# Panasonic or Nichicon



## Cecala

I'm building the Sigma22 PS and have to pick between Panasonic FC series and Nichicon capacitors(Various series). I need opinions from knowledgeable people about which is superior. Please state reasons in detail.


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## tomb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Cecala* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm building the Sigma22 PS and have to pick between Panasonic FC series and Nichicon capacitors(Various series). I need opinions from knowledgeable people about which is superior. Please state reasons in detail._

 

You might do what the rest of us do: look up the impedance and ripple ratings in the DigiKey and Mouser catalogs and compare. Surprisingly, you may find the Nichicon UHE caps are better rated than the UPW's or FC's. Of course, a Panasonic FM beats all of them unless it's not available in the size desired, which I'm assuming is the case from your question.


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## fordgtlover

Of the 'common' caps recommended by AMB, based on a 50V 150uf cap, it appears the order is 

 Nichicon pw
 Nichicon he
 Panasonic fc
 Panasonic fm


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## tomb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *fordgtlover* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Of the 'common' caps recommended by AMB, based on a 50V 150uf cap, it appears the order is_

 

Nichicon pw: *0.162 ... 615*
 Nichicon he: *0.12 ... 760*
 Panasonic fc: *0.119 ... 850*
 Panasonic fm: *0.042 ... 1170*

 Yes - just to make sure, because the order of your post confused me - your list is worst to best, top to bottom. The FM's are significantly better at 0.042 ohms impedance (lowest) and 1170ma ripple current (highest).


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## Cecala

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You might do what the rest of us do: look up the impedance and ripple ratings in the DigiKey and Mouser catalogs and compare._

 

Thanks to all for your responses. BTW Tomb, yes I could look up the above catalogs and so on to find info that I require. Although by posting my question I might reduce my workload, especially something as tedious as looking at fine print in catalogs and benefit from work already done by others-such as yourself.


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## fordgtlover

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nichicon pw: *0.162 ... 615*
 Nichicon he: *0.12 ... 760*
 Panasonic fc: *0.119 ... 850*
 Panasonic fm: *0.042 ... 1170*

 Yes - just to make sure, because the order of your post confused me - your list is worst to best, top to bottom. The FM's are significantly better at 0.042 ohms impedance (lowest) and 1170ma ripple current (highest)._

 

Sorry. I should have been clearer in stating that the list was worst to best. Cheers Tomb.


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## n_maher

Given the measured (by amb) ripple on the output of the sigma22 using the "worst" upw's I think it's safe to say that they're doing their job just fine. If you want to use better rated caps just be aware that you've crossed a performance threshold that borders on absurd.


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## tomb

True enough, Nate - except that the Panasonic FM's are cheaper than UPW's - cheaper than FC's by a long shot. Only the UHE is cheaper in the size we've been talking about in this thread and only by 1 cent (DigiKey prices).


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## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_True enough, Nate - except that the Panasonic FM's are cheaper than UPW's - cheaper than FC's by a long shot. Only the UHE is cheaper in the size we've been talking about in this thread and only by 1 cent (DigiKey prices). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Your saying the Panasonic FM's are cheaper than the Panasonic FC's?

 The FM's are much better. I use quite a bit of them.

 Another good series is United Chemicon KZE. Quite cheap.


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## amb

The minor difference in specs notwithstanding, I basically treat the Panasonic FC, FM and Nichicon UHE, UPW series as equivalents for PSU rails. Which one I use is determined more by the availability in a specific size (diameter, pitch and height for proper fitment), and which vendor I'm also ordering parts other parts from.


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## budx3385

what about the Elna for audio series?


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## tomb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *LawnGnome* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your saying the Panasonic FM's are cheaper than the Panasonic FC's?<snip> ..._

 

YES - that's been my argument. Their ratings are better than FC's and UPW's, and then to sharpen the point, they are cheaper, too. The only caveat to using Panasonic FM's is what Amb mentions - the line is not as extensive as FC's or UPW's. FM's only go to 50V, for instance, and smaller ratings are not available at low voltages, either.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *budx3385* 
_ what about the Elna for audio series?_

 

"For audio" is the key. We've been talking about caps in a Power Supply _outside_ of the signal path. "For audio" usually implies a cap that's sufficiently tonal in quality that it can be placed in the signal path without sounding bad. Outstanding power caps such as the Pana FM's can often sound harsh in the direct signal path. However, "audio caps" - including the Elnas - do not have impedance and ripple current ratings that are as good as the Panasonic FM's.

 That said, some have pointed out that the voltage in the power circuit ends up in the signal path, anyway. So, a case can be made that an audio cap might be appropriate in a power supply despite ratings that are not quite as good. It depends on the particular amp design whether an audio cap would be of benefit vs. a power cap of better ratings such as the FM.

 Amb's B22 is good enough in this instance that none of these issues come up. He has said that any of the caps mentioned will provide excellent performance and you can bank on that. The Elna's would probably be OK, too, but you will have paid a huge price to make no difference. IMHO and YMMV x10


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## Seaside

If I have to list them according to my personal preference, it would be ... HE, FM, PW, FC. Your preference may differ from mine. At least, they all are good for PSU positon.


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## dsavitsk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_"For audio" is the key. We've been talking about caps in a Power Supply outside of the signal path. "For audio" usually implies a cap that's sufficiently tonal in quality that it can be placed in the signal path without sounding bad._

 

Tom, you like to say this, but I think it is simply not true. Everything is in the signal path. It is true that some circuits, particularly solid state circuits, have good PSRR, but the ripple and noise that is rejected is not necessarily linear. So, just because an opamp, for example, can reject 60Hz or 120Hz noise, it does not mean that it can reject HF or even audio frequency noise. Certainly some circuits are better than others, and it may be that Amb's circuits are so good that the quality of the caps is unimportant, but in many other instances, the quality of the power supply cap matters a lot.

 Here's Lynn Olson's explanation of how the PS caps are in the circuit path.






 And, to add my thoughts a little, I once did a little cap listening experiment where I used a "cmoy" type circuit as a gain stage for a DAC (The DAC usually uses a tube gain stage and sounds very good.) I settled on two different opamps (OPA637 and AD843), and tried a whole series of electrolytic caps right on the power pins (bypassed by 0.1uF stacked foil caps which surely influenced the sound). Differences in sound were, in some cases, as large as switching opamps. Also, I didn't do any extensive burn in as I was too lazy. The basic results from best to worst were as follows (and notice there is lots of stuff I didn't try):

 1. BlackGate N series -- these just sound good -- clean and clear and full
 2. Elna Cerafine -- also clean and clear, maybe a touch worse than the BG N, maybe not. Good choice if you can get them.
 3. United Chemi-Con NPCAP (These are more or less like OSCONS) -- not quite as full as the ones above, but pretty good, very smooth.
 4. BG Std -- clean and clear, but maybe a little thin sounding.
 5. Nichicon Muse KZ -- a little hard on top, but only a little.
 6. Elna Silmic -- These sound a little hard to me, but detail and speed is good.
 7. Panasonic FM -- nice full warm bass, but missing something in the treble. Seem a little noisy on top too.
 8. Panasonic FC/Nichicon UPW -- I think there is a pretty big drop off to either of these. Hard and unmusical sounding -- only useful for breadboarding.

 As I say, different circuits are going to behave differently, but at least for a simple opamp, this is what I found.


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## tomb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *dsavitsk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tom, you like to say this, but I think it is simply not true. Everything is in the signal path. It is true that some circuits, particularly solid state circuits, have good PSRR, but the ripple and noise that is rejected is not necessarily linear. </snip>_

 

Gee, Doug - fair enough I suppose, but I'm not the only one that says it - and it's a well respected opinion. Maybe you didn't see my next paragraph above after I said that:
  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomb* 
_That said, some have pointed out that the voltage in the power circuit ends up in the signal path, anyway. So, a case can be made that an audio cap might be appropriate in a power supply despite ratings that are not quite as good. It depends on the particular amp design whether an audio cap would be of benefit vs. a power cap of better ratings such as the FM._

 

So - not as useful as your info, for sure - my opinions never are - but I did say it. I also agree that perhaps the simpler the circuit, the more effect these caps will have. Nevertheless, you ended up saying the same thing: the Panasonic FM's are much better than FC's and UPW's. Since they're significantly cheaper in many sizes, it's a no-brainer from my perspective.

 Anyway - thanks for your capacitor opinions as always - I always enjoy reading them and learning something else.


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## dsavitsk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tomb* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So - not as useful as your info, for sure - my opinions never are_

 

I think you give me more credit than I deserve.

  Quote:


 the Panasonic FM's are much better than FC's and UPW's. Since they're significantly cheaper in many sizes, it's a no-brainer from my perspective. 
 

No doubt. And, as I say, to my ear this is the dividing line between usable and not. I built a gainclone PS once with 20x1000uF FM's and it sounded (and continues to sound) really good. Another one with 2x10,000uF Panny caps sounded terrible. Same design, just a different cap bank. I now use that lousy PS in my 3 channel Szekeres where it seems to make little difference. (You can see the 20 cap PS attached to a 41Hz digital amp here where it did no good -- nothing could make that amp listenable)

 Now, I have also built parafeed circuits where the quality of the CCS essentially determines whether the caps matter. With a good CCS, JJ electrolytics are great, and indistinguishable from high quality film caps. But, with a lousy CCS, they sound terrible while the higher quality caps continue to sound good -- though not as good as they could, perhaps.


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## budx3385

nice work and helpful list, dsavitsk

 I only tried 3 diff caps as PS reserve for the output opamps, and it made a huge diff

 here's the Elna for audio cap I tried - it says RFS series on the catalog page - it said Silmic when I bought it - not near as pricey as the BG-N
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...me=604-1056-ND


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## amb

Note that Lynn Olson's diagram posted by dsavitsk above specifically states that it applies to Class AB amps. Also note that the power supply is unregulated with the large filter/reservoir caps directly feeding the amp.

 On Class A amps with constant power supply current draw, and amps fed by a regulated PSU with only small caps at the regulator's output, the "loop" as depicted in the diagram becomes nonexistent. Also, on 3-channel active ground or 4-channel balanced amps, the load current does not return to ground, also eliminating a loop (particularly when all three channels operate in class A).

 Hence in these scenarios, the premise that the PSU "is part of the signal path" no longer applies. The PSU operates largely in _stasis_ (to coin a Threshold term), and the use of boutique caps on the supply rails (before _or_ after the regulator) of these amps therefore offer little real world advantage.

 Olson's diagram is actually a great way to infer the synergistic benefits when class A operation, 3-channel active ground or 4-channel balanced outputs and a high performance, wideband regulated PSU are combined.


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## BrianDonegan

Quote:


 However, "audio caps" - including the Elnas - do not have impedance and ripple current ratings that are as good as the Panasonic FM's. 
 

the ELNA for Audio caps that Digikey sells do not actually list ANY specification in the datasheet. Not one. In fact, the DigiKey catalog page at least lists ripple current spec, so is a bit more informative. I see now that the datasheet no longer exists on the Elna site.

 I used these caps in the Opus DAC for a while, then switched to Vishay OSCON, then to Panasonic FK (SMT version of FM), which we decided to use across the board for power sections. We stuck with Vishay OSCONs for audio path due to their super low ESR.

 I know there is a lot more to the choice than specs alone, but that does not mean they can be ignored. My 2 cents.


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## tomb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *BrianDonegan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the ELNA for Audio caps that Digikey sells do not actually list ANY specification in the datasheet. Not one. In fact, the DigiKey catalog page at least lists ripple current spec, so is a bit more informative. I see now that the datasheet no longer exists on the Elna site.

 I used these caps in the Opus DAC for a while, then switched to Vishay OSCON, then to Panasonic FK (SMT version of FM), which we decided to use across the board for power sections. We stuck with Vishay OSCONs for audio path due to their super low ESR.

 I know there is a lot more to the choice than specs alone, but that does not mean they can be ignored. My 2 cents._

 

Granted, it was a sweeping statement, but in the Engineering profession, if specs aren't published in a competitive environment - it's for a reason. Just as a for instance - since the 150uf 50V is not available in the DigiKey Elna's - take a 470uf 35V:

 Elna RFS ripple current - 1030
 Panasonic FM ripple current - 2180.

 ESR is related to ripple current like so, I believe:




 So that rating can be derived and it will obviously not be as good as the Panasonic FM, either.

 We strayed quite a bit in this thread with budx3385's question on Elna's, but the OP's first post had to do with power supplies - "I'm building the Sigma22 *PS* ..."


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## budx3385

tomb, would you please tell me, or tell me where to learn, why a large value of "ripple current" is good for a PS reserve cap? I can intuit why a low ESR is good, and why a low power consumption is good, so maybe it's just the term "ripple current" that doesn't seem transparent to me.

 thanks for your patience - there's so much to learn !!!


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## amphead

Quote:


 AMB:
 On Class A amps with constant power supply current draw, and amps fed by a regulated PSU with only small caps at the regulator's output, the "loop" as depicted in the diagram becomes nonexistent. 
 

Makes me feel a little better, not having used boutique on those.
 Great discussion Dsavitsk, Tomb on your recommendations for components as always!


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## LawnGnome

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *budx3385* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tomb, would you please tell me, or tell me where to learn, why a large value of "ripple current" is good for a PS reserve cap? I can intuit why a low ESR is good, and why a low power consumption is good, so maybe it's just the term "ripple current" that doesn't seem transparent to me.

 thanks for your patience - there's so much to learn !!!_

 

The ripple current is the difference in current from peak to peak in the rail. If it is too high, a cap can heat up and fail, or have degraded performance.

 Things like switching power supplies this is crucial.


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## tomb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *budx3385* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_tomb, would you please tell me, or tell me where to learn, why a large value of "ripple current" is good for a PS reserve cap? I can intuit why a low ESR is good, and why a low power consumption is good, so maybe it's just the term "ripple current" that doesn't seem transparent to me.

 thanks for your patience - there's so much to learn !!!_

 

LawnGnome offered a good point. Ultimately, though, the more ripple that can be removed, the cleaner the power - but it's all inter-related. Because of that, it's a reasonable specification to compare the quality of electrolytic capacitors. If you have a high ripple current rating, you will have a low ESR and vice-versa. Ripple got an emphasis in yours and Brian's comments because the Elna's only have ripple current specified in the DigiKey catalog. Look at this equation again - you can't have one without the other:




 Imax in this equation is _ripple current._


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## budx3385

thanks --- I remember that power = E * I = I^2 * R. So, let's see, does that mean that power dissipated in a reserve cap, or from the other side, max power reserve handling compliance, would be directly related to current capacity (ie, ripple current),,, that makes sense,,, but then it would also be directly, not inversely, dependent on resistance. Am I confused? Is the reserve compliance actually the current capacity, not power ??? If so, then of course that is what one wants to maximize in a parallel power reserve cap, and of course that will be inversely related to the "equivalent series resistance". *By george, *something like that???


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## Bluetick

Lately, the thing that turns me off/on about a schematic is the power supply cap values. More and more, I lean towards designs that implement a relatively low cap value in the supply because I insist on either using motor run oils or Solen MKP. When the value of the supply cap is too large to justify the cost of doing this, I look for another schematic. If ever there was testament to how much I value the quality of power supply caps- that is it. I stand strong on that notion based on my new Grado 1000's that have an uncanny ability to reveal all the electrolytic garbage you put in front of them. Even the almighty Blackgates sound like broken glass on these things. A poly or oil cap in the power supply is a must have for me. My 2 cents, anyway.


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## tomb

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *budx3385* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_thanks --- I remember that power = E * I = I^2 * R. So, let's see, does that mean that power dissipated in a reserve cap, or from the other side, max power reserve handling compliance, would be directly related to current capacity (ie, ripple current),,, that makes sense,,, but then it would also be directly, not inversely, dependent on resistance. Am I confused? Is the reserve compliance actually the current capacity, not power ??? If so, then of course that is what one wants to maximize in a parallel power reserve cap, and of course that will be inversely related to the "equivalent series resistance". *By george, *something like that???_

 

*By george*, you got me confused now. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think I see what you're talking about, because I've always thought of ripple current as being filtered by the cap, but the ESR determines how much of that current the cap can handle before its power rating is exceeded. So, the lower the ESR, the more ripple the cap can handle before it heats up too much.

 I think.


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## budx3385

tomB, that resonates 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so if you design a circuit for a particular bandpass, then you would choose a reserve that has a particular capacitance and - then - select one that has adequate power rating and sufficient ripple current capacity tp provide the reserve current capacity that will smooth the rail, yes?

 If I had that famous electronics textbook I saw once, I could look this up. Maybe it's time to look for that again. Suggestions appreciated ...






 Bluetick, I've been looking for a good 100mA 15 V PS circuit - what would you recommend?


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