# $100+ power cables worth it????



## pheonix991

I've seen these expensive power cables around, and I'm wondering if it is all just a hoax to get us to buy more things, or is there a real reason behind spending more than $100 on power cables? Why should I use the expensive ones instead of the big beefy one that came with my computer power supply that isn't in use?


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *pheonix991* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've seen these expensive power cables around, and I'm wondering if it is all just a hoax to get us to buy more things, or is there a real reason behind spending more than $100 on power cables? Why should I use the expensive ones instead of the big beefy one that came with my computer power supply that isn't in use?_

 

I made my own high end cable with rhodium plugs and high end cable and i could hear quite a substantial improvement over any other cable i had before, even expensive commercial ones.

 If it's worth the money is up to you but they DO make a difference.


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## skyline889

If you have to ask, then no. Power cables bring out a very argumentative crowd, so I'll get in here before the fur starts flying. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 In my experience, power cords bring a very small difference. Cables in general don't usually yield tremendous difference, more subtle nuances that can either increase your system's synergy or make something feel just a little off if you know what I mean. Power cables though have brought me less of an increase in performance than regular interconnects. With different interconnects, I didn't have to pay attention to notice the differences between different models while auditioning. With my Analog Research Silver Raincoat PC on the other hand, I only noticed a slight increase in resolution and a little more detail than the stock 14 gauger but it wasn't major and I _did_ have to listen for the differences. Perhaps higher end cords will bring substantially larger differences but I'm not sure, I primarily bought mine because I wanted a nice hefty cord for my power hungry Denon. I don't really believe in the extreme praise (i.e.-ZOMG my system is completely changed now!! Forget the higher end amplifier and source, my cables make my system sound the schitz) that people like Patrick82 have for boutique power cords, but I imagine there is some truth to it. I honestly can't say that it's worth the $100 plus the Silver Raincoat I bought retails for but for $50, meh, I think it was a worthwhile experience. 

 My advice to you would be to use the money towards higher end components. When your rig kind of gets settled, then work on ironing out the details with higher end interconnects and power cords. If you do want to get into good cables though, I would look into interconnects first. The step-up to high quality interconnects, made me enjoy the music even more. You don't need to spend an arm and a leg on these either though, on the used market, I've found that cables around the $50-100 mark yield the best price to performance ratio. Yes, I've auditioned cables like the Nordost SPM Reference/Frey, MIT Oracle/Shotgun/Magnum, Cardas Neutral/Golden Reference and yes, they're good but imho, the laws of diminishing returns kicks in with high end cables like these and you don't really get your money's worth back in terms of performance. If you have the money, then sure, that extra bit of performance is probably worth it, but for normal guys with "normal" budgets, money is probably better spent elsewhere.


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skyline889* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you have to ask, then no. Power cables bring out a very argumentative crowd, so I'll get in here before the fur starts flying. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No flying fur here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Just one vote for don't bother. 
 (Sold my Nordost Vishnu cords, bought some Volex and haven't noticed the sonic consequences). 

 If you hear some big difference, good for you, enjoy.


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## Patrick82

It depends on how your system sounds like and how you want it to sound. If you like edgy and harsh sound then stock cable is for you. But if you can't listen for more than a few minutes before complaining then you need to fix the problem.


 The biggest difference came from PS Audio xStream Statement power cables, they made bass huge and added too much warmth and muddiness. I didn't like it because all the subtle details were gone.

 I have owned Nordost Vishnu the longest and they made a subtle difference but I'm not sure they are worth the price. Vishnu adds smoothness compared to a stock cable, that's all I heard. There is too much smoothness and lack of dynamics which gives the illusion that there is something in front of the music, it sounds too flat and lifeless. It's very relaxing though.

 With Valhalla there is nothing in front of the music, it sounds like real life. That's why this cable is worth thousands of dollars to me.


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## markl

Your thread is just inviting yet another food-fight on this topic.

 What you'll see is a small minority (look at the polls, the cable nay-sayers *are* a minority here but LOUD), who will try to dominate the "discussion" (argument/fight) about this topic.

 They will be so vocal and are so militant on the topic and they always turn up, it may appear to you that they must be "right".

 The rest of us are too tired of fighting about so-called "issues" within audiophilia that really aren't controversial among the vast majority of audiohiles and haven't been for eons.

 We're also too busy enjoying out $100+ power cords to bother. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Short answer from me (after sampling 25 different aftermarket cords)-- each one has its own sound (even your stock power cord has its own sound). Are $100 cords "worth" it? Depends on the cord, and the system it's in. Why would stick a $100 cord on a $300 source? Buy a better source instead.


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## Thelonious Monk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I made my own high end cable with rhodium plugs and high end cable and i could hear quite a substantial improvement over any other cable i had before, even expensive commercial ones.

 If it's worth the money is up to you but they DO make a difference._

 

isn't rhodium like, $1000 per (troy) ounce? you're really dedicated man.

 edit: 69, my first milestone


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## PhilS

Hasn't there been a thread on this before? Or 2 or 3? Or maybe 500 or 600? 

 Seriously, if you do a search, you will find lengthy discussions and arguments, _ad nauseum_, on both sides of the issue. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In the spirit of the holiday season, let's not do it all again folks.


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## pheonix991

Thank you guys for the response. When I finally do reach $1000+ sources and amps, I may come back asking what kind of cable to build, but, let me get out of college first!

 Thanks again for the response. No fighting, we arn't even in the new year!!! And my bday is tomorrow!!!!


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## Iron_Dreamer

I'll just say that I once had a time to try out a very well reviewed high-end power cord. After having it in my rig for a week or so, I thought for sure I heard improvement. I had my friend swap it back and forth with the $10 Quail cord I had been using previously. Turns out the cord I always picked as the better sounding one (and they definitely sounded different, for whatever reason) was the Quail. Since then I've stuck with these nice little cords. I'd much rather have another pair of headphones, source, amp, etc. to enjoy than an expensive cable.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Thelonious Monk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_isn't rhodium like, $1000 per (troy) ounce? you're really dedicated man.

 edit: 69, my first milestone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, it's rare and expensive. The cable sounds incredable now. mainly rhodium is extreem wear resistant...so putting your plug in and out won't hurt the guilding. But i read on the www that rhodium also helps for the sound as well. The high end cable is able to get any last micro detail out of the amp. But there is some hit and miss; lots of amplifeirs have some kind of filtering system allready build in in the amp and filtering or a good cable can make less difference then an amp that has less filtering build in in the powersection. Buying expensive stuff isn't always a guarantee it sounds best or you get the best results. In my case the cables made a huge improvement in my system.

 I did a mini test myself: i had a cheap pc cable, a good silverplated commercial cable and my own home made high end cable. troughout the listen there was gradually improvements switching from the cheap pc cable to the high end cable... It was quite substantial.

 I have the feeling that tube amps in particular benefit from filtering and good cables...it seems transistor amps sometimes benefit not at all from good stuff, maybe because of the more advanced designs and better powerfiltering?!


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Thelonious Monk* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_isn't rhodium like, $1000 per (troy) ounce? you're really dedicated man.

 edit: 69, my first milestone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Yes, it's rare and expensive. The cable sounds incredable now. mainly rhodium is extreem wear resistant...so putting your plug in and out won't hurt the guilding. But i read on the www that rhodium also helps for the sound as well.

 P.s.
 well 69 is a classic.


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## bhd812

the only cable i tried and heard a difference enough to justify the price was my supra lorad power cable I bought for $180.00


 then again I bought a few more after that..probably bought to many actually..but I am not sure


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bhd812* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_the only cable i tried and heard a difference enough to justify the price was my supra lorad power cable I bought for $180.00


 then again I bought a few more after that..probably bought to many actually..but I am not sure_

 

The lorad cables have some kind of dampening inside the cable so there is no noise; perceived more gain! Don't they use some kind of carbon to do that?


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## swt61

You should just try to audition some in your system at a meet. If you hear a significant difference you can start trying different cables, if not you can save your money.

 I find a very significant difference with quality cables.


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## bigshot

There are much better things to work on improving in your system than cables. Save your money for something that really makes a difference.

 See ya
 Steve


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## Asr

>$100 power cords are worth it only if you have a source high-end enough to appreciate the difference as already pointed out. What's high-end enough? IMO, that starts at roughly $500.

 I own a Black Sand Violet Z1 that I paid $200 for (they retail for $300 I think) and use it on my Arcam DiVA CD73 (SRP $700). I state this because I don't want anyone else to make the same mistake - IMO there's something seriously wrong with using a power cord that's almost 50% the price of the source! I don't recommend that kind of move for anyone else. It's only ok for me because I'm insane as it is and common sense went out the window over a year ago when I bought my first high-end headphone (the AKG K271S). 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 However, the Violet might make more sense for me when I upgrade the CD73 to a CD192. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Regardless, I can definitely hear the difference between a generic 18 AWG IEC cord and the Violet. I don't think it was worth $200 though, but I try not to think about the price anymore.


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## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Asr* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IMO there's something seriously wrong with using a power cord that's almost 50% the price of the source! I don't recommend that kind of move for anyone else. It's only ok for me because I'm insane as it is and common sense went out the window over a year ago_

 

My Valhalla power cords cost 3 times more than the components they are powering. Crazy cable, I'm even using it for my computer and I can't be without it, it's that good!

 Power cords aren't worth it for skeptic trolls who don't even bother listening because they think they already know everything about everything. You need to experiment to hear what makes the biggest differences. How else can you know the truth? People just assume cables make a very small difference, but that's only true for crappy cables!


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Valhalla power cords cost 3 times more than the components they are powering. Crazy cable, I'm even using it for my computer and I can't be without it, it's that good!

 Power cords aren't worth it for skeptic trolls who don't even bother listening because they think they already know everything about everything. You need to experiment to hear what makes the biggest differences. How else can you know the truth? People just assume cables make a very small difference, but that's only true for crappy cables!_

 


 I agree. Once you have a system transparent enough, better cables do make a difference. If they are worth the money/performance is another thing but some cables do get the most out of your system. I consistantly heard an improvement going from a 5 dollar cable to a 200 dollar cable to a high end cable! Take a guess wich one sounded best?! Yes, the high end one. more bass, better extention, more detail. Comparing cheap cables with cheap cables doen't get you anywhere...the difference between reference series cables and standard cables is MUCH bigger then most people assume.

 The problem is that much people tried out cheap cable and swap it for another cheap one and don't hear any big difference and hence they presume the difference between a top end cable will be the same! You will be very mistaken.

 The better your system gets, the cheap cables squeeze the music...with top end cables you get the full extention the system is capable off. I was skeptic at first too but the difference some cables make is huge!

 If you need top end cables is up to you, but they do make a difference...stating that top end cables don't make a difference is the same as stating that your amp doesn't need any (clean) power!


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There are much better things to work on improving in your system than cables. Save your money for something that really makes a difference.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

LOL, without cables your system doesn't work!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The better the cable, the more music you'll hear!


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## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The problem is that much people tried out cheap cable and swap it for another cheap one and don't hear any big difference and hence they presume the difference between a top end cable will be the same! You will be very mistaken.

 The better your system gets, the cheap cables squeeze the music...with top end cables you get the full extention the system is capable off. I was skeptic at first too but the difference some cables make is huge!_

 

Yes, each manufacturer spends most of their time creating their reference cable, that's where the true value is. For their entry level cables they just slap some leftover materials together. Probably none of the creators have even bothered to listen to them.

 The manufacturer gets good reviews from their reference cable and when newbies read the review they think it's a good brand and assume their cheap cables as just as good, wrong! Tara Labs don't even make their cheap cables, they buy them from somewhere else and put their labels on them. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ead.php?t=4257


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Iron_Dreamer* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'll just say that I once had a time to try out a very well reviewed high-end power cord. After having it in my rig for a week or so, I thought for sure I heard improvement. I had my friend swap it back and forth with the $10 Quail cord I had been using previously. Turns out the cord I always picked as the better sounding one (and they definitely sounded different, for whatever reason) was the Quail. Since then I've stuck with these nice little cords. I'd much rather have another pair of headphones, source, amp, etc. to enjoy than an expensive cable._

 

I prefered 3 Volex in place of 3 Nordost Vishnu. Baffling! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think people mistakenly believe expensive buys excellence. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Comparing cheap cables with cheap cables doen't get you anywhere...the difference between reference series cables and standard cables is MUCH bigger then most people assume.

 The problem is that much people tried out cheap cable and swap it for another cheap one and don't hear any big difference and hence they presume the difference between a top end cable will be the same! You will be very mistaken.

 The better your system gets, the cheap cables squeeze the music...with top end cables you get the full extention the system is capable off._

 

I don't know about these assumptions. I'm guessing that most audiophiles have tried boutique enough wires in high end enough systems. As most audiophiles don't bother with message boards there's no way to confirm or deny this. I'll also hazard a guess that designers of high end preamps, speakers, etc don't put a lot of stock in the criticalness of cable.


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## SayNoToPistons

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 Your thread is just inviting yet another food-fight on this topic.

 What you'll see is a small minority (look at the polls, the cable nay-sayers *are* a minority here but LOUD), who will try to dominate the "discussion" (argument/fight) about this topic.

 They will be so vocal and are so militant on the topic and they always turn up, it may appear to you that they must be "right".

 The rest of us are too tired of fighting about so-called "issues" within audiophilia that really aren't controversial among the vast majority of audiohiles and haven't been for eons.

 We're also too busy enjoying out $100+ power cords to bother. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 Short answer from me (after sampling 25 different aftermarket cords)-- each one has its own sound (even your stock power cord has its own sound). Are $100 cords "worth" it? Depends on the cord, and the system it's in. Why would stick a $100 cord on a $300 source? Buy a better source instead._

 

One somewhat off-topic question. Will your wall socket and house electrical wiring matter also? Seems to me that there's no point in buying a nice power cable if it's going to be connected to mediocre sockets and wiring in my house


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## stevodotorg

I mean, you might as well line your home's internal power lines with gold and shields if you are going to spend that kind of money on a power cord, ya know?


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## SayNoToPistons

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevodotorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I mean, you might as well line your home's internal power lines with gold and shields if you are going to spend that kind of money on a power cord, ya know?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Well... There ARE higher grade power lines and "hospital-grade" wall sockets. I got one from my Uncle and it DOES have pretty good build quality. Doesn't look bad either, looks a little "professional" in orange.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I prefered 3 Volex in place of 3 Nordost Vishnu. Baffling! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I think people mistakenly believe expensive buys excellence. 

 I don't know about these assumptions. I'm guessing that most audiophiles have tried boutique enough wires in high end enough systems. As most audiophiles don't bother with message boards there's no way to confirm or deny this. I'll also hazard a guess that designers of high end preamps, speakers, etc don't put a lot of stock in the criticalness of cable. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No wonder, vishnu isn't a valhalla
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Vishnu isn't worth the money.

 Yes they do: when a high end system is being showed 10 out of 10 times they use the reference series of cables.period. Why, because it makes the system sound better. I've never seen/heard a system being showed without high end cables!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I only believe my ears and they tell me that one cable sounds considerable better then the other! 

 Modders replace cables in amps, hence to make them sound even better.

 Cables are underestimated. A cheap cable chokes the sound, a great cable lets it flow like real life. This is my consistant experience between cheap and good/high end cables and i heard a lot!

 The only thing that is variable here is our hearing.
 Another thing is that some cable makers "need" more money to make a good cable then some others. hence differences in price and quality. It's always a good thing to find the best cable in a certain pricerange, this ensures the highest price/performance ratio. Sometimes it can be one of the cheaper cables in a pricerange, but that doesn't mean there isn't a much better cable in an even higher pricerange...


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SayNoToPistons* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_One somewhat off-topic question. Will your wall socket and house electrical wiring matter also? Seems to me that there's no point in buying a nice power cable if it's going to be connected to mediocre sockets and wiring in my house 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Hence people buy audio grade brakers or powerconditioners...It really takes up here...alot of people do replace their brakerboards with high end grade cables and brakers and they all notice improvements, without exception!


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## Glod

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The lorad cables have some kind of dampening inside the cable so there is no noise; perceived more gain! Don't they use some kind of carbon to do that?_

 

AFAIK, the LoRad use a screen (foil) wrapped around the twisted conductors, and than a PVC jacket. Van den Hul _Mainstream_ cables, and some other brands, use carbon in their constructions as screens and sometimes also as conductors. 

 I have mixed impressions of the LoRad 2,5. Mine has a Wattgate IEC, and it adds quite a bit brightness and sounds upfront in comparison to a $5 cable. The sound gets better definition though, and integrity. Especially the CDP is sensitive to it; the MPX3 much less.


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## stevodotorg

it does get pretty ridiculous


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *stevodotorg* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it does get pretty ridiculous_

 

Untill you heard how a good system really can sound.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Glod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AFAIK, the LoRad use a screen (foil) wrapped around the twisted conductors, and than a PVC jacket. Van den Hul Mainstream cables, and some other brands, use carbon in their constructions as screens and sometimes also as conductors. 

 I have mixed impressions of the LoRad 2,5. Mine has a Wattgate IEC, and it adds quite a bit brightness and sounds upfront in comparison to a $5 cable. The sound gets better definition though, and integrity. Especially the CDP is sensitive to it; the MPX3 much less._

 


 Then your mpx3 has somewhat allready a good powerfilter internally...most cdp's benefit from good power. Most of em haven't as good powersections as a good amp has, wich has most of the time some kind of filtering in there.


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## Black Stuart

Eyeteeth got it right,

 I used the stock power cord that came with the Bada PH12 h/amp, I changed it for a homebrew and it turned a so-so performance (why did I waste my money buying this) into a very, very god h/amp. Why the hell don't manufacturers wake up and smell the coffee!

 It changed my whole stance on cables - I was the classic skeptic. I don't have time for belief systems of any kind, it was an actual experience that turned me around.

 I have since made new power cords using the very best mil. spec. wire - 20AWG stranded silver plated copper. The silver and the plating techniques used meet the highest spec. The copper is pure soft annealed - this is the way to go.

 Needless to say the Bada sounds superb now. I also use it with I/Cs made from mil. spec. solid core silver plated wire.

 For me this is the end of the road - I've arrived. I would love to put up this homebrew design against some of this Nordost Valhalla - some people might get cardiac arrest!

 Markl is right, there are some who probably would rather die than admit that power cords make a difference, they do.

 I say that the new battle Markl is to convince those who spend lots of money on commercial power cords - to make their own. Are you up for the challenge?

 I'll send you a power cord to which you fix/solder your own connectors, because I live in Europe, where we use Shukos. It's a braided design, very simple - let me know.

 Stuart


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## bhd812

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The lorad cables have some kind of dampening inside the cable so there is no noise; perceived more gain! Don't they use some kind of carbon to do that?_

 

not sure, all I know is I have a boat load of this stuff..

 I like it..


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## bhd812

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Glod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_AFAIK, the LoRad use a screen (foil) wrapped around the twisted conductors, and than a PVC jacket. Van den Hul Mainstream cables, and some other brands, use carbon in their constructions as screens and sometimes also as conductors. 

 I have mixed impressions of the LoRad 2,5. Mine has a Wattgate IEC, and it adds quite a bit brightness and sounds upfront in comparison to a $5 cable. The sound gets better definition though, and integrity. Especially the CDP is sensitive to it; the MPX3 much less._

 

I have tried 6 different types of connectors on my Supra cable, soon I am going to try some Walker sst on the insides of the iec/plugs themselves.

 The worest connectors I tried with these cables are Wattgate stuff, throws everything off sonicly to most different gear its on. right now I am using a Schurter 4781 iec with a marnico 5266 plug..best results so far on my power amps and my g08, but the b52 sounds...well not sure yet.

 I will build some more cables after the new year using some hosp grade Marnico plugs, I also will be polishing the connector pins and was playing with the idea of plating..but thats far off. like I said I have somuch of this cable i can play with it till i am blue in the face. when i get bored with them or just need money for more toys I will sell some at my cost..this is why I dont want to get into any high priced iec/plugs now.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Eyeteeth got it right,

 I used the stock power cord that came with the Bada PH12 h/amp, I changed it for a homebrew and it turned a so-so performance (why did I waste my money buying this) into a very, very god h/amp. Why the hell don't manufacturers wake up and smell the coffee!

 It changed my whole stance on cables - I was the classic skeptic. I don't have time for belief systems of any kind, it was an actual experience that turned me around.

 I have since made new power cords using the very best mil. spec. wire - 20AWG stranded silver plated copper. The silver and the plating techniques used meet the highest spec. The copper is pure soft annealed - this is the way to go.

 Needless to say the Bada sounds superb now. I also use it with I/Cs made from mil. spec. solid core silver plated wire.

 For me this is the end of the road - I've arrived. I would love to put up this homebrew design against some of this Nordost Valhalla - some people might get cardiac arrest!

 Markl is right, there are some who probably would rather die than admit that power cords make a difference, they do.

 I say that the new battle Markl is to convince those who spend lots of money on commercial power cords - to make their own. Are you up for the challenge?

 I'll send you a power cord to which you fix/solder your own connectors, because I live in Europe, where we use Shukos. It's a braided design, very simple - let me know.

 Stuart_

 

Stuart, the valhalla is very good, don't get mistaken, way better then most other cables available! at any price. Guess what Nordost is using: same stuff as you do: silverplated pure copper in a specific ratio.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Alot of people tried to coppy the nordost cables but never succeeded; they never sounded as good as the originals.

 I might be interested in a test: i made my own high end cable with rhodium plugs. Wanna know if your millitary spec is as good as mine or even better.

 I am always in for better sound...for the cheap.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll send you a pm about your cables.


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No wonder, vishnu isn't a valhalla
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Vishnu isn't worth the money.

 Yes they do: when a high end system is being showed 10 out of 10 times they use the reference series of cables.period. Why, because it makes the system sound better. I've never seen/heard a system being showed without high end cables!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I only believe my ears and they tell me that one cable sounds considerable better then the other!_

 

HIFI shops are commercial enterprises in the business of making a profit, of course they'll always have whopping wire on their gear....unless you have a friend who works in one and it's a slow mid-week afternoon. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...14&postcount=9

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The last high end system I listened to was Vandersteen Quatro loudspeaker, Macintosh preamp + mono blocks and Esoteric UX-3 Universal (I like listening to lots of gear). My friend works in the store; to satisfy my curiousity he replaced the very expensive cabling (Valhalla) with the cheapest on hand (bulk Cardas $10 per foot) without telling me which was which (it was a slow mid-week afternoon) and the difference was entirely uncertain._

 

The beauty of having a friend in the business is you get an opinion that can be quite different from that offered to customers.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HIFI shops are commercial enterprises in the business of making a profit, of course they'll always have whopping wire on their gear....unless you have a friend who works in one and it's a slow mid-week afternoon. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...14&postcount=9



 The beauty of having a friend in the business is you get an opinion that can be quite different from that offered to customers._

 

Off course. But fact is that some cables sound much better then others. Don't forget that the high end systems are the window for the audio shop and they really wanna do make em sound best as it can!

 I've done my share of listening...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Loads of really high end systems. (amps going up to 50000 or more, cdplayers of 20000+)

 By the way, valhalla's doesn't sound always good on any system! I recall a review where somebody rated the valhalla 5 out of 10 because he couldn't get it to sound right in his system! In his case the valkyrja's sounded much better!

 Nordost cables don't compensate for flaws in the system, they are very, very neutral yet sounding natural and musical(reference series). So, not the best cable in every system. Once you have a balanced system, the nordost cables is the missing link.

 TIP: do the swap again on your own well known system and i'll bet you'll hear even a bigger difference (either for the good or worse).


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## adhoc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL, without cables your system doesn't work!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The better the cable, the more music you'll hear!_

 

No, but that's the problem - _power cables carry no music_. Unless they're acting as a antennae for RFI, you cannot improve wall AC. Or 'tune' wall AC like you can (purportedly) do with interconnects.

 IMO as long as the gauge is generous, the connectors secure and the shielding sufficient, anything else is just the placebo effect at work. I am undecided as to the use of filters, though I can see how adding one might help in theory. 

 I do not, however, believe that adding a filter can 'blunt' transients or make the sound less 'exciting' or 'remove some top end' - a filter can take away only what is not there. That and that the aforementioned descriptions seem more suited to a dissertation on DACs and amplification (when applicable) rather than the power supply, no? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Do note though that quite a bit of 'stock equipment' doesn't fit the previous 3 criteria!


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adhoc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, but that's the problem - power cables carry no music. Unless they're acting as a antennae for RFI, you cannot improve wall AC. Or 'tune' wall AC like you can (purportedly) do with interconnects.

 IMO as long as the gauge is generous, the connectors secure and the shielding sufficient, anything else is just the placebo effect at work. 

 Do note though that quite a bit of 'stock equipment' doesn't fit the previous 3 criteria!_

 

Without power the component doesn't work and there will be no music. It's like trying to drive a car without any gas.


*1)* The gauge makes a huge difference. Thick cable makes music sound thick and slow, thin cable makes it sound thin, fast and detailed.
*2)* With more shielding the background gets blacker with more low-level resolution.
*3)* Connectors make it edgy and bright, hardwiring is the way to go. 
*4) *With lower dielectric it sounds smoother with more transparency and bigger soundstage. Polished conductor surface does the same.
*5) *Deeper silver plating gives greater dynamics.

 You can build a cheap cable for steps 1-3 above, but steps 4-5 are very hard to do, that's why I buy Valhalla.


 A 60Hz sine wave isn't the most effective way to feed the power supply, you need to further manipulate it with MultiWaves (PS Audio). I have gone from 60Hz -> 90Hz -> MWave1 -> MWave4 and each step made the same difference as a power cord upgrade. I found that MWave4 + Valhalla + Toroidal transformer is a perfect match.

 Without the smoothness from Valhalla it isn't possible to listen to my system, it's pretty obvious from my blind test.


----------



## adhoc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_*1)* The gauge makes a huge difference. Thick cable makes music sound thick and slow, thin cable makes it sound thin, fast and detailed.
*2)* With more shielding the background gets blacker with more low-level resolution.
*3)* Connectors make it edgy and bright, hardwiring is the way to go. 
*4) *With lower dielectric it sounds smoother with more transparency and bigger soundstage. Polished conductor surface does the same.
*5) *Deeper silver plating gives greater dynamics.

 You can build a cheap cable for steps 1-3 above, but steps 4-5 are very hard to do, that's why I buy Valhalla.


 A 60Hz sine wave isn't the most effective way to feed the power supply, you need to further manipulate it with MultiWaves (PS Audio). I have gone from 60Hz -> 90Hz -> MWave1 -> MWave4 and each step made the same difference as a power cord upgrade. I found that MWave4 + Valhalla + Toroidal transformer is a perfect match.

 Without the smoothness from Valhalla it isn't possible to listen to my system, it's pretty obvious from my blind test._

 

But how? Why? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure we're all curious to know. I mean, making nice, _appealing-sounding_ parallels like those in 1) - 5) help no one and prove nothing.


----------



## Glod

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bhd812* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_..."The worest connectors I tried with these cables are Wattgate stuff, throws everything off sonicly to most different gear its on."..._

 






 OK - Who knows, perhaps my impressions would have been different with other connectors.


----------



## Glod

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Then your mpx3 has somewhat allready a good powerfilter internally...most cdp's benefit from good power. Most of em haven't as good powersections as a good amp has, wich has most of the time some kind of filtering in there._

 

That is my conclusion too. I should add I use a filtered power strip as well (HMS Energia).


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adhoc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But how? Why? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'm sure we're all curious to know. I mean, making nice, appealing-sounding parallels like those in 1) - 5) help no one and prove nothing._

 

Adhoc:

 passive filters filter frequencies starting from 1khz and above and yes, these filters do filter away some of the extreem highs. When i put my amp in the filter, i loose that sparkling in the extreem highs the reference series are famous for...if i put it in, the upper sparkle is gone. I might need a better one an active powerfilter but these are much more expensive. The filter does more good then it does bad at the moment but it is sad i lost a bit of that amazing extreme high sparkle.

 I did my own test, as i said before and while the cables gt more expensive and the materials also more expensive, the more detail and extension i could hear just from switching powercords.

 I used the same setup and only changed the powercords of the amp...same results all over, did it couple of times to make it sure...my own made high end cable was better then the commercially bought silver plated powercable and the cheap pc plug is crap!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Especially when i removed the shielding the own made cable began to shine and sounded clear, sparkling with the most detail.

 The better the power is distributed, the better and more efficient every component can work in an amp...hence improvement in sound.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Glod* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 OK - Who knows, perhaps my impressions would have been different with other connectors._

 

Starnge indeed, alot of people like wattgate plugs. I myself use rhodium or gold plated high end grade furutech plugs!


----------



## SayNoToPistons

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hence people buy audio grade brakers or powerconditioners...It really takes up here...alot of people do replace their brakerboards with high end grade cables and brakers and they all notice improvements, without exception!_

 

What are these "audio grade brakers"? I tried searching on google but didn't have much luck. So high quality wall sockets wouldn't matter when i'm using a power conditioner?


----------



## diogenes

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I prefered 3 Volex in place of 3 Nordost Vishnu. Baffling! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I think people mistakenly believe expensive buys excellence. 
_

 

I am shocked: Veblen goods in the audio market.


----------



## adhoc

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *SayNoToPistons* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What are these "audio grade brakers"? I tried searching on google but didn't have much luck. So high quality wall sockets wouldn't matter when i'm using a power conditioner?_

 

my educated guess was that he was referring to surge suppressor/circuit breaker type equipment.


----------



## Uncle Erik

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *adhoc* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_my educated guess was that he was referring to surge suppressor/circuit breaker type equipment._

 

I thought the same thing. I ran a few searches for audiophile grade circuit breakers and got nothing. I would think a boutique circuit breaker would have a hell of a time passing muster with real electricians, not to mention the city building inspector.

 Also, how do these power cords work? I've measured a good number of them, and they all, regardless of price, measure the same as the wall socket. Further, all AC must pass through the rig's power supply, yet there are countless variations on power supplies and components used. How does a power cord manufacturer take into account all of the variations? For example, what if there's an aluminum lead on a diode that negates all the effects of the power cord? And if you argue that plating can affect the sound, the leads of the internal components must make a similar contribution, right? How do you account for all of the variables?


----------



## imported_Matt_Carter

Yep, I'd look no further then Eichmann's eXpress Power. Worth every penny and then some.


----------



## tourmaline

Nope, breaker circuits: these are only 220/230 volts versions:






 and 






 People replace the old breaker circuits with these and it hold an audiograde fuse as well! Lots of people are doing it actually.

 They recable the whole thing with new high end cables and these boards, including new fuse...

 AHP klangmodule 3.

 I presume they have stuff like that for 110 volts as well?(not from AHP, though)


----------



## KTL

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 People replace the old breaker circuits with these and it hold an audiograde fuse as well! Lots of people are doing it actually.

 They recable the whole thing with new high end cables and these boards, including new fuse...

 AHP klangmodule 3.

 I presume they have stuff like that for 110 volts as well?(not from AHP, though)_

 

I've done this,using Klangmodule 3 and Audio Agile powerwires.
 No doubt it was worth it,now i'm also going to try a Psaudio powerplant premier to see if that can take it up another level.


----------



## Peter433

I use £40 mains cables for my equitment (PC, 24" Dell HD Monitor) and theyre good enough for me, i will not spend £200 on a cable when my amp was only £300 there is just no point, instead of buying a new mains cable id buy a new decent mains block then youll be upgrading pretty much all your wires


----------



## kontai69

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bhd812* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
*The worest connectors I tried with these cables are Wattgate stuff*, throws everything off sonicly to most different gear its on. *right now I am using a Schurter 4781 iec with a marnico 5266 plug*..best results so far on my power amps and my g08, but the b52 sounds...well not sure yet._

 

Interesting. As you may know, Marinco and Wattgate plugs are essentially the same. Marinco makes high-end "audiophile" versions of their plugs for Kimber Kable under the "Wattgate" brand. I've owned them both and they look almost identical. However, the Wattgates have better finished plug blades, stainless steel screws, and use higher quality plastic bodies compared to their Marinco counterparts.


----------



## Patrick82

I couldn't hear a difference between Marinco and Wattgate, if I had to guess there was a little more bass, but I wasn't sure.


----------



## Sovkiller

Do we really need another believers versus non beleivers thread??? Why not using the search button, you can literally find at least 50 threads about this controversial topic, even reviews and comparisons, people stating all the opposite, etc...

 This topic has been discussed here extensivelly, and you will never get a consensus, nor an definitive answer on it, it is far better to find out and read, or try them for yourself, and avoid asking honestly.....


----------



## imported_Matt_Carter

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Do we really need another believers versus non beleivers thread???_

 

More like knower’s versus posers.


----------



## aestuo

I still haven't heard anything about the electronic principles behind after-market power cables. I'm new to audio and honestly curious, because it seems insane to claim an improvement - doesn't the electricity travel miles through cheap aluminum cabling to get to your house? Doesn't it go through cheap copper wire inside your walls? And doesn't it snake through thin copper wiring once it's in your device and being rectified and regulated? And if your equiptment has ICs, chips, circuit boards, well...

 What's the rationale?


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aestuo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I still haven't heard anything about the electronic principles behind after-market power cables. I'm new to audio and honestly curious, because it seems insane to claim an improvement - doesn't the electricity travel miles through cheap aluminum cabling to get to your house? Doesn't it go through cheap copper wire inside your walls? And doesn't it snake through thin copper wiring once it's in your device and being rectified and regulated? And if your equiptment has ICs, chips, circuit boards, well...

 What's the rationale?_

 

The voltage is boosted up when traveling those miles through thick cables. The voltage is stepped down before reaching your system. So the wiring in your apartment would matter the most. If it's 10 meters then a couple extra meters is going to make a difference, especially since the power cord from the wall to the component is out in the open and more susceptible to external noise. 
 The closer the power cord is to the gear the bigger the problem with EMI will become, since it's plugged into the back of the component you don't have a choice, you need to put shielding around the cable.

 Power supply manipulation through coloration is another thing. I have found that all power cords color the sound, most of them to the worse. It just depends on what flavor you like. If you like the edgy and cold flavor, then go for a cheap stock cord. If you like bass, speed and dynamics, Nordost Valhalla is a great ride. See picture of me riding the Valhalla, you see this cable is not for sissy girl.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *aestuo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I still haven't heard anything about the electronic principles behind after-market power cables. I'm new to audio and honestly curious, because it seems insane to claim an improvement - doesn't the electricity travel miles through cheap aluminum cabling to get to your house? Doesn't it go through cheap copper wire inside your walls? And doesn't it snake through thin copper wiring once it's in your device and being rectified and regulated? And if your equiptment has ICs, chips, circuit boards, well...

 What's the rationale?_

 

Probably none, the same as in many audio other "myths" or "believes" (as cables, burn in, tweaks, isolation, name brands, etc...) just that someone once maybe stated that he (or she) heard a difference, and a bunch of idiots around to avoid being called cloth ears accepted, and agree on that, and from that point on, a voodoo, mythology, or whatever is evolved, later on some geniuses put some very good wording, and nice phrases on top, mixed with some snake oil, and marketing, and bingo you have an audiophile rationale!!!! Hearing is believing, absolutelly a double blind test, ABX is on order... 


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The voltage is boosted up when traveling those miles through thick cables. The voltage is stepped down before reaching your system. So the wiring in your apartment would matter the most. If it's 10 meters then a couple extra meters is going to make a difference, especially since the power cord from the wall to the component is out in the open and more susceptible to external noise. 
 The closer the power cord is to the gear the bigger the problem with EMI will become, since it's plugged into the back of the component you don't have a choice, you need to put shielding around the cable.

 Power supply manipulation through coloration is another thing. I have found that all power cords color the sound, most of them to the worse. It just depends on what flavor you like. If you like the edgy and cold flavor, then go for a cheap stock cord. If like bass, speed and dynamics, Valhalla is a great ride._

 

The last step down trasnformer is sometimes a block away from your home or more, so it is not just 10 meters, also if you live in a building in NYC, the building alone will run more than 100 meters of rusty bare cheap cooper cable inside, so it is sometimes hundreds of meters. Also AFAIK the step up or down will not improve any quality in the AC power just boost and trim it, so there is absolutelly nothing to condition the AC power before getting into your system unless you use a power conditioner, but in that case I do agree that a power cord *may* improve something, otherwise is a waste of time and money IMHO...


----------



## imported_Matt_Carter

Why is this subject so debated? 
 Just because it doesn’t make logical sense to you does not mean its "Snake oil". 
 This is all just plain blasphemy… If you’re blind, you’re not going to convince me there’s no color purple. And if for what ever reason you insist to deny the fact, just keep your mouth shut and let it be, because they're an extremely useful tool that a lot of people can get a lot out of.


----------



## skyline889

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_More like knower’s versus posers._

 

It's posts like these that turn these threads into flame wars, and why they are "so debated". 

 On a mid-fi to high end system (I.e.-$3000+), a good power cable can make a difference, more so if the system is being fed by a power conditioner. On a $1k rig however, being fed directly through the wall outlet, I wouldn't bother with anything more than something like the Signal Cable Magic or the PS Audio Punch. I personally wouldn't invest more money in cables than my equipment like Patrick82, but that's just my personal opinion.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why is this subject so debated? 
 Just because it doesn’t make logical sense to you does not mean its "Snake oil". 
 This is all just plain blasphemy… If you’re blind, you’re not going to convince me there’s no color purple. And if for what ever reason you insist to deny the fact, just keep your mouth shut and let it be, because they're an extremely useful tool that a lot of people get a lot out of. 

 It’s clear.
 They’re here.
 They make a difference. 
 Get over it. 

 It’s clear.
 They’re here.
 They make a difference. 
 Get over it._

 


 First nobbody in this hobby is actually blind, otherwise why they are here? Second it is not just a matter of saying that you hear one thing and everybody will believe it, specially while another group, even more numberous claim all the opposite, and at the last end, yes you need to prove what you are claiming if it is not supported by any science in order for others to beleive...in this case it is not...till now...prove it and everybody will shut up for life!!!!

 BTW I'm not an skeptic, I beleive, have my decent power cords, but period will not invest a penny more on them...unless I have a perfect AC at the outlet, not my case at all...


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_First nobbody in this hobby is actually blind, otherwise why they are here? Second it is not just a matter of saying that you hear one thing and everybody will believe it, specially while another group, even more numberous claim all the opposite, and at the last end, yes you need to prove what you are claiming if it is not supported by any science in order for others to beleive...in this case it is not...till now...prove it and everybody will shut up for life!!!!

 BTW I'm not an skeptic, I beleive, have my decent power cords, but period will not invest a penny more on them...unless I have a perfect AC at the outlet, not my case at all..._

 

Why don't you try a good powerplant, so you have your own regulated power?!


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why don't you try a good powerplant, so you have your own regulated power?!_

 

Those tend to be expensive, but I'd rather spend in a more beefy PSU instead, and honestly if you ask me, a good PSU is able to take any of the more current anomalies from the AC side, otherwise keep on working on it, as it is not good enough!!! More or bigger caps!!!! Bigger tranny!!! Better regulation!!! is on order in that case...


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those tend to be expensive, but I'd rather spend in a more beefy PSU instead, and honestly if you ask me, a good PSU is able to take any of the more current anomalies from the AC side, otherwise keep on working on it, as it is not good enough!!! More or bigger caps!!!! Bigger tranny!!! Better regulation!!! is on order in that case..._

 

Strangely enough that's what my local audio-store also said to me. They are not too fond of powerfilters, instead they rather would mod the powersection.

 Any amp has some kind of regulation build in.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Those tend to be expensive, but I'd rather spend in a more beefy PSU instead, and honestly if you ask me, a good PSU is able to take any of the more current anomalies from the AC side, otherwise keep on working on it, as it is not good enough!!! More or bigger caps!!!! Bigger tranny!!! Better regulation!!! is on order in that case..._

 

My Krell KAV-500i power amp weighs 25kg and benefited the most from power conditioning and power cords. Once it had proper power conditioning the extra size was a disadvantage, it sounded muddier than neutral. Small neutral gear with power conditioning is the way to go.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My Krell KAV-500i power amp weighs 25kg and benefited the most from power conditioning and power cords. Once it had proper power conditioning the extra size was a disadvantage, it sounded muddier than neutral. Small neutral gear with power conditioning is the way to go._

 

So in other words what you are saying is that Krell designed wrong the PSU of their amp, and to make it big is a flaw in their design...Ok Bravo!!! Next please...


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So in other words what you are saying is that Krell designed wrong the PSU of their amp, and to make it big is a flaw in their design...Ok Bravo!!! Next please...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

All PSUs have a flaw, they perform best with clean power. It's like saying humans have a flaw when they can't drink gasoline instead of water.

*Ego man:* _Let's have a toast._
*Truth boy:* _But it's gasoline!_
*Ego man:* _Humans can drink anything, otherwise they have a big flaw in their design.
_*Truth boy:* _But..._
*Ego man:* _No buts! Now drink up!!_


----------



## bhd812

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All PSUs have a flaw, they perform best with clean power. It's like saying humans have a flaw when they can't drink gasoline instead of water.

*Ego man:* Let's have a toast.
*Truth boy:* But it's gasoline!
*Ego man:* Humans can drink anything, otherwise they have a big flaw in their design.
*Truth boy:* But...
*Ego man:* No buts! Now drink up!!_

 

a psu that has been designed and implented perfectly will not have a sonic affect from anything coming in (a/c) wise. The hr-2/xp-7 power supply is one of these where I dont hear no difference in anything power, and I am a power believer.


----------



## nspindel

How is it that plugging a $1000 power cord can make a difference when it's really only 6 feet of a very long power cable - from the receptacle, to your breaker panel, to the street, to the transformer, to the substation, to the.... You're plugging a $1000 power cord into a receptacle that's powered by 10 cents/foot ROMEX. Come on people, if you have nothing better to do with your money, feed starving children in Africa!

 I just bought a DAC1 from a dealer whose main business is supplying high-end recording studios with equipment costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was at his place of business and saw the equipment and saw the photos of him arm-in-arm with Alan Parsons and others, so I know he's not just talking hype. He had a very simple comment - music studios use $20 cables. That's what's creating the recording you're listening to, somehow thinking it'll sound "better" if you spend the equivalent of the GDP of small countries for a wire.

 I'm not arguing against all high-end cables, mind you. The cheepie red/whites that come in the little plastic baggie when you buy a cd player are wrought with interference, and decent interconnect cables are of course necessary to stop degredation of the signal.

 But $1000 for a power cord? It's not like there's a generator behind the wall folks, that electricity travels a LONG way over REALLY CHEAP COPPER before it gets to the voodoo cable....


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All PSUs have a flaw, they perform best with clean power. It's like saying humans have a flaw when they can't drink gasoline instead of water._

 

To "drink" bad AC is a fact that the designers must face while designing a PSU, indeed mostly the AC is polluted all the time, even more at their labs, to work in the worst conditions, is part of the design, or at least considering "normal conditions". Nobody design for an ideal condition, absolutelly nobody, as there is no ideal conditions in normal life...Also I don't know yet of any equipment (or at least they are not not so frequent) that works with AC (maybe tube filament, even though modern designers use DC), mainly all of them convert to DC, and what the audio amp, or device see, is the DC side of the PSU, who cares what is at the AC side, of course talking of a good designed PSU...

 It is like filling up a gas tank in a car from two different diameter hoses from the same pump, with the same kind of gas, being the blue hose bigger than the red, and stated later on that tank filled by the blue hose which is bigger make the car perform better, what the car actually see is how much gas is in the tank, and how good that gas is, not which hose fill it...that is simply stupid... 

 BTW smartass there ceratin tolerances in any design, in which from that point on, there is *absolutelly no benefit to speak off in going further*...and I think that Krell engineers know far better than you, how to manage their PSUs, and their tolerances...please!!!!


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It is like filling up a gas tank in a car from two different diameter hoses from the same pump, with the same kind of gas, being the blue hose bigger than the red, and stated later on that tank filled by the blue hose which is bigger make the car perform better, what the car actually see is how much gas is in the tank, and how good that gas is, not which hose fill it...that is simply stupid..._

 

Ok, so you are saying if you cut the power the PSU should still be working because the tank is filled? I see where you are coming from now.

 Edit: I used to think that way with the P300 Power Plant, I thought it was like a battery that stored power and was outputting into my components, I chose cheap shielded cables between wall and both Power Plants, that was a huge mistake and I regret it. When I changed the Statements into Valhallas it made one of the biggest improvements I ever heard.

 The reason why I made that conclusion was because I didn't have enough money for more Valhalla at that time. If I did, I would have been more open-minded and tried it first.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nspindel* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How is it that plugging a $1000 power cord can make a difference when it's really only 6 feet of a very long power cable - from the receptacle, to your breaker panel, to the street, to the transformer, to the substation, to the.... You're plugging a $1000 power cord into a receptacle that's powered by 10 cents/foot ROMEX. Come on people, if you have nothing better to do with your money, feed starving children in Africa!

 I just bought a DAC1 from a dealer whose main business is supplying high-end recording studios with equipment costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was at his place of business and saw the equipment and saw the photos of him arm-in-arm with Alan Parsons and others, so I know he's not just talking hype. He had a very simple comment - music studios use $20 cables. That's what's creating the recording you're listening to, somehow thinking it'll sound "better" if you spend the equivalent of the GDP of small countries for a wire.

 I'm not arguing against all high-end cables, mind you. The cheepie red/whites that come in the little plastic baggie when you buy a cd player are wrought with interference, and decent interconnect cables are of course necessary to stop degredation of the signal.

 But $1000 for a power cord? It's not like there's a generator behind the wall folks, that electricity travels a LONG way over REALLY CHEAP COPPER before it gets to the voodoo cable...._

 

We have never heard these arguments before. They are entirely new. They have never been responded to before. You have come up with something never before evaluated or considered by those who have _actually listened _to aftermarket power cords, and the believers in such cords have no response. Hence, the debate is over. Power cords do not and cannot make a difference. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 P.S. Seriously, if you do a search on this forum and elsewhere, you will find various responses and explanations to the "100 miles of krappy wire from the power plant to your house" argument, and the "music studios use krap so you should too" argument, etc. And BTW, if my music sounds good or bad to my ears vis-a-vis a comparative setup, that's what matters to me. I don't listen based on how what _someone else _says it should or should not sound.


----------



## imported_Matt_Carter

All power cords hold a resistance; restricting, and controlling the flow of electrons. A good Power cord can contribute to a uniform flow, and stable refresh, giving a clean smooth presentation, acting somewhat like a buffer.
 Electricity too carries a frequency pipe which can be tuned by an impedance control, which can be indirectly influential to a corresponding bandwidth.






 something like that.


 Congratulations *Patrick82* you have officially made it into my book of non-douchebags.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ok, so you are saying if you cut the power the PSU should still be working because the tank is filled? I see where you are coming from now.

 Edit: I used to think that way with the P300 Power Plant, I thought it was like a battery that stored power and was outputting into my components, I chose cheap shielded cables between wall and both Power Plants, that was a huge mistake and I regret it. When I changed the Statements into Valhallas it made one of the biggest improvements I ever heard._

 

You are right, some PSUs are able to power for few seconds after the power is cut, (also some PSUs are used to feed battery packs inside some equipment) also if you cut the feed in a car completelly, the car will eventually stop as well once the gas is over...I fill my tank each week as well....of course that was used for comparison/example, just to illustrate, and not to be taken textually....

 About the rest, well, *unfortunatelly we all know about that* you have been praising Valhalla cables for years, I'm even wondering what they hell they are waiting to include you in their payroll???...


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All power cords hold a resistance; restricting, and controlling the flow of electrons. A good Power cord can contribute to a uniform flow, and stable refresh, giving a clean smooth presentation, acting somewhat like a buffer._

 

All PSUs has capacitors banks inside, huge capacitors, that act like a buffer or an small storage for demands in the peaks, once those are fully charge, and that is one of their purpose, no need of that so uniform flow to keep the unit working properly, most of the times the PSUs are overdesigned, and the unit never works at full potencial neither...a good PSU is more than enough...but I agree that a crappy cable will not help in any way...but no need of spend $200.00 in a power cord neither...Any hospital grade shielded, 12-14awg is more than enough to be used in any amp or source...cost? $15.00 bucks...enough!!!


----------



## imported_Matt_Carter

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_All PSUs has capacitors banks inside, huge capacitors, that act like a buffer or an small storage for demands in the peaks, once those are fully charge, and that is one of their purpose, no need of that so uniform flow to keep the unit working properly, most of the times the PSUs are overdesigned, and the unit never works at full potencial neither...a good PSU is more than enough...but I agree that a crappy cable will not help in any way...but no need of spend $200.00 in a power cord neither...Any hospital grade shielded, 12-14awg is more than enough to be used in any amp or source...cost? $15.00 bucks...enough!!!_

 

Well I consider my power cord splurging more then justified. The Eichmann express as you can see is not just a power cord. I never opened the tumor. But my guess is that it's a little mini, super conditioner type thingy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 The sound it produces is crystal clear, controlled and technical. It does absolute wonders for my VDA. And yes the siltech is a bit over the top. But it can make the most sterile, hard, harsh, solid amp; sound as warm, smooth and silky as any tube. 
 This cord was absolutely necessary with my GS-1. And I’m keeping it with my rudi... because with the rudi’s super low latent attack/decay; it’s processing can be a bit to fast and ridged for a DAC (absolutely no fault of the rudi, it’s truly a flawless amp). 

 IMO what I get out of the Siltech is well worth the $400 I paid, and the Eichmann is total steal. So no I can not agree with you that people who spend over $200 are as crazy dumb as you claim.

 There's tons of audiophile gear that defeats all logic. Thought a person of your experience would be well aware and accepting of these phenomena.


----------



## Patrick82

This Greek audiophile has spent €230 000 ($305 000) on his system and he says power is 50% of the sound.

*Audiophile:* _Electricity is 50% of the sound, for me. You know that, everybody know that._


 For some reason skeptics want to ignore the truth, I guess it makes them feel better about themselves that after they buy better gear they don't need to start upgrading power conditioners and cables too. They just make themselves believe the more the gear costs the less important power is, so they skip it completely. It ends up with them wasting thousands of dollars and get crappy sound because of their false belief that they can just plug the system in with crappy cables. Who's having the placebo here?


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This Greek audiophile has spent €230 000 ($305 000) on his system and he says power is 50% of the sound.

*Audiophile:* Electricity is 50% of the sound, for me. You know that, everybody know that.


 For some reason skeptics want to ignore the truth, I guess it makes them feel better about themselves that after they buy better gear they don't need to start upgrading power conditioners and cables too. They just make themselves believe the more the gear costs the less important power is, so they skip it completely. It ends up with them wasting thousands of dollars and get crappy sound because of their false belief that they can just plug the system in with crappy cables. Who's having the placebo here?_

 

They have to experience it themselves. The problem is that they are so convinced of their own ignorance that they never gonna try good cables.

 In this way it's kinda a circle they never get out.

 I had an open mind, tried it and have the powercables and IC's i want and these did more then i expected in the first place. Totally happy and i know now how much a difference cables make.

 I have more of the thing i really like: MUSIC!


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But it can make the most sterile, hard, harsh, solid amp; sound as warm, smooth and as silky as the tubbiest tube._

 

That's what power conditioning does, it removes the edginess and gives a blacker background so you can hear beats in between beats. When the component is plugged into the wall all you hear is a big block or transients jammed together, but with proper power you hear each transient separately.

 PS Audio MultiWaveII has a TubeWave setting which made it sound smoother and more detailed than Mullard tubes. Having a too fat power cord also makes it smooth like tubes, but both of them sacrifice some detail.

 With my first power cord (Nordost Vishnu) I was expecting more detail and transparency based on what I read in reviews, but how I described the sound was "silky smooth". Later I figured out I was hearing the roll-off from 320kbps mp3. Without these cables I couldn't hear a difference between mp3 and WAV.
 Here is my first impression: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=119282


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They have to experience it themselves. The problem is that they are so convinced of their own ignorance that they never gonna try good cables.

 In this way it's kinda a circle they never get out._

 

Yes, it's like a disease, but can it be cured? Someone should break into the skeptics' homes and replace the cable without them seeing it, that way they aren't biased when they listen to their system the next time. If they suddenly notice the sound is improved you have made him a believer!

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I had an open mind, tried it and have the powercables and IC's i want and these did more then i expected in the first place. Totally happy and i know now how much a difference cables make._

 

Same with me. With every Valhalla I added to my system I kept expecting more and more but the improvement was still bigger than I expected!


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well I consider my power cord splurging more then justified. The Eichmann express as you can see is not just a power cord. I never opened the tumor. But my guess is that it's a little mini, super conditioner type thingy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The sound it produces is crystal clear, controlled and technical. It does absolute wonders for my VDA. And yes the siltech is a bit over the top. But it can make the most sterile, hard, harsh, solid amp; sound as warm, smooth and silky as any tube. 
 This cord was absolutely necessary with my GS-1. And I’m keeping it with my rudi... because with the rudi’s super low latent attack/decay; it’s processing can be a bit to fast and ridged for a DAC (absolutely no fault of the rudi, it’s truly a flawless amp). 

 IMO what I get out of the Siltech is well worth the $400 I paid, and the Eichmann is total steal. So no I can not agree with you that people who spend over $200 are as crazy dumb as you claim.

 There's tons of audiophile gear that defeats all logic. Thought a person of your experience would be well aware and accepting of these phenomena._

 

Matt I never stated that persons who spend money in power cords are dumb, the believe in one thing and follow it, period, they are convinced of that. Also if you have the money to be spent in that, and feel satisfied spending it like that, good for you, in my case with $400.00 to spend, the last thing I would spend in, will be in a power cord, honestly, there are other parts of the system that will benefit more from a $400.00 investment than a power cord IMO.....

 Even though I would like to see these that claim to hear the differences, in a trully double blind test, but I have nothing against them.....but I think that this will never happen, in all tests we had conducted here in the past, good or bad, for some reason the ones who claim hear those differences, never signed up to be in...Afraid of fail??? Who knows...


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This Greek audiophile has spent €230 000 ($305 000) on his system and he says power is 50% of the sound.

*Audiophile:* Electricity is 50% of the sound, for me. You know that, everybody know that._

 

And I agree 100% on that statement, even more I do beleive that is more than 50%, but I do not agree that 6' of a power cord will make the power better at all....how???


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_double blind test_

 






 The forbidden word. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And I agree 100% on that statement, even more I do beleive that is more than 50%, but I do not agree that 6' of a power cord will make the power better at all....how???_

 

Nobody knows how it works, there are only theories. The best way is to just listen to as many cables as possible without any bias. Eventually you will know what each variable does to the sound. I have cut my Valhalla cables to pieces so I can understand a little bit more why they sound the way they do.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Matt I never stated that persons who spend money in power cords are dumb, the believe in one thing and follow it, period, they are convinced of that. Also if you have the money to be spent in that, and feel satisfied spending it like that, good for you, in my case with $400.00 to spend, the last thing I would spend in, will be in a power cord, honestly, there are other parts of the system that will benefit more from a $400.00 investment than a power cord IMO.....

 Even though I would like to see these that claim to hear the differences, in a trully double blind test, but I have nothing against them.....but I think that this will never happen, in all tests we had conducted here in the past, good or bad, for some reason the ones who claim hear those differences, never signed up to be in...Afraid of fail??? Who knows...




 And I agree 100% on that statement, even more I do beleive that is more than 50%, but I do not agree that 6' of a power cord will make the power better at all....how???_

 

I am not a believer in any cable but in good cables. Not every cable makes your system better!

 Let's face it, there are also cables out there that are not worth the money!

 But once you get the right cables, you'll never go/look back again!


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_





 The forbidden word. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






 Nobody knows how it works, there are only theories. The best way is to just listen to as many cables as possible without any bias. Eventually you will know what each variable does to the sound. I have cut my Valhalla cables to pieces so I can understand a little bit more why they sound the way they do._

 

I dunno how it works either, cleaner copper, better resistance values? Dunno, maybe it's not the cable but the rhodium plugs that make the difference...fact is that this powercord makes me hear lots more detail and has extended highs and lows. it's by far the best powercable, even better then the commercial one i bought.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Even though I would like to see these that claim to hear the differences, in a trully double blind test, but I have nothing against them.....but I think that this will never happen, in all tests we had conducted here in the past, good or bad, for some reason the ones who claim hear those differences, never signed up to be in...Afraid of fail??? Who knows...
_

 

You seem to have great difficulty grasping the concept of a "DBT-Free Forum."


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This Greek audiophile has spent €230 000 ($305 000) on his system and he says power is 50% of the sound.

*Audiophile:* Electricity is 50% of the sound, for me. You know that, everybody know that.


 For some reason skeptics want to ignore the truth, I guess it makes them feel better about themselves_

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They have to experience it themselves. The problem is that they are so convinced of their own ignorance that they never gonna try good cables.

 In this way it's kinda a circle they never get out.

 I had an open mind, tried it and have the powercables and IC's i want and these did more then i expected in the first place. Totally happy and i know now how much a difference cables make._

 

Don't each of these quotes cut both ways? Patrick latches onto the Greek audiophile's comment because it jives with his belief. But that same audiophile, who has been seen for many weeks now through assorted forums, is generally viewed as pathetic and delusional. Indeed the sadness of the film is the sadness of the characters. There is no joy or satisfaction to be seen. There is a sadness and unacknowledged doubt. They are a pitiable group. I only watched it once more than a month ago but that's what I saw.

 tourmaline continues propagating that those who don't put much stock (pun intended) in cables haven't tried them. Is that assumption correct? In my view a truly open mind will question his own beliefs and test his own theories. At least Patrick did blind test himself and kudos to him for the effort.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You seem to have great difficulty grasping the concept of a "DBT-Free Forum." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 


 We had conducted double blind tests here in the past, even recently we had one, Edwood conducted it, and the only reason to avoid talking of those in this forum, IIRC, is just becaue they always tend to end in a mud war...which we do not need here, but not becasue they are not the way to go, or that they will not offer a scientific explanation, or at least an statistical scientific database to later on evaluate and set the evidences that any test will lead, all tests blind or not, are the only evidence of the truth, and in order to prove something, you have to be able to reproduce it anytime you want, under similar conditions, otherwise it does not hold to much water IMO...

 But we are all fully aware also that the "Double blind test free forum" phrase is very convenient in cases where the evidence is completelly imposible, or very hard to achieve, but that doesn't mean that this is a "Voodoo/Snake Oil based forum" neither. 

 As many times before, guys keep on discussing all what you want about this fascinating theme, and if you ever reach any veredict regarding why the cables are worth multithousand tags, with any real scientific evidence to offer, just let me know.....


----------



## imported_Matt_Carter

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Even though I would like to see these that claim to hear the differences, in a trully double blind test,_

 

If we ever crosspaths, and in these regards I really hope we do.

 Your powercord and comments on hospital grade PC's does show you're a believer. A believer who just hasn't experienced the real thing. If you like, when i ship you my rudi I can include both my PC's.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 As many times before guys keep on discussing all what you want about this fascinating voodooish theme, and if you ever reach any veredict regarding why the cables are worth multithousand tags, with any evidence to offer, just let me know.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

 Ears.


----------



## imported_Matt_Carter

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ears._

 

HEAR HEAR


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ears._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Matt_Carter* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_HEAR HEAR_

 

Actually, you guys would be on team EYES/ SEE SEE, as you require a look to identify. 

 Sovkiller would be the only one with faith enough in hearing alone to trust ears.


----------



## imported_Matt_Carter

Aaa look who it is.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 My point made good bye.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sovkiller would be the only one with faith enough in hearing alone to trust ears. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

No, he only trusts hearing alone _provided _he switch back and forth every few seconds with precisely matched volume controls and with his wife or friend being blindfolded to make the switch, all this being conducted of course under whatever other rigorous and artificial "test"conditions you guys like to impose, to see if he can find "proof " of an audible difference that rises to the level acceptable to convict a criminal defendant of a crime.

 On the other hand, if merely listening in his usual setting in a nice, comfortable easy chair over a long period of time with his favorite selections results in him enjoying his music more due to his _ears _telling him the sound is improved due to a replacement power cord, that will not be good enough for him. He will have to conclude this is not proof, as the proper test was not conducted, mandating replacement with the previous cord which -- to his ears -- sounds worse. Then as he enjoys his music less, he will convince himself he does not enjoy it less by repeating over and over: "It sounds just as good as before, as I have not conducted a proper DBT." "It sounds just as good as before, as I have not conducted a proper DBT." "It sounds just as good as before, as I have not conducted a proper DBT." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Actually, we know he won't do any of this; he won't listen to anything; he just wants to "advertise" the "cables make no difference" point of view.)


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't each of these quotes cut both ways? Patrick latches onto the Greek audiophile's comment because it jives with his belief. But that same audiophile, who has been seen for many weeks now through assorted forums, is generally viewed as pathetic and delusional. Indeed the sadness of the film is the sadness of the characters. There is no joy or satisfaction to be seen. There is a sadness and unacknowledged doubt. They are a pitiable group. I only watched it once more than a month ago but that's what I saw.

 tourmaline continues propagating that those who don't put much stock (pun intended) in cables haven't tried them. Is that assumption correct? In my view a truly open mind will question his own beliefs and test his own theories. At least Patrick did blind test himself and kudos to him for the effort._

 

As did i and i did get the same results over again, the new IC's and my own made powercord are much better then the old cables i had!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The ones that question cables didn't try the really good ones(reference series) and therefor still doubt the higher end cables CAN have more impact. This is not the case: the higher end cables have bigger impact then going from one cheap cable to another. This, i and patrick and others state over and over again. Since alot of people are not willing to spend serious money on a good cable, how can they do testing? let alone blind testing. If i or anybody ask about the cables they heard, they are stuck in a certain pricerange far away from reference!

 I did it all and my conclusion is the same as patricks' or some other people; good cables do make a substantial difference...the really good cables cannot be had for a nickle and a dime... i tested them all in all priceregions and the reference series always came up as the best, also in blind testing (from one brand).


 As for testing my theories, i had the theory that the shielding messed up detail(really dark sounding, like a blanket over the sound): i completely removed the shielding of the expensive cable and it opened up completely, I took the risk and i proved myself right. The shielding is used to create a certain sound in a cable or soundstage. When i removed the shielding, the sound was clear and had the sparkle i was looking for, at the same time the huge soundstage was gone and the whole was moved closer to eachother, same thing as patrick observed.

 I've had my share of testing and expenses; i have the cables i want and have thanks to those cables more of the music i like!

 So, who are you to question me! I tested and listened and the cables i have are better then the ones i had before, loud and clear!
 I didn't expect the IC's to have such an impact but especially in the region of musicallity they are much, much better then any cable i had before. I use the same brand as patrick does so i know what he is talking about.

 The strange thing is nobody questions the fact that an expensive mercedes is better then say a middle class car, but both get you there if need be. Also better caps give you more music, same goes for cables, the more expensive ones(not all) are worth the money and in alot of respects much better then standard cables, yet this is somewhat still not accepted. If you buy expensive cables you're still an idiot or crazy yet buying other expensive stuff is accepted. My ears tell for me the whole story. What anoybody else wants to do with their money is up to them...i know my cables give me more pleasure listening to music and give alot more of it!

 In the end anybody is entitled to his opinion and to spend the money as he likes, but don't tell me good cables do not make any difference...


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No, he only trusts hearing alone provided he switch back and forth every few seconds with precisely matched volume controls and with his wife or friend being blindfolded to make the switch, all this being conducted of course under whatever other rigorous and artificial "test"conditions you guys like to impose, to see if he can find "proof " of an audible differnce that rises to the level acceptable to convict a criminal defendant of a crime.

 On the other hand, if merely listening in his usual setting in a nice, comfortable easy chair over a long period of time with his favorite selections results in him enjoying his music more due to his ears telling him the sound is improved due to a replacement power cord, that will not be good enough for him. He will have to conclude this is not proof, as the proper test was not conducted, mandating replacement with the previous cord which -- to his ears -- sounds worse. Then as he enjoys his music less, he will convince himself he does not enjoy it less by repeating over and over: "It sounds just as good as before, as I have not conducted a proper DBT." "It sounds just as good as before, as I have not conducted a proper DBT." "It sounds just as good as before, as I have not conducted a proper DBT." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Actually, we know he won't do any of this; he won't listen to anything; he just wants to "advertise" the "cables make no difference" point of view.) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I just don't see why each side in the debate needs to characterize the other as being absurd. I don't see any difference of error in repeating "it sounds the same as before" or repeating "it sounds better than before". 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As did i and i did get the same results over again, the new IC's and my own made powercord are much better then the old cables i had!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The ones that question cables didn't try the really good ones(reference series) and therefor still doubt the higher end cables CAN have more impact. This is not the case: the higher end cables have bigger impact then going from one cheap cable to another. This, i and patrick and others state over and over again. Since alot of people are not willing to spend serious money on a good cable, how can they do testing? let alone blind testing. If i or anybody ask about the cables they heard, they are stuck in a certain pricerange far away from reference!

 I did it all and my conclusion is the same as patricks' or some other people; good cables do make a substantial difference...the really good cables cannot be had for a nickle and a dime... i tested them all in all priceregions and the reference series always came up as the best, also in blind testing (from one brand).


 As for testing my theories, i had the theory that the shielding messed up detail(really dark sounding, like a blanket over the sound): i completely removed the shielding of the expensive cable and it opened up completely, I took the risk and i proved myself right. The shielding is used to create a certain sound in a cable or soundstage. When i removed the shielding, the sound was clear and had the sparkle i was looking for, at the same time the huge soundstage was gone and the whole was moved closer to eachother, same thing as patrick observed.

 I've had my share of testing and expenses; i have the cables i want and have thanks to those cables more of the music i like!

 So, who are you to question me! I tested and listened and the cables i have are better then the ones i had before, loud and clear!
 I didn't expect the IC's to have such an impact but especially in the region of musicallity they are much, much better then any cable i had before. I use the same brand as patrick does so i know what he is talking about.

 The strange thing is nobody questions the fact that an expensive mercedes is better then say a middle class car, but both get you there if need be. Also better caps give you more music, same goes for cables, the more expensive ones(not all) are worth the money and in alot of respects much better then standard cables, yet this is somewhat still not accepted. If you buy expensive cables you're still an idiot or crazy yet buying other expensive stuff is accepted. My ears tell for me the whole story. What anoybody else wants to do with their money is up to them...i know my cables give me more pleasure listening to music and give alot more of it!

 In the end anybody is entitled to his opinion and to spend the money as he likes, but don't tell me good cables do not make any difference..._

 

I've heard a difference and then months later not heard a difference (same stuff) and later been unable to tell if there's a difference. Don't get too riled by me as I'm just enjoying the comedy of it all with myself a dupe as well. I wouldn't bet substantial money on either side of the debate but I would put a small wager against those who hear a "substantial difference" being able to pick it out of a line up (with their life depending upon it). 
 The bottom line is that despite testimonials and ideological convictions, Patrick couldn't distinguish between his Valhalla and a stock cable, end of story. 

 I don't think someone is "an idiot or crazy" for buying expensive cables. I've bought expensive cables and......well I plead the 5th! Just kidding. Seriously, I still swap cables in and out and listen. I guess I'm stubborn.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just don't see why each side in the debate needs to characterize the other as being absurd. I don't see any difference of error in repeating "it sounds the same as before" or repeating "it sounds better than before". 

 I've heard a difference and then months later not heard a difference (same stuff) and later been unable to tell if there's a difference. Don't get too riled by me as I'm just enjoying the comedy of it all with myself a dupe as well. I wouldn't bet substantial money on either side of the debate but I would put a small wager against those who hear a "substantial difference" being able to pick it out of a line up (with their life depending upon it). 
 The bottom line is that despite testimonials and ideological convictions, Patrick couldn't distinguish between his Valhalla and a stock cable, end of story. 

 I don't think someone is "an idiot or crazy" for buying expensive cables. I've bought expensive cables and......well I plead the 5th! Just kidding. Seriously, I still swap cables in and out and listen. I guess I'm stubborn. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

At least i can pick up anytime my new IC versus my old IC, they are still quite different!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Otherwise how would i be able to tell there was a difference in the first place...I swapped and replaced, swapped again replaced the cable...till i was certain there was a "substantial" difference between the two cables.

 There ones was a wager on tele that a man could pick a disctinct setup out of 5 setups; he won, he 3 times picked the correct setup! program was called "wetten das" i think! So, it is possible!


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I just don't see why each side in the debate needs to characterize the other as being absurd. I don't see any difference of error in repeating "it sounds the same as before" or repeating "it sounds better than before". 
_

 

I wasn't characterizing the other side as absurd. I was making a joke for the purpose of emphasis. But it does seem to me that there is a "difference of error." In the former case, it sounds _different _to your ears and you are enjoying yourself more (according to my assumption) but you are trying to persuade yourself that it sounds the same based on what others have told you about DBT's that they conducted (which may not compare at all to the conditions under which _you _listen to music). You are accepting what others have told you over what you _actually_ hear or perceive -- notwithstanding that the pleasure one receives from listening to music stems in large part from what the brain perceives. 

 In the latter case, your ears, brain, or whatever, are leading you to perceive an audible difference which you find pleasing and that is allowing you to enjoy the music more. In that case, I don't think it is irrational to say: "I understand and appreciate what DBT's suggest, but I am enoying my music more based on what I am now perceiving or hearing." 

 Thus, it seems to me the former approach is indeed more irrational than the latter.


----------



## bigshot

If you can't hear a difference switching back and forth directly with balanced levels, and it takes a week or so for your ears to be able to "warm up" to detect a difference, it can't be a very large improvement.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_At least i can pick up anytime my new IC versus my old IC, they are still quite different!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Otherwise how would i be able to tell there was a difference in the first place...I swapped and replaced, swapped again replaced the cable...till i was certain there was a "substantial" difference between the two cables.

 There ones was a wager on tele that a man could pick a disctinct setup out of 5 setups; he won, he 3 times picked the correct setup! program was called "wetten das" i think! So, it is possible!_

 

I'm just about complete in a full scale dumbing down of my cable system with the arrival today of the full gamut of bargain priced Blue Jeans' Belden wares (speaker cable, digital coaxial BNC-RCA & RCA-RCA + optical, analogue interconnects). I've had a pair of their ICs in place for a few weeks now. If you weren't aware I replaced three Nordost Vishnu with three Volex (Belden) power cords. Am I to say all sounds as it did before? Well it doesn't for a number of reasons the biggest being I've moved! It was a hell of an awful room acoustically, brought under some control lately. A friend thought it never sounded better. If I had to lay out my cards I'd say I now feel there is a loss of something but it may be a gain of something. The system seems more plain speaking, the well recorded are still enthralling, the poor now seem more boring.

 Frankly, sounding better or worse I can't be sure, it may all be in my head. I'll go at it in the weeks ahead and if I'm still uncertain I think I'll just rent some movies and forget about it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wasn't characterizing the other side as absurd. I was making a joke for the purpose of emphasis. But it does seem to me that there is a "difference of error." In the former case, it sounds different to your ears and you are enjoying yourself more (according to my assumption) but you are trying to persuade yourself that it sounds the same based on what others have told you about DBT's that they conducted (which may not compare at all to the conditions under which you listen to music). You are accepting what others have told you over what you actually hear or perceive -- notwithstanding that the pleasure one receives from listening to music stems in large part from what the brain perceives. 

 In the latter case, your ears, brain, or whatever, are leading you to perceive an audible difference which you find pleasing and that is allowing you to enjoy the music more. In that case, I don't think it is irrational to say: "I understand and appreciate what DBT's suggest, but I am enjoying my music more based on what I am now perceiving or hearing." 

 Thus, it seems to me the former approach is indeed more irrational than the latter. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Thanks for the clarification Phil. Who knows, I may end up climbing a little up the cable ladder again some day. I agree, A person should feel happy with their home surroundings regardless of what others think.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The bottom line is that despite testimonials and ideological convictions, Patrick couldn't distinguish between his Valhalla and a stock cable, end of story._

 

What if someone answers correct a million times and wrong once because there was an earthquake? Skeptics like to cherry pick because they refuse to believe the truth.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...0&postcount=16
 It was pretty clear that colder temperature and fatigue caused me to guess wrong on the last trial. I'm sure if I continue blind testing every day I will eventually hit 99% because now I know more variables of what affects the sound.

 Power cords make a bigger difference than upsampling where I scored 99.99% in, so I know it's possible: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185477


----------



## Samgotit

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What if someone answers correct a million times and wrong once because there was an earthquake? Skeptics like to cherry pick because they refuse to believe the truth.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showpo...0&postcount=16
 It was pretty clear that colder temperature and fatigue caused me to guess wrong on the last trial. I'm sure if I continue blind testing every day I will eventually hit 99% because now I know more variables of what affects the sound.

 Power cords make a bigger difference than upsampling where I scored 99.99% in, so I know it's possible: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185477_

 

If I pull me peter near a tree, and notice a difference; then pull me peter near a 55 gallon drum, and notice no difference will the truth be apparent? It will to me 99.9% of the time because I'm the peter puller. As long as I'm not cold and tired, peter pulling is variable independent.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If you can't hear a difference switching back and forth directly with balanced levels, and it takes a week or so for your ears to be able to "warm up" to detect a difference, it can't be a very large improvement.
_

 

Depends what you mean by "large." Also, I don't think many of us would say it takes a week to hear the difference. I think the point rather is that it takes a longer term exposure to the first item (i.e., familiarity) before listening to the second.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm just about complete in a full scale dumbing down of my cable system with the arrival today of the full gamut of bargain priced Blue Jeans' Belden wares (speaker cable, digital coaxial BNC-RCA & RCA-RCA + optical, analogue interconnects). I've had a pair of their ICs in place for a few weeks now. If you weren't aware I replaced three Nordost Vishnu with three Volex (Belden) power cords. Am I to say all sounds as it did before? Well it doesn't for a number of reasons the biggest being I've moved! It was a hell of an awful room acoustically, brought under some control lately. A friend thought it never sounded better. If I had to lay out my cards I'd say I now feel there is a loss of something but it may be a gain of something. The system seems more plain speaking, the well recorded are still enthralling, the poor now seem more boring.

 Frankly, sounding better or worse I can't be sure, it may all be in my head. I'll go at it in the weeks ahead and if I'm still uncertain I think I'll just rent some movies and forget about it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanks for the clarification Phil. Who knows, I may end up climbing a little up the cable ladder again some day. I agree, A person should feel happy with their home surroundings regardless of what others think._

 

I feel happy with my setup right now, cabling is done. I feel i maxed it out pretty much. Now i am going to upgarde the amp with better caps and i am looking for a better source. After that, i should be happy for the next couple of years to come.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 To be on the level with ya, it might be that the replacement of caps has the biggest impact.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Samgotit* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If I pull me peter near a tree, and notice a difference; then pull me peter near a 55 gallon drum, and notice no difference will the truth be apparent? It will to me 99.9% of the time because I'm the peter puller. As long as I'm not cold and tired, peter pulling is variable independent._

 

Not true, when you're very tired you cannot concentrate on the music and it sounds different. So, the state of mind is also important.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I feel happy with my setup right now, cabling is done. I feel i maxed it out pretty much. Now i am going to upgarde the amp with better caps and i am looking for a better source. After that, i should be happy for the next couple of years to come.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_

 

Same with me, Valhalla was the cure of upgraditis, I'm set for the rest of my life. I don't need to upgrade even if there is something better. I'm now able to listen to music without complaining about problems in the sound. Good enough.


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I feel happy with my setup right now, cabling is done._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So, the state of mind is also important._

 

To my delicate dismay, my sweetheart turned off my warming-up amp but I put it back on and I just couldn't stand it. The only difference was a Belden 1694A Digital coaxial cable. I put back in the Stereovox coaxial and things improved. Does the Stereovox measure better? Better enough to hear? I don't know. Saturday I'll play the audio neurotic russian roulette game and try not to hurt myself!


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_To my delicate dismay, my sweetheart turned off my warming-up amp but I put it back on and I just couldn't stand it. The only difference was a Belden 1694A Digital coaxial cable. I put back in the Stereovox coaxial and things improved. Does the Stereovox measure better? Better enough to hear? I don't know. Saturday I'll play the audio neurotic russian roulette game and try not to hurt myself! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Something similar happened to me once. I changed out an interconnect, then went on a trip, and came back and it didn't sound like it did before I left. Couldn't figure out what it was "wrong" until I checked the connections on the back of the amp and then saw/remembered that I had switched to a different cable. Put the old one back and everything was right again.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Something similar happened to me once. I changed out an interconnect, then went on a trip, and came back and it didn't sound like it did before I left. Couldn't figure out what it was "wrong" until I checked the connections on the back of the amp and then saw/remembered that I had switched to a different cable. Put the old one back and everything was right again._

 

Things like that happen to me too. I upgraded something and it should have sounded better but it sounded worse because synergy was gone.


----------



## mlhm5

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Without power the component doesn't work and there will be no music. It's like trying to drive a car without any gas.


*1)* The gauge makes a huge difference. Thick cable makes music sound thick and slow, thin cable makes it sound thin, fast and detailed.
*2)* With more shielding the background gets blacker with more low-level resolution.
*3)* Connectors make it edgy and bright, hardwiring is the way to go. 
*4) *With lower dielectric it sounds smoother with more transparency and bigger soundstage. Polished conductor surface does the same.
*5) *Deeper silver plating gives greater dynamics.

 You can build a cheap cable for steps 1-3 above, but steps 4-5 are very hard to do, that's why I buy Valhalla.


 A 60Hz sine wave isn't the most effective way to feed the power supply, you need to further manipulate it with MultiWaves (PS Audio). I have gone from 60Hz -> 90Hz -> MWave1 -> MWave4 and each step made the same difference as a power cord upgrade. I found that MWave4 + Valhalla + Toroidal transformer is a perfect match.

 Without the smoothness from Valhalla it isn't possible to listen to my system, it's pretty obvious from my blind test._

 

Dude, there are hundreds of feet of wiring in your house before the power comes thru the outlet. All of it is either 12 or 14ga wire. Using a hospital grade power cord is the best you can do. Buy them on ebay for $4 each.

 As far as wiring speakers, and the rest of the system, keeping the resistance to less than 5% of the impedance is key, however, considering speakers have 8 ohms of impedance, and 12ga speaker wire only produces about 1/3 an ohm of resistance for every 100', at 25 feet it's 0.08 or 1% of the impedance of an 8 ohm speaker.

 It's all you need and if you think silver is really better than copper, well it is but not by much.

 Aluminum 2.655
 Copper 1.678
 Gold 2.24
 Silver 1.586* lowest but really insignificant at short distances
 Platinum 10.5

 As long as the interconnects are made with good quality construction (not radio shack), almost any cable will do the trick.

 BTW, do you really know how much plain old copper wire is wrapped in your woofers and mids? Well over 150 feet.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dude...hundreds of feet...12 or 14ga...$4...5%...8 ohms...12ga...1/3 an ohm...100', at 25 feet it's 0.08 or 1%...8 ohm...2.655...1.678...2.24...1.586*...10.5...150 feet._

 

Dude. Step away from the calculator and take a listen...


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dude, there are hundreds of feet of wiring in your house before the power comes thru the outlet. All of it is either 12 or 14ga wire. Using a hospital grade power cord is the best you can do. Buy them on ebay for $4 each.

 As far as wiring speakers, and the rest of the system, keeping the resistance to less than 5% of the impedance is key, however, considering speakers have 8 ohms of impedance, and 12ga speaker wire only produces about 1/3 an ohm of resistance for every 100', at 25 feet it's 0.08 or 1% of the impedance of an 8 ohm speaker.

 It's all you need and if you think silver is really better than copper, well it is but not by much.

 Aluminum 2.655
 Copper 1.678
 Gold 2.24
 Silver 1.586* lowest but really insignificant at short distances
 Platinum 10.5

 As long as the interconnects are made with good quality construction (not radio shack), almost any cable will do the trick.

 BTW, do you really know how much plain old copper wire is wrapped in your woofers and mids? Well over 150 feet._

 

Also don't forget that the differences in resistance between cooper and silver wires, as they are so small, could be solved going one gauge above in cooper. For example: 20 AWG cooper wire has better conductance than 21 AWG silver wire for example, that is why silver wire is avoided by manufacturers, it is too expensive and practically they get no benefits from its use, get a thicker cooper wire or trace on the board, and you will be on the safe side....



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dude. Step away from the calculator and take a listen..._

 

Patrick why don't you tell the same to the cable manufacturers? They seem to know very well how to have a caculator very close, and in the right pocket, while they charge you for their cables, (with those outrageous prices, in order to calculate the taxes, they sometimes may need it for sure...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## Black Stuart

mlhm5,
 I used to believe all the twaddle about miles and miles and miles of wire/huge txs etc. etc. - that's the theory, in reality (which is the only thing that interests me) you can cut out all or most of this crap by using various procedures: power conditioners/different PCs'/ plugs etc.

 I did'nt believe that power cords could make a difference until I used a homebrew PC with my Bada h/amp - I have since moved on and indeed one contributor to this thread will receive in the next few days a PC made by myself from highest grade American mil. spec. wire. I know he will give an honest answer - be it good or bad.

 Sovkiller - what you state is factually correct about the 'small differences between silver and copper' but then there are the 'black arts'.

 Sheilding - in some instances sheilding is nec. ie. leadout wires from a TT. I have tried using non-sheilded, it does'nt work - so much hum.

 Sorry Patrick82 - I find the total opposite of you - sheilded I/Cs cloud everything,copper blurs the finest details as does stranded wire. I use solid core silver/plated copper and like Tourmaline I know I have reached the end of the road here.

 Finest quality solid core, silver /plated copper is for me the way to go. For power cords simple 3-way weaving creates all the sheilding I need. I don't know why more Headfiers don't do what Tourmaline did eg. remove the sheilding from an expensive PC. He took an intuitive chance and it paid off.

 From my experiments I believe that you don't have to buy commercial products to get the best but then I come from a forum that thinks that anyone who buys commercially is a heretic. That Patrick82 and Tourmaline are prepared to pay a lot to be content with their systems, should'nt be derided by others - it does'nt matter how you get there, as long as you do, hell, there are far worse things to spend money on. I spent very little money on my wires and I'm happy/contented - surely that's the craic.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_mlhm5,
 I used to believe all the twaddle about miles and miles and miles of wire/huge txs etc. etc. - that's the theory, in reality (which is the only thing that interests me) you can cut out all or most of this crap by using various procedures: power conditioners/different PCs'/ plugs etc.

 I did'nt believe that power cords could make a difference until I used a homebrew PC with my Bada h/amp - I have since moved on and indeed one contributor to this thread will receive in the next few days a PC made by myself from highest grade American mil. spec. wire. I know he will give an honest answer - be it good or bad.

 Sovkiller - what you state is factually correct about the 'small differences between silver and copper' but then there are the 'black arts'.

 Sheilding - in some instances sheilding is nec. ie. leadout wires from a TT. I have tried using non-sheilded, it does'nt work - so much hum.

 Sorry Patrick82 - I find the total opposite of you - sheilded I/Cs cloud everything,copper blurs the finest details as does stranded wire. I use solid core silver/plated copper and like Tourmaline I know I have reached the end of the road here.

 Finest quality solid core, silver /plated copper is for me the way to go. For power cords simple 3-way weaving creates all the sheilding I need. I don't know why more Headfiers don't do what Tourmaline did eg. remove the sheilding from an expensive PC. He took an intuitive chance and it paid off.

 From my experiments I believe that you don't have to buy commercial products to get the best but then I come from a forum that thinks that anyone who buys commercially is a heretic. That Patrick82 and Tourmaline are prepared to pay a lot to be content with their systems, should'nt be derided by others - it does'nt matter how you get there, as long as you do, hell, there are far worse things to spend money on. I spent very little money on my wires and I'm happy/contented - surely that's the craic._

 


 As I have stated many times before, in the case you have a power conditioner, or better, a power re-generator, that rectifies the wave and proper values, etc...(BTW I do not know of any yet, that do a decent job regarding that...at least not backed up with measurements, and with literature enough to back their claims) the use of an aftermarket power cord makes more sense to me, as you will take *this almost perfect AC power from that outlet to the equipment*, even though later on, it is rectified into DC, and that is all what the equipment see after that point, but maybe it will be easier and will get a better DC ripple, lower noise, etc...with a non very good PSU this way (but my suggestion is, if this happen, work on the PSU, as this PSU is not up to the task if this happen IMHO)...that is a possibility, but placing an expensive power cord directly on the polluted outlet of your home plain an simple, and claiming benefits is IMO a little on the naive side...but who knows, maybe we are wrong...but at least till now nobody have been able to prove it, with any physical evidence, other that the "hearing these benefits" claim, which IMO do not hold too much water, if others claim that they do not.

 Second I have tried shielded and non shielded, with ferrite cores and without, hospital grade cords 14AWG, 16AWG, 18AWG, and the effect on the sound is exactly the same, like a magnet to you shoes, they do absolutely nothing in comparison to the stock one...I still use them, just for added security, and nice looking naive purposes, and as I have them around, but honestly...nothing else...


----------



## mlhm5

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_mlhm5,
 I used to believe all the twaddle about miles and miles and miles of wire/huge txs etc. etc. - that's the theory, in reality (which is the only thing that interests me) you can cut out all or most of this crap by using various procedures: power conditioners/different PCs'/ plugs etc.

 I did'nt believe that power cords could make a difference until I used a homebrew PC with my Bada h/amp - I have since moved on and indeed one contributor to this thread will receive in the next few days a PC made by myself from highest grade American mil. spec. wire. I know he will give an honest answer - be it good or bad.

 Sovkiller - what you state is factually correct about the 'small differences between silver and copper' but then there are the 'black arts'.

 Sheilding - in some instances sheilding is nec. ie. leadout wires from a TT. I have tried using non-sheilded, it does'nt work - so much hum.

 Sorry Patrick82 - I find the total opposite of you - sheilded I/Cs cloud everything,copper blurs the finest details as does stranded wire. I use solid core silver/plated copper and like Tourmaline I know I have reached the end of the road here.

 Finest quality solid core, silver /plated copper is for me the way to go. For power cords simple 3-way weaving creates all the sheilding I need. I don't know why more Headfiers don't do what Tourmaline did eg. remove the sheilding from an expensive PC. He took an intuitive chance and it paid off.

 From my experiments I believe that you don't have to buy commercial products to get the best but then I come from a forum that thinks that anyone who buys commercially is a heretic. That Patrick82 and Tourmaline are prepared to pay a lot to be content with their systems, should'nt be derided by others - it does'nt matter how you get there, as long as you do, hell, there are far worse things to spend money on. I spent very little money on my wires and I'm happy/contented - surely that's the craic._

 

What you state disregards the fact that there are hundreds of feet of plain old copper wire along with cheap switches and wall sockets between the main and the source of power. 

 In other words, all those hundreds of feet of wire and switches are in the exact same circuit as the main.

 Think about that. 

 The absolute best main is a hospital grade power cord which can be bought off ebay for $4. These cords meet and exceed all government specs for insulation, resistance in the EU, Canada and the USA.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The absolute best main is a hospital grade power cord which can be bought off ebay for $4. These cords meet and exceed all government specs for insulation, resistance in the EU, Canada and the USA._

 

Are we to assume that this statement is made after you have tried all (or at least one) of the available aftermarket main cables on the market???

 Please elaborate on which main's cables you have tried in your system.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are we to assume that this statement is made after you have tried all (or at least one) of the available aftermarket main cables on the market???

 Please elaborate on which main's cables you have tried in your system._

 

Can you prove us after having tried several cables yourself, which are these differences??? And please notice that that I said *prove*, with any physical evidence, other than claiming that you heard this or that, which many people do not...????

 It is curious how everytime an skeptic....(cough!!!...herrr).....well, a non so beleiver state something, about something that is not a fact yet, at least according to the modern science, and that has not been proved at all, and can not according ot the existent laws, then they have to prove what they are saying or offer an evidence or try to validate the claim (but the other voodooish field does not, of course they are always right... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...) while indeed the ones who need to prove those claims are the "beleivers"... 

 If this evidence exists guys this kind of discussion makes no sense at all in the first instance, if those stated and heard differences are measurable, and there is scientfic database, based in experiments and tests, with literature, and physical laws that prove those benefits, we would never been discussing this issue here, simply those do not exist at all, and what indeed exist is all the opposite ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Of course if you feel confident hearing them, and are happy with your "aftermarket better" cables, that is what should matter to you...just my two cents...


----------



## mlhm5

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are we to assume that this statement is made after you have tried all (or at least one) of the available aftermarket main cables on the market???

 Please elaborate on which main's cables you have tried in your system._

 

There's nothing magic or even complicated about a power cord. All it does is get the AC from your wall to the unit's power supply. Period. The only requirement is that it do so with minimal losses (a given at such short lengths), without getting hot and starting a fire. If it does that its job is finished.

 By the time electricity goes through your unit's transformer, rectifiers, filter caps, and maybe regulators or various noise killing goodies it's DC. All that matters then are (1) that the unit's circuits get the DC voltages they need and (2) that little or no "leftover" AC components (called ripple current) are present. Both of those jobs are done by the unit's power supply, not the cord.

 The only extra thing a power cord might need extra in some noisy environments is shielding. A good shielded 6' hospital speced power cord shouldn't cost more than, oh, $10.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are we to assume that this statement is made after you have tried all (or at least one) of the available aftermarket main cables on the market???

 Please elaborate on which main's cables you have tried in your system._

 

Clumsy attempt of raising doubts on the posters credibility.

 In fact, you don't really need to have tasted a moon rock to tell it is most likely not made of green cheese. Especially if you ask a geologist and not an attorney or your hairdresser.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry Patrick82 - I find the total opposite of you - sheilded I/Cs cloud everything,copper blurs the finest details as does stranded wire. I use solid core silver/plated copper and like Tourmaline I know I have reached the end of the road here.

 Finest quality solid core, silver /plated copper is for me the way to go. For power cords simple 3-way weaving creates all the sheilding I need. I don't know why more Headfiers don't do what Tourmaline did eg. remove the sheilding from an expensive PC. He took an intuitive chance and it paid off._

 

I have found that it's not the shielding itself that makes it blurry, the problem is when the shield is tightly wrapped around the cable there will be an EM field traveling next to the conductors that carry the signal. Since some of the signal travels on the surface of the conductors it will be a problem. With all cheap shielded cables I have tried the detail was cut off. 
 Better would be to remove the shield completely and infect the wire with noise. When doing this it sounds more detailed but also more edgy and bright. Valhalla power cords and speaker cables don't have any shielding, but they compensate for the edginess by using multiple conductors.

 You also need to separate the hot and neutral wires because of the same reason. Tara Labs Zero does that properly. I'm a Tara Labs fanboy and I have never even tried their cables... But I have copied their design and done the same with my Valhalla cables. It works. I also tried dedicated grounding for the Valhalla interconnect and it gave the biggest improvement I ever heard. Disconnecting the shield from the DAC and amp might have had something to do with it as well. Putting active shielding around the cable is like laying out a carpet for the noise to travel into the components. 

 I have my Valhalla power cords wrapped in ERS Paper (it doesn't require grounding) and I have a huge gap between the paper and the surface of the cable. I heard no muddiness whatsoever, it sounded more detailed with more resolution because of a blacker background. I heard more of Valhalla, I heard what the silver plating was doing.

 A few months earlier I tried to have the ERS Paper touching the Valhalla cable and it sounded horribly muddy, detail was gone so I removed it. I was surprised since I only used a few inches of it. But when I tried it the 2nd time and had the gap between ERS and cable there were no problems, it was better in every way even when wrapping the whole cable with it.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There's nothing magic or even complicated about a power cord. All it does is get the AC from your wall to the unit's power supply. Period. The only requirement is that it do so with minimal losses (a given at such short lengths), without getting hot and starting a fire. If it does that its job is finished.

 By the time electricity goes through your unit's transformer, rectifiers, filter caps, and maybe regulators or various noise killing goodies it's DC. All that matters then are (1) that the unit's circuits get the DC voltages they need and (2) that little or no "leftover" AC components (called ripple current) are present. Both of those jobs are done by the unit's power supply, not the cord.

 The only extra thing a power cord might need extra in some noisy environments is shielding. A good shielded 6' hospital speced power cord shouldn't cost more than, oh, $10._

 

So your claim of "absolute best" is based on supposition, not real world experience?


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Clumsy attempt of raising doubts on the posters credibility.

 In fact, you don't really need to have tasted a moon rock to tell it is most likely not made of green cheese._

 


 Does not "ABSOLUTE BEST" mean that it is the best of all?

 How does one come to the conclusion that the best is actually best if only one has been tried?

 What would you say if I made the claim that "Lada is the Absolute Best car" It has tires, a motor and a steering wheel, what else could be needed. No sense in spending more than 3000.00 max on a new car


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ . . . but placing an expensive power cord directly on the polluted outlet of your home plain an simple, and claiming benefits is IMO a little on the naive side...but who knows, maybe we are wrong...but at least till now nobody have been able to prove it, with any physical evidence, other that the "hearing these benefits" claim, which IMO do not hold too much water, if others claim that they do not.
_

 

You're right, nobody has been able to "prove" that power cords make a difference -- the evidence is basically that many (but not all) claim to hear such differences. And nobody has been able to "prove" that they don't make a difference -- the evidence basically is measurements and other data that may or may not reflect what peopels ears (and brains) perceive under various conditions and circumstances.

 Doesn't that more or less set forth the present state of things? I mean, just saying over and over and back and forth: "You have no proof cables make a difference," "You have never tried such cables," "You believe in men on the moon, "Your system is not good enough to hear differences," "There are twenty miles of cable from the power plant to your house," etc., etc., etc., really isn't going to convince anyone on the other side, right? Or should we keep arguing about this for ever with the same old arguments over and over and over and over. Geez. There is nothing new said on these threads EVER!


----------



## mlhm5

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does not "ABSOLUTE BEST" mean that it is the best of all?

 How does one come to the conclusion that the best is actually best if only one has been tried?

 What would you say if I made the claim that "Lada is the Absolute Best car" It has tires, a motor and a steering wheel, what else could be needed. No sense in spending more than 3000.00 max on a new car_

 

I am amazed at the amount of hurdles "audiophiles" go through to rationalize that they think they can actually hear a difference in cables, especially power cables. Science, logic and common sense, are ignored and blind faith takes over.

 Do you really think the manufacturers of expensive audio equipment would sell a $5000 amp and equip it with a power cord that hinders it's ability to perform at it's best?


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Does not "ABSOLUTE BEST" mean that it is the best of all?

 How does one come to the conclusion that the best is actually best if only one has been tried?_

 

By estimating all relevant physical values coming into question for the intended aplication.

 If you're not able to do that for yourself (i'm not), ask someone who knows. Do not ask someone who would like to know, or whishes to improve something, or maybe just likes to show off a little with his new "car". Or someone who likes to sell you something.

 Your "car"-comparison does not fit, as there are much more values defining a car as a unique object than the items you mentioned.

 Adding the knowledge about the unreliability of human perception will clear out doubts sown by constantly repeated anecdotal evidence going round in messageboards.

 At least, that's what i think.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Can you prove us after having tried several cables yourself, which are these differences??? And please notice that that I said *prove*, with any physical evidence, other than claiming that you heard this or that, which many people do not...????

 It is curious how everytime an skeptic....(cough!!!...herrr).....well, a non so beleiver state something, about something that is not a fact yet, at least according to the modern science, and that has not been proved at all, and can not according ot the existent laws, then they have to prove what they are saying or offer an evidence or try to validate the claim (but the other voodooish field does not, of course they are always right... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ...) while indeed the ones who need to prove those claims are the "beleivers"... 

 If this evidence exists guys this kind of discussion makes no sense at all in the first instance, if those stated and heard differences are measurable, and there is scientfic database, based in experiments and tests, with literature, and physical laws that prove those benefits, we would never been discussing this issue here, simply those do not exist at all, and what indeed exist is all the opposite ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Of course if you feel confident hearing them, and are happy with your "aftermarket better" cables, that is what should matter to you...just my two cents..._

 

Sorry to ruffle your feathers...

 I was only asking which main's cables he has tried to come to the conclusion that the $4.00 ebay cable...now $10.00 max hospital grade cable is the "Absolute Best"

 What proof....please just the scientific facts...is there that this Hospital Grade Main's Cable is better than the stock ones that manufactures provide


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am amazed at the amount of hurdles "audiophiles" go through to rationalize that they think they can actually hear a difference in cables, especially power cables. Science, logic and common sense, are ignored and blind faith takes over.
_

 

That's just absolute krap! We're not idiots. We're intelligent people who, understanding the arguments, and being skeptics ourselves, have listened to cables in our system and heard differences.

 Why is this such a problem for you? If you don't accept it, fine. Don't use aftermarket cables or even try them. And go ahead and join one of those forums like hydrogen audio where you can laugh at all those audiophiles.

 But why do you feel a need to call people on this forum stupid? Or come on this forum and advance arguments in a manner and tone virtually guranteed to atagonize people? I don't get it.

 EDIT: And BTW, who are you? What is your background with audio and cables in general? You haven't filled out a profile, so there is nothing to indicate the basis you have for making the pronouncements you are making (which is becoming fairly typical on this forum). What basis (background, education, experience) do you have for being so certain and so judgmental of others?


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_By estimating all relevant physical values coming into question for the intended aplication. If you're not able to do that for yourself (i'm not), ask someone who knows. Do not ask someone who would like to know, or whishes to improve something, or maybe just likes to show off a little with his new "car". 

 Adding the knowledge about the unreliability of human perception will clear out doubts sown by constantly repeated anecdotal evidence going round in messageboards.

 At least, that's what i think._

 


 Again...why does one have to spend any amount of money to get a Hospital Grade cable....is not the one which came with the unit enough?


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am amazed at the amount of hurdles "audiophiles" go through to rationalize that they think they can actually hear a difference in cables, especially power cables. Science, logic and common sense, are ignored and blind faith takes over.

 Do you really think the manufacturers of expensive audio equipment would sell a $5000 amp and equip it with a power cord that hinders it's ability to perform at it's best?_

 


 What is so special about a Hospital Grade cable...is not the one the manufacturer provided good enough???

 Because you label something "Absolute Best" are we to agree on blind faith?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry to ruffle your feathers...

 I was only asking which main's cables he has tried to come to the conclusion that the $4.00 ebay cable...now $10.00 max hospital grade cable is the "Absolute Best"

 What proof....please just the scientific facts...is there that this Hospital Grade Main's Cable is better than the stock ones that manufactures provide_

 

IMO they are not they absolute best, of course, you can do a lot better cable, and get an exceptionally well done, with exotic materials, in a fancy jacket and very expensive one instead, but the question is: Do you really need it???? To what extend this will offer you any audible or measurable benefit???

 But HG cables are better constructed and more reliable, tested to their limits, which the others are not, and in some cases (if not all of them) they best those exotic ones regarding that, which sometimes are not even UL aproved, so this is a reason good enough that if they cost $4.00 or $10.00 to get them instead...and just for reliability and safety purposes... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Ah, BTW and as a side note, no feathers to ruffle here, just hair too much if you ask my wife, talking about feathers to a man, in some cultures is consider an offencse, OK? I suppose, and understand, that this was not your intention, and that this is a saying, but leave the feather better for more delicate guys here, this is not my case at all....macho man here, OK????


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your "car"-comparison does not fit, as there are much more values defining a car as a unique object than the items you mentioned._

 

Again you miss the point...

 How can one say "Absolute Best" without at least trying two???


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_IMO they are not they absolute best, of course, you can do better, and get an exceptionally well done, with exotic materials, in a fancy jacket and very expensive one instead, but the question is: Do you really need it???? To what extend this will offer any audible measurable benefit???

 But they are better constructed and more reliable, and in somecases if not all of them, they best those exotic ones regarding that, which sometimes are not even UL aproved, so this is a reason good enough that if they cost 4.00 or 10.00 to get them instead...just for reliability and safety purposes... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 Ah, BTW and as a side note, no feathers to ruffle here, just hair too much if you ask my wife, talking about feathers to a man, in some cultures is consider an offencse, OK? I suppose, and understand, that this was not your intention, and that this is a saying, but leave the feather better for more delicate guys here, this is not my case at all....macho man here, OK???? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	











_

 

This was my point..."Absolute Best" is such a final and decissive term.

 I was just trying to determine how he arrived at his conclussion.

 Also...thanks for the heads up on the feathers...did not know (just for my education, which cultures are you referring too?)...next time will use "did not mean to P*%s in your Cornflakes...my appoligies to any corn lovers out there


----------



## mlhm5

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What is so special about a Hospital Grade cable...is not the one the manufacturer provided good enough???

 Because you label something "Absolute Best" are we to agree on blind faith?_

 

Nope, it's your $$ and you can spend it however you want.


----------



## Vul Kuolun

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Again...why does one have to spend any amount of money to get a Hospital Grade cable....is not the one which came with the unit enough?_

 

 Quote:


 Again you miss the point...

 How can one say "Absolute Best" without at least trying two??? 
 

Sorry, didn't get it there. You're right. Although i'd say that i can not see any reason to compare something here at all. And if i did, the result would'nt mean a ****.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am amazed at the amount of hurdles "audiophiles" go through to rationalize that they think they can actually hear a difference in cables, especially power cables. Science, logic and common sense, are ignored and blind faith takes over.

 Do you really think the manufacturers of expensive audio equipment would sell a $5000 amp and equip it with a power cord that hinders it's ability to perform at it's best?_

 

in order to make more money they skimp on the cables. Did you ever get a descent cable when you perchased expensive equipment? I didn't; all they deliver is mediocre cheap cables.

 If you buy an expensive car, you still need to pay extra's for all the goodies you want in and on the car!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Shielding: it made a huge difference on my power cable. Wihtout shielding the dark sound was gone, i had much more detail and the sparkle was there!


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nope, it's your $$ and you can spend it however you want._

 



 And yes it is my money, but please advise why I should spend it to replace the manufactures cord with "Hospital Grade cords"....what is wrong with the cord supplied with the unit?


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And BTW, who are you? What is your background with audio and cables in general? You haven't filled out a profile, so there is nothing to indicate the basis you have for making the pronouncements you are making (which is becoming fairly typical on this forum). What basis (background, education, experience) do you have for being so certain and so judgmental of others?_

 

Still waiting for an answer.

 It's pretty clear by looking at the other posts you are making in various threads on this sub-forum and others that you are basically a anti-cable troll, even popping into threads that don't specifically ask about cable differences just so you can advance your agenda. Why don't you go get a life.


----------



## tourmaline

I think military stuff is even better! Think military grade tubes and stuff, they sound much better, live longer and have better specs...everybody is looking for military NOS tubes these days. I own a few and yes, they are much, much better then the normal grade tubes. It is clearly audible!

 Since military has plenty of money, they only want the best! 

 I don't think hospital grade is that much better then ordinary stuff...high end grade stuff is!


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Vul Kuolun* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sorry, didn't get it there. You're right. Although i'd say that i can not see any reason to compare something here at all. And if i did, the result would'nt mean a ****._

 


 I agree, to compare something as abstract as a power cord on a forum like this would be a waste of time. 

 I was not looking for a comparrison, rather what he used to base his conclussion on


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_And yes it is my money, but please advise why I should spend it to replace the manufactures cord with "Hospital Grade cords"....what is wrong with the cord supplied with the unit?_

 

Because they are the cheapest the manufacturors can get and make therefor more money. I trieda couple of cheap ones out against my own high end grade cables and they ALL loose with a substantial margin...the high end cables have better speed, detail, transparency and sparkle.

 If you're happy with your cables, then it's fine for you.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_in order to make more money they skimp on the cables. Did you ever get a descent cable when you perchased expensive equipment? I didn't; all they deliver is mediocre cheap cables._

 

Well actually some manufacturers don't even provide any cord at all, given the fact that they know that mostly all audiophiles will replace them with fancy cords. So why wasting money on that? They do not skimp on the cables, they simply cut the corner completelly...Personally I ask if you want it or not, but the one we will provide in any case is a computer cord that will do the job and period...the rest is on you...


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Well actually some manufacturers don't even provide any cord at all, given the fact that they know that mostly all audiophiles will replace them with fancy cords. So why wasting money on that? They do not skimp on the cables, they simply cut the corner completelly...Personally I ask if you want it or not, but the one we will provide in any case is a computer cord that will do the job and period...the rest is on you..._

 


 Agree, they want most money out of it. I did so many tests myself that i KNOW that my selfmade high end powercord is much better then any cheap computer cord. Even with shielding, the cord is much better, without shielding it's substantially better.

 It gets the job done...other cables do the job even better.

 If you want to spend money on those cables is completely up to you. I will, since i know it makes a substantial difference.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Agree, they want most money out of it. I did so many tests myself that i KNOW that my selfmade high end powercord is much better then any cheap computer cord. Even with shielding, the cord is much better, without shielding it's substantially better.

 It gets the job done...other cables do the job even better.

 If you want to spend money on those cables is completely up to you. I will, since i know it makes a substantial difference._

 

Just keep in mind that in case of a fire, the insurance will not pay a penny if they find out that you are using "selfmade" powercords OK??? So keep that in secret.....


----------



## Patrick82

Skeptics with crappy cables want to make themselves believe cables don't make a difference so that they don't need to spend money on them. They are obviously not interested in getting better audio quality. If they really wanted better sound they would try stuff.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Patrick82* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Skeptics with crappy cables want to make themselves believe cables don't make a difference so that they don't need to spend money on them. They are obviously not interested in getting better audio quality. If they really wanted better sound they would try stuff._

 

Skeptics could say also for example: Believers want to make others jump in the same wagon they jumped, and this way feel better with themselves in having wasted all their money in things that makes no difference, as others will do the same as they did....

 What is good for the goose is good for the gander as well, OK?

 Also keep in mind that manufacturers are only interested in making money, and sell their stuff. How many of them offer free auditions, for let's say a month, to any audiophile that want to try their products??? If they are so sure of what they make, and that their product is absolutelly the best, and that will make a huge difference, why not offering free auditions then? For sure if that is true the audiophiles will buy them later on, instead of selling them for the cost of a used car, and trying to rip us off with those prices, and silly claims that nobody can prove???


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Also keep in mind that manufacturers are only interested in making money, and sell their stuff, how many of them offer free auditions, for let's say a month, to any audiophile that want to try their products??? If they are so sure of what they make, and that their product is absolutelly the best, and that will make a huge difference, why not offering free auditions then, for sure if that is true the audiophiles will buy them later on, instead of selling them for the cost of a used car, and trying to rip us off with those prices, and silly claims that nobody can prove???_

 

Hard to follow these run-on sentences sometimes, but if I'm reading this correctly, it seems that the majority of cable manufacturers offer 30 to 60-day trial periods, some even longer.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hard to follow these run-on sentences sometimes, but if I'm reading this correctly, it seems that the majority of cable manufacturers offer 30 to 60-day trial periods, some even longer._

 

I tried to fix the long sentence a little bit.....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Some of them, as you stated, but for example I was not able to find any information to any warranty, nor any return policy in the Nordost website at all, is there any? Just to mention one that I recalled, the Outlaw cables were not returnable at all, neither, and if I do a search I could find a lot more...my point is that if Blue Jeans can afford to offer you a full refund, and state their policies clearly in their site, selling at $25.00, why not those companies selling with much more profit?


----------



## mlhm5

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_in order to make more money they skimp on the cables. Did you ever get a descent cable when you perchased expensive equipment? I didn't; all they deliver is mediocre cheap cables.

 If you buy an expensive car, you still need to pay extra's for all the goodies you want in and on the car!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Shielding: it made a huge difference on my power cable. Wihtout shielding the dark sound was gone, i had much more detail and the sparkle was there!_

 

Why don't you call Krell and ask if they reccommend replacing the OEM main with an upscale power cable? Better yet call Grado and ask them if they reccommend a cable upgrade to increase fidelity.


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why don't you call Krell and ask if they reccommend replacing the OEM main with an upscale power cable? Better yet call Grado and ask them if they reccommend a cable upgrade to increase fidelity._

 

Why don't you start by telling us why a Hospital Grade cable is better than the stock one the manufacturer supplies


----------



## mlhm5

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *883dave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why don't you start by telling us why a Hospital Grade cable is better than the stock one the manufacturer supplies_

 

Never said it was. What I said is that if you decide to replace a main, all is needed, is a simple $10 hospital grade power cord. You don't need to spend $300 on a fancy main.

 Go back and reread the posts.

 OEM power cords are just fine, unless you think a manufacturer would sabatoge their equipment by having a substandard main that prohibited the unit from achieving its potential.


----------



## skyline889

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Why don't you call Krell and ask if they reccommend replacing the OEM main with an upscale power cable? Better yet call Grado and ask them if they reccommend a cable upgrade to increase fidelity._

 

Krell charges $500 a meter pair for their Cast cables that allow you to "fully maximize" your Krell system by using their KCT current output technology. Grado has already begun factory terminating some of their RS-1/RS-2/GS-1000 flagship models with Drew's Silver and Black Dragon Cables. Way back when, Grado also allowed you to send in your HP-1000s for an upgrade to their special UWB Reference cable, supposedly a "major upgrade" over stock.


----------



## trose49

whats the best <$100 Power cord available?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skyline889* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Krell charges $500 a meter pair for their Cast cables that allow you to fully maximize their "KCT" technology. Grado has already begun factory terminating their RS-1/RS-2/GS-1000 flagship models with Drew's Silver and Black Dragon Cables. Way back when, Grado also allowed you to send in your HP-1000s for an upgrade to their special UWB Reference cable, supposedly a "major upgrade" over stock._

 

But those are signal cables, we are talking in this thread of power cables, not sure why he brought the signal cables into this debate, signal cables are a completelly different story...


----------



## skyline889

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But those are signal cables, we are talking in this thread of power cables, not sure why he brought the signal cables into this debate, signal cables are a completelly different story..._

 

Apparently, he read somewhere that someone from McIntosh said that all cables; speaker cable, interconnects, pcs, etc, are just marketting ploys.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Some of them, as you stated, but for example I was not able to find any information to any warranty, nor any return policy in the Nordost website at all, is there any?_

 

But aren't Nordost sold by various distributors that have return policies, e.g., Music Direct?


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Never said it was. What I said is that if you decide to replace a main, all is needed, is a simple $10 hospital grade power cord. You don't need to spend $300 on a fancy main.

 Go back and reread the posts.

 OEM power cords are just fine, unless you think a manufacturer would sabatoge their equipment by having a substandard main that prohibited the unit from achieving its potential._

 

Still waiting for the basis for your statements. For all we know, you could be an articulate 12-year old just regurgitating what you're read somewhere (e.g., the MacIntosh article). If you want to be taken seriously, why can't you at least provide some background regarding the basis for these dogmatic statements you are making, as well as your background, experience in audio?

 I mean, I rarely agree with Sovkiller when we discuss these particular issues, but if you look at his profile, and read his other posts, you can see he has substantial experience with audio-related products, and there is a basis to evaluate what he says and give serious consideration to his viewpoint, even if one decides ultimately to disagree in certain respects.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_But aren't Nordost sold by various distributors that have return policies, e.g., Music Direct?_

 

I don't know and honestly those are far above my budget, but anyway...it will be good to find out...


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know and honestly those are far above my budget, but anyway...it will be good to find out..._

 

I checked it out. The latest Music Direct catalogue has the Nordost Vahalla power cord listed, along with various other Nordost cables, and they state in the catalogue that any of their items (with limited exceptions such as phone cartridges) have a 30-day return.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I checked it out. The latest Music Direct catalogue has the Nordost Vahalla power cord listed, along with various other Nordost cables, and they state in the catalogue that any of their items (with limited exceptions such as phone cartridges) have a 30-day return._

 

So now there is no reason why we could not give them a call and ask for free tryout of those Valhallas, eh? Will they accept, to send me one to try for 30 days??? I doubt it... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			












  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *skyline889* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Apparently, he read somewhere that someone from McIntosh said that all cables; speaker cable, interconnects, pcs, etc, are just marketting ploys._

 


 He probably has read about this here, and here, and here, and here, same as I did some time ago, and we could find hundreds of more tests done along the history of audio, and honestly those guys have tons of info and tests to back their claims, it is hard to believe others after that, with nothing to offer other than words, and in some cases, even with with less experience and knowledge, than those who participate in those tests, honestly, is hard for the "skeptics" as they are called here, but evne me have my doubts now of who is more skeptic ??? ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...


----------



## 883dave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_What you state disregards the fact that there are hundreds of feet of plain old copper wire along with cheap switches and wall sockets between the main and the source of power. 

 In other words, all those hundreds of feet of wire and switches are in the exact same circuit as the main.

 Think about that. 

 The absolute best main is a hospital grade power cord which can be bought off ebay for $4. These cords meet and exceed all government specs for insulation, resistance in the EU, Canada and the USA._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Never said it was. What I said is that if you decide to replace a main, all is needed, is a simple $10 hospital grade power cord. You don't need to spend $300 on a fancy main.

 Go back and reread the posts.

 OEM power cords are just fine, unless you think a manufacturer would sabatoge their equipment by having a substandard main that prohibited the unit from achieving its potential._

 


 I appoligize I must have mis-read what you were thinking.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So now there is no reason why we could not give them a call and ask for free tryout of those Valhallas, eh? Will they accept, to send me one to try for 30 days??? I doubt it..._

 

I'm sure if you pay for it, you could try it for thirty days. Why should they give you a free trial? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_He probably has read about this here, and here, and here, and here, same as I did some time ago, and we could find hundreds of more tests done along the history of audio, and honestly those guys have tons of info and tests to back their claims, it is hard to believe others after that, with nothing to offer other than words, and in some cases, even with with less experience and knowledge, than those who participate in those tests, honestly, is hard for the "skeptics" as they are called here, but evne me have my doubts now of who is more skeptic ??? ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ..._

 

 We all have seen the articles. And I submit that virtually every believer has seen the articles and read about the tests, etc. Thus, I would submit that virtually every believer has "experienced" the evidence pro and con.

 On the other hand, it is the "skeptic" camp that is populated by certain folks who have absolutely zero experience with the product under question -- and who refuse to obtain any -- and who refuse to admit that they have none. Thus, you get folks from the "skeptic" camp who have only "experienced" the evidence on one side of the issue. And I submit, therefore, that their opinion is of little value. I think it is absurd to make a categorical, absolute pronouncement about something like this without any experience whatsoever.

 Moreover, we don't need people with zero experience whatsoever (as far as we know) to refer us to articles. We all can read, and we're aware of what they say. And we are referred to them constantly by people who _have _experience with cables, who believe in the science and think cables don't make a difference -- and who arguably have a more reasoned basis for their opinions. Therefore, someone with no profile, who offers no information about his audio experience or background, who merely references one article he read, and then essentially says, "power cords make no difference period," offers nothing of value to this ongoing debate. And if he also adds insults, and goes out of his way to do this on several threads, he is basically a troll.


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm sure if you pay for it, you could try it for thirty days. Why should they give you a free trial? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

They believe that they are offering the best out of the best 91% of speed of light If that is true maybe I will buy them....who knows??? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 (BTW what the hell the speed of light has to do with a power cable, they are optic cables or what???....Do you recall if those were those who claimed that those cables were designed by God some time ago, or who was that??? That was funny at that time, there was huge thread about that claim....) 

  Quote:


 We all have seen the articles. And I submit that virtually every believer has seen the articles and read about the tests, etc. Thus, I would submit that virtually every believer has "experienced" the evidence pro and con.

 On the other hand, it is the "skeptic" camp that is populated by certain folks who have absolutely zero experience with the product under question -- and who refuse to obtain any -- and who refuse to admit that they have none. Thus, you get folks from the "skeptic" camp who have only "experienced" the evidence on one side of the issue. And I submit, therefore, that there opinion is of little value. I think it is absurd to make a categorical, absolute pronouncement about something like this without any experience whatsoever.

 Moreover, we don't need people with zero experience whatsoever (as far as we know) to refer us to articles. We all can read, and we're aware of what they say. And we are referred to them constantly by people who _have _experience with cables, who believe in the science and think cables don't make a difference -- and who arguably have a more reasoned basis for their opinions. Therefore, someone with no profile, who offers no information about his audio experience or background, who merely references one article he read, and then essentially says, "power cords make no difference period," offers nothing of value to this ongoing debate. And if he also adds insults, and goes out of his way to do this on several threads, he is basically a troll. 
 

I do not think he is troll, he just stated his opinion on the subject, same as we do on others. Keep in mind that for the ones who do not believe in power cords, it is hard to understand certain claims, unless you actually try and hear for yourself....honestly I would like to be more open minded regarding that, and that doesn't mean that if a good power cord crosses my way I will refuse to try it, but I will not look for it, nor pay for it, simply because I consider that there are other areas still for improvement in my system, and wasting my money with outrageous priced power cords is not the way to go, at least not for now...Cables belong to the tweaks section, and I'm not there yet.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










 But given that you mention that topic, there are others here, that are considered "believers" that IMO do not had add too much input neither (other than a few stupid tests, with no scientific base at all, are full of more flaws than any other here, even with crossed and messed results) and everybody is following his posts and even trying to use those tests, and results, as an evidence....but as he is on their side, bravo!!! Com'on guys, we have to be fair, OK?


----------



## trose49

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trose49* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_whats the best <$100 Power cord available?_

 

Are people just ignoring me?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trose49* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are people just ignoring me?_

 

According to the audiophile logic, there is no absolute answer for that question, as there are too many variables involved, and all depends on the sytem, location, quality of power, etc....and what is good in one system maybe is not in another...or something like that.....

 WOW!!! I'm getting good using that audiophile terminology...eh????


----------



## trose49

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_According to the audiophile logic, there is no absolute answer for that question, as there are too many variables involved, and all depends on the sytem, location, quality of power, etc....and what is good in one system maybe is not in another...or something like that.....

 WOW!!! I'm getting good using that audiophile terminology...eh???? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

I will pull out the OHM meter and check the specs in the wall and get back to ya!


----------



## trose49

OK What Power Cables are available in the 50-100 price range?


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trose49* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK What Power Cables are available in the 50-100 price range?_

 

IIRC markl has a review of a bunch of cables in the featured section, give a look there are soem inexpensive ones there...

 It is not in the "featured reviews" so I bring it here.

 BTW these Iron Lung Jellyfish / Volex 17604 are very popular as inexpensive ones, and very similar to the Quails we got in that group buy, some time ago, organized by tortie here (two times one in grey, and another in black)


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 But given that you mention that topic, there are others here, that are considered "believers" that IMO do not had add too much input neither (other than a few stupid tests, with no scientific base at all, are full of more flaws than any other here, even with crossed and messed results) and everybody is following his posts and even trying to use those tests, and results, as an evidence....but as he is on their side, bravo!!! Com'on guys, we have to be fair, OK? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			









_

 

 I think I know to whom you refer, and to me it's apples and oranges, but it's probably not appropriate to delve to deeply into various personalities on this thread, or to divert the thread by arguing which side's extremists are less worthy of serious consideration.


----------



## bigshot

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *trose49* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Are people just ignoring me?_

 

Your price range puts you in a "no man's land". Here's the problem... If you judge the quality of power cables by their price, then there are no good $50 cables. If you don't believe cables make any difference, then $50 is way too much to pay.

 See ya
 Steve


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Your price range puts you in a "no man's land". Here's the problem... If you judge the quality of power cables by their price, then there are no good $50 cables. If you don't believe cables make any difference, then $50 is way too much to pay.

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Why use cables at all? If you don't believe in quality of cables use cable free(wireless) audio transports!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Bet it sounds even worse then with cables, even the cheap ones.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_According to the audiophile logic, there is no absolute answer for that question, as there are too many variables involved, and all depends on the sytem, location, quality of power, etc....and what is good in one system maybe is not in another...or something like that.....

 WOW!!! I'm getting good using that audiophile terminology...eh???? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

A good cable will always sound good on any system.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The only variables i can think of are:

 Different kind of silver/copper used...crystal structure.
 Different isolation materials
 Different shielding.
 Silver plated or non silver plated.
 Standard plugs or high grade plugs.


----------



## Patrick82

When a skeptic is powering his equipment without cables, does it have a sound?

 Skeptics are sitting there with all cables unplugged because they don't believe it makes a difference, they are just imagining they are controlling the equipment with their remote, I bet the remote doesn't have batteries either.


----------



## Black Stuart

Patrick82,
 I think you have a valid point about the distance/seperation of a sheild from the signal wire but this surely applies to I/Cs and not power cords. I don't use sheilding on any power cords but then I don't run my sound rig anywhere near a computer and I can well understand those who have to.

 Phils - I only take issue with the word 'believer' - I don't believe in anything, either something works or it does'nt. I'm not trying to be pedantic but the skeptics will jump on this word and use it in their negative comments.

 I can think of no reason to continue debating with the skeptics, for or against using better PCs, there is nothing to be gained here, only a waste of that most valuable commodity - time.

 Whenever I suggest DIY on Headfiers, there tends to be a deafening silence - why? I think that this issue of making your own is worth exploring for all those who have only ever bought commercial offerings. To debate this is not a waste of time and ideas and techniques can be discussed and argued from a positive and rational standpoint.


----------



## flecom

personally i cant justify spending more than $10 on a power cable... again, thats just me...

 you know, unless you change out the outlet... and all the wiring in your house... and the wire going to your powerline/transformer... and then shield the wire on the powerline to the substation... then hope to god you dont have a user with a large inductive load on your feeder... and maybe if your lucky you can get a cap bank on your line...

 actually your just better off making your own power plant/transmission/distribution systems with all audiophile components...

 but ya, unless there is something seriously wrong with your existing power cable... or you have a poorly designed powersupply to begin with (which isnt that uncommon...) ... i dont see how a cable can make a real audible difference...

 *puts on flame suit*


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_A good cable will always sound good on any system.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Nope that is a misconception, some good cables as markl review indicates perform under others less expensive, and not so good depending on the system. Also he is asking about the best cable in a price range, even while I know that the audiophile logic indicates that a good cable will be better than the stock and will sound good, to determine with is the absolute best as he was asking, according to that same logic is not an easy task, depends on the componet to be feed, you have to try them in your setup....
 See markl review...he tested several cables and one is good here and the other is better there, now you change the gear t obe feed and things change....

 According to his tests:

 ".....“Power cords are even more component-dependent than interconnects. A power cord that does not show good compatibility with one component, may really shine with another.” ...."


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nope that is a misconception, some good cables as markl review indicates perform under others less expensive, and not so good depending on the system. Also he is asking about the best cable in a price range, even while I know that the audiophile logic indicates that a good cable will be better than the stock and will sound good, to determine with is the absolute best as he was asking, according to that same logic is not an easy task, depends on the componet to be feed, you have to try them in your setup....
 See markl review...he tested several cables and one is good here and the other is better there, now you change the gear t obe feed and things change....

 According to his tests:

 ".....“Power cords are even more component-dependent than interconnects. A power cord that does not show good compatibility with one component, may really shine with another.” ...."_

 

How can a powercord have not compatibility with a component?! There is only juice going trough, it's not a signal carrier like an IC! I think the variations in IC's are at least as component dependant as his powercables.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nope that is a misconception, some good cables as markl review indicates perform under others less expensive, and not so good depending on the system. Also he is asking about the best cable in a price range, even while I know that the audiophile logic indicates that a good cable will be better than the stock and will sound good, to determine with is the absolute best as he was asking, according to that same logic is not an easy task, depends on the componet to be feed, you have to try them in your setup....
 See markl review...he tested several cables and one is good here and the other is better there, now you change the gear t obe feed and things change....

 According to his tests:

 ".....“Power cords are even more component-dependent than interconnects. A power cord that does not show good compatibility with one component, may really shine with another.” ...."_

 

How can a powercord have not compatibility with a component?! There is only juice going trough, it's not a signal carrier like an IC! I think the variations in IC's are at least as component dependant as his powercables.

 On several components the powercords performed the same...showing the same caracter it showed on other gear...

 I think the quality of the powersection of certain components are in play...


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Patrick82,
 I think you have a valid point about the distance/seperation of a sheild from the signal wire but this surely applies to I/Cs and not power cords. I don't use sheilding on any power cords but then I don't run my sound rig anywhere near a computer and I can well understand those who have to.

 Phils - I only take issue with the word 'believer' - I don't believe in anything, either something works or it does'nt. I'm not trying to be pedantic but the skeptics will jump on this word and use it in their negative comments.

 I can think of no reason to continue debating with the skeptics, for or against using better PCs, there is nothing to be gained here, only a waste of that most valuable commodity - time.

 Whenever I suggest DIY on Headfiers, there tends to be a deafening silence - why? I think that this issue of making your own is worth exploring for all those who have only ever bought commercial offerings. To debate this is not a waste of time and ideas and techniques can be discussed and argued from a positive and rational standpoint._

 


 I am always interested of how good or close some DIY cables come to the commercial products. Some are really good...some cannot match the commercial opponent. It's good to know if you have value for money and if you can get something better for cheap!

 I know that some people tried to copy good IC's (reference series) but never matched the same quality of sound...


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_How can a powercord have not compatibility with a component?! There is only juice going trough, it's not a signal carrier like an IC! I think the variations in IC's are at least as component dependant as his powercables.

 On several components the powercords performed the same...showing the same caracter it showed on other gear...

 I think the quality of the powersection of certain components are in play..._

 

I have no doubts of that, but all his gear is top notch, Ray PSU are very good, his Sony has an upgraded dual PSU, not sure what else he may have hooked in those.....Sorry but even while I'm a reasonably educated person, honestly I can't tell you for sure why he reached that conclusion, maybe due to the different constructions methods of the cables, shielding or not, the EMI/RFI, equipment demands, etc...sorry but I do not know...

 But that is mainly what I have read from the ones that had performed these kind of tests and comparisons most of the times. Now the logic behind those statements is still debatable for me, as it is the whole power cable theory in general...To be honest with you, I prefer it that way for my own good ($$$)....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .... for me there is still a huge mystery behind the power cords theory, and I preffer to believe that a good PSU has to be more than enough to satisfy my ego...and period...


  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am always interested of how good or close some DIY cables come to the commercial products. Some are really good...some cannot match the commercial opponent. It's good to know if you have value for money and if you can get something better for cheap!_

 

Be careful, without the proper knowledge you can get also a good fire for cheap, in which case no insurance will cover you, as those DIY power cables are not rated for anything, just my two cents on that DIY subject....


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Sovkiller* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have no doubts of that, but all his gear is top notch, Ray PSU are very good, his Sony has an upgraded dual PSU, not sure what else he may have hooked in those.....Sorry but even while I'm a reasonably educated person, honestly I can't tell you for sure why he reached that conclusion, maybe due to the different constructions methods of the cables, shielding or not, the EMI/RFI, equipment demands, etc...sorry but I do not know...

 But that is mainly what I have read from the ones that had performed these kind of tests and comparisons most of the times. Now the logic behind those statements is still debatable for me, as it is the whole power cable theory in general...To be honest with you, I prefer it that way for my own good ($$$)....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .... for me there is still a huge mystery behind the power cords theory, and I preffer to believe that a good PSU has to be more than enough to satisfy my ego...and period...




 Be careful, without the proper knowledge you can get also a good fire for cheap, in which case no insurance will cover you, as those DIY power cables are not rated for anything, just my two cents on that DIY subject...._

 


 No worries...i have my skills.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Even if a certified person does any modification the warranty is gone...

 In my system i heard the same carater(detail, transparency and neutrality) in each cord if i moved it to some other component. The carater of the cable remains the same... strange that the same cable sounds different on other components. It sounds the same to me on all components...if i put it on the filter, it sounds the same and if i put it on the amp, it sounds the same..it shows the same carateristics...i hear the same level of detail, transparency and neutrality througout the components...so his conclusions are not the same as mine...Only the different quality of the cables changed the sound...not the conponent i hooked the cable to...


----------



## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_In my system i heard the same carater(detail, transparency and neutrality) in each cord if i moved it to some other component. The carater of the cable remains the same... strange that the same cable sounds different on other components. It sounds the same to me on all components..._

 

[size=xx-small]Shhhhh!!!! Precisely these kind of controversies in the results, and the lack of any proper "psysical evidence", is what makes the skeptics even doubt more of that "power cord theory", don't you think??? [/size]


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Patrick82,
 I think you have a valid point about the distance/seperation of a sheild from the signal wire but this surely applies to I/Cs and not power cords. I don't use sheilding on any power cords but then I don't run my sound rig anywhere near a computer and I can well understand those who have to._

 

I see, I'm having the computer within a meter from my rack. I heard a difference when putting ERS Paper around the power cords. 

 When I think about it, a year ago I turned off the computer and music sounded little cleaner and more transparent, it was a very small difference and I thought it was placebo.


----------



## Patrick82

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_No worries...i have my skills.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Even if a certified person does any modification the warranty is gone...

 In my system i heard the same carater(detail, transparency and neutrality) in each cord if i moved it to some other component. The carater of the cable remains the same... strange that the same cable sounds different on other components. It sounds the same to me on all components...if i put it on the filter, it sounds the same and if i put it on the amp, it sounds the same..it shows the same carateristics...i hear the same level of detail, transparency and neutrality througout the components...so his conclusions are not the same as mine...Only the different quality of the cables changed the sound...not the conponent i hooked the cable to..._

 

Same with me, no matter where I put my power cord I could hear its sound signature. The power cord made a bigger difference than the component.

 The difference between a $500 and a $5000 component was big when they were plugged into the wall with stock cable, but with Valhalla and other tweaks they sound almost the same.

 Silver plating for power cords is great.


----------



## Ordeith

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mlhm5* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I am amazed at the amount of hurdles "audiophiles" go through to rationalize that they think they can actually hear a difference in cables, especially power cables. Science, logic and common sense, are ignored and blind faith takes over.

 Do you really think the manufacturers of expensive audio equipment would sell a $5000 amp and equip it with a power cord that hinders it's ability to perform at it's best?_

 

This was the response I received when I asked that question at a high end audio store here in toronto:

 "The amp they're trying to sell you is already $5000, they don't want to scare you away by including thousands of dollars in power cabling too - they leave it up to you to tweak it as you see fit" - that's pretty much verbatim.

 I haven't had the chance to test, and I was getting carried away in the store enough as it was, but it's something I'll enjoy testing (if I could, before I buy) eventually.


----------



## Black Stuart

trose49,
 you are quite right nearly everyone has been ignoring your initial question, I for one apologise.

 You have seen my suggestion about making your own. It will not cost you much and you will be amazed at how good a homebrew can sound.

 Buy some mil. spec wire off E-bay. I suggest something like 20AWG stranded, silver/plated copper. Weave 3 strands together (dead simple) each for pos/neg and 2/3 (I think 2 is sufficient) for Earth. Weave these 3 bundles together (you will have strong hands afterwards).

 Because of the weaving always allow longer lengths to start with. Pay attention to how you wire up the connectors and try- you will be amazed.

 Good I/Cs are even easier to make but try the power cord route first.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Ordeith* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This was the response I received when I asked that question at a high end audio store here in toronto:

 "The amp they're trying to sell you is already $5000, they don't want to scare you away by including thousands of dollars in power cabling too - they leave it up to you to tweak it as you see fit" - that's pretty much verbatim.

 I haven't had the chance to test, and I was getting carried away in the store enough as it was, but it's something I'll enjoy testing (if I could, before I buy) eventually._

 


 A good store should let you test the cable you like to hear! In the end you should walk away with the cable YOU think sounds best, not the cable the shop makes more money on or they think you should buy!


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_trose49,
 you are quite right nearly everyone has been ignoring your initial question, I for one apologise.

 You have seen my suggestion about making your own. It will not cost you much and you will be amazed at how good a homebrew can sound.

 Buy some mil. spec wire off E-bay. I suggest something like 20AWG stranded, silver/plated copper. Weave 3 strands together (dead simple) each for pos/neg and 2/3 (I think 2 is sufficient) for Earth. Weave these 3 bundles together (you will have strong hands afterwards).

 Because of the weaving always allow longer lengths to start with. Pay attention to how you wire up the connectors and try- you will be amazed.

 Good I/Cs are even easier to make but try the power cord route first._

 

The best experience he can get is to try out himself and listen to the cables in certain priceranges!


----------



## Black Stuart

Tourmaline,
 if he spends a few dollars first on homebrews and then listens to the commercial offerings in his price range - he may save himself quite a bit of money depending on how many PCs he needs.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tourmaline,
 if he spends a few dollars first on homebrews and then listens to the commercial offerings in his price range - he may save himself quite a bit of money depending on how many PCs he needs._

 

if you listen to the commercial products first...then you know how much of a value(or not) your home brew cable is.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Fact is that there are some good homebrew cables but most don't reach the quality of the best commercial cables...

 depends on how good the cables are... if he's longing for more... it's gonna cost him considderably more money...

 I am very curious how your cable does against my homebrew...according to patrick silver plated designs might have an edge...mine is 4mm high end grade pure single crystal copper...according to some others single crystal structure has an edge over other crystal designs so...i am very curious...


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Tourmaline,
 if he spends a few dollars first on homebrews and then listens to the commercial offerings in his price range - he may save himself quite a bit of money depending on how many PCs he needs._

 

 Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if you listen to the commercial products first...then you know how much of a value(or not) your home brew cable is.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Fact is that there are some good homebrew cables but most don't reach the quality of the best commercial cables..._

 

Always curious and not liking dismissing things prematurely, I was looking yesterday at the Black Sand power cord site and looking at the specs thought it looked like someone handy could put together one of these. 

 * Terminated with Ultra High quality Marinco 15A Hospital Grade Male Plug and Wattgate 15A IEC Connector. This cord can be configured for 20amp use. Email for a quote
 * 12 AWG - 3 Copper conductor (Stranded) that has been treated for enhanced current flow.
 * Entire assembly is EMF & RF shielded
 * Temperature range: -40ºC to +90ºC.
 * Voltage rating: 300 volts continuous. (Tested at over 1850 watts!)
 * Max. Amps @ 120V: 60
 * Final cord is bench tested and burned in before it goes out the door!
 * The Black Max uses the same wire as the Chromium but no cryo, no demagnetizing, no CAIG (conductivity enhancer).


 The other reaction was of personal alarm bells going off every time I see vague descriptions eg:"treated for enhanced current flow". 
 Treated how? With what?

 I'd like to try some different power cords just for the hell of it but I'd really like a proper explanation by the assembler.


----------



## markl

Quote:


 The other reaction was of personal alarm bells going off every time I see vague descriptions eg:"treated for enhanced current flow". 
 Treated how? With what? 
 

 I've actually been told by John what the treatment is. But it's his trade secret and I will not divulge. Suffice to say, it's something that no one else I know of is doing and not inexpensive. The degree to which it contributes to the great sound of the Violet I can't say for sure as I've never heard one without the treatment. I can say that the Violet has a totally unique sound all its own, though, and given that this treatment appears to be the main unusual feature of the cord leads me to believe it is truly effective.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've actually been told by John what the treatment is. But it's his trade secret and I will not divulge. Suffice to say, it's something that no one else I know of is doing and not inexpensive. The degree to which it contributes to the great sound of the Violet I can't say for sure as I've never heard one without the treatment. I can say that the Violet has a totally unique sound all its own, though, and given that this treatment appears to be the main unusual feature of the cord leads me to believe it is truly effective._

 

fact is that some cables with cryo treatment don't sound as good as some cables without cryo treatment...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 What cryo does is making the internal crystal structure different then it was before...same as using single crystal structure instead of normal cables...one is more efficient then the other hence the difference or better sound...

 so, changing the crystal structure of silver or copper can result in better conductance and better sound...

 Eyeteeth...

 looking at the specs of that cable i would say that the specs are rated voor high power consumption...thus power amps etc will like the cable because it can deliver (it lets go through) loads of current...


----------



## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've actually been told by John what the treatment is. But it's his trade secret and I will not divulge. Suffice to say, it's something that no one else I know of is doing and not inexpensive. The degree to which it contributes to the great sound of the Violet I can't say for sure as I've never heard one without the treatment. I can say that the Violet has a totally unique sound all its own, though, and given that this treatment appears to be the main unusual feature of the cord leads me to believe it is truly effective._

 

Thanks...yeah I do understand someone not wanting to give the full recipe out. I'm not sure what the level of faith or cynicism is amongst the full audiophile population but I can't help reading the advertisements with a cold eye and wishing for more than promises. I think I should take a cold eyed look at the advertisements of amps, speakers etc, to be fair.  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_fact is that some cables with cryo treatment don't sound as good as some cables without cryo treatment...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Speaking of cryo, it was Black Sand that admitted in an exchange with some forum guys that cryo doesn't do anything (at least for their products) but added the treatment due to consumer demand. That was enough to deeply offend the sensibilities of those ready to be offended.


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *markl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've actually been told by John what the treatment is. But it's his trade secret and I will not divulge. Suffice to say, it's something that no one else I know of is doing and not inexpensive. The degree to which it contributes to the great sound of the Violet I can't say for sure as I've never heard one without the treatment. I can say that the Violet has a totally unique sound all its own, though, and given that this treatment appears to be the main unusual feature of the cord leads me to believe it is truly effective._

 

 Quote:


 * 12 AWG - 3 Copper conductor (Stranded) that has been treated for enhanced current flow. 
 

This lets me think that he's using a method to alter the internal crystal structure like cryo treatment to enhance the conductivity of a cable...


----------



## markl

It's not cryo treatment. Everyone does that. His thing is unique to him.


----------



## PhilS

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm not sure what the level of faith or cynicism is amongst the full audiophile population but I can't help reading the advertisements with a cold eye and wishing for more than promises._

 

I don't know why this popped into my head when you said this, but I often wish the somewhat vague and obscure language used to sell audio products was used on TV to sell things like erectile dysfunction products and treatments for urinary problems caused by prostrate problems. Now _*that's *_where we could lose a little less detail (e.g., "erections lasting more than four hours," "weak stream," etc.)


----------



## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *PhilS* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I don't know why this popped into my head when you said this, but I often wish the somewhat vague and obscure language used to sell audio products was used on TV to sell things like erectile dysfunction products and treatments for urinary problems caused by prostrate problems. Now *that's *where we could lose a little less detail (e.g., "erections lasting more than four hours," "weak stream," etc.) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Next thing will be the viagra pil to make the system sound better longer!


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *eyeteeth* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks...yeah I do understand someone not wanting to give the full recipe out. I'm not sure what the level of faith or cynicism is amongst the full audiophile population but I can't help reading the advertisements with a cold eye and wishing for more than promises. I think I should take a cold eyed look at the advertisements of amps, speakers etc, to be fair. Speaking of cryo, it was Black Sand that admitted in an exchange with some forum guys that cryo doesn't do anything (at least for their products) but added the treatment due to consumer demand. That was enough to deeply offend the sensibilities of those ready to be offended. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Strange...when you heat metal or copper and cool it suddenly intensly, you alter the structure of the internal crystals...metal becomes (much) stronger and apperently copper becomes more efficient in conducting...The crystal structure is altered in such a way that it has less resistance and conducts more efficiently...well, that's the theory anway... i am sure it works for metal for sure...

 Maybe this trick only works when you actually produce the copper cores and not afterwards...so, during the proces of making cables i can understand why it works and afterwards cryo treating cables i understand why it doesn't or to a lesser degree! Once the metal/copper/silver is hardened, i think it won't alter the structure to a degree as including it in the actual constructing proces itself.

 I dunno if it helps..i never compared the same cables with or without cryo treatment...


 these are the most important variabels influencing sound...

 Key Factors Affecting Cables 
 Sonic differences between cables are influenced by four particular factors that affect the behavior of the complex electron flow – 
 1) conductor metal
 2) insulation material
 3) geometry of the strand configuration
 4) the mechanical integrity of connectors (plugs and spade lugs).


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## eyeteeth

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Next thing will be the viagra pil to make the system sound better longer!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








_

 

Wine is fine. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Strange...when you heat metal or copper and cool it suddenly intensly, you alter the structure of the internal crystals...metal becomes (much) stronger and apperently copper becomes more efficient in conducting...The crystal structure is altered in such a way that it has less resistance and conducts more efficiently...well, that's the theory anway... i am sure it works for metal for sure...

 Maybe this trick only works when you actually produce the copper cores and not afterwards...so, during the proces of making cables i can understand why it works and afterwards cryo treating cables i understand why it doesn't or to a lesser degree! Once the metal/copper/silver is hardened, i think it won't alter the structure to a degree as including it in the actual constructing proces itself.

 I dunno if it helps..i never compared the same cables with or without cryo treatment...


 these are the most important variabels influencing sound...

 Key Factors Affecting Cables 
 Sonic differences between cables are influenced by four particular factors that affect the behavior of the complex electron flow – 
 1) conductor metal
 2) insulation material
 3) geometry of the strand configuration
 4) the mechanical integrity of connectors (plugs and spade lugs)._

 

Your key factors seems reasonable, although I'm no techie. As for the cryo, without fully knowing, I'd guess it's pure bunk. An ABX would be the one and only way to know for sure if you hear a difference. I can't help myself, once I see someone say they're letting their cable or cord "burn-in", their observational opinion gets downgraded to interesting but unreliable. I feel they are at the mercy of their fantasies.


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## Herandu

I used to work for a company who manufactures some of this snake oil. Not that they sell it as such. mind you. I know we made a particular lead out of very cheap copper from Nimbo, China. That went on a cheap trailing socket, which was once assembled by prisoners of HMS as part of a job retraining opportunity. We also did mains plugs, and one we decided to gold plate. A famous UK brand company bought that cheap copper cable, trailing socket and mains plug. They put a bit of marketing spin on it, and have been selling it at 10 times the cost of manufacturing. Got very good reviews in various magazines. Oh, they put a shroud over the mains cable, and marked the item as 'Made in Britain". 
 So after seeing all that, I am not impressed by any claims from any cable manufacturer when they say their cable has sonic qualities in excess of others. If those cables have been made to the international approval standards, then such claims are pure fantasy. Otherwise they would be in breach of the regulations in terms of how it was manufactured, its tolerances, the composition of the material, and its thickness.

 Audio and video cables are not subjected to such stringent approvals, so they can be different. But not mains, networking (CAT5), USB, FIREWIRE.


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## Black Stuart

PhilS,
 Yes, snake oil advertising always makes me take 10 steps backward whilst placing an iron grip on my wallet.

 Tourmaline is correct about heat treatment altering the crystal structure of metal BUT if you suddenly drop the temperature on most metals they become very brittle.

 The reason I latched onto the mil. spec. wire I have used to make the PC for Tourmaline to try is it's spec. - 19 strands, exceeds ASTM B298 standards for silver depth/coverage/adhesion/fully annealed, large grain and heat softened. C101/102 pure copper wire.

 I am convinced that the best commercial offerings use (surprise,surprise) the best materials - more impurities/less flow.

 The recipe I offered trose49 can be doubled for power amps but then there is the problem of fitting all that cable inside the connectors. The wire I have used is rated to 600V, so, maybe more strands are simply not nec.

 Other wire I use for I/Cs is rated at 1200V, again this is mil. spec wire - why use any other.

 It does seem that stranded wire is better for PCs but my ears have told me that stranded simply does not have the clarity of solid core for signal wire. Which is why all my equipment has solid core for chassis wire and I/Cs.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PhilS,
 Yes, snake oil advertising always makes me take 10 steps backward whilst placing an iron grip on my wallet.

 Tourmaline is correct about heat treatment altering the crystal structure of metal BUT if you suddenly drop the temperature on most metals they become very brittle.

 The reason I latched onto the mil. spec. wire I have used to make the PC for Tourmaline to try is it's spec. - 19 strands, exceeds ASTM B298 standards for silver depth/coverage/adhesion/fully annealed, large grain and heat softened. C101/102 pure copper wire.

 I am convinced that the best commercial offerings use (surprise,surprise) the best materials - more impurities/less flow.

 The recipe I offered trose49 can be doubled for power amps but then there is the problem of fitting all that cable inside the connectors. The wire I have used is rated to 600V, so, maybe more strands are simply not nec.

 Other wire I use for I/Cs is rated at 1200V, again this is mil. spec wire - why use any other.

 It does seem that stranded wire is better for PCs but my ears have told me that stranded simply does not have the clarity of solid core for signal wire. Which is why all my equipment has solid core for chassis wire and I/Cs._

 

Nope, japanese used this technique to harden their swords...nowadays this technique is also used to harden the steel...heating and then cooling it at very low temeratures makes the steel much stronger...but not necessarely brittle...


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## Sovkiller

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *tourmaline* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Nope, japanese used this technique to harden their swords...nowadays this technique is also used to harden the steel...heating and then cooling it at very low temeratures makes the steel much stronger...but not necessarely brittle..._

 

Be careful with this techniques, Ok, a hardened steel power cord could be really dangerous, specially if you can't plug it in after, due to the stiffness.....


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## bigshot

As we speak, audiophiles all over the world are jamming Japanese swords in their wall sockets...

 See ya
 Steve


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *bigshot* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_As we speak, audiophiles all over the world are jamming Japanese swords in their wall sockets...

 See ya
 Steve_

 

Only the same cooling and hardening technique...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 This was by far a bigshot...near the bow...


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## Black Stuart

Bigshot,
 that was a beauty.

 Tourmaline - the Japanese swordmasters were the best this planet has ever seen. But then a katana is an incredible construction. The steel was hammered over and over again relentlessly until the finished sword was in effect hundreds of layers of steel.

 The heating and cooling was a black art. European swords were by comparison primitive - a prime example was my people's version the Claymore.


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## tourmaline

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Black Stuart* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Bigshot,
 that was a beauty.

 Tourmaline - the Japanese swordmasters were the best this planet has ever seen. But then a katana is an incredible construction. The steel was hammered over and over again relentlessly until the finished sword was in effect hundreds of layers of steel.

 The heating and cooling was a black art. European swords were by comparison primitive - a prime example was my people's version the Claymore._

 

Japanese were not the first though, stuart. In England, they found celtic swords also folded like the japanese swords but they date much, much earlier...scientist now believe that the japanese were not the first and learned it from europeans. japanese began in the 18th century, while these swords date back way much earlier.


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