# Do Interconnects Really make a difference!??! (read on)



## Bob

So, I have been hearing all this hype about interconnects as of late on this board and I really wanted to try some “good” ones out. So, I ordered a few pair of interconnects, borrowed a few pair and dug some up from around the ol’ house. Most of the interconnects that I have my hands on are in the $80 - $250 category. I for one believe that there are bargains out there and that more expensive does not always mean better. But, before I post my thoughts on the different interconnects I want to try and answer a question that has had me very, very curious over the past few week. CAN ONE TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DIFFERENT INTECONNECTS!?!?!?!??! I try to be truly subjective when comparing things, but let’s face it, it is almost impossible to try and compare something “new” to something “old”. When one shells out a fair bit of cash for a pair of interconnects they WANT them to sound better then the old pair. If they did not, why buy them in the first place. They eagerly wait for their new toys to arrive in the mail and cannot wait to slap them in their system (we are a sad bunch by the way). Now, with all the build up about the new interconnects, you tell me if it is easy to be able to give an unbiased opinion about the performance of the new interconnects!?!?! If you said, “Bob, hell yes it is easy!”, I say to you, “LIES!!!!!” Let’s be realistic … it aint that easy. So, what is a man to do! I want to know whether or not there is truly a difference between two sets of interconnects and not be fooled into thinking one thing or another by my pesky brain!! Well, I had a thought, why not get all my buds that work in the lab that I work in at school to help out? It is true that they are Electrical Engineers and therefore are mentally inferior to just about everyone on the planet, but, I hoped that they could at least tell me if they could hear the difference between setup A and setup B. So, I drag all my gear into the lab and get da ball rolling!!

 Equipment used:

 1. BEER AND PIZZA – without the aid of beer and pizza none of this would have been possible. This is mainly due to the fact that most of the guys in the lab couldn’t give two craps about audio and needed some incentive to participate. I had to fork out the money to buy the eats, but I figured it was a fair trade because I have been really curious about whether or not one could tell the difference between interconnects.

 2. CD Player - Sony SCD-C333ES: I really love this player … I highly recommend it!

 3. Headphone Amp – MicroZOTL: I freaking love this bugger in all its blueness. Sure it is ugly but I care not. In the whole scheme of things, do looks really matter (well if you are like my girlfriend (AKA - if it aint shiny and kewl looking with lots of flashing LEDs then it has to freaking suck) you would say yes) ??? Seriously though, I have listened to about two million amps and I really, really like this one.

 4. Interconnects – Home Grown Audio’s Super Silver IIs (brand spankin new, no “burn” in) and a pair of Music Metre Signature interconnects. I feel that a few words about why these interconnects were chosen is in order. First, my buddy swears up and down that the Super Silvers are the end all be all interconnects in their price range (he is a no good person that owes me a bunch of money from last weeks poker game so do not take his word for it). I thought I would give em a shot to shut my buddy the hell up and because I was truly curious about all the hype surrounding these things. (BONUS: 30 day return policy on the SS II interconnects). I am a bit skeptical about the whole shielding issue, but I am not going to pass judgment on them until they are fully “burnt” in. The Music Metre interconnects have been around for a while and are in great shape. These two interconnects were selected primarily because if there is gonna be a difference between two interconnects, (at least two that I have in my possession) it should be between a brand-new pair of silver interconnects and some “broken in” Music metres. 

 3. Headphones – RS1s, HD600s, Sony 3000s. Well, after a short discussion we decided to just use one pair of headphones to make things a bit easier … the HD600s were the victor. Why did we use the HD600s over the other phones??? Well, because the majority of my buds in the lab thought that the HD600s looked the “coolest” (bunch of freakin weirdos if you ask me). Anyways … on to the testing!! 


 Ok, this is how things went down. I controlled all the equipment and the switching of the interconnects. None of the other guys saw the interconnects before the test nor were they able to tell whether or not the interconnects were being switched during the experiment. I slapped one of the interconnects on and turned on the music. Initially each person who participated in the experiment was given the chance to hear setup A (being told that they were listening to setup A) and then setup B (being told that they were listening to setup B) so that they could get a feel (or not get a feel) for the different interconnects. A segment of a musical track was played 20 times and the person listening had to determine whether it was setup A or setup B. I randomly picked whether or not to swap the interconnects. Is this the best way to conduct a test?? I would say not, but keep in mind that I was half in the bag by the time we started testing and at the time this seemed the best way to do things. Ok, seriously though, time for the results … out of the 8 people that participated in the test, the correct cables were chosen 100% of the time!!! This is no joke, there is that much of a difference. I initially thought that it was soooo easy to tell the difference between the two sets of interconnects, but I was not sure if it was “all in my mind”. Well, now I can say with a good bit of confidence that interconnects do make a difference. I find it hard to believe that people who have listened to a wide variety of interconnects (and if they have not listened to a wide variety of interconnects why are they opening up their pie holes and sayin that it is impossible to hear a difference between interconnects) cannot tell a difference between the various pairs. I am sure that some interconnects sound very close to each other, but some interconnects surely sound different from each other. So, give interconnects a shot, I am not saying to go out and spend tons of money on em, but get a decent pair. I think that you will be pleasantly surprised with the results. (Please forgive all the grammatical errors but it is late and I am tired!!)


----------



## lini

bob: That was a very nicely written and amusing piece of text. And what's most impressive is the 100 % figure.

 Nevertheless, I'd advise everybody to be skeptic when it comes to expensive interconnects, because often enough industry standard cables only get a nice brand name and are sold for tremendous prices. So I'd suggest to everybody who has a little experience in soldering to experiment with different coax antenna or rg-series cables, some silver solder and decent cinch/rca plugs (or forget about the soldering & the silver solder and use solderless plugs - some say, that's even better. Can't comment on that, because I wouldn't want to miss the occasion to finish some new cable and find that I forgot one of the back parts of the cinch plugs again, as usual... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).

 Greetings from SF!

 Manfred / lini


----------



## bootman

What a great piece! You had me rolling. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 What you performed was a single blinded test. You knew what interconnects were in use but your test subjects did not. The "experts" would say that this test is not really valid because it is possible for the tester to "give away" which item was in use. Personally from my own experience, I know there is a difference in ICs, so I totally agree with your conclusions, but scientificly your test is flawed.



  Quote:


 It is true that they are Electrical Engineers and therefore are mentally inferior to just about everyone on the planet, but, ... 
 

Hay! I _represent_ that remark!


----------



## davidcotton

LOL

 When I first saw the thread title I was banging my head on the table thinking "oh god not AGAIN please" (theres just been a massive debate over at the hifichoice forum)

 But this was differentt. IT WAS FUNNY

 Thank you

 Oh and as an aside I just got a new pair of ICS through the post the other day! What do I think of them? hmm to early to tell...


----------



## dhwilkin

LOL! Well, I'm not sure if the test is valid after all the beer, but it was pretty fun to read. I, of course, fully support the the test's findings.


----------



## aeberbach

Great post, Bob! I think I can usually tell the difference but of course the difference diminishes radically as price goes up. Buying $100 interconnects if have Walmart specials is probably a good move, but buying $1000 ones if you have the $100 model may not be. 

 If you care to provide beer and pizza I will be happy to assist in your next test.


----------



## Rotareneg

If you ask me, Interconnects make a HUGE difference! Just try listening to your system without any and tell me if you like the sound!


----------



## KR...

Quote:


 If you ask me, Interconnects make a HUGE difference! Just try listening to your system without any and tell me if you like the sound! 
 

LOL!!!


----------



## huy_ha

I don't know about you, but beer and/or pizza leave me bloated. Is it true what they say about hearing being less sensitive when your stomach is full (due to all the blood rushing to the gastro intestinal tract for digestion and what not)? Maybe you should have offered the food and drink as a reward...


----------



## MacDEF

Quote:


 The "experts" would say that this test is not really valid because it is possible for the tester to "give away" which item was in use. 
 

Well, a lot of those "experts" are just parrotting what they have heard elsewhere. Done properly, single-blind testing is JUST as scientifically valid as double-blind testing. If the person doing the switching does nothing that would clue the subjects in as to what switches are being done, there is absolutely no difference in validity between the two methods.

 I find that often people saying "but you didn't use double-blind testing" simply don't like the results of an experiment and are grasping for reasons to discredit it.


----------



## bootman

Quote:


 Well, a lot of those "experts" are just parrotting what they have heard elsewhere. Done properly, single-blind testing is JUST as scientifically valid as double-blind testing. If the person doing the switching does nothing that would clue the subjects in as to what switches are being done, there is absolutely no difference in validity between the two methods. 
 

Done in that way, I could not agree more!


----------



## DRCope

Nicely done. Very funny. Glad they could tell the diff, but which did they prefer?

 Interestingly enough, I've come around to Homegrown Audio Super Silver II for everything: I/C's, speaker cable, and single runs of the same 22g solid core silver wire for the internal wiring of my kit-built amps. (They were built using something else, but after hearing the IC's and speaker wire, I de-soldered all the stranded copper hookup wire in my pair of monobloks and re-wired them.)

 Even better, they're cheap as good sounding IC's go, and DIRT cheap for silver. I put considerably more expensive stuff on the shelf to gather dust in the process.


----------



## dhwilkin

Quote:


 Rotareneg said...

 If you ask me, Interconnects make a HUGE difference! Just try listening to your system without any and tell me if you like the sound! 
 

ROFL, excellent! This is going to be my new sig. for a while.


----------



## Sirwar

Should have thrown the Rat Shack gold series ICs in there for ****s 'n giggles ^_^

 Now, get your buddies back together and see if they can tell the difference between cheap and expensive optical cables ^_^
 why not do it for coax, too, while your at it.


----------



## Rotareneg

Hehe, thanks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm using two 3' RS gold cables in my system, and unless someone wants to GIVE me a better set of interconnects I don't forsee any cable upgrades other than _perhaps_ Clou cables for my HD600's just out of morbid curiosity.

 Actually I'm quite happy with my rig now, the only other addition I'm considering is an MG Head just because I feel vacuum tubes are cool, and I'm curious as to what they sound like.


----------



## Voyager

I recently purchased my first pair of descent interconnects, a pair of Nordost flatline cables for $45 and I noticed a definant improvement over the Radio Shack gold series. Though not a huge improvement, it was very worth while.


----------



## frankclone

Is there a "sweet spot" in price range of interconnects?
 When do you run into diminishing returns?
 & does anyone have a short list of best deals?


----------



## kwkarth

Quote:


 _Originally posted by frankclone _
*Is there a "sweet spot" in price range of interconnects?
 When do you run into diminishing returns?
 & does anyone have a short list of best deals? * 
 







 I used to be the skeptic of all skeptics re interconnects. After all, electron flow @ audio freqs?? cmmon.. gimme a break. Then I finally got a decent headphone amp, rediscovered my whole CD collection, and started playing with interconnects. Guess what? I convinced myself there was an audible difference! Whoa! nOw all my nOrmal engineering friends look at me funny and won't talk much to me any more
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 That's ok tho, 'cause I like what I'm hearing!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 The point of diminishing returns is determined by what your ears can hear and your pocketbook can absorb.


----------



## Hirsch

There is no such thing as the "sweet spot" in interconnects, as any interconnect is a matter of personal taste (tempered by personal wealth).

 Best deals? The following is purely my personal opinion: For portable use, I like the Acoustic Research Premium interconnect ($12 at Best Buy). This works beautifully with Panasonic CT470, Grado RA-1 and Senn HD-580. There is a portable CD version with 1/8" miniplug to RCA, so no other adapters needed. 

 The Acoustic Research Pro series is a better interconnect for a non-portable system if allowed to burn in properly (they don't sound particularly appealing right out of the blister pack). Takes a couple of days before their sound settles in. Works well with Rotel 955-ART-DIO, Creek OBH-11se, Senn HD-600 w/ Clou red. Bought online for about $15, but I'm blanking on the URL. However, in this system, I prefer MIT MI-330, which runs about $150/ one meter at audioadvisor. The AR doesn't lose much to the MIT, which is why I consider it a great buy. 

 The AR cables caught me off guard, as I had not really heard sound I could live with long-term in an inexpensive interconnect until I heard them. I would recommend listening to them to anyone looking for an interconnect upgrade while on a tight budget.

 My short list of worst deals starts and ends with Monster cables. 

 YMMV! My preferences in my systems may have absolutely no relationship to what you will like in yours. Trust your ears!


----------



## Vertigo-1

I've never really believed in paying out the butt for interconns...but I just had my first interconnect revelation today, so I can definitely chime in and say they DO sound different. My revelation came between a pair of Custom House Baracudas, and then switching back to my old Radio Shack Gold Series cables. What's funny was what I was originally trying to compare...I was trying to see if my Playstation 2 actually made a better CDP than my Denon. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 So I hooked up my RKV to the PS2, and played some music through my Sony MDR-V6s. The midrange noticeably sounded grainy, treble was given a nice soundstage but also had a grainy quality to it. Then I tried playing the same song in MP3 format, and noticed there was more bass at the expense of midrange. Then I glanced at those cables and started thinking just what if that's causing the grainy midrange? Swapped in the Rat Shacks and BOOM! Everything snapped back into a tight, focused clear sound, and that graininess was gone! The soundstage did get smaller, but the treble got back the sharp detailed quality I had been missing all this time. But the big point being, THE TWO CABLES SOUNDED DIFFERENT!


----------



## rohorn

Bob - neat test - and it sounded like it was fun to pull off!

 What I am wondering was who had control of the volume? If each test was started at "0" volume - and the listener was allowed to control it with no visual reference as to where they set it, I wonder what the results might be. Especially if YOU had any way of seeing where they set the volume on each test. Simple changes in volume can "reveal" changes in sound that are not quite what they seem - if that's the case. 

 Besides, your friends need more P & B time - all in the name of research, right?


----------



## Budgie

To make the test more scientific, I would suggest also swapping out the beer and pizza for different brands and flavor. Could have a significant affect.


----------



## El Duderino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *MacDEF* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well, a lot of those "experts" are just parrotting what they have heard elsewhere. Done properly, single-blind testing is JUST as scientifically valid as double-blind testing. If the person doing the switching does nothing that would clue the subjects in as to what switches are being done, there is absolutely no difference in validity between the two methods.

 I find that often people saying "but you didn't use double-blind testing" simply don't like the results of an experiment and are grasping for reasons to discredit it._

 

This is an incorrect statement. The reason people insist on double-blind testing is that throughout the scientific world, any researcher with any experience whatsoever knows that a single blind test will NEVER be as valid as a double blind test. 

 The reason for this is that there is absolutely no way that anyone can 100% guarantee that the non-blinded half of the experimental design did not in some way, whether intentional or not, bias the results. The only way you can truly say that a test is unbiased is if it is double-blind. 

 For example, try getting a drug approved by the FDA using a single-blinded clinical trial and you will be, literally, laughed at. Similarly, attempts to get any scientific data derived from single blind testing into a high impact journal will prove unsuccessful and rightfully so. There are countless examples, in the medical world at least, of single blind testing leading to erroneous results regardless of how insistent the investigators were regarding performing the test in a way that they believe could never possibly bias their results.

 There really is no discussion for the validity of single blinded vs. double blinded in modern science. The answer is simple...double blinded is the only 100% valid testing methodology. Oh, and before I get accused of being one of these "experts" who's talking nonsense...I've designed multiple translational research studies and clinical trials.

 El Duderino


----------



## fdhfdy

I would say "yes" afte tried a 2$ interconnects and a $50 one


----------



## EnOYiN

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fdhfdy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I would say "yes" afte tried a 2$ interconnects and a $50 one_

 

I am not saying anything at all. I am completely speechless. This thread is 7 years old. Ouch.


----------



## fordgtlover

[size=medium]Raised it from the dead.
[/size]


----------



## vo_obgyn

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *El Duderino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is an incorrect statement. The reason people insist on double-blind testing is that throughout the scientific world, any researcher with any experience whatsoever knows that a single blind test will NEVER be as valid as a double blind test. 

 The reason for this is that there is absolutely no way that anyone can 100% guarantee that the non-blinded half of the experimental design did not in some way, whether intentional or not, bias the results. The only way you can truly say that a test is unbiased is if it is double-blind. 

 For example, try getting a drug approved by the FDA using a single-blinded clinical trial and you will be, literally, laughed at. Similarly, attempts to get any scientific data derived from single blind testing into a high impact journal will prove unsuccessful and rightfully so. There are countless examples, in the medical world at least, of single blind testing leading to erroneous results regardless of how insistent the investigators were regarding performing the test in a way that they believe could never possibly bias their results.

 There really is no discussion for the validity of single blinded vs. double blinded in modern science. The answer is simple...double blinded is the only 100% valid testing methodology. Oh, and before I get accused of being one of these "experts" who's talking nonsense...I've designed multiple translational research studies and clinical trials.

 El Duderino_

 

This is what I was thinking when I first read the original post in this thread. El Duderino, your words on double blinded testing are 'spot-on." I'll back you up on this. Statistics and materials and as you noted, methods, all play important roles in testing.


----------



## Know Talent

wouldn't giving the subjects a brief listen to each cable bias the outcome? I'm no statistician but that seems odd


----------



## myinitialsaredac

I <3 you Bob,

 Truly an impressive piece of writing, you had me going "what is this man doing!" Then all of a sudden wallah =D.

 The experiment has its fault of not being double blind, but with a 100% rate, its impressive nonetheless.

 Dave


----------



## Orcin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *El Duderino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is an incorrect statement. The reason people insist on double-blind testing is that throughout the scientific world, any researcher with any experience whatsoever knows that a single blind test will NEVER be as valid as a double blind test. _

 


 CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Not only did you bump a SEVEN-year old argument err... thread, a new forum record as far as I know, but you also defied the first stickied commandment: "Thou shalt not discuss DBT of cables on this forum."

 Great job, well done!!


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *El Duderino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_..._

 

I think you miss the point, that is:
  Quote:


 *Done properly*, single-blind testing is JUST as scientifically valid as double-blind testing. 
 

You're point regards the risk of SBT not being done properly, which is not in question. Done properly, the results would be identical, clearly.

 You obviously need to define Done Properly, but that's easy. It means Done in a way that would give the same results as a DBT.

 So you got all excited over a 7 YO thread for nothing, just a mis-understanding.


----------



## TheMarchingMule

Wooow, why the hell can't anybody at least resurrect a dead thread properly and do it on a Sunday?


----------



## Mr_Junesequa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you miss the point, that is:


 You're point regards the risk of SBT not being done properly, which is not in question. Done properly, the results would be identical, clearly.

 You obviously need to define Done Properly, but that's easy. It means Done in a way that would give the same results as a DBT.

 So you got all excited over a 7 YO thread for nothing, just a mis-understanding. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 here here -

 + I always wonder what the original posters of these ancient threads would think if they came back and read them years later...i resurrected a thread about the 1g ipod and whether it was going to 'make it' as a player! that was a funny one!


----------



## El Duderino

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevenkelby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think you miss the point, that is:

 Done properly, single-blind testing is *JUST as scientifically valid *as double-blind testing.

 You're point regards the risk of SBT not being done properly, which is not in question. Done properly, the results would be identical, clearly.

 You obviously need to define Done Properly, but that's easy. It means Done in a way that would give the same results as a DBT.

 So you got all excited over a 7 YO thread for nothing, just a mis-understanding. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Ha, I didn't even realize the thread was 7 years old when I responded. Apologies.

 As far as your reply, "done properly" or not and whether or not a SBT produces the same results as a DBT is completely besides the point. Even if the results produced are identical eg 487 out of 500 people can perceive a difference, etc. in the SBT study, the methods used to obtain those results cannot SCIENTIFICALLY be considered anywhere near as valid as a DBT.

 Consider this: pharmaceutical companies spend 100s of millions of dollars on multicenter, placebo-controlled double-blind studies to prove definitively that a drug is producing the same effect as they showed years previously in an initial proof-of-concept smaller, scale single-blind study. Why go to this additional expense if both the SBT and the DBT are equivalent? Simple answer: they're not equivalent and proving something using double-blind protocols is always considered more valid regardless of what results are obtained and how they compare to a well-designed single-blind study.

 El Duderino


----------



## El Duderino

I forgot to mention that, as stated earlier, I unintentionally broke a forum rule by discussing DBT. I will refrain from carrying on with this discussion but would be happy to continue this in the "Science" sub-forum or by PM. Thanks.

 El Duderino


----------



## stevenkelby

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *El Duderino* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_..._

 

Fair enough, but I do understand what you mean, and my point is true, it's just a question of definitions and semantics that we're stuck on 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I know what you're trying to say though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'd like to talk more by PM too, but have no time to answer quickly!

 Steve


----------



## Caution

Holy crap don't people read the date stamps on posts?


----------



## krmathis

They sure do...
 Without interconnects = no sound.
 With interconnects = sound.

 The quality (material, build, design, ...) make a difference as well. Imo that is.


----------



## jenneth

Sure, they make a difference, especially when you go from a low-fi cable to mid/hi-fi cable. Much of the debates we see here occur when people start talking about the benefit going from hi-fi to super hi-fi.


----------



## Zombie_X

I think interconnects make a diifference if you get into better materials. 

 I really haven't bought many as I mainly make my own. But I can say that my silver cables sound tons better than any copper cables.


----------



## yappering

Ok well I am using a cheapo $5 radioshack mini to mini interconnect for my CD player line out to my amplifier. I wonder does it make a difference? There are just so many choices out there. Oh and where is a good place to buy an interconnect?


----------



## LeftyGorilla

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wooow, why the hell can't anybody at least resurrect a dead thread properly and do it on a Sunday?_

 

Indeed.


----------



## ChroniCali

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LeftyGorilla* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Indeed._

 

Well it was resurrected on a Saturday this time... kind of close enough.


----------



## krmathis

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheMarchingMule* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Wooow, why the hell can't anybody at least resurrect a dead thread properly and do it on a Sunday?_

 

Exactly what happened now...
 'yappering' resurrected it on Sunday March 15th.


----------



## LeftyGorilla

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *yappering* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok well I am using a cheapo $5 radioshack mini to mini interconnect for my CD player line out to my amplifier. I wonder does it make a difference? There are just so many choices out there. Oh and where is a good place to buy an interconnect?_

 

Well, then, someone should be decent enough to answer the question, since it is Sunday.

 1) Your $5 radioshack mini is totally fine.
 2) When you decide to upgrade, just pick how much you want to spend and you will be able to find a cable at that price-point. Best place to buy is here, post a message in the Cables For Sale describing what you want and how much you want to spend. Some nice Head-Fier will make one for you or sell you one.
 3) does it make a difference? See, please: Nick Charles' Cable Test and Gigantic Pissing Contest Cable Thread 

 Enjoy!


----------

