# UPGRADING THE CRYSTAL (X0) ON ESSENCE STX



## GWorlDofSPACE

There are many users who bought the STX whit a crystal that has 50-100 ps. 
 Its a 2 pin smd ceramic crystal marked IT 475 and 24,576 Mhz. 
 I am a person who wants the maximum out of the STX, so I will try to upgrade the crystal true the JZ-1 clock from kingwa. This crystal has 5ps and will swing on 24,576 Mhz. 

 Yes you will say sell the STX and buy ST but the ST has the same X0! Only difference is the added filtering chip that reduces jitter! So I will replace the source of the problem not try to reduce it whit filtering.

 Here is a picture of the JZ-1 and the location of the IT475 on STX


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## ROBSCIX

Keep us posted.


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## leeperry

indeed, but the ebay link I posted in your other thread shows that the 1ppm clock they're selling will lose ±2 ppm/year....adding a chip to clean a noisy clock might actually be a better option than having an uber-accurate clock worsening everyday.

 just my


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## ROBSCIX

Yes, but that module is more then just a XO. There is clean-up circuitry also.
 If Kingwa used a higher quality clock to begin with is also a factor.


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## leeperry

and the CS2000 chip can fall down to up to 0.5ppm.


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## moonboy403

Essence STX Maxxxxed.


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## leeperry

there's a good explanation of what an improved clock does here : Burson Clock

  Quote:


 By reducing the jitter error, you will hear clearer positioning, also details are further refined vocally and instrumentally. Sound stage and positioning will improve noticeably and that includes deeper sound stage and darker background. 
 

it's exactly what I noticed when switching from the STX to the ST...but -and there's a but- the LME49720HA really dishes out too many details on top of it IMO. I read some ppl saying that it was too detailed to their taste, and it's really over the top on the ST. very fatiguing, there's too much stereophonic data for the brain to process....or maybe I'll get used to it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and going ST>STX afterwards gives the impression of a "muddy"/less clear stereo image.


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## ROBSCIX

Your brain gets used to alot of over time. This is also why one opamps can sound very good when you first hear it but over a period of time you will start to hear all the negatives aswell as the positives. Some say there is no such thing as Opamp burn-in as they are silicon chips. They say your brain is just getting used to the response.

 As for what a better clock does, Yes. It is digital audio 101. The master clock enables the DAC and ADC and they are supposed to be timed precisely. With a jittery clock, the timing pulses start to early or end to late or both..Converting the audio at incorret times which distorts the output and you will get artifacting that is mathematically related to the jitter timings.
 Listen to your STX for awhile and let your ears/brain get used to it again.

 A few guys I know upgraded their XM's with high precision clocks and they said the difference was very noticable.


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## leeperry

yep, but CPU's have been proven to burn-in..there's a very technical explanation on a french hardware site : Google Translate

 it's not exactly burn-in, it's actually "annealing" : Annealing - Google Search


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## ROBSCIX

The burn-in topic is one that will be argued forever on this forum and others I have read pretty much everything I could find that related to silicon burn-in with relation to opamps and audio aswell as other component. Some say yes and some say no. That is not the topic though.. The point I was trying to make is your brain gets used to a sonic profile over time also.
 ..Anyway,
 Crossfeed plugins are like any other effect in that some like them and some do not.
 If you like it use it.
 I think we are getting off topic, back to the XO.

 @GworlDofSPACE
 Do you already have the the improved module
 Too bad you don't have two STX's to test them you could do before and after comparisons.


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes, but that module is more then just a XO. There is clean-up circuitry also.
 If Kingwa used a higher quality clock to begin with is also a factor._

 

hehe, I see you've edited your post 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well, the additional latency by running wires from the original PCB clock location to this new PCB will be a deal breaker IMO...for the same reason they always keep the VRAM as close to the GPU as possible, we're talking about nanoseconds here...PCB design takes all that latency in account.

 putting a compatible same-sized higher accuracy clock MIGHT be an option, but attaching a third party PCB is doomed to fail IMO. in the best scenario, it will "work" but the latency will kill any possible improvement....in the worst scenario, the audio will be terrible.

 and on that photo the original PLL is 33.8Mhz..

 anyway, I think I'm getting used to the better clock on the ST w/ headphones...my brain is not used to hear such a pure stereo signal I guess


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## ROBSCIX

Editing posts is common. Especially when people cannot be bothered arguing.

 Try out the clock and let us know what you find.


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Editing posts is common. Especially when people cannot be bothered arguing._

 

haha, right! in your initial post you were saying that I had a point...but you were then taken by remorses and decided to back-flip 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you mister really are the master of the interwebb, I had no idea you could edit teh post! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anyway, this project is doomed to fail due to the reasons given above...I just hope it won't cost too much to the OP in the end


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Dont be concerned about me leeperry.
 The first of all I have found some interesting info about the av100 chip. This chip is a C-media Oxygen HD CMI8787. I found the crystal is connected to pin 46 and 47. I will put the output of JZ1 very short wire to the input of the av chip and the ground is the problem it should be near the original crystal. SO???


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Ah forgot to tell you leeperry, this clock will be made for 24,576Mhz. On the picture is just a sample!


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_haha, right! in your initial post you were saying that I had a point...but you were then taken by remorses and decided to back-flip 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 you mister really are the master of the interwebb, I had no idea you could edit teh post! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anyway, this project is doomed to fail due to the reasons given above...I just hope it won't cost too much to the OP in the end 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

I thought you did have a point but you did not...He is not just using a simple crystal. The module he has has other circuitry aswell including tuning controls judging by the layout. -So in the end you did not have a point because you were comparing apples to oranges.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Dont be concerned about me leeperry.
 The first of all I have found some interesting info about the av100 chip. This chip is a C-media Oxygen HD CMI8787. I found the crystal is connected to pin 46 and 47. I will put the output of JZ1 very short wire to the input of the av chip and the ground is the problem it should be near the original crystal. SO???_

 

See, very simple procedure. I have spoke with a few people that have changed out the clocks on their cards and had great returns. You can buy these modules because you use them to upgrade CD players and improve the sound quality. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 You need to decide if this modification is right for you or not.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

For me its right. I just need you guys to see if the work is going in the right direction and I do not a stupid mistake because I dont now where to wire the ground too because dont have any experience whit multi layer pcb!


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## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I found the crystal is connected to pin 46 and 47. I will put the output of JZ1 very short wire to the input of the av chip_

 

lol ok, you're gonna do it the hard way 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I still think it's a lot of trouble compared to simply buying a ST, but that sure looks most intriguing


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## GWorlDofSPACE

NO RISK NO FUN...


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## ROBSCIX

Many people I know modify there cards as soon as they get them. Improving on the design and getting the most out of their cards.

 Make sure you understand every detail of the mod before you do it. Keep the stock clock so you can always un-mod the cards if you want.
 I am going to be performing some more mods on one of my cards here soon.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes. I will do my homework. Which card and what are you attend to do?


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## ROBSCIX

I have a few ideas for a few different cards. I will drop you a PM.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Hi guys!
 I have upgraded the clock. Here are some pictures.
 First impressions are very positive. Here are some notes:
 -improvement in space (deep and wide)
 -more precise projection of different sounds 
 -the first time I noticed that some of the instruments are more forward than others.
 -the music is more relaxed - fluid 
 -the bass is a bomb, very precise and deep
 -music is more alive
 -dynamics

 The installation was easy:
 -unsolder the old crystal and solder the new on it. (the signal on pin 46 and the ground was found near the old crystal.)

 Here are some pictures:


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## leeperry

very nice, any chance for higher res pics please?

 and what are the white caps on the burson?

 what are the improvements between the LME49720NA/LM4562NA and the burson in your opinion? night and day? 50% better? what's better exactly? hope you can help 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 yes, the stock STX clock is really holding it back...that's for sure!


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi guys!
 I have upgraded the clock. Here are some pictures.
 First impressions are very positive. Here are some notes:
 -improvement in space (deep and wide)
 -more precise projection of different sounds 
 -the first time I noticed that some of the instruments are more forward than others.
 -the music is more relaxed - fluid 
 -the bass is a bomb, very precise and deep
 -music is more alive
 -dynamics

 The installation was easy:
 -unsolder the old crystal and solder the new on it. (the signal on pin 46 and the ground was found near the old crystal.)

 Here are some pictures:











_

 

Great stuff. Looks great and probably sounds better. See told you there was nothing to the mod.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Enjoy.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_very nice, any chance for higher res pics please?

*MAYBE IN FUTURE*)

 and what are the white caps on the burson?

*THEY ARE FOR STABILIZING THE POWER SUPPLY. * 

 what are the improvements between the LME49720NA/LM4562NA and the burson in your opinion? 

*I THINK THE BURSONS V2 ARE MORE NATURAL, DYNAMIC AND DETAILED SOUNDING.
 I DID NOT NOTICE SOME DETAILS BEFORE WHIT THE LME...*

 night and day? 50% better? what's better exactly? hope you can help 
 FOR ME IT WAS NIGHT AND DAY... 






 yes, the stock STX clock is really holding it back...that's for sure!_

 

*YES IT LOOKS LIKE THE DIFFERENCE IS HUGE. THE GREATEST IMPROVEMENTS I EXPERIENCE WHIT ORCHESTRAL MUSIC WHIT MANY INSTRUMENTS PLAYING TOGETHER. NOW THE STX IS PLAYING SO CRYSTAL CLEAR...I JUST NEED TO LISTEN EVERY TITLE AGAIN AND AGAIN ITS AMAZING. *


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## ROBSCIX

You the man. Nice.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

There is only one thing to do. The PSU. 
 Finally we figured out it might be the transformer, so I am waiting for a new one.
 I am looking forward to that. 
 ROBSCIX: Try the upgrade of clock!!!


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## ROBSCIX

I am considering it. I need a precision clock anyway.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

I think the audio-gd JZ-1 is almost the same as the bursons one. There is maybe only the price difference))


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## leeperry

are the big white caps given w/ the burson? the extensions as well? it's as simple as plugging them in, lying them on the card...and that's all?

 so the sound is not more distorted(as the specs seem to suggest when comparing LME49720<>burson), but is actually more detailed? and how about the soundstage against the 49720NA? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 last question, how long is the burson that's on the external side of the card? looks like ±6cm bigger than the card? not sure it'd fit in my ATX case...


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## ROBSCIX

Lee, the THD measurment does not relate directly to sound quality. You cannot look at the number and guess how a part will sound.


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## leeperry

yes, I can imagine...especially considering that depending on the FFT size you can make the THD/THD+N figures become totally meaningless 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well, if it's easy as 1-2-3 I'll dive into discrete anytime soon....all these imperfect tiny IC's are getting on my nerves


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes, I can imagine...especially considering that depending on the FFT size you can make the THD/THD+N figures become totally meaningless 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well, if it's easy as 1-2-3 I'll dive into discrete anytime soon....all these imperfect tiny IC's are getting on my nerves 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

)))you should try it! I figured out how to upgrade it. So if you need any help just ask))


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yes, I can imagine...especially considering that depending on the FFT size you can make the THD/THD+N figures become totally meaningless 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well, if it's easy as 1-2-3 I'll dive into discrete anytime soon....all these imperfect tiny IC's are getting on my nerves 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Did I mention that I use discretes or a combination of chip and discrete?

 Right now I am using twin OPA-Earths and a custom built dual LME49710HA for buffer.
 I change them out quite a bit for testing though.


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## ROBSCIX

So the ST has a cleanup chip that makes the normal jittery XO cleaner and more precise. If you used this clock in a ST it would make the timing signal very precise.
 I am unsure if it is needed on the ST.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_are the big white caps given w/ the burson? 

 No. But its recommended.

 the extensions as well? it's as simple as plugging them in, lying them on the card...and that's all?

 You have to solder it on adapters or on the board.

 so the sound is not more distorted(as the specs seem to suggest when comparing LME49720<>burson), but is actually more detailed?
 Its more detailed. 

 and how about the soundstage against the 49720NA? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I dont really remember it.. sorry its long time ago.

 last question, how long is the burson that's on the external side of the card? 

 Yes, maybe 5-6cm.)

 looks like ±6cm bigger than the card? not sure it'd fit in my ATX case...

 You can find other solution, to put it on the other side, or ....._

 

Not a big problem to install the bursons.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

There would be a great one if one of you guys that has all two cards, will upgrade the STX whit a new clock like mine and compare it to the ST version!!! 
 I would love to hear the comments)


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## leeperry

well, I've sold my STX...and I don't have the cojones to do anything like that anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ok thanks for the replies, I'll see if 6 cm would fit in front of my PCI cards in the case.

 so where did you get the big white caps? so you had to solder the burson on adapters? they're also not given w/ the burson? ouh, that sounds like headaches...and I like the 49720NA anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 they say that at some point you have to add a lot more money for a very little actual gain.

 I'm not sure you'd agree, but it'd appear that if the 5532/2114 is 0%, then the 4562 is 70% and the burson 100%.....70% improvement costs $10, 100% costs $150 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and I'm afraid the soundstage wouldn't be as wide...


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## ROBSCIX

You'll never know without actually hearing one.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, I've sold my STX...and I don't have the cojones to do anything like that anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ok thanks for the replies, I'll see if 6 cm would fit in front of my PCI cards in the case.

*OK.*

 so where did you get the big white caps? 

*THIS ARE M-CAPS (MUNDORF MKP) 1UF YOU CAN BUY THEM OVER THE NET.*

 so you had to solder the burson on adapters? 

*YES, BUT NOW I LOST MY GUARANTY SO I WILL IN FUTURE SOLDER IT TO THE BOARD. ITS BETTER CONTACT.*

 they're also not given w/ the burson? 

*NOT, THEY SAID ITS YOUR CHOICE WHICH OF THE CAPS YOU WANT TO USE*

 ouh, that sounds like headaches...and I like the 49720NA anyway 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*NO PROBLEM*

 they say that at some point you have to add a lot more money for a very little actual gain.

*YES ITS TRUE, BUT MY COMBO I WOULD SAY CAN BE COMPARED TO A DAC FOR 500$ OR MAYBE MORE!*

 I'm not sure you'd agree, but it'd appear that if the 5532/2114 is 0%, then the 4562 is 70% and the burson 100%.....70% improvement costs $10, 100% costs $150 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*MAYBE...*

 and I'm afraid the soundstage wouldn't be as wide..._

 

*THE SOUNDSTAGE IS WONDERFUL WHIT BURSONS ITS NATURAL*


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## leeperry

the soundstage is not natural at all on the 49720NA, it's surreal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 is it super huge on the burson as well?

 so where did you solder these big white caps to? between 2 pins on the DIP8 adapters?

 you'd rather solder the burson on the board than solder the burson on adapters? the board is more expensive than the burson....and when Asus will release the _Essence Supa Dupa ST Deluxe MKII_ in 3 months, it'll be a PNP story


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## GWorlDofSPACE

I told you I really dont remember about the soundstage whit the LMEs.

 The bursons opamps are delivering natural sound signature whit deep and wide soundstage.

 The big caps are soldered true pin 4 and pin 8. 





 I will do it the best way!


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## leeperry

ok thanks for the clarification....I was hoping to simply the plug the burson, and that's it.

 apparently the Earth OPA can be installed as is w/o any adapters or caps...well the 49720NA soundstage is not natural at all!


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## GWorlDofSPACE

But will they fit into your ATX case or will you use extension cables?


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## leeperry

if I get it right, I can just buy the extension cords for the Earth OPA....plug them in the DIP8 holders of the Essence, and I'm good to go ?!

 apparently the burson required additional caps, and a DIP8 male adapter to plug into the Essence ?

 so basically for <50 EUR shipped, I get 2 Earth OPA + their extension cords....it'll plug in the ST I/V as is.


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## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_if I get it right, I can just buy the extension cords for the Earth OPA....plug them in the DIP8 holders of the STX, and I'm good to go ?!

 apparently the burson required additional caps, and a DIP8 male adapter to plug into the STX?

 so basically for <50 EUR shipped, I get 2 Earth OPA + their extension cords....it'll plug in the STX I/V as is._

 

STX, don't you mean ST?
 You said earlier you sold your STX in favor of the ST.


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## ROBSCIX

OPA Earth make great I/V...


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## leeperry

oops yeah, ST. but these discrete parts need a lot of power....reason why they advise to put additional caps like GWorld did? ah well..


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## GWorlDofSPACE

My bursons need 50mA per unit = 150 mA 
 The caps stabilize the power supply and dont ler the opamp oscillate!


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## leeperry

so if I was to buy two earth opa, install them on the ST...they would oscillate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 apparently an oscillating op-amp will sound very much bass-shy, or even crackle? it's annoying that the burson cannot be installed on the card when you buy it stock, you have to order DIP8 adapters from somewhere else and solder them


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## GWorlDofSPACE

The earth has two caps installed on it!! You dont need to buy it separately.


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## leeperry

ok cool! so I can order 2 earth w/ the extensions...that will fit in the DIP8 holders on the Essence, and we're cool?

 but on the burson, I'd need to add 2 caps, and solder all that mess on DIP8 holders? so they're not only 50% more expensive than the Earth...you need order additional stuff and solder them together 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 it's not clear to me if the extension cord connector on the Earth can fit in the DIP8 holders of the Essence, or if it's meant to be soldered on a PCB...

 I've read many ppl saying that the Earth and the old burson carry the same exact PCB and components....also that the new Burson V2 is just commercial fluff, and that the Earth is already really cool stuff. for 50 EUR shipped, that sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me


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## fzman

the mundorfs are good caps, and they are being used as local power supply bypasses, by connecting across the power pins on the opamps. bypassing is a bit of trial and error, and you usually need pretty fast caps for that role. physical size is often a decent indicator of the speed of a cap. you can also bypass by doing V+ to ground and V- to ground, tying the grouns of the two caps together at the opamp, and soldering them as close to the power pins as possible. different uf values and constructions will yield different sonics.

 i have not tried this on the essence or prodigy sound cards yet, but have in a diy headphone amp i built using the lme49713 current-feedback opamps, and they do make a small but important difference.

 oscillation manifests in several ways -- mostly it heats up the parts and muddies bass, and puts extra zing/detail in the upper mids and highs-- which lots of people thinnk is an enjoyable sonic signature -- i think some people (no, i am not referring to anyone specific here) are actually addicted to the sound of oscillation-- "wow listen to all that detail!!!!"

 opamps are not always drop-in replacements, because of the required support circuitry, which on many of these sound cards are teeny tiny smd parts, which most diy-ers (myself included) don't have the tools/technique/test instruments to really deal with correctly


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## leeperry

the first time I put the 49720NA on my brand new unused STX, the sound was definitely oscillating...it was very much audible 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 do you know what the gain is on the I/V op-amps of the STX? some op-amps require a gain of 1 or 2...I'm clueless


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## ROBSCIX

You connect the wires to the socket and connect the other end to the opamp.


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## GWorlDofSPACE

*REVIEW OF AUDIO-GD X0 ON MY XONAR ESSENCE STX*

 I was turned on from the STX as a very good intern pc DAC solution but after one month I upgraded it whit burson opamps and was the opening session to achieve more excellence in the sound structure. The music immediately began to grove in every way. In all fields the sound improved. But when I listened it was not really a filling that you sit in front of the artist and instruments. The dynamics of single instruments when you are in opera or concert was not so natural present. The sound signature was not really natural or alive. This is my conclusion after the clock upgrade. 

 AFTER THE CLOCK UPGRADE
 The first impressions were very good. But you know how it is, the emotions are in front of the reality and your judgement is not objective enough, so I went to sleep....
 The next two days I listened the whole music on my computer to see what was going on whit the music. 

 Four days are left since the upgrade and I must listen every title two times. 
 There is so much difference. I can hear the music is acting in front of my. I hear every detail in such a clarity and dynamics that for know its a night and day in my experience whit the STX. The sound stage is so real so real and big that sometimes I am wondering what I have been all missing. 
 When I close my eyes the hole thing is so real and alive that I can imagine all the instruments playing in a room whit me. 
 The clock whit 5pp is making a really big big difference in the STX. If you just take the bass for example, without the upgrade ok it was good but sometimes not precise and deep enough but that changed so dramatically. Now I hear the drums I a different prospective they are not just bummm but have been multidimentional illumination. The treble is so clear and defined but smooth. But the midds are to die for. 
 My music experience is being just bimed in a new dimension. I would clear say the ST has a more clear and real , alive sound structure. I did not believe the clock would make such a difference. For future I would love to see a review from a ST against an upgraded clock of mine.
 I am sitting and listening to the wonderful music played and in front of me its a concert room full whit imaginations I never had before.
 "The music is flowing, its alive and so dam clear" and by time to time I wake up because of the dynamics in music.


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## leeperry

yep, the improved clock just makes the SS so much more meaningful and natural sounding....makes you wonder about all these ppl buying crazily expensive DAC's, that are based on high jitter clocks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I even read that some killer DAC's would reclock and resample everything at 192KHz to overcome jitter....geez, some designers should really get a clue 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the diff between the STX and ST to me(I switched several times to be sure) are exactly as you say, the ST has a much wider and clearer SS....in comparison the STX gives a messy stereo image.

 Can your clock achieve 0.5 ppm? that's what the ST clock conditioner can reach from what the datasheet says.

 the other thing to take in account is that the STX measures better in technical tests(like RMAA), so a modded STX might actually be a better option than the ST.

 does it take rocket science equipment to switch the clock? it doesn't seem to be uber-thin SMD....but I'd be scared to desolder a vital chip on a $200 card 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 if you ever get the chance, making some 24/96 RMAA measurements would be interesting


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_yep, the improved clock just makes the SS so much more meaningful and natural sounding....makes you wonder about all these ppl buying crazily expensive DAC's, that are based on high jitter clocks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I even read that some killer DAC's would reclock and resample everything at 192KHz to overcome jitter....geez, some designers should really get a clue 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 the diff between the STX and ST to me(I switched several times to be sure) are exactly as you say, the ST has a much wider and clearer SS....in comparison the STX gives a messy stereo image.

 Can your clock achieve 0.5 ppm? that's what the ST clock conditioner can reach from what the datasheet says.

*No it is 5pp! * *BUT I DONT THINK ITS A VERY BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN*

 the other thing to take in account is that the STX measures better in technical tests(like RMAA), so a modded STX might actually be a better option than the ST.

*MAYBE*

 does it take rocket science equipment to switch the clock? 

*YOU NEED BASIC EQUIPMENT AND TAKES 10 MINUTES*

 it doesn't seem to be uber-thin SMD....but I'd be scared to desolder a vital chip on a $200 card 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




*YOU JUST REMOVE THE CRYSTAL CHIP, ITS 2 PINS ONLY!!!! NO BIG DEAL
*

 if you ever get the chance, making some 24/96 RMAA measurements would be interesting 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

*I WOULD DO THAT HOW CAN I DO IT?*


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## leeperry

well, what the resolution of the stock clock on the STX?

 there's a good tutorial to RMAA here : http://audio.rightmark.org/downloads...tGuide_V12.pdf

 you need to reach as close to 0dB as possible in the pretest(w/o clipping!), and ideally if you can test both the lineout and HP out(in low/mid/high gain)....this would yield interesting data to compare against my ST measurements


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## GWorlDofSPACE

The stock has between 50pp and 150pp!


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## taso89

From the pics on the second page, I see that you have to replace two of the pins and you have some hookup wire to attach it to the new clock. What about the wire/alligator clips? in the back of the module? Also how did you mount the thing on the Essence? 

 I'm very much interested in potentially doing this myself in the near future since I've gotten into DIY


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## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *taso89* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_From the pics on the second page, I see that you have to replace two of the pins and you have some hookup wire to attach it to the new clock. What about the wire/alligator clips? in the back of the module? Also how did you mount the thing on the Essence? 

 I'm very much interested in potentially doing this myself in the near future since I've gotten into DIY 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

*THIS ARE THE STEPS TO MAKE:
 -first you unsolder the old crystal X1 from the board (two pins)
 -then you mount the new modified crystal on the board.
 -the signal or the output of new crystal whit 24,576Mhz you solder to the right unsoldered pin of the old crystal (pin46-input to av100) and the ground of the new one to the pin 39 on av100 or better for soldering to the near opamp that has the same ground.
 -if you have all done, then just need to solder the power supply on the back of new crystal in my case it was 12V from computer PSU.
 -Thats it!*

 If you want to do let me know I will send you maximized photos!


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Here you can see everything! I build a simple plastic stage and put the new clock on it!


----------



## leeperry

why not installing a 1ppm clock instead of that 5ppm audio-gd stuff? several advantages :
 -no need for a power supply(it will go the normal way through the SANYO caps, that will remove a lot of noise) 
 -better resolution(even if it loses 2ppm/year)
 -just change it every year and you always get <5ppm...possibly on a removable adapter


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

According to some audiophiles the difference between 1pp and 5pp crystals are so little,
 that you are hard to be able hear it out.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

This audio-gd jz1 crystal solution is powered from DC 10-30V and has high fidelity filtering caps and transistors to filter far more noise out of the line as whit this two sanyo caps.. I think its an easy solution, you can also change it easy when you think the crystal has been older)


----------



## leeperry

good point!

 anyway, that's your next upgrade : 8-pin DIP IC Socket

 fotios did it : welcome to* The Electronic Audio Labs* web magazine

 I've called a shop, they said they could do it...but only if the PCB doesn't have more than 2 layers! I will ask fotios

 and anyway, he advised me to get rid of the holders, find the "perfect" op-amps and solder them directly on the PCB!


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_good point!

 anyway, that's your next upgrade : 8-pin DIP IC Socket

 fotios did it : welcome to* The Electronic Audio Labs* web magazine

 I've called a shop, they said they could do it...but only if the PCB doesn't have more than 2 layers! I will ask fotios

 and anyway, he advised me to get rid of the holders, find the "perfect" op-amps and solder them directly on the PCB! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Changing out the DIP sockets is a good upgrade especially if your swapping opamps all the time. More of a mechanical upgrade though. 
 To make sure the contacts are nice and clean and quality.
 You can get some nice opamps sockets gold plated..etc.

 BTW, you really need to shrink down those pics they mak this thread way too wide!

 I was looking at Zero profile sockets. They use the board it self as the socket although I am unsure if they are compatible with this design. The PCB has to be made to accept them I think. I haven't had time to read over the informaiton fully. They look like a product that may be of interest to audio DIY'ers.


----------



## leeperry

ok apparently they've shipped my 5 free samples :





 I'll let you know when I have them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 a friend of mine(who works as an electronician) told me that he could swap them for me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 all you need is a solder sucker and a very sharp soldering iron apparently : YouTube - Intalling Burson Opamp in less than 5 mins

 I'm still undecided on whether I'll send back my ST card, I'll share a photo of the rusty stock DIP8 socket later today 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 but fineart had a problem w/ the 1/4" HP plug that didn't hold his jacks, and mine has a rusty DIP8 socket...maybe Asus could improve QA


----------



## ablaze

Hi GWorlDofSPACE, got inspired by your mods, and installed 3xBursons! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 but as you can see, I did it slightly different. I kept the sockets, and plugged in the Bursons, while aiming for the leads to be as short as possible. one of them had to be tilted a little. (see below)









 also the 2 caps beside I/V opamps had to be shifted.. 




 to the back! 


 those HUGE mundorf's you've got there - what're their specs? Do you remember if they made a difference with the caps on, than without those on? 

 cheers mate, keep up the good stuff!


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Very impressive !!! Congratulations! This is also a very good solution to put the op-amps on the card.
 I am using 1uf M-caps. 
 The sound whit the caps is more relaxed and neutral.
 Please tell me your experience whit the 3B op-amps, how does it sound to you?


----------



## ROBSCIX

There are quite a few people that are using discrete opamps with the STX/ST.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Yes, this is nice.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

ABLAZE! You should try the clock upgrade, its very impressive upgrade. You will not recognise your STX.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Out there!!)
 Has anyone tried the upgrade on the STX???
 I cant wait for more reviews.


----------



## thoppa

Nice upgrades !

 I have the ST and am just about to start the upgrade process. The best clock I've used is a Tent Labs XO but they require a special circuit so I'm going to try something simpler, a Vanguard TCXO which is 1ppm. Like you, I have heard the benefits of low jitter and I think it is one of the most important upgrades to any digital audio circuit. 

Ultra precision 1ppm 24.576MHz TCXO crystal oscillator on eBay (end time 13-Aug-09 07:20:52 BST)


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I heard about the vanguard but I think you should try something like audio-gd jz-1 or tendlabs. They have external PSU source to min. the noise.
 I have experienced that the clock upgrade was far more major then the op amps.


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I have the ST and am just about to start the upgrade process._

 

what for? the clock conditioning IC on the ST can break it down up to 0.5ppm(from what its datasheet says).

 plus these 1ppm clocks worsen overtime, several ppm/year...do you really expect any audible improvement at all


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I say the better choice for my understanding is to upgrade the crystal on the STX instead of selling STX and buying a ST, but if you have the ST, I dont know what would be the results. We should let *thoppa* do his work and then he will make a review then we will know.


----------



## leeperry

well your clock is 5ppm, so theoritically the ST should be tighter. but indeed the STX measures better than the ST in RMAA on the line-out...so it's a mixed bag.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 The ST has a crap clock, just the same as the STX. I won't hear as big a change as STX users because of the CS2000 already improving things. 

 However, a crap clock with clock conditioning is not as good as a good clock with clock conditioning. I hope. I've never tried this before and the CS2000 is new too so i might just be the first person anywhere to try this; a 'frontier' adventure. I've re-clocked lots of stuff but never something that has clock conditioning already. Interesting ? 

 I expect to achieve the CS2000 optimum of 0.5ppm, which i don't think the ST achieves at present, and despite clock degradation over the years, it'll stay ultra-low too. I don't care much if it blows up in 3 years. I'll be looking for something new by then anyway. 

 Will I hear a difference ? Well, that's the whole point isn't it ?! If I don't, I enjoyed the experiment. I've been doing audio DIY as a hobby for 25 years, with some real triumphs and disasters, and a few 240v shocks, but most of all, I really enjoy doing it. And if I do hear an improvement, then maybe this card will start to get close to my SACD/DVD-A ASRC player; it uses a Tent labs XO. 

 For US$25 ? Come on...that's not that much. 

 First to change is the caps, and I'm still waiting for them to come in the post....


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well your clock is 5ppm, so theoritically the ST should be tighter. but indeed the STX measures better than the ST in RMAA on the line-out...so it's a mixed bag._

 

I am really happy whit my upgraded clock. If I had a ST I would upgrade the clock anywhere. To let this craped crystal on it is a sin.)))


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_However, a crap clock with clock conditioning is not as good as a good clock with clock conditioning. I hope. 
 [..] 
 For US$25 ? Come on...that's not that much._

 

well, I've had both the STX and ST...and I've switched them several times. the outcome was that the stereo image was far more accurate/natural/cleaner on the ST, the STX sounded muddy and messy in comparison.

 I know there's always something better out there! the reason why some ppl buy $3K amps...but quite frankly I don't think you would hear an improvement w/ a more accurate clock, as the CS2k IC job is exactly that....increasing the clock accuracy.

 and GWorld believes that the stock clock is around 50ppm, his new Audio-GD clock 5ppm....and that there's no audible difference between 1ppm and 5ppm.

 but anyway, yeah...mod the damn thing already 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 it doesn't seem to be the same package type, so it might prove to be somewhat complicated installing it.

 and these cards have fragile line-in circuits, so if your card goes bad in a few months...you'll be SOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you'd be better off putting these $25 in some Audio-GD discrete op-amps IMHO.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 It's easy to do - really easy. There's in, out and supply, and the current XO has in and out. The hard bit is mounting it well. I have a hot glue gun.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... joke....

 I think the Bursons etc look great, but they aren't 12V optimised it seems and the other major problem for me is I don't have the space. AD8620BR are 12V optimised, awesome performance and already quite pricey. So I doubt I'll bother with discrete op amps, although they do look very interesting. Maybe one day...

 50ppm sounds optimistic - I'd say 100 at least - but there's no easy way to measure..... If you check catalogues for this kind of thing, 50ppm is a good spec for that kind of crystal - highly unlikely that Asus would buy a good crystal and then also get a re-clock chip too. It's much more likely they got a cheap XO and the money they saved on the PCIe bridge chip, was spent on the CS2000, hence the similar pricing. 

 It's just a guess, but based on experience, I'd say the ST is getting to about 10ppm. That's very very good. Off-the-shelf high-end CD transports are comparable. 0.5 x10 = 5, 5 x10 = 50. If you heard a difference between ST and STX, and who wouldn't, then there should be something similar to be heard with a better clock on the ST. I read the datasheet and I don't think the CS2000 can make a bad clock into an excellent one. Better yes, wonderful, well, at the moment, I don't think so. I have a Tent labs XO to compare it to. Anyway, this is the point; to find out. At this stage I think there will be a difference, so I'll try. I think Gwordofspace's STX probably has noticeably lower jitter than the ST. Lucky dude ! 

 I'm really looking at optimising what's there. Hence the first step is the decoupling caps for the op amp and headphone amp circuits. The decoupling and feedback circuit caps closest to the op amps make the most difference, just as rolling op amps makes a big difference. If you've heard the difference between Black Gate FK and ordinary Rubycons then this isn't news to you. FKs might sound too over-detailed/concert hall-ish so that's why I chose Silmic II. Plus FKs are out of production and becoming scarce, so soon they will just be a legend. 

 Man , I can't wait for the parts in the post. Come on Mr Postie !


----------



## leeperry

well Gworld's clock is not 1ppm AFAIK, and it's also got a conditioning IC...sure a 1ppm clock on the ST wouldn't hurt, keep us posted 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 one major bottleneck seems to be the op-amps anyway....any IC will lack in some department.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_well, I've had both the STX and ST...and I've switched them several times. the outcome was that the stereo image was far more accurate/natural/cleaner on the ST, the STX sounded muddy and messy in comparison.

 I know there's always something better out there! the reason why some ppl buy $3K amps...but quite frankly I don't think you would hear an improvement w/ a more accurate clock, as the CS2k IC job is exactly that....increasing the clock accuracy.

 and GWorld believes that the stock clock is around 50ppm, his new Audio-GD clock 5ppm....and that there's no audible difference between 1ppm and 5ppm.

 but anyway, yeah...mod the damn thing already 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 it doesn't seem to be the same package type, so it might prove to be somewhat complicated installing it.

 and these cards have fragile line-in circuits, so if your card goes bad in a few months...you'll be SOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 you'd be better off putting these $25 in some Audio-GD discrete op-amps IMHO._

 

I already upgraded the clock so you have pictures of it. Upgrade is really simple just go to page 2-3 on this forum and look at.
 I said the stock crystal has 50-100pp!!!


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,

 It's easy to do - really easy. There's in, out and supply, and the current XO has in and out. The hard bit is mounting it well. I have a hot glue gun.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... joke....

 I think the Bursons etc look great, but they aren't 12V optimised it seems and the other major problem for me is I don't have the space. AD8620BR are 12V optimised, awesome performance and already quite pricey. So I doubt I'll bother with discrete op amps, although they do look very interesting. Maybe one day...

 50ppm sounds optimistic - I'd say 100 at least - but there's no easy way to measure..... If you check catalogues for this kind of thing, 50ppm is a good spec for that kind of crystal - highly unlikely that Asus would buy a good crystal and then also get a re-clock chip too. It's much more likely they got a cheap XO and the money they saved on the PCIe bridge chip, was spent on the CS2000, hence the similar pricing. 

 It's just a guess, but based on experience, I'd say the ST is getting to about 10ppm. That's very very good. Off-the-shelf high-end CD transports are comparable. 0.5 x10 = 5, 5 x10 = 50. If you heard a difference between ST and STX, and who wouldn't, then there should be something similar to be heard with a better clock on the ST. I read the datasheet and I don't think the CS2000 can make a bad clock into an excellent one. Better yes, wonderful, well, at the moment, I don't think so. I have a Tent labs XO to compare it to. Anyway, this is the point; to find out. At this stage I think there will be a difference, so I'll try. I think Gwordofspace's STX probably has noticeably lower jitter than the ST. Lucky dude ! 

 I'm really looking at optimising what's there. Hence the first step is the decoupling caps for the op amp and headphone amp circuits. The decoupling and feedback circuit caps closest to the op amps make the most difference, just as rolling op amps makes a big difference. If you've heard the difference between Black Gate FK and ordinary Rubycons then this isn't news to you. FKs might sound too over-detailed/concert hall-ish so that's why I chose Silmic II. Plus FKs are out of production and becoming scarce, so soon they will just be a legend. 

 Man , I can't wait for the parts in the post. Come on Mr Postie !_

 

Its wonderful to see guys like you playing whit the card.
 Please keep posting your work.

 I am specially looking forward to see your caps upgrade.

 Good work!!!


----------



## thoppa

haha...and I'm looking forward to hearing them !

 BTW, the Sanyo Oscons are gonna go too. They are good caps but I don't want them on the power input affecting the whole board. So I have these from another project that'll drop right in (the leads should just be long enough) :






 Panasonic FC - very good decoupling/smoothing caps for audio. Not the best but very good. Just like the Essence really...hehe


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Please tell us! What caps will you upgrade and whit which one? What capacity?


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I have informed me about the caps upgrade.
 Stock caps are very good and when you want to change them the results would be little or maybe worse! 
 Here are the key MKT caps that stand besides the buffer opamp! This
 caps need to be changed because they are not good!
 I will change them whit some MKP caps (1,7nF).
 Has someone a good idea which firm should I take?
 Here is a picture:


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 Sorry for the late reply - work is v busy and I'm trying to upgrade the clock on my ST too.

 You are right about the white caps - they form part of a feedback circuit and are directly affecting the analogue signal. 

 I would replace these with Relcap RTE but you might need to solder them in from the other side. I would be very careful about changing the values - you might seriously affect the negative feedback frequency bandwidth. If you look up the datasheet for the DAC, you'll probably find a suggested I/V circuit. Asus engineers seem to go by the book so it'll probably have been copied exactly, values and all. I think it is a PCM1792 ? If so, check page 35 of the datasheet here :

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1792a.pdf

 In a perfect world, you would change the values in this circuit to match your op amps.

 There are also some smt caps near the op amps in the I/V stage. 






 I am looking into replacing them but at this stage I haven't done any measurements to find out what values etc.

 The other caps worth changing are the 220uF/270uF electrolytic caps - nine of them in all on the board - they are the power supply caps closest to the components.

 Nichicon caps are renowned for being bright and detailed with high-bandwidth - and the card has this sound. Changing the electrolytics can have a surprising effect. It's not that the FG are bad but they have a signature and changing them can help to tune the card to your preferred tastes. I like SilmicII and Philips BC but everyone has their own favourites and finding ones that balance with the rest of the card is the real trick. 

 Have fun !

 Tom

 PS Here is a pic of my ST with a Vanguard clock. Still working on this...


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Very nice! How its sounding??


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Here is a picture how to upgrade the clock crystal on stx!
 1 POINT: unsolder the stock crystal
 2 POINT: solder a wire to point 1(red mark) and connect to output of your new crystal
 3 POINT: solder a wire to point 3(red mark) and connect to ground of the new crystal
 4 POINT: solder DC 12V power supply wires to new crystal
 THATS IT!


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 The Vanguard has gnd, 5V supply, and output so I tried to use the ground and 5V supply on the expansion card pins on my ST as they were the closest to the pins on the Vanguard, but for some unknown reason, this didn't work. I am still looking into why but I must admit I am still not sure. I have checked and double-checked the connections and PCB tracks etc. It SHOULD work, but it doesn't. It may be the Vanguard is not suitable but actually, it should be. Um. 

 I'll keep trying ! I want to get the clock and the power done before anything else because these can have the biggest effect. So when I change caps etc, it will be one of the last things I do - a fine tune almost. 

 Have you finished your card now ?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Strange, if you connected up the GND and the 5V you should be getting a signal on the output. Maybe see if you can get the XO working on a protoboard first as maybe there is something wrong with the XO itself? -If your sure the connections are proper.


----------



## thoppa

Yes, strange indeed.... 

 I've been thinking about this for ages now and just can't figure it out.

 I'll put the old crystal back on and check the card works fine like that - maybe I did some damage at some point...


----------



## ROBSCIX

Where I would start is verifying the XO works as perhaps it was damaged in someway.

 If you have power and the conenctions are all correct and you have no signal output, I would say you need a new XO.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

I have spoken to an expert and you should not kidding whit the crystal signal. If the av100 chip does not get the freq. signal it can be damaged...


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I think you're right Rob - it might just be the XO. I'll take it back and get them to test it.

 Gworld - damage ? how ? The card still 'works' but all sounds are played back at the wrong speed, so I shut down immediately. If I pumped in a voltage I'm sure that would do damage but no crystal signal just means no PLL lock ?

 Cheers


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Ok.


----------



## thoppa

I refitted the original XO - card works fine again. I'll take the card and XO into a local shop where I got the XO and see what they say.


----------



## riderforever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Here is a picture how to upgrade the clock --..._

 

Very nice picture, thank you for sharing


----------



## b0dhi

PPM has nothing at all to do with jitter. PPM measures how close the oscillator's true (long term) frequency is to the specified frequency. Nothing to do with jitter whatsoever. There are very high ppm oscillators with very low jitter and vice versa.


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *b0dhi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_PPM has nothing at all to do with jitter._

 

I've been told the exact opposite by several ppl, one of whom is an EE who is now a director of a PSU design company here in Asia. I've been told the ppm variation in the XOs accuracy is both long term and short term, the latter especially with temperature and voltage fluctuations, and is a major factor in jitter. I also did a lot of background reading about this so I'm quite skeptical about your assertion. Please explain in detail ! I don't care either way as I have no partisan opinions here. But I do like verifiable facts, not short little posts with no real info please. Thanks.

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *b0dhi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ There are very high ppm oscillators with very low jitter and vice versa._

 

This is news to me - I'm very interested ! Got any examples ? Datasheets etc ?

 Thanks,

 Tom


----------



## Pars

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've been told the exact opposite by several ppl, one of whom is an EE who is now a director of a PSU design company here in Asia. I've been told the ppm variation in the XOs accuracy is both long term and short term, the latter especially with temperature and voltage fluctuations, and is a major factor in jitter. I also did a lot of background reading about this so I'm quite skeptical about your assertion. Please explain in detail ! I don't care either way as I have no partisan opinions here. But I do like verifiable facts, not short little posts with no real info please. Thanks.



 This is news to me - I'm very interested ! Got any examples ? Datasheets etc ?

 Thanks,

 Tom_

 

Guido Tent of Tentlabs would beg to differ
XO and VCXO


----------



## b0dhi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This is news to me - I'm very interested ! Got any examples ? Datasheets etc ?_

 

One of many examples: http://www.valpeyfisher.com/openlink...s/XO/VF140.pdf

 Here's another: http://www.valpeyfisher.com/openlink...XO/VFXO321.pdf

 50ppm, yet 0.09ps jitter. 

 There are also different ways of measuring jitter. You need to be careful about whether it's integrated or peak, what the integration band is, RMS, etc. Phase noise in dB at 10Hz is usually a good indicator but most manufacturers don't supply this value.


----------



## thoppa

He says low ppm error in an XO is no guarantee of low jitter, he doesn't say one doesn't affect the other. He also says there is no point in buying a TCXO, yet I have used one of his XOs in an SACD and a TCXO in a DAC and both proved excellent.

 Thanks for the datasheets - interesting. It seems it is a must to check specs eh ?

 Thanks.


----------



## b0dhi

Just ran across this by coincidence: DIYHiFi.org &bull; View topic - PCM2707 - Crystal or Clock

 Follow the thread and it talks more about it.


----------



## thoppa

It's interesting. One guy says some ppl call the ppm measurement a "dc" jitter but he thinks it is just poetry. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I thought I had bookmarked the teaching articles about this but I can't find the link now. Sorry.

 The Vanguard TCXO has 1ppm and -125dB phase noise at 1Khz - low ppm and low jitter.


----------



## thoppa

My TCXO is working ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 My thanks to Gworld ( Marco ? ) - your earth connection is what did it. THANKS ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You're the man !

 I was using an earth from the expansion board pins on the ST and it should have worked but it didn't. I have no idea why. I had tried some different resistors, thinking it must be something to do with the circuit, but no joy. 






 Today, I removed the original crystal again, and this time the solder pad came with it. Oh dear. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The track was still there so I cleaned that and tested if I could get a good connection off it, and I could, so no problem. 

 I connected up my TCXO again this time using the earth on the nearby chip. I actually prayed earnestly too. And......success ! The power of prayer.....over poor soldering.....haha...so thanks to God too. We all need a little divine intervention every now and again.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The board looks a bit of a mess now but I couldn't care less because the sound quality change was obvious. First thing that took me by surprise was the rendition of detailed treble. Then I noticed the soundstage is improved. Then I noticed better bass definition. And that was all within about 30 seconds. It's an obvious change, and to me, quite a large one.

 I certainly think this isn't one of this things that some people might notice and others might not. I honestly think everyone with even half-decent cans will hear this and, for those who haven't heard what low jitter can do, you will be surprised. Really.

 For those of you who have had an STX and then an ST, you heard an improvement yes ? I'd say you'd hear the same improvement again but an order of magnitude higher. Say goodbye to mush. Say hello to much !

 I have to say this is definitely a worthwhile upgrade (if you hadn't already worked that out....) 

 And here are pictures of my awful soldering. It needs tidying...but I don't want to pull the card out to do it because I'm enjoying the sound sooooo much.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Nice to hear that. I am Marko. I told you the crystal upgrade is something major. You immediately notice the sound improvement. The card is sounding a new dimension. 

 I am thinking to open a new thread for discussing the sound quality of essence in comparison to all other DACs out there! I was thinking what would be the next step. This sound card is sounding really good and the question is how much more do I need to spend to have better sound.


----------



## thoppa

Hi Marko,

 Yes, major is exactly right ! I couldn't have done it without your photos so thank you again.

 Did you sort out a power supply ? I got some of my parts today to build one but the high-spec LM317AT are back-ordered so I can't do any more to improve the card at the moment. Do you really think you can get more from this card ? You already have so many changes, maybe only the power is left ? I'll be posting about this on the power supply thread :

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ma...ssence-426049/

 Anyway, of the changes you made, what are your top three (in order...!). I'm sure people will be interested to know what they should upgrade first and how much it costs.


----------



## ROBSCIX

So the module was fine and it was a faulty connection? -I am with you on that point though, usually a ground is a ground is a ground. Weird that it wouldn't be a ground on the pin out.

 Great that you got it working and are enjoying the results. I thought it might not make that much of a difference because of the clean up circuit but I guess I was mistaken as you said you notice immediate sonic gains. After more thought I guess it make sense that the cleaner the clock to begin with the cleaner the signal the clean up chip could produce. Anyway, great stuff. Enjoy.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi Marko,

 Yes, major is exactly right ! I couldn't have done it without your photos so thank you again.

 Did you sort out a power supply ? I got some of my parts today to build one but the high-spec LM317AT are back-ordered so I can't do any more to improve the card at the moment. Do you really think you can get more from this card ? You already have so many changes, maybe only the power is left ? I'll be posting about this on the power supply thread :

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ma...ssence-426049/

 Anyway, of the changes you made, what are your top three (in order...!). I'm sure people will be interested to know what they should upgrade first and how much it costs._

 

The PSU of Kingwa will not work. But I think to buy the board of q11, or two. I will discuss this on other thread.

 I will not count which one is the first to do. You should do them all. The problem becomes how to rate the sound quality.


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_So the module was fine and it was a faulty connection? -I am with you on that point though, usually a ground is a ground is a ground. Weird that it wouldn't be a ground on the pin out.

 Great that you got it working and are enjoying the results. I thought it might not make that much of a difference because of the clean up circuit but I guess I was mistaken as you said you notice immediate sonic gains. After more thought I guess it make sense that the cleaner the clock to begin with the cleaner the signal the clean up chip could produce. Anyway, great stuff. Enjoy._

 

Well, you see from my soldering that it was probably human error right ? And then I must have been checking the circuit wrong. Um. Still, it shows that if I can install an XO, anyone can !

 I did go back to the shop and they looked at me with 'great patience' when I asked them to check the XO. It seems they think these things are very reliable.


----------



## ROBSCIX

I understand totally. It is great that it turned out to be such a good upgrade for you. Makes the time and effort worth it in the end.


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_The PSU of Kingwa will not work. But I think to buy the board of q11, or two. I will discuss this on other thread.

 I will not count which one is the first to do. You should do them all. The problem becomes how to rate the sound quality._

 

Yeah, lots of mods makes it harder to know which one was best right ? I tried replacing the power caps for the TPA6120 with SilmicII and the difference was very slight - easily passed off as imagination by some ppl - just slightly smoother vocal and better definition at the extremes of the frequency range. Changing caps is hard too. I might do the ones on the op amps if I find myself with nothing better to do one day.


----------



## mojave

The two XO's (Audio-GD and Vanguard) changed in this thread are both different. Is there a benefit to using one instead of the other? It looks like the Vanguard is the easiest to install. Would the Tent Labs XO also work for this application?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Any XO would work that is meant for this type of application. The gains come from the newer units being of a higher quality then the unit your replacing.
 The tent labs units should install in a similar fashion to the Vanguard unit Thoppa installed. I have never used the tent labs units so I cannot say anythign about their quality for such a modification.


----------



## thoppa

I hope Marko will describe the other XO. 

 He has an STX card, and I have an ST. The layout is different, plus his card is now external and mine is still internal.

 For the ST, the Vanguard is well-sized and excellent quality. It is 1ppm and about 2ps jitter (-125db at 1khz; the maths I read elsewhere says -118dB is the same as 4ps jitter, so -6db is half that). It's very low-jitter and very stable too. It costs US$25 on Ebay. 

Ultra precision 1ppm 24.576MHz TCXO crystal oscillator on eBay (end time 17-Sep-09 08:49:31 BST)

 I got mine from a local shop. Same price.

V.A. Hi Fi www.VocativeAudio.com The advanced Hi-Fi shop in China-Hong Kong

 I used a 12-pin socket. I removed all but 3 of the pins. These remaining pins I carefully bent (they break easily) so that the XO in the socket sits about 1.5mm above the height of the shield and doesn't interfere with my PCI-e VGA card in the adjacent socket in my PC. (It's an Asus T4 barebone with only one PCI-e socket and one PCI socket, two hard drives, okay PSU, etc. ASUSTeK Computer Inc. ) I needed a short hook up wire and this was one of the tricky things to get right. Removing the original XO can be tricky too. 

 Do you have an ST or STX ?

 A Tent Labs requires a power supply circuit of its own and costs considerably more partly because of this. I have a Tent labs XO in my SACD player :

Pioneer DV-575A, -578A, -585A und -588A Hires SACD and DVD-A digital output DIY-Kit

 It's excellent but tbh the Vanguard is too, plus it's simpler and much better value for money.

 Hope this helps.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

In my essence I have installed the audio-gd JZ-1 crystal whit its own PSU.
 Here is the link:ÐÂ½¨ÍøÒ³ 1
 Its pretty cheap, only 22,5$ and I think its the same design as bursons clock!
 Its a 5ps clock!


----------



## thoppa

I very much doubt anyone can hear the difference between these two XOs. Although Marko's might have a tiny bit more jitter, ( does it ? ) it has its own power so it won't be suffering from voltage fluctuations as much as mine is. Then again, the ST has a CS2000 jitter reduction circuit said to reduce jitter "by 31%" according to Asus. So really, it seems no 'real audible' difference in performance is the most likely conclusion. 

 But he has discrete op-amps....ah....if only I had the space in my PC.....


----------



## ROBSCIX

..I am using some custom built discretes that are much smaller...


----------



## mojave

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_. . . Do you have an ST or STX ? . . ._

 

I will be getting an ST and the multichannel card as soon as they are released in the US. While I'm waiting, I have been ordering opamp samples. It looks fairly easy to change the XO on the ST so I might order one of the Vanguard ones.


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_..I am using some custom built discretes that are much smaller..._

 

ooohhh, sounds good...  but how small ? I assume they wouldn't fit under the shield....but maybe they can be installed from the other side ? I have about 40mm space on the other side of the card...

 Can you post a link or details pls ? Thanks !


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *mojave* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I will be getting an ST and the multichannel card as soon as they are released in the US. While I'm waiting, I have been ordering opamp samples. It looks fairly easy to change the XO on the ST so I might order one of the Vanguard ones._

 

Yeah, I'd say the Vanguard is gonna be the best for the ST, all things considered.

 I bet you're getting a little frustrated with Asus U.S. eh ?


----------



## ROBSCIX

No, not quite that small. I will talk to the other people involved and let you know what I can.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Thoppa!
 I would suggest you to put the discrete opamps to the other side of the board.
 Thats the best solution if you dont have space.


----------



## mojave

It has been a little frustrating waiting so long in the US. I plan to update the motherboard, processor, and memory of my HTPC when Windows 7 is released so I guess I can wait a little longer and do it all at once.

 I purchased the Vanguard TCXO and now I need to find a socket. Where is the best place to find one?


----------



## thoppa

You can get one from Radio Spares, Digi-key, etc, or just ask the vendor to send you one for free. They cost next to nothing.

 I know the feeling of waiting for gear. It can drive you nuts eh ?


----------



## thoppa

Thanks Rob and Marko - mini-discretes please !


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Thanks Rob and Marko - mini-discretes please !_

 

 No problem. I am working on it.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

You could also just bypass the opamps and use an external discrete I/V stage and a buffer stage! What do you think?


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I got mine from a local shop. Same price._

 

BTW, real men bluetack their XO's: Valab Non-oversampling Dac (nos) Review - DTV Forum Australia - Australia's Leading Digital TV and AV Forum

 it's 1ppm too: Valab NOS USB Re-Clock DAC Low Jitter Dual 1ppm TCXO - eBay (item 270446138194 end time Sep-21-09 12:02:44 PDT)


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *GWorlDofSPACE* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You could also just bypass the opamps and use an external discrete I/V stage and a buffer stage! What do you think?_

 

You mean build a passive I/V stage using discrete components and a active buffer?


----------



## b0dhi

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_it's 1ppm too: Valab NOS USB Re-Clock DAC Low Jitter Dual 1ppm TCXO - eBay (item 270446138194 end time Sep-21-09 12:02:44 PDT)_

 

They don't give _any_ jitter specs at all.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_You mean build a passive I/V stage using discrete components and a active buffer?_

 

Yes, but just for try, why not this jisbos buffer instead of the last opamp!






 Here the home page: JISBOS - overview


----------



## ROBSCIX

Cool. I have bee looking at a few schematics of circuits I want to try. I will have alook thx for the link.


----------



## MikeW

The DIR 9001 is supposed to be at 50PS jitter, the CM108 though has been measured, and did not fair well at all. Don't know the number just that they where bad. 

  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *b0dhi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_They don't give any jitter specs at all._


----------



## ROBSCIX

The great thing about this mod on the ST is the further cleaning and stabalizing done by the Cirrus clock chip.


----------



## riderforever

Rob, do you think the CS2000 chip would still make any hearable difference on a clock with a rated jitter of <= 5ps like these?


----------



## leeperry

I think it'd have to be proven that the CS2k chip only improves things...and doesn't make them even more messy


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riderforever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Rob, do you think the CS2000 chip would still make any hearable difference on a clock with a rated jitter of <= 5ps like these?_

 

If it takes a generic clock and cleans it up. It should work rather well with a reasonably accurate clock. 
 If you want to know more about its function check out the spec sheet.
 One way to know for sure, try it out!


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 If I understand the circuit, the CS2000 is cleaning the master clock from the AV100 (CMI8787/8788) ? That chip's datasheet says it has 750ps ! I sincerely hope it doesn't actually produce that much jitter. That's horrific. Anyway, I'd say the CS2000 is definitely still worth having even with a low jitter XO, because the XO is only one source of jitter in the system.

 My ST sounds pretty sweet and detailed and is starting to exploit the ability of the HD650.

 Tom


----------



## ROBSCIX

Thoppa, you said you heard a audible difference so it show that the clock helps with higher precision XO.
 I have been thinking of doing a clock mod for ahiwle but haven't got aorund to it. Maybe I will soon.


----------



## riderforever

@192 khz you get 1 sample every 5208333 ps. A jitter of 750 ps means the error of the clock is below 0,02%, while a jitter of 5 ps takes it down to 0,0001%. I didn't think there could be any audible difference between these two values.


----------



## thoppa

Try it - I'm sure 99% of listeners will hear the improved details if nothing else. And probably a lot more ! The only way to go from skeptic to cognoscenti is to hear it !


----------



## leeperry

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_That chip's datasheet says it has 750ps ! I sincerely hope it doesn't actually produce that much jitter._

 

nice find Tom! got a screenshot? what page of the datasheet?

 well, yeah, this DSP chip sure sounds HELL messy to me...and the conditioner only adds even more mess on top of it *to my ears*...cheap consumer grade components at work 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was looking into the jitter specs of the Prodigy HD2 chip, but I can't find a datasheet for the VIA Envy24HT-S...I'll keep looking!

 I also don't understand why it's got both a crystal(same as found on graphic cards) and also a XO: 






 one for 48Hz multiples, one for 44.1?

 I know the Audiophile PCI has 2 crystals : http://www.m-audio.com/images/global...ophile2496.jpg

 and the Audiophile USB(released 2 years earlier), only one: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/m-...rested-208391/

 ...and it's supposed to resample everything to 96KHz(their techsupport says the opposite)...but some ppl say that you can get both 44.1 and 48 from ONE crystal


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Try it - I'm sure 99% of listeners will hear the improved details if nothing else. And probably a lot more ! The only way to go from skeptic to cognoscenti is to hear it !_

 

Sure. There are far too many people that make opinions based on what they have read instead of what they have actually heard.
 You have me curious now, I was going to do a clock mod on another card but maybe I will do the clock mod on the ST instead to see ho it turns out. Maybe I will just order a bunch of them and mod out a few cards if the first one give audible gains which it should.


----------



## riderforever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,

 If I understand the circuit, the CS2000 is cleaning the master clock from the AV100 (CMI8787/8788) ? That chip's datasheet says it has 750ps !_

 

I've tried to measure it on my STX, using the method explained here.

 You play a signal that is a 11025 Hz sinewave at -3 dBFS added to a square wave at 229 Hz at -90.3 dBFS. When you examine the signal around the 11025 Hz peak, the peaks at 11025-n*229 Hz and 11025+n*229 Hz result from data-induced jitter.

 List of approximate jitter values:
 -100 dB = ~500 ps
 -110 dB = ~180 ps
 -120 dB = ~60 ps
 -130 dB = ~20 ps

 According to this the jitter of the STX seems to be around 210-220 ps (-108 dB)


----------



## leeperry

care to share the audio file, and possibly the exact method you used? if you were to make a tutorial thread, we'd have many figures from many different equipments to look at


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Sure. There are far too many people that make opinions based on what they have read instead of what they have actually heard.
 You have me curious now, I was going to do a clock mod on another card but maybe I will do the clock mod on the ST instead to see ho it turns out. Maybe I will just order a bunch of them and mod out a few cards if the first one give audible gains which it should._

 

Get to it - you'll be pleased for sure !

 PS Ever read Moby Dick ? The ship's carpenter - 'evinced by the foolish pride of reason'.


----------



## thoppa

200 seems much more reasonable. Reduce that by 31% for the ST (according to Asus) gives 140. The change was noticeable ( I owned both cards ) but the 2ps XO was more noticeable - conservatively say 60 % - so I'm guessing a modded ST will be around 60ps or less jitter. 

 Now you just need to stop doing the maths and get the XO changed so you can appreciate for yourself what a difference it makes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riderforever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_I've tried to measure it on my STX, using the method explained here.

 You play a signal that is a 11025 Hz sinewave at -3 dBFS added to a square wave at 229 Hz at -90.3 dBFS. When you examine the signal around the 11025 Hz peak, the peaks at 11025-n*229 Hz and 11025+n*229 Hz result from data-induced jitter.

 List of approximate jitter values:
 -100 dB = ~500 ps
 -110 dB = ~180 ps
 -120 dB = ~60 ps
 -130 dB = ~20 ps

 According to this the jitter of the STX seems to be around 210-220 ps (-108 dB)




_


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Get to it - you'll be pleased for sure !

 PS Ever read Moby Dick ? The ship's carpenter - 'evinced by the foolish pride of reason'._

 

Meaning?


----------



## riderforever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Now you just need to stop doing the maths and get the XO changed so you can appreciate for yourself what a difference it makes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Forgot to say I've ordered the Audio-gd clock last week, I'm just waiting for it to be delivered


----------



## thoppa

It means we shouldn't be so foolish as think something is true just because it makes sense or is logical to us. 

 I'm not saying that it isn't possible to work out what an XO change can do, but only experience can really say what benefit it is to the music. Of the changes I've made, is the clear winner - low cost (just US$30 in total) with the biggest return.

 So I'm just trying to encourage people to stop talking theory and do it !


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *riderforever* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_LOL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Forgot to say I've ordered the Audio-gd clock last week, I'm just waiting for it to be delivered 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

YES ! You will be plsd for sure ! And maybe you can post before and after results ? That'd be very interesting !


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_It means we shouldn't be so foolish as think something is true just because it makes sense or is logical to us. 

 I'm not saying that it isn't possible to work out what an XO change can do, but only experience can really say what benefit it is to the music. Of the changes I've made, is the clear winner - low cost (just US$30 in total) with the biggest return.

 So I'm just trying to encourage people to stop talking theory and do it !_

 

Yes but some like to analyze to the best of their ability what this or any upgrade might give them. Just the nature of this place.


----------



## thoppa

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Yes but some like to analyze to the best of their ability what this or any upgrade might give them. Just the nature of this place.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Oh yeah, lots of armchair travellers here  

 I like to theorise but only if I actually get to do it. I'm currently thinking of using a Charlize class-T amp as a headphone amp - I need to make some independant left and right cables because it is a bridge-tied-load amp and I'll probably need to mod the output filters but I reckon that amp will suit HD650s very well. It's smooth with lots of grunt and a laid back top end. We'll see....


----------



## riderforever

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *leeperry* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_care to share the audio file, and possibly the exact method you used? if you were to make a tutorial thread, we'd have many figures from many different equipments to look at 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


_

 

Enjoy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/ji...rement-446451/


----------



## awesom-o

This seems interesting! I think i want to try the audio-gd clock on my STX myself. 

 But the one they have on their page has wrong frequencies? 
 Will I just have to mail them and ask for one with 24.576 mhz?


----------



## ROBSCIX

With some clock "modules" there are setting on the module itself to change the frequency. IIRC, this is the case witht he Audio-GD module.


----------



## dwk

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *awesom-o* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_This seems interesting! I think i want to try the audio-gd clock on my STX myself. 

 But the one they have on their page has wrong frequencies? 
 Will I just have to mail them and ask for one with 24.576 mhz?_

 

Yes, just email them. I got 2 modules from them that way (fast shipping, too)

  Quote:


 With some clock "modules" there are setting on the module itself to change the frequency. IIRC, this is the case witht he Audio-GD module 
 

No good high-quality clock will have a variable frequency. The multiple outputs you saw on the Audio-GD module are various fractions of the base rate achieved through dividers. I belive they have F/2 F/3 and F/4 outputs, but I'd have to check again.


----------



## awesom-o

ordered clock today, and also 2x opa-earth 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 This will be fun.


----------



## Salvador

Anyone else try this mod? I am doing the mod and have a question.

 I ordered the same JZ-1 clock that GworldSpace used. I am wondering whether you can connect the 12v power supply and ground from the JZ-1 clock to the molex power connector of the STX?


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *awesom-o* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_ordered clock today, and also 2x opa-earth 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 This will be fun._

 

The OPA-Earths make great I/V converters. You can use ANY Audio-GD unit for buffer but only the Earth and the Sun V2 for I/V.
 The Moon's are not stable for the I/V position and will produce heavy distortion from oscilltion.
 There are a few memebers running these cards with discrete opamps.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *Salvador* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Anyone else try this mod? I am doing the mod and have a question.

 I ordered the same JZ-1 clock that GworldSpace used. I am wondering whether you can connect the 12v power supply and ground from the JZ-1 clock to the molex power connector of the STX?_

 

Great stuff! Your going to give it a go?
 Yes, you should be able to tap the power supply at that point.


----------



## Salvador

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *ROBSCIX* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Great stuff! Your going to give it a go?
 Yes, you should be able to tap the power supply at that point._

 

It is already done actually. So power was tapped from the 12v of the molex connector of the STX.

 I did not do the mod myself so I will be able to try it out tomorrow night. Hopefully nothing went wrong and everything is ok.

 I will update you guys once I get it.

 I also grabbed some OPA Earth and Sun so I can test those too once I get the card back.


----------



## ROBSCIX

The Earth is great for I/V and the Sun V2 is good for buffer but tastes vary.
 Let me know how it sounds.


----------



## thoppa

You're gonna love the improvement ! 

 I've found LM4562 to be a good standard op amp to judge changes with both in the I/V and the buffer and as a good relative measure against different op amp set ups.

 Well worth changing are these caps - see below - they imit the quality the I/V section can reproduce because they are in a negative feedback loop that limits the bandwidth through the I/V section. I think the DAC on this card might have a brickwall output filter because the sound can be quite aggressive at the very top end and apparently this might be due to pre-ringing caused by the DAC's filter. Changing the caps can help bring sweetness to the very high treble of cymbals and snares etc. 

 If you're using the RCA output then it's also worth changing the output coupling caps (in the left of the second picture). I've got Blackgate NX (bipolar) for these and they are much more revealing and transparent. 











 Cheers


----------



## ROBSCIX

That top picture is nice, the photographer has real talent


----------



## thoppa




----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Its been a long time ago I posted in this thread. But it seams that things are going in right direction. THOPPA is made great progress in tweaking the STX. I will maybe also try the caps mode. Go on guys! )


----------



## taisho_daniel

Alloa everyone

 First of all, I'd like to thank the various people in this thread for providing info on this mod for the xonar essence. Reading this has inspired me to perform the same mod on my own card.

 However, something seems to have gone horribly wrong, and I'd like to ask for help on how to fix things.

 Basically, everything coming out of the card sounds like it is being dragged down by molasses! It's as if I applied movie special effects on it and have everything in slow motion.

 Ok, here are the things I mucked around with:
 1. Removed the coupling capacitors for analog output and replaced them with wire. (As recommended by germanium in another xonar essence post)
 2. Replaced the 2 oscons in the power supply section with 1000uF Sanyo WGs.
 3. Replaced the default crystal with a Vanguard 24.576MHz TCXO. Similar to what thoppa did, I connected the ground pin to the ground pin of a nearby IC, and connected crystal's Vdd to the pin adjacent to J15.


 I'm not sure if the problem is because I replaced the oscons with a cap with higher uF (270 -> 1000), or if there's a problem with the particular XO unit I have. Part of the prob is that I don't have soldering skills to speak of (I relied on a repair tech for the mod), so I can't just swap things back, or listen to the results right away. If you guys can give me an idea on where to start, it'd be REALLY appreciated.

 Cheers


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 Your first post eh ? Welcome !

 I had the exact same problem - your xo isn't clocking the signal correctly. 

 It could be you've connected it wrong, or it is faulty.

 For me, it wasn't connected because I didn't solder it well enough. I initially thought I'd used a wrong earth so I changed the earth connection and it worked. 

 However, when having a look at the earth on a scope for noise, I realised that I had used a correct earth but just didn't flow the solder well enough. 

 So try again. I'm sure you'll be able to fix it if I did !

 BTW, have you measured the output DC offset on the output without the coupling caps ? I imagine it's quite high (2 volts dc or more ?) but I assume that you are feeding the signal into gear that has input coupling caps ?

 My card is finished. I'd say the XO made the biggest difference, replacing the ceramic feedback caps and using a linear PSU were tied for second. Replacing the output coupling caps comes a close third. Replacing the decoupling power caps came last. After all the changes, I rolled my fave op amps for a week or two and I settled on LME49720HA in the I/V and AD8620BR in the buffer.


----------



## germanium

D.C. offset should in fact be very low, 2millivolts or lower. This card has the lowest D.C. offset I've ever seen when D.C. coupled so that shouln't be a problem unless one of the I/V amp channels is faulty. I always measure D.C. offset before connecting to anything whenever I make a change. In the case of a faulty I/V amp yes you could see close to 2.5 volts if one of the 2 I/V amp channels is dead. 2 I/V amp channels for each output channel (left or right output). If one is dead then D.C. offset will not be cancelled in the buffer amp. When the I/V amps work correctly the D.C. offset is cancelled in the buffer amp because it goes into both the +input & - input of the buffer amp.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 Thanks for posting this. I wondered if the op amps were biased at all but obviously they are not if there is virtually no dc offset. 

 I have never bothered to measure - I'm not using any coupling caps in my head amp (and that has 8mV unconnected), so if I took out the coupling caps in the ST and something went wrong, I'd fry my cans. A pop, then a rattle, ...then wailing...hehe. Of course, not much chance of something going wrong now it's finished, but still....


----------



## germanium

It is definately most important to check the D.C. offset whenever you change anything as it will tell you if something is wrong even if you leave the caps in you can measure it at the input of the caps. I have never had a failure however that resulted in huge D.C. offset at the output.

 That 8 millivolt is that at the output or input side of the head amp? If on the input side D.C. coupling the Essenses output would reduce that to less than 2 millivolts which would reduce the D.C. offset at the output as well of the head amp. if it is measured at the output of the headamp & it is a D.C. amp then the D.C. will go up or down by whatever the gain is of the amp. If the gain is less than 4X voltage gain then the D.C offset will go down & if greater than 4X it will go up by what ever factor the gain is abover 4X in your situation. Others will be different of coarse. if it is an A.C amp (no D.C. amplification capability) then the D.C. offset on the output of the amp will go down if connected to the Essense without the caps in place.


----------



## taisho_daniel

Thanks for the welcome and the replies folks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyway, I had a moment to think about things, and then I realized I made an embarassingly stupid mistake. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I had used thoppa's pictures as my sort of guide book on how to plug in the Vanguard. Instead of using a socket tho, what I did was flip the chip over (pins up in the air) and hot glued it into place. My original idea was just to use blue tack, tho the repair guy assured me the hot glue was safe.

 Anyway, I had the chip flipped over, but I attached the wires as if I hadn't. No wonder things went wrong. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I just had to resolder the wires, reinstall the essence st drivers, and now everything's back to normal. 

 Well, sorta. On the sample tracks I've played, I notice this odd sort of ringing like effect during relatively loud passages involving the upper frequencies. Weird.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 That could be the xo physically vibrating ? How much and how and where did you use the hot glue ? Photo pls ? Actually, I have to say, it doesn't seem like a good idea. The hot glue has quite a lot of energy in it that it dissipates as it goes hard. The Vanguard is TXCO = temperature controlled XO. It's a precision bit of kit. Personally, I used a socket so I could avoid applying any heat to the xo in any way. 

 I also wonder if the ringing might be something to do with the cap changes.


----------



## taisho_daniel

Yeah, on hindsight I should've kept a closer look at what the tech was doing and stopped him from using the hot glue. Oh well, no use in crying about spilled milk. ^^


 So far, I think I can rule out the caps in the power section and the XO upgrade as the cause of my problems. I switched to optical output, passing the signals to my pre/pro and everything sounds great. It seems that the problem is somewhere in my analog output stage. Still have to find out if its the coupling cap removal or one of my opamp-on-adaptor things that's causing it.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 Great - so it isn't the xo either then ! 

 Then it might be oscillation, which would be the op amps and their 'load'.

 Anyway, it's good you got the xo working !


----------



## taisho_daniel

Yeah, it's great to have the XO working. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Unfortunately I wasn't able to make a direct comparison before, but I think the XO upgrade made a difference in the digital out too. Like you said, one of the more cost effective upgrades for the ST.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Thoppa I am very interested in your caps tweaks review. Would you please tell us what you discovered?


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I replaced the ceramic caps - 2n2 I think - with 3n3 polyprop = Vishay MKP1837. This cut the bandwidth down (90Khz to 60Khz -3db, which is a drop of 0.2db at 20Khz and a drop of 2.5dB at 120Khz from standard) but I didn't hear any loss of treble or detail.

 Before this, I hadn't enjoyed the LME49720HA - they sounded too harsh and hissy. After the cap swap, the aggressiveness was gone and the treble sounded more natural. I tried various op amps again and found the LME now sounded the best. 

 The change is subtle but it definitely gives a smoother and a more refined presentation of detail. A little sweeter and a little clearer too. But only a little ! 

 It doesn't take long or cost much to do, so I definitely recommend it.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,

 I replaced the ceramic caps - 2n2 I think - with 3n3 polyprop = Vishay MKP1837. This cut the bandwidth down but I didn't hear any loss of treble or detail.

 Before this, I hadn't enjoyed the LME49720HA - they sounded too harsh and hissy. After the cap swap, the aggressiveness was gone and the treble sounded more natural. I tried various op amps again and found the LME now sounded the best. 

 The change is subtle but it definitely gives a smoother and a more refined presentation of detail. A little sweeter and a little clearer too. But only a little ! 

 It doesn't take long or cost much to do, so I definitely recommend it._

 

Did you also changed the output caps or try them to bypass?


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 Yes, I changed the coupling caps to Blackgate N 33uF - this is more than enough for line level use to avoid phase changes etc, but would cause a bass roll-off if I used the RCA out to drive headphones. Actually, if I wasn't using the RCA out to drive a coupling-cap-free head amp, I'd just remove them completely as per Germanium's post and of course check the DC offset. Anything up to about 20mv is fine if going direct into cans, perhaps even as much as 50-100mV for some cans. Most gear has input coupling caps too....


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,

 Yes, I changed the coupling caps to Blackgate N 33uF - this is more than enough for line level use to avoid phase changes etc, but would cause a bass roll-off if I used the RCA out to drive headphones. Actually, if I wasn't using the RCA out to drive a coupling-cap-free head amp, I'd just remove them completely as per Germanium's post and of course check the DC offset. Anything up to about 20mv is fine if going direct into cans, perhaps even as much as 50-100mV for some cans. Most gear has input coupling caps too...._

 

If you have an external amp, then a small mkp would also do great job here.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I tried this already - a 10nF MKP1837 first and a Mundorf 100nF second - but both gave noise not an improvement in sound. I have no idea why but I guess they picked up rf or emi or something....or maybe they just won't solder on well..... I also tried the Mundorfs in reverse just in case they had a shield. 

 The Blackgate N are pretty good so I don't mind. It's a real shame Rubycon have stopped producing Blackgates.


----------



## GWorlDofSPACE

Quote:


  Originally Posted by *thoppa* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
_Hi,

 I tried this already - a 10nF MKP1837 first and a Mundorf 100nF second - but both gave noise not an improvement in sound. I have no idea why but I guess they picked up rf or emi or something....or maybe they just won't solder on well..... I also tried the Mundorfs in reverse just in case they had a shield. 

 The Blackgate N are pretty good so I don't mind. It's a real shame Rubycon have stopped producing Blackgates._

 


 yea blackgates! There is always a question of costs and interests.


----------



## thoppa

Hi,

 I'm now thinking of using this card in a mini-itx music player so I can then fit audio-gd hdam. Have you tried these ? I reckon the Earth look the best choice but I wonder if 2x Earth in I/V and 1x Moon in the buffer would be better....I can't justify the price of the Bursons tbh.

 I'm also thinking about upgrading the PSU to sigma11 and fit a 7912 on U34 on the board.

 So maybe the card isn't finished after all.


----------



## ROBSCIX

There are a few guys around that have been using those HDAM's on the STX/ST.
 They are nice, I tested them out on a few different sources a long while back.
 The Earths make great I/V's. Personally I would choose another for the buffer but tastes vary.


----------



## forDSD

Hi everyone!

 With great interest read this topic! I want to install on Xonar ST quality oscillator. In this model, the oscillator has a contact E/D. He managed with code... In our case - it is not necessary, of course! 
 This raises the question - what to do with the contact E/D? Just leave not connected? Please, help me understand, I will be very grateful!
 The model of the oscillator - FXO-HC736R-24.576 http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/75456.pdf


----------



## KingFiercer

Hello. Have anybody recommendations for choosing an oscillator?
  I'm going to order at mouser.сom all necessary details for tweaking
   
  Is this XO ok? http://ru.farnell.com/fox/fxo-hc736r-24-576/osc-5x7mm-smd-cer-24-576mhz/dp/1641004?Ntt=FXO-HC736R-24.576


----------



## Joytoy

KingFiercer, this is mine, but is under construction.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




   
   
  Hi everybody
  Someone has experience with slowed sounds on STX ?
  I change the 24.576MHz TCXO crystal oscillator on my STX, but all the sounds are slowed by 30%
  What does it mean ?
  I need help
   

  Joy!


----------



## catx

I've just upgraded my ST with the 0.3ppm Vanguard you can find on ebay
   



   



   
  Sound improvement is definitely huge!


----------



## avo7007

Very nice! How did you mount the TCXO on the card?


----------



## catx

I removed the original xo by using two irons simultaneously on the two pads (I would not try this using just one iron as you would end up overheating and possibly damaging the board), then I insulated the area with tape and soldered the new xo as pictured below.
  Extending the gnd pin is not needed, as it would be long enough by bending it in the right direction.


----------



## avo7007

Very nice photos. Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## AsuAmo76

Catx: your pictures made installation very easy, thanks.
   
  Not sure if someone already advised to use small tweezers to hold the leg near the body while soldering.


----------



## catx

I'm glad they helped you installing your new xo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  What do you think of the performance? Did you use the same tcxo?


----------



## AsuAmo76

Yes, I'm using exactly the same golden crystal; the performance improvement (clarity) on my ST was rather minor, but still noticeable.  It's difficult to compare  without rolling back to the old xo.


----------



## kinonotabi

Hi All 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...
   
  I want to modify my STX X0 with Vanguard TCXO 24.576MHz 0.3ppm (like catx's X0 above)
  But I am not a capable electronical person so I want ask few questions before, I hope somebody can answer them ...
   



   
After remove original X0 then :
  1. Joint GND TCXO to point 1
  2. Joint Output TCXO to point 2
  3. Joint VDD TCXO to point 3
  Are these correct steps? I see catx use VDD input at point 3 on his ST that I assume it provide TCXO with +5VDC
   
  Thanks in advance


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





catx said:


> I'm glad they helped you installing your new xo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 Great pictures and mod.  Nice clean job.  I ahev been considering this mod myself but haven't got around to it yet.
  Have you considered removing the coupling capacitors on the outputs.  This would also improve the sound further but is mainly for line output.


----------



## catx

Quote: 





kinonotabi said:


> Hi All
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Correct, you can follow the instrunctions on message #95 but make sure you connect vdd input to a +5V source (for example output pin on the 7805)

  
  Quote: 





robscix said:


> Great pictures and mod.  Nice clean job.  I ahev been considering this mod myself but haven't got around to it yet.  Have you considered removing the coupling capacitors on the outputs.  This would also improve the sound further but is mainly for line output.


 

  
  Well, I listen to my hd 555 connected to the headphones amp output 99% of the time, otherwise I would surely give the coupling caps bypass mod a try.
  At the moment I'm trying to find a good replacement for the original I/Vs, now I'm using some LT1028 on mono to dual converters but I don't like them, they are absolutely more neutral/natural than stock 2114Ds but they lack in soundstage and bass detail.
  I'll give them some time to burn-in but I doubt it will make any noticeable difference.


----------



## alenzo

Hello,
  I bought a Vanguard TCXO 24.576MHz 0.3ppm for replacing an  orig. in my essence ST . I have changed it according to your advice. But I´m disappointed. The sound is worse then before. It is easy to compare. A resolution of instruments is lower, and Bass is not so deep like before. The Soundstage is narrow. I had to return the orginal back. It is weird. Can you advice what I should do. Maybe the crystal is fake. But hong kong  shop has good reference.


----------



## walsh

Quote: 





gworldofspace said:


> Here is a picture how to upgrade the clock crystal on stx!
> 1 POINT: unsolder the stock crystal
> 2 POINT: solder a wire to point 1(red mark) and connect to output of your new crystal
> 3 POINT: solder a wire to point 3(red mark) and connect to ground of the new crystal
> ...


 
   
  I'm trying to do this upgrade and I don't understand step 4 - what do you mean solder the 12V power supply to the new crystal? You mean that 4-pin connector you plug into the back of the STX?


----------



## Gradius

Just found this topic, great one btw.
   
  About that +12V for clock/cristal, you cannot do that with Vanguard is rated +5V only!
   
  I'll check my STX tomorrow to see where to get those +5V nearby, but the easy (and dirty) solution is still from Molex.


----------



## Gradius

I took a look on my STX, there is two power regulators (one for 12V and one for 5V):
   
  5V@1A is a AZ7805D (TO-252) marked as U20:
  http://www.bcdsemi.com/ASP/productpic/2004981742391148.pdf
   
  12V is a 7812 (TO-252) marked as U24.
   
  X1: 24.576MHz @ 5V (so called crystal or TCXO).
   
  I'm planning to change OPAs too.
   
  1st option LME49720HA+OPA2111SM.
  2nd option 2xOPA-Earth + 1xOPA-Sun
   
  And of course the crystal.
   
  Last mod would be the capacitors to Premium type (better than Fine Gold).
   
  About the OPAs, what's better?  1st option or 2nd one?


----------



## Gradius

Update: Brought Bursons and did wonders!
   
  I used AZ7805D (U20) for +5V and GND as well.


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





catx said:


> I've just upgraded my ST with the 0.3ppm Vanguard you can find on ebay
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


  Hi catx, please can you tell me in which way the sound is better? I'm thinking on getting one of this cards... so your impressions would be great


----------



## germanium

Quote: 





thoppa said:


> BTW, have you measured the output DC offset on the output without the coupling caps ? I imagine it's quite high (2 volts dc or more ?) but I assume that you are feeding the signal into gear that has input coupling caps ?
> 
> My card is finished. I'd say the XO made the biggest difference, replacing the ceramic feedback caps and using a linear PSU were tied for second. Replacing the output coupling caps comes a close third. Replacing the decoupling power caps came last. After all the changes, I rolled my fave op amps for a week or two and I settled on LME49720HA in the I/V and AD8620BR in the buffer.


 


 Actually all my amps are D.C. coupled & are capable of amplifying D.C.. I found that by direct coupling the line out of the Essense STX card you can actually reduce the D.C. offset of any direct coupled or D.C. coupled amp from the output of practically any such amp following it.


----------



## screenmusic

Hi, is this the vanguard clock you recommend for an asus xonnat st?
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vanguard-Ultra-precision-Golden-TCXO-0-3ppm-24-576MHz-/120763673234?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item1c1e136a92#ht_2171wt_1163


----------



## GaToMaLaCo

Quote: 





screenmusic said:


> Hi, is this the vanguard clock you recommend for an asus xonnat st?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vanguard-Ultra-precision-Golden-TCXO-0-3ppm-24-576MHz-/120763673234?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item1c1e136a92#ht_2171wt_1163


 


  Yes!


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## Theodore

Has any other guy changed the crystal,so as to tell us what the quality upgrade is?I have a ST card,having changed the opamps only.


----------



## ROBSCIX

Quote: 





theodore said:


> Has any other guy changed the crystal,so as to tell us what the quality upgrade is?I have a ST card,having changed the opamps only.


 


 You already have better timing with the ST as it has a secondary chip that cleans the XO signals further.
   
  This chip is only found on the ST.


----------



## evrycard

I am ready to change the crystal on my essence ST but I have this question.
 What is the difference between:
*Vanguard Ultra precision Golden TCXO, 0.3ppm 24.576MHz* *and Vanguard Ultra precision TCXO 1ppm 24.576MHz.*       * (both found on ebay)*
  And which is better.


----------



## verde57

If im doing this upgrade on my ST, what is the effect ill be hearing on my music?


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## job31

Better sound of course...
   
   
  BTW, Thanks the guyz who posted before, nice explaination.


----------



## DYNAMOS

Quote: 





theodore said:


> Has any other guy changed the crystal,so as to tell us what the quality upgrade is?I have a ST card,having changed the opamps only.


 


  The best way to keep constant the frequency is to maintain the temperature at 25 degrees Celsius and filter feeding by intermodulation. After the above we can change and the local oscillator.Then, perhaps! you can hear the difference. 
   
  ---The best way it's the only way--- !!!


----------



## Nemeske88

Nice thread!


----------



## Nemeske88

Hi everyone!
   
  I am about to upgrade my STX situated in a GZ-M1 box from Gigabyte
  The space left from the sidecover to the cards is 37 mm , and from card top to my video card is 28 mm
  Is there any chance to build in a burson discrete set, or change to ST, place the card to an upper pci socket?
  (The card above the stx is an XTREME MUSIC with PCI slot)
   
  Thanks!


----------



## MrPorcelain

First post... and reviving an old thread. I bought one of those vanguard clocks and I'm going to try this mod.


----------



## Theodore

keep us informed please.
  Theodore.


----------



## MrPorcelain

So far I've removed the original clock which was pretty difficult with a single soldering iron and I'd say I've probably fried the original clock. Going to mount the vanguard clock tonight.


----------



## MrPorcelain

Got it installed. What a difference! The music flows beautifully now, it's like a layer of hash was removed. There's a new level of resolution, cymbals shimmer more and bass is more natural but overall the sound signature is sweeter and more lush. A very worthwhile upgrade. I'm going to do my other STX now!


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## Nemeske88

Can you post some photos? Wich crystal did you use?


----------



## MrPorcelain

I used the vanguard 0.3ppm TCXO. I went with the previous suggestion and used the 7805 as the vdd and ground. 

 I have another STX that I'm going to upgrade. I'll post pics of that one when I do it. This one isn't pretty, there isn't much room to mount neatly on the STX.


----------



## RubberBootz

Quote: 





mrporcelain said:


> I used the vanguard 0.3ppm TCXO. I went with the previous suggestion and used the 7805 as the vdd and ground.
> 
> I have another STX that I'm going to upgrade. I'll post pics of that one when I do it. This one isn't pretty, there isn't much room to mount neatly on the STX.


 

 Pictures, please! Mine's on the way and as so far I've not been able to get my head around others instructions or photos!


----------



## vodkex

Hi there guys. I'm asking about this here since it's the main thread about these ultra precision 0.3ppm TCXOs... sorry if it's meant to go somewhere else.
   
   
   
  I couldn't afford an essence STX, too expensive. But I could get my hands on a xonar DX and its sound is quite out of this world for me! Anyway, I've upgraded the front line-out opamp to an OPA1612 with excellent results (as I had already done on my old x-fi xtrememusic), and now I'd like to upgrade the crystal. I think it can be done since both cards use a 24.576 mhz crystal and they look quite alike: the crystal on the stx says "24.576 IT475" while the one on the DX says "24.576 IT869z". They even have the same shape and the same solder points!

Someone here did the same mod on an x-fi xtrememusic which also uses a 24.576 mhz crystal, and it's a completely different card... I believe it can be done on the DX. What do you think?


----------



## recepky

@MrPorcelain can you explain _*in detail*_ how to do this mod to STX card? with pictures please 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I also looked at the previous posts but I didnt understand anything because someone upgraded thier ST card, other one upgraded STX card, someone used kingwa audio gd clock, other one used Vanguard clock on his ST etc. 
   
  I am listenin stock stx card right now that I installed 4 days before. When compared to onboard VIA 108dB sound chip and FiiO e10 usb dac, difference was enormous! (I am using mid-fi speaker system with a technics amp, not headphones, I only have koss portapro as my favorite headphones)


----------



## alphaman

If you're using the Vanguard or similar oscillator -- and not a purpose-built clock like Audio-gd, or TentLabs, etc -- the following "tips" should help to further clean the output signal ....
*[Note: I do not have one of these soundcards nor do I have access to schematic. The components in the tips below may already be incorporated into stock design. Let me know...] *
  (1) Use a ferrite on the (+) pwr  input -- i.e., replace that red wire in the pics with one or more of these...
   

   
  (2) Input pwr (+) to ground, use a high-quality 100nF (aka 0.1uF) cap.
   
  (3) Osc. out to ground: use a polystyrene film cap = approx. 10-20pF. These are a bit hard to find (popular with old radio hobbyists), but are highly sought after in the audiophile community. [Newark/Farnell apparently has them for $1.94/ea.] They look like this:

  Note that this "tip" is from the schematic on the eBay sale page for the Vanguard osc.:

  There may already be a 10-20pF SMD cap. in the stock PCB. But, usually, they are of much lower quality than the above polystyrene type. 
   
  (4) On osc. out, solder in a metal-film resistor = approx. 47 ohm.
   
_Refs:_
   
  Some ideas above were gleaned from TentLabs (a DIY clock):

  Another option is the excellent DIY Flea clock project by Martin Clark.


----------



## alphaman

I may have missed this in this thread, but did those of you replacing the stock *crystal* with either the Vanguard *oscillator* or an after-market *clock* (Audio-gd, etc.) remove the two stock SMD caps (in the pic. below, you can see them _below_ the stock X1 crystal, on either side of the SMD resistor--the caps are _white_)?
   
  In almost every aftermarket tutorial I've seen, those caps are removed. _Reason_: the orig. (stock) is a *crystal* that needs external bypassing/filtering; whilst  aftermarket is an *oscillator* (Vanguard) or *clock*  (Burson, Audio-gd, TentLabs, etc.), and these have their own "built-in" caps. 
  Quote: 





gworldofspace said:


> Here is a picture how to upgrade the clock crystal on stx!
> 1 POINT: unsolder the stock crystal
> 2 POINT: solder a wire to point 1(red mark) and connect to output of your new crystal
> 3 POINT: solder a wire to point 3(red mark) and connect to ground of the new crystal
> ...


----------



## joyman

Quote: 





> I couldn't afford an essence STX, too expensive. But I could get my hands on a xonar DX and its sound is quite out of this world for me! Anyway, I've upgraded the front line-out opamp to an OPA1612 with excellent results (as I had already done on my old x-fi xtrememusic), and now I'd like to upgrade the crystal. I think it can be done since both cards use a 24.576 mhz crystal and they look quite alike: the crystal on the stx says "24.576 IT475" while the one on the DX says "24.576 IT869z". They even have the same shape and the same solder points!


 
   
  Hello every one,i got an asus xonar dx too,can crystal can be changed?
  thanks.


----------



## recepky

hi everybody
  
 I upgraded with the audio gd JZ-1 clock TCXO version
  
 I am neither an electrical engineer nor technician so it took 1-2 hour to complete desoldering and solderin process.
  
 Result is definitely tremendous, at first I was a lil bit dissappointed because I didnt realize I was playing an mp3 file, then I switch to my FLAC archive. difference is like day and night compared to old crystal. 3D improvement of the soundstage is very succesful I played Infected Mushrrom - "Blink", "Drop out" and "Avratz" from "converting vegeterians" album bass texture is also beatiful.
  
 I also listen onboard sound card while trying the desolder old crystal on the STX, I noticed again how bad the onboard audio


----------



## Gradius

Just to let you know the 0.3ppm is a HUGE lie.
  
 Perhaps just for few seconds, but no way it will be trully 0.3ppm.
  
 FYI real 100ppm costs over $40.
  
 The price can go easily to over $100~$200, or even more.


----------



## EdibleStereos

Anybody have the spec sheet for the stock crystal?

 I'm looking to keep something that fits the stock board. I think all of these clocks being run with such long runs of wire would introduce more problems then they would solve. As PCB's are designed to optimize layout, and having a few cm of wires run all over likely destroys any design plans for the pcb.

 I'm looking just for a tighter tolerances easy swapped piece.


----------



## recepky

using the discrete master clock a few cm away from stock crystal is not a new thing, old cd players can also be upgraded with new master clock and there are lots of examples of them on the web, some discrete master clock designs have SMA jacks and a few cm of RG316 wire...


----------



## WeirdChild

Hi guys! I am gonna try the Audio-gd clock mod! Looks very promising. Recently upgraded my STX with 3 Burson V5 om amps! Amazing results! Want to push this card a bit more. Just wondering what exact product did you get from them. JZ-1 Type 3: (Output 24.576MHz), But was the Standard version or the TCXO version? Thanks in advance!


----------



## vegards

WeirdChild: Did you upgrade to the Audio-gd? If so what version did you buy? TCXO version? 

 Where is the easiest place to connect the power on the Audio-gd?


----------



## WeirdChild

vegards said:


> WeirdChild: Did you upgrade to the Audio-gd? If so what version did you buy? TCXO version?
> 
> Where is the easiest place to connect the power on the Audio-gd?


 
  
 Hi! Yes I managed to do the upgrade and it was very simple. I got the TCXO version from audio-gd and the easiest way to power it up is to use a molex adapter soldered to V rails of the clock. Yellow wire in a molex is 12v and black is GND.
  
 I used an old molex female plug from an old computer and then all I needed was to find a molex plug from my PSU and thats it!


----------



## WeirdChild

I do not own this photo, found it in an italian forum. Just note this is the ST version. And the clock wiring is a tad different from the STX. But the power up is the same.


----------



## vegards

weirdchild said:


> I do not own this photo, found it in an italian forum. Just note this is the ST version. And the clock wiring is a tad different from the STX. But the power up is the same.


 
 I just received the clock and I am now ready for installation  Do you know if it matters what kind of cable I use to connect the the clock to the STX? Will any copper wire work? Did you also remove these two small caps and the small resistor? Marked red in this picture: 

 I am not sure if its necessary to remove those.


----------



## WeirdChild

Hi vegards! I used some spare fan wire for the project. Also, I did not remove those caps, I am not sure If I had to, anyways, didnt have any problems! Hope this helps!


----------

