# How Low is Low Enough? Subwoofer Questions...



## Mozhoven

I'm currently shopping around for a sub to put with my dedicated 2-channel system. 

 I'm running Monitor Audio 303's and they get down to something like 37hz (if memory serves* CORRECTION: it is 35hz*). The bass is nice enough, but I want a lower bottom end. There are lots of well reviewed subwoofers (like Eosone RSP 910) but they don't get too low. The Eosone only gets down to 32hz, whereas others seem to average around 25hz, and a few down 21hz. 

 I'll be using my system in a small, 300 sqft space for music only. It'll be a mix of classical, rock, acoustic, well - everything. I like bass - I like it a lot. 

 If I bought a nice sub with a bottom end around 32hz, will I be missing out? Should I hold out for a deeper sub?


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## chesebert

it's not the quantity but the quality.


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## bigshot

The lower the sub goes, the more power it will take to drive it at a level close to flat. 32Hz is pretty doggone good. That's low enough to rattle the doors.

 See ya
 Steve


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## fhuang

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it's not the quantity but the quality._

 


 i guess you're not a true basshead
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 i suppose the poster ask for both quality AND quantity. the lower the better, right?


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## Carmantom

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *chesebert* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it's not the quantity but the quality._

 

Agreed! I had some Scan-Speak 7's in my 2 channel system about 35Hz and it was the cleanest, tightest bass I had ever heard. what little I may have missed I made up in quality of the bass. 

 No doubt in Home Theater it has to be much lower.


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## warpdriver

I'd say get a sub that covers down to 25Hz. That will give enough foundation for any music you can throw at it. Getting below 25Hz is mainly necessary for movie watching, but that requires a very big box.

 I would recommend the Martin Logan Abyss as a musical sub that can attain 25Hz with and be down only a few dB (rated _/-3dB down to 25Hz)

 There is no miracle cheap small subwoofer that can do deep and loud bass, it's physics. You need hefty cabinets, drivers, amps to provide clean sound if you are looking to shake up the house. And that usually costs more


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## Mozhoven

Thanks for the responses. I do want to clarify that I feel quality is paramount, but of course it's always nice to have that "theoretical" low should one need it!

 So, I've got a little line-up here of subs that I'm interested in. I would love to get the MartinLogan, but it's pushing $1K! So, I have to scale it back a bit. Here is the list with specs. 

 Keep in mind I have a small space, so size becomes an issue. If I could find an 8" that is quality I would jump on it, 10" would be the biggest I would think I can use. Your top 3 or 4 would be great. Definite rejects would be helpful too!

 ---------------------------------

*Definitive Technology ProSub 80*
 * 8" Polumer cone woofer
 * 250 watt RMS amplifier
 **21Hz - 150Hz* frequency response

 ---------------------------
*NHT Subwoofer- SW2si* & NHT Subwoofer AMP SA-2
 * 10” polypropylene woofer
 * Power Output (amp): 120 watts RMS into 8 ohms, 165 watts into 4 ohms
 * Response: *27Hz to 500Hz*

 ----------------------------
*Infinity PS 210*
 * 10" 
 * Power 300-wattsRMS 
 * Frequency response : *27Hz-150Hz*

 ----------------------------
*Polk Audio PSW10*
 * 10" front-firing driver
 * 50-watt RMS amplifier
 * Frequency response *40-160 Hz *

 ----------------------------
*Eosone RSP-910 *
 * 10"
 * Power 55W rms / 77W peak power
 * Frequency Response *32Hz - 200Hz*

 -----------------------
*Klipsch KSW 100 Synergy Series*
 * 8"
 * 100 Watts continuous into 4 ohms
 * Frequency Response: *34 -120 Hz *

 -------------------------
*Polk Audio PSW303*
 * 8"
 * 100 Watt Continuous (260 Watt Dynamic) 
 * Overall Frequency Response: *28Hz - 200Hz *

 -----------------------
*KEF PSW2150*
 * 10" 
 * 250 Watt
 * Frequency Range: *30 Hz - 140 Hz*

 -----------------------
*CADENCE CSX-12***
 * 12" 
 * 250 WATT
 * Frequency Response: *10-120 Hz*

 **I threw in the 12" because of the low FR and low $$


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## Know Talent

If you want LF look up M&K offerings...


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## bigshot

In a 300 square foot space, you aren't going to be getting any 20Hz sound anyway. The length of a soundwave at that frequency is as long as a Mack truck. You'd need a much larger room to be able to get that low. As the previous poster said, don't worry about extension. Worry about the quality. Audition the speakers and see if you like the way they sound. That's the ONLY way to choose speakers. No one can tell you which is the best. You need to hear for yourself.

 See ya
 Steve


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## warpdriver

Outlaw LFM2 or its cousin Hsu STF-1 should be on your list.

 Hsu and Outlaw sub have all been praised for good sound quality.


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## warpdriver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In a 300 square foot space, you aren't going to be getting any 20Hz sound anyway._

 

That is a common myth. With that logic, we shouldn't ever be able to hear something even as low as 40Hz, because you'd still need a room longer than 28 feet. You can definitely get very low frequencies in small room but only in certain spots. I can assure you that I'm getting a true 20Hz signal in my room that is smaller than a mack truck


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## milkpowder

I found this post on another forum. Any truth to it?

  Quote:


 Post #3
 I don't know how it is in this case, but there is a common misconception that a wavelength has to "fit" insida a room in order to make audible sound. That the largest room dimension should be at least a half or whatever portion of a wavelength.

 This is not the case.

 One can divide the frequency range in three parts:

 "high" frequencies; those above the Schröder frequency (which typicaly is ~200 Hz). In this frequency range the sound field is reverberant, and there is little use in studying individual room responances since they are so many and close together.

 "mid" frequencies below the Schröder frequency and above the lowest resonance of the room. For box shaped rooms, this resonance occurs when the longest dimension of the room* is half a wavelength. In this range, room resonances are often troublesome and cause an uneven frequency response. Some frequencies are emphasised and others are attenuated.

 "low" frequencies, below the "mid" range. If the loudspeaker has a flat response down to DC in free space (which of course is very hypothetical), the response in an airtight room will increase by 12 dB/octave towards lower frequencies.

 So, contrary to the common belief that low frequencies are hard to generate in a room, it is actually the other way around. Low frequencies are typically amplified inside a room compared to free space. The "mid" range is problematic, however, for hifi sound reproduction due to the unevenness that occurs.

 *not the diagonal, but the wall-to-wall distance. For a room of 6x4x2.5 metres, this is 6 metres, and the frequency is 345/12=29 Hz.


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## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *warpdriver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can definitely get very low frequencies in small room but only in certain spots. I can assure you that I'm getting a true 20Hz signal in my room that is smaller than a mack truck_

 

How do you determine those spots? You're going to have to bounce soundwaves off the wall. How do you get them to bounce and still maintain their original shape?

 I'll check out the link you posted when I get to work.

 Thanks
 Steve


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## Mozhoven

My space is measures 24' x 12', if that makes a difference. That being said, I'll be listening within 10" of the speakers. 

 Any thoughts about *Eosone *subs? I know they are discontinued, but I've read good reviews about them and have the opportunity to get one a good price. (the one on my list)


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## warpdriver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How do you determine those spots? You're going to have to bounce soundwaves off the wall. How do you get them to bounce and still maintain their original shape?_

 

it's all quite complicated. This program will help RealTraps - ModeCalc identify room modes

 But in the end, it's easy to determine by just taking measurements with a mic, test tones, and RTA software such as TrueRTA

 See what they did here THX: Making the Magic Happen: Component Calibration

 Lots of neat videos here RealTraps - Videos (of course, slanted toward convincing that you need to buy their product...which is probably true) to illustrate the acoustics problems and how bass behaves in rooms


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## TheAnomaly

bass is sort of a tricky thing i think. 40 hz (iirc), for instance, is already enough to shake most things in your room, and it is around this range that most bass in music occurs (right?). if you have a good response to 30 hz, wouldn't that be adequate for most purposes?

 while we're on the subject of quality though, what's the best subwoofer that can dig down to around 30 hz that costs $300-400? not opposed to going used. the AV-123 X-Sub is a promising contendor, but i'm concerned about that port noise, and the notion of an 8" subwoofer for that price seems somewhat implausible to me. 

 this is for use in a bedroom/small living room.


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## Mozhoven

Is the AV-123 considered a "musical" sub? 

 After reading tons of reviews on the web, I'm narrowing my criteria to Musical first, deep second. Since my space is so small, (and I'll be so close to the sub), I don't think I'll need to dip down into the mid-low twenties.


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## warpdriver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *TheAnomaly* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_bass is sort of a tricky thing i think. 40 hz (iirc), for instance, is already enough to shake most things in your room, and it is around this range that most bass in music occurs (right?). if you have a good response to 30 hz, wouldn't that be adequate for most purposes?._

 

I agree actually. There is some music with content below 30Hz (namely pipe organs), but getting down to 30Hz is very satisfying for music alone.


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## warpdriver

For music, I have always preferred a sealed sub. I'm using a small SVS SB12+ (you can sometimes find them as B-stock for $600) which is a 12" sub in a 14" box. I'm using them with B&W monitors for most music listening and the occasional movie even with trememdously good results. 

 Have you considered the Martin Logan Dynamo? It's not as expensive as the Abyss, but should be very satisfying in your application. You could also probably pick it up for around $600 after negotiation. I've seen used ones around $450-500


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## GordonFreeman

Klipsch - 12" 650W Powered Subwoofer - SUB-12

 Seems like this would do the trick. Freq response compliments your speakers and with the 12 inch driver it will provide enough percussion to FEEL realistic and the down firing unit should be easy to place.

 I have a couple of Velodynes in the house and they have been great. Here is one for ya.

Velodyne | DPS-12 12" 400 Watts Forward Firing | DPS12
 Front firing port on this unit is nice too, might be able to get it closer to the wall than your typical rear port subs.
New Velodyne DPS12 DPS 12 SUBWOOFER 12" - eBay (item 270221526789 end time May-19-08 11:41:35 PDT)


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## warpdriver

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GordonFreeman* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Klipsch - 12" 650W Powered Subwoofer - SUB-12

 Seems like this would do the trick. Freq response compliments your speakers and with the 12 inch driver it will provide enough percussion to FEEL realistic and the down firing unit should be easy to place._

 

Yeah, I don't know about that one. This reviewer didn't think the RW12 (the higher end version of the Sub 12) was that good
Sound and Vision Magazine - Shootout: Five Mid-Price Subwoofers


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## royewest

There is a glorious DIY opportunity here, "The Legend of El Pipe-O": Pass D.I.Y. Spkrs: El Pipe-O: part1

 "Funny things happen when your speakers are flat to 13 Hz. You have to be careful about your tone arm, your windows, your neighbors, and your bowels."


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## GordonFreeman

I just thought those two were worth a look. Im sure someone disagrees but Ive had good luck with Velodyne. I also thought a larger driver would better compliment his already fantastic speakers. I dont think an 8 or 10 inch unit will have that much to add.


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## vanger

If you have any local circuit city's nearby, try calling them and asking if they have any velodyne vrp-1200's. It's a 12" sub and should be on clearance. I got mine new for US$172 and I think display models go for around $145. It goes down to around 27 Hz. For your budget (I'm assuming $500ish) though, you could probably do better.

 I'm new to the whole speaker/sub scene so I have nothing to compare it to, but compared to my sennheiser hd-25's, I'd say the velodyne's bass is a little slower.

 And to sort of answer a previous question, sub placement makes a big difference. Corners are your friend. I hear a nice way to find out where to place your sub is to put your sub where you would normally sit and walk around various parts of your room and listen to it. The area where you notice the best bass response is where you should place your sub. I didn't bother doing this since there was only one place that I could place my sub in. When I walk around the house, the bass is definitely much more prominent near walls and in between hallways.


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## Mozhoven

Well, 

 I bit the bullet and bought a used Definitive ProSub 100tl. It is rated very well, noted by some for it's musicality. At 250watts it can get down to 20Hz. Not sure if I'll be able to take advantage of that in my 300 sqft. space, but it's nice to know it's there. 

 Speaking of placement, my options are limited. It is a work space (sculpture studio) and I have only two corners - for speakers and a sub. I was planning on building some 20" stands to raise the tweeters in my 302's to ear level (standing) and am now thinking that I could put one speaker on the sub, and build an identical box for the other speaker. 

 Will this work? Any problems setting a speaker on a sub?

Definitive Technology ProSub 100TL Reviews


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## vanger

If you plan on keeping the sub on the floor, I'm not sure your speakers will be raised high enough. My tweeters are a little bit below ear level (down to around my neck) and I notice it sounds better when I slouch and bring my ears down to the tweeters. I think at this point for me, putting my speakers on stands would be the next most cost efficient step for me.

 If you're worried about the sub shaking too much for a speaker to be set on, I'll have to try it out myself and get back to you. Can't do it now, but I'll post back when I do.

 Oh and that sub looks very nice 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I need to get away from these forums after already buying gear so I don't feel the need to audition for more equipment


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## GordonFreeman

Instinct tells me that it would be better to separate the two. Congrats, looks like a nice unit.


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## Mozhoven

What if I use vibration suppresion pads between the two? I know some have mentioned that having a negative effect on the speakers performance, but my options are limited somewhat. Placing the speaker on the sub would be ideal if it will work out. 

 Oh, and thanks for the compliments - it helps shake of buyer's remorse!


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## warpdriver

Just be aware that Definitive's specs for a sub (claim response down to 20Hz) are nothing close to reality. I should have mentioned that before. Some vendors publish honest specs but Definitive isn't one of them. They have some of the most exaggerated specs among any major sub vendor.

 Here's one example:
*Supercube III*
 Claimed specs on their web page:
 Frequency Response: 16Hz – 200Hz 

Actual measurements:
 -3dB point is at 46Hz! -6dB point is 28Hz

 I have no idea how they could claim 16Hz bass extension

 Second example:
*Prosub 1000*
 Claimed:
 Frequency Response: 18 Hz – 150 Hz

Actual:
 The ProSub 1000's close-miked response, normalized to the level at 80 Hz, indicates that the lower –3-dB point is at 39 Hz and the –6-dB point is at 34 Hz.
 Translation: the actual specs should read: 39-120 Hz +/-3dB ....quite a difference from the claimed specs

 I doubt the sub you bought is really putting out much sound below 35Hz.

 Velodyne is very honest with their specs:
 Here is the Microvee I bought 

 Claimed:
 38 - 120 Hz (+/- 3 dB) 

 Actual as I measured myself: http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8876/005gn3.jpg

 pretty much as claimed


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## Mozhoven

I figured as much, but the deal is done. At least I have 40+ reviews that tell me I won't be disappointed. Many of the reviews said they had subs rated to go down to 25Hz and having purchased the ProSub 100tl felt it went much lower. 

 My MA 303's get down to 35hz, so I'll give them a side-by-side test and see which goes lower. At the very least, it's rated as a very good musical sub and hopefully will free up my MA's to tackled the Mid's and High's on their own. 

 I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Austin 3:16

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Mozhoven* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm currently shopping around for a sub to put with my dedicated 2-channel system. 

 I'm running Monitor Audio 303's and they get down to something like 37hz (if memory serves* CORRECTION: it is 35hz*). The bass is nice enough, but I want a lower bottom end. There are lots of well reviewed subwoofers (like Eosone RSP 910) but they don't get too low. The Eosone only gets down to 32hz, whereas others seem to average around 25hz, and a few down 21hz. 

 I'll be using my system in a small, 300 sqft space for music only. It'll be a mix of classical, rock, acoustic, well - everything. I like bass - I like it a lot. 

 If I bought a nice sub with a bottom end around 32hz, will I be missing out? Should I hold out for a deeper sub?_

 

It depends. If the speaker/sub is rated plus/minus 3db @ 37hz, it's probably -3db's at that frequency. You'd have to biamp the low driver, and feed it twice the power to achieve a true 37hz. But you'd have to cross over the low driver in the range in which it's frequency begins to drop off, totally messing up the mids you'd cut out as a resullt. If it's -10db @ 37hz, it realisticly wound output 37hz at a level you could hear (or at least usefully). It takes a sub to achieve real bass. And the larger, the better. Micro subs have Macro distortion, and no REAL sub 20hz output. And for home audio, ported subs or infinite baffle is the way to go.


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## Lonfident

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *warpdriver* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'd say get a sub that covers down to 25Hz. That will give enough foundation for any music you can throw at it. Getting below 25Hz is mainly necessary for movie watching, but that requires a very big box.

 I would recommend the Martin Logan Abyss as a musical sub that can attain 25Hz with and be down only a few dB (rated _/-3dB down to 25Hz)

 There is no miracle cheap small subwoofer that can do deep and loud bass, it's physics. You need hefty cabinets, drivers, amps to provide clean sound if you are looking to shake up the house. And that usually costs more_

 

Agreed. I'd recommend a Dayton *Titanic *12" sub. That's right, a 12" sub. You don't have to blast it, and don't worry about the wavelength, which is as long as a warehouse and won't fit in any home room. You will notice tne increase in sound quality.


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## Haverty2004

This may be kind of late but try the EAW SB 2001. Warning in 300 sq ft this may cause infrastructure damge. Or you could always go with a rotary subwoofer. Great technology there with a frequency response all the way to 1 hz.


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## Rozeqloud

If this thread is still alive , i need to ask if i need a separate amp , other than my Hegel H360 to use a sub ?

I cant imagine how a sub would fit into my setup 

I have considered the Dynaudio line ,as they may match well with my focus 340s

Cheers


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## cel4145

Rozeqloud said:


> I cant imagine how a sub would fit into my setup



What is your setup? What gear (make/model)?


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## cel4145

Also, what is your budget and how big is your room?


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## Rozeqloud

cel4145 said:


> Also, what is your budget and how big is your room?





cel4145 said:


> What is your setup? What gear (make/model)?



Thank you

I have a Hegel H360 amp

I have sussed that i can use a sub on the fixed output so all is good there

My room is quite small

Im under 20 ft from my speakers(Dynaudio focus 340s)

I ve looked at the Dyn subs the sub 6 is their top gear i think

Very expensive at near 3k  Is that not alota money for boom ?

I admit im new to the sub world tho , so maybe there is extreme value in near 3k for a sub ?

My budget is pretty well maxed if i was to get that Dyn sub. But given more time i could afford more

Im in between deciding what my next audio gear/toy will be TBH 

What ever offers the biggest difference is likely where ill go

I ve been following the Realizer A 16 on here and elsewhere for well over a year or so

In a perfect scenario i would just get both 

Im honestly trying to decide which would add the most difference/contrast to what i  already have

Thank you


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## cel4145

You don't want to use a sub on a fixed output. Need to use the variable level output so that once your sub gain (volume) is optimized for your room/setup, then the sub's volume goes up and down with the speaker volume.

It's not how far away from your speakers, but rather how big in volume your room is. Subs interact with the whole room, and so you will need more or less sub in max output depending on your room size and listening volumes. Room size also greatly influences whether or not you are better off with ported or sealed sub.

If your room is not terribly large, you might be better off spending some of that money on EQ for the sub. Sub frequency response is greatly impacted by room interaction and typically need EQ. 

A new amp would likely provide minimal benefit in SQ. Whereas if your current setup lacks bass at lower frequencies that you would like to hear, you know you can benefit from a sub.

If you are in the US, I wouldn't buy a Dynaudio sub. Typically, most speaker brand subs are over-priced compared to the value you can get with Internet direct subwoofer companies like Rythmik Audio, SVS Sound, HSU Research, and Power Sound Audio.


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## Rozeqloud

cel4145 said:


> You don't want to use a sub on a fixed output. Need to use the variable level output so that once your sub gain (volume) is optimized for your room/setup, then the sub's volume goes up and down with the speaker volume.
> 
> It's not how far away from your speakers, but rather how big in volume your room is. Subs interact with the whole room, and so you will need more or less sub in max output depending on your room size and listening volumes. Room size also greatly influences whether or not you are better off with ported or sealed sub.
> 
> ...



Thanks very much

My room is quite small 

Does a sub have to be out front and directed at me as speakers do ?

i have room by my left facing speaker . Can a sub sit within inches of a speaker

Now that i think of it im wondering where the heck i could actually place a sub

Cheers


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## cel4145

Yes. You can put it next to a speaker.  No. It doesn't have to be directed at you.

Subs interact with the room, and even moving a sub a couple of feet along one wall can affect how it sounds at the listening position. So that one spot might not be the best place for the sub to perform in your room. Many people try it in several positions to see where it sounds best. Or they try the sub crawl.


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## Rozeqloud

cel4145 said:


> Yes. You can put it next to a speaker.  No. It doesn't have to be directed at you.
> 
> Subs interact with the room, and even moving a sub a couple of feet along one wall can affect how it sounds at the listening position. So that one spot might not be the best place for the sub to perform in your room. Many people try it in several positions to see where it sounds best. Or they try the sub crawl.


Thank you mate


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