# Tips for shopping and NOT buying into BS Cables - Coming from an ex-Sales Executive



## K93George

Ok, I worked the duration of my contract at a retail firm in Australia and I ended up in Home Entertainment thanks to my knowledge.  A few interesting and dirty tricks I discovered!

 Lets start with cables:

 We work not only off a sales target, the sales target is easy to get by selling highly-priced items such as a home theatre or TV.  We also need to hit that target with a percantage, that percantage being profit.  Example; I make $30,000 and smash the target BUT if that is at 5% profit, I have done poorly.  That is why they hesitate to drop the price, they want to make a profit to keep the % up!  Generally a TV is only a few % profit, sometimes negative and that can hurt you.  So in come the cables. 

 They don't care that the $200 HDMI cable is not worth the price, it has an enormous % and that will outweigh the negative % of the TV.  They are going to convince you otherwise and shoot garbage "facts" down your throat (not that the store I worked at did that, just keep reading).  Since I didn't even get bonuses and didn't have bills, a family and such I never participated in this game of survival.  I still managed to smash 10k (best for the day) on my first day 

 So to the point, a customer comes in annoyed at the crap he was told from another store.  "I just bought a new TV and he told me I need to buy this $200 cable!  I can't afford that and he is telling me if I don't get it, I can't get the most out of my TV"  This was a middle-aged man, who clearly didn't know what to look out for.  Truly disgusting tactics.

 I told him, and I am not joking; "We can also sell you a $200 HDMI cable if you like, the good thing about them is you can also wear them around your neck as jewellery".  He caught on of course, "So they are just for looks?"  "Well they aren't JUST looks but they may as well be, don't waste your money, we have $30 (cheapest we sold) HDMI cables that will do the same thing.  He came back for future purchases, because I didn't go for short term money!

 To the point, I can't stress this enough.  Don't EVER believe the sales hype around cables, especially digital cables.  Their are exceptions.  We sold 2 types of optical cables, 1 @ $20 and another @ $50.  When someone went to buy the cheaper cable (understandably) I would tell them that they better be ready to do a return because those cables are complete CRAP!  They would literally just stop working, we had 5 of them fail in store for no apparent reason, and the 2 I purchased failed at home also.

 I recommended 3 options to customers, either they (1) risk it and deal with returns, (2) spend the extra money for a better cable (literally), (3) go to another store and buy a different cable.

 Maybe I was a bad at sales, no not really.  I still smashed it each time and I was also honest.  If I wouldn't get it for myself I definitely wouldn't be pushing it on unexpected hard working customers.

 I might do some more threads, such as what they do in the home theatre rooms where you audition speakers.  That will truly shock you all. 

 So, to the point my friends!  It is all about the survival instinct, you or them.  This goes for the online overpriced cables as well, they want money from you, that is all.  Btw, the only reason I still don't work at my previous job is because of school.  Otherwise I would continue my crusade of spreading the truth


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## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





k93george said:


> If I wouldn't get it for myself I definitely wouldn't be pushing it on unexpected hard working customers.


 
   
  BRAVO!
   
  se


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## Willakan

$50 for an optical cable? I paid $5 for mine!
  Seriously though, it's nice to see that you sold stuff with integrity.


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## scootermafia

High end HDMI is where I draw the line on what I'm willing to actually buy for myself.  I have, however, gotten upgraded contact lenses, which is just about as good as a top flite HDMI cable.


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## K93George

Even the cheapest cables IMO were overpriced, and the markup..? We are talking multiple times the original amount with the high-end cables. I remember purchasing a few hundred $ worth of HDMI cables for close to $70, 3 "elite" HDMI cables lol. If your wondering on the markup on headphones. It depends, a popular Sennheiser pair that retailed for 200 cost under 100 for the store. A pair of high-end speakers that retailed for 3,000? I remember having my jaw drop when I heard these animals, they were huge, well built and sounded just amazing. I was thinking of getting them, but 3k? "They are amazing but they cost a bit!" I said to the manager. "Dont worry, think they are around 1,000 on staff". Online they sell for close to retail as well. The weirdest thing is that audio has the highest markup of all. TVs and computers have almost nothing, but audio? Anything audio related is insanely marked. Wish I still worked there to spill the beans, be like an insider LOL. Fortunately online shopping is there to help, sort of  I have always wondered though, with computers vs. Speakers, is it that with a computer the manufacture makes all the money and with speakers they share some of that wealth with the retailer? A bit like the iPhone 4 vs. Any other phone essentially. No markup what so ever in the iPhone 4 or any Apple product but for a better spec'd Android phone... It can be $100-200 profit.


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





k93george said:


> Even the cheapest cables IMO were overpriced, and the markup..? We are talking multiple times the original amount with the high-end cables. I remember purchasing a few hundred $ worth of HDMI cables for close to $70, 3 "elite" HDMI cables lol. If your wondering on the markup on headphones. It depends, a popular Sennheiser pair that retailed for 200 cost under 100 for the store. A pair of high-end speakers that retailed for 3,000? I remember having my jaw drop when I heard these animals, they were huge, well built and sounded just amazing. I was thinking of getting them, but 3k? "They are amazing but they cost a bit!" I said to the manager. "Dont worry, think they are around 1,000 on staff". Online they sell for close to retail as well. The weirdest thing is that audio has the highest markup of all. TVs and computers have almost nothing, but audio? Anything audio related is insanely marked. Wish I still worked there to spill the beans, be like an insider LOL. Fortunately online shopping is there to help, sort of  I have always wondered though, with computers vs. Speakers, is it that with a computer the manufacture makes all the money and with speakers they share some of that wealth with the retailer? A bit like the iPhone 4 vs. Any other phone essentially. No markup what so ever in the iPhone 4 or any Apple product but for a better spec'd Android phone... It can be $100-200 profit.


 

 There is no money in selling computers because they are a commodity. Most are made in China by a few OEMs, and there's enormous pressure to undercut the next guy. If Acer can pack in a bit more ram or a faster processor than Dell can for the money they'll do that, and then hope to make up for their lost profit with more volume. Apple doesn't work that way. They sell on their brand, not by having a few more GB than the next guy. That's how they get away with the "Apple Tax". They can charge $1800 for the same level of hardware that Dell charges $1,000 for, and if you want an Apple, you'll pay it.
   
  A profit margin of 5-1 or more is certainly not uncommon in high-end. It comes with the territory. High-end companies want a 2 or 3 to 1 return from their dealers, who in turn want another 2 or 3 to 1 return from you. They don't sell that much, so they need the margins. If you don't want to support that system, that's where companies like Odyssey, Salk, and Tyler come in.


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## Uncle Erik

I am sure the cable believers will come in here and insist that specialty cables from small manufacturers are "better" than what is found at consumer retail.

Of course they are.

Because a small manufacturer has no interest in a profit and each is a paragon of virtue. No matter that they are selling $20 of materials for $500, they are standing up to the Evil Scientific Conspiracy that is bent on destroying the "fun" of audio. These horrific conspirators also insist that ears are a poor measurement tool even though they are a poor measurement tool and have the nerve to suggest that humans are subject to their own psychology instead of being machine-like. Ridiculous!

So you must buy very, very, very expensive cables.

Never mind the garden hoses, wires stuck in the freezer next to the fish sticks, and manufacturers who can't tell which way to wire their power cords.

None of that matters. It's more important to spend a lot of money on cables to "stick it to" the people who think that a $3 cable would make you just as happy. Those folks are jus trying to ruin things and spoil fun. The people you should really trust are those selling Home Depot wire in Techflex at a 7,000% markup. And you should trust those people because they tell you that you should trust them. It makes complete sense.


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## Willakan

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> I am sure the cable believers will come in here and insist that specialty cables from small manufacturers are "better" than what is found at consumer retail.
> 
> Of course they are.
> 
> ...


 
  It's stramge. In most markets the consumer is seen as of paramount importance. Here, the benefit of the doubt is invariably given to the companies, all the while whilst the "consumers" declaim the atrociousness of criticising them...


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Never mind the garden hoses, wires stuck in the freezer next to the fish sticks, and manufacturers who can't tell which way to wire their power cords.
> 
> None of that matters. It's more important to spend a lot of money on cables to "stick it to" the people who think that a $3 cable would make you just as happy. Those folks are jus trying to ruin things and spoil fun. The people you should really trust are those selling Home Depot wire in Techflex at a 7,000% markup. And you should trust those people because they tell you that you should trust them. It makes complete sense.


 

 Make your own then. Even the highest quality solid core copper in teflon hook-up wire is not expensive at all, maybe $2/ft. If you use connectors with set screws, you don't even need a soldering iron. You can make power cords out of shielded Belden 3/14 and some Marincos or Hubbells in maybe 20 minutes.


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## Prog Rock Man

Last night The Gadget Show, a prime time UK entertainment programme which does (often daft) reviews went serious for a moment and warned people that they thought expensive HDMI cables being pushed on customers of TVs are a rip off.


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## buffalowings

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> Last night The Gadget Show, a prime time UK entertainment programme which does (often daft) reviews went serious for a moment and warned people that they thought expensive HDMI cables being pushed on customers of TVs are a rip off.


 


  I got my first HDMI cable for $9.00 from newegg...it was dead on arrival so..i went on amazon, found cables for $1.00 each (6ft) and bought 4, just in case the first three are broken too


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## Elysian

Great post OP.
   
  Just to add something, I've heard there there's a small, audible difference on USB cables due to how USB carries both data and power.  The higher-end USB cables physically separate the data and power wires from each other.  A lot of people who feed their D/A with USB swear by this, but I haven't tested myself so I can't say one way or another.
   
  I think this is a diagram of how it's designed:
   

   
   
  I'm pretty sure HDMI doesn't carry power, so anything beyond industry specs is throwing money into a well.


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





elysian said:


> Great post OP.
> 
> I'm pretty sure HDMI doesn't carry power, so anything beyond industry specs is throwing money into a well.


 

 HDMI carries a hell of a lot of information, but not power. When used as a digital video cable, the signal should either work or not work. Our eyes are actually not that sensitive, but test equipment is and should be able to pick up video output quality differences when the same TV or projector is connected with a $10 HDMI cable and a $200 cable. As far as I know, there has been no measured report showing any differences. When you get to the absolute maximum of length that the HDMI spec allows, a higher quality cable may allow for the signal to keep working while a cheap one may not. At a typical length of a few meters though, there should be no difference.


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## JRG1990

Quote: 





elysian said:


> Great post OP.
> 
> Just to add something, I've heard there there's a small, audible difference on USB cables due to how USB carries both data and power.  The higher-end USB cables physically separate the data and power wires from each other.  A lot of people who feed their D/A with USB swear by this, but I haven't tested myself so I can't say one way or another.
> 
> ...


 


 Maybe so but most dacs are mains powered so a cable like that would make no difference.


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## JRG1990

Snake oil cables are easy to spot, they always really expensive , have a fancy eye candy design , use phases such as "better soundstage" "tighter bass" in the marketing and some are designed to elimate problems that don't really exist in the first place like skin effect.


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





jrg1990 said:


> Maybe so but most dacs are mains powered so a cable like that would make no difference.


 

 There is still noise interference from the bus power. Would you want the S/Pdif signal and AC power going to the DAC to both be inside one cable? Of course not. Power and signal should never be mixed. The problem is that USB was designed to power and transmit receive data from a storage device, where this relatively small interference has no impact. Nobody who designed the universal serial bus ever thought it would be used for audiophile grade, real time music streaming.


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## cifani090

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> I am sure the cable believers will come in here and insist that specialty cables from small manufacturers are "better" than what is found at consumer retail.
> 
> Of course they are.
> 
> ...


 

 Not trying to pick on or bully you. But IMO if you buy something better quality, and your more satisfied with it, it will last longer; at least in my cases. Also IMO (lets not screw up this thread) i do hear a change in the sound sig from the cable. Its like people saying different speaker or headphones, amps,etc; are all the same. They are! But their are minuet differences that change them. And really who doesn't love a cable as thick as garden hoses, or that come in pretty boxes, with solid aluminum splitters,etc?


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## K93George

Quote: 





cifani090 said:


> Not trying to pick on or bully you. But IMO if you buy something better quality, and your more satisfied with it, it will last longer; at least in my cases. Also IMO (lets not screw up this thread) i do hear a change in the sound sig from the cable. Its like people saying different speaker or headphones, amps,etc; are all the same. They are! But their are minuet differences that change them. And really who doesn't love a cable as thick as garden hoses, or that come in pretty boxes, with solid aluminum splitters,etc?


 


 I can relate, I myself bought some "elite" cables costing into the few hundred mark.  I of course got these at a discount that brought them closer to $70.  3x 3m HDMI cables.  I noticed no difference at all, but it does have that WOW factor when looking at the back of the AV/ Reciever lol  Quite sad really...

 The entire point of the thread is to warn people that there is an enormous mark up in cables.  Cables are accessories, and accessories are sold at stores to outweigh the low % on the bigger ticket items.  When I sold a TV/ Blu-Ray player, home theatre etc.  I would take the customer to the cable section and first ask what size cable would be needed.  I could then find a cable of that size, and it would always be the "cheapest".  I never had a customer complain about buying the "cheapest" cable which was still $30.

 There was this odd time an "audiophile" came in and wanted to check out our collection of RCA cables.  It was around $50 for these cables the size of a garden hose.  "Do you have anything better?"  He asked.  I looked at him, "what are you running that would need elite cables?"  We ended up getting in this 40min discussion, or more so, it was him bragging and dissing today's technology.  He promised (literally) to come back with some photo's of his set.  A week later in comes the same person with photo's of this vintage set of elite components.  Not a single digital component.  Still wanting better cables!  We didn't actually have anything "better".  It was going to be a gift for his son.  I tried to tell him that expensive cables don't make the best gift.  Turns out his son was an "audiophile" as well.  Long story short, he left and continued his quest to find the most expensive cables he could find for no other reason then being expensive.


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## K93George

Also, for anyone wondering why I didn't discount the rip off cables, well I use to untill I got told "That isn't your money to discount, it doesn't matter how much profit you are making. The more the better!"  The funny thing is, I got in trouble for knocking off $5!  I dropped $5 from the price of a cable that made 10x that in profit and I got called up for it.  I was also told off for selling cheap cables.  If it wasn't for my high sale figures I may have truly lost my job. Just remember that before you get angry at the salesperson.

 He/ she may be under a serious amount of pressure to sell these rip off cables and needs to pay for his/ her own expenses, such as family, loans etc.  The best thing to do would be to simply refuse, and if you keep getting pushed, like that poor middle-aged man...  Simply leave and go elsewhere.  Better yet!  Get online and save yourself the tense salesfloor and your pocket


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





k93george said:


> There was this odd time an "audiophile" came in and wanted to check out our collection of RCA cables.  It was around $50 for these cables the size of a garden hose.  "Do you have anything better?"  He asked.  I looked at him, "what are you running that would need elite cables?"  We ended up getting in this 40min discussion, or more so, it was him bragging and dissing today's technology.  He promised (literally) to come back with some photo's of his set.  A week later in comes the same person with photo's of this vintage set of elite components.  Not a single digital component.  Still wanting better cables!  We didn't actually have anything "better".  It was going to be a gift for his son.  I tried to tell him that expensive cables don't make the best gift.  Turns out his son was an "audiophile" as well.  Long story short, he left and continued his quest to find the most expensive cables he could find for no other reason then being expensive.


 

 The big time cable brands are usually only sold by high-end dealers. $50 won't even get you in the door at Nordost, Siltech, et al. Some brands like Audioquest and Wireworld do have cables at $50 and below, but it's their absolute bottom of the barrel stuff. At the extreme other end, Siltech, Tara, Stealth, and Jorma all sell cables that list for over $10,000.


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## alv4426

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> At the extreme other end, Siltech, Tara, Stealth, and Jorma all sell cables that list for over $10,000.


 
  Yea but they are made from the souls of the innocent... totally worth it.


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## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> The big time cable brands are usually only sold by high-end dealers. $50 won't even get you in the door at Nordost, Siltech, et al. Some brands like Audioquest and Wireworld do have cables at $50 and below, but it's their absolute bottom of the barrel stuff. At the extreme other end, Siltech, Tara, Stealth, and Jorma all sell cables that list for over $10,000.


 

 I was wondering when this slight distinction would be pointed out.
   
   
  I wouldn't buy any cables for my systems from any regular retailer for the reasons stated by the OP ...they sell over priced garbage. For the record I prefer MIT (impedance matched to the gear the cables are connected to), Nordost, AQ, and a bunch of DIY types of my own design. There is no way I could build a MIT cable for less than what they cost retail without having to rip apart the CVT terminators or the impedance network boxes and hope that finding parts for the build don't cost a small fortune (highly unlikely)..that being said a lot of expensive cables are no better than the decent quality cheaper stuff....the hard part is identifying the good stuff from the mediocre. I have also found over the years that MIT has managed to deliver the most consistent performance across all types of gear I've used, vastly outperforming regular but in the context of this threads subject , some really expensive name brands. I found AQ to be rather ordinary (the IC's anyway) while the AQ speaker cables (Slate, Mammoth for example) to be good performers, certainly better than 12 awg stranded copper sold in most box stores in bulk (50 ft for 60 bucks for example). Anyhow such observations are highly subjective ........this argument is likely the oldest and most contentious of all of them in the audiophile community, the controversy started with the first real half decent cables built back in late 70's when pot metal jacks/speaker terminals, paper thin unshielded ICs with horrible RCA connecters (molded plastic) and lamp cord sold in bulk (18 awg for god's sake) was all we had. Viva la cable, connector,speaker post, etc revolution I say 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
  Peete.


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> I was wondering when this slight distinction would be pointed out.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't buy any cables for my systems from any regular retailer for the reasons stated by the OP ...they sell over priced garbage. For the record I prefer MIT (impedance matched to the gear the cables are connected to), Nordost, AQ, and a bunch of DIY types of my own design. There is no way I could build a MIT cable for less than what they cost retail without having to rip apart the CVT terminators or the impedance network boxes and hope that finding parts for the build don't cost a small fortune (highly unlikely)..that being said a lot of expensive cables are no better than the decent quality cheaper stuff....the hard part is identifying the good stuff from the mediocre. I have also found over the years that MIT has managed to deliver the most consistent performance across all types of gear I've used, vastly outperforming regular but in the context of this threads subject , some really expensive name brands. I found AQ to be rather ordinary (the IC's anyway) while the AQ speaker cables (Slate, Mammoth for example) to be good performers, certainly better than 12 awg stranded copper sold in most box stores in bulk (50 ft for 60 bucks for example). Anyhow such observations are highly subjective ........this argument is likely the oldest and most contentious of all of them in the audiophile community, the controversy started with the first real half decent cables built back in late 70's when pot metal jacks/speaker terminals, paper thin unshielded ICs with horrible RCA connecters (molded plastic) and lamp cord sold in bulk (18 awg for god's sake) was all we had. Viva la cable, connector,speaker post, etc revolution I say
> ...


 

 We're opening up a can of worms here Peete 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



   
  The big box chain electronics cables are almost without a doubt Monster Cable. That's their wheelhouse, selling overpriced junk to people who are told they "need" them, and how Noel Lee affords his Ferraris. MITs are not as exotic as they seem. The metals they use are nothing particularly special (mostly silver plated copper), and at least inside the Shotgun and Magnum lines are just zobel networks. It wouldn't cost a fortune at all to make that kind of thing, just a bit of electrical know how. The Oracle boxes I think are a bit more involved, they better be for that kind of cash. MIT has never been known as being any kind of great value, in fact if you're looking for somebody to blame for the current environment of 5 figure cables, well you can lay that blame at MIT's doorstep.
   
  That said, Spectral swears by them, and I definitely have respect for Spectral's audio engineering chops. I really don't like Nordost's flatline cables because they are so darn delicate. Also, the Nordost house sound is bass lean and treble tilted, which doesn't appeal to me at all. The stuff that Audioquest sells for a few hundred bucks is decent, but I wouldn't go much further than that with them. Audioquest never changes their wire geometries, ever. They just change names and colors, and they added that silly and useless battery system to make a buck.
   
  Brands I like: Audio-Magic, Kimber Select, Kubala Sosna, and Siltech. I've also heard extremely good things about 6Sons Audio, but I have no personal experience with them. In my system I use Kubala Sosna Emotion and Siltech Classic Anniversary.


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## Omega17TheTrue

Some audiophiles spit on overpriced cables but somewhat justify their own vastly overpriced source/DAC/amp but they are feeling smartest than companies marketing techniques and other gullible buyers just by not buying overpriced exotic cables, but its the same ! Science also can't prove that a $50 DAC is any better than one million one and even some blind-tests.


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## Elysian

No, it's not the same.  Properly designed amps and DACs are designed using universally known principles in electrical engineering, while the chips are a combination of various technical disciplines (computer science, applied mathematics, systems engineering, in addition to electrical engineering, etc.).
   
  The benefit from cables are largely circumstantial.


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## Omega17TheTrue

The very same can also be said about cables but all that really matter is ABX blind tests between different components everything else is just placebo, everyone know it.


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## Elysian

Yes, because humans are fantastic at objective sensory analysis and interpretation.


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## K93George

I just went in to buy an HDMI cable for the TV downstairs and it was $50 for a 1.5m cable!  Fortunately knowing a few people I was able to learn the staff price and it was $15, cost would be even lower.  I got it for $20 which is still overpriced.

 As for spending into the 5 digit region for cables.  WHAT?!  Did you ever come to think that the internals of the device are more limiting.  It reminds me of individuals in Australia who were buying into HDMI cables costing close to $300 for their PS3.  Firstly, we are talking about a digital signal, you will know if there are issues with the cable.  Think DTV.  Other then that, the PS3 does not have internal connections of that _quality_

 As for speaker cables costing as much as a car.  That is insane!  Don't just look at what sort of cable is running from the x/over to the driver but what the voice coil uses for the connection to the driver terminals.  That will be the most limiting, not the cables running on/ above your floor.  That also reminds of something...  The voice coil is all wire and it is made up of some basic stuff.  We are feeding it with exotic cables.  Lets say you manage to replace the wires running from the amp to the speakers with 5 digit stuff, not only would you need to replace the internal wiring in the enclosure but the wires going from the voice coil to the driver terminals or is that were we all draw the line?  Why not replace the voice coil as well!  Don't forget the internals of your amp either...

 Lets make a cable; it will be sold in a variety of packages differing by the amount of 0.1mm strands.  You could order 480 solid silver strands split into "cores" of 8, (80 strands to a core) the cores are plated with 24k gold, wrapped in a plastic mesh (grid type thing) for structal integrity while being flexible, that (plastic mesh) is then dipped into a ceramic material to insulate the cable.  The connectors will be removable in case they are damaged and they also are solid silver plated with 24k.


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## Willakan

@ Elysian
  On the Sound Science forum you can find a few pages in a letter regarding someone who contacted the creators of the USB specification. They didn't think there was any advantage to "better" cables, even considering power being supplied through them.


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## Currawong

I buy second-hand Van Den Hul interconnect cables off of Audiogon because VDH don't advertise, so you end up neither paying the company's advertising budget, nor the store markup. They also make their cables from the raw materials themselves and build them to last forever. I did try a pair of Nordost Heimdalls once, but they caused audible tonal distortion. Other than that, I make my own mostly.  The kind of stores the OP is talking about, I wouldn't even go into frankly, as commission salesman just annoy me, frankly.


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## K93George

Quote: 





currawong said:


> ...The kind of stores the OP is talking about, I wouldn't even go into frankly, as commission salesman just annoy me, frankly...


 
   
  The place I worked at definitely was not a specialty store.  The best speakers they stocked were Dali Concept 10s.  Best amp was a TX-SR608 and best pair of earphones would be the CX870s.  Can't remember the headphone selection...  Not saying to avoid these stores completely, they are great for giving you an enormous selection of products and if you can find the same product in the large retailers they are most likely if not always going to be cheaper then an elite audio store and I can confirm that on countless occasions.


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## Frank I

The profit on cables for dealers is 80 points. If you paid 200.00 for a cable the dealer paid 40.00. Cables is the biggest markup in the industry. Speakers work at 50-60 pts depending on the manufacturer. My dealer told me what his cost were and he sells mega priced systems.  Amazon  has 158.00 Diamondback cables for 75-85 shipped and every high end retailer sells them at list. So when you see cables that you want just ry to negotiate a reasonable price.


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## Frank I

Uncle Eric brings up so many valid points regarding the High End.  I for one would like to see more companies produce value for dollar products. Schiit has done this and frankly IMO most of the stuff being sold today is so overpriced including all these flagship headphones.  I am also guilty of purchasing these headphones but what the hobby needs is more value. Decware is another company that produces value products. Many companies are making obscene profits on the products they produce IMO.


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## Elysian

Quote: 





willakan said:


> @ Elysian
> On the Sound Science forum you can find a few pages in a letter regarding someone who contacted the creators of the USB specification. They didn't think there was any advantage to "better" cables, even considering power being supplied through them.


 

 Interesting.  I'll go check it out, thanks.  Might save me from buying Wireworld Ultraviolet USB cables!


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





currawong said:


> I buy second-hand Van Den Hul interconnect cables off of Audiogon because VDH don't advertise, so you end up neither paying the company's advertising budget, nor the store markup. They also make their cables from the raw materials themselves and build them to last forever. I did try a pair of Nordost Heimdalls once, but they caused audible tonal distortion. Other than that, I make my own mostly.  The kind of stores the OP is talking about, I wouldn't even go into frankly, as commission salesman just annoy me, frankly.


 

 Yeah Nordost cables are definitely not neutral. The K-S and Siltech stuff I have is pretty much right down the middle, erring ever so slightly to the warm and sweet side which is how I like things to sound. My cables are also pretty much all from Audiogon. Cables have no moving parts and nothing ever really wears out, so buying used at a fraction of the retail makes a ton of sense.


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## DaveBSC

Quote: 





elysian said:


> Interesting.  I'll go check it out, thanks.  Might save me from buying Wireworld Ultraviolet USB cables!


 

 The Ultraviolet won't do all that much. If you want to experiment with high quality USB cables, try a Locus Polestar.


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## Prog Rock Man

That there is such a mark up on cables is entirely due to forums such as this where people claim all sorts of special powers for cables get free reign to post away, but those who caste doubt on such claims are marginalised.
   
  People have seen there is a market and feed it. That is easy to do as there is no real science behind what they do apart from what has been known since the 1800s.
   
  Yet go to USB.org and HDMI.org or ask a reputable organisation to test cables such as Which? consumer magazine and they say there is no difference so long as the cable is made to standard.
   
  I bought my HDMI cable for £5 off eBay, made by That Cable. I don't do BS audio salesmen and have bought hifi off the internet for a few years now to avoid them.


----------



## Elysian

I've disqualified high-end cables from my system unless someone wants to let me double-blind test with their high-end cables once my system's completed.  If I can find someone doing a fire sale on their used Locus cables, I'll consider it, but I usually don't see used cables take more than a 30-60% cut in price.
   
  The cables I'm currently looking to replace my stock cables with are:
  Signal Cable MagicPower & Silver Resolution Balanced
  Mogami standard balanced with Neutrik plugs
  (maybe) Canare Blue DA206
   
  Pros generally seem to stick by Mogami and Canare, so I don't think I need better than that.  I like what I've read about Signal Cable, so they look like they an interesting option.


----------



## pigmode

Great info in this thread, DaveBSC. I've done my share of cable experimentation, and have ended up with two ICs that suit a variety of needs. Those are the Luminous Audio Synchestra Reference, and the Grover Ultimate Reference R3. I doubt I'll be doing much experimenting anymore, but still need 2-3 ICs for system expansion---preferable used to avoid burn-in burnout.


----------



## Elysian

Hmm, those Grover Huffman cables look interesting, too.  The ICs are within the same price range as the reference-grade signal cable stuff, but the Signal Cable power cables are much cheaper.
   
  Those Furutech terminations cost a pretty penny!
   
  I wonder how well the SC MagicStrip compares against something like a Oyaide or Allied Wiremold.  Nice thing about the MagicStrip is you can get it with an extended cord.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





elysian said:


> The cables I'm currently looking to replace my stock cables with are:
> Signal Cable MagicPower & Silver Resolution Balanced
> Mogami standard balanced with Neutrik plugs
> (maybe) Canare Blue DA206
> ...


 

 The MagicPower is just some bulk wire in Techflex with some Marincos on it. It's fairly reasonably priced, but that's all it is. For the same money, buy yourself some DH Labs Power Plus bulk AC wire, and some Marinco or Hubbell connectors for a few bucks. It's much better wire than what Signal is using. For source components, Furutech FP-314AG is really nice for about $40/meter. Oyaide's PA-23 bulk AC is a little bit more, but it's excellent.
   
  The Silver Resolution balanced though I can vouch for. Very nice for the money. Mogami is probably the value king in cables. They sound better than they have any right to. Canare not so much.


----------



## Elysian

Thanks for the recommendations, very helpful.  I think I actually may just DIY the cables at this rate.  Looked at the prices and saw that the actual cables for even $200-600 cables are being sold from the manufacturer for about $0.93/ft.
   
  Is there a good place to read about the kinds of cables/wire available, and the best connectors/terminators to pair them with?  Is there a good thread I can read for the equipment I need to make a proper cable?  I have a lot of shop equipment on-hand, so if it's standard stuff, I probably have it all already.  The Oyaide and Furutek bulk wire suggestions look very attractive.
   
  The main thing I'm struggling with is that I'm going to have a cv transformer located 20ft or so away, so I need to figure out the best way to manage that distance in between.  I was thinking of having a good quality splitter run directly from the transformer, then use 1.5-2m cables to connect from the splitter to the amp, D/A, etc.  One thing I'm not sure about is if I need a fantastic cable for that 15-20 feet of distance between transformer and splitter, and if all the cables need to be the same, like if I had to stick with the Furutech or Oyaide throughout.  Qty2 4.5m cables and qty1 7m cable would probably run close to $700 for the wires alone for the Oyaide, and that doesn't count the connectors.
   
  Ofc, that's still far, far cheaper than buying everything premade, which would easily be in the thousands.


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





elysian said:


> Hmm, those Grover Huffman cables look interesting, too.  The ICs are within the same price range as the reference-grade signal cable stuff, but the Signal Cable power cables are much cheaper.


 


   
  Not to discourage, but his current ICs were to my ears flawed. Ymmv. In a moment of post concussive syndrome, I had sent in a fav, the Grover Silver Reference to be updated/rebuilt when what I really wanted was a repair. I ended up finding the Grover UR for $40. and its a keeper. His earlier cables that made his name ran from $80-140.
   
  I have Signal cables bookmarked, and would like to find a used pair of his silver ICs. In the meantime I'm going with what I know, and have picked up a set of silver Bogdans off the classified.


----------



## Chris_Himself

What if I have an audiophile TV though? 
   
  Lol digital cables are probably where I'd have to put my foot down


----------



## K93George

I'm sorry guys I just died of laughter after reading this Wiki article on "Speaker wire".  Let me quote a few parts...

*"Better purification of oxidizing materials such as copper is said to result in more consistent conductive properties throughout the length of the wire, but this is a non-issue in terms of its effect on sound quality."*

 What exactly is the point of silver then..?

 "*Even with poor-quality wire, an audible degradation of sound may not exist. Many supposedly audible differences in speaker wire can be attributed to listener bias or the placebo effect."*

 You guys are reading this right?  They just spat in the face of anything (speaker wire) even entry-level.

*"...manufacturers' practice of making claims about their products either with no valid engineering or scientific basis, or of no real-world significance."*

 Damn, Wiki is on a roll!

 This next one is almost a mockery of audiophiles...    "*Many manufacturers catering to audiophiles (as well as those supplying less expensive retail markets) also make unmeasurable, if poetic, claims about their wire sounding open, dynamic, or smooth. To justify these claims, many cite electrical properties such as skin effect, characteristic impedance of the cable, or resonance, which are generally little understood by consumers. None of these has any measurable effect at audio frequencies, though each matters at radio frequencies."*

 Wow, these people sound like con artists.  At least I understand what is making the difference in sound, some people have the superhuman ability to hear radio frequencies, how they got into the recording in the first place is beyond me, but some are hearing it


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





elysian said:


> Thanks for the recommendations, very helpful.  I think I actually may just DIY the cables at this rate.  Looked at the prices and saw that the actual cables for even $200-600 cables are being sold from the manufacturer for about $0.93/ft.
> 
> Is there a good place to read about the kinds of cables/wire available, and the best connectors/terminators to pair them with?  Is there a good thread I can read for the equipment I need to make a proper cable?  I have a lot of shop equipment on-hand, so if it's standard stuff, I probably have it all already.  The Oyaide and Furutek bulk wire suggestions look very attractive.
> 
> The main thing I'm struggling with is that I'm going to have a cv transformer located 20ft or so away, so I need to figure out the best way to manage that distance in between.  I was thinking of having a good quality splitter run directly from the transformer, then use 1.5-2m cables to connect from the splitter to the amp, D/A, etc.  One thing I'm not sure about is if I need a fantastic cable for that 15-20 feet of distance between transformer and splitter, and if all the cables need to be the same, like if I had to stick with the Furutech or Oyaide throughout.  Qty2 4.5m cables and qty1 7m cable would probably run close to $700 for the wires alone for the Oyaide, and that doesn't count the connectors.


 


 The Cable Co and Parts Connexion both have good selections of bulk wire. VH Audio also sells their own stuff in bulk, as well as wire from Neotech, Oyaide, Furutech, and Acrolink. Aside from bulk wire which just requires connectors and possibility a bit of soldering, there's also hook-up wire, which is just raw insulated or uninsulated wire and comes in stranded, round or rectangular solid core, or litz. I don't really recommend working with litz wire because its a PITA, each insulated strand has to be stripped in order to terminate it.
   
  You can just braid hook-up wire if you want and then add some plugs. That's all standard Kimber cables are. Three runs of Neotech teflon insulated 22AWG OCC solid core in a tri-braid would make for a really nice interconnect, at a total cost of about $6/ft. If you want to follow other types of spiral designs, you'll need hollow tubes to act as a support structure.
   
  For a long power cord run, I would use a large gauge (12AWG+ per leg) with a braided metal and foil shield. Very long power cords are susceptible to EMI and RF, and you want the shielding to block that out. If your using shielded bulk AC, you connect the shield at the wall end, (via the ground terminal) and leave it open at the component end. Connecting both sides turns the shield into an antenna, which is self defeating.
   
  Other than that, you need some glue lined heatshrink, which acts as a boot and holds the connectors and Techflex in place. If you want to work with multiple stranded conductors, I highly recommend using crimp sleeves. For power cables Marinco, Hubbell, and Wattgate plugs are all pretty similar and work equally well. The Shurter IECs are a few bucks cheaper, but a pain to work with.


----------



## JRG1990

Quote: 





k93george said:


> I'm sorry guys I just died of laughter after reading this Wiki article on "Speaker wire".  Let me quote a few parts...
> 
> *"Better purification of oxidizing materials such as copper is said to result in more consistent conductive properties throughout the length of the wire, but this is a non-issue in terms of its effect on sound quality."*
> 
> ...


 

  
  Large gauge , low resistance zip cord is best for speaker cables , if your told otherwise your being deceived.
  
   
  Quote: 





davebsc said:


> For a long power cord run, I would use a large gauge (12AWG+ per leg) with a braided metal and foil shield. Very long power cords are susceptible to EMI and RF, and you want the shielding to block that out. If your using shielded bulk AC, you connect the shield at the wall end, (via the ground terminal) and leave it open at the component end. Connecting both sides turns the shield into an antenna, which is self defeating.
> 
> Other than that, you need some glue lined heatshrink, which acts as a boot and holds the connectors and Techflex in place. If you want to work with multiple stranded conductors, I highly recommend using crimp sleeves. For power cables Marinco, Hubbell, and Wattgate plugs are all pretty similar and work equally well. The Shurter IECs are a few bucks cheaper, but a pain to work with.


 

 I always use this lapp cable for my long extension block runs, http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/cable-off-the-reel/291-lapp-olflex-classic-mains-cable.html .


----------



## K93George

Quote: 





jrg1990 said:


> Large gauge , low resistance zip cord is best for speaker cables , if your told otherwise your being deceived.


 

 Yes, even a large guage isn't needed though.  Especially not silver.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





k93george said:


> Yes, even a large guage isn't needed though.  Especially not silver.


 

 For full range speakers, I wouldn't recommend smaller than 13AWG per terminal. Shielded speaker cables are very uncommon, but there's a good argument for using the "self shielding" star-quad configuration, as opposed to typical two-wire parallel zip cord. Silver speaker cables are an expensive proposition, even if you make them yourself. DH Labs makes some of the more affordable silver hook-up wire, and it's still $15/ft for 18AWG. You'd need at least six runs for a speaker cable, so you're talking $90/ft.


----------



## DaBomb77766

As much as people hate Monster around here, how do their standard speaker cables stand up to other cables?  My dad got a short run of it for his (Bose...) speakers, and they seem to be of pretty good quality.  Nice and thick, good insulation and very flexible, and even after being there for several years there's not a single sign of corrosion at the ends of the cable.  Their speaker cables aren't ridiculously expensive either.
   
  Still though, I'm sure you could probably get something exactly the same for far less...


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





dabomb77766 said:


> Still though, I'm sure you could probably get something exactly the same for far less...


 
   
  Ayup. It's just OFC in PVC tubes, nothing to see here. That said, dirt cheap zip cord does tend to oxidize after a few years though. If you want to spend as little as possible on a good speaker cable, Mogami is your best option.


----------



## Elysian

My cv transformer (cvt) is about to arrive so I need to rearrange my listening area in order to keep the cvt away from my listening gear.  I don't have time to build a few set of cables right now, so I'm looking for a stopgap measure.
   
  Could someone please recommend a budget, properly built power cable that can be ordered as long as 15-20 feet lengths?  I was looking at stock Monoprice and Volex (off of newark.com).  The downside to the Volex was that I could only find it in 1-2meter lengths.  I'd imagine that the power coming from my cvt will be very clean, so I'm not expecting much change from a power cable.
   
  Also, just out of curiosity, I'm probably getting a power conditioner to protect my computer gear.  Will it make any effect on music played from the computer?  I know the internals of the computer are incredibly noisy electronically.  Consequently, will feeding the computer with a true sine wave (from the power conditioner) make any sort of difference?  On the other hand, computers are very good at dealing with electronic noise.  I'm debating between a higher-end CyberPower unit or quieter alternatives to cvts.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





elysian said:


> Could someone please recommend a budget, properly built power cable that can be ordered as long as 15-20 feet lengths?  I was looking at stock Monoprice and Volex (off of newark.com).  The downside to the Volex was that I could only find it in 1-2meter lengths.  I'd imagine that the power coming from my cvt will be very clean, so I'm not expecting much change from a power cable.
> 
> Also, just out of curiosity, I'm probably getting a power conditioner to protect my computer gear.  Will it make any effect on music played from the computer?  I know the internals of the computer are incredibly noisy electronically.  Consequently, will feeding the computer with a true sine wave (from the power conditioner) make any sort of difference?  On the other hand, computers are very good at dealing with electronic noise.  I'm debating between a higher-end CyberPower unit or quieter alternatives to cvts.


 

 Ram Electronics sells pre-terminated Belden 83803 AC wire up to 35 feet, and Belden 19364 wire up to 33 feet.
   
  Power conditioning a computer will make absolutely no difference to the sound. The computer's power supply barely cares about the incoming AC at all. As long as it's anywhere between 100-240V, that's good enough. AC line noise doesn't matter. What's more important is the quality of the computer PSU. The computer components do care about the quality of the DC they are receiving. A great PSU will have an iron grip on the 12V and 5V lines, and DC ripple should be as small as possible. If you do want to use a UPS, get one that is true sine wave. Active PFC power supplies don't like the cheap stuff.


----------



## JRG1990

Computers generate loads Rf themselfs, and computers power supplys are good enough at conditioning the power, a mains conditioner would be a complete waste of money.


----------



## Uncle Erik

For a long power cable, I'd just get a Home Depot extension cord and reterminate it as necessary.

As for a specialty cable or power conditioning for a computer, that's like installing a reverse-osmosis water filter for your toilet. I'm sure a marketer could find _some_ reason to sell you water filtration for a toilet. But your average switching power supply is a volcano of RFI emissions. It's a radio transmifter spewing hash over all sorts of frequencies. Think of it as a lawn sprinkler showering everything around it with radio noise. Feeding it pure power makes as much sense as, well, using specially filtered water in your toilet.


----------



## Elysian

Thanks for the thoughts.  I also thought that a good computer PSU would be sufficient for conditioning the power.  Chalk my question up to spending too much time reading other audiophile sites.  There's a lot of really eyebrow-raising talk about what you need to do to get the best sound possible out of your computer that makes no sense from an electronics perspective.
   
  I read that it's much better to use a perfect sinewave UPS (rather than a simulated sinewave UPS) so I'll keep that in mind.  The only reason I'm buying the unit is to protect my computer from any aberrancies in the power supply, without going overkill.  I can see the value of getting a proper transformer for equipment that you'd want to keep from being influenced (audio, measurement, etc.), but I assumed that it didn't matter what you fed into a computer because of what happens once the PSU starts feeding all the various components within the computer.
   
  I'll keep Ram Electronics in mind.  The way I'm going, I might just buy a cheap, bright yellow extension cable at Home Depot or Lowe's, since it seems pointless going beyond a functional AC cord for the PC.
   
  The only question is left is how many joules of AC suppression is worth going for.  $500 for a nice 2000 joules unit, while 1500 run about $350-400.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





elysian said:


> I'll keep Ram Electronics in mind.  The way I'm going, I might just buy a cheap, bright yellow extension cable at Home Depot or Lowe's, since it seems pointless going beyond a functional AC cord for the PC.
> 
> The only question is left is how many joules of AC suppression is worth going for.  $500 for a nice 2000 joules unit, while 1500 run about $350-400.


 

 You could also try VH Audio's Flavor 1 AC cord, which is fully shielded and covered in Techflex rather than just bulk wire. The price is pretty reasonable. Chris does custom lengths to probably any length required, but I'm not sure if there's an extra cost for that. Outdoor extension cable is fine for powering a computer, but I wouldn't recommend it with audio components.


----------



## Elysian

Interesting, thanks.  I had heard of VH Audio but never checked out the site.  It's good to hear that he does custom lengths, too.
   
  I've been thinking about your suggestion about the Oyaide PA-23 DIY cable every day   The cheapest bulk I can find is $54/m at A/V Solutions.  Would you have any other suggestions on where to look?  Some older posts say that the price used to be $40/m, but everything I've found is $54 to $60s.  I'd need to figure out what would be good to terminate the cables with.  One last thing I need to figure out is what to use for the power splitter.  The Oyaide chassis for a power splitter is $300 for the chassis alone!
   
  Also, what's your experience in the SQ from shielded vs unshielded power cables?  I've read opinions on both sides.  Some people said it definitely sounds cleaner and tighter with shielded cables, while other people say unshielded sounds fuller.


----------



## JRG1990

My experence is it really depends on the device, with my amp there is 0 difference in sound no matter what power cord is used, same for my cd player, my tv however there is noticeably less noise in the picture and deeper colours.with my shielded belden cord.


----------



## Lavcat

Quote: 





dabomb77766 said:


> As much as people hate Monster around here, how do their standard speaker cables stand up to other cables?  My dad got a short run of it for his (Bose...) speakers, and they seem to be of pretty good quality.  Nice and thick, good insulation and very flexible, and even after being there for several years there's not a single sign of corrosion at the ends of the cable.  Their speaker cables aren't ridiculously expensive either.
> 
> Still though, I'm sure you could probably get something exactly the same for far less...


 

 I bought two short lengths of Monster speaker cable some years ago.  I was not impressed when one of the spade lugs fell off.


----------



## Elysian

Quote: 





dabomb77766 said:


> As much as people hate Monster around here, how do their standard speaker cables stand up to other cables?  My dad got a short run of it for his (Bose...) speakers, and they seem to be of pretty good quality.  Nice and thick, good insulation and very flexible, and even after being there for several years there's not a single sign of corrosion at the ends of the cable.  Their speaker cables aren't ridiculously expensive either.
> 
> Still though, I'm sure you could probably get something exactly the same for far less...


 
   
  http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239
   
  Probably significantly cheaper and just as good.  Even if it does fall apart, you can usually get 2-3 units of equivalent Monoprice cables with the cost of an equivalently specced Monster.


----------



## DaBomb77766

Quote: 





elysian said:


> http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239
> 
> Probably significantly cheaper and just as good.  Even if it does fall apart, you can usually get 2-3 units of equivalent Monoprice cables with the cost of an equivalently specced Monster.


 


  Yeah, I'm sure that stuff works just as well.  Honestly though, I think the Monster cables look nicer. 
   
  I saw that there was some Rocketfish stuff that looked almost identical but was about 2/3 of the price.  Either way, it still really isn't that expensive...maybe about $50 for something like 20 feet of it at the very most.  Even ethernet cable tends to cost more than that locally.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





dabomb77766 said:


> I saw that there was some Rocketfish stuff that looked almost identical but was about 2/3 of the price.  Either way, it still really isn't that expensive...maybe about $50 for something like 20 feet of it at the very most.  Even ethernet cable tends to cost more than that locally.


 

 I don't think that's any kind of great deal. Belden 1309A sells for around $35 for 50 feet.


----------



## buffalowings

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> I don't think that's any kind of great deal. Belden 1309A sells for around $35 for 50 feet.


 


  I don't like rocketfish, they make way too many things for their own good (poop-joe screen protectors etc etc)


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





buffalowings said:


> I don't like rocketfish, they make way too many things for their own good (poop-joe screen protectors etc etc)


 

 They're a Best Buy brand. I'd never pay that company a cent.


----------



## DaBomb77766

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> I don't think that's any kind of great deal. Belden 1309A sells for around $35 for 50 feet.


 


  Well, I'm not really trying to defend Monster or anything, just saying that it could be far, far worse.  Like $200 for a two meter long HDMI cable from Monster.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





dabomb77766 said:


> Well, I'm not really trying to defend Monster or anything, just saying that it could be far, far worse.  Like $200 for a two meter long HDMI cable from Monster.


 
   
  That's true, paying only 2-3x as much as you should I guess is less awful than paying 5-10x as much as you should. Bird flu is also less awful than bubonic plague.


----------



## DaBomb77766

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> That's true, paying only 2-3x as much as you should I guess is less awful than paying 5-10x as much as you should. Bird flu is also less awful than bubonic plague.


 

  
  To be honest, I'd never pay for those cables myself.  It was my dad who bought them, not me. 
   
  But unfortunately, it's pretty hard to get good quality cables in Canada for a reasonable price.  Ordering things from monoprice, for example, is pretty expensive due to shipping...


----------



## DaveBSC

Do you have online sellers that carry contractor type wire? Belden, JSC, and Carol are the ones I know of, and they all make quality stuff.


----------



## chronicled

Good to know. Don't go incredibly cheap but don't waste spending $200 on a wire either. But seriously who would spend $200 on a cable.


----------



## buffalowings

Quote: 





chronicled said:


> Good to know. Don't go incredibly cheap but don't waste spending $200 on a wire either. But seriously who would spend $200 on a cable.


 


  head-fi would.. >_>


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





chronicled said:


> Good to know. Don't go incredibly cheap but don't waste spending $200 on a wire either. But seriously who would spend $200 on a cable.


 
  :::raises hand:::


----------



## Willakan

Quote:


davebsc said:


> :::raises hand:::


  :::Throws egg:::


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





willakan said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> davebsc said:
> ...


 

 :::ducks:::
   
  se


----------



## pigmode

Quote: 





steve eddy said:


> :::ducks:::
> 
> se


 


   
  :::stands up:::


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote:  





> :::stands up:::


 

 :::winces:::
   
  se


----------



## DaveBSC

Don't knock em till you've tried em. Otherwise _you _have egg on your face


----------



## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> *We're opening up a can of worms here Peete*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Agreed... a can o worms for sure.
   
  MIT's designer used to be Monster's first really good engineer who left Monster when Monster wanted to sell lesser designs for more money. I have some first gen Monster IC's and they are still better than anything MC makes today, not surprisingly.
   
  It's hard to argue with Spectral...you may be entirely right about the Zobel's complexity but it's hard to argue about the end result (from where I stand after going through tons of cables over the years). My best purchases (where cables are concerned) have been on closeout specials (all of my MIT stuff was heavily discounted due to newer lines coming out the following year). As for the Zoebel parts the inductor coils used in these IIRC are all custom wound to exacting specs which makes copying them an expensive prospect not worth pursuing.
   
  As for the flat line series...I agree they are fragile but with careful handling they do provide a very good overall result with the gear/system I have assembled. I use BH II speaker cables which I had to buy at full cost but I definitely do not have thin bass, nor bright treble....it's a perfect compliment to the system I feel.
   
  With cables in general it's tough to figure out what would be suitable from a beginner's perspective since experience and research are what is required to limit costly mistakes. One resource that I swear by is Used Cable dot com...it's an invaluable service IMO for trying without buying while gaining insight what works with your setup and what doesn't. The only drawback to such an approach are the shipping costs and the time involved to reach a decision. A quick way to whittle those choices down however is to research sound sig's for each type, evaluate your system and choose accordingly. The Internet has made such info readily available for anyone who wants to take the time to read (some pretty boring stuff).
   
  If one is one a very limited budget skip the box stores and buy from BJ Cable or Markatek (SP ? ) or Mono price....any of those 3 choices will equal or better what any box store has and will likely be better for 1/4 the cost.
   
  Peete.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Now if all HDMI cable reviews were like this one
   
  http://hdguru.com/all-hdmi-cables-are-the-same-or-are-they-full-test/4373/
   
  they would be worthwhile. It tests HDMI cables to see over what length do they start to fail and with what equipment.


----------



## Hennyo

I agree that HDMI cables are the most fake, unethical, immodest product on the market, however that doesn't mean other cables make no difference, not by a long shot. HDMI is primarily Video anyway, nobody uses it for 'meaningful' audio so it's not even worth going over. It's a marketing scandal for business managers and the like who might want one in their cinema at home. It in no way affects what other cables can do and shouldn't have anything to do with how they're thought of.


----------



## Willakan

So HDMI cables cannot make any difference at all, but USB cables and the like are fine?


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





pricklely peete said:


> With cables in general it's tough to figure out what would be suitable from a beginner's perspective since experience and research are what is required to limit costly mistakes. One resource that I swear by is Used Cable dot com...it's an invaluable service IMO for trying without buying while gaining insight what works with your setup and what doesn't. The only drawback to such an approach are the shipping costs and the time involved to reach a decision. A quick way to whittle those choices down however is to research sound sig's for each type, evaluate your system and choose accordingly. The Internet has made such info readily available for anyone who wants to take the time to read (some pretty boring stuff).


 

 The parent company of Used Cable (The Cable Co) runs a lending library that can also help one try different brands/kinds of cables to figure out what sounds good and what doesn't. The problems I have with Used Cable are that their prices don't reflect real market value, and the condition of their cables is often pretty poor. Anything less than what they call "very good" condition is likely to be beaten up pretty badly, and yet you may still be paying double or even triple Audiogon prices for it. Doesn't make any sense. If you go to resell through them, unless you are trading in for something else, the prices they offer to buy are basically an insult, a third of what the cables are worth.
   
  I'll give you a prime example. The market value of Audioquest's Sky interconnect has flat-lined, and they are now going for under $600 a pair on Audiogon for flawless condition cables, which is actually a pretty good deal. I can guarantee you that Used Cable would still try to sell them for $1200-1500 a pair.
   
  The one area where Used Cable does make sense are their new overstock specials. There seems to be loads of perpetually discounted brand new MIT cables, and they also often have JPS, Purist, and Synergistic new with pretty big discounts as well.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





willakan said:


> So HDMI cables cannot make any difference at all, but USB cables and the like are fine?


 

 For devices that transfer in block mode like hard drives, all USB cables work fine. It's streaming audio where you need a high quality USB cable.


----------



## Willakan

Actually, I would say the people who designed the entire USB specification probably know best and they think such cables are a load of crap (see Sound Science).
  As for Gordon Rankin, what a totally unbiased source with absolutely no interests in anything to take you opinions from.


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## Uncle Erik

Gordon Rankin?

You might as well consult a witch doctor or your local palm reader.

Though he has a lot of credibility from being around so long. Similar to how everyone takes alchemy seriously because it has been studied for centuries. Someone is _bound_ to transmute base metals into gold because science hasn't proven it impossible, just like how no one has ever passed a blind cable listening test.

Since science hasn't proven it untrue, we should assume that is sufficient proof that magic exists and anyone who disagrees is a "hater."


----------



## DaveBSC

Whatever guys, believe whatever you want to believe. Enjoy your $2 cables. Those of us that trust our ears and experience will enjoy ours.


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## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Whatever guys, believe whatever you want to believe. Enjoy your $2 cables. Those of us that trust our ears and experience will enjoy ours.


 

 The other side is
   
  "Whatever guys, believe whatever you want to believe. Enjoy your $200 cables. Those of us that trust science and experimentaion will enjoy ours"


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## DaveBSC

Yup. I have absolutely no interest in this debate anymore. It's pointless, as both sides are intractable. We might as well work on world peace instead.


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## Prog Rock Man

Another genuinely useful HDMI cable review
   
  http://hdmi-cables-review.toptenreviews.com/
   
  The winner, for obvious reasons is the Monster cable at $35 and because of the supporting evidence I would buy it over the Monprice cable at $3.50.
   
  Now, if I was a salesman I would get a copy of that review, show it to customers and I would sell tons of £35 cables, for good reason. If Audioquest found out though, they would not be so happy, but what do expect with a cable selling for $134.75 which cannot do as much as a $15.49 one.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> The winner, for obvious reasons is the Monster cable at $35 and because of the supporting evidence I would buy it over the Monprice cable at $3.50.


 

 I hope you're not being serious.


----------



## buffalowings

I think headfi needs a "cable around the world" type of deal
  everybody chips in $1, then we'll go out and buy 10 meters of expensive arse cabling, send it around, and every prospective receiver should have knowledge of recabling and a pair of phones that can be recabled, then they record there results in the journal that follows that cable around der world.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





buffalowings said:


> I think headfi needs a "cable around the world" type of deal
> everybody chips in $1, then we'll go out and buy 10 meters of expensive arse cabling, send it around, and every prospective receiver should have knowledge of recabling and a pair of phones that can be recabled, then they record there results in the journal that follows that cable around der world.


 

 That's not really workable. If everybody is chipping in $1, you're going to need *a lot *of people to get even 1 meter of really good wire, let alone 10. Then you've got who knows how many different pairs of headphones, which could be $150 through $1500. I think a better route would be something like a pair of semi-premium analog interconnects, which could be sent to various members with at least decent systems, like the Audio-GD Ref 7 tour. Just about everybody uses analog interconnects somewhere in their system chain. Unlike hardwired headphones, you can swap in a new pair of interconnects in two seconds.
   
  Take a listen, and report if you notice anything. If you're feeling all sciencey about it, have a spouse or friend help you do a blind ABX test.


----------



## Prog Rock Man

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Yup. I have absolutely no interest in this debate anymore. It's pointless, as both sides are intractable. We might as well work on world peace instead.


 

 No both sides are not intractable, just some people. I have changed my mind once due to the evidence and I am prepared to do so again should evidence to the contary appear which shows my orignial postion is wrong.
   
  PS - I would not buy the Monster cable, it is still too expensive. I would find another one that works with my system. (A ThatCable HDMI lead which cost £5 off eBay) But it is a useful review, particularly when compared to one which claims HDMI cables affect sound and visual quality.


----------



## DaveBSC

Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> PS - I would not buy the Monster cable, it is still too expensive. I would find another one that works with my system. (A ThatCable HDMI lead which cost £5 off eBay) But it is a useful review, particularly when compared to one which claims HDMI cables affect sound and visual quality.


 

 I have yet to see the measured results or double blind results that have made any of us come over to the "cables make no difference, and are all scams" side. If you guys want to put down your meters and oscilloscopes and take a listen for a minute, please feel free to do so.
   
  That so called "review" is useful for Monster Cable salesman, that's about as far as I'd go with it. I do find it funny how "nitrogen gas injected" is a feature, and hey isn't it neat how only the Monster cables with that "feature" get the little checkbox there. It's a glorified marketing/spec sheet with some meaningless star ratings.


----------



## buffalowings

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> That's not really workable. If everybody is chipping in $1, you're going to need *a lot *of people to get even 1 meter of really good wire, let alone 10. Then you've got who knows how many different pairs of headphones, which could be $150 through $1500. I think a better route would be something like a pair of semi-premium analog interconnects, which could be sent to various members with at least decent systems, like the Audio-GD Ref 7 tour. Just about everybody uses analog interconnects somewhere in their system chain. Unlike hardwired headphones, you can swap in a new pair of interconnects in two seconds.
> 
> Take a listen, and report if you notice anything. If you're feeling all sciencey about it, have a spouse or friend help you do a blind ABX test.


 

 good idea with the interconnects, hardwired phones are a pain in the arse to swap cables
   


  Quote: 





prog rock man said:


> No both sides are not intractable, just some people. I have changed my mind once due to the evidence and I am prepared to do so again should evidence to the contary appear which shows my orignial postion is wrong.
> 
> PS - I would not buy the Monster cable, it is still too expensive. I would find another one that works with my system. (A ThatCable HDMI lead which cost £5 off eBay) But it is a useful review, particularly when compared to one which claims HDMI cables affect sound and visual quality.


----------



## goodvibes

The OP's advice is sound because there is so much snake oil out there. Of course when you're dealing with a biz that needs to recoup some margin to stay viable, these things happen. In the case of the OP, spending lots on cables for a 5.1 type system is a waste but once you get to the top 2 ch stuff, there's significant differences and improvements to be had. Just because someone has personally never heard it doesn't mean they don't exist. That's like trying to prove a negative.
   
   That said. Even at that end of things, there's plenty of greed and hype instead of performance so it's good to be wary but if you can find an individual with enough experience and knowledge of the market to do some proper dems, I'm sure that even doubters would admit that there's advantages to proper cable selection. Proper doesn't always mean expensive either.


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## Uncle Erik

goodvibes said:


> The OP's advice is sound because there is so much snake oil out there. Of course when you're dealing with a biz that needs to recoup some margin to stay viable, these things happen. In the case of the OP, spending lots on cables for a 5.1 type system is a waste but once you get to the top 2 ch stuff, there's significant differences and improvements to be had. Just because someone has personally never heard it doesn't mean they don't exist. That's like trying to prove a negative.
> 
> That said. Even at that end of things, there's plenty of greed and hype instead of performance so it's good to be wary but if you can find an individual with enough experience and knowledge of the market to do some proper dems, I'm sure that even doubters would admit that there's advantages to proper cable selection. Proper doesn't always mean expensive either.




I am not aware of any significant improvements.

Do you have any citations to measurements or studies where people passed blind tests demonstrating cable differences?

As far as I know, there isn't a drop of proof. Even after a good 30 years of argument.

Further, the burden of proof is on the person making the claims. The burden of proof is not on the person asking how something works.

But that gets turned on its head with cable arguments. Believers run and hide when asked for proof, then throw rocks at people asking for proof. So if you can demonstrate that cable make a difference, go for it. Why not buy an oscilloscope and a signal generator so you can prove that the frequencies change?

The cable industry is full of lies, fraud and borderline criminal behavior. The manufacturers know it, too. That's why they're afraid to have an honest discussion and always try to turn discussions into fights or shut down debate altogether. Pretty much like how every convict insists on their innocence, despite overwhelming proof, and tries to blame it all on the police or someone else. Those who commit fraud are fundamentally dishonest; don't expect them to be upfront about anything.


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## Pricklely Peete

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> The parent company of Used Cable (The Cable Co) runs a lending library that can also help one try different brands/kinds of cables to figure out what sounds good and what doesn't. The problems I have with Used Cable are that their prices don't reflect real market value, and the condition of their cables is often pretty poor. Anything less than what they call "very good" condition is likely to be beaten up pretty badly, and yet you may still be paying double or even triple Audiogon prices for it. Doesn't make any sense. If you go to resell through them, unless you are trading in for something else, the prices they offer to buy are basically an insult, a third of what the cables are worth.
> 
> I'll give you a prime example. The market value of Audioquest's Sky interconnect has flat-lined, and they are now going for under $600 a pair on Audiogon for flawless condition cables, which is actually a pretty good deal. I can guarantee you that Used Cable would still try to sell them for $1200-1500 a pair.
> 
> *The one area where Used Cable does make sense are their new overstock specials. There seems to be loads of perpetually discounted brand new MIT cables, and they also often have JPS, Purist, and Synergistic new with pretty big discounts as well.*


 

 Used Cable is the only place I know of that you can sample the wares...buying them is another story as you rightly point out. It's too bad that some folks beat stuff up, it's a shame. Heavily discounted new stuff is what I tend to look for (if I need something I know I cannot DIY build for less $$). AQ.....I just cannot fathom how AQ can charge what they charge considering the geometry and materials used are nothing special.
   
  Local Hi Fi dealers used to loan cables years ago...many these days will not even think about doing that anymore (there are exceptions I would imagine).
   
  Anyhow....the best thing a budding audiophile can do is to learn how to make their own cables. DIY is the way to go (as long as one has the skills necessary to do a great job of it).
   
  Peete.
   
   
  PS : Uncle Erik.....the magic formula to solve the age old riddle of alchemy has been discovered. Look it up...the process requires mercury and a small nuclear reactor. As for hinting that cable advocates are akin to criminals ...well that's stretching things a little far. As for measuring changes with a scope and signal generator...come on man...no one listens to a signal generator, we listen to music which is full of complex harmonies,overtones etc...I know you know this ...science does not have all the answers, the discipline is never contained within a specific sized defined box...the outer edge are ever changing (IE alchemy riddle solved). An open mind is part and parcel of a well rounded scientist, audiophile , musician etc...convention has to be challenged in order to move forward.


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## Currawong

Guys, just a note: DBT and the like discussion isn't permitted outside of the Sound Science forum, as the thread will quickly turn into repetitive arguments about it, benefitting no-one, and ending up with it locked.
   
  ----
   
  My opinion: I thought PRM's find was a good one. I had no idea that there were so many specifications related to HDMI cables, so if I ever do need to buy any for anything more exotic than my XBox or iPad, I know what to look for.


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## DaveBSC

currawong said:


> Guys, just a note: DBT and the like discussion isn't permitted outside of the Sound Science forum, as the thread will quickly turn into repetitive arguments about it, benefitting no-one, and ending up with it locked.
> 
> ----
> 
> My opinion: I thought PRM's find was a good one. I had no idea that there were so many specifications related to HDMI cables, so if I ever do need to buy any for anything more exotic than my XBox or iPad, I know what to look for.




Basically it's 1.4 or not, Ethernet or not. Except in the instance of extremely long runs, you can skip everything else.


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## Currawong

Quote: 





davebsc said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks for the tip. I'll keep that in mind.


----------



## goodvibes

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> I am not aware of any significant improvements.
> 
> Do you have any citations to measurements or studies where people passed blind tests demonstrating cable differences?
> 
> ...


 


 If you're in Chicago sometime, give a holler and I'll let you prove it to yourself.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  I'm not insisting anything. Just stating what I know from my experiences and don't really care for the criminal comparisons after very clearly acknowledging the amount of snake oil in the industry and stating that good and expensive are not synonymous. I've never said more than only buy what you can hear and if you can't, save your money. How is that bad advice to tell someone to go with what they experience over any message board bias, one way or the other?
   
  I also don't need to buy an oscilloscope and signal generator. I already own them. I also know what they can and can't show is limited and that they're better tools for repair than listening. The idea that you can only hear what can be seen on an oscilloscope is as flawed as any cables sound different argument. If you hear a dif, good and if you don't, also good and for whatever reason. I'm not the zealot here. Do speakers sound different on spikes? Does kit sound different of different surfaces? Can you see it on an oscilliscope? I know what answers work for me here from my experience. If yours vary, so be it but it won't change my experience.
   
  I'm out as apparently stating opinion without absolute proof has become unacceptable on a forum no less. You know, where no observation of sound isn't backed up by absolute proof, LOL. I don't need to prove anything to you for it to be so for me. The proofs are your demons, not mine. I would never attempt to prove subtlties of sound on forum but I bet we'd have great fun over a beer and wires.


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## DaveBSC

goodvibes said:


> I also know what they can and can't show is limited and that they're better tools for repair than listening. The idea that you can only hear what can be seen on an oscilloscope is as flawed as any cables sound different argument. If you hear a dif, good and if you don't, also good and for whatever reason.




I'm basically in agreement. Scope worship is misguided. In most cases I think the difference between a $5 Monoprice cable and a $500 cable is significant and quite audible. Try it out for yourself. If you believe so strongly in the placebo effect that you think there's no possible way you can be objective (though if that's the case, I wonder how you can buy literally anything, including coffee makers, without automatically picking the most expensive option because placebo is SOOOO strong) than just have somebody do the swap for you, not tell you which cable you are listening to. If one cable doesn't sound noticeably better than another, (and Im not talking ZOMG the bass shot up by 10dB!!!, I'm talking about a bit more detail, a bit quieter noise floor, a bit better separation of instruments) than congratulations, you've beaten the cable man, throw a party for yourself.


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## Uncle Erik

That's the same reason why unicorns are real.


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## Willakan

And you can't measure unicorns with a scope, can you?


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## Prog Rock Man

Of the two HDMI reviews I have linked to I think this is the better one
   
  http://hdguru.com/all-hdmi-cables-are-the-same-or-are-they-full-test/4373/
   
  as I do think the other gives out ticks for stuff that is not important. On the hdguru review it clearly show how well longer cables perform and with what equipment. There the winner is a Monoprice cable, the worst is an Amazon one which fails most of the time, so it is not worth its cheap price.
   
   
  ##### Funny how we again get regailed with the put away your measuring equipment and use your ears argument. Then we are warned about mentioning the test that is banned from here. Yet it is the test that exclusively uses your ears. So we are to use our ears but we are not to mention the test that uses our ears. Weird. #####


----------



## goodvibes

I'm sorry but I just need to add.
  So your saying to not trust ones own ears and use another's test? Listening tests are fraught with biases in setup of what's important and/or good enough to listen to/through. We've had test that show people can't hear a dif yet the Brainwavz B2 was universally acepted to be better with a cable change. Nothing is 'proven' by either. Listen for yourself and don't be bullied into either camp. Anyone that disagrees with that has an agenda.


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## DaveBSC

prog rock man said:


> Of the two HDMI reviews I have linked to I think this is the better one
> 
> http://hdguru.com/all-hdmi-cables-are-the-same-or-are-they-full-test/4373/
> 
> as I do think the other gives out ticks for stuff that is not important. On the hdguru review it clearly show how well longer cables perform and with what equipment. There the winner is a Monoprice cable, the worst is an Amazon one which fails most of the time, so it is not worth its cheap price.




This is a much better test than the other one, which lists "pure copper" (whatever that means) and nitrogen gas injection as features that some of the cables lose points for not having. I agree completely with the results here. What's great about digital video is that it truly is pass/fail. At a typical distance of 1-3M, even the dirt cheapest cable should be fine (unless you need 4K, Deep Color, or Ethernet features). No one should spend more than $20 or so on a short run of HDMI cable for video. 

As the author admits, PCM over digital doesn't work that way. I've never tested low or high end HDMI cables with PCM transmission, as the HDMI spec itself was not designed to be a low jitter interface for PCM. Also, other than A/V receivers, nothing really uses it for that anyway.


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## Chris_Himself

I think one day the people who are into cables and are feeling generous should just do a passaround involving high level head-fiers with cables


----------



## Lenni

wow, an all-out science posse attack...


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## Willakan

Hey, we get bored stuck on one forum sometimes. Besides, the thread title invited us in - same principle as with vampires.


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## Hennyo

They wouldn't be able to handle it. They're too immature to accept the truth because they operate on consistency and if something WAS actually better....
  They couldn't handle it. Something would seriously snap in their lives!%! It would be quite entertaining really. I've answered every question they've thrown at me with legitimate anttswers multiple times, all of them ignored-picked apart-paraphrased in prosecuting lawyer perspective.
   
  It. Is. Sad. Nuff said, hard fight fought, This is one outcome (convincing them that they're sound is comparatively speaking 'mediocre.' and could be much better) that fortunately doesn't matter to me (anymore).
  
  Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> I think one day the people who are into cables and are feeling generous should just do a passaround involving high level head-fiers with cables


 

 I'm sick of the immature bs. No matter what is said. Try it or hate it. Choice is yours. They're CLEARLY missing out, lol. Idc. They're just trolling themselves. (Let them be).


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## Uncle Erik

Exactly right, Hennyo.

I use science so I can deny new scientific advances. Whenever something is proven to work, I deny it and go back to the old ways.

This is why I won't go to a doctor. I don't care about scientific advancement or proof that medicines and surgery help people and fix problems.

Instead, I go to my _traditional_ barber for bloodletting and leeches.

Not that there's any proof that works, but it's been done for hundreds of years and look at all those testimonials!


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## buffalowings

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Exactly right, Hennyo.
> I use science so I can deny new scientific advances. Whenever something is proven to work, I deny it and go back to the old ways.
> This is why I won't go to a doctor. I don't care about scientific advancement or proof that medicines and surgery help people and fix problems.
> Instead, I go to my _traditional_ barber for bloodletting and leeches.
> Not that there's any proof that works, but it's been done for hundreds of years and look at all those testimonials!


 

 ayyy x2, if bloodletting was good enough for ol' G-W (george washington) it's good e-nuff for me


----------



## Hennyo

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Exactly right, Hennyo.
> I use science so I can deny new scientific advances. Whenever something is proven to work, I deny it and go back to the old ways.
> This is why I won't go to a doctor. I don't care about scientific advancement or proof that medicines and surgery help people and fix problems.
> Instead, I go to my _traditional_ barber for bloodletting and leeches.
> Not that there's any proof that works, but it's been done for hundreds of years and look at all those testimonials!


 
   
  More analogies that have both nothing to do with what's here and have been answered (and ignored) scientifically and not subjectively before.


----------



## scootermafia

Quote: 





chris_himself said:


> I think one day the people who are into cables and are feeling generous should just do a passaround involving high level head-fiers with cables


 


  HMMMMMM


----------



## goodvibes

Quote: 





buffalowings said:


> ayyy x2, if bloodletting was good enough for ol' G-W (george washington) it's good e-nuff for me


 


 These discussions often induce blood letting...but somehow, I don't feel better.


----------



## Head Injury

Quote: 





hennyo said:


> They wouldn't be able to handle it. They're too immature to accept the truth because they operate on consistency and if something WAS actually better....
> They couldn't handle it. Something would seriously snap in their lives!%! It would be quite entertaining really. I've answered every question they've thrown at me with legitimate anttswers multiple times, all of them ignored-picked apart-paraphrased in prosecuting lawyer perspective.


 

 If you prove that cables make an audible difference, I'll run out and buy a new one. I promise.


----------



## DaveBSC

scootermafia said:


> HMMMMMM




One possibility might be to get The Cable Co involved. Have them send something nice but not exorbitantly priced (Audience Au24, Kimber KS-1016, Tara RSC Air 3) and the board members can pass it around.


----------



## Steve Eddy

Quote: 





uncle erik said:


> Instead, I go to my _traditional_ barber for bloodletting and leeches.


 

 Now now, don't go baggin' on the leeches. They're being used to great effect in completely modern medicine.
   
  se


----------



## Chris_Himself

Quote: 





scootermafia said:


> HMMMMMM


 

  
  Haha I ain't got the supply for that kinda thang, by all means!


----------



## anetode

Quote: 





goodvibes said:


> If you hear a dif, good and if you don't, also good and for whatever reason. I'm not the zealot here.


 


  
  Quote:  





> Scope worship is misguided.


 


   
  I'm digging the whole 'skepticism and scientific study = religion' undercurrent you guys have going here.


----------



## Willakan

The criticisms about being closed-minded are particularly hilarious. Do these people actually understand the implications of what they're saying?


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## Currawong

This is why we can't have fun things.


----------

