it might be track dependent but TBH I have no idea. Might also be a characteristic of the tube warming up and changing its FR.

Distinguishable from SS (track dependent)
Tubey???
above average noisefloor

*Tung Sol 6SN7 3 hole black T plate, top getter rectangular micas-*
_Tubey Award_





I like this tube a lot it is 2nd only to the Tung Sol 76's. The only downside that I can find is that it has worse than most SS dynamics. In fact the dynamics and detail retrieval are just a bit worse everywhere relative to . But this is by far the smoothest and most pleasant tube to listen to out of everything that I have tried. It has a lot of tube character and is a really good if you just want to relax and not go detail hunting. It is noticeably warm, very smooth, and pleasant overall. I would say it is 'tubier' than the Tung Sol 76's but it comes at the price of audio performance. Both are fantastic though.

Easily distinguishable from SS
Noisefloor is slightly above average.

*Sylvania Brown Base 6SN7W GT VT-231 213 date code 3 hole T plate (bad boy year):*
_Biggest Disappointment award


_

Very good technical performer. Nothing to really complain about other than it just kinda sounds like solid state. Recesses sub bass relative to solid state but seems to do something with upper bass.IDK if it is a result of the subbass rolloff or something else. Also seems to excite the treble in a couple of frequencies but not in a ‘shelf eq’ way. Very good performer if you are after something close to solid state and neutral.

Not easily distinguishable from SS
Not really tubey
Average noisefloor

*Magnavox 6SN7GTB:*
_Worlds okayest tube award_

Okay dynamics, okay detail, typical tube treble. Microphonic as well

Not really tubey,
not really all that discernible from SS.
Okay noisefloor. 6/10.

*Electro Harmonix 12BH7AEH*
_Starter Tube Award


_

Not a bad tube in any capacity. If you want something with some of that tube character to it without breaking the bank, this tube gets my recommendation. Sounded great on my 6XX’s and my D9200’s.

Does just enough to the sound to distinguish it from SS. This tube has a very subtle tube character, but it is definitely there. The best part is you can buy this tube straight from Jeremy. Out of the 1 new production starter tubes that I have tried I can say this is my favorite new production tube. I felt this does more to the 6XX's than to my D9200's. As for what they do to the sound. It very subtly pushes the sound into being 'different'. From my best interpretation, it adds more color and vividness to some of the midrange. Things sounded relatively flat and dry on solidstate compared to this tube almost like extracting extra detail. It is very subtle though and it is something you are going to need some back and forth to discover or a really really good ear for finding differences. Once you know it is there you are able to appreciate it a bit better.

above average noisefloor
Borderline tubey
borderline distinguishable from SS

*Conn (RCA) Clear top 12AU7A:*
_Last Place Award



_

Did not like this tube at all. messed with sound in all the wrong ways and had one of the worst noise floors out of all the tubes I tried. It made solid state sound tubey. Going back to solidstate, I was immediately greeted with warmth and fullness that was missing from this tubes presentation. Soooo. Yea.

Not really tubey
Distinguishable from Solid State
Worst noise floor

*Russian 6N6P*
_This tube somehow only plays Russian Hardbass award. _




My amp came with two of these when I purchased it, both sounded identical to my ears.

Meh. People say this tube is a good tube for bass. I kinda see where they are coming from. My first impression was that these only seem like they have elevated bass because they dampen the mids and highs.

My longer impression was that was almost the story. These have several things going for them. 1 is a certain frequency range just feels like it is gone. IDK exactly what it is, but if I had to take a wild guess it sounds like someone may have taken a giant scoop out of the midrange and those frequencies are just gone. Now what is actually happening is likely something completely different but this is how I am going to describe it. Once again tubes are a soup sandwich of sound. They mess things up in so many ways that just saying definitively it is 1 thing that is causing everything to happen would be wrong.

So outside of that scoop. Feels like these kill everything past 10k along with having typical tube treble. Now what I just described is essentially a harman curve, but I don’t think that these have a harman curve sound signature. So I really don’t know what is going on or how to describe it other than it feels like a chunk of audio is dampened tremendously. This does create a very soundstagey presentation so it might be worth considering if you are into that. I felt that these did a decent job at linearizing the 6XX/650’s if that is something you may be after as well.

Distinguishable from SS
Not really tubey
Below average noisefloor.

*Crossley 6SN7 Imitation bad boy:*
_borked award


_

Couldn't test. One side either cut out or put out a tremendous amount of noise.

At the end of the day I will be keeping:
Keep:
Tung Sol 76's (Default tube)
Tung Sol 6SN7 (For relaxed sessions)
RCA 37's (I just like to look at them. Unless a good sounding pair of globe tubes cross my desk at some point)
Hytron 6C5 (These have potential and I want to try them if I can get a matched pair/ matched single.)

Keep for now maybe sell:
EH 12BH7 (I want to keep at least 1 noval)
Zenith 6J5 (Why not)
Silvertone 6SN7 (Keep 1 sell 1)
Russian 6N6P (Keep 1 sell 1)

Selling:
RCA Clear Top
Sylvania 76
Russian 6N6P
Sylvania Coin Base 6SN7
Magnavox 6SN7
The pairs of 56's that I bought and cant use (I only recall purchasing two pairs but somehow have three)
Sylvania 6SN7W brown base
Arcturus 76's
Silvertone 6SN7


----------



## RoyGB (Jun 26, 2020)

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/post-15600939



Deyan said:


> Well @oakparkmusicguy there it is.
> 
> 
> The bottom plug can rotate in order to fit the layout of the amp.



Over on the Vali tube rolling thread user @Deyan is making custom 7A4 adapters. He is also making a 7N7 adapter as well from the looks of it.
I don't know if anyone has tried the 7N7 or 7A4 tubes in the ember. A quick search yeilds nothing. I just bought 3 more pairs of 6J5 + 76 tubes so I really don't have the cash to go experimenting with a whole new adapter and type of tube right now but figured I would drop this here. It also looks like you can buy them on ebay from xulingmrs who sells pretty much all the tube adapters.

Likewise 6A6 and 6N7 family is fairly untested at this point as well. It seems like Howie13 was the only one to really test these tubes out.


----------



## Deyan

RoyGB said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/post-15600939
> 
> 
> 
> ...



" custom" is the key word here. So I'm also making all the tube adapters.


----------



## Makiah S

Love to see some action still present here! 

Sadly tho despite having DOVE right into the Deep end of the GE 6072 12AY7 pool, and yes I got the holy grail 58/59 Triple Mica with 100%/100% matched triodes [because what else is there?] 

Anyways, 3 GE 6072[a]s later and honestly I still prefer my Psvanne CT181-T II. It's staging is really top notch and while a few of the tubes had a touch more air and better bass texture they just lacked that big cohesive staging I liked about my Psvanne

I will say the GE 5 Star tho was my favorite in Ember, an yea I run the amp with all bypass on and the input attenuation removed. Output Z was set to Low and I did my listening with my Aeon 2 Closed [solid silver cable]


----------



## RoyGB

Mshenay said:


> Love to see some action still present here!
> 
> Sadly tho despite having DOVE right into the Deep end of the GE 6072 12AY7 pool, and yes I got the holy grail 58/59 Triple Mica with 100%/100% matched triodes [because what else is there?]
> 
> ...


What would you say the defining characteristics of those tubes were that you were going for? I have a GE 3 mica 5 star 6201 12at7 coming in along with an Amperex holland 6DJ8. I wanted to try a couple more novals before I opt for another buying round of 6SN7 equivalents.

I've been wanting to try a Psvanne as well. But I am concerned it is not going to be what I am after in terms of tube character.

I also noticed that you had a pair of Hytron 6C5's at one point. Do you know if the person you sold it to is active or might be willing to sell them at all? I'm on a hunt for a good matched pair of those at the moment.


----------



## Makiah S

RoyGB said:


> What would you say the defining characteristics of those tubes were that you were going for? I have a GE 3 mica 5 star 6201 12at7 coming in along with an Amperex holland 6DJ8. I wanted to try a couple more novals before I opt for another buying round of 6SN7 equivalents.
> 
> I've been wanting to try a Psvanne as well. But I am concerned it is not going to be what I am after in terms of tube character.
> 
> I also noticed that you had a *pair of Hytron 6C5's* at one point. Do you know if the person you sold it to is active or might be willing to sell them at all? I'm on a hunt for a good matched pair of those at the moment.



I did... yikes must not have been too memorable 

The GE 6072/12ay7s are airy with a lean tonality and not harsh, 

The Psvannge ct181 Tii on the other hand has a nice tonality and a BIG stage, bass is detailed with a little bloom and heft. The Sylvania 6sn7s and GE 6072s I got have the same airy lean presentation imo, The GE 5 Star has a nice touch of bloom and body in the Ember it's a lot like the Psvanne CT181 tho without as much clarity


----------



## RoyGB (Jul 5, 2020)

Just a heads up. There is a very new and very alive (at the time of posting) 6J5 thread here. I just stumbled upon it and figured I would share considering Embers relationship with the 6J5.

That being said most of the guys over there seem to be coming from the other end of the tube audio spectrum. Expensive OTC stuff. Regardless, might as well share this with everyone over here. Might be a nice resource at some point in time.

On another note expect Part 3 later this month. I have 5-6 more pairs of tubes coming in including some novals...

Yea I really need to start selling some of these tubes. I am pretty much at my limit at this point until I can get some of these out the door.


----------



## RoyGB

@Mshenay

You seem to have dealt with a lot of audio gear. What makes you stick with the Ember over the other tube gear you have tried? 

A lot of people seem not to like tube hybrids or plate starved designs, and instead tend to gravitate towards OTC or OTL stuff. Does the Ember compete with other stuff you have heard or is it just a price thing?


----------



## RoyGB

More tubes incoming. I'm going to be away for a couple of weeks for work so I wont be able to post impressions of any of these tubes until I get back.

Expect part 3 to drop close to the end of the month. You can also catch a sneak peak of some of them over in the 6J5 thread.


----------



## Deaf ear

RoyGB said:


> https://www.head-fi.org/threads/vali-2-tube-rolling.793982/post-15600939
> 
> I don't know if anyone has tried the 7N7 or 7A4 tubes in the ember.



Ive used 7A4 and like them. I got an adapter from ebay seller: xulingmrs
Its the only adapter from her that isnt perfect. Which is why i dont use them much. She also sells an ecc88 - 6922 adapter that runs 6AG5wa pentodes in triode mode. They have a lot of mid bass and are kind of unique sounding.

Its nice ti see activity here. I have tried a ton of stuff, i just have a hard time quantifying it so i didnt write reviews.

I use a lot of 6N7 as well, and they are some of my favorites. I got a Visseaux 6N7 off of ebay for $35 and its really interesting. Tons of mids. 

It should be noted i have single sided deafness so my ember plays dual mono so I'm sure there are Sonic qualities that I'm missing out on. Though I try to use it to my advantage because I can buy tubes that are imbalanced.

There are ton of nine pin triodes that will work with the Amber that are not on Jeremy's list of tubes. I don't know if there's a reason for that but ive looked them up and mathematically they work in ember. I'll try to post a list of them when I think of it. 6bs8 is one i like. 12bz7 is another. It can be pretty microphonic though.


----------



## Amish

I still check this thread from time to time. I still think this is the best hybrid tube amp for the money. I have rolled a TON of tubes through this amp over the years and though I never tried the 7N7 I have used multiple new and NOS 6N7's with adapter and a butt load of vintage tubes from the 1950's through early 70's. Honestly I always go back to 12AX7 or 12AT7 Telefunkin or Amperex. They just sound better to me than any other tube I have tried.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Deaf ear said:


> There are ton of nine pin triodes that will work with the Amber that are not on Jeremy's list of tubes. I don't know if there's a reason for that but ive looked them up and mathematically they work in ember. I'll try to post a list of them when I think of it. 6bs8 is one i like. 12bz7 is another. It can be pretty microphonic though.



I think there are just too many to list, especially when including 7v heaters and adaptors.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Did anyone try variable gain tubes like ECC189 / PCC189? A very respected vendor listed them controversially as 6DJ8 / 7DJ8 equivalents http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm


----------



## Deaf ear

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Did anyone try variable gain tubes like ECC189 / PCC189? A very respected vendor listed them controversially as 6DJ8 / 7DJ8 equivalents http://www.audiotubes.com/6dj8.htm



Ive tried a couple. I "think" one was a GE and the other a Holland made Amperex. The Holland Amperex sounded better. Ive discovered other tubes i like more, so ive moved on. They were cheap which is why i tried it.  

Ive had to move my office 3 times, and each time i move, the tubes i thought sounded great at the old location just dont have the same magic, and some other variety does. So i say give it a shot. It might sound awesome.


----------



## Deaf ear

Here are some tube types that work with the Ember (version II or later for some of these) that arent on Jeremys list. They are 9 pin and dont need an adapter.

6BS8 - I've tried one and like it

12BZ7 - can be microphonic but can have real nice treble. Try to find the ones with longer black plates. They are a high gain 12AX7 i believe.

12FQ7 

12AV7

6BZ7


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Deaf ear said:


> Here are some tube types that work with the Ember (version II or later for some of these) that arent on Jeremys list. They are 9 pin and dont need an adapter.
> 
> 6BS8 - I've tried one and like it
> 12BZ7 - can be microphonic but can have real nice treble. Try to find the ones with longer black plates. They are a high gain 12AX7 i believe.
> ...



Are none of these true 12v heater ones that only work 100% in Solstice? As far as I know even on Ember/Sunrise you could hear some sound coming from e.g. 12SN7.

Also, did you try 6C8G? I am playing with some now and it seems that a Faraday cage is a must just like with 6SL7.


----------



## Deaf ear

tubebuyer2020 said:


> Are none of these true 12v heater ones that only work 100% in Solstice? As far as I know even on Ember/Sunrise you could hear some sound coming from e.g. 12SN7.
> 
> Also, did you try 6C8G? I am playing with some now and it seems that a Faraday cage is a must just like with 6SL7.



None of these are true 12v that require the Solstice (as far as i know). Ive used them all successfully in my Ember.

I dont have a faraday cage (yet). I have eliminated a lot of noise by running a ground wire. Frans recommends grounding to the line out rca (I think), But i just screw a wire into the post next to the line out and it works just fine for me. I have the wire grounded to the wall outlet plate cover screw.

I like the 6C8G but there is noise on the left channel that i believe is just part of the tube design. It works for me because i can put the noise on my deaf ear.  Sometimes I'll run it through my Fiio E17 on the line out and the noise is elimimated. I just think it reduces a lot of the tube magic so i dont really do it anymore. If you do go for these, anything with round plates right next to each other is good. I also have a Zenith with round plates on separate sides that i like a lot. But in general the ones with round plates next to each other i think sound better

I havent used the 6SL7, but want to. Have you tried them.


----------



## tubebuyer2020

Deaf ear said:


> I dont have a faraday cage (yet). I have eliminated a lot of noise by running a ground wire. Frans recommends grounding to the line out rca (I think), But i just screw a wire into the post next to the line out and it works just fine for me. I have the wire grounded to the wall outlet plate cover screw.



I have not found a good grounding point in my home yet, but just attaching that post to a tall enough kitchen foil barrier around tube/amp works well for me (though it looks terrible of course).



Deaf ear said:


> I like the 6C8G but there is noise on the left channel that i believe is just part of the tube design.



I see, very curious! The few I tried so far are like you described: high-pitch noise on the left channel and buzz on the right channel. I suspect the left-channel noise is due to the top cap wire being attached to the left side and picking-up whatever signals/ripples.



Deaf ear said:


> If you do go for these, anything with round plates right next to each other is good. I also have a Zenith with round plates on separate sides that i like a lot. But in general the ones with round plates next to each other i think sound better



I got a few common ones, but if I am lucky I might be able to get the construction you described as well.



Deaf ear said:


> I havent used the 6SL7, but want to. Have you tried them.



Yes, tried a brown military Sylvania and an gray glass RCA - noticeable buzz on both channels (as expected from a large tube on a 70 gain) that was helped with a Faraday cage. I am not the sort of person to describe the sound in detail but they did sound good when caged. Might be worth trying just one if you already have an adaptor and plenty of kitchen foil . The prices are not amazing. Please note I am using Sunrise and also as far as I remember had to bypass the capacitors in order to bias them (manually of course). Let me know if you would like me to retry those again, I only tried them briefly and moved on to other kinds out of curiosity and for pricing reasons.


----------



## elvispreasley

Just ordered Project Ember 2 and come here to ask you good suggestion for tube, that is sounding nice and has no problem with driving planar headphones. TY in advance


----------



## techboy

elvispreasley said:


> Just ordered Project Ember 2 and come here to ask you good suggestion for tube, that is sounding nice and has no problem with driving planar headphones. TY in advance



Get the 6sn7 adapter and buy a VT 231 Sylvania alongside. Best tube ever!


----------



## Ralf Hutter

Get the 6SN7 adapter and get yourself a Sylvania 6SN7GTA. 99% as good as the VT231 for less than half the price.


----------



## VRacer-111

If you like modded Porta Pros, the Russian 6H23N-EB tube in the Ember 2 works exceptionally well with them. Compared to the Electro-Harmonix 6H30Pi, you gain tremendous vocal presence and treble detail along with better separation/staging and a very 'live' sound - acoustic music is just something else. Bass level is a little less than the 6H30Pi along with a slightly less solid/thick overall sound, but it is tighter sounding... The modded Porta Pros with 6H23N-EB in the Ember fed from a laptop with DFR and Schiit Loki is a sole setup I would bring to any headphone meet and blow minds... clean, detailed treble and gorgeous vocals with tight, yet organic sounding bass from a sub $50 set of headphones... mids more gorgeous than HD650 with treble closer to a TH-X00 Purpleheart.


----------



## koover

VRacer-111 said:


> If you like modded Porta Pros, the Russian 6H23N-EB tube in the Ember 2 works exceptionally well with them. Compared to the Electro-Harmonix 6H30Pi, you gain tremendous vocal presence and treble detail along with better separation/staging and a very 'live' sound - acoustic music is just something else. Bass level is a little less than the 6H30Pi along with a slightly less solid/thick overall sound, but it is tighter sounding... The modded Porta Pros with 6H23N-EB in the Ember fed from a laptop with DFR and Schiit Loki is a sole setup I would bring to any headphone meet and blow minds... clean, detailed treble and gorgeous vocals with tight, yet organic sounding bass from a sub $50 set of headphones... mids more gorgeous than HD650 with treble closer to a TH-X00 Purpleheart.


That’s one heckava statement saying the PP/DFR and Loki with just that tube alone is better then the HD650’s mids.


----------



## VRacer-111

koover said:


> That’s one heckava statement saying the PP/DFR and Loki with just that tube alone is better then the HD650’s mids.


Well, the HD650/6XX is better technically, but it just sounds more flat/dry and boring in comparison... I much prefer euphonic, warm sounding headphones with very solid/rich presentation and powerful low end presence. The Porta Pro (modded) is all about beautiful sounding mids with a great supporting low end, has a rich, organic nature to the sound with a powerful/impactful presence. Not looking for 'neutral' or 'close to real as possible' headphones, I love an accentuated and soulfully engaginging listening experience that emphasises musicality and emotion over technicality. Reason I simply am not interested in most any planar headphones precisely for how flat and boring they to me in comparison to the warm, full sounding dynamics with low end presence I love. Also the the reason the Porta Pros (modded) are one of my most favorite headphones, maybe even moreso than my Purplehearts...


----------



## KillerQ

Hey, All,

Forgive my ignorance, but i appreciate your help in advance. 

I have rolled many 6SN7 tubes on my ember 2, and never had an issue. It’s amazing. Today, I got an adapter that goes from 2 6J5 tubes to a single 6SN7 connector that Incan plug right into my ember 2. I have two “ Matched Pair RCA 6P5 6P5G Foil Getters Shoulder ST Shape” tubes in it. 

Here are detailed pics of the adapter and the tubes: imgur.com/a/PMkfZqU

The problem is that, even through the volume level seems just the same as my other tubes, when I use the adapter, the bass seems distorted. Not overly loud and distorting, but like it can’t recreate the sound properly and it is distorted. 

Could it be that since I am using the double adapter than I now have to change some jumpers because the ember can’t drive the tubes properly or something like that?

I hope these end up working out. 

Thank you!!’


----------



## techboy

KillerQ said:


> Hey, All,
> 
> Forgive my ignorance, but i appreciate your help in advance.
> 
> ...



Could be defective tube(S), adapter(S). This is unrelated to jumpers etc. If it doesn’t sound right, all you can do is try different tube(S)/adapted(S), that’s it.


----------



## KillerQ (Nov 8, 2020)

I just tried one of these ground eliminators just to test that possibility. The him did not go away. When I unplugged the rca cables so that nothing was connected, the hum actually got worse.



Buuuuuut, I solved it!!!!

The ONLY thing I found was to touch BOTH rca cables connectors with one end of the foil and then touch the other end of the foil to the tops or both tubes. The hum is 99.95 % gone. As a matter of fact, I really have to concentrate to even hear it. Here’s the image https://imgur.com/a/mZSWy2K

So, I suppose I can experiment with how little of foil I actually need to accomplish this - I just wanted to mention it right away since I was so excited.

Any thoughts on a better solution? A new, discreet ground wire somewhere on the unit instead ?


----------



## tubebuyer2020

KillerQ said:


> The ONLY thing I found was to touch BOTH rca cables connectors with one end of the foil and then touch the other end of the foil to the tops or both tubes. The hum is 99.95 % gone. As a matter of fact, I really have to concentrate to even hear it. Here’s the image https://imgur.com/a/mZSWy2K
> 
> So, I suppose I can experiment with how little of foil I actually need to accomplish this - I just wanted to mention it right away since I was so excited.
> 
> Any thoughts on a better solution? A new, discreet ground wire somewhere on the unit instead ?



As far as I know (at least in Sunrise) the rear-left stand-off (and hence the thumb screw) is meant for grounding. You may notice, that in that corner the screw hole on PCB has a circular contact around it.

Search this thread - some people are using Faraday cages, some are using foil / copper wire in different ways. Personally, I am now trying to make a proper metal cage (upper case) at the moment. However that takes time. Just yesterday I learned that stainless steel cannot be painted effectively, while carbon steel should not be clear-coated raw!


----------



## KillerQ

tubebuyer2020 said:


> As far as I know (at least in Sunrise) the rear-left stand-off (and hence the thumb screw) is meant for grounding. You may notice, that in that corner the screw hole on PCB has a circular contact around it.
> 
> Search this thread - some people are using Faraday cages, some are using foil / copper wire in different ways. Personally, I am now trying to make a proper metal cage (upper case) at the moment. However that takes time. Just yesterday I learned that stainless steel cannot be painted effectively, while carbon steel should not be clear-coated raw!



You may be on to something. All the standoffs use thumbscrews on the Ember, it look at the upper left stand off hole here on page 6.http://www.garage1217.com/MANUALS/EMBER%20MANUALS/EMBER%202.1%20MANUAL%205-15-16.pdf

It’s definitely drawn different.


----------



## darkarn

KillerQ said:


> I just tried one of these ground eliminators just to test that possibility. The him did not go away. When I unplugged the rca cables so that nothing was connected, the hum actually got worse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You may want to contact Jeremy/frans to see how as this is definitely not a normal occurrance


----------



## KillerQ

darkarn said:


> You may want to contact Jeremy/frans to see how as this is definitely not a normal occurrance


 
I am in touch with them and have been going back and forth. I’m waiting to hear back after telling them what solved it for me. I’ll report back with what they say.


----------



## eris0xff (Feb 3, 2021)

Okay, I thought I'd post a follow-up from my 2015 Ember review.  I just purchased a new Ember 2.1 because my son is now the de-facto owner of the 1.0.  Since the 2.1 Ember can roll tubes that require higher heater power I thought I'd give them a shot.  I'm damn glad I did.  After trying my trusty Raytheon 12AX7 Hammond organ tubes (and confirming that they still rocked), I then rolled over to my custom conversion of the rare Sylvania 7963 subminiature radiation hardened, shock resistant guided missile tube and confirmed the cold war nuclear fire burning bright .  A very beautiful and high bandwidth tube and essentially an evolution of the 6DJ8/6922/7308 design if you didn't mind wiring the flying leads up.  Until a week ago it was by far my bang-for-buck leader (if you could find it, it was about at $14).

On a hunch I ordered a couple 6N6Ps, which I'm sure a number of you are familiar with. $12 each. This is a fantastic tube. It has incredible instrument separation, a punchy and resonant bass and surprisingly a lot of air. Not a dark tube like a Mullard, this thing just fires on all cylinders. Wide bandwidth, a crap ton of drive, fantastic imaging and really well behaved. Many hyper accurate tubes just are so analytical they can be tiring or so incredibly revealing that they remind you how many bad mixes you have in your old collection.

Not the case with the 6N6P. Somehow it makes mediocre mixes okay again. Then it makes audiophile mixes fantastic. Incredibly surprising. Some mixes I didn't expect to have the information in them. A good example: I usually run through my typical test sequence of Diana Krall Love Scenes, the Chesky Ultimate Demostration Disk, Pat Metheny Road To You (Live), Cadence / Frost Free, Curandero Aras. You know the drill. You have your favorites. It passed that test with flying f-ing colors. Beautiful and revealing as hell.

Then on a whim I played ELO A New World Order. Not because it's an audiophile recording. Hell this is a pop recording from 1976 recorded on tape. I just needed a bit of the old ELO.

Or maybe it is audiophile. Practically every tune here had vast, layered, euphonic soundscapes. I know what you're saying, "Yeah, dude. That's ELO". I know that. I've heard this album probably 30 times. But through the 6N6P it was beautiful, fat, rich, euphonic, holographic, accurate, expansive, spacious. Every recording layer, voice, instrument, violin, cello, piano, drum intermixed to create a pop symphony. Truly a musical drug. End game territory in 1970s pop land? I highly recommend this tube and amp. Specific tunes you should try "Turn To Stone", "Telephone Line", "Sweet Talkin Woman" and "Mr Blue Sky" from Out Of The Blue.

Okay I know all this purple prose is not very scientific or analytical. I'm a scientist and engineer and film maker so normally I don't go here but I was inspired and not on any drug other than the music. I later repeated this same experience with Steely Dan's Aja.

Be forewarned though, all of this requires a revealing pipeline (although the ELO tracks are just MP3s).  Here is my pipeline:

Late 2013 MacBook (still hanging in there)
Clementine player set to bit-perfect (a recent nightly build)
Shiit Modi 3 DAC
Project Ember 2.1 hybrid amp on medium output resistance with Soviet 6N6P
AKG K712 Pro

Note: I just received my Sennheiser HD600s back from repair. I tried the same tests again with the HD600 and while still nice and enjoyable, the K712 Pro is much more revealing of the 6N6P pyrotechnics. Thank you Austria (yes these are the originals) and thank you Garage1217.


----------



## KillerQ

Isn’t 6N6P the tube style that comes stock with the Ember 2 by default?



eris0xff said:


> Okay, I thought I'd post a follow-up from my 2015 Ember review.  I just purchased a new Ember 2.1 because my son is now the de-facto owner of the 1.0.  Since the 2.1 Ember can roll tubes that require higher heater power I thought I'd give them a shot.  I'm damn glad I did.  After trying my trusty Raytheon 12AX7 Hammond organ tubes (and confirming that they still rocked), I then rolled over to my custom conversion of the rare Sylvania 7963 subminiature radiation hardened, shock resistant guided missile tube and confirmed the cold war nuclear fire burning bright .  A very beautiful and high bandwidth tube and essentially an evolution of the 6DJ8/6922/7308 design if you didn't mind wiring the flying leads up.  Until a week ago it was by far my bang-for-buck leader (if you could find it, it was about at $14).
> 
> On a hunch I ordered a couple 6N6Ps, which I'm sure a number of you are familiar with. $12 each. This is a fantastic tube. It has incredible instrument separation, a punchy and resonant bass and surprisingly a lot of air. Not a dark tube like a Mullard, this thing just fires on all cylinders. Wide bandwidth, a crap ton of drive, fantastic imaging and really well behaved. Many hyper accurate tubes just are so analytical they can be tiring or so incredibly revealing that they remind you how many bad mixes you have in your old collection.
> 
> ...


----------



## timjclark

eris0xff said:


> Okay, I thought I'd post a follow-up from my 2015 Ember review.  I just purchased a new Ember 2.1 because my son is now the de-facto owner of the 1.0.  Since the 2.1 Ember can roll tubes that require higher heater power I thought I'd give them a shot.  I'm damn glad I did.  After trying my trusty Raytheon 12AX7 Hammond organ tubes (and confirming that they still rocked), I then rolled over to my custom conversion of the rare Sylvania 7963 subminiature radiation hardened, shock resistant guided missile tube and confirmed the cold war nuclear fire burning bright .  A very beautiful and high bandwidth tube and essentially an evolution of the 6DJ8/6922/7308 design if you didn't mind wiring the flying leads up.  Until a week ago it was by far my bang-for-buck leader (if you could find it, it was about at $14).
> 
> On a hunch I ordered a couple 6N6Ps, which I'm sure a number of you are familiar with. $12 each. This is a fantastic tube. It has incredible instrument separation, a punchy and resonant bass and surprisingly a lot of air. Not a dark tube like a Mullard, this thing just fires on all cylinders. Wide bandwidth, a crap ton of drive, fantastic imaging and really well behaved. Many hyper accurate tubes just are so analytical they can be tiring or so incredibly revealing that they remind you how many bad mixes you have in your old collection.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your great post!  You have me wanting to purchase a 6N6P to try on my Ember 2.1 too.  Do you have any eBay shopping advice for buying one of these tubes?  I see 172 auctions right now.  What sort of things should I be looking for?  Thank you very much!!


----------



## KillerQ

timjclark said:


> Thank you for your great post!  You have me wanting to purchase a 6N6P to try on my Ember 2.1 too.  Do you have any eBay shopping advice for buying one of these tubes?  I see 172 auctions right now.  What sort of things should I be looking for?  Thank you very much!!



I recommend buying from Jeff. Amazing support and fast shipping. He’s the only source for my tubes. Tell him Matt sent you!!

Lowtechelec's shop on Etsy https://etsy.me/2VFEjXB


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## timjclark

KillerQ said:


> I recommend buying from Jeff. Amazing support and fast shipping. He’s the only source for my tubes. Tell him Matt sent you!!
> 
> Lowtechelec's shop on Etsy https://etsy.me/2VFEjXB


Thank you for the recommendation!  Wow, he's got a ton of tubes and the prices seem to be reasonable.  It's good to know a guy...
Sadly, he doesn't have any of the 6N6P tubes at the moment.
Thanks!


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## tubebuyer2020

timjclark said:


> Thank you for your great post!  You have me wanting to purchase a 6N6P to try on my Ember 2.1 too.  Do you have any eBay shopping advice for buying one of these tubes?  I see 172 auctions right now.  What sort of things should I be looking for?  Thank you very much!!



General consensus across all tubes seems to be "older = better". Factories were Reflector, Nevz, Foton. Search a different amp thread for info on Fotons https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-valhalla-tube-rolling-thread.619910 . The differences will not be drastic I suspect.


KillerQ said:


> I recommend buying from Jeff. Amazing support and fast shipping. He’s the only source for my tubes. Tell him Matt sent you!!
> 
> Lowtechelec's shop on Etsy https://etsy.me/2VFEjXB


I can confirm as a customer! However he might not have the widest selection of specifically Soviet tubes like e.g. 6N6P.


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## KillerQ

It’s always best to message him as he is always getting new stuff. 

Good luck!!



timjclark said:


> Thank you for the recommendation!  Wow, he's got a ton of tubes and the prices seem to be reasonable.  It's good to know a guy...
> Sadly, he doesn't have any of the 6N6P tubes at the moment.
> Thanks!





tubebuyer2020 said:


> General consensus across all tubes seems to be "older = better". Factories were Reflector, Nevz, Foton. Search a different amp thread for info on Fotons https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-valhalla-tube-rolling-thread.619910 . The differences will not be drastic I suspect.
> 
> I can confirm as a customer! However he might not have the widest selection of specifically Soviet tubes like e.g. 6N6P.


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## Astral Abyss

Jeremy might still have some.  I bought mine directly from him.


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## KillerQ

I thought they were always easy to come across. Maybe I bought them all on accident. Haha.


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## VRacer-111 (Mar 12, 2021)

Wondering how a 6N6P would compare to a Reflector 6H23P-EB (which is my current favorite)... guess will order one and find out.


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## KillerQ

Get a Ken-Rad 6SN7!


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## DangerDan (Jan 14, 2022)

I might be late to the party but who is still having fun with the Ember? I assembled a 2.1 DIY Kit lately and now i look for some advice what to play around with, this is what i found in the mail today:

PSVANE 6SN7-Hifi

So far i have no complaints


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## dpump

Congratulations on building your Ember. Try the 6GU7. Not very expensive and easy to find.


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## KillerQ (Jan 16, 2022)

Before I list in the classifieds, I’m checking if there’s any interest in an Ember 2.1 with steel plates and a good deal of tubes. Located in the United States. Thanks!


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## Shane D

KillerQ said:


> Before I list in the classifieds, I’m checking if there’s any interest in an Ember 2.1 with steel plates and a good deal of tubes. Thanks!


Where are you located?


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## KillerQ

Shane D said:


> Where are you located?


US. I edited my posts


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## Amish

@KillerQ 
I am currently running a WTB ad for this amp. I already own a lot of tubes for this amp so I suppose it will depend on your price but I'm a serious buyer for sure. Hit me up with details via PM.


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## KillerQ

Anyone interested in a Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE before I list it for sale? US shipping. 

It paired PERFECTLY with my Ember 2.1!

https://premiumvacuumtubes.com/product/treasure-globe-6sn7-se-pair-gf-limited-special-edition/


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## amigastar

Hello,

i'm about to buy a 6N6P tube for my Project Ember. Does anyone know what sound characteristic this tube has?
And btw could someone recommend me an inexpensive Tube which is on the warmer side?

thanks


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## lostrockets (Jun 23, 2022)

amigastar said:


> Hello,
> 
> i'm about to buy a 6N6P tube for my Project Ember. Does anyone know what sound characteristic this tube has?
> And btw could someone recommend me an inexpensive Tube which is on the warmer side?
> ...


For me ive found the GE JG 5814s to be the warmest ive come across yet 

Second place might be RCA or GE 6sn7gtb 

Have you found anything since? 

If anyone has suggestions please chime in


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## amigastar

lostrockets said:


> For me ive found the GE JG 5814s to be the warmest ive come across yet
> 
> Second place might be RCA or GE 6sn7gtb
> 
> ...


Hey there,

i found the 6n6p tube
but i'm currently using my Schiit Magni 3+ as an amp.


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## tradyblix (Jun 26, 2022)

DangerDan said:


> I might be late to the party but who is still having fun with the Ember? I assembled a 2.1 DIY Kit lately and now i look for some advice what to play around with, this is what i found in the mail today:
> 
> PSVANE 6SN7-Hifi
> 
> So far i have no complaints



Just put it back in service today. Hadn't used it in years because I got more expensive equipment, and was focused on details in the past but care less about that today (although still high up on my list) but felt like checking out my new Arya stealths on a tube and It's pleasant to go back and check it out. They really sound good with Tube amps, even if ember is technically hybrid. Arya's def like more power, so it's nice to get 1.4W out of this at Ember's low resistance setting @ Aryas's 32 ohms, the other headamps I use are all less. Makes a difference with bass reproduction especially.

Tube amps are just fun in general because of tube rolling, but I really think they're great with analytical dacs and bright leaning cans in general. They just warm em up a ton


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## tradyblix

DangerDan said:


> I might be late to the party but who is still having fun with the Ember? I assembled a 2.1 DIY Kit lately and now i look for some advice what to play around with, this is what i found in the mail today:
> 
> PSVANE 6SN7-Hifi
> 
> So far i have no complaints







Oh yeah


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