# Desktop speakers for a T-Amp



## johnk

The one area of my life where I still have poor quality sound is my computer speakers. Time to sort it out.

 I have a T-Amp on the way, and a Fortissimo 4. Now I'm looking for shielded desktop speakers (as small as possible) to complete the picture (no DAC for the moment, before anyone suggests!).

 I don't want to spend a fortune (say £100/$180 tops). Quality does not have to be stunning, just acceptable for fairly quiet listening (the speakers will only be a few feet from my ears). Good clear mid and treble are more important than bass.

 There don't seem to be too many options. The JBL Control 1 look a possibility. Anyone tried pairing the T-Amp with the JBLs? They are available here (UK) for £60. Their sensitivity rating (89db) should be high enough for the T-Amp, I guess.

 I'd rather not go bigger than the JBLs, and I don't want to use a sub. Any suggestions welcome.

 PS: I should really add a big thank you to everyone here. Although I haven't been a poster here, I've been devouring the forums for a long time, and my entire portable rig (and the T-Amp/Fortissimo) are a direct result of the help I've received here. I haven't needed to post, search gave me everything I needed (but mosts posts about suitable small speakers for T-Amps mention speakers that are difficult/impossible to find in the UK. Hence this post).

 So - thank you all.


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## Onix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnk* 
_The one area of my life where I still have poor quality sound is my computer speakers. Time to sort it out.

 I have a T-Amp on the way, and a Fortissimo 4. Now I'm looking for shielded desktop speakers (as small as possible) to complete the picture (no DAC for the moment, before anyone suggests!).

 I don't want to spend a fortune (say £100/$180 tops). Quality does not have to be stunning, just acceptable for fairly quiet listening (the speakers will only be a few feet from my ears). Good clear mid and treble are more important than bass.

 There don't seem to be too many options. The JBL Control 1 look a possibility. Anyone tried pairing the T-Amp with the JBLs? They are available here (UK) for £60. Their sensitivity rating (89db) should be high enough for the T-Amp, I guess.

 I'd rather not go bigger than the JBLs, and I don't want to use a sub. Any suggestions welcome.

 PS: I should really add a big thank you to everyone here. Although I haven't been a poster here, I've been devouring the forums for a long time, and my entire portable rig (and the T-Amp/Fortissimo) are a direct result of the help I've received here. I haven't needed to post, search gave me everything I needed (but mosts posts about suitable small speakers for T-Amps mention speakers that are difficult/impossible to find in the UK. Hence this post).

 So - thank you all._

 

I am in the same position as johnk. I am planning on getting either a T-Amp or the "Son of T-Amp" and wouldo also like to know about possible speakers, or at least what specs to look for if I decide to buy some speakers and have a cabinet made for them. Thanks.

 Oh, and welcome Johnk


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## mrarroyo

I am kind of partial to Klipsch due to their high efficiency and sound. Here are some alternatives:

http://www.klipsch.com/product/produ...id=103&s=specs

http://www.klipsch.com/product/produ...id=713&s=specs

http://www.klipsch.com/product/produ...id=660&s=specs


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## johnk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* 
_I am kind of partial to Klipsch due to their high efficiency and sound. Here are some alternatives:

http://www.klipsch.com/product/produ...id=103&s=specs

http://www.klipsch.com/product/produ...id=713&s=specs

http://www.klipsch.com/product/produ...id=660&s=specs_

 

Many thanks for the suggestions. However, two of them are sub/sat setups, which I want to avoid. And the third set is 20 inches tall! Would look very silly on my desk.

 The JBLs, in contrast, are about half that height, while still theoretically being "full-range" (or as near as you can get at that size).

 Another option I've come across is AE's Aegis Compact. About £100, 88db/8ohms, 10 inches tall. Might be suitable...


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## lini

Thumbs up for the Control 1 (G/Universe and the (discontinued) powered Control 1 Media version, that is; can't comment on the X, as I haven't heard these yet - and the old C was unshielded, iirc) - for my taste, those work very well for computer use.

 Greetings from Hannover!

 Manfred / lini


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## rmx

I have to recommend a used set of Axiom M3ti's for your application. They're $300 new, but a set pops up on ebay or audiogon every once in a while for between 150 and 200 dollars. Incredible pairing with the t-amp... this is my budget computer setup right now.


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## johnk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rmx* 
_I have to recommend a used set of Axiom M3ti's for your application.....this is my budget computer setup right now._

 

They're quite large too (13.5" x 8.5" x 8.25"). You must have a very big desk!


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## sonick

I have a few JBL Control 1's, they're very decent little speakers, very well built and hefty.

 or you can try a pair of these:
http://www.thesourcecc.com/estore/Pr...roduct=4012000

 not sure if available in Radioshack in the states, but its just a newer version of the old 'Minimus 7' speakers. I have a pair i bought at a garage sale for like, $8, they sound very decent in a small space. not very bassy but fairly detailed. google up 'minimus 7' and do a bit of reading.


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## AdamWill

sonick: He's not in the UK. He's in England. There's no Radio Shack in England.


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## cotdt

you need speakers with an efficiency of at least 93 (SPL/1m) to play it loud, but since manufacturers typically inflate their efficiencies, look for speakers with efficiencies of at least 96. Don't expect any deep bass though, especially if they are desktop speakers.


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## uzziah

very funny; i was about to post THE EXACT SAME thread topic and this was top of the board. this is what i need as well; i'll go read it now


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## uzziah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *rmx* 
_I have to recommend a used set of Axiom M3ti's for your application. They're $300 new, but a set pops up on ebay or audiogon every once in a while for between 150 and 200 dollars. Incredible pairing with the t-amp... this is my budget computer setup right now._

 

i had these, and did like them; however i thought the t-amp may have had a little trouble driving them; what do you think? perhaps their efficiency measurement is a bit overrated. now i have polk r15's. they are not as good, it was a downgrade, but they seem to be driven a bit easier


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## uzziah

i would personally suggest just sticking to good old bookshelves if you can, rather than computer speakers. the paradigm atom and titan are my personal top choices right now. triangle makes some lovely efficient speakers, but they are out of mine, and maybe your price range.


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## johnk

The more I look into this the more surprised I am that there seem to be so few options. If you want a "real" speaker that's suitably small for desktop use (less than say 10" high), magnetically shielded and efficiency > 88db, the JBL Control 1 seems top of a very short shortlist (within my price range at least).

 I'm a bit worried to read that I should be looking for efficiency > 93 - that would give me a blank shortlist right now. Given that I won't be playing loud (it's not really wise or practical if the speakers are a few feet from your ears), then can I presume efficiency of about 88 is okay?


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## uzziah

yes, i forgot to comment on that posting........................now way you'll find speakers near your price range with 96 efficiency. the axiom m3ti's are stated at 92db or so, but i think they're overrated


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## MikeW

if you got an lcd monitor there's no need for shielding


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## uzziah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MikeW* 
_if you got an lcd monitor there's no need for shielding_

 

that's quite an interesting comment. care to explain? this is something i have yet to hear, but i can see how it could be the case. anyone else have a comment?

 of course, personally i'm not worried about shielding. one thing i do do is use honking home depot outdoor extension cable as speaker wire (orange and black). i would imagine the extremely thick sheeth would provide some shielding, but i could be mistaken


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## mrarroyo

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *johnk* 
_Many thanks for the suggestions. However, two of them are sub/sat setups, which I want to avoid. And the third set is 20 inches tall! Would look very silly on my desk.

 The JBLs, in contrast, are about half that height, while still theoretically being "full-range" (or as near as you can get at that size).

 Another option I've come across is AE's Aegis Compact. About £100, 88db/8ohms, 10 inches tall. Might be suitable..._

 

I was trying to give you a range, Perhaps you should look a the Klipsch RB-15 which are under 11.2" tall, here is a pic:







 Or the Klipsch RB-10 under 8.7" tall, here is a pic:


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## johnk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mrarroyo* 
_I was trying to give you a range, Perhaps you should look a the Klipsch RB-15 which are under 11.2" tall, here is a pic:

 Or the Klipsch RB-10 under 8.7" tall, here is a pic:_

 

Many thanks for posting again. The RB-10 looks absolutely ideal. High sensitivity, it's even shielded. I got quite excited, and then went looking for a UK dealer.....there are none, according to the Klipsch web site, and Google also draws a blank. I could probably find some US outlet that ships internationally, but like many people I like buying from dealers so that it's easier to take stuff back if necessary. The speakers do look good though...


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## Scrith

I'm not sure a T-amp can drive them, but I would be shocked if any of these recommendations sounds better than the Epos ELS-3 speakers ($299 at musicdirect.com, tons of reviews floating around the web). I have received quite a few "thank you that was a great recommendation" private messages from other posts where I've recommended these speakers.

 I used them as replacements for the front speakers in a Klipsch Ultra setup and the improvement was absolutely astonishing.


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## rmx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *uzziah* 
_i had these, and did like them; however i thought the t-amp may have had a little trouble driving them; what do you think? perhaps their efficiency measurement is a bit overrated. now i have polk r15's. they are not as good, it was a downgrade, but they seem to be driven a bit easier_

 


 Yes, the stock t-amp gets choked up driving them beyond halfway on the dial. I have a modded t-amp with most of the redwineaudio mods that seems to do just fine for the loudness level I leave them at. I suggest using the 41hz.com tripath amp5 for them though - they're adequately driven by the 2x60w at 8ohms put out by that amp. 

 re size: I have them wallmounted. works great with the axiom wallmounts.


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## rmx

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Scrith* 
_I'm not sure a T-amp can drive them, but I would be shocked if any of these recommendations sounds better than the Epos ELS-3 speakers ($299 at musicdirect.com, tons of reviews floating around the web). I have received quite a few "thank you that was a great recommendation" private messages from other posts where I've recommended these speakers.

 I used them as replacements for the front speakers in a Klipsch Ultra setup and the improvement was absolutely astonishing._

 

yeah, they're 87db efficient... little hard for the t-amp to drive.


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## johnk

Many thanks for all contributions to this thread. I ended up going with the first alternative I mentioned - the JBL Control 1, due to the combination of small size, decent sensitivity, good reputation and price.

 I'm very pleased, the set-up exceeds my expectations. The T-Amp drives the JBLs (89db) with ease, for my purposes anyway. I can even crank it up to fill my (small) study with music.

 As a system it's in an entirely different league to the computer speakers it replaced, and all for less than £100. I recommend the "T-Amp + bookshelf speakers" route to anyone looking for good quality PC sound.

 BTW for the benefit of UK members: the JBLs are available in Richer Sounds. They're £70 in store, but if you have the latest edition of What HiFi magazine (dated February), they're advertised for £50 - just bring the ad into the store. Bargain.


 JohnK


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## MikeW

CRT's are really the only major concern with big, unshielded magnets. Magnets have no effect on LCD displays. I wouldent recomend putting them near a bunch of floppies or any magnetic media, but who uses that stuff anymore? 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *uzziah* 
_that's quite an interesting comment. care to explain? this is something i have yet to hear, but i can see how it could be the case. anyone else have a comment?

 of course, personally i'm not worried about shielding. one thing i do do is use honking home depot outdoor extension cable as speaker wire (orange and black). i would imagine the extremely thick sheeth would provide some shielding, but i could be mistaken_


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## Onix

I've found a 15 inch woofer with a frequency response of 20Hz-3Khz, and 8 ohms impedance and a 94db eficiency. Would it work with the T-Amp?


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## uzziah

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Onix* 
_I've found a 15 inch woofer with a frequency response of 20Hz-3Khz, and 8 ohms impedance and a 94db eficiency. Would it work with the T-Amp?_

 

i'm not sure how you'd rig it as the t-amp puts out stereo Left and Right


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## Onix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *uzziah* 
_i'm not sure how you'd rig it as the t-amp puts out stereo Left and Right_

 

One of each channel, as sort of a full range substitute.


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## jrosenth

Paradigm Atoms - come sheilded as well. If you are after the Klipsch (whicha are sheilded), there is a huge difference in sound quality between the 10 and 15 for a relatively small price jump - just my 2 cents


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## cotdt

my speakers are so efficient that i can crank them to insane levels with my headphone amp =)


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## nabwong

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrosenth* 
_Paradigm Atoms - come sheilded as well. If you are after the Klipsch (whicha are sheilded), there is a huge difference in sound quality between the 10 and 15 for a relatively small price jump - just my 2 cents_

 

Atoms are generally regarded as the best bookshelves below $200. Thumbs up for them.


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## Onix

Anybody has an opinion about the Onix x-Is. They have an efficiency of 87db.

http://www.av123.com/products_produc...s&product=82.1


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## cotdt

For the Sonic Impact T-Amp (6W max 8 ohm, I measured it), you need at least 94dB efficient speakers to get decent volume. The problem with high efficiency speakers is that the high efficiency comes from light cone material (thin paper), which has weak bass and higher nonlinear distortion since they tend to flex rather than act as a piston. You're talking about a 15" inch high efficiency woofer that has comparable bass to a 7" inch hi-fi unit with 7mm xmax but much lower efficiency. I'd rather take the much smaller 7" inch hi-fi unit since it won't start beaming before even 1kHz like the 15" unit.

 Fortunately most MTM (or TMM) speakers are around 92dB efficient which is good enough for use with a T-amp. As for me, I built a 41hz Amp5 which is the 100W version of the T-amp and has much better bass output. If there's enough interest, I might offer prebuilt Amp5 amps that would cost around $200 and be better than any amp out there. Actually, all the best amps (Tripath, UcD, hi-end solid state and hi-end tube amps), well they all sound the same, so by best, I don't mean that it will actually beat the other amps. Let me know if there's interest in this.
 ]


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## Jbucla2005

I use Omega Speaker Systems Mini-Me's with my t-amp... they sound great.


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## Onix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* 
_For the Sonic Impact T-Amp (6W max 8 ohm, I measured it), you need at least 94dB efficient speakers to get decent volume. The problem with high efficiency speakers is that the high efficiency comes from light cone material (thin paper), which has weak bass and higher nonlinear distortion since they tend to flex rather than act as a piston. You're talking about a 15" inch high efficiency woofer that has comparable bass to a 7" inch hi-fi unit with 7mm xmax but much lower efficiency. I'd rather take the much smaller 7" inch hi-fi unit since it won't start beaming before even 1kHz like the 15" unit.

 Fortunately most MTM (or TMM) speakers are around 92dB efficient which is good enough for use with a T-amp. As for me, I built a 41hz Amp5 which is the 100W version of the T-amp and has much better bass output. If there's enough interest, I might offer prebuilt Amp5 amps that would cost around $200 and be better than any amp out there. Actually, all the best amps (Tripath, UcD, hi-end solid state and hi-end tube amps), well they all sound the same, so by best, I don't mean that it will actually beat the other amps. Let me know if there's interest in this.
 ]_

 

Sounds like a good idea, I've read some nice reviews about tge 41hz amps. Maybe you could have an Interest Check post in the for sale forum in order to see in there´s some interest. Now, that price tag would include a cabinet?


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## mgtitans17

Would the sonic impact t-amp be able to drive these speakers?

http://audioadvisor.com/store/produc...0Black,%20Pair

 I plan on getting a t-amp and those speakers for my computer if the amp can drive them.


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## abs@nilenet.com

I have this combo and don't recommend it. You can't turn the voume past 25% or so before the t-amp starts clipping. I did receive my Audiodigit class t-amp 100w kit and it sounds MUCH better. The difference in bass alone is like night and day.

 The speakers are awesome btw. They are a great value for the price.

 Happy listening 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 -Andy

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Onix* 
_Anybody has an opinion about the Onix x-Is. They have an efficiency of 87db.

http://www.av123.com/products_produc...s&product=82.1_


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## mgtitans17

abs@nilenet.com: Where did you get the Audiodigit class t-amp 100w kit? Do you have to put it together yourself because or does it come assembled?

 Does anybody else know about any other cheaper amps that would sound good with the athena bs-1.2 speakers?


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## abs@nilenet.com

You buy them from www.autocostruire.com, in Italy. They ship via Fedex and it takes about a week to get to the US. The kit is fully assembled and costs about $170.00 shipped to the US. All you need to do is install it in a case and provide a power supply or you can buy a toroidal from them. You can also buy a finished amp but it's pricey.

 Happy Listening 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Andy



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mgtitans17* 
_abs@nilenet.com: Where did you get the Audiodigit class t-amp 100w kit? Do you have to put it together yourself because or does it come assembled?_


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## mgtitans17

Ive heard the sonic impact t-amp sounds better with a regulated power supply with at least 3A of power, is this true?

 Would this power supply work with the t-amp?

http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?..._code=pyrps4kx


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## cotdt

With a power supply upgrade it can give you 6W of clean power, otherwise about 4W. Either way it's pretty crappy output that won't work well with modern speakers. I routinely give 400W to my speakers.


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## mgtitans17

Does anybody think that the athena bs1.2 speakers are to big for listening from 2 feet away because that is how far i am away from my speakers when im on the computer. Would it be easier to get a pair of JBL control 1 speakers instead because they might be easier for the t-amp to drive?

 How would i plug everything into the computer? Would the regulated power supply go from the wall plug to the amp, then connect the amp to the speakers, then connect the speakers into the computer? Will i have to buy calbes to do this or will the speakers, amp, and power supply come with everything i need?


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## Ooztuncer

Well, another vote for t-amp / paradigm titan combination in that price range. I run them last year for 5 months and sound was simply great. Actually, it was better than my current denon 785 receiver. T-amp is a great little monster. 

 I read "nuance" differences between mid-level speakers when you use t-amp are less important than room acoustics. I am writing this not according to my experience unfortunately - it's just what I read. 

 Cheers


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## mgtitans17

This is a little bit off topic but how would i control the volume level of the speakers if i used a pair of bookshelf speakers with the t-amp? Does the t-amp have a volume control knob on it? 

 Im also considering the JBL control 1 because they are cheaper than the athenas, take up less room and i would be putting them on a small desck, and probably easier for the t-amp to drive.


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## classicalguy

Yes. T-amp has a volume control built in. It's quiet too.


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## cotdt

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Onix* 
_Sounds like a good idea, I've read some nice reviews about tge 41hz amps. Maybe you could have an Interest Check post in the for sale forum in order to see in there´s some interest. Now, that price tag would include a cabinet?_

 

I took your advice and posted this:
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=177726

 Yeah it would include a cabinet/box and an overkill power supply, although to cut down on the price it won't be the best-looking one. It will either be aluminum or wood with aluminum shielding. I'm doing this mainly for the community and not looking for any profits. Most commercial vendors would sell the power supply alone for more than the entire amp here.


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## jrosenth

Another Option: Get a pair of Fostex FE103/83/83/127 full range drivers from madisound and make the reccomended enclosures or have them made for you (Steinaudio.com - no affiliation) - total price $60-80 - very small - sheilded - and the yummiest full range magic - oh yes, easialy efficient enough for a T-amp as well (can you say $100 system)


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## mgtitans17

Im guessing i would have to send a link to steinaudio.com that shows them the Fostex FE103 full range drivers and then they will build a case for them? Would i have to put the drivers in the case or would they do that too? Would those drivers sound a lot better than athena as-b1.2's or a jbl control 1?


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## jrosenth

Stein makes cabinets or flats based on any plan - easy entrance to DIY for people without tools, time, etc. 

 Madisound lists the fostex drivers with detailed plans for reccomended enclosures - easy entrance to DIY since no crossover is required. 

 These little full rangers sound different than convential speakers - they trade of bass and high treble and SPL for intimacy and coherency - listen to a tivoli model 1 to get a taste on a small scale or try and listen to some Omegas at a dealer.


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## cotdt

I've actually built one of those Fostex fullrangers in a bass reflex enclosure. I used one of the larger drivers, and yes they are efficient enough for T-amps and yes their midrange is much, much better than the Athenas. However, the bass isn't "authoritative" and treble isn't very extended, and max output isn't much, compared to modern speakers using high excursion woofers and a dedicated tweeter. Hi-end modern speakers are better all around except for efficiency, that's why we have kilowatt amps for cheap these days.


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## jrosenth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* 
_Hi-end modern speakers are better all around except for efficiency, that's why we have kilowatt amps for cheap these days._

 

Where to even begin with this?

 1- That is opinion not fact. 

 When making such a blanket statement it is wise to qualify (with an IMHO - heck, even an IMO) or better yet, unless one has serious listening experience across broad segments, to avoid them.

 2- Cheap modern kilowatt amps do not necessarily sound better than older low-watt amps.

 Modern vs not-modern has little to do with sound quality as does kilowatt vs. other than kilowatt. Without even getting into tube vs. solid state, those modern kilowatt amps may not have the "kilowatts" that they claim and "watts" may not be the sole criteria for power.

 Old solid states can sound very good and run modern speakers. Indeed there were old kilowatt amps that sounded poor and we "still" have low watt amps tube, solid state, and digital that sound very good even inexpensive ones, not only famous T-amps or others such as those in kits or complete from www.audiodigit.com (no affiliation). 

 Again, each of these speaker types sounds different and has different attributes, strengths and weaknesses - this includes electrostats. Fullrangers can have point-source accuracy, crossover-less coherency, intimacy and detail and soundstage - they can lack bass, upper treble and spl (as I stated above) - of course many keep their benefits and add a super tweeter, low/sub woofer etc. There is also some nuance here as different drivers perform differently (can't judge a class with one example) - some full range drivers will do up to 30,000 Hz and give very solid bass in the right enclosures - use some small ones in a bipole config to smooth the frequency specs and increase spl and bass - also increase effeciency (no correction circuit) and drop the load to 4 ohms for the T-amp. 

 Full rangers are not for everyone but are cheap and easy to DIY - one driver to buy, no crossovers. Electrostats likewise have strengths and weakeness as do conventional systems.

 For headphone-only people that statement is similar to the Stax, Grado, Senn debate with someone claiming: "I once heard one older Grado and so modern Senns. are better than them in every way except effeciency, which is why we have modern high wattage headphone amps." Um, okay.

 Finally, you've made blanket reccomendations about one particular new brand of conventional speakers using dayton drivers (available via parts express) and only found on a website and then ran a thread in the for sale forum stating that you had access to that manufacturer and would sell those speakers here for half off their $1000 MSRP (along with another product offering in another forum). What is the nature of your relationship with them and might one venture that it might influence the statement?

 Edit: Looks like the moderators already deleted it as well as the other one. They are on top of their game, are they not?


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## cotdt

I didn't support my "opinions" because it would take too much time and I didn't think anyone would be interested. Anyway, the nonlinear distortion figures for high efficiency drivers have been compared to hi-fi drivers of the same size, and the best hi-fi drivers always beat the best high efficiency drivers. High efficiency drivers basically need to be much bigger to match hi-fi drivers. Take a look at these graphs:
http://zaphaudio.com/6.5test/hd.html

 As you can see, the Fostex drivers are adding a music of their own, this is what I consider contamination. They also have less than 1mm of xmax and terrible bass performance, a lot of distortion. The other drivers have much lower nonlinear distortion and greater bass output.

 Here's what the Adire Audio guy Dan Wiggins said on the diyaudio.com forum:

 "Unfortunately, high efficiency and high Q are quite incompatible; it's the way drivers are built that force this relationship.

 For a high Q design, we need to have a relatively weak motor; the weaker the motor (the lower the BL) for a given mass, we will raise the Q of the speaker (I'm assuming we don't want to raise the Q via a stiff suspension, since that will raise the Fs of the driver).

 Now, how do we get efficiency out of a speaker? Low moving mass and high BL. That's it. Cut the Mms, or raise the BL, and you'll increase efficiency.

 Combine those two paragraphs; to do a high Q design, we know we need a low BL. And to get high efficiency, we know we must lower the Mms (since we have to keep the BL low for the higher Q).

 However, there's a limit in how low we can go in Mms! A low Mms for a 6.5" woofer would be 8 grams; that would be REALLY light! That's kind of the bottom for what you can realistically get with a 6.5" driver.

 Now that we've pegged the Mms as low as we can, we know we can raise the BL as little as possible to get us the required efficiency. Problem is, to get back to the 95-96 dB SPL range, we'll need to raise the BL into the 9 N/A range. This would give us the required efficiency; however, it will also give us a Q around 0.25...

 There is always stiffening the suspension; that will raise the Qts quite a bit! However, it will also raise the Fs, prohibitively so. Cranking the Q up via stiffer suspension would push your Fs into the 100+ Hz range, meaning bye bye lower extension...

 So, in essence, looking for a high efficiency, high Q driver is kind of like looking for a 12 passenger van that out-hustles a Carrera 4 around the track. You can get one or the other, but not both.

 This should also indicate why the average high efficiency driver is always low Q; you simply can't run the Mms down to where you'd need it to be to get the solution, unless we can come up with negative-mass materials."

 In short, both the laws of physics and distortion measurements show that efficiency and bass is not compatible when the driver size is fixed. My own experience agrees with this, and as a fan of popular bass-heavy music, I need a lot of clean bass output. The fullrangers just don't cut it for me.

 And yes, the Mods did seem to delete my posts in the For Sale section. It's a shame, there seemed to have been a lot of community interests in those, and I wasn't looking to earn a profit. It reminds me of politics, you're a politican and trying to make a difference, improve things, yet everyone looks at you with suspicion.

 Cheers

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrosenth* 
_Where to even begin with this?

 1- That is opinion not fact. 

 When making such a blanket statement it is wise to qualify (with an IMHO - heck, even an IMO) or better yet, unless one has serious listening experience across broad segments, to avoid them.

 2- Cheap modern kilowatt amps do not necessarily sound better than older low-watt amps.

 Modern vs not-modern has little to do with sound quality as does kilowatt vs. other than kilowatt. Without even getting into tube vs. solid state, those modern kilowatt amps may not have the "kilowatts" that they claim and "watts" may not be the sole criteria for power.

 Old solid states can sound very good and run modern speakers. Indeed there were old kilowatt amps that sounded poor and we "still" have low watt amps tube, solid state, and digital that sound very good even inexpensive ones, not only famous T-amps or others such as those in kits or complete from www.audiodigit.com (no affiliation). 

 Again, each of these speaker types sounds different and has different attributes, strengths and weaknesses - this includes electrostats. Fullrangers can have point source accuracy, cross-overless coherency, intimacy and detail and soundstage - they lack bass, upper treble and spl (as I stated above) - of course many keep their benefits and add a super tweeter, low/sub woofer etc. There is also some nuance here as different drivers perform differently (can't judge a class with one example) - some full range drivers will do up to 30,000 Hz and give very solid bass in the right enclosures - use some small ones in a bipole config to smooth the frequency specs and increase spl and bass - also increase effeciency (no correction circuit) and drop the load to 4 ohms for the T-amp. 

 Full rangers are not for everyone but are cheap and easy to DIY - one driver to buy, no crossovers. Electrostats likewise have strengths and weakeness as do conventional systems.

 For headphone-only people that statement is similar to the Stax, Grado, Senn debate with someone claiming: "I once heard one older Grado and so modern Senns. are better than them in every way except effeciency, which is why we have modern high wattage headphone amps." Um, okay.

 Finally, you've made blanket reccomendations about one particular new brand of conventional speakers using dayton drivers (available via parts express) and only found on a website and then ran a thread in the for sale forum stating that you had access to that manufacturer and would sell those speakers here for half off their $1000 MSRP (along with another product offering in another forum). What is the nature of your relationship with them and might one venture that it might influence the statement?

 Edit: Looks like the moderators already deleted it as well as the other one. They are on top of their game, are they not?_


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## jrosenth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* 
_
 The fullrangers just don't cut it for me.
_

 

Fair enough - design goals and preference - much better statement.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cotdt* 
_
 It reminds me of politics, you're a politican and trying to make a difference, improve things, yet everyone looks at you with suspicion.
_


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## Onix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrosenth* 
_Another Option: Get a pair of Fostex FE103/83/83/127 full range drivers from madisound and make the reccomended enclosures or have them made for you (Steinaudio.com - no affiliation) - total price $60-80 - very small - sheilded - and the yummiest full range magic - oh yes, easialy efficient enough for a T-amp as well (can you say $100 system)_

 


 Okay, trying to get this thread out of the mud, I have to say that I am looking for the FE126e full range, on a bass reflex enclosure for the office and a horn enclosure for home use. A guy from this forums uses that driver for his speakers and recomends it. Any opinions?


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## jrosenth

Help towards moving this thread out of the mud - summary:

 If you like midrange and intimacy and want an ultra cheap system - the fostex in a bass reflex with a t-amp is nifty for computer use.

 The 87FE is used quite a bit for such applications (I believe this is the driver that Terry Cain uses in his Noogis) - it has extended highs, a great sound stage and is sheilded - small form in a bass reflex - if more bass is needed it works well with a sub. Respectable in the reccomended horn enclosure as well (see link for both). Check out madisound - go half way down this page for the FE series and click on a driver for a PDF of the rec. enclosures.

 For more bass the 126/127 is the better choice but has more limited ultra highs. The 126 is the choice for horns - the 127 for bass reflex - the reccomnded enclosure reflect that as well.

 DIYaudio.com as a community put together a thread offering a reference design for people just getting interested - really easy - can uses shelving material etc.. They opted for the 127 driver used as a bipole - better bass, spl, efficiency no need for correction circuit etc - four drivers for $150 via madisound - can use it in 4 ohms with a t-amp - comparable to the Omega bipole for $1500. Also available as monopole - both plans here (halfway down page).

 Disclaimers: other drivers such as the tangband are often used. Also, the drivers themselves can be easily modded (think Omega here). The small bass reflex are really inexpensive and with a descent exterior (some people opt for Baltic birch plywood over mdf and keep them unfinished) a cheap investment and easy to sell if you you end up not liking them. They are definately not for everyone - the best way to get a taste is to listen to a tivoli model 1 or 2 and imagine it but more.


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## Onix

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jrosenth* 
_Help towards moving this thread out of the mud - summary:

 If you like midrange and intimacy and want an ultra cheap system - the fostex in a bass reflex with a t-amp is nifty for computer use.

 The 87FE is used quite a bit for such applications (I believe this is the driver that Terry Cain uses in his Noogis) - it has extended highs, a great sound stage and is sheilded - small form in a bass reflex - if more bass is needed it works well with a sub. Respectable in the reccomended horn enclosure as well (see link for both). Check out madisound - go half way down this page for the FE series and click on a driver for a PDF of the rec. enclosures.

 For more bass the 126/127 is the better choice but has more limited ultra highs. The 126 is the choice for horns - the 127 for bass reflex - the reccomnded enclosure reflect that as well.

 DIYaudio.com as a community put together a thread offering a reference design for people just getting interested - really easy - can uses shelving material etc.. They opted for the 127 driver used as a bipole - better bass, spl, efficiency no need for correction circuit etc - four drivers for $150 via madisound - can use it in 4 ohms with a t-amp - comparable to the Omega bipole for $1500. Also available as monopole - both plans here (halfway down page).

 Disclaimers: other drivers such as the tangband are often used. Also, the drivers themselves can be easily modded (think Omega here). The small bass reflex are really inexpensive and with a descent exterior (some people opt for Baltic birch plywood over mdf and keep them unfinished) a cheap investment and easy to sell if you you end up not liking them. They are definately not for everyone - the best way to get a taste is to listen to a tivoli model 1 or 2 and imagine it but more._

 

Okay, I'll check that DIYaudio thread. Thanks.


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## mgtitans17

Ive decided im either going to get these speakers:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...lance&n=172282

 or these:

http://audioadvisor.com/store/produc...0Black,%20Pair

 Would the t-amp be able to drive the jbl speakers easier than the athenas? Which set of speakers would sound the best with the t-amp? I only have a desk that is around 3.5 feet long and about 1.5 feet wide so space is an issue because my computer screen also has to go on my desk with a keyboard too. I really just wank a decent sounding system that is an upgrade form basic computer speakers that will be good for close listening around 2 feet away.


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## classicalguy

I think the T-Amp would power either of these speakers. JBLs are 6 olm, so that would give the Tamp some volume boost. With a good 3 amp power supply, the T-Amp should be a good match for these speakers.

 The JBL's are very intriguing for a desktop system - very small and VERY cheap ($75 shipped from J&R). The Athenas are twice the price (on sale for $120 PLUS shipping - so probably $150). Athenas are also quite a bit bigger. Yes, I suspect the Athenas are more accurate. MDF v. plastic cabinets and probably better design. But, I'm seriously thinking of the JBLs and a T-Amp for work because of the small size and low price. I've never actually heard either of these speakers - I'd be very interested in comments from people who have.


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## mgtitans17

Would this power supply be good enough to use with the t-amp?

http://www.bgmicro.com/prodinfo.asp?...WR1206&stype=3


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## classicalguy

Yes, mgtitans. I have 3 of of those power supplies, and they work great with t-amps. One of the tips I got here. You also need the two prong power cord, which BG Micro carries.


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## mgtitans17

classicalguy, can you give me a link to the two prong power cord because i did a search on there site and i couldnt find it? Does the power cord allow me to connect the t-amp to the power supply?


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## classicalguy

The power cord lets you plug the power supply into the wall. The part number is listed in the description:

 "Figure 8 Cheater cord. PWR1061....... Buy 3 power supplies and we throw in the cheater cords."


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## mgtitans17

Im probably going to be getting a pair of jbl control 1x's speakers and the sonic impact t-amp and im just wondering if anybody has ever used this combination and if you did how did it sound? If anybody has ever used these speakers how did you like them?


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## mgtitans17

Sorry for the double post but does the t-amp and speakers come with wire? If not wut is a good fairly cheap wire to use? Wut size wire is it? Also, do stores like radio shack carry the right type of wire i would need?


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## classicalguy

The T-Amp comes with a really cheap mini-to-mini RCA jack for connecting to an source. It does not come with speaker wire. I think 14 gauge speaker wire is best for the T-Amp. Anything thicker is hard to get into the T-Amp's clips.


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## mgtitans17

Would radioshack have the 14guage wire and a higher quality mini to mini RCA connector?


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## classicalguy

Yes, I think Radio Shack would likely have a better quality mini-cable and some 14 gauge speaker wire that would work fine. I'd be interested in how those JBL's sound. I've never heard the speaker, but it gets pretty good reviews and is very inexpensive. Should be a nice little system.


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## mgtitans17

Would a higher quality mini to mini RCA adapter affect the sound quality that much?

 I hope to post a mini review of the jbl speakers when i get them because there isnt a lot of information about them on this website.


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## Onix

Some information from TNT-Audio:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/t-speakers_e.html


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## classicalguy

Asking whether a higher quality cable would make a significant difference in sound quality is like asking people of different religions whether their particular belief is true. There is one camp that believes that a good electrical connection is the only thing that matters, and that there can be no audible difference between cables that make a proper electrical circuit. There are others who believe that cable design makes a huge difference in sound. The placebo effect plays a major role in the debate. My personal belief is that we're talking about a modest budget system here, and that the benefit of buying esoteric cables would probably not be justified. A decent quality mini RCA cable and decent quality speaker wire will probably be sufficient for your purposes.


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## mgtitans17

Is the mini to mini rca connector that comes with the t-amp just complete gargabe or is it on par with a decent quality mini rca connector?


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## classicalguy

The mini-to-mini cable that comes with the t-amp is very short and very thin. I think it's complete garbage, but you can try it for yourself and decide whether to get a better cable.


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