# Impressions from a HD 650 cable audition (and interesting info for HD 25 users)



## saint.panda

(Considering that I already have an old thread running on this I wasn't quite sure whether I should be opening a new one. Well, some people might be interested so whatever. Grammar and spelling will be bad because time is rather short.)

 This Saturday I had the great oppurtunity to listen to a variety of JaZZ's HD 650 replacement cables (Zu, Silver Dragon, Oehlbach, JaZZ's own magnet wire cable, stock cable and my own Headphile cable). Please note that this is all _impressions_ and as such to be taken with a grain of salt. It takes days or longer to fully evaluate a component's abilities.

 One thing before the impressions. JaZZ made me realize that the HD 25 uses the same connectors as the HD 650 meaning you can use about any HD 600/650 replacement cable for the HD 25, too! Although I own a HD 25 and a HD 650 I never actually thought of this. I believe this is great news for HD 25/650 users (and for those people like me who obviously haven't figured it out yet...). On the other hand, I realized that I could also use my HD 25 replacement cable from Headphile for the HD 650. doh.

 About the cables:

 Oehlbach: Very flexible, rubber coating and fairly good build quality. About the same diameter as the stock cable, maybe slightly thicker. The sound wasn't too far off the stock cable either: Smoother and more predominant midrange and above all more sparkle in the highs. In comparison, the stock cable's midrange sounds uninvolving. However, the most apparent differences were in the highs. Cymbals have acquired a lot more life.
 Nevertheless, the changes were there but I wouldn't call them dramatic.

 Silver Dragon: JaZZ let me take this cable home for one night (thanks!) so I've had plenty of oppurtunity to test this one. Build quality is top-notch although the Zu is even better. This cable changed the HD 650's sound in the most apparent way. Furthermore, the bass, mids, highs were all better than the stock cable. However, this cable was quite fatiguing to my ears. Frankly, I did not like it. The sound was too dry at times and there was an emphasis somewhere in the upper mids/lower highs which was not to my tastes. Finally, this cable did _not _ have more treble extension than either the Headphile or Zu cable (but not less either). No need to say that this cable won't hide anything from you. It will retrieve the tiniest of details. In some way, the SD is exciting to listen to.

 Headphile: I don't know how representative this cable is (especially regarding build quality) considering that it was built with the HD 25 and portability in mind. However, I think Larry just used a different (and more flexible) coating. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. Onto the sound: I like this cable more than the Silver Dragon. There is a lot of air in the highs, very good soundstage, the notes have enough attack, dynamics is good. Yet, this cable is not fatiguing to my ears. The overall balance is good. The headphile cable certainly sounds silver: transparent and detailed. Nonetheless, the Headphile cable's "treble magic" takes place beyond the 7-8KHz mark (unlike the SD) and as such does not lead to a high listening fatigue. Taking the other cable's prices into consideration, the SD and Zu cable in particular, I consider this cable a steal for 95$.

 JaZZ's magnet wire cable: This was my second favourite cable and also the one which sounded the most different from all the other cables. It has tubey characteristic, but in the highs (rather than the mids, weird...). There's barely any weight to the notes - very liquid highs if you want to put it that way. The overall presentation hence was quite relaxing. Female voices sound great out of this cable. Liquid as in contrary to grainy.

 Zu: Yep, this is it. Build quality was the best (better than the SD) and sound quality as well. This cable doesn't really change the HD 650's original (stock)sound but improves on it instead - in a most significant way. The first thing I noticed was the tigher bass. It's still not as tight as a Beyer 880 bass but it's getting closer. The highs have a lot of sparkle, classical music sounds great now. The stock cable has recessed highs in comparison. Again, this cable is not fatiguing at all. Overall dynamics is very good as well as microdynamics with the notes having a lot of punch. I did notice a funny thing in the midrange. I had the feeling that the midrange got a bit warmer and more predominant, the instruments appeared bigger than on the other cables and soundstage seemed to be a little bit smaller. Maybe somebody can explain this phenomena to me. Detailing was excellent. This cable just sounded right. Less transparent and revealing than the SD but some people describe the Zu cable as "natural" and I don't see any reason for disagreement.

 In any case, by saying the Zu is best cable means it's the best cable for me. I can understand how the SD is the best for others. From a technical point of view, the SD does wonders to the HD 650 if those wonders are wished for. The biggest surprise was Jazz's own cable, which might not be suited for all kinds of music but great as an alternative cable. And its "soft" sound signature complemented the HD25's edgy nature in a great way. The winner out of this cable audition has to be Larry's cable. If you don't want to spend $200+ on a _headphone cable_ I suggest you don't look any further than the Headphile cable. It's already crazy to spend almost $100 on a _headphone _ _cable_. However, I'm crazy and I will spend, probably double the price, for the Zu. Is it a 5% improvement? [edit, jan 05] Depends on what you call 5% but it gives the headphones their final edge when the amp and source are already set. [/edit] For a slight improvement (especially in the highs) the Oehlbach is a cost-effective alternative.

 Just my 2 Eurocents...excuse me, just my 2 Rappen


----------



## dshea_32665

Thanks for the review saint.panda. I am mentally gearing up for the purchase of the HD650 and I know I will be doing the cable as well. Your observations and the ability to test so many cable was very useful. That and Jazz's input, which I had seen previously, really have helped me to narrow my choice. I am a classical music listener and every time I change something for more highs/detail I get similar fatigue that you described. Your descriptions of the Zu and Headphile cables confirmed where I was leaning. Thanks.

 dshea


----------



## JaZZ

_Tao..._

 ...really great, descriptive, well-worded review! More or less I share all your findings. Thanks for your effort!


----------



## Xanadu777

Quote:


 JaZZ made me realize that the HD 25 uses the same connectors as the HD 650 meaning you can use about any HD 600/650 replacement cable for the HD 25, too! 
 

Can some others that have both verify this too? Reason I ask is that besides the fact the connectors look so different, I could swear I've read that others had tried this and they weren't interchangeable. I remember it seemed the thickness of the body of the plugs was the main problem. Since the HD25 connectors have those flat excrusions, is it possible to damage a 6xx series springs or the nubs on the 6xx series to damage something in the HD25? Just want to be sure...

 Nice comparision saint.panda!


----------



## ipodstudio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *saint.panda* 
_(Considering that I already have an old thread running on this I wasn't quite sure whether I should be opening a new one. Well, some people might be interested so whatever. Grammar and spelling will be bad because time is rather short.)

 This Saturday I had the great oppurtunity to listen to a variety of JaZZ's HD 650 replacement cables (Zu, Silver Dragon, Oehlbach, JaZZ's own magnet wire cable, stock cable and my own Headphile cable). Please note that this is all impressions and as such to be taken with a grain of salt. It takes days or longer to fully evaluate a component's abilities.

 One thing before the impressions. JaZZ made me realize that the HD 25 uses the same connectors as the HD 650 meaning you can use about any HD 600/650 replacement cable for the HD 25, too! Although I own a HD 25 and a HD 650 I never actually thought of this. I believe this is great news for HD 25/650 users (and for those people like me who obviously haven't figured it out yet...). On the other hand, I realized that I could also use my HD 25 replacement cable from Headphile for the HD 650. doh.

 About the cables:

 Oehlbach: Very flexible, rubber coating and fairly good build quality. About the same diameter as the stock cable, maybe slightly thicker. The sound wasn't too far off the stock cable either: Smoother and more predominant midrange and above all more sparkle in the highs. In comparison, the stock cable's midrange sounds uninvolving. However, the most apparent differences were in the highs. Cymbals have acquired a lot more life.
 Nevertheless, the changes were there but I wouldn't call them dramatic.

 Silver Dragon: JaZZ let me take this cable home for one night (thanks!) so I've had plenty of oppurtunity to test this one. Build quality is top-notch although the Zu is even better. This cable changed the HD 650's sound in the most apparent way. Furthermore, the bass, mids, highs were all better than the stock cable. However, this cable was quite fatiguing to my ears. Frankly, I did not like it. The sound was too dry at times and there was an emphasis somewhere in the upper mids/lower highs which was not to my tastes. Finally, this cable did not  have more treble extension than either the Headphile or Zu cable (but not less either). No need to say that this cable won't hide anything from you. It will retrieve the tiniest of details. In some way, the SD is exciting to listen to.

 Headphile: I don't know how representative this cable is (especially regarding build quality) considering that it was built with the HD 25 and portability in mind. However, I think Larry just used a different (and more flexible) coating. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. Onto the sound: I like this cable more than the Silver Dragon. There is a lot of air in the highs, very good soundstage, the notes have enough attack, dynamics is good. Yet, this cable is not fatiguing to my ears. The overall balance is good. The headphile cable certainly sounds silver: transparent and detailed. Nonetheless, the Headphile cable's "treble magic" takes place beyond the 7-8KHz mark (unlike the SD) and as such does not lead to a high listening fatigue. Taking the other cable's prices into consideration, the SD and Zu cable in particular, I consider this cable a steal for 95$.

 JaZZ's magnet wire cable: This was my second favourite cable and also the one which sounded the most different from all the other cables. It has tubey characteristic, but in the highs (rather than the mids, weird...). There's barely any weight to the notes - very liquid highs if you want to put it that way. The overall presentation hence was quite relaxing. Female voices sound great out of this cable. Liquid as in contrary to grainy.

 Zu: Yep, this is it. Build quality was the best (better than the SD) and sound quality as well. This cable doesn't really change the HD 650's original (stock)sound but improves on it instead - in a most significant way. The first thing I noticed was the tigher bass. It's still not as tight as a Beyer 880 bass but it's getting closer. The highs have a lot of sparkle, classical music sounds great now. The stock cable has recessed highs in comparison. Again, this cable is not fatiguing at all. Overall dynamics is very good as well as microdynamics with the notes having a lot of punch. I did notice a funny thing in the midrange. I had the feeling that the midrange got a bit warmer and more predominant, the instruments appeared bigger than on the other cables and soundstage seemed to be a little bit smaller. Maybe somebody can explain this phenomena to me. Detailing was excellent. This cable just sounded right. Less transparent and revealing than the SD but some people describe the Zu cable as "natural" and I don't see any reason for disagreement.

 In any case, by saying the Zu is best cable means it's the best cable for me. I can understand how the SD is the best for others. From a technical point of view, the SD does wonders to the HD 650 if those wonders are wished for. The biggest surprise was Jazz's own cable, which might not be suited for all kinds of music but great as an alternative cable. And its "soft" sound signature complemented the HD25's edgy nature in a great way. The winner out of this cable audition has to be Larry's cable. If you don't want to spend $200+ on a headphone cable I suggest you don't look any further than the Headphile cable. It's already crazy to spend almost $100 on a headphone  cable. However, I'm crazy and I will spend, probably double the price, for the Zu. Is it a 5% improvement? Depends on what you call 5% but amp differences are not that much bigger in my opinion and interconnects differences are marginal in comparison. For a slight improvement (especially in the highs) the Oehlbach is a cost-effective alternative.

 Just my 2 Eurocents...excuse me, just my 2 Rappen_

 

Nice review, saint.panda. Have you ever listened to the HD 650s with a Cardas cable? I tried the Zu but went back to the Cardas as the Zu was just too much on my system and to my taste.


----------



## NeilPeart

Great review, saint.panda! The advice regarding the HD25-1 is true - I just verified it tonight! My Oehlbach cable is now feeding my HD25-1! I always wondered about the compatibility between the HD580/600/650 and HD25-1 but I was too scared to try it - I was very close to buying Headphile's cable until Xanadu777 himself (Larry of Headphile) pointed me to this thread (he sacrificed a possible sale to help - what a guy). JaZZ is indeed correct! The Oehlbach really improves the sound of the HD25; the soundstage has increased, the bass is better and the treble is much smoother. Now my HD650 sits sans cable awaiting the balanced Zu Mobius. I'm listening to Bjork and Coltrane right now and the bass is simply amazing - I've heard "Human Behavior" many times with the HD25 but it never sounded like this. Thank you JaZZ and saint.panda for this revelation and thank you Xanadu777 for pointing out this thread to me. Perhaps I'll also try the HD25 with my balanced Zu Mobius... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: Is the HD25 the only sealed headphone with upgrade-cable capabilities?


----------



## Xanadu777

Thanks for the additional info NP, death to the stock stranded steel cable! Sounds like a winner for owners of the HD25


----------



## tiberian

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilPeart* 
_Great review, saint.panda! The advice regarding the HD25-1 is true - I just verified it tonight! My Oehlbach cable is now feeding my HD25-1! I always wondered about the compatibility between the HD580/600/650 and HD25-1 but I was too scared to try it - I was very close to buying Headphile's cable until Xanadu777 himself (Larry of Headphile) pointed me to this thread (he sacrificed a possible sale to help - what a guy). JaZZ is indeed correct! The Oehlbach really improves the sound of the HD25; the soundstage has increased, the bass is better and the treble is much smoother. Now my HD650 sits sans cable awaiting the balanced Zu Mobius. I'm listening to Bjork and Coltrane right now and the bass is simply amazing - I've heard "Human Behavior" many times with the HD25 but it never sounded like this. Thank you JaZZ and saint.panda for this revelation and thank you Xanadu777 for pointing out this thread to me. Perhaps I'll also try the HD25 with my balanced Zu Mobius... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 EDIT: Is the HD25 the only sealed headphone with upgrade-cable capabilities?_

 

akg k271s can be upgraded too.


----------



## NeilPeart

Oh yeah! I even owned one and heard one with a Zu Mobius at one of the meets!


----------



## boodi

I tried Zu, Cardas, Headphile(from Larry), SD and Stock.
 Saying stock becuase at the moment I am using the stock and I like the sound the stock gives.


----------



## saint.panda

Jazz, thanks again for this chance to test all these nice cables (and some other insteresting stuff such as the Beyerdynamic "Fridge" DT 860....)

 Actually, it's less intended as a review as I was hoping for some discussion on these cables as well. Anybody else tried the Headphile cable against the Zu or SD? How come the instruments on the Zu appear to be bigger or was it just my imagination?

 About the HD 25 using HD 650 cables: I was hesitant as well but Jazz just looked at the connectors and said "Sure, they'll fit" and they did.

 I've been listening to the HD 25 with the stock cable and actually like it almost more than the Headphile cable because the HD 25 already has preponderant highs to begin with. Not an emphasised level but a overall balance tilted towards the highs (and bass). The stock cable's smooth character complements this quite well. However, the Headphile cable is much better for the HD 650.

 Larry, about the HD 25 you made for me: do you use the same conducting and soldering material for the HD 6xx replacement cable?

 I think the Oehlbach would make the perfect cable for the HD 25 because it's not too expensive in regard to the HD 25's price, it's flexible and the Oehlbach has a sound which does the HD 25 very good. However, the Oehlbach does not have a 3.5mm plug, which the Headphile or Zu cable can be made to have.

 I wonder if I should ask Cardas to make me Neutral Reference cable for the HD 25.


----------



## ipodstudio

saint.panda, have you ever tried the Cardas cable?


----------



## saint.panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ipodstudio* 
_saint.panda, have you ever tried the Cardas cable?_

 

Unfortunately I have not.

 I'm sorry I didn't see your original question from above


----------



## NeilPeart

Yes, the Oehlbach really suits the HD25 - thank you for instilling in me the initiative to try it! The mini-plug issue is one of my concerns, as I do use the HD25 for those rare portable occasions where the PX100 won't cut it (roadtrips where the PX100's lack of isolation is an impediment to listening). Perhaps I’ll modify the Oehlbach with an angled mini-plug to resolve this issue.

  Quote:


 I wonder if I should ask Cardas to make me Neutral Reference cable for the HD 25. 
 

Are you aware that the Cardas headphone cable isn't a Neutral Reference cable; that cable is more expensive and only one member (Mastergill) has commissioned the construction of the Neutral Reference for headphone purposes? The Cardas headphone cable is its own line of cable, separate from the Cardas interconnect line.


----------



## gundam91

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ipodstudio* 
_saint.panda, have you ever tried the Cardas cable?_

 

I have both the Cardas v2 and the Zu Mobius cables. The Zu cable sounds bright in my system with the HD600. With these sets of NOS tubes, the cardas has a very natural sound that just draws me to my headphones night after night.....Not sure how to describe it, it just sounds right. The first time I heard it, my jaw just dropped to the floor.

 mxs1030 is sending me his Silver Dragon for comparison. It should arrive tomorrow.


----------



## ipodstudio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *gundam91* 
_I have both the Cardas v2 and the Zu Mobius cables. The Zu cable sounds bright in my system with the HD600. With these sets of NOS tubes, the cardas has a very natural sound that just draws me to my headphones night after night.....Not sure how to describe it, it just sounds right. The first time I heard it, my jaw just dropped to the floor.

 mxs1030 is sending me his Silver Dragon for comparison. It should arrive tomorrow._

 

Cool! I'll be real interested to hear your thoughts there. I've been wanting to try the SD cable, too.


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ipodstudio* 
_Cool! I'll be real interested to hear your thoughts there. I've been wanting to try the SD cable, too._

 

Please note that gundam91 is referring to his HD 600, not the HD 650. The cables we're talking about have different synergetic effects with those two headphones.


----------



## saint.panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilPeart* 
_Are you aware that the Cardas headphone cable isn't a Neutral Reference cable; that cable is more expensive and only one member (Mastergill) has commissioned the construction of the Neutral Reference for headphone purposes? The Cardas headphone cable is its own line of cable, separate from the Cardas interconnect line._

 






 That's the cable I was referring to - a 500$ cable for a 150$ headphone....

 What do you think about AKG 271 with Zu vs. HD 25 with (let's say) Oehlbach or Zu as well?


----------



## NeilPeart

I think the weight of such a heavy cable (Cardas Neutral Reference) might be detrimental to the ergonomics of the HD25 (it’s already a bit heavy with the Oehlbach, which is the lightest and most flexible aftermarket Senn cable); I will compare my balanced Zu Mobius and Oehlbach cable with the HD25 to determine how well that headphone scales with aftermarket cables (and post my findings regarding single-ended and balanced output operation). I still find the K271/Zu Mobius to be the best sealed headphone for my tastes, but it's not portable in the slightest. The Beyer DT250-250 is probably also better than the stock HD25-1, but maybe not the HD25+Oehlbach (I haven’t heard the Beyer in a long time so I can’t form a firm judgment at this time). For portable applications the HD25-1 is still the closed ‘phone to beat, and the Oehlbach cable strikes the perfect equilibrium between usability and performance.


----------



## Taurui

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *saint.panda* 
_the Beyerdynamic "Fridge" DT 860....)_

 

Care to elaborate on this?


----------



## saint.panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilPeart* 
_I think the weight of such a heavy cable (Cardas Neutral Reference) might be detrimental to the ergonomics of the HD25 (it’s already a bit heavy with the Oehlbach, which is the lightest and most flexible aftermarket Senn cable); I will compare my balanced Zu Mobius and Oehlbach cable with the HD25 to determine how well that headphone scales with aftermarket cables (and post my findings regarding single-ended and balanced output operation). I still find the K271/Zu Mobius to be the best sealed headphone for my tastes, but it's not portable in the slightest. The Beyer DT250-250 is probably also better than the stock HD25-1, but maybe not the HD25+Oehlbach (I haven’t heard the Beyer in a long time so I can’t form a firm judgment at this time). For portable applications the HD25-1 is still the closed ‘phone to beat, and the Oehlbach cable strikes the perfect equilibrium between usability and performance. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Just joking about the NR cable.
 I agree that the 271 sounds great for a closed headphone, fantastic midrange. I didn't quite like the Beyer 250 but only because the ear cups were kind of small. Didn't listen long enough to it though so no idea about the sound.
 I'd be highly interested in the Oehlbach/Zu shootout since I didn't spend a lot of time with the Zu/HD 25 combo. I'm considering getting a pair of Oehlbachs for my HD 25 because it's thinner, more flexible, has a lower profile, etc. than the Zu. I will definately get a Zu for the HD 650 nevertheless.
 And yes, I also think the HD 25 is still the one to beat when it comes to portability and sound. I heard Jazz's Etys but wasn't too impressed, maybe I didn't get a good enough seal.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Taurui* 
_Care to elaborate on this? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Maybe this particular pair was broken so I'll give it the benefit of doubt. In any case, there was a pair of headphones lying around and I asked Jazz how it sounds. He told me to try it out myself. After this most interesting experience I tried to put in words what I heard and Jazz just said: "Sounds like a fridge, doesn't it?". That pretty much sums it up. Thin bass, emphasised lower highs, made my ears bleed on one particular song etc. This is porbably the most fatiguing headphone I've ever heard. Out of the Bel Canto and HA2-MKII, this headphone sounded plain horrible to my ears. No comparison to the DT 880 in my opinion.


----------



## Sean H

I think we've got another Nick Dangerous syndrome on our hands.


----------



## Taurui

saint.panda ... tried the 120 Ohm jack for the DT860 too?


----------



## saint.panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Taurui* 
_saint.panda ... tried the 120 Ohm jack for the DT860 too? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No, unfortunately not. Maybe I should have but I don't think a sole 120 Ohm impedance would have yielded such a dramatic improvement over these headphones.


----------



## NeilPeart

Quote:


 I think we've got another Nick Dangerous syndrome on our hands. 
 

? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ?

 Perhaps I'm too young a member to understand that one!


----------



## ipodstudio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilPeart* 
_? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ?

 Perhaps I'm too young a member to understand that one!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Could SeanH be referring to this member? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/member.php?u=1008


----------



## NeilPeart

I remember his knowledgeable and informative posts, and now, after seeing his avatar I admit there is a resemblance...


----------



## ipodstudio

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilPeart* 
_I remember his knowledgeable and informative posts, and now, after seeing his avatar I admit there is a resemblance... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL! It's just a guess. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Otherwise, I'm fumbling in the dark, too..


----------



## bangraman

Thanks for the tip, I never thought about swapping the cables. It's always good to have more information. 


 However since my use for the HD25 is totally portable, and the Cardas/Zu cables I have REALLY gets on my t**s (in a physically impractical way compared to the stock cable) even when using with the basically stationary HD650, it's a road I won't be taking. Like boodi, most of the time the HD650 stays stock and the Zu only goes on when I'm making notes on my continuous evaluations over the amps. The Oehlbach looks more promising though.


----------



## Taurui

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *saint.panda* 
_No, unfortunately not. Maybe I should have but I don't think a sole 120 Ohm impedance would have yielded such a dramatic improvement over these headphones._

 

Well, noir and me were really impressed with the DT860 out of the 120 Ohm jack at the meier meet so you really should've tried that...


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Taurui* 
_Well, noir and me were really impressed with the DT860 out of the 120 Ohm jack at the Meier meet so you really should've tried that... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

I've tried it from the HA-2's 120-ohm jack. It made the sound warmer and fuller, but at the expense of a recessed midrange. Just a marginal improvement to my ears and not one towards higher neutrality overall. It sounded best with the EMP -- which has a somewhat elevated output impedance as well. I must say I was as shocked as _saint.panda_ when I first heard it. A really cold sound with awfully exaggerated lower treble. Heavy break in didn't really help so far, although it's not more than 30 hours. Equalizing showed its actual potential: resolution is really good, and without the lower-treble emphasis the sound would be quite smooth and transparent, with good and deep bass. 

 As to «lying around»: it was the original box that was lying around, with the DT 860 in it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And it's definitely not broken. How else would both channels sound the same!


----------



## saint.panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* 
_As to «lying around»: it was the original box that was lying around, with the DT 860 in it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And it's definitely not broken. How else would both channels sound the same!




_

 

Sorry for having put it in a rather casual way. I was just really surprised by these headphones' sound considering the relatively good feedback they have received.


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *saint.panda* 
_What do you think about AKG 271 with Zu vs. HD 25 with (let's say) Oehlbach or Zu as well?_

 

I have not heard the HD 25 with the Oehlbach, but I don't think the performance increase would be enough. The K271 beats out the HD25 in nearly all respects IMO. This was when comparing the K271+Zu with the HD25[stock], so I am not completely sure... but I can make an educated guess. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilPeart* 
_I still find the K271/Zu Mobius to be the best sealed headphone for my tastes, but it's not portable in the slightest._

 

LOL, speak for yourself. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Edit: Obviously I agree with the first part of your sentence though NeilPeart


----------



## saint.panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_I have not heard the HD 25 with the Oehlbach, but I don't think the performance increase would be enough. The K271 beats out the HD25 in nearly all respects IMO. This was when comparing the K271+Zu with the HD25[stock], so I am not completely sure... but I can make an educated guess. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well, a headphone with Zu cable versus one with a braided steel cable is not really a fair comparison. No change of headphone cable has yiedded such a big difference as in the case of the HD 25. 
 However, it is true that the stock 271 has better overall sound over the stock HD 25, the rest is speculation and I'm curious about Neil's findings on this. (Nevertheless,I do believe that the AKG 271 will still do a lot of things better than the HD 25 such as midrange, soundstage, smoother presentation, etc.) 
 Even so, I like the HD 25's hefty bass for on the go. Hefty as compared to the 271's bass.


----------



## philodox

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *saint.panda* 
_Well, a headphone with Zu cable versus one with a braided steel cable is not really a fair comparison. No change of headphone cable has yiedded such a big difference as in the case of the HD 25. 
 However, it is true that the stock 271 has better overall sound over the stock HD 25, the rest is speculation and I'm curious about Neil's findings on this. (Nevertheless,I do believe that the AKG 271 will still do a lot of things better than the HD 25 such as midrange, soundstage, smoother presentation, etc.) 
 Even so, I like the HD 25's hefty bass for on the go. Hefty as compared to the 271's bass._

 

Yeah, that is basically what I meant. Its been a while since I've run my K271 stock, but I'm pretty sure that it was still quite a bit better than the HD25 when using the stock cable. The recabling does send the K271 into a completely new class though and I agree that comparison's between it and a stock HD25 are not very useful.

 What I'd really like to hear is what a Zu Mobius can do for a HD600 as I heard a HD600 [with an Oehlbach I believe] and found it to be fairly similar to my K271's with the Zu Mobius.

 I also enjoyed the HD25 bass and found it preferable to the A900 in that department. There is still something that I like more about the K271 in that area that I have a hard time putting my finger on. Might be bass extension... but its more the _quality _ of the bass if that makes any sense. The K271 could probably use a little more _quantity _ though.


----------



## boodi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bangraman* 
_ The Oehlbach looks more promising though._

 

what i think 
 in fact I'm going to try it too to see if it can take the place of the stock , which i seem to return to period 
 I've been using other aft. cables I own for critical listening too up to now.


----------



## NeilPeart




----------



## boodi

beautiful pic neil
 thanks for sharing


----------



## insomniac

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *saint.panda* 
_Headphile: I don't know how representative this cable is (especially regarding build quality) considering that it was built with the HD 25 and portability in mind. However, I think Larry just used a different (and more flexible) coating. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. Onto the sound: I like this cable more than the Silver Dragon. There is a lot of air in the highs, very good soundstage, the notes have enough attack, dynamics is good. Yet, this cable is not fatiguing to my ears. The overall balance is good. The headphile cable certainly sounds silver: transparent and detailed. Nonetheless, the Headphile cable's "treble magic" takes place beyond the 7-8KHz mark (unlike the SD) and as such does not lead to a high listening fatigue. Taking the other cable's prices into consideration, the SD and Zu cable in particular, I consider this cable a steal for 95$._

 

I recently received the Headphile Senn cable and these mirror my observations EXACTLY! Very airy with great soundstage. Dynamic with attack but not fatiguing. The only disappointment was that it didn't improve the bass as much as I had hoped. Doesn't feel weighty enough yet. Of course I will reserve final judgment until they are fully burned in.


----------



## NeilPeart

I now use the HD25-1 with the stock HD650 cable. This is because the Oehlbach was too heavy and the connectors were too large so it would fall out of the HD25 too easily. The difference between the Oehlbach and HD650 cable on the HD25-1 is very minor; the biggest difference is throwing away the stock (steel!!) cable of the HD25 and moving to oxygen-free copper like the stock HD650 cable. The difference between the HD650 stock and Oehlbach cable on the HD25-1 is maybe 1%, and that is just in the soundstage improvements, which are subtle at best. However, the difference between the stock steel cable of the HD25 and the HD650 cable is easily night and day - and they don't fall out like the Oehlbach did. Also, the Oehlbach is a much more noticeable upgrade on the HD580 - the difference between the stock HD650 cable and Oehlbach is also night and day, and the Oehlbach doesn't fall out of the HD580 at all. The Zu Mobius is still unmatched, especially in the smoothness of the treble and the details it demonstrates - the difference between the Oehlbach and Zu Mobius is greater than the difference between the stock HD650 cable and the Oehlbach (and the Zu Mobius will NEVER fall out, even if you want it to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). I now use the XLR output of the DAC1 to drive the HD650/Zu Mobius, and the two headphone outputs of the DAC1 to drive the HD580/Oehlbach and the HD25-1/HD650 cable.


----------



## gundam91

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *philodox* 
_What I'd really like to hear is what a Zu Mobius can do for a HD600_

 

Philodox, your wish is my command. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 All kidding aside. I have just finished comparing the Zu Mobius, Cardas MkII, and Silver Dragon with my HD600. The Silver Dragon was on loan from another member, MXS1030. I just shipped the cable with Zu Mobius back to him this afternoon so he can compare them himself.

 I have drated up my impressions, but will hold off until the MXS1030 had a chance to form his own untinted opinions.


----------



## philodox

but I want to hear it myself!


----------



## Jap

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *insomniac* 
_I recently received the Headphile Senn cable and these mirror my observations EXACTLY! Very airy with great soundstage. Dynamic with attack but not fatiguing. The only disappointment was that it didn't improve the bass as much as I had hoped. Doesn't feel weighty enough yet. Of course I will reserve final judgment until they are fully burned in._

 

[size=medium]I too just received an enhancement cable from Larry (Headphile) and have them burning in as I type. While conventional wisdom dictates that you don't upgrade cables on relatively inexpensive phones, the HD25-1 is an exception. Where else is one to find a portable phone with that kind of great knock-about construction?---not that I intend to knock them about, mind you! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Even though I have just initiated the burn in process, the improvement over stock HD25-1 steel braided cable is already profound. I am literally hearing details I never heard before---and there is no real fatigue. Of course, the velour pads help with the low fatigue factor. (I thought that the treble and mids were suppose to dominate early in the burn in process, and the bass is supposed to settle in later on. I hope the bass doesn't become _too_ dominant after 100 or more hours of burn in!)

 I want to burn them in for a full 200 hours, but I know I won't be able to resist doing a lot of listening in the meantime. I have less than 24 hours of burn in time. My new Sony D-EJ2000 PCDP will be arriving next week. Now I need a new DAC/amp. Is AOS really gonna make me wait for his new offerings later this year? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 [/size]


----------



## Feanor

Does anybody have experience with the headphile cable and the hd 600? Most people seem to have it with the 650...


----------



## JaZZ

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Feanor* 
_Does anybody have experience with the headphile cable and the hd 600? Most people seem to have it with the 650..._

 

I have tried _saint.panda_'s Headphile cable on the HD 600. It wasn't an ideal match to my ears, and I liked e.g. the Oehlbach better. The treble was somehow unintegrated to the rest and made it sound slightly artificial. I liked the Headphile with the HD 650, although it didn't reach the Zu Mobius' excellence. One thing I couldn't stand though was the compromized wearing comfort. The connectors are so long that they stick into neck and shoulders. Unnacceptable for me.


----------



## saint.panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilPeart* 
_I now use the HD25-1 with the stock HD650 cable. This is because the Oehlbach was too heavy and the connectors were too large so it would fall out of the HD25 too easily. The difference between the Oehlbach and HD650 cable on the HD25-1 is very minor; the biggest difference is throwing away the stock (steel!!) cable of the HD25 and moving to oxygen-free copper like the stock HD650 cable. The difference between the HD650 stock and Oehlbach cable on the HD25-1 is maybe 1%, and that is just in the soundstage improvements, which are subtle at best. However, the difference between the stock steel cable of the HD25 and the HD650 cable is easily night and day - and they don't fall out like the Oehlbach did. Also, the Oehlbach is a much more noticeable upgrade on the HD580 - the difference between the stock HD650 cable and Oehlbach is also night and day, and the Oehlbach doesn't fall out of the HD580 at all. The Zu Mobius is still unmatched, especially in the smoothness of the treble and the details it demonstrates - the difference between the Oehlbach and Zu Mobius is greater than the difference between the stock HD650 cable and the Oehlbach (and the Zu Mobius will NEVER fall out, even if you want it to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). I now use the XLR output of the DAC1 to drive the HD650/Zu Mobius, and the two headphone outputs of the DAC1 to drive the HD580/Oehlbach and the HD25-1/HD650 cable._

 

Thanks for the update.
 I'm also finding myself going for the HD 650 stock cable with the HD 25 most of the time (due to the stock cable's flexibilty) while the Headphile cable is staying on the HD 650 until I can get my hands on a Zu. I also received the HD 25-13 stock cable by mail a few days ago (unfortunately at my house in Germany). Actually I wanted to get the real stock (steel) cable in order to finish my revised review but Sennheiser sent me the OFC HD 25-13 cable instead (so I just loaned another HD 25 from a friend of mine). I'll be fetching up this cable in a week or so and will try do some comparisons between this cable and the HD 650 stock.


----------



## NeilPeart

There's an OFC HD25 cable!


----------



## tiberian

i have just got the headphile senn cable...it does sound silver but doesn't have any harshness so far, the sound is quite airy.

 early comparison: headphile cable has excellent treble - agressive, great resolution and very transparent, it handily beats the mobius in that department. still the zu mobius has much better midrange and bass...the headphile cable is too lean and doesn't have the resolution of the zu in the mid and bass.

 anyway...for the price, larry's cable is excellent, as always.


----------



## Xanadu777

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *JaZZ* 
_ One thing I couldn't stand though was the compromized wearing comfort. The connectors are so long that they stick into neck and shoulders. Unnacceptable for me._

 

You're right, thus I've redesigned to cure this, Senn V2 soon... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 -Larry


----------



## cannedheat

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *NeilPeart* 
_There's an OFC HD25 cable! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I have found references to part #74532 Sennheiser HD 25/HD 25-13 Replacement Cable (OFC), but cannot find this part number on Sennheiser's USA website. Some U.K. dealers stock this part, but I have not found anyone yet who ships to U.S.


----------



## stet

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *cannedheat* 
_I have found references to part #74532 Sennheiser HD 25/HD 25-13 Replacement Cable (OFC), but cannot find this part number on Sennheiser's USA website. Some U.K. dealers stock this part, but I have not found anyone yet who ships to U.S._

 

That part number may not be right. I was about to inquire about ordering at this one site, then I checked out their Senn product sheet, which lists part #74532 as steel.


----------



## saint.panda

Just got home and took a quick look at the ofc cable. The connectors look better to me than the steel cable's connectors. The headphone plug is 6.3mm and the cable is really long, 3m should be about right. Haven't done any sound comparisons yet because I don't have any headphone with me right now.


----------



## Daroid

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stet* 
_That part number may not be right. I was about to inquire about ordering at this one site, then I checked out their Senn product sheet, which lists part #74532 as steel._

 

That is the first site claiming that. Here's another that says it is OFC: http://www.soundshopping.co.uk/acata...ne_Cables.html




 Most sites have no information about the conductor material

 Looking forward to hear your impressions, Saint.panda


----------



## nierika

Just ordered the 3m OFC cable from www.canford.co.uk!


----------



## rnd

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nierika* 
_Just ordered the 3m OFC cable from www.canford.co.uk!_

 

I'm assuming you ordered the "54-171 SENNHEISER 74532 Spare cable". There seems to be some confusion about which part number is the OFC cable. I see their Senn fact sheet also says it's steel. When you get it, I'd love to hear if it is in fact the OFC cable and I'd love to hear your impressions.


----------



## nierika

I hope its OFC, but if it's not, thats OK. I needed a longer cable anyway.


----------



## Daroid

Ok I'm seiously in doubt here:

http://djservice.com/shop/openstore.htm , click Ersatzteile/Spare parts in the menu, click Sennheiser, and then HD 25 Headphones. The cable they sell for 27 euros is the original HD25-13 cable. I asked what the conductor material was - and it was steel! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (That is what he claims anyway)
 What should I think ? The HD25-13 DOES NOT come with a steel cable as default.... (according to the HD-25 manual)


----------



## Daroid

Update, the cable he claims is the steel cable and original for HD25-13 is the 74532 cable.
 Sennheiser Germany has deleted all the strange HD25 cable variants from their shop, so what they have now is:

 40180: You do NOT want this: That is the stock 1.5m steel cable which comes with HD25-1.
 12836: Steel cable, HD25SP original, don't use! - you can use this, but the cord for the left side is the same length as to the right side; you need to turn the earcups 180 degrees.
 74532: Original HD25-13 cable, in the manual for the HD25 it says it is copper/OFC, some sites claim that it's OFC other people say it is steel.

 I will buy this 27 euro cable and report back when I receive it (Shipping is 15 euros to Denmark 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## saint.panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Daroid* 
_40180: You do NOT want this: That is the stock 1.5m steel cable which comes with HD25-1.
 74532: Original HD25-13 cable, in the manual for the HD25 it says it is copper/OFC, some sites claim that it's OFC other people say it is steel._

 

Originally, I did want the steel cable but I didn't know they have that as a replacement cable, too.

 I did some comparisons between the HD 650 stock cable and the HD 25-13 cable, which are both OFC. My Headphile cable is somewhere over the Atlantic for upgrading reasons so I can only compare the two OFC cables. 
 Both cables are 3m in lenght (at least I think the HD 650 cable is 3m) and both are terminated with a 6.3mm plug although the plug on the hd 650 cable is gold-platted. 

 Soundwise, the differences were marginal and sometimes I wasn't even sure whether I heard one. One problem is that swapping headphone cables takes some seconds and audio memory is not necessarily the best judge for evaluating equipment. It would have been great to have two HD 25 with each attached to a different cable.

 Anyway, I felt that the HD 650 stock cable did a bit better in the midrange and highs. The midrange had slightly better resolution (voices sounded more real with more texture) whereas the highs had more a bit more of sparkle. I compared the cables for about half an hour using various tracks. At one time I felt that the hd 25-13 cable had less bass but by going back to the hd 650 cable, it was the same amount of bass. I'm not sure whether I'd hear these differences on a portable setup, which the HD 25-1 is intented for.

 After all, I'm still undecided which cable to go for and I'm even leaning towards the old steel cable because of its short length and 3.5mm headphone plug. If the Oehlbach cable could be had with a 3.5mm plug, that'd be key. The Headphile cable is also nice although I felt that Larry's silver cable was a bit too resolving for the HD 25 (especially in the highs and upper mids). And buying a 100$ cable for a 150$ headphone is somehow out of proportion although a nice investment if you can justify it. Hence, I sent my silver cable to Larry to for upgrading it to V2 and adding a 6.3mm plug for using it with the Hd 650.

 In any case, I plan to sell the HD 25 because I find myself using headphone in general only very little recently.


----------



## Daroid

Sounds like the HD25-13/74532 cable is a good compromise if the headphone must be singleside-corded (more convenient IMO). 
 Is sibilance still as apparent with any of the OFC cables you tried ?


----------



## saint.panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Daroid* 
_Sounds like the HD25-13/74532 cable is a good compromise if the headphone must be singleside-corded (more convenient IMO). 
 Is sibilance still as apparent with any of the OFC cables you tried ?_

 

I think both cables are fairly smooth and will reduce some of the sibilance. With the Headphile cable there was more sibiliance simply because I believe that sibiliance is an idiosyncratic aspect of the HD 25 and the silver cable just brought it out. However, I am a bit oversensitive in that regard and other people might not see it the same way. For me, the Ofc cables are a bit smoother in the upper mids / lower highs.

 You're right about the HD 25-13 cable being singleside-corded which really is a plus and the reason why I would choose it over the HD 650 stock cable. However, the 6.3mm plug is really annonying because I would need to use an 6.3 to 3.5mm adapter.


----------



## Daroid

Ok, I look forward to recieve the new OFC cable, there really is something about the low treble/mid treble that is irritating, hard to point at what it is, but it's sibilance and "undetailedness", so any change in sound with a new cable is welcomed.
 Yes the 6,3 mm plug is a downside, and it's heavier than a small 3,5 mm plug, so adaptors is unconvenient too...


----------



## luukas

Since the HD25-13 cable is hardly portable anyway, wouldn't cutting any extra cable away and replacing the connector with a 3.5mm one be the simplest solution?


----------



## saint.panda

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *luukas* 
_Since the HD25-13 cable is hardly portable anyway, wouldn't cutting any extra cable away and replacing the connector with a 3.5mm one be the simplest solution? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Good idea and the best solution would be doing this kind of thing with an Oehlbach cable. JaZZ had a Oehlbach cable which he reduced to a lenght of about 1.5m and terminated with a 3.5mm plug. That, in my opinion, is pretty much best cable you could have for the HD 25-1 (flexible, short, 3.5mm plug, great sound). However, not everbody is gifted with diy skills or has the time/compassion to do such a thing.

 edit: short update on the hd 25-13 cable. The connectors are definately more high class than the steel cable's. They look almost exactly like the HD 650 connectors sans gold-plating.


----------



## nierika

In other Senn cable news, the Zu Mobius promo has returned to eBay! 2.5m for $199 (that's $45 off retail). So if you're looking for a replacement cable that will make your HD650 look prettier without changing the sound, this is it!


----------



## KZEE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nierika* 
_In other Senn cable news, the Zu Mobius promo has returned to eBay! 2.5m for $199 (that's $45 off retail). So if you're looking for a replacement cable that will make your HD650 look prettier without changing the sound, this is it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I did a search on eBay for the Zu cable promo, but no results came up. Care to help me out?


----------



## nierika

They had 4 of them on eBay a couple days ago (none right now). Keep an eye out for it!


----------



## KZEE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nierika* 
_They had 4 of them on eBay a couple days ago (none right now). Keep an eye out for it!_

 

OK, thanks.


----------



## ken36

Great post. Very informative


----------



## Thaddy

Seriously dude, you bumped this thread just to say that?


----------



## MikoLayer

sorry i am a little late to the party (chuckles)
 but it is amazing to see how your findings on SD vs headphile are nearly identical to mine, almost word for word. Currently I settled with what is in my sig, I prefer it to my old headphiles. SDs found a new home not long after they came to me bundled with the HD-650s.

 I am looking forward to testing out the zu's, which I kinda gave up on ($300 for cables? geez), but still sound great according to your review.


----------



## james of hk

I got the HD650s.The vocal sounds more in the right but not centered,is that my pair of HD650 got some problems.


----------



## Neogeo333

Just won a Zu Mobius mk2 for my HD650 on ebay. Will post impression once it get here.  Hope it brings new life to a seldom use phone.


----------



## Neogeo333

Update.  After 2 days of listening to the Mobius mk2.  The sound does change a bit.  Using the stock cable the sound is darker and heavier.  With the Mobius the sound get brighter and leaner.  It also sounds faster for some reason.  Maybe since it on the bright side of sound it feels faster also.  Zu recommend more that 400 hours of break-in for it.  I doubt any cable needs that long of time to break in.  Usually all my cables settle down with 150-200 hours of break in well see how this does later on.  Detail and clarity seems about the same.  Soundstage just a tad more open.  Overall nice sounding cables.  My take is this cable will make your HD650 less dark sounding and improve soundstage.


----------



## Neogeo333

Forgot to add that the Mobius is going back to Zu because the split where it has heat-shrink has come loose and it showing the internal cables.  Maybe they did a rush job with these.  Other part of the cable seems top quality material.


----------

