# Predator shopping experience



## Hatmann

I'm looking for a DAC/amp and asked Ray Samuels what DAC he uses in his Predator. He replied:

 The best USB DAC in the market. it just sounds great. Yes we have it in stock.

 Cheers.
 Ray Samuels

 When I asked if he could be a bit more specific, he replied:

 Sorry, I can't.
 Cheers.
 Ray Samuels

 Most audio manufacturers will proudly give you specifications; a few act like the information is private.

 When Audio Research Corp. brought out its first sold-state amp and preamp, it wrapped the modules in protective covering to keep everyone from seeing what was inside. (Maybe it was a coincidence, but that first generation ss stuff was pretty much a flop in terms of sound.)

 Ray must have his reasons, and I'm NOT suggesting anything negative about his products, about which the word of mouth has been uniformly positive.

 I do suggest that this sort of secrecy is out of place, might unnecessarily cause potential customers to go elsewhere, and sends the wrong message to consumers who simply want to know what they are buying.


----------



## itsborken

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hatmann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_...Most audio manufacturers will proudly give you specifications; a few act like the information is private..._

 

Some people will buy regardless, others will buy a similar product from someone who provides the specs. You won't convince anyone otherwise; this topic has been rehashed many times.


----------



## Hatmann

With respect to those who have been lurking here a lot longer than I -- the secrecy topic is new to me, and perhaps others who also may want an explanation.

 Thanks.


----------



## Bender Rodriguez

Why not ask Coke what their secret formula is and see what kind of reply they give you? Same idea. Ray has a right to secrecy if he wants to protect himself from cloners. If you don't like it, buy from someone else.


----------



## Hatmann

Cosumers have a right to know what they are buying.

 They also have a right to ask what they are buying -- and to point out when a manufacturer refuses to answer.

 Please don't flame me for reporting the result of my query.


----------



## Bender Rodriguez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hatmann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I do suggest that this sort of secrecy is out of place, might unnecessarily cause potential customers to go elsewhere, and sends the wrong message to consumers who simply want to know what they are buying._

 

That's not just pointing out that he refused to answer, that's judging him for protecting his interests. 

 If you don't like his business practices, then don't buy from him.


----------



## Hatmann

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bender Rodriguez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's not just pointing out that he refused to answer, that's judging him for protecting his interests. 

 If you don't like his business practices, then don't buy from him._

 

You state the obvious.

 It gives me no pleasure to have to avoid a manufacturer with such a solid reputation.


----------



## Bostonears

At least Ray could have elaborated on why he won't disclose that info, instead of just giving his ridiculously glib response. A manufacturer keeping information confidential wouldn't prevent me from buying from him, but treating his prospective customers in such an amateur fashion might.


----------



## jamato8

Why would you avoid him because you don't have some information on the chips. I can understand your wanting to know but I can also understand why someone might not want to give away information. 

 As an example, a number of years ago I designed and sold pure silver IC's. I spent many, many hours of R&D. It was expensive and was my work. A company called Wave Technologies came along and was able to find out my supplier for the silver and duplicated everything I had done down to the teflon and weave of the IC's. They had much more money than I did and ran half page adds in Stereophile. I couldn't compete with their money but they had stolen everything I had done. Now Ray doesn't have the lack of capitol I had but at the same time why should he give away something he chooses not to after much R&D on his own? That is his choice and right as it is with anyone.


----------



## Bender Rodriguez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hatmann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 It gives me no pleasure to have to avoid a manufacturer with such a solid reputation._

 

His "solid reputation" isn't good enough a reason for you to buy his products?

 Why is it so important to know what chips he uses? Either you like the sound of his amps or you don't. Does knowing what goes into them make them sound different?


----------



## thread

AND from what I understand, the actual chip used does not completely determine the sound... the surrounding implementation has at least just as much to do with it.


----------



## Hatmann

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bender Rodriguez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That's not just pointing out that he refused to answer, that's judging him for protecting his interests. 

 If you don't like his business practices, then don't buy from him._

 

Please don't put words in my mouth -- or in Ray's.

 I'm reporting the facts about how a merchant treated a potential customer.

 I asked Ray to elaborate and his answer was, in effect, I won't.

 Fine.

 He didn't explain why. That's his priviledge.

 But, unless you are channeling him, you shouldn't pretend that you know either.


----------



## twylight

I think sanding the DAC numbers is chicken.

 Here is a comparison of the Pico/Predator

RightMark Audio Analyzer test: comparison


----------



## jamato8

I like the comment about asking Coke for what they use as ingredients. I don't see people wining about what they do or don't use. If you don't like Coke because they won't tell you then don't buy their product.


----------



## Duggeh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like the comment about asking Coke for what they use as ingredients. I don't see people wining about what they do or don't use. If you don't like Coke because they won't tell you then don't buy their product._

 

No. BS. That's a crap-awful analogy. The ingredients for Coke are written in plain English on the back of each tin or bottle in order of decreasing quantity. The equivilent here would be a list of parts used. Which we don't have. Although my understanding is that the capacitors used in the signal path are ceramic, which is a parts-choice no-no. To refer back to the Coke, that's like using aspartane instead of cane sugar.




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *twylight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think sanding the DAC numbers is chicken.

 Here is a comparison of the Pico/Predator

RightMark Audio Analyzer test: comparison_

 


 Intriguing.


----------



## dazzer1975

and maybe people don't, or wont, but it is totally within the remit of this forum for the op to post what he did, and then go onto to either buy or not from rsa.

 sorry, it was in reply to jamato8's post, I didnt use the quote as I thought id get in there directly below him but duggeh beat me to it.


----------



## Currawong

I have to agree with the point, if you don't agree with how a company does business, don't buy from them. 

 The portable amp market is hotly contested, however, so I don't blame manufacturers for doing their best to protect their designs.


----------



## Bender Rodriguez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hatmann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Please don't put words in my mouth -- or in Ray's.

 I'm reporting the facts about how a merchant treated a potential customer.

 I asked Ray to elaborate and his answer was, in effect, I won't.

 Fine.

 He didn't explain why. That's his priviledge.

 But, unless you are channeling him, you shouldn't pretend that you know either._

 

 You obviously don't understand the difference between reporting facts and interpreting them. Saying you don't agree with such practices is more than reporting the facts.
 Also, my saying that he is protecting his interests by refusing to answer is not "putting words in his mouth."
 I didn't intend this to devolve into personal bickering, but you seem to take exception to my posts. Just don't take things so personally.
 Peace.


----------



## jamato8

It has been well known for years that Ray does not divulge what he uses. If I had been here since 2002 I think I would have stumbled upon that a time or two as it has been brought up before. If not read before over the past few years, well again, it is a manufactures right. 

 I used to work with Carry Audio. They had and still do, proprietary designs that they would not and will not give information on. I manufactured a few items for them and part of those were proprietary that they never asked about nor did any customer. 

 Ask Kentucky Fried Chicken for their "secret" ingredients. People seem to accept that they won't give out this information and eat away anyway. :^)


----------



## itsborken

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Bender Rodriguez* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You obviously don't understand the difference between reporting facts and interpreting them. Saying you don't agree with such practices is more than reporting the facts._

 

Give the guy a break; nobody 'reports facts' and doesn't interpret/slant the results to their personal biases anymore.


----------



## Duggeh

Okay lets look at a few factors here.

 On hiding:

 Yes, it lets the amp maker conceal the details of the circuit. This, nominally may be so that nobody can copy the design. You can protect against that by copyrighting or patenting the circuit. If you can't patent the circuit, that's because it outwith patent remit (already patented, unpatentable or you're already in fact using a design which exists in somebody elses product) and as such disguising the parts used is the only way to prevent copying of your copy. Except...

 On the subject of cloning the design:

 Any electronics engineer worth his salt should be able to discern the parts used in a circuit by a contextual examination of the characteristics of that circuit and any respectable western electronics company of band of mysterious and evil chinese cloners is going to have at least one such person on their staff.


 Thats one reason for hiding the parts used: Protecting the amp-maker from invisible threats which could defeat such measures anyway.


 The other reason is not to hide the design from other electronics engineers or competitors, but to hide it from the customer.

 Why would a company want to hide the parts from the customer? Again, there are two explanations.


 One: in order to prevent the customer from seeing that there are, or soming to an understanding that there is by comparison with alternative product, an inferior parts selection or inferior parts implimentation compared to that alternative product. I.E. to keep the customer in the dark.

 Two: In order to attempt the mystical-magical-audio side of marketing in this business, where what is pushed in public relations is the mighty brains of the amp designer and their ability to by means which are hidden or unexplained (because parts are concealed) offer a better product than their competitors. I.E. in order to legitimise style over substance.

 Bose never tells anybody what parts go into their products. Pass Labs is completely open. Singlepower used to offer very specific parts selection in their massive list of upgrades, but then close up their amps so tight that you needed an impact driver to get one open, and even then, when you opened one, half that stuff you'd paid for wasn't there. Not that you would know if you couldn't see and not that the parts did anything but add the final 1% because Singlepower designs were so awesome that they outperformed everything and didn't catch fire, blow up or overheat and fail at all, whatsoever, never.

 On that last reference to the danger of an amp blowing up, I now understand that the battery charging circuit in the Predator charges the battery at far beyond its rated charging speed (i.e. at 2 to 3 amps).




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ask Kentucky Fried Chicken for their "secret" ingredients. People seem to accept that they won't give out this information and eat away anyway. :^)_

 

Refer to my paragraph above about mysterious magic enhancing secrets. The MFC mystery suace is chicken fat gravy, garlic and salt. Although Colonel Sanders probably had a better original one (which is the one they keep locked up).

 Again, you're using a food analogy which is not appropriate. A Magic-Eye picture would even be a closer analogy because if you look at it long enough and in the right wat you can see whats really there.


----------



## Duggeh

.


----------



## captian73

well, at least you got a reply to your email, i haven't heard a word from him!


----------



## jojo_b2

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Duggeh* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Okay lets look at a few factors here.

 On hiding:

 Yes, it lets the amp maker conceal the details of the circuit. This, nominally may be so that nobody can copy the design. You can protect against that by copyrighting or patenting the circuit. If you can't patent the circuit, that's because it outwith patent remit (already patented, unpatentable or you're already in fact using a design which exists in somebody elses product) and as such disguising the parts used is the only way to prevent copying of your copy. Except...

 On the subject of cloning the design:

 Any electronics engineer worth his salt should be able to discern the parts used in a circuit by a contextual examination of the characteristics of that circuit and any respectable western electronics company of band of mysterious and evil chinese cloners is going to have at least one such person on their staff.


 Thats one reason for hiding the parts used: Protecting the amp-maker from invisible threats which could defeat such measures anyway.


 The other reason is not to hide the design from other electronics engineers or competitors, but to hide it from the customer.

 Why would a company want to hide the parts from the customer? Again, there are two explanations.


 One: in order to prevent the customer from seeing that there are, or soming to an understanding that there is by comparison with alternative product, an inferior parts selection or inferior parts implimentation compared to that alternative product. I.E. to keep the customer in the dark.

 Two: In order to attempt the mystical-magical-audio side of marketing in this business, where what is pushed in public relations is the mighty brains of the amp designer and their ability to by means which are hidden or unexplained (because parts are concealed) offer a better product than their competitors. I.E. in order to legitimise style over substance.

 Bose never tells anybody what parts go into their products. Pass Labs is completely open. Singlepower used to offer very specific parts selection in their massive list of upgrades, but then close up their amps so tight that you needed an impact driver to get one open, and even then, when you opened one, half that stuff you'd paid for wasn't there. Not that you would know if you couldn't see and not that the parts did anything but add the final 1% because Singlepower designs were so awesome that they outperformed everything and didn't catch fire, blow up or overheat and fail at all, whatsoever, never.

 On that last reference to the danger of an amp blowing up, I now understand that the battery charging circuit in the Predator charges the battery at far beyond its rated charging speed (i.e. at 2 to 3 amps).






 Refer to my paragraph above about mysterious magic enhancing secrets. The MFC mystery suace is chicken fat gravy, garlic and salt. Although Colonel Sanders probably had a better original one (which is the one they keep locked up).

 Again, you're using a food analogy which is not appropriate. A Magic-Eye picture would even be a closer analogy because if you look at it long enough and in the right wat you can see whats really there._

 

Don't get me wrong but I find the logic loose. 

 1) Are you going to the premise that a customer will NEVER be a cloner?

 2) The amount of time and resources used by the cloner to GUESS that part would entail effort which may be less than or equal to the time spent of the original Manufacturers R&D. If the cloner has no idea at all even more resources spent than the original. Worse is it may not even get it correctly.

 3) You can see open bodies Predators in the web do a Google Image search or if you have one just open it. A few allen screws won't hinder anyone. From there I believe you found the 2-3 amp over charge value you noted. You saw the implementation already. The only secret left is the chips. 

 I also like the Coke analogy. It's like having all the ingredients of Coke and mixing it together. I don't think the initial mix would ever be considered a Coke unles that person is d*mn lucky. =)


----------



## Pangaea

I am not a DIYer and do not know one module from another (if that is even the terminology). But it bewilders me why Ray gets these threads every once in awhile. This is what I know about RSA, when I order an amp, I get exactly what I ordered (a high quality amp) 2-3 days later which is more than I can say for 80% of the amp builders out there. At least he is shipping products and keeping promises.


----------



## Bender Rodriguez

Coke may list their ingredients, but unless you know precise amounts
 and know exactly which "natural flavors" are used, that info is useless if you're trying to make "bathtub" Coke.


----------



## Bender Rodriguez

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *itsborken* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Give the guy a break; nobody 'reports facts' and doesn't interpret/slant the results to their personal biases anymore._

 

He's the one who said he was just "reporting facts," not me.


----------



## charlie0904

ibasso seems to be the company that shows its product components in web. haha.

 their newer stuff seems to be quite good after auditioning.


----------



## uday1583

The manufacturers are obliged to provide the specifications of a product in advance. Consumers have a right to know what they are buying. and i feel they also have a right to ask what they are buying -- and to point out when a manufacturer refuses to answer.


----------



## Duggeh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jojo_b2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Don't get me wrong but I find the logic loose. 

 1) Are you going to the premise that a customer will NEVER be a cloner?_

 

.

 No. But the lay customer isn't ever going to be. And the cloner won't be hindered by the hiding of parts if he knows what he's doing.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jojo_b2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_2) The amount of time and resources used by the cloner to GUESS that part would entail effort which may be less than or equal to the time spent of the original Manufacturers R&D. If the cloner has no idea at all even more resources spent than the original. Worse is it may not even get it correctly._

 

Wrong. This is not about guesswork. An electronics engineer will not have to guess. He can arrive at conclusions by examination. Not by brute force. A famous comparison of two such ways of going about electrical engineering would be between Edison and Tesla. Tesla could do the maths. Edison bludgeoned his way through everything by hammering really hard until it worked.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jojo_b2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_3) You can see open bodies Predators in the web do a Google Image search or if you have one just open it. A few allen screws won't hinder anyone. From there I believe you found the 2-3 amp over charge value you noted. You saw the implementation already. The only secret left is the chips._

 

So you'd agree that the potentially dangerous overcharging rate was kept secret? Do you think it was kept secret to stop other engineers from cloning a potentially dangerous design, or to hinder the customer finding out about it?

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jojo_b2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I also like the Coke analogy. It's like having all the ingredients of Coke and mixing it together. I don't think the initial mix would ever be considered a Coke unles that person is d*mn lucky. =)_

 

That it why it's a bad analogy. Not a good one. We come back to knowing from expertise vs brute force guesswork. A tasting expert would probably be able to blend a mixture of ingredients which would get pretty close to coke within a few tries if his erpertise extended into that area also. He would be Tesla. You or I with a Magimix and some bottles of food flavouring and a bag of sugar wouldn't do so well. That's Edison.


----------



## nc8000

Unless a product is under som kind of health, safety or environmental law controle the manufacturer has no obligation to provide any specifications and you as a consumer have no right to know anything. What you as a consumer have the right to do is not buy a product if you don't think the manufacturer is doing business the way you like. Seems rather simple to me.


----------



## Bender Rodriguez




----------



## itsborken

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nc8000* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Unless a product is under som kind of health, safety or environmental law controle the manufacturer has no obligation to provide any specifications_

 

If the components are sanded off how can one discern if it is ROHS compliant? I wonder if Underwriters Labs would certify obscured design? Good point/question though.


----------



## Mediahound

Related but different, my pre-sales experience with Ray Samuels was less than good. I emailed for a quote with overnight shipping and he replied asking where I live. I replied telling him what state I'm in and he never responded after that.


----------



## immtbiker

This has been discussed to death, and it always breaks into 2 separate camps.
 Will this thread bring about a different result? I doubt it.
 I put it in the same league as the "Grado customer service" threads.

 To the OP: What are you hoping to gain by starting this thread? Are you looking to find out what's really inside RS amps, or are you looking to deface the company? Either way, I don't think either result is going to be satisfied.


----------



## thisbenjamin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phototristan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Related but different, my pre-sales experience with Ray Samuels was less than good. I emailed for a quote with overnight shipping and he replied asking where I live. I replied telling him what state I'm in and he never responded after that._

 

+1 - I think Ray has just gotten to the point that he's only really excited or interested in the high end product he sells, and everything else more or less suffers. I try to be sympathetic but when, i've sent scores of emails to Todd, Jason and Ray in regards to purchasing product only to either never receive a response, it's a little disheartening. I'll give everyone here a perfect example.

 I sent 3 emails each to TTVJ, Jason at Headamp, and RSA explaining a project I'm working at for a NPO and my desire to set up a hifi exibit to showcase current portable audio, but more in point to try and convert the masses of Ipod users to hifi. I recieved no respones from either of the first two and while Ray was helpful at first, when he found out that the first phase of the deployment would only use portable amps in place of the higher dollar preamps, I stopped hearing from him and the last email I got was 

  Quote:


 601 are not designed to be used as portable headphones, they are in efficient & have no bottom end with small sound stage. I really don't understand your e-mail any more.
 I am truly very busy to keep this up.
 Cheers
 Ray Samuels 
 

This is after 4 emails, short pointed questions about pricing, impact on long term use and scale of support. The interesting thing is the last email I sent him was a request to purchase a SR71A and I never heard back. It's a free open market, and Ray has every right to ignore me - I'm simply disheartened that he chose to.

 immtbiker - why if it's been discussed to death on the community that feeds the wallets of Ray, et all has nothing been improved upon? There is an utterly bizarre habit here on head-fi for members to be either insanely patient (a quality I admire, and exhibit for the most part) or incredibly intolerant of any faults. I love what we do here, I love what the OEMs develop for us - I simply wish that they would be more responsive.


----------



## thisbenjamin

Also, for whatever it's worth - Predator pictures in detail:

The Predator?
RSA Predator ãƒ¬ãƒ“ãƒ¥ãƒ¼ï¼šQ.R.D.ï¼šSo-net blog

 Both show the red blobs covering various asics/dac/opamps.

 if this had higher resolution you could make out the dac:
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...o/Predator.jpg

 showing angle, not visible what dac is used;
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Predator1.jpg

Ray Samuels Audio Emmeline The Predator Review By Steven R. Rochlin
 if you look here you'll see the specs(not sure if it's accurate but in the release thread Ray links to the review, so I would assume as such.)
  Quote:


 Specifications

 Type: Stereo headphone amplifier with USB input

 Predator Amplifier Specifications
 Input Impedance: 50K 
 Output Impedance: 5 to 300 Ohms
 Frequency Response: 5Hz to 100kHz
 THD+N: .0007%
 Drive Capability: 250 ma
 Battery: Lithium Ion rechargeable, capable of 60 hours playback per charge
 Charging Time: 2 to 3 hours
 Gain: 3 position switch: Gain of 1 in Low, 5 in the Mid and 11 in the Hi
 Input Source: USB or stereo analog



 Predator USB DAC Specifications
 Compliant with the USB1.1 Specifications
 USB powered only
 DAC: 16 Bit Delta-Sigma Stereo

 Overall Dimensions: 2.95 x 1.7 x 0.75 (DxWxH in inches)
 Price: $475 
 

Interesting side mount pictures:
6moons audio reviews: Ray Samuels Audio Predator

 I couldn't let this go, I needed a distraction so I started to research which dac is really inside this little guy.

 Then I started going with that, and came across an internal post:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/al...pt-2-a-325941/
  Quote:


 56. Ray Samuels Audio Predator $475
 DAC: Burr-Brown PCM270x
 Input: USB
 Output: 1/4" TRS 
 

looks like it, fishing around on the 270x series;
USB Audio - USB DACs - PCM2702 - TI.com

 Given the fact that I don't think Ray is a programmer, and over the years I've watched his posts like a hawk (as I've always enjoyed his external design concepts) it makes perfect sense that the DAC is a 270, it's USB - a drop in solution requiring no programming skills, it's a 3.3 / 5v part allowing for current allowance across the design, it's using a 28 pin ssop - matching the one in the pictures. I bet dollars to doughnuts it's a PCM2702 (e flavor)

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm2702.pdf

http://www.mediaaudio.hr/site/upload...ers_dac_mp.pdf

  Quote:


 What has enabled this proliferation of USB-based D/A converters is a series of parts from Burr-Brown
 (Texas Instruments) called the PCM270x series. These parts are inexpensive (only a few dollars), very easy
 to use, and require no programming skills. They are similar enough to conventional D/A chips that any digital
 audio engineer can easily design a product around them.
 The problem with all of the chips in the Burr-Brown PCM270x series is that they have high levels of jitter. A
 fixed-frequency master audio clock is not employed. Instead a variable-frequency master audio clock is generated
 based on the timing of the incoming audio data. The computer sends packets of audio data at one
 millisecond intervals across the USB connection. The Burr-Brown chips have internal circuitry that measures
 the interval between the audio packets, and then uses this information to generate a new master audio
 clock that matches the rate at which the computer sends packets.
 This system, called “adaptive” USB mode, creates several opportunities where jitter will be added to the
 D/A converter’s master clock:
 1) Any variable frequency clock will intrinsically have more jitter than an equivalent fixed-frequency clock.
 In the “adaptive” USB mode, the clock in the D/A converter must “adapt” to match the rate that the
 computer sends out audio packets. In the case of the Burr-Brown PCM270x parts, the master audio
 clock comes from a VCO and inherently exhibits high levels of jitter.
 2) The computer cannot send audio packets at a perfectly fixed rate. Firstly, the computer’s internal clock
 is not designed to have low jitter. In a market segment where costs are literally shaved to the fractions
 of a cent, it would add too much the cost of a computer to use a high-performance, low-jitter clock.
 Secondly, the inside of a computer is filled with RF interference, making it impossible for even the best
 of clocks to maintain their spectral purity.
 3) The Burr-Brown USB-enabled D/A converter chips update (change) the frequency of the master audio
 clock each time a packet of audio data is received. This happens once a millisecond so there will be a
 strong jitter component at 1 kHz, right in the middle of the audio band. Typical measurements of the
 PCM270x chips exhibit jitter levels in the thousands of picoseconds, orders of magnitude worse than a
 well-designed one-box player.
 Finally, it should be noted that D/A converter boxes based on the PCM270x series parts are limited to a
 maximum sample rate of 48 kHz and a maximum word length of 16 bits. So while they can transfer CDgrade
 audio from one’s computer, they are incapable of playing higher resolution files. 
 

I'll leave you guys to do the research on which opamps he uses 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 edited for spelling


----------



## thisbenjamin

Note - I don't own a predator, I bet I could have sorted what DAC / opamps in 3 minutes with some cleaner and my toolkit


----------



## Ray Samuels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thisbenjamin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_+1 - I think Ray has just gotten to the point that he's only really excited or interested in the high end product he sells, and everything else more or less suffers. I try to be sympathetic but when, i've sent scores of emails to Todd, Jason and Ray in regards to purchasing product only to either never receive a response, it's a little disheartening. I'll give everyone here a perfect example.

 I sent 3 emails each to TTVJ, Jason at Headamp, and RSA explaining a project I'm working at for a NPO and my desire to set up a hifi exibit to showcase current portable audio, but more in point to try and convert the masses of Ipod users to hifi. I recieved no respones from either of the first two and while Ray was helpful at first, when he found out that the first phase of the deployment would only use portable amps in place of the higher dollar preamps, I stopped hearing from him and the last email I got was



 This is after 4 emails, short pointed questions about pricing, impact on long term use and scale of support. The interesting thing is the last email I sent him was a request to purchase a SR71A and I never heard back. It's a free open market, and Ray has every right to ignore me - I'm simply disheartened that he chose to.

 immtbiker - why if it's been discussed to death on the community that feeds the wallets of Ray, et all has nothing been improved upon? There is an utterly bizarre habit here on head-fi for members to be either insanely patient (a quality I admire, and exhibit for the most part) or incredibly intolerant of any faults. I love what we do here, I love what the OEMs develop for us - I simply wish that they would be more responsive._

 




 I am sorry that I could not stretch my self any further for you. I really wanted to work with you on what you were doing but after ten e-mails & every time you changed your mind I started to give up on the entire thing. My time is limited & hundreds of e-mail burn my time. Sorry that you pictured me as a person looking to make more money by selling you expensive products, that was not true at all. By posting partial section of my e-mail & not the entire 10 e-mails was not fare on your side, so here I am posting the entire 10 e-mails & what went between you & me.
 Ray Samuels


 Please read from the bottom going upward.




 Ray,

 I’ve been asked to order 1x SR71A this Friday for the ipod project demo, if you have them in stock. If you can give us a break, that’s awesome.

 Shipping address would be

 <ADDRESS REMOVED>

 Let me know the final amount and I’ll paypal you using my personal account, the company doesn’t have paypal.

 Benjamin GXXXX
 Systems Engineer


 Become a member, join today!




 Sometimes we just have to use what's donated. I thought using a portable amp and swapping to loss less would go farther for long term use than different headphones.

 If you could shoot me a quote for the hardware below that would be cool, if not ill leave you be. Best of luck.

 From: Ray Samuels <rsaudio@raysamuelsaudio.com>
 To: Benjamin Gxxxx
 Sent: Tue Aug 11 15:26:42 2009
 Subject: Re: Emmeline The Apache Pre-Amp/Headphone Amp question
 601 are not designed to be used as portable headphones, they are in efficient & have no bottom end with small sound stage. I really don't understand your e-mail any more.
 I am truly very busy to keep this up.
 Cheers
 Ray Samuels

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Benjamin Gxxxx
 To: Ray Samuels
 Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 12:33 PM
 Subject: RE: Emmeline The Apache Pre-Amp/Headphone Amp question

 Sorry Ray – going to bug you again if I might.

 It was purposed that we try the Raptor and one of your portables, I think the SR71A as that appears to be the highest sound quality portable in your line up. I was asked to test using a better headphone stage with our portable ipod exhibits (you pay to use an ipod, and carry it around with some Akg 601’s and listen to say Frank Sinatra or someone talk about the some event that we’re exhibiting). For the stationary exhibit they’re leaning on trialing a headphone only setup before going all into a Speaker setup. The tubes in the Raptor would provide the eye candy, and the sound once they’re there will work on its own What do you think?

 Again, I appreciate your patience and patronage.

 From: Ray Samuels [mailto:rsaudio@raysamuelsaudio.com]
 Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 9:46 AM
 To: Benjamin Gxxxx
 Subject: Re: Emmeline The Apache Pre-Amp/Headphone Amp question

 Tubes are very appealing to the listeners, they just look so beautiful when lit so they have therei own magic to steal the show.
 Cheers.
 Ray Samuels

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Benjamin Gxxxx
 To: Ray Samuels
 Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 11:24 AM
 Subject: RE: Emmeline The Apache Pre-Amp/Headphone Amp question

 Actually, if I might ask you a question; In your experience exhibiting your headphones and auditioning them to the public / head phone enthusiast, do you find that the esthetics come into play in a meaningful way in drawing attention to which of your products someone auditions first? I mean, if the average person / headphone nut walks over to your booth do they go for the tubes first? Normally I would attempt to demo this to the public, but I’ve got one shot at this so if you had any info on this, I’d be quite thankful – if you need to protect your sales, I understand completely.

 Thanks again Ray!

 From: Ray Samuels [mailto:rsaudio@raysamuelsaudio.com]
 Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 9:21 AM
 To: Benjamin Gxxxx
 Subject: Re: Emmeline The Apache Pre-Amp/Headphone Amp question

 I can give you only 10% off on the B-52 + the shipping as it is very expensive to make with a lots of hours to built.
 Cheers.
 Ray Samuels

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Benjamin Gxxxx
 To: Ray Samuels
 Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 7:52 PM
 Subject: RE: Emmeline The Apache Pre-Amp/Headphone Amp question

 Quick update and a question. 1) We’ll have funds sometime in Q4 to do this project demo to our board! 2) I’ve been thinking about the visual appeal of the tubes in the B52 – would it be possible to purchase one of those at a discount in place of the solid state preamp? If so, at what cost?

 Thanks again for your help in this project, and best of luck!

 From: Ray Samuels [mailto:rsaudio@raysamuelsaudio.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:12 PM
 To: Benjamin Gxxxx
 Subject: Re: Emmeline The Apache Pre-Amp/Headphone Amp question

 I think we can do that.
 Cheers.
 Ray Samuels

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Benjamin Gxxxx
 To: Ray Samuels
 Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 3:01 PM
 Subject: RE: Emmeline The Apache Pre-Amp/Headphone Amp question

 One quick question – I’ve seen some of your older products, maybe the phono amps use a clear cover / lid – would it be possible, (maybe not recommended) for you to use a clear top on the two pieces? I’m thinking It might be nice for museum visitors to be able to look inside – I’m going to try to have a ET on staff in the exhibit if it all works according to plan, so he could explain to people what’s what.

 If you don’t want to expose your design to the masses, I completely respect that.

 Thank you Ray!

 From: Ray Samuels [mailto:rsaudio@raysamuelsaudio.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 12:48 PM
 To: Benjamin Gxxxx
 Subject: Re: Emmeline The Apache Pre-Amp/Headphone Amp question

 I can do 20% off for the good cause that you are planning to do.
 Cheers.
 Ray Samuels

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Benjamin Gxxxx
 To: rsaudio@raysamuelsaudio.com
 Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:33 PM
 Subject: Emmeline The Apache Pre-Amp/Headphone Amp question

 Ray,

 I hope the afternoon finds you well. Currently it’s about to hit 94 in Seattle, and climb to 97 before the day is out – ugly weather for a bunch of coffee drinking wimps

 I’m emailing to check with you on a project I’m dreaming up here for the Experience Music Project. I’ve been working with several hifi venders both in the 2channel and headphone world (I’m “thisbenjamin” on head-fi.org) trying to put together a hifi system to demo at the museum. I want to expose the Ipod generation to hifi and champion the cause as it were. The reason I’m bugging you specifically is that the Apache you make would knock out two birds with one stone, it would allow me to control both the stereo system and power headphones (currently I’ve got HD-650’s, HF-2’s and K701s here) - without having to create separate systems, and it would allow me to use the balanced DACs that I have (Lavry DA11, DA2002, and likely a Pacific Microsonics Alpha One for HDCD and 24/176) I’m wondering if you would consider a price break for me, as I know these days trying to find all out product donations is a thing of the past given how we’re all pinching pennies.

 I appreciate your time Ray, and wish you the best of luck. You make some incredibly beautiful equipment, both design and esthetics. I was able to listen to your Raptor and Apache at a recent hifi meet and was blown away, with all the Chinese and Japanese components flooding the market it’s good to know American made remains on top.

 Benjamin Gxxxx
 Systems Engineer


 Become a member, join today!


----------



## gsawdy

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *twylight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think sanding the DAC numbers is chicken.

 Here is a comparison of the Pico/Predator

RightMark Audio Analyzer test: comparison_

 

This is very interesting indeed. Takes a little of the PR gloss off RSA. 

 Any chance you or your friend will be doing the same for the new crop of headamps? I think that list would include the RSA Shadow, the Pico Slim and the Millet TTVJ Portable.

 Thanks for the link, George


----------



## thisbenjamin

Ray;

 1. That's 5 emails.
 2. Posting the emails with my personal work information is not kosher.
 3. Nothing changed, I wanted to spend more money on this project, not less. I wanted to order more parts, and you simply stopped responding. You left it to me to assume why your would chose to do so. Why if you received the email wouldn't you at least tell me, no thanks! Or something to show at least that you didn't want anything to do with this project.


----------



## thisbenjamin

mod: please delete


----------



## Mediahound

It seems pretty clear that he's not interested in answering potential customers questions, which is really part of running a business is it not? Or, hire someone else do that for you if you don't want to.

 He would rather just take your money and not deal with cust. service...

 The last email quoted above is a customer asking to place an order but Ray couldn't even hack it? Weird.


----------



## thisbenjamin

It was pretty clear in the emails that I was trying to purchase amps, not borrow. I emailed each vendor after I received -zero- contact response from them.

 The Akg601's were donated, as I listed above there are for the portable ipod project, not for the stationary - which have HD650's, 701s and a few others that I'm unable to disclose at the moment.

 Emails aren't harassment, plain and simple. Even more so when on their websites they provide information regards to contacting them for product information. They're in the business to sell these items, I inquired about it - they're interested or they aren't. The thread started as someone having the same issues I did, so I wanted to add in the problems I've had. Nothing wrong with this.


----------



## thisbenjamin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *phototristan* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The last email quoted above is a customer asking to place an order but Ray couldn't even hack it? Weird._

 

Bizarre, no?


----------



## Hatmann

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_






 This has been discussed to death, and it always breaks into 2 separate camps.
 Will this thread bring about a different result? I doubt it.
 I put it in the same league as the "Grado customer service" threads.

 To the OP: What are you hoping to gain by starting this thread? Are you looking to find out what's really inside RS amps, or are you looking to deface the company? Either way, I don't think either result is going to be satisfied._

 

On another thread, I posted a link to a government recall of some audio amplifiers (Krells.)

 I didn't do it to "deface" that company, but to inform the consumer.

 Same here.

 Plus, there's always the possibility that the owner/manufacturer might see the post, have second thoughts about the secrecy and disclose specifications about his product.

 I'd like that -- and so might some other people here.

 Others who don't care are about such things are free to buy the world's "best" DAC, even though they have no clue what it is.


----------



## thisbenjamin

I should also note, that that Lavry team has been exceptionally responsive to all my requests in regards to this project - in the end I couldn't use them do to some bizarre federal guidelines for having things easy to interest with - the volume controls on the DA11 are too fine for people with motor skill problems, and having a remote for an exhibit isn't practical. It's a shame because for 1500 bucks a pop I could knock out each station with a headphone.

 The whole reason I barked up the trees of TTVJ, Headamp, and RSA was because they're American vendor selling American made products - and I always try to go that route, often times not even buying if I have to use something made overseas. In the my dealings American made was/is normally synonymous with world class customer service. I am being sincere in saying I am disheartened with my experiences. Maybe if the OEMs see that their service level is lacking from the community standpoint, they can change - I wish and hope to g-- they do.


----------



## Bullseye

Thanks for the info thisbenjamin


----------



## tvrboy

I read the discourse between Ray and Benjamin with some interest. Seems to me like nobody was "wrong" here - just two people with different goals. One wants to have a hefty discussion about musical equipment in general and his exhibit in particular, and another wants to answer his e-mails quickly so he can sell more products. If I was Ben, I would probably intuit that Ray is a busy guy and doesn't really want to chat. 

 However, my advice to you Ray is to pay more attention when somebody like this e-mails you! Not only does he talk about buying some of your most expensive products, he wants to showcase them in a museum for the general public! That's awesome brand exposure to people who would NEVER find out about your products otherwise. Even if he only ended up buying a SR-71, having that on display is totally worth it to you. You could even have donated it in return for some advertising or a "this exhibit made possible by the generous donation of Ray Samuels Audio" plaque. Most companies who sponsor exhibits spend a lot of money to get their name up - Ben wanted to PAY you to advertise your products!


----------



## thisbenjamin

goodness - sorry for the spelling problems guys, doing this on a 8900 BB and failing horribly.


----------



## Bullseye

The part I disliked regardless on how good/bad Ray Samuel's products are is when he decides to publish some private mails between Benjamin and him. He didn't even bother on removing all the personal information involved and it had to be done bu Jude...

 What kind of respect to privacy is that? And he did that to someone who could have been a potential buyer. 

 Thanks again for this info thisbenjamin.

 EDIT: I wanted to point that out. You might or might not have loads of emails every day, but some things like privacy always have to be kept safe, for respect to the people you will be doing business with.


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thisbenjamin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Ray;

 1. That's 5 emails._

 

There were ten emails total. Request and replies.


----------



## thisbenjamin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_There were ten emails total. Request and replies._

 

Out of everything mentioned in this thread, you felt trying to correct me on how many emails are present was the best course of action / contribution to the thread? Ray read 5 emails and he wrote 5, I call that he contributed to 5 emails.


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hatmann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_On another thread, I posted a link to a government recall of some audio amplifiers (Krells.)

 I didn't do it to "deface" that company, but to inform the consumer.

 Same here._

 

OK, that's good information. If I owned one of the affected Krell models I would appreciate the heads-up.

 But in this instance, what is the OP (you, in this case) going to gain? It will split people into 2 separate camps, and not much will be gained except for those who defend a manufacturers actions, and those who will jump on the MOT bash-train.

 We've been through this before, and life has gone on. Nothing good ever comes from it. Eventually, some people will start to go a little over the top, and the thread will be closed and nothing will be resolved.

 The MOT is not going to reveal his "secret formula" and the OP is not going to change his view on how things should have been handled differently.

 Time for a commercial break and Judge Judy can call her next case.


----------



## thisbenjamin

I don't agree - even if something has been brought up a million times, if it's broken - people have the right to complain, the more people complain the better chance something has of being fixed.

 And guess what? The OEM got their secret formula put on the table due to the request of the OP - so yes, there is a point to threads of this nature. You can't assume everyone will always end up being irrational at some point, you being jaded not withstanding ;P


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thisbenjamin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_even if something has been brought up a million times, if it's broken - people have the right to complain_

 

You can bring it up a million times, and you can keep complaining.

 I'll be listening to music. That's why I'm here.


----------



## socrates63

Any one you guys (in the US) citing untimely email responses ever pick up the phone to call? TTVJ and RSA are very easy to reach over the phone and easy to work with. I've never contacted HeadAmp so I firsthand experience on Justin's customer service practices.

 Sure, it'd be great if businesses can be responsive to all channels by which potential customers can reach them. However, while there are exceptions (like Headroom), these are businesses that do not employ dedicated sales and marketing people, AFAIK. What they do well is they deliver on the goods and provide good after sales service.

 I see some value in a thread like this where perceived deficiencies of retailers and manufacturers are shared with the community. Having said that, try the ol' fashion telephone, if you haven't already, and save yourself from frustration in the future.


----------



## headfever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I like the comment about asking Coke for what they use as ingredients. I don't see people wining about what they do or don't use. If you don't like Coke because they won't tell you then don't buy their product._

 


 exactly correct!!! very good imagery.


----------



## Hatmann

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_OK, that's good information. If I owned one of the affected Krell models I would appreciate the heads-up.

 But in this instance, what is the OP (you, in this case) going to gain? It will split people into 2 separate camps, and not much will be gained except for those who defend a manufacturers actions, and those who will jump on the MOT bash-train.

 We've been through this before, and life has gone on. Nothing good ever comes from it. Eventually, some people will start to go a little over the top, and the thread will be closed and nothing will be resolved.

 The MOT is not going to reveal his "secret formula" and the OP is not going to change his view on how things should have been handled differently.

 Time for a commercial break and Judge Judy can call her next case._

 



 Those True Believers who want to drink the Kool-Aid without knowing what's in it are free to do so.

 Others want to know what's in the Secret Sauce before we taste it.

 You keep looking for some motive.....the motive is information.

 You keep talking about rehashing.... this is the first time this has ever happened to me. I am reporting it to other consumers. That's how things get changed.

 If this offends you, please turn the page or hit the delete key. Attacking the messenger -- or questioning his motive -- is really not an appropriate response.

 Thank you.


----------



## thisbenjamin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *immtbiker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You can bring it up a million times, and you can keep complaining.

 I'll be listening to music. That's why I'm here._

 

Trust me, the rainbow colored two and a half inch signature tells it all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 In general the assumption is that everyone is here because of a disproportionally passionate love of music, compared to the average Joe.

 I would agree that there is a lot of unconstrained criticism made on these forums, whining about silly things or throwing things out of proportion (to each there own), however I think this thread from creation to comments through out has been for the most part handled politely, with only the best of intentions. It is entirely possible to provide feedback, and produce constructive criticism in regards to the resellers here, whom we feed - and that is exactly what's happening.


----------



## thisbenjamin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *socrates63* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Any one you guys (in the US) citing untimely email responses ever pick up the phone to call? TTVJ and RSA are very easy to reach over the phone and easy to work with. I've never contacted HeadAmp so I firsthand experience on Justin's customer service practices._

 

I have to have a paper trail, in this I have -no- choice. I understand that Ray, and Todd are from a generation not used to using email or electronic communications mediums as a primary tool to communicate. Regardless if you see the amount of complaints in regards to both of these sellers, including Justin at headamp, you will see that this is no one-off situation, they all suffer terribly from a lack of keeping on top of things. I do not expect them to change that behavior, nor do I think it required. I do think they should hire someone to handle shipping, order tracking, emails, etc. 

 Another example, It's annoying to keep referring to the Lavry's but they have a system that works. Dan doesn't reply to every single technical email - they have 2 support reps that handle that for them, Priscilla handles the bulk of all email communications, and she is on top it. It leaves Dan to do what he needs to, while insuring the presence of the company is maintained and requests are sorted in a timely and professional fashion.


----------



## thisbenjamin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hatmann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Others want to know what's in the Secret Sauce before we taste it._

 

Such a deep thread among this community is to speak the truth, to cut through the hype and tell the real story. And to that end, In this day and age it is impossible to hide things from the masses. You can try to obfuscate the truth, you can paint over chips, you can do whatever you think will work - but if we want to know, we're going to find out. One way, or another.

 And frankly, why in the world would you hide what chips you use, what design you've done? We have so many perfect examples were people have made their designs open-source, or near it without even impacting their sales. I ask these questions as a topic for discussion not directed specifically to Ray, although I am curious. If I could sort out what chips were used, without even having the product in front of me, why would you paint them over? Anyone with half a brain understands the circuit design as a whole is the source of the music, not the dac or opamps alone (yes they impact, but implementation is king).


----------



## thisbenjamin

You know what really pisses me off about Ray posting that whole thread? I wanted to surprise the Seattle area Head-Fi'ers when the project was a success, and now the cat's out of the bag.


----------



## jamato8

It would seem you are getting into an agenda now rather than what the original post was about or is this what the original post is about? 

 Why so serious? It seems there were some nice accommodations were being made and changes were made in the requests and the conversation ended. Now it is about something entirely different, chips.


----------



## AudioDwebe

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thisbenjamin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have to have a paper trail, in this I have -no- choice. I understand that Ray, and Todd are from a generation not used to using email or electronic communications mediums as a primary tool to communicate. Regardless if you see the amount of complaints in regards to both of these sellers, including Justin at headamp, you will see that this is no one-off situation, they all suffer terribly from a lack of keeping on top of things. I do not expect them to change that behavior, nor do I think it required. I do think they should hire someone to handle shipping, order tracking, emails, etc. 

 Another example, It's annoying to keep referring to the Lavry's but they have a system that works. Dan doesn't reply to every single technical email - they have 2 support reps that handle that for them, Priscilla handles the bulk of all email communications, and she is on top it. It leaves Dan to do what he needs to, while insuring the presence of the company is maintained and requests are sorted in a timely and professional fashion._

 


 You've mentioned the stellar CS you've received from Lavry. I've not heard much at all about them. Do you think it's possible that they provide better customer service because their volume doesn't equate to that of the others you contacted?

 Just a thought.

 I've dealt with Ray several times via the phone and he was always more than generous with his time on all occasions, to the point I felt a bit guilty taking too much of it, as I know he's a very busy business owner.


----------



## thisbenjamin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It would seem you are getting into an agenda now rather than what the original post was about or is this what the original post is about? 

 Why so serious? It seems there were some nice accommodations were being made and changes were made in the requests and the conversation ended. Now it is about something entirely different, chips._

 

I'm not seeing that, I see three things;

 1) design obfuscation
 2) customer service issues
 3) free information

 These are all areas that I feel passionately about and am curious to what other people think, their experiences - whatever. Forums are a place to exchange ideas and that is my agenda here, if anything. As long as it keeps civil I don't see any harm in whats going on.


----------



## jamato8

Buying an amp does not give you the right to free information as to design and parts, sorry I do not agree with that. That is up to the manufacture. The design didn't come free to the manufacture or do you refer to some other free information?


----------



## thisbenjamin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *AudioDwebe* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You've mentioned the stellar CS you've received from Lavry. I've not heard much at all about them. Do you think it's possible that they provide better customer service because their volume doesn't equate to that of the others you contacted?

 Just a thought.

 I've dealt with Ray several times via the phone and he was always more than generous with his time on all occasions, to the point I felt a bit guilty taking too much of it, as I know he's a very busy business owner._

 

That's a great point. The Lavrys deal in volume, likely significantly more than Ray, TTVJ, Headamp - the difference I would think is that (again I'm assuming that TTVJ, RSA, Headmp don't have dedicate help, I've never received correspondence from the owners, so I'm not sure - i've just seen it in the forums) they have dedicated employees to handle tasks such as technical support, customer service, shipping, etc - not droves of people, I think in total 4-5 not counting manufacturing(again these are guesses based on the people I've communicated with, I don't have numbers I can backup outside of that).

 I agree with you, in that I would expect (having never done so, but given the community at large and their experience, seems reasonable) that they would always be there to pick up the phone. The problem in my case, is that I have got to have a paper trail for accountability purposes. The problem with this thou is that I now know that Ray received my emails, and simply decided not to reply, not even in the case of an actual request for invoice to purchase something out right - this is, well it's odd.


----------



## thisbenjamin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Buying an amp does not give you the right to free information as to design and parts, sorry I do not agree with that. That is up to the manufacture. The design didn't come free to the manufacture or do you refer to some other free information?_

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly that Ray's various product designs are his alone, assuming they are uniquely his (I make no accusations). In regards to free information, nothing about a DAC or OPAMP is proprietary, patented information from the standpoint of any of the portable or desktop solutions provided to this community, except in rare circumstances (I believe only Lavry uses a decoding / encoding solution, uniquely his own - someone correct me If I am wrong). That being the case, free information is being obfuscated. I'll give you an example - we have thousands of parts at my work that our own ET's design, or work on / fix / upgrade, etc - we have the circuit diagrams for near all of them, the ones using patented technologies have sections of the circuit diagram ripped out, in near every single situation it's either because a part is being used out of spec, or in the most rare of circumstances, they're actually using a design uniquely their own. In any case we always reverse engineer to provide our own solutions.

 Maybe something to do with Ray's previous work that makes him have a desire to do this? I don't know, it's up to anyone to guess as we're never given answers to the groom lake amplifiers / dacs. Honestly, I thought the secret sauce in his products were more secret than they are - that isn't a knock on his designs, he does an amazing job - I still wish something could be worked out with him, or that Justin or Todd would return my emails. c'est la vie.

 Oh by the way - if anyone knows of a US manufacturer of portable hifi amplifiers, as well desktop preamp + headphone amplifiers that wants business, and you can positively reference their build quality and customer service, please let me know. My only requirement beyond the aforementioned is that the volume / controls must be knobs.


----------



## koven

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *twylight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I think sanding the DAC numbers is chicken.

 Here is a comparison of the Pico/Predator

RightMark Audio Analyzer test: comparison_

 

might be off topic but can someone summarize this comparison in layman's terms? im not sure how to judge the graphs


----------



## thisbenjamin

Koven - the short of it would be that, according to that study / testing the Pico is a superior product in all tested categories. I'm not sure which section you're lost on, as they're all pretty common performance metrics, that being the case a quick glance at Wikipedia + crosstalk, etc would give a nice summary. I'm not trying to be a jerk, i'm just not sure what you're asking, so trying to be general.


----------



## thisbenjamin

Update; to give another customer service example, I emailed Jorge at headroom through the sales@headroom alias, he emailed back and in less then 40 minutes total I had pricing, policy, support everything understood and done.

 THAT is how to support your customer base, Jorge and headroom; you guys are awesome.


----------



## koven

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thisbenjamin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Koven - the short of it would be that, according to that study / testing the Pico is a superior product in all tested categories. I'm not sure which section you're lost on, as they're all pretty common performance metrics, that being the case a quick glance at Wikipedia + crosstalk, etc would give a nice summary. I'm not trying to be a jerk, i'm just not sure what you're asking, so trying to be general._

 

thanks, and please excuse my ignorance.. i just wanted to know which came out superior as i'm just not too knowledgeable with the technical side of this hobby


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thisbenjamin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Update; to give another customer service example, I emailed Jorge at headroom through the sales@headroom alias, he emailed back and in less then 40 minutes total I had pricing, policy, support everything understood and done.

 THAT is how to support your customer base, Jorge and headroom; you guys are awesome._

 

I notice that the correspondence with Ray was over about a 10 day period with different questions as to a clear top being used and questions on different types of equipment as the process moved along. Since this might have assisted you in coming to a conclusion as to what you wanted in the end, it would seem that correspondence with someone else would now benefit from this, making for a more concise and conclusive conclusion since you now are better able to define what your needs are and how to express them.


----------



## thisbenjamin

None of us come out of the womb skilled and omnipotent, we're all in the process of learning and forums like this are the perfect place for it.

 Justin does an amazing job with his designs, he follows compliance and creates based upon interoperability following specifications (speaking in terms of both circuit design, component interaction and architecture). If I could have a product supported by Tyll's team, that looked like a ray samuels case, using Justin's internals not only would I be in heaven, but it would sell like _fill in the blank_. I say this having never heard anyhting but the 150 dollar Headroom amp's - this will change very soon, and I will review whatever I end up getting from Headroom.


----------



## thisbenjamin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I notice that the correspondence with Ray was over about a 10 day period with different questions as to a clear top being used and questions on different types of equipment as the process moved along. Since this might have assisted you in coming to a conclusion as to what you wanted in the end, it would seem that correspondence with someone else would now benefit from this, making for a more concise and conclusive conclusion since you now are better able to define what your needs are and how to express them._

 

The end problem with Ray was that he became disinterested. I would also add that I changed nothing - I only added to the items that I wished to buy, something that he should have not only have been pleased with, but interested in from a fiscal standpoint. Be blunt if needs be, but honesty - do you think any of my questions are difficult to understand, or overly obtrusive, offensive or otherwise anything outside of the normal correspondence someone might expect when inquiring as to business?

 I should add that I have never before delt with a situation like the one I had with Ray - I almost want to chalk it up to maybe he's under a lot of stress, or maybe something's happening behind the scenes, I just don't know - all I know is that it's bizarre.

 Jorge was able to resolve my questions quickly because 1) As a functional business he had policy in place, and support terms in writing, I asked about things and he refereed me to specific product links, etc that directly answered my questions - he didn't limit himself to 1 sentence or get stressed because what I'm asking is beyond the normal " do you have x in stock, can you ship it by x?"

 Think about it from this angle - more food for thought. Lets say TTVJ, RSA or Headamp didn't have a community like this to support them, the understanding and supportive nature of the enthusiast. If they were selling to the general public they would have bankrupted themselves eons ago. I would be happy to be proven wrong in this thought, but I don't see it any other way, the general public simple would not stand for that level of service, or lack thereof.


----------



## immtbiker

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hatmann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_If this offends you, please turn the page or hit the delete key. Attacking the messenger -- or questioning his motive -- is really not an appropriate response._

 

I'm sorry if you took my comments as "attacking the messenger". I was not. This is not personal (unless you want to make it so). Also, I am not questioning your motive, I am merely stating the reality (as I see it) of this situation. These conversations historically split into 2 camps. That is fact. Members have a right to make a purchase from an MOT if they want, or not, that is fact. Nothing I said was aggressive or in any way stated to throw flames at you. Just stating fact. Trying to change a manufacturer's methods usually doesn't work so well. In this thread and the Krell thread, it seems that you are trying to "protect" other members and I appreciate that, but I *am* allowed to have an opinion on the matter. 

 This does not "offend" me. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thisbenjamin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Trust me, the rainbow colored two and a half inch signature tells it all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 In general the assumption is that everyone is here because of a disproportionally passionate love of music, compared to the average Joe.

 I would agree that there is a lot of unconstrained criticism made on these forums, whining about silly things or throwing things out of proportion (to each there own), however I think this thread from creation to comments through out has been for the most part handled politely, with only the best of intentions. It is entirely possible to provide feedback, and produce constructive criticism in regards to the resellers here, whom we feed - and that is exactly what's happening._

 

Well said, and I might actually agree with some of what you said (not that I would ever admit it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

 Listen thisbenjamin, when you are referring to to multiple quotes, try using the multiquote 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 feature, so it doesn't cloud up a thread and falsely inflate your post count (that was a moderator suggestion, not a member one). Cool dat?


----------



## thisbenjamin

A very reasonable request, I'll adopt to multi quotes - post count be damned


----------



## jamato8

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thisbenjamin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_
 Think about it from this angle - more food for thought. Lets say TTVJ, RSA or Headamp didn't have a community like this to support them, the understanding and supportive nature of the enthusiast. If they were selling to the general public they would have bankrupted themselves eons ago. I would be happy to be proven wrong in this thought, but I don't see it any other way, the general public simple would not stand for that level of service, or lack thereof._

 

HeadFi is not the only online headphone oriented forum nor is the US the only large consumer of amps etc, and in some cases there are other countries that consume more. It still appears to me that your dealings with Ray helped you to refine and define what your actual needs were/are.


----------



## thisbenjamin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *jamato8* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It still appears to me that your dealings with Ray helped you to refine and define what your actual needs were/are._

 

I fail to see how you come to that conclusion. Project developments occurred entirely within research, the only contribution Ray made was agreeing with a thought of mine in that tubes are well, they're fancy and draw people's attention. Could you help me with any other examples? In regards to funding, yes Japan, the EU, Canada and the world at large (I'm talking to YOU Scotland) - I should have been more pointed in my thoughts, when I was speaking of the community and these forums, I mean all the people attached to those that read and review here, the people we share our experiences with and our brothers and sisters in other countries - we as a whole, headphone nuts.

 Another update - Justin has contacted me. As I assumed he's a busy fella and basically runs the shop solo. He was overwhelmed and wasn't sure how to help me initially, this thread caught his attention and he's stepped up to the plate. I call that a success. Thank you Justin.


----------



## kool bubba ice

So Ray 'can't' disclose what dac chip is used? Maybe the dac chip used is subpar..


----------



## thisbenjamin

Well, we know what dac he's using - see previous posts. And yes it is a jitter monster


----------



## thisbenjamin

btw - if anyone wants to bring a dac to the next Seattle meat that has a USB interface, I can bring a dev kit an throw the thing into a debug state -- if anyone is curious and what they've got, exactly.


----------



## fatman

I don't think this thread ought to go on any more.


----------



## nickyboyo

I wouldn't worry fatman, the fact that there are people on this, and i am sure other forums with a seemingly anti RSA agenda has made the comments within this thread become trite and pretty close to meaningless. The quality of RSA amps speaks for itself, especially when you look at the interest generated by the introduction of every portable amp Ray puts out. The RSA quality, and the other amps delivered by the other main producers eg. Headamp, iBasso and others, will always overcome the naysayers attempts to show whatever producer in a bad light.
 On a personal note- I just wish we could have the pico dac combined with the predator amp section, then there would be a lot of happy bunnies out there- i am only going off hearsay from various people who have had experience with the predator as an amp ( hint hint, any Aussies with a predator or pico just gathering dust, i would love to take it for a test drive for a week or two 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## Duggeh

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *nickyboyo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I wouldn't worry fatman, the fact that there are people on this, and i am sure other forums with a seemingly anti RSA agenda has made the comments within this thread become trite and pretty close to meaningless. The quality of RSA amps speaks for itself, especially when you look at the interest generated by the introduction of every portable amp Ray puts out. The RSA quality, and the other amps delivered by the other main producers eg. Headamp, iBasso and others, will always overcome the naysayers attempts to show whatever producer in a bad light.
 On a personal note- I just wish we could have the pico dac combined with the predator amp section, then there would be a lot of happy bunnies out there- i am only going off hearsay from various people who have had experience with the predator as an amp ( hint hint, any Aussies with a predator or pico just gathering dust, i would love to take it for a test drive for a week or two 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)_

 


 Would you want that potentially dangerous out of spec charging circuit from the RSA half of this mystical device?


----------



## thisbenjamin

Duggeh makes me lol. Thank you Duggeh.


----------



## fzman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *uday1583* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The manufacturers are obliged to provide the specifications of a product in advance. Consumers have a right to know what they are buying. and i feel they also have a right to ask what they are buying -- and to point out when a manufacturer refuses to answer._

 

I think your claims are too vague - surely there are limitations on these rights-- more specifically it is an open issue what obligations are entailed by these rights, and to what degree. For food products, where specific ingredients can be dangerous given food allergies and medical conditions, their presence has to be disclosed. There is no hazard to public or private safety if you don't know what dac chip is in your component. 



 also, (and not relevant to your assertions) one thing that seems to be overlooked is the fact that urban lore develops around specific parts, often with no basis in fact. This can also hurt sales, since a potential customer might misjudge the merits of a product, and would actually like it. My understanding is that Ray allows returns, with no restock fee, so there is very minimal risk to try a product.


----------



## thisbenjamin

whats with the food analogies fzman? if you're hungry I recommend a nice bobboncini and tomato salad, all ingredients should be fairly open-source, as it were.

 fighting the PR battle is something every vendor must face, this route of obfuscation is not the path to insuring your product remains without critique, or avoids the critical eye of the enthusiast. If you believe in your product, and it can stand on it's own legs you should have nothing to fear.


----------



## Abstraction

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Hatmann* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I'm looking for a DAC/amp and asked Ray Samuels what DAC he uses in his Predator. He replied:

 The best USB DAC in the market. it just sounds great. Yes we have it in stock.
 know what they are buying._

 

I am using a Timbre tt-1 dac from the late 90s, and do USB conversion with an EMpirical Off-Ramp. Although I have thought I should replace it, as digital technology has greatly advanced, I haven't found anything that I could afford that sounded better. Any way, this is point: Gordon Rankin, the maker of Wavelength DACs, told me that he had worked with John Kukulka, the designer of the tt-1, and that he filed the parts numbers off of the parts. I do not know because he put the case together with locking nuts that takes a special tool to open.

 I may decide I need play 96/24 material, but a Wavelength Cosecant did not sound enough better to justiify the price $3500 or whatever it is.


----------



## thisbenjamin

Very interesting that you bring that up. Now, without wavelength getting involved i'm going to throw out a wild guess, as I've read up on that dac. I have never heard it but I understand that the asic inside of that dac is running code for the dac process entirely unique to Gordon Rankin. I do know the same code has been licensed by Ayre Ayre Acoustics First To License Wavelength Audio's USB DAC Technology, so the screw lock mechanism might be an attempt to disallow anyone from doing a hardware level dump of the contents of any roms / memory or the asics / ics themselves - something that unless he's schooled in the arena of embedded systems security, it's not a bad idea for a low budget attempt to keep his work secure for the time being. 

 On the other hand if you visit Wavelengths site, they go into detail as to the process, theory and ideals of the design.


----------



## Ray Samuels

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thisbenjamin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_whats with the food analogies fzman? if you're hungry I recommend a nice bobboncini and tomato salad, all ingredients should be fairly open-source, as it were.

 fighting the PR battle is something every vendor must face, this route of obfuscation is not the path to insuring your product remains without critique, or avoids the critical eye of the enthusiast. If you believe in your product, and it can stand on it's own legs you should have nothing to fear._

 

What surprises me when I read you recent posts is that they tend to reflect a different personality with a different look at my products, than that which you have pictured in your ten e-mails. You even wanted to help me getting some exposure from new listeners. My question for you is this. You already know I do not specify the chips I use in my amps for a good eight years, since I have been in business. That did not bother you at all when you were asking for some of my amps at discounted prices. This is what you wrote… 

 “You make some incredibly beautiful equipment, both design and esthetics. I was able to listen to your Raptor and Apache at a recent hifi meet and was blown away, with all the Chinese and Japanese components flooding the market it’s good to know American made remains on top.”

 Now your tone has shifted into bashing the same amps you praised not long ago. You do have the right to think what ever regarding the RSA products. Why suddenly you want to know what is in my amps & want others to help you? Didn’t you write these words copied from one of your e-mails?

 “If you don’t want to expose your design to the masses, I completely respect that.”

 DID YOU????
 Ray Samuels


----------



## thisbenjamin

Having only heard from others, and their opinions of yourself I had only the utmost respect for your designs and you as a businessman. Having personal experience now reveals in dealing with you, that things are not as good as they seem - and upon researching the problems I had, found that I was not the only one. I disappointingly cannot in conscience support your business or your platform, unless significant changes are made.

 The salt of a person is not who they are when times are good, and when everything works - but when they're under pressure. What happens when I've got 3 broken amps, and lines of customers wanting to us them and I can't get a hold of you because you're just over whelmed? What if I have to issue repairs for something and it has to be done today but all the designs have had their part numbers removed? Your platform is not tenable to supporting my project, I wish it was Ray.


----------



## Edwood

Am I the only one that found this thread title funny?









 Anyways, back to the hate/love fest.


----------



## fzman

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thisbenjamin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_whats with the food analogies fzman? if you're hungry I recommend a nice bobboncini and tomato salad, all ingredients should be fairly open-source, as it were._

 

what's a bobboncini? 

 the food analogy was supposed to be speak to the issue of consumers' right(s) to know what is in consumer products. Food and medicine are special cases, and there are extra disclosure requirements consistent with trade-secrecy being maintained. While it's pretty obvious that there's sugar in candy bars, and granulated sugar, e.g., a diabetic may not know that there's sugar in ketchup -- and it is medically necessary to know that.

 it is a dissanalogy with audio gear- and that was specifically the point! 

 Just for the record, I have never met Ray, have never heard one of his products, and the company I work for (and I am speaking solely for myself here), does not sell his products.


----------



## thisbenjamin

it's a silly term for fresh mozzarella 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 when I get low on energy it's quick meal that helps me get on my feat again. plus I just love good cheese.

 I suppose some of the confusion is that, to my knowledge you guys supported / whipped up a USofA made usb dac in 2 models on the cheap to help champion hifi to the budget crowd, and afaik - (I'll poke around later) you guys aren't being all secret squirrel with the parts. between that and the fact that you helped mofi, you guys deserve some kind of hifi plaque, or at least a t-shirt.. something.

 also edwood - thank you for bringing that up, I lol'd coffee out my nose when it clicked


----------



## fzman

Thisbenjamin, the usb dacs you are referring to are made by HRT, not us, although we sell them, and they are quite good-- they were designed by Kevin from Muse. We do own MoFi though.


----------



## thisbenjamin

My bad, I thought you guys helped fund them or something. In any case I looked them up;

High Resolution Technologies image & review gallery

 I think they're photo-shopped out, not sanded. In any case I need to pick one up and see, who can resist a 150 dollar USofA made usb dac? Even if it's no mind blowing I'm sure I can find a use for it.


----------



## Edwood

Back to the Food Analogy.

 Ingredients only tell a small part of the story. While you can determine nutrition from ingredients, you really can't determine if it will taste great or not.

 Sure, you can use the same ingredients as a head chef at a 5 star restaurant. But can you make food that looks and tastes just as great?

 -Ed


----------



## thisbenjamin

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Edwood* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Back to the Food Analogy.

 Sure, you can use the same ingredients as a head chef at a 5 star restaurant. But can you make food that looks and tastes just as great?

 -Ed_

 

This is why I think knowing the ICs is such a trivial thing, it raises more questions than it answers. It is absolutely the case that the sum of the design is greater than the parts used, implementation is key here, well assuming you're using quality parts.

 Also thanks, now I'm hungry guys and I can't leave for a few hours.


----------



## itsborken

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thisbenjamin* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_My bad, I thought you guys helped fund them or something. In any case I looked them up;

High Resolution Technologies image & review gallery

 I think they're photo-shopped out, not sanded. In any case I need to pick one up and see, who can resist a 150 dollar USofA made usb dac? Even if it's no mind blowing I'm sure I can find a use for it._

 

If you are really worried about knowing the design of a dac, why not do your projects with Alien/cmoy or Gamma1/mini3s? Everything is fully disclosed and you can certainly crack them open at any time. Don't even worry about supporting a vendor.


----------



## thisbenjamin

you're smack on borken, the problem I have is that In this case I need an OEM specifically to hold someone accountable for the product hardware, doing a one off design of a circuit is fine - we can do that. What I can't do is design and support full scale this project internally. that is otherwise an excellent, and would normally be my preferred route (read - it's cheaper! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## boomy3555

Would you expect to go to Motorola and ask them what dac they put in thier "Chocolate" phone? . I have met Ray, and he's an amazing personality. Especially in his element. Ray handed me one of his predators and I can say that he can have his secret DAC, because the predator is so incredible that brand of DAC dosn't matter to me. As far as his supposed customer service skills, Ray is an artist and although he has a company he needs to run and C/S issue to address, it's about the art of the sound to him. Quite an amazing person from my short time spent at a meet.


----------



## thisbenjamin

His personality isn't in question in fact its moot in this discussion. The experiance dealing with him in a professional context through his sales platform is what is, and in that he has failed, without remorse or even batting his eyes. He hasn't once addressed the customer service problems, in place he continues to blame me for having the crazy notion he might be interesting in persuing sales. 

 I bet each and every person on this forum in their "element" is a wonderful person with excellent qualities, and a heart as big as the son. Its a sad state of affairs that these qualities aren't driving Rays storefront.


----------



## boomy3555

We can walk into a Walmart and pick something off the shelf. we can order an Ipod online and have it engraved before the credit card is even charged and then have it shipped next day.. We as consumers have been so spoiled by super fast this and high bandwith that, that we expect everytihng in life to go that way. We have no patience and rail at things we don't feel fit into the "norm". The personality and diversity of life is passing us by at 3gb per second and we get mad when things don't happen the way we expect.
 It's Ray's company and he'll run it the way he wants. You are certainly welcome to come here and express your dissatisfaction, but remember RSA is a top contender with many, many, Head-fi'ers singing thier praises. The Music is what drives Ray's "storefront" so don't expect Walmart or Apple experiences.


----------



## boomy3555

Benjamin is entitled to his opinion and we can choose to read it or not. And we can also choose to disagree. I don't know who he is but he seem quite passionate about his concerns and he wasn't even the OP, He started posting on page three and has never even heard a Predator and it seems like Ray is not the only vendor that blew him off.

 Quote:

 think Ray has just gotten to the point that he's only really excited or interested in the high end product he sells, and everything else more or less suffers. I try to be sympathetic but when, i've sent scores of emails to Todd, Jason and Ray in regards to purchasing product only to either never receive a response, it's a little disheartening. I'll give everyone here a perfect example.

 I sent 3 emails each to TTVJ, Jason at Headamp, and RSA explaining a project I'm working at for a NPO and my desire to set up a hifi exibit to showcase current portable audio, but more in point to try and convert the masses of Ipod users to hifi. I recieved no respones from either of the first two and while Ray was helpful at first, when he found out that the first phase of the deployment would only use portable amps in place of the higher dollar preamps, I stopped hearing from him and the last email I got was 


 Quote:
 601 are not designed to be used as portable headphones, they are in efficient & have no bottom end with small sound stage. I really don't understand your e-mail any more.
 I am truly very busy to keep this up.
 Cheers
 Ray Samuels 
 This is after 4 emails, short pointed questions about pricing, impact on long term use and scale of support. The interesting thing is the last email I sent him was a request to purchase a SR71A and I never heard back. It's a free open market, and Ray has every right to ignore me - I'm simply disheartened that he chose to.


----------



## thisbenjamin

I've never been in a walmar so you'll have to forgive my missing the point you are making. I can only say that as a cconsumer my only interests of an oem is that of a interest to maintain a somewhat basic level of professional service, and the ability to awnser email requests in areasonable amount of time. That might not matter to some of yo but its a requirement of my position and my firm. u


----------



## boomy3555

I'm just saying that you're wasting so much time and energy on something you have no control over. High End Audio, Especially Headphone specific audio is still a Niche and you will find that professional interactions will most likely NOT be what you can expect from mainstream Electronics distributors. Channel your energies into something you can control.


----------



## immtbiker

AND


----------

