# Gustard U12 USB Interface 8 Core XMOS chip



## rb2013

After rolling through a bunch of USB interfaces including 3 different John Kenny's, M2Tech Highface and Evo, Audiophilleo 2, Musiland 02 and Musiland USB 3.0 USD. I settled on the Musiland USB 3.0 as the best sounding. Made better with a Aqvox linear power supply. I've been running this for over a year and really happy. But heard about this unit and just ordered one, wanted to see if anyone has tried it.

Looks promising:

- Native 32 bit 384Khz 8 X-core XMOS chip. Multi-thread. USB class 2.0 Async.

- Seperate 0.1ppm TCXO clocks, Temperature Controlled High Precision Active Crystal. One for each clocking ratio.

- Independent Linear Power Supply. Sealing Torodial Transformer, Multiple Sets of Multi-Level Regulation

- Four outputs: Coaxial (RCA), Optical Fiber, AES/EBU, IIS (HDMI port).

- DSD support to 128. PCM to 384K.

- Latest XMOS Thesycon ASIO v1.6.1 drivers, strong driver support for future Windows versions.

http://www.kidultdiagnostic.com/blogs/new-release-gustard-u12-native-32bit-384khz-xmos-0-1ppm-dac/

Pics to follow.


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## Nhubley

I would love to hear this!


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## rb2013

nhubley said:


> I would love to hear this!


They're ridiculously cheap, I paid $159 shipped, on ebay!


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## Nhubley

rb2013 said:


> They're ridiculously cheap, I paid $159 shipped, on ebay!


 
 get out no way!


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## rb2013

What I like about it uses the XMOS Thesycon ASIO 1.6.1 drivers for Windows. These are same Ayre and Wavelength use.

I hope it works well with JPlay!


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## Chodi

I have the U10 I bought before the U12 came out. It dumped the Hiface 2 I had been using. I am waiting to see if there is any reason for me to change my U10 for a U12. The only obvious change is the display which I can do without. I have been very pleased with the performance of the U10 and the price was laughingly low.


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## rb2013

chodi said:


> I have the U10 I bought before the U12 came out. It dumped the Hiface 2 I had been using. I am waiting to see if there is any reason for me to change my U10 for a U12. The only obvious change is the display which I can do without. I have been very pleased with the performance of the U10 and the price was laughingly low.


Yes, they look very similar. Two of the large blue caps in the U12, it looks like only one in the U1O. I can't tell about some of the chips, XMOS and clocks look the same.

Did you have any issues with installing the driver? Are you running Windows 7?


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## Chodi

rb2013 said:


> Yes, they look very similar. Two of the large blue caps in the U12, it looks like only one in the U1O. I can't tell about some of the chips, XMOS and clocks look the same.
> 
> Did you have any issues with installing the driver? Are you running Windows 7?


 
 Yes, I am running windows 7. I modified the latest Thesycon drivers myself to work with the Gustard. That way I could have the latest full version of the Thesycon driver. The driver supplied with the Gustard is a generic version of the Thesycon with limited features. If you need the full version I modified just pm me. I should point out that my modified drivers I made are for the U10 as I don't have the U12.
  
 I contacted one of the Ebay sellers and they claim that the xmos chip in the U12 is a newer version from the U10. I have no idea if that is honest information (or if that matters). Since both the U10 and the U12 clock at the same rates I'm not sure that the seller was not just trying to make a sale. If I can confirm that information is true I may go for the new version as the cost is very minimal and I have been very impressed with the U10.


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## nykobing

Any idea if this works with linux?


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## rb2013

chodi said:


> Yes, I am running windows 7. I modified the latest Thesycon drivers myself to work with the Gustard. That way I could have the latest full version of the Thesycon driver. The driver supplied with the Gustard is a generic version of the Thesycon with limited features. If you need the full version I modified just pm me. I should point out that my modified drivers I made are for the U10 as I don't have the U12.
> 
> I contacted one of the Ebay sellers and they claim that the xmos chip in the U12 is a newer version from the U10. I have no idea if that is honest information (or if that matters). Since both the U10 and the U12 clock at the same rates I'm not sure that the seller was not just trying to make a sale. If I can confirm that information is true I may go for the new version as the cost is very minimal and I have been very impressed with the U10.


When I get mine, I'll open it up and take some closeups of the chips to post. I'll PM you for the driver, couldn't hurt. Thanks!

I'm sure the XMOS is constantly being updated. One thing about the Musiland, it has an excellent monitor window with a digital balance control that comes in real handy. Does the Theyson/Gustard offer this? Do you use Jplay?


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## Chodi

rb2013 said:


> When I get mine, I'll open it up and take some closeups of the chips to post. I'll PM you for the driver, couldn't hurt. Thanks!
> 
> I'm sure the XMOS is constantly being updated. One thing about the Musiland, it has an excellent monitor window with a digital balance control that comes in real handy. Does the Theyson/Gustard offer this? Do you use Jplay?


 
 I don't know anything about Jplay I use Jriver and Foobar but I can tell you the Gustard does not have any balance control. I would expect that to be an unusual feature for a usb converter.


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## rb2013

chodi said:


> I don't know anything about Jplay I use Jriver and Foobar but I can tell you the Gustard does not have any balance control. I would expect that to be an unusual feature for a usb converter.


It's really good, with control over the various outputs, vol and bal. 
Here is a screen shot of the Musiland control panel.


I was hoping the Gustard offered something similar


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## rb2013

http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/category/usb-audio/

Here is a great site with lot's of useful info on the XMOS 32bit USB chipset and Musiland 3.0 USD (pc inteface) and Musiland 3.0 US (DAC and interface)


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## Chodi

rb2013 said:


> It's really good, with control over the various outputs, vol and bal.
> Here is a screen shot of the Musiland control panel.
> 
> 
> I was hoping the Gustard offered something similar


 
 Oh, you were talking about a software control. Yes in the TUSB Audio Control Panel there is a balance control. I thought you meant some type of hardware control. It is a simple left/right channel gain control. Nothing as elaborate as the one in your picture. Frankly, when I feel the need for a software digital volume control I just use Jriver internal. It works fine for me as long as you stay under 10db change I find the results to do no damage.


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## rb2013

chodi said:


> Oh, you were talking about a software control. Yes in the TUSB Audio Control Panel there is a balance control. I thought you meant some type of hardware control. It is a simple left/right channel gain control. Nothing as elaborate as the one in your picture. Frankly, when I feel the need for a software digital volume control I just use Jriver internal. It works fine for me as long as you stay under 10db change I find the results to do no damage.


Yes, foobar has similar, but I find the 1dB fine control of the Musiland really useful. Good to hear about the TUSB control.


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## Chodi

rb2013 said:


> Yes, foobar has similar, but I find the 1dB fine control of the Musiland really useful. Good to hear about the TUSB control.


 
 Actually Jriver allows you to change volume in .5db steps. It is all done in the digital domain with 64bit processing so changes under 10db do no damage to the sound quality. I believe foobar is processing in 32bit but to be honest I cannot hear the difference.


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## Jon L

I would be interested in how this sounds.  
 I do believe USB-spdif converters benefit hugely from a good battery power supply, even over linear PS unless near state of art, so I would have preferred a DC input jack on the Gustard U12 myself.


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## rb2013

http://www.acopian.com/mobile/pages.aspx?page=wide-l-goldbox-infinity-m






jon l said:


> I would be interested in how this sounds.
> I do believe USB-spdif converters benefit hugely from a good battery power supply, even over linear PS unless near state of art, so I would have preferred a DC input jack on the Gustard U12 myself.


I did a lot of experimentation with my M2Tech Evo and Audiopilleo 2, with battery ps's. They were smooth, but seemed to rob the dynamics. Wound up building my own ultra quiet linear ps, based on the Acopian 'Gold Box' infinity. Really sounded much better. More detail and way more dynamic. But the Musiland 3.0 USB USD sounded better still with the Aquvox linear ps.

For me the battery route didn't do it. I found this same issue with the battery powered phono preamp I once had. Polite but boring. YMMV.

It looks like Gustard went the extra mile in the power supply design.


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## rb2013

chodi said:


> Actually Jriver allows you to change volume in .5db steps. It is all done in the digital domain with 64bit processing so changes under 10db do no damage to the sound quality. I believe foobar is processing in 32bit but to be honest I cannot hear the difference.


Well, I like foobar alot. Did try Jriver, nice to. I'm a big fan of the SoX upsampler for Foobar. I tried many and it sounded smoothest (including the Crystal Upsampler in Wavelab 6.0).

The balance control is not a big deal, just need -1dB in the right channel in my main listening room do to room issues. With my hd800 hp system, not an issue. I agree on the SQ degradation from a small amount, wouldn't use the digital as a vol controler.


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## thuantran

I got this one http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/54-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wauto-power-switch.html , it's quite good compared to the internal CA DacMagic Plus XMOS usb and the Peachtree X1, also another XMOS. Unfortunately it's now out of stock and they raised the price. When I got it, it's just a little over 126$ shipping included.
  
 The Gustard looks to be overbuilt using the same chip generation as this diyinhk converter. If you check the specsheet of the XMOS usb chip https://www.xmos.com/download/public/XS1-U8A-64-FB96-Datasheet%281.7%29.pdf you will know how to read the chip part marking (19.1) to know which lot your chip belong to.


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## Jon L

rb2013 said:


> http://www.acopian.com/mobile/pages.aspx?page=wide-l-goldbox-infinity-m
> I did a lot of experimentation with my M2Tech Evo and Audiopilleo 2, with battery ps's. They were smooth, but seemed to rob the dynamics. Wound up building my own ultra quiet linear ps, based on the Acopian 'Gold Box' infinity. Really sounded much better. More detail and way more dynamic. But the Musiland 3.0 USB USD sounded better still with the Aquvox linear ps.
> 
> For me the battery route didn't do it. I found this same issue with the battery powered phono preamp I once had. Polite but boring. YMMV.
> ...


 
  
 You modified the Acopian or built one from scratch?  It's unbelievable how much "audiophile" companies charge for their linear power supplies; same for audiophile battery power supplies, but at least you can always buy your own batteries easily and rig one up.  
  
 What kind of batteries have you tried, any Li-ion or LiFePO4 ?  I agree in general linear PS's tends to have bigger macrodynamics, especially compared to SLA batteries, but there is something about a good battery powering low-power components, especially digital, that appeals to me.  There is a calmness within calmness, seeming like time slows down, with vocal and instrumental timbre that sound more authentic to me.


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## rb2013

jon l said:


> You modified the Acopian or built one from scratch?  It's unbelievable how much "audiophile" companies charge for their linear power supplies; same for audiophile battery power supplies, but at least you can always buy your own batteries easily and rig one up.
> 
> What kind of batteries have you tried, any Li-ion or LiFePO4 ?  I agree in general linear PS's tends to have bigger macrodynamics, especially compared to SLA batteries, but there is something about a good battery powering low-power components, especially digital, that appeals to me.  There is a calmness within calmness, seeming like time slows down, with vocal and instrumental timbre that sound more authentic to me.


 I modded the Acopian, just found the right voltage version and made the right connectors for the Evo. 

I've tried both Li battery versions, they're cheap enough to build these days. One with an auto recharge function. Even tried a Lead acid version based on a UBS box.

I agree with quietness issue, it was most apparent in the phono preamp I had. But with really good power filtering, and getting rid of those horrid switching power supplies, you can get close. On USB, get the power supply away from the PC. So much ps noise generated in that envirnoment, those fan motors are nasty. I use SoTm internal PC filters, on the HDs and fans. With the linear ps you can maintain the excellent dynamics.


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## rb2013

thuantran said:


> I got this one http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/54-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wauto-power-switch.html , it's quite good compared to the internal CA DacMagic Plus XMOS usb and the Peachtree X1, also another XMOS. Unfortunately it's now out of stock and they raised the price. When I got it, it's just a little over 126$ shipping included.
> 
> The Gustard looks to be overbuilt using the same chip generation as this diyinhk converter. If you check the specsheet of the XMOS usb chip https://www.xmos.com/download/public/XS1-U8A-64-FB96-Datasheet%281.7%29.pdf you will know how to read the chip part marking (19.1) to know which lot your chip belong to.


I love overbuilt! 
Here is a great blog, that I participate in (wrote the reader review of the different Musilands), that goes into detail on DIYINHK USB interface, and XMOS chip implementation in general. I post there under Sam5050. If you go to the end of the comments section, I asked about the somewhat questionable clocking method employed with that XMOS USB device.

Good info on the XMOS part marking codes thanks!

Http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2014/01/24/diyinhk-isolated-xmos-usb-interface/

Edit Typo


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## merlin2049er

Hey, I just picked one up on ebay.


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## rb2013

merlin2049er said:


> Hey, I just picked one up on ebay.


Nice! Post up your impressions when it arrives. Mine should be here in a couple more weeks.


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## merlin2049er

Which Dac are you using with it?


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## rb2013

merlin2049er said:


> Which Dac are you using with it?


I have two. One a APL tubed 3910 and the other a heavily modded Lite DAC 60.


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## Arutemisha

Hi, i bought this product too. But i'm desperate searching for driver for this device. The seller didn't give me the driver. How can i install Gustard U12 on my Windows 7 64 bit ? My email Arutemishareborn@gmail.com.


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## ppataki

I have also ordered a Gustard U12, arrived 3 days ago from China
 It sounds brilliant, bass became somewhat more elemental while the mids and highs are now more detailed
 I can only recommend it!
  
 notes: I have replaced a CM6631A based USB powered Chinese board (which also sounded way better than the on-board SPDIF out of my PC) with the Gustard
 IMHO both the CM6631A and the Gustard U12 sound much better than the Nuforce U192S (I had that one before the CM6631A)


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## Arutemisha

Wow. Awesome.
 But i can't prove it now because i don't have driver to install Gustard U12 ( stupid seller ). Maybe someone can help me with the driver. Ironic isn't it. Have a good device but can't use it. lol.


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## ppataki

arutemisha said:


> Wow. Awesome.
> But i can't prove it now because i don't have driver to install Gustard U12 ( stupid seller ). Maybe someone can help me with the driver. Ironic isn't it. Have a good device but can't use it. lol.


 
  
 I am using this driver:
*http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntNXwN3*


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## rb2013

ppataki said:


> I have also ordered a Gustard U12, arrived 3 days ago from China
> It sounds brilliant, bass became somewhat more elemental while the mids and highs are now more detailed
> I can only recommend it!
> 
> ...


Great to hear! Mine should be here in another week or so. And thanks for the driver link


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## rb2013

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/


Great USB interface shootout.

Interesting the 'winner' the Berkeley Alpha Design $1890 unit uses the same XOMS chip and similar crystal clocks. Of course they do the isolation thing extremely well.

I've had the highly ranked Audiophilleo 2 and a tweeked EVO (not with the EVO clock though). The linear ps fed Musiland 3.0 was better then each. Can't wait to see if the U12 beats them.

My ebay seller sent me to the same Bidu site to download the drivers (thank you Google translate! As it's in Chinese). So all set there. You can also get the an evaluation expanded driver set by signing up on the XMOS site. It beeps every 5 minutes after 60. But would be fun to play with.


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## rb2013

http://www.xmos.com/applications/usbaudio


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## Chodi

I modified the full version of the xmos driver 2.23 including the spy tool for the Gustard U12. I do not have a U12 to test it so one of you guys will have to try it and report back. I posted it here:
  
 http://speedy.sh/RXMDH/Luckit-2.23-for-Gustard-U12.rar
  
 It had to be based on the full driver from another vender to use the full license. So...it will appear as the WaveIO driver but it will properly identify your device. This includes all the tools but you will have to go into the installed folder and create a link from the tools to your desktop so you can run them whenever you choose.
  
 Please let me know if this works for you.


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## rb2013

chodi said:


> I modified the full version of the xmos driver 2.23 including the spy tool for the Gustard U12. I do not have a U12 to test it so one of you guys will have to try it and report back. I posted it here:
> 
> http://speedy.sh/RXMDH/Luckit-2.23-for-Gustard-U12.rar
> 
> ...


Thanks! Is this based on the full multi channel version? Does it give the ability to adjust latency like that version?


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## Chodi

rb2013 said:


> Thanks! Is this based on the full multi channel version? Does it give the ability to adjust latency like that version?


 
 As far as I know this is a two channel version. To be honest, I know nothing about any multi-channel version. This is the full version as provided by Thescyon to their paid subscribers. If there is a different multi-channel version that is unknown to me. I am only into two channel stereo for headphone use.


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## rb2013

chodi said:


> As far as I know this is a two channel version. To be honest, I know nothing about any multi-channel version. This is the full version as provided by Thescyon to their paid subscribers. If there is a different multi-channel version that is unknown to me. I am only into two channel stereo for headphone use.


The link to XMOS I provided has a data sheet comparing the different versions. I'm not intetested in the multi channel feature, but the ability to adjust the latency. In my experience this can effect many areas of performance from drop out or unlock frequency to sound quality. The Musiland driver has this ability.


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## Chodi

rb2013 said:


> The link to XMOS I provided has a data sheet comparing the different versions. I'm not intetested in the multi channel feature, but the ability to adjust the latency. In my experience this can effect many areas of performance from drop out or unlock frequency to sound quality. The Musiland driver has this ability.


 
 The version I uploaded does allow you to set the latency as well as other settings. It is the full version. It also includes the spy tool which lets you know exactly what is going on. That is why I took the trouble to modify it and upload it for your use. I just can't test it on the U12 and I have the U10.


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## rb2013

chodi said:


> The version I uploaded does allow you to set the latency as well as other settings. It is the full version. It also includes the spy tool which lets you know exactly what is going on. That is why I took the trouble to modify it and upload it for your use. I just can't test it on the U12 and I have the U10.


That's great! A very big thank you for doing that for us U12 owners. :bigsmile_face:

Mine is still a week away, will try the modded drivers and report the results.

Again much appreciation!


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## Chodi

rb2013 said:


> That's great! A very big thank you for doing that for us U12 owners.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 After install you will need to go into the install folder and create a link/shortcut for the two tools so you can run them from the desktop whenever you want. The tools can be active while the driver is in use. That is really the best function of the spy tool as it allows you to see what is happening in real time.


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## rb2013

The Gustard U12 arrived today! Right out of the box I love the sound of this usb interface!!! 

I've been listening all morning to my system, so when I switched over to the U12 the sound change became quite noticeable. Sweeter first off, more dynamic. A natural, musical flow to the tunes. Nice. Very nice.

I'm running the stock drivers that came with it 2.23. Took just a little tweeking in Foobar to get up and running. Using the Kernel Streamimg KS: xCore USB Output. It doesn't play well with JPlay, not to surprising. Good news, I didn't have to uninstall the Musiland drivers, including their ASIO. Same for JPlay.

My heavily modded PCM1704 Lite DAC 60, is a true R2R ladder 24 bit dac. With Foobar output set at 32bit before with the Musiland 3.0 USB it worked fine. But not with the Gustard. I had to reset it to 24 bit, then the DAC locked on. Since the DAC can only handled 24 bit, it makes me a little suspect of what actual bit depth the Musiland was outputing. The screen shows the sample rate, but not the bit depth. Could have been 16 bit? Or some kind of dithered 32 bit??

All I know is the sound has improved noticeably. Tomorrow I'll try some better power cords to see if that changes the sound. And will run in for 100 hours before doing any critical evaluation. Aslo update the drivers and try Chodi's modded XMOS driver.

I think I'll order another for my other system.

Cheers!


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## rb2013

chodi said:


> The version I uploaded does allow you to set the latency as well as other settings. It is the full version. It also includes the spy tool which lets you know exactly what is going on. That is why I took the trouble to modify it and upload it for your use. I just can't test it on the U12 and I have the U10.


The modded driver works great Thanks! Don't notice a sound difference but it has more controls - like the balance control I need to correct for room issues.

My friend Victor mentioned an older Thesycon driver sounding better. Don't know how much better, as what I'm hearing is incredible. The older driver is the ASIO 1.6.1. He tried to send it to me uncompressed but was to large. He said you heard it and liked it. What's your thoughts. Right now I don't have ASIO as an option only KS and WASAPI. Maybe I need to uninstall the Musiland drivers and reinstall the XMOS ones.


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## Chodi

rb2013 said:


> The modded driver works great Thanks! Don't notice a sound difference but it has more controls - like the balance control I need to correct for room issues.
> 
> My friend Victor mentioned an older Thesycon driver sounding better. Don't know how much better, as what I'm hearing is incredible. The older driver is the ASIO 1.6.1. He tried to send it to me uncompressed but was to large. He said you heard it and liked it. What's your thoughts. Right now I don't have ASIO as an option only KS and WASAPI. Maybe I need to uninstall the Musiland drivers and reinstall the XMOS ones.


 
 Glad to hear that the modded driver works. I couldn't test it on a U12. I am not surprised that you don't hear any difference using ks or wasapi, The difference would be found in the asio driver. The one I sent to you is clearly better in asio than the older version. They have also made corrections to the driver so that the newer version works with usb3. In fact, I use my U10 with usb3. I don't know about your dac but I thought all current dacs support asio. I guess I was wrong. Whatever you do, do not use asio4all. I guess you tried the WaveIO asio driver I included and it doesn't work for you? That is what I am using with my U10. Does it not show up as an option for you to select as a driver? Are you using Jriver or foobar?
  
 Ps: I just caught your comment about the Musiland drivers. You may very well have a driver conflict. I would uninstall all drivers for your dac and only install the driver I provided. More than one driver installed for your dac could cause a problem. You may have to use a driver cleaner to get it all unless you are handy at that sort of thing.


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## rb2013

chodi said:


> Glad to hear that the modded driver works. I couldn't test it on a U12. I am not surprised that you don't hear any difference using ks or wasapi, The difference would be found in the asio driver. The one I sent to you is clearly better in asio than the older version. They have also made corrections to the driver so that the newer version works with usb3. In fact, I use my U10 with usb3. I don't know about your dac but I thought all current dacs support asio. I guess I was wrong. Whatever you do, do not use asio4all. I guess you tried the WaveIO asio driver I included and it doesn't work for you? That is what I am using with my U10. Does it not show up as an option for you to select as a driver? Are you using Jriver or foobar?
> 
> 
> Ps: I just caught your comment about the Musiland drivers. You may very well have a driver conflict. I would uninstall all drivers for your dac and only install the driver I provided. More than one driver installed for your dac could cause a problem. You may have to use a driver cleaner to get it all unless you are handy at that sort of thing.


Well the WaveIO setup stalls when trying to recognize a U12 is connected. Keeps asking me to 'plug in the device or unplug and replug'

Which I've done numerous time, even giving it the stand 20 countdowm. I've uninstalled Jplay and the Musiland drivers, reboot, doesn't work. Same for the 1.6.1 Thesycon driver I got from Victor. Stalls also at the ASIO install - not detecting a device.

My dacs don't recognize any driver, they are straight rca spdif inputs. It's the Gustard that needs to revognize the ASIO. Once installed, the WaveIO.dll in tbe foobar component sub dir takes care of the rest. It'll then show up as an output option.

I need to find a way to get the WaveIO install to recognize the U12, to complete the install.


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## rb2013

Ok success! Got the WaveIOasio to install. Foobar reinstall (needed it anyway was a 1.34 beta almost a yr old). Forgot I needed to configure the ASIO Virtual Devices in Foobar Output. Funny it showed the, I guess stock, ASIO:XMOS USB Audio 2.0 ST 3033 and the ASIO:WaveIO ASIO driver as choices as well as KS and WASAPI. But the ST 3033 would not setup in the Virtual Devices Foobar menu, probably do to a conflict with WaveIO.

I assume WaveIO is the better ASIO driver.

So how does it sound...well not as incisive or dynamic as the KS. Smoother, 'rounder'. Low output level. Nice, but I not sure better then KS. I'll have give the two some evaluation. One thing I already noticed - I'm able to increase the Buffer size in Foobar past 2,000ms, which I was limited in KS mode. Pushed up to 7930ms, sounding better! Smoother still, but gained back some incisiveness.

I love computer audio!!!! Now I can switch on the fly between KS and ASIO! Tweek buffering, dithering, with SoX upsampler 44k wave files to 96k and alaising, bandpass filtering, phase response.

Sounding Awesome! World class already. For $155 a screaming audio bagain


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## ThurstonX

Yer killin' me here, Bob!  Love your enthusiasm.  OK, dumb it down for me: why do I need this device in-between my Win 7 PC and Bifrost w/ their Gen 2 USB?  Obviously I wouldn't be using that $100 element of the Bifrost, if I got this.


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## Chodi

rb2013 said:


> Ok success! Got the WaveIOasio to install. Foobar reinstall (needed it anyway was a 1.34 beta almost a yr old). Forgot I needed to configure the ASIO Virtual Devices in Foobar Output. Funny it showed the, I guess stock, ASIO:XMOS USB Audio 2.0 ST 3033 and the ASIO:WaveIO ASIO driver as choices as well as KS and WASAPI. But the ST 3033 would not setup in the Virtual Devices Foobar menu, probably do to a conflict with WaveIO.
> 
> I assume WaveIO is the better ASIO driver.
> 
> ...


 
 Actually, you probably need to close foobar and restart it when you change from ks to asio for it to register properly. I mostly use Jriver and I have to close the program and restart/open it again after such a driver change for it to switch. I think foobar is the same in that regard. The spy tool I included will easily tell you what is happening if you run that while using foobar it gives you all the information including any errors that might be present.
  
 I might also suggest that you go into your audio control panel and select something else as the default output. If ks or asio are working properly they don't need to be set as default. That will insure that you are bypassing the windows mixer. You could set the sound chip on your motherboard as default output device. There really should not be a volume difference between ks and asio, at least nothing significant.


----------



## rb2013

chodi said:


> Actually, you probably need to close foobar and restart it when you change from ks to asio for it to register properly. I mostly use Jriver and I have to close the program and restart/open it again after such a driver change for it to switch. I think foobar is the same in that regard. The spy tool I included will easily tell you what is happening if you run that while using foobar it gives you all the information including any errors that might be present.
> 
> I might also suggest that you go into your audio control panel and select something else as the default output. If ks or asio are working properly they don't need to be set as default. That will insure that you are bypassing the windows mixer. You could set the sound chip on your motherboard as default output device. There really should not be a volume difference between ks and asio, at least nothing significant.


Well in Foobar you just select the KS or ASIO and hit 'apply'. No need to open and close Foobar, same goes for settings changes to the buffer in the dsp upsampler SoX. You can hear the audible change when going from KS to ASIO. You are right the voln level doesn't change, but the KS is more dynamic so sounds louder. I have the reg DS set for default.

I'm really liking ASIO sound with buffering set at 7800ms.




 I've had trouble opening the Spy tool. I dragged to the desktop.


----------



## rb2013

thurstonx said:


> Yer killin' me here, Bob!  Love your enthusiasm.  OK, dumb it down for me: why do I need this device in-between my Win 7 PC and Bifrost w/ their Gen 2 USB?  Obviously I wouldn't be using that $100 element of the Bifrost, if I got this.


This replaces the Gen 2 USB. It takes the signal from the pc by usb to output by spdif to the rca spdif input on the Bifrost. It isolates the pc noise and electrical ripple from the pc and the dac. But it does more, it's a critical part of the audio chain. The software drivers are important in this conversion process. With several methods to this conversions. The best is considered what is called ASIO (Audio Stream Input Output).


----------



## rb2013

Edit


----------



## Chodi

rb2013 said:


> Well in Foobar you just select the KS or ASIO and hit 'apply'. No need to open and close Foobar, same goes for settings changes to the buffer in the dsp upsampler SoX. You can hear the audible change when going from KS to ASIO. You are right the voln level doesn't change, but the KS is more dynamic so sounds louder. I have the reg DS set for default.
> 
> I'm really liking ASIO sound with buffering set at 7800ms.
> 
> ...


 
 Leave the spy tool in the install folder. The just right click on it and create a shortcut which will go to your desktop. If you try to move the entire spy tool out of the install folder and put it on the desktop it won't run. It needs to be inside the install folder or it cannot find the data. You can just run the spy tool from inside the install folder by double clicking it but it makes more sense to create a shortcut to the desktop so you don't have to keep opening the install folder to run it.


----------



## ThurstonX

rb2013 said:


> This replaces the Gen 2 USB. It takes the signal from the pc by usb to output by spdif to the rca spdif input on the Bifrost. It isolates the pc noise and electrical ripple from the pc and the dac. But it does more, it's a critical part of the audio chain. The software drivers are important in this conversion process. With several methods to this conversions. The best is considered what is called ASIO (Audio Stream Input Output).


 
  
 That's what I thought.  Thanks for confirming.


----------



## genclaymore

It seems to me xmos is a very good chip, when i had devices with Tenor and VIA's usb32 chip i could never get asio or KS to work right for me no matter what i did.  With my Peach tree Audio X1 I bough recently, I don't have any of those issues. Are there any latest xmos drivers out there? I not having issues i just curious, other then the xmos evaluation drivers.


----------



## rb2013

genclaymore said:


> It seems to me xmos is a very good chip, when i had devices with Tenor and VIA's usb32 chip i could never get asio or KS to work right for me no matter what i did.  With my Peach tree Audio X1 I bough recently, I don't have any of those issues. Are there any latest xmos drivers out there? I not having issues i just curious, other then the xmos evaluation drivers.


I believe the latest V2 driver is 2.23


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## rb2013

chodi said:


> Leave the spy tool in the install folder. The just right click on it and create a shortcut which will go to your desktop. If you try to move the entire spy tool out of the install folder and put it on the desktop it won't run. It needs to be inside the install folder or it cannot find the data. You can just run the spy tool from inside the install folder by double clicking it but it makes more sense to create a shortcut to the desktop so you don't have to keep opening the install folder to run it.


Worked -thanks again! The Spytool is very cool. Confirm the KS and ASIO switching in Foobar, without reopenning. In the Spytool when I switch to KS the ASIO tab dissappears.

Where would look for dropouts or hiccups? In the error fields?


----------



## rb2013

OK I cracked open the case for some photos. While it was open, I decided to swap the Philips BC 2,200uf 25v filter caps for some same sized Pana FCs I had leftover from another project. Should give a little better ps ripple filtering.

Here are the photos:


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## Chodi

rb2013 said:


> Worked -thanks again! The Spytool is very cool. Confirm the KS and ASIO switching in Foobar, without reopenning. In the Spytool when I switch to KS the ASIO tab dissappears.
> 
> Where would look for dropouts or hiccups? In the error fields?


 
 Open the spy tool and look down the main menu for ISO Streams and click that. The rest should be obvious as it shows you everything in real time including errors.


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## rb2013

chodi said:


> Open the spy tool and look down the main menu for ISO Streams and click that. The rest should be obvious as it shows you everything in real time including errors.


I've been running for 5 hours with the new caps - not one error in the list. Looks like it's working pefectly. Thanks!


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## sandab

Got my Gustard U12 today, and it sounds excellent.  Much better device than the Peachtree X1.  The X1 by itself sounded pretty harsh with distorted highs and was unlistenable to me without a Wyrd.  Clearly the USB +5V noise was beyond it and affected its PLL badly.  Swapping out the X1 for the U12 helped smooth out and clean up the sound substantially, and although I can tell on any recording it's most noticeable on really bad ones (think Amy Winehouse / Back in Black).  When I have time I'm going to try it with only the U12 and no Wyrd.  But between the X1 and U12 there's no question which is better spent money...


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## elwappo99

Ya'll got me intrigued with this. Looks so simple and clean. Any comparisons to other common USB converters?


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## sandab

Has anyone tried the AES/EBU balanced output from the U12?  Thinking of getting a cable just to try it out...


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## rb2013

sandab said:


> Got my Gustard U12 today, and it sounds excellent.  Much better device than the Peachtree X1.  The X1 by itself sounded pretty harsh with distorted highs and was unlistenable to me without a Wyrd.  Clearly the USB +5V noise was beyond it and affected its PLL badly.  Swapping out the X1 for the U12 helped smooth out and clean up the sound substantially, and although I can tell on any recording it's most noticeable on really bad ones (think Amy Winehouse / Back in Black).  When I have time I'm going to try it with only the U12 and no Wyrd.  But between the X1 and U12 there's no question which is better spent money...


+1. I notice a smoothness or greater musical flow across the board. Better defined bass as well.. Are you running the ASIO driver?


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## rb2013

elwappo99 said:


> Ya'll got me intrigued with this. Looks so simple and clean. Any comparisons to other common USB converters?


I've had the M2Tech EVO fed with a custom linear ps, an Audiophilleo2 and a Musiland USB 3.0 fed by a Aqvox linear ps. It's better then all of those in my system.


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## rb2013

sandab said:


> Has anyone tried the AES/EBU balanced output from the U12?  Thinking of getting a cable just to try it out...


I use the excellent Stilnote USB, after trying 4-5 different USB cables. Not going AES.


----------



## sandab

rb2013 said:


> +1. I notice a smoothness or greater musical flow across the board. Better defined bass as well.. Are you running the ASIO driver?


 
 I'm using a MacBook Pro with the system drivers and Audirvana+ 2.0.2 with SRC to 176/192k enabled.  6db, 0.85 pre-ring, 1.3M frame window.  The U12 announces it can handle 384k, so had to limit it to 176/192k...


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## genclaymore

sandab said:


> Got my Gustard U12 today, and it sounds excellent.  Much better device than the Peachtree X1.  The X1 by itself sounded pretty harsh with distorted highs and was unlistenable to me without a Wyrd.  Clearly the USB +5V noise was beyond it and affected its PLL badly.  Swapping out the X1 for the U12 helped smooth out and clean up the sound substantially, and although I can tell on any recording it's most noticeable on really bad ones (think Amy Winehouse / Back in Black).  When I have time I'm going to try it with only the U12 and no Wyrd.  But between the X1 and U12 there's no question which is better spent money...


 
 Do you meant the X1 usb to spdif converter or the external dac,  Because when you said X1 I thought you meant the usb to spdif converter which I have. You think the wyrd or a powered usb hub may help the X1 usb to spdif converter.


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## sandab

The Bifrost isn't nearly as sensitive to USB noise as the Yulong Sabre D18.  But it also doesn't have the same clear highs and is overall far more relaxed and mellow sounding.  The D18 is brutally unforgiving.  One could call it transparency, but I don't think it's transparency in a good sense.  Properly fed however it's really nice.


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## elwappo99

rb2013 said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > Ya'll got me intrigued with this. Looks so simple and clean. Any comparisons to other common USB converters?
> ...


 
  
 Better than an Audiophileo? That's a pretty strong statement. Thanks for the info.


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## rb2013

elwappo99 said:


> Better than an Audiophileo? That's a pretty strong statement. Thanks for the info.


Yes, and with Jplay! I never did get the battery supply. I really liked the M2Tech EVO which I did try with a Lipo battery ps, but preferred the Apocain Yellow Box linear ps I built. But the Musiland surpassed both of those. The Gustard is at a whole new level.

I would love to try the Berkeley Audio Alpha USB. But it's $1890.


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## sandab

No difference with or without the Wyrd that I can tell... makes it an even better buy!


----------



## dannyhc

Mine arrived today and the smile cannot be wiped from my face. I always had my skepticism about reclockers but 0.1PPM made me sit up and take notice.

No bloom, No glare, smooth passage into the ear canal without any harsh ringing.

My recommendation is to buy it now before the price sky rockets and buy shares in Gustard!


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## Chodi

dannyhc said:


> Mine arrived today and the smile cannot be wiped from my face. I always had my skepticism about reclockers but 0.1PPM made me sit up and take notice.
> 
> No bloom, No glare, smooth passage into the ear canal without any harsh ringing.
> 
> My recommendation is to buy it now before the price sky rockets and buy shares in Gustard!


 
 Yea, I've had the U10 for several months and it has to be one of the best buys in audio. Amazing performance even forgetting the low price.


----------



## elwappo99

sandab said:


> No difference with or without the Wyrd that I can tell... makes it an even better buy!


 
  
 Probably shouldn't. Looks like the U12 doesn't use the power from the USB connector, just the Data, so cleaning up the power signal won't matter.


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## rb2013

dannyhc said:


> Mine arrived today and the smile cannot be wiped from my face. I always had my skepticism about reclockers but 0.1PPM made me sit up and take notice.
> 
> No bloom, No glare, smooth passage into the ear canal without any harsh ringing.
> 
> My recommendation is to buy it now before the price sky rockets and buy shares in Gustard!



+1. My second one arrives today, for my other system. The 1st has been running for days now without a single error, unlock, or hiccup. Even during a storm we had, when the power faded a few times. Pretty awesome sound


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## sandab

elwappo99 said:


> Probably shouldn't. Looks like the U12 doesn't use the power from the USB connector, just the Data, so cleaning up the power signal won't matter.


 
 I think it does - it uses the +5V to switch a power relay if nothing else...


----------



## rb2013

Wow! The second U12 arrived, I installed in my main system. The change in sound quality is not subtile. A huge leap, right off the bass is a half octave lower and very well defined. Really thunderous now, I'm sorted shocked. I know this component is important, but never realized how important. Still trying to get my mind around the exact why. Is it a reduction in jitter? PC noise filtering? The sound is cleaner, much greater clarity and transparency. Still the sound is warm, with excellent rich tone. It's like some unheard distortion has been removed. And my system was sounding really good before.

What an awesome audio bargain. I'll upgrade the caps on this one tomorrow and start looking for an upgraded power chord.



Edit typos


----------



## sandab

rb2013 said:


> start looking for an upgraded power chord.


 
 Heh, did you get the 90-degree cable also that angles out over the back of the unit?  Not exactly a stroke of genius there. 
 Still, for good cheap power cables I've been happy with PS Audio Jewel 1's... Music Direct has them for $35/$40 depending on length (1m vs 1.5m).


----------



## rb2013

sandab said:


> Heh, did you get the 90-degree cable also that angles out over the back of the unit?  Not exactly a stroke of genius there.
> Still, for good cheap power cables I've been happy with PS Audio Jewel 1's... Music Direct has them for $35/$40 depending on length (1m vs 1.5m).


Actually it shipped with wrong cable, not a problem as I have a few around. I put Custom Cable Power Cord pc on the other, made a slight improvement. I like Shunyata Diamondback for a well made, good sounding pc. They're around $59 on ebay. On my main system I use Synergistic Research X2 ref but they're too expensive for this purpose.

I just ordered a Shunyata

PS The Shunyata Venom are really good too. I use one of those in my other syatem.


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Wow! The second U12 arrived, I installed in my main system. The change in sound quality is not subtile. A huge leap, right off the bass is a half octave lower and very well defined. Really thunderous now, I'm sorted shocked. I know this component is important, but never realized how important. Still trying to get my mind around the exact why. Is it a reduction in jitter? PC noise filtering? The sound is cleaner, much greater clarity and transparency. Still the sound is warm, with excellent rich tone. It's like some unheard distortion has been removed. And my system was sounding really good before.
> 
> What an awesome audio bargain. I'll upgrade the caps on this one tomorrow and start looking for an upgraded power chord.
> 
> ...


 

 The independent power supply helps a lot because it is no longer dependent on the weak and noisy USB 5V supply, which can only supply up to 500mA of current, that can drop to 100mA in some cases.
  
 If you are interested in a better power supply consider replacing the power transformer, I have a similar unit based on the previous generation XMOS and it came with the green Bingzi transformer. I wanted something that was UL rated and replaced it with an Amgis/Alfamag, the bonus was it ran much cooler and the Alfamag was about 10% heavier (more copper in the windings)
 Outside of the US, Talema is easier to find and a little cheaper.
  
 I also installed ultra low jitter crystal XOs replacing the "Precision 0.1ppm" ones that it came with.
 The Gustard looks like it has separate regulators for the XOs so it is probably worthwhile to put in a low jitter unit.
  
 The last part is to replace some of the caps with Panasonic OSCONs and Nichicon FP Polymer caps.
 The main rectifier filters  I used the Chemicon KZN. The KZN has 2x lower ESR than the supposedly Panasonic PX caps
 (I think the PX are fakes)
  
 Pictures of my unit.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> The independent power supply helps a lot because it is no longer dependent on the weak and noisy USB 5V supply, which can only supply up to 500mA of current, that can drop to 100mA in some cases.
> 
> If you are interested in a better power supply consider replacing the power transformer, I have a similar unit based on the previous generation XMOS and it came with the green Bingzi transformer. I wanted something that was UL rated and replaced it with an Amgis/Alfamag, the bonus was it ran much cooler and the Alfamag was about 10% heavier (more copper in the windings)
> Outside of the US, Talema is easier to find and a little cheaper.
> ...


Hey, thanks for the mod tips!

Well my M2Tech EVO ran a very clean $300 linear PS built from a Acopian Yellow Box. And my previous interface favorite had it's power completely detached from the PC and fed from a linear ps Aqvox. 

The sound improvement with unit is blowing me away. I actually listened to CLASSICAL last night, the 1st time I've done that. Usually it's Alt, Emo or Rock. A Beethoven piano sonnata - the piano just hung in space. I mean it was in the freaking room! The notes were free of any glare at all, very hard to do on solo piano. Their overtones just rang perfectly. Radiating out into the room as 3d point sources, as would a real piano, truly spooky. The conveying of emotion absolutely moving. Now I have recently recapped my amp's film caps with Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil. These have been in few a few weeks, and are now fully run in. But they were there before the Gustard. The clarty, transparency, bass extension and definition improvement is really outstanding.

I will buy one more to do further mods. The big blue tranny is different then green one you replaced? If you go to the Hifiduino website, the reviewerhas some criticisms of the XMOS implementation in the DIYinHK board. It has to do with the reliance on the internal clock of the XMOS chip. I'm wondering if the Gustard's implementation of clacking is different. Worth a read.


Edit typos


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> The big blue tranny is different then green one you replaced? If you go to the Hifiduino website, the reviewerhas some criticisms of the XMOS implementation in the DIYinHK board. It has to do with the reliance on the internal clock of the XMOS chip. I'm wondering if the Gustard's implementation of clacking is different. Worth a read.




Minor differences, both are 15VA units. The blue one is 14Vac vs 15Vac for the green one. 

My original intent was to get a transformer with the proper safety agency approvals (UL,VDE,CE etc) as it was turned on 24x7, it turned out to improve the sound, the bass was more extended and there was overall more definition to the music, it removed a lot of smearing on complex passages.

I would be interested in a link on the internal clock issue on the XMOS, I remember reading something on the Hifiduino site. 

Thanks for posting the detailed pictures on the Gustard, it helped to answer a lot of questions I had on the unit.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Minor differences, both are 15VA units. The blue one is 14Vac vs 15Vac for the green one.
> 
> My original intent was to get a transformer with the proper safety agency approvals (UL,VDE,CE etc) as it was turned on 24x7, it turned out to improve the sound, the bass was more extended and there was overall more definition to the music, it removed a lot of smearing on complex passages.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the info - will have to try the transformer swap.
  
 Here's the link  http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/category/usb-audio/
  
 Regarding the DIYinHK XMOS board:
  
*OSCILLATORS*

According to DIYINHK, this version uses NDK NZ2520SD Ultralow phase noise oscillators from Japan. There are 3 oscillators: the 48 MHz for the digital circuitry of the XMOS device, the 45.158MHz and 49.152 MHz for the audio frequencies.













NDK has some general information on their oscillators, including jitter data here: [link]. Below is the phase noise plot of the NDK oscillators. Note the phase noise curve of the “SD” models.





And here is the phase noise plot of the CCHD-957. Note the phase noise value of the CCHD-957 at 10 Hz (-97) vs the phase noise value of the NDK oscillator at 10 HZ (-113)





 

*MASTER CLOCK*

The Master Clock is available straight from the NDK oscillators or at the appropriate scaled-down frequency through the output pins.

Straight from the oscillators (45.158MHz and 49.152 MHz) through a U.FL socket:





Through the output pins (22.5792Mhz/24.576Mhz).

The “C7424Z” device is used as a clock divider to generate the 22.xx and 24.xx frequencies used by XMOS device and also used by the downstream device (the DAC). Seems the clock line to the XMOS device is also isolated in order to prevent any kind of noise leakage from the XMOS/USB side to the Clock/Clean side..

 

I posted there this question and received this reply

   On the XMOS clocking issue, I believe you described the clock derivation issue as:
 “And according to this doc [link], the input clock (say the 24.576MHz clock) is sampled to the internal processor clock. Meaning that the external clock ticks (or transitions) are mapped to the processor clock ticks. This means that the worse “jitter” is when you just miss the external clock transition and must wait for the next internal clock tick. So the worse deviation from the actual frequency is the period of the processor frequency, thus for a 400MHz internal clock part, it is 2.5nS. This is the peak jitter. Thus the RMS number is 2.5/SQR(2)=700 psec””
 Was this just a implementation of the XMOS on this particular DIYINHK board using the C7424Z chip, or is it implicit to designing around the XMOS? Sounds that way.
 Although it was mentioned by HML that “The Xmos processor data sheets suggest that it may be possible to use the MCLK for the clock source for the BCLK and LRCLK. This is not done in the reference design and not in the DIYINHK board.”
 I will post closeups of the Gustard U12 board when I get it.



  

 

 



 BlgGear​  2014/10/07 at 17:52
Reply
   I don’t recall completely, but I think this is inherent in the XMOS chip.


----------



## sandab

Another potential source of jitter is the clock scalers themselves.  They're edge triggered with a hysteresis relative to Vss/GND.  If Vss or GND is noisy the trigger point will move around.  With switched (e.g. CMOS) logic rather than some current-mode logic there will be switching noise.  The switching noise is synced to the switching events, which are clock-based.  Mostly the main 48M logic clock (which I assume is internal multiplied into multiple phases), but also the audio clocks around the actual scaling logic.  Decoupling is difficult as caps are hard on solid-state, and the distance to an external cap is thousands of times further than from the switch noise sources to triggers - so the decoupling is mainly of external merit, not internal.
  
 By the way, my go-to first stop for all things clock and PLL related is Floyd M. Gardner: _Phaselock Techniques_.  (http://www.amazon.com/Phaselock-Techniques-Floyd-M-Gardner/dp/0471430633/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413748575&sr=8-1&keywords=phaselock+techniques).  It has about 60 pages on the effects of noise on PLLs, most of it discussing nonlinear effects (which in this context the author defines as gaussian distribution in, non-gaussian out).  It helps if you have an EE background (especially the mathematical end, although some of it is purely notational like "f(z) mod 2pi"), but much of it is quite accessible. If you're an EE like me you'll love this book.


----------



## b0bb

Thanks, it is a good amount of info
  
 Quote:


rb2013 said:


> On the XMOS clocking issue, I believe you described the clock derivation issue as:
> “And according to this doc [link], the input clock (say the 24.576MHz clock) is sampled to the internal processor clock. Meaning that the external clock ticks (or transitions) are mapped to the processor clock ticks. This means that the worse “jitter” is when you just miss the external clock transition and must wait for the next internal clock tick. So the worse deviation from the actual frequency is the period of the processor frequency, thus for a 400MHz internal clock part, it is 2.5nS. This is the peak jitter. Thus the RMS number is 2.5/SQR(2)=700 psec””
> Was this just a implementation of the XMOS on this particular DIYINHK board using the C7424Z chip, or is it implicit to designing around the XMOS? Sounds that way.
> Although it was mentioned by HML that “The Xmos processor data sheets suggest that it may be possible to use the MCLK for the clock source for the BCLK and LRCLK. This is not done in the reference design and not in the DIYINHK board.”
> ...


 
 I am thinking this is a way to slave the processor clock to the master clock. XMOS has gone to the trouble of allowing switchable master clocks, I think the samples are clocked out using this master clock.
 The processor has to keep the output buffers full and must do it within the hard sampling time limits, this slaving prevents the 2 clock domains from drifting too far apart.
  
 Put another way, the processor clock is always within 2.5ns of the master clock edge, which is clever way of doing things. 
 They just have to make sure the output buffer is big enough to ride out any latency in the software processing inside the core.
  
BCLK and LRCLK has to be divided down internally from the internal reference clock, the question in my mind is whether they are doing it using a hardware scaler preferably linked to MCLK or some sort of software based PLL. I hope it is the first method.
 
 (If you see info to the contrary, I would like to take a look)


----------



## sandab

You always run a scaler using the clock you're going to scale.  Nothing else would make sense. 
  
 I doubt the Gustard U12 has a PLL, but the downstream DAC will.  It has to, or its frame block buffers would otherwise eventually overrun or underrun.


----------



## b0bb

sandab said:


> You always run a scaler using the clock you're going to scale.  Nothing else would make sense.
> 
> I doubt the Gustard U12 has a PLL, but the downstream DAC will.  It has to, or its frame block buffers would otherwise eventually overrun or underrun.


 

 Agreed.
  
 The XMOS on the Gustard does a superb job of isolating the USB data + clock from the SPDIF output.
  
 I see this as the modern day equivalent of the SPDIF reclockers of days past.
  
 One thought I had was to take the U12 board out incorporate the I2S interface straight into twin Buffalo 3 DACS, the HDMI out has more than enough drive capability.
 (It about USD$80 more than an Amanero board).


----------



## rb2013

sandab said:


> Another potential source of jitter is the clock scalers themselves.  They're edge triggered with a hysteresis relative to Vss/GND.  If Vss or GND is noisy the trigger point will move around.  With switched (e.g. CMOS) logic rather than some current-mode logic there will be switching noise.  The switching noise is synced to the switching events, which are clock-based.  Mostly the main 48M logic clock (which I assume is internal multiplied into multiple phases), but also the audio clocks around the actual scaling logic.  Decoupling is difficult as caps are hard on solid-state, and the distance to an external cap is thousands of times further than from the switch noise sources to triggers - so the decoupling is mainly of external merit, not internal.
> 
> By the way, my go-to first stop for all things clock and PLL related is Floyd M. Gardner: _Phaselock Techniques_.  (http://www.amazon.com/Phaselock-Techniques-Floyd-M-Gardner/dp/0471430633/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413748575&sr=8-1&keywords=phaselock+techniques).  It has about 60 pages on the effects of noise on PLLs, most of it discussing nonlinear effects (which in this context the author defines as gaussian distribution in, non-gaussian out).  It helps if you have an EE background (especially the mathematical end, although some of it is purely notational like "f(z) mod 2pi"), but much of it is quite accessible. If you're an EE like me you'll love this book.


 
 Great detailed info thanks!  The reason all (as much as possible) ps noise or ripple has to suppressed and or filtered.  I think the excellent ps filtering and isloation of this device is an important reason it sounds so good.  
  
 I don't see a “C7424Z” device or equivlent on the Gustard board unless I'm missing something.  Blg Gear asked about the ALTERA MAX II chip and it's function. It's a dsp I believe and my thinking was it does the DSD processing.  Any thoughts there?


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> I am thinking this is a way to slave the processor clock to the master clock. XMOS has gone to the trouble of allowing switchable master clocks, I think the samples are clocked out using this master clock.
> The processor has to keep the output buffers full and must do it within the hard sampling time limits, this slaving prevents the 2 clock domains from drifting too far apart.
> 
> Put another way, the processor clock is always within 2.5ns of the master clock edge, which is clever way of doing things.
> ...


 
 Well that would be an better implementation, which would avoid the syncing issues Blg Gear points out in the DIYinHK board


----------



## rb2013

One of my Gustard U12s is feeding a heavily upgraded and modded true R2R DAC.  
  
 I took a PCM 1704 Lite DAC60 and replaced many of the caps, especially the couplers - replaced with Mundorf Supreme's (and soon to further upgraded by Mundorf Supreme Silver in Oil caps).  I swapped a critical ps resistor with a Hammond choke, upgraded the Elna caps to ELna RFS Simlic II, and replaced an important pr of elcheapo electrolytic with Mundorf M'Lytic Dual Cap, HiFi tuning fuse, upgraded cryod silver fuse holder.  I have another level of mods to do before the project is complete - 4 more Elna RFS Silmics, 4 Nichicon Fine Gold to replace the Sanyo ps filter caps, Vampire all copper CM2FCB rca sockets, Mundorf silver wire, Mundorf silver solder.
  
 And the best - the finest 6922 I've had the pleasure of hearing (and I have had them all including Amperex PWs, Siemens CCa's Tele E88CC's, Lorentz Suttgards, etc..) the extraordinary '75 6n23p Reflector Silver Shield Single Wire Getter Posts (see my review on the Lyr tube rolling thread).
  
 The stock Lite DAC 60 is very good and an incredible bargain at $650 -  with the upgrades it gives my APL DAC a stiff match (which costs any times more).
  
 R2R dacs are known for their excellent natural full tone.  If your interested in the different DAC chip designs checkout this link: http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
  
 My modded DAC60 before the stage III mods which I should be able to complete next weekend.
  
 The stock dac:

  
 After stage II mods
  

  
 Edit: typos


----------



## merlin2049er

Hey, got mine today.  But they sent the Euro model.  I'll have to crack it open and flip the switch.
  
 I need to find a dac now to use this with.


----------



## rb2013

merlin2049er said:


> Hey, got mine today.  But they sent the Euro model.  I'll have to crack it open and flip the switch.
> 
> I need to find a dac now to use this with.


 
 Was it marked on the outside 220V? Or is it just that the cable was for a Chinese three prong.  Both of mine came with that weird cord - but was set with the correct voltage.  The plug on the back is standard IEC - so just used one of my many ac cords.  An old PC cord would work.
  
 I've had many, many dacs.  Really liking the R2R PCM1704 Lite DAC60 - $650 shipped.  Just spend $80 for some better 6922s and you have a very sweet sounding dac.  The PCM1704 is reknowned for it's rich natural tone.  No opamps at all in this unit.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/LITE-Hi-End-DAC-60-High-quality-Coaxial-optical-DAC-Digital-audio-decoder-/191370252698?p
  
 or the SS output Lite DAC-83 which used 4 PCM 1704s - http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2011/01/lite-dac-83-4-x-burr-brown-pcm1704uk/


----------



## merlin2049er

Yes, I got a 3 pong chinese cable.  I didn't see any markings on it.  
 I'll take a close look.


----------



## rb2013

merlin2049er said:


> Yes, I got a 3 pong chinese cable.  I didn't see any markings on it.
> I'll take a close look.


 
 Right under the IEC socket the 220V should be blacked out and 115V should be in white.
  
 Edit: But opening the case just to be sure would be a good idea


----------



## sandab

Mine has 115V blacked out but was set to 115V internally.


----------



## Jamiee

Mine arrived the other day.
 It came with a North American standard power cord, but I noted that the casing under the plug socket showed the 220V marking.
 Opened up the unit and sure enough it was set for 220V operation.  No biggie, I just flipped the switch to 115V and all is good.
  
 While I had the casing open, I also swapped out the fuse for an audio grade Furutech part and also added some Stillpoints ERS fabric to various points of the interior.
  
 The U12 sounds great, although still requires more break-in time.  I remember my Gustard U10 took about a week before it started sounding it's best.
  
 They sound similar, but perhaps the U12 sounds a touch warmer (more romantic) compared to the U10.
  
 Either way, the "value for money" is stupidly high on these things!


----------



## merlin2049er

I picked up a few dacs from diyinhk.  I wanted to use one with a raspberry pi and volumio.  
  
 Anyone try that combo?


----------



## rb2013

jamiee said:


> Mine arrived the other day.
> It came with a North American standard power cord, but I noted that the casing under the plug socket showed the 220V marking.
> Opened up the unit and sure enough it was set for 220V operation.  No biggie, I just flipped the switch to 115V and all is good.
> 
> ...


 
 ++1
  
 Well I think before plugging it's best to check the internal switch.
  
 The ERS fabric is a good idea, I use it on all my DACs, pre-amps, amps and digital gear.  Will order a Hifi Tunig fuse as well.


----------



## rb2013

merlin2049er said:


> I picked up a few dacs from diyinhk.  I wanted to use one with a raspberry pi and volumio.
> 
> Anyone try that combo?


 
 HifiDuino has a great diy project using a new (1st in many decades) R2R DAC chip the *Seokris R2R.  I've been thinking about using this board for a diy project.*
  
http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2014/10/12/r2r-for-the-rest-of-us/
  
 http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
  
 http://www.ti.com/product/pcm1704
 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/259488-reference-dac-module-discrete-r-2r-sign-magnitude-24-bit-384-khz.html
  
 Sorry haven't heard the raspberry pi or volumino

*Parameter**Seokris R2R**PCM1704+DF1704**AD1865+Digital Filter*Max Input Sample Size24bit24bit18bitMax Input Sample Rate382KHz96KHz44KHzMax Resolution28bit (1)24bit18bitInputs (2)1x Isolated I2S, 3x SPDIF/TOSLINK/AES/EBU [link]; future DSD upgradeSerial only (DF1704: LJ, I2S)Serial only through the digital filter chipS/W InterfaceSerial (Not I2C)Serial (Not I2C)Depends on filter chipOversampling FilterOn-board built-in and user defined (3)Sharp, Slow roll-off (DF1704)Needs External FilterChannels2 – StereoPCM1704 is single channel, so DF1704+2XPCM17042 – StereoJitter ReductionRe-clocking input data through a FIFO Buffer (similar in design to Ian’s FIFO [link]). Uses a low jitter (0.8 psec RMS) Si514 programmable clock [link] which drives the LVC595 shift registers after clock division in the FPGA (Si514 -> FPGA divider -> LVC595)NoneNoneOutput“Raw” single-ended voltage output (1.4V RMS, 1.25 Kohm) or buffered balanced voltage output using TI LME49710 + LME49724 [link]Single-ended current outputSingle-ended current output or buffered single-ended voltage outputJitter ReductionFIFO Buffer and reclock with low jitter clockNoneNoneTHD+N (0db)0.0063% .05% resistors (Module measurement)0.0008% K-Grade (PCM1704 spec)0.003% J/K Grade (AD1865 spec)THD+N (-20db)-0.006% K-Grade (PCM1704 spec)0.01% J/K Grade (AD1865 spec)THD+N (-60db)0.37% .05% resistors (Module measurement)-1% J/K Grade (AD1865 spec)SNR126 dB (Link)120 dB110 dB


----------



## merlin2049er

Yes, I'm planning on getting one of these.  Hopefully a complete unit.


----------



## rb2013

Wow!  Listening this morning, in my office, to the 1st Gustard I recieved - just background classical.  The sound had become so good it keeps capturing my attention from work.  Just creamy smooth but with incredible detail.  Rich natural tone - very nice!


----------



## merlin2049er

Is there a linux driver for this xmos?  If so, where would I find it, and how about a linux audio player?


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> HifiDuino has a great diy project using a new (1st in many decades) R2R DAC chip the *Seokris R2R.  I've been thinking about using this board for a diy project.*


 
 Nice find!
  
 I am quite interested in a modern R2R DAC that is cheaper than the TotalDAC.
  
 The company is Soekris Engineering (www.soekris.com) located in Scotts Valley, California
 Nothing on their webpage as of yet.
  
 The funny thing is that is the same company that made one of my Embedded x86  Firewall Single Board Computers, this explains the nice layout of the board.


----------



## b0bb

merlin2049er said:


> Is there a linux driver for this xmos?  If so, where would I find it, and how about a linux audio player?


 

 XMOS is a USB Class 2 audio device, the default linux kernel has a driver in the kernel.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> XMOS is a USB Class 2 audio device, the default linux kernel has a driver in the kernel.


 
 Same for Macs I believe  - only Mister Softy has left USB 2.0 support out of Windows - even 8.  Well 9 is about to come - there is always hope - and if not then 10 in another yr and 11 and...


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Nice find!
> 
> I am quite interested in a modern R2R DAC that is cheaper than the TotalDAC.
> 
> ...


 
 That TotalDAC is some machine - hand soldered individual resistors!  Audio-gd makes some nice DACs - like the 10.32 Ref
  
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/Reference10/RE10EN.htm


----------



## rb2013

Over on another thread - someone asked - Why not just run a spdif optical out from the PC -it sounds really good?  Why go for a separate UBS interface.
  
 My response was this:
 "Really, Optical in every implementation has sounded worse to me.  But Optical SPDIF are you running straight out of the PC card or laptop?
  
 In that case the PC has to do three functions: 1)convert bits to a digital stream, like (WAVE, FLAC, DSD, MP3, etc).  (2) Then convert that stream to the appropriate output format for the DAC to lock onto - say PCM.  (3)Then convert that electrical signal to light pulses.  The DAC then has to reconvert those light pulses back into electrical signals and then convert those digital electrical signals into analogue wave forms to send to the pre-amp.  All in Realtime.  With USB Asyn 2.0 the digital output is kept in the OS digital domain, using different standards or protocols (for example in Windows) like ASIO, KS (Kernal Streaming), WASAPI, DS, etc.. The best like ASIO and KS bypass the Windows mixer and on chip sound processing, passing a 'pure' digital stream to the interface processor which then converts to PCM or DSD, here the interface can output this signal in either optical or electrical formats and transmit those over spdif, either optical or coaxial to the DAC. 
  
 I've heard all the arguments about optical 'galvanic isolation' but the sound to me is closed in, almost muffled.  And I have tried some of the best optical chords, and it still sounded inferior.  The issue is the very inexpensive electro-optical/optical-electro converters on most MBs, cards, interfaces, or DACs.  But if you like optical, the Gustard has an optical output.  It comes down to clocking, jitter management, and ps filtering - all things the Gustard does extremely well.
  
 Dedicated dual 0.1ppm Temperature Compensated Crystal Oscillator Clocks in the Gustard U12.  Rather using one clock and the realtime errors prone to converting the math, the Gustard uses a dedicated high speed clock for each frequency. 
  
"
  
 I guess the issue is asking a lot of the PC - especially within a very electrically noisy environment.  The switching PS, fan motors, all feed back through the powers supply creating ps ripple and interference issues as well as the EMI/RFI of the CPU and associated components.
  
 Any comments?  How does your Gustard compare to running straight from the PC?
  
 Edit PS anybody directly compare the U12 to the Gen2 board on the Schiit Bifrost?  I thought someone mentioned that they had that setup


----------



## rb2013

Someone also asked about issues with the C-Media CM6631A
  
  
"This is based on the newest USB2 audio chip on the block, The C-Media chip is the CM6631A. This version in turn is the newer, the “A” version of the CM6631 chip which has been implemented in several recent products. The CM6631A differs from the more common (and older) CM6631 in that it supports 176.4KHz sample rate. All other features are the same as the CM6631."
  
  
"Since the board does not switch the clock lines, you can only select one of the clock lines to feed the ESS DAC. In this manner, with some of the sample frequencies the DAC will operate in synchronous mode and with other sample frequencies, in the normal asynchronous mode.
For example, if you chose to use the X45 line (45.1584 MHz) as the clock for the ESS DAC, then when playing 44.1K, 88.2K and 176.4K the DAC will operate in synchronous mode and when playing 48K, 96K and 192K, the DAC will operate in asynchronous mode.
You could manually switch the clock lines but this is not only impractical, but it could also upset the DAC requiring a reset."
 
 
  
  
 https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/c-media-cm6631a-based-usb-i2s-interface/


----------



## rb2013

Someone also posted this link to Jason of Schitt's comments about his discussions with Mike Moffat about USB audio:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/690#post_10441924
  


> *When Mike Says USB Sucks, You Listen*
> 
> Okay. Enough of the bragging. The fact is, I’m excited to have Mike Moffat as a partner, and I’m proud of his resume. He’s contributed quite a bit to the digital audio realm—just look at Sony’s original stance of “perfect sound forever,” and their current frank discussion of jitter-reducing measures in their audio products. Quite a turnaround.
> 
> But to get back on topic, let’s talk about DACs. Not Mike’s original idea for a DAC, the one he came up with shortly after we started the company, but Bifrost....


 


> Mike grumbled something under his breath, then spat out: “But USB sucks. It just sucks. It was never meant for audio. It’s an all-purpose, packet-based grab-bag that might be fine for printers or hard drives, but it’s just crap for streaming. You can recover the clock from the packet clock, barf, or you can have the computer and DAC do some negotiating and guess at the clock, barf, or you can turn the whole car around and drive it from the back seat with the computer providing the clock, barf.”
> 
> *Note:* the above, for the more technical, is Mike’s take on isosynchronus, adaptive, and asynchronous USB implementations.


 
 Well I've had some really good cd spinners, dedicated transports, and a very expensive near sota analog system.  And I don't remember getting the quality of sound as I'm hearing now with the Gustard.


----------



## ThurstonX

rb2013 said:


> Someone also asked about issues with the C-Media CM6631A
> 
> "This is based on the newest USB2 audio chip on the block, The C-Media chip is the CM6631A. This version in turn is the newer, the “A” version of the CM6631 chip which has been implemented in several recent products. The CM6631A differs from the more common (and older) CM6631 in that it supports 176.4KHz sample rate. All other features are the same as the CM6631."
> 
> ...


 
  
 If I'm not mistaken, those comments refer to the specific board in question (i.e., implementation of the C-Media CM6631A).  It would be interesting to put those issues to Jason and/or Mike to see if they apply to the Gen 2 USB module in the Bifrost.  In reading Jason's story of the Bifrost's development, he mentions the "click" associated with a reset that takes place when switching between bit depth/sample rate in order to keep everything bitperfect (i.e., no upsampling).
  
 The following come from  http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/690#post_10441924
  
 “No, I’m not gonna tell you that,” I said. “But what are we talking about here? *How hard is it to keep everything bitperfect?*”
  
 “It’s a pain in the ass,” Mike said. “We’ll need a microprocessor to switch the clocks, *we have to reset the DAC when sample rates change*, we’ll need a hard relay mute, stuff like that.”
  
 ...[and later]...
  
*Rewards of doing what everyone else was doing:*
  
 ...

*Easier support:* no explanations about why *the DAC has to be reset, resulting in the famous “clicking*)
  
  
 Who knows, maybe $155 dollars will fall into my lap (or I'll just get way too curious), and I'll get to compare the Gustard U12 to the Gen 2 USB Bifrost.
 Thanks for all the posts, Bob


----------



## rb2013

ThurstonX  Didn't know if you saw these posts: 





ppataki said:


> I have also ordered a Gustard U12, arrived 3 days ago from China
> It sounds brilliant, bass became somewhat more elemental while the mids and highs are now more detailed
> I can only recommend it!
> 
> ...


 


> [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/c/c7/100x100px-LS-c78159e1_beel.png[/img]
> 
> sandab
> 
> ...


 
  


> [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/8/81/100x100px-LS-81cc36ee_avatar-120-5.jpg[/img]
> 
> dannyhc
> 
> ...


----------



## sandab

Received my balanced 110ohm AES/EBU balanced coax (Canare cable, Neutrik XLR connectors, nothing fancy here) the other day and today did a little bit of swapping back-and-forth with a 75ohm RCA coax, and I don't think there's any obvious difference.  Possibly some very slight difference in the high mid quality; it might be slightly cleaner but I wouldn't sign off on this.  I tested mostly with the new Bennet-Gaga release in 96/24 and think Gaga's vocals _might_ be a little cleaner.  This is between a U12 and a Yulong Sabre D18; I think the DAC is a pretty significant factor here - it's in fact the DAC that doesn't benefit significantly from the balanced digital input.  Regardless, I like XLR connectors better than RCA so it's a keeper if for no other reason.


----------



## Jamiee

I use both AES and SPDIF COAX outs on the U12.
  
 The AES feeds an April Music DAC, which in turn feeds two headphone amps.
 The SPDIF COAX feeds a KRK ERGO controller, which in turn feeds a pair of Focal studio monitors and sub.


----------



## NinjaHamster

How much power does the Gustard require ?  Is it a 12V input, and how may mAh ? I'm just trying to figure out if my linear power supply could run it.  Thankyou.


----------



## Jamiee

The U12 has a 115v or 220V IEC socket for power.  This is switchable inside the unit.


----------



## rb2013

ninjahamster said:


> How much power does the Gustard require ?  Is it a 12V input, and how may mAh ? I'm just trying to figure out if my linear power supply could run it.  Thankyou.


 
 Yes this is one of the few USB interfaces that run on regular AC - not DC.  
  
 Just ordered this cable for it: Venom 3s C13 Powersnakes Shielded Power Cable - 1.75m
  
 http://www.hideflifestyle.com/venom-3s-powersnakes-shielded-power-cable-1-75m.html
  
 Such a fine unit deserves to be well fed.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> The independent power supply helps a lot because it is no longer dependent on the weak and noisy USB 5V supply, which can only supply up to 500mA of current, that can drop to 100mA in some cases.
> 
> If you are interested in a better power supply consider replacing the power transformer, I have a similar unit based on the previous generation XMOS and it came with the green Bingzi transformer. I wanted something that was UL rated and replaced it with an Amgis/Alfamag, the bonus was it ran much cooler and the Alfamag was about 10% heavier (more copper in the windings)
> Outside of the US, Talema is easier to find and a little cheaper.
> ...


 
Just ordered the Alfamag transformer - $17.68 from Digikey it looks like a drop in replacement - thanks for the info!
  
 Edit: Do you think the pinouts are the same on both the stock and Amgis trannys?  It [size=13.3333330154419px]appears so except sideways.[/size]  The Amgis is  115VAC on the top - 7VDC on the bottom.  Looking down neg on the left - pos on the right. The stock is looking down 115V on the left - but looks like 9V on the right.  Is that Neg to the left on the DC - the AC to the right?  Wondering if I might need a 9V version?
  
It looks like these might be better in this unit - both 9V http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/L01-6341/TE2245-ND/2137075
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/70041K/1295-1041-ND/3881432   The Amgis is $19 and the Talema is $22.
  

  
 Also the caps to the right of the FCs the metal cans look like 16V 330uf (C55 & C56) - what do you think?  Will replace with Oscons. The stock ones have a little black box SMD on the bottom, those are the polymers?  
 Digikey has the through the hole Nichicon FP's http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/RHT1C331MDN1/493-3739-ND/2207349


----------



## Jamiee

rb2013 said:


> Just ordered this cable for it: Venom 3s C13 Powersnakes Shielded Power Cable - 1.75m
> 
> http://www.hideflifestyle.com/venom-3s-powersnakes-shielded-power-cable-1-75m.html
> 
> Such a fine unit deserves to be well fed.


 
  
 Yeah I'm running mine with a PS Audio AC-5 PC.
 Overkill?... Yeah probably, but what the heck!


----------



## rb2013

jamiee said:


> Yeah I'm running mine with a PS Audio AC-5 PC.
> Overkill?... Yeah probably, but what the heck!


 
 +1  Did it make a difference?


----------



## Jamiee

Couldn't tell you with the U12 as I was already using the AC5 with the U10 and just swapped it with the 12 when it arrived.
  
 That said, I haven't met a single piece of equipment yet that hasn't been improved with the use of a good quality PC.
 99% of my system is powered through PS Audio AC12's, 10's, or 5's.


----------



## rb2013

jamiee said:


> Couldn't tell you with the U12 as I was already using the AC5 with the U10 and just swapped it with the 12 when it arrived.
> 
> That said, I haven't met a single piece of equipment yet that hasn't been improved with the use of a good quality PC.
> 99% of my system is powered through PS Audio AC12's, 10's, or 5's.


 
 +1 My other Gustard was noticeably improved by an old CPCC model 11 pc I had laying around.  The Shunyata Venom 3 is quite a bit better.  It'll be interesting to see what changes it makes.


----------



## sandab

Have you guys tried the Highwire Powerwraps?  Snake oil or do they make any difference?


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Do you think the pinouts are the same on both the stock and Amgis trannys?  It [size=13.3333330154419px]appears so except sideways.[/size]  The Amgis is  115VAC on the top - 7VDC on the bottom.  Looking down neg on the left - pos on the right. The stock is looking down 115V on the left - but looks like 9V on the right.  Is that Neg to the left on the DC - the AC to the right?  Wondering if I might need a 9V version?
> 
> It looks like these might be better in this unit - both 9V http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/L01-6341/TE2245-ND/2137075
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/70041K/1295-1041-ND/3881432   The Amgis is $19 and the Talema is $22.
> ...


 
 18V Center Tap (9V-0V-9V) is the secondary voltage based on the pictures. The little metal can caps with the blue stripe on top are SMD, this can either be polymer or regular aluminum electrolytic, can't quite make out the markings on your picture. These have to be SMD not thru hole if you are replacing them.
  
 The unit in my pictures is not the U12  and the secondary voltage of the transformer is different.
  
 The ones you selected are 10VA, Gustard is using 15VA. The link below are the candidate units
  
 Before you buy, measure the sides of the Gustard unit. The ones in the link below are 60mm x 60mm
  
 http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?pv258=60&FV=19440081&k=15va+toroidal&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&stock=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
  
 Either the  Talema or Amgis in the link will do the job


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> 18V Center Tap (9V-0V-9V) is the secondary voltage based on the pictures. The little metal can caps with the blue stripe on top are SMD, this can either be polymer or regular aluminum electrolytic, can't quite make out the markings on your picture. These have to be SMD not thru hole if you are replacing them.
> 
> The unit in my pictures is not the U12  and the secondary voltage of the transformer is different.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the guidance.  It looks like the 115V pins on the stock are lined up to the left of the unit when viewed from the top and the model numbers on the top.  The Amgis looks like the 115V pins are on the *top*, again viewed from the top and the model numbers on the top.
  
 Wouldn't I align the 115V pins?  So mount the Amgis with the 115V pins to the left as well?
  
  
 It looks like Berkerly Design Audio Alpha (the statement $1800 USB interface) uses the same silver SMD cap with the half blue circle along with the XMOS chip.  I think I'll keep those.


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for the guidance.  It looks like the 115V pins on the stock are lined up to the left of the unit when viewed from the top and the model numbers on the top.  The Amgis looks like the 115V pins are on the *top*, again viewed from the top and the model numbers on the top.
> 
> Wouldn't I align the 115V pins?  So mount the Amgis with the 115V pins to the left as well?


 
  
 Post a picture of the underside of the board, it has to be a flat, straight on view. The important part is the layout of the output pins, the Amgis only goes in one way. The 115V (Primary side) has pins that are closer together.
  
 Amgis datasheet: http://www.amgistoroids.com/assets/files/L01%20Series%2050%2060%20Hz%20PC%20Mount%20Toroidal%20Transformers.pdf
  

 The distance between pins 2 and 3 is 0.1" or 2.54 mm closer together compared to the distance between pins 6 and 7


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Post a picture of the underside of the board, it has to be a flat, straight on view. The important part is the layout of the output pins, the Amgis only goes in one way. The 115V (Primary side) has pins that are closer together.
> 
> Amgis datasheet: http://www.amgistoroids.com/assets/files/L01%20Series%2050%2060%20Hz%20PC%20Mount%20Toroidal%20Transformers.pdf
> 
> ...


 
 Yes - it does appear the 115V pins would be to the left - measuring from the outside pins they are approx 44mm versus the ones near the edge to the right at approx 51mm -looking down.
  
 The outside case does appear to be 60mm x 60mm.
  


  
 Thanks!
  
 PS It looks like the stock has a center hole mount.  On the Amgis it look like an equiv M4 threaded screw 
  
 Since it looks like Digikey has both the Amgis and the Talema - which do you think is better?  The Talema is $5 more expensive.


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Yes - it does appear the 115V pins would be to the left - measuring from the outside pins they are approx 44mm versus the ones near the edge to the right at approx 51mm -looking down.
> 
> The outside case does appear to be 60mm x 60mm.
> 
> ...


 
 >>Yes - it does appear the 115V pins would be to the left - measuring from the outside pins they are approx 44mm versus the ones near the edge to the right at approx 51mm -looking down.
  
I suggest holding off, Gustard may be using an inverted pin setup to the standard layout (that is the Primary and secondaries are swapped).
  
 I have ordered the U12 which arrives in about 2 weeks. On the Amgis the closer pin set is the primary, it looks like the primary on the Gustard is the pin out that is spaced more widely apart.
  
 Tracing from the mains input socket is the safest option, see where the 115V input is going into, if it goes to the narrower pin set then you can replace it with the Amgis or Talema, otherwise this is a proprietary pinout.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> >>Yes - it does appear the 115V pins would be to the left - measuring from the outside pins they are approx 44mm versus the ones near the edge to the right at approx 51mm -looking down.
> 
> I suggest holding off, Gustard may be using an inverted pin setup to the standard layout (that is the Primary and secondaries are swapped).
> 
> ...


 
 OK I'll hold off.  Thanks for your help


----------



## btbluesky

Ordered one as well, I've been using the essence xonar spdif out from computer, would be interesting to compare.


----------



## rb2013

btbluesky said:


> Ordered one as well, I've been using the essence xonar spdif out from computer, would be interesting to compare.


 
 Great!  Do you know what processor chip the essence uses?


----------



## stjj89

Just got my Gustard U12 last night. Briefly listened to it using the default ASIO XMOS driver feeding it via  a 75 ohm Coaxial RCA cable to my Bifrost/Lyr stack. I actually could not pick out any distinct differences between this setup and the optical out on my desktop to my Bifrost. This might be because I'm not using the most revealing headphone around, my ZMF V1s (my HE-560's are out for a week), or maybe because I don't have sensitive-enough ears (I couldn't tell the difference between WASAPI (event) and Directsound on my Bifrost or my ODAC).

 I'm gonna wait till my HE-560 comes back and let my U12 burn in for a bit before passing any judgement. More impressions soon!


----------



## muterecords71

Hi there,
 one of the owner could please post the size of the Gustard U12 (L x H x P) ?
 I have a small slot between the NAS and the DAC Musical Fidelity...
 Thank you in advance


----------



## rb2013

muterecords71 said:


> Hi there,
> one of the owner could please post the size of the Gustard U12 (L x H x P) ?
> I have a small slot between the NAS and the DAC Musical Fidelity...
> Thank you in advance


 
 L 6 1/2" x H 2" x D 4 3/4"


----------



## rb2013

stjj89 said:


> Just got my Gustard U12 last night. Briefly listened to it using the default ASIO XMOS driver feeding it via  a 75 ohm Coaxial RCA cable to my Bifrost/Lyr stack. I actually could not pick out any distinct differences between this setup and the optical out on my desktop to my Bifrost. This might be because I'm not using the most revealing headphone around, my ZMF V1s (my HE-560's are out for a week), or maybe because I don't have sensitive-enough ears (I couldn't tell the difference between WASAPI (event) and Directsound on my Bifrost or my ODAC).
> 
> I'm gonna wait till my HE-560 comes back and let my U12 burn in for a bit before passing any judgement. More impressions soon!


 
 Thanks for the update.  In all systems it may not always be an improvement.  I know in both of mine it certainly has been.
  
 Just got the Shunyata Venom 3s power chord  - will give it a try tonight on the Gustard in my main system.


----------



## stjj89

I'm considering letting my Gustard U12 go, and have put up a interest check on the For Sale/Trade forum here:
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/740647/ic-gustard-u12-usb-to-spdif-interface
  
 If anyone is interested in getting their hands on this without having to deal with shipping from China, let me know!


----------



## Chodi

stjj89 said:


> I'm considering letting my Gustard U12 go, and have put up a interest check on the For Sale/Trade forum here:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/740647/ic-gustard-u12-usb-to-spdif-interface
> 
> If anyone is interested in getting their hands on this without having to deal with shipping from China, let me know!


 
 The Gustard takes a few days for the clocks to settle down. You might wnat to leave it on an burn in a few days before jumping ship. It really changes a lot in a few days. You also might want to try a full version of that Thesycon driver. The one supplied is really basic.


----------



## Alexsander

Very interesting devicу this Gustard U12:
  
_"Newest XMOS chip and uses 48MHz oscillator to asynchronous reclock usb audio data to I2S line, old XMOS uses only 13Mhz oscillator, over 4x better jitter rejection theoretically"_
Display, PSU inside, AES/EBU, i2s , opt and coax and Built-in smart switch, plug in USB automatically!!!
  
But Digital Transformer Pulse PE-65612NL (limits 7 mbps 96kHz)!!!  it is necessary remove and istall Murata DA101C!!!
  
  
P.S.
*Full Technical Parameters:*
  
_Laser marking, never fade
Built-in smart switch, plug in USB automatically_
_Two 0.1PPM precision crystal 45.1584M 49.1520M_
_International voltage AC115V-230V, the need to manually adjust_
_Rigorous design, reasonable layout, elegant lines, solid materials.
 Figures show that a mesh understand. DSD support 128, PCM supports 384K
 Aluminum chassis, the drawing process, the body all black, black and silver optional panel
 XMOS - U8 chip, support 32BIT / 500MIPS digital signal processing unit, the inside has eight cores.
 Interface from left to right are: power input AES / EBU output coaxial output IIS output optical output USB input_
_Machine size (not including protruding parts): *Width 160mm × 50mm × depth 120mm high*_
_Package Size: Width 225mm * 80mm * Deep 190mm high_
_Weight: Net Weight *1KG*, including packaging 1.3KG_
 
*Features:*
_Increase the screen display, the sampling rate at a glance
Use XMOS programs to support 32B 384khz asynchronous 2.0 (USB recommended that ASIO output)
Using an independent power supply. Built-in sealing ring cattle, multiple sets of multi-level regulation. About the importance of independent power, I believe we all know.
Optimize the design of the audio clock circuit using 0.1PPM precision active crystal to provide a more perfect clock signal to digital audio. Provided for by the two crystals were 44.1 / 88.2 / 176.4 / 352.8Khz and 48/96/192 / 384Khz series rate signal only after the selected clock rate selected work, work another one audio clock stop, put an end to the mutual interference may bring work simultaneously when the two clocks.
A total of four kinds of output: Coaxial (RCA), optical fiber, AES / EBU, IIS (HDMI port)
Coaxial fiber AES / EBU output formats IEC60958 and AES3-r2009 standard limits the maximum support 24Bit / 192kHz; IIS can transmit 32B 384K
*Smart switch, USB has a current interface to boot. Interface with the computer switch and switch machine (computer to be set off USB power failure), or unplug the USB cable directly to the shutdown.*_
 
_Description
Gustard U12 digital interface XMOS program complete independent linear power interface 0.1PPM crystal support 32B 384K

U12 uses the company used in professional audio field XMOS latest chip U8, inside there are eight cores, with powerful multi-core multi-thread processing capability, is the industry's very good USB Audio Class 2.0 digital audio solutions._


----------



## Alexsander

Maybe it is worth replacing my current  setup?:
  
 using modding Leaf Audio XMOS 384K/32bit PCM5102 DAC (Xmos version 8L6C5 GT1325L1) as usb converter USb-to-SPDIF with external power TeraDak U9VA Linear Low noise Power Supply + Power Supply A&B Cardas pure copper DC cable 1.5ft Comp: TinyMPD.*XMOS 384K/32bit PCM5102 DAC*
_(My upgrade this device:_
_At first remove digital transformer Pulse PE-65612NL (limits 7 mbps 96kHz)->Murata DA101C, Second remove low quallity RCA jack -> Neutrik NF-2D-2, wire and silver solder is AudioQuest)_
 http://photo.qip.ru/users/audioquest/200709111/213720907/#mainImageLink
  
 whether will give the best sound Gustard U12?


----------



## rb2013

alexsander said:


> Maybe it is worth replacing my current  setup?:
> 
> using modding Leaf Audio XMOS 384K/32bit PCM5102 DAC (Xmos version 8L6C5 GT1325L1) as usb converter USb-to-SPDIF with external power [COLOR=333333]TeraDak U9VA Linear Low noise Power Supply + Power Supply A&B Cardas pure copper DC cable 1.5ft Comp: TinyMPD.[/COLOR]*XMOS 384K/32bit PCM5102 DAC*
> _([COLOR=333333]My upgrade this device:[/COLOR]_
> ...


It looks like the power supply and filtering is better in the Gustard U12. The more I'm reading alot about the issues of ps ripple on digital clocks, good ps regulation and filtering a particular power static caused by fast alternating power devices like motors (even small ones like cpu, pc ps, video cards use for cooling) and switching power supplies (the worst offends).

Edit typos


----------



## stjj89

chodi said:


> The Gustard takes a few days for the clocks to settle down. You might wnat to leave it on an burn in a few days before jumping ship. It really changes a lot in a few days. You also might want to try a full version of that Thesycon driver. The one supplied is really basic.


 
  
 Thanks for the advice! I let it burn in for about 2 days by playing music using the ASIO driver through it and to my DAC, but haven't noticed big differences. I am very interesting in hearing how the Thesycon driver sounds like though. However, when I initially tried installing it, setup.exe would keep failing (and telling me to re-run the setup). The specific error is 
  
 ERROR: Pre-installation of 'C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIOks.inf' failed.
 Please run setup again!
  
 Luckit WaveIO Drivers (v2.23.0).exe would not recognize my device and keep telling me to plug it in (even though it already is). Any advice on how to get the installation to work?


----------



## Wynnytsky

Is Alexsander correct about there being a 96khz sample rate limit?
  
 Has anyone tried Thesycon v1.6.1 on the U12?  If it works then stjj89 could use those instead of Chodi's drivers.
  
 Jamiee - what did you think of the jump from U10 to U12?
  
 I finally got a U12 and I had both the U10 and U12 plugged into seperate USB ports.  To A/B I would switch output devices in JRiver and move the AES cable between units.  The new 2.23 drivers (not Thesycon) see the U10 and U12, though ASIO was only avail for the U12.  The first minutes were pretty bad for the U12.  My broken in U10 sounds very relaxed in comparison to the U12.  Even though the new ASIO driver is not from Thesycon, it still sounds better than WASAPI, though I recall the ASIO/WASAPI performance gap being larger on the U10.
  
 It's premature for me to report my findings because mine needs more break in time, but this is what I've heard so far:
 U10 is all about scale -- bigger than life concert imaging like maggies or lascalas -- it's what set the Gustard apart from other products and why I liked it so much.  Scaled/magnified imaging (ex: Gustard U10) and focused/pinched imaging (ex: AudioPhilleo) are opposites of each other (I'm certain there is an optical lens analogy to be made here).  While either may be appealing to the ear, reality is somewhere in the middle.  I found Musiland and Amanero to be more honest in that respect.  The U12 has taken a significant step toward focus and I heard a texture in the upper vocals that my U10 hadn't revealed.  I really thought the U12 was only adding an LED display but there is definitely an audible change and I'm eager to hear where my U12 is going as it breaks in.


----------



## genclaymore

stjj89 said:


> Thanks for the advice! I let it burn in for about 2 days by playing music using the ASIO driver through it and to my DAC, but haven't noticed big differences. I am very interesting in hearing how the Thesycon driver sounds like though. However, when I initially tried installing it, setup.exe would keep failing (and telling me to re-run the setup). The specific error is
> 
> ERROR: Pre-installation of 'C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIOks.inf' failed.
> Please run setup again!
> ...


 

 You could do manually edit the ini with the info of your device to make it install. But you might have to do it with driver signature disable.


----------



## sandab

alexsander said:


> _"Newest XMOS chip and uses 48MHz oscillator to asynchronous reclock usb audio data to I2S line, old XMOS uses only 13Mhz oscillator, over 4x better jitter rejection theoretically"_
> Display, PSU inside, AES/EBU, i2s , opt and coax and Built-in smart switch, plug in USB automatically!!!


 
 This is only on the source clock though, and scaling down a higher frequency clock with a divider or rotating shift register doesn't necessarily produce a reduction in jitter.  In fact, this scaling can easily add jitter of its own, especially if using CMOS instead of a current-mode logic like ECL or such.  But in the grand scheme of things the source clock is hardly a problem; the real source of jitter is noise on the transmission line, reflections, nonlinear phase, etc, that results in jitter on the receive side.  Differential signaling (IIS, AES3) is clearly of potential benefit here over single-ended coax, but it's not immune.  How many ps of jitter there is is kind of unimportant.  (FemtoClock BTW is a trademark for a series of integrated clock generators and not really about real-world measured performance in a home or office environment.)


----------



## rb2013

sandab said:


> This is only on the source clock though, and scaling down a higher frequency clock with a divider or rotating shift register doesn't necessarily produce a reduction in jitter.  In fact, this scaling can easily add jitter of its own, especially if using CMOS instead of a current-mode logic like ECL or such.  But in the grand scheme of things the source clock is hardly a problem; the real source of jitter is noise on the transmission line, reflections, nonlinear phase, etc, that results in jitter on the receive side.  Differential signaling (IIS, AES3) is clearly of potential benefit here over single-ended coax, but it's not immune.  How many ps of jitter there is is kind of unimportant.  (FemtoClock BTW is a trademark for a series of integrated clock generators and not really about real-world measured performance in a home or office environment.)


See my comments on the effect on clocking by power supply ripple and noise. These clocks may test well in electricly pure conditions, this isn't real world. There is a tremdeous amount of grunge in our nieghborhood power system. Like when the neighbor is using his power saw, you hear a whizzing sound on your radio. That's just one source of this contamination, digital devices are notorious for feeding into the grid this form of noise. Digital clocks depend on a very pure power source. Any power irregulatory or noise cause micro mistimings that produce 'jitter'. That's why that name was coined for one of digitals's distortions. But there are others - liked the mentioned phase shift issues, digital 'echoing' or reflections. The engineers at Audio Sensibility attest that the optimal length of a rca spdif cable is 1.5m, this length minimizes digital reflections. But there are a host of others - like dynamic impedence misalignments between cable and socket from the ideal 75ohms.


----------



## rb2013

stjj89 said:


> Thanks for the advice! I let it burn in for about 2 days by playing music using the ASIO driver through it and to my DAC, but haven't noticed big differences. I am very interesting in hearing how the Thesycon driver sounds like though. However, when I initially tried installing it, setup.exe would keep failing (and telling me to re-run the setup). The specific error is
> 
> ERROR: Pre-installation of 'C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIOks.inf' failed.
> 
> ...


Try an uninstall of any previous ASIO programs. Then reinstall the WaveIO. It can conflict with other ASIOs.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> Is Alexsander correct about there being a 96khz sample rate limit?
> 
> Has anyone tried Thesycon v1.6.1 on the U12?  If it works then stjj89 could use those instead of Chodi's drivers.
> 
> ...


I've been running 192k for weeks without issue - that's 24/7. Not a single error message, after trillions on bits sent and received on the U12, not one hiccup, unlock, or freeze.

Thanks Chodi! That Tspy tool is awesome - tracks everthing in real time. 

Swapping the blue Phillips caps for better Pani FCs helped to smooth things out a bit. Better ripple filtering.


----------



## sandab

Oh yeah, you have to have clean AC.  I assumed that was taken care of already.  People always go on about how noisy it is, but when I put a transformer on it here and scoped it to check the spectrum, it looked pretty clean to me.  With my cheap Furman PST8D it looks flawless - no special snake oil required, but taking a look with a scope with spectrum view is the only way to know.


----------



## rb2013

sandab said:


> Oh yeah, you have to have clean AC.  I assumed that was taken care of already.  People always go on about how noisy it is, but when I put a transformer on it here and scoped it to check the spectrum, it looked pretty clean to me.  With my cheap Furman PST8D it looks flawless - no special snake oil required, but taking a look with a scope with spectrum view is the only way to know.


 
 I wouldn't assume to much.  Not here - even worse the voltage itself would fluctuate during the day.  I once had a Monster power conditioner on my HT system.  Would watch the voltage change constantly.  But that's not what I'm talking about here - it's the noise generated by your pc itself.  Fans, monitors, pc ps, also those switching ps wall warts we all have plugged in all over.  Not to mention the intermittent grunge poduced by the nieghbor's vacumm cleaner, power saws, etc...
  
 Some interesting stuff:
  
 *A typical power supply of notebook PC*
*Sources of disturbances (ripple & noise) inside a computer:*

 1. Backlight of computer monitors: The necessary high voltage of approx. 900 V for LCD/TFT monitors is generated by inverters which produce ripple and noise.

2. Hard disks (internal + external): The actuators of the recording/reading heads produce interference voltage with each positioning or stop move.
3. Clock generators and chips like e.g. the CPU, northbridge, RAM or graphics adapter cause disturbances and noise.
4. Power supplies of notebooks and desktop PCs are not designed for lowest interference voltage and noise, since this is extra costs, not necessarily needed.

 5. DC/DC converter producing up to 100mV ripple and noise.
 and so on...

100mHz digital scope, one vertical square are *10mV - this shows 50 - 60mV*
  
  
*Interference voltage and noise of USB power from a computer. 
 Even the use of a battery-powered notebook brings little help.*
A typical picture of 5 Volt USB power with 40 mV ripple & noise from a desktop PC without running access of the hard disk.
  

100mHz digital scope, one vertical square is *10mV - this shows 40 - 50mV*
  

*A typical picture of 5 Volt USB power from a desktop PC with running access of the hard disk. *350mHz Analogscope, one vertical square is *10mV - this shows 60 - 90mV *


----------



## rb2013

n CD players this is a particularly troublesome issue - the servo motors used to align the laser head to the irregular CD pit 'groove'.  Those servo motors, unless very carefully designed feed this grunge back through the ps to the clocks and dac portion of the CD player.
  
 While digitalized music recordings fixed a host of issues related to analog (like LP surface noise, tangential tracking issues, etc...)  They introduced a whole host of new issues, that we're finally getting around to addressing.  The early CD players were horrible - I had a few.  Rather then the marketed 'perfect sound', they were bleached, etchy, glaring, lacking any real life.  I way preferred my analog system.  But today well done digital can be really good.  Unfortunately, with the movement away from R2R dacs to the newer cheaper to produce designs we've taken a step backwards. Unless the audio engineers are very careful about their designs.  They have plenty of boom/sizzle - but many lack a lifelike tonal richness. 
  
 Here is a good read on jitter:
  
 http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/jitter1_e.html
  
 For DACs it's the issues regarding delta-sigma and multi-bit dac designs vs the older R2R.
  
 http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
  
 http://funwithaudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/today-in-electronics-everything-is-made.html


----------



## sandab

rb2013 said:


> *Interference voltage and noise of USB power from a computer.
> Even the use of a battery-powered notebook brings little help.*
> A typical picture of 5 Volt USB power with 40 mV ripple & noise from a desktop PC without running access of the hard disk.
> 
> ...


 
 Interesting.  I just got one of these - http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=USB-TERMvirtualkey58150000virtualkey992-USB-TERM - to scope the +5V out from my MacBook Pro with different cables of different length, to see what goes on and to see what exactly the Wyrd does and how well it cleans it up.  I'll be checking it open (floating) and with 220k, 2.2k, and 5V/500mA = 10ohm loads for each cable.  Both spectrally and with a DMM for voltage.  My hypothesis is that a "good" audio-grade USB cable has relatively high impedance in the +5V/gnd and the voltage will drop under load, making it unsuitable for powering, but fine for a high-Z reference input (like XMOS parts seem to want it for) - and, so, intrinsically choked.  In general, if the noise goes down with load without affecting the voltage too badly, shunting may be an option.  I may also add noise generation to see what impact it really has and what's audible.
  
 This of course is completely different from AC noise.  Also, a computer could be extremely noisy internally yet have a clean USB out, if designed to that end.


----------



## rb2013

sandab said:


> Interesting.  I just got one of these - http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=USB-TERMvirtualkey58150000virtualkey992-USB-TERM - to scope the +5V out from my MacBook Pro with different cables of different length, to see what goes on and to see what exactly the Wyrd does and how well it cleans it up.  I'll be checking it open (floating) and with 220k, 2.2k, and 5V/500mA = 10ohm loads for each cable.  Both spectrally and with a DMM for voltage.  My hypothesis is that a "good" audio-grade USB cable has relatively high impedance in the +5V/gnd and the voltage will drop under load, making it unsuitable for powering, but fine for a high-Z reference input (like XMOS parts seem to want it for) - and, so, intrinsically choked.  In general, if the noise goes down with load without affecting the voltage too badly, shunting may be an option.  I may also add noise generation to see what impact it really has and what's audible.
> 
> This of course is completely different from AC noise.  Also, a computer could be extremely noisy internally yet have a clean USB out, if designed to that end.


 
 That should be interesting.  Will you try different lengths as well? Say 1m vs 1.5 m, etc...
  
 I use these on my dedicated pc media servers - Zen 400 pc ps.
  
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817104035
  
 I tried this SOtM tX-UBS PCI card - but had issues with the pc recognizing it.  Sometimes it would, sometimes it wouldn't.
  
 http://www.sotm.sonore.us/SOtM3.html


----------



## sandab

rb2013 said:


> That should be interesting.  Will you try different lengths as well? Say 1m vs 1.5 m, etc...


 
 I'll use the random assortment of cables I have, plus a dedicated (inexpensive) Ghent Audio U01 cable.  The first step is to see if there's any difference at all, or if they all just transparently pass on whatever is in the computer.  At some point I'll probably buy a better cable, like an AQ Carbon or something.  But if a $3 cable and a $30 one produce exactly the same I might not be inclined to try a $300 one.


----------



## rb2013

sandab said:


> I'll use the random assortment of cables I have, plus a dedicated (inexpensive) Ghent Audio U01 cable.  The first step is to see if there's any difference at all, or if they all just transparently pass on whatever is in the computer.  At some point I'll probably buy a better cable, like an AQ Carbon or something.  But if a $3 cable and a $30 one produce exactly the same I might not be inclined to try a $300 one.


I've heard differences in each cable I've tried. The worst the Cardas Clear (blue), the best the Synergistic Research Tesla USB.


----------



## Jamiee

+1
  
 I've run the gamut of WireWorld USB cables, Blueberry Hill Audio cables, Belken Cables, plus a smattering of various others for good measure...  I finally settled on the Light Harmonic Lightspeed (split version) as my absolute favorite.  It took well over 200hrs to fully break in, but the wait was worth it!
  
 Funny enough one of my favorite all-around cables is the Belken Gold Series USB.  It's easily one of the cheapest at around $15 (or less) for 6ft. length but it has this ability to compete with or even beat cables I've heard at up to 20x it's price.
  
 While the Gold does a lot of things reasonably well, the Lightspeed is on a different level (it should be considering the cost difference!).
 The Lightspeed is extremely neutral (almost to a fault) but never falls off the edge.  It is the type of cable that can grow with ones system.  The better the front-end electronics get, the better the cable gets.
 It's not a limiting factor in any way and is the only cable I've heard to date - in my system - that doesn't sound like it imparts a particular sound signature.
  
 I also really enjoyed the the Blueberry Hill Figaro USB cable.  This is a cable that tonally shares a lot with the Light Harmonic Lightspeed but comes across with a very slightly warmer presentation overall.  It's too bad that I've had timing related errors with this particular cable that have manifested in the occasional pop & crackle during playback.  I still have the cable and will at some point need to re-visit it as I'd like to see if I can solve the timing issue. It is after all a very good sounding cable.


----------



## rb2013

jamiee said:


> +1
> 
> I've run the gamut of WireWorld USB cables, Blueberry Hill Audio cables, Belken Cables, plus a smattering of various others for good measure...  I finally settled on the Light Harmonic Lightspeed (split version) as my absolute favorite.  It took well over 200hrs to fully break in, but the wait was worth it!
> 
> ...


 
 +1  I'll have to try the Lightspeed. I also have a Silnote Poseidon on my other system - it's very good.
  
 I've been tempted to try the Chord USB SilverPlus - it is very reasonably priced and has received great reviews in the UK hifi mags.
  
Hi-fi News OUTSTANDING PRODUCT June 2013 - Chord USB SilverPlus


> SUPER STEREO
> 
> In the event, the overwhelmingly positive reaction of our panel (on three separate occasions) put SilverPlus top-of-the heap in the sanely-priced category. This is an extremely open-sounding cable – fresh, effusive and bubbling with detail without sounding forced, bright or in-your-face. The atmosphere of The Eagles’ live ‘Hotel California’ was extremely realistic. ‘Did you hear that guy whistling way back there?’, remarked one listener admiringly.
> 
> Chord’s cable did the very same thing with Oscar Peterson’s trio, creating a huge image without blowing the perspective of the piano, percussion and strings out of proportion.  In tonal balance, SilverPlus is a match for Kimber’s Cu but brings with it a greater sense of spaciousness and transparency. Percussion has fantastic sparkle, a vivid life without a hint of brashness. And The Beatles’ remasters?  No longer a ‘period’ piece, this sounded like it was recorded yesterday."


 
  
  
 From Hi-fi News OUTSTANDING PRODUCT July 2014 - Chord Signature USB Tuned ARAY review:


> Vocals had a
> wonderfully breathy quality too, but
> was this necessarily the best ‘in the
> round’ USB cable
> ...


 
http://www.chord.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/HFN_USB-Cable-GT_Chord-Co.pdf
  
  
 http://www.thecableco.com/Product/Silver-Plus-USB
  
 http://www.chord.co.uk/about-the-chord-company/awards/
  
 http://www.whathifi.com/forum/computer-based-media/chord-usb-silverplus


----------



## Padawan38

Hello

I'm very interested into the U12 but eBay resellers say Linux is not taken in charge.
I plan to use Daphile or Vortexbox or other Linux based OS as player ,
Does anyone has any experience Regarding this point ?

Thank you very much
Rgds


----------



## rb2013

padawan38 said:


> Hello
> 
> I'm very interested into the U12 but eBay resellers say Linux is not taken in charge.
> I plan to use Daphile or Vortexbox or other Linux based OS as player ,
> ...


 
 This should answer your question - it looks like yes.  I'm not a Linux user so no expert.
  


> From mid-2010 on both OSX and Linux supports USB audio class 2 natively.
> If the DAC is USB audio class 2 compliant it will play up to 32/384 on these systems without the need to install additional drivers.


 
http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/USB_DAC_Async.htm
  


> Native DSD is only currently available on Windows platforms using the foobar SACD plugin and the Thesycon (ASIO) driver. For DSD playback on other platforms (OSX, iDevice, Linux, Android..) please use DoP (DSD over PCM).


 
http://www.xcore.com/questions/2673/how-setup-native-dsd-playback-mfa-board


----------



## ryssen

Got my U12 today,but I get a "jittery" timefault sound with pops,trumphets sound like they had wahwa pedals.
 I used the drivers that came on the cd.
 Whats wrong?


----------



## Wynnytsky

Ryssen:
  
 I used the CD as well, and I'm using ASIO.  Download Deferred-Procedure-Call Latency Checker v1.3 (dpclat.exe) to confirm your well into the green.
 http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/AudioTools/TroubleShooting.htm
  
 Before messing with your player's software, try a different USB cable.  I used to get some messed up issues using a silver usb cable from lavricable, and when I tried it with the Gustard U10 it was way worse -- a steady tick! tick! tick!.  I hear 1.5 meters is supposed to be the ideal length.
  
 Determine which methods exhibit the jitter: DS,KS,ASIO,WASAPI
 Let us know your player and we can start comparing parameters (buffer, bit depth, dsp plugins, etc)
  

 Chodi is using HQPlayer and says it's the best for DSD playback
 http://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html
 (avail on linux)
 I wish someone could explain why DSD files sound so good when played back with VLC (a video player!) into my PCM DAC.  I tried JRiver 19 with a Lampizator 5 [set to it's DSD input] and I thought it sounded worse than playing a FLAC version of the same track.  I still download SACDs like there's no tomorrow, but I'm not upgrading my DAC because I *presume* Dirac performs it's magic in a PCM domain.


----------



## ryssen

"Determine which methods exhibit the jitter: DS,KS,ASIO,WASAPI"
  
 They are all the same about 4-600us with some tops of 1700us.
 I tried different USB cables.
 My player is JR mediacenter but tried foobar as well it´s all the same
 tried different buffer setting to,I still get those pops and glitches.....


----------



## Chodi

ryssen said:


> "Determine which methods exhibit the jitter: DS,KS,ASIO,WASAPI"
> 
> They are all the same about 4-600us with some tops of 1700us.
> I tried different USB cables.
> ...


 
 If you want help you are going to have to be specific about what dac you are using and information about the rest of your system. We would also need information about your computer setup. The problems you describe are usually resource related. More often computer related problems. Are you only playing redbook or are you trying to play dsd? Are you doing any upsampling or conversion on the fly? We need to know much more to really help.


----------



## Wynnytsky

wow those numbers are scary
 What's your processor utilization during playback?
 My i7 gives me an absolute maximum of 177us during 16/44 playback in JRiver20 and 227us during 24/192
 That's with the CPU fluctuating between 0% to 2% with me remoted in via logmein from work.
  
 And does your DAC have it's own USB input?  No pops with that?


----------



## rb2013

ryssen said:


> "Determine which methods exhibit the jitter: DS,KS,ASIO,WASAPI"
> 
> They are all the same about 4-600us with some tops of 1700us.
> I tried different USB cables.
> ...


Try increasing your buffer size. I use 7800ms in Foobar.

Be sure you are using a USB 2.0 socket on your PC, on mine some are 2.0 some are 1.0. What type of pc are you using?
Be sure to copy the ASIO dll to the Foobar components directory from the Thesycon directory.
Have you tried the WaveIO ASIO drivers?
Also uninstall all other USB and/or ASIO drivers and reinstall the Gustard drivers. You may be getting some driver conflicts.

Good luck!


----------



## rb2013

Ordered a Chord USB SilverPlus 1.5m from cable company. $125 - can't beat that. Will see how it compares to the SR Tesla.


----------



## Jamiee

rb2013 said:


> Ordered a Chord USB SilverPlus 1.5m from cable company. $125 - can't beat that. Will see how it compares to the SR Tesla.


 
  
 Just ordered the same cable from usedcables.com for $89.00 + $14.50 Shipping to Canada.
 Nice thing is that it won't need much break-in time considering it's a previously used cable, so it'll be a fairly quick comparison to the LightSpeed.


----------



## Wynnytsky

That would be my cable of choice as well once I'm compelled to upgrade my Belkin gold, which is $5 used (broken in!)
 The best USB cable I've heard yet would be from Whiplash, but his prices are up there and he hasn't responded to my inquiry (twice).


----------



## rb2013

jamiee said:


> Just ordered the same cable from usedcables.com for $89.00 + $14.50 Shipping to Canada.
> Nice thing is that it won't need much break-in time considering it's a previously used cable, so it'll be a fairly quick comparison to the LightSpeed.


 
 Good get!  If this one is my new best - I'll look to get another from usedcables.co as well.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> That would be my cable of choice as well once I'm compelled to upgrade my Belkin gold, which is $5 used (broken in!)
> The best USB cable I've heard yet would be from Whiplash, but his prices are up there and he hasn't responded to my inquiry (twice).


 
 I had the same problem when trying to get a Stephan Audi Arts Endorphin for my HD800s.  When he finally did he told he had a 10 month backlog - and I'd have to pay upfront to get in line.  Got the Moon Black Dragon V2 instead and have been really happy with it - less then half the cost.
  
 Which Whiplash?  The Twag?


----------



## Wynnytsky

it was the Polestar, but the Axis is supposed to be their best
  
 And the best coax I've heard was an older Cardas ($50 used), which had a nice lead over both flavors of bluejeancables.
 Even better than that was the impractically stiff FIM/CRL
 http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=129407.0
  
 I'm staying with my bluejeancables AES which they cut exactly to length at a price a non-audiophile would approve of.  I have enough stuff that will make a non-audiophile give me the "your so stupid" face when told the price.
  
  
 Why hasn't ANYONE commented on the difference between the U10 and U12?
 Is anyone using it to feed a DSD DAC?


----------



## ryssen

I am using a Nadja crossover http://www.waf-audio.com/products.php?pos=1&sub=1&lang=en
with 3 diy dac´s after ES9023 I was before using a http://luckit.biz/ Wave IO with out no problem at all.
I use an ACER 7745G laptop the CPU is at between 10-20%,I tried both driver verision the one that is on the CD works "best"
Tried all buffert setting on JR media.
Cant think of any more?


----------



## Jamiee

rb2013 said:


> I had the same problem when trying to get a Stephan Audi Arts Endorphin for my HD800s.  When he finally did he told he had a 10 month backlog - and I'd have to pay upfront to get in line.  Got the Moon Black Dragon V2 instead and have been really happy with it - less then half the cost.
> 
> Which Whiplash?  The Twag?


 
 I'm using the Stephan Audio Art Endorphin on my HD800.  Fantastic sounding cable! 
 It took about three weeks from the time I placed the order to when I received it.
 Also ordered some XLR interconnects and a power cord to match.  Its expensive stuff for sure, but you kinda get what you pay for.


----------



## Wynnytsky

my suspicion was with your computer and not the U12, but that should be confirmed before you start messing with your computer.  I would install the U12 on another PC to confirm it isn't the U12.
  
 If it's only a problem with the Acer you should start by going direct from the U12 to the DAC (bypass Nadja)
  
 If the problem persists then "disable all" in msconfig.exe startup, and reboot
 if that fixes it then you have to incrementally enable each one to find out the offending startup process.
  
 I suppose you can try safe mode next, though I don't know if the U12 can operate in safe mode
  
 If the problem persists then become a software nazi and uninstall "unfamiliars" with extreme prejudice.
 Start by getting rid of any antivirus products (unless it's MS Security Essentials)
 Check task scheduler and browser extensions/add-ins
 Use extreme prejudice until you see the DPC lat checker stay in the green.
  
 In the BIOS you can disable your integrated audio chipset to be sure it isn't somehow colliding with Gustard
  
 If you've ever installed LogMeIn you should try disabling it's mirror driver


----------



## ryssen

So far Ivé bypassed Nadja still the same through the DAC,"bypassed" all my autostart programs,inkl virusprogram.
 I havent had the chance to try another computer but I have Linux ubuntu on this one so I gave it a try but still it was even worse..even tried flac vs. Aiff files.
 Btw I feel like it´s a "gray shadow" on the music,tomorrow I will compare with my WaveIO..


----------



## rb2013

jamiee said:


> I'm using the Stephan Audio Art Endorphin on my HD800.  Fantastic sounding cable!
> It took about three weeks from the time I placed the order to when I received it.
> Also ordered some XLR interconnects and a power cord to match.  Its expensive stuff for sure, but you kinda get what you pay for.


 
 How long ago was that?  I guess his 'wait list' has shortened quite a bit.  I would give it a try - but I've been listening more and more to my Maggie 1.6 QRs, especially since I recapped my Amp with Mundorf Silver/Gold and Silver/Gold/Oil caps.  Oh how sweet it is!
  
 I really do love the Moon's  - would have sold my HD800s without them.  Just a bit to much bite in the treble.  The Moon's fixed that and more, much more.  Had the Richard Warren cable before and it was very good.  It failed after a few yrs - went back to stock - what disappointment.  The Moon is better then the Warren and cheaper.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> it was the Polestar, but the Axis is supposed to be their best


 
 I had the Locus Design Polestar a few years back - I liked the Silnote Poseidon better so I sold it.


----------



## Jamiee

rb2013 said:


> How long ago was that?  I guess his 'wait list' has shortened quite a bit.  I would give it a try - but I've been listening more and more to my Maggie 1.6 QRs, especially since I recapped my Amp with Mundorf Silver/Gold and Silver/Gold/Oil caps.  Oh how sweet it is!
> 
> I really do love the Moon's  - would have sold my HD800s without them.  Just a bit to much bite in the treble.  The Moon's fixed that and more, much more.  Had the Richard Warren cable before and it was very good.  It failed after a few yrs - went back to stock - what disappointment.  The Moon is better then the Warren and cheaper.


 

 Oh it was a while ago... pretty close to two years back now.
 I have my HD800 plugged into an SPL Phonitor 2730B with Burson OPAMP's installed. One significant improvement was the addition of Stillpoints footers under the the amp.
 Prior to that I was thinking of modding my 800's to even out the top end, but not now.  The Stillpoints seem to help a lot with that on their own.
  
 As much as I like my LCD-3's, I tend to more often turn to the HD800 setup. 
 Like you though, the vast majority of my listening is on my stereo speaker setup.


----------



## stjj89

stjj89 said:


> I'm considering letting my Gustard U12 go, and have put up a interest check on the For Sale/Trade forum here:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/740647/ic-gustard-u12-usb-to-spdif-interface
> 
> If anyone is interested in getting their hands on this without having to deal with shipping from China, let me know!


 
  
 Last call on the Gustard before I return it!


----------



## Alexsander

Digital transformer has a great influence on a sound, the frequency is higher -> the more obviously!

 Murata using for cd players, DAC, so to replace PE65612, PE85812, DV709 and another old the pulse transformer have direct influence.
 Murata DA 101C is completely compatible with 192K a digital audiosignal
 Pulse PE65612-will work, a question correctly or not....
 For an example CD-player Burmester
 http://photo.qip.ru/users/audioquest/200712407/214008321/#mainImageLink
  
 M-2Tech:
 http://photo.qip.ru/users/audioquest/200712407/214008316/#mainImageLink
 http://photo.qip.ru/users/audioquest/200712407/214008314/#mainImageLink
  
 bel canto:
 http://photo.qip.ru/users/audioquest/200712407/214008308/#mainImageLink
 http://photo.qip.ru/users/audioquest/200712407/214008306/#mainImageLink


----------



## rb2013

alexsander said:


> Digital transformer has a great influence on a sound, the frequency is higher -> the more obviously!
> 
> Murata using for cd players, DAC, so to replace PE65612, PE85812, DV709 and another old the pulse transformer have direct influence.
> Murata DA 101C is completely compatible with 192K a digital audiosignal
> ...


 
 My U12 with the PE65612NL plays 192K flawlessly
  
 Interesting at Digikey the price of the Pulse PE65612-NL is twice as expensive as the Murata DA 101C
  
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/PE-65612NL/553-1580-5-ND/1812213
  
 http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/transformers/audio-transformers/786564?k=Murata%20DA%20101C
  
 From their datasheets it appears the common mode rejection is better on the Pulse at 70dB at .01MHz vs 52dB for the Murata.
  
 It also shows the operating transmission rate for the Pulse at 1-7 Mbps -way over kill for 192K (funny Murata doesn't report theirs).
  
 The very good Musiland Monitor 03 USD uses the Pulse as well.


----------



## Wynnytsky

The U10 uses two of those 65612NL chips as well
 So I can't credit this transformer for the added focus I'm hearing in the U12
  


rb2013 said:


> My U12 with the PE65612NL plays 192K flawlessly


----------



## sandab

rb2013 said:


> It also shows the operating transmission rate for the Pulse at 1-7 Mbps -way over kill for 192K (funny Murata doesn't report theirs).


 
 It is?  I would think it's way low, unless they mean data transmission using a 2x clock (dual phase).  AES3/SPDIF runs at 3Mbps for baseline 48k/24 with two samples per frame.  But it uses a biphase clock (Manchester coding) so it actually clocks the wire at 6MHz.  96k is twice this, 192k four times, and 384/24 8x; so you're looking at a 48MHz clock for 384/24.  This is why there's a 48MHz crystal on the board.
  
 Edit: 6MHz plus change due to framing overhead (preambles and such).


----------



## rb2013

sandab said:


> It is?  I would think it's way low, unless they mean data transmission using a 2x clock (dual phase).  AES3/SPDIF runs at 3Mbps for baseline 48k/24 with two samples per frame.  But it uses a biphase clock (Manchester coding) so it actually clocks the wire at 6MHz.  96k is twice this, 192k four times, and 384/24 8x; so you're looking at a 48MHz clock for 384/24.  This is why there's a 48MHz crystal on the board.
> 
> Edit: 6MHz plus change due to framing overhead (preambles and such).


My Musiland 3.0 USB ran perfectly at 384/24 using the Pulse transformer. So it must be passing the 192/24 bit stream easily.

What's the operating transmission rate on the Murata?


----------



## rb2013

Come to think of it. The USB 2.0 throughput rate is 480Mbps, even with bus limitations its 240Mbps. Even lowly USB 1.x Full Bandwidth is 12Mbps. We know that to pass a 192/24 audio data stream without issue we needed USB 2.0. I used to use 1394b before the advent of USB 2.0, especially Async. So we must be talking apples and oranges. No way 384/24 would make it through.

It makes no sense to design a sota USB audio inteface, designed for 384/24, and have it bottleneck on a $3 transformer.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#USB_2.0


----------



## Alexsander

"funny" Murata is installed in very expensive devices:
 Burmester 089 cd player: *€14500*
 http://www.i-fidelity.net/en/Printview.html?showUid=1015
 and M2Tech Vaughan DAC *Price: $7,999.00** *
 http://wizard-highend.blogspot.com/2012/12/m2tech-vaughan-inside.html
 http://soundnews.ro/wp-content/uploads/M2Tech-Vaughan-1-of-1-11.jpg
 http://soundnews.ro/2013/03/18/m2tech-vaughan-review/
  
 ....here question not of the price at 1.57..... qualities and its application!


----------



## rb2013

alexsander said:


> "funny" Murata is installed in very expensive devices:
> Burmester 089 cd player: *[COLOR=545454]€14500[/COLOR]*
> http://www.i-fidelity.net/en/Printview.html?showUid=1015
> and M2Tech Vaughan DAC *Price: $7,999.00** *
> ...


The Vaughan is a DAC. I had the TOTL M2tech PC interface, the Evo. It sells for $500, I had it powered by a Acopian Yellow box linear ps that was $300. The U12 is way better. And isn't the Evo limited to 192k.

The Burmister stuff is insanely overpriced audio jewerly, and it's a cd layer/dac. Not a dedicated pc interface.

Still no one can answer my question: what the 'operating transmission rate' of the Murata. We know it's worse then the Pulse on common mode rejection.

You can't compare the prices of dacs and cd players to a pc interface. Again - Apples and Oranges. Proves nothing.

Edit Again from an audio engineering pov, why use a part that's twice as expensive if it's inferior? Makes no sense.


----------



## rb2013

I've always been a big fan of Auralic's stuff. They're truly cutting edge, sota, designers. Not cheap, but really great dacs for the money.

They use the Pulse in their latest sota $3,300 dac - the Auralic Vega.

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2013/04/auralic-vega-review-part-2-pcm/


In the $1999 Ark MX+ they also use the Pulse. 'Nuff said

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/auralic/1.html


----------



## sandab

rb2013 said:


> My Musiland 3.0 USB ran perfectly at 384/24 using the Pulse transformer. So it must be passing the 192/24 bit stream easily.


 
 Their suggested data rate has little to do with it - the PE-65612 has a 55MHz bandwidth @ 3dB (50% amplitude loss).  This tells you how much it rounds the corners of a square-wave pulse train.  It also tells you at which point - 55MHz - a square wave has become a sinusoidal.   A 48MHz pulse train will no longer be square and will look closer to a sinusoidal.  For AES3 this is pretty poor, as the leading-edge timing of each pulse matters (it's used to recover the source clock) and a sinusoidal will produce a crap-ton of jitter.  A little bit of rail noise or offset voltage will cause the trigger voltage to change and the trigger point on the rising side of the sinusoidal to shift temporally.  This in turn will make the DAC sensitive to any noise whatsoever - no matter where it comes from as its notion of the source clock based on its receiver PLL will wander, causing the sample clock to wander.


----------



## sandab

And looking at their lego-block "Application Circuit", it's utterly laughable.  It essentially connects the two devices' grounds together separated only by the cable shield!!!  That's totally, positively, patently, bat-crap insane.  There is absolutely no use case in the life of the universe one would ever want to do that, especially since their diagram uses differential signaling, whose sole purpose of existence is isolation.
  
http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Pulse%20PDFs/PE-65x12_Rev2006.pdf


----------



## rb2013

sandab said:


> Their suggested data rate has little to do with it - the PE-65612 has a 55MHz bandwidth @ 3dB (50% amplitude loss).  This tells you how much it rounds the corners of a square-wave pulse train.  It also tells you at which point - 55MHz - a square wave has become a sinusoidal.   A 48MHz pulse train will no longer be square and will look closer to a sinusoidal.  For AES3 this is pretty poor, as the leading-edge timing of each pulse matters (it's used to recover the source clock) and a sinusoidal will produce a crap-ton of jitter.  A little bit of rail noise or offset voltage will cause the trigger voltage to change and the trigger point on the rising side of the sinusoidal to shift temporally.  This in turn will make the DAC sensitive to any noise whatsoever - no matter where it comes from as its notion of the source clock based on its receiver PLL will wander, causing the sample clock to wander.


I guess you're a smarter audio engineer then the fellows at AURALiC. You should have your own audio company. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

Been eyeing that Vega, nice unit. But I'm sure you have many suggestions on how they went wrong.


----------



## rb2013

sandab said:


> And looking at their lego-block "Application Circuit", it's utterly laughable.  It essentially connects the two devices' grounds together separated only by the cable shield!!!  That's totally, positively, patently, bat-crap insane.  There is absolutely no use case in the life of the universe one would ever want to do that, especially since their diagram uses differential signaling, whose sole purpose of existence is isolation.
> 
> http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Pulse%20PDFs/PE-65x12_Rev2006.pdf


Laughable, bats**t insane, absolutely no use, - yeah ok. When's your sota stuff hitting the market.


----------



## sandab

rb2013 said:


> Laughable, bats**t insane, absolutely no use, - yeah ok. When's your sota stuff hitting the market.


 
 That's a comment on the data sheet, not the product.  You need to learn to read and pay attention to what's said; not what you think was said.  Not interested in your fanboi pissing contest.  After 30 years as an electrical engineer, working on everything from broadcast video codecs to consumer electronics I've seen technical writers come up with some really ridiculous documentation.  This is far from the worst, but it's pretty bad.  The Vega doesn't connect the AES3 shield to the isolator ground, guaranteed.  Because it would sound like crap if they did, they'd wonder what's wrong, and then they'd tell the junior freshly minted junior engineer responsible to not do that.


----------



## sandab

So I did check the 5V spectrum under 110ohm load on various cables with and without the Wyrd.  Nominally this is 5V 45mA.  I only had 1/4W resistors on hand, and didn't want to make smoke...
 Computer is a late 2013 MacBook Pro 15" retina.
 There's no data traffic on the cable (I don't have the breakouts needed for this).
 The ports are identical, and it makes no difference which is used.
  
 There's no significant difference between the cheapo 3' clear shielded cable and the 6' Ghent Audio U01, with the Ghent being slightly better shielded.
 The 10' Monoprice cable is an effective radio antenna and picks up tons HF spikes up to 30MHz.
 All the cables pick up noise, but the cheapo clear and Ghent U01 show much less than the Monoprice.
 The RF noise shows as singular spikes across a wide band, approximately 1-30MHz.
  
 The main difference is under 300kHz, and for this the cable really didn't make much difference, maybe a few dB at most.
 The Wyrd reduced it greatly, by roughly 25dB around 150kHz.
  
 It made no difference what I used the computer for, even playing music on the other port, or copying files on the internal SSD, or both.  The output
 spectrum looked the same.
  
 The noise is additive, on top of the 5V reference.
  
 Clearly up to 300kHz is computer sourced while above this there's RF interference.
 The Wyrd did nothing for the RF.
 RF is a hugely affected by the cable used.
  
 MacBook Pro... This is an overlay, allowing the spectrum to build up.  I placed a cursor at 300kHz 20dB for reference.  Each vertical divider is 10dB.  Ghent U01 cable.
  

  
 Same but with the 10' Monoprice cable.  This shows the cable affects computer-sourced noise as well.
  

  
  
 MacBook pro via cheapo clear cable to Wyrd, to Ghent U01.
  

  
 Here's the Wyrd on its own, disconnected from the MBP.  Not much difference, which shows good isolation.
  

  
 The absolute value at 20dB is about 20mV above the 5V reference.
  
 There's a peak around 150kHz without the Wyrd, showing 25dB spikes (= over 10V) when fed straight from the MBP.  There are more of these with the MP cable (curiously) than the Ghent... 
  
 Clearly the Ghent is a superior cable to the Monoprice, and clearly the Wyrd cleans up the USB 5V, and not by a small amount.


----------



## rb2013

sandab said:


> That's a comment on the data sheet, not the product.  You need to learn to read and pay attention to what's said; not what you think was said.  Not interested in your fanboi pissing contest.  After 30 years as an electrical engineer, working on everything from broadcast video codecs to consumer electronics I've seen technical writers come up with some really ridiculous documentation.  This is far from the worst, but it's pretty bad.  The Vega doesn't connect the AES3 shield to the isolator ground, guaranteed.  Because it would sound like crap if they did, they'd wonder what's wrong, and then they'd tell the junior freshly minted junior engineer responsible to not do that.


I'm sure the engineers at AURALiC will be holding their breathe awaiting your further critisms. I guess 6moons and Darko are just like little children in your immense shadow. What else do I need to learn from your greatness? Besides how this Pulse transformer works perfectly despite your deep technical gibberish about how that's impossible.


----------



## sandab

rb2013 said:


> I'm sure the engineers at AURALiC will be holding their breathe awaiting your further critisms.


 
 What is this BS?  I haven't criticized their products in the slightest.  You're the only one being criticized here, but you're clearly too stupid to recognize this.  Blocked.


----------



## rb2013

sandab said:


> What is this BS?  I haven't criticized their products in the slightest.  You're the only one being criticized here, but you're clearly too stupid to recognize this.  Blocked.


Now some advice for you - try reading your own posts. It's hard to have an intelligent debate with someone who doesn't understand what he's posting. You might start a few posts of yours back...some incoherent rambling about their Vega and a junior engineer. Criticizing me? I didn't write a data sheet for the Pulse you called bats**t insane, I think that's what that rant was about - hard to say, I'm trying to keep track of your many tangents. Maybe time to return to the topic of this thread.


----------



## Alexsander

Interesting moment:
*5PCS Transformer PULSE DIP-4 PE-65612NL + FREE Shipping costs **US $2.30 *





 http://www.ebay.com/itm/4PCS-Transformer-PULSE-DIP-4-PE-65612NL-/251019403380
  
*10PCS Transformer PULSE DIP-4 PE-65612 PE-65612NL** + FREE Shipping costs **US $4.86*
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-Transformer-PULSE-DIP-4-PE-65612-PE-65612NL-/121267766252
  
  
*DA 101 C Murata Power Solutions Transformer, DADT, 1.00 - 1.59 Mh costs ​**EUR 3.65 + Shipping **EUR 5.11  (1PCS!!!!) = EUR 8.74*
 http://www.ebay.es/itm/DA101C-MURATA-Stromlosungen-Transformator-DADT-1-00-1-59Mh-/131296942891?pt=Bauteile&hash=item1e91e85b2b
  
  
 ....
 Burmeister it's Hi-End device,minimum of compromises, and for me using Murata galvanic isolator *in digital output* it is a quality indicator!


----------



## rb2013

alexsander said:


> Interesting moment:
> [COLOR=333333]*5PCS Transformer PULSE DIP-4 PE-65612NL + FREE Shipping costs *[/COLOR]*US $2.30 *
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/4PCS-Transformer-PULSE-DIP-4-PE-65612NL-/251019403380
> ...


Ok already! The Murata is the greatest piece of audio engineering ever. Any device not using it should be used as a boat anchor. Are you happy now? Can we move on? Anything else to add about the Gustard?


----------



## ryssen

ryssen said:


> Got my U12 today,but I get a "jittery" timefault sound with pops,trumphets sound like they had wahwa pedals.
> I used the drivers that came on the cd.
> Whats wrong?


 

 So I got it working,by taking the USB signal from another USB connector on the otherside of the laptop.
 But that means that I cannot use my "nice cable"that is to short...
 how come there´s such a difference between the USB connections and what to do about it?


----------



## Wynnytsky

ryssen said:


> So I got it working,by taking the USB signal from another USB connector on the otherside of the laptop.
> But that means that I cannot use my "nice cable"that is to short...
> how come there´s such a difference between the USB connections and what to do about it?


 
  
 laptops suck!  Seriously though, I have friends who's laptops just lose USB ports over time.  I recall that happening to early ITX motherboards as well, but never mini-ATX or larger.
  
 I've also seen USB interfaces fail when used with USB extension cables inline, and to recover you just remove+reinsert the USB cable.
  
 In 2015 Intel will release 14nm processor making possible a fanless NUC so resist upgrading your stuff on cyber monday.  This will be the ultimate platform for audiophiles -- silent, low latency, fits in your pocket.  Add a 1TB Samsung mSATA and you won't even need a media server.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> laptops suck!  Seriously though, I have friends who's laptops just lose USB ports over time.  I recall that happening to early ITX motherboards as well, but never mini-ATX or larger.
> 
> I've also seen USB interfaces fail when used with USB extension cables inline, and to recover you just remove+reinsert the USB cable.
> 
> In 2015 Intel will release 14nm processor making possible a fanless NUC so resist upgrading your stuff on cyber monday.  This will be the ultimate platform for audiophiles -- silent, low latency, fits in your pocket.  Add a 1TB Samsung mSATA and you won't even need a media server.


Good advice! Thanks


----------



## Wynnytsky

Is it safe to converse again?  I'm only now seeing the last two pages of posts -- only notified when I'm quoted.  It looks like tornado of bad energy stomped on my Gustard.
  
 Alexander and his translator are this hilarious side act (I'm guessing Japanese to English)
 rb's reaction cracked me up
  
 Quote:


rb2013 said:


> Ok already! The Murata is the greatest piece of audio engineering ever. Any device not using it should be used as a boat anchor. Are you happy now? Can we move on? Anything else to add about the Gustard?


 
  
 Did anybody get this letter with their Gustard?

 Chinese to English translator is no better


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> Did anybody get this letter with their Gustard?
> 
> Chinese to English translator is no better


 
 Well threads do get derailed at times.  Sorry for my lack of patience. But we're back on track.
  
 Yes I did!  I left positive feedback on Ebay for both purchases.


----------



## rmp459

So whats the general opinion of these at this point?
  
 I picked up a U12 from ebay to replace my Yulong U18, which was nothing but problems.
 Initial impressions are quite a bit more resolution at various frequiencies (Things seem stronger, yet clearer?) and much more detailed highs.  The music seems a bit brighter with the Gustard and less laid back.  
 I'm currently using the stock drivers.  So far it seems like a very good price/performance product.  I can't afford to spend $4-500+ on just a usb interface.
  
 Gustard U12 > Yulong D100 (rev1) > Schiit Lyr/Matrix M-Stage
 Running Windows 8.1 currently.  My DPC latency using LatencyMon seems to have gone from ~180-200us (Yulong U18) on average down to ~55-60 (Gustard U12).  Weird.
 Definitely sounds better than the older usb interface built into the D100.
  
 With the Yulong U18, I tried both old and new drivers, also with and without the external power supply.  I would almost always end up with either occasional popping sounds, stream corruption (robot/metallic noises), or just a complete lock up of the transport itself.


----------



## Wynnytsky

The U10 had the laid back sound that was more spread out all over the place
 At first listen the U12's brightness was pretty bad.
 After a friend burned it in for a couple days it came back with focus instead of brightness, which I'm very pleased with.
  
 If I had the D100 I'd probably roll the dice on a Valab/Gustard X10 instead of pairing the D100 with a U12.


----------



## rb2013

rmp459 said:


> So whats the general opinion of these at this point?
> 
> I picked up a U12 from ebay to replace my Yulong U18, which was nothing but problems.
> Initial impressions are quite a bit more resolution at various frequiencies (Things seem stronger, yet clearer?) and much more detailed highs.  The music seems a bit brighter with the Gustard and less laid back.
> ...


I'm loving the sound of both my U12s in two different systems. They do take a burnin period to settle in. In addition to the greater focus and detail, I notice an ease to the music. More musicality. I had the Musiland 3.0 USB with Aqvox linear ps before. Previous to those, I've had the Audiophileo 2, M2tech Hiface and Evo, John Kenny Mk1 and Mk2 all USB interfaces. My pcs have remained the same throughout. I did use JPlay with the Musilands, Evo, Audiophileo 2. It does not seem compatible with any of the Thesycon drivers. But since the sound has improved I just disabled it. JPlay is a real pain, as it shuts down all extranious pc processes, so can be quite buggy. I'd just as soon not have to use it, and manually shut down processes and set thread priority.

My Chord Silverplus USB cable arrived, will give it a listen today and will report the results vs my other USB cables. Also recieved some ERS shielding, will give use to cover the inside of the U12 cover.


----------



## Jamiee

Odd, I use both JPlay and Fidelizer 6.1 daily without any problem to my Windows OS (8.1).
  
 My Chord SilverPlus USB cable arrived earlier this week.  I promptly swapped out the Lightspeed with it and burned the Chord in for a full 30hrs before giving it a listen.
  
 My initial impression was WoW! that BASS is HUGE....  Problem is throughout my testing that's all I kept thinking.
 The bass is quite pronounced with this cable and had a tendency to call attention to itself in my setup.  I was constantly made aware that I have a sub woofer in my system.   I suppose in a setup that lacks some bottom end, the Chord SilverPlus could be a good thing.
 In my system its a case of "too much of a good thing".   My setup is calibrated flat below 500Hz so I can definitely here these differences.
  
 As for the mids and top end, the Chord fared well and is in general a pleasant cable to listen to.  It's a very good cable for the asking price of $125 USD (1.5m) and in fact sonically plays well above that price point. 
 That said, it does not quite reach the sonic capabilities of the Light Harmonic Lightspeed.  The Lightspeed is more natural sounding top to bottom and has a more realistic sense of imaging. It captures sound stage depth noticeably better than the SilverPlus. The Lightspeed also plays louder before the mids become strident, edgy, and start to fall apart. In fact I've never heard at what point this happens with the Lighspeed because my ears give out before then 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I like the Chord SilverPlus well enough, but the light Harmonic Lightspeed is still my reference USB cable.


----------



## rb2013

jamiee said:


> Odd, I use both JPlay and Fidelizer 6.1 daily without any problem to my Windows OS (8.1).
> 
> My Chord SilverPlus USB cable arrived earlier this week.  I promptly swapped out the Lightspeed with it and burned the Chord in for a full 30hrs before giving it a listen.
> 
> ...


 
 Good review - The Chord may need a bit more burn in - possibly another 100 hrs.  Mine is burning in as we speak.  
  
 I may just have to reinstall JPlay and tweek it a bit to get it work.  But what I'm hearing now is so good, I'm not in a mood to mess with it, well software wise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 PS Edit In both my systems I removed the subwoofers.  One a Velodyne DD-10 and the other a Velodyne Optimum 8, as the bass was doing quite well without them after swapping these rare '75 6n23p tubes.  In one system I have Maggie 1.6QRs not known to shake a room and in my other a pr of monitor Reference 3a Dulcet References - same deal.  A little extra down low might not be a bad thing for my system.  Although the Velodyne's have this very trick DSP integration system with their own calibrated microphone and parametric equalizer, I found it very hard to maintain the tonal purity in the bass with them in.


----------



## Jamiee

rb2013 said:


> Good review - The Chord may need a bit more burn in - possibly another 100 hrs.  Mine is burning in as we speak.
> 
> I may just have to reinstall JPlay and tweek it a bit to get it work.  But what I'm hearing now is so good, I'm not in a mood to mess with it, well software wise.
> 
> ...


 
 Possibly, however two things stand out:  1. This is a used cable (Albeit in excellent condition), so it probably shouldn't require a full burn-in period.  2. I don't think I've heard any cable to date that sounded bassy fresh out of the box. Generally speaking most tend to sound a little lean and confused at first, then fill out over the burn-in period.
  
 The Lightspeed itself is something of a unique cable in that it truly does need well over 200hrs (300+ is recommended) to get the best out of it. Can't say I've heard another cable that took so long to burn in... but the wait was definitely worth it!
  
 I'm not saying the Chord is bad...  It just wasn't the best match for my particular system and listening tastes.
  
 I'm curious to hear your review of the Chord and how well it integrates itself into your two systems.  I have no doubt that the extra bottom end oomph will help out your Maggies a bit.


----------



## rb2013

jamiee said:


> Possibly, however two things stand out:  1. This is a used cable (Albeit in excellent condition), so it probably shouldn't require a full burn-in period.  2. I don't think I've heard any cable to date that sounded bassy fresh out of the box. Generally speaking most tend to sound a little lean and confused at first, then fill out over the burn-in period.
> 
> The Lightspeed itself is something of a unique cable in that it truly does need well over 200hrs (300+ is recommended) to get the best out of it. Can't say I've heard another cable that took so long to burn in... but the wait was definitely worth it!
> 
> ...


 
 Good point about it being a used cable.  Digital cables in my experience take longer to burn-in.  One theory is that's due to the low level signal, versus ic's.  I'll put up some thoughts on them after a another few days burnin.  Like you. I'm a big fan of natural tone, being an acoustic guitar player I've got a sense of what a nature tone should sound like.  It's harder to reproduce then most people think.  Same goes for the imaging thing.  The Maggie's are the best imaging speaker I've had (And I've more then a few- including the $26K Talon Firebird Diamonds), truly life sized imaging, with a wrap-around sensation.  It kinda spooks me sometimes, especially at night in a dimly lit room.  They have really good transparency and micro dynamic snap.


----------



## Girmantas

Hi,
  
 I changed to *DA 101 C Murata Power Solutions Transformer and power caps to Panasonic FC's and can say that was ​*significantly improvement! I got lower noise, more pleasent detailed sound. So only recomend to change first transformers!


----------



## rb2013

girmantas said:


> Hi,
> 
> I changed to *DA 101 C Murata Power Solutions Transformer and power caps to Panasonic FC's and can say that was ​*significantly improvement! I got lower noise, more pleasent detailed sound. So only recomend to change first transformers!


 
 I see you just joined today - welcome to the thread!   Thanks for the post
  
 PS Edit - Do you have any pictures -that would be helpful. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Girmantas

Yes, I have pictures but in this forum I dont have rights to post them


----------



## rb2013

girmantas said:


> Yes, I have pictures but in this forum I dont have rights to post them


 
 I think you can after a period of time ad number of posts.  Please do share when you are able - or point to pictures posted elsewhere.


----------



## rb2013

Well had a chance to give the Chord SilverPlus USB cable a good listen last night.  At first, I didn't like it.  It seemed to have removed some of the excellent detail of the Synergistic Research Tesla USB.  A sort of muffling of the crisp detail and clarity of the SR.  But after listening more, it began to grow on me.  It did something on the vocals really pleasing, not better then the SR but slightly different.  Very smooth and flowing.  The bass was excellent - deep and well defined.  Again an equal to the SR, not better.
  
 I'll give it a few weeks listening, then switch back to the SR Tesla, to see how it compares in reverse.
  
 The Tesla is much more expensive - so for the money the Chord is a great value.


----------



## Jamiee

"The Tesla is much more expensive - so for the money the Chord is a great value."
  
  
 Yes I agree.  Nice cable for the the money to be sure. 
 When you have a system that's truly capable of resolving fine detail, The most subtle changes can often make a noticeable difference. 
 That said, it's always best to refer back to what you had before because sometimes those differences aren't a good thing.
  
 I initially liked the Chord for what it did in the midrange, even though it didn't seem to resolve fine detail quite as well as the Lightspeed.
 But it wasn't untill I put the Lightspeed back into the system after hearing the Chord for a couple of days, that it became obvious the Lightspeed is a class above.
  
 Now, don't get me into the argument of why the Lightspeed cost's 10x more than the Chord...  That's just something I'll never quite understand about the audio electronics industry? (about many industries really...)  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 As for the U12, well it isn't going anywhere any time soon. 
 Last week I made a Faraday cage of sorts using Stillpoints ERS fabric to seal off the power components from the digital side.
 Didn't take any photo's (should have), but the results were well worth the 20 minutes of my time.  The U12 resolves even more subtle detail now, with a nice improvement in the overall tone.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Jamiee/rb2013
  
 Is it a coincidence that both of you are using ERS?  And if not, who started it?
 Is it only made by stillpoints?


----------



## rb2013

jamiee said:


> "The Tesla is much more expensive - so for the money the Chord is a great value."
> 
> 
> Yes I agree.  Nice cable for the the money to be sure.
> ...


 
 +1  I put the SR Tesla Tricon back in last night - it was better.  The clarity, focus, incisiveness, detail all returned.  This improved the sound staging - giving a better 'hanging in space' projection to the music.  Small details became more readily apparent.  It's funny how you get accustomed to a musical signature and your mind really dials into it.
  
 Since I recapped my amp over the Summer, replacing 3prs of Mundorf MKP film caps with Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil the transparency has really improved.  The Gustard took it further.  This is the sound I dreamed about 20 yrs ago.  Completely realistic and natural - life sized performers in my listening room.
  
 I liked what the ERS shielding did as well.  I also replaced the stock pc with a Shunyata Venom - very marginal improvement - probably not  worth the $75 cost.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> Jamiee/rb2013
> 
> Is it a coincidence that both of you are using ERS?  And if not, who started it?
> Is it only made by stillpoints?


 
 I used the Still Points ERS tape - just $3.95 a foot.  Two feet is more then enough.
  
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/spoints-66632img.html


----------



## ljbrandt

Hello all! Just found this thread and had a few questions...
  
 I just bought a used Yamaha RX-Z9 A/V receiver for use in my desktop setup with my PC. I was looking at USB receivers to feed into the Z9 and the Gustand U12 came on the radar.   I currently own a Stoner UD120 DAC which is a nice DAC, but some people have advised to use the DAC in the Z9 (BB1972's).  How would the Gustard compare to something like the iFi Nano DSD, which is about the same price (and offers another DAC for DSD use).  Thanks for any input!


----------



## rb2013

Great 6moons review of the Light Harmonic USB cable.  Really goes deep into the actual process of 2.0 Asyn USB transmission and conversion.
  
 http://6moons.com/audioreviews/lightharmonic/1.html


----------



## rb2013

ljbrandt said:


> Hello all! Just found this thread and had a few questions...
> 
> I just bought a used Yamaha RX-Z9 A/V receiver for use in my desktop setup with my PC. I was looking at USB receivers to feed into the Z9 and the Gustand U12 came on the radar.   I currently own a Stoner UD120 DAC which is a nice DAC, but some people have advised to use the DAC in the Z9 (BB1972's).  How would the Gustard compare to something like the iFi Nano DSD, which is about the same price (and offers another DAC for DSD use).  Thanks for any input!


 
 Looks like a nice little unit!  I haven't heard it but looks very interesting.  Uses the XMOS processor.  The biggest difference is it's battery ps vs the AC supply on the Gustard U 12.
  
 Here's a good review - but you'll need to do a Google translate as it's in German.
  
 http://www.audio-creative.nl/hifi/ifi-nano-idsd/2/
  


  
 Edit PS - It can also be used for an on the go HP amp.  Price is reasonable at $189 on Amazon
 Edit Edit - It looks like I might be saying goodby to my current USB /HP amp portable solution the Musiland 3.0 US
  
 Here's another good review in English http://www.audiostream.com/content/ifi-nano-idsd-dacheadphone-amp


----------



## ljbrandt

I wonder if I just utilized the iFi nano for its the xmos receiver and used the coaxial out to my Z9, would I still be able to play DSD?  I assume not, but just wanted to ask.
  
 Edit: Nevermind - just saw in the manual that SPDIF does not support DSD


----------



## rb2013

ljbrandt said:


> I wonder if I just utilized the iFi nano for its the xmos receiver and used the coaxial out to my Z9, would I still be able to play DSD?  I assume not, but just wanted to ask.
> 
> Edit: Nevermind - just saw in the manual that SPDIF does not support DSD


 
 It's unlikely your Z9 would be able to decode DSD anyway.  With my PC I can play DSD files through Foobar - but they are converted to PCM.  You would need a DAC that can process native DSD - the Gustard will pass through an uncoverted DSD signal - but again needs a DAC to accept it.
  
 I have a heavily modded (everything replaced but the drive) Denon CD/SACD player done by APL (super trick 6 AKM 32-bit DACs per channel/tube output/custom Lundahl transformer coupling/Super Clock, etc...) and I like the DSD sound - but it's not that big a deal.  SACD DSD files sound great played through Foobar into this same unit (also acts like a DAC).
  
 More important - how does it sound on PCM - especailly as a PC interface.  I like the battery buffer concept - except every one I have heard in the past lacked dynamics.  I wonder if this is different. Also I wonder what kind of PC control software and drivers it comes with.  The Gustard's work great and have a balance control I find very useful.


----------



## Jamiee

wynnytsky said:


> Jamiee/rb2013
> 
> Is it a coincidence that both of you are using ERS?  And if not, who started it?
> Is it only made by stillpoints?


 
 Stillpoints ERS is a great product.  I use both the tape and non-adhesive backed sheets (which can be taped into place if needed).
  
 There are of course other similar products on the market, even some that are more effective. However Stillpoints ERS is super easy to work and experiment with and typically yields good results for the $$.


----------



## Jamiee

rb2013 said:


> Great 6moons review of the Light Harmonic USB cable.  Really goes deep into the actual process of 2.0 Asyn USB transmission and conversion.
> 
> http://6moons.com/audioreviews/lightharmonic/1.html


 

 Yup it is a very very good cable indeed. 
  
 Shocker of a story........  I actually bought mine from Amazon.com of all places!
 Honestly -  Amazon had the best price on the Lightspeed that I could find anywhere at the time and they also stocked the various lengths and configurations.
  
 [EDIT]  Just checked and they still have them


----------



## rb2013

jamiee said:


> Yup it is a very very good cable indeed.
> 
> Shocker of a story........  I actually bought mine from Amazon.com of all places!
> Honestly -  Amazon had the best price on the Lightspeed that I could find anywhere at the time and they also stocked the various lengths and configurations.
> ...


 
 Yes - $999 Och!  But would love to hear one.  Pretty happy now with my Tesla Tricon USB and Stilpoint Poseidon Silver.
  
 To bad the Chord didn't unseat them.


----------



## elwappo99

Thinking about jumping on one of these to upgrade my USB interface. Anyone had a chance to compare this to a Audio-GD digital interface? Anyone thinking about passing theirs along? Seems like they've hit a low price of $150 on the bay.


----------



## rb2013

elwappo99 said:


> Thinking about jumping on one of these to upgrade my USB interface. Anyone had a chance to compare this to a Audio-GD digital interface? Anyone thinking about passing theirs along? Seems like they've hit a low price of $150 on the bay.


 
 Someone over on the Lyr tube rolling thread mentioned the Audio-GD digital.  Very nice unit!  Also AC powered.  May give it a try someday.  http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DI2014/DI2014EN.htm
  
 $300 with TXCO


----------



## elwappo99

rb2013 said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > Thinking about jumping on one of these to upgrade my USB interface. Anyone had a chance to compare this to a Audio-GD digital interface? Anyone thinking about passing theirs along? Seems like they've hit a low price of $150 on the bay.
> ...


 
  
 They are very good units. I actually have one of the older versions of this unit I was thinking about upgrading, but I was hoping someone might have had the chance to compare the Gustard unit to one of these. With shipping and all, the Audio-GD unit comes out to be over twice as much


----------



## genclaymore

Audio-GD Digital did look like a good choice but then i saw it price, and ran away tightly holding my wallet in my hand, as it was more then i afford, let alone spend on a converter. Which how I ended up with a Peachtree X1 usb to spdif converter since it was the more affordable option for me. With my Bifrost non-usb uber,Of course I had to get a USB y cable to supply more power to it. As by it self one with a normal usb cable wasn't doing it justice, til I used that cable which solved the sound being funky issue. Now works great, but only if your usb plug can supply enough power to it, or I sure a powered hub would had worked other then the Usb type B one male to two male type A cable.  I bet that audio Digital does perform very well like Audio-gd products do as I had a couple of Audio-gd products my self.


----------



## rb2013

elwappo99 said:


> They are very good units. I actually have one of the older versions of this unit I was thinking about upgrading, but I was hoping someone might have had the chance to compare the Gustard unit to one of these. With shipping and all, the Audio-GD unit comes out to be over twice as much


 
 Did the older one have a separate powers supply?  Do you know what kind of chip it uses for conversion?  I believe I read somewhere it was a custom DSP.


----------



## elwappo99

rb2013 said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > They are very good units. I actually have one of the older versions of this unit I was thinking about upgrading, but I was hoping someone might have had the chance to compare the Gustard unit to one of these. With shipping and all, the Audio-GD unit comes out to be over twice as much
> ...


 
  
 The older ones had the option of adding in a power supply, which most people did. I believe they used either the TE7022 or TE8802 (DIV1 and DIV2) chips.


----------



## rb2013

elwappo99 said:


> The older ones had the option of adding in a power supply, which most people did. I believe they used either the TE7022 or TE8802 (DIV1 and DIV2) chips.


 
 Thanks for the info - would like to do a head-to-head comparison with the Gustard U12.  But I can hardly believe it could be better - but I always say that!
  
 The Gustard is really, really good.


----------



## mz2014

Hi
 Is the Gustard U12 has USB galvanic isolation like ADUM3160 ?
 Regards


----------



## Gibalok

Hello all.

Recently grab the U12 at local dealer. I was dreaming on Sotm (1.2K$) or even BADA USB (1.8k$) but I decided that it is excessive comparing to my track:

Pc+ Matrix X-Sabre + Exposure 3010s2 Int + KefR300 
Matrix Quattro Amp + Sennheiser HD650 (Silver cable)+Denon AH-D7100 
Wires: DH Labs Pro Studio, Kimber Kable Tonik, Analysis-Plus Oval 12
Power: FluxLabs 1700/500/200 Watt + Oyaide power wires (3x Tunami,FS 2.6)

So I understand that i need to upgrade KEFr300 for PMC or other more sensitive acoustics before investing into expensive dacs and convertors.

Whats on Gustard U12. Its a wonderful piece of equipment. It brings more clarity and makes the sound more analogue and legible. I didnt make a straight comparison of the sound w/ or w/o U12 but yesterday evening i was enjoying my collection. The sound was sweet and soft, mitigating Matrix-Sabre edges. 

Im still using crappy stock power cord, but will chnage it to Isotec Premium soon and Im using Audio-Technica Art link Coax cable to connect U12 and Matrix-Sabre. 

Here are some questions:

Did anybody compare U12 to Sotm? 
Is it worth to install some advanced USB card into PC like Sotm USB card? Btw U12 filters USB noise from USB quite well.


----------



## rb2013

gibalok said:


> Hello all.
> 
> Recently grab the U12 at local dealer. I was dreaming on Sotm (1.2K$) or even BADA USB (1.8k$) but I decided that it is excessive comparing to my track:
> 
> ...


 

 Great to hear you like the sound of the Gustard U12 - I'm enjoy mine as well.  I had a Sotm USB card - and used it in conjunction with the Musiland 3.0.  It really was marginal in terms of improving the Musiland once I used the Aqvox linear PS.  I still use Sotm filters on the one CPU fan and  hard drives in my music server.
  
 http://www.sotm-audio.com.au/product/sotm-sata-filter-ii/


----------



## Gibalok

rb2013 said:


> Great to hear you like the sound of the Gustard U12 - I'm enjoy mine as well.  I had a Sotm USB card - and used it in conjunction with the Musiland 3.0.  It really was marginal in terms of improving the Musiland once I used the Aqvox linear PS.  I still use Sotm filters on the one CPU fan and  hard drives in my music server.
> 
> http://www.sotm-audio.com.au/product/sotm-sata-filter-ii/




Sotm usb 3.0 exp card is 2x pricey to Gustard U12. So considering the price and its marginal effect I should find another arguments to buy it.


----------



## rb2013

gibalok said:


> Sotm usb 3.0 exp card is 2x pricey to Gustard U12. So considering the price and its marginal effect I should find another arguments to buy it.


 

 I also had issue with my PC server recognizing the card - sometimes it would and someties not.  My PC server is an iCore 5 with Windows 7 64bit


----------



## Gibalok

rb2013 said:


> I also had issue with my PC server recognizing the card - sometimes it would and someties not.  My PC server is an iCore 5 with Windows 7 64bit




Sounds like not a bargain...


----------



## rb2013

gibalok said:


> Sounds like not a bargain...


 

 Yeah - I sold the Sotm USb card.  I love the Gustard!  They have been playing 24/7 in two systems for weeks now without a single issue.


----------



## Alexsander

Hi,
 with my Tiny MPD (Linux) I have same trouble's using this device.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 If i playing file's 44.1k 16bit and next file in playlist 44.1k 24bit -> noise/silent, and on display Gustard U12 i see "----" converter is not working, I need restart Gustard (on/off power cable).
 If i playing this files not together->working O.K.
  
 This bug's I have in next samplerate:
 44.1k 16bit - next file in playlist 44.1k 24bit
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 48k 16bit - next file in playlist 48k 24bit
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 96k 16bit - next file in playlist 96k 24bit
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 download this testing file's:
*http://www.ex.ua/966096958067*
  
  
 in other cases everything works!


----------



## motberg

Hi,
  
 Just 2 quick questions I did not see fully addressed in the thread so far:
  
 1) Is it possible to use the AES/EBU balanced output and SPDIF RCA simultaneously?
 2) Is anyone using this DCC with Jplay, KS, with Ultrastream engine?
  
 Thanks


----------



## Wynnytsky

I had the Gustard connected to my Yulong D18 with both AES and COAX.  A rocker switch on the D18 switched from one to the other making a short tick sound in the music playback.  Given that experience I would assume that all Gustard outputs are working at all times.  It's always a luxury in audio to be able to compare stuff without shutting stuff down and swapping cables.


----------



## conquerator2

I bought the DI, but I'll be watching this thread for an unlikely comparison of the two


----------



## rb2013

alexsander said:


> Hi,
> with my Tiny MPD (Linux) I have same trouble's using this device.....
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry don't run Linux - so I'm no help.  Try a message to the seller


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just 2 quick questions I did not see fully addressed in the thread so far:
> 
> ...


 

 I have not reinstalled Jplay after uninstalling it, for the Thesycon installation.  I'm torn on JPlay - it's such a pain-in the a**, as it shuts down all extraneous processes.  Which means it can lock up at times of freeze your machine.  I did finally have it working with the Musiland drivers reliably.  The sound I'm getting right now is so good - I'm not feeling the need to mess with it - other then the failed experiment with the Chord Silver+ cable.  So far the Gustard works flawlessly.
  
 The only issue - after a power outage - on reboot - I had to unplug and replug the USB cable on the U12 for windows to recognize it.  I believe this has to do with the protection relay built into the U12 to prevent damage on accidental USB or SPDIF cable unplug,


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> I bought the DI, but I'll be watching this thread for an unlikely comparison of the two


 

 DI?


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> DI?


 
 Audio-gd DI-V2014 - http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DI2014/DI2014EN.htm


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Audio-gd DI-V2014 - http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DI2014/DI2014EN.htm


 

 Got it - nice unit


----------



## elwappo99

Well I ended up grabbing one of these. Tracking seems to not be loading, so I don't know when it'll get here, but eager to compare to an older Audio-GD interface TE7022 chip.


----------



## motberg

Hi Wynnytsky and rb2013 - many thanks for the U12 comments, much appreciated...
 seems that more of the Audio-GD DI2014 is being delivered, I hope those folks will post their comments about the SQ and driver stability also..
  
 Thanks again and best regards..


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Hi Wynnytsky and rb2013 - many thanks for the U12 comments, much appreciated...
> seems that more of the Audio-GD DI2014 is being delivered, I hope those folks will post their comments about the SQ and driver stability also..
> 
> Thanks again and best regards..


 

 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

elwappo99 said:


> Well I ended up grabbing one of these. Tracking seems to not be loading, so I don't know when it'll get here, but eager to compare to an older Audio-GD interface TE7022 chip.


 

 Nice!  Well maybe we can get a comparison at least with the older Audio-GD.
  
 Please post your comments when you get it.


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Audio-gd DI-V2014 - http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DI2014/DI2014EN.htm


 

 Forgot to ask - did you get the upgraded TCXO clock?


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> Forgot to ask - did you get the upgraded TCXO clock?




I did, along with the HDMI output, and a HDMI kit to install one on my NFB7 too.
I mainly want to see what difference it makes compared to using regular USB input


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> I did, along with the HDMI output, and a HDMI kit to install one on my NFB7 too.
> I mainly want to see what difference it makes compared to using regular USB input


 
  
 Let us know how you like it


----------



## preproman

I'm late to the party so I apologize if these questions have already been asked.  
  
 Looking to build a second system in a different location.  Been looking at two converters, now this one has been added.
  
 http://audiobyte.net/products/hydra-z = $1K
  
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DI2014/DI2014EN.htm = close to $400 with shipping (i'm guessing)
  
 And now this one.  
  
 One thing is for sure this U12 looks way better than the DI - to me anyway.  
  
 I see some have modded this unit.  *Have any one tried to use the Femto clocks?*
  
 This is a really cool thread guys..


----------



## rb2013

preproman said:


> I'm late to the party so I apologize if these questions have already been asked.
> 
> Looking to build a second system in a different location.  Been looking at two converters, now this one has been added.
> 
> ...


 

 The hydra looks very similar to the Musiland USB 3.0 I used before, the advantage with the hydra is the seperate dc power source.  I did the work around solution on the Musiland using the Aqvox linear PS that feeds through the USB.
  
 Have not tried changing the clocks as they look very good stock.  As good as the Musiland's were, the Gustard's are better in my three systems.
  
 PS and compared to the above a real bargain at $160.  If I was going to go all out it ($1k+), it would be with the Berkley Alpha USB


----------



## preproman

Yeah, I'm using the Alpha USB in my main system.  Yeah, the DC input is a good feature for those who would like to add a LPSU, I think it's a plus.  
  
 Your right, $160 is really a bargain.


----------



## conquerator2

While the Gustard might have the advantage in exterior, I think as far as internal go, at least on paper, the DI-V2014 is considerably more beefed up.
I might get the U12 in time if I am not happy with the DI


----------



## Chodi

I have the U10 and it has worked flawlessly over many months. You can read hundreds of posts right here on the forum about the audio-gd product with firmware and driver complaints. The Gustard sounds wonderful right out of the box and it cost is a real bargain. Seems like an obvious choice in it's price range. I had the Hiface two and the Gustard was far better in every respect. The newer U12 has a display which the U10 did not. Also they claim a newer xmos chip in the U12. At that price if I were looking for a new usb interface it would not be a difficult decision. At the very least it is an inexpensive trial.


----------



## sgbwill2

Has anyone compared it to the Topping D20? very interested as I am looking for an upgrade.


----------



## conquerator2

I am aware of the DI's shortcomings and I am not trying to devalue the Gustard. It seems very good for the price. Still, a comparison would be nice, no?


----------



## rb2013

chodi said:


> I have the U10 and it has worked flawlessly over many months. You can read hundreds of posts right here on the forum about the audio-gd product with firmware and driver complaints. The Gustard sounds wonderful right out of the box and it cost is a real bargain. Seems like an obvious choice in it's price range. I had the Hiface two and the Gustard was far better in every respect. The newer U12 has a display which the U10 did not. Also they claim a newer xmos chip in the U12. At that price if I were looking for a new usb interface it would not be a difficult decision. At the very least it is an inexpensive trial.


I'll have to go over to that thread to read more about it. As I'm always looking to boost my systems performance, I was giving the DI some consideration. The nice part about upgraging from the Musiland's to the Gustard's it was almost cost free. I was able to sell the Musiland's for not much less then the Gustatd's cost. Now after hearing the two, it was a killer upgrade.


----------



## Wynnytsky

sgbwill2 said:


> Has anyone compared it to the Topping D20? very interested as I am looking for an upgrade.


 
 If your looking to upgrade a DAC then please roll your dice on the Gustard DAC-X12 and tell us something.  It came out let than a week ago (Dec 15th).  Off the bat I can see the W4S body is gone.  And the vintage LCD screen will make this your ONLY component that isn't adding to the night time listening light show.
  
 My friend uses that Topping DAC for his desktop PC.  It's funny because the USB section died on it and he was forced to add a USB transport (though the Gustard he reserves for his primary rig).  He is actually responsible for getting me and several of my friends to purchase the U10, and so far two of us opted to get the U12 as well.


----------



## elwappo99

wynnytsky said:


> If your looking to upgrade a DAC then please roll your dice on the Gustard DAC-X12 and tell us something.  It came out let than a week ago (Dec 15th).  Off the bat I can see the W4S body is gone.  And the vintage LCD screen will make this your ONLY component that isn't adding to the night time listening light show.
> 
> My friend uses that Topping DAC for his desktop PC.  It's funny because the USB section died on it and he was forced to add a USB transport (though the Gustard he reserves for his primary rig).  He is actually responsible for getting me and several of my friends to purchase the U10, and so far two of us opted to get the U12 as well.


 
  
 Interesting. Looking at pics and it seems like the H10 stacks quite nicely with it. Looks like the H10 got some pretty positive marks, overall
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier


----------



## rb2013

sgbwill2 said:


> Has anyone compared it to the Topping D20? very interested as I am looking for an upgrade.


 

 No - but  I just completed a DAC modding project - that turned out killer!  I took a stock Lite DAC60 and did some pretty extensive mods - it now competes with and even beats my 6X more expensive APL DAC.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project


----------



## Benny-x

preproman said:


> I'm late to the party so I apologize if these questions have already been asked.
> 
> Looking to build a second system in a different location.  Been looking at two converters, now this one has been added.
> 
> ...


 
 There was a previous, and very similar, model called the U10 that you can see was modded with "upgraded" clocks on the first couple pages. If you just check via pictures, it's got a blue PCB.
  
 I'm also going to bite and grab one of these in the next couple days. I'm chomping at the bit to feed my/your PWD Mkii an I2s feed via my PS-Audio I2s-12 cable. And just to be mean I'll provide the link where you can have these delivered locally for ~$125 in China   
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.98.JQd7JS&id=26708612785&ns=1&abbucket=17#detail 
  
 Every now and then there's an upside to now calling this place home


----------



## Benny-x

rb2013 said:


> No - but  I just completed a DAC modding project - that turned out killer!  I took a stock Lite DAC60 and did some pretty extensive mods - it now competes with and even beats my 6X more expensive APL DAC.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project


 
 So, did you guys ever come to a conclusion of what to do about the transformer? Did we find out if it's got the standard wiring or if the primary and secondary are switched/proprietary? It looks like a cool and not too challenging mod, so I'd love to give it a shot if you guys settled it.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## b0bb

preproman said:


> I see some have modded this unit.  *Have any one tried to use the Femto clocks?*


 
  
 The U12  uses a 45MHz and 48MHz crystal, these are readily available at Mouser or Digikey, however they do not stock the femto clocks at these frequencies.
 I modded an older unit similar to the U10 using the Crystek CCHD-957 this is a 500fs jitter device, the ones that are advertised as the femto clock upgrades are typically the Crystek CCHD-575 (82fs) or Abracon ABLNO (100fs) .
  
 If you know of a source willing to sell small quantities of these devices at the required frequencies, I would be most interested.
  
 (I have been experimenting with the femtos on the Yulong DA8 DAC, and there are some pictures of them on the DA8 review thread for anyone curious about them)


----------



## elwappo99

Mine finally showed up. Got the drivers hooked up and looks like it's all up and running.


----------



## conquerator2

Mine DI-V2014 arrived too. It joined the Wyrd to expand my desk's collection of boxes and gizmos 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I've been feeding the NFB7 via HDMI through it and everything is fine.
 The only difference I've noticed is that it now clocks all signal to 24bit, while the regular NFB7 USB input clocks it at 32bit. No SQ difference though, the DI-V2014 does what it should and it also passes DSP [AC-3/DD5.1], which is something not every device does [the OR5 for example, doesn't].
 Zero issues for now, coupled with the NFB7 :}


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> Mine DI-V2014 arrived too. It joined the Wyrd to expand my desk's collection of boxes and gizmos
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Perfect! 
  
 Now we just need to live in the same side of the planet and we could compare!


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> Perfect!
> 
> Now we just need to live in the same side of the planet and we could compare!






Well, I go to L.A. regularly, cause my brother lives there 
Certainly a future posibility.
I might give the U12 a try in the future anyway but for now I like the sound.
I wpuld think the U12 (or its XMOS chip) gives a smoother sound than the V2014.
Or not. We might see


----------



## Failed Engineer

Just bought a U12 to pair with a vintage DAC I just purchased with an AES/EBU balanced input.  It seems to be well regarded and appropriately priced for an experiment so I pulled the trigger.  The AES/EBU output on the U12 is not common on other USB transports so it was the final selling point.  Looking forward to posting my thoughts.


----------



## preproman

conquerator2 said:


> Mine DI-V2014 arrived too. It joined the Wyrd to expand my desk's collection of boxes and gizmos
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 That sounds promising Luke..


----------



## Benny-x

b0bb said:


> The U12  uses a 45MHz and 48MHz crystal, these are readily available at Mouser or Digikey, however they do not stock the femto clocks at these frequencies.
> I modded an older unit similar to the U10 using the Crystek CCHD-957 this is a 500fs jitter device, the ones that are advertised as the femto clock upgrades are typically the Crystek CCHD-575 (82fs) or Abracon ABLNO (100fs) .
> 
> If you know of a source willing to sell small quantities of these devices at the required frequencies, I would be most interested.
> ...


 
 I found a local'ish, also taobao.com, spot where I can buy the same Crsytec CCHD-957 clocks that you used, so I'm going to go ahead and buy the Gustard and try the clock upgrade. There's no way the internal clocks are going to be better than those Crsytek ones... I really wish I could find the CCHD-575 units in 45.1584MHz and 49.152MHz like this convertor takes. The 22-25MHz versions are super easy to find, but not these 2 :'-(  I would also be really interested in buying some if anyone knew where to get them.
  
 And on page 4 RB2013 also did a filter cap mod, replacing the standard 2200uf Phillips caps with the same rated Panasonic FC ones. I'm gonna give this a shot too, but I'd like to up the capacitance a little as I've had good results doing so on other components. I haven't decided on which caps I'd like to go with or what values, though. I've only ever used Nichicon and Mundorf before. I've heard Elna Silmic II's are good, but would anyone have any application specific ideas for here?
  
 Ah... down the rabbit hole I go again


----------



## preproman

WOW Ben,  Let us know how it turns out.  I will be sending you one to mod for me (maybe)


----------



## Benny-x

preproman said:


> WOW Ben,  Let us know how it turns out.  I will be sending you one to mod for me (maybe)


 
 Will do. The modding part will take a little while to get around to, but collecting the parts shouldn't be bad.
  
 As for sending a unit for me to mod, no problem! I take payment in Master 7s...


----------



## preproman

benny-x said:


> Will do. The modding part will take a little while to get around to, but collecting the parts shouldn't be bad.
> 
> As for sending a unit for me to mod, no problem! I take payment in Master 7s...


 

 Ha ha ha ha...  It's going up for sale soon...


----------



## Benny-x

You're kidding? Why? I know you've got the AMR-777, but are you thinking of replacing them both?
  
 With the new HDMI-I2s input board and all the stuff going on about disconnecting PLL, changing the upsampling, and whatever else, it seems like the DAC is only getting better. And with the 8x PCM1704UK making it a real modern R2R DAC, I can't see any reason to sell it. I don't have any means to pick one up, but it's really been on my mind since that HDMI-I2s upgrade came out.
  
 I guess I've wanted to try Kingwa's reference DAC since I found out about the Ref 1, 8, and 9 several years ago. I never ever had the cash at the right time and never went to a meet to hear one, and now the Master 7 has the feedback to say it's the best of his crop so far. If I had one, even if it sat backseat somehow, I don't think I could sell it. Even if by PM, you've got to bring me up to speed on that one.


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> So, did you guys ever come to a conclusion of what to do about the transformer? Did we find out if it's got the standard wiring or if the primary and secondary are switched/proprietary? It looks like a cool and not too challenging mod, so I'd love to give it a shot if you guys settled it.
> 
> Thanks.


 

 Hey Benny-x - Very cool you're in China - some really amazing audio.  You should hear the modded Bada 3.3SE Purer with Mundorf Silver Gold caps - the best Class A amp I've ever heard.  I have two of the old versions with the Toshiba outputs and 6922s pre amp tube (same as my Lite DAC60).  Magical with my Holy Grail tubes!
  
 Well I never heard back on the transformer issue - I do believe it's switched and proprietary.
  
 Getting the wiring wrong on that mod would be a horrible sight!  Unless you like fireworks


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> I found a local'ish, also taobao.com, spot where I can buy the same Crsytec CCHD-957 clocks that you used, so I'm going to go ahead and buy the Gustard and try the clock upgrade. There's no way the internal clocks are going to be better than those Crsytek ones... I really wish I could find the CCHD-575 units in 45.1584MHz and 49.152MHz like this convertor takes. The 22-25MHz versions are super easy to find, but not these 2 :'-(  I would also be really interested in buying some if anyone knew where to get them.
> 
> And on page 4 RB2013 also did a filter cap mod, replacing the standard 2200uf Phillips caps with the same rated Panasonic FC ones. I'm gonna give this a shot too, but I'd like to up the capacitance a little as I've had good results doing so on other components. I haven't decided on which caps I'd like to go with or what values, though. I've only ever used Nichicon and Mundorf before. I've heard Elna Silmic II's are good, but would anyone have any application specific ideas for here?
> 
> Ah... down the rabbit hole I go again


 

 The Elna Silmic II are awesome 'lytics - used a bunch in my Lite DAC60 stage 2 and 3 mods. They are a little more musical and less neutral then the FCs.  I believe the FCs have a longer life rating and higher temp range - which shouldn't be an issue in the U12.
  
 As for femto clock mod - it may not have as big of an effect in the U12 based on the way the Xmos chip utilitizes the external clocks.  Checkout the posts 83, 84,...etc back on page 6.  But you never know - from what I've read the M2Tech Evo was improved by external clocking - but that was an entirely different chipset and implementation.  To bad the U12 didn't have an external clock capability.  I'd like to try one of these
  
 http://www.frontendaudio.com/Antelope-Isochrone-10M-Master-Clock-p/9999-15889.htm?gclid=Cj0KEQiA8f6kBRCGhMPFtev8p58BEiQAaMLmqfxlIKVL6U5I2oJ-6ZVlWeTnMpySGBNzUU-y-167RgsaAljq8P8HAQ&click=18920
  
 Joking of course!  But there is the cheaper Evo clock - http://www.spearitsound.com/Digital_Clocks-M2Tech_EVO_Clock.html?gclid=Cj0KEQiA8f6kBRCGhMPFtev8p58BEiQAaMLmqWZApg5xoQgF72k6Tdwhtv4wMYQufRn1DWmrQNK4dKMaApSs8P8HAQ
  
 Anyway back to the Gustard U12 and the Xmos clocking implementation:


> I posted there this question and received this reply
> On the XMOS clocking issue, I believe you described the clock derivation issue as:
> “And according to this doc [link], the input clock (say the 24.576MHz clock) is sampled to the internal processor clock. Meaning that the external clock ticks (or transitions) are mapped to the processor clock ticks. This means that the worse “jitter” is when you just miss the external clock transition and must wait for the next internal clock tick. So the worse deviation from the actual frequency is the period of the processor frequency, thus for a 400MHz internal clock part, it is 2.5nS. This is the peak jitter. Thus the RMS number is 2.5/SQR(2)=700 psec””
> 
> ...


----------



## b0bb

benny-x said:


> I found a local'ish, also taobao.com, spot where I can buy the same Crsytec CCHD-957 clocks that you used, so I'm going to go ahead and buy the Gustard and try the clock upgrade. There's no way the internal clocks are going to be better than those Crsytek ones... I really wish I could find the CCHD-575 units in 45.1584MHz and 49.152MHz like this convertor takes. The 22-25MHz versions are super easy to find, but not these 2 :'-(  I would also be really interested in buying some if anyone knew where to get them.
> 
> And on page 4 RB2013 also did a filter cap mod, replacing the standard 2200uf Phillips caps with the same rated Panasonic FC ones. I'm gonna give this a shot too, but I'd like to up the capacitance a little as I've had good results doing so on other components. I haven't decided on which caps I'd like to go with or what values, though. I've only ever used Nichicon and Mundorf before. I've heard Elna Silmic II's are good, but would anyone have any application specific ideas for here?
> 
> Ah... down the rabbit hole I go again


 

 Mouser ships to China, all 4 of the audio versions (22MHz, 24MHz, 45MHz, 49Mhz)
 http://www.mouser.cn/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=cchd-957


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Well I never heard back on the transformer issue - I do believe it's switched and proprietary.
> 
> Getting the wiring wrong on that mod would be a horrible sight!  Unless you like fireworks


 
 My U12  got lost in transport, seller refunded payment but it ended up taking 5 weeks, in the meantime I got caught up in other stuff.
  
 I will probably get another unit in early 2015


----------



## merlin2049er

Hey, I haven't really touched my unit yet.  Just wondering if hdmi is sort of like the standard i2s interface?
  
 I did buy a couple of hdmi connectors, but it would be way too hard to actually work with it.  I'm thinking of getting an easy to work with hdmi breakout board.
  
 Oh, and do I use the + side of the output of the i2s interface?



 Thanks,
Joe


----------



## sgbwill2

elwappo99 said:


> Mine finally showed up. Got the drivers hooked up and looks like it's all up and running.


 
 I'm interested to hear your opinion on the u12 how do you think it stacks up in comparison to other DAC's? Thanks


----------



## Chodi

sgbwill2 said:


> I'm interested to hear your opinion on the u12 how do you think it stacks up in comparison to other DAC's? Thanks


 
 The U12 is a usb converter not a dac. I have the U10 but the U12 contains a newer xmos chip. The U10 is excellent so I have no doubt the U12 is also very good and probably better than the U10 which is already very good.


----------



## sgbwill2

chodi said:


> The U12 is a usb converter not a dac. I have the U10 but the U12 contains a newer xmos chip. The U10 is excellent so I have no doubt the U12 is also very good and probably better than the U10 which is already very good.


 
 oh ok thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## conquerator2

I am considering pulling the trigger on the U12, just to compare to the NFB7.
 I am not sure whether there'd be any difference though... It would probably come from USB32 vs XMOS, rather than the surrounding circuitry.
 Decisions, decisions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Has anyone paired the U12/U10 with a Sabre DAC?
 Any comments would be appreciated as they'd nudge me in the right direction


----------



## Chodi

conquerator2 said:


> I am considering pulling the trigger on the U12, just to compare to the NFB7.
> I am not sure whether there'd be any difference though... It would probably come from USB32 vs XMOS, rather than the surrounding circuitry.
> Decisions, decisions
> 
> ...


 
 That is exactly how I used my U10 with the Yulong Sabre D18. The results were excellent. Far better than than the Hiface 2 I also owned. I have since moved onto another dac that uses the Amanero usb only because I wanted to finally get into dsd. Considering the modest cost of the U12 it is not really a life threatening decision.


----------



## conquerator2

^ Thanks!
 I'll think it over then


----------



## phile1

hello, 
 is the U12 plug&play with linux source ? even with highRez files ? no special driver required ?
 Has someone compared it with the DXIO PRO3A from DIYINHK (pretty much at the same price) ?
 thanks


----------



## lmitche

phile1 - There is no need for a linux driver with the Gustard U12.  I use a SOTM-SMS-100, a Linux renderer, in front of the Gustard U12 and it works perfectly with all sample rates and formats from redbook though high res files recorded at both 2x DSD and 32/352.8kHz.  It may work with even higher resolution files, I just don't have any to test.


----------



## phile1

Thanks Imitche,
 happy that it works well with the SMS100... I have a SMS100 too !
 Then my concern is about my DXIO PRO3 (usb-spdif interface from DIYINHK), is the U12 better ?... 
 the DXIO PRO3 is big like a pack of cigarettes, the U12 is far bigger with a nice power part (it seems). Thus, as the quality of the power is critical is computer audio, I guess this U12 is better than my DXIO...
  
 Is there any quality difference between the output ? for instance coax & AES ?
 My DXIO has only coax output, to enter my reclocker (Mutec MC3+) ; as my Mutec has a AES input, I guess it would be better through all AES connections...
  
 if someone has reviewed both ?...
 Rgds


----------



## rb2013

lmitche said:


> phile1 - There is no need for a linux driver with the Gustard U12.  I use a SOTM-SMS-100, a Linux renderer, in front of the Gustard U12 and it works perfectly with all sample rates and formats from redbook though high res files recorded at both 2x DSD and 32/352.8kHz.  It may work with even higher resolution files, I just don't have any to test.


 

 That's good to know - I've been thinking of building a new linux music server.
  
 If you want to try higher sampling rates then 32/352.8k - you can use Foobar and the SoX upsampler (both free) - the SoX has a multiplier upsample options 2x and 4x.
 You can get free hi res files at the L2 website.  Just take a DxD file and do the 2x, or a 192k and 4x.
  
 It would be interesting to see if that rate passes through. 
  
 http://www.2l.no/hires/


----------



## conquerator2

Well, I clicked the buy now button by mistake!
 Ooopsies


----------



## lmitche

Thanks for the advice.  I was able to stream a 384 khz 32 bit file just fine from the SOTM SMS-100 through the Gustard.  However, quite frankly, I will stop spending a premium on high resolution files.  The Gustard make redbook files sounds so fine, I just don't see the need for high resolution DSD or PCM.


----------



## Hun7er

Did anybody compares the Gustard vs Berkeley or SOTM converter ?


----------



## conquerator2

Well, I can compare it to the Audio-gd DI-V2014 when I receive it,  if that'd be any help to anybody


----------



## phile1

thanks Conquerator2,
we can wait for your feedback. ..


----------



## conquerator2

Well, the overwhelmingly positive impressions got the best of me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Besides, if it really is smoother than the USB32 and is a better match with the Sabre, I'll be beyond happy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 The DI-V2014 is amazing and I love it, but for all things it does well, revealing all the details there are, I wish it revealed a bit less sometimes, coupled with the uber-revealing Sabre 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I think it would be a brilliant match with a Wolfson or Burr-Brown, or any NOS/R2R/tube DAC [or chip]. With some of my tracks, it sounds heavenly in this combo, while with others it is a bit harsh. I'd gladly take a compromise and get great results with all, at a smoother overall tonality.
 I'll see whether the U12 will do it, or if it'd only help to a point.
 Certainly looking forward to comparing the two units


----------



## conquerator2

One important thing I should have verified [oops 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




], is whether the U12 can pass DD5.1/AC3 virtual surround processing.
The DI-V2014 does. The Berkeley Alpha does not. Seems to be kind of hit or miss.
It is a thing I need it to do though [since I game a lot. Movies are fine in JRiver down-mixed, as it actually sounds kinda convincing!], so I hope it will 
If anyone could confirm, that'd be nice. If not, I'll wait and see.
  
 EDIT: Ooops, mistook the optical output of the U12 for an input. So I'll have to go optical to my DAC when gaming [hardly an issue though].
 The DI and U12 will be compared purely as USB-to-HDMI converters then. [Possibly other outputs later]


----------



## rb2013

lmitche said:


> Thanks for the advice.  I was able to stream a 384 khz 32 bit file just fine from the SOTM SMS-100 through the Gustard.  However, quite frankly, I will stop spending a premium on high resolution files.  The Gustard make redbook files sounds so fine, I just don't see the need for high resolution DSD or PCM.


 

 Give the SoX resampler a try - I like the sound of Redbook resampled to 24/192 (highest my DAC can receive).  It has lot's of options - I've been using it awhile.  My settings are Quality: Best, Passband: 95%, Allow Aliasing: Yes, Phase Response: 50% Linear.
  
 I have a cheaper Musiland Monitor USB 3.0 it's an all in one unit USB/DAC - it takes the 384K files from 2L just fine - also I can upsample to that rate, again no problem.  Nothing higher though.
  
 Try SoX, it's free on the hydrogen forums


----------



## rb2013

hun7er said:


> Did anybody compares the Gustard vs Berkeley or SOTM converter ?


 

 Not yet - the BADA is out of my price range!


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Well, I can compare it to the Audio-gd DI-V2014 when I receive it,  if that'd be any help to anybody


 





 Yes!


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Well, the overwhelmingly positive impressions got the best of me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 With my modded tube R2R Lite DAC60 - match made in heaven.  Tube warmth, richness and tonality coupled with the detail, clarity, and transparency of the Gustard - Yeow!
  
 I have two U12's, the other feeds my near SOTA (6 AKM 32bit DACs per channel, Luhndal transformer coupled, tubed) APL DAC.  Stunning!  The best I've ever had in 25 years of audio.  I digitalized my LPs a few years back, using proaudio ADCs - 32bit/176K sampling.  This was off a near SOTA analog setup (VPI table, Dynavector XV1S, etc), the play back of these files is as close to that $30K rig as I have ever heard - 99% of the LPs playing in real time.
  
 Can't ask for more then that.
  
 PS Here is the link to my DAC Mod Project thread - the results exceeded my best expectations
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project


----------



## conquerator2

Thanks, though I wonder how it does with SS Sabre sources, rather than tube DACs.
 No offence meant, just not something I can relate to yet [have not tried tubes yet]


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Thanks, though I wonder how it does with SS Sabre sources, rather than tube DACs.
> No offence meant, just not something I can relate to yet [have not tried tubes yet]


 

 No offense taken!  Early on in my audio days I was a solid state guy - lot's of stuff from Krell, Pass, Meridian, Musical Fidelity, etc...I tried over a dozen cd players/dac/transports (pre music server days).  I stumbled onto tube gear because the SS stuff had boom/sizzle (and great specs), but not the rich tone I found long term satisfying.  But once I got on the tube train about 12 yrs ago - I never got off.  I still think SS does some things better - like amplification (just a deeper, tighter, better controlled, more dynamic bass) and some things tubes do better like pre-amps and gain stages. 
  
 I became a hybrid fan (SS amp - preferably class 'A' circuit design & tubed pre-section) about 6 yrs ago - the best of both worlds.


----------



## Wynnytsky

conquerator2 said:


> Thanks, though I wonder how it does with SS Sabre sources, rather than tube DACs.
> No offence meant, just not something I can relate to yet [have not tried tubes yet]


 
 I love U12 with the Yulong D18 (ESS9018)
 I loved the U10 as well (same combo Chodi was using)
  
 My friends use the original Young DAC with ext power supplies (one on U10, the other on U12) and that's a little better, but 4x the [retail] price.
  
 I'm also very much in the hybrid camp though I don't use tubed sources.  I have heard a JAS Musik tube rectified CD player that was astounding to my ear.  I'm going to assume that rb2013 is tripping on that same sound.


----------



## Benny-x

My U12 should arrive on Monday and I'll be pairing it with a PS-Audio PWD Mkii out of a non-optimized Windows 7 laptop until I get my system up and running.

Given the hypothesis above that the Di-2014 should be a better match for a Wolfson DAC like mine, it'll be interesting to try. I can't say, but I don't think I'll be trying the DI-2014 as it's just silly out of experimental pricing; I'd like to though, if anyone in China is feeling generous enough to send me there's for audition 

I'll also just have to collect mod supplies for it for now, as I won't have the time to try anything until the end of February or beginning of March.


----------



## ccschua

comparing gustard vs di2014 is like comparing highly spec equipment with well design circuitry. I am interested to know the outcome too.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> I love U12 with the Yulong D18 (ESS9018)
> I loved the U10 as well (same combo Chodi was using)
> 
> My friends use the original Young DAC with ext power supplies (one on U10, the other on U12) and that's a little better, but 4x the [retail] price.
> ...


 

 How do you compare the U10 to the U12?


----------



## Failed Engineer

I just got mine delivered tonight and have it hooked up but only now realized I don't have any computer in the house with an optical drive to get the driver from the disc supplied with the U12 (for Windows).  Does anyone have links to downloadable drivers?  I know this thread had discussion of alternate drivers as well.  Links to those would be appreciated as well.  I want to try ASIO.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Benny-x

failed engineer said:


> I just got mine delivered tonight and have it hooked up but only now realized I don't have any computer in the house with an optical drive to get the driver from the disc supplied with the U12 (for Windows).  Does anyone have links to downloadable drivers?  I know this thread had discussion of alternate drivers as well.  Links to those would be appreciated as well.  I want to try ASIO.
> 
> Thanks!


 
 PM sent.


----------



## Benny-x

Since this unit takes AC, I was looks at AC line filters to put inside the Gustard. I could go with a cap across the terminals inside the Gustard or with a choke. Does anyone have any experience with a good or "better" AC cap or choke? I know that whatever cap I end up using, it needs to be marked X1 or X2 on the outside to show it's OK for AC applications. And for chokes, does anyone have any experience with these Murata ones? http://www.murata.com/en-us/products/emc/acline


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> Since this unit takes AC, I was looks at AC line filters to put inside the Gustard. I could go with a cap across the terminals inside the Gustard or with a choke. Does anyone have any experience with a good or "better" AC cap or choke? I know that whatever cap I end up using, it needs to be marked X1 or X2 on the outside to show it's OK for AC applications. And for chokes, does anyone have any experience with these Murata ones? http://www.murata.com/en-us/products/emc/acline



I upgraded my power cord to a Shunyata Venom, and run it through a Richard Gray power filter/transformer. I also upgraded the lytic ps filtering caps to FC's. I used a Hammond choke filter to replace a major ps resistor in my DAC mod project, it was a nice improvement. These chokes are large and would likely not fit in the case.


----------



## Benny-x

rb2013 said:


> I upgraded my power cord to a Shunyata Venom, and run it through a Richard Gray power filter/transformer. I also upgraded the lytic ps filtering caps to FC's. I used a Hammond choke filter to replace a major ps resistor in my DAC mod project, it was a nice improvement. These chokes are large and would likely not fit in the case.


 
 I've read your build thread a few times and I used to have the Lite DAC-83. Man did I ever love the craftsmanship of that DAC! It's hands down the most precise and well built component I've owned. Your Lite DAC-63 must be similar, and from your build thread it looks like you've done good work with it. Unfortunately I had to sell my DAC-83 when I moved, but I really loved it. I did find that it didn't have the best synergy with the JKMk3 HiFace and DNA Sonnet I owned. I loved all 3 pieces individually, but together there weren't a great match.
  
 About the Hammond choke, definitely couldn't fit one in the U12, but I'll fit something in there. I was looking at the small Murata chokes that I linked to because they'd definitely fit in there.
  
 I also received my U12 today and is it ever a solid feeling component. Ha, even if it doesn't work I'm still happy I own it. It's a rock solid feeling little device and I'm really looking forward to hooking it up to my PWD Mkii later. The mods should be a lot of fun too, whenever I get to them.


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> I've read your build thread a few times and I used to have the Lite DAC-83. Man did I ever love the craftsmanship of that DAC! It's hands down the most precise and well built component I've owned. Your Lite DAC-63 must be similar, and from your build thread it looks like you've done good work with it. Unfortunately I had to sell my DAC-83 when I moved, but I really loved it. I did find that it didn't have the best synergy with the JKMk3 HiFace and DNA Sonnet I owned. I loved all 3 pieces individually, but together there weren't a great match.
> 
> About the Hammond choke, definitely couldn't fit one in the U12, but I'll fit something in there. I was looking at the small Murata chokes that I linked to because they'd definitely fit in there.
> 
> I also received my U12 today and is it ever a solid feeling component. Ha, even if it doesn't work I'm still happy I own it. It's a rock solid feeling little device and I'm really looking forward to hooking it up to my PWD Mkii later. The mods should be a lot of fun too, whenever I get to them.


 

 Yes that Lite DAC-83 is a beautiful unit. 
  
 The U12 is very well finished and has the feel of a much more expensive piece of gear.  The board and components look to be of decent quality.  Keep me posted on the Murata chokes - that would be an interesting mod.


----------



## DObleX

del


----------



## Sajk

Hi guys,
 I got mine U12 week ago (as NY present 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) to paired with NAD M51 DAC and compare with build-in USB. The achieved results were good enough, even better than expected 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Anyway I am thinking about mods. As far as I see there the main route is:
 - digital transformer pulse PE-65612NL -> Murata DA101C (it's clear)
 - replace power caps to Panasonic FC's. Could you please advice which Pana caps are needed (capacity type, link if possible)
 Any other suggestions?


----------



## phile1

hi Sajk,
 "good enough" ? could you be more precise ?
 what do you plug on the N51 ? your computer via USB ?
 N51 usb input is said to be far behind the coax/AES inputs. Using the U12, your enter the 51 via coax or AES instaed of the USB... thus the improvement migth be there


----------



## Sajk

ok, I will describe the full config:
 I am using dedicated MusicPC (Gigabyte J1800N-2H + PPA Studio Audio Grade USB 3.0 PCIe Card, Wesena ITX4, Server 2012 audiophile core edition + JRiver) with 2 PSU (linear for MB + impulse for HDD/SSD) -> NAD M51  -> Ayre V-3x  (XLR) -> Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor.
  
 Previously PC was connected via AudioQuest Carbon USB to build-in USB, now I am using the U12 through coax.
  
 I've got more "neutral" sound in my taste but lost some "detail". Hope  mods could improve this.


----------



## rb2013

sajk said:


> ok, I will describe the full config:
> 
> I am using dedicated MusicPC (Gigabyte J1800N-2H + PPA Studio Audio Grade USB 3.0 PCIe Card, Wesena ITX4, Server 2012 audiophile core edition + JRiver) with 2 PSU (linear for MB + impulse for HDD/SSD) -> NAD M51  -> Ayre V-3x  (XLR) -> Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor.
> 
> ...


What coax cable are you using?


----------



## rb2013

sajk said:


> Hi guys,
> I got mine U12 week ago (as NY present
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Just the same value FCs mouser has them


----------



## Sajk

rb2013 said:


> What coax cable are you using?


 
 Kimber Kable Illuminations D60


----------



## ccschua

sajk said:


> ok, I will describe the full config:
> I am using dedicated MusicPC (Gigabyte J1800N-2H + PPA Studio Audio Grade USB 3.0 PCIe Card, Wesena ITX4, Server 2012 audiophile core edition + JRiver) with 2 PSU (linear for MB + impulse for HDD/SSD) -> NAD M51  -> Ayre V-3x  (XLR) -> Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor.
> 
> Previously PC was connected via AudioQuest Carbon USB to build-in USB, now I am using the U12 through coax.
> ...


 

 can I know how you fix you up the pc CAS. is it all in the same chassis ? some picture will help a lot.


----------



## rb2013

sajk said:


> Kimber Kable Illuminations D60


 

 You might want to try a better cable, I've had good success with the Audio Sensibility Ref 1.5M.  I tried 5 different cables, some more expensive -this was the best.  Not ridiculously priced.  $219 for a 1.5M (the optimal digital coax length to reduce back reflections)
  
 http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/digital-cables-occ-copper-and-occ-silver/#!/Statement-Silver-S-PDIF-RCA-BNC-Digital-Cable/p/17562670/category=4059160
  
  
 Which cable are you using for USB?
  
 PS Those Sonus Faber Cremona Auditors are awesome speakers! - a friend has a pr


----------



## conquerator2

Sure, 219$ for a 1.5M cable is almost dirt cheap


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Sure, 219$ for a 1.5M cable is almost dirt cheap


 

 I know that is a lot of money - but for a reference cable - it's not bad.  Go to Audiogon and check out digital cables!
  
 http://app.audiogon.com/listings?filter_category_id=3


----------



## conquerator2

There're worse offenders, sore. I just think it is the last thing once should tweak, only after he has a TOTL amp, DAC and headphone, which provide a more palpable difference, IMO.


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> There're worse offenders, sore. I just think it is the last thing once should tweak, only after he has a TOTL amp, DAC and headphone, which provide a more palpable difference, IMO.


 

 I've had cables that make a bigger difference then amp changes.  I've been rolling both insanely for 20 yrs.
  
 Don't underestimate what better cables can do.


----------



## Sajk

rb2013 said:


> You might want to try a better cable, I've had good success with the Audio Sensibility Ref 1.5M.  I tried 5 different cables, some more expensive -this was the best.  Not ridiculously priced.  $219 for a 1.5M (the optimal digital coax length to reduce back reflections)
> 
> http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/digital-cables-occ-copper-and-occ-silver/#!/Statement-Silver-S-PDIF-RCA-BNC-Digital-Cable/p/17562670/category=4059160
> 
> ...


 
 I am using AudioQuest Carbon USB cable.
  
 Frankly speaking I don't see the reason to use expensive cables for 170$ converter.
 Maybe it makes sense for Berkeley Alpha USB but not for Gustard U12, just my opinion
  
 Waiting for advice/tips for possible mods.


----------



## Sajk

I am using AudioQuest Carbon USB cable.
  
 Frankly speaking I don't see the reason to use expensive cables for 170$ converter.
 Maybe it makes sense for Berkeley Alpha USB but not for Gustard U12, just my opinion
  
 Waiting for advice/tips for possible mods.


----------



## phile1

rb2013 said:


> I've had cables that make a bigger difference then amp changes.  I've been rolling both insanely for 20 yrs.
> Don't underestimate what better cables can do.



everyone his own experience...
i tried various cables, and took care of placebo effect : i bought "right price" cables (never above 60usd). I was right because i saved money i could put later in good gear that enabled nice quality jumps, much higher than a cable change could ever offer. But maybe my amp is already a good one  ...


----------



## rb2013

sajk said:


> I am using AudioQuest Carbon USB cable.
> 
> Frankly speaking I don't see the reason to use expensive cables for 170$ converter.
> Maybe it makes sense for Berkeley Alpha USB but not for Gustard U12, just my opinion
> ...


 

 Well those AudioQuest should be pretty good -although I never heard them.  I was just curious.
  
 I don't rank equipment's sound by price - I have $800 amps that sound better then the $10,000 ones I've owned.
 My Maggie 1.6 QRs are some of the best sounding speakers I've ever owned (better in many ways then my old $30K Talon Firebirds).  I paid $800 used from a dealer - I have $1500 of cables hanging off the back of them.
  
 They're producing the best sound I've ever heard (thanks partly to the Gustard U12).


----------



## rb2013

phile1 said:


> everyone his own experience...
> i tried various cables, and took care of placebo effect : i bought "right price" cables (never above 60usd). I was right because i saved money i could put later in good gear that enabled nice quality jumps, much higher than a cable change could ever offer. But maybe my amp is already a good one  ...


 

 So you've tried lot's of audio cables - like?  Oh that's right never above '$60' - that rules out most.  Your amp 'must be a good one'.
  
 May I suggest some new speaker cables for you to try.  A $44 bargain.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Cable-Heavy-Duty-4-Gauge-Glo-Watt/dp/B00002243Y


----------



## Benny-x

sajk said:


> I am using AudioQuest Carbon USB cable.
> 
> Frankly speaking I don't see the reason to use expensive cables for 170$ converter.
> Maybe it makes sense for Berkeley Alpha USB but not for Gustard U12, just my opinion
> ...


 
 Spending a few hundred bucks on a cable that you'll only ever use on a low value product isn't a great investment, you're right. But if you ever think you'll get a better version of that component, then you might want to make your initial cable purchase a bit better and get something you won't need to buy again. Those cables that were linked so seem like nice quality for a good price. I'm not saying that the cables definitely sound different, but having a well built one definitely does make me feel good 
  
 To your point about the mods for the U12, though, I'll put down a list soon. I'm also trying to consolidate one from around the various forums because I'd like to order all the parts at one time. On the up side, of all the mods so far, only the AB5100/S seems to be unique and harder to get; all of the other mods should be able to be bought on digikey or mouser. 
  
*Mods so far:*
- Replace 45.1584MHz clock with Crystek - 957 (CCHD-957 45.158MHz)
- Replace 49.152MHz clock with Crystek (CCHD-957 49.152MHz)
- Shield clocks with Mu-metal or 3M AB5100/S (or both, if you've got 'em  )
 - Replace transformer with any CE, FCC, UL, etc. rated transformer. As long as there's more copper in it and it's rated, it should be fine. Transformers used on a previous Gustard - U10 upgrade were an Amgis/Alfamag or Talema unit.
- Shield transformer with copper, nickle or Mu-metal (or all 3, if you've got 'em  )
- Replace PS(power supply) filter capacitors with caps like Panasonic FCs at 2200uf (I'm going to go a bit higher on capacitance)
- Replace the main rectifier filter caps with ones like the Nichicon FP Polymers (2x lower ESR)
- Replace SPDIF/AES pulse transformers with Murata DA101C; or ones like Newava S1122(very good feedback), Lundahl LL1572(used in Audio Note gear), or Scientific Conversion SC947-02(experienced users' best feedback)
- Shield XMOS and other chips with 3M AB5100/S
  
_(edit: added below)_
*~Prices (from mouser or digikey):*
1. Crystek 957 45MHz - I was wrong, it's a 22.5792MHz - Anyway, Crystek of this one - $27
2. Crystek 957 49MHz - I was wrong, it's a 24.576MHz - Anyway, Crystek of this one - $27
3. Mu-metal & AB-5100(non-S) - already have and want to use on something. I have more than what I'll need for here.
4. New transformer - (Amgis, for example) $20; but let's say a more expensive one @ $50.
5. Copper, Mu-Metal, Nickle shilding - again, already have and want to use.
6. Panasonic FC or Nichicon KZ @ 3500uf(for example) - $5-7(for 2)
7. Nichicon FP Polymers - $2
8. Scientific Conversion SC947-02 - $20
9. AB-5100(non-S) - you know it.
10. Murata - AC line filter choke - $2 
  
-----------------------------------------

So, total cost to me is about $130, exactly what I paid for the thing. That might seem a little out there since it's almost the same cost as the Gustard U12, but the issue is that the Gustard was just so cheap from the beginning. If it was more expensive then it would make those prices seem lower and more realistic. Haha, in looking at what I'm planning to do and change on the unit, imagine how much that would cost from a manufacturerer or modder...

Like damn, I just finshed with that never ending nightmare, i mean funding, campaign of the Geek Pulse and modifications like that were like $100 a pop. But ahhh, I can't talk shiit too much. I'll be happy when I get my tricked out DAC+AMP from them for work :-D

Anyway, I bet if I geared this Gustard U12 thing up with those all mods it'd be and interesting little piece of gear to listen to. Like I had mentioned earlier, even if it doesn't sound that great, the construction of it feels very impressive and I loved it as soon as I picked it up.

I just hope I don't screwing drop it or something when I'm done and ruin all my work @_@


----------



## Sajk

benny-x said:


> Spending a few hundred bucks on a cable that you'll only ever use on a low value product isn't a great investment, you're right. But if you ever think you'll get a better version of that component, then you might want to make your initial cable purchase a bit better and get something you won't need to buy again. Those cables that were linked so seem like nice quality for a good price. I'm not saying that the cables definitely sound different, but having a well built one definitely does make me feel good
> 
> To your point about the mods for the U12, though, I'll put down a list soon. I'm also trying to consolidate one from around the various forums because I'd like to order all the parts at one time. On the up side, of all the mods so far, only the AB5100/S seems to be unique and harder to get; all of the other mods should be able to be bought on digikey or mouser.
> 
> ...


 
 Great! Thanks a lot! This is what I expected 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Will start with pulse transformer replacement and caps.
​Unfortunately mouser doesn't send to my home country Ukraine, will try to find another source.
 Thank you again!


----------



## Benny-x

sajk said:


> Great! Thanks a lot! This is what I expected
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I edited the last post, have a look now. Fixed the clocks and added #10.


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> Spending a few hundred bucks on a cable that you'll only ever use on a low value product isn't a great investment, you're right. But if you ever think you'll get a better version of that component, then you might want to make your initial cable purchase a bit better and get something you won't need to buy again. Those cables that were linked so seem like nice quality for a good price. I'm not saying that the cables definitely sound different, but having a well built one definitely does make me feel good
> 
> To your point about the mods for the U12, though, I'll put down a list soon. I'm also trying to consolidate one from around the various forums because I'd like to order all the parts at one time. On the up side, of all the mods so far, only the AB5100/S seems to be unique and harder to get; all of the other mods should be able to be bought on digikey or mouser.
> 
> ...


 
 Did you guys even read this thread?  If you're going to summarize a long thread -at least be accurate. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Be careful on the transformer swap - it looks like the pin layout in the U12 is non-standard (at least that's what was the conclusion from earlier in the thread).
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/120 (post #123 and #125, #126, #127). 
  
 Murata pulse transformers - Oh no, here we go again! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  The Pulse transfomrers are fine.  http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/180 (post #186)
  
 Due to the way the XMOS internally clocks off the external clocks - I highly doubt a clock upgrade would make a difference.  Do you know who OEMs the Gustard clocks?  They're TXCO (A temperature-controlled crystal oscillator) 0.1ppm's link to past comments:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/75 (post #83 through #89).
  
 The 'lytic cap swap and ERS shielding a good, easy and cheap way to go.  I'd also replace the fuse with a Furutech.  Beyond that a waist of time and money.  Buy better cables.


----------



## rb2013

sajk said:


> Great! Thanks a lot! This is what I expected
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Do you expect someone to read and summarize every thread - once you decide to grace it with your presence?


----------



## Sajk

rb2013 said:


> Do you expect someone to read and summarize every thread - once you decide to grace it with your presence?


 
 Believe me, I read the entire thread before asking, try to re-read my first post. Expected to see specific recommendations on capacitors replacement and got them as well as other tips.


----------



## Benny-x

rb2013 said:


> Did you guys even read this thread?  If you're going to summarize a long thread -at least be accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 We both know that I read it. As for the transformer, there was actually no conclusion about its wiring as the guy who was going to check never got his unit because it was lost in the mail. I'll check with mine before that, for sure. That's also why I never listed a SKU, just a brand. I figure if someone was dumb/smart enough to actually haul out a working PSU, they'd have an idea about how to put the next one back in. 
  
 And the clocks, no I don't know who OE's 0.1ppm TCXO clocks for them, but they don't look much different that all the other ones I see one Chinese hi-fi devices in all sorts of price ranges... I find it hard to believe that if these clocks really were that good that this device would be this competitively priced. Even at bulk pricing, there's no way they'd be moving enough units to beat the curve and make money if the internals were as expensive as the supposedly lesser quality Crysteks and others that I mentioned. And if you're going to ask, I have in fact looked into who the company is with my Chinese audio friends and they said Gustard is an unknown. I agree though, I have no real evidence for questioning their clocks and am only spending money and time on something I have no way of knowing beforehand. If I had 2 units to compare though...
  
 The Murata DA101C pulse transformers, I must have forgotten that part. The last I saw in the discussion was someone saying one thing and someone else saying something else. I've read elsewhere that Newava and Scientific Conversion have almost opposite approaches to pulse transformers, but that people seem to think one or the other is the best. I'm willing to take my chances with it as I have no benchmark and no idea. Again though, this is just me having fun and seeing how I can mod a component that seems relatively easy to do so with. If I hook it up and hear a difference, I'll be super pumped. As for anyone else looking to do the same, I assume they'd think everything through before they decide whether they want to go down any of the 9 paths I've mentioned.
  
 Oh, and if you knew the cost of the shielding, you'd retract that last sentence... The 3M AB-5100/S is about $70/A4 sheet, if you can even find it. The Mu-metal is ~$40 for an A5, and the ERS paper is ~$30/A4. Luckily I didn't pay those prices AT ALL and I got this stuff over a long period of time. IU do look forward to finally getting to use it, though! Make a verrrrrrrrrrrrrry small portion of the expense money well spent 
  
 As for electrolytic cap mods, they almost universally seem to make things better, eh? Once I've practiced enough on lower priced components and figure I'm ready I'm going to undertake a HUGE mod to my Audio-gd Phoenix in both the headphone out and power supply sections. Those parts cost over $250 just for caps... I've still got to get new wire and a couple hard to find caps, then have at it. You can look up the mod already though, it's called Prickely Pete's Phoenix MAXX Mod. He did his Reference 1/7 as well. He was pretty awesome.


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> We both know that I read it. As for the transformer, there was actually no conclusion about its wiring as the guy who was going to check never got his unit because it was lost in the mail. I'll check with mine before that, for sure. That's also why I never listed a SKU, just a brand. I figure if someone was dumb/smart enough to actually haul out a working PSU, they'd have an idea about how to put the next one back in.
> 
> And the clocks, no I don't know who OE's 0.1ppm TCXO clocks for them, but they don't look much different that all the other ones I see one Chinese hi-fi devices in all sorts of price ranges... I find it hard to believe that if these clocks really were that good that this device would be this competitively priced. Even at bulk pricing, there's no way they'd be moving enough units to beat the curve and make money if the internals were as expensive as the supposedly lesser quality Crysteks and others that I mentioned. And if you're going to ask, I have in fact looked into who the company is with my Chinese audio friends and they said Gustard is an unknown. I agree though, I have no real evidence for questioning their clocks and am only spending money and time on something I have no way of knowing beforehand. If I had 2 units to compare though...
> 
> ...


 

 +1 Fair enough.  I just didn't want folks coming to this thread thinking that was the summary. 
 I look forward to your mods and hope they do make a positive change.  Definitely download Chodi's Thesycon Driver set - the SpyTool is awesome (many, many thanks!). 
  
 I have been running my U12 for several months now 24/7 - over 2 billion data packets IN FB, 3 billion out!  Only 35 empty packets IN FB, none out, ERR: IsoPacketFailed 3.
 Never an audible hiccup, jitter dance, or DAC unlock!  Never a PC crash or blue screen - extremely stable (windows 7 64 bit/ Foobar/SoX upsampler).   Can;t ask for better then that.
  
 I agree film and electrolytic cap upgrades do make a difference. Film caps especially so (See my DAC mod project http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project).
  
 For a small project like this I used the ERS tape - 2ft is plenty - $8. 
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/spoints-66632img.htmlhttp://www.partsconnexion.com/spoints-66632img.html


----------



## rb2013

sajk said:


> Believe me, I read the entire thread before asking, try to re-read my first post. Expected to see specific recommendations on capacitors replacement and got them as well as other tips.


 

 So why did you repeatedly (and in a somewhat rude fashion) ask for the cap values when I posted it with pictures back on page 4, post #57? Sheesh! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/45
  
 10/12/14 at 10:29am

THREAD STARTER 


 OK I cracked open the case for some photos. While it was open, I decided to swap the

Philips BC 2,200uf 25v filter caps for some same sized Pana FCs

I had leftover from another project.

Should give a little better ps ripple filtering.

 Here are the photos:






Edited by rb2013 - 10/12/14 at 10:32am


----------



## conquerator2

Waiting for mine to arrive, hopefully later this week 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I hope I like it, for the price 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Seems like a very decent USB converter


----------



## sbgk

conquerator2 said:


> Waiting for mine to arrive, hopefully later this week
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 got mine today, sounds good already. thinking of just moving the transformer outside the box as a really simple way of removing emf.


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> Sure, 219$ for a 1.5M cable is almost dirt cheap


 
  
  
 That's not that much money. Not like you can buy a pair of headphones with that much money


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> That's not that much money. Not like you can buy a pair of headphones with that much money


 
 You're right, I can buy two AKG K240 MKII's for that price, or the Gustard U12, or 3 HiFiMAN RE-400s, or the Q701s.
 Or the Vali, or Mini-X. Or the M-Stage.
 Just saying 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 [Sarcasm, right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




]


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> elwappo99 said:
> 
> 
> > That's not that much money. Not like you can buy a pair of headphones with that much money
> ...


 
  
 haha, yea I think you caught my drift. I stopped playing into those expensive cables awhile back. Blind testing changed my mind a lot. Even if I was sure I heard a huge difference, blind testing made it clear the difference was very subtle. 
  
  
 Off topic, since we're both hifiman fans, what amps are you running lately? I can't seem to find a good (would like balanced) amp to run them on. I keep my eyes open, but can't find anything I really enjoy them with. Have you jumped on the new Hifiman cans?


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> haha, yea I think you caught my drift. I stopped playing into those expensive cables awhile back. Blind testing changed my mind a lot. Even if I was sure I heard a huge difference, blind testing made it clear the difference was very subtle.
> 
> 
> Off topic, since we're both hifiman fans, what amps are you running lately? I can't seem to find a good (would like balanced) amp to run them on. I keep my eyes open, but can't find anything I really enjoy them with. Have you jumped on the new Hifiman cans?


 
 I use the now discontinued Audio-gd SA31SE [with a custom 5/25 gain board] with the HE-560 and I quite like it. I am in the process of selling my NFB-7 and getting a Gungnir. Hopefully, it'll work out. The NFB-7 is a great, uber detailed DAC, but the HiFiMANs strive for more musicality, which it does not add.
 Eventually, I guess I'd like to end up with the Rag and Yggy combo, but I want to try the cheaper Schiit first :]


----------



## rb2013

elwappo99 said:


> That's not that much money. Not like you can buy a pair of headphones with that much money


 

 Or 219 Apple earbuds - just saying.


----------



## rb2013

elwappo99 said:


> haha, yea I think you caught my drift. I stopped playing into those expensive cables awhile back. Blind testing changed my mind a lot. Even if I was sure I heard a huge difference, blind testing made it clear the difference was very subtle.
> 
> 
> Off topic, since we're both hifiman fans, what amps are you running lately? I can't seem to find a good (would like balanced) amp to run them on. I keep my eyes open, but can't find anything I really enjoy them with. Have you jumped on the new Hifiman cans?


 

 I'm honored to be in the presence of such audio wizards.  A pair of $300 Headphones and an amp and everyone's a seasoned audiophile.


----------



## elwappo99

Quote:


conquerator2 said:


> I use the now discontinued Audio-gd SA31SE [with a custom 5/25 gain board] with the HE-560 and I quite like it. I am in the process of selling my NFB-7 and getting a Gungnir. Hopefully, it'll work out. The NFB-7 is a great, uber detailed DAC, but the HiFiMANs strive for more musicality, which it does not add.
> Eventually, I guess I'd like to end up with the Rag and Yggy combo, but I want to try the cheaper Schiit first :]



  
  
 Yea, I think I'm kind of on the same course as you. I'm playing around in the $200-$600 area, but nothing's really standing out. Maybe we'll both end up with Raggys! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Quote:


rb2013 said:


> I'm honored to be in the presence of such audio wizards.  A pair of $300 Headphones and an amp and everyone's a seasoned audiophile.


 
  
 Of course not! It takes a $200 cable to attain enough audiophile snobbery to condescend the $300 peasants!


----------



## rb2013

elwappo99 said:


> Of course not! It takes a $200 cable to attain enough audiophile snobbery to condescend the $300 peasants!


 

 I bow to the 'Master Blower'.  Did you really have all those HPs and equipment on your list?  Most audio snobs don't trade
 trade $30K speakers for $800 ones - unless they've lost they're jobs.  I just go with what sounds good.


> Headphone Inventory
> Only headphones of interest noted:
> 
> Current:
> ...


 
 BTW I'd try the Moon Blue Dragon HP cable with your HE-500's.  When I had mine it really helped them sound better.


----------



## elwappo99

rb2013 said:


> I bow to the 'Master Blower'.  Did you really have all those HPs and equipment on your list?  Most audio snobs don't trade
> trade $30K speakers for $800 ones - unless they've lost they're jobs.  I just go with what sounds good.


 
  
 I wouldn't spend $30k on speakers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. If $800 sounds better, why not buy those? Once you're in that range, you're paying for the psychological effect more than actual performance. But then again, if cables make such a large difference, maybe there's more to gain at that level.
  
 Only takes a moment to look at my trader feedback and see those listed. I started using my profile as a way to track the gear I've owned since it's pretty convenient.


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> I wouldn't spend $30k on speakers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You mean 69? HE?! HE?!
 Sorry, I had to


----------



## rb2013

elwappo99 said:


> I wouldn't spend $30k on speakers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 +1 Well I agree with all that.  I  fortunately bought the $30K speaker used - like almost all my cables and gear.  I paid $12K and sold them for the same.  The Maggies just image so well and project a life size image.  Really fun to listen to  - they need a very clean source and a pretty big room.
  
 Hey 69 is a great trader score!  Does spending $2,000 on a headphone make you a Headphone Snob?  Just kidding! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My feedback on Audiogon (Rb99) is 634 (214 transactions - 213 positive - 1 neutral). I have bought and sold alot of gear over 20 years - including a pretty vast array of cables. 
 To me they do sound different - I can double blind pick them out - and cost does not guarantee the best sound.  $219 is not alot in my book to spend on a cable - I've spent thousands.  Is it money 'well spent'?  Not most of the time - I will freely admit.  But some times a absolute yes!
  
 Take my HD800's I would have sold them for the Stax-009's if I had to listen to the stock cable.  The Moon Black Dragon V2's cured the sibilance issues, gave them a richer tone and much better bass.  The difference in these HP's with this cable is not subtle.  
  
 Have you read the epic 'Battle of 58 Flagship Headphone' thread?
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-58-headphones-compared-update-audeze-lcd-2-revision-2-6-4-13
  
 David Mahler used upgraded cables and even upgraded his HP cables.  I think he's a pretty good Headfier and not some shill for cable companies.


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> You mean 69? HE?! HE?!
> Sorry, I had to


 
  





 yea, its seems to be stuck there! 
  
 Maybe it'll jump up soon. I'll probably get a pair of LCD-X, EL-8 (just announced), HE560, or HE1000. I'll have to follow your lead and see what you end up with


----------



## CJG888

Any news on that U12 vs. Audio-gd DI 2014 comparison?


----------



## conquerator2

cjg888 said:


> Any news on that U12 vs. Audio-gd DI 2014 comparison?




U12 should arrive any day now


----------



## Anda

conquerator2 said:


> U12 should arrive any day now


 
  
 Did you order inside EU?


----------



## conquerator2

anda said:


> Did you order inside EU?




Yep, from Amazon.uk


----------



## Anda

conquerator2 said:


> Yep, from Amazon.uk


 
 Ok. For future owners their Ebay shop ships from UK 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GUSTARD-U12-Native-32bit-384kHz-XMOS-DAC-0-1ppm-U10-upgrade-Black-Silver-/261596415436


----------



## rb2013

Anyone who wants to try an awesome interconnect cable - I highly recommend these Aural Thrills Silver/Teflon.  They use a unique grounding circuit and Teflon/Silver plugs similar to the very expensive WBT's.  $179/pr for 1 meter - 60 day free trial.  So you can do your own free 'blind test' after burnin.
  
 http://app.audiogon.com/listings/interconnects-aural-thrills-audio-silver-braid-w-silver-teflon-rca-read-this-before-you-buy-2015-01-03-cables-75042-garland-tx


----------



## conquerator2

^ well, with free trial... Gotta say that is fair! Of course, bias is still real


----------



## phile1

like others i have no money to spend in golden cable... i don't care about cables....
Could we go back to our thread : the U12.
Any other good feedback ? or any disappointment ?
thanks


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> ^ well, with free trial... Gotta say that is fair! Of course, bias is still real


 

 I once read that 30% of pharmaceuticals benefit are from placebo effect - maybe a mind/body interaction,  I don't know.  But they sure work for me.
  
 Maybe I can hire a hypnotist to in-plant my Nissan drives like a Porche.  Ever see the movie Shallow Hal
  
 I also have these - a little cheaper, not quite as airy but really sound good.  $134/pr 1 meter.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aural-Thrills-Self-Powered-Active-Shield-Cable-1m-Silver-Teflon-Connectors-/251779920158?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a9f40b11e
  
 These are their top of the line - not 4x better.  But better- especially with the right tubes (I can hear a difference in different tubes - Mullards are my favorites).
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aural-Thrills-tube-powered-active-shield-300b-274b-kt88-home-theater-/251779919344?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a9f40adf0


----------



## menkromsen

Dude - this is not a cable-discussion thread!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 If you really must talk about how cables changes sound and so on - keep it to USB-cables (which could or could not make a difference to the Gustard U12)
  
  
 Back to topic; I'm getting my unit on monday.Have been using a M2Tech for quite some time now so it will be cool to hear the difference!


----------



## rb2013

menkromsen said:


> Dude - this is not a cable-discussion thread!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry you are right - no more cable discussions here.  I will start a new thread on the Aural Thrills stuff.


----------



## Greggo

New to this thread and have just skimmed through it all... still having trouble wrapping my head around applications for U12 other than just providing USB conversion to SPDIF?  Curious as I just got a Gustard H10 amp and I am now considering a X12 DAC as well.
  
 Do most of you look at something like the U12 because you have DACs that do not have a USB input, or do you look for even better USB performance from the U12 and then optical or coax digital inputs to your DAC?
  
 I have a system scenario that I was wondering if some of you could help me with, deciding if the U12 is a good fit:
  
 I have a medium sized basement family room, iMac based home studio on one wall, digital active stereo system on another, and then a listening chair with a headphone studio next to it on yet another wall.  I have a MacBook Air that I can keep near the listening chair, and planned on running USB into Gustard DAC and amp that I would also keep next to the chair.  About 10 feet away is the iMac on a desk and I would like to be able to use that as a source as well, so I was thinking about a U12 sitting next to it, with optical output running to the miniDSP 4x10 HD across the room that drives the stereo system, and then digital coax running along the other wall and into the Gustard DAC at my listening chair for those times when I don't want to bring the MacBook Air downstairs for whatever reason.  And then I have a separate USB feed from the iMac into the studio interface I use (Focusrite Scarlett 18i20) for times when I want to listen to headphones while sitting at the iMac.
  
 Does this all make sense?  Would the U12 be a good way to feed USB audio into my miniDSP and also run to the X12 (future purchase, currently using NAD D1050 as a DAC)?  Kind of like a digital audio stream router?


----------



## rb2013

greggo said:


> New to this thread and have just skimmed through it all... still having trouble wrapping my head around applications for U12 other than just providing USB conversion to SPDIF?  Curious as I just got a Gustard H10 amp and I am now considering a X12 DAC as well.
> 
> Do most of you look at something like the U12 because you have DACs that do not have a USB input, or do you look for even better USB performance from the U12 and then optical or coax digital inputs to your DAC?


 
 For me I'm looking for the best USB converter at reasonable cost.


----------



## Greggo

rb2013 said:


> For me I'm looking for the best USB converter at reasonable cost.


 
 and is that because your DAC does not have USB input, or it does have USB and since it also has other digital inputs you are using the U12 because you think it is superior to yours DAC's onboard USB input?
  
 Any feedback on my application scenario?  Does it make sense to use the U12 as a digital audio stream router?  Do all outputs work at once by the way?  Even without my family room studio scenario, it seems like it would be a cool way to review equipment, to be able to feed the same USB audio stream to multiple DACs at the same time.


----------



## rb2013

greggo said:


> and is that because your DAC does not have USB input, or it does have USB and since it also has other digital inputs you are using the U12 because you think it is superior to yours DAC's onboard USB input?
> 
> Any feedback on my application scenario?  Does it make sense to use the U12 as a digital audio stream router?  Do all outputs work at once by the way?  Even without my family room studio scenario, it seems like it would be a cool way to review equipment, to be able to feed the same USB audio stream to multiple DACs at the same time.


 

 Well I have many DAC's - some with USB and others without.  My best DAC's do not.  I like the flexibility to change DAC's and USB interfaces separately.  If you read the thread starting page - I mentioned all the USB interfaces I have tried.  The U12 is the best sounding I have owned so far.
  
 I'm not familiar with the U12 optical SPDIF, or HDMI, as I use the coax SPDIF only.  Maybe others can comment.
  
 Good Luck!


----------



## Greggo

rb2013 said:


> Well I have many DAC's - some with USB and others without.  My best DAC's do not.  I like the flexibility to change DAC's and USB interfaces separately.  If you read the thread starting page - I mentioned all the USB interfaces I have tried.  The U12 is the best sounding I have owned so far.
> 
> I'm not familiar with the U12 optical SPDIF, or HDMI, as I use the coax SPDIF only.  Maybe others can comment.
> 
> Good Luck!


 
 Thanks!  and thank you for the reply.  I will keep reading about the U12 as it sounds like it would be a worthwhile purchase even if I do nothing else but use it as a USB converter to run SPDIF into my miniDSP 4x10 Hd.


----------



## Benny-x

greggo said:


> New to this thread and have just skimmed through it all... still having trouble wrapping my head around applications for U12 other than just providing USB conversion to SPDIF?  Curious as I just got a Gustard H10 amp and I am now considering a X12 DAC as well.
> 
> ...
> 
> Does this all make sense?  Would the U12 be a good way to feed USB audio into my miniDSP and also run to the X12 (future purchase, currently using NAD D1050 as a DAC)?  Kind of like a digital audio stream router?


 
 I think that's a pretty odd use scenerio and not what the convertor was meant for. And to confirm, the U12 does send to all outputs all the time, so you'd be turning off gear somewhere in your chain unless you wanted to hear music coming from different set ups all at once.
  
 The X12 you're talking about has the same USB input board as the U12; though it's a scaled down version that can only send the converted digital signal via internal I2s to the X12's ESS9018 DAC chip. Besides looking to extend how far away you could place the X12 by running AES vs. USB, there's no real reason to get the U12 for it. 
  
 Then you also just mentioned it'd be cool to compare 2 pieces at the same time, and that's possible, but you'd also run into having to compare the different outputs of the U12 against non-matching inputs on the DACs. So it wouldn't be a real 1 vs. 1 type thing because the not only would the DACs be different, but the broadcasting and receiving protocols would be too.
  
 And then even besides that, I don't think it's common practice to run multiple outputs from a convertor connected to gear at the same time. Amps and pre-amps, yes, but not USB to whatever convertors as many manufacturers say it either adds noise to the signal or strains the power output of the device. 
  
 Oh, and lastly, I have USB input on my PS-Audio PWD Mkii, and it's known to be a pretty decent one at that. However, the USB on the U12 uses the most current USB audio chip by XMOS, has the 2nd most recent Thesycon drivers, and also has HDMI-I2s output, which is regarded as the best input on my DAC. The Gustard U12 also offers a separated, isolated, powered, and contained USB to whatever system that I can tweak and modify to hopefully perform at higher levels that I could do with the internal USB on my DAC as it's integrated into the component.


----------



## Greggo

Thanks so much for the detailed reply.  Since I do have a need for USB conversion to the miniDSP 4x10 Hd driving my main stereo system, it would be cool to just have the one extra output to run to my headphone rig half way across the room.  If I end up going with the X12, then I still use the onboard USB input when I have my laptop with me, but I could then use the digital coax cable from U12 to X12 when I want to use the iMac as a source for the headphone rig.
  
 Does the U12 allow you to turn each output on or off, or are they all always on?  I will have to find out if having both toslink optical and AES/EBU plugged in at the same time will pose any compromise.  The priority for me would be U12 to miniDSP first and foremost, as having U12 to headphone rig's X12 or X20 would just be frosting on the cake.


----------



## sbgk

been running the u12 for nearly a week and it's sounding better by the day, think it's superb, wouldn't have believed it could make such a difference. using aes into nad m51.
  
 was running off normal power supply and there was a big step up when plugged into my conditioned supply, so must be sensitive.


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> been running the u12 for nearly a week and it's sounding better by the day, think it's superb, wouldn't have believed it could make such a difference. using aes into nad m51.
> 
> was running off normal power supply and there was a big step up when plugged into my conditioned supply, so must be sensitive.


 

 Good Feedback - your NAD had built in USB? Which conditioner are you using?


----------



## phile1

hi sbgk,
thanks for your report. 
You used directly the usb input of the n51 before using the u12 or you already used the aes input ?
the usb input of the n51w is said to be not as good as the aes/coax, thus switching from usb to aes can explain partly the improvement.


----------



## sbgk

rb2013 said:


> Good Feedback - your NAD had built in USB? Which conditioner are you using?


 
 yes nad has usb, but always use external convertors mf vlink 192 and cuinas
  
 conditioner is a trichord power block 1000, no longer available
  
 the xmos chip seems to be a bit of a breakthrough in sq, I'm quite surprised. Am going to get the x12 to use the i2s connection and dsd.


----------



## sbgk

phile1 said:


> hi sbgk,
> thanks for your report.
> You used directly the usb input of the n51 before using the u12 or you already used the aes input ?
> the usb input of the n51w is said to be not as good as the aes/coax, thus switching from usb to aes can explain partly the improvement.


 
  
 came from cuinas using coax, never used the nad usb as it was so poor.


----------



## phile1

Thanks sbgk.
sorry, i just see you already mentioned it in your previous post... i should have put my glasses on


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> yes nad has usb, but always use external convertors mf vlink 192 and cuinas
> 
> conditioner is a trichord power block 1000, no longer available
> 
> the xmos chip seems to be a bit of a breakthrough in sq, I'm quite surprised. Am going to get the x12 to use the i2s connection and dsd.


 

 +1 I'm with you there - the Gustard has surprised me as well.  It seems to have greater detail and very smooth presentation versus my previous best USB interfaces the Musiland USB 03.  And the Musiland's were better then the M2Tech Hiface and Evo, and the Audiophileo2 I had owned before.
  
 I have a very nice analog rig to directly compare against as a reference point.
  
 I'm wondering if the Gustard U12 is so good, it can not be improved on much with today's technology.
  
 I did a few upgrades internally, and swapped the power cord for a Shunyata Venom.  I have it plugged into a Richard Gray Pro400.  I might try a few other conditioners.  Of course it also has responded (mostly better clarity and smoothness) to better USB and Coax SPDIF cables (I won't anymore on that sore subject! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


----------



## sbgk

rb2013 said:


> +1 I'm with you there - the Gustard has surprised me as well.  It seems to have greater detail and very smooth presentation versus my previous best USB interfaces the Musiland USB 03.  And the Musiland's were better then the M2Tech Hiface and Evo, and the Audiophileo2 I had owned before.
> 
> I have a very nice analog rig to directly compare against as a reference point.
> 
> ...


 
  
 using a spare trichord power lead I had
  
 don't know about smooth - that indicates loss of detail to me, whereas I am hearing more detail, I would say it just sounds effortless which allows the music to be enjoyed more.
  
 what has changed from the u10, is the xmos chip different in the u12 ?
  
 would be interested in more details about what components to remove/upgrade to improve the ps, have a teradak 9 v supply which could be used and have swapped capacitors before.


----------



## Gibalok

Definetely, such a sensitive components like DACs and convertors need clean power supply. Power amps need also clean power supply but in addition to "clean" it should be enough to power the amp.
  
 Im using Isotek Premium Cable for U12 (not much pricey) but good enough and isolated from external RF noise. And it is connected to separated 200W channel of my power system. (another 1700w and 500w are used for Power amps and DAC accordingly).
  
 Here is my setup. 
  
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckq328AIwtI&feature=youtu.be


----------



## sbgk

I just use a printer cable at the moment
  
 I would say the U12 has turned my nad m51 into a mini lampizator, almost a warm sound and very good snap and focus that's just great to listen to and which I'd been struggling to hear before. Think I'm just going to remove the transformer from the housing as that's worked for me before and is half way to an external ps.
  
 the ifi nano uses the same xmos chip, has anyone with a u12 heard an ifi nano, how do they compare ?


----------



## conquerator2

sbgk said:


> I just use a printer cable at the moment
> 
> I would say the U12 has turned my nad m51 into a mini lampizator, almost a warm sound and very good snap and focus that's just great to listen to and which I'd been struggling to hear before. Think I'm just going to remove the transformer from the housing as that's worked for me before and is half way to an external ps.
> 
> the ifi nano uses the same xmos chip, has anyone with a u12 heard an ifi nano, how do they compare ?


 
 I have not.
  
 And I am still waiting for my U12. If it does to my setup the same thing it does to yours, then that's be amazing as that's exactly what I'd want. I'd then even keep my NFB-7, because all it needs is a bit of warmness.


----------



## sbgk

conquerator2 said:


> I have not.
> 
> And I am still waiting for my U12. If it does to my setup the same thing it does to yours, then that's be amazing as that's exactly what I'd want. I'd then even keep my NFB-7, because all it needs is a bit of warmness.


 
  
 don't think I'm saying anything different to what others have already said/found, so it should be a revelation to you.


----------



## phile1

i finally ordered mine this morning. I'll give my feedback compared to my interface from diyinhk
I ordered especially because my interface is for sure the weak point of my system. So if it's far better for 143eur... oups ! Bargain!


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> using a spare trichord power lead I had
> 
> don't know about smooth - that indicates loss of detail to me, whereas I am hearing more detail, I would say it just sounds effortless which allows the music to be enjoyed more.
> 
> ...


 

 Well when I say 'smooth' it implies warmth and effortlessness, no loss of detail - I've experienced greater detail fortunately!  It's like some form of distortion has been lifted.


----------



## soundify

Can I please check if anyone knows if the digital coaxial output can do dsd 64 and dsd128 over coaxial through DOP?


----------



## Benny-x

soundify said:


> Can I please check if anyone knows if the digital coaxial output can do dsd 64 and dsd128 over coaxial through DOP?


 
 Yes, the U12 convertor can, but that's only a piece of what needs to be considered. The software(player program) and your DAC are what really need to be able to accept DSD 64-128 via DoP. Players will need the appropriate plugin or native ability(which one are you using?). Since DSD64 can go in a 24/176.2 PCM container it shouldn't be too hard for an applicable DAC, but DSD128 is twice that bandwidth and I don't know any DAC that can take that via SPDIF.


----------



## sbgk

soundify said:


> Can I please check if anyone knows if the digital coaxial output can do dsd 64 and dsd128 over coaxial through DOP?


 
 this from the x12 specs
  
Digital Input Format Support：

Coaxial：

PCM：16-24bit /44.1、48、88.2、96、176.4、192 kHz

DOP：DOP64

 

optical:  

PCM:16-24bit /44.1、48、88.2、96、176.4、192 kHz

DOPOP64


 AES/EBU：

PCM:16-24bit /44.1、48、88.2、96、176.4、192 kHz

DOPOP64

 

IIS:

PCM:16-32bit /44.1、48、88.2、96、176.4、192 、352.8、384kHz

DSDSD64、DSD128

DOPOP64、DOP128
  

USB： 16-32bit / 44.1、48、88.2、96、176.4、192、352.8、384 kHz
 DSDx64(2.8224MHz)、DSDx128(5.6448MHz)


----------



## soundify

benny-x said:


> Yes, the U12 convertor can, but that's only a piece of what needs to be considered. The software(player program) and your DAC are what really need to be able to accept DSD 64-128 via DoP. Players will need the appropriate plugin or native ability(which one are you using?). Since DSD64 can go in a 24/176.2 PCM container it shouldn't be too hard for an applicable DAC, but DSD128 is twice that bandwidth and I don't know any DAC that can take that via SPDIF.




Thanks for your response. I'm using chord Hugo which based on my knowledge, should accept dsd 128 over DOP. As for software, I'm using windows 8, can I ask what is the best player to use? I also have JPLAY.


----------



## Benny-x

Copied from the Audio-gd Master 7 thread, as it's relevant here too.
  
 Quote:


dacladder said:


> Both SDATA and LRCLK are inverted at the U12 HDMI output.  You could try to find a HDMI cable with removable connector headshells and reverse the SDATA and LRCLK connections on one side to correct.  I found this pinout from an Ebay offer for the U12.


 
 Either that pin-out sheet is wrong or it doesn't mater. I have found the same one in all the Gustard U12 listings, but I also own the Gustard and just tried it out :-D
  
 I've got the U12 and finally found my HDMI-I2s cable and hooked it up to my PWD Mkii and it worked fine. No static, no noise, black background, music sounded clean and clear. I was listening via AES last night and it shared all the same stability. My first impression in just A/B'ing them now is that I2s sounds clearer and blacker, but the bass was still really nice. It's BRAAAAND new and my system is in no state for any information beyond that, but I'm happy that it works. 
  
 I was pissed after reading the pin-out sheet a couple days ago as I bought the U12 basically just for its I2s connection to my PWD Mkii. I have no idea what the effect of mismatched pins would be, like as long as it wasn't the pins all over the place and just different polarity like it's saying we have here, but I can say that it's functioning fine. 
  
 So, on that note, can anyone here share what would happen if the SDATA and LRCLK pinouts had reverse polarity on the sending and receiving ends? Would it play at all?
  
 And since according to DACLadder the Audio-gd HDMI-I2s pinout is the same as PS-Audio's, we've got another player in the USB->I2s category now


----------



## Benny-x

soundify said:


> Thanks for your response. I'm using chord Hugo which based on my knowledge, should accept dsd 128 over DOP. As for software, I'm using windows 8, can I ask what is the best player to use? I also have JPLAY.


 
 Lots of different players and approaches, no real "best one" unfortunately.
  
 I've got WS2012 R2 on 2 computers in a Dual Jplay PC setup; so a processor(ControlPC) and a streamer(AudioPC). For the setup they're both running AudiophileOptimizer, Jplay, and JRiver. You've got to do some tweeks to get JRiver to play nicely with Jplay, but it works. Admittedly though, that system is in piece right now as I'm overhauling components and making dedicated computerts for each role; so I'm now running off a W7 laptop when I want to check anything out.
  
 And I took a look at the specs page for the Hugo and you're absolutely right, it says it can take DSD64 and DSD128 via DoP over SPDIF. First I've ever seen where an SPDIF input can go up to 384KHz! Nice!


----------



## sbgk

soundify said:


> Thanks for your response. I'm using chord Hugo which based on my knowledge, should accept dsd 128 over DOP. As for software, I'm using windows 8, can I ask what is the best player to use? I also have JPLAY.


 
  
 I posted the X12 formats above and it has dop 128 only available via IIS, presumably the same chip is used in the x12 and u12, I can't see why they would have given u12 dop 128 capability over coax when it's not available in the x12. perhaps need to ask them directly, or someone can try it.


----------



## soundify

sbgk said:


> I posted the X12 formats above and it has dop 128 only available via IIS, presumably the same chip is used in the x12 and u12, I can't see why they would have given u12 dop 128 capability over coax when it's not available in the x12. perhaps need to ask them directly, or someone can try it.




Thanks for the info. It seems that you are right. Sounded too good to be true initially.


----------



## sbgk

is it usual to have all outputs on all the time, would it benefit the sq if the ones not required were removed/switched off ?


----------



## natra084

Hi guys U12 does it eliminate usb noise.


----------



## Sajk

Tried to run U12 with Daphile (www.daphile.com). I see in Audio device "xCORE USB Audio 2.0", screen display show correct sampling rate ... but no sound at all.
 If somebody use Linux, please share your experience.


----------



## Anda

sajk said:


> Tried to run U12 with Daphile (www.daphile.com). I see in Audio device "xCORE USB Audio 2.0", screen display show correct sampling rate ... but no sound at all.
> If somebody use Linux, please share your experience.


 
  
 The sound device is probably muted. Can you run alsamixer in terminal? If you can, press F6, choose the xCORE and make sure it's unmuted. You do this with the m key.


----------



## antbom

I'm using U12 with Daphile, it works fine.
 In Daphile -> Settings -> Audio Devices -> xCORE USB Audio 2.0 enable both mixer hw 0 and mixer hw 1 , than save and restart.


----------



## natra084

Hi guys U12 does it eliminate usb noise.


----------



## Benny-x

sbgk said:


> is it usual to have all outputs on all the time, would it benefit the sq if the ones not required were removed/switched off ?


 
 Yes, this is quite normal for all outputs to be active on a USB->multi-output convertor. Other big names that work the same way are EA - Off Ramp 5, Audiobyte - Hydra series, Musiland USD, and Channel Islands Audio - Transient MKII. 
  
 I have no idea if it's the additional complexity, additional noise created by the switch itself, or lack of need by the general buyer of this type of device, but it seems to be par for the course for all outputs to be active at the same time. And also par for the course that it's recommended that only 1 output be used at a time.
  
 I'm sure there are other convertors that don't have all outputs active simultaneously, but none that I've cared very much about or that I remember creating much of a stir anywhere.


----------



## Benny-x

natra084 said:


> Hi guys U12 does it eliminate usb noise.


 
 2 posts asking the same exact question within 3 hours? This isn't an instant messaging program, it's a forum. 
  
 Be more specific about what you mean. Please don't respond with "noise on the USB line".


----------



## natra084

benny-x said:


> 2 posts asking the same exact question within 3 hours? This isn't an instant messaging program, it's a forum.
> 
> Be more specific about what you mean. Please don't respond with "noise on the USB line".



the problem I'm having is when I turn up the volume at max then I hear some humming noise but when I disconnect the USB cable then it is dead quiet (without music playing)


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> is it usual to have all outputs on all the time, would it benefit the sq if the ones not required were removed/switched off ?


 

 One of things I liked about the Musiland USB 3.0 US was their control panel allowed you to turn on and off any of the outputs, as well as control vol and Bal.
  
 It was a very nice and sable piece of software.  Allowed adjusting of the buffer setting in the ASIO and had a readout for input and output sampling rates.


----------



## rb2013

natra084 said:


> the problem I'm having is when I turn up the volume at max then I hear some humming noise but when I disconnect the USB cable then it is dead quiet (without music playing)


 

 It may be coming from your computer - possibly a ground loop hum of some kind.  Try all your other USB slots and see if that goes away.  Which vol are turning up to max - your amp?


----------



## Benny-x

natra084 said:


> the problem I'm having is when I turn up the volume at max then I hear some humming noise but when I disconnect the USB cable then it is dead quiet (without music playing)


 
 See, that's the kind of explanation we needed 
  
 That's not what people consider "USB noise". What we call USB noise is generally considered digital harshness and/or jitter, which is transmitted from the PC by using the USB protocol. There are many products to combat this, like the Schiit - Wyrd, iFi Audio - iPurifier, and Ultra-Fi - Aubisque USB filter.
  
 But what you're talking about, that's a ground loop as far as I understand. Unfortunately that's the end of what I know about the topic and I'll have to let someone else join in about how to combat that.


----------



## natra084

benny-x said:


> See, that's the kind of explanation we needed
> 
> That's not what people consider "USB noise". What we call USB noise is generally considered digital harshness and/or jitter, which is transmitted from the PC by using the USB protocol. There are many products to combat this, like the Schiit - Wyrd, iFi Audio - iPurifier, and Ultra-Fi - Aubisque USB filter.
> 
> But what you're talking about, that's a ground loop as far as I understand. Unfortunately that's the end of what I know about the topic and I'll have to let someone else join in about how to combat that.



Im sorry I mean a hising noise


----------



## Sajk

antbom said:


> I'm using U12 with Daphile, it works fine.
> In Daphile -> Settings -> Audio Devices -> xCORE USB Audio 2.0 enable both mixer hw 0 and mixer hw 1 , than save and restart.Thank


 
 Thanks a lot! Working now!


----------



## sbgk

benny-x said:


> Yes, this is quite normal for all outputs to be active on a USB->multi-output convertor. Other big names that work the same way are EA - Off Ramp 5, Audiobyte - Hydra series, Musiland USD, and Channel Islands Audio - Transient MKII.
> 
> I have no idea if it's the additional complexity, additional noise created by the switch itself, or lack of need by the general buyer of this type of device, but it seems to be par for the course for all outputs to be active at the same time. And also par for the course that it's recommended that only 1 output be used at a time.
> 
> I'm sure there are other convertors that don't have all outputs active simultaneously, but none that I've cared very much about or that I remember creating much of a stir anywhere.


 
  
 I removed the toslink sender from a squeezebox touch and thought it improved the sq, so might consider doing the same to the u12 as I only need the aes/ebu connection.


----------



## preproman

Where can I find the Windows driver for this?
  
 Found the driver.  However, is there a compatibility mode?  I'm running Windows server 2012 R2.


----------



## Anda

preproman said:


> Found the driver.  However, is there a compatibility mode?  I'm running Windows server 2012 R2.


 
  
 AFAIK it's USB Audio Class 2 only.


----------



## Sajk

preproman said:


> Where can I find the Windows driver for this?
> 
> Found the driver.  However, is there a compatibility mode?  I'm running Windows server 2012 R2.


 
 Also use Windows server 2012 R2 (Audiophile core edition) + JRiver, recommend to use WaveIO driver modified by Chodi:
 http://www.speedyshare.com/RXMDH/Luckit-2.23-for-Gustard-U12.rar
 With this driver you have ability to adjust the latency.
  
 Besides you need to enable unsigned driver installations.
 1. Open a Command Prompt (Run as Administrator)
 2. Enter the following command and press Enter:
 BCDEDIT /Set LoadOptions DDISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS
 3. If this completes successfully, enter the next command:
 BCDEDIT /Set TESTSIGNING ON
 4. Once competed, restart the server


----------



## preproman

sajk said:


> Also use Windows server 2012 R2 (Audiophile core edition) + JRiver, recommend to use WaveIO driver modified by Chodi:
> http://www.speedyshare.com/RXMDH/Luckit-2.23-for-Gustard-U12.rar
> With this driver you have ability to adjust the latency.
> 
> ...


 
 I did all the steps - but it still failed at the end.  Take a look
  
 ------------------------------------------------------------
 Preparation.
 ------------------------------------------------------------
 Uninstalling 'USB Audio Driver for WaveIO v2.23.0'.
 This may take some time to complete. Please wait ...
 Preparing installation.
 This may take some time to complete. Please wait ...
  
 ------------------------------------------------------------
 Installation.
 ------------------------------------------------------------
 Adding uninstallation support ...
 Create folder: C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver
 Create folder: C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver
 Created uninstaller: C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\uninstall.exe
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\setup.bmp
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\setup.ini
 Output folder: C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIO.inf
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIOks.inf
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIO_x64.sys
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIOks_x64.sys
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIO.cat
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIOks.cat
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\tusbaudioapi.dll
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIOasio.dll
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIOasio_x64.dll
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\tusbaudioapi.dll
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\custom.ini
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\TUSBAudioCplApp.xml
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\TUSBAudioSpy.exe
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\TUSBAudioDfu.exe
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\TUSBAudioDfu.xml
 Copy to C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\TUSBAudioCplApp.exe
 Execute: regsvr32 /s "C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\tusbaudioapi.dll"
 Execute: regsvr32 /s "C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIOasio.dll"
 Execute: regsvr32 /s "C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIOasio_x64.dll"
 Create shortcut: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\TUSBAudio Control Panel.lnk
 Preinstalling drivers.
 This may take some time to complete. Please wait ...
  
*ERROR: Pre-installation of 'C:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\WaveIOks.inf' failed.
 Please run setup again!
  
 ==============================
 Installation failed.
 ==============================*


----------



## Sajk

Strange...
 I've installed without any problem with following steps:
 1. Return Windows server 2012 R2 to the standard mode with GUI
 2. Remove Gustard native drivers through control panel.
 3. cmd (Run as Administrator)
 4. Enter the following command and press Enter:
 BCDEDIT /Set LoadOptions DDISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS
 5. If this completes successfully, enter the next command:
 BCDEDIT /Set TESTSIGNING ON
 6. Reboot server
 7. You have to see in the lower-right corner of the desktop *"Test Mode"*
 8. Install modified driver
 9. Run c:\Program Files\WaveIO\USBAudio_Driver\TUSBAudioCplApp.exe and set "Minimal latency"
 10. Return back to the core mode.


----------



## rb2013

preproman said:


> I did all the steps - but it still failed at the end.  Take a look
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Preparation.
> ...


 

 I had some issues installing Chodi's Thesycon drivers on Win 7 64bit.  Be sure to completely uninstall any other legancy ASIO drivers on the machine.


----------



## Failed Engineer

Preproman - I had the exact same result when trying to install Chodi's driver on a Windows 8 machine.  This was on a system with no XMOS driver ever installed previously.  I gave up and installed the stock driver.


----------



## preproman

Where is the stock driver?


----------



## rb2013

failed engineer said:


> Preproman - I had the exact same result when trying to install Chodi's driver on a Windows 8 machine.  This was on a system with no XMOS driver ever installed previously.  I gave up and installed the stock driver.


 

 I was able to install the 'Chodi' driver set after a bit of tweeking. See page 3 posts #45 & #46
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/30


----------



## rb2013

preproman said:


> Where is the stock driver?


 

 Mine came on one of those mini CD's from the factory


----------



## preproman

rb2013 said:


> Mine came on one of those mini CD's from the factory


 

 Yeah mine did to.  How the hell do you use that thing?


----------



## rb2013

preproman said:


> Yeah mine did to.  How the hell do you use that thing?


 

 Run as Admin - just the normal driver install disc.  Be sure the unit is plugged in and powered up


----------



## Chodi

On windows server to install the mod drivers you would have to follow Sajk setup on the previous page as windows server will not let you install  drivers that are unsigned. On windows 7 or 8 standard installation I am sure they will install as I have gotten several comments from users. I think for those having problems you may have antivirus software or firewall software blocking the installation when it is trying to write to the registry. I know that Comodo firewall for example will block this unless you disable it during install or tell it to allow the install. This is not so much an issue with this particular waveIO driver as it is a windows issue with any unsigned driver. If anyone is having a problem with install temporarily disabling any antivirus or firewall software during installation really should work. If it does not then there is a driver conflict with something else installed on the computer. Afraid I can't help with that since it would be specific to your particular computer setup with whatever software you have installed.
  
 I would point out that the procedure outlined by Sajk is also valid for windows 7 so if all else fails and you are having problems to install on windows 7 you can try to disable driver signing test as he describes. Unfortunately depending on the version of windows and whatever updates the individual user may have installed, the procedure for install of these drivers may vary. Some may even have a problem installing the standard stripped down version provided on that little cd with the product for all the same reasons. If anyone is still having problems they can pm me.


----------



## rurika

I just bought U12 from ebay yesterday.
Will try i2s from hdmi with W4S dac2 dsdse.


----------



## preproman

chodi said:


> On windows server to install the mod drivers you would have to follow Sajk setup on the previous page as windows server will not let you install  drivers that are unsigned. On windows 7 or 8 standard installation I am sure they will install as I have gotten several comments from users. I think for those having problems you may have antivirus software or firewall software blocking the installation when it is trying to write to the registry. I know that Comodo firewall for example will block this unless you disable it during install or tell it to allow the install. This is not so much an issue with this particular waveIO driver as it is a windows issue with any unsigned driver. If anyone is having a problem with install temporarily disabling any antivirus or firewall software during installation really should work. If it does not then there is a driver conflict with something else installed on the computer. Afraid I can't help with that since it would be specific to your particular computer setup with whatever software you have installed.
> 
> I would point out that the procedure outlined by Sajk is also valid for windows 7 so if all else fails and you are having problems to install on windows 7 you can try to disable driver signing test as he describes. Unfortunately depending on the version of windows and whatever updates the individual user may have installed, the procedure for install of these drivers may vary. Some may even have a problem installing the standard stripped down version provided on that little cd with the product for all the same reasons. If anyone is still having problems they can pm me.


 

 Yeah I'm still having trouble even on a Windows 8.1 PC.
  
 It installed fine on a Windows 7 laptop.
  
 Could it be the Texas Instrument USB 3.0 Host Controller Driver for the SOtM USB PCIE card?  That's the only thing different from the Windows 7 laptop.


----------



## Chodi

preproman said:


> Yeah I'm still having trouble even on a Windows 8.1 PC.
> 
> It installed fine on a Windows 7 laptop.
> 
> Could it be the Texas Instrument USB 3.0 Host Controller Driver for the SOtM USB PCIE card?  That's the only thing different from the Windows 7 laptop.


 
 Yes it is very likely that driver. It is certainly a driver conflict. You could test that theory by going into device manager and temporarily disable SOtM card. Then see if the WaveIO driver set will install. You may still have a problem even if it does with both active. I have no experience with windows 8 so I'm afraid I can't advise further. On windows driver conflicts are no fun at all. You might want to check to see if there is a newer version of the driver for that SOtM  card.


----------



## phile1

hi prepoman, 
 I have win8.1 as well, I faced the same trouble with the driver of my DXIO interface. The trouble was due to driver signature.
 I had to restart the computer following this procedure (see link), to force Windows not to check the signature of the driver.
 Thus : you restart the PC like explained in the link below, and you should be able to install proprely the driver. Still when you install the driver, Windows will pop up to warn you that the driver signature is not verified, you just have to click that "you don't care about its remarks and YES you want to & will install this bloody driver" and windows will let do it 
  
 http://www.howtogeek.com/167723/how-to-disable-driver-signature-verification-on-64-bit-windows-8.1-so-that-you-can-install-unsigned-drivers/
  
 hope it will work, it should.
 Rgds


----------



## Voltot

phile1 said:


> hi prepoman,
> I have win8.1 as well, I faced the same trouble with the driver of my DXIO interface. The trouble was due to driver signature.
> I had to restart the computer following this procedure (see link), to force Windows not to check the signature of the driver.
> Thus : you restart the PC like explained in the link below, and you should be able to install proprely the driver. Still when you install the driver, Windows will pop up to warn you that the driver signature is not verified, you just have to click that "you don't care about its remarks and YES you want to & will install this bloody driver" and windows will let do it
> ...


 
 Thanks a lot. It works!


----------



## rb2013

rurika said:


> I just bought U12 from ebay yesterday.
> Will try i2s from hdmi with W4S dac2 dsdse.


 Nice! What are you using now? Does the W4S have a USB input?


----------



## rurika

My dac has usb input but it is amanero.
So, I want to try xmos.


----------



## Failed Engineer

phile1, your instructions worked to install Chodi's WaveIO driver.  Thanks!


----------



## rynopr

Would it be overkill to try with either the Gustard or Audio-gd di-2014 one of those Elijah audio type power drain cables to either a teradak supply or battery power supply. I know they do a much better job with the power than cheaper usb to spdif, but was wondering if that would even raise them up another notch. Opinions/experience?


Thanks
Ryno


----------



## Chodi

failed engineer said:


> phile1, your instructions worked to install Chodi's WaveIO driver.  Thanks!


 
 Very glad to hear that you guys were able to resolve this! The power of the forum guys working together. It is a real force.


----------



## motberg

Hi and thanks again for all the tips, I just ordered one of these... if anyone is using JPlay successfully can you please advise which driver ?
 Thanks..


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Hi and thanks again for all the tips, I just ordered one of these... if anyone is using JPlay successfully can you please advise which driver ?
> Thanks..


 

 I was running JPlay with my Musiland 03's without much problems.  But to get the WaveIO driver to install I had to uninstall JPlay.  I still haven't tried to reinstall it yet.  Just so happy with the sound of the U12 - I don't want to jinx it.  Actually, I'm quite satisfied with the SQ of the U12 - it has a natural ease to the sound - like some hidden distortion has been lifted.  For the first time my digital system is at a par with my analog one.  I partly attribute this to the Gustard and a major part to the incredibly musical, transparent and dynamic LiteDAC60 heavily moded.  Cheers to true R2R DACs and Mundorf Silver/Oil caps! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
  
 Down the road I may give JPlay a try with the Gustard - when I'm in an experimental and patient mood.  You know how temperamental JPlay can be - can you say 'bluescreen'.


----------



## conquerator2

My U12 came in today and I believe with the latest driver on the disc [v 2.23]. I ordered from kiduit_online on amazon.uk
 Will test the unit thoroughly when I receive the Gungnir [just sold my NFB-7]


----------



## rb2013

A recent post over on the HifiDuino blog regarding the XMOS clocking
  


> in response to *BlgGear*:
> 
> 
> > _ Yes, that is an “interesting device”. Would like to know whether the PFGA does reclocking. The XMOS is already capable of handling the USB side and in passing PCM and DSD data. The Musiland devices also use an FPGA, but they do not have an XMOS. I can see you’ve done extensive mods already…
> ...


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> My U12 came in today and I believe with the latest driver on the disc [v 2.23]. I ordered from kiduit_online on amazon.uk
> Will test the unit thoroughly when I receive the Gungnir [just sold my NFB-7]


 

 It will be interesting to see how the U12 stacks up to the Gungir internal USB as well.
  


> *USB 2.0, 24/192, Async, Completely Buzzword Compliant *
> Gungnir’s Gen 2 USB input is one of the most advanced implementations available today, featuring a high-speed USB 2.0 interface (not 1.1) and asynchronous data transfer to 24/192, including 24/176, based on the C-Media CM6631A USB receiver. No drivers are required for Macs, iPhones, iPads, and popular Linux distros like Ubuntu, and Windows drivers are downloadable for Windows 8, 7, and XP.


----------



## conquerator2

And to the Audio gd DI.


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> And to the Audio gd DI.


 

 Yes!  Most importantly


----------



## rb2013

Here it comes!  Windows 10 - Ugg!  Wonder what the audio stack will look like?  Maybe Asyn 2.0 naive support -that would nice.  USB 3.0?
  
 http://www.techradar.com/us/news/software/operating-systems/windows-10-release-date-price-news-and-features-1029245


----------



## motberg

rb2013 said:


> I was running JPlay with my Musiland 03's without much problems.  But to get the WaveIO driver to install I had to uninstall JPlay.  I still haven't tried to reinstall it yet.  Just so happy with the sound of the U12 - I don't want to jinx it.  Actually, I'm quite satisfied with the SQ of the U12 - it has a natural ease to the sound - like some hidden distortion has been lifted.  For the first time my digital system is at a par with my analog one.  I partly attribute this to the Gustard and a major part to the incredibly musical, transparent and dynamic LiteDAC60 heavily moded.  Cheers to true R2R DACs and Mundorf Silver/Oil caps!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hi, many thanks for your driver config... I have been lucky with JPlay, for 2 years or so, no BSOD.. but I have a pretty simple server with just WIN2012 Server, AO, and JPlay.
 I use the JPlay Mini ap in Hibernate mode and only play .wav files.
 I like JPlay for the various engine/buffer options - and actually XMOS is pretty well received with some very low latencies reported.
  
 Currently for DDC I am using a Teradak 9V 1A LPS powering an iFi iUSB ->adapter-> Wyred 4 Sound uLink (also XMOS).
 It actually sounds great via BNC to a Audio GD NOS1704 DAC.. the ULink is rock-solid with JPlay..
  
 Since the W4S SQ is rated a little below Audiophilleo, I am hoping the Gustard will be a step up, but mainly I am thinking to upgrade to a M7 DAC soon and so will ask Kingwa to match the Gustard HDMI pinouts.. (..I will wait for the Schiit Yggy reviews before pulling the trigger on the M7 though..)
  
 Thanks again - if any other Gustard folks are using JPlay, please chime-in... in any case I will report back in a week or two with the Gustard to W4S comparison and also the Gustard driver JPlay compatibility..


----------



## Barbapappa

Coming from a musiland usd 01 I have been listening to this gustard u12 with standard driver for about 2 weeks now. Based on these 2 weeks I have noticed a definitive improvement over the musiland in terms of resolution. I say this based on the fact that I find it easier to recognize instruments in the background and am better able to make a distinction between instruments / voices (for example a choir). I will try Chodi's driver next - thanks!  
  
 My setup is a passive win 8.1 htpc with foobar wasapi -> u12 -> smsl sd-793 (dir9001 - pcm1793 - dual LME49710HA) with linear ps -> kingrex pre-amp -> dual vertical bi-amp sure tpa3116 -> kef iq5se's.


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Hi, many thanks for your driver config... I have been lucky with JPlay, for 2 years or so, no BSOD.. but I have a pretty simple server with just WIN2012 Server, AO, and JPlay.
> I use the JPlay Mini ap in Hibernate mode and only play .wav files.
> I like JPlay for the various engine/buffer options - and actually XMOS is pretty well received with some very low latencies reported.
> 
> ...


 

 Long live the R2R PCM 1704 - a true 24bit laser precision resistor ladder DAC chip!
  
 I ran JPlay with the 'beach' engine and a large buffer - with Foobar 2000v1.3.4 and SoX


----------



## sbgk

just got the x12 to partner the u12, think they go together well, connected via i2s, very live sound with plenty of insight, looking forward to it improving after burn in. tried the onboard usb and sounded a bit thin, guess because it's new, but it's also limited in output formats with only i2s giving dsd 128, surprised at how good the bass is straight out of the box.


----------



## abartels

Hi all,
  
 Has somebody compared the U12 with the DI-2014 yet? I'm VERY curious which one is the better one,,,,,
  
 Planning on buying an M7 or NFB-7, both with i2S (HDMI version), any pros or/and cons icw U12 / DI-2014?
  
  
 Regards,
 Alex Bartels


----------



## Anda

sbgk said:


> just got the x12 to partner the u12, think they go together well, connected via i2s, very live sound with plenty of insight, looking forward to it improving after burn in. tried the onboard usb and sounded a bit thin, guess because it's new, but it's also limited in output formats with only i2s giving dsd 128, surprised at how good the bass is straight out of the box.


 
 Congrats! Would be interesting with a more in-depth comparison when you got the time


----------



## conquerator2

abartels said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Has somebody compared the U12 with the DI-2014 yet? I'm VERY curious which one is the better one,,,,,
> 
> ...


 
 I will compare the two when my DAC arrives.


----------



## rmp459

Used the regular XMOS v2.23 driver with Win 8.1 - had zero issues.  Love the sound of it after several months of use.  Blows the Yulong U18 I was using out of the water (at least to my ears) and eliminated my driver issues.  The yulong would often lock up and require me to reconnect it over and over to get the device to work.


----------



## abartels

conquerator2 said:


> I will compare the two when my DAC arrives.


 
 Okay, i'm very curious! You connect it to M7 and Gungnir, or just gungnir? You sold your NFB-7 (M7 also?), NFB-7 not the real deal?


----------



## abartels

rmp459 said:


> Used the regular XMOS v2.23 driver with Win 8.1 - had zero issues.  Love the sound of it after several months of use.  Blows the Yulong U18 I was using out of the water (at least to my ears) and eliminated my driver issues.  The yulong would often lock up and require me to reconnect it over and over to get the device to work.


 
 Yulong U18 uses the Tenor chip, which is not as good as Xmos or CM6631A in my oppinion. Glad the U18 sounds better


----------



## conquerator2

abartels said:


> Okay, i'm very curious! You connect it to M7 and Gungnir, or just gungnir? You sold your NFB-7 (M7 also?), NFB-7 not the real deal?


 
  
 I sold my NFB-7 recently, so I will test with the Gungnir when it arrives. It was really good, but too analytic for me. The details were awesome though, best I've heard! But Gungnir should be more musical, I'll see and try to compare a bit by memory. Never owned the M7, but with the OR5 it is pretty darn awesome, or so I heard. 
 So it will be VIA vs CM vs XMOS implementation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


abartels said:


> Yulong U18 uses the Tenor chip, which is not as good as Xmos or CM6631A in my oppinion. Glad the U18 sounds better


 
 I still bet it is more stable than the VIA one... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The NFB-7 had no problems at all though, solid product.


----------



## abartels

conquerator2 said:


> I sold my NFB-7 recently, so I will test with the Gungnir when it arrives. It was really good, but too analytic for me. The details were awesome though, best I've heard! But Gungnir should be more musical, I'll see and try to compare a bit by memory. Never owned the M7, but with the OR5 it is pretty darn awesome, or so I heard.
> So it will be VIA vs CM vs XMOS implementation
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'm using a cheap CM6631A based converter UAU06A , use it on battery power, must say it performs outstanding on Server 2012R2.
 Had some issues installing it but finally found a good driver for it and works like a charm 
 Just use SPDIF-Coax for the moment, but will test I2S later when i have dac with I2S connection.


----------



## Barbapappa

The display of my month old u12 turned defective today. It does not display the numbers correctly anymore. I tried restarting it a couple of times to no avail. Sound is still great though, so purely a cosmetic problem. I have send the ebay seller a message explaining the problem. Did anybody else have this problem and if so, what solution did the seller offer? 
  
I would add pictures but I don't think I have enough posts yet.


----------



## Chodi

barbapappa said:


> The display of my month old u12 turned defective today. It does not display the numbers correctly anymore. I tried restarting it a couple of times to no avail. Sound is still great though, so purely a cosmetic problem. I have send the ebay seller a message explaining the problem. Did anybody else have this problem and if so, what solution did the seller offer?
> 
> I would add pictures but I don't think I have enough posts yet.


 

 Often this problem comes from a loose connect to the display. You might take a look and see if that connection is solidly in place. Of course, if it soldered to the pcb then there is not much you can do.


----------



## Voltot

Mates! New Windows 10 build 9926 improve sound quality, I compared with Win 8.1. More clarity, more soundstage.


----------



## Chodi

voltot said:


> Mates! New Windows 10 build 9926 improve sound quality, I compared with Win 8.1. More clarity, more soundstage.


 
 Where did you get Windows 10? I though that was not released yet?


----------



## Voltot

Windows 10 Technical Preview build 9926 Its beta build. Сan be found everywhere, use google. Chodi your driver for gustard works fine there.
  
 http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?LinkId=522100   for x64
 http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?LinkId=522101   for x86


----------



## Chodi

voltot said:


> Windows 10 Technical Preview build 9926 Its beta build. Сan be found everywhere, use google. Chodi your driver for gustard works fine there.
> 
> http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?LinkId=522100   for x64
> http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?LinkId=522101   for x86


 
 Great to hear that the driver works. I wonder how the compatibility will be with existing software? I still remember the pain of the transition to Windows 7. I  think I will wait for the released version and hopefully they will issue an update so you can just install it over Windows 7 and keep all your programs. That may be asking too much but I hate the thought of re-installing everything. I did read that they have reduced the background operations in Windows 10 so it might sound better, I completely passed over Windows 8 and 8.1. All the touch screen and mobile stuff is useless to me. I don't see getting a windows based phone anytime soon. I'm stuck on Android. I am still looking forward to seeing what Google comes up with their new OS. Pretty clever guys over at Google.


----------



## rb2013

voltot said:


> Mates! New Windows 10 build 9926 improve sound quality, I compared with Win 8.1. More clarity, more soundstage.


+1


----------



## sbgk

I'm using the latest build of win 10 and u12 with standard drivers 3.23
  
 I can't seem to get exclusive use of the u12 ie I can play other sounds while music is playing and also adjust the volume.
  
 wasapi exclusive/event and ks should make the device exclusive, also looked at the device using ksstudio and there are 3 nodes dac, mute, volume, am wondering if these are implemented in the xmos chip.
  
 have tried jrmc and other players and also refreshed with latest win 10 build.
  
 Does anyone have exclusive access ?


----------



## shipus90

A useful theard.


----------



## natra084

I just received my U12 and X12 have hooked it up to my iMac but I have a question. with my other dac ifi nano when I hooked it up to my iMac I couldn't change the volume on my iMac but with the u12 and X12 I can change the volume on my iMac is that normal.
 Which outputs get you the best sound quality on the U12.


----------



## sbgk

natra084 said:


> I just received my U12 and X12 have hooked it up to my iMac but I have a question. with my other dac ifi nano when I hooked it up to my iMac I couldn't change the volume on my iMac but with the u12 and X12 I can change the volume on my iMac is that normal.
> Which outputs get you the best sound quality on the U12.


 
 can't see passed i2s if you have u12 and x12, it's the only way to get dsd64 dop and dsd128 dop as well


----------



## abartels

natra084 said:


> I just received my U12 and X12 have hooked it up to my iMac but I have a question. with my other dac ifi nano when I hooked it up to my iMac I couldn't change the volume on my iMac but with the u12 and X12 I can change the volume on my iMac is that normal.
> Which outputs get you the best sound quality on the U12.


 
 I2S thru HDMI is best!


----------



## natra084

abartels said:


> I2S thru HDMI is best!



thanks guys what about the first question


----------



## abartels

natra084 said:


> I just received my U12 and X12 have hooked it up to my iMac but I have a question. with my other dac ifi nano when I hooked it up to my iMac I couldn't change the volume on my iMac but with the u12 and X12 I can change the volume on my iMac is that normal.
> Which outputs get you the best sound quality on the U12.


 
 About volume control, that depends on the drivers i suppose, but, i'm not sure since i'm "a windows guy" and not specifically used to macs.
 I'm not sure if it influences SQ, best is to test it, if you can hear any degrading in SQ when decreasing volume on your mac (and increase volume on your amp), then you know it's best
 not to use volume control on your Mac, if you can't hear any difference then i suppose it's ok or?


----------



## abartels

I ordered my U12 today at Ebay (pollychen0306), can't wait to test it


----------



## phile1

hi
 I received mine today.
 Bought on ebay at sep_store ; 2weeks from order to delivery near Paris (France), not bad, well packed. Fine. The power cord was dead, I replaced with a basic spare one.
 My point about the Gustard U12 was : is it better than my DXIO PRO (old version vs the current one available) ? => yes !
 Less digital for sure, thus more natural. As said before sound is rather smooth and enable "easy listining", that's what I was looking for 
 The U12 remains nearly cold, no overheating, that's a good point.
 This report is done after 5hours burning. Is really really better after 50h as mentioned above ? because I already find the interface worth the price 
 When I say "worth the price" it is pretty much relative because I tested only the DXIO, no interface more expensive than the U12


----------



## conquerator2

Just waiting for the Gungnir...
The DI is about twice as big. It also has more inputs (coax, toslink) and one extra output (BNC) though it lacks toslink out.
I will compare U12 vs DI vs Schiit's USB gen 2.


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> Just waiting for the Gungnir...
> The DI is about twice as big. It also has more inputs (coax, toslink) and one extra output (BNC) though it lacks toslink out.
> I will compare U12 vs DI vs Schiit's USB gen 2.


 
  
 Still keep checking back to see what you think


----------



## preproman

conquerator2 said:


> Just waiting for the Gungnir...
> The DI is about twice as big. It also has more inputs (coax, toslink) and one extra output (BNC) though it lacks toslink out.
> I will compare U12 vs DI vs Schiit's USB gen 2.


 
  
  
 Damn Luke,  That DI is big,  I didn't know it was that big.  Must be the beefed up PSUs in there.


----------



## phile1

After nearly 24h burning the u12 becomes nicely smooth and detailed 
Can i expect more in the coming hours ?!


----------



## natra084

Hi I have a problem with the U12 I played some dsd tracks but now the unit is stuck to 352.8 (I'm using a Mac)and everytime I try to play some YouTube videos I can't hear anything is it possible to reset this unit.


----------



## Anda

natra084 said:


> Hi I have a problem with the U12 I played some dsd tracks but now the unit is stuck to 352.8 (I'm using a Mac)and everytime I try to play some YouTube videos I can't hear anything is it possible to reset this unit.


 
  
 Check your audio settings:

http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/audio-midi-setup-your-macs-secret-sound-manager


----------



## natra084

anda said:


> Check your audio settings:
> 
> http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/audio-midi-setup-your-macs-secret-sound-manager



does the u12 up sample


----------



## Anda

natra084 said:


> does the u12 up sample


 
 no


----------



## CJG888

Your PC can, if you absolutely must...


----------



## rb2013

natra084 said:


> does the u12 up sample


If you are using a PC and Foobar you can try the SSRC (super secret rabbit code) or SoX upsamplers. I have both and love the SoX. Both are free.
Great results taking Redbook up to 192k. Smoother, more dynamic.


----------



## CJG888

Deleted - wrong thread!


----------



## MINORISUKE

I am new here and ordered U12 yesterday from Shenzhenaudio.com.
 Does anybody know whether there is a decoding function of DoP?
 I mean, getting DSD native signal from I2S for DoP input.
 My DAC has I2S/DSD input (RJ45) which accpets PCM and DSD native, but not DoP.
 For DoP, I must use the USB input of the DAC.  Inside there is a DoP USB-I2S/DSD board like Combo384.


----------



## Chodi

minorisuke said:


> I am new here and ordered U12 yesterday from Shenzhenaudio.com.
> Does anybody know whether there is a decoding function of DoP?
> I mean, getting DSD native signal from I2S for DoP input.
> My DAC has I2S/DSD input (RJ45) which accpets PCM and DSD native, but not DoP.
> For DoP, I must use the USB input of the DAC.  Inside there is a DoP USB-I2S/DSD board like Combo384.


 
 What dac are you using? If your dac accepts DSD native why would you want to use DoP? The Combo384 uses native DSD up to DSD256 (they list DSD512 but new firmware will be coming to support that).


----------



## MINORISUKE

DoP is necessary for DSD playback with JPLAY. My DAC is similar to LKS MH-D002 from a small Japanese manufacturer.


----------



## Chodi

minorisuke said:


> DoP is necessary for DSD playback with JPLAY. My DAC is similar to LKS MH-D002 from a small Japanese manufacturer.


 
 I think I know the manufacturer if it is the one I am thinking of they are an oem for LKS they do repackaging and perhaps some other upgrades for sale in Japan. That dac has a usb input and the U12  has a usb output that supports up to 384K so it should be fine for dop if that is your preference. It should work fine with the Jplay driver but I have not had a reason to try it. Maybe someone here has and can comment.


----------



## MINORISUKE

JPLAY requires DSD native as an input, but its output is always DoP.
I am almost sure that U12 accepts upto DSD128 DoP.
My question is whether its output from I2S is DoP or DSD native in this case.


----------



## bwmarrin

U12, vs Wyrd, vs Gungnir, or maybe all combined 
  
 Soo. I've recently done a huge headphone upgrade.  I've gone from some Senn HD280's and a Headroom Total Bithead AMP/DAC to a HD-500, Lyr2, Gungnir, and now Wyrd.
  
  
 It sound great  But, I'm getting static at 65-70% volume and up.  It's not very noticeable at 65% but as you move to 100% it becomes very noticeable.  I'm testing this with no audio playing and when listening to music I don't notice it and I hardly have it over 50% volume on most songs.  But some music that is especially quiet I crank up the knob pretty far and then I notice the static in quiet passages.
  
 I contacted Schiit and worked though a little troubleshooting with them and they said it sounded like a "usb ground loop" issue.  They recommended the Wyrd.  So I got one and installed it this morning and it didn't make any difference at all, or at least not that I can tell.  Same static at 65% or higher volume on my Lyr 2.
  
 So, I'm curious if the U12 might fix this problem and also provide other benefits?  Does anyone know how it's USB interface compares to the Gungnir's (which is supposedly super awesome world changing thingy-ma-bob or something) ? 
  
 Would switching to the U12 and connecting via optical to the Gungnir fix the problem?   (I know that's hard to answer).
  
 Are there some tests or things I could try to help find other possible sources of the noise (I know this is really OT, sorry).
  
 I'm willing to send the Wyrd back and get the U12.  I just hate to buy another thing and find it doesn't help either.  Hoping maybe someone here had some advise or has been able to compare the Wyrd, U12, or Gungnir in some way.
  
 Thanks.


----------



## Chodi

If you are getting static one of your components is defective. Could even be something as simple as a cable but it is surely a defective component. You did not say if you get this static equally through both channels? That would help sort this out. Any component from the computer through the headphones could be the problem but if it is in both channels it is not likely the headphones. I would not suggest spending money on another component until you track down the source of the problem.


----------



## bwmarrin

So, my current chain.  Computer > Wyrd > Gungnir > Lyr 2 > HE-500.
  
 If I unplug the USB cable from my computer, static is gone.
  
 If I unplug the USB cable from the Gungnir, (So, no computer, no Wyrd) the static is gone.
  
 If I leave the Gungnir plugged into the Computer or Wyrd>Computer, but unplug the RCA's from the Gungnir that go into my Lyr 2, the static is gone.
  
 I suppose, this means either the USB connection is causing the static somehow, or the Gungnir itself (or it's USB interface) is causing the static. 
  
 I could take all this stuff home and try using my Oppo or my UMC-200 to see what changes I get mixing things around.


----------



## rb2013

bwmarrin said:


> So, my current chain.  Computer > Wyrd > Gungnir > Lyr 2 > HE-500.
> 
> If I unplug the USB cable from my computer, static is gone.
> 
> ...


 

 Trying the Oppo would be my suggestion, maybe from a cd using SPDIF coax out and then SPDIF optical out.  Into the Gungnir - that will tell you if it's the Gungnir and if it's maybe a problem with it's internal USB board.


----------



## bwmarrin

chodi said:


> If you are getting static one of your components is defective. Could even be something as simple as a cable but it is surely a defective component. You did not say if you get this static equally through both channels? That would help sort this out. Any component from the computer through the headphones could be the problem but if it is in both channels it is not likely the headphones. I would not suggest spending money on another component until you track down the source of the problem.


 
  
 Ah, forgot to mention.
  
 Static comes in on both channels into the headphones.  I'm going to work on trying to test different things and see if I can narrow it down.


----------



## mz2014

Did Anyone heard Athena ?
 http://tw.taobao.com/item/37307269520.htm?spm=a1z3p.7398038.1414651174895.6.vzl1bw&scm=1007.10146.4607.0&id=37307269520&pvid=836669c2-8e48-4ed1-a2a4-96f3cd567302


----------



## rb2013

mz2014 said:


> Did Anyone heard Athena ?
> http://tw.taobao.com/item/37307269520.htm?spm=a1z3p.7398038.1414651174895.6.vzl1bw&scm=1007.10146.4607.0&id=37307269520&pvid=836669c2-8e48-4ed1-a2a4-96f3cd567302


 

 It would be nice to see a photo of the whole board.  From what I can see CM6631A, Murata transformers (oh that will make some people orgasm), can't make out the clocks look like TXCO's, looks like Pannie FCs PS filtering caps.
  
 Interesting - I think the 1680 Yuan works out to around $269 at tody exchange rate.


----------



## rb2013

Speaking of Murata transformers - where are all the big modders who were going do all these extreme mods on the U12 a few months ago(like swap the Pulse's for Murata's).  All I've heard is crickets...


----------



## rurika

Got U12 yesterday. It works with W4S hdmi i2s input (use a regular hdmi cable)
 Took me about 2-3 hours to make Windows 2012 R2 core mode to work with KS (also with jplay dual PC)


----------



## lmitche

Please let us know how the Gustard sounds with W4S HDMI connection compared to SPDIF out.  I am contemplating the same configuration.


----------



## prot

bwmarrin said:


> So, my current chain.  Computer > Wyrd > Gungnir > Lyr 2 > HE-500.
> 
> If I unplug the USB cable from my computer, static is gone.
> 
> ...



Gonna go with Schiit, it sounds like a ground loop. Not cool that they made you buy that wyrd though, that's just bull. 
Had one of those coming from the TVCable, a pretty common source. Subwoofer was humming like crazy. 
You can test by plugin all devices into the same power outlet. Preferably one that does no share the power line with any biggies like fridges, etc.. and iff possible with nothing else. If you have a laptop, leave it on battery. If you do that and hear nada anymore it's prolly a ground loop and you gotta start hunting for it. 
Good luck.


----------



## sbgk

bwmarrin said:


> Ah, forgot to mention.
> 
> Static comes in on both channels into the headphones.  I'm going to work on trying to test different things and see if I can narrow it down.


 
 thought you could stop usb ground loop by cutting screen on receiver end of the usb cable


----------



## prot

sbgk said:


> thought you could stop usb ground loop by cutting screen on receiver end of the usb cable


 
_useless part deleted_
As about the usb cutting solution kinda doubt itll work. Ground loops are tricky and if he has one like mine that wont help. Worth trying prolly. But itll be a temp solution anyway. You have to find it and properly get rid of it otherwise youll have funny issues forever.


----------



## sbgk

prot said:


> IIRC there was a fella with the same nick on CA. Funny guy who thought he could hear 'differences' between identical audio bits. Any similarities or my memory isnt particularly bright anymore?
> As about the usb cutting solution kinda doubt itll work. Ground loops are tricky and if he has one like mine that wont help. Worth trying prolly. But itll be a temp solution anyway. You have to find it and properly get rid of it otherwise youll have funny issues forever.


 
 according to the terms of service you shouldn't post personal attacks, shouldn't discuss bits are bits (except in the sound science forum) and should only use one username so no prot7 etc
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/a/terms-of-service
  
 was sorry to see you banned twice on CA.


----------



## prot

Isess post deleted


----------



## sbgk

prot said:


> I was just talking about someone I met somewhere else and his ideas. Seems to be you. Not sure why are you offended just because I remembered some things you said. But we can just ignore each other, no worries. And funny story, I was not actually banned from CA but that's something between me and some other people.
> Good luck anyway.
> 
> @everyone else. Sorry for these useless posts just some old stuff


 
  
 user prot is banned on CA, no ambiguity there, also user prot7 which you set up after prot was banned. Would appreciate if you just post according to the terms of service.


----------



## prot

Useless post deleted


----------



## sbgk

prot said:


> You are aware I hope that a *forum user* and a *person* are not the same thing. Anyway, how about you forget old grudges which arent eve related to *me* and leave these people have fun with their thread!?


 
 yes, I'm talking about forum user prot on CA who is the same forum user prot on headfi. forum user prot is banned on CA for persistent trolling.
 I'm sorry forum user prot was banned.
 you should know by now that I only deal in facts.


----------



## prot

Useless post deleted.


----------



## sbgk

prot said:


> Ohnwe
> Oh well. As you wish....


 
 just trying to be helpful


----------



## prot

sbgk said:


> just trying to be helpful


Helpful to whom and with what exactly!? Use the PM next time you have such personal issues which are of no interest for other people here. Guess I shoulve done that too from the begining
Sorry everyone for this. Some people wanna solve their personal "facts" on public forums. Just deleted my useless posts. None of that belonged here. Or anywhere else in reality if you ask me. Just move along with the thread.


----------



## sbgk

prot said:


> Helpful to whom and with what exactly!? Use the PM next time you have such personal issues which are of no interest for other people here


 
 why didn't you pm me then ?
  
 that way you wouldn't have contravened 2 of the forum rules with your initial post.


----------



## bwmarrin

prot said:


> Gonna go with Schiit, it sounds like a ground loop. Not cool that they made you buy that wyrd though, that's just bull.
> Had one of those coming from the TVCable, a pretty common source. Subwoofer was humming like crazy.
> You can test by plugin all devices into the same power outlet. Preferably one that does no share the power line with any biggies like fridges, etc.. and iff possible with nothing else. If you have a laptop, leave it on battery. If you do that and hear nada anymore it's prolly a ground loop and you gotta start hunting for it.
> Good luck.


 
  
 After some more testing - it actually looks like it's the Gungnir that's bad.  I lifted the ground on everything and still had the problem.  Took it all home (was at my office) and connected my Lyr2 to my Oppo 105 and it worked fine.  Connected (via coax) the Oppo to the Gungnir -> Lyr2 and the static was back.  They're swapping it out Monday.  I agree about the Wyrd - I plan to return it.


----------



## prot

bwmarrin said:


> After some more testing - it actually looks like it's the Gungnir that's bad.  I lifted the ground on everything and still had the problem.  Took it all home (was at my office) and connected my Lyr2 to my Oppo 105 and it worked fine.  Connected (via coax) the Oppo to the Gungnir -> Lyr2 and the static was back.  They're swapping it out Monday.  I agree about the Wyrd - I plan to return it.



Pretty ugly that you had to go through all this, the issue coulve been solved from the first support call. Anyway, still good that they will exchange the bad components. Have fun.


----------



## rb2013

bwmarrin said:


> After some more testing - it actually looks like it's the Gungnir that's bad.  I lifted the ground on everything and still had the problem.  Took it all home (was at my office) and connected my Lyr2 to my Oppo 105 and it worked fine.  Connected (via coax) the Oppo to the Gungnir -> Lyr2 and the static was back.  They're swapping it out Monday.  I agree about the Wyrd - I plan to return it.


 

 Good to see you identified the problem.  I would still give the Gustard U12 a try.  It's SQ is a very nice improvement.  And it's only $50 more then the Wyrd.


----------



## bwmarrin

rb2013 said:


> Good to see you identified the problem.  I would still give the Gustard U12 a try.  It's SQ is a very nice improvement.  And it's only $50 more then the Wyrd.


 
  
 I'm a bit unsure on the technical side of this.  I only got the Wyrd because Schiit thought I had a USB problem and that they Wyrd might fix it.  But, since it seems I don't have a USB problem at all - I'm going to give Schiit their Wyrd back.
  
 I'm curious to know how the U12 would compare to the Gungnir USB interface but also how it could be different.  If the U12 took the USB single and converted it into COAX which went into the Gungnir, shouldn't the coax digital single be bit perfect to the original audio files on the computer?  Shouldn't they both sound the same as long as in the end, the Gungnir DAC gets the same digital sound info?
  
 I'd hate to have the USB interface (cost $100 extra) in the Gungnir and not even use it.  Maybe I shouldn't have ordered one with it and gone with a separate interface instead..
  
 I'm not sure if Schiit would let me swap out to a non USB Gungnir.  
  
 Has anyone here been able to compare the U12 directly against the Gungnir's USB interface?


----------



## rb2013

bwmarrin said:


> I'm a bit unsure on the technical side of this.  I only got the Wyrd because Schiit thought I had a USB problem and that they Wyrd might fix it.  But, since it seems I don't have a USB problem at all - I'm going to give Schiit their Wyrd back.
> 
> I'm curious to know how the U12 would compare to the Gungnir USB interface but also how it could be different.  If the U12 took the USB single and converted it into COAX which went into the Gungnir, shouldn't the coax digital single be bit perfect to the original audio files on the computer?  Shouldn't they both sound the same as long as in the end, the Gungnir DAC gets the same digital sound info?
> 
> ...


 

 I also recommend going with a seperate USB versus built in - if it's an option.  This way you can keep the better sounding component if you decide to change things down the road.  Flexibility.
  
 Nothing is truly bit perfect - all kinds of issues including jitter, re-clocking (related), power supply grunge, etc...
  
 I've had several USB interfaces and they all sounded different.  The U12 is the best so far - and 1/5th the cost of my M2Tech EVO with the Acopian linear PS.


----------



## conquerator2

bwmarrin said:


> I'm a bit unsure on the technical side of this.  I only got the Wyrd because Schiit thought I had a USB problem and that they Wyrd might fix it.  But, since it seems I don't have a USB problem at all - I'm going to give Schiit their Wyrd back.
> 
> I'm curious to know how the U12 would compare to the Gungnir USB interface but also how it could be different.  If the U12 took the USB single and converted it into COAX which went into the Gungnir, shouldn't the coax digital single be bit perfect to the original audio files on the computer?  Shouldn't they both sound the same as long as in the end, the Gungnir DAC gets the same digital sound info?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, with some luck I will finally receive my Gungnir this week, with the USB gen 2 and would definitely compare it to the U12 [and DI-V2014]. If you can wait and have a few more days to spare, I'd report back.
 Though if the Wyrd did not fix the issue, there's good chance that the U12 won't either... Just saying. There's also a good chance that the Gungnir's USB implementation is just as good as an external >300$ converter would be and then it won't be money well spent.
  
 Schiit-Europe took 2 weeks to ship the Gung FYI... I am going nuts over how it could possibly take that long to send a stocked item -_-


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> I also recommend going with a seperate USB versus built in - if it's an option.  This way you can keep the better sounding component if you decide to change things down the road.  Flexibility.
> 
> Nothing is truly bit perfect - all kinds of issues including jitter, re-clocking (related), power supply grunge, etc...
> 
> I've had several USB interfaces and they all sounded different.  The U12 is the best so far - and 1/5th the cost of my M2Tech EVO with the Acopian linear PS.


 
 Haven't heard Schiit's USB implementation yet, but I honestly doubt it'd be left to dust by the U12/DI-V2014. Won't know until I try obviously, but people seem to like Schiit's USB. Certainly will be interesting.


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Haven't heard Schiit's USB implementation yet, but I honestly doubt it'd be left to dust by the U12/DI-V2014. Won't know until I try obviously, but people seem to like Schiit's USB. Certainly will be interesting.


 

 Hard to say - not doubting Schiit's engineering prowess - I love their Lyr.  I guess only hearing the two in comparison would determine it.  If you buy on Ebay you can always return it I guess.  The downside with the U12 is the need for a decent spdif coax cable to connect it to the Gungnir.


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> Hard to say - not doubting Schiit's engineering prowess - I love their Lyr.  I guess only hearing the two in comparison would determine it.  If you buy on Ebay you can always return it I guess.  The downside with the U12 is the need for a decent spdif coax cable to connect it to the Gungnir.


 
 Wouldn't Toslink be better than coax?
 I have a nice coax cable but was wondering whether optical wouldn't be better...
 From the DI-V2014, I'd certainly use the BNC socket no question.


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Wouldn't Toslink be better than coax?
> I have a nice coax cable but was wondering whether optical wouldn't be better...
> From the DI-V2014, I'd certainly use the BNC socket no question.


 

 Not really -toslink is limited in bandwidth and has higher jitter.  The electro-optical converters at this price level are not very good.  The issue of galvatic isolation is not really a concern as the U12 has an independent (from the PC USB) power source.  BNC/AES may be better depending on the length of your cable.
  
 Every A/B comparison I have done comparing coax to optical - coax has been the hands down winner.  HDMI/i2s - that's a different matter.  I do not have a DAC with HDMI inputs to test.
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=S/PDIF
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I²S


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> Not really -toslink is limited in bandwidth and has higher jitter.  The electro-optical converters at this price level are not very good.  The issue of galvatic isolation is not really a concern as the U12 has an independent (from the PC USB) power source.  BNC/AES may be better depending on the length of your cable.
> 
> Every A/B comparison I have done comparing coax to optical - coax has been the hands down winner.  HDMI/i2s - that's a different matter.  I do not have a DAC with HDMI inputs to test.
> 
> ...


 
 Ok, good to know. I'll use coax. Optical is already accounted for for gaming anyway, unless DI-V2014's receiver does a better job, but that's still out there.
 Seems like my Gungnir shipped last Friday so should be any day now, hopefully.


----------



## conquerator2

Well, finally... I'll compare them when the Gungnir is burned-in, in the following days. Initial impressions are that the Gungnir USB is pretty good and there's no noise.


----------



## bwmarrin

conquerator2 said:


> Well, with some luck I will finally receive my Gungnir this week, with the USB gen 2 and would definitely compare it to the U12 [and DI-V2014]. If you can wait and have a few more days to spare, I'd report back.
> Though if the Wyrd did not fix the issue, there's good chance that the U12 won't either... Just saying. There's also a good chance that the Gungnir's USB implementation is just as good as an external >300$ converter would be and then it won't be money well spent.
> 
> Schiit-Europe took 2 weeks to ship the Gung FYI... I am going nuts over how it could possibly take that long to send a stocked item -_-


 

 The problem I had (That the Wyrd didn't fix) was a bad Gungnir - so it's being replaced.  I already have a USB version of the Gungnir so that's what they'll be sending me.  I suppose if the U12 was a big improvement I could ask that I get a non-USB version and spend that $100 on the U12 but then I need another interconnect, another power cable, etc.. I'm hesitent to think I'll notice a difference as I haven't been able to successfully hear a lot of the differences many people on here claim are night and day.  So maybe my hearing just isn't too good


----------



## jmissias

buy a digital interface or a new DAC?  
 Hello! guys,
  
 I want to change my current music source in CD player to the computer.
 My current dac USB implementation is poor. I contacted the manufacturer and he recommends using some SPDIF / USB interface for coaxial.
  
 It's worth investing in Gustard  U12 /Audio-gd DI-2014 or buy an new upgraded DAC?
  
 Technical specification of my current DAC:
 Resolution (Bits) and maximum range of sampling frequencies
 XLR AES / EBU, RCA coaxial and Toslink Óptica-- 24bit - 28 KHz to 108 KHz
 USB-- 16bit - 32KHz to 48KHz


----------



## rb2013

jmissias said:


> buy a digital interface or a new DAC?
> Hello! guys,
> 
> I want to change my current music source in CD player to the computer.
> ...


 
 New DAC for sure.  Technical specs on a DAC mean very little as to how it sounds.  They all have incredible specs.  You should see the ones on my USB 3.0 Musiland - 384K/32 bit - .01ppm clocks, etc...


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> Well, finally... I'll compare them when the Gungnir is burned-in, in the following days. Initial impressions are that the Gungnir USB is pretty good and there's no noise.


 
  
 The suspense builds! 
  
  
 Any chance you got to hear a Mjolnir? If so any reason you picked the SA31 over it. I figure the HE560 might fair better with the Mjolnir than the HE500 and HE6 did. Added bonus, the Mjolnir Gungnir stack would look sheeeeexy.


----------



## elwappo99

jmissias said:


> buy a digital interface or a new DAC?
> Hello! guys,
> 
> I want to change my current music source in CD player to the computer.
> ...


 
  
 What DAC is it? Since the Gustard runs in the $150-$200 range, it's almost better to put that money towards a new DAC, but depends on how good your DAC is to start.


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> The suspense builds!
> 
> 
> Any chance you got to hear a Mjolnir? If so any reason you picked the SA31 over it. I figure the HE560 might fair better with the Mjolnir than the HE500 and HE6 did. Added bonus, the Mjolnir Gungnir stack would look sheeeeexy.




Well, the Mjolnir is on the brighter side I believe.
While the SA31SE is warmish-neutral... Plus I was a big audio-gd fan back then and was not interested in the Schiit.
Besides, I think the Gung - SA31SE is a great pairing, would even work well with the HE-1000 I reckon, if I manage to snatch a review sample... 
Anyway, a Mjolnir anytime soon is unlikely. It is more likely for me to jump up to the Raggy/Yggy stack. But that's months away.


----------



## jmissias

elwappo99 said:


> What DAC is it? Since the Gustard runs in the $150-$200 range, it's almost better to put that money towards a new DAC, but depends on how good your DAC is to start.


 
  
 is a Brazilian brand, has 2 internal DACs Burr-Brown, 1 independent per channel.
 Highlight the excellent articulation and bass extension, by a musicality that kept me alert to sound, no ear fatigue.Very good harmonic body. Soundstage has a nice sense of ambience and reality.


----------



## prot

jmissias said:


> is a Brazilian brand, has 2 internal DACs Burr-Brown, 1 independent per channel.
> 
> Highlight the excellent articulation and bass extension, by a musicality that kept me alert to sound, no ear fatigue.Very good harmonic body. Soundstage has a nice sense of ambience and reality.



Sounds like you enjoy the sound of that DAC. In that case just buy one of those usb-spdif interfaces. No need to pay $500+ for a new DAC


----------



## jmissias

prot said:


> Sounds like you enjoy the sound of that DAC. In that case just buy one of those usb-spdif interfaces. No need to pay $500+ for a new DAC


 
 After describe the sound of my DAC in the previous post, concludes stay with him too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Now is choosing between Gustard U12 and the Audio-gd DI-2014. I want to wait for the review of conquerator2


----------



## conquerator2

^ OK


----------



## conquerator2

Well, I had some time to compare. Unfortunately, the DI-V2014 has been giving me trouble with its USB input lately. I suspect the USB is either malfunctioning or overheating... My recent Audio-gd experiences have gone for the worse as far as reliability goes, unfortunately [as far as their 500$ and under units go, anyway... No issue with the NFB-7!]... Either way, it worked correctly for some time today and so I compared the three [Note: the other inputs work correctly, so it is just the USB input/module/whatever]. I used native ASIO drivers for all three units. I want to point out that the headphone, amplifier and DACs make the most of the sound, but if someone needs a quality USB-to-XYZ converter, then it certainly is a worthwhile investment.
 First and foremost, the USB implementation in the Gungnir deserves special mention as it rendered both converters obsolete in my case. Yes, it is that good and the difference between the three is more so in tonality than anything else. Gungnir will always sound like a Gungnir of course [and so will the SA31SE amp and the HE-560 headphone] but there were some differences as listed below:
  
 Gungnir USB - Sounds terrific really. Very dynamic sound but still plenty detailed with a nice smooth treble. The bass is the most impactful of the three and has nice texture. The midrange is slightly forward but is mostly neutral and well rendered. Imaging and soundstage was excellent. No noise floor at all. Overall, I am very happy with the way the Gen 2 performed and certainly give Schiit applause for what they achieved with it.
  
 DI-V2014 - slightly brighter, harsher, airier and more analytic. Bass is a bit tighter but with comparable, slightly lesser impact. Great treble extension and energy, while remaining reasonably smooth throughout [the least smooth to my ears but still fairly good nonetheless]. Might be slightly superior in imaging and soundstaging but just slightly [due to more treble energy]. Zero noise. This is a great audiophile converter that offers extra connectivity compared to the U12 but for now the software is the least optimized for sure. I had no trouble switching between Gung and U12 instantaneously. The DI did too but after an hour or so it started acting funny. Hope it is just my unit though. Overall, would be recommended, provided it works right for you. Latest drivers seemed to have fixed it.
  
 U12 - smoothest of the three but still sounds very nice. Bass is more similar to Gung with just a teeny less impact, Midrange is very smooth. Treble is also the smoothest but doesn't lack much energy compared to the two. Great smooth vocals too! The smoothest of the bunch. Doesn't do any wrongs but might be too smooth for some. Imaging and soundstage comparable to the others. Hassle-free operation and certainly beats the DI in this. A neat, little unit that works as it should! No noise either.
  
 Overall, all three units have comparable performance with some slight tonality deviations. The DI-2014 would be my pick as the cleanest and most detailed of the three, while the U12 is the smoothest and most natural. The Gung sounds in between and is IMO the best value, closely followed by the U12, which is then still rather closely followed by the DI. I have no hesitation recommending either, provided it has just what you need for your system.
  
 Ranking:
  
 Bass:
 Impact - Gung > U12 > DI
 Tightness - DI > U12 > Gung
  
 Midrange:
 Smoothness: U12 > Gung > DI
 Energy: DI > Gung > U12
  
 Treble:
 Energy: DI > Gung > U12
 Smoothness: U12 > Gung > DI
  
 Soundstage/Imaging: DI > U12 = Gung
  
 Reliability: Gung = U12 > DI
  
 Value for $: Gung > U12 > DI
  
 Personal preference: Gung = DI = U12
  
 Recommendation:
 Yes, all three.
  
 DI - for warm to neutral systems, not recommended for bright ones. Great USB/optical/coax to BNC/coax/HDMI [or RJ45 ethernet] converter.
 Gung - recommended for neutral-warm neutral and bright, not recommended for very warm systems. Very capable input, not requiring any additional help.
 U12 - recommended for most systems, not recommended for very laid-back or very smooth ones. Great USB to coax/optical/HDMI converter.
  
 If any questions remain, I'll try to answer them to my best knowledge 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## jmissias

conquerator2 said:


> Well, I had some time to compare. Unfortunately, the DI-V2014 has been giving me trouble with its USB input lately. I suspect the USB is either malfunctioning or overheating... My recent Audio-gd experiences have gone for the worse as far as reliability goes, unfortunately [as far as their 500$ and under units go, anyway... No issue with the NFB-7!]... Either way, it worked correctly for some time today and so I compared the three [Note: the other inputs work correctly, so it is just the USB input/module/whatever]. I used native ASIO drivers for all three units. I want to point out that the headphone, amplifier and DACs make the most of the sound, but if someone needs a quality USB-to-XYZ converter, then it certainly is a worthwhile investment.
> First and foremost, the USB implementation in the Gungnir deserves special mention as it rendered both converters obsolete in my case. Yes, it is that good and the difference between the three is more so in tonality than anything else. Gungnir will always sound like a Gungnir of course [and so will the SA31SE amp and the HE-560 headphone] but there were some differences as listed below:
> 
> Gungnir USB - Sounds terrific really. Very dynamic sound but still plenty detailed with a nice smooth treble. The bass is the most impactful of the three and has nice texture. The midrange is slightly forward but is mostly neutral and well rendered. Imaging and soundstage was excellent. No noise floor at all. Overall, I am very happy with the way the Gen 2 performed and certainly give Schiit applause for what they achieved with it.
> ...


 
  
 Beautiful review! conquerator2
 In your setup you use a USB power Isolator as:
 HIFIMEDIY USB ISOLATOR (http://goo.gl/mi42i9) or schiit Wyrd (http://goo.gl/LWrtCO)?
  
 PS:
 In my current setup, I have a sony blu ray player with coaxial output I use it as a source of CD, (sony-> DAC-> AMP> headset).
 If your want to continue utilziar it as a source, and the computer, the DI-2014 would be the natual choice, is not it?


----------



## conquerator2

jmissias said:


> Beautiful review! conquerator2
> In your setup you use a USB power Isolator as:
> HIFIMEDIY USB ISOLATOR (http://goo.gl/mi42i9) or schiit Wyrd (http://goo.gl/LWrtCO)?
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you. Yes I use the Schiit Wyrd, forgot to mention it.
 Both the DI and U12 would work.
 What inputs/outputs does your Sony CD player has?
 You can just add the PC as a second source, sure.
 The U12 should be a good choice


----------



## jmissias

conquerator2 said:


> Thank you. Yes I use the Schiit Wyrd, forgot to mention it.
> Both the DI and U12 would work.
> What inputs/outputs does your Sony CD player has?
> You can just add the PC as a second source, sure.
> The U12 should be a good choice


 
  
 is similar like this (http://goo.gl/ZfieR5), Optical and Coaxial SPIDIF-out, HDMI-out.
 You know the USB HIFIMEDIY ISOLATOR (http://goo.gl/mi42i9)? it is much cheaper than the schiit Wyrd. I think it must have the same purpose am I correct?


----------



## bwmarrin

conquerator2 said:


> ... If any questions remain, I'll try to answer them to my best knowledge
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks a lot for the review conquerator2.  Gives me some confidence that I can be happy with my Gungnir without absolutely needing to put a different USB interface on it   I've been busy and haven't got it mailed back yet so I need to get that done so I can hopefully get a new one that is problem-free.   I assume with your Gungnir, with your amp turned up and no music playing you don't hear a back ground static, do you?  Even at 100%?
  
 I still have my Wyrd and I'm not sure if I should keep it or send it back too. (I only got it as a possible fix to the static problem)


----------



## bwmarrin

jmissias said:


> is similar like this (http://goo.gl/ZfieR5), Optical and Coaxial SPIDIF-out, HDMI-out.
> You know the USB HIFIMEDIY ISOLATOR (http://goo.gl/mi42i9)? it is much cheaper than the schiit Wyrd. I think it must have the same purpose am I correct?


 
  
 Looks like the HIFIMEDIY is only USB 1.0 and doesn't support 24/192khz audio so it would limit the input ability of the Gungnir DAC. 
  
 I'm not sure which work better but with the Wyrd it has it's own power source instead of just "cleaning up" the USB power source.  I'm no electrical engineer so I don't know which is better but I wonder if having a total separate power might be best.
  
 I also wonder if either are even needed at all, unless you actually have a specific problem caused by the USB port.  -shrug-


----------



## bwmarrin

conquerator2 said:


> Thank you. Yes I use the Schiit Wyrd, forgot to mention it.
> Both the DI and U12 would work.
> What inputs/outputs does your Sony CD player has?
> You can just add the PC as a second source, sure.
> The U12 should be a good choice


 
  
 Can you compare and tell if you notice any difference with / without the Wyrd when using the Gungnir?  Are you using it to solve a specific problem or just feel it provides an improvement?


----------



## jmissias

bwmarrin said:


> Looks like the HIFIMEDIY is only USB 1.0 and doesn't support 24/192khz audio so it would limit the input ability of the Gungnir DAC.
> 
> I'm not sure which work better but with the Wyrd it has it's own power source instead of just "cleaning up" the USB power source.  I'm no electrical engineer so I don't know which is better but I wonder if having a total separate power might be best.
> 
> I also wonder if either are even needed at all, unless you actually have a specific problem caused by the USB port.  -shrug-


 
 Thank U! bwmarrin,
 I had not noticed the limitation of HIFIMEDIY USB ISOLATOR. It really is the question. Is it mandatory for computer audio have in their set a USB POWER ISOLATOR as Wyrd or iFi iUSB


----------



## conquerator2

bwmarrin said:


> Thanks a lot for the review conquerator2.  Gives me some confidence that I can be happy with my Gungnir without absolutely needing to put a different USB interface on it   I've been busy and haven't got it mailed back yet so I need to get that done so I can hopefully get a new one that is problem-free.   *I assume with your Gungnir, with your amp turned up and no music playing you don't hear a back ground static, do you?  Even at 100%?*
> 
> *I still have my Wyrd and I'm not sure if I should keep it or send it back too. (I only got it as a possible fix to the static problem)*


 
  
 The Wyrd actually helps me reduce the USB related noise I had before to a minimum.
 At 80 - 100% there's a very high noise floor already [audible, common to both Wyrd+Gungnir and Gungnir only] BUT without the Wyrd it is also accompanied by a static noise that's coming from the PC, while with the Wyrd it's not.
 The static was always an issue to some degree prior to buying the Wyrd. Now it is not anymore, so Wyrd actually did solve my issue. YMMV.
  


jmissias said:


> *is similar like this (http://goo.gl/ZfieR5), Optical and Coaxial SPIDIF-out, HDMI-out.*
> You know the USB HIFIMEDIY ISOLATOR (http://goo.gl/mi42i9)? it is much cheaper than the schiit Wyrd. I think it must have the same purpose am I correct?


 
 You would need the DI-V2014 for that. the U12 only has USB input, the DI has optical and coaxial inputs too. I don't see a way to connect the U12 to the CD Player?


----------



## bwmarrin

conquerator2 said:


> The Wyrd actually helps me reduce the USB related noise I had before to a minimum.
> At 80 - 100% there's a very high noise floor already [audible, common to both Wyrd+Gungnir and Gungnir only] BUT without the Wyrd it is also accompanied by a static noise that's coming from the PC, while with the Wyrd it's not.
> The static was always an issue to some degree prior to buying the Wyrd. Now it is not anymore, so Wyrd actually did solve my issue. YMMV.


 
  
 To make sure I understand you correctly.  Your Gungnir (with or without the Wyrd) has static/noise at 80-100% volume?
  
 This is the reason Schiit is swapping out my Gungnir and since they're doing that - I would think having that noise is not normal.  Actually, I'd say that noise is not normal even if they didn't agree with me.
  
 When I tested using my Oppo 105D Coax > Gungnir > Lyr2 at 100% volume and no music there's absolutely no noise what-so-ever at all.  When going USB from any source with or without the Wyrd, I get noise at about 65% volume and it progressively gets worse as I raise the volume all the way to 100%.
  
 Just curious, if you connect DI/U12 > Gungnir (via Coax?) > AMP.  Do you still get noise?   Does it go away if you unplug the U12?  If you use another coax/optical source > Gungnir, do you still get noise?  I know that's a lot of work testing so I'll understand if you're busy or otherwise unable to jump though hoops at the whims of some guy on the internet   I'm just curious.


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Well, I had some time to compare. Unfortunately, the DI-V2014 has been giving me trouble with its USB input lately. I suspect the USB is either malfunctioning or overheating... My recent Audio-gd experiences have gone for the worse as far as reliability goes, unfortunately [as far as their 500$ and under units go, anyway... No issue with the NFB-7!]... Either way, it worked correctly for some time today and so I compared the three [Note: the other inputs work correctly, so it is just the USB input/module/whatever]. I used native ASIO drivers for all three units. I want to point out that the headphone, amplifier and DACs make the most of the sound, but if someone needs a quality USB-to-XYZ converter, then it certainly is a worthwhile investment.
> First and foremost, the USB implementation in the Gungnir deserves special mention as it rendered both converters obsolete in my case. Yes, it is that good and the difference between the three is more so in tonality than anything else. Gungnir will always sound like a Gungnir of course [and so will the SA31SE amp and the HE-560 headphone] but there were some differences as listed below:
> 
> Gungnir USB - Sounds terrific really. Very dynamic sound but still plenty detailed with a nice smooth treble. The bass is the most impactful of the three and has nice texture. The midrange is slightly forward but is mostly neutral and well rendered. Imaging and soundstage was excellent. No noise floor at all. Overall, I am very happy with the way the Gen 2 performed and certainly give Schiit applause for what they achieved with it.
> ...


 

 Thanks for the review.  A few questions:  PC or Mac or Linux?  What connection did you use between the U12 and the Gung: spdif coax, optical, BNC or hdmi?  Stock or aftermarket cable for whatever connection you used?


----------



## jmissias

> You would need the DI-V2014 for that. the U12 only has USB input, the DI has optical and coaxial inputs too. I don't see a way to connect the U12 to the CD Player?


 
 I'm sorry my ignorance, my preference to the DI-2014 would be the hypothetical conclusion improvement in output of my palyer "cheap" unconventional (Sony blu ray) for DAC. why I think that the components are compatible to its category "cheap" and that a legitimate cd player better implement the Coaxial SPIDIF output. Or is it a wrong conclusion on my part. DI allows 3 simultaneous input modes controlled by the front selector. Coaxial input, Optical input and USB.


----------



## conquerator2

bwmarrin said:


> To make sure I understand you correctly.  Your Gungnir (with or without the Wyrd) has static/noise at 80-100% volume?
> 
> This is the reason Schiit is swapping out my Gungnir and since they're doing that - I would think having that noise is not normal.  Actually, I'd say that noise is not normal even if they didn't agree with me.
> 
> ...


 
 Give me an hour 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  


rb2013 said:


> Thanks for the review.  A few questions:  PC or Mac or Linux?  What connection did you use between the U12 and the Gung: spdif coax, optical, BNC or hdmi?  Stock or aftermarket cable for whatever connection you used?


 
 PC [Windows 8.1, JRiver MC20, all ASIO modes]. U12 - Gungnir was COAX.DI - Gungnir was BNC. Decent USB cables [Lindy Chrome 1.5M PC - Wyrd + 1M Wyrd - X/Y/Z Converter] and very good interconnects [Canare COAX and BNC cables]. Canare RCA interconnects were used for DAC - amp connections as well.
  
  


jmissias said:


> I'm sorry my ignorance, my preference to the DI-2014 would be the hypothetical conclusion improvement in output of my palyer "cheap" unconventional (Sony blu ray) for DAC. why I think that the components are compatible to its category "cheap" and that a legitimate cd player better implement the Coaxial SPIDIF output. Or is it a wrong conclusion on my part. DI allows 3 simultaneous input modes controlled by the front selector. Coaxial input, Optical input and USB.


 
 That is probably correct. Just to clarify, how do you plan to use the converter with the CD player? PC would be the USB input, correct?


----------



## jmissias

> That is probably correct. Just to clarify, how do you plan to use the converter with the CD player? PC would be the USB input, correct?


 
 Correct! This would:
 CD player "sony blu ray" (Coaxial out) -> DI (Coaxial input) -> DI (Coaxial out) -> my DAC (Coaxial input)
 PC input (USB) -> DI (USB input) -> DI (Coaxial out) -> DAC (Coaxial input).
  
 my DAC:


----------



## conquerator2

jmissias said:


> Correct! This would:
> CD player "sony blu ray" (Coaxial out) -> DI (Coaxial input) -> DI (Coaxial out) -> my DAC (Coaxial input)
> PC input (USB) -> DI (USB input) -> DI (Coaxial out) -> DAC (Coaxial input).
> 
> my DAC:


 
 Yes, that is possible with the DI!
 Not possible with the U12 because it has no COAX input, only output.


----------



## bwmarrin

jmissias said:


> Correct! This would:
> CD player "sony blu ray" (Coaxial out) -> DI (Coaxial input) -> DI (Coaxial out) -> my DAC (Coaxial input)
> PC input (USB) -> DI (USB input) -> DI (Coaxial out) -> DAC (Coaxial input).


 
  
 Just curious, and perhaps I've missed something.  Couldn't you connect the CD player directly to COAX input on your DAC, since it seems to have two inputs?  Then use the U12/DI to as a USB interface to your computer and connect it to the other COAX input on the DAC?


----------



## prot

jmissias said:


> > That is probably correct. Just to clarify, how do you plan to use the converter with the CD player? PC would be the USB input, correct?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Why would anyone do coaxial DI input + coaxial DI output ? That would be an spdif-to-spdif 'converter'. What exactly is the benefit of that setup?!


----------



## jmissias

bwmarrin said:


> Just curious, and perhaps I've missed something.  Couldn't you connect the CD player directly to COAX input on your DAC, since it seems to have two inputs?  Then use the U12/DI to as a USB interface to your computer and connect it to the other COAX input on the DAC?


 
 No, everything works perfectly.
 I want to ride an audio computer and have the flexibility to whenever you want to listen to cd / dvd / blu ray. DI gives this possibility.


----------



## bwmarrin

jmissias said:


> No, everything works perfectly.
> I want to ride an audio computer and have the flexibility to* whenever you want* to listen to cd / dvd / blu ray. DI gives this possibility.


 
  
You mean, whenever you want *without having to hit the input button on the DAC*?  That would make sense.  Otherwise, I think it would all work as I described in my previous post but you would have to change the input on the DAC (press the little button on the front) each time you switched from PC to Disc Player - which could be inconvenient.
  
 **EDIT**
  
 Wait, I just looked at the DI, it has a switch to choose from USB/COAX as well.  So either way you're hitting a switch on something to switch from Disc Player to PC.  Might as well plug the Disc Player into the DAC and keep the path cleaner? and use the input selection button on the DAC to switch from Disc Player to PC.  Maybe I'm still missing something


----------



## jmissias

prot said:


> Why would anyone do coaxial DI input + coaxial DI output ? That would be an spdif-to-spdif 'converter'. What exactly is the benefit of that setup?!


 
 No, it was just an illustration.
 My dac accepts outas entries as seen in the image, it also has an input source selector on the front, see the selector switch between the yellow light and the volume controller.


----------



## conquerator2

bwmarrin said:


> To make sure I understand you correctly.  Your Gungnir (with or without the Wyrd) has static/noise at 80-100% volume?
> 
> This is the reason Schiit is swapping out my Gungnir and since they're doing that - I would think having that noise is not normal.  Actually, I'd say that noise is not normal even if they didn't agree with me.
> 
> ...


 
 Hey,
 So I tested all the different/possible combinations and the conclusion is that whenever it is connected to a POWERED device, without music playing, and the volume is at 80 - 99%, there's noise. However, from my understanding, this is normal. In my case, even with a hard to drive HE-560, this is far beyond any listenable volume. I listen at 40 max and the noise does not kick in until 60 - 70 and doesn't get annoying till 80. Every device has an EMF and at 80% volume the gain is and volume is so high that this simply gets transformed. It is static. It is not a ground loop or USB noise. It is simply a noise that's produced by the source and then amplified by the amplifier that your headphone is connected to.
 When I disconnect the source [PC, USB cable] or a link that connects the two [dosconnect or turn off DI, U12] the noise obviously disappear because the direct connection between the source and the DAC/amp is no more.
 Why the Oppo makes no noise at all I dunno. They make TOTL transports/CD players. Maybe there's some shielding, maybe there's some protection that does not allow the signal to be passed above a certain voltage threshold. Maybe the topology works differently... Dunno. Simply put, at that volume, the noise is normal. It should be long past listening volume, unless the source is weak or your amp is weak.
 So to answer your questions specifically:
  
 'if you connect DI/U12 > Gungnir (via Coax?) > AMP.  Do you still get noise?' - Yes, both COAX [U12] and BNC [DI], as well as USB directly [Gungnir]. The noise floor is about the same on all three.
  
 'Does it go away if you unplug the U12?' - Yes, because there's no more a connection between the PC/XYZ and DAC/amp.
  
 'If you use another coax/optical source > Gungnir, do you still get noise?' - Yes, I used my PS4 as a source. Same amount of noise via optical at the same volume levels as the other connections.
  
 At listening volumes, the noise level is zero and the EMF is zero to hardly hearable when no music is playing. The EMF noise is well-filtered by the Gungnir/Wyrd/DI/U12/etc. all the way up to ~80% then it kicks in, along with the noise floor and whatever noise the connected devices are producing that's silenced up until that point.
  
 Hope this helps 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 If you have any other questions, ask away!
 Cheers/


----------



## conquerator2

bwmarrin said:


> You mean, whenever you want *without having to hit the input button on the DAC*?  That would make sense.  Otherwise, I think it would all work as I described in my previous post but you would have to change the input on the DAC (press the little button on the front) each time you switched from PC to Disc Player - which could be inconvenient.
> 
> **EDIT**
> 
> Wait, I just looked at the DI, it has a switch to choose from USB/COAX as well.  So either way you're hitting a switch on something to switch from Disc Player to PC.  Might as well plug the Disc Player into the DAC and keep the path cleaner? and use the input selection button on the DAC to switch from Disc Player to PC.  Maybe I'm still missing something


 
 Maybe I am wrong, but I thought the primary purpose of the device for him was to add a secondary source, his PC, and this unit is mainly there to clear the signal and perhaps would perform superior-ly to just using the USB input of his DAC?
 The CD Player connection is just an added convenience.
 Maybe I am wrong? OP can clarify on that


----------



## jmissias

bwmarrin said:


> You mean, whenever you want *without having to hit the input button on the DAC*?  That would make sense.  Otherwise, I think it would all work as I described in my previous post but you would have to change the input on the DAC (press the little button on the front) each time you switched from PC to Disc Player - which could be inconvenient.


 

  
 This control can be done in DI since I always use the COAX input in DAC. and my sources right in DI. ie:
 PC-> DI -> DAC
 CD PLAYER -> DI -> DAC
 PS: My dac has a key to select which input want to hear. If I  selected COAX input to the DAC is transparent. Who knows what the current audio source is DI. clear?


----------



## bwmarrin

> ...
> 
> Originally Posted by *conquerator2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Simply put, at that volume, *the noise is normal*. It should be long past listening volume, unless the source is weak or your amp is weak.
> ...


 
  
 Interesting.  It's also odd because when I contacted Schiit they said it wasn't normal to have any noise.  I should try to find some other sources to test with beside my Oppo and see if it's special somehow or if I get the same result with other sources.
  
 You're right, most of my music I wouldn't ever play at 80% volume or higher.  Though, I do have a few songs that are pretty quiet or entire albums for that matter and so I'll turn them up.  For reference, I'm using Lyr 2 amp and HE-500 headphones.


----------



## conquerator2

jmissias said:


> This control can be done in DI since I always use the COAX input in DAC. and my sources right in DI. ie:
> PC-> DI -> DAC
> 
> CD PLAYER -> DI -> DAC
> PS: My dac has a key to select which input want to hear. If I  selected COAX input to the DAC is transparent. Who knows what the current audio source is DI. clear?




Yes, on the DI selector '3' is USB input, '2' is COAX input anf '1' is optical input.
See my previous post if my thoughts are correct


----------



## conquerator2

bwmarrin said:


> Interesting.  It's also odd because when I contacted Schiit they said it wasn't normal to have any noise.  I should try to find some other sources to test with beside my Oppo and see if it's special somehow or if I get the same result with other sources.
> 
> You're right, most of my music I wouldn't ever play at 80% volume or higher.  Though, I do have a few songs that are pretty quiet or entire albums for that matter and so I'll turn them up.  For reference, I'm using Lyr 2 amp and HE-500 headphones.




Ok. I have not really tested it before because I never reached those volumes before. I have some real quiet tracks myself and I never go above 60 on them, especially since the Gungnir puts through a bit more voltage than my previous DAC.
Regardless, we both have orthos, which are even more insensitive to noise. If I put them on at 80% and started playing, both the drivers and my ears would be toast.
Do test different sources if you can and report back. I have no other sources for testing and the PS4 is esentially a small PC.
I have it on 35 via PS4 and it is silent untill 80. My amp has a very high gain (custom 6db low , high 26db) and it stays at 30 - 35 most of the time with all sources on high gain. That is about 40% to 80


----------



## bwmarrin

conquerator2 said:


> Ok. I have not really tested it before because I never reached those volumes before. I have some real quiet tracks myself and I never go above 60 on them, especially since the Gungnir puts through a bit more voltage than my previous DAC.
> Regardless, we both have orthos, which are even more insensitive to noise. If I put them on at 80% and started playing, both the drivers and my ears would be toast.
> Do test different sources if you can and report back. I have no other sources for testing and the PS4 is esentially a small PC.
> I have it on 35 via PS4 and it is silent untill 80. My amp has a very high gain (custom 6db low , high 26db) and it stays at 30 - 35 most of the time with all sources on high gain. That is about 40% to 80


 
  
 Since this is pretty off topic and out of respect to rb2013 and this thread   I've moved my response to the Gungnir thread.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/603219/schiit-gungnir-dac/1695#post_11289784


----------



## conquerator2

Just a heads-up, the issues I've had with the DI's USB... Seemed to have been resolved by installing the latest drivers. I've been using the previous revision drivers and they seemed to work fine but those new ones seem to solve lots of issues people have had with their Audio-gd DACs [blue screens, etc.]
 Well, I'll keep watching for a few days and if things stay fine, then I guess all's good.


----------



## jmissias

conquerator2 said:


> Just a heads-up, the issues I've had with the DI's USB... Seemed to have been resolved by installing the latest drivers. I've been using the previous revision drivers and they seemed to work fine but those new ones seem to solve lots of issues people have had with their Audio-gd DACs [blue screens, etc.]
> Well, I'll keep watching for a few days and if things stay fine, then I guess all's good.


 
 sorry for the indiscretion more you want to have both?


----------



## conquerator2

jmissias said:


> sorry for the indiscretion more you want to have both?


 
 Yes for now. I'll probably sell at least one eventually,


----------



## conquerator2

After some more listening, the DI is indeed harsher than the two. A bit more airy and brighter, with slightly better imaging and easier to pick details, but harsher. Adjusted some things in the original post.


----------



## rb2013

bwmarrin said:


> You mean, whenever you want *without having to hit the input button on the DAC*?  That would make sense.  Otherwise, I think it would all work as I described in my previous post but you would have to change the input on the DAC (press the little button on the front) each time you switched from PC to Disc Player - which could be inconvenient.
> 
> **EDIT**
> 
> Wait, I just looked at the DI, it has a switch to choose from USB/COAX as well.  So either way you're hitting a switch on something to switch from Disc Player to PC.  Might as well plug the Disc Player into the DAC and keep the path cleaner? and use the input selection button on the DAC to switch from Disc Player to PC.  Maybe I'm still missing something


 

 Or just burn all your CDs to HD using EAC.  Sell the CD player and buy a better DAC.


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Just a heads-up, the issues I've had with the DI's USB... Seemed to have been resolved by installing the latest drivers. I've been using the previous revision drivers and they seemed to work fine but those new ones seem to solve lots of issues people have had with their Audio-gd DACs [blue screens, etc.]
> Well, I'll keep watching for a few days and if things stay fine, then I guess all's good.


 

 Have your run in the U12 - it does need 50-100 hrs or so for the clocks to settle in.  Others here have mentioned this burnin effect.  Your DI is obviously well burnt-in.


----------



## motberg

I have maybe 150 hours on my U12 now...
  
 I am using the driver that came in the box on the little CD titled XMOS-Stereo-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver-3033(v2.23.0)
 This driver installed without issue onto a Dell i5 /4GB laptop with Windows 8 Enterprise and also a dedicated Windows Server 2012 / AO / JPlay single-PC server.
 My DAC's are limited to 24/96... JPlay on the laptop played Ultrastream with direct buffers, no problems. (The laptop was only used to break-in the U12 for a few days)
  
 On the main system dedicated server using JPlay Mini (WIN 2012 Server with AO) in Hibernate mode up to 24/96 (DAC limit)..
 Buffers set at Direct. Ultrastream (US=100), and River engines play perfectly with no signs of stress.
  
 Below some comments of SQ very subjectively compared to a W4S uLink powered with iUSB and/or TeraDak 5V LPS. Using BNC->BNC with attenuator to an (Audio-GD NOS1704) DAC:
  
 With RCA->RCA 1M SPDIF the U12 sound stage has maybe 10% less width and the bass a little less deep - but also less woolly- than the uLink.
  
 I changed the U12->DAC connection to using the AES output with a Neutrik 110->75 Ohm adapter, and using an attenuator on the DAC end of a BNC-BNC digital 1.5M cable
 (My BNC-BNC cable may be better than my RCA-RCA cable.)
 Sound stage width came back to same as the uLink with maybe a little more depth.
 In both connection cases - acoustic guitar and snare drums were more natural sounding and attack is better defined with the U12.
 Due to this extra "micro-dynamics" the front-to-back sound stage layering is more detailed. The rear edge of the sound stage is more defined and the side and forward elements are easier to pick out.
  
 Please note that the uLink is really very good with the LPS and/or iUSB, and the SQ comparison comments were not produced in a side-by-side test. It could be that the iUSB softened the uLink attack a bit, but I previously preferred the uLink using the iUSB (or powered from external TeraDak LPS, 5V injected at the connector) - over directly powered from the USB cable from the computer.
  
 For my system, I will keep the U12 for the naturalness and sound-stage attributes - and also the driver works perfectly to 24/96 with JPlay (and actually solved a minor problem I had with JPlay River engine initial track stutter with the uLink.)


----------



## sbgk

thanks for the update, I also use the supplied driver after failing to get the alternative one to load, can use the spy tool though.
  
 A question I asked further back was do you get exclusive access to the device ie you are unable to play other sounds at the same time and can you adjust the volume from the laptop/pc ?


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> I have maybe 150 hours on my U12 now...
> 
> I am using the driver that came in the box on the little CD titled XMOS-Stereo-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver-3033(v2.23.0)
> This driver installed without issue onto a Dell i5 /4GB laptop with Windows 8 Enterprise and also a dedicated Windows Server 2012 / AO / JPlay single-PC server.
> ...


 

 ++1  Great review.  Glad to see you got the Thesycon drivers to play well with JPlay.  I will try to reinstall JPay this weekend.  I wholeheartedly agree on the naturalness of the U12 - on all three of my very different systems it's very apparent.  They've never sounded better.


----------



## motberg

sbgk said:


> thanks for the update, I also use the supplied driver after failing to get the alternative one to load, can use the spy tool though.
> 
> A question I asked further back was do you get exclusive access to the device ie you are unable to play other sounds at the same time and can you adjust the volume from the laptop/pc ?


 

 For the break-in period on the Win 8 laptop, I used Media Player, but do not recall trying to adjust the volume.. I am traveling now, but will be happy to check when I get back middle of next week...


----------



## Benny-x

rb2013 said:


> Speaking of Murata transformers - where are all the big modders who were going do all these extreme mods on the U12 a few months ago(like swap the Pulse's for Murata's).  All I've heard is crickets...


 
 Well, I'm just starting to get back on my feet after the tidal wave of Chinese wedding. Although I'm sure weddings are never a breeze to go through, anything that my siblings ever complained about back in Canada with their weddings has nothing on the amount of work that went into mine here. Chinese weddings are really an overwhelming thing and I have a new appreciation and understanding for anyone who gets married here.
  
 So yeah, the mods will happen on the schedule that I mentioned earlier; so to be completed in the next 3-4 months. I'll start collecting the parts soon enough and hopefully I'll be able to start fitting the work in some time next month. I've still got to sort out the transformer stuff, but I won't have a good look at that for a little while.


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> Well, I'm just starting to get back on my feet after the tidal wave of Chinese wedding. Although I'm sure weddings are never a breeze to go through, anything that my siblings ever complained about back in Canada with their weddings has nothing on the amount of work that went into mine here. Chinese weddings are really an overwhelming thing and I have a new appreciation and understanding for anyone who gets married here.
> 
> So yeah, the mods will happen on the schedule that I mentioned earlier; so to be completed in the next 3-4 months. I'll start collecting the parts soon enough and hopefully I'll be able to start fitting the work in some time next month. I've still got to sort out the transformer stuff, but I won't have a good look at that for a little while.


 

 Congratulations!


----------



## conquerator2

Yeah, I think the U12 is really good, especially for the asking price. Gives the DI a good run for its money 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I'd say they're more or less on equal footing, the DI having a slightly more analytic and detailed sound and more inputs and outputs [versatility].
 Both are keepers for now.
 I'll post more when there's more to say 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 FYI, I am leaning towards the U12/DI being over-so-slightly better than the Gungnir's USB but the difference is very small... Small enough to not buy either of the converters just for it, if I already haven't owned them


----------



## conquerator2

Hmmm.... For some reason, the U12 started to lock up after a few mins, even mid song...
 The display shows [--------] instead of [44.1] for example and I have to unplug and replug the unit...
 It is running PC - Wyrd - U12 - coax to Gungnir...
 Strange, any ideas?


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> Hmmm.... For some reason, the U12 started to lock up after a few mins, even mid song...
> The display shows [--------] instead of [44.1] for example and I have to unplug and replug the unit...
> It is running PC - Wyrd - U12 - coax to Gungnir...
> Strange, any ideas?


 
  
 Odd indeed. I don't the Wyrd has anything to do with it, since that's just the power. I've had mine on for a few weeks straight without any issues. Try a different computer?
  
 I don't know if the Wyrd will make any difference with the U12 or DI, since it just cleans up the power, right?


----------



## conquerator2

elwappo99 said:


> Odd indeed. I don't the Wyrd has anything to do with it, since that's just the power. I've had mine on for a few weeks straight without any issues. Try a different computer?
> 
> I don't know if the Wyrd will make any difference with the U12 or DI, since it just cleans up the power, right?


 
 Nah, it's not the computer. And yeah, the Wyrd only cleans the power but I like having it there 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Might be the Gungnir. The switching relay works a lot in it and it might be confusing or glitching the U12 somehow, but I doubt that...
 It just locks mid playback. Hopefully it'll go away or I'll try to troubleshoot it further.


----------



## conquerator2

UPDATE: seems to kick in when the screen saver does... Disabled that, seemed to fix the issue. Will update if it happens again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Nope. Issue persists.


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> UPDATE: seems to kick in when the screen saver does... Disabled that, seemed to fix the issue. Will update if it happens again


 
  
 Weird, but glad you got that fixed


----------



## conquerator2

Very much enjoying that combo though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 Starting to like the smoothness to the vocals the U12 has [smoothest of the three], especially beneficial with the HE-560


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Very much enjoying that combo though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 +1 There are some things you can do to optimize the music server performance of a PC (windows 7 64 bit) (I'm sure Mac's have something equivalent):
  
 Turn off the screen saver, power saver (especially HD) functions.  I have mine set to 'always on'.
 Under performance options - advanced - processor scheduling - set 'adjust for best performance of' programs
 Set thread priority for Foobar (my music app) to highest - disable all non-essential programs in task manager.
 Uninstall all programs not related to audio.  (I can do this since my music servers are dedicated machines - no other apps or purposes).
 Be sure to have lot's of fast ram installed.
 Install SOtM noise filters on fans and HDs.
 And probably a dozen other tweeks


----------



## nieveulv

Getting my first usb interface and was wondering some questions. System will be used is macminiw/ audirvana -> usb interface -> densen b200/b330 - >neat mf5
  
 cables is tchernov reference i/c and speaker cables. usb is vertere d-fi and chord silverplus. all standard power cord. xlo signature aes/ebu cable
  
 decide to add a usb interface as many is saying that nad m51 usb implementation is not so good. honestly i cant detect much problem, but if it can make sound better by adding usb interface, why not? 
  
 my current System is dynamic and punchy, detailed with deep but not so wide stage. just to inform im totally satisfied with my system, just wanting to smoothen things a little and more bass detail and extension. and of course increase overall performance if possible 
  
 My choices so far are the gustard u12 and the yellowtec puc2 lite. As i want to connect via aes/ebu (audiophilleo is out)
 Was reading good things to these 2 system, but i cannot try it out before implementing to the system
  
 So some questions
 1) how is the bass extension and punch of the gustard?
 2) is the staging wide and deep? or intimate and focused?
 3) is the sound "too" smooth? does it decreases details and dynamic impact by smoothing things up?
  
 Cheers all!! any advice is much appreciated


----------



## abartels

Hi Guys,
  
 Got my U12 today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 At first Chody's driver wouldn't install on my W8.1 testsystem (laptop @work). Finally disabled driver signing and got it working 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 This evening i will install @home at AudioPC with JPlay (Dual Setup), i'm very, VERY curious 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 To be continued


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> +1 There are some things you can do to optimize the music server performance of a PC (windows 7 64 bit) (I'm sure Mac's have something equivalent):
> 
> Turn off the screen saver, power saver (especially HD) functions.  I have mine set to 'always on'.
> Under performance options - advanced - processor scheduling - set 'adjust for best performance of' programs
> ...


 
 Hi RB2013,
  
 Did you ever try Server 2012R2? It sounds MUCH better than W7. It seems W10 sounds great too  W8(.1) sounds better than W7 but less than Server 2012R2.
 Btw, i plan to use elfidelity cards as shown below


----------



## Benny-x

nieveulv said:


> Getting my first usb interface and was wondering some questions. System will be used is macminiw/ audirvana -> usb interface -> densen b200/b330 - >neat mf5
> 
> cables is tchernov reference i/c and speaker cables. usb is vertere d-fi and chord silverplus. all standard power cord. xlo signature aes/ebu cable
> 
> ...


 
 Because I'm nice, but not too nice as to just provide the quote, go find conquerator2's shoot-out between the Gustard U12, Audio-gd DI-2014, and Schiit Gungnir's built in USB a couple pages back. It'll give you a very good idea what to expect with the U12. Then read from there forward and find his updates in reference to that post   
  
 As for the PUC2 lite, I haven't see any sort of comparison between it and the converters in here, but what I have read about it is all great stuff. Give them both a shot, you can always flip the loser for good money or just keep them both and build a second system. Only thing I've found about the PUC2 is that the thread starter says the U12 is better than his old Adiophilleo and another guy said the PUC2 was better than his Audiophilleo, so that puts them in the same league   Haha.


----------



## Benny-x

abartels said:


> Hi RB2013,
> 
> Did you ever try Server 2012R2? It sounds MUCH better than W7. It seems W10 sounds great too  W8(.1) sounds better than W7 but less than Server 2012R2.
> Btw, i plan to use elfidelity cards as shown below


 
 So it's not a lot of help to you, or to anyone really, but I own the three of these and haven't used them yet   I guess that can only reassure you that they physically do exist, but no feedback on whether or not they work even a pinch. I'm excited to find out though, given none of them cost too much or carry the ridiculous prices their SOtM equivalents do 
  
 And the RAM filters, I actually bought 2 different models that I found. Should be a little fun to see if there's any difference between them, if they even do anything whatsoever.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi RB2013,
> 
> Did you ever try Server 2012R2? It sounds MUCH better than W7. It seems W10 sounds great too  W8(.1) sounds better than W7 but less than Server 2012R2.
> Btw, i plan to use elfidelity cards as shown below


 

 That's good to hear about Server 2012R2 - and W10.  I will most likely build new ground up SSD based music servers after the release of W10.  Those Elfidelity card/filters look very cool.  Where can you get more information and buy them?  Anyone know if any specialty companies are making an 'audio quality' large SSD drive?  Preferably 500GB or larger.
  
 PS With the prices of 1TB SSDs dropping - they are getting temptingly close to my buying point.  My new music servers will be all SSD - likey 3 like this Samsung, in addition to the highest speed 500GB I can find for the main drive.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-2-5-Inch-Internal-MZ-75E1T0B-AM/dp/B00OBRFFAS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423496184&sr=8-1&keywords=1+tb+ssd+drive


----------



## bwmarrin

I think my brain may have just crashed.


----------



## rb2013

bwmarrin said:


> I think my brain may have just crashed.


 

 +1 I need a reboot every once in a while.


----------



## bwmarrin

rb2013 said:


> +1 I need a reboot every once in a while.


 
  
 Some of this reminds me of mid-late 1999 and 2000.  When I saw floppy disks for sale with "Year 2000 Compatible"  listed as a feature.


----------



## rb2013

bwmarrin said:


> Some of this reminds me of mid-late 1999 and 2000.  When I saw floppy disks for sale with "Year 2000 Compatible"  listed as a feature.


 

 LOL!  I still have a few spindles of blank CDs - they're in the box with my blank Maxwell cassette tapes.  Now running 32GB sticks in the car - Nissan has a really nice USB interface. 
  
 Soon the old spinners will be obsolete as well.


----------



## rb2013

Found those ElFidelity's on Ebay - just ordered up some to give them a try.  Can't beat the price.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/251819734789
  
 Thanks for the tip abartels!


----------



## sbgk

am using win 10 and when I open playback devices and right mouse click on the u12/x12 device I get an option to click about software midi synthesiser
 clicking on that brings up a panel headed Microsoft GS software wavetable synthesiser featuring Roland sound canvas digital samples
  
 under enhancements there are options for bass boost, virtual surround, room correction and loudness equalisation, are these new for win 10 ?
  
 So what is happening ? So much for bypassing windows mixer. Has options to give applications exclusive use, but that doesn't seem to work
 as I can still play multiple sounds using ks or wasapi exclusive


----------



## Chodi

sbgk said:


> am using win 10 and when I open playback devices and right mouse click on the u12/x12 device I get an option to click about software midi synthesiser
> clicking on that brings up a panel headed Microsoft GS software wavetable synthesiser featuring Roland sound canvas digital samples
> 
> under enhancements there are options for bass boost, virtual surround, room correction and loudness equalisation, are these new for win 10 ?
> ...


 
 I'm also using windows 10. I am not using the U12 but I am also using a usb digital out connection to my dac. I think if you do not select that digital connection as your default it may solve your problem. Select anything else as default. In my setup it lists my digital out connect as "Digital Output". I think that may be necessary in windows 10 to get the exclusive mode going and bypass the mixer. It has to recognize the device as digital output.


----------



## motberg

rb2013 said:


> Found those ElFidelity's on Ebay - just ordered up some to give them a try.  Can't beat the price.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251819734789
> 
> Thanks for the tip abartels!


 

 though somewhat off topic, but following some recent posts, I am using for secondary internal storage a 500GB mSATA card with a Startech SAT32MSATM port-mounted adapter.
  
 My first comparisons have been that files played from the mSATA/adapter card sounds the same as from my primary storage which is a standard 256 GB SSD drive with PPA suspension block and PPA red slim SATA cable.. both are powered from a TeraDak ATX210.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> That's good to hear about Server 2012R2 - and W10.  I will most likely build new ground up SSD based music servers after the release of W10.  Those Elfidelity card/filters look very cool.  Where can you get more information and buy them?  Anyone know if any specialty companies are making an 'audio quality' large SSD drive?  Preferably 500GB or larger.
> 
> PS With the prices of 1TB SSDs dropping - they are getting temptingly close to my buying point.  My new music servers will be all SSD - likey 3 like this Samsung, in addition to the highest speed 500GB I can find for the main drive.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-2-5-Inch-Internal-MZ-75E1T0B-AM/dp/B00OBRFFAS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423496184&sr=8-1&keywords=1+tb+ssd+drive


 
 You can find information about elfidelity cards at apexi.taobao.com


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Found those ElFidelity's on Ebay - just ordered up some to give them a try.  Can't beat the price.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251819734789
> 
> Thanks for the tip abartels!


 
 You're welcome rb2013 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I asked "my" ebay supplier if he could sell them, since not all sellers can sell the whole package 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Vintage_Audio_Lab hasn't the USB card, and not sure if he has the latest models.


----------



## abartels

Yesterday i got my U12, changed the fuse to an audio-grade one and connected thru a regular USB cable with my AudioPC / DAC.
  
  
*First impressions:*
 Soundstage has opened up, deeper, wider, more definition, tonal it's more "mature" (has more body), it's just more lively.
  
  
  
 I compared with an I2S converter like the Speed Dragon UAU06A (from manufacturer Syba Tech). This tiny thing looks like c..p but,
 when u use it with an external, beefy, battery (cut power and ground wires), this little thing sounds fantastic, at least, until now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 I'm surely VERY VERY happy with my U12!!! It's burning-in as we speak 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Next thing to do:
  
 Replace stock LM317 with Belleson SPJ17 +5V which is pin-compatible (available at Parts Connexion)
 Maybe i'll exchange the buffer caps for better ones like Sanyo Oscons or Panasonic FC's,
 and of course fiddle a little bit around with a few pieces of 3M AB5100S 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Can't wait till it's complete burned-in (normaly about 150 hours),,,,


----------



## gattari

Albartels have you a link for the fuse? What value for it? My gustard u12 is on the way.

Inviato dal mio LG-D855 utilizzando Tapatalk


----------



## abartels

gattari said:


> Albartels have you a link for the fuse? What value for it? My gustard u12 is on the way.
> 
> Inviato dal mio LG-D855 utilizzando Tapatalk


 
 Hi gattari,
  
 I bought an inexpensive one, but it's good enough for this purpose, it's 0,5A 5x20 and only $12,99 shipment is FREE
  
 http://www.ebay.nl/itm/1pc-Gold-Rhodium-Plate-Create-Audio-DELUXE-Nano-Fuse-5-20mm-0-5A-1A-2A-3A-5A-/330999929661?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item7dc81b8507
  
 OR:
  
 You also can buy Padis fuse (it's same like expensive Furutech fuses) but it's more expensive, 0,5A 5x20 €22,00 and €5,00 shipment
 http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Padis-High-End-Tuning-Sicherung-5-x-20mm-alle-Werte-/131220220750?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_Sonstige&hash=item1e8d55ab4e
  
 Hope this helps!
  
 Alex


----------



## abartels

Guys,
  
 Did anybody try connect a USB cable without usb-power?
 I'm planning to create a usb cable with four wires in star-quad for signal only (2x+ 2x-) with earthshield connected to U12-side only.
 Anybody tried this?


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> though somewhat off topic, but following some recent posts, I am using for secondary internal storage a 500GB mSATA card with a Startech SAT32MSATM port-mounted adapter.
> 
> My first comparisons have been that files played from the mSATA/adapter card sounds the same as from my primary storage which is a standard 256 GB SSD drive with PPA suspension block and PPA red slim SATA cable.. both are powered from a TeraDak ATX210.


 

 Thanks for that info - I may start a new SSD and music sound quality thread to compile these reports.  It will be very helpful to me, and hopefully others, come music server building time.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Yesterday i got my U12, changed the fuse to an audio-grade one and connected thru a regular USB cable with my AudioPC / DAC.
> 
> 
> *First impressions:*
> ...


 

 +1 Please, if possible can yu provide pictures of these mods -they look very interesting (especially the LM317 mod).  Thanks!


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for that info - I may start a new SSD and music sound quality thread to compile these reports.  It will be very helpful to me, and hopefully others, come music server building time.


 
 +1 Would be a good one


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> +1 Please, if possible can yu provide pictures of these mods -they look very interesting (especially the LM317 mod).  Thanks!


 
 Of course i will, but first things first, burn-in, listening, applying 3M AB5100S, listening,,,,,


----------



## rb2013

Sorry started  thread in 'Computer Audio' - should have been in 'Dedicated Source Components'
  
 Proper thread http://www.head-fi.org/t/754547/the-soekris-r-2r-dac-technical-details


----------



## sbgk

abartels said:


> Guys,
> 
> Did anybody try connect a USB cable without usb-power?
> I'm planning to create a usb cable with four wires in star-quad for signal only (2x+ 2x-) with earthshield connected to U12-side only.
> Anybody tried this?


 
 yes, I've tried with a cable without 5v and it doesn't work. Someone took the transformer and ac parts out and said it no longer needed the 5v from usb cable. think it operates the relay, so if the relay isn't there then maybe that's why. Someone also said xmos chip requires 5v to switch on, not sure about that or whether the usb 5v would be the supply for this.


----------



## sbgk

chodi said:


> I'm also using windows 10. I am not using the U12 but I am also using a usb digital out connection to my dac. I think if you do not select that digital connection as your default it may solve your problem. Select anything else as default. In my setup it lists my digital out connect as "Digital Output". I think that may be necessary in windows 10 to get the exclusive mode going and bypass the mixer. It has to recognize the device as digital output.


 
 removing the default device setting removes the bit about software synthesiser. It is recognised as a loudspeaker and not a digital device and even though exclusive setting is set I can still adjust the volume and play other sounds when playing via ks.
  
 thanks for the help, anyway.


----------



## Chodi

sbgk said:


> removing the default device setting removes the bit about software synthesiser. It is recognised as a loudspeaker and not a digital device and even though exclusive setting is set I can still adjust the volume and play other sounds when playing via ks.
> 
> thanks for the help, anyway.


 
 Until it is listed as a "Digital Device" in the playback device panel it will not be in the exclusive mode as it should. This is a software problem. You should try removing the device driver through the control panel, uninstall it in properties. Then uninstall your driver software using normal uninstall procedure. If you have an uninstall program like Revo it will get everything. You should, of course, disconnect the usb connection after uninstalling the driver. Then after re-boot go back and re-install the driver. If you are using version 9926 of windows 10 there is no reason this should not work. You do have to be aware that windows 10 is very beta so your installation may be the issue. You can check the events in the control panel to see if there are any strange happenings.


----------



## prot

sbgk said:


> am using win 10 and when I open playback devices and right mouse click on the u12/x12 device I get an option to click about software midi synthesiser
> clicking on that brings up a panel headed Microsoft GS software wavetable synthesiser featuring Roland sound canvas digital samples
> 
> under enhancements there are options for bass boost, virtual surround, room correction and loudness equalisation, are these new for win 10 ?
> ...



Those are some funny Qs from someone who alegedly develops a music player. Anyway. 
That Enhancements tab is there since winXp (maybe even earlier) and it's the first thing one should disable. Exclusive mode should also work fine if enabled and the player has proper support. Works perfectly on my W7 machine with foobar/wasapi. And the Dac is the only and default audio device on my PC (PC soundcard disabled). 
Maybe the player you use doesnt properly grab the exclusive mode or there are beta issues in Win10. 
For anyone with similar problems read the whole Win chapter on http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Windows/WindowsAudio.htm


----------



## abartels

abartels said:


> Guys,
> 
> Did anybody try connect a USB cable without usb-power?
> I'm planning to create a usb cable with four wires in star-quad for signal only (2x+ 2x-) with earthshield connected to U12-side only.
> Anybody tried this?


 
 "yes, I've tried with a cable without 5v and it doesn't work. Someone took the transformer and ac parts out and said it no longer needed the 5v from usb cable. think it operates the relay, so if the relay isn't there then maybe that's why. Someone also said xmos chip requires 5v to switch on, not sure about that or whether the usb 5v would be the supply for this."
  
  
 Ok, thank you for confirming! I was wondering because when connecting U12 to USB source, it immediately switches on, even if its connected to 5V USB power adapter.
 Thats a pitty because we can't make a decent cable without power, so polluted 5V from pc will still influence USB signal in cable (interference).
  
 Now i really have to buy the Elfidelity USB card for proper clean usb 5V signal


----------



## sbgk

chodi said:


> Until it is listed as a "Digital Device" in the playback device panel it will not be in the exclusive mode as it should. This is a software problem. You should try removing the device driver through the control panel, uninstall it in properties. Then uninstall your driver software using normal uninstall procedure. If you have an uninstall program like Revo it will get everything. You should, of course, disconnect the usb connection after uninstalling the driver. Then after re-boot go back and re-install the driver. If you are using version 9926 of windows 10 there is no reason this should not work. You do have to be aware that windows 10 is very beta so your installation may be the issue. You can check the events in the control panel to see if there are any strange happenings.


 
 tried that and same result, am going to check if it installs correctly on my win8 laptop. win 10 is 9926. Is there anyway to disable the software midi synthesiser ?
  
 the cuinas installs correctly.
  
 thanks again.


----------



## rb2013

I have the New PC Music Server Build thread up.
 No moving parts - All SSD - No Fans.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/754654/new-pc-music-server-build-project-all-ssd-no-fans


----------



## Barbapappa

nvm..


----------



## rb2013

barbapappa said:


> Sorry but why do you keep posting links to other threads which have no relevance for and / or relation to this threads subject?


 

 Well we had a few side track comments here about PC filtering and DACs - so to keep this thread pure - I'm just directing those conversations to those appropriate threads.  It's great information like the ElFidelity stuff - just not for this thread (aside from the USB card info).
  
 Have you read the thread?
  
 Why does it bother you?


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> "yes, I've tried with a cable without 5v and it doesn't work. Someone took the transformer and ac parts out and said it no longer needed the 5v from usb cable. think it operates the relay, so if the relay isn't there then maybe that's why. Someone also said xmos chip requires 5v to switch on, not sure about that or whether the usb 5v would be the supply for this."
> 
> 
> Ok, thank you for confirming! I was wondering because when connecting U12 to USB source, it immediately switches on, even if its connected to 5V USB power adapter.
> ...


 

 +1 a report on that on Elfidelity USB card and the U12 in terms of compatiblity and SQ would be great


----------



## conquerator2

Right now running USB into the U12->COAX and optical into the DI->BNC. Getting the best of both worlds, both slightly eclipsing Gungnir's respective inputs


----------



## lmitche

Hi, I have a Gustard U12, and this past weekend tried bypassing the relay with a wire soldered between the legs.  It worked in that the Gustard powered up without 5 volt power with the bypass installed.  Unfortunately, it wouldn't play without 5 volt power.
  
 My solution was to install an Aqvox USB connector which takes 5 volt power from an external source as substitute for the dirty power from the host computer.  One leg of a Keces power supply supplies the 5v power.
  
 It sounds great!  
  
 FYI, Aqvox will sell the cable without the linear power supply, if like me, you have one already.


----------



## Barbapappa

rb2013 said:


> Well we had a few side track comments here about PC filtering and DACs - so to keep this thread pure - I'm just directing those conversations to those appropriate threads.  It's great information like the ElFidelity stuff - just not for this thread (aside from the USB card info).
> 
> Have you read the thread?
> 
> Why does it bother you?


 
 Send you a pm.


----------



## bussola

Hello, I received my gustard u12 this morning and i have been really enjoying the sound it creates with my hugo via coaxial.
 Would like to ask you some questions,hope you can answer me and that they are of general interest:
 Does the coaxial output support a 384 kHz stream?I am able to make the led of the gustard to show this rate , but the hugo does not show any light or sound,almost like the data cannot pass in the cable i'm using(20 $ cable)
  
 Does the toslink output support a 192 kHz data signal?Cause the hugo can get that sample rate as an input and also by other devices, but I am only able to stream a 96kHz signal(problably because I am using a really cheap cable,as I read on another forum)
  
 Thank you very much


----------



## rb2013

lmitche said:


> Hi, I have a Gustard U12, and this past weekend tried bypassing the relay with a wire soldered between the legs.  It worked in that the Gustard powered up without 5 volt power with the bypass installed.  Unfortunately, it wouldn't play without 5 volt power.
> 
> My solution was to install an Aqvox USB connector which takes 5 volt power from an external source as substitute for the dirty power from the host computer.  One leg of a Keces power supply supplies the 5v power.
> 
> ...


 

 +1 I just sold my Aqvox's I used with my Musiland USB 3.0's  Should have kept them.  I will order the cable only tomorrow - thanks for the tip!


----------



## bwmarrin

rb2013 said:


> +1 I just sold my Aqvox's I used with my Musiland USB 3.0's  Should have kept them.  I will order the cable only tomorrow - thanks for the tip!


 
  
 I wonder how the Aqvox compares to the Schiit Wyrd?    I was playing with my Wyrd more today and I can hear a difference with my Total Bithead amp/dac which is USB powered.  It actually clears a slight hum and some static at high volumes up entirely.  I'm sure the difference on something not entirely USB powered would be less noticeable but - it does seem to do it's job.


----------



## rb2013

bwmarrin said:


> I wonder how the Aqvox compares to the Schiit Wyrd?    I was playing with my Wyrd more today and I can hear a difference with my Total Bithead amp/dac which is USB powered.  It actually clears a slight hum and some static at high volumes up entirely.  I'm sure the difference on something not entirely USB powered would be less noticeable but - it does seem to do it's job.


 

 The Aqvox is a neat little unit.  Linear PS that replaces the power feed from the PC using a special adapter.  They're not cheap though.
  
 http://www.aqvox.de/usb-power_en.html


----------



## hgpsemaj

I have contacted Gustard via their selling point at Taobao today. Gustard claim the U12's USB voltage input is only for control power on/off, and there should be no effect on musical replay.
  
 Due to separate power supplies, they also claim 'U12 + X12' outperform X12 with built in XMOS board.


----------



## motberg

"Gustard claim the U12's USB voltage input is only for control power on/off, and there should be no effect on musical replay".
  
 That is great news... I just hooked-up an iUSB Power to my U12 USB in, but have not checked yet if any difference.
  
 This TeraDak PS has a 9V* and 5V output, and includes a USB injector cable that is not shown on the website (I bought 2 recently)
 (*the main output voltage needs be set by TeraDak)
 http://www.teradak.com/products/46.html
  
 I was using one of these in front of a W4S uLink and I think it was a good improvement over the USB alone.


----------



## motberg

hgpsemaj said:


> I have contacted Gustard via their selling point at Taobao today. Gustard claim the U12's USB voltage input is only for control power on/off, and there should be no effect on musical replay.
> 
> Due to separate power supplies, they also claim 'U12 + X12' outperform X12 with built in XMOS board.


 

 Welcome hgpsemaj !
 Did you by chance get any clue about a new Gustard flagship DAC ?


----------



## hgpsemaj

motberg said:


> Welcome hgpsemaj !
> Did you by chance get any clue about a new Gustard flagship DAC ?


 
 Hello Motberg,
  
 I'm not familiar with Gustard products. All I know they got X8, X9 and X12 Dac.
  
 Regards,


----------



## hgpsemaj

Hello Motberg,
  
 I just contacted Gustard, they said X12 is their latest DAC.
  
 Regards,


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Well we had a few side track comments here about PC filtering and DACs - so to keep this thread pure - I'm just directing those conversations to those appropriate threads.  It's great information like the ElFidelity stuff - just not for this thread (aside from the USB card info).
> 
> Have you read the thread?
> 
> Why does it bother you?


 
 +1 It's just to keep on topic, nothing wrong with it


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> +1 a report on that on Elfidelity USB card and the U12 in terms of compatiblity and SQ would be great


 
 I still have to order them, will do so next month, did buy tooooo much already this month


----------



## abartels

lmitche said:


> Hi, I have a Gustard U12, and this past weekend tried bypassing the relay with a wire soldered between the legs.  It worked in that the Gustard powered up without 5 volt power with the bypass installed.  Unfortunately, it wouldn't play without 5 volt power.
> 
> My solution was to install an Aqvox USB connector which takes 5 volt power from an external source as substitute for the dirty power from the host computer.  One leg of a Keces power supply supplies the 5v power.
> 
> ...


 
 This is very strange, it looks like the U12 does indeed need the 5V USB supply, and to be honest, that worries me a little bit,,,


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> +1 I just sold my Aqvox's I used with my Musiland USB 3.0's  Should have kept them.  I will order the cable only tomorrow - thanks for the tip!


 
 Just order the E...... USB card we were talking about, you can power it external, and, i suppose it's cheaper than the cable


----------



## motberg

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello Motberg,
> 
> I just contacted Gustard, they said X12 is their latest DAC.
> 
> Regards,


 

 Hi and thanks for the check... much appreciated. I will be in the market for another DAC soon, and looking for something that will match up with the U12...
 I just noticed a thread starting at http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs which has some good preliminary Gustard info in case anyone is interested in their other products.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> This is very strange, it looks like the U12 does indeed need the 5V USB supply, and to be honest, that worries me a little bit,,,


 

 The U12 has a protective circuit that disables the receiver if it detects a loss of connection (someone trying to hot USB cable swap?! or accidental disconnect).  TO reset the relay you need to unplug the U12 then replug.
  
 So likely it uses the USB power to 'detect' connection.  Versus a software/PC setting issue.
  


> Smart switch, USB has a current interface to boot. Interface with the computer switch and switch machine (computer to be set off USB power failure), or unplug the USB cable directly to the shutdown


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> *The U12 has a protective circuit that disables the receiver if it detects a loss of connection (someone trying to hot USB cable swap?! or accidental disconnect).  TO reset the relay you need to unplug the U12 then replug.*
> 
> So likely it uses the USB power to 'detect' connection.  Versus a software/PC setting issue.


 
 I think that's the problem I am experiencing... Except my USB cable is a regular one


----------



## bwmarrin

rb2013 said:


> The Aqvox is a neat little unit.  Linear PS that replaces the power feed from the PC using a special adapter.  They're not cheap though.
> 
> http://www.aqvox.de/usb-power_en.html


 
  
 Yeah I read about that.  The Wyrd provides a Linear power as well.  So that makes me wonder what the pro/con's between the brands would be.  The Wyrd also does some reclocking so there's definitely some other differences to wonder about.


----------



## rb2013

bwmarrin said:


> Yeah I read about that.  The Wyrd provides a Linear power as well.  So that makes me wonder what the pro/con's between the brands would be.  The Wyrd also does some reclocking so there's definitely some other differences to wonder about.


 

 I believe the Wyrd is supposed to work as a galvanic isolator as well - not sure which transformers they use.  To help with hum and GL issue.


----------



## bussola

Sorry,but I need to repost this to get an answer, you guys seems ignoring..
  
  Hello, I received my gustard u12 this morning and i have been really enjoying the sound it creates with my hugo via coaxial.
 Would like to ask you some questions,hope you can answer me and that they are of general interest:
 Does the coaxial output support a 384 kHz stream?I am able to make the led of the gustard to show this rate , but the hugo does not show any light or sound,almost like the data cannot pass in the cable i'm using(20 $ cable)
  
 Does the toslink output support a 192 kHz data signal?Cause the hugo can get that sample rate as an input and also by other devices, but I am only able to stream a 96kHz signal(problably because I am using a really cheap cable,as I read on another forum)
  
 Thank you very much


----------



## MINORISUKE

bussola said:


> Sorry,but I need to repost this to get an answer, you guys seems ignoring..
> 
> .....
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, my DAC accepts 192kHz/24bit signal via TOS-link.  I checked it for you just now.  The optical cable I used is a cheap one from Sony.
 In terms of 384kHz coaxial, it did not work with my DAC (up to 384kHz via I2S capable), nor via AES/EBU.


----------



## bussola

minorisuke said:


> Yes, my DAC accepts 192kHz/24bit signal via TOS-link.  I checked it for you just now.  The optical cable I used is a cheap one from Sony.
> In terms of 384kHz coaxial, it did not work with my DAC (up to 384kHz via I2S capable), nor via AES/EBU.


 
  
 Thank you for the reply.
 Probably my toslink cable has some limitations, cause the hugo dac can take a 192kHz via Toslink.
 In regard of the coax stream,I'd like to know if the gustard itself support 384kHz via coax,cause the hugo can accept a coax input at this rate.I cannot find this information anywhere on the internet


----------



## abartels

bussola said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> Probably my toslink cable has some limitations, cause the hugo dac can take a 192kHz via Toslink.
> In regard of the coax stream,I'd like to know if the gustard itself support 384kHz via coax,cause the hugo can accept a coax input at this rate.I cannot find this information anywhere on the internet


 
 Toslink AND Coax are both SPdif (Sony Philips Digital InterFace).
  
 The SPdif spec is ONLY upto 24/192. So, your dac will NEVER accept digital signals over coax or toslink that have a higher samplerate then 192Khz.
  
 AND
  
 Most Toslink receivers and transmitters accept samplerates upto 96 Khz. Maybe just look in the specs of your dac if it is supposed to work on 24/192 on toslink.


----------



## MINORISUKE

abartels said:


> Toslink AND Coax are both SPdif (Sony Philips Digital InterFace).
> 
> The SPdif spec is ONLY upto 24/192. So, your dac will NEVER accept digital signals over coax or toslink that have a higher samplerate then 192Khz.
> 
> ...


 

 Chord Hugo TT is said to accept 384kHz/32-bit via BNC input.  I am not sure whether it is still called S/PDIF.


----------



## MINORISUKE

Latest XMOS USB audio driver: 2.23.0?
 Does anybody have an idea if there exists a later version for U12?  WaveIO has a dedicated driver 2.24.0.


----------



## bussola

abartels said:


> Toslink AND Coax are both SPdif (Sony Philips Digital InterFace).
> 
> The SPdif spec is ONLY upto 24/192. So, your dac will NEVER accept digital signals over coax or toslink that have a higher samplerate then 192Khz.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes,but here the specs for the chord hugo mobile
 Optical TOSLink 24-bit/192kHz-capable
 RCA coaxial input 24-bit/384kHz-capable
 Are they referring to a non Spdif coax connection?who knows


----------



## bussola

minorisuke said:


> Chord Hugo TT is said to accept 384kHz/32-bit via BNC input.  I am not sure whether it is still called S/PDIF.


 

 BNC should be a different type of connector,rather than rca coax,the cable is the same


----------



## gattari

abartels said:


> Yesterday i got my U12, changed the fuse to an audio-grade one and connected thru a regular USB cable with my AudioPC / DAC.
> 
> 
> *First impressions:*
> ...



Where is the fuse in gustard u12? I don't see in the internal photos.....

Inviato dal mio LG-D855 utilizzando Tapatalk


----------



## abartels

gattari said:


> Where is the fuse in gustard u12? I don't see in the internal photos.....
> 
> Inviato dal mio LG-D855 utilizzando Tapatalk


 
 Flip it upwords on the left side, fuse is inside


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> Chord Hugo TT is said to accept 384kHz/32-bit via BNC input.  I am not sure whether it is still called S/PDIF.


 
 I saw that too and thought it strange.  My understanding was the 192k limit on spdif as well.  My understanding is BNC/AES only allows a longer length.  The issue of concurent clock stream is the same.
  
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=S/PDIF
  


> Main differences between AES3 and S/PDIF[4]
> ​AES3 balanced​AES3 unbalanced​S/PDIF​Cabling​110-ohm STP75-ohm coaxial75-ohm coaxial or fibreConnector​3-pin XLRBNCRCA or TOSLINKOutput level​2–7 V peak to peak1.0–1.2 V peak to peak0.5–0.6 V peak to peakMin. input level​0.2 V0.32 V0.2 VMax. distance​100 m1,000 m10 mModulation​Biphase mark codeBiphase mark codeBiphase mark codeSubcode information​ASCII id. textASCII id. textSCMS copy protection info.Max. resolution​24 bits24 bits20 bits (24 bits optional)


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Flip it upwords on the left side, fuse is inside


 

 Did you do the Pannie FC filter cap upgrade too? If so how do you like it?


----------



## gattari

Thx Albartels, I just ordered a Padis, but I'm a bit doubtful that it can make a difference  Anyway I will try 

Inviato dal mio LG-D855 utilizzando Tapatalk


----------



## MINORISUKE

gattari said:


> Thx Albartels, I just ordered a Padis, but I'm a bit doubtful that it can make a difference  Anyway I will try
> 
> Inviato dal mio LG-D855 utilizzando Tapatalk


 

 I use a PADIS fuse 0.5A, which cost about 20% of U12.....  The sound has become a little bit smoother.


----------



## conquerator2

Well, my U12 either does not go along well with the Gungnir or is defective. It just randomly locks after a random period of time. Cause unknown for now.


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Well, my U12 either does not go along well with the Gungnir or is defective. It just randomly locks after a random period of time. Cause unknown for now.


 

 On both my systems using the U12 with completely different DAC's, running SoX upsampler to 192K on one and 96K on the other - not a single unlock, crash or hiccup. It's been a few months of 24/7 flawless operation.
  
 I would check your cable


----------



## hgpsemaj

I pair my U12 with 'Cullen Stage IV PS DLIII' or 'Geek Pulse' DAC for several weeks, it works so smooth and never give me any trouble. Please note I use FooBar and SOX Upsampler.


----------



## sbgk

installed driver on a win 8.1 machine and it installed as a speaker in playback devices. Has anyone managed to get it to install as a digital device ? 
  
 Managed to install Chodi's driver and it installed as aa speaker as well.
  
 maybe doesn't matter if using asio, but affects wasapi and ks.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Did you do the Pannie FC filter cap upgrade too? If so how do you like it?


 
 Hi RB2013,
  
 That picture is not mine, i suppose it's yours 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I am still waiting for my Pana fc's to arrive, ordered them on ebay.
  
 I will write a review when i replaced the bc's.
  
 In the meantime i placed some 3M AB5100S on the chips, also on the chips of my dac.
 Sounds indeed better, more black, bigger and wider soundstage 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Next week i will order a Belleson regulator, including some Sanyo OS-Con's to replace the 330uF caps


----------



## abartels

sbgk said:


> installed driver on a win 8.1 machine and it installed as a speaker in playback devices. Has anyone managed to get it to install as a digital device ?
> 
> Managed to install Chodi's driver and it installed as aa speaker as well.
> 
> maybe doesn't matter if using asio, but affects wasapi and ks.


 
 On Server 2012R2 it does indeed also install as speaker in playback devices, but it works like a charm, i use JPlay and use it with KS.
 I suppose it doesn't matter how it presents itself within playback devices, as long as it works and all settings are correct.
  
 I can use the tool to set the buffer, everythings ok.


----------



## sbgk

abartels said:


> On Server 2012R2 it does indeed also install as speaker in playback devices, but it works like a charm, i use JPlay and use it with KS.
> I suppose it doesn't matter how it presents itself within playback devices, as long as it works and all settings are correct.
> 
> I can use the tool to set the buffer, everythings ok.


 
 thanks for the info. if you can play a system sound or other track at the same time it means it's not got exclusive access to the device and must be using the mixer. 
  
 For better sq it should be bypassing the mixer.


----------



## abartels

sbgk said:


> thanks for the info. if you can play a system sound or other track at the same time it means it's not got exclusive access to the device and must be using the mixer.
> 
> For better sq it should be bypassing the mixer.


 
 I only use it with JPlay and  KernelStreaming (that is defintely WITHOUT windows mixer).
 My AudioPC runs on Server 2012R2 in CORE mode, so it is not easy for me to look at the settings now because i would have to revert from CORE to GUI mode.
 I can see in JPlay settings on ControlPC that JPlay uses KS.
  
 If you use KS mode (kernelstreaming) then you bypass mixer, it's straight from kernel.


----------



## sbgk

abartels said:


> I only use it with JPlay and  KernelStreaming (that is defintely WITHOUT windows mixer).
> My AudioPC runs on Server 2012R2 in CORE mode, so it is not easy for me to look at the settings now because i would have to revert from CORE to GUI mode.
> I can see in JPlay settings on ControlPC that JPlay uses KS.
> 
> If you use KS mode (kernelstreaming) then you bypass mixer, it's straight from kernel.


 
 you would think ks=exclusive, but get same thing using wasapi. in ksstudio it has 3 nodes a dac node, a mute node and a volume node, so maybe it's implemented in hardware


----------



## stuartmc

abartels said:


> Hi RB2013,
> 
> That picture is not mine, i suppose it's yours :wink_face:
> I am still waiting for my Pana fc's to arrive, ordered them on ebay.
> ...




I showed my U12 and X12 some AB5100S love and I agree that it is a very good price/performance tweak - http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/735#post_11319496

I mostly noticed an enhancement of soundstage and imaging.


----------



## abartels

stuartmc said:


> I showed my U12 and X12 some AB5100S love and I agree that it is a very good price/performance tweak - http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/735#post_11319496
> 
> I mostly noticed an enhancement of soundstage and imaging.


 
 +1 Thats exactly what i noticed


----------



## MINORISUKE

stuartmc said:


> I showed my U12 and X12 some AB5100S love and I agree that it is a very good price/performance tweak - http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/735#post_11319496
> 
> I mostly noticed an enhancement of soundstage and imaging.


 

 Hi, I posted the following in X12 thread.  I believe you are an owner of both X12 and U12.  I am suspicious about the firmware of USB-DDC board in X12, and U12 as well.  Currently, I can play only PCM with my U12.
  ----------------
 Hi, I am a U12 owner but not X12 yet.
 An X12 owner in Japan wrote in his blog that left and right channels were reversed in DSD with USB input.  Can you check this?
 If you happen to have the U12 or any transport that outputs DoP via S/PDIF, can you also check by connecting two machines via a coaxial cable?
 I heard many manufacturers had had the same issue in their first batch such as Combo384, Astell & Kern AK240, etc., and they fixed this issue via firmware update.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi RB2013,
> 
> That picture is not mine, i suppose it's yours
> 
> ...


 

 Awesome!  Will try some of that 3M on the chips as well - I guess is acts as EMI blocker/dampening.
  
 http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Electronics_NA/Electronics/Products/Product_Catalog/~/3M-EMI-Absorber-AB5100S?N=4294286187+5153906&Nr=AND%28hrcy_id%3AZX4PS8GFSFgs_FQBRW7MRMJ_N2RL3FHWVK_GPD0K8BC31gv%29&rt=d
  
 Where did you buy it?
  
 This is this the ERS paper I used on the inside of the case  http://www.partsconnexion.com/accessories_ers.html
  
 PS:  I found it http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/3M-Electronic-Specialty/AB5100S-210MM/?qs=7zdqrEdV2aJuFYw8kiMOiQ%3D%3D
  
 PSS: Found it way cheaper $40 a sheet- Mouser was $67.89.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-AB-5100S-EMI-Absorber-Sheet-/161437349302


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> Awesome!  Will try some of that 3M on the chips as well - I guess is acts as EMI blocker/dampening.
> 
> http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Electronics_NA/Electronics/Products/Product_Catalog/~/3M-EMI-Absorber-AB5100S?N=4294286187+5153906&Nr=AND%28hrcy_id%3AZX4PS8GFSFgs_FQBRW7MRMJ_N2RL3FHWVK_GPD0K8BC31gv%29&rt=d
> 
> Where did you buy it?




If you go to my referenced modifications post, I give a link to an eBay seller who has the best price I have found. It was $46 delivered for a 8x11 sheet.


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> If you go to my referenced modifications post, I give a link to an eBay seller who has the best price I have found. It was $46 delivered for a 8x11 sheet.


 

 Thanks - I just ordered a sheet


----------



## MINORISUKE

minorisuke said:


> Hi, I posted the following in X12 thread.  I believe you are an owner of both X12 and U12.  I am suspicious about the firmware of USB-DDC board in X12, and U12 as well.  Currently, I can play only PCM with my U12.
> ----------------
> Hi, I am a U12 owner but not X12 yet.
> An X12 owner in Japan wrote in his blog that left and right channels were reversed in DSD with USB input.  Can you check this?
> ...


 
 X12 channel swap (DSD playback from USB input)
 Meanwhile, I got information that the manufacturer was aware of this issue but had no plan to fix it (as of today).


----------



## motberg

minorisuke said:


> X12 channel swap (DSD playback from USB input)
> Meanwhile, I got information that the manufacturer was aware of this issue but had no plan to fix it (as of today).


 

 China New Year.... things get pretty relaxed over here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Is anyone using 2 outputs on their U12.. both connected but switching from one DAC to another for playback ?
 I am using a NOS DAC which is working wonderfully.. but considering to try something with DSD capability in the near future..


----------



## mz2014

Hi
 Did the Gustard U12 can be connected with Raspbbery Pi2 ?


----------



## ted_b

abartels said:


> Toslink AND Coax are both SPdif (Sony Philips Digital InterFace).
> 
> The SPdif spec is ONLY upto 24/192. So, your dac will NEVER accept digital signals over coax or toslink that have a higher samplerate then 192Khz.
> 
> ...


 

 My Hugo accepts and plays DXD and 384 via SPDIF (normal coax 75 ohm spdif cable of your choice) every day.  And 192k via toslink (here some cables throw up).  The issue is that the U12 does not output 384k except via I2S (my cursory understanding)


----------



## abartels

ted_b said:


> My Hugo accepts and plays DXD and 384 via SPDIF (normal coax 75 ohm spdif cable of your choice) every day.  And 192k via toslink (here some cables throw up).  The issue is that the U12 does not output 384k except via I2S (my cursory understanding)


 
 Hmm, that is new to me, didn't know that manufacturers "lack the spdif spec boundary".
 Surely it is something to think of when bying a digital interface which must connect thru spdif interface only.
  
 I bought the U12 for it's SQ but also for it's HDMI I2S connectivity which is supposed to be the best option available nowadays.


----------



## abartels

motberg said:


> China New Year.... things get pretty relaxed over here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Happy NEW YEAR Tom


----------



## rb2013

ted_b said:


> My Hugo accepts and plays DXD and 384 via SPDIF (normal coax 75 ohm spdif cable of your choice) every day.  And 192k via toslink (here some cables throw up).  The issue is that the U12 does not output 384k except via I2S (my cursory understanding)


 

 I can confirm my U12 outputs at 352K and 384K via spdif coax.  I have some naive 352K DLs from 2L and I can upsample with SoX 4x -so with a 96K x4 = 384K.
  
 Just to confirm I tried to output these rates to one of my DAC's which can only accept 192k or less - it unlocked at those rates.  Relocked when I returned to 192K.
  
 There must be an issue with the 'non-standard' spdif 384k implementation on the Hugo - since there is no 'standard'.  Or an incompatibility with the receiver chipset.
  
 I would try to turn off and unplug the Hugo with the U12 outputting the 384k signal, wait 60 seconds and replug and turn on.  Sometimes these receiver chips will lock on to a frequency and not let go.  Although on my Musiland, APL and Modded Lite DAC's I've not had an issue with the U12.


----------



## Wynnytsky

motberg said:


> China New Year.... things get pretty relaxed over here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I've used multiple Gustard outputs just to compare bluejean's AES cable vs their coax cable.  Both cables ran into the same DAC and I could A/B them with a rocker switch on my DAC w/o interrupting playback.
  
 RB - your thread has got so many pages that the same questions are going to be repeated.  It would be nice if head-fi offered a search-inside-thread option.
  
 This weekend I heard the IFI iUSBPower device on my Gustard and it did a fine job of filtering, even with my $7 USB cables.  For me it removed the very last artifacts of a digital signature.  It reminded me of the sound I've heard from some high end CD players.  I suspect however that the cheaper iPurifier will accomplish the same results because I think the Gustard only uses USB power as like a 12v on/off trigger.  I have both units coming in the mail so I'll be able to report my findings in a couple weeks.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> RB - your thread has got so many pages that the same questions are going to be repeated.  It would be nice if head-fi offered a search-inside-thread option.


 
 That would be nice - but above my pay grade - which is $0 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just installed Jplay - working beautifully with the Thesycon drivers.  Not a single hiccup so far.  Running the WaveIO ASIO using 'beach' and big buffers.


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> That would be nice - but above my pay grade - which is $0 :wink_face:
> 
> Just installed Jplay - working beautifully with the Thesycon drivers.  Not a single hiccup so far.  Running the WaveIO ASIO using 'beach' and big buffers.




The android mobile version does have a "search this thread" function. It is the icon at the top right of my screen.


----------



## Sajk

mz2014 said:


> Hi
> Did the Gustard U12 can be connected with Raspbbery Pi2 ?


 
 I' ve connected Raspbbery Pi2 to the Gustard U12 - under RuneAudio works great without any problem.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> That would be nice - but above my pay grade - which is $0
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I use JPlay as KS with Xtreme setting and buffers as direct link. Thesycon driver buffer 128
 Works flawless


----------



## mz2014

Sajk-Thanks very much


----------



## sbgk

think the ability to play multiple tracks at the same time is a function of xcore architecture, so set vol to max and just play one tune/sound at a time for best quality, I guess.
  
 https://www.xmos.com/download/public/xCORE-Architecture%281.2%29.pdf
  
 ---- Verifying intra-filter topology of filter \\?\tusbaudio_enum#vid_20b1&pid_000a&ks#6&1e31c658&8&1#{6994ad04-93ef-11d0-a3cc-00a0c9223196}\pcm_out_02_00 (xCORE USB Audio 2.0 Output) ----
  ~~ Examining Nodes ~~
  Verifying that each node has at least 2 connections
  Verifying Node [0] KSNODETYPE_DAC (DAC) ...
      1 incoming connections (1 from Pins, 0 from other Nodes)
      1 outgoing connections (0 to Pins, 1 to other Nodes)
  Verifying Node [1] KSNODETYPE_MUTE (Master Mute) ...
      1 incoming connections (0 from Pins, 1 from other Nodes)
      1 outgoing connections (0 to Pins, 1 to other Nodes)
  Verifying Node [2] KSNODETYPE_VOLUME (Speakers) ...
      1 incoming connections (0 from Pins, 1 from other Nodes)
      1 outgoing connections (1 to Pins, 0 to other Nodes)
  ~~ Examining Pins ~~
  Verifying that each pin has at least 1 connection
  Verifying Pin [0] ...
       0 incoming connections (0 from other Pins, 0 from Nodes)
       1 outgoing connections (0 to other Pins, 1 to Nodes)
  Verifying Pin [1] (Speakers) ...
       1 incoming connections (0 from other Pins, 1 from Nodes)
       0 outgoing connections (0 to other Pins, 0 to Nodes)


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> I use JPlay as KS with Xtreme setting and buffers as direct link. Thesycon driver buffer 128
> Works flawless


 

 Yes Xtreme works as well.  I tried KS works as well.  Buffer settings 32 , 96K 128, 192K 512.  I upsample all redbook 16/44 to 192k in foobar with SoX (50% Phase Response, No Aliasing, Passband 95%, Qaulity = High)


----------



## motberg

wynnytsky said:


> I've used multiple Gustard outputs just to compare bluejean's AES cable vs their coax cable.  Both cables ran into the same DAC and I could A/B them with a rocker switch on my DAC w/o interrupting playback.
> 
> RB - your thread has got so many pages that the same questions are going to be repeated.  It would be nice if head-fi offered a search-inside-thread option.
> 
> This weekend I heard the IFI iUSBPower device on my Gustard and it did a fine job of filtering, even with my $7 USB cables.  For me it removed the very last artifacts of a digital signature.  It reminded me of the sound I've heard from some high end CD players.  I suspect however that the cheaper iPurifier will accomplish the same results because I think the Gustard only uses USB power as like a 12v on/off trigger.  I have both units coming in the mail so I'll be able to report my findings in a couple weeks.


 

 Hi Wynnytsky,
  
 Thanks for the multiple outputs confirmation (I think you maybe posted that info before.. much appreciated). I am thinking about using the  HDMI I2S and AES together. I now am using the AES to an Audio GD NOS1704 DAC and the results are outstanding...
  
 I have also just added an IFI iUSBPower with their Gemini cable (from the computer) and using an adapter at the U12 end (the iUSB Power is upside-down). It seemed to be an improvement but I have made a few changes lately (I may remove it later and check if the iUSB is really necessary for SQ).
 I also recently added a Yulong P18 powering the U12, DAC and preamp.. I think that was helpful also as the power here is not so great.
 http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/yulong-p18-without-dynamic-compression-power-purifier-filter.html
 Now, if the recording is good, I cannot sense any hash in the vocal area if the vocals are recorded relatively dry. I was able to adjust my JPlay and AO settings for maximum detail without any noticeable high frequency hash being amplified. 
  
 Before the Gemini, I was using a Supra USB cable.. (had a good whathifi review).. pretty cheap and possibly a step up from standard, but if I remember correct the iPower includes a nice USB cable in the box.
  
 I also bought and tried an iPurifier but with another DDC before I got the U12, but there was no improvement in my system with the iPurifier .


----------



## motberg

rb2013 said:


> Yes Xtreme works as well.  I tried KS works as well.  Buffer settings 32 , 96K 128, 192K 512.  I upsample all redbook 16/44 to 192k in foobar with SoX (50% Phase Response, No Aliasing, Passband 95%, Qaulity = High)


 

 Good info - I may try this driver as I could use a clean 1 or 2 db balance control... I am using the standard driver that came on the little U12 disc. JPlay settings are KS, Ultrastream, direct buffers up to 24/96 (current DAC limit), US size = 50, JPlay Mini, Hibernate mode OK...


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Good info - I may try this driver as I could use a clean 1 or 2 db balance control... I am using the standard driver that came on the little U12 disc. JPlay settings are KS, Ultrastream, direct buffers up to 24/96 (current DAC limit), US size = 50, JPlay Mini, Hibernate mode OK...


 

 +1 I'm the same.  Do to room issues I need that 1 or 2 db balance the WaveIO ASIO gives that option in the Thesycon Control Panel.  If you look under 'Status' it will show the sample rate being output to the DAC, under 'Current Sample Rate'.  With the SoX resampler you can change that at will.


----------



## conquerator2

Anyone had a chance to test with Gungnir?


----------



## rb2013

As a side note - for those DIYers out there - Sonic Craft has a great sale going on now.  So if you need some of the higher end caps and such - like Mundorf Silver or Gold/Silver - they're at prices I've never seen before (just got some Mundorf Supreme Gold/Silver/Oil 2.7uf's for $100/each for my R2R Lite60 DAC mod project).
  
 Back to our regularly scheduled program.


----------



## ted_b

rb2013 said:


> I can confirm my U12 outputs at 352K and 384K via spdif coax.  I have some naive 352K DLs from 2L and I can upsample with SoX 4x -so with a 96K x4 = 384K.
> 
> Just to confirm I tried to output these rates to one of my DAC's which can only accept 192k or less - it unlocked at those rates.  Relocked when I returned to 192K.
> 
> ...


 

 Great news for Gustard owners,but...how did you confirm?  "Unlocked at those rates" is not enough info for me; I am missing something.  And what DAC?  Did it report 352k or 384k? Gustard specs show 192K for SPDIF (384k for I2S), but that's all I am going on (except for everyone who has tried >192k failed).   I don't own a Gustard, was simply telling folks that the Hugo is fine with those rates out of the box.


----------



## conquerator2

Hey, setting the U12 as a default device in Windows control panel [-> sound] might have fixed the issue... Will update again if it returns. Fingers crossed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
Nope... Really starting to think I have a defective unit... It just locks randomly while playing [not when idle]... The screen goes from [44.1/96/etc] to [--------].
  
Ow
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 See latest post


----------



## rb2013

ted_b said:


> Great news for Gustard owners,but...how did you confirm?  "Unlocked at those rates" is not enough info for me; I am missing something.  And what DAC?  Did it report 352k or 384k? Gustard specs show 192K for SPDIF (384k for I2S), but that's all I am going on (except for everyone who has tried >192k failed).   I don't own a Gustard, was simply telling folks that the Hugo is fine with those rates out of the box.


 

 In the Thesycon Control window under status I got 352,800 on some 2L hi res DxD DLs.  And using the SoX upsampler 4x feature on a 96K file I have 384,000 showing.
  
 But the best news was me and a friend are doing a Sokeris R2R DAC build project (seem previously posted link).  His is further along then mine (my board is on order) - we got a lock and output at those rates!  He had to leave so we couldn't mess with it much - but it sounded good.


----------



## rb2013

Stumbled on to this CA thread about the U12 (this one was mentioned early on!)  we beat them to the punch!  Lot's of good info.  It seems like it's unanimously well liked -by a very knowledgeable, experienced and tough crowd!
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/gustard-u12-22517/
  
 Quote: Back in Dec 2014 





> The Gustard is mentioned quite a bit in a thread titled "What are the new asynch​USBconverter contenders for 2014?". The​head-fiforums are abuzz over it too.​


 
  


> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  


> I have a​SOTMSMS-100 and it works perfectly with the Gustard U12. There is no change in sampling frequency from the SMS-100 to the​DAC. The sample rate indicator on my​DACalways matches the sample rate indicator on the Gustard. Once broken in, the sound quality is terrific. No driver is required for the Linux computers, or the SMS-100.​


 
  


> I was asking for a list of common​modsearlier, minus the entire removal of the AC power system that Harpy has done. Feel free to add to it, it's just what I've found/am planning on.​​ ​ *Mods so far:*​​ - Replace 45.1584MHz clock with Crystek - 957 (CCHD-957 45.158MHz)​​ - Replace 49.152MHz clock with Crystek (CCHD-957 49.152MHz)​​ - Shield clocks with Mu-metal or 3M AB5100/S (or both, if you've got 'em  )​​ - Replace transformer with any CE, FCC, UL, etc. rated transformer. As long as there's more copper in it and it's rated, it should be fine. Transformers used on a previous Gustard - U10 upgrade were an Amgis/Alfamag or Talema unit.​​ - Shield transformer with copper, nickle or Mu-metal (or all 3, if you've got 'em  )​​ - Replace PS(power supply) filter capacitors with​capslike​Panasonic​FCs at 2200uf (I'm going to go a bit higher on capacitance)​​ - Replace the main rectifier filter​capswith ones like the Nichicon FP Polymers (2x lower ESR)​​ - Replace SPDIF/​AESpulse transformers with Murata DA101C; or ones like Newava S1122(very good feedback), Lundahl LL1572(used in Audio Note gear), or Scientific Conversion SC947-02(experienced users' best feedback)​​ - Shield XMOS and other chips with 3M AB5100/S​


 
  


> 1. Crystek 957 45MHz - I was wrong, it's a​22.5792MHz - Anyway, Crystek of this one - $27​​ 2. Crystek 957 49MHz - I was wrong, it's a​24.576MHz​- Anyway, Crystek of this one - $27​​ 3. Mu-metal & AB-5100(non-S) - already have and want to use on something. I have more than what I'll need for here.​​ 4. New transformer - (Amgis, for example) $20; but let's say a more expensive one @ $50.​​ 5. Copper, Mu-Metal, Nickle shilding - again, already have and want to use.​​ 6.​Panasonic​FC or Nichicon KZ @ 3500uf(for example) - $5-7(for 2)​​ 7. Scientific Conversion SC947-02 - $20​​ 8. AB-5100(non-S) - you know it.​​ 9. Murata - AC line filter choke - $2​​ ​ So, total cost to me is about $130, exactly what I paid for the thing, and pretty much what I had spit-balled when I was thinking about it earlier. That might seem outlandish, but the issue is that the Gustard was just so cheap from the beginning. If it was more expensive then it would make those prices seem lower and more realistic. Haha, in looking at what I'm planning to do and change on the unit, imagine how much that would cost from a retailer or modder...​​ ​ Like damn, I just finshed with that never ending nightmare, i mean funding, campaign of the Geek Pulse and modifications like that were like $100 a pop. But ahhh, I can't talk shiit too much. I'll be happy when I get my tricked out​DAC+AMP from them for work :-D​​ ​ Anyway, I bet if I geared this Gustard U12 thing up with those all​modsit'd be and interesting little piece of gear to listen to. Like I had mentioned earlier, even if it doesn't sound that great, the construction of it feels very impressive and I loved it as soon as I picked it up.​​ ​ I think it's not all that expensive for a fun little project. You're right about the amount of time though, I wish it would take a little shorter. I also hope I don't just screwing drop it or something when I'm done and ruin all my work @_@​​ ​ I'll definitely report in when it's all done; the months and months from now when that is ​


 
  


> Might also consider too:​NewClassD UWB Regulator​. Very easy mod, but jacks the price up $40.00.​​ ​
> 
> ​​ ​ Believe it is the 5v model. Resistor already in place.​


 


> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  


> U12 is UAC2-compliant and will work on Linux.​​ I'm listening to it connected to my Cubietruck running SOA.​


 
  
  
 It seems we are ahead Thesycon driver wise (WaveIO ASIO, Thesycon Control Window, Thesycon Spy Tool) - thanks to you Chodi!!!
  
 But they are way ahead on the mod front - lots of good suggestions.  Someone mentioned the Vanguard clocks there being the best.  Better get my soldering iron hot!
  
 PS These were only 'suggested' mods - not actually done - so we are ahead!  I have the Pannies FC's already in.  Lot's of talk about mods already done to the U10.  I want to see which Amgis transformer they try - as that was discussed way back last year.  And I think we determined it was not a plug and play drop in replacement, like on the U10.  It appears the transformer in the U12 may have an unusual - proprietary wiring configuration.


----------



## conquerator2

Yup knew it. It was the Gungnir.
They just don't work well together. Using a different lesser DAC to test and there are no locks anymore.
I am not sure what's causing it, maybe the Circultron technology? Dunno, really.
But it seems my U12 is fine. after all
Real happy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Ok, it locked again..... but after a longer period of time.


----------



## Chodi

rb2013 said:


> Stumbled on to this CA thread about the U12 (this one was mentioned early on!)  we beat them to the punch!  Lot's of good info.  It seems like it's unanimously well liked -by a very knowledgeable, experienced and tough crowd!
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/gustard-u12-22517/
> 
> ...


 
 Actually I am very active on the CA forum also but they haven't asked for my version of the driver so I haven't bothered. On CA things tend to get very technical regarding hardware you guys and those on this forum in general are more into the sound and describing what you hear. I still find lots of useful information on CA but if you want to know what something sounds like Head-fi is the place to be.


----------



## rb2013

chodi said:


> Actually I am very active on the CA forum also but they haven't asked for my version of the driver so I haven't bothered. On CA things tend to get very technical regarding hardware you guys and those on this forum in general are more into the sound and describing what you hear. I still find lots of useful information on CA but if you want to know what something sounds like Head-fi is the place to be.


+1 I can't thank you enough. That group of tools did the trick. Especially the vol/bal control. Very much appreciated, along with your knowledgeable posts.

Cheers!


----------



## Wynnytsky

conquerator2 said:


> Yup knew it. It was the Gungnir.
> They just don't work well together. Using a different lesser DAC to test and there are no locks anymore.
> I am not sure what's causing it, maybe the Circultron technology? Dunno, really.
> But it seems my U12 is fine. after all
> ...


 
 The guy who got me started with the U10 liked the sound of my U12 and ordered the same.  His unit would frequently get the dashes in the display.  We swapped units and mine never failed with his M2Tech Young.  His unit tripped up constantly with my Yulong D18.  He paid for shipping back to China and he had to stay on top of the guy because the tracking info on a "reverse commute" is as useless as USPS tracking.  Eventually he got his 2nd unit and he prefers it over his u10.
  
 Of the 4 u10s and 4 u12s my friends purchased, this was the first bum unit.


----------



## Wynnytsky

motberg said:


> Hi Wynnytsky,
> 
> Thanks for the multiple outputs confirmation (I think you maybe posted that info before.. much appreciated). I am thinking about using the  HDMI I2S and AES together. I now am using the AES to an Audio GD NOS1704 DAC and the results are outstanding...
> 
> ...


 
 You know I would be all over that P18 if I hadn't already spent 1450 on a PSAudio P3.  The coolest thing about the P3 is that I'll LogMeIn to my home network from work and switch on the P3 (via it's webserver) so the tubes are warm by the time I'm home!  I could also configure my FIOS router to allow a direct connection over the internet.  I couldn't figure out how to flash it's BIOS and the guys at PSAudio had a short meeting then flashed my unit from Colorado, like it was a cable TV box or something.
  
 Ha - I was hoping the iPurifier+gustard would have been identical to the iPower+gustard.  Sadly this will consume my thoughts while I'm on vacation for the next week.


----------



## Benny-x

wynnytsky said:


> Ha - I was hoping the iPurifier+gustard would have been identical to the iPower+gustard.  Sadly this will consume my thoughts while I'm on vacation for the next week.


 
  
 I own both the iUSB Power and the iPurifier, they're not the same. The iUSB Power only injects clean power and has a special ground switch for lifting the old "dirty" ground and establishing a new, clean one. It does this job well and even if I find after my extended listening sessions that the U12 doesn't need it, I'll still be keeping it.
  
 The iPurifier on the other hand has some "filtering" going on. It apparently filters the data +/- signals. As Chodi said, over on CA they're all about hardware, so if you look in the iPurifier thread you'll see a take down of the iUSB and iPurifier and get to see detailed pictures of their respective internals. In the end I haven't done enough listening with the iPurifier to say whether I think it's doing much or not. If I find it's not doing enough in my system then I may put it up for sale, but the iUSB I will not. 
  
 Hope the helps


----------



## Benny-x

rb2013 said:


> Stumbled on to this CA thread about the U12 (this one was mentioned early on!)  we beat them to the punch!  Lot's of good info.  It seems like it's unanimously well liked -by a very knowledgeable, experienced and tough crowd!
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/gustard-u12-22517/
> 
> ...


 
 I'm Ben-M over on CA. Both threads bring different things to the game, but Chodi was spot on in saying CA tends to be hardware focused. I'm happy both forums have different flavours, it helps satisfy both parts for me.
  
  


rb2013 said:


> I want to see which Amgis transformer they try - as that was discussed way back last year.  And I think we determined it was not a plug and play drop in replacement, like on the U10.  It appears the transformer in the U12 may have an unusual - proprietary wiring configuration.


 
 I actually opened up my U12 a couple days ago and tried to open the transformer part so that I could get closer and confirm the primary/secondary wiring layout, but I wasn't able to get the blue plastic case off. Now I wasn't trying all that hard and just wanted to have a look, but that's as close as I've gotten so far. 
  
 I will, however, restate that *NO ONE has confirmed that he U12 uses a proprietary wiring format for it's transformer.* Us modders wonder about this and have to be careful with it, but so far no one has confirmed left or right. Unfortunately I'll probably have to buy another U12 to mod because I don't want to brick the one I have as it's just such a useful and well built little tank.
  
 If someone has any way of confirming the wiring please PM me about it as I'm happy to check


----------



## abartels

I ordered 2x Panasonic FC 4700uF 25V Hope they are not too big to fit in,,,
  
 Has anyone thoughts about the exchange of psu diodes? I know, they are SMD types, not sure if MUR120 diode would be better.
  
  
 Anyone knows if there's U12 schematics available? Would be very nice for modding purpouses  
  
  
 FYI:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> I'm Ben-M over on CA. Both threads bring different things to the game, but Chodi was spot on in saying CA tends to be hardware focused. I'm happy both forums have different flavours, it helps satisfy both parts for me.
> 
> 
> I actually opened up my U12 a couple days ago and tried to open the transformer part so that I could get closer and confirm the primary/secondary wiring layout, but I wasn't able to get the blue plastic case off. Now I wasn't trying all that hard and just wanted to have a look, but that's as close as I've gotten so far.
> ...


 

 As always reading the thread is a good place to start (page 8 post #117)
  


> b0bb said:
> 
> 
> > The independent power supply helps a lot because it is no longer dependent on the weak and noisy USB 5V supply, which can only supply up to 500mA of current, that can drop to 100mA in some cases.
> ...


 


> b0bb
> 
> 18V Center Tap (9V-0V-9V) is the secondary voltage based on the pictures. The little metal can caps with the blue stripe on top are SMD, this can either be polymer or regular aluminum electrolytic, can't quite make out the markings on your picture. These have to be SMD not thru hole if you are replacing them.
> 
> ...


 


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the guidance.  It looks like the 115V pins on the stock are lined up to the left of the unit when viewed from the top and the model numbers on the top.  The Amgis looks like the 115V pins are on the *top*, again viewed from the top and the model numbers on the top.
> ...


 


> > Bobb
> >
> > Originally Posted by *rb2013*
> >
> ...


----------



## Benny-x

rb2013 said:


> As always reading the thread is a good place to start (page 8 post #117)


 
 That's 3 times across 2 threads, man. Reading my words as they're written is key to gleaning my meaning.
  
 If you read what I said, and that seems to be the issue, I said no one confirmed the difference. I haven't seen any pictures of you, or anyone else, cracking open your U12, taking off the transformer, measuring the voltages from the outputs, and confirming the orientation of the primary and secondary leads. And short of that I also haven't seen you with a wiring schematic from Gustard.
  
 Having not done or supplied evidence of either of those I think we sit exactly where I said, in that we worry that the primary and secondary wiring may be proprietary, but we haven't confirmed(there's that word again) it yet.
  
 As it was left off last time we discussed this, a month or two ago, until it can be confirmed(make sure you're using the appropriate definition of this word) we have to leave it as: 
  
"don't swap the transformer for whatever you find, because it probably, as opposed to definitely, isn't correct".
  
  
  
  
 *though you seem to have an issue forgetting I've been in this thread since about page 16, have talked with you on a regular basis, and have contributed to the discussion, I'm not here to argue with you. Referring me back to "read the thread" just makes you look like a dou**che, when I know you're not given the various discussions and contributions you've made. You have to understand that proclaiming that the transformer ISN'T the same, without 100% confirming it, is also bad. If someone doesn't read through the thread and sees you "proving" it's different then they may overlook possible alternatives that are simply rotated 90*. Installing one of those and it being a normal unit, just rotated, will result in the same catastrophic result as installing a normal transformer into a proprietary place.
  
 You need to understand that I'm not saying what we've found so far isn't right, I'm just saying that until we confirm it we can't tell people it is.
  
 Until we prove it we have to accept that other things are possible.


----------



## Benny-x

abartels said:


> I ordered 2x Panasonic FC 4700uF 25V Hope they are not too big to fit in,,,
> 
> Has anyone thoughts about the exchange of psu diodes? I know, they are SMD types, not sure if MUR120 diode would be better.
> 
> ...


 
 That is also what I REALLLLLLLLLY~ want. I can't find a contact for Gustard though, only wholesalers :-/  And they don't have the schematic   
 In my experience Chinese companies are really worried about IP and copies/fakes, so it's hard to get those kinds of things from them. It'd be awesome to get one, though. It'd give us a huge leap in modding ability.


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> That's 3 times across 2 threads, man. Reading my words as they're written is key to gleaning my meaning.
> 
> If you read what I said, and that seems to be the issue, I said no one confirmed the difference. I haven't seen any pictures of you, or anyone else, cracking open your U12, taking off the transformer, measuring the voltages from the outputs, and confirming the orientation of the primary and secondary leads. And short of that I also haven't seen you with a wiring schematic from Gustard.
> 
> ...


 

 OK?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Well I have at least addressed the issue - but be my guest and 'crack open' that case.  Or just drop any transformer into there - just keep a fire extinguisher handy.  Please report back on your results


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> That is also what I REALLLLLLLLLY~ want. I can't find a contact for Gustard though, only wholesalers :-/  And they don't have the schematic
> In my experience Chinese companies are really worried about IP and copies/fakes, so it's hard to get those kinds of things from them. It'd be awesome to get one, though. It'd give us a huge leap in modding ability.


 

 Maybe I'm missing something - but all I see is a link back to this thread. 
  
 Sorry sir - I can't abide your command to produce a U12 schematic instantly.  Please accept my humble apologies.


----------



## abartels

abartels said:


> I ordered 2x Panasonic FC 4700uF 25V Hope they are not too big to fit in,,,
> 
> Has anyone thoughts about the exchange of psu diodes? I know, they are SMD types, not sure if MUR120 diode would be better.
> 
> ...


 
 That is also what I REALLLLLLLLLY~ want. I can't find a contact for Gustard though, only wholesalers :-/  And they don't have the schematic   
 In my experience Chinese companies are really worried about IP and copies/fakes, so it's hard to get those kinds of things from them. It'd be awesome to get one, though. It'd give us a huge leap in modding ability. 

 ===============================
  
 Benny, see the link above from my post, (it's only 2 pages).
 The head-fi user Ansi has contacted the manufacturer and he will visit them next month!
 He even got offered the possibility to listen to all the Gustard products at their expenses!
  
 I hope he can get the schematics, and i also hope to hear more about the upcoming Gustard X20 Dac


----------



## Benny-x

Oh God, I'm being trolled.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Maybe I'm missing something - but all I see is a link back to this thread.
> 
> Sorry sir - I can't abide your command to produce a U12 schematic instantly.  Please accept my humble apologies.


 
 Yes, you indeed DO miss something 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The link refers to another thread,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
  
 It's 2 pages only, read it please


----------



## Benny-x

abartels said:


> ===============================
> 
> Benny, see the link above from my post, (it's only 2 pages).
> The head-fi user Ansi has contacted the manufacturer and he will visit them next month!
> ...


 
 Yeah, I knew someone in the H10 thread had contact. He was using an eBay seller, I think, that had good communication with Gustard. I wanted to email them, but could never find an address.
  
 I mistook that H10 thread for the new one you linked to, my bad. I'm also in China, so I'll have to PM Ansi and see what I can do in assisting anything with Gustard. Thanks, Abartels.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Yes, you indeed DO miss something
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I did - I see no link to a U12 schematic.
  
 I see link one to this thread:


> *U12 USB INTERFACE*
> *U12 thread*
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip


 
 Link 2:


> There's also the big thread on the U12 USB interface, but I dunno if it belongs in a thread dedicated to Gustard amps and DACs
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip


 
 Link 3 - page 2


> Hi Ansi,
> 
> I'm an owner of a Gustard U12 digital interface.
> If you are planning to go to the factory, maybe you could ask if there are schematics available!
> ...


 
 So where is the link to the U12 schematic?


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> I did - I see no link to a U12 schematic.
> 
> I see link one to this thread:
> Link 2:
> ...


 
 rb2013 i just pointed out that somebody, ANSI, has contacted the manufacturer and MAYBE has the chance to lay his hands on the schematics.
  
 And yes, i posted a link, but NOT to this thread, but to the thread where you can READ what he said 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:
 "Originally Posted by *ansi* 


  
  
 They are in Shenzhen. 深圳歌诗德电子 or Shenzhen Geshide Dianzi (Shenzhen Gustard Electornics) is the company name. The brand is not widely known since they are an OEM manufacturer, most of their products are re-branded or customized and sold by their customers in both China and abroad such as Rein, Valab, LJM... and many others. Like many old shanzhai manufacturers, they have started to develop their own brand as of late, but really have been around for a long time."
  
 and
  
 "
 edit: Called them up, happy to give me an interview. Feel free to send me any questions you want to ask em, cap'n 
 edit 2: Wow what nice guys. Not only did they invite me over to Shenzhen to take a tour and listen to all their stuff, byt they also offered to send me all their stuff to give them a listen, and cover the shipping back and forth."
  
  
  
  
 Isn't that interesting stuff?
  
 That's why i posted the link.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> rb2013 i just pointed out that somebody, ANSI, has contacted the manufacturer and MAYBE has the chance to lay his hands on the schematics.
> 
> And yes, i posted a link, but NOT to this thread, but to the thread where you can READ what he said
> 
> ...


 

 Oh Sorry!  I thought you had a link on that thread to the U12 schematic.  As you replied to my post about U12 schematics with
  


> Yes, you indeed DO miss something
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The post was interesting - but doesn't get us any closer to a transformer swap.


----------



## conquerator2

Has anyone compared the U12's ASIO vs WASAPI vs KS?
My trouble might only be related to the ASIO usage... No biggie as the WASAPI is an option too. To my ears they sound the same [only difference is that ASIO claims 32-bit,, while WASAPI goes to 24-bit 'padded' and KS stays at 24-bit]. Also, might be more practical.
Just curios what others think.
I had trouble with some ASIO drivers before. Also, both my DACs top put at 24/192, so the U12's ASIO output locking at 32-bit might be what's causing the problem... Would not be illogical.
Hopefully it will solve my problems.... I'll update again if not 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Sigh... Still, locks -_-
 Contacted Amazon about it.
  
 I'd love to do an exchange. Would hate to lose such a great product, honestly.


----------



## bussola

Just a question
 Do the gustard u12 support 384 kHz output via coax?


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Has anyone compared the U12's ASIO vs WASAPI vs KS?
> My trouble might only be related to the ASIO usage... No biggie as the WASAPI is an option too. To my ears they sound the same [only difference is that ASIO claims 32-bit,, while WASAPI goes to 24-bit 'padded' and KS stays at 24-bit]. Also, might be more practical.
> Just curios what others think.
> I had trouble with some ASIO drivers before. Also, both my DACs top put at 24/192, so the U12's ASIO output locking at 32-bit might be what's causing the problem... Would not be illogical.
> ...


 

 If you are using Foobar2000 v1.3.4 - you can reset the bit rate in KS (Playback>Output>Output format>Output Data Format).  I can chose from 32-bit, 24-bit, 16-bit, 8-bit  Love Foobar!
 I believe in the Thesycon Control Panel under Format you can select 24-bit or 16-bit
  
 I can run either KS (XCore USB Audio 2.0 Output), WASAPI (XMOS XS 1-UB MFA (ST)), or ASIO (WaveIO ASIO Driver).  My favorite is KS then ASIO.   With KS if I don't set the Output Format in Foobar to 24-bit or less - my DAC (24-bit R2R) won't lock. With ASIO set for 32-bit (in the Foobar ASIO Virtual Devices menu>WaveIO ASIO set to 'SPDIF 32-bit'), Foobar grays out the Output Format - yet my DAC still locks.  WaveIO ASIO is set to 24-bit in the Control Panel.
  
 PS - Trying both the KS and ASIO on my main system last night - I preferred the ASIO.  It seemed to have better tonality, a fuller presence, the KS a bit more incisive.  It's nice to be able to toggle easily between each mode and listen to the differences.  On my office system the KS sounds a bit better. Both work with out issue.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Oh Sorry!  I thought you had a link on that thread to the U12 schematic.  As you replied to my post about U12 schematics with
> 
> The post was interesting - but doesn't get us any closer to a transformer swap.


 
  
 I am eager too to exchange the transformer, but, doing it without modifying the diodes and other components, it seems useless to me.
 When i look at the pcb i can see 8 SMT diodes. When i look at the transformer i can see that there are TWO 9V outputs.
 But, i can only see ONE power regulator.
  
 So, i really need schematics before i'm going to rebuild the powerstage.
  
 Exchanging the transformer to a better one is not useless, but, i want to overhaul it completely, with fast diodes and super regulators.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> I am eager too to exchange the transformer, but, doing it without modifying the diodes and other components, it seems useless to me.
> When i look at the pcb i can see 8 SMT diodes. When i look at the transformer i can see that there are TWO 9V outputs.
> But, i can only see ONE power regulator.
> 
> ...


 

 That sounds like a good plan - I have contacted my supplier to see if he can provide a U12 schematic.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> That sounds like a good plan - I have contacted my supplier to see if he can provide a U12 schematic.


 
 +1 Thanks! (Maybe the answer will take longer as normally expected, it's Chinese New Year)


----------



## conquerator2

Ok. I decided to peak inside my U12 to see whether there was anything physically wrong with it. Everything seemed fine. [Side-note: one of the screws has seen better days... As in, it was semi-butchered from the factory and I am not sure I'll be able to get it out again without drilling it... This is my 3rd Chinese DAC/amp/converter [2x Audio-gd, 1x Gustard] to have this problem in a row! Is screw consistency really so hard to get right in China... And no, it is not my fault. It arrived that way new from the factory!]
  
 Anyway, since everything seemed fine, I did one last thing as a last-resort-possible-solution - I uninstalled every other audio driver I had present on my PC that could possibly interfere-
  
 Oh, it just locked... Never mind! But it played fine for 20 minutes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I guess returning it back is the only possibility.
  
 EDIT: Another 20mins+ and running without locking... Hmmm... This is really strange. Something must be causing the locks, not necessarily the device. I am really torn because shipping the unit to China for exchange is 40$, something Amazon probably won't pay for me or the seller...
  
 Another lock after 20 minutes... Hm...


----------



## conquerator2

> The guy who got me started with the U10 liked the sound of my U12 and ordered the same.  His unit would frequently get the dashes in the display.  We swapped units and mine never failed with his M2Tech Young.  His unit tripped up constantly with my Yulong D18.  He paid for shipping back to China and he had to stay on top of the guy because the tracking info on a "reverse commute" is as useless as USPS tracking.  Eventually he got his 2nd unit and he prefers it over his u10.





> Of the 4 u10s and 4 u12s my friends purchased, this was the first bum unit.


 
 Seems exactly like the same problem I am having...


----------



## elwappo99

conquerator2 said:


> > [CONTENTEMBED=/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/690#post_11332630 layout=inline] [/CONTENTEMBED]
> > [CONTENTEMBED=/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/690#post_11332630 layout=inline]Of the 4 u10s and 4 u12s my friends purchased, this was the first bum unit.[/CONTENTEMBED]
> 
> 
> ...




Bummer. Seems like there's only one fix.


----------



## mz2014

Hi
 Can someone show me how Gustard U12 has marked pins on the I2S output, please.


----------



## MINORISUKE

mz2014 said:


> Hi
> Can someone show me how Gustard U12 has marked pins on the I2S output, please.


 
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/U10-XMOS-USB-digital-0-1PPM-crystal-independent-linear-power-supply-384K/1859929284.html


----------



## mz2014

Thanks MINORISUKE


----------



## preproman

conquerator2 said:


> Ok. I decided to peak inside my U12 to see whether there was anything physically wrong with it. Everything seemed fine. [Side-note: one of the screws has seen better days... As in, it was semi-butchered from the factory and I am not sure I'll be able to get it out again without drilling it... This is my 3rd Chinese DAC/amp/converter [2x Audio-gd, 1x Gustard] to have this problem in a row! Is screw consistency really so hard to get right in China... And no, it is not my fault. It arrived that way new from the factory!]
> 
> Anyway, since everything seemed fine, I did one last thing as a last-resort-possible-solution - I uninstalled every other audio driver I had present on my PC that could possibly interfere-
> 
> ...


 

 Are you having any problems at all with the DI 2014?


----------



## Hun7er

Hi,
  
 I just bought an Gustard U12. Hope the product will work fine. For the price it seems an steal !


----------



## rb2013

Just added some of the 3M AB-5100S EMI absorber shielding to the my 2 U12's - noted no major change in sound - maybe a bit more clarity.  The $40 would probably be better spent on a  better power chord.  YMMV...


----------



## rb2013

hun7er said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just bought an Gustard U12. Hope the product will work fine. For the price it seems an steal !


 

 Good Luck!


----------



## Hun7er

rb2013 said:


> Good Luck!


 
  
 Wow the there is so much failure ?


----------



## rb2013

hun7er said:


> Wow the there is so much failure ?


 

 No - I love mine and have not a bit of trouble.  Getting the driver loaded is just a bit tricky - but once that's done -amazing sound.
  
 I should have said:
  
 Cheers!


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> Just added some of the 3M AB-5100S EMI absorber shielding to the my 2 U12's - noted no major change in sound - maybe a bit more clarity.  The $40 would probably be better spent on a  better power chord.  YMMV...




My mileage did vary...

http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/735#post_11319496


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> My mileage did vary...
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/735#post_11319496


 

 Nice post!  I didn't put any on the caps for heat reasons (and the way to tell a bad or failing cap is a slight bulge on the top).  But covered the transformer top and inside sides.  I even made a 'Faraday Cage' for the spdif coax external plug. 
  
 It was cheap enough and did help slightly.  I used some on my DACs as well - and still have lot's left over.


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> Nice post!  I didn't put any on the caps for heat reasons (and the way to tell a bad or failing cap is a slight bulge on the top).  But covered the transformer top and inside sides.  I even made a 'Faraday Cage' for the spdif coax external plug.
> 
> It was cheap enough and did help slightly.  I used some on my DACs as well - and still have lot's left over.




Thanks. It was a fun and inexpensive tweak that I thought was beneficial enough to go whole hog. In my case, the biggest effect was heard with the X12 DAC, but I also did up my H10 amp in part two --
http://www.head-fi.org/t/735828/gustard-h10-high-current-discrete-class-a-output-stage-headphone-amplifier/795#post_11342558


----------



## conquerator2

preproman said:


> Are you having any problems at all with the DI 2014?




Not anymore. Installing the latest drivers fixed any and all issues I might have had.
Running second to latest firmware.


----------



## hgpsemaj

I could hear load of static noises when I connect my PC to U12 via a 'Light Harmonic USB Cable'. However, when I use a free of charge USB cable (i.e. it comes with my Agf, scanner.) instead, it is so quiet and smooth. Why? Please advise.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Just added some of the 3M AB-5100S EMI absorber shielding to the my 2 U12's - noted no major change in sound - maybe a bit more clarity.  The $40 would probably be better spent on a  better power chord.  YMMV...


 
  
 That is absolutely not my experience, i suppose it depends on the rest of the chain.
 After applying 3MAB5100S i got "more black", bigger, wider deeper sounstage.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> I could hear load of static noises when I connect my PC to U12 via a 'Light Harmonic USB Cable'. However, when I use a free of charge USB cable (i.e. it comes with my Agf, scanner.) instead, it is so quiet and smooth. Why? Please advise.


 
  
 Maybe your "Light Harmonic USB Cable" has cut-off groundwire. Can you measure if ground is connected in cable?


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Maybe your "Light Harmonic USB Cable" has cut-off groundwire. Can you measure if ground is connected in cable?


 
 Hello Abartels,
  
 Thank you for your reply today.
 If this is the case, I'd better send this cable back to the salesman and ask them to carry out the measurement for me.
  
 Regards,


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> That is absolutely not my experience, i suppose it depends on the rest of the chain.
> After applying 3MAB5100S i got "more black", bigger, wider deeper sounstage.


 

 I like it just didn't make more then a minor improvement for me.  But glad I did it - as it's cheap and easier to do.  My Gustard U12's sit very close to my power filters with large audio grade PCs all around them.  So I'm assured now that their proximity to the EMI/Mag fields are not affecting the U12's SQ now.


----------



## mz2014

.


----------



## Zoom25

I am thinking of picking one up. I will be using this with my macbook pro (Audirvana Plus and Amarra 3.0) to feed a Dangerous Music Source. I noticed that the Dangerous Source uses an XMOS as well. Can someone tell me how the chip in Dangerous Source differs from the one in U12 and what changes I can expect in sound. I'm also planning to order a Teradak LPSU for the Dangerous Source later, but might go for the U12 first. Any thoughts?


----------



## SodaBoy

zoom25 said:


> I am thinking of picking one up. I will be using this with my macbook pro (Audirvana Plus and Amarra 3.0) to feed a Dangerous Music Source. I noticed that the Dangerous Source uses an XMOS as well. Can someone tell me how the chip in Dangerous Source differs from the one in U12 and what changes I can expect in sound. I'm also planning to order a Teradak LPSU for the Dangerous Source later, but might go for the U12 first. Any thoughts?


 

 I think the U12 probably has a newer XMOS chip than the one in the Dangerous Source. However I don't think this is a big deal other than supporting higher output formats. The primary improvement will be in the U12 reclocking the signal which should reduce phase noise and improve the stereo image. It also provides galvanic isolation which would cut down on power noise from the transport.
  
 Honestly I think a low jitter signal will provide a more audible improvement than a linear power supply, assuming the power supply on the Dangerous Source is sufficiently capable.


----------



## manbear

Probably going to get one of these once I sell my Concero. I just got a used AGD DAC 19... I've read its usb implementation is not the greatest. I'll have to see how much difference i hear with the Concero as a transport.


----------



## bussola

Does the gustard u 12 stream a 384kHz signal trough the coax output?please I need to know,Third time posting the question
 Thank You


----------



## Zoom25

sodaboy said:


> I think the U12 probably has a newer XMOS chip than the one in the Dangerous Source. However I don't think this is a big deal other than supporting higher output formats. The primary improvement will be in the U12 reclocking the signal which should reduce phase noise and improve the stereo image. It also provides galvanic isolation which would cut down on power noise from the transport.
> 
> Honestly I think a low jitter signal will provide a more audible improvement than a linear power supply, assuming the power supply on the Dangerous Source is sufficiently capable.


 

 Yeah I tried to look for the specific XMOS chip in Dangerous Source but couldn't find it. It's a 192/24 DAC but everything gets oversampled to 352.8 kHz or 384 kHz, depending on the original rate.
  
 The Dangerous Source comes with a standard 12V 2A power adapter. The unit runs dead silent and don't have a complaint with it, but don't know it's full potential. I was looking at the Teradak 12V 13A LPSU, as recommended by someone.
  
 I'm looking at the U12 mainly for it's re-clocking purposes. I am eventually planning to add something like an Aries with Femto clocks to the Dangerous Source. Will the U12 be decent enough by itself in it's stock form, or do I have to further mod the U12. I would prefer to just buy the U12 and add it in the chain and press play.


----------



## johnnyb

I'm looking for a way to clean up USB sound and ran across this thread about the U12.  I have an original MF V-DAC which sounds good with the coax output of my NAD cd player, but obviously not the same with USB. Looked at Wyrd or iFi to  clean up the USB power, and also considering V-Link as an async USB -> coax SPDIF converter, however the U12 seems to function in both of these capacities and at the same price point.  Is that a reasonable approach?  I presume that U12 would also be a nice foundation for upgrading DACs in the future. Thoughts?


----------



## abartels

bussola said:


> Does the gustard u 12 stream a 384kHz signal trough the coax output?please I need to know,Third time posting the question
> Thank You


 
 Just fiddle a bit around with Google, translate some chines phrases, and you know the answer, no need for 3 postings 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Translation from gustard.taobao.com
  

```
[color=rgb(33, 33, 33)] U12 using XMOS company applies the latest in the field of professional audio chip U8, internal 8 -core , with a powerful multi-core multi-thread processing capability , is the industry's excellent USB Audio Class 2.0 digital audio solutions. Product Features : • Increase the screen , the sampling rate at a glance • Use XMOS programs to support asynchronous 32B 384khz 2.0 (USB recommendation ASIO output ) • Use a separate power supply. Built seal ring cow , multiple multi-level regulation. About the importance of independent power , I believe we all know. • Optimized audio clock circuit design , the use of high-precision active crystal 0.1PPM to provide more perfect clock signal to digital audio. Were provided by two crystal for 44.1 / 88.2 / 176.4 / 352.8Khz and 48/96/192 / 384Khz series signal rate after the rate selected only the selected clock work, work another one audio clock stop , prevent mutual interference when two clocks may bring work simultaneously.[/color]
```


```
[color=rgb(33, 33, 33)] • A total of four kinds of output: coaxial (RCA), optical fiber , AES / EBU, IIS (HDMI port ) [size=16px][b]Coaxial Optical AES / EBU output formats IEC60958 and AES3-r2009 standard limits the maximum support 24Bit / 192kHz; IIS can be transmitted 32B 384K[/b][/size] • smart switch , USB interface has a current boot. Interface with the computer switch and switch machine ( computer to be set off USB power off ) , or unplug the USB cable directly to the shutdown .[/color]
```


----------



## sbgk

it was the seal ring cow that did it for me, even the top of the range berkeley doesn't have that.


----------



## abartels

sbgk said:


> it was the seal ring cow that did it for me, even the top of the range berkeley doesn't have that.


 
 That's why i bought the U12 too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 hahahaha


----------



## abartels

The U12 supports the following samplerates on outputs:
  

```
[color=rgb(33, 33, 33)] [color=#FF0000][b][size=18px]Coaxial Optical AES / EBU output formats IEC60958 and AES3-r2009 standard limits the maximum support 24Bit / 192kHz; IIS can be transmitted 32B 384K[/size][/b][/color][/color]
```
  
 But, it is possible that higher samplerates work at S/PDIF output, but there's no guarantee that it works.


----------



## hgpsemaj

In fact, a toroidal potting transformers is not that dear. IMO, it's all about those manufacturers try to low down their cost and make the most out of it from our hard earn cash.


----------



## conquerator2

I am looking at the X12. Not much buzz about it but I am considering it when I get my U12 back


----------



## SodaBoy

zoom25 said:


> Yeah I tried to look for the specific XMOS chip in Dangerous Source but couldn't find it. It's a 192/24 DAC but everything gets oversampled to 352.8 kHz or 384 kHz, depending on the original rate.
> 
> The Dangerous Source comes with a standard 12V 2A power adapter. The unit runs dead silent and don't have a complaint with it, but don't know it's full potential. I was looking at the Teradak 12V 13A LPSU, as recommended by someone.
> 
> I'm looking at the U12 mainly for it's re-clocking purposes. I am eventually planning to add something like an Aries with Femto clocks to the Dangerous Source. Will the U12 be decent enough by itself in it's stock form, or do I have to further mod the U12. I would prefer to just buy the U12 and add it in the chain and press play.


 

 The U12 is good to go, I have mine setup and am very pleased with it. I don't see modding it as necessary, that is more of a hobby pursuit. I feel that the U12 has more or less already realized the margins of the potential of TCXOs. I think to achieve that next level of performance, one would need to look at OCXOs which can be an order of magnitude more accurate than TCXOs, and quite expensive to boot.


----------



## rb2013

sodaboy said:


> The U12 is good to go, I have mine setup and am very pleased with it. I don't see modding it as necessary, that is more of a hobby pursuit. I feel that the U12 has more or less already realized the margins of the potential of TCXOs. I think to achieve that next level of performance, one would need to look at OCXOs which can be an order of magnitude more accurate than TCXOs, and quite expensive to boot.


 

 Nice!  Maybe the next Gustard version will have a clock out and in option like the M2Tech Evo and Antelope.  Then just hook up one of these:
 http://www.antelopeaudio.com/en/products/10m-atomic-clock
  


> The Rubidium Atomic Clock is the perfect companion to the Isochrone audio master clocks such as the OCX or OCX-V. When connected to the Isochrone 10M, these devices switch over automatically from oven-based crystal to the superior Rubidium Core. Isochrone 10M is the ultimate tool in achieving analog sound. Experts agree that 10M is probably “the best sounding clock” ever produced.


 
  


> ...a clocking reference that is a staggering 100,000 times more accurate than the quartz oscillators used in most equipment.


----------



## sgbwill2

Hi, guys. I recently purchased a Yulong D18 but the optical out on my sound card doesn't work therefore I was thinking of buying the U12 to convert USB out from my computer to optical. As I am not very good with this kind of stuff I was wondering if this would work? and would it be able to handle up to 32-bit 192Khz recordings? Thanks


----------



## preproman

rb2013 said:


> Nice!  Maybe the next Gustard version will have a clock out and in option like the M2Tech Evo and Antelope.  Then just hook up one of these:
> http://www.antelopeaudio.com/en/products/10m-atomic-clock


 

 What are some cheaper alternatives?


----------



## rb2013

http://www.athensproaudio.gr/en/grimm-audio-cc1.html


preproman said:


> What are some cheaper alternatives?


 
 http://www.m2tech.biz/evo_clock.html - Although I don't know if it's that much better then the Gustards.
  
 http://www.athensproaudio.gr/en/grimm-audio-cc1.html


----------



## abartels

sgbwill2 said:


> Hi, guys. I recently purchased a Yulong D18 but the optical out on my sound card doesn't work therefore I was thinking of buying the U12 to convert USB out from my computer to optical. As I am not very good with this kind of stuff I was wondering if this would work? and would it be able to handle up to 32-bit 192Khz recordings? Thanks


 
 Probably 24Bit 192Khz only


----------



## sgbwill2

abartels said:


> Probably 24Bit 192Khz only


 
 Ok thank you. To exceed this would I need to change my source? and would it work in the way I am planning to use it? as a usb to optical converter. Sorry if these are noobie questions but I have no idea about this and I don't want to buy it and waste money if it doesn't do what I need it to do


----------



## abartels

sgbwill2 said:


> Ok thank you. To exceed this would I need to change my source? and would it work in the way I am planning to use it? as a usb to optical converter. Sorry if these are noobie questions but I have no idea about this and I don't want to buy it and waste money if it doesn't do what I need it to do


 
 Please read post # 745
  
 As far as i can see Yulong D18 has NO i2s input, so, max 24/192 with U12 @ Coax/Optical/AES


----------



## sgbwill2

abartels said:


> Please read post # 745
> 
> As far as i can see Yulong D18 has NO i2s input, so, max 24/192 with U12 @ Coax/Optical/AES


 
 Thanks. No it doesn't have an i2s input. Why would yulong advertise it as a 32bit/192khz DAC though?


----------



## abartels

sodaboy said:


> The U12 is good to go, I have mine setup and am very pleased with it. I don't see modding it as necessary, that is more of a hobby pursuit. I feel that the U12 has more or less already realized the margins of the potential of TCXOs. I think to achieve that next level of performance, one would need to look at OCXOs which can be an order of magnitude more accurate than TCXOs, and quite expensive to boot.


 
 How about: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.40.cNOUDD&id=41154083487&ns=1&abbucket=7#detail
  
  

  
 They are available at the frequencies we need for U12, but, i suppose we need extra psu for them?


----------



## Benny-x

abartels said:


> How about: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.40.cNOUDD&id=41154083487&ns=1&abbucket=7#detail
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 You're the devil... Those aren't even that expensive. The Crysteks I was looking at upgrading to cost about the same, I think.
  
 I wonder what the quality of OCXOs at that price could be? Anyway, nice find. I wonder what they'd need for a PSU...


----------



## prot

benny-x said:


> You're the devil... Those aren't even that expensive. The Crysteks I was looking at upgrading to cost about the same, I think.
> 
> I wonder what the quality of OCXOs at that price could be? Anyway, nice find. I wonder what they'd need for a PSU...



Those are actually "too good to be true" prices. Here are some typical ones
http://www.newark.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15003&langId=-1&storeId=10194&categoryId=800000004553&sort=P_ATT_BASE_VALUE_1012358_EN_US&pageSize=25&beginIndex=1&showResults=true

So called audiophile parts go for a lot more, e.g. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/258789-pulsar-clock-ultra-low-noise-ocxo-4.html#post4101798

On the other hand, at that price you can order a bag full of them and try every conceivable mod 

Btw, my gustard just left china, cant wait to try it. Hope it's not another one of those inaudible "mods" cause I'm quite tired of that already.


----------



## abartels

benny-x said:


> You're the devil... Those aren't even that expensive. The Crysteks I was looking at upgrading to cost about the same, I think.
> 
> I wonder what the quality of OCXOs at that price could be? Anyway, nice find. I wonder what they'd need for a PSU...


 
 They need 600mA at warm-up and 200mA working, so they would need a heavier psu i suppose


----------



## abartels

Today i received the Panasonic FC caps. I ordered 4700uF-25V, hmm, they were bigger then i thought they would be,,,
 First i removed te Philps (BC) caps,

  
 and placed the first Pana,,,
  


  
 and then the second one,,,
  

  
 It looks a bit stuffed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 But, at least there now is some more room for "the regulator project" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
 And finally i put some 3MAB5100S around them so they can't get a cold 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm listening as we speak, soundstage definitely has some more layers in depth and width 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 There again is more air, more black around voices and instruments, and last but not least,
 everything sounds incredibly natural, seems the U12 does this with ease  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Best mod until now!!


----------



## sgbwill2

abartels said:


> Please read post # 745
> 
> As far as i can see Yulong D18 has NO i2s input, so, max 24/192 with U12 @ Coax/Optical/AES


 
 I read up on this a bit and yes the D18 can only play 24/192 because it doesn't use USB or I2s as you said. I think its a bit ridiculous that they state it is a 32 bit DAC when it doesn't actually have the inputs to support this. As I would have to buy a U12 to use the D18 anyway as a converter I am very tempted to sell the Yulong and buy the Gustard X12 instead as it works out as the same price but is able to run 32bit recordings. The X12 can be used directly out of my PC via USB right?


----------



## abartels

sgbwill2 said:


> I read up on this a bit and yes the D18 can only play 24/192 because it doesn't use USB or I2s as you said. I think its a bit ridiculous that they state it is a 32 bit DAC when it doesn't actually have the inputs to support this. As I would have to buy a U12 to use the D18 anyway as a converter I am very tempted to sell the Yulong and buy the Gustard X12 instead as it works out as the same price but is able to run 32bit recordings. The X12 can be used directly out of my PC via USB right?


 
  
 You indeed can connect the X12 directly to you pc via usb.
 But, it's better to use it together with the U12 for best performance.
  
 Maybe first buy X12 and in the future the U12 to upgrade performance, or, just wait a little bit more for the upcoming X20,,,,,,,


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> Those are actually "too good to be true" prices. Here are some typical ones
> http://www.newark.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15003&langId=-1&storeId=10194&categoryId=800000004553&sort=P_ATT_BASE_VALUE_1012358_EN_US&pageSize=25&beginIndex=1&showResults=true
> 
> So called audiophile parts go for a lot more, e.g. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/258789-pulsar-clock-ultra-low-noise-ocxo-4.html#post4101798
> ...


 
 I don't know if we have to exchange the TXCO's, maybe it's better not, this thing sounds incredible with the little mods i made so far!
 Best one was the caps (Panasonic FC 4700uF-25V), and "shield" everything with 3M AB5100S. I used it also underneath the pcb and in the top-cover.
  
 I was thinking about changing the LM317D for a powerreg, but not sure which one to use. The 330uF=16V caps have to be replaced when using some of the powerregs.
  
 to be continued,,,,


----------



## sgbwill2

abartels said:


> You indeed can connect the X12 directly to you pc via usb.
> But, it's better to use it together with the U12 for best performance.
> 
> Maybe first buy X12 and in the future the U12 to upgrade performance, or, just wait a little bit more for the upcoming X20,,,,,,,


 
 I have to sell the D18 first so I have a fair while to contemplate what to buy. Will the X20 be in a similar price range? Or has this information not been released yet.


----------



## conquerator2

Is there anything at all about the X20?
All I know is that it is coming and it the X12's analog stage is based on it


----------



## prot

sgbwill2 said:


> ... I am very tempted to sell the Yulong and buy the Gustard X12 instead as it works out as the same price but is able to run 32bit recordings....



You do know that those "32 bit recordings" do not exist !? And most prolly never will. 
In fact, there isnt so much stuff recorded above 16 bit and I'm not even sure that there is anything above 20 bit.


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> I don't know if we have to exchange the TXCO's, maybe it's better not, this thing sounds incredible with the little mods i made so far!
> Best one was the caps (Panasonic FC 4700uF-25V), and "shield" everything with 3M AB5100S. I used it also underneath the pcb and in the top-cover.
> 
> I was thinking about changing the LM317D for a powerreg, but not sure which one to use. The 330uF=16V caps have to be replaced when using some of the powerregs.
> ...



Doubt the modding itch ever stops . If it's possible, someone will try it. Even if it means putting $500 clocks in a $150 device


----------



## sgbwill2

prot said:


> You do know that those "32 bit recordings" do not exist !? And most prolly never will.
> In fact, there isnt so much stuff recorded above 16 bit and I'm not even sure that there is anything above 20 bit.


 
 I'm pretty sure 24 bit is commonly used in recording and production. 32 bit no, not currently but why not have audio equipment capable of this for the future if 32 bit recordings do come about? (even if the difference over 24 bit is inaudible to humans)


----------



## rb2013

sgbwill2 said:


> I'm pretty sure 24 bit is commonly used in recording and production. 32 bit no, not currently but why not have audio equipment capable of this for the future if 32 bit recordings do come about? (even if the difference over 24 bit is inaudible to humans)


 

 You are right about the recording industry using 24 bit - even DxD is 24 bit.  But for my own digitalized LP archive I did hear a slight difference using 32 bit/176K vs 24 bit/176K.  The software was Wavelab 6.0 and the ADC's 32bit AKM DAC's.   Funny after over a month of trying different sampling rates the 32/176 sounded consistently better then 32/192k or 24/192k.  I had many LPs to archive and didn't want to have to do it twice.
  
 In feeding my DAC's one a true R2R 24bit DAC (PCM1704K) - it will not accept these files native - I have to change the bit level to 24 in Foobar.  But my other DAC uses 32bit AKM DACs (6 per channel in a ladder configuration) and it does accept the 32 bit stream in native format.
  
 They both sound pretty awesome.


----------



## sgbwill2

rb2013 said:


> You are right about the recording industry using 24 bit - even DxD is 24 bit.  But for my own digitalized LP archive I did hear a slight difference using 32 bit/176K vs 24 bit/176K.  The software was Wavelab 6.0 and the ADC's 32bit AKM DAC's.   Funny after over a month of trying different sampling rates the 32/176 sounded consistently better then 32/192k or 24/192k.  I had many LPs to archive and didn't want to have to do it twice.
> 
> In feeding my DAC's one a true R2R 24bit DAC (PCM1704K) - it will not accept these files native - I have to change the bit level to 24 in Foobar.  But my other DAC uses 32bit AKM DACs (6 per channel in a ladder configuration) and it does accept the 32 bit stream in native format.
> 
> They both sound pretty awesome.


 
 Interesting. Wish I could try it myself but my gear restricts me from this


----------



## SodaBoy

abartels said:


> How about: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.40.cNOUDD&id=41154083487&ns=1&abbucket=7#detail
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
@abartels That OCXO is pretty nice for its price, it reminds me of what this guy did with a Teradak converter:
 https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=1EB7027489224A7D&id=1eb7027489224a7d!526&v=3
  
 I'm still on the fence about the 3M stuff, but I'm interested. I'm still mulling on what areas need application, need to read up the spec sheet on that material as well.
  
@rb2013 The atomic clock stuff is pretty crazy lol. I'm a bit tin eared, I don't think I could appreciate the difference but who knows. If I had that kind of money I'd probably get TOTL headphones, I think mechanical distortion at the transducer is probably a bigger contributor than the rest of the signal chain at that point.
  
 @prot I saw that Pulsar clock a while ago too on diyaudio. I had a chuckle because I couldn't imagine why an OCXO would be export restricted lol.
  
 @the i2s discussion:
 As for i2s, one needs to be very careful since there is no standard pinout. In fact, you can just assume that everyone is doing whatever the hell they want. For example Audio-GD and Yulong both have i2s through a RJ45 port. Same port no problem right?
  
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/diy/I2Skits/I2SEN.htm
 http://yulongaudio.com/en/product_detail.asp?pid=23
  
 But they are actually using completely different pinouts. And the Gustard U12 forgoes the RJ45 port entirely for an HDMI port. With something DIY like the Buffalo it's no big deal. However if you bought into a brand, you are pretty much stuck with it lol.
  
 Thankfully if you have deep pockets and buy something $2k+, you wouldn't even need an external usb interface.
  
 @gustard x20
  
 I'm curious what the X20 will be like too. But I didn't wait to find out, I just bought the X12 since I doubt I could afford the X20 anyways.
  
 My idle speculation on the X20:
  
 - Integrated DAC/AMP combo, like the Yulong and Audio-GD offerings
 - Possible balanced headphone out along with single ended, since people love balanced and it's all the rage (I still like SE lol)
 - Around or slightly below $1k MSRP
  
 OR
  
 They could pull off something crazy that would excite me, like a pure DAC dual mono ES9018 implementation, kind of like what L.K.S. Audio did.
  
 I still think they will just come out with an integrated DAC/AMP box that everyone loves so much. I think the vast majority of setups being sold are integrated boxes nowadays.


----------



## rb2013

sodaboy said:


> @rb2013 The atomic clock stuff is pretty crazy lol. I'm a bit tin eared, I don't think I could appreciate the difference but who knows. If I had that kind of money I'd probably get TOTL headphones, I think mechanical distortion at the transducer is probably a bigger contributor than the rest of the signal chain at that point.


 
 +1 Atomic clocks - for the audiophile who has everything!   Well for me the issue with those external clocks is the signal delay issues caused by the cable run and connectors.  I've always heard the clocks should be as close as possible to the DAC chips to reduce jitter.
  
 I just swapped the caps in my R2R DAC mod project from Mundorf Silver/Oil Supremes to Sliver/Gold/Oil Supremes - now that was $200 very well spent.  The midrange tonal richness and bass extension/definition just took a nice leap forward.  Not subtle.


----------



## SodaBoy

rb2013 said:


> +1 Atomic clocks - for the audiophile who has everything!   Well for me the issue with those external clocks is the signal delay issues caused by the cable run and connectors.  I've always heard the clocks should be as close as possible to the DAC chips to reduce jitter.
> 
> I just swapped the caps in my R2R DAC mod project from Mundorf Silver/Oil Supremes to Sliver/Gold/Oil Supremes - now that was $200 very well spent.  The midrange tonal richness and bass extension/definition just took a nice leap forward.  Not subtle.


 

 I'm lusty for R2R and NOS dacs lol, but the closest I can get is this humble, battery powered NOS DAC (even this I could not afford, after my pockets were lightened by Gustard):
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/200916160114
  
 As for the external clock, I'd be more worried about the cable run picking up noise lol. It should be OK in my case as HDMI cables are generally pretty well shielded, and my cable is pretty short.


----------



## preproman

Can someone shoot me a link to the bustard x20?
  
 Thanks


----------



## abartels

sgbwill2 said:


> I have to sell the D18 first so I have a fair while to contemplate what to buy. Will the X20 be in a similar price range? Or has this information not been released yet.


 
 There's no info at the moment, we even don't know for shure it will come in the near future, but it's said that Gustard's flagship would come out after chinese new year,
 but, that could also be in december hahaha
  
 No info about pricing or specs


----------



## abartels

preproman said:


> Can someone shoot me a link to the bustard x20?
> 
> Thanks


 
 There isn't any, just the mentioning of flagship X20 on website gustard.taobao.com


----------



## prot

sgbwill2 said:


> I'm pretty sure 24 bit is commonly used in recording and production. 32 bit no, not currently but why not have audio equipment capable of this for the future if 32 bit recordings do come about? (even if the difference over 24 bit is inaudible to humans)



You can of course produce a 1024 bit recording too if you want. But that's just adding zeros. There is no ADC or DAC device that can process even a *true* 24bit recording. And prolly will never be because true 24bit means 144db dynamic range and that sound level may actually kill a human being. And 32 bit (192db) will almost surely do if you somehow manage to play it. 
Anyway, this is not the place for such discussions... try and read some in the science forum ... e.g. this first post http://www.head-fi.org/t/415361/24bit-vs-16bit-the-myth-exploded .. or this nice video http://youtu.be/nLEhfieoMq8.


----------



## abartels

sodaboy said:


> @abartels That OCXO is pretty nice for its price, it reminds me of what this guy did with a Teradak converter:
> https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=1EB7027489224A7D&id=1eb7027489224a7d!526&v=3
> 
> I'm still on the fence about the 3M stuff, but I'm interested. I'm still mulling on what areas need application, need to read up the spec sheet on that material as well.
> ...


 
 I really don't think it will be an integrated device. Since they call it "a Flagship" i suppose it will be a dac with several parallel ESS9018 chips, or indeed at least one per channel.
 Maybe even a BB1704 dac, but then it would be an expensive dac since those chips are expensive nowadays,,,
  
 I hope we will get some more info real soon!


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> I just swapped the caps in my R2R DAC mod project from Mundorf Silver/Oil Supremes to Sliver/Gold/Oil Supremes - now that was $200 very well spent.  The midrange tonal richness and bass extension/definition just took a nice leap forward.  Not subtle.


 
  
 Have any pics to share with us?


----------



## hgpsemaj

I contacted huang_cs of 'Gustard Taobao' today. And, I enquired that could I order an U12 with OCXO36 clock, and their answer is NO. 
 Too bad, I must exercise my tool set very soon.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> I contacted huang_cs of 'Gustard Taobao' today. And, I enquired that could I order an U12 with OCXO36 clock, and their answer is NO.
> Too bad, I must exercise my tool set very soon.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Can you ask him when X20 will come out, and if there's some info about specs and pricing?


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can you ask him when X20 will come out, and if there's some info about specs and pricing?


 
 Please hold.


----------



## hgpsemaj

huang_cs of Gustard Taobao informed me X20 is a DAC, the selling price is around RMB4,000 and expect to launch before 1st July this year.


----------



## hgpsemaj

huang_cs claims those specifications and other details of X20 are not released yet.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> huang_cs of Gustard Taobao informed me X20 is a DAC, the selling price is around RMB4,000 and expect to launch before 1st July this year.


 
  
 +1 Okay, thank you for the info!!!


----------



## prot

hgpsemaj said:


> huang_cs of Gustard Taobao informed me X20 is a DAC, the selling price is around RMB4,000 and expect to launch before 1st July this year.



Thx for the info. Just to make sure I do not screw the conversion again RMB=CNY=chinese yuan ?! 
In that case 4000 is about $650. Which sounds pretty good for a device which is supposedly much better than the current X12. 

And if you have an open line with Gustard, how about asking if it's feasible to use a hq OCXO in U12... and if they think it will bring any SQ benefits.


----------



## hgpsemaj

prot said:


> Thx for the info. Just to make sure I do not screw the conversion again RMB=CNY=chinese yuan ?!
> In that case 4000 is about $650. Which sounds pretty good for a device which is supposedly much better than the current X12.
> 
> And if you have an open line with Gustard, how about asking if it's feasible to use a hq OCXO in U12... and if they think it will bring any SQ benefits.


 
 (i)   RMB4,000 is about US$650.
 (ii)  huang_cs claims it is feasible to replace it by OCXO in U12.
 (iii) He said Gustard would not provide any technical support for modification works.
 (iv) At the end, I ask him do I need to adjust any voltage and/or parameters? In his reply, he said it depends on how specific our work.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Have any pics to share with us?


 
 I posted them on the last here http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project


----------



## prot

hgpsemaj said:


> (i)   RMB4,000 is about US$650.
> (ii)  huang_cs claims it is feasible to replace it by OCXO in U12.
> (iii) He said Gustard would not provide any technical support for modification works.
> (iv) At the end, I ask him do I need to adjust any voltage and/or parameters? In his reply, he said it depends on how specific our work.



Manx thx again. Guess that is pretty much the expected answer.
 Not a DYI expert but AFAIK the OCXO needs more power than TCXO. I would expect some power related tweaks are necessary: separate power source, diff regulators, etc. 
I would advise you to try the www.diyaudio.com forum for that kind of stuff. And here some xmos clocking info from a similar device https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2014/01/24/diyinhk-isolated-xmos-usb-interface/ 

Would be great if someone figures out a clocking mod that is reasonably easy and does not cost more than the U12.


----------



## hgpsemaj

I raise the same queries to the OCXO supplier of Taobao couple of minutes ago. Our local time is 23:54, and I expect they would answer my query sometimes tomorrow.
 Hopefully, It would gather more information for us to replace the OCXO / TCXO.


----------



## prot

How about one of these http://www.iqdfrequencyproducts.com/about/press/2014/06/04/iqd-s-launches-new-±0-2ppb-ocxo-at-ims-2014/
0.2ppB stability. That taobao thing with 0.05ppM looks lame in comparison. 
OTOH, one of those lil craps costs same as much as the U12. Add two of them plus other parts and labor and we have a $1K Gustard. TOTL though


----------



## SodaBoy

The X20 is pretty cheap lol, so ironically I could afford it, but I couldn't wait till July anyways. I'm glad that they didn't cop out and push out an integrated box like everyone else. I'm pretty stumped on how they will improve it though. They might use the new ES9018 chip, which has slightly lower distortion, different pins, and a larger integrated feature set. Maybe improve the onboard clocks and USB implementation. I think the biggest area of improvement will probably be in the power supply and regulation. Maybe move to a single transformer with more taps as well.
  
 As for the OCXO, it looks pretty cramped in the U12, both chassis and the board. Depending on size and power reqs, you might need a daughter board. I'm not really brave enough to try. Probably better off upgrading to something like the Crysteks, or those fancy smancy new femto clocks.


----------



## hgpsemaj

hgpsemaj said:


> I raise the same queries to the OCXO supplier of Taobao couple of minutes ago. Our local time is 23:54, and I expect they would answer my query sometimes tomorrow.
> Hopefully, It would gather more information for us to replace the OCXO / TCXO.


 
  
 The OCXO supplier of Taobao forwarded me the reply as follow:
  
'您好，您用的TCXO的电源电压是多少V的，订制OCXO替代时的电源电压也要用多少V的供电就可以了，还要注意您的电源输出电流的大小，至少输出电流大于1A（一般的客户都是用单独的电源给OCXO供电）。另外功能引脚也不一样，只要正确连接就可以用了
 请问您是哪里，方便留您的电话给我，我联系您'
  
Mr. Google translates it as follows:
  
 "Hello, you use the power supply voltage V TCXO is how much, and how much V power supply voltage on it when ordered OCXO have to use an alternative, but also pay attention to the size of your power supply output current, the output current is greater than at least 1A (general customers are using a separate power supply for OCXO). Another function pins are not the same, as long as the correct connection can be used
 May I ask where you are, conveniently leaving your phone to me, I contact you"
  
  
  
 I expect the TCXO supplier might contact me this week. And, I shall keep you inform about the progress.


----------



## hgpsemaj

OCXO supplier of Taobao  forward the following diagram to me today:
  

  
  
 He stress that we must provide power supply to OCXO independently. And, it would take three days for them to test the OCXO thoroughly before any delivery.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> OCXO supplier of Taobao  forward the following diagram to me today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm affraid we have to build an external psu for the OCXO, one with HQ regulator, HQ caps and all,,,
 Since all OCXO's need "a lot" of power at warm-up we have to design a HQ psu which can deliver about 10 Watts (to be safe,,,)
  
 Further, we have to solder a socket on the PCB instead of the parent TCXO, and feed pin 3 from external psu.
  
 Cabling from external psu to OCXO must be carefully selected (twisted + shielded), and probably extra buffered with HQ caps
 as near as possible at OXCO.
  
 Just my 5 cents,,


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> I contacted huang_cs of 'Gustard Taobao' today. And, I enquired that could I order an U12 with OCXO36 clock, and their answer is NO.
> Too bad, I must exercise my tool set very soon.


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Did you ask huang_cs for schematics U12? If not, can you please ask him?


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Hi,
> 
> Did you ask huang_cs for schematics U12? If not, can you please ask him?


 
 I contacted huang_cs of Gustard/Taobao today. But he didn't bother to answer any of my queries.
 Such a poor after sale service.


----------



## sbgk

see some devices have a 2.24 Thesycon driver eg wavio supposed to sound better, is this available for the U12/X12 ?


----------



## prot

Got a Q while waiting for delivery. My DAC (ee minimax plus) does not have an i2s input. Are there diffs between the other U12 outputs? Which one do you guys use/recommend? (aes/coax/bnc/opt are all possible)
And make it two Qs: is the supplied driver ok or do you use something else?


----------



## conquerator2

prot said:


> Got a Q while waiting for delivery. My DAC (ee minimax plus) does not have an i2s input. Are there diffs between the other U12 outputs? Which one do you guys use/recommend? (aes/coax/bnc/opt are all possible)
> And make it two Qs: is the supplied driver ok or do you use something else?




Supplied driver is fine but you can try a different one if you want.
I used Coax and BNC and both sounded good... Wouldn't worrytoo much about it


----------



## prot

conquerator2 said:


> Supplied driver is fine but you can try a different one if you want.
> I used Coax and BNC and both sounded good... Wouldn't worrytoo much about it



Thx for the fast answer. Just bought an AES cable cause I never tried those 
Do you have a link for alternate drivers? (tried some from the beginning of the thread but they seem dead)


----------



## conquerator2

prot said:


> Thx for the fast answer. Just bought an AES cable cause I never tried those
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 These are the official drivers I believe - 

```
http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntNXwN3
```


----------



## SodaBoy

chodi said:


> I modified the full version of the xmos driver 2.23 including the spy tool for the Gustard U12. I do not have a U12 to test it so one of you guys will have to try it and report back. I posted it here:
> 
> http://speedy.sh/RXMDH/Luckit-2.23-for-Gustard-U12.rar
> 
> ...


 
 This works really well.


----------



## prot

sodaboy said:


> This works really well.



How is that Luckit driver better? More stable, more features, better SQ...?


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> How is that Luckit driver better? More stable, more features, better SQ...?


 

 I does sound better to me.  A better ASIO build?  I particularly like the audio control window, with balance, bit setting, etc...  The Spy tool is very cool as well to let you know what is going on in the I/O 'stream'.


----------



## prot

And back to clocking, the OCXO road doesnt sound feasible. Too many modifications. 
Found a few TCXOs that have similar performance http://www.vectron.com/products/tcxo/tcxo_index.htm#tight 
The TX-402 looks pretty good, the 50ppb (0.05ppm) stability is same as the taobao OCXO. With low power and fast warm-up, may even be a drop-in replacement. 
Havent found any prices though, maybe someone can find a cheap vendor in asia...


----------



## natra084

Here is my review on the gustard u12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl-MMogHYIA


----------



## sbgk

rb2013 said:


> I does sound better to me.  A better ASIO build?  I particularly like the audio control window, with balance, bit setting, etc...  The Spy tool is very cool as well to let you know what is going on in the I/O 'stream'.


 
 I use wdm/ks and found the luckit driver was more digital sounding so went back to the original.


----------



## rb2013

sbgk said:


> I use wdm/ks and found the luckit driver was more digital sounding so went back to the original.


 

 Funny in one of my systems I do prefer KS and the other the WaveIO ASIO.  It may be system dependent.  In foobar I can switch back and forth with a click.  It's nice to have an easy choice.
  
 I'd play with the buffer settings and dither - again in Foobar an easy change.  I'm using dither and 7920ms buffer in Foobar and 8192 samples in safe latency mode in TUSB Audio Control.


----------



## prot

sbgk said:


> I use wdm/ks and found the luckit driver was more digital sounding so went back to the original.



Thx for the input sbgk & rb2013. The opinions seem somewhat inconsistent, guess it is all system dependent. The extra features sound interesting but the last thing I need are extra knobs to play with. Guess I'll go with the default drv. 
Btw the box arrived this evening, I may be able to write some SQ impressions 2mrw.


----------



## SodaBoy

prot said:


> How is that Luckit driver better? More stable, more features, better SQ...?


 

 Sounded the same to me, I use it for the tools. The choice of filters on the DAC has far more effect than different drivers in my opinion.


----------



## sbgk

prot said:


> Thx for the input sbgk & rb2013. The opinions seem somewhat inconsistent, guess it is all system dependent. The extra features sound interesting but the last thing I need are extra knobs to play with. Guess I'll go with the default drv.
> Btw the box arrived this evening, I may be able to write some SQ impressions 2mrw.


 
 think it takes a week to burn in, so will be interesting to see if you think it improves.


----------



## roman410

Hi, I got my Gustard U 12 last monday after month of delivery from Honk-Kong. My source of music is Logitech squeezebox touch with Triode's Enhanced Digital Output + Soundcheck's TT3.0 + SBGK's blog settings and work perfect under Linux. My first impression without burn-in was not too much positive compare to my previous DXIO PRO 3A converter, running on battery power. After that I replaced power cable and right now I am round 20 hours of burn-in. I planning make better comparison during weekend after minimum 50+ hours. What I can expect? How big impact of burn-in have on this device? It is same  like on vacuum tubes? Thx.


----------



## SodaBoy

roman410 said:


> Hi, I got my Gustard U 12 last monday after month of delivery from Honk-Kong. My source of music is Logitech squeezebox touch with Triode's Enhanced Digital Output + Soundcheck's TT3.0 + SBGK's blog settings and work perfect under Linux. My first impression without burn-in was not too much positive compare to my previous DXIO PRO 3A converter, running on battery power. After that I replaced power cable and right now I am round 20 hours of burn-in. I planning make better comparison during weekend after minimum 50+ hours. What I can expect? How big impact of burn-in have on this device? It is same  like on vacuum tubes? Thx.


 

 The DXIO PRO3A is likely better, it's using a more accurate NDK oscillator. The U12 may be better if you are powering the DXIO PRO3A with dirty USB power, but you were running off batteries which is very clean. The U12 goes up to 384khz, but realistically I don't think its clocks are up to the task at 384khz (especially with the ES9018), and unless you upsample there is next to no music in 384khz format. The U12 was meant to be a cheap setup that will get you 95% of the way there. You should still let it burn in though, the clocks need time to settle, there is initial drift.


----------



## gattari

roman410 said:


> Hi, I got my Gustard U 12 last monday after month of delivery from Honk-Kong. My source of music is Logitech squeezebox touch with Triode's Enhanced Digital Output + Soundcheck's TT3.0 + SBGK's blog settings and work perfect under Linux. My first impression without burn-in was not too much positive compare to my previous DXIO PRO 3A converter, running on battery power. After that I replaced power cable and right now I am round 20 hours of burn-in. I planning make better comparison during weekend after minimum 50+ hours. What I can expect? How big impact of burn-in have on this device? It is same  like on vacuum tubes? Thx.


 
 I have the same, a dxio pro 3 and the gustard, I use daphile and imho the gustard is superior in any aspect, but I never used a battery to power the dxio pro3, Anyway I used a linear power supply with dxio. My set up is pc based.


----------



## Arnotts

natra084 said:


> Here is my review on the gustard u12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl-MMogHYIA


 
 Good video, man.
  
 I agree, I think they could be a much bigger name if they had their own website and a bigger presence outside of Asia.


----------



## natra084

arnotts said:


> Good video, man.
> 
> I agree, I think they could be a much bigger name if they had their own website and a bigger presence outside of Asia.



thanks man


----------



## hgpsemaj

I've been told in Shenzhen, China, this Gustard  is a company makes a part or subsystem that is used in another company's end product. Thus, they may not be able to propagate their items publicly.


----------



## Gibalok

natra084 said:


> Here is my review on the gustard u12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl-MMogHYIA


 
 What are the plugs on back side?


----------



## natra084

gibalok said:


> What are the plugs on back side?



it is dust plugs bought on eBay


----------



## Gibalok

natra084 said:


> it is dust plugs bought on eBay


 
 OK. I just wondered whether its in stock  nice but plugs


----------



## Gibalok

One dummy question which driver option do you use in Jriver? XMS USB? or something else?
  
 Does it somehow affect the sound?


----------



## abartels

roman410 said:


> Hi, I got my Gustard U 12 last monday after month of delivery from Honk-Kong. My source of music is Logitech squeezebox touch with Triode's Enhanced Digital Output + Soundcheck's TT3.0 + SBGK's blog settings and work perfect under Linux. My first impression without burn-in was not too much positive compare to my previous DXIO PRO 3A converter, running on battery power. After that I replaced power cable and right now I am round 20 hours of burn-in. I planning make better comparison during weekend after minimum 50+ hours. What I can expect? How big impact of burn-in have on this device? It is same  like on vacuum tubes? Thx.


 
 The device needs about 150 hours to burn-in. Please compare after burn-in period.


----------



## abartels

Yesterday i swapped the cheap M4 diodes which is 1N4004 in SMD.
 I used MUR120 from ON Semiconductor.
  
 It wasn't an easy job since the M4's are surface mounted, and the MUR120 is conventional axial.
 But i fixed it, and, guess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 It again sounds a lot better, even while they aren't burned-in yet! I must say i think it's the combination of
 swapping the M4's with MUR120 AND the BC caps with Pana FC 4700uF-25V
  
 Soundstage is more lively, bigger-wider-deeper, more natural, and sub-low is almost frightening 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 1 mod to go, the LM317D swap with UWD reg, maybe next week,,,


----------



## sbgk

roman410 said:


> Hi, I got my Gustard U 12 last monday after month of delivery from Honk-Kong. My source of music is Logitech squeezebox touch with Triode's Enhanced Digital Output + Soundcheck's TT3.0 + SBGK's blog settings and work perfect under Linux. My first impression without burn-in was not too much positive compare to my previous DXIO PRO 3A converter, running on battery power. After that I replaced power cable and right now I am round 20 hours of burn-in. I planning make better comparison during weekend after minimum 50+ hours. What I can expect? How big impact of burn-in have on this device? It is same  like on vacuum tubes? Thx.


 
 Gosh, that's a hard core setup of the squeezebox touch, don't read about many people using those settings, but the blog still get's a few hits. I gave up on the touch and 
 explored windows players, first wasapi and then kernel streaming, still developing it. Recently have been exploring what effect the different methods and settings for loading the file into ram has on the sound quality, it's quite noticable and surprised me how it could be possible.


----------



## prot

sbgk said:


> think it takes a week to burn in, so will be interesting to see if you think it improves.



Not a fan of burnin stories, doubt I'll ever hear any of that. And dont really see what can "burn" in that device. Normally, if the clocks are not .1ppm when they leave the factory, you cannot sell em as such. But enough theory. 

Installed the Gustard yesterday and it has been running 15+ hours with a highres playlist (both 88/96khz). Used the driver from CD and it worked fine from the first attempt. It supports all outputs via foobar: ds, asio, ks and wasapi. Perfect. 
Config is laptop->viablue usb->gustard->inakustik coax->mmax plus dac. Using the gustard in the middle helped me solve some cable-length issues and reorganize the components a bit. Nicer looking rack and no visible cables anymore. Big unexpected plus for the Gustard. 
I also like the Gustard screen which shows the frequency. My DAC does not have one and I was always kinda curios if my foobar sox config works fine. Another big plus for the Gustard. 

And the sound. Did not perform any proper A/B. Would be hard due to the cable length issues. My impressions could very well be influenced by the reviews I read .. use lots of salt. I think the bass went a bit deeper and it's punchier. Used to be a very deep purrrr, now it hits harder. Not 100% sure I like that since I'm not a basshead but it's somewhat different. Pianos and cymbals seems to hang a bit longer in the air and the entire soundstage seems somewhat more detailed. All those are minute diffs and I'm not sure I will be able to DBT but it nevertheless feels like an SQ improvement. 

All in all, I'm very happy with the device and it is definitely worth the price. May post more impressions next week after the AES cable arrives. Thanks everyone for the help.


----------



## sbgk

abartels said:


> Yesterday i swapped the cheap M4 diodes which is 1N4004 in SMD.
> I used MUR120 from ON Semiconductor.
> 
> It wasn't an easy job since the M4's are surface mounted, and the MUR120 is conventional axial.
> ...


 
  
 Interesting. How about removing the transformer so it sits outside the case, must be a major source of emf, I plan to do it at some stage as it's always produced an improvement when I've done it to amps and cd players in the past. The other cheap mod is to disable any outputs that are not used eg the toslink is noisy and draws power.


----------



## abartels

sbgk said:


> Interesting. How about removing the transformer so it sits outside the case, must be a major source of emf, I plan to do it at some stage as it's always produced an improvement when I've done it to amps and cd players in the past. The other cheap mod is to disable any outputs that are not used eg the toslink is noisy and draws power.


 
 I want to keep the device functional as it is now, if toslink degrades sq, then i have to live with that.
 Removing the transformer is not an option for me, i will definitely shield the transformer with different kind of metals in a later stage.
  
 3MAB5100 does absorb very well, i doubt, if transformer is shielded with uMetal, that it will degrade sq a lot.
  
 Btw, yesterday i tried to remove the transformer to get the M4's more accessable, but i couldn't get it from the pcb, even i used a desolder iron,,,
 So, i soldered it back on.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Yesterday i swapped the cheap M4 diodes which is 1N4004 in SMD.
> I used MUR120 from ON Semiconductor.
> 
> It wasn't an easy job since the M4's are surface mounted, and the MUR120 is conventional axial.
> ...


 
  


abartels said:


> Yesterday i swapped the cheap M4 diodes which is 1N4004 in SMD.
> I used MUR120 from ON Semiconductor.
> 
> It wasn't an easy job since the M4's are surface mounted, and the MUR120 is conventional axial.
> ...


 
 Nice work there - tight spot and lot's of small pieces.  Would be good to do with a tranny swap.  Any further word on compatibility there?


----------



## prot

sbgk said:


> Interesting. How about removing the transformer so it sits outside the case, must be a major source of emf, I plan to do it at some stage as it's always produced an improvement when I've done it to amps and cd players in the past. The other cheap mod is to disable any outputs that are not used eg the toslink is noisy and draws power.




interested about disabling the unused outputs. Is it enough to just disconnect the wires or it implies desoldering some chips too? Or other mods which are hard/impossible to revert ?


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Nice work there - tight spot and lot's of small pieces.  Would be good to do with a tranny swap.  Any further word on compatibility there?


 
 Thanks for your nice words 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I didn't investigate if there's a compatible one, i know, if there's one available with higher amps it should sound better, i will do a search this for it weekend.


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> 1 mod to go, the LM317D swap with UWD reg, maybe next week,,,




Could you add some details about those UWBs ... like which brand do you have in mind? And what are the voltage/current specs on the current regs?
The bellesons look pretty good but they are quite tall, may not fit into that small case ... and pricey.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Thanks for your nice words
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yes and if one were to swap in the Murata's for the Pulse's that would be a good time to do it as well.


----------



## rb2013

gibalok said:


> One dummy question which driver option do you use in Jriver? XMS USB? or something else?
> 
> Does it somehow affect the sound?


 

 Depending on OS.  In Windows the Thesycon drivers - there are two versions mentioned in the thread.  I use Foobar so not familiar with the latest version of Jriver


----------



## natra084

gibalok said:


> OK. I just wondered whether its in stock  nice but plugs



no there are not stock you have to buy them on eBay


----------



## Hun7er

Hi,
  
 I received the U12.
 I'm a bit mixed about the sound.
 It renders fluid and smooth however the bass is less tight and there is less air.
  
 I install the driver include in the bundle. Should I wait for burnin ?


----------



## Arnotts

hun7er said:


> Hi,
> 
> I received the U12.
> I'm a bit mixed about the sound.
> ...


 
 Give it time. If it's not the product burning in itself, it is your mind getting used to the new sound. Psychoacoustics is a strange thing!


----------



## Hun7er

I will do it. Voices are so beautiful, full, textured that gives chill !


----------



## Hun7er

Seems Gustard lowering the output voltage so it decrease the volume. Does anyone hear this ?


----------



## prot

hun7er said:


> Seems Gustard lowering the output voltage so it decrease the volume. Does anyone hear this ?



That may depend on the kind of output you are using. I can confirm that the gustard coax seems quieter than direct usb to dac.


----------



## MINORISUKE

Has anybody tried to connect U12 via I2S for DSD playback other than X12?


----------



## rb2013

hun7er said:


> Seems Gustard lowering the output voltage so it decrease the volume. Does anyone hear this ?


 

 Nice feedback!  Are you using the optical or coax spdif.  What kind of DAC?


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> Could you add some details about those UWBs ... like which brand do you have in mind? And what are the voltage/current specs on the current regs?
> The bellesons look pretty good but they are quite tall, may not fit into that small case ... and pricey.


 
  
 We need the 5Volt type DX7805 5.0V UWB regulator
  
 http://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=70&hv=1


----------



## Zoom25

What about for AES output? Any voltage drops with it as well?


----------



## Benny-x

hgpsemaj said:


> (i)   RMB4,000 is about US$650.
> (ii)  huang_cs claims it is feasible to replace it by OCXO in U12.
> (iii) He said Gustard would not provide any technical support for modification works.
> (iv) At the end, I ask him do I need to adjust any voltage and/or parameters? In his reply, he said it depends on how specific our work.


 
 (i) The price is in RMB without international shipping, I'd guess. And if i can get he little U12 for ~$130, while you guys pay ~$180, then I'd safely add on $100 for shipping/exporting. Safe.
  


sodaboy said:


> The X20 is pretty cheap lol, so ironically I could afford it, but I couldn't wait till July anyways. I'm glad that they didn't cop out and push out an integrated box like everyone else. I'm pretty stumped on how they will improve it though. They might use the new ES9018 chip, which has slightly lower distortion, different pins, and a larger integrated feature set. Maybe improve the onboard clocks and USB implementation. I think the biggest area of improvement will probably be in the power supply and regulation. Maybe move to a single transformer with more taps as well.
> 
> As for the OCXO, it looks pretty cramped in the U12, both chassis and the board. Depending on size and power reqs, you might need a daughter board. I'm not really brave enough to try. Probably better off upgrading to something like the Crysteks, or those fancy smancy new femto clocks.


 
 The new ESS chip wasn't their top of the line model found is almost all desktop DACs, like the X12, it was ESS's smaller, mobile/DAP chips. The ESS9018K2M got replaced by the new, larger ESS9018A2QM, and some lower spec'ed ones got upgrades too. The focus was mostly on the K2M->A2QM upgrade though as this is what the big name DAPs used (Astell & Kern for example).
  
  
  
 And abartels, nice work, man! Keep it up. Give some Mu-metal a try on that toroidal. By the way, toroidals are supposed to be great for their low EMI contamination. The field shoots straight up and down form the centre tube, not outward like a doughnut. I'm sure some still does, however, and moving it outside like was said would be best.


----------



## hgpsemaj

benny-x said:


> (i) The price is in RMB without international shipping, I'd guess.


 
  
 Freight cost is various with difference regions. Thus, please confirm your exact freight cost with your own supplier.


----------



## prot

zoom25 said:


> What about for AES output? Any voltage drops with it as well?



Will test an AES cable next week. Normally there should not be any drops cause AES can deliver a lot more power than coax


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> (i) The price is in RMB without international shipping, I'd guess. And if i can get he little U12 for ~$130, while you guys pay ~$180, then I'd safely add on $100 for shipping/exporting. Safe.


 
 Here is the U12 readily available for $149 free shipping to the US
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-U12-32Bit-384KHz-DSD-XMOS-USB-Digital-Audio-Interface-/251688780563?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item3a99d20313


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> We need the 5Volt type [COLOR=000000]DX7805 5.0V UWB regulator[/COLOR]
> 
> http://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=70&hv=1



Nice pinout diagram thx. The newclassd are also quite tall, do they really fit into the case?

The belleson looks like a good option too, see http://www.belleson.com/order.php. Same as expensive but a bit smaller and you can order them with lm317 pinout.


----------



## prot

Can anyone confirm that the Gustard works fine without usb power ?
Thinkin about using a data-only cable. Or even upgrading to a MB that can disable the usb power.


----------



## lmitche

Without modification the Gustard U12 *does nee*d USB power.  There is an AC relay that switches it on when USB 5v power is detected.  I tried bypassing the relay, but no joy.


----------



## SodaBoy

benny-x said:


> (i) The price is in RMB without international shipping, I'd guess. And if i can get he little U12 for ~$130, while you guys pay ~$180, then I'd safely add on $100 for shipping/exporting. Safe.
> 
> The new ESS chip wasn't their top of the line model found is almost all desktop DACs, like the X12, it was ESS's smaller, mobile/DAP chips. The ESS9018K2M got replaced by the new, larger ESS9018A2QM, and some lower spec'ed ones got upgrades too. The focus was mostly on the K2M->A2QM upgrade though as this is what the big name DAPs used (Astell & Kern for example).
> 
> ...


 

 Yeah you are right lol, TBH I didn't even know the name of the new chip until you named it. I first came across it on the Light Harmonic forum, when someone asked for the DAC to be upgraded to the AQ2M. I always assumed the Geek Pulse was using the desktop chip (since it's a desktop DAC durr), so I assumed the AQ2M was an update to the 9018S. Only found out today that they were using K2M, good thing I wasn't a backer eh.
  
  


prot said:


> Can anyone confirm that the Gustard works fine without usb power ?
> Thinkin about using a data-only cable. Or even upgrading to a MB that can disable the usb power.


 

 It probably needs USB power for the handshake. I don't think even dirty USB power would be a problem for the U12 though.


----------



## Zoom25

prot said:


> Will test an AES cable next week. Normally there should not be any drops cause AES can deliver a lot more power than coax


 

  Sweet, let me know how it turns out. My DAC has AES input, so I can use either AES to AES from U12 to DAC, or coax to AES from U12 to DAC.


----------



## prot

lmitche said:


> Without modification the Gustard U12 *does nee*d USB power.  There is an AC relay that switches it on when USB 5v power is detected.  I tried bypassing the relay, but no joy.







sodaboy said:


> It probably needs USB power for the handshake. I don't think even dirty USB power would be a problem for the U12 though.




Oops, didnt expect that. Can someone confirm that the usb power is only used for handshake? Guess a dual Usb cable and a battery will work just fine in that case. 
Dont think that will affect the sound much, just wanna get rid of the usb power. Lets just say I'm going green


----------



## abartels

benny-x said:


> And abartels, nice work, man! Keep it up. Give some Mu-metal a try on that toroidal. By the way, toroidals are supposed to be great for their low EMI contamination. The field shoots straight up and down form the centre tube, not outward like a doughnut. I'm sure some still does, however, and moving it outside like was said would be best.


 
  
 Thanks, i will 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Have to buy some Mu-metal and will try.
 Yesterday i put some 3MAB5100s on, it's a little bit better, but, i suppose since i treated all components with 3MAB5100s difference is small.


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> Nice pinout diagram thx. The newclassd are also quite tall, do they really fit into the case?
> 
> The belleson looks like a good option too, see http://www.belleson.com/order.php. Same as expensive but a bit smaller and you can order them with lm317 pinout.


 
  
 Pinout is not correct since U12 has LM317D2T (surface mounted).
 I read some reviews about Belleson on diy fora, Belleson seems NOT to regulate as it should, it does filter noise but not regulate, so i am going for the NewClassD.
  
 If you replace Philips (BC) caps 2200uF-25V with Panasonic FC 4700uF-25V like i did, then there's room enough for the UWB 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 You still have to bend the connections but it is possible.
  

 As you can see, Input is the right pin and NOT the left one as showed on the UWB pic with normal LM317.
 On the PCB you can see three holes at the LM317's left side, they ALL are connected with output, so you can use one of those to connect to UWB's output.
 As ground you can best take -pole of one of the 2 Panasonic FC's
  
 Btw, Voltage output of LM317D2T in my U12 is 5.1V
  
 As you can see, i didn't fully cover the 330uF-16V caps with 3M stuff because we have to replace them with 10n (MKP)
 when swapping the reg with NewClassD UWB,


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> Oops, didnt expect that. Can someone confirm that the usb power is only used for handshake? Guess a dual Usb cable and a battery will work just fine in that case.
> Dont think that will affect the sound much, just wanna get rid of the usb power. Lets just say I'm going green


 
  
 USB power is used to switch U12 relay, so you REALLY need usb power.
 About the influence of dirty usb power on our U12 i can only say:
  
 Since dirty USB power has nasty high freqency signals in it, it SURELY will affect on USB-Signal wire, and, once received at U12's relay, there's also those high-frequencies INSIDE the U12 which we definitely DON'T want.
  
 I didn't test with USB cable but i did buy some USB A-B connectors (Taiwanese, gold plated, http://www.ebay.com/usr/hifiacoustic1 )

  
 I plan to make a good USB cable with external battery-power. I will post results when i'm ready


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> USB power is used to switch U12 relay, so you REALLY need usb power.
> About the influence of dirty usb power on our U12 i can only say:
> 
> Since dirty USB power has nasty high freqency signals in it, it SURELY will affect on USB-Signal wire, and, once received at U12's relay, there's also those high-frequencies INSIDE the U12 which we definitely DON'T want.
> ...



That is a nice & very reasonable ebay shop, good to know. 

My plan was to use one of those GB mboards who can disable Usb power. A straighforward and (more or less) free solution. But looks like I also need a dualhead Usb cable and a battery. Which means extra cabling, extra effort and about $100 ... doesnt sound as good anymore. 

In any case, very interested about the results of your Usb experiments. Maybe it's worth doing it afterall.

P.S.
btw, here's a dual head Usb cable I was looking at http://www.ebay.com/itm/181434240444. Expensive but quite reasonable considering that such pure silber cables sell for 500+. Doubt it will improve the sound in any way but it's surely shinny


----------



## lmitche

I was able to solve the "dirty power" problem using an Aqvox USB cable in combination with a Corning USB 3 10 meter fiber connection.  The Aqvox let's one substitute a clean power source for the 5 volt signal, and the Corning cable uses that power to do the optical to electrical conversion of the data signal in the connector immediately behind the Gustard.  The combo sounds great, recommended.


----------



## prot

lmitche said:


> I was able to solve the "dirty power" problem using an Aqvox USB cable in combination with a Corning USB 3 10 meter fiber connection.  The Aqvox let's one substitute a clean power source for the 5 volt signal, and the Corning cable uses that power to do the optical to electrical conversion of the data signal in the connector immediately behind the Gustard.  The combo sounds great, recommended.



Technically looks like you solved the problem. But do we really have a problem here?
 All I seen up to now were teoretical considerations about the *potentially* dirty Usb power .. and that's hardly enough. Especially since you just did a $200+ optimization to a $130 device. And the dualhead Usb cable route is not much cheaper either.
It's surely worth a try if you already have the necessary pieces but I dont wanna pay $200 and end up with the same sound.


----------



## lmitche

Well, that is one way to look at it.  From my perscpetive, I started with a $3500 Dac and added $350 worth of USB/SPDIF conversion and clean cable to it.  The SQ increase is much greater than the 10% increase in cost, so it is a good value.


----------



## prot

lmitche said:


> Well, that is one way to look at it.  From my perscpetive, I started with a $3500 Dac and added $350 worth of USB/SPDIF conversion and clean cable to it.  The SQ increase is much greater than the 10% increase in cost, so it is a good value.



That is of course another 100% valid way to put it 

My dac (mmax plus) is only $1000 though. But the main reason I'm so reluctant is that I already spent a lot of time and money on so called "audiophile" cables which did precisely nothing. Everything between printer Usb cable and pure silver cable did sound exactly the same on my system. I would prefer not to repeat that experience.


----------



## hgpsemaj

From my previous experience, both analogue and speaker cables provide very little return, unless you opt for '0.8 on Board Tara Lab's RCA or XLR analogue cables. However, power cords and digital cables enjoy much more value of money.
  
 And, when it comes to silver, you might need a Kondo's silver cable to enhance the treble.


----------



## rb2013

lmitche said:


> Well, that is one way to look at it.  From my perspective, I started with a $3500 Dac and added $350 worth of USB/SPDIF conversion and clean cable to it.  The SQ increase is much greater than the 10% increase in cost, so it is a good value.


 

 I have been rolling USB cables for 5 yrs and each sounds different - some better some worse (I've rolled 6 or 7 at this point).  This in on two separate systems one with a $8K APL DAC and another with a heavily modded true R2R DAC.   The best so far is the Synergistic Research Tesla Tricon USB, the worst the Cardas Clear USB.  Second best I have heard is the Silnote Poseidon USB.
  
 It's worth investing a good cable - vs mods first.  I try and buy my cables used on Audiogon and sell for approximately what I paid it they don;t improve the sound.  With a cable change it's easy to go back to what was before - not so easy on a mod.
  
 In my 25 yrs of active audio system building - I noticed sound improvements to be best judged as an additive and subtractive process.  First - additive - does the change improve the sound?  For the subtractive part of the process - when you reverse it does the sound diminish backward?  If so you've made real progress.


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> I have been rolling USB cables for 5 yrs and each sounds different - some better some worse (I've rolled 6 or 7 at this point).  This in on two separate systems one with a $8K APL DAC and another with a heavily modded true R2R DAC.   The best so far is the Synergistic Research Tesla Tricon USB, the worst the Cardas Clear USB.  Second best I have heard is the Silnote Poseidon USB.
> 
> It's worth investing a good cable - vs mods first.  I try and buy my cables used on Audiogon and sell for approximately what I paid it they don;t improve the sound.  With a cable change it's easy to go back to what was before - not so easy on a mod.
> 
> In my 25 yrs of active audio system building - I noticed sound improvements to be best judged as an additive and subtractive process.  First - additive - does the change improve the sound?  For the subtractive part of the process - when you reverse it does the sound diminish backward?  If so you've made real progress.



My experience couldnt be more different. Rolled about 20 cables: usb, interconnects, speakers. From the "supermarket" $2 cables to $500 ones. Never ever heard a single trace of SQ change. And wont invest any more time and money in cables and such. 
Oh well. We better get back to our Gustards. Cable arguments are the best way to derail a thread.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> My experience couldnt be more different. Rolled about 20 cables: usb, interconnects, speakers. From the "supermarket" $2 cables to $500 ones. Never ever heard a single trace of SQ change. And wont invest any more time and money in cables and such.
> Oh well. We better get back to our Gustards. Cable arguments are the best way to derail a thread.


 

 Well I have rolled over 50 different speaker cables, interconnects, digitial spdif cables and USB cables over the last 25 years and at least to my ears...they can make as big a difference as an amp or a PC/USB  interface.  And cost is not the final arbiter - I have $700 cables that sound way better then $2500 ones.  Some $140 interconnects that I currently use that are nearly the best I've heard.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aural-Thrills-Self-Powered-Active-Shield-Cable-1m-Silver-Teflon-Connectors-/251867824620?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3aa47e01ec
  
 I guess the saying goes YMMV.


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> Well I have rolled over 50 different speaker cables, interconnects, digitial spdif cables and USB cables over the last 25 years and at least to my ears...they can make as big a difference as an amp or a PC/USB  interface.  And cost is not the final arbiter - I have $700 cables that sound way better then $2500 ones.  Some $140 interconnects that I currently use that are nearly the best I've heard.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aural-Thrills-Self-Powered-Active-Shield-Cable-1m-Silver-Teflon-Connectors-/251867824620?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3aa47e01ec
> 
> I guess the saying goes YMMV.




That 'thing' you linked is not exactly a cable but an active component. Maybe that guy got it right, dont know. Dont care much either. Glad you enjoy your cables but after all the experiments, I doubt I'll ever buy a cable for SQ reasons again. If you want to continue the cable discussion, this should be a much better thread http://www.head-fi.org/t/729693/the-voodoo-less-cable-thread-reasonable-cable-vendors-and-reviews


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> That 'thing' you linked is not exactly a cable but an active component. Maybe that guy got it right, dont know. Dont care much either. Glad you enjoy your cables but after all the experiments, I doubt I'll ever buy a cable for SQ reasons again. If you want to continue the cable discussion, this should be a much better thread http://www.head-fi.org/t/729693/the-voodoo-less-cable-thread-reasonable-cable-vendors-and-reviews


 

 Yeah -I've heard and read all those 'voodoo' arguments over the decades - got to trust my ears -and they say Wow! Back to the Gustard U12 discussion.  Had put that link as these cables are dirt cheap for their SQ (and have free 30 day trail), IMO.  I'll start a separate thread for the AT's.  Like I did with this one, first mentioned on the Lyr tube rolling thread
  
 Sorry of the sidetrack.


----------



## lieberung

Finally I was going to test i2s on my Audio-GD Master 7 after my last failed attempt with the Audiobyte Hydra Z. Reading here of past experiences that The Gustard U12 often was delivered configured with the wrong voltage so I openied it up and checked before plugging it in: 

  
 Hmm, the voltage is set to 125. I better set it to 250 since that closest to my mains at 230. 
 Installed the drivers, plugged the mains in, and then the USB cable. "BUZZZZZZ", what the hell?? "POP!"
 And thats it. Dead!
 Opened it up, and behold: 

  
  
 Damn amateur! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Yeah, its me Im talking about...


----------



## Hun7er

What a fail sorry !!!
  
 I listen it for a couple of hours. It delivers fluid, smooth and full sounding. Drawbacks are reducing the volume, dynamic and emphasis on the bass.
 I want to test an Sotm DX USB or an Yellowtec PUC2 Lite.


----------



## prot

lieberung said:
			
		

> Opened it up, and behold:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Now I'm glad I did not open mine. Those are very confusing markings.


----------



## prot

hun7er said:


> What a fail sorry !!!
> 
> I listen it for a couple of hours. It delivers fluid, smooth and full sounding. Drawbacks are reducing the volume, dynamic and emphasis on the bass.
> I want to test an Sotm DX USB or an Yellowtec PUC2 Lite.




That sounds quite funny. I can confirm the reduced volume via coax but the rest does not sound right. My bass actually got more powerful with the gustard. Maybe there is something to those burnin stories... at least give it a chance and let it run for 24h or so. 

If you test that PUC thing pls post some impressions. According to some it should be the best usb-spdif converter ever.


----------



## Hun7er

I wrote emphasis on the bass


----------



## prot

hun7er said:


> I wrote emphasis on the bass



You surely did


----------



## rb2013

lieberung said:


> Finally I was going to test i2s on my Audio-GD Master 7 after my last failed attempt with the Audiobyte Hydra Z. Reading here of past experiences that The Gustard U12 often was delivered configured with the wrong voltage so I openied it up and checked before plugging it in:
> 
> 
> Hmm, the voltage is set to 125. I better set it to 250 since that closest to my mains at 230.
> ...


 

 Sorry to hear that - check the fuse - it only may have blown.


----------



## lieberung

rb2013 said:


> Sorry to hear that - check the fuse - it only may have blown.



Thanks, do you know where the fuse sits?


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> That is a nice & very reasonable ebay shop, good to know.
> 
> My plan was to use one of those GB mboards who can disable Usb power. A straighforward and (more or less) free solution. But looks like I also need a dualhead Usb cable and a battery. Which means extra cabling, extra effort and about $100 ... doesnt sound as good anymore.
> 
> ...


 
 You also can use a Elfidelity USB card, you can power it on internal connector on card, or external on the bracket.
 It's a very cheap and good solution!
  
 Thanks for the link, seems a very nice cable!


----------



## preproman

The damn driver all of a sudden will not install (Windows 8.1)  Was there something that needs to be done before hand?


----------



## hgpsemaj

Please ensure connect both U12 and DAC to your computer simultaneously before you download the driver. And also, ensure the USB cables are capable to carry out the job.


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> You also can use a Elfidelity USB card, you can power it on internal connector on card, or external on the bracket.
> It's a very cheap and good solution!
> 
> Thanks for the link, seems a very nice cable!



The idea was to get rid of that Usb power completely. But since that's not possible, the elfidelity card looks like a very reasonable alternative, thx. 
And about that shinny Usb cable, please note that I did not test it ... only posted the link based on price & looks. Good luck if you wanna test it.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> After rolling through a bunch of USB interfaces including 3 different John Kenny's, M2Tech Highface and Evo, Audiophilleo 2, Musiland 02 and Musiland USB 3.0 USD. I settled on the Musiland USB 3.0 as the best sounding. Made better with a Aqvox linear power supply. I've been running this for over a year and really happy. But heard about this unit and just ordered one, wanted to see if anyone has tried it.
> 
> Looks promising:
> 
> *Sealing Torodial Transformer*, ....





>


 
  
 Hi and i have also one myself not yet installed and i have also a new win 8.1. pc ... are there any driver issues ?
  
 By the way when i see a toroidal transformer feeding a digital circuit i would ask why not use a EI type ?
 Usually EI type provide better isolation from mains noise that for digital circuits is critical much more than for analog ones.
 Thanks and regards, gino


----------



## hgpsemaj

I'm proud to be one of the U12 owner,
  

  
 So far, I've not carried out any modification for my U12.
 Gustard/Taobao claims the power from the USB is only for control its switching on/off the U12, so I wouldn't bother to mod the USB power at this stage. The most likely modification I'm considering is to replace the clock. Well....may be 0.01ppm is the reason.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> I'm proud to be one of the U12 owner,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, we know U12 is using USB-power for switching on/off the U12 only, but usb-power still does interfere with usb-signal since it's
 high-frequency contents interfere within usb-cable. Clean 5V battery power would be best.
  
 Replacing TCXO with OCXO will be a hell of a job to implement, with a high quality external powersupply (which is VERY important) which WILL receive lots of emi/rfi (which we DON'T want). I wouldn't be too surprised if SQ even degrades with that kind of mod,,,,


----------



## hgpsemaj

Hello Abartels,
  
 Thank you for your information and PM today.
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## rb2013

lieberung said:


> Thanks, do you know where the fuse sits?


 

 Yes - it's under a little plastic cap behind the transformer.  I'll see if I can locate a picture.
  


 It's under the cap labeled BLX-A


----------



## rb2013

hun7er said:


> What a fail sorry !!!
> 
> I listen it for a couple of hours. It delivers fluid, smooth and full sounding. Drawbacks are reducing the volume, dynamic and emphasis on the bass.
> I want to test an Sotm DX USB or an Yellowtec PUC2 Lite.


 

 You might want to try Chodi's WaveIO ASIO driver - I like it better.  Also give KS and ASIO a try and play a bit with the buffer settings.  They both sound different - on one system I prefer the KS and the other WaveIO ASIO.  These are easy and reversible tweeks - worth a try.
  
 Did we ever get a post that compares the Audio-gd DI-2014 to the Gustard U12?
  
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DI2014/DI2014EN.htm


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and i have also one myself not yet installed and i have also a new win 8.1. pc ... are there any driver issues ?
> 
> By the way when i see a toroidal transformer feeding a digital circuit i would ask why not use a EI type ?
> Usually EI type provide better isolation from mains noise that for digital circuits is critical much more than for analog ones.
> Thanks and regards, gino


 

 No drivers issues yet - but can be a bit tricky to install (remove all previous ASIO installs helps)
  
 You are dead on about the EI vs toroidal for power line nose suppression. My Bada uses the an R-core for the preamp section for this reason - and separate massive dual toroidals to feed the output devices (they can deliver greater current on demand)
  

  
 PS Just noticed Audio-gd offers an R-core trans upgrade for their DI2014 - got to love that company!


> R core replace the cycloidal core ,cost +USD10.


----------



## lieberung

rb2013 said:


> Yes - it's under a little plastic cap behind the transformer.  I'll see if I can locate a picture.
> 
> 
> 
> It's under the cap labeled BLX-A


 
 Yeah, thanksI see it

 Seems like its 230V 0,5 Ampere. Hope its as easy as switching the fuse. Waiting for an answer from the seller thats in dialogue with the factory.


----------



## rb2013

lieberung said:


> Yeah, thanksI see it
> 
> Seems like its 230V 0,5 Ampere. Hope its as easy as switching the fuse. Waiting for an answer from the seller thats in dialogue with the factory.


 

 Your transformer has a different number then mine.  Do you mine posting a pic of the whole thing. Mine are 9V .83Amp marked T0015-2015  - yours looks like a 7V 1amp marked T2057-0015.  I wonder if there was a design change at some point?
  
 Maybe a pic of the whole board. - Thanks!


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> You might want to try Chodi's WaveIO ASIO driver - I like it better.  Also give KS and ASIO a try and play a bit with the buffer settings.  They both sound different - on one system I prefer the KS and the other WaveIO ASIO.  These are easy and reversible tweeks - worth a try.
> 
> Did we ever get a post that compares the Audio-gd DI-2014 to the Gustard U12?
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DI2014/DI2014EN.htm


 
 You did, but it is buried a few dozens of pages back


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> You did, but it is buried a few dozens of pages back


 

 Thanks - I'll find it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Page 36 post #535
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/525


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> Thanks - I'll find it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yep.
 I might want to add that overtime I've really grown on the U12 sound. At least until, I had to send it back for replacement 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I am currently waiting for the Gustard X12 to arrive as my new DAC, which will hopefully stay for some time. The U12 replacement should arrive a few days after it.
 So a nice Gustard stack with the SA31SE and HE-560 is to hopefully keep me satisfied for some time


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Yep.
> I might want to add that overtime I've really grown on the U12 sound. At least until, I had to send it back for replacement
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Do you have the Gungnir?  Did you have problems with it - or was that someone else?  Anyway - that'll be an awesome stack!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Just a FYI another excellent review is on page 38 post #568 - for those new to the thread
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/555


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> Do you have the Gungnir?  Did you have problems with it - or was that someone else?  Anyway - that'll be an awesome stack!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Sorry, the turnaround of my gear can be pretty fast at times 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I did have the Gungnir for like 2 weeks. There weren't any technical problems with it but in the end I've realized it does not have the sound I am after. I still think it is a very good DAC and it does many things right. Its signature just wasn't as much up my alley as I hoped


----------



## stuartmc

conquerator2 said:


> Yep.
> I might want to add that overtime I've really grown on the U12 sound. At least until, I had to send it back for replacement
> 
> 
> ...


 
 This should tickle your ears very nicely.  We will be running the same setup except that I have the H10 instead of the SA31SE.  The latter is an amp I would really like to listen to and make a direct comparison to the H10.  I have a lot of respect for the Audio_gd sound. I'm really shocked by how good the U12 sounds with Tidal Hifi playing on my tablet.  When I compare the same tracks on CD playing through my Rega Apollo-R, it is very very close.  When I switch back and forth with the DAC input button, I have to be very attentive to tell the difference at all.


----------



## Hun7er

rb2013 said:


> You might want to try Chodi's WaveIO ASIO driver - I like it better.  Also give KS and ASIO a try and play a bit with the buffer settings.  They both sound different - on one system I prefer the KS and the other WaveIO ASIO.  These are easy and reversible tweeks - worth a try.
> 
> Did we ever get a post that compares the Audio-gd DI-2014 to the Gustard U12?
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DI2014/DI2014EN.htm


 
  
 Hi,
  
 Where can I download this driver ?
  
 Regards


----------



## prot

hun7er said:


> Hi,
> 
> Where can I download this driver ?
> 
> Regards



The link was posted a few times in this thread .. just search "chodi"


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> No drivers issues yet - but can be a bit tricky to install (remove all previous ASIO installs helps)
> 
> You are dead on about the EI vs toroidal for power line nose suppression. My Bada uses the an R-core for the preamp section for this reason - and separate massive dual toroidals to feed the output devices (they can deliver greater current on demand)
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks for the very interesting advice.
 I have made* a very simple test with a line preamp prototype powered first by a toroidal and then by a EI and any other thing unchanged in the circuit.*
 Switching on the lights of the room sent a loud pop in the speakers with the toroidal and much much less with the EI.  
 I guess this is the evidence of better isolation from mains spikes and so on with the EI type.
 But i see toroidals everywhere ... so maybe i am wrong.
  
 Moreover* i am not so sure that a well executed external PS would be so detrimental for the unit sound.*
 The place left empty by taking out the transformer could be filled with additional caps and thus creating a big filter and reservoir.
 The umbilical from the external transformer to the unit could be shielded to avoid any antenna effect. 
 Have i said that i do not like toroidal with digital ?
 Thanks again.   Kind regards, gino
  
 P.S. of course i have both the old U10 and U12 and like them quite a lot.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks for the very interesting advice.
> I have made* a very simple test with a line preamp prototype powered first by a toroidal and then by a EI and any other thing unchanged in the circuit.*
> Switching on the lights of the room sent a loud pop in the speakers with the toroidal and much much less with the EI.
> I guess this is the evidence of better isolation from mains spikes and so on with the EI type.
> ...


 
 And external PS would be a pretty cool mod.
  
 How do you compare the U10 to the U12?


----------



## rb2013

hun7er said:


> Hi,
> 
> Where can I download this driver ?
> 
> Regards


 

 Here you go post #35 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/30
  
 Give it a try.  What OS are you running?  The U12 will get better with some run time - maybe the clocks need to settle in.  Give it 100 hrs of run time.


----------



## ginetto61

Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
  


> And external PS would be a pretty cool mod.
> 
> *How do you compare the U10 to the U12? *


 
  
 Hi yes i think that PS can make a difference.  Since long time one of the standard mod in cd player was better PS for the clock and the dac circuits (i think they have used even batteries to give low noise and isolation from mains).
  
 Regarding the comparison i dont hear big differences in my poorly resolving system with old Tannoy speakers. If i had to buy one i would buy the U12 of course.
 I can guess the U12 is the better unit.   Nowadays i am in the middle of some experiments and i am focusing different digital source solutions.
 Just for fun i have even tried a cheap chinese Android media player running Android 4.4 and uploaded Usb Audio Player Pro.
 It works with U12 very nicely and the sound is very convincing ... unbelievable.
 The media player cost around 100 USD (i intend to use as a AV streamer mostly).
 I have not been able to hear substantial differences between this media player driving the U12 and a much better pc running the U10.
 I read with the greatest interest the reviews here because good headphones based systems could be so much more revealing than an average stereo system.
 Headphones are like a stethoscope.
 I am experimenting for now.
 Thanks again, gino


----------



## hgpsemaj

I'm not using U12 for headphone, and my system is
  
 Computer(i.e PC.) ---> U12 ---> Cullen Stage 4 PS Audio DLIII ---> Thorens ITA2000 ---> HGP Ronda Speaker
                                                                                                               or
                                                                                                 McIntosh MC275 MK I
                                                                                                               or
                                                                                                   Marantz 9 reissue
  
 The additional of U12 has obviously improved the layer of the sound stage for my system. 
  
 I connected my DAC directly to my power amp (i.e. abandoned pre-amp.), it has raised the resolution to a much higher level. But, please ensure the output impedance of the DAC match with input impedance of the power amp.
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## ginetto61

hgpsemaj said:


> I'm not using U12 for headphone, and my system is
> 
> Computer(i.e PC.) ---> U12 ---> Cullen Stage 4 PS Audio DLIII ---> Thorens ITA2000 ---> HGP Ronda Speaker
> or
> ...


 
  
 Hi just to say that IMHO this is the most telling evidence of digital done rightly.
 The bad digital is hopelessly  "flat", bidimensional ...
 Thanks for the advice.
 Kind regards, gino


----------



## Arnotts

ginetto61 said:


> Hi just to say that IMHO this is the most telling evidence of digital done rightly.
> The bad digital is hopelessly  "flat", bidimensional ...
> Thanks for the advice.
> Kind regards, gino


 
 I haven't received my U12 yet, but from my experience I agree with you.
  
 I was comparing the sound quality of my LCD-X's from my various amps and DACs, including the Xonar Essence STX sound card. The sound card is considered excellent value for money with excellent measurements and a very high quality DAC chip. The sound quality was excellent in tonality, but in terms of sound stage it was very bi-dimensional - no depth whatsoever, only width.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi yes i think that PS can make a difference.  Since long time one of the standard mod in cd player was better PS for the clock and the dac circuits (i think they have used even batteries to give low noise and isolation from mains).
> 
> Regarding the comparison i dont hear big differences in my poorly resolving system with old Tannoy speakers. If i had to buy one i would buy the U12 of course.
> I can guess the U12 is the better unit.   Nowadays i am in the middle of some experiments and i am focusing different digital source solutions.
> ...


 

 Thanks Gino!  A while ago, back when the Memory Player was all the rage - that playing music files off of a USB stick vs a spinning harddrive would give superior SQ.  I tried and did notice a bit of a difference.  I have begun building new SOTA music servers build on SSD only drives - fanless as well.  I need massive storage capacity so the SSD route is the only viable solution right now ( I started a new thread for that project).
  
 Good luck on your experiments.


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Replacing TCXO with OCXO will be a hell of a job to implement, with a high quality external powersupply (which is VERY important) which WILL receive lots of emi/rfi (which we DON'T want). I wouldn't be too surprised if SQ even degrades with that kind of mod,,,,


 
  
 If replacing TCXO with OCXO is not a simple straight away job, we might consider replacing U12' TCXO with Rubidium clock, it is because rubidium only got 0.00001ppm.
 I've gather some informations as follows:
  
 Rubidium atomic clock dedicated power supply board cost around RMB100 each (i.e. excluding postage.),
  

  
  
 The upper deck is the rubidium clock; and the lower deck is the dedicated power supply board,
  

  
 I've seen second hand rubidium clock is available on ebay and cost around US$215 each (i.e. excluding postage.).
  
 With kind regards,


----------



## ginetto61

arnotts said:


> I haven't received my U12 yet, but from my experience I agree with you.
> 
> I was comparing the sound quality of my LCD-X's from my various amps and DACs, including* the Xonar Essence STX sound card*.
> The sound card is considered excellent value for money with excellent measurements and a very high quality DAC chip.
> The sound quality was excellent in tonality, but in terms of sound stage it was very bi-dimensional - no depth whatsoever, only width.


 
  
 Hi as i assume you have another dac to use with the U12 you could also try *the Xonar Essence STX sound card *spdif out.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Maybe the problem was in the output stage.  
 I would like to try a PCI card just to test it as a I/O digital interface.  The PCI bus can give the lowest latency for what this counts of course. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But i read very mixed opinions even on popular ones.
 Most of audiophiles state the professionals do not have ears.  Professionals state that audiophiles do not have brain. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I do not know who to trust seriously.
 Thanks again, gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Most of audiophiles state the professionals do not have ears.  Professionals state that audiophiles do not have brain.


 
 One not much good without the other


----------



## prot

hgpsemaj said:


> If replacing TCXO with OCXO is not a simple straight away job, we might consider replacing U12' TCXO with Rubidium clock, it is because rubidium only got 0.00001ppm.
> I've gather some informations as follows:
> 
> Rubidium atomic clock dedicated power supply board cost around RMB100 each (i.e. excluding postage.),
> ...




Good in theory but even more complicated and costly than OCXOs. Those rubidium standard devices only provide one 10mhz clock. You'll have to generate the signal for the 3x gustard clocks from that. Maybe use something like http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/mutec_mc3plus_e.html
Or just use an Usb reclocker with clock input from the rubidium device .. and no gustard. 
Or a network player like Soundaware which accepts external clocks. Or ... 
All expensive & complex solutions and no guaranteed gains


----------



## abartels

lieberung said:


> Thanks, do you know where the fuse sits?


 
 Sorry guys, but i HAVE to say this:
  
 Please read ALL posts before asking your question, most questions have been answered in previous posts.
  
 @Lieberung: I even "photoshopped" a picture to point at the fuse,,,,,, see http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/645#post_11318547
  
 Have fun


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> If replacing TCXO with OCXO is not a simple straight away job, we might consider replacing U12' TCXO with Rubidium clock, it is because rubidium only got 0.00001ppm.
> I've gather some informations as follows:
> 
> Rubidium atomic clock dedicated power supply board cost around RMB100 each (i.e. excluding postage.),
> ...


 
 Would be nice, but all Rubidium clocks at ebay are of very low frequencies, so NOT the ones we need


----------



## lieberung

abartels said:


> Sorry guys, but i HAVE to say this:
> 
> Please read ALL posts before asking your question, most questions have been answered in previous posts.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks! I have tried switching the fuse but still would not start. The seller on Ebay is very understanding and has offered me a new unit if I return this one, so I guess Ill take that offer.


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> Would be nice, but all Rubidium clocks at ebay are of very low frequencies, so NOT the ones we need



This thing may provide the needed freqs ... still way too expensive


----------



## ginetto61

Hi just a question
 Could *a battery based power supply *give any kind of improvement to the Gustard U12 performance ?
 I mean a 12V SLA battery for instance
 A battery would provide complete isolation from mains and very low noise.
 Anyone knows how much this unit consumes ?
 Thanks a lot, gino


----------



## hgpsemaj

I contacted 'Jay's Audio/Taobao' in respect of rubidium word clock today. In his (i.e. c-jacky.) reply, both of the parts of  45.1584Mhz and 49.1520Mhz are running out. However, ready-made rubidium word clock are available.
  

  
  
  
 The quotation is RMB4,000. (i.e. excluding postage.)
  
 Surely, it is not my cup of tea, and I still prefer DIY.


----------



## hgpsemaj

ginetto61 said:


> Hi just a question
> Could *a battery based power supply *give any kind of improvement to the Gustard U12 performance ?
> I mean a 12V SLA battery for instance
> A battery would provide complete isolation from mains and very low noise.
> ...


 
  
 I used to run my DEXA word clock by rechargeable SLA battery on my Meridian CD transport, and, I'm afraid the result was not that desirable. First of all, I'm sure DEXA word clock should consume less power than U12, and I needed to recharge my battery every week at that time. Secondly, unless you use 'Lithium-based Batteries', otherwise the performance would start dropping when you start using the battery.
  
 If I'm wrong, please put me right.
  
 With kind regards,


----------



## ginetto61

Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice
 Still* i do not love that toroidal transformer *... toroidals have a wide bandwidth ... they let every noise in the mains go through to the circuits.
 Maybe even some high quality SMPS would be better (just a guess this one of course).
 Thanks again, gino


----------



## hgpsemaj

I've encountered couple of external power supplies, when I opened it up, surprise..surprise...it just consists of 1 x transformer; 1 x capacitor; 1 x regulator and 1 x diode, of course is wrapped up by a shiny metal work. And, they price it well over US$1,500.
 Well... that is the reason I always prefer DIY, unless go for those flagship items.
  
 Look and beware, one of those uncompromised design;


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice
> Still* i do not love that toroidal transformer *... toroidals have a wide bandwidth ... they let every noise in the mains go through to the circuits.
> Maybe even some high quality SMPS would be better (just a guess this one of course).
> Thanks again, gino


 

 Another solution could be an external PS filter - better PS cable and Aqvox linear regulated filtered USB PS. The Aqvox would be only for switching purposes, as it would feed current all the time, one would have to be careful to be sure it was unplugged before disengaging any of the signal cords (as the protection circuit would not be engaged otherwise).
  
 All reversible of course. 
  
 I've had good success with Richard Gray Pro 400 and the Shunyata Venom PC.  Have not tried the Aqvox - as I had sold them when I bought the U12s and sold my Musiland USB 3.0's


----------



## ginetto61

Hi i guess this is a for an analog preamp or similar
 Mine is only a feeling but i think that analog is less picky regarding power supply quality.
 Digital is very very delicate power supply wise ... both clock and dac circuits.
*Almost all the modifications once very popular for cd players were addressing the power supply of the digital section ... almost all.*
 Along with a better quartz of course.
 An extremely clean and steady voltage is mandatory for digital from what i understand.
 I saw even batteries used for this.
  
 I have some other very cheap usb to spdif converters using only power from usb.
 I have bought a lithium battery pack to be used with usb powered devices.
*It is a 15Ah pack*.  So it should last for some days ... but i will see. And listen of course.
 I am very curious to listen for any improvement in sound using the battery pack.
 I am not expecting great performance from these very cheap converters.
 Still i will never know until i try.
 Thanks again for the very interesting advice.
 Kind regards, gino


----------



## prot

hgpsemaj said:


> I contacted 'Jay's Audio/Taobao' in respect of rubidium word clock today. In his (i.e. c-jacky.) reply, both of the parts of  45.1584Mhz and 49.1520Mhz are running out. However, ready-made rubidium word clock are available.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think $650 is a very good price for such a device ... pretty hard to beat even when you DIY. The rubidium standard itself costs $2-300, than you need a case, various cables & connectors, highend power source and a highend circuit to generate the two clocks and keep the rubidium precision. $350 for all that is pretty reasonable ... even cheap I would say. 

Anyway, this is a much too expensive mod for me. But I'm very curious to hear about the improvements it *may* bring.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi i guess this is a for an analog preamp or similar
> Mine is only a feeling but i think that analog is less picky regarding power supply quality.
> Digital is very very delicate power supply wise ... both clock and dac circuits.
> *Almost all the modifications once very popular for cd players were addressing the power supply of the digital section ... almost all.*
> ...


 

 Well the Richard Gray acts as a power stabilizer and storage system, it also reduces power system ground interference.  It's improved every DAC I've tried it with (around a half dozen so far).  Battery powered pre-amps are not new -especially phono pre-amps.  I have owned a few.  They are very pure, but seem to lack dynamics.  Have not seen many battery powered DACs or CD players though.
  
 I have had battery powered USB devices before - as I posted on page 2 of this thread:


> Originally Posted by *rb2013*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
On the Richard Gray Quote:


> *Parallel Power Delivery*​ ​ Patented parallel iron-core inductor technology is proven (after 1 million installations and counting) to provide instant current –on–demand to power efficiently today’s High Performance-Current hungry AV components and electronic systems.​​ ​ Stabilizes AC Power​​ Enhances AV performance​​ Improves start up characteristics and Inrush response​​ Provides additional Balanced AC Surge protection.​


 
 I would be interested in adding additional power filtering beyond the 400Pro.
  
 As I mentioned I used the Aqvox linear PS with my Musiland 3.0's, it  does a very good of filtering: http://www.aqvox.de/usb-power_en.html


> 100mHz digital scope, one vertical square are *10mV - this shows 50 - 60mV *
> *A typical power supply of notebook PC*


 


> *Sources of disturbances (ripple & noise) inside a computer:*
> 
> 1. Backlight of computer monitors: The necessary high voltage of approx. 900 V for LCD/TFT monitors is generated by inverters which produce ripple and noise.
> 
> ...


 
  


> 100mHz digital scope, one vertical square is *10mV - this shows 40 - 50mV*
> * *


 


> *Interference voltage and noise of USB power from a computer.
> Even the use of a battery-powered notebook brings little help.*
> A typical picture of 5 Volt USB power with 40 mV ripple & noise from a desktop PC without running access of the hard disk.


 
  
 Cheers!


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Another solution could be an external PS filter - better PS cable and Aqvox linear regulated filtered USB PS. The Aqvox would be only for switching purposes, as it would feed current all the time, one would have to be careful to be sure it was unplugged before disengaging any of the signal cords (as the protection circuit would not be engaged otherwise).
> 
> All reversible of course.
> 
> I've had good success with Richard Gray Pro 400 and the Shunyata Venom PC.  Have not tried the Aqvox - as I had sold them when I bought the U12s and sold my Musiland USB 3.0's


 
 I'm using a Belkin powerflter PF50 (european model), it's great, sadly Belkin doesn't produce them anymore


----------



## MINORISUKE

Can anybody tell whether it is possible to change latency with XMOS USB Audio driver (2.23.0) which comes with U12?
 Copying TSUBAudioCpl.exe from WaveIO setup seems not to function.
 For JPLAY, I need KS, which means I should stick to XMOS driver.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> I'm using a Belkin powerflter PF50 (european model), it's great, sadly Belkin doesn't produce them anymore


 

 Too bad they don't make them anymore.  Does it help?
  
 I use one of these APC® Back-UPS® BN600G for my PC - but didn't seem to help - in fact was a tiny step backward on the Gustard


----------



## abartels

ginetto61 said:


> Hi i guess this is a for an analog preamp or similar
> Mine is only a feeling but i think that analog is less picky regarding power supply quality.
> Digital is very very delicate power supply wise ... both clock and dac circuits.
> *Almost all the modifications once very popular for cd players were addressing the power supply of the digital section ... almost all.*
> ...


 
  
 Sorry for saying this Ginetto61, but it seems to me you haven't any clue about how analogue / digital stages perform on poor psu's.
 A well developed and build linear psu will ALWAYS be the BASE of good analogue or digital audio equipment.
  
 My 30yo diy mosfet class-A pré-amp (which i have build myself) has 5 seperate transformers and and all seperated regulaterstages with pi-filters.
 I didn't develop that psu for fun, it's absolutely needed when you want the best SQ.
  
 My first developed dac, build on CS4398, had all seperate powerstages, but sadly only one toroidial transformer with seperate windings.
 Seperate transformers would take this dac to a much higher level, but there wasn't any room left in housing.
  
 Also my diy mosfet class-A poweramp uses 2x 1000VA toroidal transformers with 160.000 uF Rifa / Roederstein caps, it's really not for fun that one build
 a good psu for analogue equipment. It's a necessity when you want to deliver the best SQ.
  
 Sorry, but i had to comment on this,,,,, 
  
 It all has to do with how much one will invest in a product.
  
 Like our Gustard U12, it's a very nice developed and build DDC which delivers outstanding SQ for the buck, and one can modify it with simple tools.
 But, buying clocks and other stuff which costs 5 times as much as the U12 is as buying a VW Golf, strip it down and put a Porsche engine in it............
  
 Just my 5 cents,


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> Can anybody tell whether it is possible to change latency with XMOS USB Audio driver (2.23.0) which comes with U12?
> Copying TSUBAudioCpl.exe from WaveIO setup seems not to function.
> For JPLAY, I need KS, which means I should stick to XMOS driver.


 

 I use Jplay and can use either KS or WaveI/O ASIO.  Just go the 'Playing Via:' at the top and switch - then I do the same in  Foobar.
  
 You can change latency in the TUSB Audio Control panel under: 'USB Streaming Mode' - it has a range of settings.  I'm using 'Safe' which is the second to highest latency.  I really don't care if I have a tiny delay in changing tracks of playlists - it's almost imperceptible.  But there are several low latency settings.  Low latency is especially important in Proaudio mixing software and hardware - not so much for audiophile playback.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Too bad they don't make them anymore.  Does it help?
> 
> I use one of these APC® Back-UPS® BN600G for my PC - but didn't seem to help - in fact was a tiny step backward on the Gustard


 
 Since i am a computer guy, we sell APC's to our customers. APC's have A LOT of high frequency sh.t in them, it's a sort of smps which we don't want in audio equipment.
  
 The Belkin Pure AV is the best buck i ever spend, cost me about $500. It really does a very good job. I don't know the US models, they had a build-in battery.
 The Brand "Monster" has some good models which aren't that expensive like IsoTek and others.
  
 Picture of Belkin PF50


----------



## MINORISUKE

Thank you for your suggestion.  I am testing JPALY 6 beta, and setting latency to minimum is suggested in some cases.  That is why I wanted to know how I could do this.
  
 Quote:


rb2013 said:


> I use Jplay and can use either KS or WaveI/O ASIO.  Just go the 'Playing Via:' at the top and switch - then I do the same in  Foobar.


----------



## abartels

minorisuke said:


>


 
 i am using it with JPlay Beta 6 also, 0.01s 700Hz, dualpc, audiopc in core, controlpc with gui. I don't remeber exactly how i configured the chodi driver, bnut it wasn't the lowest latency i configured. Still sounds amazing


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Since i am a computer guy, we sell APC's to our customers. APC's have A LOT of high frequency sh.t in them, it's a sort of smps which we don't want in audio equipment.
> 
> The Belkin Pure AV is the best buck i ever spend, cost me about $500. It really does a very good job. I don't know the US models, they had a build-in battery.
> The Brand "Monster" has some good models which aren't that expensive like IsoTek and others.
> ...


 

 I use the APC as a UBS for the PC - we get occasional power outages here - so it just keeps the PC from crashing.  I have one on each of my 6 PCs.
  
 I had a Monster Pro 2500 and use a Monster 1700 between the PC and the APC UBS.  They're pretty good.
  
 For $500 I'd probably go for a Furutech or Shunyata.
  
 Been think of stepping up to something sota down the road - and use it for the Gustard and my DAC between them and the RG 400Pro - a Audience Adept AR2 Teflon caps. http://www.audience-av.com/conditioners/


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Sorry, but i had to comment on this,,,,,
> 
> It all has to do with how much one will invest in a product.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I can not agree more.
  
 Regards,


----------



## MINORISUKE

abartels said:


> i am using it with JPlay Beta 6 also, 0.01s 700Hz, dualpc, audiopc in core, controlpc with gui. I don't remeber exactly how i configured the chodi driver, bnut it wasn't the lowest latency i configured. Still sounds amazing


 

 Thank you for your comment.  I am also testing JPLAY 6 beta 7a in dual PC mode like you.  With XMOS USB Audio driver 2.23.0, I can set up to 170Hz/0.01sec.  350Hz/0.01sec gave sound just for a few seconds.
 Maybe I should switch to WaveIO ASIO.


----------



## rb2013

Latency is sometime misunderstood by folks.  It relates to the buffering used on the audio stream.  Large buffers are good in that they provide a reservoir of digital data for the CPU to process, this held in memory.  So if their is an interruption in the data flow for whatever reason the CPU processing of the bitstream will be unaffected.  As long as the buffer is large enough to continue feeding the CPU uninterpreted.  The issue with large buffers is the FIFO processing of the bitstream - with large buffers this can lead to lag in time between acting on the stream and it's processed effect - this is referred to as 'latency'.
  
 For musicians using a MIDI keyboard - or a sound engineer altering a mix in real time - this latency is a nightmare.   Think if your car had a latency in the steering and brakes - if large it would make safe driving very difficult. 
  
 For audiophiles who are just playing back a recorded bit stream - it's not such a big issue.  A bigger issue would be bit dropouts or interruptions.  You might experience a slight delay in changing a setting (like KS to ASIO, or ASIO to KS) or a sound track. 
  
 Here's a good link to explain in greater detail
  
 http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/articles/pcmusician.htm


----------



## ginetto61

abartels said:


> Sorry for saying this Ginetto61, but it seems to me you haven't any clue about how analogue / digital stages perform on poor psu's.
> A well developed and build linear psu will ALWAYS be the BASE of good analogue or digital audio equipment.
> 
> My 30yo diy mosfet class-A pré-amp (which i have build myself) has 5 seperate transformers and and all seperated regulaterstages with pi-filters.
> ...


 
  
 Hi and i see your points and i agree of course.  Also with analog the PS quality is very important.
 But still i think much more with digital. I feel that digital is more delicate. The voltage fed to the clock and dac circuits must be perfect. No noise, no spikes. Nothing.
 Because most analog circuits have some level of rejection of power supply noise.  
 Unless they are without feedback i think.
 In digital the quartz does not have a PSRR.  You feed it badly, it will work badly.
 A high precision quartz with a bad PS is a waste. 
 The only real problem (recharge cycles aside) i found with batteries is the impedance of the batteries.  
 A good quality and high uF cap close to the circuit can cure this nicely.
 The lack of dynamics i think it is due to this impedance not low enough as it should be.
 But maybe i am wrong but this is an issue when the circuit draws current in a variable way.
 I guess that a USB to SPDIF converter will draw a constant current (maybe i am wrong).
 So the not very low impedance could be a lesser issue. 
 But i have to listen.  
 But going back to the U12 i would prefer, for instance, a EI type transformer with separated primary and secondary windings to be put outside the box and connected with a shielded umbilical to the U12.
 Honestly i am saying this not because i am an expert but because i see the same solutions used by top designers like those in Audio Note
 You do not see toroidals in AN dacs for instance
  

  
  
  
  
 There is also the issue of the transformer mounted on the same pcb of the circuit (vibes) and some magnetic field from the transformer itself.

  
 I wonder if the secondaries are wired in series or parallel.
 I mean if a 9-0-9 VAC or a 0-9 VAC are needed.
 I will open it in the weekend ... just to peep below the pcb.
 Thanks again, gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and i see your points and i agree of course.  Also with analog the PS quality is very important.
> But still i think much more with digital. I feel that digital is more delicate. The voltage fed to the clock and dac circuits must be perfect. No noise, no spikes. Nothing.
> Because most analog circuits have some level of rejection of power supply noise.
> Unless they are without feedback i think.
> ...


 

 On the pictures someone recently posted showed a different transformer that was marked 7v - have you cracked open your case?  I'm wondering which one you have.
  
 I've heavily shielded my transformer top and sides with the 3M EMI shielding.  Didn't really notice difference.
  
 I'm happy to see that the manufacturer on my DAC mod project did use separate r-core transformers as stock
 But the PS filtering did need a lot of extra work - and it paid off very well.   I upgraded all the Elna's to Simlic II's, added a Mundorf dual M'lytic to replace some el-cheapo caps, replaced an important resistor with a Hammond Choke, and pretty much recaped all the filter caps with Nichicon Fine Golds, etc...and now with Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil coupling caps this baby is sounding amazing!  Rivaling my $7K APL DAC.


----------



## ginetto61

> *Originally Posted by rb2013 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> *
> *On the pictures someone recently posted showed a different transformer that was marked 7v - have you cracked open your case?  I'm wondering which one you have.*
> 
> ...


----------



## abartels

minorisuke said:


> Thank you for your comment.  I am also testing JPLAY 6 beta 7a in dual PC mode like you.  With XMOS USB Audio driver 2.23.0, I can set up to 170Hz/0.01sec.  350Hz/0.01sec gave sound just for a few seconds.
> Maybe I should switch to WaveIO ASIO.


 
  
 I installed the chodi driver and use it within JPlay with KS. No problems at all


----------



## MINORISUKE

abartels said:


> I installed the chodi driver and use it within JPlay with KS. No problems at all


 
  
 The driver installation was successful and KS in Server Core is also working.  In the previous post, as somebody mentioned that KS did not work in Server Core, I thought it would be useless for me to install this driver.
 WaveIO seems to have deleted the download link of their driver.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


>


 
  
 Yes post pic of your transformer if you can.
  
 Here is a link to my 'Lite DAC60 - PCM1704 R2R tubed DAC Mod Project'  Lot's of good info on R2R vs S-D DACs.  No this was a DIY project from a stock unit.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
  
 The point is I agree with you on the importance of a clean PSU.
  
 I also posted good info on the ElFidelity PCI-E, SATA, and CPU fan filterson my PC server thread:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/754654/new-pc-music-server-build-project-all-ssd-no-fans


----------



## ginetto61

> *Originally Posted by rb2013 /img/forum/go_quote.gif*
> 
> *Yes post pic of your transformer if you can.*
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


>


 

 Any suggestions you may have on mods for the U12 are appreciated. 
  
 As for the tube vs SS output on DACs - it comes down to the right tubes.  My favorite is the 6922 type.  After rolling these for 20 yrs - I have a pretty good idea of the best vintage available.  The finest like the early 60's Siemens CCa gray's or the 6N23P '75 Voskhods - are as solid, extended as any SS DAC I have heard.  What they add is a rich natural tone, better dynamics and a more holographic sound stage.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## prot

zoom25 said:


> Sweet, let me know how it turns out. My DAC has AES input, so I can use either AES to AES from U12 to DAC, or coax to AES from U12 to DAC.




This is somewhat unexpected but the AES/XLR cable did not make any difference. Same volume level as Coax... somewhat quieter than direct USB to DAC. I'll just keep the AES cause it has very nice Neutrik connectors that sit very well into the sockets. 
And btw, looks like all Gustard outputs are active simultaneously.


----------



## Zoom25

prot said:


> This is somewhat unexpected but the AES/XLR cable did not make any difference. Same volume level as Coax... somewhat quieter than direct USB to DAC. I'll just keep the AES cause it has very nice Neutrik connectors that sit very well into the sockets.
> And btw, looks like all Gustard outputs are active simultaneously.




Thank you very much. This makes life much easier. I take it no difference in sound quality either?


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Yes post pic of your transformer if you can.


 
  
 Good morning !
 here the pic
  

  
 I would not mess with the unit after all.  Maybe *i would have preferred to see used a transformer of this type here*
  

  
  
 or this one here
  

  
  
  
 if i am not wrong* this types have primary and secondary windings separated. *
*Usually this **results in a better rejection **of mains noise ! this is fundamental with digital i suppose*
  
 But googling i see that toroidals are very fashionable these days ... actually the look really nice
 But they also sound nice ?
 They are instead the normal choice for power amps for instance.
 Almost no one uses big and heavy EI transformer these days.
 Personally i like more EI trasformer also for amps. It seems that they usually give a better bass ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Regarding tubes i guess you are right.
 For line stages i have a predilection for the *powerful tubes usually used as drivers for the output stages in many tube power amps*.
 For instance nobody cares of the *12bh7 *... for me this tube would be exceptional as line stage (even if no one is using it).
 I am sure as you say that tube selection is the 1st step and very fundamental
 i see almost everywhere ecc82 ... too weak tube for me.
 The 12bh7 (or similar) correctly used could give exceptional sound ... clean, powerful, transparent ... everything.
 One day maybe i will buy a kit from ebay adaptable to this wonderful tube.
  
 Thanks again and kind regards,  gino


----------



## prot

zoom25 said:


> Thank you very much. This makes life much easier. I take it no difference in sound quality either?




None that I could hear. Connected both a viablue coax and the sommercable/neutrik aes and I could easily switch from the DAC. 100% same. But of course YMMV


----------



## MINORISUKE

I own U12 and am satisfied with its performance.
 However, I found the following.  This model has RJ45 I2S output, which is easier to handle than LVDS of U12.
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1-c.w4004-9491014597.7.aI5USc&id=44130453324


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> I own U12 and am satisfied with its performance.
> However, I found the following.  This model has RJ45 I2S output, which is easier to handle than LVDS of U12.
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1-c.w4004-9491014597.7.aI5USc&id=44130453324


 

 Nice looking unit - I'm curious too


----------



## hgpsemaj

The USB interface (i.e. DI-2014.) of 'Audio gd' offers standard clock or upgraded TCXO.  And Mr Ho of 'Audio gd' just informed me, they can install OCXO to their DI-2014, but customer must supply and forward the OCXO to 'Audio gd'.
  
  
 P.S. I've confirmed with Gustard, and they would not provide the above mentioned service for U12.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Good morning !
> here the pic
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Gino!  You have the 9V transformer as well.  Same as my two.  I noticed the Melodious MX-U8 uses a better quality Talema transformer - at approx $175 USD I would love to try this one.
  

  
 PS If they ever start selling on Ebay for US delivery I'd buy one for sure


----------



## bavinck

Forgive my ignorance. I am looking seriously at getting a Gustard x12 with USB. What does the U12 do?


----------



## rb2013

bavinck said:


> Forgive my ignorance. I am looking seriously at getting a Gustard x12 with USB. What does the U12 do?


 

 It's a USB PC interface - so it takes the digital stream from your PC and converts it to a digital stream your DAC can accept


----------



## Arnotts

bavinck said:


> Forgive my ignorance. I am looking seriously at getting a Gustard x12 with USB. What does the U12 do?


 
 I haven't done a proper, side-by-side comparison between the X12 with USB vs the U12 connected to the X12 via I2S, but I think I prefer the USB input right to the X12.
  
 There was something I thought sounded slightly off with the sound from the U12 when paired with the X12 via I2S (I never tried other inputs/cables with it). Might have been the cheap HDMI cable that I used, but I've never used aftermarket cables before, so I don't know if I would be able to tell the difference or not.
  
 The U12 provides a fantastic improvement to my Matrix M-Stage combo, though . Got it connected via TOSLINK.


----------



## conquerator2

I should receive my X12/U12#2 later this week. Hopefully I'll be able to comment further


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Thanks Gino!  You have the 9V transformer as well.  Same as my two.
> I noticed the Melodious MX-U8 uses a better quality Talema transformer - at approx $175 USD I would love to try this one.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi and you are welcome !
 nice piece indeed. Maybe some reviews will show up soon. 
 Given the good amount of 2nd hand dacs around the converters are a very good option in my mind.
 Thanks again, gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and you are welcome !
> nice piece indeed. Maybe some reviews will show up soon.
> Given the good amount of 2nd hand dacs around the converters are a very good option in my mind.
> Thanks again, gino


 

 I like the fact there is lot's of room inside and a seperate board for the transformer.  Would be an easy mod to an RCore trannie.  Extra PS filtering - the beloved Murata transformers for the spdif.
  
 I wonder if the seller will ship to the US and if it has switchable voltage to 110


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> Thanks Gino!  You have the 9V transformer as well.  Same as my two.  I noticed the Melodious MX-U8 uses a better quality Talema transformer - at approx $175 USD I would love to try this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The internals look very similar to U12. I like the much prettier case but would miss the U12 display (my Dac doesnt have one). Hopefully someone tries the melodious soon, curious to hear about it. Wont expect big SQ diffs though .. if any.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> The internals look very similar to U12. I like the much prettier case but would miss the U12 display (my Dac doesnt have one). Hopefully someone tries the melodious soon, curious to hear about it. Wont expect big SQ diffs though .. if any.


 

 I see much better PS filtering - Wima caps  - better transformer.  Three clocks- in stead of two.  You never know


----------



## conquerator2

Componenents are only part of the story


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> I see much better PS filtering - Wima caps  - better transformer.  Three clocks- in stead of two.  You never know




All interesting diffs but may or may not be audible. My estimate is barely audible diffs, probably not enough to pass an a/b with eyes shut. But you are of course right, you never know until you hear it. 

What impressed my most was the design. If it had a display I would've ordered one just to try. I'm a sucker for nice components and the melodious will stack up perfectly with my minimax. We'll see. It still looks like a nice & relatively cheap temp cure for upgraditis 

P.S.
doesnt the U12 use 3 clocks too !? Two for audio freqs and one for the xmos itself.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> All interesting diffs but may or may not be audible. My estimate is barely audible diffs, probably not enough to pass an a/b with eyes shut. But you are of course right, you never know until you hear it.
> 
> What impressed my most was the design. If it had a display I would've ordered one just to try. I'm a sucker for nice components and the melodious will stack up perfectly with my minimax. We'll see. It still looks like a nice & relatively cheap temp cure for upgraditis
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah I like the design as well - I wonder if it would work with the WaveI/O ASIO drivers - like the U12. 
  
  
 Yes there are three - but the U12 only has two TCXO clocks - the third is off to the left is non Temperature Controlled - I believe:


----------



## conquerator2

Well, according to Kingwa the difference between a toroidal and an R-core in the DI [they now offer it at an extra as an option] or converters in general - 'The R core sound may slight improve the transparency but not much'.
 I have the regular toroidal one as that one wasn't available yet, but seems like I am in the clear. The DI needs no more transparency IMO.


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Well, according to Kingwa the difference between a toroidal and an R-core in the DI [they now offer it at an extra as an option] or converters in general - 'The R core sound may slight improve the transparency but not much'.
> I have the regular toroidal one as that one wasn't available yet, but seems like I am in the clear. The DI needs no more transparency IMO.


 

 It's great they offer that as a very low cost option - like $20 extra.  Pretty awesome company


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> It's great they offer that as a very low cost option - like $20 extra.  Pretty awesome company


 
 Yeah, except the units become 'outdated' pretty quickly. There's an update, revision or both every few months


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Yeah, except the units become 'outdated' pretty quickly. There's an update, revision or both every few months


 

 He's a perfectionist - and always pushing the envelope for better sound.  It doesn't make the older products sound different - just the newer better.
 But I understand it does effect resale value - best to buy his last iteration on the used market.


----------



## roman410

Gustard U12 vs DXIO PRO3A http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/54-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wauto-power-switch.html.
 In terms of tonality, both devices are very similar. I found different in presentation. Overall sound of Gustard is laid back compare to DXIO, it is like sitting in 30rd vs 10rd. Also music from DXIO is more transparent, cleaner and clearer, better instrument separation and what I like most: holographic presentation. I run my source of music  Squeezebox touch and DXIO on 5V battery power., which is very easy, due to fact  DXIO have external power socket. What I do not like on DXIO is ugly yellow enclosure compare to Gustard.


----------



## rb2013

roman410 said:


> Gustard U12 vs DXIO PRO3A http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/54-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wauto-power-switch.html.
> In terms of tonality, both devices are very similar. I found different in presentation. Overall sound of Gustard is laid back compare to DXIO, it is like sitting in 30rd vs 10rd. Also music from DXIO is more transparent, cleaner and clearer, better instrument separation and what I like most: holographic presentation. I run my source of music  Squeezebox touch and DXIO on 5V battery power., which is very easy, due to fact  DXIO have external power socket. What I do not like on DXIO is ugly yellow enclosure compare to Gustard.


 

 Thanks!  So this runs on 5V DC - full version of Theyscon drivers! And pics of the inside?  Like clocks
  
 PS found them


 Oh - OXCO clocks!  If I read this correct - to bad no I2S output.


----------



## rb2013

Ok not OXCO but the graph shows the NDK NZ2520SD oscillator are really close to the OXCO and better then the highly acclaimed Crystek 957 clocks
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/35-ndk-nz2520sd-20ppm-ultra-low-phase-noise-oscillator.html
  
 The issue with this unit is the clocking scheme if it uses the same as this DIYHK USB interface:
 https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2014/01/24/
  


> The “C7424Z” device is used as a clock divider to generate the 22.xx and 24.xx frequencies used by XMOS device and also used by the downstream device (the DAC). Seems the clock line to the XMOS device is also isolated in order to prevent any kind of noise leakage from the XMOS/USB side to the Clock/Clean side.


 


> Here is a link with jitter measurements on the XMOS:http://www.fetaudio.com/archives/1440
> It shows jitter values of ~ 800 psec.​
> I would expect that any clock signal going through some complex logic would result in several 100s psec of added jitter. 800 psec is kind of in the high end of added jitter; 2.5 nsec jitter is unexpected.​
> I found the reference to the 2.5nsec: https://www.xmos.com/en/published/usb-audio-software-design-guide (p25)​
> ...


----------



## roman410

Also i found different on XMOS chips. On DXIO number is 6U6C5 compare to Gustard 8U6C5 (6 vs. 8 core?).


----------



## rb2013

roman410 said:


> Also i found different on XMOS chips. On DXIO number is 6U6C5 compare to Gustard 8U6C5 (6 vs. 8 core?).


 

 Interesting -that is their code


----------



## roman410

I have detailed picture on board my DXIO,  unfortunately I do not have permission create attachments.


----------



## Benny-x

roman410 said:


> Also i found different on XMOS chips. On DXIO number is 6U6C5 compare to Gustard 8U6C5 (6 vs. 8 core?).


 
  
 There's a good description of this on the XMOS site. I haven't read up in a couple months, but it isn't only cores, but also clock frequency and built in features. For these 2 chips the feature set is the same, just performance differences. No idea if there are any real world differences.


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> I wonder if the seller will ship to the US and if it has switchable voltage to 110


 
  
  
'liu68861980' of Melodious/taobao informed me today, they are not prepared to ship their products to USA for now.


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> 'liu68861980' of Melodious/taobao informed me today, they are not prepared to ship their products to USA for now.


 

 Too bad - maybe down the road.  I may give the DIYHIFI interface a try. $180 is very reasonable


----------



## Radiohead99

I've a gustard U12 arriving soon. My dac has USB input (Amanero board combo 384). I'm wondering if anyone knows if Gustard U12 would be better than Amanero combo 384 usb input.
  
 I'll report back once I have the gustard and its broken in.


----------



## kugino

i just got my u12, though it's not set up yet. i'm also currently using an ifi iUSB for cleaner power...where should the U12 go in my chain? straight out of the computer or after the iUSB?


----------



## rb2013

kugino said:


> i just got my u12, though it's not set up yet. i'm also currently using an ifi iUSB for cleaner power...where should the U12 go in my chain? straight out of the computer or after the iUSB?


 

 The U12 would go after the iUSB.  So computer>iUSB>U12>Dac


----------



## Gibalok

kugino said:


> i just got my u12, though it's not set up yet. i'm also currently using an ifi iUSB for cleaner power...where should the U12 go in my chain? straight out of the computer or after the iUSB?


 
 Can you write pls a feedback on U12 and Ifi USB + U12. So the question is it worth to install IFI?


----------



## Hun7er

Hi,
  
 I have installed the U12 on Windows 10 and it works fine 
 Also I use Jriver 20 with the xCore USB Audio driver and the volume has increase !


----------



## rb2013

hun7er said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have installed the U12 on Windows 10 and it works fine
> Also I use Jriver 20 with the xCore USB Audio driver and the volume has increase !


 

 U12 + W10 -Works! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 How do you like it so far?


----------



## kugino

gibalok said:


> Can you write pls a feedback on U12 and Ifi USB + U12. So the question is it worth to install IFI?


 

 eventually, i will. i don't feel the need to use the U12 with my iDSD as its usb input is good...i got the U12 as a USB->s/pdif converter for a DAC that doesn't have USB, but i don't have that DAC yet. i'm also not convinced that the iUSB does much to my system...the USB power out of my iMac is pretty quiet.


----------



## rb2013

kugino said:


> eventually, i will. i don't feel the need to use the U12 with my iDSD as its usb input is good...i got the U12 as a USB->s/pdif converter for a DAC that doesn't have USB, but i don't have that DAC yet. i'm also not convinced that the iUSB does much to my system...the USB power out of my iMac is pretty quiet.


 

 Someone tried the Schiit Wyrd with the U12 and it didn't seem to make a difference if I remember correctly


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> Someone tried the Schiit Wyrd with the U12 and it didn't seem to make a difference if I remember correctly


 
 Perhaps. But it doesn't do any harm either


----------



## kugino

conquerator2 said:


> Perhaps. But it doesn't do any harm either


 

 sure, maybe not. but then why have it? unnecessarily lengthening the chain of devices isn't a good practice...


----------



## conquerator2

kugino said:


> sure, maybe not. but then why have it? unnecessarily lengthening the chain of devices isn't a good practice...


 
 Well, in my case I have a use for both, but I understand if someone does not. For all I know, it might still be sonically beneficial for them at least 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 If it isn't then they don't need it. I firmly believe it was beneficial for me.


----------



## MINORISUKE

rb2013 said:


> Thanks Gino!  You have the 9V transformer as well.  Same as my two.  I noticed the Melodious MX-U8 uses a better quality Talema transformer - at approx $175 USD I would love to try this one.
> 
> 
> 
> PS If they ever start selling on Ebay for US delivery I'd buy one for sure


 
 I ordered MX-U8 (Melodious Audio) from a shop located in China that ships worldwide.  There exist two models for 230V and 115V (fixed voltage).
 Those who are interested can send me PM.


----------



## prot

minorisuke said:


> I ordered MX-U8 (Melodious Audio) from a shop located in China that ships worldwide.  There exist two models for 230V and 115V (fixed voltage).
> Those who are interested can send me PM.




Congrats and dont forget to post the impressions. Also, you can just post your shoplink here, there are many others all over headfi and in this thread too.


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> I ordered MX-U8 (Melodious Audio) from a shop located in China that ships worldwide.  There exist two models for 230V and 115V (fixed voltage).
> Those who are interested can send me PM.


 

 I'm interested in getting one - just a little low on audio funds right now.  Selling some stuff soon - will get it then


----------



## MINORISUKE

minorisuke said:


> I ordered MX-U8 (Melodious Audio) from a shop located in China that ships worldwide.  There exist two models for 230V and 115V (fixed voltage).
> Those who are interested can send me PM.


 

 Before sending me PM, please check my initial post (#951) and visit the manufacturer's site, using a translator if necessary.
 If your interest lies also in price in comparison with U12, I do not think MX-U8 will be your candidate.  I paid 50% more including shipping and handling charge, as this model is not a regular product of this shop yet.
 I can give no comment about its performance, as I have not got one yet.
 As for introducing this shop here in the forum, I think it is too early.  Every question sent to the shop about this product is forwarded to the manufacturer, which takes lots of time of the shop agent.
 Therefore, I appreciate you check the product specifications, etc. by yourself.  Once you have almost decided to buy this model but have no idea how to order it, then I can assist you.


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> Before sending me PM, please check my initial post (#951) and visit the manufacturer's site, using a translator if necessary.
> If your interest lies also in price in comparison with U12, I do not think MX-U8 will be your candidate.  I paid 50% more including shipping and handling charge, as this model is not a regular product of this shop yet.
> I can give no comment about its performance, as I have not got one yet.
> As for introducing this shop here in the forum, I think it is too early.  Every question sent to the shop about this product is forwarded to the manufacturer, which takes lots of time of the shop agent.
> Therefore, I appreciate you check the product specifications, etc. by yourself.  Once you have almost decided to buy this model but have no idea how to order it, then I can assist you.


 

 Thanks for the update - ground breaking stuff here!  What this thread is all about


----------



## abartels

Hi Guys,
  
 I found what i think are the best OCXO's for Audio, thus for our U12.
 The downside is, they are VERY expensive, and not available at the moment 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 For anyone who's interested, here's the link: http://www.pulsarclock.com
  

  
 They also have 3,3Volt Power Regulator for the clocks.
  
 I did send them an email, and this is what i got back from them:
  
 Quote:
 Dear Alex,
  
 thank you for your kind request.
  
 The price of all the frequencies of the Pulsar Clock EXCEPT the 100 MHz version is 350.00 Euro plus VAT (22%) where applicable in EU
 plus a contribution for Shipping and Handling that varies from country to country in order to keep it to the lowest possible value.
  
 The cost of the 100 MHz version is 310.00 Euro plus VAT (22%) where applicable in EU plus a contribution for Shipping and Handling that
 varies from country to country in order to keep it to the lowest possible value.
  
 The price of the Pulsar Power board is 29.51 Euro plus VAT (22%) where applicable plus Shipping and Handling (12.50 Euro with Italian Post,
 no S&H if sent with Pulsar Clocks).
  
 Unfortunately at the present time the company is undergoing an internal reorganizzation so for a certain time (probably few months) it won't be
 possible to sell Pulsar Power and Pulsar Clock.
  
 In case you are interested, please, just let me know without any obligation how much and which units you could need (obviously I gess 1x 45 and 1x 49)
 so I can add you to our waiting list and inform you soon of Pulsar Clock availability at the right time.
  
 Feel free to contact me again if you need.
 Kind regards
 Mauro


----------



## hgpsemaj

For Euro350, why not go for rubidium clock?


----------



## Hun7er

rb2013 said:


> U12 + W10 -Works!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi,
  
 I couldn't hear differences between the U12 and my computer directly with optical cable to the DAC. It confirms my impression when I had an Berkeley Alpha USB.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> For Euro350, why not go for rubidium clock?


 
I wrote that before, i dont want external components for this U12, And, off course i dont want to spend that kind of money,,,
  
Today i ordered NDK NZ2520SD 3.3V 49.152Mhz  and 45.1584Mhz Ultra low phase noise oscillator
They are supposed to be better than the Crystek ones and only cost $8 each 
  
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/35-ndk-nz2520sd-20ppm-ultra-low-phase-noise-oscillator.html
  
Hope they arrive soon 
  
 Still waiting for the UWB regs


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> I wrote that before, i dont want external components for this U12, And, off course i dont want to spend that kind of money,,,
> 
> Today i ordered NDK NZ2520SD 3.3V 49.152Mhz  and 45.1584Mhz Ultra low phase noise oscillator
> They are supposed to be better than the Crystek ones and only cost $8 each
> ...


 

 I saw this posted on the Dexa Neutron Star clock boards:
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/product12660.html


> *A note on so called Femtosecond Clocks, and clocks with Femtosecond Jitter performance.*
> A new breed of audio clocks are emerging on the market claiming jitter performance as low as two digit femtoseconds, like 50 or 70 femtoseconds. (We claim <1 pS = 1000 femtoseconds). The 50 femtosecond performance does not have to do with a spectacular new technology for building clocks, but rather the way jitter is measured. If you wiev jitter graphs for any clock you will find that the jitter is lower at higher frequencies. The jitter in 'femtosecond' clocks are usually measured from 12 kHz to 20 MHz, so mostly out of the audio band. This gives a very nice low jitter figure on paper, however it does not necessarily measure sound quality. We always specify our jitter performance from 10 Hz to 50 kHz.


 
  
 Those NDK's look pretty sweet!


----------



## rb2013

Looking a the NDK listing I noticed this:
  


> For easier comparsion(lower is better), we overlay the two phase noise graph at the same scale, under 25khz(human listenable range) nz2520sd(red line) is better, over 25khz(human unlistenable range) crystek 957 is better.


 
 From approx 7kHz on the CCHD-957 has lower jitter then the NV2520SD.  Wouldn't jitter be more apparent in the sweet spot of human hearing then say at 10Hz.  So the Cyrstek would be the better clock?  The contradict they're own graph when they say the SD has lower jitter under human hearing of 25kHZ


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Looking a the NDK listing I noticed this:
> 
> From approx 7kHz on the CCHD-957 has lower jitter then the NV2520SD.  Wouldn't jitter be more apparent in the sweet spot of human hearing then say at 10Hz.  So the Cyrstek would be the better clock?  The contradict they're own graph when they say the SD has lower jitter under human hearing of 25kHZ


 
 The most important range is 1Hz - 10kHz, and in that range the NDK's are a lot better. As you can see there's NO plot for the Crysteks in that range because they perform really badly in that range.
 At 10Hz Crystek performs -97dBc/Hz and the NKS's -112dBc/Hz, at 100Hz its still -128dBc/Hz for the Crystek against -140dBc/Hz for the NDK.
 At 10kHz and above the NDK's still are around -157dBc/Hz wich is very good. The advantage of the Crystek is in the range above 10kHz, and that's not really an advantage.
  
 What i read in various forums about the NDK's in comparison with the Crystek's is that the NDK's outperform the Crystek's easily SQ-wise.
  
 For $22 including shipment for the two TCXO's it can never go wrong


----------



## Benny-x

abartels said:


> The most important range is 1Hz - 10kHz, and in that range the NDK's are a lot better. As you can see there's NO plot for the Crysteks in that range because they perform really badly in that range.
> At 10Hz Crystek performs -97dBc/Hz and the NKS's -112dBc/Hz, at 100Hz its still -128dBc/Hz for the Crystek against -140dBc/Hz for the NDK.
> At 10kHz and above the NDK's still are around -157dBc/Hz wich is very good. The advantage of the Crystek is in the range above 10kHz, and that's not really an advantage.
> 
> ...


 
 The bolded part above is all I'm thinking about 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Nice find, Abartels. I'm adding them to my personal upgrade list. Well, at least in the alternate dimension where I'm able to find time/money for upgrades 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I also can't comment on the "sweet spot of human hearing". Though there might be some sensitivity at that frequency, it's only one frequency across the whole spectrum. I think it'd more so turn out like "if it's bad you'll throw it out, but if it's good you'll just not notice it" type thing. It's not like if things are good 10k that you just melt, as opposed to if they're bad you really do cringe. And then you sell them, like the HD800s!
  
 For that price, and if you're willing to grab the Crystek's too, having a little shootout between the two is super easy. Then if you don't like the Crystek's then you just clean them up real nice and return them, and if you prefer the Crystek's then you're only $22 the poorer and you know they're better for you than another clock that a lot of people say is great. Win-win to me.
  
 Again, nice find Abartels.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> The most important range is 1Hz - 10kHz, and in that range the NDK's are a lot better. As you can see there's NO plot for the Crysteks in that range because they perform really badly in that range.
> At 10Hz Crystek performs -97dBc/Hz and the NKS's -112dBc/Hz, at 100Hz its still -128dBc/Hz for the Crystek against -140dBc/Hz for the NDK.
> At 10kHz and above the NDK's still are around -157dBc/Hz wich is very good. The advantage of the Crystek is in the range above 10kHz, and that's not really an advantage.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes for $22 worth a try.  It looks like there is no plot on the Crystek's from 1-10Hz.  The crossover is around 7kHz. 
  
 Are the NDK's drop in replacements?  Do they need special procedure in soldering (temperature of the soldering process effecting them).  My understanding that hand soldering is at a lower temp then SMD


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> It's not like if things are good 10k that you just melt, as opposed to if they're bad you really do cringe. And then you sell them, like the HD800s!


 
 Well I don't think the HD800s are cringe worthy - neither did Dave Mahler -ranking them #6 in his epic 'Battle of the Flagship - 58 Headphones' thread.  Ahead of all the LCD's and HE's.  http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-58-headphones-compared-update-audeze-lcd-2-revision-2-6-4-13
  
 I forgot - which HPs are you using?
  


> For that price, and if you're willing to grab the Crystek's too, having a little shootout between the two is super easy. Then if you don't like the Crystek's then you just clean them up real nice and return them, and if you prefer the Crystek's then you're only $22 the poorer and you know they're better for you than another clock that a lot of people say is great. Win-win to me.


 
 Well I don't think it's that 'super easy'.  Once removed I doubt the stock clocks can be re-soldered into place - with very short leads.  Have you ever tried doing that?  I have - and it's no picnic.
 So you are going to solder these in the board and then if you don't like them - 'clean them up real nice and return them'. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  You don't think soldering them on to the board and then removing them won't be noticeable?
  
 These are not hard to find - but mounting them will be - so kudos to Abartels for being the pioneer on this one. 
  
 PS Still waiting to hear about replacing the transformer - didn't someone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 say that would be a simple drop in mod????


----------



## Benny-x

rb2013 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Not Dave Mahler? Oh, well if the boss tells me I like it, then I guess I was wrong, I didn't feel that way, and I "do" like it.
  
 I have no idea what your point was by saying that another person ranked them highly when I was commenting on a well known attribute of them and it not being MY(read not every other person's) cup of tea. It could be yours, but I didn't tell you it wasn't. Wait, let me find a reputable person and then reference them to prove that your own personal opinion isn't possible... Wait, you beat me to it.
  
 And for literally the 3rd time, and only if you aren't asking the question just to be tiring and facetious, take a peak at my profile. Thanks to head-fi's good layout(I really do like it) you'll see what headphones I enjoy, and if you care to reference Mr. Mahler's list you'll see that some of them are also entrants. 


rb2013 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I was kidding, I don't actually think they'd be possible to return to NIB condition and return them... However, to the best of my knowledge the NHK's don't have any leads at all, but rather pads. Either way, it was a joke and I was really just championing the good find and an addition to the mod list.
  


> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> PS Still waiting to hear about replacing the transformer - didn't someone
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Go find my last post about this, the second volley of posts on the topic, which you still seem to not comprehend. So no, someone didn't say that.
  
  
 Every time I respond to your posts I feel like I'm getting trolled. There's enough nonsense to not care, but there's also enough smoke that I feel I have to defend myself for fear of others taking what you said at face value...
  
 If you are trolling then you've gotten me again. If not, then I'm not sure if you have some legitimate inability to recall information or if you have some type of condition where you don't process it correctly from the beginning, but soon enough you'll have my mouth full of an opinion I didn't have or you'll have me put in a camp that I never joined.


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> Not Dave Mahler? Oh, well if the boss tells me I like it, then I guess I was wrong, I didn't feel that way, and I "do" like it.


 
  
 The Woz likes'em and so do I!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQvSG5rStew
  
  
 Chill dude


----------



## rb2013

Ordered a Melodious MXU8 today


----------



## rb2013

Have the Melodious Mx-U8 on the way - some more data and pictures:


> ```
> [color=rgb(33, 33, 33)][left] DSD: DSD64, DSD128, DSD256 (2.822, 3.072, 5.644, 6.144, 11.2896 and 12.288MHz) (DSD requires the use of transmission and the need for DAC supports IIS) XMOS asynchronous receiver's USB audio program, until now recognized as one of the most outstanding asynchronous USB audio solution. The majority of high-end manufacturers use, USB has become almost de facto standard for audio-end applications. XMOS's unusually strong core, internal 8 microkernel work in 500MHz, the processing capacity to handle the USB audio data can be described as overkill, which ensures smooth and USB communication smooth. There will be no other low-end USB program sonic boom occurs. jitter can be as low 4.6ps Product Features: Using XMOS-U8 core, the latest plan, up to 32B 384khz Asynchronous Transfer Built imported TALEMA sealed transformer, using LT1963 and 8 ADP150 linear regulator chip, multi-level multi-group independent power supply, better than the market several hundred dollars XMOS linear power, the whole network only one with such a high-end power of XMOS decoding Do the upgrade on the clock circuit optimization, 44.1 / 88.2 / 176.4 / 352.8Khz and 48/96/192 / 384Khz were using two crystal Output interface is complete, with all current mainstream interfaces to improve playability Product materials introduction: Aluminum chassis, blasting process, with black and silver optional[/left][/color]
> ```
> 
> ...


 






  
 Thanks to MINORISUKE for the tip on this really nice unit!
  
 Cheers!


----------



## hgpsemaj

It looks very promising. I like the transformer separate with the main board.


----------



## Hun7er

Right where we can buy this converter ?


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> It looks very promising. I like the transformer separate with the main board.


 

 Totally agree - this makes sense from many perspectives.  And the Talema transformer is much higher quality.  The plug connection will allow a fairly easy and inexpensive mod to an R-core type of PS transformer..
  
 In fact, the PS filtering and regulation is a major improvement over the Gustard U12.
  
 Better clocking as well - with three TXCO's in the MXU8.
 Murata isolation trans vs Pulse - I don't know if this makes a difference as many claim but would be interesting to hear.
  
 Better SPDIF RCA connector.


----------



## rb2013

hun7er said:


> Right where we can buy this converter ?


 

 I'll PM you


----------



## rb2013

So here is the Talema the MXU8 uses - lot's of room for another better transformer
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/70050K/1295-1025-ND/3881339
  
 Room as well for clock boards and clock PS if needed.
  
 Like a Rubidium clock:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/900#post_11400946
  
 PS
 The Dexa Neutron Star Clock board:
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/digital_dexans.html
 http://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=36
 http://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=37


----------



## rb2013

Looking at the highly rated Berkley Audio Design $1800 USB interface rated by a Computer Audio USB inter shootout as #1.

  
 They use the Crystek TXCO clocks and XMOS chip - but look at the attention to detail on the PS board.  A separate board from the main one, very high quality Tamura transformer


----------



## hgpsemaj

If I'm wrong, please put me right, Berkeley's Alpha USB doesn't support DSD, but only offers POD.


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> If I'm wrong, please put me right, Berkeley's Alpha USB doesn't support DSD, but only offers POD.


 

 I believe you are correct and limited to 24 bit 192K PCM sampling no I2s input
  
 The linear PS is one of the keys to the great sound for this USB interface
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/
  
 It uses the Crystek 957 clocks:
 http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?N=4292773686&Keyword=CCHD-957


----------



## Benny-x

rb2013 said:


> Better clocking as well - with three TXCO's in the MXU8.


 
  
 Can anyone tell me the importance of the 3rd clock? I've found one in the Gustard too, but is it just the initial clock of the XMOS chip?
  
 Just having more TCXOs doesn't do anything when only 2 are used for deriving the 2 subsets of frequencies; 1.) 44.1, 88.2, 176.4 and 2.) 48, 96, 192kHz. It looks good that the MXU8 has a third, but since we know it's not for output, then what's it do?


----------



## prot

benny-x said:


> Can anyone tell me the importance of the 3rd clock? I've found one in the Gustard too, but is it just the initial clock of the XMOS chip?
> 
> Just having more TCXOs doesn't do anything when only 2 are used for deriving the 2 subsets of frequencies; 1.) 44.1, 88.2, 176.4 and 2.) 48, 96, 192kHz. It looks good that the MXU8 has a third, but since we know it's not for output, then what's it do?




AFAIK the third clock is for the XMOS chip itself. Surely important but exactly how much is anyone's guess... usually, there's a better chance to find such info on sites like diyaudio. 

Very curious how the new melodious converter compares to the U12 ... it surely has some theoretical potential.


----------



## ginetto61

prot said:


> AFAIK the third clock is for the XMOS chip itself. Surely important but exactly how much is anyone's guess... usually, there's a better chance to find such info on sites like diyaudio.
> 
> *Very curious how the new melodious converter compares to the U12 ... it surely has some theoretical potential.*


 
  
 Hi ! just to say me as well i am curious.
 Regarding PS i guess a lot depends on the execution quality,
 There are top digital units with SMPS
 This is a very high quality unit from Meitner Audio  for instance 
  

 so it depends
 I guess it is easier to build a cheap and good linear than a cheap and good SMPS maybe ?
 bye


----------



## stuartmc

Taking a look at how the Berkely and Melodious units carefully separate the transformer made me think I should open up my U12 and do more shielding.  I had previously done a lot of shielding of the crystals,  IC's and IEC socket with the 3M AB5100S, but I had not paid as much attention to the transformer itself.  I went back in and carefully constructed a double layered AB5100S hut around and over the entire transformer case.  To my ears, this had more of an audible effect than any of the other shielding, save only the huts I built around the clock crystals.


----------



## hgpsemaj

Could we use copper foil to ease off our transformer shielding job for our U12?


----------



## rb2013

Some good stuff on clocks from this CA thread:
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/lowest-cost-digital-analogue-converter-femto-clocks-18570/index4.html


> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 reply:


> Can you explain, why you have chosen the CCHD-950 cristal oscilator for this comparo ?​​ ​ Crystek makes a much better performing XO, the one that actually audio manufacturers use, called CCHD-957. Here is the comparo of the two (CCHD-950 vs CCHD-957):​​ ​
> 
> ​​ ​ It also outperformas the Tent Labs one you mentioned, although as you probably know, to make fair comparos, one need to compare clocks of same carrier freq. I tried to find phase noise plots for the revelant 22.5792 MHz and 24.5760 MHz clocks on Tent Audio web site, but was unsuccessful.​


 
  
 From Digikey on the NDK clocks:
 http://dkc1.digikey.com/us/en/tod/NDK/TCXO-Portfolio/TCXO-Portfolio.html
 http://crystek.com/documents/appnotes/impactultralow.pdf


----------



## kugino

in the ifi idsd thread they had something to say about femto clocks as well:
  
post #657
  


ifi audio said:


> *Super Duper Features 1.4*
> 
> Femto Clocks – Picky about Phase Noise
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

kugino said:


> in the ifi idsd thread they had something to say about femto clocks as well:
> 
> post #657


 

 Thanks good stuff!


----------



## b0bb

I have a pair of CCHD-957s in my Breeze Audio XMOS USB Spdif.
 These are 22.xxxMHz and 24.xxxMHz crystals, which have lower phase noise than the ones running at 45MHz
 Overall better presentation especially on the clarity and transients (cymbals, hi-hats etc)


 CCHD-575s other than 80MHz and 100MHz is not sold by Digikey or Mouser so it is almost impossible to buy.
  
 I have experimented with the 100MHz clocks on the Yulong DA8 and below is the writeup.
 There are 2 Femto class clocks in the eval, the CCHD-575 and the ABLNO from Abracon.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/673033/review-yulong-audio-sabre-da8-reference-dac/1470#post_11104715


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> I have a pair of CCHD-957s in my Breeze Audio XMOS USB Spdif.
> These are 22.xxxMHz and 24.xxxMHz crystals, which have lower phase noise than the ones running at 45MHz
> Overall better presentation especially on the clarity and transients (cymbals, hi-hats etc)
> 
> ...


 

 Those have those easy swap clock sockets


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Those have those easy swap clock sockets


 

 Yes, after I put them in 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Before picture


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Yes, after I put them in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Where did you get them?  Makes swapping clocks so much easier, if they are the same size.  Ordered some Vanguards TCXO's for my DAS mod Project.  But may ordersome for the U12 or MXU8 when it arrives depending which one I decide to keep.  May try the NDK's and the 957's from Mouser.  I've heard good things about the Vanguards.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/141259820137?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Where did you get them?  Makes swapping clocks so much easier, if they are the same size.  Ordered some Vanguards TCXO's for my DAS mod Project.  But may ordersome for the U12 or MXU8 when it arrives depending which one I decide to keep.  May try the NDK's and the 957's from Mouser.  I've heard good things about the Vanguards.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/141259820137?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 

 Footprint is standard 14pin Dual Inline, remove the unused pins. The machined pin socket types work best. There are ones with the pins already removed except for 4 in the corner but those are rare.
  
 The NDKs are very small, about 2/3rds the size of the Epson SAW XO in my Yulong DA8 experiments, soldering that is fiddly as the XO can be easily damaged by overheating.
 On DA8 link I posted a few responses up, I have a picture of the XOs side by side to show the relative sizes.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Footprint is standard 14pin Dual Inline, remove the unused pins. The machined pin socket types work best. There are ones with the pins already removed except for 4 in the corner but those are rare.
> 
> The NDKs are very small, about 2/3rds the size of the Epson SAW XO in my Yulong DA8 experiments, soldering that is fiddly as the XO can be easily damaged by overheating.
> On DA8 link I posted a few responses up, I have a picture of the XOs side by side to show the relative sizes.


 

 Yes - I thought installing those NDK's would be tricky - and heat is an issue when soldering delicate crystal clocks.
  
 I'll checkout the DA8 Link.
  
 Thanks again!


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Footprint is standard 14pin Dual Inline, remove the unused pins. The machined pin socket types work best. There are ones with the pins already removed except for 4 in the corner but those are rare.
> 
> The NDKs are very small, about 2/3rds the size of the Epson SAW XO in my Yulong DA8 experiments, soldering that is fiddly as the XO can be easily damaged by overheating.
> On DA8 link I posted a few responses up, I have a picture of the XOs side by side to show the relative sizes.


 

 Read your post and follow-ups - great stuff.  I notice the Melodius MXU8 uses the low noise regulator ADP150 as you mentioned- eight of them.  And of course a dedicated power source to the clocks as there is no DAC chip to share power with.
  


> Crystek CCHD575:
> ===============
> This is similar to the XOs offered as "femto" clock upgrades by several DAC manufacturers, this has a rms jitter of 82fs.
> The imaging is more precise and the topend is more extended that the CCHD950 but the lower midrange and bass sounds thin in comparison.
> ...


 


> ```
> [color=rgb(33,33,33)][left] ...using LT1963 and 8 ADP150 linear regulator chip, multi-level multi-group independent power supply, better than the market several hundred dollars XMOS linear power[/left][/color]
> ```


 
 Interesting how the different clocks effected the sound quality.


----------



## walfredo

rb2013 said:


> kugino said:
> 
> 
> > eventually, i will. i don't feel the need to use the U12 with my iDSD as its usb input is good...i got the U12 as a USB->s/pdif converter for a DAC that doesn't have USB, but i don't have that DAC yet. i'm also not convinced that the iUSB does much to my system...the USB power out of my iMac is pretty quiet.
> ...


 
  
 Would this depend on the computer used?  Some have better usb than others (power noise wise).


----------



## conquerator2

Finally received my 2nd U12. So far so good. Burnin' it in.


----------



## ccschua

may I know what is the best mod ? has anyone tried using a ultra low noise LDO like the TPA4700 ?


----------



## rb2013

walfredo said:


> Would this depend on the computer used?  Some have better usb than others (power noise wise).


 

 I noticed a difference right away with the ElFidelity SATA and fan filters replacing the SOtM ones and upgrading to a really nice low ESR fanless PS.  The PC will make a difference.


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> I noticed a difference right away with the ElFidelity SATA and fan filters replacing the SOtM ones and upgrading to a really nice low ESR fanless PS.  The PC will make a difference.


 

 Moving the PC far out of the picture made a large difference. I am actually using a dongle with ethernet in and USB out to the DACs now, with the backend sitting on a general purpose server.
 Did not expect it to be better than my existing dedicated machines with Foobar, Audirvana and Amarra. I was pleasantly surprised
  
 Sotm make such a device and I also built  few from the Squeezebox touch and the little ARM boards (Raspberry Pi and Beaglebone Black <-- these cost less than the 2pcs of Crystek 957 XOs I used on my USB interface).


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Moving the PC far out of the picture made a large difference. I am actually using a dongle with ethernet in and USB out to the DACs now, with the backend sitting on a general purpose server.
> Did not expect it to be better than my existing dedicated machines with Foobar, Audirvana and Amarra. I was pleasantly surprised
> 
> Sotm make such a device and I also built  few from the Squeezebox touch and the little ARM boards (Raspberry Pi and Beaglebone Black <-- these cost less than the 2pcs of Crystek 957 XOs I used on my USB interface).


 

 I also hear that W2012 R2 sounds way better then any of the non-server Win's.  There was a lengthy discussion on my 'SSD PC Music Server' thread:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/754654/new-pc-music-server-build-project-all-ssd-no-fans
  
 Also a recent blind study published found that even the consumer Win was superior to the Mac OS
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/750421/pc-vs-mac-which-sound-better-as-music-servers-absolute-sound-article-new-methods-part-3
  
 My next project while I'm waiting for the MXU8 to arrive is port my 3TB of music files to SSD drives


----------



## Gibalok

Is Berkeley Alfa USB worth to upgrade from gustard U12? And if so what DAC should be or Matrix X-Sabre is Ok?


----------



## rb2013

gibalok said:


> Is Berkeley Alfa USB worth to upgrade from gustard U12? And if so what DAC should be or Matrix X-Sabre is Ok?


 

 Well if you have a $10K DAC and very deep pockets - yeah.  But for most of us the extra $1500 would go a long ways to a better DAC.
  
 This is a nice DAC - http://www.totaldac.com/D1-tube-eng.htm


----------



## ginetto61

b0bb said:


> I have a pair of CCHD-957s in *my Breeze Audio XMOS USB Spdif.*


 
  
 Hi could you please provide* a link to the actual unit mentioned ? * 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 i have searched but i have not found it 
 Thanks a lot
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## Gibalok

rb2013 said:


> Well if you have a $10K DAC and very deep pockets - yeah.  But for most of us the extra $1500 would go a long ways to a better DAC.
> 
> This is a nice DAC - http://www.totaldac.com/D1-tube-eng.htm


 
  
 Absolutely agree. Thank you.


----------



## b0bb

ginetto61 said:


> Hi could you please provide* a link to the actual unit mentioned ? *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 The unit has been discontinued but you can still find on Ebay
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/XMOS-Asynchronous-USB-to-Coaxial-Optical-converter-24Bit192K-with-PSU-Weiliang-/141026791919?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20d5da11ef
  
  
 The XMOS chip in this unit is older, goes up to 192kHz compared to the Gustard which does 384kHz


----------



## ginetto61

b0bb said:


> The unit has been discontinued but you can still find on Ebay
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/XMOS-Asynchronous-USB-to-Coaxial-Optical-converter-24Bit192K-with-PSU-Weiliang-/141026791919?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20d5da11ef
> 
> 
> The XMOS chip in this unit is older, goes up to 192kHz compared to the Gustard which does 384kHz


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot indeed.
 For me it is not a problem. I usually need no more than 16 bit/48k
 So i bought one.  Let's listen. The look is very nice.
 Thanks again.  Kind regards, gino


----------



## b0bb

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot indeed.
> For me it is not a problem. I usually need no more than 16 bit/48k
> So i bought one.  Let's listen. The look is very nice.
> Thanks again.  Kind regards, gino


 

 Hope you like it, the designer has paid attention to properly powering the clocks, separate transformer winding/rectifier/filter, 317 pre-regulator, separate ADP150 low noise regulator for each crystal XO as well as for the various split supplies of the XMOS.


----------



## kugino

for $20 more the gustard seems like a way better deal...


----------



## ginetto61

b0bb said:


> Hope you like it, the designer has paid attention to properly powering the clocks, separate transformer winding/rectifier/filter, 317 pre-regulator, separate ADP150 low noise regulator for each crystal XO as well as for the various split supplies of the XMOS.


 
  
 Hi and yes.  What i like of the usb to spidf devices is that they allow for the use of any dac around.
 And i understand that some dacs from the past are still very well judged.and sometimes can be found for a nice price.
 Thanks again.  Gino


----------



## abartels

Hi guys,
  
  
 Today i started modding the clocks in the U12.
 After i "burned" an NDK which i bought for my upsampling circuit within my dac i had to find another solution to solder those tiny NDK's.
  
 Upsampling pcb with original crystal - NDK in comparison, very very tiny,,,
  


  
 I tried to solder wires onto the pads, it worked, but the wire was too stiff so they "broke" from the pads several times.
  


  
 Finally i burned the NDK and halted modification of upsampling pcb.
  
 Today i thought i try using two single wires (from normal 230V powercord) and twisting them together to get a flexibel wire
 (at the left in the picture)
  

  
 I took a DIL14 and some 3M AB51000S so i could stick the NDK on the adhesive side of the 3M,
 this made soldering a much easier job!
  
 First i cut off the pins which won't be used
  

  
  
  
 Then i soldered the twisted wires to the pads
  

  
 I put some 3M AB51000S inside the DIL14, with adhesive side up
  

  
 Then i put the 3M with NDK together on top of the DIL14
  


  
 Then i put some extra 3M in the hole in the DIP14
  

  
 and putting some adhesive tape around so they keep nicely together
  



  
 Then i took some powerglue to glue a 10nF capacitor on top which has to be connected between Ground and VCC (pad 2 - 4 of NDK, pin 7 - 14 DIL14)
  


  
 Then i carefully wrapped the wires around the pins of the cap and then to the corresponding pin of the DIL14 and soldered them very shortly
  

  
 And then the other two wires
  

  

  

  
 I wrote the Frequencies on top of the cap, just in time, almost forgot what frequency they were 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Then i opened-up the U12 and desoldered the clocks (the text and dustcap came off when removing the 3M absorbers)
  

  
 I molested another DIL14 and used the pins to solder on the U12's pcb (to solder them, just put them on another DIL14 so they wil be soldered straight vertical!)
  

  


  
 Then i went listening before tailoring the big caps with 3M absorbers again, just to be sure everything works fine and sounds as promised!
  
  
 First impressions:
  
 Noise floor is much lower, more "quieter" - more black around instruments and voices, more detail and bigger soundstage, more lively, yes, all those things
 one can expect when using very good crystals. I'm sure my neighbours DON'T like the new crystals since i'm tending to put a lot more power in my speakers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I will report back when the crystals have passed their burn-in period.
  
 Dexa regulator will follow, i ordered the wrong voltage, my mistake, dumb, dumb, dumb


----------



## 2609danny

dear all,
              im danny i have the problem,  today i buy new gustard u12 , go home use pc with win 7 os and install come with driver and
  
 setting the windows , use foobar to play wav 16/44.1 and 24/96, dsd64  . From u12 cox output  to the sony e9000es dac,
  
 but on the way suddenly mute the u12 display "----" and the e9000es display "unlock", but foobar still playing the song  no stop.
  
 i close foobar and reopen foobar , play again also no sound and the u12 display still display "----". 
  
 i think i need unplug usb cable the u12 back to normal , play foobar again this time is fine have sound and u12 display "44.1"
  
 but , happen agin after a few song ,  
  
 ok this time i unplug and uninstall the driver and replug reinstall driver once again , after install try again play music use foobar , 
  
 open a few song  is fine , but still happen again no change , what is the problem? the driver ? the u12 ? the foobar setting?  
  
 anyone can help me to fix this problem , many thx~


----------



## rb2013

2609danny said:


> dear all,
> im danny i have the problem,  today i buy new gustard u12 , go home use pc with win 7 os and install come with driver and
> 
> setting the windows , use foobar to play wav 16/44.1 and 24/96, dsd64  . From u12 cox output  to the sony e9000es dac,
> ...


 

 Check your buffer and latency setting in Foobar.  Which drivers are you using?  Check your spdif cable or try a different type - say coax or optical.


----------



## 2609danny

hi , thank for your helping me first.
  
 i setting buffer "5000"ms , but where is  "latency"? 
  
 and  using driver xmos 2.23.0.0


----------



## rb2013

2609danny said:


> hi , thank for your helping me first.
> 
> i setting buffer "5000"ms , but where is  "latency"?
> 
> and  using driver xmos 2.23.0.0


 

 Read the earlier part of thread and download Chodi's drivers -they will have a TUSBAudio Control Panel.  It can be there under 'Buffer Settings' 'USB Streaming Mode'.
  
 PS try increasing the Buffer to 7930ms that's were mine is.  What output mode are you using?


----------



## Benny-x

abartels said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> 
> Today i started modding the clocks in the U12.
> ...


 
 Very. very cool post, abartels! I hope to hear your longer listening feedback when you get the time. And then to know your feedback on the Dexa regulator. Haha, I spent some time looking at the different voltages for those too, so that's too bad to hear you got the wrong one. It's so east with those though, the ONLY difference is 2 numbers in the product desription.
  
 It's great that those NDK clocks were so cheap, you were able to pick up and do this mod almost immediately after finding out about it. Great! And the work you did was really cool. What was the 10nf cap for? I mean, was that exact capacitance necessary or could you go bigger?
  
 I now wonder how these clocks would fare against the Crystek 975s that we talked about earlier. I've got no experience with the Crystek's besides the name, but it'd still be cool to know. Do you have any plans for that now that you've installed the DIL14 pin-posts?


----------



## abartels

benny-x said:


> Very. very cool post, abartels! I hope to hear your longer listening feedback when you get the time. And then to know your feedback on the Dexa regulator. Haha, I spent some time looking at the different voltages for those too, so that's too bad to hear you got the wrong one. It's so east with those though, the ONLY difference is 2 numbers in the product desription.
> 
> It's great that those NDK clocks were so cheap, you were able to pick up and do this mod almost immediately after finding out about it. Great! And the work you did was really cool. What was the 10nf cap for? I mean, was that exact capacitance necessary or could you go bigger?
> 
> I now wonder how these clocks would fare against the Crystek 975s that we talked about earlier. I've got no experience with the Crystek's besides the name, but it'd still be cool to know. Do you have any plans for that now that you've installed the DIL14 pin-posts?


 
 Hi Benny,
  
 I had in my mind that i needed 3,3Volt, so i ordered 3,3Volt 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 The 10nF Cap is what NDK advises, see below:

  
 I will wait 120-150 hours for burnin-in before giving my final listening impression.
  
 It's not in my intention to compare the NDK's with the Crystek's unless someone sends me a couple of Crystek CCHD-957's to compare.
 The Crysteks are about $35 each, that would be $70 excluding shipment (to The Netherlands). That's too much for a comparison.
  
 I'm convinced that phase noise performance (in total) of NZ2520SD is a lot better than the Crystek CCHD-957.
  
*A short listening ecperience from yesterday evening:*
  
 I was reading a book at 10:00 PM and couldn't resist playing Organ music (Felix Hell)  in the background at a VERY low volume. I was shocked (read: pleased) about the sub-low (32 foot organ pipe) output at very low volume.
 Bass was VERY tight with lots of pressure, i had a big smile on my face, but sadly I had to seize listening because i was afraid i got troubles with my neighbours because of resonating concrete floor 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Can't wait till they passed burn-in time.


----------



## rb2013

The Melidious MXU8 came in yesterday.  Straight out of the box better then my modded U12.
  
 Driver's installed without a hitch - and has the full Audio Control Panel - Vol, Bal, Buffer, Bit Rate. etc...
  
 Wow is this thing sweet - can't wait until it's fully burnt in and modded.
  
 Just ordered Vanguard clocks for it and replacement caps.
  
 Maybe those Murata's are better then the Pulses - or the much better Talema transformer.
  
 The tone is richer and the sound more spacious - way more air then the U12.
  
 Got to get me another one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 PS - If anybody wants a modded U12 - PM me.


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> The Melidious MXU8 came in yesterday.  Straight out of the box better then my modded U12.
> 
> Driver's installed without a hitch - and has the full Audio Control Panel - Vol, Bal, Buffer, Bit Rate. etc...
> 
> ...


 
 Where did you buy the Melodious?
 Link would be appreciated.


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Where did you buy the Melodious?
> Link would be appreciated.


 

 They asked that we not post a link yet. to were I bought it.  As the distributor is working out a selling agreement with the manufacturer - for US delivery. 
 They are hand made.  I have ordered a second one.
  
 A tip of the hat to MINORISUKE for the original post. 
 Thanks!


----------



## rb2013

This is the Taobao website
 http://melodious-music.taobao.com
  
 I have only 10 hours on the MXU8 and it is sounding so good.  Deeper tone and even more liquid musicality then the U12.  The difference in tone is the big winner for me, not that the U12 was bad.  In fact it was excellent - but this is crazy good.  Can't wait until 100 hrs is on this.
  
 I have ordered Crystek clocks and Pannie FC caps from Mouser.
  
 Will start up a new thread tomorrow.
  
 PS Here are some pictures of mine:
 The circuit board is A+ gold etched and of very high quality - better then the U12 by a mile.


----------



## pigfatcat

rb2013 said:


> This is the Taobao website
> 
> 
> http://melodious-music.taobao.com
> ...



 


I bought the U12 last week and used it between my HTPC and Hugo coaxial input , and got very pleasing, natural and smooth result. The relative harshless of HD-USB , especially playing SACD is gone . Direct connection to HD-USB still has an edge in resolution and weight. I will be upgrading the USB cable to see if U12 can match the original HD-USB connection .

I did notice MXU8 even before I bought U12, and reckon that potentially it might be better than U12 .However, it seems MXU8 cannot transmitt DSD/DoP through SPDIF.My Hugo does not have I2S input I have tons of SACD.iso and DSF to play . I have thus chosen U 12 and I don't regret .

I notice another new DI : Tanley Audio 
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0k.7385961.1997985097.d4918997.gP8xeX&id=40193288881&_u=81d7eit64f3, 

The desgn is more sophisticated . I suspect it might match the performance of Berkeley Alpha , Weiss Int204, or Hydra Z It uses FPGA for data processing , XMOS for USB , Crystek CCHD-957 and can accept external clock , and employs isolation chips between XMOS and FPGA . At RMB 2900 plus shipping , I guess it takes at least $500 to reach US or Europe . It should do everything and do everything better than both U12 and MXU8 .

It's a bit too expensive for me . Any one wants to try ? 

Features and specs:
Input Formats: USB PCM(kHz) 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96,176.4, 192, 352.4, 384 
 DSD64 (DoP, native DSD), DSD128(DoP, native DSD), DSD256(native DSD)

Output: S/PDIF coaxial , AES/EBU, BNC, DSD,I2S over HDMI(LVDS),DoP (DSD64,DSD128) over SPDIF
 SPDIF supports DoP(DSD64,DSD128) output,SPDIF output data rate can be up to 384KHz

Full isolated, asynchronous USB interface.

No driver needed for Mac OS 10.6+ and Linux with UAC2 compliant kernel.

Provide Windows drivers and ASIO driver for Microsoft Windows XP to Windows 8 32/64 bit OS at no fee.

Firmware upgradability.(Currently the firmware update can only be accomplished with a Windows computer ).

USB part uses XMOS U serial chip, and FPGA uses XILINX SPARTAN 6 serial FPGA. FPGA implements the data processing,high isolation chips are placed between the XMOS chip and FPGA,so this placement does not limit the bandwidth,neither does introduce output jitter.

The two main oscillators are from Crystek CCHD-957 ultra-low phase noise clocks.but only one works at the same time, this reduce the electromagnetic interference from each other.

All the SPDIF output are re-clocked by low phase noise clocks,this function makes the output jitter that occurs on FPGA output lower.

USB uses self-power(not bus power).

Voltage input is AC 220V or AC 110V.

SDIF-3 function is a customized feature,the word clock of SDIF-3 can be slave or master. if you need SDIF-3 function, please contact seller.

The Windows driver ,ASIO, update tool program would be sent via eMail.If the firmware needs to be updated, it will be sent via e-mail.

if you have any question about this product or have any problem with this product ,please feel free to contact me. tanly.tam at gmail dot com

Buyer should be responsible for all the import duties and taxes.


----------



## hgpsemaj

Both 'Melodious MXU8' and 'Tanley Audio Asynchronous USB interface' use Talema transformer and separate their transformer with the main circuit board, the following external linear power supply may assist U12 to regain those losing ground:
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1-c.w4004-10606815601.9.ho7Xhu&id=44614422828


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> The Melidious MXU8 came in yesterday.  Straight out of the box better then my modded U12.
> 
> Driver's installed without a hitch - and has the full Audio Control Panel - Vol, Bal, Buffer, Bit Rate. etc...
> 
> ...


 
 Hi,
  
 I'm afraid the vanguard clocks are the same like the ones used in our Gustard and maybe also the Melodious.
 Those have fase noise specs at -120dBc/Hz at 10kHz . Thats not that good,,,,, it should be about -155dBc/Hz at 10kHz, like the NDK's and Crysteks.


----------



## rb2013

pigfatcat said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > This is the Taobao website
> ...


 

 Nice!  I would be willing to try it - if the ship to the US.  I'll be upgrading the clocks in the MXU8 to Crystek 957's as well.  And some PS upgrades.  I may look to replace the Talema with an R-Core transformer.  The the way the MX-U8 is designed with open ps pins - very easy to piggyback.
  
 I don't have many DSD files - as I prefer the Ultra Hi Res (32/176k) sampled LPs, these days a lot of new music is available on 180gm virgin vinyl.  But for those few DSD files I use a Foobar conversion to PCM - works and sounds great.
  
 Are there more pictures of the power supply for the Tanley?
  
 I doubt it's as good as the Berkley as they use some very ingenious PS and isolation designs - but a heck of a lot cheaper.
  
 I have 2 Gustards available with upgraded caps (FCs same valve as stock).  Will get a classified ad up this week for them.


----------



## Radiohead99

How'd you hook up an external linear PSU to Gustard U12? I do not see any input DC connector.
  
 Btw, I've put about 50 hours on my U12. So far the sound is better than going to direct to the USB input on my dac which uses amanero USB board. The sound is more musical, little bit more rounded as a result some inferior harsh sounding music sounds quite a bit better and I also hear a less congestion in upper mid/lower high frequency. There may have been a very slight reduction in dynamics. But overall the improvement is very very nice for money I spent on the U12.


----------



## pigfatcat

The whole point is supposed to be the "isolation chips between XMOS and FPGA". I see something here similar to the the concept of Berkeley, but the are choosing a different path


----------



## pigfatcat




----------



## pigfatcat




----------



## rb2013

pigfatcat said:


>


 
 Nice!  It would be nice to see someone step up and do linear regulated PS like Berkley.  Good to see the Talema in there though.


----------



## m0reilly

radiohead99 said:


> How'd you hook up an external linear PSU to Gustard U12? I do not see any input DC connector.
> 
> Btw, I've put about 50 hours on my U12. So far the sound is better than going to direct to the USB input on my dac which uses amanero USB board. The sound is more musical, little bit more rounded as a result some inferior harsh sounding music sounds quite a bit better and I also hear a less congestion in upper mid/lower high frequency. There may have been a very slight reduction in dynamics. But overall the improvement is very very nice for money I spent on the U12.


 

 what output are you using from the u12 to dac?


----------



## Radiohead99

I'm using the spdif output and a generic spdif cable. OTOH my usb cable is pretty high end.


----------



## hgpsemaj

radiohead99 said:


> How'd you hook up an external linear PSU to Gustard U12? I do not see any input DC connector.


 
  
 Modification works are needed. I am consideration the following:
  
 (i) Use the external PS to replace the existing transformer.
  
 or
  
 (ii) NDK NZ2520SD 3.3V 49.152Mhz  and 45.1584Mhz could use the existing power supply from the main circuit board. However, OCXO need an external 5V/1A power supply source, and also, need to connect the 'GND pin' back to the external power supply's GND. 
  
 So, I got a feeling this external linear PS could upgrade my U12.


----------



## Stillhart

b0bb said:


> Moving the PC far out of the picture made a large difference. I am actually using a dongle with ethernet in and USB out to the DACs now, with the backend sitting on a general purpose server.
> Did not expect it to be better than my existing dedicated machines with Foobar, Audirvana and Amarra. I was pleasantly surprised
> 
> Sotm make such a device and I also built  few from the Squeezebox touch and the little ARM boards (Raspberry Pi and Beaglebone Black <-- these cost less than the 2pcs of Crystek 957 XOs I used on my USB interface).


 
  
 So the U12 works with Raspberry Pi?  I think I read something earlier in the thread that XMOS drivers are native to linux so I believe it should work, but I wanted to confirm.


----------



## roman410

stillhart said:


> So the U12 works with Raspberry Pi?  I think I read something earlier in the thread that XMOS drivers are native to linux so I believe it should work, but I wanted to confirm.


 

 I do not have Rasberry Pi, just my Gustard U12 work perfect with my linux  Squeezebox touch, its native no drivers needed. Also I decided sale my Gustard, used 60hr, PM my if you interesting.


----------



## Stillhart

roman410 said:


> I do not have Rasberry Pi, just my Gustard U12 work perfect with my linux  Squeezebox touch, its native no drivers needed. Also I decided sale my Gustard, used 60hr, PM my if you interesting.


 
  
 Bummer, if I'd known 2 days ago...


----------



## b0bb

stillhart said:


> So the U12 works with Raspberry Pi?  I think I read something earlier in the thread that XMOS drivers are native to linux so I believe it should work, but I wanted to confirm.


 

 I am using the RPi with my Breeze Audio interface. It is an older XMOS chip.
  
 My RPi runs Tiny Core Linux which has the USB 2.0 Asynch mode in-kernel audio drivers that works with any compliant USB interface (XMOS is one).
  
 On my Breeze Audio this goes up to 192kHz and on my other DACS with the Amanero interface I can do up to 384kHz and DSD128.
 Anything above that say DSD256/768kHz would require a custom driver.
  
 Not sure about the U12 but if you plug in a U12 into a recent  linux box (Linux 3.0 and above) and get audio working, it will work with the RPi  since it is the same in-kernel driver.
  
 Here is the linux version on my RPi 2
 Linux MightyPi 3.18.7-piCore #1 SMP PREEMPT Sun Feb 22 20:18:02 UTC 2015 armv7l GNU/Linux


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Nice!  It would be nice to see someone step up and do linear regulated PS like Berkley.  Good to see the Talema in there though.


 

 The Melodious you bought looks like a better implementation.
 The transformers on the Melodious at the spdif RCA and AES outputs serve to provide galvanic isolation between the board and the DAC but also between various DACs if you plug in more than one.
  
 If you look at the Berkeley, only the isolated site is powered by the power supply, power for the XMOS comes from the host, on this, isolated and non-isolated sides go into the same power supply, RF noise can couple thru the Talema quite easily, this greatly diminishes the the value of the isolators. If the USB interface side can be powered from the host, this may improve matters.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Both 'Melodious MXU8' and 'Tanley Audio Asynchronous USB interface' use Talema transformer and separate their transformer with the main circuit board, the following external linear power supply may assist U12 to regain those losing ground:
> 
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1-c.w4004-10606815601.9.ho7Xhu&id=44614422828


 
 Thank you for that link, i think i will try that one!!


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Thank you for that link, i think i will try that one!!


 
 Hello Abartels,
  
 Are all the pins location of NDK identical to our TCXO? I mean NDK's Stand-by pin and Vcc pin. Please advise.
  
 Regards,


----------



## abartels

*Listening impressions after replacing Gustard Crystals with NDK NZ2520SD's - 50 hours burn-in time*
  
  
 In one word: AMAZING
  
 There's soo much depth in soundstage, the ease of music reproduction, airyness, tonal balance, very tight and powerfull deep bass,
 "complete darkness around voices", never thought this would happen!!
  
 Don't forget, it has only burned-in for 50 hours, it will gain more after another 80 hours.
  
 My plans:
  
 1- Replacing the onboard smd crystal for XMOS with NDK crystal
 2- Using external Linear PSU instead of replacing onboard regulators (thanks for the link *hgpsemaj*)
  
 Maybe i'm going to build my own linear psu, isn't that difficult to accomplish, found a nice case that would nicely fit next to U12:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-0905-black-Full-Aluminum-Enclosure-mini-amplifier-case-Preamp-box-PSU-chassis-/111627609509?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19fd8625a5
  

  
 This one is only $22 including int. shipping!!
  
  
 Btw the Melodious looks very promising and design is very easy to modify, sadly it doesn't do DSD otherwise i would consider bying one.
 The Tanley Audio looks very good, but, who designs this kind of superb device with USB input at it's front panel?!?!?!?!? It's a no go for me, sorry.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello Abartels,
> 
> Are all the pins location of NDK identical to our TCXO? I mean NDK's Stand-by pin and Vcc pin. Please advise.
> 
> Regards,


 
 Yes, pinout is the same


----------



## MINORISUKE

> Originally Posted by *abartels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> .....
> Btw the Melodious looks very promising and design is very easy to modify, sadly it doesn't do DSD otherwise i would consider bying one.
> .....


 
 I ordered mine before rb2013, but it is still on the way (currently in Leipzig, Zollamt).....
 The reason why I ordered it is its DSD output from RJ45.  MX-U8 should support DSD, as described in the store's Web site.


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> *Listening impressions after replacing Gustard Crystals with NDK NZ2520SD's - 50 hours burn-in time*
> 
> 
> In one word: AMAZING
> ...


 
  
 Say, if you decide to build your liner power supply for U12
  
 (i)  Do you consider 'R Core Transformer' would outpace Talema?
  
 http://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.1.72lSoM&id=12719221696&ad_id=&am_id=&cm_id=140105335569ed55e27b&pm_id=&abbucket=17
  
  
 (ii)  According to our post#1074, If power for the XMOS not comes from the host, isolated and non-isolated sides go into the same power supply, RF noise can couple thru the transformer quite easily. In order to avoid this sort of interference to each other, shall we adopt 2 transformers?
  
  
 It is just my two cents for one step closer to Berkeley Alpha USB.


----------



## hgpsemaj

Hello Abartels,
  
 If you prepare to spend US$22 on an aluminium enclosure, you might like to take a look on the following:
  
 http://detail.1688.com/offer/38668561446.html?spm=0.0.0.0.mi41YQ
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.54.eQfgG6&id=44239759420&ns=1&abbucket=17#detail
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.w4004-10378090960.12.muXSLg&id=44234039620
  
  
 Please note, all the above mentioned links are quoted on RMB. And, please confirm the freight cost with the supplier.
  
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Say, if you decide to build your liner power supply for U12
> 
> (i)  Do you consider 'R Core Transformer' would outpace Talema?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, off course i would use R Core transformers, and yes, at least 2 transformers.
 Problem is that in the case above, it wouldn't fit two transformers and a pcb with all electronic components, and, i definitely need schematics U12 to decide how to construct the psu's


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Yes, off course i would use R Core transformers, and yes, at least 2 transformers.
> Problem is that in the case above, it wouldn't fit two transformers and a pcb with all electronic components, and, i definitely need schematics U12 to decide how to construct the psu's


 
  I've just contacted huang_cs/TaoBao in respect of the schematics U12, but, he did not give me any reply. Too bad.


----------



## MINORISUKE

hgpsemaj said:


> I've just contacted huang_cs/TaoBao in respect of the schematics U12, but, he did not give me any reply. Too bad.


 

 From my experience of working for a consumer electronics company, schematics will be never disclosed to end-users.  I do not think it is bad, but normal.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> The Melodious you bought looks like a better implementation.
> The transformers on the Melodious at the spdif RCA and AES outputs serve to provide galvanic isolation between the board and the DAC but also between various DACs if you plug in more than one.
> 
> If you look at the Berkeley, only the isolated site is powered by the power supply, power for the XMOS comes from the host, on this, isolated and non-isolated sides go into the same power supply, RF noise can couple thru the Talema quite easily, this greatly diminishes the the value of the isolators. If the USB interface side can be powered from the host, this may improve matters.


 

 I doubt many folks use multiple DAC's, isn't the idea to isolate the XMOS from the noisy host PC (I think when you say host - you mean the host PC USB power lines)? 
  
 Two things that I see that make the MXU8 vastly superior to the U12 having to do with much better PS filtering. 
 1) Better components - Talema transformer, real Japanese Murata's, Wima caps, much higher quality gold etched board.  The cost of Talema and Murata's alone are 5X more.
 2) Since these unit rely on the 'dirty' power from the wall socket, better power filtering: Double the PS filter caps, eight Analog Devices ADP150 linear regulator chips along with multiple smaller filter caps (7) for each chip, Linear LT1963 Fast Transient Response LDO Regulator, Wima U1J63 .01u bypass caps (very nice touch).  Just superior in many ways - much more expensive to build.
  
 http://www.linear.com/product/LT1963
 http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ADP150.pdf
  
  
 I ordered the Cyrstek 957 clocks - they're shipping the 24.576 clock now and are awaiting resupply on the 22.5792. $24.36 each from Mouser.  Good enough for Berkley good enough for me.


----------



## hgpsemaj

This one should be big enough, and cost RMB335 (i.e. excluding freight cost.)


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello Abartels,
> 
> If you prepare to spend US$22 on an aluminium enclosure, you might like to take a look on the following:
> 
> ...


 
  


hgpsemaj said:


> This one should be big enough, and cost RMB335 (i.e. excluding freight cost.)


 
  
  
 That one is much too big and ugly


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> I ordered mine before rb2013, but it is still on the way (currently in Leipzig, Zollamt).....
> The reason why I ordered it is its DSD output from RJ45.  MX-U8 should support DSD, as described in the store's Web site.


 
 Yes - that is the only difference as far a DSD output connection is concerned - better to have I2S implementation on DSD then over the SPDIF.  Most of the better DAC's these days have a I2S input.  So DSD over SPDIF coax is mostly a mute point.
  


> Originally Posted by *abartels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Btw the Melodious looks very promising and design is very easy to modify, sadly it doesn't do DSD otherwise i would consider bying one.
> The Tanley Audio looks very good, but, who designs this kind of superb device with USB input at it's front panel?!?!?!?!? It's a no go for me, sorry.


 
 The MXU8 is actually vastly superior on DSD to the U12.  The U12 is limited to DSD128.  The Melodious MXU8 can handle DSD64, DSD128 and most importantly DSD256.


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> That one is much too big and ugly


 
  
 Oh dear...if this is the case, you should go for this one:
  
 http://detail.1688.com/offer/38668561446.html?spm=0.0.0.0.mi41YQ
  
 Special length can be customised. And for costing wise, it is quite economical. And also, it offers various colours.


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> Both 'Melodious MXU8' and 'Tanley Audio Asynchronous USB interface' use Talema transformer and separate their transformer with the main circuit board, the following external linear power supply may assist U12 to regain those losing ground:
> 
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1-c.w4004-10606815601.9.ho7Xhu&id=44614422828


 

 That would be an improvement- but the already implemented linear regulated PS in the Melodious MXU8 is still better.
 The external recommended use the Linear LT1085, the MXU8 the Faster Transient Response LT1963.  It would still have better PS board filtering and regulation.
  
 http://www.linear.com/product/LT1085
 http://www.linear.com/product/LT1963


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> That would be an improvement- but the already implemented linear regulated PS in the Melodious MXU8 is still better.
> The external recommended use the Linear LT1085, the MXU8 the Faster Transient Response LT1963.  It would still have better PS board filtering and regulation.
> 
> http://www.linear.com/product/LT1085
> http://www.linear.com/product/LT1963


 
  
  
  

 in a river the waves behind drive on those before.
  
 I have never underestimated 'Melodious MXU8' and 'Tanley Audio Asynchronous USB interface'. I believe both of these USB products have set up a new standard at its price level.
  
 But, I must admit I am an U12 fans, I would like to collect those useful knowledge in this forum and to explore and upgrade my U12, until it reaches its potential limit.
  
 And, many thanks for the above mentioned links and informations.
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> in a river the waves behind drive on those before.
> 
> I have never underestimated 'Melodious MXU8' and 'Tanley Audio Asynchronous USB interface'. I believe both of these USB products have set up a new standard at its price level.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the link - as it's very useful info.  It's making me look closer at the design of the MXU8.
  
 Do you know what the large silver cover is for next to the LT1963?  Is that a heat sink of sorts?

  
 Cheers!


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for the link - as it's very useful info.  It's making me look closer at the design of the MXU8.
> 
> Do you know what the large silver cover is for next to the LT1963?  Is that a heat sink of sorts?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Please note, I've just contacted liu68861980 of Melodious/Taobao in respect of the silver parts next to LT1963, and he is off line for this moment (i.e. 23:42pm.). I believe he would contact me sometimes tomorrow.


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> Please note, I've just contacted liu68861980 of Melodious/Taobao in respect of the silver parts next to LT1963, and he is off line for this moment (i.e. 23:42pm.). I believe he would contact me sometimes tomorrow.


 

 Thanks!  I could go through the distributor I bought from but going directly is faster.


----------



## rb2013

Look at the MXU8's excellent ps design feeding the clocks - AVX Tantalum capacitors and 47u 6.3v filter caps for each clock.  Another whole layer of PS filtering and regulation before the clocks, after the heavy duty ps filtering and linear regulation that comes before.
  
 As the designer states:


> ```
> [color=rgb(33, 33, 33)][left] multi-level multi-group independent power supply, better than the market several hundred dollars XMOS linear power[/left][/color]
> ```


 
 No kidding!

  
 Compared to the U12


----------



## Yviena

Hi Looking for a new converter after my hiface 2 broke considering buying one of these MXU8 or the tanley audio any recommendations for which one is best?


----------



## rb2013

On the RCA and AES outputs  - notice the much higher quality, besides the Murata's.  Like the gold board contacts - much better SPDIF RCA and AES jack assemblies.

  
 Versus the U12:


----------



## hgpsemaj

yviena said:


> Hi Looking for a new converter after my hiface 2 broke considering buying one of these MXU8 or the tanley audio any recommendations for which one is best?


 
  
 When you are considering an item between the price of RMB1,080 to RMB2,900 (i.e  excluding freight cost.), you may consider DI-2014 of 'Audio-gd':
  
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DI2014/DI2014EN.htm
  
 Its price starts from RMB1,780, and offers many options at extra cost. For example, TCXO clock, R-core transformer & replace RJ45 by I2S.


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> I doubt many folks use multiple DAC's, isn't the idea to isolate the XMOS from the noisy host PC (I think when you say host - you mean the host PC USB power lines)?
> 
> Two things that I see that make the MXU8 vastly superior to the U12 having to do with much better PS filtering.
> 1) Better components - Talema transformer, real Japanese Murata's, Wima caps, much higher quality gold etched board.  The cost of Talema and Murata's alone are 5X more.
> ...


 
 The host is whanever that is supplying music data to the device, the PC connected to the MXU8 would be the host.
  
 The toroidal power transformer can work up to the MHz range of frequencies, so it is the worst choice, as it will couple the RF noise from the XMOS and the PC back into the powerline.
 The MXU8 has enough space to fit a RF power inlet filter.
  
 Berkeley uses a conventional EI laminated transformer, the airgaps in the laminations and EI sections make this lossy at the high frequencies and the RF inlet filter completes the job of keeping the RF noise to within the unit.


----------



## Yviena

hgpsemaj said:


> When you are considering an item between the price of RMB1,080 to RMB2,900 (i.e  excluding freight cost.), you may consider DI-2014 of 'Audio-gd':
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DI2014/DI2014EN.htm
> 
> Its price starts from RMB1,780, and offers many options at extra cost. For example, TCXO clock, R-core transformer & replace RJ45 by I2S.


 
 Hmm it looks nice read a bit about it. the usb 32 chip that is used sounds kinda unstable lots of posts about stability problems bluescreens and detection


----------



## conquerator2

yviena said:


> Hmm it looks nice read a bit about it. the usb 32 chip that is used sounds kinda unstable lots of posts about stability problems bluescreens and detection


 
 The newest firmware and drivers fixed those issues for most of the people, me included.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> The host is whanever that is supplying music data to the device, the PC connected to the MXU8 would be the host.
> 
> The toroidal power transformer can work up to the MHz range of frequencies, so it is the worst choice, as it will couple the RF noise from the XMOS and the PC back into the powerline.
> The MXU8 has enough space to fit a RF power inlet filter.
> ...


 

 Thanks for the info.  What would you suggest for a RF power inlet filter or as an alternate a EI laminated transformer.  It has printed on the board a pretty wide range AC 6V- 10V.  With the space inside and the seperate board it would be quite easy to replace.  Maybe an Rcore?  They have very good line noise rejection.
 Maybe both a different transformer and a RF inlet filter?  I believe the Berkely uses the very good Lundahl transformer.
  
 During the cap and clock upgrades - I will get rid of those power harnesses and just solder directly the power leads.


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for the info.  What would you suggest for a RF power inlet filter or as an alternate a EL laminated transformer.  It has printed on the board a pretty wide range AC 6V- 10V.  With the space inside and the seperate board it would be quite easy to replace.  Maybe an Rcore?  They have very good line noise rejection.
> Maybe both a different transformer and a RF inlet filter?  I believe the Berkely uses the very good Lundahl transformer.
> 
> During the cap and clock upgrades - I will get rid of those power harnesses and just solder directly the power leads.


 
  
  
 Hello rb2013,
  
 Does MXU8 consume +5V from the computer via USB cable? Please advise.


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello rb2013,
> 
> Does MXU8 consume +5V from the computer via USB cable? Please advise.


 

 No - an unlike the U12 -which I have to un-re-plug each time I reboot my computer (that internal switch has to get activated).  The MXU8 draws strictly from the AC ps - from what I can tell.  I would be careful and not 'hot' unplug  the USB or SPDIF cable best to turn off the PC and then unplug the MXU8.  It might screw up the receiver chip.
  
 The only downside so far is there is no ASIO driver - but KS is sounding amazing.  Works great with JPlay.  The Audio Control Panel was a breeze to install and gives full control over vol, bal, buffer size, etc...  No SpyTool though.


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for the info.  What would you suggest for a RF power inlet filter or as an alternate a EI laminated transformer.  It has printed on the board a pretty wide range AC 6V- 10V.  With the space inside and the seperate board it would be quite easy to replace.  Maybe an Rcore?  They have very good line noise rejection.
> Maybe both a different transformer and a RF inlet filter?  I believe the Berkely uses the very good Lundahl transformer.
> 
> During the cap and clock upgrades - I will get rid of those power harnesses and just solder directly the power leads.


 

 The RF power inlet filter is probably the easiest to do, select a 500mA or 1A unit. These are relatively easy to find on Mouser or Digikey.
 Below is a selection of 1A inlet filters, see which one fits.
 http://www.mouser.com/Connectors/Power-Connectors/AC-Power-Entry-Modules/_/N-axiqi?P=1z0x81f&Keyword=rf+filter&FS=True
  
 Berkeley uses Lundahl for the spdif transformers. The power transformer Berkeley uses is an EI laminated type  made by Tamura.
 Use a split bobbin transformer, it reduces the capacitive coupling between the primary and secondary transformers.
 Digikey and Mouser stock Tamura, you can also get R-Cores from Tamura but for this application the split bobbin EI type is cheapest and most effective.
 Other good brands are Hammond and Signal Corp
  
 Example of the Tamura EI split bobbin, note the distinct separation of the primary and secondary windings
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/3FS-516/MT2212-ND/285626
  
 Example of Tamura Semi-Toroidal similar to an R-Core, this is similar to the type Schiit uses in the Mjolnir Headphone amp
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/3FL16-700/MT1111-ND/98182
  
 Another option using a toroidal, is a custom wound transformer with an electrostatic shield.
 SumR in Toronto, Canada is low cost.
 Toroid Corp of Maryland, US  is superb if you don't mind the cost.
 I have bought from both of them. These have very low capacitive coupling between primary and secondary.
 The custom products from both companies are UL certified


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for the link - as it's very useful info.  It's making me look closer at the design of the MXU8.
> 
> Do you know what the large silver cover is for next to the LT1963?  Is that a heat sink of sorts?
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
 liu68861980 of Melodious/TaoBao forwarded me a reply in respect of the silver in colour parts today and claimed:
  
這裡是焊盤, 焊錫的, 元器件要焊錫焊上去的, 而且這裡可以起到散熱作用.
  
Mr. Google translates it as: 
  
 "Here is the pad, solder, solder components to be welded up, and where you can play a cooling effect".


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> That would be an improvement- but the already implemented linear regulated PS in the Melodious MXU8 is still better.
> The external recommended use the Linear LT1085, the MXU8 the Faster Transient Response LT1963.  It would still have better PS board filtering and regulation.
> 
> http://www.linear.com/product/LT1085
> http://www.linear.com/product/LT1963


 
  
 I am planning to use this one:
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/73-08uv-ultralow-noise-dac-power-supply-regulator-33v5v-1ax2.html
  
 Based on LT3042 with external NPN for 1.0A output, only 0.8 uV noise instead of 40uV noise for LT1963
  
 1 PCB has 2 outputs, 5V or 3,3V seperate selectable with jumper, ideal for powering the different stages within U12 or other equipment.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> On the RCA and AES outputs  - notice the much higher quality, besides the Murata's.  Like the gold board contacts - much better SPDIF RCA and AES jack assemblies.
> 
> 
> Versus the U12:


 
  
  
  
  
       FYI
  
  
 SPDIF RCA socket used in U12 is same version as used in MXU8.
 I wanted to replace this socket but it seems it's made of guilded copper instead of vastly used brass which is bad for use in audio.
 (most rca's base are made from brass which is at best 70% copper + 30% Zinc, or at worst 55% copper + 45% zinc).
  

  

  
 Those cost $15 a pair:
  
 http://diyhifishop.com/good-quality-one-pair-of-right-angle-copper-rca-socket-jack-with-p-218.html


----------



## hgpsemaj

Hello Abartels,
  
 I respect you are a DIY enthusiastic, and I really don't mean to distract your attention. But I just had a chat with the designer of the 'Linear Power Supply' and 'MX-U8' of Melodious Audio, about removal of the existing transformer from U12 and he informed me the following:
  
它的電源本來就有電源牛和自帶穩壓的
那樣沒用的，我的是有8組3.3V穩壓，全部獨立供電，這個怎麼改都做不到的
除非電路重新設計
您可以把U12的牛換TALEMA的試試看有沒有效果
然後把它的穩壓芯片換掉，換更好的
Norate 牛裝不了的，體積大了
USB32現在沒有考慮，我之後的DAC搭載的USB還是以XMOS為主
目前XMOS可以說相對成熟點
兼容性也很好
  
Mr. Google translates it as:
  
 It already has a power supply voltage of transformer and comes
 As useless, I have eight groups 3.3V regulator, all independent power supply, how change can not do this
 Unless the circuit redesign
 You can change TALEMA U12 transformer's try there is no effect
 Then put it in the regulator chip replaced, for better
 Norate transformer not installed, large volume
 USB32 do not consider, DAC after I drove to the XMOS USB or main
 It can be said at present is relatively mature point XMOS
 Compatibility is also very good
  
  
 I got a feeling we must take a great care. And, I don't know why, I just couldn't access www.diyinhk.com.
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello Abartels,
> 
> I respect you are a DIY enthusiastic, and I really don't mean to distract your attention. But I just had a chat with the designer of the 'Linear Power Supply' and 'MX-U8' of Melodious Audio, about removal of the existing transformer from U12 and he informed me the following:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi hgpsemaj,
  
 As the designer states, he designed 8 groups of 3,3V regulators. If we want to feed them with seperate external source it will be very difficult without redesigning pcb.
 He also says that changing transformer to talema has no positive effect on U12.
  
 I suppose he means that changing regulator chip will bring positive effect, thats why i wanted to try the external psu and connect it at output-pins pcb where LM317 is now connected.
 But, i'm not sure if this would be better than changing LM317 with DEXA regulator.
  
 And, to be honest, i would prefer to maintain the U12 as is, so without external psu for better mobility 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I think i will replace crystal for xmos with ndk, and changing LM317 with DEXA regulator, and then it ends for me i suppose.
  
 Yesterdayevening i had a friend coming over to listen, he was amazed, it plays with such an ease, unbelievable airy, U12 with new NDK's improves every day,,,,,
  
  
 I use U12 with chody's driver and lowest latency icw Server 2012R2 DualPC-Setup, AO 1.3 Jplay6 (700Hz - 0.01s - hibernate on) - kernelstreaming,
 connected to "old" modified CS4398 192kHz upsampling dac.
  
  
 Btw, can you find this enclosure for low price anywhere? (preferable without any holes in the backplate?
 I can buy it in France but will cost me about $85 including shipment, maybe you got a better source?

 Dimensions inside: 170mm X 300mm X 55mm
  
 Dimensions external: 190mm X 310mm X 85mm (including feet)


----------



## hgpsemaj

Hello Abartels,
  
 In fact he was trying to say 'Try the Talema and let see any effect'.
  
 I have tried load of DEXA regulators on other applicants before, please ensure add on heat sink accordingly. I consider replace those TXCO with NDK NZ2520SD is the best move so far, let's replace the rest of it for completeness.
  
 I will contact Melodious Audio on  next Monday, and ask him for any recommendation on good quality regulator. And, I shall contact you again for the above mentioned metal box.
  
 Well...I consider maintain U12 in one piece is a good idea.
  
  
 Regards,
  
 P.S. 'Melodious Audio' consider Talema is better than R-Core, and Norate is better than Talema.


----------



## hgpsemaj

For any person who interest on MX-U8, please ensure place your order on 'MX-U8 version 1.5' it is because version 1.5 offers their latest power supply design.
 Anyway, according to 'Melodious Audio' most of the version1.3 and 1.4 have been forwarded to Taiwan and Thailand.
  
 Version1.3


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> The RF power inlet filter is probably the easiest to do, select a 500mA or 1A unit. These are relatively easy to find on Mouser or Digikey.
> Below is a selection of 1A inlet filters, see which one fits.
> http://www.mouser.com/Connectors/Power-Connectors/AC-Power-Entry-Modules/_/N-axiqi?P=1z0x81f&Keyword=rf+filter&FS=True
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the suggestions - will look these choices over - most likely going with the Tamura EI split bobbin.  Will get a new thread up for the mods on the MXU8 today.
  


hgpsemaj said:


> liu68861980 of Melodious/TaoBao forwarded me a reply in respect of the silver in colour parts today and claimed:
> 
> 這裡是焊盤, 焊錫的, 元器件要焊錫焊上去的, 而且這裡可以起到散熱作用.
> 
> ...


 
 That is what I had guessed.  Thanks for checking on that.
  


abartels said:


> I am planning to use this one:
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/73-08uv-ultralow-noise-dac-power-supply-regulator-33v5v-1ax2.html
> 
> ...


 
 Nice unit.  The ripple rejection is much better, but the 1963 has a faster transient response time.
  


abartels said:


> FYI
> 
> 
> SPDIF RCA socket used in U12 is same version as used in MXU8.
> ...


 
 I agree all copper is better - the AES receptors look different.  Anyway the real Japanese Murata's look better made, as does the circuit board.
  


hgpsemaj said:


> For any person who interest on MX-U8, please ensure place your order on 'MX-U8 version 1.5' it is because version 1.5 offers their latest power supply design.
> Anyway, according to 'Melodious Audio' most of the version1.3 and 1.4 have been forwarded to Taiwan and Thailand.


 
 Thanks for the tip - the one I have now is a 1.5 and hoping the second one I ordered is as well.


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for the suggestions - will look these choices over - most likely going with the Tamura EI split bobbin.  Will get a new thread up for the mods on the MXU8 today.
> 
> That is what I had guessed.  Thanks for checking on that.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello Rb2013,
  
 The designer considers Norate outperforms Talema. He personally prefers and uses Norate Transformer.  However, for costing wise, and also, Norate do not manufacture 110v input, thus MX-U8 adopte Talema.
  
 You might place your second one order for Norate, if your local area offer 220V -240V input.


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello Rb2013,
> 
> The designer considers Norate outperforms Talema. He personally prefers and uses Norate Transformer.  However, for costing wise, and also, Norate do not manufacture 110v input, thus MX-U8 adopte Talema.
> 
> You might place your second one order for Norate, if your local area offer 220V -240V input.


 

 Thanks for the suggestion.  Unfortunately I'm 110-120V.  I believe Berkeley went with a EI design possibly for the reasons previously stated.


----------



## hgpsemaj

Well... MX-U8 is clearly leading the race by 5 factors:
  
 (i)    Supports DSD256.
 (ii)   It does NOT consume 5V from the computer via USB cable,
 (iii)  All round better grade components,
 (iv)  Power Supply separates with main circuit board,
 (v)   Spacious interior room is a treat for audiophile diy enthusiastic.
  
 And, it only costs RMB330 more. It is a tough race........man.


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> Well... MX-U8 is clearly leading the race by 5 factors:
> 
> (i)    Supports DSD256.
> (ii)   It does NOT consume 5V from the computer via USB cable,
> ...


 

 +1 Yes I agree.  So far SQ wise it's significantly better.  As I listen on two system (really three with my HPs), I replaced this one in my office system.  I listen 8 hours a day to that one and know the sound very well.  Heavily modded Class A integrated, Reference 2A Beryllium Dulcets, heavily modded R2R DAC, etc...
  
 The sound is 'deeper' and tonally richer, bass more extended.  And even smoother and musical then the already excellent Gustard U12.  Listening to Chopin - 'Etudes' right now - on piano tone superb!  Not a hint of glassiness on the upper registers, the lower are rich and deep.  Greater air as well. Not that the Gustard was bad, not at all, in fact it was very good.  It's just the MXU8 is better.
  
 It amazes me that a USB interface can make these kinds of improvements.  And the quality of some of these Chinese designs for so little money.
  
 I have about 50 hrs on the MXU8 - needs another 50.  It's opened up from NIB - I will move the 3M shielding over fro the Gustard to MXU8 today.  To see if that improves it.


----------



## hgpsemaj

The designer studied electronic, and has another full time job. He designs MX-U8 and Linear Power Supply for hobby.


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> And the quality of some of these Chinese designs for so little money.


 
  
 Shall we use the same approach to find a Chinese designs DAC?


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> Shall we use the same approach to find a Chinese designs DAC?


 

 I did find one - and with some extensive mods -sounding almost as good as my $7K APL DAC
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project


----------



## AKAI

Hi Guys, does any of these units (Gustard, Melodious, etc.) I2S output compatible with Wyred 4 Sound DAC2 I2S (like the empirical OR5 or the CIA Transient MKII)?
 I tried to order a Audio GD - DI 2014 - they asked for W4S DAC 2 - I2S configuration? I have a DAC 2 and want to get a converter that will work with W4S DAC2.
 On the Empirical Audio website, the OR5 shows
  
I2S output I2S is a more direct D/A interface than S/PDIF. It was developed by Philips when Philips and Sony created the CD format and the S/PDIF interface specification. I2S is a three or four-signal interface that includes clocks. This is the native interface for most D/A chips. Therefore if one can drive I2S directly and avoid S/PDIF translation, there is the opportunity to reduce jitter even more. Empirical Audio standard I2S interface uses 4 signals and 4 returns and the RJ-45 connector. It is compatible with I2S on several other manufacturers DACs, including Stello, Perpetual Technologies and Northstar, as well as our own Overdrive DAC.
I2S RJ-45 connector pinout Pin 1 - SCLK
 Pin 2 - SCLK return
 Pin 3 - SDATA
 Pin 4 - SDATA return
 Pin 5 - L/RCLK
 Pin 6 - L/RCLK return
 Pin 7 - MCLK
 Pin 8 - MCLK return
Specifications 

Download User Manual Inputs 
USB 2.0 from Mac or PC, up to 5 meter USB cable
+12VDC power – AC Adapter included, or optional Monolith LI Battery Power Supply DC connector is 2.5mm pin, center positive. 1 Amp @ 12VDC minimum required
 Outputs (all outputs are active) 
Isolated S/PDIF coaxial – 75 ohm Canare BNC jack
AES/EBU – XLR male
I2S on RJ-45, Empirical Audio standard (5V, optional 3.3V) output impedance is 120 ohms
I2S on HDMI - LVDS format, pin compatible with PSAudio and Wired for Sound DACs.
  
  
 Unfortunately, I am not technically able to tell whether this is what will work with W4S DAC 2?
  
 Any help would be appreciated.


----------



## rb2013

akai said:


> Hi Guys, does any of these units (Gustard, Melodious, etc.) I2S output compatible with Wyred 4 Sound DAC2 I2S (like the empirical OR5 or the CIA Transient MKII)?
> I tried to order a Audio GD - DI 2014 - they asked for W4S DAC 2 - I2S configuration? I have a DAC 2 and want to get a converter that will work with W4S DAC2.
> On the Empirical Audio website, the OR5 shows
> 
> ...


 

 The Gustard uses a HDMI I2S output jack, the Melodious the more common RJ-45.  As to whether it's wired with the same pin configuration - I don't know.  But imagine rewiring an RJ-45 cable couldn't be to hard if you know the Melodious pins.  Same I guess goes for the Gustard, but I think the Melodius would have a better shot at being correct.
  
 Maybe someone could contact the designer to get the MXU8 I2S pinouts.


----------



## hgpsemaj

It is too late now (i.e.2:05am), make it next Monday.


----------



## MINORISUKE

akai said:


> Hi Guys, does any of these units (Gustard, Melodious, etc.) I2S output compatible with Wyred 4 Sound DAC2 I2S (like the empirical OR5 or the CIA Transient MKII)?
> I tried to order a Audio GD - DI 2014 - they asked for W4S DAC 2 - I2S configuration? I have a DAC 2 and want to get a converter that will work with W4S DAC2.
> .....


 
  
 My motivation to order MX-U8 was to connect this with my DAC which has I2S/DSD input (RJ45).  Unfortunately, mine is still at customs in Leipzig, Germany, although I ordered it before rb2013.
  
 W4S has HDMI LVDS I2S input based on "PS Audio".  This is not a standard but many companies are adopting this pin assignment.
 U12 has also HDMI LVDI I2S output, but pin No.1/3 and 7/9 are inverted phase.  This means if U12 is connected to W4S, it is in reversed phase and with left/right channel swap.  If you use 2 pieces of the following, it is quite easy to adjust the phase.
http://www.delock.de/produkte/S_65168/merkmale.html
  
 MX-U8 has the following pin assignment:
 1: GND 2: MCLK 3: GND 4: SDATA 5: DSD 6: BCLK 7: DIN 8: LRCK
  
 Melodious instructs that 5 and 7 should not be connected.  It seems they only know a connection with ES9018-based DAC.  I have never heard of "DIN".  For non-ES9018 DACs, Melodious says they have no idea how to connect via I2S.
 I learned that the modern design of ES9018 DAC allowed an automatic detection of PCM/DSD without DSD/ON flag.  Note that not all DACs that use ES9018 can detect DSD automatically.
 My DAC is equivalent to L.K.S MH-DA002 with RJ45 I2S/DSD input.  I made a cable to connect MX-U8 with this DAC.
 To convert HDMI LVDS I2s to RJ45, a converter should be used, as can be seen in Audio-gd's home page (I2S kit).
  
 Attention should also be paid in terms of voltage: 5V or 3.3V.  As I am not familiar with electronics, I cannot tell you the details.
 To make an HDMI-->I2S converter seems to be tough.  I suggest if you have a DAC with RJ45 input, use MX-U8.  For DACs with HDMI LVDS I2S input, use U12 but pay attention to reversed phase for 1/3 and 7/9 pins.


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> My motivation to order MX-U8 was to connect this with my DAC which has I2S/DSD input (RJ45).  Unfortunately, mine is still at customs in Leipzig, Germany, although I ordered it before rb2013.
> 
> W4S has HDMI LVDS I2S input based on "PS Audio".  This is not a standard but many companies are adopting this pin assignment.
> U12 has also HDMI LVDI I2S output, but pin No.1/3 and 7/9 are inverted phase.  This means if U12 is connected to W4S, it is in reversed phase and with left/right channel swap.  If you use 2 pieces of the following, it is quite easy to adjust the phase.
> ...


 

 Thanks!
  
 PS The SPDIF may have more jitter but at least it's standard - it would be great if all the manufacters would just agree on a CAT5/HDMI std.


----------



## AKAI

Thanks Minorisuke for your response and your kind explanation. AudioGD DI 2014 has an option for HDMI I2S out in addition to the RJ45 (it costs $20 more). According to the email I received from them, the new DI 2014 comes with both RJ45 and HDMI I2S output. They want me to send them the I2S HDMI configuration of my W4S DAC2 to them so they can make sure that it will be done right, unfortunately I do not have access to the configuration. I sent an email to W4S but have received no response and I do not where else to go to find the information. Obviously, Channel Island and Empirical Audio both have the info but since I am not buying their unit I am reluctant to ask them.
  
 One of the Gustard U12 sellers on Ebay (Doukmall) said that the U12 will work with W4S DAC2 I2S, whether this is true or not I do not know. I am hoping that one of the U12 owners will chime in to either confirm or deny if they are compatible.
  
 Should you know where I can find the I2S configuration for W4S, please let me know.
  
 Thanks again and have a nice weekend.
  
 MP


----------



## MINORISUKE

akai said:


> .....
> They want me to send them the I2S HDMI configuration of my W4S DAC2 to them so they can make sure that it will be done right, unfortunately I do not have access to the configuration. I sent an email to W4S but have received no response and I do not where else to go to find the information.
> .....


 
 No reply from W4S sounds very unprofessional, as you are their genuine customer!
 I can show you "PS Audio suggestion" as well as URL of a blog of a Japanese user who owns W4S and U12.  Although he writes playback was successful, I wonder if his ears were good enough to distinguish reversed phase from normal as well as left/right channel swap.  To make sure, you need a guarantee that W4S really follows "PS Audio suggestion".  I only know this as a "rumour".
  
 1: DATA- 3: DATA+ 4; BCLK+ 6: BCLK- 7:LRCK- 9:LRCK+ 10: MCLK+ 12: MCLK-
  
 PS Audio says they have never defined "DSD/ON" flag, which is 15 in U12.
 Blog of a Japanese user: http://pc-audio.pw/?p=46 (use machine translation if necessary, no contact info about its author)
  
 As you may be already aware, there is a dedicated thread for Audio-gd USB products also here in Head-fi.  Of course it is your decision to select DI-2014 rather than U12.  As in the above-mentioned blog, U12 "works" (= sound comes out) with W4S.  To change phase is, as I wrote in my previous post, not difficult at all.


----------



## AKAI

Minorisuke, I found the data base for the I2S implementation for various manufacturers, courtesy of Jesus @ Sonore. I found his post on Computeraudiophile site. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFhNT0xWQnNVWTI1QjhTdXVGVThiYnc&usp=sharing

Very useful information. 


MP


----------



## rurika

The I2S from U12 works with W4S.
 Confirmed. (I use U12 and W4S)


----------



## MINORISUKE

rurika said:


> The I2S from U12 works with W4S.
> Confirmed. (I use U12 and W4S)


 

 As I wrote in my post #1127, I wonder if you can get correct phase and left/right channel in playback.


----------



## MINORISUKE

akai said:


> Minorisuke, I found the data base for the I2S implementation for various manufacturers, courtesy of Jesus @ Sonore. I found his post on Computeraudiophile site.
> .....


 

 Yes, I know this list.  This URL can be found in various places such as Computeraudiophile.


----------



## rurika

When feeding I2S from U12 the channel is swap.


----------



## MINORISUKE

rurika said:


> When feeding I2S from U12 the channel is swap.


 

 Thank you.  How about the playback phase?  This site may assist you to check it.
http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php


----------



## rurika

I will try tomorrow night. Right now is 5am.  Have to sleep 
  
 Anyway, I use headphone rig. Can it test with headphone ?


----------



## MINORISUKE

rurika said:


> I will try tomorrow night. Right now is 5am.  Have to sleep
> 
> Anyway, I use headphone rig. Can it test with headphone ?


 

 I sent you a wrong link.
http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_abspolarity.php
 They say "not to be confused with wiring speakers out of phase with each other".
 What you need to check is "absolute polarity".  As U12 and "PS Audio suggestion" are inverted in DATA (pin 1 & 3), you should hear inverted playback if you connect two machines with a normal (straight) HDMI cable.
 I hope somebody who has good knowledge about absolute polarity will help us here in this forum.


----------



## conquerator2

So right now we have Melodious, Tanley, DI and U12... hmmm, widening.


----------



## Yviena

Just bought the DI 2014 with all upgrades. Tho i think the MXU8 with modded clocks and upgraded transformer would be a better price to performance ratio
  
 btw does anyone know what clock is used in the DI with upgraded tcxo ? considering replacing the clock with crystek 957


----------



## AKAI

Hi Yviena, I am just about to order the DI 2014 as well, the upgrade and HDMI out added to the cost, I can buy two U12 for the price of one DI 2014. Your post seems to imply that MXU 8 with modded clocks is a better buy, unfortunately, I am not handy and won't be able to swap out the clocks.
  
 Are you not happy with the DI 2014? I confirmed with Kingwa that it works with my W4S DAC2 I2S, I am wondering if there is improvement in SQ using I2S.
  
 Thanks,
  
 MP


----------



## AKAI

minorisuke said:


> Yes, I know this list.  This URL can be found in various places such as Computeraudiophile.


 
  
 I forwarded the info on I2S to Kingwa, he said that the default HDMI I2S on DI 2014 matches the W4S DAC2, no modification needed.


----------



## hgpsemaj

According to the statistic records, the performance of 'NDK NZ2520SD' oscillator are so close to OXCO, why shall we still insist on 'Crystek 957'? Is it self-preference, or??


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> According to the statistic records, the performance of 'NDK NZ2520SD' oscillator are so close to OXCO, why shall we still insist on 'Crystek 957'? Is it self-preference, or??


 
 Well 1st I question what part of the audio band is most important.  (see the White paper links below on jitter using 10KHz and above, as the reference freq).  Above approx 7KHz the 957 is superior.  2nd the difficulty in adapting the clock for installation.  Third and most important if you research this topic deeply - you will find these kinds of graphs to be almost meaningless -as there is tremendous variations within production of these clocks.  I understand Cyrstek's QC and variances to be the smallest.  I also trust Digikey and Mouser over DIYinHK to deliver clocks that actually approach the reported specs (they have great reputations and deal with many manf that have the necessary test equipment to verify the actual clocks accuracy).  So if the clock that is delivered to you is off - a few hundred femtosecs (that's 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 of a second) - then the whole effort is a waist of time.
  
 http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/Clock-Division-WP.pdf
 http://www.sitime.com/support2/documents/AN10007-Jitter-and-measurement.pdf
  
 For example in the SiTime WP the measurement of 'Phase Jitter' section 2.4 was done over the
 frequencies of approx 15KHz to 12 MHz. 
  
 They explain this type of jitter:


> 2.4 Phase Jitter Phase noise is usually described as either a set of noise values at different frequency offsets (e.g., -60 dBc/Hz at 20KHz and -95 dBc/Hz at 10MHz), or as a continuous noise plot over a range of frequencies. Phase jitter is the integration of phase noises over a certain spectrum and expressed in seconds. In a square wave, most of the energies


 
 Using the frequencies of 20KHz and 10Mhz as examples.
  
 See Figure 6. 'Phase noise plot'.


> 2.4 Phase Jitter Phase noise is usually described as either a set of noise values at different frequency offsets (e.g., -60 dBc/Hz at 20KHz and -95 dBc/Hz at 10MHz), or as a continuous noise plot over a range of frequencies. Phase jitter is the integration of phase noises over a certain spectrum and expressed in seconds. In a square wave, most of the energies are located at the carrier frequency. However, some signal energies are “leaked-out” over a range of frequencies on both sides of the carrier. Phase jitter is the amount of phase noise energy contained between two offset frequencies relative to the carrier (fc). Figure 6 is an unfiltered phase noise plot and the shaded areas represent the phase jitter between frequencies f1 and f2


 
  
 In the Silicon Labs WP 'Clock Division with Jitter and Phase Noise Measurements'
  
 On page 6 they speak of this very LF rise in measured jitter for femtosecond clocks:


> The rate at which the jitter increases becomes more pronounced at the lowest output frequencies. Let’s examine the two sources of the increased RMS phase noise values: instrument noise floor and aliasing.


 
  


> *Instrument Noise Floor and Phase Noise Integration* As mentioned earlier, when measuring the phase noise of very low-jitter clocks at low clock frequencies, the instrument noise floor can become the limiting factor of a measurement. *At some point, you are measuring your equipment, not the device under test.* Even though the phase noise curves are all getting monotonically smaller as the clock frequency decreases, the RMS edge jitter remains almost constant because the phase noise integration process uses the clock period to scale the RMS jitter values. To illustrate how this occurs, let’s look at the process of phase noise integration to produce an RMS jitter value. Most modern phase noise equipment produces a file that that has two columns (typically a .CSV file). One of the two columns gives the frequency offset from the clock (or carrier) frequency in Hertz. The other column gives the phase noise values at that offset frequency in dBc/Hz. In this manner, the two columns contain data point pairs that describe the phase noise at a given offset from the clock frequency. The process of integration involves summing up the area under the curve for all of the frequency offset points after converting the dBc/Hz values to linear values in the following manner:


 
 The measurements that folks are pointing to as clear evidence the NDK clocks are superior are essentially meaningless due to these factors.  At the proper measurement frequencies the Crystek clocks are much better.
  
 Don't you think the clever engineers at Berkeley Audio Design would have used the NDK clocks vs the Crystek clocks if they were so vastly better in their $1800 flagship USB interface?
  
 Who else uses these clocks but DIYinHK in their own products?
  
 PS I also ordered some of the Vanguard TCXO .1ppm to try out - these have gotten good reviews and are an easy through the hole drop in replacement.


----------



## Yviena

akai said:


> Hi Yviena, I am just about to order the DI 2014 as well, the upgrade and HDMI out added to the cost, I can buy two U12 for the price of one DI 2014. Your post seems to imply that MXU 8 with modded clocks is a better buy, unfortunately, I am not handy and won't be able to swap out the clocks.
> 
> Are you not happy with the DI 2014? I confirmed with Kingwa that it works with my W4S DAC2 I2S, I am wondering if there is improvement in SQ using I2S.
> 
> ...


 
 No nothing wrong with the di it sounds excellent  much better than my previous transport. Just saying that if your handy with soldering the mxu8 will provide same or better performance for less cost.
  
 Running hdmi i2s is more stable than rj45 but i would still recommend running the shortest possible cable between them
  
 I like the Crystek 957 better it's easier to solder for hand and not so heat sensitive as the ndk. and as rb2013 said there is much less variances in the 957 than the ndk due to better QC


----------



## abartels

abartels said:


> *Listening impressions after replacing Gustard Crystals with NDK NZ2520SD's - 50 hours burn-in time*
> 
> 
> In one word: AMAZING
> ...


 
  
  
*Listening impressions after replacing Gustard Crystals with NDK NZ2520SD's - 120 hours burn-in time*
  
 The system "simply vanishes", i'm not listening to an audio-set anymore, just listening to music, that's the difference between standard clocks and the NDK's.
 All the details, musicality, air, easyness of reproduction, black around voices and instruments, very low noisefloor, it's just like listening to analogue equipment.
 In a few words: just best i ever heard.
  
 I would love to compare to MXU8, maybe i'll buy one in the future for comparison.
  
 Final conclusion on NDK clocks: they are worth every penny, and more,,,,,,!


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> I have a pair of CCHD-957s in my Breeze Audio XMOS USB Spdif.
> These are 22.xxxMHz and 24.xxxMHz crystals, which have lower phase noise than the ones running at 45MHz
> Overall better presentation especially on the clarity and transients (cymbals, hi-hats etc)
> 
> ...


 

 Going back and re-reading some of the older posts in regards to the Crystek clocks - interesting quote from above:


> I have a pair of CCHD-957s in my Breeze Audio XMOS USB Spdif.
> These are 22.xxxMHz and 24.xxxMHz crystals, which have lower phase noise than the ones running at 45MHz
> Overall better presentation especially on the clarity and transients (cymbals, hi-hats etc)


 
 I am glad to see the Melodious MXU8 uses the 22.xxxMHz and 24.xxxMHz crystals.  Versus the U12 which uses the 4X.XXXMHz crystals.


----------



## ccschua

has anyone replaced the LT 317A with the ultra low noise LDO ?
  
 I believe those 317A are things of the past for serious HIFI.


----------



## abartels

ccschua said:


> has anyone replaced the LT 317A with the ultra low noise LDO ?
> 
> I believe those 317A are things of the past for serious HIFI.


 
  
 Not yet, but i will replace it very soon with a Dexa 5V


----------



## AKAI

yviena said:


> No nothing wrong with the di it sounds excellent  much better than my previous transport. Just saying that if your handy with soldering the mxu8 will provide same or better performance for less cost.
> 
> Running hdmi i2s is more stable than rj45 but i would still recommend running the shortest possible cable between them
> 
> I like the Crystek 957 better it's easier to solder for hand and not so heat sensitive as the ndk. and as rb2013 said there is much less variances in the 957 than the ndk due to better QC


 

 Thanks for the reply, what OS are you using? I am planning to use it on Linux.


----------



## Yviena

akai said:


> Thanks for the reply, what OS are you using? I am planning to use it on Linux.


 
  
 Using the windows 10 test build atm, not noticed any difference in sound quality between OS when using ASIO/ALSA tho never tried it with high cpu usage so maybe i get dropouts.


----------



## hgpsemaj

+5V streaming down the usb cable and pollute the data.


----------



## genclaymore

Any one knows how does the gustard U12 compare to the peachtree Audio X1 usb convertor? I starting to get interested into this device. But I notice a couple of you guys modded yours, so i wondering is it worth it as it is out the box as i wouldn't have plans or the know how to even mod it. I also curious about that IIs connection since it look like a HDMi plug, does that mean you can also plug it into a Receiver or is it for something else,As I been seeing the IIs plug lately and I curious about it.


----------



## Sonic Defender

I'm certainly out of my element here so I hope to get some input and suggestions. I have a NAD M51 inbound. I know it isn't the best DAC out there, but I think it will perform well in my system and should be an upgrade from my Gungnir. I have always just gone right from my older Dell computer into the DAC with the nastiest, cheapest USB cable out there. I think I took it from a printer. Anyway, I have never experienced noise or dropouts through the USB, but I am wondering if an external USB converter would offer me any benefits. So my real question is, for anybody familiar with the USB receiver in the M51 is there an existing USB converter around $200-300 that I won't have to mod that should offer an audible improvement over the M51 receiver? I know I'm guilty of trying to solve a problem that doesn't exists, but I have always been intrigued by the USB converter notion. Cheers.


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> The Gustard uses a HDMI I2S output jack, the Melodious the more common RJ-45.  As to whether it's wired with the same pin configuration - I don't know.  But imagine rewiring an RJ-45 cable couldn't be to hard if you know the Melodious pins.  Same I guess goes for the Gustard, but I think the Melodius would have a better shot at being correct.
> 
> Maybe someone could contact the designer to get the MXU8 I2S pinouts.


 
  
 Please note, Mr. Liu Feng of 'Melodious Audio' forwarded us the following for reference today:
  

  
 Mr. Google translates them as:
  
 - From left to right, 5 and 7 do not need to take.
  
 - 5 and 7 to this development designed DAC, DAC, please do not take the other, with the cable when the 5 and 7 can not insert crystal head, or may lead to not work properly.


----------



## hgpsemaj

I asked Mr Liu Feng, How come MXU8 is NOT equipped with HDMI output?
  
 In his replied:  '這個又一個原因的，XMOS工程師和我交流了很多，她說XMOS本無差分輸出，用晶片轉換的，也不是實際意義上的差分，有點多此一舉.'
  
 Mr. Google translates it as :" Another reason for this, XMOS engineer and I communicate a lot, she said no XMOS this differential output, wafer conversion, nor is the actual meaning of the difference, a little superfluous".


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> According to the statistic records, the performance of 'NDK NZ2520SD' oscillator are so close to OXCO, why shall we still insist on 'Crystek 957'? Is it self-preference, or??


 
  
I just ordered 2 NDK Crystals for my upcoming MX-U8 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
Sadly i cant get the 24.000 mHz version for the XMOS itself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, Chrystek doesn't have this frequency either.


----------



## Sonic Defender

Nobody have any thoughts for my question? Hopefully somebody does. Cheers.


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> Please note, Mr. Liu Feng of 'Melodious Audio' forwarded us the following for reference today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 +1 Thanks! 
  


hgpsemaj said:


> I asked Mr Liu Feng, How come MXU8 is NOT equipped with HDMI output?
> 
> In his replied:  '這個又一個原因的，XMOS工程師和我交流了很多，她說XMOS本無差分輸出，用晶片轉換的，也不是實際意義上的差分，有點多此一舉.'
> 
> Mr. Google translates it as :" Another reason for this, XMOS engineer and I communicate a lot, she said no XMOS this differential output, wafer conversion, nor is the actual meaning of the difference, a little superfluous".


 






  I guess he's saying it doesn't matter
  


abartels said:


> I just ordered 2 NDK Crystals for my upcoming MX-U8
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I believe Vanguard does as a through the whole drop in.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vanguard-TCXO-0-1ppm-24-000MHz-Ultra-precision-Golden-Oscillator-/181239427092?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a32b63014


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> +1 Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Most likely.
 But, it doesn't convince me at all, and I shall communicate with him later for further information.


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> Most likely.
> But, it doesn't convince me at all, and I shall communicate with him later for further information.


 

 I wounder if you ask him if he tests the clocks he buys for timing accuracy and jitter before installing? 
  
 My second MXU8 is on the way and the Crystek clocks and FC caps are in - so will begin the mods once the 2nd one arrives.


----------



## rb2013

I noticed an ad for these Russ Andrews HiFi Fuses which are very expensive - but the DeoxiT GxMD Gold treatment caught my eye.  I have a bottle and use it on all connectors and tube pins. http://www.russandrews.com/product-Russ-Andrews-13A-SuperFuse-1016.htm
  


> SuperFuses™ feature a specially-developed version of our
> 
> 
> 
> unique Super Burn In process. The end caps are hand-polished and treated with DeoxIT™ contact enhancer and finally, the SuperFuses are supplied with a DeoxIT™ Gold wipe for treatment just before fitting.


 
  
 http://www.amazon.com/DeoxITGOLD-Liquid-Brush-Applicator-Conditioner/dp/B0015A7CYG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1428862064&sr=8-1&keywords=deoxit+gold
  
  
  
  
  
 Tried some on the MXU8 fuse and was pleasantly surprised - then replaced the 500ma with a 1amp FB and was also pleasantly surprised.
  
 I learned this trick from noted audio engineer Steve Nugent (Empirical Audio) in his post on recommended mods of the Lyr HP amp:


> 7) Replace the fuse with a fast-blo solid wire type with a higher rating.  I used to do this on all of the Benchmark DAC-1s that I used to mod.  Makes a big difference in dynamics.


 
 The fuse access on the MXU8 is better then the U12 - it's external on the AC receptacle vs internal.
  
 NOTE: Use at your own risk!


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> I wounder if you ask him if he tests the clocks he buys for timing accuracy and jitter before installing?
> 
> My second MXU8 is on the way and the Crystek clocks and FC caps are in - so will begin the mods once the 2nd one arrives.


 
  
 Hello Rb2013,
  
 I respect you are an audiophile diy enthusiastic, and enjoy to handle all these replacement jobs by yourself.
 Mr. Liu Feng of 'Melodious Audio' is a person so eager to assist his client. Say, for certain replacement and modification, if you would like these are handled by factory fixing and fitting. Please let me know, I may arrange 'Melodious Audio' to carry out those jobs at your request.
  
 P.S. Yes, I will ask him about the QC for those clocks tomorrow.


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello Rb2013,
> 
> I respect you are an audiophile diy enthusiastic, and like to handle all these replacement jobs by yourself.
> Mr. Liu Feng of 'Melodious Audio' is a person so eager to assist his client. Say, for certain replacement and modification, if you would like these are handled by factory fixing and fitting. Please let me know, I may arrange 'Melodious Audio' to carry out those jobs at your request.


 

 Thank you!  I already have the parts and can easily handle these simple mods - and reverse them if the sound is not improved.
  
 But for other's not so well versed in weilding a soldering iron - what would he charge and how long would it take?  Could make the same model with an external clock connection feature like the Tanley?


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> Thank you!  I already have the parts and can easily handle these simple mods - and reverse them if the sound is not improved.
> 
> But for other's not so well versed in weilding a soldering iron - what would he charge and how long would it take?  Could make the same model with an external clock connection feature like the Tanley?


 
  
 Please keep my 'thread #1160' at your disposal.


----------



## stuartmc

If he would install a standard HDMI output for I2S, I'd buy one right now. I have the Gustard U12 and X12 and won't part with the HDMI connection.


----------



## hgpsemaj

stuartmc said:


> If he would install a standard HDMI output for I2S, I'd buy one right now. I have the Gustard U12 and X12 and won't part with the HDMI connection.


 
 Surely, HDMI is NOT on their forth coming agenda.


----------



## MINORISUKE

rb2013 said:


> .....
> Tried some on the MXU8 fuse and was pleasantly surprised - then replaced the 500ma with a 1amp FB and was also pleasantly surprised.
> .....


 
 I replaced the fuse for U12 with PADIS 0.5A, which cost more than 15% of U12 but I had already owned, and recognise a slight improvement.
 This PADIS will be taken out from U12 when my MX-U8 arrives.
 As I asked a Chinese Hi-Fi manufacturer about fuse in the past, their suggestion was to use one with low current tolerance.  They said, the lower, the better.
 Is this true?


----------



## conquerator2

sonic defender said:


> Nobody have any thoughts for my question? Hopefully somebody does. Cheers.




Purrin said it has a very good USB,didn't he?
I would not bother unless you wanna smoothen it up a bit.
That is what the U12 does for me


----------



## Sonic Defender

conquerator2 said:


> Purrin said it has a very good USB,didn't he?
> I would not bother unless you wanna smoothen it up a bit.
> That is what the U12 does for me


 

 Thanks brother, it seems this has turned into a technical modding thread and if your not doing that your invisible here. Glad you came around. Cheers.


----------



## conquerator2

sonic defender said:


> Thanks brother, it seems this has turned into a technical modding thread and if your not doing that your invisible here. Glad you came around. Cheers.


 
 Sure,  I look after my own 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 And I agree.... I've learned to disregard most mods/enhancements to a point... YMMV.


----------



## hgpsemaj

I used to be a 'Plug & Play' user. But, I must admit 'mods has more fun'.


----------



## kugino

sonic defender said:


> I'm certainly out of my element here so I hope to get some input and suggestions. I have a NAD M51 inbound. I know it isn't the best DAC out there, but I think it will perform well in my system and should be an upgrade from my Gungnir. I have always just gone right from my older Dell computer into the DAC with the nastiest, cheapest USB cable out there. I think I took it from a printer. Anyway, I have never experienced noise or dropouts through the USB, but I am wondering if an external USB converter would offer me any benefits. So my real question is, for anybody familiar with the USB receiver in the M51 is there an existing USB converter around $200-300 that I won't have to mod that should offer an audible improvement over the M51 receiver? I know I'm guilty of trying to solve a problem that doesn't exists, but I have always been intrigued by the USB converter notion. Cheers.


I'm actually close to jumping on an M51 that has been offered to me as I've recently sold all my sources and need something fast. I do have an adcom gda700 coming in next week to see how older r2r chips sound, which is why I have a U12. but I doubt that I'd used the U12 with the M51 as the M51 has, from what I've read, a good USB implementation. but, I can't say for sure as I've never tested it myself.


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> I replaced the fuse for U12 with PADIS 0.5A, which cost more than 15% of U12 but I had already owned, and recognise a slight improvement.
> This PADIS will be taken out from U12 when my MX-U8 arrives.
> As I asked a Chinese Hi-Fi manufacturer about fuse in the past, their suggestion was to use one with low current tolerance.  They said, the lower, the better.
> Is this true?


 

 Well maybe for protection but not SQ


----------



## rb2013

sonic defender said:


> Thanks brother, it seems this has turned into a technical modding thread and if your not doing that your invisible here. Glad you came around. Cheers.


 

 Would have replyied - if I had any experience with a NAD M51 DAC.  Generally you are going to get much better sound quality then the cheaper board built in.
  
 If you have a few photos and some information on what's in the M51 for USB conversion, like converter chip, clocks, etc..  That would be helpful.
  
 You can't expect us to do the basic research for you - to answer your question.


----------



## kugino

just another data point for the M51 owners...
from a post on computeraudiophile:

"I have been using an M51 for 2 years now, I got one of the early ones and have been using it as a preamp. A couple of points I can comment on:

USB interface: is not that great. Using a USB power conditioner helps some, using a really good SPDIF converter makes a huge difference and takes it to a much higher level. I agree with what others have said that the AES input is the best. I compared two good SPDIF converters, the (coaxial) Audiophilleo 2 +PP and the (AES) yellowtec puc2 with ifi power supply and found the yellowtec to outperform the AP2 by a sound margin. Whether the Yellowtec is generally superior to the AP2 I cannot say, but with the M51 the Yellowtec prevailed. I think the M50 player or a Berkeley Alpha USB would probably be even stronger

If you are looking to get an M51 for computer audio I think you should really consider a good SPDIF interface as part of the admission price."

of course, YMMV


----------



## Sonic Defender

rb2013 said:


> Would have replyied - if I had any experience with a NAD M51 DAC.  Generally you are going to get much better sound quality then the cheaper board built in.
> 
> If you have a few photos and some information on what's in the M51 for USB conversion, like converter chip, clocks, etc..  That would be helpful.
> 
> You can't expect us to do the basic research for you - to answer your question.


 

 I hear you, I was being impatient for sure. Now I wasn't asking you to do basic research, but I get what your saying. Cheers.


----------



## Sonic Defender

kugino said:


> just another data point for the M51 owners...
> from a post on computeraudiophile:
> 
> "I have been using an M51 for 2 years now, I got one of the early ones and have been using it as a preamp. A couple of points I can comment on:
> ...


 

 Thanks, will start looking into these, but I do prefer to use the balanced input on my amp. Edit: just noticed the XLR output. At first I missed that on the PUC2. Not a good past few posts for me!


----------



## rb2013

Interesting  - doing some research on the source of the clocks in the Melodious MXU8 marked JYEC .1ppm looking for a pinout diagram. 
  

  
 Came upon the same clocks pictured on the Audio-gd website.  But I think he is referencing replacing the JYEC clocks with Audio-gd clocks.  Or he is rebranding them
 From a Headfi post


> 1/28/11 at 5:29am
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 But also very important for burn in on any new USB interface or DAC
 From the Audio-gd website:


> Please note:
> If you take the clock for upgrade, before sound compare, please burn in it. The clock burn in not myth, it is real effect the performance of the clock.
> The clock only active while setting at upsampling output.


 
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/USBface/Clock.htm
  
 I'm assuming these all have a standard pinout configuration - the Vanguard and Crystek follow the same layout

  
  
 For JYEC

```
[color=rgb(33, 33, 33)][left] Shenzhen Jing Yi Electronics Co., Ltd[/left][/color]
```
 http://cart100.com/Product/3055539004/

  
 Also came across a new kind of clock called - "fully digital temperature compensated crystal oscillator"(DTCXO)​ 
  
 http://www.tradeeasy.com/supplier/602673/selling-leads/996728/tcxo-ocxo-oscillator-crystal.html
  
 PS Found the gold colored ones Melodious is using:
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=3055539004


----------



## rb2013

Looking at all of this very close it looks like the Vanguard and the JYEC are the same clocks (and likely the Gustard U12's as well OEM'd and rebranded).  Same for Audio-gd?
  
 With stated Phase noise at 1KHz exactly the same at 125dB
  
 The Crystek is approx 150dB at 1KHz.  So it looks like it would be quite a bit better then the standard clocks in these units.  Again assuming they were tested with similar test equipment and procedures.
  
 I do have a question on the voltage - the Vanguard's say 5VDC/3.3VDC. So I assume they can operate at either voltage
 The JYEC's say 5VDC
 The Crystek 3.3 VDC
 the NDK 3.3 VDC
  
 So I'm not sure if the voltage switches automatically to the clock and what the voltage is in the MXU8.  I assume the U12 is 3.3VDC as the NDK's seem to work there.  But not 100% sure the Crystek's or NDK's would work where the JYEC's are installed.
  
 PS Nice!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I just found the answer to my question it looks like the Melodius MXU8 uses 3.3VDC to feed the clocks (see the 3V3 printed on the top of the board where each clocks ps filtering is).  Looks like the Crystek's will work and the NDK's


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Looking at all of this very close it looks like the Vanguard and the JYEC are the same clocks (and likely the Gustard U12's as well OEM'd and rebranded).  Same for Audio-gd?
> 
> With stated Phase noise at 1KHz exactly the same at 125dB
> 
> ...


 
  
 About Clock Voltage:
  
 See the readings on the PCB near the regulators, it says: 3V3 which is 3,3Volts. So we are good.
  
  
 About Vanguard, Gustard and other "goldplated" clocks: I do indeed also think they come from one manufacturer, rebranded (it's only a sticker on those crystals, i removed the sticker when removing the 3M stuff from the Gustard's)
  
 About pin-out of Crystals: Those pin-outs are common, so, counterclockwise it's always: 1-NC or Standby  7- GND 8- Output 14- VCC  for DIP14 models For DIP8 models it's 1-NC or Standby  4- GND 5- Output 8- VCC
 and, for NDK its same, first "pin" NC or standby, second "pin" GND, third "pin" Output, fourth "pin" VCC, all counterclockwise and counted from pin-1 which is lower-left corner, seen from above!!
  
 About fuses (within devices with a low power consumption like DAC-DDC):
  
 I always wait a few weeks if device works properly, after that i simply crosswire the fuse with a thick copper wire (soldered at pcb), that's sounding best!!
 And, if device is going up in smoke because there's no fuse in it, then that's a bad thing, and i have to purchase a new one, but fuse in house prohibits real nasty things to happen,,,
  
  
 Just my 2 cents


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> About fuses (within devices with a low power consumption like DAC-DDC):
> 
> I always wait a few weeks if device works properly, after that i simply crosswire the fuse with a thick copper wire (soldered at pcb), that's sounding best!!
> And, if device is going up in smoke because there's no fuse in it, then that's a bad thing, and i have to purchase a new one, but fuse in house prohibits real nasty things to happen,,,


 
 I used to use 'Infinity fuse' (i.e. Silver series.). I feel the marginal return is immaterial. So, I remove the entire fuse box on CD/DAC/Preamp, and only leave those fuses for vintage power amps. The audio quality is well acceptable.


----------



## MINORISUKE

Melodious MX-U8: worldwide shipping started
http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/melodious-audio-mx-u8-ultimate-edition-32bit-384khz-dsd-xmos-usb-digital-audio-interface.html


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> Melodious MX-U8: worldwide shipping started
> http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/melodious-audio-mx-u8-ultimate-edition-32bit-384khz-dsd-xmos-usb-digital-audio-interface.html


 

 +1 Nice!


----------



## rb2013

Here is another clocking path that could be tried for the MXU8 - use the Audio-GD JZ1 board and upgrade it's Clock to Crystek
  

  
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/diy/JZ1/JZEN.htm
  


> *JZ-1 specs (TCXO version)*
> Built in Hi-End Class A power Supply and low jitter clock TCXO
> Power Requirement: +8V to +20V DC
> Power Draw: 60mA
> ...


 
 Now upgrade this boards clock to a Crystek and feed it a 12V battery DC or seperate linear DC PS with heavy filtering.
  
 This way the audio clocks are completely power isolated from the USB board and clocking.
  
 They come in three types - so two would be needed.  a 22.579 MHz and a 24.576 MHz.  I have ordered a type 3 (*Type 3: *
(Output 24.576MHz / 12.288MHz / 8.189MHz / 6.144MHz at same time.) for my R2R DAC Mod project.  But could try it in the MXU8
  
 PS This might be a good high quality power supply http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/72-lt3032-low-noise-dac-power-supply-linear-regulator-dual-12v-150max2.html
  
 For a battery supply one of these would be plenty and should last a long time before needing charging http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tenergy-9V-500mAh-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Battery-/390599538164?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5af18bf5f4


----------



## rb2013

yviena said:


> Just bought the DI 2014 with all upgrades. Tho i think the MXU8 with modded clocks and upgraded transformer would be a better price to performance ratio
> 
> btw does anyone know what clock is used in the DI with upgraded tcxo ? considering replacing the clock with crystek 957


 

 See my recent posts - YES!


----------



## Sonic Defender

rb2013 said:


> See my recent posts - YES!


 

 Not at all trying to be an ass, but why are you all so keen on these type of mods? Are there really significant audible sonic benefits or are you a group of electrical engineers/enthusiasts who simple love doing this simply because you can? I really don't mean that question in a challenging tone, I'm just very curious what drives you to do this. Cheers.


----------



## stuartmc

sonic defender said:


> Not at all trying to be an ass, but why are you all so keen on these type of mods? Are there really significant audible sonic benefits or are you a group of electrical engineers/enthusiasts who simple love doing this simply because you can? I really don't mean that question in a challenging tone, I'm just very curious what drives you to do this. Cheers.


 
 This is a worthy question and I don't think anyone should be offended.  I commented on this subject on another Gustard thread where I was doing some mods/tweaks myself  ---
  
*I'm definitely a tweak-a-holic. Everything I own gets fiddled with - cars, bikes, phones, the works. I find it to be particularly gratifying with audio gear. I think we're all frustrated musicians and we want to be part of the musical process in some way. By altering the sound, whether it be by cables, tube rolling, or any other hands on tweaks, we connect with the music on a much deeper level. We might not be the musician or conductor, but in a real, tangible way, we are like the studio engineer sitting at the mixing board getting the sound "just right." My late friend Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenburg used to speak of this as a deep, primitive connection that is hardwired into all of us. Harvey called it "tuning your bow." His take was focused on the gear itself, rather than the music, speaking of being connected to it with the hands on tweaking and transforming the gear into a totem. Either way you look at it, the experience is elevated when you mix the sound, or tune your bow.*


----------



## Sonic Defender

stuartmc said:


> This is a worthy question and I don't think anyone should be offended.  I commented on this subject on another Gustard thread where I was doing some mods/tweaks myself  ---
> 
> *I'm definitely a tweak-a-holic. Everything I own gets fiddled with - cars, bikes, phones, the works. I find it to be particularly gratifying with audio gear. I think we're all frustrated musicians and we want to be part of the musical process in some way. By altering the sound, whether it be by cables, tube rolling, or any other hands on tweaks, we connect with the music on a much deeper level. We might not be the musician or conductor, but in a real, tangible way, we are like the studio engineer sitting at the mixing board getting the sound "just right." My late friend Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenburg used to speak of this as a deep, primitive connection that is hardwired into all of us. Harvey called it "tuning your bow." His take was focused on the gear itself, rather than the music, speaking of being connected to it with the hands on tweaking and transforming the gear into a totem. Either way you look at it, the experience is elevated when you mix the sound, or tune your bow.*


 

 Very well put, and I can absolutely understand what you mean by trying to engage and shape what it is you hear, Cheers.


----------



## Radiohead99

I'm one of those guys who are not handy with tweaking/soldering PCB. Hence I'm more interested in stock performance. I have the Gustard. Its still breaking in. It is very very good. Clearly better than the amanero USB input I've on my Lampizator level 7 dac. I've not compared to any other USB to SPDIF converter. But I know a guy who preferred going direct to amanero on Lampi dac compare to Audiophilleo with pure power. To my ears - Gustard sounds more analog, smoother and relaxed. There's some slight harshness going direct to amanero USB which is mostly removed when I'm using the Gustard. Very impressive.
  
 However, there's no doubt judging by the feedback here that Melodious is better than Gustard but at a significant price increase. I paid $140 shipped for my Gustard. And the Melodious is $240. So, IMO given the price Gustard has a very high value. Buying a Melodious and some clock upgrade would be the biggest bang for the buck - which I can't do.
  
 I'm also very interested in the Tanly audio USB to SPDIF converter that someone has posted here before. It seems it can compete with the Berkeley Alpha USB ($2k). If that is true, it'd be a stellar bargain given the price would be around $600. Anyone considering Tanly Audio converter? I'm planning to get something state of the art for a reasonable price and be done with upgrading for a while. Looks very promising:
  
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Asynchronous-USB-interface-DoP-over-SPDIF-DSD-I2S-over-HDMI-LVDS-SDIF-3-XMOS/1982763625.html?spm=0.0.0.0.LrzqyZ


----------



## rb2013

sonic defender said:


> Not at all trying to be an ass, but why are you all so keen on these type of mods? Are there really significant audible sonic benefits or are you a group of electrical engineers/enthusiasts who simple love doing this simply because you can? I really don't mean that question in a challenging tone, I'm just very curious what drives you to do this. Cheers.


 

 A very good question - on offense taken.  Speaking only for me - I have been in this hobby (audio) intensely 25 yrs and have had all kinds of equipment - some insanely expensive.  Trust me when I say we are IN the audio golden age - right now.  So much amazing stuff coming from Asia right now at incredible prices. 
  
 But many times this very good equipment can be taken to an even higher level by some simple component replacements with better quality parts.  The SQ is near sota at ridiculously cheap cost.  Look at his Melodious MXU8 - price out the components.  For $230 with shipping not much of a markup.  Very smart engineering design.  With another $100 can be taken very near sota .
  
 I.m continually amazed at what a difference a seemingly innocent piece of gear like a USB interface makes.  At the beginning of the thread I list all the ones I've had - the U12 and especially the MXU8 take that up more then a few notches in sound quality.  And I'm feeding some really good DACs with a very refined PC server.  I mean a relaxed and musical presentation that makes hours of listening a shear joy!
  
 Try a U12 and see what I mean - and jump past all the other gear I had to buy and sell to get here.
  
 So encouraged by this success - why not spend a little more - and if your have the expertise try a few mods. I've had other great success with other simple cap changes in my DAC mod project.  I started this thread hoping to have it become what it is - lots of smart people -with mostly excellent ideas and information.  Can't thank the poster for the Melodious post enough.
  
 Now if DHL would just get here with the second MXU8 - for my main music listening room - tonight could be quite fun!


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> This is a worthy question and I don't think anyone should be offended.  I commented on this subject on another Gustard thread where I was doing some mods/tweaks myself  ---
> 
> *I'm definitely a tweak-a-holic. Everything I own gets fiddled with - cars, bikes, phones, the works. I find it to be particularly gratifying with audio gear. I think we're all frustrated musicians and we want to be part of the musical process in some way. By altering the sound, whether it be by cables, tube rolling, or any other hands on tweaks, we connect with the music on a much deeper level. We might not be the musician or conductor, but in a real, tangible way, we are like the studio engineer sitting at the mixing board getting the sound "just right." My late friend Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenburg used to speak of this as a deep, primitive connection that is hardwired into all of us. Harvey called it "tuning your bow." His take was focused on the gear itself, rather than the music, speaking of being connected to it with the hands on tweaking and transforming the gear into a totem. Either way you look at it, the experience is elevated when you mix the sound, or tune your bow.*


 
 You knew Harvey 'Gizmo'!  Great guy - would read some fun stories about him in the early 'Absolute Sound'  had some interesting OTL amp designs.  A real champ of a fellow.
  


radiohead99 said:


> I'm one of those guys who are not handy with tweaking/soldering PCB. Hence I'm more interested in stock performance. I have the Gustard. Its still breaking in. It is very very good. Clearly better than the amanero USB input I've on my Lampizator level 7 dac. I've not compared to any other USB to SPDIF converter. But I know a guy who preferred going direct to amanero on Lampi dac compare to Audiophilleo with pure power. To my ears - Gustard sounds more analog, smoother and relaxed. There's some slight harshness going direct to amanero USB which is mostly removed when I'm using the Gustard. Very impressive.
> 
> However, there's no doubt judging by the feedback here that Melodious is better than Gustard but at a significant price increase. I paid $140 shipped for my Gustard. And the Melodious is $240. So, IMO given the price Gustard has a very high value. Buying a Melodious and some clock upgrade would be the biggest bang for the buck - which I can't do.
> 
> ...


 
 Lamp 7 - nice DAC.  The Melodious with it's stock clocks is worth the price difference over the Gustard - How much better with $50 worth of Crysteks or NDKs?  We'll see.  I super happy right now with the stock ones. 
  
 I don't think the Tanley is a $600 BADA Alpha.  The Alpha has some special design aspects (see the CA shootout). The Tanley does have some good aspects -  like the ability to run an external clock.  So is the Tanley worth 2X+ a MXU8?  I don't know.  But I'd rather see how far a MXU8 could be taken first - for a $150-$200 (Better EI trans or RF filter, better caps, better clocks).


----------



## Jamiee

minorisuke said:


> Melodious MX-U8: worldwide shipping started
> http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/melodious-audio-mx-u8-ultimate-edition-32bit-384khz-dsd-xmos-usb-digital-audio-interface.html


 
  
 Just ordered one in silver, thank you!


----------



## rb2013

Reading more on the Tanley -  they do have an interesting design.  In lieu of the Pulse or Murata isolation transformers they use a FPGA and isolation before the XMOS.
  
 As they say:

```
[color=rgb(33, 33, 33)][left] This is a USB interface to electrical isolation , the purpose is to isolate the noise transmitted over the computer via the USB cable , such as USB isolation chip on an input terminal , for USB2.0 , it might affect the bandwidth ; chip discharge isolation will bring the jitter at the output , so the use of FPGA, and isolation between the XMOS chip on the FPGA for signal isolation , and then apply the established multiple FPGA FIFO data buffer , with accurate local clock output data , in order to achieve the purpose of reduce jitter .[/left][/color]
```
  
  
 That is different then the Alpha - which uses very high quality isolation transformers

  
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/437-berkeley-audio-design-alpha-usb-review/


> Berkeley' uses its proprietary isolation techniques that are said to provide much better performance than traditional opto-isolation methods while keeping computer generated noise away from the sensitive output clocking and driver circuitry. Powering the audio output side of the Alpha​USBis a low noise linear power supply. *This noise filtered linear supply feeds clean power to the oscillators and the digital audio output circuitry.*​


 
    
 From the Compuer Audio 15 USB shootout:
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/
  
 Quote:


> The whole converter is divided into two parts - 'dirty' part (on the right) fed from the​USBpower, containing the XMOS​USBreceiver chip, and 'clean' part, fed from the onboard linear​PSU, containing the clocks and SPDIF out.​


 
  



> The 'dirty' and 'clean' sides are both isolated by a chip. The lettering on the chip was removed, but I’m pretty sure this is the ADuM* chip, isolating the I2S lines between the XMOS chip and the SPDIF output.​​ ​ _*The ADuM chips are digital isolators based on the Analog Devices, Inc., iCoupler® technology. Combining high speed CMOS and monolithic transformer technologies, these isolation components provide outstanding performance characteristics superior to alternatives, such as optocouplers.​_​


 
  

  
  
 Additonal info on cable length:
  
 The cable company I have bought two spdif rca silver ref cables says that 1.5m is optimal to min echo and wave reflection as well.
 Quote:


> In addition to recommending the balanced​AESoutput Berkeley Audio Design also recommends using a 1.5 meter​AEScable and​USBcable when possible. This recommendation has everything to do with reflected versus original digital signal energy caused by return loss. A cable and its connectors is not a perfect transmission line as it suffers from reflected energy. When a 1.5 meter cable, 3 meters round trip internally, is used this reflected energy is delayed enough to minimize confusion with the original signal at the data receiver. These may be small or insignificant details to some, but are important and critical details for those seeking the highest level audio reproduction.​


----------



## Radiohead99

Very good info! Only if I could hear some feedback from anyone who have used it.


----------



## Sonic Defender

just read a bunch of those pages on CAP, man does it get very granular and hyper-technical. Can anybody really hear these differences, I mean reliably in blind listening tests with enough trials. It seems some people are talking about very small, measurable levels of jitter and are posting like these are incredibly audible and impactful on the sound. I certainly can't say yes or no as I lack the experience or technical knowledge, but can these very small differences really be that audible?  
  
 I mean the posters at CAP and I don't mean to imply they are wrong, I'm just very curious if people can actually here small differences in jitter? I don't know as I have no way of testing, I'm really interested in the impact of jitter and at what point it becomes audible.


----------



## rb2013

radiohead99 said:


> Very good info! Only if I could hear some feedback from anyone who have used it.


 

 Well here was their sound results:


> Sound wise – this is by far the best sounding​USB/SPDIF converter I tried, better than the dCS Scarlatti transport.​​ ​ The other top converters were very, very good, but still not perfect.​​ ​ M2Tech stack for example, has a very distinctive sound. I would describe it as ethereal - great resolution, smoothness and vast soundstaging, but at the same time it is a bit light on its feet, lacking some substance and midrange texture.​​ ​ ORT5 on the other hand sounds warmer, fuller with more texture, but at the same time, lacks the top end resolution and extension that Evo (and to lesser extent the Scarlatti transport) is capable of.​​ ​ You can say that​BADAis best of both worlds, and then some. Alpha​USBhas all the texture of the ORT5 and Scarlatti transport, but combines that with the outstanding resolution, smoothness and soundstaging of the Evo stack. In fact, it even goes one step further that the Evo in that department - with​BADAnot only you can hear all the detail, but you can actually feel a sound wave developing and moving the air, which makes the instrument outlines more 3D. Quite frankly, I was stunned when I first heard this.​​ ​ The​BADAAlpha​USBmade the sound smoother, with ZERO artificial edge, grain or digital glare.​​ ​ There was also much better layering of instruments, and air around the outlines. The instruments sounded not only better separated in space, but also much more 3-dimensional.​​ ​ The resolution also improved quite a bit. You could hear the sounds that you were not aware are on the recording, the HF decays had much longer trails and hung in space much longer.​​ ​ The most fascinating thing was that sound had better resolution, but at the same time, was so much smoother and fluid. Usually, it is another way round. Very often we try a new component or a cable and at first are fascinated by improved resolution, only to find out a few days later (after we had X-rayed all our recordings), that the increased resolution brings listener fatigue and makes the listening far less enjoyable.​​ ​ Not this time.​BADApulls this incredible trick of sounding both more resolute, more transparent, and much smoother at the same time.​​ ​ To me​*Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha USB defines the current state of the art inUSB/SPDIF converters design​*.​​ ​ The final shootout score is as follows:​​ ​ Matrix 24/96 - 60​​ Hegel HD2 - 65​​ Musical Fidelity V-Link II - 75​​ Stello CDT-100 - 75​​ Bryston BDP-1 - 80​​ Halide Design The Bridge – 80 (+5 when powered from​SOtM​USBcard)​​ M2Tech HiFace Evo - 80​​ Stello U3 - 85​​ JK SPDIF Mk3 - 90​​ M2Tech HiFace Evo + Evo Supply - 90​​ Soulution 590 – 90 (+5 when powered from​SOtM​USBcard)​​ Audiophilleo 1/2 - 95​​ dCS U-Clock - 95 (+5 when used with dCS​DACand the Clock Link feature enabled)​​ Empirical Audio Off Ramp Turbo 5 - 95​​ AP1 with the PurePower battery​PSU- 95 (borderline 100)​​ M2Tech HiFace Evo + Evo Supply + Evo Clock - 100​​ dCS Scarlatti CD/SACD transport - 100 (+5 when used with dCS​DACand the Clock Link feature enabled)​​ *Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha USB – 110​*


 
 To me as in comparison to the Audiophilleo 2 that was replaced by the M2TEch Evo fed by a $300 Acopian Yellow box Linear PS - the Musiland  USB 3.0 US that was better still - the Gustard unseating that - and now the Melodious MXU8 unseating it.  Many of the best attributes they describe about the Alpha I hear in the MXU8- especially the sound being liquid smooth - with all hints of glare and edge gone.  The detail, air (especially with the MXU8 vs the U12), and bass extension and definition even better.  I have found no downsides.
  
 I have a very high end tuner - $1700(see my ad for the modded KT-917) and analog rig as well (Ortofon 2M Black) as a comparison - these are in my office system - the digital is now light years ahead (with my modded true R2R modded DAC - see the separate thread).  Each improvement moving further and further into the sota arena.  That's why I put my prized $1700 tuner up for sale.


----------



## rb2013

sonic defender said:


> just read a bunch of those pages on CAP, man does it get very granular and hyper-technical. Can anybody really hear these differences, I mean reliably in blind listening tests with enough trials. It seems some people are talking about very small, measurable levels of jitter and are posting like these are incredibly audible and impactful on the sound. I certainly can't say yes or no as I lack the experience or technical knowledge, but can these very small differences really be that audible?
> 
> I mean the posters at CAP and I don't mean to imply they are wrong, I'm just very curious if people can actually here small differences in jitter? I don't know as I have no way of testing, I'm really interested in the impact of jitter and at what point it becomes audible.


 

 The improvement is not subtle or insignicant.  It is truly extrodinaary.  Of course it depends on you r system -  the highly reifned and developed the more noticible these changes are.  I listen to music 10-12hrs a day  - everyday.  I have two dedicated custom built servers with 3TB of music in each.  Over 2800 CDs, 300+LPs all digitalized with pro audio ADCs at 32 but 176K sampling, same for my SACD/DVD-A and DL collection.  Every change in USB interface has made a notable improvement.  The MXU8 has taken my system to a new level.  A $200 no brainer as far as I'm concerned - I have $800 worth of cables hanging off the back of it!
  
 Advanced audio is what I call subtractive and additive.  Additive in the sense that when you add or change a component - if it's a true improvement you know it right away.  And when you go back to what you had before - it's a definite step backward.  But you'll never know what your missing until you hear it.


----------



## Sonic Defender

rb2013 said:


> The improvement is not subtle or insignicant.  It is truly extrodinaary.  Of course it depends on you r system -  the highly reifned and developed the more noticible these changes are.  I listen to music 10-12hrs a day  - everyday.  I have two dedicated custom built servers with 3TB of music in each.  Over 2800 CDs, 300+LPs all digitalized with pro audio ADCs at 32 but 176K sampling, same for my SACD/DVD-A and DL collection.  Every change in USB interface has made a notable improvement.  The MXU8 has taken my system to a new level.  A $200 no brainer as far as I'm concerned - I have $800 worth of cables hanging off the back of it!
> 
> Advanced audio is what I call subtractive and additive.  Additive in the sense that when you add or change a component - if it's a true improvement you know it right away.  And when you go back to what you had before - it's a definite step backward.  But you'll never know what your missing until you hear it.


 

 No, I mean the minute differences in jitter. If the jitter is itself inaudible (not sure if it is, that is why I'm asking) at these tiny measurements (referring to the CAP thread not this one) I don't think the system matters as the ear and brain are the final system and if they aren't sensitive enough what would it matter?


----------



## rb2013

sonic defender said:


> No, I mean the minute differences in jitter. If the jitter is itself inaudible (not sure if it is, that is why I'm asking) at these tiny measurements (referring to the CAP thread not this one) I don't think the system matters as the ear and brain are the final system and if they aren't sensitive enough what would it matter?


Well good point. But as the white papers I linked to a little ways back highlight what's referred to as 'jitter' - is really at least five kinds of timing and related 'distortions. When we look at a digital reproduction system, it all just a very intricate approximation of a real analogue waveform. To accomplish this with just 1's and 0's requires some very sophisticated technology.

I remember when cd's launched to much exuberance in the '80s. All this perfect sound forever rubbish. To me it was horrible. Etchy, glaring, bleached of tonality. But hey you could play them in your car! And the tape didn't jam. Well nearly 40 yrs later we have realised that really good analogue is in many ways still better. So to your point, these minutely measured factors are amplified millions of times a minute. And the ear is very sensitive to these unnatural artifacts. The reason your two ears and mind can locate sounds in a 360 degree radius quite accurately is due to microsssecond differences in time it takes that sound to reachh both ears.


----------



## m0reilly

chasing the 'analog': a daw gone highly subjective chore indeed


----------



## Jamiee

Just heard from Stacy @ Shenzhenaudio.
  
 She said that the MX-U8 Silver version is out of stock for about a week or so.
 Black version is in stock and available for immediate shipping.
 ...I will wait for the silver.
  
 A rather interesting point is that Stacy mentioned that there has been a change to the U8's under-chassis.
 Apparently it's now gold!
 I'm not sure if that's gold plating, anodizing, or a brick of gold...  (Ok, probably not a brick of gold).
 She also hinted at the possibility that the casing itself could be changed by the use of higher quality materials.
 The designer said that they want to improve on the current unit but hasn't specified all of the changes yet, so Stacy is still waiting to hear back on more of the details.
  
 BTW, the revision change(s) will start with the new shipment coming in about a week.
 The black color unit's that are currently in-stock are of the previous revision.
  
  
 I will let you guys know what I hear in the coming days...


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Well good point. But as the white papers I linked to a little ways back highlight what's referred to as 'jitter' - is really at least five kinds of timing and related 'distortions. When we look at a digital reproduction system, it all just a very intricate approximation of a real analogue waveform. To accomplish this with just 1's and 0's requires some very sophisticated technology.
> 
> I remember when cd's launched to much exuberance in the '80s. All this perfect sound forever rubbish. To me it was horrible. Etchy, glaring, bleached of tonality. But hey you could play them in your car! And the tape didn't jam. Well nearly 40 yrs later we have realised that really good analogue is in many ways still better. So to your point, these minutely measured factors are amplified millions of times a minute. And the ear is very sensitive to these unnatural artifacts. The reason your two ears and mind can locate sounds in a 360 degree radius quite accurately is due to microsssecond differences in time it takes that sound to reachh both ears.


 
 Something about Jitter: http://www.ndk.com/en/ad/2013/001/index.html


----------



## abartels

Hi All,
  
  
 Today my MX-U8 has been ordered thru my kindest middleman ever, hpgsemaj.
 He has helped me a lot communicating with Melodious and has arranged that i receive MX-U8 with better Noratel transformer (230V only)
 and Crystals placed on sockets (pins) for making changing to NDK's a lot easier.
  
 Again, hpgsemaj, lots and lots of thanks, you are the best! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 In the meantime I ordered the needed NDK Crystals, MUR120 rectifiers, several RIFA MKP 0,01uF/0,1uF bypass caps and Panasonic FC's (4700uF and 2700uF)
 Can't wait to receive MX-U8 and starting all the mods 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Hope it will at least sound as good as my U12, if it is I'm a happy man 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Finally, if XM-U8 is indeed at least equal to SQ U12, i will sell heavily modded U12 to anyone who's interested (yes, including the NDK's)
  
  
 Happy modding for everyone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Alex


----------



## hgpsemaj

oh dear, I am flattered.


----------



## conquerator2

hgpsemaj said:


> oh dear, I am flattered.




Would you help a European too?


----------



## abartels

conquerator2 said:


> Would you help a European too?


 
  
 Thats what i thought would happen 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I'm European too (Dutch)


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Thats what i thought would happen
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
 Man and places are divided by north and south;
 In search of High Fidelity are never divided by west and east.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Man and places are divided by north and south,
> In search of High Fidelity are not divided by west and east.


 
  
 Thats a good one


----------



## MINORISUKE

Finally, my MX-U8 arrived.  The DAC display shows 44.1kHz, but DSD128 was played back (the right lamp "DSD" is on).  Something must be wrong with the Ethernet cable I made for I2S/DSD connection.
 The sound is perfect with the highest clarity I have ever experienced.


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> I wounder if you ask him if he tests the clocks he buys for timing accuracy and jitter before installing?
> 
> My second MXU8 is on the way and the Crystek clocks and FC caps are in - so will begin the mods once the 2nd one arrives.


 
  
 Mr. Google translates it as: 
  
 Mr, Liu Feng claims: Clock accuracy of the test done at the factory, this is my personally getting goods to Shenzhen. And, each version of the board to do a jitter test, not every machine are measured, jitter test is completed in my friend over there.


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> Thank you!  I already have the parts and can easily handle these simple mods - and reverse them if the sound is not improved.
> 
> But for other's not so well versed in weilding a soldering iron - what would he charge and how long would it take?  Could make the same model with an external clock connection feature like the Tanley?


 
  
 Mr. Google translates it as:
  
 Mr. Liu claims: We are not planning to build external clock connection.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Something about Jitter: http://www.ndk.com/en/ad/2013/001/index.html


 

 Good post - but 'Phase Noise' is just one aspect of jitter and timing issues:
  
 http://www.sitime.com/support2/documents/AN10007-Jitter-and-measurement.pdf
*2. Types of Jitter *
 Jitter can be measured in a number of ways; the following are the major types of jitter:
 • Period Jitter
 • Cycle to Cycle Period Jitter
 • Long Term Jitter
 • Phase Jitter
 • Time Interval Error (TIE)
  
 PS And I previously posted all these measurements are just an average of sampled production units.  What I'm concerned about is the std dev from the mean in the actual clock you recieve to install.  I would love to see their QC statistics for a large sample size.
  
  
 Even for an individual clock the amount of samples increases the Sigma
  


> 2.1.2 Calculating Peak to Peak Jitter from RMS Jitter Because the period jitter from a clock is random in nature with Gaussian distribution, it can be completely expressed in terms of its Root Mean Square (RMS) value in pico-seconds (pS). However, the peak-to-peak value is more relevant in calculating setup and hold time budgets. To convert the RMS jitter to peak-to-peak (Pk-Pk) jitter for a sample size of 10,000, the reader can use the following equation: Peak-to-peak period jitter = 7.44 x (RMS jitter) Equation 1 For example, if the RMS jitter is 3 pS, the peak to peak jitter is ±11.16 pS. Equation 1 is derived from the Gaussian Probability Density Function (PDF) table. For instance, if the sample size is 100, 99 of those samples will fall within ±2.327σ from the mean value of the distribution, only 1 sample, on average, will fall outside that region. SiTime measures the RMS period jitter over a sample size of 10,000 as specified by the JEDEC standard.


 
 For example from the SiTime WP:
  
 Sample Size Sigma (σ)
  
 10 ±1.282
 100 ±2.327
 1,000 ±3.090
 10,000 ±3.719
 100,000 ±4.265
 1,000,000 ±4.754
 10,000,000 ±5.200
 100,000,000 ±5.612
 1,000,000,000 ±5.998
 10,000,000,000 ±6.362
 100,000,000,000 ±6.706
 1,000,000,000,000 ±7.035
  
 Table 1. Gaussian probability density function (PDF)


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> Mr. Google translates it as:
> 
> Mr, Liu Feng claims: Clock accuracy of the test done at the factory, this is my personally getting goods to Shenzhen. And, each version of the board to do a jitter test, not every machine are measured, jitter test is completed in my friend over there.


 
 Thanks!
  


hgpsemaj said:


> Mr. Google translates it as:
> 
> Mr. Liu claims: We are not planning to build external clock connection.


 
 Thanks again!
  
 After studying the Tanley's inovative design (FPGA FIFO buffer and isolation) - I may give one a go.  I like the external clock feature- as there are some reasonable rubidium clocks available.  They also offer a SPDIF 3 feature that allows the clocks to be run as either Master or Slave

  


> SDIF-3 function is a customized feature,the word clock of SDIF-3 can be slave or master. if you need SDIF-3 function, please contact seller.


 


> ```
> [color=rgb(33, 33, 33)][left] SDIF-3 functions available firmware , SDIF-3 clock output , external clock , you can add the switch selection. Client interface has been modified to function with SDIF-3 . These pictures are very grateful customers .[/left][/color]
> ```


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> After studying the Tanley's inovative design (FPGA FIFO buffer and isolation) - I may give one a go.  I like the external clock feature- as there are some reasonable rubidium clocks available.  They also offer a SPDIF 3 feature that allows the clocks to be run as either Master or Slave


 
  
  
 I have a brief contact with 'tanly_tech' of tanlyAudio yesterday, he told me the external clock sdif-3 is designed for accommodate 44. 1KHz. And, 45.158 and 49.152 are designed to control the main circuit board.


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> I have a brief contact with 'tanly_tech' of tanlyAudio yesterday, he told me the external clock sdif-3 is designed for accommodate 44. 1KHz. And, 45.158 and 49.152 are designed to control the main circuit board.


 

 I was thinking you could set the DAC to Slave it's clocks as the Tanley Master.  If it had an external clock hookup


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> I was thinking you could set the DAC to Slave it's clocks as the Tanley Master.  If it had an external clock hookup


 
 It's really a new topic for me. 'tanly_tech' of tanlyAudio claims if you connect 'tanly usb interface' to your DAC via XLR, then you don't need to hook up the external clock.


----------



## Radiohead99

What does that mean?? USB in to Tanly and AES/EBU from Tanly to DAC?


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> It's really a new topic for me. 'tanly_tech' of tanlyAudio claims if you connect 'tanly usb interface' to your DAC via XLR, then you don't need to hook up the external clock.


 

 Very cool!  It can send the master clock signal to the DAC by AES spdif


----------



## rb2013

radiohead99 said:


> What does that mean?? USB in to Tanly and AES/EBU from Tanly to DAC?


 

 Yes I think so- then you can use the better clocks in the Tanley for the DAC is master from


----------



## genclaymore

Rb2013 would I gain any benefits moving away from the peach tree audio X1 to spdif converert other then it being in the way, to a unmounted Gustard U12 or that other one that was mentioned?


----------



## Radiohead99

I wonder whether Tanly Audio usb converter I2S is compatible with W4S or PS Audio dacs. It's LVDS. But if the channel is swapped like the Gustard U12 and W4S.


----------



## zaccio

Hi rb2013 !
  
 One more
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/XMOS-HIFI-USB-Asynchronous-Digital-Interface-Processor-sound-card-192kHz-24bit-/281631486715?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41928b72fb
 http://www.cart100.com/Product/39874047528/#


----------



## rb2013

genclaymore said:


> Rb2013 would I gain any benefits moving away from the peach tree audio X1 to spdif converert other then it being in the way, to a unmounted Gustard U12 or that other one that was mentioned?


 
 I think certainly yes - see the earlier pages - I believe some tried the U12 with the X1 and had good results.  For $150 the U12 is screaming bargain.  PM and I can sell you one of mine with better caps.  For $230 the MXU8 is better.  Your money your call.
  


radiohead99 said:


> I wonder whether Tanly Audio usb converter I2S is compatible with W4S or PS Audio dacs. It's LVDS. But if the channel is swapped like the Gustard U12 and W4S.


 
 I think the MXU8 is like the U12 - maybe a XMOS issue?
  


zaccio said:


> Hi rb2013 !
> 
> One more
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/XMOS-HIFI-USB-Asynchronous-Digital-Interface-Processor-sound-card-192kHz-24bit-/281631486715?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41928b72fb
> http://www.cart100.com/Product/39874047528/#


 
 Oh no you didn't! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  It's an embarrassment of riches. Like I said we are living in an audio golden age.


----------



## rurika

radiohead99 said:


> I wonder whether Tanly Audio usb converter I2S is compatible with W4S or PS Audio dacs. It's [COLOR=333333]LVDS. But if the channel is swapped like the Gustard U12 and W4S.[/COLOR]


I believe the channel will swap like U12 and W4S cause almost chinese i2s to hdmi module are all the same.

Just wondering why no one try to convince them to make it with PS Audio standard.

I will give Tanley a try if they can change their i2s pin like PS Audio.

Almost forgot to report the polarity tested with U12. Well, I failed the blinded test even when use spdif(coax) output. So, you need some one else to do the polarity test.


----------



## MINORISUKE

radiohead99 said:


> I wonder whether Tanly Audio usb converter I2S is compatible with W4S or PS Audio dacs. It's [COLOR=333333]LVDS. But if the channel is swapped like the Gustard U12 and W4S.[/COLOR]



As posted previously, pin 1/3 and 7/9 are in inverted phase in U12. Nothing to do with XMOS. From Gustard's viewpoint, PS Audio assignment is inverted. Ask Tanly about their pin assingnment.


----------



## rurika

Just contact Tanly Audio and they said that they can modify the hdmi pin output to the same as PS Audio layout.
  
 That's a good news !!


----------



## rurika

Got some news about SDIF-3 clock input. (from Tanly)
 If you want to use the clock input.  Your dac must have the SDIF-3 input too.


----------



## conquerator2

Could I get a link to the Tanly Audio one, please?


----------



## rurika

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z0k.7385961.1997985097.d4918997.gP8xeX&id=40193288881&_u=81d7eit64f3
 You have to regis taobao.com to talk with tanly_tech or you can email him to tanly.tam at gmail.com


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> PS Found the gold colored ones Melodious is using:
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=3055539004




Alternate shop link

 http://m.ebay.com/itm/261533399016


----------



## abartels

zaccio said:


> Hi rb2013 !
> 
> One more
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/XMOS-HIFI-USB-Asynchronous-Digital-Interface-Processor-sound-card-192kHz-24bit-/281631486715?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41928b72fb
> http://www.cart100.com/Product/39874047528/#


 
  
 It has no I2S connection which the most important connection since it's DIRECT connection to DAC-CHIP, without interference of any transformer (Pulse / Murata) and clocksignal wil be derived from I2S signal.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Very cool!  It can send the master clock signal to the DAC by AES spdif


 
  
  
 I2S does ALWAYS, it's native within the spec, thats why I2S is most preferred signal transfer between source and DAC.
  
 QUOTE:
 The most important advantage of this connection is to avoid the double conversion from I2S to S/PDIF or AES/EBU inside the CD-Transport and vice-versa inside the DAC;
 with the I2S connection the Master Clock is generated inside the CD-Transport and all the signals are synchronized with this and sent directly to the DAC.
 from http://www.northstar-audio.co.uk/why_i2s.html
  
 QUOTE:
 The main advantage of I2S is the separation of the word clock from the rest of the digital signal. Theoretically, this will allow for lower transmission jitter, same as the separate word clock connection on some pro gear offers.
 Of course, this facility must exist at both ends of the connection.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> I2S does ALWAYS, it's native within the spec, thats why I2S is most preferred signal transfer between source and DAC.
> 
> QUOTE:
> The most important advantage of this connection is to avoid the double conversion from I2S to S/PDIF or AES/EBU inside the CD-Transport and vice-versa inside the DAC;
> ...


 

 Well depends on if the DAC has better clocking. I2S was designed as an internal connection within a CD player between the internal transport and DAC board.  It was designed for very short runs or cables.  Not for longer runs like SPDIF AES.  The issue then becomes a latency issue due to the time it takes for the clock signal to arrive to the DAC.  Of course in the DAC the distance between the DAC chip and clocks is inches - not feet.  When every femtosecond counts the speed of transmission is important.
  
  
 http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/overdrive-dac
   
 Quote:


> We put the I2S input on the Overdrive so that it could be driven from the I2S output on our Off-Ramps or Pace-Car USB reclockers. The I2S interface allows the master clock to be closer to the D/A chip inside the Overdrive DAC, reducing clock jitter even more.


 
  
 http://www.crazy-audio.com/tag/i2s/


> I2S audio connections usually use 3 different clocks: a frame clock, a bit clock and a master clock that must be synchronized. This is just a small sheet showing different sample rates for the standard sample rates. One thing that is important for anybody designing I2S audio interconnects: The frequencies can be relatively high. Make sure, you keep the traces as short and use countermeasures against ringing. Otherwise your circuit might interfere other devices.


----------



## rb2013

On I2S vs AES SPDIF:
  
 http://www.lavryengineering.com/lavry_forum/viewtopic.php?t=59
Re: AES/EBU, S/PDIF, I2S and ADAT signal family relationship


> > What are the family relationships between AES/EBU signal and the S/PDIF signal? ADAT signal? I2S signal? How do these
> > signals compare concerning jitter? Signal strength? RF interference? etc. What makes the I2S jitter "proof", if it actually is?
> >
> > I found this link which attempts to explain some of this but I would like it if someone could put this into more layman's terms
> ...


----------



## AKAI

rurika said:


> I believe the channel will swap like U12 and W4S cause almost chinese i2s to hdmi module are all the same.
> 
> Just wondering why no one try to convince them to make it with PS Audio standard.
> 
> ...


 

 Audio-GD's HDMI I2S is PS Audio standard.
  
_*PS Audio*_
 PWD DSD
 SD (-) / DSD DATA R (-)
 Shield
 SD / DSD DATA R
 BCK / DSD BCK
 Shield
 BCK (-) / DSD BCK (-)
 L/RCLK (-) / DSD DATA L (-)
 Shield
 L/RCLK / DSD DATA L
 NOT USED
 Shield
 NOT USED
 GND
 5v
 Hot Plug Detect
 internal master clock
 LVDS
 HDMI
  
 Below is Audio-GD DI 2014
  
*I2S-HDMI mode pins define:*
 Pin 1 : SDATA - (DSDR-)        Pin 2 : GND                     Pin 3 : SDATA + (DSDR+)
 Pin 4 : SCLK + (DSDL+)          Pin 5 : GND                    Pin 6 : SCLK - (DSDL-)
 Pin 7 : LRCK - (DSDCLK-)        Pin 8 : GND                    Pin 9 : LRCK + (DSDCLK+)
 Pin 10: MCLK +                      Pin 11: GND                    Pin 12: MCLK -
 Pin 13: NC                             Pin 14: NC                       Pin 15: NC
 Pin 16: NC                             Pin 17: GND                     Pin 18: NC
 Pin 19: Auto on control

  Customer can custom order the different define of the I2S (RJ45 and HDMI ) pins free.


----------



## m0reilly

both the u12 and x12 have arrived. using the aes connection and playing back redbook EAC ripped files, results seem very natural/uncolored. my previous dac was the irdac. atm, the gustard combo seems 'flat' in response and tends to go deeper (sub frequencies). this will take a little getting used to...


----------



## stuartmc

m0reilly said:


> both the u12 and x12 have arrived. using the aes connection and playing back redbook EAC ripped files, results seem very natural/uncolored. my previous dac was the irdac. atm, the gustard combo seems 'flat' in response and tends to go deeper (sub frequencies). this will take a little getting used to...


 
 Read the Gustard amp thread and you will read story after story of how much the Gustard gear improves with modest break in. The H10 is the King of this, but I experienced quite a bit of the same with both the U12 and X12.  Keep the music playing for about three days before you make any conclusions... enjoy!


----------



## SodaBoy

Lavry is correct, but his concerns are mostly irrelevant to home audio. Lavry sells to the pro audio market where long cable runs are not uncommon. On a typical desktop setup very short interconnects are the norm. You can open up many DACs, and surprise, internally the USB module is often separate and connected through a short cable such as u.fl or a socketed pin. This is really no different than the short interconnects that you typically see on desktop setups.
  
 i2s is the preferred interface for all the reasons abartels has already mentioned. I don't see how "latency" is a problem for i2s anymore than it is for other interfaces. Inputs are buffered, and latency is negligible in the first place, this is simply a non-issue. Removing the need for word clock recovery and SPDIF/AES signal conversion reduces avenues in which jitter is introduced. We can debate whether i2s is needed all day long, but it is purely academic. There is no significant difference between the various interfaces if it is implemented properly, but I guess hifi isn't always a rational pursuit, we always seek the best irregardless of practicality.
  
 What I really want to see are more designers experimenting with synchronous clocking to bypass the internal SABRE ASRC and oversampling filter. However, currently the asynch scheme works so well that I doubt many manufacturers want to take the leap, especially the Chinese manufacturers which are clustered around the low to mid end of the market. It doesn't help that ESS couldn't care less about giving support to the small guys either.


----------



## m0reilly

stuartmc said:


> Read the Gustard amp thread and you will read story after story of how much the Gustard gear improves with modest break in. The H10 is the King of this, but I experienced quite a bit of the same with both the U12 and X12.  Keep the music playing for about three days before you make any conclusions... enjoy!


 
 thanks for the info, though i think it's me that needs the burn in period. i like the 'sound' of the gustard combo already (it stays pretty flat even when turning it up a bit, which is quite nice!).


----------



## m0reilly

ok, a weird one: the windows volume control is now active...wth? before installing the gustard stuff, i assumed the windows audio stack was bypassed when using foobar/wasapi event, even the asio as default. what gives here? so far i'm getting a headache listening to these components. i sure hope it gets a little better soon. i think i once again did the 'everybody says this is neat! i'll buy it too! thing. arg...


----------



## Poimandres

stuartmc said:


> Read the Gustard amp thread and you will read story after story of how much the Gustard gear improves with modest break in. The H10 is the King of this, but I experienced quite a bit of the same with both the U12 and X12.  Keep the music playing for about three days before you make any conclusions... enjoy!



Do you prefer the x12 or the u12?


----------



## stuartmc

poimandres said:


> Do you prefer the x12 or the u12?




Ones a USB interface and the other is a DAC. Two different animals and I liked both of them together, especially with the I2S connection via HDMI.


----------



## hgpsemaj

'Melodious Audio' expect to use gold in colour isolating feet on their latest update MX-U8, this new update design would not be launched before 27th April 2015.
  Would gold in colour be a bit tacky?


----------



## m0reilly

stuartmc said:


> Ones a USB interface and the other is a DAC. Two different animals and I liked both of them together, especially with the I2S connection via HDMI.


 

 waiting on fancy hdmi cable: so i2s for non dsd playback? i hope the i2s brings some warm bass...it's all about that bass at times...atm there is so much detail my head is spinning, but i also want some phat!


----------



## hgpsemaj

In my experience, replace the clock on 'transport/DAC/USB interface' makes a lot of improvement on low frequency.


----------



## abartels

Hi guys,
  
 Sorry for saying this, but i HAD to,,,,,
  
 25 years ago as part of my job i purchased electronic components from allover the world.
 All you guys are talking about QC while noone hasn't a clue what they are talking about, sorry for saying.
  
 Don't believe all those stories on the internet and resellers who claim they ONLY have versions which are
 measured and tested and are within the original specs.
  
 Whats in the spec sheet WILL be true. Imagine, like 25 years ago, people from R&D department asked me
 for a component with specific functionality and specs, i would give them a few different options and they finally
 chose one component which they used for their new design, can you imagine what happens when
 component doesn't meet the specs and there are 5000 pieces equipment that we couldn't sell because of the wrong specs of that specific component?
  
 Yes, indeed it is true when components are manufactured, the first from the batch WILL be the best, and the last of that batch WILL be worse, BUT, the last of the batch WILL be within the spec's!
  
 A very good example for this happening:
 When the first Pentium processors came out from Intel, they had a range from (from my memory) 60mHz-120mHz.
 Those processors were ALL made in ONE batch, this means:
 The first ones made from that batch were 120mHz and the last ones from that batch were 60mHz.
  
 After they were produced they got a stamp on them which told which speed they were.
 I did "overclock" many of the 75mHz processors to 120mHz because they could run at that speed, and i never
 had any troubles with doing so.
  
 Nowadays diference between first units from batch and last units from batch are much narrower because of
 more sophisticated production techniques.
  
 That said, if someone wants to buy Chrystal Oscillators and wants to measure them and sell only the ones with the highest specs, then this means those crystal oscillators would be VERY expensive because they had to throw away 90%.
  
 And last but not least, thru the hole components can be measured very easily by hand,
 but with *S*urface *M*ount *D*evices it's different cheese,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## motberg

hgpsemaj said:


> 'Melodious Audio' expect to use gold in colour isolating feet on their latest update MX-U8, this new update design would not be launched before 27th April 2015.
> Would gold in colour be a bit tacky?


 

 I would consider gold feet OK if the body was black anodized with thin gold lettering exactly matching the same tone as the feet.. other than that I would advise to stay as conservative as possible.


----------



## abartels

motberg said:


> I would consider gold feet OK if the body was black anodized with thin gold lettering exactly matching the same tone as the feet.. other than that I would advise to stay as conservative as possible.


 
  
As long as they aren't PINK I am happy


----------



## hgpsemaj

motberg said:


> I would consider gold feet OK if the body was black anodized with thin gold lettering exactly matching the same tone as the feet.. other than that I would advise to stay as conservative as possible.


 
 Mr. Liu Peng informed us that the existing wording is done by laser engraving, so colour cannot be changed in new version.


----------



## m0reilly

hgpsemaj said:


> In my experience, replace the clock on 'transport/DAC/USB interface' makes a lot of improvement on low frequency.


 

 which part is that?


----------



## hgpsemaj

m0reilly said:


> which part is that?


 

 Dexa Clock, it was quite popular, but not now.
  

 Probably, our new kid in town.


----------



## winxp

Mr. Liu gave me another new MX-U8 driver one hour ago, it sounds much much better than every one I tried before. It worth a try!


----------



## Jamiee

Has anyone tried the U12 drivers to see if they work with the MX-U8?


----------



## m0reilly

hgpsemaj said:


> Dexa Clock, it was quite popular, but not now.
> 
> 
> Probably, our new kid in town.


 

 heck, i don't have one of them things...where does it hook on?


----------



## prot

hgpsemaj said:


> 'Melodious Audio' expect to use gold in colour isolating feet on their latest update MX-U8, this new update design would not be launched before 27th April 2015.
> Would gold in colour be a bit tacky?




If it's only the feet no problem. 
A nice extra feature would be a small screen showing the format, no of bits & frequency of the audiostream ... like the gustard has. Or just a few leds showing that info


----------



## m0reilly

before i return this stuff i wanted to try playing dsd or upsample on the fly from pcm, using foobar. after trying all the methods i could find on the net, none seem to do anything. is there an onsite guide or one that is a go to that i could try? if at least upsampling does anything re my audio experience, i might hold onto it.


----------



## prot

m0reilly said:


> before i return this stuff i wanted to try playing dsd or upsample on the fly from pcm, using foobar. after trying all the methods i could find on the net, none seem to do anything. is there an onsite guide or one that is a go to that i could try? if at least upsampling does anything re my audio experience, i might hold onto it.




What exactly do you mean by "none seem to do anything"? The audiostream is not upsampled or it's just that you do not hear any difference !? The latter is normal, the former means that you are doing something wrong


----------



## m0reilly

dsd works fine atm. downloaded a sample (classical). for on the fly upsampling playback, i don't know where to begin.


----------



## m0reilly

oh, and it seems the u12/x12 are 256 capable: u12 displays a broken line, while the x12 reads out 256...anyone else try 256?


----------



## prot

m0reilly said:


> dsd works fine atm. downloaded a sample (classical). for on the fly upsampling playback, i don't know where to begin.




A very good upsampler (pcm only) http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showtopic=67373. 
I do not have a dsd dac, cant help you much with the pcm-dsd conversion. Just google something like "foobar dsd", there should be multiple options. And IIRC, jriver can do that ootb ... HQPlayer too. And both have trial versions.


----------



## m0reilly

thanks for the link


----------



## m0reilly

looks like using the coax out option from the u12 brings the bass...


----------



## Jamiee

I've tried both AES and COAX from the U12 using MIT cables and can't say there's much of a difference between them.
 The background is very slightly blacker with AES but I'd be more than happy with either output option.


----------



## m0reilly

the aes is bland, more 2d with a gray background, coax a bit more chubby, but i've gone back to the i2s, as it is more 'wet'. i'll build a second ported sub to bolster the bass output (using the x units not with hp but as a system wide dac, with 'gunned' magnepan mmg mains, lab 15 sub driver in a 7.5ft3 ported enclosure). i'm sold on the x units detail, image cohesiveness and that big wide soundstage.


----------



## Stillhart

Hey folks,
  
 I'm running into a small issue with my U12 and I was hoping someone could help.
  
 Basically, I've been running it for about a week using coax and AES into a vintage DAC (Adcom GDA-600).  As long as I keep the source below 48k, it works great.
  
 Well I got a new Vintage DAC and plugged in the coax and it can't lock onto the digital signal.  However, when I use the coax out from my Fiio X5, it works just fine.  Same cord, same input, same files, different transport.  If I plug the Gustard into my NFB-28 or GDA-600, works fine.
  
 Can you guys think of anything that might be causing the coax output to be wonky in any way?  Any settings I can tweak on the drivers to help?  I'm using the modded WaveIO driver.
  
 I'm still in the 30-day return window with Amazon, but I'd rather not have to return it if I don't have to...


----------



## m0reilly

a protocol issue?


----------



## motberg

hgpsemaj said:


> Mr. Liu Peng informed us that the existing wording is done by laser engraving, so colour cannot be changed in new version.


 

 I just received my MX-U8 today and noticed the feet are pretty small - so possibly no effect on the sales potential if changed to gold...


----------



## hgpsemaj

motberg said:


> I just received my MX-U8 today and noticed the feet are pretty small - so possibly no effect on the sales potential if changed to gold...


 
  
 Please note, the latest recommended driver is Version2.24, but not V2.29.


----------



## bowtung

Has anyone tried to connect mx-u8 to audio gd dacs?

I am pretty sure i have the right cable and configuration on both sides of the cable but cant seem to make connection between my master 7 and mx-u8.


----------



## m0reilly

bowtung said:


> Has anyone tried to connect mx-u8 to audio gd dacs?
> 
> I am pretty sure i have the right cable and configuration on both sides of the cable but cant seem to make connection between my master 7 and mx-u8.


 
 heck B, if using a usb A/B, with your wording, you may get some colorful responses


----------



## rurika

Nobody interest in tanly ?
 I still wait for some feedback before pull the trigger.


----------



## bowtung

m0reilly said:


> heck B, if using a usb A/B, with your wording, you may get some colorful responses


 
 Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. I can't get i2s with rj45 jacks to work between master 7 and mx-u8, coaxial works, but I don't think it's as good as master 7's internal usb.


----------



## hgpsemaj

rurika said:


> Nobody interest in tanly ?
> I still wait for some feedback before pull the trigger.


 
  
  
 Could these be part of the reason:
  
 1. U12@RMB750,
 2. MX-U8@RMB1,080,
 3. Tanly@RMB2,900.


----------



## conquerator2

stillhart said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> I'm running into a small issue with my U12 and I was hoping someone could help.
> 
> ...


 
 Try using the regular driver. I use it [a small CD should have come with the U12, containing the OG driver]. Worth a shot!


----------



## Stillhart

conquerator2 said:


> Try using the regular driver. I use it [a small CD should have come with the U12, containing the OG driver]. Worth a shot!


 The disk that came with mine appears to be blank.


----------



## motberg

bowtung said:


> Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. I can't get i2s with rj45 jacks to work between master 7 and mx-u8, coaxial works, but I don't think it's as good as master 7's internal usb.


 

 The MX-U8 and M7 have different RJ45 pin assignments.. you need to order the MX-U8 configured for M7 or M7 configured for MX-U8 or maybe construct a crossover cable...
 I ordered a MX-U8 compatible with a M7 (I sent SZ Audio the pin assignments published on the Audio-GD website) but not yet received the M7 to try...


----------



## motberg

bowtung said:


> Has anyone tried to connect mx-u8 to audio gd dacs?
> 
> I am pretty sure i have the right cable and configuration on both sides of the cable but cant seem to make connection between my master 7 and mx-u8.


 

 Oh.. sorry for the last post if this above infers you made a crossover cable... I think this i2S connection is pretty sensitive to faults appearing due to connecting with one or both sides while the device is powered on.. maybe some current was inadvertently applied while connecting the cable?
  
 If you could get a crossover style cable to work with either the U12 or MX-U8, I think that would be fantastic to have a reasonably priced XMOS option for Audio-GD..  I had a Audio-GD DI-V3 which had very good SQ - but did not work optimally with JPlay which is my preferred software.


----------



## Alexsander

Hi,maybe somebody compared *Melidious MX-U8 vs Gustard U12*?
  
  
 p.s.
 In Gustard costs CPLD *ALTERA MAXII* _EPM240T100C5N_ interestingly for what targets?


----------



## bowtung

Just want to report that I opened my master 7, looked at the configurations and made three more i2s cables, finally made one that worked perfectly with MX-U8. Such a long night
  
 Apparently audio-gd did not make my DAC's i2s port configured as with pin outs that I sent them


----------



## ccschua

does anyone know what sort of DC regualtors and diodes used in Tanly.
  
 i believe 50% of good sound comes from DC regualtors.


----------



## motberg

bowtung said:


> Just want to report that I opened my master 7, looked at the configurations and made three more i2s cables, finally made one that worked perfectly with MX-U8. Such a long night
> 
> Apparently audio-gd did not make my DAC's i2s port configured as with pin outs that I sent them


 

 Wow... congratulations.. if you get the chance, please report on the SQ differences vs. the M7 USB32... thanks...


----------



## motberg

ccschua said:


> does anyone know what sort of DC regualtors and diodes used in Tanly.
> 
> i believe 50% of good sound comes from DC regualtors.


 

 not sure if this will help - but here is a link I have not yet seen posted...
  
 http://tanly-audio.blogspot.hk/


----------



## phile1

hi,
 the Gustard U12 is a great product, no doubt about it.
 I can't find if you already talked about it but instead of spending time & money in tweaking the U12, you should lokk at this thread : http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/corning-optical-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-cable-experiences-23437/
 The Corning 3.Optical usb cable works perfectly with the U12 and brings it a few step beyond, nothing compared to internal tweaks.
 Rgds


----------



## abartels

phile1 said:


> hi,
> the Gustard U12 is a great product, no doubt about it.
> I can't find if you already talked about it but instead of spending time & money in tweaking the U12, you should lokk at this thread : http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/corning-optical-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-cable-experiences-23437/
> The Corning 3.Optical usb cable works perfectly with the U12 and brings it a few step beyond, nothing compared to internal tweaks.
> Rgds


 
  
 Maybe it's a very nice additive to have, but saying it's better than the mods we did, especially with more as twice the value of psu caps with very low ESR (Panasonic FC), NDK / Chrystek crystals, MUR120 rectifiers instead of cheap M4 rectifiers (1N4001), is a bit premature. Did you compare heavily modded U12 to standard version with Corning3 cable? If not, please don't post this kind of messages.
  
 The U12 I have is thát good that I'm not so sure if I wanna sell it. And I didn't test with 2-headed USB cable with external linear power supply (that's were the Corning could come in,,,,,,,).
  
 And, btw, you are talking about cables that are more expensive than the whole U12 INCLUDING mods.
  
 But, anyway, thank you for bringing it up! Maybe we can test how SQ improves if someone wants to buy and try,,,,


----------



## hgpsemaj

phile1 said:


> hi,
> the Gustard U12 is a great product, no doubt about it.
> I can't find if you already talked about it but instead of spending time & money in tweaking the U12, you should lokk at this thread : http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/corning-optical-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-cable-experiences-23437/
> The Corning 3.Optical usb cable works perfectly with the U12 and brings it a few step beyond, nothing compared to internal tweaks.
> Rgds


 
  
 A very good suggestion, but we must aware TOSLINK requires a change in format from an electrical to an optical medium. No such change, including similar changes from digital-to-analogue or from analogue-to-digital, is without cost. 
  
 So, why not just opt for a product which offers 'USB-32'?


----------



## phile1

hi Abartels, 
 I understand your reply & apologize, my post was to "sharp".
 I follow carefully all the debate about tweaking the U12, honestly I found what you do very smart, but as I have no know-how to tweak as you do, that kind of tweak is forbidden for me. I'm just like 90% of people, just able to buy stuff, plug & hear if it brings something or not.
  
 Regarding this cable, I must explain : what this cable brings is fairly simple : it is all about galvanic isolation, no more no less.
 As the data flows through metallic medium then through optical leads to a galvanic isolation between in & out of the cable. Meanining that all electrical noise created upstream (NAS/computer/SMPS) is stopped (or nearly). 
 The point is that noise can be heard very clearly, thus it is a point to clear 1st. I just point out that point. Whatever you setup, low or high, that kind of solution brings your setup to another level.
 OK it is not "audiophile", it is made for data transfer, but audioplile recycle the good idea of others 
  
 @ hgpsemaj, 
 the corning cable can not be compared to Toslink. Technology is different. In toslink you transfer "audio", but in the corning you transfer "data".
 It explains why a toslink is limited to a few meters, but this corning remains 100% reliable up to 50meters.
 The other point is the price, 120eur. In some extend it is cheaper than many other solutions.
 I just saw there is a new thread about it... but no reply on it : http://www.head-fi.org/t/762483/corning-usb-3-optical-cable
 Rgds


----------



## Sonic Defender

Showing my ignorance here, but I'm sure people will help me become knowledgeable. So the USB out on the computer goes to the Gustard USB in, then I would use the AES out from the U12 to my M51s AES in. I think that is correct so far. So given this what I am confused about is why the need for a driver for Windows at all. It is still the M51 running through Windows for JR to work with so I just don't get where the U12 driver comes into the picture? Help clear up my ignorance. Thanks.


----------



## m0reilly

the usb drivers are needed for the u12 xmos chip/usb 2.0 audio when using windows.


----------



## Sonic Defender

m0reilly said:


> the usb drivers are needed for the u12 xmos chip/usb 2.0 audio when using windows.


 

 Thanks, just realized my brain cramp, of course, the U12 takes the USB from the computer. Not sure why I missed that, I don't think anything could be more obvious


----------



## abartels

phile1 said:


> hi Abartels,
> I understand your reply & apologize, my post was to "sharp".
> I follow carefully all the debate about tweaking the U12, honestly I found what you do very smart, but as I have no know-how to tweak as you do, that kind of tweak is forbidden for me. I'm just like 90% of people, just able to buy stuff, plug & hear if it brings something or not.
> 
> ...




Ok, understood, but followed link you posted and it seems usb 5v isn't galvanic isolated, only signal. 

Confused,,,


----------



## bussola

A question,important one
 The gustard is listed as 32bit interface
 But in the macbook pro midi audio settings,the maximum bit depth outoput is 24 bit
 WHY?


----------



## hgpsemaj

bussola said:


> A question,important one
> The gustard is listed as 32bit interface
> But in the macbook pro midi audio settings,the maximum bit depth outoput is 24 bit
> WHY?


 
  
  
 Please inform what is the 'Output Data Format' you set in your  freeware audio player?


----------



## prot

bussola said:


> A question,important one
> The gustard is listed as 32bit interface
> But in the macbook pro midi audio settings,the maximum bit depth outoput is 24 bit
> WHY?




That is a Q for whoever created that macbook pro midi audio 'thing' .. most prolly it does not support more than 24bit.

I wouldnt care much about that because noone needs 32bit for listening .. and noone will ever be able to listen to true 32bit audio (hint: it kills you on spot).


----------



## conquerator2

prot said:


> That is a Q for whoever created that macbook pro midi audio 'thing' .. most prolly it does not support more than 24bit.
> 
> I wouldnt care much about that because noone needs 32bit for listening .. and noone will ever be able to listen to true 32bit audio (hint: it kills you on spot).


 
 When you run a device in ASIO though, in more often than not performs best at 32-bit settings. Applied for the DI-V2014 and I believe it applies for the U12 as well...


----------



## bussola

hgpsemaj said:


> Please inform what is the 'Output Data Format' you set in your  freeware audio player?


 

 In Vox audio player there is no bit depth choice
 In audirvana plus it says 24/384 dac
 Same i nthe audiomidi settings,maximum bit depth is 24 bit
 Instead,using the minitoslink output of the macbook,i get 32 bit float point.so macbook has a 32 bit option


----------



## hgpsemaj

ok then, opted for 32bits, and what has happened?


----------



## bussola

hgpsemaj said:


> ok then, opted for 32bits, and what has happened?


 

 No,sorry this is not the problem
 My problem is that the gustard is a 32 bit usb interface(it is written also on the front panel of the unit)
 I don't get 32 bit as a choice in the midi audio setting,neither it appears to be a 32 bit on audirvana
 I can get 32 bit lfoating point from the macbook using its optical output,not connecting the gustard.


----------



## genclaymore

Bought the Gustard U12 that some one modded with better caps off ebay. just gotta wait til they ship it.  Now i need to stop reading the other Gustard threads for the X12 and H10 before i end up with both some how because the urge is there and it rising with me getting inerested in running balance.I may end up with both if this keeps up.


----------



## hgpsemaj

Watch out, X20 is on the way.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Watch out, X20 is on the way.


 
  
 Any info available?


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Any info available?


 
  
 huang_cs of Gustard/TaoBao expects to launch X20 on June this year


----------



## hgpsemaj

Mr. Liu claimed they would not install 'Digital Display' on MX-U8.
 'Digital Display' could only be installed on a DAC which is controlled by software, Mr. Liu considers this is a redundant move.


----------



## hgpsemaj

Gustard also informed us those standard TCXO could be replaced by premium grade OCXO.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Gustard also informed us those standard TCXO could be replaced by premium grade OCXO.


 
  
 Tell me more about this please


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Tell me more about this please


 
  
 I know what you mean...............all the pins between TXCO and OCXO are located differently;
 well.... may be Gustard aware we have a maestro in this forum calls abartels, he could fabricate sockets for all the interest parties..........you know what I mean?


----------



## hgpsemaj

hgpsemaj said:


> Well... MX-U8 is clearly leading the race by 5 factors:
> 
> (i)    Supports DSD256.
> (ii)   It does NOT consume 5V from the computer via USB cable,
> ...


 
  
  
 I have an email in hand claimed MX-U8 is not compatible with his DSD support DAC. So far, it is a single issue from an individual user. Hence, I would not treat this as an adverse factor for MX-U8.
 I wish all the 'DSD support DAC' user could submit their review to this forum, so that we could provide a more precise comparison between these two usb interfaces.
 For fair and even reason, I must withdraw factor "(i) Support DSD256" as a leading factor for MX-U8. To resume the race, we got the following:
  
 (ii)   It does NOT consume 5V from the computer via USB cable,
 (iii)  All round better grade components,
 (iv)  Power Supply separates with main circuit board,
 (v)   Spacious interior room is a treat for audiophile diy enthusiastic.
  
 For the time being, it is 4 nil to MX-U8, But I could inform you, it is just a matter of sooner or later, 3 nil is on the way. Yes, Gustard is on the way back.
  
 It seems a nip and tuck race is inevitable. STAY TUNE.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> I know what you mean...............all the pins between TXCO and OCXO are located differently;
> well.... may be Gustard aware we have a maestro in this forum calls abartels, he could fabricate sockets for all the interest parties..........you know what I mean?


 
  
 Hahahaha, i know what you mean 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Maybe they've got tested with ocxo? Maybe you ask them for type?


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Hahahaha, i know what you mean
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 No, not me. And, there is three reasons I would not bother:
  
 (i)   They are not an A to A replacement,
 (ii)   From observation, the performance of NDK is so close to OCXO; And, from your replacement review, the NDK is so outstanding.
 (iii)  I am struggling with an OCXO now, and I shall submit this report, hopefully, sometimes next week.


----------



## bowtung

motberg said:


> Wow... congratulations.. if you get the chance, please report on the SQ differences vs. the M7 USB32... thanks...


 
 Sorry for the late reply, have been very busy, and not listening to music that much.
  
 The immediate difference to me is that the mx-u8 has better dynamics, punch, authority and maybe resolution (not sure if I am hearing resolution).
 The usb32 with the latest firmware sounds soft compared to the USB interface.
  
 This does not mean that I prefer the digital interface, in fact, although I think the interface is better (at least technically), I might actually prefer the softer sounds (preference only).
 I do need much more time to evaluate the differences. However, we are talking about interface, not the DAC itself, the differences are very minor compared to like a dac change.
  
 I also need to get a better i2s cable, I am just using a 15cm internet cable right now. So take my impression with a pinch of salt


----------



## prot

hgpsemaj said:


> Mr. Liu claimed they would not install 'Digital Display' on MX-U8.
> 'Digital Display' could only be installed on a DAC which is controlled by software, Mr. Liu considers this is a redundant move.




Guess he is right but it was worth a try


----------



## Alexsander

DSD+Gustard U12+Gustard DAC-X12:

*DSD64 in DoP* playing without problem - all outputs is working;
*DSD128 in DoP* playing but ONLY with very good interconnect i2S HDMI cable, other U12 output is not working!
*Native DSD64 and Native DSD128* - playing ONLY with I2S HDMI cable, AES/EBU and Coaxial -white noise!
*Native DSD256* - playing with I2S HDMI, but ONLY at installation in the mode driver* "USB Extra Safe" (buffer 8192)*, at other modes-stream is damage.
 When playing DSD256, on an U12 converter screen instead of the DSD256 mode is shown----but on DAC-X12 via the U12 converter it is playing without problems and on a screen of DAC-X12 DSD256 is shown!
*DSD512*-is not working! "out_main.dll"


----------



## MINORISUKE

alexsander said:


> DSD+Gustard U12+Gustard DAC-X12:
> 
> *DSD64 in DoP* playing without problem - all outputs is working;
> *DSD128 in DoP* playing but ONLY with very good interconnect i2S HDMI cable, other U12 output is not working!
> ...


 

 As I posted previously, the stand-alone DAC-X12 has an issue of left/right channel swap in DSD playback, which seems not to have been fixed yet.  I appreciate if you could check channel swap happens in your combination (and absolute polarity as well, if possible), as many DSD DACs are suffering from this.
 Unless you have an appropriate "check" source file, you can download a free one for PCM and play it with real-time DSD conversion (foobar2000 and JRMC have this feature).


----------



## hgpsemaj

alexsander said:


> DSD+Gustard U12+Gustard DAC-X12:
> 
> *DSD64 in DoP* playing without problem - all outputs is working;
> *DSD128 in DoP* playing but ONLY with very good interconnect i2S HDMI cable, other U12 output is not working!
> ...


 
  
 What is your 'audio player'?  foobar2000? or ?


----------



## motberg

bowtung said:


> Sorry for the late reply, have been very busy, and not listening to music that much.
> 
> The immediate difference to me is that the mx-u8 has better dynamics, punch, authority and maybe resolution (not sure if I am hearing resolution).
> The usb32 with the latest firmware sounds soft compared to the USB interface.
> ...


 

 Thanks for the update - in the next few weeks I will be comparing the DI-2014 vs. the MX-U8 with a M7.. everything is new so will need a few weeks to settle in. I need think about the RJ45 cable also..
 Maybe the MX-U8 with soften up a bit over time, I remember the U12 was pretty harsh the first couple days when I had it paired with a NOS1704...


----------



## Alexsander

MX-U8 has only one advantage: better PSU (talema + LT1963 + 4x2200uF) in Gustard U12 (LM317D2T + AMS1117 + 2x2200uF)
 In MX-U8 oscillators: 22.579200MHz and 24.57600MHz.... in Gustard oscillators: 49.152000MHz and 45.158400MHz interestingly why?
 Better Digital Transformer (Murata DA-101C) in MX-U8, but install this in Gustard it is not problem (remove Pulse 65612nl).
 Schemes looks less technologically and simply in Melidious MX-U8 (IMHO)....
 Too far install oscillator 24.000000MHz from the chip XMOS...
 all this doesn't inspire trust...
 it is better to wait more advanced device! 
 with galvanic isolators as in tanlyAudio!


----------



## Alexsander

to *hgpsemaj*
  
JRiver


----------



## AKAI

rurika said:


> The I2S from U12 works with W4S.
> Confirmed. (I use U12 and W4S)


 

 Hi Rurika:
  
 Did the W4S lock the signal from the U12 right away? Is there anything special that you need to set up?
 I just received my Audio GD DI-2014 and so far it is not working on my W4S DAC2 and I don't know what is wrong?
  
 thanks,
  
 MP


----------



## hgpsemaj

*Re: Linear Power Supply*
  
 XMOS is designed with a high degree of integration, so I am considering  to power the 'main circuit board' and oscillators independently. I may let the given transformer to support the 'main circuit board', and use a 'Linear Power Supply' to back up those oscillators. I found the following 'Linear P.S.' are quite attractive:
  
  
 (A) RMB190.          http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.47.kqMFwY&id=38740262716&ns=1&abbucket=17#detail

  
  
 (B) RMB220 - RMB280  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=5706.1529727.a31f1.2.6aLAkp&id=39418148280&scm=1007.11502.5699.0&pvid=8036e3ab-d8cd-4d83-bebf-d125af2e6750


----------



## m0reilly

as alexander pointed out, and i mentioned earlier (i bet i got the info originally from alexander, and tried it ), the u12/x12 combo does 256. i do however prefer the i2s connection over the aes for redbook.


----------



## hgpsemaj

m0reilly said:


> as alexander pointed out, and i mentioned earlier (i bet i got the info originally from alexander, and tried it ), the u12/x12 combo does 256. i do however prefer the i2s connection over the aes for redbook.


 
  
 Hello,
  
 What is your 'audio player'?  foobar2000? JRiver? or
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## prot

hgpsemaj said:


> *Re: Linear Power Supply*
> 
> XMOS is designed with a high degree of integration, so I am considering  to power the 'main circuit board' and oscillators independently. I may let the given transformer to support the 'main circuit board', and use a 'Linear Power Supply' to back up those oscillators. I found the following 'Linear P.S.' are quite attractive:
> ...




Would you care to explain *why* are those particular LPSes so 'attractive' !?


----------



## hgpsemaj

prot said:


> Would you care to explain *why* are those particular LPSes so 'attractive' !?


 
  
 The Price.


----------



## prot

hgpsemaj said:


> The Price.




That's all good but hopefully you do know that 'linear' is not a magic word that makes any PS better. Any of those may be worse than your lamp's wallwart. Be sure that the vendor does provide detailed specs & measurements


----------



## hgpsemaj

prot said:


> That's all good but hopefully you do know that 'linear' is not a magic word that makes any PS better. Any of those may be worse than your lamp's wallwart. Be sure that the vendor does provide detailed specs & measurements


 
  
 Hello Prot,
  
 Thank you for your information.
  
 In fact, I've bought a 'Power Supply' many years ago. And the result is sort of 'nothing good' and "nothing bad".
  
 So, I am considering to get a low price power supply from TaoBao and pair it up with a Noratel 220V. 
  
 As you said, I must ensure it is well designed, and also with detailed information.
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## prot

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello Prot,
> 
> Thank you for your information.
> 
> ...




Kinda sounds like you are shopping with your eyes closed & wallet open . Read some about those PSes first, e.g. http://www.bkprecision.com/support/downloads/power-supply-guide.html
Basically you should look for 2 things:
1. efficiency (how much energy is used/wasted). Should be over 90% for a SPS and over 60% for LPS. 
2. regulation & ripple (difference between stated voltage and delivered). Regulation shoud be under 1% and ripple less that 50mV. A really good PS will be under 0.1% and 10mV ... dont expect it to be cheap though. 

Good luck.


----------



## motberg

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello Prot,
> 
> Thank you for your information.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi hgpsemaj... I am using 3 LPS from TeraDak, the 2 for 5V I think were in the same price range you mentioned and sound better than the wall-wart supplies they replaced, The other is one of the ATX units which I have never compared to a standard ATX PS. The TeraDak guys seem pretty passionate about their stuff as well as a competent supplier... that is enough qualification for me to get the PS's I need at a reasonable cost.


----------



## m0reilly

oops...


----------



## m0reilly

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello,
> 
> What is your 'audio player'?  foobar2000? JRiver? or
> 
> ...


 

 foobar


----------



## hgpsemaj

m0reilly said:


> heck, i don't have one of them things...where does it hook on?


 
 Hello M0reilly,
  
 Sorry for the late reply, I use it on my CD transport.
  
 Regards,


----------



## luxor69

Dear friends
  
 I am a new Gustard U12 owner. I have this issue: the U12 send the PCM to my DUAL Ak4399 DAC but without success. If I touch one ends of the SPDIF cable the DAC show the FS but with bad sound. If I send the SPDIF to my amplifier everything works flawlessy. If I feed my DAC from my DVD SPDIF is ok too. If I use my desktop PC the issue is still present. If I use my laptop the issue is still present. If I feed both U12 and DAC with my UPS the issue is still present. So I think there is a loop ground only between the U12 and my DAC. Someone of you has this issue? Which is the workaround. Thank you in advance


----------



## hgpsemaj

motberg said:


> Hi hgpsemaj... I am using 3 LPS from TeraDak, the 2 for 5V I think were in the same price range you mentioned and sound better than the wall-wart supplies they replaced, The other is one of the ATX units which I have never compared to a standard ATX PS. The TeraDak guys seem pretty passionate about their stuff as well as a competent supplier... that is enough qualification for me to get the PS's I need at a reasonable cost.


 
  
 Hello Mothberg,
  
 Thank you very much for informing me that TeraDak could supply Linear Power Supply to us. I am looking for a Linear PS which could support the oscillator of my CD transport, but  I must sort out some details of the oscillator first.
  
 Regards,


----------



## abartels

alexsander said:


> MX-U8 has only one advantage: better PSU (talema + LT1963 + 4x2200uF) in Gustard U12 (LM317D2T + AMS1117 + 2x2200uF)
> In MX-U8 oscillators: 22.579200MHz and 24.57600MHz.... in Gustard oscillators: 49.152000MHz and 45.158400MHz interestingly why?
> Better Digital Transformer (Murata DA-101C) in MX-U8, but install this in Gustard it is not problem (remove Pulse 65612nl).
> Schemes looks less technologically and simply in Melidious MX-U8 (IMHO)....
> ...


 
  
 Only one advantage,,,,, ? The power stage is a BIG advantage which can make a huge stepup in SQ
  
 Lower crystal frequencies suppose to have lower jitter natively.
  
 Design looks good, at least it uses NO ground from USB like U12 does,,,,,,,,,,,
  
 Waiting for advanced device: it all depends on how much are you willing to pay for a DDC
  
  
 MX-U8 has more possibilities to mod, simply because of it's bigger case. Hope mine arrives soon, will try to build my own HDMI-i2S output


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello Mothberg,
> 
> Thank you very much for informing me that TeraDak could supply Linear Power Supply to us. I am looking for a Linear PS which could support the oscillator of my CD transport, but  I must sort out some details of the oscillator first.
> 
> Regards,


 
  
 Just buy the PSU you mentioned 
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=5706.1529727.a31f1.2.6aLAkp&id=39418148280&scm=1007.11502.5699.0&pvid=8036e3ab-d8cd-4d83-bebf-d125af2e6750&utm_campaign=website&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email
  
 AND
  
 Buy a JZ-1 (you need to know voltage of your Crystal Oscillator)
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.20141002.6.UOBL1V&scm=1007.10009.3949.i24423568640&id=18140229202&pvid=38a111dd-6370-4267-a52a-24585aae2518
  
 Kingwa says that JZ-1 performs VERY good EVEN when powered with simple psu.
  
 Or, just use the one i noted before
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/73-08uv-ultralow-noise-dac-power-supply-regulator-33v5v-1ax2.html
  

 This one has 0,8uV noise only!!! AND it's for 2 crystals, can set 3.3V or 5V, based on LT3042
 You need 2 psu's to power this very good regulator
  
  
 I probably wi try this one in MX-U8 with 2x simple psu's which i have to build myself (within MX-U8 enclosure) to feed the NDK Crystals


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Just buy the PSU you mentioned
> 
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=5706.1529727.a31f1.2.6aLAkp&id=39418148280&scm=1007.11502.5699.0&pvid=8036e3ab-d8cd-4d83-bebf-d125af2e6750&utm_campaign=website&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hello Abartels,
  
 The Power Supply Unit offers two grades transformer. Which grade did you buy? Is it for your MX-U8? or? 
  
  
 Regards.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello Abartels,
> 
> The Power Supply Unit offers two grades transformer. Which grade did you buy? Is it for your MX-U8? or?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi hgpsemaj,
  
 I didn't buy one, don't need them, but if i HAD to buy one, i would opt for the cheapest solution since you need TWO pieces, and TWO JZ-1 OR  ONE LT3042 (which i suppose is best and better than JZ-1)
  
 And no, i won't use those for MX-U8, like i wrote, i will build my own psu inside enclosure of MX-U8


----------



## conquerator2

This should berenamed to the modding thread


----------



## abartels

conquerator2 said:


> This should berenamed to the modding thread


 
  
 Hahahahaha, you are right man


----------



## prot

conquerator2 said:


> This should be renamed to the modding thread


 
  
 Lots of interesting mods indeed but none that is cheap, simple and effective enough for everyone to try ... guess the U12's P/Q ratio is just too good.


----------



## Alexsander

abartels said:


> Only one advantage,,,,, ? The power stage is a BIG advantage which can make a huge stepup in SQ
> 
> Lower crystal frequencies suppose to have lower jitter natively.
> 
> ...


 
 In MX-U8 PSU better..., but not VERY VERY considerably...
 lower crystal frequencies were established in the previous model Gustard U10:
 http://www.kidultdiagnostic.com/dac-c-13/gustard-u10-native-32bit-384khz-xmos-dac-p-272.html#.VTljINKsWzk
 http://www.kidultdiagnostic.com/images/gustard/gustard-u10_08.jpg
 I very much doubt that in U12 install worse oscillators!
 Design looks good....U12 too looks good! 
 STOP! *full **galvanic isolators* (like in tanlyAudio)  NOT  have in U12 and MX-U8! And ground from usb always is *connected with converter!*
 You can try to leave in a usb cable only D- and D+ (information line) converter is not working!
 In my setup it already fourth converter at about one price they considerably differ...difference between them only in date of purchase...this segment develops very fast!
 The following converter I want similar tanlyAudio but at more reasonable price and in other design.


----------



## korn-fi

According the pics from Taobao, tanlyAudio use  Crystek low phase noise oscillators. I just google Crysteck , The Crystek oscillator is not cheap.


----------



## rurika

Got a customize hdmi cable to connect W4S DAC. (swap pin 1&3,  pin 7&9)
 Now the channel swapped problem has been solve.
  
 Hi, Alexsander.
 Do you have the product link of the one that you want ? I'm also looking for another usb converter and think the Tanly is a little bit expensive.


----------



## Alexsander

korn-fi said:


> According the pics from Taobao, tanlyAudio use  Crystek low phase noise oscillators. I just google Crysteck , The Crystek oscillator is not cheap.


 
 all of them not cheap:
  
 Crystek oscillator CCHD-957-25-45.1584 *US $28.53*
 http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?s=29728&pv139=2611&FV=fff4000d%2Cfff8016e&k=crystek&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
  
 Vanguard TCXO 0.1ppm 45.1584MHz Ultra precision Golden Oscillator *US $28.00*
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vanguard-TCXO-0-1ppm-45-1584MHz-Ultra-precision-Golden-Oscillator-/131020895862?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e81743676


----------



## Alexsander

rurika said:


> Hi, Alexsander.
> Do you have the product link of the one that you want ? I'm also looking for another usb converter and think the Tanly is a little bit expensive.


 
 Hi
 I didn't find such, but progress doesn't stand still 
  
 Converter with full galvanic isolators so little in the market (EDEL from ABC, audiobyte hydra z, tanlyAudio...)
 http://www.abc-pcb.com/?page_id=187
 http://audiobyte.net/products/hydra-z
 http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0195/8522/products/HZ_top.jpg
 http://www.odysseyaudiohk.com/image/hydra-z-internal1.jpg
  
 p.s.
 By the way in tanlyAudio and AudioByte Hydra Z are used oscillators: 49.152000MHz and 45.158400MHz like in Gustard U12


----------



## ccschua

hi
  
 i am thinking of changing the power supply of U12.
  
 I have 2 TPS LDO.
  
 saw that the U12 is using 2 LT 317A regulators. can I just replace the output voltage directly ?


----------



## m0reilly

i'm loving my u12/x12 combo, though at this point any modding will be done via my on going subwoofer integration. in my system, the gustard components are sweet/complete in their intended roles.


----------



## pakultra

Just got my Gustard U12. I am wondering if there is a way if at all to bypass its USB power switch function so that I can use it without USB power. Any help would be much appreciated.
  
 Also, anyone has the latest WaveIO 2.26 driver available? It would be sweet to try 2.26 with spytool...


----------



## Alexsander

pakultra said:


> Just got my Gustard U12. I am wondering if there is a way if at all to bypass its USB power switch function so that *I can use it without USB power*. Any help would be much appreciated.
> 
> Also, anyone has the latest WaveIO 2.26 driver available? It would be sweet to try 2.26 with spytool...


 
 Why you want to use U12 without USB power? 
 U12 it use as ONLY switch (on/off)...
 In the device *not used usb power!*
  
  
_• smart switch, USB has a current interface to boot.Interface with the computer switch and switch machine(computer to be set off USB power failure), or unplug theUSB cable directly to the shutdown.• smart switch, USB has a current interface to boot.Interface with the computer switch and switch machine(computer to be set off USB power failure), or unplug theUSB cable directly to the shutdown."_


----------



## abartels

alexsander said:


> Why you want to use U12 without USB power?
> U12 it use as ONLY switch (on/off)...
> In the device *not used usb power!*
> 
> ...


 
  
 You should know it uses USB-GROUND instead of ground from powercord. Thats why seperate usb power with U12 sounds definitely BETTER.
 USB Ground is polluted, and i wonder why Gustard implemented it this way.
  
 I will try to seperate it and use ground from IEC320 this weekend.
  
 To be continued


----------



## pakultra

My custom USB cable has only data wires and no power wires (cable shield connected to computer end only) so as to isolate any possible USB power pollution. My cable works with NAD D 1050 perfectly. But since U12 uses USB power to switch on its relay, my data only USB cable doesn't work. The relay's model number is *JQC-3F. ​*Here is a link to the schematics from the relay switch's manufacturer's site.
  
 http://www.qianji.com/en/cpshow.asp?id=226
  
 It seems it would be easy to bypass the relay switch. Will this work? Or does it needs to be provided a ground in addition to the relay bypass to make it work?


----------



## Alexsander

pakultra said:


> My custom USB cable has only data wires and no power wires (cable shield connected to computer end only) so as to isolate any possible USB power pollution. My cable works with NAD D 1050 perfectly. But since U12 uses USB power to switch on its relay, my data only USB cable doesn't work. The relay's model number is *JQC-3F. ​*Here is a link to the schematics from the relay switch's manufacturer's site.
> 
> http://www.qianji.com/en/cpshow.asp?id=226
> 
> It seems it would be easy to bypass the relay switch. Will this work? Or does it needs to be provided a ground in addition to the relay bypass to make it work?


 
 How your usb cable is called?
It is possible to put a jumper (remove JQC-3F) ​


----------



## Alexsander

abartels said:


> You should know it uses USB-GROUND instead of ground from powercord. Thats why seperate usb power with U12 sounds definitely BETTER.
> USB Ground is polluted, and i wonder why Gustard implemented it this way.
> 
> I will try to seperate it and use ground from IEC320 this weekend.
> ...


 
 USB-*GROUND from computer* it is necessary for data (D+ and D-) transmission work.
 Use ground from IEC320 doubtfully (imho)... usual work mode usb will be broken and *XMOS not started* detection data....


----------



## ccschua

has anyone compared the MX-U8 to the off ramp 5 or the hydrabyte Z ? 
  
 the only feature missing in MX-U8 is the HDMI.


----------



## genclaymore

I got my Gustard U12 from the thread starter, I didn't think i would notice any thing in compared to the Peachtree X1 usb to spdif converter but I did more then what i expected. I don't know how to put it in words I now just waiting for the gustard H10 just gotta wait for massdrop to do it think.


----------



## pakultra

There are commercially available data-only USB cables but they are expensive. I just cut off the red and black power wires of a Belkin Gold cable and cut off the shielding at the DAC end too. I checked with a multimeter that only the two data wires are connected between my computer and my NAD D 1050. Not the shield, not the ground, not the positive. This works beautifully with Nad and it proves that at least some DAC's usb input does not need any ground from computer to work. Interestingly, the Nad D 1050 doesn't seem to be grounded to AC power outlet either. It uses a switch type power block to provide 5V DC to the DAC. There are only two wires going from the power block to the Nad: the positive and the negative 5V DC wires.


----------



## m0reilly

small slices of electrical tape on the contacts in question at the computer side of cable also work if you do not want to do any slicing and/or dicing/spending small fortune on data-only cables. i don't see issue re leaving sleeve ground intact, or the 5v ground for that matter.


----------



## Alexsander

pakultra said:


> There are commercially available data-only USB cables but they are expensive. I just cut off the red and black power wires of a Belkin Gold cable and cut off the shielding at the DAC end too. I checked with a multimeter that only the two data wires are connected between my computer and my NAD D 1050. *Not the shield, not the ground, not the positive*. This *works beautifully* with Nad and it proves that at least some DAC's usb input does not need any ground from computer to work. Interestingly, the Nad D 1050 doesn't seem to be grounded to AC power outlet either. It uses a switch type power block to provide 5V DC to the DAC. There are only two wires going from the power block to the Nad: the positive and the negative 5V DC wires.


 
 Hmmm....
 if it so, then is possible to make special adapter:


----------



## m0reilly

yes, an adapter will fit the bill easily. if you purchase somewhat expensive cables, the 'tape mod' is a safe alternative re cable alterations. the adapter option would be an easy choice


----------



## hgpsemaj

superceded.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> superceded.


 
  
 I will try to make cable today and test, but, PCB U12 needs ground, so using GND IEC320 and connect to USB Chassis connector


----------



## rurika

> http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/1356208/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL


 
 Well, I actually use that Teradak 9v and 5v LPSU. It came with adapter like in the picture but I didn't use it (cause I have Acoustic Revive usb cable with separate data cable and +5v cable).
 Didn't even test the U12 with regular usb cable cause I'm too lazy to do that .... (the +5v end always connect to Teradak LPSU)
  
 Even W4S dac with usb input that use Galvanic isolation still improve when feed it with +5v from LPSU.


----------



## Alexsander

rurika said:


> Well, I actually use that Teradak 9v and 5v LPSU. It *came with adapter like in the picture* but I didn't use it (cause I have Acoustic Revive usb cable with separate data cable and +5v cable).
> Didn't even test the U12 with regular usb cable cause I'm too lazy to do that .... (the +5v end always connect to Teradak LPSU)
> 
> Even W4S dac with usb input that use Galvanic isolation still improve when feed it with +5v from LPSU.


 
 if you used a cable from a kit: (in it *shield is connected*!)........ or not (I am not sure).....?


----------



## rurika

I'm not sure what the shield that you are talking about but it looks exactly the same as your picture.


----------



## Alexsander

rurika said:


> I'm not sure what the shield that you are talking about but it looks exactly the same as your picture.


 
 you can check a tester ?
 I will do DIY adapter as on the scheme (Scheme Special USB-Audio Adapter)


----------



## abartels

Why not buy cheap USB card from Apexi? The new Elfidelity AXF-100 II ( Pro ) version is an updated version with galvanic isolation for power.
 You can feed it with external supply, regulated, non-regulated and Battery power!
  
 I ordered mine at Head-Fi member hpgsemaj, he's very helpfull 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Btw, this card only cost about $50 , it's a real bargain 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  



  
  
 The translation is from "Mr. Google", so it's a litle gibberish, but it explains a lot.
  
 Elfidelity AXF100 Pro - USB isolator audio filter for PC

 Perfect product for anyone using a PC or HTPC as a source with a converter (DAC)

  

 USB.

 Componentbased and highend connectivity, it will clean the USB port of the noise

 by the switching power supply while allowing injection if you wish 5V "clean" from an

 external source (battery, power supply Linear etc. ..).
  
 This product integrates an advanced power management can automatically switch if for

 example the external power supply were to no longer power the module correctly.

  

 Specifications:

 Maximum current: 5A

 Maximum Power: 25W

 Automatic power switching speed: <5ms

 Ripple factor: <1Hz

 Japanese capacitors

 Shielded Inductors TDK

 Takamisawa Relais Japanese

 Dimensions (PCB): 90 x 60 mm

 Weight: 130 g

  

 Green light (DATA)prompt in the builtin power supply state

 Red Light (External Power)prompt in external power supply state

 Yellow light (Build in Power)prompt whether USB signal access

  

 For the protection of USB signals:

 • Native nonbridging

 USB signal access, starting from the bus and drive to find the most simple level design, to avoid jitter.

  

 • Hardware layer in strict accordance with the design specifications differential traces,

 through industrial level of EMI test

  

 • Builtin power supply directly introduced from the power source, completely isolated USB bus power, avoiding the motherboard, other electrical equipment interference

  

 • Multiband, progressive times, the ultimate power filter design provides high stability, highpurity current

  

 • Power dynamic compensation technology, large dynamic automatic compensation, providing constant ripple

  

 • Less than 1Hz pure power! Multimode power input seamless switching, intelligent protection design

  

  

 For USBpowered

 security:

 • internal and external selfpowered identification, automatic switching, selfprotection.

 external power supply is lower than 4.8 V or removed, automatically and seamlessly switch back to the builtin

 power supply. Device is not lost, not be damaged.

  

 • Shutdown automatically disconnect the external power supply to ensure USB audio device completely powered off, prevent no signal load to damage to the equipment, energysaving external power supply. 

 Intelligent power optimization design.

  

 Choose a variety of external power supply, especially designed for optimizing the use of battery

 power

  

 • Automatic monitoring, when battery loss of pressure and removed automatically switch builtin power supply, without having to manually select

  

 • Automatic shut off external power supply, protective equipment, to save battery

  

 • Filter mobile power supply ripple boost circuit
  
  
  
  
 So, no hastle with self-made adapters, this is just perfect!


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Why not buy cheap USB card from Apexi? The new Elfidelity AXF-100 II ( Pro ) version is an updated version with galvanic isolation for power.
> You can feed it with external supply, regulated, non-regulated and Battery power!
> 
> I ordered mine at Head-Fi member hpgsemaj, he's very helpfull
> ...


 
   
  
 Please be informed that I do not do including postage postal service any more.
  
 Hence, the price for each of the *'Elfidelity USB II card AXF-100 Pro' *is RMB148.00 excluding transportation cost and postage.


----------



## pakultra

I have tried Elfidelity usb card (AXF-100 pro) and it does sound better than without it. This makes me believe that U12 will sound even better if we can mod it so that it does not need usb power anymore. Even the "Cleanest" usb power will not sound as good as No usb power. 
  
 Has anyone tried bypassing the U12's USB power relay switch exactly the way it is shown below?
  

  
 The upper part of the picture is the original schematic of the JQC-3F relay that U12 uses. The lower part is how it can be bypassed simply by using a hookup wire to connect two spots like the way the red line is drawn. This should put U12 into a permanently powered on mode, so that it does not need usb power to turn on. 
  
 I am thinking about bypassing the relay this way and using my data-only cable with U12 so that there will be Zero pollution from USB power. 
  
 Has anyone tried this already? Does it work?


----------



## abartels

pakultra said:


> I have tried Elfidelity usb card (AXF-100 pro) and it does sound better than without it. This makes me believe that U12 will sound even better if we can mod it so that it does not need usb power anymore. Even the "Cleanest" usb power will not sound as good as No usb power.
> 
> Has anyone tried bypassing the U12's USB power relay switch exactly the way it is shown below?
> 
> ...


 
  
 pakultra,
  
 Good to hear AXF-100 Pro increases SQ on U12.
  
 Bypassing relay is not the solution. Problem is GROUND NOISE. And, ground noise interferes with Data +/-
  
 AXF-100 Pro is galvanic seperated and should prohibit ground noise from pc interfering Data +/- to U12.
  
 Best is to use AXF-100 Pro with battery power. No noise at all.
  
  
 I wanted to test last weekend but didn't had time for it. Will check it as soon as possible.


----------



## pakultra

abertels,
  
 Thank you for your advice.
  
 Did you mean that you tried bypassing the relay by connecting those two points with a hookup wire and this did put U12 to work but it just didn't sound good because of "ground noise"? 
  
 Did you also try using a data-only cable after bypassing the relay so that there was no power or ground connected to U12's USB port at all?
  
 By the way, 2.26 driver is out:
  
 http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntDUtqp


----------



## prot

pakultra said:


> abertels,
> 
> Thank you for your advice.
> 
> ...




Many thx for the driver link. Did you try it already? Any install issues, SQ changes...


----------



## hgpsemaj

I tried V2.26, it sounds great for me.


----------



## pakultra

The link is for the official 2.26 from Gustard. No need to disable driver signature when installing. It works well for me, but it doesn't have the spytool in it. 
  
 The spytool in the modded WaveIO 2.23 is very useful for checking the performance of different usb ports and different operation systems. I set latency at 1 ms and buffer at 512. I found that some of my usb ports will fail under this setting and that Win server 2012 works better than Win10.
  
 Hope we will get a modded WaveIO 2.26 with its spytool in it.


----------



## Jamiee

pakultra said:


> The link is for the official 2.26 from Gustard. No need to disable driver signature when installing. It works well for me, but it doesn't have the spytool in it.
> 
> The spytool in the modded WaveIO 2.23 is very useful for checking the performance of different usb ports and different operation systems. I set latency at 1 ms and buffer at 512. I found that some of my usb ports will fail under this setting and that Win server 2012 works better than Win10.
> 
> Hope we will get a modded WaveIO 2.26 with its spytool in it.


 
  
 Just as important is the Control Panel app.
 So who's gonna make up a modded set for v2.26?  
  
 Pretty please....


----------



## Cool Barn

jamiee said:


> Just as important is the Control Panel app.
> So who's gonna make up a modded set for v2.26?
> 
> Pretty please....


 
  
  
 That's for sure.  I like being able to select Latency Settings, ASIO Buffer Size, and "Always On" as the streaming mode.  Without that Control Panel I am sticking with 2.24 until a set is ready that includes it.
  
 (A big thank you ahead of time to the boffin who is smart enough to include this  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  )


----------



## Jamiee

cool barn said:


> That's for sure.  I like being able to select Latency Settings, ASIO Buffer Size, and "Always On" as the streaming mode.  Without that Control Panel I am sticking with 2.24 until a set is ready that includes it.
> 
> (A big thank you ahead of time to the boffin who is smart enough to include this
> 
> ...


 
  
 Heck, I've been looking for a full version of v2.24, where did you get it?
 This Thesycon driver licensing stuff can drive a person mad, Lol.


----------



## pakultra

Just found the official TUSB v2.24 here:
  
 http://pan.baidu.com/s/1mgqoxQS
  
  
 Smooth installation. Works great for me.


----------



## abartels

pakultra said:


> abertels,
> 
> Thank you for your advice.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi pakultra,
  
 No, i didn't try that because it's of no importance if you don't have clean, un-polluted ground.
  
 I will wait for Elfidelity AXF-100 Pro USB card which sorts this problem out, non-polluted ground (galvanic seperated) and possibility for battery power.
 I'm sure Gustard didn't build in this relay for fun, so i won't bypass it.
  
 Since whole schematics is based on GND from USB, I'm very sure it's best to connect a 100% clean GND to it.
  
  
 Regards, and many thanks for the new driver (haven't test it btw)
  
 Alex


----------



## abartels

Hi all,
  
 OPPO has two devices called BDP-105(D) and HA-2 which uses XMOS.
  
 They have full driverpackages, but their latest is 2.24.
  
 I will check periodically if they have newer versions available.


----------



## Jamiee

Oh, right....  I Forgot Oppo was using XMOS in their devices.
 I Picked up a BDP-103 last week.  Nice player  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 As for the Oppo drivers: v2.24 is available for the HA-2 (BDP-105 is still on v2.22).
 I'm pretty sure they will need modding to work with the Gustard and/or other devices as there's a good chance the device ID's will be different and we don't know if Oppo has made any special modifications specific to their equipment.


----------



## abartels

jamiee said:


> Oh, right....  I Forgot Oppo was using XMOS in their devices.
> I Picked up a BDP-103 last week.  Nice player
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 You could be right, but i noticed Melodious did send their drivers including TUSB from Oppo, that's why I started searching on their website


----------



## abartels

> Originally Posted by *pakultra*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 *** GOOD NEWS ***
  
 Just got confirmation from my very helpfull middleman hpgsemaj that Elfidelity AXF-100 Pro indeed has isolated USB GROUND.
 This wil bring us on a much higher SQ level 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 even when used with cheap wallmart, but off course, batterypower is best 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 I'm going to design a little relay-switchbox which will power-off batterycharger when turning on AudioPC and will power-on batterycharger when AudioPC shuts off.
 This way I can take all the benefits from batterypower (I use a XIAOMI 10400mAH 4x18650 based powerbank) without having to charge it manually


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> *** GOOD NEWS ***
> 
> Just got confirmation from my very helpfull middleman hpgsemaj that Elfidelity AXF-100 Pro indeed has isolated USB GROUND.
> This wil bring us on a much higher SQ level :bigsmile_face:  even when used with cheap wallmart, but off course, batterypower is best :bigsmile_face:
> ...




That switchbox sounds like a winner. Do you plan to sell some? Or is there any commercially available one?


----------



## pakultra

I'd like to report that I just tried bypassing the relay like it is shown in red below
  

  
 The U12 turned on fine but my computer does not recognize it with a data-only usb cable. The same cable works well with my Nad D1050 usb input. So the problem lies not with my PC or my cable. 
  
 Of course, as soon as I switch to a regular usb cable, my pc starts to see U12 and everything starts to work.
  
 It seems that even though U12 is turned on, it still needs to sense the presence of usb power before it starts to send out data to communicate with my computer. Anyway to get around this? Is there a way to trigger U12 to start communicating with PC without the 5V power connection?


----------



## Alexsander

pakultra said:


> I'd like to report that I just tried bypassing the relay like it is shown in red below
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Try to return USB Ground in cable. 
 It has to work (into cable must be: D+, D-, GND)


----------



## stuartmc

Now this one surprised the heck out of me....I dusted off my Audio Alchemy DTI Pro 32 with the power station 4 and inserted it between the U12 and X12. I set it on 24 bit dither and it sounds amazing when using Tidal from my tablet. Deeper bass, better imaging and the midrange is more lush. I can switch directly between this feed and a direct I2S connection and the improvement with the DTI is unmistakable. Holy cow, I'm going to pull out more of this old school stuff from my Audio closet!


----------



## pakultra

I've found a work around!
  
 D+, D- and Ground didn't work - the computer still doesn't see my U12.
  
 It turns out that U12 needs usb power for handshake ONLY. 
  
 I made a cable like this:
  

  
 One cable for data, and one for power. Plug in the data, then plug in the power, the computer will see U12 immediately, then just unplug the power. U12 will keep working beautifully with my computer without any usb power. Now, finally, I can completely get rid of usb power pollution.
  
 The only problem is, after rebooting my computer, U12 will be lost. I will have to plug in power for a second to make it seen and then unplug the power again.
  
 The good news is that U12 sounds its best now. The bad news? My newly bought Elfidelity usb card seems useless for now...


----------



## genclaymore

What about some kind of power adapter with a switch on it to turn off the power and back again at a press of a button. So you don't gotta reach around and pull it out to do it. That way you plug the power side into it. If you get what i mean.


----------



## pakultra

genclaymore said:


> What about some kind of power adapter with a switch on it to turn off the power and back again at a press of a button. So you don't gotta reach around and pull it out to do it. That way you plug the power side into it. If you get what i mean.


 
  
 Good idea!
  
 I will try to find a nice DPST switch to do this more elegantly. Meanwhile, I hope we will still be able to find a way to get rid of the usb power handshake requirement. My NAD D 1050 doesn't need power handshake, why must U12 need it?.


----------



## hgpsemaj

pakultra said:


> Good idea!
> 
> I will try to find a nice DPST switch to do this more elegantly. Meanwhile, I hope we will still be able to find a way to get rid of the usb power handshake requirement. My NAD D 1050 doesn't need power handshake, why must U12 need it?.


 
  
 For XMOS derivative version of the standard design, it connects the *GROUND *with the computer via the USB cable.
  
 For high-end model, they got their own designed galvanic separate power supply. Mr. Huang of Gustard claimed the truly galvanic separate in our market at this moment is 'Hydra Z' of Audiobyte.
  
 Does 'NAD D 1050' run by Xmos?
  
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## pakultra

hgpsemaj said:


> pakultra said:
> 
> 
> > Good idea!
> ...


 
  
 Yes NAD D 1050 uses Xmos and I've using the same V2.23 driver with Nad before I added U12 to the link. That's why I am sure Xmos can run without ground or Vcc. 
  
 I just found an interesting article from XMOS publications:
  
 https://www.xmos.com/download/public/XMOS-USB-Device-%28XUD%29-Library-%28documentation%29%282.2.1rc0.a%29.pdf
  
 On page 12 it says this:
  
 4.1.2 PwrConfig
 The PwrConfig parameter to XUD_Manager() indicates if the device is bus or self-powered.
 Valid values for this parameter are XUD_PWR_SELF and XUD_PWR_BUS.
 When XUD_PWR_SELF is used, XUD_Manager() monitors the VBUS input for a valid voltage and
 reponds appropriately. *The USB Specification states that the devices pull-ups must be disabled
 when a valid VBUS is not present. This is important when submitting a device for compliance
 testing since this is explicitly tested.*
 If the device is bus-powered XUD_PWR_SELF can be used since is assumed that the device is not
 powered up when VBUS is not present and therefore no voltage monitoring is required. In this
 configuration the VBUS input to the device/PHY need not be present.
*XUD_PWR_BUS can be used in order to run on a self-powered board without provision for VBUS
 wiring to the PHY/device*, but this is not advised.
  
 This explains why U12 disables its data communication until a valid USB power is sensed. It does this to pass USB compliance test.
  
 This also tell us that there are very simple ways to disable the VBus monitoring function: we will need Gustard to issue a special firmware that changes its PwrConfig from XUD_PWR_SELF to XUD_PWR_BUS, this will tell the machine not to check for USB power presence.
  
 Or, we will need someone who knows how to mod an existing firmware to change its PwrConfig status to bypass Vcc check. 
  
 Nad has issued several firmware updates for its D1050 since its launch. Perhaps it is time that Gustard issued a special firmware update for us who'd like to run U12 without Vcc?


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> That switchbox sounds like a winner. Do you plan to sell some? Or is there any commercially available one?


 
 I don't plan to sell one, and i don't know if they are commercially available, but i will explain how to make one yourself later on.


----------



## AKAI

Question for my U12
  
 I received my Gustard U12 yesterday, I was able to use it through my Vortexbox with both my W4S DAC2 (AES/EBU), and my Marantz SA8005 (Coax). It was working fine, I turned off the Vortexbox and the U12 turned off itself (I think it went into the stand by mode), I could hear a click from the U12.
  
 After dinner, I tried to fire up the U12 again, it showed correct resolution from my Vortexbox both 44.1 and 88.2, both of my DACs showed correct resolution corresponding to the Vortexbox and the U12, however, THERE WAS NO SOUD!!
  
 It appears as if both of my DACs received the signal from the U12 but Unable to Decode?  I am not sure what happened as am seeking explanations from those that are familiar with the unit., There is no ON/OFF switch on the U12 or a reset switch and I am at a loss on what happened.
  
 My set up is Vortexbox USB -> Gustard U12 AES/EBU -> W4S DAC2
                                                   Gustard U12 Coax -> Marantz SA 8005
  
 Both were working fine but now NO SOUND as if both DACs are unable to decode the signal from the U12.
  
 Thanks,
  
 Akai


----------



## hgpsemaj

pakultra said:


> I've found a work around!
> 
> D+, D- and Ground didn't work - the computer still doesn't see my U12.
> 
> ...


 
  
 This could be a solution, save up the time a bit and more economical. It offers 0.75m, 1.5m, 1m, 2m or 3m for the same price RMB131.10 excluding postage.


----------



## prot

akai said:


> Question for my U12
> 
> I received my Gustard U12 yesterday, I was able to use it through my Vortexbox with both my W4S DAC2 (AES/EBU), and my Marantz SA8005 (Coax). It was working fine, I turned off the Vortexbox and the U12 turned off itself (I think it went into the stand by mode), I could hear a click from the U12.
> 
> ...




Did you try restarting everything again? And/or connect only one Gustard output. Also make sure that everything is fine without the gustard in the chain. 

If all that fails you may have a defective unit and you'll have to contact support.


----------



## AKAI

Thanks Prot, tried unplugged, restarted, unplugged USB from both Vortexbox and U12, nothing.  Reduced the output to just Coax, no sound.
  
 Frustrated and puzzled, it was working fine when I first received it. Still looks like the U12 sends the signal to the DACs but the DACs can't decode it.
  
 What is wrong with it?


----------



## prot

akai said:


> Thanks Prot, tried unplugged, restarted, unplugged USB from both Vortexbox and U12, nothing.  Reduced the output to just Coax, no sound.
> 
> Frustrated and puzzled, it was working fine when I first received it. Still looks like the U12 sends the signal to the DACs but the DACs can't decode it.
> 
> What is wrong with it?



Did you install any special drivers on that vortexbox? Could be that it recognized/configured the gustard wrong after the restart. Slim chances but just try another source. 
If everything works fine without the gustard in the chain and another source fails too I'm out of ideas.


----------



## AKAI

Thanks Prot, tried almost everything, no driver on my VB.
 I just tried my Augio-GD DI-2014 with VB the same way as the U12 and the Audio-GD works flawlessly.
 I also tried USB from my VB directly into my Marantz DAC again, and it works.
 I guess it is the U12 that is defective.
  
 Just trying to find out if anybody knows which part of the U12 causes it to output signal that perhaps corrupted.


----------



## pakultra

I'd like to share with you my some of my test results.
  
 I connected U12's optical out to my Sound Blaster ZXR input and used RAMM6 to measure how U12 scores with different power supply and connection alternatives.
  
 Test link: pc => Elfidelity card => U12 input => U12 optical out => ZXR optical in 
  
 Here are the results:
  

  

  
  
 In terms of performance, Elfidelity +5V > D+, D- , motherboard ground > D+, D- only > motherboard +5V.
  
 The biggest differences can be seen in noise level, THD and stereo crosstalk.
  
 Please note that these tests are done with Belkin Gold usb cable. Belkin Gold's power wires and data wires are not shielded from each other, so they are more susceptible to power pollutions.  
  
 Next I will test a 3 wire connection (D+, D- and Elfidelity ground only).


----------



## conquerator2

Damn, that 0.4 dBa in noise level and 2dB in stereo crosstalk is sure to make a significant improvement! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Joking aside, the galvanic isolation would be the biggest draw for me.


----------



## rurika

Hi, look like some of us already got their MX-U8.
 So, how's the sound when compare to U12 ??


----------



## MINORISUKE

rurika said:


> Hi, look like some of us already got their MX-U8.
> So, how's the sound when compare to U12 ??


 

 I am not good at describing sound impression in words (particularly in foreign languages).  rb2013 has already written his first impression.  I would say "more elegant" than U12.
  
 MX-U8 sound has not changed so drastically after burn-in.  All of you know that U12 needs 100 hours.
 My first comparison was PCM 44.1kHz and 192kHz via AES/EBU.  U12 has reached a certain level but MX-U8 describes more in details.
 Then I switched from AES/EBU to I2S on MX-U8, which resulted in less lively sound.  But later, I found I2S more subtle than AES/EBU.
 Now I fix my connection of MX-U8 via I2S only.
  
 My motivation to buy MX-U8 was its I2S output both for PCM and DSD direct.
 However, there occurs a channel mix (not channel swap) for DSD files.  PCM playback is correct. Melodious insists that nothing is wrong with their product.
 My next step is to get a HDMI LVDS I2S board from Tanly (which I ordered with help of a Chinese from Taobao) and to connect U12 via I2S to see if U12 plays DSD files without channel mix.  Then I will be able to identify the cause, whether it lies in MX-U8 or in my DAC.  I made a cable by myself.  It consists of 4 cables (DATA, LRCK, BCK, GND) and it is very unlikely that I made a mistake for pin assignment, as PCM playback is correct.  DSD playback via the built-in USB-I2S board in my DAC is also correct.
  
 I was the first one to introduce MX-U8 to this forum, but cannot recommend this product until the above-mentiond DSD issue has been solved.  If there is anybody who owns MX-U8 and a DAC with I2S/DSD direct input (not via HDMI LVDS I2S), I want to know whether channel mix in DSD happens.


----------



## SodaBoy

I heard some guy in Japan found that the DSD channels were inverted in an older Gustard DAC, I think it was either the X9 or X10. I don't use DSD though so I can't really help there.


----------



## hgpsemaj

For some reasons, I've encountered couple of MX-U8s. For the exterior, they changed its feet and USB input from silver to golden, and both of the lids are still secured in a very tightr fashion.
 When it comes to musical playback, if the resolution of the treble reachs certain level, airy would emerge. I am so surprised I could hear airy from the playback of MX-U8, I must admit MX-U8 presented a much higher resolution than I expect.
 Perhaps I paired Driver Version 2.26 to the second one that I tested, the resolution was even stronger. I've raised this query to Mr.Liu today, and expecting his confirmation.
  
 For fair and even comparsion, we shall well aware their recommended retail price:
 Gustard U12 = RMB750.
 Melodious Audio = RMB1,200.


----------



## motberg

I had my MX-U8 i2S configured by Mr. Liu to match my Audio GD Master 7.... worked perfectly right out of the box, and drivers rock solid with JPlay 5x. I am using a cheap 0.3m CAT7 cable. I only have about 30 hours on these pieces, but sound quality is beyond my expectations so far. I checked channels R/L are OK, but I do not have any direct DSD capability. I can start the MX-U8 with no 5V power in the USB cable (it is too early to check SQ comparisons with/without the 5V).
  
 I have a stock U12 also that I will try to make a comparison and also a new Audio-GD DI-2014, but this will take at least a month....


----------



## Jamiee

Is Shenzhen Audio shipping any of the latest revision MX-U8's yet?


----------



## MINORISUKE

jamiee said:


> Is Shenzhen Audio shipping any of the latest revision MX-U8's yet?


 

 You had better ask them directly.  They are closed from 30 April to 03 May.


----------



## stuartmc

Thanks to you guys on the Tanly tip, I have just purchased one for review purposes. Tam at Tanly has been most gracious and I hope to get some interesting personal information from him - his background, design philosophy and some specifics on his design choices. That kind of stuff is fascinating to me and makes me appreciate an audio component above and beyond the price/performance analysis. I will have my Gustard U12 on hand for direct comparison and may possibly have the MX-U8 as well. I am intending to write this up for PF, but will share some of my impressions right here with the crew of the SS Gustard. Thanks again guys for the sleuthing and the insightful discourse.


----------



## Voltot

Hey, new 2.26 XMOS driver sounds much different then Luckit 2.24 WaveIO for me.
 More natural, richer tones, deeper soundstage but little less transparent.


----------



## rurika

Thanks, Minorisuke for sharing your impression.


----------



## abartels

Quote:


abartels said:


> I will try to make cable today and test, but, PCB U12 needs ground, so using GND IEC320 and connect to USB Chassis connector


 
  
  
 Today I opened my U12 again and soldered a wire from GROUNDPIN IEC320 inlet to NEGATIVE lead of one of the Panasonic FC's, which is GROUND for whole U12 circuit.
 Then i cut GROUND and black NEGATIVE wire from USB cable at PC-side.
  
 This works! So, now we have clean ground (i have mainsfilter and ground is "clean"), no ground noise from PC, and 5V wire is only used for turning on relay U12.
 No need for batterypower anymore 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Again, more airy, more black around voices, bigger wider soundstage.
  
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Alex


----------



## abartels

I am still waiting for my MX-U8 (which is at customs at The Netherlands) to arrive, hope I receive it next week so I can compare stock MX-U8 with my heavily modded U12.


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Today I opened my U12 again and soldered a wire from GROUNDPIN IEC320 inlet to NEGATIVE lead of one of the Panasonic FC's, which is GROUND for whole U12 circuit.
> Then i cut GROUND and black NEGATIVE wire from USB cable at PC-side.
> 
> This works! So, now we have clean ground (i have mainsfilter and ground is "clean"), no ground noise from PC, and 5V wire is only used for turning on relay U12.
> ...


 
  
 Maestro,
  
 Congratulations on your new finding, this must be the greatest ever open up for Gustard U12. 
  
 Cheers  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Riemann


----------



## mz2014

I think so too. Abartels, could you draw a connection diagram. Thanks


----------



## Voltot

abartels said:


> Today I opened my U12 again and soldered a wire from GROUNDPIN IEC320 inlet to NEGATIVE lead of one of the Panasonic FC's, which is GROUND for whole U12 circuit.
> Then i cut GROUND and black NEGATIVE wire from USB cable at PC-side.
> 
> This works! So, now we have clean ground (i have mainsfilter and ground is "clean"), no ground noise from PC, and 5V wire is only used for turning on relay U12.
> ...


 
  
 Damn... i dont have ground wire at my apartment.


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Maestro,
> 
> Congratulations on your new finding, this must be the greatest ever open up for Gustard U12.
> 
> ...


 
  
 You're too kind 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I didn't took a picture, but i did draw a red line where i connected the wire:
  

  
 For those who don't have earthwire available at home, you can try making a ground connection to some sort of heater radiator or waterpipe, at least if they aren't made from PVC but from copper.
 It's not the best grounding solution but it comes close and it's better than no grounding at all.


----------



## Jamiee

minorisuke said:


> You had better ask them directly.  They are closed from 30 April to 03 May.


 

 Just got word that my MX-U8 is shipping today.
 Very much looking forward to it...


----------



## Alexsander

abartels said:


> Today I opened my U12 again and soldered a wire from GROUNDPIN IEC320 inlet to NEGATIVE lead of one of the Panasonic FC's, which is GROUND for whole U12 circuit.
> Then i* cut GROUND and black NEGATIVE wire* from USB cable at PC-side.
> 
> This works! So, now we have clean ground (i have mainsfilter and ground is "clean"), no ground noise from PC, and 5V wire is only used for turning on relay U12.
> ...


 
_"cut GROUND and black NEGATIVE wire from usb cable"_
  
 http://i.imgur.com/wt6ha.png
 In scheme usb cable:
 black wire = GND
  
 You too cut off the shield in cable?
 Interestingly how works +5V without GND (-) and shield?


----------



## abartels

alexsander said:


> _"cut GROUND and black NEGATIVE wire from usb cable"_
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/wt6ha.png
> In scheme usb cable:
> ...


 
  
 Yes, cut black wire (some call it just -, and others GND) AND ground shield.


----------



## Alexsander

I had an idea!
 to use Teralink ADuM4160 USB Isolator board, but D+ and D- to connect separately direct from computer.
 http://www.ab-system.hk/index.php?route=product/product&path=73&product_id=63
  
 In this case will be isolated : usb Vcc (+5V) and shield and GND!!!


----------



## hgpsemaj

In fact, Noratel do offer primary input voltage 110V/60Hz, but quite dear:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Noratel-Toroidal-Transformer-110V-N10373-/301107269466?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item461b644f5a


----------



## m0reilly

voltot said:


> Hey, new 2.26 XMOS driver sounds much different then Luckit 2.24 WaveIO for me.
> More natural, richer tones, deeper soundstage but little less transparent.


 

 is this with the u12? if so, how did you get the u12 to be seen by your OS? i tried several times but no luck getting windows to recognize the u12...


----------



## prot

For the DYI-ers around here, there are other XMOS boards which look pretty good:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/upgrade-TCXO-0-1ppm-XMOS-U8-chip-DSD-USB-to-coxial-optical-I2S-spdif-ASIO-384k-/131488336528
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PCM-DSD-192K-24BIT-XMOS-U8-USB-to-Fiber-Coaxial-Output-I2S-Asynchronous-TCOX-wlx-/151625833761
Since you are opening and replacing all sorts of stuff in your convertors, those could be better/cheaper solutions.
(disclaimer: did not try the boards and no idea who the sellers are)


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> For the DYI-ers around here, another XMOS board which looks pretty good.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/upgrade-TCXO-0-1ppm-XMOS-U8-chip-DSD-USB-to-coxial-optical-I2S-spdif-ASIO-384k-/131488336528
> Since you are opening and replacing all sorts of stuff in your convertors, this could be a better/cheaper solution.
> (disclaimer: did not try the board and no idea who the seller is)


 
  
 Hi Prot,
  
 Could be an option, it's not cheap if you compare with U12 including psu and enclosure,,,,
 But I agree, it's more convenient to use seperate pcb's and build your own DDC in enclosure.
  
 Maybe I will, some day,,,,,


----------



## zaccio

I have one of them and it work very well if feed by 9v regulated battery. I ordered NDK NZ2520SD but I don't think I'm able to solder them (2x2.5mm I need microscope...) but this board is very promising TanlyAudio design 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=0.0.0.0.li1MtV&id=18075891198&b=danpin_zhutu_up1


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> Hi Prot,
> 
> Could be an option, it's not cheap if you compare with U12 including psu and enclosure,,,,
> But I agree, it's more convenient to use seperate pcb's and build your own DDC in enclosure.
> ...




For someone who wants a device which "just works", the U12 is definitely the cheapest/best solution. But you guys are replacing all those extras anyway (enclosure, trafo, regulators, caps, etc) and those simple boards should be a better start.


----------



## Hun7er

Hi,
  
 Where can I download the 2.26 version ?


----------



## hgpsemaj

zaccio said:


> I have one of them and it work very well if feed by 9v regulated battery. I ordered NDK NZ2520SD but I don't think I'm able to solder them (2x2.5mm I need microscope...) but this board is very promising TanlyAudio design
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 This is definitely a contender, 
  

Using three NDK NZ2520SD Ultra low phase noise oscillator
Batch 8pcs+ includes free microsoft windows signed driver and device name shown as genuine XMOS USB Audio
 
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/58-xmos-dsd-dxd-384khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2s-pcb.html#/xmos_option-xmos_and_led_pcb


----------



## auvgeek

Like many lately, I grabbed a vintage DAC (PCM only, as per usual with these) so I need a USB transport. The DAC has inputs for AES/EBU and coax. Right now, it seems like the best price/performance is to connect via AES from the MX-U8, but I'm also considering coax from the DI-2014. Any thoughts or advice? Do people who have heard both think the MX-U8 is worth the extra $80 USD over the U12? I don't know much about the Tanly offering; does anyone have a direct link to the product? I searched this thread and clicked on a link that wouldn't load, but couldn't find much else.


----------



## abartels

alexsander said:


> I had an idea!
> to use Teralink ADuM4160 USB Isolator board, but D+ and D- to connect separately direct from computer.
> http://www.ab-system.hk/index.php?route=product/product&path=73&product_id=63
> 
> In this case will be isolated : usb Vcc (+5V) and shield and GND!!!


 
  
 Very good tip!
 I will try this one for MX-U8!
  
 Thanks for sharing


----------



## mz2014

Hi everyone.
 Which USB interface will be the best and how can I plug it to DAC board ( if it will work ? ).
 Thanks
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/69-isolated-xmos-dsd-dxd-384khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb-with-ultralow-noise-regulator.html#/xmos_option-xmos_pcb
 http://www.audiophonics.fr/en/interfaces/amanero-combo-384-digital-interface-usb-384khz-to-i2sdsd-p-7403.html
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=0.0.0.0.li1MtV&id=18075891198&b=danpin_zhutu_up1


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> This is definitely a contender,
> 
> 
> Using three NDK NZ2520SD Ultra low phase noise oscillator
> ...


 
  
 Nice find hgpsemaj!
  
 It looks that i will build my own DDC real soon


----------



## abartels

New find:
  
 This one is even isolated (NZ2520SD's for audio on isolated side,,,) - this means you can feed them with seperate powersupply!
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/69-isolated-xmos-dsd-dxd-384khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb-with-ultralow-noise-regulator.html
  

  
  
  
 HDMI - print:
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.0.0.VKHlno&id=41715842497
  

  
  
 The USB isolator:
  
 http://www.ab-system.hk/index.php?route=product/product&path=73&product_id=63
  
  

  
  
 The regulator (it's double version, one for xmos pcb, one for NDK NZ2520SD's)
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/73-08uv-ultralow-noise-dac-power-supply-regulator-33v5v-1ax2.html
  

  
 Who can find a nice aluminium enclosure with thick black anodised and brushed faceplate?
  
  
 Cheers


----------



## prot

abartels said:
			
		

> Who can find a nice aluminium enclosure with thick black anodised and brushed faceplate?
> 
> 
> Cheers




Something which will work http://www.ebay.com/itm/400524540484. 
Prolly a million of those on ebay. Just ask that shop for the exact model you want, they seem to have quite a lot of options. 

And good luck with the build, the plan looks very good.


----------



## korn-fi

Can it work at USB high speed ?


----------



## pakultra

I did it!
  
 Now my U12 can work like my Nad D 1050 with 2-wire USB cables (D+ and D- only, no USB positive, no negative, no shield connection).
  
 Here is how:
  
 Step 1) the U12 relay needs to be bypassed by a separate wire, and
  
 Step 2) the U12 ground needs to be connected to U12 IEC ground (this removes the need for USB ground or Shield)
  
 Step 3) the XMOS must be either A) taught not to check for USB positive power by changing corresponding instructions in its firmware or B) tricked into believing it has seen usb power while there is none;
  
 A) can only be done by changing corresponding instructions in Gustard firmware; until a modified firmware is made available, we can do B), which is what I just did. I connected U12's own +5 positive power to its USB socket's Vcc pinout through a D4004 diode.
  
 Originally, I wanted to use a pull up resistor. I tried 820k, 470k and 200 ohm but none of them worked. I don't have smaller resistors on hand. So, for the time being, I will settle for a diode. However the diode only protects U12, it can not prevent U12's power from flowing out to computer USB port if accidentally connected with a regular USB cable. Caution has to be taken not to connect USB Vcc to a modded U12.
  
 Still, we need Gustard to make a modified firmware so that there will be no need to do B) in step 3.
  
 Finally, I'd like to thank our excellent forum members *hgpsemaj* for helping make this mod possible and *abartels *for pioneering ground connection to IEC!
  
 Cheers!


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> New find:
> 
> This one is even isolated (NZ2520SD's for audio on isolated side,,,) - this means you can feed them with seperate powersupply!
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hello Abartels,
  
 Let's do it once and for all. How about pair all these up?
  
 http://soekris.com/products/audio-products/dam1021-01.html

  
The dam1021 is a DAC module based on a discrete R-2R sign magnitude DAC design, with FPGA based FIFO buffering/reclocking and custom digital filters, < 1 ps jitter clock generator, with 28 bit resolution so there is headroom, oversampling up to 3.072 Mhz. Up to 24 bit / 384 Khz input from SPDIF, I2S and USB (via USB to I2S interface board), with isolation on the I2S interface. The board is very flexible, with digital volume control and filter parameters that can be downloaded. The board is fully firmware upgradable over a simple serial connection, which enables new features later on. For now we plan to add digital crossover filters soon.

The basis R-2R network has an output voltage of 1.4V RMS and output impedance of 625 ohm and can therefore drive a lot of things directly. There is also onboard balanced output drivers that can drive high impedance (>= 300 ohm) headphones directly. The power supply is also onboard, just add a 5W+ toroid transformer.
  
  
There is a threads/forum on this item, please refer:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/754547/the-soekris-r-2r-dac-technical-details


----------



## hgpsemaj

pakultra said:


> I did it!
> 
> Now my U12 can work like my Nad D 1050 with 2-wire USB cables (D+ and D- only, no USB positive, no negative, no shield connection).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello Pakultra,
  
 Congratulation, really its a very good discovery. It seem our modification works of U12 is going from strength to strength.
  
  
  
 Regards,
  
  
  
 hgpsemaj


----------



## Voltot

Could digital signal D+ D- be "dirty" and influence to sound quality?


----------



## prot

also interested about the eventual SQ improvements ... the modifications seem to be cheap enough and, with some more detailed instructions, even a beginner like me may be able to do it.
But is the SQ so much better than an OOTB Gustard? Also, is it better than a battery and a dualhead USB cable combo? (i.e. clean power for about $50 without even opening the box)

guess what I'm trying to figure out is: are those mods worth the effort and the risk of bricking your U12 !? Even for someone with limited soldering experience !?


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello Abartels,
> 
> Let's do it once and for all. How about pair all these up?
> 
> ...


 
  
 The Soekris R-2-R dac could be a contender, but i'm not 100% sure. There's also a relative new AKM dac (also available at DIYINHK) AK4495SEQ which goes up to 768kHz.
 And, maybe i want to seperate DDC from DAC,,,,


----------



## abartels

pakultra said:


> I did it!
> 
> Now my U12 can work like my Nad D 1050 with 2-wire USB cables (D+ and D- only, no USB positive, no negative, no shield connection).
> 
> ...


 
  
 You're welcome Pakultra!
 Nice find


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> also interested about the eventual SQ improvements ... the modifications seem to be cheap enough and, with some more detailed instructions, even a beginner like me may be able to do it.
> But is the SQ so much better than an OOTB Gustard? Also, is it better than a battery and a dualhead USB cable combo? (i.e. clean power for about $50 without even opening the box)
> 
> guess my Q is: is it worth the effort and the risk of bricking your U12 !?


 
  
 To be honest, the most important upgrade are the XO's, they will bring you a HUGE SQ improvement.
 Replacing caps for psu, changing the rectifiers, decoupling from polluted sub-power/signal, it all helps getting better SQ, but XO's are a MUST.
  
 If i would have to explain in percentages in SQ increase from stock unit until now:
  
 NDK NZ2520SD's                   70%
 Panasonic FC caps                10%
 MUR120 rectifiers                   5%
 USB-decoupling gnd               10%
 3M AB51000S                        5%
  
 I'm aware of the complexity of soldering the NDK's, but if you follow my instructions from earlier post, it is very good doable.
 And, you always could go for the Crysteks, they are much easier to replace the standard clocks.
  
 Bricking U12 doesn't happen when follow instructions carefully. De-soldering components can be a bit tricky, always take
 care that you don't heat too much and not pulling components out while they still are stuck, because otherwise you could
 destroy via's to inner multilayers.
  
 The XO's are simple to replace, if you've got good eyes (which I DON'T have,,,), soldering NDK's is possible, otherwise
 use magnifying glasses.


----------



## hgpsemaj

voltot said:


> Could digital signal D+ D- be "dirty" and influence to sound quality?


 
  
 First of all, usb cable is not designed for carrying SQ audio digital signal, and that's why we have Tanor, Xmos & etc. to convert the format back to SPDIF / AES. And also, we have USB-32 to combat this badly designed cable.
  
 IMO, when those signals(+, -, D+, D-) flow at high speed, they create flux, and under 'moment of inertia', those signals would affect each other and influence to sound quality.
 So, a double usb cable(i.e. Power/Digital) could minimise this phenomenon.


----------



## abartels

korn-fi said:


> Can it work at USB high speed ?


 
  
 To clarify:
  
 You mean the USB isolator from TeraLink?
  
*Teralink TX2 / X1 ADuM4160 USB Isolator board *
  
Teralink ADuM4160 isolator board is breaks electrical connection between USB host and peripheral while allowing data to pass. Design is on Analog Devices ADuM4160 USB Isolator IC. and supports* full/low speed USB 2.0 compatible operation* and peripheral side power up to 600ma. Is very useful addition to any PC based test instrument, USB audio device, as well as any other USB application where elimination of ground loop or power line pickup is desire.


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> To be honest, the most important upgrade are the XO's, they will bring you a HUGE SQ improvement.
> Replacing caps for psu, changing the rectifiers, decoupling from polluted sub-power/signal, it all helps getting better SQ, but XO's are a MUST.
> 
> If i would have to explain in percentages in SQ increase from stock unit until now:
> ...




you sure you still have a Gustard there ? 
Thanks for the very useful mod-summary, but the only one that seems truly worthy (XOs) is too much for me. My soldering skills never went beyond DYI cables and the best "performance" was soldering some thin silver ones for a turntable. If you ever decide to sell your modded U12, send me a PM


----------



## motberg

> Originally Posted by *auvgeek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif


 

Hi,
  
Here is a link for the Tanly 
http://tw.taobao.com/item/40193288881.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a1z0k.7385961.1997985097.d4918997.gP8xeX&_u=81d7eit64f3
  
With the exception of the Tanly I have/had these DDC's - also the Wyred 4 Sound uLink and the Audio-GD DI-3. I was using various DAC's so cannot compare directly. 
  
One thing to consider is software compatibility, the XMOS chips work well with almost everything, there is much forum support and some options for drivers.
I was using the Gustard U12 AES output, that offered a very nice detailed and dynamic presentation, however it has been recently mentioned here that it could possibly could be bested by the MX-U8. For the money, I think the Gustard, as is, is a super bargain. I would consider to somehow clean up or cut the 5V as being discussed here. If you want something easy, then can cheaply add in the future 
http://www.ab-system.hk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=64  
(TeraDak U9VA Linear Low noise Power Supply) which also has a 5V USB style output and includes a nice little adapter cable to inject clean 5V at the end of your USB cable where it enters the DDC. This is a useful little low power box that can also be used to power a miniDSP unit for example. 
  
One thing I would consider also a plus for the U12 is the i2S output is HDMI format, which I understand is preferred (this was compared somewhat head-to-head vs. RJ45 Ethernet style in the Master 7 thread). So, when you go to upgrade your DAC, you would have that i2S HDMI input option, but would need to check pinout compatibility. One other trick that I found actually works is to use an attenuator in the SPDIF line.. so if you decide to go the coax route you may want to research that idea to add an attenuator.
  
That all said, I am a big fan of Audio-GD gear, I think you get a lot of value for the money.. but need watch freight cost (which is not an issue for me). The DI-V3 had a very nice organic sound, large sound stage, cohesive image, nicely balanced sound generally.. the DI-2014 should be even better due to the upgraded power supply.. but watch to make sure the chip and drivers are proven to work with your preferred software. One nice thing about the DI-V3/DI-2014 is there is an extra SPDIF COAX INPUT - so if you have some other CD player, etc. with SPDIF COAX output you can attach it and switch between that and the USB computer input. Also some upgrades are available, you can order an upgraded clock and HDMI i2S output format which I would consider worth the relatively small extra cost.
  
OK, I hope some new ideas there for you to consider... I think these are all good machines and with the recent activity you probably can find a mint condition used one and will have some budget remaining for a decent AES cable..


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> you sure you still have a Gustard there ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Prot,
  
 Yes, I still use my U12 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I can imagine it's too difficult to do for someone who's not used to solder VERY small things, when my first NDK's arrived I was shocked hahahaha
 2mm x 2,5mm looks on paper A LOT BIGGER than in reality hahahaha
  
 If I plan selling it I will PM you, but, no promises for now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## korn-fi

abartels said:


> To clarify:
> 
> You mean the USB isolator from TeraLink?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yep, I'm referring to is  ADuM4160, ADuM4160 just supports low and full speed data rate : 1.5Mbps and 12Mbps.   although I do not own an U12, I think U12 uses USB high speed.


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> Hi Prot,
> 
> Yes, I still use my U12 :wink_face:
> 
> ...




My cables were actually under 1mm diameter so in theory all should be ok dimensions-wise ... but soldering a cable is not same as soldering and especially de-soldering sensitive chips ... you are also adding small caps&co, that's already advanced EE for me. No hurry with the PM but I assume you'll move on to some other project at some point


----------



## pakultra

Update:
  
 I replaced U12's spdif transformer with DA101C (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/0/811-2661-ND) and the two 2200uf capacitors with Nichicon UHW1E222MHD6 2200uf 14 mOhm capacitors (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/0/493-6802-ND). Music has never sounded so fluid.
  
 So far I've done these mods to my U12:
  
 1) bypassed relay switch with *Neotech UPOCC 20​**AWG​**single core Mono Crystal* Copper Wire*;​*  
*2) grounded U12 from pin 1 of AES transformer to IEC with Neotech UPOCC single core​**Mono Crystal* Copper Wire;
  
 3) connected U12 +5 to USB socket Vcc pinout through a D4004 diode;
  
 4) replaced regular USB cable with a D+ and D- only cable, shielding connected to computer and disconnected from U12;
  
 5) replaced spdif transformer with DA101C;
  
 6) replaced 2200 capacitors with Nichicon UHW1E222MHD6;
  
 By the way, I figured out why my 820k pull up resistor didn't work as I expected initially. I overlooked that relay that was acting like a pull down resistor. That relay has a resistance of 65 ohm. It's resistance is so low that it's virtually pulling XMOS's Vcc sensor to ground! To make a high resistance pull up resistor work, that relay's 5+ pin has to be lifted, but desoldering that pin is going to be a lot of trouble...
  
 I am starting to love my U12 now. Still surprised how little mods can add up to so much difference.


----------



## prot

pakultra said:


> Update:
> 
> I replaced U12's spdif transformer with DA101C (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/0/811-2661-ND) and the two 2200uf capacitors with Nichicon UHW1E222MHD6 2200uf 14 mOhm
> capacitors (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/0/493-6802-ND). Music has never sounded so fluid.
> ...




I so wish I was able to do those kinds of mods .. and be able to figure out such things. 
Sounds like lots of fun and I'm totally jealous 
 Are you all EEs guys or just selftaught ? Maybe you can recommend a beginner's manual !?


----------



## pakultra

prot said:


> pakultra said:
> 
> 
> > Update:
> ...


 
  
 Lots of fun indeed
  
 I am self taught. Electronics has been my hobby since I was little. To me, modding is a great adventure to somewhere exciting, undiscovered, untried, or at least unknown by my own experience.
  
 I didn't plan to go this far with my U12. In the beginning I was just very unhappy about U12's mandatory requirements for usb power to start working. I would have simply returned my U12 hadn't I believed that it would be easy to make it work without usb power. But the modding turned out to be more complicated and challenging than I thought. One problem showed up after another. Couldn't help but keep trying until getting them sorted out one by one. I woke up last night, wondering why my pull up resistors didn't work. I went through U12's wiring in my mind and then, as if stricken by a flash of light, I saw what I overlooked. I went back to sleep, happy and fully satisfied now that I understood what happened. 
  
 Internet is great. I did quite some work researching datasheets, internet publications and etc. Forum members are of great help too. I hope more people will discover the fun of modding.
  
 U12 is fun as a DDC. It is double fun if you mod it and play with it like you'd do with a toy...


----------



## abartels

I'm self taught too, but have electronics background 30 years ago,,,,,
  
 Today my MX-U8 came in, including complete range of Elfidelity filters & Usb card.
  
  
 So, tonight will be fun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Will post first listening impressions MX-U8 in comparisson with my U12


----------



## mz2014

mz2014 said:


> Hi everyone.
> Which USB interface will be the best and how can I plug it to DAC board ( if it will work ? ).
> Thanks
> 
> ...


 
 Helloooo, can someone answer me, please


----------



## hgpsemaj

mz2014 said:


> Helloooo, can someone answer me, please


 
  
  
 Raise this query to those USB interface suppliers, they must have more compatibility information in hand than us.


----------



## prot

thanks abartels and pakultra, sounds like the selftaught way is as hard & long as I expected .. not really something I could pick up at my age and with very limited time ... maybe a hobby for my pension 
Still looking for a modding/electronics 101 manual ... maybe .. maybe ..


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> thanks @abartels and @pakultra, sounds like the selftaught way is as hard & long as I expected .. not really something I could pick up at my age and with very limited time ... maybe a hobby for my pension
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Just take your iron at hand and start de-soldering components from old unusefull equipment, this is a good learning curve.
 Then try to solder components on test-print or old pcb's. You will notice the oftener you solder the easier you get the job done.
  
 Buy an iron not above 35 Watts or so, clean the wires on the components before soldering them, and try to use ass less as possible flux (let it flow but not a big BLOB around the wires)


----------



## abartels

Today I received all my Elfidelity stuff (4x SATA filters, 2x Fan filters, 1x USB card and 2x PCI filters).
  
 And guess,,,,,,
  
 At the same time my MX-U8 arrived 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 I was at work and tested my MX-U8 and it worked, I let it play for about 5 hours (without DAC connected).
  
 When I came at home I immediately connected MX-U8 to my set but in JPlay6 I only could select WASAPI or ASIO.
 Since I prefer KernelStreaming (KS) is had to de-install the Chody drivers (version 2.23) and installed the Oppo 2.24 drivers.
 I didn't want to switch to 2.26 driver because of the sonic difference between 2.24 and 2.26 (2.26 suposedly sounds better)
  
 After installing and restarting AudioPC and ControlPC I got it working with JPlay6 in KS - UltraStream - Hibernate - 700Hz - 0.01s
  
  
 First listening impressions:
  
 Out of the box it sounds really good, but, as expected, not as good as my U12. It doesn't come close.
 My U12 is much more refined, more airy, more black, bigger - deeper - wider soundstage, at the low end my U12 is much tighter.
  
 And the biggest difference is listening fatigue (in comparrisson with my U12).
  
 I suppose when MX-U8 has passed it's burn-in time it will come closer to my U12, but, without modifying I suppose it will not be better than my U12,
 but, that's only a guess......
  
 We will have to wait till burn-in time has passed, next week I will report back!!
  
 After burn-in time the mods will start, be prepared


----------



## pakultra

@abartels.
  
 Congrats on your new toys


----------



## abartels

Hahaha thank you, I suppose I won't sleep a lot coming weekend hahahaha
  
 Cheers


----------



## hgpsemaj

Hello Abartels,
  
 A busy weekend seems inevitable.
  
  
  
 Cheers  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 hgpsemaj


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> Just take your iron at hand and start de-soldering components from old unusefull equipment, this is a good learning curve.
> Then try to solder components on test-print or old pcb's. You will notice the oftener you solder the easier you get the job done.
> 
> Buy an iron not above 35 Watts or so, clean the wires on the components before soldering them, and try to use ass less as possible flux (let it flow but not a big BLOB around the wires)
> ...




Soldering is not my biggest concern. Got some tools already and guess I can pick up some skills in a few weeks following your practice-on-scrap advice. 
But I'd like to know some EE/circuits theory so I'm able to figure out where to put another cap/diode/etc and how is that going to change things .. or figure out what's wrong in a circuit

Anyway, you are busy with the new toy and ppl are eagerly waiting more impressions...


----------



## Voltot

pakultra said:


> Update:
> 
> I replaced U12's spdif transformer with DA101C (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/0/811-2661-ND) and the two 2200uf capacitors with Nichicon UHW1E222MHD6 2200uf 14 mOhm capacitors (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/0/493-6802-ND). Music has never sounded so fluid.
> 
> ...


 
  
 4)  Disconnect shielding from pc too.


----------



## abartels

voltot said:


> 4)  Disconnect shielding from pc too.


 
  
 Disconnect Shielding ONLY at PC side, at least when shielding is connected to GROUND from IEC320, in that case your USB cable is still protected from unwanted EMI/RFI


----------



## abartels

Couldn't resist and put the Elfidelity filters including USB-card in my AudioPC. ControlPC still has no Elfidelity cards.
  
 Sounds FANTASTIC, but PROBLEM with USB-card. USB-card won't work with U12, even not with standard USB cable.
 Can connect keyboard and mouse to the card, they work. Very strange problem.
  
  
 MX-U8 is burnin-in, haven't test connection to USB-card with it. Will try later on.
  
  
  
 Filters are amazing


----------



## pakultra

abartels said:


> voltot said:
> 
> 
> > 4)  Disconnect shielding from pc too.
> ...


 

 Done. Shielding disconnected at PC. It's connected at U12.


----------



## rurika

Well, I just ordered jplay usb card and Tanly usb spdif (with mod hdmi pinout and clock input).

  
 This is the latest revision that I will get from Tanly.
  
 Might sale U12 and PPA usb card v1 soon.


----------



## SodaBoy

The Tanly is very nice, but the front USB is annoying. Anything new with the latest revision?


----------



## rurika

They change capacitor on the output stage.
  
 Before :


----------



## stuartmc

rurika said:


> They change capacitor on the output stage.
> 
> Before :



I have a Tanly on the way now. Since it was shipped on Monday of this week, I assume it has the most recent changes. Tam knew it was for review so I'm sure he sent his best.


----------



## hgpsemaj

Please note, the double USB Cable (i.e. Date/Power.) which shown on Post #1390 for RMB131.10 has NO shielding, thus it may not suitable for our purpose.


----------



## SodaBoy

Good stuff rurika. Hope you and stuartmc drop by with some impressions once the units have settled in. The Tanly unit seems to offer everything that the Hydra-Z does, but at a significantly lower price point.


----------



## ginetto61

>


 
  
 Hi !  i have *a question about the U12*
  
 I have noticed that if i isolate the usb input from the pc usb power lines it does not switch on
 IMHO this is a very big limit indeed. 
 The unit should be working also connected with a usb data only cable providing electrical isolation with the pc.
 However ....   is there any way to make it working with electrical connection to the pc and no usb power supply ?
 I do not know if my question is clear
 Thanks a lot,  gino


----------



## abartels

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !  i have *a question about the U12*
> 
> I have noticed that if i isolate the usb input from the pc usb power lines it does not switch on
> IMHO this is a very big limit indeed.
> ...


 
  
 Hi Gino, not to be picky, but please read the last pages, we worked hard to get it fixed, so please read postings.
  
 Cheers,
 Alex


----------



## abartels

abartels said:


> Couldn't resist and put the Elfidelity filters including USB-card in my AudioPC. ControlPC still has no Elfidelity cards.
> 
> Sounds FANTASTIC, but PROBLEM with USB-card. USB-card won't work with U12, even not with standard USB cable.
> Can connect keyboard and mouse to the card, they work. Very strange problem.
> ...


 
  
 Elfidelity AXF-100 Pro Usb card works now!
  
 Procedure:
  
 FIRST uninstall xmos drivers and RESTART your pc.
 Connect your U12 (or MX-U8 or other device) to the AXF-100 Pro and install xmos drivers.
  
 Restart pc, and you're done!!
  
 Restarts are VERY important, without it wont work.
  
 Cheers,
 Alex


----------



## Voltot

So we need Elfidelity AXF-100 or PPA or Sotm usb cards if our converter eats digital signal only (D+, D-)?


----------



## ginetto61

abartels said:


> Hi Gino, not to be picky, but please read the last pages, we worked hard to get it fixed, so please read postings.
> 
> Cheers,
> Alex


 
  
 Hi Alex i tried hard but it is too technical for me. I had to give up.
 My skills are very limited and i would never mess with the internal. 
 The fact that it does not provide electrical isolation is a huge drawback in my wiew ...
 this should be a basic design requirement for any usb to spdif interface.
 It is written everywhere how dirty is pc usb voltage.
*I will try just a usb noise filter. *That i can do also myself.  
 I have one i bought on ebay time ago.
 Thanks anyway,  gino


----------



## hgpsemaj

I believe not all our members could manipulate electronic workmanship. There are many alternatives which could overcome 5V/Ground drawback in our U12. Aqvox USB Low-Noise 5V Isolated Linear Power Supply is one of the tactics which may solve our U12 drawback. But the thing is, who would pay EUR98.00 for an adaptor and a piece of wire.
 So, I've the following proposal:
  
 RMB40.00 excluding postage,

  
  
 RMB248.00 Linear Power Supply 2 x 5V output.

  
  
 And later, you may add another US$59.95 for this 0.8uV ultra low noise regulator, also '3.3V/5V  1A' x 2

  
  
 Please comment.
  
  
 Regards,  
  
 hgpsemaj


----------



## ginetto61

hgpsemaj said:


> I believe not all our members could manipulate electronic workmanship. There are many alternatives which could overcome 5V/Ground drawback in our U12. Aqvox USB Low-Noise 5V Isolated Linear Power Supply is one of the tactics which may solve our U12 drawback. But the thing is, who would pay EUR98.00 for an adaptor and a piece of wire.
> So, I've the following proposal:
> RMB40.00 excluding postage,
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks for the suggestion.
 If it is the *Teradak U9 *i have already one. I should have said that. Sorry.
 By the way a really nice unit i can sincerely recommend to anyone. 
 My point was just a trivial comment.
 A well designed usb to spdif converter MUST have in its design requirements its own low noise power supply and provide electrical isolation from the pc
 These are basic requirements because everyone knows how dirty is usb voltage. 
 Another external usb power supply should be redundant.  I see now sadly that with the U12 is not the case.
 They have done a very competent unit ... why slip on this basic thing ... i do not understand really. 
 Personally i do not like toroidal in digital equipment, but that is just me. 
 So to end the ramblings i would like to avoid to use another usb power supply ...
 my rig looks more like a christmas tree than an audio system
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## pakultra

Findings on U12 cap values:
  
 I replaced my two 2200uf ultra-low impedance (14 mohm) Nichicon caps with two 5600uf ultra-low ESR panasonic FC caps for experiment. To my surprise, the breathtaking imaging is gone. Everything is a little laid back. To make sure I wasn't imagining differences, I put my 2200uf Nichicon back in, the imaging is back. It turns out that the original cap value of 2200uf is pretty optimal.
  
 Some people insist that audio sounds better with smaller caps so that the circuit is powered more of the time directly by transformer instead of by capacitors. That's the reason I didn't increase the cap value when I replaced them. My experiments with 5600uf caps confirmed this.


----------



## Walderstorn

This thread turned into an advanced/modders-only thread for the most of it jesus christ i cant understand nothing of what you guys are talking about lol, so i will just ask 2 little things:
  
 Does that weird usb cable with separate data - power work after all ? 
  
  
@abartels could u provide a proper picture of that cable that you put inside to make the noise go away or did u scrap that idea and just used the pci-e/usb card?


----------



## Jamiee

I personally use a JCAT USB card powered by the JCAT Battery PSU, - and a Light Harmonic Lightspeed (twin) USB cable.
 All together they are a potent low-noise combination.
  
 Not cheap, but well worth it!


----------



## pakultra

walderstorn said:


> This thread turned into an advanced/modders-only thread for the most of it jesus christ i cant understand nothing of what you guys are talking about lol, so i will just ask 2 little things:
> 
> Does that weird usb cable with separate data - power work after all ?
> 
> ...


 

 @Walderstorn,
  
 D+ and D- two wire data only connection is working now. No positive, no ground in usb wire, data wire shielding connected at U12 only and disconnected from PC.
  
 Here is how I did it:
  
  
 :
  

  
  
 Warning: *Do Not use regular usb cable after these mods*. You might damage your U12 or PC if you use regular four wire usb cables. *Absolutely no USB Positive connection at any time!*
  
 Regarding Step 3), please note that we hope Gustard will issue a firmware revision to disable XMOS's Vcc detection function. Once that is done, there will be no need for Step 3. Step 3 connects U12 + 5 with USB  Vcc, which is BAD and Dangerous! Take cautions here.
  
 No wiring on the upper side of the pcb:
  

  
 I replaced the spdif transformer and 2200 uf caps. There are no hookup wires on this side. U12 still look nice and clean.


----------



## Voltot

Thanks a lot. It's works. I am using Oyaide NEO d+ Class S usb cable with isolated ground, Vcc and shield by...insulating tape!  Big sound improvement, much cleaner.


----------



## Walderstorn

@pakultra thank you very much but turned out to be much more complex than i thought it would be, definitely not something im confortable trying. I guess my friend (the owner of the u12) is screwed and he's probably going to sell it, since he finds it (and so do i) awful that they could've ignored this issue when manufacturing, seems like a huge oversight and i dont think a firmware update will be able to fix it.


----------



## abartels

pakultra said:


> Findings on U12 cap values:
> 
> I replaced my two 2200uf ultra-low impedance (14 mohm) Nichicon caps with two 5600uf ultra-low ESR panasonic FC caps for experiment. To my surprise, the breathtaking imaging is gone. Everything is a little laid back. To make sure I wasn't imagining differences, I put my 2200uf Nichicon back in, the imaging is back. It turns out that the original cap value of 2200uf is pretty optimal.
> 
> Some people insist that audio sounds better with smaller caps so that the circuit is powered more of the time directly by transformer instead of by capacitors. That's the reason I didn't increase the cap value when I replaced them. My experiments with 5600uf caps confirmed this.


 
  
 Hi pakultra, the downside on modifying audio equipment is that you have to let the replaced components BURN-IN, so, put those Pana's back in and let it them burn-in for at least 100 hours!
 You will be surprised what they finally bring you!
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## abartels

walderstorn said:


> This thread turned into an advanced/modders-only thread for the most of it jesus christ i cant understand nothing of what you guys are talking about lol, so i will just ask 2 little things:
> 
> Does that weird usb cable with separate data - power work after all ?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Walderstorm,
  
 I didn't took a picture, it's just a simple wire extracted from a powercord, connected from grounpin at IEC320 connector to a negative feed at psu cap.
  
 And yes, I use it in my U12, then there's no need for complex galvanic ground isolation, just cut black wire and groundschiel in usb cable at pc side.
  
  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## abartels

pakultra said:


> @Walderstorn,
> 
> D+ and D- two wire data only connection is working now. No positive, no ground in usb wire, data wire shielding connected at U12 only and disconnected from PC.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice job pakultra, I didn't took time to measure all of the pins to find groundpin, AES transformer pin 1 is a good find, will remove wire on top and modify to this pin, look cleaner indeed.
  
 About relay bypassing, It's a nice find, but I'm not very fond of this mod because of accidental connecting standard usb cable will destroy U12 or usb-port from pc.
  
 I tried feeding relay with batterypower, there's no sq improvement in comparrison with feeding relay with usb power, at least, with my usb cable.
  
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## Walderstorn

Thanks Alex, i will try that with some wire from power cord and just cut off the black wire and the shielded (still have to see which was is this) and try to do it.


----------



## abartels

walderstorn said:


> Thanks Alex, i will try that with some wire from power cord and just cut off the black wire and the shielded (still have to see which was is this) and try to do it.


 
  
 Hi Walderstorm,
  
 Try to connect wire as pakultra did, AES transformer pin 1 to IEC320 ground as shown in picture pakultra posted, thats the easiest way to do.
  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## Walderstorn

What about the 2 other steps, not needed? one thing is the 1st step, seems very direct to the point but the  other i dont feel confortable to doing it, also because he said my friend could fry pc or the u12 if he by mistake used a normal usb cable.


----------



## pakultra

voltot said:


> Thanks a lot. It's works. I am using Oyaide NEO d+ Class S usb cable with isolated ground, Vcc and shield by...insulating tape!  Big sound improvement, much cleaner.@


 
@Voltot
  
 You are most welcome. Glad it worked for you too


----------



## ginetto61

Hi !  what about this USD isolator between the pc and the Gustard ? 
  
*http://www.ebay.com/itm/111648127278*
  

  
 I bought one to try out. 
 It has a power plug receptacle marked 6V-24V.  
 Any decent PS would be better than the dirty pc usb lines i guess. 
 What you think ?
 Thanks,  gino


----------



## pakultra

walderstorn said:


> @pakultra thank you very much but turned out to be much more complex than i thought it would be, definitely not something im confortable trying. I guess my friend (the owner of the u12) is screwed and he's probably going to sell it, since he finds it (and so do i) awful that they could've ignored this issue when manufacturing, seems like a huge oversight and i dont think a firmware update will be able to fix it.


 

@Walderstorn I understand how frustrated you and your friend feel about this design feature. I was, like you, also very unhappy and even a bit angry at it too. I was even about to return U12 the first day I received U12 when I found it refused to work with my usual data-only connection. But for me, it is probably more costly and troublesome to return it than to mod it.
  
 U12 is originally hardware AND firmware designed Not to work without USB vcc. It's particularly frustrating that other than this design feature, U12 is an excellent piece of device.
  
 I am 100% sure that a firmware revision can get rid of the need for step 3). Right now there a instruction in U12 firmware to tell XMOS to check for USB vcc and it tells XMOS to Not start working until Vcc is present. Once this specific Vcc checking instruction is removed in the firmware, XMOS will work regardless of whether Vcc is present. We have asked Gustard to update firmware and Gustard is happy to assist. But their main designer is busy these days, so it can be a few more days before we can hear back from them.
  
*@all fellow forum members, do not mod U12 if you don't know the consequences of what you do. You are fully responsible for your own modding. If anything goes wrong, Do not blame me or others for sharing what we've found.* *Thank you.*


----------



## pakultra

abartels said:


> pakultra said:
> 
> 
> > Findings on U12 cap values:
> ...


 
 @Alex thank you for your advice. I will put bigger values back in and let them burn in. I was aware of this burn-in effect but I was just too impatient to wait for a whole week before U12 could sound good again. The effect of replacing original caps with 2200uf Nichicon 14 mohm was instant and immediate. Without a single minute of burn-in, I heard breathtaking imaging. I was expecting the same level of performance from the Pana's... I will order some 4700 uf Nichicon 11 mohm to see if there is a difference between the Nichicon and Pana's.
  
 Cheers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 pakultra


----------



## pakultra

abartels said:


> pakultra said:
> 
> 
> > @Walderstorn,
> ...


 
  
 Step 2) alone is not dangerous. Regular usb cable will not do any damage at this point. You can still hear relay clicking on with usb power connected and off when disconnected. 
  
 But Step 2) is pointless without going further for Step 3), which is dangerous.
  
 But *we can do a Step 4) to make U12 totally safe with regular USB cables again*. I didn't mention Step 4) because so far all steps can be easily reversed and I can return U12 to its original factory condition simply by removing the three connections in steps 1- 3. Step 4 will be a little beyond the point of return.
  
 This is what we need to do for *Step 4): remove USB socket Vcc connection to the PCB*.
  
 It can be achieved by simply pulling out the USB positive leg in the socket or by cutting the USB Vcc pinout before it connects to pcb. We will need a hot air rework station or Chipquik pack for desoldering the USB socket so that we can cut the Vcc and negative pinout before we put the socket back in. I don't have a hot air station or a Chipquik pack so I can't do it now.
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 pakultra


----------



## Walderstorn

Thanks m8. it doesnt pay off to return it right now, so we'll wait and hope for a firmware upgrade.


----------



## korn-fi

pakultra said:


> Step 2) alone is not dangerous. Regular usb cable will not do any damage at this point. You can still hear relay clicking on with usb power connected and off when disconnected.
> 
> But Step 2) is pointless without going further for Step 3), which is dangerous.
> 
> ...


 
 I wanna ask  a question :why should do the step 1 ?


----------



## b0bb

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !  what about this USD isolator between the pc and the Gustard ?
> 
> *http://www.ebay.com/itm/111648127278*
> 
> ...


 
 From the Ebay description : "This module is designed based on ADUM4160, a *Full/Low speed* 5kV USB isolator."
  
 This is USB marketing speak for the low speed stuff so it will not work with 480Mbps USB2.0, if this isolator is used the interface is limited to USB1.1 which limits the audio to a max sample rate of 96kHz.


----------



## b0bb

pakultra said:


> @Alex thank you for your advice. I will put bigger values back in and let them burn in. I was aware of this burn-in effect but I was just too impatient to wait for a whole week before U12 could sound good again. The effect of replacing original caps with 2200uf Nichicon 14 mohm was instant and immediate. Without a single minute of burn-in, I heard breathtaking imaging. I was expecting the same level of performance from the Pana's... I will order some 4700 uf Nichicon 11 mohm to see if there is a difference between the Nichicon and Pana's.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ...


 

 The Panasonic FCs are an old design and quite laid back. They were quite popular in taming the sound of the delta-sigma DACs in CD Players 10-15 years ago.
  
 The present day equivalent to the low impedance Nichicons are the Panasonic FMs. The Panasonic FRs are even lower impedance. They are the equivalents of the Nichicon HE and HW respectively.
  
 Agree with abartels, on digital stuff, new caps in my mods take 24-48 hours of continuous operation to settle down.


----------



## ginetto61

b0bb said:


> From the Ebay description : "This module is designed based on ADUM4160, a *Full/Low speed* 5kV USB isolator."
> This is USB marketing speak for the low speed stuff so it will not work with 480Mbps USB2.0, if this isolator is used the interface is limited to USB1.1 which limits the audio to a max sample rate of 96kHz.


 
  
 HI thanks a lot for the very helpful advice.
 I have to say that 95% of my music collection is on cds ... so it could be still useful for me despite of this important limitation
 In the meantime i took out a usb power supply i have at hand, the *Teradak U9*, and indeed i hear a better sound. 
 The sound of instruments stands out more from the background with the Teradak in. I will leave it. 
 So it seems that the noise from my pc affects the performance of the Gustard.
 I agree with who say that a very good interface should provide also isolation from the pc power lines. 
 Unfortunately i do not have the skills to perform the mods proposed here.
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## MINORISUKE

*U12 & MX-U8 on the same PC?*
  
 Has anybody here tried to install both U12 and MX-U8 on a single PC?
 Both should work with the same XMOS driver theoretically.


----------



## pakultra

b0bb said:


> pakultra said:
> 
> 
> > @Alex thank you for your advice. I will put bigger values back in and let them burn in. I was aware of this burn-in effect but I was just too impatient to wait for a whole week before U12 could sound good again. The effect of replacing original caps with 2200uf Nichicon 14 mohm was instant and immediate. Without a single minute of burn-in, I heard breathtaking imaging. I was expecting the same level of performance from the Pana's... I will order some 4700 uf Nichicon 11 mohm to see if there is a difference between the Nichicon and Pana's.
> ...


 
  
@b0bb Thanks. That cleared things up. My 2200 uf caps are Nichicon HW. I will order more Nichicon HW to try.


----------



## ginetto61

Hi   *can  anyone recommend a effective mains filter to be used with the Gustard ?*
  
 I see no mains RF filter in the U12 and that toroidal is an open door for any high Hz noise coming from the mains.
  

  
 However ... this below is *one of the best usb to spdif converter around *...
 look at its power supply ... it has both a filter and a EI transformer.
  
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8343/alphausb1.jpg
  
  

  

  
 Very very simple and nevertheless, i guess, extremely effective.
 And this is one of the very beast converter around.  A reference for all.
 I have an opinion.
 I see people adding uF ... this is good of course.
 But this does nothing about the high Hz noise in the mains ... nothing.
 And this noise, from what i have learned, is extremely negative for digital devices ... extremely.
 A very good filtering of this high freq noise coming from the mains is mandatory for good performance.
 This is a simple but very effective solution.
 bye,  gino


----------



## abartels

b0bb said:


> pakultra said:
> 
> 
> > @Alex thank you for your advice. I will put bigger values back in and let them burn in. I was aware of this burn-in effect but I was just too impatient to wait for a whole week before U12 could sound good again. The effect of replacing original caps with 2200uf Nichicon 14 mohm was instant and immediate. Without a single minute of burn-in, I heard breathtaking imaging. I was expecting the same level of performance from the Pana's... I will order some 4700 uf Nichicon 11 mohm to see if there is a difference between the Nichicon and Pana's.
> ...


 
  
@b0bb Thanks. That cleared things up. My 2200 uf caps are Nichicon HW. I will order more Nichicon HW to try.
  
  
  
 I will try those Nichicon HW's too, thanks for pointing me in the right direction!
  
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## ginetto61

Hi i have a question.
 USB isolation issue aside, would it be beneficial to provide a low noise power supply to this unit with an external high quality linear power supply ?
 Taking out the internal transformer and leave only low ESR high uF inside ?
 This is an example ...

  
 I have the feeling that _*the power supply quality is impacting a lot the performance of this very nice unit.*_
 I have seen this done with batteries but i see this a little too extreme.
 I have instead a very good lab supply at hand that can serve me well.
 What do you think ? is an external power supply a silly idea ?
  
 in general to put a transformer in a very small box with all the sensitive circuits very close ... i am perplexed ...
 just look at computers  and what kind of mess they are noise wise ...
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

I'm way out of my comfort zone here so some help is appreciated. I'm trying to decide whether or not the ifi iUSB can actually help me or not when used with the NAD M51. It sounds like it, and most usb power conditioners are really only needed if the DAC uses the power from the computer to run the USB chip. If that is correct, and the M51 uses it's own internal PS then one would expect it to be cleaner than the walwart that the ifi uses. Is this a fair assumption, or am I missing things? Cheers. By the way, this question is open to suggestions so if you know of a usb power conditioner you feel would benefit the M51 by all means I'm open to suggestions.


----------



## hgpsemaj

Please note, MX-U8 is available on DIY kits,
  
  http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.20141002.6.pr9K3Q&scm=1007.10009.6098.i43201730381&id=45265176118&pvid=216f8303-4d78-4d17-a481-fe3c3a4e5407


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> I'm way out of my comfort zone here so some help is appreciated. I'm trying to decide whether or not the ifi iUSB can actually help me or not when used with the NAD M51.
> It sounds like it, and most usb power conditioners are really only needed if the DAC uses the power from the computer to run the USB chip.
> If that is correct, and the M51 uses it's own internal PS then one would expect it to be cleaner than the walwart that the ifi uses. Is this a fair assumption, or am I missing things?
> Cheers. By the way, this question is open to suggestions so if you know of a usb power conditioner you feel would benefit the M51 by all means I'm open to suggestions.


 
  
 Hi ! you should understand if your dac usb is electrically isolated from the pc
 I am not an expert  you could open  a cheap usb cable and cut shield, read an black wires and leave connected only the data wires (i.e. white and green).
  
  

  
 If the M51 works fine it means that is electrically isolate from the computer.
 If it is not personally i would definitely *try a usb power supply.*
  
 A *Teradak U9 *is a cheap but good entry level example.
  
 Another option I have read great things about from a man i respect highly is this unit here ... very very good.
*http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/schiit_wyrd-580x326.png*
 I am thinking seriously to buy one.
  
 But also *the unit from iFi* is very good indeed
  
 Next step would be to try *a very good usb to AES/EBU interface*.  I read the advice of the extremely talented designer of Berkeley Audio
 recommending this type of balanced digital connection over spdif, very commonly used in pro units less in audiophile units.
 But i see that your very nice M51 has it. So i would be very tempted to use it.
 I do not have recommendation for this ... still looking for also myself.
 Actually i have .. what is considered the very best in the world ... the Berkeley Audio unit ...
 problem is the price ... i think 2000 USD ... two times the value of all my system ...
 Let's say that i am looking for the " the Berkeley for the chep guy " ...
 I have two dacs using this connection ... actually 3:  Apogee Rosetta 200, Apogee MiniDac and Benchmark dac1.
 The Gustard U12, with some different design solution could be the answer.
 Just to say it does not provide electrical isolation 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... a must widely agreed on. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 This did not prevent me to buy both the older U10 and then the newer U12  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Good luck !
 gino


----------



## pakultra

sonic defender said:


> I'm way out of my comfort zone here so some help is appreciated. I'm trying to decide whether or not the ifi iUSB can actually help me or not when used with the NAD M51. It sounds like it, and most usb power conditioners are really only needed if the DAC uses the power from the computer to run the USB chip. If that is correct, and the M51 uses it's own internal PS then one would expect it to be cleaner than the walwart that the ifi uses. Is this a fair assumption, or am I missing things? Cheers. By the way, this question is open to suggestions so if you know of a usb power conditioner you feel would benefit the M51 by all means I'm open to suggestions.


 
 @ sonic defender, I'd suggest that you tape your USB positive pin to cut USB Vcc supply, if your M51 works flawlessly after the USB power is disconnected, you won't benefit from any usb power conditioner, because your M51 is isolated from it; If your computer stops seeing M51, then a good usb power will help you. My NAD D 1050 doesn't need any usb power connection. Your M51 will most probably won't need it either.


----------



## Sonic Defender

Thanks Gino and pakultra, I have e-mailed NAD support so hopefully they reply soon. I suspect I would benefit more from the U12. I'll post once NAD confirms what we all suspect. On that front, does anybody have a link for a decent AES cable I could get with the U12? Cheers.


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> Thanks Gino and pakultra, *I have e-mailed NAD support *so hopefully they reply soon. I suspect I would benefit more from the U12. I'll post once NAD confirms what we all suspect.
> On that front, does anybody have a link for a decent AES cable I could get with the U12? Cheers.


 
 Hi that is the right thing to do in any case,  It is a very good unit from what i have read.
 I have also read here somewhere that another unit from Nad (i think their digital amp) has indeed an isolated usb input.
 So i assume that also the M51 that is a TOTL unit has this kind of feature.
  
 However, regarding *the U12 i think that also that unit should be used with a usb power supply.  The usb input is not isolated sadly.*
 This is a flaw in its design already discussed here in the thread.
 I tried both ways, with the Teradak usb power supply and without it,  and i prefer the sound with the usb power supply in place.
 I like the idea to compare the difference in sound to arts.
 With a so so system you get a painting.
 With a good system you get a bas-relief.
 With an exceptional system you get a sculpture !
*For me it is all about virtual soundstage. About the ability of a system to give back a huge soundstage with everything in place.*
 You get a recording where the soundstage has been captured particularly well.
 Then you play it on the system and listen ... if you start to "see" also the performers you have an exceptional system.
  
 Also a RF filter on the mains power input of the U12 would have been nice.
 I see many top dacs with a mains filter.  To get some ideas peeping inside the best in class units can teach a lot indeed.
 The digital part is tricky, but the power supply less.
 The actual best in class of usb to spdif converters in the world is the Berkeley Audio converter.  A wonderful unit.
 It is said to transform even the poorest pc in an exceptional digital source.
 I believe this completely.
  
 Regarding the AES cable i use a Sommercable Binary that is cheap and i think good.
 But i think that *any cable from known pro brands could work fine like Mogami, Gotham, Canare, Belden, etc.*
 You can look on ebay for some products.
 Good luck !
 gino


----------



## genclaymore

sonic defender said:


> Thanks Gino and pakultra, I have e-mailed NAD support so hopefully they reply soon. I suspect I would benefit more from the U12. I'll post once NAD confirms what we all suspect. On that front, does anybody have a link for a decent AES cable I could get with the U12? Cheers.


 

 Monoprice sells some and they do ship outside the usa.


----------



## abartels

Hi guys,
  
 Just a short follow-up on SQ stock MX-U8 in comparisson with modded U12:
  
 Until now U12 still holds first place, no listening fatigue, more black around voices, instruments and all sorts of sounds,
 in comparisson MX-U8 sounds more up-front, not the deep soundstage I'm used too with U12.
  
 Just 2 days to go to be sure!
  
  
 First "inbetween" conclusion:
  
 Stock MX-U8 sounds a lot better than stock U12.
  
  
  
 We will see if U12 still can hold first place if MX-U8 is modded the same way I did with U12.
  
  
 To be continued,,,,,,


----------



## Jamiee

What driver is everyone using with their MX-U8?
  
 I've been trying to make it work with the Oppo v2.24 driver unsuccessfully for an hour or so now.
 Modified the VID & PID values at which point the drivers successfully install - However device manager shows an error for the U8
 "This device cannot start. (Code 10)
 Indicates two revision levels are incompatible"
  
 Same driver works perfectly fine with my Stello U3 and the Gustard U12 (after being modded).


----------



## winxp

jamiee said:


> What driver is everyone using with their MX-U8?
> 
> I've been trying to make it work with the Oppo v2.24 driver unsuccessfully for an hour or so now.
> Modified the VID & PID values at which point the drivers successfully install - However device manager shows an error for the U8
> ...


 

 My MX-U8 works with Oppo V2.24 successfully.
  
 In order to install Oppo xmos driver, you should do an "advanced boot"​.
  
 Try the following steps:
 (Note. If you use AudiophileOptimizer, you should do a full reset start before driver install.
             Type “st -r” in the command prompt and press Enter.)
  
 1. Run ==> "shutdown /r /o"
  
 2. Choose an option==> Select "Troubleshoot"
  
 3. Advanced options==> Select "startup Settings"
  
 4. Startup Settings==> Select "7) Disable driver signature enforcement"
  
 5. Install Oppo xmos driver with MX-U8 connected.
  
 Good luck.


----------



## Jamiee

Thanks winxp,
 I had already tried with driver signature turned off, so that doesn't seem to be the problem.
  
 Interestingly enough I was able to install the WaveIO v2.23 driver with the MX-U8 without issue after modding it with the proper device ID's
 Worth noting that I have the latest revision of the MX-U8 (one with the gold footers).  It just arrived this morning.
  
 OS = Win 8.1 w/ JPlay.


----------



## stuartmc

Just a heads up gang. The Tanly Audio USB-DDC has landed. It's undergoing serious burn in for 48 hours and then the real fun and comparisons will begin. 

I had to open her up right off and switch from 220v to 110v per Tam's instructions. Build quality looks superb and she fired up without a hitch. I can already tell this will be a real contender - stone cold out of the box it sounds very promising.


----------



## ginetto61

abartels said:


> Hi guys,
> Just a short follow-up on SQ stock MX-U8 ...
> Stock MX-U8 sounds a lot better than stock U12.
> We will see if U12 still can hold first place if MX-U8 is modded the same way I did with U12.
> ...


 
 Hi !  thanks a lot !
 Bought one now ...
  
 just to add that i was not completely satisfied with the stock U12.
 I found it better anyway using a usb power supply that isolates it from the pc and provide cleaner power
 So i think that some of the pc noise can "contaminate" the unit through the usb port
 A very tawdry design flaw indeed ... with just a little more care that unit could be much much better
 with almost no cost added .. just a connection on the pcb should work
 (but i am not a designer so i would not dare to mess with the internals)
  
*A usb to spdif converter that does not provide usb isolation is deficient by design*
  
 i have first* a technical question about the MX-U8*
*Do you know if the usb input is isolated from the pc power ?*
 Anyway as i said at the beginning i bought one because i understand that even stock is better.
  
 I have come to the conclusion that the usb to spdif conversion can make or break the sound indeed.
*With a good converter just any decent pc and dac can give nice sounds indeed.*
 I will read your reports with the greatest interest.
 Thanks a lot and keep us posted on your findings
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## Jamiee

My experience with the MX-U8 so far is that it does NOT require 5V USB power to operate.
  
 I confirmed this using my Light Harmonic "Lightspeed" USB cable (separate data and power leads) by disconnecting the power lead from the PC's USB port (Actually a JCAT USB card fed by JCAT Battery PSU).  The MX-U8 continued to run without problem.


----------



## ginetto61

jamiee said:


> My experience with the MX-U8 so far is that* it does NOT require 5V USB power to operate*.
> 
> I confirmed this using my Light Harmonic "Lightspeed" USB cable (separate data and power leads) by disconnecting the power lead from the PC's USB port (Actually a JCAT USB card fed by JCAT Battery PSU).  The MX-U8 continued to run without problem.


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot indeed.
  
*This "feature" is an extremely good news and tells me that the unit has been designed very well indeed*
*The evil is in the details (that only details sometimes are not)*
  
 This is for me the very 1st requirement for a usb to spdif interface, isolation from the pc power.
 The 1st thing i learned is how dirty is the power inside the pc.  So isolation is fundamental.
 I could have done this also with a pci to toslink card ... maybe.
 I am sincerely crossing my fingers on this ... it could be a decisive upgrade of my system this very nice unit.
 I have carried out some tests and the usb to spdif converter can make a huge difference in sound really.
 The U12 with a usb power supply is good.  I did not allow it to break in properly.
 Maybe is much better than what i used to think.
 But seriously i am excited and i am waiting to receive the MX-U8.
 It could solve all my issues with the sound from the PC
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## pakultra

Update on U12 USB power isolation mod:
  
 I just did these to get my U12 completely and safely isolated from usb power:
  
 1) Desoldered USB B socket and flush cut its Vcc and ground pins, covered them with insulation tape and then re-soldered it . This makes sure that U12 is safe to work with regular USB cable too;
  
 2) Removed relay to cut off the 80 mA dc current running through U12's board to minimize power pollution as well as to save 0.5 watt power consumption per hour;
  
 3) Replaced my diode with a 470k pullup resistor to further reduce XMOS's vcc input current consumption. A 820k resistor didn't work. Based on this I estimate that Vcc pin is consuming about 2 uA now. I am still waiting for a firmware update to make this pullup resistor redundant and to cut that 2uA consumption to 0 uA.
  
 After these mods, the last bit of fatigue from my system is Gone! I didn't know that even 80 mA dc current running through the board can make the system less quite.


----------



## Sonic Defender

If I want to get an MX-U8, is there a ready made USB cable that will connect it to my laptop that only does data, not power? It sounds like there would be an advantage to not passing the power signal into the converter. Thanks for any suggestions.


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *pakultra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Update on U12 USB power isolation mod:
> I just did these to get my U12 completely and safely isolated from usb power:
> 1) Desoldered USB B socket and flush cut its Vcc and ground pins, covered them with insulation tape and then re-soldered it . This makes sure that U12 is safe to work with regular USB cable too.


 
  
 Hi and sorry but in this way it will not work.  I used the cable in the pic below that disconnects the usb power lines from the pc and the U12 did not switch on. It did not wake up let's say.   
 To make the unit work i had to connect this special cable to the usb power supply also shown in the picture in the background . It is a Teradak U9.
  

  


> 2) Removed relay to cut off the 80 mA dc current running through U12's board to minimize power pollution as well as to save 0.5 watt power consumption per hour;


 
 After the removal i have to make some jumpers ? some connection or the unit is working without problem without the relay ?
 Moreover i have noticed that many high end digital units with toroidal transformer have a mains filter before the toroid like this Bricasti M1.
  

  
 Could this filter be beneficial also with the Gustard ?
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

Wouldn't the MX-U8 simply ignore the power from the computer USB anyway meaning I can just continue using my current cheap USB cable with the U8? I'm not a believer in cables for the most part so using a super cheap printer USB cable has always worked for me.


----------



## pakultra

ginetto61 said:


> > Originally Posted by *pakultra* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> > Update on U12 USB power isolation mod:
> > I just did these to get my U12 completely and safely isolated from usb power:
> > 1) Desoldered USB B socket and flush cut its Vcc and ground pins, covered them with insulation tape and then re-soldered it . This makes sure that U12 is safe to work with regular USB cable too.
> ...


 
  
@Gino Sorry I didn't write it clearly. My update was based on what I already did in post #1480 on page 99. In post #1480, I wrote about Steps 1, 2 and 3 to mod U12. This update can be regarded as steps 4, 5 and 6.
  
 A main's filter is always good. But there is no room to add one inside U12. 
  
  
 Cheers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 pakultra


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## Gino

Please use proper forum nickname when addressing people with @. I get email prompts that aren't meant for me. Thanks.


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## pakultra

gino said:


> Please use proper forum nickname when addressing people with @. I get email prompts that aren't meant for me. Thanks.


 
 Sorry, my mistake...


----------



## ginetto61

pakultra said:


> @Gino Sorry I didn't write it clearly. My update was based on what I already did in post #1480 on page 99. In post #1480, I wrote about Steps 1, 2 and 3 to mod U12. This update can be regarded as steps 4, 5 and 6.
> A main's filter is always good. But there is no room to add one inside U12.
> 
> Cheers
> ...


 
  
 Hi Pakultra !  thanks a lot for the very kind and valuable reply
 People in Gustard should hire you as a consultant/beta tester.  
 Many basically really good project/design like the U12 could be even better with just some more attention to details (that sometimes impact functionality and performance)
 I think that one of the basic requirements for a usb to spdif converter is that it should provide isolation from the pc power.
 Lately someone told me about also noise in the data lines .. but this is less detrimental (i hope).
 Anyway *i would love to modify my unit but i am worried to damage it.* I am still undecided.  
 You did a really great job and the outcome shows. 
 You are right about the lack of space inside. This is unfortunate.
 I like to peep inside units and i see two things in the best digital units, in some of them at least.

transformer with separate primary and secondary (i.e. not toroidals)
rf mains filter at the input
  
 just to show this is the type of transformer that i would like to see in a digital unit, with primary and secondary windings separated
  

  
 I don'y know why it is labelled " Signal transformer" ... this is a mains transformer
 However this kind of transformers  usually provides a very good filtering effect on HF noise coming from the mains. 
 The toroidals tend to let everything pass through .... this HF/RF noise has very bad effects with digital.  
 Much less with analog and there toroidals are just fine. 
 The quality of power supply is fundamental. 
 At the point that i would try even batteries with this units that generate the clock (even if to be perfectly honest the Apogee Big Ben, a very good clock generator,
 has a high quality SMPS 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... so maybe i am overestimating things)
 So if instead a toroidal is used i see often, but not always, a RF filter before it. 
 This below is a dac from Weiss ... another great brand indeed. 
 You can spot a mains filter on the upper right corner ..
  

  
 Thanks a lot again.  Kind regards,  gino


----------



## pakultra

ginetto61 said:


> pakultra said:
> 
> 
> > @Gino Sorry I didn't write it clearly. My update was based on what I already did in post #1480 on page 99. In post #1480, I wrote about Steps 1, 2 and 3 to mod U12. This update can be regarded as steps 4, 5 and 6.
> ...


 
@ginetto61 You are most welcome
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I fully agree with you on the transformer choice and the need of a filter for better power supply. However, the separate winding transformers have more leakage and they need to be placed further away from sensitive circuits, in the case of U12, that means they have to be put outside the U12 case. I already have a Blue Circle Audio mains filter, so once my U12 is isolated from PC, it is very quite and non-fatiguing.
  
 Unfortunately, modding is always a little risky. The other day when I was trying to remove the relay, the board became so hot that the bypass ceramic capacitor right beside the relay dropped off to my desk! This surprised me. Luckily, the relay did come off almost at the same time, so I still considered it a success. That specific capacitor was useless anyhow since I bypassed the relay. Still, I carefully picked it up and soldered it back just to make the board look as original as possible. lol 
  
 If you ever decide to mod your board, I'd be glad to help as much as I can.
  
 I already have a 0.8uv power supply kit at hand. This kit has a good Murata hybrid mains filter that rejects both common and differential noises. I am expecting my R-core transformer to arrive anytime now. Once I get it, I will build an external power supply for my U12, with separate 5+ and 3.3+ outputs. 
  
 Cheers
  
 pakultra


----------



## ginetto61

pakultra said:


> @ginetto61 You are most welcome
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot again. You are right. The unit that have that kind of transformer are usually full size and the trans itself is placed far away from the circuits.   The EMI emission is stronger than with toroids.
 Actually the space in the U12 is very limited and toroids are the best choice ...​


> I already have a Blue Circle Audio mains filter, so once my U12 is isolated from PC, it is very quite and non-fatiguing.


 
  
 i think that this is more than enough indeed.  Great brand Blue Circle Audio ... not so famous in EU but i read a lot about their products and their beautiful sound. 
 Which specific model do you have ?  i am thinking about this option.  Or at least a in line filter for the converter, assuming that the dac being pro is already better isolated, 
  


> Unfortunately, modding is always a little risky. The other day when I was trying to remove the relay, the board became so hot that the bypass ceramic capacitor right beside the relay dropped off to my desk! This surprised me. Luckily, the relay did come off almost at the same time, so I still considered it a success. That specific capacitor was useless anyhow since I bypassed the relay. Still, I carefully picked it up and soldered it back just to make the board look as original as possible. lol
> If you ever decide to mod your board, I'd be glad to help as much as I can.
> I already have a 0.8uv power supply kit at hand. This kit has a good Murata hybrid mains filter that rejects both common and differential noises. I am expecting my R-core transformer to arrive anytime now.
> Once I get it, I will build an external power supply for my U12, with separate 5+ and 3.3+ outputs.
> ...


 
  
 thanks a lot again for your kind offer.  But it is a little too far from me.  I have to learn some basic first.
 Anyway _*my late discover of the Teradak U9 usb power supply has given me confidence to get a decent sound. *_
 Now it is still a little harsh but more musical.  Also the components are still quite new. 
 For the future i would like to take out the U12 internals and put them in a bigger box maybe with a different transformer 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (sorry it is an obsession now) and with your mods on the usb port.
 I really do not know why they did not think to this.  For instance i have a Cambridge Audio Dacmagic and it works also with a data only usb cable
 So this means to me that the usb input is isolated. I found it quite ok but a little flat.  I read that a better transformer could be beneficial.
 Thanks a lot again.  
 Regards,  gino


----------



## pakultra

I am using *The PLC FX-**2  *(six outlet model) from Blue Circle Audio:
  




  
 http://www.bluecircle.com/page151.html
  
 Not fancy but very functional.
  
 Cheers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 pakultra


----------



## Sonic Defender

@pakultra, how expensive was the FX-2? I live about two hours away from where they make the Blue Circle gear, but they are slow to return calls! Thanks brother.


----------



## pakultra

sonic defender said:


> @pakultra, how expensive was the FX-2? I live about two hours away from where they make the Blue Circle gear, but they are slow to return calls! Thanks brother.


 
@Sonic Defender I bought it from here: http://entracteaudio.com/Thingee.php It's currently priced at CAD355. I bought it two years ago. I forgot how much I paid for it, but it could have been a little cheaper than this. The seller is a distributor of Blue Circle Audio. It's a one-man operation. The owner is named Geroge. He is a nice guy. He offered a few days return and a one-year upgrade policy. I called him and got a little discount off the official price and then I just drove to his house and picked it up. 
  
 Cheers
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 pakultra


----------



## Sonic Defender

pakultra said:


> @Sonic Defender I bought it from here: http://entracteaudio.com/Thingee.php It's currently priced at CAD355. I bought it two years ago. I forgot how much I paid for it, but it could have been a little cheaper than this. The seller is a distributor of Blue Circle Audio. It's a one-man operation. The owner is named Geroge. He is a nice guy. He offered a few days return and a one-year upgrade policy. I called him and got a little discount off the official price and then I just drove to his house and picked it up.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks, I was on the phone with Toby from Blue Circle for almost an hour today. Really nice man, fascinating stories. I'm holding off as even they are careful not to say that utility power noise causes any audible issues. They are comfortable saying that utility power is "dirty" but they are clear that they will not equate that with audible issues.
  
 Anyway I purchased an MX-U8 just now but I need advice or a link for a basic AES cable to use with it and my M51. I hate sounding ignorant, but up until recently I never bothered looking into this so I need to ask if all AES cables are the same? Are there different configurations that would not work with the U8 and my DAC? There is a company in Quebec, pro studio equipment called Studio Ecomik http://economik.com/ where it appears that there are several AES cables available. Hard to believe I'm this freakin ignorant, but it is what it is so any input is welcome. Thanks.


----------



## Jamiee

sonic defender said:


> Thanks, I was on the phone with Toby from Blue Circle for almost an hour today. Really nice man, fascinating stories. I'm holding off as even they are careful not to say that utility power noise causes any audible issues. They are comfortable saying that utility power is "dirty" but they are clear that they will not equate that with audible issues.
> 
> Anyway I purchased an MX-U8 just now but I need advice or a link for a basic AES cable to use with it and my M51. I hate sounding ignorant, but up until recently I never bothered looking into this so I need to ask if all AES cables are the same? Are there different configurations that would not work with the U8 and my DAC? There is a company in Quebec, pro studio equipment called Studio Ecomik http://economik.com/ where it appears that there are several AES cables available. Hard to believe I'm this freakin ignorant, but it is what it is so any input is welcome. Thanks.


 
  
 Any AES cable should work fine and at the very least will get you listening to some music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Of course like most things, I generally find that you get what you pay for in an AES cable. 
  
  
  
 Anyway, I just finished lightly modding my MX-U8 with some Stillpoints ERS and replaced the stock fuse with a Furutech part.
 - Straight off that bat you wouldn't think it was the same unit - it sounds quite a bit different compared to the stock MX-U8.
  
 The stock U8 is surprisingly forward in it's presentation (voices leap out at you). My April Music DP1 Dac already has a slightly forward midrange presentation, and in no way does the MX-U8 try to hide it!
  
 After the mod, the sound stage is noticeably less forward (less aggressive) if not a bit sweeter and more relaxed sounding.  It definitely sounds more transparent.
  
 Of course, the fuse is new and needs to burn in, and the MX-U8 itself is fairly new and needs more hours on it as well before I'll get the full scope of what the U8 is all about.


----------



## Sonic Defender

Thanks Jamie, I think I'll just go with a basic Digiflex cable for now, they seem to be well made and have a good reputation. I just wasn't sure if there were any particular configurations of the AES cable that should be considered. I guess not which makes things easier.


----------



## ginetto61

pakultra said:


> I am using *The PLC FX-**2  *(six outlet model) from Blue Circle Audio:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Pakultra ! good morning
  
 Thanks a lot indeed for the valuable information
 Your experience confirms me that a filter is indeed beneficial.  And i think especially with digital equipment that i read are extremely sensitive to RFI in particular.
 As you also say also EMI are quite bad but a solution could be a EI transformer place in a Faraday cage (let's say shielded).
 I love EI transformers.  I made some little experiment for a PS for a DIY line preamp.
 This preamp (the Nelson Pass project "Bride of Zen") has the characteristic of let much of the noise from the PS through down to the power amp (design with a low PSRR).
 So i tried both a toroidal and a EI.  I had very bad electrical plant at home.
 Every time i switched on the lights in the room with the toroidal i was getting a very loud pop in the speakers
 Replacing the toroidal with the EI the pop was almost not existent ... just a little click.
 An my feeling is that analog circuits are much much more tolerant than digital ones, that are very very sensitive.
 This is the Schiit Bifrost dac, and excellent sounding unit.   Let's just say that i like its PS immensely more.  They really know what they are doing in Schiit. Exceptional brand.
 Sorry i cannot upload the picture now. This is the link.
  
http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/imagecache_thumbnail_product_gallery_large/bifrost_06.jpg
  
 Peeping inside the very best units around a lot of hints can be obtained.
 This said i see also some very high end clock generator powered by SMPS and no filter at the input.
 However i have the feeling that those SMPS are not the normal PS we found around.  They must be pretty special indeed.
 I will look for the filter you mention.    I am sure i would get a remarkable benefit from using it.
 Thanks a lot again.
 Have a nice day,   gino


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> Thanks, I was on the phone with Toby from Blue Circle for almost an hour today. Really nice man, fascinating stories. I'm holding off as even they are careful not to say that utility power noise causes any audible issues.
> *They are comfortable saying that utility power is "dirty" but they are clear that they will not equate that with audible issues...  *


 
  
 Hi personally i think it depends on:
 1)  how the PS is designed and realized
 2)  how dirty is the utility power
 I tend to agree that a very very good PS should have a great noise filtering effect. In that case additional filtering is not needed of course.
 But how many PS are like that ? the evidence is *when you change the AC power cable*.
 Some cables act like filters and the resulting sound is cleaner. With a very good PS the differences in sound are much much lower.
 And digital equipment are the most sensitive to mains power quality by far.  In some extreme case i have seen used even batteries (this is too much and also not very practical)
  
*I like very much indeed the design of the power supplies in the Schiit Audio dacs* ... those are very fine PS indeed.
 And i think they are one of the reasons of the very good sound of those units)
  
 What i really do not like instead is when i see a transformer soldered directly on the same PCB of the circuits.  This is crazy.
 Even my cat knows that mains transformers vibrate. And some very very much.
 Better to stick them on some rubber vibes absorbers fixed to the chassis. Much much better.
  
 Regards,  gino


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> Thanks Jamie, I think I'll just go with a basic Digiflex cable for now, they seem to be well made and have a good reputation. I just wasn't sure if there were any particular configurations of the AES cable that should be considered. I guess not which makes things easier.


 
  
 Hi look at this ... it is a little expensive but it is definitive. The professionals use it.  Mogami is very good indeed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-ft-Mogami-W3080-XLR-3-pin-AES-EBU-Cable-w-Black-Neutrik-Gold-Connectors-/291358357980?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d64fb9dc
  
 Bye, gino


----------



## auvgeek

ginetto61 said:


> Hi look at this ... it is a little expensive but it is definitive. The professionals use it.  Mogami is very good indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I've heard that because of the speed of digital transmission, the shortest cable you want to use 1.5m/5 ft. Source: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm
  
 I'll grab a AES cable as soon as I read a few more reviews of the Tanly, MX-U8, and U12. Right now I'm leaning towards the MX-U8 as the best value (for me), but if the Tanly is gobs better, I may go that way. I'm also trying to understand all the mods done in this thread. I'm an engineer (not EE), but you guys are way over my head right now!


----------



## ginetto61

auvgeek said:


> I've heard that because of the speed of digital transmission, the shortest cable you want to use 1.5m/5 ft.
> Source: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm


 
  
 Hi well i think you can find longer for sure.   I have seen limitations only for the max length here
  
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=S/PDIF
  
 maybe they are right.  My aes/ebu cable is 3 meters by the way. Not big difference in price.
 But quality is important.  Any top pro brand would do fine, like Canare, Mogami, Gotham, etc.


> I'll grab a AES cable as soon as I read a few more reviews of the Tanly, MX-U8, and U12. Right now I'm leaning towards the MX-U8 as the best value (for me), *but if the Tanly is gobs better*, I may go that way.
> I'm also trying to understand all the mods done in this thread. I'm an engineer (not EE), but you guys are way over my head right now!


 
 Tanly ? what is ? is it expensive ?    honestly what i have learned comes mostly from technical forums like this one.   There are also very competent people.  In some you find also very kind professionals ready to share knowledge. 
 not that i have learnt a lot... but it is only my fault. 
 Thanks,  gino


----------



## Alexsander

Real price Tanly Audio USB converter 300-350 usd (IMHO), but in stock the price is overstated....570usd -it is expensive ....
 We will wait when the price becomes more democratic


----------



## ginetto61

alexsander said:


> Real price Tanly Audio USB converter 300-350 usd (IMHO), but in stock the price is overstated....570usd -it is expensive ....
> We will wait when the price becomes more democratic


 
  
 Hi actually i do not know if it is an issue of democracy but i have the feeling that some units are a little overdesigned and consequently overpriced.
 I am testing some very very cheap usb to spdif converters. I have one for instance from _*Breeze Audio*_ with XMOS chip that looks very very nice indeed.
 I am about to try it as soon as i will receive a usb isolator that will give the possibility to use and external low noise PS ... i have already one linear that sounds good (i.e. effective mains noise filtering and low residual noise).
 I am counting the days ... i am sure i will be surprised.  The unit costed some 50-60 USD ... is this one here
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/18/81/83/61/minish10.jpg
 Unfortunately it does not have a AES/EBU digital out that i adore ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  this connection is really something 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 For me much better than spdif and toslink (toslink in even not so cheap device can be ****y)
 I have bought other little things from this Company.
 They are great at quality/price ratio .... really great
 Maybe they are more democratic ?   " low jitter to the masses " ??? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Regards,  gino


----------



## auvgeek

alexsander said:


> Real price Tanly Audio USB converter 300-350 usd (IMHO), but in stock the price is overstated....570usd -it is expensive ....
> We will wait when the price becomes more democratic


 

 "Real price" as in the production cost or the market value? Do you think the price will drop substantially as it gains more (global) market share?


----------



## ginetto61

Hi anoth


auvgeek said:


> I've heard that because of the speed of digital transmission, the shortest cable you want to use 1.5m/5 ft. Source: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm


 
  
 Hi again. Just to add that spdif is good but often bad implemented (like optical also).   Just as a start the right connection for real 75 ohm is bnc and not RCA as universally used. 
 This can cause problems in the signal transmission.  Instead AES/EBU is truly 110 ohm.  Actually it is a standard develop for professional duties.  It must be good and reliable.  


> I'll grab a AES cable as soon as I read a few more reviews of the Tanly, MX-U8, and U12. Right now _*I'm leaning towards the MX-U8 as the best value (for me)*_, but if the Tanly is gobs better, I may go that way. I'm also trying to understand all the mods done in this thread. I'm an engineer (not EE), but you guys are way over my head right now!


 
 I've bought one also myself and waiting to receive it.   I read great things of this interface.  And it should have isolated usb.   Very nice unit indeed.
 Good luck with your search.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## blasjw

Received my MX-U8 today to compare to my U12.  Unfortunately, the AES output doesn't seem to be working.


----------



## auvgeek

blasjw said:


> Received my MX-U8 today to compare to my U12.  Unfortunately, the AES output doesn't seem to be working.


 
 Hmm...that's concerning! Please let us know if you can determine the problem and a fix.


----------



## ginetto61

blasjw said:


> Received my MX-U8 today to compare to my U12.  Unfortunately, the AES output doesn't seem to be working.


 
  
 Hi really sorry to hear this.  I bought it especially with AES connection in mind
 Were you using the same input/AES cable/source/dac before ? which drivers have you installed ?
  
_*Have you emailed the seller/manufacturer ? *_
_*do they have a website with tech support section ?*_
  
 I am contacting my seller who seemed quite ready to answer to question.
 I think i read somewhere that AES e spdif out are in someway linked ... but i am not an expert.
 Very worrying news indeed.
 Let us know please of any evolution.
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## blasjw

ginetto61 said:


> Hi really sorry to hear this.  I bought it especially with AES connection in mind
> Were you using the same input before ?
> 
> _*Have you emailed the seller/manufacturer ? *_
> ...


 
  
 Neither my Adcom GDA-600 or my Gustard X12 could get a lock on the AES ouput from the MX-U8.  I tried two known good cables, one Mogami and one Hosa.  However, I didn't have any problem at with the optical and coax outputs from the MX-U8.  Not sure if the coax and AES outputs can be used simultaneously but I tried with only the AES output connected and still no dice.  I even opened the unit in case there was some kind of jumper/switch to toggle between AES and coax but I didn't see anything.  I haven't contacted the seller yet but I may do that on Monday.  Worst case, I will just try to troubleshoot and fix the problem myself.  BTW, my Gustard U12 AES output is working just fine with the above cables/DACs.


----------



## ginetto61

blasjw said:


> Neither my Adcom GDA-600 or my Gustard X12 could get a lock on the AES ouput from the MX-U8.  I tried two known good cables, one Mogami and one Hosa.  However, I didn't have any problem at with the optical and coax outputs from the MX-U8.  Not sure if the coax and AES outputs can be used simultaneously but I tried with only the AES output connected and still no dice.
> I even opened the unit in case there was some kind of jumper/switch to toggle between AES and coax but I didn't see anything.
> I haven't contacted the seller yet but I may do that on Monday.  Worst case, I will just try to troubleshoot and fix the problem myself.
> BTW, my Gustard U12 AES output is working just fine with the above cables/DACs.


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice
 I am really concerned.  I have also a U12 myself that i am using without problem with spdif and AES (not at the same time).
 I read somewhere that usually spdif out is obtained from one phase of the AES/EBU  ???  
  
https://static.gearslutz.com/board/imgext.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcbcmusicblog.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F11%2Faes_to_spdif_adapter1.jpg&h=59a6335d3ff8d42d00902b1742e34e91
  
 However If you will get any answer from the seller please report.
 Very bad news indeed.  I love AES connection.
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## rurika

The Tanly arrived. I tried it with OPPO's driver and it works very very well.
 I can't get Tanly and U12 work at the same time. My audio PC can recognized only one of them (in CORE mode). If I want to try the other one I have to go back to GUI mode and install driver again. It recognized both of them when in GUI mode but only one of them when in CORE mode.
  
 Look like my U12 will up for sale soon.
  
 I saw someone has a problem when install OPPO's driver with MX-U8.
 You can try to use v2.23 to detect your MX-U8 first. ( cause v2.23 has detect function. If it can't detect the unit. It can't install driver). So, to make it works. Change VID,PID in v2.23 and try it. If it can see your MX-U8 then you can use that VID,PID with OPPO's driver. (with disable driver enforcement)
 Hope this will help.


----------



## MINORISUKE

blasjw said:


> Received my MX-U8 today to compare to my U12.  Unfortunately, the AES output doesn't seem to be working.


 
 Except the DSD channel mix issue (I mentioned previously) via I2S, AES/EBU on my MX-U8 works fine for all the sampling frequencies up to 192kHz.


----------



## ginetto61

blasjw said:


> _*my Adcom GDA-600 or my Gustard X12 *_


 
  
 Hi and sorry to bother you and going OT
 May i ask you which of your dacs do you like better ?  i see that the Adcom has pcm63 multibit ... very rare and wanted. 
*I rate ability of soundstage rendering over any other characteristic in digital equipment* (actually not only in digital)
 Thanks a lot,  gino


----------



## ginetto61

minorisuke said:


> Except the DSD channel mix issue (I mentioned previously) via I2S,* AES/EBU on my MX-U8 works fine for all the sampling frequencies up to 192kHz.*


 
 Great ! thanks !  
 I have more hopes now ... i have the home full of little boxes ... 
 gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

So, what driver consideration do I need to take with regards to the MX-U8 for my NAD M51?


----------



## hgpsemaj

Mr. Huang of Gustard informed me tonight, Gustard is going to launch their latest DAC - X20 in June,
  
  
 Twin 9018; Twin toroidal.

  

  
 These are the prototype pictures, they might carry out finalise upgrade at the latest stage.


----------



## blasjw

minorisuke said:


> Except the DSD channel mix issue (I mentioned previously) via I2S, AES/EBU on my MX-U8 works fine for all the sampling frequencies up to 192kHz.


 
 Yeah, I'm afraid I got a defective unit.  I will contact the seller and see about getting it replaced.


----------



## blasjw

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and sorry to bother you and going OT
> May i ask you which of your dacs do you like better ?  i see that the Adcom has pcm63 multibit ... very rare and wanted.
> *I rate ability of soundstage rendering over any other characteristic in digital equipment* (actually not only in digital)
> Thanks a lot,  gino


 
 I haven't spent a lot of time with the Gustard yet.  But I had a listening session last night with the Adcom and it sounded quite good.  Best I've heard yet.  Soundstage was very good.  I plan on modding the hell out of it so hopefully it can get even better.


----------



## blasjw

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice
> I am really concerned.  I have also a U12 myself that i am using without problem with spdif and AES (not at the same time).
> I read somewhere that usually spdif out is obtained from one phase of the AES/EBU  ???
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the info.  Too bad I don't currently have a scope to put on it to figure out what's going on.


----------



## ginetto61

blasjw said:


> I haven't spent a lot of time with the Gustard yet.  But I had a listening session last night with the Adcom and it sounded quite good.  Best I've heard yet.
> Soundstage was very good.  I plan on modding the hell out of it so hopefully it can get even better.


 
  
 Hi i have read all the discussion about multibit dacs like your Adcom.  You have a very good dac i guess.
 I am now using the U12 with an Apogee Rosetta 200, a pro unit with a Canare AES cable.  Not bad but is delta-sigma.   I think i will stick with it for a while but looking for some lucky find in the 2nd hand market.
 I should receive the Melodious in some days ... i hope that at least on the converter side i will be done.  And it is not a little thing.   A good usb converter is key for good overall sound. 
 Thanks a lot again and good luck with the seller 
 Bye,   gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

Can anybody who has implemented the MX-U8 in their system can you tell me about what is involved in terms of drivers and configuration? I take it you need a driver for Windows 7 in my case that allows the computer to recognize it, but if that is the case where do the drivers come from? Sorry for the ignorance, but not something I've done before. Cheers.


----------



## blasjw

sonic defender said:


> Can anybody who has implemented the MX-U8 in their system can you tell me about what is involved in terms of drivers and configuration? I take it you need a driver for Windows 7 in my case that allows the computer to recognize it, but if that is the case where do the drivers come from? Sorry for the ignorance, but not something I've done before. Cheers.


 
*URL of Driver: http://pan.baidu.com/s/1eQo0Rku  
 Password: crwp​*


----------



## Sonic Defender

blasjw said:


> *URL of Driver: http://pan.baidu.com/s/1eQo0Rku
> Password: crwp​*


 

 Thanks brother. Will this work with JRiver 20? Are there any configuration setting sor anything that you're aware of? Cheers.


----------



## blasjw

sonic defender said:


> Thanks brother. Will this work with JRiver 20? Are there any configuration setting sor anything that you're aware of? Cheers.


 
 Should be fine with JRiver.  I'm using Foobar and I didn't need to use any special settings for PCM.  DSD on the other hand is a whole different story.


----------



## Sonic Defender

blasjw said:


> Should be fine with JRiver.  I'm using Foobar and I didn't need to use any special settings for PCM.  DSD on the other hand is a whole different story.


 

 No worries as I don't bother with DSD; dubious benefits plus I have no DSD albums and no urge to repurchase my existing collection. How does the driver work? I mean, do I just install it and do nothing else, or does it need to be setup in Windows under Sound in anyway? I use the NAD M51 USB driver as the default driver in Windows and output to it via WASPI in JRiver. Any information is really appreciated.


----------



## blasjw

sonic defender said:


> No worries as I don't bother with DSD; dubious benefits plus I have no DSD albums and no urge to repurchase my existing collection. How does the driver work? I mean, do I just install it and do nothing else, or does it need to be setup in Windows under Sound in anyway? I use the NAD M51 USB driver as the default driver in Windows and output to it via WASPI in JRiver. Any information is really appreciated.


 
 All I did was install the driver, proceed to the sound control panel, set the new device as the default playback device, and adjusted the bit-depth/sample rate there as necessary.


----------



## Sonic Defender

blasjw said:


> All I did was install the driver, proceed to the sound control panel, set the new device as the default playback device, and adjusted the bit-depth/sample rate there as necessary.


 

 Cool, so I assume as the majority of my collection is 16bit just set that and 44K as the sample rate?


----------



## blasjw

sonic defender said:


> Cool, so I assume as the majority of my collection is 16bit just set that and 44K as the sample rate?


 
 Yes, that would the safest bet however it also depends on if you want to upsample/downsample and what your DAC can handle.  I would say use the following guideline:
  
 Bit-depth/sample rate >= source material and <= DAC specs.
  
 Ther reason for this range is that if you were to exceed your DAC specs than obviously that won't work.  For example, I can't exceed 16/48 for my GDA-600.
  
 If you choose something less than your source material, probably not advisable unless necessary because you're downsampling i.e. losing data.  However, this is necessary in some cases.  Like if I were to play 24/192 source material output to my GDA-600, I would be required to step it down to 16/48.
  
 For 16/44.1 source material, I could choose to upsample it to 24/192 and send it to my Gustard X12 which can handle that.  Or, you could just leave it at 16/44.1  in which case you would have no up or down sampling.
  
 Hope that helps!


----------



## Jamiee

rurika said:


> I saw someone has a problem when install OPPO's driver with MX-U8.
> You can try to use v2.23 to detect your MX-U8 first. ( cause v2.23 has detect function. If it can't detect the unit. It can't install driver). So, to make it works. Change VID,PID in v2.23 and try it. If it can see your MX-U8 then you can use that VID,PID with OPPO's driver. (with disable driver enforcement)
> Hope this will help.


 
  
 Yeah that was me.   I took the VID,PID from the stock v2.19 drivers & also confirmed this with the USB Descriptor Dumper tool.
 After modding the Oppo v2.24 driver with the above, it installed without problem, but Windows device manager showed a problem and I couldn't get the MX-U8 connected (even after a reboot).
  
 I was however successful connecting to the MX-U8 by installing the WaveIO v2.23 driver after modifing the VID,PID.


----------



## Sonic Defender

I will leave it at 16/44.1. I do have two albums that are 24bit, but I play them rarely anyway and I assume they will just be played at the lower bit depth and sample anyway so shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## Jamiee

jamiee said:


> Yeah that was me.   I took the VID,PID from the stock v2.19 drivers & also confirmed this with the USB Descriptor Dumper tool.
> After modding the Oppo v2.24 driver with the above, it installed without problem, but Windows device manager showed a problem and I couldn't get the MX-U8 connected (even after a reboot).
> 
> I was however successful connecting to the MX-U8 by installing the WaveIO v2.23 driver after modifing the VID,PID.


 
  
 OK... GOT IT!   Problem solved....... 
 Turns out there were some other VID,PID's I had previously put in the Oppo driver for other devices that were somehow causing a conflict with the MX-U8.
 I removed them from the Oppo files and now Windows properly sees the MX-U8 after installing the driver.


----------



## ginetto61

Hi and good morning !
 i have not yet received my MX-U8 and *i am already thinking about a DIY modification.*
 I am a little obsessed by power supply quality lately.
 Therefore i would like *to use an external and high quality DC power supply *i have at hand to power the unit.
  
 The idea is to put a panel socket for a VDC power supply
  
http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v2/1677945550_3/15Pcs-5-5-mm-x-2-1mm-DC-Power-Jack-Socket-Female-Panel-Mount-Connector-Newest.jpg
  
 and connect it to some point on the PCB of the unit, before the regulators, to provide really clean DC to them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I would even use batteries if they were not a pita .... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The quality PS i have at hand can provide up to 30VDC with very low noise and great mains filtering.
 Anyone who already knows the circuit ? would a single DC power supply work ?
 Of course i will keep the original parts untouched
 Just adding a DC power supply input, maybe with just a 10-20mF buffering cap inside the unit
 I like extremely the external power supply concept ... is really really smart.
 I did some tests on a line preamp and i was sold on the concept.
  
 I would have done the same on the Gustard but, from what i understand, the MX-U8 is a better unit ?
  
 I am more and more convinced that* a good usb to spdif/AES converter can be a robust corner stone of a good playback system*.
 As i feel also that it will make all the discussion about OS and pc HW less important.
 I read some comments about what could very well be the best usb to spdif converter aroun, the unit from Berkeley Audio.
 During the testing even very cheap pcs connected with off-the-shelf cables sounded just perfect.
 It was like when you have the perfect reclocker ... *they cancel any problem upstream them *
*The digital signal emerges as brand new ... without original sin ... *
 But i have to find confirmations of this feeling.
  
 Thanks a lot for the very valuable information
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## blasjw

Looks like the MX-U8 is using a single Linear LT1963 regulator which uses pin2 (denoted by red box below) for input which is typically shorted to pin1 (shutdown) as appears to be the case here:


----------



## ginetto61

blasjw said:


> Looks like the MX-U8 is using a single Linear LT1963 regulator which uses pin2 (denoted by red box below) for input which is typically shorted to pin1 (shutdown) as appears to be the case here:


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable reply
 I do not understand the circuit ... one regulator and two diode bridges ?
 Then i would try to *connect the DC socket to the cap feeding this regulator *... but i see 4 blue caps ... which one is the possible docking point ?
 Just to solder a two wires cable to its terminal and it should be done.  Am i wrong ?
 And in this way there will be two stages of regulation in series, for an even lower resulting noise.  Very low.
 I am quite sure i will do the mod after measuring the voltage on the caps.
 Thanks again,   gino


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Mr. Huang of Gustard informed me tonight, Gustard is going to launch their latest DAC - X20 in June,
> 
> 
> Twin 9018; Twin toroidal.
> ...


 
  
 Hi hgpsemaj,
  
 Thank you for the update!
 I see massive transformers and an extended input section which almost is as big as it's DAC section.
  
 Do they have any info on how it sounds? It looks like it has symmetric output stage, but i can't see if it has discreet output stage.
  
 Cheers


----------



## bimmer100

Do you think there would be any reason to get a gustard u12 USB interface for my 2015 edition audio-gd nfb-28 and run it with i2s hdmi? Or would I be splitting hairs?
There is a good deal on the u12 on massdrop right now. I'm wondering. The di-2014 is pretty pricey.


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Hi hgpsemaj,
> 
> Thank you for the update!
> I see massive transformers and an extended input section which almost is as big as it's DAC section.
> ...


 
  
 Hello abartels,
  
 Mr. Huang informed me X20 is designed with symmetric output stage, and he also claimed X20 focus on authentic and realistic sound. He will forward us the rear image of X20 tomorrow.
  
  
 Regards,
  
  
 hgpsemaj


----------



## auvgeek

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello abartels,
> 
> Mr. Huang informed me X20 is designed with symmetric output stage, and he also claimed X20 focus on authentic and realistic sound. He will forward us the rear image of X20 tomorrow.
> 
> ...


 

 Would you mind posting these details and images in the Gustard Amplifiers and DACs thread? I only recently started tuning into this thread, and I would have hated to miss important info on the X20 because I was assuming people would post it there...


----------



## blasjw

I contacted the seller about my defective MX-U8 and they're reluctant to replace it claiming that if SPDIF works then AES works too.  I respectfully disagree, especially after looking at the circuit board.  there any number of points of failure including the connector itself.  I see that the output goes through a transformer which also could be bad.


----------



## ginetto61

blasjw said:


> I contacted the seller about my defective MX-U8 and they're reluctant to replace it claiming that if SPDIF works then AES works too.  I respectfully disagree, especially after looking at the circuit board.
> there any number of points of failure including the connector itself.  I see that the output goes through a transformer which also could be bad.


 
  
 Hi and sorry again to hear of your bad luck with the unit.  I wonder if any form of guarantee is available.
 It could be very well the case of a bad joint/part somewhere downstream the point where the AES signal is taken to form the SPDIF signal, assuming that the SPDIF works fine.
 I would prefer AES over SPDIF because i read the opinion of a praised digital designer.  So if my dac had a AES input i would use that port.
 They should check this for free (also because is not a big deal for a manufacturer ... even replace a board is not that big issue).
 I received yesterday mine ... it works via AES.
 Maybe it is too early to say ... but i am impressed very positively.  The sound is already very convincing. Detailed and relaxed and IMHO can only get better after break-in.
 I would ask for service under guarantee.   They should provide that. Any manufacturer provides some form of guarantee.
 However the unit is worth some trouble.  It is good.  Very.
 Good luck.  Regards,  gino


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello abartels,
> 
> Mr. Huang informed me X20 is designed with symmetric output stage, and he also claimed X20 focus on authentic and realistic sound. He will forward us the rear image of X20 tomorrow.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi hgpsemaj,
  
 Sounds great!
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Alex


----------



## hgpsemaj

blasjw said:


> I contacted the seller about my defective MX-U8 and they're reluctant to replace it claiming that if SPDIF works then AES works too.  I respectfully disagree, especially after looking at the circuit board.  there any number of points of failure including the connector itself.  I see that the output goes through a transformer which also could be bad.


 
  
  
 Tell your seller stop taking a diabolical liberty.
  
 All items manufacture by 'Melodious Audio' are coved by guarantee and warranty which are clearly stated in their official website as follow:


----------



## ginetto61

Hi i have a question on the Gustard U12 that i still have
  
 Does anyone know _*if the U12  is " USB Class Compliant " ?*_  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 i will test this asap but if someone already knows ... i am really curious. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Because i have an insane project in mind ... using an Android media player with the " Usb Audio Player Pro " app, that is said to work with USB Class compliant devices, as a source for the U12  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
_*https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.extreamsd.usbaudioplayerpro&hl=en*_
  
 I have come to the conclusion that the lighter the OS the better can be the sound
 To check the weight of an OS one telling way is to look at its requirements for compatible HW
 And *Android OS runs also on very poor HW *....  but i have to try of course.
  
 Thanks a lot,  gino


----------



## SodaBoy

Thanks hgpsemaj.
  
 I think we need an X20 thread in the dedicated source component forum or the Gustard DAC thread should be moved there. I don't know why we have two Gustard threads in the headphone amp forum, one in computer audio, but nothing in the dedicated source component forum.


----------



## Jamiee

blasjw said:


> I contacted the seller about my defective MX-U8 and they're reluctant to replace it claiming that if SPDIF works then AES works too.  I respectfully disagree, especially after looking at the circuit board.  there any number of points of failure including the connector itself.  I see that the output goes through a transformer which also could be bad.


 
  
 That's rather unfortunate...  Keep working on the seller or maybe talk to the manufacture directly as they should swap out the unit for you (or at least change the main board for a fully working one).
  
 I have verified that both COAX and AES out's work fine with my U8.
  
 That said, I did something yesterday that I haven't done in a while....  I bypassed the U8 and plugged the USB cable directly into my April Music DP1 DAC.
 After a driver re-install and setup - I can honestly say that I didn't realize what I was missing by playing around with these relatively inexpensive DDC's.  The U10, U12, MX-U8, are all very good in their own right, but I would be remiss to say that they do a better job than the DP1 on its own. 
 Yes the DP1 is in a different price category - guess I was hoping it would be something of a David vs. Goliath showdown.
 The amazing part is how close David get's to Goliath here, but the solid reality is that Goliath ultimately wins this battle of sonic prowess.
  
 I also have an April Music Stello U3 DDC which I will put back in the mix over the next few days.  If my memory serves me correctly, the U3 is very similar sounding to the DP1 (after all the DP1 essentially has a U3 built into it), with maybe just a hair increase in overall resolution.


----------



## ginetto61

jamiee said:


> That's rather unfortunate...  Keep working on the seller or maybe talk to the manufacture directly as they should swap out the unit for you (or at least change the main board for a fully working one).
> 
> I have verified that both COAX and AES out's work fine with my U8.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks for the very interesting comparison. 
*Which interface have you actually tested with the DP1 ?  U10, U12 or MX-U8 ?*
 in case you have tested more than one which one the best ?
 Actually i think that if the usb input is very well designed and realized the fact to have it inside the dac is a benefit
 Thanks a lot,  gino


----------



## auvgeek

blasjw said:


> I contacted the seller about my defective MX-U8 and they're reluctant to replace it claiming that if SPDIF works then AES works too.  I respectfully disagree, especially after looking at the circuit board.


 
 If it's an online seller, please let us know who it is so I/we can avoid them.


----------



## ginetto61

Hi i bought my MX-U8 from this seller
  
http://www.ebay.it/usr/wsz0304
  
 the unit works from the AES ,,, have not tried the other outs
 Even brand new i like it very much.  I hope to have found a good bridge from the pc world to audio finally
 But i have learned also something in the travel ... i made some mistakes of approach
 For instance usb isolation with some units has no benefit.  With other instead remarkable improvements.
 If spdif is what you need maybe some cheap units can perform nicely as well.  However they usually do not have AES out.
 AES is a more pro standard. All pro dacs have one.
 Pro dacs for me are a little underrated ... at least from a measurements point of view some are quite outstanding.
 Bye,  gino


----------



## auvgeek

Thanks, gino! I used pollychen for my Gustard H10, so I'll probably go with him on the MX-U8, pending @blasjw response. But I wasn't trying to derail this thread into who you should buy from; I just thought it would be good for everyone to know if there's a seller reluctant to deal with an obvious warranty issue.


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *auvgeek* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ...   *But I wasn't trying to derail this thread ....*


 
  
 Hi me also i do not want to go OT.
 Personally i think that *the Melodious MX-U8 deserves a specific thread *where to put experiences of use and so on.
 I think it is a unit with a great quality/price ratio ...
 Bye gino


----------



## Skogkatt

blasjw said:


> I contacted the seller about my defective MX-U8 and they're reluctant to replace it claiming that if SPDIF works then AES works too.  I respectfully disagree, especially after looking at the circuit board.  there any number of points of failure including the connector itself.  I see that the output goes through a transformer which also could be bad.


 

 The picture you posted shows that there are two 110 Ohm resistors missing: one resistor is in series to the primary of the
 balanced out and the other one is close to the top left corner of the red rectangle. Both resistors are clearly soldered to the
 PCB in other pics of the MX-U8 appearing in the WEB.
  
 Whether deciding to return the unit is entirely up to you, it might be easier and faster soldering the resistors by your self: a couple of 220 Ohm
 resistors in 0805 package soldered in parallel will give you a perfect 110 ohms like reported on the PCB (110 ohms is commonly used to
 adapt the impedance of the balanced output which is 110 Ohm - a single 110 Ohm is of course better but it might more difficult to find).
  
 Good luck.


----------



## abartels

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable reply
> I do not understand the circuit ... one regulator and two diode bridges ?
> Then i would try to *connect the DC socket to the cap feeding this regulator *... but i see 4 blue caps ... which one is the possible docking point ?
> Just to solder a two wires cable to its terminal and it should be done.  Am i wrong ?
> ...


 
  
 I myself would (and will) go for external feeding XO's with ultra low noise psu.
 You can order the 0.8uV ultra low noise from DIYINHK, as earlier posted. It is a double version and needs 2 seperate 6~ to 8~ Volt transformer ( transformer 6Vx2 15VA).
  
 If you doing so, also replace the stock XO's (which aren't bad at all). Just put them on a socket and configure that socket to receive its GND and Power from 0.8uV psu.
  
 Please be aware to jumper the 0.8uV psu to 3.3V output before connecting everything.
  
 I have the components at hand to install 0.8uV psu, only need one 2x6V~ transformer which will fit in MX-U8.
  
 Btw, if placing 0.8uV noise psu, be aware that the stock Panasonic caps won't fit in enclosure MX-U8. You need lower profile caps.
 The 0.8 uV ultra low noise psu (  http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/73-08uv-ultralow-noise-dac-power-supply-regulator-33v5v-1ax2.html  ) has 2x Panasonic FC 5600uF-25V with a hight of 40mm.
  
 I advise replacing them with Nichicon HW series 4700uF-25V ( UHW1E470MHD ) with a hight of 31,5mm
 You could try 5600uF-25V ( UHW1E560MHD ) with a hight of 35,5mm, but I'm not sure if it will fit.
  
 There's not much room to place this psu, best is to remove faceplate and mount psu on its top (top of the caps) at bottom plate, and fix it with some "construction kit".
 Be sure you can connect the wires after mounting the pcb, and be sure you don't short circuit anything,,,,,
  
  
 I will post some pictures when starting this mod.
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## ginetto61

Hi i will try to take some pics


abartels said:


> I myself would (and will) go for external feeding XO's with ultra low noise psu.
> You can order the 0.8uV ultra low noise from DIYINHK, as earlier posted. It is a double version and needs 2 seperate 6~ to 8~ Volt transformer ( transformer 6Vx2 15VA).
> ....
> I will post some pictures when starting this mod.
> ...


 
  
 Hi Alex, thanks and very interesting indeed.  But this is way out of my ability
 I was thinking to something much more basic.  To send to the caps before the regulator (i understand there is just one regulator ?) a DC regulated voltage bypassing the internal toroidal
 In this way there will be two stage of regulations.   I have already a suitable lab power supply 0-30 V that i could use (adjustable of course on the V needed).
 Just a DC socket on the back and some wires will be needed on the unit and the mod will be reversible.  The unit could still work with the original PS.
 In this way i should be able to lower noise, increase mains filtering, avoid any vibration induced noise
 But i have to look at the pcb and measure the DC voltage before the regulator
 Please post your pictures
 Thanks and regards,  gino


----------



## auvgeek

abartels said:


> I myself would (and will) go for external feeding XO's with ultra low noise psu.
> You can order the 0.8uV ultra low noise from DIYINHK, as earlier posted. It is a double version and needs 2 seperate 6~ to 8~ Volt transformer ( transformer 6Vx2 15VA).
> 
> If you doing so, also replace the stock XO's (which aren't bad at all). Just put them on a socket and configure that socket to receive its GND and Power from 0.8uV psu.
> ...


 

 This sounds awesome, but definitely beyond my current capabilities without some help. It's probably too much to ask, but I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one who would be very grateful if you posted a step-by-step "how-to" with pictures. Just an idea...


----------



## abartels

ginetto61 said:


> Hi i will try to take some pics
> 
> Hi Alex, thanks and very interesting indeed.  But this is way out of my ability
> I was thinking to something much more basic.  To send to the caps before the regulator (i understand there is just one regulator ?) a DC regulated voltage bypassing the internal toroidal
> ...


 
  
 Hi Gino,
  
 Hmm, it's a possibility, just measure the DC Voltage after the big BC caps, then you know what you have to feed the caps (i would still use them!!)
  
 Yes, I will post pictures if I start this project.
  
 @ auvgeek:
 And yes, I wil do step by step tutorial including pictures.
  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## abartels

Hi guys,
  
 Just started a new thread about Melodious, this will keep thing on topic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/767935/melodious-xm-u8-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip
  
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *abartels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Hi Gino,
> Hmm, it's a possibility, just measure the DC Voltage after the big BC caps, then you know what you have to feed the caps (i would still use them!!)
> Yes, I will post pictures if I start this project.
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks for the valuable advice
 My main concern with digital is the RF/HF noise that can be found in the mains
 I have often notice that during sunday in my industrial area sound is better with the factories closed.
 The toroidals by themselves they do not provide a good filtering of this noise.   I like very much indeed the way Schiit Audio make the PS for their dacs. 
 A very good reference and i think also contributes to the very good sound.
 RF noise is very bad for digital.   I do not like toroidal transformers with digital.  So the idea is to bypass it mainly and keep the already decent internal regulation.
 My supply has some 0.5mV of residual ripple but very good RF rejection (no toroidal inside but a robust EI transformer)
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## stuartmc

ginetto61 said:


> Hi i have a question on the Gustard U12 that i still have
> 
> Does anyone know _[COLOR=FF0000]*if the U12  is " USB Class Compliant " ?*[/COLOR]_  :rolleyes:
> 
> ...




Gino, the U12 is compliant. I am using an android tablet with the UAPP program and it sounds great. Interestingly, I could use the native Android USB media player on my Xiaomi Mi pad to stream Tidal through the U12, but it didn't work when I tried the Tanly DDC. Apparently the Tanly has updated firmware that requires a more current android kernel. I switched to a new Samsung Tab S and it works fine with the Tanly in both native mode and with UAPP.

With all this discussion and concern about dirty USB power, I would think a battery operated Android device would alleviate much of this problem. My current set up actually sounds better to me than playing the same music on CD with my Rega Apollo R as the transport. I now rip the CD to a flac file and play it on my tablet with UAPP into the Tanly DDC. It's got to be about the jitter reduction. It sounds crazy good and I didn't expect it to best the Rega.


----------



## ginetto61

stuartmc said:


> *Gino, the U12 is compliant. I am using an android tablet with the UAPP program and it sounds great.*


 
  
 Hi ! this is a very good news indeed.  I have a media player Himedia q5 II with UAPP uploaded.  
  
http://www.amazon.it/HiMedia-Q5-II-Android-MediaPlayer-HD-Audio/dp/B00F7U16A6
  

  
 I have a cheap Muse Audio usb dac compatible and the sound was very interesting. I guess with the U12 connected to my best dac should be even better. I am excited to try
  


> Interestingly, I could use the native Android USB media player on my Xiaomi Mi pad to stream Tidal through the U12, but it didn't work when I tried the Tanly DDC.
> Apparently the Tanly has updated firmware that requires a more current android kernel. I switched to a new Samsung Tab S and it works fine with the Tanly in both native mode and with UAPP.
> *With all this discussion and concern about dirty USB power, I would think a battery operated Android device would alleviate much of this problem. *


 
  
 I think the same but then an external usb power supply can be easily found.  I have already a Teradak cheap unit and it works.  But i am waiting for an usb isolator with a DC socket on the pcb to use an external power supply
 I have a very good one that can provide up to 2A quite clean ... if it will work ok i will report but i have only cd files ... no hi rez here. 
  


> My current set up actually sounds better to me than playing the same music on CD with my Rega Apollo R as the transport.
> I now rip the CD to a flac file and play it on my tablet with UAPP into the Tanly DDC. It's got to be about the jitter reduction. It sounds crazy good and I didn't expect it to best the Rega.


 
  
 That is very interesting because the Apollo i understand is one of the good ones indeed !   
 I go a little OT briefly now.  I am very interested in very slim OS, operating system able to run also on very poor HW.   And Android is one of these.  Problem is that no audio manufacturer provide drivers for Android devices. 
 But with the Gustard could be a killer digital source indeed.   Personally i think that the Gustard could have a better PS and isolated usb port and it would be even better.
 I have both the U10 and the U12.  Like them a lot  ... but not love them 
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## mikoss

Hey guys
  
 Just got the Gustard U12 and I'm wondering which drivers to use for it... right now I am using XMOS-Melodius(v2.19.0).exe
  
 It sounds good but not great... any suggestions for other drivers, or am I using the correct ones? I'm just using WASAPI playback with Foobar in Windows 7.


----------



## blasjw

jamiee said:


> That's rather unfortunate...  Keep working on the seller or maybe talk to the manufacture directly as they should swap out the unit for you (or at least change the main board for a fully working one).
> 
> I have verified that both COAX and AES out's work fine with my U8.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, I'm still working with the seller.  I responded to their first e-mail so hopefully they will come back with an RAM.  If not, I'll try to get in touch with Melodious.


----------



## blasjw

auvgeek said:


> If it's an online seller, please let us know who it is so I/we can avoid them.


 

 It was shenzhenaudio.  I'm still working with them so let's see if they come back with an RMA.


----------



## blasjw

ginetto61 said:


> Hi me also i do not want to go OT.
> Personally i think that *the Melodious MX-U8 deserves a specific thread *where to put experiences of use and so on.
> I think it is a unit with a great quality/price ratio ...
> Bye gino


 

 No doubt.  I thought someone said earlier on this thread they were going to do that but I never saw it.
  
 Nevermind, I see abartels started the new thread now.


----------



## blasjw

skogkatt said:


> The picture you posted shows that there are two 110 Ohm resistors missing: one resistor is in series to the primary of the
> balanced out and the other one is close to the top left corner of the red rectangle. Both resistors are clearly soldered to the
> PCB in other pics of the MX-U8 appearing in the WEB.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes, I noticed those two myself but I wasn't sure if they were supposed to be that way or not.  Thanks for confirming what's supposed to be there.  At least we know why it's not working.  I would prefer to get it replaced if possible.   Soldering SMT is never fun but, worst case, I will do that.


----------



## Jamiee

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks for the very interesting comparison.
> *Which interface have you actually tested with the DP1 ?  U10, U12 or MX-U8 ?*
> in case you have tested more than one which one the best ?
> Actually i think that if the usb input is very well designed and realized the fact to have it inside the dac is a benefit
> Thanks a lot,  gino


 
  
 All of the above have been tested with the DP1.
 I can't say any were bad per-say, just different.  The two Gustard's sound quite similar but my preference here goes to the U12, primarily for the updates it has over the U10.
 The MX-U8 is more forward sounding out of the box compared to the Gustard's - Not a bad thing, just different.  After swapping out the fuse and adding Stillpoints ERS, the sound relaxed quite a bit (maybe a bit too much?).  It likely needs more burn-in time (especially the fuse), but I couldn't help the feeling that something was missing. As soon as I switched back to the DP1 everything just sounded "right" - More musical - Less digital.
  
 BTW, the DP1 does require 5V power, and even still I prefer it sonically to the MX-U8 which doesn't.....  Just some food for thought 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 (To be fair I'm feeding it battery power - so it's as clean as can be).


----------



## Jamiee

blasjw said:


> Yes, I noticed those two myself but I wasn't sure if they were supposed to be that way or not.  Thanks for confirming what's supposed to be there.  At least we know why it's not working.  I would prefer to get it replaced if possible.   Soldering SMT is never fun but, worst case, I will do that.


 

 Just looking at the photo's I took of the innards of my U8...... yes those resistor's should definitely be there!


----------



## Sonic Defender

blasjw said:


> It was shenzhenaudio.  I'm still working with them so let's see if they come back with an RMA.


 

 Crap, I just bought my U8 from them also. So does this mean that all of the units will not work with AES? I'm trying to determine if everybody has this defect, or just some of the units.


----------



## Jamiee

Bought my unit from there and it's fine.


----------



## Cool Barn

I love the idea of a company declining an RMA because it is totally outside the realms of possibility that a product they sell could actually be faulty, and then it turns out it's missing entire components on the PCB  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Anybody found 2.26 drivers with the TUSB Control Panel yet?


----------



## blasjw

cool barn said:


> I love the idea of a company declining an RMA because it is totally outside the realms of possibility that a product they sell could actually be faulty, and then it turns out it's missing entire components on the PCB
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 They ignored by 2nd e-mail so I just sent them a 3rd with a picture of the PCB.  Let's see if that works.


----------



## m0reilly

amazon is now offering them albeit via shenzhen, though one would have the amazon return option to lean on. best of luck. as for shenzhen they have been pretty good in responding to emails from my experience. in fact, i had contacted them right after i had heard of the melodious unit regarding the possibility of them carrying it, so they are open to communications. keep in mind the time difference. i'm sure they will make it good.


----------



## ginetto61

jamiee said:


> All of the above have been tested with the DP1.  I can't say any were bad per-say, just different.  The two Gustard's sound quite similar but my preference here goes to the U12, primarily for the updates it has over the U10.
> The MX-U8 is more forward sounding out of the box compared to the Gustard's - Not a bad thing, just different.  After swapping out the fuse and adding Stillpoints ERS, the sound relaxed quite a bit (maybe a bit too much?).  It likely needs more burn-in time (especially the fuse), but I couldn't help the feeling that something was missing. As soon as I switched back to *the DP1 everything just sounded "right" - More musical - Less digital.  *


 
  
 Hi and thanks again for the very interesting advice
 of course when the usb input on a dac is well done that solution is much better than an additional converter plus cable and so on ...
 I have decided for an external sub to spdif converter because i am looking for a good old dac, a multibit dac
 I hear that they usually are very dynamic and with strong sound ... not easy to find anyway. Who own them keep them.


> BTW, the DP1 does require 5V power, and even still I prefer it sonically to the MX-U8 which doesn't..... Just some food for thought


 
 How were you connecting the two ? i am preferring the AES connection but it is just a feeling
 Even if i read the recommendation of a talented digital designer about using the AES link.  Higher signal voltage and therefore better S/N ratio in general.
 I have found a cheap and nice 2 meter cable from Canare.
 Regarding difference in digital sound for me a very telling aspect is virtual soundstage rendering.
 I read that your dac is a champion at that.   For me it is the ultimate test.
 Some sharpness, harshness and hardness can be cured a little with the right cables. Cardas, that i have, are quite famous as "analogizer" for digital.
 I know that this sounds quite crazy but the right cable can help a lot.
 Like i strongly believe in long break-in ... i have discarded equipment that then sounded very good at friends house.
 In one case i had also a discussion because i wanted to buy it back ... it was difficult.
 Then digital is also very sensible to tweaks ... i am referring mostly to base for transports or mains filter for digital equipment.
 It is a long process but i also believe in 1st impression.  For instance to me this MX-U8 sounded interesting from the start and it can only get better.  I am sure of this.
 And unfortunately for me budget is a constraint.
  


> _*(To be fair I'm feeding it battery power - so it's as clean as can be). *_


 
 please ... could you elaborate this ? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  i am interested ... you have an external usb power supply based on batteries ?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 because after your words ... let's just say that i am going back to the usb dac solution to try ...  again
 i still do not know if the unit will have usb isolation, in that case no usb power will be needed
 But if it is not isolated ... i am completely sold un usb isolation ... even if it is a little tricky to perform right.
  
*So I am interested about your solution a lot indeed.*
  
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## ginetto61

blasjw said:


> They ignored by 2nd e-mail so I just sent them a 3rd with a picture of the PCB.  Let's see if that works.


 
  
 Hi i would *try to contact the manufacturer as well and tell them your story*.  Send them your *unit's SN *for them to check.
 Maybe they will be more supportive that the seller.
 Moreover i think that they would also to deal with professional resellers if they want to achieve success in business
 If it is a serious company there is also a lesson to be learned also for them, like to pay more attention to QC.
 I have the feeling that they are very motivated to enter the business.
 This unit could be a very best selling.  I know many people with old good dacs that want to keep them absolutely.
 So this kind of converter is mandatory.
 With some very marginal mods i have the feeling that this converter could be not just very good, but really really great.
 Good luck again !
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## Jamiee

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks again for the very interesting advice
> of course when the usb input on a dac is well done that solution is much better than an additional converter plus cable and so on ...
> I have decided for an external sub to spdif converter because i am looking for a good old dac, a multibit dac
> I hear that they usually are very dynamic and with strong sound ... not easy to find anyway. Who own them keep them.
> ...


 
  
 I have tried both COAX and AES connection types over the years with varying cables - some cheap, some not so cheap; and ultimately prefer AES for it's quieter background.  The differences between the two aren't significant when using a good quality cable and in the long run I could certainly be happy with either connection type (so long as PCM playback remains my main focus), but in the end I do find that AES is capable of rendering just a smidge more information.
  
 Currently I'm using a MIT Proline Digital Reference AES, and / or a MIT Magnum Digital COAX cable when paring a DDC with my dac.
 USB cable is a Light Harmonic Lightspeed Twin.
  
 As for battery power.... I have a JCAT USB card in which the 5V USB power is supplied by a JCAT Battery Power Supply (essentially a Bakoon - with modified power lead that has 4-pin molex & SATA connectors).


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *Jamiee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif  I have tried both COAX and AES connection types over the years with varying cables - some cheap, some not so cheap; and ultimately prefer AES for it's quieter background.
> The differences between the two aren't significant when using a good quality cable and in the long run I could certainly be happy with either connection type (so long as PCM playback remains my main focus), but in the end I do find that AES is capable of rendering just a smidge more information.
> Currently I'm using a MIT Proline Digital Reference AES, and / or a MIT Magnum Digital COAX cable when paring a DDC with my dac.  USB cable is a Light Harmonic Lightspeed Twin.
> As for battery power.... I have a JCAT USB card in which the 5V USB power is supplied by a JCAT Battery Power Supply (essentially a Bakoon - with modified power lead that has 4-pin molex & SATA connectors).


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot again indeed for the very valuable advice.  Impressive system you have and i understand the work needed to put it together.
 At first i was very very skeptical about sound from a pc ... but now i understand the complexity of the task but also that the outcome can be very nice indeed.
 Actually* i read comments from people with really great cd players of the past (Class A Stereophile units, very very good and very expensive) who have "migrated" to audio listening with a pc and do not regret the move.   This to me is the best endorsement possible for pc audio.  Good as good old TOTL cd players (my collection is most if not all on cds).*
 With the interesting advantage of* having all the music stored in handy NAS (my first goal indeed) like a modern juke-box *




 I like batteries a lot for they provide absolute independency from the electrical grid.   Sometimes i have the feeling that they even suck out noise from the chain, just to say how beneficial can be.
 And while analog is not for me that sensitive, digital is extremely sensitive to noise in the PS, especially RFI can impact clock stability.
 Thanks a lot again for your very precious advice.
 Kindest regards,  gino


----------



## Jamiee

Digital audio playback is easy......  Top notch digital audio playback is anything but!


----------



## ginetto61

jamiee said:


> Digital audio playback is easy......  *Top notch digital audio playback is anything but! *


 
  
 Well this tells me that digital audio has not been fully understood
 Just look all the discussions still going on about filters, jitter, clock ... multibit vs. sigma delta.
 It is still a mess. So it is at least normal that top notch performance are very difficult to be achieved
 Only few know really what to do.
 But the sound can be tolerable in many cases.  Not perfect but bearable ...
 And with digital is already a success.
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

ginetto61 said:


> Well this tells me that digital audio has not been fully understood
> Just look all the discussions still going on about filters, jitter, clock ... multibit vs. sigma delta.
> It is still a mess. So it is at least normal that top notch performance are very difficult to be achieved
> Only few know really what to do.
> ...


 

 Perhaps there is confusion, but we need to be careful as we are discussing subjective differences, the limitations skills in describing differences, and in some cases measurement device detected differences which does not always mean audible differences. In medical and psychological research there is the concept of effect size, meaning how much of a difference is made with a therapy. The effect size can also be small and measureable, hence an effect, but of no practical significance, in other words it won't actually do anything of value. Just because people talk about how big an effect jitter or interface choices makes, in essence they are talking about effect size. MOST people will never do proper blind listening tests so any subjective effects they hear can just as easily be explained by expectation bias. When people quote a machine measuring an effect how do we know that is actually audible?
  
 What I'm trying to say is that while subject experience and language may make all of these differences sound large and of practical effect I'll bet the often tiny effect size on jitter or whatever is being discussed is of no practical effect anyway.


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> Perhaps there is confusion, but we need to be careful as we are discussing subjective differences, the limitations skills in describing differences, and in some cases measurement device detected differences which does not always mean audible differences. In medical and psychological research there is the concept of effect size, meaning how much of a difference is made with a therapy.
> The effect size can also be small and measureable, hence an effect, but of no practical significance, in other words it won't actually do anything of value. Just because people talk about how big an effect jitter or interface choices makes, in essence they are talking about effect size.
> MOST people will never do proper blind listening tests so any subjective effects they hear can just as easily be explained by expectation bias.
> When people quote a machine measuring an effect how do we know that is actually audible?
> What I'm trying to say is that while subject experience and language may make all of these differences sound large and of practical effect I'll bet the often tiny effect size on jitter or whatever is being discussed is of no practical effect anyway.


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice.
 You are very very right.  The subjectivity of some judgments can be deceiving and misleading.
 But when more people state something similar ... i feel there is something true.  I am referring for instance at the bland sound of sigma-delta dac chip compared to multibit.
 There must be something of real.   This is why for some time i have been hunting for a multibit dac. Then i settled for what i think is a decent sigma-delta.
 And i will try to act on the other element of the chain hoping to find a good compromise.
 there are two values not easy to measure:
 1)  sound quality/price ratio
 2)  price at which the let's say 90% of the max obtainable sound quality can be achieved. 
 For instance two usb to aes converters .... one is 1/10 the price of the best one. Will it be also the 1/10 in terms of sound quality ?
 i do not think so.  With maybe smaller and not fundamental mods it can be 70 or even 80% of the best.  And for me would be enough.
 It is very complex. But if many people say that something is really excellent i think it will be very good indeed.
 Usually it is also expensive, but not always.
 Thanks again,  gino


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## bixby

I know this thread has detoured a bit into a modding one, but I hope I can ask some of the folks who own the U12 or Melodious if they think it might be beneficial when fronting a Matrix X-sabre dac?
  
 My current setup has a power leg less USB cable direct from mac mini to usb input on the Matrix.  Sound is best with this bespoke USB cable with no power.  I tried a Schiit Wyrd with wireworld usb to computer and same powerless usb cable going into the X-sabre.  Not as good as the first scenario with direct powerless usb.
  
 I also tried an Audiophileo 2 with wireworld usb and very good spdif coax to the x-sabre.  I could not reliably detect any preference compared to the regular usb powered input on the x-sabre.
  
 Given these observations, would anyone have any other or similar experience that might highlight the u12 as a possible sound quality improvement with the Matrix?


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## stuartmc

The Tanly Audio DDC had been burned in for a solid 72 hours. Some 3M 5100S emi shielding applied mostly to the power supply section and a higher grade silver fuse installed.




In the last picture, you can see where I applied the 3M material to the Crystek crystals and all of the IC's on the board. After a listening session, I had to go back and remove nearly all of this and reapply it to the cabinet walls and lid. It sucked too much life out of the music. The wonderful "live" energy had been greatly diminished by this application. Interestingly, this had not been the case with the U12. I could go nuts with the 3M stuff and it didn't change the dynamics or tonality... Just a blacker background and greater image separation. I suspect that the Tanly's greater resolving powers made the changes more noticeable. I liked the results of just directly shielding the power supply, so I left it at that.

My listening impressions at this point are already very clear. The Tanly is the real deal. It easily bests the U12 in every audible parameter-- Deeper, controlled and more authoritative bass; greater micro and macro dynamics yielding a much more "live" energy to every recording; fantastic fine detail retrieval with grain free, extended treble, again yielding more of that "you're there" realism; a more spacious soundstage, with more focused and well delineated images with blacker more silent space between them. Yep, smokes the U12 in every way.

Let's put this in proper perspective. At three times the price with a completely separated, regulated and filtered power supply, Crysteks and an interesting data buffering scheme, it certainly should sound better. I'm very happy that in reality it does. Too often I'm disappointed by how little the "on paper" stuff translates into real audible improvements. Fortunately the Tanly delivers on the promise. I'm keeping it.


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## stuartmc

I thought it might be helpful to show my current bedside setup. I have a Samsung Tab S as my source streaming Tidal, or alternatively using The Android program UAPP to play flac and DSD files off the internal micro SD card. I have the Tanly feeding the Gustard X12 via I2S and the X12 to the Gustard H10 via balanced XLR cables. Listening is through my highly modified Hifiman HE560 cans.


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## ginetto61

bixby said:


> I know this thread has detoured a bit into a modding one, but I hope I can ask some of the folks who own the U12 or Melodious if they think it might be beneficial when fronting a Matrix X-sabre dac?


 
 Hi very difficult question.  I can only say that i have both and i think the Melodious is better.  I should keep just one i would keep the Melodious, more expensive.
 IMHO they have both margins of improvements, especially regarding mains filtering.


> My current setup has *a power leg less USB cable *direct from mac mini to usb input on the Matrix. Sound is best with this bespoke USB cable with no power.


 
  
 Could you tell me a little more about this cable ? have you bought it or made it yourself ?
 I see that a usb cable has: screen, data + and - , Vcc and ground.    In your cable only the data wires are connected or also the screen ? 
 Unfortunately many usb dacs still rely on power from the pc to work.  While even my cat knows how dirty is pc power.
 With some dirty and other very very dirty ... and also weak in terms of availbale current.
 This is quite bizzarre for me. It should be one of the main requirements when designig a usb interface.
  


> I tried a Schiit Wyrd with wireworld usb to computer and same powerless usb cable going into the X-sabre. Not as good as the first scenario with direct powerless usb.
> I also tried an Audiophileo 2 with wireworld usb and very good spdif coax to the x-sabre. I could not reliably detect any preference compared to the regular usb powered input on the x-sabre.
> Given these observations, would anyone have any other or similar experience that might highlight the u12 as a possible sound quality improvement with the Matrix?


 
  
 as i said you should try and listen.   If you test the U12 you should use also a usb power supply (like the Wyrd) because the unit does not provide usb isolation by itself ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 and i would use the AES/EBU out from the U12. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It could be that the DD conversion of the U12 is better than the one inside the X-sabre.   But you will never know unless you try.
 With the right recordings and a decent system you should be able to hear some differences and then the choice is up to you.
 Good luck !
 Bye,  gino


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## ginetto61

stuartmc said:


> The *Tanly Audio *DDC had been burned in for a solid 72 hours. Some 3M 5100S emi shielding applied mostly to the power supply section and a higher grade silver fuse installed...  My listening impressions at this point are already very clear. *The Tanly is the real deal. It easily bests the U12 in every audible parameter*-- Deeper, controlled and more authoritative bass; greater micro and macro dynamics yielding a much more "live" energy to every recording; fantastic fine detail retrieval with grain free, extended treble, again yielding more of that "you're there" realism;* a more spacious soundstage*, with more focused and well delineated images with blacker more silent space between them. *Yep, smokes the U12 in every way*... Let's put this in proper perspective. At three times the price with a completely separated, regulated and filtered power supply, Crysteks and an interesting data buffering scheme, it certainly should sound better. I'm very happy that in reality it does. Too often I'm disappointed by how little the "on paper" stuff translates into real audible improvements. Fortunately the Tanly delivers on the promise. I'm keeping it.


 
  
 Hi thanks a lot for the very interesting review.  It looks like a very good designed and built unit.
 Do they have a website ?  where did you buy it from ?
 which usb and power cable are you using ?  which digital connection to the dac ?
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## bixby

ginetto61 said:


> Hi very difficult question.  I can only say that i have both and i think the Melodious is better.  I should keep just one i would keep the Melodious, more expensive.
> IMHO they have both margins of improvements, especially regarding mains filtering.
> 
> Could you tell me a little more about this cable ? have you bought it or made it yourself ?
> ...


 
 Thanks for your input.
  
 Regarding the USB cable, yes eliminating the power leg has resulted in a big improvement in sound.  Many XMOS based input stages do not require the USB power to be recognized and function perfectly.  To test my dac, I took a cheap USB cable and carefully opened it up (cut the outer insulation) and cut and isolated the power leg (taped).  Tried it out and it worked.
  
 Then a friend, who is a diy wizard started making a bespoke USB cable without the power leg.  He and several of my other friends use them and they sound great.  So I bought one of his, not cheap but not crazy either and he knows how to build it to meet USB specs regarding impedance not just slap some fancy wire onto some connectors and call it a day.  The negative line and data lines are made up with regular connectors and he uses a good geometry to keep inductance low.  When you think about it, you kill a bunch of the noise on the power leg and most of what is left is on the negative, with maybe some modulating along with the data lines.  Pretty clean though overall.  
  
 To me I do not see the point in translating USB to SPDIF when you already have a decent USB receiver, good dac clock and async operation.  But maybe I am missing something.  I know the big improvements I heard with my Halide and Audiophileo bridges was due the the fact I had to use USB to get the signal form the computer and the fact that many lower cost and earlier USB implementations on dac were pretty lousy sounding.  And in the case of dacs without USB, the better clock in the Audiophileo did wonders for my Blue Circle dac.
  
 I think I will hold off for now.  Another several hundred $ outlay may not improve things and I cannot afford to lose money on an audition.  Then again, maybe someone here will take the hit and try it with the Matrix.  
  
 I may have an opportunity to see how well an uber priced bridge does on a really expensive dac this weekend when I may get to hear the Hydra Z on the Rowland dac.
  
 cheers


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *bixby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Thanks for your input.
> *Regarding the USB cable*, yes eliminating the power leg has resulted in a big improvement in sound.  Many XMOS based input stages do not require the USB power to be recognized and function perfectly. To test my dac, *I took a cheap USB cable and carefully opened it up (cut the outer insulation) and cut and isolated the power leg (taped).  *Tried it out and it worked....
> cheers


 
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very kind reply.  And sorry but i am slow to catch up ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 This is a usb cable open
  

  
  
  
_*Have you left intact only the data + and - wires and cut everything else (i.e. screen, Vcc +5V and Ground) ?*_
  
 Because it is very important for me to understand this without any doubt.
 Leaving only the data wires is the only way to achieve that *blessed complete galvanic isolation of the dac from the "dirty pc" *i guess.
 ( it is dirty but i love it ... it is so handy ... i can do everything with it ... i love the pc for this )
 I did this as an experiment with a 2000 USD usb cable (joke 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) with a cheap cable and one of my dacs (the Cambridge Audio Dacmagic) actually worked perfectly the same
 This is how all the usb dacs with embedded power supply should work (and they should also provide a decent data only usb cable).
 I guess that in these dacs the USB screen, Vcc +5V and Ground are disconnected at the panel usb socket level
 Thanks a lot again for your very kind and helpful advice
 Kind regards,  gino


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## bixby

Hi Gino:
  
 A picture is worth a thousand words, I suppose.
  
 As you see the black plastic has been cut carefully all the way around along with the Braid and foil (if yours has it).  I call this the shield and for our test purposes it does not matter if it is gone.  I then cut the red wire ONLY and taped the remaining ends so it would not short against the shield.
  
 We want the ground (black wire usually, not to be confused with the Braid) to be intact.  When you have one made, I suppose you also get the benefit of having the braid intact all the way to screen RFI.
  
 The big question is how does it sound?
  
 cheers
  
 Click on pic to see more closely


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## ginetto61

bixby said:


> Hi Gino:
> A picture is worth a thousand words, I suppose.
> As you see the black plastic has been cut carefully all the way around along with the Braid and foil (if yours has it).  I call this the shield and for our test purposes it does not matter if it is gone.
> I then cut the red wire ONLY and taped the remaining ends so it would not short against the shield.
> _*We want the ground (black wire usually, not to be confused with the Braid) to be intact.  *_


 
  
 Hi and thanks again, but sorry in this way you will not have galvanic separation with the pc.
  
*I can assure you that i left only the two data wires (white and green) connected and cut everything else (screen, black and red wires) *
*and the Cambridge Audio was still working perfectly.*
  
 Clearly it has been designed very well and with some mods it could sound even better.  
 it is important to cut any electrical connection with the pc because there can be noise in the pc ground
 Then of course the ground and the +5V must be provided to the dac, if it needs them to work, from an external source (PS).
 But i see now that the screen is supposed not to be connected at the usb device ... so i think it could be kept
  

  
  
 Instead i bought this isolator here ... this should provide galvanic isolation i hope. Not yet received
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Low-noise-USB-Isolator-short-circuit-protection-ADUM4160-Hifi-JTAG-isolation-/111674832962?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1a0056b842
  



> When you have one made, I suppose you also get the benefit of having the braid intact all the way to screen RFI.
> The big question is how does it sound?
> cheers
> Click on pic to see more closely


 
  
 i think that electrical isolation from the pc is very good indeed.  All the very best dacs and interfaces provide that.
 These units can work with a usb data only cable. And they sound really good.
 The next frontier anyway is usb signal regeneration. Like a signal booster that increase i guess the S/N ratio of the usb signal and makes the life easier for the usb dac (any i read).
 But now i plan to try some isolation solution with also the cables only for data.
 Then maybe the regeneration.  But i hope to get a decent sound without it. I do not have a playback system enough resolving for very fine details.
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


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## stuartmc

ginetto61 said:


> Hi thanks a lot for the very interesting review.  It looks like a very good designed and built unit.
> Do they have a website ?  where did you buy it from ?
> which usb and power cable are you using ?  which digital connection to the dac ?
> Thanks again,  gino


 
 I made the contact through Taobao. Tanly Audio has a page there.  I set up an account on Taobao and was able to contact the manufacturer through its email relay.  I am a fan of the I2S interface and I have used it exclusively after testing the various connections between the U12 and X12 DAC and finding it to sound best in my system.  These units use the HDMI connector for I2S, so I was pleased to see that the Tanly unit was similarly equipped.   The Melodious DDC uses a different I2S connector, so I was not as interested in acquiring one. I could not make as clear comparisons with the Melodious because I would have to use the coaxial or aes/ebu connection with my DAC and to me, that would be like comparing apples to oranges.  Mind you, I was intending this little foray into DDC's for review purposes.  
  
 My power cables of choice are the Analysis-Plus Power Ovals.  I had six different brands accumulated in my audio closet and I once again found the Analysis-Plus cords to work best in my system.  I'm using them on the DAC and headphone amp as well.  For the USB cable, I settled on the Japanese Oyaide Neo D+ Class S.  It's very affordable, great materials and build quality, and most importantly, sounds great.


----------



## blasjw

Sorry to interject but, I thought I should give an update on my MX-U8 issue.  Just wanted to let everyone know that I did get an RMA from Shenzhenaudio so I will be sending it back for replacement.


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## auvgeek

blasjw said:


> Sorry to interject but, I thought I should give an update on my MX-U8 issue.  Just wanted to let everyone know that I did get an RMA from Shenzhenaudio so I will be sending it back for replacement.


 

 I assume they'll cover shipping both directions?


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## blasjw

auvgeek said:


> I assume they'll cover shipping both directions?


 

 I hope so.


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## ginetto61

stuartmc said:


> I made the contact through *Taobao*. Tanly Audio has a page there.  I set up an account on Taobao and was able to contact the manufacturer through its email relay.


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the information.  I see the web site is in Chinese. I will try google translation but it will be tricky.
    
 Quote:


> I am a fan of the I2S interface and I have used it exclusively after testing the various connections between the U12 and X12 DAC and finding it to sound best in my system.
> These units use the HDMI connector for I2S, so I was pleased to see that the Tanly unit was similarly equipped.
> The Melodious DDC uses a different I2S connector, so I was not as interested in acquiring one.
> I could not make as clear comparisons with the Melodious because I would have to use the coaxial or aes/ebu connection with my DAC and to me, that would be like comparing apples to oranges.
> Mind you, I was intending this little foray into DDC's for review purposes.


 
  
 I am mostly interested in AES connection because my best dacs have that kind of option. 

  But i am rievaluating the usb dac option also. I have an Hegel HD10 using this port also and i will be testing some usb isolation solutions soon, hoping to extract some more details from sound.    
  


> My power cables of choice are the Analysis-Plus Power Ovals.  I had six different brands accumulated in my audio closet and I once again found the Analysis-Plus cords to work best in my system.
> I'm using them on the DAC and headphone amp as well.  For the USB cable, I settled on the Japanese Oyaide Neo D+ Class S.  It's very affordable, great materials and build quality, and most importantly, sounds great.


 
  
 Regarding power cables i believe that can make a big difference especially with some power supplies.  I see the power cables as filter and in particular, for low consumption and digital equipment, i think that the capacitance is what matters.
 Problem is to find the electrical characteristics of various cable.  But i would like to make a test.  One high end very good cable and one cheap cable but with additional passive components in order to match the L and C of the high end cable and then listen for any difference.
 What i mean is that in the end i see the cables like a filter distributed along the cable length,  But in the end what matters are the total L and C values,
 And cable with similar values should sound quite similar.  But i am not able to perform this evaluation unfortunately. 
 Thanks again,  gino


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## stuartmc

Gino, I have always been mystified by the effects of power cords. It was one of those things that I REALLY didn't want to have a significant effect on sound. I don't know about the L and C of the Analysis-Plus cords, but I'm pretty sure they have that info in their white paper. They are one of the few cable companies that are highly technical, computer modeling and testing everything they make. All of their design people have advanced degrees in engineering or physics. Thier company motto is "make me prove it."


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## ginetto61

stuartmc said:


> Gino, I have always been mystified by the effects of power cords. It was one of those things that I REALLY didn't want to have a significant effect on sound. I don't know about the L and C of the Analysis-Plus cords, but I'm pretty sure they have that info in their white paper. They are one of the few cable companies that are highly technical, computer modeling and testing everything they make. All of their design people have advanced degrees in engineering or physics. Thier company motto is "make me prove it."


 
  
 Hi and thanks again for the valuable advice.  I have some feelings:
 1)   usually power cables have bigger effects on digital equipment
  
 2)   some equipment, i.e. those that have a better designed power supply, are less sensitive to a cable swap than other that are extremely sensitive.  For instance when i see power supplies in dacs without a mains filter at the input and a toroidal transformer i am a little puzzled.  A toroidal let everything thorugh.  All noise passes to the circuits.  To see instead a well realized power supply look at the Schiit Audio dacs, for instance.  Great power supply and not that complicated. Just well designed and realized and i think it is one reason of their very good sound.
  
 3)   i wonder if the same effects of a high end power cable could be obtained with a carefully matched combination of cheap shielded power cable plus a rightly selected mains filter.  For me high capacitance is key.  It tends to block the RF/HF noise that is almost always in the mains and it is so detrimental for digital circuits sound.  For instance RF is often the cause of what is called digital haze in the sound from a dac. A high capacitane power cord can do a lot to block RF noise at the cable. Of course same effect can be obtained with a filter.
  
 So  i am actually looking for a mains cord with high capacitance but *it is difficult to find specs for a power cord*.
 I could get maybe high capacitance with a very long cable i guess.
 I am planning to make a 10 meters power cord and put it on my dac.   And i wonder if i could do even without a shield.  For me the only entry possible for noise is the mains input. 
 In my city we have had a big industrial crisis.  You know that i have never heard so beautiful sound from my cd player like after they have shutdown some big factories in the aerea ?  sorry for the workers of course.
*Digital is so sensitive to power quality that is unbelievable ... analog  much less.*
  
 Thanks a lot again.  gino


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## abartels

Hi Guys,
  
 I found this interesting site, they have the *WORLDS FIRST HIGH-SPEED USB ISOLATOR*
  
 http://intona.eu/en/products
  
 Not cheap, but maybe a very nice add-on for us! 
  
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


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## Sonic Defender

stuartmc said:


> Gino, I have always been mystified by the effects of power cords. It was one of those things that I REALLY didn't want to have a significant effect on sound. I don't know about the L and C of the Analysis-Plus cords, but I'm pretty sure they have that info in their white paper. They are one of the few cable companies that are highly technical, computer modeling and testing everything they make. All of their design people have advanced degrees in engineering or physics. Thier company motto is "make me prove it."


 

 Then they need some double blind, multiple trial testing don't they? I'm sure machines can measure a difference, but how do we know we can actually hear it? I'm not a full-on objective only person, I believe in the subjective experience, but blind listening test satisfy both tests so that the subjective and objective are measured at the same time. It is telling in my mind that none of these companies that really aught to know how to set up legitimate testing procedures just keep showing us machine measurements, or they rely on sighted listening testimonials. I'm not saying these things can't make a difference, I'm just saying we need to admit that until proper unbiased testing is conducted we can't be confident in the results.


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## stuartmc

sonic defender said:


> Then they need some double blind, multiple trial testing don't they? I'm sure machines can measure a difference, but how do we know we can actually hear it? I'm not a full-on objective only person, I believe in the subjective experience, but blind listening test satisfy both tests so that the subjective and objective are measured at the same time. It is telling in my mind that none of these companies that really aught to know how to set up legitimate testing procedures just keep showing us machine measurements, or they rely on sighted listening testimonials. I'm not saying these things can't make a difference, I'm just saying we need to admit that until proper unbiased testing is conducted we can't be confident in the results.


 
 I don't disagree with your assessment at all.  I'm just pointing out that this company at least shows how their products measure and are different from others with some pretty serious testing apparatus and regimens.  There are way too many snake oil salesman in the cable business who do nothing of the sort and have practically zero engineering experience. Of course, as you point out, how this translates into real world system sound is certainly up for debate.   My personal, highly subjective opinion, is that their designs do sound noticeably better with my gear.  I was introduced to Analysis-Plus about 20 years ago when I wrote for Positive-Feedback magazine.  At that time, I was highly skeptical of this newcomer and had  way too many ho-hum cable brands lying around my listening room.  The Analysis-Plus boys won me over by first letting me listen to samples of all their products without very much communication between us and then, after I was sufficiently impressed, they took the time to school me on the engineering aspects of their products and why they believe those aspects improve the sound.  That order of things greatly impressed me.


----------



## Jamiee

blasjw said:


> Sorry to interject but, I thought I should give an update on my MX-U8 issue.  Just wanted to let everyone know that I did get an RMA from Shenzhenaudio so I will be sending it back for replacement.


 

 Excellent news, glad to hear it and good on Shenzhenaudio for doing the right thing    **thumbs up**


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## Sonic Defender

stuartmc said:


> I don't disagree with your assessment at all.  I'm just pointing out that this company at least shows how their products measure and are different from others with some pretty serious testing apparatus and regimens.  There are way too many snake oil salesman in the cable business who do nothing of the sort and have practically zero engineering experience. Of course, as you point out, how this translates into real world system sound is certainly up for debate.   My personal, highly subjective opinion, is that their designs do sound noticeably better with my gear.  I was introduced to Analysis-Plus about 20 years ago when I wrote for Positive-Feedback magazine.  At that time, I was highly skeptical of this newcomer and had  way too many ho-hum cable brands lying around my listening room.  The Analysis-Plus boys won me over by first letting me listen to samples of all their products without very much communication between us and then, after I was sufficiently impressed, they took the time to school me on the engineering aspects of their products and why they believe those aspects improve the sound.  That order of things greatly impressed me.


 

 Thanks for the balanced and thoughtful reply rather than a knee-jerk reply. I am always advocating for blind testing here, not because I'm an ass who wants to take the fun out of the hobby, but deep inside I really want to believe! Who wouldn't want to add that final element to their system at relatively affordable prices? I sure would all day long. I spent $500 on a custom cable for my headphones due to convenience as opposed to sound quality needs. To this day despite loving the cable I will never say it sounds better as I haven't been able to test it in anyway that would allow me to make that claim. I would love to give Norne Audio another glowing review based on sound quality, but I just can't do that no matter how much I want to. No valid testing on my part, no claim about sound.


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## Sonic Defender

So a question, my MX-U8 has arrived. I simply install the drivers and in windows make them my default while adjusting the bit depth and sample rate correct? JRiver I assume will need to be changed to also use this driver? Any tips would be appreciated so that tonight I can enjoy when I get home from work.


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## Sonic Defender

The U8 is working like a charm, not at all difficult to get going. It is a pain to do a/b testing, plus sighted testing is useless anyway. I'm just curious if anybody has any technical information on why an AES/EBU out to the DAC will sound better? Why exactly is this the case? I know everybody (well almost everybody) reports the converter route as sounding better, so I'm not looking for subjective opinion, just hard technical information that explains why an AES out is better?


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## m0reilly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES3
 i would think the i2s would be the all around choice (i.e., everything plus dsd playback). for me, at first, for non-dsd, it seemed the aes may have sounded more robust, but upon further listening, the i2s appears to capture the best of both the usb converter and dac.


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## Sonic Defender

m0reilly said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES3
> i would think the i2s would be the all around choice (i.e., everything plus dsd playback). for me, at first, for non-dsd, it seemed the aes may have sounded more robust, but upon further listening, the i2s appears to capture the best of both the usb converter and dac.


 

 Thanks, I'll poke about the article a little.
  
 update:
 Just looked, I had read that, but it doesn't offer even a glimmer as to why an AES out would be better than USB. Other reading recently suggests that AES has no advantage at all over USB unless there is a clocking issue so I wonder why we all assume that AES sounds better? Does anybody have anything concrete on the subject?


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## m0reilly

at the time of the initial aes spec, the latest usb iterations/present hardware offerings were not available. some gear (pro audio/consumer options ) have the aes option, and i think gustard included the connection for those wanting that option.


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## kiertijai

_*i would think the i2s would be the all around choice (i.e., everything plus dsd playback). for me, at first, for non-dsd, it seemed the aes may have sounded more robust, but upon further listening, the i2s appears to capture the best of both the usb converter and dac.*_
  
_*   *_ Sorry I'm new here. I would like to ask one question.
     I  am interested in this Melodious MX U8 to play DSD.  If I'm correct DSD has to go through I2S to another DAC.
     I have Weiss DAC202 which only has coaxial, optical and AES but no I2S
     Are there any I2S coaxial adapter? or any other way to connect this MX U8 to Weiss DAC202 to playback DSD


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## korn-fi

kiertijai said:


> _*i would think the i2s would be the all around choice (i.e., everything plus dsd playback). for me, at first, for non-dsd, it seemed the aes may have sounded more robust, but upon further listening, the i2s appears to capture the best of both the usb converter and dac.*_
> 
> _*   *_ Sorry I'm new here. I would like to ask one question.
> I  am interested in this Melodious MX U8 to play DSD.  If I'm correct DSD has to go through I2S to another DAC.
> ...


 
 Does the DAC202 support coaxial DOP ? Dese the MX u8 support DOP output through coaxial or AES ? you need a usb interface supports DOP over spdif output.


----------



## MINORISUKE

kiertijai said:


> _*i would think the i2s would be the all around choice (i.e., everything plus dsd playback). for me, at first, for non-dsd, it seemed the aes may have sounded more robust, but upon further listening, the i2s appears to capture the best of both the usb converter and dac.*_
> 
> _*   *_ Sorry I'm new here. I would like to ask one question.
> I  am interested in this Melodious MX U8 to play DSD.  If I'm correct DSD has to go through I2S to another DAC.
> ...


 
 I do not think it is a good idea to post the same contents in more than one thread.  I gave my commend in MX-U8 thread.


----------



## MINORISUKE

korn-fi said:


> .....
> Dese the MX u8 support DOP output through coaxial or AES ?
> .....


 
 NO.
 As an owner of MX-U8, I confirm there is no DoP output from any of the output connectors of MX-U8.
 Even if you input DoP (ex. forcing DoP output in JRMC20), the output signal from RJ45 is DSD native.


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> The U8 is working like a charm, not at all difficult to get going. It is a pain to do a/b testing, plus sighted testing is useless anyway. I'm just curious if anybody has any technical information on why an AES/EBU out to the DAC will sound better? Why exactly is this the case? I know everybody (well almost everybody) reports the converter route as sounding better, so I'm not looking for subjective opinion, just hard technical information that explains why an AES out is better?


 
  
 Hi i have had the same feeling myself.
 You can find the specs here 
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF
 I read about two things ... 
 1)   being the AES signal stronger in voltage the S/N ratio is high for AES than for spdif
 2)   the impedance matched is better with AES being a real 110 ohm
 then there is the balanced thing that is also important. The fact that AES is recommended over Spdif for long cables must be also mean something. 
 I find the sound more relaxed, less noisy while keeping all the detail.  And this is also true with the U10. 
 I am using it for sure.  
  
 however ... 
 Hi ... i have just read a criticism about USB links like that the quality of USB signals tend to degrade very easily along the cable.
 USB is not that Godsend that i believed at all.  It should be preferable to keep usb links as short as possible and then go with AES to the dac, in those cases when you cannot place the usb dac close to the pc of course.
 Some USB regenerators are appearing on the market and said to be very effective.  
 And this supports the idea that USB can degrade very easily. 
  
http://uptoneaudio.com/products/usb-regen


----------



## ginetto61

sorry double posting ..


----------



## m0reilly

i wold vote against any usb 'boosting'. i believe there is a bit too much re over subjective granularity placed on what 'could' affect your enjoyment of  audio re the devices merited in this thread.


----------



## ginetto61

m0reilly said:


> i wold vote against any usb 'boosting'. i believe there is a bit too much re over subjective granularity placed on what 'could' affect your enjoyment of  audio re the devices merited in this thread.


 
 Hi and i agree absolutely 
 However i am about to evaluate a *PCIe to usb adapter card *to put in the PC that should provide a stronger, more stable and cleaner usb output (hopefully).
 I bought this one here ... very cheap ... with a Nec chip on board as recommended to me by someone ...
  
*http://www.ebay.com/itm/PCI-PCI-E-Express-to-USB3-0-USB2-0-USB1-1-2-port-NEC-chipset-Hub-Card-MINI-PC-BC-/361128303368?ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:IT:3160*
  

  
  
 But i agree. I intend to use only a usb power isolator to clean the usb power lines.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

If it was simpler, I would simply a/b test blind with help to determine if there is any audible difference. But as you know, in order to test against USB I would need to not just switch cables, but also go into control panel, change the default device, and do the same in JRiver. Even with help it seems like this would take a few minutes to do and it would slow down the testing process quite a bit, and with auditory memory being somewhat unreliable anyway I worry the delays would make the testing fairly unreliable anyway.


----------



## ginetto61

I would like to add just one another thing.  *Using a usb power isolator in case of not isolated usb dac pays.*
*And also the quality of PS used pays.*  
 Of course much more with usb dacs relying only on usb power to work.
 I am testing for instance a nice *Hegel HD10 dac* that does need power in the usb input to work, sadly ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 flaw in the design for me.
 Presently i am using a cheap but nice sounding usb dac/headphone amp from Breeze Audio *to find the best sounding combination of power supply, isolator and usb cables.*

 Once i have got the best sound i will use the same elements for the dac above mentioned that should be superior, hopefully. 
 Usually very good sound sounds relaxed but still providing a great detail
 and of course does not induce fatigue just desire to go on with the listening.  
 And HPs are very useful in this process.  Being very transparent they let everything through
 and when the sound is bad this is very evident.


----------



## abartels

abartels said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I found this interesting site, they have the *WORLDS FIRST HIGH-SPEED USB ISOLATOR*
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 No reaction?????
  
 This one is THE ONLY ONE (till so far) which would work with highres music, so all above 96kHz.


----------



## Sonic Defender

It's quiet around here lately, for myself, I wonder how much of these tweak devices are ultimately just fun distractions that we enjoy working into our rigs? I must admit, I read posts about how awesome the MX-U8 can make things and frankly even with a decent Digiflex AES cable I can't hear a difference.


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> It's quiet around here lately, for myself, I wonder how much of these tweak devices are ultimately just fun distractions that we enjoy working into our rigs? ...


 
 Hi i think that in the *case of the Gustard U12 USB Interface*, as its usb input is not isolated, some kind of isolation device is needed.
 From what i have learned up to now i would focus only on power isolation from the pc of the usb port on the U12 and stop.
 I have read that with longer usb cables packets loss is possible. Then that ferrite beads placed along the usb cable can distort the signal.
 So if i had to use the U12 (in the meantime i have bought also MX-U8 that overall looks like a better device and has isolated usb port) i would:
 1)   keep the usb cable as short as possible, best quality without ferrite beads
 2)   use a usb power isolation device without any chip on the signal path, just a physical disconnection of screen, 5VDC and ground and let through only the data wires providing external clean 5VDC.
 3)   try a pci-e to usb card on the pc in order to try to get a better usb signal out of the pc.
 Instead with MX-U8 point 2) is needless, of course.
 I thought usb signal transmission were less challenging ... instead it is difficult to perform rightly.
 Thanks and regards,  gino


----------



## SodaBoy

Quote:


abartels said:


> No reaction?????
> 
> This one is THE ONLY ONE (till so far) which would work with highres music, so all above 96kHz.


 
 I am definitely interested, but September is pretty far away. The price sounds OK so long as it delivers considering I have seen many other garbage isolators in the past that were not much cheaper.


----------



## Vic57

I successfully used self-made chokes on ferrite rings for a filtration of the USB supply voltage.
 Not the entire cable, as only two supply conductor is wound 5-7 turns per ring in the opposite direction ...


----------



## pakultra

Hi everyone, I've just finished building my ultra-low noise power supply based on the 0.8uV DIYinHK kit and I'd like to share what I've found about this kit.
  
 First, some photos of the build:
  

  
  


  
  
 Since I need 1.6A supply for my NAD D1050 dac, I paralleled the two individual 5V outputs with some changes to the original circuit. Theoretically, paralleling the regulators will reduce the noise even further, to 0.57uV in my case. However, there is no way I can measure it with my humble multimeter. What I do know is that right now, it's working perfectly with my DAC. Actual output voltage: 5.06V. Current consumption is very steady at 1.4A, exactly 0.7A measured from each output, what a perfect balance of load! I am amazed at the performance of these nice LT3042 regulators.
  
 After I put my new power supply into service, my wife immediately noticed improvement in the sound. She said that the sound was SWEETER, to which I fully agreed. Previously I always start to feel a little fatigue after listening to my system for more than one hour, now that fatigue is all gone. 
  
 I am now very happy with the combination of my power supply, my dac and my U12, although I did encounter quite a few issues while building the power supply:
  
 1) Although DIYinHK claims that this kit is capable of supplying 1A x 2, I believe that the original design is only good for a maximum of 500mA x 2. The Murata hybrid EMI filters supplied in the kit are rated at 500mA only. In my initial tests, they got VERY hot at 500mA. Once the current went above 500mA, the filters got saturated and there were a huge voltage drop once the chokes were saturated. As a result, the output voltage plummeted to 3.7v from 5v upon saturation. This alone won't be too much of a problem if you only need 3.3V. The board can still output a steady 3.3v if you set its voltage jumper to 3.3v. But since I need 5V, the voltage drop was totally unacceptable to me. Eventually, I had to bypass the two nice-looking but useless filters to get a steady 5V output;
  
 2) The default heatsinks that come with the DIYinHK are too small for current output above 500mA. The transistors got burning hot when more current was drawn. I was so alarmed at this that I checked again on the DIYinHK website to see what could be wrong. This time, I noticed DIYinHK's warning to use larger heatsinks or a fan for cooling if more than 500 mA current is needed. To make matters worse, the PCB was specifically designed to allow only a small heatsink to be installed. There are capacitors right beside the transistors, leaving no room for larger heatsinks. Luckily, I've already replaced most of the WIMA film capacitors with tiny 22 uf surface-mounted Murata ceramic capacitors, so that I have space to mount larger heatsinks above my capacitors. This tames the heat nicely, although the board doesn't look as nice and neat as before;
  
 3) Regarding the choice of transformers, I originally ordered a R-core but decided to try an EI core first because of their alleged superiority in isolating high frequency noises. My EI-core does work. It has become particularly important after I had to bypass the Murata EMI filters,  but it does get hot and it HUMs when under full load. The humming is audible within a 2-foot range of the transformer. I haven't decided if I should replace the EI core with my R-core to get rid of the humming. But for now, I have learnt to use the humming as a cue to let me know whether the power supply is working under full load of not. 
  
 I originally was thinking about building the same linear power supply for my Gustard U12 too, but after I modded my U12 to be fully isolated from USB power, it has become so quite that I don't think an external power supply is needed any more. Now, my U12 and NAD D1050 powered by 0.57uV hand-made power suppy work perfectly. I hear pure, relaxed, sweet and musical sound. This further confirms that an external power supply for U12 is unnecessary, though doable.
  
 Regarding the use of USB isolators, I don't think they will be good for U12 once it has already been modded and isolated from USB power. External isolators can introduce jitter and distortion. I haven't tried them but I am not motivated to try them either, at least not until I am otherwise convinced.
  
 Hope my little report helps.
  
 Now, time to enjoy music!
 Cheers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
  
 pakultra


----------



## stuartmc

sonic defender said:


> If it was simpler, I would simply a/b test blind with help to determine if there is any audible difference. But as you know, in order to test against USB I would need to not just switch cables, but also go into control panel, change the default device, and do the same in JRiver. Even with help it seems like this would take a few minutes to do and it would slow down the testing process quite a bit, and with auditory memory being somewhat unreliable anyway I worry the delays would make the testing fairly unreliable anyway.



My testing regimen was a pain in the ***. I had U12 and Tanly powered and warmed up and had to switch out the USB input cable and the I2S output cable each time. I also had to level match with a white noise signal and db meter. Of course by this time my own auditory memory was questionable. Compounding the problem was my use of three separate tracks that emphasized bass response, dynamics and soundstage/imaging respectively. It would have been so much easier if I could just toggle a switch to A/B them. Faced with this time consuming and very flawed and subjective testing, the only way I could reach any sort of confident conclusions was if the differences were very obvious to me and repeatable with each changeover. In this case it was...and rather emphatically so. Not surprisingly, I noticed the biggest improvements with the Tanly in the soundstage/imaging arena. It's obviously a composite arena that includes treble response, low level resolution and a host of other factors. I am more sensitive to this than anything else and I believe it is a learned response from years of reviewing and certainly not any gifted auditory physiology.

Anywho....that's my long winded way of saying, like Mr. Bill, "I feel your pain."


----------



## Sonic Defender

stuartmc said:


> My testing regimen was a pain in the ***. I had U12 and Tanly powered and warmed up and had to switch out the USB input cable and the I2S output cable each time. I also had to level match with a white noise signal and db meter. Of course by this time my own auditory memory was questionable. Compounding the problem was my use of three separate tracks that emphasized bass response, dynamics and soundstage/imaging respectively. It would have been so much easier if I could just toggle a switch to A/B them. Faced with this time consuming and very flawed and subjective testing, the only way I could reach any sort of confident conclusions was if the differences were very obvious to me and repeatable with each changeover. In this case it was...and rather emphatically so. Not surprisingly, I noticed the biggest improvements with the Tanly in the soundstage/imaging arena. It's obviously a composite arena that includes treble response, low level resolution and a host of other factors. I am more sensitive to this than anything else and I believe it is a learned response from years of reviewing and certainly not any gifted auditory physiology.
> 
> Anywho....that's my long winded way of saying, like Mr. Bill, "I feel your pain."


 

 Wow, that was a lot of work! No wonder in this situation most people never bother to do the testing. If I can get my friend to assist I might one day try blind listening comparison with USB versus the MX-U8 AES. For now, it certainly sounds quite good, but sadly I can't say if this is any different as it sounded quite good before the U8! I decided to just take a shot as the cost wasn't very high so it was worth it. Maybe it does sound better, who knows? Cheers.


----------



## ginetto61

vic57 said:


> I successfully used *self-made chokes on ferrite rings *for a filtration of the USB supply voltage.
> Not the entire cable, as only two supply conductor is wound 5-7 turns per ring in the opposite direction ...


 
  
 Hi interesting ... do you have any pics ? what kind of improvements did you get ?
 I think that a very good isolation from mains is of paramount importance for digital equipment.
 Thanks,  gino


----------



## ginetto61

pakultra said:


> Hi everyone, I've just finished building my ultra-low noise power supply based on the 0.8uV DIYinHK kit and I'd like to share what I've found about this kit.
> 
> First, some photos of the build:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi ! you have done a great job indeed. And the noise levels you have reached are really impressive.
 How did you connect the new power supply to the U12 ?  with an umbilical ? do you have any pictures ?
  


> 3) *Regarding the choice of transformers*, I originally ordered a R-core but decided to try an EI core first because of their alleged superiority in isolating high frequency noises. My EI-core does work. It has become particularly important after I had to bypass the Murata EMI filters, but it does get hot and it HUMs when under full load. The humming is audible within a 2-foot range of the transformer. I haven't decided if I should replace the EI core with my R-core to get rid of the humming.
> But for now, I have learnt to use the humming as a cue to let me know whether the power supply is working under full load of not.


 
 very very interesting.  If the problem is the transformer rating you can try a bigger EI maybe.  I can only see that in some very high end equipment they are used, like in the Schiit Audio dacs and Berkeley Audio dacs.
 I have the feeling that EI transformers can even filter some kind of HF noise that passes through the regulators.   But a solution mains filter plus toroid could also work just fine.   And it should be even simpler to implement.  Just a simple mains RF filter is needed.
 Or even a power cord with high capacitance can have a nice effect in suppressing HF noise in the mains.
  


> I originally was thinking about building the same linear power supply for my Gustard U12 too, but after I modded my U12 to be fully isolated from USB power, it has become so quite that I don't think an external power supply is needed any more.
> Now, my U12 and NAD D1050 powered by 0.57uV hand-made power suppy work perfectly. I hear pure, relaxed, sweet and musical sound. This further confirms that an external power supply for U12 is unnecessary, though doable.


 
  
 My feeling is that the U12 is not very well isolated from noise in the mains.   A toroid transformer without any filter upstream.  A toroid is not a good filter.  EI is.
 Of course USB isolation is mandatory.  Pc power is weak and dirty.  Only data should be taken out from the pc (someone says that also data are dirty ... but to clean data is more complicated.  Someone is seriously thinking about this anyway)
  


> *Regarding the use of USB isolators*, I don't think they will be good for U12 once it has already been modded and isolated from USB power.
> External isolators can introduce jitter and distortion. I haven't tried them but I am not motivated to try them either, at least not until I am otherwise convinced.
> Hope my little report helps.
> Now, time to enjoy music!
> ...


 
  
 I guess you are right about usb isolator based on chip.  I have the same feeling. The sound is more grainy and less developed.
 I would use only usb power isolator like the Teradak U9 i am actually using.   It just interrupts the power lines and provides external power.   And it works fine.
 I have instead an isolator like this one here ...
  
https://www.circuitsathome.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/USB_isolator_built.jpg
  
 and i do not like the resulting sound.   Maybe it adds some jitter as you say.
 It was just a try ... not very successful unfortunately ...
 Congratulations again for your excellent project
 Regards, gino


----------



## abartels

pakultra said:


> Hi everyone, I've just finished building my ultra-low noise power supply based on the 0.8uV DIYinHK kit and I'd like to share what I've found about this kit.
> 
> First, some photos of the build:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi pakultra,
  
 Thanks for sharing this with us. I didn't take the time to look at the specs of Murata 1430R5, they indeed are 500mA only, i did report at DIYINHK and got an answer to remove them if they get too hot,,, hmm, not the answer I was looking for,,,,
 About the LT3042, it can deliver 1A when expanding schematics with external NPN, and that is what the people at DIYINHK did. Off course you can parallel more LT3042 to get higher output if needed.
  
 For me higher output power is of no importance since I will use them only to power the NDK's, one psu for each NDK. Since the NDK's only draw 6mA it will be no problem at all.
  
 I suppose those psu's are designed for the isolated I2S kit they sell, so design is not for high-power appliances.
  
  
 Regards and keep up the good work 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## pakultra

Hi ginetto61, thank you very much for your encouragement
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I didn't connect my power supply to U12. I connected it to my NAD D1050 dac in place of its factory default external 5V switching mode power supply. I just built a DC to DC cable out of Mogami 2549 and plugged it into my NAD D1050 5V DC power socket.
  
 U12 doesn't need this much power. 1A is enough for U12. To connect to U12, there are a few ways to achieve this. Here is what I'd suggest doing:
  
 1) disconnect pin 1 (Adjust)  and pin 3 (Vin) of the LM317 regulator. Pin 1 and Pin 3 are the two pins at the sides. These pins can be easily desoldered or just cut. Pin 2 (Vout) is in the center and it can be left as it is. Disconnecting pin 3 effectively disconnect everything U12 uses to generate its internal 5V power, including the Toroid transformer, the diodes and the two 2200 uf capacitors;
  
 2) connect the positive of your external 5V power to Pin 2 of LM317, or to Pin 3 (Vin) of LM1117, or to the 5V onboard via that is marked as 5V if you'd like to make connections at the bottom of the pcb;
  
 3) connect the negative of your external 5V power to Pin 1 (Adjust) of LM1117, or to Pin 1 of any of the two PE-65612 transformers if you'd like to work from the bottom of the pcb.
  
 Regarding transformers, you are right about picking a higher rating EI core. The one I used is rated at 8V x 1.25A x 2. Theoretically this is sufficient for what I need. I had thought about using its large brother that would be able to provide twice as much power, but eventually I picked the smaller one in favor of its smaller size. Next time I will definitely pick a bigger one.
  
 My whole system including the U12 is sitting behind a dedicated mains filter, that's probably why I haven't noticed any RF problems so far. By the way, I've also had Stetzerizer filters installed and have measured the RF noise level of my power sockets with a Stetzerizer Microsurge Meter. According to the meter readings, my mains' RF noise level is better than ideal.
  
 Regarding the USB isolator, I think the key is to have data reclocked after the isolation. Since you've already had an isolator at hand, I'd suggest that you try connecting a bus powered good usb hub between your isolator and your U12. Only connect the data lines from the hub to your U12 and keep using your Teradak U9 to supply power to U12's USB socket. The usb hub can function as a regenerator to smooth out the jitter. I don't know if this will work for you but I think it is worth trying it.
  
 Regards
  
 pakultra


----------



## pakultra

Hi Alex,
  
 Many thanks for your encouragement
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 It's a good idea to use these regulators to power each of your NDKs separately. The original DIYinHK design will be ideal for this without any problems of overheating or voltage drops at all. I might try this myself in my next project.
  
 Cheers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 pakultra


----------



## Vic57

Please sorry- I can not attach a picture ... apparently my account does not allow it. AND so sorry for bad inglish- i am from Belarus


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## ginetto61

pakultra said:


> I didn't connect my power supply to U12. I connected it to my NAD D1050 dac in place of its factory default external 5V switching mode power supply. I just built a DC to DC cable out of Mogami 2549 and plugged it into my NAD D1050 5V DC power socket.
> U12 doesn't need this much power. 1A is enough for U12. To connect to U12, there are a few ways to achieve this. Here is what I'd suggest doing:
> 1) disconnect pin 1 (Adjust)  and pin 3 (Vin) of the LM317 regulator. Pin 1 and Pin 3 are the two pins at the sides. These pins can be easily desoldered or just cut. Pin 2 (Vout) is in the center and it can be left as it is. Disconnecting pin 3 effectively disconnect everything U12 uses to generate its internal 5V power, including the Toroid transformer, the diodes and the two 2200 uf capacitors;
> 2) connect the positive of your external 5V power to Pin 2 of LM317, or to Pin 3 (Vin) of LM1117, or to the 5V onboard via that is marked as 5V if you'd like to make connections at the bottom of the pcb;
> 3) connect the negative of your external 5V power to Pin 1 (Adjust) of LM1117, or to Pin 1 of any of the two PE-65612 transformers if you'd like to work from the bottom of the pcb.


 
  
 Hi Pakultra,   the mods your propose are too difficult to me.  I understand now that there are two regulators on board and this adds difficulties ( i thought there was just one).
*My idea is much more basic.*   I would like to keep the board as it is.  I just want to bypass the power supply on board to use an external  DC power supply of decent quality (maybe a 12VDC power supply ? anyway the one i have can be set from 5 to 30 VDC)
*So i will arrive with this DC on the board directly feeding the big caps before the regulators*.  Just to explain *it would be like extracting transformer and diode bridges and use the external DC power supply to power the unit. *
 I will have for sure a better filtering of the mains noise and less noise because *i will feed an already regulated DC to the board*.  The regulators will still be working as normal. No mods to the pcb at all in this first attempt.   If the result will not be satisfactory i will think of something more drastic.
 In the first approach no mods to the pcb.  Just soldering the two wires carrying the DC power from the external PS. 


> Regarding transformers, you are right about picking a higher rating EI core. The one I used is rated at 8V x 1.25A x 2. Theoretically this is sufficient for what I need. I had thought about using its large brother that would be able to provide twice as much power, but eventually I picked the smaller one in favor of its smaller size. Next time I will definitely pick a bigger one


 
 If you look at many units you will see that the transformer is located quite far from the circuit.  Or shielded. 
 The voltage transformers usually vibrate and generate EMI. For this i think that a separate metallic box would be very beneficial. 
 I would never use a toroid with digital.  For analog are ok but never for digital.  
  


> *My whole system including the U12 is sitting behind a dedicated mains filter*, that's probably why I haven't noticed any RF problems so far. By the way, I've also had Stetzerizer filters installed and have measured the RF noise level of my power sockets with a Stetzerizer Microsurge Meter. According to the meter readings, my mains' RF noise level is better than ideal.


  
 I think that this is a key point. I think that a good mains filter will have the same effect (or better) of an EI/R-core transformer in suppressing HF/RF noise from the mains. 
 And also the filters that you mention.  As i am sure i have RF issues in my mains. 
 I have this lab supply that inside has a EI transformer, i am absolute sure that it will have a much better isolation and RF filtering effect. I am sure of that.  But i have to listen also to be very sure 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  


> Regarding the USB isolator, I think the key is to have data reclocked after the isolation. Since you've already had an isolator at hand, I'd suggest that you try connecting a bus powered good usb hub between your isolator and your U12. Only connect the data lines from the hub to your U12 and keep using your Teradak U9 to supply power to U12's USB socket. The usb hub can function as a regenerator to smooth out the jitter. I don't know if this will work for you but I think it is worth trying it.  Regards  pakultra


 
  
 Maybe i am confusing things but *without a quartz there cannot be any reclocking i guess*.  If there are no quartz there is no reclocking.   All the isolators i have at hand and i have bought do not have a quartz on board and therefore they do not reclock the usb signal.
 And i guess they introduce some kind of additional noise/jitter.
 Does the hub you mention have a quartz on-board ?
  
 However actually there is now on the market a isolator and regenerator very well reviewed ... the Uptone USB Regen
  
http://uptoneaudio.com/products/usb-regen
  

  
 this device placed in between the pc and a usb dac or converter both will isolate the dac and also reclock the usb signal.
 Clearly the final and master reclocking will be inside the dac/converter but this device providing a regenerated (i.e. cleaner and stronger, less jittery)  usb signal will make the work for the XMOS usb receiver inside the dac easier (they say).
 They say it works quite ok. It is the last fashion .... there is a thread going on on Computer Audiophile. 
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## Vic57

http://forum.vegalab.ru/showthread.php?t=70175&page=5 My XPERIENCE.


----------



## Vic57

ginetto61 said:


> http://uptoneaudio.com/products/usb-regen
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Particularly impressive is the price...


----------



## ginetto61

vic57 said:


> Particularly impressive is the price...


 
  
 Hi of course i have no direct experience of this device and i am not sure that in my humble system it could make any difference
 but i have learned that usb transmission is not that reliable as i thought ... there is always some issue and the longer the cable the more the issues
 This device when place very close to the receiving usb dac or converter is said to improve the performance of even very expensive dacs
 If the dac is already a 4-5000 USD piece to add other 175 USD is nothing.   The production is limited and there is a long waiting list.  
 I will wait and see


----------



## Vic57

I have not quite cheap DAC which provides the structure that allows you to not worry about the presence of jitter ... But if it is possible to improve the transmission of the signal then why not do it?


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## Vic57

I have a question-why my account does not allow me to post pictures? Who can help me solve this problem?


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## prot

vic57 said:


> Particularly impressive is the price...




That's a very simple barebone board which costs more than the whole Gustard U12. I'd call it "impressively overpriced"


----------



## ginetto61

vic57 said:


> *I have not quite cheap DAC which provides the structure that allows you to not worry about the presence of jitter ... *
> But if it is possible to improve the transmission of the signal then why not do it?


 
 you mean jitter in the usb signal ? actually *i thought that jitter were more an issue only with spdif transmission*
 instead with usb that is an Asynchronous Transfer Mode the jitter issue should be less critical
 there is another clock inside the usb dac or converter and that is what acts as master clock ... 
*maybe with a noisy usb signal the usb receiver chip can have problem*
 but it is never too late for discovering another problem with digital
 sometimes i wonder how it could even work ... so complicated that is crazy


----------



## Vic57

ginetto61 said:


> you mean jitter in the usb signal ? actually *i thought that jitter were more an issue only with spdif transmission*
> instead with usb that is an Asynchronous Transfer Mode the jitter issue should be less critical
> there is another clock inside the usb dac or converter and that is what acts as master clock ...
> *maybe with a noisy usb signal the usb receiver chip can have problem*
> ...


 
 Of course not. Jeter I used as an example ... 
  I think that the problem of noise USB signal not too  high. I use the professinal program to play musics  .  that shows errors when transmitting digital music file.It shows their lack of a sufficient buffer size ...


----------



## Vic57

I will leave the discussion. My bad English does not allow me to properly express their thoughts ... I apologize to everyone. I'll read it.


----------



## ginetto61

vic57 said:


> Of course not. Jeter I used as an example ...
> I think that the problem of noise USB signal not too  high. I use the professinal program to play musics  .  that shows errors when transmitting digital music file.It shows their lack of a sufficient buffer size ...


 
  
 Hi again.  I am not an expert but i am quite surprised that only now so called experts talk about the flaws in usb signal transfer.
 This is for me really puzzling. 
 I see usb cables with ferrite beads and then an expert shows with the scope that this ferrite can deform the signal.
 Is this a joke or it is a serious thing ????
 However in the end i will wait before jumping on the last device
 I would just try to:
 1)   keep the usb connection between the pc and the converter as short as possible
 2)   use a good quality, short and without ferrite usb cable
 3)   try maybe some pci-e to usb card (i do not know which one.  There is one "audiophile" approved but it is too expensive.
 And then from the converter to the dac i will use AES digital connection.  A good old reliable pro standard.
 Thanks again and regards,   gino


----------



## b0bb

USB as a transfer protocol  has more error detection and correction than SPDIF, I think the best way if you are connecting a computer to a DAC is to leave USB out of the picture completely and use Ethernet.
  
 Unlike USB, galvanic isolation is required by the Ethernet standard, running an error correcting protocol like TCP/IP over Ethenret guarantees error free transmission.
  
 Here is a barebones version of one of my USB free setups.

 Total cost of the above including power supplies is a couple dollars less than the Melodious MXU8, about $300 with a decent metal case.
  
 The little board is the Raspberry Pi2 (RPi2), it is connected to the bigger board which is the Soekris DAM1021 R2R ladder DAC.
 Interconnect is plain-jane I2S.
  
 The I2S connection is galvanically isolated and the DAC reclocks the data to remove jitter much like the Tanly but at a much lower cost.
 Galvanic isolation breaks the signal and ground connection and gets rid of the the RF noise headaches.
  
 The setup is isolated twice, network-RPi2 followed by RPI2-DAC
  
 Software on the RPi2 is squeezelite which means this is a Logitech Squeezebox type device.
  
 The silver cable at the bottom of the picture is a USB to serial that I use to load a custom DSP filter profile into the DAC, there are about 10 or so useful filter options.
  
 The USB ports on the RPi2 can be used to connect to a USB dac.
 Over USB, DSD over PCM (DoP) is supported and PCM sample rates up to 384kHz.


----------



## ginetto61

b0bb said:


> USB as a transfer protocol  has more error detection and correction than SPDIF, I think the best way if you are connecting a computer to a DAC is to leave USB out of the picture completely and use Ethernet.
> *Unlike USB, galvanic isolation is required by the Ethernet standard*, running an error correcting protocol like TCP/IP over Ethenret guarantees error free transmission......


 
  
 Hi thanks for the very interesting advice.  _*Do you mean that an Ethernet cable does not carry power from the pc ? only data ?*_
 What about these ... can they be useful in some way ?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Sl-sPpM%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## b0bb

ginetto61 said:


> Hi thanks for the very interesting advice.  Do you mean that an Ethernet cable does not carry power from the pc ? only data ?
> What about these ... can they be useful in some way ?
> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Sl-sPpM%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
> Thanks again,  gino


 

 Correct,
  
 The links are for USB to Ethernet and will work quite nicely.
 What I posted is a very compact audio receiver/streamer, so it is very different cmpared to the computer sending out audio over usb which uses the DAC like a soundcard.


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *b0bb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Correct,
> The links are for USB to Ethernet and will work quite nicely.


 
 Hi and thanks again.  I have bought a pair and i will try them out soon.
  


> What I posted is a very compact audio receiver/streamer,
> so it is very different cmpared to the computer sending out audio over usb which uses the DAC like a soundcard.


 
  
 i see.  Personally i would like to use the pc ... let's say that i am just looking for a decent sound but using the pc.
 Honestly i did not think of all these issues ... it is like a nightmare.
 Thanks a lot again,   gino


----------



## b0bb

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks again.  I have bought a pair and i will try them out soon.
> 
> 
> i see.  Personally i would like to use the pc ... let's say that i am just looking for a decent sound but using the pc.
> ...


 
  
 The system is basically 3 parts
 1)Audio mediaserver aka Logitech Media Server (install this on the PC)
 2)Audio player control app for example Softsqueeze for the PC, iPeng for the iPad, Orange Squeeze for the Android Things
 3)Audio player this runs on the RPI
  
 This gets the PC out of the audio transmission completely, the player app instructs the RPI to grab audio as a datastream from the server also installed on the PC.
  
 When it is running I can disconnect the Ethernet for 1-2 seconds and reconnect it and the RPI will not miss a beat, the audio buffers are several megabytes in size.


----------



## b0bb

ginetto61 said:


> Hi thanks for the very interesting advice.  _*Do you mean that an Ethernet cable does not carry power from the pc ? only data ?*_
> What about these ... can they be useful in some way ?
> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Sl-sPpM%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
> Thanks again,  gino


 

 You can also use the same ethernet connection if there is one existing on your PC, a dedicated connection to the RPI is not needed.
 This means plug the ethernet cable from the RPI into the switch where your PC is connected.
  
 Multiple ethernet interfaces on the same PC (multihoming) can sometime cause Windows to tie itself into a knot if they are on the same IP subnet.


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *b0bb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> You can also use the same ethernet connection if there is one existing on your PC, a dedicated connection to the RPI is not needed.
> This means plug the ethernet cable from the RPI into the switch where your PC is connected.
> Multiple ethernet interfaces on the same PC (multihoming) can sometime cause Windows to tie itself into a knot if they are on the same IP subnet.


 
  
 Hi this is a problem because the ethernet port on the pc is connected to the router. I have all my music on a Nas also connected to the same router.  So it is not available. I need the adapter. 
  
*However to me this problem of the bad USB transmission was never heard.  This has complicated things a lot.*
  
*I was aware of the need of electrical separation from the pc, but not of the need of usb regeneration at all. *
  
 Actually i am still hoping that i could do without this.   Using a high quality short usb cable between pc and usb to spdif/AES converter.
 If this device really works and is not patented many clones will appear soon.
 Maybe it will be enough for decent sound. And i could use what i already have.
 I like the semplicity of pc interface.
 Moreover there are many SW players free like VLC and XMBC that can sound pretty good if the HW is up to the task.
 For instance i have used VLC on a win 8.1 mini pc for playing wav files ... the sound was very very good.
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## b0bb

This stuff is opensource. Logitech made the intellectual property available when they exited the Squeezebox business a few years ago.
  
 If the PC has already mounted the NAS shares the players and server will be able to see it.
  
 Below a screen capture of the Webinterface of the server's playlist manager.
 On this capture there are 3 RPI2s active plus 2 squeezeboxes.
  
 The control app is also visible, this takes the place of a  regular player like VLC or foobar.


----------



## b0bb

ginetto61 said:


> *I was aware of the need of electrical separation from the pc, but not of the need of usb regeneration at all. *


 
 I would not worry about that, this just marketing spin to enhance the apparent value of the product they are selling.
  
 A digital signal like USB is always regenerated as it progress from one part of the circuit to another.


----------



## ginetto61

b0bb said:


> I would not worry about that, this just marketing spin to enhance the apparent value of the product they are selling.
> 
> *A digital signal like USB is always regenerated as it progress from one part of the circuit to another.*


 
  
 Hi and thanks again and this was exacting my understanding
 The usb signal is regenerated anytime there is a quartz on board and always at the usb to spdif converter or usb dac level.
 I can only think that the device in discussion providing a usb signal of better quality to the usb receiver inside the dac or the converter can make the work for the usb receiver chip easier.
  
 However i would like, for what is possible, to start with a good quality usb signal and try to preserve its quality up to the usb receiver in the dac avoiding the need of another reclocking device.
 If possible of course ...
  
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## Voltot

About NZ2520S... #1 corner with dot or what?


----------



## abartels

voltot said:


> About NZ2520S... #1 corner with dot or what?


 
 Yes, corner with dot is pin 1, to the right is pin2


----------



## Sonic Defender

Again, with all of this talk about USB issues, where is the evidence that it is audible in any meaningful way? While hearing is a very powerful sense, I think we over-estimate just what the sensitivity to difference threshold really is. Factor in how fast and complex music is and I rather doubt a single person on this thread could possibly detect the difference between well done USB, AES or Ethernet.


----------



## abartels

sonic defender said:


> Again, with all of this talk about USB issues, where is the evidence that it is audible in any meaningful way? While hearing is a very powerful sense, I think we over-estimate just what the sensitivity to difference threshold really is. Factor in how fast and complex music is and I rather doubt a single person on this thread could possibly detect the difference between well done USB, AES or Ethernet.


 
  
 Not to be picky, but:
  
 It all depends on connected equipment, and, off course, our ears.
 Please don't judge on others while it could be a possibility that your equipment isn't capable of reproducing the differences.
  
 I must agree, I think there are many members who can't hear those differences within their equipment, at least NOT the differences I hear at my set, but, that's the whole meaning of evolving,
 expanding our equipment, testing, modifying, exchanging components, selling, buying, changing accoustics in listening room, and so on,,
  
  
 The last 35 years were very evolving for me, I'm VERY sure 25 years ago i couldn't hear the difference between a very good and a bad interlink, when connected to the equipment I had at hand then,
 Nowadays I can.
  
 If you can't hear the differences, then it be so, no problem at all, but please don't start asking for evidence. If you were living at The Netherlands, I gladly would invite you to a listening session at my place.
  
 Maybe someone over in the US can invite you at his or her place to do so?
  
  
 Have a drink 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 , I at least will when I'm finished working today


----------



## Sonic Defender

abartels said:


> Not to be picky, but:
> 
> It all depends on connected equipment, and, off course, our ears.
> Please don't judge on others while it could be a possibility that your equipment isn't capable of reproducing the differences.


 
 Take a look at my equipment, it is quite capable of showing differences. I think there is just a fundamental disconnect in that many people believe that they can hear these minute, perhaps even inaudible changes simply because they are not doing blind listening tests, and multiple trials. Now please note, I am not saying this is fact, my point is when you read these reported differences between USB?AES/ Ethernet etc, the evidence is always grounded in high-level theory which again I ask, how do we know these differences are audible in any meaningful way? Measureable and audible can be the same thing, but not necessarily.


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> *Take a look at my equipment, it is quite capable of showing differences....*


 
  
 Hi yes you have a very good system.  Do you mean that the M51 is connect directly to one usb port of the pc with a off-the-shelf "normal" usb cable ??
 And then which OS and pc ? i am curious sorry 
 Thanks,  gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

Hi Gino, I have a regular old USB cable which goes from my PC to the MX-U8. From the U8 I have a nice Digiflex AES cable that goes into my M51 which connects to my amp via the balanced out of the M51. Again, I want to be clear I'm not trying to say that it is complete fact that the differences say between a well done USB and an AES can't be heard, I'm just saying that I have yet to see any solid information presented as to why a USB out that is well designed should sound worse than say a AES out.


----------



## pakultra

U12 mod final update:
  
 Hi my friends, I've just replaced the default TCXOs with 2 NDK NZ2520SD crystals thanks to Alex's advice. The new crystals have been running for only 10 hours but I am happy with the results already. So far, I can't say the improvement is like night and day, but there are clear differences if you know what to check for. Overall, the sound is more natural and more enjoyable with the NDKs. This is particularly evident with some of my favorite test passages of songs/music that are usually difficult to do right.  
  
 Here are the NDKs that arrived in mail yesterday. They are so tiny I had to use my modded Microsoft Live Studio magnifier to see what's printed on them.
  

  
 Here is how I put the NDKs into my U12:
  
 1) Took out the TCXO's and soldered two Mill-Max 110-43-314-10-001000 gold dip14 (4 out) sockets in their place. These sockets have full 0.76µm gold contacts. The best available. These sockets will make rolling different crystals as easy as plug-and-play.
  

  





  
  
 2) built pcb adapters for NDK crystals with Mill-Max 3320-0-00-15-00-00-03-0 gold pins: 
  
  


  
  
 3) soldered Murata GRM2195C1H103FA01D smd 0.01 uf caps to the adapters. 

Capacitance10000pFTolerance±1%Voltage - Rated50VTemperature CoefficientC0G, NP0

  
 These capacitors are ultra accurate, have No voltage drift, negligible temperature drift and do NOT age.
  

  
  
 4) All soldering work was done with Wonder Solder (197 degree melting point) or Chip-Quik 137 degree low temperature solder paste. This prevented NDK' performance from being degraded by possible overheating during soldering process. The blue hookup wire used is *Neotech UPOCC 20 AWG Cryo Treated* mono-crystal pure copper wire. 
  

  
  
  

  
  
 With NDKs added on top of my previous mods, I would consider my Gustard U12 modding project a full success and I am ready to move on.
  
 Here is a full list of mods I've completed for my U12:
  
 1) Grounded to IEC with Neotech UPOCC 20 AWG Cryo Treated 20 awg mono-crystal copper wire sourced from takefiveaudio.
  
 2) Relay switch removed from board to stop possible power pollution of 80 mA current flowing through the board as well as to save 0.5w per hour power consumption;
  
 3) Relay bypassed with the same Neotech UPOCC 20 awg cryo treated mono-crystal copper wire;
  
 4) Onboard 5+ supplied to XMOS USB Vcc detection pin via a 470k pullup resistor to trick U12 into believing that it has seen USB power so that it will start communicating over USB; this mod is a must so that U12 does NOT use usb power anymore;
  
 5) USB B socket's Vcc and Ground output pins de-soldered from board, flush-cut and insulated. This is a must so that U12 is completely and safely isolated from any USB power. It is safe to use regular USB cables with my modded U12, although data-only cable are recommended for best possible sound;
  
 6) Coaxial transformer replaced with Murata DA101C sourced from digikey.ca;
  
 7) Two 2200 uf capacitors replaced with ultralow impedance 2200 uf Nichicon HW UHW1E222MHD6 (14 mohm impedance) sourced from digikey.ca. These caps are better the Panasonic caps.
  
 8) Took out TXCO's and soldered 14dip (4 out) gold sockets in its place;
  
 9) NDKs fitted to handmade adapters and seated securely in the gold sockets;
  
  
 I'd like to thank all forum members who have helped to make the mods possible. Special thanks go to hgpsemaj and Alex.
  
 Thank you all!
  
 Cheers!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 pakultra


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> Hi Gino, I have a *regular old USB cable* which goes from my PC *to the MX-U8.*
> From the U8 I have *a nice Digiflex AES cable *that goes into my M51 which connects to my amp via the balanced out of the M51.
> Again, I want to be clear I'm not trying to say that it is complete fact that the differences say between a well done USB and an AES can't be heard,
> I'm just saying that I have yet to see any solid information presented as to why a USB out that is well designed should sound worse than say a AES out.


 
  
 Sorry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... i lost my mind.  I did not remember that you have the Melodious ... but you have not updated your system 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Dac aside, your Nad must be really fantastic, i have also a pc, belden usb cable, Melodious, Canare AES DA202 and an Apogee dac and this is the best sound i heard in my home from a digital source
 with an HP amp and k701.
 The only thing that i would like to improve of the Melodious is the isolation from mains, but it is more an obsession of mine.
 I think also the AES is a better connection than spdif.  For one thing is truly 110 ohm while RCA is not 75 ohm and this can cause problems. 
 Thanks for the useful reply.  Kind regards,  gino


----------



## ginetto61

pakultra said:


> U12 mod final update:
> 
> Hi my friends, I've just replaced the default TCXOs with 2 NDK NZ2520SD crystals thanks to Alex's advice. The new crystals have been running for only 10 hours but I am happy with the results already. So far, I can't say the improvement is like night and day, but there are clear differences if you know what to check for. Overall, the sound is more natural and more enjoyable with the NDKs. This is particularly evident with some of my favorite test passages of songs/music that are usually difficult to do right.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi and sincere congratulations for your impressive project. Really,
 Sorry if you already told me and i forgot it (it was you using the Blue Circle mains filter?)  
 but are you using *some kind of mains filter device ? * i ask this because i am sure than an Achille's heel of the U12 is *poor mains noise filtering. *
 Mains noise entering a digital device is one of the worst evils for sound.
 I have bought and not yet received a simple mains filter to listen for any improvements.
 I am sure that with the U12 in a normal home context some mains filtering solution is mandatory for the best result.
 Thanks and congratulations again,   gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

ginetto61 said:


> Sorry
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Gino, thank you, and yes the NAD M3 is a very nice integrated amplifier. I will update my signature, thanks for reminding me! Cheers.


----------



## riffer

pakultra said:


> U12 mod final update:
> 
> .....


 
  
 Nicely done.


----------



## pakultra

ginetto61 said:


> Sorry if you already told me and i forgot it (it was you using the Blue Circle mains filter?)
> but are you using *some kind of mains filter device ? * i ask this because i am sure than an Achille's heel of the U12 is *poor mains noise filtering. *
> Mains noise entering a digital device is one of the worst evils for sound.
> I have bought and not yet received a simple mains filter to listen for any improvements.
> ...


 
  
 Thank you ginetto61 
  
 Yes, I am the one using the Blue Circle Audio mains filter. It cost me about $300. I guess it is just some inductors and well chosen capacitors inside. These are normally good for killing differential mode noises. I am using ferrite beads to tame common mode noises. However, I didn't notice any difference with or without the ferrite beads. Beside these, I don't have any other mains filter device. I don't know exactly which mains filter device you have in mind (pictures?), but your comments just inspired me to use the Murata Hybrid Chokes that I have on my board to curb the common mode noises
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 These chokes cost about 4 dollar each. They are rated for 300v, so there won't be any problems connecting them to the mains. I have two at hand. I can use one for U12 and one for my DAC. But I have to desolder them from the PCB first.
  
 Cheers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 pakultra


----------



## pakultra

riffer said:


> pakultra said:
> 
> 
> > U12 mod final update:
> ...


 
 Thank you bro


----------



## ginetto61

pakultra said:


> Thank you ginetto61
> Yes, I am the one using the Blue Circle Audio mains filter. It cost me about $300. I guess it is just some inductors and well chosen capacitors inside. These are normally good for killing differential mode noises.
> I am using ferrite beads to tame common mode noises. However, I didn't notice any difference with or without the ferrite beads. Beside these, I don't have any other mains filter device.


 
  
 Hi and thanks again for the helpful advice.
 I guess you have also tried with the Blue Circle Audio filter. With very clean mains maybe there will be no big differences, but this is hardly the case in a normal context.
 I see many dacs with toroidal transformer using a mains filter before the transformer.  I still prefer EI, maybe shielded,  but these days toroidals are everywhere, they are very very popular.
  
  


> I don't know exactly which mains filter device you have in mind (pictures?),


 
  
 just something basic like this one ... it should be better than nothing .. i will put it before the converter mains socket.
  
http://www.tme.eu/html/gfx/ramka_3256.jpg
  
 I saw also used for low power consumption devices, after the transformers, diodes of the *Schottky type*
  


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schottky_diode
> 
> The most important difference between the p–n and Schottky diode is reverse recovery time (Trr), when the diode switches from conducting to non-conducting state. Where in a p–n diode the reverse recovery time can be in the order of hundreds of nanoseconds and less than 100 ns for fast diodes, Schottky diodes do not have a recovery time, as there is nothing to recover from (i.e. no charge carrier depletion region at the junction).
> *The switching time is ~100 ps for the small signal diodes, and up to tens of nanoseconds for special high-capacity power diodes*.
> ...


 
  


> but your comments just inspired me to use the *Murata Hybrid Chokes *that I have on my board to curb the common mode noises
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 these are very interesting.   I will look for a data sheet with some application notes.
 Given that the BC Audio filter is already very effective maybe in your case the added benefits will be marginal.
 Instead i have nothing for now and i strongly feel i have to put something.
 These are very very interesting.  And also very compact.
 I should receive the above filter very soon.  I am curious to listen to the converters (i have both) with this filter in line.
 Actually i do not know how good is really the Gustard U12 as stock.  It seems well done.
 As your great project shows some more attention to details, that details are not, can be very rewarding in terms of performance.
 Thanks a lot again,   gino


----------



## abartels

pakultra said:


> U12 mod final update:
> 
> Hi my friends, I've just replaced the default TCXOs with 2 NDK NZ2520SD crystals thanks to Alex's advice. The new crystals have been running for only 10 hours but I am happy with the results already. So far, I can't say the improvement is like night and day, but there are clear differences if you know what to check for. Overall, the sound is more natural and more enjoyable with the NDKs. This is particularly evident with some of my favorite test passages of songs/music that are usually difficult to do right.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice Job pakultra, looking good!
  
 Just wait another 100 hours or so before making a final listening impression 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It will gain much much more 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Well done,
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## pakultra

>


 
  
 Hi ginetto61,
  
 I like your idea of adding a mains filter like the type you showed us. I've done some searching and I am planning to order these based on their superior filtering specs:
  

Manufacturer Schaffner EMC Inc Manufacturer Part Number FN2090-4-06 DescriptionFILTER MULTI-STAGE HI PERFORM 4A
  




  

Manufacturer Schaffner EMC Inc Manufacturer Part Number FN2090-12-06 DescriptionFILTER MULTI-STAGE HI PERF 12A
  




  
 These filters have two stages and look quite promising based on their datasheets.
  
 Besides, I will test these in my power supply to see if they can actually improve things. These will cover almost all frequencies up to 5.5 GHZ
  







 2  




490-5055-NDFILTER EMI 15A 25V 100KHZ-1GHZ  
1
 Immediate05.52000$5.52





 3  




445-2991-1-NDFILTER 3-TERM .65 TO 2.5GHZ SMD  
3
 Immediate00.82000$2.46





 4  




445-2989-1-NDFILTER 3-TERM 2.0 TO 5.5GHZ SMD  
3
 Immediate00.73000$2.19

  
 I also believe that diodes are important. I've got 8 Cree diodes at hand that I ordered last week. These diodes are believed to be far superior to even the best Schottky diodes because they have zero recovery voltage or current spikes.
  

Manufacturer Cree Inc Manufacturer Part Number C3D02060E DescriptionDIODE SCHOTTKY 600V 2A TO252-2





 I will most probably not be able to notice any improvement even if I do put these diodes into my ultra-quite power supply. I don't know. but it's fun to explore and learn...
  
 Cheers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 pakultra


----------



## hgpsemaj

pakultra said:


> U12 mod final update:
> 
> Hi my friends, I've just replaced the default TCXOs with 2 NDK NZ2520SD crystals thanks to Alex's advice. The new crystals have been running for only 10 hours but I am happy with the results already. So far, I can't say the improvement is like night and day, but there are clear differences if you know what to check for. Overall, the sound is more natural and more enjoyable with the NDKs. This is particularly evident with some of my favorite test passages of songs/music that are usually difficult to do right.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hello Pakultra,
  
 A job that is well done is like a benchmark.
  
  
  
 Cheers,    
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 hgpsemaj


----------



## Voltot

pakultra thanks. I modded my U12 same as you but without 470k pullup resistor. Does it matter?


----------



## ginetto61

pakultra said:


> Hi ginetto61,
> 
> I like your idea of adding a mains filter like the type you showed us. I've done some searching and I am planning to order these based on their superior filtering specs:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Pakultra and thanks for the very interesting advice.
 Clearly i am not really serious in my approach for different reasons.  Just to start i have no scope to see what is going on in a circuit.
 I am just peeping inside famous units of great sound hoping to learn something.   A schematic would be much helpful for this.
 The parts you have selected i guess are the best available.  As you say it is difficult to foresee if they will have any impact on sound.
 Maybe it is trivial but for a me a great unit starts with a great power supply.
 And in low signal units suppression of all kind of noise (mains noise, diodes noise, EMI/RFI noise) is fundamental.
 But again your approach to kill the noise after the transformer is equally good.
 A scope more than a ear could show the situation.   A scope is much more sensitive than a human ear.
 Where will you buy these parts from ?  i like the Shaffner filters very much.  I could skip on the transformer replacement and try one of these filters.
 Maybe the outcome would be even better ?
 Just as a reference this is a very good dac from Schiit Audio ... actually their new TOTL dac said to have an exceptional sound.
  
http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/imagecache_thumbnail_product_gallery_large/yggdrasil_pcb_1000.jpg
  
 Looking at its power supply can give important hints about how a PS for digital euipment must be designed.
 A very strong chain clerly cannot have weak links. If all the dac is extremely good the PS must also be very good indeed.
*Anyway also dealing with the PS noise at regulators level could work perfectly the same (actually even better ... maybe i am overrating this PS issue).*
 So my idea is that the same parts (with the right ratings of course) put in a cheaper unit could give some benefits.
 For the best units that provide the best sound possible the parts selected can be the best available. Cost is less of a constraint and top sound is the goal.
 You see ? no toroidals ... attention to mains filtering and rectifying diodes ... chokes ...
 Do you have some pics of your modified U12 ?  how are you placing the new PS ?
 I would think to a new box for sure.   Something bigger with the space for everything inside. The U12 box is already quite full of parts.
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## pakultra

voltot said:


> pakultra thanks. I modded my U12 same as you but without 470k pullup resistor. Does it matter?


 
 Hi Voltot,
  
 You are most welcome.
  
 No, the pullup resistor doesn't matter much. U12 will work fine without it.
  
 The purpose of the resistor is to minimize voltage/current fight/conflict if a USB Vcc is accidentally connected and introduced into U12. The resistor serves as a safeguard to protect both U12 and your computer's USB port while minimizing current flow through the jumper. But it is not necessary if you have already hard-disconnected the Vcc pin of your U12.
  
 Congratulations on your mods!
  
 Cheers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 pakultra


----------



## pakultra

Hi ginetto61,
  
 I am buying the filters from Digikey.ca.
  
 Here:
 http://www.digikey.ca/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=173055166&uq=635684855024229284
 http://www.digikey.ca/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=173130440&uq=635684855024229284
  
 The 4A model is sold cheaper here: https://www.e-sonic.com/product-detail/schaffner-emc/fn2090406.html?p=12331583
  
 Ideally, I'd like to put one of these before each audio device and each EMI source as well (for example my PC and my TV). I will also need to add a metal box for each filter. I am considering sth. like this:
  




  
 http://vk3kid.org/?page_id=1725
  
 All this means a lot of work and money. I will do it step by step if initial results are good.
  
 Thanks for sharing the Schiit Audio device. I love seeing beautiful layout like that...
  
 The LT3042 has strong filtering power for RFI noises below 1MHZ, but it doesn't do anything to higher frequency RFI noises, so additional filtering either before or after is needed if RFI is a problem.
  
 There is no room inside U12 for any major power supply mods. I haven't done anything to the U12 main power supply yet because that would require drilling a hole on its beautiful case to let the external power go in. Besides, I've only made one good PSU, which has already been committed to my DAC.
  
 Here is how my U12 looks like with its top off:

  
  
  
 Of course I've put the top cover back on after taking the photo. It looks exactly the same as a new unmodded U12 from outside.
  
 Cheers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 pakultra


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi Pakultra and thanks for the very interesting advice.
> Clearly i am not really serious in my approach for different reasons.  Just to start i have no scope to see what is going on in a circuit.
> I am just peeping inside famous units of great sound hoping to learn something.   A schematic would be much helpful for this.
> The parts you have selected i guess are the best available.  As you say it is difficult to foresee if they will have any impact on sound.
> ...


 

 Or you could just run one of these right before the U12 or MXU8 - I have and the results are excellent and reversible. And relativly cheap.  The Pro version with the Advanced Power Filtering should not be confused with the non-Pro version which will do line by line EMI/RFI filtering.
  
 The Advanced Power Filtering uses both Common Mode and Differential Mode filters, in addition to the EMI/RFI filters. 
  
 From Blue Circle on Common Mode Rejection on their excellent and expensive $2,200 BC60X1:


> The balanced power outlets offer another advantage. First of all, not only do they share all the filtering of the other outlets, there is also​ some additional filtering on the secondary of the transformer. Another advantage to using balanced power is a phenomenon called​ common-mode rejection or CMR. This can best be explained visually so refer to the figure below.​ When the center-tap on the secondary is tied to ground as in the figure above, any noise on one side of the grounded center tap is​ 180˚ out of phase with the noise on the other side. This means that the noise on either side of the center tap will cancel out. This​ adds another level of filtering to these outlets. It also prevents any noise being generated by one component (such as clock noise​ from a DAC) from leaking into the power supply of another component connected to the conditioner. This offers a great advantage to​ components that are processing very low-level signals, like phonostages​​


 
  
*ART PB4x4Pro Power Distribution System with Advanced Power Filtering:*
All PRO SERIES models have an additional internal discrete module called APF (Advanced Power Filtering) which filters out digital and dimmer hash as well as any high frequency noise that is above the audio range. *Some off-the-shelf add-on modules saturate and lose their filtering effectiveness as the load increases, but by using a high power discrete design we were able to create a filter that stays effective over the full operating range.*

By using both Common Mode and Differential Mode topologies in series for the filter design we are able to block virtually all of the unwanted noise that is between the AC line and ground, and also the two sides of the AC line. This has the additional benefit of reducing ground loop problems in your system. High frequency noise currents in particular are highly attenuated in both directions so that any line noise that could be generated by one of your components is not allowed to get back into your main A.C. wiring so if you use a number of PRO SERIES Power Conditioners in your setup, you can distribute and isolate the noisy components from the sensitive components in your system. Additionally, any signals above 10kHz are filtered from the line with over 40dB of attenuation above 100kHz and beyond.

Every PRO SERIES power conditioner is designed with a power capacity of 1800 Watts, surge/spike protection, APF with EMI & RFI filtering, front-mounted unswitched power outlet and an adjustable rear-mounted gooseneck light source for bright illumination behind the rack. The spacing and alignment of the rear outlets to accommodate various size power plugs and AC adapters.

 *Features:*




  
 Not bad for $85


 APF - Advanced Power Filtering
 Power Capacity of 1800 Watts
 Surge & Spike Protection
 EMI & RFI Filtering
 8 Rear Outlets with Power Adapter Friendly Positioning
 One Front-mounted Unswitched Power Outlet
 

 Non-pro version of the PB 4X4 with EMI/RFI at the AC and between each AC block ($49) - which the Pro version has in addition to the APS:


----------



## abartels

pakultra said:


> Hi ginetto61,
> 
> I like your idea of adding a mains filter like the type you showed us. I've done some searching and I am planning to order these based on their superior filtering specs:
> 
> ...




Hi pakultra, 

Be aware when implementing filtering, when using a 12Amp filter, and you only draw 1Amp, or less, filtering wont be adequate. 

Search for version that suits the draw of your device. 


Regards, 

Alex


----------



## prot

rb2013 that's a cool filter, especially for the price. 

Anyone who knows a comparable EU device ?

I was looking at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mE-N1Ll6o8 but I find the €600 price exaggerated.


----------



## pakultra

prot said:


> @rb2013 that's a cool filter, especially for the price.
> 
> Anyone who knows a comparable EU device ?
> 
> I was looking at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mE-N1Ll6o8 but I find the €500 price exaggerated.


 
@prot
  
 I have a new pm for you. Please check. Thanks!


----------



## pakultra

@rb2013 Thank you for sharing that nice unit. It's so tempting. I almost bought it today after reading your post. But on second thought, I'd prefer isolated, individually filtered sockets to minimize possible interference between pc, dac, amp, etc. The Shaffner filters I was considering are also balanced filters. They have even higher attenuation (above 70dB). I am planning to get a metal case like that and put in 5 filters to cover all my audio related devices.


----------



## pakultra

Hi Alex, thanks for pointing out that 12A is too much for small DACs. I was planning to add that 12A one before my Blue Circle mains filter since all my audio devices are connected to that filter. Now after seeing rb2013's post, I've changed my mind. I will use a few smaller filters to filter each device individually


----------



## riffer

Me, I ordered one the yesterday. I really just wanted to be able to use the I2S input on my Audio-gd Master 7 for music so I could free up the USB input for my HDPC. Ordered the HDMI mod for the Master 7. Looks straightforward, except adjusting for the different pin definitions.


----------



## rb2013

pakultra said:


> @rb2013 Thank you for sharing that nice unit. It's so tempting. I almost bought it today after reading your post. But on second thought, I'd prefer isolated, individually filtered sockets to minimize possible interference between pc, dac, amp, etc. The Shaffner filters I was considering are also balanced filters. They have even higher attenuation (above 70dB). I am planning to get a metal case like that and put in 5 filters to cover all my audio related devices.


 

 Well I suppose if you were extremely worried about this kind of filtering you could add a Shaffner easily to the Art Pro - there is plenty of room inside.  The filter levels of 70 dB for the Shaffner is only a peak reading at very high frequency (300K) and it depends on the impedence levels (see the link data sheet charts).  At certain impedences the filtering is close to zero at 10K rises quickly to 60dB at approx 300K then falls off fairly steeply.
 http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/55203.pdf
  
 Since Art Pro offers this ground isolation RFI/EMI filtering and CMR, DMR I was thinking of using seperate ones on my DAC and another for the MXU8.  I would love to see what's under the hood on the Shaffners.  What I like about the Art Pro is the use of a discrete design - with several large baluns.  Also several large Carli Polypropylene film capacitors.  I also like the nice quality wiring inside the unit.  With a decent Power Chord to the MX-U8 a really nice improvement in SQ.
  
 On Baluns for filtering from this PS Audio Review:
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/psaudio3/power.html


> The Ultimate Outlet supposedly achieves all this with the help of a small donut-shaped iron core wrapped with heavy-gauge Litz wire called a Balun - balanced/unbalanced transformer. "When an AC signal comes into the balun's two wrappings of wire," the PS Audio website explains, "the balanced design cancels out anything in common to the two wires. Unlike series filters that only work on noise over a specified frequency range, a well-designed balun cancels all noise at _all_ frequencies. Yet, due to the small number of wire turns, it does not restrict power as a conventional power conditioner would."
> 
> 
> "The Ultimate's balun," it continues, "reduces common mode noise by up to 40dB, meaning that whatever noise is on the line will be reduced by over 100 times, and [it] also handles differential noise. This major cleaning effort takes place at virtually all frequencies, not only at the very high frequencies attended to by typical power filters or conditioners."


 
  
 BTW: Running three separate MX-U8's now - at various stages of mods.  One with the HW caps and another with the Nichicon Fine Golds.  So far prefering the FGs. They are taller and have to be mounted somewhat sideways.  They sound a little sweeter - both a nice improvement over the FCs.


----------



## Senn-Fi

I just received my U12 and am connecting from Mac Pro to PS Audio Directstream DAC...
  
 It works great with AES/EBU and sounds very good.
  
 When I tried I2S with HDMI, however, there is a brief amount of sound from the left channel and then it only plays out of the right channel.
  
 If I set JRiver to transcode to DSD over PCM (DoP), it works normally (and sounds great out of both channels).  Anyone else have a similar issue and/or solution?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Or you could just run one of these right before the U12 or MXU8 - I have and the results are excellent and reversible. And relativly cheap.  The Pro version with the Advanced Power Filtering should not be confused with the non-Pro version which will do line by line EMI/RFI filtering.
> The Advanced Power Filtering uses both Common Mode and Differential Mode filters, in addition to the EMI/RFI filters.
> From Blue Circle on Common Mode Rejection on their excellent and expensive $2,200 BC60X1:
> *ART PB4x4Pro Power Distribution System with Advanced Power Filtering:*
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable suggestion.
 Yes i guess some kind of mains filtering could be very beneficial (of course also better regulators like the ones used by Mr Pakultra, maybe even much more.  But i see this mod more difficult and for skilled people)
 Instead adding some kind of filter upstream the transformer i think i could do that 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 By the way* i have not completely understood what you are proposing.   **Is it a off-the-shelf product ?  is it a DIY project ?  do you have some links to this product ?*
 I am a little obsessed by toroids because i and a friend did some tests trying to build a line preamp.  We tested it with both a toroid and a EI x-former of the same voltage and power in the same power supply.
 Switching on/off the lights in the listening room was producing with the volume at medium level a loud pop in the speakers with the toroid, and much much less with the EI.   It was a clear evidence of the superior filtering of spikes of the EI type transformer.
 Unfortunately we did not think to try also a mains filter ... that could have been extremely interesting
 So if you could please provide some more links to parts and products i would be very grateful.
 Thanks again,   gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable suggestion.
> Yes i guess some kind of mains filtering could be very beneficial (of course also better regulators like the ones used by Mr Pakultra, maybe even much more.  But i see this mod more difficult and for skilled people)
> Instead adding some kind of filter upstream the transformer i think i could do that
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Gino,
  
 I also share your concern about the toroidal transformers.  I much prefer R-cores, like in my R2R Lite 60 modded DAC project (which has two separate ones - one for the tube gain stage and one for the digital section) - which much more immune to RFI/EMI.  The mechanical fitting of a new transformer into the small box with a Schaffner type filter is a major project - same for building a seperate PS box.
  
 The Art Pro - Pro PB 4X4 is a cheap, readily available turnkey solution.  Of course a super regulated linear PS directly to the clocks as Alex is building is optimal.  But that is a tremendous amount of work and risks damaging the unit (very hard to reverse).
  
 Now I suppose you could argue that leaves open to RFI/EMI the short power chord run between the Art Pro and the U12 or MXU8.  I would use a good power chord with decent shielding there (most of the better audiophile power chords have heavy shielding).  The Pro PB 4X4 will have filtered 99.99% of the noise and power grunge before that short run (liely very little added noise).  And as Blue Circle points out will prevent your own systems locally generated noise (DAC and USB Clocks for example) of feeding back to you pre-amp, amp or other electronics to create local noise.  I suppose you could find a very short power cable run say 1 foot - to keep possible antenna effects to a min.  But I would say that is bordering on paranoid.
  
 The Pro PB 4X4 also adds the benefit of surge protection.
  
 Here is the link to the Art Pro -Pro PB4x4 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/181487658681?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 $85 with free shipping.
  
 Here is DIY power chord link (explains RFI/EMI shielding):
 http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html
  
 This is a simple plug and play solution - that allows one to move on to improving other parts of their system.
  
 I have to say the sound quality with the FG caps in the MXU8 and the Pro PB4X4 is amazing compared to stock.  And I was already using a Monster power filter and a Richard Gray Pro 400.  My systems have never sounded better.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Well I suppose if you were extremely worried about this kind of filtering you could add a Shaffner easily to the Art Pro - there is plenty of room inside.  The filter levels of 70 dB for the Shaffner is only a peak reading at very high frequency (300K) and it depends on the impedence levels (see the link data sheet charts).  At certain impedences the filtering is close to zero at 10K rises quickly to 60dB at approx 300K then falls off fairly steeply.
> http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/55203.pdf
> 
> Since Art Pro offers this ground isolation RFI/EMI filtering and CMR, DMR I was thinking of using seperate ones on my DAC and another for the MXU8.  I would love to see what's under the hood on the Shaffners.  What I like about the Art Pro is the use of a discrete design - with several large baluns.  Also several large Carli Polypropylene film capacitors.  I also like the nice quality wiring inside the unit.  With a decent Power Chord to the MX-U8 a really nice improvement in SQ.
> ...


 
  
 Hi rb2013, welcome back!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Any progress on XO's?
 hgpsemaj send me small smd adapterboards which make soldering NDK's a lot easier!
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.4.SpfRsD&id=19734749250&ns=1&_u=t29sgvbrf20f&abbucket=6&utm_campaign=website&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email#detail
  
 I'm waiting for components to start modding MX-U8
  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Hi Gino,
> I also share your concern about the toroidal transformers.
> I much prefer R-cores, like in my R2R Lite 60 modded DAC project (which has two separate ones - one for the tube gain stage and one for the digital section) - which much more immune to RFI/EMI.


 
  
 Hi again ! yes it is what i learned reading here and there in tech sites.  They have many quality but they are not that good at filtering noise i am afraid.  Yes the R-core are much better at you know what ? this could be also a nice idea.
 I am sure that just replacing the transformer with a R-core could improve mains noise rejection.  I feel that the mains where i live are not very polluted but it depends on the moment of the day.
  


> The mechanical fitting of a new transformer into the small box with a Schaffner type filter is a major project - same for building a seperate PS box.


 
  
 I think that to put these filter in a separate box is also very smart ... and can serve more unit, the converter and the dac for instance. 
  
  


> The Art Pro - Pro PB 4X4 is a cheap, readily available turnkey solution.  Of course a super regulated linear PS directly to the clocks as Alex is building is optimal.  But that is a tremendous amount of work and risks damaging the unit (very hard to reverse).
> Now I suppose you could argue that leaves open to RFI/EMI the short power chord run between the Art Pro and the U12 or MXU8.  I would use a good power chord with decent shielding there (most of the better audiophile power chords have heavy shielding).  The Pro PB 4X4 will have filtered 99.99% of the noise and power grunge before that short run (liely very little added noise).
> And as Blue Circle points out will prevent your own systems locally generated noise (DAC and USB Clocks for example) of feeding back to you pre-amp, amp or other electronics to create local noise.  I suppose you could find a very short power cable run say 1 foot - to keep possible antenna effects to a min.  But I would say that is bordering on paranoid.
> The Pro PB 4X4 also adds the benefit of surge protection.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks but sadly no shipping to Norway. I am in Norway now.  When shipping is available from USA the products usually end at a double price (for cheap products i mean).
 Instead from HK or China often free shipping and no customs --- i do not know why ...
  


> Here is DIY power chord link (explains RFI/EMI shielding): http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html
> This is a simple plug and play solution - that allows one to move on to improving other parts of their system.
> *I have to say the sound quality with the FG caps in the MXU8 and the Pro PB4X4 is amazing compared to stock.  *
> And I was already using a Monster power filter and a Richard Gray Pro 400.  My systems have never sounded better.
> Good luck!


 
  
 Very interesting.  I think that at least the caps i will do for sure.  I have also a new desoldering gun never used.  It is time to solder something.  I have also a nice 2%Ag alloy ... low this alloy. I have never had a cold joint ... and i am a dog at soldering indeed. 
 If you happen to see something from China that could work similarly to the Art unit you mention i will buy it immediately. 
 Thanks again.
 Kindest regards,  gino   
  
 P.S.  there is _*a new thread specifically about the Melodious *_... i think you could post there the mods on your Melodious converter
 i jump from this thread to the other because i have both (actually i have also the old Gustard U10)
 My feeling is that the Melodious is a little better unit than the Gustard, but also more expensive.  
 A modded Gustard by the way could be superior to a stock Melodious ... but i do not know for sure.


----------



## prot

prot said:


> rb2013 that's a cool filter, especially for the price.
> 
> Anyone who knows a comparable EU device ?
> 
> I was looking at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mE-N1Ll6o8 but I find the €600 price exaggerated.




To answer my own Q, the ART devices are available in EU and for a very good price. Just have to work with IEC coonectors 
http://www.bax-shop.de/art-pb4x4-power-base-stromverteiler-und-stabilisator


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi rb2013, welcome back!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I'm still having issues getting the Crystek CCHD-957 to work in the MX-U8 - I have another U12 coming - I will try them there.
  
 Those boards are the ticket - it would be nice if NDK (or DIYINHK) and Crystek would just make a standard through the hole pin version - like all these Chinese TCXO clocks.  Then with a socket like I have it would be a simple matter of plug and play.  The Clocks would already be tested and ready to mount.
  
 Look at issues you had with shorting out the LME on the MX-U8 with the clock swap.  What a PIA.
  
 Maye one day they'll be like opamps with many swappable designs - and we can all easily clock roll!


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Or you could just run one of these right before the U12 or MXU8 - I have and the results are excellent and reversible. And relativly cheap.  The Pro version with the Advanced Power Filtering should not be confused with the non-Pro version which will do line by line EMI/RFI filtering.
> 
> The Advanced Power Filtering uses both Common Mode and Differential Mode filters, in addition to the EMI/RFI filters.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I use this one: Belkin PF50 (European version)
  

  
 This one has got different filters, 4 for digital equipment, 2 for analogue equipment(, 2 for video equipment, and 1 high power output
  
 It also has exceptional warranty, Belkin pays up to €400.000 for damage if PF50 fails when there's a power outage, or lichtning strike.
  
 It has very good filtercurves, sadly I don't know the Digital filter characteristics.
  
  
  

• High current socket (range 10 kHz-100 MHz) :
Attenuation Common Mode (CM) noise : -57 dB à 4,5 MHz.

• Audio Filter (range 10 kHz-100 MHz)
Attenuation Common Mode (CM) noise : – 22 dB à 95 kHz. / -71 dB à 4,9 MHz.

• Video Filter (range 10 kHz-100 MHz)
Attenuation Common Mode (CM) noise : -17 dB à 95 kHz. / -61 dB à 4,9 MHz.
 
 
 US version is called PF60
  



  
  
 They are often available on Ebay, but they are not cheap.
  
 I "heard" many other filters, but none came close to PF50 performance.
  
 If you can get one, buy it, you will be surprised!!
  
 Cheers,
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi again ! yes it is what i learned reading here and there in tech sites.  They have many quality but they are not that good at filtering noise i am afraid.  Yes the R-core are much better at you know what ? this could be also a nice idea.
> I am sure that just replacing the transformer with a R-core could improve mains noise rejection.  I feel that the mains where i live are not very polluted but it depends on the moment of the day.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Well with the different voltage and plug  the Art Pro - it wouldn't work there without a converter.
  
 I use a solder sucker- the best gismo made.  Couldn't live without it!
  
 I'm going to try the HWs in the Gustard and the Muratas in place of the Pulses.
  
 Also from my R2R Lite DAC60 mod project - I did another improvement last night to excellent effect.  And it only took a few minutes.  Swapped the SPDIF RCA input jack from the stock CRC (with brass - yuc!) to one of these: *ETI RCA Phonopod HC-XTC*,  female, pure oxygen free copper, 20mm, Gold Plated Tellurium Copper
  
The change was immediately noticeable, and nice improvement.
  
The Eichman ETI is designed especially for digital:


> The new Eichmann PhonoPod HC-XTC RCA female chassis socket is a low mass design with low inductive reactance for superior, extended bandwidth and more detailed, coherent sound. The PHonoPod HC-XTC uses 20 micron gold micro-plating over pure copper, resulting in better signal transfer, higher resolution, and our unique controlled 'skin-depth ratio' or SDR� for enhanced frequency/phase coherency. The PhonoPod also has the added advantage of being a true 75 Ohm impedance connection, making this an ideal connector for use in digital (SPDIF) or video applications


 
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/connectors_brand_eichmann.html
  
 Any deviation from the exact 75ohms can cause reflected back waves in the digital cable (should be the optimal 1.5 meter length as well to min).  These back waves cause havoc  and are one of the reasons SPDIF Coax has a bad reputation.  But when done right the results are extraordinary.
  
 As the ETI's are sold as pr - I have an extra I will put into the Gustard as well.  That's an easy swap.
  
 The MX-U8 uses a SPDIF RCA as the U12 - also brass.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> I use this one: Belkin PF50 (European version)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Alex,
  
 That's a beautiful unit!  Several years ago I was power filtering crazy - went through 5 different ones.  From a PS Audio regenerator - all the way up to a Nordost Thor. The Thor using a unique star grounding system and Valhalla wiring ($3,300)- and Nordost Valhalla PCs ($2K each).  And they made a difference - but at what cost!  But after a while I noticed the differences where just that - not necessarily improvements.  These power conditioner seemed to rob some of the dynamics so I sold them all after trying a pr of Richard Grays Pro 400s.
  
 I still have the Richard Grays.  They seem to add a bit of dynamics and no coloration.  They are different and act as a power 'flywheel'.  Smoothing out the PS voltage fluctuations.  I had a Monster 7000 at one point which had a digital volt readout - I was amazed at how much the voltage would change - even in realtime!
  
 http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/rgcp-400pro-power-conditioner-mini-review-part-i.111822/
  
 But now with all this latest digital equipment I have begun to re-explore this path.  But do not want to spend the big bucks - as I think you reach a point of minimal returns at a certain point.  $80 - $100 seems reasonable to me.
  
 But if I won the lottery here would be a few I would try:
*BC6000 and BC6000 X1e Music and Audio Professional Power Line Conditioners​* http://www.bluecircle.com/page156.html
  
*Isotek EVO Titan*
 http://www.thecableco.com/Product/GII-Titan
  
*Audience Adept Response aR6*
 http://www.thecableco.com/Product/Adept-Response-aR6
  
 Oh to be rich!


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Well with the different voltage and plug  the Art Pro - it wouldn't work there without a converter.


 
  
 Hi well a step down 230AC to 115AC converter is not a big issue.  Unfortunately shipping and custom duties are.  This is very sad because i see exceptional bargain on USA.
 Especially for industrial equipment that can be used very well also for audio i guess.
 Another idea is to bypass PS big caps with a small film cap ... maybe will improve HF noise rejection ?  maybe ... 
  


> I use a solder sucker- the best gismo made.  Couldn't live without it!


 
 i much prefer a good desoldering pump ... i tried the solder sucker tape but i found more tricky ... problem is that good pumps are expensive ... 
  


> I'm going to try the HWs in the Gustard and the Muratas in place of the Pulses.


 
  
 here i am lost ... but i am intrigued by chokes ... but i have no clue how to use them at all 
  


> Also from my R2R
> Also from my R2R Lite DAC60 mod project - I did another improvement last night to excellent effect.  And it only took a few minutes.
> Swapped the SPDIF RCA input jack from the stock CRC (with brass - yuc!) to one of these: *ETI RCA Phonopod HC-XTC*,  female, pure oxygen free copper, 20mm, Gold Plated Tellurium Copper
> The change was immediately noticeable, and nice improvement.
> ...


 
  
 Connectors are often overlooked and instead are very important.   Rcas in particular.  And good ones cost accordingly. 
 i am using the AES/EBU digital out with Canare digital cable, star quad. They are a pro standard 110 ohm xlr connectors.   I think i will stick with this cable. 
 Thanks again, gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi well a step down 230AC to 115AC converter is not a big issue.  Unfortunately shipping and custom duties are.  This is very sad because i see exceptional bargain on USA.
> Especially for industrial equipment that can be used very well also for audio i guess.
> Another idea is to bypass PS big caps with a small film cap ... maybe will improve HF noise rejection ?  maybe ...
> 
> ...


 

 Well I tried the solder tape - I hate it.  No this is a little handheld pump that uses vacuum to suck the solder up.  The best ones have a narrow profile that makes getting into tight spots easier.
  
 On the Nichicon 'lytic cap swap on the U12 or the MXU8 couldn't be easier - getting the Nichicon Fine Golds in there was a little tricky do to height - had use a little Teflon tubing to shield the exposed leads.  The Muratas are a drop in replacement for the Pulses - just get the through the hole version - not SMD. 
  
 With the AES the impedance matching is the same issue just 110 ohm vs 75 Ohm - so you want a very good connector - as well as cable.  Not sure about the impedance issue with HDMI or I2S - I don't think those matter much.
  
 Good Luck!


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Well I tried the solder tape - I hate it.  No this is a little handheld pump that uses vacuum to suck the solder up.  The best ones have a narrow profile that makes getting into tight spots easier.


 
 Hi again. Then i do not know it.
 I agree that the best electric pump cost a lot indeed.  Much much more than a soldering station. 
 But when they work they are fantastic ... just put the tip on the joint and when it melts push the button ... even a heavy hand like mine can do that.
  


> On the Nichicon 'lytic cap swap on the U12 or the MXU8 couldn't be easier - getting the Nichicon Fine Golds in there was a little tricky do to height - had use a little Teflon tubing to shield the exposed leads.
> The Muratas are a drop in replacement for the Pulses - just get the through the hole version - not SMD.
> With the AES the impedance matching is the same issue just 110 ohm vs 75 Ohm - so you want a very good connector - as well as cable.  Not sure about the impedance issue with HDMI or I2S - I don't think those matter much.
> Good Luck!


 
 Thanks again for the advice.  I will do the caps swap at least.  I do not know if bypassing them could give some benefits.  But surely better caps are always an improvement ... less noise more dynamic ... 
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## pakultra

> I do not know if bypassing them could give some benefits.  But surely better caps are always an improvement ... less noise more dynamic ...


 
 Hi ginetto61, you are absolutely right about bypassing those big caps with small caps. But in the case of Gustard U12, don't worry about it. It is already done by default. C27 is that bypassing cap. It's not a film cap, but it should do.
  
 Regarding a good power filters, this one is available in Germany, it looks very nice and neat (470,00€ ): 




  
 With impressive filtering specs:
  
 50Ohm/50Ohm symmetrisch

 I
10kHz100kHz1MHz10MHz *1A*
 24
 >80
 >80
 55
 *3A*
 20
 62
 80
 53
 *6A*
 18
 62
 80
 53

  
 http://www.thel-audioworld.de/bauteile/filter/Filter.htm
  
 I will probably build one like this for myself, but I will need to check out Belkin PF60 first.
  
 Regards
  
 pakultra


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> I use this one: Belkin PF50 (European version)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's a very nice one but unfortunately the EU version seems to be out of stock everywhere .. do you happen to know a shop that still sells it?

pakultra
Thx, that's an interesting one too but 5 sockets are not enough for my whole setup and it's kinda expensive. That belkin would be just perfect, especially since it also filters network, tv, etc


----------



## abartels

Hi Proy, 

Unfortunately PF50 is not available anymore, keep searching second hand, i had one of the last UK versions, had to replace outlets,,,,, 

Regards, 

Alex


----------



## ginetto61

Hi Guys !  thanks a lot indeed for the always helpful advice
 Impressive units indeed.  I am quite sure they would be beneficial in a normal home context and industrial area.
 I do not know why but* i would go for a passive unit *like the Thel one that should cost also less.
 I think that especially the Gustard U12 could benefit ( i think the dac is better filtered already, it is a pro unit from Apogee)
 I need time to study these latest replies.
  
 Changing a little subject ... could *an isolation transformer *be beneficial ? have you ever tried one ?
 This is very easy to connect even for me ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



*a 100 VA thing *before the Gustard and maybe also the dac ?
 The very basic idea could be to place it before a power strip with just two power sockets,
 one for U12 and one for the dac. Nothing else attached.
 Here i can found nice schuko power strip for nothing.
 The price should be very similar to the one of a cheap mains filter
 I see this as not a very popular solution by the way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thanks a lot again.
 Have a nice Sunday !
 gino


----------



## seeteeyou

This $249 USB to I2S board from Sonore / Audiobyte looked strikingly similar to Tanly Audio:
  
 TI ISO7640FM
 Crystek CCHD-957
 SPARTAN-6 XC6SLX9
  




  




  
 http://www.rendu.sonore.us/Sonore_Audiobyte_USB_Drivers.zip
 http://www.rendu.sonore.us/Sonore-USB-1000a.png
 http://www.rendu.sonore.us/Sonore-USB.png
  
 The Sonore DIY USB Interface is a high performance DXD/DSD128 capable asynchronous USB interface designed for DACs using the ESS Sabre chip. The asynchronous USB receiver is powered from USB allowing for complete isolation of the oscillators, re-clocking and oversampling/filtering (including ground) from the source.  Crystek CCHD series ultra low phase noise clocks are used for the lowest possible jitter. On the "clean" side of the board, the Crystek oscillators (45.1584/49.152 MHz), the FPGA running the oversampling filter (OSF) and the re-clocking circuit, are powered from a user provided ~5 VDC source. 
 A unique feature of this interface is the (optional) onboard OSF.  This filter oversamples to 352.8/384, using specially developed proprietary digital filters.  The filter design takes advantage of the high power available in the FPGA to incorporate a sophisticated partial minimum phase filter, which greatly reduces pre-ringing, while still providing excellent stop band rejection (anti aliasing).
  
 The USB Interface can also be used with other I2S/DSD DACs.
  
 http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=127689.0
 http://www.rendu.sonore.us/USB.html
  
 As usual we could replace Crystek with a pair of NDK from DIYINHK.
  
  
 They're also pretty much the same as Hydra Z from Audiobyte, someone was able to mod it by adding two dozens of supercapacitors as shown below
  
 http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=180&t=3814233&p=126#56002314
  
 Those supercapacitors are also found inside "Hu90 TeeTee" and it's like 5 bucks a piece from Chinese sellers on Tao Bao
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=39537691794
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=40880039805
 http://www.mouser.com/new/powerstor/cooperPHBcaps/
 http://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/PowerStorPHBdatasheet.pdf
 https://octopart.com/phb-5r0v505-r-cooper+bussmann-20698242
 https://octopart.com/phb-5r0h505-r-cooper+bussmann-22061440
 http://www.digikey.com/product-highlights/us/en/eaton-phb-supercapacitors/1334
 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/PowerStor-Eaton/PHB-5R0H505-R/?qs=e7A2guvi5TCELaG7kj9Ceg%3D%3D
 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bussmann-Eaton/PHB-5R0V505-R/?qs=e7A2guvi5TCrE7PWGov4pw%3D%3D
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Original-powerstor-phb-5v-5-0f-5f-farad-capacitor-super-capacitor-5f5v/32210956564.html
 http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electronics/Resources/product-datasheets/bus-elx-ds-4402-phb-series.pdf
 http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/bussmann/electronics/products/powerstor_supercapacitors/cylindrical/phb-series.html
  
 In addition to 5V5F ones as mentioned above, they're also selling 5V10F as well as 5V17F versions
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=40967578223
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=40967666552
 http://www.aliexpress.com/store/1359823
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Specials-Original-farad-capacitor-5V17F-PowerStor-PHB-5v17f-ultracapacitor-5-5v17f/32265833461.html
 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-and-original-in-original-boxes-super-farad-capacitor-Cooper-PowerStor-5V10F-P1635-5R0106-2/32266532523.html
  
  
 Basically we could feed 5V power to Sonore / Audiobyte with 18650 batteries like this while throwing those supercapacitors into the mix
  
 http://ppaproduct.blogspot.com/2014/07/dual-rails-battery-psu.html
  
 Of course we've gotta find another source for a great battery PSU first, any suggestions?


----------



## auvgeek

@seeteeyou That seems like a great DIY option. Too bad it doesn't have AES output (as far as I can tell, anyway). I'd be very interested in trying to build one if it did...


----------



## ccschua

can I know where to get a updated tanly audio usb with spdif output ?


----------



## ginetto61

auvgeek said:


> @seeteeyou That seems like a great DIY option. *Too bad it doesn't have AES output *(as far as I can tell, anyway). I'd be very interested in trying to build one if it did...


 
  
 Hi and i am in the same boat.  Now that i experienced the AES connection i am sold on this standard.   It just seems to sound better ... more relaxed while keeping a very nice detail. 
 I have also found an extremely cheap but good cable from Canare this one here
  
http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=67
  
 i have been advised to try it also for balanced analog and it is what i am going to do as soon as another pair will arrive. 
 Great connection the AES/EBU and i do not understand why is no more popular. Pro units aside ... of course. 
 Thanks,  gino


----------



## rb2013

There are many of these Monster 7000's around - some for under $300.  I did have one  - wasn't my cup of tea - but might work for others.


----------



## SodaBoy

Interesting article on the Belkin PF60:
  
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/02/measurements-belkin-pureav-pf60-power.html


----------



## abartels

sodaboy said:


> Interesting article on the Belkin PF60:
> 
> http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2014/02/measurements-belkin-pureav-pf60-power.html


 
  
 I would say, grab some of Ebay, they go for about $200 once in a while, and compare sq.
  
 I have Schaffner filters (1A) in both my pre-amp and dac, and both devices sounding better when connected to PF50
 Even my mosfet power-amp sounds better when connected to high-current output on PF50, no decrease in dynamics!
  
 But, I suppose it is heavily dependent on your home situation, if you have relative clean power, you would definitely have less increase in sq.
 I live in an appartment complex where power is dirty. In my case it does a very good job, not to say it is my best investment ever,,,,
  
 Also it is very convenient that this device has dipswitches at the back where you can set delay for all the banks (5 for PF50 and 6 for PF60).
 With those delay settings I can power on all source devices BEFORE powering on power-amp, and, power off power-amp before powering off source components.
  
 My server 2012R2 ControlPC doesn't power off, you can set this per bank.
  
  
 Not trying to get you guys buying a powerfilter, it's just that my set indeed does benefit a lot from this unit, and so does a friend of mine which bought the same device.
  
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Alex


----------



## ginetto61

Hi just to add my usual trivial thought 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 i think that the bigger effort should be done to get a very clean source signal.
 This signal is the end what will be amplified by the following amp stages. Trivial i know ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 IMH experience if the source is very good almost any decent amp/speakers combination can sound at least satisfying.
 Just an example.
 I had a bad sounding cd player.   After substituting other components just out of curiosity i put a plastic turntable with a cheap Nad phono stage in place of the cd player.
 I was amazed how much more musical the whole system was sounding ... i am sincere.
 So the real problem impacting the whole performance was not the system but the source.
 These days i am committed to get a "musical" digital sound out of wav files using a pc.
 I can tell you that this is not that easy at all.   Just a detail can ruin the whole picture.
 In my opinion the usb to spdif converters can be key units to build up a nice sounding system with almost any pcs.
 If the spdif signal out of them is good quality than any decent dac will do the rest.  And even cheap decent dacs can be found.
  
 Speaking of the U12 i think i have solved the usb port issue with an external usb power supply in a decent way.
 Now i have still some issues open:
  
 1)   usb cable quality (i could have jitter in the usb transmission)
 2)   filtering of the mains entering the U12.
  
 Regarding point 1) i am trying different solution for the usb cable (for instance taking out ferrites could improve the sound).
  
 Regarding point 2) after a lot of thinking, given that, as someone rightly has pointed out, the current drawn by the U12 is very very little (around 0.1 A max ?)  *i  would really like to try the " chokes " solution, *because the common EMI filters are specified for much higher currents and could not be that effective with smaller currents (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)
  
 I see many cheap chokes on ebay but i have no clue of:
 1)   which model to buy
 2)   how to connect it to get a nice mains noise filtering upstream the toroidal.
  
 I see chokes used often also in dvd player and other digital players.
 Could someone direct me to some pages explaining how to wire these chokes ?
 Thanks a lot indeed for all the very very interesting disclosing of tech advice.
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## rb2013

More information on power filters:
  
 This relates to the circuit protection feature:
 http://audioshark.org/archive/t-1572.html


> The least offensive surg protectors seem to be the ones that use (i think this is what it's called) MOV technology.
> 
> Here some info on MOV.....
> 
> ...


 
 Now these M.O.V (Varistor) are the circular shaped devices colored yellow, red or blue you see on the circuit boards of these power filters.  They do degrade over time, as they are exposed to power spikes.  So the power filter/circuit breaker or the MOV's should be changed out every few years to maintain their proper functioning.
  
 In the simpler design of the Art Pro Pro PB 4x4 really no big deal - on these more complex units a bigger project. Also you may want to avoid buying units that are more then a few years old and have had steady use.
  
 More info on MOVs from Audience Adept Response:


> Of the power conditioning products on the market today few allow your playback system to attain full dynamic range or reproduce subtle dynamic contrasts accurately. The other culprit afflicting most power conditioning products is the ubiquitous MOV. (Metal Oxide Varistor) The MOV is a sacrificial device. This means it wears down over time until it fails completely. Its purpose is to clamp high voltage transients safely to ground instead of through your equipment. This would be fine if it didn’t break down and behave like the world's worst capacitor across your power line, storing energy and releasing it as performance robbing, time delayed distortion into your audio system. The effect is quite audible. For surge protection the Adept Response employs a non-wearing type high voltage transient suppression.
> 
> Adept Response uses only the finest conducting, filtering and transient suppression components. Even the power switch is exceptional, a very high quality magnetic circuit breaker. The advantage over thermal circuit breakers is that thermal breakers increase in resistance as power demand increases, causing heat dependent, resistive modulation of the incoming voltage. This effectively reduces the power available to your equipment just when you need it most. The design employed in the Adept Response provides for the most natural flow of music.


 
  
 Would love to see what's under those Schaffner silver covers.  Hopefully no MOVs just Baluns. 
  
 PS I wouldn't and don't use any of these kind of power conditioners with equipment that draws high current - like my class A SS amps.  Especially a dynamic or transient load.  For those I use the RGPC's.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi just to add my usual trivial thought
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Funny you mention chokes - that is what the Richard Gray Pro 400's are - massive chokes!  Each unit weighs 20 lbs and has over 1000 feet of wire surrounding its core.
  
 The importance of this choke filtering has several aspects:


> Q – HOW DOES THE RGPC DUAL SURGE SUPPRESSION SYSTEM WORK?
> 
> Answer
> • The RGPC giant “choke” (weighs 20 lbs and has over 1000 feet of wire surrounding its core) is the first line of defense.
> ...


 
 So this massive choke acts as a filter and protection of the MOV inside.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Funny you mention chokes - that is what the Richard Gray Pro 400's are - massive chokes!  Each unit weighs 20 lbs and has over 1000 feet of wire surrounding its core.
> The importance of this choke filtering has several aspects:
> So this massive choke acts as a filter and protection of the MOV inside.


 
  
 Hi and thanks again for the very interesting information. You have given material to study for the weekend 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Actually i was thinking to something more like this .... something tiny
  

  
 given that the current is very low they should work ok.  But i need a part and a working schematic.
 I will look for it.  Maybe in some datasheet there are application notes ?
 Thanks again,   gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks again for the very interesting information. You have given material to study for the weekend
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I would contact John Tucker over at Exemplar Audio - he is genius when it comes to using internal choke PS filters.  He mods audio gear - once did an amazing job on a Denon 5910 SACD player for me - used something like four internal shunts and chokes as well as a bunch of other mods.  You could ask him - really nice fellow.
  
 Check out his tubed Oppo 105 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.exemplaraudio.com/digitalplayertub.html
  
 Good Luck!


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> I would contact John Tucker over at Exemplar Audio - he is genius when it comes to using internal choke PS filters.  He mods audio gear - once did an amazing job on a Denon 5910 SACD player for me - used something like four internal shunts and chokes as well as a bunch of other mods.  You could ask him - really nice fellow.
> 
> Check out his tubed Oppo 105
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks for the suggestion.  Yes the Oppo must be fantastic. I read that even in stock form is already great.
 But when i will be done one day with my job i have promised myself to study more the subject.  I would like to start from cheap units/kits and squeeze some drops of better sound out of them with simple mods. 
 I have the feeling that some cheap products have an enormous potential.   And i am now obsessed with these usb to spdif converter.
 I would buy also the Tanly that seems ready without need of any mods if i could understand the site (Chinese is not my language and i guess the Taobao site is mainly for Chinese customers, sadly).
 Regards,  gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks for the suggestion.  Yes the Oppo must be fantastic. I read that even in stock form is already great.
> But when i will be done one day with my job i have promised myself to study more the subject.  I would like to start from cheap units/kits and squeeze some drops of better sound out of them with simple mods.
> I have the feeling that some cheap products have an enormous potential.   And i am now obsessed with these usb to spdif converter.
> I would buy also the Tanly that seems ready without need of any mods if i could understand the site (Chinese is not my language and i guess the Taobao site is mainly for Chinese customers, sadly).
> Regards,  gino


 

 I have had tremendous success with my extensive R2R DAC Mod Project.  Way beyond my expectations - really rivaling my APL DAC that cost 4X as much and some ways it's better.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project.
  
 Yes the Tanly intrigues me as well - but won't buy it without some kind of guarantee (this 7 day thing doesn't cut it).  Not after my experiences with the Melodious MX-U8.
 Modding is a really fun hobby and is not that difficult if you're just up grading components.  When it comes to actually changing the circuits - well that's another matter.  I trust the professional audio engineers who designed the unit to do that.  This second guessing of their designs is not for me. 
  
 I understand their use of medium quality parts for profitability - so there can be better SQ with the best ones swapped in.  Certainly caps - especially film caps.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> I have had tremendous success with my extensive R2R DAC Mod Project.  Way beyond my expectations - really rivaling my APL DAC that cost 4X as much and some ways it's better.
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project.
> Yes the Tanly intrigues me as well - but won't buy it without some kind of guarantee (this 7 day thing doesn't cut it).  Not after my experiences with the Melodious MX-U8.
> Modding is a really fun hobby and is not that difficult if you're just up grading components.  When it comes to actually changing the circuits - well that's another matter.  I trust the professional audio engineers who designed the unit to do that.  This second guessing of their designs is not for me.
> I understand their use of medium quality parts for profitability - so there can be better SQ with the best ones swapped in.  Certainly caps - especially film caps.


 
  
 For now my main goal is to get a nice AES signal out of the pc.  I have 3 dacs that have this input and i would like to try them in the best conditions befor go hunting for something else. 
 I will read your thread. But i need time .. Thanks again,  gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> For now my main goal is to get a nice AES signal out of the pc.  I have 3 dacs that have this input and i would like to try them in the best conditions befor go hunting for something else.
> I will read your thread. But i need time .. Thanks again,  gino


 

 Well when you get time as my thread goes into detail on the issues with modern Delta-Sigma and Multibit DAC chip designs.  The 'old school' resistor ladder or R2R may still be the best DAC design when all is said and done.  Much has been written on the PCM 1704K DAC chips and they're still being used to great effect - see the Audio-gd Ref 10.32 DAC.
  
 Do your DACs handle I2S - as that may be a better digital signal transfer method.  Both SPDIF (RCA and AES) specifications have some issues (impedance matching being very important). 
  
 Did the issue on these XMOS based interfaces (Gustard, Melodious and Tanly) of channel swapping on the HDMI/RJ45 outputs ever get resolved?


----------



## prot

Interesting USB noise measurements
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2015/05/measurements-corning-usb-3-optical.html


----------



## ginetto61

You know what ? I really wonder how an U12 could sound with something like this 
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/115V-230V-30W-R-Core-Transformer-9V-9V-for-Headphon-amp-preamp-/291473766433?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43dd30b821
  

  
 in the place of the stock one ...
  

  
 maybe just that R-core would be the ticket for really good sound.  
 It would stop a lot of the noise in the mains.  The usb port can be isolated in some way.
 I would be really curious but i should buy another case ... i am thinking seriously to go on with the buy.
  
 Instead i bought this ... by instinct ... 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/261491990376
  

  
 9V+9V/30VA ... now the problem will be to fit it in the small U12 box ... 
 but it should have separation between primary and secondary windings ... that is the kind of transformer that i would like to see in place of those **** of toroidals 
 I had to try something 
 Regards,  gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

> 9V+9V/30VA ... now the problem will be to fit it in the small U12 box ...
> but it should have separation between primary and secondary windings ... that is the kind of transformer that i would like to see in place of those **** of toroidals
> I had to try something
> Regards,  gino


 
 Gino, I am interested to know how you have come to the conclusion that toroidal power supplies are so bad? I mean you can find them in gear costing tens of thousands of dollars. How on earth can they be such a problem if designers of cost is no object gear still use them? I'm not at all trying to attack you as you seem like a very nice and always polite poster here, but I'm not sure where the evidence for this dislike comes from? I'm no expert at all so perhaps there is evidence that they actually sound worse (not measure worse, I don't care about measurements that I can't hear).


----------



## korn-fi

ccschua said:


> can I know where to get a updated tanly audio usb with spdif output ?


 
 you can visit http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?_u=2qet21bd67b&id=40193288881


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> Gino, I am interested to know how you have come to *the conclusion that toroidal power supplies are so bad?*
> I mean you can find them in gear costing tens of thousands of dollars. How on earth can they be such a problem if designers of cost is no object gear still use them? I'm not at all trying to attack you as you seem like a very nice and always polite poster here, but I'm not sure where the evidence for this dislike comes from? I'm no expert at all so perhaps there is evidence that they actually sound worse (not measure worse, I don't care about measurements that I can't hear).


 
  
 Hi let me explain a little the rationale behind my suspicion about the use of toroidals for digital equipment power supplies  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Usually when i am selecting a specific unit like a usb to spdif converter just out of curiosity* i always look at the best ones in class, just to get an inea of their construction.*
 sadly their price is also high end and usually out of my budget.
 From what i understand one of the very best in class is the* Berkeley Audio Alpha converter *here under depicted
  
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/attachments/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/9188d1385951024-15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-berkeley.jpg
  
 if you look at its power supply you'll see that the designer has selected another type of transformer.
 Without even thinking that would be my 1st choice for the voltage transformer.
 Then i also had a look at their dacs, equally top class ... again no toroidals.
  
http://www.hifishock.org/galleries/electronics/berkeley-audio-design/source/dac/alpha-dac-1-berkeley-audio-design.jpg
  
 i am quite sure that that kind of transformer can make filtering of mains noise less critical.
 I cannot say for RF noise because i have no scope, but in a very rudimental experiment the spikes in the mains passes through toroidals in a spectacular way.  No filtering at all.
 A EI in the same position had a much much better suppression of these spikes (i.e. switching on/off of the lights in the listening room caused a loud noise through the speakers with the toroidals and much much less with an EI type transformer)
 Both the x-former used in the converter and the EI type share the separation between primary and secondary windings,
 I am not an expert but i think that measuring some kind of bandwidth the toroidals have a much wider bandwidth than EI type.
 I read once that the toroidal construction could be interesting for output x-fomer in tube amps because of this.  They let everything through.
 Again i cannot say if the RFI suppression is of the same level, but i would tend to think so.  I agree that if you have some kind of filter in front of the toroidal the final effect will be similar.
 I will try a cheap RFI/EMI filter as soon as i will receive it.
 If i had the money to spend i would buy immediately the converter above mentioned, confident to get one of the very best in class.
  
 I also read other two interesting points in a review.
 1)   the designer of the unit, clearly a gifted one, *recommends the use of AES/EBU connection with the dac*.  Needless to say that since then i am sold on this kind of connection and my ears say that it is indeed really musical. The sound seems more relaxed than with spdif while keeping all the detail
 2)   during the review different pc sources were used to drive the converter, from very cheap ones to very expensive ones.   Even with cheap ones the sound was quite phenomenal, like it should with a very well design converter.  It should stop the garbage in, use the signal and ouptut a very high quality digital spdif or AES to the dac.  If a converter performance depends heavily from what is before is not a very good converter.
  
 But you are right.  The toroidals can be equally good.  They will just ask for some more attention in the mains noise suppression department.
 Like using a filter to supply the converter for instance.  But i am honestly confused by the huge offer of different devices.  I am quite lost.
 To end i always look at the very best in class to try to understand what makes them the best.
 Like in the Formula one when mechanics of other teams peep inside the box of the best performing cars to steal some technical solution.
 Unfortunately my eye is technically quite blind.
 Regards, gino
  
*POST SCRIPTUM*
  
 actually thinking a little more and "stealing" this picture of the power supply in the very nice Tanly converter ...
  
http://gd4.alicdn.com/imgextra/i4/888047659/TB2xo9maVXXXXafXpXXXXXXXXXX-888047659.jpg
  
 i can spot *a choke and some caps after the mains socket upstream the toroidal*.
 Instead i remember the 1st version using a R-core transformer.
 However ... given that the unit in question is said to be excellently sounding i have decided to take the external filter way.
 I will look seriously at some DIY project for a passive main filter ... very simple .. just some chokes and caps and keep the U12 untouched.
 But i am sure some kind of additional filtering for the stock unit will be beneficial.  I prefer the Tanly PS for this aspect.
 It is true that also high end units use toroidals, but they have all some kind of additional mains filtering in front of it (or maybe after ?)
 Thanks a lot again for the very useful advice.


----------



## stuartmc

"actually thinking a little more and "stealing" this picture of the power supply in the very nice Tanly converter ...

http://gd4.alicdn.com/imgextra/i4/888047659/TB2xo9maVXXXXafXpXXXXXXXXXX-888047659.jpg

i can spot a choke and some caps after the mains socket upstream the toroidal.
Instead i remember the 1st version using a R-core transformer.
However ... given that the unit in question is said to be excellently sounding i have decided to take the external filter way."

I can certainly vouch for the excellent sound of the current Tanly. It's impossible for me to determine which of the ingredients makes the biggest improvement - power supply, crysteks, or buffer, but the total package is eargasm worthy. I have over 100 hours of play time on it now and it has retained every bit of the dynamic energy and transparency while losing that last little touch of treble grain. 

I would love to get my hands on the Berkeley for a head to head. From what I've read of the Berkeley's sound signature, the Tanly could very well be its more affordable twin.


----------



## ginetto61

stuartmc said:


> I can certainly vouch for the excellent sound of the current Tanly. It's impossible for me to determine which of the ingredients makes the biggest improvement - power supply, crysteks, or buffer, but the total package is eargasm worthy.


 
  
 Hi so it is really good indeed.  Which version do you have ? the one depicted in the last link attached or the previous one with R-core transformer ?
  


> I have over 100 hours of play time on it now and it has retained every bit of the dynamic energy and transparency while losing that last little touch of treble grain.
> I would love to get my hands on the Berkeley for a head to head. From what I've read of the Berkeley's sound signature, the Tanly could very well be its more affordable twin.


 
  
 Some reviewers have rated the Berkeley converter as maybe the best on the planet.
  
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/berkeley-audio-design-alpha-usb-interface/
  


> *Conclusion*
> The Berkeley Audio Design Alpha USB is a breakthrough product that not only overcomes the limitations of the USB interface, but provides a state-of-the-art method of getting audio out of a computer  ...  I listened to this digital front end as a source for electronics and loudspeakers that together cost more than $400k, yet never felt that the digital source was the weak link in the chain. In fact, I had the opposite reaction: *This source allowed me to hear these ultra-exotic electronics and loudspeakers at their best.* One day computer-based music systems will be simple to set up, foolproof, ubiquitous, and uncompromised in sound quality.
> *The Berkeley Alpha USB represents a giant leap forward in realizing this goal.*


 
*Price:* $1895
  
 Another interesting review here ...  http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/
  


> Sound wise – this is by far the best sounding USB/SPDIF converter I tried, better than the dCS Scarlatti transport. The other top converters were very, very good, but still not perfect.... BADA pulls this incredible trick of sounding both more resolute, more transparent, and much smoother at the same time.  To me *Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha USB defines the current state of the art in USB/SPDIF converters design*.


 
 this is actually a characteristic of the very very good digital ... extreme detail, extreme resolution and yet a feeling of relaxed sound, like ... ok .. the very best analog.  I said that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Needeless to say that what the designer of this wonder states in the interview for me is truth. Like the superiority on principle of AES connection vs. Sdif and optical between other things.
 And also the technical solutions/components used inside this converter are automatically good ... because they work exceptionally well together.
  
 However ... if the Tanly's sound is comparable well ... let's say that considering how much more affordable is its price it would be an unbelievable achievement.
 The nice thing with these converters is that ANY dac around will be pushed to its limits. Delta sigma or multibit ... in this way anyone will be able to pick up what he likes more.
 They will be able to extract the best from anything, from the cheap one to the best one.
 Thanks again for the info.
 gino


----------



## abartels

stuartmc said:


> "actually thinking a little more and "stealing" this picture of the power supply in the very nice Tanly converter ...
> 
> http://gd4.alicdn.com/imgextra/i4/888047659/TB2xo9maVXXXXafXpXXXXXXXXXX-888047659.jpg
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Stuart,
  
 Nice pic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Can you please tell me what kind of diodes are used? Are those Cree's?
  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## stuartmc

> Hi so it is really good indeed.  Which version do you have ? the one depicted in the last link attached or the previous one with R-core transformer ?


 
 I have the latest version with the Talema transformer and additional small capacitors on the main board.
  


> Some reviewers have rated the Berkeley converter as maybe the best on the planet.


 
 I had read those same reviews and was struck by the similarities. I took particular note of the design comments made in the computer audiophile review.  He points out the rather extraordinary efforts made in the Berkely to separate the dirty side  (usb input and Xmos chip) from the clean side (clocks and outputs).   The Berkely physically separates these sides and has an interesting isolator chip between the sides which he believes is an Adum chip with a ferrite gate over it.

  
 He also points out that the usb input is mounted on plastic to avoid capacitive coupling with the metal case:
  

  
 If you look at the Tanly, you will see very much of the same. In fact, I believe it was this dirty/clean design principal that led Tam at Tanly to mount the usb input on the front of the unit.  The two sections are completely separated on the pcb and the Tanly has two buffer chips over the I2S traces connecting the two sides vs. the one that Berkeley uses. The chips are a TI IS07240H which is a digital isolator exactly equivalent to the Adum chip referred to in the Computer Audiophile article - "_*The ADuM chips are digital isolators based on the Analog Devices, Inc., iCoupler® technology. Combining high speed CMOS and monolithic transformer technologies, these isolation components provide outstanding performance characteristics superior to alternatives, such as optocouplers."_  
  

  
 Now look at the usb input. When the board is fit into the case, there is a black plastic sleeve that isolates it from the surrounding case surface.  This accomplishes the same thing as the Berkeley unit, but I think much more elegantly.
  

  
  
 The mounting of the usb on the front turns out to be "form following function" rather than just some quirky design aesthetic of the engineer.  The chosen set up actually does give the greatest physical separation of the dirty and clean sides.  Take these design similarities, couple them with the listening impressions noted in The Absolute Sound and Computer Audiophile, and I think it is not unreasonable to call the Tanly an affordable near twin of the Berkeley. One major difference I see is the Tanly's inclusion of the Xilinx Spartan-6 FPGA.  Tanly is using it for data formation and jitter reduction. I don't see anything similar in the Berkeley pictures. This may be the reason the Tanly has two digital isolator chips separating the dirty and clean sides. It appears that the FPGA chip is being fed two separate channels from the XMOS.
  


> Can you please tell me what kind of diodes are used? Are those Cree's?
> Regards,
> Alex


 
  
  
 Yes, they are indeed Cree diodes.


----------



## rurika

Thumb up for Stuartmc.
  
 The reason that I bought The Tanly was as you described. Audiobyte Hydra-Z also use Xilinx Spartan but it was use Amanero not XMOS.
 Also The Hydra-Z is around $835 shipped but The Tanly is $560 shipped.
  
 Anyway, I'm still think the U12 is the bang for the buck if you can find a used unit.
  
 PS. The Tanly doesn't come with thesycon driver package but it is very easy to find some and use them.


----------



## auvgeek

rurika said:


> Thumb up for Stuartmc.
> 
> The reason that I bought The Tanly was as you described. Audiobyte Hydra-Z also use Xilinx Spartan but it was use Amanero not XMOS.
> Also The Hydra-Z is around $835 shipped but The Tanly is $560 shipped.
> ...


 

 Woah! Tanly charges ~$100 USD for shipping? Guess for some reason I was expecting it to be much less than that. Has anyone heard the U12, MX-U8, and Tanly?
  
 I'll probably spring for the Tanly, but I wish it were just a bit cheaper. I have a nice vintage DAC (Theta Basic III) that accepts AES and coax (obv no USB or HDMI), but once I start thinking about spending over $500 on a USB interface, I start wondering if I should just buy a Yggdrasil.


----------



## prot

stuartmc the tanley designer surely deserves a medal for smart cloning .. a somewhat dubious title but I still mean it as a compliment. 

And btw, since the tanley is in a diff price range, maybe one of the mods I mentioned a while ago makes sense
http://www.vectron.com/products/tcxo/tcxo_index.htm#tight
The TX-xxx ones seem to be the best TCXOs ever, one order of magnitude better than the crysteks&co with 30-50 pp*b* precision ... not sure about the prices but should be about $1-200 a piece. They are quite new and prolly never used in audio applications but the specsheets surely sound promising. Typical TCXO sizes and current needs, they may be (relatively) easy drop-in replacements.


----------



## stuartmc

rurika said:


> Thumb up for Stuartmc.
> 
> The reason that I bought The Tanly was as you described. Audiobyte Hydra-Z also use Xilinx Spartan but it was use Amanero not XMOS.
> Also The Hydra-Z is around $835 shipped but The Tanly is $560 shipped.
> ...


 
 I haven't had to use a windows device driver since I was using an android tablet with a linux kernel.  I'm now changing over to a tablet that runs windows 8.1 and has a full size usb port (yeah!). I have the driver that was sent to me by Tanly, but I'm all ears if this Thesycon driver works better and sounds better.  Are you currently using it with your Tanly and can you share some more details about it?   We may want to go private with this conversation if it goes too far afield.


----------



## motberg

stuartmc said:


> I haven't had to use a windows device driver since I was using an android tablet with a linux kernel.  I'm now changing over to a tablet that runs windows 8.1 and has a full size usb port (yeah!). I have the driver that was sent to me by Tanly, but I'm all ears if this Thesycon driver works better and sounds better.  Are you currently using it with your Tanly and can you share some more details about it?   We may want to go private with this conversation if it goes too far afield.


 

 Hi Guys, Please keep us updated on the Tanly, maybe start a new thread if there are already multiple users. Besides the build quality and engineering described above, I also find important the HDMI output i2S, and the near universal XMOS compatibility.... Thanks


----------



## stuartmc

motberg said:


> Hi Guys, Please keep us updated on the Tanly, maybe start a new thread if there are already multiple users. Besides the build quality and engineering described above, I also find important the HDMI output i2S, and the near universal XMOS compatibility.... Thanks




I was thinking that I might start a new thread if there are enough of us to support it. I was sold on the Tanly because of the superb design and build, but it was the HDMI connector I2S that put it over the top. I have the Gustard H10 and U12 and am convinced that I2S is the best sounding connection.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> http://www.vectron.com/products/tcxo/tcxo_index.htm#tight
> The TX-xxx ones seem to be the best TCXOs ever, one order of magnitude better than the crysteks&co with 30-50 pp*b* precision ... not sure about the prices but should be about $1-200 a piece. They are quite new and prolly never used in audio applications but the specsheets surely sound promising. Typical TCXO sizes and current needs, they may be (relatively) easy drop-in replacements.


 
 One order better then the CCHD957?
  
 Phase noise of the Vectron TX-402 (clock?) at 10Hz -80dB, 1kHz -130dB, 10kHz -145dB, 100kHz -150dB
  
 Phase noise of the Crystek CCHD-957(24.576MHz) at 10 Hz -97.95dB, 1 kHz -149dB, 10 kHz -162.39dB, 100kHz -170.58dB
  
 Phase noise of the NDK NZ2520SD (22.579Hz) at 10 Hz -112dB, 1 kHz -152dB, 10kHz -156dB, 100kHz -155dB
  
 Phase noise of Vanguard (24.576MHz) 500ppb at 1kHz -125dB
  
 Phase noise of Gustard (49.152MHz) 100ppb 1kHz ?
  
 Phase noise of JYEC (MX-U8) 100ppb at 1kHz -130dB, 10kHz -140dB, 100 kHz -145dB
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vanguard-TCXO-0-1ppm-24-576MHz-Ultra-precision-Golden-Oscillator-/131020893410?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e81742ce2


----------



## ginetto61

stuartmc said:


> I have the latest version with the Talema transformer and additional small capacitors on the main board.


 
 Hi and thanks for the kind reply.
 It looks to me a better realized PS than the one in the Melodious.
 Filtering on the mains input, better diodes ... and i think also something else that my technically blind eye cannot spot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





> I had read those same reviews and was struck by the similarities. I took particular note of the design comments made in the computer audiophile review.


 
  
 Yes. A great design and a great review indeed.   One of my favourite review.  And also the interview on the same site with the designer is extremely interesting.
 Some people are really gifted.  And when gift meets passion a wonder appear.


> He points out the rather extraordinary efforts made in the Berkely to separate the dirty side (usb input and Xmos chip) from the clean side (clocks and outputs).
> The Berkely physically separates these sides and has *an interesting isolator chip between the sides which he believes is an Adum chip with a ferrite gate over it.*
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Clearly a very well designed unit and most important this seems to show in the listening tests.
 But it is 2000 USD. Not that i am saying that is overpriced at all on the basis of the exceptional performance.
 For a very high end pc set up could be just mandatory.  The usb to spdif conversion is very critical for top performance.
  


> If you look at the Tanly, you will see very much of the same.
> In fact, I believe it was this dirty/clean design principal that led Tam at Tanly to mount the usb input on the front of the unit.
> The two sections are completely separated on the pcb and the Tanly has two buffer chips over the I2S traces connecting the two sides vs. the one that Berkeley uses.
> The chips are a TI IS07240H which is a digital isolator exactly equivalent to the Adum chip referred to in the Computer Audiophile article - "_*The ADuM chips are digital isolators based on the Analog Devices, Inc., iCoupler® technology. Combining high speed CMOS and monolithic transformer technologies, these isolation components provide outstanding performance characteristics superior to alternatives, such as optocouplers."_
> ...


 
  
 Thanks a lot and very interesting.  To be honest only the usb on the front i do not like,
 I like all connections on the back.  As a rule.
 They should put the product on ebay.com to increase their market.  And also some technical pages in english for the western market.
 but i like the power button.
 Any device should have a power button on the front.  At least for accessibility in case of emergency.
  


> The chosen set up actually does give* the greatest physical separation of the dirty and clean sides. *
> Take these design similarities, couple them with the listening impressions noted in The Absolute Sound and Computer Audiophile, and I think it is not unreasonable to call the Tanly an affordable near twin of the Berkeley.
> One major difference I see is the Tanly's inclusion of the Xilinx Spartan-6 FPGA. Tanly is using it for data formation and jitter reduction. I don't see anything similar in the Berkeley pictures.
> This may be the reason the Tanly has two digital isolator chips separating the dirty and clean sides. It appears that the FPGA chip is being fed two separate channels from the XMOS.
> Yes, they are indeed Cree diodes.


 
  
 Clearly another great unit, a clear step above the cheaper offerings. 
 I am not sure my actual system have high enough resolution to appreciate the differences between all the units.
 I mean, it could be possible that i would not be able to discriminate between a U12 and a Tanly in my present set-up.
 But for high level systems this Tanly could be just a definitive element of the chain.
 Pc audio is extremely handy but also complex.   Some streamers like the Logitech Squeezebox are said to put out a very clean and good quality spdif signal.
 But i am completely sold on the pc audio these days, even if a good set-up is difficult to put togther.
  
 again i think that this Tanly deserves a dedicated thread for sure.
  
 In the meantime i have some questions on the use of the Tanly, and sorry if you have already answered:
 1)   which OS are you using ? are you using a powerful pc ?
 2)   which usb cable are you using and how long ?
 3)   are you using any power conditioner/filter with the Tanly ?
 4)   which dacs have you tried with it and with which connection ?
  
 Thanks a lot again.
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## rurika

auvgeek said:


> Woah! Tanly charges ~$100 USD for shipping? Guess for some reason I was expecting it to be much less than that. Has anyone heard the U12, MX-U8, and Tanly?
> 
> I'll probably spring for the Tanly, but I wish it were just a bit cheaper. I have a nice vintage DAC (Theta Basic III) that accepts AES and coax (obv no USB or HDMI), but once I start thinking about spending over $500 on a USB interface, I start wondering if I should just buy a Yggdrasil.


 
  
 The price on Taobao is $470
 The shipping fee (to US) is around $60-$65. I already asked Tan about it. But the reason he has to charge for $560 was paypal fee. So, I think it was fair for the price.
  
 One of the major reasons I picked Tanly is HDMI I2S output and price. He can change hdmi pin output as you request. (by change Xilinx Spartan controller via firmware).
  


ginetto61 said:


> In the meantime i have some questions on the use of the Tanly, and sorry if you have already answered:
> 1)   which OS are you using ? are you using a powerful pc ?
> 2)   which usb cable are you using and how long ?
> 3)   are you using any power conditioner/filter with the Tanly ?
> 4)   which dacs have you tried with it and with which connection ?


 
  
 I use Windows 2012 R2 for my both fanless PC (controlPC , audioPC with jplay).   My unit audioPC is i5 4670T (was i7 4765T but I burned it) and i3 4xxxT (controlPC) can't remember what exactly model number.  I also use two of Teradak ATX power supplies (210w model) from Group buy. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/group-buy-full-atx-linear-power-supply-unit-teradak-21810
  
 I use Acoustic Revive usb cable 1.0m with jplay usb card.
 No, not for now but maybe later.
 W4S Dac2 Dsdse
  
 If I have to say. The Teradak PSU is the very very big step if you use a regular PC PSU. (or you can just use 12v Linear PSU with picoPsu 150XT or 160XT)


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *rurika* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> The price on Taobao is $470
> The shipping fee (to US) is around $60-$65. I already asked Tan about it. But the reason he has to charge for $560 was paypal fee. So, I think it was fair for the price.
> One of the major reasons I picked Tanly is HDMI I2S output and price. He can change hdmi pin output as you request. (by change Xilinx Spartan controller via firmware).
> ...


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting reply.
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> One order better then the CCHD957?
> 
> Phase noise of the Vectron TX-402 (clock?) at 10Hz -80dB, 1kHz -130dB, 10kHz -145dB, 100kHz -150dB
> 
> ...




Thx for the reminder, I got carried away by the stability which is indeed 1 order better (30-50 ppb vs 100-500ppb) and kinda forgot that the stated "excellent phase stability" is only important for us in the audio range.
Still, the TX-503 is quite good and comparable with the Chrystek / NDK: 10 Hz at 93 db, 100 Hz at -118 db, 1 kHz at -140 db, 10 kHz at -154 db. Some others are even better with respect to phase noise (148db at 1kHz) and apparently that may be improved with a small filter cap, see here. That is pretty good documentation, even I can understand most of it.

Anyway, you are right that they are not as good as I initially thought ... at least on paper.

P.S.
not sure where you got the phase numbers for the Crysteks, but according to this graph they are lower than you stated and actually worse than the Vectron Tx-503. NDKs still have better phase noise for a much lower price ... and btw the vectrons might be cheaper than I thought

P.S.2
Another little wonder http://www.vectron.com/whatsnew/pr111214.htm . 10-30ppb and this time also better phase noise numbers: -125db at 10hz, -145 at 100hz, -160 at 1khz, -165 at 10khz. Looks a bit different and I'm not sure it's suitable for audio but the specsheet is surely wow on this one.

P.S.3
in case anyone is wondering already, I have no association to Vectron ... just looking around for replacement TCXOs and those are the best I found.


----------



## stuartmc

*Still, the TX-503 is quite good and comparable with the Chrystek / NDK: 10 Hz at 93 db, 100 Hz at -118 db, 1 kHz at -140 db, 10 kHz at -154 db. Some others are even better with respect to phase noise (148db at 1kHz) and apparently that may be improved with a small filter cap, see here. That is pretty good documentation, even I can understand most of it.*

That may have answered the question of why the latest Tanly pcb, that I have, is equipped with small caps next to the clock crystals. Take a look at the early version next to mine:


Those small caps are probably there for reduction of the clocks phase noise.


----------



## abartels

stuartmc said:


> *Still, the TX-503 is quite good and comparable with the Chrystek / NDK: 10 Hz at 93 db, 100 Hz at -118 db, 1 kHz at -140 db, 10 kHz at -154 db. Some others are even better with respect to phase noise (148db at 1kHz) and apparently that may be improved with a small filter cap, see here. That is pretty good documentation, even I can understand most of it.*
> 
> That may have answered the question of why the latest Tanly pcb, that I have, is equipped with small caps next to the clock crystals. Take a look at the early version next to mine:
> 
> ...


 
  
 bypass caps connected to VCC/GND as close as possible to XO is also a necessity to prevent them oscillating,,,,,


----------



## stuartmc

abartels said:


> bypass caps connected to VCC/GND as close as possible to XO is also a necessity to prevent them oscillating,,,,,



On closer examination, it looks like there was a change in type and perhaps value of capacitors on the board. The earlier version had a different kind in the same places. I will be asking Tam to respond to this and other design questions in my upcoming review for Positive-Feedback.


----------



## prot

stuartmc said:


> That may have answered the question of why the latest Tanly pcb, that I have, is equipped with small caps next to the clock crystals. Take a look at the early version next to mine:
> 
> 
> Those small caps are probably there for reduction of the clocks phase noise.




I am no DIY expert but your caps-hypothesis sounds very good to me. And that Tanly looks better and better with every new post.

Also, the vectron ex-421 may be a wow-upgrade for the clocks ... the phase noise is even better than the reference OCXO from the NDK graph, the stability is OCXO-grade too and much better than the usual NDKs and the power needs are still manageable: 0.25W for normal usage and an acceptable 1,5W for the short 60secs warmup phase.
 It is however too much for my feeble DIY skills ... any of the DIY experts around here who wants to investigate that route !?


----------



## abartels

stuartmc said:


> On closer examination, it looks like there was a change in type and perhaps value of capacitors on the board. The earlier version had a different kind in the same places. I will be asking Tam to respond to this and other design questions in my upcoming review for Positive-Feedback.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Anyway, you are right that they are not as good as I initially thought ... at least on paper.
> 
> P.S.
> not sure where you got the phase numbers for the Crysteks, but according to this graph they are lower than you stated and actually worse than the Vectron Tx-503. NDKs still have better phase noise for a much lower price ... and btw the vectrons might be cheaper than I thought


 
 From the Crystek datasheet - where did you get yours? : http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/94/CCHD-957-41401.pdf 
  
 Don't see where your statements are coming from?  From approx 7kHz up the CCHD-957 is better then the NDK SD:
 @ 10kHz NDK (SD) -155dB, the Crystek -162.390dB (24.576 clock)
 @100kHz NDK (SD) -158dB, the Crystek -170.58dB (24.576 clock)
  
 The TX-503 is worst then both at these frequencies -154dB and -156dB, respectfully.  And you have to see what exact freqs they have available - a range doesn't help.
  
 As far as clock stability is concerned the NDK SD is 30ppm and the Crystek 957 is 25ppm.  But since the stock clocks are already at the 100ppb number - I don't think this is as much of an issue as phase noise.  As the worse clock stability performing NDK's - but better phase noise - seem to sound better then the stock Gustard clocks.  At least that's what a few folks have reported.
  
 I posted back on page 77 post #1141 the links to the whitepapers on the test equipment issues on testing the lowest frequencies of phase noise jitter.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/1140
  
 So those low freq measures (10Hz) are problematic


> In the Silicon Labs WP 'Clock Division with Jitter and Phase Noise Measurements'
> 
> On page 6 they speak of this very LF rise in measured jitter for femtosecond clocks:
> 
> ...


 
  
 The DIYinHK webpage is incorrect on saying:


> For easier comparison(lower is better), we overlay the two phase noise graph at the same scale, under 25khz(human listenable range) nz2520sd(red line) is better, over 25khz(human unlistenable range) crystek 957 is better.


 
 Then using this chart to prove their point:


 I don't think they understand how to read a logarithmic scale.
  
 It still looks like the Crystek's are the best clock currently available - that have the freq and power draw that these devices need.


----------



## prot

rb2013
Nevermind the tx-503, the one I posted above should be much better (at least on paper) ... see http://www.vectron.com/products/ocxo/ex-421.htm . Is's a german company who makes clocks for satellites & military so I guess one can trust those specs numbers & the general production quality.
However, not sure if that clock is suitable for audio apps or available at needed frequencies (24.576, etc) ... not exactly a slamdunk replacement and someone needs to do a lot of research ...


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> @rb2013
> Nevermind the tx-503, the one I posted above should be much better (at least on paper) ... see http://www.vectron.com/products/ocxo/ex-421.htm . Is's a german company who makes clocks for satellites & military so I guess one can trust those specs numbers & the general production quality.
> However, not sure if that clock is suitable for audio apps or available at needed frequencies (24.576, etc) ... not exactly a slamdunk replacement and someone needs to do a lot of research ...


 

 Yeah - that one looks interesting.  Now only available in 10MHz, 20MHz and 100MHz - but if they would make some with the clock freq used in these devices they may be contenders.  Especially if they made a std DIP14 THT drop in.


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> Yeah - that one looks interesting.  Now only available in 10MHz, 20MHz and 100MHz - but if they would make some with the clock freq used in these devices they may be contenders.  Especially if they made a std DIP14 THT drop in.




The chances they'll make a custom clock for diy-rs are quite slim. Maybe if a serious device manufacturer asks, otherwise I do not see a company like vectron bothering with such uncertain prospects ... but then, who knows, wonders do happen


----------



## stuartmc

stuartmc said:


> On closer examination, it looks like there was a change in type and perhaps value of capacitors on the board. The earlier version had a different kind in the same places. I will be asking Tam to respond to this and other design questions in my upcoming review for Positive-Feedback.


 
 Duh, the older board used ceramic caps, the newer board uses poly caps.  My understanding is that the dissipation factor for ceramics is much high than a poly cap and ceramics have a high "Q" which may be a problem for high speed circuits. Looks like Tanly made a sound upgrade, pardon the pun.


----------



## prot

Some interesting OCXOs with very good specs including low power, fast warmup and suitable packaging http://golledge.com/docs/products/ocxos/ocxos_pcb.htm Some of those may actually be drop-in replacements. 
And apparently the widely praised altmann tera dap uses one of the golledge clocks.


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> Some interesting OCXOs with very good specs including low power, fast warmup and suitable packaging http://golledge.com/docs/products/ocxos/ocxos_pcb.htm Some of those may actually be drop-in replacements.
> And apparently the widely praised altmann tera dap uses one of the golledge clocks.


 
  
 Want a very good XO? The best for audio?
  
  
  
 http://www.pulsarclock.com/Clock.html
  
  
  
 But, they are not cheap,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


----------



## hgpsemaj

I bought an OCXO for my CD transport recently, it outperforms the Dexa clock in several aspects,
  
  

  
 I was thinking to replace the clock for my Digital Audio Processor with an OCXO, But the clock manufacturer do not agree, they emphasis that a PXO would be more applicable for certain application . It would not be a drop in replacement, and it is quite a complicated installation, so I would bring my Digital Audio Processor to their factory, and let them carry out the replacement job for me in this Saturday. 
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> Want a very good XO? The best for audio?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A good specsheet indeed but just curious, what exactly makes it "the best for audio"? To my limited knowledge the vectron and some of the golledge above seem very similar and some specs are even better (e.g. Stability on the vectron) ... they are a bit more powerhungry but still in the acceptable mW area. 
Is there anything else I should check besides stability, phase noise & power consumption ?

Anyway, does anyone know how much any of those vectron/golledge/pulsar clocks cost !?


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Some interesting OCXOs with very good specs including low power, fast warmup and suitable packaging http://golledge.com/docs/products/ocxos/ocxos_pcb.htm Some of those may actually be drop-in replacements.
> And apparently the widely praised altmann tera dap uses one of the golledge clocks.


 

 It would be nice if these units had a clock input feature - so an external clock could be used.  Then a Rubidium clock could be added with it's own PS.  That might likely out perform the Berkeley USB.  On the HiFace EVO the external clock makes a substantial difference.
  
 In the CA USB shootout the EVO was 9th without the external clock - then jumped to 3rd with it.  Right behind the Berkeley and dCS Scarlatti.
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-1532

  
 So if any of the Chinese designers are reading this (and they should as I'm sure this thread has generated lots of sales for them) - how about a version of your boxes with an external clock option.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
*Bypass Caps:*
 Thinking about the NDK bypass cap requirement - I wonder if that's what makes them sound better.  Might try a very simple mod of adding a bypass cap to the stock clocks - easily reversible.  I have a bunch of leftover Vishay- Roderstein MKP-1837's .01uf from my DAC mod project.  They are considered one of the best bypass caps made and are quite cheap.
  
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_visrod.html


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Want a very good XO? The best for audio?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Those are interesting - how much are the std frequencies?
  
 Just as interesting is the ADM7150 Regulator board - which they recommend.
 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/258789-pulsar-clock-ultra-low-noise-ocxo.html#post4057006
  
 PS Found it - 350 Euro per clock under 98.304mHz.  Very spendy.
 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/258789-pulsar-clock-ultra-low-noise-ocxo-4.html#post4101798
  
 The ADM7150 board is only 36 Euro - that might be worth a try.


----------



## prot

rb2013
Afaik, soundaware is the only chinese hifi company which sells devices with worldclock input. http://www.soundaware.net/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=lists&catid=14. The A100 I think. But that's a PC-like transport. OTOH, if you go directly pcie to aes with a super clock, it might sound even better than any usb device.

You are however into the few thousand $ price category (player + rubidium + highend powersource)


----------



## ginetto61

prot said:


> @rb2013
> Afaik, soundaware is the only chinese hifi company which sells *devices with worldclock input.* http://www.soundaware.net/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=lists&catid=14. The A100 I think. But that's a PC-like transport.


 
  
 Hi i have a question.  If i have instead a dac with a clock input the all usb to spdif issue is less critical ? because i could use the external clock with the dac ?
 in this way even if the usb to spdif converter is low quality it will have less impact on the sound out of the dac ?
  


> OTOH, if you go directly *pcie to aes with a super clock*, it might sound even better than any usb device.  You are however into the few thousand $ price category (player + rubidium + highend powersource)


 
 Are you referring to some product in particular ? i have aes input on my dac so i am very interested to understand the best way to drive it. 
 But if these adapters are all in the few thousands USD are above my budget.  And what is a superclock in this case ? is it on the pci-e card ?
 Thanks a lot for the very interesting information
 Regards,  gino


----------



## prot

ginetto61 said:


> Hi i have a question.  If i have instead a dac with a clock input the all usb to spdif issue is less critical ? because i could use the external clock with the dac ?
> in this way even if the usb to spdif converter is low quality it will have less impact on the sound out of the dac ?
> 
> Are you referring to some product in particular ? i have aes input on my dac so i am very interested to understand the best way to drive it.
> ...




Sry gino you have so many Qs so all over the place, I wouldnt know where to start. I'll just try to clarify that soundaware device. 
It's pretty much a pc. With a gustard you have a soundpath like (pc)cpu->pcie->usb->u12->dac. With the soundaware you go cpu-pcie-aes-dac.. shorter signal path, potentially better. The rubidium clock will be the main audioclock in this chain and take care of the pcie-to-aes conversion .. i.e. from simple data signal (1 and 0 audiobits) to clocked audio signal (spdif/aes).
Hope it helps... also hope I got it right


----------



## rurika

I just applied 3M 5100 sheet to Tanly. Wow, unbelievable. I didn't expected it will have effect that much.
  
  


rb2013 said:


> It would be nice if these units had a clock input feature - so an external clock could be used.  Then a Rubidium clock could be added with it's own PS.  That might likely out perform the Berkeley USB.  On the HiFace EVO the external clock makes a substantial difference.
> 
> In the CA USB shootout the EVO was 9th without the external clock - then jumped to 3rd with it.  Right behind the Berkeley and dCS Scarlatti.
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-1532


 
  
 My Tanly also have wclk in and out.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> @rb2013
> Afaik, soundaware is the only chinese hifi company which sells devices with worldclock input. http://www.soundaware.net/index.php?m=content&c=index&a=lists&catid=14. The A100 I think. But that's a PC-like transport. OTOH, if you go directly pcie to aes with a super clock, it might sound even better than any usb device.
> 
> You are however into the few thousand $ price category (player + rubidium + highend powersource)


 

 Well that's in the right direction - what I was thinking about was a HiFace EVO like device with better quality parts - ie Tanly, Melodious, and Gustard.


----------



## rb2013

rurika said:


> I just applied 3M 5100 sheet to Tanly. Wow, unbelievable. I didn't expected it will have effect that much.
> 
> 
> 
> My Tanly also have wclk in and out.


 
 Yes - good you (bought?) that option.  Back on page 81 - post #1211.  I posted about this option - but it looks like he changed the layout.  How much extra was it?  Makes for a very versatile machine - you can run the clock to your DAC (if it have BNC clock inputs) or run an external clock.  Back in the those pages someone had a link to a very reasonable Rubidium external clock.
  
 Did he say what clock freq you needed for input?  As there is two 957's on the board with different frequencies.
  
 Does it still have the spdif 3 option? (slave or master clocking)
  
 PS The clock out feature is not as important as most DAC's don't have a clock input - other then in the ProAudio units like RME, Apogee, EMU, etc...  It's the clock input that is most interesting.
  
 Here's an example - the legacy Apogee Rosetta 200

 They do exist in the consumer audio world Esoteric KO1X with BNC clock input.  Antelope kinda straddles both worlds (maybe more consumer today - check out the

 Top of the food chain Rubidum clock Antelope Isochrome 10M
 http://www.antelopeaudio.com/en/products/10M-atomic-clock


----------



## ginetto61

prot said:


> Sry gino you have so many Qs so all over the place, I wouldnt know where to start.


 
  
 Hi thanks for the reply and yes i am very interested in usb to spdif (AES) conversion indeed.  I see it as a very promising way to get sound out of a pc.
  


> I'll just try to clarify that *soundaware device.*
> It's pretty much a pc. With a gustard you have a soundpath like (pc)cpu->pcie->usb->u12->dac. With the soundaware you go cpu-pcie-aes-dac.. shorter signal path, potentially better. The rubidium clock will be the main audioclock in this chain and take care of the pcie-to-aes conversion .. i.e. from simple data signal (1 and 0 audiobits) to clocked audio signal (spdif/aes).
> Hope it helps... also hope I got it right


 
  
 I think i have got it.  The device by Soundaware you mention (which eact model is ?) has a wordclock in and a AES out placed on a pci-e card.   Is this card made by Soundaware ?
 Have you tested it personally and compared to something good ? do you know of reviews ?
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> ...  most DAC's don't have a clock input - other then in the ProAudio units like RME, Apogee, EMU, etc...  It's the clock input that is most interesting. Here's an example - the legacy *Apogee Rosetta 200*


 
  
 Hi and sorry if i go off topic just for a second, but i have questions.
 If as you very well say


> *most DAC's don't have a clock input *


 
 does this mean that *is not an important feature ?*  i have read reports saying that often the sound does not improve that much using even a very good external clock generator.
  
 Moreover i would like very much to get *your opinion on the above dac *as i have one.
 Is it ok ?   what would be a clear step above ?
  
 thanks a lot indeed and sorry for the OT
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## stuartmc

rurika said:


> I just applied 3M 5100 sheet to Tanly. Wow, unbelievable. I didn't expected it will have effect that much.




The stuff works really well to shield the emi/rfi of the power supply from the more sensitive items on the main pcb. You did yours just like mine. Since the Berkeley went hog wild shielding its digital isolator chip with ferrite, I gave the two on the Tanly a healthy cover of 3M5100. I see you did as well.


----------



## ginetto61

Hi so *the idea of taking out the mains voltage transformer from the box and put it in a separate box is not that silly ?  *




 it was the first thing i thought honestly.
 I am sure that even toroidals have some EMI leakage ... i am not confident on their shielding, especially cheap units.
 Maybe medical grade ones are different.
 And when the transformer is placed so close to the circuits ... is like fire for plastic.
 These chips look to act like antennas ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 However *these experiments* are extremely interesting and thank you sincerely to take the time to do them and disclose your very interesting findings
 they *show very clearly how sensitive indeed these chips are*
  
 To end my ramblings i am more and more conviced that *a two boxes solution (i.e. power supply > DC and not AC umbilical > converter) is that way to go *...
 i will go that way for sure.
  
 Thanks a lot again for your very valuable advice and directions.
 Have a nice day
 Regards,  gino


----------



## prot

ginetto61 said:


> Hi thanks for the reply and yes i am very interested in usb to spdif (AES) conversion indeed.  I see it as a very promising way to get sound out of a pc.
> 
> 
> I think i have got it.  The device by Soundaware you mention (which eact model is ?) has a wordclock in and a AES out placed on a pci-e card.   Is this card made by Soundaware ?
> ...




http://www.soundaware-europe.com/index.php/producten-soundaware/soundaware-d100-pro-deluxe.html. The pro/deluxe versions have extra wordclock input/output and i2s. 
Just google for reviews, there should be some even here on headfi. And no I neither own nor heard it with my own ears.


----------



## ginetto61

prot said:


> http://www.soundaware-europe.com/index.php/producten-soundaware/soundaware-d100-pro-deluxe.html. The pro/deluxe versions have extra wordclock input/output and i2s.
> Just google for reviews, there should be some even here on headfi. And no I neither own nor heard it with my own ears.


 
  
 Thanks a lot.  Very beautiful unit indeed.  Kind regards, gino


----------



## prot

rurika
Guess I have the same Qs as rb2013: is that tanly a "special edition"? And if yes how much and what wclock input freqs does it support?

rb2013
May have been this rubidium http://m.shenzhenaudio.com/rbd-rubidium-clock-for-soundaware-d100-pro-deluxe-edition.html. Dont know any extra details though .. may be better to go the ebay route, plenty second hand rubidiums around.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Those are interesting - how much are the std frequencies?
> 
> Just as interesting is the ADM7150 Regulator board - which they recommend.
> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/258789-pulsar-clock-ultra-low-noise-ocxo.html#post4057006
> ...


 
 Hi rb2013,
  
 ADM7150 is indeed interesting, maybe worth a try.
  
 About frequencies Pulsar Clock: All the frequencies we need are available, see below:


----------



## MINORISUKE

prot said:


> http://www.soundaware-europe.com/index.php/producten-soundaware/soundaware-d100-pro-deluxe.html. The pro/deluxe versions have extra wordclock input/output and i2s.
> Just google for reviews, there should be some even here on headfi. And no I neither own nor heard it with my own ears.


 

 I own Soundaware D100 Pro Deluxe + Musical Paradise rubidium clock (+ U12 + MX-U8).  Any question about D100 Pro Deluxe is welcomed.
 I wonder if this should be posted here in U12 thread.
  
 In one word, D100 Pro Deluxe is a stand-alone "network transport", with DLNA renderer capability.  It also has an internal DLNA server, which does not stream to other DLNA renderers (Control Point can see this internal DLAN server).  It has x2 USB inputs which are only for storage, and x1 SD card slot.  Its RJ45 output has a "clock output" signal as well.  x2 internal clocks are NDK.
 It supports up to 192kHz/24-bit.  For DSD, it supports DSD64 DoP only from coax, opt, and AES/EBU.
  
 In my environment, the best quality is achieved when an external DLNA server is used (MinimServer in my case).  I use I2S output only, which is better than AES/EBU.  Using its internal DLNA server via NFS mount sounds less clear.  USB storage attached directly to it is out of question.  SD card is quite good, but not so good as the DLNA renderer with external server.
  
 It is not fair at this moment to compare [D100 Pro Deluxe + rubidium clock] with U12 or MX-U8, for these USB-DDCs have no external clock input.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Those are interesting - how much are the std frequencies?
> 
> Just as interesting is the ADM7150 Regulator board - which they recommend.
> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/258789-pulsar-clock-ultra-low-noise-ocxo.html#post4057006
> ...


 
  
 This version uses also the ADM7150 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/59-10uv-ultralow-noise-dac-power-supply-regulator-33v-50v-800ma.html
 But, it is not as good as the 0.8uV noise regulater they sell.
  
 I will stick with the 0.8uV noise psu. Maybe I will try to replace shottkey rectifier bridge with those Cree ones, I bought 20 pcs to test with,,,
  

  
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
  
 Alex


----------



## hgpsemaj

This may be the OCXO for the novice. Their after sales service is excellent. For some reasons, my first OCXO is damaged, and the factory send me a replacement for free.
  
 http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.1998246701.4.emRwJg&scm=1007.10152.6561.0i41154083487&id=41055775007&pvid=8b5913eb-7063-47f5-8e5a-7c767e5f7841
  
 They also provide installation pictures. I know some traders are offering a similar product for 5x to 6x of this price.
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> This may be the OCXO for the novice. Their after sales service is excellent. For some reasons, my first OCXO is damaged, and the factory send me a replacement for free.
> 
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=2013.1.1998246701.4.emRwJg&scm=1007.10152.6561.0i41154083487&id=41055775007&pvid=8b5913eb-7063-47f5-8e5a-7c767e5f7841
> 
> ...


 
 Hi hgpsemaj,
  
 That OCXO is not expensive, but, when looking at noise figures, NDK is still the better choice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 By the way, I did take another look at the I2S USB interface from DIYINHK, and noticed something I overlooked before,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/search?controller=search&orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=i2s&submit_search=Search
  
 I thought that only the NDK's were fed with isolated power, BUT, look at the pic!!!
  

 It's completely isolated with taking use of 2x Silicon Labs 8661 Low Power 6-Channel Isolator.
  
 There's your USB isolator, with the NDK clocks on the isolated side, which needs to be fed with 3.3V clean power.
  
  
 This will definitely be my next project (didn't even start with MX-U8 yet, hahahaha )
  

  
Isolated XMOS DSD DXD 384kHz high-quality USB to I2S/DSD PCB with ultralow noise 6.5uV regulator and sampling rate LED indicator PCB(all smd are soldered, thru hole component are not soldered)

This is the best USB to Isolated I2S/DSD PCB for audiophile Diyer to enjoy, with the audio oscilaltor on the clean isolated side, it take the performance to the other world.

Features:

1) Newest XMOS chip and uses 48MHz oscillator to asynchronous reclock usb audio data to I2S line, old XMOS uses only 13Mhz oscillator, over 4x better jitter rejection theoretically.

2) Audio oscillators 22.5792Mhz and 24.576Mhz are located on the clean isolated side for highest performance.

3) 6.5uVrms Ultralow noise linear power regulator (use of decade old LM317/1117 regulator is kidding for audiophile)

4) Solid ground plane (a must for high speed digital circuit)

5) No Via in active circuit (via inductance always create jitter problem)

6) NDK NZ2520SD Ultralow phase noise oscillator are sourced from Japan directly (guarantee no fake product from China)
 According to the official datasheet, the phase noise is much better than the famous crystek 957 under 25khz(human listenable range)
 For easier comparsion(lower is better), we overlay the two phase noise graph at the same scale, under 25khz(human listenable range) nz2520sd(red line) is better, over 25khz(human unlistenable range) crystek 957 is better.

7) Gold plated USB connector (Molex, FCI, or other depends on stock)

8) Compact size 60mm x 40mm

No drivers needed for MAC OS version 10.6.4  and above
 No drivers installation required for Linux with UAC2 compliant kernel
 ASIO/KS/WASAPI/Direct Sound drivers for Windows XP to 8 (32 and 64 bit)
 Fully featured Thesycon driver package (without 30 min. periodic beeps)

Windows 7/8/Vista/XP Driver is available to download from our website
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/9-driverdatasheetmanual

*USB2.0 is a must for 384kHz operation
 *Use a fresh install of windows and a dedicated USB port always avoid problem and run stable
 *The length of I2S connection to your DAC chip should be as short as possible for best result and below 10cm is recommended

Please check your DAC should support the following I2S signal specification to decode each sampling rate:


DATALRCKBCLKMCLK16/24bit44.1kHz2.8224Mhz22.5792Mhz16/24bit48kHz3.072Mhz24.576Mhz16/24bit88.2kHz5.6448Mhz22.5792Mhz16/24bit96kHz6.144Mhz24.576Mhz16/24bit176.4kHz11.2896Mhz22.5792Mhz16/24bit192kHz12.288Mhz24.576Mhz16/24bit352.8kHz22.5792Mhz22.5792Mhz16/24bit384kHz24.576Mhz24.576Mhz
  

 *DSD playback steps using foobar2000 in Microsoft Windows:*

1. Download and install the latest version of Foobar2000 from the official website

http://www.foobar2000.org/download

 2. Download and install the official ASIO output plug-in for Foobar2000

http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_asio

 3. Download the latest version of Super Audio CD Decoder plug-in for Foobar2000

http://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/foo_input_sacd/

 3a) unzip and double click to install ASIOProxyInstall-x.x.x.x.exe

 3b) Foobar > Files > Perferences > Components > Install > foo_input_sacd.fb2k-component

 4. Configure the output device: Foobar > Files > Perferences > Playback > Output > Device (ASIO: foo_dsd_asio)

 5. Configure the ASIO output: Foobar > Files > Perferences > Playback > Output > ASIO > foo_dsd_asio(double click)

 5a) ASIO Driver: DIYINHK DXIO USB Audio

 5b) DSD Playback Method: DoP Marker 0x05/0xFA

 6. Foobar > Files > Perferences > Tools > SACD > ASIO Driver Mode: DSD

More detail: http://www.google.com/search?q=foobar+dsd

*User guide:*

1) If you do not play DSD from the computer, the PCB will not output DSD signal. It's the same as our old PCB without DSD

2) The isolated clean side uses external 3.3V(>50mA) regulated power supply(20pisn header labelled 3.3vINx2 and GND), it is usually connected to the same 3.3v digital power DAC is using(warning: over-voltage or reverse-voltage can damage the xmos chip immediately, double check before power on)

3) For DSD playback, LRCK= DSD D1(Left channel), DATA= DSD D2(right channel), BCK = DSD Bit Clock

4) Pins labeled (SDA SCL RST MUTE) on CN1 are reserved for used with DAC firmware customization(i.e. software control different DAC with different firmware), it should be left unconnect. CN1 Pin labelled DSDon is isolated, it is high when playing DSD and low when playing PCM.

5) For DSD playback, windows volume mixer must be set to full volume.

6) Different DAC chip needs different software command to switch between DSD and PCM mode. Please read the corresponding DAC datasheet for detail.

This item is in limited stock, maximum two per buyer. Please contact us if you want to buy more than two, thanks.

  
  
 Cheers to all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## hgpsemaj

abartels said:


> Hi hgpsemaj,
> 
> That OCXO is not expensive, but, when looking at noise figures, NDK is still the better choice


 
  
  
 Hello Alex,
  
 On data wise you are 100% correct, however in reality , not all the users could handle this little giant (i.e. NDK.). So this inexpensive OCXO provides our novice a sort of option.
  
  
 Regards,
  
 hgpsemaj


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> Hello Alex,
> 
> On data wise you are 100% correct, however in reality , not all the users could handle this little giant (i.e. NDK.). So this inexpensive OCXO provides our novice a sort of option.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi hgpsemaj,
  
 Like always, you are so right 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Forgot this little aspect of soldering with a needle, 500Watt halogen lamps around me, magnifying glasses as big as a kitchentable, hahahahahaha, you got ot 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 You are completely right, those would be a very nice replacement, but, be aware, it still needs 3W startup power, that's 600mA at 5V or even  900mA at 3.3V,
 In most cases regulater for XO doesn't provide that kind of power!
  
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> This version uses also the ADM7150 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/59-10uv-ultralow-noise-dac-power-supply-regulator-33v-50v-800ma.html
> But, it is not as good as the 0.8uV noise regulater they sell.
> 
> I will stick with the 0.8uV noise psu. Maybe I will try to replace shottkey rectifier bridge with those Cree ones, I bought 20 pcs to test with,,,
> ...


 
 Thanks Alex - yes those are better!   I see a box of those beautiful Fine Golds - I love that cap!  You have a ton of them - planning on going into the modding business (joke).


----------



## abartels

Hi rb2013,

The 0.8uV one is a good one, if not needing draw above 500mA. 

The FG's are VERY nice, need 4x4700uF16v for those 0.8uV psu's,and 6x2200uF16V for U12 and XM-U8 
Rest is stock  

Cheers, 
Alex


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> 6) NDK NZ2520SD Ultralow phase noise oscillator are sourced from Japan directly (guarantee no fake product from China)
> According to the official datasheet, the phase noise is much better than the famous crystek 957 under 25khz(human listenable range)
> For easier comparsion(lower is better), we overlay the two phase noise graph at the same scale, under 25khz(human listenable range) nz2520sd(red line) is better, over 25khz(human unlistenable range) crystek 957 is better.


 
 Nice board - but that statement about the NDK's is just not true - they just don't know how to read a logarithmic scale.  The SD don't out perform the 957 under 25kHz - it's 2500Hz.  And since when can humans hear to 25kHz?
  
 With statements like that on their website - I begin to doubt all their claims (like ultra low noise regulators).
  
 This is their chart - tell me if I'm wrong?  I'm no Engineer - but I did take honors calc in HS.

  
 "A falsity repeated is still a falsity"


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi rb2013,
> 
> The 0.8uV one is a good one, if not needing draw above 500mA.
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Alex,
  
 Did you try the FG's versus the HW's in the Gustard?  Did you prefer the FG's?
  
 I just bought another U12 to mess around with -I will try those larger 4700uf FG caps - they should make a noticeable difference.  Will also try the Vishay-R MKP1832 bypass caps on the stock clocks.
  
 Cheers
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Bob


----------



## mz2014

.


----------



## mz2014

Exactly. Why still most popular is Amanero Combo ?


----------



## rb2013

Just a little mathematics when is comes to understanding these clock phase noise dB (decibel) readings.
  
 Take for example the 10kHz reading on the Crystek CCHD-957 it's phase noise is -162.39dB vs the NDK SD at -156dB.
  
 Now the 957 is not just 4-5% better.  Decibel readings are logarimthic.
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel


> The *decibel* (*dB*) is a logarithmic unit used to express the ratio between two values of a physical quantity, often power or intensity. One of these quantities is often a reference value, and in this case the decibel can be used to express the absolute level of the physical quantity, as in the case of sound pressure. The number of decibels is ten times thelogarithm to base 10 of the ratio of two power quantities,[1] or of the ratio of the squares of two field amplitude quantities.


 


> A change in power by a factor of two approximately corresponds to a 3 dB change.


 


> dB​power ratio​amplitude ratio​100​  10 000 000 000​ 100 000​ 90​1 000 000 000​ 31 623​ 80​100 000 000​ 10 000​ 70​10 000 000​ 3 162​ 60​1 000 000​ 1 000​ 50​100 000​ 316​.240​10 000​ 100​ 30​1 000​ 31​.6220​100​ 10​ 10​10​ 3​.1626​3​.9811​.995 (~2)3​1​.995 (~2)1​.4131​1​.2591​.1220​1​ 1​ −1​0​.7940​.891−3​0​.501 (~1/2)0​.708−6​0​.2510​.501 (~1/2)−10​0​.10​.316 2−20​0​.010​.1−30​0​.0010​.031 62−40​0​.000 10​.01−50​0​.000 010​.003 162−60​0​.000 0010​.001−70​0​.000 000 10​.000 316 2−80​0​.000 000 010​.000 1−90​0​.000 000 0010​.000 031 62   −100​0​.000 000 000 10​.000 01An example scale showing power ratios _x_ and amplitude ratios √_x_ and dB equivalents 10 log10 _x_. It is easier to grasp and compare 2- or 3-digit numbers than to compare up to 10 digits.
> ​


 
 So the amplitude ratio of a 10dB difference is approx 300% - say 80dB to 90dB.  The power factor is 1000%.  Keep that in mind when evaluating clock phase measures.


----------



## abartels

I know, i'm little picky, but please, show me same figures from 1hz to 1khz,,,,,,

Regards, 

Alex


----------



## abartels

Or till 10lhz


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> I know, i'm little picky, but please, show me same figures from 1hz to 1khz,,,,,,
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Alex


 

 The readings from 1Hz to 100Hz are almost meaningless do to test equipment issues.
  
 See the SITime white paper on testing for phase noise.
  
 At 1kHz the readings for phase noise for the NDK SD's varies by clock freq - this directly from NDK's website:
 http://www.ndk.com/en/products/search/clock/1187932_1433.html
  
 So for say the Gustard U12 clocks the NDK SD is -148dB, and the 957 is -153.19dB (45.184Mhz) and -152.89dB (49.152Mhz).
 For the MX-U8 clocks: NDK SD is -151dB, and the 957 is -148.89dB (22.5792Mhz) and -148.97dB (24.576Mhz)
  
 These figures are taken directly from the 957 datasheet (see Mouser for the link).
 So for at least the MX-U8 clocks at 1kHz the NDK's are slightly superior - from 2.5kHz up to 1mHz the 957s are better. 
  
 NDK SD Phase Noise by clock freq:


> Phase noise(dBc/Hz)+3.3V, 25°C
> Fout±1kHz(Typ)​-151(20MHz)
> -148(40MHz)
> -142(60MHz)
> ...


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Or till 10lhz


 

 See the DIYinHK chart:


----------



## rurika

prot said:


> @rurika
> Guess I have the same Qs as rb2013: is that tanly a "special edition"? And if yes how much and what wclock input freqs does it support?
> 
> @rb2013
> May have been this rubidium http://m.shenzhenaudio.com/rbd-rubidium-clock-for-soundaware-d100-pro-deluxe-edition.html. Dont know any extra details though .. may be better to go the ebay route, plenty second hand rubidiums around.


 
  
 I talked to him(Tan) and just told him that I want a wclk-in feature too and that's it. For the freqs. I can't remember I will ask Tan soon.
 Actually he told me the wclk-in was design for SDIF-3(DSD) only not for PCM. But since another customer told him "it would be great if it work with PCM too" so he just made it to work for both of them (I'm not sure how).
  
 After I read about the Rubidium clock for soundaware. I might try one as well. (If it works with Tanly)


----------



## motberg

rurika said:


> I talked to him(Tan) and just told him that I want a wclk-in feature too and that's it. For the freqs. I can't remember I will ask Tan soon.
> Actually he told me the wclk-in was design for SDIF-3(DSD) only not for PCM. But since another customer told him "it would be great if it work with PCM too" so he just made it to work for both of them (I'm not sure how).
> 
> After I read about the Rubidium clock for soundaware. I might try one as well. (If it works with Tanly)


 

 Just a quick comment that Tam made me a Tanly DDC with the HDMI i2S compatible with Audio-GD (Master 7). Shipped in less than 24 hours after ordering and working great with JPlay 6.. currently in the break-in period...


----------



## rurika

Well, I'm wondering. If my dac doesn't have an i2s clk pin input. Does it have benefit to add a rubidium clock in my Tanly ??


----------



## prot

rurika said:


> Well, I'm wondering. If my dac doesn't have an i2s clk pin input. Does it have benefit to add a rubidium clock in my Tanly ??




Thx for the tanly update, that's very good service. 
It is kinda strange that you Dac does not use the i2s clock, dont really see the point in using i2s just for data transmission. But in that case you most probably wont benefit from the wordclock. Maybe via aes/spdif. 

Anyway, it's better to ask the manufacturer directly, only they can give you a clear & sure answer.


----------



## rb2013

Quote:


prot said:


> @rurika
> Guess I have the same Qs as rb2013: is that tanly a "special edition"? And if yes how much and what wclock input freqs does it support?
> 
> @rb2013
> May have been this rubidium http://m.shenzhenaudio.com/rbd-rubidium-clock-for-soundaware-d100-pro-deluxe-edition.html. Dont know any extra details though .. may be better to go the ebay route, plenty second hand rubidiums around.


 
 Yes  - that is a very interesting rubidium clock for a reasonable cost.  I know to some folks this may seem ridiculus - to push for such high levels of performance at these price levels.  But I've seen such amazing improvements in just 5 yrs with these USB interfaces - it bowls me over (my first was the M2Tech Hiface SPDIF - but before even USB 2.0 Asyn was available - I ran an RME Fireface 800 with 1394b firewire).  As does the sound I'm now getting for a few hundred bucks and a couple of hours soldering.  So why not take it to the next level.  The technology is there - see Esoteric, Antelope and Apogee just to name a few - this atomic clocking will filter down to these low cost units eventually - I just hope to give it a slight nudge forward.
  


rurika said:


> I talked to him(Tan) and just told him that I want a wclk-in feature too and that's it. For the freqs. I can't remember I will ask Tan soon.
> Actually he told me the wclk-in was design for SDIF-3(DSD) only not for PCM. But since another customer told him "it would be great if it work with PCM too" so he just made it to work for both of them (I'm not sure how).
> 
> After I read about the Rubidium clock for soundaware. I might try one as well. (If it works with Tanly)


 
 That is confusing - I hope it works.  Any word on clock input frequencies?  Both Antelope and Esoteric have built external clocks with both OXCO and Atomic crystals.  So they are quite adpatable.
  


rurika said:


> Well, I'm wondering. If my dac doesn't have an i2s clk pin input. Does it have benefit to add a rubidium clock in my Tanly ??


 
 Great question - this forum is breaking new ground.
  
 Currently the sota clock available. .05ppb accuracy:
  
 Esoteric G-01 Master Clock Generator


> Ultrahigh precision rubidium oscillator installed as the heart of the unit  An American-made rubidium oscillator with a frequency precision of ±0.05ppb＝±0.00005 ppm is used as the core of this extraordinarily accurate timing device. This oven-controlled oscillator signiﬁcantly improves the performance of the clock generator. This oscillator module has been manufactured to ESOTERIC’s demanding speciﬁcations with sound quality and stability being given top priority. The sound quality one would expect from our best model in the master clock generator series has been achieved.


 


> 10MHz clock and 22.5792MHz master clock outputs  G-01 can output a 10 MHz clock (sine wave or square wave) as well as 22.5792 and 24.576 MHz master clocks that are compatible with ESOTERIC’s original “Direct Master Clock Link.”


 
 http://www.esoteric-usa.com/Products/masterclocks/G-01.php


----------



## rb2013

One note on this ubiquitous chart we see from DIYinHK on comparing the NDK SD to the CCHD-957 and use of a logarithmic scale for the Y axis.
  
 That scale is used because of the range of values and because it graphically over states the lower frequencies (the SD's strengths).
  
 For example the range of 1Hz to 10Hz is shown to be equal to the ranges of 1kHz to 10kHz and 10kHz to 100kHz.  The first half of the graph is 1Hz to 1kHz - the second half 1kHz to 1Mhz.  It's plain silly equate those ranges as equally important to sound quality - especially due to the measuring issues at the very lowest frequencies.
  
 But it does make the NDK SD look better.


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


>


 
  
 OCXO claims its stability is better than all the other crystal oscillators, and OCXO are widely used in satellite, advanced telecom communication and etc.
  
 From my understanding, this graph uses the performance of an OCXO as a standard, and shows us that the capability of a NZ2520SD/NDK could closely match with the performance of the OCXO. From our observation, there is no doubt the curve of NZ2520SD/NDK is right next to the OCXO's curve.
  
 So, for those users who is looking for an oscillator, and its performance is closely matched with OCXO, but only at a small friction of its cost, they can surely opt for NZ2520SD/NDK.
  
 For other users may looking for an oscillator which could *even knock out* OCXO at certain range, well.....it seems CCHD-957 would not be a bad idea.
  
  
 Regards,
  
  
 Riemann


----------



## b0bb

hgpsemaj said:


> For other users may looking for an oscillator which could *even knock out* OCXO at certain range, well.....it seems CCHD-957 would not be a bad idea.


 
 I use the CCHD-957 and its close cousin CCHD-950 for the following reasons
 1)Quite easy to obtain in the frequencies for digital audio use
 2)Jitter spec is better than some OCXOs
 3)Easier to handle than the NDKs
 4)In my applications I prefer them over the NDK and the ultralow jitter (82fs) Crystek CCHD-575, sound quality wise


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> OCXO claims its stability is better than all the other crystal oscillators, and OCXO are widely used in satellite, advanced telecom communication and etc.
> 
> From my understanding, this graph uses the performance of an OCXO as a standard, and shows us that the capability of a NZ2520SD/NDK could closely match with the performance of the OCXO. From our observation, there is no doubt the curve of NZ2520SD/NDK is right next to the OCXO's curve.
> 
> ...


 

 Well I believe that NDK and DIYinHK may be confusing the issues regarding digital clocks.  The outstanding performance feature on OCXO's is not their low phase noise - but timing accuracy.  So the use of the phase noise numbers in their chart - using OCXO as a reference is IMO a bit misleading.  The CCHD-957 has better phase noise from 2.5kHz up - better then many OCXO clocks. 
  
 Where the OCXO clocks excel is in much greater timing accuracy and drift.  For example on this Connor-Winfield OX200-SC the timing is 1.5 ppb plus or minus, and never to exceed 25ppb.  The drift is - well I'll quote their datasheet: http://www.digikey.com/product-highlights/us/en/connor-winfield-ox200-ocxo-series/3557


> Aging is specified to be less than 0.2 ppb/day after 30 days and 60 ppb total after 5 years. Frequency tolerance for 5 years is guaranteed to be less than 0.1 ppm. Stability over 5% voltage or load variations is less than ±0.3 ppb.


 
 The timing accuracy on the 957 is 25ppm and the NDK SD 30ppm.  These are orders of magnitude worse then just this OCXO.
 I see that both NDK and DIYinHK don't show a comparison chart of timing accuracy vs the OCXO's - it would not be flattering to their clocks.
  
 It's like comparing your Mustang GT's cornering ability to a Top Fuel Dragster.  And saying it's 'faster'.
  
 Certain Satellite and communications systems need this greater timing accuracy.  GPS satellites for example, have to have timing so precise they have to account for relativistic time dilation from the Earth's gravitational curvature of space/time.  That's exceedingly fine.
  
 So the real question for audio uses - what's more important - clock accuracy or low phase noise?  The stock clocks in the Gustard are .1ppm vs the NDK's 30ppm - but with higher phase noise of -125dB at 1kHz vs the SD's -148dB.  And from folks reports here the NDK's sound better - even with much less timing accuracy.  The conclusion one would have to draw is phase noise trumps timing accuracy.  Then the use in that graph of OCXO's phase noise is irrelevant.
  
 BTW the phase noise of the above OCXO OX200-SC is -145dB at 1 kHz.  So better then the stock Gustard clocks - but not as good as the NDK's.


----------



## abartels

*Something interesting (for the ones who are interested in mathematics icw specs and measurements XO's)*
  
 Clock (CLK) Jitter and Phase Noise Conversion
  
 Abstract: This application note on clock (CLK) signal quality describes how to measure jitter and phase-noise, including period jitter, cycle-to-cycle jitter, and accumulated jitter.* It describes the relationship between period jitter and phase-noise spectrum and how to convert the phase-noise spectrum to the period jitter*. 
  
 Clock (CLK) signals are required in almost every integrated circuit or electrical system. In today's world, digital data is processed or transmitted at higher and higher speeds, while the conversions between analog and digital signals are done at higher resolutions and higher data rates. These functions require engineers to pay special attention to the quality of clock signals.
  
 Clock quality is usually described by jitter or phase-noise measurements. The often-used jitter measurements are period jitter, cycle-to-cycle jitter, and accumulated jitter. Among these jitters, period jitter is most often encountered. Clock phase-noise measurement examines the spectrum of the clock signal.
  
 This article first briefly reviews the measurement setups for clock period jitter and phase noise. The relationship between the period jitter and the phase-noise spectrum is then described. Finally, a simple equation to convert the phase-noise spectrum to the period jitter is presented.
  
 Period Jitter and Phase Noise: Definition and Measurement
 Period Jitter
  
 Period jitter (JPER) is the time difference between a measured cycle period and the ideal cycle period. Due to its random nature, this jitter can be measured peak-to-peak or by root of mean square (RMS). We begin by defining the clock rising-edge crossing point at the threshold VTH as TPER(n), where n is the time domain index, as shown in Figure 1. Mathematically, we can describe JPER as:
  
 Equation 1.
  
 where T0 is the period of the ideal clock cycle. Since the clock frequency is constant, the random quantity JPER must have a zero mean. Thus the RMS of JPER can be calculated by:
  
 Equation 2.
  
 where <•> is the expected operation. Figure 1 shows the relation between JPER and TPER in a clock waveform.
  
 Figure 1. Period jitter measurement.
 Figure 1. Period jitter measurement.
  
 Phase-Noise Spectrum
  
 To understand the definition of the phase-noise spectrum L(f), we first define the power spectrum density of a clock signal as SC(f). The SC(f) curve results when we connect the clock signal to a spectrum analyzer. The phase-noise spectrum L(f) is then defined as the attenuation in dB from the peak value of SC(f) at the clock frequency, fC, to a value of SC(f) at f. Figure 2 illustrates the definition of L(f).
  
 Figure 2. Definition of phase-noise spectrum.
 Figure 2. Definition of phase-noise spectrum.
  
 Mathematically, the phase-noise spectrum L(f) can be written as: 
  
 Equation 3.
  
 Remember that L(f) presents the ratio of two spectral amplitudes at the frequencies, fC and f. The meaning of L(f) will be discussed in next section.
  
 Period Jitter (JPER) Measurement
  
 There are different instruments used to measure the period jitter. People most commonly use a high-precision digital oscilloscope to conduct the measurement. When the clock jitter is more than 5 times larger than the oscilloscope's triggering jitter, the clock jitter can be acquired by triggering at a clock rising edge and measuring it at the next rising edge. Figure 3 shows a splitter generating the trigger signal from the clock under test. This method eliminates the internal jitter from the clock source in the digital oscilloscope.
  
 Figure 3. Self-trigger jitter measurement setup.
 Figure 3. Self-trigger jitter measurement setup.
  
 It is possible for the duration of scope trigger-delay to be longer than the period of a high-frequency clock. In that case, one must insert a delay unit in the setup that delays the first rising edge after triggering so that it can be seen on the screen.
  
 There are more accurate methods for measuring jitter. Most of these approaches use a post-sampling process of the data sampled from high-speed digital oscilloscopes to estimate the jitter according to the definitions in Equations 1 or 2. This post-sampling approach provides high-precision results, but it can only be performed with high-end digital oscilloscopes [2, 3].
  
 Phase-Noise Spectrum L(f) Measurement
  
 As Equation 3 showed above, L(f) can be measured with a spectrum analyzer directly from the spectrum, SC(f), of the clock signal. This approach, however, is not practical. The value of L(f) is usually larger than 100dBc which exceeds the dynamic range of most spectrum analyzers. Moreover, fC can sometimes be higher than the input-frequency limit of the analyzer. Consequently, the practical way to measure the phase noise uses a setup that eliminates the spectrum energy at fC. This approach is similar to the method of demodulating a passband signal to baseband. Figure 4 illustrates this practical setup and the signal-spectrum changes at different points in the test setup.
  
 Figure 4. Practical phase-noise measurement setup.
 Figure 4. Practical phase-noise measurement setup.
  
 The structure described in Figure 4 is typically called a carrier-suppress demodulator. In Figure 4, n(t) is the input to the spectrum analyzer. We will next show that by scaling down the spectrum of n(t) properly, we can obtain the dBc value of L(f).
  
 Relation between RMS Period Jitter and Phase Noise
 Using the Fourier series expansion, it can be shown that a square-wave clock signal has the same jitter behavior as its base harmonic sinusoid signal. This property makes the jitter analysis of a clock signal much easier. A sinusoid signal of a clock signal with phase noise can be written as:
  
 Equation 4.
  
 and the period jitter is:
  
 Equation 5.
  
 From Equation 4 we see that the sinusoid signal is phase modulated by the phase noise Θ(t). As the phase noise is always much smaller than π/2, Equation 4 can be approximated as:
  
 Equation 6.
  
 The spectrum of C(t) is then:
  
 Equation 7.
  
 where SΘ(f) is the spectrum of q(t). Using the definition of L(f), we can find:
  
 Equation 8.
  
 This illustrates that L(f) is just SΘ(f) presented in dB. This also explains the real meaning of L(f).
  
 We have now shown that the setup in Figure 4 enables the measurement of L(f). Furthermore, one can see that the signal C(t) is mixed with cos(2πfCt) and filtered by the lowpass filter. Thus, we can express the signal n(t) at the input of the spectrum analyzer as:
  
 Equation 9.
  
 The spectrum appears on the spectrum analyzer as:
  
 Equation 10.
  
 Therefore we can obtain the phase noise spectrum SΘ(f) and L(f):
  
 Equation 11.
  
 Then L(f) can be read in dBc directly from the spectrum of n(t) after scaled down by A²/4.
  
 From Equation 11, the mean square (MS) of Θ(t) can be calculated by:
  
 Equation 12.
  
 Following Equation 5 above, we finally show the relationship between the period jitter, JPER, and the phase noise spectrum, L(f), as:
  
 Equation 13.
  
 In some applications like SONET and 10Gb, engineers only monitor the jitter at a certain frequency band. In such a case, the RMS JPER within a certain band can be calculated by:
  
 Equation 14.
  
 Approximation of RMS JPER from L(f)
 The phase noise usually can be approximated by a linear piece-wise function when the frequency axis of L(f) is in log scale. In such a case, L(f) can be written as:
  
 Equation 15.
  
 where K-1 is the number of the pieces of the piece-wise function and U(f) is the step function. See Figure 5.
  
 Figure 5. A typical L(f) function.
 Figure 5. A typical L(f) function.
  
 If we substitute L(f) shown in Equation 15 into Equation 14, we have:
  
 Equation 16.
  
 To illustrate this, the following table presents a piecewise L(f) function with fC = 155.52MHz.
  
 Table 1. Measurements of Function L(f).
 Frequency (Hz)    10    1000    3000    10000
 L(f) (dBc)    -58    -118    -132    -137
  
 Next we calculate the ai and bi by:
  
 Equation 17.
  
 The results are listed in Table 2.
  
 Table 2. Parameters to Present L(f) as a Piecewise Function.
 i    1    2    3    4
 fi (Hz)    10    1000    3000    10000
 ai (dBc/decade)    -30    -29.34    -9.5    N/A
 bi (dBc)    -58    -118    -132    -137
  
 Substituting the Table 2 values into Equation 16, we get:
  
 Equation 18.
  
 The RMS jitter of the same clock measured by the setup in Figure 4 at the same band is 4.2258ps. Therefore, the proposed approximation approach for converting phase noise to jitter has proved quite accurate. In this example, the error is less than 4%.
  
 Equation 16 can also be used to estimate the required jitter limit when the phase-noise spectrum envelope is given.
  
 A simple spreadsheet file has been posted with the equation coded as an example.
  
 Summary
 This article demonstrates the exact mathematical relationship between jitter measured in time and the phase-noise measured in frequency. Many engineers concerned with signal integrity and system timing frequently question this relationship. The results presented here clearly answer the question. Based on that mathematical relationship, we proposed a method for estimating the period jitter from the phase-noise spectrum. Engineers can use this method to quickly establish a quantitative relationship between the two measurements, which will help greatly in the application or design of systems and circuits. 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
 Regards,
  
  
 Alex


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Hi Alex,
> 
> Did you try the FG's versus the HW's in the Gustard?  Did you prefer the FG's?
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Bob,
  
 Sorry for late response, didn't see your post,,,,
  
 I didn't try the HW versions, all over the internet people prefer FG, so I just bought them 
 Maybe I will replace the Pana's this week with the FG's, hope I have time to do so,,,
  
 Btw, with a bit of good luck i will receive 2x R-Core transformer for MX-U8 within one week or so.
 I did build the DIYINHK 0.8uV noise psu, have to build 2 more xo's with adapterboards, but, greatest problem is that I have to make  "an external IEC320 inlet".
 There's not enough room to place the 2x R-Core R-20 transformers, IEC320 inlet is in their way, so I have to make a wooden block in which I wil mount the
 IEC320 inlet. This will off course result in an "external IEC320 inlet", but will give me just enough room to place the two R-Core transformers (28VA each).
  
 In the meantime I did exchange the BC 2200uF-25 caps with FG 2200uF-16V, they fit nicely.
  
 Pics and SQ impressions will follow as soon as possible!
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> *Something interesting (for the ones who are interested in mathematics icw specs and measurements XO's)*
> 
> Clock (CLK) Jitter and Phase Noise Conversion
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Alex,
  
 Interesting article - so if Phase Noise and 'Jitter' (cycle to cycle timing errors) are directly related - how can a TXCO clock (NDK-SD) with 30ppm (that's million) have lower phase noise then a OXCO with a 2.5 ppb (that's billion) accuacy?  That's orders of magnitude better?
  
 On measuring phase noise and more detailed info on the different types of jitter - Here is a link to the 15 page white paper from SiTime:
 http://www.sitime.com/support2/documents/AN10007-Jitter-and-measurement.pdf
  
 On Phase Noise:


> 2.4 Phase Jitter Phase noise is usually described as either a set of noise values at different frequency offsets (e.g., -60 dBc/Hz at 20KHz and -95 dBc/Hz at 10MHz), or as a continuous noise plot over a range of frequencies. Phase jitter is the integration of phase noises over a certain spectrum and expressed in seconds. In a square wave, most of the energies are located at the carrier frequency. However, some signal energies are “leaked-out” over a range of frequencies on both sides of the carrier. Phase jitter is the amount of phase noise energy contained between two offset frequencies relative to the carrier (fc). Figure 6 is an unfiltered phase noise plot and the shaded areas represent the phase jitter between frequencies f1 and f2.


 

 From Silicon Labs 12 page white paper "*Clock Division with Jitter and Phase Noise Measurements*" :
 http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/Clock-Division-WP.pdf
  
 On measuring Phase Noise:


> *The rate at which the jitter increases becomes more pronounced at the lowest output frequencies.* Let’s examine the two sources of the increased RMS phase noise values: instrument noise floor and aliasing.
> 
> *Instrument Noise Floor and Phase Noise Integration As mentioned earlier, when measuring the phase noise of very low-jitter clocks at low clock frequencies, the instrument noise floor can become the limiting factor of a measurement.* *At some point, you are measuring your equipment, not the device under test. Even though the phase noise curves are all getting monotonically smaller as the clock frequency decreases, the RMS edge jitter remains almost constant because the phase noise integration process uses the clock period to scale the RMS jitter values*. To illustrate how this occurs, let’s look at the process of phase noise integration to produce an RMS jitter value. Most modern phase noise equipment produces a file that that has two columns (typically a .CSV file). One of the two columns gives the frequency offset from the clock (or carrier) frequency in Hertz. The other column gives the phase noise values at that offset frequency in dBc/Hz. In this manner, the two columns contain data point pairs that describe the phase noise at a given offset from the clock frequency. The process of integration involves summing up the area under the curve for all of the frequency offset points after converting the dBc/Hz values to linear values in the following manner:


 
 So they are saying these very low frequency phase noise measurements are not valid in measuring the clock alone - but are measuring the instrument as well.
  
 Note:  As you can see above this effect becomes pronounced at 100Hz and below.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Sorry for late response, didn't see your post,,,,
> 
> ...


 

 Alex,
  
 Nice!  Looking forward to hearing about the SQ results! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

Advantages of FIFO FGPA buffers on jitter attentuation done right- +1 for the Tanly:
  
 TotalDAC d1-digital reclocker - $3950 Euro:
 http://www.totaldac.com/D1-digital-eng.htm
  
  
10KHz sinewave spectrum without d1-digital reclocker: 
A lot of spurious noise is visible around the 10KHz sinewave, this is the high jitter.
10KHz sinewave spectrum when using the d1-digital reclocker:


----------



## rurika

rb2013 said:


> Any word on clock input frequencies?  Both Antelope and Esoteric have built external clocks with both OXCO and Atomic crystals.  So they are quite adpatable.


 
  
 I just got a word from Tam. He said for sdif-3 (DSD) is use 44.1 kHz freq. The PCM is use 44.1 kHz if you play 44.1 kHz file, 48 kHz if you play 48 kHz file and so on til 384.


----------



## rb2013

rurika said:


> I just got a word from Tam. He said for sdif-3 (DSD) is use 44.1 kHz freq. The PCM is use 44.1 kHz if you play 44.1 kHz file, 48 kHz if you play 48 kHz file and so on til 384.


 
 I'm still a little unclear on how to use an external clock with the spdif-3 feature.  So you need an external clock that outputs 1 44.1kHz freq?

 That makes sense - unfortunately most rubidium external clocks output a std 10 Mhz clock.
  
 Another member sent me this link:
 http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/rbd-rubidium-clock-for-soundaware-d100-pro-deluxe-edition.html
  
 So here is the clock out on the Musical Paradise atomic clock:


 Which feed the D100 Pro Deluxe clock inputs on the top:

  
 So it would be great if Tanly could provide clock inputs like that -then have them as slave/master option over the DAC  clock feed.
  
 PS Or better yet have the Tanly accept a 10mHz clock input then have a multiplier on board.


----------



## rb2013

Here is another rubidium clocks with complete specs - the phase noise numbers look decent:
 http://jeelabs.org/2012/03/11/rubidium-clock-part-2/
  
 1ppb stability - 1kHz PN -145dB.
  
 Clock module $200 on Ebay
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/10mhz-1pps-Rubidium-Atomic-Frequency-standard-FE-5680A-/170475988107?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b129248b
  
 PS Or in lieu of the Atomic clock a double OXCO - with excellent phase noise numbers:
 Like this one (also available in 10mHz oputput)
  
*Morion 10mhz Double oven ultra precision OCXO 2x10-12*
  
 $45 on Ebay
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/morion-10mhz-Double-oven-ultra-precision-OCXO-2x10-12-/180588164356?tfrom=170475988107&tpos=top&ttype=price&talgo=undefined


----------



## maeveth

Quick question for everybody - Do all of the outputs work simultaneously on the U12?


----------



## prot

maeveth said:


> Quick question for everybody - Do all of the outputs work simultaneously on the U12?




AFAIK, yes. I can only test AES & SPDIF in my setup and they are both working simultaneously.

rb2013
I'd ask for 10mhz input since the most rubidiums only provide that one.
Lots of relatively cheap rubidiums on ebay but quite hard to figure out which one is good ... plus, one needs a super power supply, another >$300 I guess. All in all, prolly an ~$1000 project ... still better than the ready-made but outrageously overpriced $10000 clocks from Antelope & co.


----------



## maeveth

prot said:


> AFAIK, yes. I can only test AES & SPDIF in my setup and they are both working simultaneously.


 
  
 Perfect - those are the outputs i wanted to work at the same time anyways  Thanks!


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> AFAIK, yes. I can only test AES & SPDIF in my setup and they are both working simultaneously.
> 
> @rb2013
> I'd ask for 10mhz input since the most rubidiums only provide that one.
> Lots of relatively cheap rubidiums on ebay but quite hard to figure out which one is good ... plus, one needs a super power supply, another >$300 I guess. All in all, prolly an ~$1000 project ... still better than the ready-made but outrageously overpriced $10000 clocks from Antelope & co.


 

 Yes that's a good point - I think the PS might be a bit cheaper - they seem to have a 12VDC standard. The Musical Paradise clock is a turnkey atomic - would love to see it with the cover off and some specs $570 seems very reasonable.  It does some type of internal conversion of clock signal to audio clock frequencies.
  
 And you could go the OXCO route for much cheaper -maybe $300-$350.  That's the point with an external clock input it makes clock comparisons easier and standard.
  
 The Antelope and Apogee are coming down in price.  Eventually this high level studio technology will be available cheaply for home audio.
  
 The OXCO Antelope Audio Isochrome OCX is 'only' $1295. Maybe $70-$800 used? 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antelope-Isochrone-OCX-Master-Clock-/361296736165?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541ef6afa5
  
 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/OCX?adpos=1o2&creative=54989979481&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKEAjwndqrBRC16IyeqPicp3ASJAB-vB-cBoQCsebE5RvptKmkPWPbDJ_vM8fUZ2qE3BpekIFylBoCesTw_wcB
  
 Has mulitple clock outputs so could input to USB interface and DAC at the same time

  


> *Antelope Audio Isochrone OCX at a Glance:*
> 
> 
> Oven Controlled Discrete Transistor Crystal Oscillator for lowest jitter.​
> ...


 
  
 It can then accept the rubidium for greater accuracy and still provide usable clock frequencies.
  
 PS FYI From Gearslutz on the Antelope Clock https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/34787-big-ben-vs-antelope-audio-isochrone-ocx.html:


> Originally Posted by *rentedroom*
> _I picked up the Antlope clock about 2 weeks ago and all I can say is that as soon as we connected it we heard dramatic changes in the sound quality. It sounds more cohesive, the top end is smooth and the low end is clearer than the Big Ben or any clock I have ever used. When we switched back and forth beetween the Big Ben and the Antelope, The Big Ben sounded distorted and harsh. I am not used to having such a dramatic change from a clock, when I first tried the Big Ben , I thought it sounded a little better and took care of some pops and clicks and maybe was a little smoother. But the Antelope clock is incredible. I also gave CD's with A/B mixes to engineers in the studio, without telling them what the differnce is and they both picked the Antelope mix over the Big Ben, everybody saying that it was easier to listen to and it sounded polished. Anybody who has been in the studio has been floored of what a clock can do for audio. If you have any other questions , please don't hesitate to ask._


 
   
 PSS now this feature has me really intrigued!  No need for external clock input - can re-time spdif rca coax!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Quote:


> If you want a great master clock for your whole studio, the OCX.
> 
> If you want to use an existing piece of gear such as an A/D converter or digital console as your master clock, the DA will reclock it to remove any jitter and then distribute it to your other gear. It can also take an AES/EBU or S/PDIF signal and regenerate master clock from that, which is pretty cool.


----------



## rb2013

Why the obsession with clocks?
  
 http://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/68/isochrone-ocx-10m-clock-generators/
 The 10M is the Antelope Rubidium Clock (running at 10MhZ) plugs into the back of the OCXO Antelope OCX


> Back in Allen's studio, we hooked up the 10M to the OCX (a simple BNC patch), threw up one of Allen's mixes, and the whole world changed. It felt like there were about five extra spaces in the stereo field where one might have placed an element of the mix, and elements we hadn't heard before stood out plain as day. Things like acoustic guitar finger squeaks, the singer's moist mouth mutterings, more of a ride cymbal's over and under-tones, aspects of a kick drum's raspy attack, reverb tails, tape-echo trails, and even compression artifacts were showing up, seemingly from out of thin air. The soundstage gained a depth that seemed to reduce masking between elements that occupied the same frequency range, as if they instinctively found space in front of and behind each other based on how wet or dry they were. Apparent loudness went up a notch, without changing the volume of anything (perhaps a psychoacoustic phenomenon-we're not sure), and there was noticeable low-end extension. Beyond the details, the whole of the parts was a total pleasure to listen to and evoked a far more vivid image of all aspects of whatever mix we put up. The10M just made the music far more engaging and emotional (and only made the current MP3 paradigm seem more criminal). In fact, with everything we put up, the 10M was a mind-blower, but on one track, we actually found ourselves more interested in the lyrics. Fascinating. A stripped-down, crawling version of Neil Young's "Harvest Moon" by the nomadic singer Jess Lee with Allen backing on a simple organ part was rendered in such detail with the 10M that individual harmonic overtones in Jess's voice (tracked with an SM58) almost seemed like individual sonic elements.


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> Why the obsession with clocks?
> 
> ...




Cause we have nothing better to do ?


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> Why the obsession with clocks?
> 
> ...


 

 I for one have always been obsessed with clocks...and um, time.....
  


  https://youtu.be/JwYX52BP2Sk


----------



## abartels

Hi Guys,
  
 For the members who were thinking about buying a good RJ45 I2S cable, or a good RJ45 cable to connect ControlPC with AudioPC (JPlay),
 today I got my TeleGärtner MFP8 RJ45 connectrors together with 1meter Lappkabel CAT7a.
  
 AudioQuest uses them too , AudioQuest Vodka Ethernet Cable and Diamond Ethernet Cable
 http://www.audiostream.com/content/audioquest-vodka-ethernet-cable-and-diamond-ethernet-cable
  
  
 Don't know if they are available in the US, maybe try here:
 http://www.machine-spare-parts.com/Network-RJ45-Plug-telegaertner-en.html
  
 I use it for connecting ControlPC with AudioPC in dual pc-mode (JPlay6).
 It was an improvement which immediately was noticeable.
  
 Plugs cost about €15 1pcs and cable about €5 1meter. Dont need special tools to assemble cable!
  

  

  

  

  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## abartels

stuartmc said:


> I for one have always been obsessed with clocks...and um, time.....
> 
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/JwYX52BP2Sk


 
  
 Nice Stuart, one of the albums i LOVE


----------



## rurika

Hi, abartels.
 I also use the TeleGärtner with Viablue ethernet cable EP-7S (solid core) to connect my ControlPC and AudioPC (jplay).

  
 The EP-7S sound better than EP-7 (braided). Even EP-7 sounds much more better than cheapo cat7 ethernet cable.


----------



## ginetto61

Hi Guys !
i have a question a little OT.   About *noise measurements*.
What do you use to measure noise this low ?   
Can you get noise spectra with wide bandwidth with your set-up ?
I am studying the issue and it looks very very challenging.  And expensive as well.
Thanks a lot in advance for any kind and very vluable advice.
Kind regards,
gino


----------



## abartels

rurika said:


> Hi, abartels.
> I also use the TeleGärtner with Viablue ethernet cable EP-7S (solid core) to connect my ControlPC and AudioPC (jplay).
> 
> 
> The EP-7S sound better than EP-7 (braided). Even EP-7 sounds much more better than cheapo cat7 ethernet cable.


 
  
 Hi Rurika,
  
 Thanks for the great tip, the Lappkabel is not bad at all, but i'm sure, when looking at specs EP-7S, it will definitely be better than Lappkabel.
 The Lappkabel has only 1 braided shield, and off course the 4x2 individual screens, which is CAT7 spec, but not a 100% total screen.
  
 I will try the EP-7S since it's almost same price, €7,20 only per meter it's a very good deal! I can even order it in The Netherlands 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Alex


----------



## rurika

I tried to contact W4S and asked them about their I2S input and no response from them. I just want to make sure before buy a clock generator. (like Isochrone OCX)
  
 Well, I might looking for a new dac soon.
  
 Just found a good article about external clock.
  
 https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun10/articles/masterclocks.htm


----------



## rb2013

rurika said:


> I tried to contact W4S and asked them about their I2S input and no response from them. I just want to make sure before buy a clock generator. (like Isochrone OCX)
> 
> Well, I might looking for a new dac soon.
> 
> ...


 

 Although a few years old (2010) - that is an excellent article.  It does point out the issues regarding the use of an external clock (like connecting induced jitter).  There was a great debate on CA back in 2010 on external clocks for home audio use.
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/use-external-word-clock-5719/
  
 And I agree that the on board clocks should be the best available, and is the easiest/cheapest solution - but I'm still curious about the SQ improvements with a better OXCO or Atomic clock.
  
 Some of the comments made there like the clocking on the USB device not being important I think have been shown to be wrong.  The clocking on the USB interface maybe just as important as the DAC itself.
  
 But other parts of the USB interface are also critically important.  Otherwise why would the MX-U8 stock sound so much better then the U12 stock (when they both have the same approx. clocks)?  At least in my system - the SQ of the slightly modded MX-U8 is truly extraordinary.  I'm still bowled over as to the improvement over the previous 6 USB interfaces I had.
  
 PS And from a sound perspective (versus jitter measurements) look at the jump in the ranking of the M2Tech EVO after an external clock was added in the CA shootout.  From 10th (score of 90) to 3rd (score of 100) and that EVO clock was not an OXCO or certainly not a rubidium.  Kinda' refutes what the thread (and SOS article) was proposing - ie USB interfaces clocks are not that important, and the external clocks just have to many added jitter causing parts to be helpful.
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/
  


> *barrows*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

Just a little info on the M2tech EVO external Clock - not very impressive for $500.
  
 http://www.m2tech.biz/it/evo_clock.html


> *Evo Clock*
> 
> *Precision clock generator*
> 
> ...


----------



## ginetto61

Quote:


rb2013 said:


> ...    At least in my system - the SQ of the slightly modded MX-U8 is truly extraordinary.  I'm still bowled over as to the improvement over the previous 6 USB interfaces I had ....


 
  
 Hi and sorry to bother you.
 Could you kindly list very briefly the mods you performed on your Melodious ?
 I know that there is now a dedicated thread of this nice converter i also own and want to mod.
 Sorry but i have lost in this long thread the trace to your posts about the modding.
 Just for info i am about to test it with some *batteries as power supply*,  even if i do not know how much it consumes.
 Thanks in advance for any useful advice.
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

As somebody doomed to remain stock for various reasons I'm glad I went with the MX-U8 as stock several experienced posters seem to feel it does indeed sound better than the U12 in stock form. While I can't say I've tested with and without the MX-U8, I can say that my system sounds very good so at least no harm has been done! Just wondering if something like the Schiit Wyrd would add any real value in my system?


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> As somebody doomed to remain stock for various reasons I'm glad I went with the MX-U8 as stock several experienced posters seem to feel it does indeed sound better than the U12 in stock form. While I can't say I've tested with and without the MX-U8, I can say that my system sounds very good so at least no harm has been done!
> Just wondering if something like the Schiit Wyrd would add any real value in my system?


 
 Hi and excuse me a very straight question.
*Have you compared the sound using the MX-U8 before your M51 and without ?*
 using the usb port on the M51 instead of the Melodious as un interface sub to AES
 i am very interested to know the outcome in case and what option do you prefer
 I am using AES/EBU as well on my dac
  
 Speaking of usb to usb device the* UpTone Regen *is getting very positive reviews.
  
http://uptoneaudio.com/products/usb-regen
  
 Thanks  a lot,  gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

Hi Gino, I am using AES out from the U8, but it is so difficult to compare to just the M51 USB that I'm not sure I will ever do the comparison. I might, but considering that you need to switch source in both the Sound control panel, and in JRiver, and change the cables, that takes enough time that I'm not sure audio memory (at least mine) is accurate enough that I would hear any subtle differences. If I could do it more easily I would be quite tempted, but with likely about 5 minutes involved in the switch, plus the fact that I would be rushing and that gets your nervous system more activated I just wouldn't be confident in what I hear. I might get help from my friend to try this as that way I wouldn't have to rush and get flustered doing all the work.
  
 I suppose if the differences between M51 alone and with the U8 were significant I would easily detect these differences, but I don't get the sense that the sound changes that much.


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> Hi Gino, I am using AES out from the U8, but it is so difficult to compare to just the M51 USB that I'm not sure I will ever do the comparison. I might, but considering that you need to switch source in both the Sound control panel, and in JRiver, and change the cables, that takes enough time that I'm not sure audio memory (at least mine) is accurate enough that I would hear any subtle differences. If I could do it more easily I would be quite tempted, but with likely about 5 minutes involved in the switch, plus the fact that I would be rushing and that gets your nervous system more activated I just wouldn't be confident in what I hear. I might get help from my friend to try this as that way I wouldn't have to rush and get flustered doing all the work.
> 
> *I suppose if the differences between M51 alone and with the U8 were significant I would easily detect these differences, but I don't get the sense that the sound changes that much.*


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable opinion.  I know that the M51 is very good and very transparent and therefore a very powerful tool for assessing the sound quality.
 I tried the U8 with an Apogee dac and heard the best sound out of my pc ever.
 Your opinion and some big difficulties i find in modding the U8 (especially internal space is a big constraint) make me thing again about the sanity of the idea.
 I could very well ruin a unit already very very good in stock form.
 I have just to solder some good ps caps and then i will listen again carefully.
 Thanks a lot again.  Kind regards,  gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

No worries Gino, always nice talking to you. Where do you live if you don't mind me asking? I like that on the Internet you can get to know people from all over the world.


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> No worries Gino, always nice talking to you. Where do you live if you don't mind me asking? I like that on the Internet you can get to know people from all over the world.


 
  
 Stavanger . Norge
  
http://www.stavanger-havn.no/_files/stavanger_havn.jpg
  
 but i am italian
 bye
 gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

ginetto61 said:


> Stavanger . Norge
> 
> http://www.stavanger-havn.no/_files/stavanger_havn.jpg
> 
> ...


 

 Very beautiful, you are lucky indeed. Something special about living near large water bodies.


----------



## ginetto61

sonic defender said:


> Very beautiful, you are lucky indeed. Something special about living near large water bodies.


 
  
 Yes a nice place ... but you do not see the T in the picture 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 a little cold ... and quite windy
 Barbados are better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Regards,  gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

ginetto61 said:


> Yes a nice place ... but you do not see the T in the picture
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I live in Ottawa so cold wind, snow, ice storms, hot humid summers, we get it all. I would try your digs for sure (but yah, I would be all over the Barbados).


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and sorry to bother you.
> Could you kindly list very briefly the mods you performed on your Melodious ?
> I know that there is now a dedicated thread of this nice converter i also own and want to mod.
> Sorry but i have lost in this long thread the trace to your posts about the modding.
> ...


 

 Hi Gino,
  
 Yes - I have three now.  One with the Nichicon HWs, One with the Nichicon Fine Golds, the other with 957 clocks.
  
 So far the FG sounds slightly better to me over the HW - but that sounds amazing too (both better then with the FC caps).  The FGs I had were left over from  my DAC60 Mod project so were the taller version - but I got them to fit by mounting sideways.  Not pretty but the SQ is exquisite.
  


 On the 3rd one  - I have the 957s in - and the unit fires up fine.  I can't the unit to lock.  I will try a different soldering method on the SMD to DIP board.  Ordered some new boards.
  
 Now these MX-U8 are finicky beasts!  One (and always has) unlock occasionally - no big deal - I just have to close Foobar and reopen (I have tried every trick in the book - driver re-installs, running w and w/o JPlay, KS even DS, different buffer sizes, etc...)  I have it min to once every few hours.
  
 The second never unlocks but has an occasional click/pop, about once every few hours.  Since I listen to LPs, not a big deal as.
  
 But the sound quality!  The best ever!  What detail and transparency - and that addictive inner lit quality to vocals.  I am blown away at what a damn USB interface can do.
  
 The addition of the ProArt Pro PB4x4's has helped as well.
  
 I would be will to try thr Tanly  - but it has to be with a guarantee.  And I have a second Gustard U12 for extensive mods when I have time.  The U12 is rock solid steady and trouble free.


----------



## rb2013

sonic defender said:


> As somebody doomed to remain stock for various reasons I'm glad I went with the MX-U8 as stock several experienced posters seem to feel it does indeed sound better than the U12 in stock form. While I can't say I've tested with and without the MX-U8, I can say that my system sounds very good so at least no harm has been done! Just wondering if something like the Schiit Wyrd would add any real value in my system?


 

 The Nichicon Fine Gold cap upgrade in the MX-U8 makes a significant sound quality improvement over the stock ones.  And it's an easy mod.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Hi Gino,
> Yes - I have three now.  One with the Nichicon HWs, One with the Nichicon Fine Golds, the other with 957 clocks.
> So far *the FG sounds slightly better to me over the HW *- but that sounds amazing too (both better then with the FC caps).  The FGs I had were left over from  my DAC60 Mod project so were the taller version - but I got them to fit by mounting sideways. * Not pretty but the SQ is exquisite*.


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot indeed for the very valuable advice.  I am very pleased to know that the Nichicon are very fine.  I am waiting some FG from Mouser.
 It will take a while because i have ordered other things there were absent in the store and chose the all together formula ( mains transformers mainly).
 The sheet on the transformer is the EMI shielding sheet ?
  


> On the 3rd one - I have the 957s in - and the unit fires up fine. I can't the unit to lock. I will try a different soldering method on the SMD to DIP board. Ordered some new boards. Now these MX-U8 are finicky beasts! One (and always has) unlock occasionally - no big deal - I just have to close Foobar and reopen (I have tried every trick in the book - driver re-installs, running w and w/o JPlay, KS even DS, different buffer sizes, etc...) I have it min to once every few hours.
> The second never unlocks but has an occasional click/pop,* about once every few hours*. Since I listen to LPs, not a big deal as.


 
 i did not do serious listening but the sound was very ok through HPs.
 I am using mostly a k501 and a headphone amp with XLR ins.
 I am always looking for a sound that is relaxed but also detailed.


> *But the sound quality! The best ever! What detail and transparency - and that addictive inner lit quality to vocals. I am blown away at what a damn USB interface can do. *


 
  
_*this is a very good news.*_ It says that the unit has a very high potential and it is fundamentally well designed and built.
  
 Quote:


> The addition of the ProArt Pro PB4x4's has helped as well.


 
  
 this instead confirms me that the mains noise filtering is not perfect in the U8.   Toroidals are not the best at this. I think some measurements could show that. 
  


> I would be will to try thr Tanly - but it has to be with a guarantee. And I have a second Gustard U12 for extensive mods when I have time. The U12 is rock solid steady and trouble free.


 
  
 The Tanly seems indeed a better unit but it could be that the U8 can be improved from the already good stock version.
*Lately i have become a little obsessed with noise* (it is the last obsession)
 Noise can arrive from the mains and can be generated internally for instance from diodes or transformer vibration.
 When i see a toroidal i would like to see also some choke/filters before it because its noise filtering ability is poor.
 I will post at least the picture of the transformers when they will arrive .. i am sure that no one will fit inside this too small case unfortunately.
 Thanks a lot again.
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## Sonic Defender

rb2013 said:


> The Nichicon Fine Gold cap upgrade in the MX-U8 makes a significant sound quality improvement over the stock ones.  And it's an easy mod.


 

 Sweet, so when you say simple, what is involved. I assume removing solder then re-soldering. Sadly I have no soldering tools, but I might be able to find somebody who does.


----------



## stuartmc

sonic defender said:


> I live in Ottawa so cold wind, snow, ice storms, hot humid summers, we get it all. I would try your digs for sure (but yah, I would be all over the Barbados).



I'm over the Thousand Islands Bridge from Kingston in the little paradise called Watertown, NY. We have your weather with addition of massive amounts of lake effect snow. It's indoor sports and audio six months out of the year, lol.


----------



## prot

ginetto61 said:


> Yes a nice place ... but you do not see the T in the picture
> a little cold ... and quite windy
> Barbados are better :rolleyes:
> Regards,  gino




as someone who also lives in a northern EU cityport, I think I know what you are saying. 
Sonic Defender you may have really cold winters there but here is quite cold the whole freaking year ... like 10-15 celsius most of the time, windy and wet. Kinda boring and sometime depressing. Luckily the stereo sounds great 

rb2013
wow, you have like a full-throttle usb-spdif master test lab there


----------



## mylica

any news on x20?  Supposed to be out by June isnt?


----------



## rb2013

sonic defender said:


> Sweet, so when you say simple, what is involved. I assume removing solder then re-soldering. Sadly I have no soldering tools, but I might be able to find somebody who does.


 

 Yes - a very simple and desolder - remove - install - resolder.  Any stereo repair shop could do it in 15 mins.  I used a little teflon tubing to cover the exposed parts of the leads.
 You need 4.  I prefer silver solder.
 I don't think they make this value in a low profile - 25V 2200uf. $1.64 each
 http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?s=4637&FV=fff40002%2Cfff80009%2Cfffc01ed%2C34007e%2Cfc01ea%2C1140050&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&stock=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
  
 Or you could go with the LP HWs  -$1.87 each
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/UHW1E222MHD6/493-6802-ND/3664331


----------



## Benny-x

stuartmc said:


> I'm over the Thousand Islands Bridge from Kingston in the little paradise called Watertown, NY. We have your weather with addition of massive amounts of lake effect snow. It's indoor sports and audio six months out of the year, lol.


 
  
 Come on, man. I went to Whiteface skiing a few years ago and it was great. Watertown is a fine spot and that ferry across the lake is great. I'm living in Southern China now and the humidity and heat here blow. Then in the winter, it might only get to 5*C a for about a month, but there's no insulation in any of the buildings, so it feels colder than the lovely -30*C I used to get back on the east coast. The grass is always greener until you jump over the fence...
  
 As for this MX-U8, did anyone ever slip an HDMI-I2s board into it?? That's really what's keeping me on the U12. 
  
 And the Tanley, though it all looks good, no one has taken the plunge yet and found out, have they? Like everyone seems on board about how good it seems to be laid out internally (but not that USB input on the front), but no one has used one to actually know it the results are any good, right? I'd love to read some reviews if anyone has found any.


----------



## stuartmc

benny-x said:


> Come on, man. I went to Whiteface skiing a few years ago and it was great. Watertown is a fine spot and that ferry across the lake is great. I'm living in Southern China now and the humidity and heat here blow. Then in the winter, it might only get to 5*C a for about a month, but there's no insulation in any of the buildings, so it feels colder than the lovely -30*C I used to get back on the east coast. The grass is always greener until you jump over the fence...
> 
> As for this MX-U8, did anyone ever slip an HDMI-I2s board into it?? That's really what's keeping me on the U12.
> 
> And the Tanley, though it all looks good, no one has taken the plunge yet and found out, have they? Like everyone seems on board about how good it seems to be laid out internally (but not that USB input on the front), but no one has used one to actually know it the results are any good, right? I'd love to read some reviews if anyone has found any.




Just kidding about the weather. I grew up in these parts so hot and humid places aren't for me. I'll take a good hardy winter over a sweltering summer every time. National ski patroller here, so spent many a cold day at Whiteface.

I'm hooked on I2S too. That's why I pulled the trigger on the Tanly. Do a search in this thread and you will find my preliminary comments on its design and sound. It's the real deal!


----------



## MINORISUKE

benny-x said:


> .....
> 
> As for this MX-U8, did anyone ever slip an HDMI-I2s board into it?? That's really what's keeping me on the U12.
> 
> .....


 
 I suppose you need an output HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD instead of RJ45 I2S/DSD on MX-U8.
 I use the opposite direction, as my DAC accepts RJ45 I2S/DSD.  Tanly sells a small board that converts HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD --> "normal" I2S/DSD.


----------



## Benny-x

stuartmc said:


> I can certainly vouch for the excellent sound of the current Tanly. It's impossible for me to determine which of the ingredients makes the biggest improvement - power supply, crysteks, or buffer, but the total package is eargasm worthy. I have over 100 hours of play time on it now and it has retained every bit of the dynamic energy and transparency while losing that last little touch of treble grain.
> 
> I would love to get my hands on the Berkeley for a head to head. From what I've read of the Berkeley's sound signature, the Tanly could very well be its more affordable twin.


 
  
 Was this the comment you meant? You're right in to picking stuff off Taobao, eh? You lead the other Gustard stuff and now onto the Tanly. You also modded up your Gustard, so I guess I can count on some mods for the Tanly too   And so, since the last comment, any new news? How about your positive feedback review, when will that be up?
  
 And whatttttttttt? You're on ski patrol at Whiteface? That's awesome. Well, I guess you have to deal with ****heads as opposed to enjoying the skiing all the time, but damn, that was one nice mountain. I went all the way to the top and when I skied down I literally went through fog/clouds... There are a few steep faces there too. I and my brother had a hell of a time and will be going back for sure. With other places that you've skied, how would you rank it? And for sure, east coast weather FTW.


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> On the 3rd one  - I have the 957s in - and the unit fires up fine.  I can't the unit to lock.  I will try a different soldering method on the SMD to DIP board.  Ordered some new boards.


 
 Are using using 957s on all 3XO positions?
 If you are, I suggest putting back the one driving the XMOS and see if it works, pin 1 on the 957 is the enable pin and if this is grounded the XO output shuts off


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Are using using 957s on all 3XO positions?
> If you are, I suggest putting back the one driving the XMOS and see if it works, pin 1 on the 957 is the enable pin and if this is grounded the XO output shuts off


 

 No just the two clock positions.  Alex suggested I try and lower the buffer and latency settings.  That worked for him in replacing the U12's clocks with the NDKs.
 I used a thin wire soldered to the SMD pad then wrapped them around each leg of the DIP.  These I inserted into DIP recievers I soldered on the board..
  
 I was in a bit of a rush may may not have soldered the wire properly to the SMD pad (they are rather small).  I have some better SMD to DIP pads coming.
 Hopefully those will work.
  
 Hopefully, one day Crystek with offer a THT std DIP version of these versus just SMD.


----------



## abartels

Hi Bob,
  
  
 Try putting 0.01uF near xo, bypassing gnd/vcc
  
 Could be xo is oscillating
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## Benny-x

minorisuke said:


> I suppose you need an output HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD instead of RJ45 I2S/DSD on MX-U8.
> I use the opposite direction, as my DAC accepts RJ45 I2S/DSD.  Tanly sells a small board that converts HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD --> "normal" I2S/DSD.


 
  
 Yes, I have a PWD MkII DAC, so I need PS Audio style HDMI I2S. And yes, I saw Tanly's board, but unfortunately I need one going in the opposite direction, more akin to what DACLadder made for the Audio-gd Master 7 DAC. After hearing the positive feedback from the few Tanly buyers so far though, I'll probably just skip the MX-U8 and go straight to the Tanly. I'll see what else the Tanly buyers say over the next few months. Some time down the road I'd be happy to get a better converter than the U12. I'd still like to mod the U12 and see how it could be improved, but work is keeping me from that right now.
  
 Lots of parts to think about, but we'll see what I actually end up doing :-/
  
 First on my list is assembling my Dual-PC Jplay setup now that I have almost all of my pieces back in one place :-D


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> 
> Try putting 0.01uF near xo, bypassing gnd/vcc
> ...


 

 Thanks Alex - I will give that a try.


----------



## SandyBay

Hi Guys,
  
 Purchased U12 recently and it runs without any issue after installing proper drivers.
  
 I do have a question on specification of the U12. It states on the front plate that it support 24bit/384kHz mode however the driver (both Luckit 2.23 and the version 2.26 driver comes with my U12) only allow me to have maximum 24bit/192kHz option. Is this a limit on the driver side or did I miss something?
  
 Some of the lossless (DSD) music files I have show 1bit/348kHz in J River player but U12 shows 174kHz. Down sampling due to driver limit?


----------



## SodaBoy

sandybay said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Purchased U12 recently and it runs without any issue after installing proper drivers.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Not likely to be a driver issue, I can output 384khz in Jriver through the U12 i2s output without problems.
  
 What output are you using from the U12? S/PDIF and TOSLINK can only support up to 192khz.


----------



## Benny-x

It's not a driver limitation, but it may be due to a setting in your media player program or with whatever the U12 is outputting to. 
  
 What's your chain, everything from PC->headphones. It'll help someone possibly see where the issue is.


----------



## SandyBay

J River uses whatever the driver (system) setting. J River shows the file a higher bitrate than what U12 displays. X12 shows (obviously) the same bitrate as the U12 does. U12 and X12 are connected by a I2S (HDMI) cable. I guess it is irrelevant (headphone amp) after the DAC.
  
 I use a Microsoft Surface Pro 3 with a HD connected to it as a music source. Can someone confirm that 24bit/384kHz is available in your U12 setup?


----------



## SandyBay

Just to clarify the issue - the highest I can go in the driver setting is 24/192. 24/384 is not there.


----------



## SodaBoy

Quote:


sandybay said:


> J River uses whatever the driver (system) setting. J River shows the file a higher bitrate than what U12 displays. X12 shows (obviously) the same bitrate as the U12 does. U12 and X12 are connected by a I2S (HDMI) cable. I guess it is irrelevant (headphone amp) after the DAC.
> 
> I use a Microsoft Surface Pro 3 with a HD connected to it as a music source. Can someone confirm that 24bit/384kHz is available in your U12 setup?


 
  
  
 I can confirm 24/384 is available on U12->X12 via i2s bridge, output through XMOS USB in JRiver, driver 2.26. PCM 24/384 is displayed correctly on both the U12 and the X12. 2xDSD in DoP format also outputs correctly to the U12->X12 setup.
  
 The only difference between our setups is that you are on a Surface Pro 3, and I'm on a Windows 7 desktop.
  
 You can try uninstalling your existing drivers, and reinstalling only 2.26. Set XMOS USB as default audio device with exclusive access boxes ticked. Output in JRiver through XMOS USB, WASAPI, or Kernel Streaming, and see if it works then.


----------



## prot

https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun10/articles/masterclocks.htm
"Overall, it should be clear from these tests that employing an external master clock cannot and will not improve the sound quality of a digital audio system. It might change it, and subjectively that change might be preferred, but it won't change things for the better in any technical sense. "

That doesnt sound very encouraging ... esecially since they also tested one of those antelope 10m "wonders"


----------



## DACLadder

I ordered and received a U12 as I needed a nice package where I can experiment and test HDMI I2S.  Well built and impressive for the price on Amazon.  
  
 However the U12's I2S output is pinned out incorrect for the "PS Audio" method of I2S.  DATA and WCLK on the cable are inverted which means L - R sides are swapped and the absolute phase is 180 deg out.  Luckily a chip swap + 1 wire will make it PSA compliant for the I2S signals.  I'll let you know how that works out.
  
 Are there two grounding mods?  Both hookup chassis ground to 1) power transformer core and 2) power supply ground at the large caps.  Oh yes, change the two large caps as well.  I have clean USB power so will hold off on any USB changes for now.  Are the stock oscillators OK?
  
 With 30-minutes warm up it sounds OK with the AGD Master 7 DAC via I2S.  But need to fixed the I2S output for my setup.  I think with some run-in the U12 may though be a bargain that actually sounds decent!


----------



## ginetto61

abartels said:


> Hi Bob,
> *Try putting 0.01uF near xo, bypassing gnd/vcc*
> Could be xo is oscillating
> Regards,
> Alex


 
  
 Good morning Alex !
_*i wonder if this tweak could be beneficial always.   Maybe it could also filter a little of HF noise reaching the chip.*_
 In my case there is surely some noise.  
 I am not going to mess with the pcb,  scared to destroy it irreversibly.
 But soldering a film cap i think i could do that .. without damages i mean
 I have both U10 and U12 (and the Melodious as well) to try out.
 On which chip a bypass cap could be beneficial ?
 Thanks a lot again,   gino


----------



## abartels

ginetto61 said:


> Good morning Alex !
> _*i wonder if this tweak could be beneficial always.   Maybe it could also filter a little of HF noise reaching the chip.*_
> In my case there is surely some noise.
> I am not going to mess with the pcb,  scared to destroy it irreversibly.
> ...


 
  
 I suppose there's a decoupling cap near the XO. if not, it will help. It's not for reducing noise, it's just to prevent XO oscillating.
 Decoupling caps always should be as close as possible to the devices gnd and vcc, otherwise oscillating could occur.
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *abartels* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> I suppose there's a decoupling cap near the XO. if not, it will help. It's not for reducing noise, it's just to prevent XO oscillating.
> _*Decoupling caps always should be as close as possible to the devices gnd and vcc*_, otherwise oscillating could occur.
> Regards,
> Alex


 
  
 Thanks a lot Alex for the great advice.
 I will try to add the cap on the chips.
 I need an iron solder with a smaller tip ... and T control.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## abartels

dacladder said:


> I ordered and received a U12 as I needed a nice package where I can experiment and test HDMI I2S.  Well built and impressive for the price on Amazon.
> 
> However the U12's I2S output is pinned out incorrect for the "PS Audio" method of I2S.  DATA and WCLK on the cable are inverted which means L - R sides are swapped and the absolute phase is 180 deg out.  Luckily a chip swap + 1 wire will make it PSA compliant for the I2S signals.  I'll let you know how that works out.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi DACLadder,
  
 I would try the GND mod as described by pakultra, see: http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/1470#post_11583676
  
  
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Alex


----------



## antbuzz

Hi guys,
  just a proud owner of U12 took SH from a friend of mine!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Everything's just fine except drivers... I don't know if I have to ask about it on this thread but can someone help me solving this issue? My friend seems that he can't as somehow he lost the driver support (I suppose it was a CD or something...) and the copy (if ever was some..) was lost due to HDD failure.
   Thanx for any help you might provide!


----------



## DACLadder

antbuzz said:


> Hi guys,
> just a proud owner of U12 took SH from a friend of mine!
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I downloaded 2.26 the other day from here...   http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntNXwN3    If you don't understand written Chinese then look for the arrow pointing down (download) on the top row that has "1.2M" in its title.  The .rar file has 2.23 in the name but the actual driver when unpacked is 2.26.  I used 7-Zip (free) to unzip the .rar file.


----------



## abartels

Send me PM with your email address, I will send you the Luckit2.23 driver


----------



## abartels

dacladder said:


> I downloaded 2.26 the other day from here...   http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntNXwN3    If you don't understand written Chinese then look for the arrow pointing down (download) on the top row that has "1.2M" in its title.  The .rar file has 2.23 in the name but the actual driver when unpacked is 2.26.  I used 7-Zip (free) to unzip the .rar file.


 
 Superceded,,, I was too late, thanks DACLadder, cheers


----------



## antbuzz

Thank you guys! I downloaded the copy from Chinese site. I have to admit that me head still hurts (no offense for the chinese guys)! As for Luckit drivers, can I ask why is so popular as long as U12 does have 2.26 drivers available to download? Are Luckit versions better than Gustard ones? Thanx!
   P.S. Are Luckit 2.26 available?


----------



## riffer

dacladder said:


> I ordered and received a U12 as I needed a nice package where I can experiment and test HDMI I2S.  Well built and impressive for the price on Amazon.
> 
> However the U12's I2S output is pinned out incorrect for the "PS Audio" method of I2S.  DATA and WCLK on the cable are inverted which means L - R sides are swapped and the absolute phase is 180 deg out.  Luckily a chip swap + 1 wire will make it PSA compliant for the I2S signals.  I'll let you know how that works out.
> 
> ....


 

 I'm especially interested in your results as I can desolder and solder ic's, but figuring out and troubleshooting this stuff is well beyond me.


----------



## DACLadder

riffer said:


> I'm especially interested in your results as I can desolder and solder ic's, but figuring out and troubleshooting this stuff is well beyond me.


 
 It is just a chip change driving the HDMI I2S port.   Replace with SN65LVDS391D.  The swap is not 100% compatible as one wire is needed.  Pin 8 output enable is pulled low to ground on the original LVDS047 chip.  But pin 8 needs to be attached to Vcc on the LVDS391.  When installing lift pin 8 so that is does not make contact with the pad and run a wire from lifted pin 8 to Vcc or pin 4.
  
 I'll have some pictures available when I get the replacement chips and perform the rework.  Both Mouser and Digikey have plenty of these chips.  Be sure and order the SOIC16 package (or "D" package).


----------



## Cool Barn

antbuzz said:


> Are Luckit versions better than Gustard ones? Thanx!
> P.S. Are Luckit 2.26 available?


 
  
  
 I have a Stello U3 and use modified Luckit drivers (2.24 which were the last ones posted on the Luckit website).  Personally I prefer the TUSB Control Panel that comes with the Luckit, I like how it gives the option for "Always On" and is just a much better control panel in general.
  
 If anybody comes across 2.26 or later with that same control panel please let us all know


----------



## riffer

dacladder said:


> It is just a chip change driving the HDMI I2S port.   Replace with SN65LVDS391D.  The swap is not 100% compatible as one wire is needed.  Pin 8 output enable is pulled low to ground on the original LVDS047 chip.  But pin 8 needs to be attached to Vcc on the LVDS391.  When installing lift pin 8 so that is does not make contact with the pad and run a wire from lifted pin 8 to Vcc or pin 4.
> 
> I'll have some pictures available when I get the replacement chips and perform the rework.  Both Mouser and Digikey have plenty of these chips.  Be sure and order the SOIC16 package (or "D" package).


 

 Thanks.  I had downloaded the spec sheets for the SN65LVDS391D and the chip in the U12, but it was incomprehensible to me.


----------



## blasjw

Quote:


antbuzz said:


> Hi guys,
> just a proud owner of U12 took SH from a friend of mine!
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I was able to download it from here by clicking on the button at the top with the download icon and "(1.2M)" on it:
 http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntNXwN3


----------



## abartels

blasjw said:


> Quote:
> I was able to download it from here by clicking on the button at the top with the download icon and "(1.2M)" on it:
> http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntNXwN3


 
 this is standard version 2.23


----------



## Benny-x

@dacladder and anyone else.

I'm kind of hooked on HDMI i2s now and I'm reading all the Schiit Yggy impressions, but I'm wondering what degree of hacking would be necessary to set it up with an i2s input? Like there must be a way to patch into its current implementation and add i2s via a daughter board, similar to how it's done on the M7. I know the M7 was just an extension beyond its recently added rj-45 i2s, but still.


----------



## Sonic Defender

@Benny-x, I just have to ask about that avatar of yours. Who is that beautiful woman and are those MDR Z7s she is wearing? Just curious.


----------



## DACLadder

benny-x said:


> @dacladder and anyone else.
> 
> I'm kind of hooked on HDMI i2s now and I'm reading all the Schiit Yggy impressions, but I'm wondering what degree of hacking would be necessary to set it up with an i2s input? Like there must be a way to patch into its current implementation and add i2s via a daughter board, similar to how it's done on the M7. I know the M7 was just an extension beyond its recently added rj-45 i2s, but still.


 

 From a 50,000 foot view there may be way as all the standard USB audio and S/PDIF ICs output I2S.  But it may be a very long time before I crack open the Yggy. 
  
 The Yggy has a very good USB implementation though.  It's just that the Master 7 responds well to low jitter sources.   The Yggy design (adaptive clock) may be less sensitive to source jitter.  Still early to make that call.


----------



## Benny-x

sonic defender said:


> @Benny-x, I just have to ask about that avatar of yours. Who is that beautiful woman and are those MDR Z7s she is wearing? Just curious.


 
 it is a good pic, isn't it   I think the headphones are a mashup of Denon D7000s and something with that kind of ring before the earpad, but I never could decide what they were. It's from 2010, so before the new Z7s. As for the girl, I'm not sure. It's and old avatar now, so it might be hard to ever find out.
  
 Haha, I did notice the other day that some new guy on the forums had "appropriated" my avatar. Now I did appropriate it from someone else, but I think I've got squatters rights on it by now


----------



## Benny-x

dacladder said:


> From a 50,000 foot view there may be way as all the standard USB audio and S/PDIF ICs output I2S.  But it may be a very long time before I crack open the Yggy.
> 
> The Yggy has a very good USB implementation though.  It's just that the Master 7 responds well to low jitter sources.   The Yggy design (adaptive clock) may be less sensitive to source jitter.  Still early to make that call.


 
  
 As far as the other inputs going to i2s and linking in there, that's also what I was imagining. I've got no idea how and ha, I don't even own one yet, but it might be worth looking into if and when I get one. Let's hope you "get the itch" and look into blazing the trail first 
  
 And yeah, I have heard the USB implementation is good. Overall everyone seems pretty pleased with it and the DAC in general in the Yggy Impressions Thread. I'm looking forward to having a listen when I can. I suppose the inner tweaker just has me wondering because from my own listening with outboard i2s conversion and then feeding various sources, it's resulted in a very nice sound.  The Yggy is likely, just based on the different style of engineering, to not be as responsive to low jitter sources like the M7, but you've always got to wonder, don't you


----------



## prot

benny-x said:


> @dacladder and anyone else.
> 
> I'm kind of hooked on HDMI i2s now and I'm reading all the Schiit Yggy impressions, but I'm wondering what degree of hacking would be necessary to set it up with an i2s input? Like there must be a way to patch into its current implementation and add i2s via a daughter board, similar to how it's done on the M7. I know the M7 was just an extension beyond its recently added rj-45 i2s, but still.




. 
 I wont expect such a custom input less than 6 months after the intro .. if ever. Just look at the early adopters .. 99% are afraid of even disconnecting the power cable. Plus, afaik, there is no such mod for any of their older DACs. 

Looks like that you may have to decide what you really are hooked on: i2s or the iggy hype ...


----------



## Benny-x

prot said:


> I wont expect such a custom input less than 6 months after the intro .. if ever. Just look at the early adopters .. 99% are afraid of even disconnecting the power cable. Plus, afaik, there is no such mod for any of their older DACs.
> 
> Looks like that you may have to decide what you really are hooked on: i2s or the iggy hype ...


 
 For sure. I don't expect anything like that to be going down yet, I was just fielding the question, especially in here and not over there, because it's on my mind.
  
 That was a funny part about people being afraid to even turn theirs off right now. There have been a couple recent posts saying otherwise, but then another cropped up saying after a power-down it took 3-4 days to re-stabilize... Suppose I'll find out some day.
  
 Eventually when I do have a listen I'll see if the Yggy lives up to all the hype. From there there's the question of putting money on the line, then finding out how happy I am with it, what kind of itch really starts to come up, then looking inside and trying to figure out if it's worth really looking into, if so if it's possible and feasible, and finally if I'd be willing to risk bricking it all just to add an input that may or may not sound different and may or may not sound better. Lots of things to really consider, for sure.
  
 And ha, by that time, with the DAC world, there may be a new thing to check that has everything I'm looking for. 
  
 Before all that is probably a new set of speakers, definitely the modding of my amp, some audio PC updates, hopefully modding the Gustard, maybe picking up a Tanly, and who knows what else. It all could go for a **** tomorrow. Haha.


----------



## DACLadder

benny-x said:


> As far as the other inputs going to i2s and linking in there, that's also what I was imagining. I've got no idea how and ha, I don't even own one yet, but it might be worth looking into if and when I get one. Let's hope you "get the itch" and look into blazing the trail first
> 
> And yeah, I have heard the USB implementation is good. Overall everyone seems pretty pleased with it and the DAC in general in the Yggy Impressions Thread. I'm looking forward to having a listen when I can. I suppose the inner tweaker just has me wondering because from my own listening with outboard i2s conversion and then feeding various sources, it's resulted in a very nice sound.  The Yggy is likely, just based on the different style of engineering, to not be as responsive to low jitter sources like the M7, but you've always got to wonder, don't you


 

 There are already tweakers getting into the Yggy  but advise waiting a while as that unit has both warm up and long burn in needs.  I tried the OR5 S/PDIF and AES but the Yggy USB sounded better.  
  
 Also the Gustard U12 USB source is turning out to be an excellent value.   Over HDMI I2S to the M7, even with L - R reversed and absolute phase 180 deg., sounds great and rivals the OR5!  I'm going to "fix" the HDMI I2S signals to make them "PS Audio" compliant and do some other mods but out of the box is great bargain.


----------



## DACLadder

> Quote:
> 
> 
> blasjw said:
> ...


 
 My bad...  Try this link for 2.26.0 Windows driver...  http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntDUtqp


----------



## ginetto61

dacladder said:


> .... Also the *Gustard U12 USB *source is turning out to be an excellent value ....


 
  
 Hi and sorry for asking.
 Have you tried the AES/EBU out of the U12 ?  in case how do you rate it ?
 I have dacs with this input and i would like to use it but i would like to have a reliable advice.
 Thanks a lot,  gino


----------



## abartels

dacladder said:


> My bad...  Try this link for 2.26.0 Windows driver...  http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntDUtqp


 
 Hi Dacladder,
  
 Are you sure it is extended version, with TUSB-audio tool?
  
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Alex


----------



## DACLadder

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and sorry for asking.
> Have you tried the AES/EBU out of the U12 ?  in case how do you rate it ?
> I have dacs with this input and i would like to use it but i would like to have a reliable advice.
> Thanks a lot,  gino


 

 I've only used HDMI I2S so far.   Someone else may have though.


----------



## DACLadder

abartels said:


> Hi Dacladder,
> 
> Are you sure it is extended version, with TUSB-audio tool?
> 
> ...


 

 No, its just a USB driver only and found from an Ebay seller.  Are you referring to something like the LuckIt driver?  I believe it has some tools in the package but the version below is 2.23.
  
http://www.filespr.co/Luckit-2-23-for-Gustard-U12-rar-speedyshare-Mzk5MDAyNA.html


----------



## ginetto61

dacladder said:


> I've only used HDMI I2S so far.   Someone else may have though.


 
 Thanks a lot


----------



## prot

benny-x said:


> For sure. I don't expect anything like that to be going down yet, I was just fielding the question, especially in here and not over there, because it's on my mind.
> 
> That was a funny part about people being afraid to even turn theirs off right now. There have been a couple recent posts saying otherwise, but then another cropped up saying after a power-down it took 3-4 days to re-stabilize... Suppose I'll find out some day.
> 
> ...




Those 3-4 days of warmup are by far the best headfi legend of late. And if you follow the subject you'll see that the real 'masters' behind it do insist on a different number: "around 160 hours" ... which 'interestingly' is exactly 6.66 days. I'm having such a hard time believing that ... seriously, it's sooo hard 

Anyway, guess many would like to try that thing but looks like in you case there are way too many open ends and questions. I'll just forget about it entirely if I were you... you'll surely get a chance to listen/try it at some point, no need to think about it. 
Cheers and good i2s sound!


----------



## prot

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and sorry for asking.
> Have you tried the AES/EBU out of the U12 ?  in case how do you rate it ?
> I have dacs with this input and i would like to use it but i would like to have a reliable advice.
> Thanks a lot,  gino




Using AES from U12 .. it's very good .. same as every other U12 output. 
Stop worrying and enjoy the music.


----------



## ginetto61

prot said:


> Using AES from U12 .. it's very good .. same as every other U12 output.
> Stop worrying and enjoy the music.


 
  
 Sorry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  ... _* even stock ? without mods ? *_  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 Why why these nice units do not have a more refined power supply ... and usb isolation. Cannot be that difficult to provide. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thanks, gino


----------



## DACLadder

My U12 HDMI I2S port has been reconfigured to match the PS Audio standard.   Changed the HDMI driver chip (U11) to a SN65LVDS391D.  The blue wire connects one of its output enables to Vcc where the old chip connected to ground.   Lift and isolate pin 8 and connect to pin 4 Vcc.   I also added a bypass cap directly to the power pin 4 and ground pin 5.  Very small 0402 size cap.
  
 This fixes the L - R channel swap and corrects absolute audio phase when using a PS Audio compatible HDMI I2S DAC.  Phasing I can really notice a difference on monaural tracks.  Here is a picture...


----------



## prot

ginetto61 said:


> Sorry    ... _* even stock ? without mods ?*_   :rolleyes:
> Why why these nice units do not have a more refined power supply ... and usb isolation. Cannot be that difficult to provide.
> Thanks, gino




Nope, no mods. Just bought it, installed and happily using it ever since. This is one of the very, very few devices that can truly compete with similar ones priced many times more (audiophilleo, audiogd, etc). You read that kind of stuff in almost every 'review' nowadays but in 99% of the cases it is just meaningless bullsh*t..actually, other than the U12, I do not know of any device that lives up to that kind of hype.
And I think it is much better to enjoy it's sound benefits than to worry about any could-have-been features


----------



## abartels

dacladder said:


> My U12 HDMI I2S port has been reconfigured to match the PS Audio standard.   Changed the U12 HDMI driver chip to a SN65LVDS391D.  The blue wire connects one of its output enables to Vcc where the old chip connected to ground.   Lift and isolate pin 8 and connect to pin 4 Vcc.   I also added a bypass cap directly to the power pin 4 and ground pin 5.  Very small 0402 size cap.
> 
> This fixes the L - R channel swap and corrects absolute audio phase when using a PS Audio compatible HDMI I2S DAC.  Phasing I can really notice a difference on monaural tracks.  Here is a picture...


 
  
 Very nicely done DACLadder 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  




 Alex


----------



## abartels

dacladder said:


> No, its just a USB driver only and found from an Ebay seller.  Are you referring to something like the LuckIt driver?  I believe it has some tools in the package but the version below is 2.23.
> 
> http://www.filespr.co/Luckit-2-23-for-Gustard-U12-rar-speedyshare-Mzk5MDAyNA.html


 
  
 I use this luckit driver from the beginning, the tool provides me with the possibility of setting the lowest latency and buffers, which i need in combination with JPlay 6.
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Alex


----------



## DACLadder

abartels said:


> I use this luckit driver from the beginning, the tool provides me with the possibility of setting the lowest latency and buffers, which i need in combination with JPlay 6.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ...


 

 I couldn't get any of the 2.23 versions of the driver to load on my Windows 8.1 x64 machine.  It appears these versions are not signed correctly.  Version 2.26 straight driver loads right up but took a while to figure out how to do it. 
  
 I'm sure there will be other drivers in the future.


----------



## Jerryfan

Hey fellas,

This Thread makes my head spin! I want to upgrade my Usb/spdif converter to the U8 (I think). Right now I'm using a yulong d18 DAC and u18 usb/spdif converter with the ifi iusb. I use the a stock usb cable to the iusb and an AB systems use cable to my u18. I noticed a nice change from my old teralink x2 when upgraded to the u18. I'm hoping for another level with a new converter. If I buy the u8, does that render my ifi iusb useless? There is a lot of info to keep straight on mods you guys have done to these u18. Can someone lost the clocks, caps and power transformer to upgrade the u8. Has anybody here heard the yulong u18 and know how it would compare to the u8? If I go trough with the upgrade, my tech would be doing the mods...it's just now my thing. Any help would be appreciated 

Thank you.


----------



## rb2013

jerryfan said:


> Hey fellas,
> 
> This Thread makes my head spin! I want to upgrade my Usb/spdif converter to the U8 (I think). Right now I'm using a yulong d18 DAC and u18 usb/spdif converter with the ifi iusb. I use the a stock usb cable to the iusb and an AB systems use cable to my u18. I noticed a nice change from my old teralink x2 when upgraded to the u18. I'm hoping for another level with a new converter. If I buy the u8, does that render my ifi iusb useless? There is a lot of info to keep straight on mods you guys have done to these u18. Can someone lost the clocks, caps and power transformer to upgrade the u8. Has anybody here heard the yulong u18 and know how it would compare to the u8? If I go trough with the upgrade, my tech would be doing the mods...it's just now my thing. Any help would be appreciated
> 
> Thank you.


 

 Why the U8 and not the U12?


----------



## Wildcatsare1

rb2013 said:


> Why the U8 and not the U12?




Bob, I have a similar question, maybe, like Jerryfan this thread makes my head spin. I had heard the U8 was sonically superior to the U12, thoughts? 

Now if I can get this Monarchy 22B I purchased on EBay that "suddenly" developed a short in shipping, I might be able to check out a U8 or U12!


----------



## Jerryfan

rb2013 said:


> Why the U8 and not the U12?
> [/quote
> 
> From everything I've read here, the u8 is better.


----------



## ginetto61

prot said:


> Nope, no mods. Just bought it, installed and happily using it ever since. This is one of the very, very few devices that can truly compete with similar ones priced many times more (audiophilleo, audiogd, etc).





> You read that kind of stuff in almost every 'review' nowadays but in 99% of the cases it is just meaningless bullsh*t..  actually, other than the U12, I do not know of any device that lives up to that kind of hype.
> And I think it is much better to enjoy it's sound benefits than to worry about any could-have-been features


 
  
 Thanks again and no mor doubt about the quality of this nice unit.
 Only one very last question  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I see that you also use AES out.  May i ask you if this is a result of some comparison with the other outs (i.e. optical, coax spdif ) ?
 i read some opinions about AES being better mainly for the superior S/N ratio in the signal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 And so i tend to stick with it.
 Thanks again.  gino


----------



## riffer

dacladder said:


> My U12 HDMI I2S port has been reconfigured to match the PS Audio standard.   Changed the HDMI driver chip (U11) to a SN65LVDS391D.  The blue wire connects one of its output enables to Vcc where the old chip connected to ground.   Lift and isolate pin 8 and connect to pin 4 Vcc.   I also added a bypass cap directly to the power pin 4 and ground pin 5.  Very small 0402 size cap.
> 
> This fixes the L - R channel swap and corrects absolute audio phase when using a PS Audio compatible HDMI I2S DAC.  Phasing I can really notice a difference on monaural tracks.  Here is a picture...


 
  
 Thanks for figuring that out and posting the pictures. I'm cleaning off my workbench and gathering all my soldering projects up for one big go in the next few weeks.  Also trying to get as much as I can into my electronics order to spread out the shipping fee.
  
 I almost didn't see the cap.  Can you please recommend a part for the cap.  Total newb here


----------



## rb2013

wildcatsare1 said:


> Bob, I have a similar question, maybe, like Jerryfan this thread makes my head spin. I had heard the U8 was sonically superior to the U12, thoughts?
> 
> Now if I can get this Monarchy 22B I purchased on EBay that "suddenly" developed a short in shipping, I might be able to check out a U8 or U12!


 
 I really like that Monarchy design - sorry to hear about the shorting issue.  He uses a Lite DAC with true R2R DAC chips to build around.  I used a different Lite DAC (the 60) to do very extensive mods on - and it sound pretty incredible.  See my comments on the U8 vs U12 below.
  


jerryfan said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Why the U8 and not the U12?
> ...


 

 I have had many of both and the MX-U8 is better sounding so far - I have a new U12 that I am modding to see if I can get to sound a good as the U8.  I have to warn you the QC of the U8's is sketchy at best.  I have three and each has it's issues.  The 1st one I received blew tubes right out of the box!  I found a accidentally soldered wire across some of the PS leads!  How could this be shipped like this - if there was even the slightest QC - like a final test run?  Same for the others.  I don't think the builder even runs them once after building - just kicks them out the door.  Ridiculous.
  
 Fortunately, I knew how to diagnose this issue and fix it (after 3-4 fuses).  The other units - one unlocks periodically (every few hours) and I have not been able to find out why.  The third made periodic random background clicking/ticking sounds (likely bad clocks).  That one I'm experimenting on with new clocks.
  
 The customer support has been very stretchy - with no guarantee - except the last one which I bought on Ebay (at least had a 'buyer' guarantee).  Buying from TaoBao or from Shenzhen Audio without any guarantee is not ideal.  The reason I won't buy a Tanly - until they are listed on Ebay.
  
 The U8's do sound amazing though - especially with the upgraded Nichicon FG or HW caps.
 The U12 is rock solid with great support.


----------



## DACLadder

riffer said:


> Thanks for figuring that out and posting the pictures. I'm cleaning off my workbench and gathering all my soldering projects up for one big go in the next few weeks.  Also trying to get as much as I can into my electronics order to spread out the shipping fee.
> 
> I almost didn't see the cap.  Can you please recommend a part for the cap.  Total newb here :


 
 The cap used is recommended by LVDS chip vendors to have a bypass cap as close to the power pins as possible.   I used a 0.001uF (1nF or 1000pF), 0402 package, 25V or better, X7R material.  You can find them on Ebay but are dirt cheap if ordering from Digikey or Mouser.   It helps greatly to have visual aid as these parts are tiny.   Their smallness have a benefit of lower inductance versus a larger package.
  
 Here are many to choose from
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?pv3=3&pv3=2&FV=fff40002%2Cfff8000b%2C1c0002%2C340040%2C380014%2C380016%2C380020%2C400004%2C440005%2Cb839e1%2Cb839f7%2C11401c5&k=ceramic+cap&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
  
http://www.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Ceramic-Capacitors/MLCCs-Multilayer-Ceramic-Capacitors/Multilayer-Ceramic-Capacitors-MLCC-SMD-SMT/_/N-bkrdv?P=1z0x7weZ1z0x6frZ1z0x6d8Z1z0x758Z1yzn53nZ1yzmoucZ1yx6r6bZ1z0ynas
  
 I didn't remove the backpanel but you may have better access to the chip (U11) if removed.   If you need any help let me know!


----------



## Jerryfan

rb2013 said:


> I really like that Monarchy design - sorry to hear about the shorting issue.  He uses a Lite DAC with true R2R DAC chips to build around.  I used a different Lite DAC (the 60) to do very extensive mods on - and it sound pretty incredible.  See my comments on the U8 vs U12 below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That is disappointing. Is gustard coming out with an upgrade to the u12? I saw something about a U20. If I do get a new converter with a power supply, does that mean I could sell my ifi iusb? Or would it still help with further isolation?


----------



## abartels

About MX-U8:
  
  
 I also noticed that all thru-hole components are soldered in very badly manner, it's like an eight year old has soldered it, while soldering for his first time,,,,
 So, if buying one, check all connections.
  
 Tomorrow my R-Cores will be delivered, so modding can finally start 
  
  
 I started a new thread about XM-U12 but it seems noone has some sort of interest in it. So, I will post here at U12 thread.
  
  
  
  
 Alex


----------



## Jerryfan

abartels said:


> About MX-U8:
> 
> Xm-u12?
> 
> ...


----------



## abartels

Sorry, i meant mx-u8

Regards, 
Alex


----------



## stuartmc

*"Buying from TaoBao or from Shenzhen Audio without any guarantee is not ideal. The reason I won't buy a Tanly - until they are listed on Ebay."*

I can certainly understand ones trepidation when dealing with an unknown company. I took the risk Witt Tanly and I have not been disappointed. The build quality is really superb and the sound quality is even better than I expected. It handles every format I have fed it without so much as a hiccup. The hdmi I2S output runs DSD perfectly to my Gustard X12 DAC - correct left/right channels and phase.


----------



## DACLadder

I'm having USB issues with the U12 and my PC running Windows 8.1 64.  I tried both the Jcat PCIe USB board with external, clean USB power and also the motherboard USB ports.  Everything plays along OK (sometimes hours) and all of a sudden a high frequency tone that is screechy but low in volume.   Happens with JRiver MC 20 or Foobar 2000.  I have to reboot the PC and disconnect U12 power to reconnect.   The only driver I could get to load was the CD supplied version 2.26.
  
 Never have issue with the OR5 or Schiit Yggy on the same PC.  Any ideas?   And it happened before the U12 underwent the knife for I2S mods.


----------



## rb2013

jerryfan said:


> That is disappointing. Is gustard coming out with an upgrade to the u12? I saw something about a U20. If I do get a new converter with a power supply, does that mean I could sell my ifi iusb? Or would it still help with further isolation?


 

 Yes - no need for the ifi iusb with the u12.  Although the U12 needs a USB power signal to switch on - it's simply a relay - no power directly to the clocks or converters.  I suppose if you were paranoid about ground signal leakage into the unit - you could get a Aqvox heavily filtered linear PS (or use the ifi iusb) - but that is over kill.  More likely the AC power is what needs some filtering - nothing to elaborate needed - I have had great success with a few of these Art Pro Pro PB4x4 (they work well with the MX-U8 as well), and they are very inexpensive.   Again for the ultra paranoid you could go for a power conditioner that cost from $400 to $2000.   I just ordered a 3rd - I want to try and run the U8 or U12 on a separate one form the DAC to see if there is any difference.
  
 I'm sure there will be a follow on to the U12, as it was a follow on from the Gustard U10.  Maybe a new XMOS chip upgrade soon?  12 cores instead of 8?  Like that's better - but maybe some other isolation circuit improvements?  My next upgrade after the caps on the U12 will be Murata IT versus the Pulses.  Cheap and easy.
  
 http://www.aqvox.de/usb-power_en.html
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/181487658681?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> *"Buying from TaoBao or from Shenzhen Audio without any guarantee is not ideal. The reason I won't buy a Tanly - until they are listed on Ebay."*
> 
> I can certainly understand ones trepidation when dealing with an unknown company. I took the risk Witt Tanly and I have not been disappointed. The build quality is really superb and the sound quality is even better than I expected. It handles every format I have fed it without so much as a hiccup. The hdmi I2S output runs DSD perfectly to my Gustard X12 DAC - correct left/right channels and phase.


 

 That's great to hear - but again with no guarantee for an almost $600 unit - that is quite a risk.  Maybe you just got lucky?  For $150 for the U12 or even $230 for the MX-U8 not as big of a risk.  Curious - have you gotten a U12 or MX-U8 to compare SQ?  Preferably one with Nichicon caps. 
  
 Side note does the X12 use the PS Audio hdmi I2S pinout?


----------



## MINORISUKE

stuartmc said:


> *"Buying from TaoBao or from Shenzhen Audio without any guarantee is not ideal. The reason I won't buy a Tanly - until they are listed on Ebay."*
> 
> .....


 
 In case a new visitor in this thread reads this sentence, there might occur a misunderstanding.
 Taobao: 7-day return policy is practically invalid for reisidents outside China.
 Shenzhen Audio: All the items on their Web store are with 30-day money back policy and 1-year guarantee.  If an item which is not listed in their Web store is ordered, then there is no warranty.


----------



## motberg

rb2013 said:


> That's great to hear - but again with no guarantee for an almost $600 unit - that is quite a risk.  Maybe you just got lucky?  For $150 for the U12 or even $230 for the MX-U8 not as big of a risk.  Curious - have you gotten a U12 or MX-U8 to compare SQ?  Preferably one with Nichicon caps.
> 
> Side note does the X12 use the PS Audio hdmi I2S pinout?


 
 Hi rb2013, thanks for all your posts... 
  
 I have a Tanly also.. it has been breaking in for over 100 hours by now and am very happy with the performance. I also had the U12, still have a MX-U8 (will be for sale) and a few others.. I cannot compare directly because I had them all connected differently and my Audio-GD Master 7 DAC is possibly also still breaking in. 
  
 If I understand correctly, the Tanley can be configured at the factory via firmware to match the HDMI i2S required, I special ordered as such and it is working perfectly with the M7 and JPlay 6 (Ultrastream engine, settings at 2.5Hz, 5 seconds).
  
 I have absolutely no DIY skills, so for me the Tanly was the most reasonable option for an XMOS i2S DDC.
  
 To me the U12 seems an unbelievable bargain, and was a very nice match with my prior DAC (NOS-1704) via SPDIF.


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> In case a new visitor in this thread reads this sentence, there might occur a misunderstanding.
> Taobao: 7-day return policy is practically invalid for reisidents outside China.
> Shenzhen Audio: All the items on their Web store are with 30-day money back policy and 1-year guarantee.  If an item which is not listed in their Web store is ordered, then there is no warranty.


 
 When I bought my U8's from them it was without guarantee.  Is Shenzhen carrying the Tanly on their Webstore with the guarantee?
  


motberg said:


> Hi rb2013, thanks for all your posts...
> 
> I have a Tanly also.. it has been breaking in for over 100 hours by now and am very happy with the performance. I also had the U12, still have a MX-U8 (will be for sale) and a few others.. I cannot compare directly because I had them all connected differently and my Audio-GD Master 7 DAC is possibly also still breaking in.
> 
> ...


 
 I really like the Tanly design - esp the better Crystek clocks - but the price is high.  When I look at the components vs the U8 - there is maybe another $100 in parts, yet it's $300 more expensive.  I'm always looking for the best value for the dollar.  Good to hear it's working perfectly and the builder is flexible on the hdmi pinout.  Have you had any issues with your U8?  Maybe I was just unlucky.  I'm not really unhappy - as a modder I was not going to have a long term guarantee anyway.  The 1st unit (once the PS short was fixed) with the Nichicon Fine Gold caps is sounding amazing (and has been trouble free) - heads above the U12's I had before with the FC caps.  The 2nd U8 with the Nichicon HW caps sounds awesome too - the unlocking issue is a 60 second fix and only happens every 5-6 hrs of playing (it does not seem to be related to a LR overheating issue), and maybe just a PC-DDC interaction issue.  With the Oppo (2.24.0) full control panel and Oppo ASIO 2.0 driver  - I have excellent control capabilities (like independent channel vol), and not one blue screen crash or PC lockup.  So at last from that perspective it's been excellent (not like some of the other more expensive DDCs I've had in the past).  It works perfectly with Foobar and JPlay 6.0.
  
 I guess the bottom line is the SQ - uber detailed, sweet and musical, very transparent and incisive.  What I've been looking for - and a major leap forward in my three systems (one HP and the other two speaker).  For the money and time invested (and some frustration) - well worth it.
  
 I just bought a third U12 for experimentation on (Crytek clocks, Murata's, FG caps, etc...) - and will wait on the Tanly for a used one to appear.  I would love to hear someones comments on a side by side comparison - I know this is not easy - due to the driver issues.  Maybe listen to one for a week, then the other, etc...  Just a thought.


----------



## MINORISUKE

rb2013 said:


> When I bought my U8's from them it was without guarantee.  Is Shenzhen carrying the Tanly on their Webstore with the guarantee?
> .....


 
 You and I were simply too "early".  I found MX-U8 on Taobao and asked Shenzhen Audio if they could get one for me.  As a "special order", they have a rule that no return is accepted even if the unit is defect.  They simply purchased one  from Taobao (= Melodious in this case) and sent it to me.  Their handling charge was reasonable.  Taobao's 7-day warranty is still valid, but it expires usually when the good arrives to a customer outside China.  That is why Shenzhen Audio say "no warranty for special orders".
 After that, I suggested that this item could be a hit if they included it in their normal product line-up, which they did.  I think you and I were the only customers of Shenzhen Audio who have bought MX-U8 without warranty.
  
 Regarding Tanly USB-DDC, I suggested in the same way, but Shenzhen Audio seems to have no interest in putting them into their normal product line-up.  You can try to pursuade them again.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> I'm having USB issues with the U12 and my PC running Windows 8.1 64.  I tried both the Jcat PCIe USB board with external, clean USB power and also the motherboard USB ports.  Everything plays along OK (sometimes hours) and all of a sudden a high frequency tone that is screechy but low in volume.   Happens with JRiver MC 20 or Foobar 2000.  I have to reboot the PC and disconnect U12 power to reconnect.   The only driver I could get to load was the CD supplied version 2.26.
> 
> Never have issue with the OR5 or Schiit Yggy on the same PC.  Any ideas?   And it happened before the U12 underwent the knife for I2S mods.


 

 Have you tired KS or a different ASIO - even DS just to see?  Also increase the buffer size to see if that helps.  I have not that issue - with the U8 - one unit did have some low level random ticking in the background - a sign of clocking issues.  You could also try and lift the ground on the U12.  Lastly, try one of the previous drivers like the 2.24.
  
 I run Win 7 - so not as well versed in 8 sound options.


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> You and I were simply too "early".  I found MX-U8 on Taobao and asked Shenzhen Audio if they could get one for me.  As a "special order", they have a rule that no return is accepted even if the unit is defect.  They simply purchased one  from Taobao (= Melodious in this case) and sent it to me.  Their handling charge was reasonable.  Taobao's 7-day warranty is still valid, but it expires usually when the good arrives to a customer outside China.  That is why Shenzhen Audio say "no warranty for special orders".
> After that, I suggested that this item could be a hit if they included it in their normal product line-up, which they did.  I think you and I were the only customers of Shenzhen Audio who have bought MX-U8 without warranty.
> 
> Regarding Tanly USB-DDC, I suggested in the same way, but Shenzhen Audio seems to have no interest in putting them into their normal product line-up.  You can try to pursuade them again.


 

 Good info!  Thanks.  I'm mostly concerned about a $600 unit having issues out of the box.  I am curious about the Tanly.  I'll have some time to play with my 3rd U8 and get those Crystek clocks working.  Just been backpacking in the mountains for a week - so backed up at work.
  
 I may just wait for a Tanly to show up used.  Or maybe a new Gustard coming?
  
 PS Maybe Tanly could sell over Ebay -with 'Buyer Protection'


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> That's great to hear - but again with no guarantee for an almost $600 unit - that is quite a risk.  Maybe you just got lucky?  For $150 for the U12 or even $230 for the MX-U8 not as big of a risk.  Curious - have you gotten a U12 or MX-U8 to compare SQ?  Preferably one with Nichicon caps.
> 
> Side note does the X12 use the PS Audio hdmi I2S pinout?


 
 I have a U12 and did make direct comparisons to the Tanly. See this post - http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/1605#post_11621102
  
 I didn't get the MX-U8 because of its lack of an hdmi I2S output.  After reading the Computer Audiophile article on the Berkeley Audio  Design Alpha and seeing how similarly the Tanly was designed, I decided that $600 was a bargain compared to the Berkely's $1895 price tag.


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> Have you tired KS or a different ASIO - even DS just to see?  Also increase the buffer size to see if that helps.  I have not that issue - with the U8 - one unit did have some low level random ticking in the background - a sign of clocking issues.  You could also try and lift the ground on the U12.  Lastly, try one of the previous drivers like the 2.24.
> 
> I run Win 7 - so not as well versed in 8 sound options.


 

 Thanks, I tried all the buffering/ output options and seems the USB port gets lost and doesn't return.  I used it this morning and didn't have any issues. 
  
 Does the U8 have the same Xmos U8 USB audio chip?


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> I have a U12 and did make direct comparisons to the Tanly. See this post - http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/1605#post_11621102
> 
> I didn't get the MX-U8 because of its lack of an hdmi I2S output.  After reading the Computer Audiophile article on the Berkeley Audio  Design Alpha and seeing how similarly the Tanly was designed, I decided that $600 was a bargain compared to the Berkely's $1895 price tag.


 
 Oh sorry missed that - well that does say a lot.  The question I have for myself is - is it better then a slightly modded (better capped) MX-U8?  The U12 improved noticeably with the FC caps - the stock MX-U8 bettered it - the recapped (Nichicon Fine Gold) MX-U8 was notably better then stock (smoother with better detail, and a more pleasing flow).  So from stock U12 to recapped MX-U8 - that's quite a leap forward.  The only sure way to tell is get one I guess.


dacladder said:


> Thanks, I tried all the buffering/ output options and seems the USB port gets lost and doesn't return.  I used it this morning and didn't have any issues.
> 
> Does the U8 have the same Xmos U8 USB audio chip?


 
 Yes they use the same XMOS chip - with different implementation.  The U8 uses the Murata IT's, better Tamura transformer, and much better PS regulation and filtering (twice the PS caps, better linear regulator, power regulation for each individual clock, etc...).


----------



## riffer

dacladder said:


> The cap used is recommended by LVDS chip vendors to have a bypass cap as close to the power pins as possible.   I used a 0.001uF (1nF or 1000pF), 0402 package, 25V or better, X7R material.  You can find them on Ebay but are dirt cheap if ordering from Digikey or Mouser.   It helps greatly to have visual aid as these parts are tiny.   Their smallness have a benefit of lower inductance versus a larger package.
> 
> Here are many to choose from
> http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?pv3=3&pv3=2&FV=fff40002%2Cfff8000b%2C1c0002%2C340040%2C380014%2C380016%2C380020%2C400004%2C440005%2Cb839e1%2Cb839f7%2C11401c5&k=ceramic+cap&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
> ...


 

 Thanks  for all your help.  Hopefully I will be able to get to this in the next few weeks.


----------



## abartels

For the ones who are interested on following my mods on XM-U8, yesterday I started the modding, see:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/767935/melodious-xm-u8-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/60#post_11712068
  
  
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Alex


----------



## Adosero

Hey guys,
 Can you share a link for the new driver 2.26. I really can't find it.
 Thanks a lot..


----------



## DACLadder

adosero said:


> Hey guys,
> Can you share a link for the new driver 2.26. I really can't find it.
> Thanks a lot..


 
 Give this a try....
  
http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntDUtqp


----------



## Adosero

this page gives an error every time I try:
  
Lol, you visit the page does not exist.  Possible causes:
 1. In the address bar, enter the wrong address.
 2. You click a link has expired.


----------



## DACLadder

adosero said:


> this page gives an error every time I try:
> 
> Lol, you visit the page does not exist.  Possible causes:
> 1. In the address bar, enter the wrong address.
> 2. You click a link has expired.


 

 Works OK for me at home or at the office....


----------



## Adosero

really weird.. I have no clue..


----------



## rb2013

Just added a second Art Pro Pro PB 4X4 line filter - now have a separate one for my DAC and a separate one for the MX-U8.  A nice improvement.  Seems even more flowing and dynamic - a bit smoother still.  These inexpensive units have really impressed me.


----------



## riffer

dacladder said:


> Works OK for me at home or at the office....



 


Me too. I don't understand a word of it, but I do get something that looks like a download page in Chinese.


----------



## DACLadder

riffer said:


> dacladder said:
> 
> 
> > Works OK for me at home or at the office....
> ...


 
 That's it... Look for the box with the download arrow (pointing down) with "(1.2M)" in the characters.   Click on it and save the file to your local drive.


----------



## Adosero

When I follow the link, the address of the page I get is : http://pan.baidu.com/error/404.html .. And the google translate says "LOL, you visit the page does not exist" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Is that possible you guys kindly send me a public link like dropbox or an email with the file ?


----------



## abartels

http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntDUtqp works for me too


----------



## Benny-x

abartels said:


> http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntDUtqp works for me too


 
 thanks for the link to your MX-U8 mods. Looks good and fun to see what you're doing with it. I'm looking forward to you getting it all taken care of when you've got the time, re-breaking it in, and then posting some impressions


----------



## DACLadder

adosero said:


> When I follow the link, the address of the page I get is : http://pan.baidu.com/error/404.html .. And the google translate says "LOL, you visit the page does not exist"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sent me a PM with your Email address.  I'll be happy to forward the driver to you.


----------



## Adosero

Thank you very much DACLadder.. PM sent..


----------



## DACLadder

Not a problem...   The driver load is another hurdle I had to figure out.   The download .rar file contains one executable file.  Clicking on it just decompresses the real driver loader in the "C:\Program Files\XMOS\USBAudioStDriver_3033" path.   And it asked you to reboot after doing so but not necessary at this point.  There is a "setup.exe" in this location that actually loads the driver.  Have the U12 connected when starting the setup.exe.   Maybe restart your computer after it completes.  At least this is how it worked for Windows 8.1


----------



## DACLadder

adosero said:


> When I follow the link, the address of the page I get is : http://pan.baidu.com/error/404.html .. And the google translate says "LOL, you visit the page does not exist"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I think I know what the issue is.  You can't copy and paste http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntDUtqp in the browser.  Clicking on the link actually starts the real URL for the web page (below).
  
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_143524290398813&key=04fea777994d26cd84e01a5e54f4c01d&libId=ibc9p1af01000k6o000DA6jf4lkni&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.head-fi.org%2Ft%2F736294%2Fgustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip%2F1950%23post_11716223&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fpan.baidu.com%2Fs%2F1ntDUtqp&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.head-fi.org%2Fusers%2Fsubscriptions%2Findex%2Fview%2Fthreads&title=Gustard%20U12%20USB%20Interface%208%20Core%20XMOS%20chip%20-%20Page%20131&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fpan.baidu.com%2Fs%2F1ntDUtqp


----------



## prot

dacladder said:


> I think I know what the issue is.  You can't copy and paste [COLOR=0066CC]http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntDUtqp[/COLOR] in the browser.  Clicking on the link actually starts the real URL for the web page (below).
> 
> http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_143524290398813&key=04fea777994d26cd84e01a5e54f4c01d&libId=ibc9p1af01000k6o000DA6jf4lkni&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.head-fi.org%2Ft%2F736294%2Fgustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip%2F1950%23post_11716223&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fpan.baidu.com%2Fs%2F1ntDUtqp&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.head-fi.org%2Fusers%2Fsubscriptions%2Findex%2Fview%2Fthreads&title=Gustard%20U12%20USB%20Interface%208%20Core%20XMOS%20chip%20-%20Page%20131&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fpan.baidu.com%2Fs%2F1ntDUtqp




That is however the exact same baidu.com URL. Everything before the last = sign is just some lalala that the headfi forum adds to any URL


----------



## rjbell

The u12 looks great. Is there any chinese amps you guys would recommend similar in price that are also punching well above there weight? To run some bookshelf speakers ( sorry I know its a headphone forum)


----------



## rb2013

rjbell said:


> The u12 looks great. Is there any chinese amps you guys would recommend similar in price that are also punching well above there weight? To run some bookshelf speakers ( sorry I know its a headphone forum)


 

 I have two of these - the older version with the 6922 that I have modded.  They are really amazing even stock.  Class A to 30 watts.  Then switching to class A/B.  Mine have been recapped with totl Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps and the best vintage 6922 HG tubes.  Simply outstanding - better then the $25000 CJ ACT2/Response Hurricane combo I had before.
  
 http://www.cattylink.com/purer33se.html
  
 They make a smaller amp as well - that APL mods and sells for $5K.
 http://www.cattylink.com/bda222t.html


----------



## rjbell

rb2013 said:


> I have two of these - the older version with the 6922 that I have modded.  They are really amazing even stock.  Class A to 30 watts.  Then switching to class A/B.  Mine have been recapped with totl Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps and the best vintage 6922 HG tubes.  Simply outstanding - better then the $25000 CJ ACT2/Response Hurricane combo I had before.
> 
> http://www.cattylink.com/purer33se.html
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you but i was thinking something  prices like the u12.


----------



## prot

rjbell said:


> Thank you but i was thinking something  prices like the u12.




There are hundreds of them on ebay, e.g. check this pretty good looking one http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nobsound-MS-10D-MKII-tube-amplifier-with-Bluetooth-USB-headphone-HIFI-110-240V-/281416468274 ... how good does it sound is anyone's guess but I doubt you need more for just a pair of bookshelves. That shop has a lot more affordable amps, both tubes and solid state ... also try the shenzenaudio store.


----------



## rjbell

People in the thread mention what amazing value this dac is. Can someone put it into contexts comparing it to other dacs on the market from the big international players, and where it would sit on cost if this was released from one of them? For example one of the large Japanese brands Sony/Denon/Pioneer/Marantz if this was one of there dacs what would be the price tag do you think?


----------



## abartels

rjbell said:


> People in the thread mention what amazing value this dac is. Can someone put it into contexts comparing it to other dacs on the market from the big international players, and where it would sit on cost if this was released from one of them? For example one of the large Japanese brands Sony/Denon/Pioneer/Marantz if this was one of there dacs what would be the price tag do you think?


 
  
 U12 is a DDC (Digital to Digital Converter) it's NOT a DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter)


----------



## rjbell

abartels said:


> U12 is a DDC (Digital to Digital Converter) it's NOT a DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter)


 

 Thank you i didn't realise this.


----------



## abartels

rjbell said:


> Thank you i didn't realise this.


 
  
 you're welcome


----------



## abartels

Btw,
  
 I finished modding MX-U8 :
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/767935/melodious-xm-u8-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/60#post_11721770
  
  
 Have to wait till Friday for final listening impressions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 Cheers    
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Alex


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> I have two of these - the older version with the 6922 that I have modded.  They are really amazing even stock.  Class A to 30 watts.  Then switching to class A/B.  Mine have been recapped with totl Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps and the best vintage 6922 HG tubes.  Simply outstanding - better then the $25000 CJ ACT2/Response Hurricane combo I had before.
> 
> http://www.cattylink.com/purer33se.html
> 
> ...


 

 Interesting amplifiers...   How does the newer version with Sanken output transistors compare to the older version?   Did you special order a 120V version by chance?


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> Interesting amplifiers...   How does the newer version with Sanken output transistors compare to the older version?   Did you special order a 120V version by chance?


 
 There have been four versions made in the last few years - I have two with the Toshiba outputs and 6922 tube pre.  Amazing amps!  These were the original version -then there was a version with the Hitachi's and 6922's, then the Sanken's with the  6922, lastly they went to a four 12au7 tube pre (similar to the 222) and the Sanken's.  I have not heard the either the old or the new Sanken version.  One I have is the 120Watt version from Cattylink and the other 115Watt from Pacific Valve and Elec - they sound the same to me.
  
 All these have the option of running in class 'A' until 10 watts or 30 watts, then bias over to A/B until 145 watts.  I put them on my watt meter and the power consumption jumps noticeable with the switch to 30 watts.  Sound is sweeter as well.  But runs hotter - in very hot weather I use the lower setting.  Very convenient.  Built like a tank at almost 50lbs - dual massive toroidal transformers for the outputs - separate R-core of the pre-amp section.  Ridiculous price for the sound quality.
  
 I run totl 6922's which really improves the sound - and have recapped them in Mundorf Supreme and Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps this made a major leap forward in SQ, but was expensive.
  
 Stock with upgraded tubes.

  
 With upgraded caps:

  
 FYI:
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/aplhifi/uas1.html


----------



## auvgeek

abartels said:


> U12 is a DDC (Digital to Digital Converter) it's NOT a DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter)


 

 I thought it stood for Digital Down Converter...?


----------



## rjbell

abartels said:


> you're welcome :wink_face:


 still a bit confused though. All the eBay and amazon listings call it a DAC. 
So what would be the next stage from this box to the analogue conversion? Just a standard DAC?


----------



## auvgeek

rjbell said:


> still a bit confused though. All the eBay and amazon listings call it a DAC. So what would be the next stage from this box to the analogue conversion?


 

 An actual DAC (Digital to Analogue converter). For instance, Gustard sells the X12. The U12 just converts digital to digital, namely USB to AES, I2S, etc. It very useful for those of us running computer audio and either a) don't have a DAC that accepts USB input or b) find the U12 provides superior sound quality than the DAC's integrated USB converter.


----------



## DACLadder

rjbell said:


> still a bit confused though. All the eBay and amazon listings call it a DAC.
> So what would be the next stage from this box to the analogue conversion? Just a standard DAC?


 

 Amazon has it as "GUSTARD U12 32Bit / 384KHz DSD XMOS USB Digital Audio *Interface*".  You connect its S/PDIF, AES, or I2S outputs to a DAC.


----------



## mz2014

https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggestions/suggestions/7019409-native-usb-class-2-audio-support


----------



## prot

mz2014 said:


> https://windows.uservoice.com/forums/265757-windows-feature-suggestions/suggestions/7019409-native-usb-class-2-audio-support




if you wanna add your voice this may be a better link
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/forum/insider_wintp-insider_devices/windows-support-for-usb-audio-20/0d633b9f-3193-4c63-8654-fb10b3614a04?auth=1

Official answer up to now "For the record, Windows 10 Technical Preview has the same support in this area as Windows 8.1" ... so don't get your hopes up.


----------



## DACLadder

The U12 continues to amaze me on what you get for your money.  The U12 is well designed and parts quality is high. I changed the clock oscillators  to Crystek/  added sockets and swapped the large caps for Panasonic FR 3300uF low ESR.   Poking around the circuit the large oscillators are furnished power by a linear regulator U13 (red arrowed in the photo bottom).  Both oscillators share this power but are individually filtered with ferrite bead, tantalum  and ceramic caps.   I wasn't expecting this level of filtering so impressive. 
  
 Here's a photo of the changes.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> The U12 continues to amaze me on what you get for your money.  The U12 is well designed and parts quality is high. I changed the clock oscillators  to Crystek/  added sockets and swapped the large caps for Panasonic FR 3300uF low ESR.   Poking around the circuit the large oscillators are furnished power by a linear regulator U13 (red arrowed in the photo bottom).  Both oscillators share this power but are individually filtered with ferrite bead, tantalum  and ceramic caps.   I wasn't expecting this level of filtering so impressive.
> 
> Here's a photo of the changes.


 
 Nice work!  Where did you get the DIP socket /pads for the Crysteks?  I have a U12 that I plan on upgrading the clocks.
 Did you use bypass caps on the clocks.


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> Nice work!  Where did you get the DIP socket /pads for the Crysteks?  I have a U12 that I plan on upgrading the clocks.
> Did you use bypass caps on the clocks.


 
 Thank you!  I got the socket adapters from Accutek Micro.  Part number AK14D300-XTAL-04SOJ-BY.  I like Ian's better but are practically- non-available.  Price is $5.50 ea. with about $10 shipping so not cheap.  Yes the one's I purchased have a pad for an 0603 size bypass cap.  You can see them in the picture earlier to the left of the Crystek oscillator cans.  The Crystek's also have additional bypass caps inside the can. 
  
http://www.accutekmicro.com/products/products-detail.cfm?CID=55
  
 Just Email sales at the bottom of the page...


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> Thank you!  I got the socket adapters from Accutek Micro.  Part number AK14D300-XTAL-04SOJ-BY.  I like Ian's better but are practically- non-available.  Price is $5.50 ea. with about $10 shipping so not cheap.  Yes the one's I purchased have a pad for an 0603 size bypass cap.  You can see them in the picture earlier to the left of the Crystek oscillator cans.  The Crystek's also have additional bypass caps inside the can.
> 
> http://www.accutekmicro.com/products/products-detail.cfm?CID=55
> 
> Just Email sales at the bottom of the page...


 
 Thanks~  The ones I have gotten are to narrow - and very hard to get good contact with the SMD pad to the DIP adapter.  Did you use .01uf bypasses?  I have some left over Vishay-Roderstein MKP1837 .01uf I thought i would use.   I need to order the higher clock Cyrsteks for the U12 - the U8 uses lower frequencies.
  
 What's you take on the sound differences?


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> Thanks~  The ones I have gotten are to narrow - and very hard to get good contact with the SMD pad to the DIP adapter.  Did you use .01uf bypasses?  I have some left over Vishay-Roderstein MKP1837 .01uf I thought i would use.   I need to order the higher clock Cyrsteks for the U12 - the U8 uses lower frequencies.
> 
> What's you take on the sound differences?


 
 I used a 0.1uF cap on the adapter boards as that is all I had in a package that would fit.  A .01uF would work just as well.   
  
 I had trouble soldering the Crystek's to the Accutek board.  The board pads needed to be slightly wider for better access.  But got it done.  If I do this more often I'll just have to find something else or design my own.
  
 For sound differences I don't know at this point as the Crystek's were swapped only 24 hrs ago.   After a 2-3 week run-in the U12 was sounding really good with original oscillators - way above expectation.   Big sound stage, very liquid, and decent vocals.  After the mods yesterday sounds a little generic but everything is in place and very listenable.  Not as much bass perceived but something is going on down low - perhaps better precision.  But I can hear better into the mix and instrument separation is really good.  A little "green" sounding though but has potential and more listening is needed. 
  
 With the oscillator sockets I can swap back to the originals or others in about 10 minutes.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> I used a 0.1uF cap on the adapter boards as that is all I had in a package that would fit.  A .01uF would work just ask well.
> 
> I had trouble soldering the Crystek's to the Accutek board.  The board pads needed to be slightly wider for better access.  But got it done.  If I do this more often I'll just have to find something else or design my own.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes those clocks need a some break in time, the caps as well.  You were able to remove the originals intact - nice work.  On mine the caps came off.  Have though of trying the Murata's in place of the Pulses?


----------



## abartels

Final verdict on heavily modded MX-U8
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/767935/melodious-mx-u8-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/90#post_11740342
  
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## DACLadder

abartels said:


> Final verdict on heavily modded MX-U8
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/767935/melodious-mx-u8-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/90#post_11740342
> 
> ...


 

 Good job!   A lot of work and sounds like you hit pay dirt with your efforts.


----------



## DACLadder

The Crystek oscillators and rectifier cap change I installed about four days ago have run in enough to delivery great sound.  Notice less grain in the vocals.  The U12 is sounding so good it rivals the Off Ramp 5 via HDMI I2S.   The Off Ramp 5 gives up slightly more bass but the U12 is handling the upper mids (vocals) very well in comparison.  Soundstage almost as wide as the OR5.  
  
 My biggest disappointment in the U12 is the USB interface from my WIndows 8.1 machine to the unit.  Occasionally the USB port becomes unlocked during playback and outputs only a low level tone.  The only way to recover is to power down the PC and restart the U12.   It happens using Foobar2000. JRiver MC, or just playing a game.  If I select tracks for playback and constantly pick different sampling rates then I have no issue.   If I let it play with one sampling rate for a long period then the USB port eventually unlocks and does not recover.  I never have this issue with the Off Ramp 5 or other DACs with USB ports.  I have written Shenzhen Audio (U12 distributor) but received no reply. This morning the U12 has played OK for 5 hrs. straight without error but have selected tracks after playing up to 3 or 4 straight through.   If anyone hears of a newer windows USB driver other than 2.26 please let me know.


----------



## abartels

dacladder said:


> Good job!   A lot of work and sounds like you hit pay dirt with your efforts.


 
  
 Hi DACLadder,
  
 Thanks for the compliments, yes, I indeed hit pay dirt with the mods 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## abartels

dacladder said:


> The Crystek oscillators and rectifier cap change I installed about four days ago have run in enough to delivery great sound.  Notice less grain in the vocals.  The U12 is sounding so good it rivals the Off Ramp 5 via HDMI I2S.   The Off Ramp 5 gives up slightly more bass but the U12 is handling the upper mids (vocals) very well in comparison.  Soundstage almost as wide as the OR5.
> 
> My biggest disappointment in the U12 is the USB interface from my WIndows 8.1 machine to the unit.  Occasionally the USB port becomes unlocked during playback and outputs only a low level tone.  The only way to recover is to power down the PC and restart the U12.   It happens using Foobar2000. JRiver MC, or just playing a game.  If I select tracks for playback and constantly pick different sampling rates then I have no issue.   If I let it play with one sampling rate for a long period then the USB port eventually unlocks and does not recover.  I never have this issue with the Off Ramp 5 or other DACs with USB ports.  I have written Shenzhen Audio (U12 distributor) but received no reply. This morning the U12 has played OK for 5 hrs. straight without error but have selected tracks after playing up to 3 or 4 straight through.   If anyone hears of a newer windows USB driver other than 2.26 please let me know.


 
  
 Hi DACLadder,
  
 Maybe there's a newer driver available for your USB chip on your pc's motherboard. I never had troubles with U12, rocksolid. I used the Luckit driver on my server 2012 with JPlay,
  
  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## Cool Barn

dacladder said:


> Occasionally the USB port becomes unlocked during playback and outputs only a low level tone.  The only way to recover is to power down the PC and restart the U12.   It happens using Foobar2000. JRiver MC, or just playing a game.  If I select tracks for playback and constantly pick different sampling rates then I have no issue.   If I let it play with one sampling rate for a long period then the USB port eventually unlocks and does not recover.  I never have this issue with the Off Ramp 5 or other DACs with USB ports.  I have written Shenzhen Audio (U12 distributor) but received no reply. This morning the U12 has played OK for 5 hrs. straight without error but have selected tracks after playing up to 3 or 4 straight through.   If anyone hears of a newer windows USB driver other than 2.26 please let me know.


 
  
 Maybe your current drivers are misconfigured or aren't directing the appropriate information to Windows?  This mightn't fix the issue, but just in case I would go into Control Panel - Power Options - Change Plan Settings - Change Advanced Power Settings - USB Settings - Set USB Selective Suspend setting to Disabled.
  
 Six months ago the front USB ports on my PC would only work intermittently with a couple of specific devices, but as soon as I disabled that setting they have worked 100%.  Apparently it will slightly increase my electricity bill with the USB ports always being on, but it's a small price to pay to have a working computer!
  
 Good luck


----------



## DACLadder

cool barn said:


> Maybe your current drivers are misconfigured or aren't directing the appropriate information to Windows?  This mightn't fix the issue, but just in case I would go into Control Panel - Power Options - Change Plan Settings - Change Advanced Power Settings - USB Settings - Set USB Selective Suspend setting to Disabled.


 
  


abartels said:


> Maybe there's a newer driver available for your USB chip on your pc's motherboard. I never had troubles with U12, rocksolid. I used the Luckit driver on my server 2012 with JPlay,


 
 Thanks for the tips.  I made a custom power plan under Windows Control Panel to turn off power savings and never sleep or hibernate.  This issue happens with both the PC motherboard USB ports and the preferred Jcat PCIe USB adapter.   USB power is supplied by a clean +5V supply
  
 The U12 unlocked this morning after about 30 minutes of use.  Went to the Off Ramp 5 and no problem.  I need to find the Luckit 2.26 driver.  Their 2.23 version does not load on my PC as it is not signed correctly for Windows 8.1 even though it states that it is supported.
  
 It may be the U12 has a fault.  I restarted the PC, USB power supply, U12, and DAC but no audio output after a restart.  I have USB sniffer SW and Windows thinks that it is still shifting bits to the U12 but the U12 LCD display does not show correct sampling rate.    If I leave everything turned off for a while it will eventually come back.  Weird and frustrating.


----------



## abartels

dacladder said:


> Thanks for the tips.  I made a custom power plan under Windows Control Panel to turn off power savings and never sleep or hibernate.  This issue happens with both the PC motherboard USB ports and the preferred Jcat PCIe USB adapter.   USB power is supplied by a clean +5V supply
> 
> The U12 unlocked this morning after about 30 minutes of use.  Went to the Off Ramp 5 and no problem.  I need to find the Luckit 2.26 driver.  Their 2.23 version does not load on my PC as it is not signed correctly for Windows 8.1 even though it states that it is supported.
> 
> It may be the U12 has a fault.  I restarted the PC, USB power supply, U12, and DAC but no audio output after a restart.  I have USB sniffer SW and Windows thinks that it is still shifting bits to the U12 but the U12 LCD display does not show correct sampling rate.    If I leave everything turned off for a while it will eventually come back.  Weird and frustrating.


 
  
 Hi DACLadder,
  
 Did you remove the drivers, restart your pc, and installed the drivers again AFTER changing the XO's to Crystek ones??
 I experienced some problems too with my U12 after changing the XO's to NDK's.
  
 With my MX-U8 I had same procedure to follow,,,
  
 Btw, you can disable driver-signing in Windows 8.1 so that you can install Luckit drivers.
  
 http://www.howtogeek.com/167723/how-to-disable-driver-signature-verification-on-64-bit-windows-8.1-so-that-you-can-install-unsigned-drivers/
  
 Hope this helps,
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> The Crystek oscillators and rectifier cap change I installed about four days ago have run in enough to delivery great sound.  Notice less grain in the vocals.  The U12 is sounding so good it rivals the Off Ramp 5 via HDMI I2S.   The Off Ramp 5 gives up slightly more bass but the U12 is handling the upper mids (vocals) very well in comparison.  Soundstage almost as wide as the OR5.
> 
> My biggest disappointment in the U12 is the USB interface from my WIndows 8.1 machine to the unit.  Occasionally the USB port becomes unlocked during playback and outputs only a low level tone.  The only way to recover is to power down the PC and restart the U12.   It happens using Foobar2000. JRiver MC, or just playing a game.  If I select tracks for playback and constantly pick different sampling rates then I have no issue.   If I let it play with one sampling rate for a long period then the USB port eventually unlocks and does not recover.  I never have this issue with the Off Ramp 5 or other DACs with USB ports.  I have written Shenzhen Audio (U12 distributor) but received no reply. This morning the U12 has played OK for 5 hrs. straight without error but have selected tracks after playing up to 3 or 4 straight through.   If anyone hears of a newer windows USB driver other than 2.26 please let me know.


 

 I never had any issue with my Gustards - but do with just one of my MX-U8's.  This is on a brand new music server I build around WIN 7 (waiting to see what WIN 10 is like).  It unlocks after a few hours.  But on mine I just need to close and reopen Foobar - then it plays fine.  I have tried everything in the book and 4 different version - nothing fixes it.  It's really just a slight annoyance - and my other MX-U8 also on an older WIN7 server plays fine - not issues at all.
  
 I think it might be these XMOS chips - possibly some production variance.


----------



## DACLadder

Thanks again for your help.  I will try turning off driver verify and attempt to load Luckit 2.23 driver.   The issue also could be the U12 itself - wish I had another to try in its place.  I may buy another down the road or try this one on a different operating system..  I have a netbook running Windows 7 x64 that I will locate and try.   
  
 I also plan to put an oscilloscope on the signals when its in this state but I have no schematic to go by so a shot in the dark.  The USB port sniffer software indicates the USB link is OK as I can see data packets sent.  Perhaps down stream of the Xmos.   There is an FPGA that accepts the Xmos signals and clock and drives the I/O ports.  Could be there as will.  The U12 hardware is fairly simple so not a lot to go wrong.


----------



## DACLadder

abartels said:


> Btw, you can disable driver-signing in Windows 8.1 so that you can install Luckit drivers.
> 
> http://www.howtogeek.com/167723/how-to-disable-driver-signature-verification-on-64-bit-windows-8.1-so-that-you-can-install-unsigned-drivers/


 
 You learn something new everyday and thank you!   Loaded up the Luckit 2.23 driver first try after disabling the driver verifier in Win 8.1.  Great, I wanted to try different driver and plays perfectly so far.  Good info Alex!  Thanks again....


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> I never had any issue with my Gustards - but do with just one of my MX-U8's.
> This is on a brand new music server I build around WIN 7 (waiting to see what WIN 10 is like) .


 
  
 Hi and sorry to jump in.
 May i ask _*which interface of the ones you have you like better ?*_
 Have you checked the circuit ? which is the best design ?
 I have both ... the Gustard U12 and the Melodious but i have listened the U12 not enough to form an opinion.
 Thanks a lot,  gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and sorry to jump in.
> May i ask _*which interface of the ones you have you like better ?*_
> Have you checked the circuit ? which is the best design ?
> I have both ... the Gustard U12 and the Melodious but i have listened the U12 not enough to form an opinion.
> Thanks a lot,  gino


 

 Hi,  well so far I much prefer the MX-U8.  I have another U12 I just bought (my third - as I sold my other two original units after hearing the MX-U8), I want to try and mod it some more and see the results.
  
 My MX-U8's have greater detail and a more incisive presentation - while remaining supremely musical and smooth.  The bass is very extended and well defined - the treble clear and transparent with absolutely no hint of glare or etch.  Tonally, they transmit a rich natural tone.  The sound staging is deep and holographic - more so then the U12.  Note I have two of the U8's one with Nichicon Fine Gold caps and the other with Nichicon HWs.  Otherwise they are stock.  I added dedicated power supply filtering on each (Common Mode and Differential Mode), this did improve the clarity and transparency.  The U12's sound very good - but a bit veiled compared to the U8's in my systems.   Second note my three systems are very highly evolved - with high end sources, advanced designed music servers, and refined amps and speakers (and HP's in my third system HD800/Moon Black Dragon V2 cable).  So changes become very noticeable and distinct. 
  
 With these units I have now tried 10 different DDC USB interfaces (see the beginning of the thread for the list) - without a doubt the U8's are amazing and hands down beat every other DDC I have owned.  They are not the best in terms of QC - but have very good components (Talema trans, Murata IT, etc...) and design (multiple layers of highly regulated and filtered PS).  I have not had the BADA or the Hydra X+ yet.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Hi,  well so far *I much prefer the MX-U8*.  I have another U12 I just bought (my third - as I sold my other two original units after hearing the MX-U8), I want to try and mod it some more and see the results.
> My MX-U8's have greater detail and a more incisive presentation - while remaining supremely musical and smooth.  The bass is very extended and well defined - the treble clear and transparent with absolutely no hint of glare or etch.  Tonally, they transmit a rich natural tone.  The sound staging is deep and holographic - more so then the U12.  Note I have two of the U8's one with Nichicon Fine Gold caps and the other with Nichicon HWs.  Otherwise they are stock.


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice.  I think i have found a very good piece indeed. I put the FGs already in my unit as well. 16V/2200uF. 
 I like so much its flexibility. It gives me the opportunity to try every dac in the market and i have always a project to buy a good old one. 
 The Melodious will be the corner stone of my future system. Actually it is already the cs of my present system. 


> I added dedicated *power supply filtering* on each (Common Mode and Differential Mode), this did improve the clarity and transparency.
 
 Interesting, what is it in practical terms ? a filter ?


> The U12's sound very good - but a bit veiled compared to the U8's in my systems.   Second note my three systems are very highly evolved - with high end sources, advanced designed music servers, and refined amps and speakers (and HP's in my third system HD800/Moon Black Dragon V2 cable).  So changes become very noticeable and distinct.
> With these units I have now tried 10 different DDC USB interfaces (see the beginning of the thread for the list) - without a doubt the U8's are amazing and hands down beat every other DDC I have owned.  They are not the best in terms of QC - but have very good components (Talema trans, Murata IT, etc...) and design (multiple layers of highly regulated and filtered PS).  I have not had the BADA or the Hydra X+ yet.
 
  
 I am sure the U12 can only benefit from a better PS and PS can have a big impact on sound indeed. 
 Of course a lot depends also on the quality of the mains voltage and the noise.  But usually there is always some noise coming from the electrical grid and the level of suppression of this noise in the power supply makes the difference.
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Interesting, what is it in practical terms ? a filter ?


 
 Just a dedicated power line filter to feed the U8 and the U12 - yes they do make a difference.  And for $85 a bargain.  I added second separate ones for the DAC - that was not much of an improvement over just running both the DAC and U8/U12 on one filter.  But I needed it any for a separate outlet for my tuner, turntable and phono pre-amp.  Those were helped as well in SQ.  What an easy add on.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Just *a dedicated power line filter *to feed the U8 and the U12 - yes they do make a difference.  And for $85 a bargain.
> I added second separate ones for the DAC - that was *not much of an improvement over just running both the DAC and U8/U12 on one filter*.
> But I needed it any for a separate outlet for my tuner, turntable and phono pre-amp.  Those were helped as well in SQ.  What an easy add on.


 
  
 Hi and thanks so much again.
 Actually i have noticed poor mains noise filtering in both Gustard and Melodious.  I do not understand why they have skipped on this extremely important issue. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Just a different type of transformer, better diodes or some caps and chokes, of the type i have seen in other better units,  would have been very beneficial
 and avoided the need of an additional external filter ?
 Usually mains are quite dirty in the cities.
 I have decided for a different approach.  A completely new PS feeding better filtered DC to the board bypassing transformer and rectifying diodes on the pcb
 Actually i am thinking to desolder them ... i am sure this will be extremely beneficial ... completely sure.  Almost ...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I have collected, thank you very much again, enough information telling me that the stock PS is a weak point.
 Very very unfortunately i am not skilled enoug to mess with the parts on the pcb ... from the coming of smd i lost all my hopes about modification of circuits (PS aside of course that are not smd  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )
 Thanks a lot again.
 Kindest regards,  gino


----------



## DACLadder

The Luckit 2.23 driver did not fix my issue of the U12 dropping out in the middle of playback and emitting a low-level tone.  Thank goodness the tone volume is low as it is unsettling to be listening intently and all of a sudden about a 2Khz tone. 
  
 When the problem happens Windows 8.1 thinks the USB interface is normal as near as I can tell.  I can see packets being shifted with USB sniffer software so the problem is further downstream of the Xmos USB interface.  JRiver is running normally at the time.  The U12 just locks up and requires a power cycle to restart.  When the problem happens the LCD displays " - - - -".  It is like the U12 or parts of the U12 just reset and do not recover. 
  
 The U12 electronics are fairly simple.  There is an Altera FPGA that takes in the Xmos data output plus the two clocks, reformats, and drives the I2S, serial outputs, and front panel LCD display.  I thoroughly checked the soldering on all components where I can and looks great. 
  
 I haven't given up hope as I like a challenge but it will be difficult to reverse engineer the design and figure out the issue cause.  I have the U12 top cover removed and looking at signals trying to figure out how it works.  I also have Xmos datasheets and reference designs as a guide.   About the only thing I cannot check is the Xmos soldering as the package is a ball grid array.  And forget exchanging the Xmos as I do not have the equipment to resolder BGAs.   Hope you have better luck with your U12.


----------



## MINORISUKE

DSD channel swap from HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD (U12):
  
 I posted in MX-U8 thread that my DSD channel mix (not swap) issue had been solved today.
 At the same time, I found DSD channel swap (not mix) at least with my U12.
 I used a conversion board of Tanly (HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD --> "normal" I2S/DSD).
 PCM was no problem, but DSD channel swap happened.
 Note that this has noting to do with a dffferent pin assignment of U12 vs. PS Audio, as Tanly's pin assignment is the same as that of U12.  If this is the reason, then PCM must be swapped, too, which is not the case.
  
 I asked several owners of both U12 & DAC-X12 conneciting with an HDMI cable to check if DSD channel mix (not swap) happened.  All of them said the playback was normal (without mix, without swap).  I assume swapped channel from U12 is swapped again in DAC-X12 if connected via a HDMI cable.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks so much again.
> Actually i have noticed poor mains noise filtering in both Gustard and Melodious.  I do not understand why they have skipped on this extremely important issue.
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I think trying to re-engineer the on board PS is maybe overkill - just add some well designed PS filtering and your set.  Remember the MX-U8 uses multiple stages of power rectification and filtering - including individual filtering and rec for each clock.
  
 BTW I was reading in a HiFI magazine about this amazing DAC/USB that cost $5000 - it used three of the same Talema transformers as the MX-U8 - three of the exact same ones.  They can't be too bad.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> The Luckit 2.23 driver did not fix my issue of the U12 dropping out in the middle of playback and emitting a low-level tone.  Thank goodness the tone volume is low as it is unsettling to be listening intently and all of a sudden about a 2Khz tone.
> 
> When the problem happens Windows 8.1 thinks the USB interface is normal as near as I can tell.  I can see packets being shifted with USB sniffer software so the problem is further downstream of the Xmos USB interface.  JRiver is running normally at the time.  The U12 just locks up and requires a power cycle to restart.  When the problem happens the LCD displays " - - - -".  It is like the U12 or parts of the U12 just reset and do not recover.
> 
> ...


 

 Are you using the I2S outputs?  Does it happen on the SPDIF's?  One last try - the latest MB chipset designs have some tricky USB features.  I would go into the BIOS and turn on latency USB devices and turn off more advanced USB BIOS features


----------



## abartels

dacladder said:


> The Luckit 2.23 driver did not fix my issue of the U12 dropping out in the middle of playback and emitting a low-level tone.  Thank goodness the tone volume is low as it is unsettling to be listening intently and all of a sudden about a 2Khz tone.
> 
> When the problem happens Windows 8.1 thinks the USB interface is normal as near as I can tell.  I can see packets being shifted with USB sniffer software so the problem is further downstream of the Xmos USB interface.  JRiver is running normally at the time.  The U12 just locks up and requires a power cycle to restart.  When the problem happens the LCD displays " - - - -".  It is like the U12 or parts of the U12 just reset and do not recover.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Hello DACLadder,
  
 You modified your U12 with Crysteks, and another LVDS output chip.
 I would think there's something wrong with your mods.
  
*The horizontal stripes on your U12 means the XMOS is not locked onto a frequency!!!!!!*
  
  
 I once had this problem when I wanted to demonstrate a friend how my U12 sounds with original Gustard XO's, and guess what happened?
 No sound, and stripes on the display.
  
 I figured it out, the housing of the XO's touched the pins which I soldered onto the pcb. Because the pins have a bigger diameter the housing
 was connecting to the pins!!!
  
 I dont know how your Crystek adapters look like on the bottom of the pcb, maybe they create some kind of short-circuit.
  
 Check this please!
  
 Good luck!
  
  
 Regards,
 Alex
  
  
 EDIT:
  
 Try putting back the U12 stock XO's and see if it solves your locking problem, just to narrow down troubleshooting. Be careful not to place them "to deep" on the sockets (pins)
 to avoiding short-circuit.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> I think trying to re-engineer the on board PS is maybe overkill - just add some well designed PS filtering and your set.  Remember the MX-U8 uses multiple stages of power rectification and filtering - including individual filtering and rec for each clock.
> 
> BTW I was reading in a HiFI magazine about this amazing DAC/USB that cost $5000 - it used three of the same Talema transformers as the MX-U8 - three of the exact same ones.  They can't be too bad.


 
  
 Hi rb2013,
  
 Those Talema's aren't bad at all, but, the higher the Amperage the lower the DC-resistance, the better the dampingfactor (the resistance the powerrails see when looking back into supply).
 Thats the reason why I chose for 2 Amp windings instead of 1.07 Amp windings of stock Talema ( my Noratel was 15VA 2x9V, so they had 15/18= 0.83 Amp windings only,,,,,,)
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## jodokus

Is it normal that the U12 stays powered on (sample rate led on), when my HTPC is shutdown?


----------



## b0bb

jodokus said:


> Is it normal that the U12 stays powered on (sample rate led on), when my HTPC is shutdown?


 
 If the HTPC's BIOS has wake on usb enabled the USB port remains powered and the U12 will stay on.
  
 Turning off this function will depend on whether you need to be able to wake the PC using the mouse or keyboard press.


----------



## jodokus

I checked, but it's off in the bios, will check again tonight. Would you recommend keeping the U12 on, performance wise?


----------



## b0bb

jodokus said:


> I checked, but it's off in the bios, will check again tonight. Would you recommend keeping the U12 on, performance wise?


 

 I would leave it on for performance reasons, the crystal oscillators (XOs) need 10-20mins to fully stabilize from a cold power on.
  
 If you are using Windows 7 and later it can enable wake via the ACPI or similar mechanism


----------



## b0bb

dacladder said:


> The Luckit 2.23 driver did not fix my issue of the U12 dropping out in the middle of playback and emitting a low-level tone.  Thank goodness the tone volume is low as it is unsettling to be listening intently and all of a sudden about a 2Khz tone.
> 
> When the problem happens Windows 8.1 thinks the USB interface is normal as near as I can tell.  I can see packets being shifted with USB sniffer software so the problem is further downstream of the Xmos USB interface.  JRiver is running normally at the time.  The U12 just locks up and requires a power cycle to restart.  When the problem happens the LCD displays " - - - -".  It is like the U12 or parts of the U12 just reset and do not recover.
> 
> ...


 

 I suggest putting back the original 45Mhz crystal and see if the lock problem goes away.
  
 A drop out followed by a tone or continuous clicks may be due to a glitch in the power supply causing the processor in the XMOS to crash, the Panasonic FRs you are using may have a too low an ESR for the 317 regulator, consider changing them back, 317s are very finicky around low ESR caps, the older NatSemi datasheets actually talk about it, another option is to add a 10uF Tantalum at the regulator input.


----------



## DACLadder

b0bb said:


> I suggest putting back the original 45Mhz crystal and see if the lock problem goes away.
> 
> A drop out followed by a tone or continuous clicks may be due to a glitch in the power supply causing the processor in the XMOS to crash, the Panasonic FRs you are using may have a too low an ESR for the 317 regulator, consider changing them back, 317s are very finicky around low ESR caps, the older NatSemi datasheets actually talk about it, another option is to add a 10uF Tantalum at the regulator input.


 
 Thanks for all your help.  Debug is on hold until I return from holiday vacation.   The problem happened when the U12 was new without any modifications.  I thought at the time I just needed a better driver.  The issue happens whether I used the Jcat USB daughter board with ultra-clean, linear +5V feeding the U12 or using the PC motherboard USB ports.
  
 When I return I will try a different computer and USB cable for testing.  But I never have any problems with other USB audio devices on the same setup.


----------



## auvgeek

b0bb said:


> I would leave it on for performance reasons, the crystal oscillators (XOs) need 10-20mins to fully stabilize from a cold power on.


 
 Is there any way to get the U12 to stay on without a source plugged in? I like to leave all my stuff powered on all the time (for performance reasons), and I definitely noticed the U12 sounds much better after 12-14 hours on, but I use my Macbook Pro as the source and I can't leave it on my desk all the time.
  
 Other than that, I can't imagine beating the value of the U12. I was seriously considering a Tanly, but then I picked up a used U12 for $100 shipped. A fantastic upgrade from optical straight out of the MBPr. The thing I noticed the most is how much more realistic cymbals sound.
  
 Can't wait to start modding!


----------



## b0bb

auvgeek said:


> Is there any way to get the U12 to stay on without a source plugged in? I


 
 Plug it into a powered USB hub


----------



## jodokus

b0bb said:


> I would leave it on for performance reasons, the crystal oscillators (XOs) need 10-20mins to fully stabilize from a cold power on.
> 
> If you are using Windows 7 and later it can enable wake via the ACPI or similar mechanism




Thanks! I'll just leave it on the way it is. The Gustard is warmin up nicely!


----------



## MINORISUKE

Gustard DAC-X20
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.35.1TBYRG&id=520159383364&ns=1&abbucket=14#detail
 I found this on Taobao.  It seems that Gustard is going to control its selling price: USD 799 (without USB input); USD 866 (with USB input)
 ES9018 dual mono


----------



## vincponc2610

Please create a separate thread for DYI modification of the product.
 People which are not willing to do DIY just want to have reviews of the out of the box product.
 It is too difficult to separate OOTB review from DYI details.


----------



## abartels

vincponc2610 said:


> Please create a separate thread for DYI modification of the product.
> People which are not willing to do DIY just want to have reviews of the out of the box product.
> It is too difficult to separate OOTB review from DYI details.


 
  
 You can read out of the box reviews here as well. The U12 performes great, what do you want to know?
  
 Best bang for buck? 
  
 -1 Gustard U12
 -2 Melodious MX-U8
 -3 Tanly
  
 Best Sound Quality?
  
 -1 Tanly
 -2 Melodious MX-U8
 -3 Gustard u12
  
  
 We do try to make it for other people as easy as possible to convert their out of the box device into a high-end device, for a convenient price tag,
 We just can't deny that there's a modification possibility for everyone overhere, even the ones with absolutely no electronic skills.
  
  
 If you want to know how it sounds, please just ask, people overhere at Head-Fi will tell you (if you find this thread too technical to read).
  
 Regards,
  
  
  
 Alex


----------



## vincponc2610

Thanks for the reply.
 I was not aware of tanly.
 Where can I find more info about it ?


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> Gustard DAC-X20
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.35.1TBYRG&id=520159383364&ns=1&abbucket=14#detail
> I found this on Taobao.  It seems that Gustard is going to control its selling price: USD 799 (without USB input); USD 866 (with USB input)
> ES9018 dual mono


 

 I see they're using a 100Mhz Chinese TXCO - but no external clock port - too bad.  Five digital inputs - that should cover everyone.


----------



## genclaymore

Wish I had a pot of gold, because the X20 looks interesting to me then the X12, But the X12 is more realistic for me to get a hold off. Unless Massdrop get a hold of those X20's but I doubt that happen any time soon.


----------



## MINORISUKE

minorisuke said:


> Gustard DAC-X20
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.35.1TBYRG&id=520159383364&ns=1&abbucket=14#detail
> I found this on Taobao.  It seems that Gustard is going to control its selling price: USD 799 (without USB input); USD 866 (with USB input)
> ES9018 dual mono


 

 The optional USB-I2S/DSD board seems to use a connector with several large pins, which means MX-U8 I2S/DSD output can be fed to DAC-X20 easily, I assume.


----------



## b0bb

minorisuke said:


> Gustard DAC-X20
> http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.35.1TBYRG&id=520159383364&ns=1&abbucket=14#detail
> I found this on Taobao.  It seems that Gustard is going to control its selling price: USD 799 (without USB input); USD 866 (with USB input)
> ES9018 dual mono


 

 $870 the USB input version of the X20
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-DAC-X20-Super-Ultimate-HIFI-DAC-2xES9018-XMOS-USB-384KHZ-DSD64-128-/111708547958


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> $870 the USB input version of the X20
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-DAC-X20-Super-Ultimate-HIFI-DAC-2xES9018-XMOS-USB-384KHZ-DSD64-128-/111708547958


 

 I'm inclined to the more tonally rich R2R DAC's especially with a true tubed output.  The Lite DAC60 in stock form is pretty amazing - with some mods it's killer good.  Smooth, musical, rich natural tone, detailed and transparent.
  
 $650 shipped with buyer protection.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lite-DAC-60-Hi-Fi-D-A-Convertor-Tube-Output-Brand-New-/321461674743?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ad89be2f7
  
 With some mods and great tubes - rivals and in some ways exceeds my APL DAC that cost 6 times as much.
  
 What you don't get is I2S and native DSD - but so what.  If the SPDIF sounds great who cares (especially with all the issue surrounding hdmi/rj45 i2s).  And how many real DSD files are available (versus DSD conversion of PCM files) and those can be played with a DSD to PCM Foobar converter.  What you get is sumptuous musicality, extended bass and excellent detail and holographic sound staging.
  
 The link to the mods I did to get it to world class.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
  
 Some info on the pluses and minuses on different DAC designs (The ESS Sabre have been know to be 'hard' sounding).
  
Here are some great articles that explains resistor ladder DACs vs the sigma-delta and multi-bit newer designs.  All have issues.  The R2R's are very expensive and difficult to make, the S-D have major filtering issues and the Multi-bits have on silicon opamps.

http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
http://funwithaudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/today-in-electronics-everything-is-made.html

Some of the very best DAC's use R2R ladder DACs - like Audio Note, Total DAC, MSB, Audio-gd (Master 7 - uses the same PCM1704 but twice as many), Zanden, etc...


----------



## jodokus

I'm waiting for the Elfidelity AXF100 Pro USB card to clean up the USB bus, but also read some positive comments about the Audioquest Jitterbug. Do you guys think the Jitterbug does mostly
 the same as the Elfidelity card? Or would they be a good team together?


----------



## rb2013

Anybody try the Hydra Z?  It looks outstanding Crystek 950/957 clocks, excellent PS filtering and USB isolation.
  
 http://audiobyte.net/products/hydra-z
  


> *MORE FLEXIBLE* The Hydra Z can be powered in 3 (three) ways :
> 
> Directly from USB
> From an external, fixed 5Vdc/0.5-1A power supply
> ...


 


> *DSD*
> 2.8 MHz (DSD64) - DoP, native
> 5.6 MHz (DSD128) - DoP, native
> 11.2 MHz (DSD256) - native (via ASIO)
> ...


 


> Native MacOS 10.6 and later
> Native Linux with UAC2 compliant kernel
> ASIO, WASAPI, KS, DS drivers for Win XP to W8 32/64 bit
> Recommended players : Foobar2000, Audirvana Plus, Jriver etc.


----------



## bballas

Chinese brand usb interface ,with XILINX FPGA，and CRYSTEK oscillator.
  
 Half price than hidra z.


----------



## m0reilly

but not THE crystek. link to the device?


----------



## m0reilly

yep, a tanly. still like a purchase link for us in the usa...the hydra for me would be around $300 more or less. no mods needed on the face of it...


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> Anybody try the Hydra Z?  It looks outstanding Crystek 950/957 clocks, excellent PS filtering and USB isolation.
> 
> http://audiobyte.net/products/hydra-z




Did not try the HydraZ but here's some (hopefully) useful info. 
AFAIK, the company behind audiobyte is a MSB partner .. they write the MSB software and also sell a MSB-like DAC under some other brand (rockna?).

Judging by that, the Hydra should be a TOTL device ... and for people in the EU it's prolly cheaper than Tanly (no extra VAT, customs tax and less shipping costs) .. plus a reliable EU warranty. May even be cheaper from the US cause you normally get the EU VAT (~22%) back. 

You may wanna contact user dan.gheorghe or check his review site .. he seems to know the people behind audiobyte


----------



## rb2013

bballas said:


> Chinese brand usb interface ,with XILINX FPGA，and CRYSTEK oscillator.
> 
> Half price than hidra z.


 

 I know all about the Tanly - it's been discussed here for months. It's not half the price, it's slightly less costly when all the costs (like German middlemen addons) are concerned.  That is with no guarantee at all - even if it arrives DOA.  You can buy a Hydra Z right now for $700 here on Headfi check the classifieds.
  
 I suggest you do some research  first before posting rehashed and/or false information


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Did not try the HydraZ but here's some (hopefully) useful info.
> AFAIK, the company behind audiobyte is a MSB partner .. they write the MSB software and also sell a MSB-like DAC under some other brand (rockna?).
> 
> Judging by that, the Hydra should be a TOTL device ... and for people in the EU it's prolly cheaper than Tanly (no extra VAT, customs tax and less shipping costs) .. plus a reliable EU warranty. May even be cheaper from the US cause you normally get the EU VAT (~22%) back.
> ...


 

 Yes the parent company is called Rockna.  The technology in Audiobyte is a trickle down from Rockna.
  
 Here is a excellent review of their Wavedream.  The Hydra X+ is discussed in the review and very favorably.  It was the model before the Z, those can be bought used for less then $500.
  
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/rockna/1.html
  
 Interesting quoted from the article:


> *Whilst the current PCM/DSD debate* gets more confusing with each passing day—experts disagree, manufacturers disagree, digital converter and recording equipment specs disagree on whether 'pure' DSD and PCM even exists on the _recording_ never mind playback side—there's far more consensus about the ideal way to decode PCM. In theory. Say hello to multi-bit ladder-type aka R2R converters (click *here* for some tech talk on the subject). But why are so few actually doing it in practice today? Because such silicon has fallen out of popularity with the chip manufacturers whilst remaining NOS inventories are being depleted. Curiously the same is true for bona-fide 1-bit DSD converter chips. They've vanished for good. It's peculiar that given the current format debate moving briskly through the audiophile specialty press, purpose-engineered conversion silicon for either format is no longer being made. (Which isn't 100% true. Cees Ruijtenberg of Metrum Acoustics for example keeps building R2R DACs with currently made silicon, albeit from the non-audio industrial sector to remain unidentified.)


 


> For those not wishing to spend their own years and discretionary funds in R&D of the same, MSB's discrete converter modules are available for OEM (we've previously encountered them in the Bulgarian Thrax Maximinus) just as are Andreas Koch's FPGA-driven DSD algorithms. With the mention of MSB and OEM—the latter bidirectional—we now arrive at today's subject. Welcome the Romanian Rockna Audio WaveDream DAC. Whether single-ended or balanced, in Reference or Signature guise, it gets two or four 2nd-gen modules sourced from MSB "capable of a sustained maximum sample rate of 3MHz". Beyond that designer Nicolae Jitariu pursues his own paths just as past their custom ceramic Koch board Nagra do with their HD DAC. Interestingly Nicolae has provided his own OEM/ODM assistance to Audio Mirror, Acoustic Precision, Fase, Jadis, Nonsolomusica, PS Audio (PerfectWave transport), Wadia, Goldmund and, yes, MSB. Though his name might still be news—Rockna Audio have been around for 15 years—you could already be familiar with his work.


 


> As though to underscore his engineering credentials, Nicolae's €699 Hydra X+ under his second lower-tier brand *Audiobyte* performs its battery-powered USB bridge functions with a custom-coded Xilinx Spartan 6 as another FPGA custom job. To it he adds premium Crystek clocks and I*²*S output via HDMI. The Hydra X1 is thus direct competition for Audiophilleo and SOtM. Obviously the upscale WaveDream DAC gets the same proprietary USB solution, not a generic M2Tech, XMOS, Amanero & Co module. But our DAC get a lot more that's not off the rack. This includes selectable digital filters written by Jitariu's team. Those exploit 15 GMACS of processing power from 58 DSP blocks and "avoid standard Nyquist rate filters" in favour of "an advanced 2000-tap convolution filter created from a Parks-McClellan equiripple combined with a raised cosine type". Even his Femtovox clocking scheme is different*. The linear power supplies get three transformers and 20 linear regulators "designed from scratch for low impedance and ultra-low noise".


 


> _"The heart of the WaveDream clocking system is a digitally programmable low-jitter clock. Its precision is set by a 38-bit control word which gives an accuracy of <1ppb (parts per billion). This clock generation creates a very low jitter of 0.3ps or 300fs on any input sample rate. In absolute terms there are claims of lower jitter figures on the market which can be obtained only by using oven-controlled crystals at single frequencies. With sample rates varying from 44.1 to 384kHz, it’s unlikely that a DAC can work with a single master-clock frequency unless it uses an ASRC with its own set of problems. Our digitally controlled clock allows bit-transparent operation without the smearing caused by an ASRC block. But the master-clock generation technique isn’t all. To properly adjust the digitally controlled oscillator frequency, our system measures the incoming sample rate with high accuracy. Whilst that could simply program the DCO, we use a complex algorithm that takes care of the real frequency that's written in real-time to the DCO. The algorithm keeps frequency variations to a minimum to yield a fixed frequency in the short term and to track source frequency deviations over the long term. The resulting loop corner frequency of the system is as low as 0.5Hz."_


 
 They really have a unique solution and it looks to be superior to the off the shelf implementation of the XMOS in the Tanly.
  
 Other advanatages of the Z - word clock output to possibly feed a DAC.
  
 His take on the Hydra X+:


> Hydra X+ retailers by the way report good workings of its I²S output into the equivalent port of Wyred4Sound's DAC2se-DSD converter (alas not without small ticks for DSD). Sonore and PS Audio also support I²S over HDMI. Such parallel-data ports can thus be used not only from a spinning transport like Paul McGowan's PerfectWave but also with this USB bridge (hence such devices are also known as CATs or _computer audio transports_). Whether that expense including a short HDMI leash will be worth the sonic uptick over going with a DAC's own USB solution should depend on your DAC and the overall resolution of your system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Excellent PS design and much attention to USB isolation


> "Across the isolation barrier a differential comparator receives the logic transition information, then sets/resets a flip-flop and the output circuit accordingly. A periodic update pulse sent across the barrier ensures proper DC level of the output. If this DC refresh pulse is not received every 4µs, the input is assumed to be unpowered or not being actively driven and the failsafe circuit drives the output to a logic high state. The small capacitance and resulting time constant provide fast operation with signaling rates available from 0-150Mbps. The A-, B- and C-option devices have TTL input thresholds and a noise filter at the input that prevents transient pulses from being passed to the output of the device."


 


> As these photos show, the '+' version Hydra has the clearly bigger battery over the original.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Sound quality:


> Sonically my $1'350 two-box SOtM ride with super-clock feature had no definitive advantage. If there were any differences (depending on track I felt quite uncertain), they operated solely in the domains of relative soundstage depth and subjective speed. Sometimes the Hydra X+ seemed to have me more aware of a bit of added stage depth. At other times and obviously without any change in pitch, I thought the SOtM was the more relaxed to play it marginally slower. Because these observations were so subtle, ambivalent and as such unreliable, I decided to write them off. For all practical intents and purposes, these components were ideally matched equivalents and as such perfect stand-ins. Given the price offset, for many Rockna would be the obvious choice. It also passes 32/384. For those who hate black, sideways cable routing and don't do anything above 24/192, SOtM would swing the vote despite the added cost.


 


> Compared to Metrum Hex direct as the type of comparison potential buyers would find most relevant, the Hydra X+ improved what I thought of as timing. This manifested most notably on transients as the initial rise of sounds from silence being better defined. During complex passages this led to greater definition. It directly assisted better separation as the ability to follow many overlaid intertwined lines without suffering shadowing effects of partial obscuration. Lastly, minor tendencies for image bloat disappeared. This action is a very subtle shrinkage or firming up that comes from reduced micro blur. Very attack-driven crisp music makes it easiest to first hear the improved leading-edge definition. Think percussion and plucked strings. Gentle legato-rich recordings or those where microphones stood at a distance to capture more mixed-in reflections take steps back from this quality. It still applies of course but less overtly so.
> 
> The same goes for programmatic complexity. Girl+guitar fare is so non-challenging on complexity that you won't benefit from improved separation unless you started out very poorly indeed. In short, depending on how good the USB transceiver of your DAC is, an add-on external USB bridge will make less and less to no difference. In my financial comfort zone, I've simply not come across a DAC yet which couldn't be at least subtly improved by the best USB bridges à la Audiophilleo or SOtM. Now the Rockna Audio Hydra X+ adds itself to that list. To quantify the level of improvement I experience with adding a superior outboard USB bridge to DACs of Metrum Hex, AURALiC Vega or Eximus DP-1 caliber, I'd call it rather _smaller_ than swapping complete cable looms as I did for recent reviews of *Absolue Créations* and *Arkana Physical Research*. Complete swaps of cable sets (interconnects, speaker cables, power cords) can affect tone and colour density, dynamics, body, bass weight and shift the transient/bloom/decay balance. Except for the last, in my context those qualities don't really apply for today's type of device. If you began on a lower tier of converter quality, I'd imagine that to become more inclusive.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Now the Z improves further on this design - with all cables running in the back of the unit.  Seperate chassis for PS.


> The previous model of Hydra, the X+, has built its reputation based on excellent sound quality. From our perspective, it is time to move on, and offer a new interface, that we named usb audio playback bridge.
> While raising the bar even more in sound quality and keeping the existing set of features precedently available, the new Hydra Z comes with a list of improvements that we’re happy to share. Among the changes are a complete redesign of the digital board, changes in the way the Hydra is powered, new output configuration, new chassis and many other refinements – please see below.
> *MORE FLEXIBLE* The Hydra Z can be powered in 3 (three) ways :
> 
> ...


----------



## prot

rb2013
I think we've read the same 6moons reviews . Those audiobyte/rockna guys sound like a serious bunch, not your regular audio-mill. If you get one of their devices I'd be very interested to hear about it. Meantime, looks like that Dan guy already has a review with nice pics (including inner side) http://headmania.org/2015/04/23/audiobyte-hydra-z-review/


----------



## riffer

The one thing I can't find out about the Hydra-Z is what the pinout is for the I2s over HDMI;  just"Adjustable I2S output clock polarity, to match all HDMI/I2S/LVDS dacs available" and some additional info in the manual.  No diagrams or anything to explain in greater detail.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> @rb2013
> I think we've read the same 6moons reviews
> 
> 
> ...


 

 That's an excellent review - I wonder how much a sound difference there is between the X+ and the Z.  The Z shut down the unused clock - and as they say this does reduce phase noise.
  
 Also this was interesting:


> If you choose to use USB isolators, then sample rate will become limited, which is not an option.  If you choose to isolate the output, you are adding significant amounts of jitter to the signal. By using a clever circuit topology, the Hydra design avoids these two bottlenecks. The isolation is placed between the ARM processor and the FPGA audio core, therefore not limiting the bandwidth. Being before the clocks, its jitter contribution becomes irrelevant.


 
 The approach for the U12 and MXU8 is having the isolating the outputs - one for the SPDIF and one for the AES outputs on the MX-U8 you can see the Muratas right next to the output connectors.

  
 On the U12 Gustard uses the Pulse transformers

  
 So does this mean they are adding jitter?  If so by how much?  What if they are eliminated?
  
 The Tanly uses a FPGA solution like the Hydra's.
  
 But is it implemented with the same type of design? What kind of 'special retiming is applied just before the outputs"?


> Unlike other products which only specify “low jitter clocks”, here is exactly what you will find inside : 2xCCHD-950/957 type from Crystek. These are real audio grade clocks. You can check real graphs for them here. These clocks are system masters. In order to remove any jitter induced by the FPGA circuit itself, special retiming is applied just before the Hydra Z outputs.


 
  
 On the PS side - I guess the Z stock is non-battery fed.  Only with the ZPM is it using the super capacitors for power.
  
 So the X+ has a plus in it's column as the LiPo battery is built in at no extra charge.  I imagine these can be had used for $300-$400 depending on condition.
  
 Speaking of power supplies this was the comment on the ZPM:


> I was very curious to see how the new linear power supply affected the sound, and  it wasn’t disappointing at all. It had an impressive impact on the sound quality as it brought better transparency, bigger soundstage, better instrument separation and layering, faster and more powerful transients, better textures on instruments and voices, and of course better bass control and punch.  So, as you can see, everything was better with it, taking the quality to a whole new level.


 
 The advantage of the 5VDC input is there many excellent - and relatively inexpensive high quality PS available - aside from the ZPM.
  
 And an interesting side note link to this article discussing the Forza Hyrid Series Twin USB Cable
 http://headmania.org/2014/11/27/forza-claire-hybrid-twin-usb-cable-review/
  
 I will have to get one of those for a listen...for the U12 it would be very interesting to hear (using the linear PS to power the relay).
 http://forzaaudioworks.com/en/product.php?id_product=46


----------



## bballas

Hydra z suckers!!!This is Gustard topic!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## m0reilly

you are correct


----------



## Noodlz

Wow lotsa info. i didn't even know about the hydra-z till i saw this. Now here's my question, given my current setup (iphone via CCK >>(USB) >> Schitt Wyrd >> Yulong D200 >> (XLR) >> Gustard H10), if i got a U12 would it improve the sound quality much? at all? (I would be using the U12 to the D200 via AES, since the D200 doesnt have I2S). 
  
 How about the Hydra-Z? the price for that is kinda crazy though... at that pricepoint i might as well spend a lil more and buy the Gustard X20


----------



## rb2013

bballas said:


> Hydra z suckers!!!This is Gustard topic!!!!!!!!!!!


 

 Thanks for moderating my thread. Cheers! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 PS Weren't you just posting pictures of the Tanly on a Gustard thread?  Just sayn'


----------



## rb2013

riffer said:


> The one thing I can't find out about the Hydra-Z is what the pinout is for the I2s over HDMI;  just"Adjustable I2S output clock polarity, to match all HDMI/I2S/LVDS dacs available" and some additional info in the manual.  No diagrams or anything to explain in greater detail.


 
 That's a good question - will have to research that one a bit more.  It sounds like it adjusts the pinouts to the DAC?
  


noodlz said:


> Wow lotsa info. i didn't even know about the hydra-z till i saw this. Now here's my question, given my current setup (iphone via CCK >>(USB) >> Schitt Wyrd >> Yulong D200 >> (XLR) >> Gustard H10), if i got a U12 would it improve the sound quality much? at all? (I would be using the U12 to the D200 via AES, since the D200 doesnt have I2S).
> 
> How about the Hydra-Z? the price for that is kinda crazy though... at that pricepoint i might as well spend a lil more and buy the Gustard X20


 
 I think the U12 would be a setup at low cost.  The Hydra Z into the X20 will likely be better then directly into the X20 (superior USB processing).  The Z into the D200 could be an in between step.  With either the U12 or the Z - the Wyrd would not be needed.  So you could sell that to raise some funds.


----------



## Tamirci

Is the beauty of this device, Xmos, dedicated to usb use only?


----------



## bballas

rb 2013 you are one hydra fun right?


----------



## rb2013

tamirci said:


> Is the beauty of this device, Xmos, dedicated to usb use only?


 

 Well it uses a different USB decoding chip then the U12/MX-U8/Tanly which use the XMOS.  Not that the XMOS is necessarily bad - in fact Berkeley Audio Design use it in their $1800 sota USB bridge.  Albeit with excellent PS filtering.  In the past pages here much has been written about the BADA USB interface - so I won't rehash all that.  But here is a picture to confirm what I'm saying.
  


> The 'dirty' and 'clean' sides are both isolated by a chip. The lettering on the chip was removed, but I’m pretty sure this is the ADuM* chip, isolating the I2S lines between the XMOS chip and the SPDIF output.​​ ​ _*The ADuM chips are digital isolators based on the Analog Devices, Inc., iCoupler® technology. Combining high speed CMOS and monolithic transformer technologies, these isolation components provide outstanding performance characteristics superior to alternatives, such as optocouplers.​_​


 
  

  

  
 But the design of the Z is unique and may even be superior to the BADA USB (especially when fed by the ZPM).  I wish it was part of this shootout - strange to have left it out.
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/
  
 Now note that much different PS system in the BADA then the Tanly - but there are some similarities.  Many say it's that unique chip implementation for I2S isolation (under the red line) and the very high quality digital transformers that make the BADA shine.
  
 In any event in lieu of the XMOS chip the Z uses:


> As though to underscore his engineering credentials, Nicolae's €699 Hydra X+ under his second lower-tier brand *Audiobyte* performs its battery-powered USB bridge functions with a custom-coded Xilinx Spartan 6 as another FPGA custom job. To it he adds premium Crystek clocks and I*²*S output via HDMI. The Hydra X1 is thus direct competition for Audiophilleo and SOtM. Obviously the upscale WaveDream DAC gets the same proprietary USB solution, not a generic M2Tech, XMOS, Amanero & Co module. But our DAC get a lot more that's not off the rack. This includes selectable digital filters written by Jitariu's team. Those exploit 15 GMACS of processing power from 58 DSP blocks and "avoid standard Nyquist rate filters" in favour of "an advanced 2000-tap convolution filter created from a Parks-McClellan equiripple combined with a raised cosine type". Even his Femtovox clocking scheme is different*. The linear power supplies get three transformers and 20 linear regulators "designed from scratch for low impedance and ultra-low noise".


 
  
 Now note the use in their DAC of 20 linear regulators!  The advantage of the MX-U8 over the U12 is the greater use and better quality of the linear regulators and PS filters.  Including a more sophisticated group for each clock.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Well it uses a different USB decoding chip then the U12/MX-U8/Tanly which use the XMOS.  Not that the XMOS is necessarily bad - in fact Berkeley Audio Design use it in their $1800 sota USB bridge.  Albeit with excellent PS filtering.  In the past pages here much has been written about the BADA USB interface - so I won't rehash all that.  But here is a picture to confirm what I'm saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello all,
  
  
 I've contacted distributor AudioByte Hydra-Z and asked them for a demo, to compare with my MX-U8.
 Since i have holiday till 24th of August (between changing jobs) I have lots of spare time to compare 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Hope they will contact me soon.
  
*About my "Monster" MX-U8:*
  
 It's still gaining in SQ, as be it not as much as in the first 200 hours.
  
 I'm VERY happy with it, worth every penny! Instruments never sounded this kind of natural with full body, all details, richness, very very authentic.
 There's no recording I own that doesn't sound completely new to me, tons of detail with a naturalness never heard before.
  
  
 Curious how it wil keep-up in comparison with Hydra-Z (which looks VERY promising to me btw).
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## DACLadder

Several people have had strange issues connecting the Hydra-Z HDMI I2S to the AGD Master 7. Low distorted volume levels was the complaint. Could not figure it out looking at scope pictures and Hydra-Z as well.


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> Hi,  well so far I much prefer the MX-U8.  I have another U12 I just bought (my third - as I sold my other two original units after hearing the MX-U8), I want to try and mod it some more and see the results.
> 
> My MX-U8's have greater detail and a more incisive presentation - while remaining supremely musical and smooth.  The bass is very extended and well defined - the treble clear and transparent with absolutely no hint of glare or etch.  Tonally, they transmit a rich natural tone.  The sound staging is deep and holographic - more so then the U12.  Note I have two of the U8's one with Nichicon Fine Gold caps and the other with Nichicon HWs.  Otherwise they are stock.  I added dedicated power supply filtering on each (Common Mode and Differential Mode), this did improve the clarity and transparency.  The U12's sound very good - but a bit veiled compared to the U8's in my systems.   Second note my three systems are very highly evolved - with high end sources, advanced designed music servers, and refined amps and speakers (and HP's in my third system HD800/Moon Black Dragon V2 cable).  So changes become very noticeable and distinct.
> 
> With these units I have now tried 10 different DDC USB interfaces (see the beginning of the thread for the list) - without a doubt the U8's are amazing and hands down beat every other DDC I have owned.  They are not the best in terms of QC - but have very good components (Talema trans, Murata IT, etc...) and design (multiple layers of highly regulated and filtered PS).  I have not had the BADA or the Hydra X+ yet.


 
 have you compared the modded u8 vs tanly ?


----------



## m0reilly

dacladder said:


> Several people have had strange issues connecting the Hydra-Z HDMI I2S to the AGD Master 7. Low distorted volume levels was the complaint. Could not figure it out looking at scope pictures and Hydra-Z as well.


 
 i had channel swap using the hydra i2s with an x12 dac, but i haven't opened up the hydra to play with the its i2s options yet.


----------



## shaizada

I haven't been able to comb through this long thread about this "feature", but I think I remember someone asking if the U12 outputs simultaneously through multiple digital outputs.
  
 I can confirm that the Gustard U12 *does* output an AES and SPDIF Coax digital signal simultaneously to two different DACs at the same time.
  
 Now does the MX-U8 also do this?  I was hoping that the U12 didn't do it so I had a mental excuse to buy the MX-U8 as well...but the U12 does!


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> have you compared the modded u8 vs tanly ?


 

 No - As I stated here a few times.  I won't spend $600 with no guarantee at all - not even if it's DOA.  Not after my experiences with the MX-U8's.
  
 I think I might buy a Hydra Z though - if I can find one around that price.  Then add a Tera Dak linear PS. I sure once the Z+ is released there will be few around at good prices.
  
 At least I would be certain of support.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/301688490460?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hello all,
> 
> 
> I've contacted distributor AudioByte Hydra-Z and asked them for a demo, to compare with my MX-U8.
> ...


 

 That would be interesting!  Have them send you a ZPM as well.


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> i had channel swap using the hydra i2s with an x12 dac, but i haven't opened up the hydra to play with the its i2s options yet.


 

 i2s is a mess!  Somewhere along the line it needs to standardized like AES/SPDIF.


----------



## MINORISUKE

m0reilly said:


> i had channel swap using the hydra i2s with an x12 dac, but i haven't opened up the hydra to play with the its i2s options yet.


 
 I suppose the default I2S configuration of Hydra Z is "PS Audio", which means Pin No.1/3 and 7/9 are reversed compared with X12 (and U12, Tanly).  7/9 makes channel swap, 1/3 absolute phase polarity swap.
 On the other hand, I am sure that U12 has a channel swap for DSD.  The owners of both U12 and X12 say there is no channel swap for DSD by connecting both with an HDMI cable.
 This means X12 has a DSD channel swap internally in case HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD input is used.  Its USB input seems to have been fixed regarding this issue, but not for HDMI LVDS input.
 If Gustard fixes this for HDMI LVDS input, then the faulty output of U12 will become obvious and they have to fix U12 as well.
 I assume Gustard does not want to fix U12 and leave X12's HDMI LVDS faulty input intentionally unfixed.  I am also afraid that the new DAC-X20 might have the same issue.
 In case Hydra Z has no DSD channel swap (and it should be without such a problem), connecting Hydra Z to X12 will cause DSD channel swap due to X12.  You have to change the internal dip switch of Hydra Z every time you change between PCM and DSD.....
  
 Unless you experience channel swap for DSD with X12 (i.e., in your current Hydra Z configuration, PCM swapped, DSD also swapped), then Hydra Z has the same issue as U12.


----------



## m0reilly

just tried redbook files. i wonder if i set it to dsd over pcm it will correct? my next dac will be nos, so no i2s/dsd for the interim. thanks for the heads up, i believe you are correct.


----------



## MINORISUKE

m0reilly said:


> just tried redbook files. i wonder if i set it to dsd over pcm it will correct? my next dac will be nos, so no i2s/dsd for the interim. thanks for the heads up, i believe you are correct.


 
http://www.2l.no/hires/
 This is a famous site for all kinds of high resolution files.  You can try DSD128.
 The output of U12 for DSD is always DSD native (LDATA, RDATA, DSDCLK) regardless of USB input (DSD native or DoP), and I assume Hydra Z as well.
  
 To check if Hydra Z output is correct, you should experience PCM channel swap and DSD correct playback with your current Hydra Z dip switch position and X12.


----------



## hgpsemaj

It looks like a new comer,
  
 http://world.tmall.com/item/16859309652.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.1414651174895.5.Scd7OU&scm=1007.10146.6070.0&id=16859309652&pvid=4a4ef157-ae67-4a0b-b5ef-eb019a99067d&skuId=41395939971
  
  

  

  

  

  
  
 Regards,


----------



## abartels

hgpsemaj said:


> It looks like a new comer,
> 
> http://world.tmall.com/item/16859309652.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.1414651174895.5.Scd7OU&scm=1007.10146.6070.0&id=16859309652&pvid=4a4ef157-ae67-4a0b-b5ef-eb019a99067d&skuId=41395939971
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello Riemann,
  
 I can't see why this would be a new contender, it's psu is as simple as U12, it even hasn't I2S output, and price at RMB1599 isn't that cheap too.
 Only advantage it has is the anti-vibration method for the XO's.
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## hgpsemaj

Hello Alex,
  
 Yes, you're right, this new comer is truly lack of competitiveness. But it shares a common point  with Berkeley/Alpha, both are not equipped with I2S.
  
  
  

  
  Regards,
  
 Riemann


----------



## m0reilly

lite dac-60 arrived, installed magic tubes, plugged in hydra...holy hanna!!! sounds pretty!


----------



## DACLadder

I have a love/ hate relationship with the U12.
  
 Love - The price is right on this one.  And excellent HDMI I2S performance.   
  
 Love - It sounds great driving I2S to the AGD Master 7 DAC.  So good I like it as much as the Off Ramp 5 and adds even more weight, depth, and 3d which is wonderful.  
  
 Hate - The U12 XMOS USB interface is not consistent on my main PC.  My other USB sources play without any problems.  It plays OK for hours then drops out and requires reboots/ restarts to get if going again. I'll probably by another at the low price and give it another shot.
  
 Love - Changed the oscillators to Crystek and made a noticeable difference for the better.  The default oscillators are very good though considering the price. 
  
 Hate - Modified the HDMI I2S interface to make it "PS Audio" like.   The next design needs jumper to select polarity of the signals on the wires like the Hydra Z does.
  
  
 But the U12 sounds remarkably good for such a low price.  Spent another $100 on mods and still a bargain.   Wish it had better support but the next U12 I buy from Amazon I will make sure it works before modifying it.  Or else back it goes....


----------



## bimmer100

dacladder said:


> I have a love/ hate relationship with the U12.
> 
> Love - The price is right on this one.  And excellent HDMI I2S performance.
> 
> ...




You mention using it with the master 7 and prefer it over the OR5? Interesting.
I have the master11 with the via usb32. Yet will have the amanero combo 384 in the next week. I am not sure if you think this u12 will still help if I was to stream to my master11 via HDMi i2s. I guess I'm curious how easy it is to set it up this way. I did order the m11 with HDMi instead of rj45, with intention to potentially try i2s streaming. I'm a bit concerned if it's not very reliable. Also am very interested in these mods you have talked about. is it something you would do as a service? I likely would be using a stock one otherwise. Thanks DacLadder!


----------



## DACLadder

bimmer100 said:


> You mention using it with the master 7 and prefer it over the OR5? Interesting.
> I have the master11 with the via usb32. Yet will have the amanero combo 384 in the next week. I am not sure if you think this u12 will still help if I was to stream to my master11 via HDMi i2s. I guess I'm curious how easy it is to set it up this way. I did order the m11 with HDMi instead of rj45, with intention to potentially try i2s streaming. I'm a bit concerned if it's not very reliable. Also am very interested in these mods you have talked about. is it something you would do as a service? I likely would be using a stock one otherwise. Thanks DacLadder!


 
 Others are having no difficulty with the U12.  I probably have a lemon or compatibility with my system.  You have to modify the HDMI I2S output to be completely correct for a lot of DACs.  Yes, it does sound really good and makes the Master 7 shine.  I cannot do this as a service as I risk damage plus it is difficult enough for me to do on my own equipment.
  
 I would order the Master 11 with Amanero and HDMI I2S interface if that is possible.  Sounds like you did.  The Master 7 responds well to low jitter sources.  Give the Amanero a try and see how it sounds before buying other equipment at this time.


----------



## bimmer100

dacladder said:


> Others are having no difficulty with the U12.  I probably have a lemon or compatibility with my system.  You have to modify the HDMI I2S output to be completely correct for a lot of DACs.  Yes, it does sound really good and makes the Master 7 shine.  I cannot do this as a service as I risk damage plus it is difficult enough for me to do on my own equipment.



I totally understand  I may pick one of these up to give it a try. Hopefully switching the wiring to work with audio-Gd is easy.


----------



## bimmer100

dacladder said:


> Others are having no difficulty with the U12.  I probably have a lemon or compatibility with my system.  You have to modify the HDMI I2S output to be completely correct for a lot of DACs.  Yes, it does sound really good and makes the Master 7 shine.  I cannot do this as a service as I risk damage plus it is difficult enough for me to do on my own equipment.
> 
> I would order the Master 11 with Amanero and HDMI I2S interface if that is possible.  Sounds like you did.  The Master 7 responds well to low jitter sources.  Give the Amanero a try and see how it sounds before buying other equipment at this time.




I am going to give this u12 a fair shot. I will entertain this if it's able to improve the sound of my master11. I ordered a black one from Amazon. Along with a .5meter DHLabs silver HDMi cable. 
I just hope modding it for the audio-gd is easy enough.

Do you have anyone using devices like the schiit wyrd, or uptone USB regen? Any point?


----------



## bimmer100

I just realized there is the hydra Z and it looks great on paper. I don't know where to buy it or how much it costs. I hope I made a good choice with the u12.


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> lite dac-60 arrived, installed magic tubes, plugged in hydra...holy hanna!!! sounds pretty!


 

 Audio Nirvana! Wait until you swap those coupling caps! Cheers


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I just realized there is the hydra Z and it looks great on paper. I don't know where to buy it or how much it costs. I hope I made a good choice with the u12.


 

 Here is the link to Audiobyte's website.  The Z is way more expensive then the U12.  There is a used one on the classifieds I believe.
  
 Good luck with the U12.  It's a great choice for the money.
  
 http://audiobyte.net/products/hydra-z


----------



## DACLadder

bimmer100 said:


> Do you have anyone using devices like the schiit wyrd, or uptone USB regen? Any point?


 
 I use a JCAT USB board and linear +5V supply.  That board has made all my USB sources sound a little better.  But see how it goes first with what you have.   Some motherboards are better than others.


----------



## DACLadder

bimmer100 said:


> I just realized there is the hydra Z and it looks great on paper. I don't know where to buy it or how much it costs. I hope I made a good choice with the u12.


 
 If ordering from Amazon don't do any mods until it works to your satisfaction.  Otherwise send it back if not happy.  HDMI I2S will work with something like the Master 7 but L - R reversed and absolute phase not right but it played and made music out of the box.  It will gives good enough sound for an audition at least.


----------



## bimmer100

dacladder said:


> If ordering from Amazon don't do any mods until it works to your satisfaction.  Otherwise send it back if not happy.  HDMI I2S will work with something like the Master 7 but L - R reversed and absolute phase not right but it played and made music out of the box.  It will gives good enough sound for an audition at least.


 
 Good to know! thank you!
 I didn't know if i was to plug it in if anything would happen, something were to blow or whatever. So at least I can test it first. Hopefully the modification is fairly easy? is there any photo walkthroughs for how to do it? I can solder, but hopefully it's nothing to extreme 
  
 I will be using an Elfidelity USB card with linear power (TeraDAK) supply as well. Hope it will work well.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elfidelity-USB-Power-Source-PC-HiFi-Internal-USB-Power-Filter-Audio-DIY-USA-SHIP-/261887332510?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf9b3909e
  
 and
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/181467993450?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## MINORISUKE

dacladder said:


> .....
> HDMI I2S will work with something like the Master 7 but L - R reversed and absolute phase not right but it played and made music out of the box.
> .....


 
 Not correct.  I have posted this issue several times.
 HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD output of U12 works fine, if a connection to your DAC is correct.  This comes from the reversed pin assingment of No.1/3 and 7/9.  "PS Audio" assingment is not a standard, as there is no such one.  PS Audio is proposing all the manufacturers to follow their "suggestion", which the most of Chinese manufacturers simpy ignore.
 However, there is a channel swap for DSD playback.  PCM is correct.  I have to say this comes from the faulty firmware of U12.


----------



## DACLadder

minorisuke said:


> Not correct.  I have posted this issue several times.
> HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD output of U12 works fine, if a connection to your DAC is correct.  This comes from the reversed pin assingment of No.1/3 and 7/9.  "PS Audio" assingment is not a standard, as there is no such one.  PS Audio is proposing all the manufacturers to follow thier "suggestion", which the most of Chinese manufacturers simpy ignore.
> However, there is a channel swap for DSD playback.  PCM is correct.  I have to say this comes from the faulty firmware of U12.


 

 Sorry but not sure what I stated incorrectly for use with the Master 7 DAC only.   Out of the box the U12 played PCM through the Master 7 but the L - R channels are reversed as well as absolute audio phase on both channels.  I don't care about other DACs or DSD at this time.


----------



## bimmer100

dacladder said:


> Sorry but not sure what I stated incorrectly for use with the Master 7 DAC only.   Out of the box the U12 played PCM through the Master 7 but the L - R channels are reversed as well as absolute audio phase on both channels.  I don't care about other DACs or DSD at this time.


 
 I'm trying to find a DIY info to allow it to work with the Master11 without modification. Is that even possible? Any adapter?
 I may just return the thing if I can't hook it up without modification.


----------



## DACLadder

bimmer100 said:


> I'm trying to find a DIY info to allow it to work with the Master11 without modification. Is that even possible? Any adapter?
> I may just return the thing if I can't hook it up without modification.


 
 Since the Master 11 is PCM only it would have the same issue as the Master 7 when connected with a factory U12.  There are other USB converters that will work straight away on HDMI I2S without modification like the Off Ramp 5,  CI Audio Transient mk. II, and even the DI2014.
  
 A special HDMI cable that reverses I2S SDATA and LRCLK signals would do the same as the chip change on the U12.  But most HDMI cables are molded and no access to the wires.  A chip change was easiest for me and it was by luck that I could find a chip that was close enough to what I needed.  The U12 really needs jumpers to allow users to select polarity of the signals on the HDMI I2S interface.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> Since the Master 11 is PCM only it would have the same issue as the Master 7 when connected with a factory U12.  There are other USB converters that will work straight away on HDMI I2S without modification like the Off Ramp 5,  CI Audio Transient mk. II, and even the DI2014.


 

 Do you know if the Hydra Z is in that camp? PCM over HDMI i2s.


----------



## bimmer100

dacladder said:


> Since the Master 11 is PCM only it would have the same issue as the Master 7 when connected with a factory U12.  There are other USB converters that will work straight away on HDMI I2S without modification like the Off Ramp 5,  CI Audio Transient mk. II, and even the DI2014.



You mentioned in one of the threads how good the u12 sounds compared to the or5. I like that it's cheap. I may mod it anyhow. But sell it "modded" if I choose to not use it.
I also have a nfb-28 (2015 edition) with HDMi as well. Would like to use this for both. If thats relevant. 
I appreciate your help DACLadder, seems you have a bit of experience with this.


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> Do you know if the Hydra Z is in that camp? PCM over HDMI i2s.


 

 That is true but two users had issues with Master 7 DAC using the Hydra Z.  Weird problem of low, distorted volume in both cases and the jumpers did not help.


----------



## DACLadder

bimmer100 said:


> You mentioned in one of the threads how good the u12 sounds compared to the or5. I like that it's cheap. I may mod it anyhow. But sell it "modded" if I choose to not use it.
> I also have a nfb-28 (2015 edition) with HDMi as well. Would like to use this for both. If thats relevant.
> I appreciate your help DACLadder, seems you have a bit of experience with this.


 

 I can't answer for the NFB-28 as I have no experience.  But if it uses Kingwa's HMDI receiver board then may have issues.  I only really know well the PS Audio standard of PCM over HDMI I2S.


----------



## hgpsemaj

dacladder said:


> Since the Master 11 is PCM only it would have the same issue as the Master 7 when connected with a factory U12.  There are other USB converters that will work straight away on HDMI I2S without modification like the Off Ramp 5,  CI Audio Transient mk. II, and even the DI2014.
> 
> A special HDMI cable that reverses I2S SDATA and LRCLK signals would do the same as the chip change on the U12.  But most HDMI cables are molded and no access to the wires.  A chip change was easiest for me and it was by luck that I could find a chip that was close enough to what I needed.  The U12 really needs jumpers to allow users to select polarity of the signals on the HDMI I2S interface.


 
  
  
 The following HDMI cables are not molded and may gain access to the wires for modification:
  
 http://world.taobao.com/item/45787880289.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.NoAvJn#detail
  
 http://world.taobao.com/item/36461990334.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.NoAvJn#detail
  
 http://world.taobao.com/item/45505001852.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.NoAvJn#detail
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## bimmer100

dacladder said:


> I can't answer for the NFB-28 as I have no experience.  But if it uses Kingwa's HMDI receiver board then may have issues.  I only really know well the PS Audio standard of PCM over HDMI I2S.


 
 I thought you had a stock Mastery7.
 do you not have the standard Audio-gd stuff?
  
 I think the same stuff will be in the NFB28 as the Master 7 and Master 11
 for hdmi. If I send a photo, would that help?
  
 It sounds to me if your master 7 isn't factory then It's likely i'm wasting my time with this Gustard U12.
 if your master 11 is factory, maybe i'm not. 
 I primarily 99% will use master 11 with u12 if so...


----------



## MINORISUKE

hgpsemaj said:


> The following HDMI cables are not molded and may gain access to the wires for modification:
> 
> http://world.taobao.com/item/45787880289.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.NoAvJn#detail
> 
> ...


 
 Or you use x2 of the following with No.1/3 and 7/9 reversed and the rest connected straight, and x2 normal HDMI short cable.
http://www.delock.de/produkte/S_65168/merkmale.html


----------



## DACLadder

bimmer100 said:


> I thought you had a stock Mastery7.
> do you not have the standard Audio-gd stuff?
> 
> I think the same stuff will be in the NFB28 as the Master 7 and Master 11
> ...


 

 Not really stock but... I designed my own HDMI I2S board but the later AGD version works and is pinned out the same/ functions identically.  I do not own a Master 11 but since it is PCM only should be the same as the Master 7 as far as how its HDMI I2S port works.  But you can say my Master 7 works just like the factory built models.  
  
 I can't comment on the NFB-28 and DSD over the HDMI I2S interface.  That is another mode specific to sigma-delta DACs and doesn't apply to ladder DACs.  But you can also send PCM over HDMI I2S to the NFB-28 and that mode may have the same connection issues as the Master 7 but don't know for sure.   These would be Kingwa questions or perhaps someone familiar can clarify.
  
 If you have no ability or find someone to modify the Gustard U12 HDMI I2S port (or cable) then it will not work correctly and/or give best performance with any of the AGD products as they all use the same HDMI I2S receiver board.  The U12 only works for me with PCM to the Master 7 as it is modified to conform to the PS Audio method,  The U12 though with work great as-is with a Gustard DAC over HDMI I2S as they are both pinned out to be compatible.  You would though have the exact same signal polarity issues going the other way with say using the Off Ramp 5 and a stock Gustard DAC.  There is a lot of confusion in this area as there is no industry standard for I2S over the HDMI hardware and seems every manf. does something differently.  But the PS Audio method does work for a lot of higher end DACs and seems to be favored - at least in N. America.


----------



## bimmer100

dacladder said:


> Not really stock but... I designed my own HDMI I2S board but the later AGD version works and is pinned out the same/ functions identically.  I do not own a Master 11 but since it is PCM only should be the same as the Master 7 as far as how its HDMI I2S port works.  But you can say my Master 7 works just like the factory built models.
> 
> I can't comment on the NFB-28 and DSD over the HDMI I2S interface.  That is another mode specific to sigma-delta DACs and doesn't apply to ladder DACs.  But you can also send PCM over HDMI I2S to the NFB-28 and that mode may have the same connection issues as the Master 7 but don't know for sure.   These would be Kingwa questions or perhaps someone familiar can clarify.
> 
> If you have no ability or find someone to modify the Gustard U12 HDMI I2S port (or cable) then it will not work correctly and/or give best performance with any of the AGD products as they all use the same HDMI I2S receiver board.  The U12 only works for me with PCM to the Master 7 as it is modified to conform to the PS Audio method,  The U12 though with work great as-is with a Gustard DAC over HDMI I2S as they are both pinned out to be compatible.  You would though have the exact same signal polarity issues going the other way with say using the Off Ramp 5 and a stock Gustard DAC.  There is a lot of confusion in this area as there is no industry standard for I2S over the HDMI hardware and seems every manf. does something differently.  But the PS Audio method does work for a lot of higher end DACs and seems to be favored - at least in N. America.



I'm going to make a custom HDMi cable and I just need a little guidance on how to modify the pins.

What should be done to side A for audio-gd and side B for bustard gustard.
Assuming that only one end of the cable needs to be modified? Please advise.
I bought a couple cables that can be opened, also a breakout connector with plastic cover, and basic connectors too. Will make something they hopefully works. 
I'm just trying to avoid modifying the gustard u12. 
I'm "ok" with a soldering iron so should have no problem. I want to be sure I have a visual of what I need to do. I'll be sure to label the cable for custom use and only use it with the master 11. If it sucks, oh well. I will report back. And sell my u12 on here or return to Amazon. Depending on what I can do.


----------



## DACLadder

bimmer100 said:


> I'm going to make a custom HDMi cable and I just need a little guidance on how to modify the pins.
> 
> What should be done to side A for audio-gd and side B for bustard gustard.
> Assuming that only one end of the cable needs to be modified? Please advise.
> ...


 
 There are four main twisted pairs of signals as shown in diagram for the U12 HDMI interface below.   On *one side only *of the cable you reverse the connections at 1 <--> 3 (DATA) and also at 7 <--> 9 (LRCLK) and that is all.  That is connect pin 1 wire to pin 3 connector and pin 3 wire to pin 1 connector, etc.  Easier said than done but shouldn't be that tough if you go slow and use visual aid if required. 
  
 Edit: After modification you can connect either end to the U12.  Makes no difference.  Wireworld HDMI cables have removable headshells.  Expensive but the ultraviolets are pretty good.


----------



## bimmer100

dacladder said:


> There are four main twisted pairs of signals as shown in diagram for the U12 HDMI interface below.   On *one side only* of the cable you reverse the connections at 1 <--> 3 (DATA) and also at 7 <--> 9 (LRCLK) and that is all.  That is connect pin 1 wire to pin 3 connector and pin 3 wire to pin 1 connector, etc.  Easier said than done but shouldn't be that tough if you go slow and use visual aid if required.
> 
> Edit: After modification you can connect either end to the U12.  Makes no difference.  Wireworld HDMI cables have removable headshells.  Expensive but the ultraviolets are pretty good.




Awesome! Thank you for a more clear response. I think that makes sense.


----------



## audiochubb

Hi folks, Just got my gustard u12 today. I ran through the install but i do not see it as an option to select as a playback device. What am I missing here? Side note...it does show up in jriver under audio devices. 
  
 Any help is appreciated


----------



## LancerFIN

What is the HDMI pin layout of U12. Don't want to accidentally choose wrong picture. Also wonder if it is worth asking for custom pin layout for a-gd Master 11 to work with U12.


----------



## DACLadder

lancerfin said:


> What is the HDMI pin layout of U12. Don't want to accidentally choose wrong picture. Also wonder if it is worth asking for custom pin layout for a-gd Master 11 to work with U12.


 
 The U12 HDMI pinout is the diagram directly above in my post (the yellow one). 
  
 Not to confuse you or others but for reference the IC chip swap or cable rewire method is to match the PS Audio like HDMI I2S receiver interfaces such as shown in the link below.  In the diagram on the left side is the cable connector for these receiver boards.  Pins 1 - 3,  7 - 9 are reversed from what the Gustard U12 puts out and, of course, the need to redo something to make it right.   The other two clock signals match OK so no changes needed for them.
  
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/6797612/i2s-lvds2lvttl-rev3-1-pdf-55k


----------



## DACLadder

audiochubb said:


> Hi folks, Just got my gustard u12 today. I ran through the install but i do not see it as an option to select as a playback device. What am I missing here? Side note...it does show up in jriver under audio devices.
> 
> Any help is appreciated


 

 My U12 comes up in Windows -> Playback Devices as "Speakers" and you can see "XMOS XS1-U8...." as well.   I think the driver loader on the supplied CD (2.26) just moved he driver files to my local drive under "Program Files->XMOS\" directory.   You will find an 'setup.exe' lower down in this path.  This is what actually loaded the Windows driver and made things work.  Connect the U12 USB before attempting driver loads. And I'm using WIn 8.1 x64.   Try uninstalling and reinstalling the driver.


----------



## audiochubb

Thank you very much for replying to my post. Unfortunately my gustard does not show up in playback devices even under speakers. You are correct that the driver shows up under program files but it is missing the setup.exe folder.


----------



## abartels

audiochubb said:


> Thank you very much for replying to my post. Unfortunately my gustard does not show up in playback devices even under speakers. You are correct that the driver shows up under program files but it is missing the setup.exe folder.


 
  
 If using Windows 8 / 8.1 be sure to turn off driver signing.
 First uninstall driver and reboot your pc. Connect U12 to usb port and install driver. After installing driver restart pc.
  
 It should be ok then.
  
 Here's explanation on how to turn off driver signing in windows 8 / 8.1
  
http://www.howtogeek.com/167723/how-to-disable-driver-signature-verification-on-64-bit-windows-8.1-so-that-you-can-install-unsigned-drivers/
  
Regards,
  
Alex


----------



## m0reilly

yes driver signing off, or it will not show. remember to restart winders after entering command 
 you should see something like this after you restart, in the lower right hand area of you screen:


----------



## m0reilly

please delete this post...


----------



## DACLadder

audiochubb said:


> Thank you very much for replying to my post. Unfortunately my gustard does not show up in playback devices even under speakers. You are correct that the driver shows up under program files but it is missing the setup.exe folder.


 

 The directory path on my machime is Program Files\ XMOS\USBAudioStDriver_3033...  This is the location where "setup.exe" is found to load the Windows driver.  Driver version 2.26 is the only one I could find that would load up straight away on Win 8.1 as it seemed to be signed properly.  .


----------



## DACLadder

Received a 2nd U12 from a forum member at a good price. Thank you!  I do not seem to have the USB connection issue that plagues my first unit.  Yeah!
  
 After reworking the 2nd unit for PS Audio HDMI I2S (chip method) the sound quality is good on these stock U12s.   Comparable to the Off Ramp 5 but the Off Ramp 5 is a bit more liquid.  I do plan to rework the 2nd unit to change the bulk filter caps and add sockets for the two oscillators.  Crystek oscillators took the first U12 to a new level of SQ and hope the same for the 2nd.  Also plan to try other oscillators as well.  So things are looking up for my U12 experience!


----------



## bimmer100

I've been listening to the Master11 with the U12 today and not seeing a reason to keep it. As the sound quality so similar to being literally the same. I've applied a reverse channel filter in Jriver to compensate for the channel reversal. Sounds basically the same now. I should be getting the Amanero Combo 384 on wednesday. And that should be an improvement above the Via USB32.
 I don't hear an improvement with the Gustard U12 as much as I want to hear something. If anything I'm going to side on the loss of performance side. 
 I didn't have any issues installing it with windows 8.1
 everything works great. I'm using Jriver, reversed L and R channels, and chose HDMI streaming for bitperfect. I switch back to normal settings when going back to Via KS Direct [ASIO] for my M11.
  
 Worth a shot, but not an improvement IMHO. Likely with some of DACLadders personal tweaks it would be something special.  I have only tested for about 4 hours now, but played all my favorite common songs I know very well. There is a very very very small difference. 
  
 I would consider paying to have these mods done just out of curiosity. And hold nobody responsible if it was damaged.  
  
 but that likely won't happen. I should just return the unit.


----------



## genclaymore

I may end up doing the same when ever I get the Gustard X12 and see if the U12 I have that I bought modded would make any difference to my ears in compare to the usb of the X12. Tho I might keep it and use it any way even if their a small difference to my ears, since I also have a Yamaha RX-V367 with Sony SS-B1000 speakers that I use for desktop and I much rather connect the Coax from the U12 into the receiver since the I would be using the I2S from the U12 into the X12 any way. That way i wont have to worry with issues from my onboard audio or my GTX 970 HDMi audio into my receiver.
  
 I wonder have any one tried plugging the I2S from the U12 into a home audio receiver HDMi, I doubt it would work and may damage something of course I wont try it and find out and burn something out if it doesn't work but I kind of curious Unless the pin layout  on the U12 for the I2S is not the same pinout standard for HDMI.


----------



## MINORISUKE

bimmer100 said:


> I've been listening to the Master11 with the U12 today and not seeing a reason to keep it. As the sound quality so similar to being literally the same. I've applied a reverse channel filter in Jriver to compensate for the channel reversal. Sounds basically the same now. I should be getting the Amanero Combo 384 on wednesday. And that should be an improvement above the Via USB32.
> I don't hear an improvement with the Gustard U12 as much as I want to hear something. If anything I'm going to side on the loss of performance side.
> I didn't have any issues installing it with windows 8.1
> everything works great. I'm using Jriver, reversed L and R channels, and chose HDMI streaming for bitperfect. I switch back to normal settings when going back to Via KS Direct [ASIO] for my M11.
> ...


 
 As is well known, U12 needs burn-in for 100 hours.  Some are disapointed in the first few hours and sell their unit before experiencing its real sound.
 As for JRMC output, I do not think "HDMI streaming" is correct, as the HDMI connector of U12 has nothing to do with HDMI standards (see my previous post).  I use either [ASIO] or [Kernel Streaming].


----------



## bimmer100

I can't see burn in improving the sound to any significant amount. The Via USB32 in the Master11 already is very very good. It's like splitting hairs. It's likely the U12 is better than many other USB inputs for other dacs. I'm using a schiit wyrd inline with the Via USB32 as well. 

 I tried every setting to get the best sound. I was using ASIO  and Kernel Streaming.
  
 the bit perfect option of streaming "none" or "HDMI" did NOTHING for the sound. likely it was related to DSD. The Master 11 only accepts PCM signal anyways. 

 The sound was very good when I used JRiver to swap L/R channels. This was the only fair way to compare.  
  
 But 170bucks + 70 dollar HDMI cable. lets see... Nope. splitting hairs here.
  
 I don't know if you're using Jriver? 
  
 Anyhoo, the Gustard U12 only looks neat, and I can't justify something for pure looks. It was worth giving it a shot. Like I said, the Amanero Combo 384 is coming on Wednesday. I can expect a small improvement with that. Many consider it the best USB interface in the world.


----------



## abartels

bimmer100 said:


> I can't see burn in improving the sound to any significant amount. The Via USB32 in the Master11 already is very very good. It's like splitting hairs. It's likely the U12 is better than many other USB inputs for other dacs. I'm using a schiit wyrd inline with the Via USB32 as well.
> 
> I tried every setting to get the best sound. I was using ASIO  and Kernel Streaming.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If you can't see burn-in time will improve sq significantly, then I suppose it's better to buy some real cheap equipment since it looks like you can't hear any differences between them, sorry for saying this,,,,,
  
 It's not for fun that the HE-series from Audio-GD have had a burn-in time close to 500hours, please ask Qinghua (Kingwa) what he thinks about burn-in time
 for all the Audio-Gd stuff, and audio equipment in general.
  
 I'm not saying U12 is the best digital audio interface on the market, but when it had it's burn-in time between 100 to 150 hours, it will definitely sound much opener and smoother. And, to compare XMOS device with CM6631A device, sq wise, thats like comparing apples with pears.
  
 In my experience most audio equipment needs about 150 hours brurn-in time to sound near 100%. Some equipment needs a much longer burn-in time to do so.
  
 Just let it play for one week continuously, listen again, and give us your verdict, you would be surprised!!
  
 About Amanero, it's a good digital interface, for sure. But, like EVERY audio module, it will sound at best if it has several seperated power rails to feed it's stages, and I much doubt if Amanero interface, built-in at M11, will be provided with those,,,,,,,,,
  
*About JRiver and DSP capabilities:*
  
 I am using JRiver 20 with *JPlay 6.2* and *AudioPhile Optimizer 1.30* (*1.40 coming soo*n 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) on Server 2012 in DualPC configuration (KS-Ultimate-700Hz-0.01s)
 ControlPC is not the fastest machine on earth, but fully optimized for audio, hardware and software wise.
  
 When using DSP capabilities with Jriver, I notice SQ degrading, so, be aware with this kind of features. At least don't use them if you dont have a fat i5 or i7 equipped machine.
  
  
 Hope you will give your equipment time to settle in, because that's what it really needs.
  
 Comparing equipment without having it's burn-in time is like listening to a STAX SR-009 Electrostatic headphone ($5000+) with ear wimps in your ears.
  
  
 Just my 2 cents,,
  
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I can't see burn in improving the sound to any significant amount. The Via USB32 in the Master11 already is very very good. It's like splitting hairs. It's likely the U12 is better than many other USB inputs for other dacs. I'm using a schiit wyrd inline with the Via USB32 as well.
> 
> I tried every setting to get the best sound. I was using ASIO  and Kernel Streaming.
> 
> ...


 

 Try the MX-U8 - it's a significant improvement over the U12.  A bit finicky - but the SQ is the best I have yet hear after going through 6-7 USB bridges.  Still want to hear the Hydra Z.  What the MX-U8 does - is bring out greater detail while still maintaining musicality.  The incisive quality to the sound - more realistic dynamics - wider, deeper and more holographic sound staging.  I think this unit is really pushing the envelope of  digital music sound quality (I have a very nice analog rig I use as a reference).  I'm using two right now in three seperate systems (one system it drives a near sota DAC (APL babyNWO) to both speaker and HP amps).


----------



## hgpsemaj

From my experience, 'burn-in' would make it sound better. 
  
 From electronic point of view, all these capacitors and oscillators need 'burn-in' time to bring the device to its peak.
  
  
  
  
 Regards,
  
  
 Riemann


----------



## DACLadder

bimmer100 said:


> the bit perfect option of streaming "none" or "HDMI" did NOTHING for the sound. likely it was related to DSD. The Master 11 only accepts PCM signal anyways.


 
 HDMI here is true HDMI data format and not supported over "HDMI" I2S so not surprised it does nothing.  I found WASAPI works well on my setup. 
  
 Interesting, and will look for others to confirm about the Master 11.  Of course my experience is with the Master 7 which responds to the amount of jitter on its inputs.  You would think the Master 11 would be similar since it appears the DSP boards are the same between the two.  I haven't listened to USB32 in several years but it steadily improved with firmware released over the years. 
  
 And the U12 does need burn in.  Generic sounding when cold.  The soundstage gets more 3D as it warms.  But again the Master 7 is sensitive to source jitter.   Other DACs may react differently.


----------



## abartels

I asked AudioByte Hydra-Z supplier in The Netherlands if I could borrow one for comparing with my own digital interface,
 with in mind to buy it if it outperforms my own device.
  
 No reaction (since 11 days) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Today I did send them a second email, hope the will provide me with an answer soon
  
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## bimmer100

After quite a few emails sent to Kingwa I'm having no luck in having an HDMi pin out being made that will work with the u12. Either there is a translation problem or he won't do it. I've sent at least 5 emails asking. Its frustrating as I have the u12 boxed up and ready to ship back. But have been waiting to see if Kingwa would make me a custom HDMi kit that has the proper pin layout. It seems he isn't interested in doing that. Something sbout not being reliable or possible life expectancy. I dunno; I will have my Chinese friend contact him. Apparently I can't write in clear way to ask for what I want. I will give it one more day before this u12 gets shipped back. I'm beyond frustrated right now.
Otherwise I like audio-gd.


----------



## DACLadder

bimmer100 said:


> After quite a few emails sent to Kingwa I'm having no luck in having an HDMi pin out being made that will work with the u12. Either there is a translation problem or he won't do it. I've sent at least 5 emails asking. Its frustrating as I have the u12 boxed up and ready to ship back. But have been waiting to see if Kingwa would make me a custom HDMi kit that has the proper pin layout. It seems he isn't interested in doing that. Something sbout not being reliable or possible life expectancy. I dunno; I will have my Chinese friend contact him. Apparently I can't write in clear way to ask for what I want. I will give it one more day before this u12 gets shipped back. I'm beyond frustrated right now.
> Otherwise I like audio-gd.


 

 I will "red line" the schematic to show the chip change on the HDMI I2S receiver board to swap in SN65LVDS390 plus the lifted pin rework wire to enable its output.  My SW tools are at work so give me a day to get it done.


----------



## DACLadder

dacladder said:


> I will "red line" the schematic to show the chip change on the HDMI I2S receiver board to swap in SN65LVDS390 plus the lifted pin rework wire to enable its output.  My SW tools are at work so give me a day to get it done.


 

 No sorry this method on the HDMI receiver does not work.  A complimentary chip change here (LVDS390) will flip the phase of all four signals when used with the Gustard U12.   The chip change on the U12 and yet to be proven cable pin swaps work though.


----------



## m0reilly

as an aside, anyone upgrade/fresh install windows 10 pro final (out today) and notice any change in audio integrity?


----------



## bimmer100

I'm not sure what HDMI board I have, the chip seems to have had the writing removed intentionally?
  
 I would like to try  the gustard U12.
  
 As i've heard a notable increase of sound quality with the recent install of a Amanero Combo 384 tonight. 
  
 It would be great to compare now. I may take it out of the box and give it another try to see if it's all in my head.


----------



## hgpsemaj

It looks like the one on the left,


----------



## Benny-x

genclaymore said:


> I wonder have any one tried plugging the I2S from the U12 into a home audio receiver HDMi, I doubt it would work and may damage something of course I wont try it and find out and burn something out if it doesn't work but I kind of curious Unless the pin layout  on the U12 for the I2S is not the same pinout standard for HDMI.


 
 The HDMI-I2s signal just uses the HDMI cable and connector, it has nothing to do with the HDMI format used in A/V receivers or on PCs for monitors or sound.
  
 A better name for HDMI-I2s is "Differential I2s" because it's sending/receiving a balanced ( - & + pairs)signal, whereas the RJ-45-I2s format is like "Single-ended I2s". So very similarly, you can't plug an RJ-45-I2s cable into the ethernet port on your PC and expect to get internet or data traffic, you can't plug an HDMI-I2s cable into your PC or A/V receiver and expect to get anything compatible there. 
  
 Given the total difference in what the cable carries and what's being output, I'd wonder if something would get fried or damaged on either end? Anyway, it won't do what you want.


----------



## abartels

abartels said:


> I asked AudioByte Hydra-Z supplier in The Netherlands if I could borrow one for comparing with my own digital interface,
> with in mind to buy it if it outperforms my own device.
> 
> No reaction (since 11 days)
> ...


 
  
 Good news, got an email yesterday that Hydra-Z is on it's way to distributor in The Netherlands.
 When it arrives I get an email to make an apointment for listening session.
 Not sure if I can listen to it at my home, or at distributors place.
  
 Either way, my MX-U8 will be compared with Hydra-Z 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Cheers  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## motberg

Good luck with that Alex!
 I would be interested also to learn if the Hydra-Z is compatible with JPlay's various engines and settings.. 
  
 Saludos,
 Tom


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Good news, got an email yesterday that Hydra-Z is on it's way to distributor in The Netherlands.
> When it arrives I get an email to make an apointment for listening session.
> Not sure if I can listen to it at my home, or at distributors place.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice!


----------



## stuartmc

It's great to see all the new additions to the USB-DDC field. I must say that after several months the Tanly continues to impress -- nary a hiccup and superb sound quality. As I mentioned before, it beats the U12 in most every musical parameter you might care to analyze. Nevertheless, I am still a U12 fan. At its price point, it is ridiculously good with a very smooth, musical presentation. I also own the Gustard X12 Dac and the H10 amplifier, so I can confidently say that Gustard has a lock on the price/performance market. 

I just received the very first review unit of the new Gustard X20 DAC and I'm thinking that the trend continues. This thing is built like a tank with design and parts quality equivalent to flagship DACs costing more than twice the price. It is just out of the box and breaking in now, so it will be a while before I can render an opinion on the sound quality.


----------



## h1f1add1cted

Hi guys,
  
 is the U12 fully usable under Linux or only Windows with the specific AISO driver? I would really like to use this for my Daphile ( www.daphile.com ) music server. Thanks!


----------



## MINORISUKE

stuartmc said:


> .....
> I just received the very first review unit of the new Gustard X20 DAC


 
 I am curious whether DAC-X20 HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD input works correctly in terms of DSD playback (i.e., without channel swap).
 If you have U12 and DSD playback is correct, this means channel swap is happening in DAC-X20 just like DAC-X12, as U12 has definitely DSD channel swap issue.


----------



## GioF71

h1f1add1cted said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> is the U12 fully usable under Linux or only Windows with the specific AISO driver? I would really like to use this for my Daphile ( www.daphile.com ) music server. Thanks!




Hello, the u12 is fully compatible with Linux.
I am using it with mpd + upmpdcli on ubuntu server


----------



## GioF71

benny-x said:


> The HDMI-I2s signal just uses the HDMI cable and connector, it has nothing to do with the HDMI format used in A/V receivers or on PCs for monitors or sound.
> 
> A better name for HDMI-I2s is "Differential I2s" because it's sending/receiving a balanced ( - & + pairs)signal, whereas the RJ-45-I2s format is like "Single-ended I2s". So very similarly, you can't plug an RJ-45-I2s cable into the ethernet port on your PC and expect to get internet or data traffic, you can't plug an HDMI-I2s cable into your PC or A/V receiver and expect to get anything compatible there.
> 
> Given the total difference in what the cable carries and what's being output, I'd wonder if something would get fried or damaged on either end? Anyway, it won't do what you want.




Who do you say this?
I am connecting my gustard u12 to the x12 via a regular hdmi from a TV set.
Later I replaced that cable with a shorter and presumably better hdmi cable.
Both work just fine.


----------



## jodokus

I received the Elfidelity AXF-100 usb card and connected it to the Seasonic power supply in my HTPC. The thing is that the Gustard keeps turning off when I shutdown or hibernate. There is no wake on usb setting in the bios and I checked al the power settings in Windows 8.1. Any ideas how to keep the Gustard powered on?


----------



## GioF71

So your U12 does not turn on when you start your pc after a shutdown?


----------



## bimmer100

jodokus said:


> I received the Elfidelity AXF-100 usb card and connected it to the Seasonic power supply in my HTPC. The thing is that the Gustard keeps turning off when I shutdown or hibernate. There is no wake on usb setting in the bios and I checked al the power settings in Windows 8.1. Any ideas how to keep the Gustard powered on?



Maybe buy a teradak U9 linear power supply and keep the USB card active with the optional USB power cord ? Or maybe it won't work if the onboard USB isn't getting power. I thought all those settings were windows settings.
I would think those USB ports that it uses would be able to be set to wake on USB through windows. At least mine does.
I'm not familiar with the gustard u12 even though I own it. (Recent purchase)
Does it run with USB power ? Or does it have its own power supply? I will be able to test it more once I get it back from having some modifications done 
Personally I never power down anything in most cases unless I'll be gone from home for extended periods of time.


----------



## jodokus

It turns on perfectly, I just want to keep it on all the time... It has it's own power supply, but uses the usb power to turn on or off. When I used the usb on the motherboard it stayed on, but with the axf-100 not anymore (it is connected to the Seasonic directly).


----------



## h1f1add1cted

giof71 said:


> Hello, the u12 is fully compatible with Linux.
> I am using it with mpd + upmpdcli on ubuntu server


 

 Great! Thanks, only sad story no way to buy it in EU  I only found it on Ebay or Aliexpress, I hope it doesn't take ages to deliver to Germany.


----------



## GioF71

h1f1add1cted said:


> Great! Thanks, only sad story no way to buy it in EU  I only found it on Ebay or Aliexpress, I hope it doesn't take ages to deliver to Germany.


 
  
 Hello, I am from italy. I bought my gustard stack on Kidult Online.
 Quite a smooth transaction. It took some time because they have a warehouse in UK but I think items still come from china after orders.
 If you choose shipping from UK, you do not have to pay custom fees. Of course this service comes at a higher price. Not too much considering it would have been impossible for me to receive the items at the office if there might have been the inconvienience to pay custom fees.
  
 Hope this helps.


----------



## GioF71

jodokus said:


> It turns on perfectly, I just want to keep it on all the time... It has it's own power supply, but uses the usb power to turn on or off. When I used the usb on the motherboard it stayed on, but with the axf-100 not anymore (it is connected to the Seasonic directly).


 
  
 I am using the Schiit Wyrd so the U12 turns on when I (obviously manually) turn on the Wyrd itself.
 A powered hub (be careful it has some good linear psu) or, in alternative, a battery power pack plus a true 'Y' usb cable should do the trick for you.


----------



## jodokus

Will this one work as well?

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=121287938321&globalID=EBAY-NL


----------



## jodokus

giof71 said:


> I am using the Schiit Wyrd so the U12 turns on when I (obviously manually) turn on the Wyrd itself.
> A powered hub (be careful it has some good linear psu) or, in alternative, a battery power pack plus a true 'Y' usb cable should do the trick for you.




As a reaction to this!


----------



## MINORISUKE

h1f1add1cted said:


> Great! Thanks, only sad story no way to buy it in EU  I only found it on Ebay or Aliexpress, I hope it doesn't take ages to deliver to Germany.


 
 I​ live in Germany and ordered U12 and other itmes from Shenzhen Audio four times in the past.  It took about two to three weeks.


----------



## GioF71

I can't see what connectors are on the back... maybe cause I'm using a cell phone?
Will try on pc in the afternoon


----------



## GioF71

minorisuke said:


> I​ live in Germany and ordered U12 and other itmes from Shenzhen Audio four times in the past.  It took about two to three weeks.




Hello.
Did you have custom fees to pay?
Thanks!


----------



## MINORISUKE

giof71 said:


> Hello.
> Did you have custom fees to pay?
> Thanks!


 
 I do not want to mention it.  Please try by yourself.


----------



## DACLadder

Users of HDMI I2S you should experiment with HDMI cables.  Makes a difference with Master 7 DAC.  Have been using good quality but generic cables of 1.5m and 0.5m.  I finally moved the U12 closer to the Master 7 so I could use my Wireworld Siiver Starlight 7 0.3m length and makes a noticeable difference with smoother highs.  Expensive cable but the Wireworld Starlight 5.2 0.3m sounds almost good as well.  The Wirreworld Ultraviolet 5.2 0.3m is OK but the other two sound better.  These Wireworld cables were the shortest I could find at about 1 ft in length.  May not work for all installations..


----------



## Benny-x

giof71 said:


> Who do you say this?
> I am connecting my gustard u12 to the x12 via a regular hdmi from a TV set.
> Later I replaced that cable with a shorter and presumably better hdmi cable.
> Both work just fine.


 
  
 Though I will agree that "HDMI-I2s cable" -could- be misconstrued, I though my post and its reference to the one I was answering should have told you what I was talking about.
  
 So, HDMI-I2s does use a normal HDMI cable and a normal HDMI connector. No debate there. I also use a normal, TV HDMI cable for my U12. Works fine.
  
 What I was saying was the I2s signal is not an HDMI signal. I was answering the other user's post about trying his Gustard U12 HDMI-I2s out->A/V Receiver HDMI-in. This totally wouldn't work because the 2 signals are totally different. The connector and cable are the same type, but the signal is not, and that could possibly cause some damage.
  
 Make sense?


----------



## GioF71

benny-x said:


> Though I will agree that "HDMI-I2s cable" -could- be misconstrued, I though my post and its reference to the one I was answering should have told you what I was talking about.
> 
> So, HDMI-I2s does use a normal HDMI cable and a normal HDMI connector. No debate there. I also use a normal, TV HDMI cable for my U12. Works fine.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes. I re-read your post and it totally makes sense.
 I did not really understand it on the first read, sorry.


----------



## Benny-x

giof71 said:


> Yes. I re-read your post and it totally makes sense.
> I did not really understand it on the first read, sorry.


 
 All good. The funny part I find is the guy who's post I was answering never came back. I wondered how his "experiment" turned out.
  
 I'd like to give DACladder's chip swap a try to get the polarity and phase back in order. Though I counter it by swapping the phase on my DAC and just plugging the cables into the opposite speaker inputs, I'd still like to have a PS-Audio compliant HDMI-I2s convertor. Some day in 6 months from now, maybe...
  
 I really don't get what Gustard's angle is on mixing that, though. By doing so it only makes there components lesss compatible with other and makes people less likely to buy them :-/


----------



## genclaymore

Nah I wasn't gonna actually plug U12 into my receiver to see, I was curious tho I kind of figure that the U12 Hdmi wasn't the standard hdmi pin layout. I thought some one may had actually tried it that's why i really asked. Tho of course I wouldn't had used it if it was compatibility as that would be a waste of the U12.


----------



## Barbapappa

Just to share for anybody considering switching to the new windows. The (standard V.2.23.0) driver works fine on windows 10.


----------



## bimmer100

barbapappa said:


> Just to share for anybody considering switching to the new windows. The (standard V.2.23.0) driver works fine on windows 10.




Good to know! Thanks for the heads up!


----------



## Triplefun

I have just received my new shiny silver U12. It came with the 2.26.0 drivers which loaded on Windows 10 with no issues - did not have to go into unsigned mode. I have configured JRiver for 2xDSD Dop output and d128 displays on the U12 as expected. However I am not getting any signal (sound) from the SPDIF and Optical outputs? Would this be a faulty device or am I missing something?


----------



## m0reilly

i think you will only get those signals through the i2s.


----------



## Triplefun

thanks for the response. So it only does signal pass through? I just tried normal analogue output and still no sound.
 Now I've got it to work - need to match the receiver settings. Thinks for the insight.


----------



## GioF71

triplefun said:


> I have just received my new shiny silver U12. It came with the 2.26.0 drivers which loaded on Windows 10 with no issues - did not have to go into unsigned mode. I have configured JRiver for 2xDSD Dop output and d128 displays on the U12 as expected. However I am not getting any signal (sound) from the SPDIF and Optical outputs? Would this be a faulty device or am I missing something?




 Spdif outputs support only pcm.
You have to connect the u12 to your dac with a i2s cable (a hdmi cable).
The dsd streams only flow through i2s as m0reilly said.


----------



## MINORISUKE

giof71 said:


> Spdif outputs support only pcm.
> You have to connect the u12 to your dac with a i2s cable (a hdmi cable).
> The dsd streams only flow through i2s as m0reilly said.


 
 I have read somewhere that U12 S/PDIF supports DSD64 DoP as well.
 As I do not have a DAC that accepts DSD64 DoP through S/PDIF input, I cannot confirm this.
 Can anybody check with DAC-X12/X20?  I am quite sure these Gustard DACs accept DSD64 DoP from S/PDIF input.
 DSD128 DoP is anyway not supported, as it needs 354.8kHz PCM which is out of S/PDIF scope.


----------



## GioF71

minorisuke said:


> I have read somewhere that U12 S/PDIF supports DSD64 DoP as well.
> As I do not have a DAC that accepts DSD64 DoP through S/PDIF input, I cannot confirm this.
> Can anybody check with DAC-X12/X20?  I am quite sure these Gustard DACs accept DSD64 DoP from S/PDIF input.
> DSD128 DoP is anyway not supported, as it needs 354.8kHz PCM which is out of S/PDIF scope.


 
  
 Hello Minorisuke, this is definitely true! Still, DoP is PCM. It's a trick to let dsd flow over PCM packets.
 And, one can also take advantage of this feature to play dsd on players/streamers which do not support DSD natively. For example, the are reports of getting the Logitech SqueezeBox to play dsd using FLAC files containing DoP... 
  
 As you say, not all dacs which support DoP do necessarily support DoP on Coaxial output.
 Most are reported to support DoP over USB os I2S.


----------



## Sonic Defender

Has anybody tried to install the driver for the MX-U8 under Windows ten? I just realized that my new Windows 10 machine due today may actually not groove to the drivers. Any input thoughts are welcome. Cheers.


----------



## m0reilly

you may have to set windows 10 to 'test mode' to allow installation.
  
 https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff553484%28v=vs.85%29.aspx


----------



## Sonic Defender

m0reilly said:


> you may have to set windows 10 to 'test mode' to allow installation.
> 
> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff553484%28v=vs.85%29.aspx


 

 Thanks for the link, cheers.


----------



## bimmer100

Does the u12 use USB inline power? Or only the USB signal? I'm wondering if it could benefit from a linear power source to the USB.maybe a dumb question. But I'm fairly new to this u12. Just got my modded u12 done and letting it burn in for 5 days first.


----------



## Benny-x

bimmer100 said:


> Does the u12 use USB inline power? Or only the USB signal? I'm wondering if it could benefit from a linear power source to the USB.maybe a dumb question. But I'm fairly new to this u12. Just got my modded u12 done and letting it burn in for 5 days first.


 
 It only uses the USB 5V to switch a relay inside the U12, letting it know it's connected. Apparently a few people have looked into this and that's the only function of the 5V rail here. I however do power my U12 with an iFi iUSBPower and find it beneficial. I bet it's not as beneficial as swapping the power caps, clocks, or ripping out the built in toroidal though...


----------



## DACLadder

benny-x said:


> It only uses the USB 5V to switch a relay inside the U12, letting it know it's connected. Apparently a few people have looked into this and that's the only function of the 5V rail here. I however do power my U12 with an iFi iUSBPower and find it beneficial. I bet it's not as beneficial as swapping the power caps, clocks, or ripping out the built in toroidal though...


 

 Upon inspection USB +5V is also connected to the XMOS chip USB_VBUS pin.  Besides the relay this voltage doesn't really power anything as the XMOS  just uses it to detect presence of USB cable connection.  But it is connected to the chip.  I also use a linear +5V supply to power USB to great advantage of not only the U12 but other USB sources as well.


----------



## Benny-x

dacladder said:


> Upon inspection USB +5V is also connected to the XMOS chip USB_VBUS pin.  Besides the relay this voltage doesn't really power anything as the XMOS  just uses it to detect presence of USB cable connection.  But it is connected to the chip.  I also use a linear +5V supply to power USB to great advantage of not only the U12 but other USB sources as well.


 
 Interesting news. That makes a bit more sense why using mine with my iUSBPower sounds better. I also wondered about that virtual ground function on the iUSBPower. I played around with it a bit when I got the thing, thought it was possible that I heard a difference and just left it to whichever setting. Couldn't really say though. Any of you guys ever use the iUSBPower and actually prefer one ground setting over the other?


----------



## DACLadder

Windows 10 upgrade from Windows 8.1 x64 went fairly smooth for me.   I had to reload JRiver MC 20 as I got a pop-up stating it was installed on another operating system.  Probably a security issue but the reinstall found the old key and functions OK.  Foobar2000 is OK after telling security a Foobar component wasn't a security threat.  Audio seems to sound the same as my WIndows 8.1 experience. 
  
 I did not need to reload any drivers (2.26) for the U12.   As a matter of fact my U12 unit #1 with the flakey USB connection hasn't dropped out all day.  I've gone from Foobar, JR MC, Web, to games and the U12 has hung in all day.  So the Windows 10 upgrade wasn't that big a deal from Win 8.1.


----------



## jjacq

Sorry for being a noob but I have an old DAC that's 20 bit and only takes 48kHz so I was wondering what this DAC can do for me. Will this allow me to play 24bit music and also DSD tracks or does my DAC have to have something else to allow me to do both? The DAC is an ADCOM GDA700 by the way

Thanks.


----------



## m0reilly

the u12 will add its inherent enhancements (saber sharp/wide soundstage) to your existing dac. in fact, this is what it can do best, and at its price point, it is definitely  worth a go. etched detail retrieval/wide as can be stage is its signature. no native dsd (your existing dac will be the limit here), and dop on your dac's inputs...meh, but the effect overall could be quite desirable...


----------



## DACLadder

For the past 6 months since I got my new computer I have been wondering why Foobar2000 WASAPI had perceived lower volume that JRiver MC.  Seems Foobar2000 defaults to "ReplayGain" which is a constant loudness mode squashing dynamic range for uniform program level.  
  
 To turn this feature OFF in Foobar go the Preferences (Ctrl-P) -> Playback  and under the _Processing_ tab select "*none"* (default is  "apply gain"). .  Gain now the same as J River MC.
  

  
  ​ ​


----------



## Sonic Defender

jjacq said:


> Sorry for being a noob but I have an old DAC that's 20 bit and only takes 48kHz so I was wondering what this DAC can do for me. Will this allow me to play 24bit music and also DSD tracks or does my DAC have to have something else to allow me to do both? The DAC is an ADCOM GDA700 by the way
> 
> Thanks.


 

 The U12 is not a DAC, its a USB converter which allows a user to take the USB coming from the computer and output via  different interface such as AES to the DAC. Unless I am way off, there is zero DAC functionality.


----------



## jjacq

sonic defender said:


> The U12 is not a DAC, its a USB converter which allows a user to take the USB coming from the computer and output via  different interface such as AES to the DAC. Unless I am way off, there is zero DAC functionality.




Sorry I meant to say USB interface. I know it's not a DAC, I was gonna use this in conjunction to my current DAC and was wondering what sonic advantages it would bring, that is if any, and how. I would think it should be transparent but apparently not?


----------



## m0reilly

i'd try it, as your dac has been quite popular over the years. it will be a sort of inexpensive 'refresh'. i will have one for sale shortly. if still interested, please pm me re unit. i went with a hydra z, but am using it with an nos ladder dac, as these latest usb bridges can bring some clarity/varied tonality that may have not been available when your adcom was in its prime.


----------



## bimmer100

dacladder said:


> For the past 6 months since I got my new computer I have been wondering why Foobar2000 WASAPI had perceived lower volume that JRiver MC.  Seems Foobar2000 defaults to "ReplayGain" which is a constant loudness mode squashing dynamic range for uniform program level.
> 
> To turn this feature OFF in Foobar go the Preferences (Ctrl-P) -> Playback  and under the _Processing_ tab select "*none"* (default is  "apply gain"). .  Gain now the same as J River MC.
> 
> ...


 
 Yea, I had this same issue with foobar. I never could get my headphones up to a decent volume level for certain classical music. But I moved up to jriver and haven't really used foobar much since then. Replay gain messes stuff up for sure.


----------



## DACLadder

My U12 unit #1 still displays the issue where USB will drop out and no sound output.  The front panel displays " - - - -" in this mode.  Requires a power cycle and computer restart to get going again.   It takes hours for this to happen and has done this since day one.  I reworked U12 unit #2 this past weekend and it has stayed up and running for 2 days straight.  Fingers crossed.
  
 I like the U12 but there is no support for the product if it fails.  But between the two U12s and mods I have about $400 invested and still fairly cheap for good USB performance.  I'll do another comparison with the Off Ramp 5 after #2 burns in for a while.


----------



## Sonic Defender

jjacq said:


> Sorry I meant to say USB interface. I know it's not a DAC, I was gonna use this in conjunction to my current DAC and was wondering what sonic advantages it would bring, that is if any, and how. I would think it should be transparent but apparently not?


 

 No worries brother. I guess how effective the U12 will be depends on your existing DAC. Does it have USB input already? If so, does it sound good to you and perform well eg, no drop outs, no noise etc. I went with the Melodius MX-U8 myself opting to go AES into my DAC, but while it sounds excellent, I can't tell if it sounds better. That alone suggests to me that if there are sound quality improvements with a converter, they are quite minor (at least in my case).
  
 Try the MX-U8 if you can afford to gamble on either units. Now if money is tight for you and your current setup is fine, consider skipping the converter altogether. In my case, the money for the U8 wasn't significant and I simply wanted to try this out of curiosity. Sounds better? Really can't say so with any certainty myself.


----------



## abartels

Hi All,
  
 FYI:
  
 Tomorrow Hydra-Z will be shipped to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 It's a new device so it needs burn-in time.
  
  
  
 I'll keep you guys posted 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  
 Regards,
 Alex


----------



## bimmer100

Still waiting for the U12 to burn in. So far so good. Will leave my opinion unknown for now.
  
 I've got some new upgrades on the way that I hope will help overall and will report soon.
  
 I will have linear power for everything soon.
  
 but even now the U12 is being powered with usb linear power. but will have a A/C regenerator and will have it fully powered with super clean power.
 PS Audio PS300 multiwave 2.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> For the past 6 months since I got my new computer I have been wondering why Foobar2000 WASAPI had perceived lower volume that JRiver MC.  Seems Foobar2000 defaults to "ReplayGain" which is a constant loudness mode squashing dynamic range for uniform program level.
> 
> To turn this feature OFF in Foobar go the Preferences (Ctrl-P) -> Playback  and under the _Processing_ tab select "*none"* (default is  "apply gain"). .  Gain now the same as J River MC.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice Tip -Thanks!  I'm liking WASAPI in Win 7 pro and the M2TEch 3.0 Thesycon drivers.  Seems a bit more dynamic then the Melodious KS or Oppo ASIO


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi All,
> 
> FYI:
> 
> ...


 

 Oh Yeah!  Free trail?  Did you get the ZPM as well?


----------



## rb2013

A new player on the block!  Breeze audio. Looks very good - may give one a try.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/XMOS-USB-Digital-Interface-0-1PPM-DSD-PCM-Digital-Audio-Hifi-System-32B-384khz/271948361421?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Dfa15fbfbb1f1401688d874e9496a8bf9%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D1116463


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Oh Yeah!  Free trail?  Did you get the ZPM as well?




Hi Bob, 

I did send AudioByte manufacturer an email, Dutch importer " knooppuntaudio.nl " responded in a timely fashion and informed me the device was on its way to him. He told me he would send me an email when device arrived. Yesterday he told me device arrived and only thing he asked was my address  

Just received track and trace number! 

Best service ever!!!

Didn't ask him if it was including psu, but I will see tomorrow  

If it's without psu, I will test it with 15600mAh lion package. 



To be continued  

Regards, 


Alex


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> I did send AudioByte manufacturer an email, Dutch importer " knooppuntaudio.nl " responded in a timely fashion and informed me the device was on its way to him. He told me he would send me an email when device arrived. Yesterday he told me device arrived and only thing he asked was my address
> 
> ...


 

 Looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## rb2013

Looking at this Breeze a little closer is this a swappable opamp?
  


 Looks like it - but what function?  If not an opamp anyone have a clue on what it is.  Have not seen one like it before in these USB bridges.  I like the Muratas


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> Looking at this Breeze a little closer is this a swappable opamp?
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it - but what function?  If not an opamp anyone have a clue on what it is.  Have not seen one like it before in these USB bridges.  I like the Muratas


 
 Not sure but it is not an opamp.  The maker is ST Micro and they do not sell opamps.   It could be a small microcontroller or serial EEPROM.  The marking on the chip is of no help.  Besides the XMOS U8 and power related devices this is the only other IC in the design. 
  
 Chassis GND is not connected on the AC input.
  
 This is about as simple a design as it gets.  A plus is it appears each of the three oscillators have their own linear power regulator.   Looks like the same Vanguard TXCOs oscillators that appear in many of these Far East designs of late.  This time they are gold plated but still the same 0.1ppm spec listed on all of them .   Maybe the "gold" versions are cherry picked best of the lot.   You can buy them all day long on Ebay for about $25 each. 
  
 But proof is in how it sounds and functions...


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> Not sure but it is not an opamp.  The maker is ST Micro and they do not sell opamps.   It could be a small microcontroller or serial EEPROM.  The marking on the chip is of no help.  Besides the XMOS U8 and power related devices this is the only other IC in the design.
> 
> Chassis GND is not connected on the AC input.
> 
> ...


 

 Good news on the ground.  Yes the clocks are the same as in the MX-U8.  Looks like an additional set of PS 'lytic caps - added to the four like on the MX-U8.  Case looks tall - so could accommodate replacement larger caps.  I like that the spdif RCA is hard wired vs board mounted.  It's my input for the two dacs I'm running, as neither has hdmi inputs.  I would replace that brass output - with a pure tellurium-copper one.
  
 Nice LDO that LM2941 - Military grade
 http://www.ti.com/product/lm2941
  
 The price is excellent - cheaper then a U12.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Good news on the ground.  Yes the clocks are the same as in the MX-U8.  Looks like an additional set of PS 'lytic caps - added to the four like on the MX-U8.  Case looks tall - so could accommodate replacement larger caps.  I like that the spdif RCA is hard wired vs board mounted.  It's my input for the two dacs I'm running, as neither has hdmi inputs.  I would replace that brass output - with a pure tellurium-copper one.
> 
> Nice LDO that LM2941 - Military grade
> http://www.ti.com/product/lm2941
> ...


 
  
 The ST device is a DC-DC converter (step-up / step-down).
 LM2941 isn't low noise regulator.
 The taller caps aren't as good as same value in lower hight package, those caps are slower.
  
 Doesn't seem a bad device, but not sure how it will sound. Will definitely not compare to MX-U8 (looking componentwise)


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> The ST device is a DC-DC converter (step-up / step-down).
> LM2941 isn't low noise regulator.
> The taller caps aren't as good as same value in lower hight package, those caps are slower.
> 
> Doesn't seem a bad device, but not sure how it will sound. Will definitely not compare to MX-U8 (looking componentwise)


 

 Well not quite sure how the specs match up to the Linear LT1963 in the MX-U8 as they use different metrics:
  
 LT1963: *40μVRMS (10Hz to 100kHz)​* *LM2941:​* 
RMS output noise, % of VOUT10 Hz to 100 kHz, IOUT = 5 mA 0.003%

 I would replace those caps with Nichicon Fine Golds - which come in narrow tall or lower wider versions - exact same values and statistics.  It's nice to have the height  - but one could always good with the shorter package.  I just happen to have the taller ones left over from another project.
  
 In my MX-U8 I had to mount them sideways which meant longer leads then I would have liked:

  
  
  
 But the Breeze Audio uses two PLUS four 'lytic caps.  I also see a Wima film cap - probably used as bypass.
  
 I contacted the builder to see if he could offer a Crystek clock upgrade option - would be great to be able to get them installed by the factory.  For the cost of this unit - it might still be cheaper with Crysteks then the stock MX-U8.


----------



## rb2013

Regarding the Melodious MX-U8:
  
 It looks like there have been some design changes:
  
 - New XO USB clock in place of the TXCO
 - Addition of heat sinks on the LDO and XMOS chips
 - A different (custom made) AC block
 - possibly the cap after the LT1963 has been upgraded to a better ELNA (should be an easy mod)
  
 Pictures from Gino and Sergey on the MX-U8 thread (thought I would share here as many folks have been following this unit here)
  Gino's unit:



  Sergey's unit:


  

  
 So looking at those heat sinks - I tried adding a quick heat sink (just modded a soldering sink) to see if I could eliminate or reduce the unlocks I was getting on my one unit.  Which in the 90 degree heat been having was to the point of occurring after 2 or 3 songs (now that was getting really annoying!).
  
 Worked great!  Listened last night for 2 hours without unlock.
  
 So I'm going to take a PC video card heat sink I have left in my scrap pile and cut it down to a much smaller size add some Zalman thermal paste and see if this fixes the problem.  Without a sink and putting my finger on the top of the LT1963 it was burning hot.  I didn't do anything to the XMOS except I removed the thick 3M RFI/EMI pad on top.
 So that one I will leave alone.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Regarding the Melodious MX-U8:
> 
> It looks like there have been some design changes:
> 
> ...


 
  
 There's a possibility the Nichicon caps do draw more amperage from LT1963, I think that's why it's getting hot.
  
 Nice to see Melodious is following this forum, why would they otherwise have replaced the power inlet 
  
 Keep up the good work 
  
 Alex


----------



## Rhamnetin

Hi all, I have some novice questions that I couldn't find the answers to.  Would this offer a big sound quality improvement opposed to using optical straight to a Gustard X12?  Nothing I listen to is DSD either so I doubt I have a need for this device.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> There's a possibility the Nichicon caps do draw more amperage from LT1963, I think that's why it's getting hot.
> 
> Nice to see Melodious is following this forum, why would they otherwise have replaced the power inlet
> 
> ...


 

 The Nichicons are the HW's and they are low impedance - but since Melodious has added heat sinks to all the new units - I think it's a design flaw.  Either in the LT1963 or how it's implemented in the MX-U8 or some combination of the two.  Doubt he would have done that - thinking modders where going to change caps then create a problem.  Could be that at 120V there is an issue not found when operating at 220-240V.  You are in Europe right?
  
 The power outlet looks like a proprietary design (marked with Melodious on it) - added filtering?


----------



## rb2013

rhamnetin said:


> Hi all, I have some novice questions that I couldn't find the answers to.  Would this offer a big sound quality improvement opposed to using optical straight to a Gustard X12?  Nothing I listen to is DSD either so I doubt I have a need for this device.


 

 Yes generally going AES or SPDIF RCA Coax will improve your sound qual.  Or I2S.


----------



## motberg

rhamnetin said:


> Hi all, I have some novice questions that I couldn't find the answers to.  Would this offer a big sound quality improvement opposed to using optical straight to a Gustard X12?  Nothing I listen to is DSD either so I doubt I have a need for this device.


 

 I suggest to also research the Upton Audio REGEN device.. my guess is that may offer similar or greater improvement and if not should be easy to resell.. there is a waiting list though....


----------



## abartels

motberg said:


> I suggest to also research the Upton Audio REGEN device.. my guess is that may offer similar or greater improvement and if not should be easy to resell.. there is a waiting list though....


 
  
 Hi Tom,
  
 Did you test your Uptone USB REGEN device? What are your findings?
  
  
  
 Btw, Hope you weren't in Tianjin last night!
  
  
 Cheers  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Alex


----------



## motberg

Hi Alex,
  
 I installed the REGEN yesterday and let it break in for about 15 hours before listening.
 My first impression is something like _"everyone should get one of these things"._..
  
 Besides a Gustard U12, the past year or so I have also tried 3 other DDC's, a half dozen DAC's, some of the popular USB cables.. and have now settled my system at this configuration:
 Gigabyte GA-Z87M-D3H, I5-4670t, NOFAN CR-95c, 2x4 GB Corsair, TeraDak 210 ATX LPS with separate 5V line for PPA V2 USB card, PPA 5V battery pack powers a 32GB OS SSD, music is all WAV files on SSD, both SSD's use PPA red thin SATA cables and suspension blocks, WIN2012 and AO, JPlay6, Mini, Total Commander. Ultrastream, (DAC@5hz, Buffer@1sec., Clock@10.0ms), PPA dual USB cable, REGEN/adapter (using Teradak 9V LPS), Tanly DDC via HDMI i2S to Audio-GD M7....
  
 I expected the REGEN would not make any substantial difference, but in fact I think it was a bigger improvement than most the DDC  and cable upgrades I made... that is why I suggested to the X12 owner to consider a REGEN, even before the U12..
 I am using a TeraDak 9V LPS for the Regen and the stock adapter, I have not tried with the stock REGEN PS...
  
  
 I was not in the Tianjin area yesterday but my son is a fire-fighter in the USA, so those loses particularly hit close to home...
 I think sometimes we take for granted all those public servants who routinely put themselves in danger to keep us safe.. regardless of the state they serve, they really all deserve our respect..
 My prayers to all those affected by the Tianjin tragedy yesterday..
  
 Saludos,
  
 Tom


----------



## abartels

Hi Tom, 

Good to know usb regen does a very good job, probably i will buy one too! 

My father was a fire-fighter for almost 40 years so i know what you are talking about. 

Indeed, prayers to all affected by the Tianjin disaster. 



Regards, 

Alex


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Hi Alex,
> 
> I installed the REGEN yesterday and let it break in for about 15 hours before listening.
> My first impression is something like _"everyone should get one of these things"._..
> ...


 

 Nice setup!  I love that PPA gear - quite expensive.
  
 Looking at the REGEN USB - it reminds of the Schiit Wryd and the iFi USBPower device.  Pretty simple on the surface - here are some details:


> *he UpTone Audio USB REGEN just might be the next big leap for computer audio.*
> _[The reviews from many of the over 700 people worldwide now using a REGEN are filled with excitement over how musically effective the device is.  Drop in on some thoughtful ones here at ComputerAudiophile.com:_* USB REGEN Listening Impressions.*_]_
> The USB REGEN takes the digital audio stream from your computer or other music streaming device, and *generates a completely new USB data signal to feed to your DAC.  *It accomplishes this by combining* *a carefully chosen USB hub chip with an ultra low-noise regulator and low-jitter clock.  Importantly, it does so with ideal impedance matching—*right at the input of your DAC.*
> If you are familiar with the variations in sound quality that come from different computer configurations, USB cables, and power supplies (no, "bits are bits" really does not apply when pursuing the audio summit), then you will immediately recognize the often dramatic effect that the REGEN can have on the the connection you feel with the music.
> ...


 


  
  
 So for the claim at reclocking the data stream from the PC - it does not appear to use any special clocks - seems like a straight forward XO clock.  So that is unlikely what is causing the sound improvement.
  
 'Cleaning' the power source should not apply to the DDC's were talking about - like the U12 (well possibly as the ground from the PC is in the circuit for poweron), MX-U8, Tanly.  As these DDC bridges have their own AC power source.
  
 But the claim on exact impedance matching - does look very interesting - and I believe the reason one USB cable sounds different then another (some better).  Impedance matching it critical to good sound.  From the technical papers I have read - even the slightest impedance mismatch - creates signal echoing or ringing in the connection.  These wreak havoc on the input processing.  SPDIF coax is very attuned to this - I noted a nice improvement in the performance of one of DAC's (My LIte DAC60) by replacing the SPDIF input jack from the CRC gold plated brass unit with a pure tellurium-copper unit designed for exact 75 ohm impedance. The EICHMANN ETI Phonopod HC-XTC
 http://www.vhaudio.com/phonopod.html.  My APL DAC uses the very expensive WBT Nexgen connector with even more exact 75 ohm impedance and a unique design.
  
 So this impedance matching may be the key.  It's especially interesting that you experience such a large improvement in the SQ, even with the Tanly, which goes to such great lengths to isolate the USB signal (FPGA isolation buffer).


----------



## abartels

I noticed, both Tanly and Hydra-Z dont have output transformer for spdif and aes. Maybe they use optocouplers instead (as i did in my own dac design 20 years ago) . Could try that too in mx-u8 but again, it needs seperate galvanic isolated psu.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> ....  Without a sink and putting my finger on the top of *the LT1963 it was burning hot  *....


 
  
 Hi !   * if 5VDC is everything these usb to spdif converters need *i think that the solution of the Hydra Z is, at the end of the game, the smartest. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 A dc socket to make people free to use the power supply of their choice ... and maybe just some buffer uF inside the converter.  Some good quality 2200 uF should be enough
  

  
 Because i do not think that anyone sane of mind would use the Hydra powered from the usb ... this would be a huge waste.
 Ciao to everyone
 gino


----------



## bimmer100

I should be getting my USB Regen in the mail on monday. Kinda looking forward to it even more-so now!
  
 I will try it with my U12 and also Amanero Combo 384
  
 and with and without the PPA V3 OCXO pcie card.  my other one is Eifidelity internal USB.
 both are powered from a teradak LPS
  
 I will power the Regen Amber from my other teradak which is just a UV9
  
  
 Fun times ahead.
  
 Tomorrow i'm getting my PS Audio AC regenerator. the PS 300. My whole dac/amp and all misc gear will all run from it. cleeeeean power.


----------



## stuartmc

Tom, I've been following the Regen thread and wondering if it would make much of an improvement in front of my Tanly. Now you've gone and made me have to buy the thing!


----------



## bimmer100

can a few people comment on the best way to setup the U12 with jriver?
  
 it seems to be picky...
  
 is kernel stream, wasapi or asio?
 and what specific settings?
 why?


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> I noticed, both Tanly and Hydra-Z dont have output transformer for spdif and aes. Maybe they use optocouplers instead (as i did in my own dac design 20 years ago) . Could try that too in mx-u8 but again, it needs seperate galvanic isolated psu.


 

 Yes they use FPGA isolation - on the theory that the Pulse and Murata's don;t allow enough bandwith for high frequency pass through (176K and 192K - as the i2s has the even higher res passthroughs).  But I don;t think that's true -as all these DDC bridges easily pass 192K through spdif/aes.


----------



## DACLadder

bimmer100 said:


> can a few people comment on the best way to setup the U12 with jriver?
> 
> it seems to be picky...
> 
> ...


 
 J River has an OK write up the modes.  With Windows 7 and beyond I have stuck with WASAPI which is like kernel mode in that it bypasses the Windows audio mixer plus low overhead on CPU loading.  
  
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Kernel_Streaming#Kernel_Streaming


----------



## bimmer100

dacladder said:


> J River has an OK write up the modes.  With Windows 7 and beyond I have stuck with WASAPI which is like kernel mode in that it bypasses the Windows audio mixer plus low overhead on CPU loading.
> 
> http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Kernel_Streaming#Kernel_Streaming


 
  
  
 with the via usb 32 i've always used kernel streaming or wasapi
  
 now with the amanero I use ASIO
  
 and the U12 I use ASIO too.
  
 the Via had no issues running with all options, no problems...but the U12 and amanero give error messages if they are not set up just perfectly.
  
 I was curious if ASIO really is the best option like Jriver's writeup suggests..

 I guess I like to know why, not just do it because they say too.


----------



## motberg

stuartmc said:


> Tom, I've been following the Regen thread and wondering if it would make much of an improvement in front of my Tanly. Now you've gone and made me have to buy the thing!


 
 Sorry about that! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I hope your results are similar to mine..

 I think REGEN SQ is getting even better now after 30 hours, seems the sound field is now more detached from the speakers and the acoustic space (front to back) between sound elements is more empty.
  
 Anyway... one comment about expectation bias..  I have minor past experience working in live bands and recording, so some idea of what to listen for.. (in fact, I think understanding the music production process takes-away somewhat from the "magic" of the home audio experience because of the inclination to analyze ...).  I listen almost exclusively in the middle of the night, and my room is a treated one-person dedicated environment.
 In the past couple years tweaking this computer audio stuff, listening results after a change have only gone maybe 50% of the time the way I would have expected...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 This is fun stuff for sure !


----------



## rb2013

It loses the PC lock, the driver seems to not fuction (all of them KS, ASIO, etc...). I have to close and reopen Foobar to get the connection reest.

 I rigged a new heat sink and it's working well.  Except we have been getting crazy extreme lightning storms over our house the last few days - yesterday was esp bad.  I turn off and unplug every thing when they come.

 Before the addition of the heat sinks it was unlocking every other song with the hot weather.


----------



## rb2013

Ordered the Audio Breeze to give one a try.
  

  


 The unit features these caps called "Panasonic's top audio filter caps Master XPO series".  But can't find these anywhere - Digikey and Mouser do not carry them.  Anyone run across them before?
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/271948361421?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> The unit features these caps called "Panasonic's top audio filter caps Master XPO series".  But can't find these anywhere - Digikey and Mouser do not carry them.  Anyone run across them before?


 
 I looked at the Panasonic cap selector guide which only lists two character families for current caps.  XPO doesn't make sense.  Even searching "xpo capacitor" turns up nothing.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Ordered the Audio Breeze to give one a try.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't claim to know a lot about components and have little experience other than a project replacing caps out of PC speaker/amp a few years back. Those caps look like teapo brand wth the green color. Usually a bad brand from what I understand. I ran into companies actually relabeling caps. Fake names etc. I wonder if that's what is going on. As if they are really not Panasonic at all? I am just making an assumption. You would think the part would exist from the manufacture even if they discontinued it. 
I have a ton of caps laying around that are apparently audio grade stuff. It would be nice to have them identified by someone who is educated with the components more than I am. I actually need to sell them to make space, so maybe someone on this forum would be interested in a good deal.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> I looked at the Panasonic cap selector guide which only lists two character families for current caps.  XPO doesn't make sense.  Even searching "xpo capacitor" turns up nothing.


 

 Yes - that's what I found.  Or should I say didn't find.
  
 Could these possibly be only available in Japan?
  
 I love the Similic II's and the Nichicon Fine Golds - but always looking for a new, possibly better audio filter cap.
  
  
  
 On another note comparing the linear regulators in the U12 vs the Audio Breeze.

 The U12 uses the TI LM31702T which had this spec for noise:
 http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm317.pdf
 RMS output noise voltage f = 10 Hz to 10 kHz, TJ = 25°C 0.003 %VO - note the capping of the freq range at 10kHz -the AB's 2941 out to 100kHz.
 And Ripple Rejection by frequency at -60dB to 10Khz but falling dramatically from there on out to -40dB at 100Khz then to -20 dB at 1MHz
  
 The Audio Breeze uses the TI Military grade LDO LM2941 with noise specs:
 http://www.ti.com/product/LM2941/datasheet/specifications#SNVS7705121

RMS output noise, % of VOUT10 Hz to 100 kHz, IOUT = 5 mA 0.003%  
  
  

  The Ripple Rejection stays strong through the frequency range staying at -75dB to -65dB from 10Hz to 1Mhz

          
  
 So it appears the Audio Breeze LDO is a much better one then the Gustard's.  This is obviously a very important element in the entire systems operation.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I don't claim to know a lot about components and have little experience other than a project replacing caps out of PC speaker/amp a few years back. Those caps look like teapo brand wth the green color. Usually a bad brand from what I understand. I ran into companies actually relabeling caps. Fake names etc. I wonder if that's what is going on. As if they are really not Panasonic at all? I am just making an assumption. You would think the part would exist from the manufacture even if they discontinued it.
> I have a ton of caps laying around that are apparently audio grade stuff. It would be nice to have them identified by someone who is educated with the components more than I am. I actually need to sell them to make space, so maybe someone on this forum would be interested in a good deal.


 

 I think I figured it out - they must be Sanyo's which is a wholly owned subsidary of Panasonic.  That green and gold color scheme rang a bell as I replaced some a while ago in my R2R DAC Project.  They are not marked Master XPO but SE series - they are green and gold in the same color scheme.
  

  
 Sanyo was bought out by Panasonic some years go. Still very curious as to this elusive 'Master XPO' series.


----------



## Wildcatsare1

Hey Goys, just started a new thread for those interested in vintage or current R2R DACs, hope to see you there!
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/777597/vintage-current-r2r-dac-owners-discussion-insight-and-review-thread


----------



## kaboomooo

This looks very good. Is there any retailer for this item?


----------



## rb2013

kaboomooo said:


> This looks very good. Is there any retailer for this item?


See the Ebay link I posted. The only place I've seen it.


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Ordered the Audio Breeze to give one a try.


 
 I would be interested in a comparison between this, the Gustard and the Melodious once you get it.
 I like how Breeze Audio uses a complete separate 2 stage regulator for the crystals.
  
 I also had the green panasonic caps in my older Breeze unit, on that one those caps did not measure too well for ESR and dissipation factor (D)  compared to the modern day stuff from Nichicon or Chemicon, for this type of application (highspeed digital) ,I look at the numbers above 10kHz


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> I would be interested in a comparison between this, the Gustard and the Melodious once you get it.
> I like how Breeze Audio uses a complete separate 2 stage regulator for the crystals.
> 
> I also had the green panasonic caps in my older Breeze unit, on that one those caps did not measure too well for ESR and dissipation factor (D)  compared to the modern day stuff from Nichicon or Chemicon, for this type of application (highspeed digital) ,I look at the numbers above 10kHz


 

 So that unit was a Breeze as well (see back about 100 pages ago), you had modded.  Interesting.
  
 You are the pro on these circuit designs - can you elaborate a bit more on the separate 2 stage regulator for the crystals.  Is that the section of four green caps and the section with two green caps?  What do you think of swapping out the transformer for something better like an Amgis?  Looks like this one is a standard config vs the Gustard custom.
  
 Once I get it, I'll be able to remove the boards and post better pics of each side.
  
 Were those greenies marked as 'Master XPO' by any chance?  Well I'll give them a few hundred hrs then put in some nice Nichicon FG's or HW's.  But remove the Pannie's with care to remount if they are better by any chance.
  
 PS Edit I found the page - 6! post #80.  Here is the post:


> The independent power supply helps a lot because it is no longer dependent on the weak and noisy USB 5V supply, which can only supply up to 500mA of current, that can drop to 100mA in some cases.
> If you are interested in a better power supply consider replacing the power transformer, I have a similar unit based on the previous generation XMOS and it came with the green Bingzi transformer. I wanted something that was UL rated and replaced it with an Amgis/Alfamag, the bonus was it ran much cooler and the Alfamag was about 10% heavier (more copper in the windings)
> Outside of the US, Talema is easier to find and a little cheaper.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Here is the Audio Breeze that I just bought:

  
 That's a picture of the Gustard U1O you had modded right?  Or the Audio Breeze?
  
 I do see some similar (but not exact) design layout similarities...like the 2 stage filters.
  
 I also noticed those LDO LT317's mounted on heat sinks.
  
 Edit: BTW You did a sweet job mounting those Crysteks!  How did you do that so clean and neat?  Low temp soldering paste?


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> - can you elaborate a bit more on the separate 2 stage regulator for the crystals.  Is that the section of four green caps and the section with two green caps?
> 
> 
> What do you think of swapping out the transformer for something better like an Amgis?  Looks like this one is a standard config vs the Gustard custom.
> ...


 
  
 The 2 stage regulator is towards the top of the picture with the 2 caps, it keeps the power supply noise to a minimum, this is essential if any benefits of the low jitter Crystek XOs are to be realized.
  
 The Amgis will work as it is the same foot print as the previous generation.
  
 The green Panasonic caps that came with mine were the X-Pros, there is no information available from Panasonic directly, they are some sort of audio cap.
 Audio caps are not really suitable for the digital circuits here, the Nichicon HW or the Panasonic FM is a better choice.
  
 Here are a couple of pictures


  
 My unit is a Breeze Audio.
  
 The LT317A are a improved version of the standard 317 made by Linear Tech, it gets quite warm when running, suggest you keep an eye out on the temps of the new unit.
  
 One of the Crysteks were soldered on using a fine tip iron and the other using  low-temp solder paste, the final finishing was done with a hot-air wand so the end results look almost identical. (The two crystals were done at different times)


----------



## b0bb

A couple close up of the Crysteks on their DIP Adapters

  
 The other side


----------



## kaboomooo

rb2013 said:


> See the Ebay link I posted. The only place I've seen it.


 
 Oooh crap, don't they at least have a website somewhere  I hate Ebay when item dont turn up they keep on ask me to wait for a little longer and half of time they can't even speak proper English


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> A couple close up of the Crysteks on their DIP Adapters
> 
> 
> The other side


 

 Well that is just a beautiful mounting job.  Will have to get a fine tip SI and some of that low temp paste.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

kaboomooo said:


> Oooh crap, don't they at least have a website somewhere  I hate Ebay when item dont turn up they keep on ask me to wait for a little longer and half of time they can't even speak proper English


 

 Ebay works fine for me and at least a money back guarantee if DOA.


----------



## rb2013

Just received my Forza Audio Works - FAW Copper Series Twin USB
http://forzaaudioworks.com/en/product.php?id_product=46
 
Sounds very nice - has a completely separate power line from the data line.  The MX-U8 works fine with just the data line and power left unplugged.
Needs a little more run time - but so far sweet, detailed , dynamic, awesome bass depth.  Looks like my Stilnote is going on the block.


 I'm liking as much or even more then my 4 time more expensive Silnote Poseidon USB.  With the Gustard you have to get a linear ps or LiPo power feed to activate the internal switch.  But then it would be totally isolated from the PC's power and ground.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> The 2 stage regulator is towards the top of the picture with the 2 caps, it keeps the power supply noise to a minimum, this is essential if any benefits of the low jitter Crystek XOs are to be realized.
> 
> The Amgis will work as it is the same foot print as the previous generation.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks!  And recommedations on which paste?


----------



## jjacq

Just got the U12 today, which drivers to install...? Also how do I use this with foobar?


----------



## m0reilly

rb2013 said:


> Thanks!  And recommedations on which paste?


 
 a recommended paste, yes please


----------



## m0reilly

jjacq said:


> Just got the U12 today, which drivers to install...? Also how do I use this with foobar?


 
http://speedy.sh/RXMDH/Luckit-2.23-for-Gustard-U12.rar


----------



## jjacq

m0reilly said:


> http://speedy.sh/RXMDH/Luckit-2.23-for-Gustard-U12.rar


 

 Thanks!! And thanks for the awesome sale, I will leave feedback.


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Thanks!  And recommedations on which paste?


 
 http://www.chipquik.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=440001
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SMDLTLFP/SMDLTLFP-ND/2682721
  
 Chip quik low temp (138 degC) *lead free*
  
 The last part is very important it has to be lead free as solder paste dries to a fine powder that could be inhaled or swallowed, big danger to kids and pets.
  
 BTW It is either a soldering iron with conventional wire solder or  paste + hot air gun, heating paste with a soldering iron usually makes  a mess


----------



## b0bb

m0reilly said:


> a recommended paste, yes please


 

 Dotto my response to rb2013


----------



## m0reilly

jjacq said:


> Thanks!! And thanks for the awesome sale, I will leave feedback.


----------



## m0reilly

b0bb said:


> Dotto my response to rb2013


 
 thanks b, which hot air do you recommend?


----------



## hgpsemaj

Audio Breeze XMOS USB Digital Interface also offers Talema transformer for an additional cost of RMB100.
  
  
 http://world.taobao.com/item/520991006222.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.1414651174895.5.l9FoDJ&scm=1007.10146.6070.0&id=520991006222&pvid=0a563792-baf2-4d9c-a6a6-c0d30c560f8d


----------



## b0bb

m0reilly said:


> thanks b, which hot air do you recommend?


 
 This is the one I used to solder the XOs about  85-120 $USD on Ebay and other places, model Yihua 8508D+

  
 The air pump is in the main box and is very quiet.
  
 The analog knobs are really nice to use for making quick adjustments, the only thing I did  as a precaution was to replace all the electrolytic caps with long life Nichicon and Rubycons which have a life of between 5000 and 10000 hours@105degC
  
 http://yihua-soldering.com/product-3-3-4-hot-air-rework-station.html/158746
  
 Review with pictures:
 http://www.ittsb.eu/YIHUA8508D+%20.html
  
 I would avoid the cheaper ones with the fan built into the handle, they get too hot and this may lead to reliability issues.


----------



## hgpsemaj

It looks similar:
  
 http://world.taobao.com/item/41457341150.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.daPyz6#detail


----------



## b0bb

hgpsemaj said:


> It looks similar:
> 
> http://world.taobao.com/item/41457341150.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.daPyz6#detail


 

 Yes that is one. The Yihua brand is quite widely distributed and easy to get.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> http://www.chipquik.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=440001
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SMDLTLFP/SMDLTLFP-ND/2682721
> 
> Chip quik low temp (138 degC) *lead free*
> ...


 

 Thanks!


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> Audio Breeze XMOS USB Digital Interface also offers Talema transformer for an additional cost of RMB100.
> 
> 
> http://world.taobao.com/item/520991006222.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.1414651174895.5.l9FoDJ&scm=1007.10146.6070.0&id=520991006222&pvid=0a563792-baf2-4d9c-a6a6-c0d30c560f8d


 

 Now you tell me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Kidding...good to know.  The pins are the same it's not much to swap - but certainly nice to get it that way.

 Wish he would offer a Crystek clock upgrade - that's not so easy.
  
 EDIT FYI
 Here is the Google translation of the taobao ad:


> *Using XMOS-U8 core, the latest scheme, up to 32B 384khz asynchronous transfer*
> *Built imported TALEMA sealed cattle, mining with top linear regulator chip, multi-level multi-group independent power supply, better than the market a few hundred dollars XMOS linear power, the whole network only one with such a high-end power XMOS decoding, independent Advantage powered connoisseur knows, even if the external power supply better, circuit design is not fully independent regulator is ineffective*
> *Do the upgrade of the clock circuit optimization, 44.1 / 88.2 / 176.4 /352.8Khz and 48/96/192 / 384kHz respectively two crystal*
> *Output interface is complete, with all current mainstream interfaces to improve playability*
> ...


----------



## riffer

b0bb said:


> This is the one I used to solder the XOs about  85-120 $USD on Ebay and other places, model Yihua 8508D+
> 
> 
> The air pump is in the main box and is very quiet.
> ...



 


It's going to be hard for me to find an excuse not to buy one at that price.


----------



## Wynnytsky

hey RB long time no chat
 This thread is out of control -- since I don't know how to search through it's contents I'm going to bring up a topic that was surely covered in here more than once
  
 For me AES has been a tremendous improvement over coax through a long bluejean AES cable.  Where coax has more focus, a bass+midrange hump, and smaller stage, the AES has been exceptionally balanced top to bottom, with a wider stage that's probably due to it's superior high freq response.
  
 In the winter my friend got the Gustard X12 DAC.  He's been rolling all kinds of expensive short spdif cables.  A couple weeks back he connected the two Gustards with a $300 HDMI cable and difference was very much like what I experienced when I switched to AES.  I tried using a skinny XLR interconnect cable as AES on his system but there was no magic.  I doubt a decent AES cable could hold a candle to the sound he was getting from that HDMI cable.  I suspect that AES might have the single advantage of being suited for longer runs.
  
 My Yulong D18 doesn't have an I2S input.  My next audio room will have one system on the short wall, and another on the long wall, and they will share one computer+U12.  I'll get an I2S DAC that will be a short run to the U12 and my AES DAC will have the long run to the U12.  In the center of it all will be a swivel chair with a low back.
  
 Can anyone recommend an I2S DAC for my U12?  The X12 is a plenty affordable ESS 9018 DAC.  It's hard to beat at that price.


----------



## m0reilly

the x12 is a sweet spot for the i2s. i miss it atm (sold mine...bad idea). with a decent bridge, the i2s via hdmi is superlative. the wyred 4 sound dac 2 (used) is desirable because of its analog out plus the i2s, which they state is the best way to go re their dac. the new gustard x20 looks to offer 'more' of the x12 goodness... i'm kinda in the same boat atm, re i2s dac.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> hey RB long time no chat
> This thread is out of control -- since I don't know how to search through it's contents I'm going to bring up a topic that was surely covered in here more than once
> 
> For me AES has been a tremendous improvement over coax through a long bluejean AES cable.  Where coax has more focus, a bass+midrange hump, and smaller stage, the AES has been exceptionally balanced top to bottom, with a wider stage that's probably due to it's superior high freq response.
> ...


 

 Well I'm a R2R DAC guy and the ESS9018 DACs I've had were not to my taste.  A bit dry and lacking in tone.  I'm also a tube DAC fan - so my APL and heavily modded DAC60 are serving me well.  Rich, natural tone to die for.
  
 Now I have rolled 6 or 7 spdif coax cables and they all sound different - some better then others.  So after that experimentation I found one that is just killer good. Beating the totl $600 Synergistic Research Tesla active - at 1/3 of the price.  AES is based on the spdif protocal but with a higher signal current for long runs.  For me the X12 or the upcoming X20 are not on the list of contenders - but might be the ticket for some.  You could check out the Audio-gd DACs - I hear they are very good (I'd be partial to the R2R PCM1704 versions). http://www.audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm
  
 Anyway I'm using the Melodious MX-U8 almost exclusively right now not the Gustard.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## bimmer100

wynnytsky said:


> hey RB long time no chat
> This thread is out of control -- since I don't know how to search through it's contents I'm going to bring up a topic that was surely covered in here more than once
> 
> For me AES has been a tremendous improvement over coax through a long bluejean AES cable.  Where coax has more focus, a bass+midrange hump, and smaller stage, the AES has been exceptionally balanced top to bottom, with a wider stage that's probably due to it's superior high freq response.
> ...


 
 I would recommend getting a DAC19 if you're on a budget or go all out and get the Master11. Audio-gd makes extremely good dac/amp's
  
 I've owned both of the above. Also if you must... the sabre dac is good, and I own a NFB28 as well. It's implementation is the best i've heard of any sabre dac.
  
 Either way, I love my Master11 and it's my end game amp/dac. I've ordered it with the 22db gain or +6 option, as well as HDMI i2s to replace rj45 i2s, and screen go dark after 7 sec. 
  
 I'm a big fan of audio-gd as their products are built like a tank and very well thought out. Join the master 11 thread or DAC19 and read up. 
  
 R2R dac's are the way to go, the sound is sooooo much better. still very detailed yet able to capture the life in music and bring out all the nuances that tell our brains we are listening to a live instrument. Sabre dac's miss a lot of that and sound dry or lifeless in comparison. 
  
 I currently use a gustard U12 (modded for audio-gd i2s) HDMI i2s for my usb transport. I'm torn between that and the onboard amanero combo 384. Both are so darn good. I also tried the USB regen and didn't see any improvement to be outright honest. Maybe my system is already ideally setup. I'm using very good cables and powering everything from pure sinewave from a ps audio ps300 a/c regenerator w/multiwave2 (big improvement). Also a paul pang v3 ocxo pcie usb card in my audio pc.  Some mods made a difference, some don't. I use a supra usb cable and found it to be the best of anything i've tried. 
  
 Check out audio-gd and you'll be surprised how much you get for you're money. Don't be fooled by the poor english translations. The quality of the product is insanely good and well built. They have a 10year warranty too.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I would recommend getting a DAC19 if you're on a budget or go all out and get the Master11. Audio-gd makes extremely good dac/amp's
> 
> I've owned both of the above. Also if you must... the sabre dac is good, and I own a NFB28 as well. It's implementation is the best i've heard of any sabre dac.
> 
> ...


 

 With you on the R2R thing.
  
 Wynnytsky you could also checkout the Master 7.1 uses the R2R PCM1704 - 8 of them and has the hdmi input you're looking for.  $2295 plus shipping.
 This DAC has won many positive reviews.
  
 Also the LITE DAC83 - PCM1704 based as well 4 in fact.  Has HDMI input too.  Darko has a very good review on it.
 http://cattylink.com/page404.html $1055 plus shipping.


----------



## evillamer

Anyway guys, check out this video. It seems that adding a copper shielding to the power cord connector helps with reducing stray magnetics


----------



## stuartmc

evillamer said:


> Anyway guys, check out this video. It seems that adding a copper shielding to the power cord connector helps with reducing stray magnetics





Very interesting. I use Yamamura sleeves on all my power cords and they do the same thing as the copper in this video.


----------



## rb2013

evillamer said:


> Anyway guys, check out this video. It seems that adding a copper shielding to the power cord connector helps with reducing stray magnetics





 Cool!  I built small Faraday cages with metal boxes covered with 3M RFI/EMI shielding for all my digital connectors


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> Now you tell me!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 For your information:
  
 Factory installation of Crystek is available at no extra cost. Provided you forward your own Crystek to the factory, and they would also deduct the cost of the standard clock from the invoice.
  
 Well.......it's a bit late, but informative, innit?


----------



## akim4g

I recieved my gustard u12 few days ago. Use it with essence one. 44.1-96 works perfect, 192khz doesnt work. I also tried to use essence st spdif out, and 192khz works fine.
Then I play 192khz music, there is "192" on gustards screen, but no sound(
Tried coax/optical- no matter.

"Essence ST - coax - essence one" 192khz works fine
"PC - USB - essence one 192khz works fine"
"PC - USB - Gustard u12 - coax - essence one" 192khz no sound.

Is it possible, that essence one and gustard u12 is not compatible? Or gustard is broken?


----------



## Wynnytsky

I hope all you guys are happy for making me very late for work today
  
  
 Quote:


m0reilly said:


> the new gustard x20 looks to offer 'more' of the x12 goodness... i'm kinda in the same boat atm, re i2s dac.


 
 wow, where have I been.  That's the first I heard of the X20
  


bimmer100 said:


> I also tried the USB regen and didn't see any improvement to be outright honest. Maybe my system is already ideally setup. I'm using very good cables and powering everything from pure sinewave from a ps audio ps300 a/c regenerator w/multiwave2 (big improvement).
> 
> Check out audio-gd and you'll be surprised how much you get for you're money. Don't be fooled by the poor english translations. The quality of the product is insanely good and well built. They have a 10year warranty too.


 
 I'm using all the IFI stuff (minus the tube buffer) for usb regen, and I'm plenty happy.  I also use a PS3 for A/C regen, though I found I could listen longer with multiwave off.  Still it's always a pleasure to do "regression testing" after any serious change to the audio chain.
  
  


rb2013 said:


> With you on the R2R thing.
> 
> Wynnytsky you could also checkout the Master 7.1 uses the R2R PCM1704 - 8 of them and has the hdmi input you're looking for.  $2295 plus shipping.


 
  
 I've always thought that Kingwa would continue to improve his 9018 implementations until they bested his vintage chips, but now it's my time to give R2R a try.  This year I've heard the magic of a passive TVC (transformer volume control, but in my case it was Dave Slagle's autoformer).  If I get the Master 7 this winter then I'll use it with an integrated tube amp and maybe next year I'll get a passive pre for my main rig.  But perhaps the preamp section of the Master 11 is something to be desired?
  
 What puzzles me is that the Master 11 claims to be a Master 7 + 9
     Master 7:    15kg $2225
     Master 9:    16kg $1550
     Master 11:  15kg $1950
 And yet, the weights and prices don't reflect that
  
 Also when I compare the input power and DAC output impedance...
     Master 7:    48watt, 10ohm
     Master 11:  45watt, 1ohm
 ...it's strange that the unit with the preamp consumes less power.
 And wouldn't the lower output impedance be more attractive?
  
 I plan to never put cans on my head.
 Which way to go:  RB's M7 or Bimmer's M11?
 (I believe the "7.1" designation applies to the Reference model, which is actually cheaper than the master)


----------



## rb2013

Hydra Z on the way!  Alex on the MX-U8 thread did a comparison to his fully tricked out MX-U8 and they tied each other.
 
  

  
  
 Crystek clocks!

  
  
  
 
I bought a 16,000 mAh Li ion battery to power the unit -should have plenty of juice and are very cheap (and can always use to back up my phone), if the sound pans out, I will but another and have one always on the charge.
 
Capacity 16000mAh
Color: Silver
Battery Type: 18650
Input: 5V 2A
Output: 5V 2.1A*2  MAX 3.6A
 
I will get a cable to connect the power from the battery and will also try this Forza FAW Copper Series split cable I just received.  Seperate data and power USB leads.
http://forzaaudioworks.com/en/product.php?id_product=46
 
 
Now I'll be able to do a head to head shootout with the Gustard U12 (upgraded caps), Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps), Audio Breeze (upgraded caps), Hydra Z with wall wart or Li ion power.  Fun!!
 
Hydra Z - USB audio playback bridge and clock generator  The previous model of Hydra, the X+, has built its reputation based on excellent sound quality. From our perspective, it is time to move on, and offer a new interface, that we named usb audio playback bridge.
While raising the bar even more in sound quality and keeping the existing set of features precedently available, the new Hydra Z comes with a list of improvements that we’re happy to share. Among the changes are a complete redesign of the digital board, changes in the way the Hydra is powered, new output configuration, new chassis and many other refinements – please see below.
*MORE FLEXIBLE* The Hydra Z can be powered in 3 (three) ways :

Directly from USB
From an external, fixed 5Vdc/0.5-1A power supply
From the dedicated Hydra ZPM (Z-Power Module)
 Furthermore features:

Extended number/type of outputs
Adjustable I2S output clock polarity, to match all HDMI/I2S/LVDS dacs available
Adjustable masterclock output on I2S (512xfs or 1024xfs)
Firmware upgrade over usb
DSD native / DoP / hi-quality PCM converted (selectable)
DXD native (I2S out) / 192k or 176.4k (spdif, aes, bnc out)
 *TECHNICAL IMPROVEMENTS* Hydra Z benefits from all the qualities of the X+, and even more. New clocking scheme allows shutting down one of the two main oscillators when not in use. By reducing the mutual interference between clocks, better phase noise performance can be obtained. The power supply section was moved to a different chassis for best results.
*WORDCLOCK and MASTERCLOCK OUTPUT* The Hydra Z can be additionally used as a wordclock or masterclock generator through its dedicated BNC output. In total there are available 6 (six) outputs, including the low-jitter wordclock/masterclock output for direct synchronizing external d/a converters. The output wordclock is the sample clock (44.1KHz - 384 KHz) or 512xfs (22.5792 MHz or 24.576 MHz). The other 5(five) are : SPDIF Coaxial, SPDIF BNC, AES/EBU, I2S, TOSLINK.
*IMPROVED CHASSIS* The new Hydra has a full aluminium chassis, with a 10 mm thick front panel. All connectors are conveniently placed on the back panel.
*ISOLATION* A 5KV isolation barrier is used to prevent any leakage of the noise from PC to your sensitive audio system. The USB isolation for audio devices is nothing but tricky. If you choose to use USB isolators, then sample rate will become limited, which is not an option. If you choose to isolate the output, you are adding significant amounts of jitter to the signal. By using a clever circuit topology, the Hydra design avoids these two bottlenecks. The isolation is placed between the ARM processor and the FPGA audio core, therefore not limiting the bandwidth. Being before the clocks, its jitter contribution becomes irrelevant.
*ARM PROCESSING* All USB audio transactions are made through a powerful ARM3 processor. Therefore Hydra Z supports any sample rate available (384k PCM, DSD128) while being future-proof for any extension.
*FPGA TECHNOLOGY* As all AUDIOBYTE digital products, the Hydra Z uses cutting edge, custom digital processing developed into a Xilinx Spartan6 field-programmable gate array. The fpga is the “heart” of the Hydra. This advanced programmable circuit is offering a bit-transparent processing and signal conditioning to all outputs. It also gives the ability of the Hydra to output raw dsd audio streams.
*AUDIO GRADE CLOCKS* Unlike other products which only specify "low jitter clocks", here is exactly what you will find inside : 2xCCHD-950/957 type from Crystek. These are real audio grade clocks. You can check real graphs for them here. These clocks are system masters. In order to remove any jitter induced by the FPGA circuit itself, special retiming is applied just before the Hydra Z outputs.
*COMPONENTS AND LAYOUT* Careful PCB layout is often neglected in the rush of getting a product quickly into the market. The Hydra Z design time took lots of work until everything came into the right place, until the shortest routing paths, the best decoupling places, the less interference and crosstalk placement for the components are found. Selected quality components (active and passive) are used for guaranteed long-time performance.
*EXTERNAL POWER SUPPLY* For best results you can use the Hydra Z with the dedicated Hydra ZPMpower supply.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> I've always thought that Kingwa would continue to improve his 9018 implementations until they bested his vintage chips, but now it's my time to give R2R a try.  This year I've heard the magic of a passive TVC (transformer volume control, but in my case it was Dave Slagle's autoformer).  If I get the Master 7 this winter then I'll use it with an integrated tube amp and maybe next year I'll get a passive pre for my main rig.  But perhaps the preamp section of the Master 11 is something to be desired?
> 
> What puzzles me is that the Master 11 claims to be a Master 7 + 9
> Master 7:    15kg $2225
> ...


 
 I believe the M7 has 8 PCM1704 DAC chips the M11 4.  So they are slightly different.
  
 Do you need DSD?  If not checkout the La Scalla II
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/aqua/1.html
  
 Also we're having some fun on Wildcat's R2R DAC thread - you might want to check it out.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/777597/vintage-current-r2r-dac-owners-discussion-insight-and-review-thread/90#post_11851621


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> For your information:
> 
> Factory installation of Crystek is available at no extra cost. Provided you forward your own Crystek to the factory, and they would also deduct the cost of the standard clock from the invoice.
> 
> Well.......it's a bit late, but informative, innit?


 

 Wow - very good to know! May have to order another one - fully decked out.


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> the x12 is a sweet spot for the i2s. i miss it atm (sold mine...bad idea). with a decent bridge, the i2s via hdmi is superlative. the wyred 4 sound dac 2 (used) is desirable because of its analog out plus the i2s, which they state is the best way to go re their dac. the new gustard x20 looks to offer 'more' of the x12 goodness... i'm kinda in the same boat atm, re i2s dac.


 

 How are you liking your LITE DAC60 with the new caps?  Still missing your X12? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I love the smell of melting flux and solder in the morning...it's....the smell of Victory!

  
 Edit - Had to get the quote right
 Cheers


----------



## DACLadder

Be cautious using the Hydra Z HDMI I2S with Audio GD products.   There have been at least two people who tried to pair the Hydra Z with the Master 7 DAC and it would not work.  Every Hydra Z jumper combination was sampled (output signal polarity) and still no go.  In both use cases the resulting audio levels were low and distorted.   If this is contrary to your experience let us know.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> Be cautious using the Hydra Z HDMI I2S with Audio GD products.   There have been at least two people who tried to pair the Hydra Z with the Master 7 DAC and it would not work.  Every Hydra Z jumper combination was sampled (output signal polarity) and still no go.  In both use cases the resulting audio levels were low and distorted.   If this is contrary to your experience let us know.


 

 Thanks - but don;t have any Audio Gd products - my DACs are a 'baby' APL NWO (a smaller version of the $20,000 beast) and a heavily modded LITE DAC 60.
  
 But thanks for the heads up!  More trouble with i2s...
  
 Funny reading the 6moons review of the incredible La Scalla II DAC I saw this picture - made me laugh.  All that kit and still using the SPDIF coax for the review of a $6,000 DAC.
  
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/aqua/1.html


----------



## rb2013

One cool thing about the Hydra is a BNC connector output.  Here is the reason why - and I learned this from John Kenny.
  
 They use of an RFI 20dB attenuator can great reduce jitter in the spdif cable and at the connector.
  
 So the attenuator goes on the BNC plug then a BNC to RCA spdif converter then the cable.
  
 Worth a try!
 http://www.johnkenny.biz/home-1/mk3-hiface
 http://www.americanradiosupply.com/20-db-bnc-fixed-coaxial-attenuator-50-ohm/?gclid=CjwKEAjw9dWuBRDFs9mHv-C9_FkSJADo58iMuulgsnorlH14rtwm5EC_pOd2cZXIPqKaep-x_i2iCRoCpLTw_wcB


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> Be cautious using the Hydra Z HDMI I2S with Audio GD products.   There have been at least two people who tried to pair the Hydra Z with the Master 7 DAC and it would not work.  Every Hydra Z jumper combination was sampled (output signal polarity) and still no go.  In both use cases the resulting audio levels were low and distorted.   If this is contrary to your experience let us know.


 
 Reading in the Hydra Z manual this was printed - could the reason for the issues with the M7 - so maybe the jumper settings were not correct:


> HYDRA Z special SETTINGS* For extended compatibility with the dacs available, there are some hardware settings that can be altered via the internal jumpers. In order to reach the jumpers, top cover must be removed. Please use appropriate screwdriver (cross type) to remove the 4 top screws. After you removed the top cover, you can find on the right of the board a set of jumpers noted J21….J26. For jumper settings, see below. Make sure that you have the latest firmware uploaded in your Hydra Z. Present settings are for firmware 1.06. If you have no sound or distorted sound over the I2S output, alter J22 or J24..26 setting. J21 – enables DSD to PCM conversion on all outputs except I2S J22 – I2S output masterclock (MCLK) frequency : open 45.1584/49.152 MHz, closed 22.5792/24.576 MHz J23 – WCLK BNC output setting (back view diagram “1”): open for WCLK output ; closed for MCLK output J24 – I2S output serial data polarity (SDATA) J25 – I2S output wordclock polarity (WCLK) J26 - I2S output bitclock polarity (BCLK)


 
  
 Since my DACs don't have i2s inputs  - nice to see DoP DSD128 on SPDIF:


> The native DSD stream is available over I2S output, while DoP is available over S/PDIF (RCA or BNC) and AES/EBU outputs. DSD over PCM (DoP) available rates are DSD64 and DSD128.


----------



## evillamer

Another cheap tweak:
  
 http://www.rtom.com/moongel.htm
  
 http://www.amazon.com/RTOM-Moongel-Damper-Pads-Original/dp/B00F2PKRJW
  
 This can be used to reduce motor vibration on drones, so it will also work for vibration isolation on audio gear:


----------



## m0reilly

rb2013 said:


> How are you liking your LITE DAC60 with the new caps?  Still missing your X12?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 x12...what x12???


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> x12...what x12???


 

 Lol!


----------



## genclaymore

I got my X12 Thursday from pollychen his factory workers took a week long break, my order wasn't even filled. Even pollychen thought it was til we both realize the order sheet was just sitting there. So a whole week of and a half wait but he made up for it with one day air when it was filled out.I glad it came and working and all, I would been mad if it came broken. For the balance connections do you use a AES/Ebu cable or a XLR Cable.
  
 I really glad i bought that modded U12 from you rb2013. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, now i see why quiet a few people have U12's with their x12's.


----------



## rb2013

genclaymore said:


> I got my X12 Thursday from pollychen his factory workers took a week long break, my order wasn't even filled. Even pollychen thought it was til we both realize the order sheet was just sitting there. So a whole week of and a half wait but he made up for it with one day air when it was filled out.I glad it came and working and all, I would been mad if it came broken. For the balance connections do you use a AES/Ebu cable or a XLR Cable.
> 
> I really glad i bought that modded U12 from you rb2013.
> 
> ...


 

 Great to see it's working good for you.  AES/EBU if you're going that way.  Why not try the i2s? - should not be any compatibility issues between U12 and X12.


----------



## genclaymore

I forgot to mention the AES would be for the X12 into the H10, I currently using I2s atm.


----------



## rb2013

genclaymore said:


> I forgot to mention the AES would be for the X12 into the H10, I currently using I2s atm.


 

 XLR - be sure the pinouts are the same.


----------



## genclaymore

The reason I asked is because I did buy some XLR cables from monoprice and the pinouts was the same but the volume was super low so I thought I bought the wrong cable. Or my H10 Dip pin  is labeled wrong as when the dip switch is up every thing is normal but when down its low volume. yet the label has unbalanced on the top. Unless I got it confused.


----------



## Arnotts

genclaymore said:


> The reason I asked is because I did buy some XLR cables from monoprice and the pinouts was the same but the volume was super low so I thought I bought the wrong cable. Or my H10 Dip pin  is labeled wrong as when the dip switch is up every thing is normal but when down its low volume. yet the label has unbalanced on the top. Unless I got it confused.


 

 Read carefully. I did the same thing. It says "UNBALANCED / BAL", meaning down is unbalanced, up is balanced.


----------



## genclaymore

They need to change the color of the / or bold it out or something to make it stand out. I didn't even notice  it. Because I just figured it out 5 min's ago.


----------



## rb2013

So upcoming USB Bridge face off: Hydra Z (Li ion power), Melodious MX-U8, Gustard U12, Audio Breeze U8 - the Hydra will be here today - the Breeze is blowing in from HK.
  
 Should be fun - will do a full write up on each - the Breeze will need some run time before evaluating.


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> So upcoming USB Bridge face off: Hydra Z (Li ion power), Melodious MX-U8, Gustard U12, Audio Breeze U8 - the Hydra will be here today - the Breeze is blowing in from HK.
> 
> Should be fun - will do a full write up on each - the Breeze will need some run time before evaluating.


 
 Sounds like serious fun to me!  If I was in your neighborhood, I'd be right over with the Tanly....guns a blazing for the shootout.


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> Sounds like serious fun to me!  If I was in your neighborhood, I'd be right over with the Tanly....guns a blazing for the shootout.


 

 Yes!  That would be great to add to the mix.


----------



## rb2013

BTW - Awesome communications from Audiobyte builder of the Hydra Z.
  
 Answered my question within 24 hours!  And I bought mine used.  Then replied back in minutes to confirm the cable and battery where good to go after I sent him links!
  
 These other guys suck!  Shenzen - forget about it if you speak English - still waiting to hear if I can buy a MX-U8 board separately (to replace the defective one they shipped to me) at my expense.  Melodious direct to designer  - forget it if you speak English.  And Audio Breeze - someone (doubt the designer) told me no they couldn't do the Crystek clocks (when apparently they can).  No mention of Talema transformer option (would have been nice to mention in their Ebay ad).  Buying a Tanly like negotiating a drug deal - with German middlemen. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 As for Taobao - my firewall/anti-virus won't even let me on (then there is the translation thing).  - 7 day return policy.  Hopefully Baidu for US will be better.
  
 Here is the cable and Li IOn battery I'll be using.

 Cool Battery - same energy density as Tesla.
  
 Can;t beat the price for this beast - 16,000mAh. 3.6A max output (6 times the min for the Hydra). $24 shipped!
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/131545309954?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 Cable:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/121506038429?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## m0reilly

that battery pack sure looks slick, and cheap too!


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> that battery pack sure looks slick, and cheap too!


 

 Well hooked the Hydra up with it's little switching wall wart tonight - very nice!  It's very smooth and detailed - so far I prefer my modded MX-U8 for it;s incisive quality.

 The 16,000mAh battery supply should be here in a week or so.  When Alex compared his very heavily modded MX-U8 it was better then the Hydra Z without the battery supply.  The performance jumped a significant amount running on non-AC power, and then improved further with larger 15600 mAh pack vs the 5400mAh one.  Eventually calling them a draw.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/767935/melodious-mx-u8-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/225#post_11837083
  
 Final verdict:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/767935/melodious-mx-u8-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/255#post_11849461


----------



## m0reilly

meh, the hydra is super no matter what, even on usb power. enjoy! yes, i also had xmos fever, but it passes


----------



## onlythat

"Buying a Tanly [is] like negotiating a drug deal - with German middlemen."

Or... you could go full-on German without the middlemen

http://stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> "Buying a Tanly [is] like negotiating a drug deal - with German middlemen."
> 
> Or... you could go full-on German without the middlemen
> 
> http://stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/


 

 Only a reference to a someone I was referred to in Germany who spoke Chinese and would act as a middleman in dealing with the Chinese designer.


----------



## onlythat

Ah gotcha! Well- it was an amusing statement anyway and you're written about in that review!


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> meh, the hydra is super no matter what, even on usb power. enjoy! yes, i also had xmos fever, but it passes


 

 Well last night after several hours running - as the clocks heated up and stabilized - the sound of the Hydra got better.
  
 The Z has a warmer presentation then my modded MX-U8 - very smooth - with a natural flow - very pleasing.  Making hours of listening fly by.  The bass is easily better defined and deeper then the MX-U8 at this point.  The MX-U8 still has this incisive perfection - just the right 'attack and decay' of the wave front - that makes it unique.  I love that presentation on the U8 - so lifelike.  Vocals are in the room present from these 5 ft tall Maggies.  The Z has much of that, but is more rounded on the edges.  In that regards the Z is like a super-U12.  The sound stage on the Z is excellent -the MX-U8 still better.
  
 They both go about their critical function from different design perspectives - but converge at an extraordinary level of performance.
  
 Now my system is very, very resolving (Maggie 1.6QR's in the main room) and has been in constant refinement for many years - I'm amazed at how different the sound character is between these USB Bridges!  It's like rolling tubes - the MX-U8 the incisive holographic HG Ruskies or Siemens CCa Grays and the Z like a warmer, softer Heerlen Philips.  Now that is why I love small signal tube equipment (my amps are all solid state class A - including my head amp).  That ability to slightly, and sometimes not so slightly, change things up.
 I'm thinking I'll keep both of these and switch back and forth as the mood strikes.  They are both really excellent DDCs.  An embarrassment of riches!


----------



## stuartmc

onlythat said:


> "Buying a Tanly [is] like negotiating a drug deal - with German middlemen."
> 
> Or... you could go full-on German without the middlemen
> 
> http://stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/




So many converters, so little time, lol. These Germans don't believe in I2S? What the puc?!

As for the Tanly, my transaction was as easy as scoring a bag of weed from the dude down the street. I dropped Tam a message on his taobao page (in English) and he responded within a day (again in English). Sent the funds via PayPal and had my Tanly here in the States in one week flat. There were no Germans involved. Ok, accept perhaps those who own DHL.


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> So many converters, so little time, lol. These Germans don't believe in I2S? What the puc?!
> 
> As for the Tanly, my transaction was as easy as scoring a bag of weed from the dude down the street. I dropped Tam a message on his taobao page (in English) and he responded within a day (again in English). Sent the funds via PayPal and had my Tanly here in the States in one week flat. There were no Germans involved. Ok, accept perhaps those who own DHL.


 

 LOL!  I guess you don't use Anti-virus/Firewall.  My Kaperesky threw up 5 red warning alerts when trying to buy on Taobao.  Is Tam the builder?  What kind of guarantee did he give?  How much was it with shipping?


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> LOL!  I guess you don't use Anti-virus/Firewall.  My Kaperesky threw up 5 red warning alerts when trying to buy on Taobao.  Is Tam the builder?  What kind of guarantee did he give?  How much was it with shipping?



Yes, the gentlemen I corresponded with was the builder. We didn't talk guarantees at all, but since he knew the product was to be reviewed and he checked out the masthead at Positive Feedback, I wasn't concerned. Most manufacturers are very accommodating when you buy the review sample.

I don't remember exactly what I paid, but I did receive some accommodation on price, since I agreed to pay for it up front. I find this to be par for the course when dealing with new companies in China that don't have a relationship with the western audio publications.


----------



## Wynnytsky

stuartmc said:


> So many converters, so little time, lol. These Germans don't believe in I2S? What the puc?!


 
  
 yes why don't those Germans do I2s?
 my experience with that BNC connection was pretty bad -- didn't make sense that the coax connections always sounded better.  JKs filter seemed to make my BNC connection sleepier.  But AES beats them both bringing a way more balanced sound top2bottom, and I suspect I2S could be a bit better than AES.
  
 Do I get the X20 that I know will connect perfectly to my U12 over I2S?
 Or do I start my R2R journey with the Yggdrasil and use U12 over AES (or the built in USB, whichever is better).
  
 I need a thread comparing the U12->I2S->X20 to the Schiit that costs twice as much.


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> "Buying a Tanly [is] like negotiating a drug deal - with German middlemen."
> 
> Or... you could go full-on German without the middlemen
> 
> http://stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/


 

 Thanks for the article link!  Just read it - very entertaining!
  


> Indeed, being that they are actual engineers or capable DIYers or both, many Head-Fiers are especially adept and knowledgeable about clock types, chip types, jitter and DIY modding of said converters. And it is by dint of this superiorly knowledgeable, technically advanced band of merry men that I came to know of and ultimately to purchase, the Gustard U12 XMOS USB converter.
> 
> Cheap, Chinese and cheerful at around $180 list, original Head-Fi poster rb2013 (probably not his real name) said it was the best of several top-flight converters he had tried, including well known and much pricier converters such as the fabled Audiophilleo 2, several of John Kenny’s, M2Tech Hiface Evo and the Musiland 3.0.


 





 
 PS Time to add a PUC to the mix - more after a little research...


----------



## onlythat

It's official: rb2013 you are now famous. Wear a disguise in public or risk being mobbed


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> It's official: rb2013 you are now famous. Wear a disguise in public or risk being mobbed


 

 Ha - I thought I already was from my 6922 17 tube shootout review and the 'Great Discoverer' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 of the best signal tube I have ever heard (and I have heard hundreds) - the NOW legendary and very rare 'HG' 6N23P Relfektor '75 Silver Shield Single Wire Getter Post!  'HG' as in my 'Holy Grail' tube.  Jude kindly awarded me a 'Contributor' status for that one.
  
 Just joking of course!  My mom - Mrs. Rb2013 will be so proud of me.


----------



## rb2013

So to start the discussion off on the PUC
  
 It looks to come several flavors - I guess the PUC 2 Lite is the one:
  
 Well, from looking at the website nothing stands out as extraordinary:
  


> Clocking:
> < 15 mUI peak +/- 10 ppm


 
  
 No mention of the:


> "This small unassuming box (or set thereof if you include super-ruby-femto atomic clock/battery power supply etc.) "


 
 That statement had my attention right away (more then the mention of Headfi, Gustard U12 or rb2013).  A ruby clocked DDC for under $500 - I was running for my wallet!
 And I do agree with everything the reviewer had to say about the U12 vs MX-U8 - including the poor communications and QC.
  
 But was this a joke on the ruby atomic clock...it looks like power comes from the USB port (<1000mA) - but the unit comes with a split USB cable.
 From the PUC website:


> There are no drivers to install, and since PUC is USB-powered, you won’t need a separate power supply.​


 
  
 So looks like USB power from the PC and a standard XO clock...is there a 'magic stone' in that little box?  What makes it so different?
  
 http://www.yellowtec.com/en/products-lp/puc.html
  
 Well now for the nudies:
 http://www.euphonia-audioforum.se/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t8273.html
  
 Now it'll take me a few days to do the translation - but here is the PUC2 porn:


 I love these guys!  Would definitely crank down a few Beck's with them!


----------



## stuartmc

wynnytsky said:


> Do I get the X20 that I know will connect perfectly to my U12 over I2S?
> Or do I start my R2R journey with the Yggdrasil and use U12 over AES (or the built in USB, whichever is better).
> 
> I need a thread comparing the U12->I2S->X20 to the Schiit that costs twice as much.




I seem to recall someone on the Gustard amps and dacs thread that had a Grungnir and thought the X12 spanked it. The Yggdrasil may be a different story, but then again, so is the X20.

I'm completely sold on the I2S interface and I won't use anything else at this point. I'm trying to get more information from Huang at Gustard about the switchable clock system, but on I2S, I'm thinking that it runs the onboard clocks as slaves to the I2S clock feed. Whatever is going on, I sure do like the sound.

I may be a heretic amongst the R2R fans, but I really haven't bought into it's inherent, in all cases, superiority. I have owned many, and still had a few in the closet to compare to the X12 and X20 - a Mietner Bidat and a Bel Canto - and I preferred the Gustard, particularly the X20. The alleged Sabre glare is completely gone with the X20 and the fine resolution is extraordinary. I'm thinking that Ess sabre done VERY right, may alleviate much, if not all, of the shortcomings that R2R fans talk about. It may be a matter of picking strengths. I'm a soundstage/imaging/, pace/dynamics kind of listener, so the X20 hits all my hot buttons. If you're more into tone, flow and that confusing catchall, musicality, you may find those hot buttons better served by an R2R Dac. Then again, maybe not. Lol.


----------



## stuartmc

Puc Porn! I bow sir, to your superior use of arousing alliteration.


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> I seem to recall someone on the Gustard amps and dacs thread that had a Grungnir and thought the X12 spanked it. The Yggdrasil may be a different story, but then again, so is the X20.
> 
> I'm completely sold on the I2S interface and I won't use anything else at this point. I'm trying to get more information from Huang at Gustard about the switchable clock system, but on I2S, I'm thinking that it runs the onboard clocks as slaves to the I2S clock feed. Whatever is going on, I sure do like the sound.
> 
> I may be a heretic amongst the R2R fans, but I really haven't bought into it's inherent, in all cases, superiority. I have owned many, and still had a few in the closet to compare to the X12 and X20 - a Mietner Bidat and a Bel Canto - and I preferred the Gustard, particularly the X20. The alleged Sabre glare is completely gone with the X20 and the fine resolution is extraordinary. I'm thinking that Ess sabre done VERY right, may alleviate much, if not all, of the shortcomings that R2R fans talk about. It may be a matter of picking strengths. I'm a soundstage/imaging/, pace/dynamics kind of listener, so the X20 hits all my hot buttons. If you're more into tone, flow and that confusing catchall, musicality, you may find those hot buttons better served by an R2R Dac. Then again, maybe not. Lol.


 
 Those are pretty old DACs - but even today the Mietner Bidat has a cult like following - they sell for good money.
  
 http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/own-one-of-the-worlds-best-dacs-the-meitner-bidat.29370/
 Many folks have commented on the ESS Sabre sounding flat and dry - but that maybe to some folks liking. 
  
 Some memebers here are engaged in the DAC60 PCM1704 mod project and have owned the X12 - and I guess from their comments the DAC60 with some new caps and tubes is better. Just sayn'
  
 But it is interesting that the most reknowned DAC designers like Zanden, MSB, Audio Note, TotalDAC, much prefer the R2R DAC over the Sigma Delta verity.
 The MSB is very big bucks - so is the Zanden.
  
 http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
  
  
 http://www.msbtech.com/support/dac4_vince.php?Page=../products/dac5home


> For conceptual purposes let's look at the simple R2R ladder diagram. Each bit has a certain voltage or “push” into the ladder. Each bit (pulsed voltage) is a small part of the original analog sine wave signal. The bits are sent into the rungs of the ladder (D0-D7), all bits blending their individual values into the resistor network. Each of these bits are driven into the resistor ladder on the individual rungs contributing its voltage or “push”. These individual bits with their short burst of voltage blend together in the network of resistors resulting in a new continuous voltage which is intended to be the exact copy of the original analog signal that is tapped off at the top and bottom of the ladder. To convert the digital bits to analog precisely, the value of each resistor has to be the exact correct ohm-value requiring very high precision in the manufacture of the ladder. The ladder DAC like the original Philips TDA 1541 was of limited accuracy and very expensive to make. Yet its design is potentially superior because the conversion is done through simple resistors (passive) with no processing. Because the ladder contains only passive resistors, the speed can be extremely high. Later when the cost of processing chips came down, The Delta Sigma DAC was introduced using a 1 bit method and a form of computer micro processing to decode the digital signal. The Delta sigma is most accurate at the top of its dynamic range but losing resolution at low signal levels (softer sounds). Because the Delta Sigma design converts by processing, extensive analog filtering is required. This additional analog filtering introduces its own set of inaccuracies like phase shift in the output signal.
> 
> MSB Sign Magnitude R2R DAC MSB has always known the ladder was a superior conversion method and introduced the world’s first discrete 24 bit Sign Magnitude R2R Ladder DAC. The term Sign Magnitude describes the special architecture we use that dramatically improves the sound of low level signals. Instead of always starting at the lower limit of the signal and adding voltage to reach the music signal, we start at the midpoint, or zero crossing, where music is quiet, and we either add or subtract voltage to get the required signal. Because this requires a much smaller addition or subtraction on average, it can be done much more accurately.


----------



## rb2013

More on the PUC2 Lite:
  
 http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul14/articles/yellowtec_puc2.htm
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/help-yellowtec-puc-19030/


> From my understanding the PUC2 and PUC2 Lite consume/require 800mA of current and that is the reason the double​USBis included. A typical​USBport, on a desktop or laptop, will typically supply only 500mA of current which is not sufficient, therefore the double cable is supplying the necessary current from both (two = 500mA + 500mA = 1000mA available)​USBports.​​ ​ Another possible solution, which is what I use, is to get a split cable where one side of the split feeds data from the PC and the other supplies power from a Linear Power Supply, with at least 800mA of current, to the feed the PUC. There are a number of cables of this type available.​


----------



## stuartmc

I'm really talking about inherent sound superiority. I'm quite familiar with the stated technical issues and the superiority of the less is more design of R2R as compared to Delta-sigma. I would guess that the dry and flat issue had more to do with the built in opamps as anything else. I find it interesting that those same terms are often used to describe solid state amps as opposed to tube amps. With a tubed output stage, I'm sure the Dac 60 is anything but dry and flat. I wish these dacs were fitted with I2S inputs. I'd be all over it if they were.

In my comparisons, the X20 exhibits greater soundstage width and depth than the X12. As to tonality, they are quite similar. The Gustard house sound, if you will, is warmer (less dry) than most and that trend continues with the X20. 

I may never get to listen to all the current best (although 15 years ago I nearly did), but I remain astounded by the sound quality of today's sub-$1000 dacs...and of course I think I'm safe to say that the X20 is breaking new ground here.


----------



## Wynnytsky

stuartmc said:


> I'm completely sold on the I2S interface and I won't use anything else at this point.


 
  
 That's actually my whole problem.  If my friend hadn't tried his U12+X12 via I2S then I'd go happily into R2R, and maybe get that Puc2 because they seam to be serious about AES and that's all the Yggdrasil has to work with.
  
 I'M VERY IMPRESSIONABLE RIGHT NOW
 I'm in a phase where I want to reward myself with a fresh direction, but in this rare occasion it's easier to spend the money than to choose what's best to spend on (the most shameful of first world problems).
  
 I don't doubt TotalDAC, MSB, etc are the best the industry has to offer, but they're 10x the price of what I'm using now, and I think it would be wiser for me to buy a new car.  Buying a new car is never a good investment.


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> I'm really talking about inherent sound superiority. I'm quite familiar with the stated technical issues and the superiority of the less is more design of R2R as compared to Delta-sigma. I would guess that the dry and flat issue had more to do with the built in opamps as anything else. I find it interesting that those same terms are often used to describe solid state amps as opposed to tube amps. With a tubed output stage, I'm sure the Dac 60 is anything but dry and flat. I wish these dacs were fitted with I2S inputs. I'd be all over it if they were.
> 
> In my comparisons, the X20 exhibits greater soundstage width and depth than the X12. As to tonality, they are quite similar. The Gustard house sound, if you will, is warmer (less dry) than most and that trend continues with the X20.
> 
> I may never get to listen to all the current best (although 15 years ago I nearly did), but I remain astounded by the sound quality of today's sub-$1000 dacs...and of course I think I'm safe to say that the X20 is breaking new ground here.


 

 Yes I agree with you - the on chip opamps are an issue even with today's multi segment S-D chips:
 http://funwithaudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/today-in-electronics-everything-is-made.html
  


> Today in electronics everything is made small, and as a consequence, compromises must be made to make everything fit in a small package, and run off one power rail.
> 
> Delta Sigma DACs all have internal op-amps to provide a voltage output.
> 
> ...


 
  
 In the world of solid state amps - of course they come in different varieties.  Most being Class A/B designs with inherent switching distortions.  In my experience the quality of the sound fro a true Class 'A' SS amp is much better.  But on initial listening the A/B is more impressive- as it's able to generate lot's of power.  The classic 'boom - sizzle' sound that impresses folks.  But over time the noise and phase distortion become irritating and very unpleasing.  For me the same is true for DACs for the most part. 
  
 But hey - I'm willing to give the X20 a listen - one of my local friends might try one.
 I agree we live in amazing audio times with incredible values and sounds to be had.


----------



## Wynnytsky

hmm USB3 is supposed to support 900ma
 isn't it scary to double up on dirty USB power like that?  For a third of the price the Gustard let's you jack into the wall where the final signature is very subject to the power cable used here (of all cables the jellyfish seems to be best for me).
  
 I've have tubes in my downstream electronics so I'm only looking for an honest source.  For that reason the M7 would not have been ideal for me (though it would surely be an upgrade for me).  So thank you for steering me away from that.
  
  
 Quote: 





rb2013 said:


> I agree we live in amazing audio times with incredible values and sounds to be had.


 
 do we ever!


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> That's actually my whole problem.  If my friend hadn't tried his U12+X12 via I2S then I'd go happily into R2R, and maybe get that Puc2 because they seam to be serious about AES and that's all the Yggdrasil has to work with.
> 
> I'M VERY IMPRESSIONABLE RIGHT NOW
> I'm in a phase where I want to reward myself with a fresh direction, but in this rare occasion it's easier to spend the money than to choose what's best to spend on (the most shameful of first world problems).
> ...


 

 I Agree - the MSB Diamond DAC V is like $25K - that would get you a decent car!  But there are some really great R2R DAC for far less money - but I thinkwe've moved to far from the DDC USb bridge discussion.  Checkout this thread for more on R2R DACs.
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/777597/vintage-current-r2r-dac-owners-discussion-insight-and-review-thread
  
 Good luck!


----------



## rb2013

More on the PUC2:
  
 I see the audio clocks - standard XO's.   
 Edit: Are those NDK's?
 Edit2:  No they are too large to be NDKs (see pci below with NDKs) - regular XOs.


  
 Looks like a 12Mhz XO for USB:

  
 Any clue on that little gold deal?
  
 Atmel processor for USB conversion
  
 Not seeing anything that stands out here - could it do a ReGen impedance matching trick?


----------



## Sonic Defender

Just an off-topic post. I had no problem installing the Melodius Audio supplied XMOS drivers for my MX-U8 under Windows 10. Went off without a hitch and no need for installing under compatibility mode.


----------



## rb2013

sonic defender said:


> Just an off-topic post. I had no problem installing the Melodius Audio supplied XMOS drivers for my MX-U8 under Windows 10. Went off without a hitch and no need for installing under compatibility mode.


 

 Good know on WIN10 install.  Post up if you try the later 2.26 or 3.0 drivers.


----------



## Sonic Defender

rb2013 said:


> Good know on WIN10 install.  Post up if you try the later 2.26 or 3.0 drivers.


 

 I will, but it would have been whatever driver downloaded from the vendors web site about 2 or 3 months back. Cheers.


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> Well last night after several hours running - as the clocks heated up and stabilized - the sound of the Hydra got better.
> 
> The Z has a warmer presentation then my modded MX-U8 - very smooth - with a natural flow - very pleasing.  Making hours of listening fly by.  The bass is easily better defined and deeper then the MX-U8 at this point.  The MX-U8 still has this incisive perfection - just the right 'attack and decay' of the wave front - that makes it unique.  I love that presentation on the U8 - so lifelike.  Vocals are in the room present from these 5 ft tall Maggies.  The Z has much of that, but is more rounded on the edges.  In that regards the Z is like a super-U12.  The sound stage on the Z is excellent -the MX-U8 still better.


 
 Nice!  I feel the same way about the Off Ramp 5 vs. the U12.   Using Master 7 DAC very smooth and liquid using the Off Ramp 5.  My first U12 with faulty USB interface sounded better than the 2nd U12 (working OK USB).  But the 2nd U12 with same Crystek oscillators produces more unwanted sibilance on voices and little more grain. Not a lot but noticeable difference between the two U12s modded exactly alike.  The 1st U12 sounded a lot closer to what the Off Ramp 5 has going on with clarity, bass, soundstage, and general precision.  Hard to beat. 
  
 The U12 is an amazing value though even with a few quirky things.  I have used it for many hours of listening and been very pleased.  The Off Ramp 5 costs close to $3K and I have about $260 in a modded U12 so the U12 easily wins the exceptional value award if you get one that works OK.  I heard good things about the Hydra Z as well.  Looks like a well designed PCB on the H Z so can believe performance would be high.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> Nice!  I feel the same way about the Off Ramp 5 vs. the U12.   Using Master 7 DAC very smooth and liquid using the Off Ramp 5.  My first U12 with faulty USB interface sounded better than the 2nd U12 (working OK USB).  But the 2nd U12 with same Crystek oscillators produces more unwanted sibilance on voices and little more grain. Not a lot but noticeable difference between the two U12s modded exactly alike.  The 1st U12 sounded a lot closer to what the Off Ramp 5 has going on with clarity, bass, soundstage, and general precision.  Hard to beat.
> 
> The U12 is an amazing value though even with a few quirky things.  I have used it for many hours of listening and been very pleased.  The Off Ramp 5 costs close to $3K and I have about $260 in a modded U12 so the U12 easily wins the exceptional value award if you get one that works OK.  I heard good things about the Hydra Z as well.  Looks like a well designed PCB on the H Z so can believe performance would be high.


 

 Thanks for the write up - The Off Ramp 5 is a sota unit like the BADA USB - both crazy expensive.  So the U12 sounded worse with the Crysteks?  Or was it just the 2nd one?  I think one MX-U8 sounds better then the other - the one that shuts down - or at least did before I added the heat sinks.  It played for a whole day with out losing lock - had to yank it - to put in the Z.  Hard to tell as it has the Nichicon HWs and the other the Nichicon FGs.
  
 I ordered some thermal glue/paste to permanently fix the heat sinks to the top of the LDO and XMOS.  The Zalman paste was to thin to hold.
  
 But that brings me back to the PUC 2 Lite review - the reviewer of course was using stock U12 and MX-U8.  They both improve with a simple PS filter cap swap - takes 15 minutes if you know how to handle a soldering iron.  The replacement caps are only a few dollars each.  So that's a big win.  Second is PS filtering - if you are comparing to any battery powered unit - these AC powered ones really should have some decent power filtering.  They both benefit from some simple Common Mode and Differential Mode​PS filtering.   At least they've worked for me (Art PB4X4 Pro - $85 each).
  
 So that brings me to the Li Ion battery -  which arrived today.  It needed a charge but had a chance to try it - so far very nice.  Used the Forza Twin Copper split cable -with seperate USB data and power leads.  Tonight I'll give it a go with a full charge - I also have a USB to 5VDC cable coming.  So I can try that route to see if it makes any difference.
  
 Also reading the CA stuff on the PUC 2 Lite  - they showed the recommended parts to convert the AES digital output (110ohm) to Spdif Coax (75 ohm) - will try that and the BNC with and w/o attenuator.  Many paths to explore.
  
 Audio Breeze should be here soon as well...


----------



## motberg

stuartmc said:


> So many converters, so little time, lol. These Germans don't believe in I2S? What the puc?!
> 
> As for the Tanly, my transaction was as easy as scoring a bag of weed from the dude down the street. I dropped Tam a message on his taobao page (in English) and he responded within a day (again in English). Sent the funds via PayPal and had my Tanly here in the States in one week flat. There were no Germans involved. Ok, accept perhaps those who own DHL.


 

 Exactly the same procedure for my Tanly, absolutely no problem, he has a GMail address on one of the websites.
 Mr. Tam has very good English, offered to modify my DDC HDMI i2S to fit with my Master 7, and offered a full refund if it did not work. It worked perfectly.
  
 Also, I have bought many items from Shenzhen Audio.. great communication from Stacy.. English no problem... fair prices...
  
 All my stuff was shipped to China, ....I did not even see any German-looking deliverymen.


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for the write up - The Off Ramp 5 is a sota unit like the BADA USB - both crazy expensive.  So the U12 sounded worse with the Crysteks?  Or was it just the 2nd one?  I think one MX-U8 sounds better then the other - the one that shuts down - or at least did before I added the heat sinks.  It played for a whole day with out losing lock - had to yank it - to put in the Z.  Hard to tell as it has the Nichicon HWs and the other the Nichicon FGs.


 
 The U12s sounded better with the Crysteks versus the default oscillators - small but noticeable difference.   For some reason U12 #1 sounds slightly better than #2 using the same socketed Crystek oscillators (one pair moved between the two U12s).  I do have more run time with #1 than #2.  The rework was easier/ better on #2 so go figure.
  
 LOL sounds like we both have two of the same USB interface and each has problems with one of them!  Oh, the woes of cheap electronics.


----------



## stuartmc

motberg said:


> Exactly the same procedure for my Tanly, absolutely no problem, he has a GMail address on one of the websites.
> Mr. Tam has very good English, offered to modify my DDC HDMI i2S to fit with my Master 7, and offered a full refund if it did not work. It worked perfectly.
> 
> Also, I have bought many items from Shenzhen Audio.. great communication from Stacy.. English no problem... fair prices...
> ...




Glad to hear your experience was like mine. I was very impressed with Mr. Tam and I'm hoping to get more information on his background and design philosophy for a thorough review. 

How has the Tanly been performing for you?


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> The U12s sounded better with the Crysteks versus the default oscillators - small but noticeable difference.   For some reason U12 #1 sounds slightly better than #2 using the same socketed Crystek oscillators (one pair moved between the two U12s).  I do have more run time with #1 than #2.  The rework was easier/ better on #2 so go figure.
> 
> LOL sounds like we both have two of the same USB interface and each has problems with one of them!  Oh, the woes of cheap electronics.


Yeah the trials and tribulations of computer audio. But the big payoff is what I'm hearing right now as I tap on my tablet, simply the best I have ever heard from my system. The Hydra Z with Lith Ion power is just the best - hands down. Nothing is close, the realism on the 1.6QR's is really something to behold. Bass gained another half octave lower. And just effortless musicality, flow and detail all there. Bringing on Jplay 6.0 took the sound up a another notch.

Now the Z is not 'cheap', but I pd $650 for it used, in like new condition. So for the results quite reasonable.


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Exactly the same procedure for my Tanly, absolutely no problem, he has a GMail address on one of the websites.
> Mr. Tam has very good English, offered to modify my DDC HDMI i2S to fit with my Master 7, and offered a full refund if it did not work. It worked perfectly.
> 
> Also, I have bought many items from Shenzhen Audio.. great communication from Stacy.. English no problem... fair prices...
> ...


I'm glad to see Mr Tam is a good guy. But I'm not in China or a reveiwer, so maybe you guys have an edge. If you could put up his contact information that would be helpful. I really love the design and the price is reasonable. Would love to try one, one day. The designs have similarities, same clocks, similar FPGA isolation. They do have their differences, I'm really liking what a high current Lith Ion battery is doing for the Z, not an option on the Tanly. But the XMOS may have advantages over the Hydra route, certainly more up-to-date drivers.

I didn't mean to criticize the Tanly, only express some fustration as a US, English speaking buyer - going this route. I have bought from Catty Link several times and have been always happy.


----------



## motberg

I notice you are using JPlay with the Hydra..
 That is actually the main reason I went with the Tanly, since XMOS seems always solid working with JPlay, and past reviews of the Hydra seemed not optimal. Are you able to use the Ultrastream engine? My JPlay 6.2 settings with the Tanly are: Ultrastream, DAC@20hz, Buffer@1sec., Clock@10.0ms
 I am using the original Tanly drivers... amazing micro-dynamics for elements within the sound stage.. not sure how much is due to the M7, the Regen, the PPA dual USB cable or the Tanly, but at least the Tanly lets it all through...
  
 This URL has Mr. Tam's email address and some info about the device.
  
 http://tanly-audio.blogspot.hk/
  
 I agree that is a nice feature to have the option to select the power source that fits best.... I am using a PPA battery pack on my OS SSD drive, and LPS on almost everything else ... even the cooling fans  .... (to prevent possible wal-warts noise..).
  
 The Hydra-Z here with the matching external PS is around 1500 USD the last I checked... a little steep for my budget.. you got a real bargain...
  
 Next on my list is probably new speakers.. I used to have Carver Amazing Platinum's so can appreciate the big panel presentation.. Maggies are probably out of the question over here.. but I got Kingsound close by...


----------



## ccschua

I am using 2 PPA OCXO on my CAS with MX-U8.
  
 I am really thinking of upgrading the U8 to crystek but saw the Pulsar. wonder whats the price for 22.5792Mhz and 24.576Mhz (can someone pm me please) and also understand its currently not available commercially.
  
 so that left me with crystek 957 with some headache of DIL14 fix. 
  
 In the end, I am thinking of waiting for Tanly (and end my upgrade itch)


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> I notice you are using JPlay with the Hydra..
> That is actually the main reason I went with the Tanly, since XMOS seems always solid working with JPlay, and past reviews of the Hydra seemed not optimal. Are you able to use the Ultrastream engine? My JPlay 6.2 settings with the Tanly are: Ultrastream, DAC@20hz, Buffer@1sec., Clock@10.0ms
> I am using the original Tanly drivers... amazing micro-dynamics for elements within the sound stage.. not sure how much is due to the M7, the Regen, the PPA dual USB cable or the Tanly, but at least the Tanly lets it all through...
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the link - I'm lost on Taobao.
  
 I setup JPLay 6.0 as Alternate Version (Intel CPU only), Optimize JPlay for single PC, Xtreme, DAC@1Hz, Trottle On, PC Buffer 2 sec.  ASIO JPLAY dither on. (I do sometimes switch to KS as well).  No issues at all.
  
 The Hydra Z is sounding excellent with the $24 Lith Ion 16000 mAh 5VDC battery (well at 5VDC really 10,600 mAh).  So the $500 ZPM power unit is not needed.   Now I have absolutely no worries that there is any power noise, transients, spikes, from the power feed.  That said will probably try a TeraDak linear PS just to see.
  
 So the price of the Hydra Z is approx $1000 - that is not cheap but if you can find one on used market they can be reasonably bought.  The Support from Audiobyte is excellent - just awaiting a long over do driver update.  The firmware update is super easy as well.
  
 As Darko points out in his review of the previous Hydra X+ - that all battery supplies are not the same - some can have switching noise as well.  So far this little high tech Li ion brick is sounding excellent.  
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/08/audiobyte-hydra-x-lipo-battery-powered-usb-converteraudiobyte-hydra-x-battery-powered-usb-converter/
  
 This one seems to have some type of voltage regulation built in.  And ample device power protection.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/331547668930?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 http://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/review-xiaomi-16000mah-mi-power-bank-review-get-it-if-you-need-charge-2-devices-fast


> “World-class chipset protection”​ The 16,000mAh Mi Power Bank also boasts of “nine layers of circuit protection”. In a nutshell, it supports protection from over-voltage (input and output), over-current (input and output), short circuit, over-charge/discharge, and temperature spikes. In addition, it has a reset function and is able to stop charging when it detects that the charger is inserted incorrectly. To be honest, such safety mechanisms are common in power banks, but the reason why Xiaomi is highlighting it on the product page is because it uses control and charging chips from U.S.-based Texas Instruments, which is a major global semiconductor design and manufacturing company, instead of from an unknown OEM. And don’t forget, the quality of the charging/discharging IC plays an important role when it comes to the conversion efficiency I’ve talked about above.​
> So, is Xiaomi telling the truth with regards to the components used? Looking at the previous 10,400mAh and 5,200mAh Mi Power Bank teardowns, it should be. But I just couldn’t resist taking apart the 16,000mAh version to get a confirmation.​
> The choice of charge and power path management IC continues to be the Texas Instruments BQ24195 in a 24-pin, 4 x 4mm-thin QFN package, the same one seen on the 10,400mAh model.​
> The other TI chip onboard is the TPS2513, a USB dedicated charging port (DCP) controller. In short, its job is to monitor the USB ports’ data line voltage, in order to identify the charging signals and provide the correct charge. This is the reason why the power bank is able to adjust its output level and work with a variety of smartphones and tablets. By the way, this controller is essentially the same as the TPS2514 seen on Xiaomi's other power banks, just that this one supports dual USB ports.​


 
  
 My office system has the Ref 3a Dulcet BE monitors (they have NO crossover) the best monitor I have owned by far (rolled through 6 or 7).   Perfect for my smaller office - the maggies need room to breath.  Mine are 3.5ft from the rear and side walls, my chair 6 ft back form the panels, with 5 ft behind me.  9ft ceilings. So the presentation is in the room - life sized - spooky real.  My previous speaker was the Ref 3a swiss made Royal Masters super monitors, before that the Talon/Rives Firebirds (400lbs each).
  
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> I am using 2 PPA OCXO on my CAS with MX-U8.
> 
> I am really thinking of upgrading the U8 to crystek but saw the Pulsar. wonder whats the price for 22.5792Mhz and 24.576Mhz (can someone pm me please) and also understand its currently not available commercially.
> 
> ...


 

 Love Pang's gear - I doubt with the OCXO card you need to worry about clocking on the U8.  Anyway - the Pulsars were covered a ways back - higher phase noise then the Crystek CCHD957.


----------



## rb2013

Just ordered up a TeraDak Linear 5VDC power supply - will upgrade the PS caps when it arrives.  I'll compare to the Li ion battery power on the Hydra Z.  Great having so many choices to run this baby on.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/181467993450?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## motberg

rb2013 said:


> Just ordered up a TeraDak Linear 5VDC power supply - will upgrade the PS caps when it arrives.  I'll compare to the Li ion battery power on the Hydra Z.  Great having so many choices to run this baby on.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181467993450?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 

 Very much looking forward to that comparison... I like batteries, but have read comments about less dynamics.. I am using a larger 9V TeraDak (I think the 2A version) on my Regen and it sounds great.
 I think all these DDC guys should consider to offer the external power supply option...
  
 If remember correctly, there was a mention a while ago that someone capable measured the model TeraDak you ordered and the 9V was OK - - but the 5V output was very very good.
  
 The Regen running in front of the Tanly cleaned things up to the point that I could use the most incisive/detailed JPlay settings (on my system that is Ultrastream) without fatigue... I think anyone considering any of these DDC's, or even considering a new DAC, should try one of these Regen things with some good PS...
  
 (Thanks for the speaker comments... I have a small room but miss that floor-to-ceiling cohesive presentation from panels... I will find something... )


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Very much looking forward to that comparison... I like batteries, but have read comments about less dynamics.. I am using a larger 9V TeraDak (I think the 2A version) on my Regen and it sounds great.
> I think all these DDC guys should consider to offer the external power supply option...
> 
> If remember correctly, there was a mention a while ago that someone capable measured the model TeraDak you ordered and the 9V was OK - - but the 5V output was very very good.
> ...


 

 Thanks for the info on that TeraDak I ordered - they seem to come in many varites.  This one has the torodial transformer - they also make one with an R-core.  I may give that one a try as well.  For $80 they are not expensive.
  
 On the Jplay - mine won't allow me to run Ultrastream - as it says Win 8 is needed.  I have Win 7 pro running on both machines. Won't do Win 8 or higher as they require the PC to be connected online - that I won't do for several reasons.  Since these are dedicated music servers - no other applications run on them. The biggest issue is virus threats and close behind is all the update pushes from Microsoft.  My old server had Vista and ran for 4 yrs without a crash or lockup.  Not one update!  My connected machine have all kinds of issues mostly associated with all the software update pushes (Java is horrible).


----------



## rb2013

The Hydra Z on this high power Lith ion battery pack is just outstanding! With a few days running is now more dynamic then the modded MXU8, just as incisive, with tremendous detail. The depth, width and focus of the sound field is simply captivating. The best part, just silky smooth musicality. Unlike any cd transport, or for that matter vinyl rig I have heard (and I had one near sota $30k analog rig some time ago - used it to digitize my entire LP collection at 32/176). This is it.

Just listened to Cat's Tea for the Tillerman. I've heard this CD and LP, a million times on many systems in the last few decades. Never sounded this good!

One note on the battery pack there are two USB ports - each has different controller chips. And one sounds definitely better then the other! Best is on the bottom.

Cheers!


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> BTW - Awesome communications from Audiobyte builder of the Hydra Z.
> 
> Answered my question within 24 hours!  And I bought mine used.  Then replied back in minutes to confirm the cable and battery where good to go after I sent him links!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Bob,
  
 Congrats on your Hydra-Z 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 XIAOMI powerbank are the best, I have several ( 5400 is the biggest I have ) and it almost outperforms my 16500 MrHandsfree powerbank!
  
  
 Can't wait your shootout 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Alex


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> The Hydra Z on this high power Lith ion battery pack is just outstanding! With a few days running is now more dynamic then the modded MXU8, just as incisive, with tremendous detail. The depth, width and focus of the sound field is simply captivating. The best part, just silky smooth musicality. Unlike any cd transport, or for that matter vinyl rig I have heard (and I had one near sota $30k analog rig some time ago - used it to digitize my entire LP collection at 32/176). This is it.
> 
> Just listened to Cat's Tea for the Tillerman. I've heard this CD and LP, a million times on many systems in the last few decades. Never sounded this good!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Bob,
  
 Nice to hear your impressions of Hydra-Z are as equal as mine, just wait till Hydra-Z has had 5  to 6 days burn-in time, then you finally will know how my modded MX-U8 sounds 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Cheers  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Alex


----------



## vvolant

hello everybody
  
 sorry to disturb this post.
 I am looking for the best drivers working with the melodious mx-u8
 I only found these http://pan.baidu.com/s/1kTrF9nL
 They are quite ols and don't offer any control.
  
 Thank you for your help guys


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Congrats on your Hydra-Z
> 
> ...


 
 For $25 shipped (arrived in a few days here in the US) - it's really hard to beat.  I was surprised at the SQ difference between the two USB plugs.  And only thought of trying it after reading that review of it and seeing different controller chips for each USB port. 
  


abartels said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Nice to hear your impressions of Hydra-Z are as equal as mine, just wait till Hydra-Z has had 5  to 6 days burn-in time, then you finally will know how my modded MX-U8 sounds
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you Alex for your excellent review of the Hydra Z and all the amazing mods you did on your MX-U8 - that is quite the unit now.   You are right the Hydra Z is getting better with each day.  Last night really floored me!  The depth to the sound field, the level of detail (now greater then any of the other DDCs), and most impressive the absolute easy and naturalness of the sound.  And the dynamics are outstanding as well - perfect balance in the 'attack' and 'decay' of the leading wave form.
  
 And that was with Redbook CD files - have not even tried my Hi Rez LP or SACD files yet!  I have the Audio Breeze on the way. And I ordered two separate linear PS for the Z - the TeraDak X1 (1amp to 5VDC) with toroidal transformer and just ordered the bigger 3amp to 5VDC TeraDak SB3 with an R-core.  Just to hear the difference with the XAIOMI which unlike other battery powered units in the past - increases the dynamics over the linear wall wart.  This battery puts our 2 amps - with a peak of 3+ amps - lot's of juice.


----------



## rb2013

vvolant said:


> hello everybody
> 
> sorry to disturb this post.
> I am looking for the best drivers working with the melodious mx-u8
> ...


 

 I think you can download the Oppo drivers from their website.
  
 This is the post with the link (page 3 post #35 - don't know if it's still active). http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/30#post_10940073
  
 Good luck!


----------



## vvolant

The link is still active but I cannot install the drivers. Same issue as with the thesycon drivers: the installation program keeps asking to turn on the units whereas it is already turned on!


----------



## Wynnytsky

Chodi warned me about not doing a full uninstall when juggling different versions of the XMOS driver.  Takes some serious scrubbing to recover from that.  Chodi was able to port (ie: hack) a very recent XMOS driver from Luckit to Gustard.  If anyone can prep you recent drivers for the Melodious then it would be him.  Strangely enough, it was the old Thesycon v1.61 ASIO drivers that sounded best on the Gustard U10.
  
 Tanly is going to email me when he as a 120v unit ready.
 Hopefully my X20U will arrive at the same time and they'll loop through my library together for 4 days.  This is an important step where you teach your chifi how to play western music, because when you first get them they're only good at playing eastern music.
  
 Just checked JRiver and it says I have 46days of music.  I guess it won't be looping.


----------



## abartels

vvolant said:


> The link is still active but I cannot install the drivers. Same issue as with the thesycon drivers: the installation program keeps asking to turn on the units whereas it is already turned on!


 
  
 Probably you try installing driver (which is NOT signed with a certificate) on windows 8 / 10 / server 2012. If so, disable driversigning as posted several times before it this thread.
 If using signed driver it should install without any problems (without disabling driver signing)


----------



## vvolant

I am using Windows XP. 
I have uninstalled the previous drivers before trying to install the new ones. I will try to install the new over the old ones and see if it works.


----------



## abartels

vvolant said:


> I am using Windows XP.
> I have uninstalled the previous drivers before trying to install the new ones. I will try to install the new over the old ones and see if it works.


 
 uninstall drivers, restart pc, install new drivers, restart pc


----------



## vvolant

That is what i did, except that i could not install the new drivers


----------



## Wynnytsky

I'm going guess to guess that your USB cable is worth more than your windows XP computer
 That's normal - it just means your an audiophile
  
 but it doesn't make it right!


----------



## rb2013

vvolant said:


> I am using Windows XP.
> I have uninstalled the previous drivers before trying to install the new ones. I will try to install the new over the old ones and see if it works.


 

 Install over the old ones!  The hand shake Melodius driver needs to be installed - the over written will give you the Theyscon control window and very cool 'Spy Tool'.  That's what works for me.


----------



## vvolant

I tried, same result: the setup program asks to connect the unit and i cannot go further. Perhaps it is possible to manually put the driver files in the right Windows directories. I ll try to check that.....


----------



## rb2013

vvolant said:


> I tried, same result: the setup program asks to connect the unit and i cannot go further. Perhaps it is possible to manually put the driver files in the right Windows directories. I ll try to check that.....


 

 Try installing the Melodious over the new drivers.  My handshake driver file is called Acrylic US1v2.19.0 - Summa Digital.  Try uninstalling everything - including all ASIO driver files.  Be sure to have the MX-U8 turned off - install the above first - turn on when asked.  Then install the later Thesycon driver package - it should work.  Don't have XP - but Win 7 pro - so can't help you further. Good Luck.


----------



## vvolant

It does not work. The mx u8 is not seen as connected when i try to install the 2.23 
Thank you very much for your help anyway


----------



## Sonic Defender

vvolant said:


> It does not work. The mx u8 is not seen as connected when i try to install the 2.23
> Thank you very much for your help anyway


 

 Why would you still be running XP? I can't be positive, but I suspect that is the problem.


----------



## m0reilly

...and what machine xp is on. xp is a bit outdated. if the machine supports usb.2, he could try a distro if not wanting to use win7 and above. if the machine will not support vista/win7, it may need to be replaced first. my hydra z does have xp drivers. i wonder if the xmos drivers need vista and above?


----------



## Maxx134

rb2013 said:


> I love the smell of melting flux and solder in the morning...it's....the smell of Victory!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hey I noticed that victory feeling myself!
Love to see the smoke rise as I complete a solder connection.





wynnytsky said:


> stuartmc said:
> 
> 
> > I'm completely sold on the I2S interface and I won't use anything else at this point.
> ...



Why is that "all the yggy has to work with"?

Since the yggy has other inputs types available, I am assuming you think that may be the best?


Also,
After reading this thread, am very interested to know how both of these compare:
Yellowtec PUC 2 vs Audiobyte Hydra Z 

So far I am reading both these are on an even higher level than the GUSTARD U12, which itself is an incredible value already...


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> ...and what machine xp is on. xp is a bit outdated. if the machine supports usb.2, he could try a distro if not wanting to use win7 and above. if the machine will not support vista/win7, it may need to be replaced first. my hydra z does have xp drivers. i wonder if the xmos drivers need vista and above?



I suspect with enough fiddling and reinstalls he may get it to work. But worth the effort with excellent new icore 3 boxs for a few hundred dollars.



maxx134 said:


> Hey I noticed that victory feeling myself!
> Love to see the smoke rise as I complete a solder connection.
> 
> Why is that "all the yggy has to work with"?
> ...


Well so far the Hydra Z with Li ion 16,000mAh battery is just blowing me away. Not a small step from the lightly modded U12, and a nice step ahead of the lightly modded MX-U8. There are a few new contenders coming...


----------



## rb2013

The Audio Breeze is still traveling the long road from China to me - who know's were it is at this point. It's been two weeks!
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/271948361421?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 But uncovered a new contestent - the DXIO Pro3a
  
 With the excellent NDK low phase noise clocks as standard.  5 VDC power and low noise power regulator. 
 Looks very promising for $168 from DIYinHK.  Currently out of stock.  But for those like myself who only need spdif this may be a killer bargain
 Spdif only output:
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/54-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wauto-power-switch.html




 NDK SD is the Red line, Low noise Crystek CCHD957 Blue, OXCO Green


----------



## Maxx134

rb2013 said:


> The Audio Breeze is still traveling the long road from China to me - who know's were it is at this point. It's been two weeks!
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/271948361421?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...




Seems this is similar to that Pro3a:

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=231221573686&alt=web 





Compare others:

Pro3a:




U8:




U12:



Audio Breeze:



HYDRA Z:





I dont see same oscilators(gold pieces)
On the Pro3a types & the Hydra Z.
Looks like something new.

Edit: your posted Pro3a has that low noise regulator,
While the ebay DIY version does not seem to have, but does have more led indicators.
Makes me wonder if there will be a finished version in future.

I like the one you posted better..
It seems latest design.


----------



## vvolant

Till now xp worked perfectly and i did not feel the need to change and spend time reconfiguring everything (i use this pc for audio but also video)
I think seven would run on my hw but i am tempted to upgrade to core i3. 
I have to check which Windows version zre supported by my lynx 2 card which i now use for 5.1 reproduction


----------



## Wynnytsky

vvolant said:


> Till now xp worked perfectly and i did not feel the need to change and spend time reconfiguring everything (i use this pc for audio but also video)
> I think seven would run on my hw but i am tempted to upgrade to core i3.
> I have to check which Windows version zre supported by my lynx 2 card which i now use for 5.1 reproduction


 
 friends don't let friends use xp
  
 I have the previous generation of this 
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856102092
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211950
  
 Unfortunately a decent wireless backlit keyboard with touchpad will run you between $60 and $100
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823126361
  
 If you can live w/o the backlighing you can save a couple bux with one of these (I go at least 5 of the black ones for the systems I setup)
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA6S02R41504
  
 Monitors have USB ports so if you plug the keyboards receiver into it you'll get better reception than using a USB port on the NUC which should be tucked out of site.


----------



## vvolant

It could be an idea thanks. Is this kind of mini computed noisy?
 I currently have a very silent case, you hardly can hear the processor fan and cannot here at all the hard drive.


----------



## Wynnytsky

maxx134 said:


> Why is that "all the yggy has to work with"?
> 
> Since the yggy has other inputs types available, I am assuming you think that may be the best?
> 
> ...


 
 So far my exposure to DACs has shown that half of the engineering surrounds the USB transport, where [for now] the XMOS and Amanero chips have earned their top positions.  If a DAC bundles it's own USB implementation that isn't one of those two then I'm suspicious (cutting costs?  not taking computer audio seriously?).  Do it right or don't do it at all (ie: exclude the USB input).  It's sad that I2S is torn between RJ45 and HDMI.  What are manufacturers to do - wait for a winner to emerge, or add inputs for both?  At least we have AES, and that doesn't suck.
  
 PUC2 is almost 3x the price of U12, and it doesn't have I2S
 Hydra is 6-9x the price of U12
  
 Even when I do upgrade past the U12 I will likely not sell it.  Only the U12 has a display to show you your sample rate.  This has been huge for me because my current DAC doesn't have this and there are many scenarios where using Win10+Dirac+JRiver will drop my sample rate to 44 [while playing HD stuff] and that screen is the final word on what I'm sending to the DAC.  Mad props to China.


----------



## Wynnytsky

vvolant said:


> It could be an idea thanks. Is this kind of mini computed noisy?
> I currently have a very silent case, you hardly can hear the processor fan and cannot here at all the hard drive.


 
 You're hardware is likely on par with the i3 NUC.  There were times I'd take my source with me and these things fit in your pants pocket (audio gatherings or connecting to a hotel room TV).  Mine however is not silent (which is why I tuck it as far away as possible) but I have the 22nm cpu and they're now using 14nm which will translate to way lower fan RPMs.
  
 The best audio computer would use a fanless full-atx psu like this one ...
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151097
 Combine that with an itx or mini-atx asus mobo in a small-ish aluminum case, with a $40+ aftermarket cpu cooler that won't need to exceed 1000rpm.
  
 If you have XP or Win7 then you can test to see if are due for a "cleaning" using this...
 http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml
 Currently Win8 and Win10 measure badly with this utility and the authors place the blame on their algorithm (but I wouldn't be so sure)
  
 If you are happy with your hardware you really should install a new OS (regardless of the results of the above test).
 You can leave XP on the current drive and add an SSD that you dual boot via selection in the mobo BIOS.  512mb 2.5" SSDs are now around $200.  I can't recommend Win10 over Win7 whole heartedly because so far the only performance increase I've seen was boot times, and that you get with any new OS because before all the updates and service packs start piling up.  For example my JRiver client instance takes *much* longer to discover/connect to JRiver server instance on my network, and my Dirac Processor takes twice as long to discover my audio playback devices.  In all fairness just about every product was designed for Win7 so these issues may vanish this year with product and OS updates.


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> Seems this is similar to that Pro3a:
> 
> http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=231221573686&alt=web
> 
> ...


 

 Ok so to bring you up to speed - this was covered some 50-60 pages ago. There are different Crystal clocks for the retiming of the audio signal.  The gold colored ones and really the relabeled silver ones in the Gustard - are OEM rebrands of the JYEC TXCO (temperture controlled crystal osc).  These are better then the old standard XO Fox type clocks.  The best TXCO clock (IMO) is made by Crystek and they have various models - the Hydra and Tanly use the CCHD-957.  Very close and in some ways better clocks from Japan are produced by NDK with again various models the NZ2520SD being the best.  Modders like Alex have modded the U12 and MX-U8 using these NDK clocks, as posted previously here (and see Alex's Melidous MX-U8 Thread).
  
 These clocks for audio purposes are measured in many ways - one of the most common specs given is for 'Phase Noise'.  Back many, many pages I gave the links to some engineering white papers discussing the various types of digital jitter and noises.  It also goes into the technical limits of test equipment to measure phase noise at low frequencies.  Another is freq stability (the TXCO beat the older XO here) with var in the +/- 1ppm range (excellent!)
 http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/Clock-Division-WP.pdf
  
  
 The clocks in the U12, MX-U8 and the Audio Breeze are all the JYEC type OEM with phase noise at
 1kHz of -125dB and 10kHz -128dB
  
 The NDK NZ2520SD TXCO
 1kHz -153dB and at 10kHz -158dB

 The Crystek CCHD957 (45.1584Mhz):
 1kHz -153dB and at 10kHz -163dB
  

 Now remember dB is a log function - so each -3dB is 10x better.  So we are talking orders of magnitude better phase noise with these better clocks.
  
  
  
 Now the DIYinHK board you show is a different one.
 That board is for i2s output and is designed to piggyback off a DACs 3.3VDC ps.  The DIXO Pro 3a is spdif only - both coax and optical.  It's a plug and go set-up with the ultra low noise regulator on board.
  
 It'll take a 5VDC feed - and I have had huge success feeding my Hydra Z with this Li Ion 16,000mHa battery (even the dynamics improved - bass added another 1/2 octave lower!).  So like the 5VD fed Hydra the DXIO would be able to use this battery as well.  I do have two different TeraDak linear power supplies coming - one with an R-core transformer and very heavy power filtering and linear regulation.  To use in comparison.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/331547668930?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (2amps - 3.6 amps peak!  This sucker has juice)  $24 - not bad.
  
 Here are the specs for the DIXO Pro 3a


> Feature:
> 1) Newest XMOS chip and uses 48MHz oscillator to asynchronous reclock usb audio data to SPDIF line, old XMOS uses only 13Mhz oscillator, over 4x better jitter rejection theoretically.
> 2) C0G AC coupling capacitor (All SPDIF output equipment requires AC coupling capacitor to avoid the isolated transformer saturated by DC bias component, if no grey color(C0G) capacitor is found in the PCB, that SPDIF equipment can be considered as low end)
> 3) Ultra low phase noise NDK NZ2520SD oscillator, thin film resistor and Murata isolated transformer (Be care the very common China made Pulse transformer in many 192khz SPDIF equipment is only capable of maximum 7Mbps(i.e. 96khz) according to the official datasheet.) Components are sourced from NDK and digikey directly (guarantee no fake product from China)
> ...


 
 One note:
The NDK ad on DIYinHK incorrectly states the NDK has "For easier comparsion(lower is better), we overlay the two phase noise graph at the same scale, under 25khz(human listenable range) nz2520sd(red line) is better, over 25khz(human unlistenable range) crystek 957 is better."
 
Unfortunately it seems these 'engineers' can't read a log scale.  The crossover in phase noise is at 2500Hz not 25000Hz.  2500Hz is definitely IN the human range of hearing. Ugg!


----------



## rb2013

vvolant said:


> It could be an idea thanks. Is this kind of mini computed noisy?
> I currently have a very silent case, you hardly can hear the processor fan and cannot here at all the hard drive.


 

 You might find the discussion on this thread I started helpful:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/754654/new-pc-music-server-build-project-all-ssd-no-fans


----------



## Maxx134

rb2013 said:


> maxx134 said:
> 
> 
> > Seems this is similar to that Pro3a:
> ...



Thank you so much for "bringing me up to speed" with this excellent post...
The DIXO Pro 3 I will try to get to test l & report back if any improvement with it.


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> Thank you so much for "bringing me up to speed" with this excellent post...
> The DIXO Pro 3 I will try to get to test l & report back if any improvement with it.


 

 Thanks!  I hope they get some more in soon too.


----------



## Maxx134

Anyone know about this Fancy unit:








On eBay: 

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=131496019200&alt=web


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> Anyone know about this Fancy unit:
> 
> http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=131496019200&alt=web


 
 Nothing special about this unit - generic OEM TXCO chinese clocks for audio - std XO for USB, Talema trans, XMOS - way too expensive!


----------



## Maxx134

Thanks for quick observation.
Question, do you know which type clocks used in the PUC2?
I am assuming it has TXCO or XO considering its model age being few years old.
Edit:
I do realize the design also play important role and probabaly why it is also well regarded unit.


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> Thanks for quick observation.
> Question, do you know which type clocks used in the PUC2?
> I am assuming it has TXCO or XO considering its model age being few years old.


 

 It looks like just plain XOs - nothing special.  So I'm wondering waht makes it sound special?  Don't have $500 to try right now.  Saving for a new HP amp!


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> It looks like just plain XOs - nothing special.  So I'm wondering waht makes it sound special?  Don't have $500 to try right now.  Saving for a new HP amp!


 
 Looks like an old design.
  
 The XMOS chip in this unit is the 1st gen, the current latest version  used in the Melodious and Tanly is the smaller BGA package, the curent chip has much higher clock speeds and increased processing power giving improved jitter rejection performance.
  
 The asking price puts it at the edge of the Tanly's cost and with the Tanly there are the Crystek clocks and galvanic isolation for the clocks from the USB interface.
  
 Notice also the Talema transformer is quite small, looks like the board was specified for a larger unit due to the presence of the footprint outline for a larger unit, would have like to have seen a bigger Talema transformer for the asking price.
  
 The main regulator does not have a heatsink, this leaves it open to potential overheating problems like some have been seeing with the Melodious. The transformer is putting out  9V AC so the regulator is dropping the difference as heat and a good proportion of it will go to heating up the board.
  
 The slowly ramping temperature is likely to affect the accuracy of the crystals/XO  a few inches away.


----------



## Maxx134

Wow excellent detailed obsevations!
Thank you both.


----------



## rb2013

Here's a photo of my Hydra Z I took yesterday
  
 Glad to see they use the higher freq Crystek CCHD957 clocks that have lower phase noise then the lower freq clocks. Same as the Tanly.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Wait, at least give it an obituary
  
Audio Studio Accurate
 born Aug 30th 8:22am
 died Aug 30th 5:13pm
 RIP
  
 cause of death: @rb2013 & @b0bb design inspection


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> Wait, at least give it an obituary
> 
> Audio Studio Accurate
> born Aug 30th 8:22am
> ...


 
 Funny!  Look at what you started when you emailed me about the U10 how many months ago!


----------



## Wynnytsky

you were like, "in other news, my Hydra-Z is looking dashing in red"
  
 I wanted to kick it while it was down (no I2S, no digits in display) but then I realized it wasn't breathing


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> you were like, "in other news, my Hydra-Z is looking dashing in red"
> 
> I wanted to kick it while it was down (no I2S, no digits in display) but then I realized it wasn't breathing


 

 You are a cold cruel man...


----------



## rb2013

The thing I love about the Hydra Z, besides the amazing sound, it has been rock solid. No unlocks, clicks, pops, just 24/7 running for days without issue. In fact, so stable, I can pause Foobar, unplug the USB power, replug the Lith ion battery, hit play and off it goes!!! Now that's impressive driver stability.


----------



## m0reilly

i have that battery pack you linked incoming. just want to see if it out-does the linear a/c psu...


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> i have that battery pack you linked incoming. just want to see if it out-does the linear a/c psu...


 

 I have the TeraDAKs coming the X1/X2 with the torodial transformer and the SB3 with the R-Core.
  
 I bought another battery to have on charge when the other is playing, although I used it for 4 days without a hint of low charge.
  
 I'll be interested in your take on the two with the Z.
  
 How's the DAC60 sounding?


----------



## m0reilly

it's taking its time this time, a bit fatiguing atm, but i remember feeling this way recently, and then one evening it all sounded wonderful (original cap burn in?). i'm at the point now of buying the jupiter copper foil upgrade for the maggies, or that nagging urge to just go british and pick up some ls50s. do you use any room treatments? i  seem to have 'restless ear' lately...


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> it's taking its time this time, a bit fatiguing atm, but i remember feeling this way recently, and then one evening it all sounded wonderful (original cap burn in?). i'm at the point now of buying the jupiter copper foil upgrade for the maggies, or that nagging urge to just go british and pick up some ls50s. do you use any room treatments? i  seem to have 'restless ear' lately...


 

 Yeah burnin is tough - the worst is the retro-grade at 50 hrs!
  
 I hear good things about those Jupiters!  I see parts connexion has the Duelunds on sale  - what size does the Maggie cross need?  I just use my half finish oils paintings in the back, and one of those tall Chinese fabric style lamps, my guitar case, etc..  Since mine are three ft out and approx 20 degree toe in they don't need much more then that.
  
 These things do look interesting...http://www.synergisticresearch.com/new-product-synergistic-research-hft-2-0-hft-x/
  
 I think you'll like the XIAOMI battery with the Hydra Z.
  
 I have these in my office - sweet, detailed, pure and decent bass for a mini monitor.  No crossover.

 What amp and cables are you running?


----------



## m0reilly

rb2013 said:


> Yeah burnin is tough - the worst is the retro-grade at 50 hrs!
> 
> I hear good things about those Jupiters!  I see parts connexion has the Duelunds on sale  - what size does the Maggie cross need?  I just use my half finish oils paintings in the back, and one of those tall Chinese fabric style lamps, my guitar case, etc..  Since mine are three ft out and approx 20 degree toe in they don't need much more then that.
> 
> ...


 
 6uf ($320 each!!!). i'll check the duelunds. mine are also 3' out with slight toe, but i have a 'loud' spot in the room between the maggies and couch, which goes away when i open a window, so some simple solution, that tapestry or two would be perfect.
 are those gizmos like the $700 wooden preamp nob?
 my old musical fidelity a3cr pre and power units, pro mogami cables, a couple silver conductor digital cables, 10 gauge fine strand  copper to maggies and 8 gauge to the dual 18" subs. i tried 15"s but the maggies ate them for lunch


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> The Belkin Pure AV is the best buck i ever spend, cost me about $500. It really does a very good job. I don't know the US models, they had a build-in battery.
> The Brand "Monster" has some good models which aren't that expensive like IsoTek and others.
> 
> Picture of Belkin PF50




Man thx abartels for this recommendation. Managed to find one in a hifi store and I am very happy. 
Admitedly my power is sh.it and it goes as low as 225V quite often. I was already using and isotrafo with voltage regulator but this Belkin thing is much better. The entire audiorange is tighter an more precise and the bass more powerful. And delayed/programable start/stop is a super bonus. 


P.S.
For the soundstage fans, if you want a deep soundstage and sharp imaging dont waste your money on 10K DACs. Just put a bunch of skyline diffusers between you speakers and say wow!  Even the cheap styrofoam ones I bought helped a LOT http://m.ebay.com/itm/262026731934.


P.S.2
I remember I did post about that PUC2 device some months ago. Seems to be quite good and popular in the pro world, saw this review at the time http://funwithaudio.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/usb-spdif-wars-audiophileo-vs-yellowtec.html
Sometimes available on ebay, just missed one last month while vacationing.


----------



## m0reilly

prot said:


> For the soundstage fans, if you want a deep soundstage and sharp imaging dont waste your money on 10K DACs. Just put a bunch of skyline diffusers between you speakers and say wow!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
ah dang, i want these but they don't mention shipping to us...


----------



## DeLuX

m0reilly said:


> ah dang, i want these but they don't mention shipping to us...




Edit


----------



## DeLuX

prot said:


> Man thx abartels for this recommendation. Managed to find one in a hifi store and I am very happy.
> Admitedly my power is sh.it and it goes as low as 225V quite often. I was already using and isotrafo with voltage regulator but this Belkin thing is much better. The entire audiorange is tighter an more precise and the bass more powerful. And delayed/programable start/stop is a super bonus.
> 
> 
> ...




Those look cool, could you show us how you set then up? Pic please


----------



## prot

delux said:


> Those look cool, could you show us how you set then up? Pic please




Just stick em on the wall . I'll see about a poc 2mrw. 
And I'm sure you can find such things outside the EU too just search for styrofoam acoustic or such. Or go for the more expensive wood variants..suposedly also much better acoustically.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Just stick em on the wall
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Or a staple gun and empty egg cartons


----------



## rb2013

Kidding aside I do like a little liveliness to the room.  The Maggies as planars are quite different to set-up then dynamic cone speaker.  Virtually no side, or top and bottom axis projection of sound.  So the placement has to be just right - with a fairly large room (tall ceilings help as well).  But most of all they are very detailed transparent, unforgiving speakers and need to fed a very clean source of power with ample head room.


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> 6uf ($320 each!!!). i'll check the duelunds. mine are also 3' out with slight toe, but i have a 'loud' spot in the room between the maggies and couch, which goes away when i open a window, so some simple solution, that tapestry or two would be perfect.
> are those gizmos like the $700 wooden preamp nob?
> my old musical fidelity a3cr pre and power units, pro mogami cables, a couple silver conductor digital cables, 10 gauge fine strand  copper to maggies and 8 gauge to the dual 18" subs. i tried 15"s but the maggies ate them for lunch


 

 I would check out the Tellurium Q speaker cables (like most of my systems I've intensively rolled many through it).
  
 I've great success matching the Ultra Black with the Maggies and the Black with the Ref 3a Dulcets.
  
 The regular TQ Blacks are quite reasonable - http://hifiheaven.net/shop/Tellurium-Q-Black-Speaker-Cables?language=en&currency=USD&gclid=CJ3K_eSq1McCFdKFfgod14MKdw
  
 And with proper setup I've done away with my Velodyne DD-15s.   May explore the Magge bass panels one day.  Just really don;t feel the need right now.  And I do listen to a good share of Alt, Emo and Rock


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> Or a staple gun and empty egg cartons :wink_face:



There's some pretty serious math behind those diffusors see http://www.oliverprime.com/prd/
The egg cartons thing is more of a funny legend.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> There's some pretty serious math behind those diffusors see http://www.oliverprime.com/prd/
> The egg cartons thing is more of a funny legend.


 

 You're right and they're cool - wife acceptance factor Zero.  At least with my wife.
  
 The Egg carton thing was a sorta joke.  These are kinda cool - but way to expense. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/shakti/hallograph.html


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> I bought another battery to have on charge when the other is playing, although I used it for 4 days without a hint of low charge.


 
  
 Just connect it to a simple timer switch, you can charge it at night, works like a charm


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *rb2013* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ....   It'll take a 5VDC feed - and I have had huge success feeding my Hydra Z with this Li Ion 16,000mHa battery (even the dynamics improved - bass added another 1/2 octave lower!).
> So like the 5VD fed Hydra the DXIO would be able to use this battery as well.  I do have two different TeraDak linear power supplies coming - one with an R-core transformer and very heavy power filtering and linear regulation ....


 
  
 Hi ! sorry if i missed it.
_*Which of the power solutions you have tested do you like best in the end ?*_
  
 Speaking of batteries i wonder if they can be left on recharging mode for long time safely.  Like 24/7.
 when i want to listen i could just switch off the charger to disconnect the ps from the mains.
 Thanks a lot for disclosing very interesting know-how.
 Regards,  gino


----------



## abartels

@ginetto61
  
  
 Quote:


abartels said:


> Just connect it to a simple timer switch, you can charge it at night, works like a charm


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> You're right and they're cool - wife acceptance factor Zero.  At least with my wife.
> 
> The Egg carton thing was a sorta joke.  These are kinda cool - but way to expense. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/shakti/hallograph.html




The WAF for the skyline diffusors should actually be pretty good and I got very positive comments from everyone... including hardcore categories like women, children and the retired 

That shakti thing indeed looks interesting .. in my book also looks like just another audioscam: overpriced, mumbo jumbo instead of explanations and enthusiastic reviews from people with no worries between their ears... especially the Feynman quote in that review was priceless


----------



## ginetto61

abartels said:


> Just connect it to a simple timer switch, you can charge it at night, works like a charm


 
  
 Hi ! thanks a lot !
 I see something on ebay.  Very good advice !
 However I still wonder about the improvements in sound
 Clearly a normal power supply is more convenient.
 Thanks again,  gino


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Just connect it to a simple timer switch, you can charge it at night, works like a charm


 
 Great idea- except my machines run 24/7 (class A amps always toastie adn ready to listen).  But really no big deal - with the super stable Hydra Z drivers - just pause foobar player change plug.  I'm using the excellent Forza Audio Works split cable - so I just go from USB on front of sever (during warmup) to battery when listening.  Takes 10 seconds.  Hit play - fantastic sounds!  But heck for a whopping $24 shipped - I thought why not an extra one!
  


ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! sorry if i missed it.
> _*Which of the power solutions you have tested do you like best in the end ?*_
> 
> Speaking of batteries i wonder if they can be left on recharging mode for long time safely.  Like 24/7.
> ...


 
  
 The TeraDak 30 just arrived more to follow.


prot said:


> The WAF for the skyline diffusors should actually be pretty good and I got very positive comments from everyone... including hardcore categories like women, children and the retired
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Not my wife (she already complains at the sight of a single wire! - "You're not turning our house into a recording studio" LOL! - but I've an ideal setup for my Maggies- don't need them.  Shakti diffusors are insanely priced. But a noted audio engineering friend of mine swears by them.  John Tucker at Exemplar Audio.


----------



## rb2013

Well here are the nudies of the SB3 TeraDak - very nicely built unit!   Especially for the money.  R-core transformer, lot's of filtering caps (but different caps then the ones pictured in the Ebay ad - don't recognize these 25V 1500uf gray ones),  looks like four LDO's Schottky Recitifers 2 - T3115's and 2- 321's, RFI/EMI filtering section built in.
  
 Funny now the issue of connecting it to the Z.  My one gripe with the Z - the darn DC plug is a very non-std 2.35mm barrel (+ on center), vs the much more common 2.5mm - like the cable that shipped with the TeraDak.  Been looking high and low for some type of adapter or in between cable.  Contacted seller on Ebay to see if he could get a nice cable made with a 2.35mm DC plug.  Why 2.35mm Audiobyte??? Why? I ordered a leaded cable and may just have to rewire the TeraDak with a 2.35mm lead.
  
 Second issue - and so glad I cracked this open before connecting - wired for 7.5VDC vs the 5VDC I asked for!  The unit will do both.  Would have likely fried my Z with 3amps of 7.5VDC  when 5VDC is required.  Oh Chinese sellers!
  
 Well an easy switch with the soldering iron - but for other's beware!


----------



## Luckbad

Has anyone heard both the Gustard U12 and Audio-GD DI-2014? I'm on the prowl for a good (but not OR5 level) USB->SPDIF converter. Thanks!


----------



## Incognito73

Did anyone from UK (or EU for the matter) ordered the U12? I'm thinking to replace my HiFace2, so any hint about reliable purchasing method is appreciated ... or if anyone is looking to sell, please let me know.


----------



## prot

incognito73 said:


> Did anyone from UK (or EU for the matter) ordered the U12? I'm thinking to replace my HiFace2, so any hint about reliable purchasing method is appreciated ... or if anyone is looking to sell, please let me know.




Check your PM


----------



## PATB

Does the Gustard U12 have a driver for the Windows Vista?


----------



## rb2013

patb said:


> Does the Gustard U12 have a driver for the Windows Vista?


 

 Same drivers as WIn7


----------



## Khragon

Guys,
  
 Can anyone take a screenshot of the U12 Windows Sound Playback menu for me?
 Does the U12 appears as Speakers?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> Not my wife (she already complains at the sight of a single wire! - "You're not turning our house into a recording studio" LOL! - but I've an ideal setup for my Maggies- don't need them.




Those panels can be easily sold as modern wall decor .. any color available.. just a tiny bit of salesmanship needed . 
And it's the type of acoustic treatment that can improve any room & any speaker. 

DeLuX, m0reilly here's your pic


----------



## rb2013

Well look at what the wind blew in...the Audio Breeze
  
 Interesting another DDC now delivering with a heat sink on the XMOS - hum...
  
 No drivers with the unit - so I have to beg the Ebay seller for one - or at least a link...oh Chinese audio...
 I have to give Gustard kudo for at least providing the basic driver on a mini-disc.  Of course with a larger company like Audiobyte - they have a real webpage in English with support pages including the manual, drivers and latest flash.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> salesmanship needed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## m0reilly

prot said:


> Those panels can be easily sold as modern wall decor .. any color available.. just a tiny bit of salesmanship needed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 i love it! man, i want those panels!


----------



## Khragon

*deleted* wrong thread.


----------



## prot

m0reilly said:


> i love it! man, i want those panels!




Go get em 
I'm using 8 pieces, ~60x60 cm each but 4x should be enough... especially if your speakers are not 3+ meters apart like mine. Also, if possible dont put a tv or any similar reflective surface in the middle. I'm gonna get rid of mine, just need a bit more "salesmanship"  


rb2013
Congrats on the new toy. Looks to me that you are pretty close to the "world's foremost DDC expert" title


----------



## DeLuX

prot said:


> Those panels can be easily sold as modern wall decor .. any color available.. just a tiny bit of salesmanship needed .
> And it's the type of acoustic treatment that can improve any room & any speaker.
> 
> DeLuX, m0reilly here's your pic




Wow looks really good!


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Go get em
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hey thanks for mentioning DDC - I'd thought this had turned into a home decor thread.


----------



## Khragon

khragon said:


> Guys,
> 
> Can anyone take a screenshot of the U12 Windows Sound Playback menu for me?
> Does the U12 appears as Speakers?
> ...


 
 Please help  I wanted to see if powerdvd would recognize it so I can use it with my movies using dolby headphone.


----------



## rb2013

khragon said:


> Please help  I wanted to see if powerdvd would recognize it so I can use it with my movies using dolby headphone.


 

 Which version of Windows that would help


----------



## rb2013

Ok so playing with the Audio Breeze with no drivers - I thought well let just unplug the MX-U8 and plug in the Breeze.  Just to see what would happen - on all these other DDCs - there is some  kind of handshake driver that has to be loaded.
  
 Well to my amazement  - not the Breeze - it worked!  Well at least KS worked.  I then tried the ASIO ST 2.0 2012 - worked as well (this is the limited control ASIO delivered with the Gustard U12.
  
 I then tried the M2Tech ASIO 3.0 - no go on that one.
  
 But reinstalled the Oppo ASIO 2.24 - works great and now have the full control panel.  So it looks very Thesycon driver friendly.
  
 The SQ is very good - much like the Gustard - warm and pleasing.  At $158 a real bargain.  Will order up some new caps for it - these green 16V are marked XPro - maybe they are special as the ad states.  I'll burnin the unit for 100 hrs and then do a A/B comparison to the Gustard before modding either.
  
 Now I understand the Breeze can be ordered with the better Talema transformer - I have one and it looks like a drop in replacement.  And it is rumored they will install Crystek clocks if you provide them to the builder.
  
 Well that might just be the hot ticket for around $220.
  
PS Edit - Found the stock one for $143 shipped to the US on Ali Express
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Extreme-Edition-XMOS-digital-interface-separate-power-perfect-match-ES9018-USB-to-Fiber-Coaxial/32233548854.html
  
 PS Edit- It looks like the one from Ali Express does not have I2S (at least no mention in their ad) - here is the Ebay one which does mention it (does DSD 256)  - $152 plus $19 for Shipping
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/271948361421?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 PS Edit On closer inspection the AliExpress one does not have nearly as good power filtering and as many linear regulators.


----------



## Wynnytsky

khragon said:


> Guys,
> 
> Can anyone take a screenshot of the U12 Windows Sound Playback menu for me?
> Does the U12 appears as Speakers?
> ...


 
  
 Here's what I see in my Win10 (clean install)


----------



## Khragon

Thanks Wynnytsky, look like it appeared as "Speakers", which I know works with PowerDVD.
  


 Quote:


rb2013 said:


> Which version of Windows that would help


 
 Windows 7


----------



## rb2013

Ok running the Breeze Audio XMOS DDC for a few hours and all I have to say is Wow!~  I feel easily beats the Gustard and I'm thinking better then the Melodious.
  
 So silky smoooth - but detailed - the best the tonal richness is awesome!  Rock solid so far no unlock or pops/clicks at all.
  
 Ordering another for the laboratory.
  
 Maybe those pannie 'Masters XPO' caps are really good - this thing is amazing I counted 2 large LM2941 LDO's, 5 medium sized regulators and another 8 small regulators!
  
 And this is with the BingZi transformer.
  
 Outstanding so far - let's see after 100-200 hrs.


----------



## Luckbad

rb2013 said:


> Ok running the Breeze Audio XMOS DDC for a few hours and all I have to say is Wow!~  I feel easily beats the Gustard and I'm thinking better then the Melodious.
> 
> So silky smoooth - but detailed - the best the tonal richness is awesome!  Rock solid so far no unlock or pops/clicks at all.
> 
> ...




Got a link? Didn't see it with a quick search.


----------



## rb2013

luckbad said:


> Got a link? Didn't see it with a quick search.


Check back a few posts.


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> Now I understand the Breeze can be ordered with the better Talema transformer - I have one and it looks like a drop in replacement.  And it is rumored they will install Crystek clocks if you provide them to the builder.


 
  
 On 20th August 2015, Mr.伍汝新 of Breeze Audio confirmed they will install Crystek clocks if customer provide them to the factory as follow:
  
riemanncheung(2015-08-20 15:20:31):

有關 '清風 DU-U8終極版 XMOS USB數字界面', 可否補錢換替 Crystek 晶振?
  

riemanncheung(2015-08-20 15:23:33):

我說的是 Crystek 晶振,
  

伍汝新:伟坚(2015-08-20 15:25:34):

这个我们没有哦，你可以买了寄过来帮你换减去差价
  

riemanncheung(2015-08-20 15:26:26):

減去差价多少?
  

伍汝新:伟坚(2015-08-20 15:31:29):

448元的减去10元即438元
  
  
  
  
  
  
Regards,
  
  
  
Riemann


----------



## abartels

Hi RB2013,
  
 Any progress on SQ Hydra-Z in combination with TeraDak psu?
  
 Breeze U8 looks nice btw
  
  
 Cheers    
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 Alex


----------



## MINORISUKE

Has anybody got an I2S pin assignment of Breeze Audio U8 yet?


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> On 20th August 2015, Mr.伍汝新 of Breeze Audio confirmed they will install Crystek clocks if customer provide them to the factory as follow:
> 
> riemanncheung(2015-08-20 15:20:31):
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Reimann - I ordered my second last night with the Talema (it was $203 including shipping to the US. You can contact doukmall at  nobsound@yeah.net). Do you have an email address for the factory?  I checked the Taobao site and only saw a phone number for *Contact: Zhang Weiliang QQ: 839368532  Weiliang Audio DIY  *http://world.taobao.com/item/520991006222.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.1414651174895.5.l9FoDJ&scm=1007.10146.6070.0&id=520991006222&pvid=0a563792-baf2-4d9c-a6a6-c0d30c560f8d
  


abartels said:


> Hi RB2013,
> 
> Any progress on sSQ Hydra-Z in combination with TeraDak psu?
> 
> ...


 
 Still waiting for the X1/X2 tordial transfer 1 amp TeraDak to arrive - this will be plug and play as it uses USB power ports.  The Rcore SBC30 came but need to rewire with
 a different 2.35mm plug.  From @m0reilly's comment on my LITE DAC60 mod project page - the Li ion battery is


> ...as i expected: low spark of well heeled...
> after running my last two dacs (omitting the gustard combo) off sla batteries, it was predictable. smooth, liquid, tube like results, slight drop in dynamics, inky black background. literally. so dark it may take some to get used to.


 


> because what i'm hearing is sooo smooooth, comparison w/psu results, i.e., higher sibilance/dynamic impact is less, depending on the mastering of what i'm listening to...


 
 So I'm super excited to hear with the TeraDak's since mine sound more dynamic with the battery vs USB and the supplied wall wart.


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> Has anybody got an I2S pin assignment of Breeze Audio U8 yet?


 

 BA got back to me lat night with the driver link - 2.26 no control window.  But sounded excellent.  I went back to 2.24 Oppo for the full control (need a little bal adjustment in my office system where it's playing).  I will contact the for the I2S pin assignments.
  
 BTW I will be selling one of my three MX-U8 later on the Headfi classified if anyone is interested.  It has upgraded Nichicon HW caps - otherwise stock.  PM me if interested.
  
 With 6 DDC and a 7th on the way - need to thin the heard a bit!


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> Thanks Reimann - I ordered my second last night with the Talema (it was $203 including shipping to the US. You can contact doukmall at  nobsound@yeah.net). Do you have an email address for the factory?


 
  
  
 I contacted Mr.伍汝新 of Breeze Audio twice via the following TaoBao link:
  
 http://world.taobao.com/item/520991006222.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.FLrMLq#detail
  
  
  
 Regards,
  
  
 Riemann


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> I contacted Mr.伍汝新 of Breeze Audio twice via the following TaoBao link:
> 
> http://world.taobao.com/item/520991006222.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.FLrMLq#detail
> 
> ...


 

 I tried that - but working with Google Chrome and it's translator - did not have much success.  I will try again with Doukmall on Ebay - Amy there does a good job with English.


----------



## rb2013

Sound update on the Breeze Audio - ran overnight - sounding very sweet this morning.  Needs to open up a bit -which I'm sure it will as the caps and clocks burnin.
 Ran all night without issue - ASIO 2.24 /JPlay 6.2 Ultra
  
 There is some thing to the sound of this unit - trying to put my finger on it.  Excellent micro-dynamics, rich natural tone, less etch then the MX-U8 - extremely musical.  Liking today as much as yesterday's preview.  Will need to put it under the microscope of my main system - those big Maggies don't lie...or make excuses...not very forgiving - very detailed and transparent.


----------



## Wynnytsky

Quote:


rb2013 said:


> With 6 DDC and a 7th on the way - need to thin the heard a bit!


 
 and he're I'm feeling excessive having a U12 and opting for the $70 USB option on the X20 while also jumping on Tanly's waiting list.
  
 IIRC your Lite DAC 60 only has spdif and toslink inputs, so your evaluating these DDCs solely with coax?
 Does that mean you'll be selling DDCs who's AES and I2S outputs you haven't yet evaluated?
  
 the source in my office is a sound card that sounds too good for me to ever consider replacing it with trickle-down goods from my main rig
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829271004
 I'm sure it helps that my computer is never shut down so the PCI card is always-on and warmed up.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> and he're I'm feeling excessive having a U12 and opting for the $70 USB option on the X20 while also jumping on Tanly's waiting list.
> 
> IIRC your Lite DAC 60 only has spdif and toslink inputs, so your evaluating these DDCs solely with coax?
> Does that mean you'll be selling DDCs who's AES and I2S outputs you haven't yet evaluated?
> ...


 

 Yes both my APL DAC in my main system the heavily modded LITE DAC60 both have coax spdif as the main connection.  I have not tried the I2S on either.  So they may differ there - but I don't see how - by a large degree.  AES is just another form of SPDIF - and with a 120ohm to 75ohm converter I will be testing that output - the BNC as well (on the Hydra - but not on the others).  It will take some time to do a through evaluation.
  
 I want to get a DIXO PRO3a with the phase noise NDK TXCO clocks and ultra low noise regulator as well for the comparison.   Any body own a PUC2 to send along for the ride?
  
 PS Just the thought of trying to get all these DDC's I2S's to work made my head hurt.


----------



## Wynnytsky

rb2013 said:


> AES is just another form of SPDIF - and with a 120ohm to 75ohm converter I will be testing that output
> ...
> Any body own a PUC2 to send along for the ride?


 
 I'm gonna create a kickstarter campaign to get rb2013 an I2S DAC
  
 My friend just got his PUC2 yesterday and it impressed the hell out of another friend who prefers the Gustard U10 over the U12.
 I'll get to hear it at the end of the week.
  
 So it would be safe to use a 110ohm XLR to 75ohm COAX adapter out of the PUC2 and into my DAC's coax input?
 I've done this often with analog interconnects, but would my DAC's coax input be able to cope with the voltage difference?
 If what you say is true about AES and COAX being the same, I would be really curious if could get coax to sound as good as AES by simply plugging my coax cable into the PUC2 (or X12's) AES output with the adapter.  I'm just nervous about trying it on my equipment.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> I'm gonna create a kickstarter campaign to get rb2013 an I2S DAC
> 
> My friend just got his PUC2 yesterday and it impressed the hell out of another friend who prefers the Gustard U10 over the U12.
> I'll get to hear it at the end of the week.
> ...


 

 Thanks for the I2S DAC offer - but I'm good.  More then good - don't feel the need to jump on that bandwagon.
  
  
 Don't trust me - check the CA posts on the PUC2 -  I think you'll want ot read post #8
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/help-yellowtec-puc-19030/
  
 AES and SPDIF
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF
  
 AES to SPDIF conversion (must use attenuation!)
 http://www.sonicsense.com/resourcecenter/reviews/reviews-and-tutorials/how-to-convert-between-spdif-and-aes-digital-audio

 Good Luck!


----------



## Benny-x

rb2013 said:


> Well look at what the wind blew in...the Audio Breeze
> 
> Interesting another DDC now delivering with a heat sink on the XMOS - hum...
> 
> ...


 
 And with Audiobyte you also get the most up to date drivers. Unfortunately with ones like the Gustard you only get v2.23 vs. 2.26/29/30, which are the most recent ones. With the Gustard you can also fiddle with the more recent drivers and use them anyway, but Audiobyte give you the most up to date ones anyways, so that's never an issue ;-P
  
 That's just my own personal gripe, also carried over from my Android cell phone. I hate it when companies use a certain software/firmware, but don't carry out ongoing support and updates for it. Unluckily with the Audiobyte the Thesycon drivers are so "baked in" or whatever that you can't even fiddle with other variants on your own and adapt them like you can with the U12. I've long been an Audiobyte DDC fan, but after reading about the I2s issues people had with this Hydra-Z in the Audio-gd M7 thread I got scared off from pulling the trigger. You're lucky that you go SPDIF, it leaves a lot of doors open for you. 
  
 As for your new Audio Breeze DDC, interesting note with the heatsunk XMOS chip. I may have to do this on my own, can't hurt.


----------



## rb2013

benny-x said:


> And with Audiobyte you also get the most up to date drivers. Unfortunately with ones like the Gustard you only get v2.23 vs. 2.26/29/30, which are the most recent ones. With the Gustard you can also fiddle with the more recent drivers and use them anyway, but Audiobyte give you the most up to date ones anyways, so that's never an issue ;-P
> 
> That's just my own personal gripe, also carried over from my Android cell phone. I hate it when companies use a certain software/firmware, but don't carry out ongoing support and updates for it. Unluckily with the Audiobyte the Thesycon drivers are so "baked in" or whatever that you can't even fiddle with other variants on your own and adapt them like you can with the U12. I've long been an Audiobyte DDC fan, but after reading about the I2s issues people had with this Hydra-Z in the Audio-gd M7 thread I got scared off from pulling the trigger. You're lucky that you go SPDIF, it leaves a lot of doors open for you.
> 
> As for your new Audio Breeze DDC, interesting note with the heatsunk XMOS chip. I may have to do this on my own, can't hurt.


 

 Well I believe the Hydra Z doesn't use a Theyscon driver, as there is no XMOS chip.  They implement a different solution using a SPARTAN-6 processor and their own custom built drivers.  I do agree they are easy to find on their website - but do need to be updated (lower latency for UltraStream in WIN 8 and WIN 10).
  
 I hope one day all the manufacturers of DACs and DDCs can agree on a I2S standard.  One cable pin layout to serve all - whether RJ or HDMI.  Got to hand it to Sony and Philips (the SP in SPDIF) they did at least get a true standard.
  
 I have also removed the 3M EMI/RFI from the top of all the XMOS processors on the DDCs - that thick shielding will trap heat in.  Just received some thermal paste/glue to affix heatsink to them as well.
  
 So far the Breeze is sounding amazing - and so is the Hydra Z.  Will begin the shootout in a few weeks, as soon as I can get a DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a.
  
 Cheers
  
 Hydra Z board


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> Well I believe the Hydra Z doesn't use a Theyscon driver, as there is no XMOS chip.  They implement a different solution using a SPARTAN-6 processor and their own custom built drivers.  I do agree they are easy to find on their website - but do need to be updated (lower latency for UltraStream in WIN 8 and WIN 10).
> 
> I hope one day all the manufacturers of DACs and DDCs can agree on a I2S standard.  One cable pin layout to serve all - whether RJ or HDMI.  Got to hand it to Sony and Philips (the SP in SPDIF) they did at least get a true standard.


 
 A universal standard for I2S would be great.  It definitely has an impact on my own personal choices.  I like the fact that the Chinese manufacturers seem to be moving in that direction and usually publish their pin layouts in their marketing material.  That was the case with the Tanly DDC and the Gustard X20 Dac.  I was able to examine the I2S pin assignments of each before purchase and was assured of compatibility. Every manufacturer should do this. I think it would rather effectively move the market towards a "defacto" standard.


----------



## Core32

Ok. New here as of today.
 I read through the first 1000 posts or so and decided to pull the trigger on a U12 via Amazon and it will be here tomorrow.
 I'll go back to reading the other 1400 posts but thought I would ask this first.  
 My question revolves around my DAC. I am using a TASCAM DA-3000.
 I've been using coaxial SPDIF out of my PC, running Daphile.
 Off the bat I will use PC -> USB -> U12 -> SPDIF -> DA-3000.
 The DA-3000 also has a SDIF-3/DSD-Raw interface via BNC connectors and that is the only way to play DSD via digital connection.
 All the other interfaces are limited up to PCM 192k/24bit.
 The DA-3000 can record and play DSD files via it's FLASH cards and lists the SDIF-3 interface as DSD compatible.
 I would like to try the I2S output from the U12 to connect to the SDIF-3 interface.
 SDIF-3 interface info on the web is pretty limited so I'm asking if anyone knows if the signal levels and timing are compatible?
 Or if there is a conversion example out there.
 I'm handy enough to make an adapter from HDMI to BNC if it is, so I'm not worried about that part of the job.
 Thanks for any help!


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> A universal standard for I2S would be great.  It definitely has an impact on my own personal choices.  I like the fact that the Chinese manufacturers seem to be moving in that direction and usually publish their pin layouts in their marketing material.  That was the case with the Tanly DDC and the Gustard X20 Dac.  I was able to examine the I2S pin assignments of each before purchase and was assured of compatibility. Every manufacturer should do this. I think it would rather effectively move the market towards a "defacto" standard.


 
 Totally agree - still waiting to get the Breeze Audio pin assignments - I did get a reply back - but they thought I wanted to buy a cable  - so I asked again in a different manner and provided the Gustard pin chart as an example.
  


core32 said:


> Ok. New here as of today.
> I read through the first 1000 posts or so and decided to pull the trigger on a U12 via Amazon and it will be here tomorrow.
> I'll go back to reading the other 1400 posts but thought I would ask this first.
> My question revolves around my DAC. I am using a TASCAM DA-3000.
> ...


 
 Wow you read 1,000 of on this thread - kudos to your efforts! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I know that isn't easy.
  
 Well to answer your question - I really don't know.  But would guess it's highly doubt full a SPDIF-3 (BNC) would just port over the I2S.  It's hard enough to get I2S to I2S to work.


----------



## rb2013

Well I ordered this attenuator kit with 4 different levels and a Canare XLR to BNC adapter (without the 10db attenuator), and finally a BNC to SPDIF RCA adapter.
  
  
 So I'll experiment with the BNC output on the Hydra with moderate attenuation - ala John Kenny's recommendation.  Also AES with 10db and 20db attenuation to BNC to SPDIF RCA.  Just to see if they improve things at all.  Cheap enough and worth a try.
  
 BTW - to those not familiar with John Kenny - he is an audio engineer who built custom boxes - modding the original M2Tech Hiface.  One of the first really great USB 2.0 Async interfaces.  He found that many SPDIF USB bridges had to high an output  - exceeding the .5 amp limit and were overloading the SPDIF receivers on many DACs.  His solution was to use a BNC connector (which he built in standard on his boxes) allowing the easy use of common BNC attenuators - then BNC to RCA for normal SPDIF cable.  The attenuation reduced the signal output and eliminated the overloading.
  
 I will try the 3db and 6db attenuators on the BNC connection (which does not need impedance transformer - it's already 75ohms) just to see.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/141746112599
  
  
 http://www.prostudioconnection.com/Canare-BCJ-XJ-TRB-Digital-Audio-Format-Converter-B-p/231197212241.htm
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/400973892169


----------



## Wynnytsky

rb2013 said:


> Don't trust me - check the CA posts on the PUC2 -  I think you'll want ot read post #8
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/help-yellowtec-puc-19030/
> 
> AES and SPDIF
> ...


 
  
 Thank you those links are exactly what I needed to see.  Two of my friends got the puc2.  It throws a spread the size of the Gus U10 but objects retain much of the structure/definition you get from the Gus U12.  That's the impression I got from listening on a friend's system.  For the next several days I'll be A/B'ing on my own rig so I'll form a stronger opinion.
  
 Before unplugging yesterday I switched over the the U12's I2S and hell yeah, I was hit with so much more information.  When I was comparing DDC units over AES I was comparing sounds (signatures) and when I engaged I2S it was like playing different content.  This is the kind of difference I was hoping to experience when I started hoarding high sample rate FLACs years ago, and yet much of that content has been a struggle for me to discern on my system.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> Thank you those links are exactly what I needed to see.  Two of my friends got the puc2.  It throws a spread the size of the Gus U10 but objects retain much of the structure/definition you get from the Gus U12.  That's the impression I got from listening on a friend's system.  For the next several days I'll be A/B'ing on my own rig so I'll form a stronger opinion.
> 
> Before unplugging yesterday I switched over the the U12's I2S and hell yeah, I was hit with so much more information.  When I was comparing DDC units over AES I was comparing sounds (signatures) and when I engaged I2S it was like playing different content.  This is the kind of difference I was hoping to experience when I started hoarding high sample rate FLACs years ago, and yet much of that content has been a struggle for me to discern on my system.


 

 Great to hear!  I have had similar success in switching to better SPDIF coax cables.
  
 90% of those super high res FLAC files are just upsampled PCMs or DSDs.  I do upsampling on the fly with SoX in Foobar - the improvement is quite noticeable.  I compare upsampled rdbook to the high res files I make myself (LPs on a top analog rig digitalized at 32bit 176K) to the same file burnt using EAC from CD (no FLAC's - strught WAV files).  The Redbook's come much closer to the native Hi Res.  Much better then straight 16/44 Wav. And my better DAC the APL babyNWO - upsamples the files to 211K itself - yet the realtime SoX upsampling still sound better (196, Best,0% Phase Response, 95% Passband).
  
 Good luck!


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> Has anybody got an I2S pin assignment of Breeze Audio U8 yet?


 

 Hi - received it yesterday.  It is sounding better and better each day of burnin - another week to go.


----------



## MINORISUKE

rb2013 said:


> Hi - received it yesterday.  It is sounding better and better each day of burnin - another week to go.


 
 Thank you.  There is no DSDOE (PCM/DSD switch signal: DSD +3.3V/PCM 0V), which is needed at least for my DAC.


----------



## rb2013

So the smaller TeraDak power supply arrived yesterday - with a 5VDC to feed the Hydra Z.  I guess labeled the U-9 on the case - but called the X1 in the Ebay ad
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  Nicely built little unit:

 So how did it sound on the Hydra Z?  Well I was very impressed!  The best sound yet - better IMO then the Li Ion battery.  Even cold out of the box it was more dynamic.  Going from the USB PC power to the U-9 - the same half octave lower of better defined bass became immediately apparent - just like going to the Li ion.  But what I was most surprised was the increase in the incisiveness of the sound.  Still supremely musical and easy to listen to  - but now with more vigor.
  
 So I took the stock power cord and plugged it into the Art Audio PX4 Pro power filter.  Even better!  More dynamic - wider sound stage.  Finally I disconnected the stock power cord and used the inexpensive Eptiome Silver power cord I had handy - another nice improvement in sound.
  
 So to compare  - the Z with Li ion is much like the Gustard U12 - soft, delicate, warm, forgiving.  With the U-9 TeraDak, the Z was also warm but with a more incisive quality - like the Melodious - just way smoother.  Using the Eptiome Silver into the Audio Art - Wow!  Just perfect - the best of each - but in spades.  Coupled with a flow and ease that had me listening all night.  The best, by far, my main system has ever sounded.  It continues to amaze me how these DDC's make such a difference.
 The sound stage widened and deepened with the Z/U-9 combination as well - just every parameter improved - nothing detracted.  Now I would say for very poor recordings this combination would maybe reveal those recording weaknesses - so a simple 5 sec switch to the Li ion would be in order.  It is a softer, more rounded and forgiving presentation.  As to comparing to the MX-U8 - where the Melodious's incisiveness is like a spot light on center stage - the Z/U-9 has the entire stage lit - with a row of spotlights.  The musicians and especially singers having an inner lit quality that I love to hear - so lifelike on the big Maggie panels.
  
 Now - that leaves the bigger DC-30W - I'm super excited as to how this bigger R-Core fed TeraDak will sound.  The cable to rewire should be here soon. 
  
 The U-9 needs some time for burnin then some easy modding - like cap upgrades.

 Still can't find where these grays come from - probably OEM Chinese.  Std 25V 1500uf's so will replace with Nichicons.
  
 Side by side of the two TeraDaks

  
 Beautifully made units - love these claim shell cases - make modding a breeze:


----------



## DACLadder

For those interested I ran the data provided by Crystek CCHD-957 phase noise charts (link below) through a data filter program that outputs time domain jitter.   Very good indeed.
http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/clock/cchd-957.pdf
  
 Jitter calculation for CCHD-975  45.1584Mhz
 Phase Jitter:                 341 fs 
 Period Jitter:                0.22 ps 
 Cycle-to-Cycle Jitters:   0.38 ps
  
 Jitter calculation for CCHD-975  49.152Mhz
 Phase Jitter:                 229 fs 
 Period Jitter:                0.11 ps 
 Cycle-to-Cycle Jitters:   0.19 ps


----------



## Core32

Received the new Gustard today, no thanks to UPS leaving it at the wrong front door!  
 Looks good, feels solid and sounds excellent even with no burn-in.
 One thing appears awry and I believe I can fix it.
 The AC power input cable has to be pushed in tight and even then when wiggled the power flickers on and off.
 I think the AC input connector probably has a loose solder joint. I am good with my soldering iron so I want to check it out.
 Looking at the box, before I bugger up the screws, I'm wondering whether the front panel or rear panel (or both) is the where to start?
 Any help will be appreciated.
  
 Edit: Never mind. Turns out the fairly cheap power cord that came with it is just that.
         Using a much better cable and the connection is rock solid.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> For those interested I ran the data provided by CCHD-957 phase noise charts (link below) provided by Crystek through a filter that outputs time domain jitter.   Very good indeed.
> http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/clock/cchd-957.pdf
> 
> Jitter calculation for CCHD-975  45.1584Mhz
> ...


Nice, wonder how the NDK SD's and Jyec TXCO's compare.


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> Nice, wonder how the NDK SD's and Jyec TXCO's compare.


 

 If you have any phase noise charts then it takes about 5 minutes to enter the data and spit out the results.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> If you have any phase noise charts then it takes about 5 minutes to enter the data and spit out the results.


 

 The JYEC TXCO (same as Gustard and Melodious) don't have a chart but quote
  
 -125dB at 1KHz
  
 Here is the NDK chart for the SD's (red)


----------



## DACLadder

I'm back to using the modified Gustard U12 after employing the Off Ramp 5 for several weeks with the AGD Master 7 DAC.   The Off Ramp 5 is a fine USB converter but the modified Gustard U12 is very good sounding as well.   I have to be careful with comparisons and through trial and error have to let component changes settle in and my ears recalibrate.   But lots of bass slam with the U12 which in my experience with M7 means jitter is low.
  
 It's good to go back and re-examine what you liked and did not like in the past.  I have plenty of time as my Schiit Ygggdrasil has been returned back to Schitt for the 2nd time.   Long story short is that I tried to sell the Yggy as I felt it did not mesh well with my system.  The buyer returned the Yggy stating he felt it did not sound as good as what he heard at a Head Fi can fair.   So sent the Yggy to Schiit and they found nothing wrong and shipped it back.  The Yggy was damage during shipping as I can hear something heavy rattling around inside the chassis.  Most likely a transformer or choke broke loose and wreaking havoc as the box is handled.   So last week back it went to Schiit.   5 months and still no satisfaction with the Yggy but Schiit is very patient with my requests.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> I'm back to using the modified Gustard U12 after employing the Off Ramp 5 for several weeks with the AGD Master 7 DAC.   The Off Ramp 5 is a fine USB converter but the modified Gustard U12 is very good sounding as well.   I have to be careful with comparisons and through trial and error have to let component changes settle in and my ears recalibrate.   But lots of bass slam with the U12 which in my experience with M7 means jitter is low.
> 
> It's good to go back and re-examine what you liked and did not like in the past.  I have plenty of time as my Schiit Ygggdrasil has been returned back to Schitt for the 2nd time.   Long story short is that I tried to sell the Yggy as I felt it did not mesh well with my system.  The buyer returned the Yggy stating he felt it did not sound as good as what he heard at a Head Fi can fair.   So sent the Yggy to Schiit and they found nothing wrong and shipped it back.  The Yggy was damage during shipping as I can hear something heavy rattling around inside the chassis.  Most likely a transformer or choke broke loose and wreaking havoc as the box is handled.   So last week back it went to Schiit.   5 months and still no satisfaction with the Yggy but Schiit is very patient with my requests.


 

 Good to hear the modded U12 competed well against the excellent OR5.  Are you running I2S?
  
 Sorry to hear about the Yggy - frustrating.  Sounds like your buyer just wanted a free demo.


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> Good to hear the modded U12 competed well against the excellent OR5.  Are you running I2S?
> 
> Sorry to hear about the Yggy - frustrating.  Sounds like your buyer just wanted a free demo.


 
 Yes I am running HDMI I2S is both cases.
  
 Yes, that is what I thought about with the buyer but I did not warm up to the sound of the Yggy as I thought is sounded thin with not much bass.  It is very clear in the vocals and soundstage is good.  I asked the buyer a few days ago and he has a factory fresh Yggy and seems to like it better but audio memory is very short term.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> Yes I am running HDMI I2S is both cases.
> 
> Yes, that is what I thought about with the buyer but I did not warm up to the sound of the Yggy as I thought is sounded thin with not much bass.  It is very clear in the vocals and soundstage is good.  I asked the buyer a few days ago and he has a factory fresh Yggy and seems to like it better but audio memory is very short term.


 

 I see - well I'd try an R2R Dac.  Excellent bass and rich natural tone


----------



## DACLadder

For the red line of the graph I get the following for the 22.5792Mhz NDK oscillators.  I had to guess at the exact number to enter but hopefully within dB for each of the seven steps from 1Hz to 1Mhz.
  
 NDK 22.5792Mhz (red line from the chart above) 
 The actual performance may be different and does not consider the noise floor of an actual measurement environment.
 Phase Jitter:                 476 fs 
 Period Jitter:                 0.66 ps 
 Cycle-to-Cycle Jitters:  1.15 ps
  
 The phase noise to jitter tool can be found here...
 https://www.silabs.com/support/Pages/phase-noise-jitter-calculator.aspx


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> For the red line of the graph I get the following for the 22.5792Mhz NDK oscillators.  I had to guess at the exact number to enter but hopefully within dB for each of the seven steps from 1Hz to 1Mhz.
> 
> NDK 22.5792Mhz (red line from the chart above)
> The actual performance may be different and does not consider the noise floor of an actual measurement environment.
> ...


 

 So it looks like the Crystek is better then the NDKs  476 fs vs 341fs (although they are different clock freq - the 22.5792 CCHD-957 is a little worse then the higher clock 957's)


----------



## Wynnytsky

Sat down to compare the PUC2 lite vs U12 over AES and it was over before I knew it.
 PUC2 was neither broken in or warmed up (perhaps because it uses USB for power, which is already warmed up?).  You could read about it for hours but one song is worth a billion bits.  In those few moments you realize what the U12 was doing wrong and you can't un-hear that.  Next time you engage the U12 you will be immediately and painfully aware.
  
 I know 3 people who wouldn't upgrade to the U12 from the U10, and hearing how the PUC2 is closer to the U10 I see why.  2 of those U10 owners upgraded to the PUC2 and one of the U12 owners upgraded to the PUC2.  The former U10 owners are using PUC2 with an AES adapter.
  
 I like to see patterns in things.  Assuming this PUC2 doesn't use either XMOS nor Amanero, that pucs my schiit up.  I wonder if my iFi iUSB is adding more benefit to the PUC2 than it did on the Gustard devices that drew from the wall.
  
 The good news is that I could experience this improvement through an old Sabre DAC.  Another victory for separates!
  
 If Tanly doesn't contact me this month I have no problem mating the X20U to a PUC2 Lite.  Would be nice @rb2013 got his hands on the PUC2 so I could see where it ranks in his DDC family.
  
 In my comparison I was moving the USB plug from the U12 to the PUC2 (which shuts off the U12) so I suppose this prevented the U12's chips from getting warm and stable?
  
 Music was "Rodrigo y Gabriela Live in Japan"

```
[b]COMPONENT[/b] [b]CABLE[/b] Intel NUC iFi Gemini iFi iUSB iFi Mercury iFi iPurifier PUC2 Lite Bluejean AES Yulong D18 Straightwire Maestro GF RITA KT88 Virtue Speaker Connects Vapor Audio Stiff Breeze
```
  
 I'm sure 10 years and $20k from now all my Chinese components will be replaced with German


----------



## onlythat

And Wynnytsky, your PUC2 experience (and mine- I've heard it too) is why I think one can't always look at something part-wise, and say "hmmm... lower quality resistors and/or clocks- can't sound as good etc." We have all probably had the experience of hearing a cheap speaker or headphone outperform a more expensive and supposedly much higher spec'd one. Or a supposedly more 'accurate'/exotic FPGA DAC (I.e. a Chord Hugo) speak less musically to us than a NOS DAC or older Theta etc. And this is because the thing is the sum and synergy of its (many) parts- not the strength of any one part or pair of parts. To wit, often the original product i.e. original design of a thing sounded better to me than after my mod-happy friend added Black Gates and vcaps etc, because he was not judicious in use of them, but rather thought in reductionist fashion, "'better cap=better sound." To this school of thinking I'd say 'definitely sometimes- but definitely not always

Yes- there's something to be said for a balanced recipe in audio as in many other endeavors, and the PUC 2 Lite may be a very good example thereof.


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> So it looks like the Crystek is better then the NDKs  476 fs vs 341fs (although they are different clock freq - the 22.5792 CCHD-957 is a little worse then the higher clock 957's)


 
 ​
 Well, lets compare apples and apples.  The NDKs are speced from 1Hz phase noise where Crystek start at 10Hz.  And you are correct the original Crystek clock speed results above are double that of NDKs plot.
  
 So replotting the Crystek CCHD-957 -  22.5792Mhz,  10Hz to 1MHz.
 Phase Jitter:   68ps
 Period Jitter:   0.07ps
 Cycle-to-cycle Jitter:  0.12ps
  
 And the NDK 22.5792MHz,  10Hz to 1MHz (omitting the 1Hz data point).
 Phase Jitter:   142ps
 Period Jitter:   0.59ps
 Cycle-to-cycle Jitter:  1.03ps
  
 But results are deceiving.  Looking at the phase noise graphs the NDK is better in the audio band (10 - 1kHz) while the Crystek is better 10kHz to 1Mhz.  I would rather have lowest jitter at the audio frequencies.  So these two oscillators would be interesting to compare.  Where can you get NDKs?


----------



## b0bb

dacladder said:


> ​Where can you get NDKs?


 
   
About 8 $USD each

 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/35-ndk-nz2520sd-20ppm-ultra-low-phase-noise-oscillator.html


----------



## b0bb

dacladder said:


>





> Looking at the phase noise graphs the NDK is better in the audio band (10 - 1kHz) while the Crystek is better 10kHz to 1Mhz.  I would rather have lowest jitter at the audio frequencies.  So these two oscillators would be interesting to compare.  Where can you get NDKs?


 
 It would be interesting to look at the phase noise results at 2X the audio frequencies as this is the minimum  sampling frequency, similarly performance at 88kHz, 96kHz,192kHz and 352kHz, that is the band between 40kHz and 500kHz
  
 The DACs have to latch in the whole sample/word inorder to do the conversion, this is controlled by the the word-clocks.
 They are in the band mentioned above.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> Sat down to compare the PUC2 lite vs U12 over AES and it was over before I knew it.
> PUC2 was neither broken in or warmed up (perhaps because it uses USB for power, which is already warmed up?).  You could read about it for hours but one song is worth a billion bits.  In those few moments you realize what the U12 was doing wrong and you can't un-hear that.  Next time you engage the U12 you will be immediately and painfully aware.
> 
> I know 3 people who wouldn't upgrade to the U12 from the U10, and hearing how the PUC2 is closer to the U10 I see why.  2 of those U10 owners upgraded to the PUC2 and one of the U12 owners upgraded to the PUC2.  The former U10 owners are using PUC2 with an AES adapter.
> ...


 
 Now you did it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I have got to get a PUC2 lite!  Well the stock Breeze Audio right is making mince meat of the U12- this is one sweet sounding DDC.  In a few more days will put it in the main system vs the Hydra Z which is light years ahead of the U12 and MXU8 fed by the Teradak PS.  This is truly an embarrassment of riches! 
  
 I have an Audio Breeze with the Talema transformer coming and will order one done with the Crysteks.  If it gets much better this will very hard to beat.
  


onlythat said:


> And Wynnytsky, your PUC2 experience (and mine- I've heard it too) is why I think one can't always look at something part-wise, and say "hmmm... lower quality resistors and/or clocks- can't sound as good etc." We have all probably had the experience of hearing a cheap speaker or headphone outperform a more expensive and supposedly much higher spec'd one. Or a supposedly more 'accurate'/exotic FPGA DAC (I.e. a Chord Hugo) speak less musically to us than a NOS DAC or older Theta etc. And this is because the thing is the sum and synergy of its (many) parts- not the strength of any one part or pair of parts. To wit, often the original product i.e. original design of a thing sounded better to me than after my mod-happy friend added Black Gates and vcaps etc, because he was not judicious in use of them, but rather thought in reductionist fashion, "'better cap=better sound." To this school of thinking I'd say 'definitely sometimes- but definitely not always
> 
> Yes- there's something to be said for a balanced recipe in audio as in many other endeavors, and the PUC 2 Lite may be a very good example thereof.


 
 True enough - it's not just about fancy clocks.  The PUC2 does it's thing in a custom solution.  Even the drivers are FGPA hard coded.  Although I have to say regarding the V-caps (had a pair of ASL Hurricane Mono block done with them for $9K) they were nice.  And my recent experience with my Class A integrateds and DAC60 mod project upgrading through the Mundorf Supreme line - going from the std Supreme, to Silver in Oil, to Silver/Gold has been enlightening.  I agreed with everything Humble Made had to say on the totl Mundorfs - they are simply magical.


> Sound: At this level we are talking about a really serious capacitor, so my findings are relative to other exotic types. They are richer and better layered than the Mundorf Silver Gold (without the oil) and they seem more open and more spatial. Compared to the Duelund VSF-Cu they are not as rich in harmonic overtones. The Duelund VSF-Cu creates smoother harmonics and a better midrange balance but the Mundorf Silver Gold Oil really excels in image depth - call it bowling alley depth! In direct comparison, the Duelund VSF-Cu sounds flatter (a bit more 2D) and a little rounded-off at the top. Like most Mundorf capacitors, the Silver Gold Oil has a slight hint of top-end emphasis, this probably contributes to the perceived spatiality and micro-detailing. But I am very happy to live with that, these capacitors are so quiet and really let you look very deep into the recording!
> Verdict: 12+


----------



## DACLadder

b0bb said:


> About 8 $USD each
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/35-ndk-nz2520sd-20ppm-ultra-low-phase-noise-oscillator.html


 
 (The Windows 10 Web browser blows for editing posts on Head Fi.  Had to fire up Chrome).
 That is just too easy.  Ordered two of each at 45 and 49mHz.  Thanks.
  
 The DYIHK link has the Crystek 22Mhz plot overlayed onto the NDK plot.  Yep. shows the NDK better below 1Khz and Crystek better above 1Khz.  The Crystek is the fuzzy blue graph with the -97dBc/hz arrow pointing at its start.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> ​
> Well, lets compare apples and apples.  The NDKs are speced from 1Hz phase noise where Crystek start at 10Hz.  And you are correct the original Crystek clock speed results above are double that of NDKs plot.
> 
> So replotting the Crystek CCHD-957 -  22.5792Mhz,  10Hz to 1MHz.
> ...


 

 Well as I have pointed out before the ability to measure very low freq (1Hz-10Hz) is severely hampered by test equipment issues as pointed out in the SILabs whitepaper:  Last I checked 1kHz to 20 kHz is very much in the human audible range.
 http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/Clock-Division-WP.pdf
  


> *Instrument Noise Floor and Phase Noise Integration *
> 
> As mentioned earlier, when measuring the phase noise of very low-jitter clocks at low clock frequencies, the instrument noise floor can become the limiting factor of a measurement. At some point, you are measuring your equipment, not the device under test. Even though the phase noise curves are all getting monotonically smaller as the clock frequency decreases, the RMS edge jitter remains almost constant because the phase noise integration process uses the clock period to scale the RMS jitter values. To illustrate how this occurs, let’s look at the process of phase noise integration to produce an RMS jitter value. Most modern phase noise equipment produces a file that that has two columns (typically a .CSV file). One of the two columns gives the frequency offset from the clock (or carrier) frequency in Hertz. The other column gives the phase noise values at that offset frequency in dBc/Hz. In this manner, the two columns contain data point pairs that describe the phase noise at a given offset from the clock frequency. The process of integration involves summing up the area under the curve for all of the frequency offset points after converting the dBc/Hz values to linear values in the following manner


 
  Then you have Aliasing issues as well:


> *Aliasing *
> The other cause of increasing RMS jitter values with decreasing clock frequency is aliasing. For every division of two, the upper half of a phase noise plot is aliased down into the new lower clock frequency phase plot. Since phase noise is usually higher close to the clock (carrier) frequency and drops off as the offset from the clock frequency increases, the amount of phase noise that is being aliased down is usually relatively small. However, when dividing by large numbers, the effect becomes cumulative and significant. Referring back to Figure 1, the difference between the 1280 MHz and the 640 MHz curves is a constant 6 dB across the entire plot. As a result, one would expect that the increased RMS jitter values for the two curves shown in Table 2 are due entirely to alias and not to the instrument noise floor. The following spectra and phase noise plots illustrate aliasing. Note that the signals in this example use AM and are not what would be expected in a typical application. Rather, as the block diagram in Figure 8 indicates, they are used here to specifically illustrate this phenomenon.


 
 And from SITime's whitepaper - they seem to use the very high freq 1mHz levels.  On page 8 you'll a corresponding spike under 100Hz for phase noise
 http://www.sitime.com/support2/documents/AN10007-Jitter-and-measurement.pdf
  
 I would not put a lot of weight on 10Hz or 1Hz phase noise measures.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> (The Windows 10 Web browser blows for editing posts on Head Fi.  Had to fire up Chrome).
> That is just too easy.  Ordered two of each at 45 and 49mHz.  Thanks.
> 
> The DYIHK link has the Crystek 22Mhz plot overlayed onto the NDK plot.  Yep. shows the NDK better below 1Khz and Crystek better above 1Khz.  The Crystek is the fuzzy blue graph with the -97dBc/hz arrow pointing at its start.


 

 The Crystek measurement on the clock frequencies you ordered are better.  The NDK's are a great value - just a fun mounting project.  Don't forget to wire in the bypass resistor. BTW this chart has been posted here about 25 times...just say'n
  
 It is funny that the DIYinHK misread their own log chart 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





> For easier comparsion(lower is better), we overlay the two phase noise graph at the same scale, under 25khz(human listenable range) nz2520sd(red line) is better, over 25khz(human unlistenable range) crystek 957 is better.


----------



## Wynnytsky

rb2013 said:


> Now you did it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 feeling off my game
 The PUC2 Lite was available in late 2012 when I got my first DDC (john kenny).  I doubt the 8-core XMOS chip was even conceived yet.  Early 2013 reviews had PUC2 beating the AP1 (which uses the iPhone ARM chip), and I still got the AP1 in mid 2014.  I watched my friend's U10 best both JK and AP1.  In Oct 2014 I'm on the U12 which got a mixed reception from my off-line friends.
  
 For years I'm ordering expensive 2nd hand devices and paypal'ing into the darkest corners of the web when I could have driven a couple miles to my local pro audio shop, to buy something that isn't even branded for hifi.  That's a lot of insult to add to financial injury.
  
 But if there's a lesson to be learned here I'm resisting it like broccoli.  While I should stop to enjoy the music on 2012 technology (and patiently wait for Yellowtec to penetrate the I2S market), I will instead shake the DDC tree even harder for more unripe fruit.  The banana tastes great but I think I see a tamarind (Tanly) up there.


----------



## ginetto61

Maybe the really weak point in the U12 is the stock power supply ?
 there are many mods on this topic
 I would try one of these mods before discarding it.
 Regards, gino


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> feeling off my game
> The PUC2 Lite was available in late 2012 when I got my first DDC (john kenny).  I doubt the 8-core XMOS chip was even conceived yet.  Early 2013 reviews had PUC2 beating the AP1 (which uses the iPhone ARM chip), and I still got the AP1 in mid 2014.  I watched my friend's U10 best both JK and AP1.  In Oct 2014 I'm on the U12 which got a mixed reception from my off-line friends.
> 
> For years I'm ordering expensive 2nd hand devices and paypal'ing into the darkest corners of the web when I could have driven a couple miles to my local pro audio shop, to buy something that isn't even branded for hifi.  That's a lot of insult to add to financial injury.
> ...


 

 Well you are the one I blame (THANK) for getting me started on the U12!  Cheers to you friend! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Many years ago - when I could see the advantages of music servers - way before USB Audio Class 2.0 Asyn was a gleam in Steve Nugent's eye - I was already deeply into PC to DAC interfaces.  Going through all the Pro Audio I could find Apogee Rosetta, EMU 1616m, RME Fireface 800 and many I've forgotten.  Some using the 'new' fireface 1394a standard, some proprietary PCI CAT5 connections.  They were good - and did the job with some tweeking.  The best was the $1800 RME FireFace 800 which used the faster (higher data throughput) 1394b standard (double the 1394a) used in the F22 Raptor data links.  This was the only unit that could do 24/192 without hickups.  So that's what I used for years. 
  
 Then the big breakthrough came in Asynchronous USB 2.0 Audio Class coding in 2006. And the flood gates opened.  Look at what is available today at 1/10th the price of a FF800!  384K/32, DSD256, etc...
  
 And so I sold the FF800 on Ebay for $900 used!  After trying a M2Tech Hi-Face, then JK modded Hi-Face box, then the AP1, AP2,on and on to today.
  
 And it just keeps on getting better and better -so why stop!
  
 After I do the DDC review - I will explore these USB cleaning devices like the ReGen, Audio Quest JiiterBug, iFi USB iPurifier, etc...
  
 Speaking of I just bought an iFi Micro DAC2 to use as a semi-portable headamp.   But I see it also can do the USB bridge thing with an SPDIF digital output.  So I will add that to the DDC review just for grins.  Music Direct has a special offer that includes the iFi iPurifier for $30 - so that will be coming soon.  Just read a HiFi review on the JitterBug - very favorable.  On CA folks have used the JB and ReGen together and seperately to good effect.  So I will explore all those avenues as well. Much to do!
  
 http://www.musicdirect.com/p-343092-ifi-micro-idac2-ipurifier-bundle.aspx?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=102786211285&gclid=CIiKwuSS5ccCFQSUfgodqUkFAw


----------



## Wynnytsky

I think I've avoided mods to protect my sanity.  There are already so many variables that it's very hard to track and rank the results of all the possibilities.  But if rb2013 could eval the PUC2 then I'd know what amount of modding on each device would achieve PUC2's results.
  
 or maybe the U12's weakness will be absent on it's I2S output
 It'll be at least another week before I can run both PUC2 AES and U12 I2S into an X20U


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> I think I've avoided mods to protect my sanity.  There are already so many variables that it's very hard to track and rank the results of all the possibilities.  But if rb2013 could eval the PUC2 then I'd know what amount of modding on each device would achieve PUC2's results.
> 
> or maybe the U12's weakness will be absent on it's I2S output
> It'll be at least another week before I can run both PUC2 AES and U12 I2S into an X20U


 

 I'm looking forward to your comparison. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm just not pre-pared to drop $500 on a lark.  Still somewhat skeptical at this point - if it had at least a spdif coax output - I would feel a lot better.
  
 I'll be more certain when the BNC attenuators and Canare AES to BNC arrive, so I can compare this converted AEStoSPDIF route to straight SPDIF coax on the Z, U12, MX-U8 and Breeze.
  
 For you I understand as you are going from AES to your X20.
  
 Funny I was reading this 6moons review of this outstanding $6000 LaScala MKII R2R tubes DAC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/aqua/6.html
  
 and I saw this picture on the last page - with all the reviewers experience and gear and the LaScala having AES/I2S/SPDIF inputs - they still used the old SPDIF coax for the review!


----------



## frodeni

I am new to both this thread and the tech being discussed. I have tried to read most of the tread, yet, I still need some help to understand what my options are. Please hear me out.
  
 I got the Oppo HA-1. It is a bit on the sensitive side on the USB port, so I started looking at this Gustard U12, as a possible solution.
  
 My understanding from this tread is that basicly is just a XMOS chip with maybe some some clean and dirty side. Then I look into the XMOS chip, only to find that it is the little brother of the one in the Oppo.
  
 Then all this stuff on clock generators and power supplies. The Oppo got clock generators, or so it might seem. For power, it seems really bad. As for clean and dirty, the Oppo appears for my completely untrained eye to be just dirty.
  
 So in the end, if I upgrade the clock chips on the Oppo, my understanding is that pretty much just leaves me with dirty and power. Not even sure about the clean side of things with this Gustard.
  
 The Oppo:


http://www.hdfever.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/ha1diginput.jpg
  
 Short description found here:
  
http://www.qobuz.com/ie-en/info/hi-fi-guide/oppo-ha-1-the-amplifier-for176288
  
 If I had a professional to replace the clock generators, to these tiny NDKs, and also upgraded the DAC clock chip, would that be just as smart a route? I know I need to determin the clocks, but before going that route, it would be nice to discuss it a bit with you guys first. 
  
 Also, there is a lot of talk on drivers, where do I get a custom driver for this 16-core ship? Is there any hope, increasing the buffer? It is listing as "Asio Buffer Size" and "8192 samples". I need to crank it all the way, if not, sound is lacking.
  
 Any feedback greatly appreciated. I could get the Gustard U12, but given these components, does that make sense?


----------



## rb2013

frodeni said:


> I am new to both this thread and the tech being discussed. I have tried to read most of the tread, yet, I still need some help to understand what my options are. Please hear me out.
> 
> I got the Oppo HA-1. It is a bit on the sensitive side on the USB port, so I started looking at this Gustard U12, as a possible solution.
> 
> ...


 
 Well some good questions - and nice photo - I always love to see the inside of well engineered equipment.
  
 The way I see it you have the two choices as you mentioned.  Mod the HA-1 or go external.  The modding of the HA-1 will not be easy or cheap and is irreversible.  Trying an inexpensive DDC like the Gustard, Melodious or Audio Breeze is easy, quick, reliable, and completely reversible.
  
 Another advantage to going the separate route - one day you may want to replace or upgrade to a different head amp.  With the separate box you already have the foundation laid out to feed the new machine.
  
 One other choice would be go with an more expensive unit like the Tanly, Hydra Z or possibly the PUC2 lite.  Then call it game over.


----------



## frodeni

rb2013 said:


> ... The modding of the HA-1 will not be easy or cheap and is irreversible. ...


 
  
 Thanks for the feedback. Really appreciate it.
  
 On the cost issue, if I get hold of the specs of the clock generators, why would it be destructive to change them. Is there more to it than some soldering or maybe some simple adapters? Or is it just that by experience, doing this, you typically never go back? The latter was kind of me in the old days.
  
 From what you see on that photo, is there anything indicating any clean or dirty side? Do the U12 have anything like that?
  
 From what you say, you seem to imply that the external converter might be the wiser choice?


----------



## Wynnytsky

rb2013 said:


> I'll be more certain when the BNC attenuators and Canare AES to BNC arrive, so I can compare this converted AEStoSPDIF route to straight SPDIF coax on the Z, U12, MX-U8 and Breeze.


 
 I agree this test has to happen first before entertaining the idea of living with an adapter in your signal chain.
  
 I don't have that AES=>COAX impedance+voltage+plug converter so I would be curious to hear if you find a difference between using U12's AES and coax ouputs.  I strongly prefer using my DACs AES input, but perhaps that has more to do with the U12's output than the DAC's input.


----------



## rb2013

frodeni said:


> Thanks for the feedback. Really appreciate it.
> 
> On the cost issue, if I get hold of the specs of the clock generators, why would it be destructive to change them. Is there more to it than some soldering or maybe some simple adapters? Or is it just that by experience, doing this, you typically never go back? The latter was kind of me in the old days.
> 
> ...


 
 Well one those clocks get yanked out - it'll be hard to get them back in.  They don't like heat.  The NDK's are very small and tricky to mount on adapters.  But not impossible.  Are you doing it yourself?
  
 What do you mean by 'dirty' and 'clean' - before or after regulators?
  
 Yeah - kinda pointing in that direction.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> I agree this test has to happen first before entertaining the idea of living with an adapter in your signal chain.
> 
> I don't have that AES=>COAX impedance+voltage+plug converter so I would be curious to hear if you find a difference between using U12's AES and coax ouputs.  I strongly prefer using my DACs AES input, but perhaps that has more to do with the U12's output than the DAC's input.


 

 Yes - especailly for $500 not even a spdif coax output?  But it may not be that big of a deal with the adapters.
  
 I'd look for one used as they are likely to have a weak after market (no I2S - all the rage these days).


----------



## frodeni

rb2013 said:


> Well one those clocks get yanked out - it'll be hard to get them back in.  They don't like heat.  The NDK's are very small and tricky to mount on adapters.  But not impossible.  Are you doing it yourself?
> 
> What do you mean by 'dirty' and 'clean' - before or after regulators?
> 
> Yeah - kinda pointing in that direction.


 
 Thanks!
  
 If I am going to do the Oppo, I will hire someone to do it, question is if I will be able to find someone to trust with this. So, probably not.
  
 Really glad I checked in on this thread. Thanks a lot.


----------



## prot

Another Xmos DDC (and Dac and...)
http://m.ebay.com/itm/271869868867
Just saying...


----------



## Wynnytsky

ok this is the first I'm seeing the DDR, fan, and sata filters that I've seen mentioned on forums
  
 but nothing could have prepared me for,  RAINBOW SUGAR
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elfidelity-PC-HI-FI-Power-Filter-card-PCI-PCI-E-HiFi-PC-audio-power-purification-/251894388743


----------



## Core32

Holy cow. Unless that's an extender card (and I don't think it is) I say snake oil.
 I've just finished reading/scanning this entire topic and this add may take the cake.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Another Xmos DDC (and Dac and...)
> http://m.ebay.com/itm/271869868867
> Just saying...


 

 What no wall art?  Just kidding 'bro!
  
 Thanks for the link - I like El Fidelity stuff - those PC SATA and fan noise filters work great.
  
 Looks like a knock off of the iDAC2  - but with a XMOS processor.  Interesting - just wish they had digital spdif coax out instead of just optical.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> ok this is the first I'm seeing the DDR, fan, and sata filters that I've seen mentioned on forums
> 
> but nothing could have prepared me for,  RAINBOW SUGAR
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elfidelity-PC-HI-FI-Power-Filter-card-PCI-PCI-E-HiFi-PC-audio-power-purification-/251894388743


 

 I tried their filters - excellent (this was recommended here by Alex I believe last yr).  I replaced the SotM ones to good effect.
  
 I tried a  couple of their USB cards - not good.  Paul Pang's are way better.  Still looking at his OXCO card - expensive.
  
  
 http://ppaproduct.blogspot.tw/2013/07/audio-grade-usb-30-pcie-card.html


----------



## prot

core32 said:


> Holy cow. Unless that's an extender card (and I don't think it is) I say snake oil.
> I've just finished reading/scanning this entire topic and this add may take the cake.




I call that kind of stuff audio-oil . But mine is not a particularly popular opinion around here. 




rb2013 said:


> What no wall art?  Just kidding 'bro!
> 
> Thanks for the link - I like El Fidelity stuff - those PC SATA and fan noise filters work great.
> 
> Looks like a knock off of the iDAC2  - but with a XMOS processor.  Interesting - just wish they had digital spdif coax out instead of just optical.



 Guess it is safe to assume that it is a knockoff of iDAC and 10 other devices. Pure china-style (and before I get spammed, that does not mean wrong/bad style but quite the opposite)
If it sounds good as DDC, it'll be a better bargain than U12.. approx same price with DAC & amp as extras. No i2s but many dont care about that.. the single optical out should be enough if it does 24/192.


----------



## frodeni

rb2013 said:


> I tried their filters - excellent (this was recommended here by Alex I believe last yr).  I replaced the SotM ones to good effect.
> 
> I tried a  couple of their USB cards - not good.  Paul Pang's are way better.  Still looking at his OXCO card - expensive.
> 
> ...


 
  
 If they work for you, could you please share a bit on that. If not here, then in a PM?
  
 I now got the option of the U12, the AQ jitter bug, the schiit decrapyfier, the Paul Pang USB card, PCIE filters, fan filters, HDD filters. And all of these works?
  
 That is a lot of components, and if all these works just a little, that still amounts to a lot of noise. And a lot of money.
  
 Any sharing of experiences with these, is highly appreciated.


----------



## rb2013

frodeni said:


> If they work for you, could you please share a bit on that. If not here, then in a PM?
> 
> I now got the option of the U12, the AQ jitter bug, the schiit decrapyfier, the Paul Pang USB card, PCIE filters, fan filters, HDD filters. And all of these works?
> 
> ...


 

 Well don't forget the Uptone Regen and iFi iPurifier.  And for DDC's besides the U12 -the Breeze Audio, Melodious, Tanly, Hydra Z, PUC2, DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a, iDAC2, Audio-gd, etc...
  
 You might find this thread I started a while ago helpful - http://www.head-fi.org/t/754654/new-pc-music-server-build-project-all-ssd-no-fans
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elfidelity-SATA-Hard-Disk-Power-Filter-Adapter-for-Computer-Audio-Enhancement-/281787383333?hash=item419bd63e25
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elfidelity-PC-Cooling-Fan-Power-Filter-for-Computer-Audio-Enhancement-/281777982699?hash=item419b46cceb
  
 SotM has some new stuff as well.


----------



## pigfatcat

I have been using U12 for half a year . I found that it adds smoothness and 3Dness to the presentation , no matter I put it in front of Audio GD NFB 10 SE or Chord Hugo . Typically my experience with Hugo is revealing: direct link to HD USB sounds more precise , quick and accurate , but crisp , glare and digital and somtimes harsh . Comparatively , U12 to Coaxial of Hugo sound more natural and full . 

I recently tried putting Elfidelity USB Booster II in front of Hugo instead of U12:
https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.0.0.XtI6MU&id=40230386675&_u=71d7eit2e43

The idea is simple: separate the power supply of the computer through the USB output and supplying a separate source to it . Although the USB power supply is used by Hugo in its HD USB input only for the purpose of handshake , in practice it affects the sound of the HD USB input significantly . The full potentialof the HD USB input is limited , as Rob had mentioned before , by the EMF and power contamination of the USB power supply .

I found that Elfidelity takes away at most , if not all , of the harshness and digital glare . The fullness of the sound is comparable , or in a sense better and more true than using U 12 . The resulting sound is much more lively , natural , quick and accurate compared with using U12 . For the first time I realized that I achieved the "LP sound" of Hugo described by many admirers of Hugo . In particular , the" timing" of how each note starts , peaks and drops are presented more accurately by Hugo through the HD USB rather than the coaxial port . This is something which Rob mentioned which gave rise to the naturalness of Hugo similar to LP sound, compared with other top DACs . 

It has been discussed among Hugo users whether coaxial or HD USB gives better sounding. Each has its weakness and strengths . However with the use of Elfidelity I am convinced that the HD USB port is naturally the better input of Hugo for true reproduction of music .

I found that Elfidelity basically solve the problem and bring the HD USB input of Hugo to a next level, and surpassing the coxial input by a large margin . I also found , strangely , that the power suuply and even the power supply cord to Elfidelity have a significant effect on the sound . I tired attaching the USB charging chord supplied by Elfidelity to a power adapter , direct to a Xiaomi USB power bank, and to an Orico USB Hub . The Orico Hub turns out to be the winner with the most lively ,quick , accurate and full sound. 

https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?id=19833643401&spm=a1z09.2.0.0.yWslUC&_u=71d7eitea83&sku_properties=148242406:21516


----------



## abartels

Hi Guys,
  
 A new find:
  
 http://world.taobao.com/item/45685222658.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7728556.0.0.KaFqkW
  
 What do you think about this little device?
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## ginetto61

abartels said:


> Hi Guys,
> A new find:
> http://world.taobao.com/item/45685222658.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7728556.0.0.KaFqkW
> What do you think about this little device?
> ...


 
  
 Hi ! nice !
 what is it ?
 Thanks, gino


----------



## abartels

Use Google translate, it's some sort of USB regen device


----------



## ginetto61

abartels said:


> Use Google translate, it's some sort of USB regen device


 
 Yes ... i did and got this ...
  


> _*Titanis USB processor, one rat and mouse interface recommendation match.* *大电流版698元*​ *Large current version 698 yuan* _


 
  
 found something else about it ...
  
http://www.offerany.com/p-45685222658.html


----------



## abartels

Scroll down please and translate, I'm on mobile now and can't translate now


----------



## abartels

Don't visit link with your mobile, it's mobile version and less info,,,,
  
 This is translated with Google:
  
 Titanis two ways: Standard Edition 498 yuan, the maximum output current of 300mA. Large current version 698 yuan, the maximum output 800mA. The vast majority interface consumes less than 200 mA, you can buy the standard version. Very few interfaces (such as Hydra Z) exceeds the current limit, select large current version titanis.
        Titanis USB processor is connected between the computer and the interface / decoding, can significantly enhance the quality of products.
        Works is simple: first boost regulator then allows the original dirty become clean and stable power supply, the measured input power supply ripple few millivolts, only 8 microvolts output, reduced by about 1,000 times, the interface / decoding provide a quality power supply environment. In addition, as the computer's internal complex electromagnetic environment and quality of power supply, the computer itself provides the USB signal is quite poor, which is superimposed a lot of interference and jitter. Titanis to the USB signal is received in the local cache memory down into, and then use high-quality local clock, then the signal is sent out, a significant reduction in this case the output signal Jitter.
        In one mouse (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=36283409413), for example, after an increase titanis, sound fuller, cohesion, transparency, higher density, ends extending better and more stable ʱ?? USB cable, the better, the more you can feel the beauty of this USB processor.
        For second-generation USB-powered mouse interface UT02 (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=41653848564), because titanis provides higher quality power supply, the effect is more pronounced.
 Titanis shell is made of aluminum craft dig, delicate beautiful, do not mail, the default hair SF.
 Strongly recommended titanis + zebra 号 2 USB cable kit, with one machine rat or mouse interface, greatly enhance the sound quality. Original price 998 yuan, 848 yuan package price, including SF
  
  
 It's gibberish, but its obvious what they say about it,,,,,


----------



## ginetto61

Thanks Alex !
 an extremely interesting device
 why they do not put it on ebay.com with these features description you have provided ?
 they would sell it much more easily i guess
 Maybe it is intended only for Asia ?
 Thanks again,   gino


----------



## Wynnytsky

pigfatcat said:


> I have been using U12 for half a year . I found that it adds smoothness and 3Dness to the presentation


 
 in retrospect I would say the U12 has not been honest with me.  There is a degree of scaling/zooming that steps forward into my room with a 3ft bloom around each speaker.  This unique sound is what I initially understood to be 3d.  It's entertaining at first but my brain gave up long ago trying to determine it's point-source and instead accepted the diffuse sound as you would in a public movie theater.  This enhanced sound doesn't fall apart on simple high quality recordings, but pull up any of your complex Led or Queen from hdtracks and the whole thing is a mess.  I use to tell myself that my stereo was too good for old recordings.
  


pigfatcat said:


> I found that Elfidelity takes away at most , if not all , of the harshness and digital glare . The fullness of the sound is comparable , or in a sense better and more true than using U 12 . The resulting sound is much more lively , natural , quick and accurate compared with using U12 . For the first time I realized that I achieved the "LP sound" of Hugo described by many admirers of Hugo . In particular , the" timing" of how each note starts , peaks and drops are presented more accurately by Hugo through the HD USB rather than the coaxial port .


 
 Your above experience perfectly describes so much of what's happening with new technology being used upstream of the DAC.
 I got a decent serving of the LP sound by throwing in iFi stuff (iUSB and iPurifier), but what really took it home was shelving the [unmodded] U12.  My 2.5yr old DAC revealed that it could get all the timing and tone right when fed a signal from the PUC2 Lite.  Kind of sad because I only had the PUC2 for a weekend and my DAC will be replaced by an X20 this month.  Even sadder when I consider the PUC2 was around for as long as I had this DAC.  Oh well.
  
 One way to spare yourself of all the taoboa desktop upgrades is to force your hand with a $200 Asus EeeBook (fanless quad core laptop)
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100006740%2050001315%20600003973%20600004383&IsNodeId=1&Manufactory=1315&bop=And&CompareItemList=32%7C34-232-395%5E34-232-395%2C34-232-394%5E34-232-394&percm=34-232-395%3A%24%24%24%24%24%24%24%3B34-232-394%3A%24%24%24%24%24%24%24
 I would have to get the gold one because I rock Conrad Johnson
 But I would imagine that browsing the web would be sluggish while listening to music.  I would likely go for the Core m3 model.


----------



## abartels

Very curious how long it will take before the first chinese DDC's  with the newest XMOS U-16 chip will show up on  taobao.com  





  
 http://www.xmos.com/published/xs1-u16a-128-fb217-datasheet?version=latest
  
  
  
 Just to keep you guys awake 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Don't visit link with your mobile, it's mobile version and less info,,,,
> 
> This is translated with Google:
> 
> ...


 
 Nice!  Another USB filter/regen to toss into the mix once the DDC shootout is complete.
  


abartels said:


> Very curious how long it will take before the first chinese DDC's  with the newest XMOS U-16 chip will show up on  taobao.com
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Technology marches on!  Got to love/hate computer audio...


----------



## abartels

Hahaha, very true


----------



## rb2013

Well the set of BNC attenuators arrived and the BNC to RCA adapters.  The AES to BNC Canare adapter not yet.
  
 But already pay dirt!
  
 Tried the 3dB attenuator on the Hydra Z BNC output to spdif coax.  And a subtle but definite improvement.  As the night wore on - really liked the
 improvement.  Most noticeable change - better focus in the sound stage, which was wider and deeper still.  A bit more clarity and bass definition.
  
 Will try the 6dB tonight - Well maybe John Kenny was right - the spdif outputs to high a signal and needs some attenuation.  His theory also stated some back reflection on the spdif coax cable back into the spdif sender - causing issues.  The attenuator blocks this back wave.  It also filters out any EMI/RFI in higher freq at the connector.
  
 Looking forward to try the AES to SPDIF with various attenuation.  I have a 3dB, 6dB, 10dB, 20dB in the set and they can be piggybacked for a wide array of levels.


----------



## Wynnytsky

abartels said:


> Very curious how long it will take before the first chinese DDC's  with the newest XMOS U-16 chip will show up on  taobao.com
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 with that kind of horse power we shouldn't need a driver
 in fact, you install a Chinese driver for that and the extra cores will be brute force hacking your password file.
 it won't be long before sound cards join video cards in Folding@home.  XMOS - Battling cancer while we sleep, jitter while we listen.


----------



## Wynnytsky

rb2013 said:


> Well maybe John Kenny was right - the spdif outputs to high a signal and needs some attenuation.  His theory also stated some back reflection on the spdif coax cable back into the spdif sender - causing issues.  The attenuator blocks this back wave.  It also filters out any EMI/RFI in higher freq at the connector.


 
 I remember John sharing that info with me as well.  I presume impedance is not only dictated by the heads on a cable, but the length/gauge/conductivity of that cable.  And if that's the case, wouldn't a given cable design have an "ideal" length where it presents a perfect 75 or 110ohm resistance?  As much as I like the idea of short cables for short signal runs, John Kenny's words about reflections bouncing between sender&receiver makes be wonder if my AES cable's 4M length might be working in my favor


----------



## genclaymore

I wonder how long it takes before gustard makes a gustard U16 with the new chips besides the connections it would have if they do.


----------



## Core32

rb2013 said:


> Looking forward to try the AES to SPDIF with various attenuation.  I have a 3dB, 6dB, 10dB, 20dB in the set and they can be piggybacked for a wide array of levels.


 
 Well at some point you are obviously going to attenuate the signal itself to nothing. And that probably will yield a VERY smooth, black background.  
 What frequency band are the attenuators you purchased designed for?


----------



## DACLadder

core32 said:


> Well at some point you are obviously going to attenuate the signal itself to nothing. And that probably will yield a VERY smooth, black background.
> What frequency band are the attenuators you purchased designed for?


 

 And are they 75 ohm impedance?  Most attenuators I have seen are for RF applications and are 50 ohm.  And BNC connectors are 50 ohm by design.  All negligible, of course, with short cables. 
  
 S/PDIF receiver chips usually boost high frequency response based upon the amplitude of the received signal.  The amount of boost is based upon normal attenuation of signal through coax like RG-59.  Longer the cable the more attenuation and resulting boost applied to recover the signal.  So yes you may find a sweet spot where everything works best with a given length of cable, attenuator,  and S/PDIF receiver chip. 
  
 And 3dB of signal attenuation (power) yields 1/2 signal amplitude on the output.   6dB, 1/4 amplitude,  10dB, 1/10 amplitude.  20dB. 1/100 amplitude, etc.


----------



## Core32

I should have looked at the Ebay link. Looks like DC-1GHz claimed and 50 ohm, not 75.
 Not to argue a point but there are 75 ohm BNC combinations out there but 50 is the norm.
  
http://www.pasternack.com/75-ohm-bnc-connectors-category.aspx?gclid=CIDysPnA6scCFQoTHwod_S0OMQ
  
 Getting a "ideal length of cable to match an impedance" shouldn't be required or make much difference in signal integrity if the cable is properly made and properly terminated.


----------



## Core32

Double posting.


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> A new find:
> 
> ...




I think it's dandy . I wish their gibberish didnt mention those Usb cables with better SQ. I tend to lose interest when someone talks about magic wires. 

Anyway, thx for a good find ... good to see some competition for that grossly overpriced regen thingie.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> I remember John sharing that info with me as well.  I presume impedance is not only dictated by the heads on a cable, but the length/gauge/conductivity of that cable.  And if that's the case, wouldn't a given cable design have an "ideal" length where it presents a perfect 75 or 110ohm resistance?  As much as I like the idea of short cables for short signal runs, John Kenny's words about reflections bouncing between sender&receiver makes be wonder if my AES cable's 4M length might be working in my favor


 

 Yes - the engineers state the optimal length for a digital coax SPDIF is not the std 1M - but 1.5M.  This min standing back wave reflections.
  


> Why is 1.5m the ideal length for a RCA/BNC digital cable?  Using a digital cable of at least 1.5m in length dramatically reduces the effect of signal reflection (from the receiver back to the transmitter) in typical audiophile equipment. Reflection contributes significantly to jitter in the digital signal. And of course jitter reduces the fidelity of digital music.
> In a perfect world where the impedance of the digital source transport (transmitter), transmission line (all wiring, cables, and connectors in between), and the input receiver (DAC) are all identically matched at the S/PDIF standard of 75 ohms, signal reflection is not an issue. But the reality is that this is almost impossible to achieve, particularly in the transmission line.
> The choice of 1.5m is just a practical guideline since no one wants a cable in their system that is too long.
> For more technical information on this subject consult the following technical article written by Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio.


 
  
 http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm


----------



## frodeni

pigfatcat said:


> I have been using U12 for half a year . I found that it adds smoothness and 3Dness to the presentation , no matter I put it in front of Audio GD NFB 10 SE or Chord Hugo . Typically my experience with Hugo is revealing: direct link to HD USB sounds more precise , quick and accurate , but crisp , glare and digital and somtimes harsh . Comparatively , U12 to Coaxial of Hugo sound more natural and full .
> 
> I recently tried putting Elfidelity USB Booster II in front of Hugo instead of U12:
> https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.0.0.XtI6MU&id=40230386675&_u=71d7eit2e43
> ...


  
  
 Did I get this right: You preferred the Elfidelity over the U12? If I got that right, how did they sound together?
  


rb2013 said:


> I tried their filters - excellent (this was recommended here by Alex I believe last yr).  I replaced the SotM ones to good effect.
> 
> I tried a  couple of their USB cards - not good.  Paul Pang's are way better.  Still looking at his OXCO card - expensive.
> 
> ...


 


  
 If I get this right, rb2013 prefered the Paul Pang USB card. I've sort of lost track of what rb2013 uses after that point, but he obviously uses plenty of filters for his PC.
  
  


wynnytsky said:


> in retrospect I would say the U12 has not been honest with me.  There is a degree of scaling/zooming that steps forward into my room with a 3ft bloom around each speaker.  This unique sound is what I initially understood to be 3d.  It's entertaining at first but my brain gave up long ago trying to determine it's point-source and instead accepted the diffuse sound as you would in a public movie theater.  This enhanced sound doesn't fall apart on simple high quality recordings, but pull up any of your complex Led or Queen from hdtracks and the whole thing is a mess.  I use to tell myself that my stereo was too good for old recordings.
> 
> Your above experience perfectly describes so much of what's happening with new technology being used upstream of the DAC.
> I got a decent serving of the LP sound by throwing in iFi stuff (iUSB and iPurifier), but what really took it home was shelving the [unmodded] U12.  My 2.5yr old DAC revealed that it could get all the timing and tone right when fed a signal from the PUC2 Lite.  Kind of sad because I only had the PUC2 for a weekend and my DAC will be replaced by an X20 this month.  Even sadder when I consider the PUC2 was around for as long as I had this DAC.  Oh well.
> ...


 
  
 Wynnytsky seems to have found sonic traits by the U12, that to him were off. He seems to prefer shelfing the U12, and use iUSB and iPurifier?
  
 To me, it seems like daisy chaining all these things, are not always resulting in a more musical rig. What people end up with as the best, seems to vary. If I just take their statements as for what they are, then this noise issue would be manifesting itself differently for different rigs, and the effects of noise filtering probably speaks differently to different people? If so, this mess all makes sense.
  
 In my experience, digital noise is b*tch. I find the sonic traits utterly confusing to decipher. This random nature nature of digital noise, differs from the more controlled effects of analogue distortion. I need to spend like all my analytical skills on it, and even then, I seem to struggle a bit with it. Often times making mistakes. 
  
 I really like you all sharing a bit on your experiences. Thanks a lot. I think sharing like this, is the way to go to understand this noise nature in the longer run. It is just utterly confusing at the moment.
  
 Also, a lot of these filters are just capacitors in parallel. Some USB solutions are just  better clock chips. Some offer a new and clean power. To me, finding a way to play around with these, as by DIY or modding, is probably my way of doing things. Things appear to be a bit too much hit and miss at the moment, and if making mods myself, I can over do them, as to provoke their negative effects. I probably just start with a cheap USB card, upgrading the clock generator, and adding filter to the power input. While at it, adding filters to the 5V output, should be perfectly possible then.
  
 As for the U12, I am still uncertain.


----------



## vincponc2610

minorisuke said:


> You and I were simply too "early".  I found MX-U8 on Taobao and asked Shenzhen Audio if they could get one for me.  As a "special order", they have a rule that no return is accepted even if the unit is defect.  They simply purchased one  from Taobao (= Melodious in this case) and sent it to me.  Their handling charge was reasonable.  Taobao's 7-day warranty is still valid, but it expires usually when the good arrives to a customer outside China.  That is why Shenzhen Audio say "no warranty for special orders".
> After that, I suggested that this item could be a hit if they included it in their normal product line-up, which they did.  I think you and I were the only customers of Shenzhen Audio who have bought MX-U8 without warranty.
> 
> Regarding Tanly USB-DDC, I suggested in the same way, but Shenzhen Audio seems to have no interest in putting them into their normal product line-up.  You can try to pursuade them again.


 
 Why buying on Shenzhen Audio ? It is more expensive than Taobao.
 U8 is 168 USD + 30 USD shipping on Taobao when it is 239USD on Shenzhen Audio.
 But, I cannot manage to have chrome to translate the select box during writting the shipping adress, so I cannot buy through Taobao.
 Any idea about that ?


----------



## Wynnytsky

vincponc2610 said:


> But, I cannot manage to have chrome to translate the select box during writting the shipping adress, so I cannot buy through Taobao.


 
 I'm told learning Chinese is something we should consider for our next generation, and yet I'm already seeing the benefit of knowing Chinese!  There should be a cliff notes for Chinese, just enough to navigate through a shopping cart.  I'm definitely going to a friends house (his wife is Chinese) the next time Taobao has something that my system wants.
  


			
				MINORISUKE said:
			
		

> Regarding Tanly USB-DDC, I suggested in the same way, but Shenzhen Audio seems to have no interest in putting them into their normal product line-up.  You can try to pursuade them again.


 
 Tanly doesn't even have time to handle direct orders, let alone to stock re-sellers that take a commission.  I thought me and China had a good thing going.  My government would print them launderable green notes (like baseball trading cards, but with presidents) and China would send me amazing electronics made from rare earth metals, the mining of which has taken an unspeakable toll on their environment.  The relationship may soon be over, but we have a lifetime of memories.


----------



## bimmer100

Once I'm officially moved into my place and my rig is all setup I will finally be able to try out the modded u12 I have with crysteks, new caps, and ic that makes it compatible with my my master 11. Also I'm interested to compare it to my eifidility powered by a teradak lps. Vs Paul pang v3 ocxo USB, and also that USB regen Amber. When I got a psaudio p300 with multiwave 2 I found a noticeable improvement in the precision of my system. I just run it in pure sine wave 60hz or 55hz as I find it to be a little more full with the low end. 
I'm also running a many eifidelity filters all through my PC on the sata drives, water pump, pcie bus etc. anyhow. Mostly excited to try the basic USB from my Asus rampage iV black series motherboard vs eifidility USB with linear power vs Paul pang v3 ocxo on linear power. While using either amanero combo 384 USB or gustard u12.
Likely it's already been done, but will share in a couple weeks with my results.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> Once I'm officially moved into my place and my rig is all setup I will finally be able to try out the modded u12 I have with crysteks, new caps, and ic that makes it compatible with my my master 11. Also I'm interested to compare it to my eifidility powered by a teradak lps. Vs Paul pang v3 ocxo USB, and also that USB regen Amber. When I got a psaudio p300 with multiwave 2 I found a noticeable improvement in the precision of my system. I just run it in pure sine wave 60hz or 55hz as I find it to be a little more full with the low end.
> I'm also running a many eifidelity filters all through my PC on the sata drives, water pump, pcie bus etc. anyhow. Mostly excited to try the basic USB from my Asus rampage iV black series motherboard vs eifidility USB with linear power vs Paul pang v3 ocxo on linear power. While using either amanero combo 384 USB or gustard u12.
> Likely it's already been done, but will share in a couple weeks with my results.


 

 Nice!  Looking forward to your comparisons.


----------



## frodeni

bimmer100 said:


> Once I'm officially moved into my place and my rig is all setup I will finally be able to try out the modded u12 I have with crysteks, new caps, and ic that makes it compatible with my my master 11. Also I'm interested to compare it to my eifidility powered by a teradak lps. Vs Paul pang v3 ocxo USB, and also that USB regen Amber. When I got a psaudio p300 with multiwave 2 I found a noticeable improvement in the precision of my system. I just run it in pure sine wave 60hz or 55hz as I find it to be a little more full with the low end.
> I'm also running a many eifidelity filters all through my PC on the sata drives, water pump, pcie bus etc. anyhow. Mostly excited to try the basic USB from my Asus rampage iV black series motherboard vs eifidility USB with linear power vs Paul pang v3 ocxo on linear power. While using either amanero combo 384 USB or gustard u12.
> Likely it's already been done, but will share in a couple weeks with my results.


 
  
 We got the same MB. Would love to hear from you on what your experience is.
  
 As for water cooling, just use the Aquaero6. You may even run it on a separate PSU if you want. You run all your fans and pumps from it, and it configurable like carzy. You may connect it your PC for easier config, but USB is easy to disconnect when done. Combined with NF-F12s, you get RPMs at 130-1400. Those 130rpm is way below spec and any other controller. Drill the holes on the rad, and use the rubber grommets. Pumps by the same maker, may be PWM controlled by the Aquaero as well.


----------



## Wynnytsky

rb2013 said:


> Yes - the engineers state the optimal length for a digital coax SPDIF is not the std 1M - but 1.5M.  This min standing back wave reflections.


 
 I'm pretty sure I've heard the same number for USB cables (around 4ft)
 Since your are the most resourceful with digging up facts (this is not the first time), would you be able to find the same figure for HDMI?
 Google says HDMI is 100ohm +- 15%
 That's seems like an impressive tolerance.
  
 Cable too short risks having too low of an impedance that would invite reflections (jitter?)
 Cable too long risks having too high of an impedance that would drop bits (loosing detail, or signal lock failure)
  
  
 Quote:


bimmer100 said:


> Once I'm officially moved into my place and my rig is all setup ...





> When I got a psaudio p300 with multiwave 2 I found a noticeable improvement in the precision of my system. I just run it in pure sine wave 60hz or 55hz as I find it to be a little more full with the low end.


 
 I'll also be moving next month.  I'm going to let friends break in the X20.  Sucks to loose a good audio room.  I also like the multiwave off on my PS Audio P3.  Dude, you got Vanatoos!  With it's integrated amp+dac (and digital correction) I found that to be the cheapest start into this hobby.  I'll dig up a picture of the mounts I used to hold them about a foot off the wall.


----------



## Wynnytsky

frodeni said:


> Wynnytsky seems to have found sonic traits by the U12, that to him were off. He seems to prefer shelfing the U12, and use iUSB and iPurifier?
> 
> To me, it seems like daisy chaining all these things, are not always resulting in a more musical rig. What people end up with as the best, seems to vary. If I just take their statements as for what they are, then this noise issue would be manifesting itself differently for different rigs, and the effects of noise filtering probably speaks differently to different people? If so, this mess all makes sense.


 
 well I'm not writing off the U12 just yet.  There's still the chance that a connection to the X20 over I2S will yield entirely different results.  I need to be patient and yet I still jumped on Tanly's waiting list (or at least I think I did).  The iFi devices are just higher-end versions of the USB regenerators and filters coming out of China, so I still need something like the U12 to complete my connection.
  
 The PUC2 Lite had exceptionally analog character on it's own so I wasted no time in removing my iPurifier, but [in doing so] the minute amount of detail that I gained was not worth the re-introduction of that larger digital signature that I'm trying to hide.  My friends have USB cables that may as well be filters when you hear they're signature.  For now I'm getting away with an ultra detailed iFi Gemini cable (exactly 1.5m yay), but if I2S+X20 presents too much edge I could dial it back with something like a whiplash polestar cable.


----------



## MINORISUKE

wynnytsky said:


> I'm told learning Chinese is something we should consider for our next generation, and yet I'm already seeing the benefit of knowing Chinese!  There should be a cliff notes for Chinese, just enough to navigate through a shopping cart.  I'm definitely going to a friends house (his wife is Chinese) the next time Taobao has something that my system wants.
> 
> *@MINORISUKE*
> Tanly doesn't even have time to handle direct orders, let alone to stock re-sellers that take a commission.  I thought me and China had a good thing going.  My government would print them launderable green notes (like baseball trading cards, but with presidents) and China would send me amazing electronics made from rare earth metals, the mining of which has taken an unspeakable toll on their environment.  The relationship may soon be over, but we have a lifetime of memories.


 
 Do not quote my name.  I have nothing to do with this topic.


----------



## MINORISUKE

vincponc2610 said:


> Why buying on Shenzhen Audio ? It is more expensive than Taobao.
> U8 is 168 USD + 30 USD shipping on Taobao when it is 239USD on Shenzhen Audio.
> But, I cannot manage to have chrome to translate the select box during writting the shipping adress, so I cannot buy through Taobao.
> Any idea about that ?


 
 It is my decision to buy MX-U8 from Shenzhen Audio for various reasons.
 You may know how difficult it is to buy in Taobao, unless you can communicate in Chinese and have an appropriate way to pay the seller specifies.


----------



## bimmer100

wynnytsky said:


> I'll also be moving next month.  I'm going to let friends break in the X20.  Sucks to loose a good audio room.  I also like the multiwave off on my PS Audio P3.  Dude, you got Vanatoos!  With it's integrated amp+dac (and digital correction) I found that to be the cheapest start into this hobby.  I'll dig up a picture of the mounts I used to hold them about a foot off the wall.




Yea, I agree. The vanatoo transparent 1's are a special set of speakers indeed. I did not expect to hear such amazing detail and low end from a bookshelf self powered type speaker. And I've heard a lot of speakers in its class. I had my eyes on some kef's until I heard these vanatoo's at a fraction of the cost. I still ended up pairing a definitive super cube 2000 subwoofer with them. That combination is pretty darn impressive imho. Considering they are my office speakers. They fill a room with sound easily. And I can hear the bass outside of my home even. That little supercube 2000 has a similar type amp but is classified as class HD amp not just plain class D. Difference mainly is that it doesn't draw any power until it needs it. Which makes it extremely efficient, or so it claims. My opinion is its the most efficient and tightest sounding sub I've ever hear in a 1x1 size cube! The vanatoo's pair perfectly with it. They already had better low end than any other bookshelf speakers I've heard. And the mids are sweet and detailed, not recessed. I did upgrade the speaker cables and USB cable, that's about it. It sounds best via USB or optical and usually use it with optical up til recently. 

I have been using optical to send a signal from my onboard sound card of the Asus rampage IV black series motherboard which has the cs4398 chipset. It sounds pretty good to the point I would say it's the best sounding on board sound I've heard from any motherboard. But my other audio-Gd stuff is notably better without trying to hard to listen. Not surprised there. The nfb-28 and master11 leave it in the entry level category. But when I hear it vs a basic sound card of a laptop or even some modern motherboards with claimed onboard sound. It's much better. I even have a soundblaster e5 portable headphone amp and the onboard sound is better. Oddly it's the same chipset! same TI amplifier too! All about implementation I suppose. 

All this talk about audio is leaving me anxious to finish my move and listen to my end game setup "imho". The only thing I'm considering for future upgrades is a pair of Hifiman HEK's and a pair of Ether C's to complete the open and closed preference. My modded He560's are so good but I'm still considering an upgrade once I find a pair of each at a reasonable price. (Cough) haha

The USB cable debate.... I had been using Pangea USB cables until I tried a supra USB cable. Now I'm sold on supra USB. They are 90ohm rated and the quality is superb. I've tried some very fancy USB cables and just ended up going back to basics. Spending too much yielded no significant results or worse results. Supra at least is reasonable and not overpriced yet is made with tight tolerances of what USB should be. It's a very smooth sounding cable and brings the best out in my master11. Either way, all USB cables are like splitting hairs 1-2% at most in either direction unless it's poorly made. IMHO. I just refuse to waste money on high priced USB cables anymore. Comparing the supra to cables ten times its cost ended up being a downgrade or sometimes a sidegrade improvement. Pangea cables are used on a lot of my devices. I prefer supra for my modded u12 and use a DHLabs pure silver hdmi cable for the i2s connection to my master 11. 
The talk about short hdmi vs long hdmi makes me wonder. kingwa @audio-gd said for i2s that the shorter the cable the better. So I have a .3meter hdmi cable. I have to say it sounds superb. But I have a 1.5 meter one I could experiment with too. I am not too familiar with bnc connections as I've never really used them, but with USB there is a lot of noise from the PHY chip that works hard if the cable isn't rated at 90ohm, at least this is the explanation from uptone audio's Alex Crespi. Having a USB cable that is properly made and within proper 90ohm spec will provide optimum results and least USB PHY ic noise. His device, USB regen Amber, unfortunately didn't make much difference in my system as others claim to have notable results. Maybe my components are high enough grade it simply didn't matter as much. I can't make a definitive yes or no on that regen Amber yet as I haven't given it a thorough enough testing yet. I received it before I started to move and only had 5-8 hours of listening and didn't try enough sources, cables, and with or without. 
It's hard to improve my system anymore as its already very musical and I have found myself throwing money at it with no more improvements. I'm happy enough to say the dac/amp/DDC/cables/power sources are end game for me. Maybe I will eat my words when I try the Paul pang v3. Maybe not. I would invite another 1% or more improvement of sound by furthering the analog sweetness it already has. The master 11 has somewhat ruined me and everything else just sounds splashy and digital. Yea, R2R vs Delta sigma. I've had many people try both and they all agree the m11 is way better.
I do want to hear the gustard x20... I admit, I want to give DS another stab at it. But I won't hold my breath too long. I suppose I could add one of those to my system for a reference DS dac if it's as good as I think it may be.  I want to hear it first before I buy it!


----------



## frodeni

bimmer100 said:


> .... the Asus rampage IV black series motherboard ...
> 
> I've tried some very fancy USB cables and just ended up going back to basics. Spending too much yielded no significant results or worse results. ..


 
 Worse in what way? USB on the Oppo HA-1 gain a lot from a better USB cable, using the same MB.
  
 Edit: Hit the control enter, instead of the shift enter, chopping down the quote. Sorry.


----------



## rb2013

Well tried the Canare AES to spdif with a 10dB attenuator yesterday on the Hydra Z
  
 Nice -another incremental improvement - a touch smoother.  Certainly no detraction;
  
 So far the ranking:
 #1 AES output - AES to SPDIF coax (Canare adapter) 10dB BNC atten, BNC to RCA
 #2 BNC output - 6dB atten - BNC to RCA SPDIF coax
 #3 SPDIF Coax straight.
  
 Not huge differences - and I could happily listen to any - but what the heck why not.  The biggest difference is a touch more smoothness (I mean just creamy smooth), a touch more detail, a bit wider sound stage.
  
 Now the caveat - this worked on my APL SPDIF coax input.  It did not work with the Breeze and DAC60 (an older spdif coax receiver), so may not work in all cases.  The Breeze has no BNC outputs - so couldn't try that.
  
 So for the PUC2  - older DACs may not even work at all - since it only has AES outputs - unless they have AES inputs (pretty rare).
  
 Cheers!


----------



## bimmer100

frodeni said:


> Worse in what way? USB on the Oppo HA-1 gain a lot from a better USB cable, using the same MB.
> 
> Edit: Hit the control enter, instead of the shift enter, chopping down the quote. Sorry.




I don't want to mention the brand name of cables but some very expensive USB cables have resulted in thin sound in comparison to a supra cable or even a decent Pangea USB cable. 
Between all USB, they are not something I would say is worth spending more than 50usd. My supra sounded as good or better than some cables that were in the range of 500-600usd. I would be upset if I was to burn my money on such a cable. I have yet to hear a better USB cable than the supra. I would like to try the Gemini cable from ifi since its split and I could likely see a potential benefit for my setup. I don't need power for USB, but I won't hold my breath. I would love to borrow one to test. 
Either way, I would rather spend my money elsewhere than on a USB cable is my point. 
I'm sold on supra and will only buy their USB cables from now on. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I've tried over a dozen USB cables and admittedly spent too much on some of them. Way too much.  oddly one of the more expensive cables was even so bad I experienced something I've never experienced... Actually caused stutters in the sound. Changing the cable instantly fixed the problem. This brand name is actually one of the most known names and also most overpriced cable manufacturers I know. I refuse to buy their products ever again. I won't buy into the hype anymore.


----------



## frodeni

bimmer100 said:


> ... I won't buy into the hype anymore.


 
  
 Well, this is sort of the issue at the moment. I plugged the AQ Coffee into my rig, and everything seemed to be pulled forward in the sound stage. Pretty far forward. On the MM400, instruments appeared rendered closer to, as some sort of haze was removed. A lot was removed from the sound as well, things I had been given as a vital part of the music. It was baffling. To me that is. And a bit emberassing. After all, I take great pride at being good at this.
  
 My point is, that usually, people just state that "it was better", "it clearly helped", or "gave me vinyl sound". Being fooled by digital noise before, it would come as no surprise to me, if an increase in digital noise resulted in "vinyl sound". I do not doubt the experience, I am just not sure what it means, and really have nothing to go by to analyze what it might be.
  
 And, buying into the hype, would easily leave me pennyless. Buying by education, sure is not easy. To me, the nature of digital noise, and its effect on the rendering of music, seems to confuse more people than just me. There sure is differences, but if those are improvements or not, is a bit unclear to me.
  
 I do know, that the AQ Coffee effect made sense to me sonicly. Everything fell into place. But a lot of "air" was lost, as was some of the dept of the rendering. Some of the sounds that was lost, sounded like environmental parts of the recordings, like acoustics surrounding the musicians. The Oppo also went darker in tone. In particular, perk became a lot more distinct and detailed. Like cymbals. They have a different imaging by now, as they are more precisely rendered, and use less width.
  
 More "Vinyl"? Probably not. Vinyl was and is full of noise. But articulation and accuracy seems to improve on all fronts. But some traits that I used to value, that would bring me closer to vinyl, are lost. To me that seems correct, I just do not know yet.
  
 I will keep reading your feedback in here. To me it would be useful with more specific feedback, as to what in particular sounded different. Something I might compare on my rig. Anyway, thanks to all of you for sharing.


----------



## rb2013

Well the iDAC2 arrived - hooked it up in the main system as a DDC - very nice.  Lots of clarity ad detail - with some burnin it should open up some more.
  
 Tonight I'll try it with the iPurifier.  Right now using the Forza Audio Works Split Copper cable - the power from the smaller TeraDak.  This one is a definite contender.


----------



## frodeni

bimmer100 said:


> ... My supra sounded as good or better than some cables that were in the range of 500-600usd. I would be upset if I was to burn my money on such a cable. I have yet to hear a better USB cable than the supra. ...


 
  
 I do not know this supra. Maybe I should give it a go? If you please, could you point me to what cable you speak of?


----------



## Noodlz

@frodeni i just recently bought one of the supra cables & still waiting for it.
  
 Heres's the info:
 http://www.jenving.com/products/view/usb-2.0-a-b-1001908381
  
 here's where i bought it:
 https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/wire/cable/supra-high-speed-usb-2.0-a-b/
  
 hope that helps


----------



## Khragon

Planning to get this to use with Audio-gd Master 11, can anyone tell me if the HDMI is compatible?
  
 Thanks


----------



## frodeni

noodlz said:


> @frodeni i just recently bought one of the supra cables & still waiting for it.
> 
> Heres's the info:
> http://www.jenving.com/products/view/usb-2.0-a-b-1001908381
> ...


 
  
 Thanks. I will try to find one where I live first.


----------



## riffer

khragon said:


> Planning to get this to use with Audio-gd Master 11, can anyone tell me if the HDMI is compatible?
> 
> Thanks


 


 Assuming it has the same board as the Master 7, no.  See extensive posting earlier in this thread wrt this and DACLadder's mods.


----------



## MikeBruce

You know this site is totally great and then you guys start posting about how USB cables can change sound.. NOPE!  UGGGH
  
 Keep it real please.


----------



## bimmer100

khragon said:


> Planning to get this to use with Audio-gd Master 11, can anyone tell me if the HDMI is compatible?
> 
> Thanks



Talk to Dacladder about this.
I have the master11 and an IC replacement was needed to allow for proper compatibility. Or you could make a custom hdmi cable with twisted wires to make it compatible.
 Dacladder is fully aware of what is needed to mod the u12 to function with audio-Gd products.
It's worth looking into this further.

FYI... You can plug the u12 in as is with no mods and get sound but it will be reversed Left to right and I believe one other thing I can't recall now. Like I just said, ask DacLadder the details of this mod and seriously consider going this route! I am glad I did. It's a great pairing with the master11!
I've gone as far to have the IC replaced to fix the hdmi wiring pinout, also replaced the clocks with crystek's and sockets to allow to reinstall original crystals for comparison, as well as the large caps. I'm in the process of moving now and won't be able to actually test these new mods until later this month. So far all I've tested is the u12 with the basic IC swap. Things sound very musical and that alone I preferred the u12 over the amanero but have to be honest. The difference was not really anything other than more compatible. Hence when I decided to go further with the mods and have the clocks upgraded with crystek's and caps uprated/replaced. I will pair the u12 with a Paul pang V3 OCXO USB card. Hoping to post results at the end of the month or early next month. I'm patiently waiting to finish my move! Hah

I think you are definitely considering a good DDC for your master11... Or just go for the hydraZ if you can afford it... Personally I can't justify that price at the current state I'm in with recent medical bills. But I'm pretty sure the hydraZ has a dip switch that allows for compatibility with audio-gd's I2S pinout. If only gustard was smart enough to include that feature!


----------



## bimmer100

frodeni said:


> Thanks. I will try to find one where I live first.







frodeni said:


> Well, this is sort of the issue at the moment. I plugged the AQ Coffee into my rig, and everything seemed to be pulled forward in the sound stage. Pretty far forward. On the MM400, instruments appeared rendered closer to, as some sort of haze was removed. A lot was removed from the sound as well, things I had been given as a vital part of the music. It was baffling. To me that is. And a bit emberassing. After all, I take great pride at being good at this.
> 
> My point is, that usually, people just state that "it was better", "it clearly helped", or "gave me vinyl sound". Being fooled by digital noise before, it would come as no surprise to me, if an increase in digital noise resulted in "vinyl sound". I do not doubt the experience, I am just not sure what it means, and really have nothing to go by to analyze what it might be.
> 
> ...




Sadly the company you speak of is the one I refuse to do business with again as maybe I just had a faulty cable but it cause two different Dac's I had to experience digital noise and stutters. I'm convinced their quality control missed it. But for the insane price I paid, it really stung. I don't believe USB cables are worth much and nobody should think throwin money at the problem will actually produce better sound to any significant notable level. I personally believe 1-2% is all you can expect. That would be more depending on if your USB cable is proper 90ohm impedance as if you vary either way then on the receiving end the PHY IC that is already a noisy beast will work even harder and create even more noise that translates to audible noise and is directly why people believe one cable sounds better Than the next. The second reason is separating power from the cable, if your Dac is powered via USB? I'm sorry, that just complicates things and having cleaner power can help sound quality. None of these have to do with the cable that much other than the 90ohm rating. If manufactures keep the specs tight then all USB cables will sound the same. But if it's not shielded then it's possible to get the power line to create noise audibly. Anyhow, I prefer Supra after doing a lot of research, they make a perfect USB Cable I would use to compare to any priced USB cable. I don't think anyone should say a USB cable will make a huge difference. Just buy a quality one you know is built within spec and you will know it's not the bottle neck. For 40-50 bucks a supra cable is most definitely reasonable. 90ohm tight specs and shielding is very good. 
Hopefully you don't have to use USB power, as that's the other complication. My gear is audio-Gd and all the USB is self powered with linear power. 
I do no guarantee you will hear improvements if you get a supra USB cable, in fact likely you won't hear any differences unless your other cable varies a lot more with the specifications. Some say 90ohm +/- 20ohms which seems bad imho. Supra is supposed to not vary in its specifications. It's really the PHY IC that causes the audible difference people say their USB cable is responsible for. The USB regen Amber helps eliminate that but in many systems it's not needed and nothing more than a quality USB cable can tame the problem to ideal conditions. Most USB cables are fine and I hate these debates about cables and people claiming their 200 dollar or even 1000 dollar cable sounds so smooth and so detailed! Meh... Supra and call it a day. Anything more is absolutely hogwash imho and experience. I've owned a dozen cables varying in price ranges I won't admit to anyone. Sold everything except my supra cables for my best gear and Pangea USB cable for other devices. I like nice quality at least. Please please please don't reply to my post telling me digital cables make no difference, I don't want to have this argument. I generally agree to a certain level. Basically it's not an audible difference in 99% of most cases. I just don't want any potential bottle neck and choose to buy cables I know that are built perfectly to Spec and beyond all while not breaking the bank in the slightest. Do your own research. There is a great article below to read...
http://www.audiostream.com/content/uptone-audio-usb-regen

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, I just share my own experiences and am not looking for another cable debate/fight.

Digital cables are kinda silly in general. 

Headphone cables on the other hand, I can say are worth it. I'm a big fan of Trevor's work @ Norne Audio and have clearly heard audible improvements from many of his cable designs. I can't see how arguing about his cables would ever lead to anything other than an agreement that his long hours of research and development with wires has truly paid off and delivered a very high quality product that produces real results tailored to each headphones. I back him and his products 100% and am a customer for life by upgrading all my headphones with Norne cables. I don't think anything has ever been subtle when upgrading with his products. 


USB... Well... Budget and quality. My own experiences of owning over a dozen USB cables from different manufacturers and varying greatly in their claims and performance. Nothing stood out other than supra. As it's simply a well made cable that destroys all the competition with budget in mind that allows anyone to afford a proper cable. Do you need one? Possibly no. Are you like me and want to be sure the cable is not the weak link? Yep. Pick one up and you be the judge. PLEASE compare it to your unobtanium coated USB platinum and diamond infused cable that is dipped in moon dust and unicorn horn shavings made from Galileo himself. 
Supra is no nonsense pure USB.


----------



## Khragon

Thanks for the information. Can you tell me which IC to replace and with what? Is it easy or is it a resolder job?

Thanks


----------



## rb2013

The second Breeze Audio arrived - this one with the Talema transformer.  Cold out of the box - even better the BingZi version.  Now with a day's run in - superb!
  
 Very smooth - smoother in fact them the U12 with upgraded caps.  Excellent detail!
  
 Will give this one a few weeks run time then put it up against the Hydra Z in my main system.
  
 So so far here is the shootout line-up:
  
 Gustard U12 - stock
 Melodious MX-U8 HW caps
 Breeze Audio - stock (with Talema)
 Hydra Z - TeraDak X1, 30W, Lith -ion battery PS's
 iFi iDAC2 - TeraDak X1, Lith- ion Battery PS
  
 I will write this up as a separate thread.


----------



## riffer

khragon said:


> Thanks for the information. Can you tell me which IC to replace and with what? Is it easy or is it a resolder job?
> 
> Thanks


 

 It has already been covered;  Part numbers, pictures, everything.  Just go back a few pages or search on DACLadders posts.


----------



## DACLadder

khragon said:


> Planning to get this to use with Audio-gd Master 11, can anyone tell me if the HDMI is compatible?
> 
> Thanks


 
 The U12 HDMI port works, sort of, with AGD products but the U12's interface is not PS Audio compatible on the HDMI port.   The L - R channels are swapped and the absolute audio phase is 180 deg out.  You can build a special HDMI cable to correct polarity of two of the four HDMI signals, rework the U12, or just simply swap the speaker wires L - R and connect + to - and vise versa.  
  
 A chip swap in the U12 was the best solution for me as I can use other PS Audio compatible HDMI I2S DACs and standard HDMI cables.  See this post....
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/1905#post_11703375


----------



## Khragon

Thanks DACLadder,
  
 Doesn't look like that bad for a job for an IC swap, but I dont' see from the link/picture you provided where you put the bypass cap?  Do you mind posting a picture for it for me?
  
 Thanks.


----------



## DeLuX

rb2013 said:


> The second Breeze Audio arrived - this one with the Talema transformer.  Cold out of the box - even better the BingZi version.  Now with a day's run in - superb!
> 
> Very smooth - smoother in fact them the U12 with upgraded caps.  Excellent detail!
> 
> ...




Do you have a link for this or did you custom order it?


----------



## rb2013

delux said:


> Do you have a link for this or did you custom order it?




Here is the Ebay link for the std version.  But just message Doukmall the seller for the upgraded Talema version - it is extra.  Of course the std can be easily upgraded down the road as the Talema is a drop in replacement.  Unlike the Gustard U12 which uses a non-std pin configuration and a cheaper OEM transformer.  This is one of the reasons that attracted me to the MX-U8 to begin with - it comes with the Talema std.
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271948361421?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## rb2013

I noticed the Talema version of the Breeze has cooling slots on the top - otherwise they look identical.  Note the Breeze has no fuse - unlike the U12 or MX-U8.  So a surge protector at min is needed, I have mine pulgged into the excellent Art Audio PB4X4 Pro with common and differential mode RFI/EMI noise filtering.
  
 Here is the inside of the upgrade version:


 Next to the MX-U8


 The two Talema look to be identical models.


----------



## DeLuX

rb2013 said:


> Here is the Ebay link for the std version.  But just message Doukmall the seller for the upgraded Talema version - it is extra.  Of course the std and can be easily upgraded down the road as the Talema is a drop in replacement.  Unlike the Gustard U12 which uses a non-std pin configuration and a cheaper OEM transformer.  This is one of the reasons that attracted me to the MX-U8 to begin with - it comes with the Talema std.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/271948361421?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT




Would you recommend the breeze with the upgrade over the MX-U8 std? I like the look of the MX-U8 better but, of course, sound is more important


----------



## motberg

khragon said:


> Planning to get this to use with Audio-gd Master 11, can anyone tell me if the HDMI is compatible?
> 
> Thanks


 

 Probably not - but I can confirm the Tanly can be custom ordered for Audio-GD compatibility...
 (Also the MX-U8, but that i2S output is RJ45, and seems you ordered the M11 HDMI i2S option)
  
  
 For the USB cables, I had the Supra, Furutech, Gemini and the PPA dual... they all sounded different.
 The Supra was the best value, but the PPA offered additional detail that was put to good use with a REGEN..


----------



## rb2013

delux said:


> Would you recommend the breeze with the upgrade over the MX-U8 std? I like the look of the MX-U8 better but, of course, sound is more important


 

 Ok sound wise YES!  But there may be an issue with i2s - it has the output (RJ) but maybe not the right pin configuration.
  
 Not an issue for me using AES and SPDIF coax.
  
 Boy it sure sounds sweet - big holographic presentation.   Can't beat the price.
  
 I think I will leave the stock Xpro caps in there - just sublime sounding.
  
 Second unit installed perfectly - playing now a full day without a hitch or unlock.  Easy-Peasy


----------



## rb2013

motberg said:


> Probably not - but I can confirm the Tanly can be custom ordered for Audio-GD compatibility...
> (Also the MX-U8, but that i2S output is RJ45, and seems you ordered the M11 HDMI i2S option)
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have and had about a half dozen USB cables  - the Synergistic Research Tesla Tricon was the previous best - but finicky - on some computers hard to get it to be recognized.
  
 The other nice cable is the Silnote Poseidon.
  
 But this inexpensive Forza Audio Works twin copper split cable is excellent - and you don't have to worry about ps contamination (at least from the pc ps lines).  The Breeze and MX-U8 work great.  The Gustard U12 has that darn USB switch - so it must have USB power to work - but then the Forza is a great solution just use a XOAMI 16,000 Lith ion battery for the electrical feed.


----------



## DACLadder

khragon said:


> Thanks DACLadder,
> 
> Doesn't look like that bad for a job for an IC swap, but I dont' see from the link/picture you provided where you put the bypass cap?  Do you mind posting a picture for it for me?
> 
> Thanks.


 

 The bypass cap is a tiny surface mount version between pins 4 and 5.  I added it because the traces from supplied U12 cap are longer than I would like to see.  It is optional of course but recommended by LVDS chip suppliers.  Follow the arrow below.  It is soldered directly to the chip power supply pins. 
  

  
 .


----------



## pigfatcat

Did I get this right: You preferred the Elfidelity over the U12? If I got that right, how did they sound together ?
  
 I ahve tried them toigether - further improvement from U12 alone - better dynamics, accuracy and naturalness . But then, using Elfidelity alone is still on the whole better then using them together- this may be due to the fact that the HD USB input of Hugo is actually better than the coaxial input .
  
 I believe time will be coming soon - that DAC makers will absorb the experience and technology of all these interphases we are talking and trying . The next generation of DACs will have internal digital interphases as good as hydra Z , Berkeley or at least up to the level of  U12 and  Melodious , such that USB/I2S is the natural way to go , and that coaxial will fade away .


----------



## rb2013

pigfatcat said:


> Did I get this right: You preferred the Elfidelity over the U12? If I got that right, how did they sound together ?
> 
> I ahve tried them toigether - further improvement from U12 alone - better dynamics, accuracy and naturalness . But then, using Elfidelity alone is still on the whole better then using them together- this may be due to the fact that the HD USB input of Hugo is actually better than the coaxial input .
> 
> I believe time will be coming soon - that DAC makers will absorb the experience and technology of all these interphases we are talking and trying . The next generation of DACs will have internal digital interphases as good as hydra Z , Berkeley or at least up to the level of  U12 and  Melodious , such that USB/I2S is the natural way to go , and that coaxial will fade away .


 

 i2s has been around a long time - in almost all CD players.  Right now for external connections it's a mess of incompatibilities.  Good old SPDIF coax lives on and is the one universal standard across DAC's old and new.  It is a bit more work to achieve excellent results - but they can certainly be had.
  
 Funny reading this excellent 2014 review of the hottest new R2R DAC Aqua HiFi's $5000 LaScala MkII  the reviewers used....wait for it....SPDIF coax!  Can't be all bad 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/aqua/6.html


----------



## genclaymore

Coaxial and spdif is gonna be around for a long time as it still have it uses such as people who plug their Sound blaster Z ,asus xonar or whatever sound cards to their external dac's to send the card software suite features over such as SBX surround,CMSS3D headphone or dolby headphone. If analog stayed around for a long long time then i doubt Coax and optical will go away. Besides they can co-exist with each other.  The chances of Coax/optical going away like the dinosaurs including analog would be like the chances of mainstream sound cards getting AES/I2S very slim, since analog doesn't want to die off. I sure it will evidently happen just not any time soon.


----------



## vincponc2610

Do you know what are the regulators ?
 I see LM2941S which is given of a ripple rejection of 0.005% to 0.02%, so it gives for 5V, betwen 250uV and 1000uV, which is far from stellar performance.
 http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm2941.pdf
 But it is the first stage regulator, so not so important.
 What is the second stage regulator ?


rb2013 said:


> I noticed the Talema version of the Breeze has cooling slots on the top - otherwise they look identical.  Note the Breeze has no fuse - unlike the U12 or MX-U8.  So a surge protector at min is needed, I have mine pulgged into the excellent Art Audio PB4X4 Pro with common and differential mode RFI/EMI noise filtering.
> 
> Here is the inside of the upgrade version:
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

vincponc2610 said:


> Do you know what are the regulators ?
> I see LM2941S which is given of a ripple rejection of 0.005% to 0.02%, so it gives for 5V, betwen 250uV and 1000uV, which is far from stellar performance.
> http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm2941.pdf
> But it is the first stage regulator, so not so important.
> What is the second stage regulator ?


 

 @b0bb described the power supply as a two stage.  But I disagree on the LM2941S as 'far from stellar' PSRR - look at the freq plot on the data sheet.  Really outstanding versus the LT1963.
  
 http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm2941.pdf
 LM2941s PSRR 75dB@10kHz, 65dB@100kHz, 70dB@1mHz
  
 http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/1963aff.pdf
 LT1963 PSRR 50dB@10kHz, 35dB@100kHz, 25dB @1mHz


----------



## rb2013

genclaymore said:


> Coaxial and spdif is gonna be around for a long time as it still have it uses such as people who plug their Sound blaster Z ,asus xonar or whatever sound cards to their external dac's to send the card software suite features over such as SBX surround,CMSS3D headphone or dolby headphone. If analog stayed around for a long long time then i doubt Coax and optical will go away. Besides they can co-exist with each other.  The chances of Coax/optical going away like the dinosaurs including analog would be like the chances of mainstream sound cards getting AES/I2S very slim, since analog doesn't want to die off. I sure it will evidently happen just not any time soon.


 

 I agree - reading the excellent 6moons review of the hottest R2R DAC right now - the Aqua HiFi La Scala MkII (Darko's new #1 DAC http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/)
  
 Srajan writes this:


> *Buzz-word compliance* is its de rigueur mortis and mega pixel count. It preys on misinformed consumers who shop by the numbers. Hence by mid 2014, AMR's iFi division had gone positively purple with glee to announce 768kHz PCM and DSD _octa compliance_. By then DSD256 whose very first commercial files had just begun to appear was already passé. DSD512 was the new 'in' to remind us that all life is cyclical. It spirals out of control. Then it collapses and begins anew. On cyclical, in the crusades Christianity had its holy wars. Today it's the turn of Islam. In hifi the former were the THD and IMD wars. The latter's present equivalents target digital sample rates. Faced by such accelerating madness, Aqua pray for all-out peace. Their _assalaamu a'laikum_ or _pax vobiscum_ is refusal to participate. Opt out. Say no to DSD and anything above 24/192. How refreshing. If John Darko's assessment had it right, this decision was far from counter-productive. Quite possibly it was the crucial enabler. Obviously neither Metrum's Hex nor Aqua's La Voce had upsampled, quadrupled or DSD'd. Yet on those I was sold already from close familiarity. Time out then from the digital hamster mill which would turn us into _octagenarians_ well before our time. Mind, I'm not singling out iFi. They were simply first to hit those particular numbers. More will undoubtedly follow. That's the whole mechanism of fashion. It's a lemming brigade.
> 
> 
> But it's not as though fashion were bad per se. Sometimes it's simply good to return to basics and reset one's odometer. 00000. Today that means an old-style approach to D/A conversion, albeit implemented in the 21st century with modern parts and sonic references. One might exclude the glass bottles from the 'modern' appellation but then remembers that their type remains available in current production.


 
 BTW I just got a iFi iDac2 to use as a portable HP amp.  My tube DAC's crush it as a DAC in SQ.  It's a pretty good DDC though.  Very versital unit.  And worth every penny of the $279.
  
 And this new $5,000 La Scala Mkii - DAC el supremo - does not do DSD or i2s - just great sound!  PCM over SPDIF coax.


> *Final words.* This Italian deck won't do native DSD or DXD at 352.8kHz though it will surely process such data converted to 176.4kHz PCM. But what it may lack in fashion flash to keep up with the restless digital Joneses shopping by the numbers, it more than makes up for with richly textured highly resolved very dynamic performance. That taps into more of the artistic energy that's actually encoded in our music and waiting to _communicate_ with us. With a very capable fixed-gain linestage built in, this digital-to-analog converter is very full-bodied and dynamically charged to ideally complement lean speed-tuned systems. The only context where its strong contributions of heft and mass could add up excessively are already very warm dense systems. Then the leaner La Voce II would be preferable. The La Scala II is very well built, comprehensively socketed, fairly priced and fully modular to account for unexpected advances down the road. Finally, it showed me enough of a lead over four strong resident competitors in this general mid 4-figures price sector to firmly demand an award. Best I've heard in my system as John Darko put it? For the money, absolutely and without the shadow of a doubt. Put my name down too on this growing list of outspoken admirers for the Aqua Hifi La Scala II!


----------



## Wynnytsky

pigfatcat said:


> But then, using Elfidelity alone is still on the whole better then using them together- this may be due to the fact that the HD USB input of Hugo is actually better than the coaxial input .


 
  The reminds me of a Mass Fidelity Relay bluetooth DAC.  It's hardly special so you'd think that if used only as a bluetooth receiver (connecting it's coax output to a decent DAC) then the results would be better.  However it's coax output was so bad that I was better off just outputting analog from it's integrated DAC.
  
 Quote:


pigfatcat said:


> I believe time will be coming soon - that DAC makers will absorb the experience and technology of all these interphases we are talking and trying . The next generation of DACs will have internal digital interphases as good as hydra Z , Berkeley or at least up to the level of  U12 and  Melodious , such that USB/I2S is the natural way to go , and that coaxial will fade away .


 
 The time is already here.  You can pay a premium for the best technology has to offer today in one elegant package.  Then in 6 to 12mo a USB transport will hit the market that can further improve that DAC.  You can sell the DAC at a loss and get the latest model, though it would be cheaper just to buy the new USB transport and a cable.  You once again have the best sound, but you lost the elegant package.  If you accept that the USB transports are evolving faster than DACs then you can embrace these upgrades without eating a huge loss on each DAC sale.  rb2013 using a Lite DAC-60 (15yr old R2R chip) is a terrific example of putting money where it matters.
  
 Integrated solutions will always have the advantage of shortest signal path.  I'm hoping I2S will prove to be a super bus that erases that advantage, but I'm already smitten with I'm hearing over AES.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> The time is already here.  You can pay a premium for the best technology has to offer today in one elegant package.  Then in 6 to 12mo a USB transport will hit the market that can further improve that DAC.  You can sell the DAC at a loss and get the latest model, though it would be cheaper just to buy the new USB transport and a cable.  You once again have the best sound, but you lost the elegant package.  If you accept that the USB transports are evolving faster than DACs then you can embrace these upgrades without eating a huge loss on each DAC sale.  rb2013 using a Lite DAC-60 (15yr old R2R chip) is a terrific example of putting money where it matters.
> 
> Integrated solutions will always have the advantage of shortest signal path.  I'm hoping I2S will prove to be a super bus that erases that advantage, but I'm already smitten with I'm hearing over AES.


 

 Well I only bought the R2R DAC60last year - so it's not some left over legacy piece from 15yrs ago.  And after exhaustive research chose it over many others for my mod project.  The Advantage of R2R DACs is well known vs Delta Sigma - just R2R's are difficult and expensive to make. BTW the incredible Holy Grail tubes I have running in the DAC60 are really 40 yrs old!
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
  
 So the 'newest' technology doesn't always mean better.
  
 BTW the Aqua HiFi that is setting all the reviewers raving about it  - is a brand new design.  Using the same R2R PCM1704UK chips as the DAC60.

 As Srajan points out this 'latest greatest - got to have the newest whiz bang technology' is just marketing hype.  Who cares about 786K PCM or 512DSD if a great DAC doing 44k or 96k sounds way better.   To many get sucked up in to the hype of DSD and i2s.
  
 From Darko's review of the non-i2s, non-DSD LaScala MkII.
 http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/03/aqua-hifi-la-scala-mkii-dac-review/


> There’s no doubt that this is the finest sounding DAC to date to grace my life/system/website with its presence. Prior to that it was Resonessence Labs’ INVICTA Mirus (US$4995). Aqua Hifi provide us with proof positive that the return on moving well beyond a $5k spend is very real. VERY REAL.


 
 For those interested in R2R versus Delta Sigma DACs here is a great explanation of the difference.  I have one type of DAC of each.  My D-S APL costs 5x more then my heavily modded R2R DAC60.  To my ears they are competitive with each other.  APL had to go to great lengths to get the sound quality from the AKM 32bit  D-S dacs (like running 6 DACs per channel to reduce noise).
 More on the APL approach - the NWO is a $30,000 unit  - I have a jr version that cost $6,500.
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/aplhifi/nwo30go.html
  
 http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm


> R2R  In the CD-format chapter you have seen that digital numbers are translated into a staircase signal, and by rounding the steps, we get something that pretty much resembles the originally captured signal.
> This translation process from numbers into voltage steps, is what happens in a R2R DA converter which is sometimes also called a "ladder-DAC" or "multibit-DAC", as resistors (the R's in R2R) are configured as an ascending series of voltage dividers.
> Such a R2R converter is a static device, in that it is able to generate a clean voltage (with 16 bits resolution there are 65536 different voltages) and hold that voltage until another number is converted, or if numbers repeat - for an infinitely long time, while maintaining an extremely low noise level.
> In order to achieve a certain level of performance, the resistors (R's) inside the converter chip must be precisely trimmed, which can make a device very expensive to manufacture, especially when true 24-bit resolution is required.
> ...


----------



## Wynnytsky

rb2013 said:


> Well I only bought the R2R DAC60last year - so it's not some left over legacy piece from 15yrs ago.


 
 I found a link to your DAC from 2005 when it only cost $368.
 http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48448
 The DAC can still be had for $464 at china-hifi-audio (the link you sent me)
 Post-mod your DAC is keeping pace with a $6500 unit.  Score.
  
 My intro to DSD was on a friend's modded Lampi 5.  For those albums that we had in both pcm and sacd ISO I always preferred the pcm.  I figured if that DAC couldn't make DSD shine then I either wasn't using JRiver correctly or adequate DSD hardware starts somewhere above a Lampi.  I think lampi uses a Phillips TDA1541A bitstream chip.
  
 I can't reflect on I2S because I don't even have a tracking number yet.  I expect it to be another fruit in my audio basket and I'm looking forward to breaking it down with friends.  I love stuff that can be tried at a push of a button (no pulling wires or even stopping the music)


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> I found a link to your DAC from 2005 when it only cost $368.
> http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48448
> The DAC can still be had for $464 at china-hifi-audio (the link you sent me)
> Post-mod your DAC is keeping pace with a $6500 unit.  Score.
> ...


 

 You are right they have been around a while - I put around $800 so far into the mods.  The sound is extraordinary - especially with these HG tubes and the best DDCs.
 My APL is a little quicker the DAC60 has a richer tonal signature.  I enjoy both immensely.
  
 I've had around a dozen other DACs and CD players before.  They just didn't do it for me - and my analog rig was still my favorite source.  But what I have now - my digital/music server sources are better.  And get 90% of my listening time.  That's quite an accomplishment.  They share a similar naturalness and ease, coupled with great detail, and a rich natural tone.  Now the digital having a lower floor noise and better defined bass.
  
 Zanden uses the R2R TDA1541A double crown in their statement $15,000 5000 signature NOS DAC.  But others have used the PCM1704UK with great effect like Audio-gd Ref 7, and the Lite DAC-83.
  
 I laugh when Srajan speaks of the HiFi wars of the 1970's because I remember them - it was all about IM and THD measurements.  Today it's DSD and i2s, which are fine - and can produce good sound - but not the absolute necessity that some of the hype would lead you to believe.
  
 Some things have proven the test of time - and some things have improved (the results from these DDC experiments is proving very rewarding).


----------



## rb2013

There are issues with DSD regarding intermodulation distortion from the extreme noise created in the higher frequencies - same applies to D-S Dacs.  And the hard filtering to remove it.
  
 From the excellent whitepaper on the DxD recording standard. http://www.merging.com/uploads/assets/Merging_pdfs/dxd_Resolution_v3.5.pdf

 Since decibels are a log power function - with each 3dB an approx doubling of the noise.  The Noise generated by DSD is 50dB greater at 40kHz and climbs to 60 dB.  Although out of human hearing range this noise still can modulate back into the listenable audio range. 
  
 Decibels as a log power function - check out 50dB and 60dB

  
 Now where DSD (and higher res PCM) succeed is in pulse response -  with a more accurate recreation.  Less pre and post ringing (this in and of itself can cause IM distortions.)
  
 So it seems the best comprise is PCM at 96k, 176k and 192k or DxD.  This is from a recording rate/and method.  But shows the noise that this D-S and DSD 1 bit processing can generate.


----------



## rb2013

So the whole idea of this thread was to find a decent solution for these R2R DACs for computer audio.  The quality of the sound has been way beyond my expectations.  USB to SPDIF coax - so mission accomplished.
  
 Another great newer version of the Lite DAC60 - modded by Monarchy to use as a pre-amp as well.
  
Congrates to Monarchy for the Absolute Sound 2015 Golden Ear Award - this what Dick Olsher had to say about the NM24 (based on the Lite DAC60)
 



> The NM24 teaches us three important lessons regarding digital-to-analog converter design.  First, there's still plenty of magic left in Burr-Brown's 24-bit/96kHz PCM1704 chip, the world's most sophisticated R2R DAC chip, which Texas Instruments came close to discontinuing in 2012.  Second, a tube buffer is sonically superior to an op-amp buffer, as can easily be ascertained by auditioning both built-in buffers: an AD811 video op-amp and a 6922 triode-based SRPP.  Third, it is much easier (i.e., less costly) to design  a good sounding DAC using an R2R chip than it is with the currently ubiquitous delta-sigma type.  There are only two digital inputs (Toslink and coax), so you'll need a good external asynchronous USB link for computer audio.  As compensation, you can use the line-level pre-amp outputs as a headphone amplifier via a suitable adapter cable.  The sound is exceedingly analog-like, as the NM24 avoids the halo of brightness that permeates the harmonic textures of so many delta-sigma based DACs.  You'll have to look in the neighborhood of $5k to exceed it's performance. (Review forthcoming).


----------



## vincponc2610

rb2013 said:


> @b0bb described the power supply as a two stage.  But I disagree on the LM2941S as 'far from stellar' PSRR - look at the freq plot on the data sheet.  Really outstanding versus the LT1963.
> 
> http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm2941.pdf
> LM2941s PSRR 75dB@10kHz, 65dB@100kHz, 70dB@1mHz
> ...


 
 Good point. I didn't see the PSSR.
  
 BTW, the Breeze looks like to use the two windings of the transformer for different sections of the circuit.
 One seems to go to XMOS, the other going to the clocks, with each path its own set of rectifier (any ref?) and regulator (lm2941).
  
 So, what is the second stage regulator ?
 ADP150 like U8 or something else ?


----------



## Core32

So, will all the churn in this thread, is the Gustard U12 the only USB interface tried that has the rate display?
 That's important to me as my DAC doesn't display this "intuitively".


----------



## DACLadder

core32 said:


> So, will all the churn in this thread, is the Gustard U12 the only USB interface tried that has the rate display?
> That's important to me as my DAC doesn't display this "intuitively".


 
  
 The Off Ramp 5 has LEDs that indicate the playback sampling rate.  Definitely something that adds cost to a product but I appreciate this feature in the U12.  ​


----------



## vincponc2610

rb2013 said:


> Ok running the Breeze Audio XMOS DDC for a few hours and all I have to say is Wow!~  I feel easily beats the Gustard and I'm thinking better then the Melodious.
> 
> So silky smoooth - but detailed - the best the tonal richness is awesome!  Rock solid so far no unlock or pops/clicks at all.
> 
> ...


 
 What are the medium/small regulators ?
 Can you write their references ?


----------



## PATB

Does the Breeze Audio come with Windows Vista drivers?


----------



## prot

> Second, a tube buffer is sonically superior to an op-amp buffer, as can easily be ascertained by auditioning both built-in buffers: an AD811 video op-amp and a 6922 triode-based SRPP.



People shouldnt be able to do such logical leaps without breaking their necks.. or at least a finger or something  Humanity would be sooo much better in that case. 
No idea who wrote that stuff but I wouldnt even trust that guy with a mop review.


----------



## rb2013

patb said:


> Does the Breeze Audio come with Windows Vista drivers?


Yes, the drivers work with Vista. XP maybe an issue.


----------



## m0reilly

prot said:


> People shouldnt be able to do such logical leaps without breaking their necks.. or at least a finger or something
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 can you expound on your opinion a bit more? there tend to be more opamp systems around, so many never hear what a quality tube output at line level sounds like. there may be less noticed quality via tubes when using cans, as opposed to filling a room with hifi, but really, one would have to experience both before making a blanket judgement. i would presume the author of the statement quoted would have some experience of both environs under his or her belt before publishing such.


----------



## prot

m0reilly said:


> can you expound on your opinion a bit more? there tend to be more opamp systems around, so many never hear what a quality tube output at line level sounds like. there may be less noticed quality via tubes when using cans, as opposed to filling a room with hifi, but really, one would have to experience both before making a blanket judgement. i would presume the author of the statement quoted would have some experience of both environs under his or her belt before publishing such.




that author tested One opamp vs. One tube stage and concluded that All tube outputs are better. Cannot really expand on that type of major cluelessness.
There are opamp stages, tube stages, mixed stages and some that do not use any of those ... afaik, there is no way to make any generic statement regarding those designs ... it's all about implementation, component synergies and personal preferences. 

I do have a dual output DAC and already tried 3 opamps and about 10-20 different tubes and combinations thereof. Also did read hundreds of reports about those combinations on the www ... most of them ranging between clueless and comically exaggerated. Yes, there are some differences but really small and subtle, the vast majority of permutations will not pass an even half-serious BT. 
And to fully open the can and take out all of worms, I think approx the same about the "easily audible" SQ differences between DDCs splattered all over this thread ... and yes I did test quite a few of them: u12, modded u12, idsd, hiface, etc. I'd say the differences are mostly "legendary" ... take that as you wish


----------



## rb2013

I had a DAC with both, the Xindak 5. Both opamp and tube buffering of the opamp. I liked the tube buffer better. I had the excellent Eastern Elec Mini Max plus. I used it as a DAC, it had a real ( not just a tube buffer) tube output,, and a opamp output. With the opamp, it had sockets, so you could roll opamps! Just like tubes. I rolled many - but it the end the Burson discretes were the best. And even there the best tubes were just so much more liquid, better tone. 

So in the same exact gear - two direct comparisons of opamps vs tubes. Tubes 2-0. In the case of opamp vs discretes Descretes 1-0. So in my experience tubes are light yrs ahead. I think that the new production tubes are not nearly as good as the old NOS ones. So that will make a difference. I was surprised at the sound differences of the different opamps. But all a flatish sound, cardboard cutout sound staging.


----------



## Wynnytsky

A teflon-cap modded Minimax tube pre visited my room and it shamed my CJ ET3 pre.  Sold that ET3 to Instanbul Turkey.
 I never heard the Minimax DAC but I was told that it was an example of great parts not adding up to a great product.  I also read an unflattering review somewhere.
  
 Last night I heard this:
  
 3ft whiplash polestar => iFi iUSB => 3ft whiplash polestar => PUC2 => 0.5m AES => TubeDAC-11 => (incredible 2ch stereo)
  
 TD11 was my first DAC (uses a Cirrus 4398) which was selling new for $275.
 We had 5 AES cables to roll and we were trying the TD11's tubed and non-tubed outputs.
 I've always preferred the linearity of the non-tubed output and my friend was sort of digging the tubed.
 But the tubed output goes through a built in preamp so you can "dial up" the energy well past the line level of the non-tubed fixed output.  The first problem I notice when cranking up the tubed output is that the bass looses it's structure/definition.
  
 I was impressed that such a cheap DAC didn't stand out as a bottleneck in this system.  Thanks to the PUC2 and the polestar cables I heard it like I've never heard it before.  Switching between ASIO and DS was a very noticeable reduction in reach (for me an indicator that the equipment chain is sufficiently revealing).  We tried other USB cables but nothing crossed the threshold into tear jerking reality like doubled up polestars.  Swapped in the X12 and the euphoria went further (with a small increase in scale).  Voices floated further apart from surrounding instruments.  Layers were strongly disconnected and had no influence on one another.  Hearing that happen inside a small untreated venue showed me I can enjoy this hobby regardless of what room life gives me.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> A teflon-cap modded Minimax tube pre visited my room and it shamed my CJ ET3 pre.  Sold that ET3 to Instanbul Turkey.
> I never heard the Minimax DAC but I was told that it was an example of great parts not adding up to a great product.  I also read an unflattering review somewhere.
> 
> Last night I heard this:
> ...


Cheers to that! The TubeDAC 11 may only have a tube buffered output option ( like my old DAC5). Better tubes will make a difference, but not as big a difference as a pure output.

I have heard many good things about the Polestar USB cable. I should try one!


----------



## h1f1add1cted

Hi guys, up to last week I used my Gustard U12 only with my Linux Daphile system, so it runs out-of-the box with USB class 2.0 driver. But now I want to use it with my Windows 7 x64 machine, is the latest driver the version 2.23 which was on the small CD from the U12 package, or is any newer driver out, which would be more recommend?


----------



## DACLadder

h1f1add1cted said:


> Hi guys, up to last week I used my Gustard U12 only with my Linux Daphile system, so it runs out-of-the box with USB class 2.0 driver. But now I want to use it with my Windows 7 x64 machine, is the latest driver the version 2.23 which was on the small CD from the U12 package, or is any newer driver out, which would be more recommend?


 

 2.26.0 is the latest USB driver (that I know of) with the correct credentials that properly loads onto Windows 8.1 and 10.   You can find it below.  If you can't read Chinese then look for the downward arrow in the top row of buttons.  This is the download button and has "1.2M" in the label description as another clue of what to press.  *下载(1.2M)*
  
http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntDUtqp


----------



## Wynnytsky

it asks for a login and my Chinese sucks hard
 would be nice if you could upload somewhere or email to my username at gmail


----------



## nel1s

So far been enthusiastically following this and other head-fi threads on Asian USB converters and DACs! Not sure this is the right thread, but I have some novice questions that I was hoping to get some answers to.
  
 So with the Yuan being cheap, I took the plunge and ordered a Breeze Audio U8 with Talema transformer (http://world.taobao.com/item/520991006222.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a1z09.2.0.0.NVH1BP&_u=m2f2ti1v689f) and a Gustard DAC X12 (http://world.taobao.com/item/18012850492.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a1z09.2.0.0.NVH1BP&_u=m2f2ti1v7a14). Looks to be good value at a total US$500 + shipping – thanks to all posters in this thread for pointing in this direction!
  
 The U8 & X12 will feature in my setup in one of two ways: RPi -USB-> U8 -I2S-> X12 -XLR-> amp <OR> Windows laptop -USB-> U8 -AES/EBU-> powered studio monitors. I was hoping someone here could help me with a few simple questions on this? I am trying to stay out of the soldering/DIY space as I don’t trust myself with it just yet, so am looking for off-the-shelf solutions if at all possible.
  
 1.    1. *Connections.*
 a.    How to connect the U8 and X12 via I2s? U8 has a female RJ45, X12 a female micro HDMI. Does a HDMI extender -> RJ45 connection deteriorate the signal (unlikely as it is digital, but might be!)? I cannot find a male RJ45 -> male micro HDMI cable online. OR should I resort to USB connection instead? If I2S connection, will the U8 and X12 communicate OK – are the pins aligned and are the normal drivers ok for this?
 b.    I read somewhere that optimal length of AES/EBU cable (i.e. 110 ohm with XLR connectors) is 1.5m, and that it is good practice to use the 110ohm XLR cables even if transmitting non-digital signal (so, in my system, an analog signal from balanced X12 outputs to amp). Is this true, and are Van Damme an ok brand for this?
 c.    Should I use anything other than bog standard UK power cables for all devices, and if so, are they available online in UK?
 2.    *2. **Master clock. *This is probably a stupid question, but if I link up the U8 and X12, which device is providing the master clock signal, and is this the optimal solution? (Very happy if the answer to this is only a link to an article that clearly explains what the master clock does in an signal converter + DAC system J)
 3.    *3. **A cheeky bonus question!* I am contemplating purchasing an Amphion Amp100 power amp to drive the Amphion One18 monitor speakers. The amp is priced at ~€1k which seems rather steep.. I suspect there is an amp made by Gustard or someone else in Asia that will outperform the Amp100 at half the price or less. The specs are here: http://www.amphion.fi/en/create/products/amp100/ (2 x 50W (RMS) @ 4 ohms). This is what it looks like on the inside: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/amphion/27.png with each of the boards looking like this: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/amphion/28.png
  
 MANY MANY thanks to those willing to provide answers. Really loving this stuff and hoping to be better versed in DIY audio imminently.
  
 PS: I am loving the google translate Chinese to English renditions but the ‘Department for Social Development’ logo in the Breeze Audio U8 picture on Taobao is particularly hilarious. Any other gems to share?!


----------



## DACLadder

wynnytsky said:


> it asks for a login and my Chinese sucks hard
> would be nice if you could upload somewhere or email to my username at gmail


 
 Click on the link below and then on the "XMOS USB Audio 2.0..." .gif in a new web browser page that opens.  You should then see a bunch of files but just select "download" on the top left to download all the listed files in one .zip file. 
  
 https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=D0AB7686EA250D95&resid=D0AB7686EA250D95%214056&authkey=AKASKTkcgS8A2xE


----------



## Wynnytsky

dacladder said:


> Click on the link below


 
 TY!  I just realized that was the same baidu driver link found on the X20U's ebay page.  Alas, I get to postpone learning Chinese for another year.
  


nel1s said:


> Windows laptop -USB-> U8 -AES/EBU-> powered studio monitors.


 

 you can't do that -- U8's output is digital and your monitors don't have an integrated DAC (like the Vanatoo)
  


nel1s said:


> X12 a female micro HDMI


 
 the X12's I2S input is standard full-size HDMI.  I can't imagine an HDMI/RJ45 adapter will not function w/o consequence to the signal.  I think you'll be happy using AES.  For me switching from coax to AES eliminated a bass hump that extended into low-mids and masked detail.  A friend is using an AES-to-coax neutrik adapter and he said he's hearing better grip down low -- accentuated muddy bass is not revealing it's structure.  Me to - my solder pen is staying clear of these devices.


----------



## nel1s

wynnytsky said:


> you can't do that -- U8's output is digital and your monitors don't have an integrated DAC (like the Vanatoo)
> 
> 
> the X12's I2S input is standard full-size HDMI.  I can't imagine an HDMI/RJ45 adapter will not function w/o consequence to the signal.  I think you'll be happy using AES.  For me switching from coax to AES eliminated a bass hump that extended into low-mids and masked detail.  A friend is using an AES-to-coax neutrik adapter and he said he's hearing better grip down low -- accentuated muddy bass is not revealing it's structure.  Me to - my solder pen is staying clear of these devices.


 
  
 Thanks buddy, much appreciated! The powered monitors I am looking at are PMC twotwo.6 and Genelec 8351a. Both have on board DACs. I'll stick to AES cables then - nice and clean to have that running between all components.


----------



## h1f1add1cted

dacladder said:


> 2.26.0 is the latest USB driver (that I know of) with the correct credentials that properly loads onto Windows 8.1 and 10.   You can find it below.  If you can't read Chinese then look for the downward arrow in the top row of buttons.  This is the download button and has "1.2M" in the label description as another clue of what to press.  *下载(1.2M)*
> 
> http://pan.baidu.com/s/1ntDUtqp


 

 Thanks but no chance that this page is working for me... I'm in Europe with 100 Mbit internet connection. But this page seems for me a very very bad routing, it loads forever and it never finish loading the page (tried 3 diffferent browsers too), so I can't click anything. Could you please provide this driver on a other one click hoster? Big thanks.


----------



## DACLadder

h1f1add1cted said:


> Thanks but no chance that this page is working for me... I'm in Europe with 100 Mbit internet connection. But this page seems for me a very very bad routing, it loads forever and it never finish loading the page (tried 3 diffferent browsers too), so I can't click anything. Could you please provide this driver on a other one click hoster? Big thanks.


 

 See post #2543 immediately above for alternate link....
http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/2535#post_11936102


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> TY!  I just realized that was the same baidu driver link found on the X20U's ebay page.  Alas, I get to postpone learning Chinese for another year.
> 
> you can't do that -- U8's output is digital and your monitors don't have an integrated DAC (like the Vanatoo)
> 
> the X12's I2S input is standard full-size HDMI.  I can't imagine an HDMI/RJ45 adapter will not function w/o consequence to the signal.  I think you'll be happy using AES.  For me switching from coax to AES eliminated a bass hump that extended into low-mids and masked detail.  A friend is using an AES-to-coax neutrik adapter and he said he's hearing better grip down low -- accentuated muddy bass is not revealing it's structure.  Me to - my solder pen is staying clear of these devices.


Was I that buddy?

I posted back a dozen or so pages how to convert from AES to coax, using the Canare adapter and 20db attenuator. I had good sucess with the Hydra Z.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Was I that buddy?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 How is Hydra-Z performing? Still using it?


----------



## Wynnytsky

rb2013 said:


> Was I that buddy?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 when you said it was safe to make that connection, I relayed that post to a Gustard adopter in NY and that green lighted his PUC2 purchase.
 I thought the purchase [without testing] was a bit of a leap but he's telling me its the shasizzle.  That description of the bass is not unique to the PUC2 because I hear the same difference between the U12's coax and AES outputs.
  
 so hungover -- it's taking me more time to proof read that write.  It's a good thing headfi has that feature where I can edit drunken posts.


----------



## nel1s

nel1s said:


> So far been enthusiastically following this and other head-fi threads on Asian USB converters and DACs! Not sure this is the right thread, but I have some novice questions that I was hoping to get some answers to.
> 
> So with the Yuan being cheap, I took the plunge and ordered a Breeze Audio U8 with Talema transformer (http://world.taobao.com/item/520991006222.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a1z09.2.0.0.NVH1BP&_u=m2f2ti1v689f) and a Gustard DAC X12 (http://world.taobao.com/item/18012850492.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a1z09.2.0.0.NVH1BP&_u=m2f2ti1v7a14). Looks to be good value at a total US$500 + shipping – thanks to all posters in this thread for pointing in this direction!
> 
> ...


 
  
 I know enough about cables now, thanks guys! Breeze apparently has some issues with I2S anyways, so AES will be good.
  
 Still looking for an exaplanation of master clock slaving and the like - any good links? 
  
 And, I have already one alternative for the amp I was eyeing: building my own with the Anaview AMS1000! See http://headphoneaddict.com/anaview-ams1000-diy-tutorial/ for instructions.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> when you said it was safe to make that connection, I relayed that post to a Gustard adopter in NY and that green lighted his PUC2 purchase.
> I thought the purchase [without testing] was a bit of a leap but he's telling me its the shasizzle.  That description of the bass is not unique to the PUC2 because I hear the same difference between the U12's coax and AES outputs.
> 
> so hungover -- it's taking me more time to proof read that write.  It's a good thing headfi has that feature where I can edit drunken posts.


Yes, I think the bass tightened just a tad. Not night and day, but I take 1-2% improvement at this point since they add up. 


Drink water, water, then a steak, then more water! My cure for a hangover


----------



## rb2013

nel1s said:


> I know enough about cables now, thanks guys! Breeze apparently has some issues with I2S anyways, so AES will be good.
> 
> Still looking for an exaplanation of master clock slaving and the like - any good links?
> 
> And, I have already one alternative for the amp I was eyeing: building my own with the Anaview AMS1000! See http://headphoneaddict.com/anaview-ams1000-diy-tutorial/ for instructions.


DAC master, the Breeze DDC reclocks the PC digital signal. The Hydra Z with Crystek clocks has a BNC clock output to master a DAC, if it has BNC clock input.

Hope that helps!


----------



## nel1s

rb2013 said:


> DAC master, the Breeze DDC reclocks the PC digital signal. The Hydra Z with Crystek clocks has a BNC clock output to master a DAC, if it has BNC clock input.
> 
> Hope that helps!


 
  
 Excellent, thank you. One less thing I need to worry about it seems!
  
 Now deciding on whether to build my own Anaview AMS1000 class D amp to power passive speakers or opt for the Breeze U8 --> active monitors channel.


----------



## Wynnytsky

nel1s said:


> Now deciding on whether to build my own Anaview AMS1000 class D amp to power passive speakers or opt for the Breeze U8 --> active monitors channel.


 
 The biggest recent advances in this hobby has been the digital source, so you're already on the right track buying the latest & greatest.  Most people start speakerfi with speakers and work up the chain from there.  The speaker and amp can be crazy vintage and you can still get a timeless stellar sound.  This analog stuff (speakers and amps) haven't evolved as much and the market is flooded with competition, which means you can find some old top tier used equipment at 25% retail price with a finish that's 7/10 or 8/10.  When you consider how much value our currency lost, the savings are even more.  For instance last week a pair of Odyssey Lorelei's sold for $825 in NC (w/ original boxes).  I loose sleep over that one.
  
 You should have a ball with craigslist and audiogon finding the amazing stuff selling within 25mi of your home (usaudiomart and audioasylum also).  Imagine your on a bargain hunt reality show -- I love a procurement road trip.  You may be able to find+afford stuff that you'll need help putting in your car (and would cost a small fortune to ship).  Getting to see+touch+hear the equipment before you pay out is a huge luxury for the buyer, and you escape the inevitable damage of shipping heavy items.
  
 Hindsight has taught many of us that if we shot higher early on, then we would have saved money in the long run.  Spoil yourself on speakers amps and hopefully you won't need to put them in the mail for a very long time.  These items have a signatures that will dictate which wires and tubes (and preamp) you choose that can either mask or accentuate that signature.
  
 Leveraging the used market you can surpass mid-fi for $5k, but I think most people easily spend twice taking losses on the buy/sell hamster wheel.  But if there was no journey then this would hardly be a hobby.


----------



## nel1s

Thanks! I share your love for bargain hunting, hence a willingness to take the plunge and risk faulty shipments from China  Here in the UK the craigslist equivalent is Gumtree, and fleabay is pretty active too.
  
 However I am after something that I can use both for listening and music production. I.e. a flat response down to about 35hz but also 'dynamic' and 'musical'. I have already realised that buying cheap = expensive in the long term so have reserved £3-4k for amp + speakers. On the HiFi side of the border, to my knowledge something like the B&W diamond series would suffice. I've kept an eye out for second hand within my budget but it seems a bit of a stretch. Other option could be the KII Three, but that's too expensive new & you won;t see them second hand as they;re not even released yet.
  
 On the studio monitor side, I have been demo'ing a few models lately and really like the sound of the amphion two15s and genelec 8351A. I'd build my own anaview d class amp if I end up with the former; the latter has everything on board - but I'd need a damn attractive discount on the latter from the retailer to warrant the purchase. I do really like the genelec GLM2.0 room adjustment software.. Room acoustics are definitely under-appreciated in HiFi land but make out at least half the perceived SQ I believe.


----------



## Wynnytsky

nel1s said:


> risk faulty shipments from China


 
 I don't worry about shipping damages with the small items I'm ordering from China.  Another huge plus to sourcing used stuff locally is you'll discover where the closest audiophiles live.  Ideally you'll learn from other people's successes+mistakes and possibly borrow/loan equipment.
  
 It's funny how geography has such a strong influence on our systems.  The only components we'll have in common is our chi-fi.
  
 My friend had the small B&W diamond monitors matched with a small REL stub on McIntosh gear.  So impressive -- it remains the best sound I've ever heard from B&Ws.  The last couple times I heard the 802s I didn't like the treble at all.  Sounded like their front end could have benefited from this thread.  After selling the b&w monitors, he bought+sold Wilson Sofias, then got both martin logan summits and maggie 3.7i's.  I hope retirement goes the same for me!
  
 Room acoustics yes!  Every speaker I've measured in my loft shows the same hump and suck-out, so clearly it's the room.  I'm completely on board with using the Dirac Live software, but to get the most out of it I have to maximize the software gain while constantly monitor the software's clipping indicator.  Better recordings have more headroom that make way for stronger correction in the suckouts.  Makes me feel like a DJ and gives me something to do while listening.
  
 For a backup amp I paid about $250 for a 200wpc AudioSource Amp7, which uses the tripath switching chip.  I was feeling good about it, and then my friend got some Onkyo integrated amp for under $200 that totally out classed the AudioSource.  Both units are about 10yr old.


----------



## rb2013

nel1s said:


> Thanks! I share your love for bargain hunting, hence a willingness to take the plunge and risk faulty shipments from China  Here in the UK the craigslist equivalent is Gumtree, and fleabay is pretty active too.
> 
> However I am after something that I can use both for listening and music production. I.e. a flat response down to about 35hz but also 'dynamic' and 'musical'. I have already realised that buying cheap = expensive in the long term so have reserved £3-4k for amp + speakers. On the HiFi side of the border, to my knowledge something like the B&W diamond series would suffice. I've kept an eye out for second hand within my budget but it seems a bit of a stretch. Other option could be the KII Three, but that's too expensive new & you won;t see them second hand as they;re not even released yet.
> 
> On the studio monitor side, I have been demo'ing a few models lately and really like the sound of the amphion two15s and genelec 8351A. I'd build my own anaview d class amp if I end up with the former; the latter has everything on board - but I'd need a damn attractive discount on the latter from the retailer to warrant the purchase. I do really like the genelec GLM2.0 room adjustment software.. Room acoustics are definitely under-appreciated in HiFi land but make out at least half the perceived SQ I believe.


Check out KEF and NAIM. Class D :rolleyes:


----------



## nel1s

I've looked at KEF and NAIM but there's nothing obvious I'd like to source second hand by these brands. Haven't researched that much though.
  
 My Gustard X12 order didn't get through for some reason so I've now decided to cancel that purchase altogether. Any recommendations for a DAC that I could get instead and combines well with the Breeze U8? Maybe something based on the AK4490 chip? Aiming to be cost efficient, of course...


----------



## Wynnytsky

nel1s said:


> My Gustard X12 order didn't get through for some reason so I've now decided to cancel that purchase altogether. Any recommendations for a DAC that I could get instead and combines well with the Breeze U8? Maybe something based on the AK4490 chip? Aiming to be cost efficient, of course...


 
 If the $1250 Schiit Gungir 2 Multibit had an AES or I2S input then I'd probably roll the dice on that.  It's unfortunate because I wanted Schiit to be my first r2r dac.
  
 I pre-ordered my X20U on 8-25 and it was put in the pail on 9-17.  Today my DHL tracking number still doesn't work.  When my seller (forexman) asked DHL for an ETA they said the 30th.  5 weeks is crazy long but I'm happy that my seller is forthcoming and responsive.
  
 Perhaps a bigger issue is going on, like the fires out west or the hidden war with China.  I can see my country deliberately causing the delay to slow the exodus of our currency.  The ebay business model certainly doesn't employ as many Americans as the dept store model.


----------



## prot

wynnytsky said:


> If the $1250 Schiit Gungir 2 Multibit had an AES or I2S input then I'd probably roll the dice on that.  It's unfortunate because I wanted Schiit to be my first r2r dac.




That schiit doesnt even have AES input ?!?! 
 I find that particularly lame for a $1250 DAC. And I'm guessing the USB input isnt exactly tip-top either. Thats a lot of dough for such a limited box whos best strenghts seem to be a buzzword (r2r) and a few slogans (usa made, lalala).


----------



## Wynnytsky

prot said:


> Thats a lot of dough for such a limited box whos best strenghts seem to be a buzzword (r2r) and a few slogans (usa made, lalala).


 
 I think schiit established themselves selling affordable models like the bifrost and gungir 1.  When they introduced multibit I think they made a business decision to price their product based on the competition that they are matching or exceeding, which makes sense -- works for real estate.  But doing so w/o adding those inputs seems a little premature or greedy.  And "made in the usa" sadly means "overpaid in the usa".  Your money will always go further when buying from true capitalist countries.


----------



## vincponc2610

Any idea about the second stage regulator in the Breeze U8 ?


----------



## Wynnytsky

rb2013 said:


> The Hydra Z with Crystek clocks has a BNC clock output to master a DAC, if it has BNC clock input.
> 
> Hope that helps!


 
  
 I found a dealer selling new Hydra-Zs at a great price.  There is a 3 week wait though.  Hopefully by the end of the month I'll be posting my personal account about how it bests the PUC2.
  
 BTW
 Last week I was experimenting with nuetrix XLR<=>coax adapters.  Using the same coax cable we ranked the quality between a U12 to X12 from best to worst:
 1. AES => AES (2 adapters)
 2. coax => AES
 3. AES => coax
 4. coax => coax (no adapters)
  
 What was surprising to us was that the perceived appeal/impact was greater with AES on the receiving end of the signal.
 So the difference between #1 and #2 was small, but the difference between #2 and #3 was large


----------



## Core32

That could also point to the coax connector/interface on the receiving end of    xx => coax  not being up to the AES quality.
 Or maybe I read the test method wrong.


----------



## GenpattonJames

Hello guys, I have been following this forum for a while now with great interest. Amazing what some of you are doing in taking something that has been engineered, studying it and then tweaking it to sound much better. I don't have those skills but love to read about your results! I have a question and I am hoping that someone has tried this out or at least might know the answer.
I'm going to be purchasing either the Gustard U12 or the Melodious MX-U8.
I can get the Gustard for $194.71 Canadian and the Melodious for $256.19 
Here is what I know, the Gustard needs a 5 volt input fed from USB. The Melodious does not.
Here is what I want to do: I would like to connect an iPad to one of these using the camera connection kit that sends digital out. From the camera kit (USB) it will be converted to spdif then into my Havana balanced DAC. The melodious description seems to suggest this would work. I have sent enquires to both sellers on eBay but have yet to hear back and I am not sure I trust their response. 
Anyone have one of these that have tried it?
Any guesses, suggestions would be most welcome with thanks!


----------



## GenpattonJames

BTW the reason I am mentioning the Gustard needing the five volts is I believe that the apple camera connector kit will not supply this. I will also be using whatever I choose with my audio server, but it would be real nice to plug in my iPad once in a while as well. I know the max it can output is 24 bit 48khz and all my songs are alac so lossless compression. Again any input from you gents is much appreciated!


----------



## genclaymore

Couldn't you use some kind of usb hub with it's own power supply to use the U12 on your ipad? Unless it doesn't work thru a powered usb hub.


----------



## Wynnytsky

core32 said:


> That could also point to the coax connector/interface on the receiving end of    xx => coax  not being up to the AES quality.
> Or maybe I read the test method wrong.


 
 for the record I would never condone using a coax cable with an AES adapter on both ends.  That being said, an Acoustic Zen coax cable with 2 adapters had better synergy that day between the U12&X12 than the pure AES cables we had on hand (bluejean and something else).  Perhaps it helped that the speaker connects were Acoustic Zen Z2.  Tonight we got to try a 0.5m Gotham AES between U12 and X12 and that worked well.  But when we replaced the U12 with a PUC2 a Wireworld Gold Starlight 5 made for the best AES.
  
 Of course these results will only apply to the stereo we had it plugged into.  Any changes made elsewhere in the system would likely produce different favorites for AES.  One thing for sure is that AES is consistently sounding more natural than IIS.


----------



## ginetto61

> Originally Posted by *Wynnytsky* /img/forum/go_quote.gif   ...
> BTW
> Last week I was experimenting with *nuetrix XLR<=>coax adapters.  *
> Using the same coax cable we ranked the quality between a U12 to X12 from best to worst:
> ...


 
  
 Hi and sorry but i do not understand.
 Do you mean that you have two units with digital coax IN and OUT and you have used adapters and balanced cable to connect them ?
 Which specific model of adapters have you used ?
_*The rating surprises me a lot indeed.   Which coax cable are you using ?*_
 However this tells me in general that AES cables can provide a better digital signals transfer than coaxial cables ... is it confirmed ?
 This would be extremely important for me as i am in the process of changing the dac.
 Thanks a lot indeed for the interesting info.
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> I found a dealer selling new Hydra-Zs at a great price.  There is a 3 week wait though.  Hopefully by the end of the month I'll be posting my personal account about how it bests the PUC2.
> 
> BTW
> Last week I was experimenting with nuetrix XLR<=>coax adapters.  Using the same coax cable we ranked the quality between a U12 to X12 from best to worst:
> ...


That is interesting. I found a small improvement going from the AES>coax from the Hydra to my DAC's. Versus coax to coax. I used the 20db attenuator. You should be careful going AES>coax without attenuation, the much higher signal could damage the coax input reciever. My dacs don't have AES input so I could not try that way. 

I have not tried it on the Breeze yet. To busy at work.

Also a small improvement using the iFi iPurifier on the Hydra USB input.

I'll be interested to hear your comparison of the Hydra Z and the PUC. But get at least the small TeraDak linear PS. It makes a substantial improvement over the wall wart or USB PC power feed. The Li Ion battery is pretty good, although I prefer the TeraDak. I need to rewire the r-core big TeraDak to the 2.3mm dc connection to give it a try.


----------



## rb2013

nel1s said:


> I've looked at KEF and NAIM but there's nothing obvious I'd like to source second hand by these brands. Haven't researched that much though.
> 
> My Gustard X12 order didn't get through for some reason so I've now decided to cancel that purchase altogether. Any recommendations for a DAC that I could get instead and combines well with the Breeze U8? Maybe something based on the AK4490 chip? Aiming to be cost efficient, of course...


Well I a big R2R dac fan (a do have a Delta-Sigma to, a $6K APL). I'd recommend the Lite DAC83. R2R PCM1704 -(4 total), seperate ps. Also the Audio-gd Ref 7.1 (8 - PCM1704!).

I'm a big tube DAC fan as well. I love the natural rich harmonic tone. So for my office system I heavily modded a Lite DAC60, see my mod thread. But it is very good stock with upgraded tubes. Killer good for $600.

Many choices. I have much respect for the Engineers at Schiit, I have one of their headamps. Funny they see no value in putting AES or I2S as an input, even on their totl DAC.


----------



## rb2013

genpattonjames said:


> Hello guys, I have been following this forum for a while now with great interest. Amazing what some of you are doing in taking something that has been engineered, studying it and then tweaking it to sound much better. I don't have those skills but love to read about your results! I have a question and I am hoping that someone has tried this out or at least might know the answer.
> I'm going to be purchasing either the Gustard U12 or the Melodious MX-U8.
> I can get the Gustard for $194.71 Canadian and the Melodious for $256.19
> Here is what I know, the Gustard needs a 5 volt input fed from USB. The Melodious does not.
> ...


One simple statement. Get a Breeze U8.

Kills both the Gustard and Melodious sound wise and is cheaper then both. Order with the Talema upgraded transformer.

One the best audio values I have ever seen. I plan on getting another one with the upgraded Crystek clocks to compare to the Hydra Z. I have two already. I have a brand new Gustard U12 that'll be selling soon (my third) with upgraded Nichicon HW caps.


----------



## rb2013

genpattonjames said:


> BTW the reason I am mentioning the Gustard needing the five volts is I believe that the apple camera connector kit will not supply this. I will also be using whatever I choose with my audio server, but it would be real nice to plug in my iPad once in a while as well. I know the max it can output is 24 bit 48khz and all my songs are alac so lossless compression. Again any input from you gents is much appreciated!


If you get a Gustard buy a$20 16,000ma Li Ion battery and split USB cable. That signal switch is powered, but not connected to any dirty power.


----------



## Wynnytsky

ginetto61 said:


> Do you mean that you have two units with digital coax IN and OUT and you have used adapters and balanced cable to connect them ?
> Which specific model of adapters have you used ?
> _*The rating surprises me a lot indeed.   Which coax cable are you using ?*_
> However this tells me in general that AES cables can provide a better digital signals transfer than coaxial cables ... is it confirmed ?
> ...


 
 Gustard U12 as AES and coax outputs, and Gustard X## has AES and coax inputs.  I wanted a controlled test where the cable was identical and I'd just be hearing the difference in ports (by adding/removing AES adapters that were either Nuetrik or Canare).  The spdif cable was Acoustic Zen.  If you're changing DACs you'll see a huge selection to pick from -- ignoring DACs that omit AES will give you an easier menu to choose from.  If you really curious to experiment with inputs you can ignore DACs that omit IIS, which is what I did.  I won't be able to make a fair assessment of IIS until I get that Hydra-X and break it in, but early results are indicating that AES is king.
  


rb2013 said:


> Also a small improvement using the iFi iPurifier on the Hydra USB input.
> 
> I'll be interested to hear your comparison of the Hydra Z and the PUC. But get at least the small TeraDak linear PS. It makes a substantial improvement over the wall wart or USB PC power feed. The Li Ion battery is pretty good, although I prefer the TeraDak. I need to rewire the r-core big TeraDak to the 2.3mm dc connection to give it a try.


 
 I'll be all over this recommendations this time next month!  I've already got the iPurifier jacked into the DDC input.
 The PUC2 has no AC/DC inputs, and I wonder if that design was made possible by only having to drive a single AES output?  The Hydra will be powering a bunch of outputs which I suppose will detract from dynamics when used on USB power like the PUC2 lite.
  



rb2013 said:


> Many choices. I have much respect for the Engineers at Schiit, I have one of their headamps. Funny they see no value in putting AES or I2S as an input, even on their totl DAC.


 
 I wish I had a friend with a multibit Schiit DAC to listen to.  Just found out a friend has a Chord Hugo so I hope to hear that [this year].  The only Schiit with AES is the $2300 Yggy.  Total DACs have AES.
  


rb2013 said:


> I have not tried it on the Breeze yet. To busy at work.


 
 More than once I thought to myself I want the kind of "work" that affords RB the time to post hundreds of pages on headfi!  Now I must run into the shower, get dressed, and dry off by running to the trolley, whilst RB puts on a headset and strolls into his home office like a boss.


----------



## ginetto61

wynnytsky said:


> Gustard U12 as AES and coax outputs, and Gustard X## has AES and coax inputs.  I wanted a controlled test where the cable was identical and I'd just be hearing the difference in ports (by adding/removing AES adapters that were either Nuetrik or Canare).  The spdif cable was Acoustic Zen.
> If you're changing DACs you'll see a huge selection to pick from -- ignoring DACs that omit AES will give you an easier menu to choose from.
> If you really curious to experiment with inputs you can ignore DACs that omit IIS, which is what I did.
> I won't be able to make a fair assessment of IIS until I get that Hydra-X and break it in, but *early results are indicating that AES is king.*


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot indeed again for the very valuable advice.
 As an aside *i have noticed that AES link is much more popular in pro equipment than in so called "audiophile" ones.  *
*I do not understand way honestly.*
 However i will look at dac with AES input then.
 I have both U10 and U12 that provide AES out.
 but i would like to experiment also with the Breeze unit (nice and compact) if it is a real step-up.
 I think i will buy one soon.
 Thanks again.
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## GenpattonJames

genclaymore said:


> Couldn't you use some kind of usb hub with it's own power supply to use the U12 on your ipad? Unless it doesn't work thru a powered usb hub.




Thanks for the suggestion, i thought about it but I am worried the hub would leave the U12 always powered on an also introduce additional noise. I would rather use th melodious if it works. Thanks for the suggestion though.


----------



## GenpattonJames

rb2013 said:


> One simple statement. Get a Breeze U8.
> 
> Kills both the Gustard and Melodious sound wise and is cheaper then both. Order with the Talema upgraded transformer.
> 
> One the best audio values I have ever seen. I plan on getting another one with the upgraded Crystek clocks to compare to the Hydra Z. I have two already. I have a brand new Gustard U12 that'll be selling soon (my third) with upgraded Nichicon HW caps.






I assume you mean the breeze audio xmos u8? If so the the only place I can find it is a Chinese website, Tobaigo and I'm not even sure if it's 110 volt. It's not on eBay yet. Any suggestions?


----------



## m0reilly

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-XMOS-U8-USB-Digital-Interface-DSD-PCM-I2S-AES-EBU-Coaxial-Optical-converter-/141026791919?hash=item20d5da11ef
 i think this is the item, as the one i have seen linked to was from this seller. there are others w/o the on board psu for less...


----------



## GenpattonJames

Thanks so much, I will look it up on my eBay app!


----------



## Maxx134

rb2013 said:


> Many choices. I have much respect for the Engineers at Schiit, I have one of their headamps. Funny they see no value in putting AES or I2S as an input, even on their totl DAC.



I see AES on the yggdrasil:

But I dont know if any other inputs are I2S.
Are all AES same pin layout?


----------



## m0reilly

one would assume.
 i2s is a very intimate connection. some dacs use the interface devices clock, some do not. generally i would prefer i2s input in a dac, and hope that it would use the interface bridge clock. would be nice.


----------



## Wynnytsky

m0reilly said:


> i would prefer i2s input in a dac, and hope that it would use the interface bridge clock


 
 Time for me to learn about clocking.  Get ready for some badly formed questions...
  
 Are DDCs always the master?  The X20U dac claims to have "master clock technology".  Is that suggesting that this DAC could "master" the DDC?
  
 The Hydra-X has a BNC output that can be used as a wordclock or masterclock generator.  I'm guessing wordclock means operating the DDC as slave and the other is master?  But if wordclock means to follow an external clock, then that means the Hydra's BNC port would have to also operate as an input, right?
  
 Is the BNC clock port even relevant to IIS?  Wiki tells me that i2s always has a bit clock line and word clock line, and optionally it may have master clock.  Given that IIS has so many pins to work with, seems silly to omit the master clock
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%C2%B2S
  
 I'm asking these questions because I wonder if what I liked most about the IIS' sound was that it was mastering a DAC, and perhaps that same degree of intimacy is achievable over AES if I used in concert with that BNC port.  Unfortunately it's not something I could validate because my DACs don't have that BNC clock port.


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> I see AES on the yggdrasil:
> 
> But I dont know if any other inputs are I2S.
> Are all AES same pin layout?


I stand corrected. Yes all AES and BNC have the same pin outs. One benefit of the SPDIF standard.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> Time for me to learn about clocking.  Get ready for some badly formed questions...
> 
> Are DDCs always the master?  The X20U dac claims to have "master clock technology".  Is that suggesting that this DAC could "master" the DDC?
> 
> ...


The clocks in the DDCs reclock the digital stream received from the PC, so the PC digital stream is reclocked and sent to the DAC. The DAC has a different roll, of course, to convert the recieved digital stream into an analog signal. The DAC cloks work with, and are master, DAC chip to create the analog output.

Some DACs, the Antelopes and Esoterics, can slave or accept the clock signal from an external clock (like the expensive atomic external clocks). They need special clock inputs, usually bnc connnections. I believe the std is 50 and 100ohms. The Hydra Z and the Tanly with the upgrade can use their superior Crystek clocks to mastef the DAC'S.

The Hydra and Tanly have two bnc outputs. Completely different in use, one is a spdif coax output (with possibly better impedence characteristics), the other a clock output.

Hope that helps.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> The clocks in the DDCs reclock the digital stream received from the PC, so the PC digital stream is reclocked and sent to the DAC. The DAC has a different roll, of course, to convert the recieved digital stream into an analog signal. The DAC cloks work with, and are master, DAC chip to create the analog output.
> 
> Some DACs, the Antelopes and Esoterics, can slave or accept the clock signal from an external clock (like the expensive atomic external clocks). They need special clock inputs, usually bnc connnections. I believe the std is 50 and 100ohms. The Hydra Z and the Tanly with the upgrade can use their superior Crystek clocks to mastef the DAC'S.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Bob,
  
 This is not the complete truth, there are lots of dacs which derive the clocksignal from an spdif signal, like my previous, cheap chinese diy dac.
 I2S always has a clock signal on board. My AK4495SEQ dac doesn't have a clock on board either, so it MUST be slave, just like my previous dac.
  
 I suppose the wordclock on dacs (without I2S connection?????) is to use the external clock INSTEAD of the clocksignal within spdif signal.
 Maybe there are dacs available which have an I2S connection AND a wordclock input, but I am not sure about that.
  
  
 Am i right or am I missing something?
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> This is not the complete truth, there are lots of dacs which derive the clocksignal from an spdif signal, like my previous, cheap chinese diy dac.
> I2S always has a clock signal on board. My AK4495SEQ dac doesn't have a clock on board either, so it MUST be slave, just like my previous dac.
> ...


Hi Alex,

You may be correct. Cheaper dacs can slave to the clock on the spdif signal, but even inexpensive dacs today will have an on board clock. There is tremendous jitter on the spdif clock signal. Spdif for dacs was originally developed as a digital connection between a cd transport and a dac, way, way before USB or computer audio. I have a $150 Musiland that has a very small clock. With i2s that allows reclocking, but I'm not very familar with all the various nuances of i2s implementations.


Here is a good link


http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diginterf2_e.html


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Hi Alex,
> 
> You may be correct. Cheaper dacs can slave to the clock on the spdif signal, but even inexpensive dacs today will have an on board clock. There is tremendous jitter on the spdif clock signal. Spdif for dacs was originally developed as a digital connection between a cd transport and a dac, way, way before USB or comouter audio. I have a $150 Musiland that has a very small clock. With i2s that allows reclocking, but I'm not very familar with all the various nuances of i2s implementations.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Bob,
  
 Yes, I suppose you are right on the spdif (Sony Philips Digital Interface) signal, lot's of jitter, and designed for connection between transport and dac,
 It's a pitty they never used I2S from the beginning since I2S always was (and is) the standard connection between dac-chip and receiver chip (like CS8416 or DIR9001).
  
 But, (I'm not sure of this, will examine this further - tomorrow if I got time to do so,,,), it looks like if a DAC receives it's digital signal from I2S or internal USB interface, it acts
 like a slave (otherwise synchronous or asynchronous usb interfaces would be useless). But like I said, I'm not 100% sure.
  
 Seems very expensive dac's can override override I2S clock and act as master when providing with wordclock.
  
  
 To be continued,,,,,,,
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex
  
 EDIT: Thanks for the link!! Will read it tomorrow, have to prepare for some nightrest now,,,,,


----------



## m0reilly

i've heard the wyred 4 sound dac 2 use its own clock w/i2s in from a bridge...


----------



## b0bb

I2S is an internal protocol to connect various chips on the same board, it is unfortunate it was roped in to connect 2 separate boxes such as as the transport and DAC.
  
 I2S carries a mixture of highspeed (bitclock, data and optionally the master clock) and low speed signals (Frame or Word Clock).
  
 The high speed signals need careful termination on both ends otherwise it can bounce  back and forth between the two ends worsening the jitter.
 The high frequency signals can also bleedthru to the low frequency side leading to noise on the word clock line.
  
 USB is a much nicer protocol as it was designed to go more than a few inches and is robust with error detection and re-transmission.
 I2S is one way only and does not detect errors.
  
 In some engineering shops, I2S is sometimes referred to as a "bit banging" interface, zilch error correction.
  
 The availability of  high-quality USB to I2S cards like the Amanero and DIYINHK Xmos means there is no real need to use I2S  as an external interconnect.
  
 In the case of the Amanero, it is now available with the very low jitter Crystek clocks which means the converted I2S output is almost jitter free and can be connected very close to the DAC input.
  
 USB requires the use of memory buffers to reconstruct the data frames, the serial input bitstream has to be stored in a memory buffer to form the complete USB data frame, so we get reclocking for *free*.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 These taken together, that means the master clock from the transport is not needed as we are reclocking using a precision XO (NDK or Crystek)
  
 The second best thing is to use the USB DDC to reconstruct and reclock the SPDIF stream, when used with low jitter XOs, the jitter problem of the days past is no longer an issue.
  
 I am getting truly excellent results with my Breeze USB DDC modified with the Crystek XOs outputting SPDIF to my small collection vintage DACs like the Teac Esoteric D-500 (Dual TDA1541 R2R) <-- This means I do not have to pull out the ancient Yamaha SPDIF receiver for something more modern.
  
 There are quite a few excellent USB DDCs to choose from such as as the Breeze, Melodious and Tanly.
  
 The majority of transports today are PCs or small embedded devices like the RaspberryPI or devices from Sonore, Linn and Meridian to name a few, all of which understand USB.
  
 In this context, I2S as an external interconnect is more trouble than it is worth.


----------



## prot

b0bb
Fully agree with your conclusion, Usb should be a much better interconnect than I2S .. at least in theory. 
One observation though: UsbAudio has neither error-correction nor re-transmission.


----------



## abartels

b0bb said:


> I2S is an internal protocol to connect various chips on the same board, it is unfortunate it was roped in to connect 2 separate boxes such as as the transport and DAC.
> 
> I2S carries a mixture of highspeed (bitclock, data and optionally the master clock) and low speed signals (Frame or Word Clock).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi b0bb,
  
 Thanks for explaining to us!
  
 I2S was designed for internal usage only, shortest possible signal way needed. Therefore no error correction needed (does one want error correction??, maybe something to think about,,,)
 I definitely prefer I2S directly from DDC to DAC, which means no SPDIF transceiver and SPDIF receiver needed (2 times conversion overruled).
 Yes, you are right about I2S external connection, it can degrade sq because of cablelenght problems / interference /EMI / RFI, but, if using the shortest possible lenght,
 with hq shielded cables, it performs outstanding. RJ45 can be very good, but really short (and hq) cable needed. HDMI is the better option because of LVDS, but, I never could compare
 RJ45 to HDMI with LVDS, but I will in the near future!! Could be very possible that RJ45 CAN sound better than HDMI LVDS because of 2x conversion for HDMI.
  
 Yes, I agree that the best possible option is to have USB interface (galvanic isolated with best possible clocks) buit-in in DAC, so shortest possible cablelength to connect to DAC,
 and only USB connection to DAC. That's why I want to build my dac this way, no external DDC but built-in in DAC.
  
 For now I am VERY happy with modded MX-U8 > 10cm heavily shielded I2S > AK4495SEQ
  
 It's a shame there aren't any DAC's available in lower price range ($1000) which have an outstanding built-in USB interface (which means: seperate psu rails and transformer,
 galvanic isolation of clocks etc.)  We are forced to use external DDC to gain best SQ, and that's a shame.
  
 Best regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## b0bb

I would recommend to avoid using SPDIF unless there is no choice, in my case it is the only option on vintage equipment.
  
 There are quite a few options to build in the DDC into the DAC.
  
 Have you tried DIYINHK's isolated XMOS USB I2S card on your AK4495 ? The clocks are isolated from the USB interface.
 I have this card which I used on my Soekris R2R, the Soekris is slaved to the XMOS acting as the master clock, this was one way to get around the RPi internal I2S 192k sampling rate limitation 
  
 JL Sounds also make an isolated unit, it uses the NDKs, Crysteks can be added as an option
 http://jlsounds.com/i2soverusb.html
  
 There is the one from Volent/LKS, that I am using, the supply to the clocks are separate from the rest of the board, all you need add is the 2 external LT3042 supplies that DIYINHK sells and you pretty much have the MX-U8 in much smaller form factor for about the same cost.
  
 ACKO sells galvanic isolator boards made specifically for the Amanero (*AKL-S03   Digital Isolator & Re-clocker)*
 https://sites.google.com/site/ackodac/home.
  
 DIYINHK gives out Amanero galvanic isolator boards for *free*





if you are up to soldering in the parts.
  
 If cost is no object, check out the Sonore one, costs more than the MX-U8, it is a cutdown Audiobyte interface.
 http://www.rendu.sonore.us/USB.html


----------



## b0bb

prot said:


> @b0bb
> Fully agree with your conclusion, Usb should be a much better interconnect than I2S .. at least in theory.
> One observation though: UsbAudio has neither error-correction nor re-transmission.


 

 There are less things to go wrong with USB, but it really boils down to specific implementation.
 There is a least a pre-established framework to set the standards.
  
 You are correct in that the bulk audio data is transmitted without error-correction in isochronous mode 
  
 The USB audio spec makes use of all 3 modes, interrupt mode for clock information and control transfers volume etc.
 The former is the most critical
 http://www.edn.com/design/consumer/4376143/Fundamentals-of-USB-Audio


----------



## abartels

b0bb said:


> I would recommend to avoid using SPDIF unless there is no choice, in my case it is the only option on vintage equipment.
> 
> There are quite a few options to build in the DDC into the DAC.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi b0bb,
  
 Thank you for the valuable links! Yes, I was planning to use the isolated diyinhk I2S board, together with their AK4495SEQ dac,
 planned to build 2x mono, but I will wait untill AK4497SEQ will be on the market, samples available from December 2015, diyinhk surely will offer a kit next year 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 And, XMOS is also coming with a new version, maybe it will support also 768kHz like AK4490/95/97, so I will wait and built my dac then.
  
 The JLSounds board looks also very promising! As an extra it has also SPDIF output, could be handy for compatibility / usage with other dacs.
  
 For AK dac's I prefer the diyinhk versions of isolated I2S because their firmware is adjusted specifically for the AK boards.
  
 The Sonore looks very good also!!!
  
 Btw, don't think you saw my modded MX-U8, which I compared to Hydra-Z, see post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/767935/melodious-mx-u8-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/90#post_11740342
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi Bob,
> 
> Yes, I suppose you are right on the spdif (Sony Philips Digital Interface) signal, lot's of jitter, and designed for connection between transport and dac,
> It's a pitty they never used I2S from the beginning since I2S always was (and is) the standard connection between dac-chip and receiver chip (like CS8416 or DIR9001).
> ...


Well even the $600 R2R Lite DAC60 uses an on board XO clock. Which I upgraded to a dropin replacement Vanguard TXCO. This design is several yrs old. The link explains the evolution of transport/dac clock schemes. As the article explains the major disadvantages of the dac using the spdif transport clock feed.

You should read it - it'll clarify much of the confusion on the clock issue. My understanding on i2s is, it was designed as an internal link. So intended for very short cable lengths ( inches). Not for meter long runs. The designers I spoke with still feel the clocks should be as close to the dac chips as possible. So again, the last solution outlined in the article, of a clock on board the dac, using only the data feed of spdif, and a pll feedback to the transport seems to cure many original issues (and why spdif aquired a bad reputation) with spdif linked cd spinners and dacs. 

Of course all this has advanced with asy 2.0 USB computer audio. One of the big negatives of cd spinners, especially one box players, was the large im induced destortions from the laser dc servo control mechanisms. Nasty stuff. Not an issue with computer audio, but other issues were introduced, like pc switching ps noise.

So in the early days combining a spdif ink between the cd transport ( and it's attendent dc servo motor tracking laser) feeding a dirty clock to the dac section, to outcome was quite poor. One solution was moving to a seperate box transport and dac, another i2s as an internal link.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> I2S is an internal protocol to connect various chips on the same board, it is unfortunate it was roped in to connect 2 separate boxes such as as the transport and DAC.
> 
> I2S carries a mixture of highspeed (bitclock, data and optionally the master clock) and low speed signals (Frame or Word Clock).
> 
> ...


What he said!  Great info


----------



## Wynnytsky

Well external USB interfaces will remain attractive to me because I don't intend on replacing my entire DAC every year.  We're winding back the clock to NOS R2R chips and we're on the bleeding edge with XMOS and Amanero.  We already have usb daughter boards in our DACs but I don't see any 3rd party market selling these internal USB interfaces, nor should they before a standard is made (PCIx, M.2, DDR, etc).  No soldering please.
  
 If you can afford the best then don't stop with integrating USB.  Integrate the pre, then amp, and throw the whole thing inside the back of your speaker.  Rinse, and repeat every 6mo.
  
 Q: I see the word "transport" being thrown around.  What qualifies as the transport in digital playback?  Is it the computer pushing the music or is it whatever device that is feeding the DAC (sync or async).  I assume it's not the DAC.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> Well external USB interfaces will remain attractive to me because I don't intend on replacing my entire DAC every year.  We're winding back the clock to NOS R2R chips and we're on the bleeding edge with XMOS and Amanero.  We already have usb daughter boards in our DACs but I don't see any 3rd party market selling these internal USB interfaces, nor should they before a standard is made (PCIx, M.2, DDR, etc).  No soldering please.
> 
> If you can afford the best then don't stop with integrating USB.  Integrate the pre, then amp, and throw the whole thing inside the back of your speaker.  Rinse, and repeat every 6mo.
> 
> Q: I see the word "transport" being thrown around.  What qualifies as the transport in digital playback?  Is it the computer pushing the music or is it whatever device that is feeding the DAC (sync or async).  I assume it's not the DAC.


A transport is any device that retrieves the stored digital music bits and sends them to the DAC. Today music streaming, NAS, SSD/PC, HD/PC, and of course the good old cd disc spinners. Tomorrow who knows?

Funny many of the new dac reviews I read, and really totl stuff, with their own built in USB boards seem to perform better with an external totl device. Many times fed with a spdif connection. See my current dream DAC the Aqua HiFi La Scalla2 6moons review.

Merdian has followed your very logic.

For me the ability to have tubes in chain adds an important sq element. The nature rich tonality that it seems, for me at least, tubes do best.

One note on cable lengths. Where as i2s should be as short as possible, and no more then 10-12 inches, the optimal length to minimize signal back reflections in a spdif coax cable should 1.5 meters. See Audio Sensibilities technical discussion on this.


----------



## Wynnytsky

rb2013 said:


> A transport is any device that retrieves the stored digital music bits and sends them to the DAC. Today music streaming, NAS, SSD/PC, HD/PC, and of course the good old cd disc spinners. Tomorrow who knows?
> 
> Funny many of the new dac reviews I read, and really totl stuff, with their own built in USB boards seem to perform better with an external totl device. Many times fed with a spdif connection. See my current dream DAC the Aqua HiFi La Scalla2 6moons review.
> 
> ...


 
  
 k so a USB interface can never be the transport.
  
 One day I'll have to try tubes in the DAC section.  I have tubes downstream.  Flat treble is more important to me than bass so I'm digging cryo'd 12au7 RCA clear tops ATM.
  
 The Hydra is 3 weeks away (and I'll be closing on my current home in 15min - got to go!) so my system will be silent for a few weeks while I worry about floors and a mini split installation.  Somewhere I read that a guy had a dedicated ground for is audio.  When my electrician shows up should I ask for that?  I think it's nothing but an 8ft copper rod into the ground.
  
 But when I do plug in it will be with a 12" Wireworld silver starlight 5.1 IIS cable and a 16" (edit: 18") Kimber Orchid AES.  Can't wait.
 My X20U supposedly has an "auto" mode on the remote that bypasses the sabre's 100mhz crystal TXCO reclocker so that the only clock in the mix is the one from the USB interface (I hope I got that riht).  The U12 (via 4m bluejean AES) is already clearly better in this mode so I'm eager to try IIS+Hydra.  Eager isn't the word -- twitching like a tourettes patient


----------



## mz2014

Hi
 Does anyone know what is the current consumption of the DIYINHK XMOS.
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/58-xmos-dsd-dxd-384khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2s-pcb.html


----------



## m0reilly

i preferred the i2s results (hdmi) over any other when i had a dac with i2s in. psaudio recommended a t least a meter length cable (hdmi) to prevent 'reflection', and even sell a fancy silver cable for this purpose, and then you have pink fauns pci-e>i2s>dac. never tried the over rj type...


----------



## Wynnytsky

m0reilly said:


> psaudio recommended a t least a meter length cable (hdmi) to prevent 'reflection'


 
 A number of people posted that IIS wants a super short signal path but my friend got this cable (only comes in 2m)...
 http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Mapleshade-Vivilink-2-HDMI-Cable-with-PLUS-Upgrade-2m-only/productinfo/VIVILINK2-PL/
 ...even though nowhere does it say IIS or I2S.  Yet it's claims ...


> • Decreases brightness and grain in high frequencies, reducing edginess in the upper treble without sacrificing detail. The breathiness of singers and flutes, the metallic ring of cymbals is better articulated and less abrasive. _Plus_ significantly reducing listening fatigue listening to music coming from a digital sourceous (i.e. Blu-Ray players, computers, and gaming consoles).
> 
> • _Plus_ lowers the soundstage noise floor, resulting in a quieter, blacker background. This makes the most difference in dynamic passages, as a scene transitions from silent suspense to thunderous drama. For music -- held guitar or piano chords sustain longer and resonate more clearly as they fade into silence. Newly discovered details and nuances emerge from the negative space of the music on good recordings. 
 ... all came true.  Basically it was more organic and pleasing than any other HDMI cable on hand.  That was between the U12 and X12.  But now the PUC2 is calling the shots in his system so I may have to make him an offer on that cable.
  
 It seems all walks of digital cable must conform to their impedance spec or risk reflections.  What is the impedance of IIS/HDMI anyway?  I presume they have to be the same.


----------



## stuartmc

I chose a 1m analysis plus hdmi over all others I had....some were super short. Go figure. I did a lengthy A/B session last night between AES and I2S on the X20. I love the simplicity of switching between the two with the remote. I had an excellent silver AES cable in the loop and I have to say the differences were Very subtle. In my rig, I2S seemed to have slightly higher resolution and shimmering highs while the AES sounded more organic with slightly deeper bass. Depending on the music, I could go for either one.


----------



## genclaymore

I know with the Gustard X12 I preferred to use the I2S over the AES. AES just didn't sound right to me after using I2S for a long while like it was missing something, but I didn't know what it was.  But those AES cables came in handy at-least when i needed to plug my JBL 305s up into my X12 as I had XLR cables that wasn't long enough. But i had a pair of aes cables i mistakenly bought. Good thing I did. I found I didn't like the usb from the X12 it self either as it sound exactly the same as optical to me with the way it messed up the bass. I noticed it more so with the LSR 305 then I did with my hE-500's but i still noticed it on the headphones, it was just quicker to notice with the studio monitors.


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> k so a USB interface can never be the transport.
> 
> One day I'll have to try tubes in the DAC section.  I have tubes downstream.  Flat treble is more important to me than bass so I'm digging cryo'd 12au7 RCA clear tops ATM.
> 
> ...


Yes, just like the cd transport output electonics is not considered the 'transport'. Only the combined disc laser reader and electronics. So the USB DDC alone wouldn't provide any music. It part of the USB/PC 'transport' system. My old RME FireFace 800, which was my previous intefeace, prior to USB Asyn 2.0's development, used the 1394b protocol.

Yes dedicated line, with independent ground (copper rod). Will isolate the ps from other household devices.

Good luck on the new casa!


----------



## rb2013

wynnytsky said:


> A number of people posted that IIS wants a super short signal path but my friend got this cable (only comes in 2m)...
> http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Mapleshade-Vivilink-2-HDMI-Cable-with-PLUS-Upgrade-2m-only/productinfo/VIVILINK2-PL/
> ...even though nowhere does it say IIS or I2S.  Yet it's claims ...
> ... all came true.  Basically it was more organic and pleasing than any other HDMI cable on hand.  That was between the U12 and X12.  But now the PUC2 is calling the shots in his system so I may have to make him an offer on that cable.
> ...


Well maybe like the evolution of spdif technology, I guess i2s has evolved as well. Better recievers and transmitters? Does i2s over hdmi use transformers? I believe so.




stuartmc said:


> I chose a 1m analysis plus hdmi over all others I had....some were super short. Go figure. I did a lengthy A/B session last night between AES and I2S on the X20. I love the simplicity of switching between the two with the remote. I had an excellent silver AES cable in the loop and I have to say the differences were Very subtle. In my rig, I2S seemed to have slightly higher resolution and shimmering highs while the AES sounded more organic with slightly deeper bass. Depending on the music, I could go for either one.


Good info, my DAC's are only spdif optical and coax.


----------



## PWGuy

I'm trying to buy the XMOS U8 (Breeze Audio?) using Chrome to translate the chinese page - the price is considerably less with the Talema transformer.  Has anyone on the thread actually had any luck doing this and from which seller?  U.S. Ship to address..


----------



## PWGuy

rb2013 said:


> One simple statement. Get a Breeze U8.
> 
> Kills both the Gustard and Melodious sound wise and is cheaper then both. Order with the Talema upgraded transformer.
> 
> One the best audio values I have ever seen. I plan on getting another one with the upgraded Crystek clocks to compare to the Hydra Z. I have two already. I have a brand new Gustard U12 that'll be selling soon (my third) with upgraded Nichicon HW caps.


 

 Where exactly can the Breeze U8 with Telama be purchased?


----------



## DACLadder

m0reilly said:


> i preferred the i2s results (hdmi) over any other when i had a dac with i2s in. psaudio recommended a t least a meter length cable (hdmi) to prevent 'reflection', and even sell a fancy silver cable for this purpose, and then you have pink fauns pci-e>i2s>dac. never tried the over rj type...


 

 If the HDMI interface (source, cable, receiver) are well designed then there should be no/little reflection with any length of cable.  With longer cables you do get attenuation and high frequency roll compared to shorter ones.  This increases risetime of the HDMI signals and introduces jitter.   HDMI cable test reports confirm lower jitter with shorter cables.  You don't necessarily need fancy HDMI cables but you do need one that is well designed.  One of my favorite HDMI cable is the 1 ft. Wireworld Starlight 5.2 I paid $35 for a few years ago.  I also have a Wireworld Silver Starlight 6 but sound identical to the Startlight 5.2.  But in general the longer the cables the better quality they need to be.
  
 The same with coax S/PDIF.   A properly designed system should have best performance with short cables.  This tuning of the interface with longer cables than necessary is compensating for a bad design somewhere.


----------



## Wynnytsky

dacladder said:


> One of my favorite HDMI cable is the 1 ft. Wireworld Starlight 5.2 I paid $35 for a few years ago.  I also have a Wireworld Silver Starlight 6 but sound identical to the Startlight 5.2.  But in general the longer the cables the better quality they need to be.
> 
> The same with coax S/PDIF.   A properly designed system should have best performance with short cables.  This tuning of the interface with longer cables than necessary is compensating for a bad design somewhere.


 
  
 That's the message I like waking up to!
 Was getting nervous that my $50 purchase of a 12" Wireworld Silver Starlight 5-2 would be a dissappointment.
  
  


rb2013 said:


> Yes dedicated line, with independent ground (copper rod). Will isolate the ps from other household devices.
> 
> Good luck on the new casa!


 
 an electrician friend was telling me it's not the ground that matters for audio (one of my amps only has the two pin power plug).  He said I should inquire on getting a floating neutral on the dedicated line?
  
 I'll have new keys in 2 hours.


----------



## m0reilly

a bit of wiki 'lvds (hdmi) vs rj45' i2s:


> LVDS is a differential signaling system, meaning that it transmits information as the difference between the voltages on a pair of wires; the two wire voltages are compared at the receiver. In a typical implementation, the transmitter injects a constant current of 3.5 mA into the wires, with the direction of current determining the digital logic level. The current passes through a termination resistor of about 100 to 120 ohms (matched to the cable's characteristic impedance to reduce reflections) at the receiving end, and then returns in the opposite direction via the other wire. From Ohm's law, the voltage difference across the resistor is therefore about 350 mV. The receiver senses the polarity of this voltage to determine the logic level.
> As long as there is tight electric- and magnetic-field coupling between the two wires, LVDS reduces the generation of electromagnetic noise. This noise reduction is due to the equal and opposite current flow in the two wires creating equal and opposite electromagnetic fields that tend to cancel each other. In addition, the tightly coupled transmission wires will reduce susceptibility to electromagnetic noise interference because the noise will equally affect each wire and appear as a common-mode noise. The LVDS receiver is unaffected by common mode noise because it senses the differential voltage, which is not affected by common mode voltage changes.
> The fact that the LVDS transmitter consumes a constant current also places much less demand on the power supply decoupling and thus produces less interference in the power and ground lines of the transmitting circuit. This reduces or eliminates phenomena such as ground bounce which are typically seen in terminated single-ended transmission lines where high and low logic levels consume different currents, or in non-terminated transmission lines where a current appears abruptly during switching.
> The low common-mode voltage (the average of the voltages on the two wires) of about 1.2 V allows using LVDS with a wide range of integrated circuits with power supply voltages down to 2.5 V or lower. In addition, there are variations of LVDS that use a lower common mode voltage. One example is sub-LVDS (introduced by Nokia in 2004) that uses 0.9 V typical common mode voltage. Another is Scalable Low Voltage Signaling for 400 mV (SLVS-400) specified in JEDEC JESD8-13 October 2001 where the power supply can be as low as 800 mV and common mode voltage is about 400 mV.
> The low differential voltage, about 350 mV, causes LVDS to consume very little power compared to other signaling technologies. At 2.5 V supply voltage the power to drive 3.5 mA becomes 8.75 mW, compared to the 90 mW dissipated by the load resistor for an RS-422 signal.


 
  
 i defeated the ground on my integrated amp, as it picked up a hum from the subwoofer power amp plugged into the same dedicated circuit duplex outlet.


----------



## rb2013

pwguy said:


> I'm trying to buy the XMOS U8 (Breeze Audio?) using Chrome to translate the chinese page - the price is considerably less with the Talema transformer.  Has anyone on the thread actually had any luck doing this and from which seller?  U.S. Ship to address..


 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/271948361421?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  


pwguy said:


> Where exactly can the Breeze U8 with Telama be purchased?


 
 Just send doukmall a PM on Ebay for the price of the Talema upgrade.


----------



## hgpsemaj

For DIY enthusiastic informations:
  
 Breeze Audio are willing to offer their XMOS/USB interface DU-U8 without transformer, enclosure and RCA Plugs for RMB348.00 (i.e. Excluding postage.).
  
  
  
  
伍汝新:伟坚(2015-10-13 20:43:38):

不要箱不要牛，不要同轴接口
rcheung0727(2015-10-13 20:44:27):

對, 請報價,
伍汝新:伟坚(2015-10-13 20:44:45):

减100一台
rcheung0727(2015-10-13 20:45:26):

RMB348? 是嗎?
伍汝新:伟坚(2015-10-13 20:48:34):

是的


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> For DIY enthusiastic informations:
> 
> Breeze Audio are willing to offer their XMOS/USB interface DU-U8 without transformer, enclosure and RCA Plugs for RMB348.00 (i.e. Excluding postage.).
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks!
  
 Now I know it's called a DU-U8.
  
 Does Shenzen plan on offering these?


----------



## PWGuy

hgpsemaj said:


> For DIY enthusiastic informations:
> 
> Breeze Audio are willing to offer their XMOS/USB interface DU-U8 without transformer, enclosure and RCA Plugs for RMB348.00 (i.e. Excluding postage.).
> 
> ...


 

 What enclosure would you use then?


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Now I know it's called a DU-U8.
> 
> Does Shenzen plan on offering these?


 
  
 I wouldn't have a clue, because I've never contacted with Shenzhen Audio in respect of DU-U8.
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## hgpsemaj

pwguy said:


> What enclosure would you use then?


 
  
  
 There are certain enthusiasts consider it would enhance the performance, if the transformer is separated from the PCB board. 
 The following enclosures which are also manufactured by 'Breeze Audio' may be big enough to hold both PCB board and transformer separately:  
  
  http://world.taobao.com/item/35495470339.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.H0cTBX#detail
  
 http://world.taobao.com/item/39968000532.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.2015080705.16.aD3Hv8&id=39968000532&scm=1007.12006.7587.i35495470339&pvid=ddee4188-943a-40c4-b573-df49f21ca2bb
  
 For the transformer, there is many alternatives you may opt for, e.g.R-Core, Talema and Noratel.
  
 'Breeze Audio' have an official website in TaoBao, and offer their XMOS/USB interface of MU-U8 in many price levels. They also emphasis that buying HiFi products is not just look at the price, and they claim that their MU-U8 equip with SITIME/USA oscillator and local made transformer is better than TCXO model, and their link:
  
  http://world.taobao.com/item/520991006222.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.rMYdHl#detail


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/271948361421?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> Just send doukmall a PM on Ebay for the price of the Talema upgrade.


 
 It's here - http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/272014777816?


----------



## conquerator2

hgpsemaj said:


> There are certain enthusiasts consider it would enhance the performance, if the transformer is separated from the PCB board.
> The following enclosures which are also manufactured by 'Breeze Audio' may be big enough to hold both PCB board and transformer separately:
> 
> http://world.taobao.com/item/35495470339.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.H0cTBX#detail
> ...


 
 Thanks! That's almost half of the price of their Ebay offering 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 202$ with Talema on Ebay vs 118$ shipped on Taobao!


----------



## PWGuy

conquerator2 said:


> Thanks! That's almost half of the price of their Ebay offering
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yes I noticed the same.  Not sure how much true SQ improvement there will be by separating the transformer, etc vs. simply buying this stand-alone for $118 shipped to U.S.


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> There are certain enthusiasts consider it would enhance the performance, if the transformer is separated from the PCB board.
> The following enclosures which are also manufactured by 'Breeze Audio' may be big enough to hold both PCB board and transformer separately:
> 
> http://world.taobao.com/item/35495470339.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.H0cTBX#detail
> ...


 

 The SITIME clocks are not as good as the TXCO's higher phase noise.  They price with the SITIME and BingZi transformer is the cheapest on TaoBao at 448 yuan, with the upgraded TXCO clocks and BingZi transformer 528 yuan , and the the TXCO with the Talema 628 yuan.
  
 Google Chrome tranlation from the TaoBao website:


> *Scenario 1* : The *United States no drift SITIME ultra-low jitter and low phase noise oscillator Beijing green cube transformer, price 448 yuan (strongly recommended reform program, the sense of hearing is better than 2 yellow金晶振program play can not just look at price HIFI )*
> 
> *Scenario 2* : The *ultra-precision 0.1PPM gilded gilt low phase noise oscillator Beijing green cube transformer, price 528 yuan*
> 
> *Scenario 3* : Using *ultra-precise 0.1PPM gilded gilt low phase noise oscillator import **TAEMA**transformer, price 628 yuan*


 
 http://world.taobao.com/item/520991006222.htm?spm=a312a.7728556.1414651174895.5.l9FoDJ&scm=1007.10146.6070.0&id=520991006222&pvid=0a563792-baf2-4d9c-a6a6-c0d30c560f8d


----------



## PWGuy

So can the Crystek Clock osccilators be swapped out if I've got some electronics/soldering experience?  I assume so - has anyone done this?  I don't even know what a "Crystek Clock" is or benefits vs. Weilang's (sp?) best offering of TXCO.  Maybe someone can enlighten me on the Crystek benefits..


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Thanks! That's almost half of the price of their Ebay offering
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I paid $152 plus $19 shipping to the US.  Arrived in less then a week - DHL Air.  This was with the upgraded Talema.
  
 With Ebay - money back 'Buyer Guarantee' on TaoBao only 7 day return.
  
 I will go through TaoBao when I purchase the third one - sending them a couple of Crystek Clocks for installation (still wondering if the SMD mounting vs DIP through the hole will be an issue).
  
 Worth a go.


----------



## rb2013

pwguy said:


> So can the Crystek Clock osccilators be swapped out if I've got some electronics/soldering experience?  I assume so - has anyone done this?  I don't even know what a "Crystek Clock" is or benefits vs. Weilang's (sp?) best offering of TXCO.  Maybe someone can enlighten me on the Crystek benefits..


 

 A few experts here have done it.  It is not easy - not for beginners.  Requires a DIP mount and special low temp solder and soldering blower.


----------



## PWGuy

Ok nevermind .  Is it worth having these shipped to Weilang to perform?  Seems like a hassle, so curious as to the sonic benefits.


----------



## ginetto61

hgpsemaj said:


> There are certain enthusiasts consider it would enhance the performance, if the *transformer is separated from the PCB board.  *


 
 for sure .... just think of the vibrations ... and EMI  


> For the transformer, there is many alternatives you may opt for, e.g.*R-Core*


 
 R-Core is quite the best for digital 
 But i like also these types used in the best dac from Schiit Audio ... (i do not know why they are soldered on the same pcb of circuits by the way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )


----------



## rb2013

pwguy said:


> Ok nevermind .  Is it worth having these shipped to Weilang to perform?  Seems like a hassle, so curious as to the sonic benefits.


 

 The Crystek CCHD-957's are available from Digikey for $26.65 each.
  
 http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?pv139=643&pv139=69&k=cchd957&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
  
 The Breeze takes one 24.560Mhz and one 22.5792Mhz clock.
  
 It should make for a nice incremental improvement.
  
 One question I have is - do you need to send just the clocks or a DIP adapter too?


----------



## rb2013

Great article on the Uptone Regen and Audio Quest Jitterbug in the latest issue of Stereophile magazine.
  
 I like the iFi Purifier with the Hydra Z.
  
 Will have to get these other guys to experiment.


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> One question I have is - do you need to send just the clocks or a DIP adapter too?


 
 The trace footprint on the PCB is small for the Crystek, suggest checking with the supplier or Manufacturer.
  
 Check the temperature dependence characteristics of the XO, the CCHD957 comes in 20,25 and 50ppm variants.
 The one you listed on Digikey is 25ppm, the 50ppm is also quite common, the lower the ppm value, the less warm time up hassles.


----------



## b0bb

pwguy said:


> ...so curious as to the sonic benefits.


 
 The main sonic benefit is an improvement in the soundstage breadth and width.
  
 Detail retrieval is also much better, greatly reduced time smearing of transients such as the clash of cymbals, most obvious with DACs with jitter sensitive SPDIF receivers and in particular I saw a marked improvement on older and Vintage DACs.
  
 I have the older XMOS  Breeze, one generation behind the current one under discussion.


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> The trace footprint on the PCB is small for the Crystek, suggest checking with the supplier or Manufacturer.
> 
> Check the temperature dependence characteristics of the XO, the CCHD957 comes in 20,25 and 50ppm variants.
> The one you listed on Digikey is 25ppm, the 50ppm is also quite common, the lower the ppm value, the less warm time up hassles.


 

 Good info I have a bunch of these DIP adapters some for the .01uf bypass resistors, some without.
  
 What do you think of using the bypass resistors on the 957's like NDK recommends on the SD's.


----------



## rb2013

Ok Regen ordered (one month wait list), Audioquest Jitterbug as well.  Will be interesting on these DDC's as they'll only be acting on the data line from the PC (well on the Gustard there is that switching thing).
  
 So it will be interesting to see if there is any sonic improvement.  So far the iFi iPurifier has had a small improvement on the Hydra Z and Breeze.


----------



## b0bb

rb2013 said:


> Good info I have a bunch of these DIP adapters some for the .01uf bypass resistors, some without.
> 
> What do you think of using the bypass resistors on the 957's like NDK recommends on the SD's.


 

 Use the adapters with the bypass caps if it fits, the XOs are close together, space is tight.
 Not sure about the bypass resistor, can you post a link to the info?


----------



## rb2013

b0bb said:


> Use the adapters with the bypass caps if it fits, the XOs are close together, space is tight.
> Not sure about the bypass resistor, can you post a link to the info?


 

 Sorry yes I meant cap of course .01uf value I believe


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> Ok Regen ordered (one month wait list), Audioquest Jitterbug as well.  Will be interesting on these DDC's as they'll only be acting on the data line from the PC (well on the Gustard there is that switching thing).
> 
> So it will be interesting to see if there is any sonic improvement.  So far the iFi iPurifier has had a small improvement on the Hydra Z and Breeze.


 
 Can you add Wyrd to complete the trifecta as well please?


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Can you add Wyrd to complete the trifecta as well please?


 

 From what I have read - the latest a shootout in the lastest issue of Stereophile magazine.  The Wyrd is not even close to the Regen.  The nice thing on the Jitterbug - it can improve the performance of the Regen.  So the Wyrd for the money it costs is out.
  
 BTW new sellers on Ebay for the Breeze DU-U8:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/141026791919?dest=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2F141026791919
  
 Lower price by this seller!  Can you believe $123.90 plus $20 shipping.  Man is this a audio bargain
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Top-Asynchronous-XMOS-U8-I2S-audio-usb-device-support-DSD-Digital-audio-system/262010528369?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3D5de958ba2ea34d98b8dadb9f8bfbd207%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D25%26sd%3D141026791919


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> From what I have read - the latest a shootout in the lastest issue of Stereophile magazine.  The Wyrd is not even close to the Regen.  The nice thing on the Jitterbug - it can improve the performance of the Regen.  So the Wyrd for the money it costs is out.
> 
> BTW new sellers on Ebay for the Breeze DU-U8:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/141026791919?dest=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2F141026791919
> ...




I would not be so dismissive on the Wyrd. Thats the one Schiit I really like, but sure...
Good catch on the Ebay 
Shame there is no Talema option there :/
There is if you contact him, actually!


----------



## headphones1999

guys thinking of getting the U12 for my V800 dac...
 is this the best option for the price?


----------



## rb2013

headphones1999 said:


> guys thinking of getting the U12 for my V800 dac...
> is this the best option for the price?


 

 I have one I can sell you - brand new.  I'll even include the totl Nichicon HW caps installed.  PM me.  I do like the Breeze better with spdif.  If you're looking for i2s on HDMI the U12 may be the better way to go.  I hear some folks have issues with the Breeze and i2s (can't get a wiring diagram) and it's RJ45.


----------



## PWGuy

rb2013 said:


> I have one I can sell you - brand new.  I'll even include the totl Nichicon HW caps installed.  PM me.  I do like the Breeze better with spdif.  If you're looking for i2s on HDMI the U12 may be the better way to go.  I hear some folks have issues with the Breeze and i2s (can't get a wiring diagram) and it's RJ45.


 

 Which is better for AES?  I'm considering Breeze with Talema


----------



## rb2013

pwguy said:


> Which is better for AES?  I'm considering Breeze with Talema


 

 The Breeze for sure


----------



## crazychile

rb2013 said:


> Ok Regen ordered (one month wait list), Audioquest Jitterbug as well.  Will be interesting on these DDC's as they'll only be acting on the data line from the PC (well on the Gustard there is that switching thing).
> 
> So it will be interesting to see if there is any sonic improvement.  So far the iFi iPurifier has had a small improvement on the Hydra Z and Breeze.




I'm curious about this as well. I just found this thread and scanned over it. I have a Regen and my Schiit Bifrost is on it'ts was back from getting the multibit upgrade. I've been thinking about converting usb (with Regen) to coax if there is any sonic benefit to that, and also so I would have AES/EBU to use if I upgrade later to the Yggdrasil DAC. Plus I could use it as a hub to run different digital outputs simultaneously. So far, what I have read seems like people are using the Gustard to get the benefits similar to the Regen, more than an an upgrade to coax or AES/EBU. But I could be wrong. Is my logic sound to make this addition to my system, or is it a side step where all i gain is another box on the rack?


----------



## rb2013

crazychile said:


> I'm curious about this as well. I just found this thread and scanned over it. I have a Regen and my Schiit Bifrost is on it'ts was back from getting the multibit upgrade. I've been thinking about converting usb (with Regen) to coax if there is any sonic benefit to that, and also so I would have AES/EBU to use if I upgrade later to the Yggdrasil DAC. Plus I could use it as a hub to run different digital outputs simultaneously. So far, what I have read seems like people are using the Gustard to get the benefits similar to the Regen, more than an an upgrade to coax or AES/EBU. But I could be wrong. Is my logic sound to make this addition to my system, or is it a side step where all i gain is another box on the rack?


 

 How do you like the Regen with the Bifrost?  I'm reading so many great reviews about it.
  
 Well to your question - going to an outside USB converter (coupled with or without the Regen) and using the SPDIF coax or AES seems to be a step in the wrong direction vs using the Schiit on board Gen2 USB card.  At least theoretically.
  
 But theory doesn't not always pan out in the real world.  The advantages of one of these USB interfaces (like better power supply filtering, separate operation form the DAC's power system, better clocks, etc.) seems for many to override the slight regression by going to an external coax connection.  So the net improvement is quite positive.  But I will add I know of one person with the Schiit Bifrost Gen2 internal USB that did not hear an improvement.  So it may depend on the quality or resolving power of the rest of your chain. 
  
 I don't have a Bifrost or Gungnir so I can't compare.  I am very impressed with this new multi-bit technology they have developed.  I've posted many times on the downsides of Sigma-Delta (or Delta-Sigma) converters.  I chose a true R2R multibit DAC for my DAC60 mod project. 
  


> *But it’s only 21 bits! I can’t get over that!*
> We can’t get over the fact that delta-sigma DACs throw away all the original samples. Different strokes for different folks.


 
  The Gungir Multi-bit and especially the Ygg don't have i2s or do DSD - that's amazing in today's market place.  With all the hype around these buzz words.  A new design $2,300 DAC with neither!  These guys have cahoonas.
  
 Quote:


> *But what if I want DSD?*
> If DSD becomes a significant part of the market, where “significant” is defined as “more than 1% of total sales,” then we will support it via a separate dedicated DSD decoding box. Today, when it is less than 0.01% of recorded music, well, hey, we're not so interested.
> 
> *What? But I hear DSD is the future!*
> ...


 
 The second stage of the Ygg is equally impressive - using the advanced AD5791BRUZ in a new unique way. 
  
 Now if they would only come out with a tubed Ygg or Gumby - I'd give it some serious consideration.
  
 Anyway to your original question - I guess the only way to find out is to give one of these a try.
  
 Here is a photo of the Gen2 USB board:


 Nothing special from what I can tell - C-Media CM6631A receiver - std VCXO clocks.
  
 Now I hear there is a Gen3 available for the Ygg - XMOS based??  Advanced clocking?


----------



## crazychile

rb2013 said:


> crazychile said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious about this as well. I just found this thread and scanned over it. I have a Regen and my Schiit Bifrost is on it'ts was back from getting the multibit upgrade. I've been thinking about converting usb (with Regen) to coax if there is any sonic benefit to that, and also so I would have AES/EBU to use if I upgrade later to the Yggdrasil DAC. Plus I could use it as a hub to run different digital outputs simultaneously. So far, what I have read seems like people are using the Gustard to get the benefits similar to the Regen, more than an an upgrade to coax or AES/EBU. But I could be wrong. Is my logic sound to make this addition to my system, or is it a side step where all i gain is another box on the rack?
> ...




Thanks for the response. I may try the Gustard if for no other reason than to be able to use more than one dac in the system without having to switch around cables or reselect outputs on my Mac Mini. I like the improvement the Regen made to my Bifrost with USB and the upgraded analog section. Of course some of that is being replaced with the multibit upgrade. I've been following the Regen threads here and on CA for the last few months and it sounds like there are very few dacs that the Regen doesn't improve. Other Bifrost owners have mentioned improvements also, but I'm sure you can always find a case or two where someone doen't like it, even if they may be in the minority.

Because I also have an electrostatic amp with balanced inputs, I'll upgrade to a Gungnir MB or Yggdrasil within the next year or so. I know you were responding to other posters in part of your response, but I have to say this about the Yggdrasil...I only do redbook material. I've owned an SACD player in the past but DSD is a niche format that not everyone cares about. If it came down to spending $2300 on a dac that only did redbook but did it at the level of much higher priced dacs, or a dac at the same price that did all formats pretty well, i'd take the former.


----------



## rb2013

crazychile said:


> Thanks for the response. I may try the Gustard if for no other reason than to be able to use more than one dac in the system without having to switch around cables or reselect outputs on my Mac Mini. I like the improvement the Regen made to my Bifrost with USB and the upgraded analog section. Of course some of that is being replaced with the multibit upgrade. I've been following the Regen threads here and on CA for the last few months and it sounds like there are very few dacs that the Regen doesn't improve. Other Bifrost owners have mentioned improvements also, but I'm sure you can always find a case or two where someone doen't like it, even if they may be in the minority.
> 
> Because I also have an electrostatic amp with balanced inputs, I'll upgrade to a Gungnir MB or Yggdrasil within the next year or so. I know you were responding to other posters in part of your response, but I have to say this about the Yggdrasil...I only do redbook material. I've owned an SACD player in the past but DSD is a niche format that not everyone cares about. If it came down to spending $2300 on a dac that only did redbook but did it at the level of much higher priced dacs, or a dac at the same price that did all formats pretty well, i'd take the former.




I'm with your there on the DSD thing. My totl $6k APL DAC is actually a modded Denon 3910. So in addition to being an awesome DAC, it can spin SACD, DVD-A, and CD's. Early on I bought every SACD Sony put out. Most did sound better then the CD version, even though they were just conversions. But some were very nice. Same for Warner and othes issuing 24/96 DVD-A. But after a decade refining my music severs, and digital chain, the SQ of redbook EAC burnt files exceeds the CD spun. Foobar witb SoX upsample to 192k on the APL and 96k for the heavily modded DAC60. I can do on the fly direct comparisons, going back and forth, by remote.

I'm all server now and with the extrodinary Hydra Z (AES with Canare AES to bnc, 20db atten, bnc to rca). The SQ has hit a new all time best. I eventually digitalized the SACD's andDVD-A's (and my LP's) at ultra high resolution (32 bit, 176k sampling) using a proaudio ADC. All on HD's now, including a large LP collection.

I hoping the Regen and Jitterbug together can eek out another few percent performance. They're cheap enough.

Good luck, post your results.

I have a slightly modded U12 (upgraded Nichicon HW PS caps), that's like new available. Only used for a shootout I've been working on. PM me if interested.


----------



## crazychile

Thanks for the offer, but if I buy the Gustard, I'll probably use Amazon in case it sounds like @ss and I need to return it.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Hey where did you buy your Canare AES to BNC? I may try one of those if I buy the Gustard and end up with a Gungnir MB. Thanks.


----------



## rb2013

crazychile said:


> Thanks for the offer, but if I buy the Gustard, I'll probably use Amazon in case it sounds like @ss and I need to return it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I forgot where - but BHP Photo has them
  
 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/406162-REG/Canare_BCJ_XJ_TRB_BCJ_XJ_TRB_110_Ohm_to.html


----------



## rb2013

Jitterbug (that name gets me) arrived today. Useing with the Hydra Z first. Nice. A bit more liquidity to the sound. And it was quite liquid before. No downside so far. Bit more focus the the vocals, a bit more depth and size to the image. I'll be getting another for my other system.

Based on this experiment, I'm super excited about the Regen. I'll try and use the second LPS TeraDak on it. Reading the CA thread on the Regen, it seems to benefit from a better power supply. They were soldout on the 500 unit October run, so I've pre-ordered for the Nov run. So it'll be awhile.


----------



## rb2013

Tried the Jitterbug this morning on my office system with the Breeze - an even bigger change.  Very nice.  Will be getting another.  Regen you're even better.
  
 Highly recommend this little $49 unit.  So it works even on a data only line (the power to the Breeze is 100% AC).


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> Tried the Jitterbug this morning on my office system with the Breeze - an even bigger change.  Very nice.  Will be getting another.  Regen you're even better.
> 
> Highly recommend this little $49 unit.  So it works even on a data only line (the power to the Breeze is 100% AC).


 
 I'm running the Jitterbug with a Regen into my Tanly DDC.  The combination now sounds great to me. I say "now" because initially, I had some major problems with the Jitterbug. In my system, it was very finicky about the usb cable I used.  With the Audience AU24 cable, there were very odd things going on with Tidal and especially with Jriver MC20.  Most of the time it wouldn't play at all.  I changed to a Forza FAW Copper Series Twin and the goofiness, for the most part, went away.  This is very odd to me because these two cables are very similar in construction.
  
 Now that things have settled down and I have some extended time listening with the Jitterbug in and out of the system, I am definitely going to keep it.  A little wider and more delineated soundstage with a quieter (more black) backdrop.  I also detect a little more depth and fullness to the bass and lower midrange.  Good stuff!


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> I'm running the Jitterbug with a Regen into my Tanly DDC.  The combination now sounds great to me. I say "now" because initially, I had some major problems with the Jitterbug. In my system, it was very finicky about the usb cable I used.  With the Audience AU24 cable, there were very odd things going on with Tidal and especially with Jriver MC20.  Most of the time it wouldn't play at all.  I changed to a Forza FAW Copper Series Twin and the goofiness, for the most part, went away.  This is very odd to me because these two cables are very similar in construction.
> 
> Now that things have settled down and I have some extended time listening with the Jitterbug in and out of the system, I am definitely going to keep it.  A little wider and more delineated soundstage with a quieter (more black) backdrop.  I also detect a little more depth and fullness to the bass and lower midrange.  Good stuff!


 

 Nice to hear you have the same positive results.
  
 No problem with either the Forza FAW Copper Twin or the Silnote Poseiden USB.  Since moving away from the Melodious's no issues, no crashes, no unlocks, no ticking, no clicking/crackling.  My computer systems are a real pleasure now.
  
 Did you have any issues with the Regen?  What are you using to power it?  A Uptone JS-2?


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> Nice to hear you have the same positive results.
> 
> No problem with either the Forza FAW Copper Twin or the Silnote Poseiden USB.  Since moving away from the Melodious's no issues, no crashes, no unlocks, no ticking, no clicking/crackling.  My computer systems are a real pleasure now.
> 
> Did you have any issues with the Regen?  What are you using to power it?  A Uptone JS-2?


 
 The Regen was simple plug and play with no issues whatsoever.  I am using the standard Regen walwart at the moment. I decided to wait for their upcoming power supply upgrade.  My power is highly filtered as is, so I will be quite interested to see if their improved power supply actually makes an audible difference.


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> The Regen was simple plug and play with no issues whatsoever.  I am using the standard Regen walwart at the moment. I decided to wait for their upcoming power supply upgrade.  My power is highly filtered as is, so I will be quite interested to see if their improved power supply actually makes an audible difference.


 

 I'm reading through the original thread on CA and it looks like, if the power supply lines are not being used, then the Regen can use a very wide range of voltages.
  
 So the really nice LPS TeraDak 30W I bought for the Hydra (using the smaller X1 to very good effect) with the R-core would work very nicely.  It can be switched between 7.5V(perfect for the Regen) and 5V. Not to expensive - and very well made.  I believe it was mentioned quite favorably by the Uptone folks as a lower cost alternative.
  
 From what I have read the upgrade in PS really makes a difference.  And it look like they decided to use a SMPS - which of course feeds all kinds of noise back into the AC lines (as they freely admit).  They mention that quite a bit - they tried but could not find a linear - regulated PS that would fit in a small USPS box for shipping.  That seems to have been a major issue - the cost to ship, especially overseas was very reasonable with small package USPS priority mail and had tracking.
  
 Now I just need to find a 2.5mm female to 2.1mm male adapter or cable.  Trip to Fryes tomorrow.

 That thread on CA is really full of very useful information - like the 'packet noise' at 8.5Khz that is epidemic on the USB data lines - and that appears to cross the isolation transformers with ease.  John Swenson the designer targeted that as a main objective - and the exact impedance matching of the entire 4layer board and components (the reason for the recommended direct connection to the back of the DDC or DAC - with  no cable between.).  Really an amazing design and  little unit.  They are selling them like no tomorrow - 500 units a month with a wait list.
  
 Here is a link to the thread for those curious.
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/uptone-audio-regen-22803/index10.html#post411826
  
 How long before the Chinese reverse engineer this and include it in the next generation of DDCs?  I imagine about 50 Chinese designers at work as we speak.


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> Jitterbug (that name gets me) arrived today. Useing with the Hydra Z first. Nice. A bit more liquidity to the sound. And it was quite liquid before. No downside so far. Bit more focus the the vocals, a bit more depth and size to the image. I'll be getting another for my other system.
> 
> Based on this experiment, I'm super excited about the Regen. I'll try and use the second LPS TeraDak on it. Reading the CA thread on the Regen, it seems to benefit from a better power supply. They were soldout on the 500 unit October run, so I've pre-ordered for the Nov run. So it'll be awhile.



OTOH, http://www.head-fi.org/t/613387/msb-analog-dac-review-p3/250_50#post_12011526


----------



## rb2013

So reading the Uptone Regen original thread - I see why an external USB bridge can sound superior to a DAC's built in one.
  
 John Swenson the genius Engineer behind the Regen explains on the thread:
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/uptone-audio-regen-22803/index10.html
  
 John explains 'Packet Noise'


> This is a term I coined to refer to the power and ground noise a receiver generates when reading a packet of data. For example in​USB(and Ethernet) data comes in packets with a fair amount of space between packets. The receiver chip doesn't do much of anything in-between packets, this doesn't generate much noise on supply planes. But when a packet comes in the receiver goes into high gear processing the data that just came in, this processing generates a lot of highly variable current draw from the board which generates a fair amount of noise on the supply planes.​​ ​ This noise comes in bursts, which is the packet frequency. For example​USBhigh speed has packets at 8KHz, which is in the human hearing range. This noise can modulate processes in the​DAC(such as the main clock oscillator and the​DACconversion to analog) producing subtle distortions which are in the audio range.​​ ​ John S.​


 
 Alex (SuperDad) from Uptone explains:


> I am sure John will chime in with a proper technical explanation, but allow me to point out a few things--​​ a) The purpose of the REGEN is create a​USBsignal with better signal integrity and impedance than what is at the end of your​USBcable from your computer or streamer;​​ b) Galvanic isolator chips (some of which are much better than others--all of which generate their own​jitterand should be reclocked afterwards), as used on many​USB>I2S boards and in the last couple of years in decent DACs, all come AFTER both the​USBPHY and the​USBprocessor;​​ c) The "packet noise", "logic induced modulation", whatever you want to call it--is still happening on the​USBinput board, and despite the presence of isolator chips, the extra voltage spikes, activity, and noise generated will still have an effect on the sound. That's because those galvanic isolators are good at galvanic isolation, but the signal itself gets embedded with tiny stuff (John will have to expound and correct here). Also, I seem to recall that the isolators are good at some frequencies and not others.​​ ​ In addition, to use the JLSounds board as an example (I have one myself, uninstalled as of yet), they have the audio clocks on the board, and as you say, some sharing of PS planes may occur. (And if one does the better thing and feeds a better​DACmaster clock back into the board, it appears that he ran out of isolator channels and the clock would not go through the isolators. He also chose to use the RF transmitter/receiver type of isolator. Not only do those Silicon Labs isolators have about 3.5 times the​jitterof the ones John likes, but there may be some RFI emitted.)​​ ​ As a separate example, John when to great lengths in the design of the​USBinput of the recently releases BottleHead​DACto insure isolation, immunity, etc. He used all the right tricks with regards to PHY, processor, multiple isolated regulators, clocking, and the best galvanic isolators and reclock flops--all placed and ordered for optimal results.​​ And guess what?​USBcables, computer stuff, and the REGEN all still make a difference!​​ ​ So sorry, when Chord just announced that its newest two DACs--the about-to-ship 2Qute and Hugo TT--have galvanic isolators in their​USBinput path that make choice of​USBcables and power supplies irrelevant, forgive me if I don't act surprised if users discover otherwise.​


 
 John goes into greater detail:


> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 So to summarize the USB receiver chip and processor have periodic high level bursts of activity (when the data packets arrive) that create high frequency noise - that noise bleeds through the isolators in several ways - one way is through the system's PS (like those DC servo laser controllers on CD players) that then modulates with the USB reclocking and even the DAC's clocks (if the USB board shares a PS inside the DAC) and other components (like the isolators thresholds).  The second problem is noise riding on the data packet itself generated by the PC's processor and USB MB USB controller (this is why you should have as few other USB devices connected to your Music Server, ie, external speakers, phone chargers, ext HDs, etc..).  The more the USB controller has to handle with these devices the more noise that is generated.
  
 Then there is the issue of impedance matching of the USB data output and inputs.  Most USB input receivers do not have exact impedance's - so the signal on the cable will create back reflected waves.  These modulate with the incoming USB data stream and create issues for the USB bridge or DAC's on board USB receiver and processor - creating jitter.   So this may explain why some USB cables sound better then others in your system - they have slight impedance variations that with trail and error you may find one that more closely aligns with your devices USB input receiver.  The Regen is made to exact impedance specifications and attaches directly to the back the Bridge or DAC's USB input.  But this still does not fix the fact your Bridges or DAC's USB input may not be the exact impedance.  So the Regen was designed to absorb those back reflected waves.
  
 The PS and G modulated noise inside DAC does double harm - in addition to the noise modulating with the USB board clocks and processor, it also feeding this noise into the DAC's chips and clocks ground and PS.  So thereby polluting now only the USB board but the DAC board as well.  Having an external USB Bridge (hopefully plugged into a completely separate PS isolation and filtering device like the Audio Art PB 4x4 Pro to isolate the noise for the rest of the home's power) - can help keep the DAC's PS clean.
  
 What a neat device!
  
 Hey Uptone how about a Regen for the S/PDIF coax input!  I'll be first in line


----------



## stuartmc

@rb2013,
  
 That sir, was a killer post!  Thanks for putting that together for us.


----------



## Core32

prot said:


> OTOH, http://www.head-fi.org/t/613387/msb-analog-dac-review-p3/250_50#post_12011526


 
  
 I just read through that entire thread.
 Unfortunately it fell into a "defend the great product" thread by product adopters and apparently the company owner?
 I am of the opinion, and I clearly state now that I am an engineer that "needs" to see some measureable reason for a certain result, that the guys making the measurements are correct.
 None of the defenders could/would show any proof of how the improvement comes about, other than anecdotal results.
 Even though they heavily questioned the test methods, they had no test results of their own apparently.
 And I clearly don't understand the push-back against some coordinated blind testing.
 I have not been around the audiophile crowd enough to understand the aversion (fear?) to this testing I suppose.


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> @rb2013,
> 
> That sir, was a killer post!  Thanks for putting that together for us.


 

 Hey thanks!  I'm looking forward to reading more on CA about the Regen - John and Alex are really open about the technical stuff.


----------



## prot

core32 said:


> I just read through that entire thread.
> Unfortunately it fell into a "defend the great product" thread by product adopters and apparently the company owner?
> I am of the opinion, and I clearly state now that I am an engineer that "needs" to see some measureable reason for a certain result, that the guys making the measurements are correct.
> None of the defenders could/would show any proof of how the improvement comes about, other than anecdotal results.
> ...



Agree with you but unfortunately most so called audiophiles seem to have a strange anti-measurements mindset. Asking for measurements/proof on an audio forum is usually online suicide. 
Anyway, as far as I seen there's a lot of hype around those regen devices and almost no substance.


----------



## rb2013

More great stuff from the Uptone engineer John Swenson:
  
 On how the USB bridge or USB board inside a DAC processes the incoming data stream from the PC:
  


> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 So here John makes a very important point on power supplies (he calls PDN 'power delivery network') - that it's not the 'ripple value' that is so frequently looked at - but the impedance of the power supply! 
  
"It is important to note that the packet noise in the​DACis generated inside the​ DACby its own components processing the​USBdata, NOT coming from the outside world over the​USBcable or power supply of the​DAC. *The impedance (over a broad frequency range) of the PS is PART of the PDN impedance so it does have an affect on the packet noise. This is critical to understand, the impedance of the power supply is far more important than the noise level of the power supply, the packet noise is generated by the *​*DAC** itself, NOT coming in off the external supply, since the supply is an important part of the PDN impedance, the supply impedance is more important than it's actual noise level.*"​  
 The noise generated is internal - from the both the USB processor PHY and USB protocol engine.  This is the first time I have heard this before.  But makes complete sense.
  
 He could not eliminate this 'packet noise' completely but by very careful design he could reduce it dramatically.  So the DAC does not have to deal with it so much - creating it's own internal noise - that feedbacks through it's own PS system to affect say the internal clocks.
  
 Genius!
  
 This all makes the case for a external USB bridge even stronger  - one with it's own power filter.  I run Audio Breeze on a separate line from the DAC with it's own separate dedicated Art Audio PB 4X4 Pro (must be the Pro version) filter - which has both a Common mode and Differential Mode filter.  This helps prevent the USB bridge's noise from feeding back through the power system.  They are not to expensive ($85 on Ebay), I think this is better then a more expensive unit that all equipment shares.  I have a separate dedicated PB4X4 Pro for the DAC and another for the PC.  On the Hydra Z the LPS (linear power supply) is also isolated by a separate dedicated PB4X4 Pro (I have 7 now total).
  


> All PRO SERIES models have an additional internal discrete module called APF™ (Advanced Power Filtering) which filters out digital and dimmer hash as well as any high frequency noise that is above the audio range. Some off-the-shelf add-on modules saturate and lose their filtering effectiveness as the load increases, but by using a high power discrete design we were able to create a filter that stays effective over the full operating range.
> By using both Common Mode and Differential Mode topologies in series for the filter design we are able to block virtually all of the unwanted noise that is between the AC line and ground, and also the two sides of the AC line. This has the additional benefit of reducing ground loop problems in your system. High frequency noise currents in particular are highly attenuated in both directions so that any line noise that could be generated by one of your components is not allowed to get back into your main A.C. wiring so if you use a number of PRO SERIES Power Conditioners in your setup, you can distribute and isolate the noisy components from the sensitive components in your system. Additionally, any signals above 10kHz are filtered from the line with over 40dB of attenuation above 100kHz and beyond.
> Every PRO SERIES power conditioner is designed with a power capacity of 1800 Watts, surge/spike protection, APF with EMI & RFI filtering, front-mounted unswitched power outlet and an adjustable rear-mounted gooseneck light source for bright illumination behind the rack. The spacing and alignment of the rear outlets to accommodate various size power plugs and AC adapters.


 
  
 Now the case for AES and S/PDIF from the USB bridge to the DAC, once the USB is clean up and the SI is the best it can be:
  
 Posted by another member:


> S/PDIFor​AES3is a lot slower data rate than​USB, so the incidence of packet noise is not so bad​
> 
> 
> 
> There's the issue of timing with​S/PDIFand quite a few devices, for example Wyrd4Sound Remedy, Mutec 1.2, RME PCI cards and others provide this correct timing. Every bit helps, the Regen cleans up the​USBend of any​USB-​S/PDIFconverter. Now if I could only experience that, the first step towards that goal is for Superdad to provide a quote from the website the other day that's slightly overdue, thanks.​


 
  Oh BTW these guys know power supplies - their $925 JS-2:
 http://uptoneaudio.com/products/js-2-linear-power-supply
  

  
  


> *Dual-output, choke-filtered linear power supply with four user-selectable DC output voltages.  *
> Two independently adjustable, separately regulated outputs; Voltage choices are user set from the back panel: 5V, 7V, 9V, or 12V.
> Guaranteed current capability is 5 amps continuous from either output at any voltage setting.
> (Up to 6.8 amps split between outputs, depending upon DC voltage combination; Instantaneous capability of up to 10A).
> ...


----------



## Core32

> He could not eliminate this 'packet noise' completely but by very careful design he could reduce it dramatically.  So the DAC does not have to deal with it so much - creating it's own internal noise - that feedbacks through it's own PS system to affect say the internal clocks.


 
  
 Is there any proof to this statement? I ask because I have not seen one single bit of evidence other than the written word.
 IF the reduction is "dramatic" it should be very easy to measure and observe.


----------



## rb2013

core32 said:


> Is there any proof to this statement? I ask because I have not seen one single bit of evidence other than the written word.
> IF the reduction is "dramatic" it should be very easy to measure and observe.


 

 Well, after 30 yrs in high end audio - I don't put much faith in 'measurements' as often the engineers are 'measuring' the wrong thing.  For example, in the '70s the move to solid state hifi - all the rage as the test bench IM and THD measures were very good.  Better by a factor of 10 over the old tube amps - the declaration that tubes were a relic.  How did that turn out?
  
 Stereophile and Audio magazine (I was a long time subscriber) had all the ads and were thick publications, every review replete with 'test bench' charts and graphs.  Get one of these on Ebay and read through it - it would make you laugh.  Then this little 6" by 6" almost no pictures - and absolutely no ads publication came out - called 'The Absolute Sound' by a fellow named Harry Pearson.  He threw out all the "But the Engineers say it must sound better it has lower THD (total harmonic distortion)" common thinking.  And spoke of the better sound of tube equipment - he of course was derided by the measurement people.  But high quality US manufactures like ARC (Audio Research Corp) and Conrad Johnson and well McIntosh - were selling lot's of very expensive tube gear.
  
 So where are Pioneer, Sansui, Kenwood today?  How about Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, McIntosh?
  
 Then came CDs - Wash, Rinse, Repeat...
  
 So go ahead and pick your equipment based on 'measurements' like old HP (now deceased - will miss you 'bro) - I trust my ears.  Test equipment does not 'hear' music but my ears sure do.


----------



## Core32

That was not my question. And I do not pick my equipment based on measurements alone.
 In fact I pick it based on probably 90% of peoples experiences. I just read very carefully and look for fluff before I decide who's experience I trust.
 The issue I see is making statements like the one I quoted above.
 A statement like that sounds as if there were measurements taken because you would not know there was a "dramatic" change without them.
 Otherwise you just can't say it with any truth behind it.
 If it just sounds so damn good but you don't know exactly why, just say that.


----------



## rb2013

core32 said:


> That was not my question. And I do not pick my equipment based on measurements alone.
> In fact I pick it based on probably 90% of peoples experiences. I just read very carefully and look for fluff before I decide who's experience I trust.
> The issue I see is making statements like the one I quoted above.
> A statement like that sounds as if there were measurements taken because you would not know there was a "dramatic" change without them.
> ...


 
 Oh you didn't ask how it sounds or what has been the feedback on the Uptone Regen - just asked about measurements.
  
 I was quoting a noted very talented engineer - why don't you ask him - on another thread.


----------



## Core32

They have been asked on another thread for sure.
 Oh, and there are a lot of "noted very talented engineers" in the world.


----------



## rb2013

I went to order a second Regen for my other system - now both October's and November's 500 unit productions are sold out - taking pre orders for December.
  
 I bet it sounds like s**t. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 If anyone has one of these crappy little pieces of 'snake oil' I'll gladly take it off your hands - at a premium. No measurements required.


----------



## Core32

Good for you.
 A lot of people bought VW diesels as well based on the written word.
 Guess how that's working out for them now?


----------



## rb2013

core32 said:


> Good for you.
> A lot of people bought VW diesels as well based on the written word.
> Guess how that's working out for them now?


 

 Oh so you run your own pollution and MPG analysis at the dealer before you buy.
  
 Thanks for making my point - the 'measurements' on these GDI's were gamed by their engineers.


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> I went to order a second Regen for my other system - now both October's and November's 500 unit productions are sold out - taking pre orders for December.
> 
> I bet it sounds like s**t. :basshead:
> 
> If anyone has one of these crappy little pieces of 'snake oil' I'll gladly take it off your hands - at a premium. No measurements required. :wink_face:




I'm sorry pal my Regen sounds so crappy and well, "oily" that I couldn't possibly foist it upon another head-fier. I've decided to keep it in my system as a means of penance for my shameful materialism. As a bonus, I find that taping it in place at the end of a long USB cord makes for a most efficacious flagellum.


----------



## stuartmc

He he


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> I'm sorry pal my Regen sounds so crappy and well, "oily" that I couldn't possibly foist it upon another head-fier. I've decided to keep it in my system as a means of penance for my shameful materialism. As a bonus, I find that taping it in place at the end of a long USB cord makes for a most efficacious flagellum.


 
 HA! LMAO!   We all need 'Audio Falgellum' in our system.  Can I get a Regen/cable with a 'rattle' on the end?


----------



## rb2013

More awesome John Swenson on the 4 layer board and impedance matching and back wave reflection.
  


> The regen uses a 4 layer board, primarily to allow a proper impedance match. With a standard thickness 2 layer board it is impossible to attain a proper impedance match to the hub chip. The pins on the chip are small and close together, this necessitates very thin board traces, with a two layer board the distance between ground plane and these traces (BTW this is called a differential micro-strip configuration) produce an impedance that is much greater than the spec. With a four layer board the ground plane can be much closer to the top layer which allows for appropriate impedance with the very narrow traces. The regen also uses SMD USB jacks which allow for appropriate trace width and spacing to continue the impedance matching through to the USB jacks. The result of this is that there will be very minimal reflections at the regen side. Even if the DAC does not have good impedance matching (which is pretty common) which WILL cause a reflection at the DAC end, it will be absorbed at the regen because of the proper impedance matching.
> 
> The regen has a frequency optimized Power Delivery network (PDN), which turns out to make a very significant improvement in SQ. This is quite a technical subject, WAY beyond what I can post here, but here is the mile high summary:
> 
> ...


 
  
 I will send an email to Uptone to request they considera S/PDIF coax impedance matching box as a possible new project - a Regen for SPDIF.  After my second order.
  
 "The result of this is that there will be very minimal reflections at the regen side. *Even if the DAC does not have good impedance matching (which is pretty common) which WILL cause a reflection at the DAC end, it will be absorbed at the regen because of the proper impedance matching*."


----------



## prot

core32 said:


> Is there any proof to this statement? I ask because I have not seen one single bit of evidence other than the written word.
> IF the reduction is "dramatic" it should be very easy to measure and observe.




That did work great for you 



rb2013 said:


> I was quoting a noted very talented engineer - why don't you ask him - on another thread.




Very good idea. May I also ask you to post all that regen&jw lalala in the regen thread?


----------



## rb2013

Well thanks for policing my thread. But the posted information is very pertinent to the discussion of USB bridges and USB audio in general. 

Sorry if it's a bit over your head. They're calling for you over on the MSB thread, your commentary is urgently needed.


----------



## Core32

prot said:


> That did work great for you


 
  
 Actually I got exactly what we both expected.  
 All deflection and no answer.


----------



## rb2013

Great story on the Regen 1.1 upgrade - amazing the insight from these folks!  I'm a true audio skeptic - but they have really impressed me.
  
 So on to the story of the Corning 3 cable and the Regen 1.1 mod:
  


> *RESISTANCE IS NOT FUTILE! *
> 
> Let's cut right to the chase:
> We have added $0.40 worth of tiny resistors to the circuit board of the USB REGEN and* increased its musical performance by 40-50%—most especially in the bass! *Anyone who has a REGEN will be astonished by the improvement, and anyone who hears the new one for the first time will be even more amazed. Given the already unanimous rave reviews being heaped on the REGEN by people around the world who got one from the mid-April first run—it is hard to fathom how the thing could get that much better. But it has. And John Swenson and I are feeling rather gleeful about it.  *It really is a huge advancement for this already extremely effective device.*
> ...


 
 So like adding a bypass cap to a coupling capacitor circuit (or the NDK clocks) this addition of a small resistor across the data line yielded amazing results.  Any designer or advanced modder (sorry Core32 and prot - don't mean to exclude you erudite chaps- hope you enjoyed the story!), who has heard what a small .01uf bypass - my favs are the Vishay-Roderstein MKP1837's - can do to the SQ of a circuit can truly believe this.
  
 Now a bypass acts as a very tiny conduit between the main caps +/- leads, and therefore a stabilizer and slight discharge link.  This small resistor acts in the opposite direction - adding resistance to the data lines -and as John explains with resistance the ground seeks a new path away from the connection.
  
 Truly amazing how they came across this discovery and then the quick implementation in the Regen 1.1 (I call it that as it is a slight revision on the original circuit).  This is exactly why I have held off until now to make my purchases (that and awaiting the user feedback which has been overwhelming positive).
  
 Keep going guys!


----------



## Triplefun

I am more intrigued than ever. So do I get a regen 1.1 to enhance my Gustard X10, or do I get the Gustard X20u?


----------



## rb2013

triplefun said:


> I am more intrigued than ever. So do I get a regen 1.1 to enhance my Gustard X10, or do I get the Gustard X20u?


Tough call...you know what I'd do of course...get both.


----------



## abartels

Hi guys,
  
 I sold my heavily modded MX-U8 today to a VERY lucky guy, tomorrow it will leave my home 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Since I am planning to build a complete dac, I am willing to sell my Gustard U12 (modded with caps and NDK Crystals) too.
 It is 230V version only.
  
 If somebody is interested, send me PM please.
  
  
 Regards,
  
  
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I sold my heavily modded MX-U8 today to a VERY lucky guy, tomorrow it will leave my home
> 
> ...


 

 Good luck!
  
 BTW to just get the terminology straight the Uptone calls the Regen 1.0 'Green' and the 1.1 'Amber'.
 Cheers!


----------



## crazychile

rb2013 said:


> Good luck!
> 
> BTW to just get the terminology straight the Uptone calls the Regen 1.0 'Green' and the 1.1 'Amber'.
> Cheers!


 
  
 Yes, and from what I remember it was only the first batch (maybe 75 units?) that were the Green version.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Good luck!
> 
> BTW to just get the terminology straight the Uptone calls the Regen 1.0 'Green' and the 1.1 'Amber'.
> Cheers!


 
  
 Thanks Bob!


----------



## rb2013

crazychile said:


> Yes, and from what I remember it was only the first batch (maybe 75 units?) that were the Green version.


 

 I think it was a bit more like 100, as Alex posted that like 96 out of 100 took their upgrade offer - but close enough.
 Solid chaps - Uptone offered a very gracious update policy for those folks.


----------



## glip

Hi hi!  I got the GUSTARD U12 a Mac Mini and a Analog Hi-Fi sistema… (SEA/NAD/VIENA ACUSTICS). I am using my Mac as sound machine… but I do not know how to connet my GUSTARD U12 to the analog sistme… can somebody help!!


----------



## glip

Hi hi! 
  
I got the GUSTARD U12 a Mac Mini and a Analog Hi-Fi sistema… SEA/NAD/VIENA ACUSTICS. I am using my Mac as sound machine… but I do not know how to connet my GUSTARD U12 to the analog sistme… can somebody help!!


----------



## stuartmc

glip said:


> [COLOR=2B2B2B]Hi hi![/COLOR]
> 
> [COLOR=2B2B2B]I got the GUSTARD U12 a Mac Mini and a Analog Hi-Fi sistema… SEA/NAD/VIENA ACUSTICS. I am using my Mac as sound machine… but I do not know how to connet my GUSTARD U12 to the analog sistme… can somebody help!![/COLOR]



If I understand you correctly, you are trying to connect the digital output of the U12 to the analog input of your preamp. That's a no no. The U12 only changes the USB digital feed from your mac mini to another digital output like coaxial spdif. You have to have a DAC in your system after the U12.


----------



## rb2013

glip said:


> Hi hi!
> 
> I got the GUSTARD U12 a Mac Mini and a Analog Hi-Fi sistema… SEA/NAD/VIENA ACUSTICS. I am using my Mac as sound machine… but I do not know how to connet my GUSTARD U12 to the analog sistme… can somebody help!!


 

 You need a DAC.  The U12 is only a USB bridge.  That is between the PC and a DAC.  The DAC connects to your analog hifi


----------



## ginetto61

glip said:


> Hi hi!
> I got the GUSTARD U12 a Mac Mini and* a Analog Hi-Fi sistema… SEA/NAD/VIENA ACUSTICS*. ...


 
  
 Hi could you list your units ? maybe one accepts digital signals
 What is Sea ?  and which Nad model you have ?
 bye, gino


----------



## rb2013

Sold the iFi iDAC2 - not a very good USB bridge, or DAC for that matter.  Lifeless, 2D sound stage, constricted dynamics.  At least compared to my tubed DACs (to be fair they are much more expensive - the APL is 15X more).
  
 It ranked last in my USB bridge shootout.
  
 Tried it with both the Li Ion power and the TeraDak linear power supply.
  
 Not a great, but not a terrible HP amp.  Could have had more gain on my HD800's and Senn 450's.  Way overpriced IMO.
  
 I see iFi has a new iUSB 3.0.  Would be interested in trying that.  Looks interesting  - but the marketing hype is over the top extreme.  All this fighter jet stuff - Ugg!  How about some technical stuff on how you:


> Total USB Solution+® banishes ALL USB audio gremlins
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


> USB Hub 2xDual-Ports® just add DAC and HDD


 
 http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-iusb3-0/
  
 They also now tout the USB 'regeneration' thing without giving the details, like Uptone does.  I believe it's like $400 in the US.
 I guess trying to hop on the Regen bandwagon.  Still I'm curious.


----------



## glip

Hi!!! And Thanks a lot for your fast reply!! 
  
 Well,  I thought I got a DAC... to bad.
  
 Well now I have to buy one... I have an other question... what should I buy to take  thought of the Gustard u12??? or is it better to forget the unit and buy an other DAC or a reall DAC?? or I can complement it and make a better soud?
  
 Or can you suggest something?
  
 Pre amp SAE 2100L (Scientific Audio Electronics)
 Amp NAD THX 2400
 Speakers Viena Acustics
 Mac mini 
 No Digital entries...
  
 Thanks a lot stuartmc, Rb, gino!!
  
 Felipe


----------



## glip

what should I buy take advantage of my Gustard u 12???


----------



## glip

Can this do the job?? SMSL M6 32Bit/384KHz USB asynchronous DAC Decoder golden
  
 http://www.amazon.com/SMSL-M6-384KHz-asynchronous-Decoder/dp/B00WQXLY6I/ref=sr_1_262?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1437784083&sr=1-262&keywords=dac
  
  
 Is it worth it?? Can I used one with the other?? will it soud beber than only the SMSL???
  
 Thanks again!!
  
 Felipe


----------



## glip

Hi!! can the SMSL M6 32Bit/384KHz USB asynchronous DAC work with the Gustard U12?? is it worth it?? Can they work better together than only the SMSL?? 
  
 How can I hook them bouth??
  
 Thanks... I am Really new at the digital world!! ...sorry =P
  
 Felipe


----------



## prot

glip said:


> what should I buy take advantage of my Gustard u 12???



any component which includes a DAC and has a coaxial or optical or AES input.
even more useful: a book about audio reproduction ... or at least a few wiki articles.


----------



## rb2013

glip said:


> Hi!!! And Thanks a lot for your fast reply!!
> 
> Well,  I thought I got a DAC... to bad.
> 
> ...


 

 I'd get the Lite DAC60 - for $650 it's killer good!  The U12 would feed the DAC60 by S/PDIF cable - very easy and inexpensive to find.  Just plug and play.
  
 So it would look like this PC or Laptop>U12>DAC60>SAE
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lite-DAC-60-Hi-Fi-D-A-Convertor-Tube-Output-Brand-New-/321461674743?hash=item4ad89be2f7mgXlNbdDKrmZ-P4iZSyEzUQ


----------



## rb2013

glip said:


> Hi!! can the SMSL M6 32Bit/384KHz USB asynchronous DAC work with the Gustard U12?? is it worth it?? Can they work better together than only the SMSL??
> 
> How can I hook them bouth??
> 
> ...


 

 You can feed the SMSL with the U12 by optical or coax S/PDIF - that would likely sound better then going directly in to the SMSL USB.
  
 Good Luck and welcome to the asylum!


----------



## prot

rb2013
Here's an intersting DDC for you to test ... it even has a fancy audiophile name: reclocker  .. expect audiophile prices too
http://www.totaldac.com/D1-digital-eng.htm

glip
The graphic on that page should be useful for you too .. the red component is basically your u12.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> @rb2013
> Here's an intersting DDC for you to test ... it even has a fancy audiophile name: reclocker
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Old 'Prot' you sure love spending my money. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But thanks for sharing that - I love TotalDAC's tube DAC - but $4K for a 'reclocker' that's kinda spendy.


----------



## rb2013

Ok So I have a Regen amber coming - paid a $10 premium to not have to wait 4 weeks.
  
 Assuming it does sound good - My plan is to mount it directly inside one of the USB DDC's - bypass the Chinese USB adapter and the dangling off the back of the DDC - wire with Mundorf solid silver teflon wire from the USB outputs directly to the DDC's USB inputs.  Then mount it inside - keep the PS completely separate - use an R-core on the DDC (get rid of the Toroidal) and a R-Core LPS on the Regen (ditch that SMPS it comes with).  Add some RFI/EMI shielding.  Use only a data USB cable -
 Thinking of replacing the optical isolators with some thing better.
  
 Basically a DIY USB bridge project.
  
 Found out something cool about the TerDak R-core SB30W linear power supply - it has a voltage adjustment inside.  Since the Regen will take from 6VDC to 8.5VDC (at 9VDC it starts to run very hot), and see at what voltage it sounds best.  That'll take awhile.


----------



## glip

Thanks a lot!!! ...from Mexico City!! =P


----------



## glip

THANKS!! the Lite DAC60 is far from my budget!!! I´ll go for the SMSL!!! THANKS A LOT!!! =P ...muchas gracias!!! ...desde mexico =)


----------



## jmissias

Gustard u12 compatible with USB 3.0?


----------



## glip

I do not know...


----------



## rb2013

jmissias said:


> Gustard u12 compatible with USB 3.0?


 

 Yes all USB 2.0 high speed devices are - it doesn't operate at USB 3.0 super speed - but that level of through put is not needed.  As the USB 2.0 high speed can easily hand up to 384k PCM and DSD 128.


----------



## elwappo99

luckbad said:


> Has anyone heard both the Gustard U12 and Audio-GD DI-2014? I'm on the prowl for a good (but not OR5 level) USB->SPDIF converter. Thanks!


 
  
 Bit of an old post, but I had a Gustard U12 and compared it to my Audio-GD DI and was terribly disappointed with the Gustard U12 in comparison. USB audio is a really new thing and the technology is quickly evolving, but it seems AGD still is on the cutting edge of what's going on. 
  
 With all the hype in this thread, I was really expecting the Gustard to be a knock out, but in reality, I think it hits at about a $100 USB converter. It sounded dull, grainy and undetailed compared to the Audio-GD. 
  
 Good luck in your search!


----------



## rb2013

elwappo99 said:


> Bit of an old post, but I had a Gustard U12 and compared it to my Audio-GD DI and was terribly disappointed with the Gustard U12 in comparison. USB audio is a really new thing and the technology is quickly evolving, but it seems AGD still is on the cutting edge of what's going on.
> 
> With all the hype in this thread, I was really expecting the Gustard to be a knock out, but in reality, I think it hits at about a $100 USB converter. It sounded dull, grainy and undetailed compared to the Audio-GD.
> 
> Good luck in your search!


 
 Well that's one vote against - and many for it.  But after doing my own USB bridge shootout - the Gustard U12 was near the bottom of the list.
  
 The Hydra Z and Audio Breeze are really on another level.
  
 Now the Gustard U12 I used - I had upgraded the PS caps - so it was modded.  Same for the Melodious MX-U8 (which is better IMO then the U12).   The iDAC2 was at the bottom - but is really a DAC, as it can be used as a USB bridge as well.
  
 The thread is very popluar with over 215,000 views and a mention in a StereoTimes Review:
  
 http://www.stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/


> Which brings us back to USB converters. So, as I was saying (writing), I bought the Gustard U12 32-bit XMOS converter on the recommendation of rb2013 (among others), and it was… excellent! It was definitely as advertised. It had mproved bass and dynamics, over and above my Audiophilleo, and a bit more “relaxed” sounding. Then rb2013 threw a curveball at his Head-Fi faithful, he had an affair with another converter he said greatly bettered the U12, which in turn, had bettered a lot of the “high priced” spread.  He then decided to boot the U12 and move in with said new converter on a more permanent basis. That new converter was the equally cheerful, equally Chinese (though not equally cheap at $230 USD) Melodious Audio MX-U8.  Similarly capable in terms of high sample rate conversion and employing the highly regarded up-to-date programmable XMOS multicore microcontroller topology but with a more robust power supply, improved circuit isolation and perhaps more accurate digital clocks, the MX-U8 sez rb2013 was better; punchier, more detailed, weightier in the bass, bigger soundstage, the works. So I bought one.  And it was! Somewhat. Not as warm/pleasant (?) as the Gustard, but slightly more detailed, forward and punchier and with a bit more expansive stage. The Gustard was good. Very good. I could actually still see preferring it in certain systems, but my preference perhaps leaned toward the not-night-and-day-better MX-U8.


 
  
 I don't think you've been reading this thread in a very long while - so maybe you should do more reading before firing the flame thrower.
 This thread had moved past the U12 - I least have and many of the regular posters have about a hundred pages ago.  Alex even spun off a great thread on the Melodious MX-U8 and some really innovative mods.  
  
 From what I read the Audio-GD DI  2014 is more expensive then the $150 Gustard U12 or $150 Audio Breeze.  Their website has it listed for $310 with the TXCO clocks (they look like the same ones Gustard, Melodious and Breeze use).  That's with the R-core transfomer.
  
 The PUC2 Lite is another one I'd like to hear - but at $500 it's in another price level.  Same for the beautiful Tanly at $600.  So there have been many fine USb bridges (and better then the U12's) talked about here.
  
 I do want to try the DIYinHK DXIO PRO3A before I write my mini-review on the ones I've compared.  It's $168.
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/97-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html


----------



## ginetto61

glip said:


> THANKS!! the Lite DAC60 is far from my budget!!! I´ll go for the SMSL!!! THANKS A LOT!!! =P ...muchas gracias!!! ...desde mexico =)


 
  
 Hi
 Yes. The U12 works like a bridge from usb to other digital standards.
 A nice thing with the U12 is its flexibility.
 that you can connect almost any dac around.
  
http://g01.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB16mPGGXXXXXb6XpXXq6xXFXXXz/201638448/HTB16mPGGXXXXXb6XpXXq6xXFXXXz.jpg
  
 I have both the U12 and the Melodious MX-U8 also mentioned and i like the Melodious better (without any modifications).
 I understand that the U12 benefits a lot from mods ... but this is for skilful people.
  
*However *if you have the chance *try to listen as many dacs as possible in your system before buying them. *
*Some older dacs still have a very good sound *and can be found for very nice prices on the market.
 For istance i have found a very nice sound Cambridge Audio Dac3 for the equivalent of 150 USD.
 And it sounds quite musical to me.
 Read reviews and put down a list of most wanted ... then look for them.
 Also some professional units are not bad at all.  Maybe you will get satisfaction with not big money.
 Then with the time you will understand more how high you want to go.  Maybe.
 Good luck !
 Regards,  gino


----------



## hgpsemaj

I connected my lightly mod U12 to my newly built AK4495SEK DAC via the HDMI/I2S output, the replay is detailed and great.
  
  

  
  
 This HDMI cable enable me to abandon the 5V from U12, and feed it from an external linear power supply,


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> Old 'Prot' you sure love spending my money. :wink_face:
> 
> But thanks for sharing that - I love TotalDAC's tube DAC - but $4K for a 'reclocker' that's kinda spendy.




Being TheExpert does not come cheap 

I didnt even check the price of that total reclocker cause I knew it would be ugly .. but $4k is wildly exagerated even by audiophile standards. Even the super-duper berkeley ddc 'only' costs $1500. 

And btw, there were some PUCs on ebay.de recently for about €190... maybe you can still find one.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi
> Yes. The U12 works like a bridge from usb to other digital standards.
> A nice thing with the U12 is its flexibility.
> that you can connect almost any dac around.
> ...


 
 Great advice!  Check out Audiogon for used DAC listings - https://app.audiogon.com/categories/digital-da-converters
  
 Here is a DACMagic for $200 - maybe you can negotiate a lower price.  https://app.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-cambridge-audio-dacmagic-digital-to-analog-converter-2015-10-16-digital-32837-orlando-fl
  


hgpsemaj said:


> I connected my lightly mod U12 to my newly built AK4495SEK DAC via the HDMI/I2S output, the replay is detailed and great.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Nice!  Which LPS?  The TeraDak? 
  


prot said:


> Being TheExpert does not come cheap
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'll check that out - thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   BTW not 'TheExpert' I'll leave that moniker to old 'Prot'.


----------



## riffer

I'm just hoping that one day I am walking down the street I'll see a Empirical Audio Off-ramp with all the options sitting with the garbage cans. I did find the parts to build my first music server in a snowbank, so there is always hope


----------



## hgpsemaj

Precisely, The TeraDak.


----------



## rb2013

riffer said:


> I'm just hoping that one day I am walking down the street I'll see a Empirical Audio Off-ramp with all the options sitting with the garbage cans. I did find the parts to build my first music server in a snowbank, so there is always hope


 
 I need to visit Toronto in the winter!  Yes the OR5 is a very sweet unit.  And well the reason I was so intrgiued by these relatively inexpensive DDC's.  A 'basic' OR5 is $1300 - full decked out $2000+
  


hgpsemaj said:


> Precisely, The TeraDak.


 
 I really like that varibable voltage adjustment.  Some USB bridges need 5VDC (like the Hydra Z) and some units like the Regen need 6-8 VDC - these TeraDaks can do either.  Both the X1 and the R-Core SB30W have the adjuster (little blue box with the tiny brass screw).
  
 TeraDak X1:

  
 TeraDak SB30W R-Core:


----------



## rb2013

Well this talk of the Emperical Audio Off Ramp 5 - had me back over on their website - haven't been there in a long time.
  
 Discovered this little jem:


> f you want the S/PDIF or AES/EBU output to be improved, add the S/PDIF Hynes Reg option. AES is a lesser improvement.


 
  
 So over to the Hynes website to research this Hynes Regulator - not super expensive - will use one for the S/PDIF coax on my DIY USB bridge project.  Maybe one on the USB - but I think the Regen I plan to directly wire in - may be enough.  Only listening will tell.  Steve Nugent seems to very keen on these.
  
 Possibly will try one in my Lite DAC60 mod project on the tube circuit.
  
 http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/page6.html  Reasonably priced at about $45 each.
  
 More on regulators from Paul Hynes.
 http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/page3.html
  


> *Supply Regulation*
> 
> 
> Many audio equipment manufacturers use industry standard solid state regulators in their products because they are readily available, cheap and easy to apply. They offer reduced power supply ripple breakthrough from the rectifier / energy storage capacitor. This allows a much smaller energy storage capacitor to be used, which in turn reduces component costs considerably, more than offsetting the cost of the regulator itself. Multiple regulator systems can also be applied cheaply. The main benefit of using these devices is essentially one of cost reduction. Whilst this is a laudable aim, most enthusiasts will generally prefer to look for performance improvement before cost considerations.
> ...


 
 This is what I've been saying about the Audio Breeze use of the LM2941s - twice in two stages.  Vs the MX-U8 and U12.  The LM2941s maintains a high level of NR well into the 100kHz + band.  Where many other ultra low noise regulators drop off steeply.
  
 http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm2941.pdf  Note the PSRR chart - Figure 9 page 8.  68dB at 1Mhz!~


----------



## robertsong

chodi said:


> I modified the full version of the xmos driver 2.23 including the spy tool for the Gustard U12. I do not have a U12 to test it so one of you guys will have to try it and report back. I posted it here:
> 
> http://speedy.sh/RXMDH/Luckit-2.23-for-Gustard-U12.rar
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi. Is the 2.23 the most up-to-date driver? A mildly used U12 arrived today for me, and I'll be trying the Melodious unit as well (same driver for both units?).  I don't need a modified version.


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Hi. Is the 2.23 the most up-to-date driver? A mildly used U12 arrived today for me, and I'll be trying the Melodious unit as well (same driver for both units?).  I don't need a modified version.


 

 The Melodius and Gustard require a handshake for the Theyscon drivers to work, after you have the supplied one installed and working then you can DL one of the others - like Chodi's Wave I/O.


----------



## rb2013

Ok the Regen amber has landed!  Very, very nice!  Feeding with the LPS TeraDak R-core SB30W set at 7VDC.  Also put in the Jitterbug on the same USB line - just a notch better as well.
  
 The Regen/LPS by far is the biggest difference.  But I feel the JB is worth it.
  
 Richer, more vivid tonal colors and snappier dynamics.  A winner for sure.
  
 Jack is happy!


----------



## robertsong

rb2013 said:


> The Melodius and Gustard require a handshake for the Theyscon drivers to work, after you have the supplied one installed and working then you can DL one of the others - like Chodi's Wave I/O.


 
  
  
 Struggling with that Chinese website. Any other links?
  
 I suppose Thesycon's stock drivers need script editing? I have been through that before a couple of years ago.
  
  
 Yes, Chodi's modified version did NOT work for me just like you implied.


----------



## DACLadder

Quote:


robertsong said:


> Hi. Is the 2.23 the most up-to-date driver? A mildly used U12 arrived today for me, and I'll be trying the Melodious unit as well (same driver for both units?).  I don't need a modified version.


 
  
 The latest official U12 USB driver is 2.26.   This version has the proper credentials to load onto Windows 8.1 or Windows 10.   You can download here.   https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=D0AB7686EA250D95&resid=D0AB7686EA250D95%214056&authkey=AKASKTkcgS8A2xE
  
 Click on the single icon "XMOS Stereo-USB" to bring up another page with 22 files.  Then just simply click "Download" in the upper left to copy a .zip file (with all necessary files) your hard disk.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> Quote:
> 
> The latest official U12 USB driver is 2.26.   This version has the proper credentials to load onto Windows 8.1 or Windows 10.   You can download here.   https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=D0AB7686EA250D95&resid=D0AB7686EA250D95%214056&authkey=AKASKTkcgS8A2xE
> 
> Click on the single icon "XMOS Stereo-USB" to bring up another page with 22 files.  Then just simply click "Download" in the upper left to copy a .zip file (with all necessary files) your hard disk.


 

 Thanks - do you know if it's the full functionality like Vol and Bal control?  Using the Oppo 2.24 right now on the AB.  It has.


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> Thanks - do you know if it's the full functionality like Vol and Bal control?  Using the Oppo 2.24 right now on the AB.  It has.


 

 I think it is just a straight USB driver with nothing special like tools, etc.  This 2.26 driver is what was supplied on the CD when I purchased the U12 from Amazon.


----------



## robertsong

Ok, 2.26(3033) driver installed beautifully, but U12 is not recognized (w/ reboot). Any ideas?
  
 rb2013 is sending me a different one to try.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> I think it is just a straight USB driver with nothing special like tools, etc.  This 2.26 driver is what was supplied on the CD when I purchased the U12 from Amazon.


 

 Well I'll give it a try to see if there is a sound difference.   Otherwise, the Oppo 2.24 has a great suite of functions.  There is a 3.0 but I never could get it to work.
  
 Well I just gave it a try - really could not hear a difference.  So i'm going back to the 2.24.
  
 I will say that JPlay is highly recommended - it does make a difference.


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Ok, 2.26(3033) driver installed beautifully, but U12 is not recognized (w/ reboot). Any ideas?
> 
> rb2013 is sending me a different one to try.


 

 Your Gustard should have come with a mini-CD with the handshake driver on it.  Did you buy it new?  Take a look in the box it might be there.  Once you have the handshake version installed you can then use another version like the 2.26


----------



## robertsong

robertsong said:


> Ok, 2.26(3033) driver installed beautifully, but U12 is not recognized (w/ reboot). Any ideas?
> 
> rb2013 is sending me a different one to try.


 
  
 This what I get in device manager on 8.1 with the 2.26 driver DACladder gave me.
  
 http://i.imgur.com/BtnI1Qb.jpg
  
  
 That ridiculous mini-cd just hangs when I try to access the file.


----------



## robertsong

Ok, after about 6 attempts I was able to extract the file from that damn mini-cd. Everything working now. Thanks for the help guys!
  
  
 Guess this file should be uploaded somewhere.


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Ok, after about 6 attempts I was able to extract the file from that damn mini-cd. Everything working now. Thanks for the help guys!
> 
> 
> Guess this file should be uploaded somewhere.


 

 Success!  Every journey start with one faulty mini-cd...  as tip you can use Google Chrome and the the English translate feature - works great on most of these Chinese website.


----------



## debjitg

Does any one know if the Gustard U12 after DACLadder modification of the chip change will be compatible with the PS Audio DirectStream DAC on the I2S interface ? I got the U12 recently and have been splicing a cheap hdmi cable to see if the channel swap and phase change got fixed. It did when I swapped out pin 1/3 and 7/9 (as indicated earlier) but there is a preempahsys thing that gets engaged when playing PCM (not with DSD) with the DS dac which makes the highs rolled off. After speaking this with the PS audio folks, it appears that the U12 pin 15 (DSD Detect) gets engaged when playing PCM and that pin is considered SCL pin on the DS side. Here is the explanation that folks at PS audio gave me
  
 PS Audio                                                             U12
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 I2C SCL = 0          Clock (pin 15)                       DSD Detect
 I2C SDA = 1         Data  (pin 16)                       NOT USED
  
 This is the Marker for preemphasis. This is because the Transport uses these signals to signal preemphasis. So when playing pcm, somehow the combination of these pins gets engaged. I disconnected both these pins in the cable and that fixes all the problem. Now if I go the chip change route, I want to make sure that both the pins are "NOT USED" as this is exactly done with other DDC which works with PS Audio.


----------



## DACLadder

debjitg said:


> Does any one know if the Gustard U12 after DACLadder modification of the chip change will be compatible with the PS Audio DirectStream DAC on the I2S interface ? I got the U12 recently and have been splicing a cheap hdmi cable to see if the channel swap and phase change got fixed. It did when I swapped out pin 1/3 and 7/9 (as indicated earlier) but there is a preempahsys thing that gets engaged when playing PCM (not with DSD) with the DS dac which makes the highs rolled off. After speaking this with the PS audio folks, it appears that the U12 pin 15 (DSD Detect) gets engaged when playing PCM and that pin is considered SCL pin on the DS side. Here is the explanation that folks at PS audio gave me
> 
> PS Audio                                                             U12
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


 

 The U12 chip change only involves the four differential signals that carry clocks and audio data.   Looking at the pinout of the U12 HDMI connector there is nothing connected to pins 15 and 16 on the U12 side.  See below...
  
 So does PS Audio imply that pin 15 = 0 and pin 16 =1 to turn off pre-emphasis?  You mention "U12 pin 15 (DSD Detect) gets engaged when playing PCM".   Does this mean it is high ( = 1) but really needs to = 0  to turn off pre-emphasis?   And pin 16 = 1 as well which it may already float high since nothing seems to be connected on the U12 side.   Clarify this and perhaps we can add some addition rework steps to jumper these pins on the U12 HDMI connector to what they need to be for the PS Audio DAC.


----------



## debjitg

Thanks DacLadder.
  
 I think pin 15 is connected to "DSD Detect" signal on U12 side (not shown in the diagram you posted). The U12 raises this high whenever it sees a DSD data stream. Not sure what it does but it could be something that works with their DAC. Please take a look here
  
 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h5PMUBkldkpt1rCnAR4ZHYGZNeCe-vwIFyKWYMZWsX0/edit#gid=752436998
  
 According to PS Audio folks, the preemphasys is _only_  engaged when the following conditions are met
  
 I2C SCL = 0          Clock (pin 15 lo)
 I2C SDA = 1         Data  (pin 16 hi)     
  
 I see that preemphasys is only engaged when playing PCM files. It doesn't get engaged whenever DSD files are played. This would imply that Pin 15 is lo when playing PCM and it would be hi when playing DSD. Now I don't know why Pin 16 is always "hi" in both the case.
  
 When I disconnect both the pin 15 and 16 in the hdmi cable, both PCM and DSD files are played perfectly in PS Audio DAC.
  
 Please let me know if you need anything.


----------



## DACLadder

debjitg said:


> Thanks DacLadder.
> 
> I think pin 15 is connected to "DSD Detect" signal on U12 side (not shown in the diagram you posted). The U12 raises this high whenever it sees a DSD data stream. Not sure what it does but it could be something that works with their DAC. Please take a look here
> 
> ...


 

 So it just sounds like you need to ensure pin 16 always = 0.    DSD is engaged when pin 15 = 1 but needs to = 0 when playing back PCM.   Pin 16 appears not to be used on DSD (is this correct?).   In that case tie pin 16 to ground at the HDMI connector inside the U12 - that is if it not driven by some unknown logic inside the U12.
  
 I saw another Gustard thread that was DSD signaling only.   Pin 15 is connected but not Pin 16.   So on the U12 HDMI connector (inside the box) short HDMI pin 17 (ground) to pin 16.   Perfect time would be when you have it apart to make the chip swap.  See below....
http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs/30#post_11344003


----------



## debjitg

Thanks for the update. I think you are correct. If we can pull down pin 16 to lo (0), then anything on the pin 15 (DSD detect or not) will not matter to the PS Audio side. Therefore,
  
 For PCM
 =======
 I2C SCL/DSD Detect  = 0 
 I2C SDA/Not Used     = 0
  
 For DSD
 =======
 I2C SCL/DSD Detect  = 1
 I2C SDA/Not Used     = 0
  
 This would negate the logic to turn on preemphasys on the PS Audio side. Would this be correct assumption ?
  
 I haven't ordered the parts yet but thinking of ordering all the components for all mods that you did - clock, caps, lvds chip. Can I simply replace the clock chip with the Crystek or does it need additional components to mount it ? if so, could you please list down the parts as well ?


----------



## robertsong

Sorry, nevermind. Post deleted.


----------



## robertsong

Did anybody find a drop-in replacement transformer for the U12? Any consensus on the sound improvement (or not) on the Crystek clock replacements?
  
 I have read the vast majority in this monster thread, but did not find these answers yet.
  
  
 Yeah, I caught on way late to this U12. I'm really liking it already w/ 30 hours on it.


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Did anybody find a drop-in replacement transformer for the U12? Any consensus on the sound improvement (or not) on the Crystek clock replacements?
> 
> I have read the vast majority in this monster thread, but did not find these answers yet.
> 
> ...


 

 If you like the U12  - you should hear the Audio Breeze and the Hydra Z!  Miles ahead.  Not that the U12 isn't good - it is and beat these USB bridges I had:
3 different John Kenny's, M2Tech Highface and Evo, Audiophilleo 2, Musiland 02 and Musiland USB 3.0 USD
  
 I only modded mine with better PS caps.  It has a reserved polite presentation.  The Melodious a more incisive sound.

 The Breeze DU-U8 is well - just extraordinary!  Another octave lower of bass, more dynamics, better tonality, greater transparency, deeper and more holographic sound stage.  And just wonderfully sweet in sound.  The Hydra Z is similar - it has the Crystek CCHD-957 clocks.
  
 I believe Alex modded a U12 with the NDK's and found it did improve the sound somewhat.
  
 I would try a Regen/Jitterbug before changing the clocks - on the DU-U8's - the sound is now the best my system has ever sounded!  I can now sell my Analog stuff as the music sever has surpassed it's best qualities.
  
 The U12, MX-U8 and the Du-U8 all improve with good AC power filtering.  Preferably on a separate filter then the DAC.


----------



## DACLadder

debjitg said:


> Thanks for the update. I think you are correct. If we can pull down pin 16 to lo (0), then anything on the pin 15 (DSD detect or not) will not matter to the PS Audio side. Therefore,
> 
> For PCM
> =======
> ...


 
  
 The Crystek oscillators require some sort of adapter board to fit to the 14-pin DIP style footprint on the U12.   See the thread below starting on page 133 of this thread.   I'm not really thrilled with these adapters but they do work OK.   Soldering is a bitch though.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/1980#post_11731384   (Page 133)
  
 I also used a DIP socket for the oscillators instead of soldering directly to the U12.  Digkey part ED90428-ND.  This is optional but allows you to easily change oscillators later on.


----------



## robertsong

rb2013 said:


> If you like the U12  - you should hear the Audio Breeze and the Hydra Z!  Miles ahead.  Not that the U12 isn't good - it is and beat these USB bridges I had:
> 3 different John Kenny's, M2Tech Highface and Evo, Audiophilleo 2, Musiland 02 and Musiland USB 3.0 USD
> 
> I only modded mine with better PS caps.  It has a reserved polite presentation.  The Melodious a more incisive sound.
> ...


 
  
  
 Ok, cool. The thing is I'm intentionally looking looking for a mellower, more analog, & NOS type sound, and the U12 provides me that. That was the reason I wanted to try it in the first place. I don't know if changing the clocks (for example) to Crystek's would change the sound too much. At 40 hours I'm still hearing some sibilance on cymbals (more than I used too!) especially on jazz albums , but maybe that will improve with further break-in. This is the only fault I have. Detail is fine as I'm not a detail freak.
  
 So my intention with modding the U12 is to improve on a certain sound I'm liking. I have moved on from a Concero which is on par with the Audiophilleo, but not the sound I want. I'm not sure where the other "newer" models fit in here; MX-U8, DU-U8, Tanly, Hydra-Z. Maybe the older Hydra-X? Hard to guess.
  
 I use a PI MiniBUSS and good power cords so I have the AC filtering pretty much covered. Right where I want to be at least.
  
 Thank you for any insight on where to go from here.


----------



## robertsong

rb2013 said:


> I would try a Regen/Jitterbug before changing the clocks - on the DU-U8's - the sound is now the best my system has ever sounded!  I can now sell my Analog stuff as the music sever has surpassed it's best qualities.


 
  
 I tried a Jitterbug with my previous gear and I think the overall sound is more natural without it. That was my conclusion after having it in my system for 3 weeks. What would adding a Regen to the U12 do for me you think?


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Ok, cool. The thing is I'm intentionally looking looking for a mellower, more analog, & NOS type sound, and the U12 provides me that. That was the reason I wanted to try it in the first place. I don't know if changing the clocks (for example) to Crystek's would change the sound too much. At 40 hours I'm still hearing some sibilance on cymbals (more than I used too!) especially on jazz albums , but maybe that will improve with further break-in. This is the only fault I have. Detail is fine as I'm not a detail freak.
> 
> So my intention with modding the U12 is to improve on a certain sound I'm liking. I have moved on from a Concero which is on par with the Audiophilleo, but not the sound I want. I'm not sure where the other "newer" models fit in here; MX-U8, DU-U8, Tanly, Hydra-Z. Maybe the older Hydra-X? Hard to guess.
> 
> ...


 

 It'll get better out past 100hrs as the caps and clocks settle in.  You can try a very simple mod - replace the 25V 2200uf PS caps with Nichicon FGs or HWs.  The soldering of the SMD CCHD957's or NDK SD's to the DIP14 is not an easier task without damaging the crystals.
  
 To me the Gustard sounded veiled in comparison to the MX-U8, but definitely sweeter.  The Hydra Z and especially the DU-U8 where sweeter still, but opening up more and having greater detail then all the other DDC's I've tried.  Really I'm surprised at the SQ difference between these DDC's.  That's true in both my systems - one with a $6K APL 6-DACs per channel, Lundhl transformer coupled ECC99 output stage and the other a heavily modded true R2R DAC60. http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
  
 I've sold the Hydra Z to fund a ground up DIY USB build project - incorporating the Regen low impedance concepts.  Directly wiring a Regen USB outputs to the USB inputs - thus bypassing all the dangling and cheap connectors (my only criticism of the Regen is getting it attached securely to the back of the DU-U8).  Separate PS for the USB side from the Analog side, extreme attention to PS impedance and filtering, etc...
  
 Reading Uptone's John Swenson's theroies on USB 'Packet Noise' infiltration into the DAC side and even the USB clocks - has been very interesting.  But still puzzled why they shipped it with a noise polluting SMPS?  Well I just chucked that for LPS TeraDak R-core (which I'll be modding as well with better caps and other components).


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> I tried a Jitterbug with my previous gear and I think the overall sound is more natural without it. That was my conclusion after having it in my system for 3 weeks. What would adding a Regen to the U12 do for me you think?


 

 Well so far in my system it really made a noticeable difference.  I'm an amateur photographer - and I guess the best analogy would be a camera slightly out of focus.  The Regen brings a better focus to the sound, brighter more vivid tonality - the rich natural tone of the DU-U8 already just gets even better (that was hard for me to believe).  So before the Uptone only heard in comparison a tiny bit smeared.  The JB added just a touch of additional ease and natural flow.  Tiny in comparison to the Regen but added to it and noticeable and welcome.
  
 My servers, and entire digital chain is something I've been working on for several years to perfect.  It's reached a very refined level at this point - as has the rest of my system (recapped my amps with Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil really did wonders - not cheap though!).  So any 1% improvement at this point is noticeable and welcome.
  
 My Analog system will be sold to fund further improves though.  I have digitalize my entire LP collection using Steinberg WaveLab 6 and a ProAudio ADC - at 32 bit 176K sampling - now 2TBs worth.  Same for my SACD and DVD-A collections.  On top of 2,500 CDs using EAC.  All are in safe storage.  Now I can mix in my 300 different playlists.
  
 Every thing organized and found and played in seconds.  This USB part of the chain has been my recent focus - hence all the rolling and modding of DDC's and added USB gizmos.


----------



## robertsong

Thanks! Who should I purchase a DU-U8 from? This one sounds like something I NEED to try. I have found a couple Chinese vendors but nothing on eBay.
  
 I have read through your Lite Dac-60 mods. That's gotta sound fantastic.


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Thanks! Who should I purchase a DU-U8 from? This one sounds like something I NEED to try. I have found a couple Chinese vendors but nothing on eBay.
> 
> I have read through your Lite Dac-60 mods. That's gotta sound fantastic.


 

 You can try this one - ask for the Talema transformer upgrade it's only a little more.  If they won't get that for you try Doukmall - they're a bit more - but have good service.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Top-Asynchronous-XMOS-U8-I2S-audio-usb-device-support-DSD-Digital-audio-system/262010528369?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33874%26meid%3
  
 Yeah the modded DAC60 sounds pretty amazing.


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> You can try this one - ask for the Talema transformer upgrade it's only a little more.  If they won't get that for you try Doukmall - they're a bit more - but have good service.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Top-Asynchronous-XMOS-U8-I2S-audio-usb-device-support-DSD-Digital-audio-system/262010528369?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33874%26meid%3
> 
> Yeah the modded DAC60 sounds pretty amazing.


 
 They do. I asked. The Talema transformer is +20$, though I am not exactly sure how to conduct the transaction


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> They do. I asked. The Talema transformer is +20$, though I am not exactly sure how to conduct the transaction


The way I did it with doukmall, was they sent me an invoice for the difference. I just pd by paypal.


----------



## rb2013

OK second Regen arrived brand new.  Installed this morning in my main system. The used one I bought went into a very nice office second system at work.
  
 Not the big change in SQ I heard in the office system.  Maybe because it's new?  Clocks do need some run in time.  Same DDC (Breeze Audio DU-U8) but different DACs.  Using the better TeraDak LPS R-Core SB30W set to 7.5 VDC to power the Regen in this main system.  The sound is slightly more detailed but an a slight amount of edge appeared.  I'll try tonight without the JB.  Give it a weeks 24/7 run in then swap with the other one.  To see if it's maybe a variation in devices, a system synergy thing, or just a matter of burnin.
  
 Thinking about it - different USB cables too.  The main system using the Forza Twin Copper split cable the office a Silnote Poseidon USB.  I'll try switching cables as well.


----------



## robertsong

Haha, looks like doukmall just raised his price today...lol. He also added the upgraded transformer version.
  
  
 Anybody try the DIYINHK board? Any sound impressions? Looks like it's spec'd well with NDK NZ2520SD's, ultra-low noise linear power regulator, DA101 SPDIF Transformer, etc.
  
  
 This outboard version has a power switch that let's you power with an external PS. I have a 5V 3A Hynes PS, so I might give this one a shot.
  
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/97-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html
  
 Any thoughts?


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Haha, looks like doukmall just raised his price today...lol. He also added the upgraded transformer version.
> 
> 
> Anybody try the DIYINHK board? Any sound impressions? Looks like it's spec'd well with NDK NZ2520SD's, ultra-low noise linear power regulator, DA101 SPDIF Transformer, etc.
> ...


 
 As I've posted before the DIYinHK DIXOPro3a will be the 6th and final DDC I'll add to the shootout.  It takes a 5VDC input like the Hydra Z. 
  
 Just so happy right now with the DU-U8!  Really great!


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> You can try this one - ask for the Talema transformer upgrade it's only a little more.  If they won't get that for you try Doukmall - they're a bit more - but have good service.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Top-Asynchronous-XMOS-U8-I2S-audio-usb-device-support-DSD-Digital-audio-system/262010528369?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33874%26meid%3
> 
> Yeah the modded DAC60 sounds pretty amazing.




Few Qs about the new Breeze wonder please:
- does it use the Usb power or it'll start with a data-only cable?
- both gustards I tried did output lower volume than direct Usb (about 4-5db lower over both coax and aes). Does the breeze have the same issue?
- are all Breeze outputs simultaneously hot?
- are the Breeze clocks easy(er) to replace? And maybe you know if a pair of NDKs will bring any improvements.


----------



## conquerator2

robertsong said:


> *Haha, looks like doukmall just raised his price today...lol. He also added the upgraded transformer version.*
> 
> 
> Anybody try the DIYINHK board? Any sound impressions? Looks like it's spec'd well with NDK NZ2520SD's, ultra-low noise linear power regulator, DA101 SPDIF Transformer, etc.
> ...


 
 Link please?


----------



## robertsong

Hi. I included a link in the post. Do you not see it? Or did you mean a link for something else?
  
 It's called DIXO Pro3A


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Hi. I included a link in the post. Do you not see it? Or did you mean a link for something else?
> 
> It's called DIXO Pro3A


Maybe for D oukmall Breeze?


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Few Qs about the new Breeze wonder please:
> - does it use the Usb power or it'll start with a data-only cable?
> - both gustards I tried did output lower volume than direct Usb (about 4-5db lower over both coax and aes). Does the breeze have the same issue?
> - are all Breeze outputs simultaneously hot?
> - are the Breeze clocks easy(er) to replace? And maybe you know if a pair of NDKs will bring any improvements.


 

 Well old Prot - I detect a hint of sacrcasism in your post "new Breeze 'wonder'".  I'll try and answer your questions at the risk of further sarcasm.
  
 It works off AC only and will work with only a USB data line (no USB power signal needed)
  
 My Gustards and other DDC's all have the same output on coax and AES.  ON the Breeze I prefer coax over AES
  
 I believe that all outputs on the Breeze are active - but have not tested it
  
 The Breeze clocks are just as hard to replace.  I imagine Crystek CCHD957's or NDK SD's would improve the Breeze - but feel a Regen would be a bigger, easier and reversible improvement.  With the Regen (as it reclocks the USB data signal amoung other important things like minimizing 'packet noise' affecting the DDC clocks and USB data line backwave reflections modulating with the incoming data to cause increased jitter), I don't think upgrading the clocks is as big an issue and may only yield very incremental improvements if any at all.  What about the clock in the Regen - how about the better CCHD-957 TXCO vs the XCO in there?
  
 Now the question - which I will test once my second Regen is fully run in - does TWO Regens back to back add to the improvements over just one.  So far the Jiiterbug has been a small improvement used with the Regen.  Would further improvements to the LPS yield better sound?
  
 Lastly, would wiring a Regen directly to the DU-U8's USB inputs - with high quality Mundorf solid silver teflon wire yield further improvements.  Removing the cheap adapter from the connection.
  
 Lot's of avenues to explore for further gains.


----------



## lateboomer

I have got a Musical Fidelity V-Link usb converter. How does it fare compared with Breeze?


----------



## conquerator2

robertsong said:


> Hi. I included a link in the post. Do you not see it? Or did you mean a link for something else?
> 
> It's called DIXO Pro3A


 
 Yes for the doukmal Breeze please :} Can't find it.


----------



## robertsong

conquerator2 said:


> Yes for the doukmal Breeze please :} Can't find it.


 
 Sure...
  
 Breeze DU-U8 with upgraded Taema transformer. (I could of just imagined the price increase yesterday)
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/XMOS-USB-Digital-Interface-0-1PPM-DSD-Digital-32B-384khz-TAEMA-transformer-/272014777816?hash=item3f55581dd8
  
  
 Cheaper than Melodius MX-U8, and rb2013 prefers the sound of the Breeze.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melodious-MX-U8-32Bit-384KHz-DSD-XMOS-USB-Digital-Audio-Interface-110v-230v-b-/111646348657?hash=item19fea41571:g:cLgAAOSweW5VLMwJ


----------



## robertsong

rb2013,
  
 What are the 6 USB interfaces in your shootout? Did you make the thread yet?
  
  
 Guessing:
  
 Gustard U12
 Melodius MX-U8
 Breeze DU-U8 w/ Taema upgrade
 DIXO Pro3A
  
 ...plus???
  
 Did the Hydra-Z, Audio-gd DI-2014, or Yellowtec DUC2 Lite make it in?


----------



## robertsong

prot said:


> - both gustards I tried did output lower volume than direct Usb (about 4-5db lower over both coax and aes). Does the breeze have the same issue?


 
  
 +1
  
 I also noticed this with the U12. I wonder why this is?


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> I have got a Musical Fidelity V-Link usb converter. How does it fare compared with Breeze?


 
 I don't know as I don't have a MF to compare.  But my guess would be the Breeze is better.
  


robertsong said:


> Sure...
> 
> Breeze DU-U8 with upgraded Taema transformer. (I could of just imagined the price increase yesterday)
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the link.
  


robertsong said:


> rb2013,
> 
> What are the 6 USB interfaces in your shootout? Did you make the thread yet?
> 
> ...


 
 Yes the Hydra Z fed with a LPS.  I don't have the DIXO yet.  The Gustard and Melodious with upgraded caps.  Will write it up once I've had a chance to try the DIXO.  I won't be getting the DI-2014 or PUC2 lite or the Tanly (this looks like a great unit) at this point.  Maybe down the road to face off against my DIY USB bridge project.
  
 Just to bring it back to the beginning and the reason for the thread - stock U12 beat these other USB bridges I had: "3 different John Kenny's, M2Tech Highface and Evo (Evo fed by a LPS), Audiophilleo 2, Musiland 02 and Musiland USB 3.0 USD."
  
So as they say you've come a long way baby!  Exceeding my original expectations by miles.  My very nice analog gear is going up for sale - that's how good this is sounding.
  
 I'm entralled with the Regen/LPS right now and the synergies with the DU-U8 and my heavily modded DAC60.  The tone, clarity, detail, speed, bass are to die for. 
 But some thing else - just pure ease and musicality - so real.  Very happy camper!


----------



## robertsong

lateboomer said:


> I have got a Musical Fidelity V-Link usb converter. How does it fare compared with Breeze?


 
  
  
 Based on how it's spec'd and the fact that it's not bus power and uses a quality transformer, I would suspect the Breeze DU-U8 would easily beat out the V-link.
 Although much of this is subjective, and your own trial is the only way to know to sure.


----------



## lateboomer

Thank you guys, I certainly will try Breeze since the price is still reasonable. Currently I have 2 sources, one is MF CDT transport and another one is Bryston BDP-2 with upgraded spdif/AES audio card. I had tried out Regen powered by LPS with BDP-2 to output to BDA-2 dac, and music files in external 2TB Minipro HD also powered by LPS. But they lost out to AES output of BDP-2 with upgraded audio card.

I had not tried to connect Regen output to V-Link then to BDA-2 to avoid connection complexity. Maybe I will give it a try this weekend.

Anyway, rb2013, I can't find in your profile what source you are using. Since you are very happy camper right now I wonder what source you are using to connect to Breeze?


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> Well old Prot - I detect a hint of sacrcasism in your post "new Breeze 'wonder'".  I'll try and answer your questions at the risk of further sarcasm.
> 
> It works off AC only and will work with only a USB data line (no USB power signal needed)
> 
> ...




All genuine questions, that possible trace of sarcasm was just an old habit 
Good news about the Usb power and pretty bad but expected about the hard-to-replace clocks. 
Would still like to know if the Breeze shares the Gustard's low volume issue .. afaik, the other DDCs in this thread do not have that.


----------



## robertsong

lateboomer said:


> Currently I have 2 sources, one is MF CDT transport and another one is Bryston BDP-2 with upgraded spdif/AES audio card.


 
  
  
 Hmmm.... what are you using the V-link for?
 Why do you need it if you have spdif outs??


----------



## lateboomer

Currently the V-LINK is not connect to anything but as a paperweight. I am just thinking out loud if connect BDP-2 usb out to V-LINK, would it be better than using native spdif out of BDP-2? The theory is if minimize any computer noise from BDP-2 by connection usb out to Regen then only to V-LINK, which will reclock the usb data, willl it give better sound?
  
 I think the only way is to try it out. Forget to mention I also have got one Wyred spdif reclock.


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> Thank you guys, I certainly will try Breeze since the price is still reasonable. Currently I have 2 sources, one is MF CDT transport and another one is Bryston BDP-2 with upgraded spdif/AES audio card. I had tried out Regen powered by LPS with BDP-2 to output to BDA-2 dac, and music files in external 2TB Minipro HD also powered by LPS. But they lost out to AES output of BDP-2 with upgraded audio card.
> 
> I had not tried to connect Regen output to V-Link then to BDA-2 to avoid connection complexity. Maybe I will give it a try this weekend.
> 
> Anyway, rb2013, I can't find in your profile what source you are using. Since you are very happy camper right now I wonder what source you are using to connect to Breeze?


 

 Hi - it's a custom built music server - with fanless LPS, heavy noise filtering on the CPU fan and HDs, etc...will be moving to all SSDs at some point - although I recently read that the sound from SSD drive is inferior to spinners.  Anyway All WD Black 2TB drives.  I have two of these - not networked.  Using Foobar with SoX upsampler on Redbook and Jplay 6.2 (Extreme), ASIO SST 3033(2.6).  But some times use KS - a slightly different flavor.  Sometimes dither on sometimes dither off.  My PC server is running WIN 7 Pro - with all applications removed (dedicated music server) and is never connected to the internet.  Runs a min of just a handful of services and processes.


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> Would still like to know if the Breeze shares the Gustard's low volume issue .. afaik, the other DDCs in this thread do not have that.


 

 Well I haven't experienced that - but I can't run the USB straight into my DACs - they have no USB boards.
  
 All the DDCs I've tried are about the same in volume - and not something I worry about.   I have a nice Yamaha vintage tuner - it has lower vol (fixed outputs) and a Jolida JD-9 with a Ortofon 2M Black MM cart - it also has lower gain then my DAC fed by the DU-U8, Hydra Z, U12, etc...


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> Well I haven't experienced that - but I can't run the USB straight into my DACs - they have no USB boards.
> 
> All the DDCs I've tried are about the same in volume - and not something I worry about.   I have a nice Yamaha vintage tuner - it has lower vol (fixed outputs) and a Jolida JD-9 with a Ortofon 2M Black MM cart - it also has lower gain then my DAC fed by the DU-U8, Hydra Z, U12, etc...




The gustard output is definitely loud enough so not a big issue. But still, the device seems to be doing something funny/wrong .. and the 4-5db volume difference makes side by side comparisons very hard. 

And btw, about that hdd & ssd sounding different thing, you can find lots of reports both ways .. and I think they are all just a giant pile of... . I wont waste any time with that kind of stuff.


----------



## abartels

Bob,
  
 You really should try Server 2012. It's really a big difference with Windows 7. Lets say it's like listening to U12 or Hydra-Z, yes THAT much difference,,,,,
 Maybe Windows 10 equals Server 2012 (which I rather doubt) , but I know Windows 10 is VERY good sounding!
  
 It's for free if you have got W7, try it, you wont regret it!!!
  
 Cheers   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
  
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Bob,
> 
> You really should try Server 2012. It's really a big difference with Windows 7. Lets say it's like listening to U12 or Hydra-Z, yes THAT much difference,,,,,
> Maybe Windows 10 equals Server 2012 (which I rather doubt) , but I know Windows 10 is VERY good sounding!
> ...


 

 I have WIN 8.1 - it's sounds worse then my WIN 7 machine.  I see Srajan lead reviewer at 6Moons uses a WIN 7 machine and a MAC for his reviews.
  
 Not giving those b**tards in Redmond another nickel let alone $600 for Server 2012.  I heard my friends 2012 machine - it sounded the same as mine.  I think it's a system issue the better the DAC the less these OS differences make!  I will spend my money on great tubed DACs not some soon to be obsolete software.  I take all this WIN2012 stuff as hype.  I did hear a friend's Linux box - that did sound pretty darn great.  My next machine will be either a MAC or a Linux.  At least Apple and Linux supports USB 2.0 Audio (a 9 yr old standard)!
  
 But speaking of Srajan at 6Moons:
  
 Was reading his excellent review of the Curious USB cables last night - he had me rolling on the floor laughing!
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/curious/1.html


> *Out in the open is plain disinterest in connector porn.* Some audiophiles grow hard over big connectors; the bigger and heavier, the poppier their veins. Think machined aluminium sleeves with deep brand engraving to ensconce gold-plated USB plugs [$3'500 Kubala-Sosna Revelation at right]. It's no different than adolescent obsession with aftermarket rims for their rides. On that count, the Curious goes limpnik...


 


> I had two eval scenarios. My desktop runs an HP Z230 pro workstation on Win 7/64 into a pair of Swiss Eversound Essence active speakers. Their USB DAC and active linestage were penned by Gordon Rankin of Wavelength/AudioQuest fame whilst 4th-gen ICEpower handles power and a quality Alps the analog volume. The drivers in their aluminium cabs are custom 4.5" coaxials with soft-dome tweeters. To raise them to ear level, mine squat atop tempered glass shelves of jewel-case height. As a result, the virtual soundstage is a perfect overlay on the 30" ZDisplay monitor, not a low rider below it. A Gallo subwoofer augments the LF below 40Hz underneath the desk.


 


> Our main system is fronted by a fully loaded 5K iMac with the most current PureMusic and Audirvana software players handing over to a Fore Audio DAISy 1 DAC via a 3-metre run of KingRex's red double-header USB cable. Those would be my launch pads for interplanetary USB trips to the perhaps seventh moon.


 
 The guy sure knows how to write! 
  
 Anyway on to some interesting digital audio info:


> *It ain't digital.* Digital cables run analog voltages to _represent_ binary values. The rise and fall of what ideally are square waves, for infinite bandwidth and slew rate, become markers in time for exactly _when_ these values change. A physical analog is the CD. Its pits and lands represent the same values. Ideally the walls of the CD grooves are perfectly vertical. In practice, CD stamper and mould release conditions can render the physical markers more soft and vague than pristinely edgy. It's why special stamper protocols like XRCD can sound better even when the actual information encoded is the same as on ordinary pressings. Naturally the freeze frame which us technophobes just enjoyed—where a CD's pits and lands visualize the voltage states of digital cables—becomes blurry quickly. Just invoke reclockers, anti-jitter schemes and buffers. Their ilk would seem to render the entire issue mute. Engineers know and admit all of it. Yet if blessed with critical ears, they must also acknowledge that PCfi is far more finicky, about things that shouldn't matter, than we'd like. Embarking on this empirical path (that different USB cables sound different but I fancy none of them; why do they sound different; what design choices affect which performance aspects; how to optimize the lot for the sound I know must be achievable) led to Rob Woodland's cable. That's its other meaning. It took keen curiosity on the subject to tackle it in the first place. Curiosity may have killed the cat but the Curious usb and its creator survived. If obituaries would have to be written, the buzz suggested it'd be about competitors. Finally, this branding suggests a safe haven for future cable types that shouldn't matter, like Ethernet. It's anchor bay also to boxes like the Qualia Physic S922 sdr, Uptone Regen, Schiit Wyrd [PCB at right] and Wyred4Sound Remedy. All of them impact the digital interface, albeit in ways not widely grasped yet. Which doesn't prevent their efficacy, only rational explanations. The real question is far more pragmatic. Will you lend an ear _now_ and benefit; or insist on fence sitting until all these pesky mysteries are solved? Is your personal curious awake or a'snooze?


 
 So a few other USB gizmos to add to the mix: Qualia Physic S922 sdr and the Remedy.


----------



## rb2013

This Linux distro has my eye:
  
 http://www.ap-linux.com/download/
  


> About Audiophile Linux  Audiophile Linux is the operating system optimized for high quality digital audio reproduction. Created by audiophiles for people who share the same dream. To have their system a bit more better. AP-Linux is easily installed, user friendly, and absolutely free. Install it like any other GNU/Linux distribution and enjoy the music playback. Audiophile Linux comes with everything you need for playing your audio and video files.
> Audiophile Linux features:
> System and memory optimized for quality audio
> Custom Real-Time kernel
> ...


 


> Having in mind the musical reality and it’s euphonic playback, we decided to publish our experiences with USB D/A converters. Connected with a PC, USB DAC becomes an external sound card. Regardless of it’s price, performance of an USB D/A converter shall largely depend on computer hardware/software combination. We have tried several USB D/A converters with our music computer based on Intel hardware. The Real Stream Systems Audio PC with a new, embeded Audiophile Linux OS will be available soon. It enables audio playback of all PCM and DSD files and can be controlled by mouse or via smart phone or tablet PC. So our primary interest were the USB converters capable of both PCM and DSD conversion.


----------



## robertsong

abartels said:


> Bob,
> 
> You really should try Server 2012. It's really a big difference with Windows 7. Lets say it's like listening to U12 or Hydra-Z, yes THAT much difference,,,,,
> Maybe Windows 10 equals Server 2012 (which I rather doubt) , but I know Windows 10 is VERY good sounding!
> ...


 
  
  
  
 Yup, I totally agree with Server 2012 R2. I'm using it with Audio Optimizer, Fidelizer Pro, and of course Jplay. The difference of the combo over 8.1 is HUGE. I haven't tried Windows 10 yet because I just don't care.


----------



## robertsong

prot said:


> The gustard output is definitely loud enough so not a big issue. But still, the device seems to be doing something funny/wrong .. and the 4-5db volume difference makes side by side comparisons very hard.
> 
> And btw, about that hdd & ssd sounding different thing, you can find lots of reports both ways .. and I think they are all just a giant pile of...
> 
> ...


 
  
 I agree with you on the U12, but I'm very pleased with the sound so I'm not overly concerned with it. I would still like to know why this is though. Which driver version are you using?
  
  
 About the SSD vs. HD I totally disagree with reports being "both ways". From what I've read on internet it's unanimously in favor of SSD. But more importantly I have tried it myself and there is no question a non-mechanical drive is better.


----------



## Triplefun

Thanks for the insight - I hadn't realised W10 had audio improvements over W8 (and W7).
  
 See http://pcaudiolabs.com/windows-10-for-pro-audio/
*Conclusion*
 Windows 10 is proving to be a solid contender for the next best OS for digital creativity.  With reduced latency on the WDM audio engine, combined with impressive benchmarks and broad compatibility even in technical preview, the OS looks to be one of the best yet.  PCAudioLabs plans to support Windows 10 on all our pro audio computer systems.
  
 Also http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/what-will-windows-10-mean-for-musicians-629392
 Windows 10's audio stack improvements allow for much reduced latencies for non-pro audio applications. Specifically, audio latency is significantly reduced when sharing audio devices with other apps.
 "Pro audio applications, which already access audio devices in exclusive mode (using ASIO, WDM-WaveRT or Wasapi- exclusive), don't benefit from the new reduction in latency in Windows 10. They do, however benefit from another improvement in Windows 10, which adds a 'special mode' for low-latency audio, where the audio streaming is not disturbed by other tasks.
 "Because of these improvements, Windows 10 will bring musicians a smoother experience when playing and recording, with less risk of audio glitches."
  
 I will need to explore this further ....


----------



## rb2013

triplefun said:


> Thanks for the insight - I hadn't realised W10 had audio improvements over W8 (and W7).
> 
> See http://pcaudiolabs.com/windows-10-for-pro-audio/
> *Conclusion*
> ...


 

 That is for ProAudio - and means nothing for High Quality PCfi.  The low latency is needed for system responsiveness when you using multiple plug-ins multiple tracks (up to 32) simultaneously.
  
 Low latency means little to High End audio for home use - unless a very slight lag in changing tracks is an annoyance.
  
 Now this does mean A LOT to high end PC audio:
 http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/forum/insider_wintp-insider_devices/windows-support-for-usb-audio-20/0d633b9f-3193-4c63-8654-fb10b3614a04?auth=1


> Windows support for USB Audio 2.0?
> 
> 
> MatiasReccius started on October 23, 2014
> ...


 
  
 Really pathetic Microsoft
  


> Maurits [MSFT] replied on October 24, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Yoga

I'm a bit late to the party here and don't have time to read all 186 pages (I did try but it's so hard to find actual reviews in it!).
  
 Is this Gustard U12 as good as people say, the one to buy, or is the MX-U8 even better?
  
 Also considering the PUC2!


----------



## rb2013

yoga said:


> I'm a bit late to the party here and don't have time to read all 186 pages (I did try but it's so hard to find actual reviews in it!).
> 
> Is this Gustard U12 as good as people say, the one to buy, or is the MX-U8 even better?
> 
> Also considering the PUC2!


 

 I have yet to hear the PUC2 Lite - but the reviews are excellent.  I would also rank at the top the Hydra Z and the Breeze Audio DU-U8.
  
 http://www.stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/
  
 The Gustard U12 (I had three) even with Nichicon HW or Fine Gold PS caps ranked near the bottom (ahead of the iDAC2 as USB bridge).  It is not bad and beat the list I posted at the beginning of the thread - like the M2Tech EVO fed by a LPS.  But in comparison to the others I tried it sounds veiled and lacking in dynamics.  YMMV.
  
 I have had about a dozen USB bridges so far in my systems. With and w/o the Regen and Jitterbug.
  
 This one will be next - DIYinHK DXIO Pro3A
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/97-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html


----------



## Yoga

rb2013 said:


> I have yet to hear the PUC2 Lite - but the reviews are excellent.  I would also rank at the top the Hydra Z and the Breeze Audio DU-U8.
> 
> http://www.stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks, very helpful.
  
 I read somewhere that a Berkley Alpha USB owner preferred the PUC2 Lite, which is rather incredible. I'll give one a pop.


----------



## prot

yoga said:


> Thanks, very helpful.
> 
> I read somewhere that a Berkley Alpha USB owner preferred the PUC2 Lite, which is rather incredible. I'll give one a pop.




That's quite a prop for the puc2, do you jave a link? Now I regret not snapping one of those during the ebay sale a few weeks ago

rb2013 
The dxio thingie looks good .. only the clock(s?) are pretty basic.


----------



## Yoga

prot said:


> That's quite a prop for the puc2, do you jave a link? Now I regret not snapping one of those during the ebay sale a few weeks ago
> 
> @rb2013
> The dxio thingie looks good .. only the clock(s?) are pretty basic.


 

 Sure: https://www.thomann.de/gb/yellowtec_puc2_lite.htm


----------



## prot

yoga said:


> Sure: https://www.thomann.de/gb/yellowtec_puc2_lite.htm




Sry, I meant a link to that puc-better-than-berkeley comment you mentioned. 
 And btw, they were on sale on ebay for €199


----------



## Yoga

prot said:


> Sry, I meant a link to that puc-better-than-berkeley comment you mentioned.
> And btw, they were on sale on ebay for €199


 
  
 Bargain.
  
 No idea. I've read so much in the last week it would be impossible to find!


----------



## Yoga

prot said:


> Sry, I meant a link to that puc-better-than-berkeley comment you mentioned.
> And btw, they were on sale on ebay for €199


 
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/berkeley-alpha-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-vs-bel-canto-ulink-vs-audiophilleo-random-musings-20307/index4.html#post477285


----------



## robertsong

Eh, I wouldn't put too much credibility into some random person's opinion on the internet. Everything is subjective. Posts like that are useless for me. It does sound like the PUC2 lite is worth checking out though from several different sources.


----------



## rb2013

yoga said:


> Thanks, very helpful.
> 
> I read somewhere that a Berkley Alpha USB owner preferred the PUC2 Lite, which is rather incredible. I'll give one a pop.



Interesting...
 


prot said:


> That's quite a prop for the puc2, do you jave a link? Now I regret not snapping one of those during the ebay sale a few weeks ago
> 
> @rb2013
> The dxio thingie looks good .. only the clock(s?) are pretty basic.



No they're very nice NDK SD low phase noise clocks (long running debate here on the NDK SD vs Crystek CCH-957).  Alex likes the NDK's (see his excellent Melodious mod thread), I like the CCHD-957s.  But from what I've researched both are substanially lower in phase noise then the Chinese OEM JYEC TXCO's found in these other units.  The Hydra Z, Berkerly Alpha and Tanly all use the CCHD-957's.

 
 


yoga said:


> Sure: https://www.thomann.de/gb/yellowtec_puc2_lite.htm



Nice!  If I see one on the used market I will give it a try.  That StereoTimes review had me curious as well.  The big issue is the AES only output.  One of my DACs likes S/PDIF coax better.  $500 and one type of output - AES?  The $160 DXIO Pro3a is S/PDIF coax only.  The other thing mentioned in the StereoTimes review is the drivers are programmed on chip.  I guess no improved drivers - unless it's flashed into memory. The Thesycon drivers are constantly being improved.  I looked at the board - average XO clocks.  Nothing really special stood out:


----------



## rb2013

For those new to the thread -some DDC porn:
  
 Berkeley Alpha :

 Hydra Z:


 Tanly:


 Breeze Audio DU-U8:

 Melodious MX-U8 (stock caps):

  
 Gustard U12 (upgraded caps):

 DXIO Pro3a

  
 Hope you enjoyed the tour


----------



## Anachronaut

rb2013 said:


> I have yet to hear the PUC2 Lite - but the reviews are excellent.  I would also rank at the top the Hydra Z and the Breeze Audio DU-U8.
> 
> http://www.stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/
> 
> ...


 
  
 New here, I joined Head-fi.org just because this seems to be the best forum on the internet on the subject of affordable USB to S/PDIF interfaces.
  
  
*Question:* I may like to try the Breeze Audio DU-U8, which is apparently this one with an upgraded transformer
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/XMOS-USB-Digital-Interface-0-1PPM-DSD-Digital-32B-384khz-TAEMA-transformer-/272014777816?hash=item3f55581dd8&rmvSB=true
  
 Does the unit have a coaxial S/PDIF output? It seems from your comments that it does, but looking at the photos and reading the description on Ebay it is not specifically listed as an output. It seems that it is there in the photo, however, outside of the enclosing line drawn on the back labeled "outputs."
  
  
_*Comment:*_ You list the DIYinHK DXIO Pro3A as your next candidate to try. I also think this one looks promising, however, I may be interested in a different version.
  
 You list this version:
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/97-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html
  
 which has a manual power source switch. I have certainly had some troubles with audio equipment in the (not so recent) past with cheap switches, and the switch on this unit does not look to be high quality at first glance. So my thought was that perhaps this version
  
http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/54-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wauto-power-switch.html
  
 with the auto power switch might be the more reliable of the two in terms of sound quality. The two versions look to be identical otherwise (on the inside).


----------



## seeteeyou

Let's keep the porn coming (oops) and here we go:
  




  
 http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=180&t=3814233&p=131#56454398
  
 Supposedly we should be able to apply that mod to anything that requires 5V via DC power input. 4 sets of Sanyo Eneloop XX NiMH AA batteries were were delivering approximately 5V plus two dozens of supercapacitors (also found inside Chord Hugo TT) for tweaking the SQ.
  
 10 bucks or so a piece of PowerStor PHB-5R0V505-R
  
 https://octopart.com/phb-5r0v505-r-cooper+bussmann-20698242
  
 Brand new ones cost only 28 RMB each when we order them from China
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=40880039805
  
 18 RMB for pulled and tested ones
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=39537691794
  
 Also good for Elfidelity with 5V DC input, stuff like OCXO clock from PPA Studio might work with that as well
  
 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=40230386675
 http://ppaproduct.blogspot.com/2014/02/clock-upgrade-module-for-main-board.html
  
  
 Similarly, this is how we could surpass the SQ of Chord Hugo TT with a poor man's Hugo on steroids (i.e. sacrificing the optical input while voiding the warranty)
  









 
  
 Grab another two dozens of PowerStor PHB-5R0V505-R and then add 16 pieces of Rubycon 16ZLH4700MEFC16X25
  
 https://octopart.com/16zlh4700mefc16x25-rubycon-19941803
  
 Just remember to add protection circuits as shown above, or else that could very well be a ticking time bomb of some sort. LOL


----------



## Yoga

Thanks for the internal porn 
  
 I took the PUC2 / Berkley comment with a pinch of salt also, by the way. And agreed, AES only is a pain for me too. There is a simple Neutrik AES to SPDIF converter though.
  
 https://www.studiospares.com/Cables-Leads/Adaptors/Neutrik-AESEBU--BNC-SPDIF-Impedance-Converter_578300.htm
  
 Hydra Z looks like a safe choice.


----------



## rb2013

anachronaut said:


> New here, I joined Head-fi.org just because this seems to be the best forum on the internet on the subject of affordable USB to S/PDIF interfaces.
> 
> 
> *Question:* I may like to try the Breeze Audio DU-U8, which is apparently this one with an upgraded transformer
> ...


 

 Welcome to this popular thread.  Yes - I prefer the one without the switch - good call!
  
 The Breeze Audio most definitely has S/PDIF coax - I have two running on that connection.  The SQ is jaw dropping good!  Last night another 2 hours of Van Morrison - a few of my favorites (his catalogue is huge), albums I have listened to 100's of times over the past few decades.  The sound projection of his presence in the room - never more spooky real.  The DU-U8 combines the smoothness of the best DDC's I've heard with the most transparency and incisiveness heard yet.  Coupled with another half octave of bass.  At this point really hard to get excited about any other DDC, this could be a match made in heaven.  And now to mod and tweek this little unit.  Better clocks for one.
  
 In the CA article referenced above, where the reviewer preferred the PUC2 lite over the BADA USB - and actually preferred the Audiophilleo 2 over the Berkeley USB (which I find hard ot believe owning a AP2 with LPS power), he says they all sound about the same.  I would say in my two systems that is definitely NOT the case.  Between some the differences are subtile - but for the best - the differences are as great a DAC change.  The fact he thought the PUC2 better is no surprise.  I liked the M2Tech EVO fed by a Acopian yellow box LPS better then the AP2 fed by a LPS or battery.  I know the CA 15 USB shootout had the AP1/battery ahead of the EVO + EVo supply.   I tried the EVO supply and much preferred the low noise Acopian LPS with the EVO (a significant improvement).
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/


----------



## rb2013

seeteeyou said:


> Let's keep the porn coming (oops) and here we go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 NICE!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Me and Alex looked at building a Audioyte ZPM type ultra-capacitor PS for our Hydra Z's.  The UC's are cheap enough - but according to Alex building the charging circuit was too difficult.  I settled on powering the Z with a TeraDak R-core SB30W LPS run from a PS filter (common mode and differential mode).
  
 Beautiful work!  Thanks for all the links - what this thread is all about.  I will have some fun there.  So for those new to this thread these USB Bridges come in three verities - PC USB powered, PC USB/separate 5VDC powered (choice), AC powered.  None I tested were straight USB powered - the Hydra Z, and the DIXO are or have the advantage of a 5VDC power port.  So can be used with a separate PS - usually included with a crappy SMPS wall wart - be can be powered by a much better separate linear power supply like the TeraDak or a Li Ion battery pack.
  
 For the AC powered units I highly recommend some kind of AC PS filtering - I've had good success with these -running separate ones for the DDC and DAC.
 http://artproaudio.com/art_products/power_solutions/power_distribution_systems/product/pb4x4_pro/


> By using both Common Mode and Differential Mode topologies in series for the filter design we are able to block virtually all of the unwanted noise that is between the AC line and ground, and also the two sides of the AC line. This has the additional benefit of reducing ground loop problems in your system. High frequency noise currents in particular are highly attenuated in both directions so that any line noise that could be generated by one of your components is not allowed to get back into your main A.C. wiring so if you use a number of PRO SERIES Power Conditioners in your setup, you can distribute and isolate the noisy components from the sensitive components in your system. Additionally, any signals above 10kHz are filtered from the line with over 40dB of attenuation above 100kHz and beyond.


 
 Of course just as in the LPS's much more expensive and I'm sure better units are available like the Audience Adept Teflon series:
 http://audience-av.com/conditioners/index.html
  
 ZPM nudie:


----------



## conquerator2

I'll be upgrading from the U12 to the DX-U8!
 What improvements should I expect? Assuming both units running stock.
 Thank you! :3


----------



## rb2013

yoga said:


> Thanks for the internal porn
> 
> I took the PUC2 / Berkley comment with a pinch of salt also, by the way. And agreed, AES only is a pain for me too. There is a simple Neutrik AES to SPDIF converter though.
> 
> ...


 

 I agree - I used the Canare AES to BNC with BNC annenuator (I posted about this about 30 pages ago), the a BNC to S/PDIF adapter.  If you a AES to S/PDIF adapter the signal strength should be attenuated or you could damage the DAC's receiver with too much signal:
  
 I actually like the Hydra Z with 10db of attn AES>Canare>10db Attenuator>BNCtoS/PDIF adapter, better then going straight from the Z's S/PDIF.  It was a slight improvement - say 1-2% - maybe not worth the cost.  On the DU-U8 I preferred the straight S/PDIF coax.  With the PUC2 you have no choice.
  
 http://www.sonicsense.com/resourcecenter/reviews/reviews-and-tutorials/how-to-convert-between-spdif-and-aes-digital-audio
 http://www.canare.com/UploadedDocuments/110Ω-75Ω%20Digital%20Audio%20Impedance%20Transformers.pdf
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/help-yellowtec-puc-19030/


----------



## PWGuy

Is the Talema transformer a drop-in for the Chinese DACs and amps as well? Was wondering specifically for the Gustard X12 and H10 as they seem to use similar "looking" transformers..


----------



## rb2013

pwguy said:


> Is the Talema transformer a drop-in for the Chinese DACs and amps as well? Was wondering specifically for the Gustard X12 and H10 as they seem to use similar "looking" transformers..


 

 Well I know for sure not on the U12 different pin configuration.


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> I'll be upgrading from the U12 to the DX-U8!
> What improvements should I expect? Assuming both units running stock.
> Thank you! :3


 
 Improvements on every level.  Way more incisive - like 7 veils have been lifted (thought I'd improvise on that old audio cliche). The biggest another full octave of bass, much greater transparency and detail, richer more natural tonal signature.  YMMV.  Get the Talema version - it's slightly better


----------



## rb2013

yoga said:


> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/berkeley-alpha-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-vs-bel-canto-ulink-vs-audiophilleo-random-musings-20307/index4.html#post477285


 

 That CA review also points out to an apparent faulty driver firmware loaded - then an alternative ASIO driver provided.  Any idea on it's functionality - like balance or vol control?
 A brand new one just sold this morning for $250 here in the US.  I'm wondering with all the discounting going on if a PUC3 lite is on the horizon, maybe one with more choice of connections or better clocks.


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> Improvements on every level.  Way more incisive - like 7 veils have been lifted (thought I'd improvise on that old audio cliche). The biggest another full octave of bass, much greater transparency and detail, richer more natural tonal signature.  YMMV.  Get the Talema version - it's slightly better




That does sound good 
I did opt for the Talema version 
Thank you!


----------



## conquerator2

Breeze Talema orderee.
I'll hope for the best


----------



## prot

conquerator2 said:


> Breeze Talema orderee.
> I'll hope for the best



Good luck and please post some impressions. Also curious if the dxu8 is a big enough improvement on u12


----------



## conquerator2

prot said:


> Good luck and please post some impressions. Also curious if the dxu8 is a big enough improvement on u12




Certainly will. I am very curios...


----------



## lateboomer

Is it typo or something else, is Breeze DU-U8 or DX-U8? Seller doukmall mentions the transformer is TAEMA but thread here says it is Talema. Which one is correct?


----------



## conquerator2

Taema is a typo. Theres only one Breeze U8 regardless, just a transformer option


----------



## abartels

It's Talema, and that's what your seller tried to communicate to you,,,, taema is not a brandname.


----------



## robertsong

lateboomer said:


> Is it typo or something else, is Breeze DU-U8 or DX-U8? Seller doukmall mentions the transformer is TAEMA but thread here says it is Talema. Which one is correct?


 
  
 There is no DX-U8.
 There is the Breeze DU-U8 and Melodius MX-U8.
 "U8" is the newer generation XMOS chip used in these.


----------



## abartels

robertsong said:


> There is no DX-U8.
> There is the Breeze DU-U8 and Melodius MX-U8.
> "U8" is the newer generation XMOS chip used in these.


 
  
 U8 is the 8-Core Xmos chip. Xmos also has U10, U12 and U16, so, 10-Core, 12-Core and 16-Core. Wonder when one of those higher-end processors will be used in a DDC


----------



## Spiral Out

Just wanted to give my quick impressions on the Gustard U12. I received mine earlier this week and have run it in for about 100 hours. Right out of the box it was an improvement over the direct usb connection to my Bifrost. The biggest and most noticeable differences out of the box was the smoothness of the midrange and separation of instruments in the soundfield. I found bass to be lacking significantly prior to burn in though, severely lacking in impact and volume. The highs pre burn in was also a bit rough and splashy as well. After running a signal through it for 100 hours both the bass and highs have improved immensely. I amazed by the analog like sound I'm hearing. It's a giant leap from the usb direct connection to my Bifrost.


----------



## abartels

spiral out said:


> Just wanted to give my quick impressions on the Gustard U12. I received mine earlier this week and have run it in for about 100 hours. Right out of the box it was an improvement over the direct usb connection to my Bifrost. The biggest and most noticeable differences out of the box was the smoothness of the midrange and separation of instruments in the soundfield. I found bass to be lacking significantly prior to burn in though, severely lacking in impact and volume. The highs pre burn in was also a bit rough and splashy as well. After running a signal through it for 100 hours both the bass and highs have improved immensely. I amazed by the analog like sound I'm hearing. It's a giant leap from the usb direct connection to my Bifrost.


 
  
 Welcome to the club Spiral Out 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 There's a lot more to explore


----------



## abartels

Hello Guys,
  
 I know it's off-topic, but I think it's nice to read for all of us, found this article on the Computeraudiophile.com forum.
 Original article written by Berry Diament on Naim forum.
 ( http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/jlp-music-player-19302/#post295651 )
  
 Quote:


"I've always felt that what is "good", "better" or "best" depends entirely on exactly what one seeks.
The goal might truth to the source or it might be what someone may just like. Personally, I think both are equally valid as I'd never argue with whatever brings anyone their listening pleasure.

But if the goal is truth to the source, my experience has been that well ripped files (in raw PCM format such as .aif or .wav) invariably are truer to the CD master than any CD pressing played back via any transport.

Ever since I created my first CD master, early in 1983, and heard the results that came back from the replication facility, I realized that CDs made at different plants (and often on different lines at the same plant) all sound different from each other and *none* sounds indistinguishable from the master used to make it. The differences, in my experience, range from subtle to not-at-all subtle, with focus and fine detail being lost to varying degrees.

I've always found a slow-burned CD-R to get closer to , if still not indistinguishable from, the CD master. But when any decent pressing is properly extracted to hard drive (in raw PCM format such as .aif or .wav), I've found the differences go away. This is what has me so excited about playback from the computer: for the very first time in my experience, the listener can get the sound of the master, unaltered.

I had a related experience not too long ago when comparing an SHM pressing with its plain vanilla counterpart, both created from the same CD master. At first, when listening via my transport, I was certain I was hearing two different masterings, so different did the drums, cymbals and piano sound. I would have bet money I was hearing two different EQs created by two different engineers. I thought it was a trick to make SHM, which I took to be just another way of pressing a CD, sound better than it really was. Much to my surprise, when I extracted both the SHM and CD versions to computer hard drive and played them from there, they were indistinguishable. 

What accounts for the differences? I'm can only speculate. Playback from the disc involves several processes. The player must track the spiral of pits, maintain focus on the laser, read the pits, decode the 8:14 modulation by which the binary data is encoded to create the nine different length pits on a CD, perform any necessary error correction, and convert the binary stream to analog audio, all in real time. While playback from hard drive in a computer certainly involves some processes too, it seems to me there is less to do overall and my experience has been when there is less to do, better results are achieved. Again, just speculation on my part. (I'm always open to learning something new.) What I do know is that I've never heard CD playback from any transport/DAC combination, regardless of price that sounds indistinguishable from listening to the CD master, while playback from the computer routinely does sound indistinguishable from the master.

So again, if someone feels playback from the CD is "better", I wouldn't argue. They may simply like the resulting sound. But my ears tell me it doesn't sound the same as the master sent to the replication facility by the mastering house. Me? I'd rather hear the sound of the master. 
Just my perspective, of course.

Best regards,
Barry"
  
This implies what most of us know


----------



## Spiral Out

abartels said:


> Welcome to the club Spiral Out
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thank You! I think my bank account has had enough of my exploring. Time to take a break before I start chasing my tail.


----------



## abartels

spiral out said:


> Thank You! I think my bank account has had enough of my exploring. Time to take a break before I start chasing my tail.


 
  
 You're welcome! That experience you discribed, hmm, is it for audioholics only? Hahaha, "sometimes" you have to make choices 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The more audioholic you are, the simpler are the choices you have to make, no food, no holidays, just,,,,,,


----------



## Spiral Out

abartels said:


> You're welcome! That experience you discribed, hmm, is it for audioholics only? Hahaha, "sometimes" you have to make choices
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hahaha!! It's a bit like having a substance abuse problem, gotta keep chasing the dragon. But at least with audio you have something to show for the money you spent and then there's the whole killing yourself slowly thing...


----------



## abartels

spiral out said:


> Hahaha!! It's a bit like having a substance abuse problem, gotta keep chasing the dragon. But at least with audio you have something to show for the money you spent and then there's the whole killing yourself slowly thing...


 
  
 Just like last night, listening to my new setup, with a glass of wine near to me, woke up in the morning on the couch, hahahahaha, killing me softly


----------



## rb2013

spiral out said:


> Just wanted to give my quick impressions on the Gustard U12. I received mine earlier this week and have run it in for about 100 hours. Right out of the box it was an improvement over the direct usb connection to my Bifrost. The biggest and most noticeable differences out of the box was the smoothness of the midrange and separation of instruments in the soundfield. I found bass to be lacking significantly prior to burn in though, severely lacking in impact and volume. The highs pre burn in was also a bit rough and splashy as well. After running a signal through it for 100 hours both the bass and highs have improved immensely. I amazed by the analog like sound I'm hearing. It's a giant leap from the usb direct connection to my Bifrost.


Nice take this very good USB Bridge. Did you have the Gen2 in the Bifrost.

Enjoy!


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hello Guys,
> 
> I know it's off-topic, but I think it's nice to read for all of us, found this article on the Computeraudiophile.com forum.
> Original article written by Berry Diament on Naim forum.
> ...


Great article. I would take the burning process one step further. By using a program like EAC (Exact Audio Copy), you make as near as possible, abit for bit exact iso image. This program will read each bit on a cd multiple times until it gets an exact match three times in a row before recoding it. Then can compare to an online image using 'Accurip'. This program is very sophisticated. It's virtually impossible for a CD player to read each bit as accurately in real time, with only one pass per bit, then relying on 'error correction' to make an educated guess at what each bit should have been. These 'error correction' schemes are notorious for causing jitter. All my CDs are archived with this proram set to Safe mode, no compression, record and verify, straight WAV file. The program has a neat id tagging feature as well. Then the CD goes into store ( maybe something better may come along down the road). Burning programs like itunes are terrible at making good burns.

In addition, the very servo motor laser tracking mechanisms in CD transports are notorious for creating much high frequency noise that then pollutes the AC lines ( think of a mini Skill Ciruclar saw turning on and off, dozens of times every second).


----------



## Spiral Out

rb2013 said:


> Nice take this very good USB Bridge. Did you have the Gen2 in the Bifrost.
> 
> Enjoy!


 
 Yup, it's Gen 2. I'm surprised it makes such a large difference as the Gen 2 is supposed to be as good as the coax input according to Schiit. I am using a laptop for audio so maybe it's USB power is particularly bad.  I'm also using a Wyrd and Jitterbug in addition to the U12 as it still receives power from the USB input. I tried the U12 without the Wyrd and I did notice a difference in sound quality. Much cleaner and less grainy with the Wyrd/Jitterbug in the signal path.


----------



## conquerator2

In my case, with an isolator in place, the Wyrd affected my audio chain negatively. It smoothed things over and added some bass bloat.
 This suggests to me that my USB power is clear and that there was just a ground loop happening, which the isolator lifted.
 So, now rocking to the U12, I am looking forward to what a fresh Breeze brings to the mix.
 HEK - SA31SE - Pro Basic II - U12 - PC.
 I do hope the Bereze improves things further


----------



## rb2013

spiral out said:


> Yup, it's Gen 2. I'm surprised it makes such a large difference as the Gen 2 is supposed to be as good as the coax input according to Schiit. I am using a laptop for audio so maybe it's USB power is particularly bad.  I'm also using a Wyrd and Jitterbug in addition to the U12 as it still receives power from the USB input. I tried the U12 without the Wyrd and I did notice a difference in sound quality. Much cleaner and less grainy with the Wyrd/Jitterbug in the signal path.


 
 I have to try a Wryd - in one system a LPS fed Regen helped a lot -in another the same slightly negative.  So much is system dependent.  I have JB's in both and like them - positive effects in both.
  


conquerator2 said:


> In my case, with an isolator in place, the Wyrd affected my audio chain negatively. It smoothed things over and added some bass bloat.
> This suggests to me that my USB power is clear and that there was just a ground loop happening, which the isolator lifted.
> So, now rocking to the U12, I am looking forward to what a fresh Breeze brings to the mix.
> HEK - SA31SE - Pro Basic II - U12 - PC.
> I do hope the Bereze improves things further


 
 Nice thing on the Breeze  - no relay like the U12 - so no need for USB power at all.  Isolator or split cable (or USB cable with power disconnect) all work.


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> I have to try a Wryd - in one system a LPS fed Regen helped a lot -in another the same slightly negative.  So much is system dependent.  I have JB's in both and like them - positive effects in both.
> 
> Nice thing on the Breeze  - no relay like the U12 - so no need for USB power at all.  Isolator or split cable *(or USB cable with power disconnect) *all work.


 
 Neat. Not something I need with the isolator though 
 Do we know of any that can be purchased separately? I know there are a few that come with certain products, like the Teradak or the USB soubdcards....
 Thx!


----------



## rb2013

Absolutely loving the sound for the Breeze DU-U8.  Now looking to see if it can be improved with a few new things.
  
 First ordered a new Power Chord for the DU-U8:
Cerious Technologies Graphene Extreme Black


> The Graphene Extreme takes the concepts of the Nano to whole other levels. While other "wire" companies utilize bigger gauge conductors as the line increases in price to justify the increased cost, Cerious Technologies works at the molecular level getting the conductor closer to an ideal conductor.
> Each Graphene Extreme conductor employs five elements –
> • Copper
> • Silver
> ...


 
  
 Second gizmo a Wryed For Sound Remedy.  This is a Regen for the S/PDIF coax.  One advantage of S/PDIF is it can provide the clock signal.  The Remedy reclocks the S/PDIF coax with a femto clock Crystek CCHD-957 that the DAC then slaves to. Also has it's power completely separate from the DAC or DDC - in my case it would be powered with use the linear power supply TeraDak R-Core SB30W run at 9VDC.
  
 I will try it connected to the DU-U8 S/PDIF coax with one of these. Then at the back of the DAC to see which sounds best.

  
  
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/wyred/1.html
  
 So here is the chain:  PC (LPS)>JitterBug USB>Silnote Poseidon USB (or Forza Split)>Regen (TeraDak LPS)>DU-U8( Cerious PC/ PB4x4Pro PS filtering)>Audio Sens Silver Ref 1.5M SPDIF coax cable>Wryed Remedy(TeraDak LPS)>Viablue>Modded DAC60 (or APL NWOjr).


----------



## Maxx134

rb2013 said:


> Nice thing on the Breeze - no relay like the U12 - so no need for USB power at all. Isolator or split cable (or USB cable *with power disconnect*) all work.



This is good news as I do not like the thought of the dirty power within same run of usb cable..


----------



## rb2013

maxx134 said:


> This is good news as I do not like the thought of the dirty power within same run of usb cable..


 

 Agreed!


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Neat. Not something I need with the isolator though
> Do we know of any that can be purchased separately? I know there are a few that come with certain products, like the Teradak or the USB soubdcards....
> Thx!


 

 This was from the Regen thread - a very high quality isolator at the PC USB socket.
  


> I have ordered both adapters from Elijah Audio for USD155 including freight. USD75 for the USB A male to A female with 5v block (used at computer) and USD80 for USB A male to B male (no blocks) with Mundorf silver/gold wires and silk sleeves and regular USB plugs. I do not know which gauge he uses...but if you are interested you can e-mail Michael at michael@elijahaudio.com and ask him.


----------



## rb2013

OK the Wyred for Sound Remedy came in today - with the enclosed SMPS - a modest improvement on the scale of a Jitterbug.
  
 Now using a LPS TeraDak R-Core DC-30W set to 9 VDC into the Remedy - a whole other ball game!  Wow - bigger or at least the same improvement as the Regen/LPS.
  
 Right now the ViaBlue Male to Male RCA connector has not come in so just using a cheapo Best Buy AR digital cable between the Remedy and the modded DAC60.
  
 The heavily modded tubed DAC60 already had excellent tone and musical ease.  That got even smoother - but with even crisper dynamics and greater detail.  Truly organic and holographic instrument presentation.  Really nice.
  
 I bought the Remedy on Audiogon for $325 - like new (so maybe the Remedy's femto, ultra low phase noise Crystek CCHD-957 clocks needs some more run time).  New they're $399.
  
 Not cheap - but so far - for me worth the cost.  Tomorrow I'll try it on the big system.
  
 Just getting better and better.  Putting my prized modded Jolida JD-9 (Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil caps and Tele 12AX7 smoothplates)  phono pre up for sale - no longer need my analog system.


----------



## robertsong

Anybody have the Breeze driver? My DU-U8 arrived today.
  
 Ok, nevermind. The 2.26 driver that was posted earlier worked after several installation attempts. Not sure what the initial problem was (as usual), but the Breeze DU-U8 is sounding awesome right away!
  
 DRIVER:   https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=D0AB7686EA250D95&resid=D0AB7686EA250D95%214056&authkey=AKASKTkcgS8A2xE
  
 This is what the driver appears as with Kernel Streaming in JRMC, JPLAY, Foobar, etc.... 
  
 "xCORE USB Audio 2.0"


----------



## Voltot

rb2013
 How much better Hydra Z then DU-U8?


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Anybody have the Breeze driver? My DU-U8 arrived today.
> 
> Ok, nevermind. The 2.26 driver that was posted earlier worked after several installation attempts. Not sure what the initial problem was (as usual), but the Breeze DU-U8 is sounding awesome right away!
> 
> ...


The Breeze will work with any of the drivers. It doesn't require a handshake driver like the Melodius or Gustard.

Great to hear you like the sound! Had a great evening with some dedicated audio guys last night. On a very, very nice system we spent hours comparing a DU-U8 and a $1500 Off Ramp 5 with the custom power supply. I'll post a longer description of the results in another post but just to say - the DU-U8 was very competitive.




voltot said:


> rb2013
> How much better Hydra Z then DU-U8?


For me I prefered the DU-U8 over the Hydra Z with LPS. I'll post more about this in my 6 USB Bridge shootout thread.


----------



## robertsong

Bob
  
 What is the switch on the front panel for? I can only get it to work with the red USB light on. Does that mean it's powered from the +5V usb bus?


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Bob
> 
> What is the switch on the front panel for? I can only get it to work with the red USB light on. Does that mean it's powered from the +5V usb bus?


The switch is just an on off switch. The USB light (mine is green) just means a USB connection is detected. It doesn't need any USB power. I use the data only line of a split Forza USB cable with no issues, the power lead left disconnected. The Gustard would not work without a USB power lead.


----------



## robertsong

Huh, I guess the lights on mine are backwards. Weird.


----------



## rb2013

Had a big night last night!  First had a chance to do a private audition(with a few other audiophiles) of Jason Serinus's mega system.  Jason is a reviewer for Stereophile magazine - and was a wonderful and gracious host.  His system would cost over $250,000!   Was very detailed and dynamic - I will post a separate thread with my impressions.

  
 But for me even more exciting was the shootout done at another friend's house on his amazing system - the show down between the Empirical Off Ramp 5 (Dynamo PS) and the Breeze Audio DU-U8 (Art Audio PB 4x4PRO PS filter).
  
 I will start a new thread on the DU-U8 after last night multi-hour face-off.  Let's say the OR5 running i2s with a totl hdmi cable was just a notch better (on one track a draw) vs the DU-U8 (with a Regen/LPS) running S/PDIF coax.  Into the excellent PS Audio DirectStream DAC. 
  
 Unfortunately we only had a 1 meter Blue Jean SPDIF cable (less then medicore) for the DU-U8.  I had forgotten to bring along the excellent Audio Sensibility Statement Ref Silver 1.5M SPDIF coax cable I use.  The 1 meter length of the BJ cable an issue itself(see Steve Nugent's comments on SPDIF coax Cable length).  The i2s cable was the excellent PS Audio i2s HDMI cable - from Stereo Times:


> And by the way, a PS Audio AC-12 HDMI cable was included in the shipment. It is a rather sophisticated implementation of I2S, a single HDMI cable instead of the usual three or four coaxial cables. I2S is supposed to be the bee’s knees of transport/DAC interfaces having inherently lower jitter probably for a couple of reasons: the clocks and data do not have to be multiplexed, and the clocks and data do not have to be demultiplexed. Thus two signal processing circuits, two potential sources of noise and jitter, are bypassed. The cable itself is an attractive piece of work using silver conductors, Teflon insulation, triple shielding, gold-plated, machined HDMI connectors and a delightfully old-fashioned serving pattern. The AC-12 will support data (10GBps) and clock (340MHz) rates in excess of those required for digital audio transmission.


 
  
 On the importance of 1.5M length on S/PDIF coax cables:
 http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm


> Many of you may have heard or read that it is beneficial to use at least a 1.5m length digital cable from your Transport to your DAC. There are actually technical reasons for this, but the requirement also depends on the behavior of the signal from the S/PDIF digital output on your Transport. It turns-out that the jitter on the digital signal can increase if the cable is too short, and the increased jitter can cause the audio to have "halos" or be out of focus.


 
  
 More info on the Audio Sensibility Statement- SE Silver S/PDIF RCA Digital Cable:
 http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/digital-cables-occ-copper-and-occ-silver/#!/Statement-SE-Silver-S-PDIF-RCA-BNC-Digital-Cable/p/46391588/category=4059160
  
 Anyway it was a great way to A/B demo as the DirectStream can be remote control switched between i2s and SPDIF coax inputs (the Jriver Media Center had to be reset as well).  All told it took maybe 60 seconds to make the switch.
  
 The DU-U8 on one track was actually slightly preferred on the first two rounds (we did this as a double blind test - only I knew which was which), the OR5 preferred on the final round with the same track.
  
 On a pure instrumental track the OR5 edged out the DU-U8 by a steady vote.
  
 But here is the kicker the OR5 is $1500 as  auditioned  -  the DU--U8(Talema) $329 ($150 + $179 for the Regen).  Wow!  I feel with a better 1.5M SPDIF cable it would have been even closer.  Great stuff!
  
 So I will start a new thread on the Breeze DU-U8 - as I will begin a series of mods, tweeks and will be ordering the Crystek CCHD-957 clocks for installation.  Already have a Cerious power cable on the way to give that a try on the DU-U8.  Just to see how far this inexpensive USB bridge can be taken.
  
 https://app.audiogon.com/listings/ac-cables-cerious-technologies-graphene-extreme-black-friday-sale-2015-11-09-power-85382-peoria-az?show
  
 http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/off-ramp-converter

 Cheers!


----------



## lateboomer

I have got 2 Regens, one is green earlier spec, 1 is amber current spec. The green one is connected to Minipro HD as shown:

Minipro 2TB Ext HD (5V LPS) > Regen (7.6v LPS) > Bryston BDP-2 with new integrated audio card (better spdif/aes output) > Oehlbach XXL AES cable 1.5 m > Bryston BDA-2 dac

This combination is sounded better than using usb audio output from BDP-2 connected to Regen Amber then to BDA-2.

I also have one Wyred Remedy reclocker and 2 jitterbugs which are idle. I would like to know should I try out DU-U8 connected with Regen and feed by usb audio from BDP-2 then reclock the spdif output again with Remedy into BDA-2:

Minipro 2TB Ext HD (5V LPS) > Regen (7.6v LPS) > Bryston BDP-2 > Jittebug > cabledyne usb cable 1 m > Regen (9v LPS) > DU-U8 with Talema (LPS) > Oehlbach XXL spdif cable > Wyred Remedy > Monitor Audio short male-to-male rca adapter > Bryston BDA-2 dac

Will this further improve the SQ to another level and much better?


----------



## m0reilly

rb, would there be a difference if using a 'real' ( 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) spdif (bnc terminations) if using shorter lengths? it almost sounds as if the sellers of these cables (they also offer shorter lengths, at least of the bnc variety) want you to purchase the more expensive rca model...though cable length w/the hdmi/i2s this has been noted a bit ago as a possible issue.


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> rb, would there be a difference if using a 'real' (
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 From the excellent Steve Nugent White paper on S/PDIF coax cable lengths -


> S/PDIF (or *S*ony/*P*hilips *D*igital *I*nter*f*ace) is a digital signaling standard specified at 75 ohms characteristic impedance and terminated on both ends. This means that the source driver (in the Transport) must have an output impedance of 75 ohms and the receiver (in the DAC) must have a parallel resistive termination of 75 ohms. If these terminations are both set to 75 ohms, then ideally the signal will propagate from the Transport to the DAC and no reflections will occur on the transmission-line that connects the Transport to the DAC, assuming that all components of the transmission-line are also 75 ohms. The transmission-line components (excluding the driver, receiver and terminations) include:
> 
> The traces on the Transport circuit board that connect to the driver chip
> The wiring to the output connector
> ...


 
 So I think to answer your question this is the operative sentence : "This is why it is insufficient to replace the RCA connectors with BNC’s without addressing the wiring and circuit-board traces that are not 75 ohms characteristic impedance."


----------



## rb2013

lateboomer said:


> I have got 2 Regens, one is green earlier spec, 1 is amber current spec. The green one is connected to Minipro HD as shown:
> 
> Minipro 2TB Ext HD (5V LPS) > Regen (7.6v LPS) > Bryston BDP-2 with new integrated audio card (better spdif/aes output) > Oehlbach XXL AES cable 1.5 m > Bryston BDA-2 dac
> 
> ...


 

 Great question - so at my friends house (and in my systems) we tried a verity of combinations.  First the Regen(amber) straight to the DirectStream (6inch cable and SMPS) -vs without.  Definitely without was better (at the time we started I didn't realize he was not using the adapter plug as recommended by Uptone).  Then we listened to the OF5(i2s to the PS Audio Direct Stream)- big improvement.
  
 So next up the DU-U8 with the Remedy reclocker (no Regen) with a 9VDC R-core LPS - Nice but the OF5 was clearly better.
 Then the DU-U8 alone - this was actually very slightly better then with the Remedy/LPS (now note the very poor S/PDIF cables used to and from the Remedy).  The OF5 still ahead but not hearly as much and in some ways the DU-U8 was preferred.
  
 Then the DU-U8 with the Regen, but this time without the lousy 6 inch cable (USB adapter instead) and without the SMPS - instead fed with the R-Core LPS.  Wow!
 Now we are talking!  We did the listening with 4 people (me included) and only I knew which was which.  So comparing this set-up to the OF5/Dynamo - on the first two rounds the DU-U8/Regen/LPS was very slightly preferred - on the final round (all of these rounds listening to Bettye Lavette track called 'Crazy' off the album 'Thankful and Thoughtful') the OF5 was slightly preferred.  So I would call it a draw.  On another round listening to a instrumental track called 'Spell' often album called 'Achirana' by 'Tsabropoulos' (these were audition tracks my host was familiar with) the OF5/Dynamo was slightly preferred on the first few rounds - but on the last round was the clear winner.
  
 One note, on the tracks I brought - Selena Gomez 'Revival', Mumford and Sons 'The Cave' and Florence and the Machine 'Ship to Wreck' - tracks I'm more familiar with - my host did not like the sound of - commenting they were not very good recordings.  Well these were EAC ripped 16/44 wave files - that sound awesome on my system.  With detail,, warmth and dynamics.  On his they did not have the depth of imaging and sounded a bit bleached in tone.  We did use the 'Revival' track on the first round though - so I could calibrate my listening in a new system.  I listen to a lot of newer music and not just 'super fidelity' recordings. I'm probably the last guy on earth still buying CDs!  I listen to music 8 hours a day - so I like new stuff and old stuff - but use audition tracks from each.  My system must sound good on recordings that may not be 'super fidelity' - so it has to be somewhat forgiving and non-fatiguing listening to everything from old Zep recording to newer (non-compressed) artists.
  
 Now my question is what about the Remedy with great SPDIF coax cables and fed by a LPS - AND the Regen with adapter and LPS - AND the DU-U8 vs. the OF5/Dynamo?
 Can the DU-U8 beat the OF5(i2s) in this configuration?  What about the DU-U8 with different caps?  Crystek clocks?  We will reconvene to continue this comparison.
  
 Note the $1500 Empirical Off Ramp 5 does NOT do DSD - where as the DU-U8 will do DSD native up to 256 over i2s and DSD Dop at 128 over SPDIF.  We did not test these modes due to time constraints.  Also not the $1800 Berkeley USB ox does not do DSD or i2s.  With the nature of the way the DirectStreamDAC processes everything in DSD - having DSD files running native from the DU-U8 to the DirectStream could be a big winner.
  
  
 To answer your question - I would be surprise if using a separate USB bridge DU-U8 would not sound better then the built in USB board on the BDA-2.  Any specs on that board - XMOS processor? Amereno? Clocks?
  
 The JB's have been an incremental improvement in both of my systems - so definitely give them a try.  Now on the Remedy and the Regen - they are very system dependent.  In one system the Regen fed by a LPS (and using the adapter) was a very nice improvement (heavily modded DAC60) but was slightly regressive in my other system.  I have the newer Regen listed for sale in the classifieds (but anyone interested can have either one as they sound identical).  Now on the Remedy with a LPS PS, it did improve both systems - just one more then the other.  But I need to try it with the ViaBlue Male to Male RCA adapter vs using this Best Buy digital cable for one link.  So it may well be a bigger improvement in my main system.  The ViaBlue should be here soon to try.


----------



## m0reilly

rb, yes, i am assuming the bare cable is (75 ohm) as advertised (documented), and that the hydra bnc output is indeed 75 ohm, leaving the dac60 input in question. i was thinking of soldering the raw cable directly to the dac60, and using only one connector to the hydra, but will basically trust that the transmission lines components (cable and bnc fittings) are up to snuff, along with the hydras, and hope that lite had the wherewithal to keep it's spdif a true 75 ohm...


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> rb, yes, i am assuming the bare cable is (75 ohm) as advertised (documented), and that the hydra bnc output is indeed 75 ohm, leaving the dac60 input in question. i was thinking of soldering the raw cable directly to the dac60, and using only one connector to the hydra, but will basically trust that the transmission lines components (cable and bnc fittings) are up to snuff, along with the hydras, and hope that lite had the wherewithal to keep it's spdif a true 75 ohm...


 

 That would be an interesting experiment.  What about adding a i2s line as an alternative input option, maybe running off the SPDIF optical after the optical converter?  Then you could switch the inputs with the front switch.  Running the i2s out of the DU-U8.


----------



## m0reilly

that would be totally awesome if it would play out. any module (hdmi) come to mind? i haven't a clue, but would something like this be a start?
 http://hifimediy.com/i2s-DSD-isolator


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> that would be totally awesome if it would play out. any module (hdmi) come to mind? i haven't a clue, but would something like this be a start?
> http://hifimediy.com/i2s-DSD-isolator


 
 Well the question what is on those three lines J1, J2, J3?  It is an IV standard V+/GND/V-?  Or just a converter optical to electrical SPDIF?  Maybe one of these de-embedder boxes would do the i2s HDMI conversion - that could be wired directly?
 http://everythingaudionetwork.blogspot.com/2013/04/audiophile-review-hdmi-de-embedder.html


----------



## m0reilly

those are from standard hdmi to spdif by the looks of it.


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> those are from standard hdmi to spdif by the looks of it.


 

 I believe they have a i2s pass through - but maybe not.


----------



## rb2013

Ok the totl Cerious Tech Graphene Extreme (Red - low current) power cord arrived today.  Cold out of the box into the Breeze Audio DU-U8 - replacing a very nice generic silver power cable with Robiium connectors.
  
 Cold out of the box new - no break in - the results - Outstanding!  Even greater warmth and liquidity.  Deeper bass, better flow, greater detail, the BIG winner - a deeper even more Holographic presentation.   The DU-U8 certainly responses to better power cables.  Can't wait to hear this after 200 hrs of run time.
  
 From the Cerious Tech website on the Graphene Extreme.
 http://cerioustechnologies.com/cables/lcPowerCords.html

 This cable deserves it's own thread.  I've never had a power cable sound so dramatically great - cold new out of the box.  And I have had dozens, including the crazy expensive Nordost Valhalla.
  










> Each GE jacket is filled with damping materials to eliminate vibrations. The RED power cables use finer ceramics to address smaller micro vibrations of lower current levels. Each RED PC uses a Gold Plated connector which works better at lower current levels (our listening test exposed this…). We offer a 100% money back guarantee and a liberal trade in policy if you are a previous Cerious Technologies client. You may be surprised how affordable it is to upgrade to the Graphene Extreme. So what do you get with the Graphene Extreme? More quiet and detail. Who doesn’t want that?
> Our goal of creating the most sonically transparent cables ever created has been brought to a new level. First let me say we continue to be very proud of the Nano Signature, as it was sonically outstanding. The Graphene Extreme takes the concepts of the Nano to whole other levels. While other "wire" companies utilize bigger gauge conductors as the line increases in price to justify the increased cost, Cerious Technologies works at the molecular level getting the conductor closer to an ideal conductor.
> Each Graphene Extreme conductor employs five elements –
> • Copper
> ...


----------



## phile1

Hi,
i plant o have a look & test the i2s output of my U12. 
I have 2 questions : 
1. after all your tests & tweaks on the U12, what should be considered 1st to improve the U12 : 
- use the i2S first, ans consider this ouput 1st because is the best by far ? 
- or changing clock or other parts ?
2. regarding the i2S connection, does it work to use an optical bridge with 2 fiber media converters to convey i2s signal over "long" distance (using i2s with RJ45 connectors) ?
sorry if the 2nd question is dead stupid 
Thks


----------



## MINORISUKE

phile1 said:


> .....
> 2. regarding the i2S connection, does it work to use an optical bridge with 2 fiber media converters to convey i2s signal over "long" distance (using i2s with RJ45 connectors) ?
> sorry if the 2nd question is dead stupid


 
 I experimented with a 5m-long HDMI cable between U12 and DAC-X20.  There was absolutely no issue for playback.


----------



## rb2013

The Cerious. Tech power cable was had a few days to run in, as expected the sound has openned up more , the sound stage deepening, and best just sumptuously smooth.

A killer combination on the DU-U8. I sold my modded Jolida phono pre, so bought another Cerious Extreme to try on the DAC. Using a Synergistic Research Ref X1 active now, a great cable, so will see if it betters it. If now it'll go on my other DU-U8.

So thrille at this sound, going through new and old stuff, relishing the 'new' sound.


----------



## m0reilly

ok, no more for this guy


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> The Cerious. Tech power cable was had a few days to run in, as expected the sound has openned up more , the sound stage deepening, and best just sumptuously smooth.
> 
> A killer combination on the DU-U8. I sold my modded Jolida phono pre, so bought another Cerious Extreme to try on the DAC. Using a Synergistic Research Ref X1 active now, a great cable, so will see if it betters it. If now it'll go on my other DU-U8.
> 
> So thrille at this sound, going through new and old stuff, relishing the 'new' sound.


 
 I have a like new Synergistic Research Tesla T1 power cable i'm not using for sale.  
  
 not sure how it compares to what you have.  sounds like you have expensive taste! 
  
 -T


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I have a like new Synergistic Research Tesla T1 power cable i'm not using for sale.
> 
> not sure how it compares to what you have.  sounds like you have expensive taste!
> 
> -T


 

 I tried the Tesla T's - I like the active shielding T2 better but much too expensive.  The excellent Synergistic Res X1 (active shielding)  can be had for around $200 used on Audiogon - I think they were like $500 new.
  
 The Cerious Graphene Extremes are normally $500 but they are offered new on Audiogon for $250.  Not cheap - but reasonable for the technology involved.
 Most important the SQ improvement - very nice!
  
 I'm no price snob - I sold the $800 Hydra for the $150 DU-U8 - as I found the DU sounded better.  and didn't need the $150 LPS TedaDak like the Z.  So I sold the Z and the money went to the Wyred Remedy (and the TeraDak). Now with my digital system surpassing my analog in warmth, musicality, and way quieter. That allowed me to sell my modded Jolida JD-9/Tele Smooth Plates.  Those funds went to buy the Cerious cables.  So net - I actually have money left over.


----------



## PWGuy

rb2013 said:


> I tried the Tesla T's - I like the active shielding T2 better but much too expensive.  The excellent Synergistic Res X1 (active shielding)  can be had for around $200 used on Audiogon - I think they were like $500 new.
> 
> The Cerious Graphene Extremes are normally $500 but they are offered new on Audiogon for $250.  Not cheap - but reasonable for the technology involved.
> Most important the SQ improvement - very nice!
> ...




You are still running the DU-U8 off the TeraDak with R-core, right?


----------



## rb2013

pwguy said:


> You are still running the DU-U8 off the TeraDak with R-core, right?


 
 No the Breeze DU-U8 takes AC not DC like the Hydra Z.  The Wryed for Sound Remedy takes a 9VDC input, so I adjusted the R-Core TeraDak to 9VDC (it has a voltage adjustment inside).
  
 The DU-U8 is run directly to a PS filter (PB 4X4PRO), so the reason for the investment in a high quality AC power cord.  To see if it responds, some gear doesn't much.
  
 The experiment was a huge success!  The DU-U8 can be improved by the simple use of a better AC power cord.  YMMV.


----------



## PWGuy

rb2013 said:


> No the Breeze DU-U8 takes AC not DC like the Hydra Z.  The Wryed for Sound Remedy takes a 9VDC input, so I adjusted the R-Core TeraDak to 9VDC (it has a voltage adjustment inside).
> 
> The DU-U8 is run directly to a PS filter (PB 4X4PRO), so the reason for the investment in a high quality AC power cord.  To see if it responds, some gear doesn't much.
> 
> The experiment was a huge success!  The DU-U8 can be improved by the simple use of a better AC power cord.  YMMV.




Got it - thanks! Following all of your tests/products, so trying to keep it all straight!


----------



## rb2013

pwguy said:


> Got it - thanks! Following all of your tests/products, so trying to keep it all straight!


 

 Thanks for following along - lot's of combinations and gear.  The payoff has been huge


----------



## onlythat

Soon the greatest potential 'tweak' of all; my Puc 2 lite will get a chance to tweak the Breeze's nose as I'll have a Breeze in-house ready to go note for note with Herr Puc for bragging rights in the living room. Loser gets booted and 'tweaked' over to the headphone system in the office. Should be an interesting fight.

Interestingly, I actually preferred the Audioquest JB (two of them- one serial and one parallel) in both systems to the regen Amber (which I still have) as powered by teradak. The JB's were immediately more musical to me whereas even after break in, the regen has yet to do for me what everyone says it does for them. I just don't hear that it gets more 'musical' when I put the regen in. I keep going 'ummm... maybe this, or a little that?' But with the JB it was immediately apparent on a Beethoven concerto that there was more depth and the strings were beautiful like never before. That's what I wanted the regen to do. Maybe it's because I'm running it into these converters instead of dac-direct. Who knows. 

In other news, a Chord Silver Plus USB cable with a jitterbug runs very close some more 'supreme' type cables I've heard. I am interested to see what a Supra will do. Don't love the stock split USB cable included with the yellowtec, though it has its merits. May try a Forza. 

 I AM, however, loving a very affordable 12 foot run of Mogami Gold balanced digital cable (runs over six feet being touted by some as best in terms of AES digital cable sonics) which preliminarily seems to have a bit more bass impact/depth and top-end clarity than a shorter length (a meter) of blue jean. I did read on that same cable forum that some guy thought the Mogami Gold ran the super pricey MIT Oracle digital cable to a dead heat; hence my purchase of said Mogami. (Didn't have the extra 3000 bucks on hand for the Oracle and wasn't available on Amazon).

Oh and rb, I got a huge shock (not literally though when I used a cheap extension cord with outlet extender to plug my mx-u8 converter in across the room. Yikes! a hard edgy sound I never heard from the system before. Terrible! So I went direct into wall again and fixed. Yes sir- no double blind testing was needed on that one I can totally see how something like a power cord can make those musically important differences you write about even with a USB converter. But Selena Gomez!? Rb, really, we need to talk...


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Soon the greatest potential 'tweak' of all; my Puc 2 lite will get a chance to tweak the Breeze's nose as I'll have a Breeze in-house ready to go note for note with Herr Puc for bragging rights in the living room. Loser gets booted and 'tweaked' over to the headphone system in the office. Should be an interesting fight.
> 
> Interestingly, I actually preferred the Audioquest JB (two of them- one serial and one parallel) in both systems to the regen Amber (which I still have) as powered by teradak. The JB's were immediately more musical to me whereas even after break in, the regen has yet to do for me what everyone says it does for them. I just don't hear that it gets more 'musical' when I put the regen in. I keep going 'ummm... maybe this, or a little that?' But with the JB it was immediately apparent on a Beethoven concerto that there was more depth and the strings were beautiful like never before. That's what I wanted the regen to do. Maybe it's because I'm running it into these converters instead of dac-direct. Who knows.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice post!  In the left corner the PUC2 Lite in the right the Breeze DU-U8...ding, ding, ding...
  
 I really like the JB's (only one between the USB cable and PC). Kept one Regen/LPS TeraDak and sold the other Regen - as I posted before worked great in one system slightly hurt in my main one.  The Wryed Remedy/LPS TeraDak - helped a bunch in one but only a little in my main system, still waiting for the ViaBlue RCA to RCA adapter to arrive, so that may make a difference (right now just using a cheap best buy spdif coax cable between the Remedy and DAC).
  
 I received the Supra 2M USB cable last week - pretty good.
  
 So far the Cerious Graphene Xtreme power cord on the DU-U8 has made a bigger difference then either the JB or the Regen/LPS or Wryed Remedy/LPS on my main system.  For me with a decades long experience in rolling many different power cords through various equipment it wasn't to surprising - the 'shock' 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 was how, without breakin, the Cerious is.
  
 I love 'Revival'!  Nice stuff - I also like Lana Dey Ray's 'Ultraviloence', Lorde - 'Pure Heroine', Florence and the Machine 'How Big, How Blue, How Beautiful' and 'Lungs'.  Picked up all the Black Keys on vinyl and digitalized (Attack and Release and Turn Blue are my favorites), The 1975 also, Aritic Monkeys 'AM' (really great), Cage the Elephant, etc...I just like hearing new stuff.
  
 Can't wait to the hear the results of the DDC boxing match! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Can't listen to old Zep over and over forever..Run classical barque on the office system all day in the background.
  
 Next up - just bought the Adele's 25 CD.  Will burn tonight.


----------



## phile1

hi,
you talk about the Breeze DU-U8. Does it outperform the Gustard U12 ?

I have digital amp, qlshifi qa100.
This weekend i managed to find a way to cable the hdmi i2s output of the U12 to the RJ45 i2s input of the QA100.
Based on a really basic connection, it sounds pretty ok.
I prepare a new cable where conections will be soldiered. Then I'll compare i2s to the other outputs. 
Quite tricky and not straight forward to find the right wire on the hdmi cable to connect to the right wire on the rj45 cable... but finally i got them. if someone is interested I'll post info and photos regarding this type of non-standard link.
Rgds


----------



## stuartmc

phile1 said:


> hi,
> you talk about the Breeze DU-U8. Does it outperform the Gustard U12 ?
> 
> I have digital amp, qlshifi qa100.
> ...


 
 Great job. I'm sure there are a number of folks facing this same conundrum that would greatly appreciate a brief U12 I2S to RJ45 guide.


----------



## m0reilly

it's not a simple wire switch. there is more to the hdmi vs rj i2s than that...
 "it sounds pretty ok..." is not a result many would hold valid. not trying to be negative here, but there is a big difference between hdmi i2s and the rj implementation


----------



## hgpsemaj

phile1 said:


> hi,
> you talk about the Breeze DU-U8. Does it outperform the Gustard U12 ?
> 
> I have digital amp, qlshifi qa100.
> ...


 
  
 Hello Phile 1,
  
 Do the speakers swap with each other when you replay I2S output? Member of this forum and me are experiencing this problem on I2S replay.
  
 I think how you handle the 5V from the HDMI output is the tricky bit.
  
  
  
 Regards,


----------



## victorcc

rb2013 said:


> So I will start a new thread on the Breeze DU-U8 - as I will begin a series of mods, tweeks and will be ordering the Crystek CCHD-957 clocks for installation.  Already have a Cerious power cable on the way to give that a try on the DU-U8.  Just to see how far this inexpensive USB bridge can be taken.
> 
> Cheers!


 
  
 Please let us know when you open the Breeze DU-U8 thread.
  
 Cheers


----------



## DACLadder

phile1 said:


> hi,
> you talk about the Breeze DU-U8. Does it outperform the Gustard U12 ?
> 
> I have digital amp, qlshifi qa100.
> ...


 

 Phile, I would be interested in how you connect LVDS output to TTL input by wiring alone.  There are a lot of differences between these two digital interfaces and common wisdom says that it cannot be done without the use a some type of translator chip to convert the signalling.   So let's see what you have!


----------



## rb2013

phile1 said:


> hi,
> you talk about the Breeze DU-U8. Does it outperform the Gustard U12 ?
> 
> I have digital amp, qlshifi qa100.
> ...


 
 Yes I found the DU-U8 the best I've heard yet (other then a close shootout with the $1500 Empirical OffRamp 5 using i2S HDMI and the DU-U8 S/PDIF coax).  It even beat, in my two systems, the Hydra Z/LPS.  IMO way better then the U12.  In comparison the U12 sounds veiled and lacking in deep bass, but on it's own the U12 is pretty good, so the DU-U8 is really a killer great DDC.  With the Cerious Graphene Red power cable - taken to another level (would love hear this combo against the OR5 - I bet a very close tie).
  


stuartmc said:


> Great job. I'm sure there are a number of folks facing this same conundrum that would greatly appreciate a brief U12 I2S to RJ45 guide.


 
 Ditto
  


hgpsemaj said:


> Hello Phile 1,
> 
> Do the speakers swap with each other when you replay I2S output? Member of this forum and me are experiencing this problem on I2S replay.
> 
> ...


 
 I remember that discussion. i2s us wrought with challenges.  I see even the raved about R2R state of the art audio technology $2,300 totl Schiit YYGGDRASIL DAC has no i2s input (or DSD).
  


victorcc said:


> Please let us know when you open the Breeze DU-U8 thread.
> 
> Cheers


 
 Holidays and work have me tied up - soon.
 Cheers!


----------



## Jerryfan

Can someone post a link for the right crystek clocks for the breeze?


----------



## rb2013

jerryfan said:


> Can someone post a link for the right crystek clocks for the breeze?


 

 One each:
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CCHD-957-25-22.5792/744-1456-ND/2742155
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CCHD-957-25-24.576/744-1457-ND/2742156


----------



## Jerryfan

rb2013 said:


> One each:
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CCHD-957-25-22.5792/744-1456-ND/2742155
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CCHD-957-25-24.576/744-1457-ND/2742156




Great! Thank you! Now, where can I get a unit with a Talema transformer, and have them install the crysteks? I'm in the states.


----------



## m0reilly

jerryfan said:


> ...and have them install the crysteks? I'm in the states.


 
 this


----------



## phile1

hi
regarding the hdmi to rj45 cable for i2s.
i did a V form cable yesterday evening to feed my 2 digital amp.
Nice cable with 2 rj45 cables sstp, soldiered on a hdmi connector. the easiest way for me, and i think it is more efficient regarding EMI.
Soldiers are not nice because I am just a beginner in this job. 
Conclusion : same sound than toslink !
i would say : not bad for a stupid trial but no gain. ... thus I'm a bit disappointed because everyone is saying that i2s outperform the other connections, but not in that case. 
Back to work right now. Wait for a few hours for my reports. 
rgds


----------



## victorcc

rb2013 said:


> One each:
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CCHD-957-25-22.5792/744-1456-ND/2742155
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CCHD-957-25-24.576/744-1457-ND/2742156


 
 Thanks!
  
 I am waiting for my Breeze Version 3 to arrive. I would like to try crystek clocks but I am not sure if I will be able to install them. Is it an easy operation for someone that only used the solder to replace resistors and caps here and there?
  
 Cheers


----------



## abartels

nope, it's not, can't understand why you didn't order it with crysteks, member hgpsemaj wrote this more than a month ago, you can order it with crysteks but you have to provide manufacturer with those,,,


----------



## victorcc

abartels said:


> nope, it's not, can't understand why you didn't order it with crysteks, member hgpsemaj wrote this more than a month ago, you can order it with crysteks but you have to provide manufacturer with those,,,




I missed that post, I did not know that the seller would do that. 

Thanks for the reply anyway


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> nope, it's not, can't understand why you didn't order it with crysteks, member hgpsemaj wrote this more than a month ago, you can order it with crysteks but you have to provide manufacturer with those,,,


 

 Has anyone really did this?  I'm about to try it - but the communication issue sure is a problem.
  
 May just have to spring for a good soldering air gun.


----------



## lateboomer

Can the xmos usb module of DU-U8 be exchanged or upgraded to Amanero board? Like this 2CH USB-I2S/DSD Audio Module-AKU384 board from Akodac? I am not technical enough and may be asking the wrong thing as apple to orange?


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Has anyone really did this?  I'm about to try it - but the communication issue sure is a problem.
> 
> May just have to spring for a good soldering air gun.


 
  
 Maybe ask hgpsemaj if he can help?


----------



## m0reilly

> hi
> regarding the hdmi to rj45 cable for i2s.
> i did a V form cable yesterday evening to feed my 2 digital amp.
> Nice cable with 2 rj45 cables sstp, soldiered on a hdmi connector. the easiest way for me, and i think it is more efficient regarding EMI.
> ...


 
 when you do either version of i2s 'properly', you get the results. your dac would need the required lvds input to accept the lvds signal from the u12...


----------



## conquerator2

Breeze in. Letting it burn in. Will report later


----------



## phile1

Hi,
 I posted my report regarding the basic cable from I2S over HDMI to I2S over RJ45
 here it is => http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/282985-simple-cable-connect-i2s-over-hdmi-i2s-over-rj45-devices.html
 Rgds


----------



## Etienne

Hi,
 "The Breeze DU-U8 is not working on Linux system." That's the response from the ebay's vendor when I ask him about the compatibility of the device.
 So, my question is : Do you think it will work with my system (based on Linux fedora) if I use the USB-Regen (Linux-compatible) between the computer and the DU-U8 ?
  
 Regards,
 Etienne


----------



## victorcc

etienne said:


> Hi,
> "The Breeze DU-U8 is not working on Linux system." That's the response from the ebay's vendor when I ask him about the compatibility of the device.
> So, my question is : Do you think it will work with my system (based on Linux fedora) if I use the USB-Regen (Linux-compatible) between the computer and the DU-U8 ?
> 
> ...




Hi Etienne,

I expect to receive my Breeze tomorrow (after paying around 35€ in import  taxes  ) and I hope that it works with Linux as I do not plan to change to Windows.   I have a very similar system:  Voyage MPD Linux  => Empirical Audio Short Block =>  USB-Regen  =>  Gustard U12 / Breeze Audio  

The Gustard worked smoothly with no change or configuration in my Linux. As the Breeze unit is based on XMOS too I expect it to work the same. I will report back during the weekend.

Cheers,

    Victor.


----------



## Etienne

victorcc said:


> Hi Etienne,
> 
> I expect to receive my Breeze tomorrow (after paying around 35€ in import  taxes L ) and I hope that it works with Linux as I do not plan to change to Windows.   I have a very similar system:  Voyage MPD Linux  => Empirical Audio Short Block =>  USB-Regen  è  Gustard U12 / Breeze Audio
> 
> ...


 

 Hi Victor,
  
 Thanks for your reply. I'm waiting for your report.
 I expect it will work with the Breeze Audio too.
 In any case, I suppose that the configuration in Linux is oriented to the USB-Regen and therefore the devices behind the Regen don't matter.
  
 Regards,
 Etienne


----------



## victorcc

etienne said:


> Hi Victor,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I'm waiting for your report.
> I expect it will work with the Breeze Audio too.
> ...




I hope so but we will see. I understand that the Regen is kind of USB hub so the device after it must be compatible too.

Cheers


----------



## rb2013

The ViaBlue RCA to RCA male connector arrived.


 Running the Wyrd for Sound Remedy directly into the heavily modded DAC60, eliminating the cheap best buy spdif coax cable between the Remedy and the DAC, made an amazingly significant improvement in SQ.  More liquidity, with greater detail and dynamics. Combing with DU-U8 killer good.
  
 So here is the chain  PCFB2K>Jitterbug>Supra USB cable>Regen/LPS/USB adapter>Breeze DU-U8>Audio Sensibilities Silver Ref S/PDIF COax Cable 1.5M>Remedy/LPS>ViaBlue connector>DAC60.
  
 Generic sliver/rhodium power cords on the DAC60, DU-U8 and LPS TeraDak LPS - the R-core Tera DC-30W set to 9VDC on the Remedy and the Tera X1/X2 LPS set to 7.5VDC on the Regen.  I have a second Cerious Graphene Xtreme coming to use on the DAC60 or the DU-U8 - which ever produces the best sound.  Separate PB4X4Pro power filters.  The DU-U8 and Regen on one and the DAC60 and Remedy on the other.
  
 Best sound yet from the office system.  Note the Remedy has a totl Crystek CCHD-957 ultra low phase noise clock that reclocks the already super clean SPDIF feed from the DU-U8/Regen and acts as the master clock for the DAC60 - one positive benefit of S/PDIF coax. 
  
 Tonight will try the Remedy on the main system.


----------



## victorcc

Just to confirm, as expected above, that the breeze du-u8 works in Linux with no update needed. My configuration: Voyage MPD Linux => Empirical Audio Short Block => USB-Regen => Breeze Audio 

Cheers


----------



## rb2013

victorcc said:


> Just to confirm, as expected above, that the breeze du-u8 works in Linux with no update needed. My configuration: Voyage MPD Linux => Empirical Audio Short Block => USB-Regen => Breeze Audio
> 
> Cheers


 

 Don't know about Linux - don't have that OS yet.


----------



## Etienne

victorcc said:


> Just to confirm, as expected above, that the breeze du-u8 works in Linux with no update needed. My configuration: Voyage MPD Linux => Empirical Audio Short Block => USB-Regen => Breeze Audio
> 
> Cheers


 

 Thanks, Victor.
 I'm waiting for my Regen and I will order the Breeze DU-U8 with Talema transformer.
 I will question the vendor about a "Crysteks option".
  
 Etienne


----------



## GCTD

Does anyone know if I need a Gustard U12 to fully take advantage of the Gustard DAC-X12 and it's features? I only have a Gustard DAC-X12 and it only reaches 24bit, 192khz in Windows 8.1 control panel when it's advertised as 32bit, 384khz through USB. Beyond that there are no other software features, it's bare bones. I'm using "Xmos Stereo USB Audio Class2 version 2.23.0" drivers by the way, that's it. 

Please and thank you.


----------



## rb2013

gctd said:


> Does anyone know if I need a Gustard U12 to fully take advantage of the Gustard DAC-X12 and it's features? I only have a Gustard DAC-X12 and it only reaches 24bit, 192khz in Windows 8.1 control panel when it's advertised as 32bit, 384khz through USB. Beyond that there are no other software features, it's bare bones. I'm using "Xmos Stereo USB Audio Class2 version 2.23.0" drivers by the way, that's it.
> 
> Please and thank you.


 

 It would likely sound better - but to get 32/384K you will have to use i2s. 
  
 PS try Foobar 2000 as your player - it's free


----------



## rb2013

Who grabbed that Remedy up on Audiogon for $295?  Damn you beat me to it!
  
 I was going to buy it for my second system - but just wanted to test out the new sound in my main system with the ViaBlue connector first.
  
 That thing sold in like one day.


----------



## Voltot

rb2013 said:


> Who grabbed that Remedy up on Audiogon for $295?  Damn you beat me to it!
> 
> I was going to buy it for my second system - but just wanted to test out the new sound in my main system with the ViaBlue connector first.
> 
> That thing sold in like one day.


 
 mb your Wyred for Sound Remedy will be useless thing if you upgrade DU-U8 for Crystek.


----------



## rb2013

voltot said:


> mb your Wyred for Sound Remedy will be useless thing if you upgrade DU-U8 for Crystek.


 

 Oh you have a Remedy and a DU-U8 with a Crystek?
  
 Anyway - the Remedy does something completely different.  But thanks for your 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 informed opinion.


----------



## Voltot

Just a opinion.


----------



## rb2013

voltot said:


> Just a opinion.


 

 Yes Thanks!


----------



## m0reilly

if i could get a remedy with a bnc on the front side, id be a happy man...i guess id have to call wyred or take a shot at removing the existing rca in from the remedy board...


----------



## m0reilly

...if i pick one up...just ordered the breeze with the talema and expedited shipping...


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> if i could get a remedy with a bnc on the front side, id be a happy man...i guess id have to call wyred or take a shot at removing the existing rca in from the remedy board...


 

 Yes, It's a pretty tight fit in there.


----------



## ahendler

We had a USB cable blind shootout at our audio club.
 20 people participated and they all heard differences In the sound of the USB cables
 The cable that was liked the best was the Audioquest Carbon ( $170)  followed by the Lightspeed 10G ($999)
 Remember the signal carried by the USB cable is an analog signal. The dac takes this signal and creates the digital bits
 Since it is an analog signal the cable suffers from typical analog cable problems. Noise, reflections from impedance mismatches and cable jitter.
 In this case bits are not always bits. People who don't believe have not really listened carefully
 Alan


----------



## rb2013

ahendler said:


> We had a USB cable blind shootout at our audio club.
> 20 people participated and they all heard differences In the sound of the USB cables
> The cable that was liked the best was the Audioquest Carbon ( $170)  followed by the Lightspeed 10G ($999)
> Remember the signal carried by the USB cable is an analog signal. The dac takes this signal and creates the digital bits
> ...


 
 Thanks Alan.  I will have to give a Carbon a try - never had much luck with Audioquest stuff in the past - but the Jitterbug has really impressed me.
 BTW the JB was just picked by 'The Absolute Sound' as a Product of the Year.  Not the Regen.
  
 Can you list the other cables you guys compared?  The 10G is a very well regarded cable, although I have never heard it,
  
 I agree cable impedences, RFI/EMI shielding, etc... all matter,
  
 For an inexpensive cable I'm impressed by the $49 Supra USB.


----------



## rb2013

Doing a little research on the AQ Carbon - over on CA many seem to prefer the more expensive Coffee.  Other prefer the $1135 Mapleshade to either.  I sense a USB cable roll coming. 
  
 http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Clearlink-USB-20-Cable-3-Foot-Male-A-to-Male-B-PLUS-Version/productinfo/CLEARLINK3-B-PL/


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> Doing a little research on the AQ Carbon - over on CA many seem to prefer the more expensive Coffee.  Other prefer the $1135 Mapleshade to either.  I sense a USB cable roll coming.
> 
> http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Clearlink-USB-20-Cable-3-Foot-Male-A-to-Male-B-PLUS-Version/productinfo/CLEARLINK3-B-PL/




Ive been doing a little rolling myself and once again, I'm surprised and a little frustrated by the differences I hear. Geesh, just one more thing for me to get anal about.lol

The Audience AU24 proved to be the best of my bunch, but it does not play well with the AQ jitterbug. Fortunately, I got the Forza audio works twin USB (very similar build to AU24) and it costs way less, sounds almost as good and plays well with the jitterbug and Regen.


----------



## ahendler

Core 32 said the following
 "
 Good for you.
 A lot of people bought VW diesels as well based on the written word.
 Guess how that's working out for them now? "
  
 If I recall there measuremnts were fixed. How is that working out for VW and there cmers
 Alan


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> Ive been doing a little rolling myself and once again, I'm surprised and a little frustrated by the differences I hear. Geesh, just one more thing for me to get anal about.lol
> 
> The Audience AU24 proved to be the best of my bunch, but it does not play well with the AQ jitterbug. Fortunately, I got the Forza audio works twin USB (very similar build to AU24) and it costs way less, sounds almost as good and plays well with the jitterbug and Regen.


 

 Did you get the Forza Twin Copper or Silver?  I have the Twin Copper split - using just the data leg on the DU-U8 in the main system - very nice.  Excellent detail, smooth and warm sounding.
  
 The Audience is well regarded.
  
 Will try a Mapleshade USB Plus and Carbon once funds are available.


----------



## ahendler

elwappo99 said:


> Bit of an old post, but I had a Gustard U12 and compared it to my Audio-GD DI and was terribly disappointed with the Gustard U12 in comparison. USB audio is a really new thing and the technology is quickly evolving, but it seems AGD still is on the cutting edge of what's going on.
> 
> With all the hype in this thread, I was really expecting the Gustard to be a knock out, but in reality, I think it hits at about a $100 USB converter. It sounded dull, grainy and undetailed compared to the Audio-GD.
> 
> Good luck in your search!


 
 I have an Audio-gd master 7 with the Amanero usb input. Got a Gustard U12 and fed my Master 7 with the XLR
 feed from the U12. The resulting sound was better in every way. Am really pleased with the Gustard
 Alan


----------



## bimmer100

ahendler said:


> I have an Audio-gd master 7 with the Amanero usb input. Got a Gustard U12 and fed my Master 7 with the XLR
> feed from the U12. The resulting sound was better in every way. Am really pleased with the Gustard
> Alan




Really? I may want to try the XLR feed. I have been using the i2s HDMI with modded IC for proper pinout. The difference once pinout was corrected is minimal vs the Amanero. But slightly better anyhow. I will try XLR soon. I am using a master11 with Amanero combo 384. And gustard u12, modded IC for proper pinout with audiogd, Panasonic caps, and crystek 957's. Not to mention, the u12 is powered by ps300 ac regenerator, and teradak dc30w powering USB ppa3 ocxo for USB source to u12. Should be clean power all around. Still not a big diff between the u12 and 384. Yet noticeable. Just subtle. This seemed once I disabled PLL on the dsp of my Dac, it improved it a bit further.


----------



## conquerator2

My U12 is for sale. Any interested parties are welcome


----------



## rb2013

I'm in one of those Audio Nirvana places right now.  My systems are just sounding so good!  Lately I have had zero motivation to try and improve them (this is very unusual for me).  Listening all day and much of the night to amazing sounds - going back to old recordings and listening to them like the first time.  Hearing new stuff - and the depth and imaging is just breathtaking.  Last night - Of Monsters and Men 'My Head Is An Animal' - never really liked this album - but last night it sounded really good.  Then The Police 'Reggatta da Blanc' - 'Bring on the Night' was jaw dropping (those drum strikes echoing from 6 ft deep behind the speakers out into the room!
  
 Anyway I did try the Viablue with the Remedy/LPS on the main system - it was better then with the el cheapo spdif cable - but in the end prefered the sound without it.  Still the Remedy/LPS/Viablue is working very well on my office system with the DAC60.
  
 I have been just a bit curious about trying some new USB cables in the main system - so doing a bit of research there.  But the serious contenders are all so darn expensive.
  
 Audio Quest Diamond USB
 WW Plat USB
 Synergistic Research USB SE Active
 Paul Pang RedII
 Light Harmonic SR01-08 LightSpeed twin USB
  
 Of the bunch the PP is the 'cheapest' at $339 new.  Hoping to find one of these others heavily discounted.
  
 Kind of ruled out the AQ Carbon and the Mapleshade Clearlink plus - the Carbon for lack of detail and the Mapleshade for lack of bass extension and definition.
  
 Right now the Breeze DU-U8 with the Cerious Graphene Xtreme power cord has added so much air, transparency and well at least an octave of deeper better defined bass from the Hydra Z/LPS (and all the other DDC's I've tried) that I'm reluctant to give up any of that up.  All with a inexpensive Forza Split Twin Copper.
  
 Another Cerious Graphene PC is coming to try on my main system DAC to face off against the SR Ref X Active - if it doesn't best the SR - it'll go on the DU-U8 in the office system.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> I'm in one of those Audio Nirvana places right now.  My systems are just sounding so good!  Lately I have had zero motivation to try and improve them (this is very unusual for me).  Listening all day and much of the night to amazing sounds - going back to old recordings and listening to them like the first time.  Hearing new stuff - and the depth and imaging is just breathtaking.  Last night - Of Monsters and Men 'My Head Is An Animal' - never really liked this album - but last night it sounded really good.  Then The Police 'Reggatta da Blanc' - 'Bring on the Night' was jaw dropping (those drum strikes echoing from 6 ft deep behind the speakers out into the room!
> 
> Anyway I did try the Viablue with the Remedy/LPS on the main system - it was better then with the el cheapo spdif cable - but in the end prefered the sound without it.  Still the Remedy/LPS/Viablue is working very well on my office system with the DAC60.
> 
> ...




Don't bother with the light speed twin cable. I've tested that before with extensive abx testing with my supra USB cable and the everyone who joined for the test could not pick the two apart. Buy a supra cable and save yourself a grip of cash. The most important thing about USB is keeping it as close to 90ohm spec as possible. That way the PHY IC chip works the least which translates to less noise in the audible signal. LHLabs at least gives you a readout sheet to show its +\- 2ohm from the 90hm spec rating that USB requires. Supra cables are just as accurate. Yet 50 use seems more reasonable to me.  the active synergistic cable is hyped as the little plug thingies just change the ohm spec to change the sound signature slightly by adding more noise or taking it away. A lot of money to spend for a gimmicky thing. My opinion  
Clean power,l and an excellent source would go farther to improve sound. Example. A Paul Hynes Pr3 linear power supply that powers a Paul pang v3 ocxo pcie USB 3.0 card + proper cable like supra USB = sublime perfection. 
Again, my opinion. Based on some facts of course. Signal integrity is key with USB. Or SI. More or less ohms from the 90ohm spec will create slight different sound signatures. But the least noise occurs at 90ohm.
Paul Hynes pr3 is about he best power supply you could ask for, it's possible that some battery supplies "might" be better. But not too likely.
Here is a quote from Hynes 
"The PR3 topology regulator circuit I use in the SR7 power supplies is my own proprietary discrete component design which I have optimised for ultra low noise, very wide operating bandwidth and exceptional transient response and settling time. The PR3 is better than 4 dB quieter than the TPS7A4700 from DC to 100 KHz and the supply line rejection is > 4 dB better from DC to 1 KHz and up to 20 dB better from 1 KHz to 100 KHz. PR3 transient response and settling time is much better than the TPS."

So the route I'm going is clear. I would love to hear what you think of the cables you plan to get. Honestly I would rather spend money on components that have a better ROI. Like the ppav3 ocxo and Hynes pr3.
But maybe you already are running one, I can't recal with all the high tech stuff you are getting lately. It's always fun to read your posts to see what component you are trying next.
It surely is exciting to tweak! I know the feeling all too well.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> Don't bother with the light speed twin cable. I've tested that before with extensive abx testing with my supra USB cable and the everyone who joined for the test could not pick the two apart. Buy a supra cable and save yourself a grip of cash. The most important thing about USB is keeping it as close to 90ohm spec as possible. That way the PHY IC chip works the least which translates to less noise in the audible signal. LHLabs at least gives you a readout sheet to show its +\- 2ohm from the 90hm spec rating that USB requires. Supra cables are just as accurate. Yet 50 use seems more reasonable to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Steve Nugent at Empirical is a huge Paul Haynes fan.  How much is his Pr3.  Uptone makes a nice one the JS-2 but it's getting into silly money $925.  Exploring a LPS for a new PC server project Linux based ( I know Win Server2012 is the bomb - but no native USB 2.0 Audio support rules out this $600 OS for me).
  
 I guess I could try a full blown OR5 for $2700.  Paul Haynes reg SPDIF, Turbo Clock, Dynamo PS, BNC, etc...  But from what I heard at a friend's house - that may be only a marginal improvement for a whole lot of dash, over the DU-U8/Cerious Graphene.
  
 The PP RedII USB cable is highly rated and 'reasonably' priced, may give that one a go. 
  
 Since the USB signal is not just 1's and 0's but analog - I think it's more then just impedance matching (I have a Supra and like it), RFI/EMI, and related things going on.  Every USB cable I have tried has sounded different.  I imagine that could be ascribed to just impedance variations - but I thought that's what the Regen was supposed to solve?  And they still sound different with the Regen and to confused the engineering oriented theories further - the Regen degraded the sound in my main system - with a verity of USB cables!  But improved the SQ significantly in my office system - both PC servers virtually identical!
  
  
 I think there is a lot of other things happening that effects the sound - not just expectation bias.  Or why would my 'expectation' of the Regen improving the SQ in my main system, after working so well in my office system fail miserably?  Could my subconscious want an improvement in one place but not in the other?  And I had two Regens  - so had to go through the hassle of selling one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 It may just come down to synergies and preferences.  Over Thanksgiving my two sons were over and commenting SQ has improved from the last time we did a Jack Single Barrel musical demo session (and it got loud!).  They heard the improvement immediately, I never mentioned the gear changes, that just bores them to tears.
 The bass drops on some of the EDM stuff was amazing - never had the Maggies move air like that before.  Never hard, etched, or harsh - pure clean and transparent - to very high volume.  Drake's 'Hotline Bling' and Calvin Harris 'Who Do You Love' - rocking the house.
  
 Well anyway I may try a PP USB card at some point.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## phile1

Hi rb2013,
 Sorry to disturb you if you are flying at 10000ft thanks to your nice gear & music
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Your DU-U8 is the version 3 ?
 you got it thee ? => http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Breeze-audio-Best-pure-USB-decoder-XMOS-U8-DU-U8-DAC-Asynchronous-USB-coax-fiber-XMOS/32499738639.html
 Thanks !


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Steve Nugent at Empirical is a huge Paul Haynes fan.  How much is his Pr3.  Uptone makes a nice one the JS-2 but it's getting into silly money $925.  Exploring a LPS for a new PC server project Linux based ( I know Win Server2012 is the bomb - but no native USB 2.0 Audio support rules out this $600 OS for me).
> 
> I guess I could try a full blown OR5 for $2700.  Paul Haynes reg SPDIF, Turbo Clock, Dynamo PS, BNC, etc...  But from what I heard at a friend's house - that may be only a marginal improvement for a whole lot of dash, over the DU-U8/Cerious Graphene.
> 
> ...


 
 You live near me, and i'm about to order a Paul Hynes SR3 5V system that he is building specificaly for the Paul Pang V3 OCXO PCIE usb3.0 card. I could ask him to build two and see if we can get a discount. if you want. Let me know. We can save on shipping since they are coming from the UK. Hynes is the best PSU builder. I also have a Teddy Pardo that i'll be comparing it to. If you want more details about the SR3 5V then PM me. Also we get a discount from Paul Pang for being Headfi members. FYI.  
 I live in everett and will be at the meet this weekend. 
  
 FYI, i'm selling my Regen Amber, it doesn't improve sound quality on my system. It would if I had more issues with the SI of my usb, and dirty power. But I have a corsair AX1200 with super low ripple! nearly Linear levels, let alone many filters from Eifidelity. But i'm running a dedicated LPS for the PPA3. So the regen amber actually did nothing, if anything made things worse. I am NOT surprised they did that in your system. I don't if you have measured the power noise from your office and your home, i'd guess they vary.
  
 And the USB cable, if properly shielded, and properly built to be 90ohm spec... thats the main importance. The regen makes it LESS of a problem, but it introduces new issues to certain systems. Such as the reclocking, is it needed? NO, not for highly sensitive setups. and power filtering, likely not! are you using an ultra low noise LPS with the regen? or the dreaded SMPS it comes with? Anyhow, the SR3 5V is 4 times more quiet than a typical battery PSU!   And the Paul Pang V3 OCXO is highly sensitive to power quality, low noise will alow the femto clock to operate at its rated specs. Dirty power = sub par performance.  Anyhow, you know most of this stuff i'm sure.
  
 you say USB is analog, do you have some sources that explain why you say this? It transports analog voltages, but digital data. From everything i've read...USB is a digital cable. there is rarely ever an issue transporting 1s and 0s...the data is always there, but the other issues is the power transport, which is a terrible way to power devices, better to design a cable without power transport. Too many variables otherwise. The ohm spec causes serious issues with noise by effecting Signal Integrity. The USB PHY IC is a noisy bugger, and the receiving end is where that noise happens, its generally from the USB to i2s where that happens ( from what I understand)  You probably have already read this article, but please do if you havent. " http://www.audiostream.com/content/uptone-audio-usb-regen "
  
  
 QUOTED from the link above...
 "PHY: PHY is an abbreviation for the electronics that interface to the physical bus. PHYs exist in most every type of data interface (Ethernet, FireWire, optical, etc.) A USB PHY serves two primary functions: to convert the analog voltages used on the Data-plus and Data-minus wires into a digital format normal logic can understand, and to convert the high speed one-bit-at-a-time serial data stream into a slower parallel set of wires to be sent to the USB protocol engine (XMOS processor, FPGA with USB core, etc.). The lowly PHY chip is actually a tremendously noisy and complicated device containing multiple PLLs and clocking at various phases—and there is no such thing as an optimized-for-audio PHY. The PHY part of a DAC’s USB is highly susceptible to the condition of the USB signal, its "Signal Integrity" (SI).
SIGNAL INTEGRITY: A high-speed USB signal runs at 480 mega bits per second, which is fairly high. SI is comprised of the rise/fall times of the signal edges, amplitude of the signal, noise sitting on top of the signal and jitter of the edges. Variations in any or all of these can decrease the SI. The computer determines this initially, and then it can get significantly degraded by running through cables and connectors.
The decrease in SI can be so large that it becomes difficult for the PHY to determine the actual bits. Thus the PHY contains several methods used to pre-process the analog signals in order to make it easier to determine the bits. When the SI is very good, the PHY can turn off the pre-processing steps and easily determine the bits. As the SI degrades the PHY turns on different parts of the pre-processing as needed. Each of these steps takes a fair amount of power to operate, thus creating noise on the power and ground planes. The more processing the PHY needs to use to determine the bits, the more noise is generated. Thus part of the packet noise is directly related to the signal integrity of the incoming signal. The higher the SI, the lower the noise.
PACKET NOISE: In a DAC the data packets coming in on the USB bus are not continuous—there is significant time in-between each packet. Thus the processing of these packets produces noise on the power supply and ground plane that come in bursts, and we refer to this as "packet noise". Since the rate of USB packets is 8KHz there are strong components of this noise in the audio band. This noise can cause jitter in clock oscillators, re-clocking flops, and DAC chips. It can also go directly into noise on the output of DAC chips.
Part of this noise is determined by the USB protocol engine (chip after the PHY) and is going to be constant for a particular DAC.
POWER DELIVERY NETWORK (PDN): In order for a power supply to properly respond to instantaneous load variations, it needs to have a low impedance over a very broad range of frequencies. For digital audio this is from low Hz to hundreds of Mhz range. The entire supply flow from mains AC to board layout and capacitors on the board play a role in getting this right. The process of frequency optimizing the PDN is something that is done in expensive high-speed network equipment, but is almost never done in consumer products, especially audio equipment. (And our experience with the REGEN points to this being quite important for digital audio.)

 Read more at http://www.audiostream.com/content/uptone-audio-usb-regen#1gkejri4LTARFS1q.99"
  
  
 anyhow, the usb regen is good for some systems. Mine is up for sale...good reason. my system is highly sensitive and tuned well. I would be interested to get together sometime and go over some of our gear. do some abx testing etc. Just a thought, PM me if interested.
  
 and consider the Hynes SR3 5V and PPA3 OCXO.
 I'm going to order the SR3 in about a week, and with the fine silver cable. It's the top tier power supply mated to the top tier USB source. Doesnt' get much better of a source to send to your top tier modded DU-U8.
  
 personally, I'd pass on the OR5, as it's magic tends to happen once it has a Hynes powering it. Thats what I understand from the few who have owned them...with and without the Hynes.
  
 -T


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> You live near me, and i'm about to order a Paul Hynes SR3 5V system that he is building specificaly for the Paul Pang V3 OCXO PCIE usb3.0 card. I could ask him to build two and see if we can get a discount. if you want. Let me know. We can save on shipping since they are coming from the UK. Hynes is the best PSU builder. I also have a Teddy Pardo that i'll be comparing it to. If you want more details about the SR3 5V then PM me. Also we get a discount from Paul Pang for being Headfi members. FYI.
> I live in everett and will be at the meet this weekend.
> 
> FYI, i'm selling my Regen Amber, it doesn't improve sound quality on my system. It would if I had more issues with the SI of my usb, and dirty power. But I have a corsair AX1200 with super low ripple! nearly Linear levels, let alone many filters from Eifidelity. But i'm running a dedicated LPS for the PPA3. So the regen amber actually did nothing, if anything made things worse. I am NOT surprised they did that in your system. I don't if you have measured the power noise from your office and your home, i'd guess they vary.
> ...


 

 Thanks for the offer on the SR3 5V - I'm sure it's a fantastic LPS.  Too bad the DU-U8 is AC powered - or I'd go for it - the price around $450 is reasonable.
  
 I'm not sure I'm ready to go with the PPA3 OCXO and the SR3 right now - that's around $900.  A bit more then my budget allows, especially at retail prices, I usually like to get stuff used, then if it's not a match not too painful to let go.  Especially cables - they seem to be pretty easy to sell.  I already have sunk hundreds into the Gustard, Melodious and Breeze experiments.  It has paid off though in discovering the DU-U8 at pretty reasonable prices.  The Hydra Z I bought used at a great price and sold for the same price.  The extra Regen sold at the same price as I paid - so no harm there.  Now with my thinking of going to a Linux box - or even a Rasberry Pi2 - the PPA would be a big loss.  He seems to launch new stuff quite frequently - diminishing the value of older gear.
  
  I had a bad experience with the SotM USB card - a nightmare of intermittent issues. Sometimes my server would recognize the card, sometimes not - just a frustrating hit or miss.  Already Jplay and these Thesycon XMOS drivers are a headache, when pushed hard (super low latency),  I'm no computer geek - I hate debugging this crappy MS bloatware.  I have a new Win 8.1 laptop for work - an absolute nightmare.  I know half a dozen people will say they have it and 10 and it works 'perfectly'  'with never an issue'.  Been doing WINTEL for 20 yrs - and there is ALWAYS issues.  With enough hair-pulling tweeking when you get it working stable it's a blessing.  Of course then a bunch of pushed updates come and it all goes haywire 
  
 It'll be Apple or Linux very soon for me.
  
 Good stuff on the PHY - I've read (and posted here awhile ago) a bunch of Uptone's Chief Engineer - John Swenson whitepapers on PHY, 'Packet Noise', and USB impedance issues - and how the Regen was supposed to solve all that. All these theories sound good on paper - sometimes good in practice.


----------



## Joeybgood

I was hoping someone can answer this for me. I would like to replace the fuse in my U12 with an Audiophile fuse. Can someone tell what fuse the U12 uses? Much tks


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Thanks for the offer on the SR3 5V - I'm sure it's a fantastic LPS.  Too bad the DU-U8 is AC powered - or I'd go for it - the price around $450 is reasonable.
> 
> I'm not sure I'm ready to go with the PPA3 OCXO and the SR3 right now - that's around $900.  A bit more then my budget allows, especially at retail prices, I usually like to get stuff used, then if it's not a match not too painful to let go.  Especially cables - they seem to be pretty easy to sell.  I already have sunk hundreds into the Gustard, Melodious and Breeze experiments.  It has paid off though in discovering the DU-U8 at pretty reasonable prices.  The Hydra Z I bought used at a great price and sold for the same price.  The extra Regen sold at the same price as I paid - so no harm there.  Now with my thinking of going to a Linux box - or even a Rasberry Pi2 - the PPA would be a big loss.  He seems to launch new stuff quite frequently - diminishing the value of older gear.
> 
> ...



and the PHY info is not a "theory" it's a real thing. SI or signal integrity is actually real. That's not some theory that is made up. You're partially correct in saying a USB cable is analog...but only with it's voltages. It also carries digital signals...The data is actually digital and 1 and 0's. so..... yea.  
I'm not sure why you commented on your DU-U8 as being AC powered, you'd be using the hynes to power the USB analog portion...the voltages part.  The digital portion just needs to be 90ohm spec. 
the regen doesn't "fix" these problems, it only helps make them better. but I don't expect them to put a hynes grade psu into a tiny box and sell it for 175bucks. Not a chance. 
 
i'm not going to comment on the rest of the stuff you mentioned. I'm just happy that you're happy with your gear now. SotM i will agree is a bunch of crap. Overpriced crap. 


I have picked up a ppa3 and Hynes psu for about 700usd for both after discounts. That's not bad considering the improvement they make. It's too bad people overlook such an important thing like the USB source. Onboard USB is terrible. Especially when powered by subpar smps like in pc's that are around 10-30mv ripple for the 5vusb. My corsair ax1200 does around 4-10mv (can't recal exactly) but that is considered good? Not even acceptable for goo USB sources like the femto level ocxo on the ppa3. Something like the Hynes is ideal as its 4 times quieter than most battery powered psu's and many many times more quiet than typical linear power supplies. I'm shocked why people use standard USB ports. The sound can only be so good when your USB source is so bad. It's a complicated source, it sends analog and digital signals. Ideal to be separated or properly shielded from each stream of analog or digital. The accuracy, timing and noise from a typical USB port is terrible compared to even the ppa2. 

@rb2013 Out of curiosity what USB card are you using now? In your home and office setup?
You mentioned the sotm card, and I agree that had issues, especially when it wasn't properly powered with a ultra low noise supply. The jcat was much better, and the Paul pang was a step up from there imho. I tried all of them and started with the eifidelity pcie USB card. Which is better than a typical onboard USB card. If you are on a budget, at least consider that card and power it on something like the X1/x2 teradak. That's dirt cheap stuff, but not really up to spec compared to the gear/cables you are running and/or how it's modded.


----------



## phile1

rb2013 said:


> I have been just a bit curious about trying some new USB cables in the main system - so doing a bit of research there.  But the serious contenders are all so darn expensive.
> Audio Quest Diamond USB
> WW Plat USB
> Synergistic Research USB SE Active
> ...


 
 Hi rb2013,
 regarding USB cables, you should try the Corning 3.Optical => http://www.amazon.com/Corning-Self-Powered-Peripherals-Receptacle-AOC-ACS2CVA010M20/dp/B00JOJRF6K
 optical, thus no shield issue vs EMI/RFI.
 I'm happy with it. Clearer sound.
 And length is not a issue anymore with this cable : thus you can have a distance computer/DAC up to 30m, that's as good as if computer & interface/DAC was at 1m.
 Rgds


----------



## rb2013

phile1 said:


> Hi rb2013,
> regarding USB cables, you should try the Corning 3.Optical => http://www.amazon.com/Corning-Self-Powered-Peripherals-Receptacle-AOC-ACS2CVA010M20/dp/B00JOJRF6K
> optical, thus no shield issue vs EMI/RFI.
> I'm happy with it. Clearer sound.
> ...


 

 Hi,
  
 Much has been written on CA (this was all the rage earlier this year there) about this Corning3 Optical cable - with some reporting good sound and others reporting major problems with the cable.  I get the theoretical 'optical isolation' deal - but that is just part of the equation.  Most DAC's, DDC, etc.. have cheap electro-optical converters that run jitter level 10X to 100X spdif coax.  Therein lies the problem - the communications indusrty (and defense) have very good electo-optical converters that are incredibly expensive.
  
 From Alex at Uptone:
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/corning-optical-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-cable-experiences-23437/


> *Superdad*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The secret sauce according to the Uptone folks was not the Corning fiber - but the use of a isolating reclocking hub - which the Regen was designed to the Uber USB Hub reclocker.  Allowing the use of any USB cable including split power/data versions.  So with the Regen/LPS in place the Corning 'advantage' is sorta mute, with the electo-optical converter in the chain as a disadvantage.  But happy it's working in your system - it is better then the less expensive solutions like the Belkin Gold.


> *sig8*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Speaking of split USB cables this one looks interesting for $200:
 The Light Harmonic Light Speed 2G
 http://marketplace.lhlabs.com/collections/cables/products/lightspeed-2g-usb-cable


----------



## rb2013

Just a reminder to those new here - some of the DDCs like the Gustard U12 need a USB cable power leg active for a handshake.  The U12 handshake can be disabled, as has been posted here many times - but it's not an easy fix.
  
 Some like the Melodious MX-U8 and Breeze Audio DU-U8 do not need any USB power.  So if you have a DAC (like the Geek) that requires a USB power handshake - the use of a DDC like the DU-U8 is a neat solution. 
  
 The Hydra Z did not require any handshake.
  
 So a split cable (one with two separate USB A leads - one for data and one for power) are optimal - the power leg can remain 'unpowered' - in other words not plugged into the computer.  Since the power lead is never used there is no power corruption or interference - at the USB PC connection.  Just the data line -  this eliminates any and all theoretical and actual PC power corruption (other then what slips into the USB data feed on the MB).


----------



## rb2013

I pulled the trigger on the LH Labs LightSpeed 2G after rereading the 6Moons review of the original LightSpeed (a much more expensive cable and better as well).  The current version of the original LS is called the 10G.
  
 From what i have read the 2G compares favoribly to the 10G (the single 1G not so much).
  
 Some worthwhile stuff in the 6moons review on USB audio in general:
  


> Included with each Lightspeed cable is a test report showing a variety of measurements including the aforementioned eye pattern. It would appear that based on its physical design and test measurements the Lightspeed has miniscule *deterministic jitter* as well as excellent rejection of common-mode and EM noise. I asked Larry Ho to provide greater insight on the Lightspeed’s measurements including the eye pattern measurement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The 2G has to quote the LH Labs website "A two meter ultra-wide bandwidth USB-A to USB-B cable (over four times the USB 2.0 Spec)."  So not 20X but 4x the USB 2.0 Audio requirement.  
  


> "The 3rd factor is that the better USB cable, the less work the USB receiver IC does. The less work it must do, the more accurate the timing of each bit is which gets sent out. What does the USB receiver IC (PHY) do? Quite a lot. To avoid getting too technical, basically it needs to encode and decode the package by USB protocol in 480Mbps and translate that to the UTMI+ or ULPI interface. It consists of clock recovery and PLL as well as the control logic and it is much harder than people think. This complexity brings up a very important thing - the interface jitter for ULPI gets inherited by the actual music samples."


 


> "The 4th factor to consider is that Ii the USB 2.0 Audio Class standard, asynchronous transmission means real-time transmission. There is some basic error correction but there is _no_ guarantee that the signal will be received bit-perfect as there is no error-then-resend mechanism. Transferring music samples is _not_ like sending a file to your USB hard drive or USB printer. There is no retry. If a music sample is distorted, there will be errors reading the transitions from 0 to 1 or 1 to 0.


 
  
 The bottomline:


> "The upshot is that maintaining data integrity is more important for a USB cable that's used for music than for a hard drive, keyboard, mouse or printer. USB really is one vast umbrella that covers almost every peripheral. This sadly confuses people to think that each USB cable is the same. Sorry but in truth it's not. That'd be just like thinking one could use an analog RCA cable to connect digital SPDIF signal. It might work but definitely won't provide optimal performance!"


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> I pulled the trigger on the LH Labs LightSpeed 2G after rereading the 6Moons review of the original LightSpeed (a much more expensive cable and better as well).  The current version of the original LS is called the 10G.
> 
> From what i have read the 2G compares favoribly to the 10G (the single 1G not so much).
> 
> Some worthwhile stuff in the 6moons review on USB audio in general:




The 10g is the cable we abx tested vs the supra cable and not one person could distinctly tell either cable apart except for the basic cheap 1dollar cable with no shielding and basic cheap wire. That was spotted about 75-80% of the time or more. The 10g and supra were equal 50/50 chance, they both sounded the same. Kinda interesting that a 50 dollar cable performs as well as a 1000usd cable. I looked at the 2G dual head cable, at least that one is priced a little better. 

Are you going to the local audio meet on Sunday? It will be the biggest one this year?! Tons of people. Hopefully you can make it out there. I believe it's in bothell at Anderson school. There is a headfi thread about it. Would like for you to come out with some gear or just some cans.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> The 10g is the cable we abx tested vs the supra cable and not one person could distinctly tell either cable apart except for the basic cheap 1dollar cable with no shielding and basic cheap wire. That was spotted about 75-80% of the time or more. The 10g and supra were equal 50/50 chance, they both sounded the same. Kinda interested that a 50 dollar cable performs as well as a 1000usd cable.


 

 That is interesting - there are countless rave reviews on the LS over on the CA USB cable forum.
  
 I liked this guy 'reverendo' he compared (using the Cable Company loan cable loan service) the highly rated WireWorld Platinum, the AQ Diamond, The SR USB SE, the LH LightSpeed, Mapleshade Clearlink Plus, Purist Ultimate USB, and a bunch of other USB cables.
 All done over several months time.
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-cable-comparisons-14397/
  
 Here was his comments later in the process comparing the SR SE vs the AQ Diamond vs WW Plat


> Today I was able to compare the cables that I have been wanting to listen to side-by-side for quite a while: the Synergistic Research Active SE​USBlink, the WireWorld Platinum and AudioQuest Diamond.​​ First I had to find out which of​_Enigma Tuning Bullets​_(gotta laugh at these names​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Then even later as the Purist Ultimate unseated the AQ Diamond he comapared the LH LS vs the Ultimate :


> Purist Ultimate USB x Light Harmonic Lightspeed​
> 
> > I'll cut to the chase:
> >
> ...


 
 I think in the end he kept the LH LightSpeed.  This review was in 2013 - you can now find LS and 10G's used in the $500 range (one listed in the Headfi classifieds currently).  Still to rich for my blood.  But for $200 I'm willing to try the 2G.
  
 One note is looks like all these cables need 200-300 hrs burin to sound best - I think the MapleShade even longer - and at $135 for 1 meter a bargain.


----------



## rb2013

It would be nice if the Supra was available in a split (data and power) configuration like the Forza Twinn Copper and the LightSpeed 2G.  For the major benefits I posted above when using with the USB bridges that don't require a USB power handshake like the Melodius and Breeze.
  
 Was the 10G you tested vs the Supra the single wire version?
  
 PS On the meet  - no way - wifey would go ballistic!  I'll be at the mall lugging shopping bags - why I need audio therapy (and some Jack Single Barrel) - 30yrs of marriage and I've surrendered.


----------



## robertsong

There is also the Anticables USB cable.
  
 http://anticables.com/interconnects/digital-rca-interconnects#!/Level-3-1-Reference-Series-USB-Digital-Interconnect/p/39552504/category=3682629
  
 I'm super happy with my Ref 4.2 spdif cable from Anticables with the ETI "Pure" plugs. I'm very tempted to try there USB cable too. You can order it with or without the +5V line. Apparently there are some claims it can hold it's own against the LH cables. It's priced cheaper than Curious cables.


----------



## Triplefun

Probably in a different league, but has anyone tried these cables from China ..
 I find they are an excellent compromise between entry level USB cables and the more high end expensive cables ..
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Qed-signature-edition-decoder-dac-usb-data-cable-line-a-b/32416012114.html


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> There is also the Anticables USB cable.
> 
> http://anticables.com/interconnects/digital-rca-interconnects#!/Level-3-1-Reference-Series-USB-Digital-Interconnect/p/39552504/category=3682629
> 
> I'm super happy with my Ref 4.2 spdif cable from Anticables with the ETI "Pure" plugs. I'm very tempted to try there USB cable too. You can order it with or without the +5V line. Apparently there are some claims it can hold it's own against the LH cables. It's priced cheaper than Curious cables.


 

 Well have not much said about those - I think they do a brisk business on Audiogon and have for some time - mostly by favorable word of mouth.  At $190 for the 1M USB not exceedingly cheap in comparison to the $135 Mapleshade Clearlink Plus.
  
 Being able to get it without the 5V line is a plus.


----------



## rb2013

triplefun said:


> Probably in a different league, but has anyone tried these cables from China ..
> I find they are an excellent compromise between entry level USB cables and the more high end expensive cables ..
> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Qed-signature-edition-decoder-dac-usb-data-cable-line-a-b/32416012114.html


 

 At the low end the Belkin Gold Hi Speed - hard to beat for $29
  
 http://www.belkin.com/us/F3U133-GLD/p/P-F3U133-GLD/
  
 TAS 2013 Award Winner
  
 http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/2013-tas-editors-choice-awards-digital-interconnects/


----------



## GCTD

Has anyone recommended the Pangea Audio USB cable yet?


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> It would be nice if the Supra was available in a split (data and power) configuration like the Forza Twinn Copper and the LightSpeed 2G.  For the major benefits I posted above when using with the USB bridges that don't require a USB power handshake like the Melodius and Breeze.
> 
> Was the 10G you tested vs the Supra the single wire version?
> 
> PS On the meet  - no way - wifey would go ballistic!  I'll be at the mall lugging shopping bags - why I need audio therapy (and some Jack Single Barrel) - 30yrs of marriage and I've surrendered.





The 10G was the split cable. 
We used a pulse xfi infinity Dac with lps4.
Tested the 10G split cable, supra 1.5meter single cable, and a basic 1dollar super xrappy USB generic. 
Extensive testing revealed the 10G was an overpriced cable. I'm not surprised they are selling for 500 everywhere. Hard to recover from something like that, and not feel guilty reselling it too.


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> I have yet to hear the PUC2 Lite - but the reviews are excellent.  I would also rank at the top the Hydra Z and the Breeze Audio DU-U8.
> 
> http://www.stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/
> 
> ...


 
 have you tried and compared the DXIO Pro3A to a Tamly or Berkeley ?


----------



## rb2013

gctd said:


> Has anyone recommended the Pangea Audio USB cable yet?


 

 There were some folks asking about this cable over on that CA thread - not much in the way of positive feedback.  But I love those catalogs that AA sends!


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> The 10G was the split cable.
> We used a pulse xfi infinity Dac with lps4.
> Tested the 10G split cable, supra 1.5meter single cable, and a basic 1dollar super xrappy USB generic.
> Extensive testing revealed the 10G was an overpriced cable. I'm not surprised they are selling for 500 everywhere. Hard to recover from something like that, and not feel guilty reselling it too.


 
 Well I would love to try one of the split cables - I think LH labs ran a 'special' sale on them awhile back - they were selling fro like $600 for the .8 meter.  I'll give the 2g a go and see how it compares in my systems. And how it pairs with the DU-U8.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> have you tried and compared the DXIO Pro3A to a Tamly or Berkeley ?


 

 No I don't have a Tanly or the Berkeley - but I have compared the DU-U8 to the Hydra Z.  The Hydra Z and the Tanly have similar designs - FPGA , CCHD-957 clocks - but a better PS with the R-Core LPS TeraDak on the Z.  The DU-U8 (Zbing transformer and before the Cerious Graphene) - crushed the Z.  The DU-U8 really excells at bass extension and definition - something I really enjoy.  The Du-U8 with the Talema and Cerious Graphene - is in a whole other league.
  
 The Berkeley and the OR5 have been compared to each other  - I believe the Berkeley is better - but that's just a guess.  And the DU-U8 did very well in a head to head with the OR5.  That was before the addition of the Cerious Graphene power cord - that has really made an improvement in the DU-U8 sound.  Greater detail and even smoother now - even at extreme vol levels on the very picky Maggies.  The Cerious is fully broken in and sounding just great.
  
 So I'm in a happy place right now - kinda focusing on maxing the DU-U8 out.  Will get a DXIO Pro3A at some point and a set of CCHD-957 clocks to send to Breeze for a go at a 'custom' DU-U8.   That'll come first.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## DACLadder

rb2013 said:


> There were some folks asking about this cable over on that CA thread - not much in the way of positive feedback.  But I love those catalogs that AA sends!
> 
> Quote:Originally Posted by *GCTD* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> Has anyone recommended the Pangea Audio USB cable yet?


 
 I've use a 2m Pangea cable for several years.  No special reasons other than I have it and is well made for the cost.  I quit chasing USB cables after cleaning up the +5V feeding the USB cable with the JCAT USB board and external linear +5V power supply.  Due to the asynchronous nature of USB data transfer the claims of slightly lower jitter affecting sound quality is suspect.  But the cable has to be made well enough to transfer data without error and interference.  Clean USB power made the largest difference in sound quality on my system.


----------



## rb2013

dacladder said:


> I've use a 2m Pangea cable for several years.  No special reasons other than I have it and is well made for the cost.  I quit chasing USB cables after cleaning up the +5V feeding the USB cable with the JCAT USB board and external linear +5V power supply.  Due to the asynchronous nature of USB data transfer the claims of slightly lower jitter affecting sound quality is suspect.  But the cable has to be made well enough to transfer data without error and interference.  Clean USB power made the largest difference in sound quality on my system.


 

 Well since the DU-U8 doesn't use the +5V power and with the split cable the power line is not even connected it will be interesting to see if the LS 2g is better then the Forza Twin Copper Split.
  
 My music servers have ultra clean fanless PS's with ripple approaching a LPS, and a whole host of Elfidelity and SotM filters on each SATA drive and CPU fan for example.  So it's pretty clean right through the MB.  I also have the PC plugged into a common and differential mode AC power filter (Art Audio PB 4X4Pro) on a separate line from the DACs and DDCs (each with their own PB4X4Pro).
  
 Then of course the experiments with the LPS fed Regen - which did not help the sound on my main system - but is working great on the office system (along with a LPS fed Remedy).  So much for all the USB 'Packet noise' and impedance issues in theory. I just trust my ears and for me and my systems USB cables have made a major difference, as have power cables, IC's, Speaker cables, etc... 
  
 I think for a DAC or DDC that takes a 5V PC power feed the JCAT or PPA OXCO or SotM USB card is a worthwhile avenue.  Or you can use a split cable with the power leg to a 5VDC LPS like the TeraDak - completely eliminating the PC power to the DDC or DAC from the equation (also you can use a Li Ion battery like the XIAMOI).
  
 Pangea does look well made.


----------



## ccschua

Pangea looks like Taiwan OEM version of Furutech.
  
 still deciding over DXIO Pro3A vs DU-U8.
  
 USB cable, I am sold to 10G but not sure about 2G. I have tried audioquest Silver starlight, etc it helps a lot with good cable too, considering I am already using LPS with ultra low noise 0.9uV into PPA V3. I am curious with LT3042 vs the SR3.
  
 do u think with DU-U8 going for 957 will help improve the sound ?


----------



## ahendler

I have and use the 10G USB cable. It is very good.  If you want an inexpensive cable that is very close to the 10G try the Supra 2.0 high speed usb cable. Don't let its cheap price fool you. It is a great sounding cable
 Alan


----------



## Joeybgood

Quick question.. a bit confused.. I just picked up my U12. It is externally powered not USB bus powered. correct? my MB has a special DAC USB port  that I can disable the power to it.. so I did. Now my computer doesn't recognize the U12 . I'm guessing I need to enable the power to the USB again but... why? The whole purpose of having the ability to disable the USB bus power is to keep the connection even cleaner/quieter and if the DAC(or in this case USB converter) isn't bus powered then the power to it shouldn't be necessary. What am I missing here? Tks


----------



## GCTD

joeybgood said:


> Quick question.. a bit confused.. I just picked up my U12. It is externally powered not USB bus powered. correct? my MB has a special DAC USB port  that I can disable the power to it.. so I did. Now my computer doesn't recognize the U12 . I'm guessing I need to enable the power to the USB again but... why? The whole purpose of having the ability to disable the USB bus power is to keep the connection even cleaner/quieter and if the DAC(or in this case USB converter) isn't bus powered then the power to it shouldn't be necessary. What am I missing here? Tks




If you're ocd about this particular aspect maybe consider AudioQuest's USB Jitterbug or Schiit's Wyrd USB Decrapifier.


----------



## Joeybgood

gctd said:


> If you're ocd about this particular aspect maybe consider AudioQuest's USB Jitterbug or Schiit's Wyrd USB Decrapifier.


 
 I have the Regen on order so I guess problem solved once it arrives. Backordered.. tks


----------



## ahendler

There is a relay in the Gustard that requires an initial 5 volts to turn on.  If you are worried about the 5 volts get a regen from uptone audio. You go from your USB port on the computer over a USB cable to the Regen to the Gustard. The Regen can be powered by its wal wart or an external power supply. The Regen will make sure any 5 volts is clean from your computer This is what I do and it works well. You could also use an Audioquest Jitterbug at the output of your computer to clean things up.
 Alan


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> Pangea looks like Taiwan OEM version of Furutech.
> 
> still deciding over DXIO Pro3A vs DU-U8.
> 
> ...


 

 I can't see how having the Crystek CCHD-957 clocks vs the TXCO OEMs could hurt the sound - it would have to help it.  How much is a guess?
 The DXIO Pro3A would require me getting another TeraDak or a Paul Hynes LPS - another $150 to $300, as it takes a 5-6VDC clean power supply.
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/97-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html
  
 My 2 TeraDaks are now being used to power my Regen and Wyred for Sound Remedy in my office system.
  
 You have the 10G?  Lucky dog
  
 A kind member has offered to lend me his Curious USB cable!  This is getting rave reviews - see 6moons:
 http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/curious/1.html


----------



## rb2013

ahendler said:


> I have and use the 10G USB cable. It is very good.  If you want an inexpensive cable that is very close to the 10G try the Supra 2.0 high speed usb cable. Don't let its cheap price fool you. It is a great sounding cable
> Alan


 

 I have one and it is very good - replacing my Silnote Poseidon which replaced a Synergistic Research Tesla Apex.
  
 I like the Forza Twin Copper split better in my main system.  And prefer a data only or split cable as one of the advantages of the DU-U8 is it does not any USB power fed from the PC.


----------



## ahendler

joeybgood said:


> Quick question.. a bit confused.. I just picked up my U12. It is externally powered not USB bus powered. correct? my MB has a special DAC USB port  that I can disable the power to it.. so I did. Now my computer doesn't recognize the U12 . I'm guessing I need to enable the power to the USB again but... why? The whole purpose of having the ability to disable the USB bus power is to keep the connection even cleaner/quieter and if the DAC(or in this case USB converter) isn't bus powered then the power to it shouldn't be necessary. What am I missing here? Tks


 
 There is a relay in the Gustard that requires an initial 5 volts to turn on.  If you are worried about the 5 volts get a regen from uptone audio. You go from your USB port on the computer over a USB cable to the Regen to the Gustard. The Regen can be powered by its wal wart or an external power supply. The Regen will make sure any 5 volts is clean from your computer This is what I do and it works well. You could also use an Audioquest Jitterbug at the output of your computer to clean things up.
 Alan


----------



## rb2013

joeybgood said:


> Quick question.. a bit confused.. I just picked up my U12. It is externally powered not USB bus powered. correct? my MB has a special DAC USB port  that I can disable the power to it.. so I did. Now my computer doesn't recognize the U12 . I'm guessing I need to enable the power to the USB again but... why? The whole purpose of having the ability to disable the USB bus power is to keep the connection even cleaner/quieter and if the DAC(or in this case USB converter) isn't bus powered then the power to it shouldn't be necessary. What am I missing here? Tks


 

 The U12 like some DAC's and DDC's requires a USB power handshake to activate the relay inside.  It can be bypassed - but it's not an easy mod.  So although it does use PC USB power it is connected to the unit.
  
 The Melodious, Hydra Z and the Breeze DU-U8 need absolutely no PC USB power.


----------



## rb2013

gctd said:


> If you're ocd about this particular aspect maybe consider AudioQuest's USB Jitterbug or Schiit's Wyrd USB Decrapifier.


 
 That would help somewhat - I use AQ Jitterbug on both my systems to good effect.  Really  JCAT, PPA or SotM USB card is what would be needed - or a different DDC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


joeybgood said:


> I have the Regen on order so I guess problem solved once it arrives. Backordered.. tks


 
 They have been running a long wait list - I have the Regen in one system - it helped a lot.  But funny in my main system is hurt the sound - it was to bright with the Regen, adding a hint of edge to the sound.  The DU-U8 was better without.   So I sold the second one.  Note the Regen needs very clean power - I have tried a Li Ion battery and two linear power supplies.  So far the TeraDak R-Core LPS DC-30W is the very best feeding the Regen so far - the included SMPS wall wart is terrible (as even Uptone admits).
  
 Good luck!


----------



## rb2013

Don't know if everyone saw this - Melodious is coming out with a new unit that uses the double regulation like the Breeze.  Have not heard it.
  
 From Alex's Melodious Mod thread:
  


> [img]http://cdn.head-fi.org/5/59/100x100px-LS-59876906_4699N_Phil_AUT41264.jpeg[/img]
> 
> hgpsemaj
> 
> ...


----------



## ahendler

rb2013 said:


> Don't know if everyone saw this - Melodious is coming out with a new unit that uses the double regulation like the Breeze.  Have not heard it.
> 
> From Alex's Melodious Mod thread:


 
 I had just ordered the old one at the original price and got an e-mail telling me the old one was not being made anymore but
 they would send me the new model and honor the original price. So I got a new one coming
 Alan


----------



## robertsong

Bob, when are you going to start that separate Breeze DU-U8 thread? LOL


----------



## rb2013

ahendler said:


> I had just ordered the old one at the original price and got an e-mail telling me the old one was not being made anymore but
> they would send me the new model and honor the original price. So I got a new one coming
> Alan


 
 Great - report what you hear!  I see that they don't use a heat sink on the XMOS processor like Breeze does.
  


robertsong said:


> Bob, when are you going to start that separate Breeze DU-U8 thread? LOL


 
 Soon - I want to kind put it up as a summary of these almost 3000 posts - so in essence a compendium.  That's taking sometime. And I'm just having too much fun listening to the great sounds each night.
  
 I also want to include in it a little summary of each of the DDC's I have had so far.  I want it to be as complete a resource as my 6922 Tube review.  Maybe over the Holidays family stuff allowing.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## PWGuy

rb2013 said:


> Great - report what you hear!  I see that they don't use a heat sink on the XMOS processor like Breeze does.
> 
> Soon - I want to kind put it up as a summary of these almost 3000 posts - so in essence a compendium.  That's taking sometime. And I'm just having too much fun listening to the great sounds each night.
> 
> ...




Excellent! Looking forward to subscribing to it !


----------



## phile1

rb2013 said:


> ...the DU-U8 did very well in a head to head with the OR5.  That was before the addition of the Cerious Graphene power cord - that has really made an improvement in the DU-U8 sound.  Greater detail and even smoother now - even at extreme vol levels on the very picky Maggies.  The Cerious is fully broken in and sounding just great.


 
 Hi rb2013,
 the Cerious Graphene power cord seems to be efficient, but the Cerious price is seriously high !
 Regarding "efficiency" of a power cord, is this related to current and how clean it is ? Why not using the power cord provided by Breeze and adding a filter, like a Schaffner ?
 Schaffner price is 25USD av..
 If the Breeze is senstive to the power cord, maybe its power supply is sensitive to the current & how clean it is. Thus maybe, a Schaffner could do the job of the Cerious for 25USD instead of 20times that price.
 Right / wrong ? that's just an idea.


----------



## rb2013

phile1 said:


> Hi rb2013,
> the Cerious Graphene power cord seems to be efficient, but the Cerious price is seriously high !
> Regarding "efficiency" of a power cord, is this related to current and how clean it is ? Why not using the power cord provided by Breeze and adding a filter, like a Schaffner ?
> Schaffner price is 25USD av..
> ...


 

 Well for me $250 for the Cerious Graphene is reasonable.  If it makes a significant improvement in performance - as it has in spades. Funny I had 'invested' $180 for a Regen and other $150 for a LPS for it - and the sound became worse!  This was my second Regen as the first made a nice improvement in my office system.  So it's about sound vs cost for me. I sold the second Regen and used the money to get the Cerious Graphene.
  
 I sold the Hydra Z for $600 and it took a $150 LPS TeraDak - and replaced it with the $150 DU-U8 - with a major sonic improvement.  And that was before the Cerious.  With the Cerious another significant leap in performance.  So net net - I'm ahead by $350 over the Z/LPS and with much better sound.
  
 I don't think what the Cerious Graphene is doing is just a matter of 'efficiency' - many factors come into play such as variable inductance, impedance (the lower the better), EMI/RFI shielding, capacitance, eddy wave reflections from the conductor surface and dielectric, etc...  Constructing a great power chord is harder then it looks.
  
 As for the Schaffner - that is just a Balun in a small metal housing.  It acts as a common mode AC power filter - I went one better - using a $80 Art Audio PB4X4Pro which is both a common mode and differential mode C filter (also a surge protector).  So that base is covered in spades.
  
 Before the Cerious I was using a nice silver power cord with very nice rhodium plated connectors.  The stock cable is just a $2 generic Chinese chord.  The DU-U8 sounded better with this silver/rhodium cord plugged into the PB4X4Pro.
 The cable was something like this:
 https://app.audiogon.com/listings/ac-cables-6-black-shadow-power-cord-braided-2-meter-silver-rhodium-cryo-2015-12-05-power-34207-college-plaza-fl
  
 The Cerious replacing the silver/rhodium cord was the major improvement I posted about.
  
 Schaffner:

  
 Art Audio Pro PB4X4 PRO



> All PRO SERIES models have an additional internal discrete module called APF™ (Advanced Power Filtering) which filters out digital and dimmer hash as well as any high frequency noise that is above the audio range. Some off-the-shelf add-on modules saturate and lose their filtering effectiveness as the load increases, but by using a high power discrete design we were able to create a filter that stays effective over the full operating range.
> By using both Common Mode and Differential Mode topologies in series for the filter design we are able to block virtually all of the unwanted noise that is between the AC line and ground, and also the two sides of the AC line. This has the additional benefit of reducing ground loop problems in your system. High frequency noise currents in particular are highly attenuated in both directions so that any line noise that could be generated by one of your components is not allowed to get back into your main A.C. wiring so if you use a number of PRO SERIES Power Conditioners in your setup, you can distribute and isolate the noisy components from the sensitive components in your system. Additionally, any signals above 10kHz are filtered from the line with over 40dB of attenuation above 100kHz and beyond.
> Every PRO SERIES power conditioner is designed with a power capacity of 1800 Watts, surge/spike protection, APF with EMI & RFI filtering, front-mounted unswitched power outlet and an adjustable rear-mounted gooseneck light source for bright illumination behind the rack. The spacing and alignment of the rear outlets to accommodate various size power plugs and AC adapters.


 
 I have 4 of these currently - using separate ones on each of my DU-U8's (including the ReGen/Remedy in the office system) and a separate unit for each DAC. 
  
 I also use a thick solid copper shield around each components AC plug - you can get these at Lowes for around $10 each:


----------



## panhead

rb2013 said:


> I can't see how having the Crystek CCHD-957 clocks vs the TXCO OEMs could hurt the sound - it would have to help it.  How much is a guess?
> The DXIO Pro3A would require me getting another TeraDak or a Paul Hynes LPS - another $150 to $300, as it takes a 5-6VDC clean power supply.
> 
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/97-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html
> ...


 
 Im using the Curious Regen usb link.   Made a good improvement from the Pangea and the Link provided by Uptone audio.    BTW  many many thanks for suggesting the power cord for the Breeze.
  
 I didnt order the one you suggested but instead had  Blacksands cable in the closet.    WOW between the Curious and the Blacksands and your Breeze I cant believe how good everything sounds now.     If you were here I would shake your hand and buy you a beer!!!!!


----------



## rb2013

panhead said:


> Im using the Curious Regen usb link.   Made a good improvement from the Pangea and the Link provided by Uptone audio.    BTW  many many thanks for suggesting the power cord for the Breeze.
> 
> I didnt order the one you suggested but instead had  Blacksands cable in the closet.    WOW between the Curious and the Blacksands and your Breeze I cant believe how good everything sounds now.     If you were here I would shake your hand and buy you a beer!!!!!


 






Cheers Bro!
  
 I'm curious about the Curious link as well.  What I have read on the Headfi Regen thread is that blocking the power feed out of the Regen helps the SQ - so looking for an adapter or tail that is data only.  Of course the DU-U8 would work great with that configuration.  Also a power line block at the USB PC end.
  
 Some stuff posted about unpowered pin 1 'compactive coupling' with the USB datalines:


> Actually, the reason for blocking Pin 1 (with tape or an SBooster VBus Isolator) or for using a 3-wire USB cable, whether between your source and the USB Regen or between the USB Regen and a self-powered DAC, is to avoid the capacitive coupling of the +5V wire that can be detrimental to the data even when no power is flowing. (See my Alex Crespi quote, above.)


 
 Don't really know if this is just theory - or if it improves the sound in practice - but would like to try it.  The SBooster VBus Isolators are hard to come by - but I read that Curious can provide a block with their USB cable.  So after trying a friend's Curious, and if it improves the SQ in a major way, may give that a try as well.  That might be a good tweek with or without a Regen.  It would be great if AQ sold a Jitterbug version with the power block built in (and maybe that's what the JB is doing - decoupling that 'capacitive coupling').
  
 The DU-U8 appears to respond well to better power cables - thanks for sharing your experience.  More feedback is great.


----------



## panhead

Just ordered the Sbooster from Acoustic sounds.    Backordered but thats ok.    
  
  
 BTW system listed here:  http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/8490.html


----------



## rb2013

panhead said:


> Just ordered the Sbooster from Acoustic sounds.    Backordered but thats ok.


 

 Thanks for the tip - will order one today as well.
  
 PS Did you find the VBus Isolator there?  I couldn't find it - just there line conditioners and power supplies.


----------



## panhead

I contacted Mark at sourcesystems@cox.net and found out Acoustic Sounds carries the sbooster.  Perhaps he can help.


----------



## panhead

Used this in the past:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/131200504256?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT    Wanted to keep the Gustard (long gone) powered on all the time.


----------



## rb2013

panhead said:


> Used this in the past:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/131200504256?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT    Wanted to keep the Gustard (long gone) powered on all the time.


 

 Yes I have one of these - it came with TeraDak X1/X2 along with a 2.5mm.  But that only blocks at the USB B end - not a the A side (output side).  It's the diabling of the pin 1 at the source that de-couples the capactiance.
  
 Here is the VBUS Isloator:


----------



## conquerator2

I also use an isolator.
 So, the cable above is a data only cable so long as you don't use the sleeve connector connection [for lack of a better word :]]?


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> I also use an isolator.
> So, the cable above is a data only cable so long as you don't use the sleeve connector connection [for lack of a better word :]]?


 

 There is a list of High End Audio Dealers in the US on the SBoost website that have the VBUS but none in WA or OR.  I'll make some calls tomorrow around the country - don't know if any dealers want to handle such a small dollar item that has to be shipped.
  
 Might have to ship to a relative in France to then ship to me.  What a pain.


----------



## rb2013

Just a reminder for those getting a new Breeze DU-U8.  Like all these USB bridges (and most equipment) they need some run in time for the caps and clock crystals to settle in.  Around 100-150 hrs of run time should do it.  This has been well documented here by many users.  After breakin the DU-U8 will be smoother and more open - with deeper, better defined bass.
  
 I use a combination of music and Isotek burin tracks. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/isotek/cd.html
  
 On another note - I have been communicating with Breeze rep (builder?) Yang Wang about sending him some Cyrstek CCHD-957 clocks for factroy installation - he said no go.  Their factory is just too busy to do a custom install.
  
 Looks like I might have to buy one of those expensive hot air gun solders - needed for a delicate SMD mounting job.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> Just a reminder for those getting a new Breeze DU-U8.  Like all these USB bridges (and most equipment) they need some run in time for the caps and clock crystals to settle in.  Around 100-150 hrs of run time should do it.  This has been well documented here by many users.  After breakin the DU-U8 will be smoother and more open - with deeper, better defined bass.
> 
> I use a combination of music and Isotek burin tracks. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/isotek/cd.html
> 
> ...


 
 That's a bummer, but I guess it's expected with a busy operation.  I take my hat off to anyone willing to do the SMD  desolder/re-solder work. I just don't have the eyesight or patience to do it.  
  
 This was one of several reasons I was willing to take the risk on the Tanly DDC.  I saw an excellent design (very similar to Berkeley) with Crysteks, good power regulation, galvanic isolation  and I2S over hdmi. I wasn't disappointed.  The Tanly also has a standard IEC power connection, so I could use the extensive filtering I already have and I could play with the many high-end power cords on hand to tune the sound to my taste. I too was very surprised by the improved sound with the right cord. In my case it was the Analysis-Plus Silver Power Oval. I even had fun playing with a few different power fuses.


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> That's a bummer, but I guess it's expected with a busy operation.  I take my hat off to anyone willing to do the SMD  desolder/re-solder work. I just don't have the eyesight or patience to do it.
> 
> This was one of several reasons I was willing to take the risk on the Tanly DDC.  I saw an excellent design (very similar to Berkeley) with Crysteks, good power regulation, galvanic isolation  and I2S over hdmi. I wasn't disappointed.  The Tanly also has a standard IEC power connection, so I could use the extensive filtering I already have and I could play with the many high-end power cords on hand to tune the sound to my taste. I too was very surprised by the improved sound with the right cord. In my case it was the Analysis-Plus Silver Power Oval. I even had fun playing with a few different power fuses.


The Tanly is definitely a beautiful design. I'll make low temp soldering my next technical adventure, like anything a little practice goes a long way.

Well score two for the Cerious Graphen Extreme low current. Just got the second one today. This time using it on the APL NWOjr DAC on the main system. All I can say is Wow!

This time replacing the very good Synergistic Research Ref X2 Active with a Galeaio MPC. Tough comparison...cold out of box the Cerious just amazing. Bass lines now even deeper and the definition! Wider and deeper sound staging, more organic quality, silky smooth, great detail. This is really blowing me away, how just a power cord can make such a difference.

He must run these on cable burner, never had a cable so good out of the box. The one on DU-U8 has gotten better with run time. Can't wait to hear this in a week or two.

I want to get two more for the office system, but wifey would kill me.:rolleyes: Maybe in Jan.

How much do they give you for blood donations?


----------



## GCTD

Since where all about cleaning up the signal in the chain with all the cable discussion and what not, I'd like to add Noise Stopper Caps for RCA and XLR for this. There's one by AudioQuest and Cardas, but Apollo AV, Inc. has these caps for a much more affordable price, it has Teflon insulation and it's Nickle (or Gold) plated.
  




  
 P.S.: I decided to get this since Gustard U12 and Gustard DAC-X12 USB doesn't come factory with it.


----------



## Triplefun

Rather than buying expensive cables has anyone tried just hardwiring the DAC to the preamp using shortest run cables possible. When you look inside the devices you see simple cables linking the various internal elements. But then you want to spend big dollars linking components. I would have thought the biggest issue would be the quality of the connectors. So why not just hardwire the components and bypass the connectors.


----------



## rb2013

gctd said:


> Since where all about cleaning up the signal in the chain with all the cable discussion and what not, I'd like to add Noise Stopper Caps for RCA and XLR for this. There's one by AudioQuest and Cardas, but Apollo AV, Inc. has these caps for a much more affordable price, it has Teflon insulation and it's Nickle (or Gold) plated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have those on my empty rca inputs on my amps - Cardas ones I believe.
  


triplefun said:


> Rather than buying expensive cables has anyone tried just hardwiring the DAC to the preamp using shortest run cables possible. When you look inside the devices you see simple cables linking the various internal elements. But then you want to spend big dollars linking components. I would have thought the biggest issue would be the quality of the connectors. So why not just hardwire the components and bypass the connectors.


 
 That would work but limit flexiblity - for example in one system the Regen/LPS and a Remedy/LPS worked great (with my DAC60), but not in my other system.  The Regen actually hurt the sound and the Remedy was just so small a difference no justify the cost.  I suppose after you decide on your final configuration you could just hard wire it.  But attention to RFI/Emi shielding and the use of high quality wire - your probably back to where you would be with a plug and play solution.


----------



## rb2013

A lot has been going back and forth about 'capacitive coupling' with the power leads and data leads within the USB A connector plugged into the PC- over on the Regen thread.
 According to Alex at Uptone this a major problem, that even a split USB cable doesn't solve (or the Regen!).  Much has been said about the elusive SBooster VBUS isolator - and it sonic benefits (decouples at the receiving end of the USB cable).  But are almost impossible to buy in the US.
  
 So I thought - since the DU-U8 doesn't need any USB power  - why not turn the AQ Jitterbug into a VBUS +5VDC blocker as well.
  
 So I popped it open and clipped the 1 lead with my micro wire clutters - the results are positive!
  
 So now my Jitterbug is a VBUS blocker as well and it cost $0!


----------



## GCTD

rb2013 said:


> A lot has been going back and forth about 'capacitive coupling' with the power leads and data leads within the USB A connector plugged into the PC- over on the Regen thread.
> According to Alex at Uptone this a major problem, that even a split USB cable doesn't solve (or the Regen!).  Much has been said about the elusive SBooster VBUS isolator - and it sonic benefits (decouples at the receiving end of the USB cable).  But are almost impossible to buy in the US.
> 
> So I thought - since the DU-U8 doesn't need any USB power  - why not turn the AQ Jitterbug into a VBUS +5VDC blocker as well.
> ...




Can this mod be done if Wyrd USB Decrapifier is in the chain?


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> A lot has been going back and forth about 'capacitive coupling' with the power leads and data leads within the USB A connector plugged into the PC- over on the Regen thread.
> According to Alex at Uptone this a major problem, that even a split USB cable doesn't solve (or the Regen!).  Much has been said about the elusive SBooster VBUS isolator - and it sonic benefits (decouples at the receiving end of the USB cable).  But are almost impossible to buy in the US.
> 
> So I thought - since the DU-U8 doesn't need any USB power  - why not turn the AQ Jitterbug into a VBUS +5VDC blocker as well.
> ...


 
 Wonderful hack.  I'm assuming that my Tanly doesn't need Vbus either. I'll block it with electrical tape first and then give it the snip if it works.


----------



## rb2013

gctd said:


> Can this mod be done if Wyrd USB Decrapifier is in the chain?


 
 I can't see why not - does the Wyrd need USB power?  It works great with the Regen.  Will try the other JB I have between the PC and Regen - also after the Regen.
  


stuartmc said:


> Wonderful hack.  I'm assuming that my Tanly doesn't need Vbus either. I'll block it with electrical tape first and then give it the snip if it works.


 
 Soem DDC's like the Gustard need a USB power handshake to activate a relay inside.  Don't know if the Tanly does.


----------



## rb2013

Ok tried my modded Jitterbug VBUS blocker on the main system tonight - nice, subtile but an improvement. Greater clarity and a touch more bass impact. So added the second unmodded JB to an adjacent USB port, another subtile improvement. Greater organic-ness.

Now I have to get a 3rd JB - one I'll mod to go back into the office system.

The 2nd Cerious Graphen low current is burning in nicely, a bit fuller tonight. Just ordered my 3rd one. The kind fellow at Cerious honoring the 50% discount from Audiogon Black Friday. So $250 vs $500 list. Without a doubt the best $250 power cord I ever heard. The SR X series up on Audiogon, anybody need a near 8ft top power cable?


----------



## nel1s

I'm at a loss - can't get the U8 to work. Running windows 7 here and drivers seem to have installed fine (v2.26), audio playback seems to be ok - see screenshot below. Running a USB cable to the U8, then a Van Damme AES cable to my Genelec speaker.  So, this may not be an issue with the U8: but since I have no alternative way of testing the speaker at present I'd like to exclude any problems with the U8 first. Any ideas for trouble shooting?


----------



## GCTD

nel1s said:


> I'm at a loss - can't get the U8 to work. Running windows 7 here and drivers seem to have installed fine (v2.26), audio playback seems to be ok - see screenshot below. Running a USB cable to the U8, then a Van Damme AES cable to my Genelec speaker.  So, this may not be an issue with the U8: but since I have no alternative way of testing the speaker at present I'd like to exclude any problems with the U8 first. Any ideas for trouble shooting?


 
  
 You have to connect the U12 to a dac.


----------



## nel1s

gctd said:


> You have to connect the U12 to a dac.


 
  
 Yep I do this - it's a Genelec 8351a speaker with AES/EBU input that leads to its integrated DAC.


----------



## rb2013

nel1s said:


> I'm at a loss - can't get the U8 to work. Running windows 7 here and drivers seem to have installed fine (v2.26), audio playback seems to be ok - see screenshot below. Running a USB cable to the U8, then a Van Damme AES cable to my Genelec speaker.  So, this may not be an issue with the U8: but since I have no alternative way of testing the speaker at present I'd like to exclude any problems with the U8 first. Any ideas for trouble shooting?


 

 Try the 2.24V driver - the 2.26 can be bauky on some Win machines.  First try a SPDIF cable.


----------



## nel1s

rb2013 said:


> Try the 2.24V driver - the 2.26 can be bauky on some Win machines.  First try a SPDIF cable.


 
  
 Cool, will do - any chance you have a link for the 2.24 driver?


----------



## rb2013

nel1s said:


> Cool, will do - any chance you have a link for the 2.24 driver?


 

 Courtesy of Chodi's link on page 3, post 35:
  
 http://www.speedyshare.com/RXMDH/Luckit-2.23-for-Gustard-U12.rar
  
 Full capabilities including vol and balance control.


----------



## m0reilly

...and they work super on the breeze, with an enhanced bass over the newer 2.26...


----------



## Triplefun

See http://jlsounds.com/drivers.html for ready access to the XMOS drivers
 The 2.23 link provided above was blocked by Windows Smartscreen.


----------



## GCTD

triplefun said:


> See http://jlsounds.com/drivers.html for ready access to the XMOS drivers
> The 2.23 link provided above was blocked by Windows Smartscreen.


 
  
 There should be a "run anyway" option. 
  
 Gustard's official sharelink for all Gustard things related, it's in Chinese so you'll have to google translate or use a web addon to translate it. Pretty self explanatory though.
  
 http://yun.baidu.com/share/home?uk=842027555&view=share#category/type=0


----------



## nel1s

Guys this great, thanks for all your help. I've now tried the Luckit 2.23 on my windows 7 machine, and also tried install  some driver packages on another windows 10 machine. To no avail, unfortunately - no sound from either of the laptops.
  
 I will have to find another way to find out whether the DU-U8 is dead. Or, before I start that tricky logistic process, perhaps the last thing to try is to measure whether there's actually any signal coming out of the usb port? Is there a way to do that?


----------



## Etienne

I've received my Breeze Audio DU-U8 today.
What is the pinout of the I2S RJ45 output ? I didn't find any information with the product and it seems there is no standard for this connector.


----------



## ahendler

etienne said:


> I've received my Breeze Audio DU-U8 today.
> What is the pinout of the I2S RJ45 output ? I didn't find any information with the product and it seems there is no standard for this connector.


 
 That is true. It also depends on the pin arrainement of your dac. My Breeze did not work with my dac while the Melodius did indicating to me the pin arraingement of the two are different. If you can use the AES/EBU (XLR) output it sounds as good as the I2S output
 Alan


----------



## FredA

ahendler said:


> That is true. It also depends on the pin arrainement of your dac. My Breeze did not work with my dac while the Melodius did indicating to me the pin arraingement of the two are different. If you can use the AES/EBU (XLR) output it sounds as good as the I2S output
> Alan




The breeze's pinout is the same as audio-gd's. I am using one in my setup, on top of a master-7, connected with a very short shielded cat6a network cable, using also a schiit wyrd sitting on top of a mac mini, again hooked with very short cable, through a jitterbug, and a second jitterbug in an unused port. The breeze is fed through an acoustic zen tsunami cord. I have a 6n usb wire with separate signal and power conductors between the wyrd and the breeze.

And that all sounds phenomenal. So focused, so dynamic, so full, so accurate, so sweet. Champagne for your ears.


----------



## ahendler

freda said:


> The breeze's pinout is the same as audio-gd's. I am using one in my setup, on top of a master-7, connected with a very short shielded cat6a network cable, using also a schiit wyrd sitting on top of a mac mini, again hooked with very short cable, through a jitterbug, and a second jitterbug in an unused port. The breeze is fed through an acoustic zen tsunami cord. I have a 6n usb wire with separate signal and power conductors between the wyrd and the breeze.
> 
> And that all sounds phenomenal. So focused, so dynamic, so full, so accurate, so sweet. Champagne for your ears.


 
 Funny, the Breeze won't work with my Master 7. That's ok because I like the Melodius better. I have the brand new version of the Melodius that just came out
 Just want to add, isn't the Master7 an incredible dac. After a friend heard it he got rid of his esoteric and got the Master7. His friends say that
 his system has never sounded better. After I break in the Melodius I will give the Breeze another try
 Alan


----------



## rb2013

etienne said:


> I've received my Breeze Audio DU-U8 today.
> What is the pinout of the I2S RJ45 output ? I didn't find any information with the product and it seems there is no standard for this connector.


 

  
 Here is the DU-U8 pinouts.  There are no standards when it comes to i2s - it was not meant to be an external hookup.  It was designed for very short (inches) connection inside a CD player between the transport and DAC board.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> The breeze's pinout is the same as audio-gd's. I am using one in my setup, on top of a master-7, connected with a very short shielded cat6a network cable, using also a schiit wyrd sitting on top of a mac mini, again hooked with very short cable, through a jitterbug, and a second jitterbug in an unused port. The breeze is fed through an acoustic zen tsunami cord. I have a 6n usb wire with separate signal and power conductors between the wyrd and the breeze.
> 
> And that all sounds phenomenal. So focused, so dynamic, so full, so accurate, so sweet. Champagne for your ears.


 

 Cheers!  The Breeze responds very well to better power cords.


----------



## rb2013

ahendler said:


> Funny, the Breeze won't work with my Master 7. That's ok because I like the Melodius better. I have the brand new version of the Melodius that just came out
> Just want to add, isn't the Master7 an incredible dac. After a friend heard it he got rid of his esoteric and got the Master7. His friends say that
> his system has never sounded better. After I break in the Melodius I will give the Breeze another try
> Alan


 

 Good feedback on the new Melodious - they followed the double power regulation of the Breeze - got to love the Chinese DDC wars!
  
 I see that Melodious does not use any heatsinks on the new design - that was a mod after many issues with their first batch.  I had three and all did not work properly.  To my ears the MX-U8 had a nice incisive quality - but the Hydra Z then the DU-U8 Breeze just crushed it on ease, musicality and flow.  The Breeze adding another half octave of bass and an even wider sound stage.  With the Cerious power cord scaling new heights (also a modded Jitterbug adds to the ease and naturalness).
  
 Any photos of the inside would be appreciated -  is seems there are constant changes to their designs.
  
 Cheers


----------



## FredA

ahendler said:


> Funny, the Breeze won't work with my Master 7. That's ok because I like the Melodius better. I have the brand new version of the Melodius that just came out
> Just want to add, isn't the Master7 an incredible dac. After a friend heard it he got rid of his esoteric and got the Master7. His friends say that
> his system has never sounded better. After I break in the Melodius I will give the Breeze another try
> Alan




One thing with i2s is you want to turn off both the dac and the interface before connecting them together to avoid damages. The i2s might not works when the dsp is disabled on the m7, i read something to that effect on headfi i think.

A tip to improve the sound of the m7 with i2s is to turn the pll off (assuming that a very good interface is used). I also upsample to 48/24 in audirvana using 1 million samples in the advanced config. It gives more resolution.

The new melodious looks great inside. Looks like a fine product. The breeze is very nice given the price. And it is really better than the di2014, which is very good.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Cheers!  The Breeze responds very well to better power cords.




I haven't tried many. I went from a belden to the az and noticed a nice improvment. This breeze is the best value i have ever bought as audio equipment. The designer hit a homerun with this one,


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I haven't tried many. I went from a belden to the az and noticed a nice improvment. This breeze is the best value i have ever bought as audio equipment. The designer hit a homerun with this one,


 

 I agree - I've been through almost a dozen different USB Bridges some pretty expensive - it's the best yet.
  
 Once I get some time will try some mods on it to if that's worth it.  Crystek clocks will be my first project.


----------



## Etienne

rb2013 said:


> Here is the DU-U8 pinouts.  There are no standards when it comes to i2s - it was not meant to be an external hookup.  It was designed for very short (inches) connection inside a CD player between the transport and DAC board.



 


Thank you !
My project is to use I2s connection to link the DU-U8 to the "I.AM.D V200" FDA (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Pure-Digital-Audio-Amplifier-Precise-DSP-Processor-105db-High-Dynamic-150W-2-CM6631A-24Bit-192KHz-USB/32417096558.html)
There is no I2S input on this very nice digital amplifier, but his board has pins where we may connect I2S (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/280228-i-am-d-v200-fx-audio-d802-optimisation-tpa3116.html)
The connection must not be so short if you use S/FTP Cat7A cable.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I agree - I've been through almost a dozen different USB Bridges some pretty expensive - it's the best yet.
> 
> Once I get some time will try some mods on it to if that's worth it.  Crystek clocks will be my first project.




I am not sure about modding. Those golden clocks might been cherry picked. The breeze sounds so perfectly i don't want to jinx it. Maybe the filtering capacitors...

It is worthwhile trying digital ics in my opnion. For instance, Acoustic zen makes cable that are claimed to reduce jitter. My friend uses a div3 (fed by a really good psu) hooked with an az silverbyte to an audio-gd nfb-8 and his setup sounds so good. I suppose the silverbyte helps a lot.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I am not sure about modding. Those golden clocks might been cherry picked. The breeze sounds so perfectly i don't want to jinx it. Maybe the filtering capacitors...
> 
> It is worthwhile trying digital ics in my opnion. For instance, Acoustic zen makes cable that are claimed to reduce jitter. My friend uses a div3 (fed by a really good psu) hooked with an az silverbyte to an audio-gd nfb-8 and his setup sounds so good. I suppose the silverbyte helps a lot.


 
 Well back about a hundred pages ago (boy how this thread has grown) when we were looking at modding the Gustard U12 and the Melodious MX-U8 a lot was said about upgrading the clocks.
  
 All these units use the same OEM TXCO Chinese clocks which are very good.  But when compared to the very best low noise Crysteks or NDK's they are orders of maginitude greater in noise.  So it's the phase noise numbers that matter not so much the .01ppm clock drift figures.
  
 Here is how the 'gold' TXCO clocks stack up (remember every 3dB is a doubling of the noise):
  
 JYEC OEM TXCO       -125dB@1kHz (the only frequency these numbers have been published)
 Cyrstek CCHD-957      -153dB@1kHz, -163 @10kHz, -168@100kHz
 NDK SD                       -155dB@1kHz, -158@10kHz, -158@100kHz
  
 So we are talking orders of magnitude lower noise.  The top USB bridge the Berkely Audio uses the Crystek clocks, as does the Hydra Z and the Tanly.  But in my extensive (I had a linear powered Hydra Z for months) the Breeze was better - so clocks are not the only important factor.  But I am curious as to if or by how much the Breeze would improve with the Crysteks.  Breeze declined to install them at the factory.  And since the CCHD-957 is a SMD design (no through the hole pin version available yet), it's not an easy install.  They need to be carefully mounted on a 14pin DIP socket first.

  
  
  
 That requires a hot air soldering gun and low temp solder.  A decent soldering unit is a few hundred dollars.
  
 The clocks are not too expense - $26 each at Digikey.
  
 I will try and replace the caps after the clocks - those Pannie XPO caps look very good and maybe part of the reason the Breeze sounds so good.  But worth a try to swap in some low ESR Nichicons just to see.  It's an easy mod and reversible.
  
 I'll check out the Silverbytes - right now the Cerious Graphene Extreme has made a very significant improvement in sound.  Had a silver wire/rhodium plug cord before - the Cerious was  a major leap ahead.  They're not cheap but not outrageous at $250 for the low current Red model (special Audiogon price - normally $500).  Bought a second to try on my DAC and similar improvements (over the Synergistic Research X2 Ref Master Coupler Active).
 http://cerioustechnologies.com


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Well back about a hundred pages ago (boy how this thread has grown) when we were looking at modding the Gustard U12 and the Melodious MX-U8 a lot was said about upgrading the clocks.
> 
> All these units use the same OEM TXCO Chinese clocks which are very good.  But when compared to the very best low noise Crysteks or NDK's they are orders of maginitude greater in noise.  So it's the phase noise numbers that matter not so much the .01ppb clock drift figures.
> 
> ...




Well that solering job is too much for my skills. I might venture into trying better caps later on. Crytek should offer adapting to a solder-through pcb as an option. I don't know why they don't.

Acoustic zen makes also a more high-end digital cable which is called mc2=zen. Never tried that one. But my experience is that those cables help. But there may be better cables these days, not sure, for the money. The digital zens use upocc silver. And at the time those cable were released, they were better than cables cost 2-3 times more.

I am not sure a human can hear the difference under -125db of phase noise. I would rather concentrate on preventing noise from coming into the breeze, as i did so far,


----------



## robertsong

Bob, I plan to upgrade the spdif input jack on DU-U8. What do you recommend for hookup wire to replace the green/yellow wires? And what guage?


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Well back about a hundred pages ago (boy how this thread has grown) when we were looking at modding the Gustard U12 and the Melodious MX-U8 a lot was said about upgrading the clocks.
> 
> All these units use the same OEM TXCO Chinese clocks which are very good.  But when compared to the very best low noise Crysteks or NDK's they are orders of maginitude greater in noise.  So it's the phase noise numbers that matter not so much the .01ppm clock drift figures.
> 
> ...


 
Can I get the special pricing on the *cerious graphene extreme cable? would you let me know if thats still possible? I'm interested to do some testing with that cable. Please let me know. Your claims seem to say it's more than a subtle upgrade but a very noticeable upgrade. *​


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> Can I get the special pricing on the *cerious graphene extreme cable? would you let me know if thats still possible? I'm interested to do some testing with that cable. Please let me know. Your claims seem to say it's more than a subtle upgrade but a very noticeable upgrade. *​


 

 Well I just ordered my third - this one for the DU-U8 in the office system.  After asking him nicely he was kind enough to honor it.
  
 I think he would do the same for you - I'd email him - or better if you're an Audiogon member message him on one of his other ads. 
  
 https://app.audiogon.com/listings/speaker-cerious-technologies-graphene-extreme-6-foot-set-speaker-cable-2015-11-19-cables-85382-peoria-az


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Bob, I plan to upgrade the spdif input jack on DU-U8. What do you recommend for hookup wire to replace the green/yellow wires? And what guage?


 

 Yeah me too!  I have a nice pure Tellurium copper Eichman left from my DAC60 mod.  I'm going to do the same - It's nice that the DU-U8 SPDIF RCA jack is not one of those direct board soldered ones, that make install way easier.
  
 I use Mundorf solid silver, 1% gold teflon dielectric.   I have some left over from my DAC60 mod project as well.  But any high quality cable would work.  I just find the solid wire cable easier to solder into the board holes.
  
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/wire_hookup_mundorf.html
  
 Here is something  I used on the DAC60 for Choke wiring, it's a lot cheaper:
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/wire_hookup_neotech_cu_tef_sc.html


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Well I just ordered my third - this one for the DU-U8 in the office system.  After asking him nicely he was kind enough to honor it.
> 
> I think he would do the same for you - I'd email him - or better if you're an Audiogon member message him on one of his other ads.
> 
> https://app.audiogon.com/listings/speaker-cerious-technologies-graphene-extreme-6-foot-set-speaker-cable-2015-11-19-cables-85382-peoria-az


 
 what is the exact model/specs of the one you purchased? do you have photos? their website is terrible and not much info or photos.


----------



## nel1s

Is there anyone based in the UK who'd be willing to check up my DU-U8 for a reasonable fee, or anyone know of any decent outfits that can do this for me? I can post it or bring it down if in London area


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> what is the exact model/specs of the one you purchased? do you have photos? their website is terrible and not much info or photos.


 

  Here is the Audiogon Ad picture when the 3rd arrives I'll snap a photo before install.
  
 https://app.audiogon.com/listings/ac-cables-cerious-technologies-graphene-extreme-black-friday-sale-2015-11-09-power-85382-peoria-az?show_listing=true

  


> We have found that experiencing our Graphene Extreme cables is our best sales tool. Once you hear them in your system you will be blown away at the performance - at any price. So,,,to help you discover what we believe to be the best sounding cables at ANY price, we bring you the CT Black Friday Sales Event. You may choose any single Graphene Extreme product of your choice and purchase it for 1/2 of retail price and we also pay for shipping (within the US). Please check out our updated website for more information on the Graphene Extreme line!
> For sale today is one 5 foot long Graphene Extreme power cable optimized for low current detail. Each GE jacket is filled with damping materials to eliminate vibrations. The RED power cables use finer ceramics to address smaller micro vibrations of lower current levels. Each RED PC uses a Gold Plated connector which works better at lower current levels (our listening test exposed this…). We offer a 100% money back guarantee and a liberal trade in policy if you are a previous Cerious Technologies client. You may be surprised how affordable it is to upgrade to the Graphene Extreme. So what do you get with the Graphene Extreme? More quiet and detail. Who doesn’t want that?
> Our goal of creating the most sonically transparent cables ever created has been brought to a new level. First let me say we continue to be very proud of the Nano Signature, as it was sonically outstanding. The Graphene Extreme takes the concepts of the Nano to whole other levels. While other "wire" companies utilize bigger gauge conductors as the line increases in price to justify the increased cost, Cerious Technologies works at the molecular level getting the conductor closer to an ideal conductor.
> Each Graphene Extreme conductor employs five elements –
> ...


----------



## rb2013

OK the LH Labs Lightspeed 2G USB split cable just arrived.  Immediately installed into the office system I have been listening to all morning.
  
 Replacing the 1.5M Supra that been running for several weeks - an immediate change in the sound!
  
 The volume is so much greater - that is weird.  I only turned off my PC and DU-U8 and replaced the USB cable - amp/DAC all left exactly the same.
  
 So much more detail and clarity - dynamics as well.  I'm a cable believer  - but this is truly baffling me.  Using only the Data line - the power left unplugged.  My modded Jitterbug/VBUS isloator in between.
  
 Very, very nice.  Just a hint of edge - which I'm sure will go away with run time.
  
 I find it really hard to believe that folks could not hear a difference between the 10g and the Supra.
  
 Will run it all day -as wifey has a Xmas shopping exposition planned.
  
 Then tonight once she watching Lifetime - I'll put in the main system.  Just as I'm typing this listening to Mozart Murray Perahia English Chamber Orch - "The Piano Concertos & Rondos K.382 & 386".  I'm floored at the depth of the acoustic bass notes and delicacy of the solo piano strikes.  Seriously great stuff.


----------



## rb2013

OK last night a long listening session on the main system with the Lightspeed 2G feeding the DU-U8- not as dramatic a difference as in my office system.  But no less important.  What the 2G did was great fun - it infused the imaging with greater holopgrahy.  The sound stage widened and deepened further - really cavernous now.  But the real magic was how the vocals and instruments emerged in the huge sound field.  Really hard to explain this - the images appeared and disappeared more naturally with greater micro-dynamics, the sound images more 3D, producing a greater effect of radiating out as point sources.  Focused, detailed, life sized, super realistic. 
  
 Not nearly as big of a vol gain  - in fact very slight.  Absolutely no hint of edge or grain - I put the worst recordings I could find up - just relaxed and musical.  An absolute winner.
 Bass did not extend but became better defined. 
  
 This was vs the Forza Twin Copper split.  The 2G only hours out of the box.  This system using only my modded Jitterbug/VBUS blocker - no Regen. 
 SPDIF Coax to my APL NWOjr DAC - linked by the excellent Audio Sensibilities Statement SE Silver 1.5M digital cable.
  
 I'm a big believer in synergies - especially with cables.  It seems I have lucked out recently with cables the Cerious Graphene and Lightspeed matching very well with the Breeze DU-U8.  I've not always had such luck with new cables - my 200+ Audiogon transactions can attest to that!
  
 I would have ordered another 2G last night - but a friend has sent his Curious USB cable (not to be confused with Cerious Technology - completely separate companies).  Should be here next week.  So before I buy another 2G I want to hear the Curious USB cable - for $380 for the 1M - it had better be killer good.  The 2G is $199 - around my $200-$250 limit for these kinds of cables. The reviews around say the Curious is better then the Lightspeed 10G - so we will see.
  
 Once my comparisons are done the Supra will go up for sale - the Forza as well.
  
 Cheers!
  
 http://www.curiouscables.com/buy.html
 http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/digital-cables-occ-copper-and-occ-silver/#!/Statement-SE-Silver-S-PDIF-RCA-BNC-Digital-Cable/p/46391588/category=4059160
 http://forzaaudioworks.com/en/product.php?id_product=46
 https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/wire/cable/supra-high-speed-usb-2.0-a-b/


----------



## panhead

Looking forward to your Curious vs LS G2 write up!!!


----------



## riffer

I managed to get an Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5 with the "HDMI Hynes Regulator" for a good price used. I had to load the M2Tech HiFace 1 drivers into my Squeezebox Touch with EDO firmware before it would connect. I much prefer the HDMI output into my Audio-gd Master 7 over the BNC output. I'm still deciding if the HDMI output beats the RCA>BNC output of the Gustard though. Needless to say, it's no the easiest thing to compare as one has to switch the USB cable between the two reclockers and then reselect the new reclocker and reboot the Touch. I'll probably just live with them both for a while and make a decision.


----------



## rb2013

riffer said:


> I managed to get an Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5 with the "HDMI Hynes Regulator" for a good price used. I had to load the M2Tech HiFace 1 drivers into my Squeezebox Touch with EDO firmware before it would connect. I much prefer the HDMI output into my Audio-gd Master 7 over the BNC output. I'm still deciding if the HDMI output beats the RCA>BNC output of the Gustard though. Needless to say, it's no the easiest thing to compare as one has to switch the USB cable between the two reclockers and then reselect the new reclocker and reboot the Touch. I'll probably just live with them both for a while and make a decision.


 

 Yeah - I feel your pain!  Changing drivers on the fly can be troublesome, if I had a nickel for every time I've rebooted a Windows PC...
  
 Well the OR5 with the Hynes Reg upgrade is a sota unit - right there with the Berkeley USB.  And for $1649 not including the Dynamo power supply it should be.  The fact a $200 Gustard can remain in the same room speaks volumes.
  
 I just read this on the Empirical website and it set off some interesting questions - like is the Murata transformer on the SPDIF really needed?  Would the sound improve without it.  Can a Breeze be hotwired to bypass it?  Hum...
  


> *OTL option (Output TransformerLess)*
> This option affects the S/PDIF output only. The OTL option reduces jitter at least 50% from the standard Off-Ramp 5 by removing the transformer for the S/PDIF output and changing some associated circuitry. If you have a DAC that already has a transformer on the S/PDIF input (galvanically isolated from ground), then this is an attractive option for you. It is unneccesary to have 2 transformers in series and one at the DAC input is more optimal than one at the Off-Ramp 5.


----------



## nel1s

Complete noob question: just opened the u8 and it says 220v everywhere - I'm in the UK and the net is 240, right? Am I missing something?

Also, does it matter what type of ac power cable I use with it?


----------



## rb2013

nel1s said:


> Complete noob question: just opened the u8 and it says 220v everywhere - I'm in the UK and the net is 240, right? Am I missing something?
> 
> Also, does it matter what type of ac power cable I use with it?


 

 I would check with Breeze or the dealer you bought from  - I don't think it's a problem.  Like here 110V or 120V all seem to work fine.  UK is 50 cycles right?
  
 It seem to improve the sound with a better cable -in the UK Russ Andrews has some nice kit.


----------



## ccschua

No issue on it. my system is 240V 50 hz, and I am using the 220V breeze.
  
 so far, its quite promising, and I just run it today.
  
 may be next week I will replace it with crystek and see how it sounds.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> No issue on it. my system is 240V 50 hz, and I am using the 220V breeze.
> 
> so far, its quite promising, and I just run it today.
> 
> may be next week I will replace it with crystek and see how it sounds.


 

 If you have the equipment and patience - you could start a nice little business selling those Cyrsteks CCHD-957 mounted on DIP14 adapters.
  
 Good luck with the DU-U8 - you know the break in deal.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> If you have the equipment and patience - you could start a nice little business selling those Cyrsteks CCHD-957 mounted on DIP14 adapters.
> 
> Good luck with the DU-U8 - you know the break in deal.




That is something crystek should offer. I am not sure how much difference it can make using these and if a human being can hear the difference. I am more concerned about noise-induced jitter. Plus my setup sounds like perfect for a week. Hard-pressed to find anything to improve on sound-wise. No hole in the spectrum, pinpoint image, micro-dynamics, macro-dynamics, lots of details, no harshness with even the toughest records (big bands for instance), awesome timbres, etc... I am going through all my records.

I am looking forward to hearing about the resuls however and might get tempted, especially if these adapted clocks get on the market.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> That is something crystek should offer. I am not sure how much difference it can make using these and if a human being can hear the difference. I am more concerned about noise-induced jitter. Plus my setup sounds like perfect for a week. Hard-pressed to find anything to improve on sound-wise. No hole in the spectrum, pinpoint image, micro-dynamics, macro-dynamics, lots of details, no harshness with even the toughest records (big bands for instance), awesome timbres, etc... I am going through all my records.
> 
> I am looking forward to hearing about the resuls however and might get tempted, especially if these adapted clocks get on the market.


 

 I agree - the DU-U8 is so good I'm hard pressed to think it can sound better.  But then I added the Art Audio PB4x4Pro line conditioner - another level, then the Cerious Graphene - another level - the LightSpeed 2G - another level - modded Jitterbug/VBUS blocker (not as extreme - but noticeable) - even better.
  
 Now those were not mods to the Breeze itself - just better feeding.  I'm in no hurry at all to mod or change the Breeze - the best my systems have ever sounded.  You hit the nail on the head for the details - it's the total package.  That's why I've stopped here and worked to make the system around the DU-U8 better - it hasn't reached it's amazing full capabilities.  It just keeps scaling higher and higher - like a $6K Dynavector XV-1S phono cartridge.
  
 Right now going through dozens of favorite CDs and digitalized LPs (at 32 bit 176K sampling from my old $30K analog rig).  Each now like hearing for the first time - the detail retrieval and presence is astonishing.
  





  
 But I know I will try, eventually, to make it better - it's in my genes.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I agree - the DU-U8 is so good I'm hard pressed to think it can sound better.  But then I added the Art Audio PB4x4Pro line conditioner - another level, then the Cerious Graphene - another level - the LightSpeed 2G - another level - modded Jitterbug/VBUS blocker (not as extreme - but noticeable) - even better.
> 
> 
> Now those were not mods to the Breeze itself - just better feeding.  I'm in no hurry at all to mod or change the Breeze - the best my systems have ever sounded.  You hit the nail on the head for the details - it's the total package.  That's why I've stopped here and worked to make the system around the DU-U8 better - it hasn't reached it's amazing full capabilities.  It just keeps scaling higher and higher - like a $6K Dynavector XV-1S phono cartridge.
> ...




Could you point me to the jitterbug mod descrption? 

Thanks in advance and thanks by the way for being so proactive with digital interface testing. I owe you one for acquiring the breeze.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Could you point me to the jitterbug mod descrption?
> 
> Thanks in advance and thanks by the way for being so proactive with digital interface testing. I owe you one for acquiring the breeze.


 

 Thanks - it has paid off beyond my expectations.  Wow a long journey from the original M2Tech Hiface.
  
 Sure just pop open the case and clip the pin 1 wire on the USB A female.


----------



## bimmer100

It's too bad that the Cerious Power cable did not come recommended to me by the owner of the company. Due to my setup it's not ideal apparently. I'm using a balanced power setup from my P300 and that Cerious Power cable is not designed for that type of A/C Power.  Oh well, bummer. He says a typical designed power cable would be a better option for my needs.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> It's too bad that the Cerious Power cable did not come recommended to me by the owner of the company. Due to my setup it's not ideal apparently. I'm using a balanced power setup from my P300 and that Cerious Power cable is not designed for that type of A/C Power.  Oh well, bummer. He says a typical designed power cable would be a better option for my needs.


 

 Wow - an honest guy!  You have to appreciate that.  What are you looking to try?  I have had good success with Synergistic Research and Shunyata - except now SR has just gone insane with their prices.
  
 What's so different about the P300 other the it's a sign generated 60hz signal?


----------



## bimmer100

You mean super duper clean sine wave? and the P300 can actually change the cycles from 50hz all the way up to 600hz. But this can translate to more Heat, and many transformers can't handle it. If you have high quality R-Core transformers than they can usually handle around 400hz -600hz for more efficient and natural sound.   and my system sounds good. It would actually be nice to meet up and compare our setups sometime. Seriously would love to hear what you have setup. It seems we are both passionate about tweaking and getting every last drop out of our systems.
  
 the PS300 is Balanced AC. 60v on each lead...still 120v gets to power...but balanced...the cerious cable is designed to be beefy on one side, and not on the other...normal cables are designed to be equal on both neutral and hot. So a normal cable is better suited for balanced A/C.
  
 Balanced AC is super uncommon, yet my ac regenerator does that. Typically found in hospitals I suppose.
  
  
 I have a Synergistic research Tesla T1 cable for sale. I don't care for it with my setup. Likely better for tube amps. It's too bright for me. I like a more relaxed smooth sound. My 8 gauge PS audio Lab cable has been the best cable i've used so far. I have since cryo'd it after installing SonarQuest Silver plated red copper connectors.  
  
 have you tested your power cables with a circuit load tester? I love to do this to see what their true capability is. grab one of these if you don't have one already.
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0058ELNFY?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
  
 test ACSS, available short circuit current,  to get some raw numbers to calculate the cables true ability to delivery power. the T1 cable is pretty darn good, and not surprising since it's been tesla treated. Tesla treated cables have always tested very very very good in comparison to normal cables. Cryo'd and cooked cables also do a bit better too. I would love to see what the Graphene cable does. it's likely very good.


----------



## bimmer100

On another note.  I picked up a Anticables 3.1 USB cable to try out with my system. Possibly a YFS split REF cable too, (thinking about this) 
  
 http://anticables.com/interconnects/digital-rca-interconnects#!/Level-3-1-Reference-Series-USB-Digital-Interconnect/p/39552504/category=3682629
  

 I love the look of this cable too, but the external power lead is kind of odd yet likely effective. 
  
  
 I'm still quite happy with my Gustard U12 after all the mods. At first I wasn't impressed with the sound at all. The 957's make a world of a difference. 
  
 Now i'm looking into the LKS Amanero Combo 384 with the Crystek 575's and LPS board. Two PCBs. i'm going to get a separate Rcore R10 transformer to power it and figure a way out to modify and fit it inside my Master11.


----------



## phile1

Hi
 I received the contenter of the U12... the Breeze ! a few hours ago
 very harsh out of the box and still after 6hours burning.
 As some of you stated that changing the power cord brings a lot... I did not change the power cord because I do not have a "good" or "pricey" one to test, but I have a power filter (Schaffner) on a fairly basic power cord.
 As soon as I change the cord provided by Breeze, wit the same cheap one with the filter in the middle of the basic cord => harshness out !
 Thus more than changiing the power cord on the Breeeze, it seems that it is very sentiive to power (and ahead).
 Before receiving the Breeze,I tested this power cord with Schaffner on the G.U12 => slightly less harsh but not night & day.
 Today on the Breeze, it is like night & day.
 Maybe I should have wiat for longer than 6-7 hours burnin ?...
 I'll complete my feedback in the coming days
 Can't tell yet anyway if it is far better than G.U12, but it seems (only with the filter on my setup, otherwie it's too harsh)
 Rgds
  
 EDIT : I have the version 3, with Telema transformer & "golden" clocks.... I can't tell if it make a diff of course


----------



## bimmer100

phile1 said:


> Hi
> I received the contenter of the U12... the Breeze ! a few hours ago
> very harsh out of the box and still after 6hours burning.
> As some of you stated that changing the power cord brings a lot... I did not change the power cord because I do not have a "good" or "pricey" one to test, but I have a power filter (Schaffner) on a fairly basic power cord.
> ...




That's really interesting that you have this breeze DDC and the u12 DDC. Yet from what I'm reading you can't tell the difference? I'm curious what other components you are using for testing. What speakers/headphones? What amp? What Dac? What cables? Are you using a Mac or PC? What software for music? Is it a laptop or desktop? If laptop, are you testing on battery or with smps plugged in and charging batt? If desktop? What USB source? Onboard motherboard ports or dedicated USB card with external power? If desktop what power supply model are you using? 

I'm curious because everything actually makes. A difference. And DDC's are only as good as the overall setup. In my experience I noticed more performance leaps after upgrading my power sources and my USB source (Paul pang v3) 
I'm so sold on clean power it's not even funny. It's not a subtle thing, it's dramatic. And fixes so many issues and headaches that people have. A power cord is only as good as the clean power it's given. And a USB DDC is only as good as the clean power and data a quality dedicated USB card is. Motherboard USB cards absolutely suck and totally dependent on the smps in the desktop computer. Which typically is 20-30mv of noise... Which is awful! Ultra low noise linear power is at least 1mv of noise or less. Or the good stuff like Paul Hynes, it's less than a Microvolt of noise. .5uv or less! Good femto clocks will give a good data stream. But a femto clock can't even operate at specification without ultra clean power. Often times 90% of the DDC's are not even supplying clean enough power for the crystals to operate ideally. Harshness is often attributed from dirty power. Dirty power is everywhere and in most devices. Since smps are so common. Even having a smps near an analog cable can introduce awful noise into a sound system. Careful preparation and planning is required to sort out a sound system to get the most out of it.
Again, I would recommend sorting out a way to achieve ultra low noise and clean sine wave power for all your devices... Then consider fancy cables. Not the other way around. As the results will be less than desirable. Adding a fancy power cable to the breeze may help a little, and possibly a lot of it shield outside noise. But if you have a fancy cable and clean power, you will definitely notice the results. 

I have not tried the breeze DDC as it doesn't have an i2s HDMI port. Personally I love the sound of the i2s HDMI and am sticking to my modded u12 for now. Until I try the LKS amanero combo 384 with crystek 575's , linear psu and dedicated rcore transformer. Also would be interested in the acko version if it had better clocks like crystek!!


On another note... All those devices like the wyrd, jitterbug, Uptone regen Amber I have owned and not one of them has made any difference at all in my system. Why? Because of the clean power and high end USB source from Paul pang. I had to sell them all as they just collected dust. Albeit they were great for my laptop! Like sorcery! But my laptop has dirty power! Especially when it's plugged in! 
And those USB cleaners and reclocker share basically a band aid to a bigger problem imho. And that's dirty power and crappy USB source. You can get something like a cheaper eifidelity USB and teradak lps as an entry level option and improve significantly for about 160-180usd

Or go all out with a Paul pang v3 or v4 ocxo and Paul Hynes sr3 for about 650-700usd

But then you can start to look at linear power or ac regeneration for all your other devices like amp and Dac.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> You mean super duper clean sine wave? and the P300 can actually change the cycles from 50hz all the way up to 600hz. But this can translate to more Heat, and many transformers can't handle it. If you have high quality R-Core transformers than they can usually handle around 400hz -600hz for more efficient and natural sound.   and my system sounds good. It would actually be nice to meet up and compare our setups sometime. Seriously would love to hear what you have setup. It seems we are both passionate about tweaking and getting every last drop out of our systems.
> 
> the PS300 is Balanced AC. 60v on each lead...still 120v gets to power...but balanced...the cerious cable is designed to be beefy on one side, and not on the other...normal cables are designed to be equal on both neutral and hot. So a normal cable is better suited for balanced A/C.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes I meant sine wave - I had an older PS audio and it ws good - but did something to the sound I couldn't live with.  It seemed to rob some of the dynamics and bleach some of the tonality.  I went with Richard Gray Pro400's instead.  I'm sure the newer PS Audios are better.  They are not cheap.  Since the the cords on the DU-U8 and DAC draw very little current - I'm not to worried about load capabilities vs sound quality.  On my Class A integrated I use a Hi Current designed CPCC cord to the Richard Gray.  On the main system a SR X2 Reference Active. 
  
 I would recommend replacing the wall AC receptacle with either a SR Tesla or a PS Audio Power Port if you haven't already - nice improvement in dynamics.
  
 My SR X2 Active was given the 2 million volt cable cook at the SR factory - so has the Teslaplex Ac outlet of course.
  
 The Cerious Graphene is unique as far as any power cord I have ever heard - just straight from the box awesome.  Even the Telsa cooked SR's needed more breakin.
  
 I would rate the $250 Cerious Graphene as big an audio bargain as the Breeze - and that is saying a lot.  Some who read this would laugh at $250 for a power cord - but trust me that is peanuts compared to what the best cords sell for - just a quick scan on Audiogon of used cables you'll see.
  
 PS Come to think of it - I never heard the Breeze or Gustard or Melodious with the stock $2 cord they come with - just naturally reaching for one of the $90 Silver High Breed cords I have around.  This fellow used sell them on Audiogon and they were a bargain so I bought a few.


----------



## rb2013

phile1 said:


> Hi
> I received the contenter of the U12... the Breeze ! a few hours ago
> very harsh out of the box and still after 6hours burning.
> As some of you stated that changing the power cord brings a lot... I did not change the power cord because I do not have a "good" or "pricey" one to test, but I have a power filter (Schaffner) on a fairly basic power cord.
> ...


 

 The Breeze needs 100 hours min to open up and smooth out.  The caps and clocks need that amount of time to settle in - so it should get better.
  
 I agree - my DU-U8's sounded better run on their own separate line conditioners - not expensive at $80 each (the Audio Audio PB4X4 Pro).  The Pro version has both differential and common mode power filtering in a discrete design.
  
 But the improvement in SQ on the Breeze with the Cerious Graphene (plugged into the dedicated PB4X4 PRO) was even greater. 
  
 PS all of my Breezes have the 'Gold' clocks - so I don't think there is a 3rd version.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Yes I meant sine wave - I had an older PS audio and it ws good - but did something to the sound I couldn't live with.  It seemed to rob some of the dynamics and bleach some of the tonality.  I went with Richard Gray Pro400's instead.  I'm sure the newer PS Audios are better.  They are not cheap.  Since the the cords on the DU-U8 and DAC draw very little current - I'm not to worried about load capabilities vs sound quality.  On my Class A integrated I use a Hi Current designed CPCC cord to the Richard Gray.  On the main system a SR X2 Reference Active.
> 
> I would recommend replacing the wall AC receptacle with either a SR Tesla or a PS Audio Power Port if you haven't already - nice improvement in dynamics.
> 
> ...





Just out of curiosity, what model of psaudio ac regenerator did you own? 
Mine is quite old! About 15 years old now. Upgraded to multiwave2, fan, hifi fuse, teslaplex outlet and gaofei outlet, The good old ps300 is hard to find. The newer models are really pricey and out of my budget. Nothing is as small as the p300 either. But maybe someday I will get one to upgrade to. 
I have upgraded the wall outlet too. I'm not a fan of SR teslaplex. I have one in my p300 and prefer my gaofei red copper and rhodium played (translucent blue outlet)
I will replace the teslaplex with a maestro soon.


----------



## johangrb

I also use P300s for my 2 headphones setups. Both upgraded to MultiWave2 - see no reason to upgrade for a headphone setup - they're working great. (I do have a P3 for my speaker/amp  setup).


----------



## ccschua

i m at 72 hours mark and had the PPA V2 fed with DIYINHK 0.8uV power supply.there is further improvement in sound. 

next step will be to use PPA V3 with MOBO clock using OCXO PPA. after that will try with dual PC.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> Just out of curiosity, what model of psaudio ac regenerator did you own?
> Mine is quite old! About 15 years old now. Upgraded to multiwave2, fan, hifi fuse, teslaplex outlet and gaofei outlet, The good old ps300 is hard to find. The newer models are really pricey and out of my budget. Nothing is as small as the p300 either. But maybe someday I will get one to upgrade to.
> I have upgraded the wall outlet too. I'm not a fan of SR teslaplex. I have one in my p300 and prefer my gaofei red copper and rhodium played (translucent blue outlet)
> I will replace the teslaplex with a maestro soon.


 

 It was a P300i believe the multiwave 2 - it ran very hot!  No fan on mine - the later ones had fans I believe.

 I liked the Teslaplex better then the Power Port and the generic Hospital grade (then cryo'd) ones I have.  Will have to try a maestro.
  
 PS Let me correct that - mine had the gray power port sockets not orange -


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> i m at 72 hours mark and had the PPA V2 fed with DIYINHK 0.8uV power supply.there is further improvement in sound.
> 
> next step will be to use PPA V3 with MOBO clock using OCXO PPA. after that will try with dual PC.


 

 That's with the Breeze?  Or just the PPA straight to DAC?  Which DAC?
  
 Try a better power cord on the Breeze it seem to be especially sensitive to a better cord.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> It was a P300i believe the multiwave 2 - it ran very hot!  No fan on mine - the later ones had fans I believe.
> 
> I liked the Teslaplex better then the Power Port and the generic Hospital grade (then cryo'd) ones I have.  Will have to try a maestro.
> 
> PS Let me correct that - mine had the gray power port sockets not orange -


 
 Odd, the grey ones are installed in the later models. which likely had the Multiwave2...hmmm...you didn't like the sound quality. so strange as i've not heard anything bad about them before. The outlets however..... awful imho.
  
 The maestro outlet is by far the best outlet i've heard from any company! One is on order to replace the Gaofei..I likely will keep the SR Teslaplex in my P300 as I want to run tube gear sometime in the future. And the Teslaplex seems to synergize well for most tube gear. But too bright for digital gear especially the Sabre dacs...but even with my R2R master11 I prefer something else.
  
 Some of the P300's had a notorious failure rate with bleeding caps... that would affect the sound quality/dynamics obviously!  The p300 should bring out the best in your system if it was setup properly. 50hz-60hz is ideal for most systems. and I have mine set for 117v...after testing output at the outlet, it actually was outputting exactly 120v.
  
 Mine doesn't get very hot. its definitely warm. But the Multiwave2 fixes a lot of that supposedely. I don't use the Multiwave2 options. just pure sine wave. The fan is super quiet and works very well. I try not to use more than 100-150watts as the unit will warm up to the point it acts like a heater in my room. 100ish watts is ideal for this unit to stay warm, not hot... my m11, gustard U12 (now with ultra clean power), Paul Hynes SR3 and wife's NFB28 is plugged into it. about 150watts. or 110 approx without her amp turned on. 
  
 I'm considering upgrading all the caps with something fancy. I know there was a company doing upgrades for these a while back. But no longer.
  
  
 the maestro outlet...check these links!
  
 http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0114/audiophile_ac_outlets.htm
 http://www.cruzefirstaudio.com/maestro_outlet.htm


----------



## bimmer100

ccschua said:


> i m at 72 hours mark and had the PPA V2 fed with DIYINHK 0.8uV power supply.there is further improvement in sound.
> 
> next step will be to use PPA V3 with MOBO clock using OCXO PPA. after that will try with dual PC.


 
  
  
 I've been doing a lot of research and specifically on the ultra low noise power supplies. the DIYINHK is known to have some issues for audio related use. They apparently have some high frequency bleed over that can be audible or create new issues. I personally have not tried them, but definitely considered them. Some PSU's makers have informed me about this. I ended up going for the Paul Hynes SR3 which paul mentioned some amazing claims about it. I truly believe it's the best choice for powering the Paul Pang V3 card.
  
 I will copy and paste some of his emails to show you what he has said about the SR3. (also PM me for more info on it, he was willing to cut me an amazing deal for it, which I tried to offer up to RB2013 yet no interest, so there may be one available still for a smoking deal.. I will let you know the deets in a PM)
  
 ANYHOW. Paul wrote the following to me.
  
 :
  
_*"There is a comparison between the SR3 power supply and the Teddy Pardo on HiFi Pig at :-

http://hifipig.com/paul-hynes-sr3-power-supply/*_
  
_*The PR3 topology regulator circuit I use in the SR7 power supplies is my own proprietary discrete component design which I have optimised for ultra low noise, very wide operating bandwidth and exceptional transient response and settling time.  The PR3 is better than 4 dB quieter than the TPS7A4700 from DC to 100 KHz and the supply line rejection is > 4 dB better from DC to 1 KHz and up to 20 dB better from 1 KHz to 100 KHz. PR3 transient response and settling time is much better than the TPS."*_ End Quote, I believe this is the LDO used in the DIYINHK that he is comparing to!!! very interesting info!"
  
Paul also said _*" *__*The regulator circuit I use in the SR3 is 4 times quieter than typical battery supplies. The regulator circuit is exactly the same as the PR3 and latest versions so your sound quality will not suffer "*_ END quote.
  
I actually bought a SR3 at a discount from Paul since it was a PCB from an early revision that was not capable of higher voltages... NOT relevant for a 5v LPS for the Paul Pang, yet this SR3 is exactly the same performance as the new PCB designs. yet significant savings to my wallet 
  
I did however buy a brand new Teddy Pardo 5V LPS to compare this to. along with my Teradak 5v R-Core DC30w which I have for sale now on Headfi!!
  
The Teddy Pardo is a sweet LPS and is close to the performance of the Hynes, yet not as good. I'm either selling it, or using it for my wifes computer. I may be interested in your PPA V2 if you decide to sell it and upgrade to the V3. I would love for comparison, and actually install that in to my wifes computer and power it with the Tpardo lps! I just need the 2.5mm/5.5mm DC input on the PPA...but you likely opted to get the 2.1mm/5.5mm right?? 
  
Anyhow, I will likely order the Paul Pang V2 as well... or this new animal on the market that looks interesting from 
  
 Teddy Pardo 3A 5V LPS - ultra low noise, but not as low as the Paul Hynes SR3!

  
 http://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/teddy5-3.html
  
  
 The looks of the Pardo surely looks better to my eyes than the Hynes...but the Paul Hynes isn't too shabby either...especially with it's slick and sexy look silver cable option (which I had to have ) Especially after reading the review of the Hynes vs Pardo in the link I provided.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> That's with the Breeze?  Or just the PPA straight to DAC?  Which DAC?
> 
> Try a better power cord on the Breeze it seem to be especially sensitive to a better cord.
> 
> Cheers!


 
  
  
 I'm not surprised to hear that there is an improvement to sound by using an ultra low noise powered PPA2.... even a better LPS and PPA3 would further improve sound quality... At least it would get the Breeze an ideal source to begin with and truly work its magic to the full extent. 
  
 not just a new power cord, but clean power with a quality power cord would likely help the Breeze significantly...
  
  
 I can confirm that changing the power cord to my U12 provided a small upgrade, but pluging the U12 into my PSaudio P300 A/C regen made a world of a difference.  My u12 sounds SO MUCH BETTER, especially with all the mods done to it.  957 crysteks, panasonic caps and IC  swap for pinout hdmi i2s.
  
 I'm having paul hynes look at the U12 now to further improve it's power delivery. Personally I believe the U12 has potential for my system. As an HDMI i2s option, it's the one I prefer. Since the only output from the u12 that is able to send out a master clock is the i2s...the rest of the outputs sound like poo from the u12.  my Master11 is now getting a clock from the i2s HDMI out of the u12. had to turn off the PLL from my M11. But things can't sound any better, short of improving the power delivery in the U12.  I'm hoping Paul Hynes will be able to install a different transformer and regulator to get similar ultra low levels of power. I'm sure it would surpass performance of pretty much any DDC on the market.
  
  
 -T


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> That's with the Breeze?  Or just the PPA straight to DAC?  Which DAC?
> 
> Try a better power cord on the Breeze it seem to be especially sensitive to a better cord.
> 
> Cheers!


 


 Thats with the Breeze. and its to the MSB Analog DAC via coaxial. I can play DSD and SACD via DOP. this is new discovery.
  
 Will try dual OCXO soon, when I reach 250hours. the power cord to breeze is AC revive ultimate.
  
 I have the mad scientist NEO power cord hook up to the CAS. 
  
 what surprise me is that the LM2941 is inherently noisy as compared to the LT 3042, yet the sound is quite good. perhaps the dual rail helps. given a choice, I will DIY a separate R-core tranny with DIYINHK LT3042 to the clock and peripherals.


----------



## ccschua

bimmer100 said:


> _*"There is a comparison between the SR3 power supply and the Teddy Pardo on HiFi Pig at :-
> 
> http://hifipig.com/paul-hynes-sr3-power-supply/*_
> 
> ...


 
  
 I do have a TPS7A4700 LPS as well as a DIYINHK LT 3042 (which I am currently using). the LT 3042 is 0.8uV dBC with wide bandwidth while the TPS7A4700 is 4.7uV. I have compared them and ended up with LT3042, which I dont find any issues with it. Alex has used a lot of this in his new DAC mod. I am watching his mod closely (in mx-u8).


----------



## bimmer100

ccschua said:


> Thats with the Breeze. and its to the MSB Analog DAC via coaxial.
> 
> Will try dual OCXO soon, when I reach 250hours. the power cord to breeze is AC revive ultimate.
> 
> I have the mad scientist hook up to the CAS.




You don't mess around  an msb analog Dac! Nice!

I'm most interested in doing a custom Paul pang PC build with the ocxo controlled motherboard too. I'm going to buy parts from him soon and build a music server. I really think a solid linear power music server is the best foundation to achieve ultimate sound. And your Dac and amp can only sound it's best when you feed it pure beautiful sine waves. It's especially true when using femto clocks, they are very picky with voltage ripple. Standard power doesn't cut it... Even the basic clocks on the breeze are sensitive enough they need clean power. Fortunately the breeze has w good power delivery. But I believe upgrading those clocks to crystek 957's would really be a good upgrade over the stock clocks! 

Does he breeze output through all outputs a master clock signal? I'm not too familiar with it like I am with the gustard u12. The u12 is not good weigh any of its outputs other than the HDMI i2s. It's a noticeable difference! I would never consider using the u12 with any other output. Flip side is you need a good enough Dac to have HDMI i2s input! Which I believe is worth having! Sadly there are not many dacs that have this great feature.


----------



## ccschua

if you havent tried the Paul Pang mobo OCXO, you really got to think about it. its the next big revelation.
  
 Another guy in the forum actually uses 3 PPA OCXO with the last one for the SSD.
  
 I have tried the U12, sold it off. then heavily modded the U8 and now waiting to compare the U8 with the breeze. breeze has good potential.
  
 If you are really into HDMI I2S, tanly would be a good choice, now that it has revised the version with usb connection from the back.


----------



## bimmer100

ccschua said:


> Thats with the Breeze. and its to the MSB Analog DAC via coaxial. I can play DSD and SACD via DOP. this is new discovery.
> 
> Will try dual OCXO soon, when I reach 250hours. the power cord to breeze is AC revive ultimate.
> 
> ...




The lt3042 is quite good indeed. I'm looking into the LKS implementation of the amanero combo 384 two piece pcb. It uses the lt3042 ldo for its linear psu pcb. And the amanero was outfitted with the crystek 575's! About 180usd for this! I just need to figure out how to fit it properly in the master11 along with a small dedicate r10 rcore transformer. Quite a fun project. But that USB input would be very ideal for my needs.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> Odd, the grey ones are installed in the later models. which likely had the Multiwave2...hmmm...you didn't like the sound quality. so strange as i've not heard anything bad about them before. The outlets however..... awful imho.
> 
> The maestro outlet is by far the best outlet i've heard from any company! One is on order to replace the Gaofei..I likely will keep the SR Teslaplex in my P300 as I want to run tube gear sometime in the future. And the Teslaplex seems to synergize well for most tube gear. But too bright for digital gear especially the Sabre dacs...but even with my R2R master11 I prefer something else.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice link - I love that socket comparison.  I'm wondering as my amps are a Class A tube/SS intregrated.  I completely recapped with totl Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps and Nichicon FG and Silmic II's -this really smoothed out the sound.  My DAC is a ECC99 tubed APL NWOjr.  So maybe for my system the Teslaplex is perfect - with the big Mundorf cap upgrade I did early this year ($1000 in caps and Mundorf Silver/Teflon wiring  DIY) and the major improvement in my upstream DDC - just the right balance.
  
 My experiments with the PS Audio was 10 yrs ago - so my memory is a bit foggy - but I do remember the gray power port outlets.  I tried every setting possible - but none were quite right for me.  But that was on my old mega system - Conrad Johnson ACT2 pre - Response Audio V-Capped Hurricane mono blocks - Nordost Valhalla cables - Talon Firebird Diamons -dual Velodyne DD-12s.
  
 I also had a Nordost Thor Power Conditioner - that replaced the PS Audio - then the Richard Grays.  So much gear I start to lose track. 
 I would love to try a Audience adedpt Response Teflon aR6-TP - a friend has one - it is amazingly good.  $5000 it better be!
  
 I have to say after a couple of decades of intense audio rolling -  my system now is the best ever - and 1/20th the cost.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I'm not surprised to hear that there is an improvement to sound by using an ultra low noise powered PPA2.... even a better LPS and PPA3 would further improve sound quality... At least it would get the Breeze an ideal source to begin with and truly work its magic to the full extent.
> 
> not just a new power cord, but clean power with a quality power cord would likely help the Breeze significantly...
> 
> ...


 

 I agree - that's a big investment on the USB card side of things - especially for a DDC with external power. 
  
 Since the Breeze requires absolutely no USB power - I'm actually just completely blocking the USB power lines in two ways - a Jitterbug I modded to be a VBUS isolator as well and using a Lightspeed 2G split cable - with only the data line connected.
  
 I did some experimenting with the SotM USB card and late last year a couple of El Fidelity USB cards- really didn't do much - but create Windows issues.
 Now the PPA's are in a whole other league - but still wondering if dropping $800 there is worth the payoff?  Especially after the Regen/LPS was a fail on the main system.
  
 Now with the combined cost of around $700 for the Art Audio PB4X4 Pro/Breeze DU-U8/Cerious Graphene/Lightspeed 2G - the payoff has been immense.
  
 I guess another move would be running the entire PC on LPS like an Uptone JS-2 - improving further on the very low ripple fanless switcher I have now.
 That's $900.  The JS-2 is very versatile and has the horsepower to easily run a PC and a USB card.   Where as the Teddy or Haynes have to be built for a single voltage - the JS-2 can run 5V, 7V, 9V or 12V.
  
 http://uptoneaudio.com/products/js-2-linear-power-supply
  


> *Dual-output, choke-filtered linear power supply with four user-selectable DC output voltages.  *
> Two independently adjustable, separately regulated outputs; Voltage choices are user set from the back panel: 5V, 7V, 9V, or 12V.
> Guaranteed current capability is 5 amps continuous from either output at any voltage setting.
> (Up to 6.8 amps split between outputs, depending upon DC voltage combination; Instantaneous capability of up to 10A).
> ...


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> Thats with the Breeze. and its to the MSB Analog DAC via coaxial. I can play DSD and SACD via DOP. this is new discovery.
> 
> Will try dual OCXO soon, when I reach 250hours. the power cord to breeze is AC revive ultimate.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes very nice DAC!  That 'Music Renderer' tech looks very promising.  MSB R2R DACs are really sota - only missing a tube output option.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 The LM2941 LDO PSRR is one of the best out there, esp at higher frequencies, the stock LDO in the U12 is no where close, same for the MX-U8.  I wouldn't call it 'inherently noisy'  maybe in relation to the LT3042 are better for sure.  But certainly not the U12's LM317T or the MX-U8's LT1963.
  
 Note:
  
 Breeze LM2941 PSRR @1Mhz -68dB
 page 8, figure 9 http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm2941.pdf
  
 Melodious LT1963 PSRR @1Mhz -20dB
 page 8 bottom http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/1963fc.pdf
  
 DIYinHK ultra low noise ps board LT3042 PSRR @1Mhz -78dB
 http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/3042fa.pdf


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> I agree - that's a big investment on the USB card side of things - especially for a DDC with external power.
> 
> Since the Breeze requires absolutely no USB power - I'm actually just completely blocking the USB power lines in two ways - a Jitterbug I modded to be a VBUS isolator as well and using a Lightspeed 2G split cable - with only the data line connected.
> 
> ...


 
  
 what do you mean when you say "especially fo ra DDC with external power" are you referring to the U12?
  
  
 the PPA3 is NOT a ddc. its just a usb 3.0 card with a very sensitive Femto clock. That femto clock requires external power to function properly...like most femto clocks, they will work well without a good linear power source but not as advertised. The high end power supply for my PPA3 is not for the needs of powering a DDC or my dac...but simply the femto clock on the PPA3. It surely doesn't hurt to have such clean power running throuhg the usb power..certainly better than dirty power that potentially could affect the digital part of the usb cable...or the data section. Noisy power can do that. but not clean power from the pardo or hynes. 
 SOTM stuff absolutely sucks imho. it's buggy for one, but just way overpriceded for what they deliver.  The eifidelity is better imho and a fraction of the cost. But the eifidielity isn't all that great if powered from the bus or their crappy external smps connection. with a teradak lps it was ok. 
  
 I'm going to have Paul look into the U12 and see if the LDO can be upgraded along with the transformer. Maybe the LT3042 would be a good choice but I havent even looked into it to see what would be compatible or ideal for the u12. Just plugging the U12 into the PSaudio p300 made a big difference since the power is super clean to begin with.
  
 the JS-2 power supply is insanely overpriced imho... i'd rather opt for a an ultra low noise linear psu from simon tuned. They make insanely good psu's up to 300watts and around .09mv  ripple or 1mv under full load. much better deal than the JS-2 and better spec'd. 
 http://www.uuorder.com/Product/37155248719/
 run a whole pc on LPS!!!
  
 I have been considering one for my media service build. will have it spec'd with 5v, multiple 12v outputs and 3.3v outputs. perfect for a small pc build. I'm set on getting an OCXO controlled motherboard from Paul Pang. 
  
 and the hynes can be built with multiple outputs as well. everything from Hynes is custom BTW. anything you can dream up can be build. Teddy Pardo as well. they don't just have ONE output. but often are ordered this way. maybe of them can be converted to run other voltages too.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> what do you mean when you say "especially fo ra DDC with external power" are you referring to the U12?
> 
> 
> the PPA3 is NOT a ddc. its just a usb 3.0 card with a very sensitive Femto clock. That femto clock requires external power to function properly...like most femto clocks, they will work well without a good linear power source but not as advertised. The high end power supply for my PPA3 is not for the needs of powering a DDC or my dac...but simply the femto clock on the PPA3. It surely doesn't hurt to have such clean power running throuhg the usb power..certainly better than dirty power that potentially could affect the digital part of the usb cable...or the data section. Noisy power can do that. but not clean power from the pardo or hynes.
> ...


 

 Well what I mean is the Breeze requires no USB power - I believe the U12 does require it to activate the relay inside.  Unless it's bypassed - which can be done.  I think the reason folks were going to the USb cards was to decouple their USB powered DDC's from the PC's dirty switching power supply (M2Tech HiFace, Audiophileo, etc...).  The advent of externally powered USB bridges (DDC's) is fairly recent.  Of course there were alternative powering schemes and approached the M2Tech Evo for one.  The need for ultra-clean USB power is negated by the use of a DDC that is completely AC powered and VBUS isolated.  Not saying that the PC's internal USB bus can not be bettered (that would require a PC LPS) - or that a PPA card would not help prevent data packet losses.  I'm sure it would - but that is only a partial solution.
  
 Now the PPA would be excellent to feed directly into a DAC equiped with a decent USB input - esp the OCXO version - as it would serve as the reclocker with a far better clock then the OEM TXCO JYEC's or even the CCHD-957's.  With a LPS OXCO PPA it would seem to me a logical choice to bypass a DDC and go directly into the DAC's USB board.  But then as the Uptone folks mention - internal USB boards can corrupt the PS of the DAC itself with 'packet noise' feeding back in to the DAC's PS system (and it would bepend on the quality of the DAC's internal USB board clocks).
  
 So it seems a bit counter productive to take a PPA OCXO reclocked USB data feed, to only be reclocked by an inferior TXCO, or worse a XO as is typically the case (see the Gustard U12 picture below).  But as with all things audio - the proof is in the listening! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Thanks for the link on the LPS I'll check that out.

 Cheers


----------



## rb2013

For those interested in exploring the PPA stuff - sweet stuff!
  
 Paul Professional Audio Studio http://ppastudio.blogspot.com
  
 Here is some info on the USB cards:
  
 PPA V2 card $129:
  


 TXCO clock:

  
 PPA V3: $429: OCXO clock!  Very sweet indeed.

  
 PPA V4 OCXO separate board:

  
  
 As mentioned this should be fed it's own power from an ultra clean source - linear power supply.  Teddy, Hynes,etc..
  
 Now this can feed a DAC directly if the DAC has it's own built in USB board (like the Yggy MB with a Gen3) or to a DDC like the Gustard or Breeze if your DAC has no USB board  - or a poorly designed one with a shared power supply internally.


----------



## bimmer100

another cheap option is the Volent USB card.
  
 http://www.volent.com.hk/?page_id=632
BEST for CAS audiophiles with VOLENT Labs latest USB 3.0 PCIe ultra low jitter clock mod card with discrete PSU, you can be sure your outputed USB signal is governed by ultra lowest jitter clock.  the sonic is more musical and the soundstage will be darker and wider than your motherboard USB port.  the treble have be more airy and you will hear more detail.  The NEC USB chipset will be goverened by a ultra low jitter clock with special selected  OCC Silver wire.

Discrete PSU will be power by OCC Copper with through SATA port to ensure purified power supply.

Lowest Latency you can sure


 With VOLENT Labs Ultra low jitter clock usb card,  you can sure your Windows Latency will be lowest which got the best definition. with a fine tuned WIndows 7/8/8.1,  your Windows latency will be as low as 43us to 51us.


Ultra low jitter clock with discrete PSU
 Support WIndows 7, 8, 8.1 ,  drivers need to be install
Suport Ubuntu Linux
Please ensure you have one PCIe slot on your motherboard ,  and one SATA Power which can power the USB card
*Reaneas* usb chipset ,  2 USB 3.0 Port at the back plate and 2 x Internal USB 3.0 port for face plate port (not provided).
Full Height and low profile back plate will be provided

 Suggested Retail Price:  USD119


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> another cheap option is the Volent USB card.
> 
> http://www.volent.com.hk/?page_id=632
> BEST for CAS audiophiles with VOLENT Labs latest USB 3.0 PCIe ultra low jitter clock mod card with discrete PSU, you can be sure your outputed USB signal is governed by ultra lowest jitter clock.  the sonic is more musical and the soundstage will be darker and wider than your motherboard USB port.  the treble have be more airy and you will hear more detail.  The NEC USB chipset will be goverened by a ultra low jitter clock with special selected  OCC Silver wire.
> ...


 
 Thanks for another great link - that one is very interesting Linux support.  Can any of these be used in a Mac Mini?
  
 It looks like the same clock as in the Breeze, Tanly, and Regen - although tough to see at that angle the exact markings.
  
 Regen Amber:

  
 Breeze DU-U8:

  
 Tanly:


----------



## rb2013

Now the Melodious originally used a TCXO like in the PPA V2 but then on revision switched to the XO like in the above:
  
 Original MX-U8:

  
 Then after having multiple issues the revised design:


  Now the latest incarnation they kept the XO clock for USB:


----------



## rb2013

The Curious USB is in the house - tonight a face-off against the 2G!
  
 BTW there is a 10G split .8 meter for sale in the classifieds for $499 - tempting...
  

  
 PS Update - Ok putting the Curious into my office system - it would not work with the modded Jitterbug/VBUS isolator - at all!  Tried uninstalling Chodi's Luckit then reboot fresh install - PC would not 'see' the Breeze.  Tried without the Jitterbug/VBUS blocker - success!
  
 Listening to the awesome Alfred Brendel - Schubert Piano Sonatas.  Well a bit lusher and well a bit flatter then the Supra that was playing perfectly right before.  No where near as impressive as the Lightspeed 2g (cold out of the box new) was over the well burnt in Supra.  Would not spend another dollar over the Supra for this cable in my office system - no way no how.
  
 After hearing this track agian - tried to slip the modded JB back in (this will sometimes work on bauky gear) - no go - Foobar says Jplay ASIO fail.  I guess the Curious needs to have the pin 1 VBUS 5+VDC active - big strike against it for me.
  
 About to pull the trigger on a second 2G for the office - been missing it while it's been doing duty in the main system.  The Paypal finger is twitching...but I will hold off until later tonight to give the Curious a go against the mighty 2G there...


----------



## ccschua

I cant wait for the 250hour. so I slot in the 2 x PPA OCXO. its easy as my pc has available slot to do it.
  
 overall the effects is so much greater than the PPA V2. Playing with dual PC mode. the OCXO I have for USB is split type. there is a long lead that connect to the USB card.


----------



## rb2013

OK did the USB cable show down last night for a few hours - very interesting results...
  
 Here is the ranking in my main system:
  
 #1 Lightspeed 2G 1M - by far the best- incisive, uber detailed, big and deep sound stage, greater dynamics, clarity and imaging to die for.  Never etched or harsh - very musical
 #2 Curious USB 1M - softer a bit tamer then the 2G - nice in it's own way.  Excellent detail (although the 2G is much greater).  Narrower and shallower sound stage.
 #3 Forza Twin Copper Split 1.5M - Excellent for the money- warm, rich tone, excellent detail (but again holds no candle to the 2G).  Keeping this one.
 #4 Supra USB 2M - Nice warm presentation.  Cymbals splashy lack realism.  A whole in the middle of the soundstage - made my Maggies sound like boxes.  Selling this one.
  
 No question about it the Lightspeed did things that none of the other cables could - they projected the most detailed realistic imaging in a massively deep and wide sound stage.  The Curious was no where near as good.  The 2G was just as warm and rich in tone - but the clarity and extraordinary detail where jaw dropping.  Much more dynamic and exciting - the Curious a bit boring in comparison.  Went through 6-7 songs I know well - and each time the 2G brought new life and revealed previously hidden details - I just hated to take it out and switch cables.  At least for my system the 2G is the perfect match.  Now I have tubed DACs.  In my office system the 2G actually shined even brighter.  For those with SS DAC's and D-S chips, esp the Sabre DACs, you may need to tame their inherent edginess and brightness and may need the Curious to do so...or the Forza!  In some ways I liked the Forza better then the Curious - although the Curious had better detail. But not better focus.
  
 I love this Forza Copper cable - if I didn't have the 2G - I could live with it easily.  Warm and lushness in tone - nice sound staging - presenting a complete 10 ft wide presentation.  Not the 14ft wide of the 2G - but no holes in the picture.  For those with those Sabre DACs this may be the low cost solution.  On cymbals just a bit of splash, not as bad a the Supra.  Speaking of...
  
 The Supra for the money is a great value - but I would spring for the extra $30 and get the Forza Twin Copper Split.  The Supra has nice rich tone - but it's detail is masked and the presentation the least realistic of all the cables.  Cymbals were not to good.  Muddled and lacking 3D clarity and projection.  Sound staging was pretty bad - with a 4 foot hole in the middle of the narrower sound stage - vocals recessed in a weird way. Made the planar panel Maggies 1.6QRs sound like box speakers.  Voiding much of their magical ability to project a life sized and realistic image.  This one is going on the sale block.
  
 Well I ordered another 2G today - for the office system - where it made an even bigger difference.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## bimmer100

So the testing begins again. I've ordered the 2G 1meter to test, along with the Anticables 1meter 3.1 usb cable. and the Supra 1.5meter, Pangea 1.5meter.
  
 why not, I'm surprised you found the supra to have splashy sound. So I will retest. I've not tested it on a sabre dac, but will do so on my wife's NFB28 as well as my Master 11 R2R dac. will be interesting to see the difference.
  
 I'm currently in the process of converting my Gustard u12 to dc input from the SR3 Hynes supply. I'm gutting the transformer, and ac components. Maybe will install a dexa 5v regulator or see about just using pure hynes dc. Currently Paul and I are discussing that. Getting the U12 to have ultra clean power will surely make it a DDC that will sound great. Especially with the i2s hdmi output and using the 957 clocks. They pretty much are femto level in most situations. The PPA3 ocxo has nothing to do with the audio clock, only usb clock. I may consider to see what options I can do for upgrading the USB clock in the U12, but from what I remember, the same clock is used in the amanero and it's mostly femto level as well, and very very close to it.Phase Jitter 0.04~2.41ps (10Hz~1MHz), Total Phase Jitter (RMS) 2.42ps .  same clock in the breeze, same in the amanero, same in the LKS amanero. likely because it's good 
  
 -T


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> So the testing begins again. I've ordered the 2G 1meter to test, along with the Anticables 1meter 3.1 usb cable. and the Supra 1.5meter, Pangea 1.5meter.
> 
> why not, I'm surprised you found the supra to have splashy sound. So I will retest. I've not tested it on a sabre dac, but will do so on my wife's NFB28 as well as my Master 11 R2R dac. will be interesting to see the difference.
> 
> ...


 

 I'll be interested in your cable rolling results.
  
 Yes you are correct on the PPA that is just the 24Mhz USB clock - but I believe it still gets reclocked by the Gustard U12 XO 24 Mhz.  All the clocks I had shown were the 24Mhz USB ones.
 One question if the stock USB 24Mhz XO clock in the U12, MX-U8, DU-U8 is femto level - what's the purpose of an OCXO in the PPA?  Seems like $429 is a lot of money for not much gain?  OCXO marketing hype?
  
 From Uptone on the XO they use in the Regen and John Swenson's comments on the importance of the USB clock (not as important as the clocks that feeds the DAC - your 957's).  So in light of that is seems the PPA OCXO is way overkill - but again this is all theory - what sounds best is what's important!


> Originally Posted by *JohnSwenson*
> 
> ​ _Something very strange happened, I actually have a few minutes free so I can talk about this.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Of course the modders are already in action - got to love this hobby!  Here is the mod Swenson refers to and the Neutron Star clock.
  


> I've recently upgraded the clock of my Regen Amber:​​ ​ Attachment 19781​​ ​ Attachment 19782​​ ​ The clock I've chosen is a NewClassD Neutron Star Reference Clock with 24.000 MHz. The clock features an own separate low-noise power supply and galvanic insulation towards the Regen. For further Information check out here:​www.newclassd.com​​ ​ The careful disassembly of Regen's clock was a quite easy job to do.​​ ​ The clock upgrade resulted in a further, significant increase of SQ. Definitely greater than I've expected when I decided to take this experiment. Subjectively said it is about doubling the positive impact Regen Amber brought to my system!​​ ​ There is again an instantly noticable portion of increased air, room information, realism and emotion in the overall sound. Quite unbelievable and breathtaking. Sending a chill down my spine during listening to already well-known tracks.​​ ​ So I would just like to encourage the diyers around here to take this step. It's more than worthy the efford and extra costs and it literally takes the Regen into extremes.​​ ​ All the best, Henning​


 


 http://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=36
  
 I'll be interested to see the DC mod you re working on -that would be interesting.
  
 Another solution would be to have Paul design a new ultra clean 115V to 9V power supply and feed that right into the U12's AC input lines.  I thought of doing that with an R-Core transformer - but have not had time to mess with that.

  
 The Breeze uses a 7.5V input


----------



## GCTD

So how exactly does one run 32bit 384khz on Gustard U12? Mine only goes up to 24bit 192khz in Windows 8.1.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> I'll be interested in your cable rolling results.
> 
> Yes you are correct on the PPA that is just the 24Mhz USB clock - but I believe it still gets reclocked by the Gustard U12 XO 24 Mhz.  All the clocks I had shown were the 24Mhz USB ones.
> One question if the stock USB 24Mhz XO clock in the U12, MX-U8, DU-U8 is femto level - what's the purpose of an OCXO in the PPA?  Seems like $429 is a lot of money for not much gain?  OCXO marketing hype?
> ...


 
 thats odd, my U12 is different, it uses a 7V transformer.


----------



## rb2013

That is interesting - the last of the three U12's I had had 7V as well


----------



## rb2013

gctd said:


> So how exactly does one run 32bit 384khz on Gustard U12? Mine only goes up to 24bit 192khz in Windows 8.1.


 
 Well first you have to have a 32bit 384K file - you can up sample a 24/96 - but that won't increase the bit rate.  DxD  (24/354K) can be downloaded from the 2L website:
 http://www.2l.no
  
 You can also download DSD 64 and 128 files.  For Spdif you can use SoX resampler in Foobar to downsample DxD to 24/192 or 24/176k.  Also Foobar has a DSD to PCM converter that works pretty good.
  
 Then you'll need to run i2s to a DAC that can process that high a bit stream.


----------



## bimmer100

abartels said:


> Pinout is not correct since U12 has LM317D2T (surface mounted).
> I read some reviews about Belleson on diy fora, Belleson seems NOT to regulate as it should, it does filter noise but not regulate, so i am going for the NewClassD.
> 
> If you replace Philips (BC) caps 2200uF-25V with Panasonic FC 4700uF-25V like i did, then there's room enough for the UWB
> ...


 
 I ordered the Dexa Class D 5V regulator, do you have a little instructions to the best way to swap this for the LM317? What other parts would be needed to? you mention 10N MKP? where can I get those? are those wima? I'm better at replacing parts than understanding them


----------



## bimmer100

well snap. I was putting some EMI/RF 3M film stuff on my U12 tonight and somehow caused a short and blew the transformer...time to convert it to DC now. It burned a hole through the board on the top primary connection. I plugged it in for all but a split second and hurt a fizzle. nothing else seems to be damaged. 
  
  
 :/


----------



## abartels

bimmer100 said:


> well snap. I was putting some EMI/RF 3M film stuff on my U12 tonight and somehow caused a short and blew the transformer...time to convert it to DC now. It burned a hole through the board on the top primary connection. I plugged it in for all but a split second and hurt a fizzle. nothing else seems to be damaged.
> 
> 
> :/


 
 That's not good to hear  I suppose the best way to revive it is external psu. But, maybe it's an option to go the way of Breeze since it performs very good (as rb2013 says).
  
 To connect Dexa, the pinouts are as showed in the dexa picture. The 10N MKP it's 10 nano farad and mkp is polypropylene film capacitor, wima is good.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> well snap. I was putting some EMI/RF 3M film stuff on my U12 tonight and somehow caused a short and blew the transformer...time to convert it to DC now. It burned a hole through the board on the top primary connection. I plugged it in for all but a split second and hurt a fizzle. nothing else seems to be damaged.
> 
> 
> :/


 
 Sorry to hear that!  I would also avoid using it on the XMOS and LODs as they generate heat and the 3M shielding can trap that heat.  I see that the BReeze actually uses a heat sink on the XMOS - unlike any of the others. 
  

  
  


abartels said:


> That's not good to hear  I suppose the best way to revive it is external psu. But, maybe it's an option to go the way of Breeze since it performs very good (as rb2013 says).
> 
> To connect Dexa, the pinouts are as showed in the dexa picture. The 10N MKP it's 10 nano farad and mkp is polypropylene film capacitor, wima is good.


 
 As soon as the Holidays are over I will order a third Breeze to experiment on.  Clock upgrades, different caps, etc... We'll see if any of that helps.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## stuartmc

bimmer100 said:


> well snap. I was putting some EMI/RF 3M film stuff on my U12 tonight and somehow caused a short and blew the transformer...time to convert it to DC now. It burned a hole through the board on the top primary connection. I plugged it in for all but a split second and hurt a fizzle. nothing else seems to be damaged.




The 3m ab5100s has metal particles in it, so it is conductive where there is no coating. When you cut the stuff, the edges Will be conductive. You have to be careful to not let those edges come in direct contact with the board.

I also agree that it is best not to apply on components that are effected by heat. Clock crystals are definitely effected by heat, so I leave it off those. Otherwise, I find the stuff very beneficial -especially in shielding the power supply from the rest of the components.


----------



## bimmer100

abartels said:


> That's not good to hear  I suppose the best way to revive it is external psu. But, maybe it's an option to go the way of Breeze since it performs very good (as rb2013 says).
> 
> To connect Dexa, the pinouts are as showed in the dexa picture. The 10N MKP it's 10 nano farad and mkp is polypropylene film capacitor, wima is good.


 
  
 No more power issues with the U12...  the transformer is gutted and now running on pure linear power. 
  
 will just gut the a/c components to make more room on the PCB. Right now i'm just using my R-Core Teradak DC30W and have it rigged up to send out 7V out instead of the stock 5V setting. It's pretty easy to switch up. 
  
 I was going to sell it, but maybe will just use my Teddy Pardo to power the U12.
  
  
 Honestly I am not interested in the Breeze since it doesn't have i2s Hdmi.
  
 on the U12, all outputs sound infererior when compared to the i2s Hdmi out. I'm not surprised that the U12 didn't get better reviews if one was using other outputs.
  
 -T
  
  
 Not sure if I need the LM317T in there, may gut it and not run a regulator since the linear psu should be doing all that work now. Although the Dexa new classD is likely better than the one that is in the Teradak, but definitely not better than the Teddy Pardo. So if I bypass the LM317t, i'm not sure the best way to do that while removing it from the PCB.


----------



## bimmer100

YES, it was the edges that caused the problem. The transformer top right primary shorted. I did a quick job and overlooked it. Fortunately nothing else was damaged. It actually sounds better now that it's running on pure dc linear power.


----------



## bimmer100

Do anyone think it would be possible to get HDMI i2s input on the breeze? If I was to salvage parts from the u12 and replace the rj45 output of the breeze? Would love to know if this would be possible. I truly with the breeze had HDMI out. :/


----------



## bimmer100

So i am going to order an HDMI i2s output pcb from audio-gd and look into wiring it into a breeze in replacement of the rj45 port. Can someone show me a detailed photo of the rj45 port and how it looks inside the unit. It should be able to be wired up easily as its standard i2s input. And maybe, just maybe I will order a breeze if so.  I like doing things custom and sounds like a fun project to try. Albeit the clocks in the breeze would likely be update to crystek 957 or 575z
But if they are 22 and 24's than maybe some femto clocks would be ideal.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> So i am going to order an HDMI i2s output pcb from audio-gd and look into wiring it into a breeze in replacement of the rj45 port. Can someone show me a detailed photo of the rj45 port and how it looks inside the unit. It should be able to be wired up easily as its standard i2s input. And maybe, just maybe I will order a breeze if so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Here you go - that would be an interesting experiment.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Here you go - that would be an interesting experiment.


 
 Hmmm, at least I know what i'm dealing with. a PITA! tight spot and no leads. so it's tough to say. I guess i'd have to buy one and take it apart.


----------



## ccschua

I ordered the SITIME clock, which can be seen on the black XO. breeze actually recommended SITIME clock to the JYEC.
  
 I am stuck as I cant handle SMT and would need a heat gun to do this. hi Abartel, any idea how to replace with crystek without using heat gun?


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> I ordered the SITIME clock, which can be seen on the black XO. breeze actually recommended SITIME clock to the JYEC.
> 
> I am stuck as I cant handle SMT and would need a heat gun to do this. hi Abartel, any idea how to replace with crystek without using heat gun?


 

 Too bad you didn't get the Talema version - it is better.
  
 I assume your are talking about the TXCO SiTime SiT5000?
  
 Better phase noise then the generic JYEC TXCO - but not nearlyas good as the NDK SD or Crystek CCHD-957:
  
 SiTIme SiT5000 TXCO Phase Noise: @1kHz -140db, @10kHz -150db @100kHz -150db (to bad no readings at 10Hz and 100Hz).
  
 JYEC TXCO: @1kHz -125db (only numbers available - anyone have an English data sheet?)
  
 NDK SD TXCO: @1kHz -154db, @10kHz -156db, @100khz -156db
  
 Crystek CCHD-957: @1kHz -149db, @10kHz -162db, @100kHz -168db
  
 http://www.sitime.com/products/datasheets/sit5000/SiT5000-datasheet.pdf


----------



## abartels

I didn't use a heatgun, I soldered it with solder iron, freehand,,,, it's a hell of a job but doable if using converter boards.


----------



## ccschua

I have ordered a heat gun with solder paste. it will me my first time trying out. I do have a Talema (not Taema) tranny.
  
 seriously I am considering the diyinhk pro3A. its quite promising. furthermore, I can switch it to use USB power, for which I am already using the LT 3042. just that the 2xLT3042 may not be enough to power 2xOCXO and 1xpro3A.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> I have ordered a heat gun with solder paste. it will me my first time trying out. I do have a Talema (not Taema) tranny.
> 
> seriously I am considering the diyinhk pro3A. its quite promising. furthermore, I can switch it to use USB power, for which I am already using the LT 3042. just that the 2xLT3042 may not be enough to power 2xOCXO and 1xpro3A.


 

 I'm curious to see how that heat gun goes - it should be a lot easier. 
  
 The pictures you posted have the generic Chinese green BingZi transformer -the Talema is blue colored.

  
  
 The Pro3a is interesting - that and the PUC 2 Lite I will give that a try at some point in the future.  The Pro3A can be powered with any nice 5-6VC external linear power supply like the R-Core TeraDak DC-30W or even better a Paul Hynes (highly recommended vs using USB power).  I've been posting and considering the Pro3A for some time now - well I decided to give one a try.  I'm hoping and assuming it does not require any USB power for an activation relay (like the U12) - like the Breeze.
  
 Advantages:  Ultra low noise NDK NZ25290SD clocks pre-installed, Ultra low noise 1.0uVrms regulator installed, runs on 5-6VDC external power, relatively inexpensive $168.
  
 Disadvantage: SPDIF Coax and optical output only.  Like the PUC2 Lite which is SPDIF AES only output, no i2s at all.  This is no problem for me as I use SPDIF coax exclusively.  Needs an expensive external linear power supply for top sound another $100-$350.
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/97-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html
  
 Note the website is likely incorrect on the external DC plug - probably should have read 2.5mm (the std) not 5.5mm.



 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> I didn't use a heatgun, I soldered it with solder iron, freehand,,,, it's a hell of a job but doable if using converter boards.


 

 Alex - you should have been a brain surgeon.  Those NDK SD clocks are exceedingly small!


----------



## rb2013

Just noticed something very cool on the DIYinHK PRO3A - they use an ultra low noise NDK SD clock for USB as well as audio!!!
  
  
 With Uptone's John Swenson speaking of USB 'Packet Noise' in the 8kHz range these NDK SD's should be far superior as USB reclockers to the XO's found everywhere else.
  
 Well those NDK SD's (red line) rival OCXO clocks (green line)  in the lower frequencies for ultra low noise:


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Just noticed something very cool on the DIYinHK PRO3A - they use a ultra low noise NDK SD clock for USB as well as audio!!!
> 
> 
> With Uptone's John Swenson speaking of USB 'Packet Noise' in the 8kHz range these NDK SD's should be far superior as USB reclockers to the XO's found everywhere else.
> ...


 
  
 That's one of the reasons I choose the isolated I2S interface from diyinhk, it also has NDK-SD for xmos 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 About brainsurgery: my eyes are old,,,,, and yes I had a lot troubles soldering those tiny bast...s


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> That's one of the reasons I choose the isolated I2S interface from diyinhk, it also has NDK-SD for xmos
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Well the Pro3a should be here in a few weeks for a listen.  We'll see how it sounds.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## ccschua

thanks for heads up. that will mean my surgery works can be postponed. wonder if you might want to consider the DIYINHK LT 3042 modules too.
  
 will just sit back and enjoy the music.


----------



## m0reilly

ccschua said:


> ...will just sit back and enjoy the music.


 
 this...
 happy holidays all


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> thanks for heads up. that will mean my surgery works can be postponed. wonder if you might want to consider the DIYINHK LT 3042 modules too.
> 
> will just sit back and enjoy the music.


 
 No I will just run the TeraDak At 5.5VDC into the external power input.  I would still do the clock replacement on your Breeze to see the differences.  Did you order the SITime clocks?
  


m0reilly said:


> this...
> happy holidays all


 
 Same here!


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> No I will just run the TeraDak At 5.5VDC into the external power input.  I would still do the clock replacement on your Breeze to see the differences.  Did you order the SITime clocks?
> 
> Same here!


 
  
 My unit is ordered with the SITIME option. I am waiting for the heat gun to arrive to do a clock swap.


----------



## bimmer100

http://hifimediy.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=176 
  
 anyone try this HDMI i2s interface? looks interesting to me. low jitter spec, not sure the clocks though.
  
  
*Introduction *
This is the UH1 without the DAC part. It is a pure high quality USB to i2s/DSD (over HDMI), COAX and OPT. This also has i2s/HDMI input (HDMI to USB)
 It is based on the Savitech SA9227 asynchronous USB receiver clocked by two TCXO oscillators.
Two quality TCXO are used as the master clock to control the timing. This asynchronous USB transfer mode will give this device the responsibility to clock the data transfer instead of of your computer which has a clock of lesser quality with more noise and jitter introduced.
It accepts up to 384kHz sample rates and 16/24/32 bit. No drivers are necessary on MAC and linux computers! On Windows it can work without drivers up to 96kHz/24bit and with ASIO drivers up to 384/32. (Note that not all programs support ASIO). There is a switch that switches between Low and High sample rate mode. When set to Low, it works up to 96/24 with no drivers needed in Windows.
It utilises the USB port for power, so no external power supply is required. Also the outputs and inputs are ground isolated from USB.

*Windows driver:*
Download here (updated april 16th). New driver supports Win 10 here.
*SPECIFICATIONS*
*Inputs:*
USB INPUT:

Asynchronous USB transfer with two TCXO as master clock
USB receiver Savitech SA9227
Inputs are ground isolated from USB
Supported sample rates: 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192, 352.8 and 384kHz
Supported bitrates: 16, 24 and 32 bits
Works in either Full speed or High Speed USB transfer mode selectable with a switch ("L" "H"). No drivers required in MAC/Linux in both full and high speed modes. Windows ASIO needs drivers for High Speed mode only.
We are using two (expensive) TCXO to act as master clock.  45.1584MHz for 44.1, 88.2, 176.4, 352.8MHz sample rates, and  49.152MHz for 32,48, 96, 192, 384kHz sample rates. The USB transfer is clocked by the TCXO directly. This is better than PLL async mode and offers close to zero jitter. PLL async mode has ~30ps jitter, which is already quite low, but not as good as when clocked from TCXO directly.
 SPDIF/OPTICAL/i2s(HDMI) INPUT:

To USB/computer only! It doesn't convert i2s to the COAX/SPDIF outputs.
SPDIF Support samples rates up to 192kHz and 16/24/32 bit.
 *Outputs:*
DIGITAL OUTPUTS:

DSD/I2S using HDMI port. Here is a linked drawing with the pinout for DSD and I2s.* Note - this It not compatible with "normal" HDMI devices.* The HDMI port is only used as a convenient connector and a way to send i2s balanced which improves signal quality. The DSD signal is also balanced. The pinout is made so that there is no harm done if you should connect it to a normal HDMI device.
Optical output
Coaxial output​
Outputs are ground isolated from USB
 Size: 85x70x24mm
_mod: ud227_
- See more at: http://hifimediy.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=176#sthash.iMyiAwhQ.dpuf


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> My unit is ordered with the SITIME option. I am waiting for the heat gun to arrive to do a clock swap.


 

 So Breeze installed the SITIME clocks for you?  Which SITIME clocks?


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> http://hifimediy.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=176
> 
> anyone try this HDMI i2s interface? looks interesting to me. low jitter spec, not sure the clocks though.
> 
> ...


 

 Wow looks interesting.  First time I have heard of Savitech SA992 reciever.  Any nudies?


----------



## rb2013

Found them - nothing exceptional - std Chinese OEM TXCO clocks.  Elcheapo clock for USB.
  
 I guess the only thing unqie is that Savitech:


----------



## ahendler

Got the Breeze I2S to work with myMaster 7. Sounds excellent. Similar to the Melius
 Alan


----------



## rb2013

ahendler said:


> Got the Breeze I2S to work with myMaster 7. Sounds excellent. Similar to the Melius
> Alan


 

 Nice - any tricks?


----------



## crazychile

So I understand that the Melodius is repored to be better than the U12. But howmuch better? If the Melodius were scored as a 100 as a reference, what number would be assigned to the U12?

The reason I ask is because I want to try running usb to AES/EBU to run into a Yggdrasil when I get one in the near future. I don't want to spend much to try this, and The Melodius isn't currently available in silver. The rest of my gear is silver so I would like to avoid a black box in the rack. I don't have any desire to mod either converter, but I will be able to use a Regen to feed whatever box I choose. If the Gustard is really close in performance, I'd just go for that. If the Melodius is heads above, I may just wait until silver is available.


----------



## rb2013

crazychile said:


> So I understand that the Melodius is repored to be better than the U12. But howmuch better? If the Melodius were scored as a 100 as a reference, what number would be assigned to the U12?
> 
> The reason I ask is because I want to try running usb to AES/EBU to run into a Yggdrasil when I get one in the near future. I don't want to spend much to try this, and The Melodius isn't currently available in silver. The rest of my gear is silver so I would like to avoid a black box in the rack. I don't have any desire to mod either converter, but I will be able to use a Regen to feed whatever box I choose. If the Gustard is really close in performance, I'd just go for that. If the Melodius is heads above, I may just wait until silver is available.


 

 Hi, Well first off - congrats on the Yggy - what a beauty!  Big fan of R2R DACs and with the tech Schiit put in that beast - I bet sounds amazing.
  
 Second - I have not heard the new 'redesigned' Melodious.  I had lots of issues with a couple of the Melodious I bought and won't be trying their latest creation.
  
 Third of the two - I would buy neither.  I would get a Breeze Audio DU-U8 - it is cheaper and sound betters (at least in my two systems) and comes in silver.
 The Breeze has AES/EBU outputs.  I have had several of each - even modding the U12 and Melodious  - the DU-U8 crushes them.  I even had a Hydra Z fed by a linear power supply after my living with the U12 and the MX-U8 and it bettered both.  Then the Breeze blew in and that Z was sold.
  
 Here would be my ranking and ratings:
  
 Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)             98
 Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)               95
 Hydra Z with LPS                                     92
 Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)         85
 Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                        81
 Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                 76
 Gustard U12 stock                                   72
 iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                  65
 Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                  65
 M2Tech EVO with LPS                            60
 Audiophileo 2                                           50
 M2Tech Hiface                                         40
  
  
 Note be sure to ask the seller for the Talema transformer upgrade it's only a few dollars more.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/141026791919?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 There is another candidate with AES - the PUC2 Lite - AES only.  I have heard good things about it, but so far have not tried it.
 http://www.stereotimes.com/post/yellowtec-puc2-lite-usb-converter/
  
 Good luck and report your results.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## MINORISUKE

rb2013 said:


> .....
> 
> Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)             98
> Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)               95
> ...


 
 Thanks for your evaluation.  I wonder if MX-U8 ver1.7 would beat DU-U8.  Mr. Liu at Melodious must be aware of his competitor Breeze.  If DU-U8 is with DSDOE (DSD/PCM indicator) in I2S, I will be interested.....


----------



## phile1

rb2013 said:


> Good luck and report your results.


 
 Hi rb2013,
 This is  a result I don't like...
  
 I prefer streamers, because no need of an optimized PC and so on, and all reviews stand & confirm it sounds better than computer-usb-interface setups.
 Thus my premium source is a ethernet based streamer : the Edel NMR board (used in many high end streamers ; here is the link : http://www.engineered.ch/audio/network-interface/ )
  
 I received the Breeze a few days ago, long burning done. (Telema version, the "posh" version at top high price !!)
 Today I compared it to the Gustard U12 (stock version), I confirm the Breeze is better, 
 But I found the gap is less than in your ranking.
  
 2 "special" features on my Breeze setup :
 - USB cable : I use the Corning 3.Optical (10m version).
 - I put a Schaffner filter on the power cable of the Breeze. This one => http://eu.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=0virtualkey0virtualkeyFN2090-1-06 ; it helps a lot to clean any harshness.
  
 So, I compared my streamer (supposed to be a very good one) with the Breeze => really close.
 So close that I wonder which one is the best, so I'll have to do the testing again with more tracks.
  
 Did someone compare the Breeze with a good streamer ? I have a trouble with my streamer or the Breeze is really good ?
  
 I tested the coax & toslink output of the Breeze : equal.
 Are the AES & i2s better ?
  
 I'm really confused right now. Till now all ethernet based sources were far ahead the PC>usb>interface... and today it is roughly equal or better I don't know. A bit weird ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Rgds
  
 EDIT : sorry I forgot to mention that my laptop is absolutly not optimized for audio. It is just a good laptop (i7, 1 yr old), for multi-purpose use.


----------



## crazychile

Cheaper,better, and in silver. I like that. Thanks.

Any options besides Fleabay? I haven't done Fleabay in almost a decade. (Gasp)
I guess I don't really have objections since the seller seems reputable......


----------



## panhead

The new version of the Melodious arrived yesterday.    So far after 24hrs on I would say the new Melodious is better,   maybe a bit quieter and more fleshed out than the Breeze.   However this is NOT a fair comparison as the servers are somewhat different.     This is just a preliminary opinion but so far I have enjoyed the sound.......
  
 The case is about 2/3 the size of the previous version and seems somewhat heavier.    Seems to have the same I/O.   I look forward to other opinions.


----------



## bimmer100

i'm all over this. 
  
 http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DIU8/DIU8EN.htm
  
 the new DIU8 audio-gd DDC.


----------



## Khragon

The HDMI output on this one is compatible with the M11 right?


----------



## rb2013

crazychile said:


> Cheaper,better, and in silver. I like that. Thanks.
> 
> Any options besides Fleabay? I haven't done Fleabay in almost a decade. (Gasp)
> I guess I don't really have objections since the seller seems reputable......


 

 AliExpress - seems better now then it used to be for US buyers.  Cheaper - but no buyer protection.


----------



## rb2013

panhead said:


> The new version of the Melodious arrived yesterday.    So far after 24hrs on I would say the new Melodious is better,   maybe a bit quieter and more fleshed out than the Breeze.   However this is NOT a fair comparison as the servers are somewhat different.     This is just a preliminary opinion but so far I have enjoyed the sound.......
> 
> The case is about 2/3 the size of the previous version and seems somewhat heavier.    Seems to have the same I/O.   I look forward to other opinions.


 

 I think the new Melodious now has BNC out that the older version didn't have.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> i'm all over this.
> 
> http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DIU8/DIU8EN.htm
> 
> the new DIU8 audio-gd DDC.


 

 Nice looking unit - $350 is getting up there.  But if it sounds great - what's a few hundred dollars!
  
 Anybody recognize these clocks?  SiTime?


----------



## motberg

bimmer100 said:


> i'm all over this.
> 
> http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DIU8/DIU8EN.htm
> 
> the new DIU8 audio-gd DDC.


 

 This has the multiple digital inputs found in prior Audio-GD DI series..... could be really convenient for some folks.


----------



## bimmer100

So I just did a few mods to my U12 recently. Now the a/c transformer is removed. I believe it was a talema or something like it anyhow. Now it's directly powered by a Teradak DC30W dialed in at 7v. Also just finished installing a dexa newclassd 5v regulator too! I was pleasantly surprised with a nice bump in sq!  It's significantly better sounding than stock with a pretty nice build now!
  
 Gustard U12 stock unit (170usd)
 Crystek 957 clocks (65usd) DACladder installed these, ic chip and caps.
 Dip12 sockets for crystals (20usd)
 Panasonic 25v 3300uF low esr caps (4dollars)
 Dexa NewClassD 5v regulator (10times quieter, 100times better ripple rejection, high bandwidth, ultra low noise) (60usd)
 IC swap for Audio-GD HDMI i2s pinout (10usd)
 Pure DC Linear power from Teradak DC30W 7v (170usd)
  
 total of appox 500usd... nutz... i know.
  
 powered by Paul Hynes SR3 from usb line (quietest power possible)
  
 so this U12 is totally ideal and sounds quite a bit better than most DDC's out there. But the build cost is a bit high 
  
  
 but if the DIU8 sounds better, i'm selling this setup above for about half what I have into it. So it can help fund the cost.


----------



## bimmer100

khragon said:


> The HDMI output on this one is compatible with the M11 right?


 
 the DIU8, yes...thats what I meant.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Found them - nothing exceptional - std Chinese OEM TXCO clocks.  Elcheapo clock for USB.
> 
> I guess the only thing unqie is that Savitech:


 
 I'm not sure that is the same...could be...but thats another model. it's their analog to digital. notice the two 3.5mm on one side.


----------



## panhead

rb2013 said:


> I think the new Melodious now has BNC out that the older version didn't have.


 
 You are correct.   The toslink is also missing.   Im using the AES/EBU and hooked it up quickly and didnt notice.


----------



## ccschua

Audio gd do not believe in clocks. Looks like TCXO to me.

Power supply is shunt regulator transistor based without the usual ULN.

It has been been my contention. Discrete vs ULN reg. Which sounds better.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> So I just did a few mods to my U12 recently. Now the a/c transformer is removed. I believe it was a talema or something like it anyhow. Now it's directly powered by a Teradak DC30W dialed in at 7v. Also just finished installing a dexa newclassd 5v regulator too! I was pleasantly surprised with a nice bump in sq!  It's significantly better sounding than stock with a pretty nice build now!
> 
> Gustard U12 stock unit (170usd)
> Crystek 957 clocks (65usd)
> ...


 

 It's ALIVE!... (from Frankstein)
  
 Nice  - the stock transformer although blue is not a Talema but a generic OEM chinese version - so good riddance.
  
 I should note on my ranking that the Empirical Off Ramp 5 With the Dynamo Power upgrade would rank somewhere around 102-104.  But it's $2000.  I did not own the OR5 but did a pretty exhustive listening comparison with the Breeze on a friend's very high system.  Of course that was before the Cerious Graphene power cable arrived.  I would bet that the Breeze with the Cerious would be a very tough call.  And the comparison I made was with Breeze running SPDIF coax out and a low end Blue jeans cable vs the OR5 using an Empirical i2s cable running i2s into the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC. So we were able to do on the fly comparisons.  If I get a chance to repeat that duel -  I would bring my AS Statement silver digital RCA cable and the Cerious.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> Audio gd do not believe in clocks. Looks like TCXO to me.
> 
> Power supply is shunt regulator transistor based without the usual ULN.
> 
> It has been been my contention. Discrete vs ULN reg. Which sounds better.


 

 I see - their previous version used the generic OEM JYEC TXCO type clocks with a AudioGd cover print.  These look a little different - but they could just be a different OEM order.  A close-up photo would be nice.
  
 It looks like a lot of effort on the power filtering and regulation front.  R-Core transformer as std now (was an upgrade option before).  I agree about discrete shunt regulation vs Ic based ULN LDOs.  Just ask John Tucker about that over at Exemplar Audio.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> It's ALIVE!... (from Frankstein)
> 
> Nice  - the stock transformer although blue is not a Talema but a generic OEM chinese version - so good riddance.
> 
> I should note on my ranking that the Empirical Off Ramp 5 With the Dynamo Power upgrade would rank somewhere around 102-104.  But it's $2000.  I did not own the OR5 but did a pretty exhustive listening comparison with the Breeze on a friend's very high system.  Of course that was before the Cerious Graphene power cable arrived.  I would bet that the Breeze with the Cerious would be a very tough call.  And the comparison I made was with Breeze running SPDIF coax out and a low end Blue jeans cable vs the OR5 using an Empirical i2s cable running i2s into the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC. So we were able to do on the fly comparisons.  If I get a chance to repeat that duel -  I would bring my AS Statement silver digital RCA cable and the Cerious.


 
 I ordered the DIU8 this morning with a AS statement silver digital RCA cable with BNC adapter and cable cooked. Found a nice coupon code for it 
  
 I'm only using that to hook up my external bookshelf speakers (vanatoo transparent ones) from the DIU8. Nice having extra outputs!


----------



## riffer

rb2013 said:


> It's ALIVE!... (from Frankstein)
> 
> Nice  - the stock transformer although blue is not a Talema but a generic OEM chinese version - so good riddance.
> 
> I should note on my ranking that the Empirical Off Ramp 5 With the Dynamo Power upgrade would rank somewhere around 102-104.  But it's $2000.  I did not own the OR5 but did a pretty exhustive listening comparison with the Breeze on a friend's very high system.  Of course that was before the Cerious Graphene power cable arrived.  I would bet that the Breeze with the Cerious would be a very tough call.  And the comparison I made was with Breeze running SPDIF coax out and a low end Blue jeans cable vs the OR5 using an Empirical i2s cable running i2s into the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC. So we were able to do on the fly comparisons.  If I get a chance to repeat that duel -  I would bring my AS Statement silver digital RCA cable and the Cerious.


 

 I have the Empirical Audio and the I2s is truly outstanding.  Mine has the Hynes regulator, but just the wall wart PSU.  I was less impressed by the BNC output into my Master 7, but it wasn't tricked out like the I2s one.  I've had the parts for DACLadder's HDMI mod on the Gustard for a few months, but haven't got around to it yet.  As I prefer the Master 7's BNC input, I might just do the mod to the Gustard and see if it is "good enough" for my limited 192 stuff and get rid of the Off-Ramp.  As usual, thank you for your efforts in finding, testing and modding all these devices.


----------



## Rhamnetin

Just got my U12 recently, I've been using it with coaxial output.  Man, this thing lowered my noise floor so much.  That alone makes it worth the investment. Some of the higher frequencies sound a bit less distorted although that might be placebo, but I'm glad I purchased the U12.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I'm not sure that is the same...could be...but thats another model. it's their analog to digital. notice the two 3.5mm on one side.


 
 Oh - if you find under the hood photos please post.  Likely they are using the same parts as in the DAC for USB bridging.
  


riffer said:


> I have the Empirical Audio and the I2s is truly outstanding.  Mine has the Hynes regulator, but just the wall wart PSU.  I was less impressed by the BNC output into my Master 7, but it wasn't tricked out like the I2s one.  I've had the parts for DACLadder's HDMI mod on the Gustard for a few months, but haven't got around to it yet.  As I prefer the Master 7's BNC input, I might just do the mod to the Gustard and see if it is "good enough" for my limited 192 stuff and get rid of the Off-Ramp.  As usual, thank you for your efforts in finding, testing and modding all these devices.


 
 Thanks for the kudos - that OR5 i2s is really superb.  I think those Hynes regulators surely would improve things.  Do have a photo of the board - I am curious as to which clocks and caps Empirical uses.  I guess yours does not have the 'Turbo clock' upgrade.  Hard to find board photos on line.
  


rhamnetin said:


> Just got my U12 recently, I've been using it with coaxial output.  Man, this thing lowered my noise floor so much.  That alone makes it worth the investment. Some of the higher frequencies sound a bit less distorted although that might be placebo, but I'm glad I purchased the U12.


 
 The U12 is a great sounding unit - and only when compared to some of these other outstanding DDCs does the veiled nature become apparent.


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> I see - their previous version used the generic OEM JYEC TXCO type clocks with a AudioGd cover print.  These look a little different - but they could just be a different OEM order.  A close-up photo would be nice.
> 
> It looks like a lot of effort on the power filtering and regulation front.  R-Core transformer as std now (was an upgrade option before).  I agree about discrete shunt regulation vs Ic based ULN LDOs.  Just ask John Tucker about that over at Exemplar Audio.


 
  
 I wonder what had John Tucker commented on the discreet vs ULN LDO ?


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> I wonder what had John Tucker commented on the discreet vs ULN LDO ?


 

 When John did a major modding job on my Denon 3190 and 5910 he explained to me the advantages of multi-stage choke power regulation.  He added over 5 choke regulators to those units - the sound was fantastic.  Something about non-saturation or overload.
  
 When I did my Lite DAC60 mod project I knew I had to add choke filtering to the power supply.  Went with a 10 Henry Hammond - made quite a difference.  Wish I had room for more - but with all the large upgraded caps ran out.


----------



## ccschua

john swenson do recommend the use of ULN LDO for low power application below 350mA, especially on digital circuits. for preamp and analog output, I guess that ULN will have to stay away.
  
 I have been following this principle, i.e. using ULN for digital circuits. the discreet shunt reg (using the 2SCxxxx ) is having good noise numbers at higher power. only problem is that some of the china made discreet reg is not performing to my expectation.


----------



## onlythat

The PUC’n Breeze... (so far)

So I got a used Breeze (with Talema) at a good price from a forum member and the fight has been on for main system superiority head to head against my PUC 2 Lite USB to AES converter. Plan was loser sits permanently on the musical sidelines in the headphone system in the office. (It’s actually a comfortable office, so don’t worry about the losing converter’s welfare). I first wanna say rb has some Ceriously golden (graphene?) ears! (Audio-speak translation: based on everything of his I’ve read, his sonic sensibilities seem to align wholeheartedly with mine

The Breeze is the first converter in my system to last more than about two tracks (of any genre) against the mighty PUC. No sir, the Breeze aint PUCin’ around! Now there are some caveats: because Breeze was bought lightly used, not sure how many miles she has on the odometer and rb says it takes some time to break in. Also, I do not have in house the esteemed/officially rb-approved Cerious Graphene power cord. And here is where you should start listening to rb; the man is exactly right on when he says the Breeze is power cord sensitive. It is! Started with the stock cord and it was a terrific machine, but with just a touch of edge (break in too?) and slightly less depth etc. Switched a few cables I had in house and presto! Arrived at the JPS Labs The Digital 2m AC cable and it was a match made in heaven. I’m betting, based on rb’s amazement, that the Cerious would scale even loftier sonic heights, but alas, I’ve spent too much on all these stoopid doo-dads and converters to try that one right now. 
 In any case, with the JPS Labs power cord and Mogami gold XLR digital cable in place, I was ready to roll. (I initially slightly prefered the Breeze's AES output to it's RCA and my DAC can take AES or RCA coax, but later when I switched in a ‘better’ SPDIF cable, things evened out a bit more between these outputs). Now I’m not going to do one of those every single damn track I heard 'blow by blow' reviews, as I myself find them very tedious to read (and write. Basically, in my view, a component has a certain sound relative to your 'reference' component (who knows which is really “right”?) and it doesn’t matter how many tracks or genres you run through; this sonic signature stays pretty constant and the thing either makes music for you or it doesn't. If you are attracted to someone, do you ask them to stand like this and then like this and then... no! You are just attracted to them or not Later you will discover they too are flawed and only human, but I digress...
So I picked a few albums I liked and which are really well recorded and there you have it. I used Eddie Higgins Trio ‘Ballad Higgins,’ (some amazing bass on some of these tracks of mellow jazz; stream it on Tidal!), The Wanderer Trio ‘Beethoven Trios’ (what can I say, I like trios?) and lots of really good concert pianists like the guy who won the 17th International Chopin competition and Yundi Li playing the same piece back to back (the No. 17 Chopin prelude, for example. FYI, I preferred Yundi Li’s playingJ
 (Drum roll…….) In very general terms—it’s now a close horse race! Finally. The verdict? Both are really really (really) good converters! Thank you to RB for discovering this little guy! Both share a wonderful way with imaging/stage width and depth, dynamics and tone, and most importantly musical engagement. Also—a first for a Chinese-made converter for me, there have been zero dropouts or issues with the Breeze and in that sense it is ‘PUC-like’ in it’s reliability. With Tidal, HD Classics or Audirvana Plus, this thing just ‘works’!! (And let the record so reflect the newest Audirvana plus sounds awesome!!) So on points, and this is with an unknown amount of break in and without the Cerious Graphene power cord, if the PUC is at 100, the Breeze is between 92 and 96. Why? For me it comes down to BS and TP (thought you’d enjoy thatJ Namely, Bass, Space and Tonal Purity. In my system thusly wired, the PUC 2 Lite has just a smidgeon more bass, a tiny bit more air and space and a certain tonal purity; very slightly ‘purer’ than the Breeze. A good 6moons-type phrase would be something like ‘with a well-recorded piano, the breeze is slightly more string than mallet and the PUC is slightly more felted mallet on string.’ There. And you didn’t have to read 20 pages of circuit diagrams and interviews with the designer’s elementary school teacher and golf caddy to get to that statement I kid! I kid!! (rimshot please). Both converters suffer no lack of impact and image size but maybe the PUC 2 is very slightly ‘meatier’ or ‘weightier’ sounding than the Breeze; slightly ‘bigger’ sounding? So thus far I would say if your DAC does not have an AES input, definitely just go for the Breeze and be done with it, but cable it appropriately! And if you do have AES input capability, I might go for the PUC 2 Lite.
 However—I have not heard the Breeze with the Cerious power cord of rb’s affections and affectations. I will say I know rb uses a power strip with filtering for his digital gear and I am guessing that this is the reason I liked the JPS Labs The Digital AC cord so much with it (which is not good with amps in my experience!); because it contains some kind of AC filtration per the design brief. This seems to be just what the Breeze needs. But I am very curious to try the CeriousJ 
 Essentially, and this is sans-Graphene and again with who knows how much break in on the Breeze, I could listen to either of these converters forever (read: at least 3 months in audio terms); music sounds so real with them in the system and so present and the stand-up bass on something like the ‘Ballad Higgins’ disc is frightening with either converter (especially with the SVS SB 1000 subwoofer I bought to try!). Imaging is similarly spooky. Really, if I suddenly lost one or the other of these converters, I could happily live with either, though with the Breeze, I’d probably be unable to stop asking myself how much better it might could get if I ordered the Cerious power cord (thanks rb Bottom-line, yes I feel the PUC 2 beats the Breeze in several areas but only just, and then only if you have AES input on your DAC. Otherwise you may need a 110ohm to 75ohm converter between them and who knows what that might do to the PUC’s small musical advantage? Also, the PUC does require USB power and the Breeze does not. That means either you run a standard USB cable with it or, in the case of a split cable, employ a linear power supply like my Teradak. So an added expense if you need a linear power supply. On the other hand, the PUC is totally power cord insensitive cause it doesn't have one
 I thought about not writing this pseudo-review yet because again (for probably the 3rd timeJ, I am not certain of amount of break in time on Breeze (it definitely isn’t right out of box) and also don’t have the ‘ideal’ power cord, so please take this brief sketch as saying simply that the Breeze is a superb converter with which, if I lost the PUC 2, I could happily live and not notice any Cerious(!) loss of musical involvement. 
 Also, on a related and interesting note, I want to add that I bought the Lite speed 2G cable based on rb’s writings/recs and damn! This thing is one hell of a USB cable! Initially, it seemed there was a slight break in time (maybe 10 or 15 hours?) where maybe some image center-fill was lacking, but since it settled down, no such issue exists and it has just been so involving; pacey with a huge soundstage, wonderful tone and depth—just wow. It was neck and neck initially with my reference USB cable (Chord Silver Plus) and that cable is similarly engaging, pacey and musical. However I think the Lite Speed just slightly beats it on tonality (a bit more refined without being laid back) and bass (a bit deeper) as well as stage depth. The Chord may be slightly pacier and it speaks with a slightly more forward accent up top. A terrific cable, but I am starting to prefer the Lite Speed 2G. Again, much like the converters they’re attached to, I could happily live with either, but head to head (both with AQ Jitterbug attached), I keep coming back to the 2G now as the slightly more ‘natural’ and broader sounding cable. Whew! That was a close one for the PUC 2 Lite! She almost ended up in the office system. Too bad I cant really put her there even if she lost because that DAC has only RCA coax inputJ I didn’t tell the PUC that before the contest so as not to scare the poor thing… Now someone get me a Cerious! I’m Cerious! J


----------



## rb2013

Great review!  Bravo!! and LMAO funny.  Love the humor.  You have my interest in the PUC2 Lite renewed!
  
 I will have to try one of these as some point - maybe a well priced used one will show up on the market.
  
 I completely agree - like the ladies - a component either does if for you or it doesn't.  Although, once the bikini goes on and the clothes come off - it can give a better (hopefully) or worse view of things.
  
 For me there are some tracks that are bikini-ish.  Hard to hide the flaws.
  
 Now for me the Cerious Graphene on the Breeze was a game changer.  I had a few other cables that worked  -  but not like the Graphene Extreme.  It also helped on my APL NWOjr DAC - but nearly to the degree it did on the Breeze.
  
 So now on to the DIYinHK DXIO PRO3a - should be here soon. 
  
 Then another Breeze for experimentation purposes. - first replace the SPDIF RCA output.  Upgrade the gold plated brass CRC with an Eichman digital exact 75ohm pure tellurium-copper one.   That's a no brainer and had great effect when I swapped the one on my DAC60 mod project.  Then the clock upgrade mod - to Crystek CCHD-957's.  Caps after.  So much to explore for 2016!
  
 Happy New Year!


----------



## ccschua

so that means you have the heat gun for the component change job ? 
  
 in face there is so much to try out with the breeze even a furutech socket might help too. I have also wonder if the jumper cable to RCA spdif needs to be 75ohm too ?
  
 your episode on the ultimate breeze vs PRO3a will be an interesting journey.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> so that means you have the heat gun for the component change job ?
> 
> in face there is so much to try out with the breeze even a furutech socket might help too. I have also wonder if the jumper cable to RCA spdif needs to be 75ohm too ?
> 
> your episode on the ultimate breeze vs PRO3a will be an interesting journey.


 

 Not yet - still shopping for that. 
  
 Yes wondering about a furutech socket as well.  Will likely swap out the stock wire for Mundorf solid silver/teflon - like on my DAC60 project. I had excellent results there (and the reason for the leftover Eichman).  That's a very easy wire swap. 
  
 I hope the PRO3a gets here soon.  Maybe can arange  a swap with @onlythat for his PUC2 Lite - to complete the DDC rolling experiment.  And well maybe the new Audio-gd as well.


----------



## onlythat

Done! Going to visit the parents in Boca for a week. So perhaps I will pull a Spike Lee and Do the Right Thing-- which would of course be to let you have the PUC while I'm gone 

Just do me a favor- treat her right! Buy her flowers while she's there; a nice Italian dinner etc.

FYI- forgot to mention my Breeze was retrofitted by its former owner with a BNC connector and I used a BNC cable from Breeze to DAC when not using the Mogami AES cable. 

And thanks for the kind words about the review! Let's hope it's helpful for some who may be on the fence in deciding between these two superb competitors.

On a final note, we are all very concerned with what DAC we have, but perhaps we should focus equal energy on what converter we're using to feed that DAC. Certainly I've discovered this is hugely important as regards my own level of musical enjoyment, and the right choice can make a good system a great system, or relegate a potentially great one to the realm of the merely good.


----------



## MINORISUKE

U12 HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD output pin assignment
  
 Look at these two pictures.  You see DSD R and DSD L are reversed!!!
 Gustard says there has been no pin assignment change, which is very likely to mean the previous version was incorrect.
 This explains DSD channel swap I experienced based on the "previous" version.
  
 The PS Audio suggestion indicates DATA and DSD R together, as well as LRCK and DSD L, as in the "previous" version.
 (+/- swap for No.1/3 and 7/9 is a different issue.)
 Since the "current" version is correct, you need two different wirings for PCM and DSD, respectively, to connect to the equipment based on the PS Audio suggestion.
  
 L.K.S. MH-DA003 seems to be based on this "current" version of Gustard.
  
 DAC-X12 and DAC-X20(U) work correctly both for PCM and DSD with U12.
 There was also the "previous" version for X12 corresponding to the one for U12.
  
 < previous (as I got my first unit around February 2015) >


 < current (from Taobao) >


----------



## hgpsemaj

I sold my U12 couple minutes ago. And, I must confess my new love is the curvy Amanero.


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Done! Going to visit the parents in Boca for a week. So perhaps I will pull a Spike Lee and Do the Right Thing-- which would of course be to let you have the PUC while I'm gone
> 
> Just do me a favor- treat her right! Buy her flowers while she's there; a nice Italian dinner etc.
> 
> ...


 

 Oh no!  You bought that Breeze!  I would give an untampered one a try.  That modification looked very suspect to me.  If you insist on BNC just use a AES to BNC adapter.
  
 Looking forward to giving the PUC2 a try.  Once my burnin and trail on the DXIO Pro 3a is complete it's on it's way to you.  Sorry bro - I just can't live without these Ceriously great Graphene power cables.  I'm trying to decide if I should buy my fourth - the last one for my office DAC.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

minorisuke said:


> U12 HDMI LVDS I2S/DSD output pin assignment
> 
> Look at these two pictures.  You see DSD R and DSD L are reversed!!!
> Gustard says there has been no pin assignment change, which is very likely to mean the previous version was incorrect.
> ...


 
 Thanks for posting this great info - i2s continues to be a mess of alternative wirings, HDMI vs RJ45, etc...  Someone could create a cottage industry just making various correctly wired cables.
  


hgpsemaj said:


> I sold my U12 couple minutes ago. And, I must confess my new love is the curvy Amanero.


 
 Any pics or links for the new Amanero?  New chip design?


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> Any pics or links for the new Amanero?  New chip design?


 
  
  
 I ordered both of these TCXO have no LDO, and the PCB I got in hand is yellow in colour. I pair this USB Interface with TaraDak Linear PS, and its playback out performance  MX-U8 V1.5 by several aspects.

  
 I've learnt the third oscillator in fact lays an important role on the USB Interface, thus  I'm considering to replace the third oscillator with an OCXO


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> I ordered both of these TCXO have no LDO, and the PCB I got in hand is yellow in colour. I pair this USB Interface with TaraDak Linear PS, and its playback out performance  MX-U8 V1.5 by several aspects.
> 
> 
> I've learnt the third oscillator in fact lays an important role on the USB Interface, thus  I'm considering to replace the third oscillator with an OCXO


 

 Nice!  The third clock is for USB timing only and not nearly as critical as the Audio clocks - at least according to Uptone's John Swenson.  Likely going the route of a OCXO is way over kill.  Maybe better to use a couple of OCXO for the audio clocks - but then you'll need some sophisticated frequency dividers and lot's of power.


----------



## hgpsemaj

rb2013 said:


> Nice!  The third clock is for USB timing only and not nearly as critical as the Audio clocks - at least according to Uptone's John Swenson.  Likely going the route of a OCXO is way over kill.  Maybe better to use a couple of OCXO for the audio clocks - but then you'll need some sophisticated frequency dividers and lot's of power.


 
  
 Thank you for your valuable advise.
  
 Friend of mind has modified the third clock recently. And, I've learnt diyinhk is also taking a great care for the third clock on their products. It sounds like a fashion, doesn't it?

  
 The enclosure isn't big enough to put on additional R-Core and regulator, so I power the Amanero externally.(i.e. via both 5V jack and usb.)

  
 Regards,
  
  
 Riemann


----------



## m0reilly

rb2013 said:


> Oh no!  You bought that Breeze!  I would give an untampered one a try.  That modification looked very suspect to me...


 
 LOL
 so if anyone else replaces a termination its ok but my job is suspect? LOL
 if the dac 60 spdif is indeed 75 ohm, a true 75 ohm from source to cable to destination termination of same (bnc) will be true 75ohm. i'm just not buying ($$$) expensive rca terminations claiming to be true 75 ohm when i can just use the industry standard of bnc, from source to cable to destination...
 and as for i2s, you see that adopters of the ps audio layout are a constant, while my own experience with the gustard corroborates the 'mix up' some overseas companies have with consistency regarding even their own formula.


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> LOL
> so if anyone else replaces a termination its ok but my job is suspect? LOL
> if the dac 60 spdif is indeed 75 ohm, a true 75 ohm from source to cable to destination termination of same (bnc) will be true 75ohm. i'm just not buying ($$$) expensive rca terminations claiming to be true 75 ohm when i can just use the industry standard of bnc, from source to cable to destination...
> and as for i2s, you see that adopters of the ps audio layout are a constant, while my own experience with the gustard corroborates the 'mix up' some overseas companies have with consistency regarding even their own formula.


 

 That was tongue in cheek!  I knew it would get your goat - sorry man.  A little New Years razz.
  
 Nothing wrong with that BNC replacement - LOL  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  That Breeze is a mighty fine specimen...
  
 I'm so bad
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 PS I knew it was yours the moment BNC was mentioned...I know from the DAC60 mod thread you do good work


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> Thank you for your valuable advise.
> 
> Friend of mind has modified the third clock recently. And, I've learnt diyinhk is also taking a great care for the third clock on their products. It sounds like a fashion, doesn't it?
> 
> ...


 
 Well I'll repost this from one of preious posts regarding the Nuetron Star clocks - from chief engineer at Uptone Audio - John Swenson.  His comments on the importance of the USB clock.  But it is good to see that DIYinHK built onto their board a NDK SD for USB - it was probably cheaper then buying a different XO clock to put there - and they are tiny so it saved space.
  
 I added the bold emphasis:
  Quote:


> > Originally Posted by *JohnSwenson*
> >
> > ​ _Something very strange happened, I actually have a few minutes free so I can talk about this.
> >
> > ...


 
  
 I love that separate ps for the clock - like Alex does.


----------



## onlythat

Wait- rb-- you mean my Breeze from a certain nameless forum member has the seal of approval?!! Or is my entire review null and void!? Even the part about the nature of human attraction?!! All because of one lousy Bnc mod??! Oh man. 
Now I hafta order another Breeze Phooey!

PS: my DAC has a bnc input and for once I got to use a bnc to bnc cable (came with the DAC) without any adapter. That alone made me feel warm and pure inside


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Wait- rb-- you mean my Breeze from a certain nameless forum member has the seal of approval?!! Or is my entire review null and void!? Even the part about the nature of human attraction?!! All because of one lousy Bnc mod??! Oh man.
> Now I hafta order another Breeze Phooey!
> 
> PS: my DAC has a bnc input and for once I got to use a bnc to bnc cable (came with the DAC) without any adapter. That alone made me feel warm and pure inside


 

 No it's good!  It was an evil joke on my friend!
  
 When you mentioned BNC and bought used - I knew it was ORielly's - and posted that to twist his tail (as he does to me from time to time 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).
  
 I have not heard his - but don't see why it wouldn't sound good.  He way preferred his Z to the Breeze (I believe) - I felt the opposite.  So as with all matters audio - YMMV.  
  
 The sound of the two Breezes I have are so good and better then all other USB bridges that have come before - that I'm really hesitant to do anything to them!  And that is a major first!
  
 The next mod will be swapping the gold plated brass CRC RCA with an Eichmann RCA.
 We've been PM ing each other over different mod ideas.  So his gentle dig at my 'expensive' 'claiming to be 75ohm' Eichmann - going with a BNC instead. 
  
 The Eichmann is made in Germany (vs China) and is constructed of pure Tellurium-Copper - made to exact 75 ohm standards.  They are $29 each - not a huge cost imo.  Since I have expensive RCA SPDIF cables - I would prefer to go that route.
  
 Here is more info on the Eichmann:
 http://www.vhaudio.com/phonopod.html


> The new Eichmann PhonoPod HC-XTC RCA female chassis socket is a low mass design with low inductive reactance for superior, extended bandwidth and more detailed, coherent sound. The PHonoPod HC-XTC uses 20 micron gold micro-plating over pure copper, resulting in better signal transfer, higher resolution, and our unique controlled 'skin-depth ratio' or SDR� for enhanced frequency/phase coherency. The PhonoPod also has the added advantage of being a true 75 Ohm impedance connection, making this an ideal connector for use in digital (SPDIF) or video applications


 

  
 This is what I learned about 'copper' - really brass - connectors from the excellent Aural Thrills Audio website.  I have many of their RCA interconnect cables and after rolling dozens upon dozens of different interconnects - they are what I use exclusively throughout my systems.  All with the teflon connectors.


> *Teflon RCA*
> For years I have wanted to get the Brass out of my cables. Brass is a terrible conductor and adds a real dullness to the sound. Silver is the best conductor followed by Copper and then Gold. Brass is way further down the list. The reason that RCA connectors are made of Brass is ease of manufacture as well as malleability. Conductive ability is not on the list of positives for this type of construction. ALL Rca connectors are made of brass and then coated with Silver, Gold,
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I use the Eichmanns for the digital input on my DAC60 Mod project - with great effect.  So it worked so well there why not on the Breeze.
  
 My APL NWOjr DAC uses the very expensive WBT NextGen silvers - which are considered the best RCA connector made.  http://www.partsconnexion.com/product9724.html
  
 I see the true Copper version of the WBT NexGen have gone on sale at parts connexion and may try a pair of those - one for the Breeze and one for the DAC60 mod project
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/wbt_66333.pdf


----------



## Triplefun

Shenzhen audio have the u12 on sale for us$140 including free shipping!
http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/gustard-u12-32bit-384khz-xmos-usb-digital-audio-interface.html


----------



## Rhamnetin

triplefun said:


> Shenzhen audio have the u12 on sale for us$140 including free shipping!
> http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/gustard-u12-32bit-384khz-xmos-usb-digital-audio-interface.html


 
  
 On a related note, is this the site I should get the MX-U8 from?  I'll be looking to get it in a few months and compare it to my U12.  I'll post the review here on Head-Fi.


----------



## Triplefun

Looks like a new version is about to be released. You could also look at a second hand option http://www.hifishark.com/search?q=melodious+mx-u8. Note I have had no issues buying from China other than delays in delivery.


----------



## ccschua

can anyone point me to a good USB B plug. have been trying to find Oyaide or so but to no avail.


----------



## m0reilly

rb2013 said:


> That was tongue in cheek!  I knew it would get your goat - sorry man.  A little New Years razz.
> 
> Nothing wrong with that BNC replacement - LOL
> 
> ...


----------



## m0reilly

onlythat said:


> Wait- rb-- you mean my Breeze from a certain nameless forum member has the seal of approval?!!...
> 
> PS: my DAC has a bnc input and for once *I got to use a bnc to bnc cable (came with the DAC) without any adapter. That alone made me feel warm and pure inside*


 




 though for rca analog interconnects i'm totally sold on the the Eichmanns.


----------



## rb2013

m0reilly said:


> :tongue_smile:  :wink_face:




You're a good sport, and I'm a bast**d. Lol! 

Cheers mate!




triplefun said:


> Looks like a new version is about to be released. You could also look at a second hand option http://www.hifishark.com/search?q=melodious+mx-u8. Note I have had no issues buying from China other than delays in delivery.



The new version is already up on fleabay.




ccschua said:


> can anyone point me to a good USB B plug. have been trying to find Oyaide or so but to no avail.



Try Parts Connexion.


----------



## rb2013

The DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a is in the house! And sounding awesome! The first USB bridge, besides the Hydra Z, to give the Breeze a match.

Running it fed by a Teradak R-Core DC-30w linear power supply set to 5.5 VDC, wired with the Cerious Graphene Xtreme power cord, into a dedicated PB4X4Pro line conditioner.

Right out of the box killer good. Massive depth and width of the soundstage. Uber detailed, maybe even more then the Breeze. Just a hint of edge and hardness, needs run time.

I would say this one could beat the Breeze if it warms up a bit and the bass gets deeper. Already beating the cavernous deep Breeze bass, by a notch.

The Breeze excells so far in just wonderful smoothness and ease. Just more natural as well, but the DXIO should match that with a few hundred hours. Nice very nice.


----------



## hgpsemaj

Xmos USB Input PCB from Melodious, supports 384kHz & DSD


----------



## hgpsemaj

An OEM of WEILIANG claimed this is the latest Xmos 8 cores chip set for the USB Interface, also supports 384kHz & DSD.


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> The DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a is in the house! And sounding awesome! The first USB bridge, besides the Hydra Z, to give the Breeze a match.
> 
> Running it fed by a Teradak R-Core DC-30w linear power supply set to 5.5 VDC, wired with the Cerious Graphene Xtreme power cord, into a dedicated PB4X4Pro line conditioner.
> 
> ...


 
  
 pls report back again after 50 hours. If you can get hold of DIYINHK LT 3042 that would bring you to nirvana.
  
 my confirm button is ready to launch.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> The DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a is in the house! And sounding awesome! The first USB bridge, besides the Hydra Z, to give the Breeze a match.
> 
> Running it fed by a Teradak R-Core DC-30w linear power supply set to 5.5 VDC, wired with the Cerious Graphene Xtreme power cord, into a dedicated PB4X4Pro line conditioner.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Just wait for 150 hours of burn-in time and report back 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Can you imagine how the isolated version I use sounds? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Sadly you need SPDIF otherwise you could use the isolated pcb, but it is I2S only.
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> pls report back again after 50 hours. If you can get hold of DIYINHK LT 3042 that would bring you to nirvana.
> 
> my confirm button is ready to launch.


 
 Well the DXIO Pro3a already has the Ultra Low noise Regulators - coupled fed with the low noise linear power supply (and Cerious Graphene power cord- this pc makes a difference on the TeraDak).
  
 I would to see Breeze do a LPS with that excellent dual stage LDO LM2419 regulation and Pannie Masters XPO caps.
  
 I will now proceed on a dual mod track - modding the Breeze and also work on the R-core TeraDak DC-30W - replacing the 10 25V 1500uf generic caps with better Nichicon.  Replace the LDO there as well.  Just ordered a second DC-30W.
  


abartels said:


> Just wait for 150 hours of burn-in time and report back
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 SPDIF works great for me!  Yes 150-200 hours should do wonders.


----------



## rb2013

OK long listening session last night with the DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a.  Some more comments - man is this thing small.  Smaller then a deck of cards!
  
 Would not work with the Luckit drivers - or the Oppo drivers.  Only works with the DIYinHK provided ones.  Unfortunately - they are the reduced feature set versions - so now no balance control, or buffer setting changes.
  
 Second - I love the SoX upsampler in Foobar -  and usample all my Redbook files to 192K when playing through the APL NWOjr DAC. Unfortunately the XMOS 3.2 version driver did not play well with Jplay 6.2 - running 44k was fine - but on 192k the sound just echoed and dropped out.  On 176K the driver crashed and had to be reloaded.  Maybe when JPlay upgrades to 6.3 that will be fixed.  This is the first time this has happened with any DDC.  So I just ran the 3.2 ST ASIO output at 192k - still better then KS - and no issues at all.  Jplay can be finicky for sure (and yes I did try many different buffer settings).  The Jitterbug worked with the DXIO with absolutely no issues and it's characteristic smoothing helped.
  
 The sound actually improved as the night progressed - so burnin will definitely help.
  
 What really caught me was even greater detail then the amazing Breeze!  The level of detail retrieval unprecedented in my audio history.  I have heard my favorite audio tracks played on mega systems at big audio dealers - and the stuff I heard uncovered last night was not there.  It just goes to show you audio has not fully revealed what the artists had recorded and intended you to hear.  And this uncovered detail - just makes listening even more enjoyable.  But ultra deep information retrieval and system transparency can uncover faults in the recordings, and downstream system weaknesses.  Less refined systems (my amps are class A tube hybrids running the best of the very best HG '75 Reflektors and have been upgraded with a $1,000 of Mundorf TOTL Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps) may sound harsh or edgy - or just too bright with the DXIO.  The Breeze is much more forgiving.
  
 Lastly, the background noise was supremely black - so the emergence of these very low level details - produced the most holographic imaging I have heard yet.  These low level details contain hidden ambient clues that the ear/mind use to recreate the recorded sound field and the 3D point sources embedded in that field.  So guitars radiated not only forward, but the key back and side reflections now better revealed, produced a spooky real - in the room effect.  Especially on the 5ft tall Magnepan 1.6QR's.
  
 Great stuff!
  
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/97-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wmanual-power-switch.html
  


> XMOS 192kHz high-quality USB to SPDIF with ultralow noise 1.0uV regulator
> with high-quality aluminium housing and gold plated RCA connector
> This is the best USB to SPDIF for audiophile to enjoy.
> Feature:
> ...


----------



## rb2013

One other note on the DXIO - it's a bit weird when trying to power with an external power source.
  
 It seems to need a USB powered handshake to activate.  So here is what I do to get it to work with the TeraDak LPS:
  
 Using the wonderful Lightspeed 2G split cable.  Plug the data end into the Jitterbug which is plugged into a USB port.  The power end must be plugged into a separate USB port.  Get the DXIO playing - then close Foobar - switch to ext power while the USB cable power leg is still plugged into a PC USB port.  Reopen foobar and start playing - now unplug the power leg of the 2G - it continues to play.
  
 If you try and use just the data leg and ext power - the PC will not see any USB device.  So it appears to be like the Gustard U12 in this regard - no big deal - with the incredible 2G split cable, a simple matter to run with external power and completely detach any PC power supply.
  
 Just for an experiment - I will try and power the DXIO with a LiPo battery - using the 2G power leg plugged there and set to USB power - to see if there are any improvements in SQ.


----------



## ccschua

I wonder if there is cause for concerns since I am using dual PC Jplay (with older 6.1 version).
  
 I set to KS on audio PC. since if asio would sound better ?


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> I wonder if there is cause for concerns since I am using dual PC Jplay (with older 6.1 version).
> 
> I set to KS on audio PC. since if asio would sound better ?


I would try both KS and the ST3072 ASIO with DXIO. I tend to prefer ASIO with dithering, I also play with the buffer size in Foobar. On the Breeze I like Jplay Xtreme with ASIO best. None of these are dramatic differences, just minor tweeks.


----------



## rb2013

Ok ordered up a few dozen Nichicon HW's and Pannie FR 25V 1600uf caps to begin the TeraDak R-Core DC-30W modding.  These very low impedance and high PSRR caps should be a nice improvement over the cheapo generic ones TeraDak uses.  Each DC-30W takes 10 caps.
  
 Wish I could find those Pannie Masters XPO caps that Breeze Audio uses - they state "Panasonic's top audio filter caps":  But have not been able to find them anywhere.
  
 If anyone has a link to a mod discussion for this model of TeraDak - please send my way.
  
 I like the TeraDak R-core DC-30W for a few reasons - well built and relatively inexpensive, stock - sounds pretty good, and the big one for me it has adjustable voltage.  I have three devices that need a DC LPS but run at different voltages - from 9VDC for the Remedy to 6-8 VDC for the Regen Amber to 5-6 VDC for the DXIO Pro3a. With the ability to adjust the voltage to work with any of these, or any other gizmo that may come down the road, is a big plus for me.
  
 On the DXIO - it did not like the 5.5VDC I had the DC-30W set to - would unlock occasionally.  So I lowered it to 5.2VDC and it works like a charm.  +1 for adjustable voltage.


----------



## ccschua

I do agree as I have a teradak 30W used to power up the router. I just felt there is too much of cost cutting. it is smooth sounding and lacks detail and dynamics as well as acoustics effects. on further looks, there is no WIMA and so. so its good steps to upgrade those component. the saving factor is the diodes and  EMI/RFI input chokes and nice R-core. 
  
 since this uses discreet components, there are attached to casing with thermal pad/paste.
  
 I wonder if the Pro3A can be USB Powered ?
  
 Quote:


rb2013 said:


> Ok ordered up a few dozen Nichicon HW's and Pannie FR 25V 1600uf caps to begin the TeraDak R-Core DC-30W modding.  These very low impedance and high PSRR caps should be a nice improvement over the cheapo generic ones TeraDak uses.  Each DC-30W takes 10 caps.
> 
> Wish I could find those Pannie Masters XPO caps that Breeze Audio uses - they state "Panasonic's top audio filter caps":  But have not been able to find them anywhere.
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


>


 

 The DXIO Pro3 can be - in fact must be started with USB power leg connected - even when set for ext power.  But the SQ jumps significantly with the stock TeraDak DC-30.  Here the LH Labs Lightspeed 2G split cable is invaluable.  Just plug the power leg into any free USB port - then start playing - once the signal is detected unplug the power leg.  Takes 10 seconds.
  
 One note - I tried to power the Pro3a with the 16,000mAh Li Ion battery from it;s USB port and the DXIO would not work.  The Li Ion worked fine on the Hydra Z - in the end I preferred the TeraDak X1/X2.  Never got to try the DC-30W as dumb old Audiobyte used a highly unstandard 2.3mm DC input vs the 2.5 that almost everyone else uses - like the DXIO, Wyred Remedy, Uptone Regen, etc...
  
 The total cost to upgrade the 10 el-cheapo 'lytics to totl Nichicon HW's or Pannie FM's  was $11.  And about an hour of easy to reach (nice double sided case) soldering.
  
 I agree the R-Core transformer is good quality (nice copper shielding touch).
  
 Do you know which discretes they use - thought of trying a couple of Hynes in place.
  
 Another long listening session last night - the DXIO is smoothing out nicely.  Sounds amazing.  Went through 7 of my favorite Van Morrison albums.  Ones I've heard hundreds of times - and they all sounded fresh.  New details presented - great fun.
  
 Moon Dance
 Avalon Sunset
 A Sense of Wonder  (the 'space' on this album is a trip)
 No Method, No Guru, No Teacher
 Enlightenment
 Common One
 Poetic Champions Compose


----------



## PWGuy

rb2013 said:


> The DXIO Pro3 can be - in fact must be started with USB power leg connected - even when set for ext power.  But the SQ jumps significantly with the stock TeraDak DC-30.  Here the LH Labs Lightspeed 2G split cable is invaluable.  Just plug the power leg into any free USB port - then start playing - once the signal is detected unplug the power leg.  Takes 10 seconds.
> 
> One note - I tried to power the Pro3a with the 16,000mAh Li Ion battery from it;s USB port and the DXIO would not work.  The Li Ion worked fine on the Hydra Z - in the end I preferred the TeraDak X1/X2.  Never got to try the DC-30W as dumb old Audiobyte used a highly unstandard 2.3mm DC input vs the 2.5 that almost everyone else uses - like the DXIO, Wyred Remedy, Uptone Regen, etc...
> 
> ...




Robert, which DC-30W of the ones available (9V, 5V, etc) allow adjustable voltage ? Just the 9V?


----------



## rb2013

pwguy said:


> Robert, which DC-30W of the ones available (9V, 5V, etc) allow adjustable voltage ? Just the 9V?




I believe they all are, the seller adjusts the voltage to whatever the buyer requests. Btw, the TeraDak X1/X2 has two voltage ouputs, 5vdc from the USB, and an adjustable voltage from the 2.5mm cable. Pretty sure they are separate.

One other note the TeraDak DC-30w loves the Cerious Graphene Xtreme power cord, this makes a significant improvement. Feeding the DC30 from a dedicated PB4X4 Pro line conditioner doesn't hurt as well.


----------



## somestranger26

Do you ever use the I2S outputs on any of your USB converters? I wonder how the Breeze's I2S out would compare to this new DXIO one you got. I am not a big fan of SPDIF since the clock and the data are mixed in so a lot of the work is still left up to the digital filter etc. on the DAC.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> Do you ever use the I2S outputs on any of your USB converters? I wonder how the Breeze's I2S out would compare to this new DXIO one you got. I am not a big fan of SPDIF since the clock and the data are mixed in so a lot of the work is still left up to the digital filter etc. on the DAC.


No only the SPDIF coax and AES. The one draw back on the DXIO - no i2s or DSD. SPDIF coax or optical only. As with the Yellowtec PUC2 ( which is AES only).

As many knowledgeable folks have posted here and many highly respected Audio Engineers have stated i2s has it's own host of serious issues. Aside from the lack of standards. In fact the state of the art $2,400 Schiit Yggy DAC ommits i2s completely. The results I'm getting with a ref SPDIF cable are outstanding.


----------



## PWGuy

rb2013 said:


> I believe they all are, the seller adjusts the voltage to whatever the buyer requests. Btw, the TeraDak X1/X2 has two voltage ouputs, 5vdc from the USB, and an adjustable voltage from the 2.5mm cable. Pretty sure they are separate.
> 
> One other note the TeraDak DC-30w loves the Cerious Graphene Xtreme power cord, this makes a significant improvement. Feeding the DC30 from a dedicated PB4X4 Pro line conditioner doesn't hurt as well.




So there isn't an internal trimpot to adjust it for whatever you are trying to power?


----------



## rb2013

More evidence on the opinion of the best audio designers on i2s:
  
 Berkeley Audio Design - their $2000 Alpha USB interface - probably the best out there. Omits i2s as well:
http://www.berkeleyaudiodesign.com/alpha-usb/

  
 So this obsession with the latest buzz words in computer audio like i2s, DSD, DxD and 384K sampling rates is not shared with many top audio engineers.
  
 I love this review at 6moons of the totl Aqua HiFi La Scala MKii DAC - they ran SPDIF coax for the review from their USB interface  - not i2s. And the results from this $6,000 R2R DAC where simply stellar - from 'lowly' SPDIF Coax. 
  
 But I guess for some folks they have to have i2s - so I say happy trails to you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  
  
http://sixmoons.com/audioreviews2/aqua/1.html


----------



## rb2013

pwguy said:


> So there isn't an internal trim-pot to adjust it for whatever you are trying to power?


 

 Yes there is a trim-pot - but the adjustment requires a voltage meter and opening the case.  Of course doing the adjustment while powered up and the screw is very small - so not for the inexperienced - large voltages in there.  So I guess that's more then some buyers want to handle - understandably.  So I guess the sellers do the adjust themselves and just advertise the unit for one voltage to eliminate confusion.


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> No only the SPDIF coax and AES. The one draw back on the DXIO - no i2s or DSD. SPDIF coax or optical only. As with the Yellowtec PUC2 ( which is AES only).
> 
> As many knowledgeable folks have posted here and many highly respected Audio Engineers have stated i2s has it's own host of serious issues. Aside from the lack of standards. In fact the state of the art $2,400 Schiit Yggy DAC ommits i2s completely. The results I'm getting with a ref SPDIF cable are outstanding.


 
  
 I have a Breeze DU-U8 with Talema on the way. I might just have to get this DXIO to compare it for myself if you think it's that much better. So you think the Breeze and PUC are at a similar level, and then DXIO is another step up, correct?
  
 How does the DXIO compare to the Breeze without the DC-30W power supply? The switching procedure with the split cable sounds like a PITA since I would have to get up to change it every time. Do you have to do that if you sleep/resume or only if you shutdown?
  
 What RCA cable are you using? Ever tried an RCA-RCA adapter? I might end up going this route since the DXIO is pretty tiny and could easily be elevated to prevent strain on the RCA connectors.


----------



## roman410

rb2013 said:


> The DXIO Pro3 can be - in fact must be started with USB power leg connected - even when set for ext power.  But the SQ jumps significantly with the stock TeraDak DC-30.  Here the LH Labs Lightspeed 2G split cable is invaluable.  Just plug the power leg into any free USB port - then start playing - once the signal is detected unplug the power leg.  Takes 10 seconds.
> 
> One note - I tried to power the Pro3a with the 16,000mAh Li Ion battery from it;s USB port and the DXIO would not work.  The Li Ion worked fine on the Hydra Z - in the end I preferred the TeraDak X1/X2.  Never got to try the DC-30W as dumb old Audiobyte used a highly unstandard 2.3mm DC input vs the 2.5 that almost everyone else uses - like the DXIO, Wyred Remedy, Uptone Regen, etc...
> 
> ...


 
 I have this DXIO http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/54-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wauto-power-switch.html old version with auto switch to external power and work with  16,000mAh Li Ion battery without problem. I have 2 Li Ion batteries connect together. First is charging from USB charger connect to wall, and first one charge second from take USB power to drive DXIO an my Squeezebox touch. This way I believe have cleaner and not uninterrupted USB power. Also try powered DXIO from  Squeezebox touch USB port  and cheep 5V wall wart power supply and battery give my best sound. Back in time and compare DXIO with Gustard U12 and DXIO was clear winner.


----------



## rb2013

From Chord the $4500 Hugo TT and $6300 QBD76 - their latest statement DACs.  SPIDIF Coax Yes.                I2S - No.
  
 http://www.tonepublications.com/review/chord-qbd76-dac/


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> I have a Breeze DU-U8 with Talema on the way. I might just have to get this DXIO to compare it for myself if you think it's that much better. So you think the Breeze and PUC are at a similar level, and then DXIO is another step up, correct?
> 
> How does the DXIO compare to the Breeze without the DC-30W power supply? The switching procedure with the split cable sounds like a PITA since I would have to get up to change it every time. Do you have to do that if you sleep/resume or only if you shutdown?
> 
> What RCA cable are you using? Ever tried an RCA-RCA adapter? I might end up going this route since the DXIO is pretty tiny and could easily be elevated to prevent strain on the RCA connectors.


 

 Well I hope to swap the DXIO for a PUC2 lite - for a trial - soon.   So I would be able to tell you if the PUC2 is in the same league.
  
 Now the PUC2 does not have a DC input 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 like the DXIO.  So it'll have to be fed by the lesser TeraDak X1/X2



 Note no R-core transformer - but a small torodial.  Less power supply filtering.  So with the 2G split cable the PUC2 Lite can be fed with this LPS, but not the R-Core DC-30W.
  
 After rolling through about a dozen SPDIF digital RCA cables I settled on the Audio Sensibilites Statement SE Silver at 1.5M.  Very important to use a digital SPDIF cable at 1.5M length to minimize backwave reflections.  Also available in BNC to RCA, RCA to BNC, BNC to BNC, and of course RCA to RCA (the one I use).
  
 http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/digital-cables-occ-copper-and-occ-silver/#!/Statement-SE-Silver-S-PDIF-RCA-BNC-Digital-Cable/p/46391588/category=4059160


> Why is 1.5m the ideal length for a RCA/BNC digital cable?  Using a digital cable of at least 1.5m in length dramatically reduces the effect of signal reflection (from the receiver back to the transmitter) in typical audiophile equipment. Reflection contributes significantly to jitter in the digital signal. And of course jitter reduces the fidelity of digital music.
> In a perfect world where the impedance of the digital source transport (transmitter), transmission line (all wiring, cables, and connectors in between), and the input receiver (DAC) are all identically matched at the S/PDIF standard of 75 ohms, signal reflection is not an issue. But the reality is that this is almost impossible to achieve, particularly in the transmission line.
> The choice of 1.5m is just a practical guideline since no one wants a cable in their system that is too long.


 
  
 I still think the Breeze with the Crystek clocks - just may be the killer of killer DDC's.  Right now it is better then the DXIO powered by USB.  That's with the Cerious Graphene Xtreme power cable.
  
 This DXIO is a quirky little rascal - but the sound is amazing.  I'm really taken back at how good it it -and with each day's burnin, it's getting better.  The USB power leg only needs to be plugged in once music is playing, then can be unplugged.  I just use a front USB port so access is easy.  I was hoping the Li Ion battery would do the trick but for some reason it doesn't.  It could be that the it's a smart device and senses when there is no USB power demand and shuts off.  Since the DXIO is set to ext power, it's not drawing a current - but needs to 'see' an active power feed to turn on.
  
 Anyway - I found the solution.  Not elegant by any means but since I run my systems 24/7 - so my class A amps are always toasty (they sound best this way), it's no big deal for me.


----------



## rb2013

roman410 said:


> I have this DXIO http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/54-xmos-192khz-high-quality-usb-to-spdif-with-ultralow-noise-1uv-regulator-wauto-power-switch.html old version with auto switch to external power and work with  16,000mAh Li Ion battery without problem. I have 2 Li Ion batteries connect together. First is charging from USB charger connect to wall, and first one charge second from take USB power to drive DXIO an my Squeezebox touch. This way I believe have cleaner and not uninterrupted USB power. Also try powered DXIO from  Squeezebox touch USB port  and cheep 5V wall wart power supply and battery give my best sound. Back in time and compare DXIO with Gustard U12 and DXIO was clear winner.


 
 Well it doesn't work with this new one.  Run on USB power the Li Ion lights up to sense power delivery  - and the DXIO lights up (the red light inside the spdif optical lights - the only way to tell the unit is powered up).  But the PC will not see a USB device.  It could be the 2G cable - but I doubt it - since it works on USB power from a USB PC plug.  And activates with it set to ext power and the USB leg plugged in.
  
 I have another Li Ion I will try - maybe DIYinHK changed the circuit on the new ones?  These Li Ions can put out a lot of current  - up to 2A at 5VDC - peak.


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> The DXIO Pro3 can be - in fact must be started with USB power leg connected - even when set for ext power.  But the SQ jumps significantly with the stock TeraDak DC-30.  Here the LH Labs Lightspeed 2G split cable is invaluable.  Just plug the power leg into any free USB port - then start playing - once the signal is detected unplug the power leg.  Takes 10 seconds.
> 
> One note - I tried to power the Pro3a with the 16,000mAh Li Ion battery from it;s USB port and the DXIO would not work.  The Li Ion worked fine on the Hydra Z - in the end I preferred the TeraDak X1/X2.  Never got to try the DC-30W as dumb old Audiobyte used a highly unstandard 2.3mm DC input vs the 2.5 that almost everyone else uses - like the DXIO, Wyred Remedy, Uptone Regen, etc...
> 
> ...


 
  
 they probably use some IRF BJT or so. replacing it with Hynes means the whole DC reg has to be taken out. but Hynes reg is another level up for sure. that is why this is really fun to try.
  
 i have actually plan to put the DXIO inside the CAS and the CAS has 12V and 5V in with single RCA out (without USB).


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> they probably use some IRF BJT or so. replacing it with Hynes means the whole DC reg has to be taken out. but Hynes reg is another level up for sure. that is why this is really fun to try.
> 
> i have actually plan to put the DXIO inside the CAS and the CAS has 12V and 5V in with single RCA out (without USB).


 

 Well if the DXIO really turns out to beat a Crystek or NDK clocked Breeze - I might think of getting a Hynes for it.  $300+ for a power supply is a bit steep, but heck look at what I've spent on Cerious power cables.


----------



## rb2013

I will want to try an AudioGd DI-U8 - at some point this year.
 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DIU8/DIU8EN.htm
  
 At $350 it's in the doable range.  And I really like their new design.
  
 I would not be going through these USB bridge gymnastics if the pay-off wasn't worth it.  But with each successful step up - the return has been crazy good.
  
 Dollar of Dollar one of the best audio deals.


----------



## abartels

About Chord: no need for I2S because they have USB onboard, ,,,,


----------



## onlythat

rb- for the benefit of head-fi and really, all of humanity, I'm fixin' to send you a PUC 2 Lite to play with (gently) toward the end of this week.
 I read with interest your preliminary musings about this new young upstart contender, but there's a definite difference between a detailed component and a musical one You of course know that (and I've lost a lot of money over the past twenty years finding it out- that's for damn sure!) and we shall see if you think the PUC, if indeed any less detailed than the new guy, bears this out. (I won't name names, but one really famous component I've recently owned whose DAC was the poster child for me as regards 'detail' over 'music' rhymes with Lord Shmoogo 
 Only thing I'm worried about is that you'll have to use a 110ohm to 75ohm converter and I have no need of it due to my AES DAC input. As I have no experience with such hardware, curious how much you think your impressions might be skewed due to this bit of 'extra' meddling with the signal?
 Also, as with i2s connections and Sabre dacs, I say (and so do you it's the implementation of a thing and the circuit context into which its placed that's makes or breaks it and not the specific chip or clock or what have you in and of itself. 
 The PUC for one, definitely has a different golf swing than the others in terms of what's inside and yet it plays on the professional level Ah- the Lee Trevino of converters.


----------



## FredA

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ULPNC-172dBc-Ultra-Low-Phase-Noise-High-Precision-Ultra-Low-Noise-Circuit-/231513578358?hash=item35e748db76:g:nX8AAOSwPhdVERFl

I might venture into fitting these in the breeze. I don't how serious this cie is but the trick is the clock comes with its .1 uv regulattion and its specs are over the top. This could be an easilly reversible change if you leave the current clock regulators in, as long as they don't use too much current without any output drawn. If it improves the sound, you could then remove the small clock regulators and have max performance. Any thought on this? It's also 140$ a pair not cheap. Might get tempted soon as i said. I have a di2014 as a backup if **** hits the fan which i doubt.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> About Chord: no need for I2S because they have USB onboard, ,,,,


 

 Well so does the La Scala and the Yggy every other DAC from $200 up built today - but as John Swenson points out, and has been mentioned on this thread numerous times, an external USB bridge can produce better sound - even using SPDIF coax.  The reason is the high level of 'packet noise' generated by processing the USB data stream.  There is no way these built in boards can match a totl external DDC like the Berkeley Alpha.
  
 For example in the 6Moons review of the $6,000 La Scala Mk ii - it has a XMOS USB board - but the reviewers still went with an external.  Speaking to my friend who has the $6,000 PS Audio Direct Stream - the OR5 is quite a it better then the built in board.
  
 From chief engineer at Uptone John Senson:


> Remember that SI consists of rise/fall time, noise, and jitter. The jitter in the SIGNAL is determined by the transmitter PHY, which can be significantly influenced by the clock IT gets and the noise on its PG planes. USUALLY noise is low on the signal as it exits the PHY. The cable (and connectors) cause an increase in raise/fall times, added noise (EMI and crosstalk from power and ground wires) and decreased amplitude of the signal. Any decent receiver will have an automatic gain control (AGC) which compensates for this effect, but that raises the noise on the signal, so I'm lumping the amplitude decrease into noise. The cable by itself rarely adds jitter to the signal, BUT the increased rise/fall times and extra noise cause the received data to have increased jitter in the PHY. This is one of the big issues that all that extra processing is designed to deal with.
> 
> *When that XMOS chip is dealing with data from the host it is generating its own noise on the PG planes, part of the noise will be from the PHY and part from the MAC. The PHY part can change due to SI of the USB signal, the rest cannot, it stays the same. If separate ground planes and separate power supplies are not used, that noise can directly affect the DAC chip(s) and the master clock oscillator. As was posted from a previous post of mine, even if separate supplies and planes are used with isolation between them, the effects of this noise still winds up at the DAC chip and clock.*
> 
> ...


 
  
 If you read 6Moons DAC reviews - almost always the latest generation of totl DACs sound better with an external USB Bridge versus the internal board. 
  
 In fact I would say that even an external USB bridge should be run on a separate AC Line with both common mode and differential mode noise isolation - from the DAC.  I know I can hear a difference when I went to a separate P4X4 Pro's for the DDC's and DAC's.


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> rb- for the benefit of head-fi and really, all of humanity, I'm fixin' to send you a PUC 2 Lite to play with (gently) toward the end of this week.
> I read with interest your preliminary musings about this new young upstart contender, but there's a definite difference between a detailed component and a musical one You of course know that (and I've lost a lot of money over the past twenty years finding it out- that's for damn sure!) and we shall see if you think the PUC, if indeed any less detailed than the new guy, bears this out. (I won't name names, but one really famous component I've recently owned whose DAC was the poster child for me as regards 'detail' over 'music' rhymes with Lord Shmoogo
> Only thing I'm worried about is that you'll have to use a 110ohm to 75ohm converter and I have no need of it due to my AES DAC input. As I have no experience with such hardware, curious how much you think your impressions might be skewed due to this bit of 'extra' meddling with the signal?
> Also, as with i2s connections and Sabre dacs, I say (and so do you it's the implementation of a thing and the circuit context into which its placed that's makes or breaks it and not the specific chip or clock or what have you in and of itself.
> The PUC for one, definitely has a different golf swing than the others in terms of what's inside and yet it plays on the professional level Ah- the Lee Trevino of converters.


 

 Well thanks!  I will send you the DXIO - you have a TeraDak right?  We can then compare notes.  You make a good point on the AES to SPDIF conversion.  I have nice Canare and some bnc attenuators - which need to be used to reduce the AES signal and not overload the SPDIF recevier. 
  
 Yes the age old trade-off of 'detail' and 'sweetness' - Let me tell you the DXIO is sounding sweet and Uber detailed.  Now it is not as forgiving yet as the Breeze - so a lot will depend on your down stream portion of your system.   Needless to say I have been refining mine for a while now.  Just to show you the level of refinement.  I rolled over 20 different RCA interconnects between my DAC and my amp in the main system.  Finally settling on the $800 (when I bought it - now they are $1000) Aural Thrills Audio tubed bias shielded BCS interconnects.  The tube powered shielding is not in the circuit  - but only energizes the active shielding system.  Then rolled a half dozen power cables for it (each making a small but noticeable difference), settling on the Shunyata Venom.  Then rolled a dozen different 12au7 tubes - again each making a small but noticable difference - settling on the  '60 Mullard black plates.  And that was just to nail that leg of the system down.  The air, transparency and tonal richness was a clear step ahead of any other cable I tried.  And so it goes throughout my system -focusing intently on each part - trying a slew of different approaches.
  

  
  
 Looking forward to the PUC2 lite!
  
 Cheers!


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/ULPNC-172dBc-Ultra-Low-Phase-Noise-High-Precision-Ultra-Low-Noise-Circuit-/231513578358?hash=item35e748db76:g:nX8AAOSwPhdVERFl
> 
> I might venture into fitting these in the breeze. I don't how serious this cie is but the trick is the clock comes with its .1 uv regulattion and its specs are over the top. This could be an easilly reversible change if you leave the current clock regulators in, as long as they don't use too much current without any output drawn. If it improves the sound, you could then remove the small clock regulators and have max performance. Any thought on this? It's also 140$ a pair not cheap. Might get tempted soon as i said. I have a di2014 as a backup if **** hits the fan which i doubt.


 

 That looks like the clocks in the new DU-I8 - but hard to tell until a high resolution photo of the board is posted.
  
 Now on the specs - the phase noise measurements at 1MHz are very good - but all these clocks have curves that are downward sloped.  So the measurements at those extreme frequencies are usually very good.  More important for audio purposes are the measurements in the audio band 20Hz to 20kHz.  Especially in the mid- band 1kHz to 15kHz.
  
 There are issues at getting accurate measurements of clock phase noise below 100Hz due to aliasing and test equipment interaction issues.
  
 It would be interesting to see those measurements as compared to the Crystek CCHD-957's or NDK SD's. 
  
 The chart below are the plots for the Crystek TXCO CCHD-957 (jagged blue line), NDK TXCO SB (solid blue), NDK TXCO SD (red line) unnamed OXCO (green line).  As you can see below 2.5kHz the NDK SD's are the best TXCO and above 2.5kHz the Crystek CCHD-957's are superior by a large margin over the other TXCOs and even the OXCO clocks.  By -12dB!  Remember each -3dB is a halving of the noise level.


----------



## rb2013

I see the phase noise plot - the numbers do look very good.  And SK sourced - SK made?
  
 Nice find!


----------



## onlythat

Yes! There is definitely the ol' detail v. sweetness battle when one is comparing components, but as you know, certain components (cables included) just have a certain something else too; they are not just 'sweeter' but more engaging. I think it's down to PRaT. I mean, I think some of my other converters might be near as detailed as the PUC (not like the audiophileo isn't detailed, for example), but there is something about the PUC (Something About Mary) in terms of the way it draws you in and plays music (and a well cabled Breeze does this too); the staging, the tonal purity, the pace etc. I knew it as soon as I put the PUC into my system; bam. 
 I could say the same for my Chord Silver Plus USB cable; some other cables I've had are as detailed, but aren't for some reason as involving. That's why your LightSpeed 2G is so good; its detailed sure, but also lets dynamics and pace through. It isn't boring. Had this experience a couple years ago with an Audio Research LS17 pre which uses 6H30 tubes (as many new pres do); was more detailed than older versions with (I think?) 6dj8 tubes, but not near as engaging to me musically. The older ones weren't merely 'sweeter'; they just seemed more all around musical to me somehow. I wanted to listen more. Yup- definitely more to it than detail vs sweetness in terms of musical engagement...

ps- damn those are some 'advanced' technological cables! Very shagadellic!! And yes, I'm using a Teradak (the 80 dollar one) as LPS for my PUC with the 2G cable.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I see the phase noise plot - the numbers do look very good.  And SK sourced - SK made?
> 
> Nice find!




Not sure where it is sourced from.

 I asked Kingwa about the di-u8 by the way, he does not seem to be convinced it is much better than the di2014 if any. I much prefer the breeze but i have the cheap transfo in the di2014.

I am not sure about this clock mod, i think i have to figure a way to reduce ground noise furthermore. I am thinking about the 6-moons quote above. I think the problem is not noise in itselt but the fact that the zero reference is not perfectly equal between the components. Something like being on shaking floors with not perfectly syncronized shaking if you see what i mean. The ground reference is coming through 2 different path in the dac, especially with i2s. With the isolation transfo of spdif, it should not be such a big problem but then jitter cannot be better than that of the spdif receiver, with is way higher than the breeze's level in my case. Maybe the solution is to use multiple transfos with common reference in the i2s connection, i don't know. I would have to reflect on this. Maybe none of this is relevant, i am not an expert. Just some thoughts.


----------



## FredA

I looked for some spec for tcxo clocks used by audio-gd. Look like it is quite low, less than 0.3 ppm. Maybe i would get better results with a balanced connection. I might try to order the best bulk aes cable available and mount it on a pair of neutrik to give it a try. Might get an easy upgrade for not much.

 On the orher hand, people seem to all agree that i2s is the best input on the master-7. Depends on the spdif cable however, which people tend neglect.


----------



## hgpsemaj

I2S supports 32B 384kHz and native DSD (i.e. not DOP.).


----------



## abartels

Bob,
  
 I didn't put 10 R-Cores in my dac for their weight or fun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And, those comprehensive EMI filters with a lot of cabling, no, not for fun, and wooden - seperated  - subchassis for psu and dac and I2S, not for fun,
 even the copper plating/shielding was not for fun 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I proved the opposite, it definitely is possible to build a dac with integrated I2S-USB module with VERY high quality. It can be compared with analog sound, but with resolution and dynamics which exceeds it by far,,,
  
 It all starts with extensive filtering, if noise from usb wants to interfere with one of the 9 other power lines, it has to travel thru 2x differential mode filters (in 2x psu's) AND 3x Common mode AND differential mode filters!
  
  
  
 I need some comparison with other (very expensive) dac's, I will try to arrange this in the coming month.
  
 But, thanks for clarification 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Just couldn't understand why bringing up those Hugo dac's while review says it sounds Digital, and there wasn't any moment he could relax from it, hmmm,,,
  
  
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> Yes there is a trim-pot - but the adjustment requires a voltage meter and opening the case.  Of course doing the adjustment while powered up and the screw is very small - so not for the inexperienced - large voltages in there.  So I guess that's more then some buyers want to handle - understandably.  So I guess the sellers do the adjust themselves and just advertise the unit for one voltage to eliminate confusion.


 
  
 I have done this several times, toggle between 12V and 5V by adjusting the trimpot. in the end, got tired, potential for lost track of the voltage. so in a rush, one may connect a 12V supply to a 5V device. warning !


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> Well if the DXIO really turns out to beat a Crystek or NDK clocked Breeze - I might think of getting a Hynes for it.  $300+ for a power supply is a bit steep, but heck look at what I've spent on Cerious power cables.


 
  
 I would think try to give diyinhk LT 3042 (1uV) reg a try. its USD 45 and gives you a dual for which you can buy a dual 6V output toroid and small enough casing to house the DXIO, reg and toroid inside.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Not sure where it is sourced from.
> 
> I asked Kingwa about the di-u8 by the way, he does not seem to be convinced it is much better than the di2014 if any. I much prefer the breeze but i have the cheap transfo in the di2014.
> 
> I am not sure about this clock mod, i think i have to figure a way to reduce ground noise furthermore. I am thinking about the 6-moons quote above. I think the problem is not noise in itselt but the fact that the zero reference is not perfectly equal between the components. Something like being on shaking floors with not perfectly syncronized shaking if you see what i mean. The ground reference is coming through 2 different path in the dac, especially with i2s. With the isolation transfo of spdif, it should not be such a big problem but then jitter cannot be better than that of the spdif receiver, with is way higher than the breeze's level in my case. Maybe the solution is to use multiple transfos with common reference in the i2s connection, i don't know. I would have to reflect on this. Maybe none of this is relevant, i am not an expert. Just some thoughts.


 

 You might want to try a Wyred for sound Remedy and a short spdif rca to rca connector. The Remedy reclocks the spdif with a Crystek CCHD-957 and acts as a spdif buffer and upsampler.  It worked great on my DAC60 (where I had already upgraded the clock to a TXCO Vanguard) - and slightly improved the APL NWOjr (which already has great clocks).
  
 Interesting the Brreze was better then the di2014.  Do you have picture of the di2014 board - I thought that used the OEM TXCO JYEC Chinese clocks like the Breeze, Gustard, Melodious.  I know that Audiogd was even selling these clocks for awhile.  But on the DU-I8 the clocks are different


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I looked for some spec for tcxo clocks used by audio-gd. Look like it is quite low, less than 0.3 ppm. Maybe i would get better results with a balanced connection. I might try to order the best bulk aes cable available and mount it on a pair of neutrik to give it a try. Might get an easy upgrade for not much.
> 
> On the orher hand, people seem to all agree that i2s is the best input on the master-7. Depends on the spdif cable however, which people tend neglect.


 

 You want to find a phase noise plot or at least some various freq measurements.
  
 The generic OEM TXCO clocks like in the Breeze, Gustard, and Melodious are just like the JYEC or Vanguard (it seems the manufacturer will custom stamp the top cover with your logo if you order enough).
 The only measurement I have seen is at 1kHz -125db.  Not great.  But they are rated at 0.1ppm


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Bob,
> 
> I didn't put 10 R-Cores in my dac for their weight or fun
> 
> ...


 
 Now that's the approach!  Not shared power supplies with USB boards like you see on many DACs.  Where have you seen that kind of attention to USB board isolation any where else?  Nice work Alex.  But for those who are not up to building a DAC with 9 separate R-core power supplies - the separate USB bridge with a good dedicated AC filter is the way to go.  Those Art Audio PB4X4Pro's are only $80.


ccschua said:


> I would think try to give diyinhk LT 3042 (1uV) reg a try. its USD 45 and gives you a dual for which you can buy a dual 6V output toroid and small enough casing to house the DXIO, reg and toroid inside.


 
 Good suggestion - Paul does do some neat work.  I think a modded/upgraded TeraDak DC-30W with a Cerious Graphene power cord should do the trick.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> You might want to try a Wyred for sound Remedy and a short spdif rca to rca connector. The Remedy reclocks the spdif with a Crystek CCHD-957 and acts as a spdif buffer and upsampler.  It worked great on my DAC60 (where I had already upgraded the clock to a TXCO Vanguard) - and slightly improved the APL NWOjr (which already has great clocks).
> 
> Interesting the Brreze was better then the di2014.  Do you have picture of the di2014 board - I thought that used the OEM TXCO JYEC Chinese clocks like the Breeze, Gustard, Melodious.  I know that Audiogd was even selling these clocks for awhile.  But on the DU-I8 the clocks are different


 
 Or maybe this: could be the breakthough ingredient I am missing: galvanic isolation of my rj45 i2s connection (clean ground at last!).
  
 http://www.ttl-network.de/news-details/new-rj45-network-galvanic-isolator.html


----------



## rb2013

hgpsemaj said:


> I2S supports 32B 384kHz and native DSD (i.e. not DOP.).


 
 I'll just quote Mike Moffat from Schiit Audio about the decsion to omit DSD native and i2s on their newest sota flagship DAC the $2400 Yggdrasil:
  


> *What about DSD?*
> Yggdrasil won’t do DSD, no way, no how.
> 
> *But what if I want DSD?*
> ...


 
  
 Oh and his comments on 32bit audio:
  


> *Wait, what is this about 32-bit music?*
> How much 32 bit music do you have? (Not that it will ever exist—we can't get the noise floor that low. Period. Unless Dr. Who pays us a visit and drops some alien tech on us...) Also, how many giga-rate DSD recordings do you have? None, because they don't exist.


 
 But look at the DAC and filter technology they put into that unit - amazing stuff - and they did include SPDIF Coax, BNC, & AES - just sayn'


----------



## rb2013

Here is another highly acclaimed $10,000 DAC The TotalDAC D1- no i2s or native DSD std.  SPDIF coax Yes.
  
 Do you think all these great designers omit i2s because it costs to much to include?
  
 http://www.totaldac.com/D1-tube-eng.htm
  

  
 Now where you see DSD and i2s offered a lot is on S-D DACs in the $400 to $900 range.  Buzz words sell.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> You might want to try a Wyred for sound Remedy and a short spdif rca to rca connector. The Remedy reclocks the spdif with a Crystek CCHD-957 and acts as a spdif buffer and upsampler.  It worked great on my DAC60 (where I had already upgraded the clock to a TXCO Vanguard) - and slightly improved the APL NWOjr (which already has great clocks).
> 
> Interesting the Brreze was better then the di2014.  Do you have picture of the di2014 board - I thought that used the OEM TXCO JYEC Chinese clocks like the Breeze, Gustard, Melodious.  I know that Audiogd was even selling these clocks for awhile.  But on the DU-I8 the clocks are different




The di2014 is a single-clock design based on the via usb32 chip. I have the standard transfo but upgraded clock which i believe is 0.3ppm (compared to .1 for the breeze).

http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DI2014/DI2014EN.htm


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> The di2014 is a single-clock design based on the via usb32 chip. I have the standard transfo but upgraded clock which i believe is 0.3ppm (compared to .1 for the breeze).
> 
> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DI2014/DI2014EN.htm


 

 I see - so for the di2014 there where two upgrade options - one was the R-core transformer and the other the TXCO clock - or dual clocks?
  
 It looks like it just comes std now with the R-core and has three clocks - two audio clocks (on the lower left) and a USB clock (lower right).
  
 It would be nice to know which LDO's he is using.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I see - so for the di2014 there where two upgrade options - one was the R-core transformer and the other the TXCO clock - or dual clocks?
> 
> It looks like it just comes std now with the R-core and has three clocks - two audio clocks (on the lower left) and a USB clock (lower right).
> 
> It would be nice to know which LDO's he is using.


 
 That's it. R-Core and TCXO (1). The via chip cannot work with 2 clocks as far as i know. At least, not with the implementation used by audio-gd. 
  
 I am looking for galvanic isolation now. That should do it for me. There is also this product to considerer (besides the rj45 isolator I mentioned earlier) although it does not seem to work consistently with all usb receivers according to a Computer Audiophile thread.
  
http://www.ttl-network.de/news-details/new-rj45-network-galvanic-isolator.html
  
 I would rather go the i2s way. Much more likely to work properly IMO and thus i would still be using the best input of the M7 according to experts. I have tried spdif over bnc with a dhlabs cable and preferred i2s).


----------



## m usicguy

Hi Gustard u12 users!!
  
 I just ordered mine off amazon free shipping.  Im updating from an original v link.   Will i get it?  Will it be better?
  
 Im not into modding stuff.
  
 musicguy


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> That's it. R-Core and TCXO (1). The via chip cannot work with 2 clocks as far as i know. At least, not with the implementation used by audio-gd.
> 
> I am looking for galvanic isolation now. That should do it for me. There is also this product to considerer (besides the rj45 isolator I mentioned earlier) although it does not seem to work consistently with all usb receivers according to a Computer Audiophile thread.
> 
> ...


 

 So I'm a little confused on the new DU-I8 - it does use the two audio clocks shown - or only one - or none - just the clock on the right?
  
 Good luck with your i2s isolation project.


----------



## rb2013

m usicguy said:


> Hi Gustard u12 users!!
> 
> I just ordered mine off amazon free shipping.  Im updating from an original v link.   Will i get it?  Will it be better?
> 
> ...


 

 It should beat the vlink handily - are you planning on using i2s from it?  If so be sure to get the latest - correct - wiring.


----------



## riffer

I took some not particularly good photos of the insides of my Off-Ramp:

http://www.head-fi.org/g/a/1037090/empirical-audio-off-ramp/


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> So I'm a little confused on the new DU-I8 - it does use the two audio clocks shown - or only one - or none - just the clock on the right?
> 
> Good luck with your i2s isolation project.


 
 Well the di-u8 has a whole new board with with xmos u8 and 2 clocks. Superior in my opinion to the usb32 board, that had only one clock and probably an inferior processing chip (via). The rest of the di2014 looks mostly the same. R-core is standard on the di-u8.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> So I'm a little confused on the new DU-I8 - it does use the two audio clocks shown - or only one - or none - just the clock on the right?
> 
> Good luck with your i2s isolation project.


 
 Ordered this:
  
 https://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/pcaudio/lan_isolator.html
  
 I think it should make a difference.


----------



## panhead

freda said:


> Ordered this:
> 
> https://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/pcaudio/lan_isolator.html
> 
> I think it should make a difference.


 
 Yes it does!


----------



## FredA

panhead said:


> Yes it does!




Have you tried it with an i2s rj45 connection? 

I am looking for the perfect digital sound and i am really close to having it (very organic and musical, with excellent balance, detail and spatiality). Just hoping to be the final improvment if ever this is possible for someone who is affected by the audiophile disease.


----------



## rb2013

riffer said:


> I took some not particularly good photos of the insides of my Off-Ramp:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/g/a/1037090/empirical-audio-off-ramp/


 

 Hey thanks!  Cool looking - I guess the clocks are under the top board, so can't be seen, and you do not have the turbo clock board option.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Well the di-u8 has a whole new board with with xmos u8 and 2 clocks. Superior in my opinion to the usb32 board, that had only one clock and probably an inferior processing chip (via). The rest of the di2014 looks mostly the same. R-core is standard on the di-u8.


 
 Yes I see -  well having the two separate audio clocks and XMOS would make a difference.  Wondering which clocks those are.
  


freda said:


> Ordered this:
> 
> https://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/pcaudio/lan_isolator.html
> 
> I think it should make a difference.


 
 Good luck
  
 That strand surface eddy effect they mention is the reason I use only solid wire in my modding.  Mundorf Solid Silver/Teflon and Solid .9999 Copper/ Teflon.  No stranded twists for me!


----------



## panhead

freda said:


> Have you tried it with an i2s rj45 connection?
> 
> I am looking for the perfect digital sound and i am really close to having it (very organic and musical, with excellent balance, detail and spatiality). Just hoping to be the final improvment if ever this is possible for someone who is affected by the audiophile disease.


 
 No,   just using to isolate network noise from streaming pc.....


----------



## riffer

rb2013 said:


> Hey thanks!  Cool looking - I guess the clocks are under the top board, so can't be seen, and you do not have the turbo clock board option.



 


I was thinking of pulling of the board to see what was under there, but didn't want to mess with it.


----------



## rb2013

riffer said:


> rb2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey thanks!  Cool looking - I guess the clocks are under the top board, so can't be seen, and you do not have the turbo clock board option.
> ...


 

 Don't blame you - I wouldn't


----------



## rb2013

Just ordered a second TeraDak DC-30W - this one for the DXIO Pro3a or Remedy - haven't decided which.  But noticed it has different caps (looks like better and larger Pannie FM's) and a slightly different layout.  The little blue voltage adjustment is there.  This one was advertised as a 10V for the Weiss int203.  Dual regulators - vs just one.  It was $129 plus $22 for shipping.


----------



## conquerator2

Looking forward to A-gd DI-U8 vs Breeze


----------



## FredA

panhead said:


> No,   just using to isolate network noise from streaming pc.....




I had to cancel the Acoustic Revive rli-1. I needed the 1 gigabit version which is 50% more expensive and hard to find. The rli-1 only has 2 out of 4 wire pairs since it is a 100 megabit/s device. The rj45 i2s connection uses the 4 pairs.

I have ordered this instead:

https://www.reichelt.com/EMO-EN-70E/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=446&ARTICLE=145550&artnr=EMO+EN-70E&SEARCH=network+isolator

It contains basically just one high-bandwith isolaton transformer per pair of wires, 4 in total, nothing else. These transformer must be very expensive!


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Looking forward to A-gd DI-U8 vs Breeze


 

 Nice!  Me too


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> Nice!  Me too


 
 I still own the DI-V2014. I mostly use the optical input, which is a very handy feature for me and that none of the competition seems to have [which makes it a keeper].
 However, the USB implementation [USB32], while different and slightly better than the stock Gustard, does not sound as good as the Breeze IMO.
 It is less smooth up top and does not extend to the sub-bass as well. Very detailed and articulate but just too bright for my blood.
 I assume this will be greatly improved thanks to the XMOS in the  DI-U8, which I always found more to my liking than the USB32 but whether it can match the Breeze or surpass it even, remains to be heard 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And it won't have it easy


----------



## PWGuy

rb2013 said:


> Just ordered a second TeraDak DC-30W - this one for the DXIO Pro3a or Remedy - haven't decided which.  But noticed it has different caps (looks like better and larger Pannie FM's) and a slightly different layout.  The little blue voltage adjustment is there.  This one was advertised as a 10V for the Weiss int203.  Dual regulators - vs just one.  It was $129 plus $22 for shipping.




Any chance you could do a shoot out from the "first gen" DC-30W?


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> I still own the DI-V2014. I mostly use the optical input, which is a very handy feature for me and that none of the competition seems to have [which makes it a keeper].
> However, the USB implementation [USB32], while different and slightly better than the stock Gustard, does not sound as good as the Breeze IMO.
> It is less smooth up top and does not extend to the sub-bass as well. Very detailed and articulate but just too bright for my blood.
> I assume this will be greatly improved thanks to the XMOS in the  DI-U8, which I always found more to my liking than the USB32 but whether it can match the Breeze or surpass it even, remains to be heard
> ...


 

 That new DU-I8 is definitely on my 'to try' list - maybe right after the PUC2 Lite makes makes an appearance here for a little face-off.
  
 If you can a few detailed photos of the audio clocks on the DU-I8 would be great.


----------



## rb2013

pwguy said:


> Any chance you could do a shoot out from the "first gen" DC-30W?


 

 Yes will do - before doing the cap modding (this version may not need that with Pannie FM's already in place).
  
 I have been running the smaller TeraDak X1/X2 on the DXIO (using the 5VDC USB plug on the X1 and the wonderful 2G split cable power leg plugged in there) - sounds very, very good.  I needed the DC-30W back in my office system to power the Remedy.  And no need to do the plug - unplug routine.  I'll put this in the LPS shootout as well.  It'll get the better caps mod too.
  
 The DXIO Pro3a is really blooming now - super sweet and musical and uber detailed.  This is one killer great DDC.
  
 FWI There is a 2meter 2G cable listed on Audiogon for a decent price.  If you need a long USB cable this is a great choice.  Listed for $175


----------



## rb2013

MQA looks like it's getting some strong support - this is a trend worth watching.
  
 http://www.stereophile.com/content/mqa-takes-big-time-2016#w2LkYYqI5B24IUyr.97


----------



## panhead

freda said:


> I had to cancel the Acoustic Revive rli-1. I needed the 1 gigabit version which is 50% more expensive and hard to find. The rli-1 only has 2 out of 4 wire pairs since it is a 100 megabit/s device. The rj45 i2s connection uses the 4 pairs.
> 
> I have ordered this instead:
> 
> ...


 
 Let us know how it works out.


----------



## FredA

conquerator2 said:


> I still own the DI-V2014. I mostly use the optical input, which is a very handy feature for me and that none of the competition seems to have [which makes it a keeper].
> However, the USB implementation [USB32], while different and slightly better than the stock Gustard, does not sound as good as the Breeze IMO.
> It is less smooth up top and does not extend to the sub-bass as well. Very detailed and articulate but just too bright for my blood.
> I assume this will be greatly improved thanks to the XMOS in the  DI-U8, which I always found more to my liking than the USB32 but whether it can match the Breeze or surpass it even, remains to be heard   And it won't have it easy




Agreed. The Breeze outclassed the di2014 within 8 hours of breaking-in in my setup, which surprised me, to say the least. I expected it to be better but not so much so. I also will keep the di2014 for reclocking purposes (oppo 103 cd/dvd/br spinner). It is excellent at it.

I expect it to be a close match between the breeze and the di-u8. The first stage of power filtering is better on the di-u8, but the clock are perhaps better on the breeze. So it should be very close. The di-u8 is of higher quality, better components in general and better chassis but the breeze is a simpler design since it only does one thing, that helps.


----------



## FredA

panhead said:


> Let us know how it works out.




I will. It is a great pleasure to share imformations on this forum.


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> Yes will do - before doing the cap modding (this version may not need that with Pannie FM's already in place).
> 
> I have been running the smaller TeraDak X1/X2 on the DXIO (using the 5VDC USB plug on the X1 and the wonderful 2G split cable power leg plugged in there) - sounds very, very good.  I needed the DC-30W back in my office system to power the Remedy.  And no need to do the plug - unplug routine.  I'll put this in the LPS shootout as well.  It'll get the better caps mod too.
> 
> ...


 
  
 you can consider the custom made DC power supply, which uses the R-core and similar DC topology at a lower costs. if interested, pm me for details.
  
 the custom made power supply can be configured with multiple output (12V for CAS, 5V for clock/PPA/USB card, 5V for DXIO, another 12/9V for future). below is the dedicated power with isolation tranny for the 4 dedicated DC group.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Agreed. The Breeze outclassed the di2014 within 8 hours of breaking-in in my setup, which surprised me, to say the least. I expected it to be better but not so much so. I also will keep the di2014 for reclocking purposes (oppo 103 cd/dvd/br spinner). It is excellent at it.
> 
> I expect it to be a close match between the breeze and the di-u8. The first stage of power filtering is better on the di-u8, but the clock are perhaps better on the breeze. So it should be very close. The di-u8 is of higher quality, better components in general and better chassis but the breeze is a simpler design since it only does one thing, that helps.


 

 Well I will be doing a clock upgrade mod on the Breeze to totl Crystek CCHD-957 and may try the NDK SD's as well.  But mounting those little guys on a DIP14 adapter is like doing brain surgery.   I do like the strong attention to power supply filtering and regulation on the DI-U8, and the use of an R-core transformer (they tend to have better PSRR then the torodial kind)  But the Breeze is no slouch there either using the excellent LDO LM2941 in not just one, but in a dual stage configuration.
  
 Should be an interesting match up.  One note the Breeze is very sensitive to a good power cord - so I would try it with something better then the $5 stock one.
 The total cost of a $250 power cord like the Cerious Graphene Xtreme and the $150 for the Talema Breeze is more, but not by a large margin then the DI-U8 alone.
  
 PS I just read this on the Audio-gd website:


> Two model coaxial outputs * :
> BNC (Applied Current Conveyor Technology,support up to 16 / 24-Bit ， 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, 192kHz)*
> RCA (Transformer  Transmit insulate ,support up to 16 / 24-Bit ， 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, 192kHz with most DACs )
> 
> ...


 
  
 So you can try with both outputs, even with a SPDIF RCA digital cable.  Just need a BNC to RCA adapter.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> you can consider the custom made DC power supply, which uses the R-core and similar DC topology at a lower costs. if interested, pm me for details.
> 
> the custom made power supply can be configured with multiple output (12V for CAS, 5V for clock/PPA/USB card, 5V for DXIO, another 12/9V for future). below is the dedicated power with isolation tranny for the 4 dedicated DC group.


 

 Nice!  How much for the parts for a two voltage version?  $100?


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Well I will be doing a clock upgrade mod on the Breeze to totl Crystek CCHD-957 and may try the NDK SD's as well.  But mounting those little guys on a DIP14 adapter is like doing brain surgery.   I do like the strong attention to power supply filtering and regulation on the DI-U8, and the use of an R-core transformer (they tend to have better PSRR then the torodial kind)  But the Breeze is no slouch there either using the excellent LDO LM2941 in not just one, but in a dual stage configuration.
> 
> Should be an interesting match up.  One note the Breeze is very sensitive to a good power cord - so I would try it with something better then the $5 stock one.
> The total cost of a $250 power cord like the Cerious Graphene Xtreme and the $150 for the Talema Breeze is more, but not by a large margin then the DI-U8 alone.
> ...




Well about soldering the clocks, in case you would not know, you can use some flux like this, in a syringe with a tinyer tip:

http://www.amazon.ca/MG-Chemicals-Corrosive-Conductive-Residue/dp/B0080X79HG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1452053516&sr=8-1&keywords=Flux

I makes the tin stick very quicly wherever you put the flux. I am about to assemble some xlr cables and just ordered some tonight, in bottle.


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> Nice!  How much for the parts for a two voltage version?  $100?


 
  
 probably doable, but without delivery costs.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Well about soldering the clocks, in case you would not know, you can use some flux like this, in a syringe with a tinyer tip:
> 
> http://www.amazon.ca/MG-Chemicals-Corrosive-Conductive-Residue/dp/B0080X79HG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1452053516&sr=8-1&keywords=Flux
> 
> I makes the tin stick very quicly wherever you put the flux. I am about to assemble some xlr cables and just ordered some tonight, in bottle.


 
 Actually low temperatrue soldering paste like this:
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/huc/view.html?ie=UTF8&newItems=C3D7QILT2C23YQ%2C1
  
 and a hot air soldering gun like this:
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Soldering-Rework-Station-Display-Nozzle/dp/B013DQQ4XO/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1452093058&sr=8-5&keywords=hot+air+soldering+gun
  
 I already have the DIP14 sockets and DIP pin adapters


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> Yes and a hot air soldering gun like this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Soldering-Rework-Station-Display-Nozzle/dp/B013DQQ4XO/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1452093058&sr=8-5&keywords=hot+air+soldering+gun
> 
> I already have the DIP14 sockets and DIP pin adapters


 
  
 its so cheap. how about the solder paste ? also how do you apply solder paste to the pads ?


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Actually low temperatrue soldering paste like this:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/huc/view.html?ie=UTF8&newItems=C3D7QILT2C23YQ%2C1
> 
> and a hot air soldering gun like this:
> ...


 
 You are all set. You might find some videos on youtube with useful tips. Amazing the quantity of useful videos there.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> its so cheap. how about the solder paste ? also how do you apply solder paste to the pads ?


 

 I updated the post to low temp soldering paste from just flux.
  
 Well I suppose you apply to the adapter pads  - place the clock on top then heat.  The low temp solder then melts to make the connection.  Maybe some tape to secure the clock to the adapter.  That's for the CCHD-957s - which have contacts that lineup well with the adapter pads.
  
 Now on the NDK SD's you'll need to solder in fine wires to the contacts - glue the clock to the adapter then solder the fine wires to the adapter.  Don't forget on the NDK they require a .1uf bypass cap.  I have adapters that allow the cap to be soldered in a separate place.
  
 The clock/apadtert is then just plugged into the sockets.
  
 Here is a MX-U8 I have ready for the clocks:


----------



## rb2013

Here are some other folks finished clocks:


----------



## rb2013

Here is Alex's amazing soldering work connecting the NDK SDs to the DIP adapters


----------



## abartels




----------



## abartels

That was funny, thought, hmm, have I posted the picture twice? Hahahahaha
  
 With those adapter boards it's not that difficult, just put a little solder on those 4 pads, take some adhesive tape and push NDK on its place,
 then just hold the iron on the outside of a solderpad, it solders immediately. During soldering just keep a finger on the adhesive tape and press
 a little on NDK. If two contacts ar soldred, remove tape and solder the other two.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


>


 

 Like I've said you should have been a brain surgeon!


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> That was funny, thought, hmm, have I posted the picture twice? Hahahahaha


 

 Great minds think alike!
  
  
 Alex you connected the bypass cap to the bottom of the adapter - or to the bottom of the board?


----------



## abartels

Hahaha 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I soldered the 0.1 uF MKP cap on the bottom of the adapterboard, very easy to accomplish 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 If you could lay hand on a Styroflex 0.1 uF that would be best, but most of them are too big,,,,


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hahaha
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I have a small supply of these left over from my DAC60 mod project.  Thought of using them - very highly rated the ones I have are .1uf:
  
*VISHAY-RODERSTEIN*​ *MKP-1837*​


> Tony Gee of  www:HumbleHomemadehifi.com says:  ​​  ​​ *Technical Specifications:​*Metalized polypropylene, radial capacitor, designed for LC/RC filter circuits, coupling and de-coupling at high frequencies. ​​  ​​ Sound: I was tipped by Klaus Witte of Germany to try this capacitor as a bypass cap for the Mundorf M-CAP SUPREME. I tried them as a bypass for the tweeter series caps in my Progress speaker and I must say I am very impressed! To get straight to the point they don't change a Supreme into a Supreme Silver-Oil but they really do clear things up. I must admit I was skeptical at first as the value is only 10nF (0,01uF) - and the caps in the Progress are 12,6uF. The difference is most noticeable with classical music but also good quality recordings of jazz and fusion benefit: No change in sound stage width or depth but there is more "concert hall acoustics" that let you get into the recording more. Not as liquid as silver/oil but they take away the "grainy" edge from the Supreme's. A gain in clarity and transparency making instruments better separable from each other, the violins in an orchestra are a group of individual violins instead of one mass. Jazz drum brushes sound more like a brush than a "shush".​​  ​​ Verdict: Can’t live without them! – Use them as bypass cap with any capacitor, they cost practically nothing!"​


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> I have a small supply of these left over from my DAC60 mod project.  Thought of using them - very highly rated the ones I have are .1uf:
> 
> *VISHAY-RODERSTEIN*​ *MKP-1837*​


 
  
 Yes they are very good, you can use them!


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Yes they are very good, you can use them!


 

 Great - they have nice easy to solder leads.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> 
> Today i started modding the clocks in the U12.
> ...


 

 I thought I would repost this for anyone interested in how Alex mounted these NDK SD clocks for his U12 mod.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> I thought I would repost this fro anyone interested in how Alex mounted these NDK SD clocks for his U12 mod.


 
  
 Hahahahaha, thank you Bob, that was a hell of a job, yes, indeed you are right, this definitely looked like brain surgery!
  
 This was before I got the adapterboards, and to be honest I DID FRY one NDK hahahaha 
  
 Btw, looking at the wires, they don't look that thin, but those are 2 single twisted strands from a normal (flexible) powercord,
 one strand was almost as thin as a hair, that way they kept flexible and didn't break from the NDK's pads.
  
 Btw, the pictures at the top were from an upsumpling module from an older CS4398 dac I used to test with,, this had a much smaller crystal, no DIP14
  
 Thanks for re-posting this, gives me a lot of good memories 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and also some bad ones, hahahahahahaha 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Regards,
  
  
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Hahahahaha, thank you Bob, that was a hell of a job, yes, indeed you are right, this definitely looked like brain surgery!
> 
> This was before I got the adapterboards, and to be honest I DID FRY one NDK hahahaha
> 
> ...


 

 More of Alex's best hits!  Here he replaces the tiny resistors on the U12 - with no space to workl next to the hardwired OEM transformer.


----------



## rb2013

FYI on the DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a -
  
 The new version:

  
 The old version:

  
 Note the new version uses better poly caps - has a power switch for USB or Ext power.  Looks like they eliminated the USB transformer, and improved the ext power jack.


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> FYI on the DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a -
> 
> The new version:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Seems a nice little unit


----------



## hongant

What is the newest xmos driver and  can any1 share the download link?


----------



## rb2013

hongant said:


> What is the newest xmos driver and  can any1 share the download link?


 

 Which DDC?  Some require a handshake ID
  
 Here is the link to the DXIO - that is 2.23:
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/9-driverdatasheetmanual


----------



## hongant

rb2013 said:


> Which DDC?  Some require a handshake ID
> 
> Here is the link to the DXIO - that is 2.23:
> http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/9-driverdatasheetmanual


 
  
 Isn't the 2.23 an old driver?


----------



## rb2013

hongant said:


> Isn't the 2.23 an old driver?


 

 Yes - but it's the one I have link too.
  
 You can try the XMOS webite.


----------



## hongant

rb2013 said:


> Yes - but it's the one I have link too.
> 
> You can try the XMOS webite.


 
 Ok thanks


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


>


 
 Alex - where did you buy those adapters with the small spaced pads?


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Alex - where did you buy those adapters with the small spaced pads?


 
  
 I got those from my friend hgpsemaj


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> FYI on the DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a -
> 
> ...
> 
> Note the new version uses better poly caps - has a power switch for USB or Ext power.  Looks like they eliminated the USB transformer, and improved the ext power jack.


 
 So does that mean you don't have to unplug the power leg anymore? Is yours the old version?


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> Alex - where did you buy those adapters with the small spaced pads?


 
  
 I have some of these and its indeed small. so small that I will probably screw up soldering this.
  
 at the end I just run some wires over it, not sure if vibration is causing some problems.


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> I updated the post to low temp soldering paste from just flux.
> 
> Well I suppose you apply to the adapter pads  - place the clock on top then heat.  The low temp solder then melts to make the connection.  Maybe some tape to secure the clock to the adapter.  That's for the CCHD-957s - which have contacts that lineup well with the adapter pads.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I wonder if any one can repair repair this board. my MX-U8 is not recognizable by the windows. i think it must haveen dead by static or over voltage.


----------



## rb2013

somestranger26 said:


> So does that mean you don't have to unplug the power leg anymore? Is yours the old version?


 

 I have then new one.  Not sure how the old one works with ext power.  On mine it still needs USB power to handshake - even set to ext power.  Once the music is playing - the USB power leg can be unplugged.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> I have some of these and its indeed small. so small that I will probably screw up soldering this.
> 
> at the end I just run some wires over it, not sure if vibration is causing some problems.


 
 I think I will try Alex's first approach with the small wires.  May need one of these!
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/usb-microscope-1080p-for-smt-soldering/48-1080p-smt-microscope.html

  
  


ccschua said:


> I wonder if any one can repair repair this board. my MX-U8 is not recognizable by the windows. i think it must haveen dead by static or over voltage.


 
 Over voltage can fry the Xmos chip  - does it light up (front leds)?


----------



## ccschua

it does light up. 
  
 I wonder if the DXIO is any match up for the Berkeley or Tamly audio ?


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> it does light up.
> 
> I wonder if the DXIO is any match up for the Berkeley or Tamly audio ?


 

 Well that is asking for a lot - I'm sure the Tamly.  The Berkeley I doubt.  I haven't owned either.  I can say it betters the Hydra Z LPs powered by a good margin.  At least in my systems.


----------



## stuartmc

rb2013 said:


> Well that is asking for a lot - I'm sure the Tamly.  The Berkeley I doubt.  I haven't owned either.  I can say it betters the Hydra Z LPs powered by a good margin.  At least in my systems.




As an owner of the Tanly, I'm curious as to why you are sure?


----------



## hgpsemaj

Superseded.


----------



## ccschua

stuartmc said:


> As an owner of the Tanly, I'm curious as to why you are sure?


 
  
 which Tanly version is yrs ? the latest one has USB in and digital out on the same plane.


----------



## rb2013

stuartmc said:


> As an owner of the Tanly, I'm curious as to why you are sure?


 

 Well the Tanly has a similar design as the Hydra Z - same Crystek CCHD-957 clocks, similar FPGA filter, etc.  The advantage the Hydra Z has it uses a completely separate power supply - in my case a Teradak linear power supply 5VDC.  Something about having the power supply well away from the digital chips is appealing.
  
 The Breeze (even before the upgraded Cerious Graphenen pc) easy beat the Hydra Z and the DXIO/LPS so far is ahead of an unmodded Breeze.  So just a calculated guess that the DXIO fed by a good linear power supply would be better then the $600 Tanly.  Of course the Tanly has i2s.  It's an estimate I would be a fair amount of confidence in - but it is just an estimate.


----------



## rb2013

Did the cap upgrade mod on my smaller TeraDak X1/X2 - and the improvement was very noticeable.  I use this one to feed the Regen in my office system.  Well worth the $10 in caps and an hour of soldering time.
  
 Stock:

  
 With the excellent Panasonic FR caps (rated to 10,000 hrs, low impedence, very high ripple rejection)
  

  
  
 My second TeraDak DC-30W arrived.  Dissppointed that the upgraded Pannie FC caps were not there - inferior SU series on the 25V 3300uf and more of those generic gray Chinese buggers for the 25V 1500uf.  Ordered replacement Pannie FRs yesterday - don't put away the soldering iron.


----------



## bimmer100

Well... I've had the DIU8 since monday and have been listening to it the first time the last two nights. So far i'm pleased with the results. I've been trying the Audio Sensibility SE Silver digital RCA cable and my HDMI i2s DHlabs Silver 2.0 ( http://www.silversonic.com/docs/products/HDMI.html ) It's being powered by my PSAudio P300 AC regenerator and plugged into Synergistic Research Teslaplex outlet in the P300 and using a SR Tesla T1 power cable for the DIU8 (the DIU8 is not so sensitive with power cables...maybe due to the design...5 separate non feedback design power supplies and R-Core Transformer) It's pretty darn nice...minus the less than desirable tcxo's used. 
  

  
 either 575 or 975's... the 975 will be tricky to mount due to clearances. But worth the effort. 
  
 I still prefer the HDMI i2s as it sounds better in details and soundstage. But the Audio Sensibility is a great digital cable for sure, much better than others i've tried.
  
 I am planning to upgrade the clocks in the DIU8 in the near future. The 957's are surely a great upgrade or ideal in most any DDC imho. The stock crystals are cheap in the DIU8 but seriously a bit impressed that the DIU8 sounds as good as it does with cheap crystals. The power supply design is quite good. 
  
 So far my only grip with the DIU8 is is very very finicky installation of XMOS drivers. Seriously should be easier, but I took me a long time to get this thing to properly install. The audio-gd drivers on the website are unsigned and need to login into windows 8.1 with driver signing turned off. The device should be powered off until the drivers have installed to the point of asking you to turn on the device. at that point the installation can finish. Yet still had a glitch and had to go to device manager and manually choose the proper driver. NOT a huge deal, but kinda of frustrated with it.
  
 I will have the DIU8 and Audio-Gd M11 tested for Jitter soon. I have lots of cool graphs showing my modded U12, a stock U12, and onboard USB from a Schiit Gungnir or Gumby. Too bad I wasn't able to test the HDMI i2s. I want to do these tests again with my Master 11. The Audio-GD implementation of the amanero Combo384  claims to have 2ps of jitter or less! the tests are complete. Jitter is NOT that important once the levels are so low like all these images are showing. Yet not surprising that Optical is showing a little more jitter than Coax, and likely HDMI i2s would be the least of all if I was able to test. After a bit of critical listening  between my wife and AtomicBob, we all agreed that the modded U12 was clearly bringing out more detail all around and the soundstage was also better. It wasn't difficult to hear the difference between the two. As you all likely know, Jitter won't really be an indicator to which sounds best.  My Modded U12 definitely sounds a lot better when using the HDMI output. I didn't care for the Gumby either...just my opinion and preference. I feel its more analytical and much less musical. Digititus somewhat? My M11, at least to me, its MUCH MUCH more musical.  I'm excited to spend a bit more time testing some more ddc's. I would like to test the Breeze, but the amount of money spent recently doesn't allow for much more. I would love to borrow one (poke: RB2013) as I could let you borrow one of my DDC's in return. But it's up to you  I'm borderline OCD about my stuff and think you'd likely be the same. My stuff is pampered.
  
 I've spent a bit much over the Holidays, as I have a pair of EditionX's now (loving these babies) yet upset they don't come with a balanced cable!!! i'm using the HE1000 balanced cable with them currently until my Norne Audio cables arrive. Also the DIU8, several new cables like the AudioSensibility SE Silver digital, Anticables 3.1 usb, LHLabs 2G Lightspeed, couple Norne Audio cables(draug2, plethora of other connectors and adapters), And of course the fancy LPS's (teddy pardo 5v which i'm using with my PPA3 OCXO usb 3.0 card now, and still waiting for my SR3 from Paul Hynes... it's being custom built for my needs yet am getting such a darn great deal that I'm kinda being put as a lower priority to build it quickly. about a two month build time...typical is 1month. Also grabbed a couple more Eifidility Fan filter's for my PC (5 of them now) and lastly all the cool mods done to my U12. The U12 may or may not be up for sale in the future. Oh, almost forgot, I've been talking a bit with LHLabs and converted my credits for the Geekwave XDF256 and now will have a fully loaded GeekSource SSD 1tb, triple femto, power cap upgrades etc etc. Should be more useful than a fancy portable i'll never appreciate.
  
 p.s. the Anticables 3.1 USB is being returned, wasn't a good match for my system.  The LHlabs 2G is staying for now. Soundstage is nice albeit taking up two plugs is annoying... 
 .


----------



## ccschua

A quick and fast way to proof concept i to have the crystek run on silver cables of about 15mm raised.
  
 i wonder if its ready to compare to breeze or DXIO.


----------



## bimmer100

Care to share some photos? I'm not sure how Sturdy some silver wires would be for the 957's. I was thinking of some dip sockets and have them soldered to raise up from pins. But I will have it done somehow


----------



## abartels

rb2013 said:


> Well the Tanly has a similar design as the Hydra Z - same Crystek CCHD-957 clocks, similar FPGA filter, etc.  The advantage the Hydra Z has it uses a completely separate power supply - in my case a Teradak linear power supply 5VDC.  Something about having the power supply well away from the digital chips is appealing.
> 
> The Breeze (even before the upgraded Cerious Graphenen pc) easy beat the Hydra Z and the DXIO/LPS so far is ahead of an unmodded Breeze.  So just a calculated guess that the DXIO fed by a good linear power supply would be better then the $600 Tanly.  Of course the Tanly has i2s.  It's an estimate I would be a fair amount of confidence in - but it is just an estimate.


 
  
 Not to be picky, but please keep in mind Bob compared SPDIF / AES ONLY, NO I2S comparison!!!!!!!!
 There could be a huge difference in I2S SQ.
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Not to be picky, but please keep in mind Bob compared SPDIF / AES ONLY, NO I2S comparison!!!!!!!!
> There could be a huge difference in I2S SQ.
> 
> Regards,
> ...


 

 Huge difference????  Don't think so


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> Well... I've had the DIU8 since monday and have been listening to it the first time the last two nights. So far i'm pleased with the results. I've been trying the Audio Sensibility SE Silver digital RCA cable and my HDMI i2s DHlabs Silver 2.0 ( http://www.silversonic.com/docs/products/HDMI.html ) It's being powered by my PSAudio P300 AC regenerator and plugged into Synergistic Research Teslaplex outlet in the P300 and using a SR Tesla T1 power cable for the DIU8 (the DIU8 is not so sensitive with power cables...maybe due to the design...5 separate non feedback design power supplies and R-Core Transformer) It's pretty darn nice...minus the less than desirable tcxo's used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Nice write up!  Yes I'm game for a swap.  I have a PUC2 coming as well.   Too bad on the DIU8 clocks.  How about a Breeze for a try at the DIU8.
  
 I think jitter is just one measure of digital distortion - there are others that effect SQ.
  
 It seems the Audio-gd DACs get better results on i2s vs spdif coax.  But that may not be true for all high end DACs.  Could just be the design of the digital receiver and clocks on the Master DAC.


----------



## rb2013

Now I make these statements about i2s vs SPDIF coax from experience.  Recently I had the opportunity to a face to face comparison of a Emperical Offramp5 (with the Dynamo power supply upgrade) using the excellent PS Audio i2s cable vs the Breeze with unfortunately just a Bluejean SPDIF cable and SR power cord.
  
 This was done over many hours on a $40K system running a $6K PS Audio Directwave DAC.  We a group of folks and I did the switching double blind - so no but me knew which was feeding the Directwave - and we could switch on the fly from OR5 i2s and Breeze SDPIF coax.
  
 On one track the Breeze was favored on a few a tie on a few the i2s OR5 won.
  
 If i2s was so vastly superior on the DirectWave the $150 Breeze/SPDIF would have been crushed by the $1500 OR5/i2s.   With a better SPDIF cable like the AS Silver Statement and the Cerious Graphene power cord  -  I feel the Breeze SPDIF would have beaten the i2s OR5.
  
 A lot has to do with the quality of the SPDIF RCA input design.


----------



## mz2014

It promises to be very promising.
 http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/mutec-ships-new-mc-3-smart-clock-usb/


----------



## robertsong

rb2013 said:


> A lot has to do with the quality of the SPDIF RCA input design.


 
  
 Upgraded the Breeze DU-U8's spdif jack with a Eichmann phono pod and Mundorf solid silver wire. No question an all around improvement. Very pleased.
  
 Now to upgrade the power wires and 6 electrolytics. Any suggestions here?
  
 Oh yeah, I have a Graphene Extreme PC coming my way as well.


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> Now I make these statements about i2s vs SPDIF coax from experience.  Recently I had the opportunity to a face to face comparison of a Emperical Offramp5 (with the Dynamo power supply upgrade) using the excellent PS Audio i2s cable vs the Breeze with unfortunately just a Bluejean SPDIF cable and SR power cord.
> 
> This was done over many hours on a $40K system running a $6K PS Audio Directwave DAC.  We a group of folks and I did the switching double blind - so no but me knew which was feeding the Directwave - and we could switch on the fly from OR5 i2s and Breeze SDPIF coax.
> 
> ...


 
 I tend to agree with the statement too as I felt that the outbox usb tends to have better isolation between digital and analog.


----------



## FredA

ccschua said:


> I tend to agree with the statement too as I felt that the outbox usb tends to have better isolation between digital and analog.




I tend to agree as well. In the case of the master-7, i2s is only slightly superior. I would have to try it wtith the breeze but i don't own an rca-terminated cable. This is true using the di2014 compared with the bnc output though a 0.5m dhlabs cable.

The point with i2s is that with some dacs like the master-7, it can make the usb interface the master cllock of the dac. Thus, if the i2s signal is not polluted, it has the potential to lower jitter beyond any spdif receiver's capacity or at least those on the m7. But to acheive best results, in my opinion, you need galvanic isolation. I will know about the validity of this solution in about one week or so when i receive the ethernet isolator i have ordered. The drawback is I will have to had two rj45 connections in the signal path and 6 more inches of wire. I have ordered a 6-inch cat6a shielded wire for that purpose.

But spdif can certainly sound very well with most dacs, including the master-7. But you need an excellent cable. There are very obvious differences between digital cables. The best of them are claimed to reduce jitter. That is a claim acoustic zen makes. I just love the sound of their silverbyte cable. That is one thing i would be very interested to try in my system. I will ask my friend to bring his along next time he comes to my place, it should sound awesome, perhaps even better than i2s, who knows.

I suspect that it not simply a matter of jitter. Jitter figures are so low with those xmos interfaces. Maybe, sound quality is also affected by harmonic distorsion of high-frequency noise filtering through the digital connection. Good measurements are not a garantee of good sound as you already know.

With all that testing done by posters of this thread, i am confident we will be able to extract the most of computer audio within the next months. In any case, i am very statisfied with my system since i have acquired the Breeze. I am just trying to improve on excellence. 

And not to be forgotten: all devices helping to to isolate the dac from the noisy computers we use are also significant. :regular_smile :


----------



## Nu3nO

mz2014 said:


> It promises to be very promising.
> http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/mutec-ships-new-mc-3-smart-clock-usb/


 

 You might want to check here first http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/mutec-mc-3-a-17300/
  
 Cheers.


----------



## ccschua

before I operate on the breeze, I had ordered the DXIO and will decide if the surgery is still required.
  
 I plan to integrate the DXIO into the computer audio PC, giving 2 output option, USB and SPDIF.


----------



## panhead

rb2013 said:


> Yes will do - before doing the cap modding (this version may not need that with Pannie FM's already in place).
> 
> I have been running the smaller TeraDak X1/X2 on the DXIO (using the 5VDC USB plug on the X1 and the wonderful 2G split cable power leg plugged in there) - sounds very, very good.  I needed the DC-30W back in my office system to power the Remedy.  And no need to do the plug - unplug routine.  I'll put this in the LPS shootout as well.  It'll get the better caps mod too.
> 
> ...


 
 Many thanks,  purchased the 2G,  breaking in now and no regrets!!!!


----------



## coolrob

Hello guys!
 First of all sry for bad english, its not my native language..
  
 I would like to ask some advice. 
 I got a Cambridge 651R avr and Canton Vento 870.2 speakers. I think they can sounding well, but im obsessed to use my computer as source for music.
 For my last speaker and spotify using the integrated soundcard was ok for daily music, but i want something better.
 And i want to listend some better stuff like flac or something. I think my integrated stuff is the weak point in my system. (realtek stuff from Gigabyte Z97-N gaming 5, using toslink)
  
 Now im thinking about a this Gustard U12. i would use it for my computer and would send the signal for my 651R through Gustard U12.Is it ok or should i buy some other dac, maybe just a soundcard like Essence STX. (Other stuff which i like is the IFI Nano iDSD)
 Is Gustard compatible with Win 10 or should i go back to Win7?
  
 Thanks


----------



## robertsong

Hi Coolrob.
  
 None of these units are OS dependent as far as I know. Windows 7, 8.1 and 10 will all work fine. You should go with a Breeze DU-U8 with Talema tranformer. Much better than the Gustard. Nobody really talks about the Gustard any more.
  
 I got mine here:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/262010528369?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 The Talema transformer is $20 additional.
  
 Hopefully this translates.


----------



## somestranger26

robertsong said:


> I got mine here:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/262010528369?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> The Talema transformer is $20 additional.


 
 You can get it directly from Breeze Audio on Aliexpress. I got the Talema transformer version for $128 shipped via DHL Express. http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Breeze-audio-Best-pure-USB-decoder-XMOS-U8-DU-U8-DAC-Asynchronous-USB-coax-fiber-XMOS/331129_32499738639.html


----------



## bimmer100

With all the mods done to my U12, it's bound to have a probllem at some point. That was last night when I was upgrading from Pulse to Murata power transformers.  I should of left well alone. I don't use Coax that often as it sounds inferior to HDMI i2s. Although I removed the pulse and in place had installed a DA101C. At first it was fine, but I wasn't happy with my soldering job as it wasn't neat... my picky ass decided to remove the component and replace it with a new. In the process I buggered the pcb...so no more coax for me. 
  
 at least my HDMI i2s works flawlessly.
  
 I'm going to do the last mod on this U12... have a Belleson Superpower voltage regulator, which is several steps up in performance above the infamous Class D Dexa Regulator!!!
 The specs of the Belleson are amazing,and others should seriously consider these! 
  
  
 "The Superpower regulator is a high performance voltage regulator with a novel circuit design (U.S. Patent 8,294,440) to internally power its reference circuit with its own regulated output. A floating reference allows any output voltage from 1.2V (SPLV) to 30V (SPM, SP and SPJ), 100V (SPHP), 400V (SPHV) with low noise, low output impedance, high current (10A with SPHP) and fast transient response in a compact circuit that fits a standard IC footprint (except SPHP/SPHV). Optimum load transient response is obtained with a 100μF or more capacitor connected to Vout. Superpower delivers current to a load with a clean dynamic waveform with minimum ringing or overshoot and settles quickly. Superpower works best without a pre-regulator, because a pre-regulator increases overall drop out requirements and may limit the dynamic current available to the load. With a footprint to match industry standard TO-220 monolithic regulators, Superpower can be easily retrofit into existing systems or designed into new systems for maximum performance."
  
 ➢ Wide Vout range from 1.2V to 400V
 ➢ Very low noise
 ➢ Exceptionally fast transient response
 ➢ Output currents of 225mA, 500mA, 2A, 10A
 ➢ Very low output impedance
 ➢ Self powered bootstrapped reference
 ➢ Low drop-out voltage
 ➢ Available as positive or negative output ➢ LM78xx, LM79xx and LM317 pin out ➢ No pre-regulator needed 
  

  

  

  
 more info - tons of details to show it's ultra low noise and ripple rejection is stellar. The original belleson superpower wasn't too great, but this is their new much improved MK2 model that should hold up to it's claims. I will at least give it a shot and test it out.
  
 http://belleson.com/download/Superpower_datasheet.pdf
  
  
SPJ78 is the model i ordered.


----------



## rb2013

mz2014 said:


> It promises to be very promising.
> http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/mutec-ships-new-mc-3-smart-clock-usb/


 

 I don;t see a USB input  - so it's just a reclocker - $800.  Can accept an Rubidium atomic clock input 1-10Mhz, then output audio clock frequencies - neat.


----------



## auvgeek

bimmer100 said:


> I didn't care for the Gumby either...just my opinion and preference. I feel its more analytical and much less musical. Digititus somewhat? My M11, at least to me, its MUCH MUCH more musical.  I'm excited to spend a bit more time testing some more ddc's.


 
 I've been out of the game a bit lately, but I haven't been able to find a decent review of Schiit's onboard USB (Gen 2 or Gen 3) vs a nice external DDC (Breeze, DIXO, modded U12/MX-U8, etc). Can you (or anyone else) offer some comparisons?


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Upgraded the Breeze DU-U8's spdif jack with a Eichmann phono pod and Mundorf solid silver wire. No question an all around improvement. Very pleased.
> 
> Now to upgrade the power wires and 6 electrolytics. Any suggestions here?
> 
> Oh yeah, I have a Graphene Extreme PC coming my way as well.


 

 Nice!  I ran out of the  Mundorf solid silver wire - so ordered some more with a set of these ( I have the Eichman as well).  Will swap in the WBT NexGen's on my DAC60 which has an Eichmann now and see if the WBT is an improvement.  Then install in the Breeze the better of the two.
  

  
  
 I'm going to try these very nice Pannie low impedence high ESR FRs - just ordered from Digikey.
  
 The Breeze websites call those Pannie green caps XPO Masters - they are really X-PRO Masters - and Ebay is the only place I could find them.  Would love to see the spec sheet.  If they really were Pannies top audio cap they should be readily available.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I tend to agree as well. In the case of the master-7, i2s is only slightly superior. I would have to try it wtith the breeze but i don't own an rca-terminated cable. This is true using the di2014 compared with the bnc output though a 0.5m dhlabs cable.
> 
> The point with i2s is that with some dacs like the master-7, it can make the usb interface the master cllock of the dac. Thus, if the i2s signal is not polluted, it has the potential to lower jitter beyond any spdif receiver's capacity or at least those on the m7. But to acheive best results, in my opinion, you need galvanic isolation. I will know about the validity of this solution in about one week or so when i receive the ethernet isolator i have ordered. The drawback is I will have to had two rj45 connections in the signal path and 6 more inches of wire. I have ordered a 6-inch cat6a shielded wire for that purpose.
> 
> ...


 

 Well said - that would be an interesting experiment.  The reason that the quality of the cable (and length 1.5m being optimal) and exact tolerance rca terminations are so important for great SPDIF coax performance is not necessarily the test measurement jitter of a clock - but the real world jitter and time domain cohesion of a system with less then perfect 75ohm impedance through out the chain.  Sub optimal impedance can create back-wave reflections that confuse the receiver chip.  This induces jitter.
  
 But other influences as John Swenson of Uptone points out like 'packet noise' from USB PHY processing (like the old DC servo noise from the PLL laser tracking circuit in CD players). This noise can pollute the digital systems power supply.  As Swenson points out regarding his measurements of USB processing induced 'packet noise' - it can even jump through isolators - even magnetic and optical ones.  The noise inter modulates with the data signal.   Very hard to isolate.  His solution with the Regen - besides the reclocking was exacting impedance matching.  Extreme care in the multi layer board design - direct coupling of the Regen to the USB DDC/DAC, etc...


----------



## riffer

rb2013 said:


> I don;t see a USB input  - so it's just a reclocker - $800.  Can accept an Rubidium atomic clock input 1-10Mhz, then output audio clock frequencies - neat.



 


That's the MC-3+, not the MC3+USB


----------



## rb2013

panhead said:


> Many thanks,  purchased the 2G,  breaking in now and no regrets!!!!


 
 Cheers! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


coolrob said:


> Hello guys!
> First of all sry for bad english, its not my native language..
> 
> I would like to ask some advice.
> ...


 
 I would definitely go with a Breeze and Talema - best bang for the buck!
  


robertsong said:


> Hi Coolrob.
> 
> None of these units are OS dependent as far as I know. Windows 7, 8.1 and 10 will all work fine. You should go with a Breeze DU-U8 with Talema tranformer. Much better than the Gustard. Nobody really talks about the Gustard any more.
> 
> ...


 
 What he said
  


somestranger26 said:


> You can get it directly from Breeze Audio on Aliexpress. I got the Talema transformer version for $128 shipped via DHL Express. http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Breeze-audio-Best-pure-USB-decoder-XMOS-U8-DU-U8-DAC-Asynchronous-USB-coax-fiber-XMOS/331129_32499738639.html


 
 Simply amazing deal - be sure they send the correct voltage version.  English can be a challenge in communication.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> With all the mods done to my U12, it's bound to have a probllem at some point. That was last night when I was upgrading from Pulse to Murata power transformers.  I should of left well alone. I don't use Coax that often as it sounds inferior to HDMI i2s. Although I removed the pulse and in place had installed a DA101C. At first it was fine, but I wasn't happy with my soldering job as it wasn't neat... my picky ass decided to remove the component and replace it with a new. In the process I buggered the pcb...so no more coax for me.
> 
> at least my HDMI i2s works flawlessly.
> 
> ...


 

 Man sorry to hear that - do you use a solder sucker?  Highly recommended. The Murata's are better, which I once doubted as Auralic used the Pulses in their sweet $3500 DAC the Vega (BTW another totl sota DAC with no i2s 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -but with two SPDIF coax inputs).  The Breeze and DXIO use the Murata's.
  

  
  
 I am interested in this Bellson reg upgrade - I know b0bb had recommended that a while ago.  If I remember they were not cheap - how much are the ones for the u12?
  
 Please post pictures of you mod - before and after.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Well said - that would be an interesting experiment.  The reason that the quality of the cable (and length 1.5m being optimal) and exact tolerance rca terminations are so important for great SPDIF coax performance is not necessarily the test measurement jitter of a clock - but the real world jitter and time domain cohesion of a system with less then perfect 75ohm impedance through out the chain.  Sub optimal impedance can create back-wave reflections that confuse the receiver chip.  This induces jitter.
> 
> But other influences as John Swenson of Uptone points out like 'packet noise' from USB PHY processing (like the old DC servo noise from the PLL laser tracking circuit in CD players). This noise can pollute the digital systems power supply.  As Swenson points out regarding his measurements of USB processing induced 'packet noise' - it can even jump through isolators - even magnetic and optical ones.  The noise inter modulates with the data signal.   Very hard to isolate.  His solution with the Regen - besides the reclocking was exacting impedance matching.  Extreme care in the multi layer board design - direct coupling of the Regen to the USB DDC/DAC, etc...





Yes. I agree and found the last paragraph very interesting.. Changing playback softawre or OS has an impact on sound as well. I would guess it has to do mostly with the noise that the ddc or computer generates, which depends on how busy the CPUs and usb ports are, and on how noisy the hardware is in general. As a matter of fact, adding ram or an ssd to a mac mini makes the sound more relaxed. The fan controller is a huge source of noise as well (pulsed tension).. A kit is offered for the mini to remedy to that. And at last, the smps is also an important source of noise can also be replaced by a linear supply. To sum it up, each element of the chain matters and is likely to make a different, especially with a transparent setup downstream.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Yes. I agree and found the last paragraph very interesting.. Changing playback softawre or OS has an impact on sound as well. I would guess it has to do mostly with the noise that the ddc or computer generates, which depends on how busy the CPUs and usb ports are, and on how noisy the hardware is in general. As a matter of fact, adding ram or an ssd to a mac mini makes the sound more relaxed. The fan controller is a huge source of noise as well (pulsed tension).. A kit is offered for the mini to remedy to that. And at last, the smps is also an important source of noise can also be replaced by a linear supply. To sum it up, each element of the chain matters and is likely to make a different, especially with a transparent setup downstream.




Yes, that's why my music servers are dedicated, and never connected to the internet. All programs are uninstalled but the audio players, all extraneous processes shut down. Very low noise high ripple rejection fanless power supply (those PC LPS's are expensive). Filters on cpu and case low noise fans, filters on all WD Sata Black hd's, etc...

But these USB bridges really make a monumental difference.


----------



## somestranger26

I got my Breeze in the correct voltage at last. I have it working with 3.29 drivers on W10; if anyone is interested in these send me a PM.


----------



## Triplefun

somestranger26 said:


> I got my Breeze in the correct voltage at last. I have it working with 3.29 drivers on W10; if anyone is interested in these send me a PM.


 
 What if any improvement to the music do you get in using an XMOS driver 2.26, 3.20 and 3.29?
 Is it just higher configuration options including latency and output or is there a noticeable improvement in the signal quality?


----------



## somestranger26

I have not used anything but 3.29.
  
 Edit: The one I have is driver-only. There's no suite.


----------



## rb2013

triplefun said:


> What if any improvement to the music do you get in using an XMOS driver 2.26, 3.20 and 3.29?
> Is it just higher configuration options including latency and output or is there a noticeable improvement in the signal quality?


 

 Some are full versions some only the driver.  The full suite has vol and bal control, as well as buffer settings.  Most of these XMOS DDC's (like the DXIO) require a device handshake - the Breeze does not - at least the ones I have.  That makes it very easy to set-up


----------



## ccschua

is there any more impression on DXIO ? My unit will be in tomorrow and hopefully can report some impression here.
  
 the Belleson PSRR looks impression and deserves a trial.


----------



## bimmer100

I ordered a Talema Breeze last night and will test it with the AudioSensibility SE Silver Digital RCA as you recommended RB2013.
 
Also waiting on parts for the Crystek 957 upgrades to the DIU8.
looks like i'll likely be ordered more crystals for the Breeze at some point. I also want to figure out how to install an HDMI i2s kit for the Breeze...if possible. :/
 
 
The belleson is going to go into the U12 once I get that... and maybe will buy another one as i'm bummed about the Murata Swap going all wrong. I've got a lead on one that has most of my mods done to it, except linear power and the regulator. I will likely sell my modded one with COAX issue for real cheap and likely with the linear mod option, and dexa regulator. 
 
<Shrug> gotta do a test of all these eventually. 



I also ordered a dxio pro3a and then cancelled the order as I decided I have too many projects right now and wanted to wait for more impressions of the pro3a. Plus their tech support wasn't too helpful in getting HDMI i2s hooked up to it. It appears it has an i2s header on the pcb yet no photos shows it clearly enough to see what pins. Also dxio tech support told me the can't guarantee if that header on the board even works?! So odd they can't even know their own design well emough to say whether that funtions. Let alone could t tell me if it was an input or output... Which I'm pretty sure it's an output. They threatened me by saying the warranty is void if I open one up. As if I care  but if anyome has opened theirs, can you check out that i2s marking on the pcb and figure it out? Also... Rb2013c are you about to let me check out the dxio pro3a sometime? I think I want to try it before dumping more money on the DDC fascination as of late. 
Also all these mods are getting expensive...
Side note... What are your opinions on the crystek 575's?!? Why? Because they are more of a direct swap on the diu8 than crystek 957's! They appear to be very close in performance, almost exactly the same really. According to LKS they believe the 575's sound better than the 957's and are now using them in their Amanero combo 384 special USB boards. (Which I might add as being one of the best USB interfaces!) they were using crystek 957 as stock crystals, but recently stated they are going to 575's as with their testing they found them to be slightly better. That being said, I will order maybe two pairs, extras for backups. 
I likely will still use 957's for the breeze. Going to do a bit more research on that this evening, seems it using the same frequencies as the diu8. I find it odd the u12 uses the doubled freq... Which perform better actually... Too bad that the breeze didn't use them too. Or the diu8.

In the end... Everyone is for sale except one DDC... So hopefully someone will want my ddc's. I will sell them in like new condition and some of them with desirable mods. 

But what will be fun is the extensive testing Atomicbob and I will do on the diu8, breeze, u12 and on board audio gd implementation of Amanero combo 384.

Some real numbers will shed some light on the truth in ddc's 

also will test the fun stuff like whether a cable swap makes a difference and in what regard. 

It's becoming an expensive experiment but I hope it will be worth the effort in the end. And for my sake I just hope to sell the extra gear too! That is my biggest concern. My wife will wonder why I need a stack of DDC's. Hahaha: she already asked me why I'm using two right now (diu8 and u12). It looks kinda cluttered. Meh. At least she enjoys the technical side of things, she was with us while we were doing jitter testing in the u12's and fortunately understand quite a bit of the technical side too. She ought to, as she works for Boeing while doing complex electrical. Maybe I will ask her to swap the crystals in the next DDC  haha


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I ordered a Talema Breeze last night and will test it with the AudioSensibility SE Silver Digital RCA as you recommended RB2013.
> 
> Also waiting on parts for the Crystek 957 upgrades to the DIU8.
> looks like i'll likely be ordered more crystals for the Breeze at some point. I also want to figure out how to install an HDMI i2s kit for the Breeze...if possible. :/
> ...


 
 Your wife knows what a DDC is and does?  Smart gal - mine is absolutely clueless - I hope it stays that way. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 
 She's just happy to not see a few dozen tubes laying around. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks for your efforts here - as we can help others save a lot of time and money by sorting through these.  It's actually tedious at times - but the payoff has been huge.  Much bigger then I ever expected.
  
 The 575's look good - no reason to not use them.  Their phase noise numbers are actually lower by a few db from 10hz to 10khz, and only slightly worse from 100khz to 1mhz.
 They are much cheap in price - almost half at digikey.  If they're easier to mount definitely.  Interesting that Berkeley and Tanly use the 957 - wonder why?  But you are right the higher clock freq clocks used in the Gustard do show slightly better phase noise numbers.  The big difference of course is going from the OEM JYEC TXCO clocks to any of these Crysteks.
  
 Certainly you can borrow the DXIO, but only after my PUC2 Lite loaner friend has a go.  In fact, I have been waiting to hear the mighty PUC2 Lite before buying a second DXIO.  Now fully broken in and sounding amazing.  In fact, the thought of taking the DXIO out of my main system is depressing...once you hear how addictingly good they are, it's hard to go backward.  I will keep my Breezes to experiment on with different clocks and caps.
  
 I have rolled the three different LPS's with the DXIO - the latest TeraDak DC-30W with the larger caps is the clear winner - although the smaller X1/X2 with the FR caps is very close.  The sound seems grander - more dynamic.   The Pannie FR caps are in for the two DC-30W - so now will upgrade those as well.


----------



## prot

triplefun said:


> What if any improvement to the music do you get in using an XMOS driver 2.26, 3.20 and 3.29?
> Is it just higher configuration options including latency and output or is there a noticeable improvement in the signal quality?




Is there an updated 3.x xmos driver for the U12 too ?

rb2013 got a puc2 too (full not lite). I think it's safe to say that in my setup it schits gustards  .. and i have a thouroughly updated u12 with muratas, ndk clocks, no usb power, etc.


----------



## FredA

Did some cheap usb cable comparison tonight: straightwire usb-link (i got it from Schiit audio for 20$) vs a-b systems mkII 6n (45$ from a website in hk that does not process my orders anymore).

To make the story short, the mkII washed the floor with the straightwire. I admit i did not burn the latter (brand-new). But the the difference is so big. The straightwire, although not bad, is so far behind that i doubt it stands any chance in the future. The second i reInstalled the mkII, the magic was back. I might give another chance to the straightwire after i brake it in my spartan office setup. The bass it so huge with the mkii. The stereo image is more accurate as well. The sound is fuller. Looking at the 2 cables, it is obviously not the same built quality, the mkII is way better. Beefier, separate legs for power and signal, better connectors, better jacket. I realize now it's a steal. I should have ordered more than one...

Did not imagine there could such a big difference between 2 usb cables. It makes more a difference than a power cord swap on the breeze to give you an idea.

Tomorrow, i will get the network isolator i have ordered 2 weeks ago and check if it improves the rj45 i2s connection between the breeze and the master-7. I will do a quick review within the following days.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Did some cheap usb cable comparison tonight: straightwire usb-link (i got it from Schiit audio for 20$) vs a-b systems mkII 6n (45$ from a website in hk that does not process my orders anymore).
> 
> To make the story short, the mkII washed the floor with the straightwire. I admit i did not burn the latter (brand-new). But the the difference is so big. The straightwire, although not bad, is so far behind that i doubt it stands any chance in the future. The second i reInstalled the mkII, the magic was back. I might give another chance to the straightwire after i brake it in my spartan office setup. The bass it so huge with the mkii. The stereo image is more accurate as well. The sound is fuller. Looking at the 2 cables, it is obviously not the same built quality, the mkII is way better. Beefier, separate legs for power and signal, better connectors, better jacket. I realize now it's a steal. I should have ordered more than one...
> 
> ...


 

 Been through a dozen of so USB cables - the LH Labs LightSpeed Split 2G is amazing.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Been through a dozen of so USB cables - the LH Labs LightSpeed Split 2G is amazing.




I don't doubt it. I have a problem payimg more than a 100$ for a usb cable though. But now, i know it can be worth it, sound-wise.

The mkii uses 6n wire by sommer cable of Germany. The cost of a cable is mostly labour and mark-up. As for the mkii, most of the cost is in the material. It is a direct sale of a cable made in China. So presumably, it is built like at least 4 times its cost.

This was my reason for ordering the straitwire, which is very well rated: just to get a hint as to how good the mkII was.


----------



## bimmer100

And so it begins. I have started Dissasembly of the diu8.
I had to show kingwa I was capable to remove the xmos board before I could order replacement boards. I want to have one board remain stock crystals, one to be 957's and another to be 575's. 
Sounds like a lot of work, but shouldn't be too bad. I need to practice a new technique os soldering with a heat gun. Anyone done this and have pointers? I have a pretty fancy soldering station now and should be able to tackle this project. 
The breeze will be next. I should have parts for everything hopefully in the next week. But replacement xmos boards I'm not sure... Waiting to hear back from kingwa still.


definitely one of the more time consuming removals of a usb module. about 15min to do this. the board was "floating" on ground wire posts...not typical brass posts. so I had to wick away solder for each corner to free the board. and remove a couple wires here and there.  

I hope the crystal swap goes well.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I don't doubt it. I have a problem payimg more than a 100$ for a usb cable though. But now, i know it can be worth it, sound-wise.
> 
> The mkii uses 6n wire by sommer cable of Germany. The cost of a cable is mostly labour and mark-up. As for the mkii, most of the cost is in the material. It is a direct sale of a cable made in China. So presumably, it is built like at least 4 times its cost.
> 
> This was my reason for ordering the straitwire, which is very well rated: just to get a hint as to how good the mkII was.


 
 For me the 2G has been worth every penny times 10.  But for those on a budget I would recommend the Forza Twin Copper split cable, then the Supra.  I've had USB cables costing over $500 - the 2G smokes them.  But I do have my limits, won't spend $1000 for a 10g.
  


bimmer100 said:


> And so it begins. I have started Dissasembly of the diu8.
> I had to show kingwa I was capable to remove the xmos board before I could order replacement boards. I want to have one board remain stock crystals, one to be 957's and another to be 575's.
> Sounds like a lot of work, but shouldn't be too bad. I need to practice a new technique os soldering with a heat gun. Anyone done this and have pointers? I have a pretty fancy soldering station now and should be able to tackle this project.
> The breeze will be next. I should have parts for everything hopefully in the next week. But replacement xmos boards I'm not sure... Waiting to hear back from kingwa still.


 
 That will be interesting on the clocks - can you switch them on the fly?
  
 I have not used a hot air soldering gun.  Which one did you get?


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> For me the 2G has been worth every penny times 10.  But for those on a budget I would recommend the Forza Twin Copper split cable, then the Supra.  I've had USB cables costing over $500 - the 2G smokes them.  But I do have my limits, won't spend $1000 for a 10g.
> 
> That will be interesting on the clocks - can you switch them on the fly?
> 
> I have not used a hot air soldering gun.  Which one did you get?




Not exactly how I have it planned... I mean... Not on the fly. Although.:.. I could do that if I get the right parts
I need to figure out how to mount a dip14 sockets on this tiny board. It's like putting a square in a round hole. It's just not supposed to happen. 
But it's possible I suppose. Likely wouldn't be ideal as the longer the connections to the crystal the more likely it would interfere with its performance. Just my thinking anyhow: 
But to remove this xmos board, it's a bit of a chore that requires patience.

I ordered a Talema breeze du-u8 too... And likely will reorder that pro3a from the sounds of it you may like it more? But I really just want to hear it first. 

Do you know anyone hat has swapped the crystals in a breeze? And has photos to show the underside of the pcb or how easy of access it is to remove the crystals and install dip14's? 
Just at a glance it looks easier than even the u12z should be a breeze right!?! Sorry... I had to.

The breeze will get 957's for sure. But the diu8 I may try 575's at the very least. I'm torn to if I can get a 957 to fit.
I think the 575 should be 99.5% the same. So I'm not too worried. Actually... LKS confirms the 575 sounds better than the 957's in their USB Amanero implementation. So that makes me feel better.

Funny thing is, I'm likely going to sell all but one DDC in end. Maybe someone will get one of my Frankenstein builds. Actually, all my ddc's will likely be sold once I get the Lhlabs geek source with triple femto and all the other power upgrades. It is also xmos but will be insanely high spec! That being said, I doubt any of these ddc's will have a chance. This doesn't stop me from being curious and tinkering/DIY. And others can learn from my experiences too. 
I'm talking with Dacladder about repairing my u12's coax. I want it to work if I decide to sell it.or find someone who doesn't need coax and only needs i2s HDMI. Will sell for a cheap price!


----------



## Jerryfan

bimmer100 said:


> Do you know anyone hat has swapped the crystals in a breeze?




I'm also interested in this question.


----------



## murphythecat

hi everyone, I dont have the time to read the whole thread.
 What is the better unit, Musiland 03 or the Gustard U12 or the Ifi audio Ilink?
 I use a musiland 01 usd and want to upgrade!


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> Not exactly how I have it planned... I mean... Not on the fly. Although.:.. I could do that if I get the right parts
> I need to figure out how to mount a dip14 sockets on this tiny board. It's like putting a square in a round hole. It's just not supposed to happen.
> But it's possible I suppose. Likely wouldn't be ideal as the longer the connections to the crystal the more likely it would interfere with its performance. Just my thinking anyhow:
> But to remove this xmos board, it's a bit of a chore that requires patience.
> ...


 

 Great news on the LH labs DDC - will be interested to see how that stacks up.  By triple femto you mean OXCO clocking?  That's the only way I could see their clocking to be better then say the femto TXCO ultra low phase noise NDK SD's or Crystek 957, 557's.
  
 On the top of my 'would love to hear' list the $1800 Berkely Alpha USB - only SPDIF outputs but that works for me.  Amazing attention to design - won the CA USB DDC shootout.  Anyone have one for a quick loan?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  




  
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/
  
 On the clock mounting issue - why not just go with DIP14 sockets - then you can just swap clocks easily, once the clocks are on a DIP adapter (not so easy).
 Here are the ones I have mounted in a MX-U8:


----------



## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> hi everyone, I dont have the time to read the whole thread.
> What is the better unit, Musiland 03 or the Gustard U12 or the Ifi audio Ilink?
> I use a musiland 01 usd and want to upgrade!


 

 I had the Musiland USB 03 and the Gustard U12 is better.  But better still is the Breeze Audio DU-U8 and the DXIO Pro3a at least of the dozen DDC's I've had.  I had an iFi DAC2 which can be used as a USB bridge as well - the worst of the bunch.
  
 Good luck


----------



## robertsong

MurphTheCat:
  
 Once again... on the the Gustard U12. The Breeze unit is a big step up.
  
   





> http://www.ebay.com/itm/262010528369?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> OR
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 See posts #3264 and #3265. *Make sure to ask for the Talema transformer upgrade. *


----------



## murphythecat

so the breeze is now the unit to buy over Gustard?
  
 http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Breeze-audio-Best-pure-USB-decoder-XMOS-U8-DU-U8-DAC-Asynchronous-USB-coax-fiber-XMOS/331129_32499738639.html
 so I can ask this seller to add the *Talema transformer upgrade?*
*So I need to ask for this option?*
*version  3: Using ultra high precision 0.1PPM gold plated low phase noise oscillator . Imported TAEMA transformer *???


----------



## Rhamnetin

Heh, I feel cheated, having gotten the U12 very recently.  $100 for the v3, I'll definitely give it a try.


----------



## rb2013

Whoa!  Just re-read that CA USB shootout - looks like the BADA USB has been dethoned!
  
 A fully tricked out OR5 with $700 dual turbo clock upgrade and Hynes SPDIF upgrade ($3000 total) is ahead.
  
 and a new one Solution 590 USB converter - $3000:
 http://www.soulution-audio.com/en/serie5/590/
  
 No i2s only SPDIF:



> A powerful Digital Signal Processor manages communication with the computer. Received data is buffered in a large RAM memory.


 
 Anyone get a board photo - would love to see the clocks they are using
  
 And the current numero uno - DCS Puccini U-Clock Mk1 - $4990 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/dcs-puccini-u-clock-hi-fi-73/

  
 Oh and folks here will not like this - no 384K!  or 352K! or 192K! or 176k! - highest 96K.  LOL! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 And heresy of heresy's - no i2s outputs.  Just SPDIF - sacrilege!  blasphemy!  Don't these idiots at DCS know you have to have i2s for good sound!!!
 I mean DCS who are they???? (all sarc).


----------



## m usicguy

I bought a U12.    I dont plan on moding it.   Has anyone bought better power cords.  I know most might say it doesnt make a difference.   I do.  I made my dealer prove to me power cords do make a difference.    I went through 20 power cords slowy up stepping.  So U12 with a good power cord againist straight power cord?
 musicguy


----------



## prot

freda said:


> Did some cheap usb cable comparison tonight: straightwire usb-link (i got it from Schiit audio for 20$) vs a-b systems mkII 6n (45$ from a website in hk that does not process my orders anymore).
> 
> To make the story short, the mkII washed the floor with the straightwire. I admit i did not burn the latter (brand-new). But the the difference is so big. The straightwire, although not bad, is so far behind that i doubt it stands any chance in the future. The second i reInstalled the mkII, the magic was back. I might give another chance to the straightwire after i brake it in my spartan office setup. The bass it so huge with the mkii. The stereo image is more accurate as well. The sound is fuller. Looking at the 2 cables, it is obviously not the same built quality, the mkII is way better. Beefier, separate legs for power and signal, better connectors, better jacket. I realize now it's a steal. I should have ordered more than one...
> 
> ...




I also tested about 10 usb cables. From the usual printer cable to a pure silver one. Never heard a single difference. 
Currently using a Viablue cable .. mainly because it's very well built and it looks nice 
Go figure.


----------



## rb2013

m usicguy said:


> I bought a U12.    I dont plan on moding it.   Has anyone bought better power cords.  I know most might say it doesnt make a difference.   I do.  I made my dealer prove to me power cords do make a difference.    I went through 20 power cords slowy up stepping.  So U12 with a good power cord againist straight power cord?
> musicguy


 

 I tried a few on the Breeze and the Cerious Graphene Xtreme are stupendous.  Bettered the stock by miles, beat my next best - the Synergistic Research X2 Ref by a good measure.  They're not cheap - bought mine on a Black Friday Audiogon special for $250 - reg $500.  This is their newest design


----------



## rb2013

prot said:


> I also tested about 10 usb cables. From the usual printer cable to a pure silver one. Never heard a single difference.
> Currently using a Viablue cable .. mainly because it's very well built and it looks nice
> 
> 
> ...


 

 That statement speaks for itself.


----------



## murphythecat

oups


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> I tried a few on the Breeze and the Cerious Graphene Xtreme are stupendous.  Bettered the stock by miles, beat my next best - the Synergistic Research X2 Ref by a good measure.  They're not cheap - bought mine on a Black Friday Audiogon special for $250 - reg $500.  This is their newest design


 
 I wish the owner would of sold me one of the graphene Xtreme... he just wouldn't do it? if you can get me one for 250, PM me...i want one still. we live near each other...


----------



## FredA

Did some testing at noon with the usb isolator on the rj45 i2s connection. Does not work. Now that I think about it, it is probably because the low frequency contents of the i2s signal are too important ( a transfo cannot pass DC). I will probably sell the isolator. It can be used to isolate a streaming audio device from the network.


----------



## prot

rb2013 said:


> That statement speaks for itself. :rolleyes:




It surely does .. not sure what it's saying, though


----------



## abartels

prot said:


> It surely does .. not sure what it's saying, though


 
  
 Hope you still have that pure silver USB cable at hand, we maybe could try testing it when I visit your place with my pre and power amp and my little tiny DAC


----------



## wwmhf

murphythecat said:


> wait
> there's no SPDIF out on the breeze?
> I need spdif with my mosaic T dac. what would be the best under 200$ option?
> 
> ...


 
  
 By the descriptions, they should be the same. To me, the one on Ebay is more expensive because the person on Ebay has to make some money by selling it there (he has to pay ebay, and, maybe, ali). I feel that buying from Ebay is a little more secured because of its solid Money Back Guaranty. However, I ventured to buy a Breeze from Aliexpress, and it it turned out to be a positive experience.


----------



## wwmhf

somestranger26 said:


> I have not used anything but 3.29.
> 
> Edit: The one I have is driver-only. There's no suite.


 
  
 I did not know the existence of V3.29 driver for Xmos USB bridges. Where did you find it?


----------



## wwmhf

robertsong said:


> Upgraded the Breeze DU-U8's spdif jack with a Eichmann phono pod and Mundorf solid silver wire. No question an all around improvement. Very pleased.
> 
> Now to upgrade the power wires and 6 electrolytics. Any suggestions here?
> 
> Oh yeah, I have a Graphene Extreme PC coming my way as well.


 
  
 Is is easy to get the board out the box?


----------



## prot

abartels said:


> Hope you still have that pure silver USB cable at hand, we maybe could try testing it when I visit your place with my pre and power amp and my little tiny DAC :wink_face:




Still do, you may play with it as you wish


----------



## murphythecat

I'm still not sure on what to get, DXIO PRO3a or Breeze DU-U8...


----------



## onlythat

Please do not forget Monsieur PUC 2 Lite in your list at about 450.00. 
http://grizzlyaudio.blogspot.com/2015/08/yellowtec-puc2-lite-comparisons-made-to.html?m=1 

...and other various and sundry praises around the Interwebs and in our very own healthily-sized thread...

not perhaps a modders delight, but certainly a sonic one


----------



## FredA

murphythecat said:


> I'm still not sure on what to get, DXIO PRO3a or Breeze DU-U8...




The breeze's firmware works so well with my mac mini. It is a very stable device, very easy to live with. That is a point to consider. Plus of course how great it sounds.


----------



## Triplefun

alexsander said:


> DSD+Gustard U12+Gustard DAC-X12:
> 
> *DSD64 in DoP* playing without problem - all outputs is working;
> *DSD128 in DoP* playing but ONLY with very good interconnect i2S HDMI cable, other U12 output is not working!
> ...


 
  
 I bought the U12 to interface my X20 to test dsd256
 I have spent some time playing with JRiver and Foobar and have been unable to realise DSD256
  
 Please can you confirm this is only supported by JRiver.
 And could you please give some details on the JRiver configuration.
 Also what you mean by "installation in the mode driver*".*


----------



## bimmer100

I need to go to ddc's anonymous...
I just ordered the pro3a... Also their USB i2s module (DIY version)
Also breeze du-u8
Also the audio-gd diu8
Have a super modded out gustard u12
Which I got three diff ultra low noise 5v regulators in order... One I'm using... The new class d dexa, also ordered the acko Dac's newest 1uv model... And that other one I mentioned and forgot the name already. Starts with a. b. 
Meh...
I ordered 2 pairs of crystek 957's. Two pairs of crystek 575's, lots of dip socket boards and crystal adapters dip14, and some bypass caps for them. Hmm

What else... 
Oh, just got myself some hd800's today too. I don't even like them. But want them to compare to my hex. I plan to mod the crap out of the hd800's to get them to sound better. Stock... I hate em.
But the hex is awesome 

I have a lot of DDC projects ahead of me. And will do a shootout between them all


The breeze will get 957's.
The diu8 will get three diff xmos boards, one with stock Hosonic clocks, one with 575's and one with 957's if I can pull it off
The pro3a likely won't need anything because i truly think it's spec is impressive as is! And best bang for buck, but I haven't listened to them all yet! Just a hunch.


----------



## wwmhf

murphythecat said:


> I'm still not sure on what to get, DXIO PRO3a or Breeze DU-U8...


 
 It seems to me that the Breeze is a better bet.


----------



## murphythecat

bimmer100 said:


> I need to go to ddc's anonymous...
> I just ordered the pro3a... Also their USB i2s module (DIY version)
> Also breeze du-u8
> Also the audio-gd diu8
> ...


 
 will you be able to test the breeze stock vs pro3a stock.
 Im wary about the breeze unit. I bought a tpa3116 breeze amp and thought it sounded terrible.
 Would love to know breeze vs pro3a. RB2013, you didnt follow up for how good the pro3a is compared to the breeze. is the breeze is smoother and the pro3a maybe more accurate more detailed?


----------



## robertsong

wwmhf said:


> Is is easy to get the board out the box?


 
  
 Extremely easy. Could not be any easier.
  
 Getting it back in is a little tricky b/c you have to have the led's lined up perfectly.
  
 Takes some patience. You'll see what I mean.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I wish the owner would of sold me one of the graphene Xtreme... he just wouldn't do it? if you can get me one for 250, PM me...i want one still. we live near each other...


 

 I'm not to surprised I bought three for the $250 price.  Was on the fence for a fourth.  This cable rocks - the word has gotten out.  This is a new design - I hear 6moons is about to review the whole new line up.  I'm pretty sure they'll be as floored as I have been.
  
 Been think of giving their speaker cables a try - but just so happy with my Tellurium Q Ultra Blacks.  They beat out the Nordost Valhalla and SR Tesla Apex I used to have.  The TQ are a match made in heaven for the Maggies.
  
 I'll try and ask him.  The last one I had to beg and plead - even then it took 4 week to get him to make it.  I waited very, very, very patiently.


----------



## bimmer100

Maybe beg and plead for me, get me an extra and I will for sure compensate you! He agreed to selling me one at 250 then backed out after I mentioned I had a psaudio p300, but will use it without that ac regen for testing. I just want to try it. It will be my mobile cable for shows. I don't bring the ac regen to shows. But if you can, buy me one! Or I will send him 250via PayPal at the hat, or you, if you buy it for me. We should still get together and do a listening day


----------



## robertsong

>


 


prot said:


> I also tested about 10 usb cables. From the usual printer cable to a pure silver one. Never heard a single difference.
> Currently using a Viablue cable .. mainly because it's very well built and it looks nice
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yikes. You're sure you want to admit that here? My experience could not be any different from yours. I have tried about a dozen and EVERY single cable sounded different... even with cheap printer cables. A Lacie (blue) flat cable and the Belkin Gold sounded extremely different from each other. I sure wasn't expecting that! I'm currently using a (used) JCAT USB cable and very happy with it. Replaced a mellower sounding Revelation Dual-Conduit.
  
 My advice: Look for a great deal on a used high-end USB cable and never look back. If anybody has an argument with that, please take it elsewhere.


----------



## robertsong

wwmhf said:


> It seems to me that the Breeze is a better bet.


 
  
 Just to add some more feedback to the thread.... 
  
 I tried both about a month ago. I could not get the DXIO Pro 3A to work with 176.4khz and 192khz sample rates and I tried everything with my software programs. I also heard a slight crackling noise on the +5v power input. So I sent the unit back for a refund. Great company. It's a shame b/c I was leaning towards the DXIO in sound quality, and agree with everything rb2013 said about it.
  
 The Breeze and DXIO are two awesome sounding units with VERY different sonic signatures. Breeze is darker and much richer sounding to my ears. Also more "analog" sounding. DXIO has absolutely incredible transparency!
  
 It all depends what you're looking for. I loved them both.


----------



## Jon L

robertsong said:


> The Breeze and DXIO are two awesome sounding units with VERY different sonic signatures. Breeze is darker and much richer sounding to my ears. Also more "analog" sounding. DXIO has absolutely incredible transparency!


 
  
 I've always felt that USB-connected DAC's, when compared to their spdif input, tended to sound smoother, warmer, more "musical" but not as crisp, sparkly, and airy on top.  To avoid that USB tendency, DXIO (with linear PS) is a better bet than Breeze then?


----------



## wwmhf

robertsong said:


> Just to add some more feedback to the thread....
> 
> I tried both about a month ago. I could not get the DXIO Pro 3A to work with 176.4khz and 192khz sample rates and I tried everything with my software programs. I also heard a slight crackling noise on the +5v power input. So I sent the unit back for a refund. Great company. It's a shame b/c I was leaning towards the DXIO in sound quality, and agree with everything rb2013 said about it.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Using external power supply in DXIO Pro 3A is both good or bad. It is good because it makes the upgrade to a better power supply easily. On the other hand, that demands the user to look for a better power supply, costing both time and money. 
  
 By a quick look at the board of DXIO Pro 3A, it seems to me DXIO Pro 3A has less guts. This might be a reason for its transparency, if any.


----------



## murphythecat

I ordered the breeze I figured it was the best for the buck. I think it will sound amazing with the Ec designs Mosaic T.
  
 Now, usb cable. Is the Forza twin the best bang for the buck under 100$?


----------



## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> I ordered the breeze I figured it was the best for the buck. I think it will sound amazing with the Ec designs Mosaic T.
> 
> Now, usb cable. Is the Forza twin the best bang for the buck under 100$?


 

 That's a good call - with a decent LPS the DXIO is much more expensive.  In my rolling the Forza Twin Copper sounded pretty good - and the split design allow you to only run the data leg.


----------



## rb2013

wwmhf said:


> Using external power supply in DXIO Pro 3A is both good or bad. It is good because it makes the upgrade to a better power supply easily. On the other hand, that demands the user to look for a better power supply, costing both time and money.
> 
> By a quick look at the board of DXIO Pro 3A, it seems to me DXIO Pro 3A has less guts. This might be a reason for its transparency, if any.


 

 Well part of the 'guts' is no power supply - so no transformer and power supply reg and caps.  But also the very small size of the excellent NDK SD Ultra low noise TXCO femto clocks is one reason the board can be so small.  They're like 1/10th the size of an OEM JYEC TXCO.   Yet have orders of magnitude less phase noise.  Every -3db is a double and they have -25db to -35db less noise.
  
 And DIYinHK uses one for USB clocking - a very nice touch.
  
 So it's not the size that matters - but the components and design - and well in the end for me, the sound quality.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> Maybe beg and plead for me, get me an extra and I will for sure compensate you! He agreed to selling me one at 250 then backed out after I mentioned I had a psaudio p300, but will use it without that ac regen for testing. I just want to try it. It will be my mobile cable for shows. I don't bring the ac regen to shows. But if you can, buy me one! Or I will send him 250via PayPal at the hat, or you, if you buy it for me. We should still get together and do a listening day


 

 Sounds good!  When you get your clock mods done for sure


----------



## wwmhf

rb2013 said:


> Well part of the 'guts' is no power supply - so no transformer and power supply reg and caps.  But also the very small size of the excellent NDK SD Ultra low noise TXCO femto clocks is one reason the board can be so small.  They're like 1/10th the size of an OEM JYEC TXCO.   Yet have orders of magnitude less phase noise.  Every -3db is a double and they have -25db to -35db less noise.
> 
> And DIYinHK uses one for USB clocking - a very nice touch.
> 
> So it's not the size that matters - but the components and design - and well in the end for me, the sound quality.


 
  
 After reading your post, I took another look at the board of DXIO Pro 3A and found those TXCOs after some efforts. I originally thought DXIO Pro 3A did not even use any TXCO so "less guts"


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Yikes. You're sure you want to admit that here? My experience could not be any different from yours. I have tried about a dozen and EVERY single cable sounded different... even with cheap printer cables. A Lacie (blue) flat cable and the Belkin Gold sounded extremely different from each other. I sure wasn't expecting that! I'm currently using a (used) JCAT USB cable and very happy with it. Replaced a mellower sounding Revelation Dual-Conduit.
> 
> My advice: Look for a great deal on a used high-end USB cable and never look back. If anybody has an argument with that, please take it elsewhere.


 
 Cheers to that!
  


robertsong said:


> Just to add some more feedback to the thread....
> 
> I tried both about a month ago. I could not get the DXIO Pro 3A to work with 176.4khz and 192khz sample rates and I tried everything with my software programs. I also heard a slight crackling noise on the +5v power input. So I sent the unit back for a refund. Great company. It's a shame b/c I was leaning towards the DXIO in sound quality, and agree with everything rb2013 said about it.
> 
> ...


 
 Did you have the 'old' design Pro 3A or the new one.  They've made some changes.  I agree the Breeze has wonderful rich tone - and another half octave of bass then the Hydra Z (LPS) I had for months before.  But you should hear the Breeze with the Cerious Graphene Xtreme power cable - the detail greater and the tone even more sumptuous.  But a well fed (LPS) DXIO (new version) is just on another level still.  It was hard for me to accept this - especially since it has that damn USB power relay and needs a driver with it's handshake.  The only USB bridge I have had that does not work with Chodi's Luckit drivers.  Also note I could not get 192k and 176k to work with Jplay 6.2 - so just removed Jplay - then 192k and 176k worked fine.  This is really important for me as I use SoX upsampler on my Redbook files to run them at 192k in my main system.
  
 But I'm in awe of this thing  - the level of stage depth and the clarity of image - scarily holographic on the Maggies.  Well it's just in a whole new realm.  And the tonal richness is terrific.  The Breeze/Cerious is more forgiving of down stream equipment.  But on a really tuned in system - pretty spectacular - and worth all the hassles. 
 Complete audio addiction.  Like super Crack for the ears.
  
 Now I want to see if the Breeze with mods can be taken to an even higher level,  new caps, new SPDIF RCA, new clocks, etc...


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I need to go to ddc's anonymous...
> I just ordered the pro3a... Also their USB i2s module (DIY version)
> Also breeze du-u8
> Also the audio-gd diu8
> ...


 

 Mastercard says Thank You.


----------



## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> will you be able to test the breeze stock vs pro3a stock.
> Im wary about the breeze unit. I bought a tpa3116 breeze amp and thought it sounded terrible.
> Would love to know breeze vs pro3a. RB2013, you didnt follow up for how good the pro3a is compared to the breeze. is the breeze is smoother and the pro3a maybe more accurate more detailed?


 

 Yes the Breeze is smoother and a tad richer - but the DXIO with a great USB cable and linear power supply - just so much transparency and clarity.  Like veils have been....
  
 The PUC2 Lite is coming in on Friday (thanks friend!) - may not be able to test until Monday.  So we'll see.  Can the sound get any better???  I have to reason that it must hit a point of diminishing returns.  Not so far - it's been exponential.
  
 Fun with Jitterbugs - I received my third tonight.  So this is the deal - modded one by clipping the power legs so it becomes a VBUS +5VDC blocker as well - no PC USB power past it.  That is the one I have the data leg plugged into of the 2G.  The second does the same in my office system.  Then today I tried plugging a second unmodded JB into an empty USB port on the main system.  Unbelievable - you can hear the bass deepen further still - and the tone richen.  Live while the music is playing.  Unplugged the second JB - reverse.  Repeated 4-5 times - it's real and really nice!  This by plugging into a free USB port  - no cable attached.  Spooky stuff this PC audio thing.


----------



## onlythat

Seconded. Jitterbugs are awesome! And they are the two small reasons I ended up selling my Regen


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> .....    That was before_* the addition of the Cerious Graphene power cord - that has really made an improvement in the DU-U8 sound*_.  Greater detail and even smoother now - even at extreme vol levels on the very picky Maggies.  The Cerious is fully broken in and sounding just great ...


 
  
 Hi !  when i read about power cords making a difference i think that there must be some issues in the power supply stage, usually not enough filtering of mains noise.
 The power cord should be acting as a filter with its capacitance in the end.
 Are your mains noisy ?  have you tried mains filters ?  have you experienced better sound during night ?
 Thanks a lot for the very informative comments and advice.
 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## ccschua

Spent 15 min searching for drivers. its at the product page. bit of confusing to click the driver page order page.
  
 jplay seems to be lagging. need to retune the buffer.


----------



## ccschua

This unit surprise me. For a unit so small, it punches above its weight class. dont be fooled by the size.
  
 its quite revealing and neutral. the musical transparency is first class. what I am left to do is another power supply LT3042 my current LT3042 for the PPA OCXO clock runs out of gas to power this little chap.
  
 Further impression after swapping LT3042 to DXIO while OCXO is powered by the HDPLEX.
  
 now my MSB Analog sounds like another level up, very analog feel. this units beats the stock USB2 384. as I do not have USB QUAD rate, would love to hear if another can compare it.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I tried a few on the Breeze and the Cerious Graphene Xtreme are stupendous.  Bettered the stock by miles, beat my next best - the Synergistic Research X2 Ref by a good measure.  They're not cheap - bought mine on a Black Friday Audiogon special for $250 - reg $500.  This is their newest design




I have tried 3 cords with the breeze. And one of them makes it more transparent, gives it better soundstaging and deeper bass as well. And that very well made cable is the cheapest oh the 3, under 100$ on ebay. Works well with power amps and pre as well. I like not paying too much. It is not always a matter of spending more rather a matter of optimizing sinergy sometimes.


----------



## ginetto61

ccschua said:


> *This unit *surprise me. For a unit so small, it punches above its weight class. dont be fooled by the size....


 
  
 Hi ! sorry but are you talking about the Gustard U12 USB or the Breeze ?   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 I am getting confused because there are now comments on 2 o 3 different converters in this topic.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It would be nice to state at the beginning of the post which converter is reviewed.  For the sake of a good understanding. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thanks a lot for the very interesting comment.  I have a U12 as well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Kind regards,  gino


----------



## FredA

freda said:


> I have tried 3 cords with the breeze. And one of them makes it more transparent, gives it better soundstaging and deeper bass as well. And that very well made cable is the cheapest oh the 3, under 100$ on ebay. Works well with power amps and pre as well. I like not paying too much. It is not always a matter of spending more rather a matter of optimizing sinergy sometimes.




And one thing i found yesterday it that it is quite significant an improvement to plug the computer through some sort of digital filter so that it does not contaminate the rest of the chain. All my audio components are connected through a basic power bar with some paasive filtering not using any discrete component, so it does not affect dynamics. The computer is plugged to an APC h15 on the digital filter bank.


----------



## rb2013

onlythat said:


> Seconded. Jitterbugs are awesome! And they are the two small reasons I ended up selling my Regen


 
 I still use one Regen/LPs on my office system - but in the main system it actually made the sound worse.  Not the case with the Jitterbugs - they improved both systems. 
  


ginetto61 said:


> Hi !  when i read about power cords making a difference i think that there must be some issues in the power supply stage, usually not enough filtering of mains noise.
> The power cord should be acting as a filter with its capacitance in the end.
> Are your mains noisy ?  have you tried mains filters ?  have you experienced better sound during night ?
> Thanks a lot for the very informative comments and advice.
> Kind regards,  gino


 
 Hi Gino,  I guess you've not been keeping up with this forum.  As I have posted - I use a dedicated AC line filter on the DDC - and another on the DAC - and soon a third separate on the PC's.  The ones I use are the excellent and low cost Art Audio PB4X4 Pro - the 'Pro' version uses both common mode and differential mode ps filtering.  I rolled through a half dozen power cables - including a very nice Silver/Rhodium and SR X2 Active.  Trust me the Cerious Graphene Xtreme is in a whole other league.  Don't try and play 'Audio Engineer' to figure out why - there are too many variables at play - I could list at least 6.  But the most important is surface eddy effects from current/dielectric interaction.   The technology in these Cerious Graphene cables is cutting edge.  Never heard a cable sound so good cold right out of the box.
  


> Presenting the 4x4 PRO SERIES Power Distribution Systems from ART. Built on the foundation of the popular 4x4s, the PRO SERIES are durably constructed, reliable power conditioners for use in many applications. Wherever power management system is required, the 4x4 PRO SERIES provide the surge protection you need to keep your rack safe from unwanted disruption.
> All PRO SERIES models have an additional internal discrete module called APF™ (Advanced Power Filtering) *which filters out digital and dimmer hash as well as any high frequency noise that is above the audio range. Some off-the-shelf add-on modules saturate and lose their filtering effectiveness as the load increases, but by using a high power discrete design we were able to create a filter that stays effective over the full operating range.*
> *By using both Common Mode and Differential Mode topologies in series for the filter design we are able to block virtually all of the unwanted noise that is between the AC line and ground, and also the two sides of the AC line. This has the additional benefit of reducing ground loop problems in your system. High frequency noise currents in particular are highly attenuated in both directions so that any line noise that could be generated by one of your components is not allowed to get back into your main A.C. wiring so if you use a number of PRO SERIES Power Conditioners in your setup, you can distribute and isolate the noisy components from the sensitive components in your system. Additionally, any signals above 10kHz are filtered from the line with over 40dB of attenuation above 100kHz and beyond.*
> Every PRO SERIES power conditioner is designed with a power capacity of 1800 Watts, surge/spike protection, APF with EMI & RFI filtering, front-mounted unswitched power outlet and an adjustable rear-mounted gooseneck light source for bright illumination behind the rack. The spacing and alignment of the rear outlets to accommodate various size power plugs and AC adapters.


 
  


ccschua said:


> Spent 15 min searching for drivers. its at the product page. bit of confusing to click the driver page order page.
> 
> jplay seems to be lagging. need to retune the buffer.


 
 The DXIO and JPlay do not play well together.  I just run the ASIO - prefer it to KS.
  


ccschua said:


> This unit surprise me. For a unit so small, it punches above its weight class. dont be fooled by the size.
> 
> its quite revealing and neutral. the musical transparency is first class. what I am left to do is another power supply LT3042 my current LT3042 for the PPA OCXO clock runs out of gas to power this little chap.
> 
> ...


 
 Give it a hundred hours it will get better - much better.  As the clocks burn in.
  


freda said:


> I have tried 3 cords with the breeze. And one of them makes it more transparent, gives it better soundstaging and deeper bass as well. And that very well made cable is the cheapest oh the 3, under 100$ on ebay. Works well with power amps and pre as well. I like not paying too much. It is not always a matter of spending more rather a matter of optimizing sinergy sometimes.


 
 At this point I just chuck the stock cord - and go right for some generic silver rhodium plugs cable I have around - they were around $80 from a guy in England I bought on Audiogon.  They're called 'Silver High Breed'.   But the Cerious is at a whole other level - the best I have owned.  And I have had the crazy expensive Nordost Valhalla and Synergistic Research Tesla Apex.   For the money the Cerious are a steal.
  


freda said:


> And one thing i found yesterday it that it is quite significant an improvement to plug the computer through some sort of digital filter so that it does not contaminate the rest of the chain. All my audio components are connected through a basic power bar with some paasive filtering not using any discrete component, so it does not affect dynamics. The computer is plugged to an APC h15 on the digital filter bank.


 
 Will soon have separate PB4X4 Pro's for each PC.  Did replace the PC server PS with very low ripple fanless SMPS a while ago.


----------



## rb2013

OK Nerd hat on...
  
 Here is some of the technology in these amazing Cerious Graphene Xtreme cables


> For sale today is one 5 foot long Graphene Extreme power cable optimized for low current detail. Each GE jacket is filled with damping materials to eliminate vibrations. The RED power cables use finer ceramics to address smaller micro vibrations of lower current levels. Each RED PC uses a Gold Plated connector which works better at lower current levels (our listening test exposed this…). We offer a 100% money back guarantee and a liberal trade in policy if you are a previous Cerious Technologies client. You may be surprised how affordable it is to upgrade to the Graphene Extreme. So what do you get with the Graphene Extreme? More quiet and detail. Who doesn’t want that?
> Our goal of creating the most sonically transparent cables ever created has been brought to a new level. First let me say we continue to be very proud of the Nano Signature, as it was sonically outstanding. The Graphene Extreme takes the concepts of the Nano to whole other levels. While other "wire" companies utilize bigger gauge conductors as the line increases in price to justify the increased cost, Cerious Technologies works at the molecular level getting the conductor closer to an ideal conductor.
> Each Graphene Extreme conductor employs five elements –
> • Copper
> ...


 
  
 Cerious Technology on Hot - Neutral -Ground in the Graphene Xtreme Power Cables:


> Neutral. Hot Ground. Can we take a second to actually explain what these mean? Ground is simple - it runs to a stake in the ground and is there for safety.  Now Neutral is a little more tricky. While many tell you the Swiss invented Neutral we must understand that voltage is the potential difference between two points. Huh?
> 
> Say one terminal is at +20V and the other is at -50V.  The actual circuit  between these two terminals is at +30V.  Our Neutral always stays at zero (0) Volts.  Now our hot, on the other hand, has to swing like crazy from -120V to +120V 60 times a second.
> 
> ...


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> Hi Gino,  I guess you've not been keeping up with this forum.


 
  
 Hi !  i confess 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 i got a little lost with all this mixing converters and i pause the reading 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 I am not at all against mods and comparisons but it is difficult to follow a thread with discussions on 3 different converters with people jumping from one to another. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 It would be better to create a general thread about comparisons of different converters maybe ?
  


> As I have posted - I use a dedicated AC line filter on the DDC - and another on the DAC - and soon a third separate on the PC's.  The ones I use are the excellent and low cost Art Audio PB4X4 Pro - the 'Pro' version uses both common mode and differential mode ps filtering.   I rolled through a half dozen power cables - including a very nice Silver/Rhodium and SR X2 Active.  Trust me the Cerious Graphene Xtreme is in a whole other league.
> Don't try and play 'Audio Engineer' to figure out why - there are too many variables at play - I could list at least 6.   But the most important is surface eddy effects from current/dielectric interaction.
> The technology in these Cerious Graphene cables is cutting edge.  Never heard a cable sound so good cold right out of the box.


 
  
 Interesting cables indeed.  I believe completely about the impact of power cables on these cheap converters. I have to try something for sure. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thanks a lot,  gino


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I still use one Regen/LPs on my office system - but in the main system it actually made the sound worse.  Not the case with the Jitterbugs - they improved both systems.
> 
> Hi Gino,  I guess you've not been keeping up with this forum.  As I have posted - I use a dedicated AC line filter on the DDC - and another on the DAC - and soon a third separate on the PC's.  The ones I use are the excellent and low cost Art Audio PB4X4 Pro - the 'Pro' version uses both common mode and differential mode ps filtering.  I rolled through a half dozen power cables - including a very nice Silver/Rhodium and SR X2 Active.  Trust me the Cerious Graphene Xtreme is in a whole other league.  Don't try and play 'Audio Engineer' to figure out why - there are too many variables at play - I could list at least 6.  But the most important is surface eddy effects from current/dielectric interaction.   The technology in these Cerious Graphene cables is cutting edge.  Never heard a cable sound so good cold right out of the box.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Is the Cerious still available? Looked for it at some point but did not find any offer.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Hi !  i confess
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have been meaning to do a grand USB bridge shootout thread - compiling all this info.  But then a better one comes along and it resets the bar.  Now at Olympian levels.  I'm still trying to get my mind around how good the DXIO/TeraDAK DC30/Cerious GE/Lightspeed 2G is. 
  
 Last night put on The Who's - 'Who's Next'. Just a redbook file - from a 44 yr old recording (this was recorded in '71).  Have heard this album 100's of times at least.  Last night - it sounded different.  I mean Hi Res DxD great.  Townsend's guitar had nuanced tones and overdrives I never knew existed.  Kieth Moon's drumming had space and air, but still rock bottom depth like I never heard before.  I was floored.  Like hearing it for the first time.  Thinking about the presentation - there was something else.  The way the images where so life sized and just perfect in tone and pitch - and the sweep of the 12 ft sound stage in my room.  No holes - no empty spots - but not contrived.  Just perfect.  Natural, smooth and musical.  Flow out the yin-yang.  The listen session was an 'Event'.  Wow, what a payoff.  So now this is my new litmus test - can a USB upstream do better?  I'm having to doubt it - but I thought that before.
 The caps on the new TeraDak DC-30W (big cap 3300uf) have burnt-in, that and the added 2nd JB - it's really smooth and tonally lush.  But with the greatest detail I have heard yet.
  
 Will recap this TeraDak this weekend with the Pannie FR's.  Maybe it can get better?
  


freda said:


> Is the Cerious still available? Looked for it at some point but did not find any offer.


 
 Yes, contact them directly.  Just bought the 1.5M Graphene Extreme IC he has listed on Audiogon for $250 - reg $650.  See how that sounds vs the $800 Aural Thrills Tube BCS sliver I have now in the main system.
 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/interconnects-cerious-technologies-graphene-extreme-1-5m-rca-interconnect-2016-01-15-cables-85382-peoria-az
  
 Here is their website:
 http://www.cerioustechnologies.com/cables/lcHome.html


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> I have been meaning to do a grand USB bridge shootout thread - compiling all this info.  But then a better one comes along and it resets the bar.  Now at Olympian levels.
> I'm still trying to get my mind around how good the DXIO/TeraDAK DC30/Cerious GE/Lightspeed 2G is.


 
  Thanks a lot again.   I guess the converter in question is this one  here below
  

  
 Quote:


> Last night put on The Who's - 'Who's Next'. Just a redbook file - from a 44 yr old recording (this was recorded in '71).  Have heard this album 100's of times at least.
> *Last night - it sounded different.  I mean Hi Res DxD great.  *
> Townsend's guitar had nuanced tones and overdrives I never knew existed.  Kieth Moon's drumming had space and air, but still rock bottom depth like I never heard before.  I was floored.  Like hearing it for the first time.  Thinking about the presentation - there was something else.  The way the images where so life sized and just perfect in tone and pitch - and the sweep of the 12 ft sound stage in my room.  No holes - no empty spots - but not contrived.  Just perfect.  Natural, smooth and musical.  Flow out the yin-yang.  The listen session was an 'Event'.  Wow, what a payoff.  So now this is my new litmus test - can a USB upstream do better?  I'm having to doubt it - but I thought that before.
> The caps on the new TeraDak DC-30W (big cap 3300uf) have burnt-in, that and the added 2nd JB - it's really smooth and tonally lush.  But with the greatest detail I have heard yet.
> Will recap this TeraDak this weekend with the Pannie FR's.  Maybe it can get better?


 
  
 So the sound is really something. I do not understand the Hi Res DxD ?   you mean that the redbook sounds like HiRes DSD ?
 Regarding the converter i was thinking to use a AES connection because it is usually quite musical. 
 But if it sounds good it must be really good indeed.
 Thanks a lot again,  gino


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> So the sound is really something. I do not understand the Hi Res DxD ?   you mean that the redbook sounds like HiRes DSD ?
> Regarding the converter i was thinking to use a AES connection because it is usually quite musical.
> But if it sounds good it must be really good indeed.
> Thanks a lot again,  gino


 

 That is the old version - the new one looks like this:


 DxD refers to a new PCM recording standard called 'Digital eXtreme Definition' - 24bit 352K sampling.
  
 Great whitepaper on DxD vs DSD; http://www.merging.com/uploads/assets/Merging_pdfs/dxd_Resolution_v3.5.pdf


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> That is the old version - the new one looks like this:
> 
> 
> DxD refers to a new PCM recording standard called 'Digital eXtreme Definition' - 24bit 352K sampling.
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for the interesting information.
 But i have only cds in my collection ... my main goal is to get a decent performance from redbook format. 
 I am aware that i cannot pretend top performance ... that it will be a compromise.
 I am only looking for a musical experience.
 I like the sound when it is relaxed but dynamic and with detail. 
 regards,   gino


----------



## Triplefun

Re the Gustard U12, I was finally able to realise DSD256 in Foobar using the Thesycon demo driver. DSD256 shows on both the U12 and the X20 (X20 connected using IIS HDMI cable). The DSD256 sound is an improvement on DSD128 and justifies the purchase of the U12 to front the X20.
  
 I then downloaded Chodi's Thesycon 2.23 XMOS driver http://www.speedyshare.com/RXMDH/Luckit-2.23-for-Gustard-U12.rar
 And successfully installed on Windows 10 64bit using the 'unsigned driver' advanced setting mode. I have set the WaveIO buffer to 'extra safe'.
  
 Foorbar and Jriver (MC20) both upsample to 256bit. However, when I play a 24bit/192khz file in Jriver it plays DSD256; if I play the same piece in Foobar it outputs PCM192 and loses much of the dynamics. When I play 44.1Khz files in Foobar they upsample to DSD128 as expected. Why does the output 'drop' to PCM in Foobar but not JRiver? Could it be my HDMI cable quality?


----------



## wwmhf

freda said:


> And one thing i found yesterday it that it is quite significant an improvement to plug the computer through some sort of digital filter so that it does not contaminate the rest of the chain. All my audio components are connected through a basic power bar with some paasive filtering not using any discrete component, so it does not affect dynamics. The computer is plugged to an APC h15 on the digital filter bank.


 
  
 This sounds like a good way to go.


----------



## rb2013

ginetto61 said:


> Thanks for the interesting information.
> But i have only cds in my collection ... my main goal is to get a decent performance from redbook format.
> I am aware that i cannot pretend top performance ... that it will be a compromise.
> I am only looking for a musical experience.
> ...


 

 You'd be surprised at how good those redbook files can sound


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> And one thing i found yesterday it that it is quite significant an improvement to plug the computer through some sort of digital filter so that it does not contaminate the rest of the chain. All my audio components are connected through a basic power bar with some paasive filtering not using any discrete component, so it does not affect dynamics. The computer is plugged to an APC h15 on the digital filter bank.


 

 Do you know what discrete components means?  I think you mean 'active'.  The APCh15 is a AC filter - not a 'digital' filter.  Discrete components have no effect on dynamics if they are designed for high current capacity.  They PB4X4Pro can handle 1800Watts - should be good for DXIO. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Kinda hate to break the news to you - but your APC h15 is loaded with discrete components (non-IC).


 You'll want to replace those metal oxide varistors (MOVs) every few years, as they deteriorate with time (actually line surges).


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Do you know what discrete components means?  I think you mean 'active'.  The APCh15 is a AC filter - not a 'digital' filter.  Discrete components have no effect on dynamics if they are designed for high current capacity.  They PB4X4Pro can handle 1800Watts - should be good for DXIO. :wink_face:
> 
> Kinda hate to break the news to you - but your APC h15 is loaded with discrete components (non-IC).
> 
> ...




The apc h15 has discrete components, i know. I have a diploma in ee. And by digital filter, i mean an ac filter tuned for the purpose of feeding digital components. That filter helps preventing the noise of the computer from getting in the DAC and other audio components.

I have another power distributor made by qls hifi, to which i plug all my audio components. That power distributor has no discrete component. It has no effect on dynamics and makes the sound more relaxed. It is a good distributor. 

Both power distibutor are plugged to the same outlet on the wall, which is a Maestro.


----------



## bimmer100

freda said:


> The apc h15 has discrete components, i know. I have a diploma in ee. And by digital filter, i mean an ac filter tuned for the purpose of feeding digital components. That filter helps preventing the noise of the computer from getting in the DAC and other audio components.
> 
> I have another power distributor made by qls hifi, to which i plug all my audio components. That power distributor has no discrete component. It has no effect on dynamics and makes the sound more relaxed. It is a good distributor.
> 
> Both power distibutor are plugged to the same outlet on the wall, which is a Maestro.





ohhhh yea!!!! The Maestro outlet is something special! The best outlet imho. For sure!
I have tried a lot of outlets!!! I'm using the teslaplex now and don't care for it too much, had a r1, also have a gaofei rhodium plated red copper I really like (translucent blue) 
A vanguard gold plated cryo'd copper, a few music hospital grade outlets and some psaudio outlets too.

I would happily trade my teslaplex for a maestro. It would suit my system more. The teslaplex is better for tube gear, otherwise it's too revealing and bright sounding for most solid state gear. Just my opinion.


----------



## ccschua

as I am playing with Dual PC setup, I finally manage to finetune jplay to work with DXIO. the dual PC added the final touch to music in place.
  
 I was enjoying the music all along the way. I have discovered details that was never heard, and even thought that they were some flaw in my system. it was actually recording faults.
  
 on good recording, I can crank the music to earth shaking volume and it sounds resolved.
  
 next plan is to have the PC, power supply and DXIO all house in one box, if I am happy with it.


----------



## prot

rb2013
did you get that puc2 already? any impressions?


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> ohhhh yea!!!! The Maestro outlet is something special! The best outlet imho. For sure!
> I have tried a lot of outlets!!! I'm using the teslaplex now and don't care for it too much, had a r1, also have a gaofei rhodium plated red copper I really like (translucent blue)
> A vanguard gold plated cryo'd copper, a few music hospital grade outlets and some psaudio outlets too.
> 
> I would happily trade my teslaplex for a maestro. It would suit my system more. The teslaplex is better for tube gear, otherwise it's too revealing and bright sounding for most solid state gear. Just my opinion.




3-4 years ago, maybe more, I ran a search on power outlets. The Maestro seemed to be one to beat. I have been very happy with this purchase. The only audiophile outlet i ever tried but a clear improvement especially after 3-4 days of burning.

I also got on the quest for the best fuse at the same time. The sr-20 is the best i have tried (a notch better than the hifi-tuning supreme). But today, my gears have no fuse, or at least i believe audio-gd uses no fuse. The same for the soft switching smps in my homemade class d power amp. So i got rid of that expense.


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> as I am playing with Dual PC setup, I finally manage to finetune jplay to work with DXIO. the dual PC added the final touch to music in place.
> 
> I was enjoying the music all along the way. I have discovered details that was never heard, and even thought that they were some flaw in my system. it was actually recording faults.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice!


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> The apc h15 has discrete components, i know. I have a diploma in ee. And by digital filter, i mean an ac filter tuned for the purpose of feeding digital components. That filter helps preventing the noise of the computer from getting in the DAC and other audio components.
> 
> I have another power distributor made by qls hifi, to which i plug all my audio components. That power distributor has no discrete component. It has no effect on dynamics and makes the sound more relaxed. It is a good distributor.
> 
> Both power distributor are plugged to the same outlet on the wall, which is a Maestro.


 
 So you just have a power block with no AC filtering at all.  Hmmm...  Might want to try a differential mode AC line filter. 
  
 Read another EE John Swenson on USB PHY processing packet noise - you'll want your DDC on an AC isolation device.  If you have a CD spinner esp you'll want that on separate AC isolated (DC servos are notorious for high freq noise) - It's not just PCs that pollute the AC household line.  Any SMPS (Switching Power Supply), feeds grunge back into the household AC line.  How many of those do you have plugged in around the house?  In fact, any digital audio device can be greatly effected by common AC line noise or household AC line noise (like DAC chips).  Own a refrigerator?  It has a powerful AC motor - when it cycles it adds grunge to your line, Washer/Dryer?  Forced air heater - or Air Conditioner? Neighbors own a vacuum cleaner?  Power saw?  How about EMI/RFI - air traffic near by?  How about some ham radio operators with 30 ft antennae in the vicinity?
  


> Remember that SI consists of rise/fall time, noise, and jitter. The jitter in the SIGNAL is determined by the transmitter PHY, which can be significantly influenced by the clock IT gets and the noise on its PG planes. USUALLY noise is low on the signal as it exits the PHY. The cable (and connectors) cause an increase in raise/fall times, added noise (EMI and crosstalk from power and ground wires) and decreased amplitude of the signal. Any decent receiver will have an automatic gain control (AGC) which compensates for this effect, but that raises the noise on the signal, so I'm lumping the amplitude decrease into noise. The cable by itself rarely adds jitter to the signal, BUT the increased rise/fall times and extra noise cause the received data to have increased jitter in the PHY. This is one of the big issues that all that extra processing is designed to deal with.
> When that XMOS chip is dealing with data from the host it is generating its own noise on the PG planes, part of the noise will be from the PHY and part from the MAC. The PHY part can change due to SI of the USB signal, the rest cannot, it stays the same. If separate ground planes and separate power supplies are not used, that noise can directly affect the DAC chip(s) and the master clock oscillator. As was posted from a previous post of mine, even if separate supplies and planes are used with isolation between them, the effects of this noise still winds up at the DAC chip and clock.
> 
> The part of this noise not from the PHY is always there, it doesn't matter what your cable is, what USB card you have, whether you have a REGEN etc, it's still there. All that stuff is keeping the PHY part from ADDING extra noise that makes things worse.
> ...


 
 In my old house I had a separate AC line put in - with a separate ground pole.  What a difference that made - even with a Nordost Thor and A series of Richard Gray Pro400's.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> So you just have a power block with no AC filtering at all.  Hmmm...  Might want to try a differential mode AC line filter.
> 
> Read another EE John Swenson on USB PHY processing packet noise - you'll want your DDC on an AC isolation device.  If you have a CD spinner esp you'll want that on separate AC isolated (DC servos are notorious for high freq noise) - It's not just PCs that pollute the AC household line.  Any SMPS (Switching Power Supply), feeds grunge back into the household AC line.  How many of those do you have plugged in around the house?  In fact, any digital audio device can be greatly effected by common AC line noise or household AC line noise (like DAC chips).  Own a refrigerator?  It has a powerful AC motor - when it cycles it adds grunge to your line, Washer/Dryer?  Forced air heater - or Air Conditioner? Neighbors own a vacuum cleaner?  Power saw?  How about EMI/RFI - air traffic near by?  How about some ham radio operators with 30 ft antennae in the vicinity?
> 
> In my old house I had a separate AC line put in - with a separate ground pole.  What a difference that made - even with a Nordost Thor and A series of Richard Gray Pro400's.




 I could certainly do more on the isolation part. I have tried the breeze connected to the APC, i prefer the sound on the non Isolated distributor. One thing is for sure, the sound quality changes quite a bit depending on the day of the week in my place. But not so much since i have acquired the wyrd and the jitterbugs. On a good day, i much prefer the sound without filtering. Those filters most often affect the dynamics.

As for my smps fed power amp, it is soft-switched. So it it far less noisy than you would expect. My philosophy is very simple, i prefer to isolate every device on the same circuit than to isolate my audio component, which have better supplies and do less contamination to the ac line. I believe a good linear psu prevents noise on the ac line. 


As for the qls hifi, it does a bit of filtering, although there is no isolation in the strict sense of the term. I also rely on the power cords which provide also some filtering. Same for the Maestro. And then i pray the Lord for good sound.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I could certainly do more on the isolation part. I have tried the breeze connected to the APC, i prefer the sound on the non Isolated distributor. One thing is for sure, the sound quality changes quite a bit depending on the day of the week in my place. But not so much since i have acquired the wyrd and the jitterbugs. On a good day, i much prefer the sound without filtering. Those filters most often affect the dynamics.
> 
> As for my smps fed power amp, it is soft-switched. So it it far less noisy than you would expect. My philosophy is very simple, i prefer to isolate every device on the same circuit than to isolate my audio component, which have better supplies and do less contamination to the ac line. I believe a good linear psu prevents noise on the ac line.
> 
> ...


 

 Well I do run my amps straight to the Teslaplexs - no filtering.  But I found the whole digital chain is helped by separate AC common mode and differential mode isolation.  Just like my phono pre-amp - the noise  digital devices create is amplified many times by the pre-amp and amp stages, so minimizing this very low level source noise is quite important.   Unlike a Class A amp drawing 400-500 Watts with 5 amps peak - or even a class A tube pre-amp - my digital devices, DAC included, draw minimal power - so any possible dynamic compression by current limiting is near impossible.  I certainly don't hear any - but what I do hear is a blacker background due to a much lower floor noise.  This lower floor noise has allowed the more subtle detail to emerge - that detail uncovers the extremely low level ambient clues that go into creating a realistic holographic presentation.  Think 3d point sources radiating out in a three dimensional space as real musicians do.  Versus flattish staggered cardboard cutouts arranged in the  sound field.  With the dark black noise floor - the subtle side and back wave musical reflections are uncovered - to startling effect.
  
 So the bottom line is to achieve the lowest floor noise possible.  This at the same time lowers the digital receivers AGC work - minimizing packet processing induced jitter and time domain echos or reverberation.  Another benefit of course with linear power supplies is the elimination of switching distortion - why I love Class A biased solid state MOSFETs - but this applies to AC to DC power supplies as well.
  
 One area that goes a long way to lowering floor noise - and an area I have spend much time and effort on is vibration control.  Really haven't brought it up until now.  But will address in greater detail down the road.  Every piece of electronic gear (not just PC's with moving parts), generate micro-vibrations - transformers are the worst.  These vibrations cause modulation effects with other electronic components inside your gear.  These vibrations can shown up as induced heat or magnetic effects.  If you can stabilize then bleed off these vibrations you go along way to optimizing your equipments operation.  Minimizing heat and other artifacts generated by these vibrations.  Much has been written about this - and much research - in particular by the USN in nuclear subs and passive sonar detection systems.
  
 I have tried all kind of vibration control devices and have a host of favorites.  Here is a little trick I have found useful.  Buy some lead shot at Walmart and load some in large plastic containers - place on top of your gear with quality vibration dissipation devices underneath.  You would be amazed at the greater clarity and focus that will be produced.
  
 http://www.earsc.com/HOME/engineering/TechnicalWhitePapers/UnderstandingDamping/index.asp?SID=62


> *Vibration Isolation*
> This method reduces the transmission of vibrational energy from one system to another. Common vibration isolators are steel springs, rubber pads or bellows. These devices are available in many shapes and are capable of isolating masses weighing from a few pounds to thousands of pounds.​ An automobile suspension is a good example of damped isolation. Shock absorbers dissipate energy by pumping a fluid through orifices that offer a predetermined resistance to high-velocity flow. Many isolation systems use elastomeric materials to provide both the spring force and damping. Some rubbers are capable of achieving useful damping at certain frequencies, although at low frequencies most exhibit loss factors less than 0.2, or roughly 10 percent of critical damping. At resonance, when a system dissipates the same amount of energy per radian as it stores, it is said to be critically damped. Loss factor is equal to the percentage of critical damping divided by 50.​
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

More on vibration and electronic components:
 http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/vibration.html
  
 Quote:


> As mentioned previously, I believe capacitors, resistors, transistors and other component parts are sensitive to vibration. Therefore, anything we can do to reduce vibration in these components could be sonically beneficial. To this end, we shall explore a few of the options available for the more ambitious tweaks among you.
> Capacitors, in particular, are sensitive to mechanical vibration. A few manufacturers attempt to control extraneous movements by gluing these parts to the circuit boards. This method, however, will only be effective if the circuit board has been effectively decoupled from the chassis. This usually is not the case. Alternately, damping the part itself by the application of surface treatments has proved beneficial. Strips of Q-Damp or Iso-Damp are well suited to this task. If you are so inclined, experiment by placing small strips of damping material on capacitors in critical areas of the circuit. Additionally, you may want to consider isolating and/or damping the circuit board itself. This measure is especially effective in the case of tubed electronics. Note: One should only attempt these modifications if they feel comfortable with the task.


----------



## FredA

I am aware of vibration-induced noise. I try to take that into acount assembling an amplifier. I use heavy aluminum enclosures and aluminum feet with rubber underneath to do some vibration absorption. My mini in on carbon cones, and that way, in addtion to reducing vibrations, it cools down better. The rack i use is on spikes which lie on some sort of semi-soft plastic disks made for that purpose and providing some damping. Same for my speaker, which i put on suspended platform, using feet that are tuned to their weight (available at partsconnexions).. You want to avoid vibrations coming from the speakers. I had another goals with those platform: avoid high-frequency lateral motion that could be induced by the lateral boomer on the Gallo 3.1 speakers i use. This helped obtaining a more accurate stereo image. 

I would like adding some filtering to my dac, ddc and pre at some point. And install a dedicated 20a circuit. And then a linear supply to my mini. But i don't have much space left to add new gears. I believe i would need some high-frequency noise filtering, mainly.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> You'd be surprised at how good those redbook files can sound


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice.
 It is important for me to know that we the right playback system even redbook can sound very good.  It means that the problem is not the medium but something else. 
 After all my music is only on cds.
 Thanks again. Kind regards,  gino


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> So you just have a power block with no AC filtering at all.  Hmmm...  Might want to try a differential mode AC line filter.
> Read another EE John Swenson on USB PHY processing packet noise - you'll want your DDC on an AC isolation device.
> If you have a CD spinner esp you'll want that on separate AC isolated (DC servos are notorious for high freq noise) - It's not just PCs that pollute the AC household line.
> Any SMPS (Switching Power Supply), feeds grunge back into the household AC line.
> ...


 
  
 Hi ! just to give my humble experience.  The quality of the AC is very important.  And often AC is very polluted with noise.
 Many times listening late at night with headphones the sound was much better than during the day.  And on Sunday also was better. 
 I think that digital equipment are very sensitive to noise also outside the audio bandwidth.  I have the feeling for instance that noise at high Hz can have a bad impact on clock stability for once.
 Clearly in a situation of polluted AC a cable can make a difference acting in the end as a filter.  And different cables with different electrical parameters, and therefore filtering effect, can indeed give different "sound".
 IMHO *a well designed filter should allow to use just a decent and not esoteric power cable after it.  *
 Again IMHO in a situation of noisy mains even just replacing a toroidal transformer (that i deeply hate with digital ) with one like the one depicted below
 would pay big dividends in terms of mains noise suppression. Big big indeed. 
  

  
*Very sadly all these cheap but very good converters use toroidals ... why ????   *





 toroidals let almost all the mains noise to reach the circutis !!!
 Thanks a lot for the very helpful explanations.
 Regards, gino


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I am aware of vibration-induced noise. I try to take that into acount assembling an amplifier. I use heavy aluminum enclosures and aluminum feet with rubber underneath to do some vibration absorption. My mini in on carbon cones, and that way, in addtion to reducing vibrations, it cools down better. The rack i use is on spikes which lie on some sort of semi-soft plastic disks made for that purpose and providing some damping. Same for my speaker, which i put on suspended platform, using feet that are tuned to their weight (available at partsconnexions).. You want to avoid vibrations coming from the speakers. I had another goals with those platform: avoid high-frequency lateral motion that could be induced by the lateral boomer on the Gallo 3.1 speakers i use. This helped obtaining a more accurate stereo image.
> 
> I would like adding some filtering to my dac, ddc and pre at some point. And install a dedicated 20a circuit. And then a linear supply to my mini. But i don't have much space left to add new gears. I believe i would need some high-frequency noise filtering, mainly.


 
 The placing of a dense weight on top of say a DAC that is then on vibration control footers seems to be a winning play.  It helps to mechanically couple the chassis to the footer to allow better vibration dissipation.  I like the Stillpoint footers and Synergistic Research MIG's.  The MIG's I have under all my amps - they can even be 'tuned' by reversing the cups.  I have tried about a dozen different devices - these worked the best.  I use Vibrapod pad and cones under the DDC's with a 1lb weight on top.  The weight also act to stabilize the cables hanging from the back.  Note that Cerious Tech use of ceramic and subnano particles to reduce micro vibrations in their Graphene Xtreme cables.
  


> MiG: Mechanical Interface Grounding  Our new MiG component footers deliver vast improvements to all systems. Based on our Acoustic ART System resonators, MiG’s (Mechanical Interface Grounding) re-tune a component’s mechanical resonance, while providing a lightning fast drain of mechanical energy to ground. The result is a much larger soundstage with a lower noise floor for blacker backgrounds.


 


  


ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice.
> It is important for me to know that we the right playback system even redbook can sound very good.  It means that the problem is not the medium but something else.
> After all my music is only on cds.
> Thanks again. Kind regards,  gino


 
 Since so little of what I listen to is on true DSD or Hi Res (96k, 176k, 192k) - I have focused on Redbook.  I have DSD versions of say Norah Jones, also on 200gm Vinyl, also Redbook.   So I can compare.  The Redbook files are getting closer - but of course each improvement makes the DSD and digitalized (at 32 bit, 176k) LP sound better s well.
  


ginetto61 said:


> Hi ! just to give my humble experience.  The quality of the AC is very important.  And often AC is very polluted with noise.
> Many times listening late at night with headphones the sound was much better than during the day.  And on Sunday also was better.
> I think that digital equipment are very sensitive to noise also outside the audio bandwidth.  I have the feeling for instance that noise at high Hz can have a bad impact on clock stability for once.
> Clearly in a situation of polluted AC a cable can make a difference acting in the end as a filter.  And different cables with different electrical parameters, and therefore filtering effect, can indeed give different "sound".
> ...


 
 Yes you are right R-core transformers are better at noise rejection.  So one nice thing about the DXIO you can use an R-core TeraDak DC-30W.  That said the Cerious Graphene cable makes a very significant difference with the R-Core TeraDak.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> The placing of a dense weight on top of say a DAC that is then on vibration control footers seems to be a winning play.  It helps to mechanically couple the chassis to the footer to allow better vibration dissipation.  I like the Stillpoint footers and Synergistic Research MIG's.  The MIG's I have under all my amps - they can even be 'tuned' by reversing the cups.  I have tried about a dozen different devices - these worked the best.  I use Vibrapod pad and cones under the DDC's with a 1lb weight on top.  The weight also act to stabilize the cables hanging from the back.  Note that Cerious Tech use of ceramic and subnano particles to reduce micro vibrations in their Graphene Xtreme cables.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I like those vibrapads. They make sense since they take the weight into account. Never tried them on gears though besides speakers. Some gears benefit more from damping and suspending than others. I have a friend who owns a Musical Fidelity that sounds boring unless on a suspension.


----------



## rb2013

wwmhf said:


> I remember someone said: trust your ears, not just data or measurements.


 
 I'm with them.  The trouble is you have to know what to measure and how.  The ears aren't oscilloscopes.  In fact to this day scientists still can't figure out how humans hear in spatial terms.  The time differential of an object at 10 feet is so small and the length of the auditory nerve so long - that the speed differential of the right and left ear can not be how we construct a three dimensional location.  Yet we do with uncanny precision.
  


freda said:


> I like those vibrapads. They make sense since they take the weight into account. Never tried them on gears though besides speakers. Some gears benefit more from damping and suspending than others. I have a friend who owns a Musical Fidelity that sounds boring unless on a suspension.


 
 I have used them to good effect for years - the Stillpoints are a reasonable and better alternative.  The best are the SRA (Silent Running Audio) - but insanely expensive. But they do sound great.  http://www.silentrunningaudio.com/audioisolationreviews/Reviews/Review2-Ultimate-Vibration-Control-Lars-Fredell.htm
  
 http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/stillpoints.htm
  
 I should mention the Finite Element Ceraballs as well.
  
 Here is an interesting shootout. http://singaporehifi.blogspot.com/2012/05/footer-shootout-good-bad-and-ugly.html
  
 I recieved this Music Direct catalogue over the holidays  number 16 with Janis Joplin on the cover - this 274 page book is a great work.  Not only is it a great reference for recordings available on Hi Res SACD, PCM and vinyl - it has tons of gear.  And some new interesting isolation stuff.
  
 A new line from Nordost of cones and these reasonable BDR Pyramid Mk3 and Mk4 cones.  The BDR's are $20 each. 
  
 BTW the Vibrapad feet are $5.99 each and their cones are $7.99 each.  A large bottle of steel BB's at Walmart are $10.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I'm with them.  The trouble is you have to know what to measure and how.  The ears aren't oscilloscopes.  In fact to this day scientists still can't figure out how humans hear in spatial terms.  The time differential of an object at 10 feet is so small and the length of the auditory nerve so long - that the speed differential of the right and left ear can not be how we construct a three dimensional location.  Yet we do with uncanny precision.
> 
> I have used them to good effect for years - the Stillpoints are a reasonable and better alternative.  The best are the SRA (Silent Running Audio) - but insanely expensive. But they do sound great.  http://www.silentrunningaudio.com/audioisolationreviews/Reviews/Review2-Ultimate-Vibration-Control-Lars-Fredell.htm
> 
> ...




Ebay is full of interesting products. This one uses a magnetic suspension and seems well made. 

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/4PCS-D48-H40-Sound-Isolation-Spikes-Maglev-feet-HIFI-audio-Stand-mat-/111791073497?hash=item1a074468d9:g:bmgAAOSwd0BVvdRy

Too bad i have blown 120$ on a network isolator that does not work as i2s galvanic isolator, otherwise i might get tempted to order a set for my m7. And i was thinking of a couple of vibrapads for the breeze. Funny you mentioned putting something on top of the ddc. I have a souvenir fron Istanbul, weighting about 1 pound, on top of the breeze, added when i switched for a heavier power cable, and i think it might have helped making it sound better. It is make out of some dense plastic material (acrylic?) that looks like having nice damping properties. The aluminum shell is not very thick and most likely prone to vibration transmission. That bloc of acrylic must help.

The night is still young. I will go through ebay to find the most interesting products. But i really like the idea of a magnetic suspension. Must be one of smoothest possible and must be very consistent. They are using that techno in automotive these days. This mAkes me think of that amazing Ford Mustang shelby gt350r which offers realtime stiffness adjustments based on the g forces. I don't like muscle cars usually but this car seems unbelievably good. Loads of funs.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Ebay is full of interesting products. This one uses a magnetic suspension and seems well made.
> 
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/4PCS-D48-H40-Sound-Isolation-Spikes-Maglev-feet-HIFI-audio-Stand-mat-/111791073497?hash=item1a074468d9:g:bmgAAOSwd0BVvdRy
> 
> ...


 A decade ago I used magnetic isolators. The problem is they tend to drift to one side then once the metal makes contact they lose their magnetic float. But keep looking, I'm open to trying some new things.


----------



## ginetto61

rb2013 said:


> ...   Since so little of what I listen to is on true DSD or Hi Res (96k, 176k, 192k) - I have focused on Redbook.  I have DSD versions of say Norah Jones, also on 200gm Vinyl, also Redbook.   So I can compare.
> *The Redbook files are getting closer* - but of course each improvement makes the DSD and digitalized (at 32 bit, 176k) LP sound better s well.


 
  
 Hi and thanks a lot again.  This is very important for me.  I do not pretend top performance. Only a musical result. Relaxing and involving. 


> *Yes you are right R-core transformers are better at noise rejection.*  So one nice thing about the DXIO you can use an R-core TeraDak DC-30W.
> *That said the Cerious Graphene cable makes a very significant difference with the R-Core TeraDak.*


 
 Thanks again and good to know. 
 I have my take about vibration control.  I am a lot for taking out the transformer from the box with the circuit.  I did some experiments and i had the feeling (no measurements to support this only listening test) that the transformer can be a very bad beast for the units.  Putting it externally has always given back a more relaxed sound.  I know it is a little wierd but i think that the real and more nasty vibrations are those internals in the components.
 Transformers are the most vibrating parts in a device.  Just touch it and feel the vibrations. And of course the metal case amplifies them so yes a weight placed above the case almost always had a very positive effect. I like very much lead even if it is poisonous. 
 This is very bad indeed.   I understand that is much more convenient to keep it inside ... but the best is seldom the easiest.
 Thanks a lot again.  Have a nice day 
 gino


----------



## rb2013

Sorry about that folks - now back to business.  PUC2 Lite arrives today!


----------



## abartels

Can happen, no sweat 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , we're all on a learning curve, that's why we call ourselves human 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Curious about first impressions!
  
  
 Btw, did you guys heard of, and maybe demoed Acoustic Revive RR-777 / RR-888
  
https://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/roomtuning/rr-77.html
  
 There's a Patend pending, hmm, just received my own designed pcb's today,,,,,, not sure if they can sue me because I use different schematics, different Chip,,,,,,


----------



## FredA

Just a new bit about isolation. There is a thread on bamboo planks on headfi. Tried it under thr Master-7. Got a small but noticeable upgrade. Used just about 1 inch thick. Just did the same under my audio-gd pre. Seems to work as well.

Hey rb2013 how about the new mx-u8? Seems very similar to thr breeze with better chassis. In think someone is about to compare them on the mx-u8 thread. Could be a contender.


----------



## bimmer100

I have way too much stuff I'm waiting on in the mail... I still plan to do some reviews on all this gear everyone has been talking about.
I still am waiting for some crystals to arrive to mod some of the ddc's.
The breeze should be a breeze with 957's
The diu8 will be complex and can't use 575's as they don't have correct pin1 for crystal to turn on and off. I will try brain surgery with NDK's on one xmos board, 957's with custom elevated platform I'm still planning that.. And the third xmos board with stock crystals. Likely may end up with NDK's.
The pro3a is on the way and grabbed a DIY xmos to i2s USB module too, with NDK's. (Maybe will make a DDC with HDMI i2s In a little black box 
So is the two diff regulators , one from acko dac ah75
And the other one I can't remember the name now. Bellison super power mk2
I may have a bunch of extra parts avail for those who might want to source some crystals , sockets and platform boards for 957's. 
I'm waiting to hear from kingwa about the extra xmos boards I'm ordering and HDMI i2s output kit. 
I did however get ahold of the cable company who makes the graphene extreme and finally got one of those ordered up. Along with some maestro outlets which I'm installing one of them in my psaudio p300.
I'm not to excited right now since my edition x's were sent in for warranty to replace entirely because I'm too picky and they had a minor cosmetic flaw... Haha. But I want a perfect pair.
In the meantime I bought a pair of hd800's and been using sonar works plugin with jriver. It's not too shabby. I still prefer edition x's. But it's amazing how many haters there are of the edition X, but many hate the hd800 too. So whatever. 
Once I get all the ddc's sorted, I will get actual detailed measurements of each, from jitter to freq response and noise figures etc. the interesting stuff.  but likely won't be til next month .
My father in law had a medical emergency/accident and have family matters to attend to for a while. All is fine and will keep posting when I can. 
I'm excited to see someone post some comparison results of ddc's as well. Hoping maybe rb2013 and I would be able to spend a day doing some auditioning of the ddc's and take notes to share with everyone.


----------



## panhead

rb2013 said:


> A decade ago I used magnetic isolators. The problem is they tend to drift to one side then once the metal makes contact they lose their magnetic float. But keep looking, I'm open to trying some new things.


 
 I think vibration is very important to getting good sound.    When the breeze first arrived it was sitting on top of the pc.  (which is on the valabs).    A very large improvement came from sitting the breeze on the valabs on a cutting board which sits on mapleshade pads.  I use 5 lb scuba weights on top of things where possible as airborn vibration also has an effect.   Learned this from a recent HRS seminar that I attended.
  
 Right now almost everything is sitting on these:
  
  
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valab-Audio-Vibration-Isolation-Damper-Feet-4-Pcs-/301844883492?
  
 The above setup even helps the dish box sound and look better.
  
  
 Now back to the regular scheduled channel:   Please update us when the puc arrives!!!


----------



## FredA

panhead said:


> I think vibration is very important to getting good sound.    When the breeze first arrived it was sitting on top of the pc.  (which is on the valabs).    A very large improvement came from sitting the breeze on the valabs on a cutting board which sits on mapleshade pads.  I use 5 lb scuba weights on top of things where possible as airborn vibration also has an effect.   Learned this from a recent HRS seminar that I attended.
> 
> Right now almost everything is sitting on these:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Interesting. Cheap tweeks. I like it. Thanks.


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> Can happen, no sweat
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Alex - Will check out.  Sweet looking board.
  


freda said:


> Just a new bit about isolation. There is a thread on bamboo planks on headfi. Tried it under thr Master-7. Got a small but noticeable upgrade. Used just about 1 inch thick. Just did the same under my audio-gd pre. Seems to work as well.
> 
> Hey rb2013 how about the new mx-u8? Seems very similar to thr breeze with better chassis. In think someone is about to compare them on the mx-u8 thread. Could be a contender.


 
 Were did you get the bamboo planks - sounds interesting.
  
 I had three original MX-U8's - all had problems.  Managed to fix two - but the QC was deplorable.  And they were kind of expensive at $250 each.  So I'm done with Melodious.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I have way too much stuff I'm waiting on in the mail... I still plan to do some reviews on all this gear everyone has been talking about.
> I still am waiting for some crystals to arrive to mod some of the ddc's.
> The breeze should be a breeze with 957's
> The diu8 will be complex and can't use 575's as they don't have correct pin1 for crystal to turn on and off. I will try brain surgery with NDK's on one xmos board, 957's with custom elevated platform I'm still planning that.. And the third xmos board with stock crystals. Likely may end up with NDK's.
> ...


 

 Yes you need the 'Tri-State' version.  It looks like a 'Tri-State' version of the 575 isn't available from Digikey at least.
 The NDK SD's has the Tri-State function.   Good luck with the mounting efforts.
  
 Waiting to see which of the regulators you prefer.  The Belleson's come highly recommended.
  
 I sold my HD800's and I'm trying to decide to go Stax SR-9/BHSE or the new HD800S/ SCHIIT MJ2.  Likely the later and save some bucks.  Really into my speaker systems right now.
  
 Game to meet up and spend a day comparing the different DDC's for sure.  Hope your family is well.
  
 Tonight the PUC2 lite goes head to head with the DXIO/LPS.  So we'll see what's what - luckily I have A Canare AES to RCA adapter and a 10db attenuator on hand.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Yes you need the 'Tri-State' version.  It looks like a 'Tri-State' version of the 575 isn't available from Digikey at least.
> The NDK SD's has the Tri-State function.   Good luck with the mounting efforts.
> 
> Waiting to see which of the regulators you prefer.  The Belleson's come highly recommended.
> ...


 
 can you confirm something for me? The PRO3A's dc input says 5.5mm outer diameter.how silly, the inner diameter is important too!!! is it 2.1mm or 2.5mm?
  
 I have all my LPS with 2.5mm. I hope this is what it uses...


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Thanks Alex - Will check out.  Sweet looking board.
> 
> Were did you get the bamboo planks - sounds interesting.
> 
> I had three original MX-U8's - all had problems.  Managed to fix two - but the QC was deplorable.  And they were kind of expensive at $250 each.  So I'm done with Melodious.




Got them for 3$ each at a dollar shop. Had to use 2 per component, they're just 13 x 8 inches. Just one inch tick, seems efficient and looks not so bad. Good WAF, especially since i have none... Bamboo is supposed to be a very good damper for audio gears.

Might pull the trigger on an Intona usb isolator, a guy on the "vintage/current r2r dacs" thread has one and said it blows the regen away. This device has galvanic isolation. It is usb-powered. He reported a soundstage twice as larged with it. I'll sell my my lan isolator, check for more user feedback and... Their seemed to be some problems with the first batch, might be resolved now. If it works, i'll sell then sell my Wyrd but keep the jitterbugs, can't go wrong with them.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> can you confirm something for me? The PRO3A's dc input says 5.5mm outer diameter.how silly, the inner diameter is important too!!! is it 2.1mm or 2.5mm?
> 
> I have all my LPS with 2.5mm. I hope this is what it uses...


 

 Yes it's 2.5mm std - 5.5mm silly I agree!


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Got them for 3$ each at a dollar shop. Had to use 2 per component, they're just 13 x 8 inches. Just one inch tick, seems efficient and looks not so bad. Good WAF, especially since i have none... Bamboo is supposed to be a very good damper for audio gears.
> 
> Might pull the trigger on an Intona usb isolator, a guy on the "vintage/current r2r dacs" thread has one and said it blows the regen away. This device has galvanic isolation. It is usb-powered. He reported a soundstage twice as larged with it. I'll sell my my lan isolator, check for more user feedback and... Their seemed to be some problems with the first batch, might be resolved now. If it works, i'll sell then sell my Wyrd but keep the jitterbugs, can't go wrong with them.


 
 Intona usb Isolator - worth a try.  Did you give the Regen a try?  It really needs a good LPS to deliver - I had mixed results - sounds amazing on my office system.  But on the main system it actually made things sound worse with the Hydra Z.


----------



## rb2013

OK PUC2 Lite is up and running.  First impressions - very, very good.  But not nearly as good as the DXIO and the TeraDak DC-30W (3300uf caps).  Very strange - does not like the Jitterbugs - wouldn't even get recognized for installation with them.  Removed then installed fine.
  
 Listening - the sound was smooth and sweet - good air and detail.  But not in the same league as the DXIO/DC-30W/JB in the transparency and imaging department.  But better then the Breeze/Cerious - which is saying a lot.
  
 Will let her settle in for a day then try the TeraDak X1 that I recapped.
  
 Oh and when I added the JBs back after install, it worked, sounded pretty veiled.  Like a U12 - from what I'm used to with the DXIO a let down for sure.  But easy enough to remove those fellows.  Already missing that damn DXIO - so darn addicting.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Will give the PUC2 a day or so to see if the magic is there, while I recap the DXIO's big TeraDak DC-30w with Pannie FR's.


----------



## Rhamnetin

Does the Breeze DU-U8 use the same driver as the Gustard U12?  That'd make setup and comparisons a lot easier.


----------



## bimmer100

I had to order one of those Itona High Speed USB Isolators. NOT the industrial version since there is no audible increase of performance, only for applications non audio related. 
  
 Would love to test this device


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Intona usb Isolator - worth a try.  Did you give the Regen a try?  It really needs a good LPS to deliver - I had mixed results - sounds amazing on my office system.  But on the main system it actually made things sound worse with the Hydra Z.




I did not try the regen. Too expensive considering the lps and i really think galvanic isolation should make a big difference. Get rid of common noise is the idea. The differential noise can be handled by the JBs and the breeze very well. 

And the combination of JBs and Wyrd is already excellent, so i did not see the point. My source is really close to king-of-audio-show quality, the kind of sound that would cost over 10k. 

Hi-speed usb (480 mebabits/s) galvanically isolated is a breaktrough and 250 usd is a raisonable amount for this. We are starting to read very positive feedback. 

I could decide also to assemble my own usb to i2s converter WITH galvanic isolation on the i2s output, which is also a great idea. Their are at least 2 diy boards with this feature available. 

However, i think that it would be beneficial to have BOTH: galvanic isolation between the computer and the ddc, and between the ddc and i2s dac. 

I insist on using i2s because that is the best input on the audio-gd M7. And jitter can go lower with in theory through it. Might need to replace flat cable used to transport i2s inside the M7 by cat7 shielded cable to have the maximum effect. That tweek might at this point already make a difference. This piece of wire is on sockets so the change is easilly reversible. Just need to assemble a wire with the proper connectors and length.


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> I had to order one of those Itona High Speed USB Isolators. NOT the industrial version since there is no audible increase of performance, only for applications non audio related.
> 
> Would love to test this device





Great. If you like it, i will order it.


----------



## Nu3nO

abartels said:


> Btw, did you guys heard of, and maybe demoed Acoustic Revive RR-777 / RR-888
> 
> https://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/roomtuning/rr-77.html


 
  
 Cool, but...
  
 Schumann Resonance: Revisited
http://6moons.com/audioreviews/schumann2/revisited.html
  
 Facts & Fiction of the Schumann Resonance
https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4352
  
 Gregg Braden Debunked
https://vimeo.com/8517545


----------



## abartels

nu3no said:


> abartels said:
> 
> 
> > Btw, did you guys heard of, and maybe demoed Acoustic Revive RR-777 / RR-888
> ...


 
  
 There's a lot more going on, scientiffically,,,,, It's not wise to tamper with frequency range / settings.
 Components have arrived so will build mine this evening. Report back later.
  
 http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_cambio06a.htm


----------



## bimmer100

freda said:


> Great. If you like it, i will order it.


 
  
  
 I stand corrected. GET THE INDUSTRIAL VERSION... I talked with Itona for a while and realized the industrial version does have it's advantages. The FPGA chips inside have tighter timing at room temperature and would have better compatibility with audio related projects. So I did change my order to the Industrial version. ALSO, custom ordered the LED to not FLASH at high speed but stay steady. That would drive me bonkers. 
  
  
 the Itona has surpassed the regen in all categories, even the regen modded with the neutrino star clock mod. 
 The Itona has so many more advantages than the Regen. As many stated the regen didn't do anything or much in their system, they claimed the Itona actually did work!
 So in my case the Regen did nothing, if not made things worse. The Itona shouldn't make things worse yet improve things. We shall see!... or I mean... Hear!
  
 -Tim
  
 p.s. part of the email Daniel sent me said " but please consider that most customers decide for the Industrial Version as the built-in industrial-grade FPGAs have better timing margin at room temperature which may lead to better overall-compatibility.

Best regards,
Daniel"
  
so, it may not be better audio quality, but better compatibility. Seems to be better for devices that don't need power since it has it's limitations. 300mv on the low end, and 500mv with 50mv drop to 450mv in most condtions.  But all the xmos boards should be fine. At first there were some glitches with the early xmos boards but they fixed everything in their firmware updates. They are reliable now.


----------



## wwmhf

rhamnetin said:


> Does the Breeze DU-U8 use the same driver as the Gustard U12?  That'd make setup and comparisons a lot easier.


 
  
 I think the do, at least, in my set up.


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> I stand corrected. GET THE INDUSTRIAL VERSION... I talked with Itona for a while and realized the industrial version does have it's advantages. The FPGA chips inside have tighter timing at room temperature and would have better compatibility with audio related projects. So I did change my order to the Industrial version. ALSO, custom ordered the LED to not FLASH at high speed but stay steady. That would drive me bonkers.
> 
> 
> the Itona has surpassed the regen in all categories, even the regen modded with the neutrino star clock mod.
> ...


 
 I would order stuff more promptly if it was not for the can $. Everything costs 50% more now than 3 years ago.


----------



## rb2013

rhamnetin said:


> Does the Breeze DU-U8 use the same driver as the Gustard U12?  That'd make setup and comparisons a lot easier.


 
 For me the Breeze worked with all drivers - no hand shake needed - but have not tried it with the DXIO 3.2 yet.
  


freda said:


> I did not try the regen. Too expensive considering the lps and i really think galvanic isolation should make a big difference. Get rid of common noise is the idea. The differential noise can be handled by the JBs and the breeze very well.
> 
> And the combination of JBs and Wyrd is already excellent, so i did not see the point. My source is really close to king-of-audio-show quality, the kind of sound that would cost over 10k.
> 
> ...


 
 The Regen goes far beyond just galvanic isolation. IN fact if you read Swenson on the PHY packet processing induced 'packet noise' - it can jump galvanic isolators - even optical and magnetic ones.  The noise intermodulates with the analog data stream to across the isolators.  The design of the Regen is very attuned to exact impedance matching and of course reclocking the USB data stream.
  


bimmer100 said:


> I stand corrected. GET THE INDUSTRIAL VERSION... I talked with Itona for a while and realized the industrial version does have it's advantages. The FPGA chips inside have tighter timing at room temperature and would have better compatibility with audio related projects. So I did change my order to the Industrial version. ALSO, custom ordered the LED to not FLASH at high speed but stay steady. That would drive me bonkers.
> 
> 
> the Itona has surpassed the regen in all categories, even the regen modded with the neutrino star clock mod.
> ...


 
 Both Tanly and Audiobyte (Hydra Z) use FPGA in lieu or transformers to filter.  So not really unique there- but this is cool that you can add to any DDC. 
  
 BTW has anyone tried Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio's Empirical Audio Short Block USB filter:
 It's $199 but looks very interesting - maybe just the same as the iDAC USB filter
  
 http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/short-block
  


> The Short Block is a USB cable filter that plugs in-line with the USB cable from your computer to your USB interface (either a USB converter or USB DAC). The Short Block is usually plugged into the USB DAC or USB converter and then the USB cable plugged into it. The purpose of the Short-Block is to improve audio quality by reducing jitter caused by common-mode noise on the USB cable.
> Common-mode noise is voltage that develops on both of the differential signal lines in the USB cable. Ideally, this voltage would never be present or be fully rejected by the receiver USB interface, but in real systems with multiple grounds and imperfect USB drivers and receivers the noise is usually present and impacts audio quality. The Short Block reduces this common-mode noise, primarily at high-frequencies. If you have power-line hum in your system, it will generally not fix this.
> The Short Block severs the +5V wire in the USB cable, so devices that rely on the +5V power in the USB cable cannot use the Short Block. The Short Block does not work reliably with the Off-Ramp 3, but works well with recent Overdrives, Off-Ramp 4 and Off-Ramp 5.
> The Short block is a passive device, so it requires no power. The only requirement when using the Short Block is that the AC power for the computer of the system and the USB interface device (either USB converter or USB DAC) be source from the same AC circuit. This means using the same outlet or string of outlets from the AC panel. This minimizes the common-mode noise by itself and prevents potentially damaging voltages from being developed between the computer and the USB interface when the Short Block is installed.
> The difference with the Short-Block is usually not subtle. It will take a soundstage that is relatively flat in depth and improve the depth and imaging significantly. A much more 3D presentation.


 
 Now he says it's not compatible with XMOS DDC's.  I have modded a Jitterbug to be a VBUS Blocker as well and use it on just the data line of the split 2G or Forza cable.  I clipped the pin 1 and 4 inside the JB then re-glued the case.  I just an unmodded JB on the power leg just to get the music playing then disconnect it.  The Breeze does not seem to need any USB power handshake - the DXIO and PUC2 lite do.
  


> > "Across the board improvements in imaging, but particularly in image height. Width is also improved, particularly the specificity of images beyond the width of the speakers."
> > http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107842.msg1171703#msg1171703
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

OK After a long listening session with the PUC2 last night (no JB's - they just made it to woolly on my main system) and USB power I have a greater understanding of the sound difference to the DXIO/DC-30W/Cerious/JBs.
  
 The PUC2 Lite is definitely darker in character - this may benefit some systems. Less detail and air.  A tad more bass, but not nearly as well defined.  But here is the BIG difference - the imaging and realism.  When listening to the PUC2 it sounded great - sweet, rich in tone, fun.  I felt I was listening to a great stereo presentation.  But something was missing.
  
 Putting the DXIO/DC-30W/Cerious - no JB's - back in I found the tone just a little to thin - but putting the JB's back in absolutely perfect in pitch and tonal color.  But the big thing for me was the presentation.  With the DXIO system in place the music swept around my listening chair into the back corners of the room and behind me.  The presentation was total immersion.  NOT the feeling of listening to a great stereo - but being at a Live concert.  You feel you are part of the 'Musical Event' - the presence of the performers life sized and spooky real.  The 3D Holographic nature never more spellbinding then what I'm hearing now.  You just get captured by the performance - excited to hear the next musical treat to be presented.  The overdrive guitar in the left part of the sound field - bells hanging in space towards the right - real as I have ever heard - the Singer center stage a spot light turned on.  Seeming to be a real presence in the room.  Every nuanced detail gracefully there.  Emotionally connected - live in all senses but visual.  The dimensions of the recorded venue superseding the actual dimensions of my listening room.
 Mesmerized I'm frozen for the entire album. 
  
 That is truly an extraordinary feat for any stereo system.  How can a two speaker (albeit 5ft tall panels) sound like a 5.1 surround sound  - I haven't the foggiest idea.  It's auditory magic.
  
 One other thing about the DXIO system - the way that the bass and mid-bass notes - they seem to emanate from the stage then sweep over you in a tactile way.  A hearing/feeling sensation.  Bass peddles and any lower octave syns - sweep over you then fill the entire room into the deep corners behind you.  A uniform layer - you embedded in the middle.  What a trip.
  
 Will try the X1 TeraDak on the PUC2 tonight - but have decided to order a second DXIO this morning.  I just can't see the LPS making enough of a difference.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> For me the Breeze worked with all drivers - no hand shake needed - but have not tried it with the DXIO 3.2 yet.
> 
> The Regen goes far beyond just galvanic isolation. IN fact if you read Swenson on the PHY packet processing induced 'packet noise' - it can jump galvanic isolators - even optical and magnetic ones.  The noise intermodulates with the analog data stream to across the isolators.  The design of the Regen is very attuned to exact impedance matching and of course reclocking the USB data stream.
> 
> ...


 
 SO.... The Itona is not just an isolater. in fact the Regen is a poor one if you think it's a galvanic isolation. please take a moment to read this thread.
  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/which-one-buy-uptone-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-regen-or-intona-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-isolator-26815/
  
 this quote from the Daniel @ Itona too: for FAQ's from us audiophile folk...
 "
 intona 






 Newbie Join Date
 Dec 2015

 Location
 Germany

 Posts
 4

  


 


> I am glad about your positive feedback.
> 
> My name is Daniel and I am CEO of Intona Technology, Germany and also the head developer of the USB 2.0 Hi-Speed Isolator.
> 
> ...





>





> _*notice the ***** is referring to REGEN FYI. but... yea.*_





>





>





> _*check out this board, it's using fast crystals rated at 2ps*_





> _* SILabs Mems Oscillator*_





>





>


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## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> SO.... The Itona is not just an isolater. in fact the Regen is a poor one if you think it's a galvanic isolation. please take a moment to read this thread.
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/which-one-buy-uptone-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-regen-or-intona-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-isolator-26815/
> 
> ...


 

 Great stuff!  But if the purpose of the isolator is "The intended purpose is complete isolation of both data and power lines." What good would it do if you have already completely severed the data and power lines?  With the Jitterbug modded into a VBUS Blocker - in other worlds the power lines are completely severed from the data line - and the use of a split cable - and external power supply.  What would this add?  OR I should say subtract?  BTW How much are they?
  
 The phase noise of the SITime clocks are much higher then the NDK SD and Crystek CCHD-957.  Fortunately my system does NOT need to deal with 2G acceraltions 24/7!  Not until I mount one in my Bugatti Veyron.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  

  


> Then the quality of the crystal oscillator is important too. Are you using, say, Crystek oscillators?
> It is a SiLabs MEMS oscillator, with measured Jitter around 2ps. This is, because 1. we have some customers that need mechanicly rugged hardware because they use our isolators at repeated >2g acceleration 24h/7d - crystals will fail here


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## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Great stuff!  But if the purpose of the isolator is "The intended purpose is complete isolation of both data and power lines." What good would it do if you have already completely severed the data and power lines?  With the Jitterbug modded into a VBUS Blocker - in other worlds the power lines are completely severed from the data line - and the use of a split cable - and external power supply.  What would this add?  OR I should say subtract?  BTW How much are they?
> 
> The phase noise of the SITime clocks are much higher then the NDK SD and Crystek CCHD-957.  Fortunately my system does NOT need to deal with 2G acceraltions 24/7!  Not until I mount one in my Bugatti Veyron.


 
  quote: " in other worlds the power lines are completely severed from the data line..."  
  
 j/k
  
 but in other worlds it might be. I've asked Daniel for a response to your inquisitive questions as I also wonder the answers. 
  
 I believe there is something more complex that it appears. The internals of the device are impressive, but the external appearance looks like an old Tandy computer or Atari. 
  
  
 also, this is for USB timing, not audio... so the SiLabs 2picosecond rated clock should be sufficient   better spec'd than the upton regen amber...and if you read the thread, it even was better than the guy who modded his regen with the neutron star dexa clock...those are over 400usd ea! 
 http://www.partsconnexion.com/digital_dexans.html
  
 he admitted the Itona outperformed his Uptone Regen Amber with mods...all by itself.


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## robertsong

Anybody have a link to the newest Thesycon 3.29 driver discussed a while back? You can PM me if you have to.
  
  
  


> BTW has anyone tried Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio's Empirical Audio Short Block USB filter:
> It's $199 but looks very interesting - maybe just the same as the iDAC USB filter
> 
> http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/short-block


 
  
 I think it does the exact same thing. All it does is sever the +5v line. I use the JCAT USB card and it has jumpers that also allows the same thing. Another reason why I'm sticking with the Breeze DU-U8 because these only work with devices that don't need the initialization. It really makes a considerable audible difference. As you certainly know.


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## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> quote: " in other worlds the power lines are completely severed from the data line..."
> 
> j/k
> 
> ...


 
 Yes. Better rely on listening impressions than on a bunch of scientific explanations. The regen is not always effective and has no galvanic isolation, as far as I can read from the paper on Uptone's site.
  
 The regen is not the safest bet. I doubt it could improve my setup.


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## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> quote: " in other worlds the power lines are completely severed from the data line..."
> 
> j/k
> 
> ...


 

 Hey don't make fun of my awful typing and spelling!  I'm a math guy - just kidding.  In other WORDS what good is this $350 device - when a $40 JB can be easily made into a +5VDC VBUS Blocker - no ground connection at all?  Unless you have a USB cable that is not split, in that case I suggest you get one.  Power the USB from a Li Ion battery or seperate Linear Power Supply - not a SMPS wall wart.  The DXIO uses an ultra low noise femto clock NDK SD to reclock the USB - nothing much better then that.  But it won't survive 2G lateral accerelation 24/7 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 BTW that guy with a Neutron Star clocked Regen is a bit loopy if you ask me.  Just to reclock USB? Why would you do that?  I would have put one of those $400 boards in my DAC or DDC instead.


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## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Anybody have a link to the newest Thesycon 3.29 driver discussed a while back? You can PM me if you have to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yes that's what I think - $199 to do what a pair of snips and a $40 JB can do.  Or one of the better USB PC cards.


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## bimmer100

so does the jitterbug galvanically isolate the power and the data line without losing integrity of the signal?  If one is isolated, thats fine, but the other is still producing noise. true galvanic isolation isn't something that has been done at high speed or full speed.of usb until now. Again, i'm waiting for Daniel's reply. I'm going off dozens of listneing impressions from people who sold their regens, wyrds, jitterbugs etc and kept their itona. I'm intrigued when I hear that. As the regen did NOTHING for my system... maybe this will do nothing too, but I will still try it.
  
 I'm selling my PPA3 and many of my PC components since I'll be getting a LHLabs source. I no longer will be using my PC as an audio source. The PPA3 might be saved for a little mini audio server though.


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## rb2013

Swenson on USB clocking and ground noise.  But the point is REMOVE the PC USB ground from the equation - rather then create some elaboate isolation scheme -  nothing isolates better then a ZERO connection.
  


> *Can you explain how things other than "the bits" could have an effect on the analog output of a DAC?*​ First I’m going to go into some more detail on what I talked about last time, specifically, ramp times. Remember that the jitter caused by the ramp time is a combination of the threshold uncertainty and the ramp time. So it seems at first glance that you can decrease the jitter by having a faster ramp time. Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way.​ The same amount of charge needs to be transferred no matter what the ramp time is. So if it takes one half the time, twice as much current has to flow. This causes the ground plane noise to increase, which increases the threshold uncertainty. Thus decreasing the ramp time doesn’t help.​ "The result is that faster ramp times actually increase jitter."​ It’s actually worse. If you run the “edge” through a Fourier transform (which converts the time domain into a frequency domain) you will see a large amount of very high frequency components. If you decrease the ramp time, those high frequency components increase. When those high frequency currents flow through the inductance in the ground plane they create an even greater voltage drop than already mentioned. The result is that faster ramp times actually increase jitter.​ I covered this in detail to show how what seems obvious at first glance may not actually be true when you start dealing with jitter and ground plane noise.​ *So what about an asynchronous USB interface, isn’t it supposed to completely isolate the DAC from everything? Let’s look in detail at each part of the system and see what affects it.*​ Let’s start with the local oscillator, the “clock”. It turns out that almost all *ultra low jitter oscillators are quite sensitive to ground plane and power supply noise.* As the noise increases the jitter increases, and the spectrum of that extra jitter is directly related to the spectrum of the noise. This phenomenon is well known by many digital designers, so many will use decent low noise regulators with the clocks, but many don’t bother with that step, guaranteeing that the low jitter spec of the oscillator is going to be drastically compromised. Not only do you have to deal with the self generated noise of the regulator, but also its ability to block noise coming in on its input supply. Most regulators are very poor at this for high frequencies. This means that noise generated by the other logic elements on the board is going to sail right on through the regulators used in many DACs, causing jitter in the clock whose spectrum is highly correlated to what the rest of the board is doing. It IS possible to do a good job of providing low noise clean power to the clock, but it’s not easy and the designer really has to work at it.​ And we still haven’t even talked about the ground plane! The noise on the ground plane is just as important to the jitter of the clock, but it doesn’t have a regulator, it just is what it is. If the clock is going to do what it is supposed to do, the ground plane it is connected to HAS to somehow be isolated from the noise generated by other parts of the circuit. I’ll go into this in detail later on.​ So right at the beginning the clock itself is susceptible to influences outside itself in almost all implementations.​ After the clocks (it takes two in most implementations) you need a clock mux, which again creates its own jitter from the ground plane noise caused by the return current going back to the clock. In order to decrease this jitter you need to make the ramp time of the clock slow, but not too slow. The adage here is “just fast enough to work in all circumstances”. That means you usually have to slow down the clock edges. Fortunately this is easy to do by just putting a resistor in series with the output. But just this simple little tweak is not done very often. And what about the mux itself? It needs to have the same treatment. Fortunately the designer has a large choice of possible muxes to choose from, some very fast edges and some very slow. As strange as it may seem frequently the best ones to use are the old slow technologies from decades ago. They lumber along with slow edge rates and internal transistors, creating very small amounts of noise. Since the clocks we are talking about here are very slow by modern standards, these old muxes work very well. But again, not many designers take the time to optimize that.​ "Most modern DAC chips have a lot of stuff inside creating a lot of noise on the internal power and ground traces, which pretty much nullifies that ultra low jitter clock we are sending it."​ Then the clock goes to the DAC chip. Most modern DAC chips have a lot of stuff inside creating a lot of noise on the internal power and ground traces, which pretty much nullifies that ultra low jitter clock we are sending it. This is probably why a large number of people have a hard time hearing differences caused by changes to things such as jitter and noise. The effects caused by them are being swamped by the jitter generated inside the chip.​ *A number of companies are realizing this and are using DAC chips where a lot of this internal processing can be turned off. This significantly cuts down on internal jitter, BUT it also makes it possible for external influences to be more noticeable. So now the jitter on the main clock fed into the DAC chip starts to be quite important since it’s not masked so much.* An analogy might be the noise level in your listening room. Let’s say you have a fan running and you realize that it’s interfering with your enjoyment of the music. So you turn the fan off, expecting perfect quiet. But now you can hear the traffic outside, the kids playing down the street, the dog barking next door etc. Turning the fan off didn’t make these other noise sources louder, but now they are not masked so much and are more annoying. The same thing happens with DACs, as you get rid of one major source of jitter and noise, others now become obvious and they might be harder to get rid of.​ *Next let’s look at the other inputs to the DAC chip, such as the I2S signals. Those signals might have quite a bit of jitter depending on where they come from. Even though the main clock is supposed to be the arbiter of timing, these other inputs can also affect the internal timing. Each one of those signals has a return current back to wherever it came from, creating ground plane noise to the DAC chip. They also create noise on the internal chip traces from the transistors receiving those signals. All of this creates noise the chip sees whose spectrum is related to the spectrum of the jitter on the I2S signals. So not only is jitter on the master clock important, but so is jitter on the I2S signals. This is important to realize, jitter on ALL input signals to the DAC chip can modify the timing internal to the chip.*​ So in order to fix this jitter on the I2S signals we “reclock” them with a flip flop clocked by the master clock. BUT the signals going into the flop also cause ground plane noise with a spectrum related to the jitter on the inputs, AND some of the transistors inside the flop are also switching based on the input signals, adding to the ground plane noise correlated to the “jittery” inputs. So why bother reclocking? It DOES decrease jitter, it just doesn’t eliminate it. If the I2S signals have quite a bit of jitter, the reclocking can cut it down by quite a bit, but there is STILL jitter on the output that is correlated to the input jitter AND there is noise on the ground plane related to the input signals that can influence the clock, clock mux, and DAC chip. So while reclocking can help, it is not a panacea.​ So now the crux of the matter, how can what goes into the USB receiver affect any of this? In several ways: packet jitter, edge jitter, PLLs. I’ll go over each of these.​ P*acket jitter is the difference in the arrival time of packets to the receiver chip. USB packets are transmitted over the bus at either 1000 per second (full speed mode) or 8000 per second (high speed mode). Every time one of those packets hits the receiver a lot of activity happens inside the receiver chip. This creates lots of noise inside the chip and on the ground plane. This causes a lot of jitter on the outputs from the chip. The spectrum of this noise and jitter has a VERY strong component at either 1KHz or 8KHz, both of which are directly in the audio range. Any changes in the arrival time of the packets will change the spectrum of this packet noise. In the next installment I’ll cover what causes this packet jitter.*​ *"As with everything else I have been talking about, jitter on the input can cause noise in the chip and on the ground plane that is related to the spectrum of the jitter. This is where things like different cables can have an effect on what is happening."*​ Next is edge jitter, this is traditional jitter of the individual edges on the bus. As with everything else I have been talking about, jitter on the input can cause noise in the chip and on the ground plane that is related to the spectrum of the jitter. This is where things like different cables can have an effect on what is happening.​ Next is PLLs. Every USB receiver chip has at least one if not more PLLs. These PLLs are affected by both the previous types of jitter and since almost all the circuitry inside the chip is clocked by these PLLs, the jitter on output signals and ground plane noise is going to be significantly affected by the noise spectrum coming out of the PLLs. This is filtered by the PLL loop filter, but there are still major components related to the input jitter.​ *So how do we keep all this noise from the USB receiver from getting to our sensitive DAC circuits? It’s called ground plane isolation. You have separate ground planes for the USB receiver and the rest of the DAC circuitry.* This DOES prevent ground plane noise from crossing over. *BUT if you cut the ground plane there is no way for the return current from the signals crossing the boundary (the I2S signals and clock etc) to get between the “ground domains”. *The solution is digital isolators. There are many different technologies to choose from, one most people are familiar with is opto-couplers. Some of these actually add huge amounts of jitter to the signals going through them so are bad choices for our purposes.​ A signal from the receiver now has a return current coming from the isolator so it’s happy. On the other side of the boundary there is a return current to the DAC circuitry so it is happy. *BUT any jitter on the signal coming out of the isolator is STILL creating ground plane noise with a spectrum related to the jitter it had on the other side of the isolator. In addition it is containing jitter related to the isolation scheme as well, and some of THAT jitter is ALSO related to noise on the ground plane on the receiver side.*​ *So again the ground plane isolation and signal isolators can decrease the jitter and noise going from the USB receiver to the DAC circuits, BUT they cannot eliminate it. Some always gets through.*​ "So why even bother with asynchronous USB? Because it DOES help a lot."​ So why even bother with asynchronous USB? Because it DOES help a lot. With adaptive USB the clock feeding the DAC chip comes out of the USB receiver with all the rather large amount of noise and jitter already discussed. With async the DAC chip clock does come from a local oscillator, so even though it is affected by the noise from the USB receiver through the mechanisms outlined above, it is still WAY better than what you get out of an adaptive receiver.​ You are very much in the scenario I listed above—you have gotten rid of one very large amount of noise, but without it, the affects from other sources are now easily heard. This does not mean the first step was worthless, just not sufficient to completely get rid of it.​ Now for some general observations on existing DACs out there “in the wild”. Everything I have discussed here is known. This is not anything new. BUT the number of designers that are familiar with all of this and know how to deal with it are very few. The result is that DACs that deal well with all of these issues are essentially non-existent. Various designers have implemented parts of this in varying degrees, thus there is going to be a wide variation in how different DACs respond to different influences.​ The upshot is that in the real world of actual DAC implementations there WILL be changes in sound with what is going on outside the DAC box, but it is going to be different for every box, making generalizations about how to make things sound the best, VERY difficult.​
> Read more at http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits#oqRyiCsHJzqPqBUB.99​


----------



## robertsong

rb2013 said:


> I'm going to try these very nice Pannie low impedence high ESR FRs - just ordered from Digikey.
> 
> The Breeze websites call those Pannie green caps XPO Masters - they are really X-PRO Masters - and Ebay is the only place I could find them.  Would love to see the spec sheet.  If they really were Pannies top audio cap they should be readily available.


 
  
 Bob, do you have the part number for these ESR FR's (same diameter I suppose)? Do you still think it's worth it to replace the "X-PRO Masters". Anything better from Nichicon? I'm about to place an order with Mouser. No worries if you don't know the part number. I can figure it out maybe.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> so does the jitterbug galvanically isolate the power and the data line without losing integrity of the signal?  If one is isolated, thats fine, but the other is still producing noise. true galvanic isolation isn't something that has been done at high speed or full speed.of usb until now. Again, i'm waiting for Daniel's reply. I'm going off dozens of listneing impressions from people who sold their regens, wyrds, jitterbugs etc and kept their itona. I'm intrigued when I hear that. As the regen did NOTHING for my system... maybe this will do nothing too, but I will still try it.
> 
> I'm selling my PPA3 and many of my PC components since I'll be getting a LHLabs source. I no longer will be using my PC as an audio source. The PPA3 might be saved for a little mini audio server though.


 

 Not a stock one - but if you open it up and clip the 1 and 4 pins - the power leads - yes completely!  Only the data lines remain.  No ground connection to the USB at all!  If you use a split USB cable and run the power lead to a seperate LPS or Li Ion Battery.
  
 As I have explained there are XMOS DDC's like the U12 and the DXIO that need to see the USB power to activate.  Once activated they no longer need the power leg to remain connected.  At least with the DXIO - even set to ext power.  Not a big deal once playing simply remove the power leg.
  
 Now from what I have read the itona is not made for audio - just some lunnie guy used one there.  It's made for 'Industrial', 'Medical' and maybe 'Military' purposes.  2G lateral forces?  Not your typical audiophile.  The Regen made my main system worse, even with a TeraDak R-Core.
  
 But as I have alwasy said -this is all theory - the proof is in the listening.  So curious to see how it sounds in  your system - thanks for trying one!


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## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Not a stock one - but if you open it up and clip the 1 and 4 pins - the power leads - yes completely!  Only the data lines remain.  No ground connection to the USB at all!  If you use a split USB cable and run the power lead to a seperate LPS or Li Ion Battery.


 
 I understand you have modified your JB,but was asking how your data line is galvanically isolated as well? it's not. 
  
 This device is unique, and I'm going to give it a shot. As I believe there is much more to it than you're willing to give it credit.
  
 quote from that article 
  
 "So in order to fix this jitter on the I2S signals we “reclock” them with a flip flop clocked by the master clock. BUT the signals going into the flop also cause ground plane noise with a spectrum related to the jitter on the inputs, AND some of the transistors inside the flop are also switching based on the input signals, adding to the ground plane noise correlated to the “jittery” inputs. So why bother reclocking? It DOES decrease jitter, it just doesn’t eliminate it. If the I2S signals have quite a bit of jitter, the reclocking can cut it down by quite a bit, but there is STILL jitter on the output that is correlated to the input jitter AND there is noise on the ground plane related to the input signals that can influence the clock, clock mux, and DAC chip. So while reclocking can help, it is not a panacea."
 Read more at http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits#C7GFxLBvGHhWaHjK.99


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Bob, do you have the part number for these ESR FR's (same diameter I suppose)? Do you still think it's worth it to replace the "X-PRO Masters". Anything better from Nichicon? I'm about to place an order with Mouser. No worries if you don't know the part number. I can figure it out maybe.


 

 I have back burnered the Breeze mods as the DXIO is proving so successful.  I want to recap the DC-30W first.  I full out 'blown away' by what the DXIO is doing in my system.
  
 Just ordered a second once that arrives I can lend one to my friend (who sent me the PUC2 Lite) and get modding the Breeze.
  
 Here are the caps - the FR's are equiv to the Nichicon HW 's in low low impedance and high ESR.
 They are 16V 2200uf these should work:
 http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/EEU-FR1C222/P14402-ND/2433536
  
 The Pannie FR's are also rated to 10,000hrs and 105c - the best I have seen in a 'lytic


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## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Hey don't make fun of my awful typing and spelling!  I'm a math guy - just kidding.  In other WORDS what good is this $350 device - when a $40 JB can be easily made into a +5VDC VBUS Blocker - no ground connection at all?  Unless you have a USB cable that is not split, in that case I suggest you get one.  Power the USB from a Li Ion battery or seperate Linear Power Supply - not a SMPS wall wart.  The DXIO uses an ultra low noise femto clock NDK SD to reclock the USB - nothing much better then that.  But it won't survive 2G lateral accerelation 24/7
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You still have the signal ground which is possibly the same or possibly contaminated anyway.


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## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Not a stock one - but if you open it up and clip the 1 and 4 pins - the power leads - yes completely!  Only the data lines remain.  No ground connection to the USB at all!  If you use a split USB cable and run the power lead to a seperate LPS or Li Ion Battery.
> 
> As I have explained there are XMOS DDC's like the U12 and the DXIO that need to see the USB power to activate.  Once activated they no longer need the power leg to remain connected.  At least with the DXIO - even set to ext power.  Not a big deal once playing simply remove the power leg.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm just another "lunnie" guy who is going to try one.  Itona has a full blown audio lab to test their device and they are not just some small company like Uptone. As their front page says "Intona is an electronics engineering company based in Germany. For more than 15 years we deliver highly professional signal processing solutions to the industry world wide. Our deep knowledge in high speed signalling and in field programming gate arrays enabled us to come up with our latest development: the world's first high speed USB isolator."
  
  
 anyhow, I may invite Daniel to post on this thread to answer some of our questions. I want to know answers too.  But I understand they have a full blown audio lab and do extensive testing on their products.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I understand you have modified your JB,but was asking how your data line is galvanically isolated as well? it's not.
> 
> This device is unique, and I'm going to give it a shot. As I believe there is much more to it than you're willing to give it credit.
> 
> ...


 

 The data line is gavanically isolated - the ground line is cut!  There is no connection to USB ground - doesn't get any more isolated then that.  Now are you speaking of Swenson's intermodulated 'packet noise' inbedded in the data feed?  I don't see how the isotoner fixes that.  Even Swenson admits the Regen doesn't either.


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## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I'm just another "lunnie" guy who is going to try one.  Itona has a full blown audio lab to test their device and they are not just some small company like Uptone. As their front page says "Intona is an electronics engineering company based in Germany. For more than 15 years we deliver highly professional signal processing solutions to the industry world wide. Our deep knowledge in high speed signalling and in field programming gate arrays enabled us to come up with our latest development: the world's first high speed USB isolator."
> 
> 
> anyhow, I may invite Daniel to post on this thread to answer some of our questions. I want to know answers too.  But I understand they have a full blown audio lab and do extensive testing on their products.


 

 Cheers to that!  Would love to get Swenson to debate him - 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Much for all of us to learn... I understand they are a German engineering company - but so is Yellowtec.  And I'm pretty sure Steve Nugent at Emperical has 'a full blown audio lab' and Uptone as well.  Is there a running thread at CA on this miracle device?  I believe that's where the unbelievable Regen claims came from.  You should read those early thread posts.
  
 But I can't completely disagree as the Regen/LPS made a nice improvement in my office system.


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## abartels

> > abartels said:
> >
> >
> > > Btw, did you guys heard of, and maybe demoed Acoustic Revive RR-777 / RR-888
> ...


 
  
  
 Just build the Schumann resonator, first listening test is disappointing, no difference at full power, at 7m listening position from my speakers with SR at 2m hight in-between speakers,
 but also no difference when SR is sitting next to me on the couch 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Will test more this week, but for now it's getting a no go for me.
  
 Regards,
  
 Alex


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## rb2013

Swenson on packet noise intermodulation in the data feed:
  


> When that XMOS chip is dealing with data from the host *it is generating its own noise on the PG planes*, part of the noise will be from the PHY and part from the MAC. The PHY part can change due to SI of the USB signal,* the rest cannot, it stays the same*. *If separate ground planes and separate power supplies are not used, that noise can directly affect the **DAC chip(s) and the master clock oscillator. As was posted from a previous post of mine, even if separate supplies and planes are used with isolation between them, the effects of this noise still winds up at the DAC chip and clock.*
> 
> The part of this noise not from the PHY is always there, it doesn't matter what your cable is, what USB card you have, whether you have a REGEN etc, it's still there. All that stuff is keeping the PHY part from ADDING extra noise that makes things worse.
> 
> ...


 


> What I have been finding in looking at DACs etc with USB inputs is that there is what I am calling "packet noise". This is bursts of noise caused by the USB receiver processing the packets of data. This noise shows up on both power and ground planes. Since the rate of packets is 8KHz there are strong components of this noise in the audio band. This noise can cause jitter in clock oscillators, reclocking flops, and DAC chips. It can also go directly into noise on the output of DAC chips.
> 
> The question everybody asks then is: well what about the DACs that have full isolation between the USB system and reclocking on the DAC side? *Unfortunately this noise likes to make it through even this. Exactly how this works is complicated, I have written about this in the **AudioStream articles. And bits and pieces in other posts recently. The upshot is that neither galvanic isolation nor reclocking completely get rid of it. They help attenuate it some, but don't get rid of it.*
> 
> ...


----------



## rb2013

BTW High Speed USB Galvanic isolators have been around for a long time on Ebay:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Galvanic-Signal-Insulator-USB-Digital-Isolator-Isolation-Ground-Noise-A30-/221721409261?hash=item339fa036ed:g:rG0AAOSwNSxVXMMr


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> BTW High Speed USB Galvanic isolators have been around for a long time on Ebay:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Galvanic-Signal-Insulator-USB-Digital-Isolator-Isolation-Ground-Noise-A30-/221721409261?hash=item339fa036ed:g:rG0AAOSwNSxVXMMr


 
 that's not high speed... thats (low speed) 1.5mbps to (full speed) 12mbps. thats typical for isolators as none have been able to be full high speed (480mbps) usb until the itona. At high speed the SI or signal integrity is so good that the noise created within the dac from the PHY chip is minimal to nothing and galvanically isolated on data and power, what more can you ask for? the Uptone Regen Amber could not achieve this. It tried, and did "ok".  and some other company claiming to have made one but never released it... Silanna 
 http://www.silanna.com/usb.html
 i don't know a lot about Silanna, but it has been mentioned in the Intona threads out there. Not as complex as the Intona. What throws me off is the outward appearance of the Itona... it would look so much better in a nice case, at least black plastic...but with it's current look, it would match nicely with this...
  

 they remind me of an old modem


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> that's not high speed... thats (low speed) 1.5mbps to (full speed) 12mbps. thats typical for isolators as none have been able to be full high speed (480mbs) usb until the itona. At high speed the SI or signal integrity is so good that the noise created within the dac from the PHY chip is minimal to nothing and galvanically isolated on data and power, what more can you ask for? the Uptone Regen Amber could not achieve this. It tried, and did "ok".  and some other company claiming to have made one but never released it... Silanna
> http://www.silanna.com/usb.html
> i don't know a lot about Silanna, but it has been mentioned in the Intona threads out there. Not as complex as the Intona. What throws me off is the outward appearance of the Itona... it would look so much better in a nice case, at least black plastic...but with it's current look, it would match nicely with this...


 

 If you read the Ebay ad it pretty clearly states "Support for High Speed USB and Low Speed USB, The product's default isloation scheme is High Speed".
  
 Just because it supports Low Speed USB  -  doesn't mean IT IS  Low Speed. $34 plus shipping
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Galvanic-Signal-Insulator-USB-Digital-Isolator-Isolation-Ground-Noise-A30-/221721409261?hash=item339fa036ed:g:rG0AAOSwNSxVXMMr
  
 There will be very little PHY noise in the DAC if all the USB PHY processing is done in an external USB Bridge - what this thread has been all about.  A separate USB Bridge on it's own AC isolated line.  A USB Bridge with much attention to internal noise regulation - Breeze, DXIO, etc...
  
 This device might help those using a DAC with a built in USB board - and running a non-split USB cable - with no VBUS blocker.  There I could see a major performance improvement.


----------



## bimmer100

It clearly states the speeds.... that's the problem with galvanic isolation... the highest available is 12mbps
 you think a 34 dollar isolator would support high speed, they market it with misleading words like high speed, when it's only 12mbps.
  
 check out silanna's website. they make something similar to intona, but not quite as good.
  
 http://www.silanna.com/usb.html
 Low speed (LS - 1.5 Mbps), full speed (FS - 12 Mbps), and high speed (HS - 480 Mbps)
  
  
  
 the specs of this el cheapo isolator say on the second check point it's supported speeds. that is low and full speed for typical galvanic isolators.  they mislead customers by calling it high speed, when in fact it's not usb 480mbps.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> It clearly states the speeds.... that's the problem with galvanic isolation... the highest available is 12mbps
> you think a 34 dollar isolator would support high speed, they market it with misleading words like high speed, when it's only 12mbps.
> 
> check out silanna's website. they make something similar to intona, but not quite as good.
> ...


 

 Well it states 'High Speed' further down - but you are right on the second line.  I'll ask them.  Maybe worth $34 to try out.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Well it states 'High Speed' further down - but you are right on the second line.  I'll ask them.  Maybe worth $34 to try out.


 
 100% guarantee you should save your money. 
  
 I'm writing Daniel about a lot of this stuff and will get answers from people who know better. But I read a lot about typical galvanic isolators. I'm trying to get you to sway just a tiny bit to see that the Intona is actually something unique. SO....when I get one, i'll let you try it out too.
  
  
 on a side note: this Intona is designed for broadcast and studio use. So industrial level for extremely high end audio/video etc etc. must be very high spec for all their clients.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> 100% guarantee you should save your money.
> 
> I'm writing Daniel about a lot of this stuff and will get answers from people who know better. But I read a lot about typical galvanic isolators. I'm trying to get you to sway just a tiny bit to see that the Intona is actually something unique. SO....when I get one, i'll let you try it out too.


 

 Sorry for my skepticism - but after reading all the hoopla on the Regen - I'm very skeptical.  Although the Regen/LPs does work nicely on my office system.  So I think all these USB gizmos are system dependent.  Even the Jitterbugs which work great on the DXIO and Breeze - were a major fail on the PUC2 Lite.
  
 There will be very little PHY noise in the DAC if all the USB PHY processing is done in an external USB Bridge - what this thread has been all about.  A separate USB Bridge on it's own AC isolated line.  A USB Bridge with much attention to internal noise regulation - Breeze, DXIO, etc...
  
 This device might help those using a DAC with a built in USB board - and running a non-split USB cable - with no VBUS blocker.  There I could see a major performance improvement.


----------



## rb2013

I posted this before the intona discussion (all great stuff) so back to USB bridges: "OK After a long listening session with the PUC2 last night (no JB's - they just made it to woolly on my main system) and USB power I have a greater understanding of the sound difference to the DXIO/DC-30W/Cerious/JBs.
  
 The PUC2 Lite is definitely darker in character - this may benefit some systems. Less detail and air.  A tad more bass, but not nearly as well defined.  But here is the BIG difference - the imaging and realism.  When listening to the PUC2 it sounded great - sweet, rich in tone, fun.  I felt I was listening to a great stereo presentation.  But something was missing.
  
 Putting the DXIO/DC-30W/Cerious - no JB's - back in I found the tone just a little to thin - but putting the JB's back in absolutely perfect in pitch and tonal color.  But the big thing for me was the presentation.  With the DXIO system in place the music swept around my listening chair into the back corners of the room and behind me.  The presentation was total immersion.  NOT the feeling of listening to a great stereo - but being at a Live concert.  You feel you are part of the 'Musical Event' - the presence of the performers life sized and spooky real.  The 3D Holographic nature never more spellbinding then what I'm hearing now.  You just get captured by the performance - excited to hear the next musical treat to be presented.  The overdrive guitar in the left part of the sound field - bells hanging in space towards the right - real as I have ever heard - the Singer center stage a spot light turned on.  Seeming to be a real presence in the room.  Every nuanced detail gracefully there.  Emotionally connected - live in all senses but visual.  The dimensions of the recorded venue superseding the actual dimensions of my listening room.
 Mesmerized I'm frozen for the entire album. 
  
 That is truly an extraordinary feat for any stereo system.  How can a two speaker (albeit 5ft tall panels) sound like a 5.1 surround sound  - I haven't the foggiest idea.  It's auditory magic.
  
 One other thing about the DXIO system - the way that the bass and mid-bass notes - they seem to emanate from the stage then sweep over you in a tactile way.  A hearing/feeling sensation.  Bass peddles and any lower octave syns - sweep over you then fill the entire room into the deep corners behind you.  A uniform layer - you embedded in the middle.  What a trip.
  
 Will try the X1 TeraDak on the PUC2 tonight - but have decided to order a second DXIO this morning.  I just can't see the LPS making enough of a difference."


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Sorry for my skepticism - but after reading all the hoopla on the Regen - I'm very skeptical.  Although the Regen/LPs does work nicely on my office system.  So I think all these USB gizmos are system dependent.  Even the Jitterbugs which work great on the DXIO and Breeze - were a major fail on the PUC2 Lite.
> 
> There will be very little PHY noise in the DAC if all the USB PHY processing is done in an external USB Bridge - what this thread has been all about.  A separate USB Bridge on it's own AC isolated line.  A USB Bridge with much attention to internal noise regulation - Breeze, DXIO, etc...
> 
> This device might help those using a DAC with a built in USB board - and running a non-split USB cable - with no VBUS blocker.  There I could see a major performance improvement.


 
  
 I still have a different idea of what advantage it would have in any system....
 but we will just have to "hear" for ourselves. right? that's the ultimate test.


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> It clearly states the speeds.... that's the problem with galvanic isolation... the highest available is 12mbps
> you think a 34 dollar isolator would support high speed, they market it with misleading words like high speed, when it's only 12mbps.
> 
> check out silanna's website. they make something similar to intona, but not quite as good.
> ...


 
 Galvanic isolation  is not a simple challenge with some data protocol, including usb. For SPDIF, an isolation transfo can be used. For i2s, you need special components as well.
  
 And RB2013, it is not as simple as cutting a wire. Way more complex.
  
 That is why the 480 mebabit usb devices are a rarity. This is mentioned in the technical info of the Schiit Wyrd: at the time they designed this piece of equipement, usb isolation was not possible at 480 megabit per second.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I posted this before the intona discussion (all great stuff) so back to USB bridges: "OK After a long listening session with the PUC2 last night (no JB's - they just made it to woolly on my main system) and USB power I have a greater understanding of the sound difference to the DXIO/DC-30W/Cerious/JBs.
> 
> The PUC2 Lite is definitely darker in character - this may benefit some systems. Less detail and air.  A tad more bass, but not nearly as well defined.  But here is the BIG difference - the imaging and realism.  When listening to the PUC2 it sounded great - sweet, rich in tone, fun.  I felt I was listening to a great stereo presentation.  But something was missing.
> 
> ...




Great reporting. Question, it the dxio better than the breeze without external supply?


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I still have a different idea of what advantage it would have in any system....
> but we will just have to "hear" for ourselves. right? that's the ultimate test.


 

 All these 'Industrial' USB isolators  - the Intona included are not made for audio (hence no need for a fancy eye candy case).  They are made to protect expensive and mission critical medical, industrial control and military equipment from voltage surges caused by shorts, power surges - even EMP attacks.  If you look at the Intona listing they have two versions one with 1kV isolation and the other with 2.5kV isolation.  Unless you plan connecting your USB DDC to a lightning rod you don't need that kind of protection.  USB is very difficult to protect from  voltage surges (not like MOV's on AC lines) and pass through a high speed high SI connection and provide a 2500 volt isolation.  That is what they are designed to do.  Most of the voltage exposure is, of course, on the power leads - not the data leads - unless the voltage short or surge is so great it arcs across the air into those lines.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Galvanic isolation  is not a simple challenge with some data protocol, including usb. For SPDIF, an isolation transfo can be used. For i2s, you need special components as well.
> 
> And RB2013, it is not as simple as cutting a wire. Way more complex.
> 
> That is why the 480 mebabit usb devices are a rarity. This is mentioned in the technical info of the Schiit Wyrd: at the time they designed this piece of equipement, usb isolation was not possible at 480 megabit per second.


 

 But that is not what these are made for (see my above post).  They are designed to from their website:


> Applications
> Industrial automation systems
> Measurement devices
> Environments requiring safety insulation
> ...


 
 It is that simple as dissconnecting the USB PC power lead and ground lead from the equation.  The two remaining data leads are data in and for Aysn USB error correction signal out - that's it.  Now if you are worried about ground contamination of the data feed on the PC's USB board BUS - then a PPA card is the way to go.
  
 Your talking of spending alot of money to solve a problem they were not designed intentionly for, or may not work, as Swenson clearly points out in the quote I put up earlier today.  But I'm sure the guys who make them would gladly take your $325.
  
 To address your mention of SPDIF -this device does nothing to solve that as well -there are Murata transformers in the DDC and DAC that address that.  As for isolating i2s  - I guess your are saying this isolated that?


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Great reporting. Question, it the dxio better than the breeze without external supply?


 

 I guess you mean the the TeraDak LPS - no.  The total package of the DXIO, TeraDak DC-30w, Cerious power cord, two Jitterbugs (one modded into a VBUS blocker) is double that of the Breeze/Cerious.  Around $625 vs $375.  So the Breeze is an outstanding audio bargain - and is easier to use and set-up.
  
 But what I'm talking about in terms of performance on the DXIOpackage is nothing short of amazing.  I find it hard to believe that it can be beat.


----------



## rb2013

Looking closer at the Intona USB Isolator - a couple of notes.
  
 PC USB power to the clocks - no choice of external power supply.
  
 Clocks are SiTime MEMS - SiTime chooses to not publish phase noise measures in the std -db by frequency like NDK and Cyrstek - and SiTime for their crystal based oscillators.  Must not measure very well.
  
 They do publish drift and stability measures = 20+-ppm.  The std TXCO clocks in the Breeze or Gustard are 0.1ppm clocks.
  
 On page 9 of their whitepaper they have a graft of Price vs Performance - these CMOS based MEMS clocks are cheap and have the worst performance of the SiTime lineup - vs their crystal clocks (which by the way do not come close to ultra low phase noise of the NDK SD or Crystek CCHD-957's).  Worse then even the XO's in the Regen.
 http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/cmems-oscillator-architecture.pdf
  
 So it looks like you have cheap noisy clocks on both sides of the galvanic isolation - powered by the dirty PC USB power supply.
 They were chosen, it looks like for another reason, crystals can not stand up to 2G lateral forces 24/7.  They also mention high temperature ability. These must have been one of the main design criteria - probably from a major industrial or military buyer.
  
 Why would this matter to an audiophile if this was designed for audio as he is quoted saying:


> Then the quality of the crystal oscillator is important too. Are you using, say, Crystek oscillators?
> It is a SiLabs MEMS oscillator, with measured Jitter around 2ps. This is, because *1. we have some customers that need mechanicly rugged hardware because they use our isolators at repeated >2g acceleration 24h/7d - crystals will fail her*e - and 2. power consumption of MEMS is 1/10 of crystals. As all voltage regulators are linear in the isolator, we had to pay attention to overall efficiency.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> But that is not what these are made for (see my above post).  They are designed to fro their website:
> It is that simple as dissconnecting the USB PC power lead and ground lead from the equation.  The two remaining data leads are data in and for Aysn USB error correction signal out - that's it.  Now if you are worried about ground contamination of the data feed on the PC's USB board - then a PPA card is the way to go.
> 
> Your talking of spending alot of money to solve a problem they were not designed intentionly for, or may not work, as Swenson clearly points out in the quote I put up earlier today.  But I'm sure the guys who make them would gladly take your $325.
> ...






rb2013 said:


> But that is not what these are made for (see my above post).  They are designed to fro their website:
> It is that simple as dissconnecting the USB PC power lead and ground lead from the equation.  The two remaining data leads are data in and for Aysn USB error correction signal out - that's it.  Now if you are worried about ground contamination of the data feed on the PC's USB board - then a PPA card is the way to go.
> 
> Your talking of spending alot of money to solve a problem they were not designed intentionly for, or may not work, as Swenson clearly points out in the quote I put up earlier today.  But I'm sure the guys who make them would gladly take your $325.
> ...




No, i am not saying that the Intona do the isolation with i2s, of course not.

You are right for the most part. You can break a ground loop by cutting the ground lead. I should try this, the way my equipment is connected, it should be beneficial. And there will always be common noise between 5v and ground. So both leads should polluted more or less equally exiting the wyrd or pc. So you are right again, the best is to cut both if the equipment allows it. I will try it with a usb cable i don't care about and see for myself, and then order the 2g if it seems to work. Thanks for this tip, took me time to understand.

But it is always a good thing to redo the signal and make it cleaner. It is better than just applying some filtering like the JBs do. Because common noise can get lower starting from a cleaner ground source (it matters because not all common noise is rejected by the receiver). That is why i plug my mini through the apc h15, since it provide an isolation transformer besides lc filtering, to keep the ground as clean as possible for the other powerbar.

And besides, where there is a misunderstanding, it's in the fact that just cutting power leads and repeating the signal is NOT galvanic isolation, by definition. You cannot claim galvanic isolation as they do if something else is not done.

So to recap, it is most certainly useful to get a cleaner usb signal and cut the power leads if equipement allows. And if that is, for the most part, what the Intona does, so they are certainly on the right track, although not intendedly for audio. If they really provide galvanic isolation as they claim, my question is what more good will it bring? Avoid complex electrical interactions in the chain that could somehow pollute the signal? That is hard one to guess or understand. The 2 basic justifications for galvanic isolation are to break ground loops and reject common noise. There must be something else and if so, bimmer100 should be able to hear the effects of it, hopefully.

Hope this makes sense to you.


----------



## robertsong

freda said:


> Great reporting. Question, it the dxio better than the breeze without external supply?


 
  
  
 IMO, the only way to know this for sure is to try both of them yourself. 
  
 I had my DXIO for about 5 days before I returned it. I was leaning towards the DXIO, but I could only run it off USB power and couldn't get (4X) sample rates to work at all. Yes, this was the "new" version with the manual switch.
  
 The DXIO sounds like no other DDC I have tried. Totally different sounding than the DU-U8, but both were winners for me and for a bargain price. Of course, I did not get to use it with my LPS (got slight crackling distortion) or top-tier power cord, so maybe if I did I would pick the DXIO as the clear all around winner.
  
 After I sent the DXIO back, I put the Breeze back in and discovered I could easily live with it ( with my Vinnie Rossi LIO). It has the type of sound I was originally looking for.... darker, richer and fuller.
  
 Naturally, opinions will vary.
  
 -----------------------------------
  
 Here's what I would like to know:
 Am I only other person to have used the DXIO??  I'm curious to hear if anybody had the same issues that I did. DIYINHK guessed my unit was defective, but I don't know this for sure.


----------



## robertsong

Personally I would like to see DIYINHK improve the DXIO even more, or maybe offer a more expensive premium version (better case, better switch, better noise isolation/shielding, etc). And I wish they would make a version that does not require initialization like the Breeze does, but that may be wishful thinking. I'm guessing one of their design goals was to make it as affordable as possible. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on their website in the future.


----------



## FredA

robertsong said:


> Personally I would like to see DIYINHK improve the DXIO even more, or maybe offer a more expensive premium version (better case, better switch, better noise isolation/shielding, etc). And I wish they would make a version that does not require initialization like the Breeze does, but that may be wishful thinking. I'm guessing one of their design goals was to make it as affordable as possible. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on their website in the future.




I would lean towards an improved breeze, since it matches very well with my system. Add those fancy clocks, better caps, keep rj45 i2s and add hdmi i2s, use an r-core transfo and a better processor, one that could do 1000 mips. Raise the cost by about 100$. Make a separate compartment for the transfo.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> No, i am not saying that the Intona do the isolation with i2s, of course not.
> 
> You are right for the most part. You can break a ground loop by cutting the ground lead. I should try this, the way my equipment is connected, it should be beneficial. And there will always be common noise between 5v and ground. So both leads should polluted more or less equally exiting the wyrd or pc. So you are right again, the best is to cut both if the equipment allows it. I will try it with a usb cable i don't care about and see for myself, and then order the 2g if it seems to work. Thanks for this tip, took me time to understand.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes that does make sense - thanks for your explanation on this.  And the proof is in the listening!  My motto - as much as I love debating theory.
  
 But for the same money maybe a PPA OXCO card is a wiser investment - although it is not galvanicly isolated it does remove the USB connection from the PC USB Bus - and reclocks with a sota OXCO -although a bit more expensive at $429.
  
 http://ppaproduct.blogspot.tw/2013/07/audio-grade-usb-30-pcie-card.html

  
 Galvanic isolation can be achieved in another way - that is with a Corning Optical USB cable.  I have heard great things about this cable and it is reasonable in cost.
  
 http://www.corning.com/opcomm/OpticalCablesbyCorning/products/USB-3.Optical.aspx#.Vp8Dhx0mw4s
  
 This cable galvanicly isolates the USB from the PC BUS by using built in optical to electrical converters - like a SPIDF optical cable.  And we all know that SPDIF optical is truly galvanicly isolated.
  


> USB 3.Optical™ Cables by Corning connects computers and devices at incredible speed and over longer distances. They’re thin, light and remarkably tough — Optical Cables by Corning can be bent, squeezed, and tangled.
> Connection Diagram
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Now by using a VBUS Blocker to sever the power and ground lines the Corning Optical USB will galvanicly isolate the data lines.


> Do USB 3.Optical™ Cables by Corning contain copper conductors?  Yes, two copper conductors transmit power from the host for the optical to electrical conversion and back again. All data is transmitted over the optical fibers.


 
 It also has the advantage of eliminating any RFI/EMI on the USB copper data lines - as they're glass fiber and immune to RFI/EMI.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Optical-Cables-Corning-Cable-Meter/dp/B00JOJRF6K/ref=sr_1_1/190-3550256-8528539?ie=UTF8&qid=1453262157&sr=8-1&keywords=optical+thunderbolt+cables+by+Corning


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> IMO, the only way to know this for sure is to try both of them yourself.
> 
> I had my DXIO for about 5 days before I returned it. I was leaning towards the DXIO, but I could only run it off USB power and couldn't get (4X) sample rates to work at all. Yes, this was the "new" version with the manual switch.
> 
> ...


 
 The DXIO uses the 3.2 Thesycon drivers - so it doesn't appear to work with my JPlay 6.2.  With JPLay out of the equation - absolutely no troubles with 192k and 176k files - nto a single lock up or hang up.  And now ultra low latency with the darn JPlay gone.  The DXIO does not like voltage over 5.25 VDC - and prefers 5.05 VDC - so possibly your LPS was set higher?  You might really like the PUC2 Lite - it's darker then the DXIO - in the Breeze camp (maybe darker then the Breeze).
  


robertsong said:


> Personally I would like to see DIYINHK improve the DXIO even more, or maybe offer a more expensive premium version (better case, better switch, better noise isolation/shielding, etc). And I wish they would make a version that does not require initialization like the Breeze does, but that may be wishful thinking. I'm guessing one of their design goals was to make it as affordable as possible. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on their website in the future.


 
 They have runs of production - when the old one was gone it was some time before the new one was offered.  That is the reason I ordered a second one today.  Whenthey run out it'll likely be awhile before they're available again.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Yes that does make sense - thanks for you explaination on this.  And the proof is in the listening!  My motto - as much as I love debating theory.
> 
> But for the same money maybe a PPA OXCO card is a wiser investment - although it is not galvanicly isolated it does remove the USB connection from the PC USB Bus - and reclocks with a sota OXCO -although a bit more expensive at $429.
> 
> ...




I would be tempted to try it following the wyrd. This corning cable must not do much cleaning, but the combination of both, including a JB downstram means 3 stages of isolation/filtering. Tempting, very tempting for my setup, which i already like very much. This includes the sacred galvanic isolation. In fact, the description you made of the way your dxio images rang some bells to me. Nina Simone was in my place last night. If i can improve on that, it's gonna start to be frightening.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I would be tempted to try it following the wyrd. This corning cable must not do much cleaning, but the combination of both, including a JB downstram means 3 stages of isolation/filtering. Tempting, very tempting for my setup, which i already like very much. This includes the sacred galvanic isolation. In fact, the description you made of the way your dxio images rang some bells to me. Nina Simone was in my place last night. If i can improve on that, it's gonna start to be frightening.


 
 I was thinking a PPA OXCO to the Corning to a JB (modded VBUS Blocker) then a 2G to the DXIO.
  
 So you have the PPA running on the PCI BUS - OXCO clocking the PC USB - the Corning adding data line isolation through the Electrical to Optical conversion - the VBUS blocker severing the copper power and ground lines.  Finally the 2G data only line to the DXIO.  The power leg of the 2g just used to start playing, plugging into a reg USB port, then unplugged for listening.
 Cheers to that!


----------



## FredA

freda said:


> I would be tempted to try it following the wyrd. This corning cable must not do much cleaning, but the combination of both, including a JB downstram means 3 stages of isolation/filtering. Tempting, very tempting for my setup, which i already like very much. This includes the sacred galvanic isolation. In fact, the description you made of the way your dxio images rang some bells to me. Nina Simone was in my place last night. If i can improve on that, it's gonna start to be frightening.




But again,10 meters! A bit crazy. And will it work with a wyrd?

Plus there are rave reviews all over the net about the Intona. Those people cannot all be wrong. But the corning sure is affordable.


----------



## FredA

freda said:


> But again,10 meters! A bit crazy. And will it work with a wyrd?
> 
> Plus there are rave reviews all over the net about the Intona. Those people cannot all be wrong. But the corning sure is affordable.




I just remembered the weak point of the corning cable: it carries power all the way through. Cannot use the receiving end's power to do the final conversion. Not possible i assume with usb. Seems to compromise galvanic isolation.

Intona is still the best bet for me. With a mac mini, i cannot easilly switch usb card. I have to use an external device.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I was thinking a PPA OXCO to the Corning to a JB (modded VBUS Blocker) then a 2G to the DXIO.
> 
> So you have the PPA running on the PCI BUS - OXCO clocking the PC USB - the Corning adding data line isolation through the Electrical to Optical conversion - the VBUS blocker severing the copper power and ground lines.  Finally the 2G data only line to the DXIO.  The power leg of the 2g just used to start playing, plugging into a reg USB port, then unplugged for listening.
> 
> Cheers to that!




Yeah. Not bad but still no real galvanic isolation! If one could draw the power from the receiver, than it would be perfect. The real point with this product is to extend the range of a usb connection. 

Got the solution: cut the vbus and plug a quality psu at the receiving end. Bingo!


----------



## bimmer100

The intona's crystals are for clocking try fpga and USB timing. Not audio. So why bother with audio clocks? That's not apples to apples...
Not relevant in the same way. It's not a Dac, it's not a DDC. It's a noise eliminator on steroids. What clocks do the jitterbug use, who cares , it's not a Dac or DDC. Does not deal with audio. And the intona is made for a broad range of applications yet for professional studio use. Audio is a big part lf it. They specifically have been working with the audio community to better their product. So give them a chance before you do a review on a product you have not even tried. The reviews are all positive. Except serial#1 of the intona. Otherwise they are reviews that simply are amazing and dramatic differences for people. A real achievement that has been made in USB high speed connectivity for the first time. We don't fully understand it now, but does it not intrigue you and strike your interest? I own the ppa3 ocxo and it was worth the money imho, and I try a lot of new gear and put it to the tests my hearing is quite sensitive and I will report what I hear on my system and a few other people's systems. Including a known laptop with dirty power issues. A wyrd, regen, jitterbug etc have not been able to fix this particular laptop or cure it of its noise issues 100%, it's still there.. Only subtle improvements and notable ones. But nothing ground breaking 

I Personally have done many many hours of research on the intona and its technology. I'm quite intrigued and will definitely put it to the test. My system is about as clean as clean power gets. No joke. 
specs on the regulators ... adp125
http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/ADP124_125.pdf

Daniel says the intona is around 60uV noise for the USB regulators. Not amazing but very very very good compared to any DDC anyone has tested. When we are down to uV ratings, it's simply excellent. Seriously. 
And the SiLabs clocks are rated with super super low jitter spec of 2ps. Better than most USB clocks. The best so far are in the dxio pro3a as they chose 48mhz clocks instead of 24mhz. They have even better jitter reduction that typical 24mhz clocks. So forget about audio clocks, it's simply not as critical. But moreso the SI or signal integrity is most important. The less the PHY chip works, the less noise the Dac makes. High speed USB has incredibly high SI. So the PHY doesn't have to turn on, so... No noise in the Dac. Schiit has been trying to do this.. Failed as it wasn't possible at the time, Uptone audio regen tried to do it, they did better with some workarounds but still... No where near the level of intonas true high speed USB galvanic isolation. I guess I'm one of the few that find it impressive. Maybe Fred is impressed to. But we are no longer talking about dacs and ddc's. But the very heart of the communication that goes on to feed these devices. Intona specializes in this very thing. Dac manufacturers, DDC manufacturers are great at what they do but poor at implementing USB in the purist of forms. So what's wrong with intona having a place in the audio world? If their USB tech can help our audio gear communicate with purity? Would this be welcome? It's not to the same understanding of other audio gear. Many manufacturers hate USB and you have to admit USB is really the one source that is super finicky... Why is this? I'm hoping intona really has USB nailed and sets a foundation for our super high performance ddc's with incredibly low noise regulators and tight spec'd clocks to truly be able to function at their best. 

Just a few thoughts in my head. I'm skeptical, just a little bit. But gut feeling tells me it's well worth trying it out and seeing for myself. I did this with the ppa3 ocxo and was quite happy. Again with the p300 a/c regen, very happy, again with super high grade linear power from teddy Pardo and then steps up to Paul Hynes sr3. Well... I have these ultra tight regulators from belleson with 110db pssr and 5uv, surely they will make my u12 perform very well. They make the dexa newclassd look silly And that regulator made quite a diff in the u12. My u12 doesn't sound stock. 
Anyhow. Just thoughts.
I'm happy either way. Mostly when I just get to sit back and enjoy the music. This gear hobby is just a side thing I enjoy. And love sharing with Others

Worst case scenario you can laugh at me and assume I am wasting my money. But I really am saving some of you guys some money by trying his gear out and getting entertainment out of testing this gear. I'm buying some of it on recommendation from rb2013. The audio sensibilit silver se, curious graphene, breeze to name a few. I don't even like coax as it doesn't sound as good as i2s HDMI, and will later show proof in the pudding: but coax is def better than optical in most cases. Funny as optical is galvanicaly isolated. Except those silly Corning cables. Sure those caught on but after further testing many found them to be a downgrade from many USB cables. I will have to find the links to those claims. But know I'm not making this up. They would sell like crazy otherwise. The concept seems interesting at best. 

Linear power is good, but even the teradak's don't measure well in comparison to teddy Pardo and Paul Hynes. They are cheaply linear power. I will get some real specs when I next go over to atomicbobs and get some numbers. I know the dc30w is better than the X1/x2 of course. But still only "low noise" likely around 2-8mv is my estimates. I highly doubt they would get into the Microvolt noise levels like the higher end linear power supply's and the small regulators. Maybe upgrade the dc30w with a belleson regulator? Get some impressive 5uV noise levels and get some seriously good results. Sensitive crystals like the NDK's and crysteks will give you those wonderful specs shown on their comparison charts. It's not likely you will get those with "low noise" linear power supply. I know the ppa3 ocxo is ultra sensitive to power and needs a very quiet power supply to perform at its best.
I personally thought intona to have 60-65uv noise from 10hz-100khz is quite impressive for running off USB power. Those regulators are excellent. Many tell you noise specs for only part of the range to get lower numbers. Intona's USB isolater is completely impedance controlled and has perfect USB specs of 90ohm diff/odd and 45 for even. 
The noise charts are quite nice.
http://intona.eu/pub/7054_fft_output.pdf
http://intona.eu/pub/7054_fft_downstream.pdf

check out this post from a guy with a modded Regen with Neutron Star...
"So my Itona USB isolator came yesterday and I got a chance to listen to it for about four hours. I didn't want to add any additional variables to the mix so I used XXHE 2.03 and W10 10074.

I first listened to my current setup which has a NeutronStar clock modified Uptone Regen USB re-clocker running off a lithium Ion battery power supply. The sound was as usual: very nice detail, ambiance, deep nicely scaled soundstage and nice black background. 

Out came the Regen and in went the Itona with a short generic USB from the PC and the Clarixa 1m to the NOS1a 75b. 

So I don't want to sound hyperbolic but, I was literally stunned at the difference! Like a complete removal of blur, smear and distortion. And this was in all important areas; frequency response, timing and dynamics. Every song I played was just so much more detailed and right. What really stood out was the delicacy of quiet passages but the incredible slam and quickness of percussion and piano. And the decay seemed infinite, just so natural. And the natural shimmer to cymbals was better than I've ever heard from my system.

We all have known the feeling of running through our favorites and hearing them as new again, but Wow! this was pretty dramatic. 

All I can say, is thank you again Peter for being the Guinea Pig, and I can't wait to get my new ram drive OS disc and short Clarixa USB!! What a great way to bring in the New Year!
"
and another guys post...
"Hey Dave,

I just wanted to let you know, I tried the Regen I in series after the Itona and no comparison the Itona alone is much better in every area.

Having the Itona in line with the Regen may have improved the sound of the Regen slightly, but let's just say you might see another Regen for sale on Computer Audiophile or maybe it will be used in my office system smile

Todd"


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> The intona's crystals are for clocking try fpga and USB timing. Not audio. So why bother with audio clocks? That's not apples to apples...
> Not relevant in the same way. It's not a Dac, it's not a DDC. It's a noise eliminator on steroids. What clocks do the jitterbug use, who cares , it's not a Dac or DDC. Does not deal with audio. And the intona is made for a broad range of applications yet for professional studio use. Audio is a big part lf it. They specifically have been working with the audio community to better their product. So give them a chance before you do a review on a product you have not even tried. The reviews are all positive. Except serial#1 of the intona. Otherwise they are reviews that simply are amazing and dramatic differences for people. A real achievement that has been made in USB high speed connectivity for the first time. We don't fully understand it now, but does it not intrigue you and strike your interest? I own the ppa3 ocxo and it was worth the money imho, and I try a lot of new gear and put it to the tests my hearing is quite sensitive and I will report what I hear on my system and a few other people's systems. Including a known laptop with dirty power issues. A wyrd, regen, jitterbug etc have not been able to fix this particular laptop or cure it of its noise issues 100%, it's still there.. Only subtle improvements and notable ones. But nothing ground breaking
> 
> I Personally have done many many hours of research on the intona and its technology. I'm quite intrigued and will definitely put it to the test. My system is about as clean as clean power gets. No joke.
> ...




Great post. 

I have seen reviews like these on many forums. I was wrong with the lan isolator but made a stupid mistake forgetting about the dc contents of i2s. So my intuition can play me tricks but in fact, i still believe my intention of adding galvanic isolation was good, especially usimg i2s.

I kmow the Intona will do good. The wyrd makes a difference in my system. The Intona is an improved Wyrd. And yes, i am impressed with this device. Not much by the chassis, but a lot by the internals.

By the way, have you tried rj45 i2s from the breeze using a 6-inch cable to the master-11? 

I have the hdmi kit from audio-gd which i have never installed. I was not too keen on trying the enlarge the usb socket hole to fit the hdmi. I might do it at some point. Another point against was that my rj45 cable was so short and well shielded that it should be as could as hdmi because of the 2 conversions required. And not to forget that there is at least 4 inches of minimally shielded flat wire to get the i2s to the dsp inside the M7. Might try wrap this with shielding tape at some point or replace it with shielded cat7 fitted with the same connectors.


----------



## petarst

Hi to all,
  
 I am waiting for my gustard u12 to come, and I would like to ask for a help to configure my laptop to work with it the best as it can. I am using foobar, but if you think it is not good to play songs, I can use something else. Os is win7. I hope i have made good choice instead of m2tech evo. Where I can get the driver as well what i have to configure on my laptop, please? I will buy good usb cable too  Thank you !


----------



## bimmer100

petarst said:


> Hi to all,
> 
> I am waiting for my gustard u12 to come, and I would like to ask for a help to configure my laptop to work with it the best as it can. I am using foobar, but if you think it is not good to play songs, I can use something else. Os is win7. I hope i have made good choice instead of m2tech evo. Where I can get the driver as well what i have to configure on my laptop, please? I will buy good usb cable too  Thank you !


 
 The U12 should come with a driver disc.
 I would suggest trying Jriver Media Center. It has a DSP you can configure tons of custom stuff in comparison to foobar.
 if you're on a budget, a good old supra usb cable is a good choice. 
  
 if you're on a laptop, consider the noise from it. SMPS or switch mode power supplies create havoc for audio. it's likely going to sound better when you run off battery power on your laptop than with the power supply plugged in. TRY IT. report back. 
 one step at a time


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> But again,10 meters! A bit crazy. And will it work with a wyrd?
> 
> Plus there are rave reviews all over the net about the Intona. Those people cannot all be wrong. But the corning sure is affordable.


 

 Yeah - been there - done that - bought the tee-shirt Regen.  Go back and read the insane accolades on CA and other places in the early Regen days. 
 There was at one point a 6 month wait list to buy one.
  
 Again depends on the system - if you are running a single USB cable into your DAC, with a USB bridge built in.  Then it probably does help.  With an external USB bridge, separate linear power supply for the USB bridge, and a split cable and VBUS Blocker.  Likely very little improvement.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I just remembered the weak point of the corning cable: it carries power all the way through. Cannot use the receiving end's power to do the final conversion. Not possible i assume with usb. Seems to compromise galvanic isolation.
> 
> Intona is still the best bet for me. With a mac mini, i cannot easilly switch usb card. I have to use an external device.


 

 And why would you want to use the recieveing end for power with a Breeze?  The power can in no way effect the fiber optic data lines - unlike copper data lines.  A little physics - when electricity runs through a cable it produces a magnetic field - that field can in turn produce another electric signal in an adjacent copper wire.  Fiber optics is non-conductive and non-magnetic - so not influenced by the electric signal.  The power is only to feed the electrical-optical converters.  Then there should be a VBUS blocker - to completely isolate the data signal as it then carried by the copper line of the 2G.
  
 The nature of Elec-Optical converters is absolute galvanic isolation.  As the optical portion has no ground - being light (not electrical) it need none.  Fred this is all very basic EE stuff.  The advantage of fiber optic is minimal degrading over long runs (why all high speed internet trunks are fiber optic today), but most important modern fiber optic converters can carry massive throughput - way in excess of copper.
  
 This cable is a USB 3.0 cable - that means not just 480 Mbps but 5 Gbps!!!  That is an order of magnitude greater then USB 2.0 High Speed.


----------



## bimmer100

freda said:


>


 
 I've not used RJ45 i2s yet. I have the module. Since my wifes nfb28 shipped with that. I installed the hdmi module in about 10min. neither the nfb28 or m11 needed to have any hole widened. I'm not sure what you mean there. they use a square hole and hdmi sits to one side of that hole. Actually, its not square, its the size of an ethernet jack hole. so.... no issues. quick swap. Might have to hookup a power lead depending on model. but no more than 10min job.
  
 I've used some of the emi/rf ab5050 whatever its called on the ic's of the hdmi input etc. I posted tons of stuff in the master11 thread on this topic. 
  
 I have been waiting to hear back from kingwa about a week now. still no xmos boards, yet he had asked me to remove the one from the diu8 to show him I am cable to replace it. this was the deal for him to sell me replacements...yep, a bugger, but not as hard as installing new oscillators on the board. 
  
 i will likely do the breeze first, since it's going to be a breeze. the most simple swap to 957's. I'm waiting on some 957 platform dip14 boards from ian in canada. and debating on what bypass caps to use with them. likely what he supplies, yet i have an assortment that may be better.
  
 I'm excited to try an ultra low noise LPS on the pro3a. seems this might be the ticket. I may void the warranty and use it as my baseline to integrate hdmi i2s.
  
  
 or...the candidate i'm also eyeing is the waveIO. it's been heavily updated with newer components like the NDK's, NOT what is pictured, and it supports i2s input and output boards from audio-gd. i've talked a bit with the owner/designer.
 http://luckit.biz/product/waveio/
 it's a clean and simple design, yet great components
Product Highlights  
 

Asynchronous USB interface: 
Bit perfect audio streaming from the USB host (optimized for playback)
USB Audio Class 2.0 support with fall-back to USB Audio Class 1.0
Low latency (round trip as low as 3ms)
16 to 32 Bit-transparent reproduction
44.1 to 384 kHz standard sample rates supported
Option for self- or USB bus-powered applications

Driver Support: 
*No drivers* needed for MAC OS version 10.6.4 and above
*No driver* installation required for Linux with UAC2 compliant kernel
ASIO / KS / WASAPI / Direct Sound drivers for Windows XP to 10 (32 and 64 bit)
*Fully featured* genuine *Thesycon* driver package with *NO* periodic beeps
We do *NOT* offer XMOS driver packages with limited functionality – as per this document
*Native DSD* driver support and other features available only to genuine *Thesycon* packages!
Latest *Thesycon* version of Windows drivers (v3.26) is available for use.

USB and digital audio outputs: 
Mechanically enhanced gold plated USB-B connector
Second multiplexed USB data input port available for off-board connection
Isolated I2S output using Giant Magneto Resistive (GMR) isolators from NVE
Non-isolated I2S port by means of 6GHz U.FL. mini BNC sockets
two 75R isolated and non-isolated SPDIF outputs
all I2S and SPDIF outputs can work in parallel

User interface and signaling: 
LEDs for sample rate display (44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192, 352.8 and 384 kHz),
“Host Active” signal available when card is plugged in and recognized by the host
“Audio Stream” output is enabled when there’s streaming over USB Bus (music playing)
Green power-on LED

Hardware and layout: 
4-layer gold-plated PCB with 1/2/2/1 oz copper thickness
Two 70um copper layers are used for uninterrupted GND / GND & PWR rails
Careful layout to preserve signal’s integrity and keep the noise to minimum levels
*Seven linear* low-noise regulators bypassed by extensive decoupling networks
There are *NO* SMPS regulators present on this board
Three LP5900 LDOs (6.5µVrms) powers the oscillators & surrounding sensitive logic
High quality parts including OsCON SVP electrolytics & NP0/C0G caps
Two ultra-low phase noise japanese made oscillators (NDK – NZ2520SD type)
WaveIO is the first Asynchronous USB interface for Do-It-Yourself (DIY) market – and not only –adopting the NDKs famous NZ2520SD oscillators, starting back in 2012 year

100% Manually assembled, tested and cleaned product! Proofs: 
*NO* Top and Bottom fiducials are present on PCB (required by automatic assembly machine)
There are *NO* “mouse bytes” on any sides of PCB, involving a panel break-away tab geometry
There are *NO* leftovers of a panel V-scoring process on any of the sides of this PCB
All solder joints are double checked to meet our aesthetic and mechanical quality demands
There’s *NO* chance for any automatic pick and place machine to provide such a high quantity of solder on any of the WaveIO’s joints, even if “Overprinting” option is used
Each board is manually cleaned *six* times in a row until there are no flux residues left on it
Even if “NoClean” fluxes could leave traces after soldering process has tacking place but, after cleaning process, you’ll see *NO* residues on any of the WaveIOs joints!
*All* WaveIOs are individually packed in zipped ESD protective bags and sealed with EDS stickers

  
 I'm going to order one of these and do a little DIY box project.


----------



## rb2013

petarst said:


> Hi to all,
> 
> I am waiting for my gustard u12 to come, and I would like to ask for a help to configure my laptop to work with it the best as it can. I am using foobar, but if you think it is not good to play songs, I can use something else. Os is win7. I hope i have made good choice instead of m2tech evo. Where I can get the driver as well what i have to configure on my laptop, please? I will buy good usb cable too  Thank you !


 

 Foobar is excellent - recommended by Steve Nugent, noted Audio Engineer at Empirical Audio.  It is free - very flexible and has some of the best upsamplers available also free.  The Evo is excellent  - I owned one.  But needs a good linear power supply (I used a Acopian Yellow Box), and the Evo clock for best performance.
  
 In comparison to a stock Evo the U12 is better and has more features.  The U12 will come with a mini-CD to install the std drivers.  I would start there before experimenting with some of the later releases.
  
 If you want a low cost USB cable that is quite good - get a Supra USB.  They're about $45.  Madison Sound has them in the US
  
 Good Luck and welcome to the thread!


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> And why would you want to use the recieveing end for power with a Breeze?  The power can in no way effect the fiber optic data lines - unlike copper data lines.  A little physics - when electricity runs through a cable it produces a magnetic field - that field can in turn produce another electric signal in an adjacent copper wire.  Fiber optics is non-conductive and non-magnetic - so not influenced by the electric signal.  The power is only to feed the electrical-optical converters.  Then there should be a VBUS blocker - to completely isolate the data signal as it then carried by the copper line of the 2G.
> 
> The nature of Elec-Optical converters is absolute galvanic isolation.  As the optical portion has no ground - being light (not electrical) it need none.  Fred this is all very basic EE stuff.  The advantage of fiber optic is minimal degrading over long runs (why all high speed internet trunks are fiber optic today), but most important modern fiber optic converters can carry massive throughput - way in excess of copper.
> 
> This cable is a USB 3.0 cable - that means not just 480 Mbps but 5 Gbps!!!  That is an order of magnitude greater then USB 2.0 High Speed.


 
 I understand. But my point is that for with it to work, there is still an electrical connection being made from sender to receiver. If the receiving end of the cable, where the optical to electrical conversion occurs, would draw the power from the receiver, there we be no connection, so complete galvanic isolation, without a doubt. Obtaining the 5v from the breeze shoud make a difference for this reason and also because of the output resistance and possible contamination involved in carrying this voltage over 30 feet.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> The intona's crystals are for clocking try fpga and USB timing. Not audio. So why bother with audio clocks? That's not apples to apples...
> Not relevant in the same way. It's not a Dac, it's not a DDC. It's a noise eliminator on steroids. What clocks do the jitterbug use, who cares , it's not a Dac or DDC. D


 
 It does matter if you are effecting signal integrity with dirty clocks - right back to adding noise back that you spent $300 to eleminate.  Seems circular.  The dirty clocks induce phase noise at orders of magnitude greater levels - these then increase packet noise in the USB Bridge.
  
 Please note that the Intona does NOT use crystals - but CMEMS devices.  As they state crystals fail at +2g lateral forces.
  
 A Jitterbug is not re-clocking the USB data stream - the Intona is.
  
 The clocks were not chosen for audio SQ - but to with stand >2G lateral forces 24/7.  Nothing any stereo has to deal with.
  
 As noted Audio Engineer John Swenson has said  - this noise is very hard to filter and galvanic isolation will not fix it.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I understand. But my point is that for with it to work, there is still an electrical connection being made from sender to receiver. If the receiving end of the cable, where the optical to electrical conversion occurs, would draw the power from the receiver, there we be no connection, so complete galvanic isolation, without a doubt. Obtaining the 5v from the breeze shoud make a difference for this reason and also because of the output resistance and possible contamination involved in carrying this voltage over 30 feet.


 

 Not following you - the Breeze does not need any USB 5VDC power.  What I suggest is blocking the +5 VDC VBUS USB power and ground at the end of the Corning.  The Corning only acts to perform ultimate - 5 Gbps galvanic isolation - from the PC's USB.
  
 The reason the Intona is so large is that it's real purpose is to act a DC surge protector for industrial equipment.  That is why it's main feature is the 2500 Volt surge protection.  And it's 'shake proof' resin case, and high temperature operation.
 Again - very important in a Nuclear Reactor's mission critical industrial control systems or on a fighter jets avionics - but pointless in a stereo system.
  


> Table 1Model Types, Ordering Codes and Differences
> Standard VersionModel Nr. 70541kV isolation, standard temperature grade, standard connectorsIndustrial VersionModel Nr. 7054-X2.5kV isolation, specified isolation working voltage, extended temperature grade, high retention connectors
> Both models are also available as bare bone version without enclosure. Resin hardened version for extreme mechanical demands (shakeproof) upon request.​


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> It does matter if you are effecting signal integrity with dirty clocks - right back to adding noise back that you spent $300 to eleminate.  Seems circular.  The dirty clocks induce phase noise at orders of magnitude greater levels - these then increase packet noise in the USB Bridge.
> 
> A Jitterbug is not re-clocking the USB data stream - the Intona is.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'll take this device to the test and see how it improves usb performance. listen with the ear and hook it up for some extensive testing to see how noise improves at the usb level.
  
 i'm not sure why you are so determined to say the intona is anything short of a piece of crap when you havent even heard if it works. So i'm dropping this subject with you. I'm not sure why you're hung up on a quote about "one" of it's features being that it can withstand 2G lateral forces 24/7. however this is relevant as a point of arguement... You sure have me confused to why you keep bringing that up as if it overshadows all of it's other potential at improving USB functions. those cheapo isolators on ebay filter 3000V and some 5000V, thats not the point either. somehow you are thinking that the intona has "dirty" clocks" yet when you see the packet noise of the intona, it's likely the lowest of any device in the industry. 
  
 quote from company
 "At Intona, our business nature is Professional Audio. Thanks to our fully equippped audio lab, we had the chance to take special attention keeping the noise of the power supply output as low as possible in the 20-20k range and we also optimized current flow using a high-speed current sensor probe that resulted in the probably industrial-wide lowest 8 kHz packet noise. We also did ensure the compatiblity to UAC 2.0 devices. Lastly, both XMOS-based and RME interfaces are tested and found 100% compatible to our high speed isolator product as it supports the full bandwidth of 480 MBits."


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Not following you - the Breeze does not need any USB 5VDC power.  What I suggest is blocking the +5 VDC VBUS USB power and ground at the end of the Corning.  The Corning only acts to perform ultimate - 5 Gbps galvanic isolation - from the PC's USB.
> 
> The reason the Intona is so large is that it's real purpose is to act a DC surge protector for industrial equipment.  That is why it's main feature is the 2500 Volt surge protection.  And it's 'shake proof' resin case, and high temperature operation.
> Again - very important in a Nuclear Reactor's mission critical industrial control systems or on a fighter jets avionics - but pointless in a stereo system.


 
 I got your point. But you still have the signal connection from a device that has an electrical connection (vbus) with the sending end. So if there is not a good isolation between the signal bus and vbus at the receiving end of the corning, you have a problem. My point was that the receiving end of the corning should be on the same ground level as that breeze, for ideal connection. and that if the breeze supplied the vbus, you would break the electrical connection completly.


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> I've not used RJ45 i2s yet. I have the module. Since my wifes nfb28 shipped with that. I installed the hdmi module in about 10min. neither the nfb28 or m11 needed to have any hole widened. I'm not sure what you mean there. they use a square hole and hdmi sits to one side of that hole. Actually, its not square, its the size of an ethernet jack hole. so.... no issues. quick swap. Might have to hookup a power lead depending on model. but no more than 10min job.
> 
> I've used some of the emi/rf ab5050 whatever its called on the ic's of the hdmi input etc. I posted tons of stuff in the master11 thread on this topic.
> 
> ...


 
 Could you point me tothe stuff you used tu isolate the i2s wire in your m11?
  
 Not sure about the drilling issue. Think it was cause I wanted to fit hdmi in the usb hole and could both i2s.
  
 Thanks in advance.


----------



## FredA

freda said:


> I got your point. But you still have the signal connection from a device that has an electrical connection (vbus) with the sending end. So if there is not a good isolation between the signal bus and vbus at the receiving end of the corning, you have a problem. My point was that the receiving end of the corning should be on the same ground level as that breeze, for ideal connection. and that if the breeze supplied the vbus, you would break the electrical connection completly.


 
 Just so that I make myself very clear, if you push my idea, you cut the corning fiber at both end, fit a toslink in both the sender and receiver and find high quality 0-5v to feed the corning ends on both devices, then you have got usb over optical and perfect isolation. Tadam!


----------



## bimmer100

freda said:


> I got your point. But you still have the signal connection from a device that has an electrical connection (vbus) with the sending end. So if there is not a good isolation between the signal bus and vbus at the receiving end of the corning, you have a problem. My point was that the receiving end of the corning should be on the same ground level as that breeze, for ideal connection. and that if the breeze supplied the vbus, you would break the electrical connection completly.



please look again...
http://intona.eu/pub/7054_fft_downstream.pdf
 
this shows 8K packet noise at full speed...not until 145db below you will see spikes in 8k noise... show me one device that does better.
 
 
more reading material...
 
 
your corning cable is mentioned, amongst many others...notice 8khz spikes...
 
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/05/measurements-usb-hubs-and-8khz-phy.html
 
 
 
still not interested?
 
take note of the audible ranges of each graph.
 
NOTHING to see with the intona until after the audible range. quite impressive to me. since it's clearly the lowest noise usb device to date.

So this blogger updated his comments about he Corning optical cable. It's fatally flawed. But the intona USB isolator would fix this problem! See what he says "
Hey there guys. Okay. I took the multimeter to the Corning optical cable and indeed the suspicions were correct - GROUND IS STILL CONNECTED.

However, given my findings, I am of the opinion that the noise reduction I'm seeing is primarily due to isolation of the data lines using optics which I think is *much more important*. That 8kHz tone IMO is much more bothersome than comparatively lower level noise and is originating mainly from D+ and D-, not the 5V and GND connections. Suppression of 8kHz at least in my system provided a nice proxy for quieting down the noise in general.

Again, love to see what the other commercial products would do in this "test bed"."


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> please look again...
> http://intona.eu/pub/7054_fft_downstream.pdf
> 
> this shows 8K packet noise at full speed...not until 145db below you will see spikes in 8k noise... show me one device that does better.
> ...


 
  
 I have always been interested. I am exposing the flaws with the corning. Discarded it a while ago in fact. I had forgetten but then remembered as RB2013 brought it to the subject. I trust the Intona. I will order one based on your impressions, if favorable. My guess is that there are 90% of the chances for that to happen.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I got your point. But you still have the signal connection from a device that has an electrical connection (vbus) with the sending end. So if there is not a good isolation between the signal bus and vbus at the receiving end of the corning, you have a problem. My point was that the receiving end of the corning should be on the same ground level as that breeze, for ideal connection. and that if the breeze supplied the vbus, you would break the electrical connection completly.


 
 I see your point - well remember the receiving end of the Corning copper power lines only go to supply the electrical-optic converters.  The JB modded to VBUS Blocker blocks at the Corning end.  So there is no common ground with the Breeze at all - from the Corning receiving end.  The Corning transmission optical-elec converters will send the USB packet to the 2G cable - after the VBUS Blocker.  Remember they are receiving unfilter or processed light - which carries the USB packet signal.  Immune to ground, electrical, magnetic, RFI, EMI.
  
 But I guess your point is the effect of the ground on the receiving elec-optical converters?
  
 Remember in my hypothetical set-up the PPA OXCO card is sending the USB power and data - it is run off a separate LPS.  It's not connected to the ground of the PC at all.   That's kind of the point.
  
 A lower cost way to go would be the PPA2 card - with TXCO clocking of the USB - run off a separate LPS.  Also away from the PC's USB BUS - running on the PCI BUS (hopefully alone! - No gaming GPU cards!)  This is $149 with the external power connector.
  
 Now you have pure LPS supplied USB (clocked with extemely low noise clocks) from the PC then elec to optical galvanic isolation>then VBUS +5VDC and Ground Blocker JB> to the 2G cable data line only> to the DDC.
  
 I know this galvanic isolation thing can become obsessive - but that is triple redundant!  I don't know if the Mini Mac can accept a PCI-E card?
  

  
  
 The trick with the PPA cards is to power them from a separate LPS.  The TXCO V2 card needs 5VDC 1A, the OXCO V3 5VDC 2A - as the OXCO oven needs more power to reach thermal equil.  A TeraDak DC-30W  should do the trick with either.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Just so that I make myself very clear, if you push my idea, you cut the corning fiber at both end, fit a toslink in both the sender and receiver and find high quality 0-5v to feed the corning ends on both devices, then you have got usb over optical and perfect isolation. Tadam!


 

 Well the PPA card should supply the equiv without the cutting.  That's running the PPA off a separate LPS.  Remember the Intona will require TWO high quality USB cables - factor that into the cost calculations.
  
 This the likely route I will go once the DDC experimentation and modding is complete.
  
 But hey guys - it's your money- have at and I will be interested in your results! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 BTW was thinking of the CA hoopla on the Curious USB cable - for me that turned out to be a dead end.  Fortunately had a loaner and didn't have to spend any funds.  Just sayn' about CA bandwagons.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> freda said:
> 
> 
> > I got your point. But you still have the signal connection from a device that has an electrical connection (vbus) with the sending end. So if there is not a good isolation between the signal bus and vbus at the receiving end of the corning, you have a problem. My point was that the receiving end of the corning should be on the same ground level as that breeze, for ideal connection. and that if the breeze supplied the vbus, you would break the electrical connection completly.
> ...


 

 This does not account for the added phase noise from the dirty clocks, powered by the PC's USB.
  
 Maybe Intona could come up with an audio version - one that doesn't have to perform at <2G lateral acceleration 24/7.  With lower noise crystal clocks  - even just XO's.  And an external power option.  That would be more interesting to me.
  
 I don't need 2500 Volt surge protection so they can for go that part or the resin 'shake-proof' case - maybe at much lower cost.
  
 On the Corning - well duh! Of course the ground is still connected - it has copper power lines.  But that can be easily solved - snip - snip.  Here is the reason to use the Corning - at least theortically:
  


> However, given my findings, *I am of the opinion that the noise reduction I'm seeing is primarily due to isolation of the data lines using optics which I think is *much more important**. That 8kHz tone IMO is much more bothersome than comparatively lower level noise and is originating mainly from D+ and D-, not the 5V and GND connections. *Suppression of 8kHz at least in my system provided a nice proxy for quieting down the noise in general. *


 
 That 8K noise is the 'packet noise' that Uptone's Swenson has been speaking about.


----------



## rb2013

*III. Let us now use the 33' Corning Optical USB 3 cable to connect to the computer, same hub as above:* http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/05/measurements-usb-hubs-and-8khz-phy.html
  


> There you go... Clearly the optical cable has done a _very noticeable_ job in attenuating the USB noise from the computer! The 9kHz tone is below noise floor now. As I discussed previously, the optical connection provides significant electrical noise isolation from the computer's USB port. We see the 8kHz tone drop from -102.5dB to -118dB. A very significant difference of 15.5dB. This drop has now rendered the annoying high-pitched tone inaudible to me in the soundroom. Job pretty much done .


 
 Before the Corning:


 After the Corning:


 Now if he would just get rid of those noisy SMPS hubs and power with a LPS - then we are cooking with Gas!
  
 Now supply the PC USB from a PPA TXCO LPS fed card vs the PC's noisy USB port - watch the 8K noise virtually disappear.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> This does not account for the added phase noise from the dirty clocks, powered by the PC's USB.
> 
> Maybe Intona could come up with an audio version - one that doesn't have to perform at <2G lateral acceleration 24/7.  With lower noise crystal clocks  - even just XO's.  And an external power option.  That would be more interesting to me.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 #1 it is for audio purpose - it does account for the phase noise of the "dirty clocks" as it's measured from the usb output, after it's passed through the clocks, how do you think they get these measurements? they are measured at the output, not from some point on the pcb/component, that would be pointless.
  
 #2 the PC's clocks are not an issue since the intona galvanically isolates, reclocks, sends flawless noise free packets with no 8khz spikes, super cleave 60uV power, what else do you need? 
  
 #3 what is wrong with stating the isolation status and voltage surge maximums 
  
 #4 external power is not needed when using galvanic isolation that truly works and uses excellent regulators to clean up the power to a mere 60uV!!!!! thats way better than your teradak dc30w!? why would you downgrade to that PSU? why?! no logic...
  
 #5 i'm done with this subject, I guess we will agree to disagree. I'm a bit shocked at this point that you're so stubborn about some 2G lateral acceleration feature and surge protection being the reason not to get the product or even believe it's of value. 
  
 I've purchased items you've recommended and always approached things with an open mind. On to the next bigger and better thing. 
  
 Thank's for keeping an open mind. But the intona, in your opinion is some military product, yet it clearly states it was designed for audio purposes in studio grade type gear. not for some nasa grade space shuttle or whatever you think it's for. Anyways,  I first judged it by it's outer case. it's ugly and getting hidden behind everything in my system. But i'm pretty darn sure it's going to be good. I'll use my ears, and if thats not obvious, i'll get the 30,000 testing gear out and put it through the ringer to get #'s and facts.
  
 I'm personally not going to talk trash about a product I havent tried or tested.
  
 wow!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 just WOW. I would have thought you would of read some of my posts and had a moment that was like "OH CRAP, this is interesting!"
 nope. thats fine. i'll try your Graphene Cable, Breeze, Audio Sensibilitiy Silver SE digital coax, jitterbug (again), Pro3a, U12 and likely some other stuff... some are great recommendations, thank you sir. I'm done discussing the Intona and will refrain from bringing this up with you again. Similar to our conversations about the PPA3 OCXO and Paul Hynes SR3... those pieces are gear are clearly a waste of money to you too. yet you have never given them a listen to make an honest to goodness judgement. Please consider my apology for being so forward. But no offense, I personally like to try a product before deciding it's not legit or worthy. All the facts look to be good. It may or may not work in my system, and it may or may not work in yours. but, like the regen, it works in some systems, and very very well in the majority actually. The Intona does everything the regen does, but much better. even with it's "dirty clocks".  I remember my conversation with Alex Crespi. I will so kindly copy and paste his email to me. 
  
 "
Hi Tim:
 
Your Teradak will work fine with the REGEN.
 
The REGEN will be of benefit to both the Gustard and the Amanero.  It is all about providing better signal integrity (a real thing, not a marketing word) to the USB input so the DAC's USB input PHY chip (complex little beast) does not have to work as hard to decode the data, thereby generating less packet- and ground-plane noise.  You might find some enlightenment about the issues and the REGEN in this review that was just published on AudioStream.com: http://www.audiostream.com/content/uptone-audio-usb-regen
 
As for clocks:  You are confusing the DAC master clock (or the Gustard's output clock which becomes master for S/PDIF interfaces) with the USB PHY and hub-chip clock as used in all USB inputs and in the REGEN and Schiit Wyrd.  VERY different things.  We do use a nice low-jitter Crystek clock in the REGEN, but is far from being an important aspect to its performance--or the reason the REGEN outperform the Schiit Wyrd.  The power network around our hub chip, the impedance matching with the 4-layer board, and the whole focus on SI is what makes the REGEN stand out--especially when placed right at the input jack of the DAC or USB>S/PDIF converter as recommended.
 
I am sure you will enjoy it.
 
Best,
 "
  
 note: requote "We do use a nice low-jitter Crystek clock in the REGEN, but is far from being an important aspect to its performance--or the reason the REGEN outperform the Schiit Wyrd."
  
requote again... " but is far from being an important aspect to its performance "
  
IT = crystek clock, as is...clocks are FAR from being the reason of it's perfomrance. since we are not talking about clocking an audio signal. It's timing of digital packets. So if they achieve timing of digital packets with NO noise at all with a noise floor of -146db.... i'm sold.  as average computers are 102-120db at the very best case due to ground noise. The regen amber....reduced it...did not eliminate it. The fancy crystek low jitter clocks didn't help the regen get lower noise specs in it's packet transfer. just saying...
  
-T


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> *III. Let us now use the 33' Corning Optical USB 3 cable to connect to the computer, same hub as above:* http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/05/measurements-usb-hubs-and-8khz-phy.html
> 
> Before the Corning:
> 
> ...


 
 did you miss the part where intona's 8khz packet noise is not in audible range and doesnt even begin to show any trace of a blip until -146db? the corning is 118db. Thats significant...no wait. thats HUGE difference. And an LPS would not make up for that gap. trust me on that. or don't trust me. that's ok.
 intona does this without an external LPS, it's own internal ultra low noise regulators are good enough at 60uV...which is better than 99.9 %of  most external LPS.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Well the PPA card should supply the equiv without the cutting.  That's running the PPA off a separate LPS.  Remember the Intona will require TWO high quality USB cables - factor that into the cost calculations.
> 
> This the likely route I will go once the DDC experimentation and modding is complete.
> 
> ...


 
 I am not sure about any of this, in any case.
  
 But my feeling is the Intona will work. My guts. Indeed, i believe that fitting a usb port board in the mini would be problem. And the optical to electrical conversion of the corning cannot be perfect, given how it is powered, athough the graphs look good.  You are right about the PPA card providing cleaner power, but still has to go 30 feet. I really don`t like it. Could work, but for me the Intona is easier. And there are the reviews. What the reviews don't necessarily say is how good was the setup initially. So in the case of bimmer100, I know it is excellent. So if he feels the Intona is worth it, I can trust him.
  
 I will wait and see, and then order. The corning is worth a try, for sure. But my guts tells me Intona.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Well the PPA card should supply the equiv without the cutting.  That's running the PPA off a separate LPS.  Remember the Intona will require TWO high quality USB cables - factor that into the cost calculations.
> 
> This the likely route I will go once the DDC experimentation and modding is complete.
> 
> ...


 
 the usb cable shootout...well lets just say, not a lot of excitement for me. many of them were returned. The 2G i'm keeping for now...but yes, I figured two usb cables would be needed of course. likely will stick to supra cables. You may not like them, but I actually do. 
 i'll try them with two supras...one 2G for input, and supra for output
 two pangea for input and output. 
 2G for input and one pangea for output.
 and last, I'm making my own usb cable. 
  
 No cable will make a bigger difference than what the intona is capable of. Facts back up that statement.
 cables make subtle changes at best. So i'm not worried about having two cables, overall sound will be significantly better if the claims of the intona are true.
  
  
 OH, and the PPA3 OCXO and high end LPS like paul hynes was not interesting to you and I recall you saying it to be a waste of money. Yet now you're considering it?
  
 I would save you're money for cables or other ddc's. Although I believe the PPA3 and Hynes SR3 was a foundation needed for my system to sound as good as it does. Opinions are like ********. everyone has one   I'm overly into utlra clean power in my system... the list goes on and on with the mods i've done...
  
 if you read my profile, you'd see what i've done.
  
 eidfidelity filters, corsair ax1200 psu, balanced a/c, a/c regenerator, high grade cryo'd power cables, emi/rf suppression materials, the ppa3, hynes sr3 with pure silver dc cable, blah blah blah. the ripple issues in my computer are not issues. they barely exist, yet still not 60uV... i wish.... but if the intona doesn't make a big difference, it will be because of my gear/setup and the careful attention i've had with power implementation and gear pairing.  But if it does make a huge difference in my system, that says a clear message... it will work very damn well for the average joe or one with just average power implementation or entry level linear power supplies / gear related to power upgrades/cleaning it up etc etc. blah blah.
  
  
 the PPA3 OCXO is expensive, so is a high grade ultra low noise PSU. the Teradak dc30w is far from ultra low noise FYI. there are MUCH MUCH better options than that. it uses ultra cheap components compared to teddy pardo or hynes, simontuned or mojo (i understand some mojo gear is using belleson regulators now)...simontuned is a great option too.
  
 mojo stuff is cool  an alternative to hynes or teddy...both long wait times
 http://www.mojo-audio.com/internal-filter-modules/
 http://www.mojo-audio.com/watt-v1-0-power-supply/   (this one has 50uV noise, or .05mV!!! super awesome!!! slightly besting the intona which is impressive! a teradak dc30w likely gets around 2mV-6mV or 2000-6000uV...noisy bugger, not good for femto clocks or high grade clocks like ndk...thats for darn sure!)
 http://www.mojo-audio.com/joule-v5-0-power-supply/   ( this is the big boy) kind pricey
  
  
 or teddy stuff (which is cheaper for the most part, but mojo likely is better in some cases, but I can ask teddy for exact figures, some psu's likely are slightly beeter than 50uV)
 http://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies.html
  
 Hynes,or Paul Hynes is custom order, pricey but the best. 4 times quieter than most battery supplies, and much lower PSSR than others, the noise is insanely low. the OR5 from empirical chose Hynes for a good reason. 
  
  
 anyhow... clean power will help everything, but the intona truly has more potential than one might give it credit for  From an engineering stand point they have achieved more than cutting a wire to isolate the ground. Many engineers have failed over the years to achieve what Intona has successfully done. TRUE highspeed 480mbps galvanically isolated connection.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> *III. Let us now use the 33' Corning Optical USB 3 cable to connect to the computer, same hub as above:* http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/05/measurements-usb-hubs-and-8khz-phy.html
> 
> Before the Corning:
> 
> ...


 
 I would bet you if I tested my PPA3 with hynes SR3 that the 8k packet noise would NOT disspear but be significantly less than these graphics. likely 120-125db with all mods i've done to improve my signal. I'd be stoked to get 146db (virtually noise free)
  
 I will enquire atomicbob to do some testing. this needs to be nipped in the bud.


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> I would bet you if I tested my PPA3 with hynes SR3 that the 8k packet noise would NOT disspear but be significantly less than these graphics. likely 120-125db with all mods i've done to improve my signal. I'd be stoked to get 146db (virtually noise free)
> 
> I will enquire atomicbob to do some testing. this needs to be nipped in the bud.


 
 I had not noticed that peek at -120db. I think you have covered all bases, bimmer100, very exhausitive researching. The corning solution seems promising, but you get what you pay for. The  Intona looks perfect for the application on paper. And on the graphs.
  
 Might order it even before you receive it.


----------



## bimmer100

freda said:


> I had not noticed that peek at -120db. I think you have covered all bases, bimmer100, very exhausitive researching. The corning solution seems promising, but you get what you pay for. The  Intona looks perfect for the application on paper. And on the graphs.
> 
> Might order it even before you receive it.


 
 please hold onto your wallet! wait til I give it a go.
 I'm inquiring with atomicbob later about doing some usb packing noise graphs of a standard laptop, my machine, and then again with the itona.
  8khz spikes are common with usb. lets see what my machine does.
  
 also lets find out what my ears tell me
  
 I feel i've wasted my money on too many DDC's recently.regret buying the breeze and never even listened to it yet as I have too many projects before it.
 seems the new flavor of the month is the pro3a and sounds most promising anyhow. But I may be doing my DIY DDC with the WAVEIO as I stated today... suits my needs and have indidual regulators in all teh right places!!! 5 in fact. so should blow the pro3a and breeze out of the water. I will get an ultra low noise Ackodac modular PSU with an R-Core upgraded transformer and build everything inside a DIY aluminum box with carbon fiber faceplate, sprinking graphene dust on it and call it the Time Flux Graphene capacitor DDC deluxe Type R Supreme SE Edition. Think it will sell?   I'm totally joking, but not about it selling... I'm going to sell everything and fund this project.
  
  
 Who wants a Breeze with crystek 957's? or the DIU8? how about a U12. Taking offers.  i need money, my wallet opened too wide recently on the search for the Holy DDC.
  
 This has been fun...all joking aside...I will complete these projects. post my findings and keep pretending to sound like I know what i'm talking about by playing scientist nerd guy. 
  
 Ok, maybe i'm not that funny. I am broke though...the Intona was a chunk of change, but feel it may be the best upgrade to my system in a while. Just a gut feeling anyhow. 
  
 -T


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> please hold onto your wallet! wait til I give it a go.
> I'm inquiring with atomicbob later about doing some usb packing noise graphs of a standard laptop, my machine, and then again with the itona.
> 8khz spikes are common with usb. lets see what my machine does.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ok, i will wait. Maybe i will be interested in the breeze with cristek.
  
 I have checked the WaveIO as well. Interesting board (galvanic isolation on i2s and ndk clocks). I was thinking of assembling it in a nice alu chassis with toroidal, some regulation and only bnc and i2s outputs. As long as the galvanic isolation does not introduce too much jitter. I don`t have enough info at this stage. But this can wait, the breeze is good in my setup.


----------



## conquerator2

auvgeek said:


> I've been out of the game a bit lately, but I haven't been able to find a decent review of Schiit's onboard USB (Gen 2 or Gen 3) vs a nice external DDC (Breeze, DIXO, modded U12/MX-U8, etc). Can you (or anyone else) offer some comparisons?


 
 Gen3 is supposedly a lot better than Gen2. Gen2 is slightly inferior to any external USB DDC mentioned here [U12, MXU8, DXU8 Audio-gd DIs, etc]. I had the Gungnir with Gen2 and it was comparable to the U12 but a bit harsher and uneven [highs and bass emphasis]. The Breeze unit is currently the best USB performance you can get for the money right now, period.
 At least until we see further comparisons to Audio-gd's newest unit.  In general, I prefer the XMOS chips to anything else [rock solid stability and I like the sound] but would like to hear the Anamero384 nonetheless.
  
 RE: Isolators - I am using one in my system and I can confirm it's been the best bang for buck tweak I've made in my system as it eliminated a low level hum I was getting from my PC [I suspect it was a ground loop] and that's all I needed. It made my Wyrd obsolete. I even bought one for back up. That said, they're the standard variety slow-pokes and that's all I need. I am not paying ~300USD for a glorified high-speed isolator. But that's just me.
 I have an R2R DAC that tops out at 32/94 [which is conveniently the same as the USB1.1 standard]. I am not a believer in high bit formats, DSDs and the likes so YMMV. Thus, my 30 - 50$ isolators suit my need perfectly. I would like to have a full-speed isolator eventually, but not for that crazy [IMO] price.
  
 Also, for some reason, my Breeze DOES NOT work when the power line is disconnected. I bought the Vanguard date cable for that reason specifically only to discover it won't see it [W10]. Splooshed 50$.
  
 OT, Currently waiting for a Liquid Carbon and that should hopefully finish my setup for a bit. Otherwise off to amp tweaking again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Cheers


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> the usb cable shootout...well lets just say, not a lot of excitement for me. many of them were returned. The 2G i'm keeping for now...but yes, I figured two usb cables would be needed of course. likely will stick to supra cables. You may not like them, but I actually do.
> i'll try them with two supras...one 2G for input, and supra for output
> two pangea for input and output.
> 2G for input and one pangea for output.
> ...


 

Just a note on the first usb cable: you make it very short and use a cheap one. I paid 10$. This means the wyrd has to be on top of the computer, or just behind. I use a jitterbug as well downsream, on the mini side. This works fine. Should put a piece of damping material underneath the wyrd however to reduce transmission of vibrations from the computer.


----------



## FredA

conquerator2 said:


> Gen3 is supposedly a lot better than Gen2. Gen2 is slightly inferior to any external USB DDC mentioned here [U12, MXU8, DXU8 Audio-gd DIs, etc]. I had the Gungnir with Gen2 and it was comparable to the U12 but a bit harsher and uneven [highs and bass emphasis]. The Breeze unit is currently the best USB performance you can get for the money right now, period.
> At least until we see further comparisons to Audio-gd's newest unit.  In general, I prefer the XMOS chips to anything else [rock solid stability and I like the sound] but would like to hear the Anamero384 nonetheless.
> 
> RE: Isolators - I am using one in my system and I can confirm it's been the best bang for buck tweak I've made in my system as it eliminated a low level hum I was getting from my PC [I suspect it was a ground loop] and that's all I needed. It made my Wyrd obsolete. I even bought one for back up. That said, they're the standard variety slow-pokes and that's all I need. I am not paying ~300USD for a glorified high-speed isolator. But that's just me.
> ...




 Hi. 

Which isolator did you get, just out of curiosity?


----------



## bimmer100

freda said:


> Just a note on the first usb cable: you make it very short and use a cheap one. I paid 10$. This means the wyrd has to be on top of the computer, or just behind. I use a jitterbug as well downsream, on the mini side. This works fine. Should put a piece of damping material underneath the wyrd however to reduce transmission of vibrations from the computer.



Interesting that you mention this. As Daniel @intona is writing up an FAQ and mentioned cable length and how people commonly overshoot and use incorrect lengths. So, that being said. I will ask him the short of it and see his opinions on length. Just because the regen uses short cables doesn't mean the intona should. Maybe, but maybe not.


----------



## conquerator2

freda said:


> Hi.
> 
> Which isolator did you get, just out of curiosity?




Have 2.
The Olimex USB ISO Isolator,which looks very bare and is actually more pricey of the two.
Then the HifimeDIY USB Isolator, which is cheaper and also sleeker, with a LED that lidsup when engaged. It has a short USB cable attached to it so you only need one extra cable technically but unless you have a laptop,it'd hang down so I use an extension anyway.
They both do the same thing equally well but I recommend the HifimeDIY based on price and design


----------



## FredA

conquerator2 said:


> Have 2.
> The Olimex USB ISO Isolator,which looks very bare and is actually more pricey of the two.
> Then the HifimeDIY USB Isolator, which is cheaper and also sleeker, with a LED that lidsup when engaged. It has a short USB cable attached to it so you only need one extra cable technically but unless you have a laptop,it'd hang down so I use an extension anyway.
> They both do the same thing equally well but I recommend the HifimeDIY based on price and design




I used to have the hifimediy one, but lost it. Would not work very well in my main system at the time. It worked well in my office setup however and made a difference. Had quite a flimsy case though.

I also have their t1 amp, which i upgradred with nice input caps. Sounds awesome in my modest bedroom setup with Boston a25 speakers, audio-gd nfb-5 and airport express. Hard to believe this setup can be so good.


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> Interesting that you mention this. As Daniel @intona is writing up an FAQ and mentioned cable length and how people commonly overshoot and use incorrect lengths. So, that being said. I will ask him the short of it and see his opinions on length. Just because the regen uses short cables doesn't mean the intona should. Maybe, but maybe not.




Whatever sounds best. In my opinion, usb cables that make a significant difference are rather rare below 100$. So i am not so inclined to order better ones, that is risky. I know the one i am using right now is better than the straitghtwire, which itself is a little better than the cable Kingwa ships with his gears, which itself is the best generic cable i have tried. Then you have the regular Belkin, which a little below the blue cable from Audio-gd. But with the exception of my current ab-system cable, none of them is a big notch over the others. And the ab-system costs just 45$ usd. This site is not shipping to America anymore it seems, too bad.

 I believe they all sound different but they don't make as much difference as a ddc, not even 20% of it. When i am satisfied with my sound completly, meaning when i succeed into making it constantly as good as as it is on the best day of the week, i will put the final touch and try the 2g and see for myself. For now, it is not a priority. 

I am more concerned with possible ground loops. I suspect i have a problem like that because strong static discharges anywhere in the room make the sound cut for the time of the discharge. So i suppose it affects either usb or i2s transmission, not sure. I think i have a chance of getting rid of this with the Intona. If the system catches those dicharges, i am certainly affected also by airborn rfi or emi in my location.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I'll take this device to the test and see how it improves usb performance. listen with the ear and hook it up for some extensive testing to see how noise improves at the usb level.
> 
> i'm not sure why you are so determined to say the intona is anything short of a piece of crap when you havent even heard if it works. So i'm dropping this subject with you. I'm not sure why you're hung up on a quote about "one" of it's features being that it can withstand 2G lateral forces 24/7. however this is relevant as a point of arguement... You sure have me confused to why you keep bringing that up as if it overshadows all of it's other potential at improving USB functions. those cheapo isolators on ebay filter 3000V and some 5000V, thats not the point either. somehow you are thinking that the intona has "dirty" clocks" yet when you see the packet noise of the intona, it's likely the lowest of any device in the industry.
> 
> ...


 

 The only reason I bring that up was that it was one of their stated design critera and the reason they went with inferior, low cost clocks. 
  
 I doubt you read SiTime's own chart showing the MEMS clocks at the bottom of their entire lineup of clocks in performance.  It was in their whitepaper I linked to - anyway I found it in a jpg - so I posted below.
  
 If they took so much "special attention keeping the noise of the power supply output as low as possible" - then why not included an external power supply port like the Regen.  The way the Itona is made now - you are forced to use the PC USB dirty power (I hope we can agree that the USB port power is dirty) vs an external linear power supply?  Something doesn't add up.
  
 But this device may just be better then the audio designed Regen!  I hope so - as that was a bit disappointing after all the unbelieveable hype on CA.  But at least the Regen was under $200 not $300+.
  
 If it is a big improvement - maybe you can sell me your PPA card?  I would love to try it.
  
 Good luck!  And thanks for trying this for the team!
  
 Cheers




  
*Figure 15. Price/Performance Comparison of Si50x CMEMS Oscillator vs. Si51x, Si59x, and Si53x/5x/7x XOs​*


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> #1 it is for audio purpose - it does account for the phase noise of the "dirty clocks" as it's measured from the usb output, after it's passed through the clocks, how do you think they get these measurements? they are measured at the output, not from some point on the pcb/component, that would be pointless.
> 
> #2 the PC's clocks are not an issue since the intona galvanically isolates, reclocks, sends flawless noise free packets with no 8khz spikes, super cleave 60uV power, what else do you need?
> 
> ...


I never asked you or anyone else to buy any of this stuff - it's what's worked for me.

Now you're going to sell the Breeze without even listening to it? After upgrading the clocks. Now who is judging audio gear with hearing it - and it's sitting there for you to listen to.

Just some friendly advice and take a breath, slow down and enjoy the ride. Audionervosa can get a hold of a guy and make him reactive. 

And I do like the Hynes power supply and have said so, but just didn't want to spend $300 on a single voltage lps at this point. I do like the PPA 3.0 card. The feedback on this OXCO clocked USB card has been excellent. And seems to be an improvement over the PPA TXCO clocked USB card. These clocks are ONLY reclocking USB! So maybe contrary to Alex's email, USB clocks do matter. I know you have a PPA 2 I believe. And your comments have been very favorable about it. In fact you were considering the $400+ PPA 3 and Hynes to feed it.

So do USB clocks noise and accuracy matter or not? Interesting question. I'm open minded here on both sides. Either PPA has clocks far better then the Intona's.

Using a low noise regulator the Intona can clean a dirty USB PC power feed to amazing levels? Wow! They should just sell power supplies!

I'd start a new Intona thread (please) to keep the numerous posts there in a somewhat organized fashion. This thread has already gotten unruly. I'll sub that one.


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Gen3 is supposedly a lot better than Gen2. Gen2 is slightly inferior to any external USB DDC mentioned here [U12, MXU8, DXU8 Audio-gd DIs, etc]. I had the Gungnir with Gen2 and it was comparable to the U12 but a bit harsher and uneven [highs and bass emphasis]. The Breeze unit is currently the best USB performance you can get for the money right now, period.
> At least until we see further comparisons to Audio-gd's newest unit.  In general, I prefer the XMOS chips to anything else [rock solid stability and I like the sound] but would like to hear the Anamero384 nonetheless.
> 
> RE: Isolators - I am using one in my system and I can confirm it's been the best bang for buck tweak I've made in my system as it eliminated a low level hum I was getting from my PC [I suspect it was a ground loop] and that's all I needed. It made my Wyrd obsolete. I even bought one for back up. That said, they're the standard variety slow-pokes and that's all I need. I am not paying ~300USD for a glorified high-speed isolator. But that's just me.
> ...


I might give that $34 isolator a try. My R2R DAC in my office system is 96k as well. I'm using a Regen, but if a $34 USB isolator is just as good, I can sell it.


----------



## rb2013

Hey guys here is a Intona thread - might be a good place to post the Intona stuff.
  
 Cheers!
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/777678/intona-high-speed-usb-isolator


----------



## robertsong

bimmer100 said:


> or...the candidate i'm also eyeing is the waveIO. it's been heavily updated with newer components like the NDK's, NOT what is pictured, and it supports i2s input and output boards from audio-gd. i've talked a bit with the owner/designer.
> http://luckit.biz/product/waveio/
> it's a clean and simple design, yet great components
> Product Highlights
> ...


 
  
  
 Anybody have feedback to share on this Wave I/O board? Actual listening, I mean?  Looks very easy to make your own DDC box.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> I never asked you or anyone else to buy any of this stuff - it's what's worked for me.
> 
> Now you're going to sell the Breeze without even listening to it? After upgrading the clocks. Now who is judging audio gear with hearing it - and it's sitting there for you to listen to.
> 
> ...


 
 I am not judging the breeze, but many ddc's must go. I'm not collecting them like baseball cards. 
  
 I havent received it in the mail still. But have the parts to do the job. 
  
 And I do have a PPA3 OCXO, have had it a while now. It's more or less a better option then the uptone regen. But that did nothing. So we shall see about the Intona.
 It has the SiTime custom ordered version of the S150X - the chip is marked A08VW which is intona's own code for custom order, and 1512 which is the YEAR and working MONTH it was produced.
  
  
  
 http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/cmems-oscillator-technology.pdf
 http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/368/Si501-2-3-276739.pdf
  
 more info. it's around 2picosecond jitter in most cases.
 EMI proof
 I'm not finding any info about it being "dirty"
  
 but on the other side of the Intona is an interesting chip - the SmSC or Microchip USB3320 - this supports ULPI input clock support which is how this device works from one clock, it is immune to dirty clocks anyhow, or they use the term "noisy" since it uses an integrated low jitter phase locked loop (PLL) to provide a clean 480MHz clock required for HS USB signal quality. This clock is used by the transceiver during both transmit and receive.
 http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?product=USB3320
 the specs are actually quite impressive.
  
 Technically you could power this via a battery or external linear psu. it has an excellent regulator. would require 3.1-5.5v supply input. (pin 21)
  
 so this works like so, it has two Si8660 chips, not typical, but required for full bandwidth and the complex FPGA chips.
 The USB3320 USB transceiver chip handles all the USB signalling & converts the USB protocol into ULPI protocol which is a comms standard used in internal USB comms. The ULPI protocol interfaces with the FPGA chip communicating data via 8 parallel channels & the FPGA chip changes this parallel data into 8 bit serial data which it communicates with the other FPGA chip through the isolator chip. The thing about this is that the ULPI data rate is slower than USB 480MHz data rate - it uses a 8 bit data word @ 60MHz which is a lower signal rate that can easily pass through the isolators. The 6 channel connections between FPGA & Si8660 chip is the ULPI connection (3 control signals + clock + 8bit data channel) - bi-directional so needs two isolator chips. The SiTime clock stays in perfect sync regardless of it's noisy state, since the USB3320 has a low jitter PLL that is designed to lock in and output a strong signal on the "clean" side of the board.
  
'The Si8660 has 6 channels, each capable of doing 150 Mbps. "Mbps" is meant as "million baud per second" - that is the count of symbols per time. Effectively, this can be 300 MBit/s. Multiplied to 6 channels = 1.8GBit/s.'
  
  
 this board even has an Atmel 32bit Risc Microcontroller  - which has it's own two oscillators and two phase lock loop allowing independant cpu frequency from usb frequency. Also, suprisingly supports i2s and has one 8 channel 10-bit analog to digital converter and 16-bit stereo audio Bitstream with support sample rate of up to 50khz. Just interesting component to have in this intona. 
  
 after doing calculations of the noise for the intona. something is odd.. since it has 1.8v, 3.3v and 5v sources.
  
 the regulator is .003% noise of these voltages, or 54uV for 1.8v , 99uV for 3.3v, 150uV for 5v
 either way, thats excellent for noise figures. not amazing though. Maybe i'm missing something. I will literally just have to test the noise from the output port and find out for myself.
  
 Either way, audible increases would be obvious if the 8khz spikes in data packets is reduced to -146db levels. That alone would allow for quite an improvement of the audible signal. 
  
 well, i've done enough homework tonight. and done with this intona stuff. It's quite interesting to me. but I'll start posting in other threads now.


----------



## bimmer100

robertsong said:


> Anybody have feedback to share on this Wave I/O board? Actual listening, I mean?  Looks very easy to make your own DDC box.


 
 nope, but I've ordered one, and plan to hookup HDMI i2s output board. some bellsone regulators and r-core psu.  should be a fun project. 
 The spec of this waveio is pretty much the best i've seen of ddc's. imho.
 and super compact.


----------



## ccschua

I am using the PPA V3. V2 is just miles behind V3. 
  
 PPA V3 for the mobo clock is another improvement as big as USB PPA V3. It makes my computer audio most analog. 
  
 After I had these 2 clock installed, I have tried staff like jitterbug, iFI and etc and none sounds better than V3 raw.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I am not judging the breeze, but many ddc's must go. I'm not collecting them like baseball cards.
> 
> I havent received it in the mail still. But have the parts to do the job.
> 
> ...
 

 Thanks for the extensive research - it does look interesting.  I'll follow which ever thread you post to on the Intona.
  
 I am interested in your PPA3 card if you decide to sell it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  You see I can be convinced and change my mind! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My process in improving my audio system is much different then yours - I take it incrementally.  I try and focus on only one component or area at a time.  I also rely much more on my ears and less on test equipment readings.   This has served me well over the decades.  Right now it's DDC's  and the associated USB cables (which I'm pretty much set now with the 2G) and power configurations.   I like to do just one component comparison at a time.  Live with it for awhile - be patient and see what settles in.  Maybe it's because after 30 yrs of doing this - that's what I'm comfortable with. 
  
 But over the years I learned a few things:
 1) Too many changes at one time can be confusing.  This is a horrible state - as you have no reference point any longer.  No way to tell if a SINGLE equipment change is better, worse, or just different.  My advice for what it's worth - take your time - enjoy the ride!  Live with your system unchanged for a few weeks - enjoy lots of great music - get to know how it sounds on a variety of tracks.  Once you've locked in the sound.  Try one single change - is it better?  Or just different?  If the former incorporate it into your system.
  
 2)You be the judge - let your ears be the guide.  Bench test equipment does not hear music - you do.  Does your system sound clinically excellent  - but devoid of emotion?  Are you initially impressed by the boom/sizzle (my Krell days!), but after a while the music sounds grading and harsh (my Krell days!).  Is it boring you - so warm and lush that the dynamics are just not there (my 300B days!)?  I've seen too many burn out or just get bored on this hobby.  It's a shame as it can be so rewarding.
  
 3)Set a budget and stick to it.  Don't go into debt to have a great system, that only stresses you out financially.  Go slow - a change a year, or a month.  Then just stop - and enjoy.  Your audio hobby should not be adding stress to your life - but be a stress reliever.
  
 4)Avoid Tech envy.  The feeling you don't have the best clocks, low noise regulators, the most galvanic isolation, the lowest ESR caps, i2s, DSD, 32bit audio, the newest audio break through, etc.. Most of my equipment was bought used.  Today's latest - got to have it gear - is tomorrow's Audiogon used ad.  Some things tend to not go obsolete so quickly - or wear out.  Good cables come to mind.  DDC's and PC's are the worst!  This is not a bad thing - as technology develops - the sound can get better.  I am guilty here as I do like to push the envelope - but within reason.  My DAC is 10 yrs old.   My amps the same (although I did recap with Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps a year ago).  My speakers - Maggie 1.6QR's I bought used and are 9 yrs old.  My Ref 3a Dulcett BE's are the same.
  
 5)Avoid audio magazines and blogs - like this one.  There are some days I regret ever starting this thread!  But I thought maybe some folks starting out could benefit from my experiences and expenditures.  Of course YMMV always applies.
  
 Now turn off the soldering iron, bench test equipment and just have some quality music time!
  
 Cheers


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> I am using the PPA V3. V2 is just miles behind V3.
> 
> PPA V3 for the mobo clock is another improvement as big as USB PPA V3. It makes my computer audio most analog.
> 
> After I had these 2 clock installed, I have tried staff like jitterbug, iFI and etc and none sounds better than V3 raw.


 

 Good feedback -  After the DDC rolling is complete (and it may have at this point) - I will move to trying one of these boards.


----------



## rb2013

Just an update on the Intona - from the intona thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/777678/intona-high-speed-usb-isolator/15
  


> Stay tuned... overall, I can honestly say....no change is dramatic...if any. first impression is.... not a good upgrade for the money.


 


> ok... save your money. the Intona may or may not work. at this point...hold on to your benjamins.


 
 I guess that puts that to rest. 
  
 Next week I'll do a deeper comparison of the PUC2 lite to the Breeze and DXIO.
  
 Cheers!


----------



## motberg

rb2013 said:


> Just an update on the Intona - from the intona thread: http://www.head-fi.org/t/777678/intona-high-speed-usb-isolator/15
> 
> I guess that puts that to rest.


 
 ** deleted **  adios!


----------



## Luckbad

If I could get a Gustard U12 or Breeze Audio DU-U8 at the same price, which would be ideal for coaxial output?


----------



## robertsong

It's not even close. The Breeze DU-U8 sounds like a $500+ unit while the Gustard sounds like a $200 unit. The Breeze unit has a coaxial jack that can easily be swapped for a BNC jack. Also the Breeze does not require the +5V for initalization (which allows a data only cable, if you have one). It's no contest.


----------



## rb2013

luckbad said:


> If I could get a Gustard U12 or Breeze Audio DU-U8 at the same price, which would be ideal for coaxial output?


 
 Breeze for sure - get the Talema upgrade when ordering.
  


robertsong said:


> It's not even close. The Breeze DU-U8 sounds like a $500+ unit while the Gustard sounds like a $200 unit. The Breeze unit has a coaxial jack that can easily be swapped for a BNC jack. Also the Breeze does not require the +5V for initalization (which allows a data only cable, if you have one). It's no contest.


 
 +1 Second that.


----------



## mainaman

If i may insert a shameless plug,my Breeze is up for sale.It is indeed an astonishing DDC and it totally transformed my M51 and HQ Ref,but i like my DSD collection too much and i don't have an I2S source.I will replace it with an Intona,which could be a step backwards.


----------



## Luckbad

mainaman said:


> If i may insert a shameless plug,my Breeze is up for sale.It is indeed an astonishing DDC and it totally transformed my M51 and HQ Ref,but i like my DSD collection too much and i don't have an I2S source.I will replace it with an Intona,which could be a step backwards.


 
  
 Uh oh... this might make my decision for me.
  
 Breeze _really _needs a dedicated thread.
  
 Edit: False alarm. He's in the UK.


----------



## bimmer100

mainaman said:


> If i may insert a shameless plug,my Breeze is up for sale.It is indeed an astonishing DDC and it totally transformed my M51 and HQ Ref,but i like my DSD collection too much and i don't have an I2S source.I will replace it with an Intona,which could be a step backwards.


 
 I have an industrial Intona i'm looking to sell at a discount. couple days old.


----------



## ccschua

yesterday I made another software tweak and the result is as big as changing to the DXIO. I put my audio PC from GUI mode to Core more and voila, music sounded so transparent.
  
 its like DXIO has been upgraded another step up. another tweaks that I am looking at is changing the network bridge to PPA. http://ppaproduct.blogspot.my/


----------



## FredA

ccschua said:


> yesterday I made another software tweak and the result is as big as changing to the DXIO. I put my audio PC from GUI mode to Core more and voila, music sounded so transparent.
> 
> its like DXIO has been upgraded another step up. another tweaks that I am looking at is changing the network bridge to PPA. http://ppaproduct.blogspot.my/




If ever you need galvanic isolation, i have this up for sale for 100$ or best offer, shipped. It just contains 4 high-speed isolation transfos. It will prevent ground loop and remove the common noise. It's good up to one gigabit.

https://www.reichelt.com/EMO-EN-70E/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=446&ARTICLE=145550&artnr=EMO+EN-70E&SEARCH=Network++isolator


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Breeze for sure - get the Talema upgrade when ordering.
> 
> +1 Second that.




Breeze +1

About the breeze and the tcxos it uses, there is a bit of info on ebay. Says jitter is -130db at 1kz. So, in my understanding, changing the tcxos to ndk or crystek should improve bass response.

I contacted diyinhk to ask if they would be interested in selling ndks on adapters. You never know.


----------



## BrainFood

freda said:


> Breeze +1


 
  
 The Breeze is tempting at the price.
  
 One or two reports of it being on the slightly warm/ organic side is putting me off though. The same thing is said about Supra's USB cable and it only lasted a few hours in my set up. My speakers are a little on the warm side, hence the preference for a DDC with an airy signature.


----------



## jmudrick

I may have missed it but did anyone try the Corning USB > converter > Remedy lineup? I use the Remedy between my Chromecast Audio and Audio-Gd Reference 5 and it makes a tremendous difference. Considering the Breeze and it sure would be handy to just have to get the Corning then run both inputs into the Remedy.


----------



## FredA

brainfood said:


> The Breeze is tempting at the price.
> 
> One or two reports of it being on the slightly warm/ organic side is putting me off though. The same thing is said about Supra's USB cable and it only lasted a few hours in my set up. My speakers are a little on the warm side, hence the preference for a DDC with an airy signature.


 
 Well, indeed I think it is rather on the warm side. But in a good way. It still has very good highs. 
  
 Not sure trying to fix tonal balance with a ddc is the way to go. Once jitter is eliminated, you are left with the best signal possible, might not be the balance you wish for. I prefer swapping interconnects.


----------



## BrainFood

freda said:


> Well, indeed I think it is rather on the warm side. But in a good way. It still has very good highs.
> 
> Not sure trying to fix tonal balance with a ddc is the way to go. Once jitter is eliminated, you are left with the best signal possible, might not be the balance you wish for. I prefer swapping interconnects.


 
  
 I totally take what you say but I'd still rather a DDC that isn't warm (good way or not). Will keep an eye out on this thread for other recommendations (with HDMI output)


----------



## FredA

brainfood said:


> I totally take what you say but I'd still rather a DDC that isn't warm (good way or not). Will keep an eye out on this thread for other recommendations (with HDMI output)


 
 Get your point, in addition, the breeze has no hdmi which force you to use a very short cable.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Breeze +1
> 
> About the breeze and the tcxos it uses, there is a bit of info on ebay. Says jitter is -130db at 1kz. So, in my understanding, changing the tcxos to ndk or crystek should improve bass response.
> 
> I contacted diyinhk to ask if they would be interested in selling ndks on adapters. You never know.


 

 Yes I agree!  NDK SD's on std 14 DIP adapter would be a winner.  I hope you're successful.  I can't believe Crystek doesn't either.
  
 The clocks you see in all these Chinese DDC's are OEM JYEC clocks - if you order enough I guess they'll print your companies logo on the cover.
  
 I have used the Vanguard version of these in other mod projects.  Not quite sure if the 'gold' version is any different the the Gustard U12 'silver' version.
 I have seen -125db and -130db @1Khz quoted - it would be nice to get readings at different frequenices - or a plot.  Interested to the the 100Hz and 10kHz numbers.
  
 http://www.chinafronter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/VCTCXO-SMD5032新.pdf
 This one looks different - but is Chinese TXCO these are the readings:
 -115db@100Hz
 -135db@1kHz
 -148db@10kHz
  
 I believe it comes in three versions, with various degrees of stability: 0.5+-ppm, 1.0+-ppm, 2.0+-ppm
  
 All very good numbers for stability - but as with all crystals they will degrade over time and decease in stability.
  
 also voltage variations and tempurature changes will cause variations.  So best to keep you DDC running and 'warm' and use high quality power supplies and filtering


----------



## rb2013

mainaman said:


> If i may insert a shameless plug,my Breeze is up for sale.It is indeed an astonishing DDC and it totally transformed my M51 and HQ Ref,but i like my DSD collection too much and i don't have an I2S source.I will replace it with an Intona,which could be a step backwards.


 

 You can run DSD files with a PCM converter over SPDIF or AES.  Most DSD releases are PCM conversions anyway.
  
 PS Do you have the Talema version?


----------



## rb2013

ccschua said:


> yesterday I made another software tweak and the result is as big as changing to the DXIO. I put my audio PC from GUI mode to Core more and voila, music sounded so transparent.
> 
> its like DXIO has been upgraded another step up. another tweaks that I am looking at is changing the network bridge to PPA. http://ppaproduct.blogspot.my/


 

 Nice!  Any step by step?  Foobar?


----------



## rb2013

brainfood said:


> The Breeze is tempting at the price.
> 
> One or two reports of it being on the slightly warm/ organic side is putting me off though. The same thing is said about Supra's USB cable and it only lasted a few hours in my set up. My speakers are a little on the warm side, hence the preference for a DDC with an airy signature.


 

 You will LOVE the DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a! - if you can live with SPDIF only.  The PUC2 Lite would be in that camp as well - AES only.  The DXIO has another layer of detail and transparency over the Breeze - which is several layers better then the Gustard.
  
 The DXIO needs a decent power supply.
  
 Which USB cable?  The LightSpeed 2G is a pretty good stepup over the Supra in transparency as well.


----------



## robertsong

brainfood said:


> I totally take what you say but I'd still rather a DDC that isn't warm (good way or not). Will keep an eye out on this thread for other recommendations (with HDMI output)


 
  
 I would not characterize the Breeze unit as "warm" as in slightly rolled off highs and a mid-bass bump as some headphones have. That definitely does not apply here. The "tonality" is very balanced top to bottom with excellent freq extention. I think the key component in your own system (as far as matching) will be your DAC. Speakers should not make much difference at all. All said, the only way you will know for sure is to try a few out. My hunch is you will be plenty happy with either the Breeze or DXIO. Although you may very well prefer the sound of the DXIO after some critical listening. 
  
 Which DAC are you using?


----------



## robertsong

rb2013 said:


> The DXIO has another layer of detail and transparency over the Breeze - which is several layers better then the Gustard.


 
  
 +1
  
 I agree with that. And the word "airy" would definitely apply more to DXIO than the Breeze (by a long shot).


----------



## Luckbad

I'm down to Breeze Audio DU-U8 vs. DXIO Pro3A as well. If I'm not immediately getting a nice PSU with either, what are the differences?
  
 I only need Coax for my Audio-GD NFB-2.32. I'm primarily looking for cleaner signal to the DAC than stock USB gives me.


----------



## mainaman

rb2013 said:


> You can run DSD files with a PCM converter over SPDIF or AES.  Most DSD releases are PCM conversions anyway.
> 
> PS Do you have the Talema version?


 
 Yes,i bought a Talema version last year.Unfortunately DSD to PCM is way too inferior in my experience and the definitive digital versions of many albums are on SACD.My latest DAC,Teac UD-503 supports DOP over SPDIF and Optical as well,but the Breeze doesn't.


----------



## rb2013

mainaman said:


> Yes,i bought a Talema version last year.Unfortunately DSD to PCM is way too inferior in my experience and the definitive digital versions of many albums are on SACD.My latest DAC,Teac UD-503 supports DOP over SPDIF and Optical as well,but the Breeze doesn't.


 

 Really -  no DOP over SPDIF?  Even for DSD64?  Usually with XMOS based USB devices you need i2s for DSD128 and DSD256.

 Are you burning your SACD's as DSD files?
  
 This is what I did - used my APL DAC NWOjr to play the SACDs to analog outputs - that went to a ProAudio ADC (Analog to digital converter) Using the EMU1616M (excellent 32bit AKM ADCs) that I recorded at 32 bit 176K PCM using Wavelab 6.0.  The results were excellent.  I have a few albums in Redbood, SACD(recorded to ultra high PCM)and vinyl (very high end analog rig (like $25K)) digitalized the same way.  No doubt Vinyl is 1st, SACD 2nd, Redbook 3rd.


----------



## rb2013

luckbad said:


> I'm down to Breeze Audio DU-U8 vs. DXIO Pro3A as well. If I'm not immediately getting a nice PSU with either, what are the differences?
> 
> I only need Coax for my Audio-GD NFB-2.32. I'm primarily looking for cleaner signal to the DAC than stock USB gives me.


 

 The DXIO stock is beaten by a stock DU-U8.  The DU is smoother and more dynamic - the DXIO a bit more detail and 'air'.  But add a good LPS to the DXIO - Wowzer!


----------



## BrainFood

rb2013 said:


> You will LOVE the DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a! - if you can live with SPDIF only.  The PUC2 Lite would be in that camp as well - AES only.  The DXIO has another layer of detail and transparency over the Breeze - which is several layers better then the Gustard.
> 
> The DXIO needs a decent power supply.


 
  
 Okay thanks, will bear the DXIO in mind. I have an old Stereovox HDXV spdif cable around somewhere (1 metre though).  
  


robertsong said:


> I would not characterize the Breeze unit as "warm" as in slightly rolled off highs and a mid-bass bump as some headphones have. That definitely does not apply here. The "tonality" is very balanced top to bottom with excellent freq extention. I think the key component in your own system (as far as matching) will be your DAC. Speakers should not make much difference at all. All said, the only way you will know for sure is to try a few out. My hunch is you will be plenty happy with either the Breeze or DXIO. Although you may very well prefer the sound of the DXIO after some critical listening.
> 
> Which DAC are you using?


 
  
 Gustard x20. The DXIO sounds more my cup of tea because detail and transparency are characteristics I like.


----------



## robertsong

Yup, I think you're right. Hopefully you won't struggle with 176.4 and 192khz sample rates like I did. rb2013 thinks the problem has to do with Jplay, but in my case I couldn't get them to work regardless. I was hoping to hear more feedback from others about this.


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Yup, I think you're right. Hopefully you won't struggle with 176.4 and 192khz sample rates like I did. rb2013 thinks the problem has to do with Jplay, but in my case I couldn't get them to work regardless. I was hoping to hear more feedback from others about this.


 

 So they wouldn't work without JPlay running? Well I have a second one on the way - will see how that fairs.  Maybe the USB cable?  or SPDIF cable?
  
 It is the only DDC so far that had any trouble with JPlay so far.  I'm running 6.1 and maybe the 3.2 driver (that's the stock DXIO driver) was not compatible.  The other DDC's were running 2.23.


----------



## robertsong

rb2013 said:


> So they wouldn't work without JPlay running?


 
  
  
  
 Correct. And I tried WASAPI, ASIO, and DS as well as my usual KS in both JRMC and Foobar. The DIYHK support person got back to me and could not relate to the problem, therefore came to the conclusion that it was defective. So I thought it was a wise move to send it back. I may try a second unit, but I'm awaiting more feedback. Maybe we can pinpoint the problem, but I don't think my problem had anything to do with Jplay. Just a hunch.
  
 Since I have been hard pressed to tell much difference between 2X and 4X sample rates in the past it's not something to get hung up on, imo. Downsampled 192khz (to 96khz)worked perfectly.


----------



## mainaman

Hmm,I havent tried DOP from Breeze's SPDIF,i just went by the advertised specs.I may try it when the UD-503 arrives.Actually i think i tried it with the HQ Ref and it didnt work,requiring conversion to 176.4.I have got lots of original DSD files and this week i am expecting my first ever turntable(Sony's top Biotracer) to arrive as well.


----------



## ccschua

rb2013 said:


> So they wouldn't work without JPlay running? Well I have a second one on the way - will see how that fairs.  Maybe the USB cable?  or SPDIF cable?
> 
> It is the only DDC so far that had any trouble with JPlay so far.  I'm running 6.1 and maybe the 3.2 driver (that's the stock DXIO driver) was not compatible.  The other DDC's were running 2.23.


 
  
 so far my unit is playing fine with JPlay in dual PC mode. I had the audio pc in server 2012 switch to core mode without any issue.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Yes I agree!  NDK
> 
> 
> All very good numbers for stability - but as with all crystals they will degrade over time and decease in stability.
> ...




No luck with diyinhk:

"Thank You for interesting in our product,

The store contains all current available item on sale.

Welcome to our store
Thanks & Best Regards"

Not sure how to interpret all those clock figures, for instance i assumed a figure like -130db at 1kz meant the actual frequency contents at that offset, but in fact the units are db/hz, which means a slope.

I was checking this cie last night, their ocxos seem quite excellent, but not as good as ndk:

http://www.conwin.com/datasheets/cx/cx123.pdf


----------



## robertsong

ccschua said:


> so far my unit is playing fine with JPlay in dual PC mode. I had the audio pc in server 2012 switch to core mode without any issue.


 

 We are talking about the 176.4khz and 192khz sample rates specifically. Have you tried them?


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Correct. And I tried WASAPI, ASIO, and DS as well as my usual KS in both JRMC and Foobar. The DIYHK support person got back to me and could not relate to the problem, therefore came to the conclusion that it was defective. So I thought it was a wise move to send it back. I may try a second unit, but I'm awaiting more feedback. Maybe we can pinpoint the problem, but I don't think my problem had anything to do with Jplay. Just a hunch.
> 
> Since I have been hard pressed to tell much difference between 2X and 4X sample rates in the past it's not something to get hung up on, imo. Downsampled 192khz (to 96khz)worked perfectly.


 
 I have a mulitiude of hi res files - including DxD (352/24) and DSD128 from 2L Nordic Sound.  My digtialized LPs, SACD's and DVD-A's at 32float/176 and upsample all redbook to 96k (DAC60 DAC) or 192k (APL NWOjr DAC) using SoX.  The native hi rez I disengage the SoX upsampler.  No issues with any of them.  In fact I have play lists that combine all of the above from album to album - no issues.  Of course the DSD are run with the Foobar DSD to PCM converter to good effect.  My APL NWO DACjr is actually build on a stripped down Denon 3910 - so it can spin SACDs and DVD-A's.  I use it almost exclusively as a DAC - as it has a very high quaility SPDIF coax reciver and WBT NexGen Cu connector.  Eight 32-bit AKM DACs per channel, Lunduhl transformer coupling (no coupling caps) ECC99 class A output, superclock, 4 separate linear power supplies, etc...  It was $6.5k when Alex Peychkev was building them - I bought the last and latest version (32bit AKM DACs).
  
 So I can directly, on the fly (remote switching), compare the actual SACD to the digitalized version run from the PC using foobar.  They are like 99% of each other - mostly can't tell the difference.  So why bother with the spinner?
  


mainaman said:


> Hmm,I havent tried DOP from Breeze's SPDIF,i just went by the advertised specs.I may try it when the UD-503 arrives.Actually i think i tried it with the HQ Ref and it didnt work,requiring conversion to 176.4.I have got lots of original DSD files and this week i am expecting my first ever turntable(Sony's top Biotracer) to arrive as well.


 
 Congrats on the turntable!  This was the system I used to archive my LPs - sold it.  Just the Dynavector XV1-s and Benz Ebony LP carts where $10K.  Now running a small analog setup in my office - Ortofon 2M Black on a vintage modded Dual CS721. Not bad actually!  When I'm in a LP spinning mood.

  
  


ccschua said:


> so far my unit is playing fine with JPlay in dual PC mode. I had the audio pc in server 2012 switch to core mode without any issue.


 
 I'm running Win 7.  So that might be the difference with JPlay.  I actually like not having to use JPlay -  it had long latency.  I do run it when using the Breeze.
  


freda said:


> No luck with diyinhk:
> 
> "Thank You for interesting in our product,
> 
> ...


 
 Here is the plot for the NDK SD (red) and SB(blue smooth) vs OXCO(green) and Crystek CCHD-957(jagged blue) (from NDK's website):


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I have a mulitiude of hi res files - including DxD (352/24) and DSD128 from 2L Nordic Sound.
> 
> Here is the plot for the NDK SD (red) and SB(blue smooth) vs OXCO(green) and Crystek CCHD-957(jagged blue) (from NDK's website):




I have got some info about those dbc/hz numbers. The /hz means its a power density curve, so for an interval of 1hz on the curve, you get roughly the number on the vertical axis as corresponding power, compared to the clock's frequency.

Another consideration about actual jitter is how these figures translate with a divided clock signal, because the actual playback frequency is a small fraction of the crystal's, for instance 1/512 for a 48kz signal into the breeze.

From what i could gather, the jitter, measured as a time interval error, stays the same, which makes sense.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I have got some info about those dbc/hz numbers. The /hz means its a power density curve, so for an interval of 1hz on the curve, you get roughly the number on the vertical axis as corresponding power, compared to the clock's frequency.
> 
> Another consideration about actual jitter is how these figures translate with a divided clock signal, because the actual playback frequency is a small fraction of the crystal's, for instance 1/512 for a 48kz signal into the breeze.
> 
> From what i could gather, the jitter, measured as a time interval error, stays the same, which makes sense.


 

 Well phase noise is different then 'time' jitter.  Here is a great SiTime whitepaper that explains:
 http://www.sitime.com/support2/documents/AN10007-Jitter-and-measurement.pdf
  


> Types of Jitter - Jitter can be measured in a number of ways; the following are the major types of jitter: • Period Jitter • Cycle to Cycle Period Jitter • Long Term Jitter • Phase Jitter • Time Interval Error (TIE)


 


> * 2.4 Phase Jitter Phase noise is usually described as either a set of noise values at different frequency offsets (e.g., -60 dBc/Hz at 20KHz and -95 dBc/Hz at 10MHz), or as a continuous noise plot over a range of frequencies.* *Phase jitter is the integration of phase noises over a certain spectrum and expressed in seconds*. In a square wave, most of the energies are located at the carrier frequency. However, some signal energies are “leaked-out” over a range of frequencies on both sides of the carrier. Phase jitter is the amount of phase noise energy contained between two offset frequencies relative to the carrier (fc). Figure 6 is an unfiltered phase noise plot and the shaded areas represent the phase jitter between frequencies f1 and f2. 10,000 cycles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Smart Timing Choice™ 8 SiT-AN10007 Rev 1.2 Cl


 
  
 From the Silabs whitepaper:
  
 http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/Clock-Division-WP.pdf
  


> *Introduction* - As clock speeds and communication channels run at ever higher frequencies, *accurate jitter and phase noise measurements become more important, even as they become more difficult and expensive to manage.* While measuring ultra low-jitter devices and equipment, the engineer is continually required to ask whether the measurement values are the result of the device under test (DUT) or if they are due to the equipment being used. The engineer is also constantly looking for methods of expanding the reach of the equipment at hand. Here are some practical pointers and observations to assist in situations where clock signals have been divided down from higher frequency voltage-controlled oscillators (VCOs).


 
 They raise important issues with measuring phase noise at low frequencies.
  


> *Figure 6:* Phase Noise Plots for Different Divisor Values The six curves are essentially the same but with a vertical separation of 6 dBc/Hz. The 6dB separation is relatively constant over all offset frequencies and divisor values with one or two exceptions. On the right-hand edge side of the plot where the offset from the clock (carrier) is at its largest, the relative vertical offsets between the curves are compressed. On the right-hand side of the plot, the compression increases as the clock frequency is reduced. This compression becomes more pronounced as the clock frequency decreases and as the phase noise curve values become lower. The compression occurs because the noise floor of the Agilent model E5052B Signal Source Analyzer is getting close in value to the phase noise (jitter generation) of the Si5324 IC. *Note that the noise floor is only an issue because of the combined effect of the ultra-low jitter of the Si5324 and the low carrier frequency.*


 


> *Instrument Noise Floor and Phase Noise Integration -* *As mentioned earlier, when measuring the phase noise of very low-jitter clocks at low clock frequencies, the instrument noise floor can become the limiting factor of a measurement. *_*At some point, you are measuring your equipment, not the device under test.*_ Even though the phase noise curves are all getting monotonically smaller as the clock frequency decreases, the RMS edge jitter remains almost constant because the phase noise integration process uses the clock period to scale the RMS jitter values. To illustrate how this occurs, let’s look at the process of phase noise integration to produce an RMS jitter value. Most modern phase noise equipment produces a file that that has two columns (typically a .CSV file). One of the two columns gives the frequency offset from the clock (or carrier) frequency in Hertz. The other column gives the phase noise values at that offset frequency in dBc/Hz. In this manner, the two columns contain data point pairs that describe the phase noise at a given offset from the clock frequency. The process of integration involves summing up the area under the curve for all of the frequency offset points after converting the dBc/Hz values to linear values in the following manner:


 


> *Aliasing* - The other cause of increasing RMS jitter values with decreasing clock frequency is aliasing. For every division of two, the upper half of a phase noise plot is aliased down into the new lower clock frequency phase plot. Since phase noise is usually higher close to the clock (carrier) frequency and drops off as the offset from the clock frequency increases, the amount of phase noise that is being aliased down is usually relatively small. *However, when dividing by large numbers, the effect becomes cumulative and significant.* Referring back to Figure 1, the difference between the 1280 MHz and the 640 MHz curves is a constant 6 dB across the entire plot. As a result, one would expect that the increased RMS jitter values for the two curves shown in Table 2 are due entirely to alias and not to the instrument noise floor. The following spectra and phase noise plots illustrate aliasing. Note that the signals in this example use AM and are not what would be expected in a typical application. Rather, as the block diagram in Figure 8 indicates, they are used here to specifically illustrate this phenomenon.


 


> *Conclusion* - *When measuring very low jitter clocks with low frequency values, the instrumentation noise floor can become a limiting factor.* When the clock being measured is divided down from a higher frequency clock, a common technique to avoid this problem is to lower the value of the divider so that the measurement is made at a higher frequency. While this technique is commonly used, it will remove the jitter contribution that will result from higher-frequency jitter components being aliased down by the division. Although the resulting RMS jitter values may be artificially lower, this is an acceptable approach in applications where the far-out phase noise is relatively small. When measuring low frequency clocks with anything more than very low jitter, the use of time domain equipment is recommended because the measurement can always be made at the actual, desired output frequency, no matter how low the clock frequency may be.


 
 So phase noise numbers below say 100Hz should be pretty much ignored.  Notice the outperformance of the CCHD-957 at frequenices above 2.5kHz.  Outperforming many OXCO's.  And well in the audio band.
  
 I have found numbers for the JYEC OEM TXCO:
 http://www.diytrade.com/china/pd/5042580/Supply_warming_crystal_TCXO_temperature_OCXO.html
  


> Technical specifications
> Frequency range: 1.000 ~ 160MHz
> Frequency-temperature stability: ± 0.5ppm @ 0 ℃ ~ 50 ℃
> And load characteristics of the output: Sine OR TTL
> ...


 
 So at say 1kHz the CCHD-957 (22.5792 Mhz) is -148db and at 10kHz -168db, at 100kHz -168db.
 http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/clock/CCHD-957.pdf
  
 Funny DIYinHK used to say in their ads that the NDK SD outperformed the 957 at all frequenices of the audible band!  I guess they can't read a log scale.  Many pages ago I argued this point with Alex ad-nauseum.
  
  
 Oh wait they still do!
 http://www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/35-ndk-nz2520sd-20ppm-ultra-low-phase-noise-oscillator.html


> For easier comparsion(lower is better), we overlay the two phase noise graph at the same scale, under 25khz(human listenable range) nz2520sd(red line) is better, over 25khz(human unlistenable range) crystek 957 is better.


 
 Oh really guys????  Here is the chart they show: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
 Now since decible is a power factor, each -3dB is roughly a halving of the noise.
  
*So the JYEC TXCO vs the CCHD-957 at say 10kHz has a difference of -28dB!!  That is orders and orders of magnitude less noise.*
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel
  

dB​power ratio​amplitude ratio​100​  10 000 000 000​ ​100 000​ ​90​1 000 000 000​ ​31 623​ ​80​100 000 000​ ​10 000​ ​70​10 000 000​ ​3 162​ ​60​1 000 000​ ​1 000​ ​50​100 000​ ​316​.2​40​10 000​ ​100​ ​30​1 000​ ​31​.62​20​100​ ​10​ ​10​10​ ​3​.162​6​3​.981​1​.995 (~2)​3​1​.995 (~2)​1​.413​1​1​.259​1​.122​0​1​ ​1​ ​−1​0​.794​0​.891​−3​0​.501 (~1/2)​0​.708​−6​0​.251​0​.501 (~1/2)​−10​0​.1​0​.316 2​−20​0​.01​0​.1​−30​0​.001​0​.031 62​−40​0​.000 1​0​.01​−50​0​.000 01​0​.003 162​−60​0​.000 001​0​.001​−70​0​.000 000 1​0​.000 316 2​−80​0​.000 000 01​0​.000 1​−90​0​.000 000 001​0​.000 031 62 ​  −100​0​.000 000 000 1​0​.000 01​An example scale showing power ratios _x_ and amplitude ratios √_x_ and dB equivalents 10 log10 _x_. It is easier to grasp and compare 2- or 3-digit numbers than to compare up to 10 digits.​


----------



## murphythecat

What, breeze audio sent me two identical du u8 with talema transformer for the price of one!
 the only difference is that one unit as a ventilation on top of the box and the other do not, but both are identical with talema transformer!
 i guess they made a error!


----------



## Luckbad

murphythecat said:


> What, breeze audio sent me two identical du u8 with talema transformer for the price of one!
> the only difference is that one unit as a ventilation on top of the box and the other do not, but both are identical with talema transformer!
> i guess they made a error!


 
  
 Sell me one for $50!


----------



## Jerryfan

murphythecat said:


> What, breeze audio sent me two identical du u8 with talema transformer for the price of one!
> the only difference is that one unit as a ventilation on top of the box and the other do not, but both are identical with talema transformer!
> i guess they made a error!




You should do a double blind test with both and report back. Something tells me the ventilated unit will have a more "airy" presentation and better transparency.


----------



## bimmer100

where did you buy them? I may order again, but my seller sold me a defective breeze...and it was SUPER expensive. would prefer to spend less.


----------



## rb2013

jerryfan said:


> You should do a double blind test with both and report back. Something tells me the ventilated unit will have a more "airy" presentation and better transparency.


 
 My unit with the Talema has the vents as well.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> Well phase noise is different then 'time' jitter.  Here is a great SiTime whitepaper that explains:
> http://www.sitime.com/support2/documents/AN10007-Jitter-and-measurement.pdf
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I am very rusted. Studied EE but am a software engineer now. 
  
 I am getting serious about making my own DDC starting from a WaveIO board. Checking for parts on ebay. Can be built for around 200usd with just an i2s output. The WaveIO includes the ndk clocks and galvanic isolation. I would use a nice r-core and 70uv regulator. Probably pass-thru RJ45 and USB connector from Neutrik. Inside, i would just wire a shielded usb cable and RJ45. The usb cable would just have to be plug in 2 sockets, no assembling. Would have to fit a flat cable connector on one end of an rj45 cable i have in hand.


----------



## Jerryfan

rb2013 said:


> My unit with the Talema has the vents as well.




Yeah.....it was a joke.


----------



## robertsong

freda said:


> I am very rusted. Studied EE but am a software engineer now.
> 
> I am getting serious about making my own DDC starting from a WaveIO board. Checking for parts on ebay. Can be built for around 200usd with just an i2s output. The WaveIO includes the ndk clocks and galvanic isolation. I would use a nice r-core and 70uv regulator. Probably pass-thru RJ45 and USB connector from Neutrik. Inside, i would just wire a shielded usb cable and RJ45. The usb cable would just have to be plug in 2 sockets, no assembling. Would have to fit a flat cable connector on one end of an rj45 cable i have in hand.


 
  
 Keep us updated on this project. I'm thinking the WaveIO as well. Although spdif out for me.
  
 Btw, anybody know if the WaveIO board requires the +5V for initialization??


----------



## FredA

robertsong said:


> Keep us updated on this project. I'm thinking the WaveIO as well. Although spdif out for me.
> 
> Btw, anybody know if the WaveIO board requires the +5V for initialization??




I have no idea. 

I will keep you posted. Should not happen before a couple of months however. Am finishing an amp project now. But it looks very promising and i am very motivated to do it.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I am very rusted. Studied EE but am a software engineer now.
> 
> I am getting serious about making my own DDC starting from a WaveIO board. Checking for parts on ebay. Can be built for around 200usd with just an i2s output. The WaveIO includes the ndk clocks and galvanic isolation. I would use a nice r-core and 70uv regulator. Probably pass-thru RJ45 and USB connector from Neutrik. Inside, i would just wire a shielded usb cable and RJ45. The usb cable would just have to be plug in 2 sockets, no assembling. Would have to fit a flat cable connector on one end of an rj45 cable i have in hand.


 
 Yes that looks interesting.   But would maybe go Bimmer's route with Belleson regulators and linear power supply.  It a very nice looking board - reminds of Twisted Pair nice stuff.
  


jerryfan said:


> Yeah.....it was a joke.


 
 Now I get it - was wondering how vents make it sound better! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


robertsong said:


> Keep us updated on this project. I'm thinking the WaveIO as well. Although spdif out for me.
> 
> Btw, anybody know if the WaveIO board requires the +5V for initialization??


 
 Maybe just have it run off a 5VDC external power supply.


----------



## rb2013

The Cerious Graphene interconnect arrived today - a another huge winner!  Cold out of the box at least as good as the incredible Aural Thrills AC Tube BCS interconnects.  SAme amazing transparency and air - with just a tad more bass depth.  Same perfect naturally rich tone.  This runs between my DAC and amp on my main system.
  
 Here is the kicker - I paid $800 for The AT AC Tube BCS IC system about a year ago (a 1.5 meter) - they're now $1000(1 meter).  Then rolled about a half dozen different power cords and 12au7's - they each made a small difference.  Even though the tube only powers the cables shielding - cable works fine with the shield power turned off - even no tube in place and the shield cable connected.  Doesn't sound as good as when tubed and powered though - kinda flatish.  This replaced a long line of IC's I've had in this system including: Nordost Valhalla, Synegistic Research Tesla Apex, Tellurium Q Black, etc...
  
 The Cerious Tech Graphene RCA IC 1.5M lists for $649 - bought it for $250 off one of his ads on Audiogon.  Super bargain.
 http://www.auralthrillsaudio.com

  


> This Tube Powered BCS is a reality machine.  Compared to my other active cable this is without a doubt the best sounding. As usual it is much more difficult and expensive to make. It uses house voltage to power the shield. It is an actual tube amplifier in all respects including 12.6v filament transformer and 240v power transformer. The AC filament gives it a very rich tube sound. The refined power supply activating the shield adds more space than any other model I make. Besides tube rolling you can also change the power cord on this model giving you the ultimate control.
> 
> So how does it sound? Like a cable which is a good tube amplifier instead of the low tech solid state offerings of other companies. Extended highs and lows with imaging that only an active cable can bring.  I dare you to compare this cable to the finest out there. The shield is charged to 80 volts by a 12au7 tube amplifier which is coupled to the signal lines via some specifically manufactured resistors. Musicians step out of your speakers and into your room. Uncanny is the only way to describe it. At times I have been startled by sounds contained in recordings that seemed alive and in my room. Try out your favorite NOS tubes and you will hear the differences just like in amps. Change to your favorite power cord and you will again hear the difference just like in your amp. Nothing else like it.
> The signal lines are connected to the shield by a pair of specifically manufactured resistors. What is created is a pseudo balanced interconnect, as the shield is effectively neutral relative to both conductors. Relative to the equipment ground, the shield sees half the signal voltage swing. Einstein would ponder the following question, what if the wires do not know that ground is ground? The results are stunning!
> ...


 
 Synergistic Research had some thing similar called the EnigmA Valve Power for their Active shielding cables - $11,000 the actual interconnect cable extra!

  
  
  
 With some run time the Cerious should get even better - Nice work there guys!


----------



## ccschua

My latest setup in computer audio has been improved again.
  
 since my NUC is power by LPS, I have the network cable connect directly to audio pc instead to the switch. it sounded more coherant. can switch on real loud on james howard newton and tin pan alley.


----------



## mainaman

rb2013 said:


> I have a mulitiude of hi res files - including DxD (352/24) and DSD128 from 2L Nordic Sound.  My digtialized LPs, SACD's and DVD-A's at 32float/176 and upsample all redbook to 96k (DAC60 DAC) or 192k (APL NWOjr DAC) using SoX.  The native hi rez I disengage the SoX upsampler.  No issues with any of them.  In fact I have play lists that combine all of the above from album to album - no issues.  Of course the DSD are run with the Foobar DSD to PCM converter to good effect.  My APL NWO DACjr is actually build on a stripped down Denon 3910 - so it can spin SACDs and DVD-A's.  I use it almost exclusively as a DAC - as it has a very high quaility SPDIF coax reciver and WBT NexGen Cu connector.  Eight 32-bit AKM DACs per channel, Lunduhl transformer coupling (no coupling caps) ECC99 class A output, superclock, 4 separate linear power supplies, etc...  It was $6.5k when Alex Peychkev was building them - I bought the last and latest version (32bit AKM DACs).
> 
> So I can directly, on the fly (remote switching), compare the actual SACD to the digitalized version run from the PC using foobar.  They are like 99% of each other - mostly can't tell the difference.  So why bother with the spinner?
> 
> ...




You had a X800?I have never had a turntable so it will be interesting to compare it with the Teac.I bought an AT OC9/III cart and a preloved Anatek MC1 stage(850 GDP new),probably not bad for a first setup.

BTW,i realised that i have tried DSD only from the Breeze's Toslink output,not from the SPDIF.You have mentioned DOP128 via coaxial.I may keep the Breeze after all...


----------



## abartels

@rb2013
 Do those speakers really need subwoofers?


----------



## bimmer100

where is the best source to get a breeze duu8. the one I ordered was defective. crackles and pops. 
 i'm returning it, but would like to pay less. Anybody?


----------



## auvgeek

bimmer100 said:


> where is the best source to get a breeze duu8. the one I ordered was defective. crackles and pops.
> i'm returning it, but would like to pay less. Anybody?


 
 Where did you buy it from?
  
 The Breeze store on Aliexpress seems like the best place, but I can't report back yet as my unit was delayed by the storm that hit the (US) east coast. Should be delivered tomorrow.
  
 Actually, it looks like they aren't accepting orders anymore...maybe they're closed in preparations for the Chinese New Year? Anyway, here's a link: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Breeze-audio-Best-pure-USB-decoder-XMOS-U8-DU-U8-DAC-Asynchronous-USB-coax-fiber-XMOS/32499738639.html
  
 Edit: I paid $123 shipped for the Talema version. Hope it isn't defective!


----------



## rb2013

mainaman said:


> You had a X800?I have never had a turntable so it will be interesting to compare it with the Teac.I bought an AT OC9/III cart and a preloved Anatek MC1 stage(850 GDP new),probably not bad for a first setup.
> 
> BTW,i realised that i have tried DSD only from the Breeze's Toslink output,not from the SPDIF.You have mentioned DOP128 via coaxial.I may keep the Breeze after all...


 

 No that was a VPI Super Scout Master Signature - and I had the optional SDS speed controler.  That outter stainless steel ring holds the LP flat - the center wieght is like 5 lbs.  Has VTA adjustment as well.  Tonearm wired with Nordost Valhalla cable.  Ran the amazing Dynavector XV1-S.


  
  
 Nice starting rig!  The Ortofon 2M Red is a bargain at $99.  The totl 2M Black is outstanding!
  
 Yes ditch the SPDIF optical - Good Luck!


----------



## bimmer100

I found the duu8 at that link but also noticed it hasn't been for sale for quite some time.
I have not received any reply from the seller either.
I would really like to have a breeze to test and mod. 
Doesn't rb2013 have two? Maybe you could sell me one?  you're happy with the pro3a right? 
I will likely pass it on after I've tested t fairly and modded it too


----------



## rb2013

abartels said:


> @rb2013
> Do those speakers really need subwoofers?


 

 Well the Talon Firebirds have 11inch Focal woofers and 300lb composite cabinets - they have excellent bass - but I had them placed 6 ft from the back wall.  As with any speaker the further from the rear wall the less bass room re-enforcement.  So the twin Velodyne DD-12s did the trick.  The DD-12's have a unique in room tuning system.  A built in tone generator and comes with a high quality mic.  Using an active parametric eq - you can pretty much elminate any room nodes - and smoothly intregrate with the main speakers. So for the 100Hz to 10Hz range the Velodynes were killer good.  1500 watt amps built into each.  On drum transients would rattle the dishes in the kitchen on the floor above.  Wifey loved that!


----------



## rb2013

auvgeek said:


> Where did you buy it from?
> 
> The Breeze store on Aliexpress seems like the best place, but I can't report back yet as my unit was delayed by the storm that hit the (US) east coast. Should be delivered tomorrow.
> 
> ...


 

 Maybe QC issues?


----------



## auvgeek

bimmer100 said:


> I found the duu8 at that link but also noticed it hasn't been for sale for quite some time.
> I have not received any reply from the seller either.
> I would really like to have a breeze to test and mod.
> Doesn't rb2013 have two? Maybe you could sell me one?
> ...


 
 Or if you can't find one for sale stateside, you could potentially borrow mine (assuming it arrives and isn't defective). We can maybe even arrange a local pickup when I'm in your neck of the woods in 3 weeks, and you can keep it for a month while I'm on my honeymoon. PM if you're interested.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I found the duu8 at that link but also noticed it hasn't been for sale for quite some time.
> I have not received any reply from the seller either.
> I would really like to have a breeze to test and mod.
> Doesn't rb2013 have two? Maybe you could sell me one?
> ...


 

 Hi, I have two but one is with the Bingzi transformer (as the pioneer on this unit - wasn't even aware back then they made a Talema verison), and the other Talema.  I will keep the Talema to do some modding on.  So you can buy the Bingzi version - PM for price.  If not I'll just keep it for some other mods like cap rolling.
  
 I still think a modded Breeze may be the killer of killer great DDC's.  Not much to mod on the DXIO - except better LPS power supplies and maybe a better SPDIF coax RCA connector (I have a WBT NexGen Cu for that)


----------



## auvgeek

Well, my Breeze arrived today. Doesn't seem to work at all via AES. Really bummed. Does anyone have any ideas about what could be wrong?
  
 Peeled a 110 v sticker off the back, so I hope that was set correctly. No popping or anything when I plugged it in.
  
 Power and USB lights on the front come on and my computer (Macbook Pro) recognizes it, but my DAC (vintage Theta Pro Basic III) doesn't recognize it and no sound plays. I don't have a coax cable, but I guess I could buy one and check that output.
  
 Edit: I'm playing 44.1 kHz via spotify, JRiver, iTunes, etc. These all work fine with the Gustard U12 via AES to the DAC.
  
 Edit2: The problem seems to occur as soon as the USB cord is plugged in. Optical out is glowing and the DAC says it's locked onto the AES signal until the USB cable is plugged into the computer.
  
 Final edit: It appears the problem was in software. I'm not sure what exactly I did to fix it, but it works now.


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> where is the best source to get a breeze duu8. the one I ordered was defective. crackles and pops.
> i'm returning it, but would like to pay less. Anybody?




I have got mine from this guy, could test aes with xrl audio cable and toslink just to see if they work and let you know if you want. Don't have an rca cable either but again could try an audio cable, should not sound great but should work as well. Have just used i2s so far and works fine. The dac has to be turned on first in my setup for everything to work properly with i2s.

This guy sells a lot of diy stuff, so i trust him. Bought from him before.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Top-Asynchronous-XMOS-U8-I2S-audio-usb-device-support-DSD-Digital-audio-system-/262010528369?hash=item3d010b6271:g:0xsAAOSwyQtV0u-G


----------



## FredA

freda said:


> I have got mine from this guy, could test aes with xrl audio cable and toslink just to see if they work and let you know if you want. Don't have an rca cable either but again could try an audio cable, should not sound great but should work as well. Have just used i2s so far and works fine. The dac has to be turned on first in my setup for everything to work properly with i2s.
> 
> This guy sells a lot of diy stuff, so i trust him. Bought from him before.
> 
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Top-Asynchronous-XMOS-U8-I2S-audio-usb-device-support-DSD-Digital-audio-system-/262010528369?hash=item3d010b6271:g:0xsAAOSwyQtV0u-G




Ok. All inputs are fine, except for xlr, but was tested with an audio cable, had nothing else to try. The others have been tested with proper digital cable. So my guess is that it works too.


----------



## robertsong

freda said:


> This guy sells a lot of diy stuff, so i trust him. Bought from him before.
> 
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Top-Asynchronous-XMOS-U8-I2S-audio-usb-device-support-DSD-Digital-audio-system-/262010528369?hash=item3d010b6271:g:0xsAAOSwyQtV0u-G


 
  
 That is where I bought mine. He's very good.
 Make sure you mention the Talema Upgrade and 120v.


----------



## auvgeek

Edit: It seems to work now. I'm not 100% sure what the issues was, but it was definitely software related. I started playing with JRiver, and it seemingly-randomly started to work. Let's hope it stays that way.


----------



## rb2013

auvgeek said:


> Edit: It seems to work now. I'm not 100% sure what the issues was, but it was definitely software related. I started playing with JRiver, and it seemingly-randomly started to work. Let's hope it stays that way.


 
 Don't be to surprised - PC audio is a mysterious affair at times.  PC's seem to have a mind of their own.  My fall back is 1st close Foobar and reopen.  If that doesn't work Reboot and turn off then on the DDC as the PC is reloading.  Failing that - remove all XMOS drivers - then reboot.  Reload drivers.  If I had a nickel for every Windows reboot I've done - I'd have a free system.
  
 The good new is usually once stable it seems to stay that way - except those darn Melodious's.  Those suckers were all the time having issues - random period of ticking noise, occasional load pops. Some times locking up, etc...Ugg!  And that was with three different units.


----------



## Luckbad

I wonder if we can have a mod change this thread title?
  
*USB -> S/PDIF Converters: Gustard U12, Melodious MX-U8, Breeze DU-U8, DXIO Pro3A, Etc.*


----------



## rb2013

luckbad said:


> I wonder if we can have a mod change this thread title?
> 
> *USB -> S/PDIF Converters: Gustard U12, Melodious MX-U8, Breeze DU-U8, DXIO Pro3A, Etc.*


 

 You are right - I've been meaning to - just no time right now.  Someone want to compile these 1288 posts and start a new thread?


----------



## murphythecat

jerryfan said:


> You should do a double blind test with both and report back. Something tells me the ventilated unit will have a more "airy" presentation and better transparency.


 
 will do
 I bought the breeze's at the store on aliexpress. I have only tried one and it works fine!


----------



## rb2013

murphythecat said:


> will do
> I bought the breeze's at the store on aliexpress. I have only tried one and it works fine!


 

 That is good to hear - but he was kidding about the vented version sounding better.  He was joking


----------



## bimmer100

I have to say, all these ddc's have been a big task to take on and nothing has proven to be a good option for me except the diu8 so far. I will acquire a new breeze and see if I have any luck with that. The pro3a is good and bad in some ways. The sound quality as far as details is clearly the champ between the breeze and u12 stock. My modded u12 is closer sounding to the pro3a but without all the glitches which seem to be hardware related. When the pro3a switches freq it makes ever so slight little clicks, personally they are ok by me, but I miss the Amanero, modded u12 and the diu8 with their well polished all around experience. The breeze I can't comment on fully at this point. It played fine on some stuff and on others, not. I felt it was a bit warm to my liking, and hopefully a crystal change will help. The pro3a I am going to sell to whomever wants a deal. The onboard regulators do a much better job at cleaning up the power than I imagined. What does this mean? Save your money on a linear power supply unless you feel spending 150-250 dollars to increase sound quality 1-2% is worth it? It's hardly a bit deal. I can notice, but it wasn't as dramatic as when I modded my u12 with a bellison regulator and fed it straight DC linear power/ gutted the ac and mains entirely. This was more like 10% improvement. 
The pro3a is almost perfect , but not. I will sell it to whomever wants a good deal. Pm me. I'm leaning towards the diu8 at this point. NDK's did not install well in the diu8, it wasn't heat that did it but some reason the board didn't like them. I'm going to try 957's next.
I'm pretty sure I'm keeping the diu8, it has a really really nice sound stage and clean 5 psu non feedback design. 
My modded u12 is going to go too, with the teradak dc30w, pm me if you are interested and want an excellent HDMI i2s audio gd comparable, uber low noise linear bellison regulator, 957 clocks; Panasonic low esr 3300uF caps, direct DC input. One problem with this u12 is the coax doesn't work, everything else is fine.


----------



## m usicguy

My U12 display has kinda broke.  Im missing the cross section of the 44 k display.  Does anyone know  that this doesnt effect operation of the usb to coxial conversion.  I normally tape over most of my lights anyhow.  I dont like lights when i listen to music on my stereo.
  
 musicguy


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I have to say, all these ddc's have been a big task to take on and nothing has proven to be a good option for me except the diu8 so far. I will acquire a new breeze and see if I have any luck with that. The pro3a is good and bad in some ways. The sound quality as far as details is clearly the champ between the breeze and u12 stock. My modded u12 is closer sounding to the pro3a but without all the glitches which seem to be hardware related. When the pro3a switches freq it makes ever so slight little clicks, personally they are ok by me, but I miss the Amanero, modded u12 and the diu8 with their well polished all around experience. The breeze I can't comment on fully at this point. It played fine on some stuff and on others, not. I felt it was a bit warm to my liking, and hopefully a crystal change will help. The pro3a I am going to sell to whomever wants a deal. The onboard regulators do a much better job at cleaning up the power than I imagined. What does this mean? Save your money on a linear power supply unless you feel spending 150-250 dollars to increase sound quality 1-2% is worth it? It's hardly a bit deal. I can notice, but it wasn't as dramatic as when I modded my u12 with a bellison regulator and fed it straight DC linear power/ gutted the ac and mains entirely. This was more like 10% improvement.
> The pro3a is almost perfect , but not. I will sell it to whomever wants a good deal. Pm me. I'm leaning towards the diu8 at this point. NDK's did not install well in the diu8, it wasn't heat that did it but some reason the board didn't like them. I'm going to try 957's next.
> I'm pretty sure I'm keeping the diu8, it has a really really nice sound stage and clean 5 psu non feedback design.
> My modded u12 is going to go too, with the teradak dc30w, pm me if you are interested and want an excellent HDMI i2s audio gd comparable, uber low noise linear bellison regulator, 957 clocks; Panasonic low esr 3300uF caps, direct DC input. One problem with this u12 is the coax doesn't work, everything else is fine.


 
 So far for you like the DiU8 the best?  Is it that the DXIO doesn't sound as good, has no i2s, or can;t be modded?  I found the DXIO Pro3a benefited nicely from the addition of a linear power supply.  The Pannie FR re-capped X1 was excellent and so far the larger cap (3300uf) DC-30W is better (I have FR's to recap - but haven't had time).
  
 But I can see that feeding the DXIO Pro3a from your $400 PPA OXCO USB PCI-e card that is fed from a $350 Paul Hynes LPS would be very close - in fact - surprised that that USB power feed isn't superior.
  
 But for those like me with a normal USB power feed the TeraDak DC-30W is a major step-up.
  
 My next move after settling on a DDC will be a PPA OXCO card.
  
 Does you DC-30W have the bank of 1600uf caps or the a set of those and a pair of 3300uf pannie caps stock?  Have you tried any recapping?
  


m usicguy said:


> My U12 display has kinda broke.  Im missing the cross section of the 44 k display.  Does anyone know  that this doesnt effect operation of the usb to coxial conversion.  I normally tape over most of my lights anyhow.  I dont like lights when i listen to music on my stereo.
> 
> musicguy


 
 Should have no effect.


----------



## robertsong

Ok, I've had the Cerious Graphene Extreme power cord hooked up to the Breeze for over a week now, and the sound is even better than I expected. Absolutely amazed. This has got to be one of the best kept secrets in Hifi. BIG step up from the Zu Mission power cord I was using previously. Night and day difference.
  
 I strongly recommend this power cord to anybody using a Breeze DU-U8 (and other digital gear). You won't believe what it does.
  
  
 So impressed that I ordered the G.E. Digital I/O cable right away.


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Ok, I've had the Cerious Graphene Extreme power cord hooked up to the Breeze for over a week now, and the sound is even better than I expected. Absolutely amazed. This has got to be one of the best kept secrets in Hifi. BIG step up from the Zu Mission power cord I was using previously. Night and day difference.
> 
> I strongly recommend this power cord to anybody using a Breeze DU-U8 (and other digital gear). You won't believe what it does.
> 
> ...


 

 Nice!  I agree completely.  I'll be curious to see how you like the Cerious Graphene Extreme digital cable.
  
 Reading the Feb 2016 issue of 'Absolute Sound'  they mention, as part of the Rocky Mountain Audio show review, the newly announced  Synergistic Research power cable lineup called 'Atmosphere Level 3'.
  
 To quote AS "the first high performance audio cable utilizing graphene.  It is reported to have 8 million times the current density as copper, making it the most conductive cable in the world, claims SR's Ted Denny."
  
 Really?  I've had the Cerious Technology Graphene Extremes for months now.  Maye they don't attend shows or advertise in AS?
  
 BTW the SR 'Atmosphere' Level 3 is $2995!  I kid you not - just under $3000 (well over with sales tax).  I pd $250 each for my three Cerious G.E. (Graphene Extreme)power cables.
  
 http://www.synergisticresearch.com/new-atmosphere-series-ac-power-cords/


----------



## robertsong

Wow, that's crazy. I bet the Cerious G.E. comes reasonably close too. Maybe even on par. (Yes, I'm serious. How much better can it get?)
 Anyways, they are most certainly NOT the first to make Graphene power cords. What a bold claim!
  
 That's two killer recommendations from you... the Breeze DU-U8 and Graphene Extreme PC. It's almost like they were made for each other.
  
 Thanks so much for bringing these recs here.
  
 I'll report back when the 1/0 cable arrives.


----------



## bimmer100

I'm getting lost in the music this weekend. Enjoying the diu8 (although the the pro3a has a touch more detail) and my m11 recently married to a graphene extreme power conditioning curious cable. And some nice headphones to keep me company. I didn't get to doing my project on the diu8. Installing 957's with extended dip14 sockets...


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> I'm getting lost in the music this weekend. Enjoying the diu8 (although the the pro3a has a touch more detail) and my m11 recently married to a graphene extreme power conditioning curious cable. And some nice headphones to keep me company. I didn't get to doing my project on the diu8. Installing 957's with extended dip14 sockets...





I would be very interested in hearing about the cerious improvement on the M11. I am getting tempted. And by the lightpeed 2g cable, as well. Still surfing on the intona upgrade wave, however.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> So far for you like the DiU8 the best?  Is it that the DXIO doesn't sound as good, has no i2s, or can;t be modded?  I found the DXIO Pro3a benefited nicely from the addition of a linear power supply.  The Pannie FR re-capped X1 was excellent and so far the larger cap (3300uf) DC-30W is better (I have FR's to recap - but haven't had time).
> 
> But I can see that feeding the DXIO Pro3a from your $400 PPA OXCO USB PCI-e card that is fed from a $350 Paul Hynes LPS would be very close - in fact - surprised that that USB power feed isn't superior.
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 The DIU8 I havent fully had a chance to mod. but as a stock DDC, it's well thought out and polished. No issues with transfering different frequencies. The Pro3A isn't perfect in that regard, but the detail retrieval is slightly better on my USB power than my Teradak...if you can believe it.   too bad the u12 didn't take direct USB power, likely would of been better in my case. Also explains why I never experienced noise leakage into the U12 when I fed USB from my PPA OCXO / Paul Hynes SR3. likely due to the insanely good feed from my USB.
  
 The DIU8 works best for my needs. and I believe it's 99% as good in detail retrieval, and shockingly, has cheap crystals. Yet the power delivery implementation is quite good. I don't know the specs on how low of noise, but I doubt it's as good as the Pro3A. Whatever Kingwa has done with the DIU8, it's been a good effort. I'm sure it's basically the same as his previous DDC, now with an Xmos module. I plan to mod this xmos module with Crystek 957's and longer dip14 sockets to elevate them above the surrounding components. I've attempted laying new copper traces and mount ndks...no luck, used a hot air gun and even with ultra low temp SRA solder paste @170C . Those little ndk's are very tough to deal with, and oddly I couldn't get the board to work with the ndk's. I put the stock crystals back on for now, works great anyhow. I have a replacement xmos board as a potential backup in case something goes wrong.  That has been a 3 week process in waiting for that board.... Kingwa won't sell "upgrades" to anyone anymore unless they are capable to install them. I had to take the DIU8 apart and remove the xmos board, take a photo and show him i'm able to do so.  kinda crazy, but it wasn't that bad. I'm thinking he has had to deal with too much technical support with people who are not comfortable with basic soldering and disassembly. Anyhow, i'm sure kingwa think's i'm crazy for trying to mod his work. That's ok, it takes a little bit of craziness to even bother with DDC's and audio modding in general. 
  
 I have been pondering to keep the Pro3A, but will write a bit of comparison between, U12, modded U12, Pro3A, DIU8 and the breeze...(still need a breeeeeze)
 will hope to borrow one at this point due to all the money i've got into this so far.
  
  
 @rb2013, I have not modded my Teradak DC30W, I'm sure some caps will help a tiny bit in filtering the power further. A good regulator would be a much better option. Dropping a Belleson Superpower Mk2 regulator would be ideal to go from 1mV noise to 5uV noise.  I've confirmed with Belleson that it can be done. ONE issue is which regulator? SPJ17 is for 5V and 2A max, you'd need to add a heatsink to it for using the 2A in full and efficiently. Thats easy, for 4 bucks on ebay.  or just mount it to the stock heatsink the dc30W has. remove the old regulator,  wire the new regulator's Vin from the rectified DC that is the input to the linear supply's existing internal regulator, which I recommend. I may consider taking the regulator out of the U12 and doing this mod. But i'm planning to sell the DC30W, Pro3A and AudioSensibility SE Silver to a local guy who could make use of it more than I can. I'm quite happy with the DIU8, HDMI i2s (DH Labs SonicSilver .5meter cable), Intona Industrial, PPA OCXO, Paul Hynes SR3. I'm trying to recover some funds from my DDC shootout so to speak. I hope to get a breeze before next weekend, otherwise i'm likely throwing in the towel on this project.


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> Wow, that's crazy. I bet the Cerious G.E. comes reasonably close too. Maybe even on par. (Yes, I'm serious. How much better can it get?)
> Anyways, they are most certainly NOT the first to make Graphene power cords. What a bold claim!
> 
> That's two killer recommendations from you... the Breeze DU-U8 and Graphene Extreme PC. It's almost like they were made for each other.
> ...


 

 So far on the Cerious Graphene Extreme interconnects - in the main system after a week 24/7 burnin - not quite at the same level of the Aural Thrill AC Tube BCS.  They are close - but ultimately the $1000 AT BCS interconnects are better.  But for $250 the CE are excellent - and are now sounding great in my office system. 
  
 This is what the AT and CT GE cables (and the Breeze & DXIO) - they do _*'Resolution'*_, quoting Robert Harley from the latest Absolute Sound - this describes it perfectly:
  


> But can a hi-fi system ever have _too much_ resolution?
> That we would think to ask such a question reflects a general misconception of what resolution is.  To be fair, unless you've heard real honest-to-goodness resolution-it's impossible to appreciate its transformative effect on the listening experience.  Resolution has for a long time been conflated with threadbare timbres, exaggerated transients, desaturated tone colors, and a general absence of warmth.  The last iota of information is ruthlessly laid bare and the sound degenerates into sterility, resulting in rapid listening fatigue.
> That characterization is true of products that attempt to sound highly resolving without really delivering resolution.  These products hype transient leading edges, are tipped-up in the treble, add a metallic sheen to timbres, and try to impress with sonic fireworks rather then by revealing musical nuances.  As they say in Texas, "Big hat, no cattle".
> * But a hi-fi system that delivers real resolution sounds nothing like this stereotype.*  *In fact, higher resolution renders greater tonal saturation, warmth, and instrumental body by virtue of reveling the timbral microstructure, which only contributes to a sense of realism and life.  Instrumental textures simply sound more like the real thing when a system  accurately portrays the instrument's harmonic and dynamic structure in all its finely textured glory*.  Unfortunately, it's these low-level signal components that are the easiest to lose.  Resolution is shaved off in every stage of the audio chain, from tonearm resonances, to electronic colorations, the mechanical structures in transducers.  It takes extraordinarily skilled design to create products that deliver true resolution.
> ...


 
 Realism, life like, spell binding, connection to the musicians - for me that's what it's all about.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> The DIU8 I havent fully had a chance to mod. but as a stock DDC, it's well thought out and polished. No issues with transfering different frequencies. The Pro3A isn't perfect in that regard, but the detail retrieval is slightly better on my USB power than my Teradak...if you can believe it.   too bad the u12 didn't take direct USB power, likely would of been better in my case. Also explains why I never experienced noise leakage into the U12 when I fed USB from my PPA OCXO / Paul Hynes SR3. likely due to the insanely good feed from my USB.
> 
> The DIU8 works best for my needs. and I believe it's 99% as good in detail retrieval, and shockingly, has cheap crystals. Yet the power delivery implementation is quite good. I don't know the specs on how low of noise, but I doubt it's as good as the Pro3A. Whatever Kingwa has done with the DIU8, it's been a good effort. I'm sure it's basically the same as his previous DDC, now with an Xmos module. I plan to mod this xmos module with Crystek 957's and longer dip14 sockets to elevate them above the surrounding components. I've attempted laying new copper traces and mount ndks...no luck, used a hot air gun and even with ultra low temp SRA solder paste @170C . Those little ndk's are very tough to deal with, and oddly I couldn't get the board to work with the ndk's. I put the stock crystals back on for now, works great anyhow. I have a replacement xmos board as a potential backup in case something goes wrong.  That has been a 3 week process in waiting for that board.... Kingwa won't sell "upgrades" to anyone anymore unless they are capable to install them. I had to take the DIU8 apart and remove the xmos board, take a photo and show him i'm able to do so.  kinda crazy, but it wasn't that bad. I'm thinking he has had to deal with too much technical support with people who are not comfortable with basic soldering and disassembly. Anyhow, i'm sure kingwa think's i'm crazy for trying to mod his work. That's ok, it takes a little bit of craziness to even bother with DDC's and audio modding in general.
> 
> ...


 

 Yes those little NDK's are buggers to deal with - you should have an easier time with the 957s. 
  
 Well I think I will try the recapping first on the DC-30W's I have - then if the DXIO turns out to be the winner - will get a PH for it and call it a day.  Use the recapped DC-30W on a PPA OXCO.  The chain complete.
  
 I would like to try a DIU8 as the last of the DDC's - so it'll come down to the DXIO vs a reclocked Breeze and a DIU8 (doubt I'd want to relcock a $350 DDC).  
  
 You should give a Hydra Z a shot - it has the 5VDC input option - Crystek CCHD-957 clocks std - and does i2s very well (from what I hear).  All that for a $600 (used) turn key solution.

  
  
 For me the Breeze was better - that was before the Cerious Graphene arrived - but I 'only' used a TeraDak to power the Z.  So my thinking was - these better 957 clocks may not be as important as I first thought.  But now after hearing the amazing detail retrieveal of the DXIO Pro3a - wondering if the NDK SD clocks aren't the best around.
  
 Have you tried powering the Pro3a with your Paul Hynes and using your DC-30W on the PPA?  Might get more mileage out of powering  Pro3a audio clocks with the better PH then the PPA.  Or maybe you just want i2s no matter what?


----------



## FredA

Hey RB2013, I've just bought the best usb cable on the market.
  
 See link:
  
 http://www.ebay.ca/itm/141157015025


----------



## conquerator2

freda said:


> I would be very interested in hearing about the cerious improvement on the M11. I am getting tempted. And by the lightpeed 2g cable, as well. Still surfing on the intona upgrade wave, however.


 
 Which Hifiman do you like better?


----------



## conquerator2

bimmer100 said:


> I'm getting lost in the music this weekend. Enjoying the diu8 (although the the pro3a has a touch more detail) and my m11 recently married to a graphene extreme power conditioning curious cable. And some nice headphones to keep me company. I didn't get to doing my project on the diu8. Installing 957's with extended dip14 sockets...


 
 Which Hifiman do you like better?


----------



## bimmer100

conquerator2 said:


> Which Hifiman do you like better?


 
 good question! I am working on the review. Thats a tough question. It's not as easy to answer as some of the guys on the Edition X thread who have so much rage and anger that they can't do some critical listening of the Edition X or they are comparing it to the He1000 by memory or by assumption. So is the case with many of them. Anyhow, If you can't afford the headphone, don't complain about it for that reason. It's truly closer to the HE1000 than some say. Many positive and negative sides to both. and of course if money was not a variable, i'd say get the he1000 for the most part. It's about what will work best for you. 
  
 I would love to have both in my collection, fortunately i've got access to a pair of HE1000's most of the time and mayber later in the future i'll grab a pair of them. It's quite likely i'll be selling my HD800's. I will do all the fancy mods, get a fancy cable, got the sonarworks plugin etc... but I enjoy the HEX and HEK more-so. Why keep a headphone around that will collect dust. HD800 does things the hifiman's don't, but overall less enjoyable than both of the HEK/HEX. 
  
 I will hopefully have a review done by next weekend, i'm working a lot of hours lately. Very little time.


----------



## coolrob

Hello Guys!
 I got my Breeze U8 finally today! (instead of 100 dollar it cost me almost 200 with taxes and DHL)
  
 Anyway i got a problem  I tryed it with foobar and spotify. After 1-2 min of listening i hear a hiss soundm and sound goes away and cant work. and not working until i restart the breeze.
 This is happened lik 3 times within 5 min 
 Is this a driver related problem? Im using win10, with newest drivers.


----------



## robertsong

coolrob said:


> Hello Guys!
> I got my Breeze U8 finally today! (instead of 100 dollar it cost me almost 200 with taxes and DHL)
> 
> Anyway i got a problem  I tryed it with foobar and spotify. After 1-2 min of listening i hear a hiss soundm and sound goes away and cant work. and not working until i restart the breeze.
> ...


 

 Where did you purchase your Breeze? Others have reported problems. Which driver are you using? Try XMOS 2.26.0.


----------



## coolrob

From the offical breezer audio seller at aliexpress.
 I used the Thesycon 3.29 and the usb 3.20.0 driver.


----------



## bimmer100

coolrob said:


> From the offical breezer audio seller at aliexpress.
> I used the Thesycon 3.29 and the usb 3.20.0 driver.





Care to add a link for those who would like to download it?


----------



## coolrob

bimmer100 said:


> Care to add a link for those who would like to download it?


 
 I would love to get links for older drivers, which maybe solve my problem


----------



## FredA

conquerator2 said:


> Which Hifiman do you like better?




I haven't tried any. I own a 200$ pair of Senns and a 100$ Sony mdr-7506 i use at work. Tried a top of the line Senn once, and a rather high-end Grado. I am not really into headphones. I am more of speaker guy. But i can enjoy a good headphone setup.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Hey RB2013, I've just bought the best usb cable on the market.
> 
> See link:
> 
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/141157015025


 
 I have one! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










  It connects my Regen to the Breeze.
  


bimmer100 said:


> good question! I am working on the review. Thats a tough question. It's not as easy to answer as some of the guys on the Edition X thread who have so much rage and anger that they can't do some critical listening of the Edition X or they are comparing it to the He1000 by memory or by assumption. So is the case with many of them. Anyhow, If you can't afford the headphone, don't complain about it for that reason. It's truly closer to the HE1000 than some say. Many positive and negative sides to both. and of course if money was not a variable, i'd say get the he1000 for the most part. It's about what will work best for you.
> 
> I would love to have both in my collection, fortunately i've got access to a pair of HE1000's most of the time and mayber later in the future i'll grab a pair of them. It's quite likely i'll be selling my HD800's. I will do all the fancy mods, get a fancy cable, got the sonarworks plugin etc... but I enjoy the HEX and HEK more-so. Why keep a headphone around that will collect dust. HD800 does things the hifiman's don't, but overall less enjoyable than both of the HEK/HEX.
> 
> I will hopefully have a review done by next weekend, i'm working a lot of hours lately. Very little time.


 
 Sold my HD800/Moon Black Dragon V2 after hearing my friends SR-009/BHSE rig. -now that's a mighty fine sounding combo.  Still considering new HD800S - and maybe a MJ2 running balanced.  The HD800/HD800S really like balanced.
  


coolrob said:


> Hello Guys!
> I got my Breeze U8 finally today! (instead of 100 dollar it cost me almost 200 with taxes and DHL)
> 
> Anyway i got a problem  I tryed it with foobar and spotify. After 1-2 min of listening i hear a hiss soundm and sound goes away and cant work. and not working until i restart the breeze.
> ...


 
 It seems the units bought from Ali Express are all having problems - poor QC? 
  


coolrob said:


> From the offical breezer audio seller at aliexpress.
> I used the Thesycon 3.29 and the usb 3.20.0 driver.


 
 I would try the 2.6 or Wave I/O 2.4 drivers.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> I have one! :wink_face:     It connects my Regen to the Breeze.
> 
> Sold my HD800/Moon Black Dragon V2 after hearing my friends SR-009/BHSE rig. -now that's a mighty fine sounding combo.  Still considering new HD800S - and maybe a MJ2 running balanced.  The HD800/HD800S really like balanced.
> 
> ...




Well I will likely be selling my hd800's as they don't get enough use. Had them not too long. Basically brand new! Seriously in perfect shape. 
but I consider to do a bunch of mods to them and maybe sell them then.  
I have heard them sound amazing with specific modding done


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I have one! :wink_face:     It connects my Regen to the Breeze.




I plan on hanging the intona at the back of the breeze with it. Should bring some improvement i assume, and improve my WAF by hiding the intona. I won't wait for it to come in, i will go get another one at the electronics store tomorrow.

It was this or a lightspeed 2g. Just read John Darko's review on the 4g. Seems like hearing one is needing one. It's like hearing certain 1000+$ interconnects, bought of couple of those in the past.

 Hearing all this raving about the cerious power cable makes me ceriously incomfortable not owning at least one. My excuse for not getting one is i am afraid of nano-particles... Should vanish soon.


----------



## somestranger26

rb2013 said:


> It seems the units bought from Ali Express are all having problems - poor QC?


 
 Mine works fine.


----------



## robertsong

Can somebody please provide Thesycon 3.29?


----------



## robertsong

Here's XMOS 2.26. The one that most people are using with the Breeze (I think).
  
  
 Quote:


robertsong said:


> Anybody have the Breeze driver? My DU-U8 arrived today.
> 
> Ok, nevermind. The 2.26 driver that was posted earlier worked after several installation attempts. Not sure what the initial problem was (as usual), but the Breeze DU-U8 is sounding awesome right away!
> 
> ...


----------



## mxnm2006

Hi
 I just received my new U12 and I hooked it up to my existing DAC -SMSL Sankrit Pro-B. I installed the most recent driver (version 3.20) for the U12. I connected these two devices via co-axial cable. I then configured FOOBAR to use "ASIO: FOO_DSD_ASIO" as device for the OUTPUT. I then configured ASIO driver (under the OUTPUT) to point to "XMOS USB Audio 2.0 St 3033" and I entered "DoP Marker 0x05./0xFA" for DSD playback method.
 Oddly enough, for WAV and FLAC music, it works flawlessly, except for DSD music. There is just no sound if DSD music is played!!! even the LED screen would show "d64". It seems that it can detect the DSD source, yet there is no output.
 Can anyone help? I really hate to return this thing to Amazon without at least giving it a try.
 Thanks!


----------



## m0reilly

you would need to use the i2s out from the gustard to get true dsd.


----------



## mxnm2006

m0reilly,
 Thanks for replying.
 Does that mean, in order to play the DSD music using the U12,  I will have to either buy a DAC with the iiS input or keep switching my USB input between the U12 and the SMSL Sankrit?
 Oh! that is not very exciting any more. Do you have any other suggestion for me to get the DSD output from U12?
 Thanks!


----------



## mxnm2006

m0reilly,
 I found the specs for U12 online and it seems that it would process DoP (DSD to PCM):
*Digital Input：*
*Coaxial：*
 PCM：16-24bit /44.1、48、88.2、96、176.4、192 kHz
 DOP：DOP64
  
 When you say "true DSD", I believe you meat to say when it is hooked up with II2 output. Are you implying also that it can transmit "un-true" DSD through DOP? If so, do you know how to configure FOOBAR or any DSD player software in order to get DoP to work?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## m0reilly

yep, for true full tilt dsd non dop you would need usb from your dac, or the i2s hdmi on another dac to utilize the u12. you will not get the resolve of true dsd files via dop, but this may be somewhat moot if all other devices are not resolving..


----------



## mxnm2006

So you think for U12 not to put out any sound to coaxial output when playing DSD music is normal?
  
 I really just want to make sure my device is working what it supposed to work. If it is not the way it supposed to work, I will have to return it.
  
 Thanks for the advise.


----------



## vincponc2610

can you give the url of the aliexpress official reseller ?


----------



## auvgeek

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/331129
  
 They are closed until Feb 19 for the Chinese New Year.


----------



## m0reilly

mxnm2006 said:


> So you think for U12 not to put out any sound to coaxial output when playing DSD music is normal?
> 
> I really just want to make sure my device is working what it supposed to work. If it is not the way it supposed to work, I will have to return it.
> 
> Thanks for the advise.


 
 your u12 sounds to be working normal. you will only get dsd through the i2s out from the u12, or the usb in on your dac sans the u12.


----------



## bimmer100

I'm selling my modded U12 (linear power)
 has crystek 957's
 LVDS upgrade to be compatible with i2s for Audio-GD
 panasonic caps 25v low esr 3300uF
 Dexa NewClassD 5v regulator
 needs 7V linear input. 2.5/5.5mm plug (works with dc30w psu)
  
 PM me for super low price, less than a new unit
  
 one catch, NOT a/c powered, and COAX does not work. optical does, aes does, i2s is ideal and best anyhow.
  
  
 just the mods alone are well over the price of a u12 new.


----------



## mxnm2006

Thanks! m0reilly.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> I plan on hanging the intona at the back of the breeze with it. Should bring some improvement i assume, and improve my WAF by hiding the intona. I won't wait for it to come in, i will go get another one at the electronics store tomorrow.
> 
> It was this or a lightspeed 2g. Just read John Darko's review on the 4g. Seems like hearing one is needing one. It's like hearing certain 1000+$ interconnects, bought of couple of those in the past.
> 
> Hearing all this raving about the cerious power cable makes me ceriously incomfortable not owning at least one. My excuse for not getting one is i am afraid of nano-particles... Should vanish soon.


 
 4G? There is no 4G - do you mean 10G?  That's a pretty expensive cable - there's one for sale in the classifeds.  The 2G is $199 the 10G $999.  Then again Darko thought the Curious USB (not to be confused with Cerious Tech - different company) - was better then the 10G.  I had a Curious USB for awhile - much preferred the 2G.  My limit is a few hundred for a digital cable these days - there was a time when price was almost no object.
  


somestranger26 said:


> Mine works fine.


 
 Well that is good to hear - I was afraid this was another Melodius episode.
  


robertsong said:


> Can somebody please provide Thesycon 3.29?


 
 I have it for the Breeze and it's very good - but can't remember where I got it. PM me.


----------



## rb2013

Anyone try one of these iFi iPower SMPS power supplies?  $49.  http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipower/
  

 Active Noise Cancellation+®
 10x quieter than before
 12 Element Output Array
 Polarity Inverter Adapter





















 Military radar tech
 for audio
 1uV of audio noise,
 astoundingly quiet
 Dynamic noise
 suppression circuitry
 For ‘centre negative’

 The central characteristic of iFi is in pursuit of the zenith in audio performance: it leaves no stone unturned. Well, the all new iPOWER is an exemplary example of this. Despite the fact that the iFi Ultra-Low Noise AC/DC adapter was exceptionally quiet and elevated the iUSB and iPhono to punch way beyond their respective categories, the all new iPower is even quieter, up to 10x quieter in fact.
*What is it?*
Brand new audiophile-standard DC-power supply:
In 5V, 9V, 12V and even 15V versions.
 
Measured on the Audio Precision 2, the iPower has an astonishingly low audio band noise floor of just 1uV! To put this into context, iFi’s very own Ultra-Low Noise AC/DC adapter was in a class of its own at 10uV. Compared to a typical audiophile Linear Power Supply which measured at 20uV, it is demonstrably clear AMR/iFi power supply technology is unparalleled.


----------



## sealykojac

somestranger26 said:


> Mine works fine.


 
  
 Just got my fully upgraded Breeze today from Aliexpress and its a fail. Tested on both Windows and Mac to a Gustard and Teac dac (AES and Toslink) and all exhibit the same issue. The sound coming form the breeze is distorted and cracks and pops whenever music is playing through it. Now the fun begins of trying to get support / return...


----------



## rb2013

sealykojac said:


> Just got my fully upgraded Breeze today from Aliexpress and its a fail. Tested on both Windows and Mac to a Gustard and Teac dac (AES and Toslink) and all exhibit the same issue. The sound coming form the breeze is distorted and cracks and pops whenever music is playing through it. Now the fun begins of trying to get support / return...


 

 Well that does suck.   I'd advise avoiding buying from them directly.  At least with Ebay you have the 'buyers guarantee' - which I believe Ebay backs-up.  It's a few more dollars but worth it in the advent of a defective unit.
  
 Be sure to ask for the Talema version which is extra.
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Top-Asynchronous-XMOS-U8-I2S-audio-usb-device-support-DSD-Digital-audio-system/262010528369?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26as


----------



## bimmer100

sealykojac said:


> Just got my fully upgraded Breeze today from Aliexpress and its a fail. Tested on both Windows and Mac to a Gustard and Teac dac (AES and Toslink) and all exhibit the same issue. The sound coming form the breeze is distorted and cracks and pops whenever music is playing through it. Now the fun begins of trying to get support / return...


 
  
 Seems to be a common thing... mine was bad too.


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Well that does suck.   I'd advise avoiding buy from them directly.  At least with Ebay you have the 'buyers guarantee' - which I believe Ebay backs-up.  It's a few more dollars but worth it in the advent of a defective unit.
> 
> Be sure to ask for the Talema version which is extra.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Top-Asynchronous-XMOS-U8-I2S-audio-usb-device-support-DSD-Digital-audio-system/262010528369?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26as


 
 i returned mine to china for 56usd and still awaiting refund for that portion. I hope they honor their return policy for DOA items. Sucks, but it's not cheap to ship overseas!


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> 4G? There is no 4G - do you mean 10G?  That's a pretty expensive cable - there's one for sale in the classifeds.  The 2G is $199 the 10G $999.  Then again Darko thought the Curious USB (not to be confused with Cerious Tech - different company) - was better then the 10G.  I had a Curious USB for awhile - much preferred the 2G.  My limit is a few hundred for a digital cable these days - there was a time when price was almost no object.
> 
> Well that is good to hear - I was afraid this was another Melodius episode.
> 
> I have it for the Breeze and it's very good - but can't remember where I got it. PM me.




Of course, 10g is what i meant.

I tried the usb adapter tonight. Very hard to connect with i2s just next. Had to use a longer/cheaper i2s cable. Some weight had to be put on the usb sockets of the intona and breeze. So i put everything back as it was.

 But i think i might be able to order another mkii cable from ab-system. I am hesitant with the lightspeed cause i think the mkii might be very close for just 30$. To the least, it is so much better than anything else i have tried. And the built quality is excellent. Very solid cable.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Of course, 10g is what i meant.
> 
> I tried the usb adapter tonight. Very hard to connect with i2s just next. Had to use a longer/cheaper i2s cable. Some weight had to be put on the usb sockets of the intona and breeze. So i put everything back as it was.
> 
> But i think i might be able to order another mkii cable from ab-system. I am hesitant with the lightspeed cause i think the mkii might be very close for just 30$. To the least, it is so much better than anything else i have tried. And the built quality is excellent. Very solid cable.


 

 You could try the Forza Twin Copper split -it's pretty good - less detailed - more romantic then the 2G.  $79


----------



## rb2013

I ordered a 5VDC iPower from MusicDirect - I hope it's even better then the TeraDak DC-30W linear power supply with the 3300uf caps - on the DXIO Pro3a
  
 The only issue is that some folks have reported mechanical transformer hum from theirs - but it's a unit by unit thing.  I can always return it to MusicDirect in that event.
  
 The DC iFilter looks very cool!  Should be released very soon.
  
 http://www.musicdirect.com/p-322395-ifi-ipower-outboard-supply.aspx
  


> iFi iPower Power Supply 20 Times Quieter Than Conventional Audiophile Linear Power Supplies: iFi iPower Instantly Improves Performance of All iFi Components and Virtually Every Other DC-Powered Product​ iFi iPower Power Supply Lets You Hear More Music, Detail, and Clarity: 12-Element Output Array, Virtually Nonexistent Noise Floor, and Interchangeable Wall Plugs for Global Compatibility​ The iPower delivers pure DC power like nothing before it. Enjoy clean DC power anywhere you go in the world with the *iFi iPower power supply*. Up to ten times quieter than than *iFi*'s already excellent ultra-low-noise stock AC/DC adapter, and 20 times quieter than conventional audiophile linear power supplies, *iPower* has a virtually nonexistent noise floor of 0.000001 Volts (1μV). This vanishingly low noise floor offers significant improvement to the performance of any DC-powered product. A 12-element output array delivers audiophile-quality noise suppression and a set of interchangeable wall plugs ensures global compatibility and supreme portability.
> *Lower-Than-Low Audio Noise Floor, 12-Element Output Array Suppresses Noise*
> Measured on the Audio Precision 2, iPower delivers an astonishingly low audio-band noise floor of only 1μV, which is . To put this into context, iFi's prior ultra-low noise AC/DC adapter was in a class of its own at 10μV. Compared to a typical audiophile linear supply, which measures at 20μV, iPower is unparalleled. Plus, its 12-element output array dynamically suppresses noise in real-time as it makes its way through the mains.
> *Worry-Free Global Compatibility, Freedom of Portability *
> ...


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> You could try the Forza Twin Copper split -it's pretty good - less detailed - more romantic then the 2G.  $79


 
  
 I will try ordering paying with my credit card at a-b system. Paypal won't work. If not successful, i will go for a forza or 2G.


----------



## robertsong

Just got this PM from somebody struggling with the translator (coolrob). Can we get a total tally of defective units from
  Aliexpress? I think bimmer100 was the first?
  
  
  



> Sry for disturbing.when i asked about help for my breeze which doest work as expected you wrote that:
> 
> "Where did you purchase your Breeze? Others have reported problems."
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 bimmer100
 coolrob
 sealykojac
  
 and?


----------



## conquerator2

Still no Audio-gd vs Breeze or did I just miss it?


----------



## robertsong

rb2013 said:


> You could try the Forza Twin Copper split -it's pretty good - less detailed - more romantic then the 2G.  $79


 
 http://forzaaudioworks.com/en/product.php?id_product=46
  
 Hmmm, Just out of curiosity...
  
 What length USB do most people here use? I thought the 1.5m rule applies to usb cables as well as spdif.


----------



## rb2013

robertsong said:


> http://forzaaudioworks.com/en/product.php?id_product=46
> 
> Hmmm, Just out of curiosity...
> 
> What length USB do most people here use? I thought the 1.5m rule applies to usb cables as well as spdif.


 

 1.5M on the Forza, 1M on the 2G, 2M on the Supra


----------



## robertsong

rb2013 said:


> 1.5M on the Forza, 1M on the 2G, 2M on the Supra


 
  
  
 So you think 1m is long enough? Obviously, the 2G is your favorite. I may be interested in your Forza cable if you want to sell it. Or is it in your second system?


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Still no Audio-gd vs Breeze or did I just miss it?


 

 No not yet  - Bimmer's Breeze turned out ot be defective.  He has the DU-I8


----------



## bimmer100

conquerator2 said:


> Still no Audio-gd vs Breeze or did I just miss it?


 
 I'm not going to buy one of those breeze units... I have a guy who will be loaning me one in a few weeks from now.
 but from the short time I did listen to it, I'm not going to say it will be the Pro3A that's for certain.
 The DIU8 is pretty darn good as it sits, even with its cheap oscillators. It's a bit brighter and detailed than the breeze which seemed slightly warm yet fairly detailed. The hiss that came and went in the breeze was annoying so I didn't listen too long.  also fizzles and pops once in a while. But I can't fairly rate the breeze against others until I have a fully functioning version. I also plan to mod this breeze with 957's while i'm borrowing it. It should be a step up.
  
 My DIU8 I will be going to install the 957's this saturday morning and see how that goes. HOPEFULLY well. It won't be easy as i'll have to use long lead Dip14 sockets to raise the super large 957's above the surrounding components on the xmos module. I'll give it a shot and see how it sounds. Stock, it's better than my modded U12, and gut feeling tells me it will be better than the breeze. It's not far behind the Pro3a in sound quality. barely. Yet I prefer the DIU8 for it's inputs and outputs, so likely will stick with this one over the rest.


----------



## conquerator2

bimmer100 said:


> I'm not going to buy one of those breeze units... I have a guy who will be loaning me one in a few weeks from now.
> but from the short time I did listen to it, I'm not going to say it will be the Pro3A that's for certain.
> The DIU8 is pretty darn good as it sits, even with its cheap oscillators. It's a bit brighter and detailed than the breeze which seemed slightly warm yet fairly detailed. The hiss that came and went in the breeze was annoying so I didn't listen too long.  also fizzles and pops once in a while. But I can't fairly rate the breeze against others until I have a fully functioning version. I also plan to mod this breeze with 957's while i'm borrowing it. It should be a step up.
> 
> My DIU8 I will be going to install the 957's this saturday morning and see how that goes. HOPEFULLY well. It won't be easy as i'll have to use long lead Dip14 sockets to raise the super large 957's above the surrounding components on the xmos module. I'll give it a shot and see how it sounds. Stock, it's better than my modded U12, and gut feeling tells me it will be better than the breeze. It's not far behind the Pro3a in sound quality. barely. Yet I prefer the DIU8 for it's inputs and outputs, so likely will stick with this one over the rest.


 
 Thanks, I'll wait for more!
 But if the DI really is brighter than the Breeze then that is no good.
 That indicates it has a highly aggressive and detailed sound just like the previous DI, which I don't want.
 The Breeze is perfect for me in that regard. Great balance throughout. I don't want anything brighter.
 I am still using the older DI as an optical in decoder, which I assume has identical parts on the newer DI where most of the modifications were done on the USB.
 I'll eagerly wait for more but you might have saved me a couple bucks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The Breeze has been flawless for me so far!


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Thanks, I'll wait for more!
> But if the DI really is brighter than the Breeze then that is no good.
> That indicates it has a highly aggressive and detailed sound just like the previous DI, which I don't want.
> The Breeze is perfect for me in that regard. Great balance throughout. I don't want anything brighter.
> ...


 

 Try a Cerious Tech Graphene with the Breeze - it doesn't make it less warm - just better all around.  Worth every penny of the $250 it cost.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I'm not going to buy one of those breeze units... I have a guy who will be loaning me one in a few weeks from now.
> but from the short time I did listen to it, I'm not going to say it will be the Pro3A that's for certain.
> The DIU8 is pretty darn good as it sits, even with its cheap oscillators. It's a bit brighter and detailed than the breeze which seemed slightly warm yet fairly detailed. The hiss that came and went in the breeze was annoying so I didn't listen too long.  also fizzles and pops once in a while. But I can't fairly rate the breeze against others until I have a fully functioning version. I also plan to mod this breeze with 957's while i'm borrowing it. It should be a step up.
> 
> My DIU8 I will be going to install the 957's this saturday morning and see how that goes. HOPEFULLY well. It won't be easy as i'll have to use long lead Dip14 sockets to raise the super large 957's above the surrounding components on the xmos module. I'll give it a shot and see how it sounds. Stock, it's better than my modded U12, and gut feeling tells me it will be better than the breeze. It's not far behind the Pro3a in sound quality. barely. Yet I prefer the DIU8 for it's inputs and outputs, so likely will stick with this one over the rest.


 

 Did you ever get the Cerious GE cable?  Give it a try on the loaner Breeze.  You would  be amazed at the improvement


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> Try a Cerious Tech Graphene with the Breeze - it does make it less warm - just better all around.  Worth every penny of the $250 it cost.


 
 Thanks for the tip but I am not ready to spend that kind of money for a cable yet 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I just bought a Copper Colour Penny V power cable [which is my first foray into aftermarket cable] for about 80$ and I'll compare that to a generic power cord.
 I'll also be upgrading my headphone cable very soon [to a Copper Litz] so let's see whether that does something,
 Right now I am curiously skeptical but if I hear improvement I'll invest more into other cableage


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I ordered a 5VDC iPower from MusicDirect - I hope it's even better then the TeraDak DC-30W linear power supply with the 3300uf caps - on the DXIO Pro3a
> 
> The only issue is that some folks have reported mechanical transformer hum from theirs - but it's a unit by unit thing.  I can always return it to MusicDirect in that event.
> 
> ...




Very interesting product. I will use it for my waveio project if it is as good in practice as on paper.


----------



## FredA

conquerator2 said:


> Thanks for the tip but I am not ready to spend that kind of money for a cable yet
> I just bought a Copper Colour Penny V power cable [which is my first foray into aftermarket cable] for about 80$ and I'll compare that to a generic power cord.
> I'll also be upgrading my headphone cable very soon [to a Copper Litz] so let's see whether that does something,
> Right now I am curiously skeptical but if I hear improvement I'll invest more into other cableage




Litz copper sounds very good in interconnects, acss or balanced. I am sold to it. No skin effect, so the sound is clearer, more transprent, very evenly balanced. It is quite hard to solder however so for my amp projects, i use solid core occ instead..


----------



## conquerator2

freda said:


> Litz copper sounds very good in interconnects, acss or balanced. I am sold to it. No skin effect, so the sound is clearer, more transprent, very evenly balanced. It is quite hard to solder however so for my amp projects, i use solid core occ instead..


 
 So I've read.
 I am buying it. It seems very promising - 84  litz copper strands/core, 4 cores, OFC [well, 99.7% purity is good enough for me ] only 11 pf of capacitance, silk wrapped, 19AWG... And for a very good price!
 I'll report back on it when I get it but this is promising


----------



## rb2013

conquerator2 said:


> Thanks for the tip but I am not ready to spend that kind of money for a cable yet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Sorry meant to say  - it doesn't make it any less warm.  You're not alone in the skeptics group on cables - but just one hearing on what these remarkable graphene cables sound like you would be convinced.  It seem to pair especailly well with the Breeze - a powerful combo


----------



## conquerator2

rb2013 said:


> Sorry meant to say  - it doesn't make it any less warm.  You're not alone in the skeptics group on cables - but just one hearing on what these remarkable graphene cables sound like you would be convinced.  It seem to pair especailly well with the Breeze - a powerful combo




I will be open to anything. Hearing is believing 
Even entry level audiophile cable shoould bring sonical differences in the less positive and improvements in the best scenario 
I will happily be convinced if I hear a chsnge.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Very interesting product. I will use it for my waveio project if it is as good in practice as on paper.


 

 I ordered two today after reading a review on the iPhono and how the new 1uV iPower made such a major difference in SQ (and now I want a iPhono too!) - a 9VDC for my Wyrd for Sound Remedy and a 5VDC to try on the DXIO. 
  
 Anyone try a iFi iUSB3.0?  USB Isolation, and filtering in the extreme - esp driven by the new iPower!
  
 Total USB Solution+® banishes ALL USB audio gremlins




 The micro iUSB3.0 addresses all 8 significant USB audio gremlins that lead to poor
 quality computer audio in one fell swoop:
 • Corrects signal balance
 • Suppresses frame noise
 • Suppresses packet noise
 • Ultra clean power
 • Eliminates ground noise
 • Corrects impedance mis-match
 • Eliminates USB Jitter
 • Restores signal integrity
 Where many of USB audio’s short comings are not considered, iFi has already solved them.
  
 All-new, tack sharp technology





The noise floor of the micro iUSB3.0 has been improved upon and is an astonishing 0.1uV (or 0.0000001V). This is at the edge of what is measurable – even the mighty Audio Precision only just about manages to measure the micro iUSB3.0.





 
Active Noise Cancellation +® drawn from military radar technology





Drawing from the military field (specifically the Thales Spectra radar cancellation system deployed in the French Dassault Rafale jet fighter), iFi adapted this technology to exclusively introduce the Active Noise Cancellation+ ® (ANC+®) audio power system. It is so revolutionary that the ANC technology is now a cornerstone of the ever-improving iFi USB audio technology range.





_An air defence radar is transmitting at a certain frequency; the signal is bouncing off the aircraft; a receiver on board the aircraft picks up the signal and a computer analyses its base frequency/modulations and an identical, out-of-phase signal is generated by an onboard system to cancel out the enemy radar signal._
By generating a signal identical to the noise signal but in the exact opposite phase, it actively cancels all the incoming noise. ANC+® is the perfect ‘antidote’ for power supply noise, the bane of USB audio.





With ANC+® the power line is filtered for audio band and RF noise. The measured noise floor of 0.1uV (0.0000001V) is at the measurement limit of what even the most sophisticated Audio Precision equipment is capable of.
Measured noise drops by 100 times or 40dB in comparison to the common noise filters.
Sonically, the background and inner resolution to recordings is brought to the fore and no longer hidden. Sonics are much smoother, just like how good analogue should be. Nothing comes close.
 
A whole new signal： REclock® /REgenerate





The micro iUSB 3.0 re-clocks/re-generates/repeats USB audio datastream. For any and every downstream DAC, REgenerate creates an all new USB signal and then employed a precision master clock with the REclock® technology to completely eliminate computer jitter. Music flows better; is cleaner, deeper and more accurate, just like the real thing.
 
The signal is now balanced: REbalance®





USB signal is inherently a balanced signal, however most USB signals are unbalanced to some degree and contaminated by noise. By removing the DC offset and ‘re-balancing’ the USB audio signal, it is now perfectly balanced and noise-free.
The graph below on the left shows a typical USB signal that is poor. Virtually everything about the signal is out of kilter. The graph below on the right shows how EACH different feature of the iUSB3.0 corrects the USB audio signal. All combined, the signal is brought back to a near ‘perfect’ form. This shows the important to have each and every REclock®/REgenerate®/REbalance® feature.





 
The future is here: USB3.0® ultra-speed 5.0 Gbps





iFi products are cutting-edge in the future of audio. Being USB3.0 standard, the micro iUSB3.0 handles USB3.0 and USB2.0 with aplomb. As audio signal quality improves, USB3.0’s ultra-speed bandwidth of 5.0Gbps offers an incredibly wide bandwidth that is 10x that of USB2.0’s 480Mbps.
Hence, the micro iUSB3.0 handles ultra-high resolution audio without restriction. For now and many years to come, the micro iUSB3.0 will remain an integral component.
 
Computer Audio ‘IsoGround®’ and ‘On/Auto’





The ground connection on the computer is contaminated with noise. The original micro iUSB cleverly solved this issue with IsoGround® without falling foul of the USB standard (simply breaking the computer ground connection is NOT USB compliant and often results in USB connection problems). The new micro iUSB3.0 features not only this but also ‘Auto/On’ USB power line options to further enhance the user experience.
 
USB Hub 2xDual-Ports® just add DAC and HDD










We like to try not only forensically but also comprehensively. With two sets of Dual-Ports, the micro iUSB3.0 operates as a computer audiophile-grade powered hub to serve two devices such as DAC and HDD. This means the whole complete computer audio is whisper quiet as noise from one source does not contaminate another.
With modern power-hungry devices, the micro iUSB3.0 is also Bus Charge 1.2 compliant which means it is able to fast-charge phones, tablets and even the phenomenal micro iDSD.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I ordered two today after reading a review on the iPhono and how the new 1uV iPower made such a major difference in SQ (and now I want a iPhono too!) - a 9VDC for my Wyrd for Sound Remedy and a 5VDC to try on the DXIO.
> 
> Anyone try a iFi iUSB3.0?  USB Isolation, and filtering in the extreme - esp driven by the new iPower!
> 
> ...




You should give bimmer's intona a try. You could be very impressed. Mine has improved furthermore. I was listening to Marsalis Magic Hour. Heard some details never ever heard a hint of before, and so clearly. At this point, it's worth a breeze and a half of an upgrade. This thing needs to burn for more than 200 hours. 

I might get a lightspeed 1g cable and put a male a to female a adaptor, with power pins cut. It should be close to a 2g.


----------



## bimmer100

robertsong said:


> Just got this PM from somebody struggling with the translator (coolrob). Can we get a total tally of defective units from
> 
> Aliexpress? I think bimmer100 was the first?
> 
> ...




I got mine from eBay


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> I ordered two today after reading a review on the iPhono and how the new 1uV iPower made such a major difference in SQ (and now I want a iPhono too!) - a 9VDC for my Wyrd for Sound Remedy and a 5VDC to try on the DXIO.
> 
> Anyone try a iFi iUSB3.0?  USB Isolation, and filtering in the extreme - esp driven by the new iPower!
> 
> ...




Yes! I have spent quite a bit of time with this piece of gear. Quite nice! But very expensive imho and didn't make much difference compared to a regen Amber. A friend won one of these and brought it over a couple of weeks ago. We spent a lot of time with it and overall it's pretty nice. I would prefer my intona over the ifi iUSB3.0 I would like to borrow it again and compare to the intona, but I know that this ifi does NOT do what the intona does best. True high speed galvanically isolated data and power. Also.... It can withstand over 2G's of force!!! That's where I was sold. Because when you hear my audio gear setup it will throw you to the back of your seat at a violent 2G of force. It's just that good  
But seriously, ifi is a cool company with good products for the most part... If you are even slightly considering this, I couldn't understand why you wouldn't consider the intona before this. I also have tried their little 1uv wall wart psu. tell me what you think when using it with the pro3a, I'm thinking it won't be ideal.


----------



## FredA

Are you being totally ironic or do you enjoy the intona now?

As for my setup, i am one usb cable from audio nirvana. The soundstage has exploded tonight! We're talkimg many many Gs.  The intona was right at the center of the explosion and is still working flawlessly. Kidding aside, the intona works great for me.


----------



## bimmer100

freda said:


> Are you being totally ironic or do you enjoy the intona now?
> 
> 
> 
> As for my setup, i am one usb cable from audio nirvana. The soundstage has exploded tonight! We're talkimg many many Gs.  The intona was right at the center of the explosion and is still working flawlessly. Kidding aside, the intona works great for me.





I absolutely love the intona. It does help in my system actually. I may consider selling my ppa3 now. As the intona does everything I need and then some. Kinda a no brainer. Industrial strength! Wonder what industry... Oh wait, duh!! The audio industry! So it's made for professional level studios with demands, and other stuff too. But definitely audio grade. I was just reading how sulking the regen, jitterbug and wyrd are as many of them actually add noise to USB. More than I realized. Good thing intona has been tested to prove it actually removes all the packet noise. Specifically 8khz and 16khz noise is no longer any issue. Which I would love to see the ifi iusb3.0 specs on 8khz packet noise. I haven't been fortunate enough to find that information yet. I may have to borrow my friends and get that info myself. But at least I know the intona is actually working and not just some silly device that makes USB sound different. The Intona actually makes it sound as good as it's going to get.


----------



## FredA

bimmer100 said:


> I absolutely love the intona. It does help in my system actually. I may consider selling my ppa3 now. As the intona does everything I need and then some. Kinda a no brainer. Industrial strength! Wonder what industry... Oh wait, duh!! The audio industry! So it's made for professional level studios with demands, and other stuff too. But definitely audio grade. I was just reading how sulking the regen, jitterbug and wyrd are as many of them actually add noise to USB. More than I realized. Good thing intona has been tested to prove it actually removes all the packet noise. Specifically 8khz and 16khz noise is no longer any issue. Which I would love to see the ifi iusb3.0 specs on 8khz packet noise. I haven't been fortunate enough to find that information yet. I may have to borrow my friends and get that info myself. But at least I know the intona is actually working and not just some silly device that makes USB sound different. The Intona actually makes it sound as good as it's going to get.




Good to hear this. 

Then intona is excellent indeed but benefis for clean 5v. That is why i put a wyrd before it. Then the ouput usb cable matters. It's the most important one for signal integrity. The one before it probably makes a difference as well. But one thing is for sure, i have never heard resolution close to this in my system. I am thinking of getting a supra cat8 rj45 custom made to 6 inches and a very fine usb cable to complete the picture. There is just a tiny bit of harshness i want to eliminate. 

I can only imagine how good your hp setup must sound. Must be something very special.


----------



## FredA

Ordered this Valab Pure Silver Copper USB Interconnect Type A to B 1m
  
 and supra .7m for a great total of 120USD shipping included. Will a to b  with my other cables and do some ranking. Should be fun.


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> I absolutely love the intona. It does help in my system actually. I may consider selling my ppa3 now. As the intona does everything I need and then some. Kinda a no brainer. Industrial strength! Wonder what industry... Oh wait, duh!! The audio industry! So it's made for professional level studios with demands, and other stuff too. But definitely audio grade. I was just reading how sulking the regen, jitterbug and wyrd are as many of them actually add noise to USB. More than I realized. Good thing intona has been tested to prove it actually removes all the packet noise. Specifically 8khz and 16khz noise is no longer any issue. Which I would love to see the ifi iusb3.0 specs on 8khz packet noise. I haven't been fortunate enough to find that information yet. I may have to borrow my friends and get that info myself. But at least I know the intona is actually working and not just some silly device that makes USB sound different. The Intona actually makes it sound as good as it's going to get.


 

 Well wasn't really considering spending $300 for iUSB3.0 - but was curious.  But I would like a PPA 3.0 - so if you want to sell it let me know. 
  
 So now the Intona is a miracle worker?  You said before that it wasn't worth the money?
  
 The Regen adds noise to USB? - and the Intona re-clocking the USB with those el-cheapo CMEMS very high phase noise (but can take +2G lateral acceleration!) SiTime clocks doesn't?  Weird.  Especially for someone obsessed with having the lowest phase noise clocks possible - even for USB (I think you mentioned how much better the PPA 3.0 USB card sounded with it's OXCO clocks over the TXCO PPA 2.0 USB).  Doubly weird.  So you have ultra low noise OXCO reclocked USB then relocked by ultra high noise (and cheap) CMEMS clocks?  and it sounds better?  Wow - kinda like anti-matter.
  
 I notice that Intona - does not provide any mention of the CMEMS clocks on their website and datasheet anymore.  They used to brag about the high temp high G force clocks.  They certainly don't post any phase noise numbers.  I'm also surprised you didn't like the test bench - ultra low noise winner - the 1uV iPower?


----------



## rb2013

The second DIYinHK DXIO Pro3a arrived yesterday - so popped it into my main system.  I kinda expected the sound to be more closed in - as this one is brand new and not burned in.
  
 I WAS SHOCKED!  It was better!  Deeper and fuller bass, even larger sound stage - Wow!  I imagine after a 100hrs it will sound even better.
  
 So it appears there are variations in production models.  The first I received is all black and the second it silver on top.  Should I try a yellow?
  
 The caps on my TeraDak X1/X2 linear power supply - which I recapped with Pannie FRs - are fully burned in.  So I used it with the Yellowtec PUC2 Lite I have as a loaner.
  
 And that made all the difference in the world!  With the TeraDakX1/FR/Cerious Tech Graphene power cable - the PUC2 is killer - killer good.  I should say great!
  
 So how does this combo stack up to the DXIO black/TeraDak DC-30W(stock)/Cerious Tech Graphene?  Well I think it's a draw.  The PUC2 has deeper bass and a very nice mid-bass.  The foundation of music as they say.  The DXIO black more air and transparency.  Not saying the PUC2 doesn't have excellent air as well, or the DXIO is devoid of bass or has a muddy mid-bass - contrary - both excel here.  They're just edged out by the other in those respective categories.

  
 NOW the DXIO silver - well it's better then both.  Has more air and transparency then the black and significantly more then the PUC2 - the bass is not quite as fathomous as the PUC2 (boy does this thing go deeeeep!), but it's close enough.  So I would say the DXIO silver is top dog - but I really want a PUC2 as well.  Why?
  
 Well they both do things so well - yet slightly differently.  Reminds me of my uber analog days - I had two top phono cartridges - the Dynavector XV-1s and the Benz Ebony LP.  Both just amazing carts  - but approached the sound from a different perspective.  This is well know in ultra high end analog land - many top of the line turntables have multiple arms for this purpose.

  
 So yes I would like to have the PUC2 lite to switch to every so often.  My main system is running Maggie 1.6qr panels - no subs.  These are considered very transparent and finicky speakers - they present an unbelievably lifelike image and focus.  But due to the fact they are 5ft tall _planars _- not the last word in bass response.  Yet with either of these DDC's the bass is more then enough.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.

 The downside to the PUC2 - AES only.  I fortunately had a Canare AES to SPDIF converter and a 10db annentuator on hand - worked like a charm.  The other bug-a boo on the PUC2 - no external power feed!  Well the Lightspeed 2G split came in handy again -  just ran the power lead to the TeraDak.  I should also note the cost difference - the PUC2 is around $500 and the DXIO $200.
  
 What a great time for computer audio!


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Well wasn't really considering spending $300 for iUSB3.0 - but was curious.  But I would like a PPA 3.0 - so if you want to sell it let me know.
> 
> So now the Intona is a miracle worker?  You said before that it wasn't worth the money?
> 
> ...


 
  
 You should save your money and not buy the intona, iusb 3.0 etc. even the PPA3.  I think the biggest difference I was getting was from the clean Paul Hynes SR3 and the Teddy Pardo. And the intona doesn't work miracles on my machine, but with others it's quite impressive. I found a small increase of sq in my system with the intona, that actually impresses me since i've found it difficult to find other upgrades that actually make a difference...not just a sidegrade. 
  
 I've never mentioned how much better the PPA3 is over the PPA2, Another guy in this thread has done that comparisons. Cthua or something, I forgot. I've read countless places that the PPA3 is better than PPA2, yet a few saying they are pretty close. Either way, they allow for the USB5v to be supplied from a separate Linear psu. that is key.
 It's not the clocks that are creating the noise in the 8khz packets. All of the clocks, even the low performance ones are still low enough below the noise floor to not be issues. Also, alex Crespi mentions that the clocks, crystek, are far from the reason the regen performs. I can re-quote that email from him if you'd like.
 I too made the mistake of thinking that usb clocks made a difference like masterclocks for spdif..
 "
Hi Tim:
 
Your Teradak will work fine with the REGEN.
 
The REGEN will be of benefit to both the Gustard and the Amanero.  It is all about providing better signal integrity (a real thing, not a marketing word) to the USB input so the DAC's USB input PHY chip (complex little beast) does not have to work as hard to decode the data, thereby generating less packet- and ground-plane noise.  You might find some enlightenment about the issues and the REGEN in this review that was just published on AudioStream.com: http://www.audiostream.com/content/uptone-audio-usb-regen
 
As for clocks:  You are confusing the DAC master clock (or the Gustard's output clock which becomes master for S/PDIF interfaces) with the USB PHY and hub-chip clock as used in all USB inputs and in the REGEN and Schiit Wyrd.  VERY different things.  We do use a nice low-jitter Crystek clock in the REGEN, but is far from being an important aspect to its performance--or the reason the REGEN outperform the Schiit Wyrd.  The power network around our hub chip, the impedance matching with the 4-layer board, and the whole focus on SI is what makes the REGEN stand out--especially when placed right at the input jack of the DAC or USB>S/PDIF converter as recommended.
 
I am sure you will enjoy it.
 
Best,
 
  
  Alex Crespi
  
UpTone Audio LLC
 Mariposa, California
 Phone: 1-209-966-4377
 E-mail: crespi@sti.net
 "


 So...intona is creating 60uV of noise from 20hz-22khz. not bad? better than most anyone's usb on average. but what's best is that the ground plane noise is absolutely eliminated. therefor the packet noise issues are too. Regen did a good job at attenuated some of it. but other issues arose too. Anyhow... like I said, it's not a miracle worker, i've never made any such comment as you say. For my machine at least.   Also, CMEMs clock is on the dirty side of the intona, the CLEAN side is re-clocking the signal via the usb chip with it's pll internal clock. Even if it was "ultra high noise", which it's not. It's just not ultra low noise. simply low noise is a fair way to describe them.
 On a last note. this is just downright silly to have you comment on gear you've never actually tested yourself. The end test is listening for improvements, not just changes. 
 I've not experienced dramatic changes with the Graphene Extreme cables, but every so slight improvements that imho...thats awesome! but certainly not some magical pairing. I will try the breeze and graphene extreme as you say it's a good match. I expect to hear subtle change at most. 
  
  
 ... unsubscribing now...


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> You should save your money and not buy the intona, iusb 3.0 etc. even the PPA3.  I think the biggest difference I was getting was from the clean Paul Hynes SR3 and the Teddy Pardo. And the intona doesn't work miracles on my machine, but with others it's quite impressive. I found a small increase of sq in my system with the intona, that actually impresses me since i've found it difficult to find other upgrades that actually make a difference...not just a sidegrade.
> 
> I've never mentioned how much better the PPA3 is over the PPA2, Another guy in this thread has done that comparisons. Cthua or something, I forgot. I've read countless places that the PPA3 is better than PPA2, yet a few saying they are pretty close. Either way, they allow for the USB5v to be supplied from a separate Linear psu. that is key.
> It's not the clocks that are creating the noise in the 8khz packets. All of the clocks, even the low performance ones are still low enough below the noise floor to not be issues. Also, alex Crespi mentions that the clocks, crystek, are far from the reason the regen performs. I can re-quote that email from him if you'd like.
> ...


 

 Well I offered to buy your Cerious GE cable - for what you paid.  And no offer - so I guess it's worth the $250?  I mean you were complaining how I egged into buying all this stuff and it's all worthless (I'm just blogging my experience and don't suggest anyone buy any of this - that should be clear to anyone who reads a blog)?
  
 And you did just say you were selling your PPA3.0 now you have the Intona - didn't you?  So why a PPA 2.0?  So you quote the Intona noise at 60uV in the audible range - but iFi quotes .1uV for the iPowered iUSB3.0 - so why is that not 600x better?  The 8kHz packet noise is in the audible range right.
  
The noise floor of the micro iUSB3.0 has been improved upon and is an astonishing 0.1uV (or 0.0000001V). This is at the edge of what is measurable – even the mighty Audio Precision only just about manages to measure the micro iUSB3.0.






  
 The iUSB3.0 also isolates the USB PC ground plane:


  
The ground connection on the computer is contaminated with noise. The original micro iUSB cleverly solved this issue with IsoGround® without falling foul of the USB standard (simply breaking the computer ground connection is NOT USB compliant and often results in USB connection problems). The new micro iUSB3.0 features not only this but also ‘Auto/On’ USB power line options to further enhance the user experience.
 
 So just getting what the Intona does that the iUSB3.0 doesn't do better? But then you say:


> Yes! I have spent quite a bit of time with this piece of gear. Quite nice! But very expensive imho and didn't make much difference compared to a regen Amber. A friend won one of these and brought it over a couple of weeks ago. We spent a lot of time with it and overall it's pretty nice. I would prefer my intona over the ifi iUSB3.0 I would like to borrow it again and compare to the intona, but I know that this ifi does NOT do what the intona does best. True high speed galvanically isolated data and power. Also.... It can withstand over 2G's of force!!! That's where I was sold. Because when you hear my audio gear setup it will throw you to the back of your seat at a violent 2G of force. It's just that good
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 




  
  
 If the PPA 2.0 is nearly as good as the PPA 3.0 - why would you pay another $300 for it?
  
 Just so many inconsistencies and contradictions I'm having a hard time following your logic?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 For example you say:


> I've not experienced dramatic changes with the Graphene Extreme cables, *but every so slight improvements* that imho...*thats awesome!* but certainly not some magical pairing. I will try the breeze and graphene extreme as you say it's a good match. I expect to hear subtle change at most.


 
 Is the awesome comment sarcastic or do you truly feel a $250 power cable that provides 'every so slight improvements' is worth it?
  
 You say 'but certainly not some magical pairing' - do you have a functioning Breeze that you've paired it to?  How can you say it's not 'magical'?  Then you say 'I will try the breeze and the graphene extreme as you say it's a good match' - so I'm guessing you haven't tried them together?  See what I mean - I'm lost here.  Then the comment 'I expect to hear subtle change at most' - well OK you can have a view before trying - but be open minded about it when you do, then post about it.
  
 I appreciate your input to the thread - it's just this harping on this Intona thing is wearing me out. So I have a different view.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> You should give bimmer's intona a try. You could be very impressed. Mine has improved furthermore. I was listening to Marsalis Magic Hour. Heard some details never ever heard a hint of before, and so clearly. At this point, it's worth a breeze and a half of an upgrade. This thing needs to burn for more than 200 hours.
> I might get a lightspeed 1g cable and put a male a to female a adaptor, with power pins cut. It should be close to a 2g.


 
 The Lightspeed 1G is not close to the 2G - it in fact not even a split cable.
  


> *LightSpeed 1G*
> A two meter USB A to USB B cable. Perfect for connection of high performance DACs to PCs or Macs for music playback.
> *LightSpeed 2G*
> A two meter ultra-wide bandwidth USB-A to USB-B cable (over four times the USB 2.0 Spec) that allows for perfect delivery of all USB audio information. Innovative dual-connector design separates power and data conductors to minimize noise and interference for maximum performance.


----------



## rb2013

Just to set the record straight - as there is so much misinformation being passed around here - 8kHz packet Noise as Uptone's chief engineer John Swenson speaks about  - DOES not come from the PC USB itself!  It's generated by the USB converter AGC and USB processor reacting to varying levels of signal integrity.  The USB receiver in the DDC using 'Automatic Gain Control' circuits has to activate with poor USB data signal integrity - that along with USB processor itself (in this case the XMOS) reacting to the varying data packet delivery - causes inter-modulation in the DDC power supply.
  
 No galvanic isolation filters that out - period!
  
 What the Regen attempts to do is a couple of things  - one match impedance as closely as possible - as any impedance mismatches cause backwave reflections - these cause the USB reciver issues - thus feeding the 'packet noise problem'.  Second reclocking the USB data signal with good XO clocks - again the idea is to provide a 'cleaner' signal to the USB receiver.
  
 All the Intona does is isolate the USB PC ground (needed for USB power delivery) and reclock the USB signal with dirty clocks.  Period!  No magic here.  Packet Noise crosses all isolators - because it's the way the PHY USB data is packetized and processed.  With USB 2.0 Asyn - it's worse as the normal USB error correction for missing or bad packet is disabled.
  
 If you use a data only feed (as the USB bridges here are external powered), you can easily BLOCK the power AND the GROUND connection with a simple VBUS +5VDC blocker - I used a Jitterbug and clipped the 1 and 4 pins.  Easy - absolutely no PC USB ground or power in the picture.
  
 But that does not eliminate 'packet noise' - that is generated IN the USB receiver itself.  So a very high quality USB cable with extremely close impedance tolerances (2G) provides the USB bridge receiver the highest and best data signal integrity.  A PPA PCI USB card can provide better data signal integrity by removing the USB signal from the PC USB Bus - where typically there are other devices attached - like a mouse, keyboard, ext hard drive, etc...
  
 From John Swenson


> Remember that SI consists of rise/fall time, noise, and jitter. The jitter in the SIGNAL is determined by the transmitter PHY, *which can be significantly influenced by the clock IT gets and the noise on its PG planes.* USUALLY noise is low on the signal as it exits the PHY. *The cable (and connectors) cause an increase in raise/fall times, added noise (EMI and crosstalk from power and ground wires) and decreased amplitude of the signal.* Any decent receiver will have an automatic gain control (AGC) which compensates for this effect, but that raises the noise on the signal, so I'm lumping the amplitude decrease into noise. The cable by itself rarely adds jitter to the signal, *BUT the increased rise/fall times and extra noise cause the received data to have increased **jitter in the PHY. This is one of the big issues that all that extra processing is designed to deal with.*
> 
> *When that XMOS chip is dealing with data from the host it is generating its own noise on the PG planes, part of the noise will be from the PHY and part from the MAC.* The PHY part can change due to SI of the USB signal, the rest cannot, it stays the same. *If separate ground planes and separate power supplies are not used, that noise can directly affect the **DAC** chip(s) and the master clock oscillator.* As was posted from a previous post of mine, even if separate supplies and planes are *used with isolation between them, the effects of this noise still winds up at the **DAC chip and clock.*
> 
> ...


 


> What I have been finding in looking at DACs etc with *USB inputs is that there is what I am calling "packet noise". This is bursts of noise caused by the USB** receiver processing the packets of data. *This noise shows up on both power and ground planes. Since the rate of packets is 8KHz there are strong components of this noise in the audio band. This noise can cause jitter in clock oscillators, reclocking flops, and DAC chips. It can also go directly into noise on the output of DAC chips.
> 
> The question everybody asks then is: w*ell what about the DACs that have full isolation between the **USB system and reclocking on the DAC** side? Unfortunately this noise likes to make it through even this. *Exactly how this works is complicated, I have written about this in the AudioStream articles. And bits and pieces in other posts recently. *The upshot is that neither galvanic isolation nor reclocking completely get rid of it. They help attenuate it some, but don't get rid of it.*
> 
> ...


----------



## bimmer100

The PPA3 I purchased on a whim, I had money to go and try the best they offered. I chose the PPA3, as I feel having a good USB card that allows for external Linear power will be a key element to improvement of my overall sound quality. Femto clock or not, the power is likely the biggest improvement. Speaking of Power, i'll get a professional opinion on the 1uV ifi power supply you speak of, as I don't have the "quote" from said professional handy, but you might wonder why one can offer such a cheap alternative to a high end ultra low noise psu that does 20uV (Paul Hynes), 40uV(mojo) 60uV (Intona). Each have their own properties and disadvantages. If you read up on Belleson's website you'll find that there are MANY weaknesses to each power supply design, Jung , Shunt, Battery, Burson, Dexa, LT and LM, SuperTeddyReg. Again, I won't pretend to know what i'm talking about, but I recall there was a major flaw with the ifi 1uV for certain applications.  And the difference audibly in microvolts is negligible when you even get down to the microvolt level. Going from a DC30W @ 1mV to anything I just mentioned in the 20-60uV range may or may not be audible to certain people. Certainly it is audible going from a PC's power supply of 15-20mV noise to a dc30W @ 1mV. That's a very welcome improvement. But I spend all this money to let others know my experience with this fancy audio gear that is highly hyped up. I hate to have everyone spend their money on gear if they don't really need it. If you listen to headphones, its less likely you'll hear a difference than if you listen to loud speakers or ultra sensitive planar magnetics like maggies. I have "decent" headphones to do my listening tests, but am not fortunate enough to have a loud speaker setup like you...or at least I think you do. 
  
 Quote:


rb2013 said:


> Well I offered to buy your Cerious GE cable - for what you paid.  And no offer - so I guess it's worth the $250?  I mean you were complaining how I egged into buying all this stuff and it's all worthless (I'm just blogging my experience and don't suggest anyone buy any of this - that should be clear to anyone who reads a blog)?
> 
> And you did just say you were selling your PPA3.0 now you have the Intona - didn't you?  So why a PPA 2.0?  So you quote the Intona noise at 60uV in the audible range - but iFi quotes 1uV for the iPowered iUSB3.0 - so why is that not 60x better?  The 8kHz packet noise is in the audible range right.
> 
> ...


 
 I've never said the GE cable was for sale, so why would you offer to buy it? I don't even recall you asking. even if you offered to buy anything, i'd turn you down. I'm with this instigation. I keep my posts as objective as possible. I consider to sell a lot of gear as it's purchased to find out if it really makes a difference. I have too much fancy gear, and some has to go. I do like the GE cables as they match my system a little better than the SR Tesla T1 SE, that's best suited for tube gear. It's not that any one cable will be the magic ingredient for all systems. You must try it and listen. Sadly I'm still trying to figure out the differences. Gold = whatever, Rhodium = whatever Silver = whatever...honestly, it's never remained consistent. I just listen and then be honest about what I hear. I've been sarcastic in saying...
 my quote:
 "Yes! I have spent quite a bit of time with this piece of gear. Quite nice! But very expensive imho and didn't make much difference compared to a regen Amber. A friend won one of these and brought it over a couple of weeks ago. We spent a lot of time with it and overall it's pretty nice. I would prefer my intona over the ifi iUSB3.0 I would like to borrow it again and compare to the intona, but I know that this ifi does NOT do what the intona does best. True high speed galvanically isolated data and power. Also.... It can withstand over 2G's of force!!! That's where I was sold. Because when you hear my audio gear setup it will throw you to the back of your seat at a violent 2G of force. It's just that good 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 But seriously..."
  
 Pick up on the sarcasm? hopefully. My system sounds good imho. But i'm just joking around with the 2G thing, i'm over talking about this in a serious way, as if it is even relevant to why the intona is capable or not. It's not relevant. Many cables use fancy materials and marketing to get you to buy it, maybe it has a functional purpose or not. But if it sounds good, that's all I care about. I mean literally sounding better than without. Not marketing hype.
  
 I will have a functional Breeze in the very near future to test. As I mentioned before. I'm testing these DDC's to give a straight forward opinion on each of them. I'm spending my money so others don't have to.  The Pro3A so far is one of the beset deals without question. And likely will end up on the top...not trying to be a spoiler. IF, you get the yellow one however... That's the one I got  seriously. I did. So I can't comment on the black or silver one, those might be uber special versions, right RB? again... please sense sarcasm. I would logically say it comes down to quality control issues or variances in your power implementation... ie: (time of day = better or worse power) (no consistent current/noise/sinewave, since no ac regen) - maybe you'd have less variances if your power implementation was worked on a bit more. You had a P300 before, likely only with the stock fuse... I though tfuses' were totally hype...crazy thing is... with the P300, the stock fuse made more than a subtle difference. It was congested and stuffy, nasaly like sound. I upgraded to a hifi-tuning supreme fuse and it opened up a bit, now a Audio Horizons Platinum fuse and finally....neutrality, clean sound. Also have an AMR Gold fuse that's quite nice. That's that. fuse's don't always make a difference though...only certain gear. Basically, all the fuses were easily distinguishable from the stock p300 fuse. Maybe that's why your experience with the p300 was not great.
  
  
 back to the GE...
 I said  the GE cable give "slight" improvements. that's honest, it's certainly not magical. Nor did I say what the combo was like with the breeze, only commenting on your experience of it being a good pairing. My expectations are my expectations, not a fact. nothing more than what I feel or expect. I've been pleasantly surprised before. But i'm certainly not in the wrong for having expectations of what the Breeze and GE cable may sound like together. The jump from a U12 to Melodious, to a Pro3A and Breeze are all so similar. nothing close to your quoted measurements in my situation.
 Quote:


rb2013 said:


> Hi, Well first off - congrats on the Yggy - what a beauty!  Big fan of R2R DACs and with the tech Schiit put in that beast - I bet sounds amazing.
> 
> Second - I have not heard the new 'redesigned' Melodious.  I had lots of issues with a couple of the Melodious I bought and won't be trying their latest creation.
> 
> ...


 
 I'm not sure I could expect results like this. Maybe these are true for your situation. But 26 points less for a u12 to a breeze DU-U8.  If I ever read a subjective post, this is one. And thanks for sharing your opinions. Each result may vary from user to user. Even the Silver PRO3A would rank,, what? 103 over the black PRO3A with its ranking of 101. But the yellow one, I don't know. maybe 105? (sarcasm) Anyhow. We all make silly comments from time to time. 
  
 I am first to admit i'm learning as i'm going along with this whole DDC, usb isolation, and i'm not going to pretend like I fully understand where packet noise comes from. 
  
 I'm unsubscribing from this thread for the very reason i'm not going to entertain arguments about subjective material. I've got many other projects to deal with than this. I'm quite happy for you, Rb2013, that you're finding nirvana with with your cables and such. I've not ever quoted that you'd egged me into buying anything. I recall something along the lines about your claims for gains have been a bit over exaggerated. And everyone is guilty of this from time to time. I have been quote sarcastic in some of my posts. The recent comment about the GE cable with slight gains was NOT sarcastic, but quite genuine. I'm very happy to see ANY improvement from a cable. I simply don't believe cables are the best place to spend money when you're putting together gear.  Buying Headphones, AMP, power implementation (ie: linear power, ac regen), then comes DDC, headphone cables, power cables and very last...usb cables.  I have reached the point of the last 1% and that is within usb cables. the least exciting changes of them all. Assuming you have good power implementation, you'll see how little a usb cable makes a difference. Otherwise, they fluctuate quite a bit more when power implementation is overlooking...sadly it often is. 
  
 I'll post my results on the DDC comparison this month when I have given the breeze a fair chance. and have married it to its soulmate, the GE cable.  Also modded it with 957's for further testing. all will be compared. This sat morning i'll be installing 957's in my DIU8. I'll be documenting everything I hear. my expectations are very low for this project as a whole. I welcome to be pleasantly surprised. The only DDC that stands out of the crowd is the Pro3A currently. and for my own needs, the DIU8 is quite nice, hopefully the 957's will smear that line between the Pro3A.  I do however have my power implementation quite ideal in all situations. I should get a clean cut comparison based on this base foundation of stable/clean power.


----------



## rb2013

Well I won't fault you for sarcasm!  I have more then enough myself - in fact I think it's kind of amusing.
  
 Now on the color thing regarding the DXIO Pro 3a - I don't really think the color itself has anything to do with it, per se, but maybe these were made in different production runs.  Just as likely there are individual production variations.  I'm scratching my head on that one.  Maybe I happen-stanced into seredipity and got a 6 sigma outlier!
  
 Hell if I know - I'm just digging the sound.  My power supplies have remained the same - I believe the stock DC-30W (with the large 3300uf Pannie caps) is fully burnt in by now -same goes for the X1 with the FR's.  I have held off from upgrading this DC-30W with the Pannie FR's I have on my desk - just to not have to wait out another few hundred hours.  I need to send my friend his PUC2 lite back (and a DXIO as I promised), it's been several weeks. Thanks Bro'!!!
  
 I'm going to try the iPower 1uV I orderd two different voltages - so we'll see.
  
 But thanks for posting my old rankings - I'll update below


----------



## rb2013

Here would be my current ranking and ratings:
  
  
  
 DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious     130
 PUC2 Lite TeraDak X1/FR caps/Cerious    125
DXIO Black/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious      118 unit not working properly
 PUC2 Lite - USB power                          110
 Breeze with Cerious Graphene                108
 Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version)                98
 Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version)                 95
 Hydra Z with LPS                                    92
 Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps)             85
 Melodious MX-U8 (stock)                          81
 Gustard U12 (upgraded caps)                    76
 Gustard U12 stock                                   72
 iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC)                      65
 Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon                      65
 M2Tech EVO with LPS                               60
 Audiophileo 2                                          50
 M2Tech Hiface                                         40


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> The Lightspeed 1G is not close to the 2G - it in fact not even a split cable.


 
  
 Well it is supposed to be similar except the split design. So my point is that by cutting the power pins at source, you could maybe get something comparable, assuming you don't need them.


----------



## rb2013

freda said:


> Well it is supposed to be similar exept the split design. So my point is that by cutting the power pins at source, you could maybe get something comparable, assuming you don't need them.


 

 I don't think it's made to the same 4X tolerances as the 2G


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> I don't think it's made to the same 4X tolerances as the 2G


 
 Anyway, I have a got short supra on the way plus a valab. Will test them against my best cable and see. 200$ for the 2g (plus change to can $) is off my psychological limit.


----------



## bimmer100

freda said:


> Anyway, I have a got short supra on the way plus a valab. Will test them against my best cable and see. 200$ for the 2g (plus change to can $) is off my psychological limit.


 
 very wise man! you'll be more than pleased with the supra cable.


----------



## robertsong

bimmer100 said:


> I'll post my results on the DDC comparison this month when I have given the breeze a fair chance. and have married it to its soulmate, the GE cable.  Also modded it with 957's for further testing. all will be compared. This sat morning i'll be installing 957's in my DIU8. I'll be documenting everything I hear. my expectations are very low for this project as a whole. I welcome to be pleasantly surprised. The only DDC that stands out of the crowd is the Pro3A currently. and for my own needs, the DIU8 is quite nice, hopefully the 957's will smear that line between the Pro3A.  I do however have my power implementation quite ideal in all situations. I should get a clean cut comparison based on this base foundation of stable/clean power.


 
  
  
 Yeah, very interested in what the 957 Crysteks do to various DDC's...  especially the Breeze (when you finally get one... lol).
  
 Please report your findings here.


----------



## robertsong

The DDC that everybody seems to be forgetting about is the Luckit WaveIO. Not sure why.
  
 I have one on order and should be arriving in the next 2 weeks.
  
  

  
  
  
  
 http://luckit.biz/product/waveio/
  
 I have a very good expectation about this one. Otherwise, I'll gladly keep the Breeze DU-U8 and that will be that.


----------



## bimmer100

robertsong said:


> The DDC that everybody seems to be forgetting about is the Luckit WaveIO. Not sure why.
> 
> I have one on order and should be arriving in the next 2 weeks.
> 
> ...


 
 I haven't forgotten that one.  i'm going to build one in a DIY box, I have been planning this project for a while. It's the best DDC design out there.
 downside is it requires a bit of DIY knowhow. Not just plug in and forget about it. So not ideal for many people.


----------



## glip

Thank for your reply
  
 Hi, I am here again and having problems connecting the GUSTARD u12 to my Mac Mini. I am trying to used with OSX Maverick 10.9.5 and the plug and play, and simply it does not work. It does no recognize the USB SOUND OUTPUT. I have a DAC now (v90 MUSICA FIDELITY) and I am connecting it like this:
  
 Mac mini, usb --- usb cable--- usb input, GUSTARD u12,optical output--- optical cable--- optical input, v90-DAC---to my sound system. 
  
  
 I need the drives to make it work with OSX Maverick 10.9.5… is there any other way???
  
 Please HELP!!
  
 Thanks!!
  
 glip


----------



## glip

Thank for your reply
  
 Hi, I am here again and having problems connecting the GUSTARD u12 to my Mac Mini. I am trying to used with OSX Maverick 10.9.5 and the plug and play, and simply it does not work. It does no recognize the USB SOUND OUTPUT. I have a DAC now (v90 MUSICA FIDELITY) and I am connecting it like this:
  
 Mac mini, usb --- usb cable--- usb input, GUSTARD u12,optical output--- optical cable--- optical input, v90-DAC---to my sound system. 
  
  
 I need the drives to make it work with OSX Maverick 10.9.5… is there any other way???
  
 Please HELP!!
  
 Thanks!!
  
 glip


----------



## rb2013

bimmer100 said:


> very wise man! you'll be more than pleased with the supra cable.


 

 I have a Supra - no comparison to the 2G - but for $50 bucks pretty good.  I do like the Forza Twin Copper split better and it's only $29 more.


----------



## rb2013

glip said:


> Thank for your reply
> 
> Hi, I am here again and having problems connecting the GUSTARD u12 to my Mac Mini. I am trying to used with OSX Maverick 10.9.5 and the plug and play, and simply it does not work. It does no recognize the USB SOUND OUTPUT. I have a DAC now (v90 MUSICA FIDELITY) and I am connecting it like this:
> 
> ...


 

 Shouldn't require any drivers - try unplugging then replugging the USB cord.  Also check the voltage switch inside to see if it's set your voltage.
 BTW does the display light up?
 Good luck!


----------



## bimmer100

rb2013 said:


> Here would be my current ranking and ratings:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 what sort of rating system is this? 
  
 on a scale from 0-100 how would you rate them.
  
 a baseline of 0 not working at all. 50 sounding like poo (AM radio) 60 (FM radio) 65(HDradio) etc . and 100 being real life perfection.? how can things sound better than 100percent? or is there some level above perfection i've yet to hear?  (sarcasm) but PLEASE come up with a logical measurement of rankings.
  
 i'm guessing all these stack around 80-90pts. 
  
 I'm just trying to get a more accurate understanding of what these numbers are you're coming up with actually mean. the m2Tech is literally less than a 1/3rd of the performance of the DXIO? really? or am I misunderstanding this. I would think a 1/3rd of the performance is crazy crappy sounding. worse than a tape deck? or maybe 8 track player?


----------



## auvgeek

^^Yeah, I find it hard to believe the silver Pro3a (even with LPS & GE) sounds nearly twice as good as the U12...
  
 Edit: That said, I'm appreciative of the time he took to rank all of these, and the numerical values (while perhaps arbitrary) give a sense of how different he thinks they sound. If you hear two of the DDCs on his list, you can get a sense of how much effect the others might have, assuming the numerical ratings are linear.


----------



## bimmer100

auvgeek said:


> ^^Yeah, I find it hard to believe the silver Pro3a (even with LPS & GE) sounds nearly twice as good as the U12...
> 
> Edit: That said, I'm appreciative of the time he took to rank all of these, and the numerical values (while perhaps arbitrary) give a sense of how different he thinks they sound. If you hear two of the DDCs on his list, you can get a sense of how much effect the others might have, assuming the numerical ratings are linear.


 
  
  
 in my experience of testing my heavily modded U12 vs stock... I would say... if the rating of 72 for the stock U12 is correct. The pro3a is the best i've heard so far...that being said.
 anything above this or near 100 - I personally don't believe is possible in our current technology to create REALISM of sound at this point, even with the best of headphones or loud speakers. Maybe 90 can be achieved.
  
 Ratings that make a little more sense to me:
  
  
 my version (I didn't notice much, if any differences with power cables with DDC's, my baseline power cable has been SR Tesla T1SE, NOT generic cable, so this is not testing with cheapo power cables,  ( this is subject to change, but a quick rough draft is below)
  
 REALITY - 100
 Pro3A Silver TOP - not going to find out 
 Pro3A Black TOP - not going to find out
 Pro3A YELLOW TOP fed from USB power from PPA3 usb/Paul Hynes Sr3 PSU  (I own this one lol) - 85
 Pro3A YELLOW TOP fed from teradak DC30W 1mV noise  (I own this one lol) - 84.
 Pro3A YELLOW TOP fed from standard USB port(ax1200 corsair psu with 10mV noise)  (I own this one lol) - 83
 Breeze+ Cerious GE cable - ??? soon to find out
 Breeze - ??? soon to find out
 DIU8 mod + Cerious GE + Crystek 957  - ??? 
 DIU8 stock + Cerious GE - 81
 DIU8 stock +SRTesla T1SE- 81
 Melodious MX-U8 + 957 crystek - 80
 U12 modded (957s, panny caps, bellison regulator, dc linear input from TeraDak DC30W 7V) - T1SE- 79
 Melodious MX-U8 stock - 78
 Amanero Combo 384 (stock audiogd class A powered implementation -  fed from USB power from PPA3 usb/Paul Hynes Sr3 PSU) - 77
 U12 stock +Cerious GE (powered from AC regenerator and 20uV noise linear powered source for 5v usb power) - 76
 U12 stock +SRTesla T1SE (powered from AC regenerator and 20uV noise linear powered source for 5v usb power) - 76
  
  
 just guesstimates at this point. I really should separate some with .5 points. Will update soon.


----------



## glip

Hi rb2013!! thank for your fast reply!!!  
 I have try those things!! …Unplugging the USB and changing the electrical connection! I see hyphens/dashes on the screen when I connect the USB… and it does not appears on de SOUD option configuration on the mac.
  
 I did no check inside the GUSTARD cabinet the voltage switch…I do not have the tool… should get them??
  
 THANKS rb2013!!
  
 PS. what is BTW??


----------



## rb2013

glip said:


> Hi rb2013!! thank for your fast reply!!!
> I have try those things!! …Unplugging the USB and changing the electrical connection! I see hyphens/dashes on the screen when I connect the USB… and it does not appears on de SOUD option configuration on the mac.
> 
> I did no check inside the GUSTARD cabinet the voltage switch…I do not have the tool… should get them??
> ...


 

 BTW=By the way.  Well I don't know what could be the problem  - other then a defective unit.


----------



## rb2013

Speaking of defective units!  I think the 1st DXIO Pro3a I recieved (black) is slightly defective.  Not only does the 2nd one sound even better - cold out of the box - but it operates better.
  
 Let me explain - I leave my systems running 24/7 - when I check on the main system in the morning with the Pro 3a black - it seems to have unlocked during the night - virtually every night.  No big deal I just close Foobar. plug in the power end of the 2G and reopen Foobar - no need for even a reboot.  But the 2nd one (silver) did not unlock last night!  Further I tried closing Foobar and reopenning with just the 2g data leg (and VBUS Blocker JB in between) - and on reopenning Foobar it worked!  So the DXIO does NOT need a USB power handshake (like the U12).  That's what I had figured as to the need to replug the power leg.  And the nightly unlocking I attributed to the nightly wind and rain storms we've been having here in the Pac NW virtually every day - they play havoc with the electrical grid.
  
 So it appears the 1st DXIO I recieved is defective!  I will be contacting DIYinHK for a replacement.
  
 That explains why the new 2nd one (silver) sounds so much better - and I expect it to getter even better with a 100 hours run time.
  
 Cheers to that!
  
 I will edit the rankings to reflect this.


----------



## FredA

rb2013 said:


> BTW=By the way.  Well I don't know what could be the problem  - other then a defective unit.




Yes. On a mac, there is normally not much fuss. It is supposed to work right away after selecting the device as output, whatever the external ddc or onboard ddc. I have tried 5-6 at least and never had a hint of a problem, besides some stability problem with most of them (have to reboot every 5 days of intensive playback).


----------



## rb2013

Oh and the CA 15 USB bridge shootout had the following ranking:
  
The final shootout score is as follows:​​ ​ Matrix 24/96 - 60​​ Hegel HD2 - 65​​ Musical Fidelity V-Link II - 75​​ Stello CDT-100 - 75​​ Bryston BDP-1 - 80​​ Halide Design The Bridge – 80 (+5 when powered from​SOtM​USBcard)​​ M2Tech HiFace Evo - 80​​ Stello U3 - 85​​ JK SPDIF Mk3 - 90​​ M2Tech HiFace Evo + Evo Supply - 90​​ Soulution 590 – 90 (+5 when powered from​SOtM​USBcard)​​ Audiophilleo 1/2 - 95​​ dCS U-Clock - 95 (+5 when used with dCS​DACand the Clock Link feature enabled)​​ Empirical Audio Off Ramp Turbo 5 - 95​​ AP1 with the PurePower battery​PSU- 95 (borderline 100)​​ M2Tech HiFace Evo + Evo Supply + Evo Clock - 100​​ dCS Scarlatti CD/SACD transport - 100 (+5 when used with dCS​DACand the Clock Link feature enabled)​​ *Berkeley Audio Designs Alpha USB – 110​*  
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/
  
 Is a EVO+clock+supply almost twice as good as a Hegel?


----------



## Currawong

I'm leaving this thread closed as the OP has bailed.
  
 I think a dedicated thread for USB converter comparisons is required at this point.


----------



## StrikeFreedom

rb2013 said:


> Too bad you didn't get the Talema version - it is better.
> 
> I assume your are talking about the TXCO SiTime SiT5000?
> 
> ...



Technical specifications 
Frequency range: 1.000 ~ 160MHz 
Frequency-temperature stability: ± 0.5ppm @ 0 ℃ ~ 50 ℃ 
And load characteristics of the output: Sine OR TTL 
Frequency Accuracy: ± 1.0ppm Max 
Aging rate: ± 1.0ppm / year Max 
Storage temperature range: -40 ~ +105 ℃ 
Load frequency stability: ± 5% load fluctuations maximum ± 0.1ppm 
Supply voltage: 5.0V or 3.3V 
Frequency voltage stability: ± 5% voltage fluctuation maximum ± 0.1ppm 
Phase noise: 10Hz: -70dBc/Hz 
                            100Hz: -100dBc/Hz 
                            1KHz: -130dBc/Hz 
                            10KHz: -140dBc/Hz 
                            100KHz: -145dBc/Hz 
Supply Current: <20mA

http://www.diytrade.com/china/pd/5042580/Supply_warming_crystal_TCXO_temperature_OCXO.html


----------



## m usicguy

I have an U12.  I think it has been the best usb to coaxial converter i have heard.  

One of my converters.  The display window doesnt show all of the display.  Like the number 8.  the flat line a crossed the middle of 8 is out.   should i be worried?  It works fine.   The reason why i ask is Gustard is overseas.   I know we all want out stuff to be perfect.  But for a number display i dont even really look at.  Or does anyone know that it effects  sound quality?

musicguy


----------



## DACLadder

m usicguy said:


> I have an U12.  I think it has been the best usb to coaxial converter i have heard.
> 
> One of my converters.  The display window doesnt show all of the display.  Like the number 8.  the flat line a crossed the middle of 8 is out.   should i be worried?  It works fine.   The reason why i ask is Gustard is overseas.   I know we all want out stuff to be perfect.  But for a number display i dont even really look at.  Or does anyone know that it effects  sound quality?
> 
> musicguy


Operationally nothing to worry about.   Either the display or the display segment driver is broken.  I have a Furman power conditioner with a broken segment in its voltage display and has been this way for years.  Just looks bad but functions normally.


----------



## amirm

I just finished testing the U12 and compared it to a few other converters (Audiophilleo, Melodious-Audio MX-8, Fiio E10K) with two DACs (Topping D30 and Exasound E32): https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-of-gustard-u12-usb-to-s-pdif-converter.2166/





The U12 didn't do all that well.


----------



## wwmhf

Thank you for sharing your experience with Gustard U12. There is a definite interest in how the U12 can perform with its I^2S output


----------



## amirm

My pleasure.  What is the best way to test that?  Is there a low cost DAC with I^2S?


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## DACLadder

The U12 is in the ballpark on SPDIF output.  +/-200mV is the SPDIF minimum spec level.   Nomimal level is +/- 500mV into a 75 ohm load.  With a short cable should work OK.  Driving a really long cable though may become a problem due to normal cable attenuation at the end point termination.   

The biggest issue with the U12 I2S output is the phase of some of the signals on the cable pairs are backward from the much more popular "PS Audio" I2S wiring method using HDMI hardware.  The U12 will play but the left and right channels are swapped plus the absolute phase of the audio signal is 180 deg out if connected to "PS Audio" wired DACs.

The U12 cost is attractive but today there are much better options for a DDC.  The U12 XMOS USB chip is dated plus the clock oscillators aren't the best.  It is a minimalist design sold for a good price.  I used a modified U12 for a long time until I purchased the SIngxer SU-1.  The SU-1 is more versatile as it has switches that allow you to configure the HDMI I2S output signals for your specific DAC.  Cost though is about 2.5 times as much but the SU-1 uses a newer XMOS chip (faster/ more memory) and employs the expensive, highly regarded, and low-jitter Crystek 957 temperature compensated oscillators.


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## amirm

Thanks for the info.  I am hesitant to spend $400 on yet another device to test.    Would you be willing/interested in loaning me your SU-1 to be measured?


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## DACLadder (Dec 19, 2017)

I use my SU-1 daily for hours on end so I can't part with it.   But forum member @bimmer100 sells the SU-1s (Kitsune HiFi) and lives in the Seattle area (I believe).  He may have a loaner.


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## Wynnytsky

DACLadder said:


> I use my SU-1 daily for hours on end so I can't part with it.   But forum member @bimmer100 sells the SU-1s (Kitsune HiFi) and lives in the Seattle area (I believe).  He may have a loaner.


I lost interest in the U12 long ago, but I was really looking forward to see how you'd phrase your reply!  I'm a generous guy but I'd sooner loan my cat than the SU-1.

I recall the PUC2 Lite being the best sounding non-I2S interface.  I wonder how the LKS 100 + a 5v TeraDak would stack up against the SU-1.


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## amirm

Wynnytsky said:


> I recall the PUC2 Lite being the best sounding non-I2S interface. I wonder how the LKS 100 + a 5v TeraDak would stack up against the SU-1.


All of these questions would be answered if the people who have them would loan them out for measurements.    It takes me a day to measure them and I can send then them back priority mail at my expense.  Such data would help the entire community.  A number of people have done so.  And I keep buying gear myself but more needs to be done if we want real data to use for our decisions as opposed to anecdotes.


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## DACLadder

What are you measuring besides the SPDIF levels on the cable?  Clock jitter is probably the most important spec of all.  That seems to separate the really great products from the average in digital audio.


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## amirm

Clock jitter only matters once it is internally filtered by the DAC (chip).  Raw clock output on S/PDIF is not relevant.  Proof of this is when I fed the multiple different S/PDIF bridges to Exasound E32:







The internal PLLs in the Exasound E32 do an excellent job here and hence, make the result the same regardless of which USB bridge is driving it.

Ultimately what you hear is the analog output of the DAC, not the clock input to the S/PDIF port.  And that is what I measure. 

Clock jitter that doesn't make it to the analog output of the DAC is immaterial.


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## amirm

Note also that low frequency clock jitter is immaterial as that is massively masked by our hearing system.  So to the extent low clock jitter is advertised as being so at low frequencies, that too is improper.


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## riffer

Nice to see some actual measurements of these devices.  I've had a bunch here (Including U12, SU-1, Off-ramp 5) and I still prefer the sound of the U12 from my Squeezebox Touch into my Audio-gd Master 7 BNC input.  I'm going to leave it in the system for now as I have other upgrades to do - namely speakers.


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## xevman

I'm probably gonna invest in either the u12 or su-1. The optical out of my pc has serious clock issues no matter what DAC i pair it with. I get audible clicks and pops whilst my music plays using the optical out. Switched from the optical out of the motherboard to the optical out of my soundcard to my various Dacs and it fixed the issue. Should pair nicely with my original Benchmark DAC1.


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## Nu3nO (Jan 21, 2018)

xevman said:


> I'm probably gonna invest in either the u12 or su-1. The optical out of my pc has serious clock issues no matter what DAC i pair it with. I get audible clicks and pops whilst my music plays using the optical out. Switched from the optical out of the motherboard to the optical out of my soundcard to my various Dacs and it fixed the issue. Should pair nicely with my original Benchmark DAC1.



If you are running Windows, you might want to check your DPC latency. If the latency is above 1ms then clicks/pops will surely occur & most of the time it's the network adapter driver causing this issue. My older Killer network driver caused this problem & I had to disable the Advanced Stream Detect feature to resolve it. The tools to check latency can be found here:

http://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml
http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon

Cheers!


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## xevman

I'll investigate but it's strange how switching to the sound cards optical out fixed the issue. If it was latency related wouldn't I have issues here aswell?


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## xevman

Highest I recorded with the latency checker was 1003 μs so I dont think its a latency issue here


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## ginetto61

amirm said:


> Clock jitter only matters once it is internally filtered by the DAC (chip).  Raw clock output on S/PDIF is not relevant.  Proof of this is when I fed the multiple different S/PDIF bridges to Exasound E32:  ...   the internal PLLs in the Exasound E32 do an excellent job here and hence, make the result the same regardless of which USB bridge is driving it.  Ultimately what you hear is the analog output of the DAC, not the clock input to the S/PDIF port.  And that is what I measure.
> Clock jitter that doesn't make it to the analog output of the DAC is immaterial.



Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting investigation.  If i understand well it looks like the spdif input of the Exasound is very unsensitive to jitter in the incoming signal ? (sorry for the bad english).  I think that the availability of an AES digital out in the Gustard U12 is a nice thing.  I have been using it with an old but nice apogee rosetta 200 and the sound was the best i have heard on my system.  Maybe the real problem is the system


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## wwmhf

xevman said:


> I'm probably gonna invest in either the u12 or su-1. The optical out of my pc has serious clock issues no matter what DAC i pair it with. I get audible clicks and pops whilst my music plays using the optical out. Switched from the optical out of the motherboard to the optical out of my soundcard to my various Dacs and it fixed the issue. Should pair nicely with my original Benchmark DAC1.



U12 can help and SU-1 helps even more. However, SU-1 is much more expensive in the re-sale market.


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## NTTY

Hi ginetto61,

Indeed.

Clock signal contained in the SPDIF is not taken into consideration by the DAC. The SPDIF clock signal will only "piliot" the PLL at the entry of your DAC. The PLL will recreate a very low jitter digital signal to send to the chip(s) doing the Digital to Analogue conversion.

If there's jitter after the PLL, it is the jitter of the PLL itself (which is normally super low).

If the jitter of the SPDIF impacts the PLL, then it means the PLL is not adapted (bad design) or that the signal in the SPDIF is really too bad (up to the point that the PLL will not even lock onto it). In this latest case, you would need to check the source and/or link providing the SPIDF signal to the DAC and correct it.

Cheers


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## ginetto61 (Mar 21, 2018)

NTTY said:


> Hi ginetto61,  Indeed. Clock signal contained in the SPDIF is not taken into consideration by the DAC. The SPDIF clock signal will only "piliot" the PLL at the entry of your DAC. *The PLL will recreate a very low jitter digital signal to send to the chip(s) doing the Digital to Analogue conversion*.   If there's jitter after the PLL, it is the jitter of the PLL itself (which is normally super low).   If the jitter of the SPDIF impacts the PLL, then it means the PLL is not adapted (bad design) or that the signal in the SPDIF is really too bad (up to the point that the PLL will not even lock onto it).
> In this latest case, you would need to check the source and/or link providing the SPIDF signal to the DAC and correct it.   Cheers



Hi ! thanks a lot for the kind and helpful explanation.
I can say that i have never had signal locking issue using the U12 with different dacs and i also have the feeling that the dac indeed provides some sort of internal reclocking.  Nevertheless Apogee used to sell also a Master Precision Clock generating unit called Big Ben but it is a little too expensive for my use.  So i have to rely on the dac's internal clock quality.
As i said previously the Gustard U12 is just working fine with AES cable and this Rosetta 200.  I like the sound because has both space and detail. It fills the room quite nicely.
With a trick i understand that the U12 can work also with a USB signal only cable.  I have to solder some pins in the relais i think. In this way it will be electrically isolated from the source, usually a noisy personal computer.  But my long term project is to power it with an external good quality linear power supply.  This should provide some further benefits.  Hopefully.
I have to say that i am just looking for a nice sound. 
I understand that for high end quality big money is needed.


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## NTTY

You're welcome 

I also use(d) the U12 with satisfaction. Initially it helped me comparing two DACs. And finally it stayed in my system. I kind of felt it was improving things although I don't understand why. And I'm still wondering if it isn't a placebo effect. I'm too lazy to run extensive testing/research anyway, ans it is practical since I don't have to mess with the computer when I want to test a new DAC. Yes, I am that lazy 

I've never had the opportunity to test a DAC with an external high-precision clock on my system, although I heard that kind of setup in couple on friends' systems. I didn't feel like I was really missing something of that on my system, so I never investigated further.

Cheers


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## ginetto61

NTTY said:


> You're welcome    I also use(d) the U12 with satisfaction. Initially it helped me comparing two DACs. And finally it stayed in my system. I kind of felt it was improving things although I don't understand why.
> And I'm still wondering if it isn't a placebo effect. I'm too lazy to run extensive testing/research anyway, ans* it is practical since I don't have to mess with the computer when I want to test a new DAC*. Yes, I am that lazy


Hi exactly my approach.  Thank you very much for confirming the good quality of the unit. 


> I've never had the opportunity to test a DAC with an external high-precision clock on my system, although I heard that kind of setup in couple on friends' systems. I didn't feel like I was really missing something of that on my system, so I never investigated further.
> Cheers


this is what i also read in some forum about the use of Big Ben.  As long as the dac has a good clock the benefits can be not substantial.  
Kind regards, gino


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## NTTY

I guess an external clock can be useful when you chain several Digital devices. So instead of hoping each clock generator in each device to create a decent clock, you put a significant amount of money into a unique one which will feed all other devices (say a transport, upsampler/decoder and DAC). It's also potentially useful with a single device, named the DAC, if you want to be 100% sure about clock quality. 
To be honest, I'm not specialist enough to comment more than that, but my understanding is that medium value PLLs will generate super clean clock signals (jitter measured below pico-second). So that is not a big issue on my perspective.

Basically, what I heard at my friends' places does not make me want to spend that much money is this very specific area. I feel like I much prefer purchasing additional records for the same money 

Ho, by the way, I forgot to mention one thing. In your DAC, after the receiver of SPDIF signal, there will most probably be an oversampling mechanism. This calculation has the nice side-effect to reduce jitter again... And if I remember correctly, a chip existed pushing this concept to the limit of huge oversampling calculation to render a digital signal almost free of jitter. I need to do some research.

What DAC do you use?


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## ginetto61 (Mar 21, 2018)

NTTY said:


> I guess an external clock can be useful when you chain several Digital devices. So instead of hoping each clock generator in each device to create a decent clock, you put a significant amount of money into a unique one which will feed all other devices (say a transport, upsampler/decoder and DAC). It's also potentially useful with a single device, named the DAC, if you want to be 100% sure about clock quality.   To be honest, I'm not specialist enough to comment more than that, but my understanding is that medium value PLLs will generate super clean clock signals (jitter measured below pico-second). So that is not a big issue on my perspective.
> Basically, what I heard at my friends' places does not make me want to spend that much money is this very specific area. I feel like I much prefer purchasing additional records for the same money   Ho, by the way, I forgot to mention one thing. In your DAC, after the receiver of SPDIF signal, there will most probably be an oversampling mechanism. This calculation has the nice side-effect to reduce jitter again... And if I remember correctly, a chip existed pushing this concept to the limit of huge oversampling calculation to render a digital signal almost free of jitter. I need to do some research.



Thank you very much indeed for the very helpful advice.  I think the same.  My system is very average and a good clock generator must be quite expensive i guess (the Big Ben costs around 1500 euro ... more than the value of my entire system i am afraid).



> What DAC do you use?


the one i used with the U12 is a pro unit from *Apogee, the Rosetta 200 *bought 2nd hand.
Then i also have a Gustard X20U (new) boxed and not even opened (i hope it is really in the box ...i have not checked. I bought it mainly for the great comments i read in a dedicated thread on this forum.)
Then i have an old Benchmark dac 1st edition, an Hegel HD10 and a cheap Cambridge audio Dacmagic.
I have also another usb to spdif converter ... the Melodious described here

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/melodious-mx-u8-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip.767935/

I have been frequently relocating lately so most of my things are packed away at present.
I just needed to get some opinions on the U12 quality.   Now i feel more comfortable about it.
Kind regards,  gino


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## NTTY

Interesting. I currently use the X20U, fed by the U12 (or not). I must say I am very happy with it. I was using a Rega DAC before (and still use it to connect other "standard" digital sources because the Gustard does not have enough entries). We used the Rega for quite a while. My wife and I tested several other DACs, without never liking them (and when we did, it was out of our budget).

Just like you, I purchased the X20 based on good reviews here. It eventually replaced the Rega, but I must say my oldest son (19 years old, much younger hears than mine  ) still prefers the Rega sound because, and I quote him: "Although the Rega adds a kind of thin curtain on the sound, it is more charming especially on the vocals". Both the Rega and the X20 have a very comparable "representation" of the music. The X20 is "cleaner" on my perspective without being more aggressive, that's why I prefer it.

I had the great chance to compare their results to super high-end, super expensive and appraised other DACs, and the way both (Rega and Gustard) play music is perfectly in line (not to say close to) with those amazing gears I've listened to. So I am really happy with the music I hear. And although I understand the limitations of my system, I am happy to see I'm not that far, but for a fraction of money. Super value for money.

When you give a chance to your X20, let me know what you think about it. I'd be interested.

Cheers


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## ginetto61 (Mar 21, 2018)

Hi and thanks again for the very interesting reply.   You say ...



NTTY said:


> Interesting. I currently use the X20U, fed by the U12 (or not). ... Cheers



do you mean that you have also tested the dac using directly the usb input ?
i am not so sure that mine has the usb board i should check but in case what difference in sound you get using the usb port on the X20U and instead the U12 ?  
this could simplify the chain ... even if there could be a drivers issue. 

Moreover I understand that  some mods can elevate the X20U's performance sensibly ?  i am referring to this   http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Gustard_X20_Mods.html
In any case i am pretty sure on the basis of your words that the original would be just fine for me.
I am looking for soundstage and a powerful low end mostly.
I have already asked about the latter PRO version ... but i am not in a hurry and moreover i am in a difficult situation with my accomodation right now.
Thanks a lot again,  gino


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## NTTY

ginetto61 said:


> Hi and thanks again for the very interesting reply.   You say ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Gino,

Yes I compared the two (USB entry from the X20U or feed from the U12 the the X20 using 2is or AES/EBU). The difference is so tiny on my system that I'm not even sure there's a difference (my system is likely to limit hearing the difference). That said, I preferred the result with the U12 in the path, so it stayed. And that might be a pure placebo effect, you know...

I am tempted to test the X22 using the new flaship ESS9038PRO. The X20Pro is essentially the same as the X20 with the ESS9028PRO instead of ESS9018 (both chips are compatible). Considering the already very good performance of the latter, I am not expecting much difference from the X20Pro. 

Since the X22 has some architectural changes to adapt to the 9038, it could make an audible difference, not directly related to the intrinsic amazing performance of the chip, though (but because of other changes as well). That's why I'm tempted to give it a try. Short on money, though, so it will have to wait 

In terms of mods, I am not at all into this. I tried once because I was convinced by a friend who's really good in electronics. He made me purchase an amplifier and told me he could make it a killing machine. I bought the thing, and out of the box, after decent break-in, it sounded crap. It then went to my friend for some "magic". Back to my house, plugged to the speakers, my wife immediately asked me to stop the torture... And you know, that was from a friend whom I could trust. He clearly has more that decent expertise. And on top of that, he didn't ask me for any money. On his perspective, the amplifier was sounding much better, and most of all was sounding right...

So, you never know what people listen to, where, how and on what system. You can do the test with a friend. Listen together to the same piece of music, on the same system, at the same time, and ask him what he thinks. You'll be surprised that he was not focusing on the same thing as you did. So even when listening to the same music, your brain focuses more on what you like or dislike and largely ignore the rest of the signal. This is why taking advice from friends or worse, people on forums, is really risky.

The only way is to get to know people: what they like to listen to and what they say they are focusing on. If it matches with your taste, then you can start comparing your feelings to those people. When it matches more than once, you can start getting some advice from the tests and results they publish. The only other way is to listen yourself to a gear before purchasing, which is rarely easy.

Cheers


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## Serguey Terre (Jul 14, 2018)

Hello,
i from France, i just want to know why my breeze Duu8 bug at 48,96, 192 khz and not at 44, 88, 176 khz in ASIO (with any audio player and KS output foobar2k or Asio: XMOS). OS=Win10
( Driver: XMOS-Stereo-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver-2013(v2.19.0) )
but i tried :
XMOS-Stereo-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver-2023(v3.34.0)
XMOS-Stereo-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver-3033(v2.26.0)
XMOS-Stereo-USB-Audio-Class2-Driver-2023(v2.19.0)

there is 2 cristals in the breeze one for 44.1,88.2 etc.. and the other one for 48, 96 etc.. 
so it mean only one is drive from foobar.

with Direct sound ouput all bitrate works


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## jgarshon

Question for other u12 owners here. Can this unit pass an MQA encoded signal? Is it "bit perfect" capable and able to pass an MQA signal to a DAC like the MQA enabled Berkeley Audio units?

Thanks in advance!


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## jgarshon

Seems I figured this answer out myself! I had to enable the U12 as a device in Roon which then allowed me to select exclusive control and MQA rendering for the Berkeley DAC. Took me a bit to get there but it works wonderfully! This U12 is a true bargain!! Thumbs way up.


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## allhifi

Nhubley said:


> I would love to hear this!



I realize this is 4+ years later, but a U-12 purchase (Spring/Smmer 2018) proved very impressive (i2S to X-20PRO); gains in every performance/SQ parameter imaginable.

However, the biggest thrill arrived when I substituted A 'Cinnamon' (HDMi) with AQ 'Coffee'; holograpahic/dimensional, clarity/definition, articulation, staging, 'tonal realism, balance, vocals 3-D jump factor, and on and on.
Months later it continues to thrill. And the signal (Renderer/Player) is a Pi3B running Rune Audio -not Roon-) !

As an experiment, purchased an Odroid C2+ and various USB cables direct to X-20's USB input; Shunyuka (Venom) USB, WW S7 (too colored), DH Labs 'USB' (bettered previous two), and most recently a 0.75m AQ 'Coffee', that's being traded/upgraded for a 1.5m 'Diamond', to arrive some time this week.

Bottom line, the Gustard U-12 ($150.), Raspberry Pi 3B ($100/w extra), AQ 'Carbon' USB ($150.?) and AQ 'Chocolate HDMi ($100.?) is a $500. knockout/superb Renderer/Music Player (with free Rune Audio interface).

For those wishing not to spend too much, look no further; astonishing  SQ the likes I've never heard before -it fascinates/excites every single time.

(Oh, I a using a double (two) Balanced/Symmetrical AC Power Supply's; one for amplification, the other for sources -a very positive contribution to SQ. I'd say a neccessisty for powering sources -particularly digital.)

pj


----------



## allhifi

jgarshon said:


> Question for other u12 owners here. Can this unit pass an MQA encoded signal? Is it "bit perfect" capable and able to pass an MQA signal to a DAC like the MQA enabled Berkeley Audio units?
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Bit-Perfect should not be a concern if you wish to "pass"  a 'Not-Bit-Perfect' Mostly Questionable Audio signal.

Reardless, the U-12 is a brilliant performer; USB/i2S

pj


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## mezenller

I’ve just purchased an U12 and really impressed!

My problem is i want to use the i2s output with my PS Audio DirectStream Jr., but there is some pre-emphasis issue (different i2s pin configuration?). The U16 has an specific driver/firmware for PS devices. Is there any firmware/driver to solve this?

Thanks in advance.


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## Vyyy

Hello community,
Is it possible to upgrade oscilators to same higher quality like accuilicon, without makeing individual pads to sit them on board? 
Which oscilators you should recomend over original ones?
Thanks


----------



## ginetto61

Hi ! i found some interesting measurements on another site.  
To make it short, the conclusion is that with dacs with a reclocking circuit well executed  usb to spdif interfaces of different quality provide very similar results.
I tried the U12 and other very humble usb to spdif converters on a same dac from Apogee, the Rosetta 200 that has indeed a sort of reclocking circuit.  I could not hear any substantial differences in the sound.   
Maybe other dacs are more sensible to the quality of the incoming digital signal ?  
I tend to believe in reclocking being a good thing.


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## Mazay (Dec 23, 2020)

Guys, has anyone changed the LM317 regulator? I read the entire forum, it seems that there were plans to change, but no one wrote about the results. We talked about the DEXA 7805 regulator, but it's expensive. Can we keep the LM 317 or improve it somehow?


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## Mazay

abartels said:


> Привет, ребята,
> 
> 
> Сегодня я начал модифицировать часы в U12.
> ...





abartels said:


> ЧИТЬ]
> 
> Затем я пошел слушать, прежде чем снова пошить большие крышки с поглотителями 3M, просто чтобы убедиться, что все работает нормально и звучит, как и обещал!
> 
> ...


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## sukany

Hi,

I am a long time lurker but posting for the first time here. I recently obtained an used Gustard U12 but facing  a weird issue. When I plug in my USB cable from PC to U12 it does a handshake and displays the bitrate , however within 5-10 minutes it just stops receving any signal and the display shows just '-----' . Not sure where the issue might be, tried different sources (PC/Laptop and a Samsung S10 via OTG) and 2 different USB cables with the same result.


----------

