# Review: Fiio E12 (comparison to C&C BH + JDS Labs O2 + JDS Labs C421)



## Bill-P

I'm sure many are pondering about these two portable powerhouses. So this one is for you.
   
  First off, some size comparisons: (taken directly out of camera without any adjustment whatsoever)
   

   

   

   

   
  So, as you can see, E12 is almost roughly TWICE the size of C&C BH. Some people may say that E12 is still a portable amp, and... I'd agree. But seriously, it's still quite a big portable amp. It's noticeably thicker and larger than my iPhone 5. If memory serves, this means E12 is roughly twice the size of E11 as well.
   
  In terms of build quality, both E12 and C&C BH are very solid. I'm confident that if I ever get shot, then either amp can take a bullet for me. E12 in particular is very solid and hefty.
   
  And personally? I much prefer E12's design accent. Very professional, and almost too polite-looking. And no, it's not the black color. I think it's the monolithic uniform rectangular look.
   
_But does size equal sound?_ Let's find out.
   
  Here's the test chain:
  Fiio D3 connected to my MacBook via optical cable, and then the output is connected via silver RCA cable to the amp.
   
  Here's C&C BH:
   

   
  And here is Fiio E12:

   
  Both amps are connected to my two favorite headphones: Audio Technica ATH-ES10, and Audio Technica ATH-ES7. My dad's M50 gets a mention because I thought it might be interesting for those who are wondering about the bass-boosting capability of either amp.
   
  Here are some individual song tests:
   
  1) *The Beatles - Here Comes The Sun*: _I'm handing this one to Fiio E12_. No question. The sound out of E12 is not as articulated or airy as BH, but the midrange is very clean, concise, and warm. With crossfeed on, E12 gives an intimate, forward, but very layered presentation of the song, whereas BH is stuck portraying vocals to the far right side, and instruments to the far left side irregardless of what I do with the switches. In fact, SF on would make it worse as BH pushes the width of the song even further apart. It was like listening to the Beatles playing in a cave. Very weird feeling if you ask me. Meanwhile, it's emotional, intimate, and warm with E12. I think I get the gist of what Fiio is intending to do with E12 now. You throw E12 a pair of cans with lots of treble but slightly recessed midrange like the DT880, and I think you'll get quite a combo. Too bad I don't have a DT880 handy.
   
  2) *Michael Buble - Stuck In The Middle With You*: and here's a prime example of how crossfeeding doesn't always work. This song is properly recorded for stereo listening, which means vocal is properly distributed between left and right channels, and instruments are well-spread between the channels to give a surround feel. Crossfeeding condenses everything into the middle in front, but... that makes this song feel too congested. _Despite all that, I'm giving this one to E12. _It's hard to explain, but while lacking the soundstage and details of C&C BH, E12 gives Michael's voice more warmth, more... magic. Something about E12's presentation of this song sounds too right for me to ignore.
   
  3) *Eric Clapton - Tears in Heaven*: crossfeeding doesn't work here, either. _But I'm still giving this one to E12_. E12 somehow gives Eric's voice more weight and more "soul"... whereas BH gives a less convincing projection of his voice. Not that I have actually heard Eric live to compare, but I like E12's presentation of his voice here better. Crossfeeding or not. Oh, and note that at this point, I've pretty much given up on Crossfeeding for songs that were recorded after 1990.
   
  4) *Combichrist - Never Surrender*: _this one goes to E12 again_. E12 seems to portray vocals really well. BH makes the vocal too thin. Also bass has more weight and heft in E12. Even without bass boost, E12 has fuller bass than C&C BH with LF switch set to on. BH has more soundstage, though. Significantly more. But I don't think soundstage alone makes the song.
   
  5) *The Glitch Mob - Fortune Days*: oh God, my opinion is very split here. I absolutely love, love, LOVE the way E12 portrays bass here. It's just perfect. Even without bass boost. BH sounds like a hollow pit in comparison. But... BH has the massive soundstage and clarity advantage here. Funny... but the smaller BH sounds "larger" than the bigger E12. I would love to have BH's massive soundstage but with E12's bass with this song. But since I can't have it both ways (more on this later), _I'm making this one a tie_. On a side note, for those interested: E12 + bass boost gives quite a lot more vibration for this song, but... personally, I don't like how it sounds.
   
  6) *Two Steps From Hell - To Glory*: okay, I'm being unfair here. This song sounds very epic. As such, massive soundstage + clarity is an automatic win. It's not even a contest, _C&C BH takes this one by a good mile_. Still, gotta love that bass texture of E12. I really mean it. Still can't have it both ways.
   
  7) *Black Sun Empire ft. SPL - Wasteland*: okay, I'm being unfair again. This song has a lot of bass, so obviously whichever amp does bass better and clearer would win. _Fiio E12 takes this one... by a mile_. C&C BH would clip fairly early, and bass becomes a muddy static when that happens. E12 doesn't clip... at all. I turned the knob up past the point where my endurance could take, and the sound coming out of E12 is still absolutely clean. Bass hits with authority and control the kind of which seems almost impossible for a portable amp.
   
  8) *Skrillex - First Of The Year (Equinox)*: urgg... bass. I don't think I need to say more? _Fiio E12 takes this one, too_.
   
  9) *Owl City ft. Shawn Chrystopher - Alligator Sky*: this song has a lot of treble energy. As such, I admit that it's not fair for E12, since BH boosts treble and clarity by quite a lot. Still... despite all of that odd, _E12 wins again here_. I really, really, really can't overstate just how well E12 does vocal compared to BH. Even with the advantage of soundstage and treble, BH just can't pull that midrange away from E12.
   
  10) *Hatsune Miku Append - Mr. Wonder*: I'm throwing a bit of vocaloid here for the curious. It's obvious at this point which amp I prefer, so it's kind of pointless to keep adding songs. Rather than that, I'd like to throw a freebie to vocaloid fans (I'm a fan, too). If you want a portable amp that can seriously project a life-like voice, then... E12 it is.
   
  Sorry if I missed any genre up there. I obviously concentrated on just the genres that I like... mainly EDM and pop/rock. The result may be different for other genres. But... I personally know which amp I'd use more now. _Fiio E12 does so many things right that I simply can't find any way that I'd prefer C&C BH over it_. It's funny, actually, because up until yesterday, I kept thinking that Fiio E12 wouldn't be able to beat C&C BH... but... the reality is, it did, and it did so with style. The soundstage advantage of BH over E12 is actually not that big, by the way. E12 probably has about 80-90% the soundstage of BH. It's just without the treble and clarity boost of BH.
   
On that note, my memory is hazy, but if I have to rank Fiio E12 and C&C BH against other headphone amps that I have/had, it would be like this:
   
1) Fiio E12
2) JDS Labs O2 (no longer have this, so take this with a grain of salt)
3) C&C BH
4) JDS Labs C421 (no longer have this, so take this with a grain of salt)
5) cmoyBB w/ OPA627 (no longer have this, so take this with a grain of salt)
6) Fiio E11
7) Fiio E17
8) Fiio E10
9) Fiio E7
   
  So yes, I rate Fiio E12 even above O2. O2 is more transparent, and somewhat cleaner, but if I have to pick an amp that I'd power ANY headphone with, I'd pick E12.
   
*Edit:*
   
  Adding this for those interested: *what about dual-amping from BH to E12? Best of both worlds?*
   
_Well, not really_. The thing is that the LF and SF switch on BH seem to mess with the music enough that dual-amping to E12 sounds really... weird. It makes the presentation a lot warmer than it should be. It's even warmer than DAC -> E12.
   
  What about the reverse? E12 to BH? Well, then the bass refinement is lost in the process, and midrange becomes congested rather than just... warm.
   
  So no, not the best of both worlds.
   
*Post-SF Bay meet edit:*
   
  I had some extensive comparison to O2, so the post is no longer between E12 and C&C BH. But because I don't want to clog the forum with yet another post of the very same topic, I'll edit this thread.
   
  So, headphones that I plugged this combo into, with notes of which amp was the preferred one:
   
  Audio Technica A900X - *O2* (E12 adds too much warmth, and it makes the A900X sound congested, but note: A900X has a less open sound than my ES10...)
  Audio Technica ES10 - *E12* (more midrange body and bass texture with E12)
  Beyerdynamic DT880 (250 Ohm?) - *O2* (I personally prefer E12, but majority vote won out)
  Beyerdynamic T5P (with custom cable and ? mods) - *E12* (better bass control, and better midrange)
  Ultrasone Edition 8 - *E12*
  Hifiman HE-500 - *O2*
  Audeze LCD-2 - *O2*
  Sennheiser HD800 - *O2*
  Grado GS1000 - *O2*
  V-Moda M100 - *E12*
   
  It seems like a close battle, but... the two amps are not even close.
   
  O2 has a more even, balanced frequency response that doesn't favor any particular region. It's clean from top to bottom. Also soundstage is slightly bigger (width).
  E12 has a warmer tilt to the midrange, and a bit more bass articulation (without bass boost), with less micro details. Also soundstage is slightly smaller (width).
   
  Also I mistakenly thought E12 had more output power than O2. O2 has more output power than E12 in reality.
   
  Personally, I'd still rate E12 higher than O2 because E12 fits well with my personal favorite (ES10). But if I had any of the other headphones, I'd go with O2 instead.
   
  So... hope that helps. My only advice to potential owners of either of those amps is to look at what you're listening through and decide really hard whether you need more clarity, or more body to your sound.
   
  Some more notes: O2 and E12 were plugged into either an ODAC, my MacBook, or my iPhone 5.
   
*C421 comparison edit:*
   
  So... the story is, I traded my E12 for a C421 (AD8620) a few days ago.
   
  And before my memory of the E12 completely fades away, here are some quick thoughts:
   
  C421 w/ AD8620 is a lot cleaner than I remember. Maybe I had the OPA2227 version before. E12 sounds nowhere near as clean.
  Instrument separation and soundstage are very good with C421. So much so that from what little I can remember of the O2 from... a few days ago at the meet, I'd say C421 "cleanly" beats O2. Yes, pun intended.
   
  But does that mean C421 is better than E12 in every way? I don't think so.
   
  For one, I still think E12 has more articulated and effortless midrange. There are times when C421 is just way too lush/smooth that details are lost. It's like listening underwater without the distortion. On overly gritty/grainy recordings, I think it's awesome, but on lush and smooth recordings, it does take away from the listening experience slightly. I think it may be dependent on the headphone, because I hear the smoothness more prominently with my ES10.
   
  For another, I think C421's bass is flat. And by "flat", I mean... "someone kicking a cardboard box" kind of "flat". There is just no texture, no rumble, no weight, body, or anything to it. It has good impact, but I don't think it's anywhere near the level of E12. E12 does much better bass than this.
   
  And last but not least, the bigger soundstage is not always appreciated. With my dad's vintage Pioneer SE-50, soundstage on C421 is so large that it's like listening to everything inside an opera house. With classical music, it's a treat, but it's a disaster with pop/rock/jazz music.
   
  Other than those differences, it's pretty much the same as E12 vs O2. E12 is warmer, with less soundstage. C421 is cleaner, much more neutral, and has much larger soundstage.
   
  I chose E12 over O2 because of personal preference, but this time? I'd say C421 and E12 are pretty evenly matched in almost every way. If I had a choice, I'd keep both amps, and use either when my mood hits. That's just how good C421 is to me.
   
  On that note, I think C421 is superior to C&C BH in every way. And it's very "clearly" (yeah, pun intended again) a $189 value vs $100 value sort of superior.
   
  So I'm revising my ranking up there:
  1) Fiio E12 (that bass and midrange is too good for me to let go, I guess)
  2) JDS Labs C421 (I'd say it's a tie with E12, so it's not truly 2nd place)
  3) JDS Labs O2
  4) C&C BH
  5) Fiio E11
  6) and the rest...
   
  A very heartful thank you to SteveSatch for agreeing to the trade. Steve, I hope you are enjoying the E12 as much as I am enjoying your C421.


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## wes008

Awesome read! I'm soooooooo tempted to get the E12 0_0


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## Achmedisdead

Nice review! I had a feeling FiiO would continue their streak of quality gear.


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## RoMee

Thanks for the comparison review. I never bought into the C&C hype and this strengthen my opinion about it.


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## H20Fidelity

I don't think C&C BH was ever meant to compete directly with E12, more so focused as an upgrade from E11.


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## Bill-P

Quote: 





wes008 said:


> Awesome read! I'm soooooooo tempted to get the E12 0_0


 
   
  Stock is quite limited on E12, so better jump on it fast!
   
  Quote: 





achmedisdead said:


> Nice review! I had a feeling FiiO would continue their streak of quality gear.


 
   
  Yeah, they had a winner this time. I couldn't believe what I heard, either.
   
  Quote: 





romee said:


> Thanks for the comparison review. I never bought into the C&C hype and this strengthen my opinion about it.


 
   
  To be fair, C&C BH is actually better than a lot of similar-sized portable amps, so I think the hype is justified.
   
  Quote: 





h20fidelity said:


> I don't think C&C BH was ever meant to compete directly with E12, more so focused as an upgrade from E11.


 
   
  I agree! It's just that E12 is doing so much better than E11 that it leaves almost everything else in the dust here.
   
  If I were to do a C&C BH vs Fiio E11 review, the BH would obviously take the cake in every category.


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## pngwn

Which output did you use for the BH? Did it make any difference in the comparison with the E12?


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## Bill-P

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> Which output did you use for the BH? Did it make any difference in the comparison with the E12?


 
   
  When there were vocals, I used Output 1. Otherwise Output 2.
   
  But it didn't really make a difference. E12 just has much more refined midrange and bass quality.
   
  I would actually believe it if Fiio claims they took apart an O2 and added more refinements to it. That's how much better E12 is.
   
  Also, I don't think there was any problem with output power. All of the headphones used were around 30 - 40 Ohm (42 for the ES10, 38 for M50, and 32 for ES7), and they weren't particularly hard to drive.


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## Apo0th3karY

damnit head-fi. 

I already knew I was going to get an E12, but this just sold it.


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## Craigster75

I just ordered and Ultrasone Signature DJ and based on your comments regarding how well the E12 pairs with headphones that have forward treble and recessed mids, I feel I MUST purchase an E12 to do them justice.


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## pngwn

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks for the info. This comparison really has me considering buying an E12 for myself. My BH just shipped out and should be arriving in a little over a week, but the fact that the E12 does more for the bass than the BH has me itching, especially since I feel they'd pair really well with my AD900X.


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## Apo0th3karY

Woah you paid $190 for your BH?
Why. How.


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## pngwn

Whoa, wait, nevermind! i was thinking about my AD900X since I've been posting quite a bit about their price and mixed the numbers in my head... I paid the normal $99 for the BH from Pollychen.


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## Apo0th3karY

Oh okay, thanks for clearing that up.
   
  I feel like the price-performance ratio for both of these amps is pretty incredible considering this comparison, and that the E12 is only $20 more. I thought the BH was good at $100.... But from this comparison it sounds like they're both different stroked for different folks. I mean, like H20 said, the BH has 80 hours battery which to my knowledge is unrivaled in the portable amp world. And they both have different strengths and weaknesses. I for one prefer sound stage over vocal presentation considering I listen to mostly drum and bass. 
   
  I'm curious to compare the bass between these two on my M-100. I wouldn't say the LF switch muddies the bass on the BH, but it should also be noted that the LF switch also boosts highs a bit. If what you say about the E12's bass is true, It might be my go-to over the BH, but the E12 has a lesser bass boost at +3dB @ 80hz diminishing, and the BH is kind of unknown, but I'm certain it's more than +3dB but I have no idea what the frequency peaks and valleys are. 
   
  I wish there was better solid information on the BH other than poorly translated descriptions making it seem like a sketchier product than it actually is.
   
  Oh, I'm going to note that the BH's shape and size fit nicely in the hand, that flask-ish bevel is very ergonomic. But when it comes to build, I found the volume pot on my BH is crooked, it rotates on a slight axis by like, a degree (I'll post pics later in the main BH thread). This by no means is a fatal flaw as it functions entirely as it should. 
   
  I still think this SF switch has some serious WOW factor to it. 
   
   
  EDIT: I mentioned it in the main BH thread, but I meant to post it here; I think ti'd only be fair, for comparison sake, to do a three way between these the E12, BH, and C5. These three are either recently released, or recently praised in the case of the BH


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## pngwn

I'm truly curious to see how my AD900X will sound through the BH and E12. I'll get the E12 in a month probably after I've spent a good deal of time with the BH. The soundstage of the 900X is already pretty incredible, so I'm anxious to test how OUT 1 and 2 sound with SF on and off. I'm most interested in the bass boost as the 900X could use a bit more, even if they're not exactly anemic. Would be nice to see how my old 700 does, though.
   
  Gotta say, the E12 looks ******* sexy, but the size of the BH looks a lot better. I feel I'll probably use the two amps interchangeably in the future depending on my mood.
   
  If you do get the E12, Apo0th3karY, do post your thoughts on the M-100's performance with it compared to the BH! Thinking about purchasing those headphones in the future.


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## bcallen

Many thanks for the review!
   
  Didn't know the C&C BH came in a silver casing (from Pollychen).  All previous postings I've run across showed it as black.  Reviewed Polly's ad and noticed no instructions as to specify color.  Prefer the black casing myself.


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## zmoney

Thank you for this comparison, it is exactly what I have been waiting for. I thought I was sold on the BH but you've brought me back to an E12. Seems like you can't go wrong either way.


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## Bill-P

Quote: 





apo0th3kary said:


> I'm curious to compare the bass between these two on my M-100. I wouldn't say the LF switch muddies the bass on the BH, but it should also be noted that the LF switch also boosts highs a bit. If what you say about the E12's bass is true, It might be my go-to over the BH, but the E12 has a lesser bass boost at +3dB @ 80hz diminishing, and the BH is kind of unknown, but I'm certain it's more than +3dB but I have no idea what the frequency peaks and valleys are.


 
  I think you'll have to decide between having just more bass (quantity)... or having more bass quality.
   
  By that, I mean the E12 has noticeably better bass texture, body, and definition. Bass in the E12 sounds legitimately... "like bass". It sounds like Fiio secretly strapped an OPA627 in there somewhere. Well, maybe not that refined, but if you've listened to the OPA627, then you get the idea.
   
  The last time I heard bass this good in a portable headphone amp was with the $500 Portaphile 627 when I was at a meet. The cmoyBB 18V with OPA627 also comes pretty close, but it's no match to the clean output and soundstage of E12.
   
  Quote: 





pngwn said:


> I'm truly curious to see how my AD900X will sound through the BH and E12. I'll get the E12 in a month probably after I've spent a good deal of time with the BH. The soundstage of the 900X is already pretty incredible, so I'm anxious to test how OUT 1 and 2 sound with SF on and off. I'm most interested in the bass boost as the 900X could use a bit more, even if they're not exactly anemic. Would be nice to see how my old 700 does, though.


 
  As far as soundstage goes, as I noted, E12 is already about 80-90% the soundstage of BH with SF switch on and Output 2. If BH didn't have that SF switch on, then E12 would have a larger soundstage.
   
  It's just that BH also has clarity boost (LF switch) that gives it that little edge over E12 in busy music... like Two Steps From Hell's "To Glory". Instrument separation is much better in BH over E12 in that regard, but it also makes BH sound cold and too analytical in other not-so-busy songs. The echo effect (cavern-like) is especially distracting while listening to acoustic. E12 does a pretty good job of having a large soundstage without any echo effect. And even then, E12 has a lot more depth and layers than BH.
   
  Quote: 





bcallen said:


> Didn't know the C&C BH came in a silver casing (from Pollychen).  All previous postings I've run across showed it as black.  Reviewed Polly's ad and noticed no instructions as to specify color.  Prefer the black casing myself.


 
  Yeah? To be honest, the BH is not mine. My brother got it on a trip to Asia about 2 years ago. And he just somehow conveniently "forgot" to mention it until now.
   
  They probably stopped making it in silver during that time span.
   
  Considering the BH is now 2 years old, and the E12 is a brand spanking new amp, the BH did very well.
   
  It's just that E12 is that much better. I don't just lightly consider any amp better than the O2 without good reason.


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## Atilio

Better than O2. OMG...!


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## pngwn

I couldn't help myself. Just ordered the E12. Will probably arrive before my BH. I'll be sure to post my own impressions between the two amps later as well later this month.


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## Atilio

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> I couldn't help myself. Just ordered the E12. Will probably arrive before my BH. I'll be sure to post my own impressions between the two amps later as well later this month.


 
   
  Please let us know. I'm a potential E12 OR BH buyer. Your impressions will make me decide.


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## Bill-P

Just a bit of an update.
   
  After 2 days, E12 has opened up its sound signature a lot. I personally don't believe in amp burn-in, but... this is exactly what I hear. And I'm comparing to BH, so it's not just in my head.
   
  Additionally, I have noticed after using E12 with various sources (my Galaxy S3 and iPhone 5 as pictured above, plus plugged directly into my MacBook), that the little amp seems to perform different depending on source. Very noticeably so.
   
  Out of my Galaxy S3, E12 has a relatively large soundstage, with a bit of warmth, and smooth treble.
   
  Out of my iPhone 5, E12 has also relatively large soundstage, with a hint of sibilance, and edgy treble with lots of air.
   
  Out of my MacBook, E12 has massive soundstage. It's easily twice the width and depth of what BH is capable of, which really surprised me. The rest of the sound signature is a mix between the S3 and the iPhone 5. This is the best I have heard out of any portable device... ever!
   
  Battery life is indeed around 10-12 hours (note that I'm always at about half-way on the volume knob or above). In comparison, BH can run for days without being turned off.
   
  So now I think BH has the portable advantage (smaller size, MUCH longer battery run time), but if it's sound quality, I don't think anything under $200 can touch E12 yet. Maybe JDS Labs C5 will be up to that task, but... until I hear C5, I can't really say.


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## Atilio

Interesting findings. I think I'm sold to the E12. But please tell me: isn't detail on the BH as much as on the E12? Or is it just about soundstage? Personally I don't care much about soundstage as I like forward mids. And how about the treble? People on the BH thread says the treble resolution is fantastic. Would this be true? Sorry about all these questions, but I'm in the process of buying one of the two amps. Or maybe both and compare myself.


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## Bill-P

BH is actually more detailed than E12. E12 sounds smoother, but if I want to be analytical about my music, I'd pick BH.
   
  Treble is also better on BH as both the SF and LF switches boost treble to some extent.
   
  But if you like a forward midrange, then E12 is more forward.
   
  I think it's just a matter of what you prefer. I personally prefer E12's smooth signature over BH, but that's just me.


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## Atilio

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> BH is actually more detailed than E12. E12 sounds smoother, but if I want to be analytical about my music, I'd pick BH.
> 
> Treble is also better on BH as both the SF and LF switches boost treble to some extent.
> 
> ...


 
   
  Thanks a lot. In that case I will prefer BH.


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## simonpking

Quote: 





atilio said:


> Better than O2. OMG...!


 
   
  +1 and thanks for the review Bill.


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## Bill-P

Quote: 





simonpking said:


> +1 and thanks for the review Bill.


 
   
  No problem. I'll be attending the SF Bay Area meet in 2 weeks. There should be at least one O2, and some other portable amps there. Plus more headphones. I'll write up more comparisons after the meet then.


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## waynes world

pngwn said:


> I couldn't help myself. Just ordered the E12. Will probably arrive before my BH. I'll be sure to post my own impressions between the two amps later as well later this month.




Awesome! I just got the ad900x headphones as well, so I'm really looking forward to your impressions of the ad900x's with both the BH and E12.


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## AppleDappleman

Any comparisons to the headstage arrow 4g/3g?


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## Bill-P

Quote: 





atilio said:


> Thanks a lot. In that case I will prefer BH.


 
   
  By the way, I forgot to mention this, but the ATH-M50 plays better with BH than with E12. And I think I should give BH points for playing nice with warm and closed headphones.
   
  Well, it's just another week until I get to do another writeup.
   
  Quote: 





waynes world said:


> Awesome! I just got the ad900x headphones as well, so I'm really looking forward to your impressions of the ad900x's with both the BH and E12.


 
   
  I think there's very good chance that I'll have the chance to audition an AD900X at the meet, so I'll be sure to write up more about that as well.
   
   


appledappleman said:


> Any comparisons to the headstage arrow 4g/3g?


   


  Sorry, I don't own any of those. So...


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## wes008

Just a quick question, did you use crossfeed all the time, or did you stop using it when you said that you gave up?


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## campj

Quote: 





atilio said:


> Better than O2. OMG...!


 
  I have to disagree. The E12 sounds good, but the O2 is better at instrument separation, soundstage, clarity, and neutrality. The E12 has it beat in portability and bass boost, but that's about it as far as I can tell. It's definitely punchier too, but that could be considered a con to some folks.


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## Bill-P

Quote: 





wes008 said:


> Just a quick question, did you use crossfeed all the time, or did you stop using it when you said that you gave up?


 
   
  I'm actually keeping it off now, since most of my music (except for The Beatles) doesn't really benefit from it.
   
  Recently recorded songs seem to have crossfeed already built-in.
   
  Quote: 





campj said:


> I have to disagree. The E12 sounds good, but the O2 is better at instrument separation, soundstage, clarity, and neutrality. The E12 has it beat in portability and bass boost, but that's about it as far as I can tell. It's definitely punchier too, but that could be considered a con to some folks.


 
   
  I'll have the chance to do a direct comparison to O2 next week, so I'll know how that fares.
   
  But from what I can remember of O2, I don't think it beats E12 at instrument separation or soundstage. If anything, E12 has O2 beat in power output.


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## pngwn

> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  Please do! I've been listening to the BH and E12 through my AD900X since I just got both of them in the past two days, but I'd love to read your thoughts on their performance with both amps.


----------



## campj

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> I'll have the chance to do a direct comparison to O2 next week, so I'll know how that fares.
> 
> But from what I can remember of O2, I don't think it beats E12 at instrument separation or soundstage. If anything, E12 has O2 beat in power output.


 
   
  You're going to listen with an agenda now though... prove me wrong at all costs! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Seriously though, the E12 is close to the O2, but it sounds a bit more congested and up front. Not that it's bad, but the O2 is a giant. 
   
  All I have used to compare the two is my Grados while listening to some extremely fast death metal (Rings of Saturn if anyone cares).


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> Please do! I've been listening to the BH and E12 through my AD900X since I just got both of them in the past two days, but I'd love to read your thoughts on their performance with both amps.


 
   
  You're just going to torture me, aren't you?


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





campj said:


> You're going to listen with an agenda now though... prove me wrong at all costs!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I think it's just me. I don't particularly enjoy the cold and analytical sound of the O2. That would explain why I am "prejudice" against it.
   
  Still, it's all from memory, so I may very well be proven wrong. It's just another week to go!


----------



## Techno Kid

Well now I'm tempted to get the E12 but the C&C BH has sounded so good with my SM3 I just don't think I really need it.  I think the bass sound awesome with the BH, it much tighter with more sub-bass depth and rumble.  Soundstage also sounds better and that's with the SF switch off, I really don't think it does much and I didn't like how the frequencies sounded with it on.  Over all I really like the C&C BH but I know eventually I'll get the E12.


----------



## Bill-P

Yeah, like I mentioned, the SF switch does boost high frequencies by quite a margin. It doesn't make my headphones more sibilant or harder to listen to, but it does cause issues with songs that have gobs of treble. It just blurs out treble for those songs.
   
  It's brilliant for songs that need the treble energy, though.
   
  And personally, I think C&C BH is far easier to pair with headphones and IEMs than E12. E12 adds a bit too much warmth for certain headphones (M50 comes to mind here), and it's much too powerful for low impedance IEMs. Plus C&C BH as a whole has a more neutral balance.
   
  I would advise against E12 unless you have open-back headphones with gobs of treble (Grado and Beyers?) that are hard to drive.


----------



## pngwn

So I posted a bunch of impressions about the BH and the E12 in the BH thread and thought this thread would benefit from my comparisons. 
   


> compared to the BH, the E12 loses in terms of clarity. BH with OUT2 and SF on is terrific at bringing out detail even in busy pieces like Clint Mansell's Death is the Road to Awe, which I have been using to A/B the two amps. The E12 has spectacular bass that destroys the BH's, however; texture, authority, and impact without bleeding into the midrange. The BH's bass boost in comparison to the E12's just sounds like more bass, but without the texture and layers. Not that it's bad, no; the E12's just sounds better.
> 
> Regarding treble, I'd rate the BH higher, especially on OUT2 with SF and LF. Comparing the headphone out to the E12, though, I'm happy to report that, to my ears, at least, the E12 improves the treble and clarity; still loses to the BH, though, but only barely. The BH has more sparkle and clarity than the E12. With LF and SF on, I sometimes feel the BH has _almost_ too much treble, but it's never uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


 
   


> It's pretty much down to personal preference, yeah. I'd love for any other members with both amps to chime in with their thoughts, though. Perhaps I should post this in Bill-P's thread as well or make my own with that  comprehensive comparison review I've been saying I'm gonna do...
> 
> In terms of the soundstage, the E12 still has a great soundstage, it's just not as expansive as the BH's. Then again, my AD900X has a big soundstage of its own, so perhaps the soundstage difference would be much more noticeable on different cans? Deciding between the two does basically come down to neutral, terrific soundstage and battery versus warm with exquisite bass, though.


 
   
 These comparisons were made using a FiiO L10 and AD900X. I haven't really experimented with my CW31 much between the two amps, so I can't say much about how well _my_ IEMs pair with either amp. I find myself turning on and plugging in the E12 more often than the BH. One of the main reasons I was so interested by the E12 after reading Bill-P's initial comparison was the E12's bass and it hasn't disappointed at all. I adored the BH when I received it before the E12, but after spending a few days with both, I think the E12 is just _that_ much better than the BH in terms of enjoying my music. The bit of color really compliments my AD900X, I feel.


----------



## Bill-P

Thanks, pngwn!
   
  I see you're hearing the same thing that I'm hearing.
   
  I'll bring both E12 and BH to the SF Bay Area meet next week. And then I'll compare both to whatever portable amp I can put my hands on over there.


----------



## waynes world

Quote:  





> To compare the what I think about the two amps' tones, I would say that both deliver a satisfying representation of the spectrum; however, the BH is able to deliver greater clarity, slighter more expansive soundstage, and a bit more sparkle up top while the E12 has a far more textured bass response and a magical mid range that makes me fall in love with vocals. My preference for either amp just depends on what I want to hear from my music or what genre I'm listening to.
> I've been tending to use the BH more for instrumental, classical, and sometimes general songs (alternative, indie, some pop) with vocals, while the E12 gets preference with bass heavy music like the whole of EDM (Drum and Bass, trance, progressive house, electro, fidget, dubstep, etc), some rock and metal, some orchestral pieces that prominently feature cellos.





> I've been tending to use the BH more for instrumental, classical, and sometimes general songs (alternative, indie, some pop) with vocals, while the E12 gets preference with bass heavy music like the whole of EDM (Drum and Bass, trance, progressive house, electro, fidget, dubstep, etc), some rock and metal, some orchestral pieces that prominently feature cellos.



  
 Do you have the E12v1 (original bass boost) or the modified E12?
  
 I _want to want_ the C&C due to it's much more portable size and it's much more impressive battery life. I would probably take the C&C with me to the gym occasionally as I currently do with my E11 to be used along with my clip zip and iem's. I'm not sure I would do that with the E12 though due to it's much larger size. Also, the C&C sounds like it might open up the soundstage of some of my other closed headphones (S500, Uptowns) and possibly some of my iem's. So, I _want to want_ the C&C.
  
 But I will predominantly be using the amp with my AD900X's. And based on what you said above, the E12 would be the right choice, as I listen to mainly electronic, rock, and progressive rock.
  
 So, I guess it's the E12 for me. I mainly wish that it wasn't so huge!


----------



## pngwn

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  E12v1. I don't think the modified is even out yet. You're talking about the one with more of a mid-bass boost than the original sub-bass boost, right?
   
  The BH is still very good for EDM and rock. It's not as if the E12 completely demolishes the BH, I just personally prefer the added texture to the low end and warmer overall sound. If I really had to choose just one amp, though, I might go for the BH. It's extremely portable in size, has a lot of fun options (LF, SF, OUT1 or OUT2) and the battery is unreal. Very low maintenance. The E12, on the other hand, while having a smoother and more textured sound signature, is quite large even compared to an iPod and only has a 11-ish hour battery charge.
   
  It's a tough choice because, as others in the BH have noted, the preference for one or other comes down to wanting clarity, soundstage, and extreme portability with the BH and more enjoyable, if also a bit colored, spectrum with the E12.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> E12v1. I don't think the modified is even out yet. You're talking about the one with more of a mid-bass boost than the original sub-bass boost, right?
> 
> The BH is still very good for EDM and rock. It's not as if the E12 completely demolishes the BH, I just personally prefer the added texture to the low end and warmer overall sound. If I really had to choose just one amp, though, I might go for the BH. It's extremely portable in size, has a lot of fun options (LF, SF, OUT1 or OUT2) and the battery is unreal. Very low maintenance. The E12, on the other hand, while having a smoother and more textured sound signature, is quite large even compared to an iPod and only has a 11-ish hour battery charge.
> 
> It's a tough choice because, as others in the BH have noted, the preference for one or other comes down to wanting clarity, soundstage, and extreme portability with the BH and more enjoyable, if also a bit colored, spectrum with the E12.


 
   
  Thanks. I could maybe talk myself into getting the C&C. But your quote below make me lust over the E12v1/AD900X combo!
   
  Quote: 





> The E12 has spectacular bass that destroys the BH's, however; texture, authority, and impact without bleeding into the midrange. The BH's bass boost in comparison to the E12's just sounds like more bass, but without the texture and layers. Not that it's bad, no; the E12's just sounds better.


----------



## pngwn

To be honest, the E12's bass edge is just what keeps me coming back for more. It really puts the AD900X together. I wonder how the revised bass boost will sound, though. The nice thing about the E12/AD900X pairing, at least, is that the default settings on the E12 still sound very nice. Still has a nice bass texture, just not brought a bit forward, obviously.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> To be honest, the E12's bass edge is just what keeps me coming back for more. It really puts the AD900X together. I wonder how the revised bass boost will sound, though. The nice thing about the E12/AD900X pairing, at least, is that the default settings on the E12 still sound very nice. Still has a nice bass texture, just not brought a bit forward, obviously.


 
   
  Ok, now you're really getting my trigger finger twitching for the E12. Are you pretty sure that the ones for sale (at Micca I suppose) are the same version that you have?
   
  Damn - that Micca store doesn't ship to Canada. What gives? Anywhere else they can be bought?


----------



## pngwn

Probably a question better answered in the E12 thread or in PM directly with JamesFiiO. I think the ones on sale at Micca are still the v1, though. James only just recently proposed the new bass boost, which I assume will be the mass production model.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> To be honest, the E12's bass edge is just what keeps me coming back for more. It really puts the AD900X together. I wonder how the revised bass boost will sound, though. The nice thing about the E12/AD900X pairing, at least, is that the default settings on the E12 still sound very nice. Still has a nice bass texture, just not brought a bit forward, obviously.


 

 IMO, with portable audio, the added bass is needed to properly fill out the music with ambient noise.  This gives the edge to the E12.  Plus, if I am listening portably, I tend to favor genres that benefit more from added bass.  I'm not exercising to Jewel and Norah Jones.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> IMO, with portable audio, the added bass is needed to properly fill out the music with ambient noise.  This gives the edge to the E12.  Plus, if I am listening portably, I tend to favor genres that benefit more from added bass.  *I'm not exercising to Jewel and Norah Jones*.


 
   
  What's the point of exercising then?


----------



## Apo0th3karY

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  The BH totally adds bass authority; admittedly from user impressions the E12 textures the bass better, but from what I'm understanding from user impressions is the BH seems to have a bass boost more along the lines of the E11, where the E12v1 is different from both, putting sub bass emphasis rather than midbass. 
   
  I Really wish there were better specs and understanding of what's going on inside the BH... I almost feel like sending it to Inner Fidelity for measurement when I get my E12.


----------



## pngwn

Yeah the two have different boosts. I'm curious how the new boost will compare. I like the v1 boost since that's the way I would EQ my ad900x anyway.


----------



## Bill-P

Both BH and E11 just adds more vibrations.
   
  E12 adds more bass "body" and "weight". And by that, I really mean bass has heavier impact (better impact) and control (just the right amount of vibrations) compared to BH and E11.
   
  I think you'll have to hear it for yourself. It's hard to explain what I'm trying to say until you hear it for yourself.
   
  E12's bass sounds better than both BH and E11 even without the bass boost switch.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Both BH and E11 just adds more vibrations.
> 
> E12 adds more bass "body" and "weight". And by that, I really mean bass has heavier impact (better impact) and control (just the right amount of vibrations) compared to BH and E11.
> 
> ...


 

 I think this comment highlights the quality of the E12 amp as I find similar bass improvement with Vamp and no bass boost.  Higher quality amps seem to bring out the bass in the recording and highlight it naturally rather than exaggerate through boosting those frequencies.  It is a superior, more textured bass that flows better with the entire range which, as a basshead audiophile, I appreciate.  Also, the high power of the E12 means that I don't tax the amplifier by running near full volume which I expect provides a clean, low distortion and authoritative sound to my headphones.  I think I just talked myself into the E12 as soon as the new bass boost option is available.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> Yeah the two have different boosts. I'm curious how the new boost will compare. I like the v1 boost since that's the way I would EQ my ad900x anyway.


 
   
  And because it's how I would EQ my ad900x as well, the trigger has been pulled on the E12 v1. It will take a little while to get to me here in Canada though (circuitous route lol).


----------



## Typhoon859

What is this I hear about a mod which gives another step between off and on in bass boost?  I need an amp with around 2 dB of boost with a roll-off up to around 300 Hz, and the very unfortunate thing which made me look elsewhere - away from the E12, was that the boost was just way too much, and obviously without it it's too little - something even the E11 has going for it. If this is true, where can I find the details about it?  Thanks!


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> What is this I hear about a mod which gives another step between off and on in bass boost?  I need an amp with around 2 dB in boost up to about the 300 Hz area and the very unfortunate thing which made me look elsewhere, away from the E12, was that the boost was way too much, and obviously without it it's too little - something even the E11 has going for it. If this is true, where can I find the details about it?  Thanks!


 
   
  I'm not sure about the mod of which you speak, but they are changing the bass boost as shown here. I'm surprised that the bass boost in the current version is too much, because from all accounts, it is somewhat subtle.


----------



## Typhoon859

Oh, so then nevermind...  The new one is better but it's way too much.  It's actually kind of how I thought it was anyway.  And it's not subtle by the way.  6dB is a lot!  It's very noticeable for me and if actually quantified, that's twice as loud!  (Or rather, +6 dB is twice the amount of sound pressure level.)  
   
  This isn't opinion either...  You can't subjectively say that it sounds subtle and wanting it any finer doesn't make sense.  I'm predicting a statement like that.  What I can say however is that I use bass boost to even out the frequencies and 6 dB is a crazy boost for pretty much any pair of cans.  That level is really for bassheads who can't appreciate any other frequencies.  I'm sorry but that's like the higher boost level option on the E11 and that has not only never been right, but it hasn't ever even sounded good - maybe with very specific tracks that were lacking or to which balance wasn't especially beneficial (like often with Hip Hop or something).  Never before has FiiO released an amp with this much bass boost and always before, the bass boost is what people typically liked about FiiO's amps.  Why change what was working?  The E10 had the one that generally works for most applications, the E11 gave that extra boost option, and now the E12 limits you to ONLY that much...  SOOO close this amp; I was so excited for it!

 I love FiiO as a company and what they're doing, but I hate blind fanaticism.  Come on guys, don't make yourselves believe that it's all excellent and perfect because in the end, you'd just be harming the outcome for yourselves and for everyone else.  How can anyone say that there's nothing wrong with this?  It makes it a completely useless integration.  Yes, I'm stating that as a fact, because subjectively those who don't have the ear and/or understanding would be fine with a 12 dB gain in bass saying, "This is the best sounding bass ever!"  6 dB is not even close to subtle!  If you have a pair of headphones with bad bass reproduction, then sure, that's a possibility, because 6 dB will sound like 2.  However, once again, that would make it a very unobjective assessment, likely coming from somebody uninformed.  There's nothing wrong with that, the intention here not to put down, but at the same time, it is to say that to be a bit more agnostic in any assertions has never been a bad thing


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





typhoon859 said:


> Oh, so then nevermind...  The new one is better but it's still way too much.  And it's not subtle by the way.  6dB is a lot!  It's very noticeable for me and if actually quantified, that's twice as loud!  (Or rather, +6 dB is twice the amount of sound pressure level.)
> 
> This isn't opinion either...  You can't subjectively say that it sounds subtle and wanting it any finer doesn't make sense.  I'm predicting a statement like that.  What I can say however is that I use bass boost to even out the frequencies and 6 dB is a crazy boost for pretty much any pair of cans.  That level is really for bassheads who can't appreciate any other frequencies.  I'm sorry but that's like the higher boost level option on the E11 and that has not only never been right, but it hasn't ever even sounded good - maybe with very specific tracks that were lacking or to which balance wasn't especially beneficial (like often with Hip Hop or something).  Never before has FiiO released an amp with this much bass boost and always before, the bass boost is what people typically liked about FiiO's amps.  Why change what was working?  The E10 had the one that generally works for most applications, the E11 gave that extra boost option, and now the E12 limits you to ONLY that much...  SOOO close this amp; I was so excited for it!
> 
> I love FiiO as a company and what they're doing, but I hate blind fanaticism.  Come on guys, don't make yourselves believe that it's all excellent and perfect because in the end, you'd just be harming the outcome for yourselves and for everyone else.  How can anyone say that there's nothing wrong with this?  It makes it a completely useless integration.  Yes, I'm stating that as a fact, because subjectively those who don't have the ear and/or understanding would be fine with a 12 dB gain in bass saying, "This is the best sounding bass ever!"  6 dB is not even close to subtle!  If you have a pair of headphones with bad bass reproduction, then sure, that's a possibility, because 6 dB will sound like 2.  However, once again, that would make it a very unobjective assessment, likely coming from somebody uninformed.  There's nothing wrong with that, the intention here not being to put down, but at the same time, being a bit more agnostic in your assertions has only ever been good.


 
   
  I will have to read and parse your post more carefully later. But speaking for myself (not a Fiio fanboy btw), I was talking about the _current_ version's bass boost which by most accounts is somewhat subtle, or more sub-bass specific, because it peaks at 70Hz which is way down there, and doesn't affect the mid-bass frequencies very much. I am getting this version because it apparently pairs quite nicely with my particular headphones.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> I will have to read and parse your post more carefully later. But speaking for myself (not a Fiio fanboy btw), I was talking about the _current_ version's bass boost which by most accounts is somewhat subtle, or more sub-bass specific, because it peaks at 70Hz which is way down there, and doesn't affect the mid-bass frequencies very much. I am getting this version because it apparently pairs quite nicely with my particular headphones.


 
  Mostly what I've said is that 6 dB isn't that subtle in many cases and certainly isn't so physically, and that such an amount then limits what the amp could be paired with, to only specific scenarios like possibly yours...  I don't see how it's a good call and I basically assertively stated that I'm not looking for explanations from random someones as to why they feel this was done (which I feel cannot possibly be objective), and that more people should question this, hoping that even people in your situation would agree with this assertion.


----------



## Bill-P

E12's boost is nowhere near 6dB. It's closer to 4dB, if even that.
   
  And it doesn't seem to boost anything beyond 150Hz. Any boost that goes beyond 250Hz would unfortunately bleeds into lower midrange, and I don't think that's favorable, unless you have a superbly cold and sterile headphone.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> E12's boost is nowhere near 6dB. It's closer to 4dB, if even that.
> 
> And it doesn't seem to boost anything beyond 150Hz. Any boost that goes beyond 250Hz would unfortunately bleeds into lower midrange, and I don't think that's favorable, unless you have a superbly cold and sterile headphone.


 
  Where did any of those numbers come from?.........  Are you using your ears and determining an estimate of how much boost there is and past what frequency it stops affecting?...  If they've implemented a near 6 dB boost then a near 6 dB boost it is. Not only do your cans influence the difference you're perceiving, there's no way to come out and just say that there is exactly this amount of frequency boost vs. whatever other value (especially when it's so generalized), and the volume that you listen at highly affects the relative decibel value as well.  I'm not sure what you were trying to prove with your post.  At least if I knew that, I'd then also know what to respond to and be able to disregard the blatant lack of self-doubt.  With no intent to offend, treat this more as a question than a dismissal.  Try and assess why you stated those approximations as you did and get back to us with that.  I'd actually like to know if there's anything behind that.  
   
  I wasn't making an argument that having tested the E12, I perceived way too much of a boost in low frequencies (for my headphones) - nor should I have...  The only thing to possibly debate on that front is how well it's implemented (e.g. your mention of when bass boost goes past the 250 Hz range, it often messes up the balance).  
   
  EDIT: And btw, I'm mostly referring to the new curve and it's actually closer to 5 rather than 6 as I have been mentioning.  That doesn't change anything I've said as initially it just stuck out this way (as 6 dB) because of the instant association I had/have of 6 dB translating into twice the pressure.


----------



## Bill-P

I played back a frequency sweep from 20Hz to 200Hz and measured the average decibel value with my phone. (there's an app for that)
   
  To further verify it, I also generated the same frequency sweep at different dB levels (attenuating to -12dB, -10dB, -8dB, -6dB, and -4dB, then A/B'ed them, and -6dB w/o boost + -10dB w/ boost seemed to be the closest to what E12 does.
   
  It's not just one headphone. I have tried E12 with 4 different headphones up to this point (and many more at the upcoming SF Bay Area meet) with the A/B comparison, and it all turned out to be the same. The boost is not that extreme at all.
   
  If you don't believe me, I can get people to chime in from the SF Bay Area meet. Really, the bass boost on E12 isn't a dramatic boost. I think your ears are just way too sensitive.


----------



## Typhoon859

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> I played back a frequency sweep from 20Hz to 200Hz and measured the average decibel value with my phone. (there's an app for that)
> 
> To further verify it, I also generated the same frequency sweep at different dB levels (attenuating to -12dB, -10dB, -8dB, -6dB, and -4dB, then A/B'ed them, and -6dB w/o boost + -10dB w/ boost seemed to be the closest to what E12 does.
> 
> ...


 
  I haven't actually heard the amp itself before but I've heard what is the supposed boost before (the one that I thought it was).  I knew what it would sound like.  There's a few very important things I overlooked since my first post about the bass boost, and as it turns out, you are absolutely right.  The accuracy of the proposed graph after bass boost as listed by FiiO may be a different story, but in the end, in terms of how much it boosts, I'd wager the suggested amount would be right/accurate enough.  
   
  EDIT: You seem to have seen that post I linked.  I'm not sure you picked up on its entailment.  As I mentioned here about it, I agree with you.


----------



## Bill-P

Yeah, I posted that before reading the other thread. Sorry.
   
  I'll write up a more detailed comparison with other portable amps I encounter tomorrow. And also, I will write about how the E12 pairs with different headphones. I'm anticipating these now:
   
  Audio Technica A900X
  Beyerdynamic DT880 (250 Ohm version? Hopefully I'll encounter a 600 Ohm as well)
  Sennheiser HD 600
  Sennheiser HD 650
  Audeze LCD-2 (hopefully someone will let me plug theirs into this tiny amp)
  Hifiman HE-400
  V-Moda M100
   
  And I'll make sure to note people's reactions to the E12 as well, since I may be biased toward the E12 after owning it for so long.


----------



## pngwn

If you encounter an AD900X, please share your impressions in the pairing!


----------



## Bill-P

Well, no AD900X, sadly.
   
  But good news is... I was able to listen to a lot of headphones today, and I plugged a great deal of them into the E12 and O2.
   
  Including the HD 800.
   
  And I must admit, I was wrong. O2 was the better overall amp, as it paired effortlessly with more headphones than the E12. But for the select few headphones that the E12 was able to do well with, it was clearly better than the O2.
   
  I'll edit the first post with the details.


----------



## pngwn

Ah, that's unfortunate. Given how new the ADX series is, though, I'm not surprised.


----------



## Bill-P

Yeah...
   
  But I should note that the A900X that I listened to also sounded a lot more "closed" than I originally thought. I knew they were closed-back headphones, but they sounded even more "closed" and warmer than my ES10. I know for sure the AD900X is nothing like that. It's a lot more "open" and clearer.
   
  Anyway, first post updated with the comparison.


----------



## Chris J

bill-p said:


> Yeah, I posted that before reading the other thread. Sorry.
> 
> I'll write up a more detailed comparison with other portable amps I encounter tomorrow. And also, I will write about how the E12 pairs with different headphones. I'm anticipating these now:
> 
> ...




Nice thread.

I like the O2 and DT880 comments. Sounds like the E12 would work well with my ATH-ESW10 Japans.


----------



## Bill-P

Thanks, Chris!
   
  I updated the first post with some thoughts about the newly acquired C421. To my surprise, it sounded a lot different from the C421 that I had.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Thanks, Chris!
> 
> I updated the first post with some thoughts about the newly acquired C421. To my surprise, it sounded a lot different from the C421 that I had.


 

 Fantastic comparisons that indicate to me that the E12 sounds as good as it looks IMO and as good as I hoped.  Would it be asking too much to include the Headstage Arrow 12HE in this comparison, or do you feel it is priced at a level that one should expect it to perform at a superior level to the E12?


----------



## waynes world

Yup - thanks for updating the OP with your ongoing impressions. So the E12 is still a winner. I should be getting mine any day, so I'll finally be able to have first hand experience with it


----------



## Bill-P

I think this is about the end of it, though. I have a C421 now instead of an E12, so it'll be quite hard to compare E12 with anything else going forward.
   
  I edited the thread title to reflect the comparisons. Hopefully someone will find it useful.
   
  And by the way, even as I am enjoying the lush and super clean C421, the bass quality of E12 is very sorely missed. So yeah, I think it's a winner. I'm not a basshead, but even then, I really appreciate the bass quality of E12.


----------



## waynes world

Yes, it is precisely the e12 v1 bass quality that I'm looking forward to. I love the ad900x's, but the e12 bass boost will take them over the edge


----------



## SteveSatch

I don't think there's a real winner between the C421 and E12.  They are both great, but there are differences.
   
  The E12 has more power and the bass is cleaner and better integrated with the mids.  But, the thing is a brick.  It's barely a portable amp.  The volume knob is too stiff.  It's impossible to use with a Fiio L9 LOD.  I thought the crossfeed would be fun to play with but the recessed button that requires a pin or something to move it means I won't be switching it back and forth and it really reduces the soundstage which isn't that big to begin with.
   
  The C421 really is a portable amp.  But, it doesn't feel as durable as the E12.  It does has better soundstage and more airiness that the E12.
   
  There's nits to pick with both, but I could be very happy with either as my amp.  I think I'd rather have both than either even though I'm not one to spend the time unstrapping and changing amps and lack the funds to keep multiple amps  : ) 
   
  It's up to the individual sound tastes, portability needs, and the headphones you pair with them.  I use Brainwavz HM5.


----------



## Bill-P

Yeah, I agree.
   
  Both have their respective strengths and weaknesses. That's why I wrote in the first post that E12 isn't really better than C421, or vice versa.
   
  Maybe I should list E12's weaknesses more clearly, so people would get a better idea of what they are like...


----------



## SteveSatch

Thanks for the trade : )  It's always fun to try new gear and trades make it possible when short on cash!  E12 and C421 are both winners.


----------



## Bill-P

I'm glad you're enjoying the amp! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  I'll have to check the Brainwavz HM5 out sometime, too. It seems like a solid pair of over-ear.
  It also just happens that they have new titanium-coated drivers coming for that particular model... though under a different brand:
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/652243/fischer-audio-fa-003ti-official-announce
   
  So chances are pretty high that I'll pull a trigger some time in the future.


----------



## justmusic

Would anyone care you post exactly where I could buy the Fiio E12. Not just where they think I can buy it from. I have been trying to track this product for awhile now, even all the way to Asia.


----------



## Bill-P

Here you go:
  http://www.miccastore.com/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-portable-headphone-amplifier-p-101.html?osCsid=2d2ac834eb9ff4de903c826b09ffabc6


----------



## Gintaras

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> BH is actually more detailed than E12. E12 sounds smoother, but if I want to be analytical about my music, I'd pick BH.
> 
> Treble is also better on BH as both the SF and LF switches boost treble to some extent.
> 
> ...


 
   
  @ Bill-P, was interesting reading your review but i would love to hear your impressions about the following issues on E12 compared to BH:
   
  is soundstage more airy and more detailed on E12 vs. BH?
  is decay happening smoother and hangs longer in the air on E12?
  is sound layering organically blended into single musical performance without compromising subtley details and especially cymbals?
  is treble and bass rolloff smaller on E12 vs. BH?
   
  oh year, and one more: is bass better controlled on E12? i mean bass pace and articulation when you can clearly hear which drum was hit.
   
  NB: please excuse me my push on the issue but i am really wondering about your findings and would want to have some additional color about this E12 product. in the end it's all about enjoying sound and i believe you enjoy E12 as much as i enjoy my BH


----------



## Bill-P

Well, no problem at all. I'll try to answer to the best of my abilities:
   
  1) Soundstage is larger on BH, but Fiio E12 is more airy. Sorry, I wish I could give you a different answer, but that's just how it is. The difference in soundstage between E12 and BH are actually pretty small. And BH would definitely lag behind if the SF switch and LF switch are not engaged at the same time. When SF switch is enabled, BH matches E12's soundstage, and the LF switch allows BH to have slightly more distinct instrument separation. But otherwise, I think soundstage is pretty similar between them.
   
  2) No, decay doesn't hang around longer on E12. It's about the same as BH. E12 has an edge with bass decay because it can boost sub-bass frequencies, giving more rumbles, but without congesting the sound.
   
  3) Layering is much better on E12. Bass and midrange are very detailed and articulated on E12. However, E12 doesn't try to bring out details with cymbals or any instrument that extends to high frequency.
   
  4) And here is the reason: I think E12 has slightly more high frequency roll-off compared to BH. Both the SF and LF switches on BH boost treble as well, so it's quite a night and day difference. Even without those switches, E12 still has slightly less treble extension.


----------



## Gintaras

Bill, you say ''E12 has a warmer tilt in the midrange, and a bit more bass articulation (without bass boost), with less micro details. Also soundstage is slightly smaller (width).''
   
  aren't you afraid E12 will bring in more pleasing mid-range coloration at the expense of layering and details? i find BH being fairly neutral and not much coloration to speak of. yes, i know many people want spacious warm pleasing midrange but this comes at the expense of micro detailing, highs rolloff and softening of overall musical presentation. i remember demoing one expensive Guru loudspeaker vs. my Sonus Faber Cremona M... my merchant holds Guru in high esteem because it gives so pleasing almost enveloping and smooth midrange. he was very pissed off when i told him to wire Cremonas and run a test. he told me back i was not knowing what i was doing. however when he did and Cremonas fired up even my wife (not music afficionado) jumped to her feet, like she told me with Guru blues singer was singing out of distance but with Cremonas the singer just entered the room. i must say Cremonas sounded more crisp and articulated, singer voice was nearly whispering into my ear and the whole experience left all of us speechless... mind this Guru retailed for nearly 10k Euros while Cremona all new costs 7.8k.
   
  i am afraid what i see in your review reminds me about Guru vs. Cremona... very pleasing enveloping sound put against live performance, to each his own.


----------



## Bill-P

E12 doesn't sacrifice layering. It just sounds warmer and smoother than BH. And if BH doesn't have the treble boost provided by the SF and LF switch, then it would have less soundstage than E12.
   
  I think you're misunderstanding something. Warmth doesn't necessarily come at the expense of soundstage or layering. Neither does smoothness. In fact, here's a paradox for you to consider: I now have a JDS Labs C421 that's even smoother than E12, but the midrange is noticeably less warm.


----------



## Gintaras

right, no disagreement. i just wanted to make sure we understand things the same way. mind this me hearing E11 time ago was leaving bad impressions.... is E12 so much better than E11?


----------



## Bill-P

Yes. E12 is a lot better than E11.
   
  But I think that if you want a safe bet, you may want to try JDS Labs C421. That one is better than BH, but has about the same tonality, which is very neutral.


----------



## KimChee

I really like my O2, but I've always had a thing for Fiio amps.  Maybe I'll pick up an E12 out of sheer curiosity.


----------



## Gintaras

Bill-P, no, this makes little sense since we talk about amps costing 100-130$, going up i can have whatever amp i wish. ironically before i decided to buy BH my target amp was Leckerton or Predator... both much more expensive. Now i feel happy about BH and see not much need for upgrade. This is why i was also sceptic about E12 being any much better than BH. I know best of best from the upper costing chain. However i find it most difficult to find real gems like BH costing dirty cheap and pushing much above its weight.
  I trust all what you say but i am not sure E12 will be a giant leap forward for me. also i do not see much need for upgrading now and if i need one i will go high-end way and take Terra player. but at the moment i am not compelled.


----------



## Bill-P

Well, then I'd say... don't let yourself be bothered by E12 for long. Just be content with BH.
   
  In case you ever need more midrange and bass quality, and you want to reduce treble glares, E12 is just right there.
   
  And the C421 is now discontinued. You can find it used on the market for approximately $130, so it is now unfortunately in the same ballpark as BH.


----------



## Gintaras

Bill, agree with you. sorry, I was not willing to irritate you and your test of E12 was really interesting. Lets wait how many happy users E12 will get.
   
  You know we are all different people with different ears and tastes. What I value however is when people share unbiased opinions and you did great job on this. I would NOT expect you to be BH lover and I fully understand people who love E12 better. my listen of E11 was poor result but I trust you and others who say E12 is better amp.
   
  Yes, I forgot to mention why I bumped into E12 forum. I am considering second amp because my daughter will need one. So the idea is either I keep BH and buy something for my daughter or I upgrade to hi-endish amp and give BH to my daughter. She listened to my BH with her iPhone and iPod and she loved BH.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Well, then I'd say... don't let yourself be bothered by E12 for long. Just be content with BH.
> 
> In case you ever need more midrange and bass quality, and you want to reduce treble glares, E12 is just right there.
> 
> And the C421 is now discontinued. You can find it used on the market for approximately $130, so it is now unfortunately in the same ballpark as BH.


 

 Bill,
  I am anticipating purchasing the E12 once the revised bass units are available in the US.  Regarding there significant power, do you feel the E12 has an advantage even with lower impedance headphones since the amp can be run at lower levels without being "strained" and as a result will run more cleanly?


----------



## Gintaras

I did not expect this to happen so quick but seems some people just dampen E12 for whatever reason... lol http://www.head-fi.org/t/651620/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-like-new-shipping-included

Sorry this means nothing but I could hold from posting this after seeing this accidentally while checking offers... I apologiseto Fiio owners


----------



## Gintaras

In unrelated post i found a review of jds labs c421 and leckerton uha4, seems like a very tough call ... Wonder what Bill thinks about these two if he had leckerton. Of course i talk about slim version of leckerton. Actually funny if i buy one i will make cockroach race between that and BH, will be fun.


----------



## Magicman74

Hey Bill-P do you think the E12 is too warm for Sennheiser's.  I'm not a Bass Head so the " Original" E12 is fine. I'm torn between the E12 and C&C. C5 is out of the question, For $45 more I can buy another M-Stage so the price isn't good too me.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





gintaras said:


> Bill, agree with you. sorry, I was not willing to irritate you and your test of E12 was really interesting. Lets wait how many happy users E12 will get.
> 
> You know we are all different people with different ears and tastes. What I value however is when people share unbiased opinions and you did great job on this. I would NOT expect you to be BH lover and I fully understand people who love E12 better. my listen of E11 was poor result but I trust you and others who say E12 is better amp.
> 
> Yes, I forgot to mention why I bumped into E12 forum. I am considering second amp because my daughter will need one. So the idea is either I keep BH and buy something for my daughter or I upgrade to hi-endish amp and give BH to my daughter. She listened to my BH with her iPhone and iPod and she loved BH.


 
   
  Oh no, I'm not irritated. I was only trying to understand your inquiry.
   
  There's one thing I would like to admit, though: this review is not unbiased. I liked BH a lot (you can dig up my posts about BH somewhere within the BH thread if you need the story), but I came to like E12 as I listened to it through my headphones. After that first initial impression, I already had a bias in my mind that E12 was the best portable amp I had heard, and my initial ranking of E12 over O2 and C421 reflected that. That was my bias kicking in.
   
  So I don't think you should take just my opinions on this matter. Maybe it's best if you purchase an E12 and try it out yourself. I'd also love to hear from other people's impressions regarding E12 vs BH, because I'm really not sure if I wrote all of that without letting my bias kick in.
   
  I can tell you one thing for sure, though: C421 is indeed better than BH in every way. If you are having a hard time deciding on what to get, then I'd recommend C421 over E12, especially because you like BH so much.
   
  Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Bill,
> I am anticipating purchasing the E12 once the revised bass units are available in the US.  Regarding there significant power, do you feel the E12 has an advantage even with lower impedance headphones since the amp can be run at lower levels without being "strained" and as a result will run more cleanly?


 
   
  I think the sensitivity (efficiency) of the headphone needs to be taken into account as well. Some headphones have low impedance but also low sensitivity/efficiency (orthos like the Hifiman HE series or the LCD-2), and as a result, they require lots of power. In fact, when I tried E12 with those headphones at the recent meet, E12 was definitely bumping into its upper limits.
   
  That was why O2 won out. O2 sounded effortless with those headphones, whereas E12 sounded like it could use a bit more power.
   
  If you meant low impedance but high sensitivity headphones, though, then I think E12 should be fine. My ES10 is low impedance (~40) and high sensitivity, so E12 had ample juice for it.
   
  Quote: 





gintaras said:


> In unrelated post i found a review of jds labs c421 and leckerton uha4, seems like a very tough call ... Wonder what Bill thinks about these two if he had leckerton. Of course i talk about slim version of leckerton. Actually funny if i buy one i will make cockroach race between that and BH, will be fun.


 
   
  I haven't tried the Leckerton UHA-4, to be honest. But if I were to buy another portable amp, I think it'd be the Apex Glacier...


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





magicman74 said:


> Hey Bill-P do you think the E12 is too warm for Sennheiser's.  I'm not a Bass Head so the " Original" E12 is fine. I'm torn between the E12 and C&C. C5 is out of the question, For $45 more I can buy another M-Stage so the price isn't good too me.


 
   
  If you're talking about HD 650 and HD 600, then... I'd say yeah, I think E12 is indeed too warm for those. Aside from those headphones, the only other Sennheiser that I plugged E12 in was the HD 800, which it did an okay job with, but I'd still prefer a cleaner and leaner sound on the HD 800.
   
  I think E12 is better suited for something that's pretty cold and analytical... like the V-Moda headphones, and some Beyerdynamic (not the DT770). Alternatively, if you have an analytical source (like an iPhone 4/4S/5), then E12 is also a good match for those.
   
  If you are okay with purchasing a used amp, then I'd recommend C421 instead. It's in the same ball park as E12 now, and I definitely think C421 is a better match for warm headphones.


----------



## Magicman74

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> If you're talking about HD 650 and HD 600, then... I'd say yeah, I think E12 is indeed too warm for those. Aside from those headphones, the only other Sennheiser that I plugged E12 in was the HD 800, which it did an okay job with, but I'd still prefer a cleaner and leaner sound on the HD 800.
> 
> I think E12 is better suited for something that's pretty cold and analytical... like the V-Moda headphones, and some Beyerdynamic (not the DT770).
> 
> If you are okay with purchasing a used amp, then I'd recommend C421 instead. It's in the same ball park as E12 now, and I definitely think C421 is a better match for warm headphones.


 

 Thanks for the reply. I'd be using lower end Senns, 400 series, 558 and the like. But I understand what you are saying. These are already warm headphones and the E12 might not have the colder sound I'm going for, I'm not looking for total Analytical just a tad more Mid-Treble clarity.  I have an E11 and really don't like it with the Senns, it has great Bass boosting but is a muddy sounding amp, at least to my ears and music taste.  I guess I'll pull the trigger on the C&C , the price is right and it seems like a better fit.
  If not, I can always pass it on


----------



## Gintaras

Bill, thanks that Apex thing looks great. Never seen before.... Pricewise Jds looks more tempting so is Apex worth big extra? Jds which you suggest sounds like a great amp right on the money. BH is one hell of an amp that is dirt cheap and sings so well. Of course surprise factor plays a role too because when you pony 90$ only and hear it your jaw just drops in happy disbelief... Imho BH pushes so well that I must be sure Jsd can push onto another level instead of just mere upgrading. Apex is great but price category is whole lot different and brings a question if I should pick custom made Terra and forget about all amps here )))

Hence Jds sounds more interesting while Apex + player not far from Terra which its owners claim to be true high-end without any reservations.


----------



## Craigster75

Quote: 





gintaras said:


> *I did not expect this to happen so quick but seems some people just dampen E12 for whatever reason... lol* http://www.head-fi.org/t/651620/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-like-new-shipping-included
> 
> Sorry this means nothing but I could hold from posting this after seeing this accidentally while checking offers... I apologiseto Fiio owners


 
  I don't understand the point of your post.  I viewed the listing and saw nothing unusual.  Could you please explain?


----------



## pngwn

Quote: 





craigster75 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
   
  I think Gin's poking fun at the fact that someone sold their E12 so quickly after all the hype and praise it's been getting.
   
   


gintaras said:


> Bill-P, no, this makes little sense since we talk about amps costing 100-130$, going up i can have whatever amp i wish. ironically before i decided to buy BH my target amp was Leckerton or Predator... both much more expensive. Now i feel happy about BH and see not much need for upgrade. This is why i was also sceptic about E12 being any much better than BH. I know best of best from the upper costing chain. However i find it most difficult to find real gems like BH costing dirty cheap and pushing much above its weight.
> I trust all what you say but i am not sure E12 will be a giant leap forward for me. also i do not see much need for upgrading now and if i need one i will go high-end way and take Terra player. but at the moment i am not compelled.


 

   
  I have both the BH and the E12. Personally, I think the E12 sounds just a bit better than the BH for according to my tastes for a warm and full-bodied sounds, which is coincidentally appropriate given the E12 is only just a bit more expensive than the BH by $30. The E12 is not a giant leap forward from the BH, but the FiiO's more textured bass presentation wins me over as opposed to the C&C's slightly more neutral and clear sound. Just depends on what you're looking for in your sound.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





gintaras said:


> Bill, thanks that Apex thing looks great. Never seen before.... Pricewise Jds looks more tempting so is Apex worth big extra? Jds which you suggest sounds like a great amp right on the money. BH is one hell of an amp that is dirt cheap and sings so well. Of course surprise factor plays a role too because when you pony 90$ only and hear it your jaw just drops in happy disbelief... Imho BH pushes so well that I must be sure Jsd can push onto another level instead of just mere upgrading. Apex is great but price category is whole lot different and brings a question if I should pick custom made Terra and forget about all amps here )))
> 
> Hence Jds sounds more interesting while Apex + player not far from Terra which its owners claim to be true high-end without any reservations.


 
   
  I think the Glacier's main draw is that it has a built-in DAC that can do 24-bit 96KHz, so it would be good for those occasions when I want to completely bypass the computer's built-in DAC. Some computers have pretty bad DAC after all.
   
  But that aside, yeah, I think C421 really does push it onto another level. C421 has more depth, and a cleaner, more precise presentation. BH sounds flatter, and it has slight but audible distortions in the treble and bass region when both the SF and LF switches are on at the same time.


----------



## gavinfabl

magicman74 said:


> Hey Bill-P do you think the E12 is too warm for Sennheiser's.  I'm not a Bass Head so the " Original" E12 is fine. I'm torn between the E12 and C&C. C5 is out of the question, For $45 more I can buy another M-Stage so the price isn't good too me.




I use my HD 558's with the E12. For me it's the best sound combo I've heard. At the Bristol Sound & Vision show I connected my E12 to the HD700 and HD800. Similar sound with both although I preferred the HD 700.


----------



## Bill-P

A Pioneer SE-700 just came into my hands...
   
  ...and I think this is a perfect example of why something like the Fiio E12 exists!
   
  I hope the Leckerton UHA-6S Mk.II that's coming is powerful enough for this beast.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> A Pioneer SE-700 just came into my hands...
> 
> ...and I think this is a perfect example of why something like the Fiio E12 exists!


 
   
  If I ever get a power hungry pair of headphones, then I am sure that I will be agreeing with you!
   
  For now, I will have to be satisfied with the E12 simply existing to make all of my non-power hungry headphones and iems sound amazing


----------



## dkgolfsports

Hi, I  just ordered the Audio Technica ad900x with the Fiio e12. I'm excited to see how that combination works together. The only negative is that the portable device I am using is a Zune 120, which can only interface through the headphone out.


----------



## canadien

Hello guys, will e12 and C&C BH work with my Samsung Nexus S phone? or is it only compatible with iphone? Can I pass through from PC audio connector?


----------



## Bill-P

Both E12 and BH are amplifiers, so they'll work with anything. Not just iPhones.
   
  And I think there's a common misconception that the headphone out of any device is bad, but I personally don't think so. The internal amp section of the device may skewer the sound, but there's no problem plugging an external amplifier into the headphone output of any device. You can still get good sound out of it. Maybe you'll get better out of a line-out, but that's not a necessity.


----------



## JoeH

I have read through this thread and many others, and I still can't decide which amp to get.
  I try to find an amp to partner up with K550 and IPod 5.5, which I feel the sound is very muddy , and the treble, base and normal vocal seem mixed together. Of course, I don't mean you cannot tell them apart, IPod 5.5 does have a wolfson chip and K550 is a relative good headphone. However, there is just no excitement inside.
  Does anyone can give a little insight on that?
   
  Is K550+IPod 5.5 suitable to E12? or C&C BH is better choice for K550 + IPod 5.5?
  or no matter which one I choose I won't see much improvement, because the problem is the DAC? so to get a better player is more practical?
   
  I will appreciate your help very much.


----------



## Gintaras

Jeo, hard to tell. E12 is newer amp so you must ask people who have or had both. one of them is Bill and he posted his findings in which he liked E12 over BH.
   
  so it would wise to ask Bill-P who did side by side comparison.


----------



## JoeH

Thanks. I see.

 I read the post, but I am sure whether I should consider K550 as a warm headphone or other. I feel its sound totally depends on what source you feed it. I don't know which amp would be better to choose.
   
  Or even I am not sure how much the difference the amp would make, if I choose any of the two. so I am considering whether it would be more worthy to buy a better player than just to get a BH or E12 pair up with IPod 5.5.


----------



## Achmedisdead

Quote: 





joeh said:


> I have read through this thread and many others, and I still can't decide which amp to get.
> I try to find an amp to partner up with K550 and IPod 5.5, which I feel the sound is very muddy , and the treble, base and normal vocal seem mixed together. Of course, I don't mean you cannot tell them apart, IPod 5.5 does have a wolfson chip and K550 is a relative good headphone. However, there is just no excitement inside.
> Does anyone can give a little insight on that?
> 
> ...


 
  I don't find the 5.5 muddy at all....and I use the line-out with the FiiO E11, which some people say sounds dark (which I disagree with).


----------



## JoeH

Quote: 





achmedisdead said:


> I don't find the 5.5 muddy at all....and I use the line-out with the FiiO E11, which some people say sounds dark (which I disagree with).


 
  yes. I think I just didn't say it right. Actually I don't think it is muddy, but it is just hard to describe that kind of feeling.
   
  Does  pairing up IPod 5.5 with E11 make a lot of difference?


----------



## Achmedisdead

Quote: 





joeh said:


> yes. I think I just didn't say it right. Actually I don't think it is muddy, but it is just hard to describe that kind of feeling.
> 
> Does  pairing up IPod 5.5 with E11 make a lot of difference?


 
  I think the 5.5  has what some some call a non-fatiguing sound, an analog type sound....you can listen to it all day long without needing to take a break. And if you Rockbox it, then you'd have a 10 band parametric EQ and bunch of other adjustments you could make, if you so desired. I'm not using the EQ, but I do have the Meier-style crossfeed enabled....it's a very subtle crossfeed that doesn't ruin the separation in early stereo mixes, just tones it down the slightest little bit.
   
  Since I don't use sensitive IEMs, then I don't notice a sound signature difference when using my FiiO amps (E11 and E6) as long as I don't engage the bass boost of the amps. There's just more power available. If one was using sensitive IEMs, then headphone-out vs. line-out could make a much more noticeable difference. I do prefer the volume control of my amps rather than relying on the clickwheel for volume adjustments, but that doesn't bother everyone.
   
  For you, it's possible Rockbox alone could let you make the changes you want without needing to get an amp at all....it's worth a shot, plus it lets you bypass iTunes.


----------



## JoeH

Quote: 





achmedisdead said:


> I think the 5.5  has what some some call a non-fatiguing sound, an analog type sound....you can listen to it all day long without needing to take a break. And if you Rockbox it, then you'd have a 10 band parametric EQ and bunch of other adjustments you could make, if you so desired. I'm not using the EQ, but I do have the Meier-style crossfeed enabled....it's a very subtle crossfeed that doesn't ruin the separation in early stereo mixes, just tones it down the slightest little bit.
> 
> Since I don't use sensitive IEMs, then I don't notice a sound signature difference when using my FiiO amps (E11 and E6) as long as I don't engage the bass boost of the amps. There's just more power available. If one was using sensitive IEMs, then headphone-out vs. line-out could make a much more noticeable difference. I do prefer the volume control of my amps rather than relying on the clickwheel for volume adjustments, but that doesn't bother everyone.
> 
> For you, it's possible Rockbox alone could let you make the changes you want without needing to get an amp at all....it's worth a shot, plus it lets you bypass iTunes.


 
  Thank you for your advise. I will give it a shot. 
  I think what you mentioned helped me understand a little more about what I felt. 
  IPod 5.5 doesn't color its songs, and K550 is also pretty neutral, so adding them up, they just truly interpret the sound as it is. Sometimes    I feel like listening to many people play all kinds of instrument simultaneously to me, and all the sounds are so distinct from each other. Maybe it is because of that, it makes me feel going crazy. maybe the good separation of sounds provided by IPod 5.5 and K550 threw me off. I think crossfeed should worth a shot.
   
  Thanks.


----------



## Moab

I currently do not own headphones or a headphone amp. I would like a great sounding portable setup. I have a 5.5 gen IPod Classic. I have considered the E11 and the Sennheiser H D-25 II headphones more than any other equipment. The E-12 sounds great also. I assume I do not need an amp with a DAC for the 5.5 gen IPod?

What is a great portable setup with the iPod I have? I am very interested in the E-12.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





joeh said:


> I have read through this thread and many others, and I still can't decide which amp to get.
> I try to find an amp to partner up with K550 and IPod 5.5, which I feel the sound is very muddy , and the treble, base and normal vocal seem mixed together. Of course, I don't mean you cannot tell them apart, IPod 5.5 does have a wolfson chip and K550 is a relative good headphone. However, there is just no excitement inside.
> Does anyone can give a little insight on that?
> 
> ...


 
   
  You mean the sound is "congested"? And by that, I really mean that there's no distinction between different instruments and vocals.
   
  If that's the case, C&C BH is the better choice.
   
  Also, just to say, but Wolfson isn't a guarantee of good sound. At least not relative to what we have now. I think you'll want an amp that slightly boosts treble or clarity to go along with any wolfson-based audio player.
   
  Quote: 





moab said:


> I currently do not own headphones or a headphone amp. I would like a great sounding portable setup. I have a 5.5 gen IPod Classic. I have considered the E11 and the Sennheiser H D-25 II headphones more than any other equipment. The E-12 sounds great also. I assume I do not need an amp with a DAC for the 5.5 gen IPod?
> 
> What is a great portable setup with the iPod I have? I am very interested in the E-12.


 
   
  As above, C&C BH. It boosts treble, and it makes up for the warm and mellow wolfson DAC in the 5.5 iPod.


----------



## HeatFan12

Kick @ss  review Bill....


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





heatfan12 said:


> Kick @ss  review Bill....


 
   
  Thanks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The E12 was really something special, and it convinced me that even more sound quality can be squeezed out of something that's not an O2.


----------



## gavinfabl

dkgolfsports said:


> Hi, I  just ordered the Audio Technica ad900x with the Fiio e12. I'm excited to see how that combination works together. The only negative is that the portable device I am using is a Zune 120, which can only interface through the headphone out.




I've been using my Audio Technica ath-ad900x with the E12 & iPod Classic. For me these cans are better than my hd558s due to the additional sound staging , clarity and attack or poise.


----------



## casanova

Hi Bill,
  Can you tell me, what is the name of your silver RCA cable, which you use to connect from the Fiio D3 to an amp.
 I've been searching for one, but could not find one as fine as yours.


----------



## Bill-P

Hey.
   
  I got that cable custom-made while I was overseas. Quite a few people have asked me about it, to be honest. If you'd like to try and contact those guys, see if they'll do international shipping, then shoot me a PM.


----------



## disastermouse

bill-p said:


> I'm actually keeping it off now, since most of my music (except for The Beatles) doesn't really benefit from it.
> 
> Recently recorded songs seem to have crossfeed already built-in.
> 
> ...



The O2 won't drive planars.


----------



## Bill-P

O2 does drive planars.
   
  Just not to full volume or full potential.


----------



## disastermouse

bill-p said:


> O2 does drive planars.
> 
> Just not to full volume or full potential.



By that loose definition, then a computer headphone port or an iPhone drives them. Although the O2 won't drive them as poorly as THAT, it nonetheless drives them inadequately.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





disastermouse said:


> By that loose definition, then a computer headphone port or an iPhone drives them. Although the O2 won't drive them as poorly as THAT, it nonetheless drives them inadequately.


 
   
  Yes, precisely. You can take that up to the objective crowd and ask them if they think something as silly as a Fiio E6 would "drive" planars...
   
  I agree, though, that O2 is not adequate to drive some planars.
   
  But it's not like I'm saying planars sound awesome out of O2 or anything like that. I'm just saying... O2 does a better job of driving some planars than E12. (on a pure power output basis)
   
  Edit: and just in terms of sound, I have heard some other amps that are far better at detail-retrieving than O2... and they are at far smaller sizes as well, though they may not be adequate enough to drive planars.


----------



## disastermouse

bill-p said:


> Yes, precisely. You can take that up to the objective crowd and ask them if they think something as silly as a Fiio E6 would "drive" planars...
> 
> I agree, though, that O2 is not adequate to drive some planars.
> 
> ...



Do you think the E12 can drive Mad Dogs?


----------



## Chris J

bill-p said:


> Yes, precisely. You can take that up to the objective crowd and ask them if they think something as silly as a Fiio E6 would "drive" planars...
> 
> Edit: and just in terms of sound, I have heard some other amps that are far better at detail-retrieving than O2... and they are at far smaller sizes as well, though they may not be adequate enough to drive planars.




The Objective crowd will tell you "Science Wills It!"
 "SCIENCE WILLS IT!"

BTW, curious here, whar other little amps give you more detail retrieval than the O'?


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





disastermouse said:


> Do you think the E12 can drive Mad Dogs?


 
   
  In terms of loudness, yes.
   
  In terms of overall sound... my opinion says no.
   
  I know because I plugged the Mad Dog into the E12 at the SF Bay Area meet. I didn't like the sound coming from the E12. Neither did I like it coming from O2. I think you'll want something else for the Mad Dog. Dan had a Schiit Magni at the meet, and I think the Magni is the bare minimum that I'd consider for the Mad Dog. It's not that they are power hungry, but it seems they would benefit more from an amp that has "good sound".
   
  Quote: 





chris j said:


> The Objective crowd will tell you "Science Wills It!"
> "SCIENCE WILLS IT!"
> 
> BTW, curious here, whar other little amps give you more detail retrieval than the O'?


 
   
  I think you may want to check out the Leckerton UHA-6S Mk.II.
   
  And here are some measurements if you need ammo:
  http://scientistsaudio.blogspot.com/2012/06/leckerton-uha-6smkii-part-2.html





   
  Edit: and by the way, in case anyone is wondering: yes, the UHA-6S Mk.II is also better than E12 to me. But then the comparison is skewered... because the UHA-6S is about $150 more than the E12 (price without tax).
   
  And let's not turn this into an O2 vs the world thread. Though I'm sure we all know what the result would be. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (hint: we don't "hear" with measurements)


----------



## Luv My BASS 1

Where do you people buy the FiiO E12? I can't find it anywhere!


----------



## xxxfbsxxx

Quote: 





dkgolfsports said:


> Hi, I  just ordered the Audio Technica ad900x with the Fiio e12. I'm excited to see how that combination works together. The only negative is that the portable device I am using is a Zune 120, which can only interface through the headphone out.


 
   
  its not correct since zune hdd models have line out and im actually using a unit zune 30gb with line out adaptor


----------



## Gintaras

Luv, did you visit Fiio online store? i saw it there and you can also email them and preorder if i am not mistaken. i tried Fiio site now but its too slow loading.
   
  if i am not mistaken you find E12 product, click on it and there must be something like Buy or Order button. do not know for USA but for Europe i found this way.


----------



## acti0n

Would these pair well with the DT770 Pro 80?


----------



## jessthebest

Quote: 





acti0n said:


> Would these pair well with the DT770 Pro 80?


 
   
  I'm wondering the same thing... I have a pair of dt770/80ohm headphones that I mainly drive from my iphone (4s) and macbook pro.  I know I need to get an amp of some kind - is the fiio e12 the one to go for?  Is it worth the money? Ta for any advice


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





jessthebest said:


> I'm wondering the same thing... I have a pair of dt770/80ohm headphones that I mainly drive from my iphone (4s) and macbook pro.  I know I need to get an amp of some kind - is the fiio e12 the one to go for?  Is it worth the money? Ta for any advice


 
  I'm loving my E12 (version 1) w/ my DT770 LE.


----------



## jessthebest

Ok cool...I've taken the plunge!  Super excited about trying it out, can't wait!


----------



## ukaudiophile

Awaiting delivery of mine, will follow up once I have it to play with.


----------



## jessthebest

Just got my e12 - I'm a complete newb and this is the first time I've listened to my dt770s with an amp. I'm literally trying not to cry they sound so sweet. 1 audiophile recruited for life.  Certainly in my opinion the e12 works just great with the dt770s!


----------



## jessthebest

I'd be interested to know how other people get on with the match?...


----------



## acti0n

Quote: 





jessthebest said:


> Just got my e12 - I'm a complete newb and this is the first time I've listened to my dt770s with an amp. I'm literally trying not to cry they sound so sweet. 1 audiophile recruited for life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  What was your source when you ran them unamped and what differences does the e12 make?


----------



## Chris J

I've been using my E12 with a pair of 600 Ohm DT880s.
   
  Sweet!
  The amp has more than enough output for 600 Ohm DTs. Had to set gain to 16 dB. Not big on the bass boost though..........


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I've been using my E12 with a pair of 600 Ohm DT880s.
> 
> Sweet!
> The amp has more than enough output for 600 Ohm DTs. Had to set gain to 16 dB. *Not big on the bass boost though*..........


 
   
  V1 or V1 bass boost, and what are you not liking about it?


----------



## Stoney

Forgive me if I missed it... 
  Is there a teardown of the E12? 
  Or at least comments about the gain device?


----------



## ukaudiophile

Just got my E12 and am trying it with my B&W P5's and Sennheiser Momentum's ( running off an iPod classic and Samsung Galaxy S3). loving the improvement in all areas already and will run it like this for a while before experimenting with other settings.


----------



## Chris J

waynes world said:


> V1 or V1 bass boost, and what are you not liking about it?




It is V2, I just picked it up a few days ago.

Just too much bass for me, but maybe I'm not the right person to ask, I,m not really a bass head.
Some folks are, that's cool with me, it's just not my thing.


----------



## waynes world

You'd like v1 bass boost then I bet. And I bet you could trade for one.


----------



## jessthebest

Quote: 





acti0n said:


> What was your source when you ran them unamped and what differences does the e12 make?


 
  I ran them straight from my iphone 4s and my macbook pro.  Unamped, the sound was just 'weak' - I can't really think of a better way to describe it.  It wasn't bad, just wasn't anything to write home about and it felt lacking - my shure se215 IEMs beat my unamped dt770s hands down.  Not surprising really - they simply weren't getting enough power.
   
  With the amp - different story.  Forgive me, I don't have the technical lingo, but I *think* that what I find so breathtaking is the added soundscape the amp gives the sound.  It's like the music is all around you and things like swells in strings or echo are overwhelming - they just sound beautiful. The sound is much fuller too - warmer, smoother and generally more 'fulfilling'.  I spent 4 hours solid this morning sitting on a sofa, staring into space and doing nothing besides listening to music because I couldn't believe how good it sounded


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





waynes world said:


> You'd like v1 bass boost then I bet. And I bet you could trade for one.


 
  Yeah, I tried to get FiiO to stick with the V1 bass boost.
  I'm sure the V1 owners don't want to give their V1s up!


----------



## acti0n

Quote: 





jessthebest said:


> I ran them straight from my iphone 4s and my macbook pro.  Unamped, the sound was just 'weak' - I can't really think of a better way to describe it.  It wasn't bad, just wasn't anything to write home about and it felt lacking - my shure se215 IEMs beat my unamped dt770s hands down.  Not surprising really - they simply weren't getting enough power.
> 
> With the amp - different story.  Forgive me, I don't have the technical lingo, but I *think* that what I find so breathtaking is the added soundscape the amp gives the sound.  It's like the music is all around you and things like swells in strings or echo are overwhelming - they just sound beautiful. The sound is much fuller too - warmer, smoother and generally more 'fulfilling'.  I spent 4 hours solid this morning sitting on a sofa, staring into space and doing nothing besides listening to music because I couldn't believe how good it sounded


 
  I've read some wildly varying opinions on amping the DT770 80 ranging from tightening up the bass to having no audible effect other than loudness. From what you describe, it sounds like amping them made them an entirely different headphone.


----------



## Chris J

Quote: 





acti0n said:


> Did you do any kind of ABX testing to rule out placebo? I've read some wildly varying opinions on amping the DT770 80 ranging from tightening up the bass to having no audible effect other than loudness. From what you describe, it sounds like amping them made them an entirely different headphone.


 
  I don't think discussions of ABX testing are allowed in this forum as per Head Fi rules.


----------



## acti0n

Quote: 





chris j said:


> I don't think discussions of ABX testing are allowed in this forum as per Head Fi rules.


 
  Interesting rule. Post edited.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Yeah, I tried to get FiiO to stick with the V1 bass boost.
> I'm sure the V1 owners don't want to give their V1s up!


 
   
_This _V1 owner won't! But I'm sure that some are looking for the V2 bass boost. Another option I suppose would be to find one for sale (such as this one), and then sell yours (maybe after comparing them both to be sure of which one you like best).


----------



## nick n

they'll be highly sought after collectors items get that one while you can Wayne 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ( serious )


----------



## pngwn

I know I won't be parting with my E12v1 ;] I am curious to hear how the v2 boost is, though...


----------



## jessthebest

acti0n said:


> I've read some wildly varying opinions on amping the DT770 80 ranging from tightening up the bass to having no audible effect other than loudness. From what you describe, it sounds like amping them made them an entirely different headphone.




Well it certainly made a big difference as far as I can tell. I was pretty worried that I'd buy the amp and feel my money had been wasted but I have no worries at all. Maybe the difference is greater because I was mainly running them from my phone? ie my main source was very ill suited. I'll try listening from my mac with and without the amp and see what I think... But yeah, certainly straight from the phone it seems to make a huge difference. 

On a slightly related note, it might also depend on the production of the original record? I listened to The Knife's album 'Deep Cuts' and it didn't sound good at all, then listened to their later album 'Silent Shout' and it blew me away. I can only think it's because the production is better, perhaps giving the headphones more to work with and allowing them to shine?


----------



## Chris J

acti0n said:


> Interesting rule. Post edited.




Apparently it can cause alot of crazy arguing!


----------



## H20Fidelity

I found this comparison between E12 / E11 / C&C BH today in another thread. 

It might come in handy for some people.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/653564/review-xba-3-vs-xba-30-vs-xba-40/120#post_9342128


----------



## Gintaras

H2O, check that review, that chap used 320kbs material, not Flac or Wav. I can only confirm that c3 and BH do not like mp3, i have a few albums in mp3 on micro cards and after trying them on c3 with BH i just decided to delete them.

I am curious if he would run same comparison with more proper music material.

Hence i found his findings a bit confusing.


----------



## imackler

Quote: 





gintaras said:


> H2O, check that review, that chap used 320kbs material, not Flac or Wav. I can only confirm that c3 and BH do not like mp3, i have a few albums in mp3 on micro cards and after trying them on c3 with BH i just decided to delete them.
> 
> I am curious if he would run same comparison with more proper music material.
> 
> Hence i found his findings a bit confusing.


 
   
  Are you sure its not the actual quality of the recording? I've listened to some decent amps and never thought 320kbps sounded bad in itself. 256? Sure... But not 320 unless the original sounds bad.


----------



## Gintaras

--- sorry, freaking iPad posting twice


----------



## Gintaras

i am not sure but i have enough mp3 and can assure you there is difference ro flacs or wavs or ape. more so when i put these files on my high end i immediately can tell 320kbs apart from flac, this is why i must now find flac for music which i have only in mp3. However if i use my Cowon s9 difference is less apparent.

I do not doubt your findings but would be curious to hear your impressions with higher quality material.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





imackler said:


> Are you sure its not the actual quality of the recording? I've listened to some decent amps and never thought 320kbps sounded bad in itself. 256? Sure... But not 320 unless the original sounds bad.


 
   
  I wonder that as well. I recently debated whether to reburn all of my music to 320kbps mp3's or to FLAC. I couldn't discern much of a difference (if any) between the two, so I happily went with 320kbps (also happily because I could fit more on my microSD cards). The 320kbps mp3 files sound great through the E12, and I would be surprised if they don't sound great through the C&C BH as well.
   
  Btw, that is through my laptop + ELE DAC + E12 + AD900X or WS99. So not super high end gear.


----------



## Gintaras

Waynes, depends not only on amp but more so on the source. I find mp3 not worth on c3 and rwak but i keep only mp3 on S9 because there is small difference and no card slot to put larger card with flacs.

Yes, as ridiculous as it may sound but high quality uncompressed files are better rhan mp3 and i used to compare mp3 ripped from my collection of CDs 

I wish you would be right because flacs and wavs are damn large and consume a lot of drive space.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





gintaras said:


> Waynes, depends not only on amp but more so on the source. I find mp3 not worth on c3 and rwak but i keep only mp3 on S9 because there is small difference and no card slot to put larger card with flacs.
> 
> Yes, as ridiculous as it may sound but high quality uncompressed files are better rhan mp3 and i used to compare mp3 ripped from my collection of CDs
> 
> I wish you would be right because flacs and wavs are damn large and consume a lot of drive space.


 
   
  Sadly, I believe you lol. I guess the ELE DAC + E12 combo isn't so sensitive, or my hearing isn't so sensitive.
   
  Anyway, you are not liking the mp3 files on the Colorfly C3 + C&C BH combo, correct? I'm getting the C&C, so I'll be sure to test different file formats with it and through my different sources.
   
  Right now my portable player is the clip zip (and I use my Samsung Galaxy Tab2 quite a bit as well, but it ain't so portable lol). I am planning on using the C&C with the clip zip, and possibly/probably the file formats won't matter so much off of the clip zip. But someday I might look at getting another portable player, so I will have to keep all of this in mind.
   
  Hopefully they will be coming out with 1T micro SD cards in the not too distant future lol!


----------



## TekeRugburn

im going to take this review with a grain of salt.  Sounds like OP is still in honeymoon period.  Every fiio product that I have tried has been subpar....maybe its changed.


----------



## H20Fidelity

gintaras said:


> H2O, check that review, that chap used 320kbs material, not Flac or Wav. I can only confirm that c3 and BH do not like mp3, i have a few albums in mp3 on micro cards and after trying them on c3 with BH i just decided to delete them.
> 
> I am curious if he would run same comparison with more proper music material.
> 
> Hence i found his findings a bit confusing.




Mate, I agree, C3 does not play MP3 files overly well. I have found the same, not so much they're bad, just FLAC is much better.




tekerugburn said:


> im going to take this review with a grain of salt.  Sounds like OP is still in honeymoon period.  Every fiio product that I have tried has been subpar....maybe its changed.




To my understanding the OP had E12 for three hours before writing this comparison.


----------



## TekeRugburn

Quote: 





h20fidelity said:


> To my understanding the OP had E12 for three hours before writing this comparison.


 
   
  Wow... even shorter than I thought.  
   
  While I appreciate the effort;  I felt like I was reading a Fiio advertisement and so stopped reading


----------



## pngwn

If it makes any difference to you, I ended up buying the BH and E12 out of curiousity after reading OP's initial comparison between the two and had similar experiences with both: E12 affords far better bass texture and presence while the BH provides a very slightly wider soundstage and better detail retrieval at the cost of strong, almost sibilant highs. My impressions were made over the course of a week with both amps using an AD900x.


----------



## pngwn

Double post


----------



## Stoney

Quote: 





pngwn said:


> If it makes any difference to you, I ended up buying the BH and E12 out of curiousity after reading OP's initial comparison between the two and had similar experiences with both: E12 affords far better bass texture and presence while the BH provides a very slightly wider soundstage and better detail retrieval at the cost of strong, almost sibilant highs. My impressions were made over the course of a week with both amps using an AD900x.


 
   
  I believe these are often correlated.  A brightness or sibilance can add a sense of detail and brings out some of the soundstage auditory cues.  Even on a single amp, simply changing a setting like gain of the Arrow (and something similar on my kilobuck monoblocks) can introduce an artifact that seems desirable but also is annoying, often subconsciously.  This is one reason reviewing can take so long (the "thinking" cerebral cortex notices "aspects," but the lower-level "limbic system" is more wholistic and can sense things that are hard to "notice" deliberately).


----------



## Bill-P

tekerugburn said:


> Wow... even shorter than I thought.
> 
> While I appreciate the effort;  I felt like I was reading a Fiio advertisement and so stopped reading




You can take my points and compare it to other E12 reviews and see if I'm just advertising for Fiio. I think you'll find that most reviews share the same sentiments.

Also, I don't think you should judge an amp before you listen to it.

Plus some side notes:
- I compared E12 to O2 directly after a whole week of ownership. The sound didn't change.
- After that whole week, I promptly traded it for a JDS Labs C421, so it's not like I was in love with the amp.
- Now I have a different amp that is truly better than E12, BH, C421, and maybe even O2, but it's already beyond the scope of this thread.


----------



## Gintaras

Bill, i trust your findings on E12 but OP also wrote on E11 vs. BH and let me say his findings were contradicting my experience with both. while i would agree about sometimes overly energetic sound signature of BH i found overall musical presentation being better on BH vs. E11.
   
  no opinion on E12 since i had no chance to give it a listen and not interested in spending money out of curiousity too since my T1 will be arriving soon and i am sure T1 will be a much better amp for my setup.
   
  NB: i am always wondering if people confuse something about bass texture because for me bass is all about airy articulation where i can hear every drum element in play and tonal richness,   ... so far i find BH doing this better than E11 and cannot agree to claims like better bass texture on E11. i always prefer quality over quantity even when it means less bass attack. if i cannot hear the air moving after drum slam i would throw away such equipment immediately. someone who at least once had the chance to play or stand on stage during drums playing will understand what i mean. for me best bass is when i can feel air still moving shortly after the drums attack has stopped. and should i mention the same about bass guitar? i do not know if my English is enough to explain this but this how i hear bass.


----------



## TekeRugburn

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> You can take my points and compare it to other E12 reviews and see if I'm just advertising for Fiio. I think you'll find that most reviews share the same sentiments.
> 
> Also, I don't think you should judge an amp before you listen to it.
> 
> ...


 
  I usually try to wait until Head-fi's FOTM period is over with new gear (usually a few months) and gauge what they say about it then.  Not judging the amp...just the entire Fiio lineup; yeah thats bias but was never impressed with the fiio products.  Thats me though.
   
  Beyond the scope of this thread?  Sort of an elitist comment (no offense; just how it sounded)


----------



## Chris J

tekerugburn said:


> I usually try to wait until Head-fi's FOTM period is over with new gear (usually a few months) and gauge what they say about it then.  Not judging the amp...just the entire Fiio lineup; yeah thats bias but was never impressed with the fiio products.  Thats me though.
> 
> Beyond the scope of this thread?  Sort of an elitist comment (no offense; just how it sounded)




Elitist?
Seriously?


----------



## TekeRugburn

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Elitist?
> Seriously?


 
  yes seriously.


----------



## Gintaras

Eelitist, what U mean & why? funny....


----------



## TekeRugburn

First..im not saying this is what the OP meant but this is the way i read and interpreted it.
   
"Now I have a different amp that is truly better than E12, BH, C421, and maybe even O2, but it's already beyond the scope of this thread." =
   
I now own an amp even more superior than these aforementioned amps; it is so beyond that it should not even be mentioned in a thread about c&c, e12 and the jds amp....even though i started this thread and mentioned it in this comment I shall not name it.
   
Maybe its out of context but thats the way i read it.  Now I didn't say any ill felt comment about the op or the review.... but just by reading it; just for me... its pretty hard to discernibly have one sample beat out another sample in pretty much all aspects with just a few hours of listening to them.  There's always the honeymoon period and head-fi's patented "Flavor of the Month" toy.  Now I appreciate he took the time and wrote out his first impressions of the amp... I would like to have a Fiio product that performs well because they are at a good price point and easy to come by, but just reading that review with little or no knowledge about the E12.... it read like a Fiio advertisement.   I didn't say his views were wrong, or that they're inaccurate... im just a wary and cautious about it since his results were pretty one sided.


----------



## Gintaras

Teke, indeed funny... you know people like DAPs also different, sometimes some dudes just speak rubbish and worse they believe themselves... Now i can see your point, just did care to read every post before this.


----------



## Bill-P

Quote: 





tekerugburn said:


> First..im not saying this is what the OP meant but this is the way i read and interpreted it.
> 
> "Now I have a different amp that is truly better than E12, BH, C421, and maybe even O2, but it's already beyond the scope of this thread." =
> 
> ...


 
   
  My bad. That was poor choice of words. It was late at night, and I was dead tired, but still, no excuse!
   
  I meant that sentence this way: this thread was made specifically for reviewing the E12. Since I no longer have access to an E12, any detailed "comparison" I can "claim" is dubious at best, so I don't feel like I should write anything more on the matter. If I'm going to write up anything like that, it'll be a separate review thread, and only when I have access to another E12. Maybe I'll buy the v2 E12 just to see if Fiio has improved on the soundstage.
   
  Also if you'd like to read up a few more reviews of the E12, here are some:
   
  http://www.headfonia.com/fiios-power-pack-the-fiio-e12-mont-blanc/
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/650683/fiio-e12-mont-blanc-review-and-help-thread
  http://www.head-fi.org/t/655283/impression-fiio-e12-mont-blanc-way-to-pinnacle
   
   


gintaras said:


> Bill, i trust your findings on E12 but OP also wrote on E11 vs. BH and let me say his findings were contradicting my experience with both. while i would agree about sometimes overly energetic sound signature of BH i found overall musical presentation being better on BH vs. E11.
> 
> no opinion on E12 since i had no chance to give it a listen and not interested in spending money out of curiousity too since my T1 will be arriving soon and i am sure T1 will be a much better amp for my setup.
> 
> NB: i am always wondering if people confuse something about bass texture because for me bass is all about airy articulation where i can hear every drum element in play and tonal richness,   ... so far i find BH doing this better than E11 and cannot agree to claims like better bass texture on E11. i always prefer quality over quantity even when it means less bass attack. if i cannot hear the air moving after drum slam i would throw away such equipment immediately. someone who at least once had the chance to play or stand on stage during drums playing will understand what i mean. for me best bass is when i can feel air still moving shortly after the drums attack has stopped. and should i mention the same about bass guitar? i do not know if my English is enough to explain this but this how i hear bass.


 

   
  Well, I wrote the review.
   
  And I don't think I wrote anything along the lines of E11 vs BH. Did you post this response after reading something else?
   
  The whole first post was about E12 vs BH.
   
  Although, if you are wondering, I personally find BH better than E11 in just about every way except for bass boost, but that's just because E11 overdoes it. That's all I can remember of that, since I no longer have an E11, and the only time I got to compare them was at the beginning of March when a friend came over.
   
  My amp arsenal has just BH and Leckerton UHA-6S Mk.II now, so... that should tell you how much I still value the BH.


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## Gintaras

Bill, nothing wrong meant and i know you compared E12, but there was another chap posting about E11 outclassing BH which i found a bit too much.
   
  no worry, there was no question about questioning your opinion, i know you have honest approach to things.


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## Chris J

Quote: 





tekerugburn said:


> yes seriously.


 
   
   
  Well if Bill P posts "the other amp" in here, some might say "Why are going off topic? This is an E12, O2, BH, C421 thread! Stay on topic!"
   
  Kinda like:
  "Tails I win, heads you loose"         (with apologies to Steve Tyler, BTW!)


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## Bill-P

Yeah, if your gears need more clarity, then the E12 won't be able to do much. C&C BH would be the better deal.
   
  However, if you have a DT880 or something similar that has a lot of treble but not much else, I think E12 is going to be the better deal.


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## Chris J

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> However, if you have a DT880 or something similar that has a lot of treble but not much else....


 
   
  Say what?


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## Bill-P

Quote: 





chris j said:


> Say what?


 
   
  I mean not as much as treble.


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## Chris J

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> I mean not as much as treble.


 
   
  This is how the Hatfields and McCoys set to feudin'!
   
  OK, maybe they didn't have headphones back then.........
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  never mind! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
   
  BTW, the E12 works great with my 600 Ohm DT880s!


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## Bill-P

And I agree! It really does work well with the DT880 600. In fact, I dare say E12 is well worth its price tag when coupled with the DT880, but some people preferred the edgy and overly brighter (read: harsh and sibilant) O2 for some reason...
   
  Oh well, just goes to show not all of us hear the same thing.


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## zazex

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> And I agree! It really does work well with the DT880 600. In fact, I dare say E12 is well worth its price tag when coupled with the DT880, but some people preferred the edgy and overly brighter (read: harsh and sibilant) O2 for some reason...
> 
> Oh well, just goes to show not all of us hear the same thing.


 

 Having had an O2 for several months, I have to disagree with your characterization of it.
  It may not be a buttery sweet and rich sounding piece of gear,
  but I've never found it 'harsh and sibilant' - no matter what the source or headphones.
   
  (BTW, my E12 came in yesterday - first impressions are pretty good, but it's too soon
  to make a real determination...)


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## waynes world

Quote: 





zazex said:


> (BTW, my E12 came in yesterday - first impressions are pretty good, but it's too soon
> to make a real determination...)


 
   
  The E12 is awesome with the right source/headphones/iems. But so is the C&C BH though lol.
   
  My observations are that that E12 adds a bit of warmth, and narrows the soundstage slightly. So with a brighter source (such as my ELE DAC), or with neutral to brighter headphones/iems, and especially with headphones that are open and have a wide soundstage (such as the AD900X), the E12 is _perfect_. I have version 1, and I find that the bass boost on it is perfect as well for the applicable gear.
   
  The BH though adds a bit of brightness, and if the SF switch is used, widens the soundstage as well. I find it to be perfect for my closed, neutral to warm headphones (such as the WS99's), or for most of my iems off of a warmer source such as the Clip Zip.
   
  Ymmv of course


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## Bill-P

zazex said:


> Having had an O2 for several months, I have to disagree with your characterization of it.
> It may not be a buttery sweet and rich sounding piece of gear,
> but I've never found it 'harsh and sibilant' - no matter what the source or headphones.
> 
> ...


 

   
  Well, like I said (and also wrote in the first post), there are indeed people who have said the same thing you just wrote.
   
  It may be just me who's hearing this "harsh and sibilant" sound from the O2, but I don't think it's a fault of the particular O2 that I compared the E12 with, because I also owned a DT880 600 and O2 combo for a few months, and my opinions of that combo were pretty much just the same.
   
  So let's just say not all of us hear the same thing.


----------



## zazex

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> Well, like I said (and also wrote in the first post), there are indeed people who have said the same thing you just wrote.
> 
> It may be just me who's hearing this "harsh and sibilant" sound from the O2, but I don't think it's a fault of the particular O2 that I compared the E12 with, because I also owned a DT880 600 and O2 combo for a few months, and my opinions of that combo were pretty much just the same.
> 
> *So let's just say not all of us hear the same thing.*


 
   
  Fair enough.


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## billliu

E12 seems to be a little warm.
A more neutral or cold source such as J3 may be more suitable.
I hope the pricetag can be a little lower in Taiwan.


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## leadbythemelody

So the C&C BH is gonna be better than the e12 for the sennheiser hd650's since it has less treble (darker sound), thus needing more clarity?


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## Annafrancesca

Got the E12 yesterday. Coming from an E10 and an E7, I would say the E12 is an upgrade from both interns of SQ. Mids are thicker and bass has more impact (bass boost off). But there is something about the high mids and treble that annoys me a little. It's a nuisance using my SM3 and gets particularly annoying from LCD2. I can't pinpoint what it is, but I may need to give it a few more days to see if its my brain that needs to adjust.


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## Annafrancesca

Oh...in comparison, the RSA P51 Mustang still beats the E12 in almost every category, except maybe in power output.


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## zazex

Quote: 





annafrancesca said:


> Oh...in comparison, the RSA P51 Mustang still beats the E12 in almost every category, except maybe in power output.





>


 
   
  Haven't heard it, but at $375 vs $125 +/- for the E12 it should.


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## Annafrancesca

^^yep.

But has anyone else noticed the oh so slightly tin can-nish high end?

Edit:

After a lengthy listening session I must admit, I am finding it hard to hate the E12. I can't say I am particularly fond of it, but I have a history or ranting about things I don't like. This is certainly not one of them. Why? I really don't know yet. I am still listening to my favorite tracks and thinking, hmmm. Not bad.

Edit:

Listening to Diana Krall's Devil May Care (Live in Paris) and the hi hats and ride cymbal really does sound off. Very little sparkle but the most annoying is the tin can sound. (Imagine 128kbps Mp3) Can anyone confirm this? Did I get a faulty unit? Does it get better with burn in?

Edit:

Ok, it's overly thick with my SM3, with the LCD2, this amp is impressive.

Edit:
After a few days, the metallic tin can sound is gone. maybe my brain adjusted. I have to admit, I am starting to like this amp paired with the LCD2 bass boost and crossfeed OFF, Gain set to 0. With a 5.5th Gen iPod Photo fed through a Fiio L9 lossless and >320kbps material. 
It adds warmth and extra body. Bass is very well controlled and textured. Separation is above average. Vocals sound great. Listening to Fly Me To The Moon by Ana Caram from Chesky's Acustic Jazz and I can definitely hear the reason people rate this amp highly.

I have read people describe this as congested with narrow soundstage, but I don't hear that at all. If anything, it adds a little bit of airiness and spaciousness to the music. Fiio did a great job with the E12.

Edit:

I am starting to like it with my SM3. 


Warning: The E12 can grow on you.


----------



## Angular Mo

Quote: 





bill-p said:


> My bad. That was poor choice of words. It was late at night, and I was dead tired, but still, no excuse!
> 
> I meant that sentence this way: this thread was made specifically for reviewing the E12. Since I no longer have access to an E12, any detailed "comparison" I can "claim" is dubious at best, so I don't feel like I should write anything more on the matter. If I'm going to write up anything like that, it'll be a separate review thread, and only when I have access to another E12. Maybe I'll buy the v2 E12 just to see if Fiio has improved on the soundstage.
> 
> ...


 
   
   
  pray tell please what is the mystery amp that is superior to the E12?
  IMO, an amp that has been compared to the E12 is on-topic.


----------



## Bill-P

I was alluding to the Leckerton Audio UHA-6S Mk.II w/ OPA627 opamp.

It's a very fine-sounding solid state amp. I'd rate it as being one of the best, even.


----------



## zazex

Quote: 





> Warning: The E12 can grow on you.


 
   
  It certainly can!
   
  I've just recently been enjoying it more than my JDS C5,
  though the exact reason why continues to elude me...


----------



## johnson98

hey I need some help!!!


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## johnson98

hey I need some help!!!


----------



## johnson98

hey I need some help!!!


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## waynes world

Quote: 





johnson98 said:


> hey I need some help!!!


 
   
  Apparently you need some "help x 3"! Let me guess... you are on a mobile device. Knew it!
   
  But what is it that you need so much help with?


----------



## johnson98

hey thanks! how'd you know haha I'm on android! I posted like 4 threads and I was wondering why no one is answering or helping. like at all


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## waynes world

It would help if you repeat your question.


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## johnson98

I repeated it like a billion times


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## waynes world

Well, I'm not going searching for it (I'm on a mobile device atm). Sorry. If it is pages back, it always makes sense to requote the question imo. At least that would improve the chances of getting it answered.


----------



## pngwn

johnson, you never posted in this thread before your triple post just now. i actually checked back til about page 6 before realizing i could just look at your post history. anyway, are you referring to your thread about a portable amp for the crossfade lp?


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## johnson98

pngwn, 
yes I am, but I got it now. sorry I'm new and I got literally no responses for 5-6 hours


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





johnson98 said:


> pngwn,
> yes I am, but I got it now. sorry I'm new and I got literally no responses for 5-6 hours


 
   
  So, you obviously posted in this thread by accident. Ok, I get it now. You had me very confused for a while!
   
  Thanks for sorting it out pngwn!


----------



## johnson98

yup haha. I'm on my phone too and that makes it pretty difficult. thanks anyway though.


----------



## waynes world

Quote: 





johnson98 said:


> yup haha. I'm on my phone too and that makes it pretty difficult. thanks anyway though.


 
   
  Btw, I threw in my 2cents worth in that thread.


----------



## johnson98

oh wow thanks dude


----------



## iguanajm

I ended up getting the O2 and paired it with the Beyer 880 250.  On battery power it seems that I am running close to max.  Anyone else see this as well?


----------



## zazex

Quote: 





iguanajm said:


> I ended up getting the O2 and paired it with the Beyer 880 250.  On battery power it seems that I am running close to max.  Anyone else see this as well?


 

 I don't get anywhere near max when running my DT880 250's from my O2.
  And sometimes, just sometimes, it's pretty loud :-D


----------



## HeatFan12

iguanajm said:


> I ended up getting the O2 and paired it with the Beyer 880 250.  On battery power it seems that I am running close to max.  Anyone else see this as well?




What is your source?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## iguanajm

Quote: 





heatfan12 said:


> What is your source?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
  iphone 5, double amp'd.  Or ipad mini also double amp'd.  
   
  at 12 o'clock (mid point), it sounds very nice and more than enough power - i'm not complaining.  I just figured it would get painfully loud at max and i was surprised that it did not.  Not that I want that, just an observation....
   
  i suppose my initial post was a bit of a dramatic exaggeration


----------



## HeatFan12

Was just wondering. I have that combo but use an iPod 5.5G with a line-out dock. Volume would be midway at most with good extension throughout.

Cheers!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fredrikhasth

audio source (samsung galaxy note2 ) and iems (yamaha eph-100) with C&C BH2  could it work or should i go for Fiio e11 ? they are almost the same price tag in european/uk ebay and amazon . only 10 gbp difference.


----------



## madmanmatt

curious if anyone would think the fiio e12 would be better suited with my m-duo's.. with there recessed mids.  its a toss up with this and a c&c bh.  looking for portable amp to get on the first.


----------



## lsamod

Deleted


----------



## Layman1

Hi, I had a Fiio E11 which broke a while back.
 After some reading around this site, I've ordered a Colorfly C3 and a C&C BH2.
 I bought a connector cable via eBay from Onest11 (contributor on here).
 And finally, am using Audeo Phonak PFE 122's (or whichever model at the same price point - £149 - has no remote control).
  
 So, I stumbled across this thread, at it seems that the Fiio E12 is much better than the C&C BH.
  
 However, firstly, all the other pics I've seen of the C&C BH2 show it as being black, but here is silver.
 So can I ask, was it the C&C BH2 that was reviewed? or an earlier version?
 (not even sure if there IS an earlier version; some reviews include the number "2" at the end; others don't!).
  
 Any thoughts on E12 vs C&C BH2? Particularly with regards to which would best match my C3 and IEM combo?
  
 I do like bass, although not to ridiculous excesses, and the ability to click a switch to get more (when I have mood) is a bonus for me!
 Obviously though, I hope the amp will give a good amount of bass naturally anyway, even without any booster switch engaged!
  
 I can't afford both amps, but I've no problem returning or selling the BH2 if convinced that the E12 is better for me.
 And based on what I've just read, it seems it is! But again, knowledgeable comments on the synergy of those amps with my set up would be appreciated!
  
 Many thanks!


----------



## dbdynsty25

layman1 said:


> However, firstly, all the other pics I've seen of the C&C BH2 show it as being black, but here is silver.
> So can I ask, was it the C&C BH2 that was reviewed? or an earlier version?
> (not even sure if there IS an earlier version; some reviews include the number "2" at the end; others don't!).


 
  
 The original BH is sealed whereas the BH2 has a replaceable battery.  That's allegedly the only difference.
  
 In regards to the amps and sound, with my M100s I actually prefer the BH2 over the e12 but you really can't go wrong with either.  The 30 dollar price difference sways the pendulum even further towards the BH2.


----------



## nway

*ignore*


----------



## nway

*ignore*
  
 (Is there any way to delete posts?)


----------



## lsamod

nway said:


> *ignore*
> 
> (Is there any way to delete posts?)


you have done it now! "Ignore" is good enough!


----------



## vermilions

Hi, I was wondering if any C&C BH owners could give some feedback as to whether or not the BH will drive headphones like the Beyerdynamic T51p (32ohms) and Shure se215 iems? Will there be any hissing due to impedance? Thanks.


----------



## utmelidze

Is there new version from.fiio e12?
I got mine in red package from asia
And tge first one came in white ,year ago


----------



## utmelidze




----------



## pngwn

Youll have better chance of getting an answer in this thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/620339/fiio-flagship-portable-amp-mont-blanc-e12-discussing-thread-the-pre-order-unit-arrives/2730#post_10341519


----------



## utmelidze

Thanks


----------



## njo2288

What a nice review. Thx a lot


----------



## Marco Angel

Anybody could guide me to buy or not this e12, is for pairing with an ibasso dx50 and with shure se535 and my favorite, Sony mdr-ex600
I'm in a internal debate sound wise


----------



## GloriousLettuce

Hi all. 

Simple questions:

I have E12.

I love all my headphones on it, including HD600.

I want to buy HD800.

Will I get a decent output to drive music to max volume? I listen to all genres, though I suspect classical music may lack. Will it be quiet?

Primary genres metal, edm, indie..


----------

