# Feliks-Audio ELISE...(previously 6SN7 + 6AS7G/6080 prototype)



## hypnos1

Edit...the amp has been named the 'Elise', and I am indexing the more relevant posts at the end of this one for those who may not have the time to plough through them all at first (although there are a good few other interesting contributions that you may want to browse at your leisure!)...
                                           
                                  
  
  
 On encouragement from member 'Lorspeaker', I am starting this thread to channel any interested folks here - new ones as well as those from "Little Dot Tube Amps Vacuum Tube Rolling Guide" (which is where I first mooted the suggestion re this project), and from "For 6AS7G tube rollers here".
  
 For those who are wondering what it's all about - a quick intro...
  
 After a year with the marvellous guys at LDTAVTRG, where we discovered wonderful results from using 6SN7s and especially 6AS7G/6080s (in amps that were NEVER intended for such tubes!), some of us felt the need to up our game and have gone, or are going for, higher level units...Woo/B'Head/Glenn etc.
  
 I myself, however, cannot afford most of these prices so while looking around I saw the *Feliks-Audio Espressivo-E*  (reviewed in another thread some while ago - but correct price now being about £230), made in Poland by feliks-audio.pl. Although it looked very well made, I felt it was let down badly by using mediocre tubes...ie 6N1P drivers and 6N6P powers. My LDMKIV SE had 6H30Pi-EH power tubes as stock, and when we found the massive improvement by using the 6AS7G/6080 I (tongue in cheek) suggested to the Feliks guys that a unit using the popular 6SN7 as drivers for the 6AS7G family would surely bring a great improvement, and appeal to a much wider audience - both in Europe and especially in the US and Canada - if the price was right!
  
 Well, amazingly, they (specifically Lukasz) agreed and have just started on a prototype. Interested forum members have made suggestions re possible extra features, and he has already agreed to incorporate a protection circuit in the pre-amp section for use of DC direct coupled amps. He is considering balanced output as well as SE (but as an optional upgrade), and I am awaiting reply on some other possible optionals, like facility for the 5998 as well as the 6AS7G; 12SN7 provision; separate low/high impedance h'phone function...
  
 The projected time frame is within the month (hopefully!...Edit...19/02/15 - first main production units now being constructed), and although it's too early of course to get a close final cost, they are seriously (again, even _more_ hopefully) looking to try and pitch at *BELOW $500 *for the base unit...which will be some miracle, given the prices of some of the better Chinese models. Only time will tell if they can achieve the impossible...I for one am praying they can (especially as I want to see what my GEC 6AS7Gs can REALLY do - these tubes are awesome!). Edit...launch price confirmed at $500 + shipping.
  
 Edit...from 20th June 2015 the post-introductory price is $649, with the re-issue Tung Sol 6SN7 as standard.
  
 Anyway, folks, I'll finish for now but will keep you updated as soon as I get further info from the Feliks people.
  
  
 Edit/Index...
  
 First the main specs (as of 18th Jan - further info to follow soon) :
  
 SE OTL Headphone amp + preamp (with protection circuit for use of direct-coupled power amps).
  
 2x 6H5C (6SN7 equiv.) drivers; 2x 6N13S (6AS7G/6080 equiv.) powers - configured for good performance with low-impedance headphones, as well as high-impedance...(32 - 600ohm). Adapters/extenders for use of wider-based 6080 tubes...*EDIT*, May 2015 :
     1. Re. low-z HPs, I personally found Audeze LCD2s were driven easily by the amp, and member Shaffer was impressed also : viz post#s 1112 (p75) & 1159 (p78).
     2. From about unit 4 onwards the amp's sockets were raised flush with the case, thus allowing for wider-based tubes without the need for adapters/extenders.
  
 220/240V model and 110/120V model.
 Output impedance 50 ohms
  
 Over-sized transformer (specially manufactured in Poland) for better performance/capacity.
  
 Very low heat of both case and transformer housing.
  
 Special unique 'in-house' developed  noise/hum suppression feature.
  
 Price (launch)  :  $500 (incl VAT) + shipping (post-introductory, from 20th June '15 : $649 + shipping)
  
 A peek inside...certain spots blurred so as to retain some of the in-house R&D elements :
  

  
 And a peek outside...
  

  
 And video...(initial impression also on page 35)..

  
 PRODUCTION UPDATE - 19/02/15....The first batch of (pre) orders is now under construction...
                                  -   3/04/15....The first units (240V) having been delivered, the next batch (120V) should be on their 
                                                      way within the week.
                                                      The website has been updated, with more info and facility for direct ordering. Plus the 
                                                      option for upgraded driver tubes, ie new production Tung Sol 6SN7s or Melz metal-
                                                      based equivalents.      
                                  - 10/04/15....The lead time for new orders is 4 to 5 weeks
  
 Index... post#s :                   
  
 Video/photos....512; 520 (page 35 - video with initial impressions); 576; 670.
  
 Related info/assessments....428; 533; 555/557; 561; 569; 588; 599; 604; 692(original ref to 'atma-sphere' article courtesy of Acapella 11);696; 712; 734; 740; 752(preamp results);891;909;1063,page 71(by Shaffer, USA) + 1112, p75 and 1159, p78.
  
 Useful links  :  http://www.feliksaudio.pl/en
                      http://www.head-fi.org/products/feliks-audio-elise/reviews/13718 (Review by agnostic 1er)
                      http://www.head-fi.org/products/feliks-audio-elise (A review by Renderman)
                       http://www.head-fi.org/t/765460/feliks-audio-elise-tube-rolling-guide-6sn7-6as7g-6080-5998
                       http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
                       http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts
                       http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here


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## kvtaco17

Subbed


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## Lorspeaker

http://www.feliksaudio.pl/
  
 A few teaser-pics...the original model ( before the "makeover" ) :
  

  



  
 Isnt she a beau.... 
  
 if it can drive LOW impedence cans too, controlling the bass,  that would be awesome... 


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



as it is, one of my tube amps just choke up with my D7k...couf couf.


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## hypnos1

kvtaco17 said:


> Subbed


 
  
 ....Magic Wand??!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...


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## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> http://www.feliksaudio.pl/
> 
> A few teaser-pics...the original model ( before the "makeover" ) :
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi *L*.
  
 Many thanks for posting these pics....you've beaten me to it...AGAIN!! I feel redundant already lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 It sure would be a very useful addition, even if it has to be an optional upgrade - given the targeted price point...


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## Rossliew

Can't wait for impressions on its sound especially compared against the LD and LF339


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## hypnos1

rossliew said:


> Can't wait for impressions on its sound especially compared against the LD and LF339


 
  
 I'm afraid I don't have the MKVI+/MKVIII or LF, so that will have to be up to somebody else, sadly!
  
 However, as I'm sure my modded LD MKIVSE (with C3GS drivers and GEC 6AS7Gs) is possibly at least the equal of the MK9, I too can't wait to see how the Feliks compares to this particular amp...


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## hypnos1

Hi folks.
  
 Latest update...
  
 In order to keep to the target price and time-frame, the prototype will (of course!) be the basic unit, viz :
  
 2 6N13S power tubes (which I believe aren't too bad at all, but which I am sure we will all replace with our own favourites!)..Edit - some days later...I now realise I was rather hasty in making this uninformed comment. Have since learned (as expanded on later) that I seriously undervalued their qualities, and believe they will actually prove more than good enough for many people who _don't_ have their favourites - and possibly even those that do lol!)...And they feel these should probably drive low impedance 'phones pretty well...
  
 1 or 2 6SN7s - they are still experimenting to see what is really needed. But for me, anyway, 2 6AS7Gs (or 6080s) is MUCH more important.
  
 Protection circuit in the pre-amp section for use of DC direct coupled amps.
  
 There will be, as opposed to their former model, just one signal input...which will make for a much neater front panel - just one nice big volume control knob...
  
 They have taken serious note of the other suggestions made, but most would probably have to wait until further down the road, depending on level of demand...which is quite understandable, given the immensity of this task.
  
 Further info re progress will be given by Lukasz as soon as is possible.


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## Lorspeaker

noob question..
  
 so must i have 2 back tubes that are "balanced, matched etc etc " ?
 i have been buying single tubes so far...
 or will there be a knob to adjust the leftright balance of sound? 
 how is this done on other amps?


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## MIKELAP

lorspeaker said:


> noob question..
> 
> so must i have 2 back tubes that are "balanced, matched etc etc " ?
> i have been buying single tubes so far...
> ...


 
 I have a Woo Audio 2 that uses 6AS7 tubes and they are not matched and it sounds good to me try your singles first as long as they are the same brand so they sound the same


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## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> noob question..
> 
> so must i have 2 back tubes that are "balanced, matched etc etc " ?
> i have been buying single tubes so far...
> ...


 
  
 Hi *Lorspeaker.*
  
 As mikelap said, it appears you don't really need to spend loads extra just to have them "balanced, matched". Just the same tube type should be fine, especially from the same manufacturer (but given that the same branded tubes could come from different makers, who knows _what_ we're getting sometimes!!). Actually, when I was using 6SN7s as the power tubes in my LD, I mixed a PsVane CV181-TII with a 7N7 and the result was BETTER than 2 of each! So sometimes the rules _can_ be rewritten, lol!
  
 As for balance knob the answer is no...I would imagine this is not normally done due to the likelihood of degrading sound (think I'm right), plus cost. Separate adjustment comes with the more expensive "dual mono" type of set-up.


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## Lorspeaker

ok...i will not worry about this for now...since i am still on the DV. 
  
 Can a 7N7 be used on a 6as7 slot? u need any adaptor? i am so afraid of burninng the amp.
  
 Last nite, i accidentally plug a 5U4g rectifier into the back slot of the DV...it was dark,
 and left it there to  "warm up"...but no sound came out thru the headfone, i tot the tube died on me..
 and the amp was so HOOOOOT...enuf to fried a pc of steak, reminded me of the LYR. 
  
 luckily the amp survived..


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## gibosi

lorspeaker said:


> ok...i will not worry about this for now...since i am still on the DV.
> 
> Can a 7N7 be used on a 6as7 slot? u need any adaptor? i am so afraid of burninng the amp.


 
  
 The 7N7 would need an adapter as it has an 8-pin loctal base. Even so, the 7N7 is electrically the same as a 6SN7, so you would get essentially the same effect by using a 6SN7 in the 6AS7 slot. It wouldn't hurt anything, but might not sound all that good....


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## Nic Rhodes

Another subscriber here


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## hypnos1

nic rhodes said:


> Another subscriber here


 
  
 Hi Nic.
  
 Nice to see you here...let's all hope for good things from Poland, no?
  
 I really do hope there will be a good few folks seriously interested enough to give the (anticipated!) amp a try...the more ears the better, for judging the _real_ pedigree of something new, lol! Especially as I don't pretend to be anything other than a novice still at this game - even after over a year experimenting with all the other guys over at LDTAVTRolling Guide. I hope I can remain totally impartial when the unit finally arrives 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...am working hard at trying to temper my excitement, in the interests of objectivity!!
  
 Actually, while I'm here, I may as well mention something that has cheered me up no end : from over at the "6SN7 tube addicts" thread, the maker of the *GLENN* amps, no less, has stated that he regards the "Winged C" 6N13S (6H13C) as the best - for his amps, anyway. PRAISE INDEED! (Two other members agreed with him as to their prowess). So now this bodes well for those who may not want to stray from stock powers (and perhaps spend the money on different 6SN7s instead?!)...Wonderful news 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Mind you, I'll be pig sick if they oust my (very) expensive GECs!! Still, as *Lorspeaker* said (along with others), it's all down to "synergy".
  
 It seems to me more and more that the combination of 6SN7 and 6AS7G/6080/6N13S is going to provide a wonderful opportunity to "fine tune" the sound to suit individual preference, and without having to perform the kinds of modification that I, and others, have had to make in the quest for "better" sound.


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## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Mind you, I'll be pig sick if they oust my (very) expensive GECs!


 
  
 I don't think that's something you need to worry about, and I say this as a fan of the Svetlana 6N13S...


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## hypnos1

oskari said:


> I don't think that's something you need to worry about, and I say this as a fan of the Svetlana 6N13S...


 
  
 Aah, Oskari...I go to bed a very happy man...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Cheers!  And good night...


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## Oskari

Sweet tube dreams!


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## tjw321

oskari said:


> Sweet tube dreams!


 
 I live in London, UK. Over here, tubes are "valves", and "the tube" is a very unpleasant way to commute to work (it's our over-crowded [at rush hour], underground train network). My tube dreams are never sweet as they are usually claustrophobic and end with me arriving at work, OTOH my valve dreams....


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## Lorspeaker

The valves in my country convey water...sometimes hot water..


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## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> http://www.feliksaudio.pl/
> 
> A few teaser-pics...the original model ( before the "makeover" ) :
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi *Lorspeaker*.
  
  
 This subject of driving low AND high impedance cans brings me nicely to the latest UPDATE from *Feliks-Audio...*
  
 They have decided to use TWO 6SN7s, as opposed to some of the oppositions' ONE driver...and I myself am over the moon.
  
 Although - as another very respected member pointed out - one may be quite sufficient to do the job sound-wise (and true, means finding 2 not-too-dissimilar tubes), the Feliks guys have found that the advantage is in helping to better drive low impedance 'phones. Which can only be a good thing for those who have 'em lol!
  
 And also, let's face it, it will look MUCH better than "Cyclops" sitting, staring at you, no?! (Aesthetics are important to me, anyway,...as well as sound...so long as the former doesn't detract from the latter!!).
  
 Another PLUS is a *2-YEAR WARRANTY...*Nice...
  
 Further info to follow...


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## Lorspeaker

geez...i only have one pair of matching GEs.


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## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> Hi *Lorspeaker*.
> 
> 
> This subject of driving low AND high impedance cans brings me nicely to the latest UPDATE from *Feliks-Audio...*
> ...


 
 Style is very important thats why i got the WA2 its a great looking amp especially with 6AS7 type tubes and it sounds good so looks are very important in my book .I was checking Bottleheads Mainline amp its a good amp from what i heard but its not a looker just for that  i probably wouldnt buy it .


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## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> geez...i only have one pair of matching GEs.


 
  
 I wouldn't worry _too_ much about "matching", *L -  *there often seem to be pairs of used tubes available that test good to strong, and are fairly close in their readings. Most amps seem to be quite forgiving when it comes to tubes being "balanced and matched", IMHO.
  
 Actually, while on this subject (which I have pondered for some time now), I wonder how many people have actually taken readings of the signal out levels L & R from their sources...I think they would be surprised/shocked at the differences there can be! Does that make any difference?...I would have thought so, but I could be wrong...
  
 Also, I wonder just how many people have _identical_ hearing in both ears...not very many, I would suspect - either in volume level or frequency range retrieval...food for thought?...
  


mikelap said:


> Style is very important thats why i got the WA2 its a great looking amp especially with 6AS7 type tubes and it sounds good so looks are very important in my book .I was checking Bottleheads Mainline amp its a good amp from what i heard but its not a looker just for that  i probably wouldnt buy it .


 
  
 Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way, MIKELAP...So on the looks front alone, this unit should kick the LD MK9, for example, WAY into touch! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But as I said before, it must NOT be at the expense of SOUND!!...Further musings on this in my next post...


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## Lorspeaker

WHilst we are waiting...may i ask a noob question about rectifier :
  
 I have rectifiers like 5U4, 5Y3, 5AR4, GZ32, GZ34 ( used on a Decware Csp2+ )...
 can such rectifiers be used on a 6AS7 slot...and vice versa..say with an easy addition of an adaptor? 
 Any danger?  Or i should just keep them apart?


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## gibosi

lorspeaker said:


> WHilst we are waiting...may i ask a noob question about rectifier :
> 
> I have rectifiers like 5U4, 5Y3, 5AR4, GZ32, GZ34 ( used on a Decware Csp2+ )...
> can such rectifiers be used on a 6AS7 slot...and vice versa..say with an easy addition of an adaptor?
> Any danger?  Or i should just keep them apart?


 
  
 No. This would not work and moreover, it is not something you want to do. So just keep them apart.


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## Lorspeaker

ratssss........ this hobby is getting expensive


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## mordy

Hi,
  
 Read with interest about the virtues of the 6N13S Svetlana Tubes with a winged "C". Did anybody compare them to the Chatham 6AS7G tubes?
  
 If I decide to get a pair, which years and production should I look for?


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## kvtaco17

mordy said:


> Hi,
> 
> Read with interest about the virtues of the 6N13S Svetlana Tubes with a winged "C". Did anybody compare them to the Chatham 6AS7G tubes?
> 
> If I decide to get a pair, which years and production should I look for?


 
 I have in my Glenn amp and the Chatham's sounded cleaner and more dynamic... the Svetlana's weren't bad though...


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## Lorspeaker

On the DV336se with aTungsol6sn7GTB front tube, the wingedC sounded slightly more captivating than the Chatham ...
But with a psvane cv181tii in the front, the RCA came alive..n the Chatham was pushed towards being too airy / thin of sorts.

My point is...it is about pairing on your amp setup.



RCA (left) , Chatham (right)


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## Nic Rhodes

I like the 60s and 70s producution on the 6N13s best but 80s still good. I find them one of the more consistent of the Russian tubes and also one of the great Russian tubes that hasn't been 'discovered' yet. Unfortunately pricess of 6N23s have gone silly recently. let's hope that doesn't happen to 6N13s 60s production..


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## Lorspeaker

oh...6n23s... the craze on the LYR tube rolling thread? 
  
 i almost wanna try out a pair for my csp2+ ..


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## i luvmusic 2

I bought this Svetlana Winged "C" 6H13C for $6/tubes awhile back and now these price went up.


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## Lorspeaker

what amp design is tat...interestg


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## i luvmusic 2

Butchered Littledot 1+.


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## gibosi

I call mine a "Little Monster Dot".  lol 
  
 In the above pic, running a Sylvania sub-miniature 7963... 
  
 And below, a Tung-Sol 5687WA


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## Lorspeaker

looks like an oil rig to me


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## gibosi

I'll give you that. But at least to my ears, it sounds a bit better than your average oil rig. 
  
 Cheers


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## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> looks like an oil rig to me


 
  
 Hi *L*...you wouldn't believe what we all got up to on the LD Rolling Guide over the past year!
  
 And the upshot for this project (luckily) is that we discovered what others already knew...the wonders of 6SN7s and 6AS7Gs...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## hypnos1

Well folks, having been enlightened by enthusiasts more experienced than I, it looks like I need to review my opening statement about "replacing the 6N13S with our own favourites"...
  
 Although I'm sure this may still apply to some of those with stocks of various flavours, I obviously undervalued the qualities of the Svetlana "Winged C" in particular...I stand corrected!...(Sorry there's no smiley for "eating humble pie" lol!).
  
 Further to the last update from the Feliks guys and the decision to use 2 6SN7s, there has been a query as to just how this helps re low impedance 'phones. So I am hoping for further clarification on this subject...should be quite interesting...
  
 I had asked that any saving by using just one might go towards higher grade wiring/caps etc. Lukasz replied that using 2 would not hike the cost unacceptably, and that they already use very good quality wiring and components. He emphasised that quality was paramount to their products...which has to be the deciding factor in such a crowded market, and especially to keep ahead of Far East competition...(and which is why I approached them in the first place!).
  
 The clock is ticking...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## i luvmusic 2

Or a rocket launcher.........


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## gibosi

A sub-miniature 7963 very elegantly stuffed into an octal base....  
  

  
 A pair of C3g's....
  

  
 A 25 Volt 1633 (25SN7)....
  

  
 Two 9-pin 6DJ8's crammed into 7-pin sockets, using only one triode in each bottle...  lol 
  
 But of course, I wouldn't dream of doing anything like this with a Feliks amp.. Maybe....


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## Lorspeaker

gibosi... u should start your own production of exotic lukg amps


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## gibosi

Lorspeaker...  Thank you for the vote of confidence... But I don't think the world is ready yet... lol


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## Lorspeaker

lorspeaker said:


> WHilst we are waiting...may i ask a noob question about rectifier :
> 
> I have rectifiers like 5U4, 5Y3, 5AR4, GZ32, GZ34 ( used on a Decware Csp2+ )...
> can such rectifiers be used on a 6AS7 slot...and vice versa..say with an easy addition of an adaptor?
> Any danger?  Or i should just keep them apart?


 
 whilst we are waiting....
  
 Anyone knows what are the reasons why some ampmakers use one category of rectifiers such as 5U4,GZ34 etc..
 and another amp maker would want to use 6AS7s? 
 ( got to do with european std vs usa std?? or sound or voltage or ??? )


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## gibosi

These tubes do very different things. The rectifier tube is part of the amp's electrical power supply. Its function is to convert the AC (alternating current) coming out of the wall to DC (direct current) which is used to run the amp. Many amps, such as the Feliks, use solid state rectifiers. The 6AS7 is a double triode amplifier used as an output tube. So again, these are very different tubes with very different functions.


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## hypnos1

Still awaiting further updates from the Feliks guys...I'm getting SO impatient!...but I must try to remember that creating a new product is no easy task (as I recall administrator Currawong pointing out in a thread somewhere...).
  
 In the meantime, my combination of C3GSs and GEC 6AS7Gs in my modded Little Dot MKIV SE just keeps getting more and more magical...presumably because of further burn-in of the GECs (which were NOS...THANK GOD!...because now all 4 of my "ex-equipment" tubes - 2 of which were the coveted curved-bottom base version!! - are dead 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...).
  
 Soo...this means that the eagerly-awaited amp in question really is gonna have to go some to blow me away! Mind you, even if it only pips the LD by a margin, with less exotic/expensive tubes, then it will still be a marvel...no worries about pushing things to (or beyond!) the limit; having to use adapters; providing separate heater power supply, etc. etc. And as for when the GECs go in...I'm salivating already, lol!
  
 The clock is _still_ ticking...STOP IT, CJ..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


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## Lorspeaker

u ever tried using a tube pre-amp b4 your tube amp? any comments?


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## i luvmusic 2

I tried my MK III as pre amp for the CRACK it's nice but i'am a bit confused on which Volume control i have to use.I usually set the MK III volume all the way up and used the Crack volume to control the level.But some of the tube slight hum from the MK III is amplified.


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## Lorspeaker

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I tried my MK III as pre amp for the CRACK it's nice but i'am a bit confused on which Volume control i have to use.I usually set the MK III volume all the way up and used the Crack volume to control the level.But some of the tube slight hum from the MK III is amplified.


 
  
 my own "logic" says the same to the above...
 am using a CSP2+ as a preamp now, i read somewhere in the decwarethread..
 to lower the vol on the preamp until the humm is silenced, then up the vol on the main amp to my listening level. that seems to work.
  
 from what i am hearing...having a preamp stretches the soundstage deeper n adds more layerings
 into those depth. ( at least with the csp2+ as preamp...not sure if thats the case with other preamps)


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## gibosi

When using a pre-amp and an amp with separate volume controls, it is my understanding that it is best to turn the volume all the way up on one of the units, which completely eliminates resistance in the signal path, and then control the level using the other unit. 
  
 While not a tube amp, I use an Audio-gd Fun as a DAC/pre-amp in front of the LD. I turn the volume on the LD all the way up and control the level using the Audio-gd. Sounds good to me.


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## Lorspeaker

Not familiar with the best working range of tubes...
 but i tot it is not good to listen to tubes at both ends of their volume ..
 so i normally cut back a notch or two on either amps...just to feel safe.


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## gibosi

It is my understanding that when tubes are on, they are always running full tilt. If the volume control is set very low, the signal coming into the amp is attenuated, and therefore, you have a very small signal on the grid. And a very small signal on the grid results in a small signal out of the amp. If the volume control is set to the max, the signal coming into the amp is not attenuated at all, and therefore, you have a larger signal on the grid and a larger signal out of the amp. So the volume control has no effect on the tube itself. It only affects the size of the signal introduced into the tube for amplification.
  
 Going back to using a preamp and an amp, both with volume controls, it is best to turn one all the way up to eliminate any resistance in the signal path. And use the other to adjust the level at the headphone jack. I use the analogy of a stereo system with a pre-amp and a power amp. Typically, the power amp has no volume control. Controlling the level is one of the functions of a pre-amp. So I crank the volume of my "power-amp", that is, the LD1+ my headphones are connected to, all the way up and I control the level with the Audio-gd. However, similar to ILM2 with his LDIII, I hear a little ground hum when it is maxed out, so I back it off a tiny bit, to eliminate the hum. My guess is there needs to be a minimal level of resistance in the volume circuit in order for it to operate properly.
  
 My advice for ILM2 is to set the Crack to the maximum, as this is your "power amp", and control the level with your LDIII. If the Crack hums full on, just back it off a hair.
  
 Anyway, this is only my opinion. It works for me. But of course, I know just enough about this stuff to get myself in trouble... but not enough to get myself out of trouble....  lol


----------



## Lorspeaker

i am enjoying this...i have a slightly diff self-imagined logic,
 i turned the tube preamp to max, wanting to MILK out all the goodness of the tubejuice on the csp2+,
 and controlling the full brunt of the tubegoodness at the final tubeamp...
 opening up the volumetap on the headfone until my ears cant take in anymore..LOL
  
 But logically..i think Gibosi is more correct.  
 i will try it out.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> It is my understanding that when tubes are on, they are always running full tilt. If the volume control is set very low, the signal coming into the amp is attenuated, and therefore, you have a very small signal on the grid. And a very small signal on the grid results in a small signal out of the amp. If the volume control is set to the max, the signal coming into the amp is not attenuated at all, and therefore, you have a larger signal on the grid and a larger signal out of the amp. So the volume control has no effect on the tube itself. It only affects the size of the signal introduced into the tube for amplification.
> 
> Going back to using a preamp and an amp, both with volume controls, it is best to turn one all the way up to eliminate any resistance in the signal path. And use the other to adjust the level at the headphone jack. I use the analogy of a stereo system with a pre-amp and a power amp. Typically, the power amp has no volume control. Controlling the level is one of the functions of a pre-amp. So I crank the volume of my "power-amp", that is, the LD1+ my headphones are connected to, all the way up and I control the level with the Audio-gd. However, similar to ILM2 with his LDIII, I hear a little ground hum when it is maxed out, so I back it off a tiny bit, to eliminate the hum. My guess is there needs to be a minimal level of resistance in the volume circuit in order for it to operate properly.
> 
> ...


 
 With my Conductor's preamp i use my Pionner SX750 and HD800  i usually  set attenuator at 75% on preamp and ajust volume on Pioneer because i get hum at around halfway on Pioneer probably because of age and the high impedance of HP on lower impedance still hums but less,also loud is 9 o'clock on Pioneer


----------



## Lorspeaker

my preamp starts to hummmm at about  70% gain too...


----------



## Rossliew

I tried using the Little Dot Mk 3 OTL amp as pre-amp into the Mjolnir. At first i turned the MJ volume knob to the max output and used the LD's volume knob as control. With my HE500 and HD600, there was a noticeable hum on the left channel when no music was playing. Conversely, if I used the MJ as the volume control, there was no hum at all. But I noticed the sound coming out when using the LD as volume control was fuller bodied with punchier bass and more forward mids. In short, it sounded nicer to these ears but the hum was irritating. So, now I back off on the MJ volume knob to about 12 o'clock and still use the LD as control. Problem solved and it still sounds good!


----------



## Lorspeaker

did u find the soundstage improved?


----------



## Rossliew

Hmm...i doubt if it did. I would believe adding a pre-amp into an integrated will just make it sound worse since you are adulterating the path which sounds travel (or something to that effect LOL). Oh well, it was just an experiment since the LD was lying around, not getitng any listening time..


----------



## Lorspeaker

The Csp2+ as a preamp...makes my DV336se sounds really huge.


But if I switch them around...they sounded worse off than being alone.


----------



## eppz

What is the ETA on this ? 
 Is the version sold on ebay the old one ?


----------



## xxxfbsxxx

lorspeaker said:


> i am enjoying this...i have a slightly diff self-imagined logic,
> i turned the tube preamp to max, wanting to MILK out all the goodness of the tubejuice on the csp2+,
> and controlling the full brunt of the tubegoodness at the final tubeamp...
> opening up the volumetap on the headfone until my ears cant take in anymore..LOL
> ...


 
 can you please tell me what volume level and input adjustment knob you set for using csp2+as preamp?
 never used it that way but really want to try )


----------



## hypnos1

eppz said:


> What is the ETA on this ?
> Is the version sold on ebay the old one ?


 
  
 Hi eppz.
  
 The original hoped-for date was within the next 2 weeks, or so...but I must admit I thought the time frame somewhat optimistic!
  
 Am emailing them right now to see if there's any more info yet...will post the second I get any more news.
  
 And yes, the ebay Espressivo-E is the old model, with 6N1P drivers and 6N6P power tubes - the new one having 6SN7 drivers and 6N13S (6AS7G/6080) powers, which _should_ be a good leap ahead of the 'E', both in stock flavour and especially with some even more exotic/favourite tubes...


----------



## Lorspeaker

xxxfbsxxx said:


> can you please tell me what volume level and input adjustment knob you set for using csp2+as preamp?
> never used it that way but really want to try )




U hv a csp2+?
The gainswitch at the rear is set to Max minus 3clicks...
The main volume knob is maxxx out.
The Darkvoice is at 12 noon..
(my audioGd dac is on low gain)
Thie above is my listening volume on a DT150.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys.
  
 Sorry things have been quiet on the update front...messages from Lukasz at Feliks-Audio didn't get through to me (which had me slightly worried as he is always so prompt with his replies to my communications).
  
 Anyway, he will re-send and I shall post as soon as I get them...but now it's my beauty sleep time (boy, do I need it!...).
  
 So keep looking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## hypnos1

Well, folks...good news - especially for you low-impedance can users - two protos were tried (amazing, given they were closed for a week!), and 2 6SN7s apparently DID give better results than just 1, which is really nice to know and should be a very useful added bonus over the competition.
  
 Am now awaiting an estimated trial date...and getting even _more _excited/impatient!


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> Well, folks...good news - especially for you low-impedance can users - two protos were tried (amazing, given they were closed for a week!), and 2 6SN7s apparently DID give better results than just 1, which is really nice to know and should be a very useful added bonus over the competition.
> 
> Am now awaiting an estimated trial date...and getting even _more _excited/impatient!


 
 Output impedance is suppose to be low for it to work good with low impedance HP on a SS amp, does this also apply to a tube amp.


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Output impedance is suppose to be low for it to work good with low impedance HP on a SS amp, does this also apply to a tube amp.


 
  
 Afraid I don't know the definitive answer to this one, *M*...but after testing, the Feliks guys found that "by parameters measured and _subjectively_ the low-impedance 'phones much preferred the 2x 6SN7 set-up". And although they couldn't give a purely _scientific_ explanation for this, in my book what your ears tell you is FAR more important lol!


----------



## Lorspeaker

two oxen is better than one... with a proper yoke.


----------



## hypnos1

Further update...Have literally just heard from Lukasz re time frame - he "would like to have a working production unit (with quality case, etc.) by the end of October". Which I think is still pretty amazing, all things considered.
  
 Now I just have to be patient._..me?_...that's asking a miracle!


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> two oxen is better than one... with a proper yoke.


 
  
 Couldn't have put it better myself, *L*...


----------



## hypnos1

Am beginning to really drool with expectation now my GEC 6AS7Gs (CV2523,NOS) have further burn-in on them (in my LD MKIV SE). What they are doing for this relatively modest amp (with C3GS drivers) is quite beyond belief...just what they will give in an amp _properly_ designed to take this family of 'power' tubes has me even _more_ impatient, lol!
  
 I know these GECs are _extremely_ rare, not to mention expensive, but if discovered for a _reasonable_ price all I can say is GRAB 'EM fast! - but if used, make sure they have been thoroughly tested to work OK...unfortunately they are not the most reliable of tubes.


----------



## Lorspeaker

wats a reasonable price, given your exp ?


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> wats a reasonable price, given your exp ?


 
  
 Hi Lorspeaker.
  
 VERY good question...and a difficult one, lol!
  
 I daren't put in print what I paid for my NOS tubes, but one of our esteemed colleagues snatched a really good deal on 2 good used CV2523s for $75 each (lucky feller!). So I would imagine you'd need to be just as lucky to find one (or 2) for that kind of money 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but who knows? As member mordy also points out, there ARE deals to be found...but you have to look in all the "nooks and crannies" of ebay; possibly email dealers direct in the hope they might just turn up with the pot of gold; keep an eye open (or, rather, BOTH!) for tubes that may not be listed fully - eg. I once saw somebody manage to strike REAL lucky with a pair stamped 'Hytron - or was it 'Haltron'?! Edit : must have been Haltron methinks... - 6AS7G, but also on the tube was A1834...PURE GOLD!! However, the same seller also had the same branded 6AS7G tubes (but without the A1834), only these were the Russian versions - identifiable by the twin "UFO"- shaped bottom getters (and to be found for a fraction of the GEC's price, of course).
  
 Also, don't forget mordy's mantra - PATIENCE, PATIENCE and more PATIENCE...if you can manage it!
  
 Happy hunting...


----------



## mordy

Hi,
 Hypnos 1 asked me to post to the Feliks-Audio forum methods to shop Ebay for bargains, so of course I have to comply.
 Since I have a self imposed rule of not paying more than $8/tube perhaps I have a different way of shopping Ebay. (Occasionally I break my own rule - some tubes just can't be found that cheap.)
  
 Not long ago a pair of RCA(GE?) 6AS7 tubes went for less than $3 incl shipping (I missed the auction). Later I found one RCA 6AS7 tube for less than $3 incl shipping.
  
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-OF-GE-6AS7G-BLACK-PLATE-TUBES-TEST-88-89-AND-90-90-GUARANTEED-/181412339179?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a3d049deb
  
  
 Here I will share some points on how to find the bargains.
  
*Rule #1: Be patient.*  Keep on looking. Try to buy from somebody who is selling off his/her grandfather's radio repair shop stock rather than somebody who is making a living selling on Ebay. Don't forget that the tube that somebody sells for 99c or $5 is the same tube a pro outfit will sell for many times more.
  
 To find out if it is possible to get a real bargain, type in what you are looking for. Bring up the screen; then scroll down on the left and look for a checkbox that says "sold items."
 Click on it. You may also want to check another box on the left that says "worldwide" to get the global perspective. After doing this you can see what people actually paid. Don't kick yourself if you missed the Tung Sol black glass tube that sold two months ago for $5 that the pros are asking $149 for.
  
 Now you have established a frame of reference. It could be that what you are looking simply isn't available as a bargain. Either take the plunge, or consult rule #1 - patience. Try again later. Almost everything becomes available again. Maybe you'll pick up a pair of Lorenz (Siemens) C3g tubes for $10 on German Ebay if you can persuade the seller to ship outside Germany (market price $70). Clicking Worldwide will not bring up all the sellers; only those that ship internationally. Go to Google and type in Ebay UK or Ebay Germany etc to get access to local sellers.
  
  http://www.ebay.de/itm/2x-C3g-Lorenz-Matched-Pair-/360869114154?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_Elektronenr%C3%B6hren_Valves&hash=item540579b12a
  
 Which brings us to *rule #2: Communication.*
 Email the seller and ask, using Ebay messages. If you see a guy selling a bunch of stuff, maybe he has what you want but it isn't listed. Based on experience I would only do business through Ebay and not outside Ebay because of the buyer protection. Ask the guy to put up the tube you are looking for at the agreed buy it now price and zap it right away. Don't be afraid to ask questions (this option is at the bottom of the item page.)
 Don't forget to ask if the seller combines shipping if you are buying several tubes - it could save you a bundle.
  
 It may be helpful to use Google translate to communicate with a seller who has trouble understanding English.I have used it with Russian and German sellers with good results.

```
[left] Я использовал его с российскими и немецкими продавцов с хорошими результатами . Ich habe es mit russischen und deutschen Anbietern mit guten Ergebnissen verwendet . 我已经用它与俄罗斯和德国的销售商有良好的效果。[/left]
```


```
[left] OK, now you know what is possible to do with a little luck. How do you sort through several hundred listings for the item you want? Again, type in what you want: Super Unobtanium 6SN7GTQ. Normally, Best Match comes up first. Go to the drop down menu on the top right and click. Select lowest price+shipping. Click on it. Now you can savor the 99c stores if you are lucky. Just watch out for shipping charges. Scroll down. Your best bargains may not be lowest priced+shipping, but after scrolling down a little further you may  find somebody who is selling seven tubes for $9.99 with $4 shipping. What would you rather have? One tube for $6 including shipping, or seven for $14 including shipping? [/left]
```
  
  
 If somebody has a "Submit best offer" don't be afraid to use it by submitting a real low down offer. Your research will tell you what is reasonable. A good seller may make a reasonable counter offer instead of ignoring you. Or the seller may surprise you with accepting your shamelessly low offer... 
  
 When searching for an item try to type something very general since it usually will bring up more offerings. Sometimes the seller makes a mistake, for example listing a 6SN7 as 6SN. People looking for the 6SN7 tube will not find the 6SN. A seller may list a lot of tubes as 5 x 8677 RCA. If you look for 8677 you may not find this offering, etc,etc. Look at the picture. Sometimes the seller lists a tube according to the brand on the box, but the picture clearly shows you another brand that my be more desirable.
  
 As regards 6SN7 and many other tubes, the same name brand tube re-branded may be much cheaper. A Capeheart, Zenith, Hoffman, Stromberg-Carlson or Admiral tube may sell for less than the same tube labeled Sylvania. Learn the most common EIA codes (Electrical Industry Association). Many times these numbers appear on the tubes. 312 is Sylvania, 280 Raytheon, 233 Tung Sol, 188 GE etc. Here is a link to a list:
  
 http://www.tubemaze.info/eia-codes-to-id-tubes/
  
 Again, if you cannot find what you want at the price you want for now, consult rule #1 again - something will come up!
  
  
  
 When is Ebay sleeping?
 Some times may be better for Buying/selling than other times. Here is a partial answer to this question:


 In other words, are there times when you can get a better buy, or are there times when fewer people look for things to buy, resulting in less competition for bids? 
 The answer is simple and common sense, but maybe this knowledge will help you in snagging a good deal (or avoiding something to go for 99 cents).
 Basically, your chances of getting a better buy are when people are busy with other things and don't have time to check Ebay. Such times are national holidays and Saturday nights when many people are busy doing other things. If you are selling something, avoid the auction to finish Saturday night or on the 4th of July, Thanksgiving etc. An auction ending on a Sunday many times gets a better price since people have time shopping Ebay.
  
 You probably know all of the above already, but maybe you will find something helpful here.
  
 Happy tube rolling!


----------



## Lorspeaker

Ok I confess...I snagged a pair of 6as7s for 5bucks one hot summer nite.




(.......shipping to Siberia was $231.78 )


----------



## mordy

LOL -  I always quote prices including shipping to make it an even playing field.
  
 The actual shipping cost from Siberia should be less than $20 for two octal tubes.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Back then i found a 1 RCA 6AS7G for $9.99 US + $39.99 shipping from US to CANADA + $8 import charged and i thought this one is a ripoff but 2 tubes $231 for  a shipping that is the biggest BULL i've seen.


----------



## Lorspeaker

it is just a YAKADeeYAK


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi,
> Hypnos 1 asked me to post to the Feliks-Audio forum methods to shop Ebay for bargains, so of course I have to comply.
> Since I have a self imposed rule of not paying more than $8/tube perhaps I have a different way of shopping Ebay. (Occasionally I break my own rule - some tubes just can't be found that cheap.)
> 
> ...


 
  
 You're the MAN, mordy!..
  
 Cheers...


----------



## hypnos1

Well folks, the end of October seems _so_ far away...mordy's rule #1 (PATIENCE) is sometimes the hardest of all to stick to - but I _am_ trying, lol!
  
 It looks like the Feliks-Audio guys are certainly not skimping on this project. As Lukasz stated, this is much more than just an "upgraded" Espressivo model - they are even playing with different case design/size to possibly allow for some later optional extra features that were discussed earlier...wish I were a fly on the wall of the designer's office, not to mention that of the poor accountant - he must be having nightmares! (I just hope he doesn't lose his nerve(s)..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## Lorspeaker

so they rather come out with a new model ...


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> so they rather come out with a new model ...


 
  
 Sure looks like it ,L...which makes their whole remit quite some undertaking! (Actually, I think it won't harm at all to have a little more modernising in the design - just my own personal opinion, of course!).


----------



## i luvmusic 2

If they  put all that time and money for the new amp don't expect to be that cheap/moderate price.


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> If they  put all that time and money for the new amp don't expect to be that cheap/moderate price.


 
  
 Hi ilm2.
  
 That's why I'm keeping _everything_ crossed, lol!!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > If they  put all that time and money for the new amp don't expect to be that cheap/moderate price.
> ...


 
 Lets hope for the best..........


----------



## MIKELAP

Very interested by  a  Darkvoice  336SE AMP that use a 6AS7 and  6SN7 tubes and price is $289. U.S. at Shenzen audio very tempting thats hard to beat and its been  around for a while now                                                                                                                                               .


----------



## Lorspeaker

i found one in pristine cond in a thrift shop for about less than half the price....crazy man, v enjoyable amp.
 dun hv to go for the "best" tubes...just 10-15bucks type ...and u are getting almost the best out of this amp.


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Very interested by  a  Darkvoice  336SE AMP that use a 6AS7 and  6SN7 tubes and price is $289. U.S. at Shenzen audio very tempting thats hard to beat and its been  around for a while now                                                                                                                                               .


 
  
 Hi M.
  
 That sure does look like good value for money...but I personally think you really need TWO powers, if not even 2 drivers - I had a go with a Little Bear P8 (metal-cased), which also looked pretty good inside, and uses 2 drivers...but it seemed way underpowered...
  
 I am sure the Feliks-Audio is going to be a totally different animal to either of these Chinese offerings, lol!


----------



## JamieMcC

hypnos1 said:


> Hi M.
> 
> That sure does look like good value for money...but I personally think you really need TWO powers, if not even 2 drivers - I had a go with a Little Bear P8 (metal-cased), which also looked pretty good inside, and uses 2 drivers...but it seemed way underpowered...
> 
> I am sure the Feliks-Audio is going to be a totally different animal to either of these Chinese offerings, lol!


 

 Many a Crack user would disagree but then I'm biased


----------



## Dogmatrix

hypnos1 said:


> Hi M.
> 
> That sure does look like good value for money...but I personally think you really need TWO powers, if not even 2 drivers - I had a go with a Little Bear P8 (metal-cased), which also looked pretty good inside, and uses 2 drivers...but it seemed way underpowered...
> 
> I am sure the Feliks-Audio is going to be a totally different animal to either of these Chinese offerings, lol!


 

 Bottle Head Crack says different
 These are dual triode tubes one of each is plenty in a well designed amp


----------



## Lorspeaker

i tot i read the Crack cant really handle low impedence cans...am i rite?  aint good with DIY, so i stayed away from it.


----------



## JamieMcC

lorspeaker said:


> i tot i read the Crack cant really handle low impedence cans...am i rite?  aint good with DIY, so i stayed away from it.


 

 That's right 250ohm and up seem to work the best  myT1 (600ohm) are stunning out of my modified Crack its like listening to a different set of cans compared to with the stock Crack. Saying that I have run 67ohm and 100ohm cans out of it and its still very engaging. You do notice a improvement with better amp matching particularly the lower end suffers.


----------



## Lorspeaker

Didnt know the T1 is 600ohms..
The csp2+ handles the T1 well too..
But v perforated when it encounters the denons.


----------



## hypnos1

jamiemcc said:


> That's right 250ohm and up seem to work the best  myT1 (600ohm) are stunning out of my modified Crack its like listening to a different set of cans compared to with the stock Crack. Saying that I have run 67ohm and 100ohm cans out of it and its still very engaging. You do notice a improvement with better amp matching particularly the lower end suffers.


 
  
 Hi JMcC...and Dogmatrix,
  
 Yes, the BH certainly seems to be a real good'un...but what about those who can't/won't do the DIY? - basic build, let alone further modifications? Then there's the low-impedance question...
  
 Will be nice to have another (not-too-expensive, hopefully) "iron in the fire" when looking to make what can be a VERY difficult choice, lol!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

IMO no further modifications needed for the CRACK if you install the SPEEDBALL and upgrade the  Volume POT the rest of the MOD????????????????
 Building a crack is easy if you can solder and  follow some instruction manual some basic tools your good to go.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

OR if you want something that can drive most HP get the BH S.E.X.
 BTW today i just received a shipping notice from BH for my S.E.X. amp.


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> OR if you want something that can drive most HP get the BH S.E.X.
> BTW today i just received a shipping notice from BH for my S.E.X. amp.


 
  
 Hey ilm2...you're just gonna have to get the Feliks as well and do a head-to-head, lol!..


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > OR if you want something that can drive most HP get the BH S.E.X.
> ...


 
 No problem but it need to be no more than the CRACK's price or up to $500 including shipping and i need to see the inside/gut of this amp and if they used a PCB's i might be out i love P2P's....


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> No problem but it need to be no more than the CRACK's price or up to $500 including shipping and i need to see the inside/gut of this amp and if they used a PCB's i might be out i love P2P's....


 
  
 Sorry, ilm2...it's PCB not P2P, and I don't know what sort of int'l shipping cost will be involved (I am sure, though, that it probably won't be as much as US Post Int'l is these days, lol!). Looks like your wallet can breathe easy(-ier) for a while - especially if you've gone S.E.X.y!!
  
 Happy listening


----------



## Lorspeaker

oh,,,it is not Point to point welding?? 
 which is more reliable?


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> oh,,,it is not Point to point welding??
> which is more reliable?


 
  
 Hi Lorspeaker.
  
 As usual it appears opinion is divided on this issue...fors and againsts, preferences etc.etc.
  
 Commercial production obviously prefers PCB, especially for cost reasons (once the initial high cost of board design and production set-up has been covered).
  
 As for reliability, let's face it, these days most HIGHLY complicated/essential circuitry relies on PCBs (at NASA, for example?!)...and at the end of the day, it all comes down to the quality of design, components and _construction_. This quality issue (I am happy to hear) is uppermost in the minds of the guys at Feliks-Audio - given cost remit, obviously.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

IMO it's not a matter of which is reliable it's which is easy to work with,In the past i have a chance to work with some PCB's and i quickly found out that if you screw up some of the trace/pods good luck repairing those.For looks i prefer the P2P's it have that retro look that i like.I'am not saying that PCB's are no good,I don't want anyone to shoot my A55 for this.


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> IMO it's not a matter of which is reliable it's which is easy to work with,In the past i have a chance to work with some PCB's and i quickly found out that if you screw up some of the trace/pods good luck repairing those.For looks i prefer the P2P's it have that retro look that i like.I'am not saying that PCB's are no good,I don't want anyone to shoot my A55 for this.


 
  
 Hi ilm2.
  
 Fear not...I'm not going to nuke you, lol!...for DIYers P2P is obviously the way to go. But this project is not about such a market...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > IMO it's not a matter of which is reliable it's which is easy to work with,In the past i have a chance to work with some PCB's and i quickly found out that if you screw up some of the trace/pods good luck repairing those.For looks i prefer the P2P's it have that retro look that i like.I'am not saying that PCB's are no good,I don't want anyone to shoot my A55 for this.
> ...


 
 I'am glad we're good i can sleep better at night........
 Seriously tho did they send you a picture of this new amp?


----------



## tjw321

I've been pretty quiet on this thread so I thought it was about time I posted some words of encouragement.
  
 I'm really excited about this. I don't know if I'll be able to afford one, but if it looks anything like their current models and sounds as good as expected, I'll be trying my hardest to get the funds together.
  
 And many thanks to @hypnos1 for getting it organised.


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I'am glad we're good i can sleep better at night........
> Seriously tho did they send you a picture of this new amp?


 
  
 Hi again ilm2...of course we're good - we all need our beauty sleep (well _I_ do anyway!).
  
 No pictures yet, I'm afraid...they're probably still finalising the design, with a view to possible slight enlargement for accommodating optional upgrades further down the road, depending on demand for same. I'm just _itching_ to get a peek, lol! Will post the minute I get any clue as to appearance, but I would imagine it will have to wait until the "fait accompli" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## hypnos1

tjw321 said:


> I've been pretty quiet on this thread so I thought it was about time I posted some words of encouragement.
> 
> I'm really excited about this. I don't know if I'll be able to afford one, but if it looks anything like their current models and sounds as good as expected, I'll be trying my hardest to get the funds together.
> 
> And many thanks to @hypnos1 for getting it organised.


 
  
 Hi tjw321.
  
 Many thanks for your kind words...much appreciated. I'm sure there are a good few others also interested/excited in this project - sitting in the wings?...Why not give us your views lol!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And yes, it looks like an early Christmas present is gonna be needed!!!
  
 Cheers


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> Hi tjw321.
> 
> Many thanks for your kind words...much appreciated. I'm sure there are a good few others also interested/excited in this project - sitting in the wings?...Why not give us your views lol!
> 
> ...


 
 If i remember correctly this amp will favour low impedance HP right .Interested in amps that use 6AS7 and 6sn7 tubes so far ive seen the 336se for around $350 . shipped seems to be ok with hd800 also the LA FIGARO 339 which it seems is even better with the HD800 but doesnt use 6sn7 tubes for $800.00 + very interesting amps  the Feliks -Audio amps are very nice also .Hmm....


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> If i remember correctly this amp will favour low impedance HP right .Interested in amps that use 6AS7 and 6sn7 tubes so far ive seen the 336se for around $350 . shipped seems to be ok with hd800 also the LA FIGARO 339 which it seems is even better with the HD800 but doesnt use 6sn7 tubes for $800.00 + very interesting amps  the Feliks -Audio amps are very nice also .Hmm....


 
  
 Hi MIKELAP.
  
 From what I gathered, using 2x 6sn7s (in _their_ configuration at least) helped the low-impedance 'phones...but _not_ at the expense of high-imp'ce ones. So this looks like a very versatile animal indeed...double hmm....!!


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I'am glad we're good i can sleep better at night........
> Seriously tho did they send you a picture of this new amp?


 
  
 Well ilm2...your wish is my command!...*NEWS FLASH* (just before I go to bed)...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 For you - and *EVERYONE* else of course, I've managed to squeeze out of Lukasz their computer image 'visualisations' of pretty well how the final product should look...and as I thought, they are giving it a more up-to-date, 'clean' styling.
  
 So here goes, folks - and PLEASE give your (honest) impressions, bearing in mind _real _metal should look even classier (they are still deliberating on final metal composition for the front panel).
  
  
  

  

  
  
  

  
 Suppose you would call this 'modern minimalist'...looks pretty neat to me. I think I like it already, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Oh and by the way, they are naming her...*ELISE*...
  
 Hope to see some of your impressions in the morning!
  
 Goodnight all...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > I'am glad we're good i can sleep better at night........
> ...


 
 WOW!Looks really clean looking.
  I personally prefer the volume Knob off centre and the HP Jack on the faceplate(I hate my CRACK having all of the  connections on top but then i'am after the sound not the looks) and i would like to see a separate transformer covers if it have two transformers or something like a split looks for the transformer cover.But then again this is just me.
 I like the name too "ELISE". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




(I for got my smiley and THANK YOU!)


----------



## i luvmusic 2

It looks like the LD and BURSON combined(not in a bad way).


----------



## Lorspeaker

great name...ELISE.
  
 i prefer the headfone jack on the frontplate...less strain on the jack. 
  
 will there be enuf space to accomodate PSvane CV181 cokebottle type of tubes  on the 6sn7 slots ?


----------



## john57

lorspeaker said:


> great name...ELISE.
> 
> i prefer the headfone jack on the frontplate...less strain on the jack.
> 
> will there be enuf space to accomodate PSvane CV181 cokebottle type of tubes  on the 6sn7 slots ?


 
 Same here, the headphone jack on front with the volume control on the other end.


----------



## MIKELAP

I like it its simple but headphone jack must be on the front panel  i like big volume knob in the middle like my Burson Conductor i also put a bigger knob on my Littledot MK3 and i find it looks great One thing also i hope the case will be  stirdy something that feels solid . Maybe not like wa2 but i would like it if it was . i am very interested in this amp think ill wait a bit and see how it comes out .


----------



## john57

I also like to have a big brass or gold color knob with the silver case as it would look nicer.


----------



## Lorspeaker

MIKELAP those PIPES on the LD are aweeeeeeeeeesome !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MIKELAP

lorspeaker said:


> MIKELAP those PIPES on the LD are aweeeeeeeeeesome !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
 Thanks, but gotta thank Troll Dragon for the idea . got adapters for 6SL7, 6DJ8 AND 12AX7 tubes


----------



## mordy

Would like the volume knob to be a contrasting color and also have some kind of calibration markings, on the knob or case or both. The headphone jack has to be on the front panel. There should be ample space between sockets to roll coke bottle size tubes. Where is the "on" indicator light?
  
 Another nice idea would be to supply adapters so that you can roll different tubes with pinouts other than the stock sockets.
  
 Don't know if they will have problems with the suggested name. Here is a Lotus Elise:


----------



## Lorspeaker

hope there will be a mix up n u see this "EliSE" at your doorsteps


----------



## JamieMcC

Looks interesting I am also in the headphone out on the front panel club after going through several new connectors which have become damaged and a amp that was on one occasion very nearly pulled of its shelf by a snagged cable the cable must be able to pull out cleanly in case of such a event.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I like the unstated looks, and it being called Ekise significantly helps my chances of buying one. It is the wifes middle name!


----------



## hypnos1

Hi folks...a quick *THANKS TO ALL* who have given feedback(and those yet to come) before I'm off out....will go into more depth later today.
  
 Preferences apart, the one area where I agree with everyone is the HP jack placement...I personally HATE it coming out of the top. I just hope to God they can reposition it...will be sending all our comments to Lukasz ASAP!!
  
 Keep the comments coming, y'all


----------



## Lorspeaker

I would like to see McIntosh blue dials on the front plate... 
Ok sorry...everybody goes back to bedzzz:rolleyes:


----------



## hypnos1

Hi again everyone...and thanks to *ALL* once more for your valuable comments.
  
 Have already forwarded these on to Lukasz at Feliks-Audio - ESPECIALLY re. the HP jack positioning...I've literally _begged_ him to reconsider, and trust they will take serious note. I wouldn't have thought it _too_ difficult to arrange, and I'm sure it wouldn't spoil the 'clean' look of the front panel one bit.
  
 I must admit, MIKELAP, I too like the big knob in the centre...somehow looks more "the business" and literally the "Control Centre", lol! But to each his (her) own, of course...
  
 I agree also with you, john57 and mordy - perhaps the vol. knob could be a bit more contrasting. I asked if an optional gold-plated one might be available from start-up...I think it could look stunning against all that black! But arranging a plater to do the job in the time frame is probably not feasible, more's the pity! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And I agree with you, ilm2, about that BIG transformer cover. Obviously, in the simulation there aren't all the curved edges there would be in real life, but even so it does look rather dominant, to say the least. So I passed on your comments re. breaking it up somehow.
  
 And, Lorspeaker, as mordy said there should be plenty of room for those PsVanes...I would certainly hope so, 'cos they'll be the first things to go into the new baby, followed quickly by my GEC 6AS7Gs...assessment of the stock set-up will have to wait a wee while, I'm afraid!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Hope I've managed to cover most realistic areas OK, and that the Feliks guys act on a good few of them...why not ask for blood? They can only say sorry, no can do...but let's all hope and pray they see sense and realise that these things are VERY important in a competitive market..._after_ component, build and SOUND quality of course...
  
 Anyway, I await with eager anticipation Lukasz's reply, and as it looks like the poor fellow has to fit in email replies close to midnight, it might be a long(ish) wait, lol.
 Needless to say, I shall pass on any info at the VERY earliest...
  
 Any further comments/views are most certainly welcome...


----------



## hypnos1

Have just twigged why I like the basic projected look of the 'Elise'...reminds me of some really nice Naim Audio equipment. If the build quality can match (or _nearly_) that of the Naim - and I have a feeling it probably will - then I think we _will_ be seeing a real giant-killer...Roll on end-October. (Mind you, if we keep throwing them off track it'll probably be more like end-Nov. lol!!).
  
 BFN
  
 CJ


----------



## hypnos1

jamiemcc said:


> Looks interesting I am also in the headphone out on the front panel club after going through several new connectors which have become damaged and a amp that was on one occasion very nearly pulled of its shelf by a snagged cable the cable must be able to pull out cleanly in case of such a event.


 
  
 Yes indeed...your point re. what happens if you tug the cable hard is a good one. That on top of the stress placed on the wire at the plug edge, not to mention the whole thing "sprouting" out of the top of the amp makes this positioning totally unfathomable in my book - and everyone else's it looks like!!
  


nic rhodes said:


> I like the unstated looks, and it being called Ekise significantly helps my chances of buying one. It is the wifes middle name!


 
  
 Methinks we're all going to need as much help as possible when trying to justify yet _another_ piece of equipment in the house, lol! (Especially a row of headphone amps ...). But I think this one will merit pulling out ALL the stops 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> Yes indeed...your point re. what happens if you tug the cable hard is a good one. That on top of the stress placed on the wire at the plug edge, not to mention the whole thing "sprouting" out of the top of the amp makes this positioning totally unfathomable in my book - and everyone else's it looks like!!
> 
> 
> Methinks we're all going to need as much help as possible when trying to justify yet _another_ piece of equipment in the house, lol! (Especially a row of headphone amps ...). But I think this one will merit pulling out ALL the stops
> ...


 
 But before that it needs to prove itself


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> But before that it needs to prove itself


 
  
 Ah, M...there's the rub - it must be bought and tried in order to 'prove itself', lol! Someone or, rather, -people have to be pioneers (guinea pigs!)....feeling brave, mon ami? OF COURSE you are!!...And hopefully so are others...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Mind you, I wouldn't blame you for waiting to see how I find it  compared to my LDMKIV SE, complete with C3gSs and GEC 6AS7Gs (as if you didn't know already!)...


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> Ah, M...there's the rub - it must be bought and tried in order to 'prove itself', lol! Someone or, rather, -people have to be pioneers (guinea pigs!)....feeling brave, mon ami? OF COURSE you are!!...And hopefully so are others...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Im brave but not rich lol. Will Feliks  loan you this amp when its finished or will you have to buy it to test it . They certainely will post pictures of the insides i would guess.We will see soon enough.


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Im brave but not rich lol. Will Feliks  loan you this amp when its finished or will you have to buy it to test it . They certainely will post pictures of the insides i would guess.We will see soon enough.


 
  
 Actually, M, I reckon they ought to _give _me one, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but I (try to) live in the real world, so that's _not_ gonna happen methinks!  No, I'll be 'first reserved' for receiving one...and given that I've encouraged them to invest what must be a good deal of time and money in this venture, I'm lucky they don't send me an 'R&D' bill!!
  
 I will certainly try to glean photos of the innards from them - so long as I don't get done for industrial espionage!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps. Looks like they're still digesting the various comments/suggestions from all you guys I heaped on them yesterday...poor things! (If nothing else, they MUST surely reposition that HP jack...everything crossed...).


----------



## hypnos1

*                                                                                        LATEST NEWS FLASH!!!*
  
 And this one I am sure most of you (if not all!) will really appreciate...
  
 After what appears to have been quite a heated battle on the part of Lukasz at Feliks-Audio, I have just received confirmation that they respect our collective opinion and have *AGREED TO REPOSITION THE HEADPHONE JACK - TO THE FRONT*. Given the stage they were at, right down to suppliers even, I can well understand the heated exchanges (in the quest to keep the front panel as neat as possible, Lukasz has even changed the jack to be used, for example!).
  
*PLUS*...they have re-designed the panel to also incorporate a power light, and will calibrate the volume knob.
  
 Having one big toroidal transformer obviously precludes any kind of 'splitting', but he is certain the end result will not look quite so 'overpowering' (my words).
  
 For us to have had such an influence in the design of this new model - especially even at this late stage - I find quite incredible, and all thanks must go to Lukasz (and his team) for respecting our opinions/wishes (even if some _are_ fairly clear to US, lol!).
  
 All I can say is GRREAAT! And also WELL DONE for posting your comments so promptly - I am sure the outcome would not have been so welcoming if there had been even just a few days' delay in delivering these missiles to them, lol!!
  
 I, for one, am absolutely over the moon with their response, and will surely sleep more soundly tonight...not to mention having a smile on my face when I write that cheque/give my credit card number - it's not often the smile is there at such a moment!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## john57

I wonder why the big fuss was to put the headphone jack on top was. Was it cheaper for them? Glad they change their mind but it is not the only tube headphone amp to put the jack on top. Decware comes to mind on this. What is the new jack like?


----------



## geetarman49

i agree .. with the vol knob on the front panel, it doesn't make sense to have top-mounted hp jack.  having said that, consideration should be given to ensuring that the product is still end-user maintainable.  with tube amps, it's not a matter of if, but when, you will need to access the guts --- in this case, the pcb, in order to check components, voltages, etc.
  
 i recently went through a very trying experience with an all tube amp (single driver, single pwr tube) wherein 4 front panel screws had to be removed, 5 4 topside screws (5th screw covered by topside xfmr cover ... had to locate matching screw on the pcb to release) and multiple pwr connections disconnected.  even then, despite careful handling, removal & reinsertion of the pcb resulted in 3 solder joint breaks, one after the other.  my level of frustration went through the roof (with only my bp pills keeping me from blowing a gasket!) but i persevered and finished the job at hand ... result ... fantastic, with curved brown base osram (gec) 6as7g and 5751 windmill getter.
  
 so, front-panel hp jack ... but ensure pcb is still easily accessible/removable for maintainability.
  
 <edit> looks like positive outcome by the time it took for me to compose & post this.


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> WOW!Looks really clean looking.
> I personally prefer the volume Knob off centre and the HP Jack on the faceplate(I hate my CRACK having all of the  connections on top but then i'am after the sound not the looks) and i would like to see a separate transformer covers if it have two transformers or something like a split looks for the transformer cover.But then again this is just me.
> I like the name too "ELISE".
> 
> ...


 
  
  


lorspeaker said:


> great name...ELISE.
> 
> i prefer the headfone jack on the frontplate...less strain on the jack.
> 
> will there be enuf space to accomodate PSvane CV181 cokebottle type of tubes  on the 6sn7 slots ?


 
  
  


john57 said:


> Same here, the headphone jack on front with the volume control on the other end.


 
  
  


mordy said:


> Would like the volume knob to be a contrasting color and also have some kind of calibration markings, on the knob or case or both. The headphone jack has to be on the front panel. There should be ample space between sockets to roll coke bottle size tubes. Where is the "on" indicator light?
> 
> Another nice idea would be to supply adapters so that you can roll different tubes with pinouts other than the stock sockets.
> 
> Don't know if they will have problems with the suggested name. Here is a Lotus Elise:


 
  
  


jamiemcc said:


> Looks interesting I am also in the headphone out on the front panel club after going through several new connectors which have become damaged and a amp that was on one occasion very nearly pulled of its shelf by a snagged cable the cable must be able to pull out cleanly in case of such a event.


 
  
  


mikelap said:


> I like it its simple but headphone jack must be on the front panel  i like big volume knob in the middle like my Burson Conductor i also put a bigger knob on my Littledot MK3 and i find it looks great One thing also i hope the case will be  stirdy something that feels solid . Maybe not like wa2 but i would like it if it was . i am very interested in this amp think ill wait a bit and see how it comes out .


 
  
 Hi y'all...don't know if you've seen the *GOOD NEWS* yet, but everyone's horror at the HP's positioning (including mine!) has managed to encourage the Feliks guys to see the error of their ways, lol!...once again I thank you for your prompt feedback - without it I think we would have lost the day...and am sure I'm not the only one who would have been put off big time. Mind you, at the end of the day there are more important things that need to be right, and where it really counts I think they will deliver VERY big time...
  
 And mordy, that was real eagle-eyed of you to notice no power light or volume calibrations...WELL DONE! (Methinks they were looking to be TOO neat and minimalist - we need both form AND function, n'est-ce pas?!).
  
 Anyway, it is real encouraging that they not only respect the views of us here at head-fi, but are prepared to ACT on them - especially at this late stage. This is no mean accomplishment and deserves our collective thanks and gratitude to Lukasz and his team...which I have already sent on all our behalf...
  
 ps. As I thought, these missiles will delay production by about 2 weeks...a VERY small price to pay, methinks! I, for one, am not complaining 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 pps... john57 - don't know yet what make of HP jack or what it looks like, but we can be sure it will NOT be 'cheap 'n nasty'!!


----------



## hypnos1

geetarman49 said:


> i agree .. with the vol knob on the front panel, it doesn't make sense to have top-mounted hp jack.  having said that, consideration should be given to ensuring that the product is still end-user maintainable.  with tube amps, it's not a matter of if, but when, you will need to access the guts --- in this case, the pcb, in order to check components, voltages, etc.
> 
> i recently went through a very trying experience with an all tube amp (single driver, single pwr tube) wherein 4 front panel screws had to be removed, 5 4 topside screws (5th screw covered by topside xfmr cover ... had to locate matching screw on the pcb to release) and multiple pwr connections disconnected.  even then, despite careful handling, removal & reinsertion of the pcb resulted in 3 solder joint breaks, one after the other.  my level of frustration went through the roof (with only my bp pills keeping me from blowing a gasket!) but i persevered and finished the job at hand ... result ... fantastic, with curved brown base osram (gec) 6as7g and 5751 windmill getter.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi g49.
  
 Yes, VERY positive outcome indeed. Have no idea just how easy it'll be to 'get inside' - but let's hope it won't be _too_ inaccessible!


----------



## mordy

Hi H 1,
  
 Will this headphone amp also function as a preamp in a speaker system?
  
 What about supplying plug in adapters for tube rolling, either as part of the package or as an option? For example, substituting 5687 tubes instead of the 6SN7 tubes as drivers?


----------



## tjw321

mordy said:


> ...
> 
> What about supplying plug in adapters for tube rolling, either as part of the package or as an option? For example, substituting 5687 tubes instead of the 6SN7 tubes as drivers?


 
 Brilliant idea


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi H 1,
> 
> Will this headphone amp also function as a preamp in a speaker system?
> 
> What about supplying plug in adapters for tube rolling, either as part of the package or as an option? For example, substituting 5687 tubes instead of the 6SN7 tubes as drivers?


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 Yep, there is preamp out, complete with protection circuit for direct-coupled amps...handy!
  
 As for adapters, sounds like a great idea for US, lol, but how do they decide just _which_ other tubes to cater for? Everyone has their own preferences. It would have to be much further down the road I suspect, and only with a good deal of demand for the same tubes, no? Certainly an option for them to consider later, for sure...but hey, let the poor guys get over the current missile attack!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps. On closer inspection of one of the close-up pics, there ARE calibration marks on the front panel for the volume knob - just not very clear! Presumably they are going to make it more visible, with some on the knob itself...


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Hi H 1,
> 
> Will this headphone amp also function as a preamp in a speaker system?
> 
> What about supplying plug in adapters for tube rolling, either as part of the package or as an option? For example, substituting 5687 tubes instead of the 6SN7 tubes as drivers?


----------



## JazzVinyl

Speaking of Tube Rolling adapters...
  
 If Felikis could make adapters....and get them to USA customers...much faster than the current source...
  
 They could sell a bunch of 'em!
  
 .
 .


----------



## mordy

Hi Mikelap,
  
 Is this what u mean?


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Hi Mikelap,
> 
> Is this what u mean?


 
 Ya something like that.     
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




      And by the way that is a nice one reminds me  of the one  my father had at the store, when i worked there as a kid  .


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Quote: 





hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > WOW!Looks really clean looking.
> ...


 
 You guys realized no need for a power indicator right?It already have 4 pointing up and it's visible in all directions/angles


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> You guys realized no need for a power indicator right?It already have 4 pointing up and it's visible in all directions/angles


 
  
 GOOD POINT, ilm2!....Ah well, at least it's encouraged them to put in a "nice-looking power indicator light", which should 'pretty' it up a bit lol!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(I can just imagine the look on the designer's face when Lukasz hit him with our suggestions...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




!!!). We don't know how lucky we are, methinks!...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > You guys realized no need for a power indicator right?It already have 4 pointing up and it's visible in all directions/angles
> ...


 
  And i hope it's not a bright LED or you/we guys are going to end up covering that indicator some of them are bright.MY LD's power indicator are covered i hate that blue LED maybe because i'am usually listening in the dark room all the lights are off.I can relate to the designer's reactions when he/she was slapped with another plan while the work is nearly done usually my reaction was What is wrong with these people sometimes i want to throw some tools at my boss.


----------



## mordy

The reason that I asked for an indicator light is that my LD amp is sitting on a shelf on an equipment rack and sitting in my listening chair I can't always see the glow of the tubes. Some tubes don't have much of a glow at all. Agree that the indicator light shouldn't be too bright which is irritating, even when the lights are on.
  
 I have a backup drive on my desk. The indicator light is so bright that I had to cover it up with a smiley sticker from one of my grandchildren.


----------



## gibosi

The Elise certainly does look like it will be a great little amp. But since I am more of a tinkerer and tube roller than an audiophile, the fact that it requires two drivers is a non-starter for me. I have too many single drivers, some quite rare and often expensive, and the thought that I would have to try to find matches for these tubes in order to enjoy them stops me cold. But it is great to see the enthusiasm here, and I sincerely hope it lives up to everyone's expectations.


----------



## mordy

Hi G,
  
 If you have two different driver tubes that sound similar, nothing prevents you from using them as a pair. IMHO you can only hear a difference when they are very dissimilar or vary a lot in how loud they play. Sometimes two different tubes will complement each other and enhance the sound as well.
  
 With separate voltage regulators you can run two tubes on different voltages as well. - not a problem.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi G,
> 
> If you have two different driver tubes that sound similar, nothing prevents you from using them as a pair. IMHO you can only hear a difference when they are very dissimilar or vary a lot in how loud they play. Sometimes two different tubes will complement each other and enhance the sound as well.
> 
> With separate voltage regulators you can run two tubes on different voltages as well. - not a problem.


 
  


gibosi said:


> The Elise certainly does look like it will be a great little amp. But since I am more of a tinkerer and tube roller than an audiophile, the fact that it requires two drivers is a non-starter for me. I have too many single drivers, some quite rare and often expensive, and the thought that I would have to try to find matches for these tubes in order to enjoy them stops me cold. But it is great to see the enthusiasm here, and I sincerely hope it lives up to everyone's expectations.


 
  
 Hi gibosi.
  
 Pity then us poor things with the LD MKIII/IV/SE! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...but mordy does have a point...
  


mordy said:


> Hi G,
> 
> If you have two different driver tubes that sound similar, nothing prevents you from using them as a pair. IMHO you can only hear a difference when they are very dissimilar or vary a lot in how loud they play. Sometimes two different tubes will complement each other and enhance the sound as well.
> 
> With separate voltage regulators you can run two tubes on different voltages as well. - not a problem.


 
  
 I certainly agree with you, m - I found a mix of PsVane CV181-TII and a 7N7 much better than 2 of each. Mind you, these were as powers, but I suppose the same could be true used as drivers...


----------



## gibosi

Hey guys, give me a break! Just because it doesn't pose a problem for you doesn't mean that it is right for me.
  
 Case in point, I just picked up a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT with black glass, square top mica and flat black plates for a great price. Now mind you this is a totally different tube than the Tung-Sol Mouse Ears or the coveted 6SN7GT/VT-231 with black glass, round or oval top mica and round plates (BGRP). In my experience, this is much more rare. So how does it sound? If I have a two driver amp, I can't say... Sure I can put another Tung-Sol in the adjacent socket, but then, how can I answer the most obvious question?  How does it sound vis-a-vis the BGRP?
  
 So if I am going to drop a significant amount of money to purchase a new amp, it must work for me. And in fact, for my purposes, two drivers is actually worse than my tricked out Little Dot with one driver. I want something better. After thinking about what I want and need out of my next amp for the past year, I am now convinced that one driver and two powers is the best configuration for me. To each his own.....
  
 However, I sincerely have no desire to rain on your parade so these will be my last words on this subject.....
  
 Cheers


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> Hey guys, give me a break! Just because it doesn't pose a problem for you doesn't mean that it is right for me.
> 
> Case in point, I just picked up a Tung-Sol 6SN7GT with black glass, square top mica and flat black plates for a great price. Now mind you this is a totally different tube than the Tung-Sol Mouse Ears or the coveted 6SN7GT/VT-231 with black glass, round or oval top mica and round plates (BGRP). In my experience, this is much more rare. So how does it sound? If I have a two driver amp, I can't say... Sure I can put another Tung-Sol in the adjacent socket, but then, how can I answer the most obvious question?  How does it sound vis-a-vis the BGRP?
> 
> ...


 
  
 The question you should have asked is just how does two 6SN7s help drive low impedance
 headphones. When it is the 6AS7s that drive the headphones.


----------



## gibosi

2359glenn said:


> The question you should have asked is just how does two 6SN7s help drive low impedance
> headphones. When it is the 6AS7s that drive the headphones.


 
  
 I wonder about that too.... It is very hard for me to understand how anything in front of the 6AS7's would make any difference at all. I suggested to them (through Hypnos1), that allowing for the use of 6336's is a proven way to drive low Z headphones, but instead, they elected to use two 6SN7's as drivers.....


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > The question you should have asked is just how does two 6SN7s help drive low impedance
> ...


 

 It would need to have an expensive power transformer to power 6336s
 Just the filaments of two 6336s draw 10amps.  I think it is being designed to be a low cost amp.


----------



## gibosi

2359glenn said:


> It would need to have an expensive power transformer to power 6336s
> Just the filaments of two 6336s draw 10amps.  I think it is being designed to be a low cost amp.


 
  
 I knew that 6336's would essentially require doubling the size of the transformer, from 5-plus amps to 10-plus amps, but I didn't realize that doing so would be significantly more expensive. Since doubling the size of the transformer is more expensive than I thought, I understand now why they decided against including the ability to run 6336's in their base configuration. I think they are designing this amp to compete with the Little Dot 9, Crack, DarkVoice and similar amps.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> The question you should have asked is just how does two 6SN7s help drive low impedance
> headphones. When it is the 6AS7s that drive the headphones.


 
  
 Hi 2359glenn.
  
 That certainly has been racking our brains for a while - the Feliks guys went to the trouble of trying both configurations (there's keen for you!) and found it DID help using 2 - in their particular set-up. And for them to go ahead with this option, without fear of adversely affecting final price, means there must be _something_ positive happening _somewhere_?!
  


gibosi said:


> I knew that 6336's would essentially require doubling the size of the transformer, from 5-plus amps to 10-plus amps, but I didn't realize that doing so would be significantly more expensive. Since doubling the size of the transformer is more expensive than I thought, I understand now why they decided against including the ability to run 6336's in their base configuration. I think they are designing this amp to compete with the Little Dot 9, Crack, DarkVoice and similar amps.


 
  
 Yes indeed, g, that's precisely the market segment aimed at...and to hopefully outgun, lol!


----------



## MIKELAP

Started to stock up on 6sn7 tubes  doesnt look good  for my wallet hopefully the Feliks amp will deliver .I like  that 4 tube combination if not theres always the Darvoice 336SE .Any other amp use that combination of tubes


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Started to stock up on 6sn7 tubes  doesnt look good  for my wallet hopefully the Feliks amp will deliver .I like  that 4 tube combination if not theres always the Darvoice 336SE .Any other amp use that combination of tubes


 
  
 Hi MIKELAP.
  
 Glad you're getting 'in readiness' - you KNOW you deserve it lol! As for the wallet, have no fear...it'll look after itself...(I wish!!) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But don't forget the GEC 6AS7Gs (A1834/CV2523) - you have TWO wallets, don't you?!
  
 From the feedback I'm getting via Lukasz, their dedication to quality bodes well for a very smooth delivery - for _us_ at least...but possibly painful for _them!! _


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> Hi MIKELAP.
> 
> Glad you're getting 'in readiness' - you KNOW you deserve it lol! As for the wallet, have no fear...it'll look after itself...(I wish!!)
> 
> ...


 
 I deserve it alright damm you Ebay lol.. As for my wallet well i only have one unfortunately, just bought 3 pairs of 5998 so its not talking to me anymore maybe in a month or so all will be ok 
  
  
 .If the interiour is nicely done like the 336se with decent quality parts thats all i would need because i love the look.


----------



## mordy

Hi All,
  
 I am totally unfamiliar with amplifier design, so I may be asking the wrong question: For my LD MKIII I am running 5A worth of power tubes. To do this I need a 15A voltage regulator that can be bought for around $13 or less and a 15A 430W 12V PC power supply that can be bought for $30 or less. In comparison to the price of a smaller transformer for say 2.5A, is the increment to handle 10A so much more expensive?
  
 It seems to me that I should be able to run two 5A 6336 tubes with my set-up, but everybody tells me not to try it since the internal wiring/resistors in my LD may not hold up. In any case, I have been running 2 x 2.5A tubes many hours without any problems (added external fans for additional cooling).


----------



## 2359glenn

mordy said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am totally unfamiliar with amplifier design, so I may be asking the wrong question: For my LD MKIII I am running 5A worth of power tubes. To do this I need a 15A voltage regulator that can be bought for around $13 or less and a 15A 430W 12V PC power supply that can be bought for $30 or less. In comparison to the price of a smaller transformer for say 2.5A, is the increment to handle 10A so much more expensive?
> 
> It seems to me that I should be able to run two 5A 6336 tubes with my set-up, but everybody tells me not to try it since the internal wiring/resistors in my LD may not hold up. In any case, I have been running 2 x 2.5A tubes many hours without any problems (added external fans for additional cooling).


 

 If your filament power supply can supply 15 amps it should be OK. The 6336 acts like a 6AS7 without
 the cathode resistor being changed.
 The problem with cheep PC power supplies is that they produce allot of high frequency noise.  You cant
 here it but it can make the amp sound harsh.  So the expensive transformer is a better choice


----------



## john57

What Glenn is saying it that cheap light power supplies are the switching type which can produce hash on the line which can drift down to the audible range.  A full transformer type is much heavier. You need the original transformer for the B+ voltage as I would presumed.


----------



## mordy

Hi 2359 glenn and john57,
  
 In my post I just listed regular prices - the PS was bought on sale for 1/2 price. Before I connected it I used a very inexpensive laptop PS, but as soon as I connected the much more beefy PS power supply I heard a clear improvement in the sound with tighter bass and overall better performance. Don't know if a $60 PS qualifies as a cheap transformer or not....
  
 Glenn - if I understand you correctly I should be able to run two 5A power tubes in the LD MKIII without worry. Can i expect an improvement in sound over 6080/6AS7 tubes? I use the LD as a preamp for a 110W ss amp and listen through speakers.
  
 I have tried a number of power tubes and find the most satisfactory combination of bass, slam and attack with 6080 power tubes together with a 5687 driver.


----------



## john57

Mordy,
  
 For me I have a large stockpile of 6AS7/6080 tubes and I like to stick with that power tube type. Lately I have been enjoying my IFI iDSD micro which is one on the best DAC's I ever heard. I won it during the IFI skunkworks design contest. I was one of the original IFI Octa adopters and have my own personal IFI concierge and IFI will treat me at dinner at the RMAF.


----------



## mordy

Hi john57,
  
 Sifted through the acronyms with the help of Google. Would such a DAC improve on my tube preamp -ss amp set-up? I put my CD collection of early jazz on iTunes and play through my PC. At the present I am very happy with the sound - warm, detailed, expansive and superb bass and great treble.


----------



## 2359glenn

mordy said:


> Hi 2359 glenn and john57,
> 
> In my post I just listed regular prices - the PS was bought on sale for 1/2 price. Before I connected it I used a very inexpensive laptop PS, but as soon as I connected the much more beefy PS power supply I heard a clear improvement in the sound with tighter bass and overall better performance. Don't know if a $60 PS qualifies as a cheap transformer or not....
> 
> ...


 

 Does the 6336 sound better then a 6AS7   No it will react the same in the same circuit but don't sound better.
 Maybe worse no sense in using it unless you are trying to drive low impedance phones.


----------



## john57

mordy said:


> Hi john57,
> 
> Sifted through the acronyms with the help of Google. Would such a DAC improve on my tube preamp -ss amp set-up? I put my CD collection of early jazz on iTunes and play through my PC. At the present I am very happy with the sound - warm, detailed, expansive and superb bass and great treble.


 
 Mordy,
  
 The iDSD micro allows me to playback DSD(one bit) files I have on hand and it is one of the more flexible DAC's around.  You gave me the impression that you found your "audio nirvana at the end of the rainbow" Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> Does the 6336 sound better then a 6AS7   No it will react the same in the same circuit but don't sound better.
> Maybe worse no sense in using it unless you are trying to drive low impedance phones.


 
  
 Thanks 2359glenn for your views on the 6336...was wondering about that tube myself.
  
 By the way, glad you rate the 6N13S...anywhere near my GEC CV2523s?!


----------



## mordy

Hi 2359glenn and john57,
  
 Many thanks for your information and knowledge. For the time being I am very happy with what I have, but I am open to improvements.
  
 If good is good, isn't better better?
  
 The past four years with the LD MKIII  have led to the discovery of better and better sound, but I am not ready to pronounce having reached the "end game" yet. Let's see what the C3g tubes can offer.....Or the Feliks Elise.....


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi 2359glenn and john57,
> 
> Many thanks for your information and knowledge. For the time being I am very happy with what I have, but I am open to improvements.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 What about C3g PLUS Elise?...Dare I even _think_ about the kind of rolling we've been doing in our LD's? The thought of adapting TWO C3gs per driver fills me somewhat with dread! (Sshhh...don't tell the Feliks guys, lol!!)...


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Hi 2359glenn and john57,
> ...


 

 One C3g per driver will be enough they are capable of putting out 1.5 watts by themselves.
 Have them add 2 loctal sockets.


----------



## mordy

Tried to get a better deal on the adapters, asking if they had seconds or blemished ones that function well. The answer:
  
Hello,

 Sorry, we can only make this kind now,

 Thanks&Best Regards,​  
 Hey h1, you got to tell Lukasz to space the 6SN7 sockets far enough apart to allow for this:
  
  




 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-7193-7193-to-6SN7-CV6-CV6-to-6SN7-Vacuum-tube-adapter-socket-converter-06-/290988937446?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43c04ad0e6
  
 The possibilities are endless, just a question of money......


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Tried to get a better deal on the adapters, asking if they had seconds or blemished ones that function well. The answer:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> ...


----------



## mordy

Hi glenn 2359,
  
 If you can use two pentodes instead of two dual triodes as drivers, does that mean that one side of the dual triode in a 6SN7 is not used in the Feliks amp?


----------



## 2359glenn

No it probably is but the C3g has much more drive power then even 2 6SN7 sections
 even with the C3g wired in triode.


----------



## Lorspeaker

mordy said:


> Tried to get a better deal on the adapters, asking if they had seconds or blemished ones that function well. The answer:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  
 think i know where the inspiration is from...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Or if they can add four 7 pin socket for 6HM5 tubes..........LOL


----------



## i luvmusic 2

lorspeaker said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Tried to get a better deal on the adapters, asking if they had seconds or blemished ones that function well. The answer:
> ...


 
 This give me an idea to make a adapters for 6HM5 to 6SN7's and i will call it "T I T S" adapter.


----------



## Rossliew

If the above is plug and play with our LDs (without the need for external heater PS), i will order it in a snap!


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> No it probably is but the C3g has much more drive power then even 2 6SN7 sections
> even with the C3g wired in triode.


 
  
 Hi 2359glenn.
  
 So then, if both 6SN7 triodes are used, the single anode of the C3g can feed the two circuits?...Certainly would make my job MUCH easier!
  
 Cheers.


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> So then, if both 6SN7 triodes are used, the single anode of the C3g can feed the two?...Certainly would make my job MUCH easier!


 
  
 Glenn's suggestion was to ask Feliks to add two loctal sockets. Doing so would give you the same arrangement you have now in your LD, that is, one C3g per side.
  
 Otherwise, you have to use the existing two 6SN7 sockets. It is my understanding that as each of these sockets is wired to use both triodes in a 6SN7, you will have to use two C3g's per socket....  for a total of four..... but have no idea how well that would work though....


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Glenn's suggestion was to ask Feliks to add two loctal sockets. Doing so would give you the same arrangement you have now in your LD, that is, one C3g per side.
> 
> Otherwise, you have to use the existing two 6SN7 sockets. It is my understanding that as each of these sockets is wired to use both triodes in a 6SN7, you will have to use two C3g's per socket....  for a total of four..... but have no idea how well that would work though....


 
  
 Hi g.
  
 Given the heated discussions Lukasz had with his team to action the last alterations at this stage, I'm afraid I'm not even going there, lol!!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I'm hoping Glenn will say I could wire the C3g's single cathode and anode to BOTH triode connections in the socket!...is that not at all feasible?...


----------



## john57

I  am surprised that the discussions got heated in the first place. After all it is the end users that will be providing the company the profit or salaries.


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi g.
> 
> Given the heated discussions Lukasz had with his team to action the last alterations at this stage, I'm afraid I'm not even going there, lol!!..
> 
> ...


 
  
 We will have to wait for Glenn to comment, as I certainly do not know......
  


john57 said:


> I  am surprised that the discussions got heated in the first place. After all it is the end users that will be providing the company the profit or salaries.


 
  
 The sooner they can finalize the design, the sooner they can ship. And with Hypnos1 and others wanting it _*NOW!*_, they are trying to get a finished product out the door as soon as possible. So it makes perfect sense to me that there would be considerable internal resistance from the production team to any last minute requests and/or changes.


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> hypnos1 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi g.
> ...


 

 It could be possable if they have the two halfs of the 6SN7 in series one driving the other.
 To hook the grid of the C3g to where the grid of the first 1/2 of the 6SN7, and the plate
 and cathode to the 2nd 1/2. This would also phase it correctly like it only used 1/2 of the 6SN7
 for each channel. + sound better then a 6SN7 too.


----------



## hypnos1

john57 said:


> I  am surprised that the discussions got heated in the first place. After all it is the end users that will be providing the company the profit or salaries.


 
  
 Aah that things could be that simple when bringing a new product to market, j57...we can only _guess_ at just what is involved...especially given the time frame... gibosi's words are spot on, methinks! There is more than just one person who has to be convinced/cajoled at _any_ stage of production - I sure wouldn't want Lukasz's job, lol!!


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> It could be possable if they have the two halfs of the 6SN7 in series one driving the other.
> To hook the grid of the C3g to where the grid of the first 1/2 of the 6SN7, and the plate
> and cathode to the 2nd 1/2. This would also phase it correctly like it only used 1/2 of the 6SN7
> for each channel. + sound better then a 6SN7 too.


 
  
 Hi 2359glenn.
  
 Many thanks for your expert advice - much appreciated...now I need to try and prise their R&D secrets out of them! (Do you think the double-C3g  would be a viable option at all, or is that _too_ much gain?).
  
  
 Just look at me, folks...haven't even got my hands on the darned thing and already I'm talking about possible-2yr warranty-invalidation!!...Let this be a timely warning to those contemplating tube-rolling - this pastime can be _totally_ addictive, and drive you (almost) _totally_ insane! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > It could be possable if they have the two halfs of the 6SN7 in series one driving the other.
> ...


 
 A C3g will have about the same gain as two 1/2s of a 6SN7
 If there is a will there is a way.
 C3 tubes are strong enough to drive headphones by them selves
 Yamamoto has the HA-3 headphone amp and it just uses two C3m tubes
 The C3m is similar but has a 20 volt heater.
 I was going to build a amp with two C3m tubes have the output transformers.
 But no time have to many amps to build.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> A C3g will have about the same gain as two 1/2s of a 6SN7
> If there is a will there is a way.
> C3 tubes are strong enough to drive headphones by them selves
> Yamamoto has the HA-3 headphone amp and it just uses two C3m tubes
> ...


 
  
 Thx 2359glenn....this is obviously something for the backburner - but I so _love_ my C3gSs! I shall just be optimistic and hope that the Elise design and quality will help my PsVane CV181T-IIs (or my VT231s) at least approach them - I have to be realistic about these matters, lol! And, of course, the variety of 6SN7s will provide a greater flexibility in fine-tuning one's own particular preferences...hence my original suggestion to the Feliks-Audio guys to use them.
  
 Glad to hear you're being kept nice and busy!...


----------



## hypnos1

*A RECOMMENDATION* to all those seriously interested in the 'Elise'...if you don't already have your favourite 6SN7s and/or 6AS7G/6080s, I strongly suggest you do your homework now and scour the relevant threads, so you can be keeping your eyes on the tubes that are about - perhaps following mordy's advice a while back on how to go about hunting down the best deals.
  
 There is plenty of good information/advice/guidance on threads such as '6SN7 tube addicts'; 'The Reference 6SN7 thread'; 'For 6AS7G rollers here', for example. Plus more at head-fi here, or on the net via Google search, of course - you can't get _too_ many different peoples' opinions, in my book!
  
 Mid-Nov. seems SO far away...patience, patience


----------



## MIKELAP

Well i just couldnt wait got myself a little Woo Audio 3 hard to pass up a proven amp.


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Well i just couldnt wait got myself a little Woo Audio 3 hard to pass up a proven amp.


 
  


mikelap said:


> Well i just couldnt wait got myself a little Woo Audio 3 hard to pass up a proven amp.


 
  
 Oh ye of little patience, m!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Must admit she looks a nice cutie...but I myself am not going to just 1 power tube, after what 2 6AS7Gs do for my LD MKIVSE - and certainly not for those with low-impedance cans, I should think, lol!
  
 And what drivers can you play with in her?...
  
 Whatever, I wish you both all the very best!!


----------



## Rossliew

mikelap said:


> Well i just couldnt wait got myself a little Woo Audio 3 hard to pass up a proven amp.


 
  
 Please share your impressions with the HD800


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> Oh ye of little patience, m!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Having choices is always fun for 2- 6AS7 got the  WA2 for low impedance got the Conductor and as for drivers with the WA3 you can use  6DJ8 types and with adapters 6SN7 and i am still using my trusty MK3 for the rest , so i guess im covered


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Having choices is always fun for 2- 6AS7 got the  WA2 for low impedance got the Conductor and as for drivers with the WA3 you can use  6DJ8 types and with adapters 6SN7 and i am still using my trusty MK3 for the rest , so i guess im covered


 
  
 You certainly do seem to have all bases covered, M...lucky fellow!!
  
 But there's _always_ room for one more, lol!...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

mikelap said:


> Well i just couldnt wait got myself a little Woo Audio 3 hard to pass up a proven amp.


 
 Congrats and Enjoy!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I started working on my SEX and i stopped,there are things that got me confused...........


----------



## Lorspeaker

I like small footprints like the woo3... Lack of real estate space next to my sofa.
Doubt I will miss much since I already hv a DV336se..
A belief tat will save my $$


----------



## MIKELAP

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Congrats and Enjoy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Like an electric discharge .maybe .Kidding


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> I like small footprints like the woo3... Lack of real estate space next to my sofa.
> Doubt I will miss much since I already hv a DV336se..
> A belief tat will save my $$


 
  
 Hey, L...have you still not gotten that bigger coffee table? Or is it a bigger _room_ you need, lol?!


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> Hey, L...have you still not gotten that bigger coffee table? Or is it a bigger _room_ you need, lol?!


 
 If there's a will there a way that's my moddo lol.


----------



## Lorspeaker

i had been listening to 3 6SN7s for the last 2 to 3 hours...
 PSVane CV181Tii...Tungsol 6SN7GTB...and a russian 6N8S
  
 Surprisingly the russian sounded almost like a younger sister to the PSVANE,
 ermm...85 to 90 % close? textured n spacious..v nice inexpensive tube.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> i had been listening to 3 6SN7s for the last 2 to 3 hours...
> PSVane CV181Tii...Tungsol 6SN7GTB...and a russian 6N8S
> 
> Surprisingly the russian sounded almost like a younger sister to the PSVANE,
> ermm...85 to 90 % close? textured n spacious..v nice inexpensive tube.


 
  
 Looks like there could well be another good option there, L...keep hunting!


----------



## hypnos1

While we're waiting for the imminent birth, folks, I asked Lukasz for some photos of the kind of units they create so we can get a bit more of an idea of their quality work, in addition to their Espressivo.
  
 So, as a teaser, here's one really nice-looking (speaker only) piece of equipment :
  

  

  

  
 Sure would love to hear what this baby can do...kick my nice Vincent SS amp right into touch I would imagine!! I want one already, lol!
  
 (For anyone interested in knowing more about this amp, so as I don't go falling foul of any rules, Lukasz is offering a special deal to us forum people...just contact them via the Feliks-Audio website).


----------



## Lorspeaker

i am just using a cheap cambridge ss amp for my dusty speakers..zzz 
  
 This tube amp has a slick thin bottom...with woods at the side? 
 Must have weighed a bomb. 
  
 8 filaments to burn...$$ouchhh.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> i am just using a cheap cambridge ss amp for my dusty speakers..zzz
> 
> This tube amp has a slick thin bottom...with woods at the side?
> Must have weighed a bomb.
> ...


 
  
 Yeah, but what a glow in a darkened room, eh?! (And for an 8-tuber, the price is quite unbelievable - under $2K).


----------



## Oskari

lorspeaker said:


> 8 filaments to burn...$$ouchhh.


 
  

http://www.jadis-electronics.com/en/ja500-20.php


----------



## MIKELAP

oskari said:


> http://www.jadis-electronics.com/en/ja500-20.php


----------



## Oskari

mikelap said:


>


 
  

http://www.atma-sphere.com/Products/#MA-3


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> http://www.jadis-electronics.com/en/ja500-20.php


 
  
 OUCH!, OUCH!!, OUCH!!!...


----------



## Lorspeaker

i just placed an order for the MA3 for my next BBQ session...
 gonna roast the lamb leg real good.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> While we're waiting for the imminent birth, folks, I asked Lukasz for some photos of the kind of units they create so we can get a bit more of an idea of their quality work, in addition to their Espressivo.
> 
> So, as a teaser, here's one really nice-looking (speaker only) piece of equipment :
> 
> ...


 
 That is the kind of Tranny(split) cover i want to see for the new amp.


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> That is the kind of Tranny(split) cover i want to see for the new amp.


 
  
 Hi ilm2.
  
 A bit tricky when it's just ONE big toroidal, lol!!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > That is the kind of Tranny(split) cover i want to see for the new amp.
> ...


 
 They can fake it if they want to,Install a dummy one beside it i'am sure that those covers are not that expensive.
 Unless they are milling them from a solid block of aluminum but i don't think so not gonna happen for that amp.
 If they put a shorter dummy cover(enough room to take two tubes side by side) beside the transformer and leaved it empty and put a hole on the chassis under that dummy cover you already have a place to install a socket for your C3g,s or other tubes no need for you to buy an adapter just buy two sockets and install them on top then route the wires in the hole under the dummy cover.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I know you love your C3g's.............


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> They can fake it if they want to,Install a dummy one beside it i'am sure that those covers are not that expensive.
> Unless they are milling them from a solid block of aluminum but i don't think so not gonna happen for that amp.


 
  
 Methinks there's already enough real estate at the back, no?...for me, anyway!...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > They can fake it if they want to,Install a dummy one beside it i'am sure that those covers are not that expensive.
> ...


 
 I'am just kidding don't worry about it..........


----------



## i luvmusic 2

BTW i was ready to do some wiring for my SEX only to find out that all of the transformers that i painted was all scratched up.SoB i need to redo all of them,No SEX for me yet.


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I'am just kidding don't worry about it..........


 
  
 You nearly had me going there, you SoB!!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


i luvmusic 2 said:


> BTW i was ready to do some wiring for my SEX only to find out that all of the transformers that i painted was all scratched up.SoB i need to redo all of them,No SEX for me yet.


 
  
 None of these trials for me, mon ami...abstinence has its advantages, lol!.(Apart from C3g adapters, that is - but sshhh...I have confessed my (and others') illicit love for them to Lukasz, and he _might_ just consider looking into the possibility once the first production unit is ready. Now there's _really _keen for you!! I truly believe this would take the Elise to a whole new level - for those who, like me, have discovered (and love) this tube. But first things first...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## MIKELAP

Well its a nogo for the WA3 next !


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > I'am just kidding don't worry about it..........
> ...


 
 LOL.......


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I'am just kidding don't worry about it..........


 
  
 Hey ilm2, looks like your 'kidding' isn't so far off the mark after all!!..I notice Glenn is treating one of our lucky members to a pair of loctal sockets in his amp so as to enable use of my beloved C3g...would you believe it?!... Lucky member indeed, lol!...($$$??)...
  
 So  Lukasz is gonna have to take my suggestion _real__ly_ seriously now, methinks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Ah well, at least the adapter option would help keep down the base unit cost for those not interested in the C3g...
  
 (Nice to know my regard for this tube is not misplaced...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > I'am just kidding don't worry about it..........
> ...


 

 Gibosi is also getting a 6.3-12.6-25.2 volt switch so he can use a 6SN7 or 12SN7 or 25SN7/1633/13D1 for the driver.
 I have been using the C3g as driver for years in my 300B amps.  This will be the first I am using in a OTL . This is the best sounding tube without going through
 the hassle of using direct heated triodes.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> Gibosi is also getting a 6.3-12.6-25.2 volt switch so he can use a 6SN7 or 12SN7 or 25SN7/1633/13D1 for the driver.
> I have been using the C3g as driver for years in my 300B amps.  This will be the first I am using in a OTL . This is the best sounding tube without going through
> the hassle of using direct heated triodes.


 
  
 Hi 2359glenn.
  
 That makes g DOUBLY lucky!...But if anyone deserves it, he certainly does...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 For that tube to still be supreme speaks volumes for the guys (geniuses!) who put it together, no?


----------



## i luvmusic 2

> >
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 NICE........


----------



## Lorspeaker

searched for a pig from the web... so this is the fuss...


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> searched for a pig from the web... so this is the fuss...


 
  
 And here they are gracing my LDMKIV SE (with my own-made adapters, lol)   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...ps. minus their metal cases!(As in your pic).


----------



## gibosi

I rather like them in their metal cases.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> I rather like them in their metal cases.


 
  
 Aaw, g, should we not display fully the genius's work of art, lol?!...Tantamount to putting a fire screen in front of the Mona Lisa!!!...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> screen


 
  
 That's the operative word.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> That's the operative word.


 
  
 Aye, indeed O...glad to say I personally have never encountered any problems exposing 'em to the fire, lol!!...


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > I rather like them in their metal cases.
> ...


 

 They are on there as a shield to reduce hum and noise pickup. And are grounded through
 the center pin. Don't you think the engineers put them on for a reason.
 Why remove them ? Is this about sound or looks?


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> They are on there as a shield to reduce hum and noise pickup. And are grounded through
> the center pin. Don't you think the engineers put them on for a reason.
> Why remove them ? Is this about sound or looks?


 
  
 I hear you 2359glenn...for me it's about BOTH! All I have ever had in the background is DEATHLY SILENCE...Obviously a lot depends on factors in the vicinity - electrical equipment, wireless equipment, cable/mains quality etc. etc.(not to mention the quality of the amp itself!). Some people do seem to suffer more than others, so perhaps the unsheathed option is not for _everyone_ but I'm sure I'm not the only one who can manage to provide as optimum an environment as possible...and have the best of both worlds?!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And perhaps the engineers' reason was that the original purpose of these tubes would have placed them in _less-than-optimal_ conditions?...


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > They are on there as a shield to reduce hum and noise pickup. And are grounded through
> ...


 

 The original purpose was for the telephone company.  Such good tubes to amplify such a crappy signal.
 But meant for perfection and long life.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> The original purpose was for the telephone company.  Such good tubes to amplify such a crappy signal.
> But meant for perfection and long life.


 
  
 I'll drink to that!...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

SEX is done............


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> I'll drink to that!...


 
  
 Perhaps join you I will.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Perhaps join you I will.


 
  
 Aaah...need I say Oskari? - you are clearly a man of VERY good taste...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers!


----------



## mordy

U could buy 100 Little Dot MKIII amps for the cost of one of these....Or 48 Feliks Elise amps.....


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> U could buy 100 Little Dot MKIII amps for the cost of one of these....Or 48 Feliks Elise amps.....


 
  
 Hi m...do we have a millionaire in our midst?!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 ps. NOW I know where all the money goes that you save in your tube hunting, lol!!


----------



## Lorspeaker

those are my mouthwash...  
  
  
  
  
  
  
 ....was dreaming.


----------



## lukeap69

lorspeaker said:


> those are my mouthwash...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I wonder what's your breakfast.


----------



## mordy

Here is a 12 liter bottle for 195k - price includes free airfare to France to visit the vinery.
  
 http://www.eater.com/2013/10/16/6351391/195000-buys-the-worlds-most-expensive-bottle-of-wine


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Here is a 12 liter bottle for 195k - price includes free airfare to France to visit the vinery.
> 
> http://www.eater.com/2013/10/16/6351391/195000-buys-the-worlds-most-expensive-bottle-of-wine
> 
> ...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Aaah...need I say Oskari? - you are clearly a man of VERY good taste...


 
  
 I'm also cheap. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Had to get stronger medicine (bad ankle). Still rather cheap, especially compared to mordy who has gone completely Gakuon.


----------



## mordy

Hi Oskari,
  
 Hope your ankle feels better - here is a picture of my favorite Scotch:
  




  
 While we are waiting for the new wunderkind amplifier on the block, I just wanted to provide a little entertainment with the help of the Google search engine.
  
 I also searched for the most expensive vacuum tubes on Ebay, but could only find tubes for a couple of thousand dollars. Last year I found a pair of WE 300B tubes that went for 13,000.......


----------



## mordy

Hi,
  
 Speaking of the two prospective 6SN7 driver tubes for the Elise amp, it is still unclear to me how they are going to be used. Glenn suggested that they will be wired in series with each other.
  
 For about 18 months I used a pair of 6N6P-IR tubes as power tubes in my Little Dot MKIII. Afterwards I switched to 6SN7 tubes (and later to 6AS7/6080 tubes) with better results.
  
 At one point I decided to take one of the IR tubes and use this dual triode as a driver. I was surprised to hear one channel noticeable weaker than the other, and got the same result when I used the second one. (When used as power tubes I could not hear any difference in volume.)
  
 Can anybody explain this?


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Hope your ankle feels better - here is a picture of my favorite Scotch:


 
  
 This is clearly much more enjoyable (and effective) than ibuprofen. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks. I may have to try that.
  
 P.S. Do check Kondo Gakuon prices...


----------



## Lorspeaker

mordy said:


> Hi,
> 
> Speaking of the two prospective 6SN7 driver tubes for the Elise amp, it is still unclear to me how they are going to be used. Glenn suggested that they will be wired in series with each other.
> 
> ...


 
  
 one of your power tubes hasnt got its breakfast?


----------



## Lorspeaker

oooooooooooo.........


----------



## MIKELAP

lorspeaker said:


> oooooooooooo.........


 
 Wooooood  !!!!!!


----------



## geetarman49

lorspeaker said:


> oooooooooooo.........


 
  
 i like wood as much as anyone else, but i can't get over the tombstone look of this one ... next thing you know, they'll have the undertaker & paul bearer as being their spokespeople ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## MIKELAP

geetarman49 said:


> i like wood as much as anyone else, but i can't get over the tombstone look of this one ... next thing you know, they'll have the undertaker & paul bearer as being their spokespeople ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The sides are nice dont care to much for the clock look in the back .


----------



## Lorspeaker

Should design my tombstone with something like this...
 with the tubes glowing..
 anyone visiting me can fire it up...
 put on the headfone thats hung to the side..
 and i can share whatever music i am hearing in heaven.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

lorspeaker said:


> Should design my tombstone with something like this...
> with the tubes glowing..
> anyone visiting me can fire it up...
> put on the headfone thats hung to the side..
> and i can share whatever music i am hearing in heaven.


 
 If you're going there..........


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Oh schiit i'am kidding.(Pardon me)


----------



## mordy

If U need a monument, maybe this will do?
  
  
 Here is a picture of one channel of a HUGE vacuum tube amplifier:
  









  
  
 If U have 50-60K to spend, maybe U want to contact these guys:
  




  
 Here is the link to this horn speaker - amp wretched excess:
  
 http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/vsac03/vsac_3.html
  
 There are more pictures on the site. Unfortunately, they needed to photoshop the tube glow to do it justice....


----------



## lukeap69

That will be very handy as it can double as Christmas lantern.


----------



## punit

mordy said:


> If U have 50-60K to spend, maybe U want to contact these guys:


 
 You forgot the more important part " & are single and planning to remain single"


----------



## meraias

this thread got me hot and bothered! ...


----------



## Lorspeaker

Apart from producing light n heat...do they make music?


----------



## lukeap69

lorspeaker said:


> Apart from producing light n heat...do they make music?


 

 That would be a bonus.


----------



## meraias

lukeap69 said:


> That would be a bonus.


 
  
  


lorspeaker said:


> Apart from producing light n heat...do they make music?


 
  
 like typical head-fires would say " it really depends on the source..."


----------



## meraias

but, the seller will need to include a complementary sun glasses to go with that amp...


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I have drunk both of those DRC wines, though the Montrachet is too old now. It pays to know people with money or in the trade!


----------



## mordy

_Apart from producing light n heat...do they make music?_
  
 That thought crossed my mind as well... However, I assume that they make music, since those horn speakers are so massive that they must have been brought there for a reason.


----------



## mordy

Hi 2359glenn,
  
 You mention that the C3g is a best sounding tube. How would you compare it to the 5687 dual triode?


----------



## mordy

Hi 2359glenn,
  
 Another question that you may be able to answer: The 5687 can be run in 6V or 12V mode. Is there a difference in sound depending on the voltage?


----------



## Johnnysound

gibosi said:


> When using a pre-amp and an amp with separate volume controls, it is my understanding that it is best to turn the volume all the way up on one of the units, which completely eliminates resistance in the signal path, and then control the level using the other unit.
> 
> While not a tube amp, I use an Audio-gd Fun as a DAC/pre-amp in front of the LD. I turn the volume on the LD all the way up and control the level using the Audio-gd. Sounds good to me.


 
 HI G., that way you are using the LD as a tube power amp controlled by an SS pre amp.  I suspect that  the sound of the preamp will be too prominent in the mix, so I do the opposite, bypass my SS preamp and run the LD from the DAC analog outputs (fixed of course),  controlling level with the LD.  I feel that this way the sound is more tubes and less SS...and  It also sounds good.   BTW, no news of the Feliks prototype.  Does one exists ?


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> HI G., that way you are using the LD as a tube power amp controlled by an SS pre amp.  I suspect that  the sound of the preamp will be too prominent in the mix, so I do the opposite, bypass my SS preamp and run the LD from the DAC analog outputs (fixed of course),  controlling level with the LD.  I feel that this way the sound is more tubes and less SS...and  It also sounds good.   BTW, no news of the Feliks prototype.  Does one exists ?


 
  
 Hi J.
  
 Fear not, things are well under way...no bad news from Poland - _yet!! _(would probably have been just about ready had we not thrown those last-minute missiles at them, lol!). The projected date is now mid-Nov - _hopefully!!..._Patience is a virtue, so they say...wish I had a bit more of it!


----------



## gibosi

johnnysound said:


> HI G., that way you are using the LD as a tube power amp controlled by an SS pre amp.  I suspect that  the sound of the preamp will be too prominent in the mix, so I do the opposite, bypass my SS preamp and run the LD from the DAC analog outputs (fixed of course),  controlling level with the LD.  I feel that this way the sound is more tubes and less SS...and  It also sounds good.


 
  
 I tried both ways, straight out of the DAC and out of the preamp, and while I cannot remember the details, at that time, I felt that it sounded better using the preamp. Also, my LD 1+ is the cheapest one they make and not surprisingly, the quality of the pot is not all that good compared to that on the Audio-gd. And further, the LD's volume knob is small and slippery, whereas the volume knob on the Audio-gd is quite large, operates very smoothly and allows minute adjustments to the sound. So for me, using the Audio-gd as a preamp works very well for me. But of course, YMMV.


----------



## Johnnysound

gibosi said:


> I tried both ways, straight out of the DAC and out of the preamp, and while I cannot remember the details, at that time, I felt that it sounded better using the preamp. Also, my LD 1+ is the cheapest one they make and not surprisingly, the quality of the pot is not all that good compared to that on the Audio-gd. And further, the LD's volume knob is small and slippery, whereas the volume knob on the Audio-gd is quite large, operates very smoothly and allows minute adjustments to the sound. So for me, using the Audio-gd as a preamp works very well for me. But of course, YMMV.


 
 Indeed, that Audio Gd looks like a really nice piece of gear,  and in their product page THEY do recommend  using the DAC output thru the analog preamp stage,  not only for the benefit of level control, but for better performance of the DAC (¡)  this is a bit unusual design, I must say.    I thought it was a digital volume control (it is not), something to avoid at all costs in my experience, by setting it at maximum and leaving it that way...


----------



## Acapella11

Although, I haven't tested 6SN7 or 6AS7G/6080 tubes in my LD MKIII, the C3G(S) do very well indeed. The prospected amp sounds very interesting as a xmas treat 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Just to bridge the time, you can add a Macallan to the Oban and Talisker. More sherry notes there, very

 nice. Aberlour, particularly as cask srength, is a fine choice too and for yummy specialities, I suggest Cadenhead's distributor options.


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Although, I haven't tested 6SN7 or 6AS7G/6080 tubes in my LD MKIII, the C3G(S) do very well indeed. The prospected amp sounds very interesting as a xmas treat
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi A11.
  
 Have never really taken to this kind of tipple, but you certainly make it sound tempting, lol! (My go-to spirit - if I could afford it! - would be Hennessy XO 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Glad you find the 'Elise' project interesting...better start saving right now! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(would love to hear your impressions through the HD800s)...I'm placing high hopes on this baby. And I can only hope they do follow up on my suggestion to see if the C3g can be used, and make an adapter accordingly (if they don't, you can be sure _I_ will be giving it a go! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Any idea for the Price range?


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Any idea for the Price range?


 
  
 Hi ilm2.
  
 The target price was originally below $500, and I haven't as yet had any unwelcome news on that front...hopefully they don't encounter any unexpected rise in their material costs. Will keep y'all posted the minute I get an update on near-completion and price confirmation.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > Any idea for the Price range?
> ...


 
 OK THANK YOU!


----------



## Johnnysound

hypnos1 said:


> Hi ilm2.
> 
> The target price was originally below $500, and I haven't as yet had any unwelcome news on that front...hopefully they don't encounter any unexpected rise in their material costs. Will keep y'all posted the minute I get an update on near-completion and price confirmation.


 
 Hi H1,
  
 Below 500 ? good news.  I think if they keep the "Espressivo" format, with similar parts as possible,  costs will stay relatively low. As I am guessing, this one will need a bigger (better ?)  transformer to feed the power-hungry 6AS7/6080s.  The tubes are not that expensive,  I understand are NOS Russian ones...and I am glad they opted for dual 6SN7s (6H8Cs) as drivers...


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> Hi H1,
> 
> Below 500 ? good news.  I think if they keep the "Espressivo" format, with similar parts as possible,  costs will stay relatively low. As I am guessing, this one will need a bigger (better ?)  transformer to feed the power-hungry 6AS7/6080s.  The tubes are not that expensive,  I understand are NOS Russian ones...and I am glad they opted for dual 6SN7s (6H8Cs) as drivers...


 
 Hi J.
  
 Good news indeed - hopefully!
  
 Yes, I had assumed they might be able to modify the "E" set-up somewhat to keep costs down, but when Lukasz said this is NOT just an upgraded "E", perhaps they really do have their work cut out, lol!  And yes, he said it's a BIG toroidal (which can't be _too_ cheap, I would imagine...).
  
 I also am glad there are two drivers...


----------



## lukeap69

Although it was mentioned that this will work with the low Z cans, is this really intended to match high Z cans like the Senns and Beyers?


----------



## Skylab

Any OTL amp based on the 6AS7 is going to work better with high impedance cans.


----------



## lukeap69

skylab said:


> Any OTL amp based on the 6AS7 is going to work better with high impedance cans.



That's what I thought. Thanks for confirming.


----------



## hypnos1

skylab said:


> Any OTL amp based on the 6AS7 is going to work better with high impedance cans.


 
  
 Thanks for your input Skylab...and that's good news for my HD650s!
  
 It's going to be very interesting to see just how well _their_ use of 2 6SN7s actually helps the low Zs...their initial trials sounded positive (even if there isn't a truly 'scientific' explanation), and were down to a _subjective_ impression. I will be asking for (and hopefully getting!) an honest confirmation of the amp's performance low Z compared to high, once off the production line. But then, of course, we shall have to hope those with low Zs give the amp a try and post their findings...(lucky ones have BOTH!...).


----------



## Skylab

So here's the thing...it isn't a question of if it works well with low Z cans, but WHICH low Z cans. 

The output impedance of an OTL amp is determined by the output tube. This will mean in the case of a 6AS7 based amp that the output impedance of the amp is going to be higher than most headphones people consider low Z. How that affects the sound of any given pair of headphones will depend on its impedance curve (remembering that headphone impedance typically varies with frequency, with the notable exception of some orthos). 

As for the 6SN7's, I cannot see how the choice of INPUT tube is going to impact the OUTPUT impedance of the amp.

None of this is to say this won't be a great amp - I have heard many OTL amps I loved, even with low Z cans. But it's best to really understand what's going on so expectations are properly set.


----------



## hypnos1

skylab said:


> So here's the thing...it isn't a question of if it works well with low Z cans, but WHICH low Z cans.
> 
> The output impedance of an OTL amp is determined by the output tube. This will mean in the case of a 6AS7 based amp that the output impedance of the amp is going to be higher than most headphones people consider low Z. How that affects the sound of any given pair of headphones will depend on its impedance curve (remembering that headphone impedance typically varies with frequency, with the notable exception of some orthos).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Indeed, Skylab...the proof of the pudding, of course, will be in the hearing - and expectations must be commensurate with the price point which, given the (rather ambitious!) target, I have a feeling they will be exceeded by a good margin...time will tell...(and not _too_ much more time, hopefully!).


----------



## i luvmusic 2

You know it takes time to wait for any parts coming from CHINADA so prepare to wait longer......


----------



## JazzVinyl

Is there any hint of a delivery timeline, hypnos1?

You get the first prototype, I take it?


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> Is there any hint of a delivery timeline, hypnos1?
> 
> You get the first prototype, I take it?


 
  
 Hi JV.
  
 Will be emailing Lukasz today to try and get an idea of how things are looking on the completion front...and yes, I've been promised the first 220/240V unit...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...(do I hear the words "guinea pig", lol?!...this is the first time I don't mind being called a 'hog'!!).
  
 I shall, of course, post the second I get any more info.


----------



## hypnos1

As promised, Lukasz's reply is a very encouraging one (thankfully!).
  
 Surprisingly, he feels the price should still be around the $500 mark...good news indeed. And the first unit should be ready not far off the mid-Nov target...there being delays from the aluminium plate manufacturer, due to that last-minute HP socket location change.
  
 So all in all, no unpleasant surprises, it would appear...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

So $500 + shipping + Taxes = I'am out.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I will look into Glenn's amp in the Future.


----------



## MIKELAP

Is that  $500.00 US. customs is a killer +exchange


----------



## Lorspeaker

This amp should be competing with these amps in terms of performance/price i guess?
  
 http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/2010-New-Darkvoice-337-Tube-Headphone-Amp-amplifier-AMP-/120644870788   usd730.
  
 and the bigger Littledots?


----------



## lukeap69

Or the sexy looking La Figaro 339.


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> So $500 + shipping + Taxes = I'am out.


 
  
 Hi ilm2 and MIKELAP...yo... customs, taxes etc are a real b**mer - worldwide!
  
 But we have to look at this in context...as Lorspeaker says, this amp has to be compared with others of matching spec/quality - most costing a good bit more. I doubt whether anything comparable would be available locally for the same money, even given said daylight robbery, lol! (lucky are those who _can_ find such an animal 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...


----------



## Acapella11

Hi Hypnos1, just for curiosity, in which country are you located? 
And: Will Elise have an internal or possibly external 240/120V switch? 
The price tag reflects of course not only the quality of tubes but also capacitors, volume regulation and other internal components.


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Hi Hypnos1, just for curiosity, in which country are you located?
> And: Will Elise have an internal or possibly external 240/120V switch?
> The price tag reflects of course not only the quality of tubes but also capacitors, volume regulation and other internal components.


 
  
 Hi A11.
  
 Good ol' UK (must get something done about my 'profile', lol!).
  
 I have a feeling they will be two separate models for V...I shall check with Lukasz next time I email him (will give him a bit of a rest first, poor chap!).
  
 It sounds like they must be using pretty good quality components, because when discussing the 1 or 2 driver conundrum I suggested that if 2 were not warranted, could they use the cost saving on upgraded components, like the capacitors...his reply was that although not using "$80 capacitors", quality is high on their list. So yes, this has to be taken into account when considering the price point - which I personally think is VERY reasonable indeed...


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> And: Will Elise have an internal or possibly external 240/120V switch?


 
  
 Hi again A11...and everyone...
  
 As I thought, the first few units that are under way will be either one or the other. Further down the road they will re-design the transformer so as to have a choice (altered internally)...to do so now would delay things even further, which is the last thing they (and WE!) want, lol!
  
 The clock is ticking...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Hmmm i think i read this somewhere altering the transformer or switching for different voltage.
 Ah yes it's Gl3nn's amp for giboc.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 It's a nice option.......


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I'am hoping that i can still afford this amp by the time it is ready for shipping.


----------



## gibosi

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Hmmm i think i read this somewhere altering the transformer or switching for different voltage.
> Ah yes it's Gl3nn's amp for giboc.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 A 240/120 switch allows the amp to be used in many countries. For example, the US has 120 volt mains. The UK has 240 volt mains. The amp Glenn is making for me has a 6.3/12.6/25 switch to allow the use of tubes with either of these three different heater voltages.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

gibosi said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm i think i read this somewhere altering the transformer or switching for different voltage.
> ...


 
 That's what i meant lower taps not the mains,Sorry about that!
 hoping to give us an insight when you get your AMP,I'am considering Glenn's amp in the future.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Since i've experienced having a P2P wiring amps my future amp should be P2P wired i like having my fingers poking in between those wires.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi folks.
  
 Just a quick observation...given the amazing 6580 plus 'viewings' of this thread, there are obviously a good few interested parties following progress. And I'm sure a good number have positive opinions re this project that the Feliks-Audio guys have bent over backwards to try and please those fans of the 6SN7 and 6AS7G/6080.
  
 Lukasz has been more than gracious in the face of some negative slants, and it would be really nice to have a bit more input from those with _positive_ comments...both fellow members and non-member watchers/guests (why not join and give your views, lol?!)...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Rant over...


----------



## Synthax

What I can add, is that Feliks Audio gear is abslutely nohum, no buzz, no clicks. Even with very sensitive Beyerdynamic T70. It is very unique vor tube design. And to me the quality of made is much better than chineese corps. Feliks Audio do it on place, by hands, and quality control is hq.


----------



## hypnos1

synthax said:


> What I can add, is that Feliks Audio gear is abslutely nohum, no buzz, no clicks. Even with very sensitive Beyerdynamic T70. It is very unique vor tube design. And to me the quality of made is much better than chineese corps. Feliks Audio do it on place, by hands, and quality control is hq.


 
  
 AT LAST!...someone with first-hand experience of Feliks-Audio gear...many thanks Synthax (and from your posting history, obviously genuine! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). This bodes well for the Elise, methinks...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

YUP chinee made is made somewhere by foot.


----------



## hypnos1

Tick, tock...


----------



## Johnnysound

Quote:


synthax said:


> What I can add, is that Feliks Audio gear is abslutely nohum, no buzz, no clicks. Even with very sensitive Beyerdynamic T70. It is very unique vor tube design. And to me the quality of made is much better than chineese corps. Feliks Audio do it on place, by hands, and quality control is hq.


 


hypnos1 said:


> AT LAST!...someone with first-hand experience of Feliks-Audio gear...many thanks Synthax (and from your posting history, obviously genuine!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi H1,  I agree,  it is indeed very difficult to find any reviews of Feliks-Audio gear, save for one or two of the "E".  It would be nice to hear some opinions around the OTHER Feliks Audio gear.  It looks really well made and is  reasonably priced too  For example,  the "William" amp sells in Poland for around $925 plus shipping,  (the "E" for $279) and this amp can make a perfect companion for the "Elise" (¡¡).   I understand this model uses special hand made transformers.  Since Feliks-Audio sells direct for international customers, does somebody have a factory direct price list ??   To that,  we have to add the special discount for the lucky members of this forum ¡¡


----------



## hypnos1

I know this is not a very viable option for most, but I thought I might just tease with a spare NOS GEC CV2523(6AS7G) I was lucky enough to get here in the UK for not a stomach-churning figure!...This in readiness for the imminent arrival 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....Have you ever seen such a box/packaging for a tube? - seen here next to that for a Chatham 6AS7G...:
  

  
 Mind you, I can understand why they were so cossetted - they are one mighty tube, IMHO. They have transformed my lowly Little Dot MKIV SE beyond recognition...another reason why I am now REALLY itching to get my hands on the new amp - I can't even imagine what's in store, lol!
  
 I realise it's almost asking the impossible, but if ever you're lucky enough to come across a pair of these without going bankrupt (there are however, of course, tubes out there FAR more expensive), then snap them up real quick...you would not regret it.
  
 ps. Just make sure it's a reputable source, however...


----------



## Lorspeaker

whats the figure that didnt churn your tummy??


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> whats the figure that didnt churn your tummy??


 
  
 How does £60 (incl. shipping) sound to you, L?...Sorry to rub it in, lol!!


----------



## mordy

Hi Lorspeaker,
  
 Do u drive an old Cadillac? The number plate reads LORSBABY


----------



## Lorspeaker

cant see my cadillac LOL


----------



## hypnos1

Latest news from Poland...
  
 First the bad news...unfortunately ETA is now likely to be the end of the month - those alterations have caused more problems than anticipated, it would appear.
  
 But the good news is that Lukasz is obviously not accepting second-best, which is nice to know - no corner-cutting here. It just means trying harder to control the itch, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Ah well, as he says...this is a pioneer's lot, unfortunately (but will make the wait even _more_ worthwhile, I am sure...).
  
 On a more upbeat note, that lovely NOS GEC CV2523 I mentioned recently has me in somewhat of a quandary...in place of one of the (supposed) NOS tubes I got from Italy, I have gone from being just _totally_ blown away to UTTERLY...!!...Bass is now truly 'subterranean', but with no loss of detail or at the expense of other parts of the frequency response; there's more detail to the mids, again without adversely affecting treble - on the contrary, there is even more crispness to the upper frequencies and a note decay that has you eager for what is to follow. All with the same feeling of everything being just in the right place - vocals _and_ instruments - but now with even more cohesion and dynamism.
  
 What I can't quite understand is the _degree_ of difference...now this new tube has more burn-in time on it, the difference is not small. I have noticed this kind of thing when rolling many different drivers in my LD MKIV SE - no 2 tubes ever being TOTALLY identical - but never to the same degree with 2 similar power (output) tubes (especially as they are very likely to have come from the same factory)...I wonder if anyone else has found this in their rolling?...
  
 And this is not, I think, just down to greater output from the newer tube - there is no imbalance present...and so all I would say is we obviously can never be sure of the true properties of a tube (in our own particular set-up, of course) until repeated with more of the same.
  
 I finish this with music from the soundtrack to 'Gladiator' reverberating around my head and taking me to heights I have never experienced before in this wonderful hobby of ours...


----------



## JamieMcC

Those GEC CV2523 are rather special but you do also need the rest of the system to be of a pretty good level or you might consider them over rated and a expensive folly, good cans are essential to really appreciate just what they can do I initially listened with the HD650 and thought they sounded amazing, listening with the T1 & GEC there is just loads of nuance and micro detail  that the HD650 just completely miss, mids and vocal texturing particularly I find just sublime. 
  
 On tube burn in I have some WE 421a that I brought NOS and I really thought they where over hyped and a bit disappointed with them at first but once they had a few hours on them they improved dramatically but I think the GEC has the edge.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

While you are waiting I'am enjoying my SEX...........
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Just kidding.


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> While you are waiting I'am enjoying my SEX...........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ah, but the looong build-up can often be even more exciting, lol!!


----------



## hypnos1

jamiemcc said:


> Those GEC CV2523 are rather special but you do also need the rest of the system to be of a pretty good level or you might consider them over rated and a expensive folly, good cans are essential to really appreciate just what they can do I initially listened with the HD650 and thought they sounded amazing, listening with the T1 & GEC there is just loads of nuance and micro detail  that the HD650 just completely miss, mids and vocal texturing particularly I find just sublime.
> 
> On tube burn in I have some WE 421a that I brought NOS and I really thought they where over hyped and a bit disappointed with them at first but once they had a few hours on them they improved dramatically but I think the GEC has the edge.


 
  
 Ah, JMcC...the eternal dilemma - where does one spend the most on the hi-fi budget?!...
  
 You have certainly tempted me as regards the T1 - but is that an 'expensive folly', given they would be twice the price of the amp? (And even more than that compared to the HD650s?!).
 Or should it be the HD700...or, heaven forbid!, the _800_?
  
 Luckily, as regards the GECs, I was following initially gibosi's mantra and 'looking to the future' (ie the (near!) imminent arrival)...with the added bonus of the good chance they might just transform my modest Little Dot once again, in view of the rule-breaking results we have all achieved this past year over at the LDTAVTRollingGuide...and miracle of miracles, they DID take it to a whole new level - once again!
  
 Going back to headphones, there is an added dilemma...I am convinced the pure silver cable I am using has again pushed the 650s to new heights...just how much more 'bang-for-the-buck' am I going to get from the aforementioned upgrades?...Obviously, the only way to be sure is to try and find some way of testing before buying - easier said than done, sometimes!
  
 Often, this head-fi thing can create more of a head-_ACHE_, lol!!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > While you are waiting I'am enjoying my SEX...........
> ...


 
 Is it gonna be out this month?


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Is it gonna be out this month?


 
  
 The hope is for the end of the month...barring any more nasty surprises from the makers of the altered components. So I'm crossing everything I can find, lol!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

OH wow that get me excited.


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> You have certainly tempted me as regards the T1 - but is that an 'expensive folly', given they would be twice the price of the amp? (And even more than that compared to the HD650s?!).
> Or should it be the HD700...or, heaven forbid!, the _800_?


 
  
 I can recommend the T1 and the HD800. While the T1s give a larger stage, the treble is somewhat sharper/hotter. The HD800 is a bit more forward with actually a smoother (!) treble and deeper bass. Both are good headphones in my ears. My suggestion would be to buy the best headphone you can afford and of course - like. Then build the system up around it.


----------



## Lorspeaker

the LCD2.2 rosewood is a better buy...find an old used one.


----------



## mordy

In this month's Stereophile Magazine there is a good review of the Hifiman HE-400i planar magnetic headphones ($499). Sam Tellig feels that these cans are stiff competition to much more expensive ones. Does anybody have any experience with the HE-400i? (Different than the 400; priced the same as the 500.)


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> I can recommend the T1 and the HD800. While the T1s give a larger stage, the treble is somewhat sharper/hotter. The HD800 is a bit more forward with actually a smoother (!) treble and deeper bass. Both are good headphones in my ears. My suggestion would be to buy the best headphone you can afford and of course - like. Then build the system up around it.


 
  
  


lorspeaker said:


> the LCD2.2 rosewood is a better buy...find an old used one.


 
  
  


mordy said:


> In this month's Stereophile Magazine there is a good review of the Hifiman HE-400i planar magnetic headphones ($499). Sam Tellig feels that these cans are stiff competition to much more expensive ones. Does anybody have any experience with the HE-400i? (Different than the 400; priced the same as the 500.)


 
  
 Hey guys, you're all getting my head in a spin here...don't know which way to turn, lol!
  
 There seem to be so many 'ifs and buts' regarding all these cans, not to mention personal preference - as always!
  
 The T1 looks promising...Skylab, whose reviews I particularly admire, regarded them as the best of the dynamics (ahead of the HD800 even)...and yet there is a question mark in other quarters over treble response especially - depending on the amp signature.
  
 The LCD 2 looks even more promising (apart from the price!) - but only really to best advantage with non-OTL amps (again courtesy of Skylab).
  
 And as I simply cannot get on with closed 'phones, or afford electrostatics, this is obviously going to be a VERY difficult area for consideration... If only I had a big enough hi-fi shop nearby able to stock such a collection - AND let me try before buy!
  
 Ah well, much more research obviously needed...


----------



## Acapella11

mordy said:


> In this month's Stereophile Magazine there is a good review of the Hifiman HE-400i planar magnetic headphones ($499). Sam Tellig feels that these cans are stiff competition to much more expensive ones. Does anybody have any experience with the HE-400i? (Different than the 400; priced the same as the 500.)


 
  
 Mordy, the short story is, that I haven't tried the HE-400i. The longer, lol, is that I have listened to the HE-400 and own the HE-500. Even though the HE-500 sounds good with the LD MKIII, they are in my ears not the best match. The sound does not have quite the dynamic range it could have, the HE-500 are not driven adequately. Now, the HE-400i might be easier to drive but as far as I know, OTL-amps match better with dynamic drivers.
  
 I have after a while now been listening with my HE-500s to the LD MKIII with C3GS and 6H30P-DR tubes, that is the first time since I got the C3GS, and I must say, very nice indeed.


----------



## hypnos1

Hey guys...you (and others here at head-fi) have a lot to answer for!...have just treated myself to _another_ early Christmas present (the good lady will _not_ be amused...), namely a pair of new T1s... - at a reasonable price from la belle France, I just couldn't pass them by, lol!! (So much for further in-depth research 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..). I shall put my faith in Skylab and JamieMcC (who also likes 'em), and just hope to goodness the Elise manages to deliver controlled treble, as opposed to Acapella11's (and others') 'sharp/hot' occasional tendency.
  
 This hobby of ours is certainly turning into a wallet-emptier _par excellence!!_...(Mind you, I'm still a 'cheapskate' compared to many I suppose...).
  
 So now the itch has returned with a vengeance!..._Patience, patience..._


----------



## Nic Rhodes

T1s are great phones


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> Hey guys...you (and others here at head-fi) have a lot to answer for!...have just treated myself to _another_ early Christmas present (the good lady will _not_ be amused...), namely a pair of new T1s... - at a reasonable price from la belle France, I just couldn't pass them by, lol!! (So much for further in-depth research
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 It all depends who you talk to for my part i dont find for example the Senns HD800 hot on treble or bright best thing is always to test them out but its not always possible here anyways


----------



## JamieMcC

hypnos1 said:


> Hey guys...you (and others here at head-fi) have a lot to answer for!...have just treated myself to _another_ early Christmas present (the good lady will _not_ be amused...), namely a pair of new T1s... - at a reasonable price from la belle France, I just couldn't pass them by, lol!! (So much for further in-depth research
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Congratulations Colin 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and welcome to the club. On a similar note I try not to visit the "TURNTABLE SETUP Questions thread" as it often proves to be expensive, last time it was a Jico S.A.S. Super Analogue diamond tipped stylus with boron cantilever! While I might not of thought I actually needed however the difference of something you need a magnifying glass to see made was quiet astonishing.


----------



## hypnos1

Thanks Nic and JMcC for those encouraging words...can't wait to hear what they can deliver - just like I can't wait for...????? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Gonna dream sweet dreams tonight... (like right now!).
  
 Cheers...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> Hey guys...you (and others here at head-fi) have a lot to answer for!...have just treated myself to _another_ early Christmas present (the good lady will _not_ be amused...), namely a pair of new T1s... - at a reasonable price from la belle France, I just couldn't pass them by, lol!! (So much for further in-depth research
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Congrats!All you need now is the BH Mainline......


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Congrats!All you need now is the BH Mainline......


 
  
 Hey ilm2...you want that I get banished to the chicken shed (OK...just _shed!_), as opposed to the dog house? Have you no mercy?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > Congrats!All you need now is the BH Mainline......
> ...


 
 You need a high Performance Engine to drive a High performance Car.....


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> You need a high Performance Engine to drive a High performance Car.....


 
  
 Er...Elise??!!...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > You need a high Performance Engine to drive a High performance Car.....
> ...


 
 I don't want to spark a flame but i'am thinking more like this.


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I don't want to spark a flame but i'am thinking more like this.


 
  
 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!


----------



## Johnnysound

hypnos1 said:


> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!


 
  
 Mine is  like that one, but silver metallic...just joking (or dreaming).     The one in the photo  looks very much like a limited edition GT3  twin turbo or a variant of it,  a friend of mine alllowed me to drive his stunning car (a red one)  just a few blocks,  a real 560+ hp  monster.   Not enough road in the neighborhood to test  such a rocket,  you just can't push it even a little.   I understand only a few were produced,  my friend sold his 10 year used car (in pristine condition) to a collector for a sum well above 150K...  
  
 Returning to the "Elise", In my learning curve about tubes I took good note of the consensus in this forum  about  the sonic superiority of the 6SN7 (or C3G ?) as input / drivers combined with the 6AS7G/6080 as powers for a really good  HP amplifier.     My first surprise was to find that the highest performance with the LDMKIII was obtained with  power tube mods that required  external PS, regulators, etc,  so you can use the 12.5 V 6AS7G/6080  family.  Now, how a POWER tube can be so important in SQ ?  It is supossed to just amplify the signal provided by the input tubes.  This is basic tube theory, but in my search I discovered that the LD3 is an SEPP OTL design,  and this is far from basic.   Remember that I am learning, and the first thing I noticed is that in this kind of circuit both input and output tubes on each side work electrically in tandem,  and the input tubes act somehow as drivers at the same time, so BOTH tubes should be equally important in SQ,  and "vertical matching" of both type  of tubes looks important ¡    
  
 You will like this one H1:   Just read that the lowest measured distortion of all power tubes is obtained from DHTs like the 300b, or 2A3,  and the  6AS7G is an evolution of the latter.  However, to reach this all of them  need  a good MU, high current, low distortion driver.  In other words, a very good partner.  The consensus is that a triode should be used to drive another triode. This is why the C3g and C3m are used in very high end amps to drive 300bs or similar, and  perhaps this is why the    6AS7G sounds so good in the LD3, partnered with the C3g.  I must say that the 5687 is also highly recommended as a driver for that tubes... I look like an expert ¡¡ (LOL)


----------



## mordy

Hi Johnnysound,
  
 What you are quoting about the synergy between power tubes and driver tubes in the LD MKIII family of amps is something that we learned empirically. I have such a set up that I can play music using the C3g tubes as drivers with the heaters shut off on the 6080 tubes used as power tubes.
  
 The signal is too weak to drive my headphones through the LD, but my ss amp gets enough signal that I can play through speakers at satisfying levels. Turning on the heaters and activating the power tubes instantly shows the effect they have on the total sound, and it is not subtle at all.
  
 The sound becomes much more full bodied and hefty from being much more flat and less engaging, and especially the bass improves tremendously.
  
 With all due respect, the 6AS7/6080 tubes are designed for 6.3V operation (not 12.5V), but they draw 2.5A of current which is too much for the transformer in the LD amp to handle. The workaround is to use an external power source and a 15A voltage regulator for the heaters. The reason why a 5A voltage regulator isn't enough (2 x 2.5A) is that the tubes are said to draw much more current on start up, and you need a safe margin in order not to blow up the regulator.
  
 All I can say is that the wonderful design of the Little Dot lends itself to modifications that result in performance way beyond the stock configuration. Wouldn't be surprised if the MKIII with Cg3S drivers and 6080 power tubes rivals amps costing $1200 or more.....


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Hi Johnnysound,
> 
> What you are quoting about the synergy between power tubes and driver tubes in the LD MKIII family of amps is something that we learned empirically. I have such a set up that I can play music using the C3g tubes as drivers with the heaters shut off on the 6080 tubes used as power tubes.
> 
> ...


 
  i was comparing  my LD MK3 with 6SN7GTB chrome tops as power tubes with C3GS  to my WA2 and before i used these tubes i tought the LD was a bit thin sounding compared to the WA2 but not anymore this is the best ive heard the LD sound .Nice


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> i was comparing  my LD MK3 with 6SN7GTB chrome tops as power tubes with C3GS  to my WA2 and before i used these tubes i tought the LD was a bit thin sounding compared to the WA2 but not anymore this is the best ive heard the LD sound .Nice


 
  
 Well, MIKELAP, that is another real endorsement of the C3g(S)...I am so glad I haven't been peddling snake oil all this time, lol!


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> Mine is  like that one, but silver metallic...just joking (or dreaming).     The one in the photo  looks very much like a limited edition GT3  twin turbo or a variant of it,  a friend of mine alllowed me to drive his stunning car (a red one)  just a few blocks,  a real 560+ hp  monster.   Not enough road in the neighborhood to test  such a rocket,  you just can't push it even a little.   I understand only a few were produced,  my friend sold his 10 year used car (in pristine condition) to a collector for a sum well above 150K...
> 
> Returning to the "Elise", In my learning curve about tubes I took good note of the consensus in this forum  about  the sonic superiority of the 6SN7 (or C3G ?) as input / drivers combined with the 6AS7G/6080 as powers for a really good  HP amplifier.     My first surprise was to find that the highest performance with the LDMKIII was obtained with  power tube mods that required  external PS, regulators, etc,  so you can use the 12.5 V 6AS7G/6080  family.  Now, how a POWER tube can be so important in SQ ?  It is supossed to just amplify the signal provided by the input tubes.  This is basic tube theory, but in my search I discovered that the LD3 is an SEPP OTL design,  and this is far from basic.   Remember that I am learning, and the first thing I noticed is that in this kind of circuit both input and output tubes on each side work electrically in tandem,  and the input tubes act somehow as drivers at the same time, so BOTH tubes should be equally important in SQ,  and "vertical matching" of both type  of tubes looks important ¡
> 
> You will like this one H1:   Just read that the lowest measured distortion of all power tubes is obtained from DHTs like the 300b, or 2A3,  and the  6AS7G is an evolution of the latter.  However, to reach this all of them  need  a good MU, high current, low distortion driver.  In other words, a very good partner.  The consensus is that a triode should be used to drive another triode. This is why the C3g and C3m are used in very high end amps to drive 300bs or similar, and  perhaps this is why the    6AS7G sounds so good in the LD3, partnered with the C3g.  I must say that the 5687 is also highly recommended as a driver for that tubes... I look like an expert ¡¡ (LOL)


 
  
 Hi J.
  
 I like your reasoning as to why the pairing works so well in our LDs...and which is why 1... I'm really looking forward to seeing how the use of the 6SN7 in the Elise compares, and 2... I really hope the Feliks guys do look into testing re possible use of the C3g.


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> Hey guys...you (and others here at head-fi) have a lot to answer for!...have just treated myself to _another_ early Christmas present (the good lady will _not_ be amused...), namely a pair of new T1s... - at a reasonable price from la belle France, I just couldn't pass them by, lol!! (So much for further in-depth research :rolleyes: ..). I shall put my faith in Skylab and JamieMcC (who also likes 'em), and just hope to goodness the Elise manages to deliver controlled treble, as opposed to Acapella11's (and others') 'sharp/hot' occasional tendency.
> 
> This hobby of ours is certainly turning into a wallet-emptier _par excellence!!_...(Mind you, I'm still a 'cheapskate' compared to many I suppose...).
> 
> So now the itch has returned with a vengeance!..._Patience, patience..._





Good choice hypnos1! Congrats, I am sure the T1 will be fine with nice tube amps and this will be a great platform for your future head-fi adventures


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> Well, MIKELAP, that is another real endorsement of the C3g(S)...I am so glad I haven't been peddling snake oil all this time, lol!


 
  
 C3GS are great tubes. Period.


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Good choice hypnos1! Congrats, I sure the T1 will be fine with nice tube amps and this will you a great platform for your future head-fi adventures


 
  
 (Belated!) thanks, A11...sure is going to be (hopefully) a nice Christmas - (only if I spoil a certain someone BIG time, though!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 And as for "future head-fi adventures", I'm afraid for the sake of "future domestic harmony" I daren't even go there...YET!...
  
 Sobs...


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> (Belated!) thanks, A11...sure is going to be (hopefully) a nice Christmas - (only if I spoil a certain someone BIG time, though!!  ).
> 
> And as for "future head-fi adventures", I'm afraid for the sake of "future domestic harmony" I daren't even go there...YET!...
> 
> Sobs...




Sorry for my wording mistakes, it was in a rush from the phone, lol. 
Yes, it is all part of the deal,  but I am sure you will arrange yourself a nice little surprise parcel when you feel like e it.


----------



## hypnos1

Looks like we're getting there, folks!
  
 Lukasz should be receiving his re-commissioned anodized front panels next Tuesday - let's hope this time they meet his demanding standards! And all being well, it won't be _too_ long now before I can get my sticky fingers on her...sorry, Elise...I meant cotton-gloved fingers, lol!
  
 I did mention to him about the occasional treble 'sharpness' the Beyer T1s can exhibit, and whether film capacitors as opposed to electrolytics might help (and be an option) - which one of our members found helped his BH amp/T1 pairing.
  
 As I anticipated, the cost would push the price up well beyond the projected level, but I was comforted by his assurance of the high quality of electrolytics used, and that films of equivalent quality would be $90 to $100 EACH, and being larger would also of course require alterations inside the amp to accommodate them. In other words, NOT a viable option - at our price point!... And I'm quite sure there are other factors within the topology/component quality that will also affect treble response, so I shall just keep fingers AND toes crossed that the T1s behave themselves!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

So for example i have the Elise and mod it with those MUNDORF CAPS it will be looking something like the one in the picture and i will be calling it ELISEX.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 BTW Caps rolling is addictive more like Tube rolling only more F....ing Expensive.


----------



## Acapella11

> And I'm quite sure there are other factors within the topology/component quality that will also affect treble response, so I shall just keep fingers AND toes crossed that the T1s behave themselves!


 
  
 A tube amp should give a good match and you can always roll a bit more 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. For a solid state amp I would suggest the Audio-GD Master 9 (I have heard this combination) or the cheaper single ended version C-2.
  
 I know it is too late for any more suggestions for the Elise, lol. But for another revision, it would be great to have a symmetric output. It increases the power to drive the headphones, which can make a difference and also can improve SQ generally.


----------



## 2359glenn

Try using paper in oil caps for coupling between stages.
 They will get rid of treble sharpness and they are cheep
 get Sprague vitamin-Q or Russian paper in oil cheep.


----------



## JamieMcC

i luvmusic 2 said:


> So for example i have the Elise and mod it with those MUNDORF CAPS it will be looking something like the one in the picture and i will be calling it ELISEX.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Its not all bad new at least the caps have a longer life span. Have you seen the price some of the premium 6as7g tubes go for now.
  
 Luckily I picked up these a while back and they didn't cost the earth GEC 6as7g curved brown base and a Tungsram E80cc with Nickel plates, about as rare as hens teeth. I Think pics of my Nickel ones are the only ones to be found on the net.
  

  
 You can get some great results for very little out lay if you are prepared to venture away from audio branded caps. New Epcos films 89uf +/-2% found on Aliexpress, I brought four for $28 delivered.
  

  
 These Ruskie's MGBO bathtubs combined with a teflon bypass ousted some 100uf mkp M/cap Mundorfs!  I used 3 for 90uf per channel.
  
 10 x 30uf 160v for $21! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371023557326?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  

  
 By the way the Ampohms recently fitted in my Sex are developing nicely as they burn in! First tubes now caps, does this madness ever end!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

jamiemcc said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > So for example i have the Elise and mod it with those MUNDORF CAPS it will be looking something like the one in the picture and i will be calling it ELISEX.
> ...


 
  Yeah but  there is only two types of Caps that i really like MUNDORF and SOLEN i tried some other brand  don't really like them installed them then out they go. 
 BTW i will be installing Mundorf Supreme 0.1uf and 1.5uf caps on my SEX amp and Mundorf Supreme 1uf bypass for the CRACK as soon as Parts Connex10n have them in stock should be next week.


----------



## JamieMcC

A few other cap finds that have sounded superb.
  
 DIY Woody teflons!
  

  
 Fun with epcos oils
  

  

  

  
 K75-40b pulse capacitors, just stunning my favourite and due to go in my a themed amp with the russian 35 step rotary switches converted to attenuators below! These bath tubs have quiet a different character to the smaller k75-10's. Even hooking up just with fly leads the sound omg!
  

  

  
 Borrowed pics of switches
  

  

  
 Planning on using Vishay Dale RN60's when ever I get round to starting mine the RN55 are a little fiddly for my fat fingers..
  
 Early experiments in the Crack


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> So for example i have the Elise and mod it with those MUNDORF CAPS it will be looking something like the one in the picture and i will be calling it ELISEX.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Will NOT be joining in _this_ game, ilm2!!
  


acapella11 said:


> A tube amp should give a good match and you can always roll a bit more
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Roll a bit more, A11?...You know full well just how much of that's been going on this past year and more - am in need of a rest, sir!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but then I do have a few different 6SN7s to try, lol! (Although I'm putting all my faith in being able to adapt the C3gSs once again, to accompany the GECs - mind you, I have high hopes for my PsVane CV181-TII, which equalled if not exceeded some well-respected 6SN7s (including the 7N7s)...
  


jamiemcc said:


> Its not all bad new at least the caps have a longer life span. Have you seen the price some of the premium 6as7g tubes go for now.
> 
> Luckily I picked up these a while back and they didn't cost the earth GEC 6as7g curved brown base and a Tungsram E80cc with Nickel plates, about as rare as hens teeth. I Think pics of my Nickel ones are the only ones to be found on the net.
> 
> ...


 
  
 This looks a definite (no-brainer) job for the DIYer, but we lesser mortals are somewhat hog-tied I fear, JMcC...


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> Try using paper in oil caps for coupling between stages.
> They will get rid of treble sharpness and they are cheep
> get Sprague vitamin-Q or Russian paper in oil cheep.


 
  
 May well have to have a quiet word in Lukasz's ear...if necessary, lol!...but hopefully all will be well...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

jamiemcc said:


> A few other cap finds that have sounded superb.
> 
> DIY Woody teflons!
> 
> ...


 
 Holy Crap! that is a huge Rotary switch and for resistor i found something good or maybe better it's a PRP metal film non magnetic.How many steps is that Rotary switch?I like the wooden Caps.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > So for example i have the Elise and mod it with those MUNDORF CAPS it will be looking something like the one in the picture and i will be calling it ELISEX.
> ...


----------



## JamieMcC

hypnos1 said:


> This looks a definite (no-brainer) job for the DIYer, but we lesser mortals are somewhat hog-tied I fear, JMcC...


 
  
 lol I really do know where your coming from. Only a year ago I had never soldered or used a multi-meter before. I considered anything with a current to be akin to voodoo and black magic (and still mostly do). Its almost like trying to learn a different language (edit, no its actually harder). I get brain ache and feel the need to go and have a lie down after just looking at some of the schematics and formula!
 But slowly some of it starts to sink in and how about this for a first, a mig welder broke this week right next to where I was working and the works maintenance guy turns up with a schematic and starts taking it to bits so I went over to have a look and we went through the schematic together and narrowed down the problem to the pcb which was a replicable part. He was quiet surprised I was able to follow anything at all and in all honesty it came as a bit of a surprise to me as well lol.


----------



## gibosi

jamiemcc said:


> Luckily I picked up these a while back and they didn't cost the earth GEC 6as7g curved brown base and a Tungsram E80cc with Nickel plates, about as rare as hens teeth. I Think pics of my Nickel ones are the only ones to be found on the net.


 
  
 How would you describe the difference in sound between the nickle Tungsram E80CC and the non-nickle Tungsrams?


----------



## Lorspeaker

hypnos1 said:


> May well have to have a quiet word in Lukasz's ear...if necessary, lol!...but hopefully all will be well...


 
  
 would u know if there is any particular can/ (or cans) that Lukasz is voicing this amp with?


----------



## lukeap69

Good question. +1


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> would u know if there is any particular can/ (or cans) that Lukasz is voicing this amp with?


 
  
 Good question indeed, L...shall give him (another!) buzz...


----------



## JamieMcC

gibosi said:


> How would you describe the difference in sound between the nickle Tungsram E80CC and the non-nickle Tungsrams?


 
  
 Sonically its similar but the whole presentation is just cranked up a few notches, resolution, bass, midrange, smoothness, cohesiveness all are noticeably that little bit more refined than the standard Tungsram E80CC.


----------



## gibosi

jamiemcc said:


> Sonically its similar but the whole presentation is just cranked up a few notches, resolution, bass, midrange, smoothness, cohesiveness all are noticeably that little bit more refined than the standard Tungsram E80CC.


 
  
 Thanks. This is good to know. While my current favorite E80CC's are the 1950's Philips (both Eindhoven and Hamburg), I will definitely keep an eye open for this nickle Tungsram.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> would u know if there is any particular can/ (or cans) that Lukasz is voicing this amp with?


 
  
 His reply was that they usually use Beyers, AKGs and Senns - a variety from 32 to 600 ohm, some even at the more 'budget' level...so a pretty good selection it would appear..


----------



## Acapella11

Any word of planned availability? Have they ever considered a symmetric output?


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Any word of planned availability? Have they ever considered a symmetric output?


 
  
 Hi A11.
  
 Assuming the front panels arrived today and this time are 100% -  and that no other glitches appear - the revised date was for the end of this month...which of course is VERY SOON! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(am trying hard to control the excitement, lol!)...
  
 I am therefore hoping for good news in the next day or so, and of course will post the second I get it...whether it's good or not-so-good!!
  
 ps Re balanced output, I think it was something on their possible option list further down the road, depending upon demand...


----------



## lukeap69

hypnos1 said:


> His reply was that they usually use Beyers, AKGs and Senns - a variety from 32 to 600 ohm, some even at the more 'budget' level...so a pretty good selection it would appear..


 

 That pretty much covers all my home cans!


----------



## hypnos1

lukeap69 said:


> That pretty much covers all my home cans!


 

 Hey lukeap69, careful now...you just might be in danger of getting as excited as me, lol!


----------



## hypnos1

LATEST UPDATE FROM POLAND....
  
 Thankfully, the revised front panel is now to Lukasz's satisfaction...all he (and we!) need now is for the revised transformer case to arrive...(YES!!...Even that was re-commissioned after our comments, so as to look neater - no wonder the subsequent team discussions were heated...poor guy!). He had hoped it would arrive before the weekend but will now be early next week...which should hopefully mean my 'guinea pig' unit can be on its way to me later that week...am beginning to really shudder now, lol!
  
 So stay tuned  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> LATEST UPDATE FROM POLAND....
> 
> Thankfully, the revised front panel is now to Lukasz's satisfaction...all he (and we!) need now is for the revised transformer case to arrive...(YES!!...Even that was re-commissioned after our comments, so as to look neater - no wonder the subsequent team discussions were heated...poor guy!). He had hoped it would arrive before the weekend but will now be early next week...which should hopefully mean my 'guinea pig' unit can be on its way to me later that week...am beginning to really shudder now, lol!
> 
> ...


 
 GOOD STUFF......................


----------



## i luvmusic 2

On the other hand i replaced the SOLEN bypass caps to MUNDORF Caps for my CRACK amp and WOW!


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> LATEST UPDATE FROM POLAND....
> 
> Thankfully, the revised front panel is now to Lukasz's satisfaction...all he (and we!) need now is for the revised transformer case to arrive...(YES!!...Even that was re-commissioned after our comments, so as to look neater - no wonder the subsequent team discussions were heated...poor guy!). He had hoped it would arrive before the weekend but will now be early next week...which should hopefully mean my 'guinea pig' unit can be on its way to me later that week...am beginning to really shudder now, lol!
> 
> So stay tuned  :wink_face: ...




Cheers H1 

Are Feliks using now one or two driver tubes?


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> GOOD STUFF......................


 
  
 Hi ilm2...I'm certainly hoping it WILL be, lol!
  
 (ps. I believe there are even better than Mundorfs for you to try - and cheaper! Oh the joys (and expense!) of the DIY jobs...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


acapella11 said:


> Cheers H1
> 
> Are Feliks using now one or two driver tubes?


 
  
 Hi A11...Thx.
  
 They did in the end find that two 6SN7s gave better results...in _their _set-up, at least! So two it is (for which I personally am grateful..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > GOOD STUFF......................
> ...


 
 I know their is a lot out there tried some but the amount of $$$ i spend just to find what i like i could have purchased the MUNDORF SGO(i really like mundorf sound) so for me i will be going to MUNDORF all the way.


----------



## ryencoke

hypnos1 said:


> LATEST UPDATE FROM POLAND....
> 
> Thankfully, the revised front panel is now to Lukasz's satisfaction...all he (and we!) need now is for the revised transformer case to arrive...(YES!!...Even that was re-commissioned after our comments, so as to look neater - no wonder the subsequent team discussions were heated...poor guy!). He had hoped it would arrive before the weekend but will now be early next week...which should hopefully mean my 'guinea pig' unit can be on its way to me later that week...am beginning to really shudder now, lol!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Any chance to see some early pics of it soon?


----------



## i luvmusic 2

What i'am curious about is,what is the asking price?
 Not that i need another amp.
 I'am considering the DHT pre amp tho.


----------



## hypnos1

ryencoke said:


> Any chance to see some early pics of it soon?


 
  
 Hi ryencoke.
  
 At present the only pics are the computer model on page 8, I'm afraid...but the final version should look a bit different (nay, _better_) following the comments we made and the subsequent revisions Lukasz managed to arrange...ie : headphone jack to the front rather than on top (which I personally would never accept on _any_ amp!); a discreet power light; more visible graduation marks for volume, and a 'neater'/less overpowering-looking transformer housing.
  
 All in all, what promises to be a very classy-looking piece of kit...not to mention a potentially very classy _sound_!
  
 I shall of course be posting LOTS of pics the minute I have the eagerly-awaited arrival in my hands...indeed, I'm even considering making an 'opening' video to post on youtube (a first for me, so I hope I get it right, lol!).
  


i luvmusic 2 said:


> What i'am curious about is,what is the asking price?
> Not that i need another amp.
> I'am considering the DHT pre amp tho.


 
  
 As far as I know -  still under $500, ilm2...I expect final confirmation of exact figure should come next week.
  
 ps..._Of course_ you need another amp - are we not all border lunatics in this hobby of ours?!!


----------



## Lorspeaker

tips for your maiden youtube vid....
  
  
 CUT your FINGER NAILs


----------



## i luvmusic 2

> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > What i'am curious about is,what is the asking price?
> ...


 
 Not at this moment at least.......(still enjoying my CRACK and SEX)
 What i really need is a pre amp.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> tips for your maiden youtube vid....
> 
> 
> CUT your FINGER NAILs


 
  
 Cue white cotton gloves, lol?!


----------



## Lorspeaker

http://www.head-fi.org/t/744559/matched-pair-5998-tung-sol-in-excellent-condition


----------



## Johnnysound

Maybe similar to the Feliks W88 amp (?)


----------



## dosley01

6SN7 driver tubes with KT88 output tubes.  That looks more like a 20-30W amp.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/744559/matched-pair-5998-tung-sol-in-excellent-condition


 
  
 That sure looks one hot deal...and, I'm certain, would make _very_ sweet music in the Elise...


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> Maybe similar to the Feliks W88 amp (?)


 
  
 Lose the wood side panels and that's probably not far off the mark!


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> That sure looks one hot deal...and, I'm certain, would make _very_ sweet music in the Elise...


 
  
 Re: 5998 in the Elise....
  
 To really shine 5998's need different biasing than the standard 6AS7. If I remember correctly, the cathode resistance needs to be halved. But even so, I am sure they will still sound great.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Re: 5998 in the Elise....
> 
> To really shine 5998's need different biasing than the standard 6AS7. If I remember correctly, the cathode resistance needs to be halved. But even so, I am sure they will still sound great.


 
  
 Hi gibosi...that does actually raise an interesting question - I have a feeling the 6N13S that's being used is _very __slightly_ different in spec to the 'standard 6AS7'...if so, I wonder if it goes in the direction of the 5998 or the opposite!!


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi gibosi...that does actually raise an interesting question - I have a feeling the 6N13S that's being used is _very __slightly_ different in spec to the 'standard 6AS7'...if so, I wonder if it goes in the direction of the 5998 or the opposite!!


 
  
 The datasheets reveal that the 6N13S is slightly different than the 6AS7 (and the 6N5S is slightly different than both the 6N13S and 6AS7). I _think _I remember that some have reported that the 6N13S sounds better biased as a 5998 than as a 6AS7. However, I don't trust my memory all that much and neither should you! lol. (And at this point in time, I do not yet have an amp that uses these tubes.) So perhaps someone with more knowledge and experience will chime in here....


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> The datasheets reveal that the 6N13S is slightly different than the 6AS7 (and the 6N5S is slightly different than both the 6N13S and 6AS7). I _think _I remember that some have reported that the 6N13S sounds better biased as a 5998 than as a 6AS7. However, I don't trust my memory all that much and neither should you! lol. (And at this point in time, I do not yet have an amp that uses these tubes.) So perhaps someone with more knowledge and experience will chime in here....


 
  
 Thanks, g...this could prove interesting, lol! (Just hope setting for the 6N13S doesn't adversely affect my GEC 6AS7Gs 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




!!!)...time will tell...


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> hypnos1 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi gibosi...that does actually raise an interesting question - I have a feeling the 6N13S that's being used is _very __slightly_ different in spec to the 'standard 6AS7'...if so, I wonder if it goes in the direction of the 5998 or the opposite!!
> ...


 
 You mean using these tubes and manually ajusting the bias .what amp are we talking about , i have all the tubes mentionned for my part i use them on the WA2


----------



## Lorspeaker

we should have a good indicative SIZE of the amp by now? 
  

  
 crank up your vol...sit back n ride the clouds !!


----------



## gibosi

mikelap said:


> You mean using these tubes and manually ajusting the bias .what amp are we talking about , i have all the tubes mentionned for my part i use them on the WA2


 
  
 The Glenn OTL I hope to have shortly will have a 6AS7/5998 switch which allows one change the cathode resistance accordingly. And of course, with this switch, it will be possible to try a pair of 6N13S, for example, in both settings, to see which sounds the best.


----------



## MIKELAP

lorspeaker said:


> we should have a good indicative SIZE of the amp by now?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Acapella11

lorspeaker said:


> we should have a good indicative SIZE of the amp by now?
> 
> 
> 
> crank up your vol...sit back n ride the clouds !!




  
 Nice one!


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> we should have a good indicative SIZE of the amp by now?
> 
> 
> 
> crank up your vol...sit back n ride the clouds !!




  
 All should be revealed soon....WITH ANY LUCK!!


----------



## hypnos1

ANOTHER UPDATE FROM POLAND....
  
 Lukasz has just received the modified transformer housing, and fortunately it seems OK...(had horrible visions of it being trimmed down TOO much, lol!)
  
 But as everything needs assembling and fully testing, it won't be shipped to me until next week...so I need to be patient a little while longer (as does everyone else, I'm afraid!..).
  
 Anyway, as a teaser, we do at least have a photo of the front panel (beggars can't be choosers, I fear! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)... :
  

  
 Minimalist yes, but along with that textured finish I think it will look one classy piece of kit...apparently it looks even better 'in the flesh'.
  
 So now, folks, we have a _taste_ at least...


----------



## Acapella11

Thanks for the great teaser Hypnos1!


----------



## Dogmatrix

Very slick , love the understated black on black and the oversize control
 Please don't make the led a lazer


----------



## i luvmusic 2

LED is  bright,specially for me because i listen in dark room.


----------



## Lorspeaker

That panel looks great...( like those beefy bursons?)
 maybe there will  be some black woodgrain panels to line the sides..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




​
  
 i like those blue lites...dunno y some hate it.


----------



## hypnos1

dogmatrix said:


> Very slick , love the understated black on black and the oversize control
> Please don't make the led a lazer


 
  
  


i luvmusic 2 said:


> LED is  bright,specially for me because i listen in dark room.


 
  
 Ah well guys, there must be a zillion ways to tone down/cover completely the lil' thing... if needed, lol!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Time for bed...
 BFN


----------



## i luvmusic 2

It's a tube amp for crying out loud no need for any kind of front panel indicator you have the tubes glowing if you can't see the tube glow just touch them to know if they are on.
 Nah just joking !


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> dogmatrix said:
> 
> 
> > Very slick , love the understated black on black and the oversize control
> ...


 
 yes indeed i usually cover them with one of those clear silicon cabinet door bumper.


----------



## MIKELAP

i luvmusic 2 said:


> It's a tube amp for crying out loud no need for any kind of front panel indicator you have the tubes glowing if you can't see the tube glow just touch them to know if they are on.
> Nah just joking !


----------



## i luvmusic 2

mikelap said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > It's a tube amp for crying out loud no need for any kind of front panel indicator you have the tubes glowing if you can't see the tube glow just touch them to know if they are on.
> > Nah just joking !


 
 The MK III is the brightest that is why mine is covered it looks like the WOO are fine.


----------



## MIKELAP

i luvmusic 2 said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > i luvmusic 2 said:
> ...


 
 Yes it is the brightest if you have it at eye level annoying luckily amps are on my right so i dont see them and Burson is on desk .No problem for the sockets .i received the Russian sockets today in a record 10 business days ,when you put tube in its really smooth and they fit even better in copper fitting


----------



## Lorspeaker

how would this new double-barrel amp match up to say a Woo Wa6 SE...
 ( there is one going for 800bucks in the buysell? )..tempting.
 i am clueless how these OTLs or watnots vary in their characteristics..


----------



## MIKELAP

lorspeaker said:


> how would this new double-barrel amp match up to say a Woo Wa6 SE...
> ( there is one going for 800bucks in the buysell? )..tempting.
> i am clueless how these OTLs or watnots vary in their characteristics..


 
 Thats why we have to be patient easier said than done


----------



## hypnos1

*The Price?...$499!*
  
 Yep, they've managed to keep it under the $500 mark - just!
  
 Apologies from Poland re the delay - busy time of year, of course (even working weekends). Not that they really need to apologise....WE'RE the ones who caused it in the first place! All in all I think they've worked miracles to create a completely new model in this amount of time...
  
 Thanks to everyone for the positive comments on just the front panel...bodes well for the finished article, methinks lol!!
  
 ps....Lorspeaker - there's the rub of course...where can one find a good selection of these amps to A/B compare? Even then, you would really need to be using one's own set-up...tricky! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



         MIKELAP - patience sure is a virtue...but how does the saying go? : "Good things are worth...."! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (But hopefully no longer than end of next week - poor Lukasz...).


----------



## smial1966

Sounds like a very good deal for $500. Is this price in USD or Euros? 
 Next obvious question, how does one place an order?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> *The Price?...$499!*
> 
> Yep, they've managed to keep it under the $500 mark - just!
> 
> ...


----------



## hypnos1

smial1966 said:


>


 
  
 Hi smial1966...yes indeed, I think that price - it's always been quoted in the USD symbol, but will just make sure! - is VERY competitive to say the least.
  
 I shall also find out when it will be available for order on their website...
  
 Thanks for your interest...that will undoubtedly give Lukasz good encouragement!


----------



## smial1966

$500 is only £319 which is a very good price. Also, there's no import duty/VAT for purchasers in the E.U. just the delivery charge. Definitely buying one.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> Hi smial1966...yes indeed, I think that price - it's always been quoted in the USD symbol, but will just make sure! - is VERY competitive to say the least.
> 
> I shall also find out when it will be available for order on their website...
> 
> Thanks for your interest...that will undoubtedly give Lukasz good encouragement!


----------



## hypnos1

smial1966 said:


>


 
  
  


smial1966 said:


>


 
  
 Hi again smial1966...yes..*$499 USD *





...plus shipping, of course (and yes, we here in Europe are especially lucky, but I think it's still a good deal for our cousins across the pond).
  
 The Elise will eventually be listed on their webpage, but until then the best way to order will be to contact Lukasz via his email address : info@feliksaudio.pl and he will generate a PayPal invoice.
  
 As a matter of interest, what HPs will you be using?...Mine are Senn HD650s at the moment, but am expecting the Beyer T1s any day now...
  
 Edit...L says he will also be listing models on ebay, when everything is up and running...


----------



## smial1966

Thanks for the info. Me too, using the venerable old HD650 but with a WyWires RED cable which adds a bit of sparkle.  
  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> Hi again smial1966...yes..*$499 USD *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## hypnos1

smial1966 said:


>


 
  
 I feed my 650s with pure silver and they _love_ it!...These cans can up their game considerably in line with upgraded signal - WAY beyond their price level IMHO!


----------



## lukeap69

Would be interested with HD800 pairing.


----------



## MIKELAP

smial1966 said:


> $500 is only £319 which is a very good price. Also, there's no import duty/VAT for purchasers in the E.U. just the delivery charge. Definitely buying one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Lets not forget for Canada import fees ,taxes and to sweetin the pot currency exchange rate and of course shipping so its more like  $800.00


----------



## smial1966

Genuinely feel your pain as UK/E.U. audiophiles importing gear from anywhere outside of the European Union face exactly the same issues, which is particularly galling as a lot of head-fi gear is made stateside. 




mikelap said:


> Lets not forget for Canada import fees ,taxes and to sweetin the pot currency exchange rate and of course shipping so its more like  $800.00


----------



## MIKELAP

smial1966 said:


> Genuinely feel your pain as UK/E.U. audiophiles importing gear from anywhere outside of the European Union face exactly the same issues, which is particularly galling as a lot of head-fi gear is made stateside.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Custom fees alone  adds almost 20% to total


----------



## smial1966

As a general rule of thumb I always factor in an additional 30% of the items cost when importing gear from outside of the E.U. This accounts for import duty/VAT and courier fees - as the delivery agent ordinarily collects the import taxes for the government and then charges a fee for the 'service'. 




mikelap said:


> Custom fees alone  adds almost 20% to total


----------



## smial1966

Back on track. Emailed Lukasz and I'll purchase an Elise soonest. 

hypnos1 are you Colin? If so your Elise will be finished very soon according to Lukasz. Lucky chap! 




hypnos1 said:


> Hi again smial1966...yes..*$499 USD*  ...plus shipping, of course (and yes, we here in Europe are especially lucky, but I think it's still a good deal for our cousins across the pond).
> 
> The Elise will eventually be listed on their webpage, but until then the best way to order will be to contact Lukasz via his email address : info@feliksaudio.pl and he will generate a PayPal invoice.
> 
> As a matter of interest, what HPs will you be using?...Mine are Senn HD650s at the moment, but am expecting the Beyer T1s any day now...


----------



## hypnos1

smial1966 said:


> Back on track. Emailed Lukasz and I'll purchase an Elise soonest.
> 
> hypnos1 are you Colin? If so your Elise will be finished very soon according to Lukasz. Lucky chap!


 
  
 Yep, that's (lucky!) me..OH HAPPY HAPPY DAY! - Twice, because my T1s have just arrived...and WOW!...how can I now remain patient with what these things are already delivering from just my modest LD MKIV SE...mind you, don't forget that's with a pair of C3gSs driving a pair of _very_ nice GEC CV2523s (6AS7G)... And this is straight out of the (_very_ impressive) box!
  
 JaimieMcC was certainly right about the pairing with the GECs - but I am even more flabbergasted by them...they blow my HD650s right out of the water! I doubt my poor head will still be in one piece when plugged into the Elise, lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I can understand why Skylab rates them as the king of dynamic headphones. They will surely bring out the best in the Elise - without a doubt (but from what I am getting already, I would imagine they could be VERY tricky in most ss amps!).
  
 Well done on the proposed purchase...I am so glad for the Feliks guys, after what they've done for us...
  
 MIKELAP...I do feel for you guys out West...it seems Canada rips you off even more than when _we_ have to import from outside UK. Hopefully the pain isn't quite so great for you guys in the US...(Mind you, those charges go on goods from China also, and I think the Feliks quality is a good step up from Far Eastern equivalent gear (or anywhere near).
  
 Must get back to my T1s guys...sorry!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> Yep, that's (lucky!) me..OH HAPPY HAPPY DAY! - Twice, because my T1s have just arrived...and WOW!...how can I now remain patient with what these things are already delivering from just my modest LD MKIV SE...mind you, don't forget that's with a pair of C3gSs driving a pair of _very_ nice GEC CV2523s (6AS7G)... And this is straight out of the (_very_ impressive) box!
> 
> JaimieMcC was certainly right about the pairing with the GECs - but I am even more flabbergasted by them...they blow my HD650s right out of the water! I doubt my poor head will still be in one piece when plugged into the Elise, lol
> 
> ...


 
  
 Congrats H1! Now, we are talking  lol


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Congrats H1! Now, we are talking  lol


 
  
 Thx A11...life is good...


----------



## hypnos1

lukeap69 said:


> Would be interested with HD800 pairing.


 
  
 Hi lukeap69.
  
 Now I have my Beyer T1s - that I am already completely in love with! - hopefully they should give a reasonable idea, as I believe they have a _similar_ signature(?) and both are 600ohm...but I'm afraid I shan't (can't!) stretch to HD800s as well lol!!)...You'll just have to give it a go...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(The wallet will look after itself...so I'm told!! - but not by "She who must be obeyed" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## gibosi

lukeap69 said:


> Would be interested with HD800 pairing.


 
  
 The beauty of a tube amp is you can roll tubes until you find a combination of drivers and powers that hits the sweet spot. And from what I have read, many prefer to use the HD800 with a tube amp, which tends to add a bit more warmth and bass to the 800's rather cold, analytical SQ. So I am sure the 800 will sound great through the Elise. However, the best combination of drivers and powers will be a function of your ears and associated gear. It's all about synergy. Have fun!


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> The beauty of a tube amp is you can roll tubes until you find a combination of drivers and powers that hits the sweet spot. And from what I have read, many prefer to use the HD800 with a tube amp, which tends to add a bit more warmth and bass to the 800's rather cold, analytical SQ. So I am sure the 800 will sound great through the Elise. However, the best combination of drivers and powers will be a function of your ears and associated gear. It's all about synergy. Have fun!


 
  
 Hi gibosi...you beat me to it...again!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 With about 5 hours on the Beyer T1s now, I suspect (just as with the HD800s) one would need to be careful not to pair with _too_ bright a set-up...which is where, as you say, the OTL amps in particular really come into play. This is one of the main reasons I asked the Feliks guys to consider the 6SN7/6AS7G combo - with such a myriad of possible combinations from these tube families, if the stock configuration doesn't give what one is looking for there is a wealth of information out there that will guide you - eg.. 6SN7 tube rollers guide; reference 6SN7 thread; for 6AS7G rollers etc.(and even some on my home thread LDTAVTRolling Guide). So with a little research, the findings and experience of all these people should point the way fairly quickly to what may prove a good combination, depending on headphones and other elements in one's own set-up.
  
 In other words the Elise should prove to be a VERY versatile unit indeed...


----------



## JamieMcC

hypnos1 said:


> Hi gibosi...you beat me to it...again!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Congrats on the T1 they sure do like being run on tubes.
   
 A favourite combo of mine are the early National Union 6sn7 black glass and the GEC 6as7g, I really enjoy the level of detail combined with the density of tone the pairing bring.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again smial1966...yes..*$499 USD *
> 
> 
> 
> ...plus shipping, of course (and yes, we here in Europe are especially lucky, but I think it's still a good deal for our cousins across the pond).


 
  
 Now is that VAT included or not? We are not lucky enough to escape that within EU.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Now is that VAT included or not? We are not lucky enough to escape that within EU.


 
  
 Hi Oskari.
  
 Hopefully(!) included, but will check...(why do most people quote _with_ and just some _without_?...all to confuse, methinks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...


----------



## smial1966

As Lukasz quoted me $499 plus shipping I think it's pretty safe to presume that VAT is already included in the price.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> Hi Oskari.
> 
> Hopefully(!) included, but will check...(why do most people quote _with_ and just some _without_?...all to confuse, methinks!
> 
> ...


----------



## hypnos1

smial1966 said:


>


 
  
 Thanks smial1966...that was my assumption also, but I've been wrong before now!...However, I'm sure we're OK - have just emailed Lukasz for confirmation anyway...


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Now is that VAT included or not? We are not lucky enough to escape that within EU.


 
  
 Hi Oskari..$499 USD INCLUDING VAT...Phew!


----------



## smial1966

As a relative thermionic newbie I wanted to ask what valves (tubes) Elise owners planned to use, as there seems to be quite a premium paid for certain coveted NOS tubes. 
  
 These Sophia Electric 6NS7 are expensive but garner amazingly good reviews - http://www.sophiaelectric.com/pages/se/6sn7.htm - so has anybody used them?


----------



## Oskari

Thanks. Doesn't that mean it's $405.69 or so for those outside of the EU VAT system?


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Thanks. Doesn't that mean it's $405.69 or so for those outside of the EU VAT system?


 
  
 Another question for Lukasz...!!!


----------



## lukeap69

If it is, that means I can get it cheaper and the difference can be used for shipping!


----------



## MIKELAP

oskari said:


> Thanks. Doesn't that mean it's $405.69 or so for those outside of the EU VAT system?


 
 You got my attention there .


----------



## Lorspeaker

just round it down to 400...and it will be sweet.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Thanks. Doesn't that mean it's $405.69 or so for those outside of the EU VAT system?


 
  
 Hi again Oskari...and everyone outside the EU hoping for that amazing-looking figure.
  
 I'm afraid it appears the VAT system in Poland is very complex, and makes it extremely difficult (and expensive) for small shipments outside the EU to allow for the deduction of the VAT...another instance of so-called uniform rules and regs within the EU being quite so straightforward (and affordable) - _especially_ for smaller firms. Lukasz is hoping they might be able to address all the issues in the New Year, but as they aren't _volume_ manufacturers I would imagine that will be a very big task indeed!
  
 So folks, I'm afraid the $499 price has to remain worldwide...but let's face it, that is STILL a very good price for a quality unit - the poor guys can't be making much of a profit at this point ($400 would see them bankrupt in no time, to be sure!!). Remember, these are not mass-produced items, so hopefully you're not _too_ disappointed lol...


----------



## Oskari

The Polish Republic can surely use the support. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 (It's probably the right address for complaints, too.)


----------



## eppz

Are there any photos available ?


----------



## hypnos1

eppz said:


> Are there any photos available ?


 
  
 Hi eppz.
  
 At the moment only the computer simulation on page 8 and photo of the revised front panel (HP jack now to the front instead of on top, and a power led) I'm afraid...the final assembly and testing will go into next week, ready for shipping to me by the end of...hopefully! Then it shouldn't take long to reach me in the UK, whereupon I shall take LOTS of photos and even have a go at videoing the opening, lol!
 So it should be real soon now...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

With 20+ hrs on the Beyer T1s and a good few more of my test tracks covered, I am now even more intrigued by how they will sound with the Elise...if what they can do for my LD MKIV SE is anything to go by.
  
 I shan't go into too much depth about them - far more experienced people than I have already given extensive assessments of their abilities.
  
 All I can say is that every positive aspect reported seems to be accurate - to _my_ ears, anyway...viz: clarity; agility; separation/placement; bass, mids, treble extension and detail; holographic stage/imaging; general coherence/balance etc. etc...
  
 On the main (debatable) negative aspect, this is a very tricky one to call - ie. that treble!... I can understand why _some_ would find this a little troublesome, but I personally feel _most_ of the 'trouble' is probably down to an unfortunate combination of factors _outside_ the headphones themselves...from power supply, through cables used/source/DAC to (of course!) type of amp used. Not to mention one's ears! And then there's the degree of 'close-miking' adopted/diffuser used/ability of the mike to handle volume spikes/recording engineer's predilection for treble emphasis...etc.etc.
 I have a feeling the T1s are SO good at retrieving/reproducing exceptional detail (particularly in the upper frequencies) that they will highlight mercilessly ANY 'troublesome' factor in the chain...in my own case, through comparison of tracks with obviously different recording studio bias/equipment/technique I feel most of the blame lies in this quarter. The very few occasions when near-excessive sibilance was apparent could safely (IMHO) be put at the recording's door, coupled with the singer's own vocalisation of "s" and occasionally even "t".
  
 And so to summarise, as far as I personally am concerned, the few instances where the "perfect storm" might occur and perhaps spoil slightly one's favourite track of old are FAR outweighed by the sheer magic these cans bring to EVERYTHING else, and not even in those very few prone cases would I put the HD650s back in - NO WAY!!
  
 But I would certainly advise IF AT ALL POSSIBLE to try and sample them in one's own set-up before spending rather a lot of money... or at least in some very similar equipment. Or if not, try to be guided by how your ears respond to sibilance generally - and of course by the _type_ of music you prefer and its general bias in terms of recording technique....then it's in the lap of the Gods, I'm afraid lol!!
  
 As for me, I don't regret a single penny (dime!) I've shelled out on these beauties...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...


----------



## Nic Rhodes

T1s are so much fun with OTLs  The perfect match.


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> With 20+ hrs on the Beyer T1s and a good few more of my test tracks covered, I am now even more intrigued by how they will sound with the Elise...if what they can do for my LD MKIV SE is anything to go by.
> 
> I shan't go into too much depth about them - far more experienced people than I have already given extensive assessments of their abilities.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Glad, you are enjoying them. If I wouldn't have had and loved the HD800s, I would have considered buying them after I heard them the first time. Maybe, I should add them to my collection one day just like Nic has done already


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Glad, you are enjoying them. If I wouldn't have had and loved the HD800s, I would have considered buying them after I heard them the first time. Maybe, I should add them to my collection one day just like Nic has done already


 
  
 Or go for some electrostatics lol?!! (Chance would be a fine thing!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...


----------



## JamieMcC

I moved from the HD650 to the T1 and there is no going back after spending a little time with the HD650 than swapping back to T1's its like having a box taken off of your head just so much more clarity, extension and air.
  
  
  
  


nic rhodes said:


> T1s are so much fun with OTLs  The perfect match.


 
  
 +1 T1's with a modest but well implemented OTL amp can be a epic combination.


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> Or go for some electrostatics lol?!! (Chance would be a fine thing!..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Tried Stax SR-007, wasn't my cup of tea, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Others may be different ofc.


----------



## Acapella11

Hypnos1, Do you know when the public ETA is scheduled after you have received your first Elise?


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Hypnos1, Do you know when the public ETA is scheduled after you have received your first Elise?


 
  
 Hi A11.
  
 Have emailed Lukasz, so we should have some idea very soon...probably the best bet is to email him directly : info@feliksaudio.pl


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Hypnos1, Do you know when the public ETA is scheduled after you have received your first Elise?


 
  
 Hi again.
  
 As expected, production now will be in January...Christmas is almost upon us, non?...(So don't spend _all_ your Christmas money yet, folks!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).
  
 They have completed the initial tests of my unit, and it has already gained a 'collective' seal of approval...(I can imagine there may well have been the odd dissenting voice _somewhere_ in the team initially!). So things bode well at the moment...I just hope the Christmas mail doesn't gum up the works, lol!! - I want to be getting those pictures off to you all ASAP...


----------



## Lorspeaker

so your unit should be well burnt in ...great


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> so your unit should be well burnt in ...great


 
  
 Yes indeed...that will be very helpful for early comparison with what should be rather better tubes than stock (am thinking especially the GEC's, lol!...not to mention some PsVane CV181 -TIIs; 7N7s; VT231s...and what _may_ prove even more interesting...a pair of Melz metal-based 1578s on their way!).
  
 On reflection, Lukasz's message has got my saliva flowing even more now - ie his Northern European collective "really rather good" translates into everyone else's _very_ good indeed! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and given that's before much burn-in with stock tubes, I'm beginning to shake already...


----------



## Lorspeaker

For a start.. use cheap NOS tubes like RCAs..Westingham stuff...b4 u slot in your mega$$tubes.
 (cos i dun foresee myself ever buying those...arrrghhhh )


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> For a start.. use cheap NOS tubes like RCAs..Westingham stuff...b4 u slot in your mega$$tubes.
> (cos i dun foresee myself ever buying those...arrrghhhh )


 
 Hi L.
  
 I must admit I did spend a good bit on the GEC CV2523s (but not as much as they seem to be going for at the moment!), and the PsVanes were not exactly cheap, but the rest I got for reasonable money by careful searching for used...they are out there, but need patience and good ebay technique!!...speaking of which one does have to learn the hard way - viz. even in my later rolling days, I made the mistake of not reading ALL the small print and was fooled by a pair of Conrac 6080s being photographed with BENDIX boxes...and of course they were just bog-standard RCAs - or could they have been GEs?...I have seen some better-looking RCAs around. Whatever, SILLY ME! (And I'm afraid I won't even bother to put them in the Elise, after the awful sound that came from my Little Dot, but I _shall_ try some RCA and Chatham 6AS7Gs...).


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 Does it look like this?
  




  
 This one is made by RCA.
  
 I wouldn't be so quick to write off the Conrac tubes because they may sound much better after burn-in. My favorite pair of 6080 tubes sounded terrible when I put them in at first, and I just put them away in the dust bin. Somehow I decided to give them more time in case they were new. After 30 hours I couldn't believe the improvement, and they are now my favorite power tubes (Sylvania).
  
 Not saying that the Conracs will be great, but u should give them a chance....


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> Does it look like this?
> 
> ...


 
  
 They sure do,mordy...thanks - so they're RCAs?...Must admit I've seen far nicer-looking ones 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope for them as they were in fact used tubes already (_and_ look it!), but I shall give benefit of the doubt and try 'em - just for your and Lorspeaker's sake, lol!!...but not until I've spoiled myself guys...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Edit. ps. From what Glenn says about the 6N13S, I suspect they will be better than any RCA anyway!
  
 Cheers...


----------



## Lorspeaker

sometimes it is about synergy...a kind of black art/mystery.
 Roast this tube for a couple of days, then submit your verdict.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> Does it look like this?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, mordy, you've got me spending more money...just out of interest (and as you like them so much!) I've just bagged myself a nice-looking pair of NOS Sylvania 6080s - and they DO look much nicer than those Conracs, lol!...From your own findings, it's gonna be REAL interesting to see how they compare with the Chatham 6AS7Gs and GECs, not to mention the stock 6N13Ss...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


lorspeaker said:


> sometimes it is about synergy...a kind of black art/mystery.
> Roast this tube for a couple of days, then submit your verdict.


 
  
 Too true, L...there's some REALLY strange things happen in the black arts, lol!!...I shall try to remain objective...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Oskari

> Originally Posted by *mordy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> here is a picture of my favorite Scotch:


 
  
 Surprisingly I have yet to find a bar serving that around here.
  
 Got a bottle of this today:
  

  
  
 Very fruity for the smoky dram that it is.


----------



## hypnos1

*THE ELISE IS READY FOR SHIPPING...*








(Well, mine anyway - sorry guys!)...the long(ish) wait is over!
  
 So I should have some nice photos for y'all very soon now..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..
  
 Excuse me while I go and celebrate...with a cup (or 2) of Earl Grey - a bit early yet for something stronger, lol!
  
 BFN...


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> *THE ELISE IS READY FOR SHIPPING...*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice. One milestone done!


----------



## rosgr63

nic rhodes said:


> T1s are so much fun with OTLs  The perfect match.


 
  
 They do well with SET's too.............


----------



## hypnos1

rosgr63 said:


> They do well with SET's too.............


 
  
 And are they more or _less_ prone to the occasional treble harshness, r?...
  
 My own guilty 'prone' recordings are gradually becoming less difficult to stay with at higher volume levels as the T1s continue to burn in...they do appear to need a fairly long time being fed their juice - I'm hoping this trend continues a wee bit longer yet, I must admit (or I might just try the 'Loquah' mod and/or the disconnecting the 2 shields in the jack plug mod! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). Whatever, I am loving these things more at every listen...


----------



## rosgr63

No mine aren't
They are Zeus recablaed


----------



## hypnos1

rosgr63 said:


> No mine aren't
> They are Zeus recablaed


 
  
 Would have loved to try my pure silver cable, but the fact that the T1 cable is fixed is my only real gripe!...


----------



## mordy

Hi hypnos1,
  
  I am really waiting to hear your impressions about the Sylvania 6080 tubes. Just remember, don't jump the gun until they have been burnt in well - I was ready to write off mine after the first listen, before I put some 30 hours on them.


----------



## Lorspeaker

" ok...lets send this to Hypnos...it is ready!! "


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> " ok...lets send this to Hypnos...it is ready!! "


 
  
 Actually, L, I think it's _me_ on that dissecting table - I feel a nervous wreck!


----------



## hypnos1

I HAVE A TRACKING NUMBER, FOLKS!! And some photos...
  
 Elise should hopefully now be with me by next Wednesday, but I couldn't keep you waiting 'til then for some pics, so here are 2 preliminary ones Lukasz took to whet the appetite...(I shall try to give her the star treatment as soon as she arrives, lol!).
  
 As I suspected, Lukasz's initial praise of the unit _was_ somewhat understated...after further testing, the verdict is now "very excited and proud of the new product"...that's more like it!
  
 I asked for comparison between low and high impedance 'phones, and actually specific differences were hard to discern (which sounds encouraging to me, at least)...so much will depend on the quality of HPs used and personal preference. But he did confirm that both exhibited great dynamism, which should bode well for _both_ types...
  
 So here goes the initial unveiling...
  

  

  
 Sheer understated elegance?...I think so myself, at least. And I bet she looks even better in the flesh...


----------



## john57

It has a big transformer cover. Is this a OTL or transformer coupled?


----------



## smial1966

Congratulations!

Very cool aesthetic, industrial and stylish. The black accentuates the valves which is nice.




hypnos1 said:


> I HAVE A TRACKING NUMBER, FOLKS!! And some photos...
> 
> Elise should hopefully now be with me by next Wednesday, but I couldn't keep you waiting 'til then for some pics, so here are 2 preliminary ones Lukasz took to whet the appetite...(I shall try to give her the star treatment as soon as she arrives, lol!).
> 
> ...





hypnos1 said:


> I HAVE A TRACKING NUMBER, FOLKS!! And some photos...
> 
> Elise should hopefully now be with me by next Wednesday, but I couldn't keep you waiting 'til then for some pics, so here are 2 preliminary ones Lukasz took to whet the appetite...(I shall try to give her the star treatment as soon as she arrives, lol!).
> 
> ...


----------



## lukeap69

Will be waiting for your impressions @hypnos1. Wish you could try her with the HD800 as this could be a good candidate for my Senn.


----------



## hypnos1

john57 said:


> It has a big transformer cover. Is this a OTL or transformer coupled?


 
  
 Yep john57, that sure is one BIG transformer! (They obviously haven't skimped on that either 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...OTL, by the way...
  
  
 And thanks smial1966...glad you like her...
  
  
 Well Lukeap, I can only hope my findings with the T1s will give a _reasonable_ idea for you...


----------



## Acapella11

H1, looks like its build as sturdy as a tank.  Could be the LDs big big brother.  I like the black finish. Nice one.


----------



## Dogmatrix

Looks beautiful and powerful at the same time , great job especially considering the time frame
 One question, since the sockets are some distance under the holes in the cover due to the circuit board construction how will 6080 type tubes fit with their wide flat base ?


----------



## JamieMcC

Sweet I am looking forward to reading your impressions


----------



## hypnos1

dogmatrix said:


> Looks beautiful and powerful at the same time , great job especially considering the time frame
> One question, since the sockets are some distance under the holes in the cover due to the circuit board construction how will 6080 type tubes fit with their wide flat base ?


 
  
 Hi Dogmatrix.
  
 Those bases do look somewhat recessed...will check that out as soon as it arrives. With any luck the pins will still seat OK...hopefully!
  
 (Actually, I'll give Lukasz a buzz tomorrow and see if he can shed some light in the meantime).


----------



## hypnos1

Thanks for all your positive comments guys...it's nice to have this feedback already. The Feliks guys have really appreciated our enthusiasm in this project - it certainly seemed to spur them on!
  
 Hope to have even more exciting news for you very soon...
  
 I hear my pillow talking...


----------



## MIKELAP

When you get amp check cover over amp seems very thin ,looks like one piece formed sheet metal and its warped somewhat ,.no groove to insert cover in ?     Something to check out .


----------



## Lorspeaker

wow..looks like a huge solid amp this ELIZE
 was hoping againt $$ that there will be some wood...or wood verneer..arrghh. 

  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



was standing infront of a balanced Woo Wa22 yesterday..all the familiar tubes(6080,6sn7,5au4, sweet)
 and 2000bucks staring at me...monstrously strong looking..cant afford that beast.
  


  
 i need the MEASUREMENTs n the weight....
 not sure if the coffee tabletopspace n legs will hold up..else it is no deal...lol
 where to find my next 500bucks...scratching my head...sacrifice a pandora6?
  
 Will this be enuf to power a HE6...? ...ok i am asking too marrrrrrchhhh


----------



## Lorspeaker

mikelap said:


> When you get amp check cover over amp seems very thin ,looks like one piece formed sheet metal and its warped somewhat ,.no groove to insert cover in ?     Something to check out .


 
  
 u have sharp eyes 
 ...on the darkvoice, the topplate overhangs the faceplate..solved the little warpish look.
 Hynos should be able to judge it better in person..if it is/isnt a big concern.


----------



## MIKELAP

lorspeaker said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > When you get amp check cover over amp seems very thin ,looks like one piece formed sheet metal and its warped somewhat ,.no groove to insert cover in ?     Something to check out .
> ...


 
 Important is what is inside but build quality is important also says alot about the whole operation this shouldnt have left the company like this especially the first one. But i like the looks of it .                                                                                                 EDIT: By the way wasnt looking for defects blame it on my 35 years as a Machinist lol


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Important is what is inside but build quality is important also says alot about the whole operation this shouldnt have left the company like this especially the first one. But i like the looks of it .                                                                                                 EDIT: By the way wasnt looking for defects blame it on my 35 years as a Machinist lol


 
  
 Hi MIKELAP.
  
 Hopefully not as bad as it appears, but in all fairness to Lukasz and the team I'm afraid it's my own impatience that is to blame...he did inform me of a couple of issues with it being the prototype, and that would be rectified in the final production models. And so long as it was working perfectly I was happy for it to be shipped...just didn't want it to be arriving _after_ Christmas!
 So please don't judge them too harshly - I am more than happy to be the guinea pig, lol!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

.................


----------



## Lorspeaker

hypnos1 said:


> Hi MIKELAP.
> 
> Hopefully not as bad as it appears, but in all fairness to Lukasz and the team I'm afraid it's my own impatience that is to blame...he did inform me of a couple of issues with it being the prototype, and that would be rectified in the final production models. And so long as it was working perfectly I was happy for it to be shipped...just didn't want it to be arriving _after_ Christmas!
> So please don't judge them too harshly - I am more than happy to be the guinea pig, lol!


 
  
 so he is letting u listen to the prototype first...for an impression of the sound ?


----------



## Acapella11

H1, will you receive C3G adapters as well?


----------



## hypnos1

Hi guys...explanations in order...
  
 MIKELAP....The ONLY reason my unit was shipped was because I AGREED to the minor issues reported to me. Otherwise Lukasz would NEVER had done so...
                     The slight gap is due to the changed position of the HP jack...in the rush to get my unit out ASAP, getting the jack to fit in its new location inside proved more of a problem than anticipated and hence the slight misalignment with the front panel. They subsequently found a better way to fit it, but I was happy to accept the initial outcome. So the production units will have everything fitting perfectly. (The second issue, which again didn't bother me at all, was that the anodising of the volume knob came back a slightly different shade to the case - and again will be sorted for subsequent units).
  
 Hopefully this will allay any concerns folks may have about the final units....prototypes ALWAYS have teething problems, as you all know! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I fully expected them, which is why I have no regrets whatsoever about being the guinea pig....(Lorspeaker...I was happy to pay up front, and Lukasz was good enough to make a price adjustment -  in my case -  in consideration of these minor flaws).
  
 Re. use of 6080s, apparently there should be no problem with them...and of course I shall confirm that as soon as my amp arrives.
  
 Acapella11...I would imagine it will be some while yet before they even test for C3g use...so an adapter is in the lap of the Gods, I fear (will I have the courage to experiment myself?...Very possibly!!).


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> Hi guys...explanations in order...
> 
> MIKELAP....The ONLY reason my unit was shipped was because I AGREED to the minor issues reported to me. Otherwise Lukasz would NEVER had done so...
> The slight gap is due to the changed position of the HP jack...in the rush to get my unit out ASAP, getting the jack to fit in its new location inside proved more of a problem than anticipated and hence the slight misalignment with the front panel. They subsequently found a better way to fit it, but I was happy to accept the initial outcome. So the production units will have everything fitting perfectly. (The second issue, which again didn't bother me at all, was that the anodising of the volume knob came back a slightly different shade to the case - and again will be sorted for subsequent units).
> ...


 
 Thanks for the update


----------



## JamieMcC

I quiet like the plain box approach adding and finishing wood panels will add a substantial amount of cost I like the wood but it is not to everyone's taste. Its easy enough to add a couple of wood side panels or a wood surround afterwards which gives lots of scope to customise to your own taste which is pretty much exactly what Decware does.
  
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=decware&rlz=1T4ADRA_enGB429GB430&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=a8aMVJCYFcy3UcKrguAB&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAw&biw=1518&bih=680&dpr=0.9


----------



## smial1966

Does anyone have experience of using this Sophia Electric 6SN7 tube? As it garners great reviews from users but is quite expensive. Any thoughts? 
  




  
 http://www.sophiaelectric.com/pages/se/6sn7.htm


----------



## MIKELAP

smial1966 said:


> Does anyone have experience of using this Sophia Electric 6SN7 tube? As it garners great reviews from users but is quite expensive. Any thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Check out Woo Audio owner unite thread some users there or 6SN7 tube addicts thread


----------



## mordy

Hi smial1966,
  
 Found a HF thread from 2009 about the Sophia 6SN7 tubes. Some people thought that they were rebranded Chinese tubes. The consensus IMHO was:
  
_"I got a pair of the Sophia 6SN7's...and they were good...but not really worth the money, IMO. No better than a typical pair of NOS Sylvanias, which are cheaper._"
  
 Here is the link to the short thread of 2 pages:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/442746/sophia-electric-6sn7
  
 These tubes get a 5 star rating for looks.......
  
 Again, I only read through the material above - could very well be other opinions out there.
  
 PS: These tubes come in not less than four grades: A, B, C and unrated bulk, with progressively lower prices. Saw some reviews on Audiogon that these ratings have nothing to do with how they sound....
  
 If it looks good and is expensive it has to be good... - not sure about that. Caveat Emptor!


----------



## smial1966

Many thanks for your diligent research mordy. Guess I'll stick with the highly regarded 6SN7 NOS variants and avoid the contemporary 'jewellery' tubes. 




mordy said:


> Hi smial1966,
> 
> Found a HF thread from 2009 about the Sophia 6SN7 tubes. Some people thought that they were rebranded Chinese tubes. The consensus IMHO was:
> 
> ...


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I tried these and they were not my cup of tea at all and VERY pricey. Guess I am just lucky with loads of far better NOS to hand to compare.


----------



## mordy

I guess that we have been conditioned that up to a certain level, if you pay more, you get better quality. IMHO this does not apply to vacuum tubes.
  
 There are a number of professional sellers who try to push up the prices on certain items (that they posses in large quantities), using marketing hype and psychology to talk people into that the tube they have (made from unobtanium) is THE BEST THERE IS.
  
 Taking the easy way out, a lot of people would just like to think that if they paid top dollars they are getting the best. They do not have the patience, and are not prepared to go through the painstaking research and true fact finding and critical listening, that the members of this forum have displayed.
  
 Over and over again, we have to try to persuade people that an unknown $10 pair is superior to the highly touted $48 tubes, or that a pair of $20 tubes is far better than a pair of brass plated $125 tubes.
  
 Anyhow, we are a patient bunch, and continue to try to show the way to those who want to listen....


----------



## hypnos1

AT LAST - my Elise is in the UK!....Arrived at UPS depot this afternoon, so hopefully the wait should be over tomorrow (Thursday), if they get their A into G!!
  
 With my Beyer T1s now nicely burned in, the anticipation is unbearable, lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 Have been trying to whittle down my tracks for testing - but hardly know where to start! All I am sure of is that most will be acoustic. For me at least, this provides ideal assessment of dynamic range (and actual dynamism) - especially classical symphony et al; tonal range/texture/timbre, both instrumental and vocal; cohesion/balance/clarity/spatial elements etc. And I like to really give emphasis to violin/cello/piano and female voice...as long as percussion is behaving itself! (But I do like some electronics _somewhere_ in the mix - although going back some years now... eg...Dire Straits ('Love Over Gold'); Genesis ('Duke'); ELO (Various); Alan Parsons Project ('Turn of a Friendly Card'); Supertramp ('Breakfast in America' - 2010 remix);Clannad).
  
 Don't know when I'll find time to listen to _everything_ I would like before giving my own particular findings, so I shall just have to feed titbits as soon as I can....can't keep you guys waiting much longer!


----------



## Synthax

What can I propose to enjoy tube sound:
  
 Katie Melua - I'd Like To Kill You with a Kiss
 Melody Gardot - Mira
 Tracy Chapman - Fast Car
 Patrcia Barber - Like JT
 Metallica - Memory Remains
 ...


----------



## Synthax

Violin:
 Vayghan Williams - Dark Pastoral For Cello
 Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon OST with Yo-Yo Ma - Desert Capriccio
 Shawshank Redemption OST - Sisters


----------



## Synthax

Sorry for my mistake - I meant Cello tracks


----------



## JamieMcC

hypnos1 said:


> AT LAST - my Elise is in the UK!....Arrived at UPS depot this afternoon, so hopefully the wait should be over tomorrow (Thursday), if they get their A into G!!
> 
> With my Beyer T1s now nicely burned in, the anticipation is unbearable, lol...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Colin I think we are all looking forward to your impressions of the Elise with the T1's


----------



## JamieMcC

Colin looking at your taste for female vocal and orchestral I thought I might mention two of my favourite albums that combine the two genres
  
 Bic Runga live in concert with the Christchurch symphony orchestra (Recorded live in the Christchurch Cathedral).
  
 Hooverphonic live with orchestra. (A little unusual but grows on you, plenty of vids on youtube of this concert filmed in black and white).


----------



## hypnos1

Hi synthax and JamieMcC.
  
 Thanks for your recommendations...will have to try and look them up...."So much to do, so little time", lol!...Of course, you could always test them out yourSELVES!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers
  
 C J


----------



## kvtaco17

synthax said:


> What can I propose to enjoy tube sound:
> 
> Katie Melua - I'd Like To Kill You with a Kiss
> Melody Gardot - Mira
> ...


 
  
  


synthax said:


> Violin:
> Vayghan Williams - Dark Pastoral For Cello
> Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon OST with Yo-Yo Ma - Desert Capriccio
> Shawshank Redemption OST - Sisters


 
  
 Sounds like alot of my evenings...


----------



## Johnnysound

hypnos1 said:


> AT LAST - my Elise is in the UK!....Arrived at UPS depot this afternoon, so hopefully the wait should be over tomorrow (Thursday), if they get their A into G!!
> 
> With my Beyer T1s now nicely burned in, the anticipation is unbearable, lol...
> 
> ...


 
 Congrats H1 ¡  and good music selection.  May I  suggest british singer Sade, Forever Best CD2,  from minute 4 to 11 is a great test for ANY equipment, excellent  recording with extreme deep bass plus dynamics, ultra highs and of course voices.  It would be very interesting to test the Elise abilities as a preamp,  with both tubed and SS electronics. I suspect it will be a very good one ...


----------



## Lorspeaker

wow...u can almost taste the cake..the amp.. 
 what other cans u have ...any low impedence cans ...audeze ...akg ...?
 that would be of interest.


----------



## hypnos1

IT'S HERE!!!...1pm, UK time. And I can't peek inside yet - chores to do, and I've got to get the video camera set up...Oh the pain! (And I blame all you guys...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Ah well, we've waited this long...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(Those chores are gonna get done in record time, lol!!)...
  
 Back soon....


----------



## lukeap69

hypnos1 said:


> IT'S HERE!!!...1pm, UK time. And I can't peek inside yet - chores to do, and I've got to get the video camera set up...Oh the pain! (And I blame all you guys... ). Ah well, we've waited this long... ...(Those chores are gonna get done in record time, lol!!)...
> 
> Back soon....




What, we've waited for so long and you are hanging us on the air? 

Come one, we're as excited as you are...


----------



## Lorspeaker

does it come with stock NOS tubes...save a few bucks. ? 
  
 just visited Schiit site...with all the new version 2 tube amps coming out at sub$500,
 one key competitive aspect will be how well this ELIZE handle low impedence cans,
 (most OTLs can handle high impedence cans pretty well i presume? ).
  
 where is that Hynos boy...u cant be walking the dog for 3 hours???


----------



## hypnos1

lukeap69 said:


> What, we've waited for so long and you are hanging us on the air?
> 
> Come one, we're as excited as you are...


 
  
 SORRY...blame "SHE who must be obeyed" - I always do, lol! (Glad to hear you're as excited as me...but are you just as much of a nervous wreck, mon ami?!!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...The best things are worth waiting for, non?..(See below!)...
  


lorspeaker said:


> does it come with stock NOS tubes...save a few bucks. ?
> 
> just visited Schiit site...with all the new version 2 tube amps coming out at sub$500,
> one key competitive aspect will be how well this ELIZE handle low impedence cans,
> ...


 
  
 Would that that's all I have to do ,L...even if I don't _have_ a dog! And making that video was more of an ordeal than I thought - and even then it's less than overwhelming! In fact I still haven't got it fit for youtube as yet, so I am posting some photos first.
  
 By the way, no low-z cans I'm afraid - it will need those with deeper wallets than mine to do the comparison honours...come on down folks!!
  
 Anyway, enough of this frivolity...my first glimpses of the new arrival (and I think she's GORGEOUS!!) :
  


  
 Well, *I* think she's gorgeous anyway...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Sorry the photos could have been better - short on time and decent light. And my last one - of her side-by-side with my LD MKIV SE -  wouldn't even upload...too large a file size! So that will have to wait 'til next time.
  
 Anyway, I've only managed the shortest of listens as of yet, but am very impressed already - especially as everything can't have had a great deal of burn-in yet...and 'just' stock tubes in situ. It will be weekend before I can really put her through her paces unfortunately, so a further wait for any serious impressions is in order I'm afraid...I think you can all appreciate this is no small task to complete to any really useful degree!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 So now I shall try to get the video sorted...it's gonna be a LONG night!!


----------



## hypnos1

Hi everyone.
  
 Have just postponed uploading the video to youtube - I need to wait for Lukasz's reply to the fact that at the moment the 6080 tube won't in fact fit!...the recess is too deep for the pins to reach, and the hole not wide enough for its extra-wide base.
 So obviously either the socket would need to be raised or an extender provided...ah well, another headache for the poor guy...but it is still early days after all, and nothing _too_ problematic - hopefully! All will be well...
  
 Given it's now midnight here, answers should be forthcoming tomorrow...
  
 So it's goodnight from me...just one more track before I crash!


----------



## john57

Sounds like the same issue I have with my Little Dot VI+ with the front tubes if using the new expensive Chinese tubes that have the extra large brass base.  Normally not a issue with the NOS tubes I have on hand.


----------



## Lorspeaker

hypnos1 said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Have just postponed uploading the video to youtube - I need to wait for Lukasz's reply to the fact that at the moment the 6080 tube won't in fact fit!...the recess is too deep for the pins to reach, and the hole not wide enough for its extra-wide base.
> So obviously either the socket would need to be raised or an extender provided...ah well, another headache for the poor guy...but it is still early days after all, and nothing _too_ problematic - hopefully! All will be well...
> ...


 
  
  
 a piece of cake....bring out your blowtorch


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> SORRY...blame "SHE who must be obeyed" - I always do, lol! (Glad to hear you're as excited as me...but are you just as much of a nervous wreck, mon ami?!!..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Looks great H1! Looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## Synthax

What is the estimated impedance range for headphones?


----------



## Synthax

Actually, just this moment enjoying very much Lampizator totally tube staged DAC + Espressivo from Mr.Feliks + Modded DT150 Beyerdynamic studio vocal monitoring headphones. Meybe not perfect but great fullfilled sound, with great timbre, perfect natural phrase decay, perfect reverbs... Zero upsampling, local and global feedbacks, zero op-amps, filterings and so on. Just current flowing through the tubes 
  
 But waiting for impressions with Elise, already want to have it for its look !


----------



## i luvmusic 2

So how did they test  the AMP if the 6080 would not fit?
  
 That means was not tested with the 6080.


----------



## hypnos1

The video is done and on youtube : 
  
 Thanks for your encouragement guys...now the _real _hard work starts (mind you, I feel like I've been through the wringer already!...and I haven't had to build the darned thing!!) -  ie. trying different drivers; powers;driver/power combinations etc etc. And I haven't even yet been able to see properly what stock can do...
  
 However, early impressions have caught me somewhat off guard...coming from the LittleDot MKIV SE (with C3GS drivers and GEC CV2523 powers) and what was a very polished performance, I wasn't really quite ready for such a different sound...I was expecting just "more of the same"...WRONG!  At first I wasn't sure if it was a positive difference or less so, but after a while 'adjusting' to it I realised it was the much greater dynamic element to the sound that unbalanced me. I had become accustomed to the lighter, somewhat more delicate presentation of the LD combo - and now I was literally being 'knocked off my perch'!
  
 The bass and lower mids were doing that 'bone-shaking' trick...helped no doubt by the Beyer T1s, and the overall dynamism was confirmed by one of my (now) main test tracks for dynamic range handling/energy/cohesion of complex sound mix/pure dynamism - ie. "Battle", from the music soundtrack of 'Gladiator'. I was literally "blown away". So this introduced me to a much "fuller" type of sound, and was very exciting.
  
 But what about much more delicate offerings? I have yet to fully assess this quality, but a small taste from the final bars of Mary Fahl's 'Goin' Home' (from the 'Gods and Generals' soundtrack) had me wanting a bit more of the LD combo's delicate finesse in the upper mids/ treble arena. However, I have yet to check this to any meaningful degree, and is being totally unfair on tubes that are just nowhere in the same league. I have no doubt whatsoever that when I spoil the Elise with such tubes, I shall once again be in total awe.
  
 It is frustrating in the extreme that I can't do that just yet - I MUST give the stock tubes a fair trial first. But I do have to admit that already they are giving a stellar performance - an amp that can do this with very modest tubes (the drivers probably being more so than the 6N13S powers) has to be fairly special, I would suspect...
  
 Anyway, the weekend is coming and I fear my poor ears and head are in for a battering....pity me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...But it's all in a good cause...


----------



## JamieMcC

Just about to take a look at the video I dropped a socket saver on the floor today and it struck me as a easy solution for extending the sockets upwards if you really wanted to roll some 6080's


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> So how did they test  the AMP if the 6080 would not fit?
> 
> That means was not tested with the 6080.


 
  
 Hi ilm2.
  
 Yes indeed...obviously not tested with the 6080 and certain (wrong) assumptions made. However, Lukasz is on the case and so should have an answer for us soon. Fear not, mon ami...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> The video is done and on youtube :
> 
> Thanks for your encouragement guys...now the _real _hard work starts (mind you, I feel like I've been through the wringer already!...and I haven't had to build the darned thing!!) -  ie. trying different drivers; powers;driver/power combinations etc etc. And I haven't even yet been able to see properly what stock can do...
> 
> ...




 Congrats! very nice i enjoyed watching it,THANKS!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > So how did they test  the AMP if the 6080 would not fit?
> ...


 
 Hopefully it's not much of a work for them.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

What i really want to see is the GUTS of the ELISE.


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Hopefully it's not much of a work for them.


 
  
 Hi again ilm2.
  
 Lukasz has been better than his word and has come back to me already....they are extremely sorry and are going to make an extender adapter that will ship with the amp AT NO EXTRA CHARGE. So good news for all 6080 fans!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 ps. Glad you enjoyed my feeble effort, lol!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > Hopefully it's not much of a work for them.
> ...


 
 That is a great news and hope to see more videos from you.


----------



## hypnos1

As I suspected, my unit hasn't had a very long burn-in yet, so I must be patient with my assessments. Have just found out the 6SN7s are the Russian NOS 6H5C version which, although reasonably priced, seem to be getting some good praise elsewhere in our related threads. And we all know how long those Russians need to give of their best!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. So developments are going to be even more interesting than I thought, it would appear...(especially as I have just received the supposed "crème de la crème" of these tubes - the metal-based Melz...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## JamieMcC

hypnos1 said:


> As I suspected, my unit hasn't had a very long burn-in yet, so I must be patient with my assessments. Have just found out the 6SN7s are the Russian NOS 6H5C version which, although reasonably priced, seem to be getting some good praise elsewhere in our related threads. And we all know how long those Russians need to give of their best!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 One of these 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 paired with the GEC round base is a favourite for listening to my the vinyl rig


----------



## hypnos1

jamiemcc said:


> One of these
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi JMcC.
  
 Looks like good things are a'comin, lol...


----------



## MIKELAP

Thanks for taking the time to make the video lots of work im sure .Except for the transformer cover looks like its pretty much the size of the mk4 i was expecting a bigger footprint. I will look up the size of the MK4 .You say they will send you extenders to use with the 6080 tubes but do they plan to widen the holes i measured the tubes and looks like from looking at the pictures the holes need to be atleast 1/4¨ inch bigger for the 6080 tubes to fit with a bit of clearance .Personnally the 6080 tubes i really dont use much anyway .But i would think they will fix this issue in the future All in all i like the tube configuration and the face similar to my  Burson  Conductor simple and a nice big  knob to boot . Looking forward to more impressions later on ,and a look inside if possible. Enjoy .


----------



## MIKELAP

I checked the size of the MK4 never expected it to be approx.1 3/4¨inches wider than a MK3.  MK3 is 6 7/8¨wide and MK4 8 5/8 approx. Hmmm...


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Thanks for taking the time to make the video lots of work im sure .Except for the transformer cover looks like its pretty much the size of the mk4 i was expecting a bigger footprint. I will look up the size of the MK4 .You say they will send you extenders to use with the 6080 tubes but do they plan to widen the holes i measured the tubes and looks like from looking at the pictures the holes need to be atleast 1/4¨ inch bigger for the 6080 tubes to fit with a bit of clearance .Personnally the 6080 tubes i really dont use much anyway .But i would think they will fix this issue in the future All in all i like the tube configuration and the face similar to my  Burson  Conductor simple and a nice big  knob to boot . Looking forward to more impressions later on ,and a look inside if possible. Enjoy .


 
  
 Hi MIKELAP.
  
 With the sockets in effect much higher, it won't matter about the wider base of the 6080...it should clear the case, no?
  
 My experience with this amp has me recalling your own comparison between the LD and your Woo...the 'difference' and the fuller sound...
  
 I too am loving this neat, understated face panel...everything else too, actually!
  
 As for later impressions...what a difference another 12 hours can make...my previous remarks about finer detail in the upper range I am having to retract already. UNBELIEVABLE. It is in fact now present, and along with better transient response kicking in, the air and space I have come to love is MUCH more apparent. And with that deep bass getting even tighter, I am almost (?!) lost for words. How these modestly priced tubes can be delivering such a sound is rather astounding...especially after the kinds of MUCH more expensive tubes we have been using this past year and more in our LD rolling!  I never imagined the Feliks guys could come up with something that would perform in this way at anywhere near this price point...and the burn-in (not to mention rolling!) has only just started.
  
 Ah well, time for bed...gotta get ready for the weekend marathon...


----------



## sgbwill2

Just subbed to this thread. Found it a bit late but looks like I found it just at the right time seen as you have just received the first model. Looks very fancy and am looking forward to more impressions from you and others who purchase successive models. I'm very curious to how it sounds compared to the La Figaro 339 as mine new was $580 which is in roughly the same ball park as the Elise though I guess I will have to wait for that .


----------



## Acapella11

Thanks for the video H1! Looks good and the size comparison is surprising, I would have thought that she is a larger unit! Well done.


----------



## Lorspeaker

and i tot Hynos is a college kid....
 messing with soldering irons, blowtorches.. hehe.
  
 manicured fingernails...ticked....
 manicured garden....ticked,
 tidy living room...ticked...
 great demeanor, composed voice..ticked
 Flying colors for a first vid !!
  
 ok......i need to know the *width* of this blackmetal amp.
 i am short on real estate to the left of my armchair.


----------



## hypnos1

A big thanks to all for your kind comments...much appreciated - by me AND the Feliks guys. We got there in the end, lol!
  
 Lorspeaker  -  College kid? I wish!...Can hardly even remember my college days..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...except that life seemed much simpler then, aaahh...(If you can wait, the garden will look MUCH better in the Spring - especially when the Rhodos are all out!).
                        As for the amp's dimensions, they are  :  197mm W; 280mm D; 72mm H (the front panel being 60mm).
  
 A11  -  Yes, not as large a footprint as thought...but big enough!... "Nicely proportioned" I would like to say.
  
 sgbwill2  -  Glad you've found us...better late than never! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. All I can say is you must have had a good bit of luck getting the LF 339 for that kind of money - they're $659 (old version) on ebay.com, which means more like $790 (or more) with average taxes. So for us in the EU, there's NO contest. And for you guys out West, you would have the added taxes etc. on the extra $160 over and above the $499 Elise (but I appreciate you will have shipping to add, if the LF's is free). So not really the same ball park, methinks!
  
 synthax  -  Will ask Lukasz for recommended impedance range, but would suspect 32 to 600ohm.
  
  
 Back to first impressions, and although it is still relatively early days I feel I must add to my previous comments after more burn-in. I am now in fact experiencing some very mixed emotions - this amp (still with stock tubes) is now delivering more than the LD with power tubes that alone would now cost more than the Elise, driven by $100 worth of C3GSs. So my head is going in all sorts of directions at the moment - amazement/joy/exhilaration, but also sadness - at the fact that after a year of experimenting with numerous tubes/adapter making/external power supply provision/MONEY! and occasional (costly) disaster, along comes this upstart and blows it all right out of the water...I don't know whether to hug Lukasz or kick him!! (Which of course means I would have to kick myself, lol!)...Deep breath...I'll KISS him after all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...as I write this I have some of my favourite music filling my head, and I never thought after hearing it hundreds of times already that I would be stopped in my tracks...enough said...
  
 As this post is long enough already I shall go into more specifics later (had better pay a bit more attention to the good lady before I'm in the dog house - again!).


----------



## sgbwill2

hypnos1 said:


> sgbwill2  -  Glad you've found us...better late than never!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I live in the UK and luckily never got taxed due to me requesting them to value the item and ship it at a price low enough not to be taxed by customs. And on top of that the shipping was free which is crazy seen as the amp weighs around 10kg. And the $570 price was because it was on offer at the time but seems like that has ended now. A steal in my opinion considering how amazing this amp is; even for $659 I would say it is a bargain .


----------



## Synthax

Well, there is no boutique parts (cables, antivibration pads, granite slabs etc...) that could bring as big sound quality improvement to some audio gear than simple good solid engineering.


----------



## Acapella11

Hey H1, I am sure you are enjoying her as she gets better and better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Do you think you can comment on resolution and bass as compared to LD IVSE, using the same tubes of course?


----------



## Lorspeaker

the elise is one inch wider than my darkvoice.....
 one of my gears will go over the cliff if she bunks in


----------



## hypnos1

sgbwill2 said:


> I live in the UK and luckily never got taxed due to me requesting them to value the item and ship it at a price low enough not to be taxed by customs. And on top of that the shipping was free which is crazy seen as the amp weighs around 10kg. And the $570 price was because it was on offer at the time but seems like that has ended now. A steal in my opinion considering how amazing this amp is; even for $659 I would say it is a bargain .


 
  
 Hi sgbwill2...that, I fear, is playing a VERY dodgy game...not all customs people are that gullible! I think you were just very fortunate - there are those who have been pounced on HARD by trying to pull that trick (which is why many sellers now tell you NOT to ask them to do this - with good reason). I once had a fairly expensive item that the seller valued really low, but when the customs bill came I had a real shock...just my luck, lol!


synthax said:


> Well, there is no boutique parts (cables, antivibration pads, granite slabs etc...) that could bring as big sound quality improvement to some audio gear than simple good solid engineering.


 
  
 Right on the button, S! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


acapella11 said:


> Hey H1, I am sure you are enjoying her as she gets better and better
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi A11.
  
 Both superior, even at present with just stock tubes...I simply cannot believe it (didn't actually _want_ to at first to be honest, given - as you well know! - my adoration for the C3GS + GEC CV2523 sound in the LD). Tomorrow I shall see what the GECs and some higher grade 6SN7s (including the Melz 6H8C) bring to the table...would have done so tonight, but I'm not pushing my luck with "er indoors"!!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


lorspeaker said:


> the elise is one inch wider than my darkvoice.....
> one of my gears will go over the cliff if she bunks in


 
  
 Hi L.
  
 Does your DV have 1 or 2 powers/drivers?  I would suspect if not 2 of each then the Elise will drive your low-impedance cans rather better. So there could well be a casualty in the offing!


----------



## Acapella11

While you are waiting for more news on the Elise prototype, you could read this interesting abstract about the 6AS7G power tube in hifi amps: http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/The_6AS7G.php


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> While you are waiting for more news on the Elise prototype, you could read this interesting abstract about the 6AS7G power tube in hifi amps: http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/The_6AS7G.php


 
  
 Hi again A11...Have sneaked away for a couple of minutes!
  
 VERY interesting...not to mention encouraging. They too seem to hold the Russian version in fairly high esteem, and I must admit I am already very impressed with them....so how on Earth can I go to bed without further checking? - I wouldn't be able to sleep, lol!..I shall just have to pop in the GECs for a quickie before bed...(and perhaps the PsVane CV181T-IIs to partner....and perhaps?....oh dear...).


----------



## JamieMcC

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again A11...Have sneaked away for a couple of minutes!
> 
> VERY interesting...not to mention encouraging. They too seem to hold the Russian version in fairly high esteem, and I must admit I am already very impressed with them....so how on Earth can I go to bed without further checking? - I wouldn't be able to sleep, lol!..I shall just have to pop in the GECs for a quickie before bed...(and perhaps the PsVane CV181T-IIs to partner....and perhaps?....oh dear...).


 

 Colin congratulation it sounds like you are really enjoying your Elise, tube rolling is a curse I know all to well having now curbed the habit I have been finding it hard to let go of some of my own stock pile that's slowly built up. I still get a excited when a new find arrives especially if it is from the 1940's or 50's its just a bit mind bending  to think they have survived for 60-70 years at all let alone sound amazing. Unwrapping a old tube from its original packaging followed by the anticipation of whether it will work let alone sound any good is a experience to savour.
  
 I wonder if you might pass on a comment or two when you get round to trying your Melz 6H8C I have a love hate relation ship with my one. It took a while to find a good tube to match with it and sounds at its best when listening to my vinyl set up.
  
 How are finding the treble on the Elise with your T1's? 
  
 Cheers
  
 Jamie


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> As for later impressions...what a difference another 12 hours can make...my previous remarks about finer detail in the upper range I am having to retract already. UNBELIEVABLE. It is in fact now present, and along with better transient response kicking in, the air and space I have come to love is MUCH more apparent. And with that deep bass getting even tighter, I am almost (?!) lost for words. How these modestly priced tubes can be delivering such a sound is rather astounding...especially after the kinds of MUCH more expensive tubes we have been using this past year and more in our LD rolling!  I never imagined the Feliks guys could come up with something that would perform in this way at anywhere near this price point...and the burn-in (not to mention rolling!) has only just started.


 
  
 It is important to remember that your Little Dot was never designed to run a pair of 6AS7s. Yes, you managed to fit them in with an external heater power supply, but still they are starved for current. In a sense, one might say the LD runs them rather gently. But in an amp that was designed from the ground up to run them hard, even cheap 6AS7s really shine. And I imagine your GECs will be even more astounding, again, in a circuit designed and optimized to run these tubes.
  
 Enjoy


----------



## Lorspeaker

DV336se...one 6as7...one 6sn7,
Doubling up will triple up the bassblast on my LCD2!?

I defintely know the bass on the k812 sounded perforated on dv336
When playing copland's Fanfare to the Common Man by Eiji Oue.


----------



## gibosi

lorspeaker said:


> DV336se...one 6as7...one 6sn7,
> Doubling up will triple up the bassblast on my LCD2!?
> 
> I defintely know the bass on the k812 sounded perforated on dv336
> When playing copland's Fanfare to the Common Man by Eiji Oue.


 
  
 I seriously doubt that there would be any difference with one or two 6SN7s. But I am inclined to think that two 6AS7s are better than one.


----------



## Johnnysound

gibosi said:


> It is important to remember that your Little Dot was never designed to run a pair of 6AS7s. Yes, you managed to fit them in with an external heater power supply, but still they are starved for current. In a sense, one might say the LD runs them rather gently. But in an amp that was designed from the ground up to run them hard, even cheap 6AS7s really shine. And I imagine your GECs will be even more astounding, again, in a circuit designed and optimized to run these tubes.
> 
> Enjoy


 
 Yes sir ¡¡    this is what I think about  it.    I am in no way a tube expert, but 30 years into the audio hobby teachs you one or two things. First,  in general terms power supplies are extremely important if you want  sound quality.  The consensus is that the "ultimate" level with the LDMKIII  amps require some mods to fit  external power supplies, so you can feed 2.5 amps to each  or 6080 family power tubes.  I never tried this mod myself,  but  if the people here says that this is the best, then it is.   You put 6.5 volts and 2.5 amperes into each tube, all by the book, and  gibosi says it better than me:   "still,  they are starved for current".    I do not know the technical reasons, but  if the power supply is capable of high current,  far above what is required, and also have somo other virtues,  then we have "headroom",   and don't ask me why, but the component will sound a lot better: relaxed, effortless,  open, unstrained...
The fact that the Elise sounds so good with "cheap" russian tubes is even more relevant,  and I read that  the (real) Svetlana Winged "C"   6AS7G, St. Petersburg Factory old stock, is a terrific tube.    
  
At first glimpse in the Elise, we have a serious power transformer. I did my homework and some Feliks-Audio amplifiers feature Ogonowsky transformers, custom- wound hand made, super nice  trafos made  in a small factory in Poland  by Mr. Ogonowsky, an innovator and kind of a "Guru"in Poland for his transformers.   To Feliks Audio:   I want this one in the Elise , non negotiable.    I really hope that the Elise have one of these babies, and not an OEM thing.  Will sign up for one  at once....


----------



## hypnos1

jamiemcc said:


> Colin congratulation it sounds like you are really enjoying your Elise, tube rolling is a curse I know all to well having now curbed the habit I have been finding it hard to let go of some of my own stock pile that's slowly built up. I still get a excited when a new find arrives especially if it is from the 1940's or 50's its just a bit mind bending  to think they have survived for 60-70 years at all let alone sound amazing. Unwrapping a old tube from its original packaging followed by the anticipation of whether it will work let alone sound any good is a experience to savour.
> 
> I wonder if you might pass on a comment or two when you get round to trying your Melz 6H8C I have a love hate relation ship with my one. It took a while to find a good tube to match with it and sounds at its best when listening to my vinyl set up.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Jamie. Yes, tube rolling certainly is addictive...and EXPENSIVE! But great fun - and cheaper(?) than golf...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I don't have your "top dog" round holes Melz, unfortunately, but perhaps a step up at least from the general 6H8C?...which I must admit is doing a very fine job at present.
  
 My 'potentially sibilant' recordings are easier on the ear with the Elise and T1s - thank goodness. I probably won't need to try loquah's (simple) mod after all. I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that the "problem" is 99% down to the recording - either _poor_ miking/engineering, or _deliberate_ engineering to cater to those who crave an extremely bright sound. I feel trying to 'compensate' post-production for this may possibly also take away a certain amount of sparkle and air, so I am happy (at the moment!) to leave well alone. I don't want to do _anything_ to these T1s, I'm loving them so much. Later down the road I shall pop the HD650s back in, just for interest's sake...
  


gibosi said:


> It is important to remember that your Little Dot was never designed to run a pair of 6AS7s. Yes, you managed to fit them in with an external heater power supply, but still they are starved for current. In a sense, one might say the LD runs them rather gently. But in an amp that was designed from the ground up to run them hard, even cheap 6AS7s really shine. And I imagine your GECs will be even more astounding, again, in a circuit designed and optimized to run these tubes.
> 
> Enjoy


 
  
 Hi g...yes indeed, you're right of course...which is precisely why I approached the Feliks guys in the first place, lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. After our results with the LDs I was eager for more! It certainly is eye-opening just what the correct topology does for relatively modest tubes. Having said that, it was equally eye-opening what our rolling accomplished in a modest amp!...
  
 Which brings me to a rather surprising (for me, anyway) discovery...last night I just had to have a quick taste of the GECs, and my initial response was one of slight confusion - expecting much "better" sound, it was rather more "different". I'm obviously going to need a LOT longer proper comparison, but initially the presentation was a bit lighter, with apparent tad less dynamism. A bit more air and soundstage, but not massively so...and was not exactly blown totally away by its comparison to the modest Russians!..mmmm...I've obviously quite a task on hand sorting this one out as well....more midnight oil (and household murmurings!)...What I did notice however was that I could turn up the volume with less stress on the ears, which can sometimes be a bonus. (Perhaps the GECs will "shine brighter" with different drivers, but that will have to wait I'm afraid).
  
 What seems to be coming apparent though is that people will NOT have to be spending 100s of dollars on tubes to achieve a stellar sound - particularly the powers - stock is THAT good..(I'm only glad I didn't pay anywhere near what a pair of the GEC variants now cost!!). 
  
 Looks like I'm on a bit of a steep learning curve with this new baby...you more experienced guys are gonna have to help me out with this, just as I have learned a good bit from the LDTAVTRolling Guide guys this past year and more..._please!!..._
  


gibosi said:


> I seriously doubt that there would be any difference with one or two 6SN7s. But I am inclined to think that two 6AS7s are better than one.


 
  
 This question certainly has a few heads scratching (even Lukasz's!) - all they know is that it _did_ seem to have a beneficial effect on practical listening, and were happy to go to the extra expense (and trouble) of using two...so we shall have to wait and see, it would appear!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


johnnysound said:


> Yes sir ¡¡    this is what I think about  it.    I am in no way a tube expert, but 30 years into the audio hobby teachs you one or two things. First,  in general terms power supplies are extremely important if you want  sound quality.  The consensus is that the "ultimate" level with the LDMKIII  amps require some mods to fit  external power supplies, so you can feed 2.5 amps to each  or 6080 family power tubes.  I never tried this mod myself,  but  if the people here says that this is the best, then it is.   You put 6.5 volts and 2.5 amperes into each tube, all by the book, and  gibosi says it better than me:   "still,  they are starved for current".    I do not know the technical reasons, but  if the power supply is capable of high current,  far above what is required, and also have somo other virtues,  then we have "headroom",   and don't ask me why, but the component will sound a lot better: relaxed, effortless,  open, unstrained...
> The fact that the Elise sounds so good with "cheap" russian tubes is even more relevant,  and I read that  the (real) Svetlana Winged "C"   6AS7G, St. Petersburg Factory old stock, is a terrific tube.
> 
> At first glimpse in the Elise, we have a serious power transformer. I did my homework and some Feliks-Audio amplifiers feature Ogonowsky transformers, custom- wound hand made, super nice  trafos made  in a small factory in Poland  by Mr. Ogonowsky, an innovator and kind of a "Guru"in Poland for his transformers.   To Feliks Audio:   I want this one in the Elise , non negotiable.    I really hope that the Elise have one of these babies, and not an OEM thing.  Will sign up for one  at once....


 
  
 Hi J.
  
 Power supply certainly does seem to have a surprising effect on overall performance/sound, and the Elise's transformer definitely looks the business....
  
 You really have done your homework - well done!...VERY interesting info on the "Ogonowsky" unit, but it seems to me this would be something reserved only for MUCH more expensive equipment. Let's hope they've pulled yet another rabbit out of the hat and managed to accommodate such an animal in the Elise - or one very much like it... another question for Lukasz!
  
 ps. Despite being a very large transformer, the housing doesn't get overly hot, even after 6+ hrs...and the entire case gets just slightly warm...which is nice to know...


----------



## Rossliew

More detailed impressions, please!!


----------



## hypnos1

rossliew said:


> More detailed impressions, please!!


 
  
 On it, R...illness in the house has impeded progress somewhat I'm afraid, but am now about to put the Russians back in and try a few different tracks to get a better idea...timing of the arrival couldn't have been worse, I fear...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (I too am champing at the bit, lol!!)...


----------



## Rossliew

hypnos1 said:


> On it, R...illness in the house has impeded progress somewhat I'm afraid, but am now about to put the Russians back in and try a few different tracks to get a better idea...timing of the arrival couldn't have been worse, I fear...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Hope its nothing serious! Then i shall not place unduly pressure on you further


----------



## Acapella11

Hi H1, hoping you and / or your wife will be recovering well.
  
 As a suggestion for the Elise thread, you could edit the first post to update the interested reader either with your pictures, video, impressions or bullet points with links to the respective posts. This would have been also helpful in the LDTAVTRG thread but not possible due to Dept_of_Alchemy's inactivity.


----------



## hypnos1

rossliew said:


> Hope its nothing serious! Then i shall not place unduly pressure on you further


 
  
 Hi R - AT LAST I feel I can give some more specific findings...and thanks for your concern. The good lady is thankfully on the mend now...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


acapella11 said:


> Hi H1, hoping you and / or your wife will be recovering well.
> 
> As a suggestion for the Elise thread, you could edit the first post to update the interested reader either with your pictures, video, impressions or bullet points with links to the respective posts. This would have been also helpful in the LDTAVTRG thread but not possible due to Dept_of_Alchemy's inactivity.


 
  
 And thanks to you too A11...it's been a difficult couple of months - and I'M not the one with the ailments (but still suffering, lol!)...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Still, hopefully all should be well for Christmas...In one way the Elise delay was unfortunate, but in another gave welcome distraction...(And I shall do as you mention re the first post...good thinking...).
  
 Anyway folks, here are my own (still quite early, really) impressions : given MY ears, and MY gear - ie Audiolab 8200CD (with ESS Sabre DAC); pure silver interconnects; Tacima mains conditioner; shielded mains cables with wattgate connectors and unswitched mains socket, all with (don't laugh!) upgraded fuses (I'll do anything within reason - and pocket - to squeeze every last bit out of decent equipment, no matter how insane some may think it, lol!). And don't forget the Beyer T1s...
  
 First I shall give my overall take on what is delivered, then rather more specifics...
  
        To begin with, you notice the sheer absence of any noise whatsoever, even with the volume knob at max - assuming of course you don't have any nasty environmental gremlins spoiling your parade.This is immediately a most welcoming sign...
  
 When under way, as I mentioned previously, what hits you straight off is the sheer energy and dynamism, and you feel on course for some real excitement - which this amp never fails to deliver.
 It manages to do this in a very cohesive, balanced way - with no part of the spectrum dominating excessively. The stock power tubes are perhaps slightly biased towards the lower frequencies (compared to the GECs, for example), but this in no way detracts from response in the upper ranges. Bass hits hard and deep, with good detail and control. Mids seem just right, again with good detail - no excessive recessing - and the T1s certainly do them justice. Treble has excellent detail and extension which, as before, combined with fine transient response and overall extremely good clarity give a soundstage that is wide, with good depth and height - my T1s, being SEMI-open don't seem to give quite as wide a stage as FULLY-open would (especially cans like the HD800), but the effect is a tad more intimate as a result...the GECs, as I shall elaborate on more at the end, do however provide extra stage - all round.
  
 Voice and instrument positioning are exceptional, along with separation that gives 'air' to them all, without spoiling position or interrelation...again, VERY cohesive and nicely balanced. Both voice and solo instrument  come over as positioned just 'right' - not too close, not too distant, regardless of the degree of accompaniment.
  
 Tonal range is extensive - both vocal and instrumental. There is sweetness where there should be sweet, and raw power where there should be - spine-tingling, bone-rattling (as much as headphones are capable, that is!) drama...
  
 (Oh dear, this is taking me much longer than I thought, so I'm afraid I shall have to continue after dinner...SORRY!)...back soon...


----------



## mordy

Hi hypnos 1,
  
 Hope all is well.
  
 Very interesting to read your first impressions. When you have finished writing it up, I would appreciate it if you could also write up a comparison with the modded Little Dot and your impressions on how they compare and differ - thanks.
  
 My own personal experience is that it takes a little while to sort out the new impressions, especially if they are more subtle.


----------



## hypnos1

OK...Back to work - but enjoyable toil, at least...now where was I? Ah yes...
  
 Along with the previous comments pace, rhythm and timing are spot on; attack is crisp, notes sustain nicely with good even decay which, combined with what seem endless harmonics on acoustic guitar and piano strings, are quite delightful.
  
 Now for a few specifics  :
  
 1.   'Battle' - music soundtrack from 'Gladiator'....I can confirm my previous comments re the sheer dynamism of this piece. I personally feel much of Hans Zimmer's work here is (almost!) the equal of Wagner at his best. The gradual build-up of tension sends tingles down my spine, and his orchestration (with the added benefit of modern effects-producing equipment and a genius of a sound engineer!) is simply a Masterclass in its genre (IMHO). The crescendo of brass and percussion is handled with aplomb by the amp, and even when a multitude of instruments (plus effects) join in control is maintained in the face of massive onslaught (in line with the actual film scene!). Elise keeps up with the interminable pace - which is almost too much for any poor brain! In contrast the slower, quieter passages are handled with absolute finesse, Elise coping effortlessly with the full dynamic range when these meet their exact opposite in full throttle.
  
 2.   Female vocal :
                   Barbra Streisand - 'Evergreen'. Like her or not, this is a voice that has extremely good range, which (IMO) doesn't need too much studio manipulation to deliver a very impressive gamut of style/message/emotion. And I think this track does justice to all these elements, as does the amp - from her restrained lower register to what can sometimes approach a harshness in the upper (especially with lesser equipment). Elise keeps everything under control, without impinging on the smooth flow of the piece, or its emotional impact.
                   Mary Fahl - 'Goin' Home', from the soundtrack of 'Gods and Generals'. Although with nowhere near the range of Barbra, this gal has tremendous emotion in her voice, which she uses to the full in this piece....absolutely perfect for the film itself of course. Again, she is delivered with wonderful 'natural' positioning and is more than a match for the orchestral (semi) assault! Harmonious balance is once more the order of the day - she could so easily be pushed into the background...
                   Angela Gheorgiu - scenes from 'Tosca'. There are moments in her arias when things could get a bit painful to the ears, especially in the final dramatic scenes of impending doom. Throughout the opera her voice is carried from low to high - both in scale and emotion - and you are led by the nose (or rather, ears!) into all the nuances (albeit fairly obvious ones) of plot and artistic direction.
                   Annie Lennox - 'No more I love You's', and Alison Moyet - 'All Cried Out'. I chose these because a. I like the songs, and b. Despite (or because of) the heavy studio voice manipulation, they can sound either plain 'pop' tunes or something much more special when reproduced over good equipment. These numbers have actually been produced very well, once you get over the 'manipulated' sound, and the amp copes especially well with Moyet's potentially VERY harsh final delivery. One can enjoy the power and excitement of the piece without wincing _too_ much!
  
 3.   Male vocal :
                   Jonas Kaufmann (Tenor) - 'E Lucevan le Stelle' from 'Tosca', and 'Vesti la giubba' from 'Pagliacci'. This fellow has just the most amazing voice, with an uncanny range of tone and quality of timbre that is almost unique. And to hear these reproduced so faithfully is indeed a revelation...sheer magic. I love this amp even if just for what it does for this voice alone...
                   Andreas Scholl (Countertenor) - 'Che faro senza Euridice' from 'Orpheus ed Euridice'. Another absolutely amazing voice, the full beauty of which can only really be shown to its best by very good equipment. His rising crescendo is handled with utmost fidelity and remains as smooth as silk. And although this type of voice is never going to hit the lower registers(
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





!!), you still get an essence of richness that normally is associated with a baritone/bass!...Uncanny...
                   Dmitri Hvorostovsky (Baritone/bass) - Various Russian Folk/Classical Solo pieces. There are few voices to match this one in the baritone register. His power, richness, timbre are simply superb...and once again this amp does full justice throughout his vast range, from almost demonic fervour to an engaging delicacy (for a baritone!).
  
 4.  Various folk/light rock/instrumental.
                   From Dire Straits 'Love Over Gold', through acoustic/electronic Celtic Folk (Clannad), Jim Croce 'Time in a Bottle' to Genesis 'Duke' and Supertramp 'Breakfast in America - 2010 remix (amazing job!) all the above abilities of the amp come into play. Acoustic guitar is particularly impressive, as showcased in Clannads' 'Magical Ring' and 'Past Present'. Once again the sharpness of attack on the strings to final decay is very well portrayed. This is also much evidenced in the guitars of Croce's piece - I never realised metal-stringed guitars could exhibit such tonal range and sustain some extremely nice harmonics (elementary really I suppose, given a piano's steel strings!).
                   Lastly - for the moment at least - I must mention 'The Alan Parsons Project' : 'Turn of a Friendly Card', and 'Genesis' : 'Duke'. Both of these albums contain tracks that test an amp's abilities to maintain tight control and clarity in the face of some really fast and/or fierce percussion combined with complex acoustic and electronic elements that cover really deep bass to the highest audible treble , not to mention voices somewhere in the melee!  The prime example of this (to my mind) is Genesis' 'Behind The Lines'. More a hurricane than a storm, things can go badly awry when trying to follow what's in this recording. This contains fast AND fierce full drum complement, the cymbals of which must take real ability/agility to remain intelligible. I'm glad to say the Elise manages this agility with ease, and for the first time I've been able to follow _almost_ all of it. The same goes for the furious drum rolls - each hit can be heard...no blurring or confusion here. Just clean, pure reproduction.
  
 5.  This should be Orchestral, but I'm afraid I've run out of time. Actually, I have already covered most of the prerequisites really. All the qualities of the amp I have mentioned are precisely what are needed for enjoying this genre. But I shall cover in more detail various pieces in the Classical repertoire next time...
  
      So hopefully this will give you at least some idea of what the Elise can deliver. I can honestly say there is NOTHING I do not like about it, either in generality or specifics. I am truly in awe of what the Feliks-Audio guys have managed to achieve at this extremely competitive price...way beyond my expectations even (and they were pretty high!). My immense thanks go out to them.
 I honestly believe no-one would be disappointed with this amp - on the contrary, I'm sure you would be equally surprised and delighted...
  
 ps.   I must add one more note....Although I may have hinted previously that the GECs didn't seem to be bringing a GREAT deal more to the table, with further listening I'm beginning to change my mind. As I am able to turn up the volume almost with impunity on these tubes (short of destroying my eardrums!), by doing so changes the ball game quite dramatically. The slight 'politeness' I mentioned takes on the full dynamism of the Russian tubes, and adds greater 3- dimensionality plus micro-detail to die for (not that the Russians were lacking in any way at all, lol!). Plus something that really got my head spinning - the male vocal lead in Genesis's 'Behind the Lines' has always been well-placed in the recording (with decent equipment) but had a very slight 'aloofness' to his voice. With the GECs in situ, he suddenly appeared as if surrounded by a protective 'cushion' of sound, from which he would occasionally almost float upwards into the air and then gradually descend once again. I almost thought I was hallucinating! I have NEVER experienced anything like this before in music production (apart that is from the soaring voices of a Church choir, but that's more obviously the ensuing tremendous echo/reflection - this was different), or REproduction...totally amazing, not to say _weird_ (and no, I hadn't been hitting the bottle or smoking something exotic!). So from now on, most of my listening is going to be with these beauties in the hot seat (well, not so hot actually!). And then we have some nice alternative drivers to try...the saga continues...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 pps.  These 6N13Ss put out a good bit more beef than the GECs, which bodes well for low-z cans I should have thought...
  
 Goodnight to you all...


----------



## Lorspeaker

That's the cloud of glory...glorious details...

well done bro...that beachhead into our coffers has been a success.
Will Feliks be putting out some specs for those into such...?


----------



## MIKELAP

I guess that would be the next step, an indept look at the insides and quality of parts used, all in good time im sure .Did i say i like it ,damm .now i know why guys have bedroom rigs livingroom rigs office rigs its because they have to many amps .Might have to export the Pioneer to the livingroom OH DEARRRR !!!!!


----------



## Acapella11

Thank you for your very detailed descriptions of your initial impressions. I think I know what your are getting at with the advantages of the GECs. Sounds similar to my recent LD MKIII 6SN7 power tube experience. 
If you compare the Elise with the LD MKIV, how would you describe the difference in signature?


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi hypnos 1,
> 
> Hope all is well.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy. Thanks...things are on the mend - just in time for Christmas, thankfully...
  
 Yes, it does indeed take a GOOD while to get the ears (and head!) around just what is happening with a new piece of equipment - and there's the added element of new headphones thrown into the ring...but I do feel I'm getting there...gradually...
  
 Hopefully part 2 of my findings will have given a bit more clue as to comparison with the LD, but I suppose for those who have followed progress in our rolling guide my best statement would be to take all I have posted on the C3GS/6AS7G combination and add much greater dynamics; even better control and transparency (which was already very impressive with that tube combo); more obvious PRaT; greater extension in the lower frequencies (actually bass with stock tubes hits surprisingly harder), MUCH quieter background - especially compared to our need for external power supply and regulation with the latest non-stock tubes...I say 'much' quieter - that is rather an understatement...what shook me first was the TOTAL lack of any kind of noise whatsoever. I NEVER had such total 'blackness' from the LD...near, with more 'conventional' tubes, but nothing to compare with the Elise. This of course helps to bring an even cleaner, clearer sound; better _apparent_ resolution and detail, with the then added benefit of better separation, space and imaging. And is what I am sure helped contribute to something I had never encountered before - ie the rather 'arresting' effect of a note (especially in the lower frequencies) suddenly coming to a halt, as if it had fallen off the edge of a cliff....the exact opposite of haunting decay. Fair took me by surprise, that's for sure! But _extremely_ effective, I must admit...
  
 So m, hopefully this gives a bit more of an idea of what the Elise delivers in comparison. I'm sure there will be much more involved as I experiment with different tubes...will keep you posted, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  


lorspeaker said:


> That's the cloud of glory...glorious details...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks L...I like your 'cloud of glory' - it was literally as if the voice had been carried on that cloud and then gently placed (not dropped!) back onto Earth...glorious indeed...
  


mikelap said:


> I guess that would be the next step, an indept look at the insides and quality of parts used, all in good time im sure .Did i say i like it ,damm .now i know why guys have bedroom rigs livingroom rigs office rigs its because they have to many amps .Might have to export the Pioneer to the livingroom OH DEARRRR !!!!!


 
  
 I thought you might like how this baby has turned out...and yes, I do pity the conundrum you may be in, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As for disembowelling the fair maiden, I fear it will not be I who carries this out - first, I haven't found any screws yet and second, Lukasz wishes to keep certain things about the unit "in house", for which I cannot blame him and would respect his wishes even if I _could_ get inside, lol!  So, sorry...
  


acapella11 said:


> Thank you for your very detailed descriptions of your initial impressions. I think I know what your are getting at with the advantages of the GECs. Sounds similar to my recent LD MKIII 6SN7 power tube experience.
> If you compare the Elise with the LD MKIV, how would you describe the difference in signature?


 
  
 Hi A11.
  
 Such experiences are what IMHO make life with tube amps much more interesting than SS...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Hopefully what I mentioned in reply to mordy gives a good idea on this score, because 'signature' had me scratching my head a little at first!...We have experienced such dramatic changes in the LDs with our endless rolling and modifications, it has had multiple personalities! I cannot even remember the precise sound given from stock configuration. I suppose really the fact that we achieved so many different types of sound so (relatively) easily must point to a very neutral starting point, no? So it appears 'neutral' is the best description here.
 As for the Elise, at present 'stock' sound (IMO) veers more to the warm side of neutral. But with the GECs in place, I would say only  _slightly _so. But then I might be getting a little misled by the greater dynamics! Not to mention the T1s...still early days!! (Things are getting rather complex at the moment  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...but absolutely fascinating, lol!


----------



## hypnos1

A quick update from Lukasz.
  
 As I suspected, the 'Ogonowsky' transformers are only used in the bigger, more expensive models...but apparently they have still very high quality ones made to order by another Polish
 manufacturer, so that's still good news IMHO...
  
 He has taken note of my suggestion to mark the function of the two pairs of rear sockets - so no more possible confusion there...
  
 Spec info is under preparation already, and should be completed very soon.
  
 'Bye for now...


----------



## Johnnysound

Thank you H1 for your first impressions.  Very detailed,  and I quote:  ...... " _What I did notice however was that I could turn up the volume with less stress on the ears, which can sometimes be a bonus. (Perhaps the GECs will "shine brighter" with different drivers, but that will have to wait I'm afraidI..."  _ If the amp sounds relaxed at high volumes,  with a silent background, now this is very nice ¡¡   The big PS helps a lot  here, I think.  If isolated from the tubes, even better.  
  
 As you said,   the drivers  will have  a definitive influence in sound character, of course.     Maybe the "fast" and detailed  soviet output tubes would benefit from a mellower input tube for a better balance.     Russian 6SN7s (6H8Cs) excel at  the frecuency extremes, but I have some small doubts in the mids.  And in the "ambience" department also.  The Melz tube is supossed to be superior to the standard ones.    I wonder what the "classic" 6SN7GTs will do in the Elise...a lot of  "tube rolling"  ahead ¡¡


----------



## Lorspeaker

low noise...low heat...small footprint...low cost...so far so good.
  
 n low distortion on low impedence cans will really get my attention/$$$
 Hynos...will u be getting a K812 for your christmas?


----------



## lukeap69

H1, Elise has surely captured my interest. Do you know anybody who has HD800? If she pairs well with the HD800 then she will be my next girlfriend.


----------



## Acapella11

I have got HD800s as well and I am looking forward in trying the Elise. My gut feeling is that it is going to be a very good match.


----------



## lukeap69

acapella11 said:


> I have got HD800s as well and I am looking forward in trying the Elise. My gut feeling is that it is going to be a very good match.



Nice. I will wait for your feedback then.


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> Hi A11.
> 
> Such experiences are what IMHO make life with tube amps much more interesting than SS...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi H1, thanks for the informative response. I agree that the MKIVSE is neutral, actually to the bone. Thanks for comparing them with the same tubes. In their properly driven state, those tubes now show much more of their real potential. Looking forward into your further ventures into Elise Wonderland


----------



## hypnos1

jamiemcc said:


> Colin congratulation it sounds like you are really enjoying your Elise, tube rolling is a curse I know all to well having now curbed the habit I have been finding it hard to let go of some of my own stock pile that's slowly built up. I still get a excited when a new find arrives especially if it is from the 1940's or 50's its just a bit mind bending  to think they have survived for 60-70 years at all let alone sound amazing. Unwrapping a old tube from its original packaging followed by the anticipation of whether it will work let alone sound any good is a experience to savour.
> 
> I wonder if you might pass on a comment or two when you get round to trying your Melz 6H8C I have a love hate relation ship with my one. It took a while to find a good tube to match with it and sounds at its best when listening to my vinyl set up.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Jamie (and for all interested parties!)....your interest in the Melz tube dovetails with Johnnysound's comments below, where I will be describing last night's revelation ('twas too late to post straight away, unfortunately). Mind you , it won't be precisely the right exercise, with just ONE Melz in the mix!...but it should be two in the New Year...
  


johnnysound said:


> Thank you H1 for your first impressions.  Very detailed,  and I quote:  ...... " _What I did notice however was that I could turn up the volume with less stress on the ears, which can sometimes be a bonus. (Perhaps the GECs will "shine brighter" with different drivers, but that will have to wait I'm afraidI..."  _ If the amp sounds relaxed at high volumes,  with a silent background, now this is very nice ¡¡   The big PS helps a lot  here, I think.  If isolated from the tubes, even better.
> 
> As you said,   the drivers  will have  a definitive influence in sound character, of course.     Maybe the "fast" and detailed  soviet output tubes would benefit from a mellower input tube for a better balance.     Russian 6SN7s (6H8Cs) excel at  the frecuency extremes, but I have some small doubts in the mids.  And in the "ambience" department also.  The Melz tube is supossed to be superior to the standard ones.    I wonder what the "classic" 6SN7GTs will do in the Elise...a lot of  "tube rolling"  ahead ¡¡


 
  
 Hi J....your timing couldn't have been better, or your comments more accurate (with certain provisos!).
  
 I didn't really feel mids were particularly lacking through the T1s, but when I changed the stock drivers I was in for a very big surprise - it should actually have been 2 Melzes, but one was crackling far too much to be safe so is being replaced (thankfully with no hesitation from the ebayer in the Ukraine). So to make up a pair, rather than use a 'stock' tube I put in one of my PsVane CV181TIIs - I didn't hesitate about going against perceived wisdom, as during our extensive rolling/experimentation in the LD Rolling Guide I once paired a PsV with a VT231 (used as powers) and found the combination far better than two of the same - the lighter sig of the PsV counterbalanced the heavier one of the VT231, WITHOUT there being any discernible imbalance through the headphones, amazingly enough. Obviously a different amp with different headphones might not be so forgiving, but it was worth a try...
 Anyway, the upshot is that I could not believe my ears...there weren't just more mids apparent, but bass was even deeper, treble extension was even greater and there was more detail across the entire frequency range. The delicate finesse and micro-detail in the highest frequencies were truly 'delicious' (this may not be a 'proper' sound description term, but that's the feeling it gave me, and I sometimes think more 'emotional' terms can convey musical content better than 'dry' ones IMHO).
 The extremely complex mix of sounds in one of my favourite test pieces - 'Battle', from 'Gladiator' - were all presented with even better clarity than before, with resultant widening of the soundstage and even greater impact. I was literally not prepared for such a change. And this was with the stock power tubes, not even the GECs!!...(But synergy can be a really unpredictable animal, so I wait to see what happens with these in situ...).
 And luckily, as before, there was no jarring imbalance coming through the T1s...everything remained nicely integrated and well-balanced.
  
 This confirms (predictably) that higher-tier tubes - especially with the drivers - are going to take the Elise to a level way above its price point, and give almost endless opportunities for those who like to 'roll', and within just this one family of tubes...the choice of 6SN7s (and direct equivalents) should keep most people happy for a VERY long time indeed, and enable 'fine tuning' to suit all tastes and preferences...which is PRECISELY what I was hoping for from the very outset, lol!!.
  
 So the next step of course is to see what 2 PsVanes do, but Christmas is upon us and will leave precious little time for further testing, more's the pity. But it'll soon be over!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
 (And then it'll be 2 Melzes - hopefully! And I will be able to get a better idea of what you are intimating, Jamie....wouldn't be anything to do with slight occasional background noise at all, would it?!).
  
 ps. Re ambience, this is a very tricky one when most of what we listen to has been recorded in a sterile studio. And especially when attempting to assess/analyse the music to death! Even recording live performances is fraught with difficulty in trying to convey the venue's ambience. I personally think rather than 'ambience', we are better guided by the 'emotion' that is conveyed when assessing different equipment...but then, I'm still only learning, lol! And so from now on I am going to try and do less 'analysing', and more 'listening'...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


lorspeaker said:


> low noise...low heat...small footprint...low cost...so far so good.
> 
> n low distortion on low impedence cans will really get my attention/$$$
> Hynos...will u be getting a K812 for your christmas?


 
  
 No such luck L...I'm all Christmased out I'm afraid!
  
 But another encouraging reminder from Lukasz is that whereas the 'Espressivo' was described as being 'fine with 32ohm headphones', the Elise - in Lukasz's words - "is actually designed to support low impedance much better"....
  


lukeap69 said:


> H1, Elise has surely captured my interest. Do you know anybody who has HD800? If she pairs well with the HD800 then she will be my next girlfriend.


 
  
 It looks like we will all be waiting with bated breath for Acapella11 (hopefully) to do the honours...but I suspect that given the basic sig of the amp and its abilities, it will be as good a pairing as with my T1s (and even possibly take things to a position that may appeal to those who have slight reservations about the 800s, without detracting from what lovers love about them...).


----------



## gibosi

I seem to remember that you have a pair of Sylvania VT231s? I encourage you to roll these in as drivers the next time you get some time alone with the Elise, as many of us have this tube and understand its basic sound signature. I seriously doubt that many of us have any experience with a PsV/Melz driver pairing, and thus, it is nigh impossible for us to relate to what you are hearing...
  
 And it occurs to me that perhaps *Lorspeaker* might be willing to send you a pair of AKB K812 to try with the Elise? lol


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Later down the road I shall pop the HD650s back in, just for interest's sake...


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> I seem to remember that you have a pair of Sylvania VT231s? I encourage you to roll these in as drivers the next time you get some time alone with the Elise, as many of us have this tube and understand its basic sound signature. I seriously doubt that many of us have any experience with a PsV/Melz driver pairing, and thus, it is nigh impossible for us to relate to what you are hearing...
> 
> And it occurs to me that perhaps *Lorspeaker* might be willing to send you a pair of AKB K812 to try with the Elise? lol


 
  
 Hi gibosi.
  
 Yes indeed, I have the Sylvanias...if I can find them!  So that will be on my 'to do' list after Christmas. It will also be interesting to see how they compare with the 7N7s (basically the Sylvania 'chrome top', but not your esteemed 'W' version unfortunately!), which I actually preferred in the LD...but we're talking much different territory here, lol!
  
 As for what I am hearing with that rather unorthodox (and probably almost unique!) pairing, if you could imagine in your ears' 'eye' the kind of response I described earlier in preliminary findings, then add on my later appendix, perhaps this might give some clue?...Otherwise, mon ami, I'm afraid there will probably be a bit of a wait (depending on what spare moments I can steal...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...).
  
 And any free offerings - from *Lorspeaker* or anyone else!! - will be eagerly accepted!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Actually, I would much prefer those who are already acquainted with such headphones to give their own personal impressions - and take the pressure off me!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Lorspeaker

U mean u wanna put your amp on tour.....wow!!


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> U mean u wanna put your amp on tour.....wow!!


 
  
*Lorspeaker*...how did I guess that might be _your_ take on things?!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...However, sorry to disappoint - this baby's going NOWHERE...


----------



## Acapella11

No, we are all going to visit H1 next year together with the Feliks representatives, lol


----------



## hypnos1

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL - My 'ultimate' set-up...possibly! :
  

  
 After my experiment with the Melz (metal base)/PsVane CV181TII driver combo, the next step of course was two PsVs...only this time (I know I'm ahead of myself, but I just couldn't resist - hey, it IS Christmas after all!)...and my goodness, the thought of what lies ahead when I have more time to do some proper listening has got me wishing Christmas gone even quicker now!
  
 Although the unorthodox driver pairing produced no obvious, unpleasant imbalance (apart from a predictable slight difference due to output levels), the two 'perfectly' matched PsVs (well, all triodes measuring '10.5' at least) did show up what more closely matched tubes can deliver...although difficult to quantify, there's just something about the entire sound that says more 'together'...viz the more subtle elements of balance -  integration; fluidity; clarity/'cleanness'; precise imaging/placement....mmmm, actually not so difficult to quantify after all!
  
 Anyway, even with only the briefest of listening, the overall sound fair took my breath away. Although bass doesn't hit so hard with these PsVs, there is detail galore -  which I much prefer anyway (I'm a quality over quantity sort of guy!) - and the evenness throughout the frequency range is quite uncanny, along with exquisite detail/resolution and exemplary treble finesse. Even though these tubes may not of themselves be the most dynamic on the block (depending on the rest of the set-up of course), with THIS amp they deliver more than enough energy/power/excitement to please all but the ultra head-banging masochist! With the added benefit of wonderful delicacy and subtlety...can one really ask for much more? _I_ certainly do not...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...My Christmas is complete already, lol...
  
 So this will have to suffice for a few days, I'm afraid....then I shall get back to tubes that won't cost an arm and a leg, but which I know already will nonetheless prove very exciting indeed....
  
 So until then, my best Christmas wishes to you all and a VERY Happy New Year...
  
 Cheers,
  
 CJ
  
  


acapella11 said:


> No, we are all going to visit H1 next year together with the Feliks representatives, lol





> Would that I could, mes amis...would that I could - how I miss my carefree 'bachelor' days!





>


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL - My 'ultimate' set-up...possibly! :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Your setup is more expensive than my CRACK and SEX combined
  
 MERRY CHRISTMAS!


----------



## Rossliew

MERRY CHRISTMAS all fellow tube rollers on this hallowed thread!!


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Your setup is more expensive than my CRACK and SEX combined
> 
> MERRY CHRISTMAS!


 
  
 Ah yes...but only if you can't find some nice GECs without going bankrupt, lol! (nigh on impossible though!)...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 AND TO YOU TOO!....


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Those Curvy Bottles looks amazing.


----------



## Acapella11

Merry Xmas tube lovers!


----------



## lukeap69

Merry Christmas to all and Elize!


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


>


 
  
 Will do...but hey, Oskari, you mean to say the T1s are not on your Christmas present list?....SHOOT SANTA!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Ah well,   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 anyway...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Will do...but hey, Oskari, you mean to say the T1s are not on your Christmas present list?....SHOOT SANTA!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Senns forever!


----------



## Acapella11

Hey H1,how is your Elise doing?


----------



## Rossliew

acapella11 said:


> Hey H1,how is your Elise doing?


 

 +1


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Hey H1,how is your Elise doing?


 
  
  


rossliew said:


> +1


 
  
 Hi guys (and everyone else!)...finally back on track - did in fact hope to have something for you sooner, but my TS (not Sylvania after all!) VT231s BOTH had awful hum when put in as drivers, whereas at least one seemed OK as a power in my Little Dot...GRRRRR!
  
 Having regained my 'calmer' state, I decided to give the RCA 6AS7Gs a try with the 6H5Cs - and I wish I hadn't, lol!  All I can say is, folks, I DO *NOT* recommend these at all (in this amp, at least). The Russian 6N13Ss are *FAR* better. This was actually what I had previously found in my LD, even when driven by the wonderful C3GS....What's wrong? - EVERYTHING! All the notes are there, but it's just one hellish free-for-all...gone were the balanced, coherent presentation; focus/imaging; fine detail across the entire frequency range and subtle tones; any proper '3D' soundstage whatsoever....in short *AWFUL! *(Sorry to any lovers of this tube, but I have never had such a disappointing encounter in the hundreds of tube rolling exercises I have otherwise always enjoyed). And it's not down to severe imbalance in the RCAs or lack of burn-in or any other obvious reason....
  
 Rant over (helped by regaining composure - not to mention bliss - by reinstalling the 6N13Ss driven by my PsVane CV181TIIs), I shall post this first just to let you know I haven't deserted y'all, and then give some further impressions on what will be my 'reference' combination...so back soon...


----------



## hypnos1

OK, so now that the unpleasant encounter is behind me, a little more on the Ps Vane/GEC combo.
  
 I know this may not be a very realistic sort of pairing for many (but then I'm sure some of you have an equally exciting collection of, say, TS BGRPs and 5998s etc. etc.), but I feel this will be good as my 'reference' point for other tubes...
  
 Anyway, with further burn-in of the Elise that reference magic I described previously has gotten even _more_ magical (I can now see why DIY enthusiasts talk about the need for even just the _resistors_ to have a good deal of burn-in, let alone everything else in the signal line!).
  
 Tonal range and detail is even greater, in both voice and instrument. Soundstage is a tad more 3-dimensional, with further extension at both ends of the frequency range. The balanced, even presentation overall has the linearity of a GOOD SS amp, but with an added 'organic' feel to it (this linearity I am sure is helped by all four triodes in the PsVs reading 10.5mA plate current?). These qualities, along with superb 'layering', are especially beneficial to large orchestral works - Moussorgsky's 'Pictures at an Exhibition' for example had me in total rapture. They also, however, work their magic on much simpler fare - Bach's Cello Suite, even though just a solo instrument, displays a stunning range of tone (in this case in the hands of Steven Isserliss), which is reproduced and, along with the instrument's dynamic range, handled with real precision...spine-tingling stuff!
 Perhaps what had me even more 'agog' were the unexpected multiple tones coming from the opening kettle drum of Copland's 'Fanfare for the Common Man', which I have never noticed before and which along with the haunting brass was inspiring, to say the least!
  
 Actually, talking of 'agog', that is how I am at this very moment, with the PsVanes driving the Russians...getting a bit too close to what the GECs deliver for my liking, lol! Given the price difference, there is actually no contest...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
 And what may have been lacking with the 6H8Cs is now present to a degree that is surprising me BIG time, especially given the criticisms some place on the PsVanes. This amp is obviously loving this particular combination EQUALLY big time...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Everything is exuding a totally effortless control that I find quite uncanny...
  
 So now I await my replacement metal-based Melz 6H8C with even more eagerness to see how they compare to the PsVs, along with a pair of tall-bottle, chrome 'domed' GE (Sylvania) 7N7s - which I need to get making some adapters for, unfortunately!...And then there'll be the Sylvania 6080s to try (when they arrive!).
  
 Anyway folks, hopefully this gives you a bit more idea of what the Elise can do...the quality and capabilities of this amp I find quite astounding - especially for the price! Will update as soon as poss.
  
 Cheers for now....time for dinner...


----------



## Lorspeaker

http://www.amazon.com/Copland-Fanfare-Common-Appalachian-Symphony/dp/B00004UDEQ
  
 everyone within sight of my post..buy this agog-ing cd, Eiji Oue...a must own !
 That kettledrum slamming textured basssss will separate the Man from the boys when it comes to auditioning of gears.


----------



## lukeap69

Thanks Lorspeaker. I purchased the album from HDTracks. It shook my brain out with the HD800!


----------



## hypnos1

That looks a worthy addition to the CD collection Lorspeaker...if just for that kettle drum through the T1s, lol!
  
 At the moment I seem to be thwarted at every turn - the replacement Melz 6H8C arrived today...and it's just the same as the faulty one it replaced!...Ah well, another message to the Ukraine..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 On a brighter note, I am in fact currently listening to the one good Melz tube partnered with the stock 6H5C and am really liking what I hear. The Melz is definitely giving a bit more in fine detail and extension but the two together are still working in harmony - VERY impressive. A slightly fuller sound than the PsVanes, with instruments getting a little more emphasis over vocals - but not at all worryingly so -  and not quite the same 'air', but this always seems to be an unavoidable trade-off with greater weight in presentation (but could just be a boon for the inherently wider HD800's soundstage!)....Can't wait to hear what TWO Melzes deliver (IF I get another replacement....I better had!).
 At the moment I would say these drivers are providing the extra 'warmth' that some find a bit lacking in the PsVanes - and for a lot less, if you can find a GOOD pair of used Melz or at least one to partner a stock 6H5C (which I am enjoying more and more as the tracks keep coming 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Back later with requests from Lukasz...


----------



## Acapella11

Thanks for the detailed infos H1. Have you been using the C3Gs yet with the Elise and would you say that the MKIVSE is largely outperformed? 
With respect to T1 vs HD800,I had the impression that the HD800 sounds closer to the instruments than the T1, somewhat more immersing with more refined treble and deeper bass. I liked both a lot.


----------



## hypnos1

Recommended optionals needed for Lukasz, folks.
  
 Guidance is requested concerning what optional extras may be feasible, so I am hoping to get some kind of concensus from everyone interested...
  
 From previous comments, I think the most useful would be : 1. Facility to enable optimum setting for the 5998 tube. 2. Separate setting for low and high impedance headphones.
  
 I can't honestly think of anything else that is going to appeal to enough potential customers to be financially viable/worthwhile....but YOU may well know differently!  If so, please post your suggestions for Lukasz to consider (but please don't be _too_ unrealistic, lol!).
  
 He has intimated that they could offer more premium tubes, but as the 6N13Ss are so good the only feasible option (IMHO) would be concerning the drivers. But then, which ones could they be? I myself can only think of the 'reissue' Tung Sol 6SN7 (made in Russia) as being a likely/realistic candidate when looking for a 'new' tube that is going to be fairly reliable and obtainable (unless he can find a reliable source of NOS Melz!)...but again, perhaps YOU know different!
  
 So please scratch the necessary and give your own views...ALL (within reason! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) WELCOME...


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Thanks for the detailed infos H1. Have you been using the C3Gs yet with the Elise and would you say that the MKIVSE is largely outperformed?
> With respect to T1 vs HD800,I had the impression that the HD800 sounds closer to the instruments than the T1, somewhat more immersing with more refined treble and deeper bass. I liked both a lot.


 
  
 Hi A11.
  
 Re the C3Gs I had VERY sad news from Lukasz, via mordy  -  apparently internal alterations would be needed for them to work properly, which would restrict the amp to just this tube...and use of an adapter would be very unsatisfactory. So this doesn't appear to be a viable option unfortunately...I was gutted, to say the least! I am, however, going to explore further as to if there's ANY way at all of making this happen without that fatal restriction...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Much as I love my MKIV SE, even with the C3GS/GEC CV2523 combination she is outperformed by a good margin, and that's with much more modest/cheaper tubes in the Elise. Up the game in 'E' and the LD is left way behind I'm afraid...
  
 Interesting comment re the HD800s - I was always under the impression that critics of them weren't fond of the almost TOO wide a stage; excessively 'cool' and 'analytical' presentation, and hence reduced intimacy....????
  
  
 ps. (Hopefully Cambridge could be on the cards!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...


----------



## Acapella11

Thanks, shame on the C3G side. I thought he was including this tube in the lineup already from when you starting communicating. If the pentode is strapped down to triode and adapted to the locktal socket, it should be OK, shouldn't it...? But then I have never build a tube amp, so they would know better.
  
 The lower impedance switch is an excellent idea, +1 there. Originally, there was a C3G adapter in the options and a 6.3 / 12.6 V switch. I would very much appreciate a balanced hp output at a later stage.
  
 The HD800 is analytical and cold if you wish to call it that, even though I would rather say it is transparent and plainly neutral. Immersive was meant as in more forward than the T1. When signatures in the chain are matched, the HD800 is a pleasure to listen to without end.
  
 Yeah, let's meet up in Cambridge 2015 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## gibosi

acapella11 said:


> Thanks, shame on the C3G side. I thought he was including this tube in the lineup already from when you starting communicating. If the pentode is strapped down to triode and adapted to the locktal socket, it should be OK, shouldn't it...? But then I have never build a tube amp, so they would know better.


 
  
 The 6SN7 is a double triode whereas the Cg3 is a single pentode, and if you strap it as a triode, it is a single triode. So the trick is, how to fit a single triode into a circuit designed for a double triode? Evidently it can be done per an earlier post by 2359glenn, but it would require a custom adapter. Further, a strapped Cg3 has a gain of about 40 whereas a 6SN7 has a gain of about 20. So it may well be necessary to add some extra circuitry to prevent the output of the Cg3 from overdriving the grid of the 6AS7.
  
 Of course, my understanding of this matter is only intuitive, as I too have no experience in designing and building tube amps, but nonetheless, their reluctance makes some sense to me....


----------



## mordy

Hi hypnos 1,
  
 In an email to Lukasz I mentioned that one of the thrills re tube amps is tube rolling. He said that they are working on a manual which will include a list of suitable tubes as well. I would think that rolling different power tubes such as the 6080 would be an option. Lukasz stated that adapters for such tubes which have a wider base than the OEM tubes would be provided free of charge.
  
 As for driver tubes I would like to try 5687 tubes. A set of adapters allowing for the use of these tubes would be nice. Lukasz told me that the amp could be be modified for C3g tubes for an additional $60, but then it would not work with other tubes.
  
 Without a hands on experience with the Elise it is difficult to come up with practical suggestion for optional extras.


----------



## Acapella11

> Originally Posted by *mordy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> As for driver tubes I would like to try 5687 tubes. A set of adapters allowing for the use of these tubes would be nice.


 
  
 From ebay, they are starting at about $28 incl. international shipping. Of course, an ordering option with Feliks would be nice.


----------



## Johnnysound

hypnos1 said:


> Recommended optionals needed for Lukasz, folks.
> 
> Guidance is requested concerning what optional extras may be feasible, so I am hoping to get some kind of concensus from everyone interested...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again H1, and this thread is getting really interesting.  I think we need to know a little bit more  about the circuit design of the Elise, and what is inside it for a reasonably informed opinion about tube rolling, and even this  will be only tentative without any direct  experience with the unit.   I feel the Elise  is exceptional for one reason: it was designed  as a result of the experiences and the mods performed by the people in the LDTRG Thread,  and this is the first time that I see a manufacturer  follow the users opinions to the extent of building a new model. In short, the Elise has been truly designed *by ear* , but with solid technical fundaments behind it.  Again, congrats to you and all the people in the thread, you do not see this every day...
  
  I followed the upgrade path with my LDIII and never  reached, say, a "level IV" with external PS, to feed 6AS7G/6080 power tubes, so as I commented in another post, the Elise is kind of a "level V" at first glance because of its beefy PS, this will give ample current reserve for the powers to perform its best.  They will never "starve" for current as gibosi said so aptly, in a circuit
 specifically designed for 6AS7Gs,   which, by the way,  are one of the most linear and lowest distortion tubes ever made, far above the famous 300b, and by consensus the best sounding in   the LDIII amps, even with small DIY power supplies.  No doubt Feliks Audio took very good note of this, and is nice to know that their transformers are custom made in Poland, not only with power to spare, but designed for this application.  This is good, but the mistery remains about the overall  design,  which is different from the LD amps. Is this a SEPP OTL ? Capacitor coupled ?   Anyway, this thing surely outputs a lot of current to drive any high impedance HP around.  I  bet this one will be a killer preamp.  H1. do you have some amp/speakers around ??


----------



## Lorspeaker

plugged in this 6080tube into the dv336se and the soundstage kinda "closed down" though the notes are "taut" with a solidstate feel.
 Put in the russian WingC....and all is well...big huge airy sound...(whew..for a moment i tot " whaaaaathappppened...?!!? "  )


----------



## Lorspeaker

lukeap69 said:


> Thanks Lorspeaker. I purchased the album from HDTracks. It shook my brain out with the HD800!


 
  
 Eiji Oue 's series of cds with the Minnesota Orchestra is/are amazing...
 i am being bashhhhhed squisshed  by this cd right this moment..
 tender soaring grand dynamic powerful.. gem.
  

 http://www.amazon.com/Strauss-Heldenleben-Interludes-Frau-Schatten/dp/B0000060F3


----------



## sgbwill2

lorspeaker said:


> plugged in this 6080tube into the dv336se and the soundstage kinda "closed down" though the notes are "taut" with a solidstate feel.
> Put in the russian WingC....and all is well...big huge airy sound...(whew..for a moment i tot " whaaaaathappppened...?!!? "  )


 
 I've had major problems with the Thomsons; had 2 sets fail on me within a week (4 tubes). While they sounded good to me they didn't last long at all and I would advise against them because of this. May have just been a bad batch they have but I have yet to have any other 6080/6as7 fail on me other than these so I wouldn't say they are worth the price or hassle. =/


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> acapella11 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks, shame on the C3G side. I thought he was including this tube in the lineup already from when you starting communicating. If the pentode is strapped down to triode and adapted to the locktal socket, it should be OK, shouldn't it...? But then I have never build a tube amp, so they would know better.
> ...


 

 Also the C3g needs a different bias so it has to have a different cathode resistor to work properly.
 I know people have used the C3g  but not at there best. A amp builder has to have it right so it is more
 then a simple adapter. The amp would need a separate socket with the correct circuitry and would
 be costly for a company to do so. Most people want a common 6SN7 and have no idea how good
 a C3g sounds + there is little or no tube rolling with the C3g all are made by Siemens.


----------



## hypnos1

lukeap69 said:


> Thanks Lorspeaker. I purchased the album from HDTracks. It shook my brain out with the HD800!


 
  
 And thanks to you for reminding me about HDTracks, lukeap69....in hi-res must be truly ear AND mind blowing, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....can't wait...especially when I get my second Melz (which I've had to get NOS - 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) as there's no replacement for my 2nd faulty one, just partial refund...).
  


mordy said:


> Hi hypnos 1,
> 
> In an email to Lukasz I mentioned that one of the thrills re tube amps is tube rolling. He said that they are working on a manual which will include a list of suitable tubes as well. I would think that rolling different power tubes such as the 6080 would be an option. Lukasz stated that adapters for such tubes which have a wider base than the OEM tubes would be provided free of charge.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi m.
  
 Good work on grilling Lukasz...but so SAD re the C3g. However, these 6H8Cs (especially the Melz!) are doing a wonderful job, so the disappointment has been assuaged a good deal...thank goodness! And I have really high hopes for the tall-bottle 'chrome dome' Sylvania (labelled GE) 7N7s when they arrive - not to mention the short-bottle ones I already have...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Will ask Lukasz about the 5687...
  
 As you - and Johnnysound -  say, it's difficult to really know about other possible requirements without 'hands-on' experience...which is why I need HELP from those who have been in this game longer than I....time to hit the CCs folks!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


johnnysound said:


> Hi again H1, and this thread is getting really interesting.  I think we need to know a little bit more  about the circuit design of the Elise, and what is inside it for a reasonably informed opinion about tube rolling, and even this  will be only tentative without any direct  experience with the unit.   I feel the Elise  is exceptional for one reason: it was designed  as a result of the experiences and the mods performed by the people in the LDTRG Thread,  and this is the first time that I see a manufacturer  follow the users opinions to the extent of building a new model. In short, the Elise has been truly designed *by ear* , but with solid technical fundaments behind it.  Again, congrats to you and all the people in the thread, you do not see this every day...
> 
> I followed the upgrade path with my LDIII and never  reached, say, a "level IV" with external PS, to feed 6AS7G/6080 power tubes, so as I commented in another post, the Elise is kind of a "level V" at first glance because of its beefy PS, this will give ample current reserve for the powers to perform its best.  They will never "starve" for current as gibosi said so aptly, in a circuit
> specifically designed for 6AS7Gs,   which, by the way,  are one of the most linear and lowest distortion tubes ever made, far above the famous 300b, and by consensus the best sounding in   the LDIII amps, even with small DIY power supplies.  No doubt Feliks Audio took very good note of this, and is nice to know that their transformers are custom made in Poland, not only with power to spare, but designed for this application.  This is good, but the mistery remains about the overall  design,  which is different from the LD amps. Is this a SEPP OTL ? Capacitor coupled ?   Anyway, this thing surely outputs a lot of current to drive any high impedance HP around.  I  bet this one will be a killer preamp.  H1. do you have some amp/speakers around ??


 
  
 Thanks J for a really nice, encouraging post - the Feliks-Audio guys will also greatly appreciate your words...they sure did put themselves out on our behalf - and as you say, I doubt there are many man'rers out there who would even contemplate such a venture!
  
 I'm sure Lukasz will give us a bit more of an idea re design, barring the 'trade secrets' that is!
  
 Now as to your last part, re use as preamp, you may well have a great deal to answer for mon ami (especially from my better half, if I go ahead!) - ie. what I thought was perfectly good sound coming from my Dynaudio speakers fed direct from my Vincent SS amp I now see is WAY below what the potential is with the Elise as preamp to the Vincent. They have never sounded like this...even after I took them to far greater heights by replacing the internal wiring with pure silver; removing the connectors and soldering direct to the crossover (again with pure silver cable), and replacing the sponge and wadding with acoustic wool! (And anyone who says these mods make little difference have obviously never TRIED them, lol!! - the improvement was unbelievable...).
  
 But even though they now sound even better, it is quite obvious that the Elise/Vincent combo is just shouting for something more exotic (especially to do full justice to the amazing bass) - and I can feel a pain in my wallet already...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. So if bankruptcy looms, can I please blame YOU?!!.....(I suppose really, it should be Lukasz...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Despite this rather daunting future project, this is one REALLY nice added bonus from this amp...
  
 Cheers all - and a HAPPY NEW YEAR!


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> Also the C3g needs a different bias so it has to have a different cathode resistor to work properly.
> I know people have used the C3g  but not at there best. A amp builder has to have it right so it is more
> then a simple adapter. The amp would need a separate socket with the correct circuitry and would
> be costly for a company to do so. Most people want a common 6SN7 and have no idea how good
> a C3g sounds + there is little or no tube rolling with the C3g all are made by Siemens.


 
  
 Hi 2359glenn.
  
 Your expert input is greatly appreciated - thanks.
  
 Although we may not have heard them at their true best, the results from adapting them to use in our Little Dots were quite amazing - in fact better than (almost) any other top-tier tube we tested, and they were MANY!  I am wondering how on Earth such a modest amp managed this feat, as opposed to an obviously much better made unit?
  
 Any insights would be MOST GRATEFULLY received...


----------



## Lorspeaker

HAPPY NEW YEAR EliseGuys!!


----------



## lukeap69

Happy new year to everyone!


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Although we may not have heard them at their true best, the results from adapting them to use in our Little Dots were quite amazing - in fact better than (almost) any other top-tier tube we tested, and they were MANY!  I am wondering how on Earth such a modest amp managed this feat, as opposed to an obviously much better made unit?
> 
> Any insights would be MOST GRATEFULLY received...


 
  
 Just a hunch....  Our Little Dots were designed to run pentodes, strapped as triodes, and I suspect that many of these pentodes, strapped as triodes, are more similar to the C3g than they are to a 6SN7. I have not been able to find any data for the 6AK5, strapped as a triode. However, the 6AU6, strapped as a triode, has a gain of 36, the 6AH6, strapped as a triode, has a gain of 40, and the C3g, strapped as a triode, also has a gain of 40. In comparison, the 6SN7 has a gain of 20. So it just might be a happy coincidence that the LD is actually better suited to run C3g than it is 6SN7. But again, this is just a WAG on my part.


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> hypnos1 said:
> 
> 
> > Although we may not have heard them at their true best, the results from adapting them to use in our Little Dots were quite amazing - in fact better than (almost) any other top-tier tube we tested, and they were MANY!  I am wondering how on Earth such a modest amp managed this feat, as opposed to an obviously much better made unit?
> ...


 

 A 6AU6 cathode resistor is much closer to being right for a C3g then a 6SN7 cathode resistor.
 So it might have been running close to the right bias and operating points in your Little Dot.
 But to try to run it in a 6SN7 circuit NOT.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Just a hunch....  Our Little Dots were designed to run pentodes, strapped as triodes, and I suspect that many of these pentodes, strapped as triodes, are more similar to the C3g than they are to a 6SN7. I have not been able to find any data for the 6AK5, strapped as a triode. However, the 6AU6, strapped as a triode, has a gain of 36, the 6AH6, strapped as a triode, has a gain of 40, and the C3g, strapped as a triode, also has a gain of 40. In comparison, the 6SN7 has a gain of 20. So it just might be a happy coincidence that the LD is actually better suited to run C3g than it is 6SN7. But again, this is just a WAG on my part.


 
  
  


2359glenn said:


> A 6AU6 cathode resistor is much closer to being right for a C3g then a 6SN7 cathode resistor.
> So it might have been running close to the right bias and operating points in your Little Dot.
> But to try to run it in a 6SN7 circuit NOT.


 
  
 Thanks guys...this is a real shame, but I suppose there have to be certain trade-offs at ANY price point!
  
 Ah well, such is life...I still wouldn't swap the Elise for my LD (even _with_ C3GSs!).


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > Just a hunch....  Our Little Dots were designed to run pentodes, strapped as triodes, and I suspect that many of these pentodes, strapped as triodes, are more similar to the C3g than they are to a 6SN7. I have not been able to find any data for the 6AK5, strapped as a triode. However, the 6AU6, strapped as a triode, has a gain of 36, the 6AH6, strapped as a triode, has a gain of 40, and the C3g, strapped as a triode, also has a gain of 40. In comparison, the 6SN7 has a gain of 20. So it just might be a happy coincidence that the LD is actually better suited to run C3g than it is 6SN7. But again, this is just a WAG on my part.
> ...


 

 I am sure they can make it with two C3g instead of two 6SN7s if there was enough call for it.


----------



## Skylab

FWIW, the 6CG7 can be used in place of a 6SN7 with the right pin adapter, if one really wanted access to something other than a 6SN7. But there are so many 6SN7 variants it's hard to imagine not being satisfied with one...


----------



## john57

Not only that there is a 7N7 tube with a loctal adapter that is a direct replacement for a 6SN7.


----------



## sgbwill2

john57 said:


> Not only that there is a 7N7 tube with a loctal adapter that is a direct replacement for a 6SN7.


 
 Dont forget the 6f8g's with adapters. The legendary tung sol 6f8g sounds incredible!


----------



## hypnos1

skylab said:


> FWIW, the 6CG7 can be used in place of a 6SN7 with the right pin adapter, if one really wanted access to something other than a 6SN7. But there are so many 6SN7 variants it's hard to imagine not being satisfied with one...


 
  
 Yes indeed Skylab, this is a nice bonus with this amp - just one family to roll...especially after the multiple ones (complete with different adapters/external power supplies & regulators etc.!) we rolled in our Little Dots - fun though it was...


john57 said:


> Not only that there is a 7N7 tube with a loctal adapter that is a direct replacement for a 6SN7.


 
  
 Hi john57.
  
 Hopefully I can get making my adapters soon (don't like paying for them and besides, I like to use pure silver wire!) - I'm itching to see how the 7N7s compare to the Melz/stock 6H8C pairing...I was very impressed with them in the past (preferred them to VT231s in fact). And as they were all apparently made by Sylvania, quality is pretty well assured, lol.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> I am sure they can make it with two C3g instead of two 6SN7s if there was enough call for it.


 
  
 It appears they would do so for just another $60 (not including tubes I presume!!), according to mordy...but then the amp is restricted to this tube...no fun rolling!...(But I'm sure it would be even more of a 'killer amp'!).


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Yes indeed Skylab, this is a nice bonus with this amp - just one family to roll...especially after the multiple ones (complete with different adapters/external power supplies & regulators etc.!) we rolled in our Little Dots - fun though it was...


 
  
 Actually, there is no reason why you can't run 5687, 6DJ8, 6463, ECC40, E80CC or almost any other medium mu double triode in the Elise, providing you use the appropriate pin adapters. On the other hand, as Skylab notes, there are so many variants of the 6SN7, including the 6CG7, 7N7 and 6F8G, surely everyone can find at least one that will take their breath away.


----------



## Acapella11

Happy New Year Elise thread!


----------



## mordy

Hi 2359glenn,
  
 While looking into C3g tubes I found some made by Lorenz. I emailed the German seller and asked if they were made by Siemens. He answered that they were made in Berlin by Lorenz.
  
 There are also available C3g tubes from Valvo and Telefunken, but I don't know who made them.
  
 According to JACMusic which seems to be a major seller of C3g tubes, these tubes were expensive when they were produced and a 1960's price was around 200DM.  This translates into $48 in 1960 (In today's economy this would be equivalent of $380!).
  
 It seems plausible that these tubes were very specialized and perhaps only manufactured by one manufacturer. On the other hand there were other manufacturers such as the British Brimar (STC) that made a C3o equivalent {a C3m 20V tube made for 6.3V was called C3o - the pinout is different than the C3g}. This tube was called STC ITT 5A/152M.


----------



## 2359glenn

AS far as I know all C3g tubes were made by Siemens including Valvo and Telefunken.
 Also the C3m 20 volt tube was made by Siemens not sure about the others.
 They were specialized tubes made for the telephone company.
 These expensive tubes were stock piled for replacements but technology advanced fast
 replacing all the equipment that used these tubes. No need for all these stock piled
 tubes now sold as surplus at low cost.


----------



## Synthax

Dear hypnos1
  
 Could you please post some pictures of interior of Elise?
  
 Thank you in advance and all the best in 2015 !!


----------



## sgbwill2

synthax said:


> Dear hypnos1
> 
> Could you please post some pictures of interior of Elise?
> 
> Thank you in advance and all the best in 2015 !!


 
 I would also be interested in seeing this as I am curious


----------



## Acapella11

synthax said:


> Dear hypnos1
> 
> Could you please post some pictures of interior of Elise?
> 
> Thank you in advance and all the best in 2015 !!


 
  
 A similar request was made before and I think it would need to be Feliks Audio to realease these pictures.
  
 Re C3g, just an amateur's question: Can multiple tube bias circuits be run in an alternative fashion to the same socket and selected by a switch? I understand that a dedicated socket would be the best option but if a socket can be fed by different biases, an adapter could be sufficient making it compatible with the current case.


----------



## 2359glenn

acapella11 said:


> synthax said:
> 
> 
> > Dear hypnos1
> ...


 

 Not if the tube needs a lower cathode resistor. A adapter can be made with a resistor to add resistance.
 The C3g needs a lower cathode resistor then a 6SN7.


----------



## hypnos1

synthax said:


> Dear hypnos1
> 
> Could you please post some pictures of interior of Elise?
> 
> Thank you in advance and all the best in 2015 !!


 
  
 Hi Synthax...and all the best for the New Year to you too!
  
 Am sorry about this subject, but I did ask Lukasz about same a good while ago and in all fairness he would like to keep certain design aspects 'in house', but there might be some details he would be happy to impart if you email him personally :  info@feliksaudio.pl
  


sgbwill2 said:


> I would also be interested in seeing this as I am curious


 
  
 Hi sgbwill2....hopefully my above reply is of help to you...
  


acapella11 said:


> A similar request was made before and I think it would need to be Feliks Audio to realease these pictures.
> 
> Re C3g, just an amateur's question: Can multiple tube bias circuits be run in an alternative fashion to the same socket and selected by a switch? I understand that a dedicated socket would be the best option but if a socket can be fed by different biases, an adapter could be sufficient making it compatible with the current case.


 
  
 HNY! to you A11...funny you should ask that question, but in my desperation to find _some_ way of making it happen I have in fact asked Lukasz if it's at all feasible to add resistors etc. to my adapter wiring in a last ditch attempt, lol!...despite fear of showing my ignorance!!
  
 But I don't hold out much hope, more's the pity...


----------



## Acapella11

2359glenn said:


> Not if the tube needs a lower cathode resistor. A adapter can be made with a resistor to add resistance.
> The C3g needs a lower cathode resistor then a 6SN7.


 
  
 Thank you for the info Glenn.
  
  


hypnos1 said:


> HNY! to you A11...funny you should ask that question, but in my desperation to find _some_ way of making it happen I have in fact asked Lukasz if it's at all feasible to add resistors etc. to my adapter wiring in a last ditch attempt, lol!...despite fear of showing my ignorance!!
> 
> But I don't hold out much hope, more's the pity...


 
  
 Thanks, to you too. As good as it might be, it seems, it needs its own topology in an amp with dedicated circuit + sockets. Maybe a future Feliks product or a custom amp would be a consideration. However, I guess, as Gibosi pointed out, a 6SN7 alternative might be as much rewarding.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> Not if the tube needs a lower cathode resistor. A adapter can be made with a resistor to add resistance.
> The C3g needs a lower cathode resistor then a 6SN7.


 
  
 You beat me to it 2359glenn...you just confirmed my worst fears! Thanks anyway...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> Not if the tube needs a lower cathode resistor. A adapter can be made with a resistor to add resistance.
> The C3g needs a lower cathode resistor then a 6SN7.


 
  
 Me again Glenn...so a _higher_ gain tube needs a _lower_ cathode resistor in this circuit?...I really am gonna have to take a crash course in amp electronics, lol!...


----------



## mordy

This is what Lukasz wrote me in regard to using C3g tubes:
  
  
_"On the C3g tubes - we can make the adapter, but the amp was not designed to work with them and I'm afraid the sound result would not be to your satisfaction._
_However if you are interested we can customize the electrical circuit for your amp and replace the standard tubes sockets with octals and make it compatible with C3g's (though not with the other drivers). The customization would cost around $60 (excluding cost of tubes)."_
  
  
 To me the question is if the C3g tube used as a driver would be the end game in the Feliks amp. Since this modification would exclude tube rolling for the drivers it would only be an option if the C3g would sound superior to the 6SN7 family of tubes. Only one way to find out......


----------



## gibosi

Yes indeed, there is only one way to find out! So are you going to order two amps? The standard Elise with 6SN7 drivers plus a custom Elise with C3g drivers to see which sounds best? 
  
 And just an observation....  The $60 premium for the C3g may well be a bargain compared to how much it might cost to purchase and roll a dozen or more pairs of 6SN7 in the quest to find the "best" tube....


----------



## Nic Rhodes

an interesting comparison will be with the LD Mk 9 OCL, it uses a single 6SL7GT vs dual 6SN7GTs.


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > Not if the tube needs a lower cathode resistor. A adapter can be made with a resistor to add resistance.
> ...


 

 Not necessarily the G3g needs less of a negative grid voltage. This is accomplished by tying  the grid to ground through a resistor having 0 volts on it.
 And having a cathode resistor to ground when the tube draws current through the cathode resistor there is a voltage drop. This makes the cathode
 positive compared to the grid at 0 so the grid is negative respect to the cathode. This is the bias voltage.


----------



## 2359glenn

mordy said:


> This is what Lukasz wrote me in regard to using C3g tubes:
> 
> 
> _"On the C3g tubes - we can make the adapter, but the amp was not designed to work with them and I'm afraid the sound result would not be to your satisfaction._
> ...


 

 I am building gibosi a OTL that has 2 loctal sockets for C3G and a octal for 6SN7 / 12SN7 / 25SN7 or 1633 a tube rolling dream.


----------



## Acapella11

gibosi said:


> Yes indeed, there is only one way to find out! So are you going to order two amps? The standard Elise with 6SN7 drivers plus a custom Elise with C3g drivers to see which sounds best?
> 
> And just an observation....  The $60 premium for the C3g may well be a bargain compared to how much it might cost to purchase and roll a dozen or more pairs of 6SN7 in the quest to find the "best" tube....


 
  
 True.
  
 Also, I am guessing one advantage of the Elise is it's price/value ratio.


----------



## mordy

Hi Nic,
  
 There is almost no information on the Little Dot MK9 on the internet. One user said that the transformer emitted a hum (not the amp through the headphones) and David Zhe Zhe stated that all toroidal transformers emit a mechanical hum. Another user did not experience any hum.
  
 That's all I could find....


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> oskari said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


 
  
 Now, get off the eggnog and get on to it!


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Now, get off the eggnog and get on to it!


 
  
 OK, OK Oskari...I hear you - I know I'm naughty...but NICE?!
  
 Tomorrow, I promise...
  
 Before I go to bed, I couldn't resist seeing what happens when this rather good combination of Melz and stock 6H8C is driving my GECs...all I can say is I am now out of mourning for my beloved C3Gs - the sound is just amazing.
 So now I need to see how some Chathams fare with the combo...AFTER the 650s, that is lol!!
  
 Cheers and goodnight!


----------



## Nic Rhodes

mordy said:


> Hi Nic,
> 
> There is almost no information on the Little Dot MK9 on the internet. One user said that the transformer emitted a hum (not the amp through the headphones) and David Zhe Zhe stated that all toroidal transformers emit a mechanical hum. Another user did not experience any hum.
> 
> That's all I could find....


 

  That is all I could find also so I have bought one to try! I am keen to try a few more amps using 6SL7GT, 6SN7GT, 6AS7G and 6V6GTs. Perhaps another one using EF91, EF92, EF95s as well.


----------



## mordy

Cool! Please let us know your impressions when it arrives.....


----------



## MIKELAP

Thats going to be interesting MK9 in da house.  Here's a few pictures just to refresh our memory's  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




                                                Can also be used as preamp with vintage amps but you cant with LD MK3 type amps


----------



## Rossliew

Can it use the 6AS7/5998 tubes as power?


----------



## Acapella11

nic rhodes said:


> That is all I could find also so I have bought one to try! I am keen to try a few more amps using 6SL7GT, 6SN7GT, 6AS7G and 6V6GTs. Perhaps another one using EF91, EF92, EF95s as well.


 
  
 Great, looking forward to your impressions!


----------



## Nic Rhodes

6AS7G and 6080 certainly ok. I am not sure about 7236 and 5998 yet as I can't find a manual on line for this so will have to measure. I am confident 6N5C and 6N13C ruskies are good to go also. Really looking forward to playing with 6SL7GT however on this. Afterall it was rolling in our little dots that led to Elise being born.


----------



## Rossliew

Thanks for the Nic...i suppose we need some courageous tube rollers to try out all the different tubes (7236 / 5998) to see if it would be plug and play : )


----------



## Lorspeaker

mikelap said:


> Thats going to be interesting MK9 in da house.  Here's a few pictures just to refresh our memory's
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 wow....those tubes really GLOW 
 Let us know if it can handle the lows on Eiji


----------



## MIKELAP

nic rhodes said:


> 6AS7G and 6080 certainly ok. I am not sure about 7236 and 5998 yet as I can't find a manual on line for this so will have to measure. I am confident 6N5C and 6N13C ruskies are good to go also. Really looking forward to playing with 6SL7GT however on this. Afterall it was rolling in our little dots that led to Elise being born.


 
 I am using with a WA2 all of the above + 2399 with the exception of the 7236 that i dont have. if you can use one would  it be possible to use them all with MK9 ?


----------



## Rossliew

I just shot David Zhe Zhe an email to ask him. Let's see what his reply is.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Probable and I have all the named tubes here in numbers but don't want to confirm until I have tried it. I also have an WA2 and 22 here to compare. It all depends on how the amp works. Putting a premium tube in an amp that then runs it at the wrong point on the curve is likely to lead to dissappointment.


----------



## sgbwill2

nic rhodes said:


> 6AS7G and 6080 certainly ok. I am not sure about 7236 and 5998 yet as I can't find a manual on line for this so will have to measure. I am confident 6N5C and 6N13C ruskies are good to go also. Really looking forward to playing with 6SL7GT however on this. Afterall it was rolling in our little dots that led to Elise being born.


 
 7236, 5998, 421A and 6N13C/S are all direct replacements and can be use without adapters.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Thanks I am familiar with the tubes (built many of my own amps with them especially 6AS7Gs), what I am unsure about is how the LD9 operates them atm as I haven't seen the internals or a manual yet.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Now, get off the eggnog and get on to it!


 
  
 Hey O...how did you know I _love_ Advocaat?...Ah well, never mind!
  
 Anyway, I'm doubly sorry for the delay because (fortunately) it was only a matter of minutes - _seconds_ actually! -  before the difference was immediately obvious.
  
 Much as I was previously quite impressed with the HD650s, I was so disappointed with them after the Beyer T1s I just couldn't continue the testing I'm afraid (which mirrored my experience with the LD MKIV SE). All I can say to you Oskari - and anyone else interested - is give them a decent burial and treat yourself to some T1s...or, as you are a Senns fan, the HD800s. Especially if you are going to treat yourself also to the Elise!... this amp just cries out for some really serious cans. Even with the stock tubes - apart from one driver being the metal-base Melz - the 650s fell way behind in every department : bass/treble extension and detail; mids handling; soundstage; focus/imaging/placement; note attack thru decay; PRaT; overall 'excitement', and (dare I say it!) _magic_...(a certain amount may be down to the 'warmer' nature of the 650s as opposed to the 'brighter' sig of the T1s, but only a very small amount I would suspect, lol!).
  
 Enough said, I think...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
  


nic rhodes said:


> That is all I could find also so I have bought one to try! I am keen to try a few more amps using 6SL7GT, 6SN7GT, 6AS7G and 6V6GTs. Perhaps another one using EF91, EF92, EF95s as well.


 
  
 Hi Nic....I sincerely hope you're gonna add the Elise to your list. If not, shame on you!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


sgbwill2 said:


> 7236, 5998, 421A and 6N13C/S are all direct replacements and can be use without adapters.


 
  
 Hi sgbwill2.
  
 The 5998s have a different spec to the 'standard' 6as7G/6080, and I believe they are therefore not an EXACT direct replacement?..


----------



## sgbwill2

> Hi sgbwill2.
> 
> The 5998s have a different spec to the 'standard' 6as7G/6080, and I believe they are therefore not an EXACT direct replacement?..


 
 No they are not 'exact' they are slightly different internally and the 6as7 draw up is 2.5A and the 5998/421A is 2.4A but these can be used in most 6as7/6080 amps as replacements as they are so similar.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Nic....I sincerely hope you're gonna add the Elise to your list. If not, shame on you!!...


 
 No change on the Elise plans, this is in addition.


----------



## mordy

Hi Nic,
  
 The reason you can't find a manual for the LD MK9 is because there isn't one in English - only in Chinese. However, you can ask David Zhe Zhe directly at Little Dot.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Thanks


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> All I can say to you Oskari - and anyone else interested - is give them a decent burial


 
  
 Thanks. No, I won't!


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> Thanks. No, I won't!


 
  
 What's this, O...."old slippers" lol?!...


----------



## JamieMcC

hypnos1 said:


> Much as I was previously quite impressed with the HD650s, I was so disappointed with them after the Beyer T1s I just couldn't continue the testing I'm afraid (which mirrored my experience with the LD MKIV SE). All I can say to you Oskari - and anyone else interested - is give them a decent burial and treat yourself to some T1s


 
  
 This pretty much echoes my own experience with the Bottlehead Crack when in stock form I thought both HD650 and T1 sounded some what similar out of it and it wasn't  until I started down the upgrade path with the Crack that the T1's really started to shine. With the HD650's while they did scale to some extent they quickly reached a point where I felt they had plateaued the T1's on the other hand just continued to improve, it was almost like they had been given the kiss of life the mids filled out, bass tightened up and had good punch and the top end became much more refined and smooth, brass cymbals, high hats, tambourines all suddenly had a crisp tings to them when before it was all scching and no ting.
 I recently had both a stock Crack and a modified version in the house and switching between the two especially going back to the stock one from the hot-rodded version was a bit of a eye opener. Its a crazy hobby where you can be pretty much satisfied with how something sounds nice black background, resolution, PRaT etc then all of a sudden you find yourself at a totally different level on the food chain!


----------



## hypnos1

jamiemcc said:


> This pretty much echoes my own experience with the Bottlehead Crack when in stock form I thought both HD650 and T1 sounded some what similar out of it and it wasn't  until I started down the upgrade path with the Crack that the T1's really started to shine. With the HD650's while they did scale to some extent they quickly reached a point where I felt they had plateaued the T1's on the other hand just continued to improve, it was almost like they had been given the kiss of life the mids filled out, bass tightened up and had good punch and the top end became much more refined and smooth, brass cymbals, high hats, tambourines all suddenly had a crisp tings to them when before it was all scching and no ting.
> I recently had both a stock Crack and a modified version in the house and switching between the two especially going back to the stock one from the hot-rodded version was a bit of a eye opener. Its a crazy hobby where you can be pretty much satisfied with how something sounds nice black background, resolution, PRaT etc then all of a sudden you find yourself at a totally different level on the food chain!


 
  
 Hi JMcC.
  
 I must admit I was VERY apprehensive at first about spending that kind of money on headphones, but boy I don't regret it one tiny bit...we're not talking _minor_ differences here, they're _major_!
  
 And I am really glad I have been able to experience your 'bit of an eye-opener' - actually, more of a 'mind-blower!' - without having to do all your brave modding work , lol!!


----------



## Nic Rhodes

The T1s are great phones but we must not forget the guts of the 600 / 650 date back to at least 1995 now...They are old girls like the 880 are also.


----------



## Acapella11

jamiemcc said:


> With the HD650's while they did scale to some extent they quickly reached a point where I felt they had plateaued the T1's on the other hand just continued to improve, it was almost like they had been given the kiss of life the mids filled out, bass tightened up and had good punch and the top end became much more refined and smooth, brass cymbals, high hats, tambourines all suddenly had a crisp tings to them when before it was all scching and no ting.


 
  
 When starting with head-fi, many ask themselves where to put the money: headphones, amp or DAC? IMO, the headphones are the clear winner, they will go a longer way because exactly of this reason, you will actually hear the improvements of upgrades and appreciate them properly.
  


nic rhodes said:


> The T1s are great phones but we must not forget the guts of the 600 / 650 date back to at least 1995 now...They are old girls like the 880 are also.


 
  
 The HD650s are scalable and fine phones but of course they don't stretch that far anymore.


----------



## hypnos1

It's no use... I've just got to post another bedtime snippet.
  
 Have put in the Chatham 6AS7Gs - still with the Melz/stock pair - and once again I'm truly amazed. Lucky will be those who already have these beauties... and those who don't are well advised to try and find some, although it isn't so easy to do so these days - too many people know of their qualities!
  
 This is a combination that is only a whisker away from my 'reference' set-up - at a fraction of the cost... especially if you are able to get the Chathams at a fairly reasonable price.
  
 BFN...zzzzz


----------



## Lorspeaker

650mids are impossible to beat...todate; nomatterhowUstuffyourT1s....thats FINAL !!  )


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> 650mids are impossible to beat...todate; nomatterhowUstuffyourT1s....thats FINAL !!  )


 
  
 Perhaps, perhaps mon ami....but the rest of the equation? - NO CONTEST!!...


----------



## JamieMcC

lorspeaker said:


> 650mids are impossible to beat...todate; nomatterhowUstuffyourT1s....thats FINAL !!  )


 

 The HD650 mids tone is nice but I find the layering and texturing of vocals with the T1 in comparison to be on a whole different level and when well amped the T1 mids come alive the difference is a bit mindbending compared to being cold lifeless and recessed if poorly matched!
  
 I had both phones for about a year. Have a itch to try out some Planar Magnetic that needs to be scratch sometime soon...


----------



## Rossliew

nic rhodes said:


> 6AS7G and 6080 certainly ok. I am not sure about 7236 and 5998 yet as I can't find a manual on line for this so will have to measure. I am confident 6N5C and 6N13C ruskies are good to go also. Really looking forward to playing with 6SL7GT however on this. Afterall it was rolling in our little dots that led to Elise being born.




Just received email confirmation from David Zhe Zhe that the 5998/7236 tubes are compatible with the Mk 9.


----------



## Johnnysound

2359glenn said:


> Not necessarily the G3g needs less of a negative grid voltage. This is accomplished by tying  the grid to ground through a resistor having 0 volts on it.
> And having a cathode resistor to ground when the tube draws current through the cathode resistor there is a voltage drop. This makes the cathode
> positive compared to the grid at 0 so the grid is negative respect to the cathode. This is the bias voltage.


 
 Hi Glenn, I am just a beginner in all of this, but this characteristic of the C3g tube is very interesting, since it was designed for  telephone networks, it is a very efficient signal amplifier in the sense that it produces current with minimal drain on the critical line voltage.  In other words, it propels voltage forward,  As I understand this, in an SEPP OTL audio circuit, in which the power tubes  "dance" in unison with the drivers,  this one will surely take control providing a high current swing, something that big triodes really like.  At least subjectively, this tube appears to extract the most from any 6SN7s, making them sound at its best...


----------



## Johnnysound

Hi H1, and please relax, just be assured that Dynaudio speakers and Vincent amps are absolutely top class, you do not need to go into bankrupcy at least for the moment (you never know when you have this audio disease)   And yes, My SS amps (two mono NAD 2400, you know, british made.)  never sounded better than now,  driven by my humble LDMKIII, well, not so humble with  C3gs and a pair of 54 vintage 6SN7GT CBS Hytrons.    These tubes can not be described in terms of highs, bass or anything like that, if you know what I mean.  They are just eminently musical, effortless, sweet.  A true classic.  Anyway, the SS amps just love this little OTL preamp, and my other gear is gathering dust.  Do not know the technical reasons, but I do trust my ears.  I noticed your splendid Audiolab CDR/DAC, and give me a break,  now this is what we need to test the Elise.  A happy new year to you and all the friends here...


----------



## Nic Rhodes

rossliew said:


> Just received email confirmation from David Zhe Zhe that the 5998/7236 tubes are compatible with the Mk 9.


 

 Thanks


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> Hi H1, and please relax, just be assured that Dynaudio speakers and Vincent amps are absolutely top class, you do not need to go into bankrupcy at least for the moment (you never know when you have this audio disease)   And yes, My SS amps (two mono NAD 2400, you know, british made.)  never sounded better than now,  driven by my humble LDMKIII, well, not so humble with  C3gs and a pair of 54 vintage 6SN7GT CBS Hytrons.    These tubes can not be described in terms of highs, bass or anything like that, if you know what I mean.  They are just eminently musical, effortless, sweet.  A true classic.  Anyway, the SS amps just love this little OTL preamp, and my other gear is gathering dust.  Do not know the technical reasons, but I do trust my ears.  I noticed your splendid Audiolab CDR/DAC, and give me a break,  now this is what we need to test the Elise.  A happy new year to you and all the friends here...


 
  
 And to you too...
  
 Thanks for the (temporary!) reprieve, J...and yes, one can certainly get carried away with this hobby/'disease'. (But I'm still gonna have a good look around, lol!!).
  
 NAD?...Nice...
  
 And I'm sure the DAC in the Audiolab - especially when I feed it a hi-res track - is also helping to lift the Elise even higher...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Ah well, it's time for a couple more photos methinks...
  
  
                                                     
                                                                                
                                                                        Metal-base Melz/stock 6H5C with two Chathams...LOVELY!
  

  
                           A nice pair of tall-bottle 'chrome dome' GE (Sylvania) 7N7s
  
                           (Still need to make the adapters though...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## hypnos1

UPDATE from Poland.
  
 Although things obviously slow down over Christmas /New Year, Lukasz hopes for the first batch of cases and components to be available very soon, and completed units ready for shipping by (if not before) the end of this month...I wish him a following wind, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Apparently the amp has (as expected) output capacitors, but with "polypropylene bypasses for improved high frequency response".
  
 And something else of interest - they incorporate their own unique electronic noise/hum suppression feature...no wonder I experienced that deathly 'black' background! (Which may well reduce the need for any additional expensive noise reduction filters/conditioners...a very nice feature IMHO...).
  
 And don't forget the preamp out has protective circuitry for direct-coupled amps...
  
 As for optional extras, these would of necessity have to be a bit further down the road - they have taken great care to design the current set-up so that everything is optimised (as I continue to find, the more I test the amp), and so especially to keep the price competitive, additional features either 'custom built' or in MKII version would of course need sufficient sales figures to warrant any further R&D/modification costs, given that they would want to ensure any alteration works perfectly - they do NOT want to cut any corners or rush things as they did to get my own amp out (at MY bidding!)...
 But to be honest, this amp is sounding so good with just the stock configuration (and even better with simple tube 'tweaking', I don't really see any need to spend more over and above the base unit - especially as I suspect the performance through low-z cans could well be just as good as the high-z).
  
 Cheers for now.
  
 ps.  As a reminder, for those who want to take the plunge (but not a risky one IMHO!), contact Lukasz direct via email at : info@feliksaudio.pl


----------



## Rossliew

Thanks for the update, Hypnos!


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> UPDATE from Poland.
> 
> Although things obviously slow down over Christmas /New Year, Lukasz hopes for the first batch of cases and components to be available very soon, and completed units ready for shipping by (if not before) the end of this month...I wish him a following wind, lol!
> 
> ...


 
 Interesting features were getting there . Nice  .


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> UPDATE from Poland.
> 
> Although things obviously slow down over Christmas /New Year, Lukasz hopes for the first batch of cases and components to be available very soon, and completed units ready for shipping by (if not before) the end of this month...I wish him a following wind, lol!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi H1,
  
 Thanks for the details! Does the electronic noise/ hum reduction include uncoupling and filtering? I am a bit cheeky now but is the Elise based on a printed circuit or is it point-to-point wired?
  
 Cheers for the interesting update


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Hi H1,
> 
> Thanks for the details! Does the electronic noise/ hum reduction include uncoupling and filtering? I am a bit cheeky now but is the Elise based on a printed circuit or is it point-to-point wired?
> 
> Cheers for the interesting update


 
  
 Glad to oblige, boys...I still feel it's like Christmas! (well, the _good_ bits at least!!)...
  
 A11....I think it's a trade secret re the noise suppression, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but the amp is PCB based, not P to P...(doesn't seem any the worse for that though! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Have just completed one temp adapter for the 7N7s - and it works! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.. (still waiting for that slow boat, to make #2 unfortunately...), so will see how it fares partnering the Melz near the midnight
 bell...
  
 Will keep you posted...


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> Glad to oblige, boys...I still feel it's like Christmas! (well, the _good_ bits at least!!)...
> 
> A11....I think it's a trade secret re the noise suppression, lol!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Cheers H1. The 7N7-6SN7 adapter might be another one to add to the Feliks collection


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Cheers H1. The 7N7-6SN7 adapter might be another one to add to the Feliks collection


 
  
 Hi A11.
  
 Luckily they're already available on ebay, and as good 7N7s are plentiful at very reasonable prices the added cost is well worth it - my currently single one paired with the Melz (and still driving the Chathams) has me scratching my poor head once again... how can they sound this good? Either I'm being extremely lucky and getting VERY well matched different tubes, or this amp is helping to break some previously held beliefs BIG time!
 The sound is as well-balanced as the PsVane pair with four 'identical' triodes, and performing equally well if not better!
 Plus they have more 'zest' and body - certainly with the Chathams at least... Every day seems to be bringing me more and more surprises with this new amp - and I'm loving every minute of it, lol!


----------



## Nic Rhodes

re rolling on this amp, re the 6SN7GT the obvious alternatives are 7N7, 6F8g and 6CG7s all with adapters. That gives a mountain of tubes to try but if we know the current capability of the 6.3v heater then some fun ones to look at might be proper original CV181s and BL63 / BL63 PEN (the latter makes the 6F8G look a bably tube!).


----------



## hypnos1

nic rhodes said:


> re rolling on this amp, re the 6SN7GT the obvious alternatives are 7N7, 6F8g and 6CG7s all with adapters. That gives a mountain of tubes to try but if we know the current capability of the 6.3v heater then some fun ones to look at might be proper original CV181s and BL63 / BL63 PEN (the latter makes the 6F8G look a bably tube!).


 
  
 Hey Nic don't you think my poor wallet has already taken a big enough hit, lol?!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....But I bet you've got a lot more than me - not to mention a bigger wallet?!!...


----------



## gibosi

nic rhodes said:


> ................but if we know the current capability of the 6.3v heater then some fun ones to look at might be proper original CV181s and BL63 / BL63 PEN (the latter makes the 6F8G look a bably tube!).


 
  
 The BL63 heater draws 1.3A, so a pair would draw 2.6A, whereas a pair of 6SN7 draw 1.2A. I doubt that Elise has enough current to run BL63s, but the only way to know for sure is to ask them....
  
 The BL63 has the same pinout as a 6F8g. However, it is taller, so one cannot assume that a 6F8G to 6SN7 adapter will work. That is, the grid-wire may not be long enough to stretch from the pin adapter to the top cap.


----------



## Acapella11

Would the BL63 be the best substitute to your knowledge Nic and how does the gain compare Nic and Gibosi? Could both be driven using the same internal resistence?


----------



## hypnos1

Hi Nic, gibosi, Acapella11...in fact, _everyone_!
  
 Lukasz should have the full tech spec info sheet out soon, but will try to find out the heater current draw in the meantime...
  
 As for all these other tubes, unless one is a die-hard roller (with either a large stash of tubes already, and/or a very large wallet!), I am fast coming to the conclusion that one would have to spend a VAST amount of money to achieve any real 'improvement' here...I have now completed my second 7N7 adapter and, driving the Chathams, these tall-bottle 'chrome domes' are delivering a sound that IMHO should please _any_ discerning listener. With the Melz replaced by the second 7N7, the only slight difference is perhaps a tad less body - but only because the Melz is a bit of an animal, lol!...in the nicest possible way.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 I am also finally convinced that the tubes (as long as they are actually _decent_ ones) do in fact come rather further down the list of importance than I previously thought in my Little Dot rolling days...the money IS far better spent on upgrading the source, headphones and amp. Certainly with this 6SN7/7N7 family (when driving the 6AS7Gs - have yet to try the 6080) their qualities are such that in a really good amp, it would appear the performance between different tubes is surprising more for their _similarities_ than their _differences.._.but perhaps those who have a far bigger assortment than I may find differently?...Time will tell...


----------



## gibosi

acapella11 said:


> Would the BL63 be the best substitute to your knowledge Nic and how does the gain compare Nic and Gibosi? Could both be driven using the same internal resistence?


 
  
 I doubt that it is the best substitute for the 6SN7 in the Elise. Even if the Elise has enough current, the bias points are different than a 6SN7, so it may or may not sound all that great. And further, it has a gain of 12 compared to 20 for the 6SN7.
  
 That said, some report that it is a very good sounding tube. However, I do not know in which amps it was used...


----------



## Skylab

A pair of BL63 plus a pair of 6AS7G's is just over 10A total current draw...that would require a pretty beefy power trafo....


----------



## i luvmusic 2

What i really want to see is the GUTS of the Elise..........


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> What i really want to see is the GUTS of the Elise..........


 
  
 Hi ilm2...and all who would like a peek inside the gal...
  
 Have asked Lukasz if there's any chance of some pics to at least show the quality of internals, and he is looking into the possibility of doing so without giving away design secrets...so fingers crossed, guys...
  
 As for such as the BL63, apparently the trafo should have sufficient capacity to cope with about twice the stock driver current draw, but care would need to be taken that the trafo case doesn't exceed 60C...
  
 Regardless of internals, the PERFORMANCE - which surely is what matters most anyway! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - continues to be way beyond expectation, and now with a good many hours on her still without any glitches whatsoever.
  
 ps. On the subject of internals, it's interesting to see that the very impressive-looking insides of the DV339 still haven't spared it quite a few problems with users, lol...


----------



## sgbwill2

hypnos1 said:


> ps. On the subject of internals, it's interesting to see that the very impressive-looking insides of the DV339 still haven't spared it quite a few problems with users, lol...


 
 The only problems I have seen with the DV/LF339's are due to damage after transport.


----------



## hypnos1

sgbwill2 said:


> The only problems I have seen with the DV/LF339's are due to damage after transport.


 
  
 Hi sgbwill2.
  
 My searches appeared to indicate historical issues with, for example, resistors; volume pot; dust inside the amp causing a problem...but perhaps these were just isolated incidents?
  
 You obviously have more personal experience with the 339, so I bow to your own understanding of the amp...


----------



## Synthax

OK Guys, who ordered 002 model? I have been asking Łukasz and he told me tham some units are going to be send, so I have to wait for mine for feb/march.


----------



## sgbwill2

hypnos1 said:


> Hi sgbwill2.
> 
> My searches appeared to indicate historical issues with, for example, resistors; volume pot; dust inside the amp causing a problem...but perhaps these were just isolated incidents?
> 
> You obviously have more personal experience with the 339, so I bow to your own understanding of the amp...


 
 There were previous issues with the old (orange) power supply resistors but these have been replaced in the newer models so that's no longer an issue now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I haven't heard about issues with the volume pot, there was a post on the Darkvoice 339 thread about a faulty volume pot but this was damaged during transit which caused the problem, maybe there have been other incidents I have no idea. And dust can potentially be an issue with any amp if you don't clean it out after a long period of time (that is if the amp has vents for the dust to get into 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). The only thing that I dislike about this amp is how hot it gets; Its designed for the case to be a heat-sink so it gets really hot which I wish it didn't but its all part of the design to reduce the heat of the internal components and transformers.


----------



## hypnos1

skylab said:


> A pair of BL63 plus a pair of 6AS7G's is just over 10A total current draw...that would require a pretty beefy power trafo....


 
  
 Yes indeed Skylab...it looks like there is power to spare, if it should be able to handle about twice the stock driver current (according to Lukasz - but with an eye on that temp!).
  
 Ah well, he did say it was a BIG trafo...and it IS!...  Nice to know that extra is there...


----------



## Johnnysound

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Nic, gibosi, Acapella11...in fact, _everyone_!
> 
> Lukasz should have the full tech spec info sheet out soon, but will try to find out the heater current draw in the meantime...
> 
> ...


 
 Hi H1,  I suggest reading  (or re-reading) this very interesting page by Atma-Sphere:    http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/The_6AS7G.php
 In their legendary, almost cult status  OTL  amps, they use russian 6H13s (6AS7G )  driven by chinese 6SN7s.  Can you imagine this ?  Of  course, those expensive OTL amps use a LOT of tubes, so  they must keep costs  low by using current production, relatively ¨cheap¨ tubes.  The fact that their OTLs are among the very best sounding, high-end  tube amps you can find (as all the reviews say) is telling me  that in the context of a very well designed amp around the ultralinear 6AS7G tube,  the  so-called  ¨synergy¨ between driver and power tubes, the power supply implementation and the overall design are perhaps far more important than the individual ¨flavor¨ of the tubes. It is very obvious that you do not really need fancy ones here. 
  
  By your experience, I suspect that something similar happens with the Elise.  This is not a power amp of course, but it is also an OTL design that uses the same combination of tubes, it has an oversized power transformer and even AC power regulation, (which BTW is a nice detail in this price range).  I would really like to hear some illustrative opinions by the tube experts here, specially around why with this  driver-power pairing in this particular design,  some humble tubes really shine, rivaling much more ´´prestigious´´ ones...


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Good to know the 63 are a possibility but as I have said already, I don't really see this as a rollers amp a la LD 1, 11 and 111s. Here we are substituting 6SN7GTs / 7N7 etc. There are a few other we can try (I suspect 63 should be okay here which is why I raised it) but I think the best advice is stick to 6SN7GT, 7N7 and 6F8s (the latter two with adapters) especially if you don't have these expensive tubes already. After all there was little interest in 3A/167M or 437 on the LDs as probably they were new purchases for many and were seen as expensive in contrast to the amp. There is so much cheap choice on 6SN7GTs, this is the draw to an amp like this.
  
 The Mk9 is here


----------



## i luvmusic 2

IHMO the DV/LF339's have a lot of potential to be MODDED with better parts(not saying what is inside are crap)which  is that's what i'am after for a tube amps.For the ELISE being a PCB base designed might be a biatch to work with.........


----------



## gibosi

nic rhodes said:


> .....After all there was little interest in 3A/167M or 437 on the LDs as probably they were new purchases for many and were seen as expensive in contrast to the amp.....


 
  
 I am interested, but the lowest price I have seen for a pair of 3A/167M is about $600. And this is simply way too expensive for my wallet! lol.


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> Hi H1,  I suggest reading  (or re-reading) this very interesting page by Atma-Sphere:    http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/The_6AS7G.php
> In their legendary, almost cult status  OTL  amps, they use russian 6H13s (6AS7G )  driven by chinese 6SN7s.  Can you imagine this ?  Of  course, those expensive OTL amps use a LOT of tubes, so  they must keep costs  low by using current production, relatively ¨cheap¨ tubes.  The fact that their OTLs are among the very best sounding, high-end  tube amps you can find (as all the reviews say) is telling me  that in the context of a very well designed amp around the ultralinear 6AS7G tube,  the  so-called  ¨synergy¨ between driver and power tubes, the power supply implementation and the overall design are perhaps far more important than the individual ¨flavor¨ of the tubes. It is very obvious that you do not really need fancy ones here.
> 
> By your experience, I suspect that something similar happens with the Elise.  This is not a power amp of course, but it is also an OTL design that uses the same combination of tubes, it has an oversized power transformer and even AC power regulation, (which BTW is a nice detail in this price range).  I would really like to hear some illustrative opinions by the tube experts here, specially around why with this  driver-power pairing in this particular design,  some humble tubes really shine, rivaling much more ´´prestigious´´ ones...


 
  
 Thanks J...you have cheered me up no end - that's great news both for the amp (and the Feliks guys, of course!) and for me personally...I was beginning to wonder whether my ears were letting me down badly when trying to compare tubes!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Plus you (and Atma-Sphere) have confirmed that I don't need to spend a whole load more on different tubes...wonderful news - not just for me but everyone else who is interested in this (increasingly) wonderful amp.
  
 And yes, as Nic (and others) say, humble tubes can indeed rival much more 'prestigious' and vastly more expensive ones...(mind you, see below 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 As an update to the 2 tall-bottle 'chrome dome' 7N7s, with further burn-in of the adapters the Chatham 6AS7Gs are REALLY liking them - a wonderful combination...so I thought it was time to pop in the GEC CV2523s and see what's what. Well, although not really worth the current asking price for these beauties, there IS a difference (through the T1s, anyway) - greater 'holographic' stage/imaging; more micro detail; slightly greater extension to bass and treble; 'smoother' overall presentation, due to a tad more control and perfect balance across the entire frequency range - no one section dominates at all. In other words, a touch of extra-special magic...and don't forget the added sparkle that comes from knowing just how much one has paid for this extra, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
   Which, given each of these qualities was already present in abundance beforehand is all the more remarkable...so IF you strike gold at some time and come across these tubes being offered by some poor soul who doesn't realise what they have, SNAP THEM UP FAST - unless I beat you to it!!


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> IHMO the DV/LF339's have a lot of potential to be MODDED with better parts(not saying what is inside are crap)which  is that's what i'am after for a tube amps.For the ELISE being a PCB base designed might be a biatch to work with.........


 
  
 Hi ilm2.
  
 I applaud your modding skills but to be honest, I think the team of professionals at Feliks-Audio probably have far greater knowledge and expertise at optimising amp topology than most mere amateurs, who often end up experimenting with things that either don't really achieve any great benefit (and perhaps with disastrous results!) or minimal gain for maximum cost, lol!!
  
 But I'm sure it is (or _can _be!) lots o' fun...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Happy modding!...


----------



## Acapella11

For my part, I am not planning to mod my amps and looking at the Little Dot, I had a lot of fun without. 

Johnnysound and H1, actually, I posted this info about the 6AS7G, on page 37, as an interesting read  Yeah, it is indeed very interesting and flattering that Atma-Sphere uses even the same tube combination.


----------



## JamieMcC

hypnos1 said:


> Hi ilm2.
> 
> I applaud your modding skills but to be honest, I think the team of professionals at Feliks-Audio probably have far greater knowledge and expertise at optimising amp topology than most mere amateurs, who often end up experimenting with things that either don't really achieve any great benefit (and perhaps with disastrous results!) or minimal gain for maximum cost, lol!!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Building a good sounding budget tube amp commercially is always going to be a challenge and a balancing act between profit margins and budgets for componentry as such there will always be significant room for modification/improvment even if its only swapping out one part for another of higher quality.
  
 Some times small mods can bring nice improvements for very little expense a nice example would be the Russian surplus Teflon capacitors that cost less than a cup of coffee.
  
 Considering the potential costs involved when it comes to rolling four mid tier tubes let alone something like the GEC or 5998's or sought after 6sn7's the costs of modifying are pretty insignificant. Tube swapping can be very rewarding and great fun but it can equally be a bit of a crap shoot highly dependent highly on the quality of each tube. 
  
 +1 for a under the hood pic by the way.


----------



## mordy

Hi Nic,
  
 Any first impression of the MK9?


----------



## Nic Rhodes

yes  getting there  just swapping out a chinese tube (yuk).


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> For my part, I am not planning to mod my amps and looking at the Little Dot, I had a lot of fun without.
> 
> Johnnysound and H1, actually, I posted this info about the 6AS7G, on page 37, as an interesting read  Yeah, it is indeed very interesting and flattering that Atma-Sphere uses even the same tube combination.


 
  
 Hi A11.
  
 Yes, indeed you did...(yet) another of my 'senior' moments I'm afraid!  And yes, this tube combination is truly a marriage made in Heaven, lol!
  


jamiemcc said:


> Building a good sounding budget tube amp commercially is always going to be a challenge and a balancing act between profit margins and budgets for componentry as such there will always be significant room for modification/improvment even if its only swapping out one part for another of higher quality.
> 
> Some times small mods can bring nice improvements for very little expense a nice example would be the Russian surplus Teflon capacitors that cost less than a cup of coffee.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I hear you Jamie....however, the sound coming out of this amp is SO good that I wouldn't even consider playing around with it for a VERY long time, if _ever__!_ - plus it has a *TWO* year warranty, don't forget...(and you know as well as I a good few people have come unstuck tinkering around inside amps! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 And as I have already mentioned, you will NOT need expensive tubes to get a great sound out of this amp...the cherry on top of the cake, lol!!
  
  
 On the topic of tubes, it looks like the metal-base Melz just might fall under your "bit of a crap shoot" heading!..viz. with two used ones having to go back and now my NOS one also(!), I just thought I would have a closer check of my one remaining good tube. And I've found that there is increasing 'hiss' as I turn up the volume knob, but luckily it's only noticeable beyond listenable levels...none of my other drivers do this however...so I don't think I'll be bothering with any more - especially as the 7N7s are proving so good  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(and not too expensive! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Great 6AS7Gs, 6SN7GTs and 6SL7GTs are cheap. Great E88CCs / 6922s are not cheap....makes you think about the amps you want to use. This is downside of the WA2 and Lyr ownership.


----------



## lukeap69

nic rhodes said:


> Great 6AS7Gs, 6SN7GTs and 6SL7GTs are cheap. Great E88CCs / 6922s are not cheap....makes you think about the amps you want to use. This is downside of the WA2 and Lyr ownership.




Yeah, I'm a Lyr 2 owner so I know what you talkin' about...


----------



## MIKELAP

nic rhodes said:


> Great 6AS7Gs, 6SN7GTs and 6SL7GTs are cheap. Great E88CCs / 6922s are not cheap....makes you think about the amps you want to use. This is downside of the WA2 and Lyr ownership.


 
 At least they are still affortable for now,when i look at the top tubes needed for the WA5, Elrogs and all of those way to much money .


----------



## Lorspeaker

this Feliz amp might drive up the prices for 6as7s n 6sn7s..


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> this Feliz amp might drive up the prices for 6as7s n 6sn7s..


 
  
 Hi L...I'm sure Lukasz would be really flattered if that were to happen!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 Luckily, as Nic says there are plenty around...and hopefully those who don't already have a good supply heeded my suggestion a fair while back to get stocking, lol!!
  
 Following on from my previous post re the Melz tubes, my advice now is NOT to bother with them at all...that one remaining 'good' tube - that 'hissed' only at very high volume levels is now hissing at low levels, so back goes this one as well...that makes four now! My patience and optimism have finally run out...shame, because they did add a bit more sparkle to the top end and a tad more to the bottom. However, on the plus side I can now turn up the volume higher without pushing the poor old ears a bit too far, and brings the mids a bit more into play...which makes for a bit smoother overall presentation. So in a way, I'm not at all disappointed...


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Following on from my previous post re the Melz tubes, my advice now is NOT to bother with them at all...that one remaining 'good' tube - that 'hissed' only at very high volume levels is now hissing at low levels, so back goes this one as well...that makes four now! My patience and optimism have finally run out...shame, because they did add a bit more sparkle to the top end and a tad more to the bottom.


 
  
 To be clear....  Are these the metal base Melz with the holes in the plates?


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> To be clear....  Are these the metal base Melz with the holes in the plates?


 
  
 Hi gibosi.
  
 These are NOT the ones with the ROUND holes (which are VERY expensive/rare)...just the usual small rectangular holes. Hope this clarifies things...


----------



## Nic Rhodes

mikelap said:


> At least they are still affortable for now,when i look at the top tubes needed for the WA5, Elrogs and all of those way to much money .


 

  25+ years ago when I was designing and buying my first 300b amps, the 300B tubes were silly money for the quality tubes. They still are. The 6SN7GT, 6SL7GT and 6V6GT were cheap then and still are...a pattern?


----------



## hypnos1

synthax said:


> OK Guys, who ordered 002 model? I have been asking Łukasz and he told me tham some units are going to be send, so I have to wait for mine for feb/march.


 
  
 Hi Synthax.
  
 Yes indeed, it looks like the pre-orders are well and truly in - I do hope you don't have _too_ long a wait...but I can assure you it will be WELL worth it, lol!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## hypnos1

Time to inject a bit more 'colour' to the thread...
  
 I know I can be somewhat(!) prone to hyperbole in my descriptions but my latest sampling has pushed me to even greater heights of excitement/wonder - and for which I am sure no-one would be able to accuse me of OTT exaggeration, if following my footsteps.
  
 I refer to "Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of War of the Worlds" (remastered). I have always found this work quite amazing on many fronts, but with my current set-up I now see this as a true masterpiece...of content, music and vocal performance, and sound engineering.
  
 From the word go you know you are in for something special...anyone(?!) who may have ever had doubts about Richard Burton's talents would surely be converted just by his opening introduction to the work. The amazing rich tones, texture and sheer poetry of his voice are reproduced even more dramatically by this amp (with 2 7N7s driving the GECs - I can spoil myself, can't I? But be assured, more modest power tubes wouldn't be too far behind!)...it's hairs on the back of the neck PLUS tingles down the spine time _par excellence_ here.
  
 And when the 'alienised' special sound effects come in, 3D 'holographic' stage and imaging hardly begins to describe what happens inside your head - I have NEVER experienced such 'surround' sound from a stereo track in all my life...the recording engineer truly achieved miracles with this work, and certainly manages to turn your head inside out and upside down...if you know what I mean! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(the disc probably helps by it also doubling as a 5.1  SACD offering).
  
 The Beyer T1s obviously help a good deal here, so all I can say is if you do give this work a listen - and you really MUST - please try to beg, steal or borrow some top flight cans (if you don't already own some) and treat yourself to quite an amazing experience... And while you're at it, add to the fun and savour the sheer dynamism ( _and_ occasional delicacy) of my oft-mentioned recommendation - the music soundtrack to 'Gladiator'. If after both of these your heart is not pounding ( let alone your head!), I would suggest getting down to the doc real fast and have a thorough ECG test!!
  
 Cheers!


----------



## JamieMcC

hypnos1 said:


> Time to inject a bit more 'colour' to the thread...
> 
> I know I can be somewhat(!) prone to hyperbole in my descriptions but my latest sampling has pushed me to even greater heights of excitement/wonder - and for which I am sure no-one would be able to accuse me of OTT exaggeration, if following my footsteps.
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's a favourite of mine as well and was only listening to it the other day with my T1's (cd not sacd)  its just great fun and with all kind of effects that I just wasn't appreciating prior to my T1/Sex combo the first time I properly heard the unscrewing of the cylinder at the start wowzers! Its never ever sounded like that before.


----------



## Johnnysound

acapella11 said:


> For my part, I am not planning to mod my amps and looking at the Little Dot, I had a lot of fun without.
> 
> Johnnysound and H1, actually, I posted this info about the 6AS7G, on page 37, as an interesting read  Yeah, it is indeed very interesting and flattering that Atma-Sphere uses even the same tube combination.


 
 Yes A11, I learned of that interesting page from your post, sorry I forgot to quote you on this...


----------



## hypnos1

jamiemcc said:


> That's a favourite of mine as well and was only listening to it the other day with my T1's (cd not sacd)  its just great fun and with all kind of effects that I just wasn't appreciating prior to my T1/Sex combo the first time I properly heard the unscrewing of the cylinder at the start wowzers! Its never ever sounded like that before.


 
  
 Too right Jamie...anyone and any_thing_ that can make the unscrewing of a lid sound so _scary_ is just pure genius!...And as for those other weird sound effects shooting around all over the place - one has to hear it to believe it...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Johnnysound

hypnos1 said:


> Time to inject a bit more 'colour' to the thread...
> 
> I know I can be somewhat(!) prone to hyperbole in my descriptions but my latest sampling has pushed me to even greater heights of excitement/wonder - and for which I am sure no-one would be able to accuse me of OTT exaggeration, if following my footsteps.
> 
> ...


 
  
 And the Elise (as any component) should improve after some 50 hours or so...I suspect you already passed the mark ¡¡


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> And the Elise (as any component) should improve after some 50 hours or so...I suspect you already passed the mark ¡¡


 
  
 Hi J....oh yes...WELL past it, lol (100 + easily!). Mention is often made about the need for tube burn-in, but sometimes I think the need for plenty of time re everything else in the signal line is rather overlooked...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(for example the difference time makes to even the pure silver wire I use in my adapters is quite noticeable). And when you look at all the components inside an amp, it's a wonder we don't have to wait an eternity before the thing is listenable!!
  
 And on this note, I am now happy to confirm the Elise develops EXTREMELY nicely...and confirms (to me anyway) that it comes at a SILLY price for such performance/scaleability...but sshhh...don't tell Lukasz!


----------



## Johnnysound

hypnos1 said:


> Hi J....oh yes...WELL past it, lol (100 + easily!). Mention is often made about the need for tube burn-in, but sometimes I think the need for plenty of time re everything else in the signal line is rather overlooked...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 It would be nice to know just what components are properly "burning" inside the Elise...still a big mistery.


----------



## Lorspeaker

...n how it handles low impedence cans...waiting for serial number 002, 003 to share their views.


----------



## gibosi

johnnysound said:


> It would be nice to know just what components are properly "burning" inside the Elise...still a big mistery.


 
  
 Well, it's not a big mystery I think....  Resisters, capacitors, chokes, a large transformer and a solid state rectifier all mounted on a circuit board would be my guess. lol. 
  
 But we need to give H1 a break...  Since he has a pre-production unit, I think we should all assume that he is essentially operating under something like an NDA (non disclosure agreement). And therefore, he does not feel free to disassemble and photograph the amp. However, now that the amp is available for sale to the general public, I would assume there is nothing preventing any future buyer from posting pictures. So I think we all need to be patient. It shouldn't be long before pictures are available....


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Well, it's not a big mystery I think....  Resisters, capacitors, chokes, a large transformer and a solid state rectifier all mounted on a circuit board would be my guess. lol.
> 
> But we need to give H1 a break...  Since he has a pre-production unit, I think we should all assume that he is essentially operating under something like an NDA (non disclosure agreement). And therefore, he does not feel free to disassemble and photograph the amp. However, now that the amp is available for sale to the general public, I would assume there is nothing preventing any future buyer from posting pictures. So I think we all need to be patient. It shouldn't be long before pictures are available....


 
  
 Thanks, gibosi, for your supportive/understanding words...fortunately I haven't had to sign my life away, but it's more an implicit understanding - I respect Lukasz's wishes, and I do try to maintain _some_ values in an often valueless World, lol!
  
  
 Hey guys, I fully get the enthusiast/DIYers' interest in what makes our equipment tick and possible improvements, but just a couple of pointers...
  
 1...Put yourself in their shoes - you've invested a good deal of time, effort and money in research and development in the quest to gain an edge over the competition in a very competitive market (especially given Far East costings)...would _you_ want to give it all away for free? (again, given the propensity of certain cost-cutting nations to COPY Western technical know-how!)..._I_ most certainly wouldn't !!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 2...Do you really want to invalidate your 2-year warranty?...Again, _I_ certainly do not!
  
 Hopefully, food for thought...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps. Perhaps Lukasz just _might _be able to manage something acceptable both to him _and_ us...I do sincerely hope so...


----------



## Lorspeaker

i cant differentiate betw a transistor and a capacitor .. or are they the same stuff.. 
 good enuf if i know where to plug in the 1/4 in plug..and the power plug..


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> i cant differentiate betw a transistor and a capacitor .. or are they the same stuff..
> good enuf if i know where to plug in the 1/4 in plug..and the power plug..


 
  
 No modding for _you_ then, L!!...


----------



## Johnnysound

hypnos1 said:


> Thanks, gibosi, for your supportive/understanding words...fortunately I haven't had to sign my life away, but it's more an implicit understanding - I respect Lukasz's wishes, and I do try to maintain _some_ values in an often valueless World, lol!
> 
> 
> Hey guys, I fully get the enthusiast/DIYers' interest in what makes our equipment tick and possible improvements, but just a couple of pointers...
> ...


 
  
 Gibosi and you are right of course, sorry for the impartience... just curiosity.  And if it sounds so good...who cares about whats inside  ¡¡


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> Gibosi and you are right of course, sorry for the impartience... just curiosity.  And if it sounds so good...who cares about whats inside  ¡¡


 
  
 Hi J.
  
 It's cool... to tell the truth I'm just as curious, but "c'est-la-vie", non?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




..
  
 Cheers...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I do care what is inside,need to know what i'am paying for.........


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I do care what is inside,need to know what i'am paying for.........


 
  
 Hi ilm2.
  
 What you're paying for is a sound WAY beyond its price point, lol!
  
 You know only too well what I (and others) achieved with the LD MKIV SE - especially my C3GS/GEC CV2523 combo!!... now with my adapters nicely burned in, the humble 7N7s driving the GECs are in a totally different league. There is simply no comparison... and this amp is STILL getting better and better.
  
 All I know is I've got FAR more than I paid for, lol!!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Paying for sound is nothing if the parts are CRAP that it will not last anyway.


----------



## MIKELAP

The way i look at it the amp is not officially out yet because i dont see it on there website went it is officially for sale we should get more detail its the logical thing to do  .Live long and prosper.


----------



## Lorspeaker

mk4se for slightly less than 500 at massdrop...


----------



## Johnnysound

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Paying for sound is nothing if the parts are CRAP that it will not last anyway.


 
  
 Well, in my view this level of SQ just cant be obtained with crap components.  We dont know exactly what the parts are, but beginning with the power trafo,  Its a big one custom made in Poland, not an OEM thing of unknown origin.  This is not exactly crap, the power trafo is a  critical piece in an OTL tube amp  (no output trafo) and the most expensive one,  so well thought, remember that the 6AS7G type is known to need current to sound its best, and to drive low impedance headphones of course. First impressions of the Elise by H1 like a "silent background", great bass and dynamic abilities  were based on the standard tubes,  so its SQ is not  "tube related", it cames from a good   overall design, in which the power supply is of prime importance.  They put the money where it matters most, soundwise. To keep costs reasonable, I imagine they used  reliable and proven internal components, maybe not fancy ones, but surely not "crap".   
  
 To illustrate the idea, my experience with  different components, using speakers, going from "stereo" to dual mono amps (with 5 times the power needed), I experienced something similar,  this black background and great dynamics, a relaxed and "majestic" sound, a sense of "authority"  which is very difficult to explain.   It is not about tonality but of presentation, one devoided of any hint of strain or tension. I have no technical explanation,  I call it latent power or reserve power (I bet this is what happens with the Elise).   And this was with solid state gear. Switching to a modded LDIII as preamp,  the effect was even more intense,  like it was made to drive SS amps. Not only that, my veteran NADs sounded like never before: gloriously, like 300 watt per side megabuck tube amps. My classic DCM powered, big US TL towers (zero WAF) are 93 db eff, and yes,  they can sound LOUD with 30 watts/ch.,  but they sound magnificent with dual  250 watt amps , driven by this nice little OTL pre.  Bass ? please dont make me laugh, with the C3gs, and some 6SN7GT like the Hytrons or GTB  ITT Japan the thing just hit nice and deep.  Anyway, top flight HPs  (like H1 Teslas)  are not toys but monitoring devices, and I bet they will reveal all ot this...


----------



## Johnnysound

And after my long post, I forgot to comment about my personal conclusion:  if the Elise is so clearly superior to even the best LD models as an HP amp, and being a dual purpose unit, all my audio instincts are telling me that this one will be a truly KILLER preamp.  Again, no idea why an OTL tube HP pre combines so well with SS amps (at least with mine)  but as I said before, if it is designed to drive top class HPs, then it should be ultra precise, distortion free, and MUST sound superior to any standard preamp...


----------



## Lorspeaker

johnnysound said:


> And after my long post, I forgot to comment about my personal conclusion:  if the Elise is so clearly superior to even the best LD models as an HP amp, and being a dual purpose unit, all my audio instincts are telling me that this one will be a truly KILLER preamp.  Again, no idea why an OTL tube HP pre combines so well with SS amps (at least with mine)  but as I said before, if it is designed to drive top class HPs, then it should be ultra precise, distortion free, and MUST sound superior to any standard preamp...


 
  
  
 hi Johnny...u have the Elise too?


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> Well, in my view this level of SQ just cant be obtained with crap components.  We dont know exactly what the parts are, but beginning with the power trafo,  Its a big one custom made in Poland, not an OEM thing of unknown origin.  This is not exactly crap, the power trafo is a  critical piece in an OTL tube amp  (no output trafo) and the most expensive one,  so well thought, remember that the 6AS7G type is known to need current to sound its best, and to drive low impedance headphones of course. First impressions of the Elise by H1 like a "silent background", great bass and dynamic abilities  were based on the standard tubes,  so its SQ is not  "tube related", it cames from a good   overall design, in which the power supply is of prime importance.  They put the money where it matters most, soundwise. To keep costs reasonable, I imagine they used  reliable and proven internal components, maybe not fancy ones, but surely not "crap".
> 
> To illustrate the idea, my experience with  different components, using speakers, going from "stereo" to dual mono amps (with 5 times the power needed), I experienced something similar,  this black background and great dynamics, a relaxed and "majestic" sound, a sense of "authority"  which is very difficult to explain.   It is not about tonality but of presentation, one devoided of any hint of strain or tension. I have no technical explanation,  I call it latent power or reserve power (I bet this is what happens with the Elise).   And this was with solid state gear. Switching to a modded LDIII as preamp,  the effect was even more intense,  like it was made to drive SS amps. Not only that, my veteran NADs sounded like never before: gloriously, like 300 watt per side megabuck tube amps. My classic DCM powered, big US TL towers (zero WAF) are 93 db eff, and yes,  they can sound LOUD with 30 watts/ch.,  but they sound magnificent with dual  250 watt amps , driven by this nice little OTL pre.  Bass ? please dont make me laugh, with the C3gs, and some 6SN7GT like the Hytrons or GTB  ITT Japan the thing just hit nice and deep.  Anyway, top flight HPs  (like H1 Teslas)  are not toys but monitoring devices, and I bet they will reveal all ot this...


 
  
 Yes indeed J...all I can say is that anyone who can achieve such a performance using "crap" components must be a genius of the HIGHEST calibre, lol!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Talking of performance, I thought I would revisit some of my earlier test pieces....and WOW, what a difference a few weeks can make : voices that on just a few tracks could sound a _tad_ in the distance, or slightly dominated by instruments are now perfectly positioned - not too close, not too far - and well balanced with the instruments.
  
 Even greater detail is evident, especially in the treble (the T1s really do help here as well), plus an increased delicacy and finesse that rather caught me by surprise - particularly in Moussorgsky's "Great Gate at Kiev" (Pictures at an Exhibition). Even amidst the full orchestral onslaught, the triangle managed to hold its own without having to be over-emphasised in the recording mix - to maintain such a delicate touch and position in the midst of the storm I find truly remarkable.
  
 Another surprise came when I tried an older test piece that I (wrongly!) thought may not be quite good enough for full appraisal - ELO's "Out of the Blue". I had believed my previous set-up had done full justice to this old(ish) recording, but once again I wasn't prepared for the result - that old cliché : 'like hearing it for the first time'. And yet another extremely good bit of work by the recording engineer - cymbal 'splash' and decay on "Turn to Stone" was especially 'delicious', along with extra detail/positioning/separation across the entire range. And something I hadn't fully appreciated before - the degree of _subtle_ positioning by the engineer of lead and backing vocals (as opposed to the more obvious, contrived sort!). What I had always thought of as sometimes not quite right positioning of the lead - slightly distant - I now see as perfectly right for the particular pieces, and balanced meticulously as the track progresses...I now realise this must be another aspect more efficiently handled and highlighted by better equipment...(So much to learn, so little time!!)...


----------



## Mechans1

Hi  I have not been following this as my simple questions will show but-I am very interested in a 6SN7 6080 amp as described in the forum header.  Does Feliks Audio make a model like this? I though there was a model called the Expressivio or something like that but don't see it for sale.  Another question is -are these amps made for American /USA voltages?
 Thanks in Advance-Steve


----------



## Johnnysound

lorspeaker said:


> hi Johnny...u have the Elise too?


 
 Not yet, Lors.  Hope can get one soon...


----------



## JamieMcC

mechans1 said:


> Hi  I have not been following this as my simple questions will show but-I am very interested in a 6SN7 6080 amp as described in the forum header.  Does Feliks Audio make a model like this? I though there was a model called the Expressivio or something like that but don't see it for sale.  Another question is -are these amps made for American /USA voltages?
> Thanks in Advance-Steve


 
  
 The Bottlehead Crack will also do the 6SN7 6080 combo you just need to use a 12au7 to 6sn7 adapter readily available on ebay. I prefer running it with the 6sn7 myself.


----------



## hypnos1

mechans1 said:


> Hi  I have not been following this as my simple questions will show but-I am very interested in a 6SN7 6080 amp as described in the forum header.  Does Feliks Audio make a model like this? I though there was a model called the Expressivio or something like that but don't see it for sale.  Another question is -are these amps made for American /USA voltages?
> Thanks in Advance-Steve


 
  
 Hi Steve.
  
 These guys have indeed now made a model with this configuration - the 'Elise'. I have been putting the first unit through its paces for a few weeks now, and it is certainly proving to be quite an amazing achievement - especially so at this price point ($500).
  
 It will be available for both EU and USA voltages, and the first main production units should hopefully be ready by the end of this month...initial orders are being taken via direct email contact with Lukasz : info@feliksaudio.pl
  
 You might like to go back through the posts to get more of an idea about this unit - I posted a video on its arrival, along with initial impressions (page 35, post #520) and further assessments in posts 555 & 557. More findings and info follow in later posts.
  
 Hope this gives you something to be starting with 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 Edit...further posts indexed on post#1 of this thread...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I'am not trying to say that this amp is made of "CRAP" components i just want to know what I or WE are paying for.


----------



## hypnos1

A quick note for folks who may not have been able to plough through all the posts (or those who want a refresher!)...I have started an index of those that may be of more interest on post #1.
  
 An update also regarding drivers...it is becoming quite clear that you may well not have to be too worried about 'identical' 6SN7s - various combinations have all proved worth trying, with no untoward results whatsoever...on the contrary, sometimes with _improved_ results!
 To date I have mixed Melz 6H8C with PsVane CV181TII and stock 6H5C; PsVane with GE (Sylvania) tall-bottle 'chrome dome', 2-hole grey parallel plate 7N7 and short-bottle 'chrome dome', 3-hole angled black plate 7N7; and the two different 7N7s themselves. All sounded excellent, with the PsVane/7N7 and 2 7N7 combos just a whisker ahead of even 2 PsVanes...
  
 So I hope others will experiment with different combinations and give us all your findings...when your own little marvels finally arrive at your doorsteps, that is!...I think I am as eager as yourselves for that happy day, lol


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Do we know the heater current capacity of the transformer for the output valve yet? (the 6AS7G).


----------



## gibosi

I don't think we know precisely, but I am quite sure there is not enough current to heat a pair of 6336.


----------



## hypnos1

nic rhodes said:


> Do we know the heater current capacity of the transformer for the output valve yet? (the 6AS7G).


 
  
 Hi Nic.
  
 Another question for Lukasz!...
  
 Cheers.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

gibosi said:


> I don't think we know precisely, but I am quite sure there is not enough current to heat a pair of 6336.


 
  
 They are 4.75a I think, I was also wondering about the 5a 6528 :GRIN:


----------



## hypnos1

nic rhodes said:


> They are 4.75a I think, I was also wondering about the 5a 6528 :GRIN:


 
  
 WOW Nic...I smell toast, lol!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

They are cheapish still as few amps can use them because of the current


----------



## gibosi

nic rhodes said:


> They are 4.75a I think, I was also wondering about the 5a 6528 :GRIN:


 
  
 The 6336A and 6336B are also 5a. And I have a nice pair of Cetron 6336B waiting for my Glenn OTL.


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> nic rhodes said:
> 
> 
> > They are 4.75a I think, I was also wondering about the 5a 6528 :GRIN:
> ...


 

 These tubes shouldn't even be mentioned as they will burn up most amps.
 The amp will have to have a monster transformer to handle them.
 Filament current as well as pate current but they can drive low impedance phones well on a OTL.


----------



## Skylab

Not just that but the 6528 is a truly horrible sounding tube.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

2359glenn said:


> These tubes shouldn't even be mentioned as they will burn up most amps.
> The amp will have to have a monster transformer to handle them.
> Filament current as well as pate current but they can drive low impedance phones well on a OTL.


 

  Exactly why I was asking after the capability of the amp.


----------



## 2359glenn

A 6336 will act like a 6AS7 when biased like one except for the filament current.
 When run properly the 6336 can handle 200ma of plate current per plate 30 watts dissipation per plate


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> And after my long post, I forgot to comment about my personal conclusion:  if the Elise is so clearly superior to even the best LD models as an HP amp, and being a dual purpose unit, all my audio instincts are telling me that this one will be a truly KILLER preamp.  Again, no idea why an OTL tube HP pre combines so well with SS amps (at least with mine)  but as I said before, if it is designed to drive top class HPs, then it should be ultra precise, distortion free, and MUST sound superior to any standard preamp...


 
  
 Hi J.
  
 I can now confirm your audio instincts are not letting you down, mon ami - having endured yet another mind-blowing experience putting some Mike Oldfield tracks through their paces (these T1s were made for such pieces!), I thought it would be very interesting to see just what might happen when preamping to the SS Vincent and Dynaudios...well, I think I'm finally running out of superlatives (and Heaven knows I have - and have used -  a fair collection of those, lol!).
  
 Well, first off, I am happy to say I definitely do NOT need to upgrade either the Vincent _or_ the Dynaudios ( my previous comments re that possible necessity I now rescind entirely!).
 My system has never sounded like this - voices and individual instruments just floated in front, above and around me in a way that was rather eerie...but wonderfully so. This is the fist time home listening has come anywhere near a live experience.
 My Dynaudio woofers are not at all large, but the bass they were putting out was impressively deep, taut and richly detailed. Treble to die for and voices perfectly in balance, with excellent tone, texture and 'emotion'. This CD collection - "The Best of Mike Oldfield...Elements" -  has an extremely wide range of instruments (and effects).. that must be one of the best for assessment purposes IMHO...(coupled with first-rate sound engineering/recording).
  I was going to pick out certain tracks for special mention, but actually they ALL give pertinent elements that warrant scrutiny...close analysis has never been more enjoyable!
  
 The overall impression was of the sort of sound I have only ever heard while 'window shopping' megabuck equipment I could never afford...and surpassing _many_ set-ups that were supposedly 'affordable' extreme hi-fi but still beyond my pocket.
 .
 So J, yes...this Elise is most definitely the 'KILLER' preamp you mentioned...not just a 'killer' HP amp  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## MIKELAP




----------



## lukeap69

I thought for a while you were talking about Samsung...


----------



## lukeap69

Clicking at the photo on feliks site will bring you to the first page of this thread! Cool.


----------



## Acapella11

Amazing pic from Feliks for the Elise and what a link from the Feliks page!! Thanks for the infos Mikelap and lukeap69 and Congrats Hypnos1! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 This pic belongs on the first page of the thread!


----------



## lukeap69

Agreed!


----------



## MIKELAP

Well i just put myself on the interested list and will see how that develops what i like is that it is possible to buy the amp without tubes you dont save a fortune but it covers a good part of shipping cost .                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Forgot to ask this to them  ,hypnos1 do you know how much the amp weights and how thick is the cover of the amp is it sturdy.


----------



## hypnos1

WOW guys...thanks to all for your findings and sharing. Great job! (That link has certainly taken me aback!).
  
 Good point re pics on the first page and not just references...will get on it tomorrow (I hear calls from someone not too far from here, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
 But before I disappear, I must pass on the latest info I have just received from Lukasz....as suspected, the New Year break is causing him slight frustration with some of his component suppliers, so there will indeed be a bit of a delay in the first production units, but he hopes by just 1 to 2 weeks.
  
 He is also working on feasible internal pics, plus more specific info on components, which should be forthcoming before the first units ship...
  
 CHEERS guys   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps. Am awaiting full current ratings for the power/output tubes...might be here before the (my!) night is out...


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Well i just put myself on the interested list and will see how that develops what i like is that it is possible to buy the amp without tubes you dont save a fortune but it covers a good part of shipping cost .                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Forgot to ask this to them  ,hypnos1 do you know how much the amp weights and how thick is the cover of the amp is it sturdy.


 
  
 Hi MIKELAP...the good lady will just have to wait a bit longer! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Thanks for your discovery...I must have been asleep, lol!
  
 Will put her on the scales tomorrow, and yes, she's REAL sturdy.
  
 'Bye for now...


----------



## Lorspeaker

mikelap said:


> Well i just put myself on the interested list and will see how that develops what i like is that it is possible to buy the amp without tubes you dont save a fortune but it covers a good part of shipping cost .


 
  
 what would the stock tubes be..?   how much would that take off the cost of the amp?


----------



## MIKELAP

lorspeaker said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Well i just put myself on the interested list and will see how that develops what i like is that it is possible to buy the amp without tubes you dont save a fortune but it covers a good part of shipping cost .
> ...


 
 I think they are  Russian tubes from what hynos1 said  I was told that without tubes its $50.00 off the price of the amp and shipping is $70.00 so total would be around $520.00 + customs + currency exchange = $775.00  approx in my case  not cheap damm currency exchange and taxes adds 50% to the price incredible .


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> I think they are  Russian tubes from what hynos1 said  I was told that without tubes its $50.00 off the price of the amp and shipping is $70.00 so total would be around $520.00 + customs + currency exchange = $775.00  approx in my case  not cheap damm currency exchange and taxes adds 50% to the price incredible .


 
  
 Hi M.
  
 Boy, do you get hammered by the bloodsuckers! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 And Lorspeaker...Yes, the stock tubes are Russian 6H5C and 6N13S, so if you have a couple of half-decent 6SN7s (you do NOT need the (over!)-priced ones) and 6AS7Gs (the 6N13Ss actually being very good, as you know...), then you might as well save yourself that $50 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 M...put her on the not-hyper-accurate scales and she comes in at _about_ 5kg. And as I mentioned, she's VERY sturdy/rigid....


----------



## Rossliew

mikelap said:


> I think they are  Russian tubes from what hynos1 said  I was told that without tubes its $50.00 off the price of the amp and shipping is $70.00 so total would be around $520.00 + customs + currency exchange = $775.00  approx in my case  not cheap damm currency exchange and taxes adds 50% to the price incredible .


 

 I share your pain Mike. If i were to import them, it would cost me $499 + $95 shipping + customs (25%) = $742. With our even worse currency exchange (MYR/USD), it would cost about MYR2,673 
  
 BUT, i believe they are worth every cent


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > I think they are  Russian tubes from what hynos1 said  I was told that without tubes its $50.00 off the price of the amp and shipping is $70.00 so total would be around $520.00 + customs + currency exchange = $775.00  approx in my case  not cheap damm currency exchange and taxes adds 50% to the price incredible .
> ...


 
 i weighted my WA6 just to compare and its 6 kg. so very comparable weight its heavy .What i like of this amp is the tube combinationi dont have that combination on my other amps that what make's it interesting to me plus the fact that i have plenty of those tubes already. Will see.


----------



## hypnos1

nic rhodes said:


> Do we know the heater current capacity of the transformer for the output valve yet? (the 6AS7G).


 
  
 Hi Nic...and anyone else who may wish to know!...The max power (output) tube heater current is 6.5A (total).
  
 (You might like to see my reply to MIKELAP below, also 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  


mikelap said:


> i weighted my WA6 just to compare and its 6 kg. so very comparable weight its heavy .What i like of this amp is the tube combinationi dont have that combination on my other amps that what make's it interesting to me plus the fact that i have plenty of those tubes already. Will see.


 
  
 Hi M.....AND Mordy, Acapella 11, gibosi et al...
  
 As you're a fan of the C3G also (and a fellow adapter maker) I thought you might like to know what I've been up to....
  
 It's no use - I just couldn't put it off any longer...so against my better judgment, and despite Lukasz's rather lukewarm views on what would result (sorry Lukasz!), I went ahead and tried Glenn's idea of routing g1 and H1 of the C3g to that of triode #1 in the 6SN7, and the plate + cathode and H2 to triode #2 (with usual strapping of the C3G for triode use, of course)...and...IT WORKS!!
  
 It doesn't just work, but there are no nasty sounds anywhere and my first (hesitant!) listening has me very excited indeed. To be on the safe side, I am using as power tube a cheap Chinese 6N5PJ, and with also cheap copper wire in the adapter (instead of my favourite pure, soft-annealed silver) the sound is already extremely promising, with the higher gain and transconductance giving extra output also. Plus this is a used standard C3g, not the better 'S'!
  
 So you can imagine my excitement at the prospect of TWO S's driving BOTH GECs, and with better adapters!!...I'm shaking at the mere thought, lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 However of course, I'm gonna have to run this set-up a while longer yet to make sure all is OK - it's going to take all the patience I can muster methinks!...(Don't mind losing this C3g in the name of research, lol - takes me back to the good ol' days over at the LD Rolling Guide..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Will keep you posted...


----------



## Acapella11

Great effort. Can't wait for your impressions on the 2 x C3GS setup...


----------



## gibosi

Of course, I too look forward to your impressions. And if you find them to be superior to your 7N7s that would be great. However, it is important to keep in mind a couple things:
  
 One, your amp in its current configuration is not optimized to run C3gs. And therefore, they will not sound as good as they could in an amp designed for them....
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/732875/feliks-audio-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype/600#post_11175955
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/732875/feliks-audio-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype/600#post_11176297
  
 And two, there are many, many versions of 6SN7s and variants, and as your current stock is quite modest, I suggest that it is likely there are 6SN7s that will sound better than the C3gs in the Elise....


----------



## Acapella11

Thanks for editing the first post H1! 

Would you know when we get some specifications of the Elise such as power output at 600, 300, 120, 32 ohms for example?


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Of course, I too look forward to your impressions. And if you find them to be superior to your 7N7s that would be great. However, it is important to keep in mind a couple things:
> 
> One, your amp in its current configuration is not optimized to run C3gs. And therefore, they will not sound as good as they could in an amp designed for them....
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi g.
  
 You may well be right...but it sure is going to be fun finding out, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 As for better 6SN7s - I keep looking, but the prices now for such as old black glass tubes are getting more silly by the day. I'm afraid I don't intend spending a great deal more on experimenting with them! Shall keep looking though...


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> nic rhodes said:
> 
> 
> > Do we know the heater current capacity of the transformer for the output valve yet? (the 6AS7G).
> ...


 

 You can try to hook the C3g cathode to both 6SN7 cathodes this will bring the cathode resistor closer
 to what is required for the C3g.  6SN7 aprox 1K ohm C3g 400 to 500 ohm so the two 1K cathode resistors
 in parallel will bring the C3g bias into the ball park.
 Try it you have nothing to loose will not heart anything.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Of course, I too look forward to your impressions. And if you find them to be superior to your 7N7s that would be great. However, it is important to keep in mind a couple things:
> 
> One, your amp in its current configuration is not optimized to run C3gs. And therefore, they will not sound as good as they could in an amp designed for them....
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again g.
  
 With another couple of hours and the second GEC in place I think these amazing tubes are going to rewrite the theory books - and this is just one non-S version with a PsVane!...Watch this space!!


2359glenn said:


> You can try to hook the C3g cathode to both 6SN7 cathodes this will bring the cathode resistor closer
> to what is required for the C3g.  6SN7 aprox 1K ohm C3g 400 to 500 ohm so the two 1K cathode resistors
> in parallel will bring the C3g bias into the ball park.
> Try it you have nothing to loose will not heart anything.


 
  
 Further to what I mentioned above, I have to thank you a million for your advice and suggestions Glenn. The way things are going I truly believe all previous doubts are destined for oblivion! And if the suggestion you have just mentioned improves things even further then you and the C3g belong in a Hall of Fame to beat all Halls of Fame!!
  
 Plus it looks like you might just have saved me a whole load of searching AND money, lol!... Thanks once again...
  
 I go to bed a VERY happy chappie


----------



## JamieMcC

It would be great to see a pic or two of your implementation of this,


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again g.
> 
> With another couple of hours and the second GEC in place I think these amazing tubes are going to rewrite the theory books - and this is just one non-S version with a PsVane!...Watch this space!!


 
  
 From my perspective, the fact that the Elise requires two 6SN7s has always been a disadvantage. The extra cost of procuring two fairly-well matched 6SN7s outweighs any advantages to my mind. However, the fact that you can hook the C3g cathode to both 6SN7 cathodes in each tube to come closer to the proper bias as suggested by Glenn requires that there be two 6SN7 sockets. So it does appear, albeit inadvertently, that the Elise configuration with two 6SN7s may well be the best configuration for you. The only thing better would be to have two extra loctal sockets configured for the C3g.
  
 And you know, with this knowledge well in hand, there is now no reason why you couldn't roll a nice set of 6AK5s!


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, I too look forward to your impressions. And if you find them to be superior to your 7N7s that would be great. However, it is important to keep in mind a couple things:
> ...


 

 Do you have a DVM?
 Can you take a voltage reading from the C3g cathode to ground and a reading from the plate to ground using your adapters?
 Let me know the voltage readings?


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Thanks for editing the first post H1!
> 
> Would you know when we get some specifications of the Elise such as power output at 600, 300, 120, 32 ohms for example?


 
  
 Hi A11....my pleasure!
  
 I think Lukasz is still putting together a spec sheet, but I shall ask him if he's including these figures...
  


jamiemcc said:


> It would be great to see a pic or two of your implementation of this,


 
  
 Hi JMcC.
  
 Here's one pic anyway for starters...just a basic one I'm afraid, but now I know that it works (famously!!) I'll post some more in due course!
  

  
  


gibosi said:


> From my perspective, the fact that the Elise requires two 6SN7s has always been a disadvantage. The extra cost of procuring two fairly-well matched 6SN7s outweighs any advantages to my mind. However, the fact that you can hook the C3g cathode to both 6SN7 cathodes in each tube to come closer to the proper bias as suggested by Glenn requires that there be two 6SN7 sockets. So it does appear, albeit inadvertently, that the Elise configuration with two 6SN7s may well be the best configuration for you. The only thing better would be to have two extra loctal sockets configured for the C3g.
> 
> And you know, with this knowledge well in hand, there is now no reason why you couldn't roll a nice set of 6AK5s!


 
  
 Hi g.
  
 Not such a disadvantage as even modest 6SN7s (which I have found don't actually need to be particularly well-matched) produce excellent results in this amp...in fact I would advise people NOT to spend large amounts on them but put the money towards better headphones/source etc.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Everything sure is looking good for use of the C3g...there is _definite_ improvement even with just one in place, so I'm convinced two (and 'S's) are going to be very exciting  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. All I need now is TIME!!...
  
 6AK5s?...now _there's_ a blast from the past, lol!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Acapella11

> Here's one pic anyway for starters...just a basic one I'm afraid, but now I know that it works (famously!!) I'll post some more in due course!
> 
> 
> Everything sure is looking good for use of the C3g...there is _definite_ improvement even with just one in place, so I'm convinced two (and 'S's) are going to be very exciting
> ...


 
  
 Looks like we need at least one new custom adapter! Maybe we should aim for commercial support as it has been done before... lol.


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi g.
> 
> Not such a disadvantage as even modest 6SN7s (which I have found don't actually need to be particularly well-matched) produce excellent results in this amp...in fact I would advise people NOT to spend large amounts on them but put the money towards better headphones/source etc.
> 
> ...


 
  
 But you seem to be saying that the C3gs are a "_definite_ improvement" over your modest 6SN7s. Yes? And therefore, it is certainly possible that top-tier 6SN7s might also be a definite improvement. In fact, as the Elise has been carefully and deliberately designed for 6SN7s, they just might sound better than the C3gs.
  
 And I would agree that pairs do not need to be particularly well-matched, but they do need to be _fairly_ well-matched. They should have been manufactured in the same factory at about the same time and have the same construction. Further, they should measure somewhat close. That is, it would not do if one is brand new and the other is close to the end of its life.
  
 So again, if one wants top-tier 6SN7s, purchasing two that match up fairly well can be quite costly. How about a pair of Tung-Sol BGRP 6SNGTs? Or a pair of Sylvania 6SN7Ws?. But of course, this only is my opinion. YMMV.


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Looks like we need at least one new custom adapter! Maybe we should aim for commercial support as it has been done before... lol.


 
  
 "You might well say that"....as Francis Urquart ('House of Cards') might have said..."I couldn't possibly comment"...Oh yes I can! - Obviously as yet it needs more time and assessment, but it would certainly appear that way at the moment...have yet to own up to Lukasz what I've been up to with the new baby! I hope I don't get a telling off, lol!!...(I shall blame Glenn! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...even though I am forever in his debt 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  
 So time will tell...


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> But you seem to be saying that the C3gs are a "_definite_ improvement" over your modest 6SN7s. Yes? And therefore, it is certainly possible that top-tier 6SN7s might also be a definite improvement. In fact, as the Elise has been carefully and deliberately designed for 6SN7s, they just might sound better than the C3gs.
> 
> And I would agree that pairs do not need to be particularly well-matched, but they do need to be _fairly_ well-matched. They should have been manufactured in the same factory at about the same time and have the same construction. Further, they should measure somewhat close. That is, it would not do if one is brand new and the other is close to the end of its life.
> 
> So again, if one wants top-tier 6SN7s, purchasing two that match up fairly well can be quite costly. How about a pair of Tung-Sol BGRP 6SNGTs? Or a pair of Sylvania 6SN7Ws?. But of course, this only is my opinion. YMMV.


 
  
 Hi again g.
  
 Yes indeed, this is the $64,000 question. I think in the end it comes down to what tubes one already possesses, and what deals one can find...I think a nice pair of NOS C3GSs is probably going to be a good bit cheaper than NOS T-S BGRPs!
  
 And Glenn's statement some while ago that he rates the C3g above any 6SN7 should balance out the fact of not being _specifically_ configured for them?...(That's what I'm telling myself, anyway!!)....
  
 Ah well, time will tell...but one thing's for certain - I shall NOT be splashing out on what I now consider to be vastly over-priced "top-tier" 6SN7s, lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Wish me luck!!...


----------



## Nic Rhodes

hypnos1 said:


> ....as Francis Urquart ('House of Cards') might have said..."I couldn't possibly comment"...


 
  
 Class. Pure class that series.
  
 Re the C3g, would be interested if anyone has used that in the Woo 5 with an adapter. Great looking amp but after 20+ years playing with amp design / building myself, I have never found a way to get a 6SN7GT to drive a 300B properly.....


----------



## mordy

Hi hypnos 1,
  
 Exciting news about the C3g tubes!
  
 When I asked Lukasz about using the C3g tubes, he answered that they are not compatible with the Elise. However, he could reconfigure the Elise for C3g tubes with loctal sockets for an extra $60, but then it would not be compatible with other tubes.
  
 Perhaps you could ask Lukasz if there is a way to combine C3g and 6SN7 usage based on the information from Glenn? After all, the Elise amp is perhaps unique in that the forum had some input into the design. The more tube rolling options there are, the more appeal the amp should have to prospective buyers....


----------



## 2359glenn

nic rhodes said:


> hypnos1 said:
> 
> 
> > ....as Francis Urquart ('House of Cards') might have said..."I couldn't possibly comment"...
> ...


 

 You are right a 6SN7 cannot drive the miller capacitance of a 300B properly. All the manufactures that use them
 that is what people want and they give it to them. SQ does not matter
 This hobby has little to do with SQ more to do with looks and tube glow and bragging rights.  Look at these perforated
 plate tubes that are being sold as mesh plate at high prices they are terrible tubes. Just made so people can see the
 filament glow. What does this have to do with sound.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi hypnos 1,
> 
> Exciting news about the C3g tubes!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 Your posting is well timed - I was going to leave this posting 'til tomorrow but I just couldn't wait...
  
 I have done as Glenn suggested and connected the cathode to triode #1 also, plus popped in my C3gS and with Mike Oldfield's 'Elements' filling my head once again I am almost lost for words. This amp just keeps confounding me more each day...I think Lukasz is going to be equally confounded by what I'm finding. Already, with the improbable pairing of this tube and a PsVane CV181 TII the previously excellent sound is up yet another notch...no, TWO at least! How on Earth this amp is managing to do it is beyond me...I knew from the moment I first experimented with this tube on our LD Rolling Thread that this is one amazing tube, but now I know it has qualities and abilities that are pure magic - literally! And the Elise obviously CAN handle this marvel much better than thought, without the need for exclusive configuration.
 Obviously it needs a while longer yet to make sure nothing untoward is happening, but so far there isn't the faintest hint of a problem...fingers crossed!!
 To give some idea of what I mean, by now (midnight) I'm usually struggling to stay awake but my eyes are still WIDE open, lol!...what TWO C3gSs are going to deliver I can hardly imagine (another weekend gone making adapters...my good lady is NOT going to be amused!).
  
 Ah well, better go keep her company I suppose. More updates tomorrow...


----------



## Acapella11

Yes! Good job H1. Question is, whether two C3GS would actually sound better considering the better impedance match with one C3G to two 6SN7...
 ...and then another question arises: Would it actually make sense to dedicate Elise to the C3G, right from the start...?


----------



## 2359glenn

mordy said:


> Hi hypnos 1,
> 
> Exciting news about the C3g tubes!
> 
> ...


 

 I am not in the business of telling company's how to better there amps. It should be up to them to figure it out.
 Perhaps I already gave Hypnos1 to much information about using the C3g. There is more but I will keep it to myself.
 I was just trying to help you guys to get the best sound with what you have.


----------



## Rossliew

hypnos1 said:


> Hi mordy.
> 
> Your posting is well timed - I was going to leave this posting 'til tomorrow but I just couldn't wait...
> 
> ...


 
 HI H,
  
 For future Elise owners, it might make some (business?) sense for you to build more C3G adapters and sell them to interested (potential) Elise owners...like myself 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I have a pair of C3GS which i have not had the opportunity to roll into the LD Mk III due to a lack of adapter. But now it looks like i should just start by getting the adapter for the LD first...


----------



## 2359glenn

acapella11 said:


> Yes! Good job H1. Question is, whether two C3GS would actually sound better considering the better impedance match with one C3G to two 6SN7...
> ...and then another question arises: Would it actually make sense to dedicate Elise to the C3G, right from the start...?


 

 A manufacture has to use tubes that are in current production.


----------



## Rossliew

2359glenn said:


> A manufacture has to use tubes that are in current production.


 
 Or perhaps out of production or NOS tubes which the manufacturer has thousands in stock....just my 2 cents


----------



## Acapella11

Just read a few posts in audio4sale.net, where someone build a DIY amp with C3O and 300B tubes. When he was optimising his C3O tubes, he had the following findings:
  
_I have made changes to the schematics and operating points for the *C3o* tubes :-
i. Ia to 18ma
 ii. regulated the 150V to g2 with obbligato film caps._
_Having regulated grid supply further improved the clarity and soundstage. Its like peering through a cleaned window. If you have a pentode driver, seriously consider regulating the g2 supply!_
  
   





> Quote:
> 
> 
> 2359glenn said:
> ...


 


>


  
 From a manufacturer's point of view, it totally makes sense that the tubes are in production, but if you consider the hi-fi enthusiastic sound lover... maybe a very long life out of production tube, which is still available, could be just the thing for the best possible SQ at a moderate price... Just thinking loud


----------



## Lorspeaker

and i tot buying an amp is easy....hmmmm....will need to wait this out.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> I am not in the business of telling company's how to better there amps. It should be up to them to figure it out.
> Perhaps I already gave Hypnos1 to much information about using the C3g. There is more but I will keep it to myself.
> I was just trying to help you guys to get the best sound with what you have.


 

 And it is MUCH appreciated Glenn....generosity of spirit is a rare - and welcoming - quality in this age of ours...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> and i tot buying an amp is easy....hmmmm....will need to wait this out.


 
  
 "He who hesitates"??....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> lorspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > and i tot buying an amp is easy....hmmmm....will need to wait this out.
> ...


 
 Make's a wiser decision down the road


----------



## Acapella11

The Elise will very likely, as it stands from H1's findings, be quite a step up from the LD MKIVSE plus it is a purpose build amp for tubes known to produce high end sound.
 So, my impression is that this will be a bargain for the money. Now the question is just the preference in terms of driver tubes with the known options/limitations for tube rolling.


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Make's a wiser decision down the road


 
  
 Hey *M*...where's the pioneering *MIKELAP* I know from adapter-making etc. land - you goin' soft on me, my man?!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  


acapella11 said:


> The Elise will very likely, as it stands from H1's findings, be quite a step up from the LD MKIVSE plus it is a purpose build amp for tubes known to produce high end sound.
> So, my impression is that this will be a bargain for the money. Now the question is just the preference in terms of driver tubes with the known options/limitations for tube rolling.


 
  
 If my experiments with the C3g prove trouble-free (which I trust _should_ be the case - I don't mind being the guinea pig...again!), the Elise will surely turn out to be the bargain of the CENTURY lol!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....not forgetting the vast array of 6SN7s of course! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> If my experiments with the C3g prove trouble-free (which I trust _should_ be the case - I don't mind being the guinea pig...again!), the Elise will surely turn out to be the bargain of the CENTURY lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Would you, however consider favouring a C3G optimized version over the 6Sn7 one?


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Would you, however consider favouring a C3G optimized version over the 6Sn7 one?


 
  
 Hi A11.
  
 Although I still have only 1 C3g(S) in place, I personally - given my own particular set-up with Beyer T1s - would probably favour the C3G optimized one. But then again I don't have "top tier" 6SN7s to compare. Others of course may well prefer a different type of sound - more 'colored'/'tubey'/bass-heavy etc. if you will -  which can be tailored using different 6SN7s, so this is a difficult one to call in any general kind of way.
 I myself prefer a much more 'linear' sound...akin to SS, if you like, but with that special added quality that comes from (good) tubes. And the C3g delivers this to perfection IMHO - when partnered with good power/output tubes...not to mention source, headphones, amp of course!
  
 I also think this tube does wonders for the HD650s, which I'm afraid can sometimes be less-than-exciting (IMO) in the 'sparkle' arena, especially with warm/dark tubes and/or amp. This tube (as I am getting anyway) is also eliciting an even more neutral signature from the Elise, which again I much prefer.
  
 So it's 'horses for courses' as to choice...isn't it always?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## JamieMcC

Re the C3g I am wondering if this is something suitable to attempt with my OTL Crack with the single input tube? I have long left behind 12au7 input tube first in favour of the e80cc and now use the 6sn7 be nice to tweak things up a little more.
  
 I found a little pcb that might fit the bill to experiment with some flying lead take offs from the nine pin socket.
  
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200958134036?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## mordy

Hi JamieMcC,
  
 I have this breadboard on the picture. It is easy enough to use. Each of the leads is clearly numbered and has two posts to connect wires to - all you need is a small flat blade screwdriver.
  
 However, this breadboard has facilities to insert resistors in the signal path. For our purposes you need to solder in wires into the spaces for the resistors. One wire is enough for both connecting blocks.
  
 Then you need a wiring diagram and the correct adapters for your amp. I have a Little Dot MKIII amp, and use one dual triode on the breadboard, connected to two 7pin adapters, for drivers.
  
  Don't know what you need for the Crack.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## gibosi

jamiemcc said:


> Re the C3g I am wondering if this is something suitable to attempt with my OTL Crack with the single input tube? I have long left behind 12au7 input tube first in favour of the e80cc and now use the 6sn7 be nice to tweak things up a little more.
> 
> I found a little pcb that might fit the bill to experiment with some flying lead take offs from the nine pin socket.
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200958134036?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 
  
 First, you will need a pair of these breadboard loctal sockets, one for each C3g. And yes, these will make it easy to triode-strap these pentodes. 
  
 C3g
 Pin
  
 1&8   -  H 
 2    -  G3
 3    -  P
 4    -  G2
 5    -  K
 6    -  G1
 7    -  K
  
 Strap pins 2 and 7 (cathode to grid3, the suppressor grid)
 Strap pins 3 and 4 (plate to grid2, the screen grid)
 Pins 5 and 7 are strapped inside the tube, so connect only one of these pins (cathode) to your 12AU7 Socket.
  
 Route the wires connecting the plate, control grid (G1) and cathode to the appropriate 12AU7 socket pins. That is, connect one pentode to one triode section - pins 1 (plate), 2 (grid) and 3 (cathode), and the other to the other triode section - pins 6 (plate), 7 (grid) and 8 (cathode).
  
 This leaves the heaters in both tubes to be connected to pins 4/5 (which are tied together in the Crack socket) and 9. That is, connect the heaters in parallel, I believe, tying pin1 of both pentodes to pins 4/5 in the Crack and tying pin 8 of the pentodes to pin 9. (I am pretty it should be parallel and not in series! lol.)
  
 Each C3g draws .37A, so you will need to verify that the Crack transformer can provide perhaps .85A so there is a small cushion above the .74A these will draw.
  
 OK... I think I have this right... But if anyone sees anything wrong, please correct me. 
  
 Edit: And if the Crack's transformer cannot provide enough current, it is simple matter to fashion a crude but serviceable external DC heater power supply using a laptop power supply and a step-down voltage regulator.


----------



## Acapella11

Considering Glenn's precious comment that the C3G requires lower resistence than the 6SN7, which is why it is difficult to adapt the C3G to the 6SN7 via adapter. Wouldn't it make it more sense to buy the C3G version and use a nice pair of adapters fir the 6SN7s?


----------



## JamieMcC

gibosi said:


> First, you will need a pair of these breadboard loctal sockets, one for each C3g. And yes, these will make it easy to triode-strap these pentodes.
> 
> C3g
> Pin
> ...


 
  
 Thanks gibosi that is just superbly helpful and very generous of you to take the time to respond with such a detailed post .
  
 I was thinking about mounting the pcb's on a small separate board with fly leads taken to 9 pin socket saver as this would make life simpler from a hook up perspective.  Maybe even mount the socket saver to the underside of the board.


----------



## 2359glenn

acapella11 said:


> Considering Glenn's precious comment that the C3G requires lower resistence than the 6SN7, which is why it is difficult to adapt the C3G to the 6SN7 via adapter. Wouldn't it make it more useful to buy the C3G version and use a nice pair of adapters fir the 6SN7s?


 

 Can't be done the 8 pins in a 6SN7 are used for two triodes or two tubes in one.
 All 8 pins are used for one tube with the C3g.
 And good luck in finding a loctal tube base.


----------



## 2359glenn

jamiemcc said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > First, you will need a pair of these breadboard loctal sockets, one for each C3g. And yes, these will make it easy to triode-strap these pentodes.
> ...


 

 This socket is good and has spots that you can put the required grid stopper resistors on all the grids of the C3g.
 I know you guys got away without using them but the C3g easily goes into oscillation and requires stopper resistors.
 It may have been oscillating without you knowing it at high frequency and the sound wouldn't be as good as it could have been. 
 Especially if you are going to use fly leads.


----------



## Acapella11

2359glenn said:


> Can't be done the 8 pins in a 6SN7 are used for two triodes or two tubes in one.
> All 8 pins are used for one tube with the C3g.
> And good luck in finding a loctal tube base.




Seems that it is not as straightforward as I assumed. 

My thoughts were that for C3G operation, the pentode would inside Elise probably be strapped to a triode. Then one 6SN7 could be mounted on an octal breadbord splitting the two triodes up for the two sockets. This is just theoretical of course. For completion, it would still need fitting of the resistor.

Yeah, I will need to check on the availability of that loctal C3G base


----------



## JamieMcC

Thanks for the help, boards and tubes on ordered this morning. I suspect a longish wait for the pcb's to ship from China. Looking forward to attempting this mod as its a bit out of my comfort zone.


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Seems that it is not as straightforward as I assumed.
> 
> My thoughts were that for C3G operation, the pentode would inside Elise probably be strapped to a triode. Then one 6SN7 could be mounted on an octal breadbord splitting the two triodes up for the two sockets. This is just theoretical of course. For completion, it would still need fitting of the resistor.
> 
> Yeah, I will need to check on the availability of that loctal C3G base


 
  
 Hi A11.
  
  I'm afraid Lukasz did say the C3g config option would allow ONLY for this tube...so I don't think what you are proposing is going to be at all feasible 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 As Glenn has mentioned to JMcC and gibosi, it does look like the C3g is not quite as straightforward a tube as we had previously thought in our LD days, and ideally requires these 'grid stopper resistors'. However,  from my limited research this subject itself is far from cut and dried. There seem also to be other variables in one's set-up and external factors that can make all the difference to the degree of necessity - isn't it always the case, lol?!.. So the caveat here must obviously be that perhaps not everyone will be lucky enough to get precisely the same results that I am enjoying at present...
  
 I personally never encountered any problems/noticeable HF oscillation in the LD, but admittedly I have been getting a VERY faint hum from my test C3g - which I have to concentrate hard to actually notice with no music playing, and which often disappears completely (I myself believe this could easily be down to my temporary unsealed far-from-ideal adapter). Whatever, there is absolutely nothing 'extraneous' appearing in the sound (to my ears anyway!) either at low or high levels - which to me is the most important factor anyway, so long as no real damage is being caused. And hey, we've been here before with our Little Dots, n'est-ce pas?!
  
 So I may not be getting the absolute best from this wonderful tube, but as it is obviously *SO* good, even sub-perfection would appear able to deliver outstanding performance...but of course I have a way to go yet, viz 2 C3GSs in DECENT adapters 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> Hi A11.
> 
> Although I still have only 1 C3g(S) in place, I personally - given my own particular set-up with Beyer T1s - would probably favour the C3G optimized one. But then again I don't have "top tier" 6SN7s to compare. Others of course may well prefer a different type of sound - more 'colored'/'tubey'/bass-heavy etc. if you will -  which can be tailored using different 6SN7s, so this is a difficult one to call in any general kind of way.
> I myself prefer a much more 'linear' sound...akin to SS, if you like, but with that special added quality that comes from (good) tubes. And the C3g delivers this to perfection IMHO - when partnered with good power/output tubes...not to mention source, headphones, amp of course!
> ...


 

  
  
 Hi H1,
 Thanks for the impressions. I agree with your favoured signature. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 If this matches perfectly with the T1, then I expect it to match the HD800 also.
  
 Considering the price of top tier 6SN7 tube rolling, going with the C3G optimized version may be the best "bang for the buck", yet very competetivly sounding option. By rolling 6AS7G and 6080 powertubes, one could still adjust the flavour to system changes to a certain degree.


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> acapella11 said:
> 
> 
> > Seems that it is not as straightforward as I assumed.
> ...


 

 The oscillation problem will show up one time and not another. When I build amps I put grid stoppers on all tube grids even the 6AS7s to insure this will not happen.
 It is easy to put some small 1/2 watt 100 ohm resistors inside a adapter so there is no reason to not do it.  I build and sell adapters with resistors in them all the time.
 The hum coming and going could mean when it starts oscillating then it stops unstable in the circuit. 
 .
 100 ohm resistor between pin 3 & 4  plate and G2
 100 ohm resistor between pin 2 & 7  cathode and G3
 100 ohm resistor straight through pin 6 G1 and the octal tube base in place of the wire.
  
 It is worth doing this no one knows when this problem will  act up. it might be fine with one amp and not another or one C3g and the next one will act up.
 I sold a amp to some one in a big city all was fine until he put a 6F8G adapter in the 6SN7 socket and he started picking up a radio station. The grid lead
 was acting as a antenna. Sent the amp back to me and I added grid stoppers on the 6SN7 grids problem solved.
 A learning experience now I put grid stoppers on all grids. Even if the tube is not prone to this problem.  And the C3g is prone to this oscillating problem.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Over the years I have been caught out on this numerous times. It can also take a real toll on sound quality.  For the sake of a simple resistor, I use them just about all of the time now.


----------



## 2359glenn

nic rhodes said:


> Over the years I have been caught out on this numerous times. It can also take a real toll on sound quality.  For the sake of a simple resistor, I use them just about all of the time now.


 

 It can be oscillating at high frequency and you don't know it just makes the sound harsh or not at it's best.
 Or burn up your tweeters if it is a high powered amp.  
 Not worth not doing it on all tubes.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Glenn
  
 have you thought about making one of your adapters for the Elise? I would buy one.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

2359glenn said:


> jamiemcc said:
> 
> 
> > gibosi said:
> ...


 
  I have a CRACK amp and i'am interested in making my own adapter following gibosi's pin connections(Thanks gibosi!),Can you please let me know what type/value of the resistor i will need to complete the adapter.Is it the same Type/Value of the resistor need for the CRACK and Littledot MK III Adapters?THANK YOU! 
  
 Here is my MK III C3g adapter with no Grid stopper resistors.


----------



## 2359glenn

nic rhodes said:


> Glenn
> 
> have you thought about making one of your adapters for the Elise? I would buy one.


 

 Actually I haven't thought about it.  Maybe after these amps are out there really are none to do this fore yet.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

No rush  but I think there would be some interest from those who don't do this stuff or have no time .


----------



## JamieMcC

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I have a CRACK amp and i'am interested in making my own adapter following gibosi's pin connections,Can you please let me know what type/value of the resistor i will need to complete the adapter.THANK YOU!


 

 See Glenn's comments a couple of posts back


----------



## i luvmusic 2

jamiemcc said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a CRACK amp and i'am interested in making my own adapter following gibosi's pin connections,Can you please let me know what type/value of the resistor i will need to complete the adapter.THANK YOU!
> ...


 
 Thanks!


----------



## 2359glenn

nic rhodes said:


> No rush  but I think there would be some interest from those who don't do this stuff or have no time .


 

 They would also work in a Woo WA5 and improve the sound but I am not going there.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Thought they might


----------



## 2359glenn

i luvmusic 2 said:


> jamiemcc said:
> 
> 
> > i luvmusic 2 said:
> ...


 

 100 ohm 1/2 watt carbon composition are best but film resistors will work.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Got it THANK YOU GUYS!
  
 What is the ideal wattage?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Crap i need to stop doing few things at one time i keep on missing the POST.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 THANKS AGAIN!


----------



## 2359glenn

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Got it THANK YOU GUYS!
> 
> What is the ideal wattage?
> 
> Thanks!


 

 1/2 watt or 1 watt if you have the room


----------



## i luvmusic 2

2359glenn said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > Got it THANK YOU GUYS!
> ...


 
 I have plenty of room inside my DIY adapter(no PCB's just wires soldered onto the sockets) so i will be using 1W THANK YOU!


----------



## 2359glenn

i luvmusic 2 said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > i luvmusic 2 said:
> ...


 

 Keep the resistors as close to the C3g socket as possible as short of a lead as you can from the resistor to the socket.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

2359glenn said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > 2359glenn said:
> ...


 
 I will Thanks again!


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Hi H1,
> Thanks for the impressions. I agree with your favoured signature.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes indeed A11, this could well be a really good option - bearing in mind all the provisos I mentioned previously. I'm just a little concerned about the loss of flexibility for some people...and, of course, the Elise has been designed from the ground up for the 6SN7 (which was the original remit!) plus production line organisation, so optimising everything for the C3g properly is going to take a good while I should imagine and would probably mean a long wait for a unit. (Actually I feel rather guilty at possibly having tossed yet another ball into the ring - I can already hear a gnashing of teeth in the Feliks development team, lol!). But then, if it brings another string to the bow I would have thought it perhaps a good move? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. However, let's get realistic here - first steps first!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> The oscillation problem will show up one time and not another. When I build amps I put grid stoppers on all tube grids even the 6AS7s to insure this will not happen.
> It is easy to put some small 1/2 watt 100 ohm resistors inside a adapter so there is no reason to not do it.  I build and sell adapters with resistors in them all the time.
> The hum coming and going could mean when it starts oscillating then it stops unstable in the circuit.
> .
> ...


 
  
  


nic rhodes said:


> Over the years I have been caught out on this numerous times. It can also take a real toll on sound quality.  For the sake of a simple resistor, I use them just about all of the time now.


 
  
 Hi Glenn and Nic.
  
 Many thanks for the advice and info.
  
 As I have a pathological hatred of adding 'extras' to wiring (especially signal lines), is it then 100% certain that these resistors will take NOTHING away from a tube's performance?
  
 Would appreciate your comments...
  
 Cheers


----------



## hypnos1

Actually folks, I've now really got the bit between my teeth and I'm gonna have to make adapters WITH resistors (when I can get them!) AND without....what have I started here?....I can see divorce looming, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(I'm afraid I have come to be really happy only with my own empirical testing, no matter the size of chasm between me and far more knowledgeable people) ...mind you, only when I'm not likely to kill myself that is!...but boy, am I grateful for any and all advice and assistance along the way!!
  
 So the quest begins...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Acapella11

Hi H1, Sounds like a little step out of the comfort zone and good fun. Can't wait hearing back from you about the performance boost


----------



## 2359glenn

hypnos1 said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > The oscillation problem will show up one time and not another. When I build amps I put grid stoppers on all tube grids even the 6AS7s to insure this will not happen.
> ...


 

 These resistors will not degrade the sound only have improvements and stop problems.
  
 Use a carbon composition resistor if you can find some.  You can get them from Farnell in Europe.
 Next best is carbon film should be easy to find and are the smallest.
 Try to stay away from metal film resistors they don't sound that good.


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> These resistors will not degrade the sound only have improvements and stop problems.
> 
> Use a carbon composition resistor if you can find some.  You can get them from Farnell in Europe.
> Next best is carbon film should be easy to find and are the smallest.
> Try to stay away from metal film resistors they don't sound that good.


 
  
 Many thanks Glenn... will get on it straight away!
  
 Cheers!
  
 CJ


----------



## Nic Rhodes

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Glenn and Nic.
> 
> Many thanks for the advice and info.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I used to think like that and got some amps down to 1 resistor and 1 capacitor per channel but soon learned that less was not necessarily better. Although I am a minimalist at heart, grid stopper resistors are just a common sense idea that degrade little or none when not needed and help shed loads when needed. They cost cents and can deliver big time. I have no reservation about using them. I do have lot's of reservations about not using them, using tubes in wrong place on their curves, not understanding voltages etc which all come with tube rolling we have done on the LDs.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

The C3g are working good with the CRACK lacking in bass but very detailed nice pairing with the HD650.THANKS GUYS!


----------



## JamieMcC

i luvmusic 2 said:


> The C3g are working good with the CRACK lacking in bass but very detailed nice pairing with the HD650.THANKS GUYS!


 

 I have been wondering about C3G's extra gain its significantly more than the 12au7 have you noticed it having much of a effect or is the gain reduce once the C3G has been converted to Triode operation sorry if its a dumb question?


----------



## gibosi

jamiemcc said:


> I have been wondering about C3G's extra gain its significantly more than the 12au7 have you noticed it having much of a effect or is the gain reduce once the C3G has been converted to Triode operation sorry if its a dumb question?


 
  
 It is my understanding that in triode mode, the C3g has a gain of about 40, which is significantly higher than the 12AU7, with a gain of about 20. I will defer to others who understand this better than I do, but I think it is safe to say that the C3g will likely not sound its best in a Crack, but still, it might sound very good.
  
 For example, based on the experience of those of us with LDs, we have been using C3gs, 6SN7s and 6DJ8s with very good results. While the LD is designed to use 7-pin triode-strapped pentodes, which suggests that perhaps the C3g is a pretty good fit, 6SN7s and 6DJ8s also sound very good.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

jamiemcc said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > The C3g are working good with the CRACK lacking in bass but very detailed nice pairing with the HD650.THANKS GUYS!
> ...


 
 I don't hear much of a difference a little less in bass other than that it's a nice sounding tube,IMO the C3g works better with the LD MK III.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

gibosi said:


> jamiemcc said:
> 
> 
> > I have been wondering about C3G's extra gain its significantly more than the 12au7 have you noticed it having much of a effect or is the gain reduce once the C3G has been converted to Triode operation sorry if its a dumb question?
> ...


 
 Yes you are right i prefer the C3g on my MK III than on the CRACK.


----------



## gibosi

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Yes you are right i prefer the C3g on my MK III than on the CRACK.


 
  
  Just a suggestion.. but you might want to try rolling through your power tubes. It may well be that power tubes with the best synergy with your 12AU7s might not be the best with C3gs....


----------



## hypnos1

Just a quickie...
  
 Have had confirmation that my use of the C3g is not going to cause any problems (phew!), but unfortunately a C3g Elise option is going to have to wait until the original remit is well under way and established - which only makes sense alas!
  
  


nic rhodes said:


> I used to think like that and got some amps down to 1 resistor and 1 capacitor per channel but soon learned that less was not necessarily better. Although I am a minimalist at heart, grid stopper resistors are just a common sense idea that degrade little or none when not needed and help shed loads when needed. They cost cents and can deliver big time. I have no reservation about using them. I do have lot's of reservations about not using them, using tubes in wrong place on their curves, not understanding voltages etc which all come with tube rolling we have done on the LDs.


 
  
 Thanks Nic...have this very day ordered some resistors. But I must admit I am being being very fortunate at the moment (again!)...even the very faint hint of hum is now totally absent, and there isn't the slightest trace of any kind of aberrant sound. So I shall still be trying WITH and WITHOUT resistors - I'm a glutton for punishment, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Better get back to the good lady...another busy adapter-making day tomorrow!!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

IMO the resistor have affect the  sound i have 2 adapters for the C3g's one with a resistors and the other don't have they sound different from each other using my MK III i will try to changed the resistor to see if the sound will improved.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

gibosi said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes you are right i prefer the C3g on my MK III than on the CRACK.
> ...


 
 I will try,only thing is i don't have much tubes to choose from.THANKS!


----------



## 2359glenn

i luvmusic 2 said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > jamiemcc said:
> ...


 

 The crack must have a to high cathode resistor and plate resistor they will have to be lowered for the C3g to work properly.


----------



## 2359glenn

i luvmusic 2 said:


> IMO the resistor have affect the  sound i have 2 adapters for the C3g's one with a resistors and the other don't have they sound different from each other using my MK III i will try to changed the resistor to see if the sound will improved.


 

 What value resistors did you use??


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I changed the power tube to Chatham 6080 and the changed in bass is noticeable the C3g is still detailed,I wonder how  the 5998 will pair with the C3g on the crack.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

2359glenn said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > IMO the resistor have affect the  sound i have 2 adapters for the C3g's one with a resistors and the other don't have they sound different from each other using my MK III i will try to changed the resistor to see if the sound will improved.
> ...


 
  I used one 100R 1W and two are 100R 1/2W (PRP metal Film) per socket like what you said before metal film are not that good sounding.I've used what i have just to see how the C3g's will sound in my CRACK i will try replacing the resistors some time next week.Thanks!
  The C3g is still good sounding tube for the Crack.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Even the C3g's are not sounding at their best on the CRACK i still prefer the C3g's over 6SN7's.
  
 Sorry!Hypnos1 for hacking your Thread.


----------



## atistatic

It's just to me ? or the features is like to Little dot MK9.


----------



## gibosi

atistatic said:


> It's just to me ? or the features is like to Little dot MK9.


 
  
 The MK9 uses one *6SL7*, while the Elise uses two *6SN7*. So perhaps somewhat similar, but not the same.


----------



## mordy

Hi Nic,
  
 Any impressions you can share of the Little Dot Mk9?


----------



## Nic Rhodes

yes, small hick up in that it was a 220v unit seller forgot to mention but I have that sorted on a variac now. Amp is certainly a level above the 3 and 4 and is making some of the best sounds I have ever heard out of an AKG 240DF. The chinese 6SL7GT was rubbish and I have a round plate Sylvania VT 229 (war years) in there atm. That made a great difference. 1945 6SU7GTY Tung Sol next. Currently all on the stock french 6080wa. It is a very even handed amp and i wonder whether it really is just a low power Mk6. Shaping up well as an amp. No hum, whisper quiet.


----------



## hypnos1

nic rhodes said:


> yes, small hick up in that it was a 220v unit seller forgot to mention but I have that sorted on a variac now. Amp is certainly a level above the 3 and 4 and is making some of the best sounds I have ever heard out of an AKG 240DF. The chinese 6SL7GT was rubbish and I have a round plate Sylvania VT 229 (war years) in there atm. That made a great difference. 1945 6SU7GTY Tung Sol next. Currently all on the stock french 6080wa. It is a very even handed amp and i wonder whether it really is just a low power Mk6. Shaping up well as an amp. No hum, whisper quiet.


 
  
 Hi Nic.
  
 It's gonna be real interesting to see how it compares to the Elise, lol!...Do you have some really nice 6SN7s?...


----------



## hypnos1

Further to the confirmation that the Feliks guys are rightly concentrating on getting the original remit established before being able to offer any kind of C3g adaptation, I will be cutting back my postings on this tube! It's a tragedy that there isn't a feasible/reliable/varied range of C3g available for an amp maker (OR DIYer!) - if it had been, I would have made that my original suggestion to Lukasz!
  
 But the World is full of 'ifs', as we all know...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 However, these guys have managed to design and deliver a unit that is still of an extremely high order indeed...and that's with average to good 6SN7s and 6AS7Gs (or equiv.). Those who have, or are lucky enough to find _reasonably_ priced 'higher tier' tubes, will undoubtedly be even more surprised and pleased with the performance of this amp.
  
 I should be getting the 6080 extender/adapters soon now, so it's going to be very interesting to see how my Sylvanias compare to the 6N13Ss, and especially my Chatham 6AS7Gs and GECs...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Out of respect to Lukasz and the Feliks team (not that they have minded - surprisingly!), if anyone wants more info re my foray into C3g land just PM me and I'll be happy to oblige...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 ps.  Have got an old National Union black glass 6SN7 on the way...should be very interesting...


----------



## atistatic

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Nic.
> 
> It's gonna be real interesting to see how it compares to the Elise, lol!...Do you have some really nice 6SN7s?...


 
 i do have ... but my amp is Little dot MK VI+ that i think is the same amp MK9 but is dual separate mono, use 2 6as7g family and a 6sn7G or 6sl7G driver amp for each channel, the Sophia electric 6sn7 GTA work really well.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Nic.
> 
> It's gonna be real interesting to see how it compares to the Elise, lol!...Do you have some really nice 6SN7s?...


 
  
 I don't have any of the German ceramic 6SN7GTs and can't remember on the metal based Sylvanias but have most of the rest  Probably about 320 and then 7N7s and 6F8s on top. Lot's of the older triodes as well that might work with adapter / PSUs. But if you mean Tung Sol, GEC, Mullard variant, Reds etc no problem there .


----------



## Nic Rhodes

The 6SU7GTY Tung Sol is good in the LD Mk9 
  
 Does anyone have any experience of the Feliks Audio Espressivo tube headphone amplifier? I wondered how it compared with the Valhalla?


----------



## rosgr63

nic rhodes said:


> I don't have any of the German ceramic 6SN7GTs and can't remember on the metal based Sylvanias but have most of the rest  Probably about 320 and then 7N7s and 6F8s on top. Lot's of the older triodes as well that might work with adapter / PSUs. But if you mean Tung Sol, GEC, Mullard variant, Reds etc no problem there .


 

 The RFT's match the AVVT's well.


----------



## hypnos1

nic rhodes said:


> I don't have any of the German ceramic 6SN7GTs and can't remember on the metal based Sylvanias but have most of the rest  Probably about 320 and then 7N7s and 6F8s on top. Lot's of the older triodes as well that might work with adapter / PSUs. But if you mean Tung Sol, GEC, Mullard variant, Reds etc no problem there .


 
  
 Ye Gods Nic...looks like YOU'RE the one who should have taken on this project with the Feliks guys...if (when) you do get the Elise, I will happily hand over stewardship of this thread to you, mon ami!
 You have obviously been MORTALLY bitten by the amp/rolling/modification bug...do you have _any _time for anything else, lol? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Cheers!
  
 ps. What are your views on the tall-bottle 'chrome dome' 7N7s and the short-bottle ones?...


----------



## Nic Rhodes

hypnos1 said:


> Ye Gods Nic...looks like YOU'RE the one who should have taken on this project with the Feliks guys...if (when) you do get the Elise, I will happily hand over stewardship of this thread to you, mon ami!
> You have obviously been MORTALLY bitten by the amp/rolling/modification bug...do you have _any _time for anything else, lol?
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have just been doing this longer than some here, I started when I was an embryo...
  
 Re 7N7s, older better but I don't find the quality range that many other tubes have or others have writen about. Even 1970s are good. In fact the 7N7 was made much longer than people realise. Have you found 7N7's 'premium' brother yet?  Sometimes that is better again and worth trying.
  
 There are some other good loctals aswell. 6C5 for 6V6GT, 7A4 for 6J6 / 6SF5, 7F8 for 6N7 / 2C51, 7F7 for 6SL7GT (or top cap octal 6C8G like 6F8G is to 6SN7GT and soon to go into Mk9). Sylvania seems to have made most Loctals but some nice other makes like National Union or Cossor here.
  
 The Elise is all your thread but I do plan to buy one when production is stable


----------



## 2359glenn

nic rhodes said:


> hypnos1 said:
> 
> 
> > Ye Gods Nic...looks like YOU'RE the one who should have taken on this project with the Feliks guys...if (when) you do get the Elise, I will happily hand over stewardship of this thread to you, mon ami!
> ...


 
 Not longer then everyone here built my 1st 1 tube radio when I was in 2nd grade 50 years ago.


----------



## atistatic

2359glenn said:


> Not longer then everyone here built my 1st 1 tube radio when I was in 2nd grade 50 years ago.


 
 how many cost a 6as7g tube then? im asking sincerely ... cuz not even exist vacuum tube when i did born, im 24.


----------



## gibosi

atistatic said:


> how many cost a 6as7g tube then? im asking sincerely ... cuz not even exist vacuum tube when i did born, im 24.


 
  
 From a few US dollars to hundreds of US dollars for one tube. It all depends on which company manufactured them and when:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=6asn7&LH_PrefLoc=2&_from=R40&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR10.TRC1.A0.H0.X6as7&_nkw=6as7&_sacat=0


----------



## mordy

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOR-SALE-4-NIB-NOS-PINNACLE-P1230-6080-6AS7-A1824-Double-triodes-/361197336020?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541909f5d4
  
 Could these be GEC tubes?


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOR-SALE-4-NIB-NOS-PINNACLE-P1230-6080-6AS7-A1824-Double-triodes-/361197336020?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541909f5d4
> 
> Could these be GEC tubes?


 
  
 Looking at the third picture, I am pretty sure I see flying saucers.


----------



## JamieMcC

mordy said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOR-SALE-4-NIB-NOS-PINNACLE-P1230-6080-6AS7-A1824-Double-triodes-/361197336020?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541909f5d4
> 
> Could these be GEC tubes?


 

 It looks like a re branded Svetlana 6as7g to me


----------



## Nic Rhodes

yes definately not British made, look to USSR. These were often used by UK military having A and CV numbers.


----------



## atistatic

gibosi said:


> From a few US dollars to hundreds of US dollars for one tube. It all depends on which company manufactured them and when:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=6asn7&LH_PrefLoc=2&_from=R40&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR10.TRC1.A0.H0.X6as7&_nkw=6as7&_sacat=0


 
 lol i asked how many cost the tube 50 years ago, not today.


----------



## 2359glenn

atistatic said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > Not longer then everyone here built my 1st 1 tube radio when I was in 2nd grade 50 years ago.
> ...


 

 Most were under $5 they started getting a little expensive at the end of the tube era in the mid 70s
 The most I spent on a tube was a 117L7 it cost $7 allot of money for a child making money mowing lawns for $2


----------



## atistatic

2359glenn said:


> Most were under $5 they started getting a little expensive at the end of the tube era in the mid 70s
> The most I spent on a tube was a 117L7 it cost $7 allot of money for a child making money mowing lawns for $2


 
 nice era ...


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOR-SALE-4-NIB-NOS-PINNACLE-P1230-6080-6AS7-A1824-Double-triodes-/361197336020?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item541909f5d4
> 
> Could these be GEC tubes?


 
 These are russian 6H13C     1987                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
                                                              
 These below are 6H5C     1959


----------



## hypnos1

GOOD NEWS for the 6SN7 v  C3g...in the Feliks creation at least!
  
 Have just received an old National Union (Admiral branded) black glass 6SN7GT, and this tube is showing very good promise on first listening compared to the incomparable C3gS.... Partnered with one of the latter it is almost holding its own, which is pretty good going given its lower output. Yet another instance of this amp being extremely forgiving regarding different drivers - the only discrepancy of this pairing being said difference in volume output (the C3gS is quite phenomenal in this respect).
  
 And although these kinds of tube can command very high prices, I was able to find this used one on ebay for $15 + shipping...NICE...So it can be done...with PATIENCE!... So, given this amp's ability to 'mix and match', one can look for singles of these older (and better?) tubes if a pair is not available or at a ridiculous price.
  
 Once again this shows the relatively easy 'upscaleability' of the Elise to even greater heights, without having to spend a great deal of money. This amp just keeps on surprising me by the day, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 Anyway, a teaser pic for y'all...
  

  
 From someone _still_ on cloud nine!....


----------



## JohnBal

Hi. I have been noticing this amp and I am wondering how is it possible to mix the 6sn7 and the c3g tubes. Is there not 1 6sn7 per channel? Or is this amp wired differently. Curious...


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> GOOD NEWS for the 6SN7 v  C3g...in the Feliks creation at least!
> 
> Have just received an old National Union (Admiral branded) black glass 6SN7GT, and this tube is showing very good promise on first listening compared to the incomparable C3gS.... Partnered with one of the latter it is almost holding its own, which is pretty good going given its lower output. Yet another instance of this amp being extremely forgiving regarding different drivers - the only discrepancy of this pairing being said difference in volume output (the C3gS is quite phenomenal in this respect).
> 
> ...


 
 What is a comfortable listening volume level with the amp and 6sn7 tubes without being to loud with your 600 ohms T-1


----------



## hypnos1

johnbal said:


> Hi. I have been noticing this amp and I am wondering how is it possible to mix the 6sn7 and the c3g tubes. Is there not 1 6sn7 per channel? Or is this amp wired differently. Curious...


 
  
  
 Hi JB.
  
 The amp is indeed configured for 1 6SN7 per channel...but I've been cheating and have adapted the C3g(S) pentode to work (courtesy of 2359 glenn) by connecting grid 1 and H1 of the C3g to those of 6SN7 triode#1 and K+a+H2 of the C3g to those of triode#2 (the C3g triode strapped, of course). Although not really configured for use of the C3g I have found it works - extremely well!
 I need to test for a good while longer yet, though, to be sure all is 100% OK (Lukasz did however say it should be safe...).
 ps. Connected K to triode#1 also...


mikelap said:


> What is a comfortable listening volume level with the amp and 6sn7 tubes without being to loud with your 600 ohms T-1


 
  
 Hi M.
  
 For most of my CD tracks it ranges between points 6 and 8 of 20...with the C3gSs between 4 and 6...


----------



## Mechans1

I just wanted to point out that NU black glass tubes were easier to find 6-7 years ago.  The real prize according Len  (a legendary   6SN7 guy) was the NU grey glass.  I was able to find a pair of these rare tubes  by  collecting 1 tube at a time and by buying  lots just for a couple of interesting or rare tubes. I may even have ended up with a couple of NU grey glass. PM about the NU  black glass I have to dig them out to see my inventory so to speak.


----------



## JamieMcC

I'm a bit of a fan of the NU black glass 6sn7 as well. They are sweet sounding tubes and glorious when paired with the GEC.


----------



## 2359glenn

jamiemcc said:


> I'm a bit of a fan of the NU black glass 6sn7 as well. They are sweet sounding tubes and glorious when paired with the GEC.


 

 You have to try the NU6F8G round plate with a adapter


----------



## hypnos1

UPDATE from Lukasz and internal pic...
  
 He apologises for the delay - front panel supplier delivery hold-ups once again (he's looking to sort out...one way or another!)...He does, however, hope to have units ready for shipping by the end of next week. I can assure you your patience will be well worthwhile folks! (I'm feeling real lonely here - can't wait for you to join me...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Hopefully this may cheer you up a bit - and anyone else interested in what things look like inside the amp! (Certain spots have apparently been 'smudged' to retain some in-house R&D elements).
  

  
 "Have a nice day"...
  
 Cheers everyone...
  
 ps....Is it just me or is this somewhat different to what one would normally think of as a PCB based unit?....Sure looks good to me, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Thanks


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> It would be nice to know just what components are properly "burning" inside the Elise...still a big mistery.


 
  
  


jamiemcc said:


> Building a good sounding budget tube amp commercially is always going to be a challenge and a balancing act between profit margins and budgets for componentry as such there will always be significant room for modification/improvment even if its only swapping out one part for another of higher quality.
> 
> Some times small mods can bring nice improvements for very little expense a nice example would be the Russian surplus Teflon capacitors that cost less than a cup of coffee.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


i luvmusic 2 said:


> What i really want to see is the GUTS of the Elise..........


 
  
  


synthax said:


> Dear hypnos1
> 
> Could you please post some pictures of interior of Elise?
> 
> Thank you in advance and all the best in 2015 !!


 
  
  


sgbwill2 said:


> I would also be interested in seeing this as I am curious


 
  
 Hi guys.
  
 Just thought I'd give you a buzz in case you miss my last post re the internal pic...think you'll find it quite interesting, lol!


----------



## JamieMcC

2359glenn said:


> You have to try the NU6F8G round plate with a adapter


 

 Thanks will keep a eye out for some
  
 Thanks for the under the hood shot


----------



## hypnos1

Hey guys....not having played around inside many amps, I would love to hear your observations/comments on what you see!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers,
  
 CJ


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Thank You for the Picture!
 There is definitely a room for some better parts(depending on the  parts size)But for me to upgrade some parts like what i did to my BH CRACK it could run me towards $$$$(Amp price,Taxes and other charges + upgrade parts)Too much for me.


----------



## Mechans1

I have a lot of 6SN7s, but none of the  6F8Gs, which I have heard nothing but good things about.  Can you tell me some names of good adapter sources? 
 I'll have to figure out which tubes I want to chase-- given the number of other tubes I already own, I hope I can trade with some people.
 BTW I was using a NU Black in my HP amp and it is quite good  but I don't have the GEC power tubes. I swapped in a Brimar CV1988 which sounded more detailed and full in my amp.
 Thanks for any help with the adapter.


----------



## gibosi

You are looking for an adapter like this:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-6F8G-6C8G-TO-6SN7-6SL7-TUBE-ADAPTER-/190991571450?
  
 Although I purchased mine from another vendor, mine looks just this.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> You are looking for an adapter like this:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-6F8G-6C8G-TO-6SN7-6SL7-TUBE-ADAPTER-/190991571450?
> 
> Although I purchased mine from another vendor, mine looks just this.


 
 im a bit confused here these 6f8g tubes are to be used on what amp and where exactly as power tubes ? Thanks


----------



## Skylab

In terms of electrical characteristics, a 6F8G is identical to a 6SN7. However, the base and pin out are different, and the 6F8G has a grid cap, so to use a 6F8G in place of a 6SN7, an adapter is needed.


----------



## Johnnysound

hypnos1 said:


> Hey guys....not having played around inside many amps, I would love to hear your observations/comments on what you see!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hi H1, and I also NEVER played inside a tube amp (deadly voltages, LOL)  so I am not qualified for a technical opinion. However, I like what I see in the picture,  This is mostly a point to point handmade unit, obviously with great care, craftsmanship,  and adding the custom, oversized trafo that I specially like, we have some clear indication of quality.  My impression is that this one is built  to  handle very high currents easily.   This is what the 6V6GT family likes.  The two "stars" are  dual mono "star grounding" as I understand it,  and you said that the Elise has also some special AC line voltage conditioning.  Nice, I am no engineer, but obviously the effort  is to reduce background noise, and this allways improve SQ in my experience. I do not want to sound like praising a piece of equipment that I do not have experienced myself, far from that.   However, I do trust your reviews, and if this one is so vastly superior to my LDIII driving headphones, I can only wonder what it can do as a preamp...This audio hobby is all about experimenting with different options, and my trusty NAD, SS powers just have an INTENSE love affair with the little OTL. No technical explanations, it just happens.  One is made for the other.  I have other 2 very nice preamps, (even one exotic TVC passive) far more costly than the LDIII, and you guess it, not even close.  So, the Elise looks like an even better lover...I just have to try this combo.
  
 Now, I am in a big problem.  Was thinking about a tube power amp,  but the OTL tubes go so well with the SS amps that improving the preamp looks like the way to go...


----------



## hypnos1

johnnysound said:


> Hi H1, and I also NEVER played inside a tube amp (deadly voltages, LOL)  so I am not qualified for a technical opinion. However, I like what I see in the picture,  This is mostly a point to point handmade unit, obviously with great care, craftsmanship,  and adding the custom, oversized trafo that I specially like, we have some clear indication of quality.  My impression is that this one is built  to  handle very high currents easily.   This is what the 6V6GT family likes.  The two "stars" are  dual mono "star grounding" as I understand it,  and you said that the Elise has also some special AC line voltage conditioning.  Nice, I am no engineer, but obviously the effort  is to reduce background noise, and this allways improve SQ in my experience. I do not want to sound like praising a piece of equipment that I do not have experienced myself, far from that.   However, I do trust your reviews, and if this one is so vastly superior to my LDIII driving headphones, I can only wonder what it can do as a preamp...This audio hobby is all about experimenting with different options, and my trusty NAD, SS powers just have an INTENSE love affair with the little OTL. No technical explanations, it just happens.  One is made for the other.  I have other 2 very nice preamps, (even one exotic TVC passive) far more costly than the LDIII, and you guess it, not even close.  So, the Elise looks like an even better lover...I just have to try this combo.
> 
> Now, I am in a big problem.  Was thinking about a tube power amp,  but the OTL tubes go so well with the SS amps that improving the preamp looks like the way to go...


 
  
 Hi J.
  
 Yes indeed...for a "PCB-based" amp, I too thought there seemed a good bit of P-to-P....NICE 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Wonder no longer re its performance as a preamp to an SS amp...now with further burn-in my previous glowing report glows even brighter lol!


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Copland-Fanfare-Common-Appalachian-Symphony/dp/B00004UDEQ
> 
> everyone within sight of my post..buy this agog-ing cd, Eiji Oue...a must own !
> That kettledrum slamming textured basssss will separate the Man from the boys when it comes to auditioning of gears.


 
  
 Hi Lorspeaker...better late than never!
  
 With some help from Acapella11, I can finally see why you were 'agog'. What a recording, what a performance. And what an amazing sound from Elise + T1s. This has convinced me (once again!) that the money saved by going for this modestly priced amp could - and SHOULD - go towards something like these headphones. My poor old HD650s - helped immensely though they are by the Elise - just cannot come anywhere near the sound delivered by the T1s...(and yes, I know there's a massive difference in price, but massive also is the difference in sound, lol!).
  
 This kind of recording - and the Elise - scream for some really serious cans...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## mordy




----------



## Lorspeaker

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Lorspeaker...better late than never!
> 
> With some help from Acapella11, I can finally see why you were 'agog'. What a recording, what a performance. And what an amazing sound from Elise + T1s. This has convinced me (once again!) that the money saved by going for this modestly priced amp could - and SHOULD - go towards something like these headphones. My poor old HD650s - helped immensely though they are by the Elise - just cannot come anywhere near the sound delivered by the T1s...(and yes, I know there's a massive difference in price, but massive also is the difference in sound, lol!).
> 
> ...


 

  

  

  

  

  
 All exciting recordings...do check them out for many thunderous nites


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> All exciting recordings...do check them out for many thunderous nites


 
  
 Thanks L...these "Reference Recordings" look real enticing...


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> All exciting recordings...do check them out for many thunderous nites


 
  
 Hi again L.
  
 Treated myself to a hi-res download of their (and Oue's) Stravinsky 'Firebird' and 'Rite of Spring' (from HDTracks)...and my ears are not thanking you, I fear - nearly blew my head off!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... 'wow' doesn't really cover it. Not just the thunderous bass, but the fine detail, dynamics and soundstage are quite phenomenal. I am now well and truly hooked on hi-res...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but my wallet isn't!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Renderman

Hi Hypos1! I have been ogling this thread for quite a while now and the Elise seems like a very interesting product. I think you have a lot of people (me included) excited about it. Any updated on the release date of this little gem?
  
 I would also be interested in the hi-res downloads of the records Lorspeaker recomended, where did you purchase those and do you have any other recommendations?
  
 Cheers,
  
 Mike


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> Hi Hypos1! I have been ogling this thread for quite a while now and the Elise seems like a very interesting product I think you have a lot of people (me included) excited about it. Any updated on the relase date of this little gem?
> 
> I would also be interested in the hi-res downloads of the records Lorspeaker recomended, where did you purchase those and do you have any other recommendations?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Mike.
  
 Glad you have been looking in...as you may have gathered I too think it's a very interesting product, to say the least!  It just keeps upping its game every time I up anything else...and even more so now with these latest hi-res recordings.
  
 I get them from HDtracks.com - their selection is quite amazing, across all genres...Easy if you're in the USA - the rest of us have to cheat in order to get access to the full selection and/or avoid being ripped off! (ie use a VPN to simulate originating in the States...).
  
 I have previously got a few very nice pieces - Holst 'Planets' (Adrian Boult, remastered); Mahler Symphony #8 (Antoni Wit); Tchaikovsky 'Pathetique' (Yannick Nezet-Seguin)...all excellent...not to mention Cat Stevens's 'Tea for the Tillerman'! But now I must go searching for more...oh dear!..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 As for 'release' date, am not sure just when it will be available officially on their website or ebay but Lukasz has been taking orders via direct email - info@feliksaudio.pl - and was hoping to be shipping the first ones quite soon now. If you email him he will gladly provide you with up-to-date info...
  
 Cheers,
  
 CJ


----------



## Renderman

Thank you for the swift reply hypnos1! I can definetly see an Elise in my future 
  
 Ofcourse 'The Planets' by Holst! I immediatly bought it from HDtracks, how nice to rediscover this recording in rich HD glory 
  
 More on topic; when I do get the Elise I would want better tubes for her. Which tubes would you say offer the best price/performance ratio for the Elise?
  
 A matched pair of new 6SN7EH was offered to me at a good price, has anyone here tried these tubes?
  
 Thanks,
  
 Mike


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> Thank you for the swift reply hypnos1! I can definetly see an Elise in my future
> 
> Ofcourse 'The Planets' by Holst! I immediatly bought it from HDtracks, how nice to rediscover this recording in rich HD glory
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi R.
  
 I'm afraid I haven't tried many 6SN7s, but I do believe the general concensus is that the older ('40s/'50s) tubes are better than the newer ones. You will have to search long and hard however to find 'good' to 'strong' used tubes at reasonable prices but they are about if you are prepared to be patient...eg I found a very nice National Union black glass 6SN7GT at a good price. Ken-Rads (grey or black glass) are also well-respected, but seem harder to find and can be a bit pricey. Brimars also are much liked it appears...So too are early Sylvanias - especially the 6SN7W.
  
 I'm hoping those with more experience of these tubes will give us their advice/opinions as time goes on...
  
 I would say, however, that the stock 6N13S power tubes are VERY good indeed and that you would need to spend a fair bit of money to better them - eg Chatham 6AS7G or TungSol/Chathams (with COPPER posts!), and you may have to search real hard once again to find some at a reasonable price...
  
 But this is also a good time to remind those who may not have caught all the posts here that I try to update post #1 with useful/relevant info and some links at the bottom that may be of help...
  
 Cheers,
  
 CJ


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> I'm afraid I haven't tried many 6SN7s, but I do believe the general concensus is that the older ('40s/'50s) tubes are better than the newer ones. You will have to search long and hard however to find 'good' to 'strong' used tubes at reasonable prices but they are about if you are prepared to be patient...eg I found a very nice National Union black glass 6SN7GT at a good price. Ken-Rads (grey or black glass) are also well-respected, but seem harder to find and can be a bit pricey. Brimars also are much liked it appears...So too are early Sylvanias - especially the 6SN7W.
> 
> I'm hoping those with more experience of these tubes will give us their advice/opinions as time goes on...
> 
> ...


 
 Hi CJ, you seem enthausiastic about the stock power tubes and i would certainly take your word for it. The 6N13S power tubes would probably be sufficient for me, at least to start out with. Are there options for the driver tubes from Feliks Audio, any of which you recommend?
  
 Indeed opinions on driver tubes would be very welcome,  will keep my eye out for some NU 6SN7GT's.
  
 Your opening post is very informative indeed, it might be nice to have a link to your video up there aswell!
  
 Enjoy the music,
  
 Mike


----------



## Mechans1

There is no need to rush to the summit of 6SN7 variations although not all would feel as strongly as you do re the NU Black glass. Why  not take a little time and experiment with strong testing but relatively inexpensive Sylvanias, of almost any stripe except coin base and RCA and what ever else is available that is strong but not costly.  These are usually pleasurable experiments.  I suppose if he/she just wants to buy one 6SN7 and be done with it I would offer my choice.  If that be it I still would offer Brimar  CV1988 (1960s).or  Sylvania "W" -the taller the bottle, the bette,r 1940s.  I really discourage doing it that way although it might save money and obviously time, because the user won't know why these tubes are truly better , or are they just my personal taste
 -note- there is no Tung Sol Round Plate and so on.


----------



## hypnos1

mechans1 said:


> There is no need to rush to the summit of 6SN7 variations although not all would feel as strongly as you do re the NU Black glass. Why  not take a little time and experiment with strong testing but relatively inexpensive Sylvanias, of almost any stripe except coin base and RCA and what ever else is available that is strong but not costly.  These are usually pleasurable experiments.  I suppose if he/she just wants to buy one 6SN7 and be done with it I would offer my choice.  If that be it I still would offer Brimar  CV1988 (1960s).or  Sylvania "W" -the taller the bottle, the bette,r 1940s.  I really discourage doing it that way although it might save money and obviously time, because the user won't know why these tubes are truly better , or are they just my personal taste
> -note- there is no Tung Sol Round Plate and so on.


 
  
 Wise words *M1*...a good way to judge the better tubes. Fortunately there is still a good supply of decent 6SN7s, so that course of action shouldn't be _too_ costly...but _time_ does also come into the equation for some! It's also a shame the likes of those Brimars can take some ferreting out, lol!
  
 Fortunate too that this amp delivers very good results even with modest tubes - I'm sure most people would be more than happy without having to pay some of the silly prices that are out there...


----------



## Lorspeaker

I almost picked up those coin-base 6sn7s....not good?? Looks cute


----------



## Nic Rhodes

They are poor performers, I am not a fan of the coin based 6SN7GT NOS, bottom of the NOS pIle IHMO.


----------



## hypnos1

UPDATE ON PRODUCTION.
  
 According to Lukasz the front panel supply issue is now sorted and the first batch of (pre) orders is under construction.
  
 So hopefully I should soon have some new playmates...can't wait!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> UPDATE ON PRODUCTION.
> 
> According to Lukasz the front panel supply issue is now sorted and the first batch of (pre) orders is under construction.
> 
> ...


 
 Wow, great news! I'm curious how te production units wiil turn out and i will keep my eyes on this thread or any listening impressions and photos!
  
 On the subect of tube rolling, I don't he the time or funds to go through dozens of tubes to find my soul mate tube It would be nice to have a few good options to go with the Elise. For some of you it might be blatenly obvious which tubes to try out but as i am quite new to this i don't know which tubes to select. Hypnos1 has given me some good options already. It would be nice if we could cross-reference our findings on at least some of these tubes. I believe this is the power of forums, a way to cooperate and help eachother. When i have an Elise i wil certainly try to give as detailed a description as i can of it.
  
 Good luck to all,
  
 Mike


----------



## gibosi

renderman said:


> On the subect of tube rolling, I don't he the time or funds to go through dozens of tubes to find my soul mate tube It would be nice to have a few good options to go with the Elise. For some of you it might be blatenly obvious which tubes to try out but as i am quite new to this i don't know which tubes to select. Hypnos1 has given me some good options already. It would be nice if we could cross-reference our findings on at least some of these tubes. I believe this is the power of forums, a way to cooperate and help eachother. When i have an Elise i wil certainly try to give as detailed a description as i can of it.


 
  
 Everyone's ears and gear are different. And therefore, a tube one person loves another will find blah... 
  
 There are several threads here on Head-fi devoted to 6SN7 and 6AS7, and I suggest you take some time to skim through them to help you winnow your choices down to a few good candidates:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/410326/for-6as7g-tube-rollers-here
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> UPDATE ON PRODUCTION.
> 
> According to Lukasz the front panel supply issue is now sorted and the first batch of (pre) orders is under construction.
> 
> ...




Good news indeed!


----------



## hypnos1

Further encouragement (perhaps!) -  especially to those with top-flight 6SN7s and 6AS7Gs (or those willing to seek out upgraded tubes...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) - just when I thought I'd reached the pinnacle, feeding the Elise with hi-res tracks (via USB into the Audiolab 8200CD's ESS Sabre DAC) I decided to see what would happen feeding the DAC via coaxial digital from the media player in my Oppo BDP 103 (Blu Ray) player...once AGAIN this amp ups its game. Absolutely mind-boggling! Even 'ordinary' CD 16-bit/44.1 Khz signals take on an extra dimension over and above the very good CD transport in the Audiolab. Yet another notch up in the clarity/detail/soundstage arenas - and certainly a lot 'cleaner' than the USB feed (no surprise there really, I suppose!).
  
 This modestly-priced/'budget'(?) amp is now definitely competing in another league entirely, and will obviously reward any and every upgrade you can manage in the rest of the system, which I am sure (IMHO) will actually give far more 'bang for the buck' than having to spend a lot more on a 'fancier' amp...which would then need said system upgrades to perform to its own best anyway!...
  
 I am now even MORE eager for the feedback from fellow pioneers...which hopefully shouldn't be too long now...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Lorspeaker

which usb cable are u using btw...


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> which usb cable are u using btw...


 
  
 Hi L.
  
 WAS using a Supra High Performance (made in Sweden and rather nice - not cheap!), dual-screened, twisted power and data cables, low-noise etc. etc.
  
 But on further late night listening it's coaxial digital all the way from now on! - the difference was not marginal...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




....


----------



## Acapella11

Hi H1, digital coaxial out is the best solution. However, for "normal" sound file collections, an appropriate PC + sound card would be required. Found 2 cheap ones but only with 16/96:
  
 http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/prosound-71-pci-sound-card-with-coaxial-digital-out-a81jb
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829265002
  
 Not quite sure whether the digital out is actually giving a higher resolution signal (= pass through), 16/96 is just the regular DAC operation. For the Rosewill RC-702 I found an indication that the DAC in principle is capable of 24 Bit.
  
 Btw., any updates on delivered Elises yet?


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Hi H1, digital coaxial out is the best solution. However, for "normal" sound file collections, an appropriate PC + sound card would be required. Found 2 cheap ones but only with 16/96:
> 
> http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/prosound-71-pci-sound-card-with-coaxial-digital-out-a81jb
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829265002
> ...


 
  
 Hi A11...yet another bone of contention of mine : spend a grand on a fancy laptop and no coaxial/optical out...not impressed!
  
 I suppose the other solution is to splash out on a hi-res DAP with said output...or something like the Geek Wave and hope the line out is up to scratch (when/if it actually makes it to the final hurdle, let alone the winners' enclosure lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...
  
 But I must admit I'm getting to like seeing the UI on the big TV screen...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Cheers!
  
 ps. Will give Lukasz a buzz to see how things are looking on the assembly front...


----------



## Renderman

gibosi said:


> Everyone's ears and gear are different. And therefore, a tube one person loves another will find blah...
> 
> There are several threads here on Head-fi devoted to 6SN7 and 6AS7, and I suggest you take some time to skim through them to help you winnow your choices down to a few good candidates:
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Gibosi, i have read all those threads, great source of information.
  
 I managed to find Some RCA VT-231 grey-bottles,locally, for a good price, I have bought them so i guess i am committed to the Elise now   What i liked about their description was that they are much warmer and have a grand presentation. I like a wide soundstage especially on headphones as they can make me feel closed in. These will be the first tubes i will try in the Elise right after the stock tubes.
  

  
 p.s. I would n update on the assembly front of the Elise.


----------



## gibosi

renderman said:


> Thanks Gibosi, i have read all those threads, great source of information.
> 
> I managed to find Some RCA VT-231 grey-bottles,locally, for a good price, I have bought them so i guess i am committed to the Elise now   What i liked about their description was that they are much warmer and have a grand presentation. I like a wide soundstage especially on headphones as they can make me feel closed in. These will be the first tubes i will try in the Elise right after the stock tubes.


 
  
 The RCAs are indeed warm and grand, terrific tubes. 
  
 Something that I find rather curious. When I go to clubs, bars and other small live music venues, the sound tends to be quite bassy and warm. And this warm, bassy sound tends to mask high-frequency detail. On the other hand, a number of the most popular and highly regarded headphones, such as the Senn HD800, are just the opposite -- rather cold, lacking in bass quantity, but superb high-frequency detail. This is essentially the complete opposite of the live music I usually hear. For those who own headphones like the HD800 and crave a bit more warmth and bass without giving up too much detail, the RCAs just might be the perfect match.


----------



## Renderman

You're 


gibosi said:


> The RCAs are indeed warm and grand, terrific tubes.
> 
> Something that I find rather curious. When I go to clubs, bars and other small live music venues, the sound tends to be quite bassy and warm. And this warm, bassy sound tends to mask high-frequency detail. On the other hand, a number of the most popular and highly regarded headphones, such as the Senn HD800, are just the opposite -- rather cold, lacking in bass quantity, but superb high-frequency detail. This is essentially the complete opposite of the live music I usually hear. For those who own headphones like the HD800 and crave a bit more warmth and bass without giving up too much detail, the RCAs just might be the perfect match.


 
 You're right Gibosi! I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I have also experienced a lot of live music and i would like my listening experience at home to come as close as possible to that.  For me that is a wide soundstage and warm sound. I think these tubes will match my preference quite well. This is probably why i also prefer my RCA 6080 tubes, slightly warm, lush midrange and wide soundstage.
  
 Since i've been listning to tubes i realized that to me most solid state amps sound a bit harsh in the highs. Tube amps seem to take the edge off and it makes for a far more enjoyable listning experience,.


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> You're
> You're right Gibosi! I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I have also experienced a lot of live music and i would like my listening experience at home to come as close as possible to that.  For me that is a wide soundstage and warm sound. I think these tubes will match my preference quite well. This is probably why i also prefer my RCA 6080 tubes, slightly warm, lush midrange and wide soundstage.
> 
> Since i've been listning to tubes i realized that to me most solid state amps sound a bit harsh in the highs. Tube amps seem to take the edge off and it makes for a far more enjoyable listning experience,.


 
 Hi *R*....
  
 Just wait 'til you hear the smoooth sound the Elise delivers - I don't think you will be disappointed...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...(especially with those tubes you now have)...


----------



## Renderman

Hi Hypnos,
  
 that is what i'll have to do... wait..
  
 Hope feliksaudio is ready to sent out Eliise soon, it would make a great addition to my setup.
  
 Ofcourse the second upgrade would be the Beyerdynamic T1. Still searching for a new or slightly used one.


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> You're
> You're right Gibosi! I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I have also experienced a lot of live music and i would like my listening experience at home to come as close as possible to that.  For me that is a wide soundstage and warm sound. I think these tubes will match my preference quite well. This is probably why i also prefer my RCA 6080 tubes, slightly warm, lush midrange and wide soundstage.
> 
> Since i've been listning to tubes i realized that to me most solid state amps sound a bit harsh in the highs. Tube amps seem to take the edge off and it makes for a far more enjoyable listning experience,.


 
  
  


renderman said:


> Hi Hypnos,
> 
> that is what i'll have to do... wait..
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again *R*.
  
 From the sound of it those tubes will be just the job (for you, that is) with the T1s, which - like the HD800s -  can sometimes sound less 'cosy' and 'intimate' due to their linearity and lack of coloration, but I personally prefer the greater clarity and detail that comes from more neutral equipment...hence my love of the C3GS/GEC CV2523 combination. This has been brought home to me big-time with some late night listening of 24-bit/176.4kHz offerings from Reference Recordings...(Lorspeaker - I have to thank AND admonish you yet again, given the cost of these higher-res pieces! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Anyway, with lights down and eyes closed my immediate impression was the analogy of (good!) SD video vs HD - a fairly apt one methinks, given very similar descriptive terms used in both media...ie greater crispness/clarity/detail, depth/richness/range of colour, tone and texture; more 3-dimensional imagery/soundstage. Add much greater frequency and dynamic range - which the Elise handles with ease - and the result is eye-opening to say the least, and (fortunately) justifies the extra cost of these files IMHO.
  
 Of course, as always, there _can_ sometimes be a price to pay - for those who like 'cosy' etc. _some_ pieces might stray into the opposite camp a little too much, depending on set-up used naturally...but when those qualities I've just mentioned have been experienced through good equipment they could easily convert many! (Especially when you hear a good orchestra - well recorded - in full swing, quiet passages included...). But the beauty of our tube amps is that we can fine tune the signature to our individual tastes simply by swapping tubes - and the Elise being just a tad on the warm side of neutral she takes this fine tuning also with ease, not to mention alacrity!
  
 And so I am now firmly in the hi-res camp - especially 176.4/192kHz territory - and my wallet is getting emptier by the day, lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 CHEERS!
  
 ps. Am awaiting update on assembly/shipping from Lukasz...


----------



## hypnos1

PRODUCTION UPDATE.
  
 Apologies from Lukasz re the delay - it would appear the front panel supply issues really messed things up for their whole operation, but the first units are now undergoing QC testing and preparatory burn-in. He hopes to be getting in touch with the first pre-orders by the end of the week...so it shouldn't be long now. Your patience will be well rewarded - of that I am certain!


----------



## hypnos1

Hopefully those who placed the first pre-orders should be on the verge of hearing from Lukasz, and so I would just like to urge any who may not have yet joined the forum to please do so and give us your views and findings - we don't bite!...(well, most of us anyway!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...
  
 Cheers,
  
 CJ
  
 ps. After hearing the improvement using coax out from the Oppo BDP103, I have treated myself to Christmas present #3 - an ibasso DX90 hi-res DAP. With line out, coax out and dual ESS Sabre DAC I am hoping I'm not "using a sledgehammer to crack a nut" lol!...It should be easier, with (hopefully) a better UI than the Oppo's media player and although it was nice to have the 42" TV display I never fully realised the noise that comes from a plasma set - especially with late-night listening!
  
 It sure will be interesting to see how the LO direct to the Elise compares to via coax out to Audiolab...


----------



## Acapella11

Hi H1, would be curious too. Enjoy your new toy =)


----------



## SonicTrance

mikelap said:


> These are russian 6H13C     1987
> 
> These below are 6H5C     1959


 
  
 Hi Mikelap,
  
 How would you rate the 6H5C vs the 6H13C? I got a pair of 6H5C's (my first 6AS7 type tube) and thinking about buying a pair of 6H13C's.


----------



## hypnos1

sonictrance said:


> Hi Mikelap,
> 
> How would you rate the 6H5C vs the 6H13C? I got a pair of 6H5C's (my first 6AS7 type tube) and thinking about buying a pair of 6H13C's.


 
  
 Hey MX.
  
 Treat yourself to an Elise...then you'll already have a nice pair of 6N13Ss, lol!!...


----------



## SonicTrance

hypnos1 said:


> Hey MX.
> 
> Treat yourself to an Elise...then you'll already have a nice pair of 6N13Ss, lol!!...


 
 Yeah, I suppose that would be one way to go, lol


----------



## MIKELAP

sonictrance said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > These are russian 6H13C     1987
> ...


 
 I would have to give them a listen again but its no night day differences im shure


----------



## MIKELAP

mikelap said:


> sonictrance said:
> 
> 
> > mikelap said:
> ...


 
 Gave them a listen its like i said they sound pretty similar but since there cheap you could always try a pair and youll have a backup and you could judge for yourself  .I have several pairs myself but i also like to collect them .


----------



## SonicTrance

mikelap said:


> Gave them a listen its like i said they sound pretty similar but since there cheap you could always try a pair and youll have a backup and you could judge for yourself  .I have several pairs myself but i also like to collect them .




Thank you for taking the time to compare the two! I think I'll buy a pair and see for my self as well.


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again *R*.
> 
> From the sound of it those tubes will be just the job (for you, that is) with the T1s, which - like the HD800s -  can sometimes sound less 'cosy' and 'intimate' due to their linearity and lack of coloration, but I personally prefer the greater clarity and detail that comes from more neutral equipment...hence my love of the C3GS/GEC CV2523 combination. This has been brought home to me big-time with some late night listening of 24-bit/176.4kHz offerings from Reference Recordings.
> 
> ps. Am awaiting update on assembly/shipping from Lukasz...


 
 Cheers Hypnos!
  
 I'm sure these would be quite enjoyable to listen to. Will keep an eye out for other tubes to try. If there are some to be found at a good price i will likely give them a whirl. I also listen to a lot of high-res recordings, mostly 96Khz/24bit however, sounds a lot better then 44Khz to my ears.
  
 I'm curious if anyone has received word from feliks audio on delivery of their Elise yet. Hopefully they have some in stock now and i will be able to get one soon


----------



## hypnos1

WONDERFUL NEWS...Lukasz has just informed me the very first orders will be ready for shipment Friday, so things are now looking good...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









  
 Hope to be getting plenty of feedback soon...can't wait!


----------



## Acapella11

gibosi said:


> The RCAs are indeed warm and grand, terrific tubes.
> 
> Something that I find rather curious. When I go to clubs, bars and other small live music venues, the sound tends to be quite bassy and warm. And this warm, bassy sound tends to mask high-frequency detail. On the other hand, a number of the most popular and highly regarded headphones, such as the Senn HD800, are just the opposite -- rather cold, lacking in bass quantity, but superb high-frequency detail. This is essentially the complete opposite of the live music I usually hear. For those who own headphones like the HD800 and crave a bit more warmth and bass without giving up too much detail, the RCAs just might be the perfect match.


 
  
 Besides, I would suggest every HD800 owner to buy a Norne Draug 2 cable first thing


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Hi H1, would be curious too. Enjoy your new toy =)


 
  
 Hi A11.
  
 Well, this kid didn't play with his new toy for very long...NOT very impressed.
  
 First, the 3.5mm stereo line out was u/s - intermittent loss of stereo connection, which could be occasionally rectified by tapping the bottom of the unit!! (My jack plug is fine in other equipment...).
 To tell the truth I never have liked these tiny plugs/sockets...have found them unreliable in the past, to say the least! So back it goes and shan't be replacing...
  
 Second, I was hoping (against hope I suppose) that it would closely approach the Audiolab, given its use of dual ESS Sabre DACs...should have known better, lol! For a portable hi-res DAP I must admit it is pretty amazing - it drove my Beyer T1s fairly easily as well. But it just cannot "cut the mustard" when in the company of some very good kit, hence another reason for not replacing.
  
 I know I am being a bit unfair on the poor little thing, but I was somewhat misled by the glowing reports on the ibasso threads - even line-outputting from the Oppo BDP with 20+ft of Cat 5 cable direct to the Elise was far superior...
  
 Ah well, back to the drawing board...Geek Wave perhaps? (Am now very reluctant however, given the dreaded 3.5mm line out and NO digital out...).


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> Hi A11.
> 
> Well, this kid didn't play with his new toy for very long...NOT very impressed.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi H1, Well, it seems you need to up the game for the Audiolab competitor a bit. What about the Astel Kern 120?


----------



## Mechans1

I find it curious that it can be the little thing, like the jack, that can have a profound effect on the rest even with what should have wonderful ESS Sabre DACs.  There must be other issues as well, the overall circuit design for one big obvious matter, the caps used etc. I will try to illustrate the idea - use  a super  car engine in an old econobox car, your  not going get much super car out of the result. I am sure I am preaching to the choir.


----------



## hypnos1

mechans1 said:


> I find it curious that it can be the little thing, like the jack, that can have a profound effect on the rest even with what should have wonderful ESS Sabre DACs.  There must be other issues as well, the overall circuit design for one big obvious matter, the caps used etc. I will try to illustrate the idea - use  a super  car engine in an old econobox car, your  not going get much super car out of the result. I am sure I am preaching to the choir.


 
  
 Hi M1...just my sense of 'humour', lol - by 'little thing' I was referring to the whole thing!...and surprisingly good for such a diminutive "all-in-one".
  
 But yes, of course you're right - a Ferrari engine in a Ford Fiesta!!...it just ain't gonna really work 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Shame...
  
 And A11, very good though the AKs seem to be, I suspect they too are extremely good at what they do in the 'portable' arena, but in the 'desktop' are left wanting - especially given their cost!! So I am looking into the Oppo's apparent ability to be controlled wirelessly by tablet via an app, and so eliminate the noisy plasma TV as screen...until the Audiolab nears the end of its days?!!...


----------



## whirlwind

I am looking for a pair of Chatam 6AS7.....anybody have a website that has these in stock.....thanks for any help.


----------



## smial1966

Are these what you're after?
  
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JAN-CAHG-6AS7G-2-CHATHAM-ELECTRONICS-USED-TESTED-VACUUM-TUBES-V83-/311316041896?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item487be1d0a8
  
 Quote:


whirlwind said:


> I am looking for a pair of Chatam 6AS7.....anybody have a website that has these in stock.....thanks for any help.


----------



## whirlwind

I believe so.....but hard to tell exactly , since i can not zoom on the picture.


----------



## hypnos1

whirlwind said:


> I believe so.....but hard to tell exactly , since i can not zoom on the picture.


 
  
 smial1966 is right on the button - they look a nice pair...GOOD LUCK!
  
 CJ


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> And A11, very good though the AKs seem to be, I suspect they too are extremely good at what they do in the 'portable' arena, *but in the 'desktop' are left wanting* - especially given their cost!! So I am looking into the Oppo's apparent ability to be controlled wirelessly by tablet via an app, and so eliminate the noisy plasma TV as screen...until the Audiolab nears the end of its days?!!...


 
  
 Hi H1, Have a look at the NAD M51 =) That seems to me to be one of the next logical upgrades from the Audiolab DAC.


----------



## hypnos1

Things are moving - 2 units shipped Friday...anyone we know?...
  
 4 more being assembled...hope the pending good news is shared with us all here...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(waiting with eager anticipation...).


----------



## smial1966

One is heading my way and will be on demonstration at the forthcoming UK Head-Fi Meet in Cambridge on Saturday 25th April. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> Things are moving - 2 units shipped Friday...anyone we know?...
> 
> 4 more being assembled...hope the pending good news is shared with us all here...
> 
> ...


----------



## hypnos1

smial1966 said:


>


 
  
 Hi smial1966.
  
 This is GREAT news...am really looking forward to your assessment of the Elise.
  
 I presume you have some very nice tubes to test with...
  
 So, it looks like there will be TWO Elises at Cambridge! - you with your best tubes and me with my adapted C3gSs + GECs...should be VERY interesting, lol!
 And with my Beyer T1s, A11's HD800s + MDAC, (and _your_ cans?) I'm really looking forward to my first head-fi meet - and especially to meeting you guys.
 (All we shall need is a good media player with coax out to feed the MDAC and we're away!). But I'll still bring my tablet with USB out, just in case...
  
 Roll on 25th April...


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> Hi smial1966.
> 
> This is GREAT news...am really looking forward to your assessment of the Elise.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good you decided to join in! Looking forward to see you there and team up with you  Apparently a friend of mine bought an Elise, which is on the way now...


----------



## mordy

Just got an email from Feliks that they are readying Elise amps for 120V operation. Shipping dates are expected April 8-10.
  
 Did anybody receive their 220V amp yet? Impressions?


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Just got an email from Feliks that they are readying Elise amps for 120V operation. Shipping dates are expected April 8-10.
> 
> Did anybody receive their 220V amp yet? Impressions?


 
 Yep! I got the same email today, I went for it and ordered an Elise! So excited...
  
 I hope the Elise will be here soon so I can listen too it and join the others in this community.
  
 If it sounds anything like i'm expecting this will be the amplifier i've been looking (listening) for!
  
 Thanks in great deal due to Hypnos1 and his enthausiasm!


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 Isn't your voltage 230V?


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> Isn't your voltage 230V?


 
 Yep, do you think it will make a huge diffrence with 220v?


----------



## mordy

Not at all, just thought that you do not have to wait for 120V version since 230V versions were the first to be made....


----------



## Renderman

If i understood Lukasz correctly the Elises are made in small batches. All of the first batch has been sold and they are now putting the final touches of the second batch. I am not sure if the 120V versions are made at the same time. Seems to me those would only require a different transformer and could be made virtually at the same time.


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> If i understood Lukasz correctly the Elises are made in small batches. All of the first batch has been sold and they are now putting the final touches of the second batch. I am not sure if the 120V versions are made at the same time. Seems to me those would only require a different transformer and could be made virtually at the same time.


 
  
 Hi R.
  
 Congratulations on biting the bullet - I do hope you won't have too long a wait for your own unit...
  
 As I am only just back from hols I haven't been able to keep up to date with things - Wi-Fi at the hotel in Malta was less than useless!!
  
 Re 'batches' Lukasz told me that production would be on a 'first come first served' basis, so perhaps this would explain its ethos/timing. Whatever, I'm sure yours will soon be seeing the light of (happy!) day...(but if you're anything like me, you'll be counting the days for sure lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 - your pain is my pain, mon ami...).
  
 CHEERS!
  
 CJ


----------



## hypnos1

Further reflection on how the Elise just keeps upping its game (admittedly with some very nice tubes in place, especially...).
  
 Having recently discovered the heightened joys of feeding the amp via media player (micro SD card in USB carrier) of Oppo BDP103/Audiolab 8200CD's DAC, I am somewhat mystified by a further enhancement in sound after a firmware update to the Oppo...either that or my ears are undergoing an _improvement_ with age as opposed to the expected _worsening_ - which is highly improbable methinks!!
 A change to things analogue I can understand (?), but digital sound out?...beyond me! The main impression I get is even better instrument separation and placement with concomitant greater detail/resolution, along with a word I'm not usually very happy with - "musicality"...(Perhaps something to do with digital waveforms/spacing/timing etc. etc.?)...Whatever, it brought a new magic to James Taylor's "You've got a friend" that fair blew me away - the nuances in the guitar playing were especially astounding...and the overall presentation for quite an old recording now was equally impressive 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...pure bliss...
  
 This has finally convinced me of the superiority of playback via media card (plus good player, of course!) over even a very good CD feed - so long as the DAC is up to scratch needless to say....thoughts, anyone?...
  
 ps  HAPPY EASTER EVERYONE!


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Hi R.
> 
> Congratulations on biting the bullet - I do hope you won't have too long a wait for your own unit...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks CJ!
  
 You must be psychic! I am indeed counting the days to the arrival of Elise  Last word i got from Lukasz it would be April 8th to 10th, heres hoping!Ihave been burning in 2 of my NOS RCA 6080's in anticipation of the arrival.
  
 Being without Wifi/internet can have it merits, It can be relaxing and leave more room to broaden my horizons...
  
 It's great you are still enjoying your setup and Elise so much. All i can comment on sd playback is I recently got the chance to listen to a Fiio X3 Second Generation. My hopes for this little 200 dollar 'ipod immitation' were not high, to say the least!
  
 Man was I proven wrong... even directly connected to my T1's this little wonder sounded amazing (with hi-res recordings). Very musical, paced and quite articulate. The X3 is definitly on my wish list. Check it out, i can recommend it.
  
 I've also orderd the Philips SHP9500 headphones, they are relatively inexpensive but have a similar sound signature to the T1's. Impedance of 32 ohms so easier so drive for mobile use as i will be using these on the go (not risking my T1's on those adventures ).
  
 Happy Easter!
  
 Mike


----------



## hypnos1

Great news Mike...looks like you won't have too long a wait after all - lucky you!
  
 Am really looking forward to your impressions


renderman said:


> Thanks CJ!
> 
> You must be psychic! I am indeed counting the days to the arrival of Elise  Last word i got from Lukasz it would be April 8th to 10th, heres hoping!Ihave been burning in 2 of my NOS RCA 6080's in anticipation of the arrival.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great news Mike...looks like you won't have too long a wait after all - lucky you!!
  
 Am really looking forward to your impressions. I must admit I do hope your RCA 6080s are better than my RCA 6AS7Gs - they were awful!...to my ears anyway. The bundled Russian 6N13Ss were much better in fact, IMHO...I really do recommend you look out for a nice pair of Chatham or Tung Sol/Chatham 6AS7Gs (with copper rods)...I honestly believe you would have to spend a great deal of money to better them - like my now insanely priced GEC variants, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Yes, those Far Eastern hi-res media players are quite amazing, given their size and price. The ibasso DX90 I tried, which is supposedly better even than the fiio, did surprise me...but came nowhere near my Audiolab - especially when fed via the Oppo as I mentioned previously. But for 'mobile' use, truly incredible...
  
 Best wishes for the joy to come...
  
 Cheers!


----------



## hypnos1

UPDATE from Lukasz.
  
 The next units should indeed be under way within the week...so more lucky people, along with Renderman 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 The Feliks-Audio site has been updated (www.feliksaudio.pl/en), with more info and facility for direct ordering...plus options for different drivers, ie new production Tung Sol 6SN7s, or Melz metal-based equivalents.
  
 So hopefully it won't be too long now for different ears to pronounce their findings!...
  
 Here's hoping for (relatively!) speedy delivery to you folks...


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Great news Mike...looks like you won't have too long a wait after all - lucky you!
> 
> Am really looking forward to your impressions
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well i do have some more tubes to try out with the Elise, i'll keep those a surprise for now  Will try diffrent variants and combos to find the best sound. If you know of any Tungs or Chathams, hit me up and i will try those.
  
 On paper the iBasso should be better (dual dacs etc) however, i've read impressions by others that prefer the X3sg. Personally i have not had the pleasure of listening to a DX90 and can not give my own opinion about it.
  
 Will order an X3 second gen as soon as its available, i'm sure it will more then suffice for mobile use, will do some critical listening at home.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## mordy

Am I the only one that has tried the Sylvania 6080 1960's tubes? IMHO they are better than the Chathams.


----------



## gibosi

I am very partial to the Sylvania "house sound", which tends to be musical, warm and liquid. And in my opinion, while different, the Sylvania 6080 is on par with the Chatham 6AS7. However, it doesn't have quite the clarity, transparency and detail of some of the better tubes, such as the GEC and the 5998, and I don't think they are worth a premium price. But hey, they can often be found cheap. I picked up a half-dozen Gold Brand 6080 for about $7 each, and at that price, they are definitely worth a try.


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> Further reflection on how the Elise just keeps upping its game (admittedly with some very nice tubes in place, especially...).
> 
> Having recently discovered the heightened joys of feeding the amp via media player (micro SD card in USB carrier) of Oppo BDP103/Audiolab 8200CD's DAC, I am somewhat mystified by a further enhancement in sound after a firmware update to the Oppo...either that or my ears are undergoing an _improvement_ with age as opposed to the expected _worsening_ - which is highly improbable methinks!!
> A change to things analogue I can understand (?), but digital sound out?...beyond me! The main impression I get is even better instrument separation and placement with concomitant greater detail/resolution, along with a word I'm not usually very happy with - "musicality"...(Perhaps something to do with digital waveforms/spacing/timing etc. etc.?)...Whatever, it brought a new magic to James Taylor's "You've got a friend" that fair blew me away - the nuances in the guitar playing were especially astounding...and the overall presentation for quite an old recording now was equally impressive
> ...


 
  
 Hi H1,
  
 Good to see you back. I have tried the Coax input into my MDAC /w Chord Performance coaxial cable via M2tech USB to coax converter and compared to USB via Chord silver plus. THere were differences but very subtle. The coax sounded more spacious, more perception of ambience basically. Also, it allowed me you use 192 kHz, USB on the MDAC only works up to 96 kHz. Generelly, I wouldn't say a good bang for the buck on my system but a subtle improvement, which is fun to keep.
  
 Additionally, I further investigated the influence of power quality to sound. Using a borrowed Isotek Titan (MK1), Isotek GII Minisub  and my Powerinspired AG500. The Titan is totally overpowered for HP use, it is more for a 500 W stereo, but it still uses highend filtering. Each of these components have their own signature, believe it or not. I wouldn't recommend the Minisub, but definitely the AG500 with a more spacious presentation and more details overall. The Titan is one serious unit but I wouldn't think for HP use it is a good bang for the buck. However, it is superior to the AG500 in my ears in terms of stage and detail but I would again recommend the AG500. What I found quite interesting was that the Titan could not improve the sound when used _before_ the AG500 but when using _after_ the AG500, it managed to filter out more background noise and allowed me for the first time to differentiate that a singer in a choral piece I know quite well, is not standing in the crowd but actually in front of it. I was quite impressed. Differences again are moderately subtle, so the experiment was exciting but in fact overkill for the many of us. However, it clearly shows the impact of electricity quality on sound, which is also reflected in USB- and battery powering resulting in very good sounding units.
  
 Power is often underestimated as a factor to be taken into account. I wouldn't be surprised if the power filtering build into the Elise strongly contributes to the good sound.
  
 Happy Easter everyone


----------



## Mechans1

mordy said:


> Am I the only one that has tried the Sylvania 6080 1960's tubes? IMHO they are better than the Chathams.


 

 I have tried a few 6080 and like them more than many of the 6AS7Gs I have tried but have not tried the Sylvanias.  I will keep an eye out for them, but I too have fallen for the 5998s which sound better than the WE 421As I have managed to buy.  I think the 421as are on their last legs so it might not be fair. Nonetheless thanks for the tip.


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Am I the only one that has tried the Sylvania 6080 1960's tubes? IMHO they are better than the Chathams.


 
 Hey mordy got a picture of those Sylvanias and markings i should look for .Thanks


----------



## gibosi

A recent pic....  Someone wanted to see the Sylvania 6080 (left) next to a GEC 6080 (right) to see the construction differences.....


----------



## Nic Rhodes

I like the GB (Gold Brand) Sylvanias and they are still cheap and available. On par with the RCA Command and GE 5* 6080s. The more basic GE or RCAs I am less enthusiastic about but do rate Tung Sols / Chathams (however they are harder to find and more expensive nowdays). GEC  and Mullards are still my favourite 6080s however. Not much wrong with the Russian 6N5C  and 6N13S however.


----------



## Shaffer

HI folks. I'm seriously considering an Elise. One question: Can NOS GE 6SN7GTB be used in place of the stock 6SN7 driver tubes? 

Thank you in advance.


----------



## Renderman

Hi Shaffer, good to see you here. As far is I know you can definitly use the 6SN7GTB in the Elise. Most harm it can do is make the Elise sound even better 
  
 Hope you join the club!
  
 Mike


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> HI folks. I'm seriously considering an Elise. One question: Can NOS GE 6SN7GTB be used in place of the stock 6SN7 driver tubes?
> 
> Thank you in advance.


 
  
 Hi Shaffer.
  
 Nice to see a new face on the thread...WELCOME!...
  
 I suppose I'm biased, but I do hope you take the plunge - I'm eager for others to discover what the Feliks guys have managed to conjure up...not to mention the results of different tube combinations (can't really run to any more experimenting myself, lol!).
  
 And any of the 6SN7 family should definitely be fine...
  
 So good luck with whatever course you choose...
  
 ps.  And to all.... Lukasz is one very helpful guy, so any queries whatsoever that aren't covered here he is only too happy to answer : just email him at info@feliksaudio.pl


----------



## hypnos1

acapella11 said:


> Hi H1,
> 
> Good to see you back. I have tried the Coax input into my MDAC /w Chord Performance coaxial cable via M2tech USB to coax converter and compared to USB via Chord silver plus. THere were differences but very subtle. The coax sounded more spacious, more perception of ambience basically. Also, it allowed me you use 192 kHz, USB on the MDAC only works up to 96 kHz. Generelly, I wouldn't say a good bang for the buck on my system but a subtle improvement, which is fun to keep.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi A11....thanks...good to be back!
  
 I certainly agree with you re. 'conditioning' the mains supply...I have always found improvements in both audio and video using my Tacima conditioner/filters over the years. And yes, I'm quite sure the Feliks guys' in-house noise filtering has further contributed to its stellar performance.


----------



## Mechans1

shaffer said:


> HI folks. I'm seriously considering an Elise. One question: Can NOS GE 6SN7GTB be used in place of the stock 6SN7 driver tubes?
> 
> Thank you in advance.


 
  
 Firstly yes you can, I have been using GTs GTAs GTBs, GGTW GTWAs and even GTYs (Brimar) interchangeably for years  without incident or problem.
  I would caution you about  dismissing the importance of the driver tube, which I have heard said of them that they are there to heat up the output tubes. I have found them to be a very important contributor to the sound quality as drivers. .In some circuits they have a greater incidence more and some less. You may want to check out the "6SN7 Addicts" thread for a discussion of the relative merits of each brand and particular variants.  On the other hand you may not to because tube rolling is a slippery slope and you might become an addict yourself, I did and am using all of one 6SN7 at this time, I own dozens of them OY!


----------



## Shaffer

I truly appreciate the replies and the tips, guys. Very helpful. Quick question, do you feel like the factory Tung-Sol upgrade should be seriously considered?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> I truly appreciate the replies and the tips, guys. Very helpful. Quick question, do you feel like the factory Tung-Sol upgrade should be seriously considered?


 
  
 No.
  
 There are numerous old-stock tubes available that will provide better sound for the same cost, and often less.


----------



## Shaffer

Well, I have a whole bunch of gear up on ebay. Depending on the sales, I may be contacting Poland. Sure would like to.


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> Well, I have a whole bunch of gear up on ebay. Depending on the sales, I may be contacting Poland. Sure would like to.


 
  
 GOOD LUCK, S!


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Well, I have a whole bunch of gear up on ebay. Depending on the sales, I may be contacting Poland. Sure would like to.


 
 Send us the link, maybe we can help out!


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Send us the link, maybe we can help out!




That would be more than welcome 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/blk91gti/m.html?item=321716197046&ssPageName=STRK%3AMESELX%3AIT&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562


----------



## Renderman

I would love to pitch in and help a fellow headphone enthausiast but, I see you only ship to the states and i'm in the netherlands.


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> I would love to pitch in and help a fellow headphone enthausiast but, I see you only ship to the states and i'm in the netherlands.




If you're interested in any of the tubes or in the cans, I'll ship to Holland, but I'd have to charge the actual shipping cost.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> If you're interested in any of the tubes or in the cans, I'll ship to Holland, but I'd have to charge the actual shipping cost.


 
 Sorry i have no need for those. Good luck with your sale! I hope you can move all of it quickly so you can order an Elise to call your own.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 On another note, are there any other community members that took delivery of an Elise recently? I would love to know what your impressions are.


----------



## Mechans1

shaffer said:


> I truly appreciate the replies and the tips, guys. Very helpful. Quick question, do you feel like the factory Tung-Sol upgrade should be seriously considered?


 
 The Tung Sol current production is a decent tube and may sound great in this application.  My own experience tells me that using Old Stock tubes generally improves the SQ.  I can't tell you which one, but I would seriously consider starting with a modest available old stock tube, like one  of the less wildly sought after Sylvanias. Perhaps a Sylvania GTA iif you are lucky, maybe you happen across the three rivet version with extra  large chrome gettering called Chrome Domes. If not those,  try the triangle plate version.  That is just a test of how critical the tube roll may be.
 If there are specific outcomes you want,  let us know (As precisely as you can- avoid just better, using as many  descriptors you can and perhaps you will get targeted answers.  Do include a budget.  The Tung Sol Black Glass round  Plate new in box will cost upeard of $500, if it appears truly  New Old Stock. So get back to us with what you want and maybe we call give you precise advice.
 Do not throw out the stock tubes, in some albeit unusual cases, it is truly what the engineers voiced the amp with and other tubes may not sound better but this is rare.  I had that happen all of one time in aver a dozen years of being an inveterate tube roller.


----------



## Shaffer

^^^ Good advice. Thank you for taking the time.

FWIW, I'm very close to an Elise and there are still 4 days left on my auctions. Needless to say, I'm pretty happy.

Out of sheer curiosity, what has been the typical wait time for the amp to ship lately?


----------



## Renderman

Hi Shaffer,
  
 As i understoond it from lukasz there will be amps ready for shipping around the 9th! So very very soon, i'm also very excited.
  
 Good luck and i hope everything works out for you.
  
 Mike


----------



## Nic Rhodes

It would be nice to have a buying option with no supplied tubes also  Many of the roller interested may have stacks already.


----------



## MIKELAP

nic rhodes said:


> It would be nice to have a buying option with no supplied tubes also  Many of the roller interested may have stacks already.


 
 I asked for that it was only $50.00 cheaper


----------



## Nic Rhodes

Thanks, still $50 though  Every little helps with a house move on the horizon.


----------



## MIKELAP

nic rhodes said:


> Thanks, still $50 though  Every little helps with a house move on the horizon.


 
 Oh ya for shure ,but still wasnt enough for me with exchanged and custom to much so it was more worth it for me to get something overhere


----------



## mordy

Hi Nic,
  
 I have among others the Sylvania GB and Chatham 6080 tubes, but prefer the plain Sylvania 6080 tubes from the 1960's. To me, these 60's tubes sound better than the previously mentioned, as well as better than the Chatham 6AS7 tubes.
  
 Have you tried a MKIII with 6080 tubes?


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Hi Nic,
> 
> I have among others the Sylvania GB and Chatham 6080 tubes, but prefer the plain Sylvania 6080 tubes from the 1960's. To me, these 60's tubes sound better than the previously mentioned, as well as better than the Chatham 6AS7 tubes.
> 
> Have you tried a MKIII with 6080 tubes?


 
 Are those your SYLVANIAS on the left in picture is there markings to look for ,for the 60S model .


----------



## gibosi

The earlier Sylvania 6080 do not have the third mica on top. Moreover, they will likely be labeled 6080WA or WB. However, I have seen 6080WB with the third mica dated 1969. The 6080WCs seem to be from the 1970s and later, and all have the third mica. So I would suggest the earliest ones are 6080WA without the third mica on top.
  
 For example, these are currently on eBay: 6080WA. The tube on the left is dated 1951.


----------



## Nic Rhodes

mordy said:


> Hi Nic,
> 
> I have among others the Sylvania GB and Chatham 6080 tubes, but prefer the plain Sylvania 6080 tubes from the 1960's. To me, these 60's tubes sound better than the previously mentioned, as well as better than the Chatham 6AS7 tubes.
> 
> Have you tried a MKIII with 6080 tubes?


 
 I don't have a Mk111 mordy so no, but do have a Mk9 and have tried them on that but also have 5+ other 6AS7G amps that I have tried these on so my view is quite a wide one (and it is what I like to do). I have not tried them on my 4SE as I prefer not to use separate PSUs (but can do). I quite like standard Sylvanias however, it is the standard RCAs and GE that leave me a bit wanting, not sure why though they always seem a bit anemic to me. Getting 60s Sylvanias is harder now days and many are 70s / 80s WC PhilipsECG types. I get the distinct feeling the days of pleantifull Western 6AS7G are finishing, along with 6080s closely following.


----------



## mordy

The Sylvania tubes that I like look like the right one on the picture:
  




  
 My tubes are from 1966, 1969 and 1971 and have triple micas, copper rods,  and are labeled 6080WB. The green silk screening says Sylvania CHS 6080WB and has the date, and on the other side of the tube it says 6080WB in gold silk screening. The bottom plastic base is grey with silver metal around it.
 i don't lose any sleep over the fact that they are not date matched - they sound excellent. I paid around $3 each.


----------



## Shaffer

Guys, what's the best way to get in touch with Feliks? I sent an emal and use their contact message box, so far nothing.


----------



## Renderman

Hey Shaffer, I'm not sure when you sent your email. But today is the second day of easter here an d businesses are closed. I'm sure you will get a reply from them tomorrow.
  
 Hang in there, i'm sure you will be able to purchase an Elise soon


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Hey Shaffer, I'm not sure when you sent your email. But today is the second day of easter here an d businesses are closed. I'm sure you will get a reply from them tomorrow.
> 
> Hang in there, i'm sure you will be able to purchase an Elise soon




Ahhh, forgot all about Easter. That makes sense. Thanks.


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> Hey Shaffer, I'm not sure when you sent your email. But today is the second day of easter here an d businesses are closed. I'm sure you will get a reply from them tomorrow.
> 
> Hang in there, i'm sure you will be able to purchase an Elise soon


 
  
 Hi *R*....thanks for enlightening folks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...
  


shaffer said:


> Ahhh, forgot all about Easter. That makes sense. Thanks.


 
  
 Hi *S*...I'm quite sure also everything closed down for Easter...
  
 Hope you do manage to go for an Elise - I don't think you'd be disappointed...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Shaffer

hypnos1 said:


> Hope you do manage to go for an Elise - I don't think you'd be disappointed... .




Just heard back from Feliks (my first name is Felix, BTW). They'll be able to ship at the end of April/beginning of May. Fine. I can wait a bit.


----------



## mordy

I am somewhat surprised that we have not heard from a single new owner of the Elise, although some units were supposed to be shipped in March.
  
 When my Little Dot MKIII was hot in demand a few years ago, I had to wait five months for it to become available. However, once it shipped, it took 4 days. From China to the US.
  
 How long does it take to ship an Elise from Poland to the UK?
  
 My impression is that the availability dates are optimistic.
  
 I would really like to hear from several owners of the Elise about their impressions.


----------



## lukeap69

Still waiting for somebody with HD800 to provide impressions... Perhaps nobody except Colin had receive the Elise?


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> [...]
> 
> I would really like to hear from several owners of the Elise about their impressions.




As would I.


----------



## MIKELAP

i had put myself on the list and amp was suppose to be available around 9 april .


----------



## Renderman

mikelap said:


> i had put myself on the list and amp was suppose to be available around 9 april .


 
 Me too MIKELAP, april 8 to 10th is what Lukasz told me, i have no indication from him that anything changed.
  
 I also hope we do get to see some impressions soon! Maybe all the Elise owners are too busy listening to and enjoying their amps 
  
 As much as I value Hypnos' opinion, it would still be nice to get a broader view.


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> Me too MIKELAP, april 8 to 10th is what Lukasz told me, i have no indication from him that anything changed.
> 
> I also hope we do get to see some impressions soon! Maybe all the Elise owners are too busy listening to and enjoying their amps
> 
> As much as I value Hypnos' opinion, it would still be nice to get a broader view.


 
  
 Hi guys...there's no-one keener than I to hear others' impressions! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 - let's hope it will be soon now...


----------



## hypnos1

hypnos1 said:


> Hi guys...there's no-one keener than I to hear others' impressions!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 ...And, if all else fails, there should (hopefully!) be 2 Elises at the Cambridge (UK) head-fi meet on 25th April - so there should be an opinion or two from this crowd, lol!!...am I nervous?...YOU BET! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (these guys are gonna be far more experienced than I...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but at least my 18+mths of tube rolling over at the LDVTATRolling thread have given me a bit more confidence than I ever had before in assessing sound - thanks to the really helpful guys there, plus the wealth of knowledge/advice posted by a lot of seriously experienced members on many of the other related threads, and to whom I am most grateful).
  
 So roll on 25th!...


----------



## hypnos1

Wanting to get some idea of approximate lead time for new orders, I buzzed Lukasz - he states about 4 to 5 weeks, which for a "boutique" manufacturer as opposed to "factory" is pretty impressive...especially as this is a completely new model for them, and not just an 'upgraded' previous one.
  
 I can't begin to imagine the problems involved in establishing a 'modus operandi' for regular production, but they must be quite challenging to say the least!
  
 It's nice to know they are working weekends also to meet orders as quickly as possible...it sounds like there are a lot of man-hours involved in making these amps - I should imagine the Accountant/Finance Director is/are having kittens with this new project!
  
 Apparently the next 3 units are nearly finished and will be undergoing testing and preliminary burn-in this weekend, ready for shipping...so, soon folks, soon...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Apparently the next 3 units are nearly finished and will be undergoing testing and preliminary burn-in this weekend, ready for shipping...so, soon folks, soon...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That's right, Lukasz sent me an email today telling me my elise will most likely be ready for the 13/14th so one of those is my unit 
  
 Really excited!


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> That's right, Lukasz sent me an email today telling me my elise will most likely be ready for the 13/14th so one of those is my unit
> 
> Really excited!


 
  
 Ditto, *R!*   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Renderman

Thanks Hypnos1! It's nice to have someone to share the wait with, those beers are on me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Also pre-ordered the new Fiio X3 second generation, should be delivered next week as well and will also receive my Philips SHP9500 headphones so, it should be a very interesting week. Good thing I got few days off from work 
  
 I will let everybody here know as soon as i receive the Elise ofcourse!


----------



## Acapella11

For all those considering to attend the Cambridge Head-Fi meet and wanting to try the Elise, this may come very handy:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/748039/uk-2015-head-fi-meet-cambridge-saturday-25th-april/720#post_11502239
  
 I was writing Lukasz about this meet. Really good contribution.


----------



## smial1966

Lukasz did not donate the Elise, I did, but he was very supportive of having the amp available for demo purposes at the meet.




acapella11 said:


> For all those considering to attend the Cambridge Head-Fi meet and wanting to try the Elise, this may come very handy:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/748039/uk-2015-head-fi-meet-cambridge-saturday-25th-april/720#post_11502239
> 
> I was writing Lukasz about this meet. Really good contribution.


----------



## MIKELAP

Hope to see pictures of the meet .


----------



## Acapella11

smial1966 said:


> Lukasz did not donate the Elise, I did, but he was very supportive of having the amp available for demo purposes at the meet.




Excellent job of yours *thumbs up*


----------



## Shaffer

Is it just me, or is the Elise gone from Feliks' website? I sent Lucasz two emails requesting a paypal invoice for an Elise and have not heard back.


----------



## smial1966

Still there alright. You need to look at the Feliks website English language version - click on British flag top right on website - then click on the Elise photo for a description and ordering options. 




shaffer said:


> Is it just me, or is the Elise gone from Feliks' website? I sent Lucasz two emails requesting a paypal invoice for an Elise and have not heard back.


----------



## Shaffer

smial1966 said:


> Still there alright. You need to look at the Feliks website English language version - click on British flag top right on website - then click on the Elise photo for a description and ordering options.




[blush] Thanks! That was a little embarrassing. [/blush]

I guess I'll just wait for Lucasz's Paypal invoice.


----------



## Shaffer

Just heard from Lucasz and paid for my Elise. So excited!!


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Just heard from Lucasz and paid for my Elise. So excited!!


 
 Yes, the same for me. Lukasz emailed me today and sent an invoice, the Elise is paid for and hopfully it will be here soon!


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> Just heard from Lucasz and paid for my Elise. So excited!!


 
  
 Welcome to the club *S*...well done!!


----------



## hypnos1

smial1966 said:


> Lukasz did not donate the Elise, I did, but he was very supportive of having the amp available for demo purposes at the meet.


 
  
 NICE ONE smial1966...now there's a surprise, lol!
  
 Roll on 25th.


----------



## smial1966

The Elise on demo at the meet will have the supplied valve/tube configuration and won't be `burnt in' yet, so it'll be interesting to compare the sound with hypnos1 unit.  
  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> NICE ONE smial1966...now there's a surprise, lol!
> 
> Roll on 25th.


----------



## Shaffer

H1, just saw your post in the LD thread. So C3s work in the Elise? I thought I'd read something about the amp needing a mod for C3. No?

I also wanted to ask you about 7N7s. How do you like them next to the 6SN7s? Certainly a lot of reasonably priced NOS 7N7s out there.


----------



## Renderman

According to the tracking information the Elise should arrive here tomorrow! I will try her out over the weekend and report back here 
  
 In addition to the RCA JAN 6SN7-GT from 1967 i've also found some Foton 6N8S from 1965, i could not find much information on this tube but some report a sound akin to the highly regarded Melz 6N8S, the construction seems similar. They were quite inexpensive and i'm excited about trying these out in the Elise.


----------



## Shaffer

Congratulations! Can't wait to hear your impressions. I have a feeling that mine will ship in a couple of weeks.

BTW, I picked up a pair of Fotons, as well. Hoping for the best....


----------



## Renderman

Thank you 


shaffer said:


> Congratulations! Can't wait to hear your impressions. I have a feeling that mine will ship in a couple of weeks.
> 
> BTW, I picked up a pair of Fotons, as well. Hoping for the best....


 
 Thank you Shaffer! I hope to be able to listen to the Elise this Saturday and while a more substantial review might take some time I will try and share my initial impressions this weekend.
 Great to hear you also found your way to the Fotons, we can compare notes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Might this be a sleeper tube that pairs well with the Elise at a nice price/performance ratio?
  
 Do you know your model number? (Mine is 004 and i believe 004, 005 and 006 were produced in this batch, who will get 007? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> H1, just saw your post in the LD thread. So C3s work in the Elise? I thought I'd read something about the amp needing a mod for C3. No?
> 
> I also wanted to ask you about 7N7s. How do you like them next to the 6SN7s? Certainly a lot of reasonably priced NOS 7N7s out there.


 
  
 Hi Shaffer.
  
 Although the Elise is not configured for the C3g, luckily my experimenting with adapters over with the guys at LD Rolling (and advice from Glenn) helped me make some that actually work, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
 And even _more_ luckily/surprising they perform wonderfully...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 As for 7N7s I personally preferred them (short-bottle and tall-bottle 'chrome domes') to a couple of VT231s I had...and they do seem to be well-regarded generally...But of course they do need adapters...
  


renderman said:


> According to the tracking information the Elise should arrive here tomorrow! I will try her out over the weekend and report back here
> 
> In addition to the RCA JAN 6SN7-GT from 1967 i've also found some Foton 6N8S from 1965, i could not find much information on this tube but some report a sound akin to the highly regarded Melz 6N8S, the construction seems similar. They were quite inexpensive and i'm excited about trying these out in the Elise.


 
  
 Good news, *R*...you should be in for a nice weekend! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And it will be interesting to see what those Fotons do for her...
  
 Cheers! 
  
 ps. I thought this batch were 110/120V - you are sure yours is 220/240V?!!!


----------



## Renderman

> Good news, *R*...you should be in for a nice weekend!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thank you Hypnos! I am waiting in anticipation!  Yeah i'm also quite curious about those fotons.
  
 ps. I don't know what batch has what voltage however, Lukasz knows I'm in holland so they better have sent me a 220/240V version!


----------



## Renderman

*She Arrived!*​ In 230V version to put Hypnos1's mind at ease.​  ​  


hypnos1 said:


> ps. I thought this batch were 110/120V - you are sure yours is 220/240V?!!!


----------



## SonicTrance

renderman said:


> *She Arrived!*​ In 230V version to put Hypnos1's mind at ease.​  ​


 
 Pics or it didn't happen


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> *She Arrived!*​ In 230V version to put Hypnos1's mind at ease.​  ​


 
  
 YIPPEE!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (and thank God the Feliks guys know their countries' voltages, lol!!)...
  
 Hope you don't intend getting any sleep this weekend, *R...*


----------



## hypnos1

Oops...wrong thread!!


----------



## Renderman

Unfortunately I have quite a busy weekend and won't be able to take pictures at the moment but I hope to have some for you soon. I did manage to spend some hours with Elise today. I will however have a go at sharing some preliminary impressions (as i'm sure many of you are curious about this).
  
 Listening to the Elise through my Beyerdynamic T1 headphones what was quite noticable to me was that the Elise has not much of a sonic signature all (This is a compliment). On the whole it is very balanced with an ever so slight elevation in bass response and euphonic character. To my ears this is very pleasant. Although the bass is slightly elevated it is never loose, smeared or fuzzy. The presented bass is dry and punchy and the highs have a silky smoothness that I like in a good tube amplifier.
  
 Only had time to quickly try the RCA 6080 tubes, they sounded remarkably similar except for the soundstage which was wider and deeper.
  
 The next tube change will be the Sylvania 6080WC as power tubes, after that I will experiment with Foton 6N8S and RCA 6SN7 Grey glass as driver tubes.
  
 For now, back to enjoying the music!
  
 Mike


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Unfortunately I have quite a busy weekend and won't be able to take pictures at the moment but I hope to have some for you soon. I did manage to spend some hours with Elise today. I will however have a go at sharing some preliminary impressions (as i'm sure many of you are curious about this).
> 
> Listening to the Elise through my Beyerdynamic T1 headphones what was quite noticable to me was that the Elise has not much of a sonic signature all (This is a compliment). On the whole it is very balanced with an ever so slight elevation in bass response and euphonic character. To my ears this is very pleasant. Although the bass is slightly elevated it is never loose, smeared or fuzzy. The presented bass is dry and punchy and the highs have a silky smoothness that I like in a good tube amplifier.
> 
> ...




Thank you so much for taking the time to share your impressions. Can't wait to get mine!

Incidentally, we have the same sets of tubes. What have I been doing, while waiting for the amp? Buying tubes, of course!


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Thank you so much for taking the time to share your impressions. Can't wait to get mine!
> 
> Incidentally, we have the same sets of tubes. What have I been doing, while waiting for the amp? Buying tubes, of course!


 
 You're welcome Shaffer, I hope to have a more complete review soon but I need more time with her.
  
 Is it coincidental you have the same tubes or did you follow my lead? I think this is great, now we can compare notes and hopefully it will help others in their choice of tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> You're welcome Shaffer, I hope to have a more complete review soon but I need more time with her.
> 
> Is it coincidental you have the same tubes or did you follow my lead? I think this is great, now we can compare notes and hopefully it will help others in their choice of tubes.




All by myself. I have more, too, but I did follow H1's lead by getting 7N7s and the adapters.


----------



## Renderman

Cool! I would be very interested in how those 7n7's perform.


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> Unfortunately I have quite a busy weekend and won't be able to take pictures at the moment but I hope to have some for you soon. I did manage to spend some hours with Elise today. I will however have a go at sharing some preliminary impressions (as i'm sure many of you are curious about this).
> 
> Listening to the Elise through my Beyerdynamic T1 headphones what was quite noticable to me was that the Elise has not much of a sonic signature all (This is a compliment). On the whole it is very balanced with an ever so slight elevation in bass response and euphonic character. To my ears this is very pleasant. Although the bass is slightly elevated it is never loose, smeared or fuzzy. The presented bass is dry and punchy and the highs have a silky smoothness that I like in a good tube amplifier.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Mike.
  
 Am glad your amp arrived safe and sound, and that you seem to be liking her already...and thanks for your first impressions - yes indeed, a nicely neutral "signature" veering _very_ slightly on the warm side with further burn-in, which I personally think is preferable to the opposite...especially for cans such as our T1s and the HD800s. Of course, the wonderful range of 6SN7s (+ 7N7s!) and 6AS7G/6080s will enable fine tuning to either side of 'base'...the whole original idea behind the birth of the Elise! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Hope you got back to even more enjoyable music - which can only get even _more_ so with further burn-in of course! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 CHEERS!!
  
 CJ
  
  


shaffer said:


> All by myself. I have more, too, but I did follow H1's lead by getting 7N7s and the adapters.


 
  
 Well done Shaffer...can't wait for your impressions either...(now I am also in eager anticipation for YOUR arrival, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> All by myself. I have more, too, but I did follow H1's lead by getting 7N7s and the adapters.


 
  
 Nearly all 7N7s were manufactured by Sylvania and sound very similar to the heavily chromed short-bottle 6SN7GTA. However, some 7N7's were manufactured by National Union, but these are less common. For the most part, if it has a chrome top, clear or smoked glass, it is a Sylvania, regardless of the brand name silk-screened on the tube. Otherwise, it is an NU.


----------



## Shaffer

Just got an email from Lukasz. My Elise should be shipping tomorrow.


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> Just got an email from Lukasz. My Elise should be shipping tomorrow.


 
  
 Good news Shaffer....let's hope she arrives safe and sound...


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Just got an email from Lukasz. My Elise should be shipping tomorrow.


 
 I'm glad to hear that Shaffer! Hopefully it will arrive swiftly and in perfect working order!
  
 Try to keep that excitement in check!


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> I'm glad to hear that Shaffer! Hopefully it will arrive swiftly and in perfect working order!
> 
> *Try to keep that excitement in check! *




It's hard. 

Looked at the tracking; the amp is on its way.

BTW, supposedly another amp was shipped to the US this week. Anyone here?


----------



## Renderman

I am not sure who else in the US would have ordered an Elise.
  
 I do know and i am sorry to say I will be shipping my Elise back to Feliks audio. There Is a loud noise in the right channel when i turn it off. Feliks audio have promised to take a hard look at it and i'm sure it will be fixed.
  
 I will also be sending them an extra set of tubes (RCA 6SN7-GT 1967 and Sylvania 6080WC) so they can listen to and measure those as well, hopefully this way we can both benefit from this.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Sounds like a loosed connections/bad solder.


----------



## Renderman

Yep, my thoughts exactly, something might have gotten loose during transport. Hopefully it is an easy fix and I will get her back as good as new


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Hopefully nothing major.


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> Yep, my thoughts exactly, something might have gotten loose during transport. Hopefully it is an easy fix and I will get her back as good as new


 
  
 Hi R.
  
 So sorry to hear of your disappointing experience...I too hope there is a simple explanation and that she is back in your clutches very soon.
  
 Be assured I shall expect Lukasz to sort this promptly and satisfactorily, which I am sure will be the case...
  
 (In all honesty _I_ am the one who expected the odd gremlin or two, given I had the prototype basically!! Early adopters of new products do often pave the way for others, non?!...- but once again I am really sorry for you...).
  
 Best wishes,
 C J
  
 ps. Will be giving the demo unit at the Cambridge meet a REAL good going over!


----------



## Renderman

Thanks Iluvmusic, CJ,


> Originally Posted by *Hypnos1*
> ps. Will be giving the demo unit at the Cambridge meet a REAL good going over!


 
 I really wish i could have been there! I will be following the coverage very closely. Really curious what others will think of the Elises. Enjoy the meet!


----------



## hypnos1

Well folks, have just about recovered from the day's outing to the Cambridge meet - and it sure does take me longer to 'recover' these days lol!
  
 Had a great time though - as did a good many others...it was very busy (and noisy!...which unfortunately is not very conducive to serious listening - with open cans anyway). But it was great to meet up with some previously faceless members - Acapella11, tjw321 and Nic Rhodes, plus others I hadn't yet come across....great guys all!
  
 Smial1966 and pedalhead did a great job - no small venture to organise, I suspect. And a big thanks must go to them...
  
 Sad to say, they weren't able to set up the demo Elise  - the demo table seemed somewhat hectic and troubled with gremlins, so time ran out (especially as it had to be packed up early to go in the raffle). So I was rather disappointed...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...But she was in fact won by a member who had actually shown quite an interest in mine, so I'm sure that made his day. I only hope he does in fact like it and posts his findings here...hopefully without any glitches to report!!
  
 Although conditions were far from perfect to show my amp to its best, she was liked by a good few (time and ancillary equipment were unfortunately in short supply) but hopefully some impressions will emerge. A11 will surely give his initial findings using his HD800s and I think tjw may well have fallen in love with my T1s especially - hopefully in combination with the Elise! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
*GOOD NEWS* for low impedance headphones - she drove the Audeze LCD2s with ease, so hopefully there should be no worries at all on that score. So even if I failed in other goals, hopefully this makes up for my shortcomings. (I only wish I could have tried the XCs however - they sure did sound - and look - nice in A11's Questyle current mode amp. But would be just a bit too heavy (in physical weight that is!) for my liking...).
  
 So it looks like we shall have to wait for the next few recipients of the Elise to get some in-depth reviews, I'm afraid...
  
 Just a couple of pics from the meet...
  

  
 Something to drool over?...Blue Hawaii Electrostatic - lots of people hovering at this table...couldn't get a look (listen) in!
  

  
 A bit more down-to-Earth...but still some money's worth!...just _some_ of Nic Rhodes's gear!! I must take my hat off to Nic for his dedication to this hobby, not to mention his knowledge, experience and willingness to share this with everyone else in head-fi land. CHEERS Nic!
  

  
 Yours truly (middle) with from left to right, Nic, tjw321, Acapella11 and pal Alex (who also has an Elise in fact).
  
 So the next meet is a bigger one in August - CanJam, London - but unfortunately shan't be able to make it (don't know if I could take the pace anyway, lol!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## tjw321

hypnos1 said:


> ...
> 
> Although conditions were far from perfect to show my amp to its best, she was liked by a good few (time and ancillary equipment were unfortunately in short supply) but hopefully some impressions will emerge. A11 will surely give his initial findings using his HD800s and I think tjw may well have fallen in love with my T1s especially - hopefully in combination with the Elise!
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for bringing the Elise and the T1s along. They were the pieces of gear that I wanted to hear most and, thanks to you, I managed to hear them both, and together, what's more!
  
 I really enjoyed our little Questyle/Elise comparison session, as captured in your photo. As you say, Nic, Acappella11 and Alex are all really nice guys (and yourself, of course!) - welcoming and very tolerant of my relative noobness!
  
 I'm sure that there will be both an Elise and a pair of T1s in my future. It was a little noisy for critical listening at the meet, but that little piece of the 1812 I caught during the lunch lull was the most glorious sound I have ever heard! And that was when we were still using my little X3 as a source. Now I just need a new job to afford them. Actually, I liked some of the Audeze range as well and a lot of Nic's gear - better make that two jobs! I'm just glad that I avoided listening to the really expensive stuff...


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> Well folks, have just about recovered from the day's outing to the Cambridge meet - and it sure does take me longer to 'recover' these days lol!
> 
> Had a great time though - as did a good many others...it was very busy (and noisy!...which unfortunately is not very conducive to serious listening - with open cans anyway). But it was great to meet up with some previously faceless members - Acapella11, tjw321 and Nic Rhodes, plus others I hadn't yet come across....great guys all!
> 
> ...


 
 Always nice to put a face on our headfi buddy's nice to meet you guys .


----------



## Acapella11

Hi Hypnos1, tjw321, Nic and everyone else
  
 Thanks H1 to write this nice report. You should, in fact post it on the UK Meet page, too =)
  
 It was great meeting you all in person, I thoroughly enjoyed it!
  
 OK, back to topic, Elise:
  
 The Elise was slightly warm, probably a tint warmer than the LD MKIV, even with the C3Gs and that tint fit well with T1 and HD800.
 It is rather a bit on the lusher side and with an addictive signature .
 Critical listening is never easy in a meet environment, so take it with a grain of salt. Because the T1-stage is larger and maybe because of the greater impedance, the Elise favoured to me the T1, but it was also a signature match with the HD800s. I found the bass response, for quantity and impact, quite impressive for that little amp (with the HD800). That was a clear notch over the LD, and it really delivered a nice ambiance, detail and a non-fatiguing, very enjoyble treble.
 The amp is brilliant for that prize point!


----------



## glassmonkey

Hello Hypnos1 and everybody! I'm the lucky guy who won the Elise in the raffle. I've now gotten it home today installed the tubes and powered her up, but I'm having a problem. I get some hum when there is no sound, but I'm reading this is normal, so not a problem, though when listening to the hum there are sometimes blips and glass tap kinds of noises that change in character, so maybe still a problem. There are a couple things that I can't figure out. I'll email Lukasz tomorrow and see what he says.
  
 1. If I hook my DX50 to the back and play music with the volume turned all the way down on the Elise, music comes out, and it sounds relatively clean but really quiet, same with the Geek Out 1000.
 2. If I turn the volume up, the hum increases, but the volume of the music doesn't.
  
 I've made sure the tubes are in their sockets right and my RCAs are well connected, but I can't figure out what is causing this hum and lack of ability to change music volume. Neither of the DACs I'm sending music out from have true line-outs, but I've done the standard thing and maxed out the volume from the source to emulate line-out.


----------



## gibosi

glassmonkey said:


> Hello Hypnos1 and everybody! I'm the lucky guy who won the Elise in the raffle. I've now gotten it home today installed the tubes and powered her up, but I'm having a problem. I get some hum when there is no sound, but I'm reading this is normal, so not a problem, though when listening to the hum there are sometimes blips and glass tap kinds of noises that change in character, so maybe still a problem. There are a couple things that I can't figure out. I'll email Lukasz tomorrow and see what he says.
> 
> 1. If I hook my DX50 to the back and play music with the volume turned all the way down on the Elise, music comes out, and it sounds relatively clean but really quiet, same with the Geek Out 1000.
> 2. If I turn the volume up, the hum increases, but the volume of the music doesn't.
> ...


 
  
 It is quite normal for new tubes to hum and buzz. Give them some time. Let them cook for 20 hours. In fact, some recommend 50 or more. They will likely quiet down nicely as the Russian tubes, which I assume are those provided with the amp, tend to be quieter than most.
  
 As to your other problem, it seems to me that it would be best if you can find a source with proper Line outs to see if the problem persists.


----------



## hypnos1

glassmonkey said:


> Hello Hypnos1 and everybody! I'm the lucky guy who won the Elise in the raffle. I've now gotten it home today installed the tubes and powered her up, but I'm having a problem. I get some hum when there is no sound, but I'm reading this is normal, so not a problem, though when listening to the hum there are sometimes blips and glass tap kinds of noises that change in character, so maybe still a problem. There are a couple things that I can't figure out. I'll email Lukasz tomorrow and see what he says.
> 
> 1. If I hook my DX50 to the back and play music with the volume turned all the way down on the Elise, music comes out, and it sounds relatively clean but really quiet, same with the Geek Out 1000.
> 2. If I turn the volume up, the hum increases, but the volume of the music doesn't.
> ...


 
  
 Hi glassmonkey.
  
 Congrats on winning the Elise...now we just have to see what's going on!
  
 Can't really add much to what gibosi has said...mine does indeed hum a little at first, but disappears completely when the signal cuts in. It certainly sounds like you just aren't getting a proper line in signal - hopefully you can find/beg/steal/borrow something suitable! (Don't mean to insult you mon ami, but you are using the correct RCA sockets?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).
  
 I'm sure there is a fairly simple explanation for this...and whatever it is, it will get sorted in the end.
  
 Here's hoping for a speedy recovery!
  
 Cheers for now.


----------



## glassmonkey

hypnos1 said:


> Hi glassmonkey.
> 
> Congrats on winning the Elise...now we just have to see what's going on!
> 
> ...


 
  
 I'm looking into borrowing or buying a dac. My Geek Pulse XFi will come someday (hopefully soon, and I don't want to invest in another Dac when that is on it's way. I had the RCA ends plugged into the rightmost RCAs, the one's labeled input (I think). I did get sound out of it, so it must have been the right one. 
  
 The Elise didn't come with a manual. Are the other RCAs for using the amp as a pre-amp? I don't expect that it can drive bookshelf size speakers.


----------



## hypnos1

glassmonkey said:


> I'm looking into borrowing or buying a dac. My Geek Pulse XFi will come someday (hopefully soon, and I don't want to invest in another Dac when that is on it's way. I had the RCA ends plugged into the rightmost RCAs, the one's labeled input (I think). I did get sound out of it, so it must have been the right one.
> 
> The Elise didn't come with a manual. Are the other RCAs for using the amp as a pre-amp? I don't expect that it can drive bookshelf size speakers.


 
  
 Hi again gm.
  
 Sure is gonna be interesting to see how the Pulses perform - hope you don't have _too_ long a wait!
  
 Yep, the vertical RCAs are as pre-amp use (and boy, does it work wonders for my Vincent SS amp!!)...but first we've got to have other things sorted - hope you manage to borrow the necessary soon (you have no amp/tuner/receiver with normal RCA line outs?...).
  
 This certainly is a strange one, as anything like volume pot troubles I should have thought would be obvious when undergoing pre-delivery  testing and burn-in...all will be revealed soon enough, I'm sure...


----------



## glassmonkey

I have a feeling it's the lack of a true line out on both the Geek Out 1000 and the DX50. I don't have a desktop DAC yet. The DX-50 has a coax digital out. I'm going to see if using a £8 dac that is just designed to convert coax and toslink to RCA will work with the amp.
  
 Fingers crossed.


----------



## glassmonkey

Thanks hypnos1 for sharing your Elise at the meet! It made my decision much easier in the raffle. This is a beautiful amp. I hope I don't have to wait too long to hear it's beautiful sounds again.


----------



## hypnos1

glassmonkey said:


> Thanks hypnos1 for sharing your Elise at the meet! It made my decision much easier in the raffle. This is a beautiful amp. I hope I don't have to wait too long to hear it's beautiful sounds again.


 
  
 Glad you liked it...her sister was obviously waiting for you in the raffle - lucky you! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Yes indeed, let's hope it's not too long...I (and others) am (are) looking forward to some in-depth impressions, lol!!


----------



## Shaffer

My Elise arrived today! Very fast shipping. It's absolutely beautiful. Lukasz was even kind enough to send along a set of Tung-Sols. Thank you.

BTW, my s/n is 007!


----------



## Renderman

Whoa great news! I was wondering who would get 007!  Congratz Shaffer, I am very curious about your impressions!


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Whoa great news! I was wondering who would get 007!  Congratz Shaffer, I am very curious about your impressions!




So far, so good. I found the amp to be somewhat sensitive to interconnects; the "wrong" one allows for a buzz. I listened to the Russian 6AS7s for about an hour, I know that's not long enough, and replaced them with a pair of NOS Chathams. I'm very happy with what I hear. Give me a week or so for a better set of impressions.


----------



## Renderman

Sure! Take your time  Thank you for your initial impressions. Btw, I was keen to try out my other tubes too, hehe. Happy listening!


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> So far, so good. I found the amp to be somewhat sensitive to interconnects; the "wrong" one allows for a buzz. I listened to the Russian 6AS7s for about an hour, I know that's not long enough, and replaced them with a pair of NOS Chathams. I'm very happy with what I hear. Give me a week or so for a better set of impressions.


 
  
 Hi Shaffer.
  
 So glad your amp arrived quickly, in good condition and not "b(B!)onded" by Customs, lol...sorry! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Glad also you like her already - I applaud your choice of Chathams, and with a good few more hours' burn-in I'm sure you will be EXTREMELY happy!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...I (we all) look forward to your later findings...
  
 CHEERS!


----------



## hypnos1

Have finally got my gear back together after the meet (a good opportunity to clear the cobwebs/dust etc. from the spaghetti! Not to mention setting up the TT for a bit of nostalgia - even if the T1s will prove merciless with surface noise, lol!!).
  
 And boy, I'd almost forgotten just how good the sound is now - powered from a conditioned/filtered mains (complete with unswitched wall socket and upgraded fuses - I know, I know! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) and fed by the Audiolab's ESS Sabre DAC she is MUCH happier than at the meet (as am I!!). Of course the meet environment is far from ideal for serious listening, but the difference is far greater than I would have imagined - I have fallen in love all over again! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Especially as I am listening to some marvellous hi-res tracks on the HDTracks samplers 2013 and 2015 (free!). If you get the chance I can highly recommend these for seeing just what the Elise can do - they cover most musical tastes. The guitar work, piano, sax, trumpet, double bass and voices (both male and female) especially are some of the best sounds I have ever heard - this amp sure does like hi-res signals...but please, if you can, treat her to the best signal you can manage, not to mention headphones of course 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Shaffer

The Elise, in many ways, reminds me of modern high-performance tube amps like ARC's Ref150. The sound isn't tubey in a classic 50s-60s definition of the term - no bloated, rolled-off bass, very extended on top, fast, exciting sounding with almost startling transient response, and _no grain_. The bass, in particular, is extremely impressive. It extends as deep as my Krell and has almost the same degree of control. From tubes. Unbelievable. This is not a $500 amplifier. It's worth far more. The fit and finish, alone, speaks of a bespoke product. Not a single rough edge or a fastener in sight. If I had to guess, as one who worked in the high-performance sector of the industry, this amp should retail for about $2K.

... more to come in a week or so.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> The Elise, in many ways, reminds me of modern high-performance tube amps like ARC's Ref150. The sound isn't tubey in a classic 50s-60s definition of the term - no bloated, rolled-off bass, very extended on top, fast, exciting sounding with almost startling transient response, and _no grain_. The bass, in particular, is extremely impressive. It extends as deep as my Krell and has almost the same degree of control. From tubes. Unbelievable. This is not a $500 amplifier. It's worth far more. The fit and finish, alone, speaks of a bespoke product. Not a single rough edge or a fastener in sight. If I had to guess, as one who worked in the high-performance sector of the industry, this amp should retail for about $2K.
> 
> ... more to come in a week or so.


 
 Wow! Such praise for the modest Elise! I'm really glad you like yours, what cans do you mostly listen with on the Elise? To my (and presumably also Hypnos1's ears) paired with Beyerdynamic T1's sounds absolutely beautiful! I would imagine other Beyerdynamic headphones would have a similar synergy.
  
 Very nice to read all the positive reactions on the Elise, hopefully many will have the pleasure of enjoying her sweet sounds.
  
 Enjoy Shaffer! I wish you many more hours of musical bliss.


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Wow! Such praise for the modest Elise! I'm really glad you like yours, what cans do you mostly listen with on the Elise? To my (and presumably also Hypnos1's ears) paired with Beyerdynamic T1's sounds absolutely beautiful! I would imagine other Beyerdynamic headphones would have a similar synergy.
> 
> Very nice to read all the positive reactions on the Elise, hopefully many will have the pleasure of enjoying her sweet sounds.
> 
> Enjoy Shaffer! I wish you many more hours of musical bliss.




I mostly stick to bass-modded K702 and HD600 (which act as my tube amp reference) with the Elise. I did try my Beyers - DT990 and DT880/600 - and preferred them with the Violectric V200. So far, not that it's been so long, I really like the K702 with the amp. To be perfectly honest, the T1 is on my list of future purchases. There's another amp I'm interested in, and then the T1.


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> The Elise, in many ways, reminds me of modern high-performance tube amps like ARC's Ref150. The sound isn't tubey in a classic 50s-60s definition of the term - no bloated, rolled-off bass, very extended on top, fast, exciting sounding with almost startling transient response, and _no grain_. The bass, in particular, is extremely impressive. It extends as deep as my Krell and has almost the same degree of control. From tubes. Unbelievable. This is not a $500 amplifier. It's worth far more. The fit and finish, alone, speaks of a bespoke product. Not a single rough edge or a fastener in sight. If I had to guess, as one who worked in the high-performance sector of the industry, this amp should retail for about $2K.
> 
> ... more to come in a week or so.


 
  
 Hi Shaffer.
  
 Wow indeed!  Many thanks for your honest appraisal, and from someone with obviously far more knowledge and experience than myself in this field - I am so glad I haven't been deluding myself (and others!) all this time. And am so glad you are obviously enjoying immensely this VERY modestly-priced offering.
  
 I look forward to later impressions when things have burned in even more...
  
 I wish you continued happy listening...have a GREAT weekend!
  
 CHEERS


----------



## Lorspeaker

Shaffer's impression is gonna damn alot alot of wallets..arrrghhh.
  
 ok Tyll has picked up the scent on the dt150...check out this amazing can.
post #936


----------



## smial1966

Thanks for that link (below) as the DT150 had bypassed my radar too, but I've just bagged a pair from Amazon for under £100 delivered. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Quote:


lorspeaker said:


> Shaffer's impression is gonna damn alot alot of wallets..arrrghhh.
> 
> ok Tyll has picked up the scent on the dt150...check out this amazing can.
> post #936


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> Shaffer's impression is gonna damn alot alot of wallets..arrrghhh.
> 
> ok Tyll has picked up the scent on the dt150...check out this amazing can.
> post #936


 
  
 Methinks it's gonna damn alota wallets rather more before too long - we early adopters are definitely getting a discounted product, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Shaffer

hypnos1 said:


> Methinks it's gonna damn alota wallets rather more before too long - we early adopters are definitely getting a discounted product, lol! :wink_face: ...




I heard from Lukasz earlier today. He hinted at the price being an introductory offer.

Edit: I think we should start referring to each other by our double-o names - ie. our respective serial numbers. You're 001. I'm (proud to say) 007.


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> I heard from Lukasz earlier today. He hinted at the price being an introductory offer.
> 
> Edit: I think we should start referring to each other by our double-o names - ie. our respective serial numbers. You're 001. I'm (proud to say) 007.


 
  
 001 to 007...M hopes those who have been tailing us for some time push the button fairly soon then... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 This message will self-destruct in....oops, wrong mission!!


----------



## Shaffer

hypnos1 said:


> 001 to 007..*.M hopes those who have been tailing us for some time push the button fairly soon then*...  ...
> 
> This message will self-destruct in....oops, wrong mission!!




One would be smart to order an Elise now, before the price goes up. Each and every one is made by hand to order. The $500 cost is almost silly, given the sound quality.


----------



## Acapella11

shaffer said:


> So far, so good. I found the amp to be somewhat sensitive to interconnects; the "wrong" one allows for a buzz. I listened to the Russian 6AS7s for about an hour, I know that's not long enough, and replaced them with a pair of NOS Chathams. I'm very happy with what I hear. Give me a week or so for a better set of impressions.




Great to hear your impressions Shaffer. Only listening at home gives a true reflection of SQ.
 Could you share your experience on sensitivity with respect to interconnects?


----------



## Shaffer

acapella11 said:


> Great to hear your impressions Shaffer. Only listening at home gives a true reflection of SQ.
> Could you share your experience on sensitivity with respect to interconnects?




Let me start out by saying that I live in a neighborhood heavily saturated with RFI. As I prefer analog and LOMC cartridges, as much as I hate it, I've had quite a bit of experience quieting things down. Unfortunately.

Tube products, in general, act as antennae in my home. All require a different level of massaging, if you will. The LDIII, for example, hummed a bit along with tuning in a local radio station. Playing with interconnects - I used a Chinese ribbon-type silver cable - got rid of the radio, and an alternate power cord fixed the hum. The same interconnect on the Elise produced a _loud _fuzz, for a lack of a better descriptor. I tried several other wires with mixed results and settled on a DHLabs cable, which made the amp sound funeral-quiet.


----------



## Shaffer

What tubes is everyone using?


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> What tubes is everyone using?


 
 Hi Shaffer!
  
 My favorite combination so far is the 1967 RCA JAN 6SN7-GT Grey Glass and the Sylvania 6080WC. This to me sounds very balanced with a wide sound stage, which I like a lot.
  
 Having said that, in my opinion the first and best upgrade one could do on the Elise is replace the driver tubes. The stock 6N13S tubes are actually quite good! I would suggest listening to the stock configuration first before replacing the driver tubes with some NOS RCA 6SN7-GT. That at least would be a good starting point and might satisfy quite a few people.


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 You made my day! Finally I found somebody who likes the Sylvania 6080 as power tubes. I am using them in my modded Little Dot MKIII, and found them better than the Chatham 6080 and 6AS7 (as well as a host of others).
  
 The ones I like are 6080WB, I also have  Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 tubes, but found the WB better. Also have a pair of Philips 6080WC - perhaps these are the same as the Sylvania 6080WC.
  
 (Oskari: I had to look up the spelling. Again.)


----------



## Renderman

Hi Mordy,
  
 It's nice to know i've made at least one person happy today... You make me curious about the 6080WB, could you elaborate a little more on what characteristics you like about the 6080(WB)?
  
 I have a Philips 6080WB that I like too but, that is only a single tube so not suited for stereo use on the Elise. What I like about those is the imaging and soundstage.
  
 Are you considering an Elise perhaps?


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Also have a pair of Philips 6080WC - perhaps these are the same as the Sylvania 6080WC.


 
  
 If Philips ECG, then yes, just later.
  


> (Oskari: I had to look up the spelling. Again.)


 
  
 Good job!


----------



## Lorspeaker

So the 6080s could be slotted in directly now?


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> You made my day! Finally I found somebody who likes the Sylvania 6080 as power tubes. I am using them in my modded Little Dot MKIII, and found them better than the Chatham 6080 and 6AS7 (as well as a host of others).
> 
> ...


 

 I saw these but they are WA are those the ones you have  Thanks.


----------



## mordy

Hi All,
  
 The Sylvania 6080 tubes I like are 6080WB from the early and mid 1960's. The Philips 6080WC ECG tubes are from the early 80's(!) - I guess an end of an era.
  
 The Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 tubes have no suffix, and I can't figure out the date codes: One tube is marked ECT CM and the other ECS AF. These date codes remind me of a Sylvania 12AU7 tube that I have that has the date code XYZ......
  
 They all look very similar except that my early 60's tubes have a gray plastic base instead of black. Perhaps looking for a gray plastic base will help you locate the ones I like the best if you want to try them.
  
 Now, about analyzing how they sound I have come to a stage where I am not bothered by anything;  I just enjoy the music. These tubes (with the C3g drivers) just sound right with very detailed and strong bass. Don't know why, perhaps because the C3g driver tubes are powerful enough to drive the LD MKIII by themselves , but I can switch off the heaters from the 6080 tubes (shutting down the external PS), and the amp still makes enough signal to work as a preamp with a ss amp, although not enough signal to drive the headphones. I just have to turn up the volume on the ss amp.
  
 This way I can directly compare the sound with the 6080 tubes working and without. Early on there was an opinion on this forum that power tubes contribute some 15% to the overall sound. This is not true IMHO. Using these 2.5A power tubes together with the driver tubes changes the entire sound picture. The best analogy I can come up with is a tepid soda pop that's flat without carbonation, and a cold one with all the fizz in it. Or, grape juice vs a good wine - you get the idea. It's totally different, and everything is affected.
  
 And yes, I am contemplating an Elise. The question I have is if it is going to be a quantum step above my current set-up. On the other hand, there is nothing so good that it couldn't be better.....
  
 Then there is the question if I should order an Elise made for C3g drivers instead of the 6SN7. This would exclude driver tube rolling but maybe the sound would be superior.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## Renderman

lorspeaker said:


> So the 6080s could be slotted in directly now?


 
 Lorspeaker, yes that's right! On my Elise the sockets are flush with the top cover so tubes with a wider base like the 6080 can be used directly.


----------



## Renderman

mikelap said:


> I saw these but they are WA are those the ones you have  Thanks.


 
 Hi Mikelap, those look similar to the ones I have but mine have a Light grey/beige base. The markings as seen on the tube are:
  
 JAN 6080WC
 SYLVANIA
 U.S.A. 82219
  
 The number (Date code?) from top to bottom reads 7539. And the letters ECF to the right of that.
  

  
 I hope this helps. would you like to try those tubes?


----------



## MIKELAP

renderman said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > I saw these but they are WA are those the ones you have  Thanks.
> ...


 
 oops!


----------



## mordy

Getting closer, but these tubes are from September 1975 and 6080WC. The ones I prefer are from the 60's and 6080 WB. Could be that the plastic color is not important, more important the year made.


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Getting closer, but these tubes are from September 1975 and 6080WC. The ones I prefer are from the 60's and 6080 WB. Could be that the plastic color is not important, more important the year made.


 
 Hi Mordy, you are right, built in 1975 and it seems the color of the plastic base is not a tell tale sign. I would like to try tubes similar to yours.
  
 As for drivers and C3g version of Elise, Hypnos1 is kind enough to make me a set of C3g adapters for the Elise. Once those are in my clutches I will report back here to let you know if it's worth to get a C3g version of the Elise in my opinion. I hope that will help you make your decision.
  
 Thanks for all the info so far, will keep an eye out for 60's 6080WBs!


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi All,
> 
> The Sylvania 6080 tubes I like are 6080WB from the early and mid 1960's. The Philips 6080WC ECG tubes are from the early 80's(!) - I guess an end of an era.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 I can fully understand your plight re. whether to take the plunge or not...I had to think long and hard before putting the suggestion to the Feliks guys - as you know I had pushed my LDMKIV SE pretty well to the limit with the C3gS/GEC CV2523 combo, and I do believe the SE is possibly a notch up from the MKIII!
  
 There are a good many factors to consider here - I shall try to put some of them into perspective...
  
 1. To get a _quantum_ leap up you would need to spend a GREAT deal more than $500, I suspect. However, the Elise is definitely in another league IMHO.
 2. Although our LDs are able to take the punishment of using these more 'exotic' tubes, I truly believe it is only a matter of time before something gives out - especially the MKIII that gets much hotter than the MKIV SE (and although you use a cooling fan, surely the components are still operating at a much higher temp. than spec...). And so looking to the long-term future, I wanted rather more security/safety. Plus even though our external PSUs and regulators do the trick, a proper dedicated PS is probably the better option...
 3. The aesthetic factor, which of course is a very personal thing - even though I had managed to hide the 'extras' fairly well, I still wanted something neater.
 4. Other elements of the set-up will also, naturally, come into play. Source upgrades I feel benefit the Elise more than the LDs, but more so headphone upgrade. Although, for example, the HD650s up their game accordingly, the improvement is much more dramatic with the likes of the Beyer T1s or HD800s. So this does of course bring in the extra cost factor - but again looking to the long-term can help in such decisions (I myself never thought I would spend more on HPs than the amp, but boy have I learned a lesson...I wish I'd done it sooner!).
 5. How much further experimentlng with different tubes in the LD is anticipated...BOTH could be an option also!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...
  
 I'm sure there are other factors to consider, but I think this post is long enough already!
  
 I wish you all the best in your deliberations mordy - and probably a few more peoples' impressions would be very helpful also...
  
 ps. I have a feeling it could be a long while before Lukasz would even reconsider the solely C3g configuration...it's still relatively early days in original remit production after all!
  
 CHEERS  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 CJ
  
 Edit. pps...I also REALLY like how the Elise's case AND trafo housing get just barely warm!!


----------



## gibosi

renderman said:


> As for drivers and C3g version of Elise, Hypnos1 is kind enough to make me a set of C3g adapters for the Elise. Once those are in my clutches I will report back here to let you know if it's worth to get a C3g version of the Elise in my opinion. I hope that will help you make your decision.


 
  
 It is important to remember that H1's adapters are adapting a single triode-strapped C3g to a double triode 6SN7 socket and circuitry. Circuitry designed to use one 6SN7 per channel is very different than that for a single triode-strapped C3g. While H1 was able to take advantage of a few suggestions suggested by Glenn, using C3gs with his adapters in a 6SN7 Elise will not be the same as using C3gs in a properly designed "C3g Elise" should this option become available. Now, I am not going to go so far as to assert that the C3g Elise will sound better. But there is no doubt in my mind that it will sound different.


----------



## Shaffer

Mordy, I have a LDIII with 6HM5s and 6SN7s. The Elise is in a totally different league. In comparison, the LDIII sounds hazy, opaque, slow, diffuse, and lacking focus. The LDIII's mid-bass is plump, although powerful, but there's no real extension. In terms of clarity, the difference is even greater.


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 I did try the tube combination that you mentioned you are using in the LD MKIII, but using the MKIII with C3g drivers and 2.5A power tubes brings it up several levels. Only Hypnos has been able to compare this set up to the Elise, and he feels that the Elise is much better.
  
 Hypnos substituted the 6SN7 driver tubes in the Elise for C3g tubes, and felt that the performance got even better. So the question is if an Elise optimized for C3g tubes would sound even better - maybe Lukasz can weigh in on this.


----------



## 2359glenn

At some point I might start making C3g adapters for the Elise not enough out there yet to make it worth my while.
 I have already started making them for the WA-5 with good results.


----------



## mordy

Sounds very interesting!
  
 In your opinion, would an amp like the Elise, specially biased for C3g tubes,sound significantly better than using C3g tubes with adapters with the original 6SN7 bias? Does it really make a difference?


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> It is important to remember that H1's adapters are adapting a single triode-strapped C3g to a double triode 6SN7 socket and circuitry. Circuitry designed to use one 6SN7 per channel is very different than that for a single triode-strapped C3g. While H1 was able to take advantage of a few suggestions suggested by Glenn, using C3gs with his adapters in a 6SN7 Elise will not be the same as using C3gs in a properly designed "C3g Elise" should this option become available. Now, I am not going to go so far as to assert that the C3g Elise will sound better. But there is no doubt in my mind that it will sound different.


 
  
  


mordy said:


> Sounds very interesting!
> 
> In your opinion, would an amp like the Elise, specially biased for C3g tubes,sound significantly better than using C3g tubes with adapters with the original 6SN7 bias? Does it really make a difference?


 
  
 Hi guys.
  
 All I can say, in all honesty, is that if a specifically C3g-configured Elise were to sound better than my (pure silver wire) adapted C3gSs, then it most certainly WOULD be Shaffer's $2K machine, lol!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 (Happy days are here still...)


----------



## gibosi

Or you can have Glenn custom build a C3g OTL for considerably less than $2k.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Or you can have Glenn custom build a C3g OTL for considerably less than $2k.




What does the amp cost? It looks great.


----------



## 2359glenn

shaffer said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > Or you can have Glenn custom build a C3g OTL for considerably less than $2k.
> ...


 

 Basic amp $650
 The one you see has the C3g mod - 6SN7,12SN7,25SN7 mod- 5998 mod these mods are $100 each.


----------



## SonicTrance

2359glenn said:


> At some point I might start making C3g adapters for the Elise not enough out there yet to make it worth my while.
> I have already started making them for the WA-5 with good results.


 
 Would't it be the same exact adapters for the Elise and WA-5 as both use 6SN7's?


----------



## hypnos1

The Glenn amp sure looks nice...but what is a realistic time frame? - the Elise (admittedly not C3g) is 4 to 5 weeks...


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> The Glenn amp sure looks nice...but what is a realistic time frame? - the Elise (admittedly not C3g) is 4 to 5 weeks...


 
 Indeed, in fact i ordered an Elise for a friend last week and it will be delivered next week!


----------



## 2359glenn

sonictrance said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > At some point I might start making C3g adapters for the Elise not enough out there yet to make it worth my while.
> ...


 

 No they will be different WA5 has the sockets wired diferent


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> The Glenn amp sure looks nice...but what is a realistic time frame? - the Elise (admittedly not C3g) is 4 to 5 weeks...


 
  
 The Elise is mass-produced, albeit by a small boutique manufacturer, in a predetermined configuration with defined features. It is my understanding from others that they are considering a C3g Elise, but likely this will be dependent on demand.
  
 The Glenn is custom-made by hand. One may specify such things as capacitors, transformers, pots, 4pin XLR or 1/4", the number and kinds of sockets, and so on. Again, it is custom made for each customer. And therefore, of course such an amp takes more time to build.
  
 But this is the Feliks thread, not the Glenn thread, so I will not speak of this again.....


----------



## i luvmusic 2

If you like to burn that much $$$$ try building a CRACK(considering you can DIY)


----------



## gibosi

As the Elise uses the 6SN7 as drivers, not C3g, I would like to try to push this thread back on track....
  
 Since I can roll C3g and 6SN7 in the same amp, with the same power tubes and the same regulator, it is very easy for me to compare them. And it is my opinion that the C3g is not the super tube that some would have you believe. Yes, it is superb, but so are many of the 6SN7. While it is true that C3g has better resolution than any 6SN7, personally, I find the difference to be very small. (But then, I am not a detail freak.  And further, again in my opinion, tonality, imaging and space are just as important, if not more so. It had been quite some time since I last rolled a Tung-Sol RPBG 6SN7GT, and therefore decided to spend a couple hours with it this evening. The tonality of this tube is superb, vocals sound very natural to me, and the sense of imaging and space is second to none. I will choose this TS over a Siemens C3g every time.
  
 Of course, everyone has different ears and different gear, so I am not suggesting that everyone will prefer a given 6SN7 over the C3g. What I am suggesting is that when the C3g is compared head-to-head with the many double triodes one can roll in the Elise, it is just one of many excellent choices.
  
 And I wish to remind you that after you roll through several hundred 6SN7, there are also 6F8G, E88CC, E182CC, E80CC, among others, which require only simple pin-adapters to allow their use in a 6SN7 socket. The last two, E182CC and E80CC, favorites of mine, are 10,000 hour ultra-premium tubes with lower distortion and better linearity than a C3g.
  
 Have fun!


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> As the Elise uses the 6SN7 as drivers, not C3g, I would like to try to push this thread back on track....
> 
> Since I can roll C3g and 6SN7 in the same amp, with the same power tubes and the same regulator, it is very easy for me to compare them. And it is my opinion that the C3g is not the super tube that some would have you believe. Yes, it is superb, but so are many of the 6SN7. While it is true that C3g has better resolution than any 6SN7, personally, I find the difference to be very small. (But then, I am not a detail freak.  And further, again in my opinion, tonality, imaging and space are just as important, if not more so. It had been quite some time since I last rolled a Tung-Sol RPBG 6SN7GT, and therefore decided to spend a couple hours with it this evening. The tonality of this tube is superb, vocals sound very natural to me, and the sense of imaging and space is second to none. I will choose this TS over a Siemens C3g every time.
> 
> ...


 
  
 You are right of course, g...no 1 tube by any means is going to appear/appeal the same to everyone. And there is certainly a bewildering array to choose from (thank goodness!).
  
 But there is also one major factor that has to be taken into account here - COST!... I only wish I could afford hard-to-find NOS TS 6SN7GT BGRPs - $300 to $400 (and more sometimes!) a pair...and even (risky) 'good' used ones are very expensive, if you can find them. I would have loved to see how they compare in my Elise - I can only hope a fellow owner is lucky enough to possess these beauties to give some impressions!
  
 So there is a long journey ahead for people to find their own favourite companions to their Elise...but luckily even more modest tubes perform extremely well indeed...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I'm sure others will have just as much fun as I... (and you with your Glenn - although I doubt there are many with such a vast tube collection as yourself, g!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Cheers!


----------



## gibosi

I assure you that I have never spent $150 to $200 for any single tube, much less twice that for a pair. I have 5 of these TS and I have not paid more than $50 each. Now, I have no problems purchasing used tubes that test good. Once a tube is burned in, it sounds the same for at least several thousand hours, so why pay a premium for NOS/NIB? Further, I look for rebrands. Late one night I got very lucky and grabbed an "RCA" branded TS for $15 from a seller who didn't know what he had.   A Tung-Sol RPBG with an Emerson label or an RCA label sounds identical to one with a Tung-Sol label.  
  
 So my advice, don't worry about NOS/NIB and don't worry about matched pairs. As long as you can find two that test strong, they will make a fine pair. And learn how to recognize the tubes you want by their construction so you can pounce on rebrands when you see them. And have fun!


----------



## Acapella11

hypnos1 said:


> You are right of course, g...no 1 tube by any means is going to appear/appeal the same to everyone. And there is certainly a bewildering array to choose from (thank goodness!).
> 
> But there is also one major factor that has to be taken into account here - COST!... I only wish I could afford hard-to-find NOS TS 6SN7GT BGRPs - $300 to $400 (and more sometimes!) a pair...and even (risky) 'good' used ones are very expensive, if you can find them. I would have loved to see how they compare in my Elise - I can only hope a fellow owner is lucky enough to possess these beauties to give some impressions!
> 
> ...


 
  


gibosi said:


> I assure you that I have never spent $150 to $200 for any single tube, much less twice that for a pair. I have 5 of these TS and I have not paid more than $50 each. Now, I have no problems purchasing used tubes that test good. Once a tube is burned in, it sounds the same for at least several thousand hours, so why pay a premium for NOS/NIB? Further, I look for rebrands. Late one night I got very lucky and grabbed an "RCA" branded TS for $15 from a seller who didn't know what he had.   A Tung-Sol RPBG with an Emerson label or an RCA label sounds identical to one with a Tung-Sol label.
> 
> So my advice, don't worry about NOS/NIB and don't worry about matched pairs. As long as you can find two that test strong, they will make a fine pair. And learn how to recognize the tubes you want by their construction so you can pounce on rebrands when you see them. And have fun!


 
  
 I think both of you have good points here. In order to achieve a synthesis of these, IMO there are two points to consider: 1) Personal preference of signature 2) Dedication to tube rolling. If you happen to love the C3G signature, this is probably the best bang for the buck tube on an excellent level. If you you prefer other signatures (richer, bassier, more transients...) and/or your magic of using a tube amp is in exploring the variation of sound (*how will that one sound...curious smile*), then you will never be satisfied with a pair of C3Gs or any other excellent 6SN7.
 We all have different wallets and preferences.
  
 Besides, IMO if you are having fun trying lots of different tubes, you may want to make sure that the quality of the power you are using gets the best out of them. The PowerInspired AG500 regenerator is available for about $375 in the version allowing to control fan speed and it is dead silent at 75% fan speed, an excellent unit, unbeatable price/value ratio and costs the price of 2 to 4 high end 6SN7 tube pairs...


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> I assure you that I have never spent $150 to $200 for any single tube, much less twice that for a pair. I have 5 of these TS and I have not paid more than $50 each. Now, I have no problems purchasing used tubes that test good. Once a tube is burned in, it sounds the same for at least several thousand hours, so why pay a premium for NOS/NIB? Further, I look for rebrands. Late one night I got very lucky and grabbed an "RCA" branded TS for $15 from a seller who didn't know what he had.   A Tung-Sol RPBG with an Emerson label or an RCA label sounds identical to one with a Tung-Sol label.
> 
> So my advice, don't worry about NOS/NIB and don't worry about matched pairs. As long as you can find two that test strong, they will make a fine pair. And learn how to recognize the tubes you want by their construction so you can pounce on rebrands when you see them. And have fun!


 
 Hi again g.
  
 I wish I had your faith in used tubes - you have done well indeed to get good BGRPs for that kind of money. There seem to be a good few 'dodgy' tubes out there these days...we live in different times now to even just a few years ago, lol!  A perusal of different threads indicates I am not the only one to have had 'near death' experiences with so-called 'good' tubes. When I only had the HD650s to possibly sacrifice I wasn't so paranoid, but now with the T1s I will never take such chances again I'm afraid. This will obviously limit drastically my choice of tubes, but at least now I can sleep a bit more soundly at nights!! I am obviously now not such an inveterate/dedicated tube roller...I shall leave that to those braver/luckier than I...I am content...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> I wish I had your faith in used tubes - you have done well indeed to get good BGRPs for that kind of money. There seem to be a good few 'dodgy' tubes out there these days...we live in different times now to even just a few years ago, lol!  A perusal of different threads indicates I am not the only one to have had 'near death' experiences with so-called 'good' tubes. When I only had the HD650s to possibly sacrifice I wasn't so paranoid, but now with the T1s I will never take such chances again I'm afraid. This will obviously limit drastically my choice of tubes, but at least now I can sleep a bit more soundly at nights!! I am obviously now not such an inveterate/dedicated tube roller...I shall leave that to those braver/luckier than I...I am content...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 For power tubes, this is true. A shorted power tube can indeed take out your headphones and even damage your hearing. Typically, if power tubes are going to fail, they do so when power is applied and during warm up. As a general rule, I wait 5 minutes after turning the amp on before I connect the headphones. This gives them time to stabilize (or fail). On the other hand, if a driver fails, the risk is negligible. Usually, the tube just shuts down. So I believe that purchasing a used pair of GEC 6AS7 is much more likely to take out your T1s than a used pair of 6SN7....
  
 And very frankly, brand new tubes can fail too. NOS/NIB is no guarantee that they are good. In fact, one could argue that a lightly used tube has been tested under fire and passed.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> hypnos1 said:
> 
> 
> > I wish I had your faith in used tubes - you have done well indeed to get good BGRPs for that kind of money. There seem to be a good few 'dodgy' tubes out there these days...we live in different times now to even just a few years ago, lol!  A perusal of different threads indicates I am not the only one to have had 'near death' experiences with so-called 'good' tubes. When I only had the HD650s to possibly sacrifice I wasn't so paranoid, but now with the T1s I will never take such chances again I'm afraid. This will obviously limit drastically my choice of tubes, but at least now I can sleep a bit more soundly at nights!! I am obviously now not such an inveterate/dedicated tube roller...I shall leave that to those braver/luckier than I...I am content...
> ...


 

 Same here always warm up amp before i plug in HP and if i leave for a few minutes i always unplug HP you never know .


----------



## Shaffer

I guess I'm in both camps; I buy new and used. Used and well-tested, there are some real bargains out there. For example, I paid $12 for a pair of Sylvania chrome tops (used), $45 for JAN Chathams (new). As I'm trying to figure out what works well in the Elise and meshes equally with my own expectations, I tend to spend as little as possible and try as much as possible. My favorite driver tubes ATM are CBS-branded Haltrons. I paid $21 shipped for a used pair that tests NOS. There's something to be said for both approaches - new and used - there's no right or wrong here.


----------



## Shaffer

I can report that the Elise works very well with low-z cans. It's been very hot here for a few days, and I've been using ATH-AD900x, which are the coolest-feeling cans I have. Never heard them sound better, or more detailed, or with a better defined spectrum. No trace of brightness, liquid mids, and the bass of the godz (given the native characteristics of the headphone). Even my V200 couldn't extract that kind of performance from these cans. The Elise sells for half as much. Amazing.


----------



## Lorspeaker

Anyone heard it with the old denon cans? Or AKGs?


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> Anyone heard it with the old denon cans? Or AKGs?




I own K702 and K550. Does that help?


----------



## Lorspeaker

so i guess it cleared the akghurdle...what about the denons


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> I can report that the Elise works very well with low-z cans. It's been very hot here for a few days, and I've been using ATH-AD900x, which are the coolest-feeling cans I have. Never heard them sound better, or more detailed, or with a better defined spectrum. No trace of brightness, liquid mids, and the bass of the godz (given the native characteristics of the headphone). Even my V200 couldn't extract that kind of performance from these cans. The Elise sells for half as much. Amazing.


 
 Which set of tubes are you listening with atm Shaffer?


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Which set of tubes are you listening with atm Shaffer?




ATM, I'm using (Russian) NOS Foton drivers and JAN Chatham output tubes.


----------



## Renderman

Oh ofcourse, the Foton's! I like those quite a bit, very good for the money! I found a matched pair NOS 1966 OTK Fotons for just 13 euros. I would say that was the best bang for the buck tube so far.


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Oh ofcourse, the Foton's! I like those quite a bit, very good for the money! I found a matched pair NOS 1966 OTK Fotons for just 13 euros.* I would say that was the best bang for the buck tube so far.*




Agree. The Fotons could cost twice as much and still be a bargain.

In a few weeks I hope to post some impressions of various driver tubes in the Elise, keeping the Chathams as a constant.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Agree. The Fotons could cost twice as much and still be a bargain.
> 
> In a few weeks I hope to post some impressions of various driver tubes in the Elise, keeping the Chathams as a constant.


 
 I would be very interested to read those! It would be nice for people to know which tubes pair well with the Elise.


----------



## gibosi

renderman said:


> I would be very interested to read those! It would be nice for people to know which tubes pair well with the Elise.


 
  
 And I would encourage you to consider that the Elise adds little or no color to the sound. What is more interesting, I think, are the driver/output combinations that seem to hit the sweet spot. For instance, in a Glenn OTL, I prefer a pair of 5998 with the TP RPBG and slotted graphite Bendix 6080WB with the C3g.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> *And I would encourage you to consider that the Elise adds little or no color to the sound. *What is more interesting, I think, are the driver/output combinations that seem to hit the sweet spot. For instance, in a Glenn OTL, I prefer a pair of 5998 with the TP RPBG and slotted graphite Bendix 6080WB with the C3g.




That's the conclusion I'm coming to. The Elise is very transparent. I've only heard this scope of performance from ridiculously priced pieces like ARC's Ref150.


----------



## hypnos1

Quote:​


shaffer said:


> I can report that the Elise works very well with low-z cans. It's been very hot here for a few days, and I've been using ATH-AD900x, which are the coolest-feeling cans I have. Never heard them sound better, or more detailed, or with a better defined spectrum. No trace of brightness, liquid mids, and the bass of the godz (given the native characteristics of the headphone). Even my V200 couldn't extract that kind of performance from these cans. The Elise sells for half as much. Amazing.


 
  
 Good to have confirmation re low-z cans Shaffer...and that you are still impressed/happy with your Elise...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


gibosi said:


> For power tubes, this is true. A shorted power tube can indeed take out your headphones and even damage your hearing. Typically, if power tubes are going to fail, they do so when power is applied and during warm up. As a general rule, I wait 5 minutes after turning the amp on before I connect the headphones. This gives them time to stabilize (or fail). On the other hand, if a driver fails, the risk is negligible. Usually, the tube just shuts down. So I believe that purchasing a used pair of GEC 6AS7 is much more likely to take out your T1s than a used pair of 6SN7....
> 
> And very frankly, brand new tubes can fail too. NOS/NIB is no guarantee that they are good. In fact, one could argue that a lightly used tube has been tested under fire and passed.


 
  
 Hi g.
  
 Obviously my bad luck has confirmed my pessimistic streak lol - my 4 experiences with drivers were far from 'negligible' I fear...positively *scary*!..ie increasingly loud crackle that I would not have wanted to get any louder, to be sure...perhaps I was just _especially_ unlucky and the exception to the rule...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 MIKELAP...your sensible comment re unplugging HPs for even just a few minutes away is spot on - one minute things were fine on a couple of occasions, the next NOT so fine!! So good advice for all I should think...


----------



## Shaffer

I have a hard time, intellectually, running a tube amp with no load. So, I bought a pair of AT refurbs on ebay for $20 - they sound awful - and use them when tuning the amps on and off.

H1, I love the Elise. Best audio purchase since my Oppo105.


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> I have a hard time, intellectually, running a tube amp with no load. So, I bought a pair of AT refurbs on ebay for $20 - they sound awful - and use them when tuning the amps on and off.
> 
> H1, I love the Elise. Best audio purchase since my Oppo105.


 
  
 Ah, the Oppos...wish I'd gone for the 105 instead of the 103, but at least the media player in it is 1st class (now I have the latest firmware especially) - coax out to my Audiolab's DAC is tremendous!...
  
 (And must get some cheap HPs instead of using my HD650s as bait!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> I have a hard time, intellectually, running a tube amp with no load. So, I bought a pair of AT refurbs on ebay for $20 - they sound awful - and use them when tuning the amps on and off.


 
  
 Five minutes, or so, won't hurt anything. While my 5998 heat up, the metal expands, and the pops and clicks emitted through the headphones are quite loud. In fact, even with no headphones attached, I can hear them! It reminds me of the sound I hear when car engines are turned off, the pops and clicks as the metal cools.


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Obviously my bad luck has confirmed my pessimistic streak lol - my 4 experiences with drivers were far from 'negligible' I fear...positively *scary*!..ie increasingly loud crackle that I would not have wanted to get any louder, to be sure...perhaps I was just _especially_ unlucky and the exception to the rule...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 You certainly do seem to have had a very peculiar stroke of bad luck. With some 800+ tubes, I have never had a problem with drivers in the Little Dot or the Glenn. The only ones that scare me are the power tubes. With the plate connected directly to your headphones, bad things can and do happen.
  
 When burning-in tubes for hours and hours, connecting a $20 pair of headphones is a very good practice. HP650s are probably a bit too good for that... lol


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> hypnos1 said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously my bad luck has confirmed my pessimistic streak lol - my 4 experiences with drivers were far from 'negligible' I fear...positively *scary*!..ie increasingly loud crackle that I would not have wanted to get any louder, to be sure...perhaps I was just _especially_ unlucky and the exception to the rule...
> ...


 

 It is a good practice to urn the amp on for 5min before plugging in phones
 Especially with 5998s I blew a pair of headphones when they arced over then they were fine.
 Other people had the same problem with 5998s.
 Most tubes are fine until you get a bad one so it is a good rule with all new 6AS7 types.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> I have a hard time, intellectually, running a tube amp with no load. So, I bought a pair of AT refurbs on ebay for $20 - they sound awful - and use them when tuning the amps on and off.
> 
> H1, I love the Elise. Best audio purchase since my Oppo105.


 
 I do the same with a 35 year old pair of Sony DR-S7 headphones I got from a friend, they don't sound that great and have volume control. I turn the volume down hoping to spare the drivers


----------



## 2359glenn

shaffer said:


> I have a hard time, intellectually, running a tube amp with no load. So, I bought a pair of AT refurbs on ebay for $20 - they sound awful - and use them when tuning the amps on and off.
> 
> H1, I love the Elise. Best audio purchase since my Oppo105.


 

 It does not heart a OTL to run with no load only tube amps with a output transformers.
 Could cause the transformer to arc over.


----------



## gibosi

So I would add... since for many Elise owners will be their very first OTL, it is important to understand that the safest and best practice is turn the amp on, allow it heat up to its normal operating temperature and stabilize before plugging in headphones.
  
 A good rule to remember: "First on and last off."
  
 To begin: Turn it on and wait 5 minutes. And then turn on the DAC and/or other associated equipment and connect headphones. 
  
 To end: Disconnect headphones, turn off other equipment and then turn off the amp.


----------



## lukeap69

Is there any problem if the DAC is already ON? I rarely turn my DAC OFF.


----------



## gibosi

lukeap69 said:


> Is there any problem if the DAC is already ON? I rarely turn my DAC OFF.


 
  
 I doubt that it is a problem. However, when instructing beginners I try to be very cautious.


----------



## lukeap69

gibosi said:


> I doubt that it is a problem. However, when instructing beginners I try to be very cautious.


 
 Oh good. And I salute you for that!


----------



## Shaffer

2359glenn said:


> It does not heart a OTL to run with no load only tube amps with a output transformers.
> *Could cause the transformer to arc over. *




Do you mean a non-OTL amp?


----------



## mordy

Unbeknown to me I had a blown speaker, and when I used my Little Dot MKIII as a preamp, it blew out all the transistors on the left side of my receiver. Supposedly the Little Dot MK9 has a circuit to prevent this. Here is a quote from the Chinglish language manual:
  

"But to make the circuit in the case of direct coupled DC level is zero, need symmetrical supply complex. In order to stabilize the operation of the circuit, and the machine also adopts a "zero servo tracking circuit".
  
 When we were asked by Hypnos1 to come up with design suggestions for the Elise, we asked for such a protective circuit, and apparently it was incorporated into the design.
  
 Does this protective circuit protect headphones from blowing up?


----------



## dahan

2359glenn said:


> It is a good practice to urn the amp on for 5min before plugging in phones
> Especially with 5998s I blew a pair of headphones when they arced over then they were fine.
> Other people had the same problem with 5998s.
> Most tubes are fine until you get a bad one so it is a good rule with all new 6AS7 types.


 

 I've heard people saying it'll damage your tube amp if you turn on a tube amp with no loads. Is it true, or just for the speaker amps?


----------



## gibosi

I'll take a stab at this.... I figure Glenn will correct me if necessary. 
  
 Generally speaking, tubes are high impedance devices. And therefore, when used to drive speakers, say 4 ohm or 8 ohm, an Output Transformer (OT) is required to match the high output impedance of the amp to the low impedance of the speakers.
  
 6AS7s and similar tubes have a lower impedance than most tubes, but still too high to drive 8 ohm loads. However, since the headphones that many use with tube amps have an impedance of around 300 ohms, it turns out that no transformer is necessary to match the output impedance to these relatively high-Z headphones. And hence, the term Output Transformer-Less (OTL) headphone amp. And further, with careful design and tweaking. OTL's can often drive 50 ohm cans, and sometimes, even lower.
  
 The rather large transformer you see on top of many tube amps provides the necessary current and voltage to actually run the amplifier. Heaters often draw considerable current. Two 6AS7s draw 5 amps. Two 6SN7's draw 1.2 amps. And the amplification circuit itself draws around 0.2 amps.
  
 And so again, if an output transformer is required, then yes, there must be a load on that transformer or damage may occur. But in OTL designs, it is perfectly safe and desirable to wait until the amp is hot and stable before attaching the headphones (the load)..


----------



## dahan

gibosi said:


> I'll take a stab at this.... I figure Glenn will correct me if necessary.
> 
> Generally speaking, tubes are high impedance devices. And therefore, when used to drive speakers, say 4 ohm or 8 ohm, an Output Transformer (OT) is required to match the high output impedance of the amp to the low impedance of the speakers.
> 
> ...


 

 Thank you for clarifying. For output transformer coupled amps (WA22), is it safe to turn the amp on with no load?


----------



## gibosi

I am most certainly not an expert on this this subject....  Again, generally speaking, amps that use output transformers, that is, amps that are output transformer coupled, should not be operated without a proper load. That said, maybe it is possible to design an amp with a dummy load in the event that a proper load is not connected? I don't know....  And therefore, I suggest that you check with Woo about this.


----------



## MIKELAP

dahan said:


> gibosi said:
> 
> 
> > I'll take a stab at this.... I figure Glenn will correct me if necessary.
> ...


 

 This is startup procedure from WA22 manual


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Maybe a switch TRS jack  could be used one side is for the Dummy load resistor so once a HP jack is inserted it will disconnect the Dummy load.Will this work?


----------



## gibosi

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Maybe a switch TRS jack  could be used one side is for the Dummy load resistor so once a HP jack is inserted it will disconnect the Dummy load.Will this work?


 
  
 Something like that would certainly work, if needed. But from above, Woo's startup procedure stipulates that headphones are to be plugged in before the amp is turned on.


----------



## Lorspeaker

My pro900 died from a dying tube on the darkvoice I believe, I saw a spark...some gritting noise in my left driver...
Thereafter silence.


----------



## lukeap69

lorspeaker said:


> My pro900 died from a dying tube on the darkvoice I believe, I saw a spark...some gritting noise in my left driver...
> Thereafter silence.




As in dark background?


----------



## Lorspeaker

darkvoice336se tube amp


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> darkvoice336se tube amp




How did you like the 336SE? I'm thinking of picking one up to play with.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> My pro900 died from a dying tube on the darkvoice I believe, I saw a spark...some gritting noise in my left driver...
> Thereafter silence.


 
  
 Hi L.
  
 I do believe you, like me, would never again touch a tube with a loose base, no? Two of those that gave me a scare also had these, and although common advice is to just glue them back tight I personally would think twice before ever doing so...actually I NEVER will again! Twisting to an apparently 'safe' position then glueing lulled me into a false sense of security...things _seemed_ OK for a short while, but then...aaargh! (No doubt loads of people have refastened bases with no problems, but all I can say is GOOD LUCK!)...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps. Haven't you made room on that coffee table yet?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 CHEERS...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I used water and wood glue mixed to fix my tubes loosed base.


----------



## gibosi

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I used water and wood glue mixed to fix my tubes loosed base.


 
  
 And I have used clear nail polish. I wanted to use nail polish with some glitter, but my wife doesn't have any...


----------



## mordy

Used a drop of crazy glue to fix one loose base on a 6SN7.
  
 I had a Chatham 6AS7 with a loose base. Took a picture of it, and then I accidentally knocked it and it fell to the floor and shattered. Maybe that was a good thing.....based on Hypnos1 warning above.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

gibosi said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > I used water and wood glue mixed to fix my tubes loosed base.
> ...


 
 With glitter would be nice.


----------



## Lorspeaker

shaffer said:


> How did you like the 336SE? I'm thinking of picking one up to play with.




I liked this amp more than the Littledot mk3 n 4se...and the Lyr...
There is that bloom n body.
But u already have a double barrel "darkvoice" in the Elise, no?


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> I liked this amp more than the Littledot mk3 n 4se...and the Lyr...
> There is that bloom n body.
> *But u already have a double barrel "darkvoice" in the Elise, no?*




Yes, I have one, but I may still get a 336SE. Good to hear it has some sonic promise.


----------



## Lorspeaker

hypnos1 said:


> Hi L.
> 
> I do believe you, like me, would never again touch a tube with a loose base, no? Two of those that gave me a scare also had these, and although common advice is to just glue them back tight I personally would think twice before ever doing so...actually I NEVER will again! Twisting to an apparently 'safe' position then glueing lulled me into a false sense of security...things _seemed_ OK for a short while, but then...aaargh! (No doubt loads of people have refastened bases with no problems, but all I can say is GOOD LUCK!)...
> 
> ...


 
  
 the tube that blew my pro900 was ordinary looking, nothing loose...
 but i havent learnt my lesson, my can is always attached to the tube amp..hmmmm.


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> I do believe you, like me, would never again touch a tube with a loose base, no? Two of those that gave me a scare also had these, and although common advice is to just glue them back tight I personally would think twice before ever doing so...actually I NEVER will again! Twisting to an apparently 'safe' position then glueing lulled me into a false sense of security...things _seemed_ OK for a short while, but then...aaargh! (No doubt loads of people have refastened bases with no problems, but all I can say is GOOD LUCK!)...


 
  
 With the experience you have in building adapters, of all of us, you are likely the most able to deal with this. Desolder the tube lead wires from the pins, dissolve the glue and pull off the base. Check the lead wires, and of course if at all possible, replace with *SILVER*. Slide the base back on, resolder, and reglue.  
  
 http://www.nostalgiaair.org/References/Articles/TheFlash/Flash08.htm
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j71h_WJ_l5s


----------



## mordy

Thanks for the article on restoring old tubes - fascinating. Got to try the fogging method to read faded silk screening on tubes...


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> With the experience you have in building adapters, of all of us, you are likely the most able to deal with this. Desolder the tube lead wires from the pins, dissolve the glue and pull off the base. Check the lead wires, and of course if at all possible, replace with *SILVER*. Slide the base back on, resolder, and reglue.
> 
> http://www.nostalgiaair.org/References/Articles/TheFlash/Flash08.htm
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j71h_WJ_l5s


 
  
 Hey g, why on earth didn't I think of that?...surprising what anger and panic can do to your brain cells, lol!! A piece of cake really, as confirmed by your links...thanks.
  
 All I need now is to find those darn' VT231s...although they could easily be long since consigned to a landfill pit somewhere...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. But if I do manage to find them you can be quite sure it *WILL* be silver - pure, soft-annealed -  they get treated to! (you know me too well by now K...). Actually, while on this favourite topic of mine I'm going to experiment combining said silver along with some single-crystal copper wire in adapters and a pair of interconnects (just imagine how much a fancy cable outfit would charge for those!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Ah well, you never know...


----------



## Shaffer

I mentioned earlier in the thread how I preferred my Beyer cans - DT880/600 and DT990 - with ss in lieu of an OTL. That was mostly based on my experience with the LDIII. The Elise is a different animal. The DT880/600 sound full-bodied, detailed, and extended at the frequency extremes with no trace of excess brightness, along with killer bass dynamics. Just when one thinks the lows can't get any deeper, BAM!, a note comes along that vibrates one's entire face.

The biggest surprise came from DT990. As you guys know, it's an open can. In fact, it's the most open sounding headphone that I own, because, well, it's so open. In combination with the Elise, and its dead-quiet background and lightning transients, the DT990 made music sound as if it was emanating from utter silence completely surrounding the cans. Like there are no electronics or headphones, just music all around. It's an uncanny experience (really bad pun intended).


----------



## Lorspeaker

shaffer said:


> I mentioned earlier in the thread how I preferred my Beyer cans - DT880/600 and DT990 - with ss in lieu of an OTL. That was mostly based on my experience with the LDIII. The Elise is a different animal. The DT880/600 sound full-bodied, detailed, and extended at the frequency extremes with no trace of excess brightness, along with killer bass dynamics. Just when one thinks the lows can't get any deeper, BAM!, a note comes along that vibrates one's entire face.
> 
> The biggest surprise came from DT990. As you guys know, it's an open can. In fact, it's the most open sounding headphone that I own, because, well, it's so open. In combination with the Elise, and its dead-quiet background and lightning transients, the DT990 made music sound as if it was emanating from utter silence completely surrounding the cans. Like there are no electronics or headphones, just music all around. It's an uncanny experience (really bad pun intended).





u are the most potent threat in tubeampfi....
stopitstopit !$!$! those descriptions are tormentg!

btw...do u hv a dt150?


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> u are the most potent threat in tubeampfi....
> stopitstopit !$!$! those descriptions are tormentg!
> 
> btw...do u hv a dt150?




I don't have DT150, unfortunately, but perhaps one day.

About 20 years ago, during one of my stints working in the audio industry, I heard an Ayre K-1 preamp at a show. Upon getting back, we contacted Ayre and arranged for a demo to be shipped to us. Long story made short, it redefined what I expected from a preamp (and a phono stage) and I bought it. Over the years, several components had a similar impact on my audio orientation: the lowly Boston Acoustics A40, Lyra Clavis, Dunlavy SC-IV, Ayre K-1, Oppo105 ...and now the Feliks Audio Elise. It really is _that _good.


----------



## Lorspeaker

did u hook up a preamp to the elise...any significant improvement to the sound/soundstage?


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> did u hook up a preamp to the elise...any significant improvement to the sound/soundstage?




I run the Oppo straight into the Elise, bypassing the Krell.


----------



## Lorspeaker

will anything explode if u loop in the krell..
or can u loop in a littledotMk3 and see if u like it?

I hv a decware as a pre to my DV336...must say the effect is so significant I m hesistent to disturb the setup.


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> will anything explode if u loop in the krell..
> or can u loop in a littledotMk3 and see if u like it?
> 
> I hv a decware as a pre to my DV336...must say the effect is so significant I m hesistent to disturb the setup.




Interesting. I'll try it.


----------



## lukeap69

Silly question but what will the preamping do or add?


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> I mentioned earlier in the thread how I preferred my Beyer cans - DT880/600 and DT990 - with ss in lieu of an OTL. That was mostly based on my experience with the LDIII. The Elise is a different animal. The DT880/600 sound full-bodied, detailed, and extended at the frequency extremes with no trace of excess brightness, along with killer bass dynamics. Just when one thinks the lows can't get any deeper, BAM!, a note comes along that vibrates one's entire face.
> 
> The biggest surprise came from DT990. As you guys know, it's an open can. In fact, it's the most open sounding headphone that I own, because, well, it's so open. In combination with the Elise, and its dead-quiet background and lightning transients, the DT990 made music sound as if it was emanating from utter silence completely surrounding the cans. Like there are no electronics or headphones, just music all around. It's an uncanny experience (really bad pun intended).


 
  
 Hey S.
  
 There was I worrying all this time that folks might just begin to suspect my ravings - and that I might even be Lukasz's undercover agent! - when I should actually have given FULL vent to my excitement and joy at what I was hearing lol!!...you make me a very happy chappie indeed (and the Feliks guys of course, given the brave choice to go ahead with such a "tongue-in-cheek" suggestion from a complete stranger...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Keep enjoying!


----------



## Lorspeaker

lukeap69 said:


> Silly question but what will the preamping do or add?


 
  
 right this moment, i just did an experiment: playing " The Dark Knight Rises" :
  
 one setup is this...
 audiogd as dac ...to decware CSP2+ ...MT220..
 i could hear the music very clear..all the low notes..a wall of sound.
  
 when i add on the darkvoice
 audiogddac....CSp2+...DV336se...MT220
*the soundstage goes extra3D*
 stretched-in depth
 stronger bass
 very LIFE Like 
  
 if i switch places between the Csp2 and the DV336...
 the effect is not as drastic.
  
 i think it is some kind of synergy being played off between the gears when looped in a certain order.
  
 =========
  
 i am wondering if i replace the DV336 with the ELISE...
 will i hear into *EXTREME 3D*...? LOL


----------



## lukeap69

lorspeaker said:


> right this moment, i just did an experiment: playing " The Dark Knight Rises" :
> 
> one setup is this...
> audiogd as dac ...to decware CSP2+ ...MT220..
> ...




Wow, thanks. I will play with my Rok and Lyr when I find time...

Cheers


----------



## mordy

OK - took the leap and ordered an Elise. I also asked Lukasz when the manual will be available, and if the protective built in circuitry would prevent headphones from blowing up if a tube arced.
  
 Here is the reply to both questions:
  
 "The manual in pdf shall be available on the website in the next few days.
 The amps design would prevent headphone damage from any tube malfunction."
  
 I don't have 5998 tubes or the T1 LOL, but it looks safe to use.....


----------



## Renderman

Awesome Mordy! Welcome to the club  I hope your Elise will arrive quickly and you will enjoy it a lot!
  
 Thanks for the info, this is good news indeed. I will mention to Lukasz it would be a good idea to put this in the description of the Elise on their site.
  
 I will be downloading that manual for sure... great news.


----------



## mordy

Did you get back the one with the unwanted noise?


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> OK - took the leap and ordered an Elise. I also asked Lukasz when the manual will be available, and if the protective built in circuitry would prevent headphones from blowing up if a tube arced.
> 
> Here is the reply to both questions:
> 
> ...


 
  
 WELCOME! indeed mordy - glad to have you on board...another great addition to the 'family'.
  
 And thanks for the extra info - very useful...(I must admit to being slightly perplexed - but mightily relieved -  at the headphone protection from "any" tube malfunction - sounds like a very clever bit of circuitry to me!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).
  
 Must inform also those who don't yet know that the amp's sockets are now mounted flush with the case, so adapter/extenders are no longer needed for wide-based tubes...
  
 As an aside, since returning from the head-fi meet I have been somewhat (pleasantly) confused at a noticeable improvement in sound coming out of the amp - at first I thought it was down to unplugging/replugging plugs etc. throughout the system (or removing mounds of dust from behind the rack, lol!!).
  
 Then the light bulb finally decided to come on - and gave proof positive of the need to have equipment on a good, sturdy platform. Previously, I had assumed that my 3 oak coned feet placed under the amp would counteract my folly at placing it directly on top of another piece of equipment...WRONG!! When putting everything back I placed a thick glass mat between them, and the difference is amazing...should have known better...At least I have now confirmed (to my satisfaction) that previous doubts I had about this aspect were totally unfounded. Whether paying $100s for a single platform is actually necessary I still have doubts about however!
  
 Bass especially has benefited greatly - even punchier and more controlled - but there is also an extra dimension that I can't quite put my finger on...increased overall 'integrity', I suppose.
  
 Just another instance of the Elise continually surprising me as other elements in the chain are 'sorted'...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Edit...hold on a minute, of course there are other obvious differences ( now I've just heard a couple more of my favourite tracks)...even better instrument separation/placement/spatial qualities, with concomitant increase in 3-dimensionality. And even the T1s are sounding a bit happier with those rather brightly recorded pieces - treble, like the bass, also has more control...why oh why was I so silly before?!! Once again I am in total awe...


----------



## Lorspeaker

when u dun have cones...and tablespace...just pile 'em up "P


----------



## mordy

This is what I use. Bought a proper equipment rack many years ago that rests on spikes on a wooden floor. Each shelf is MDF that rests on four little tabs.
 Between the tabs and the MDF board I put little glass marbles to cancel out vibrations.
 Then I put my old aluminum cones under the amp with a bluetack like compound.
  
  




  
 I do not have problems with acoustic feedback, and  there is no noise when walking on the floor.
  
 Never used to believe in this stuff, but placing a pair of very large floor standing speakers on spikes radically changed the sound and imaging for the better....


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> when u dun have cones...and tablespace...just pile 'em up "P


 
  
 OMG, L!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...you just gotta treat yourself to a proper rack - mordy has MDF shelves, mine are glass (one shelf lacking, hence my now makeshift 'extra' one, albeit on top of another resonance box, lol!). The difference is truly eye-opening...or rather EAR-opening!


----------



## nephilim

Hi,
  
 from what I've read so far I'm really interested in the Elise. A couple of questions: 
  
 I currently have an LD Mk3 with 6H30Pi and Voshkod 6ZH1P-EV tubes. I use the amp with an AKG K712 (60 Ohm impedance)
  
 1) What can I expect from the Elise compared to the Mk3? Will it be a clear improvement?
 2) Has anybody compared the Elise to the Icon HP8 (which is not OTL)?
 3) As far as I understood, both the Mk3 and the Elise are OTL. Will the K712 pair nicely with the Elise? The product page says that optimum impedance starts at 100Ohm but in their news section the range is extended to 32 Ohm.
 4) My Mk3 has some transformer hum, which goes away when I reduce the local 230V to 220V. Will the Elise 230VAC version hum?
 5) Is the upgrade to Tung Sol or even Melz driver tubes recommended?
  
  
 Cheers
  
 Torsten


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> Hi,
> 
> from what I've read so far I'm really interested in the Elise. A couple of questions:
> 
> ...




Reply in bold


----------



## Renderman

nephilim said:


> Hi,
> 
> from what I've read so far I'm really interested in the Elise. A couple of questions:
> 
> ...


 
  
 1)While I'm sure the Elise would be a definite upgrade, where are you located? If you are close by you are more then welcome to drop by and audition the Elise for yourself! (Bring your AKG K712's).
 2) Not sure but supposedly an OTL sounds quite different to an amplifier with OT.
 3) As Shaffer and other's have confirmed the Elise plays nice with 32 Ohm headphones, I use my Philips SHP-9500 32 Ohm headphones with it regularly.
 4) There is no transformer hum with the Elise, I can confirm that myself being very sensitive to those kind of things.
 5) The Melz drivers should sound very good however, a set of Foton 6N8Ss should sound very similar and only set you back about 15 euros. On the other hand, I'm sure the Feliks Audio guys hand picked the Melz driver pairs and adjusted the Elise perfectly to it. You have to decide for yourself if that is worth the price.
  
 I hope this helps to make your decision, just let me know if you would like to swing by!


----------



## nephilim

I'm living in Berlin, so it might be easier to visit the folks in Poland than you in the Netherlands


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I'am wondering how many ELISE are in GTA area(CANADA).


----------



## Renderman

nephilim said:


> I'm living in Berlin, so it might be easier to visit the folks in Poland than you in the Netherlands


 
  
 I say go for it! It might be easier and more cost effective to just buy an Elise of course  Berlin is a lovely city btw!


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> Hi,
> 
> from what I've read so far I'm really interested in the Elise. A couple of questions:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Torsten and (a belated) welcome to the thread.
  
 The guys have already done a good job of hopefully answering most of your questions.
  
 As for clear improvement, let me say that I have the MKIV SE - modded to take tubes that far surpass those you mention - and the Elise, even with modest tubes, is in another league.
  
 It is now clear that this amp drives low-z cans much better than would normally be expected from an OTL unit.
  
 My mains is 240V and the transformer is deathly silent.
  
 I was very impressed with the Melz tubes I had - but alas all 3 used tubes had to go back. I would suspect that NOS are needed for greater reliability...Many die-hard tube fans would probably say go for some good to strong old used tubes like Sylvanias, but from reliable, trusted sources. If you are patient and eagle-eyed you should be able to pick up some for a lot less than $150 the pair.
  
 I hope your appetite has been well and truly whetted - I'm quite sure there isn't an amp out there that can come close for anywhere near this kind of money...
  
 Best wishes whatever your choice,
  
 Cheers,
  
 C J


----------



## nephilim

Many thanks for the replies - most questions answered 
  
 I'm comparing the specs of the Elise and the Mk3. Is it correct that the Elise (200mW @300Ohm??) has lower power output than the Mk3 (350mW @300-600Ohm)?


----------



## Lorspeaker

The LDmk3 is leaner sounding versus the mk4se...
If hynos's modified littledot is left behind by the Elise, 
Then that's good news indeed.


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> Many thanks for the replies - most questions answered
> 
> I'm comparing the specs of the Elise and the Mk3. Is it correct that the Elise (200mW @300Ohm??) has lower power output than the Mk3 (350mW @300-600Ohm)?




Feliks doesn't specify the output at 300 Ohms, just as the LDIII doesn't specify a frequency for its output spec. It's a meaningless number. The Elise does sound quite a bit more powerful than the LDIII and much larger in scale relative to its presentation.


----------



## Shaffer

hypnos1 said:


> [...] It is now clear that this amp drives low-z cans much better than would normally be expected from an OTL unit. [...]




I've driven everything from +30 Ohm K550 and AD900x to 600 Ohm DT880 with the Elise. The AD900x responded particularly well to the amp. The cans became smoother, more resolving and extended on both ends of the spectrum. On the low-end, the ATs sounded like they gained an extra octave of reach. Not what I expected after living with a LDIII, that's for sure.


----------



## nephilim

Elise has been ordered - countdown started - just 1209600 seconds to go


----------



## Renderman

Great Nephilim! I'm sure you won't regret it! 1209600 seconds is about.. 2 weeks?


----------



## nephilim

Exactly! Looking forward


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> Exactly! Looking forward




Congratulations! To Mordy, as well.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Guys,
  
 Just finished reading a very nice review of the amp, thanks. I have a question, can this play well on low impedance HPs like Focal Spirit One? I was almost sold but then I noticed it is designed for 100-300 loads.
  
 Lastly, what is the best option in terms of SQ, cost, and versatility in tube rolling out of these three LDMK III, IV and Feliks-Elise.
  
 Regards!


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Just finished reading a very nice review of the amp, thanks. I have a question, can this play well on low impedance HPs like Focal Spirit One? I was almost sold but then I noticed it is designed for 100-300 loads.
> 
> ...




I've driven everything from +30 Ohm K550 and AD900x to 600 Ohm DT880 with the Elise. The AD900x responded particularly well to the amp. The cans became smoother, more resolving and extended on both ends of the spectrum. On the low-end, the ATs sounded like they gained an extra octave of reach. Not what I expected after living with a LDIII, that's for sure.


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> I've driven everything from +30 Ohm K550 and AD900x to 600 Ohm DT880 with the Elise. The AD900x responded particularly well to the amp. The cans became smoother, more resolving and extended on both ends of the spectrum. On the low-end, the ATs sounded like they gained an extra octave of reach. Not what I expected after living with a LDIII, that's for sure.


 
 I just read your reply post for Hypnos1 and it was took late when I posted my question, thanks 
  
 This is like 700$ amp with extra tubes, base model is 500$. I think a little over my budget, considering I'll still have to pay for the shipment. I am waiting for their reply, price quote.
  
 Meanwhile I'll continue reading the forum for clues!


----------



## Lorspeaker

i think the test , for me...is still how well it will muster the bass on a denon d7000 ....
 my tube amps are stretched on the lower/lowest bass end of this can.
 If the elise succeed here...then my bankaccount will be in serious trouble.
  
  
 the k550 ad900 focalspirits are quite easily powered to my experience.


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> I just read your reply post for Hypnos1 and it was took late when I posted my question, thanks
> 
> This is like 700$ amp with extra tubes, base model is 500$. I think a little over my budget, considering I'll still have to pay for the shipment. I am waiting for their reply, price quote.
> 
> Meanwhile I'll continue reading the forum for clues!




FWIW, the optional tubes are not suggested in this thread, so count on the introductory price of $500. The stock tubes aren't bad. Personally, I've paid as little as $12 and $14 for drivers and output tubes respectively. There are so many tube choices it's mind-boggling.


----------



## Lorspeaker

http://www.head-fi.org/t/765460/feliks-audio-elise-tube-rolling-guide-6sn7-6as7g-6080-5998/15#post_11612301

there s a thread on the tubes foe Elise...


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> Elise has been ordered - countdown started - just 1209600 seconds to go


 
  
 WELL DONE nephilim...you will not be disappointed, I'm sure....and another welcome to the family!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


lord raven said:


> I just read your reply post for Hypnos1 and it was took late when I posted my question, thanks
> 
> This is like 700$ amp with extra tubes, base model is 500$. I think a little over my budget, considering I'll still have to pay for the shipment. I am waiting for their reply, price quote.
> 
> Meanwhile I'll continue reading the forum for clues!


 
  
 Hi L R....As Shaffer says, you won't need to spend a great deal more than the $500 to get a really good sound - the stock 6N13S powers are very good indeed, and as previously mentioned a CAREFUL search will turn up some very good used drivers...more expensive ones can wait 'til funds build up later...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 All the best...
  
 C J


----------



## Shaffer

What factor first got you interested in the Elise? As superficial as it may seem, for me it was the name, Feliks. You see, my name is Felix and I certainly wasn't going to let an amp named after me (HA!) pass unnoticed.

What did it for you?


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> FWIW, the optional tubes are not suggested in this thread, so count on the introductory price of $500. The stock tubes aren't bad. Personally, I've paid as little as $12 and $14 for drivers and output tubes respectively. There are so many tube choices it's mind-boggling.


 
 Thanks, great information. I have asked it before, have anyone tried to make an amp of their own with the same company provided tubes? Would that save any money or is it a time wasting venture? Considering the fact that you'll first collect all the parts and then build it yourself.
  
 Regards!


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/765460/feliks-audio-elise-tube-rolling-guide-6sn7-6as7g-6080-5998/15#post_11612301
> 
> there s a thread on the tubes foe Elise...


 
 Thanks, I'll subscribe to it


----------



## Lord Raven

hypnos1 said:


> WELL DONE nephilim...you will not be disappointed, I'm sure....and another welcome to the family!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks hypnos1, gives me some more hope to buy this base model amp


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> What factor first got you interested in the Elise? As superficial as it may seem, for me it was the name, Feliks. You see, my name is Felix and I certainly wasn't going to let an amp named after me (HA!) pass unnoticed.
> 
> What did it for you?


 
 You need to come up with a better reason, you cannot buy everything with your name on it 
  
 I was looking into LDMK series and was wondering what to compare is with and finally hit upon Feliks, now I am stuck! There is another amp called Schiit Audio haha Any reviews and what is the comparison of all three now? Schiit LD, Feliks.
  
 Regards


----------



## Lorspeaker

I once had the LDmk3..old Lyr...LDmk4se. side by side.
mk3 is thinsoundg airy spacious
Lyr is energetic .more closed in ..narrower of sorts...powerful.
mk4se is like a Lyr but with a broader wider wall of powerful sound.

if the elise is even "better" than the mk4se...thats a good sign in my books.


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> You need to come up with a better reason, you cannot buy everything with your name on it




Thankfully, nothing else does, at least that I'm interested in.


----------



## MIKELAP

lord raven said:


> shaffer said:
> 
> 
> > I've driven everything from +30 Ohm K550 and AD900x to 600 Ohm DT880 with the Elise. The AD900x responded particularly well to the amp. The cans became smoother, more resolving and extended on both ends of the spectrum. On the low-end, the ATs sounded like they gained an extra octave of reach. Not what I expected after living with a LDIII, that's for sure.
> ...


 

 It all depends where you live personnally im from Canada and with currency exchange rate and customs a resonnable $500.00 U.S. became almost $800.00 CA so i waited and bought an amp  over here


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> I once had the LDmk3..old Lyr...LDmk4se. side by side.
> mk3 is thinsoundg airy spacious
> Lyr is energetic .more closed in ..narrower of sorts...powerful.
> mk4se is like a Lyr but with a broader wider wall of powerful sound.
> ...


 
 WOW  You're the only guy who could give this comparison.
  
 Now the million dollar question, what will you pick out of these 3 for yourself?
  
 Elise so far is the winner, been reading about it, just need one more sign hehe


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> Thankfully, nothing else does, at least that I'm interested in.


 
  
 Haha you should be glad otherwise you'd be broke all the time..


----------



## Lord Raven

mikelap said:


> It all depends where you live personnally im from Canada and with currency exchange rate and customs a resonnable $500.00 U.S. became almost $800.00 CA so i waited and bought an amp  over here


 
 That's a good idea, I need to save some funds.
  
 I have another idea, I am inclined towards DIY. I can get the schematics, we all know what tubes Feliks is using, power and driver tubes (we can get our personal favorite ones). Then import all the parts, and build it yourself. Would it save some money? And the DIY thirst would be quenched as well.


----------



## MIKELAP

lord raven said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > It all depends where you live personnally im from Canada and with currency exchange rate and customs a resonnable $500.00 U.S. became almost $800.00 CA so i waited and bought an amp  over here
> ...


 

 If you pay $500.00 for an Elise you cant get much cheaper than that for an amp with 6as7 and 6sn7 tubes a Bottlehead Crack DIY amp unassemble i think is $500.00 but doesnt use these tubes so hard to beat i would think .


----------



## MIKELAP

By the way you can buy a Elise with no tubes but you only  save about $50.00


----------



## Lorspeaker

lord raven said:


> WOW  You're the only guy who could give this comparison.
> 
> Now the million dollar question, what will you pick out of these 3 for yourself?
> 
> Elise so far is the winner, been reading about it, just need one more sign hehe


 
  
  
 if i dun have what i have...i would take a chance n hit the BUY button on the ELISE.
  
 ( cant ditch my csp2+.... can give away my DV...
 but the ELISE would kick the Audiogd dac off the coffeetable...
 ...this aint gonna work.. my $ is safe. whew   )


----------



## Lord Raven

mikelap said:


> If you pay $500.00 for an Elise you cant get much cheaper than that for an amp with 6as7 and 6sn7 tubes a Bottlehead Crack DIY amp unassemble i think is $500.00 but doesnt use these tubes so hard to beat i would think .


 
  
  


mikelap said:


> By the way you can buy a Elise with no tubes but you only  save about $50.00


 
 Thanks Mike, I think you're right. You can't go below 500 mark if you want something good and with company's warranty. I suppose DIY kits don't have any kind of warranty.
  
 I sent email to Lukasz if they have a DIY kit, or if they can drop the factory tubes, let's see what he says. Current waiting time is 3 weeks. I asked him to send an unassembled kit so that I don't have to wait


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> if i dun have what i have...i would take a chance n hit the BUY button on the ELISE.
> 
> ( cant ditch my csp2+.... can give away my DV...
> but the ELISE would kick the Audiogd dac off the coffeetable...
> ...this aint gonna work.. my $ is safe. whew   )


 
 Haha your dollar is safe, mine is not until or unless I get a decent tube amp 
  
 Pardon my ignorance but what is csp2+, DV, Audiogd dac? :/ I suppose these are DACs, I know I would want a DAC pretty soon but I will rely on my mobile phone and laptop for a while.


----------



## Lorspeaker

http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB112014/NFB112014EN.htm
 ( this is a dac with an amp combo ..for about 300bucks)
  
 an EXTERNAL dac ( digital to analog converter ) taps the digital signal from your laptop ...
 bypasses the (lousier/noisier?) dac thats built into your laptop...
 supposedly it gives clearer signal to your AMP, which your headfone is connected to. 
 Your amp AMPLIFIES the analog signal coming out of the dac to your headfone.
  
 u will hear TALLER...DEEPER...CLEARER soundstage...
 the leaves rustting in the background of THE LAST SAMURAI will come forth...
 stunning holographic sound u can expect...somewhat. LOL
  
 ======
  
 Csp2+ is a old tube amp from Decware...
 http://www.decware.com/newsite/CSP3.html
  
 Darkvoice DV336se is a tube amp from China...
 uses the same tubes as the ELISE but Elise is DOUBLE BARRELed 
 https://www.massdrop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se
  
 both are popular in headfi once upon a time 
 i picked them up on the cheap in the usedmkt.


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB112014/NFB112014EN.htm
> ( this is a dac with an amp combo ..for about 300bucks)
> 
> an EXTERNAL dac ( digital to analog converter ) taps the digital signal from your laptop ...
> ...




Haha I know that feeling bro, I'm playing all Focal Utopia in my car with Focal Limited Edition Amplifiers 

Thanks for the enlightenment, I found about the Decware before your response, that csp2+ is sitting at 1300$ wow. You were lucky to get them in used condition. Who will sell these? 

By the way, I recently found this website called massdrop, does it really work?


----------



## Lorspeaker

If u live in the USA, should be a piece of cake....mass drop will get it to u as soon as it receives the whole bulk 
N will mail it ut to u.

If u live in timbucktoo like me...then 2months? I waited for my earpads.


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> If u live in the USA, should be a piece of cake....mass drop will get it to u as soon as it receives the whole bulk
> N will mail it ut to u.
> 
> If u live in timbucktoo like me...then 2months? I waited for my earpads.


 
 I don't live in the USA, I live in the KSA  Kingdom of Saudi Arabia 
  
 Can I benefit from Massdrop in my region? I have started voting for stuff already haha
  
 I am almost sold to Elise  I think I will get it soon, only thing that is bothering me, there is not a single reasonable kit available out there. 
  
 I AM A DIY GUY, for heaven's sake!


----------



## Shaffer

These are the only kits that I know of:

http://www.beezar.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=45&osCsid=09821e036acc3e5963336304371f6682


----------



## MIKELAP

lord raven said:


> lorspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > If u live in the USA, should be a piece of cake....mass drop will get it to u as soon as it receives the whole bulk
> ...


 

 Several amp kits here           https://tubedepot.com/products/elekit-tu-8200-stereo-tube-amplifier-kit


----------



## Lorspeaker

http://bottlehead.com/product/crack-otl-headphone-amplifier-kit/


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> http://bottlehead.com/product/crack-otl-headphone-amplifier-kit/


 
 I considered this one but then again you buy the speedball upgrade for 125$, it makes it 404  so close to Elise, isn't it? I guess I'll buy the Elise, I figured it out. I'll drop the stock tubes, it'll be 449$, then add Tungsol for 69 and it'll be 518$. What do you say?


----------



## Lord Raven

mikelap said:


> Several amp kits here           https://tubedepot.com/products/elekit-tu-8200-stereo-tube-amplifier-kit


 
 Amazing website, I have already read about all these kits. Most of them are for speaker, only one or two for headphones but nothing like Elise or LDMK. What do you say?


----------



## Lorspeaker

lord raven said:


> I considered this one but then again you buy the speedball upgrade for 125$, it makes it 404  so close to Elise, isn't it? I guess I'll buy the Elise, I figured it out. I'll drop the stock tubes, it'll be 449$, then add Tungsol for 69 and it'll be 518$. What do you say?



which tungsol....for 69$...for 2tubes?


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> These are the only kits that I know of:
> 
> http://www.beezar.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=45&osCsid=09821e036acc3e5963336304371f6682


 
 Great suggestion, I liked the starving student amp kit  I am definitely starving for tubes haha
  
 Well I don't know how to buy from this website, it is either kit price mentioned or the parts are mentioned individually. I don't know if you can buy the kit with all the part and then add some more parts in the second purchase order or you may drop some items from the kit and add some premium parts. I am leaving the idea of buying the kit for now, make I buy an amp and a different kit on the site to cure the itch of DIY.
  
 Anyway, I have to decide between the LDMK-IV SE and Feliks-Elise.
  
 I have noticed this difference between these two, kindly guide me if it is negligible? MKIV SE does good on the FR, THD, and output and is lower in price than the Elise LOL
  
 The only thing that will convince me to buy Elise is that it is hand made in Poland and the MKIV is Chinese.
  

MKIVFeliks EliseSEPP (Singled-ended Push Pull) OTL in Class-AInput Impedance: 100 kOhmFrequency response: 10 hz~100 Khz (-1dB)Frequency response: 10 Hz - 60 Khz +/- 3 dB (300 ohm)THD+N: 0.1% (100 mW @ 300 ohm)THD: 0.4 % (300 ohm, 20 mW)Power Output:Pre-amp Gain: 20dB500 mW @ 300/600 ohmPower output: 200mW300 mW @ 120 ohmOptimal headphones impedance: 100 - 300 ohm100 mW @ 32 ohm


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> which tungsol....for 69$...for 2tubes?


 
 Feliks provided, matched pair. It will come with the package in this price. What do you say, bro  I am almost hitting the buy button haha..
  
 I have put a comparison between MKIV SE and Elise, your input is also required.


----------



## Lorspeaker

I paid 80$ for one Used tungsol 5998...!

edit...i think FELIKs is giving u options on the smaller 6sn7s only...tungsol n Melz

http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/6SN7-Tube-Types/Melz-6H8C-6SN7GT
something like this but in MATCHed pair which is harder to find.


----------



## Lorspeaker

for the sake of poland....u should just buy this beautiful heavy amp.

I think 6as7tubes are gonna sound huge n lush just by looking at the glAss bulbs..true?! 


=======

later, u can always pick up a USED LDmk4se on the cheap...
and use it as a PRE amp...
the soundstage will stretch out into the desert !! 
i can almost hear the camels trotting...


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> I paid 80$ for one Used tungsol 5998...!
> 
> edit...i think FELIKs is giving u options on the smaller 6sn7s only...tungsol n Melz
> 
> ...




What do you mean by smaller tubes?


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> for the sake of poland....u should just buy this beautiful heavy amp.
> 
> I think 6as7tubes are gonna sound huge n lush just by looking at the glAss bulbs..true?!
> 
> ...




Man I'm not from KSA, I'm from Pakistan. And lol where did the camels come from? 

And I'm not a prince to buy all those amps side by side haha I just bought a car audio amplifier and it was very very costly. 

Poland is definitely the game changer for me  By 6AS7 you mean the default Tubes right?


----------



## Lorspeaker

the bigger (back) tubes are the 6AS7...which Feliks is giving u as russian 6N13S  
  
 the smaller(front) tubes are the 6SN7...u have two options..TUNGSOL n MELZ


----------



## whirlwind

This amp looks pretty intriguing....I may have to do a little research on this.


----------



## Lorspeaker

whirlwind said:


> This amp looks pretty intriguing....I may have to do a little research on this.




whats lacking in your mad ear hd? if any...


----------



## whirlwind

lorspeaker said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > This amp looks pretty intriguing....I may have to do a little research on this.
> ...


 
 Nothing at all, really...it is a great amp...a real work horse.
  
 I just have quite a few tubes that this amp will take that my Mad Ear will not.


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> whats lacking in your mad ear hd? if any...




It's fun having multiple amps. You know that.


----------



## Lorspeaker

lord raven said:


> Great suggestion, I liked the starving student amp kit  I am definitely starving for tubes haha
> 
> Well I don't know how to buy from this website, it is either kit price mentioned or the parts are mentioned individually. I don't know if you can buy the kit with all the part and then add some more parts in the second purchase order or you may drop some items from the kit and add some premium parts. I am leaving the idea of buying the kit for now, make I buy an amp and a different kit on the site to cure the itch of DIY.
> 
> ...




hypnos or shaffer...about the power of the elise...
it says 200mW ...does that mean the Elise is Less powerful than the Mk4se?


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> hypnos or shaffer...about the power of the elise...
> it says 200mW ...does that mean the Elise is Less powerful than the Mk4se?




They're meaningless numbers. Feliks doesn't specify a load and LD doesn't specify a frequency. I can tell you from experience that I've yet to have the Elise past 11 o'clock. Too loud.

The THD numbers are interesting. I don't say that very often, as THD is also a meaningless number. What does THD sound like? Nobody knows. Why? Because, THD, as an entity, doesn't actually exist. Even-order distortion components exist and can be heard. Same goes for odd-order, which we typically identify as "distortion." OTOH, even-order is pleasing to the ear, even euphoric in its scope. Putting all this into action, while having a modded LD sitting next to the Elise (literally), the LD sounds murky and veiled with limited extension, making one think that the Elise's slightly higher THD spec is based on even-order distortion components, which is not a bad thing.

All this being said, there's no correlation between naive specs like THD and sound quality.


----------



## MIKELAP

lord raven said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Several amp kits here           https://tubedepot.com/products/elekit-tu-8200-stereo-tube-amplifier-kit
> ...


 

 Personnally im a big Woo Audio fan but between the Elise and the Littledot i would get the Elise because of the tube complement used what i would do is buy the amp only and buy tubes elsewhere you would save $50.00 on amp you can get tubes you want cheap dont have to be matched pairs you probably wont hear a difference anyway i dont .That's what i would do.


----------



## Lorspeaker

The russian 6N13PJ stock tubes should be "wingedC" ? 
 What about the russian 6sn7, any good?


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> The russian 6N13PJ stock tubes should be "wingedC" ?
> What about the russian 6sn7, any good?




Yes, the output tubes are winged. No idea about the 6SN7s.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> hypnos or shaffer...about the power of the elise...
> it says 200mW ...does that mean the Elise is Less powerful than the Mk4se?


 
  
 Hi L.
  
 I'm sure Shaffer is absolutely spot on re the meaningless nature (in reality) of most of those "specifications"...and as for power, like him, most of my listening is at about mark 4 to 5 (sometimes 3, with my C3gSs!) of 20 - less in fact than my MKIV SE...(with my Beyer T1s)...MORE than enough!!


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> lorspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > hypnos or shaffer...about the power of the elise...
> ...


 
 At full volume does it distort?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Lorspeaker

The Tungsol 6sn7s ....are newly issued, not NOS...? Looks new. Anyone familiar with the performance of this tube?


----------



## whirlwind

I think most people would say any vintage 6SN7 is probably better than any new 6SN7


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> At full volume does it distort?
> 
> Thanks!


 

 Hi ilm2.
  
 Full volume?... you are kidding me, right?!!... At less than half my ears are screaming HELP!... and not the slightest hint of distortion...(I now go to bed profoundly deaf, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > At full volume does it distort?
> ...


 
  Nope not kidding i've done this with all my amps and they don't distort oh except for the Bravoaudio Ocean half way and it's already distorted and no it's not the Headphone distorting.You don't need to put your HP on your head listen to it from the out side of the CUPS so you don't go DEAF.


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy got a pair of Sylvania 6080 WB do they look like yours dont know year of manufacture .got any impressions on this tube somewhere


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> They're meaningless numbers. Feliks doesn't specify a load and LD doesn't specify a frequency. I can tell you from experience that I've yet to have the Elise past 11 o'clock. Too loud.
> 
> The THD numbers are interesting. I don't say that very often, as THD is also a meaningless number. What does THD sound like? Nobody knows. Why? Because, THD, as an entity, doesn't actually exist. Even-order distortion components exist and can be heard. Same goes for odd-order, which we typically identify as "distortion." OTOH, even-order is pleasing to the ear, even euphoric in its scope. Putting all this into action, while having a modded LD sitting next to the Elise (literally), the LD sounds murky and veiled with limited extension, making one think that the Elise's slightly higher THD spec is based on even-order distortion components, which is not a bad thing.
> 
> All this being said, there's no correlation between naive specs like THD and sound quality.


 
 Great advice, thanks. I checked it with Lucasz about the impedance, it is wrongly stated on their website, it is actually from 32-300.
  
 I was talking about, if I upgrade to a higher impedance load, would it still be giving me enough power output? I know you cannot listen to high volumes on headphones for a long period of time.
  
 Well, THD is just a magical number, I heard you cannot hear THD below 1% anyway. I was just wondering there might have been a logical explanation between these differences, and I have found my answer in even harmonics  Thanks!


----------



## Lord Raven

mikelap said:


> Personnally im a big Woo Audio fan but between the Elise and the Littledot i would get the Elise because of the tube complement used what i would do is buy the amp only and buy tubes elsewhere you would save $50.00 on amp you can get tubes you want cheap dont have to be matched pairs you probably wont hear a difference anyway i dont .That's what i would do.


 
 Great advice, thanks mike!
  
 If you drop the tubes, you drop all 4 of them. That means, saving 50 is not worth it  You'll end up buying the power tubes as well and might cost you extra bucks. I check this with the owner.


----------



## mordy

Hi Mikelap,
  
 Congrats on getting the Sylvania 6080WB tubes. From what I can see they look the same as the ones I have, but I cannot see on these pictures if the base is gray plastic, which is what I have.
  
 To me they sound great with just the right amount of everything, and they have great synergy with the C3gS tubes that I use for drivers in the LD MKIII.
  
 Hope to get the Elise soon, and then we'll see how they fare there.


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Great advice, thanks. I checked it with Lucasz about the impedance, it is wrongly stated on their website, it is actually from 32-300.




Good to know. Thanks.



> I was talking about, if I upgrade to a higher impedance load, would it still be giving me enough power output? I know you cannot listen to high volumes on headphones for a long period of time.




My 600 Ohm Beyer DT880 never sounded better. As I said, I've never been able to turn the knob past 11 o'clock. Too loud. There's more than enough power. Some of the other guys use 600 Ohm Beyer T1 with their Elises. FWIW, the Elise sounds significantly more powerful than my mildly tweaked LDIII that cites higher numbers in its specs.


----------



## Lord Raven

Feliks Elise is definitely conservatively rated. MKIV SE is 489$ with all the fancy signature tubes, and Elise is 600$ stock tubes. How much of a difference in SQ would it give me in terms of percentage. Prices I quoted are with shipment to my place. 



shaffer said:


> Good to know. Thanks.
> My 600 Ohm Beyer DT880 never sounded better. As I said, I've never been able to turn the knob past 11 o'clock. Too loud. There's more than enough power. Some of the other guys use 600 Ohm Beyer T1 with their Elises. FWIW, the Elise sounds significantly more powerful than my mildly tweaked LDIII that cites higher numbers in its specs.


----------



## Lorspeaker

The BIGGER tubes are SEXIER...u can STARE at them in the night...all that glow!!
 the smaller tubes in LDmk4se are just...ok..somewhat boring..after awhile.
  
 If u want something less $$...then go for the DV336se, the sound is not weak...
 all my cans, cept the HE6/LCD2..sounds good...600ohms not a problem at all.


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Feliks Elise is definitely conservatively rated. MKIV SE is 489$ with all the fancy signature tubes, and Elise is 600$ stock tubes. How much of a difference in SQ would it give me in terms of percentage. Prices I quoted are with shipment to my place.




I'm not sure how to answer that. From my own perspective, sonically, the Elise is worth many times more than a LD. It's one of a handful of the best sounding components I've heard since I got first high-performance system in '86. Like we keep saying, the Elise exists on a completely different level.


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> The Tungsol 6sn7s ....are newly issued, not NOS...? Looks new. Anyone familiar with the performance of this tube?




I have a pair. Needed the least amount of burnin (~50 hours). The sound is smooth, layered,and fairly balanced from top to bottom. They don't represent the pinnacle of resolution and detail, but the presentation is easy on the ear and relatively involving. I like them a lot more than 50s-era black base/silver script RCAs that sound totally veiled to my ear. I'd put them on the same level as the Russian Fotons.


----------



## MIKELAP

lord raven said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Personnally im a big Woo Audio fan but between the Elise and the Littledot i would get the Elise because of the tube complement used what i would do is buy the amp only and buy tubes elsewhere you would save $50.00 on amp you can get tubes you want cheap dont have to be matched pairs you probably wont hear a difference anyway i dont .That's what i would do.
> ...


 

 No $50.00 is not much but its $50.00 towards better tubes


----------



## Lord Raven

mikelap said:


> No $50.00 is not much but its $50.00 towards better tubes


 
 Bro, I have saved 69$, how do you feel about it now?  Those Tungsol tubes are newly made in Russia as per Lukasz, not even NOS. This might be a new information, that's why I dropped the idea of Tungsol!


----------



## Renderman

lord raven said:


> Bro, I have saved 69$, how do you feel about it now?  Those Tungsol tubes are newly made in Russia as per Lukasz, not even NOS. This might be a new information, that's why I dropped the idea of Tungsol!


 
  
 Thats actually not bad, for 69$ you can get a decent set of tubes if you shop around. Even less if you take the budget advice on the Elise tube rolilng guide!


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> The BIGGER tubes are SEXIER...u can STARE at them in the night...all that glow!!
> the smaller tubes in LDmk4se are just...ok..somewhat boring..after awhile.
> 
> If u want something less $$...then go for the DV336se, the sound is not weak...
> all my cans, cept the HE6/LCD2..sounds good...600ohms not a problem at all.


 
  
 LOL I AM SOLD 
  
 Even if I don't like my first tube amplifier, I will still be able to keep it as a decoration piece in my home.. 
  
 Darkvoice has a lot of good reviews, but there was not of a price difference, so I decided to go for the best


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> I'm not sure how to answer that. From my own perspective, sonically, the Elise is worth many times more than a LD. It's one of a handful of the best sounding components I've heard since I got first high-performance system in '86. Like we keep saying, the Elise exists on a completely different level.


 
 I will experience this soon, God willing! Your feedback helped a lot in making up my mind.
  
 Tell me what is the best, least expensive at the same time, to pair it with a source? I only have a Samsung Note 3 and Hp DV6 laptop at the moment. No EQ on everything, is how I do it!


----------



## Lord Raven

renderman said:


> Thats actually not bad, for 69$ you can get a decent set of tubes if you shop around. Even less if you take the budget advice on the Elise tube rolilng guide!


 
 LOL looks like I made a wise decision  I kept a promise to myself that I will not spend money on tube rolling, sorry! haha


----------



## Renderman

That's Fine, hopefully the guide can still help you make a decision on which tubes to get!  Good luck!


----------



## Lorspeaker

I m convinced Raven.has an oilwell somewhere....he will buy up all the Marconi s in no time


----------



## MIKELAP

lord raven said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > No $50.00 is not much but its $50.00 towards better tubes
> ...


 

 Russian Tungsol are not very good tubes


----------



## hypnos1

Hi folks.
  
 I know this may well not be of practical use to those prospective Elise owners with (presently) limited budgets, but I'm afraid I just have to let the World know of my latest findings!...This may possibly prove a further incentive to those already with top-tier 6SN7s (or adapter-making skills!) who may be considering the Elise.
  
 Having thought my C3g'S'/GEC CV2523 set-up had just about pushed this amp to near its pinnacle of performance (given its modest price!), I have once again been blown away by what it is really capable of delivering - this time by a relatively easy/simplistic(?) mod to my C3g adapters...ie an additional single-crystal copper wire alongside the pure silver one in the g1 signal line.
  
 Whereas the bass response was already of the highest order, I was not prepared for what happened when just one tube was treated to this new addition...dumbfounded hardly covers it. Bass extended even further, without hint of "boom" or "bloat". It remained tight, with even more control and detail definition  - and this increased detail was apparent throughout the entire bass range. This provided an even greater feeling of (controlled) power and dynamism that I suspect is what many would say when comparing the 5998 power tube to the (best) 6AS7G/6080s.
  
 All this without sacrificing any of the refined delicacy of the C3g/GEC combo - at no time did this enhanced bass impinge on any other part of the frequency spectrum...quite staggering...
  
 And so I would surmise therefore that the very best 6SN7s, or equivalent, along with very good power tubes would also take this amp to a truly hallowed level - to say the least! (assuming, of course, equally good accompanying elements in one's system...).
  
 Once again this has shown the Elise to be an amp for relative beginner AND die-hard tube amp lover with deep pockets (for those increasingly expensive "top-tier" tubes) and/or those lucky enough to have amassed a stock pile when prices were not so lunatic - OR those who go along the adapter route..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).
  
 Whatever, it gladdens my heart that this project is now proving its worth and that more lucky souls are going to experience the joy I have had already, and which just keeps growing. My sincerest thanks and admiration once again go out to Lukasz and all the guys at Feliks-Audio...


----------



## Lorspeaker

Hynos becoming an alchemist...copper with silver....
I suspect some gold will be added nextD


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Even better if it is CRYO Treated............


----------



## MIKELAP

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Even better if it is CRYO Treated............


 
 And dont forget that  $100.00 fuse


----------



## i luvmusic 2

mikelap said:


> i luvmusic 2 said:
> 
> 
> > Even better if it is CRYO Treated............
> ...


 
 Yeah i forgot about those and the  Anti Vibration Feet,tube rings and tube coolers.


----------



## Lorspeaker

hehehe...so many ways to spend the money...
anyone game for a cabledyne silver usb cable?
opens up the sonic trottle to another level of holographic joy.


dammmm...I narrowly missed a 157$ osram 6as7 on ebay...my bid...30$.


----------



## Shaffer

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Yeah i forgot about those and the  Anti Vibration Feet,tube rings and tube coolers.




Except that all those thing work, depending on application. Silicon tube damping rings, for example, really do reduce microphonics.

As for cryo, I've never compared treated and untreated tubes, but I do now of many race teams that send parts to be cryo'd for greater strength. It does do something.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I bet it does.
  I have used some CRYO'd RCA Male and Female jacks,VIA BLUE Interconnect Cables,Cryo'd Mogami 2549 interconnect cables,Mogami 2893 Cables for my Q7XX and HD 650 all the TRS are cryo'd,No schiit i just wasted my hard earned $$$.


----------



## MIKELAP

lorspeaker said:


> hehehe...so many ways to spend the money...
> anyone game for a cabledyne silver usb cable?
> opens up the sonic trottle to another level of holographic joy.
> 
> ...


 

 Just won a Sylvania 6SN7 WGT $15.00 shipped nice spare eventually might find another one


----------



## i luvmusic 2

lorspeaker said:


> hehehe...so many ways to spend the money...
> anyone game for a cabledyne silver usb cable?
> opens up the sonic trottle to another level of holographic joy.
> 
> ...


 
 I jump into CABLES and CAPACITORS Rabbit hole how i wish i can hear the difference.
  
 Good luck on your tube search.


----------



## Lord Raven

There is an ocean of tubes out there, if I'm stratified by the sound of the default tubes then I might not change them. I have been using same amplifiers in my systems for 3 years now. I'm consistent  However, if there is just a single pair of tubes that is passionately followed by head-fiers, mention it here so that I keep an eye on it in the sales section  



renderman said:


> That's Fine, hopefully the guide can still help you make a decision on which tubes to get!  Good luck!


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> I m convinced Raven.has an oilwell somewhere....he will buy up all the Marconi s in no time




Do you know that I work for a company called Marconi?  Telecom equipment, optical fiber, that is running Internet and everything haha no oil fields, I believe in solar energy Hehe


----------



## Lord Raven

mikelap said:


> Russian Tungsol are not very good tubes




This is the exact reason I dropped them. I don't know why Lukasz is keeping them as an upgrade to Elise? Marketing tactic maybe? I bet Elise can be home made in less then 500.


----------



## Lord Raven

Pardon my ignorance. That post flew past above my head. Can you post pictures of this mod. The terms used, are new to me. How can a single wire transform sound to this extent. I'm amazed already. Thanks! 



hypnos1 said:


> Hi folks.
> 
> I know this may well not be of practical use to those prospective Elise owners with (presently) limited budgets, but I'm afraid I just have to let the World know of my latest findings!...This may possibly prove a further incentive to those already with top-tier 6SN7s (or adapter-making skills!) who may be considering the Elise.
> 
> ...


----------



## gibosi

lord raven said:


> There is an ocean of tubes out there, if I'm stratified by the sound of the default tubes then I might not change them. I have been using same amplifiers in my systems for 3 years now. I'm consistent
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 As we all have different ears and different gear there is no one set of tubes that everyone likes. That said, I think it is very easy to find tubes that are better than the stock tubes, or even the upgraded tubes offered with the Elise, for not much money. And these just might be good enough. 
  
 For power tubes, Chatham 6AS7.
  
 And for drivers, the most overlooked and best for the buck, in my opinion, are the mouse-ear Tung-Sol 6SN7GT, the short-bottle, heavily-chromed Sylvania 6SN7GT/A from the late 1940's and early 1950's, and the tall-bottle CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT, with white lettering, also from the early 1950's.


----------



## Lorspeaker

always been intrigued by the mouse ear...wats its character


----------



## gibosi

lorspeaker said:


> always been intrigued by the mouse ear...wats its character


 
  
 "Well balanced, rounded tone, reasonably good and tight bass, the highs are smooth and not excessively bright. A good all round tube.”  –Robert H


----------



## Lord Raven

same post happened twice 



lorspeaker said:


> always been intrigued by the mouse ear...wats its character


----------



## Lord Raven

I ran a quick search on eBay, almost nothing is abailable there. What are the expected prices and where to source them from? What else can we add to the list of top favorite tubes for Elise?

-Tung-Sol 6SN7GT Mouse Ear
-Sylvania 6SN7GT/A Short-bottle, Heavily-chromed from late 1940's early 1950's
-CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT Tall-bottle, with white lettering from early 1950's


gibosi said:


> As we all have different ears and different gear there is no one set of tubes that everyone likes. That said, I think it is very easy to find tubes that are better than the stock tubes, or even the upgraded tubes offered with the Elise, for not much money. And these just might be good enough.
> 
> For power tubes, Chatham 6AS7.
> 
> And for drivers, the most overlooked and best for the buck, in my opinion, are the mouse-ear Tung-Sol 6SN7GT, the short-bottle, heavily-chromed Sylvania 6SN7GT/A from the late 1940's and early 1950's, and the tall-bottle CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT, with white lettering, also from the early 1950's.


----------



## Lorspeaker

bro..hold your horses...wait for the amp to arrive, listen to the stock tubes with your can/s..
 see what is lacking, then do some research..and make an ambush on ebay on the type of tubes u need. BE PATIENT....but if  u have shares in Marconi...then buy this.
 http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/QUAD-1940s-Sylvania-USN-JAN-CHS-6SN7W-6SN7-Metal-Base-Vacuum-Tubes-TV-7-Tested-/161694742674?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a5c1f892


----------



## gibosi

lord raven said:


> I ran a quick search on eBay, almost nothing is abailable there. What are the expected prices and where to source them from? What else can we add to the list of *top favorite tubes* for Elise?
> 
> -Tung-Sol 6SN7GT Mouse Ear
> -Sylvania 6SN7GT/A Short-bottle, Heavily-chromed from late 1940's early 1950's
> -CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT Tall-bottle, with white lettering from early 1950's


 
  
 I provided what I think are the best buys for the money. Since everyone has different ears and gear, I do not want to encourage you to buy an expensive top favorite tube only to learn that you didn't like it much. But yes, as Lorspeaker suggested, Sylvania 6SN7W, and I would add, Tung-Sol 6SN7GT with black glass and round plates are up there at the top, but they are expensive.
  
 Getting back to best buys, they are there on eBay:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-tung-sol-6sn7-Date-codes-3225-52-and-3229-13-/181744997694
  
 Notice that not all Tung-Sol "mouse ears" actually have mouse ears. lol. You are looking for tall tubes, bottom getter and grey ladder plates.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/SYLVANIA-6SN7-GTA-PAIR-BAD-BOYS-THREE-HOLES-4-/141674164492
  
 Short-bottle Sylvania "Chrome Domes". The chrome covers more than half of the glass and it is very uneven.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Triple-Matched-Hytron-6SN7-GT-Stereo-Tubes-1950-V-Strong-Balanced-2975-2970-/400924253753
  
 The Hytrons are less common and can be a little more expensive. But rather than purchasing a pair, or in this case, three, you can often pick them up one at a time for not much:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CBS-Hytron-1953-6SN7-GT-Radio-Tube-Results-2260-1925-6-9-6-0-mA-/181738485259
  
 Again, as Lorspeaker suggests, since you don't have an amp yet, take some time to do research:
  
 There is some good information here about the sound of various 6SN7:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 And here you can learn how to recognize and distinguish the many different versions:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/209782/the-6sn7-identification-guide
  
 And finally, there is a ton of information here about all things 6SN7:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts


----------



## Lorspeaker

Tubes are finicky, slotted in one tube, and the soundstage shut down, clump up...
 put in another, the soundstage expanded, but it is a tad too lean and brittle...
 where is that tube 3 changes ago...scratching my head. Think i need a note book to jot down some notes.
 For the moment, it is a lucky draw kinda scenario each nite..close my eyes n pull out a tube. hehe


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> Hynos becoming an alchemist...copper with silver....
> I suspect some gold will be added nextD


 
  
 Aahh...now there's an idea, L...but I suppose I must draw a line somewhere, lol!!


i luvmusic 2 said:


> I bet it does.
> I have used some CRYO'd RCA Male and Female jacks,VIA BLUE Interconnect Cables,Cryo'd Mogami 2549 interconnect cables,Mogami 2893 Cables for my Q7XX and HD 650 all the TRS are cryo'd,No schiit i just wasted my hard earned $$$.


 
  
 Hey ilm2...certainly wouldn't spend TOO much of the hard-earned on all this tweaking - my only real extravagance was the first pair of silver interconnects, before I discovered I could easily make my own silver cables (for the speakers and HD650s also) for a LOT less...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 Cryoing I'm not too sure about - but I think it did do something for my car's front brake discs!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


lord raven said:


> Pardon my ignorance. That post flew past above my head. Can you post pictures of this mod. The terms used, are new to me. How can a single wire transform sound to this extent. I'm amazed already. Thanks!


 
  
 Hi L R.
  
 Making another adapter tomorrow so I'll take some more photos and post as soon as I can manage...
  
 I must admit I was not expecting at all such a transformation - it was just a spur of the moment "oh why not?" thing...how can it - given it is just a very small section of the entire system's signal wiring? That still baffles me...but then, I'm sure there is still much we do not yet know about the strange interaction between elements in complex electronic systems...and which appear to defy normal logic.
  
 I can understand _degradation_ of the sound by using, instead of some really nice wire, a MUCH inferior piece as is part of the 'grid-stopper resistor' used by some when adapting these tubes - something I personally did find to be the case in actual fact... in my own experimentation at least (and another member's...). But the result I heard from a simple additional small piece of wire I do _not_ understand quite so easily!
  
 Ah well, time for a couple more late night tracks...just to make sure I'm not dreaming all this, lol!


----------



## Lord Raven

This post will not help me during the waiting period  Goodluck!
  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> Hi L R.
> 
> Making another adapter tomorrow so I'll take some more photos and post as soon as I can manage...
> 
> ...


----------



## Lord Raven

LOL my horses want to race and complete in the tube world, you're right. I don't need tubes, I need horses! 
  
 Was this a joke? These are more expensive than the Elise itself.. :O
  
 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lorspeaker* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> bro..hold your horses...wait for the amp to arrive, listen to the stock tubes with your can/s..
> see what is lacking, then do some research..and make an ambush on ebay on the type of tubes u need. BE PATIENT....but if  u have shares in Marconi...then buy this.
> http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/QUAD-1940s-Sylvania-USN-JAN-CHS-6SN7W-6SN7-Metal-Base-Vacuum-Tubes-TV-7-Tested-/161694742674?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a5c1f892


----------



## Lord Raven

Bro, I can keep this post in my signature. You're the best! I need to go through all these links and vet them, I don't think I am in a position to reply to your post.
  
 Thanks again! I have a thread to share with you too as a trade. Let me know what do you think?
  
 http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?7406-6sn7-Drivers
  
 Quote:


gibosi said:


> I provided what I think are the best buys for the money. Since everyone has different ears and gear, I do not want to encourage you to buy an expensive top favorite tube only to learn that you didn't like it much. But yes, as Lorspeaker suggested, Sylvania 6SN7W, and I would add, Tung-Sol 6SN7GT with black glass and round plates are up there at the top, but they are expensive.
> 
> Getting back to best buys, they are there on eBay:
> 
> ...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> lorspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > Hynos becoming an alchemist...copper with silver....
> ...


 
 One little suggestion Replace the POT with one of those Chinee ATTENUATOR or ALPS BLUE VELVET These i'am sure that makes a difference(I replaced all my amps POT with this alps with a great results).100K chinee Attenuator on its way for my Passive pre amp the other pre amp i have used Glasswa#@ Audio A3 attenuator with PRP 1% metal film Resistors this A3 sound really quiet and balanced .
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
  
  
  
 And don't worry about these you don't need expensive cables/CRYO'd parts(I used 18awg thermostat cables for my pre amp).


----------



## Shaffer

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I bet it does.




I'm not really sure what to say, as the cryo in the automotive world is being done on the basis of stress testing.



> I have used some CRYO'd RCA Male and Female jacks,VIA BLUE Interconnect Cables,Cryo'd Mogami 2549 interconnect cables,Mogami 2893 Cables for my Q7XX and HD 650 all the TRS are cryo'd,No schiit i just wasted my hard earned $$$.




So what? You couldn't hear it, so that must mean that it has no effect. Very logical.


----------



## Lorspeaker

....wats a POT.....ahhh... nvm 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




​


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> ....wats a POT.....ahhh... nvm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Potentiometer  The volume control, the blue velvet, the ALPS


----------



## Lorspeaker

u recommend changing the pot that came with the ELISE ....?


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> u recommend changing the pot that came with the ELISE ....?


 
 I requested Lukasz to comment on POT, if it is already ALPS then no need to change


----------



## Lord Raven

Just confirmed. It is coming with ALPS.


----------



## Renderman

I thought it would be an ALPS, it has that 'premium' feel when you turn it.  did he mention which ALPS was used?


----------



## Lord Raven

renderman said:


> I thought it would be an ALPS, it has that 'premium' feel when you turn it.  did he mention which ALPS was used?


 
 He said the information is confidential, he only said that the POT is definitely ALPS. I don't even know myself if there are ALPS types, do you mean which 5k 10k 100k? Type?


----------



## Renderman

Yes ALPS makes different models, the standard blue ALPS pot is already very good though. They will almost certainly use a blue ALPS 100K pot.


----------



## Lord Raven

renderman said:


> Yes ALPS makes different models, the standard blue ALPS pot is already very good though. They will almost certainly use a blue ALPS 100K pot.


 
 Is it Blue Velvet or Red?


----------



## Renderman

Probably something like this:
  
 http://audiolights.gr/eshop/images/s2208s-12s.jpg
  
 Don't worry about it, it's a very good pot, no need to change it


----------



## Lord Raven

renderman said:


> Probably something like this:
> 
> http://audiolights.gr/eshop/images/s2208s-12s.jpg
> 
> Don't worry about it, it's a very good pot, no need to change it


 
 That's great, I always wanted to build a blue velvet amplifier, there is a schematic available on-line. I think I might just have found a ready made 
  
 How do you connect it with your music? What are your source points? I only had a Samsung Note 3 and Hp DV6, do you think it will work just fine?


----------



## Renderman

Of course that will work just fine. However in my opinion the Elise is deserving of a much higher quality source like a dedicated DAC. Quite a few members also seem to like the OPPO BDP-105M blu-ray disc player/DAC. Sometimes I use the Elise with my FIIO X3II high res portable music player which works great too!


----------



## Lorspeaker

renderman said:


> Probably something like this:
> 
> http://audiolights.gr/eshop/images/s2208s-12s.jpg
> 
> Don't worry about it, it's a very good pot, no need to change it


 
  
  

  
  
 what kind of POT is this...?  is it of good quality?


----------



## Renderman

I think you might be confused with a very different kind of product Lorspeaker


----------



## Lorspeaker

this item is directly under the vol knob of my tube amp...


----------



## Renderman

lorspeaker said:


> what kind of POT is this...?  is it of good quality?


 
 Looks like a cheapie like this with a cap on it:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/100K-Ohm-Linear-Dual-Taper-Rotary-Potentiometers-Pots-5-Pcs-/391119270708?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b10867334
  
 Can't comment on the quality but it's definitely not an ALPS.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

That doesn't look like alps but i could be wrong the one in the LD's are the cheapest alps and they're  not that bad.The alps blue velvet is way better than the LD's stock pot believed me i've used 6 ALPS BLUE VELVET and they gave you a much quieter background and balanced as well specially in lower portion of the pot.The next option is used the stepped attenuator(around $20-50 each).IMO they are better than the alps blue and no need for you to spend a lot for these attenuators however these attenuators are BULKY they need at least twice as much space than the alps blue.
  
 Something like this.(one of this on it's way for my pre amp)Most of the CRACK HEADS likes this one/type.........
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
  Not this type(pictured below) this one even it said stereo they don't sound good at all at least for me i used them before And i was disappointed.


----------



## Lorspeaker

renderman said:


> Looks like a cheapie like this with a cap on it:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/100K-Ohm-Linear-Dual-Taper-Rotary-Potentiometers-Pots-5-Pcs-/391119270708?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b10867334
> 
> Can't comment on the quality but it's definitely not an ALPS.


 
  


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



it is used on my csp2....shhhhhh


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> One little suggestion Replace the POT with one of those Chinee ATTENUATOR or ALPS BLUE VELVET These i'am sure that makes a difference(I replaced all my amps POT with this alps with a great results).100K chinee Attenuator on its way for my Passive pre amp the other pre amp i have used Glasswa#@ Audio A3 attenuator with PRP 1% metal film Resistors this A3 sound really quiet and balanced .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi ilm2.
  
 I will NOT be messing about with pots, mon ami - no need to!  Have just finished mordy's second C3g adapter (complete with additional g1 SCC wire) and I can confirm I definitely was not dreaming about the difference...now with just the standard C3g accompanying the 'S', I am even more dumbfounded. Not only has bass benefited, but now the already cavernous soundstage is amazingly holographic - with even more 'layers' than Shrek's onion, lol!... Plus detail/separation/placement to die for...this has scrambled my brain BIG time - how on Earth can this be happening?
 I never dreamt this would be the result...not complaining though!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(Well actually I AM - I've now got to re-adapt my own tubes!!).
  
 LR wanted a pic, so here it is...
  

  
 Single-crystal copper + pure silver = audio nirvana!!!
  
 CHEERS...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 By the way....the finished article...
  

  
   





>


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I see you start using a Grid Resistors.
  
 .......
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...........


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


>


 
  
 ONLY on g2 and g3, ilm2....NO WAY on g1, lol!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (At least no detrimental effect on sound then...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> By the way....the finished article...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 nicely done sir.......


----------



## Shaffer

hypnos1 said:


> Hi ilm2.
> 
> 
> LR wanted a pic, so here it is...
> ...




Really nice work. I'm envious.


----------



## hypnos1

i luvmusic 2 said:


> nicely done sir.......


 
  
 Thanks ilm2...a lot of work in these babies - even after all this time lol!!
  
 But worth the effort, to be sure... apologies for ranting on again, but my last bit of midnight magic has been my favourite test piece - music from 'Gladiator' - and my whole being is shaking... especially after 'The Battle'. I am actually lost for words... let me just say this sound is now a million miles from my tube-modded LD MKIV SE.
  
 I shall say no more... it's time for bed!
  
 Oops... thanks too, Shaffer...


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I admire your adapter making............
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Good Night.


----------



## MusclePharm

Im thinking of getting the bottlehead crack with the speedball upgrade, however @Lorspeaker told me abou this Amp (thank you), it looks quite good as far as I can tell. Any idea how it does compare to the Crack?


----------



## Lord Raven

Thanks. Enlighten me here. Is it an adapter for Elise that you made to use different types of tubes on it? I'm such a noon. Looks great. I still don't get the DIY part though. Need some step by step pictorial guide here 



hypnos1 said:


> Hi ilm2.
> 
> I will NOT be messing about with pots, mon ami - no need to!  Have just finished mordy's second C3g adapter (complete with additional g1 SCC wire) and I can confirm I definitely was not dreaming about the difference...now with just the standard C3g accompanying the 'S', I am even more dumbfounded. Not only has bass benefited, but now the already cavernous soundstage is amazingly holographic - with even more 'layers' than Shrek's onion, lol!... Plus detail/separation/placement to die for...this has scrambled my brain BIG time - how on Earth can this be happening?
> I never dreamt this would be the result...not complaining though!  :bigsmile_face: ...(Well actually I AM - I've now got to re-adapt my own tubes!!).
> ...


----------



## gibosi

musclepharm said:


> Im thinking of getting the bottlehead crack with the speedball upgrade, however @Lorspeaker told me abou this Amp (thank you), it looks quite good as far as I can tell. Any idea how it does compare to the Crack?


 
  
 One, the Crack is a kit. You will have to assemble it and of course, if you do a poor job and it sounds lousy, it is your problem. And two, with only one 6AS7, the Crack cannot drive cans with an impedance much lower than 200 ohms or so. If you have high-Z cans, this would not be a problem. But if you hope to use Grados, or planars, for example, the Crack will not do.


----------



## Lorspeaker

musclepharm said:


> Im thinking of getting the bottlehead crack with the speedball upgrade, however @Lorspeaker told me abou this Amp (thank you), it looks quite good as far as I can tell. Any idea how it does compare to the Crack?


 
  
  
 My DV336se is just a singlebarrel 6as7+6sn7 combo...
 but this ELISE is a DOUBLE barrel whammer,
 from what i am hearing out of the DV, this ELISE should more than satisfy.
  
  
 i need u to hit the BUY button..
 say goodbuy to your money, relea$e it.


----------



## MusclePharm

gibosi said:


> One, the Crack is a kit. You will have to assemble it and of course, if you do a poor job and it sounds lousy, it is your problem. And two, with only one 6AS7, the Crack cannot drive cans with an impedance much lower than 200 ohms or so. If you have high-Z cans, this would not be a problem. But if you hope to use Grados, or planars, for example, the Crack will not do.


 
  
 I'm aware of Crack being an DIY kit, but I usually have no problem with such things. I've ordered an HD-650 so hopefully, I won't be needing to use other cans for a long time.
 I'm more interested in the sound quality difference, if anyone has experienced both and can share his opinion, I would be very thankful.
  


lorspeaker said:


> My DV336se is just a singlebarrel 6as7+6sn7 combo...
> but this ELISE is a DOUBLE barrel whammer,
> from what i am hearing out of the DV, this ELISE should more than satisfy.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Even though I believe you and that "DOUBLE" word seems quite tempting, I'm not sure what advantage does a Double barrel whammer gives you... Perhaps someone may enlighten me please?


----------



## Lorspeaker

I am guessing...the start stop...the transient is better...bigger lungs,
like when I was persuaded to move from a 60w to a 150w amp..
the drivers were tightly reigned...complex classical pieces sounded cleaner..
even depth of sound improved...

like a 1000cc vs a 2000cc car...the response time more impressive.

ok...back to the guys who are owners...


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


> Thanks. Enlighten me here. Is it an adapter for Elise that you made to use different types of tubes on it? I'm such a noon. Looks great. I still don't get the DIY part though. Need some step by step pictorial guide here


 
  
 Hi L R.
  
 This is an adapter so as to enable use of the C3g driver tube - this has a different type of pins ("loctal") and they are positioned differently, so wires are connected and re-routed inside the new 6SN7 base after consulting the wiring diagrams for the specific tubes in question - thus ensuring correct matching of heater, grid, anode, and cathode...or else you're in big trouble!!
  
 In this case things are not so straightforward as usual because the C3g is a "pentode" whereas the 6SN7 is a "double triode", so this is a particularly unusual adaptation. And given the Elise isn't specifically configured for the C3g, the amp's versatility in being able to shine with this tube is truly amazing (and somewhat unexpected! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 I don't wish to insult your abilities, but even though you obviously have more experience than I in DIY amp construction this job is fraught with potential problems, many of which are not obvious at first. Unless one has practised a good deal with simple adapters first, I do not really recommend tackling this tricky job...even after having made many different ones up to now I STILL sometimes get caught out with something that at first baffles me, and has me tearing out what is left of my hair lol!!
  
 But if after all this you are still brave enough to go ahead (assuming you go for the Elise!), then I shall happily put together a tutorial - as I did for the Little Dot amps (and as did member MIKELAP)...
  


musclepharm said:


> I'm aware of Crack being an DIY kit, but I usually have no problem with such things. I've ordered an HD-650 so hopefully, I won't be needing to use other cans for a long time.
> I'm more interested in the sound quality difference, if anyone has experienced both and can share his opinion, I would be very thankful.
> 
> 
> Even though I believe you and that "DOUBLE" word seems quite tempting, I'm not sure what advantage does a Double barrel whammer gives you... Perhaps someone may enlighten me please?


 
  
 Hi MP.
  
 As it is still early days re number of lucky Elise owners I suspect it will be quite a long while before we have someone in our club who also has the Crack...I must admit to also being VERY interested as to how they compare.
  
 As per Lorspeaker's "double barrel" reference and gibosi's comments, I'm sure the extra power MUST help deliver a more dynamic, energetic sound - and more importantly, I reckon, with greater control (again as Lorspeaker mentions).
  
 I, and others here - especially Shaffer, who now has a good bit of time under his belt with this baby - can certainly vouch for these qualities, along with a host of others!
  
 Good though the HD650s are - and will up their game given the quality of this amp - from my own experience I must recommend you save up hard for some better cans...the 650s only just begin to display what the Elise is capable of delivering. What comes out of my Beyer T1s is truly amazing - the 650s don't come anywhere near I'm afraid. And I am firmly convinced this is due in no small measure to that "power" we have been talking about...
  
 I'm sure others will soon be able to elaborate on my limited statements...


----------



## Lord Raven

Dear Hypnos,
  
 Thanks for your elaborate response, even though I am far from my first DIY and I have no knowledge of tubes, however, I would still take a chance. You have my go ahead, please put up a tutorial so that I don't mess up 
  
 Elise is coming in couple of weeks, it's cooking in the Poland at the moment  
  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> Hi L R.
> 
> This is an adapter so as to enable use of the C3g driver tube - this has a different type of pins ("loctal") and they are positioned differently, so wires are connected and re-routed inside the new 6SN7 base after consulting the wiring diagrams for the specific tubes in question - thus ensuring correct matching of heater, grid, anode, and cathode...or else you're in big trouble!!
> 
> ...


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


>


 
  
 Hi L R.
  
 I applaud your pluck...and I shall make the instructions as comprehensive as I can - will probably cobble it together using most of my previous info for the LD amps (with the alterations needed for the Elise, of course!), as it took just as long as making the darn' adapters themselves, lol!
  
 But given my previous statements re tackling this job you realise of course this must be AT YOUR OWN RISK!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And you will also, naturally, have to be prepared for quite a long wait for the necessary parts to arrive from China/Hong Kong...and have you begun a search for the C3gs themselves yet? (Does everyone mail to Saudi OK?)...gibosi put me onto a German ebayer who regularly (at the moment!) offers up to 4 Lorenz NOS gold pin tubes at a time, and at a VERY good price of about $20 ea. plus $10 ea. shipping (but don't know about Saudi Arabia...or cost). Link : http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lorenz-C3G-tube-/261880558509?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item3cf94c33ad#shpCntId
  
 Actually, just checked and he does appear to ship to S Arabia and for the same cost...WOW!
  
 Or you could try to find some Siemens tubes - preferably the 'S' variant - but be careful buying used tubes...you must always make sure the dealer is reputable and trustworthy, which can take a fair bit of research!
  
 Anyway, mon ami, it will take a while for me to complete the tutorial, so please be patient! (I shall in fact post it on Renderman's tube rolling guide where it is more appropriate, given this is quite a departure from the original Elise remit...).
  
 GOOD LUCK with everything and CONGRATULATIONS on going for the Elise...you will not be disappointed. Give the amp and stock tubes  (if you went for them) at least 50hrs "burn-in" time before trying any other tubes (if you do have a go at the adapters, I doubt they would be ready for a good while anyway!!).
  
 Whatever, ENJOY your journey into tube land...I suggest you do a bit of general research into this area of hi-fi - it really helps to gain a bit of background knowledge.
  
 CHEERS!


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Elise is coming in couple of weeks, it's cooking in the Poland at the moment




Congratulations! You won't believe this thing when it arrives; it's a serious piece of equipment.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hello Hypnos1,
  
 Thank you so much for the wishes and for taking me seriously  I am anxiously waiting for this post/thread of yours. I just asked Lukasz if they offer something like ready made adapters, he said they have plans to offer upgrades in the future. Also, if you open the Elise you end up voiding the warranty. What do you suggest? I will only know once you do the DIY for all of us, since I am not sure how these adapters are installed, maybe from the top or maybe after opening the amplifier. Risk is always involved, if you don't like the Elise you have 15 days money back guarantee, risk here is covered haha
  
 I just send the german seller a PM, let's see if he can ship it to KSA. I think China and Hong Kong does KSA shipments easily. But I read that there is a duty on the amplifier vacuum tubes, haha The whole kingdom is tax and duty free but the tubes aren't, what the hell? I am sure that the sheikhs know their worth. You're exactly right, I will go slow and not rush into things, I want to enjoy each and every tube moment. I might upgrade my cans also, they give me a strange pain in my ears, when I wear them the top side of the ear touches the inside of the can, it does not feel much but after a while I get pain. Maybe my ears are a little big for these.
  
 I have been into hi-fi for at least more than 5 years now, I so want a DAC. What do you suggest in budget options to pair it with Elise.
  
 Thanks again for your kind wishes, really appreciate it. 
  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> Hi L R.
> 
> I applaud your pluck...and I shall make the instructions as comprehensive as I can - will probably cobble it together using most of my previous info for the LD amps (with the alterations needed for the Elise, of course!), as it took just as long as making the darn' adapters themselves, lol!
> 
> ...


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> Congratulations! You won't believe this thing when it arrives; it's a serious piece of equipment.


 
 Thank you so much Felix  The first thing I will do is, take a lot of sexy pictures and post everywhere haha.. One aim was to get a nice decoration piece for the home.. The wife is not the only person who does that


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Thank you so much Felix  The first thing I will do is, take a lot of sexy pictures and post everywhere haha.. One aim was to get a nice decoration piece for the home.. The wife is not the only person who does that




My wife, who's seen her share of High-End gear travel though our living room, which usually prompted the question, "You're just auditioning that, right," wants me to move a Krell from the top shelf (next to the turntable) and put the Elise in its place. Women.


----------



## Lord Raven

Haha that's obvious, even I predicted it to happen in my case. The thing is too eye catching, I might not remove the protective cover from the amplifier to keep it safe from catching a bad eye 



shaffer said:


> My wife, who's seen her share of High-End gear travel though our living room, which usually prompted the question, "You're just auditioning that, right," wants me to move a Krell from the top shelf (next to the turntable) and put the Elise in its place. Women.


----------



## Lord Raven

Right now, all I have is this haha 

When I switch it on, a hiss is introduced into the music. I don't know if this is the same way with the Tubes. I have a hiss in my car audio tweeters and I'm too lazy to troubleshoot.


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Right now, all I have is this haha
> 
> When I switch it on, a hiss is introduced into the music. I don't know if this is the same way with the Tubes. I have a hiss in my car audio tweeters and I'm too lazy to troubleshoot.




The Oppo is calling your name.


----------



## Lorspeaker

Any owner heard the Wa6se...how would that match up to the ELise..wat kind of sonic diff ?  
 jus need a rough gauge ...
  
 http://www.wooaudio.com/products/wa6se.html


----------



## MIKELAP

lorspeaker said:


> Any owner heard the Wa6se...how would that match up to the ELise..wat kind of sonic diff ?
> jus need a rough gauge ...


 

 Spec. for WA6SE  to start with  .


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


>


 
  
 No problem re the adapters - they just plug straight into the amp's sockets...no warranty-breaking stuff here! And Lukasz did confirm that no damage would be caused by using these tubes (when properly adapted, of course!!).
  
 I fear it could be quite a long while before he considers a C3g model - he must of course get further down the road yet with the original remit I suggested, which is only reasonable...
  
 As for DACs...just as with headphones, I suggest you go for the absolute best you can afford - even if you CAN'T really afford them, lol!!  This amp SCREAMS for really good ancillary equipment - it is SO good. But if all else fails and the budget demands more modest fare for the time being, at least you will still be getting a great sound for such a modestly priced amp and you can rest easy in the knowledge that as funds become available you will be able to make big leaps in performance by upgrading other elements in your system, without having to spend big bucks on another amp. This, I believe, is (just) one of the Elise's many attractions, for both newcomer and well-established aficionado...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Cheers,
 C J
  
 ps. Sorry I can't personally recommend any modestly-priced DACs, but it seems the Schiit Bifrost is well-liked...I suggest trawling other forum threads for more info. I myself am very impressed with the ESS Sabre DAC that is in my Audiolab 8200 CD player, and the Audiolab standalone MDAC is also highly regarded - but neither is cheap I'm afraid. You will have to do a lot of homework methinks! (Not to mention wallet-searching, lol  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> The Oppo is calling your name.




EXACTLY  My eyes are set in an Oppo  DAC is missing in my life and this might be the best choice, I'll have to make tough decisions!


----------



## Lord Raven

That's a huge relief, I'll try building this adapter, while I shortlist some tubes when I order the equipment for this adaptation. Lukasz has big plans like all other tech companies, then there is no product support in the future and you're helpless. I hope he's not like that. 

I have decided that if there's not a reasonable budget DAC out there that would pair with Elise, I will wait and buy Oppo  Can't buy a lot of 200$ DAC and then buy an expensive one. 

I must mention that I'm also into photography and car audio, my wallet is always empty :/



hypnos1 said:


> No problem re the adapters - they just plug straight into the amp's sockets...no warranty-breaking stuff here! And Lukasz did confirm that no damage would be caused by using these tubes (when properly adapted, of course!!).
> 
> I fear it could be quite a long while before he considers a C3g model - he must of course get further down the road yet with the original remit I suggested, which is only reasonable...
> 
> ...


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


> That's a huge relief, I'll try building this adapter, while I shortlist some tubes when I order the equipment for this adaptation. Lukasz has big plans like all other tech companies, then there is no product support in the future and you're helpless. I hope he's not like that.
> 
> I have decided that if there's not a reasonable budget DAC out there that would pair with Elise, I will wait and buy Oppo
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again L R.
  
 I have been reviewing the situation re an adapter tutorial and I'm afraid I shall not be going ahead with it - too many possible problem areas for those not experienced in making them (take my word for it!). Not to mention the hassle of acquiring all the bits needed...
  
 So for everyone's peace of mind, I am happy to make you a set if you are still interested...I also have a spare pair of those NOS Lorenzes if you wish...just PM me if you want to go ahead.
  
 Cheers,
 C J


----------



## Lorspeaker

mannnn...i just bot a soldering iron...arrrrghhh  ...LOL


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> mannnn...i just bot a soldering iron...arrrrghhh  ...LOL


 
  
 SORRY, L...hope it wasn't one of those fancy 'stations', lol!!...but I think you would thank me in the end, given what I have been through to get to a state of STILL not perfection...but _almost!..._   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  ....


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> mannnn...i just bot a soldering iron...arrrrghhh  ...LOL


 
 LOL hypnos just quit the C3G man


----------



## Lord Raven

Hello Hypnos,
  
 I am only worried about acquiring the part, building is not a problem. I built a robot in my Electrical Engineer, once  
  
 However, a great offer though. I will now reply to your PM.
  
 Thanks
  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> Hi again L R.
> 
> I have been reviewing the situation re an adapter tutorial and I'm afraid I shall not be going ahead with it - too many possible problem areas for those not experienced in making them (take my word for it!). Not to mention the hassle of acquiring all the bits needed...
> 
> ...


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> That's a huge relief, I'll try building this adapter, while I shortlist some tubes when I order the equipment for this adaptation.* Lukasz has big plans like all other tech companies, then there is no product support in the future and you're helpless. I hope he's not like that. *
> 
> [...]




I don't think that I'm revealing anything confidential when I say that Lukasz mentioned to me that he's not interested in growing into a big audio company. He wants to stay small (his words) and build handmade components that he's proud of. _I_ added the latter based on the tone of his note and the rest of the text.

More than one audio company has gone under after getting a great review, receiving a multitude of orders as a result, and not being able to fill them in an equitable manner. I think that after filling whichever number of orders Lucasz is needs to cement the Elise into his product line, the price has to go up. For two reasons: The $500 price invites direct comparisons with products like LDIV, which (sonically) have no business being discussed in the same sentence as the Elise, and to make this market aware of its performance envelope. Unfortunately, this community equates cost with quality. Almost as a rule, high-performance firms sell more of their higher prices components than price-limited designs. 

Admittedly, the bulk of my audio experience does not revolve around headphone-based systems. I do believe, though, that I own some of the better headphone amps. The Elise is more than competitive. In terms of speaker amps (I feel a little uncomfortable saying that, because we usually refer to amps as amps and headphone amps as headphone amps), the least expensive amplifier I'd heard comparable to the Elise is a c-j Premier 11A. It cost $3500 20 years ago. Really, when we compare the cost and sound quality of the Elise to the better offerings from non-headphone high-performance audio manufacturers, its price is outright silly, and the thing costs less than a decent phono cartridge. I'm not being hyperbolic.

Or, and perhaps in conjunction with the Elise, introduce an Elise SE: Larger chassis, transformer coupled, tube rectification, higher quality parts in crucial areas of the circuit, power switch on the side or under the chassis, and multiple inputs, At this point, I'd like to officially volunteer to audition the amp. 

BTW, have you guys looked at the underside of the Elise. The vent holes are machined into a Feliks Audio logo. This kind of attention to detail and a European-manufactured, hand-made product for $500? It's almost hard to imagine, not to mention believe that it exists and performs at such a high level. ATM, my Elise is shod with NOS Chathams ans early-50s vintage Sylvania GTAs; the sound is sublime.


----------



## Lorspeaker

Elise SE...tube rectification..?? slurps....Is this in the pipeline within the year?


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> Elise SE...tube rectification..?? slurps....Is this in the pipeline within the year?




Most likely not. It's just something I made up as an idea for an upgraded amp.


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> I don't think that I'm revealing anything confidential when I say that Lukasz mentioned to me that he's not interested in growing into a big audio company. He wants to stay small (his words) and build handmade components that he's proud of. _I_ added the latter based on the tone of his note and the rest of the text.
> 
> More than one audio company has gone under after getting a great review, receiving a multitude of orders as a result, and not being able to fill them in an equitable manner. I think that after filling whichever number of orders Lucasz is needs to cement the Elise into his product line, the price has to go up. For two reasons: The $500 price invites direct comparisons with products like LDIV, which (sonically) have no business being discussed in the same sentence as the Elise, and to make this market aware of its performance envelope. Unfortunately, this community equates cost with quality. Almost as a rule, high-performance firms sell more of their higher prices components than price-limited designs.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Shaffer.
  
 You are absolutely right of course - NO WAY can those poor guys be making any kind of reasonable profit at this price point - ie the sort that helps keep one in business!  Their custom-build side is obviously the main prop...thank goodness!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 As for an SE...please don't give poor Lukasz a heart attack (or should I say _another_ one, lol!!...nor ME, the cost _that_ beauty would have to command...).
  
 Actually S, ssshhh...but I already have an SE... viz my "magic wire" adapted C3gS version (just ask Renderman!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## Shaffer

hypnos1 said:


> Hi Shaffer.
> 
> You are absolutely right of course - NO WAY can those poor guys be making any kind of reasonable profit at this price point - ie the sort that helps keep one in business!  Their custom-build side is obviously the main prop...thank goodness!   .
> 
> ...




001, you're killing me all the talk of C3gS'. My teenage daughter is due to spend he summer in Europe and the bill just arrived [great] , otherwise I'd be begging you to build me a set of adapters. The timing is not in my Elise's favor. :mad:



BTW, between you and me, and everyone else reading this thread, I have an idea for an existing product that can be somehow easily made into an SE, and perhaps something even more cool. I may be willing to be the guinea pig, once the financial obligation is behind me....


----------



## Lorspeaker

shaffer, u are gonna mod the Elise??


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> shaffer, u are gonna mod the Elise??




Absolutely not. I'm not qualified to mod such a fine piece of gear, to say the least, plus I love it as it is.


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> 001, you're killing me all the talk of C3gS'. My teenage daughter is due to spend he summer in Europe and the bill just arrived [great] , otherwise I'd be begging you to build me a set of adapters. The timing is not in my Elise's favor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Aah, the joys of parenthood 007...the cost is something I do NOT miss, being without any of my own (that I know of, that is!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)...mind you, my Koi substitutes probably come very close, lol!!
  
 Perhaps one less night outfit for the gal might just be in order...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...she loves you that much, doesn't she?...(I obviously know nothing about keeping teenagers happy!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## MusclePharm

Anyone here using ODAC with this Amp? How does it sound?
Im thinking of getting some "good" budget DAC and, perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems a good choice...


----------



## Shaffer

musclepharm said:


> Anyone here using ODAC with this Amp? How does it sound?
> Im thinking of getting some "good" budget DAC and, perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems a good choice...




I auditioned the ODAC with a different amplifier; didn't have the Elise at the time. In essence, the ODAC sounded like gravel. The Elise is just as transparent as the amp I used (a Meier Concerto), if not more so; the resulting combo won't differ much. I really haven't heard that many DACs in the last 10 years, perhaps 4-5. I prefer a quality stand-alone player like the Oppo105. I'm mentioning this to qualify a recommendation - an AQ Dragonfly. Its resolution of the recording is head and shoulders above the ODAC and the Modi, the latter of which I own. I'm sure that other can recommend better DACs, depending on how far you're willing to stretch your budget.

The thing to keep in mind is that the Elise is very revealing and transparent, like other high-quality amplifiers, and its sound will reflect what it's fed with, ie. the source material and the DAC. Same as reference-grade headphones.


----------



## Lorspeaker

How would u compare the sound betw these 2 amps..the Meier concerto n the Elise, since u had own each..Shaffer?


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> How would u compare the sound betw these 2 amps..the Meier concerto n the Elise, since u had own each..Shaffer?




Tonally, the two are very similar. Both have a vivid, exciting, detailed presentation. The Elise has no apparent grain and a better sense of depth and space. The Concerto is the bass _quality _champion of my arsenal, and the Elise isn't far behind. At all. Especially surprising for a tube amplifier. They both sound very clear; though, I think the Elise is a touch more resolving. The Concerto is very quiet; music seems to appear from a completely black background. The Elise, slightly less so, but the way it plays music lends a greater sense of reality - body, breath and air, if you will - to what can otherwise sound a bit antiseptic.


----------



## Lorspeaker

thanks Shaffer...sounds promising...
  
 i had the Stagedac+Concerto set b4. 
 Vs my BCL, the Concerto is definitely brighter n more grainy. 
 Sold every one of them.


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> thanks Shaffer...sounds promising...
> 
> i had the Stagedac+Concerto set b4.
> Vs my BCL, the Concerto is definitely brighter n more grainy.
> Sold every one of them.




The Concerto definitely has a flavor that isn't always the best all-around match for even somewhat similar sounding cans. For example, my modified K702, which sound less strident and etched than an unmodified version, sound strident and etched with the Concerto. OTOH, my DT880/600, which tonally sound a little brighter than the modded K702, come across as smooth throughout the spectrum. More vivid than my dark-ish V200, but just as enjoyable. Totally non-fatiguing, unlike the AKG/Concerto combo. I do like the Concerto and plan on keeping it. At this point, I think I've owned it for almost 2 years. It's a good counterpart to the V200.

The thing that drives me a little batty is that now, post-Elise, my LDIII sounds like crap. Regardless of tubes. It still sounds small in scale, somewhat bloated and significantly less resolving. It's the smaller scale and limited resolution that bugs me the most. I don't really want to sell it, as I have a lot into the amp (tubes, adapters), but not a single day goes by when I don't consider listing it.


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> The thing that drives me a little batty is that now, post-Elise, my LDIII sounds like crap. Regardless of tubes. It still sounds small in scale, somewhat bloated and significantly less resolving. It's the smaller scale and limited resolution that bugs me the most. I don't really want to sell it, as I have a lot into the amp (tubes, adapters), but not a single day goes by when I don't consider listing it.


 
  
 Ditto (almost!) with my LD MKIVSE, 007....I feel SUCH a traitor after a VERY long, enjoyable journey with the marvellous guys over at the LDTAVTRolling Guide. She sits up in the loft (attic) and I swear I can hear her pining, lol!...
  
 But even though I took her to the limit, with the adapted C3g'S'/GEC CV2523 tubes, I cannot even summon the decency to bring her back down and sit her next to the Elise (now especially...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).....Aahh, the joys - and sorrows - of this (mad!) hobby of ours...is there ever a REAL end to the journey, with achievement of COMPLETE nirvana?...I sincerely hope so this time!!
  
 (The listing beckons...but obviously a much longer period of mourning is needed...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).


----------



## Lorspeaker

Traitors!,,,

Hey, u guys tried looping in the LD as a Pre to the Elise b4?? How's the effect on the soundstage...the depth especially?


----------



## Renderman

004 Reporting,  
 Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hypnos1*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 This seems like an invitation to express my (non-expert) opinion here and, I feel the C3g deserves this.
  
 The Elise is definitely a very impressive piece of gear however, the adapters and C3g tubes Hypnos1 sent me really transformed this amplifier. The C3gs are so much more detailed, more precise, more resolving and even lower noise then any 6SN7 I have ever heard! (and I've tried quite a few 6SN7s) These little tubes are really on a different level, I have not heard all 6SN7s (variants) but I can not imagine any of them coming close to the C3gs. The step between any 6SN7s is much smaller than that between the best 6SN7 I heard and the C3g.
  
 If you are looking for the most resolving, detailed, analytical tube out there the C3g is the way to go in my opinion, there is no substitute. That having been said, if you want a warmer, smoother, somewhat less defined sound (often associated with tubes) and even some more (harmonic) distortion, a 6SN7 variant might be a better choice for you.
  
 Although Hypnos1's adapters sound excellent, I can't really comment on the OFC (magic) wire as I have not heard the adapters without it.
  


shaffer said:


> Absolutely not. I'm not qualified to mod such a fine piece of gear, to say the least, plus I love it as it is.


 
  
 I would not even think of modding my Elise as it sounds very good as is. At this point I would also like to point out I will not be in the market for an 'upgraded' version of the Elise as what I'm hearing now is perfect to my ears. It is everything I hoped it would be and what I want to hear!
  


shaffer said:


> I auditioned the ODAC with a different amplifier; didn't have the Elise at the time. In essence, the ODAC sounded like gravel.





> The thing to keep in mind is that the Elise is very revealing and transparent, like other high-quality amplifiers, and its sound will reflect what it's fed with, ie. the source material and the DAC. Same as reference-grade headphones.


  

 I wholeheartedly agree with Shaffer here, the O2 dac does not come close in resolution to the Elise. I would recommend a much higher quality DAC such as the Benchmark DAC2. I've only briefly auditioned the Oppo BDP-105 but what I heard was very good indeed.
  
 This is coming from someone with very limited experience regarding tubes. I always thought solid-state surpassed tubes a long time ago. I was wrong. I have built my own very high quality solid state headphone amplifier (140dB SNR, Less than 0,001% THD) which is very resolving but... it just lacks the sense of presence, soundstage and warmth the Elise has and, with the C3gs, she is just as resolving.
  
 To me the Elise with the C3gs is the best of both worlds. The precision and analytical resolution of sold-state with the warmth and soul of tubes.
  
 Not trying to push anyone into anything  It's just that in my experience at least. This has to be heard to be believed.
  
 Thanks Hypnos1 for this experience!


----------



## Shaffer

Geeezz, R, great post. 001 has a few spare parts and is kind enough to make me a set of adapters, as well. After reading your post, I''m borderline salivating.


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> This seems like an invitation to express my (non-expert) opinion here and, I feel the C3g deserves this.
> 
> The Elise is definitely a very impressive piece of gear however, the adapters and C3g tubes Hypnos1 sent me really transformed this amplifier. The C3gs are so much more detailed, more precise, more resolving and even lower noise then any 6SN7 I have ever heard! (and I've tried quite a few 6SN7s) These little tubes are really on a different level, I have not heard all 6SN7s (variants) but I can not imagine any of them coming close to the C3gs. The step between any 6SN7s is much smaller than that between the best 6SN7 I heard and the C3g.
> 
> ...


 
  
 And thank YOU, R, for putting into words (as has Shaffer) just what the Elise is capable of delivering - and filling in gaps in my own limited knowledge/vocabulary.
  
 I too have felt the Elise (especially with the C3gs) seems to bridge the gap between "affordable" SS amps and the traditional "tubey" sound of tubes, lol!...and for me too this is what I have been seeking and am now enjoying immensely....
  
 Thanks Lukasz....


----------



## Shaffer

hypnos1 said:


> [...]
> 
> Thanks Lukasz....




Yes, absolutely.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Geeezz, R, great post. 001 has a few spare parts and is kind enough to make me a set of adapters, as well. After reading your post, I''m borderline salivating.


 
 Darn it! The whole point of my post was to make you salivate!


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> And thank YOU, R, for putting into words (as has Shaffer) just what the Elise is capable of delivering - and filling in gaps in my own limited knowledge/vocabulary.
> 
> I too have felt the Elise (especially with the C3gs) seems to bridge the gap between "affordable" SS amps and the traditional "tubey" sound of tubes, lol!...and for me too this is what I have been seeking and am now enjoying immensely....
> 
> Thanks Lukasz....


 
  
 Thank you Feliks Audio, Henryk Feliks did a lot of things right designing this amplifier!


----------



## gibosi

renderman said:


> The Elise is definitely a very impressive piece of gear however, the adapters and C3g tubes Hypnos1 sent me really transformed this amplifier. The C3gs are so much more detailed, more precise, more resolving and even lower noise then any 6SN7 I have ever heard! (and I've tried quite a few 6SN7s) These little tubes are really on a different level, I have not heard all 6SN7s (variants) but I can not imagine any of them coming close to the C3gs. The step between any 6SN7s is much smaller than that between the best 6SN7 I heard and the C3g.
> 
> If you are looking for the most resolving, detailed, analytical tube out there the C3g is the way to go in my opinion, there is no substitute. That having been said, if you want a warmer, smoother, somewhat less defined sound (often associated with ) and even some more (harmonic) distortion, a 6SN7 variant might be a better choice for you.


 
  
 While I would agree that the C3g is more resolving than the 6SN7, the linearity and distortion is about the same. Yes, it is true that when used as a pentode, the C3g is among the very best in terms of these measurements, but strapping it as a triode reduces linearity and increases distortion to levels very comparable to the 6SN7. But for sure, if detail, resolution and an analytic presentation are most important, the C3g is superior to the 6SN7. However, for those of us who value tone, imagery, staging, and so forth, as well as detail, the 6SN7 more than holds it own.
  
 The C3g world includes only two choices that we know of - Siemenes and Lorenz. While both are excellent, still not much of a choice. The 6SN7 world is vast with hundreds of choices covering  some 70 years of production from factories all over the world. And with such a huge number of unique choices it is certainly possible to very precisely tailor the sound to suit.
  
 Now, we all know that audio is terribly subjective, and this is just my my opinion, but while I find both of the C3gs to be extremely good, they do not outclass a Sylvania 6SN7W or Tung-Sol 6SN7 RPBG or any number of others. To my way of thinking, each has different strengths and weakness, but no one tube is undeniably the best.
  
 Also, since rolling C3gs in the Elise is about as radical as one can get, perhaps some might want to consider rolling something much less extreme: 10,000 hour premium double triodes, all with exceptional linearity and low distortion, E80CC/6085, E88CC/6922, E182CC/7119 and E188CC/7308. In each case, only simple pin-adapters are required. And again, in my opinion, these are every bit as good as the C3g and 6SN7, but again, slightly different.
  
 To paraphrase a colleague, when you are talking about top tier tubes, there is no black and there is no white, only very slightly different shades of gray...


----------



## nephilim

Reading all this I wish I had mine already!! Production seems to be delayed... another 2 weeks. Patience


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> While I would agree that the C3g is more resolving than the 6SN7, the linearity and distortion is about the same. Yes, it is true that when used as a pentode, the C3g is among the very best in terms of these measurements, but strapping it as a triode reduces linearity and increases distortion to levels very comparable to the 6SN7. But for sure, if detail, resolution and an analytic presentation are most important, the C3g is superior to the 6SN7. However, for those of us who value tone, imagery, staging, and so forth, as well as detail, the 6SN7 more than holds it own.
> 
> The C3g world includes only two choices that we know of - Siemenes and Lorenz. While both are excellent, still not much of a choice. The 6SN7 world is vast with hundreds of choices covering  some 70 years of production from factories all over the world. And with such a huge number of unique choices it is certainly possible to very precisely tailor the sound to suit.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi g.
  
 Yes indeed, a wonderful array of choice...sometimes one might say TOO big, lol! You yourself are very fortunate in many ways - you have managed to amass an incredible collection of extremely good tubes and most, I suspect, not at break-the-bank prices...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 Most of those REALLY good 6SN7s are now very hard to find at more reasonable prices alas...unless one is EXTREMELY lucky methinks : a. To actually hit on them just right.
 b. To find a "bargain" price.
 c. To do so from a reliable, trustworthy seller.
  
 And I personally never found any of the many other (very good) double triodes we used in our LDs to match the C3g in most areas - as have nearly all those who eventually adopted the C3g...
  
 Shades of gray... certainly. Personal preference..._most_ certainly!
  
 I think what I may have achieved in experimenting with the C3g in the Elise has been to demonstrate its versatility and capabilities - only as others experiment with different tubes (hopefully some top-tier ones!) can we get any kind of meaningful concensus. But even then, SO much depends also on each individual's set-up - there are so many variables, of course...
  
 And so I very much look forward to Shaffer's and mordy's impressions and comparisons (I have Renderman's already!!)...not to mention anyone prepared to let me have a pair of Tung Sol BGRPs for a song, lol!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 CHEERS,
 C J


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> And I personally never found any of the many other (very good) double triodes we used in our LDs to match the C3g in most areas - as have nearly all those who eventually adopted the C3g...


 
  
 It is important to remember that the LD was designed to use the 6AK5, a triode-strapped pentode. And as a result, the biasing, designed for the 6AK5, is much, much closer to that required for the C3g, then it is for a 6SN7. So it is not surprising that the C3g sounds significantly better than any of the medium-mu triodes in our LDs.
  
 But of course, the Elise is a very different animal. It is designed around the 6SN7. And the biasing of a 6SN7 is very similar to that required by these premium double triodes, and very different to that required for a C3g. In your C3g adapter, you have been able to compensate for much of this difference, but these double triodes are good to go with nothing more than simple pin-adapters.
  
 And I can assure you that these premium double triodes will sound much better in an Elise than in an LD. At least, they certainly do in my Glenn. 
  
 So again, I strongly believe these premium double triodes are well worth a try in the Elise.


----------



## Renderman

gibosi said:


> It is important to remember that the LD was designed to use the 6AK5, a triode-strapped pentode. And as a result, the biasing, designed for the 6AK5, is much, much closer to that required for the C3g, then it is for a 6SN7. So it is not surprising that the C3g sounds significantly better than any of the medium-mu triodes in our LDs.
> 
> But of course, the Elise is a very different animal. It is designed around the 6SN7. And the biasing of a 6SN7 is very similar to that required by these premium double triodes, and very different to that required for a C3g. In your C3g adapter, you have been able to compensate for much of this difference, but these double triodes are good to go with nothing more than simple pin-adapters.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Objection! Conjecture!
  
 Measure it, listen to it and I would be happy to read about your experience. So far the C3gs sound wonderful in the Elise. If they are performing at their absolute best is of lesser importance. These provide a lot of musical enjoyment for a very acceptable price. There might be better (suited) tubes out there but these sound a perfect as I need them to be. The C3gs are not coming out anytime soon and I'm sure I will enjoy these for a long time.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> It is important to remember that the LD was designed to use the 6AK5, a triode-strapped pentode. And as a result, the biasing, designed for the 6AK5, is much, much closer to that required for the C3g, then it is for a 6SN7. So it is not surprising that the C3g sounds significantly better than any of the medium-mu triodes in our LDs.
> 
> But of course, the Elise is a very different animal. It is designed around the 6SN7. And the biasing of a 6SN7 is very similar to that required by these premium double triodes, and very different to that required for a C3g. In your C3g adapter, you have been able to compensate for much of this difference, but these double triodes are good to go with nothing more than simple pin-adapters.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, g, it looks like my adapter-making days are set to continue if what you say is true about my own stash of double-triodes (but not as extensive as yours!). Could be REAL interesting to see how they perform in the Elise...I will _try_ to keep an open mind, lol!...(So much to do, so little time...).


----------



## Lorspeaker

If the double triodes work on the Elise, I hav another reason to get one...I have a box of those sleeping....

I need someone to strap the LD into the loop as a pre...u guys taken it down from your attics yet??


----------



## i luvmusic 2

My MK III's pre out is noisy....


----------



## gibosi

renderman said:


> Objection! Conjecture!
> 
> Measure it, listen to it and I would be happy to read about your experience. So far the C3gs sound wonderful in the Elise. If they are performing at their absolute best is of lesser importance. These provide a lot of musical enjoyment for a very acceptable price. There might be better (suited) tubes out there but these sound a perfect as I need them to be. The C3gs are not coming out anytime soon and I'm sure I will enjoy these for a long time.


 
  
 Conjecture? A close examination of the data sheets supports my statement that the correct bias for a 6SN7 is very different than that for a C3g. And that the correct bias for the above mentioned premium double triodes is much closer to a 6SN7 than it is to a C3g. The only conjecture is that these premium double triodes will sound better in the Elise than they do in the LD. A very conservative prediction, I believe.
  
 But to the point of your post, no one is suggesting that you replace the C3g with anything. However, I doubt H1 is prepared to make adapted C3gs for everyone who purchases an Elise, and.... I doubt that everyone who purchases an Elise will also decide to purchase adapted C3gs. So what I am suggesting is that for those who wish to roll beyond the 6SN7, 7N7 and 6F8G, these premium double triodes may well be worth looking into.


----------



## 2359glenn

The cathode resistor for the 6SN7 is way wrong for the C3g
 I think I told H1 to hook it to both of the 6SN7 cathodes to bring it down closer to what the C3g needs.
 Don't know if he done that though.


----------



## Lord Raven

Guys, I just read the last two pages, hell lot of information for a newbie. My Elise is coming soon and I am already thinking about adapters and tube rolling, how bad is it?


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Guys, I just read the last two pages, hell lot of information for a newbie.* My Elise is coming soon and I am already thinking about adapters and tube rolling, how bad is it?*




Perfectly normal.


----------



## Renderman

lord raven said:


> Guys, I just read the last two pages, hell lot of information for a newbie. My Elise is coming soon and I am already thinking about adapters and tube rolling, how bad is it?


 
  
 Just wait until you hear the Elise, you will _know_ there is even more performance to be had from this little amp. At least, that was my experience...


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> The cathode resistor for the 6SN7 is way wrong for the C3g
> I think I told H1 to hook it to both of the 6SN7 cathodes to bring it down closer to what the C3g needs.
> Don't know if he done that though.


 
  
 Hi Glenn.
  
 I did indeed...THANKS!...and no untoward consequences...(the opposite in fact!!).
  
 But I'm afraid - as you will probably have gathered by now - I don't now put that resistor on g1...it degraded the sound something awful (as iluvmusic2 also found), even after a reasonable burn-in (and I did use a very good quality one). I can understand the circumstances that prompt you to use them but as with the Little Dots, I (and others) have found they are by no means always necessary. There is indeed some truth in the old saying : "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" lol!
  
 And the exact opposite in fact happened when instead I added that single-crystal copper wire to the pure silver one (sorry for keep repeating this)...pure magic!
  
 So once again my sincere thanks go to you...as well as the Feliks-Audio guys...


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> If the double triodes work on the Elise, I hav another reason to get one...I have a box of those sleeping....
> 
> I need someone to strap the LD into the loop as a pre...u guys taken it down from your attics yet??


 
  
 Hey L.
  
 Before I have my better half complaining I've "spoilt" the now neat look on the top of my rack, I need some REAL convincing that placing the LD between things that have far better electronic components in them - especially the Audiolab 8200CD, or Shaffer's Oppo 105 - is going to improve(?!) matters. I simply cannot get my head around the "pure" signal from the Audiolab's ESS Sabre DAC straight into the Elise being anything other than _degraded_ by such an action....but I'm open to being proved otherwise....


----------



## Lorspeaker

its the law of sonic qualitative aggregation..
and.the law of cummulative ezpansive separation In play.

the intrinsic quality of each gear component will be added onto the resultant sound...

and each gear will expand to the.next degree, what has already been sonically separated by the prior.

selah


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> its the law of sonic qualitative aggregation..
> and.the law of cummulative ezpansive separation In play.
> 
> the intrinsic quality of each gear component will be added onto the resultant sound...
> ...


 
  
 Sounds very interesting, L...am gonna have to do a LOT of homework, lol!
  
 But what about the intrinsic faults/weaknesses of an inferior link?...methinks I'm still going to take a lot of convincing!! 
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Lorspeaker

Grasshopper, Minor deaths will be swallowed up in the major compounded victories.


----------



## MIKELAP




----------



## i luvmusic 2

hypnos1 said:


> 2359glenn said:
> 
> 
> > The cathode resistor for the 6SN7 is way wrong for the C3g
> ...


 
 I did swapped different types/brand of resistors they all sound bad with my adapters/MK III so off they go.


----------



## Lord Raven

Updating my Jazz collection while I patiently wait for my Elise 

http://www.udiscovermusic.com/50-greatest-jazz-albums-ever
  
 I am a tube addict already!
  
 Quote:


shaffer said:


> Perfectly normal.


 
  
 Your suggestion is valuable  Thanks, I will give proper break-in time to the default tubes before I mess things up  I don't have a DAC  and it's 2015 :/
  


renderman said:


> Just wait until you hear the Elise, you will _know_ there is even more performance to be had from this little amp. At least, that was my experience...


----------



## Shaffer

Don't feel odd, LR. I'm 51 and the first DAC I ever purchased with my own money was less than 2 years ago. A Modi. Horrible sound in my main system. On my office desk driving the very clear sounding, but ultimately much less resolving AE A5+, playing 320 Spotify, it's not too bad. OK, it still sucks; I don't really notice it as much, but I digress....

This is a young forum, population-wise, and many systems are computer based. There's no computer in my (real) system; can't think of a reason to have one. The Oppo has a HDD hooked into it, so listening to a file is about as difficult as biting an apple, and I use it to check out unsigned bands on Bandacamp. Just don't need a DAC. Before getting the Oppo105, I was a 85% analog guy. Now it's about 50:50, having had a lot of gear make its way through my system, I honestly don't believe his would have been possible with any other digital source. I mean, I've had DACs in the $10K range in my rack. Couldn't wait to spin an LP; it was like taking a shower. The Oppo, like the Elise in this respect, is a different animal.

Edit: typo


----------



## Lord Raven

Thanks for the comforting words Felix  

A friend is in Chicago, he can carry Oppo 105D to my home country, but the website doesn't have Chicago on their list. I'm so frustrated :/

Need help, how can I buy in Chicago? 

I tried, bestbuy, Walmart, RadioShack, nothing available on their websites. 

I'm not going to miss this opportunity. 



shaffer said:


> Don't feel odd, LR. I'm 51 and the first DAC I ever purchased with my own money was less than 2 years ago. A Modi. Horrible sound in my main system. On my office desk driving the very clear sounding, but ultimately much less resolving AE A5+, playing 320 Spotify, it's not too bad. OK, it still sucks; I don't really notice it as much, but I digress....
> 
> This is a young forum, population-wise, and many systems are computer based. There's no computer in my (real) system; can't think of a reason to have one. The Oppo has a HDD hooked into it, so listening to a file is about as difficult as biting an apple, and I use it to check out unsigned bands on Bandacamp. Just don't need a DAC. Before getting the Oppo105, I was a 85% analog guy. Now it's about 50:50, having had a lot of gear make its way through my system, I honestly don't believe his would have been possible with any other digital source. I mean, I've had DACs in the $10K range in my rack. Couldn't wait to spin an LP; it was like taking a shower. The Oppo, like the Elise in this respect, is a different animal.
> 
> Edit: typo


----------



## Lord Raven

I don't get this psychology of yours  Your system is as good as the weakest link within it, my psychology. Hope you get it lol



lorspeaker said:


> its the law of sonic qualitative aggregation..
> and.the law of cummulative ezpansive separation In play.
> 
> the intrinsic quality of each gear component will be added onto the resultant sound...
> ...


----------



## Renderman

lord raven said:


> I don't get this psychology of yours
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I agree with Lord Raven and Hypnos1 here. Your system is only as strong as it's weakest link.
  
 Did a quick test with my Little Bear P8 hooked into the Elise. There was a slightly bigger but more congested soundstage and the whole sound was just more smeared, details muffled... not a succes in my book.
  
 On another note, my GEC A1834 / 6AS7Gs arrived and these are absolutely new, they look stunning and measure like new. Will report back in after burn-in. (Feels weird burning-in something more than 60 years old!)
  
 Will report back in when there is time to form an opinion on these.
  
  
 Hope you get that Oppo Lord Raven!


----------



## Lorspeaker

_*Big doors turn...on small hinges.*_
  
 I am hopeful of the cleaner  littleDots making a difference...
 that littleBear dun seem to cut it, in terms of clarity(?)  but u did say the soundstage gotten BIGGER ...
 the noise of the littlebear got expanded n amplified together with the music.
  
 My theory holds...at a certain baseline. LOL


----------



## Renderman

lorspeaker said:


> _*Big doors turn...on small hinges.*_
> 
> I am hopeful of the cleaner  littleDots making a difference...
> that littleBear dun seem to cut it, in terms of clarity(?)  but u did say the soundstage gotten BIGGER ...
> ...


 
 To each his own Lorspeaker! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 If you want the biggest possible soundstage and don't care about things like noise, clarity, detail and precision I say go for it and enjoy the heck out of it!
  
 By now you really should get an Elise and bring your own theory into practice. Then come back here and tell us your findings, I for one would be interested.


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Thanks for the comforting words Felix
> 
> A friend is in Chicago, he can carry Oppo 105D to my home country, but the website doesn't have Chicago on their list. I'm so frustrated :/
> 
> ...




Your friend should give Oppo a call. Most likely, he'll have to leave a message, but they're very quick to respond. They have very good customer service.


----------



## Anathema123

Well done, Shaffer, you managed to convince me. (I asked about amps in the HD 650s thread and you brought up the Elise, and here we are...)
  
 It's a tad cheaper than the WA6, but _much_ cheaper to import. It doesn't sit well with me to pay almost $300 to import a $700 dollar amp. Feels nice to buy from a small company, and I like the idea that it's built in Europe.
  
 Will be using the Elise with an uber Bifrost and my HD 650s. I'm trying to temper my excitement, since I expect I'll have to wait for a good while before the Elise gets here.
  
 Should be a significant upgrade over my very entry-level FiiO E7/E9 combo!


----------



## MIKELAP

anathema123 said:


> Well done, Shaffer, you managed to convince me. (I asked about amps in the HD 650s thread and you brought up the Elise, and here we are...)
> 
> It's a tad cheaper than the WA6, but _much_ cheaper to import. It doesn't sit well with me to pay almost $300 to import a $700 dollar amp. Feels nice to buy from a small company, and I like the idea that it's built in Europe.
> 
> ...


 

 That's funny i didnt buy an Elise for the same reason $500.00 amp $300.00 import so got a used WA22 in my neck of the woods instead but not cheaper lol.


----------



## mordy

Hi Lord Raven,
  
 Why can't you order the Oppo from Amazon.com and have it sent to your friend in Chicago? They have service where you can get it in one or two days if you need it quickly.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=oppo+bdp+105&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=13487253810&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2137687579783254849&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_1zjgnypn0s_b


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Hi Lord Raven,
> 
> Why can't you order the Oppo from Amazon.com and have it sent to your friend in Chicago? They have service where you can get it in one or two days if you need it quickly.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=oppo+bdp+105&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=13487253810&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2137687579783254849&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_1zjgnypn0s_b




Great idea!


----------



## Lord Raven

Dear Felix, I have exchanged several emails with Oppo support. They're willing to help but they can't. They told me up look for dealers in Chicago, I liked up and 16 results showed. I tried websites of top four results but none of them had Oppo 105D, only many 103. I'll ask Amazon to ship it to my friend's hotel room, I hope it's possible. 

I have a question, I live in Saudi Arabia, do I need region free version? Which is my available on Oppo website or Amazon. Oppo said, they don't encourage the region free version but some vendors hack into it and supply region free. I have 220v supply, Oppo said that the standard version can be used with any supply from 110 to 220. My question is, if I buy from them at 1299$,do I need to hack later on to work in my region? I guess if supply is not an issue then I don't have problem playing the discs? I'll mostly use it with digital media. Please help! 



shaffer said:


> Your friend should give Oppo a call. Most likely, he'll have to leave a message, but they're very quick to respond. They have very good customer service.


----------



## Lord Raven

Thanks Mordy, do they ship in the hotel rooms? I am trying to get it this way, it'll save me some 300$. Nearest dealer I have is in Arab Emirates, he quoted 1635$ for an Oppo that is region free and having 2 years warranty, I'll pay another 100$ to have it shipped to my location. Why is it so hard to buy things online? Even when I'm living in a tax free country. 



mordy said:


> Hi Lord Raven,
> 
> Why can't you order the Oppo from Amazon.com and have it sent to your friend in Chicago? They have service where you can get it in one or two days if you need it quickly.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=oppo+bdp+105&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=13487253810&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2137687579783254849&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_1zjgnypn0s_b


----------



## mordy

Here is a link about Amazon shipping to hotel rooms with detailed advice:
  
 http://www.amazon.com/gp/forum/cd/discussion.html?cdForum=Fx20DX5GEB7TUX8&cdThread=Tx1OXBS7P7VBV69
  
 Also sounds like a good idea to discuss the shipping and payment with Amazon directly as well:
  
 http://gethuman.com/phone-number/Amazon-com/
  
 BTW, if you have a problem with a large company, this website is very helpful to get a phone number that works and gets you to somebody you can talk to - gethuman.com


----------



## Shaffer

Well, after much deliberation, I've decided to sell my LDIII. I'll list it as soon as I can get some decent pics.

Here's what I have:

_LDIII - I'm the original owner, the amp is about 18 months old. Perfect condition. The stock volume knob was replaced with a larger, heavier machined knob for smoother operation. The stock knob is included.

Tubes:

Voshkod 6ZH1P-EV - brand new pair
Full sleeve of JAN GE 5654w - (5 tubes, never used)
Full sleeve of GE 6HM5 - (5 tubes, 3 never used, 2 have less than 50 hours)
Telefunken 6HM5 - Tall bottle, less than 50 hours
Yugo 6HM5 - 4 tubes, brand new

Stock output tubes
Russian 6N6N-i - (50 hours, OTK stamp)

Adapters for 6SN7 tubes to replace the stock output tubes. Check the LD tube rolling thread and see what a difference it makes. You get everything you need, including a pair of matched RCA 6SN7GTB
_

My question: How much do you guys think I should ask for this?


----------



## Lord Raven

I asked my friend to call Amazon, he did, and they said it would take them 5 days using FedEx ground services to deliver to his hotel. He is staying only till 11th, I think I am a little late :'(
  
 I wish Oppo was available on a store or something, I am asking my friend to call Oppo service center and get a shop address to buy personally. This is my last chance. Thanks Mordy bro, really appreciate your support. Even if I don't get it, at least I tried!
  
 Quote:


mordy said:


> Here is a link about Amazon shipping to hotel rooms with detailed advice:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/forum/cd/discussion.html?cdForum=Fx20DX5GEB7TUX8&cdThread=Tx1OXBS7P7VBV69
> 
> ...


----------



## Lord Raven

First of all, good luck with the sale  Secondly, the glass never gets old, therefore, ask whatever price comes into your mind 
  
 Quote:


shaffer said:


> Well, after much deliberation, I've decided to sell my LDIII. I'll list it as soon as I can get some decent pics.
> 
> Here's what I have:
> 
> ...


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> Hynos becoming an alchemist...copper with silver....
> I suspect some gold will be added nextD


 
  
  


lorspeaker said:


> its the law of sonic qualitative aggregation..
> and.the law of cummulative ezpansive separation In play.
> 
> the intrinsic quality of each gear component will be added onto the resultant sound...
> ...


 
  
 Now then L, although I'm still not 100% convinced the LD as pre to the Elise would improve things - since it does NOTHING better than my own particular Elise set-up, at least - you HAVE encouraged me to act on your suspicion re *GOLD*, lol!...due in your own (or someone else's!) words to that law of "sonic qualitative aggregation", which I most certainly found when adding single-crystal copper to the pure silver. The former did an amazing job of answering ALL the 'criticisms' of the latter, plus adding more than a little bass magic and energy....actually, HEAPS of it - especially now I've put some in the strapped grid to anode line as well!!
  
 And so, having checked out what the REALLY big boys are doing with different metal combinations - especially in the signal line - I have 8cm of 24K gold wire on the way...I would certainly NOT be wanting to make some interconnects($$$$$$$) with it though, lol!  But based on my results so far I've just GOT to have a go...but please don't go suggesting anything else, L....Kryptonite, for example?!!
  
 Cheers,
 C J


----------



## Lorspeaker

fantastic....u are having FUN, adding a goldensheen of honey to that sound  !!


----------



## mordy

Hi L R,
  
 We don't give up so fast - there is a Hi Fi Record and Equipment store in Chicago called MusicDirect. According to their website they have the Oppo 105 in stock.
  
 http://www.yelp.com/biz/music-direct-chicago
  
 http://www.musicdirect.com/p-178526-oppo-bdp-105-darbee-edition-universal-blu-rayplayer.aspx
  



Edit

 *1811 W Bryn Mawr Ave
 Chicago, IL 60660 *
 b/t Ravenswood Ave & Wolcott Ave 
 Lincoln Square
Get Directions
Phone number (312) 433-0200
  
  
 Good Luck!


----------



## mordy

Hi again L R,
  
 Read through some reviews. This company is mainly an internet business, but it seems that the address is their offices and warehouse. There is no sign outside, but they do welcome merchandise pick up. You should call in advance and get GOOD directions since it is somewhat hard to find without any sign outside. Staff seems to be friendly - it's worth a try.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## Shaffer

Music Direct is very well known in the high-performance community. They've been around for quite a while and have a stellar reputation.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> fantastic....u are having FUN, adding a goldensheen of honey to that sound  !!


 
  
 Certainly hope so, L....


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi L R,
> 
> We don't give up so fast - there is a Hi Fi Record and Equipment store in Chicago called MusicDirect. According to their website they have the Oppo 105 in stock.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Very helpful, mordy....I knew you would be yet another great asset to this thread - we have a good few now!
  
 Cheers to you all....


----------



## Lord Raven

Thanks Mordy bro, I have sent this information to my friend. I have almost no chance to get this player, he is coming back on 11th and I am not sure if he will do any effort to goto this WH. But still, I will keep trying.
  
 Thanks again, I have bookmarked this site 
  
 I have recently subscribed to a service called shop and ship, it will help me get stuff from US. It gets very expensive when the stuff is heavy. Like oppo is 8 KG. Small stuff is like local shipment.
  
 Quote:


mordy said:


> Hi L R,
> 
> We don't give up so fast - there is a Hi Fi Record and Equipment store in Chicago called MusicDirect. According to their website they have the Oppo 105 in stock.
> 
> ...


----------



## nephilim

Excitement builds up while waiting for my Elise to be shipped. I already received the 7N7 adapters and ordered two pairs of Sylvanias (tall and short) yesterday. Ready to go


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> Excitement builds up while waiting for my Elise to be shipped. I already received the 7N7 adapters and ordered two pairs of Sylvanias (tall and short) yesterday. Ready to go




I'd be very curious what you think of the tall bottle vs the short. 

I want to emphasis the ridiculously long burnin for the 7N7. This being said, it seems like the Elise takes quite a bit more than 50 hours to fully come into its own, so if you start with the 7N7s, both should be ready to go at about the same time.

IME, a new Elise with NOS 7N7s at first sounds a bit lean, somewhat bright, and a little sibilant. All that changes as the components burnin.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> 001 has a few spare parts and is kind enough to make me a set of adapters, as well. After reading your post, I''m borderline salivating.


 
  
 001 has done a great job on these adaptors utilizing hints from others and doing his own experiments. I'm so glad Hypnos1 made these for me and auditioned their sound. I'm really curious to hear your about your experience with these!


----------



## Anathema123

A question for those who have been able to play around with the amp; Do you guys reckon the Elise can power LCD-2s properly?
  
 I'm visiting Hawaii in september and I'm contemplating having a pair of LCD-2s shipped to the hotel. They're $500(!) cheaper in the states than I could get them for over here.


----------



## Shaffer

anathema123 said:


> A question for those who have been able to play around with the amp; Do you guys reckon the Elise can power LCD-2s properly?
> 
> I'm visiting Hawaii in september and I'm contemplating having a pair of LCD-2s shipped to the hotel. They're $500(!) cheaper in the states than I could get them for over here.




Congratulations on the new cans!

Let me say from the start that I have not heard any of Audeze models with the Elise. Not sure if any of the owners have. Going solely on naive specs -_ I already hate myself for it _- and comparing the power necessary to get my bass-modded K702s going (their nominal impedance is almost the same as the LCD-2), the Elise should drive your cans well, provided you're not listening at very loud levels. Mind you, this is an educated guess. Wish I could tell you for sure. Good luck.


----------



## hypnos1

anathema123 said:


> A question for those who have been able to play around with the amp; Do you guys reckon the Elise can power LCD-2s properly?
> 
> I'm visiting Hawaii in september and I'm contemplating having a pair of LCD-2s shipped to the hotel. They're $500(!) cheaper in the states than I could get them for over here.


 
  
 Hi A123.
  
 Congratulations on your choice of the Elise...I sincerely believe there isn't an OTL amp out there that can match this one for anywhere near this kind of money - especially with no Customs/VAT extras for us in the EU, lol!
  
 But I'm afraid I must ask if you are absolutely sold on the LCD-2s?...I have a feeling that most of the "big boys" would say that OTL amps are not the best for doing full justice to these cans. And from my VERY brief listen at the Cambridge meet I suspect they could well be right.
  
 Of course, headphone preference and subsequent choice must be one of the most contentious (and difficult!) areas in hi-fi land, but I strongly recommend doing a lot more research into your own choice before committing yourself in Sept.
  
 I personally have the Beyer T1s - as do 2 other Elise owners - and I have to say my initial experience with the LCD-2s (in comparison to the Beyers) was less than exciting, unfortunately. The amp is able to drive them with relative ease - having been configured to handle low-z cans better than normally expected from an OTL - but they just didn't give the same magic that the Elise is truly capable of IMHO. Naturally personal preference comes into play here, but I felt the LCD-2s lacked the spaciousness/"air"/detail separation/'holographic' sound of the T1s (which are just some of the qualities that put the Beyers in a totally different league to the HD650s)...
  
 Now, the LCD XCs in A11's Questyle Current Mode Amp were different again - MUCH better, but wow - the price and WEIGHT!!...wasn't able to hear them in my Elise though, sadly...
  
 So, mon ami, I really don't want to rain on your parade, but it would be remiss of me not to mention these things...at least so you can weigh up the pros and cons just a little more before spending a lot of money...
  
 Whatever, I wish you all the best with your choice...not to mention your upcoming experience with this wonderful amp...


----------



## Lorspeaker

so the Elise aint great for the LCD2?...arrrghhhh.


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> so the Elise aint great for the LCD2?...arrrghhhh.


 
  
 SORRY, L...but I could just be wrong lol!!... (needs someone to give a full, proper audition...).
  
 However, if you're a fan of the LCD sound you've GOT to go for the XCs.....or else the T1s?...SELL those 2s!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 ps. If you do the necessary, I promise you access to a nice pair of NOS Lorenz C3gs complete with MKII adapters...but no gold, however!!...


----------



## Anathema123

hypnos1 said:


> But I'm afraid I must ask if you are absolutely sold on the LCD-2s?...I have a feeling that most of the "big boys" would say that OTL amps are not the best for doing full justice to these cans. And from my VERY brief listen at the Cambridge meet I suspect they could well be right.


 
  
 I think they offer the most logical upgrade from HD650s. That said, I was afraid they wouldn't be driven to their full potential using an OTL amp. It seems a disservice to both the 'phones and the amp to mismatch two great things and end up with a setup which is simply good. I think you're right - no LCD-2s for now.
  
 I might demo a pair of T1s after I've had some time to play around with the Elise and the HD650s. I've always been scared of the brightness, but your enthusiastic ramblings on the T1 have piqued my interest 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Besides...There's nothing stopping me from building a second headphone setup in the future with some LCD-2s and another amp


----------



## hypnos1

anathema123 said:


> I think they offer the most logical upgrade from HD650s. That said, I was afraid they wouldn't be driven to their full potential using an OTL amp. It seems a disservice to both the 'phones and the amp to mismatch two great things and end up with a setup which is simply good. I think you're right - no LCD-2s for now.
> 
> I might demo a pair of T1s after I've had some time to play around with the Elise and the HD650s. I've always been scared of the brightness, but your enthusiastic ramblings on the T1 have piqued my interest
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again A123.
  
 I really am sorry if I poured cold water on the LCD 2s - and your Sept. hopes. Don't forget this was my own personal impression...it would be great if you were able to (somehow!) demo a pair along with the T1s to get a REALLY good idea of the pros and cons - of BOTH!
  
 As for T1 cons there are very few indeed, as far as I'm concerned...along with many other lucky owners it appears. The only _possible_ achilles heel is indeed the "brightness" you mentioned. But their wonderful treble extension/clarity/detail is precisely what helps deliver the delicious 'sparkle', spacious airiness and holographic sound I mentioned before. At first it actually comes as a bit of a shock straight after the 650s, but after 'acclimatising' becomes totally addictive!... True, recordings that have been poorly engineered by some idiot who thinks more is better in the treble arena - as opposed to the equally idiotic (IMO!) hyper-bass-head - can become rather harsh in the T1s...but I do believe it's not fair to then blame the cans, lol! 
  
 So I suppose the type of music one prefers will have a bearing on the suitability of these headphones, but then again there are ways of dampening them if absolutely necessary (plus of course through careful tube selection). Also, one's sensitivity to high frequencies will play its part, naturally...
  
 Hopefully you will indeed be able to 'try before you buy', or beg/steal/borrow even!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 GOOD LUCK, whatever...


----------



## lukeap69

The Lyr 2 will probably be better for LCD 2.


----------



## gibosi

More generally, if a tube-based amp is desirable, a hybrid amp, like the Lyr, or transformer coupled, like the Woo WA22, would likely be the best way to go if using low-Z cans.


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> More generally, if a tube-based amp is desirable, a hybrid amp, like the Lyr, or transformer coupled, like the Woo WA22, would likely be the best way to go if using low-Z cans.


 
 ....or the LD MK6. It drives my LCD-XC beautifully and they're only 20 ohms


----------



## Lorspeaker

gibosi said:


> More generally, if a tube-based amp is desirable, a hybrid amp, like the Lyr, or transformer coupled, like the Woo WA22, would likely be the best way to go if using low-Z cans.


 
  
 what about the WA6SE...suitable for low Z ?


----------



## mordy

Hi All,
  
 Got a phone call from my wife this morning: Did you expect a package from Poland??! I shouted a resounding YES!
  
 The long awaited Elise has finally arrived! Unpacked it - looks like a serious handmade piece - I can see part of the hand soldering through the vent holes on the bottom.
  
 It came with the Russian 6H13C Winged C power tubes and Tung Sol 6SN7WGT Selection driver tubes. The Tung Sols are an upgrade. Did not order these; only the stock tubes, Don't know why they were included, perhaps because I offered some help with the Elise.
  
 As tubes go, these tubes were manufactured yesterday and the day before yesterday. The 6H13C are from Feb 1987, and the TS tubes from Oct 2014.
  
 OK - first preliminary listening impressions: EVERYTHING sounds better than my modded Little Dot MKIII. The amp is quicker, has more detail and micro detail, more bite and sizzle in the treble, more slam and impact in the bass, and the midrange and voices are more natural. The soundstage is more coherent. This amp is more involving, and the toe tapping index is off the scale.
  
 This is after one hour of listening.... The word that comes to mind is DELICIOUS.
  
 So now the amp has to cook for some 50 hours with the stock tubes and then I will listen critically again - meanwhile I am just enjoying it. And then I am going to try tube rolling with my favorite tubes from the LD MKIII and some other tubes that I have.
  
 This amp is a winner!
  
 PS: Do I sound like hypnos 1?


----------



## SonicTrance

mordy said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Got a phone call from my wife this morning: Did you expect a package from Poland??! I shouted a resounding YES!
> 
> ...


 
 Congrats on your new amp mordy, enjoy it! And yes, that post sounded just like hypnos1


----------



## gibosi

lorspeaker said:


> what about the WA6SE...suitable for low Z ?


 
  
 According to Woo's website, the WA6SE is transformer coupled, so it should be fine with low Z cans.


----------



## Lorspeaker

...this is a collusion to bankrupt me beyond my creditline. ..i am gonna dig in.
  
  
 Mordy...which can are u using to testdrive this Elise supersports?


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Got a phone call from my wife this morning: Did you expect a package from Poland??! I shouted a resounding YES!
> 
> The long awaited Elise has finally arrived! [...]




Congratulations!


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Got a phone call from my wife this morning: Did you expect a package from Poland??! I shouted a resounding YES!


 
  
 Congratulations!
  
 And I assume you are now busy grafting your external heater power supply onto the Elise so that you can run a pair of 5Amp 6336B as power tubes? lol


----------



## mordy

Thanks for all the encouraging words!
  
 So far I am only listening through speakers and using the Elsie as a preamp. The only cans I have are the Yamaha MT-220 with the Lorspeaker cotton and cork mods (and a pair of Koss PortaPro for traveling). I briefly listened to the Yamaha cans now - the presentation is darker from the Elise directly than listening to my speakers via a ss amp, but it is too early to form an opinion.
  
 The included tubes were manufactured yesterday and the day before yesterday, as tubes go. The power tubes are from Feb 1987 and the driver tubes from Oct 2014.
  
 Re the 5A 6336B tubes I don't think that I will attempt to try them. In a previous post Glenn told me that the Glenn amp will see the 6336 the same as 6AS7 and did not think that there would be any sonic benefits. Lukasz told me that the Elise can only handle the 2.5A tubes. We'll see....
  
 I am looking for a serial # on the amp, but cannot find it.
  
 A manual is now available for the Elise on the Feliks website. The amp has been on for 3.5 hours and feels cool to the touch except for one spot that is barely warm. The sound seems to be improving, or, I am getting more used to it - it seems to me that there is more micro detail in the bass and treble.


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> OK - first preliminary listening impressions: EVERYTHING sounds better than my modded Little Dot MKIII. The amp is quicker, has more detail and micro detail, more bite and sizzle in the treble, more slam and impact in the bass, and the midrange and voices are more natural. The soundstage is more coherent. This amp is more involving, and the toe tapping index is off the scale.
> 
> This is after one hour of listening.... The word that comes to mind is DELICIOUS.
> 
> This amp is a winner!


 
  
 Hi Mordy, great to read you are enjoying the Elise so much! Your experience is certainly similar to mine and other Elise owners. A very quick, detailed amplifier with silky highs and great impact in the bass.
  
 Enjoy it!
  
 Will have some nice photos to share soon


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> I am looking for a serial # on the amp, but cannot find it.
> 
> A manual is now available for the Elise on the Feliks website. The amp has been on for 3.5 hours and feels cool to the touch except for one spot that is barely warm. The sound seems to be improving, or, I am getting more used to it - it seems to me that there is more micro detail in the bass and treble.


 
  
 The serial number should be on the warranty card,somethng like #014 
  
 Great news about the manual!
 Would love to read your updates as you keep listening to the amp.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Got a phone call from my wife this morning: Did you expect a package from Poland??! I shouted a resounding YES!
> 
> ...


 
  
 GREAT NEWS mordy...and yes, that's me to a t, lol! - just you wait 'til everything's burned in for a good 50+ hours...not to mention even better (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







) tubes. As Shaffer might say, I'm salivating already!!
  
 I am SO glad you are echoing all the rest of our findings (especially as I know you were already very pleased with the results you managed to squeeze out of the LD). I think I can finally rest at ease (as can Lukasz, I'm sure!). Still, I would like a LOT more people to be enjoying the same magic!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Continue to have a wonderful weekend hearing all your favourite music anew.
  
 CHEERS!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps.  Isn't it lovely not to have all those bits and pieces to make it work lol!!
  
  


sonictrance said:


> ....or the LD MK6. It drives my LCD-XC beautifully and they're only 20 ohms


 
  
 I am REALLY disappointed I couldn't demo those XCs in the Elise - I'm quite sure they would have sounded FAR better in her than the 2s!...especially given the massive difference displayed by A11's (extremely good) Questyle Current Mode Amp...


----------



## Shaffer

Above are some of the power cords I built for an order. The pic is more than 10 years old. At that time there weren't nearly as many aftermarket cords as there are now. I built the cords mostly as a hobby and out of a sense of intellectual curiosity, which brings me to the point of this post.

These days, if I see some interesting power wire, I build a cord and check it out. As I mentioned in a previous comment, I live in an area heavily polluted by RFI and constantly have to deal with issues driven by the effect: hum, buzz, radio, TV. You haven't lived until you've heard Crazy Train dominating the quiet parts of a piano performance. Aside from the usual remedies like heavily shielded wire, ferrite clamps, etc, which almost never fully solve the problem, I found power cords to have a significant impact on the noise. One in particular. A very thick, purple Furutech whose model number has worn off. For all I know it may not even be a real Furutech, as I bought it from Hong Kong. I terminated it with ebay Chinese Wattgate IEC clone and a P&S plug from Lowes.

The Elise is a very quiet amp. In my room, it didn't begin making noise until somewhere around the 2 o'clock mark on the dial. I said that in the past tense, because last night I replaced the Supra cord I was using with the Furutech. Zero noise with the knob all the way up. Nothing, no noise, whatsoever. Frankly, I was very surprised by the magnitude of the improvement.

My point is, if you find your amp making noise and all the usual fixes haven't fully cured the problem, borrow some cords from your dealer and give that a shot.


----------



## mordy

Hi,
  
 6 1/2 hours and the amp doesn't even break out in a sweat - cool as a cucumber.
  
 Re the Tung Sol tubes, I mentioned it to Lukasz, and he replied that they threw them in because I had to wait so long for the amp ( I had inquired some 6 months ago).
  
 Re the serial #, the warranty card is blank in that section. Maybe they were in a hurry to ship it; the shipping only took 2 days.
  
 Can't wait to try hypnos' adapters with the C3g tubes, but first I want to burn in the amp.
  
 For a power cord I used the same one I used for the Little Dot - can't even remember if it is the original power cord supplied. I do have some hum at around past 3 o'clock on the volume control. There is more hum from my PC than my laptop - I just live with it, and the music obscures it. The Elise is definitively quieter than the LD. When I am playing through speakers I use the 3 o'clock setting.
  
 However, I am going to try different power cords - have a whole bunch from various computers and appliances, but nothing that says Hi Fi on them. I do have a line filter from Monster Cable that improves on the RF and EMI noise.
  
 Using the headphones, I can hear a faint noise at almost full volume without playing music (5 o'clock). However, I can't go louder than than 12 o'clock with the headphones or it gets much too loud.
  
 Interesting to me, that the Elise behaves the same as the Little Dot when it comes to the volume control, and I am using the same settings. Also, plugging in the headphones while playing through speakers at the same time, lowers the volume on the speakers.
  
 And yes, it is a relief not to have the snake nest of wires hanging everywhere for the adapters, PS and voltage regulators.
  
 All in all, very pleased so far.


----------



## MusclePharm

I've made my mind between Elise and Bottlehead Crack, and even though I'm no expert on the subject, I find that this Amp will get me an advantage over Crack on future regarding other headphones.
  
 Now I've been following a product that has come up at Massdrop and is seems quite a deal for the price. PS Audio Sprout, the MSRP is $799,00 and its current Massdrop price is: $499.00 (if 9 more people join the Drop, they will include their PerfectWave AC3 2 Meter Power Cable for free).
 Since It's about the same price as this one, it already includes a DAC and unfortunately I can't find that much reviews on Elise, what do you guys think of this deal?


----------



## Lorspeaker

hows the soundstage of the ELISE vs your modded LD?


----------



## Lord Raven

Many congratulations Mordy  I hope  you're fully satisfied by the amplifier's performance, I just finished reading all your reviews, what is that hum? I am already scared? 
  
 I am wondering where is my Elise? Should I send email to Lukasz? It has been a while, may be I will get Tungsol tubes either hehe
  
 I am too busy looking for a deal on Oppo 105D, someone suggested that I should wait since there is a new model expected at the end of this year and people are suggesting that there'll be a price drop on the previous models, what do you say Mordy?
  
 I could not get it through my friend in Chicago, he left the city and could not find a store. However, I have found another person who is going to help me out with this purchase.
  
 Quote:


mordy said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Got a phone call from my wife this morning: Did you expect a package from Poland??! I shouted a resounding YES!
> 
> ...


----------



## nephilim

Lukasz told me that the numerous holidays in May slowed down the production rate. He expected my Elise going into production about now but I still haven't received a confirmation. I ordered about a month ago. Looking forward


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Many congratulations Mordy  I hope you're fully satisfied by the amplifier's performance, I just finished reading all your reviews, what is that hum? I am already scared?




The hum could be there due to a variety of reasons, not the least of which are powerline issues. Let me give an example. My system is fed from its own subpanel with 100A service. Everything is on dedicated lines, yet, when the subpump kicks in I get a ground loop. Not hum, but a genuine 60Hz loop. It lasts for as long as the subpump is operational ( a few seconds). Discussing this with an electrician friend just 2 days ago, he thinks the issue may be driven by the return wire. Essentially, nearly impossible to fix.

As for hum, specifically, as another example, all transformers hum to one degree or another. Some transformers hum louder, when fed with voltage that's higher/lower than their spec. This hum produces harmonics at higher frequencies and becomes audible.

Then, there's the "tube hum." Tubes can act like antennas, especially when reinforced with an unshielded/badly shielded interconnect and IME the power cable. I went through the same thing, myself, when I first installed the Elise and the LDIII for that matter, and a change in wire fixed the problem.

In short, no pun intended, just because some have a hum issue doesn't mean that you will.


----------



## Shaffer

musclepharm said:


> I've made my mind between Elise and Bottlehead Crack, and even though I'm no expert on the subject, I find that this Amp will get me an advantage over Crack on future regarding other headphones.
> 
> Now I've been following a product that has come up at Massdrop and is seems quite a deal for the price. PS Audio Sprout, the MSRP is $799,00 and its current Massdrop price is: $499.00 (if 9 more people join the Drop, they will include their PerfectWave AC3 2 Meter Power Cable for free).
> Since It's about the same price as this one, it already includes a DAC and unfortunately I can't find that much reviews on Elise, what do you guys think of this deal?




The Elise is a handmade, beautifully put together amplifier designed as per the needs of a headphone tube enthusiast, in part, on this forum. Its performance envelope greatly exceeds its introductory price. OTOH, the Sprout is an assembly line product with a switching ss amplifier and a minimal power supply. As you can see, it's already discounted by ~40%. This tells me that dealers aren't clamoring for the component. Not sure how the two can be compared.

The Elise is a new product for Feliks and the company builds to order. You won't find reviews outside of this thread. We'd be happy to answer any questions you may have. Good luck.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

I'am not an EE nor have years of experienced with tube amps so i could be wrong with these,"HUM" before anyone jump into CABLE RABBIT HOLE(This rabbit hole can be very very expensive)maybe we should consider finding out more on how our amps was built.Cable routing,Components placement and soldering can  contribute with these noise issue too this is why I'am a big fan of BH,Glen@'s amp,DV and of course the ELISE i was impressed how these amps was wired.Yeah i'am sucker for P2P wiring........
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
  Notice some TUBE ADAPTERS and some AMPS two identical ones,One is noisy and the other is quiet due to how it's been put together and which locations they are inplaced after all we all live in a Full of RFI environment again i might be wrong here.I did play around with CABLES,ADAPTERS,CAPACITORS,Cables routing and Components placement that is why i love P2P i can easily moved stuff around if i want to or experiment(which i did).


----------



## Shaffer

i luvmusic 2 said:


> I'am not an EE nor have years of experienced with tube amps so i could be wrong with these,"HUM" *before anyone jump into CABLE RABBIT HOLE(This rabbit hole can be very very expensive)*maybe we should consider finding out more on how our amps was built.Cable routing,Components placement and soldering can  contribute with these noise issue too this is why I'am a big fan of BH,Glen@'s amp,DV and of course the ELISE i was impressed how these amps was wired.Yeah i'am sucker for P2P wiring........




It's only expensive if one buys expensive cables. That's not necessary. Hell, as a default option a 1m pair of Mogami or Canare Star-Quad interconnects sell for ~$30. Some of the quietest interconnects I use are ribbon-type "silver" cable from China. Less than $18 shipped. One can try a variety of power wire options just by going to his favorite DIY store and buying bulk cable. The geometries of those same cable can be modified, as well, producing a different result relative to noise suppression. Then, there's the used cable route. I've purchased (real) XLO interconnects for as little as $15 for the pair. Some of my favorite interconnects, Tara Labs Quantum III, sell for around $40 used. 

All this being said, I cannot imagine an audiophile who's been at this for a while not having a drawer-full of wire accumulated over time.



> Notice some TUBE ADAPTERS and some AMPS two identical ones,One is noisy and the other is quiet due to how it's been put together and which locations they are inplaced after all we all live in a Full of RFI environment again i might be wrong here.I did play around with CABLES,ADAPTERS,CAPACITORS,Cables routing and Components placement that is why i love P2P i can easily moved stuff around if i want to or experiment(which i did).




All of the above goes without saying. What happens when none of it works? That's what I'm addressing.


----------



## Lord Raven

Thanks Felix for the explanation, I can understand by my car audio system. There is alternator noise and is hard to take it out of your system, but I have put very nice shielded cables to get rid of it. Regarding power cable, it is a braided and twisted multi strand pure OFC cable, maybe it helps get the noise out. 
  
 Using my car audio knowledge, I might be able to tackle the noise issue in my tube amplifier. I am worried that I will be only feeding it with the laptop and samsung phone. I need something better before the amp arrives.
  
 Guess what, my amp is not coming soon, it have been 3 weeks since I placed my order and it will still take another 3 weeks to finally arrive, maybe more. WTH! :/
  
 Quote:


shaffer said:


> The hum could be there due to a variety of reasons, not the least of which are powerline issues. Let me give an example. My system is fed from its own subpanel with 100A service. Everything is on dedicated lines, yet, when the subpump kicks in I get a ground loop. Not hum, but a genuine 60Hz loop. It lasts for as long as the subpump is operational ( a few seconds). Discussing this with an electrician friend just 2 days ago, he thinks the issue may be driven by the return wire. Essentially, nearly impossible to fix.
> 
> As for hum, specifically, as another example, all transformers hum to one degree or another. Some transformers hum louder, when fed with voltage that's higher/lower than their spec. This hum produces harmonics at higher frequencies and becomes audible.
> 
> ...


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Guess what, my amp is not coming soon, it have been 3 weeks since I placed my order and it will still take another 3 weeks to finally arrive, maybe more. WTH! :/




Heh, that's what happens with a made to order, handmade product. I know that doesn't make you feel any better so let me explain. Having worked in manufacturing and the audio industry, here's an educated guess: Feliks had no way of truly gauging the demand for the product; not enough data for an econometric analysis. Being a family owned small manufacturer, they most likely ordered a limited number of parts that are exclusive to the Elise, like the faceplate, as an example. It can be quite an investment. I imagine they ordered an initial quantity of ~10 pieces. Even though CNC mills are much more common now than they were even a few years ago, there's still a waiting period. Then, there's the plating. If the quality of the piece is not up to par, they have to start all over again.

It seems like 4-5 amps were sold in the last month. The product is taking off. Taking into account component availability, build time, testing, and the fact that other orders exist, as well, 6 weeks isn't so bad. I once waited 8 months for a pair of speakers. That was a bit excessive to be sure, but I was getting $19,000 speakers for ~$4,500 (as an industry accommodation). I looked at it as getting paid $15K to wait. Similarly, with the Elise's price being so low....

I agree; car audio experience can be very helpful in tracking down the source of the noise.


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> Heh, that's what happens with a made to order, handmade product. I know that doesn't make you feel any better so let me explain. Having worked in manufacturing and the audio industry, here's an educated guess: Feliks had no way of truly gauging the demand for the product; not enough data for an econometric analysis. Being a family owned small manufacturer, they most likely ordered a limited number of parts that are exclusive to the Elise, like the faceplate, as an example. It can be quite an investment. I imagine they ordered an initial quantity of ~10 pieces. Even though CNC mills are much more common now than they were even a few years ago, there's still a waiting period. Then, there's the plating. If the quality of the piece is not up to par, they have to start all over again.
> 
> It seems like 4-5 amps were sold in the last month. The product is taking off. Taking into account component availability, build time, testing, and the fact that other orders exist, as well, 6 weeks isn't so bad. I once waited 8 months for a pair of speakers. That was a bit excessive to be sure, but I was getting $19,000 speakers for ~$4,500 (as an industry accommodation). I looked at it as getting paid $15K to wait. Similarly, with the Elise's price being so low....
> 
> I agree; car audio experience can be very helpful in tracking down the source of the noise.




Thanks for the comforting words brother Felix. I once ordered Utopia No.7 by Focal, it took 6 months to deliver, when I received the package, one of the drivers were broken. I sent the package back to dealer and he blamed it on me. It took me one long year of battle with the dealer and company in France to get a replacement. I quit following Focal. I still use it everyday but I absolutely hate the company. 

I'm sure Feliks will prosper, I have faith in it. They're going to raise the price soon. I'll be from the Pioneer supporters of the Elise. I'll wait, no matter it takes 6 months. I am impatient mainly because I spent like months reading about Tubes, learned to build an amp, I couldn't sleep :/ Finally found Elise. 

I hope it'll be worth it. I also wanted to tell you that, I'm so close to Oppo now. I have relatives in New York, Valley Stream. They're willing to ship it to my home country by someone they know. 

God. This audio business is addictive.


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Thanks for the comforting words brother Felix. I once ordered Utopia No.7 by Focal, it took 6 months to deliver, when I received the package, one of the drivers were broken. I sent the package back to dealer and he blamed it on me. It took me one long year of battle with the dealer and company in France to get a replacement. I quit following Focal. I still use it everyday but I absolutely hate the company.




Very sorry to hear. I would have expected more from Focal in terms of support for the Utopia line, especially.



> I'm sure Feliks will prosper, I have faith in it. They're going to raise the price soon. I'll be from the Pioneer supporters of the Elise. I'll wait, no matter it takes 6 months. I am impatient mainly because I spent like months reading about Tubes, learned to build an amp, I couldn't sleep :/ Finally found Elise.




I found the Elise after seeing my name in the header of a thread. I knew, then, that I had to have it. I mean, all these years playing with audio and I'm not going to not buy an amplifier with my name on it? Not even funny. So, I've been lurking in this thread for a while, following the development of the amp. Once I saw the finished product and read some of the impressions of its sound, I started posting and placed my order.

When the amplifier arrived - only took a few days - I was initially very impressed by its build quality. Even the bottom of the amp is executed with a lot of thought. Who does that, anymore, for this kind of money? Then I heard it. I described my initial reaction to its sound in other posts, and I will say that it has not changed. It is one of the most revealing and extended (in terms of its FR) tube amplifiers I've heard. Didn't expect that. Nor did I expect the scale of the sound to be as big. I thought the amp would be very good, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it, but a reference class performance envelope? Not even in my wildest dreams.

As a side note, every single person to come into my house noticed the Elise. A first with audio gear.



> I hope it'll be worth it. I also wanted to tell you that, I'm so close to Oppo now. I have relatives in New York, Valley Stream. They're willing to ship it to my home country by someone they know.
> 
> God. This audio business is addictive.




Glad to hear you have a chance to get a 105! Once everything breaks in, you won't believe all the new material you'll hear on familiar recordings. 

As for the addiction aspect, well, you speak the truth. There came a point, after a few decades of searching for better and better sound, when I got sick of the whole thing and sold my entire system. Didn't stop playing music, of course. I was heavily influenced by this editorial, when putting together the system I have now:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/are_you_a_sharpener_or_a_leveler/index.html

^^^ Now I'm a leveler. I'm very happy with what I have and really have no desire to upgrade anything, but I do hear the T1 calling my name. It won't happen soon, though.


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 Read the article about sharpeners and levelers with interest,
  
_"My advice: When it comes to selecting components and setting up a system, be as much of a Sharpener as you feel like. But when everything is working more or less to your satisfaction, it's time to switch out of the hypercritical Sharpener mode, become more of a Leveler, and have a good time just listening to the music."_
  
 I really agree with this statement; however, I would word it differently. There are people who listen to the equipment, and there are people that listen to the music. The extreme cases of listening to the equipment results in_ Audiophilia Nervosa_; a condition where the person constantly changes equipment and never is happy with the sound. (The positive side is that you may be able to pick up a bargain.)
  
 Then you have people that just listen to the music, and the equipment does not matter much. A cheap poor performing  system is just fine.
  
 Personally, I went through a five year period of constantly upgrading the tubes on the Little Dot MKIII amp with the help of the members on this forum. I learned a lot, and finally reached a set up that I was happy with. Nothing bothered me, everything sounded right, and I stopped buying tubes.
  
 One of the most amazing things I learned is that it is possible to reach a consensus on what sounds good, within a certain range. No one combination of tubes is the best for everybody, but a certain group of tubes are considered top performers. An added bonus is that some of these tubes could be gotten for as little as $2-5 each, albeit with a little patience. At the same time, I got to understand the tastes of some of the regular contributors and could compare it to my own.
  
 After hearing the opinions of several contributors re the Elise I decided to go for it. Whatever people are saying about it I have been able to corroborate - there is no going back.
 The amp is now burning in, and my initial impressions are unchanged. Perhaps it sounds a little brighter now and more detailed after some 35 hours. After some 50 hours I'll try the tubes that worked best in the LIttle Dot and see how they sound in the Elise.
  
 When they developed the Elise, we asked for an indicator light on the front panel that showed that it was on, Feliks obliged and incorporated it into the design. Curiously, I now see that that the on/off switch on the back of the unit lights up when on. If I would have known this, I would not have asked for the front indicator light.
  
 Lorspeaker,
  
 I am discovering new details in familiar recordings. The amp just seems quick and effortless. The sound stage seems deeper than the LD. In addition, the sound stage is more coherent and more of a continuum - not just right, center and left. The mid range is just very musical, warm, natural and beautiful. I am listening to a violin solo now, with an open mouth - the violinist seems to be standing right in my room.....
  
 Man, this amp started singing!


----------



## Lorspeaker

MOOOOOOOORDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:


----------



## Renderman

lorspeaker said:


> MOOOOOOOORDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
  
 Lol, Just go ahead and order your Elise Lorspeaker, you know you are going to anyway!
  


Spoiler: Just a sneak peak...


----------



## Renderman

> http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/are_you_a_sharpener_or_a_leveler/index.html
> 
> ^^^ Now I'm a leveler. I'm very happy with what I have and really have no desire to upgrade anything, but I do hear the T1 calling my name. It won't happen soon, though.


 
 Very interesting article Shaffer! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I used to be a sharpener for many years (Ending up building the most precise, analytical headphone amplifier). Now having discovered tubes and especially owning an Elise I am glad to say I'm becoming more of a leveler. Lately I've just been enjoying music, not worrying much about specs like SNR and THD.
  
  


mordy said:


> I am discovering new details in familiar recordings. The amp just seems quick and effortless. The sound stage seems deeper than the LD. In addition, the sound stage is more coherent and more of a continuum - not just right, center and left. The mid range is just very musical, warm, natural and beautiful. I am listening to a violin solo now, with an open mouth - the violinist seems to be standing right in my room.....
> 
> Man, this amp started singing!


 
  
 Mordy is right! This amplifier just sings, probably the closest experience to a live performance as I will ever get. I'm sure the GEC 6AS7Gs and C3Gs do their part in this.
  
 I'm so glad everyone that bought an Elise seems to be enjoying her thoroughly and it's not just Hypnos1, other early adopters and myself hearing her sonic benefits. I enjoy listening to a lot of different music genres and the Elise just excels with anything I throw at her, amazing.
  
 After hearing the excellent C3gs in Hypnos1's very well built adapters I will be selling a few well regarded pairs of 6SN7s. Wanted to give Elise owners here a chance to have the first pick. Not sure if it's ok to list what I have for sale here so just shoot me a PM if you are interested.


----------



## hypnos1

Hey guys, I just thought I'd snatch a quick look and WOW...your wonderful comments and obvious enjoyment have cheered me up no end. I am so glad for you all - and the Feliks guys, of course.
  
 It has been quite a long (sometimes stressful!) haul to this point, but it's all been worth it - thank goodness!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. May the enjoyment continue...
  
 I too have now reached the 'leveler' stage - which is what I was hoping for from the outset with the Elise project, and am a very happy chappie indeed. No further need for any expensive hi-fi gear - thank goodness!...but I must once more encourage all Elise owners to dig deep and spoil yourselves by splashing out on some serious headphones, if you don't already have some - the jump in this amp's performance is truly amazing LOL... (are you listening Shaffer?!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 BFN folks,
  
 And CHEERS!


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Hey guys, I just thought I'd snatch a quick look and WOW...your wonderful comments and obvious enjoyment have cheered me up no end. I am so glad for you all - and the Feliks guys, of course.
> 
> I too have now reached the 'leveler' stage - which is what I was hoping for from the outset with the Elise project, and am a very happy chappie indeed.


 
  
 I'm glad you our comments cheered you up Hypnos1, you have been instrumental in bringing this amplifier to life!
  
  


musclepharm said:


> Since It's about the same price as this one, it already includes a DAC and unfortunately I can't find that much reviews on Elise, what do you guys think of this deal?


 
  
 You are right MusclePharm. I checked but, to my surprise there was not a product page for the Elise yet! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I took it upon myself to make her a product page and at the same time posted my review. I hope this will help other make an informed choice.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/feliks-audio-elise


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> I'm glad you our comments cheered you up Hypnos1, you have been instrumental in bringing this amplifier to life!




I think that we all owe Colin a great deal of gratitude.



> You are right MusclePharm. I checked but, to my surprise there was not a product page for the Elise yet! :eek:  I took it upon myself to make her a product page and at the same time posted my review. I hope this will help other make an informed choice.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/feliks-audio-elise




Nicely done. I need to write one, too.


----------



## mordy

Hi Lorspeaker,
  
 Just plugged in the C3gS tubes into hypnos' beautifully made adapters + my pair of 6080WB Sylvanias - these tubes worked best for me in the Little Dot MKIII.
  
*Preliminary impression:*
  
 Sounds great in the Elise, more detail, impact, and clarity. However, the stock set up with the new issue Tung Sol 6SN7GTB and the Svetlana 6H13C is very good and after a just a quick listen sound a little sweeter but less detail and  less impact in the bass.
  
 However, all these observations are by listening to speakers. I plugged in the Yamaha MT-220 into the Elise. They sound very good, but the treble is more recessed and (perhaps because of this) sounds less detailed. The bass may be a tad better than my speakers.
  
 I am very happy with the Elise, but I may need need to do some level headed tube rolling to sharpen my impressions to find the best combination with the other tubes I have.
  
 Sharpener
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 + leveler   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




     =  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Or, to put it graphically, after listening to the Elise:
  




  
 BTW, this is a real place - the Rainbow Mountains in China. 
  
 Obviously the inspiration for this picture of a C3g tube:
  




  
 Cheers!


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 A very nice and thorough review! Agree with everything (and I thought I was the only one who got dust sticking on the faceplate...)
  
 I too am getting used to the C3gS tubes in the Elise - they allow you to hear more into the recordings.


----------



## mordy

Hi L R,
  
_"I am too busy looking for a deal on Oppo 105D, someone suggested that I should wait since there is a new model expected at the end of this year and people are suggesting that there'll be a price drop on the previous models, what do you say Mordy?_"
  
 I am not familiar with the Oppo, but can offer these general observations: A lot of companies have a lot of pressure on them to constantly come out with New and Improved models. Many times the new model is basically the same but with different trim and some extra (unnecessary) feature. In that case I would not hesitate to buy the older model which usually goes on sale before the new one arrives. Don't be afraid to miss a sale - it will go on sale again.....
  
 However, at times the new model is a real improvement. For this you have to wait for people buying it and read their reviews. So if you are patient you will figure out which way to go.
  
 I have used this way of thinking successfully with digital cameras, and ended up buying the old model when the reviews came in that the new one did not take as sharp pictures as the older model, although it had a longer zoom - saved a bundle.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## Shaffer

LR, where did you hear about new Oppo models? I ask, because I've heard nothing about it, no beta testers have been solicited (as per Oppo's practice), and they just updated the 105 a bit more than a year ago. They did announce two new products in March, both of them being phones.

Mordy, the Oppo105 is arguably the best multi-media player available. Oppo doesn't just upgrade the trim. The 105 is a new design, compared to the preceding 95. An Oppo103 has most of 105's features and costs less than half as much. Why? Because, it is designed for video systems and doesn't have the 105's analog section, which occupies about a third of the machine's internal space. The upgraded audio in the 105, including a HP-out straight from the DAC chips and an asynchronous USB input is a $700 option.

FWIW, some of the folks on my home forum, one of them being the mastering engineer who did most of the work for HDTracks, compared the 105 to a 4-piece ~$110K dCS stack. There was no clear winner. The other folks, sans one, were professional audio reviewers, not the blog kind.


----------



## Lord Raven

LOL you're done, my friend..  time to buy amps..
  
 Quote:


lorspeaker said:


> MOOOOOOOORDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Lord Raven

Well, Focal is such crappy company, you have no idea. I kept calling them in France, in my home country. I had such a terrible year without SQ  Dammit.
  
 I would definitely buy an amplifier with my name on it  But I will always keep it away from my wife and visitors, no need to show off haha Do you think I should ask for the Tungsol upgrades just like Mordy recived his? Would it be an upgrade over the factory supplied tubes?
  
 Oppo, I am hunting like a predator  I just paid for a guy in UK for a pair of Arc Audio 2075 SE Signature Edition Car Audio amplifiers, man, I am BROKE and still buying stuff.
  
 I just finished reading the article, I think I will rate myself something in between a sharpener and a leveler, the one who is fully satisfied by his gear (my car audio) but still wants to try something new since the existing stuff is old now  what do you call it?
  
 Well, now I open up to this forum. I started as a bass head in car audio, and blown my brains out. I couldn't hear a thing, couldn't take calls or use cell phones. Went through a surgery, and spent almost one and a half year away from any kind of music. Believe me. After that incident, I had such sensitive ears that I could not enjoy ANY speaker system. Headphones or earphones were like suicide to me. I realized that music is not my field, but still I kept on hunting for sound. Until I met Focal, that's where I started buying expensive speakers, and climbed my way from their entry level to the top Utopia level in pursuit of pure sound. I don't think I will ever change the speakers in car audio. Then I bought a pair of Focal Spirit One headphones and my mind was blown again, this brought me into the world of headphone amplifiers, initially I wanted a solid state amp but then I was introduced to the world of tubes on a car audio forum. I joined every forum to hunt for tubes, spent nights reading and obsessing over tubes, I wanted to build something for myself but the cost of sourcing and hassle of DIY and troubleshooting lead me to Elise  I was looking at cheap tube amps on ebay, when someone said, don't buy any of that cheap Chinese stuff. I am glad I did not waste a single penny on that stuff. I am going to own an Elise soon. God willing!
  
 Thanks for sharing the nice article.
  
 Quote:


shaffer said:


> Very sorry to hear. I would have expected more from Focal in terms of support for the Utopia line, especially.
> I found the Elise after seeing my name in the header of a thread. I knew, then, that I had to have it. I mean, all these years playing with audio and I'm not going to not buy an amplifier with my name on it? Not even funny. So, I've been lurking in this thread for a while, following the development of the amp. Once I saw the finished product and read some of the impressions of its sound, I started posting and placed my order.
> 
> When the amplifier arrived - only took a few days - I was initially very impressed by its build quality. Even the bottom of the amp is executed with a lot of thought. Who does that, anymore, for this kind of money? Then I heard it. I described my initial reaction to its sound in other posts, and I will say that it has not changed. It is one of the most revealing and extended (in terms of its FR) tube amplifiers I've heard. Didn't expect that. Nor did I expect the scale of the sound to be as big. I thought the amp would be very good, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it, but a reference class performance envelope? Not even in my wildest dreams.
> ...


----------



## Lord Raven

mordy said:


> Hi L R,
> 
> _"I am too busy looking for a deal on Oppo 105D, someone suggested that I should wait since there is a new model expected at the end of this year and people are suggesting that there'll be a price drop on the previous models, what do you say Mordy?_"
> 
> ...


 
 Hello Mordy,
  
 Oppo has a line-up that suggests they come up with something irresistible with every newer model. The version update coming end of this year will have 4k display feature, which I DON'T want at all, since I don't have a 4K TV or Projector. I was just hoping for a price drop. I just wanted to know if someone else is also expecting such price drop.
  
 I guess I will wait for someone else to comment on Oppo 105D, I am so close to ordering mine.
  
 Regarding photography, I also am a photographer and own a decent set-up, Nikon D7100 LOL I have set foot in so many hobbies, is it bad?


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> LR, where did you hear about new Oppo models? I ask, because I've heard nothing about it, no beta testers have been solicited (as per Oppo's practice), and they just updated the 105 a bit more than a year ago. They did announce two new products in March, both of them being phones.
> 
> Mordy, the Oppo105 is arguably the best multi-media player available. Oppo doesn't just upgrade the trim. The 105 is a new design, compared to the preceding 95. An Oppo103 has most of 105's features and costs less than half as much. Why? Because, it is designed for video systems and doesn't have the 105's analog section, which occupies about a third of the machine's internal space. The upgraded audio in the 105, including a HP-out straight from the DAC chips and an asynchronous USB input is a $700 option.
> 
> FWIW, some of the folks on my home forum, one of them being the mastering engineer who did most of the work for HDTracks, compared the 105 to a 4-piece ~$110K dCS stack. There was no clear winner. The other folks, sans one, were professional audio reviewers, not the blog kind.


 
 Oh GOD. After this brief review, there is no second thought to not own an Oppo 105D 
  
 Well, I am on a Facebook group with bunch of audiophiles, they were discussing the newer model. I even saw someone selling his 105D cause he wanted to gear up for the newer model. The latest model will have 4k display feature. That is all I know.


----------



## mordy

Hi All,
  
 Another take on Sharpener/Leveler:
  
 Analytic vs musical. Is the music presented as a very detailed laser print with every detail in relief, or is it an like an impressionistic painting, a little blurry but oh so beautiful?
  
 Well, this goes for tubes as well; analytical and detailed, or musical, warm and lush.
  
*OR:*
  
 A tube that has both - beautiful detail and great musicality. Well, I have been looking for this combination for a while, and with the Little Dot MKIII I thought that I had found it in Siemens C3gS/Sylvania 6080WB.
  
 I was happy and content, until the Elise appeared on the scene. No contest; the Elise is much better sounding. With the supplied tubes Tung Sol 6SN7GTB Selection and 6H13C it is very musical and sweet sounding, but lacking a little in the detail.
  
 So I substituted the TS tubes for the C3gs. More detail, but not IT. Swapped out the 6H13C tubes for the Syl 6080s. Better, but the bass sounds a bit thin. Sorry, but the Sylvania 6080s that I loved in the LD don't float my new boat; I mean amp.
  
 So what does a dedicated sharpener/tube roller do? U try somethin' else. In this case I introduced the 20 year older American first cousins to the 6H13C - the JAN CAHG 6AS7G Chathams.
  
 The similarity of the looks is striking - definitively the same Coke Bottle family heritage. So how does it sound?
  
 The bass changed from thinnish to fat and round, and an overall darker presentation, which isn't bad. It IS quite good, but somethin' is bothering me - don't know what yet. I DO miss the Matisse impressionism. Should I switch out the C3g tubes for the the TS tubes? Nah,too dangerous; the C3g tubes are known to break when you look at them, or remove them from their sockets.
  
 We'll see what tomorrow brings...
  




  




  
 Can you make out the numbers on the last sail all the way back in the picture?
  
 Which colors do u like the best in the flower picture?


----------



## Lorspeaker

What u need is an old thick red copper powercord


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> What u need is an old thick red copper powercord




What?


----------



## Shaffer

...deleted.


----------



## mordy

_"but somethin' is bothering me - don't know what yet. We'll see what tomorrow brings..._"
  
 Today is tomorrow, and now I know what bothered me yesterday. With the C3g tubes Elise (Elsie?) was talking to me, telling me secrets about familiar recordings.
  
 Thing is, I want the amp to *sing* to me, not talk to me. So I plugged in the supplied Tung Sol newborn Russki tubes again, this time paired with the Chatham 6AS7G.
  
 The amp started to sing again, with a little more punch than the 6H13C tubes. Think checking the vivid button printing out a color photo.
  
 So there, I got it off my chest.... I know that the C3g is a better tube, more resolution, goes deeper. Now I have to try to find a way to use it that makes the amp sing.
  
 BTW, the TS tubes were made in November last year (not October), and the Chathams probably are from 1958, making them 57 year old.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> _"but somethin' is bothering me - don't know what yet. We'll see what tomorrow brings..._"
> 
> Today is tomorrow, and now I know what bothered me yesterday. With the C3g tubes Elise (Elsie?) was talking to me, telling me secrets about familiar recordings.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey mordy...different ears, different preferences. Even if the C3g isn't best for you (still early days, of course) there's a big world of 6SN7s out there - of which you already have a few. And Renderman is moving on some of his, if you want to PM him. If you haven't already looked, there's some interesting views on the 6c8g (which needs special adapter though) over at the 6SN7 tube addicts thread.
  
 It would be real interesting to hear your impressions on different drivers, either here or on R's tube rolling thread....the game is not over yet for you, mon ami! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (and you would be helping further what the Elise was originally configured for, lol!!).
  
 The main thing, of course, is that you love the amp,...which gladdens me most...CHEERS!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and HAPPY ROLLING!
  
  
 It will be real


----------



## nephilim

It's getting complicated... I ordered the Elise with the most expensive drivers. While waiting for the amp I learned about c3g and 7n7 alternatives. Ordered 7n7 adapter and tubes. Now that the amp is delayed even more, I learn about 6c8g...I will not buy adapter and tubes now, as I first need to understand if I can hear the difference between the other tubes... supposed the amp actually arrives


----------



## JazzVinyl

nephilim said:


> It's getting complicated... I ordered the Elise with the most expensive drivers. While waiting for the amp I learned about c3g and 7n7 alternatives. Ordered 7n7 adapter and tubes. Now that the amp is delayed even more, I learn about 6c8g...I will not buy adapter and tubes now, as I first need to understand if I can hear the difference between the other tubes... supposed the amp actually arrives


 
  
 Curious -
  
 How long has your wait been thus far, nephilim?
  
 .


----------



## mordy

Hi hypnos 1,
  
 The Elise has almost 100 hours on it now, so I guess that it should be burned in by now. I really like this amp, and that is the main thing.
  
 At this time I have overdosed on tube rolling, and I am just going to enjoy listening to the supplied stock tubes for a while. Tried a combination of my unsung heroes RCA 6SN7GTB 1965/67 with the top heater wire together with the 1958 Chatham 6AS7G. This combination was quite nice. The RCA were not as sweet as the Tung Sol 6SN&GTB reissues, but the Chathams had more punch in the bass than the 6H13C tubes.
  
 Don't worry, I haven't given up on the C3gS tubes; for sure they are more resolving than the TS tubes - I just have to find the right power tubes to pair them with. Have a pair of RCA 6AS7 and various 6080 tubes to try, and some 6BX7and 6BL7  as well.
  
 As you know, there is a vast pool of Elise owners out there, and I am sure that interesting tube combinations are going to be suggested. My amp, which just was delivered, turns out to be serial #9 based on well informed insider sources.
  
 All jokes aside, this is a serious amp, and I am sure that as it's reputation picks up, many more people will buy it.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## nephilim

jazzvinyl said:


> Curious -
> 
> How long has your wait been thus far, nephilim?
> 
> .


 

 I ordered mine exactly a month ago.


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> I ordered mine exactly a month ago.




That's not too bad, considering the handmade nature of the product and its recent addition to the line. I wrote a bit about the wait time and he likely reasons for it in a previous post - it may be on the preceding page.


----------



## nephilim

It's OK. I contacted Lukasz after the initially predicted 2 weeks delivery period. He mentioned the numerous holidays in Poland (which we enjoy in Germany, too ) and expected another 2 weeks delay. However, I still haven't received the promised notification that the Elise even went into build... I guess they are just too busy and I'm not complaining... just feeling a bit impatient


----------



## Anathema123

nephilim said:


> It's OK. I contacted Lukasz after the initially predicted 2 weeks delivery period. He mentioned the numerous holidays in Poland (which we enjoy in Germany, too ) and expected another 2 weeks delay. However, I still haven't received the promised notification that the Elise even went into build... I guess they are just too busy and I'm not complaining... just feeling a bit impatient


 
 For what it's worth, I ordered last week and I was told there'd be a 5-6 week wait.
  
 Yours should (hopefully) be on their way sooner rather than later.


----------



## CITIZENLIN

Hello all,
  
 I've been away from Headfi for few months, The first week of catching up on reading, I ended up buying ELISE. Yes, I ordered it today. I love music but not very good with managing finance. I am excited to hear many people here love Elise.


----------



## mordy

Hi CitizenLin,
  
 Congratulations! You are not going to be disappointed - this is a gem!


----------



## CITIZENLIN

Hello mordy
  
  
 Long time no see, Hope you all are doing good, ( Colin, ilm2, gibosi, mikelap , TDragon.... . ) How is Elise compare to your LD mk iii with external PSU 6080/6s7g/ C3g combo? I didn't upgrade external pus on my LD MK IV and still enjoying them. What is your favorite combo tubes on Elise so far?
  


mordy said:


> Hi CitizenLin,
> 
> Congratulations! You are not going to be disappointed - this is a gem!


----------



## mordy

Hi hypnos 1,
  
 The tube rolling overdose wore off, and I am back at the tedious job of ferreting out the best sounding combination of tubes for me.
  
 One thing that surprises me is that not all the tubes that worked best for me in the Little Dot MKIII are necessarily the best in the Elise. They are contenders, but.....
  
 The Sylvania 6080WB power tubes that I loved in the LD did not sound as good in the Elise. Tried Chatham 6AS7G - sounded better. Then I tried the Chatham 6080 with the RCA 6SN7GTB and the Tung Sol 6SN7GTB - even better, with the nod going to the reissue Tung Sol combination.
  
 BUT, the C3g tubes bring out more detail and clarity; I just have to find power tubes that make them sing instead of talk.
  
 'Things go Better with *Coke*' as the slogan goes. In this case I put in a pair of RCA 6AS7G coke bottle tubes. Suddenly the sound warms up and the amp sings more than before, but I still have the exquisite detail and clarity. (Funny, the RCAs did not strike a chord in the LD.)
  
 Imagine listening to the same recording that I have listened to for over four decades and suddenly hear new details that I never heard before - wow!
  
 I am not finished yet - have some more tubes to try, but at least I am getting closer. Then I am going to embark on the power cord project to see if I have something sitting around that lowers the hum. Not that the hum is a problem - I can only hear hum with the music off and the volume at unlistenable super loud levels.


----------



## mordy

Hi CN,
  
 There is no contest; the Elise is far superior to the modded MKIII. _There is no going back._
  
 Feeling may way around for tubes. However, the stock tubes that the Elise comes with are very good. A step up are the C3gS with the hypnos made adapters.


----------



## Shaffer

citizenlin said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I've been away from Headfi for few months, The first week of catching up on reading, I ended up buying ELISE. Yes, I ordered it today. I love music but not very good with managing finance. I am excited to hear many people here love Elise.




Congratulations! I think this is one of the biggest bargains in audio.


----------



## Lord Raven

I'm closely following the posts. Looks like only 9 amplifiers have been delivered so far and Mordy makes it sound like if you don't have a lot of tubes sitting in your closet, you won't be able to enjoy the stock setup :/ I wish him luck to finally find a pair that sounds best so that us noobs could straight away buy it and finally enjoy some singing of Elise rather talking 

Lastly, congratulations to new Elise owners who are waiting in line for their amplifier to arrive like myself  I hope I'll get the serial number 10 Hehe wish me luck!


----------



## MusclePharm

What difference does a serial number do? Is it like a newer version of the Amp? If it is I might better wait some more time...


----------



## nephilim

According to this thread there was just a change in the very beginning, when the tube socket was raised such that adapters can be used more easily.
  
 Btw... just received the notification that my amp is in testing phase and will ship by the end of the week!!!


----------



## Lord Raven

musclepharm said:


> What difference does a serial number do? Is it like a newer version of the Amp? If it is I might better wait some more time...


 
 Bro there is no difference, I was just being an OCD  I could get 11 or 12 either, no difference..


----------



## Lorspeaker

u could get lucky "13"


----------



## mordy

The only change in the Elise was that originally only Russian power tubes could be used because they have a narrower base, and the hole in the top plate was too small to fit other power tubes with a wider base.
  
 The first solution was to include adapters that would allow the wider tubes to be used. After this a more elegant solution was found - simply to raise the socket to be slightly above the top plate, thus making the adapters unnecessary.
  
 Now, don't take me wrong on the stock tubes: they are very good. It's just that I have a bunch of other tubes that I accumulated in the past for a different amplifier, and I would like to try the ones that are compatible in the Elise.
  
 The Feliks company designed the Elise to use two dual triode 6SN7 tubes (or their equivalents) wired in parallel  to be used as the driver tubes. On the Little Dot thread people discovered a super quality pentode tube that could be used with special adapters as driver tubes - the Siemens C3g. The 6SN7 uses an octal socket; the C3g uses a different loctal socket with a different pinout. Apparently the Feliks company has not tried this tube in the Elise, and claims that it will need special circuitry to be used, and even offered to design a model for this tube for an additional fee.
  
 Hypnos 1 was able to figure out how to use this tube with his own custom built adapters in the Elise. So far, he, Renderman and me have tried this combination with his adapters with excellent results.  However, the stock tubes supplied with the amp sets it apart and the amp as such is very enjoyable on its own.
  
 Re final testing and shipping - this stage goes very quickly, at least in my case - shipping only took three days.


----------



## nephilim

They have updated the website. The $499 offer is a special offer now, valid until June 20nd. Order now


----------



## MusclePharm

nephilim said:


> They have updated the website. The $499 offer is a special offer now, valid until June 20nd. Order now


 

 Thank you for the heads up, I guess they read my last post. hehe


----------



## hypnos1

citizenlin said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I've been away from Headfi for few months, The first week of catching up on reading, I ended up buying ELISE. Yes, I ordered it today. I love music but not very good with managing finance. I am excited to hear many people here love Elise.


 
  
 Welcome to the Elise club, C...and welcome back from your sojourn! You will not be disappointed - all the guys have already given you plenty of encouragement it looks like, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 Mordy....seems you're getting closer to your "sweet spot"...keep it up!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Aha...looks like Shaffer's suspicions re the price of the Elise were spot on...UNFORTUNATELY! (but inevitable, alas...).
  
 Nephelim....glad you've got more news re your amp....great!
  
 And cheers once more to everyone....


----------



## hypnos1

lorspeaker said:


> fantastic....u are having FUN, adding a goldensheen of honey to that sound  !!


 
  
 Hi L.
  
 Just another quickie from one of my midnight sessions... in honour of your tongue-in-cheek mention of gold lol!
  
 Despite certain misgivings about blowing the cash, "golden honey" is the perfect term for what is filling my ears right now... along with sheer BLISS...
  
 This multiple combination of metals is a gift from the Gods for my Beyer T1s - helped no doubt by connecting them direct to the tube's pins and forming the three main ones as actual pins for the amp's socket. And this is with just one completed so far!
  
 So thanks once again for your musings!! ...but I need some sleep!!!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Hello Mordy....

The Elise is "far superior" to the modded LD MKIII? "No contest"?

This is a very strong endorsement, indeed.

I wondered (during the design phase) why the Elise was not designed to accept the C3g from the outset?

If the C3g surpasses all others for drivers...why not just just bite the bullet and design the amp to employ said beast as standard?

I am really tempted to order the Elise. I am in LD MKIV / C3gS as drivers and 6sn7 as powers, land.

If the Elise is far superior to the LD's that were one step further modded to use the 6as7g as power tubes...then, it seems like a no brainier...order an Elise!!

Is the 70 dollar Russian Tung Sol as upgrade worth it? Or go with stock and start discussing C3g adapters from Hypnos1?

Appreciate your thoughts....





mordy said:


> Hi CN,
> 
> There is no contest; the Elise is far superior to the modded MKIII. _There is no going back._
> 
> Feeling may way around for tubes. However, the stock tubes that the Elise comes with are very good. A step up are the C3gS with the hypnos made adapters.


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> I wondered (during the design phase) why the Elise was not designed to accept the C3g from the outset?
> 
> If the C3g surpasses all others for drivers...why not just just bite the bullet and design the amp to employ said beast as standard?


 
  
 The C3g does not surpass all others. For sure it is an extremely good tube, one of the very best. However, everyone has different ears and different gear, and therefore, there is no one single tube that everyone will experience as the "Holy Grail" of vacuum tubes. And further, there are several versions of the C3g out there. I have two, Lorenz and Siemens, each with different sonics. So which one is the best? Or the E80CC, which due to the fact that it has significantly lower distortion than a C3g, some consider to be the best? Again, everyone has different ears and different gear.....
  
 Cheers


----------



## lukeap69

I see that Elise has reached many homes now... Has anybody heard it with the HD800? I am debating whether to get this or Glenn's OTL amp. The 499 introductory price is very tempting. If it is on par with Glenn's OTL amp, then I will need to decide quickly! 20th June is fast approaching.


----------



## mordy

Hi JazzVinyl,
  
 There is an announcement on the Feliks website that all new Elise amps will get the Tung Sol upgrade. Possibly they will include them in the introductory price of $499 that expires June 20 - you would have to ask. Then the price jumps to $649 with the Tung Sol tubes.
  
  As Gibosi points out, there is no one best tube, but certain tubes are better than others, as a group. Then you have to pick what suits your taste and your equipment the best. I would not be surprised if somebody would prefer the sound of the Tung Sol Reissue tubes in the Elise over the C3g tubes - it comes down to analytical vs musical.
  
 (I tried to demonstrate the differences graphically with the razor sharp picture of the sailboats and the impressionist style painting, but nobody commented on it.)
  
 The superiority of the Elise over a heavily modded MKIII is the effortlessness, quickness, extended bass and treble, and the clarity and instrument separation. Again, this is in my system - YMMV.
  
 There is an immediacy and sweetness to the sound that is beguiling.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Hello Mordy...
  
 There is no offer to include the Tung Sol tubes with the $499.00 price,  that I can see.  I was quoted $569.00 for the Tung Sol's plus $65.00 shipping, yesterday.
  
 The site does say:
  
 "Starting from June 21st, even the standard version of Elise will include upgraded driver tubes (Tung-Sol 6SN7, matched pair). At the same time new starting price of Elise will be 649$"
  
 You super-early adaptor's who got the Tung Sol's thrown in for the $499.00, got a heck of a deal 
  
 I did see your 'visual comparison' post.  But didn't make sense to me, because of the different scenes.  Maybe if you had shown the super clear vs "monet"  version of the same scene?
  
 I figure most would enjoy the super clear version, best, but I will be interested in hearing from those who will find the best versions of "non-adapted" tubes to use in the Elise.
  
 I have asked Lukasz to send me an invoice for the $569.00 Tung Sol,  Elise 
  
 He said the wait is approx 6 weeks, will notify if ready sooner.
  
 See ya...
  
  
  
  
 Quote:


mordy said:


> Hi JazzVinyl,
> 
> There is an announcement on the Feliks website that all new Elise amps will get the Tung Sol upgrade. Possibly they will include them in the introductory price of $499 that expires June 20 - you would have to ask. Then the price jumps to $649 with the Tung Sol tubes.
> 
> ...


----------



## K4RL

Hey all,
  
 First post here. I've been lurking for some time and ended up here after searching for an OTL to compliment my HD650s and DT880/600s [spotted shaffer's post about Elise in a beyerdynamic appreciation thread]. I ordered the Elise about a week ago, but I opted to pass on the tung-sol drivers. I'm curious what the hullabaloo is about with regard to these tubes. Aren't these the same new production TS 6SN7GTB tubes you can buy for ~$25 a piece? As far as I can tell, a matched pair of these should be more in the neighborhood of 55 or 60 bucks if you're paying full price. Now the +$70 isn't far off, but somehow I expected the tubes to be a tad cheaper than normal if you bought their amp & tube bundle together. I'm wondering if someone can let me know whether I'm looking at the wrong tubes or if the Elise comes with some other kind of TS 6SN7.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> jazzvinyl said:
> 
> 
> > I wondered (during the design phase) why the Elise was not designed to accept the C3g from the outset?
> ...


 
 i agree,personnally i think that  half the fun in tube amps is savouring those different flavors and at one point no amp sounds really bad just different and that's where the fun is for me, and i do love collecting those little and not so little glass beauties.


----------



## mordy

Hi K4RL,
  
 As far as I know the Tung Sols are standard reissue Russian tubes with the difference that the box states "Selection."
  

 \
 This is what came with the Elise. Though I never read any superlative reviews of these tubes ("the NOS sound better etc etc")  they sound absolutely beautiful in the Elsie with the stock 6H13C "Winged C" power tubes.
 As Mikelap points out, part of the fun with these amps is to roll different tubes and tube combinations and alter the sound. At this time I am running C3g and RCA 6AS7. This allows for more detail and captures to a certain extent the sweetness and warmth of the Tung Sol stock tube set up.
  
 As time goes by, more people will try different things and hopefully come up with great tube rolling suggestions. IMHO there is no need to think that great sound requires tubes that cost mega dollars. And there is no need for matched pairs and cryo treatments and snake oil dampers.
  
 With a little patience you could snag good deals. So far I am able to stick to my self imposed rule of not more than $8/tube, and not more than $18 for very special tubes. (I do notice though that prices are going up...)
  
 Cheers,


----------



## K4RL

Thanks mordy. I'm not sure what "Selection" signifies, but that does appear to be the very same tube I've found elsewhere. Maybe I'll save myself 10 bucks and pick up a pair while I wait for the amp to arrive.
  
 I'm hoping the Elise will be a suitable upgrade from the BH Crack, which I've been using for ~2 years. I never got into tube rolling myself, but I'm certainly familiar with the idea. I was satisfied just to find a couple of tubes that worked, including the winged C that now comes in the Elise. I can attempt to compare the two amps when the Elise gets in, but I don't think my ears are very discerning.


----------



## Shaffer

I have both sets of the Tung-Sols, factory and "stock." So far, I've only used the non-factory Tung-Sols, but I'll replace them with the factory bottles - one they're burned in - and see if there's an audible difference.

Edit: The pair of Tung-Sols sent by Feliks have a printed sticker saying (roughly translated from Polish), "good pair." The Selection sticker must be relatively new. My Polish isn't great - can't speak, but can read and understand a lot of it - so please take that into account. The tubes are dated 11/14. I just started burning them in. Give me a 7-10 days and we'll see what happens.


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> Hello Mordy....
> 
> The Elise is "far superior" to the modded LD MKIII? "No contest"?
> 
> ...


 
  Hi JazzVinyl.
  
 Congrats on taking the plunge before the price hike!
  
 As for using the C3g from the outset, as gibosi says this is one great tube amongst many others and personal preference must come into play here of course. Configuring for just the C3g would have meant no choice to accommodate such differences - and this desire to appeal to a wide audience was the whole original ethos behind the project and my initial suggestion to the Feliks guys.
  
 I personally - along with a good many other devotees of the C3g -  have come to find this tube can provide just the right kind of sound I (we) prefer, and without having to spend the kind of silly prices many alternative top-tier tubes can command...especially NOS tubes. So at the end of the day each can make his/her own choice based upon the findings of others...which is still not too easy because of vast differences in system set-ups of course, not to mention ears lol! This not-very-exact/scientific nature of tube amplification is the very thing that attracts many to this rather 'mad' hobby of ours...but which also of course allows us to 'tweak' things to our own particular preferences.
  
 So GOOD LUCK with your own 'tweaking', JV!!
  


k4rl said:


> Hey all,
> 
> First post here. I've been lurking for some time and ended up here after searching for an OTL to compliment my HD650s and DT880/600s [spotted shaffer's post about Elise in a beyerdynamic appreciation thread]. I ordered the Elise about a week ago, but I opted to pass on the tung-sol drivers. I'm curious what the hullabaloo is about with regard to these tubes. Aren't these the same new production TS 6SN7GTB tubes you can buy for ~$25 a piece? As far as I can tell, a matched pair of these should be more in the neighborhood of 55 or 60 bucks if you're paying full price. Now the +$70 isn't far off, but somehow I expected the tubes to be a tad cheaper than normal if you bought their amp & tube bundle together. I'm wondering if someone can let me know whether I'm looking at the wrong tubes or if the Elise comes with some other kind of TS 6SN7.


 
  
  


k4rl said:


> Thanks mordy. I'm not sure what "Selection" signifies, but that does appear to be the very same tube I've found elsewhere. Maybe I'll save myself 10 bucks and pick up a pair while I wait for the amp to arrive.
> 
> I'm hoping the Elise will be a suitable upgrade from the BH Crack, which I've been using for ~2 years. I never got into tube rolling myself, but I'm certainly familiar with the idea. I was satisfied just to find a couple of tubes that worked, including the winged C that now comes in the Elise. I can attempt to compare the two amps when the Elise gets in, but I don't think my ears are very discerning.


 
  
 Hi K4RL.
  
 Congrats to you also...another lucky one to beat the price hike, lol!
  
 I was hoping a BH Crack owner would go for the Elise...and here you are.... GREAT! I can't wait to hear your impressions of how they compare...but I suppose I, like you, must be patient a while yet!!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Looks like I will get "Lucky 13" - just paid the invoice,  and it reads: "Invoice number 0013"


----------



## agnostic1er

lukeap69 said:


> I see that Elise has reached many homes now... Has anybody heard it with the HD800? I am debating whether to get this or Glenn's OTL amp. The 499 introductory price is very tempting. If it is on par with Glenn's OTL amp, then I will need to decide quickly! 20th June is fast approaching.


 
 Hello,
  
 I just ordered an Elise after having tested an Espressivo on my HD800. My present headamp is a SS diy one, very quiet and accurate but rendering a too much lean sound (with or without 41ohm added resistors at the output). I discovered this Feliks Audio brand on this site (head gear).
 Espressivo is HUGELY dynamical (more dynamical than i.e. Audiovalve RKV2 and much more than DNA sonett2 previously tested), nicely detailed even in the bass-range but, at least for my taste, a bit too forward in the high-mid and low-treble. Treble isn't extended but it is pleasant, without shooting the 6.5kHz and with a nice definition. Would it be a tad more extended in this range and in the sub-bass I would have been enough pleased to keep it. I guess Espressivo should make a great job with a HD650 for example.
 So after some mails with Lukasz I decided to send the Espressivo back to Poland and ordered the Elise which should be more adapted to the HD800. Lukasz will provide me drivers tubes that will give me the best possible tonal range (dixit Lukasz).
 I hope to be satsfied and from what I heard from Espressivo I'm relatively confident. 5 weeks to wait... I will post after burn-in if you guys are interested.
 Sorry for my limited english.


----------



## lukeap69

agnostic1er said:


> Hello,
> 
> I just ordered an Elise after having tested an Espressivo on my HD800. My present headamp is a SS diy one, very quiet and accurate but rendering a too much lean sound (with or without 41ohm added resistors at the output). I discovered this Feliks Audio brand on this site (head gear).
> Espressivo is HUGELY dynamical (more dynamical than i.e. Audiovalve RKV2 and much more than DNA sonett2 previously tested), nicely detailed even in the bass-range but, at least for my taste, a bit too forward in the high-mid and low-treble. Treble isn't extended but it is pleasant, without shooting the 6.5kHz and with a nice definition. Would it be a tad more extended in this range and in the sub-bass I would have been enough pleased to keep it. I guess Espressivo should make a great job with a HD650 for example.
> ...


 
 Very much interested with your impressions... Cheers mate.


----------



## agnostic1er

lukeap69 said:


> Very much interested with your impressions... Cheers mate.


 
 I will do Luke 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
 edit: Arnold, just saw your signature, LOL


----------



## lukeap69

agnostic1er said:


> I will do Luke
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## agnostic1er

lukeap69 said:


>


 
 don't call me agnostic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








 how did you know I visited a new micro brewery this afternoon?


----------



## CITIZENLIN

jazzvinyl said:


> Looks like I will get "Lucky 13" - just paid the invoice,  and it reads: "Invoice number 0013"


 
 Hello JazzV
  
 Lucky 13 sounds good. I put my order in 2 days ago. I receive paypal receipt but no invoice from Feliks. Do I need to request copy of invoice?


----------



## Lorspeaker

Place is getting crowded....


----------



## mordy

Hi CL,
  
 Don't worry - when the amp is ready to be shipped the invoice will show up in your email.
  
 Edit - did you already pay for it?


----------



## mordy

Hi Ag1,
  
 Your English is very good. The only thing I did not understand was "dixit Lukasz". Of course we all want to hear about  your experience with the amp when it comes.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Hello Citizelin...
  
 Since I am in the USA, I was told to wait for a paypal invoice to be emailed, because, the USA shipping is more than is listed on the site (which is figured for EU shipping).
  
 My invoice is #0013, but that may or may not reflect the actual # of Elise's built...
  
  
  
 Quote:


citizenlin said:


> Hello JazzV
> 
> Lucky 13 sounds good. I put my order in 2 days ago. I receive paypal receipt but no invoice from Feliks. Do I need to request copy of invoice?


----------



## Lord Raven

I did not pay or anything, no one asked me to pay, but still my order is in queue. How cool is that? 
  
 IIRC, I asked Lukasz for payment and he said I can pay later, order date was 24th May.


----------



## CITIZENLIN

mordy said:


> Hi CL,
> 
> Don't worry - when the amp is ready to be shipped the invoice will show up in your email.
> 
> Edit - did you already pay for it?


 
 Hello, mordy,
  
  
  
 Yes, I paid via paypal. JazzV made me curious about my invoice. Haha Going to be long few weeks.


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> Place is getting crowded....


 
 When are you ordering, is the question


----------



## CITIZENLIN

jazzvinyl said:


>


 
 Hello JazzV
  
  
 I am also in US. I paid it(including shipping ) via paypal and did get the email from paypal. Can't wait to hear this E gem.


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 Just want to point out that you can use Google Translate to get instant translations of a many languages. I used it when accessing the Feliks site, and have used it in communicating with Russian tube sellers with good results.
  
 There is a possibility that Feliks tests and matches the tubes that they send out with the amps.


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Hi Shaffer,
> 
> Just want to point out that you can use Google Translate to get instant translations of a many languages. I used it when accessing the Feliks site, and have used it in communicating with Russian tube sellers with good results.




Oh, I know, but what fun is that? 



> There is a possibility that Feliks tests and matches the tubes that they send out with the amps.




Agreed, especially given their attention to detail.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi everybody.
  
 Great to see the interest here..."The early birds DO catch the worm", lol!
  
 Congrats to you all, and I look forward to a whole pile of impressions...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## agnostic1er

mordy said:


> Hi Ag1,
> 
> Your English is very good. The only thing I did not understand was "dixit Lukasz". Of course we all want to hear about  your experience with the amp when it comes.


 
 Hi mordy,
  
 Thanks for regarding my English as being good; I know it's actually not true but the main thing is that it is comprehensible.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Placed before a name, "dixit" is a latin word meaning "he said".
 I wonder if anyone in this thread listened to the Espressivo...?


----------



## Lorspeaker

The intro price is overrrr...


----------



## Lord Raven

Looks like I saved some money  I would've bought Felix's LD MK3 and called it a day if I were late lol


----------



## Shaffer

[ducking] I just brought another amplifier [/ducking]

A Darkvoice 336SE. Why? Because, for whatever reason I always wanted one. And, I already have the tubes for it. I don't expect Elise-like performance, but I do hope to have some fun with it.


----------



## Lord Raven

I feel betrayed :|


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> I feel betrayed :|




Oh, it's just another toy. 

I don't expect it to be my main amp by any measure, but I do hope to tune it to make some of the Bandcamp downloads listenable. Not with the same degree of resolution, of course. Shooting for euphoric sins of omission.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> [ducking] I just brought another amplifier [/ducking]
> 
> A Darkvoice 336SE. Why? Because, for whatever reason I always wanted one. And, I already have the tubes for it. I don't expect Elise-like performance, but I do hope to have some fun with it.


 
  
 In my opinion, everyone here should thank you! 
  
 I have wondered how amps with only one 6AS7 compare to those with two. Do two output tubes provide more power, so to speak? And so I, for one, will be very interested to hear your impressions.


----------



## mordy

Regarding driver tubes,perhaps the Elise proves that two dual triodes (in series) provide better sound than one dual triode. Somehow, it makes sense to me that two separate tubes would sound better than one dual tube. And then we have this:


----------



## Shaffer

When I was in high school, I had a little Lafayette integrated with dual volume knobs. I loathed that feature to the point of promising myself never to buy a control component with dual knobs. This came to the test some years later, when I was offered a Modulus 3A at accommodation pricing. It was a fantastic sounding preamp with a killer phono stage, but, alas, dual volume knobs. So, after MUCH deliberation, I passed. I guess my point is, if it weren't for the LF339's dual volume knobs, I probably would have had one.

I'm really looking forward to the 336SE. Even though I ordered it to night, I want it here tomorrow!

BTW, I drove headphones with a line out on the Lafayette and an adapter. Ahh...those were the days of non-demanding audio. Kinda miss that....


----------



## Shaffer

My LDIII is sold. Took less than 24 hours. I didn't expect that.

Naturally, I already spent the proceeds: AKG K7XX cans. I love the K70X series; the bass modded K702 are my favorite cans, so I'm very anxious to hear the K7XX. And, I bought some tubes, of course. 

Without listing it all, picked up a single Raytheon 6080 to try in the DV336SE. I figured $10, hard to lose, and it tests very well. Bought some tube boxes, as well, and more RCA 6080. I really like them in the Elise.

Speaking of tube boxes (I buy the white ones), I'm sure many saw the pic of two large cardboard containers full of tubes, broken, after falling on the floor. Heartbreaking. I can't help thinking that some breakage may have been avoided, had the tubes been in their own boxes.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> My LDIII is sold. Took less than 24 hours. I didn't expect that.
> 
> Naturally, I already spent the proceeds: AKG K7XX cans. I love the K70X series; the bass modded K702 are my favorite cans, so I'm very anxious to hear the K7XX. And, I bought some tubes, of course.


 
  
 Thats great Shaffer! I think it had a lot to do with the very good price for the very complete package 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I have also ordered a pair of K7XXs va Massdrop, comments by others (like yours) made me very curious about these AKGs. Hope they will arrive soon. This will be my first pair of AKG headphones so fingers crossed I will like what I hear 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Still wanting to sell some 6SN7 (equivalents) if anyone is interested. If not I will go ahead and put them on the FS section. Still loving the C3gs.


----------



## nephilim

Congrats, Felix. I will probably also sell my Mk3 soon. 

My Elise should arrive today. Still feeling curious if this OTL amp can deliver enough current at low ohms to drive the K712 properly.


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> Congrats, Felix. I will probably also sell my Mk3 soon.




Mine just sat there after getting the Elise. It's a good amp. Someone should enjoy it.



> My Elise should arrive today.




Outstanding!



> Still feeling curious if this OTL amp can deliver enough current at low ohms to drive the K712 properly.




I think you'll be surprised by quality the sound with the AKGs. ATM, I'm listening to [my] bass mix - it goes low, in turn demanding a lot of current. I'm using bass modded K702, the bassiest (if you will) cans I have - they drink current. The amp has an iron grip on the low-end. Even relatively bass-light HPs like AD900x seem to gain an extra octave of extension down low. Hard to imagine, I now. Hell, why am I telling you this? You'll find out soon enough.


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Thats great Shaffer! I think it had a lot to do with the very good price for the very complete package




Agreed. When selling, my I try to list the item at the lowest possible price. I mean, how much more can I get for it, $20-$30? I'd rather sell it quickly, then sit on it for the cost of a large pizza. 



> I have also ordered a pair of K7XXs va Massdrop, comments by others (like yours) made me very curious about these AKGs. Hope they will arrive soon. This will be my first pair of AKG headphones so fingers crossed I will like what I hear




I understand they don't sound as analytical as the K70X series without losing their resolution. I just don't know if I can live with the discomfort of the bumpless headband. LOL!

_[Many seeminly normal folks complain about the older K-series headband due to its bumps. Never bothered me, and one can literally count the hairs on top of my head. I assume that most of the complaners have hair. My wife, who thankfully does have hair, can't even feel the bumps.]_



> Still wanting to sell some 6SN7 (equivalents) if anyone is interested. If not I will go ahead and put them on the FS section. Still loving the C3gs.




I'm still having issues getting the C3g to work in my amp, but we're working on it. I wish I hadn't spent all my money; I'd love to take the tall bottle 7N7 off your hands.


----------



## Shaffer

It just occurred to me, after reading the board this morning, that this is likely one of the friendliest threads on Head-Fi, if not the friendliest. It's nice. Really nice.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> It just occurred to me, after reading the board this morning, that this is likely one of the friendliest threads on Head-Fi, if not the friendliest. It's nice. Really nice.


 
 Agreed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Very friendly and well behaved board, very positive atmosphere not in the least part by the attitude of Hypnos1 and yourself. Lets try to keep it up! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


> Agreed. When selling, my I try to list the item at the lowest possible price. I mean, how much more can I get for it, $20-$30? I'd rather sell it quickly, then sit on it for the cost of a large pizza.


 
  
 I do the same thing when selling my gear, I dont expect to get back what I paid for it and I don't feel that's necessary as I already had some enjoyment from the gear.
  


> I understand they don't sound as analytical as the K70X series without losing their resolution. I just don't know if I can live with the discomfort of the bumpless headband. LOL!


 
  
 Musical but very resolving... very interesting. Really curious about these, will probably receive them next week.
  


> I'm still having issues getting the C3g to work in my amp, but we're working on it. I wish I hadn't spent all my money; I'd love to take the tall bottle 7N7 off your hands.


 
  
 If I had any 7N7s, they would be yours! Unfortunately I don't own any 7N7s. I'll PM you a list of the 6SN7s I have.


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> It just occurred to me, after reading the board this morning, that this is likely one of the friendliest threads on Head-Fi, if not the friendliest. It's nice. Really nice.


 
  
 That's really nice to hear, S...I was hoping we could establish at least some of the magic I found the last couple of years with the marvellous guys over at the Little Dot Tube Amp Vacuum Tube Rolling Guide, where I cut my teeth in tube amp land - and all you guys are helping to pretty well EQUAL that magic!....CHEERS guys...
  
 Keep up the good work....


----------



## nephilim

011 has landed  What a beautiful amp - it's been running for 3h but I'm already enjoying a much tighter and powerful sound than with the Mk3. Treble was a bit harsh at first but this should go away soon I guess. Bass is beautiful and better refined than before. Songs which sounded mushy before have improved a lot. No regrets at all 
  
 The amp itself is so clean and stealthy - I really like it. Lukasz was so nice to follow my request and made a version w/o the badge on the trafo housing. I was picky enough to spot two scratches on the casing but they are only visible from certain angles so I guess I can concentrate on the sound and forget those tiny defects.
  
 Now looking forward to the 7N7 tubes which are currently stuck in customs.


----------



## Renderman

Great news nephilim! I'm glad you are enjoying the amplifier so far! I would indeed imagine the treble getting better over time.
 You should post some pics! Would love to see what your Elise looks like without the badge


----------



## MIKELAP

Ya guys how about some pictures havent seen much yet, because everybody knows that  :


----------



## agnostic1er

nephilim, pics, yes!
 but why did you want it without the badge?


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> 011 has landed  What a beautiful amp - it's been running for 3h but I'm already enjoying a much tighter and powerful sound than with the Mk3. Treble was a bit harsh at first but this should go away soon I guess. Bass is beautiful and better refined than before. Songs which sounded mushy before have improved a lot. No regrets at all
> 
> The amp itself is so clean and stealthy - I really like it. Lukasz was so nice to follow my request and made a version w/o the badge on the trafo housing. I was picky enough to spot two scratches on the casing but they are only visible from certain angles so I guess I can concentrate on the sound and forget those tiny defects.
> 
> Now looking forward to the 7N7 tubes which are currently stuck in customs.


 
  
 Glad you like her nephilim...
  
 Yes, that treble will ease - in fact everything will keep improving for a good many hours yet (well over 50+).
  
 I do hope you get those 7N7s soon - they will give a good jump in performance, to be sure!
  
 You're in for some REAL enjoyment in the weeks to come...keep us posted....


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> 011 has landed  What a beautiful amp - it's been running for 3h but I'm already enjoying a much tighter and powerful sound than with the Mk3. Treble was a bit harsh at first but this should go away soon I guess. Bass is beautiful and better refined than before. Songs which sounded mushy before have improved a lot. No regrets at all
> 
> The amp itself is so clean and stealthy - I really like it. Lukasz was so nice to follow my request and made a version w/o the badge on the trafo housing. I was picky enough to spot two scratches on the casing but they are only visible from certain angles so I guess I can concentrate on the sound and forget those tiny defects.
> 
> ...




Good to hear everything arrived safely! As H1 mentioned, the amp will mellow out in ~150 hours, maybe even less time. Lukasz's 50 hour estimate is somewhat optimistic. What's nice is that the amp will be fully broken in before the 7N7s arrive. You'll be able to observe for yourself how the world's leanest, most sibilant tube transforms itself into transparency with no negative artifacts. It does take time, longest burnin I've encountered. 

Congratulations! Now we get to call you 011.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Yeah for #011...!!
  
 Looking forward to more listening impressions!
  
 Sounds like we have another happy owner, at this point!!
  
 Very Cool,
  
 Congrats, *nephilim!*
  
  
  
 Quote:


nephilim said:


> 011 has landed  What a beautiful amp - it's been running for 3h but I'm already enjoying a much tighter and powerful sound than with the Mk3. Treble was a bit harsh at first but this should go away soon I guess. Bass is beautiful and better refined than before. Songs which sounded mushy before have improved a lot. No regrets at all
> 
> The amp itself is so clean and stealthy - I really like it. Lukasz was so nice to follow my request and made a version w/o the badge on the trafo housing. I was picky enough to spot two scratches on the casing but they are only visible from certain angles so I guess I can concentrate on the sound and forget those tiny defects.
> 
> Now looking forward to the 7N7 tubes which are currently stuck in customs.


----------



## mordy

Beyerdynamic T1 for $670
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beyerdynamic-T1-Tesla-Audiophile-Stereo-Headphone/281729759861?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item419866fa75


----------



## nephilim

What I noticed last night is how powerful yet controlled the bass is. It seems to be a bit leaner than the LD Mk3 but then you notice that everything is there but just a bit quicker and less blooming. Very nice!
  
 Btw, 011 is also dead quiet - both through the phones and on the outside. My Mk3 had some trafo hum, which I could only reduce by going from 230V to 210-220V. The Elise is quiet out of the box.
  
 @agnostic1er: I like clean & simple designs and felt that the metal silver badge is a bit exaggerated. In my opinion an embossed or engraved logo would be more attractive. Just my personal taste


----------



## Lorspeaker

The bass is leaner than the LDmk3?? Geezzz


----------



## nephilim

I don't know if lean is the correct word... it's not that it has less bass than the Mk3 but it is more controlled and seems to jump in and decay more accurately.


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> The bass is leaner than the LDmk3?? Geezzz




Oh, sure, and the Moon is made out of Green Cheeze. Are you new to this thread? 

The Elise's bass has subterranean reach with a good deal of control, articulation, weight and slam galore. We've discussed this quite a bit.


----------



## nephilim

I guess lorspeaker was confused by the word "lean" I used before... Tried to correct this in my follow-up. I guess what I wanted to explain is "control and articulation"


----------



## Lorspeaker

nephilim said:


> What I noticed last night is how powerful yet controlled the bass is. It seems to be a bit leaner than the LD Mk3 but then you notice that everything is there but just a bit quicker and less blooming. Very nice!


 
  
  
 chills bro, your  initial description/impression is just as valid... 
 am sure u are over the moon with the new toy,
 do post your feedbacks as the amp breaks in ..relaxes...and stabilized 
  
 ...need a glass of wine n some cheeze


----------



## agnostic1er

nephilim said:


> What I noticed last night is how powerful yet controlled the bass is.
> 
> @agnostic1er: I like clean & simple designs and felt that the metal silver badge is a bit exaggerated. In my opinion an embossed or engraved logo would be more attractive. Just my personal taste


 
 When I listened to the FeliksAudio Espressivo with my HD800, bass range was really astonishing to my ears, at least for what I guessed coming from a tube gear: very well textured, controled and powerfull; just a bit too rolled off in sub-bass. Lukasz said me that Elise go deeper, that's parly why I ordered the Elise to complement my Senn.
 About the badge, wich is the same than on the Espressivo, I can understand your feeling; actually it is a bit on the middle-age of the aesthetics side and could be perfectly suited to a soldier helmet of this time age LOL.


----------



## mordy

The way my Elise is placed on my equipment rack I cannot even see the name plate LOL. BUT, as Shaffer pointed out, the front plate is a dust magnet for some reason. The next revision needs a different finish to look sparkling clean...
  

  
 U c the white stuff on the face plate? Dust....
  
 In this reiteration The Elise is is running Siemens C3gS driver tubes. Look pretty anonymous with the shields. Custom made adapters by H1.
  

  
 The power tubes are Stromberg-Carlson 6080 from May 1960 AKA RCA. (Stromberg-Carlson was a manufacturer/distributor - if you ordered 1000 tubes you could get your name on them. In the Elise they are glowing very bright:
  

  
 In the Little Dot MKIII these 1960 RCA tubes were among the best sounding power tubes. In the Elise they don't sound that good - a little slow to react, a hard hitting quality to the bass and not the greatest bass extension; not lively and engaging. Which only goes to show that the Elise is different than the Little Dot MKIII, but you knew that.
  
 People claim that the power tubes don't contribute that much to the sound - don't believe it. It is the difference between grape juice and wine; everything is affected. Since Shaffer likes cars I am going to try this (don't laugh):
  
 Think of a car's suspension. Here you have this little tin can of a car that jumps and bumps on every little imperfection of the road surface. This is a thin sounding and less controlling and less powerful power tube.
  
 Now you have a huge land yacht that wallows down the road with imprecise movements. It's comfortable but slow to react and smooths out and hides a lot of imperfections. That's the RCA 6080 above.
  
 Then you have the sporty car with a great suspension that keeps the car controlled and planted, yet you sense everything on the road surface. Everything, every nuance. Usually such a suspension is hard, but sometimes it can be compliant and comfortable as well. That's what I am looking for, but we all have different tastes and preferences. Anyhow, at this time these power tubes are in that category:
  

  
 These tubes are a "near pair" (saw a sign in a shoe store with a pair 7 and 71/2 labeled as such); a 1965 6AS7G and a 1973 6AS7. What they have in common is that they cost less $6 each shipped, look the same, and sound the same. The stock 6H13C look very similar and sound similar, a little sweeter than the RCA 6AS7 but with less punch in the bass
 (Lexus suspension?)
  
 The point I am trying to make is that the power tubes serve as a foundation for the sound and as such effect everything. I am going to continue rolling power tubes in the interest of unscientific exploration, even though I could just level off and enjoy the music with the C3g and RCA 6AS7 tubes...
  
 The fires are burning...


----------



## nephilim

A note on the amount of bass... recently I bought this beauty: http://www.hdtracks.de/saint-saens-symphony-no-3 The good thing about this recording is that they didn't cut off the organ's low frequencies. When I first heard it via the LD I thought a truck was outside of the house with the engine idling - and a helicopter circling above my head. Very impressive 
  
 The Elise is not there - yet. But it's just 10h old and on stock tubes. I wouldn't expect a baby to have a voice like Barry White 
  
 On the other hand... bass on conventional recordings sounds good.


----------



## Shaffer

Neph, if you look through the Elise tube rolling thread, you'll see a number of impressions I posted regarding various drivers. The amp had ~100-125 hours on it. A pair of early-50s Sylvania 6SN7GTA sounded very lean, not a whole lot of bass/lower-mids with limited extension. ~50 hours later the same tubes were bending the walls with a prodigious, slightly fat low-end. Give the Elise a bit more time and you may be just as surprised as I was.


----------



## nephilim

OK, I'll try to be more patient  May I ask who has a marker on the volume knob? If I remember correctly, Colin has a white dot on his sample but mordy's photos show a blank knob - just like mine.


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> OK, I'll try to be more patient  May I ask who has a marker on the volume knob? If I remember correctly, Colin has a white dot on his sample but mordy's photos show a blank knob - just like mine.




Blank knob, too. I kinda wanted the white dot. Thinking of asking my daughter paint one on.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Blank knob, too. I kinda wanted the white dot. Thinking of asking my daughter paint one on.


 
  
 I am using a small piece of automotive pin striping on my Audio-gd Fun.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Mordy...
  
 The front plate...in your pics, it looks to be a dull grey.  On the Felkis site, the front plate looks glossy black.
  
 Is it glossy black?  Or the dull grey?
  
 -- Need more pics from more owners, please --
  
  
  
 Quote:


mordy said:


> The way my Elise is placed on my equipment rack I cannot even see the name plate LOL. BUT, as Shaffer pointed out, the front plate is a dust magnet for some reason. The next revision needs a different finish to look sparkling clean...


----------



## Shaffer

The faceplate is matte black. Feliks uses several matching, complimentary finishes as a means of achieving a high aesthetic value. It's the cultural opposite of a drinks globe.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> The way my Elise is placed on my equipment rack I cannot even see the name plate LOL. BUT, as Shaffer pointed out, the front plate is a dust magnet for some reason. The next revision needs a different finish to look sparkling clean...
> 
> 
> 
> U c the white stuff on the face plate? Dust....


 
  
 Hey mordy....I didn't know you lived in a Texan Dust Bowl!... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...what IS going on??!!
  
 The matte textured surface does indeed collect/show the dust, but either a clean, damp cloth or a GOOD microfibre cloth does the job in a flash...shame on you, mon ami!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but will let you off THIS time!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. (Pics below that will hopefully dun show you the light!).
  


nephilim said:


> A note on the amount of bass... recently I bought this beauty: http://www.hdtracks.de/saint-saens-symphony-no-3 The good thing about this recording is that they didn't cut off the organ's low frequencies. When I first heard it via the LD I thought a truck was outside of the house with the engine idling - and a helicopter circling above my head. Very impressive
> 
> The Elise is not there - yet. But it's just 10h old and on stock tubes. I wouldn't expect a baby to have a voice like Barry White
> 
> On the other hand... bass on conventional recordings sounds good.


 
  
 Hi n.
  
 Your statements highlight perfectly the difficulty in gaining any kind of standard concensus/understanding of the sounds each of us hears, as none of us can really know just HOW someone else _perceives_ a particular sound/frequency of course. Add to that the myriad differences from one system to the next, and we enter a veritable minefield lol!!
  
 Re the LDMKIII's bass, I suspect the amp was deliberately designed to _emphasise_ this part of the frequency range - for better or worse. But to do so without causing other related, unwanted side-effects is to play a very dangerous game indeed...and that can only be won when played at a VERY high level, methinks...
  
 You did however hit on the Elise's ability to keep very tight control on the bass, which is delivered in a way that _enhances_ the overall sound rather than _dominate _it. It still has very good extension, coupled with fine detail, attack/punch/decay (or abrupt finish when called for).
  
 Now an amp at this (old or new!) price point is never going to punch at the same weight as a WA 22 I fear, so we have to be rather realistic here. But I must admit I'm now getting all the bass response I could ever want...in fact your mention of some organ music via HD Tracks got me thinking about trying some 192 kHz Bach and Widor Toccatas using the Elise as pre-amp to my Vincent SS amp and Dynaudio speakers...and all I can say is...PHENOMENAL...at ALL sections of the frequency range (bass included!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 So hang in there, mon ami...
  


jazzvinyl said:


>


 
  
 Hi JV.
  
 Further to my admonishment of mordy  (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) I would just like to confirm that with the occasional wipe with a cloth, that rather chic matte, textured finish stays looking good as new...and here's 2 pics to prove it (don't forget mine is now 6 months old, bless her!! ).
  
 It is indeed BLACK, but can have a greyish appearance depending on the angle of light - which I tried to demonstrate in my photos.
  
 And folks...yes, mine has a little white dot marker on the vol knob - can't really understand why it's absent on other units...must give Lukasz another buzz!
  

  

  
 Notice....not a speck of dust to be seen!...(Do I hear the gnashing of teeth?...or other??)....CHEERS!


----------



## JazzVinyl

Hello Hypnos1....

Very nice photos!!!

Makes me feel better, that the Amp will look nice as well as sound nice.

Hope mine does arrive with a white dot.

And nice to see you running with the default compliment of tubes. I hope that what I will be able to do as well. The default compliment -look- best in the unit, IMHO, no more "Frankenstein" looking amps 

Cheers....




			
				hypnos1 said:
			
		

> Hi JV.
> 
> Further to my admonishment of mordy  wink_face: ) I would just like to confirm that with the occasional wipe with a cloth, that rather chic matte, textured finish stays looking good as new...and here's 2 pics to prove it (don't forget mine is now 6 months old, bless her!! ).
> 
> ...


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> And nice to see you running with the default compliment of tubes. I hope that what I will be able to do as well. The default compliment -look- best in the unit, IMHO, no more "Frankenstein" looking amps


 
  
 Is this too "Frankensteinish" for you? But it sure sounds great!


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Is this too "Frankensteinish" for you? But it sure sounds great!




I like the way it looks, but can't say the same about my wife. Not that the latter matters a whole lot. Would LOVE to hear the amp.


----------



## gibosi

The 5998s coupled with a Tung-Sol 6F8G is a superb combination to my ears. And while a 6F8G with adapter is not as clean looking as a 6SN7, they can often be had for less money. And so I was wondering if JazzVinyl would find a pair of these acceptable... or not....


----------



## mordy

Hi H1,
  
 I am sorry if I offended anybody by publishing the picture of the Texas dust bowl face plate on the Elise. I was busy philosophizing over the merit of different power tubes and did not notice the dust on the face plate until I looked at the posted picture.
  
 Cringing in shame, I immediately dug down 2" at 11 o'clock on my desk and fished out this:
  

  
 It says dust magnet. Took out my magnetometer and determined that the face plate was negatively loaded and the shammy positively loaded - should work. Then I followed the instructions of H1 "a clean, damp cloth or a GOOD microfibre cloth does the job in a flash." Voila!
  

  
 Spotless! The day is saved! The finish is really darker than the picture shows - seems like a matte slightly rubberized finish. But what is this?
  

  

  
 Buried under layers of obsolescence I unearthed the name of the amp and the factory logo - bet u did not see that before! Feel bad for the guy who did not want any nameplate on the amp....
  
 Yeah, so what's the point? I am rolling power tubes: 6080 Chatham, Sylvania, Sylvania Gold, GE, RCA and 6AS7 RCA, Svetlana, Chatham. 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 1980s (!). Most of them sound great - the main differences are in bass punch and detail. If there is any interest I will try to describe the differences.
  
 Have fun!


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> I am sorry if I offended anybody by publishing the picture of the Texas dust bowl face plate on the Elise. I was busy philosophizing over the merit of different power tubes and did not notice the dust on the face plate until I looked at the posted picture.




Not at all, Mordy. Plus, the flash always makes these things look worse than they are.



> Spotless! The day is saved! The finish is really darker than the picture shows - seems like a matte slightly rubberized finish. But what is this?




Looks really good!



> Buried under layers of obsolescence I unearthed the name of the amp and the factory logo - *bet u did not see that before*! Feel bad for the guy who did not want any nameplate on the amp....




First thing I looked for. My name. 



> Yeah, so what's the point? I am rolling power tubes: 6080 Chatham, Sylvania, Sylvania Gold, GE, RCA and 6AS7 RCA, Svetlana, Chatham. 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 1980s (!). Most of them sound great - the main differences are in bass punch and detail. *If there is any interest I will try to describe the differences.*
> 
> Have fun!




I'm certainly very interested. I'm sure others are, as well.


----------



## nephilim

> Originally Posted by *mordy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> Buried under layers of obsolescence I unearthed the name of the amp and the factory logo - bet u did not see that before! Feel bad for the guy who did not want any nameplate on the amp....


 
  
 Hi Mordy,
  
 Well, I knew the logo was on the front plate and felt that this was enough - hence no posh badge on the trafo 
  
 Now to something different... I'm (again) facing some unwanted noise.
  
 While the LD Mk3 had a bad trafo which made noise coming from the amp (not the phones) at 230V the Elise is really quiet. But via the phones I now have two problems:
  
 1) Hissing in one channel at very high volumes. I could track this down to one of the Melz driver tubes. The other one is fine
 2) Constant hum even when volume is at "0". Sounds a bit like 50Hz hum. Going to max volume does not change the hum. But as soon as my hands approach the driver tubes the hum becomes louder. It gets very loud (again at full volume) when I touch the metal base of the Melzs.
  
 Is this normal behavior or shall i contact Lukasz?
  
 I also noticed that one of the power tubes produced some blue tube glow but I guess I should not worry too much about this.
  
 EDIT: just read about 6SN7 hum - apparently a well-known issue. One suggested cure is to just wait until the drivers are burnt in properly (approx. 100h - I am at 15h now). I guess I'll ask Lukasz if he has a suggestion how to get rid of the hum.


----------



## MIKELAP

jazzvinyl said:


> Hello Hypnos1....
> 
> Very nice photos!!!
> 
> ...


 
 If the dot is on the knob just add white paint in the dot and remove excess and youll end up with something like this


----------



## JazzVinyl

Hello gi..
  
 I was just commenting tongue in cheek that adapters and tubes not originally designed for the amp, cause them to look "Frankenstein".
  
 I have all four tubes adapted to others, in my LD MKIV
  
 But I am hoping the original compliment specified in the Elise will satisfy sonically,  so that I don't feel the need to adapt others...
  
 Mordy's amp.....looks great, after the dust off 
  
  
  
 Quote:


gibosi said:


> The 5998s coupled with a Tung-Sol 6F8G is a superb combination to my ears. And while a 6F8G with adapter is not as clean looking as a 6SN7, they can often be had for less money. And so I was wondering if JazzVinyl would find a pair of these acceptable... or not....


----------



## SonicTrance

nephilim said:


> 2) Constant hum even when volume is at "0". Sounds a bit like 50Hz hum. Going to max volume does not change the hum. But as soon as my hands approach the driver tubes the hum becomes louder. It gets very loud (again at full volume) when I touch the metal base of the Melzs.


 
 I have this exact problem when running 6F8G's in my LD MK6. But only with 5998's as power tubes. When I changed to a set of 6AS7G's there's no more hum. I have no idea why because I don't have hum with other driver tubes and 5998's.


----------



## gibosi

Generally, 6F8Gs are often more microphonic than 6S7N. Electrically, they are identical, but in terms of construction, the 6SN7 was designed to be an improved, quieter 6F8G. With regard to the 5998s, they are not quite the same electrically as a 6AS7/6080. Among other differences, the 5998 has a bit higher gain than a 6AS7 and as a result, it tends to be a bit more sensitive to noise as well.
  
 Edit: So I have the same situation. One of my NU 6F8Gs is microphonic. If I tap on the tube with a business card it rings. But with 6AS7s and 6080s, it sounds great. Roll in the 5998, it is too noisy.


----------



## SonicTrance

Yeah, I can't use any of my 6F8G's or 6C8G's with 5998's as powers. At first I thought it was the chinese adapters that was causing it, so I bought nice adapters from Glenn. No change, the hum was still there. Then I rolled in a set of 6AS7G's and everything became quiet. Bit of a shame but at least I can enjoy both my 6F8G's and 5998's now, just not together...


----------



## nephilim

I'm not an expert but I guess in my case the issue is not that the tubes are microphonic but not shield/grounded. When I tap on the tubes there is no change in hum. It's just the proximity of my hand - the closer the louder the hum.


----------



## mordy

Amazing....
  
 Both hypnos 1 and Shaffer stated that the Elsie gets even better with time, and now i can testify to that as well. Shaffer claims some 150 hours of burn in - I have maybe 130 hours at this stage.
  
 The sound became sweeter and warmer, and a certain boominess with some of the 6080 power tubes seems to have gone away. I don't hear the same differences that I heard before so either my brain got burned in with the Elise, or the Elise got burned in. Or both.
  
 Gives me a respite from the tedious job of being a sharpener and allows me the opportunity to be a leveler and just sit back and relax and enjoy the music. I also note that u got to have patience with this beauty because it seems that the Elise needs some 20-30 minutes to come up to full steam.
  
 Was going to go through rolling the 6080 tubes on hand, and in order to make things more organized decided to go in alphabetical order. 6080, 6080WA, 6080WB, 6080WC. Just kidding - I meant starting with the names of the manufacturers: Chatham, GE, Philips/Phillips {Oskari - I can't remember}, RCA, Sylvania.
  
 First to step up to the black podium is a pair of JAN CAHG Chatham 6080WA from September 1960. Bought these from some lady that could not test them or guarantee them - paid $10 for the pair. After i won the bid she sent me an email calling me "brave" for buying them. I didn't tell her that I found it hard to believe that somebody would save junky or bad tubes for over 50 years, although you'll never know.
  





  
 I have this three CD set recorded by Wilson Audio Specialties. Mark P. Wetch plays a concert piano with hardened hammers (we called it "Nail Piano" in Sweden). Can't believe that a set like mine went for $118 on Ebay recently.
  
 Anyhow, as you know Wilson Audio is a very high end speaker manufacturer with speakers costing tens of thousands of $. They also produce audiophile recordings. Way back then they used these piano recordings to test their speakers since the piano spans more octaves than any other instrument (did I get that right?).
  
 So I played a couple of selections with the C3gS and Chatham 6080WC tubes. I AM ABSOLUTELY MESMERIZED - my system never sounded this good before. There is a fleetness, liveliness, directness and immediacy to the music that I have never experienced before. Magic, WOW, call it what u want -  if I close my eyes the guy is sitting right in front of me.
  
 I am stuck at the letter C right now....


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> Hello Hypnos1....
> 
> Very nice photos!!!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Glad to have put your mind at rest JV...just what I like to hear, lol!
  
 I'm afraid those aren't the default tubes however...FAR FROM IT!! - the drivers are my adapted Siemens C3g'S's, and the powers the mighty (and mightily expensive!) GEC CV2523, 6AS7G variant.
  
 The stock tubes do perform very well indeed, but the Elise is capable of far more with better tubes - especially drivers, as the 6N13S powers are actually very good considering the price. But I would recommend that you study mordy's very useful findings on different powers, plus the equally useful info also given by others re the drivers...both here and over at R's tube rolling thread. I don't think you will be "resting on your laurels" for very long...you have been warned!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
  


nephilim said:


> Hi Mordy,
> 
> Well, I knew the logo was on the front plate and felt that this was enough - hence no posh badge on the trafo
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi n.
  
 Sorry to hear you have some dreaded hum...there can be so many causes alas. Some tubes do indeed have to be given plenty of burn-in to ease such problems. Some never do lose it. You will also need to test with as many different combinations of drivers and powers before getting a clearer picture...frustrating, I know!
 I had loads of trouble with my used Melz tubes...all three had to go back.
 The quality of the mains is another possible problem area of course, as is the proximity of any powerful electrical equipment and especially ANYTHING working wirelessly.
  
 But if after all these possible areas have been checked and the hum doesn't ease with time, then you must let Lukasz know of course....I do hope, however, that you manage to soon either find the culprit, or that it mysteriously disappears whence it came...
  


mordy said:


> Amazing....
> 
> Both hypnos 1 and Shaffer stated that the Elsie gets even better with time, and now i can testify to that as well. Shaffer claims some 150 hours of burn in - I have maybe 130 hours at this stage.
> 
> ...


 
  
 First, mordy...WELL DONE! - I'm proud of you. Your baby looks pristine once more...(just keep those cloths handy!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Second...your comparison of all those different power tubes will be very much appreciated by all, I am sure... and many thanks go to you for your efforts.
  
 And last, but not least(!)...YIPPEE - you're discovering the REAL magic... (yes, that's the right word, m!)... this amp is capable of. And there's probably still more to come, lol!! I look forward to the future discoveries from your experimentation...
  
 CHEERS!


----------



## mordy

Hi Nephilim,
  
 Here is all you want to know about the mysterious blue tube glow - if you don't want to read it all, at least look at the gorgeous pictures at the end...
  
 http://www.jacmusic.com/techcorner/ARTICLES/English-neu/blueglow/blueglow.htm
  
 Regarding the Melz tubes (of which i have no experience) there seems to be a fair share of problems with them; apparently Feliks has a rejection rate of 50% of the batches they test to include with their amps.
  
 Try to isolate possible sources of hum - in the past several people reported that the culprit was a cordless phone near the amp.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 Yep, the Elise suddenly blossomed - the magic is there!
  
 On a dusty note, it could be that the two computer fans I have mounted over the Elise on my rack pulled the dust off the shelf from under the Little Dot MKIII which  previously occupied this spot.. The LD sat several years in this spot; the fans pull the air away from the amp rather than blowing on it.
  
 Every day I start up the amp and take a swipe with the dust magnet shammy.....
  
 Can't get over the sound....


----------



## gibosi

Hello Mordy,
  
 I am so glad you finally pulled the trigger on the Elise. While I knew you were very pleased with the LD, I had no doubt that the Elise, an amp designed from the ground up to run 6AS7 powers, would blow your mind. 
  
 Cheers


----------



## gibosi

nephilim said:


> I'm not an expert but I guess in my case the issue is not that the tubes are microphonic but not shield/grounded. When I tap on the tubes there is no change in hum. It's just the proximity of my hand - the closer the louder the hum.


 
  
 My amp is different than yours, so unless I could try your tubes in my amp and you could try mine in yours, it is very hard to know.... Most 6F8Gs work fine in my amp, only the one NU gives me a problem and it is very microphonic.
  
 But it is important to remember that EVERY tube is microphonic to some degree. Even a hollow glass bottle will resonate at certain frequencies. And when you add in the filaments and other internal structures, more things can vibrate and resonate. Even though you don't notice any difference tapping the tubes, the 50/60 hz transformer hum alone can often induce ground hum oscillations inside the tube.
  
 Again, the 6SN7 was designed to be less prone to these problems. There is no difference in grounding between these two tubes. As I understand things, neither is grounded internally. But in the 6SN7, the internal structure was tightened and tweaked to reduce the susceptibility to induced 50/60 hz hum as well as other noise and interference. And this is certainly one of the reasons why the 6F8G was quickly replaced by the 6SN7 in virtually every application.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Hello H1...
  
 Yes, after looking at the photo some more, after I posted, I figured the drivers were the C3gS's...but you must have accomplished some very low profile adapters for them!!
  
 I am in great hopes that the default compliment of Elise tubes (after generous break-in) will satisfy me,  sonically....fingers crossed 
  
 Looking forward to natively driven GAS7G driver tubes...
  
 Cheers!
  
  
  
 Quote:


hypnos1 said:


> I'm afraid those aren't the default tubes however...FAR FROM IT!! - the drivers are my adapted Siemens C3g'S's, and the powers the mighty (and mightily expensive!) GEC CV2523, 6AS7G variant.
> The stock tubes do perform very well indeed, but the Elise is capable of far more with better tubes - especially drivers, as the 6N13S powers are actually very good considering the price. But I would recommend that you study mordy's very useful findings on different powers, plus the equally useful info also given by others re the drivers...both here and over at R's tube rolling thread. I don't think you will be "resting on your laurels" for very long...you have been warned!!
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Shaffer

New cans plugged into the Elise today - MD AKG K7XX. I'm an unapologetic K-series fan. Love the headphones, especially the resolution and the transient response. I'm sure many have either heard of or experienced the bumps on the K-series headband. Most likely, a lot of complaints were seen on the board. Folks hated the bump'd headband. I liked it. 

The new headband has no bumps. It's also isn't as wide or as compliant as the old one. On my XL helmet wearing head, the new headband looks like a rubber band. Doesn't feel particularly great, either. Hoping some wear time will help soften the leather. If not, I may send them to AKG for a new (old) headband. 

Ironically, now I'm complaining about the headband.

How do the cans sound with the Elise? Warm and deep. Not as wide of a soundfield as my K702. I think they need time. K702 needed ~300 hours to open up.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> New cans plugged into the Elise today - MD AKG K7XX. I'm an unapologetic K-series fan. Love the headphones, especially the resolution and the transient response. I'm sure many have either heard of or experienced the bumps on the K-series headband. Most likely, a lot of complaints were seen on the board. Folks hated the bump'd headband. I liked it.
> 
> The new headband has no bumps. It's also isn't as wide or as compliant as the old one. On my XL helmet wearing head, the new headband looks like a rubber band. Doesn't feel particularly great, either. Hoping some wear time will help soften the leather. If not, I may send them to AKG for a new (old) headband.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great news on the K7XX, they seem to play nice with the Elise. As an overseas customer it will probably take MD a week more to get them over here. They will be my first AKGs so I will not miss the bumps. If the headband is you biggest complain, you are probably very pleased with their sound. What do you think of the sound spectrum, are they well balanced n low/mid/highs? (Maybe more so than other AKGs?)
  
 Looking forward to trying these out!
  


mordy said:


> Was going to go through rolling the 6080 tubes on hand, and in order to make things more organized decided to go in alphabetical order. 6080, 6080WA, 6080WB, 6080WC. Just kidding - I meant starting with the names of the manufacturers: Chatham, GE, Philips/Phillips {Oskari - I can't remember}, RCA, Sylvania.


 
  
 Would be very interested to read your impressions of these tubes either here or on the Elise tube rolling thread. (I would echo your findings in the first post, naturally) The reason I wanted to start that thread is because, as some noticed, tubes can sound and perform very differently on the Elise then they do on other amplifiers. Hope it helps at least some deciding on tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Great news on the K7XX, they seem to play nice with the Elise. As an overseas customer it will probably take MD a week more to get them over here. They will be my first AKGs so I will not miss the bumps. If the headband is you biggest complain, you are probably very pleased with their sound. *What do you think of the sound spectrum, are they well balanced n low/mid/highs? (Maybe more so than other AKGs?*)




Mine is a used pair, so I expect them to have some hours on them. Intuitively speaking, not that many. I own K702, K550, and kinda own K612. I say kinda, because they're on a semi-permanent loan to a friend. The K7XX sound closer to K612 than the K702. Perhaps the best balanced set I've heard from AKG. Whereas I felt the K612 lacked resolution and sounded congested, even though I liked its warm-ish tonal balance, the 7XX doesn't. It actually sounds warmer and sweeter than the K612, but with more musical information coming through.

 I feel my K7XX need more burnin for a couple of reasons: the soundfield is much more confined than my 702 and even the K550, and the bass, while powerful and weighty, doesn't extend as low as K702. Not a whole lot of snap to it, either. I can hear it trying to get there, but not quite... yet.

I'll play the cans 24/7 for a couple of weeks in another system and we'll see what happens.

Apparently, the latest K702 headband is as wide as the old one, but no bumps. There may be one in my future, as it's the narrow width on the 7XX that (for a lack of a better word) bothers me the most. Really, though, I can easily live with it as it is. Sometimes I envy people with smaller heads. Buying hats? Finding glasses that fit? Don't even get me started.


----------



## Lorspeaker

Try swapping the foam rings betw the k702 n k7xx


----------



## nephilim

My 7N7 finally passed customs and will be delivered... someday. German post is on strike 
  
 Also waiting for some RCA 6080 and C3g...


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Just kidding - I meant starting with the names of the manufacturers: Chatham, GE, Philips/Phillips {Oskari - I can't remember}, RCA, Sylvania.


 
  
 Time for a refresher? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


oskari said:


>


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Beyerdynamic T1 for $670
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beyerdynamic-T1-Tesla-Audiophile-Stereo-Headphone/281729759861?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item419866fa75


 
  
 Better late reply than never I suppose, mordy....HOW COME you guys can get these GERMAN wonders FAR cheaper than us poor s**s here in the UK?...silly question - since forever we've been ripped off BIG time...and STILL we wimpy Brits just keep putting up with it...Bulldog Brits? HAH!!...more like Poodle Poms!!!
  
 Anyone who doesn't go for these at this price (without said rip-off) will surely regret it, methinks...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> Yep, the Elise suddenly blossomed - the magic is there!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hey, m....every day swipe?...now you've got ME feeling guilty!  Revenge is sweet, n'est-ce pas?...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. (And just as I swear my car sounds sweeter when cleaned and polished, so does(?) my amp lol!!)...
  
 Now your comment "suddenly blossomed" has encouraged me to put out a statement/question that has been in my mind for a long time now, and which I still haven't seen referenced in the many thousands of posts pored over these past years...ie. I am now convinced that something is happening with the tube burn-in process that has me somewhat perplexed - in that after a reasonable period especially, going back to the amp after a long cooling off there is a NOTICEABLE jump in the sound from where the listening session had finished. I know our ears behave differently from one hour to the next, let alone from day to day, and that after a lengthy session especially we become somewhat "desensitised" to just exactly what we are hearing...but the phenomenon I mention has now struck me on too many occasions (at different times of the day) to be easily explained away by normal factors at play.
  
 And so I wonder if you yourself (or ANYONE ELSE for that matter) have noticed this, or heard of it at all...or can come up with a viable explanation? (apart from telling me I'm just imagining it, lol!!).
  
 Cheers,
  
 CJ
 ps....If you're anything like me, you'll NEVER get over the sound!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




​


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


>


 
  
 Hi JV.
  
 Wish I  were that clever to get such "low profile" bases!...a fair bit disappears because the first few units had the sockets recessed lower in the amp, which meant the wider 6080 power tubes wouldn't fit!... So after the initial remedy of providing extender/adapters, they instead raised them to be flush with the case...problem solved...
  
 (Actually, I probably could shave off a few mm, but it's enough of a work-up already!! ...don't tempt me, please..
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...).


----------



## MIKELAP

hypnos1 said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Beyerdynamic T1 for $670
> ...


 
 Its not the tube or amp burnin process its always been the brain burnin process .


----------



## Shaffer

shaffer said:


> Mine is a used pair, so I expect them to have some hours on them. Intuitively speaking, not that many. I own K702, K550, and kinda own K612. I say kinda, because they're on a semi-permanent loan to a friend. The K7XX sound closer to K612 than the K702. Perhaps the best balanced set I've heard from AKG. Whereas I felt the K612 lacked resolution and sounded congested, even though I liked its warm-ish tonal balance, the 7XX doesn't. It actually sounds warmer and sweeter than the K612, but with more musical information coming through.
> 
> I feel my K7XX need more burnin for a couple of reasons: the soundfield is much more confined than my 702 and even the K550, and the bass, while powerful and weighty, doesn't extend as low as K702. Not a whole lot of snap to it, either. I can hear it trying to get there, but not quite... yet.
> [...]




I think the K7XX may be more transparent than my fave K702. The description above was based on the Elise shod with Lucasz's Tung-Sols (a story in itself) and, best I can tell, 50s vintage Nanjing 6AS7G. Late last night, after 6 or so hours of listening, I rolled in RCA 6080. The sound changed dramatically. ATM, I'm running 7N7 with the stock Russian bottles and the sound is very different again. I switched back to K702 a couple of times to check my observations, and their presentation of the differences between the tubes were not as vivid. Sure, one could easily hear a difference, but that difference was not displayed as clearly and distinctly. The K7XX is impressive.


----------



## mordy

Hi hypnos 1,
  
 Just good humored comments on this thread, no revenge... What I like about this forum is the respect people have for each other and newbies, even if they ask the same questions that were answered many times before.
  
 Also the honesty and sincerity of reporting what people hear. Personally, I always try to report what i hear, which sometimes isn't exactly what people want to hear...
  
 Re burning in of equipment and tubes I strongly believe in this. Some tubes change very little, and some change very radically over the first few hours. Or the first many hours - sometimes the tubes stop changing after 20-30 hours; others may take 120 hours.
  
 The Elise seems to need some 150 hours to come up to full steam. This may mean that initial impressions of tubes and tube combinations may change - I am trying to find this out.
  
 Something else: Normally I listen through speakers, using the Elsie as a preamp together with an old Sony solid state 110W 80's amplifier. I don't do much listening through headphones, but recently the thought crossed my mind that some tube combinations are better suited for the headphones than through the amp and speakers, and vice versa.
  
 I too have noticed that suddenly the amp sounds much better. Some of this is lasting, which I hope is the case with Elise. Other times it is temporary - could be the time of the day: late at night there are fewer electric devices running and less electrical interference noise. Or maybe your mood/brain. Point is, if several different people in different countries or different continents notice the same thing, it is not imagined.


----------



## mordy

Hi all,
  
 To get a reference point for evaluating the Elise after extended burn in I put in the stock tubes: Russiun Tung Sol Reissue 6SN7GTB and the Svetlana Winged C 6H13C.  (The red color on top of the tube is an artifact)
  

  
 The sound is very good - sweet, lyrical, but a little soft in the bass and not the utmost detail. The treble and bass do not have the ultimate extension and sizzle and impact. The sound stage could be wider. If I did not experience better sound I would have been very happy with this.
  
 The following combination delivers the best sound so far: Siemens C3gS and Chatham JAN CAHG 6080WA.
  
 The Siemens C3g are specially selected for better measurements, hence the handwritten S on the base. Shown with h1 custom adapters - these tubes have very brittle glass and cannot be "rolled" like other tubes when removing and inserting for fear of breakage. Instead you need a small flat blade screw driver to gently pry them out working your way around the tube base. When inserting, just push gently straight down - no wiggling.
  

  

  
  
  
 The brave Chathams:
  

  
 Man, u got to have patience with the Elise. As I am posting the pictures and writing this, the sound has firmed up. U just need those 20-30 minutes for the Elise to come up to speed. Played a test track over again - yep, better, but still not the same as the C3g-Chatham combination.
  
 Next I am going to try the older and bigger brother of the Chatham 6080WA, the Chatham 6AS7G. Here is a skeletal picture of this tube:
  

  
 This is what happens when you accidentally knock a large tube to the floor after taking a picture of it. Luckily I have two more. (Now I take all the pictures with the tubes on a piece of foam on the floor.)
  
 Now I am going to switch back to my current reference set up (C3g-Chat). With the Little Dot we used to wait until the sound disappeared to switch the tubes. With the Elise the sound goes away much quicker, and I am afraid to pull the tubes until the amp has had at least 5-10 minutes to discharge.
  
 C u later!
  
 PS: Confirmed - with the C3gS-Chat 6080WA combination greater dynamics, clarity, slam and sizzle, and better control of the bass, which also goes lower.


----------



## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Its not the tube or amp burnin process its always been the brain burnin process .


 
  
 Hi M...you may well be right - or should that be burntOUT brain, lol?!!
  
 The left ('logical') side of mine says of course you are right, and that it is simply due to coming back to something afresh.
  
 The right ('creative') side says hold on a minute, given the mysterious - nay, almost metaphysical/magical! - nature of our glass-enclosed creatures, perhaps an extensive research into the science of their functions/behaviour might just be called for...(a Winter project, however!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). But given that so much knowledge about these wondrous things is now lost in the mists of time, I don't hold out much hope alas...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but who knows?!!...
  
 It's heartening that mordy has also noticed hard-to-explain sudden leaps, apart from the obvious cases re time of day etc...so _something _tangible  is going on I feel.
  
 Ah well, so long as they are _improvements - _and not the opposite! - that's all that counts really...


----------



## mordy

Getting fatigued from analyzing how the amp sounds...no background music here, concentrate on the sound. Again. And again.
  
 Anyhow, put in the JAN CAHG Chatham 6AS7G tubes from November 1958. There is less than two years between these tubes and the May 1960 6080WA Chathams.
  
 Esthetically the earlier Coke Bottle tubes look much better; the 6080s are short and squat. The tubes look very similar in construction - the main difference, apart from size, is that the 6AS7 tubes have a bottom getter and the 6080 tubes a top getter.
  
 As can be expected the sound is similar; a great, wide, expansive and coherent sound stage, punchy, detailed and clear presentation with extended lows and highs. But what is the difference between the two tubes?
  
 Hard to tell. Need more time to figure it out. It could be that the 6080s are more muscular, short and squat as they are. In other words, the bass may be a little more punchy and snappy.
  
 Patience, patience. Got to wait for the electrons to warm up and hit the magic train. Or my brain to adjust, Or both.
  
 Hey h1, the magic suddenly popped up!  It took a while this time, much more than 1/2 hour (maybe 1 1/2 hour), but it's THERE. Seems that the 6AS7G runs a little cooler than the 6080WA. The 6AS7G also seem more quiet than  the 6080WA - not that this is a problem. I can only hear slight hum at prohibitive listening levels. BTW, for the speakers I use the 3 o'clock position and for the headphones the 9 o'clock position of the volume control. In addition, the 6AS7 seems a bit brighter than the 6080.
  

  
 This is the conclusion: Almost identical in sound signature to the Chatham 6080WA, a tad softer. These two Chatham power tubes are the reference power tubes for the time being.
  
 PS: Just heard a voice I did not hear before on a recording - a piano player is talking/singing to himself while playing. Maybe too far from the microphone. How can a poor quality mono recording from the late 30's or early 40's impart a sense of space and suddenly sound beautiful?
  
 PPS: Starting to understand the difference better. The 6AS7G tubes are not as punchy and dramatic, but they portray a more detailed soundstage with fantastic instrument separation and the ability to create a (limited) soundstage in mono recordings as well as bringing out more details. Old familiar recordings become more interesting because you can hear more of what's going on.
 Maybe the Elise is still changing - perhaps the above will apply to the 6080 as well, don't know yet. Stay tuned...


----------



## Shaffer

I've found that 6080 make the amp run hotter, as well. I think that the metal-on-metal contact - the chassis and the metal base if the tube - may be a contributing factor.


----------



## nephilim

How hot do your amps get? With the stock 6H13C and Melz drivers and the K712 attached mine gets really warm after a few hours. The trafo casing seems to be the hottest part - not painful but definitely feeling hot - maybe up to 50degC (120 Fahrenheit).
  
 Definitely hotter than the LD Mk3.


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> How hot do your amps get? With the stock 6H13C and Melz drivers and the K712 attached mine gets really warm after a few hours. The trafo casing seems to be the hottest part - not painful but definitely feeling hot - maybe up to 50degC (120 Fahrenheit).
> 
> Definitely hotter than the LD Mk3.




It runs relatively warm. I say relatively, because if one dares to touch any part of, say, a Mesa Baron after it's been on for a few hours, there's a risk of skin damage. Same goes for my old (ss) Krell KSA-250. The thing was an oven. One could put a pan on top of the amp and fry an egg. Literally. Amps biased into class-A run hot. Some, depending on the tubes or the bias of the transistors and their heatsinking, can run somewhat cool. Like the Elise. Others, like any Pass Aleph-series cannot be touched after a time. Sure the transformer get the hottest; that's where the iron lives and it retains heat for quite a while. It's really nothing to worry about, unless one installs new tubes and the amplifier begin running _much _hotter than usual.


----------



## mordy

From my Little Dot days I installed two computer fans above the amp in my equipment rack when running 2.5A tubes with an external PS. One is 3"; the other one 4" (determined by what I found in my bin of salvage parts from old PCs and old PS + which ones made the least noise.) The fans are configured to draw away air from the amp - not blowing on it.
  
 The Elise instruction manual says to leave at least 12" of open space above the amp. Since the equipment rack is closer spaced than that, I left the fans in place and turned them on. The amp runs quite cool, it barely gets warm. Yesterday I measured the temperature on the housing near the tubes at 89 degrees F - room temp 73 F.
  
 Did not check the temp for the 6080 tubes yet. IMHO they run hotter than the 6AS7 that I have, but I think it has to do with the construction and not the metal bases.
  
 Running the amp for many extended hours with the fans on keeps it just barely warm. (I think my solution is cool LOL.)
  
 This picture shows the smaller fan in front and the bigger fan in the rear. They run off 12V wall warts from discarded electronics and are attached to the rack with tie ties. The long metal rod is a probe of a thermometer.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Did not check the temp for the 6080 tubes yet. IMHO they run hotter than the 6AS7 that I have, but I think it has to do with the construction and not the metal bases.


 
  
 A 6080 does run hotter than a 6AS7 or 5998. Electrically, they are the same, but the smaller glass bottle of the 6080 provides less surface area for heat dissipation.


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> The Elise instruction manual says to leave at least 12" of open space above the amp. Since the equipment rack is closer spaced than that...




Mine, as well. There's ~4" between the tops of 6AS7Gs and the next shelf. I'm thinking of moving it to the top shelf of the stand, once the DV336SE arrives, then moving the preamp to the bottom shelf. It's just such an incredible PITA. I'd even have to build new power cords, wait for the materials to arrive - really don't want to do it. 



> Did not check the temp for the 6080 tubes yet. IMHO they run hotter than the 6AS7 that I have, but I think it has to do with the construction and not the metal bases.




Could be. Can't help thinking, though, that all the heat produced by the tube, instead of being dissipated into the atmosphere by the virtue of heat-resistant bases, but being allowed to heat the base to the point of being untouchable - using the chassis as a heatsink - doesn't have anything to do with it. Was that a sentence or what? lol



> Running the amp for many extended hours with the fans on keeps it just barely warm. (I think my solution is cool LOL.)




Sure seems to work well.


----------



## mordy

Why don't you try a fan or two? Not too difficult to set up. If u don't have fans, they can be found for just a few $ on the internet. As a matter of fact, my 6AS7G are so cool that I can touch them without fear of burning myself.


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Why don't you try a fan or two? Not too difficult to set up. If u don't have fans, they can be found for just a few $ on the internet. As a matter of fact, my 6AS7G are so cool that I can touch them without fear of burning myself.


 
  
 Hmmm, have quite a few 120 and 140mm (4.7 and 5.5 inch) quiet PC fans here,I might just rig a 8 to 12 volt power supply and try that!


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Why don't you try a fan or two? Not too difficult to set up. If u don't have fans, they can be found for just a few $ on the internet. As a matter of fact, my 6AS7G are so cool that I can touch them without fear of burning myself.


 

 You wouldnt touch my 5z4 rectifier checked temperature on tube and its a blistering to say the least 350 degrees F compared to a 6c8g that's 104F and power tubes around  212F that's measured on the tube HOT HOT HOT .


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Getting fatigued from analyzing how the amp sounds...no background music here, concentrate on the sound. Again. And again.
> 
> Anyhow, put in the JAN CAHG Chatham 6AS7G tubes from November 1958. There is less than two years between these tubes and the May 1960 6080WA Chathams.
> 
> ...


 
  
 SPOT ON mordy - those are exactly the qualities I have always found with the Chatham "cokes", which is why I have urged people for a long time now to snap up these beauties (or the Tung Sol/ Chatham, so long as they have the COPPER rods!) whenever they get the chance.
  
 To me, they offer an extremely refined, subtle, deceptively understated (in the best possible sense) type of sound, with beautiful clarity and 'air'...especially when driven by...ssshhh...you know who!!
 Wonderful power tubes...end of!...And for me, bettered only by the fabulous GEC/Osram CV2523/A1834. But given their now horrendous prices/rarity, the Chathams offer much better bang for the buck.
  
  
 On another note, I can't really understand this talk of fans for the Elise...mine runs just a medium warm - both the case AND the trafo housing. But mine is on the top shelf, and ambient temperatures don't usually get TOO hot here!


----------



## nephilim

Please explain the copper rods... Apart from Tung-Sol & Chatham are there also RCAs with copper rods out there? Looking at the following offers on ebay there is something red (=copper) at the bottom of the tubes
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-RCA-6AS7G-NOS-NIB-POWER-DOUBLE-TRIODE-BLACK-PLATES-3-MICA-D-GETTER-SAME-DAT-/291503879399
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-6AS7G-Tubes-Matched-Quad-NOS-Testing-/251989937683
  
 whereas those here look different
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Matched-Pair-RCA-JAN-6AS7G-Black-Plate-Tubes-Clear-Top-Bottom-Getter-/131543203818
  
 Are any of these the recommended ones?


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> Please explain the copper rods... Apart from Tung-Sol & Chatham are there also RCAs with copper rods out there? Looking at the following offers on ebay there is something red (=copper) at the bottom of the tubes
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-RCA-6AS7G-NOS-NIB-POWER-DOUBLE-TRIODE-BLACK-PLATES-3-MICA-D-GETTER-SAME-DAT-/291503879399
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi n.
  
 NO!!!... IMHO the RCAs don't come anywhere near the Chatham, Tung Sol/Chatham.
  
 The copper 'rods' are the long grid support posts that run from about the middle to near the top of the tube.
  
 They can be clearly seen - copper colour!! - in mordy's previous post showing 2 tubes lying on their sides...the bottom tube has it in the middle...


----------



## nephilim

Ok, thanks for clarifying


----------



## gibosi

nephilim said:


> Please explain the copper rods... Apart from Tung-Sol & Chatham are there also RCAs with copper rods out there? Looking at the following offers on ebay there is something red (=copper) at the bottom of the tubes


 
  
 This is what you are looking for:
  
 Copper grid posts, no shielding below the lower mica, and two bottom getters. If it doesn't have these three features, it is not a Chatham.
  
 For example, a 1956 Chatham 6AS7G
  
 Notice the copper grid post and no sheet-metal shielding below the lower mica.
  

  
 A close-up of the copper grid post with grid wire wrapped around it.
  

  
 And two rectangular getters in the bottom of the tube.


----------



## nephilim

Many thanks, gibosi!


----------



## mordy

Hi,
  
 Some people, including myself, had good luck in combining different tubes in the Little Dot MKIII/IV amps Two different tubes would produce a pleasing mix sometimes surpassing two identical tubes. Decided that I wanted to try to use a Chatham 6080 and a 6AS7G as power tubes in the Elise.
  
 It was a very strange experience. My speakers project a continuous image between the speakers. The Elise is so precise that the two halves of the sound stage sounded different, like two pieces of a puzzle that did not fit together. Even a mono recording sounded different; each speaker portrayed the sound differently, with a sharp division in the middle - no continuum. One side was a little laid back and more musical (6AS7) and the other side brighter, more forward, harder hitting in your face (6080)..
  
 There was no synergy or melting together of the sound stage. You know those clowns where one half of their garment is one color and the other half another color? Or a car that had a panel repainted with the color not matching? Could not stand it. Never had this experience before.
  
 It could be that this happens because of the precise imaging and excellent instrument separation of the Elise. Both tubes have to have the same characteristics to produce a coherent and continuous sound stage. It could also be that the engineering is such that there is very little cross feed from the tubes.
  
 Switched to the Chatham 6080s, Took a sigh of relief - the sound is right, Sounds very good. Yes, there is more punch in the bass and more sizzle in the treble with great detail. The presentation is brighter and more forward than the 6AS7. However, the 6AS7 is more delicate, laid back, more refined, sweeter, and has a superior sound stage.. Brawn vs elegance, or whatever.....I'll think the vote goes to the 6AS7.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Yeah for the cooler running 6AS7!    Appreciate your time / and careful efforts,  Mordy...
  
 Quote:


mordy said:


> However, the 6AS7 is more delicate, laid back, more refined, sweeter, and has a superior sound stage.. Brawn vs elegance, or whatever.....I'll think the vote goes to the 6AS7.


----------



## mordy

Thanks


----------



## Shaffer

My DV336SE is here! I shod it with a NOS Raytheon 6080 and the stock Chinese driver. Once the amp burns in, the driver tube is gone!

First, and likely only, mod to the amp will be a new volume knob. A big, thick chunk of machined aluminium. In addition to cosmetic enhancement that I feel the amp needs badly, it'll be nicer to handle. Tactile feel is important to me, which the Elise has in spades.


----------



## mordy

Congrats on the DV! Please keep us posted on how it compares to the Elise......


----------



## JazzVinyl

That was pretty quick delivery!!
  
 Can't wait to hear your comparison impressions!
  
  
 Quote:


shaffer said:


> My DV336SE is here! I shod it with a NOS Raytheon 6080 and the stock Chinese driver. Once the amp burns in, the driver tube is gone!
> 
> First, and likely only, mod to the amp will be a new volume knob. A big, thick chunk of machined aluminium. In addition to cosmetic enhancement that I feel the amp needs badly, it'll be nicer to handle. Tactile feel is important to me, which the Elise has in spades.


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> My DV336SE is here! I shod it with a NOS Raytheon 6080 and the stock Chinese driver. Once the amp burns in, the driver tube is gone!
> 
> First, and likely only, mod to the amp will be a new volume knob. A big, thick chunk of machined aluminium. In addition to cosmetic enhancement that I feel the amp needs badly, it'll be nicer to handle. Tactile feel is important to me, which the Elise has in spades.


 
  
 Hi 007...sure is gonna be very interesting to see how it compares...
  
 What next - a Blue Moon lol?! (EDIT..should be Blue HAWAII!!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).


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## Shaffer

First point of comparison - hum.

IME, the Elise has taken every tube I threw at it without so much as a peep.

The DV is not nearly as flexible. Replacing the stock Chinese driver with either a EH or vintage SylvaniaGTA resulted in a rather intense hum. No, not hum. *HUM*. Thankfully, Baldwin (Raytheon) 6SN7s are dead-quite and great sounding tubes. Or tube, as the case may be. 

Then, I put the stock driver tube back in to continue the amp's burnin. Now I need to go and lay down


----------



## mordy

Latest bulletin from 009:
  
 Spent some quality time with the Chatham 6080WA - bold, brawny. lively; punchy bass and sizzling treble with great detail and very good sound stage. If you like the bass and treble to stand out in relief this tube is for you.
  
 In the interest of exploration,  onto the next set of power tubes: The RCA 6AS7/6AS7G coke bottle tubes. I described them previously, but now the Elise is fully broken in so it is time for a more firm conclusion about how they sound.
  





  
 The sound is nice but not exciting. My amp has separate bass and treble tone controls, and in my experience a tube that has a great range in the treble and bass usually makes for a better sounding tube.
  
 These tubes do not exhibit such great latitude when using the tone controls; the sound is not engaging compared to the Chathams, polite, laid back and a little dull. Still nice though.
  
 We'll give them a grade of B.
  
 PS: My Elise secret serial# is 009.


----------



## nephilim

Received a couple of tubes today: Lorenz C3g, RCA 6080, Sylvania 7N7 short and tall. Put in the 6080 and tall 7N7 and immediately noticed the deep & rich hum. Apparently it's the same hum I get with the stock power & Melz drivers but very bass heavy and much louder. Quickly went to my sub-bass recording of the Organ Symphony and jumped to the moment when the loooong pipes are played - while the organ creates this amazing vibration in my head I hear the violins "trembling", i.e. their volume changing at the same frequency of the notes played by the organ. Never noticed this before. So I switched to the Melz and everything sounded like it should - and the hum was very faint again. Next try were the short 7N7, which behaved in the same way as their tall brothers. Does the amp need to be adjusted to the 7N7?
  
 Regarding the hum... Lukasz emphasized that they check each amp carefully and that the Elise does not hum. Well, I guess I need to check different outlets in the house. Could the low impedance of the K712 let the hum through whereas higher impedance cans would stop it?
  
 Oh, those C3g do look nice...


----------



## Shaffer

Does it hum with any other tubes, or just 7N7? How long did you run them for?


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> Received a couple of tubes today: Lorenz C3g, RCA 6080, Sylvania 7N7 short and tall. Put in the 6080 and tall 7N7 and immediately noticed the deep & rich hum. Apparently it's the same hum I get with the stock power & Melz drivers but very bass heavy and much louder. Quickly went to my sub-bass recording of the Organ Symphony and jumped to the moment when the loooong pipes are played - while the organ creates this amazing vibration in my head I hear the violins "trembling", i.e. their volume changing at the same frequency of the notes played by the organ. Never noticed this before. So I switched to the Melz and everything sounded like it should - and the hum was very faint again. Next try were the short 7N7, which behaved in the same way as their tall brothers. Does the amp need to be adjusted to the 7N7?
> 
> Regarding the hum... Lukasz emphasized that they check each amp carefully and that the Elise does not hum. Well, I guess I need to check different outlets in the house. Could the low impedance of the K712 let the hum through whereas higher impedance cans would stop it?
> 
> Oh, those C3g do look nice...


 
  
 Hi n.
  
 I fear the statement "the Elise does not hum" is somewhat wishful thinking in an imperfect world, lol!
  
 As I, and others, have mentioned before, tube amps are very prone to stray "interferences" and can sometimes be rather frustrating animals to free from said gremlins (almost!) completely.
  
 Mine has noticeable hum beyond 12 o'clock volume with no signal present, but disappears when signal cuts in. Having said that, sometimes I get a VERY faint hum which I have to strain to hear in silent passages, but which is totally unnoticeable when music is playing. This hum is slightly louder with the HD 650s compared to the Beyer T1s. And yet there are other times when I cannot hear it at all with the T1s...???
  
 And this is with a very good mains conditioner; unswitched mains socket; upgraded VERY well shielded mains cables (complete with upgraded mains fuses!); high quality interconnects; good quality equipment rack with each piece on separate glass shelf + oak cone feet; no nearby  cordless/mobile 'phones etc. etc.
  
 As the 'hum' is of such a low level, I have given up trying to trace its source or spend a whole pile of money with fancier mains "silencers", cables, separate ground (or even dedicated mains supply purely for the hi-fi) etc. etc.
  
 For me, the benefits of tube HP amplification FAR outweigh the slight 'niggles' it can bring, and which can usually be (almost) rectified in the end...
  
 As for the 7N7s, I myself had no major hum issues with them...but of course the adapters needed can quite easily introduce their own problems...As Shaffer intimates, the tubes (AND adapters!) may well need a fair bit of burn-in before settling down.
  
 It looks like it could well be a fair while before your system starts behaving itself properly...unfortunately. This game demands a good supply of patience...more than I ever realised... (just like my Japanese KOI, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 I do hope, however, that you reach a more settled state fairly soon mon ami  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Cheers,
 CJ
  
 ps. Have you released the Lorenzes from their metal prison?...


----------



## nephilim

My Elise hums with the Melz 6SN7 and both 7N7, no matter if the source is connected or not. With the Melz the hum first becomes audible about 20s after the amp is switched on. It gradually becomes louder and remains constant after about 1min. It does not change when increasing volume. Going to max volume another hum kicks in - apparently one octave below the 1st hum. This second hum changes when approaching the driver tubes with my hand and becomes much louder when touching the metal base of the Melz.
  
 The amp and tubes have about 40-50 hours on the clock. The 7N7 did hum much louder right out of the box. The look used but maybe more burn-in will help. I will give them another try later. However, that shaking treble in bass heavy passages doesn't feel right.
  
 The C3g are sleeping in their boxes - first tests will be done with the shielding but after that I want to see those guys glow )
  
 BTW, it's shocking to see how expensive all those recommended GEC, Bendix, NU and other tube gems are. I guess I will first get a cheap pair of reissued Tung-Sols and check if they are as quiet as advertised.
  
 Back to listening to music instead of hum!


----------



## mordy

Feeling adventurous? Wanna spend around $6 on tubes? Do I have something for you! The mighty 6BL7GT.
  
 Did u ever hear about this tube? Maybe not. It is a tube similar to the 6SN7 but drawing 1.5A. Decided to try it as a power tube in the Elise:
  
  
 Starting with an enticing night view:

  
  
 I have two Sylvania used tubes from the 50's. In order to keep costs down I bought  tubes branded with other names:
  

  

  
 The Philco is from November 1952; the Automatic Radio is from July 1951. A view from the back:
  

  
 A perfect "near pair" - they sound very similar, with similar construction, but the heaters light up much nicer in the Automatic Radio. Here is a night view of the Philco:
  

  
 OK - so far for cosmetics, but how do they sound?
  
 Surprise - very good. Very nice multilayered somewhat laid back sound with very good detail and musicality. In some ways they are similar sounding to the reference Chatham 6AS7G, but they don't have the same slam and heft in the bass.; a more lightweight presentation, but still really very nice. Nice expansive coherent sound stage.
  
 The 6080 and 6AS7 have a multiplication factor of 2; the 6BL7 a multiplication factor of 19. Perhaps this accounts for a certain distortion when I turn up the volume on the Elise. Normally I keep it a 9 o'clock for headphones, and 3 o'clock for speakers. With the 6BL7 tubes I get adequate volume with headphones, but playing very loud, above 10 o'clock, there is distortion.
  
 With speakers I keep the volume at 10 o'clock and crank up the volume control on my ss amp to avoid distortion,
  
 Checked Ebay today - u can easily get these tubes for $6 shipped, and even less if you buy a pair or several tubes.
  
 Verdict: A fine sounding tube but lacking the ultimate impact in the bass, which goes to show that 2.5A is more than 1.5A - there is no substitute for horsepower.
  
 PS: Even though I know better, decided to mix two different tubes again, simply because I only have one of the 6BX7 variety - also a 1,5A tube. In my Little Dot days one dual triode was enough to use as a driver, and then I felt that the 6BX7 was better sounding than the 6BL7. (I found that all these experiences do not necessarily apply to the Elise which is a very different amp.)
  
 Put in the 6BX7, which has a multiplication factor of 10. The Elise immediately protested with a very loud hum. I threw myself at the off switch on the back of the amp and shut it off. OK - I learned my lesson - don't mix different tubes in the Elise.
  
 Have fun!


----------



## Shaffer

This is the "Elise SE" I was talking about earlier in the thread! _[Pic from another discussion.]_


----------



## mordy

is it the Arioso?


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> is it the Arioso?




I think it is, configured as a HP amp.


----------



## mordy

It costs $999. Is it twice as good as the Elise?


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> It costs $999. Is it twice as good as the Elise?




Probably not. Sure is a cool transformer-coupled design.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Feeling adventurous? Wanna spend around $6 on tubes? Do I have something for you! The mighty 6BL7GT.
> 
> Did u ever hear about this tube? Maybe not. It is a tube similar to the 6SN7 but drawing 1.5A. Decided to try it as a power tube in the Elise:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 Certainly looks like a mix of too-dissimilar power tubes is not to be advised, but I must admit I found no real problems mixing DRIVER tubes...
  
 At this point I feel I need to make a *CAUTIONARY* recommendation to those who are, or would-be, avid tube rollers...
  
 All sockets only have a finite life, as far as number of insertions/removals is concerned. Some - by their design - are more forgiving than others in this respect. Those (Russians) in our Elises have been chosen (as per Lukasz) for their soldering/ electrical qualities, and not primarily for greater than average mechanical "use". Regular "rollers" often reduce such strain by using very aptly-named 'socket savers'/'extender adapters'...which I would strongly advise in such circumstances given our particular sockets.
  
 And not only because of the mechanical use factor, but I personally have found that sometimes not all tube's bases/pins are _precisely_ the same...the efficiency of pin/socket contact can therefore vary, and cause possible connection problems, even when such differences are not immediately obvious.
  
 (This is yet another area in which the REALLY savvy tube amp owners let OTHERS do the risky/expensive donkey work in establishing the best choice of tubes and combinations, LOL!!...not so much "fun??" though, nor so "educational"...).
  
 So, folks..."Be careful out there"...but have fun also!


----------



## mordy

Do you have any suggestions what to buy?


----------



## Anathema123

I have a question that isn't related directly to the topic at hand, but since it's related to my being able to use the Elise, I was hoping you could help me anyway.
  
 After I get the Elise, I will most likely need to wait for a bit before my new DAC arrives. At the moment, I'm using the FiiO E7 DAC docked into the FiiO E9 amp - as pictured below:
  

  
 The E7 DAC itself does not have RCA output, but the E9 does have RCA line out sockets. As I understand it, hooking up the Elise to the RCA sockets on the E9 would result in the E9 working as a pre-amp, right?
  
 I'm just wondering, practically speaking, how I should be using the setup. I assume it's fine to leave the E9 plugged into the Elise all the time?
  
 Thanks for bearing with me through the beginner-level questions!
  
  
 On another note - I'm taking some RCA 1945 grey bottle and 1966 Sylvania Chrome dome 6SN7s off Renderman's hands, so I will have some extra tubes to play with once I complete my setup.
  
 It has now been a month since I placed my order, so hopefully I should get a note from Lukasz saying that my Elise is being shipped sometime in the next two weeks.
  
 Exciting!


----------



## Renderman

anathema123 said:


> I have a question that isn't related directly to the topic at hand, but since it's related to my being able to use the Elise, I was hoping you could help me anyway.
> 
> After I get the Elise, I will most likely need to wait for a bit before my new DAC arrives. At the moment, I'm using the FiiO E7 DAC docked into the FiiO E9 amp - as pictured below:
> 
> ...


 
 As the E9 RCA outputs are line level outputs, connecting those directly to the Elise should work just fine. You can leave them plugged in if you like.
  
 Really curious now which DAC you ordered and what you think of the RCA Grey glass and chrome domes! You were lucky to get them, Shaffer almost beat you to it 
  
 Lately i've been using C3g/GECs for detailed/critical listening to good, hi-res recordings. At other times I like using the National Union 6SN7 Black Glass (Sound a lot like the RCA Grey Glass to me) with the stock Winged C 6N13S power tubes. This combination is somewhat warmer, more forgiving and less detailed but still has a lot of spaciousness and presence, good for standard quality recordings.


----------



## Shaffer

To add, Fiio sells a line-out adapter for the E7, or at least they used to.


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
_"At other times I like using the National Union 6SN7 Black Glass (Sound a lot like the RCA Grey Glass to me) with the stock Winged C 6N13S power tubes. This combination is somewhat warmer, more forgiving and less detailed but still has a lot of spaciousness and presence, good for standard quality recordings."_
  
 What you wrote about the NU -Winged C combination I feel could apply to the Tung Sol Reissue 6SN7 and the Winged C stock tubes as well. Did you try the stock configuration?
  
 In short, the C3g-6AS7 (GEC/Chatham) is more analytic, and the TS-C is more musical.
  
 Anybody knows how to merge this thread with the Elise tube rolling thread?


----------



## Anathema123

renderman said:


> Really curious now which DAC you ordered and what you think of the RCA Grey glass and chrome domes!


 
 I'm not getting any sort of fancy made-to-order high-end DAC or anything. I've been doing some research and I'm likely getting a Gungnir. I'd really like to keep it under 1000 euros, and the other DACs in this price range that I've read about all seem to have questionable USB implementation. Quality USB input is quintessential considering all of my listening is done through my PC.
  
 If anyone has any other suggestions for DACs, I'm all ears.
  
  
 re: merging of the thread - another thing that might be nice if we could ask the moderators to rename this thread. The Elise has been known to be the Elise for a long time, there's no need for it to simply be called a prototype. It would help people search for this thread more easily if the name of the amp was in the title as well.


----------



## Shaffer

anathema123 said:


> re: merging of the thread - another thing that might be nice if we could ask the moderators to rename this thread. The Elise has been known to be the Elise for a long time, there's no need for it to simply be called a prototype. It would help people search for this thread more easily if the name of the amp was in the title as well.




+1 

Excellent idea.


----------



## Renderman

anathema123 said:


> re: merging of the thread - another thing that might be nice if we could ask the moderators to rename this thread. The Elise has been known to be the Elise for a long time, there's no need for it to simply be called a prototype. It would help people search for this thread more easily if the name of the amp was in the title as well.


 
  


shaffer said:


> +1
> 
> Excellent idea.


 
  
 +2
  
 (Also not quite sure what 'Merging of the threads' entices)


----------



## Renderman

anathema123 said:


> I'm not getting any sort of fancy made-to-order high-end DAC or anything. I've been doing some research and I'm likely getting a Gungnir. I'd really like to keep it under 1000 euros, and the other DACs in this price range that I've read about all seem to have questionable USB implementation. Quality USB input is quintessential considering all of my listening is done through my PC.
> 
> If anyone has any other suggestions for DACs, I'm all ears.


 
 There is no need for a made to order DAC in my opinion. There are a lot of good DACs out there. Im not really a fan of the Gungnir, for your budget I'd much rather get a Benchmark DAC1 HDR. But then again, I have a rather unique point of view  The Asus Xonar Essence One Mark II Muses Edition has seemed to have gained some fame as well. But who would want a Taiwanese computer maker DAC? 
 http://www.ebay.nl/itm/ASUS-Essence-One-MKII-Muses-Edition-Verstarker-Vorverstarker-/121468004922
  
 Having said that, i'm satisfied with my $500 Yulong audio D200 DAC/HP amplifier. Works great in USB 1.1 as well as 2.0 in Windows 7 and Windows 8.1. I use it with Foobar mostly and have not had any problems so far.
  
 The research is always the most fun part and I hope you will take your time. Maybe there are some stores or events near you where you can try some DACs out? 
  
 Good luck in your journey!


----------



## Anathema123

renderman said:


> Im not really a fan of the Gungnir, for your budget I'd much rather get a Benchmark DAC1 HDR. The Asus Xonar Essence One Mark II Muses Edition has seemed to have gained some fame as well.
> 
> Having said that, i'm satisfied with my $500 Yulong audio D200 DAC/HP amplifier.
> 
> ...


 
  
 No chance to try out any DACs, sadly.
  
 Is there any reason in particular you dislike the Gungnir?
  
 I'll read up in the Yulong and Asus DACs, although a little voice in my head keeps telling me they surely must be worse value for money if you don't use the amp sections at all.
  
 The Benchmark DAC, being over 2000 euro, is definitely out of the question. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Thanks for making some suggestions, I have more reading to do!


----------



## CITIZENLIN

anathema123 said:


> I'm not getting any sort of fancy made-to-order high-end DAC or anything. I've been doing some research and I'm likely getting a Gungnir. I'd really like to keep it under 1000 euros, and the other DACs in this price range that I've read about all seem to have questionable USB implementation. Quality USB input is quintessential considering all of my listening is done through my PC.
> 
> If anyone has any other suggestions for DACs, I'm all ears.


 
 I use Schiit Audio for DAC. Model " Bifrost Uber USB". I also have Musical fidelity DAC. I prefer Bifrost Uber better. Good Luck.
 You can read up some reviews on Amazon or here in Head-fi.
  
 http://www.amazon.com/Bifrost-Uber-Digital-Analog-Convertor/dp/B00DV38SZM/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1436135574&sr=8-9&keywords=schiit


----------



## Shaffer

This seems to be a decent deal on a DAC:

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PTDACITX


----------



## MIKELAP

anathema123 said:


> renderman said:
> 
> 
> > Really curious now which DAC you ordered and what you think of the RCA Grey glass and chrome domes!
> ...


 

 Wyred 4sound dac2 used for around $1000.00 or less new $1500.00 and up no issues at all with usb i to use my PC


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Guys,
  
 I am back and hope everyone is chilling with their amps and DACs, but I am still without Elise (still waiting for it to be cooked in Poland).
  
 I have another DAC question, how about Oppo HA-2 https://www.oppodigital.com/headphone-amplifier-ha-2/headphone-amplifier-HA-2-Features.aspx as a started DAC?
  
 Will keep it very simple, I am getting a nice deal on it actually. The reail is 299$ and I might get it at half price. 
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Renderman

lord raven said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am back and hope everyone is chilling with their amps and DACs, but I am still without Elise (still waiting for it to be cooked in Poland).
> 
> ...


 
 Wow nice, where, how? I was considering the HA-2 for a portable DAC half price would definitely drag me over the edge! Using my Fiio X3II as portable DAC now and it holds up quite well! It really is the swiss army knife of pocket players


----------



## Renderman

anathema123 said:


> Is there any reason in particular you dislike the Gungnir?
> 
> I'll read up in the Yulong and Asus DACs, although a little voice in my head keeps telling me they surely must be worse value for money if you don't use the amp sections at all.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Heard the Gungnir and was not impressed, sounded good but nothing special to me. Just my personal first impression and if you like it, by all means get it. I just think there are better DACs to be had for €1000. The Benchmark DAC1 HDR can be bought for just under 1000 euros now a days actually. The Benchmark DACs are very well regarded in audiophile as well as pro audio circles. Good USB and (stable) drivers (important in pro audio) is what made me suggest it to you.
  
 More reading sounds like a good plan, don't make any hasty decisions


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> _"At other times I like using the National Union 6SN7 Black Glass (Sound a lot like the RCA Grey Glass to me) with the stock Winged C 6N13S power tubes. This combination is somewhat warmer, more forgiving and less detailed but still has a lot of spaciousness and presence, good for standard quality recordings."_
> 
> ...


 
 Sorry for the late reaction Mordy, work has been crazy lately.
  
 You are right, the sound of the NU is somewhat similar to the Tung-Sol Feliks audio sent me with the Elise and in short the C3G/GEC combo is more analytic (dare I say solid state like?) than the NU or TS + Winged C. However, I find the NU/Winged C combo bring more detail and a little more control in the lower regions. These are not night and day differences but I clearly prefer the NU over the TS.
  
 Hope this helps


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Do you have any suggestions what to buy?


 
  
 Hi m...sorry for the late reply - Summer time = too little time for this hobby, alas! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...roll on Winter!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway, re the "savers" I'm afraid I don't have any personal experience of them to give recommendations (wish I had though!)....
  
 However, there are some Chinese ones on ebay...but most are rather expensive I fear. I did see a very reasonably-priced pair ($11.50, free shipping) from gd-parts, which would appear to be OK for average rolling and could certainly ease the load on the amp's sockets - anybody have any dealings with these people?... :  http://www.ebay.com/itm/2PCS-8pin-Bakelite-Testing-Tube-Socket-Saver-FR-6L6-EL34-KT88-KT66-6SN7-6V6-6L6-/320987640868
  
 Or it might just be worth spending more if one is intent on doing quite a lot of rolling...I can confirm that our sockets may become somewhat temperamental as to slight variations in the spec and/or condition of different tube bases/pins...which I am sure must also happen with a good many other makes of tube amp...
  
  
 As for the thread name...yes indeed, it would be good to graduate from the "prototype" status - we are now a fully fledged member of the HP tube amp fraternity, methinks!! I shall see if Currawong is able to alter this thread name to something like : Feliks-Audio Elise...formerly 'a 6SN7/6AS7G prototype'. Sound OK?...if it's possible, that is! Plus see if any kind of "merging" is possible with the rolling thread...


----------



## mordy

Hi h 1,
  
 Did some research on Ebay and found a Chinese seller that was selling a combination 9pin and 8pin octal sockets at a reasonable price. Emailed them if they could put up a post for 4 octal socket savers. They directed me to a listing that I overlooked (maybe because they list different tubes as fitting the socket on different offers):
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/161007973228?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
  
 This is a best offer listing, so I looked on the left of the general listing for these items and scrolled down to Sold Items. This screen tells me how much these items sold for in the past month or two. Found that an auction of four octal socket savers sold for $11.09 with free shipping. Instead of making a shamelessly low offer (in my experience this does not work with Chinese sellers), I simply offered to pay $11.00, which they accepted.
  
 I'll keep u posted on the fit when they arrive. In the past I ordered from this company; reasonable price, not super quality, but usable.
  
 Re the possibility to merge the two Elise threads I know that this is possible because of this Head-Fi thread:
  
Yamaha hph mt220 thread (Merged)  
 This is a headphone thread. As to how to do it I don't know, but it can be done.
  
 Question: Are there other families of power tubes (listed as fitting the socket savers [6L6 EL34 KT88 6550] ) that will work in the Elise? Is the pinout different?


----------



## mordy

Moe tube rolling:
  
 Decided to see if I could meld the sweet lyrical qualities of the Tung Sol Reissue 6SN7 with the hard hitting and brawny Chatham 6080WA power tubes.
  
 Disappointment. NYET - this combination does not work well. It is as if the Chathams overwhelm the TS tubes. The power tubes are too pushy and the bass is too prominent at the expense of the mid range. It is simply not beautiful sounding; something unbalanced in the sound picture. No synergy.
  
 Can't stand the sound - quickly popped in the C3gS tubes.
  
 The beauty returned. With this combination the 6080s accentuate the treble and the bass, but the presentation is delicious. I have the ability to plug the headphones into my ss amp directly and switch the tube preamp in and out with a switch on the back of the amp. The solid state sound is flat and lacks life compared to the full fledged sound of the Elise tube amp. I really don't think that the C3g tubes have a ss sound to them, unless they are compared to a very sophisticated high end ss amp that approaches the sound of a tube amp. (I have read about such amps, but have not heard them.)


----------



## Lord Raven

renderman said:


> Wow nice, where, how? I was considering the HA-2 for a portable DAC half price would definitely drag me over the edge! Using my Fiio X3II as portable DAC now and it holds up quite well! It really is the swiss army knife of pocket players


 
 WOW WOW, hold your horses Renderman, this player is mine haha 
  
 Well well, check this out, Amazon is celebrating their 20th anniversary on 15th July and they said it is going to be a bigger sale than black friday WTH 
  
http://nypost.com/2015/07/06/amazon-promises-christmas-in-july-to-mark-20th-anniversary/
  
 I think I am going to wait for something sweet.
  
Did you mean that HA-2 is the swiss army knife? I am only willing to get the HA-2 cause it can charge your Android phone via USB cable, isn't it better to carry a DAC rather than a battery bank? LOL Besides, it is everything I want from a DAC. I am not sure will it be a clean connection to via the 3.5mm jack to my Elise?


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h 1,
> 
> Did some research on Ebay and found a Chinese seller that was selling a combination 9pin and 8pin octal sockets at a reasonable price. Emailed them if they could put up a post for 4 octal socket savers. They directed me to a listing that I overlooked (maybe because they list different tubes as fitting the socket on different offers):
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again m.
  
 I too saw that combo listing by caryelectronics, but from the look of those pins and gunge everywhere in the photo I'm afraid I was NOT impressed!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...I do hope that when they arrive they are much better than in the photos, lol!...(why on earth didn't they at least just clean them up for showing on their ebay listing?...mind-boggling!!). Still, that's me being picky...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...yes mon ami, please keep us posted on 'em!
  
 Not sure about other straight replacement power tubes...must do some deeper research. (I'm sure SOMEONE out there has all the answers!!...).


----------



## mordy

_"Not sure about other straight replacement power tubes...must do some deeper research. (I'm sure SOMEONE out there has all the answers!!...)."_
  
_Hi Gibosi,_
  
 We know we can count on you to straighten out this topic!


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Did some research on Ebay and found a Chinese seller that was selling a combination 9pin and 8pin octal sockets at a reasonable price. Emailed them if they could put up a post for 4 octal socket savers. They directed me to a listing that I overlooked (maybe because they list different tubes as fitting the socket on different offers):
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/161007973228?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> ...


 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/111279101913
  
 Look to be better quality, but then, more expensive...
  


mordy said:


> Question: Are there other families of power tubes (listed as fitting the socket savers [6L6 EL34 KT88 6550] ) that will work in the Elise? Is the pinout different?


 
  
 These tubes are most commonly found in transformer-coupled amplifiers. I have never seen them used in an OTL amp, so I would guess they are not suitable, perhaps because their output impedance is too high.....


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/111279101913
> 
> Look to be better quality, but then, more expensive...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi gibosi.
  
 Thanks for dropping in...looks like we're stuck with a million (or thereabouts! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) different 6AS7/Gs and 6080s lol!!
  
 Re. the socket savers, your link's ones look identical to the ones I referred to at $11.50 a pair, with free shipping...same maker perhaps?
  
 Cheers,
 CJ


----------



## Lord Raven

Sweet 16 is coming up  Finally got my serial number, shipping in soon as per Lukasz. Wish me luck guys. 

I'm thinking if any one of you guys made a consensus over the best tubes to roll into Elise and call it a day?


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Sweet 16 is coming up  Finally got my serial number, shipping in soon as per Lukasz. Wish me luck guys.




Hey, hey, hey!! Congratulations!



> I'm thinking if any one of you guys made a consensus over the best tubes to roll into Elise and call it a day?




So far, I like the stock tubes - Russian 6AS7G and Tung-Sol, or 7N7 for a more detailed and clear sound - and I also really like RCA 6080 with 7N7. I'm sure there are better tubes out there, like some of the more lucky owners run.


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


> Sweet 16 is coming up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's great news LR....she'll soon be in your eager hands! I wish her safe (and speedy!) journey...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 As for best tubes, it is still only early days to get a wide-ranging concensus I'm afraid...patience, mon ami 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...there should soon be a few more "in the club" with further info on this topic. (If it's any consolation, _I_ can't wait to get more tube feedback either!!).
  
 CHEERS


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> However, there are some Chinese ones on ebay...but most are rather expensive I fear. I did see a very reasonably-priced pair ($11.50, free shipping) from gd-parts, which would appear to be OK for average rolling and could certainly ease the load on the amp's sockets - anybody have any dealings with these people?... :  http://www.ebay.com/itm/2PCS-8pin-Bakelite-Testing-Tube-Socket-Saver-FR-6L6-EL34-KT88-KT66-6SN7-6V6-6L6-/320987640868


 
  
 I have bought solid aluminum feet and knobs from them before and the fit and finish was excellent. Also bought some parts (RCA, Power and Tube Sockets) that were quite well made. Communication (with Clark) was excellent and they sent the order out swiftly.


----------



## Lord Raven

Guys  I found another deal, www.sonicelectronix.com they are giving 25% off on orders over 500 USD I am looking for the DAC, as I recently lost Oppo HA-2 in bidding :/ Dammit!
  
 BTW Promo Code is *OVER500*
  
 Thank you Feliks  I think I will stick to stock tubes for a while  
  


shaffer said:


> Hey, hey, hey!! Congratulations!
> So far, I like the stock tubes - Russian 6AS7G and Tung-Sol, or 7N7 for a more detailed and clear sound - and I also really like RCA 6080 with 7N7. I'm sure there are better tubes out there, like some of the more lucky owners run.


 
  
 Thank you Colin  All eyes are hunting a DAC, otherwise the lady will not like singing with lousy phone/laptop :/
  


hypnos1 said:


> That's great news LR....she'll soon be in your eager hands! I wish her safe (and speedy!) journey...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


> Thank you Colin  All eyes are hunting a DAC, otherwise the lady will not like singing with lousy phone/laptop :/


 
  
 Good strategy, LR...a decent DAC is certainly called for with this lady, lol...(as are really good cans! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## hypnos1

Have messaged administrator Currawong re. changing the thread name and merging Renderman's Tube Rolling Guide...now the wait...


----------



## mordy

More tube rolling;
  
 I have four pairs of RCA 6080 tubes - well, mostly near pairs - all bought as bargain lots and presumed used tubes. I employed a visual system to pair them up based on the shape of the getters and how many layers of mica they have (mostly triple micas).
  
 So the question is (in car speak): Does it matter if your car has round headlights, square headlights, rectangular headlights, or dual headlights? Or in tube speak: Does it matter if your tubes have single or dual getters, round, or rectangular?
  
 Did u know that a 6080 tube can withstand 500G and 2.5G of vibration? With those specs they may be suitable for a Cold War missile, but will they hold up if dropped on the floor? NEH - i am not going to find out...
  
 Anyhow, here is a test of the first RCA near pair: Triple mica with dual rectangular getters from August 1962 and September 1966. One is a plain 6080 and the other a 6080WA. The W stands for ruggedized for military use - the WA, WB and WC as well as the regular 6080 are all the same, but the W versions have different military specifications. The same tube for civilian use just gets the number without a suffix. Supposedly the tubes that measured the best in a lot got the W designation.
  

  
 Initially each tube sounded a little different, but after warming up for 30 minutes they sound the same. Also, at first they sounded thin, but after warm up the sound filled out nicely.
  

  
 Closeup of the dual rectangular headlights, I mean getters; does it make a difference?
  
 These tubes light up nicely. Here is a cozy fireplace imitation:
  

  
  
 Beautiful, eh? OK, but what about the sound?
  
 They sound very good - sweet, mellow, balanced (not in your face as the Chatham 6080s), with excellent timbre and detail. The sound stage is wide, but not as wide as the Chatham 6AS7.The word is PLEASANT, very pleasant.
  
 A quick look at Ebay today shows that u could get a pair for around $15 shipped - may be worth trying.....
  
 A lot cheaper and supposedly better sounding than these tubes listed below that may be the best in missiles but not in audio applications:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-PIECES-NOS-RED-BANK-BENDIX-1964-TYPE-6080WB-WA-421A-ULTIMATE-6080-TUBES-/400947988417?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d5a5cc7c1


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> A lot cheaper and supposedly better sounding than these tubes listed below that may be the best in missiles but not in audio applications:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-PIECES-NOS-RED-BANK-BENDIX-1964-TYPE-6080WB-WA-421A-ULTIMATE-6080-TUBES-/400947988417?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d5a5cc7c1


 
  
 Personally, I like the slotted Bendix 6080WB more than the RCA. In fact, this is my favorite output tube with the C3g. I have two pairs, one pair with three ceramic spacers (to the left in the picture below) and the other pair with two ceramic spacers and one mica spacer (to the right). However, I don't notice any sonic difference between them.
  
  

  
 Edit: And yes, I have GEC 6AS7 and GEC 6080, but I still prefer the Bendix.


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> More tube rolling;
> 
> [...]
> 
> Initially each tube sounded a little different, but after warming up for 30 minutes they sound the same. Also, at first they sounded thin, but after warm up the sound filled out nicely.




Hi Mordy. I really like the RCA 6080 in the Elise, and the DV336SE, as well. I have three matched pairs of early-60s bottles, a pair of 6080WA from '57 and a single WA from '62. Hard to resist buying these things at $14 a pair, or $18 for the WAs. All test as new, but I digress....

FWIW, I've found the non-WA 6080 to have a full-sounding presentation. Big, powerful lower-mids and mid-bass, smooth all around, lots of air, a large soundfield, but somewhat lacking in detail retrieval. OTOH, RCA 6080WA sound a bit more lean with faster transients, much better detail, not as much air and presence, and more restrained lower regions, IME. Now that I think about it, the first thing that struck me about the WAs was their comparative lack of bass weight and slam. 

I scored a NOS pair of Raytheon 6080GA in a trade, along with a pair of NOS Raytheon 6BL7GTA. Hoping to have them by the weekend. Anyone heard these tubes? I have no experience at all with a GA and have never even seen a 6BL7GTA aside from a pic.


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 First I want to state that I highly respect your opinions and knowledge. In regard to the Bendix tubes, I have not heard them. and my impressions are based on reading solely. It seems that some people like them and some not so much.
  
 Here is a link to an article describing the Bendix tubes as specially made for military use and not intended for audio applications. Don't know how authoritative the article is, but it is interesting to read:
  
 http://www.timeelect.com/vacuum-tubes-tc-myths-and-snake-oil-marketing.html


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 From what I read, the tubes with a G or GA suffix are the same and should not make a difference in sound.
  
 On page 109 I posted my impressions on using a pair of 6BL7 tubes as power tubes. Nice sounding, but running out of steam when the volume was turned up. Curious to hear your impressions when they arrive.
  
 Here are impressions of another real pair of RCA 6080 tubes dated May 1960 with a single horse shoe getter. They are labeled Stromberg-Carlson.
  

 Little hard to see, but the getter is in the shape of a horseshoe.

 And here is a night view - lights up nicely

  
 How do these sound with the burned in Elise, using C3g as drivers? I quote a respected source on this thread:
  
 "_a full-sounding presentation. Big, powerful lower-mids and mid-bass, smooth all around, lots of air, a large soundfield_". Shaffer saved me the work to describe them LOL. The only thing I don't agree with is the lack of detail retrieval which I don't notice. Could be that the C3g tubes add the detail.
  
 These tubes sound better than the first RCA pair i reviewed - the 60's 6080WA. All in all very musical and enjoyable.
  
 The RCA tubes are a far throw from the Bendix tubes price wise - under $10 to $200 and above for a pair. Don't think I'll be reviewing a pair of Bendix graphite tubes unless somebody wants to lend me a pair.....
  
 PS: Figured out a way to speed up the warm up time of the amp. My fans are so efficient in cooling that the amp needs 1/2 hour to warm up. So I just wait 10 min to switch on the fans. The other day I shut them off and noticed that the amp got quite warm without them. Wonder if there is a minimum optimal temperature for the amp?


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> First I want to state that I highly respect your opinions and knowledge. In regard to the Bendix tubes, I have not heard them. and my impressions are based on reading solely. It seems that some people like them and some not so much.
> 
> Here is a link to an article describing the Bendix tubes as specially made for military use and not intended for audio applications. Don't know how authoritative the article is, but it is interesting to read:
> 
> http://www.timeelect.com/vacuum-tubes-tc-myths-and-snake-oil-marketing.html


 
  
 It is important to remember that most of the tubes we use were never intended for audio applications. The 6SN7 was developed for use primarily as an RF amplifier and was used extensively in radar equipment during WWII. And the 6AS7/6080 was intended for use as a voltage regulator in DC power supplies. So in the end, neither the Bendix nor the RCA 6080 were developed for use in audio applications.
  
 Sonically, I find the Bendix to be quite similar to the 5998, but quieter. It has very good bass, a bit of warmth to give vocals good body and fullness and very good highs. Further, detail retrieval is also very good, resulting in precise imagery and a wide and deep sound stage. But of course, my ears, my gear and my impressions... YMMV


----------



## mordy

U know the film clip of the roaring lion at the beginning of MGM movies? Here is a picture of the photo shoot:
  





  
 Notice the 1929 Elise predecessor on the table...


----------



## Renderman

Anyone interested in these?:

  
 I'm going to get me a pair but am willing to order some extra is anyone here is interested.


----------



## gibosi

If you don't see the 8-digit Telefunken production code, U followed by 7 numbers as below, it is a rebrand. I am in a hurry at this moment (time to eat! lol), but my impression is the one pictured above is a GE. I see a lot of GE 6080 with the Telefunken brand....


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> If you don't see the 8-digit Telefunken production code, U followed by 7 numbers as below, it is a rebrand. I am in a hurry at this moment (time to eat! lol), but my impression is the one pictured above is a GE.


 
  
 That's what I think as well.


----------



## Renderman

gibosi said:


> If you don't see the 8-digit Telefunken production code, U followed by 7 numbers as below, it is a rebrand. I am in a hurry at this moment (time to eat! lol), but my impression is the one pictured above is a GE. I see a lot of GE 6080 with the Telefunken brand....


 
  


oskari said:


> That's what I think as well.


 
 Thanks for the heads up guys! I'll pass on these. Have found some nice Philips (Mullard made) 6080 and 6SN7GT (made almost next door) instead. Will let you know what they sound like.


----------



## gibosi

renderman said:


> Thanks for the heads up guys! I'll pass on these. Have found some nice Philips (Mullard made) 6080 and 6SN7GT (made almost next door) instead. Will let you know what they sound like.


 
  
 I am very curious to learn where "real" Philips 6SN7GT where manufactured. Eindhoven? Many of the Philips 6SN7 tubes, GTA and GTB, I see on eBay were manufactured on Russian assembly lines. For example, notice the flying saucer getter on these. And I doubt that they were manufactured in the Netherlands.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-X-MATCHED-6SN7GT-GTB-ECC35-6SN7-GT-PHILIPS-NOS-NIB-NEW-TUBES-ROHRE-VALVE-/321803220521


----------



## mordy

More RCA 6080 (no suffix):
  
 Here is a near pair of a RCA September 1956 and a HP/RCA from June 1959. These tubes have a single rectangular getter:
  

  

  

  
 And the obligatory night view:

  
 These sound the same as the Stromberg-Carlson RCAs reviewed above, but a little better in the bass.
  
 Verdict: A four star dinner for 5 bucks - not bad at all. The RCA sounds a little brighter than the HP, but only noticeable when A/Bing the channels.
  
 Have fun!


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Hi Shaffer,
> 
> From what I read, the tubes with a G or GA suffix are the same and should not make a difference in sound.




I'm only ~12 hours into the burnin stage. Very promising sound. I was initially afraid the Raytheons were relabled RCAs, but the tubes don't sound much like RCAs. OTOH, my Raytheon 6BL7GTA were apparently made by GE.



> On page 109 I posted my impressions on using a pair of 6BL7 tubes as power tubes. Nice sounding, but running out of steam when the volume was turned up. Curious to hear your impressions when they arrive.




Also, ~12 hours of burnin so far. Of course I couldn't resist listening to them and really liked what I heard. Aside from its obvious dynamic limitations - definitely a night time tube - this is some of the most refined, quality-wise, sound I've heard from the Elise. Looking forward to hearing them after more hours of play. A good tip, Mordy. [...]


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> More RCA 6080 (no suffix): [...]




The more output tubes that I hear, the more I become convinced that the RCA 6080 is perhaps the best sounding Elise bargain tube.

I bought a $5 (shipped) 7N7 for the Darkvoice, hoping for a used tube, even though its test results pointed to NOS. Wouldn't you know it, its brand spankin' new. Just when I thought I was done burning in 7N7s. Strapping in for a long ride ahead....


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 The question I have is if the Elise can handle 1.5A tubes as _driver tubes. _The 6BL7 might be a good driver tube, but when I asked Lukasz if 1.5A tubes can be used as drivers he seemed to indicate that 1A is more suitable. The 6SN7 draws 0,9A so there is a possibility that there is enough capacity to safely drive 1.5A tubes. But I am afraid to try it until somebody tells me what the rating of the transformer is.....


----------



## Anathema123

shaffer said:


> Hi William
> 
> Hope you're well. Good news! Your Elise unit is finished and going through testing, expected shipping beginning of next week


 
  
 Good news in my mailbox today!


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> The question I have is if the Elise can handle 1.5A tubes as _driver tubes. _The 6BL7 might be a good driver tube, but when I asked Lukasz if 1.5A tubes can be used as drivers he seemed to indicate that 1A is more suitable. The 6SN7 draws 0,9A so there is a possibility that there is enough capacity to safely drive 1.5A tubes. But I am afraid to try it until somebody tells me what the rating of the transformer is.....


 
  
 Actually, the 6SN7 draws only 0.6A, so it makes sense that they would design for a maximum of 1A. However, within this limit for drivers, you could safely run 5687, all the Little Dot III power tubes, such as 6H30PI and 6H30P-DR, and for those with very fat wallets, the ECC32.
  
 A number of folks tried the 6BL7 in their Glenn OTL as a driver, but it appears that the recommended biasing is quite different from the 6SN7 and evidently it didn't sound all that good. So it is likely you are not missing anything.....


----------



## mordy

Thanks Gibosi. Would the same apply to the 6BX7?


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Thanks Gibosi. Would the same apply to the 6BX7?


 
  
 Yeah, the 6BX7 and 6BL7 both draw 1.5A of heater current and are pretty much interchangeable, electrically. However, most seem to think that the 6BL7 sounds better. However, I should say that I do not have either of these tubes and thus I am merely repeating what others have written.
  
 Going back to power tubes, I find the Cetron / Tung-Sol 7236 to be a very nice tube, somewhat similar to the Chatham / Tung-Sol 5998 and Bendix 6080. It has a higher mu/gain than the 6AS7/6080, 4.8 versus 2.0, and according to Tung-Sol's datasheet, it was designed to provide long-life service as a power amplifier in computer service. The 7236 is quite rare, but usually not all that expensive as it typically flies under the radar of most buyers. Sylvania also manufactured the 7236, but I find the bass to be relatively weak....
  
 With an NU 6F8G


----------



## Renderman

gibosi said:


> I am very curious to learn where "real" Philips 6SN7GT where manufactured. Eindhoven? Many of the Philips 6SN7 tubes, GTA and GTB, I see on eBay were manufactured on Russian assembly lines. For example, notice the flying saucer getter on these. And I doubt that they were manufactured in the Netherlands.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-X-MATCHED-6SN7GT-GTB-ECC35-6SN7-GT-PHILIPS-NOS-NIB-NEW-TUBES-ROHRE-VALVE-/321803220521


 
 You are right, these look nothing like the Philips 6SN7GT here! The ones i will be getting is from someone that used to work at the Philips plant in Eindhoven (25KM from here) many years ago. He still has quite a few tube amplifiers from the era and these are some of his spares. Will try to take a photo when I can. From what I understand the Clear/Grey glass are somewhat common but the black glass is very rare.


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 Sounds very exciting to have a link to the old Philips factory. Where I live in New York State I am only a half hour drive from one of the old Tung Sol factories, but unfortunately there is nothing left of any structures.


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> Sounds very exciting to have a link to the old Philips factory. Where I live in New York State I am only a half hour drive from one of the old Tung Sol factories, but unfortunately there is nothing left of any structures.




Where in NY are you? I'm in Rochester.

My family is asleep, the ambient noise level is next to nil, and the wee little power tubes make their way into the Elise. This time of day, or night as the case may be, the tubes show truly impressive dynamics and a rather remarkable overall sense of slam. I use them with HD600, as it's the most sensitive/easy to drive can I have. The AD900x and K550 should be easier to handle, given their low-z and relatively high sensitivity, but these tubes really don't seem to like a low-z HP. 

The bottles sound exciting and involving, not unlike driving a lightweight, low-power roadster - the mechanical bond between the driver and the machine is fully fleshed out, even though one isn't moving all that fast. I'm running my usual 7N7s up front. The overall effect is relatively neutral, tonally, with zero sibilance, extended highs, pretty transparent mids, and the aforementioned dynamic swing that simply has to be experienced. All this is only possible in a _very_ quiet environment.

I've been working with the DV336SE, trying to get handle on the thing. It hates low-z cans, but it does love to hum very loudly with almost every driver tube I have. Thankfully, the 7N7s are completely quiet. I'm not really ready to discuss it, but I will say that the Elise is worth every cent of its premium, comparatively speaking. This isn't to say that the DV doesn't have some redeeming qualities, some of which (very few, actually) better the Elise. 

^^^Did I get everyone's attention with the last sentence?


----------



## Renderman

Hi mordy, here in Eindhoven there used to be a huge Philips presence, huge terrains and buildings even worker housing. Most of the buildings have been repurposed or demolished now. It's rare to find someone who actually worked there _and_ has some actual tube stock. Will let you know if I uncover any interesting tubes  gibosi mentioned to look for ECC40 and E80CC, I will update here if there are any interesting finds


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Gibosi. Would the same apply to the 6BX7?
> ...


 

 I have made amps that use the 6BX7 and 6BL7 as the out put tubes. It uses 6 of them 3 per channel in parallel.
 They sound better then any 6AS7 the amp will also use 2 or4  6AS7s or 2 6336. only made a couple of these.


----------



## SonicTrance

renderman said:


> Hi mordy, here in Eindhoven there used to be a huge Philips presence, huge terrains and buildings even worker housing. Most of the buildings have been repurposed or demolished now. It's rare to find someone who actually worked there _and_ has some actual tube stock. Will let you know if I uncover any interesting tubes  gibosi mentioned to look for ECC40 and E80CC, I will update here if there are any interesting finds


 
 I don't have an Elise but if he has any nice pairs of ECC35's I'd be very interested. I've found them to be one of my favorite driver in my LD MK6. Though I'm pretty sure all those ECC35's branded "Philips made in Holland" were actually made in the UK by Mullard, but not sure. The ones I got are made in the UK.


----------



## Renderman

sonictrance said:


> I don't have an Elise but if he has any nice pairs of ECC35's I'd be very interested. I've found them to be one of my favorite driver in my LD MK6. Though I'm pretty sure all those ECC35's branded "Philips made in Holland" were actually made in the UK by Mullard, but not sure. The ones I got are made in the UK.


 
 Not sure about ECC35 but he at least has some ECC40, if anyone is interested i'm willing to buy an extra pair. Should fit the Elise with a simple adapter.


----------



## Renderman

Other tubes this guy has available are: Philips ECF80, Philips E180F, Philips E83F,  Philips ECC40, RFT Philips EF40, Philips E88CC. Most all of them new, unused in unopened boxes. If anyone here is interested, shoot me a pm.


----------



## gibosi

renderman said:


> Other tubes this guy has available are: Philips ECF80, Philips E180F, Philips E83F,  Philips ECC40, RFT Philips EF40, Philips E88CC. Most all of them new, unused in unopened boxes. If anyone here is interested, shoot me a pm.


 
  
 Off the top of my head, only the ECC40 and E88CC will work in the Elise.


----------



## Renderman

gibosi said:


> Off the top of my head, only the ECC40 and E88CC will work in the Elise.


 
 Yes that's correct gibosi, thanks for making that clear  Maybe some other tube lovers still one some of the other tubes.
  
 I bought an extra pair of ECC40 if anyone is interested.


----------



## gibosi

renderman said:


> I bought an extra pair of ECC40 if anyone is interested.


 
  
 Do you have them now? If so, can you make out the production codes? It is on the bottom around the pins.
  
 For example, LC2 45G: LC = ECC40 and 2 = change code.  4= Endhoven, 5 = year, and G = month, so July, 1955.
  
 The codes on earlier tubes are less intuitive. For example: LCC 5P. Again, LC = ECC40 and C = batch code. 5 = Eindhoven and P = month, so December, 1951.
  
 (It appears that the ECC40 was manufactured on two separate assembly lines in the Eindhoven factory, #4 and #5.) 
  
 http://tubedata.milbert.com/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB-v10.pdf


----------



## nephilim

Gents,
  
 could you please let me know if the following offers are interesting?
  
 http://www.ebay.de/itm/141710347707 - are these "the" Chatham power tubes mentioned here so often?
  
  
 http://www.ebay.de/itm/201370531048 - I thought these might be worth a try - do you agree?


----------



## Lord Raven

You did mine  Please suggest a nice budget pair of headphones, I think I should start hunting from now on. 

And guess what, my serial number is 13 :/ not 16,that was invoice number only.. 



shaffer said:


> Where in NY are you? I'm in Rochester.
> 
> My family is asleep, the ambient noise level is next to nil, and the wee little power tubes make their way into the Elise. This time of day, or night as the case may be, the tubes show truly impressive dynamics and a rather remarkable overall sense of slam. I use them with HD600, as it's the most sensitive/easy to drive can I have. The AD900x and K550 should be easier to handle, given their low-z and relatively high sensitivity, but these tubes really don't seem to like a low-z HP.
> 
> ...


----------



## gibosi

nephilim said:


> Gents,
> 
> could you please let me know if the following offers are interesting?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, these 6520 are Tung-Sol / Chatham 6AS7. However, this is not always the case. I have seen some 6520 that are, in fact, 5998.
  
 For example:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-6520-Premium-5998-VERY-RARE-6AS7-6080-Type-Vacuum-Tube-Original-Box-/141709413247
  
 So those of you hoping to score 5998 might also want to search for 2399 and 6520. As long as the tubes have 5998-type domino plates, they are the real thing.
  
 I don't have the Thompson-CSF 6080 (Yes, there are a few tubes I actually don't have! lol), but for that price, I think they are definitely worth a try. If you decide to get them, please tell us how they sound.


----------



## mordy

More tube rolling:
  
 Decided to try a near pair(?) of GE 6080 tubes to review them and get them out of the way. Nobody extols the GE 6080 tubes - at least I haven't come across any great reviews. Then you have those pesky undecipherable sandblasted dot codes the nobody knows how to interpret. Supposedly there is an article in Tube Collector that explains these dot codes, but try as i might, i cannot find this article on the internet - only the reference to the Oct 2010 issue. Anybody?
  
 The tubes have two micas, compared to the usual three mica plates by other brands that I have. There is a single circular getter. My guess is that the tubes are from the 1960's.
  
 An advantage of used tubes is that they don't require break-in -  instant results after warm-up. Plopped them in (having bad conscience that I do not want to wait for the socket savers to arrive from China).
  
*SURPRISE*:
  
 These GE 6080 tubes sound just as good as the Chatham 6080 tubes that I have, but they have a softer presentation - the bass and the treble is not as chiseled out as the Chats. What is especially striking is the beautiful detail, musicality, and timbre in the mid bass. The bass overall is fat and round and powerful, but not as quick as the Chathams.
  
 So here we have another bargain tube in addition to the 6080 RCAs. (Several are offered on Ebay today for around $8 each). Oh yes - the pictures:
  

 The plates are the same color, but the camera shows them differently
  


 The mysterious dots

  

 Circular getter
  

 Stoking the fires
  





  
 Closeup of bottom heater - just kidding; this is a volcanic eruption somewhere......
  
 Have fun!


----------



## Lord Raven

Dear Mordy 

You're doing a great job. I would like to share that so far these tubes are on my radar to be the best with Elise. You can confirm. I'll add your GE6080 to it if I don't find the Chatham. 

For power tubes:
Chatham 6AS7
For drivers tubes:
Mouse-ear Tung-Sol 6SN7GT, the short-bottle, heavily-chromed Sylvania 6SN7GT/A from the late 1940's and early 1950's, and the tall-bottle CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT, with white lettering, also from the early 1950's.


----------



## Renderman

Hi Lord Raven!
  
 The Chatham 6AS7 are ver nice tubes indeed but I would argue that the GEC 6AS7G are the better tubes. Granted they are usually more expensive but just wanted to clear that up. That having been said, i'm sure the Chathams will please you.
  
 If I may suggest some other options for driver tubes; RCA 6SN7 Grey Glass, National Union Black Glass and the budget friendly 'Foton' 6N8S. Good hunting!
  
 To whom it may concern:
*Tube Sale!*


----------



## mordy

The driver tubes I use are the Siemens C3gS - to me they are the best so far.


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> The driver tubes I use are the Siemens C3gS - to me they are the best so far.


 

  
 I mainly use the Lorenz C3g and would tend to agree. According to hypnos1 the Siemens C3g sound even better than the Lorenz but should not be far off.
  
 Very happy with the C3g/GEC combo, good soundstage, well balanced and very detailed. When I sell some of my tubes I will try out some more exotic options like the ECC40, ECC88 and E80CC just out of curiosity 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Also I like how the Philips 6SN7GT looks and because it is from my second hometown. Will try to find a nice pair!
   




> These GE 6080 tubes sound just as good as the Chatham 6080 tubes that I have, but they have a softer presentation - the bass and the treble is not as chiseled out as the Chats. What is especially striking is the beautiful detail, musicality, and timbre in the mid bass. The bass overall is fat and round and powerful, but not as quick as the Chathams


 
    
 Would you say the RCA 6080 outperform the stock Winged C 6N13S and if so, by how much?


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> The driver tubes I use are the Siemens C3gS - to me they are the best so far.


 
  
  


renderman said:


> I mainly use the Lorenz C3g and would tend to agree. According to hypnos1 the Siemens C3g sound even better than the Lorenz but should not be far off.
> 
> Very happy with the C3g/GEC combo, good soundstage, well balanced and very detailed.


 
  
 Hi guys.
  
 Glad you like the C3g...after lengthy adapter testing sessions I now have a more definitive idea of the slight variations between the Siemens (standard and 'S') and Lorenz tubes - with my setup comprising : media card/ Oppo BDP103's player/Audiolab 8200CD's DAC/Beyer T1s...not forgetting the GEC CV2523 powers - and through _my_ ears of course! (Speaking of which, I WAS trying to write this while listening to some HDTracks sampler music but the sound is so magical I simply cannot concentrate enough to compose, so I've had to turn it off for now...TRAGEDY!!).
  
 Anyway, back to the work in hand...
     Basically, the main differences are (as gibosi has mentioned) that the Lorenz presents with a slightly deeper soundstage/a little less forward, whereas the Siemens is slightly wider and more detailed, giving a more open/airy sound. Coupled with greater treble extension, this can sometimes give (Edit...the Siemens) the impression of being a tad on the 'lighter' side.
 These differences can be offset to a certain degree by pairing with different power tubes, but I personally have found the biggest changes/improvements to come from different wire combinations used in the adapters...(notwithstanding different cans, of course).
     First of all, combining single-crystal copper with the pure silver basically added the Lorenz's extra bass and mids to the Siemens' wonderful treble without detracting in any way at all...on the contrary, extension and detail increased throughout the frequency range. The difference this brought to the Siemens tubes especially fair took me by surprise...air AND body - wonderful!
 Plus to get even more detail was (for me!) an added bonus - as far as I'm concerned, you can never have TOO much detail...so long as it's handled with great care, precision, balance and exquisite timing!
    Then came the tongue-in-cheek experiment adding 24K gold to the above...somewhat controversial in DIY land. Whereas most verdicts are rather negative re its use, when combined as mentioned I personally am still taken aback by the end result. It's as if the gold synergizes all the best attributes of the silver and SCC, and presents them in a beautifully controlled, coherent manner that emphasises the subtleties in tonal range - especially in the voice. This struck me most with a track I have heard MANY, MANY times...Bob Dylan's "'cross the green mountain' final track on the music soundtrack from 'Gods and Generals'...the proverbial shivers went up and down my spine, showing this performance (and recording!) to be truly masterful...even more so than I had already surmised, lol!
    This extra magic was most noticeable (by far) with the Siemens 'S' tube...given my gear, of course!
  
 I know this is mostly academic for most people, but perhaps it shows that unexpected bonuses can be achieved by adding _somewhere_ in the signal line a bit of pure silver wire, single-crystal copper and...funds permitting!..a little bit of gold...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Happy listening!
  
 CJ


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Basically, the main differences are (as gibosi has mentioned) that the Lorenz presents with a slightly deeper soundstage/a little less forward, whereas the Siemens is slightly wider and more detailed, giving a more open/airy sound. Coupled with greater treble extension, this can sometimes give the impression of being a tad on the 'lighter' side.


 
  Now you have me getting curious! Did both the Lorenz and Siemens tubes have the gold wire in their adapter/socket?


----------



## nephilim

Apparently I did something really silly tonight. I wanted to check whether my Elise would still hum if the drivers were removed. Yeah, it was silent but it stayed like this even after putting them back in again. The power tubes seem to be broken. The amp runs fine with different power tubes but with that pair one channel is mute and the other very quiet...


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> Apparently I did something really silly tonight. I wanted to check whether my Elise would still hum if the drivers were removed. Yeah, it was silent but it stayed like this even after putting them back in again. The power tubes seem to be broken. The amp runs fine with different power tubes but with that pair one channel is mute and the other very quiet...




Thanks for the warning. No doubt, I would have done that at some point. 

[blush] On a similar note, driver tubes can be removed and reinserted when the amp is on. Ask me how I know? [/blush]

Ralph Karsten from Atma-Sphere used to demo the reliability of his amps - that were anything, but reliable - by walking up to the amplifier during a demo and pulling one of the power tubes. There were certainly enough of them:


----------



## gibosi

nephilim said:


> Apparently I did something really silly tonight. I wanted to check whether my Elise would still hum if the drivers were removed. Yeah, it was silent but it stayed like this even after putting them back in again. The power tubes seem to be broken. The amp runs fine with different power tubes but with that pair one channel is mute and the other very quiet...


 
  
 Of course, running an amp without a full complement of tubes is never a good idea. Still, this seems strange to me. Removing the drivers would result in no signal on the power tube grid and I would not expect this to bother the power tubes at all. So there must be something else going on. You might want to contact the manufacturer.


----------



## Rossliew

hypnos1 said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> Glad you like the C3g...after lengthy adapter testing sessions I now have a more definitive idea of the slight variations between the Siemens (standard and 'S') and Lorenz tubes - with my setup comprising : media card/ Oppo BDP103's player/Audiolab 8200CD's DAC/Beyer T1s...not forgetting the GEC CV2523 powers - and through _my_ ears of course! (Speaking of which, I WAS trying to write this while listening to some HDTracks sampler music but the sound is so magical I simply cannot concentrate enough to compose, so I've had to turn it off for now...TRAGEDY!!).
> 
> ...




Hmm...do you by any chance have any more of those magical adapters?


----------



## nephilim

Hmm, I am really puzzled - what I did was remove the driver tubes, switch on the amp, wait for 30s (until the hum typically appears), turn volume up & down and finally unplug the headphones for a few seconds. The whole excercise lasted maybe a minute. I was worried about the unplugging bit but as far as I have read so far unplugging the load is OK as long as the power stage uses triodes. The tubes look normal. I will try again tonight and then contact Lukasz.
  
 BTW, the tubes I might have crashed were the Thomson 6080. I had used them with the reissued Tung Sol 6SN7 but was not overly happy. While the Tung-Sols sounded a bit veiled (compared to the Melz drivers) the Thomsons took away the deep bass. Put in the stock 6AS7G and the power in the low frequencies returned. So I would not be too sad if the Thomsons are scrap.


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> Now you have me getting curious! Did both the Lorenz and Siemens tubes have the gold wire in their adapter/socket?


 
  
 Hi R.
  
 Yes, the Lorenz and standard Siemens were both tested in 'gold' adapters...I suspect the Lorenz benefits less due to its lower treble extension and slightly narrower soundstage. With the Siemens, however, it is much easier to 'smooth' out a tad too much occasional treble than it is to ADD it! (Edit...to the Lorenz...).
  
 I must admit my Siemens 'S' tubes benefit also from being wired direct to the tubes' pins, thereby removing the adapter socket element, but I was able to compare them with my others that are not blessed with the extra gold and was able to confirm the difference...
  


rossliew said:


> Hmm...do you by any chance have any more of those magical adapters?


 
  
 Hi R.
  
 I have to make them to order I'm afraid, being just an amateur...and the gold wire itself would add another $20 or so to the cost. And as I mentioned just now, only really worth it with the Siemens tubes. Plus, not wishing (hopefully!) to sound demeaning in any way, I'm not sure how much of the 'magic' would be noticeable in gear not at least matching my own set-up...will have to see whether the HD650s gain much/anything...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Rossliew

hypnos1 said:


> Hi R.
> 
> I have to make them to order I'm afraid, being just an amateur...and the gold wire itself would add another $20 or so to the cost. And as I mentioned just now, only really worth it with the Siemens tubes. Plus, not wishing (hopefully!) to sound demeaning in any way, I'm not sure how much of the 'magic' would be noticeable in gear not at least matching my own set-up...will have to see whether the HD650s gain much/anything...
> 
> ...


 
 Hi H1,
  
 You are most spot on regarding the possibility of this set-up not sounding right in another's system. Am currently still with the LD Mk III and i have ordered some Chinese made adapters for the C3GS but am wondering if one of your special custom ones would even better the sound for my Mk III...and since we are on the subject, would you be up to the task of custom building one for the LD Mk III? I would most gladly pay what it costs (plus a little more for labour of course) to have a pair made for my Mk III


----------



## hypnos1

rossliew said:


> Hi H1,
> 
> You are most spot on regarding the possibility of this set-up not sounding right in another's system. Am currently still with the LD Mk III and i have ordered some Chinese made adapters for the C3GS but am wondering if one of your special custom ones would even better the sound for my Mk III...and since we are on the subject, would you be up to the task of custom building one for the LD Mk III? I would most gladly pay what it costs (plus a little more for labour of course) to have a pair made for my Mk III


 
  
 Hi again R.
  
 I would certainly pitch mine against the Chinese ones ANY day, lol!...but I'm not sure just how much further the Mk III can go - especially if not modified to take the 6AS7G/6080!! At least you would - yes - be getting the maximum possible (for this amp) out of the C3Gs, which do take the LDs to a whole new level...will check on my 'bits and pieces' and PM you...


----------



## Renderman

Woohoo, AKG K7XX just arrived, together with the Philips 6SN7GT Black Glass. Will update when i've got some impressions!


----------



## Lord Raven

renderman said:


> Woohoo, AKG K7XX just arrived, together with the Philips 6SN7GT Black Glass. Will update when i've got some impressions!


 
 Hi Renderman,
  
 And who ever is reading this, I need to know how are these AKG K7XX  Found them for only 199$, if it is a great deal then let me know.

 Thanks!


----------



## Renderman

lord raven said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> And who ever is reading this, I need to know how are these AKG K7XX  Found them for only 199$, if it is a great deal then let me know.
> 
> Thanks!


 
 Hey Raven,
  
 All evidence suggests this is a very good set of headphones, the only place to get them new is Massdrop at 199$ so this is just 'the price'.
  
 Maybe Shaffer would like to comment more on the sound quality as he has had them longer. I only just received them and I am burning them in right now for at least 100 hours or about 4 days. Ask me at the beginning of next week  (but maybe in a pm, not to get the thread too far of track)
  
 Using the Philips 6SN7GT now and so far I like what I'm hearing...


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> And who ever is reading this, I need to know how are these AKG K7XX  Found them for only 199$, if it is a great deal then let me know.
> 
> ...




It's a very good deal. Sound-wise, they're closer to HD650 than a HD650. They sound lush, warm, and after breakin, quite detailed. One can listen to them for hours without fatigue. They don't have as much detail as my Austrian K702, nor do they sound as fast and throw as wide of a soundfield. The K7XX, OTOH, have more depth, much better bass (my K702 have the bass mod, K7XX doesn't need one), and are more forgiving of poor recordings. The K7XX is amp-sensitive. With an average amplifier, they show an upper/mid-bass hump and less dynamic contrast. Coupled with the Elise, the HPs don't have those issues.


----------



## Lord Raven

renderman said:


> Hi Lord Raven!
> 
> The Chatham 6AS7 are ver nice tubes indeed but I would argue that the GEC 6AS7G are the better tubes. Granted they are usually more expensive but just wanted to clear that up. That having been said, i'm sure the Chathams will please you.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Renderman,
  
 I really appreciate your support. Enlighten me first, what is a good tube on the test equipment? Is something around 70 worth buying?

 Also, I need to see some pictures of the tubes I mentioned earlier so that I know what am I looking at. Tubes are like shadows to me, they all look the same. I will keep looking.
  
 I just reviewed your sale thread, best of luck. I could not recognize any tube that I mentioned in my list, and that listing was also yours haha
  
 Thanks again, I need you to comment on this one. Is it good? They're like 72 83 on the clock haha

  
  
 Thanks again! I need to improve my visual memory for the tubes.


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> It's a very good deal. Sound-wise, they're closer to HD650 than a HD650. They sound lush, warm, and after breakin, quite detailed. One can listen to them for hours without fatigue. They don't have as much detail as my Austrian K702, nor do they sound as fast and throw as wide of a soundfield. The K7XX, OTOH, have more depth, much better bass (my K702 have the bass mod, K7XX doesn't need one), and are more forgiving of poor recordings. The K7XX is amp-sensitive. With an average amplifier, they show an upper/mid-bass hump and less dynamic contrast. Coupled with the Elise, the HPs don't have those issues.


 
 Bro, thank you, you're a life saver. I think I can pass on them since they lack details  They're limited edition to their former K702 and should be better than those, isn't it?

 However, if anyone is out there to take benefit of this great deal on mass drop, here is the link, time left is 7 days. I will try my Focal Spirit One's on Elise (expected tomorrow or day after), if they sound okay I will save money for the best HP deal on massdrop haha..

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/akg-k7xx-massdrop-first-edition-headphones?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Community%20-%20Audiophile%20-%20MAU%20%28Active%29&utm_campaign=Audiophile%20A%20Product%20Announcement%202015-07-14&mode=guest_open&referer=XB8YWZ


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Bro, thank you, you're a life saver. I think I can pass on them since they lack details  They're limited edition to their former K702 and should be better than those, isn't it?




They do lack some detail before they're fully burned in. After, due to their more laid back and warm tonal balance, the detail is not as upfront and not as sharp sounding as it is with the earlier models in the K7-series. According to AKG, the K7XX sounds almost the same as their 65th Anniversary version. Reading the thread, however, quite a few K712 owners sold their cans, because they felt K7XX sounded identical. Having never heard K712 or the 65th in my own system, I cannot confirm or disagree with the above.


----------



## Renderman

lord raven said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> I really appreciate your support. Enlighten me first, what is a good tube on the test equipment? Is something around 70 worth buying?
> 
> ...


 
 I have that exact same tube! As a matched pair, just slightly used.
  
 Something around 70? 70 years? 1970? 70mA? 70 ohms? 70% 70 Gigawatts? Please enlighten me this time


----------



## Shaffer

I think the 72 83 refers to the tube's test values, each corresponding to one of the two triodes within. If so, some argue that any variance less than 15% is irrelevant. Others cite 20% (!). Personally, I only buy tubes with a 5% or less variance, so I wouldn't buy this bottle.

FWIW, I bought an identical looking pair of Sylvania GTAs for ~$12 shipped. High test values, but one tube is branded as something other than Sylvania. Same tube, though.

Edit: I think 70 = $70 for the pair. Whoa!


----------



## Lord Raven

renderman said:


> I have that exact same tube! As a matched pair, just slightly used.
> 
> Something around 70? 70 years? 1970? 70mA? 70 ohms? 70% 70 Gigawatts? Please enlighten me this time :wink_face:



What is the test rating on yours? Haha


----------



## Lord Raven

Great advice as usual, I'll pass on these too  This is tube rating on the test equipment by Jackson. 



shaffer said:


> I think the 72 83 refers to the tube's test values, each corresponding to one of the two triodes within. If so, some argue that any variance less than 15% is irrelevant. Others cite 20% (!). Personally, I only buy tubes with a 5% or less variance, so I wouldn't buy this bottle.
> 
> FWIW, I bought an identical looking pair of Sylvania GTAs for ~$12 shipped. High test values, but one tube is branded as something other than Sylvania. Same tube, though.
> 
> Edit: I think 70 = $70 for the pair. Whoa!


----------



## Lord Raven

This is my reference tube rolling hunt post 
  
 Quote:


gibosi said:


> As we all have different ears and different gear there is no one set of tubes that everyone likes. That said, I think it is very easy to find tubes that are better than the stock tubes, or even the upgraded tubes offered with the Elise, for not much money. And these just might be good enough.
> 
> For power tubes, Chatham 6AS7.
> 
> And for drivers, the most overlooked and best for the buck, in my opinion, are the mouse-ear Tung-Sol 6SN7GT, the short-bottle, heavily-chromed Sylvania 6SN7GT/A from the late 1940's and early 1950's, and the tall-bottle CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT, with white lettering, also from the early 1950's.


----------



## Rossliew

hypnos1 said:


> Hi again R.
> 
> I would certainly pitch mine against the Chinese ones ANY day, lol!...but I'm not sure just how much further the Mk III can go - especially if not modified to take the 6AS7G/6080!! At least you would - yes - be getting the maximum possible (for this amp) out of the C3Gs, which do take the LDs to a whole new level...will check on my 'bits and pieces' and PM you...


 

 Yes, i would have loved to do the 6AS7 mod for the power tubes but my lack of DIY skills make me very apprehensive in putting together the appropriate setup...anyways, i await your reply


----------



## hypnos1

rossliew said:


> Yes, i would have loved to do the 6AS7 mod for the power tubes but my lack of DIY skills make me very apprehensive in putting together the appropriate setup...anyways, i await your reply


 
  
 Hi R...still searching for bits from my LD days (different requirements to the Elise, of course!).
  
 But I must just make one last appeal to you  -  LD MKIII (minus 6AS7G) + C3g'S' vs Elise + C3g'S' = NO CONTEST!!...just ask mordy, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...


----------



## hypnos1

Well folks, have finally given the anonymous 'prototype' its well-deserved proper name on the thread title...as you may well have noticed!
  
 Much better...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...are we now legitimate members of the HP amp fraternity? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Now to try and sort out the best way of combining with Renderman's Tube Rolling Guide!!...
  
 CHEERS to you all...


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Well folks, have finally given the anonymous 'prototype' its well-deserved proper name on the thread title...as you may well have noticed!
> 
> Much better...
> 
> ...


 
 Good on you Hypnos1! Much better indeed, the Elise is far from a prototype now.
  
 Maybe a good way to combine our threads would be if the opening post of mine was the second post on this thread?
  
 Just a thought, let me know what you think.


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> Good on you Hypnos1! Much better indeed, the Elise is far from a prototype now.
> 
> Maybe a good way to combine our threads would be if the opening post of mine was the second post on this thread?
> 
> Just a thought, let me know what you think.


 
  
 Thanks R...should have done it ages ago, lol!
  
 Your suggestion sounds great...but haven't the faintest idea how you do that!!...


----------



## Anathema123

Something arrived in the mail today! I wasn't expecting it at all, the last update I got from Lukasz was that the amp was being tested.
  
 Visually Elise #14 looks great, although it wobbles a bit since the feet are slightly uneven. Nothing a piece of paper doesn't fix, though.
  
 Initial impressions with the stock tubes are very good right out of the box. I don't think it will come as a surprise to anyone that it is an improvement over my FiiO E9.

 The most obvious differences to me after a - so far - very short listening session are:
  
 1. The bass appears to be more detailed, I'm picking up nuances in the bass where before it sounded like one tone.
 2. If you can believe it, certain sounds in specific tracks were a little harsh with the E9 (yes, even with HD650s!) - They've been mellowed just a tad. They're still punchy enough to be noticed, but no longer unpleasant.
  
 I'll leave it at this for now, since I'm not good at describing things, and I want to wait for a better DAC before I do some more critical listening for myself.

 Same applies to the tubes I got from Renderman - I don't see the point in trying them out until my setup is complete.


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 You asked: _Would you say the RCA 6080 outperform the stock Winged C 6N13S and if so, by how much?_
  
 This is a tough question, and what makes things harder is that the differences are very small. Anyhow, I did a comparison of the RCA 6080, GE 6080, the stock 6H13C  and the reference Chatham 6AS7G rolled together with the C3gS driver tubes.
  
 And the winner? Hey, not so fast. First the impressions based on decades of hearing experiences mellowed by the typical baby boomer hearing loss (roll off in the higher frequencies say 13000Hz and above.) Luckily I think that most music frequencies reside in a lower range.
  
 4) The 6H13C Winged C Svetlana tubes are light and airy, mellow, balanced, very detailed - more analytical than musical, Great sound stage, a little laid back - not in your face.
      So what's wrong - something bothers me, don't know exactly. Maybe too detailed and not so involving.
      Verdict: A great Russian
  
 3) RCA 6080. Sweet treble and midrange, good detail, bass not super strong. Good sound stage, involving.
     Verdict: A great American
  
 2) GE 6080. Open airy, detailed, very wide sound stage, sweet midrange, great detailed bass, treble a little sharp.
     Verdict: A great American
  
 The above three tubes are very similar and it is a toss up which one I prefer, especially between the two US tubes. What's your mood today?  Maybe *G*et* E*njoyment today. *GE*t it?
  
 1) Chatham 6AS7G. This tube has _EVERYTHING _except GEC written on it. Delicious - 5 Stars (The first three tubes are 4 star tubes).
     The verdict: The winner
  
 The above are my subjective evaluations - YMMV.
  
 PS: The Chatham 6080 packs more punch in the bass and the treble and would slot between 2) and 1).


----------



## mordy

Hi A123,
  
 Congrats on your new amp. In order to realize the full potential of the Elise you will need some 150 hours of burn in - all the rough edges will disappear and it will sound better and better, even with your present set up!


----------



## nephilim

Hi Anathema123,
  
 congrats! Mine wobbles a bit, too (front right corner can be pushed down a millimeter). Your initial impressions match mine. I am sure you will love your Elise more from day to day - at least that's what I do 
  
  
 Currently burning in the Lorenz c3g using Colin's adapters. Following his tutorial (http://www.head-fi.org/t/563884/little-dot-tube-amps-vacuum-tube-rolling-guide/5670#post_10412030) getting off the canisters worked like a charm. However, the glue I used didn't want to work on the combination glass/metal, so I simply snapped in the base into the adapter and then carefully inserted the tube. One is slightly microphonic but I guess I will go out and look for a Siemens pair anyway.
  
 Contacted Lukasz regarding the power tube issue... will keep you updated once an answer comes in.
  
 My new power cord should be here tomorrow - I hope this will cure the hum issue.
  
 The Chatham 6AS7G are on their way - I will be in Elise heaven in no time  Now I need to upgrade the headphone. How does the HD800 pair with the Elise? Oh dear, my wife will kill me.


----------



## Shaffer

Everyone's Elise works with 3Cg and 001's adapters, except for mine. :mad:

It's probably my environment. [sigh]


----------



## CITIZENLIN

anathema123 said:


> Something arrived in the mail today! I wasn't expecting it at all, the last update I got from Lukasz was that the amp was being tested.


 
 Hello A123
  
 Congrat! on your new Elise. Now the real fun begin???? My order is still in production cue. sigh!!! Did you place your order the last week of May? I put my order in middle of JUNE. I hope you enjoy your Elise even more after some "burn in time".


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> [...]
> 
> 4) The 6H13C Winged C Svetlana tubes are light and airy, mellow, balanced, very detailed - more analytical than musical, Great sound stage, a little laid back - not in your face.
> So what's wrong - something bothers me, don't know exactly. Maybe too detailed and not so involving.
> ...




I have the same tubes and our opinions aren't too far apart. I think the differences are mostly due to individual sonic preferences:

1) Chatham 6AS7G
2) RCA 6080 (H1 and H2)
2) Russian 6H13C Winged-C
3) GE 6080; GE 6AS7GA move up a half a point. GE 6080 5-Star are almost a full point higher. If 5-star had the air and space of a RCA 6080, they'd tie for #2


----------



## Shaffer

citizenlin said:


> Hello A123
> 
> Congrat! on your new Elise. Now the real fun begin???? My order is still in production cue. sigh!!! Did you place your order the last week of May? I put my order in middle of JUNE. I hope you enjoy your Elise even more after some "burn in time".




Congratulations to both of you!


----------



## CITIZENLIN

shaffer said:


> Congratulations to both of you!


 
 Hi Shaffer,
  
 Thanks, My order is still couple of weeks away but I am doing tube rolling in my head. (Imaginary tube rolling). Colin is working on C3Gs adapter for me also. Can't wait....


----------



## Rossliew

hypnos1 said:


> Hi R...still searching for bits from my LD days (different requirements to the Elise, of course!).
> 
> But I must just make one last appeal to you  -  LD MKIII (minus 6AS7G) + C3g'S' vs Elise + C3g'S' = NO CONTEST!!...just ask mordy, lol!
> 
> ...


 

 Hahahahaha....but i just can't bear waiting for weeks on end for the Elise to be built...


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 When I started tube rolling I would never have believed that it would be possible to have a consensus on what the best sounding tubes are, especially given the wide variations in equipment and personal preferences.
  
 However, from experience I have learned that it is quite possible to agree on such esoteric matters as aural impressions. Think of it, our lists are almost identical!  I may have different GE tubes than the ones you listened to - doesn't matter. If you read my post I put the Chathams in a separate category, and the next three are very similar and can be grouped together. 4 star/5 star)
  
 To find a $100-$200 tube that bests these is no trick - what I am after is $2 tube that can match the best....
  
 Here is homework - copied list from 6AS7 tube addict forum:
  
  
_*6AS7-family (ST-bottle/"Coke" bottle):*_
_Good "normal priced" tube: RCA Black Plates 6AS7(g)_
_"Best" expensive tube: GEC CV2523 (6AS7G)_
  
_*6080-family (Smaller bottle)*_
_Normal-priced.. buttloads. Sylvania 6080, those RCA 6080 you showed etc..._
_Expensive tubes: "Bendix" 6080WB_
  
_*5998-family (ST-bottle) ("higher gain")*:_
_Chatham Electronics/IBM/Tung Sol (all the same, made by Tung Sol) can be called either 2399 / 5998; Western Electric 421A is also made by Tung Sol, but the WE421A are a higher grade, although this is debated_
  
_*5998A-family (Smaller bottle) ("higher gain")*:_
_5998A and 7236 are said to be pretty much the same. The 7236 is a computer-rated 5998A. A bit faster than the 2339/5998, but worth a try_
  
 Do u think these additional types will work in the Elise? Surprised that the Chatham 6AS7 isn't mentioned...


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> _*6AS7-family (ST-bottle/"Coke" bottle):*_
> _Good "normal priced" tube: RCA Black Plates 6AS7(g)_
> _"Best" expensive tube: GEC CV2523 (6AS7G)_
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, these additional types will all work perfectly fine in an amp designed to run 6AS7. While the 5998 benefits from a slightly different biasing, it works and still sounds very good in a circuit designed for 6AS7. I don't have the 5998A, but I do have Sylvania and Tung-Sol 7236, and again, they work fine in a circuit designed for 6AS7.


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Hi Shaffer,
> 
> When I started tube rolling I would never have believed that it would be possible to have a consensus on what the best sounding tubes are, especially given the wide variations in equipment and personal preferences.
> 
> However, from experience I have learned that it is quite possible to agree on such esoteric matters as aural impressions. Think of it, our lists are almost identical!




Heh, that's true.  



> I may have different GE tubes than the ones you listened to - doesn't matter. If you read my post I put the Chathams in a separate category, and the next three are very similar and can be grouped together. 4 star/5 star)
> 
> To find a $100-$200 tube that bests these is no trick - what I am after is $2 tube that can match the best....
> 
> ...




If you ever see a 7236 at a good price, I'd be very grateful if you'd shoot me a PM.


----------



## nephilim

Regarding my little accident described in #1706 & #1710 I revceived feedback from Lukasz. He didn't go into detail but he believes that the power tubes have been damaged by running without driver tubes and -guess what - advises not to do this


----------



## Lord Raven

nephilim said:


> Regarding my little accident described in #1706 & #1710 I revceived feedback from Lukasz. He didn't go into detail but he believes that the power tubes have been damaged by running without driver tubes and -guess what - advises not to do this




May I ask, what did he say about the him issue that you described earlier?


----------



## nephilim

He explained that the amp has been tested before shipping and did not hum. He believes it's noise/interference picked up in my house. I admit I haven't yet carried the Elise around and checked different sockets but will do so if my upgraded power cord does not solve the issue.
  
 It's a bit ironic, as my LD Mk3 was quiet via phones but had enough trafo hum to be audible in 1.5m distance through the phones. With the Elise it's the other way round - quiet trafo but hum via phones.


----------



## hypnos1

anathema123 said:


> Something arrived in the mail today! I wasn't expecting it at all, the last update I got from Lukasz was that the amp was being tested.
> 
> Visually Elise #14 looks great, although it wobbles a bit since the feet are slightly uneven. Nothing a piece of paper doesn't fix, though.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yet another lucky guy with a surprise delivery, A123!...Congrats, and glad you like it already.
  
 As others have confirmed, a good long burn-in improves things very nicely - as will a good DAC, of course! And if you can eventually manage to find a pair of the Chatham 6AS7Gs you certainly _will_ be in audio heaven lol!!
 HAPPY LISTENING!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 ps. Re the wobble, I can highly recommend getting 3 oak (or similar) 'cone' feet - they answer the problem, but more importantly give better isolation and DO (CAN!) improve the sound...well I personally have found this, and I'm not alone (although I'm sure there are others who would disagree lol!!).


rossliew said:


> Hahahahaha....but i just can't bear waiting for weeks on end for the Elise to be built...


 
  
 I hear you R...perhaps at some time in the future... (the best things in life certainly are worth waiting for - or are you secretly waiting for a Blue Hawaii, you rascal!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


mordy said:


> Hi Shaffer,
> 
> When I started tube rolling I would never have believed that it would be possible to have a consensus on what the best sounding tubes are, especially given the wide variations in equipment and personal preferences.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi m.
  
 Yes indeed, it's nice to see opinions are "coming together" re impressions...and yes, VERY strange indeed there's no mention of the Chatham 'G' - especially as I know it is highly regarded on that forum...(perhaps some don't want its fame spread TOO far lol!...they do seem to be getting much harder to find at a reasonable price these days...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Talking of prices, I'm only too glad I got my GEC CV2523s a while ago now (but still $$$$$$)...magical indeed they are - with my gear, ears etc. etc....if you come across these at $2 a time and don't tell me, I shall initiate the remote self-destruct on your C3g adapters mon ami!!!
  


nephilim said:


> He explained that the amp has been tested before shipping and did not hum. He believes it's noise/interference picked up in my house. I admit I haven't yet carried the Elise around and checked different sockets but will do so if my upgraded power cord does not solve the issue.
> 
> It's a bit ironic, as my LD Mk3 was quiet via phones but had enough trafo hum to be audible in 1.5m distance through the phones. With the Elise it's the other way round - quiet trafo but hum via phones.


 
  
 Hi n.
  
 Lukasz's statement re damage to powers if no drivers present has me somewhat perplexed, but then the intricacies of our living beasts are way beyond me...so the motto is, obviously...we must NOT do it, lol! I'm only sorry you had to find out the hard way!!...but a good lesson for the rest of us...TAKE HEED folks - (just nearly gave myself a heart attack imagining if it had been ME, with the GECs...am still trembling!!).
  
 I hate to say this, but I believe hum-inducing gremlins can reside well beyond your own walls - Heaven help us tube amp owners! (This could well be the case with poor Shaffer and his C3gs...TRAGIC!)... I pray yours lurk (if they are indeed the cause) in areas where they can be neutered/tamed/NUKED!!...GOOD LUCK...


----------



## gibosi

nephilim said:


> He explained that the amp has been tested before shipping and did not hum. He believes it's noise/interference picked up in my house. I admit I haven't yet carried the Elise around and checked different sockets but will do so if my upgraded power cord does not solve the issue.
> 
> It's a bit ironic, as my LD Mk3 was quiet via phones but had enough trafo hum to be audible in 1.5m distance through the phones. With the Elise it's the other way round - quiet trafo but hum via phones.


 
  
 While the amp itself does not hum, it is important to remember that tubes are inherently a bit noisy. Small amounts of buzzing, humming, hissing and even an occasional pop are not uncommon. A tube amp will never be as quiet as solid state.
  
 So the likely culprit is your tubes. Have you burned them in for 20 or more hours? Tubes often quiet down with time. Another thing to check are the pins. Even if they look fine, I would suggest thoroughly cleaning the pins by sanding and/or scraping with a dull knife and perhaps using a chemical solution such as DeoxIT. Another thing to remember, all tubes are microphonic to some degree. With the amp on and no music playing, tap on the amp to check for this using your headphones. And finally, it may just be your environment. Especially if they are somewhat microphonic, your tubes might be picking up ambient noise/interference from nearby phones, motors, transformers or what have you.
  
 In the end, you may find that the noise is due to a combination of all or some of these factors. And again, you may just have to accept that tube amps are often a bit noisy and it is just part of their "charm". lol Good luck!


----------



## Anathema123

citizenlin said:


> Hello A123
> 
> Congrat! on your new Elise. Now the real fun begin???? My order is still in production cue. sigh!!! Did you place your order the last week of May? I put my order in middle of JUNE. I hope you enjoy your Elise even more after some "burn in time".


 
  
 I ordered on the 8th of June. Yours shouldn't be too long, I'd imagine. The time to get excited is now!


hypnos1 said:


> And if you can eventually manage to find a pair of the Chatham 6AS7Gs you certainly _will_ be in audio heaven lol!!
> 
> ps. Re the wobble, I can highly recommend getting 3 oak (or similar) 'cone' feet


 
  
 I'll definitely look into finetuning my setup with some cones (if nothing else it will be visually more appealing than a piece of paper tarnishing the looks of the Elise).
  
 I had already planned to look for some replacement power tubes after I get a new DAC. While I've read nothing but good things here about both the GEC and Chatham tubes, I'm just a tad worried about the price.
  
 I know the GECs are several hundred pounds. Do the Chathams break the bank as well? I haven't been able to find any listings active at the moment to check on the price.
  
  
*RE: The inevitable noise floor of tubes.:*
  
 I'm not sure if it's my hearing or what, but on tracks that have a 'black' background, I don't find that the Elise is introducing any noise. It sounds completely silent to me.
  
*RE: Bass*
  
 Interestingly, the bass is making me a little uncomfortable. Punchy bass notes have a lot more oomph to them than they did with my entry-level SS FiiO amp. While the bass is nicely controlled (i.e. not 'soft' and bleeding into the other sounds), the level of punch is something my ears still need to adjust to. Not an issue for the vast majority of music I listen to, but some downtempo albums would be fatiguing to listen to at the moment.
  
  
 PS. I might well be rambling. It has been a busy week at work. I was talking to a colleague after work and neither of us could think of the word "wheel". Yep.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> While the amp itself does not hum, it is important to remember that tubes are inherently a bit noisy. Small amounts of buzzing, humming, hissing and even an occasional pop are not uncommon. A tube amp will never be as quiet as solid state.
> 
> So the likely culprit is your tubes. Have you burned them in for 20 or more hours? Tubes often quiet down with time. Another thing to check are the pins. Even if they look fine, I would suggest thoroughly cleaning the pins by sanding and/or scraping with a dull knife and perhaps using a chemical solution such as DeoxIT. Another thing to remember, all tubes are microphonic to some degree. With the amp on and no music playing, tap on the amp to check for this using your headphones. And finally, it may just be your environment. Especially if they are somewhat microphonic, your tubes might be picking up ambient noise/interference from nearby phones, motors, transformers or what have you.
> 
> In the end, you may find that the noise is due to a combination of all or some of these factors. And again, you may just have to accept that tube amps are often a bit noisy and it is just part of their "charm". lol Good luck!


 
  
 Yes indeed, g...there certainly is the odd serpent or 3 in OUR paradise, lol!
  
 And when different combinations of drivers/powers can be problematic in one amp and not another, things can get _real_ tricky/frustrating, no?!  Not to mention headphone pairing....oh, the joys...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  


anathema123 said:


> I ordered on the 8th of June. Yours shouldn't be too long, I'd imagine. The time to get excited is now!
> 
> I'll definitely look into finetuning my setup with some cones (if nothing else it will be visually more appealing than a piece of paper tarnishing the looks of the Elise).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, A123, looks like you are blessed not to have any gremlins spoiling YOUR party...lucky you!!
  
 Bass is certainly an area which should settle down with extended burn-in time...and can be further tweaked by different tube combos, of course. Your comment re 'adjusting' is a very apt one - again, time is the key...
  
 Edit...ps. The Chathams (when they DO surface!) shouldn't be anywhere near the now heart-stopping price of the GEC/Osrams (CV2523/A1834). And don't forget the Tung Sol/Chatham 6AS7G- with the COPPER rods/posts...


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> The Chatham 6AS7G are on their way - I will be in Elise heaven in no time  Now I need to upgrade the headphone. How does the HD800 pair with the Elise? Oh dear, my wife will kill me.


 
  
 WELL DONE with the Chathams...getting harder to find now....
  
 As for the HD800s, I myself had just a brief listen at our Cambridge meet and they sounded great. But am not sure if they warrant the usual big price difference over the Beyer T1s - especially if the T1s can be found at or near the price mordy recently linked to (around $670!).


----------



## Renderman

anathema123 said:


> *RE: The inevitable noise floor of tubes.:*
> 
> I'm not sure if it's my hearing or what, but on tracks that have a 'black' background, I don't find that the Elise is introducing any noise. It sounds completely silent to me.
> 
> ...


 
 Interesting observations, reminds us again on which headphones you are using?
  
 PS. Did you end up re-inventing the wheel?


----------



## hypnos1

Anathema123 said:
			
		

> I had already planned to look for some replacement power tubes after I get a new DAC. While I've read nothing but good things here about both the GEC and Chatham tubes, I'm just a tad worried about the price.
> 
> I know the GECs are several hundred pounds. Do the Chathams break the bank as well? I haven't been able to find any listings active at the moment to check on the price.


 
 Hi again...just checked with the guys at vacuumtubes.net (they have them listed - but OLD listing obviously! - at $20!!!), but none in stock I'm afraid..."very scarce"...
  
 They did, however, suggest emailing them (sales@vacuumtubes.net) and ask to be put on a list for any that MIGHT just appear...might be worth a try...GOOD LUCK!


----------



## SonicTrance

You can also look for Chatham 6520's. They're the same tube as the 6AS7G's. There's also 6520's with 5998 style domino plates.


----------



## gibosi

And this is an interesting auction:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/SET-OF-16-PIECES-6520-5998-CHATHAM-POWER-TRIODES-VINTAGE-USA-TUBES-6AS7-421A-/400959053581
  
 As these tubes do not have 5998-style domino plates, there is no way these are real 5998s. Buyer beware.


----------



## Lord Raven

Glad to announce that today I received my Elise  What a horrible and great day of my life. I told Lukasz to put my phone number on the package and he DID NOT. Secondly, I asked him for a favor to put it as a gift and mention some lower price than actual to avoid the customs hands on my amplifier, he DID NOT. Then I had to face the ultimate music. The local post did not CALL me, they don't if there is not mobile number. The customs was in a different city, 100Kms away. I knew I had to drive over there and say hi, since they held my package according to the tracking website. I received the package and they opened it, threw it on the table like it was piece of bread. Kept asking me what are these bulbs, I told them for light. And then had to explain it all that this connects with TV and mobile. Anyhow, I got the package, they did not want any customs money, but during the whole thing I almost lost a tube. One package of tube was badly folded.
  
 First impression is, why do I need tube rolling? haha 
  
 Thank you for bearing with me, I have been listening to it for last 5 to 6 hours. Thank God, it happened. 
  
 I am grateful for everybody who helped me select Elise as my first ever vacuum tube amplifier. Specially, Renderman, H1, Shaffer and Lors. Thank you guys, now I gotta go back to listening! 

 PS Elise 0013


----------



## mordy

Been looking at 6520, 7236, 2399, 5998 tubes. The prices are very high in general. Do these tubes have any advantage over the Chatham 6AS7 tubes?


----------



## Lorspeaker

"Kept asking me what are these bublbs, I told them for light...."

If the customs had asked u to fire them up, they would have tot u are nuts...
To buy such low efficiency lightbulbs


----------



## Lord Raven

lorspeaker said:


> "Kept asking me what are these bublbs, I told them for light...."
> 
> If the customs had asked u to fire them up, they would have tot u are nuts...
> To buy such low efficiency lightbulbs


 
 Bro, I was so pissed at him for throwing my amps on the floor. I almost yelled at an officer and told the workers to piss off when they wanted to help me pack it back. Elise had all the filthy hands and finger prints on it, I gave it an alcohol swab bath at first then switched it on LOL
  
 Haha I felt the same way when I powered it up after coming back home. Teaser photo is coming up next!


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> "Kept asking me what are these bublbs, I told them for light...."
> 
> If the customs had asked u to fire them up, they would have tot u are nuts...
> *To buy such low efficiency lightbulbs *




[OT] There's a gent on my home forum with a pair of TOTL Lamm monoblocks. Four chassis, ~$130,000. He calculated its light output to sit around 130w (!). [/OT]


----------



## Lord Raven

I loved the warm smell of tubes heating up and taking me to Heaven!!!


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


> Bro, I was so pissed at him for throwing my amps on the floor. I almost yelled at an officer and told the workers to piss off when they wanted to help me pack it back. Elise had all the filthy hands and finger prints on it, I gave it an alcohol swab bath at first then switched it on LOL
> 
> Haha I felt the same way when I powered it up after coming back home. Teaser photo is coming up next!


 
 Wow, LR...what a nightmarish intro to our club, lol!...but am SO glad it was all worth it in the end...ENJOY!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Edit - ps... Most established firms will not understate the value on shipped items these days - the consequences can be unpleasant if caught out by some zealous Customs Officers!...


lord raven said:


> I loved the warm smell of tubes heating up and taking me to Heaven!!!


 
  
 Ooohhh...NICE!!...


----------



## SonicTrance

mordy said:


> Been looking at 6520, 7236, 2399, 5998 tubes. The prices are very high in general. Do these tubes have any advantage over the Chatham 6AS7 tubes?


 
 The 2399 and 5998 are, as far as I know, the same tube. IMO, the 5998 are a big step above the Chatham 6AS7G. It has more punch, bigger sound stage and are very very detailed and clear. I would compare it to the GEC 6AS7G in terms of sound, but the GEC's are much warmer sounding IMO. 
  
 The Chatham 6520, with 6AS7G style plates, both look and sound exactly like the Chatham 6AS7G. I have both and the only difference I can find is the writing on the tube base. I have seen 6520's with 6AS7G plates and top mounted getter but never tried those. Not sure about the 6520's with the 5998 style domino plates though, never tried those either.


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> And this is an interesting auction:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/SET-OF-16-PIECES-6520-5998-CHATHAM-POWER-TRIODES-VINTAGE-USA-TUBES-6AS7-421A-/400959053581
> 
> As these tubes do not have 5998-style domino plates, there is no way these are real 5998s. Buyer beware.


 
 Yes, I've seen that exact auction a while ago, that time at an even higher price. I posted about it in the 6AS7 roller thread and I remember Skylab suggested that it COULD be late production 5998's with 6AS7G plates. It sure looks like re-branded 6AS7G's though. 
  
 Edit: Correction, just looked up the old auction and the price was $1699. The only thing that's different about this "new" auction is that he now calls the tubes 6520/5998 instead of just 5998.
  
 Here's the old one:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/SET-OF-16-PIECES-5998-CHATHAM-POWER-TRIODES-AWESOME-VINTAGE-USA-TUBES-6AS7-421A-/271855146869?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4bd45775&rmvSB=true&nma=true&si=zq5wpO8wsj2StIWjcmDepUD80A8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## Shaffer

Do you guys remember when Top Gear had segments like Britain's fastest religion? 

Similarly, I've been playing Communism's fastest mail, or the ideology-restricted World Cup of Tube Delivery. The contestants are China, Russia, and Bulgaria:

China (a 7N7 adapter) arrived a week before Bulgaria (Svetlana winged-C 6AS7G). The latter came today. Russia is nowhere to be seen ( a pair of Svetlana 6AS7G that I scored for $12.51 shipped). The former two tubes are for the DC336SE and they're new, so the burnin process starts again. 

Maybe I'll try former Yugoslavia next. 

The big surprise here is China taking first place. I was betting on Bulgaria.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

lord raven said:


> I loved the warm smell of tubes heating up and taking me to Heaven!!!


 
 Ok now don't be licking those tubes while it's on............


----------



## agnostic1er

Hi guys,
  
 Just received a mail from Lukasz 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 "Good news, your Elise has just been finished and is being tested. Should everything be ok we will ship early next week (Monday/Tuesday).I tried a few tubes and decided to give you a pair of nice Sylvanias, i do hope you'll like it!"
  
Hope the heat wave we suffer from since 3 weeks here in France will stop in the next days, not a weather to listen to my HD800/Elise combo


----------



## Lord Raven

Many congratulations  I wish I had the HD800 or better cause this amplifeir deserves it!
  
 Quote:


agnostic1er said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just received a mail from Lukasz
> 
> ...


----------



## Renderman

agnostic1er said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just received a mail from Lukasz
> 
> ...


 
 Great news agnostic1er! Any specifics on the Sylvanias?
 Try listening to the Elise HD800/Elise in a comfy lawn chair in the sun! I've done quite a bit of that and it can be very relaxing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  
 I've been tube rolling a lot the last few months as you might imagine, i've tried almost any tube mentioned here (paid more for tubes than the price of the Elise + T1 combined) but, i've refrained from commenting on the different tube combinations hoping to narrow it down to a few options that have my definite preference. Here's where this post comes in, I think i've come to a conclusion.
  
 In this weird and wonderful tube rolling experience, there were only a few that were not that good but, more than a few runners up and a few that are definitely winners!
  
 I listened extensively using the C3g tubes in Hypnos1s adapters. These are surely the most neutral, analytical, precise and detailed tubes I've ever heard. This might be the adapters, the C3gs synergy with the Elise or a magical combination of those factors. As good as the C3gs are, sometimes they can sound a bit cold and clinical (just a tad). This is where the GEC A1834 6AS7G comes in. This tube all the detail, precision as well as the soundstage are perfectly conveyed by the GECs and than they add that extra warmth the I feel the C3Gs need. This is a truly magical combination and my end-game setup.
  
 If you want lots of detail with a good sense of staging and warmth, my advice is don't roll tubes and get the C3g/GEC combo! Yes, The GECs can be expensive (GEC CV2523 or Osram might be cheaper options) but this saves a lot of time and money looking for tubes and I think will be well worth the price. They certainly are worth every bit of time and money they have cost me.
  
 I understand the Siemens C3gS are the best sounding C3Gs and i'm still looking for a nice pair of those so those would have to be my ultimate recommendation while the Lorenz C3g i'm using now already sound very good to me.
  
 You can argue of course if these are the best tubes, maybe they are not. All i'm saying is that with my Sources/Elise/Headphones/preferences this is the best i've heard so far and it sounds *phenomenal*.
  
 Not wanting to make this post even longer, i'll post some of my runners up in a later post if anyone is interested.
  
 Since I started my journey into a better personal audio experience using tubes at the beginning of this year I never thought this old technology using the interesting looking glass tubes could deliver such performance or should I say, emotion?
  

 Just a visual representation of the winning combination for those of us that are more visually inclined


----------



## hypnos1

agnostic1er said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just received a mail from Lukasz
> 
> ...


 
  
 Good news indeed, a1er...start the countdown!... (the Sylvania element sounds interesting....).
  


renderman said:


> Great news agnostic1er! Any specifics on the Sylvanias?
> Try listening to the Elise HD800/Elise in a comfy lawn chair in the sun! I've done quite a bit of that and it can be very relaxing
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice post R...but OF COURSE you must post your other findings, LOL!!
  
 So now your system is almost a dead match for mine - but how dare you have the curved-bottom base GECs as opposed to my straights?...LUCKY YOU!!
  
 Your point re the C3g's 'clinical' presentation (especially the Siemens) is a valid one -  if not warmed up a bit by the power tubes and/or headphones. A certain amount of this aspect also depends on previous experience/preference of sound signature...I must admit when I first heard these tubes in my LD MKIV SE (a long while ago now!) I was a little unsure of this quality, but once my ears/brain adjusted to it I was hooked - the resultant clarity, air, detail and holographic soundstage were (are!) well worth it...to me any way (and also to many others subsequently!...).
  
 Further readjustment was especially needed when I changed from the HD650s to the Beyer T1s (particularly as the T1's are not too happy with over-bright recordings, coupled with the Siemens 'S' tube's (wonderfully) extended treble). But as you (and MisterX - re the GEC's warmth that is) say, the warmth of the GEC 6AS7G variants makes these the perfect partners for the C3g...truly wonderful. It is a tragedy that they are SO hard to find (the GECs that is), and command very high prices...but well worth continued/patient searching for...
  
 The Siemens C3g'S' is also much harder to find these days...but jacmusic have them for 57 Euros (48 Euros outside the EU) each, with the standards at 36 Euros (30 Euros).
 Interestingly (and surprisingly!), they list the Lorenz at 116 Euros (98 Euros) and 90 Euros (75 Euros) respectively!!, which makes the gold-pin 'standards' of ebayer omesa-electronics at 19 Euros, plus 9 Euros shipping each an absolute steal!! : here's a link for jacmusic's price list...http://www.jacmusic.com/html/order/jacmusic-pricelist.pdf
  
 By the way folks...in R's photo of the C3gs, the one on the left is the Lorenz...that on the right is the Siemens 'S' - hope you don't mind me pointing it out, M!...
  
 Continued audio heaven, lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 CJ


----------



## gibosi

sonictrance said:


> The Chatham 6520, with 6AS7G style plates, both look and sound exactly like the Chatham 6AS7G. I have both and the only difference I can find is the writing on the tube base. I have seen 6520's with 6AS7G plates and top mounted getter but never tried those. Not sure about the 6520's with the 5998 style domino plates though, never tried those either.


 
  
 For reasons we do not understand, the 6520 label was applied to both 6AS7 and 5998. Typically, the 4-digit number designation (6520) is the premium industrial version of the standard tube (6AS7). For example, 5654 and 6AK5. So the 6520 should be nothing more than the premium version of the 6AS7. Why this label was sometimes applied to 5998 is unknown, but perhaps in some industrial applications, the 5998 and 6520 were considered interchangeable.
  
 I have the tube below, 5998 plates, steel grid posts and rectangular getters, but no date. I am guessing late 1950's. Likely because of the 6520 label, I managed to get it for a very reasonable price. I have it matched with a 5998 manufactured in 1957. Same construction and same sound.


----------



## agnostic1er

Thanks for the congrats about my order Lord Raven... but congrats should certainly go to the Feliks team and all the head-fi guys who initiated this project, rather than to me
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Renderman, no specifics on the Sylvanias at the moment, Lukasz chose them following my wishes about the hoped synergy with the HD800.
 You headfiers know this headphone needs an amp able to push a little the sub-bass area, tame the treble peek and add some flesh to the music/voices. That's what I said to Lukasz. BTW I ended with a light anaxilus mod on my HD800, taming the 6kHz without rolling off the top frequencies; not an easy task, I tested about 10 materials/combos, studiying Tylls discoveries... This present mod will stay on as it gives me what I wanted.
 I'm not a tube roller addict (at the moment, lol) but why not after some times, so thanks for all the infos you are sharing.
 As previously said I'll post my feelings after burn-in, so probably in september. See you later guys. Have a nice summer time!


----------



## nephilim

Update from the noise front: I brought my Elise to the garden shed and tried the socket there. It is directly connected with the distribution box and the least polluted spot on the property. While it became apparent how noisy it is outside I had a hard time to recognize the constant hum which has been bothering me for the past weeks. I would say the constant hum was gone by 95%. Of course if I crank up volume I get a hum, but that constant noise even at zero volume seemed to be mostly gone. So the issue is hidden somewhere in the house. I switched WiFi off - without effect. But as the hum is very close to 50Hz I guess it's rather the fridge or some other device which is less important for daily life than the Elise )
  
 That was the good news.
  
 What I just noticed again is that when I switch on the Elise with the headphones connected, the drivers (in the phones) seem to in/exhale once after approx. 20s. It's a very awkward sliding sound. I remember to have followed a discussion about the Schiit Lyr and that it sent DC to the phones while powering up or down (somebody even made a video of the driver membrane doing funny things). What I hear reminds me of this discussion. Have you noticed something similar? Do you always disconnect your headphones?


----------



## Anathema123

nephilim said:


> What I just noticed again is that when I switch on the Elise with the headphones connected, the drivers (in the phones) seem to in/exhale once after approx. 20s. It's a very awkward sliding sound. I remember to have followed a discussion about the Schiit Lyr and that it sent DC to the phones while powering up or down (somebody even made a video of the driver membrane doing funny things). What I hear reminds me of this discussion. Have you noticed something similar? Do you always disconnect your headphones?


 
  
 General rule of thumb would be:
  
 0. Unplugged headphones
 1. Turn on amp, volume set to 0
 2. Wait for it to warm up
 3. Plug in headphones
 4. Turn up the volume
 5. Rejoice!
  
 Same thing when turning it off: volume to 0, unplug headphones, turn off amp.


----------



## Renderman

nephilim said:


> Update from the noise front: I brought my Elise to the garden shed and tried the socket there. It is directly connected with the distribution box and the least polluted spot on the property. While it became apparent how noisy it is outside I had a hard time to recognize the constant hum which has been bothering me for the past weeks. I would say the constant hum was gone by 95%. Of course if I crank up volume I get a hum, but that constant noise even at zero volume seemed to be mostly gone. So the issue is hidden somewhere in the house. I switched WiFi off - without effect. But as the hum is very close to 50Hz I guess it's rather the fridge or some other device which is less important for daily life than the Elise )
> 
> That was the good news.
> 
> What I just noticed again is that when I switch on the Elise with the headphones connected, the drivers (in the phones) seem to in/exhale once after approx. 20s. It's a very awkward sliding sound. I remember to have followed a discussion about the Schiit Lyr and that it sent DC to the phones while powering up or down (somebody even made a video of the driver membrane doing funny things). HWhat I hear reminds me of this discussion. Have you noticed something similar? Do you always disconnect your headphones?


 
 Hi Nephilim, your symptoms (both the hum and strange sounds turning off the amp) sound very similar to mine. I tried just about everything I could think of including some high-end mains filtering. Here is what I did that finally fixed both problems at once:
  
 1. Turn of the Elise
 2. Unplug the power cord and wait for all the energy to dissipate from the capacitors (I would err on the side of caution and wait an hour)
 3. Remove all the tubes
 4. Look closely inside the holes in the sockets where the tube pins go
 5. There are small metal flaps to be seen on either side of the pin hole, use precision tweezers to bend the flaps inward,
     about 0.5 to 1mm on either side. Be careful not to bend them too far as it might weaken or break the flaps off.
 6. Clean the flaps for best contact with the tube pins (I used deoxidizer and cleaning alcohol)
 7. Replace the tubes and enjoy the Elise
  
 After this rather simple procedure my sound improved dramatically! Hum, even without mains filtering was reduced at least 10 fold to a level that was hardly even audible. The strange crackling noise (from my headphones) when turning off the Elise was also gone.
  
 In the end it seems it was just a bad connection between one or more tube pins and the socket. I really hope this provides you quick and easy relief and you don't need to spend lots of time searching for a solution. I know how frustrating it can be.
  
 I wish you good luck fixing your Elise!


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> Update from the noise front: I brought my Elise to the garden shed and tried the socket there. It is directly connected with the distribution box and the least polluted spot on the property. While it became apparent how noisy it is outside I had a hard time to recognize the constant hum which has been bothering me for the past weeks. I would say the constant hum was gone by 95%. Of course if I crank up volume I get a hum, but that constant noise even at zero volume seemed to be mostly gone. So the issue is hidden somewhere in the house. I switched WiFi off - without effect. But as the hum is very close to 50Hz I guess it's rather the fridge or some other device which is less important for daily life than the Elise )
> 
> That was the good news.
> 
> What I just noticed again is that when I switch on the Elise with the headphones connected, the drivers (in the phones) seem to in/exhale once after approx. 20s. It's a very awkward sliding sound. I remember to have followed a discussion about the Schiit Lyr and that it sent DC to the phones while powering up or down (somebody even made a video of the driver membrane doing funny things). What I hear reminds me of this discussion. Have you noticed something similar? Do you always disconnect your headphones?


 
  
 Hi n.
  
 That's great news re the hum...at least shows there should be a remedy somewhere!
  
 Yes, 'fridges/heat circulating pumps/air-con etc etc can all be possible culprits - it shouldn't be too difficult to track down - hopefully!
  
 And perhaps you might be suffering slightly from Renderman's problem, although as you haven't done much rolling yet I would hope this isn't yet the case, lol! (but certainly something to possibly look out for in the future...and as R says, if it is ever necessary to tweak those pin receptors in the amp's sockets don't be over-zealous with the tweezers!!).
  
 Whatever, I do hope all is sorted very soon, so that there is nothing to spoil MAXIMUM enjoyment from your set-up...


----------



## Lord Raven

Where does all the air come from in my music?


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Hi n.
> 
> That's great news re the hum...at least shows there should be a remedy somewhere!
> 
> ...


 
 In my case it was not an effect of tube rolling mind you, this is a problem I had with the Elise ever since I got it.


----------



## nephilim

Thanks for all the good advice! I will get some Deoxit (cannot hurt) and try to track down the polluting element in the house. It seems that I will be able to get some nice c3g-s, too. Life is good. And even better with the Elise.


----------



## nephilim

Oh, btw... I just read that the spacer ring between the C3g's glass and canister is made of asbestos. So please be careful when wiping off the asbestos particles which (at least in my case) stick to the glass surface. Of course the amount is small but you never know )


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> In my case it was not an effect of tube rolling mind you, this is a problem I had with the Elise ever since I got it.


 
 Yo, R...you were indeed very unlucky...but am glad all is now well. At least your unfortunate experience has highlighted something that enlightens all of us, along with a very useful method of remedying if necessary...
  


nephilim said:


> Oh, btw... I just read that the spacer ring between the C3g's glass and canister is made of asbestos. So please be careful when wiping off the asbestos particles which (at least in my case) stick to the glass surface. Of course the amount is small but you never know )


 
  
 Good point n...can't be too careful with that stuff, lol!
  
 ps. Life will get even better yet, I promise...I still can't believe the improvement in the Elise even beyond the 100+ hours (especially with the C3gs!...will be very interested in your findings if you do indeed get those 'S's...). I will also be interested to hear whether you ever experience the (debatable!) phenomenon I mentioned some while back - viz a noticeable leap in performance in a session compared to the previous one - and one that is not obviously down to different states of ears/mind/environmental factors/time of day etc. etc. (I stick by my belief, regardless!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## CITIZENLIN

agnostic1er said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just received a mail from Lukasz
> 
> ...


 
 Congrats!!!That's a great news. I am still waiting for email from Lukasz . I believe I put my order in before you. So should be any day now.  Cant wait to try Tung Sol 7236 and C3gs combo.


----------



## agnostic1er

citizenlin said:


> Congrats!!!That's a great news. I am still waiting for email from Lukasz . I believe I put my order in before you. So should be any day now.  Cant wait to try Tung Sol 7236 and C3gs combo.


 
 I put mine 2015 06 02 but perhaps did Lukasz take it in account only at the time my returned Espressivo arrived safefully in Poland (2015 06 13)?...


----------



## Shaffer

agnostic1er said:


> I put mine 2015 06 02 but perhaps did Lukasz take it in account only at the time my returned Espressivo arrived safefully in Poland (2015 06 13)?...




That would make sense.


----------



## CITIZENLIN

agnostic1er said:


> I put mine 2015 06 02 but perhaps did Lukasz take it in account only at the time my returned Espressivo arrived safefully in Poland (2015 06 13)?..


 
 Hi agnostic
  
  
 My bad,....Your order was before mine. I put my order on June 16th.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I got a good news too. I just got msg from Colin said C3gs adapters are tested and ready.


----------



## Lord Raven

Guys,
  
 Do check out the album I created, waiting for your kind comments 
  
 Love from Poland - Feliks Elise
  
http://www.head-fi.org/g/a/993455/feliks-elise/


----------



## Shaffer

Has anyone used these very tall, coin base rca 6SN7GTB? Supposedly, they were made for Wurlitzer. No light show, huge bass. I have a NOS pair lit right now celebrating their second hour of being alive. Well, lit is a relative term, as there's no light show at all.


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 On top of the tube is a small curved wire - that has to be the heater wire. Doesn't it glow in the dark?
  
 (If u double click on the picture u get a full size pic, and the little wire is clearly visible.)


----------



## Shaffer

Hi Mordy. The wire, itself, doesn't glow, but the tips of the rods (?) it's attached to do.


----------



## Lorspeaker

How's the sound of this coin base tube ?


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
  
 Here are two pictures of a RCA 6SN7 tube that I have that sounds very good:
  
  
 This picture is a closeup of that little heater wire with the two end posts glowing.





  
 Here is a picture of the tube - a rebranded RCA:




  
 Except for the coin base these tubes probably are similar. To me they sound the best of the RCA 6SN7 tubes that I have (which doesn't tell much since I just bought some inexpensive ones to try.) The tube is from September 1965.


----------



## Shaffer

Mordy, now that I've looked at your pics, and at my tubes in a very dark room, the heater wire does glow on mine, albeit not very brightly. You've given me hope! I'll burn them in for a time....


----------



## hypnos1

Bad news for anyone thinking of experiencing the joy of the GEC 6AS7G variants - the prices are getting even sillier I'm afraid...(they have been for quite a while now). The other day a single NOS (curved bottom, mind you!) went for £160 ($249) on ebay...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...this does not bode well, I fear. Certainly debatable whether they really are worth such a price - unless, as Renderman states, one forgoes any rolling whatsoever and plumps straight for these (and hopes they suit, lol!). In addition, I would think only really viable if the source, DAC and headphones are top-notch...
 Why oh why can no-one make as good a replacement in this day and age - at a sensible price?...Lots of reasons...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Good hunting folks!!


----------



## agnostic1er

renderman said:


> Great news agnostic1er! Any specifics on the Sylvanias?


 
 they are Sylvanias 6sn7 WGTA, "very nice NOS tubes" according to Lukasz.


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Bad news for anyone thinking of experiencing the joy of the GEC 6AS7G variants - the prices are getting even sillier I'm afraid...(they have been for quite a while now). The other day a single NOS (curved bottom, mind you!) went for £160 ($249) on ebay...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 My sentiments exactly hypnos1, only worth it if you have to have the top notch tubes or you are able to get them for 100-150 euros per tube. IMHO. I really do believe these would suite the majority of Elise owners.
  
 Interesting point, with today's advances in technology and production methods, one would expect better tubes would be possible. Would love to have a discussion on that topic 
  


agnostic1er said:


> they are Sylvanias 6sn7 WGTA, "very nice NOS tubes" according to Lukasz.


 
  
 Good to know agnostic1er, thanks. would like to hear your opinion on them once you get them in your clutches


----------



## mordy

Hi all,
  
 Trying to explore different power tubes for the Elise. So far I am satisfied with the Siemens C3gS as driver tubes, and I am using Chatham 6AS7G as power tubes. The GEC 6AS7 are too expensive for me to buy, although a lot of people claim they are the best.
  
 Looking into less expensive alternatives, but the tubes I am listing below also tend to be expensive to stratospheric in price, especially if it says Western Electric on them.
  
 Has anybody tried the following tubes in the Elise? Comments?
  
 5998 (Not GE which is different)
 5998A
 2399
 6520
 7236
 421
  
 There is a fair amount of confusion regarding these tubes with different variants - please identify the tube (prefer pictures).
  
 My main question is if it pays to get any of these since I have the Chatham 6AS7G which are well regarded.


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 The name escapes me for the moment, but there is a German (?) manufacturer of CRT displays for commercial airplanes that did a run of super quality vacuum tubes in the $1800-2000 range (?) using the most modern manufacturing methods.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Trying to explore different power tubes for the Elise. So far I am satisfied with the Siemens C3gS as driver tubes, and I am using Chatham 6AS7G as power tubes. The GEC 6AS7 are too expensive for me to buy, although a lot of people claim they are the best.
> 
> ...


 
  
 5998 = 2399 These are often noisy, quite expensive and thus not what I would call a good buy at their current prices.
 421A is a custom-made 5998 with 1.5 times of the transconductance. Terribly expensive and personally I doubt they are any better than a 5998.
 6520 = Chatham 6AS7 (most of the time)
 5998A = only made by GE (I believe). However, I have seen a Tung-Sol 7236 labeled as a 5998A. 
  
 In my opinion, if you want to upgrade from your Chathams, the best compromise between cost and performance are the GEC 6080, slotted Bendix 6080 and Mullard 6080.


----------



## Shaffer

I'm still playing with 6BL7s during the night [read: quiet]. Copped another NOS pair - *Westinghouse*.

Pro: Much more power than I expected and more benign overload characteristics.

Con: Syrupy slow, boring, totally unexciting, boring, limited extension at both frequency extremes, boring, no real dynamics. Did I mention that it was really boring?

OTOH, the GE-made Raytheons are still producing some of the best sound I've heard from the Elise and HD600.

Next step is to try a pair of GE-branded GEs. Unless someone has a better and hopefully even less expensive idea.


----------



## mordy

Thanks Gibosi,
  
 Which 6520 is the same as the 5998?
  
 How do I identify the right Mullard 6080 - in other words, are they all British made or are there Russian rebrands of the 6080?


----------



## mordy

Found a coin base 6080. Do tubes with coin bases sound the same as the octal versions? Do they fit in the same octal socket?


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Thanks Gibosi,
> 
> Which 6520 is the same as the 5998?
> 
> How do I identify the right Mullard 6080 - in other words, are they all British made or are there Russian rebrands of the 6080?


 
  
 If the 6520 has domino plates, it is a 5998. Otherwise, it will look identical to your Chatham 6AS7.
  
 Mullard 6080: The one on the left is from 1957, and the one on the right, 1966. As with all Philips tubes, the production code tells all:
  
 AJ = 6080
 R = Mullard/Mitcham
  
 1957: AJ0 R7J
 1966: AJ1 R6D1


----------



## Lord Raven

Guys, 

I just wanted to let you know that I died tonight and went to heaven. I accidently played Drum Thunder Suite by Art Blake on Elise. 

Regards 
Lord Raven


----------



## Lord Raven

I am planning to sell my headphones, what do you guys suggest that pairs well with Elise?


----------



## gibosi

lord raven said:


> I am planning to sell my headphones, what do you guys suggest that pairs well with Elise?


 
  
 Any HP with an impedance of at least 100 ohms.


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> The name escapes me for the moment, but there is a German (?) manufacturer of CRT displays for commercial airplanes that did a run of super quality vacuum tubes in the $1800-2000 range (?) using the most modern manufacturing methods.


 
  
 Wow! Very interesting, I never knew that, were they better then the best tubes ever made previously? I woul love more info on them!


----------



## JazzVinyl

lord raven said:


> You did mine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Congrats on "Lucky 13" Renderman!  My invoice was #0013, so wonder what my Amp S/N will be?
  
 No word on the status of my Elise yet...hoping to get a msg soon...
  
 .


----------



## MIKELAP

renderman said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Renderman,
> ...


 

 Talking about the ELROG tubes ?


----------



## Shaffer

...deleted


----------



## mordy

Thanks Mikelap - could not remember the name, only that it starts on E.
  
 http://www.audionote.com.au/NEW_-_Elrog_Tubes.html
  
 They only make a couple of types, and one source selling them stated that they cannot promise delivery since the factory cannot deliver enough tubes.
  
 Anyhow, this is a sophisticated maker of airplane cockpit displays for commercial aircraft that decide to go into the vacuum tube business using the most up to date manufacturing techniques.
  




  




  
 People who have heard these tubes claim that they outperform NOS tubes with a wide margin.


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 There is another modern tube manufacturer in the Czech Republic that makes around a dozen different tubes.
  
 http://www.kraudio.com/
  
 Here is a youtube video:
  
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNVZ8Pg3poo
  
 (While u r on youtube, type in the name Mullard to see how vacuum tubes were made in the old days...)


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Thanks Mikelap - could not remember the name, only that it starts on E.
> 
> http://www.audionote.com.au/NEW_-_Elrog_Tubes.html
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi m....I should hope so at those prices, lol!!!...


----------



## gibosi

As some of you may know, the Mullard ECC32 is legendary in the 6SN7 world, even though it is not a perfect replacement. And unfortunately, prices for these tubes is sky-high. However, I think I may have found a way to experience this tube for a fraction of that price. The ECC31 is identical to the ECC32, except for the fact that it has a single cathode, rather than two separate cathodes. But no problem, there are inexpensive adapters available which also provide the added benefit of reducing the cathode resistance by half, a bit more optimal for the ECC31 and ECC32.
  
 Also, these draw 1.0A compared to the 0.6A for a 6SN7, but I seem to recall that the Elise can handle this.
  
 (A little more info can be found in my post in the 6SN7 thread:
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts/5220#post_11777628 )
  
 The sound I am hearing conforms with the reviews I have read regarding the ECC32, very solid bass with substantial impact and detail, the mids are smooth with just a hint of lushness, and the highs are extended, with excellent detail and no trace of harshness.
  
 A very British combination today: Mullard GZ32, Mullard ECC31 and GEC 6AS7... Exquisite:


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> As some of you may know, the Mullard ECC32 is legendary in the 6SN7 world, even though it is not a perfect replacement. And unfortunately, prices for these tubes is sky-high. However, I think I may have found a way to experience this tube for a fraction of that price. The ECC31 is identical to the ECC32, except for the fact that it has a single cathode, rather than two separate cathodes. But no problem, there are inexpensive adapters available which also provide the added benefit of reducing the cathode resistance by half, a bit more optimal for the ECC31 and ECC32.
> 
> Also, these draw 1.0A compared to the 0.6A for a 6SN7, but I seem to recall that the Elise can handle this.
> 
> ...


 
 Gawd...that is epic!
  
 Bet that sounds pretty darn sweet.......man, I can't wait to get my amp!


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 I am a little surprised - the NR73 are not exactly bargain tubes:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MP-of-MULLARD-NR73-CV1285-ECC31-6N7-Tube-NOS-NIB-Square-Getter-229-/291475747843?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43dd4ef403


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> I am a little surprised - the NR73 are not exactly bargain tubes:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/MP-of-MULLARD-NR73-CV1285-ECC31-6N7-Tube-NOS-NIB-Square-Getter-229-/291475747843?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43dd4ef403


 
  
 No, not exactly bargain tubes, but still, a fraction of what a real ECC32 typically costs. Moreover, in my experience,"Buy It Now" auctions out of Hong Kong are often outrageous. I bought my pair through a standard auction from a seller in Italy, and when the dust settled, paid $125 for the pair. Yes, I know that according to your standards, this is still not a "bargain," but again, compared to what a real Mullard ECC32 typically costs, I think I got a terrific deal.


----------



## MusclePharm

So, based on many posts on this thread, I may assume that as of now, JAN CAHG 6AS7G are the better alternatives to the CEG 6AS7G AI834, which currently hold the crown on the Elise's power tubes... right? I'm looking for an alternative for now, as hypnos mentioned, GEC's are getting stupidly overpriced... still, the JAN CAHG's are VERY hard to find!


----------



## Shaffer

musclepharm said:


> So, based on many posts on this thread, I may assume that as of now, JAN CAHG 6AS7G are the better alternatives to the CEG 6AS7G AI834, which currently hold the crown on the Elise's power tubes... right? I'm looking for an alternative for now, as hypnos mentioned, GEC's are getting stupidly overpriced... still, the JAN CAHG's are VERY hard to find!




CAHG is Chatham, right?

I found my pair at an electronics store that was link'd in the LD thread, when a pair of 7-pin spacers was suggested to another individual. I started looking around the site and came across a pair of NOS JAN Chatham 6AS7G for $45. This was a few months ago. I guess I'm trying to say that you never know what can come up in a somewhat unexpected place. If you hang out a bit and still keep looking, I'm sure a pair will find its way into your amp.

Speaking of these tubes, lately, I've mostly listened to RCA 6080 and the stock Russian 6AS7G. Very good tubes. Last night I rolled the JAN Chathams into the Elise. Better in every way imaginable. Some aspects of the sound showing a more subtle improvement, while others, like low-level detail and/or the proportion to the recorded space allotted to each instrument, being rather startling in their scope and scale.


----------



## MusclePharm

Yes, I was referring to Chatham's. I'm wondering what would be the difference between a Chatham's 6AS7G and a 6080WA and how would they compare..


----------



## gibosi

musclepharm said:


> Yes, I was referring to Chatham's. I'm wondering what would be the difference between a Chatham's 6AS7G and a 6080WA and how would they compare..


 
  
 Electrically, the Chatham 6AS7 and 6080 are almost the same, but they do not sound the same. I haven't listened to either in quite some time, but I seem to remember that the 6AS7 was a tad bit brighter and the 6080 had the stronger bass.
  
 There is a pair of Chatham 6AS7 on eBay, but they are labeled 6520 and somewhat expensive. The 6520 is nothing more than a cherry-picked 6AS7 that was selected for closely matched sections.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tung-Sol-Chatham-6520-6AS7-6080-Vacuum-Tube-Lot-of-2-Same-Date-Code-Amplitrex-/281647617188
  
 Another strategy is to buy singles and match them up later. Here is a single relabeled as a GE
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-6AS7G-AMERICAN-MADE/161770735069
  
 And given that the Chathams are tough to find, I personally think the Mullard 6080 is of comparable quality. This listing looks to be a pretty good deal:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valve-tube-6080WA-PHILIPS-ORIGINAL-Rohren-MINT-ORIGINAL-BOX-Real-N-O-S-/271936322460


----------



## gibosi

musclepharm said:


> So, based on many posts on this thread, I may assume that as of now, JAN CAHG 6AS7G are the better alternatives to the CEG 6AS7G AI834, which currently hold the crown on the Elise's power tubes... right? I'm looking for an alternative for now, as hypnos mentioned, GEC's are getting stupidly overpriced... still, the JAN CAHG's are VERY hard to find!


 
  
 I would say that the Chatham is a very good low-cost alternative. And I would rank the Mullard 6080 as another very good low-cost alternative. But in my opinion, there are other options that are better. To my ears, at least, the GEC 6080 and the Bendix 6080, especially the slotted ones, are a step above the Chathams and the Mullards. However, while nowhere near as expensive as GEC 6AS7s, which typically go for $400 to $500/pair, these others are still not cheap. GEC 6080s typically go for around $150/pair and the slotted Bendix, around $200/pair.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> I would say that the Chatham is a very good low-cost alternative. And I would rank the Mullard 6080 as another very good low-cost alternative. But in my opinion, there are other options that are better. To my ears, at least, the GEC 6080 and the Bendix 6080, especially the slotted ones, are a step above the Chathams and the Mullards. However, while nowhere near as expensive as GEC 6AS7s, which typically go for $400 to $500/pair, these others are still not cheap.* GEC 6080s typically go for around $150/pair and the slotted Bendix, around $200/pair.*




How would you classify the degree of sonic improvement with the highlighted tubes compared to the Chatham 6AS7G? Are we talking a night and day difference, or something more subtle, or, say, the sort of difference one hears between the aforementioned Chathams and RCA 6AS7G? TIA


----------



## Shaffer

*Headphone survey time. What is everyone using with their Elises?*

Personally, I find that a given headphone almost gets drawn to a specific amp, or two. For example, my Violectric V200 loves K702. K7XX, not so much, but a Meier Concerto is a completely different story. The Elise responds equally well to both AKGs and they're usually my cans of choice. When rolling 6BL7, the HD600 is my only option: easy to drive and fairly sensitive. The tube doesn't seem to care for low-z cans, unfortunately.

In essence, 8/10 listening sessions I use either bass modded K702 or K7XX. More of K702, all being said. If other folks are using K7-series AKGs, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts as to their match with the Elise, and perhaps which tubes you found to sound most favorable. 

It would be fun to hear which tubes folks are using with their HPs of choice, regardless.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> How would you classify the degree of sonic improvement with the highlighted tubes compared to the Chatham 6AS7G? Are we talking a night and day difference, or something more subtle, or, say, the sort of difference one hears between the aforementioned Chathams and RCA 6AS7G? TIA


 
  
 My Elise is not here yet...
  
 But my preferred cans are Beyer DT-990 (600 ohm)
  
 And I own Senn 580's w/Silver cable upgrade and several lesser mods.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> How would you classify the degree of sonic improvement with the highlighted tubes compared to the Chatham 6AS7G? Are we talking a night and day difference, or something more subtle, or, say, the sort of difference one hears between the aforementioned Chathams and RCA 6AS7G? TIA


 
  
 In my opinion, the differences between these top-tier tubes is usually subtle, subjective and personal. I don't know that I would ever say it is "night and day". But then, my ears and gear.... That said, given that you describe the difference between going from RCA 6080 and the stock Russian 6AS7 to the Chatham 6AS7 as "better in every way imaginable", then I would say that going to the GEC 6080 and/or Bendix 6080 would also be "better in every way imaginable." These tubes offer better dynamics, more air, transparency and soundstage imaging, layering and presentation.
  
 As others have said, the GEC 6080 is very similar to the GEC 6AS7, with a little less micro-detail and layering. Personally, I find both of these GECs to be somewhat bright, cool and analytical. The Bendix 6080 is closer to the 5998, not as bright as the GECs, very linear, detailed and layered, with very good bass. But again, these are subtle differences which may or may not be significant depending on one's ears and headphones.
  
 I should note, in my Glenn OTL, 5998s are simply too noisy with the C3g. I suspect that this is a function of the increased gain. The C3g has a mu of about 40, twice that of a 6SN7 (20). and the 5998 has a mu of about 5.5, more than twice that of a 6AS7 (2.0). However, with 6SN7's and other medium mu tubes they are sublime. I will be very interested to learn how the 5998/C3g combination plays in the Elise.
  
 About headphones, I use the Sennheiser HD 700 with my Glenn. While I love this headphone, sometimes I wish the bass response was a bit more pronounced and sometimes I find the brightness to be a bit too much, but then again, this is why I roll tubes! Currently the Mullard ECC31 with the slotted Bendix 6080 seems tailor-made for the 700s, very strong bass and very smooth midrange and highs.


----------



## mordy

I have both the Chatham 6080 and 6AS7G tubes, and as Gibosi mentioned, they sound quite different.
  
 The 6AS7G is more refined and has better detail and layering overall, but the 6080 packs more punch in the bass and treble - both are very enjoyable.
  
 It comes down to a matter of taste and your mood. The 6080 excels in mid bass detail as well.
  
  
 Re headphones: I do most of my listening through speakers, but I have a set of Yamaha HPH MT-220 headphones that are quite good and have a very strong and detailed bass. This model has recently been discontinued, but you may possibly still be able to find it for $140-150. A bargain IMHO and well worth it - some people feel that it outperforms headphones costing three time more.


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 How would you say that the NR73 compares to the C3g?


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> I have both the Chatham 6080 and 6AS7G tubes, and as Gibosi mentioned, they sound quite different.
> 
> The 6AS7G is more refined and has better detail and layering overall, but the 6080 packs more punch in the bass and treble - both are very enjoyable.
> 
> It comes down to a matter of taste and your mood. The 6080 excels in mid bass detail as well.




I have both, as well, and am slightly embarrassed to say that my 6080 aren't fully burned in yet.



> Re headphones: I do most of my listening through speakers, but I have a set of Yamaha HPH MT-220 headphones that are quite good and have a very strong and detailed bass. This model has recently been discontinued, but you may possibly still be able to find it for $140-150. A bargain IMHO and well worth it - some people feel that it outperforms headphones costing three time more.




I didn't realize that you primarily use the Elise as a preamp. What's the rest of the system?


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> In my opinion, the differences between these top-tier tubes is usually subtle, subjective and personal. I don't know that I would ever say it is "night and day". But then, my ears and gear.... That said, given that you describe the difference between going from RCA 6080 and the stock Russian 6AS7 to the Chatham 6AS7 as "better in every way imaginable", then I would say that going to the GEC 6080 and/or Bendix 6080 would also be "better in every way imaginable." These tubes offer better dynamics, more air, transparency and soundstage imaging, layering and presentation. [...]




A couple of weeks ago I came across a killer deal on a batch of JAN RCA 6080. Enough not to buy another 6080 for the rest of my life. Most test NOS or better, and most have the same date code. They're all 1952 D-getter. I also have a 1960 JAN RCA 6080, along with a variety of non-JAN RCA 6080. For whatever reason, the JAN and the non-JAN bottles don't sound the same, especially the 1952 vintage. No joke, they're the most transparent sounding tubes I have, but they're not better than the rest in every way imaginable. The JANs sound fairly very lean on the bottom end. 1960 vintage less so than the 1952. Formulating a plan, I think I'll look for a pair of Bendix 6080 over the winter, which should give me enough time to fully appreciate what I already have, and make the purchase more special.


----------



## Shaffer

I'm not sure what this part is called; it's the bottom plate of the tube with holes for the prongs. The key is on it, as well, and that's the part I'm concerned about. I have another tube just like it. Is it safe to position the key on the damaged tube the same as the undamaged one, or is there something else I should look for?


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 Don't understand what u r embarrassed about - it is a tedious job to burn in tubes; a good rule of thumb is 50 hours. I just let my Musicbee library run, with headphones plugged in (WAF) and let it run continuously until I get enough hours. The Elise is cooled by two old computer fans on my rack and never gets really hot.
  
 My system consists of a 110W Sony 1980's amp-preamp with tone controls and a watt meter . It has a circuit for an external equalizer, and here I insert the Elise, which can be switched in or out with a switch on the back of the amp. The speakers are plebeian Polk Monitor 50 speakers with a 10" 50W self powered Polk subwoofer. These speakers sound excellent and sound better than my $3000 old high end speakers from the 80's. (Did I mention that they cost $80 each shipped from Newegg?)
  
 Listening to AM radio for news works better on a little transistor radio than through my system, using the internet for the same AM station. The Elise picks up every nuance of the broadcast clips. The sound quality and loudness is very uneven, and I am being made aware of it to the point of irritation - it is just too revealing.
  
  
 Pulled out a bag of old power cords and tested a few for reduced hum. Not much of a difference with the PC or appliance leftover power cords that I have. Then I added another tweak - don't really know if it helps, but should improve airflow around the amp.
  





  
  




  
 Put on these aluminum cone footers under the Elise, attached with Blue Tack. Well, Yellow Tack ersatz chewing gum or whatever from the 99c store. (The pictures are from my Little Dot, but I moved the cones over to the Elise.)
  
 The only draw back is that there is less headroom in my rack so I have to be careful when I pull out tubes not to hit the shelf above....
  
 Have fun!


----------



## mordy

Hi S,
  
 Did not understand your last post - perhaps you could post a couple of pictures to explain?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> I'm not sure what this part is called; it's the bottom plate of the tube with holes for the prongs. The key is on it, as well, and that's the part I'm concerned about. I have another tube just like it. Is it safe to position the key on the damaged tube the same as the undamaged one, or is there something else I should look for?


 
  
 Do I understand that the keyway has been broken off the base of the tube? If so, as long as you line everything up correctly when you insert the tub, everything will be fine. I have a number of tubes with broken keyways and all I do is put a line of red pinstripe auto tape on the side of the base so that I can easily line everything up by eye. Or, you can purchase these keyway adapters for not much money:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-OCTAL-TUBE-REPLACEMENT-KEYWAY-ADAPTERS-FIXES-BROKEN-CENTER-POST-/151709475710?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item235296e37e


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Do I understand that the keyway has been broken off the base of the tube? If so, as long as you line everything up correctly when you insert the tub, everything will be fine. I have a number of tubes with broken keyways and all I do is put a line of red pinstripe auto tape on the side of the base so that I can easily line everything up by eye. Or, you can purchase these keyway adapters for not much money:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-OCTAL-TUBE-REPLACEMENT-KEYWAY-ADAPTERS-FIXES-BROKEN-CENTER-POST-/151709475710?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item235296e37e




^^^That is precisely the part that came off the tube. I have it and it's intact. My question is, how do I align it into the correct position? Do I use the same kind of tube as a guide or is there a better way? BTW, it's a '58 vintage RCA 6AS7G black plate. I have it paired with another black plate from '56 whose construction seems identical.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> ^^^That is precisely the part that came off the tube. I have it and it's intact. My question is, how do I align it into the correct position? Do I use the same kind of tube as a guide or is there a better way? BTW, it's a '58 vintage RCA 6AS7G black plate. I have it paired with another black plate from '56 whose construction seems identical.


 
  
 Holding the tube upside down, you should be able to see the orientation of the "key" at the point where it broke off as below. This is the only reliable way to align it correctly.
  

  
 I managed to pick up a pair of 5998s cheap because somebody was careless when removing the tubes and broke the keyways. So my advice is don't be too reluctant to purchase such tubes. They can often be obtained at a substantial discount. And as long as they measure well and care is used when inserting them into the socket, they are perfectly fine.


----------



## Shaffer

Wouldn't ya know it, the part broke off as an almost perfect circle. It's as if it became unglued. There's no way to tell. :mad:

I greatly appreciate the help, regardless. From you, too, Mordy. Thank you.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Wouldn't ya know it, the part broke off as an almost perfect circle. It's as if it became unglued. There's no way to tell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I am going out on a limb here, but this just might work. If you look at the datasheet for the 6AS7
  
 http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/6as7g-1.pdf
  
 the pinout diagram corresponds to viewing the tube upside down. Notice that pins 8 and 7 are just to the right of the key. These pins correspond to the heaters. So it seems to me that if you work your way around the tube measuring adjacent pins, the only ones that should show any continuity are the heaters. So if what I am suggesting is valid, measuring in this way should indicate which pins correspond to the heaters. And once you know this, you will know where the key is.
  
 Cheers


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> How would you say that the NR73 compares to the C3g?


 
  
 In truth, I have not been able to spend much time with this tube. Further, the tube hasn't been burnt-in much at all. I am personally uncomfortable running the amp unattended for hours at a time, so I usually burn tubes in simply by listening to them. And so it takes a long time. I would guess I have only about 10 hours on it. And to complicate matters even more, I have used different power tubes during each listening session, and on one occasion, I also swapped out a rectifier. So I don't really know exactly how this tube sounds. However, I can say that I like what I have heard so far.
  
 I think it is safe to say that the C3g is a more resolving tube than the NR73. Very few tubes have the resolution of the C3g. So "detail" guys may want to look elsewhere. However, I am a "tone" guy. Tone always trumps detail for me. And so for example, I still prefer a Sylvania 6AS7W over either of the C3gs I have.
  
 Anyway, will report back after the NR73 has been thoroughly burned in and I have had more time to understand what I am hearing....
  
 In the meantime, a little tube porn for your viewing pleasure. lol 
  
 I think these are pretty old. For one thing, they appear to have a cap getters, which were used on earlier tubes. Also, there are no CV numbers on these tubes. (NR73 appears to be an early British Naval designation. And the "D" indicates the Blackburn factory.)
  
 The British Common Valve (CV) system is known to have been in use by 1942, but the implementation may well have been a rather slow process. On some tubes, I have seen CV1285 printed on the glass, just below NR73, and my guess is that those tubes are later than mine. So my hunch is that it is likely that mine were manufactured during the 1940's for the war effort.


----------



## agnostic1er

Hi guys,
  
 Just received my Elise n° 15 !!!
 Absolutely nothing to complain about, perfect building and works/sounds well.
 Drivers tubes are exactly Jan Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA green label black base 1974 tested 9/9 and 10.5/10.5 (BTW nice info from Lukasz).
 50 to 100 hours for burn-in and I'll return to you.


----------



## Renderman

agnostic1er said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just received my Elise n° 15 !!!
> Absolutely nothing to complain about, perfect building and works/sounds well.
> ...


 
 Woohoo agnostic1er! Congratulations and welcome to the club! I have some very similar tubes so maybe we can compare notes!


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Guys,
  
 What do you think about this tube? Is it the one under consideration?
  
 I have found a guy in my home town who has like one million tubes, he is an addict and lives in his warehouse. This picture was shared by him, if I get lucky I will get all of you desired tubes  Will only want you guys to educate me so that I could find something good..
  

  
  
 Quote:


musclepharm said:


> So, based on many posts on this thread, I may assume that as of now, JAN CAHG 6AS7G are the better alternatives to the CEG 6AS7G AI834, which currently hold the crown on the Elise's power tubes... right? I'm looking for an alternative for now, as hypnos mentioned, GEC's are getting stupidly overpriced... still, the JAN CAHG's are VERY hard to find!


 
  
  


shaffer said:


> CAHG is Chatham, right?
> 
> I found my pair at an electronics store that was link'd in the LD thread, when a pair of 7-pin spacers was suggested to another individual. I started looking around the site and came across a pair of NOS JAN Chatham 6AS7G for $45. This was a few months ago. I guess I'm trying to say that you never know what can come up in a somewhat unexpected place. If you hang out a bit and still keep looking, I'm sure a pair will find its way into your amp.
> 
> Speaking of these tubes, lately, I've mostly listened to RCA 6080 and the stock Russian 6AS7G. Very good tubes. Last night I rolled the JAN Chathams into the Elise. Better in every way imaginable. Some aspects of the sound showing a more subtle improvement, while others, like low-level detail and/or the proportion to the recorded space allotted to each instrument, being rather startling in their scope and scale.


----------



## Lord Raven

agnostic1er said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just received my Elise n° 15 !!!
> Absolutely nothing to complain about, perfect building and works/sounds well.
> ...


 
 Hi Hubert,
  
 Many congratulations!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Finally  You almost missed the Sweet 16 but don't worry, all Elise are the same except for the tubes 
  
 Let's enjoy some Elise with even coffee!
  
 Cheers!


----------



## gibosi

lord raven said:


> What do you think about this tube? Is it the one under consideration?
> 
> I have found a guy in my home town who has like one million tubes, he is an addict and lives in his warehouse. This picture was shared by him, if I get lucky I will get all of you desired tubes  Will only want you guys to educate me so that I could find something good..


 
  
 That appears to be an RCA 6AS7. These are very common. You might want to ask if he has any Chatham 6AS7, Tung-Sol 6AS7 or even GEC 6AS7?


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Felix,
  
 I am a big fan of Focal speakers, this is why I got Focal Spirit One cans. They're for sale and I am willing to get something from the Sennheiser HD series, I hope they sit comfortably on my ears. Only reason to sell mine Spirit One's is that they hurt my ears. Otherwise I think they're pretty detailed and can be heard on all kinds of music. Tubes are stock for now.
  
 Cheers!
  
 Quote:


shaffer said:


> *Headphone survey time. What is everyone using with their Elises?*
> 
> Personally, I find that a given headphone almost gets drawn to a specific amp, or two. For example, my Violectric V200 loves K702. K7XX, not so much, but a Meier Concerto is a completely different story. The Elise responds equally well to both AKGs and they're usually my cans of choice. When rolling 6BL7, the HD600 is my only option: easy to drive and fairly sensitive. The tube doesn't seem to care for low-z cans, unfortunately.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lord Raven

gibosi said:


> That appears to be an RCA 6AS7. These are very common. You might want to ask if he has any Chatham 6AS7, Tung-Sol 6AS7 or even GEC 6AS7?


 
 Gibosi Bro!
  
 You got to reply to my PM first 
  
 I just pinged him with this information, he is a little dumb, I don't know how he managed to gather a warehouse full of tubes and still does not know their worth. WTH!


----------



## hypnos1

agnostic1er said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Just received my Elise n° 15 !!!
> Absolutely nothing to complain about, perfect building and works/sounds well.
> ...


 
  
 Good to hear she arrived safe and sound a1er, and that she's performing as we would hope...look forward to your later findings...
  
 ENJOY!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


lord raven said:


>


 
  
 Hi LR.
  
 Re. those tubes, if your supplier isn't too au fait with them, you will have to make sure the Chatham (or Tung Sol/Chatham) 6AS7Gs have the long COPPER rods/posts as shown in gibosi's post on page 108. As for price, Shaffer was very lucky to find a NOS pair for $45, so you could start from there in your negociations - or even less, if he hasn't a clue lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 If you're REALLY lucky (but most unlikely, alas!) ask if he has the British GEC or Osram 6AS7G variants - CV2523/A1834 (a NOS tube recently went for £160  - about $250!!).
  
 GOOD LUCK!


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> If you're REALLY lucky (but most unlikely, alas!) ask if he has the British GEC or Osram 6AS7G variants - CV2523/A1834 (a NOS tube recently went for £160  - about $250!!).
> 
> GOOD LUCK!


 
  
 Hi Hypnos1, i'm glad I didn't pay anywhere near that for my GECs BUT I would not part for them at that price or more! The GECs are here to stay : I hope you can find yourself a pair of those Lord Raven or if not, at least a set of Bendix slotted 6080s.
  
 I've been looking for Philips 6SN7GT (Grey/black glass) lately, if anyone know of any of these for sale i'd be interested.
  
 Have 2 pairs of Philips 6080WA (Made by Mullard) on the way, if anyone is interested I am willing to sell or trade a pair.


----------



## SonicTrance

hypnos1 said:


> Good to hear she arrived safe and sound a1er, and that she's performing as we would hope...look forward to your later findings...
> 
> ENJOY!
> 
> ...


 
 I bought that one, lol. I've paid a premium for five of these now and also got a good deal on a quad set of used round based ones (that tested NOS btw)
 I think they're worth it. GEC A1834 together with Mullard ECC35's, doesn't get any better than that in my book.


----------



## Renderman

sonictrance said:


> I bought that one, lol. I've paid a premium for five of these now and also got a good deal on a quad set of used round based ones (that tested NOS btw)
> I think they're worth it. GEC A1834 together with Mullard ECC35's, doesn't get any better than that in my book.


 
  Wow, congratulations on finding a quad of A1834's! Very rare to find such a set of these rare tubes, how did you ever manage to get a good deal? 
  
 I'm glad at least one other person here got the chance to try the GECs and, Hypnos1 and myself are not the only ones enjoying every note emerging from them 
  
 P.S. I love your picture and the way your amp looks too!


----------



## SonicTrance

renderman said:


> Wow, congratulations on finding a quad of A1834's! Very rare to find such a set of these rare tubes, how did you ever manage to get a good deal?
> 
> I'm glad at least one other person here got the chance to try the GECs and, Hypnos1 and myself are not the only ones enjoying every note emerging from them
> 
> P.S. I love your picture and the way your amp looks too!


 
 Thanks! I didn't expect these tubes to sound as good as they do before I bought them. But yeah, to me they're worth it.
  
 I'm glad you like my amp. I've put a lot of work into it, both on the inside as well as outside


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> I am going out on a limb here, but this just might work. If you look at the datasheet for the 6AS7
> 
> http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/6as7g-1.pdf
> 
> ...




That's really _very _clever. I've been thinking about it all day and decided that I don't trust myself enough to risk an amp over a $15 tube. Sure, I really wanted to hear the tube....

I am consoled by the fact that the tall bottle GE/Hytron 6SN7 that arrived today doesn't hum in the Darkvoice. Warming up now for a first listen. Given my last couple of days, I really need a shot of happiness. 

Are you guys still interested in hearing how the Darkvoice sounds next to the Elise? I think I'm ready to discuss it.


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 Of course we are waiting to hear about how the DV compares to the Elise!


----------



## Renderman

Quote:



shaffer said:


> I am consoled by the fact that the tall bottle GE/Hytron 6SN7 that arrived today doesn't hum in the Darkvoice. Warming up now for a first listen. Given my last couple of days, I really need a shot of happiness.
> 
> Are you guys still interested in hearing how the Darkvoice sounds next to the Elise? I think I'm ready to discuss it.


 
  
   Quote:


mordy said:


> Hi Shaffer,
> 
> Of course we are waiting to hear about how the DV compares to the Elise!


 

  
 I agree Mordy! I would love to hear how the Darkvoice compares to the Elise, or else read what Shaffer impressions are  Please do tell Shaffer.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> That's really _very _clever. I've been thinking about it all day and decided that I don't trust myself enough to risk an amp over a $15 tube. Sure, I really wanted to hear the tube....


 
  
 Out of curiosity, I pulled out my multimeter and measured the impedance of each pair of adjacent pins on an RCA 6AS7G. Sure enough, pins 7 and 8, the heaters, show continuity, as predicted. But all the other adjacent pin combinations, that is 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, 5-6, 6-7 and 8-1 show an open. So this does work. 
  
 And I very much doubt that anything bad would happen if you inserted the tube incorrectly. After all, absolutely nothing happens unless the heaters, pins 7 and 8, are correctly connected. In every other orientation, the heater circuit is open and the tube is lifeless.
  
 I often roll ECC40 which have a rimlock base (picture below). The 8 pins are equidistant and the only way to be sure the tube is oriented correctly is to line up a small bump in the side of the tube with a corresponding mark on the adapter (ECC40 to 6SN7). Countless times I have inserted these tubes incorrectly and the only symptom is a lifeless tube. As soon as I realize the heaters are not connected, I pull it out and reinsert. Never any damage to the tube or the amp.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> Are you guys still interested in hearing how the Darkvoice sounds next to the Elise? I think I'm ready to discuss it.


 
  
 Yes, please!  Ready for the comparison, Shaffer...on the edge of my seat


----------



## Shaffer

As most know, the Darkvoice - as I understand, it translates into Chinese as Blackvoice - uses the same tubes as the Elise. The DV was introduced in 2005, best I can tell, and discontinued in 2009. The board inside my DV is marked with a 2009 production date; they must have stamped a bunch of these things in a total of three runs - DV336. DV336i, and DV336SE. AFAIK, all feature identical circuitry and parts compliment. 

Upon unpacking and installing the DV, before even turning it on, one immediately notices a plastic volume knob. I tend to harp on the knobs, because often they're the only point of tactile interaction with a component. We know the gear by its knob. As such, I immediately replaced the stock knob with a machined aluminum knob I had sitting around. Same size, silver instead of black, a world of difference in feel. The pot, itself, shows no sticky points, but it lacks the silky smoothness of the Elise. The desire shown by Feliks and Lukasz for minimalist styling is equally duplicated by the DV's designers' hope to fit as many ornate elements on a small faceplate as possible. Good thing it's black.

Other than the chassis's role, the Elise is cooled by convection. Air is drawn from the bottom - where the intake area is correctly configured as being larger than the exhaust - and exits from the top. The DV's chassis is perforated, as well, but lacks the engineering that allows for convection cooling. Its chassis features a 1/4" aluminum top that covers the entire amp, extending slightly past its sides, and acts as a heatsink. The Elise is heatsunk internally. Overall,_ the Elise runs a bit cooler_ than the DV with twice as many tubes. 

Before going further, one simply must discuss the DV's hum. From what I've gathered, it's a part of the circuit. Some driver tubes cause the amp to hum mercilessly. I'm talking as loud as a ground loop. There's a cure involving two small caps. The fact that a forum member could better the deign is bad enough, DV's refusal to modify its boards to include the mod shows the same lack of attention to detail as the plastic knob,and the non-engineered cooling scheme. As a result, unless one mods the amp himself, a large portion of 6SN7 will not be usable. I have not modified my DV, as the preferred driver tubes are silent. the DV responded to a 7N7 as well as the Elise, albeit with a less drastic sonic improvement. 

I burned in the DV for ~100 hours before listening attentively, along with its tube compliment: a Russian 6AS7G and a Sylvania tall bottle 7N7 (supposedly a Bad Boy in a loctal base). The tubes were initially chosen to match those in the Elise, as to not give it an unfair advantage. As things turned out, these tubes sounded very good to me in the long(er) run, so I kept them going. Yesterday's introduction of a tall bottle CBS/Hytron gives the 7N7 a run for its money, but I digress....

Where as the first thing I noticed about the Elise's presentation was its crystalline clarity and extension at the extremes of the spectrum, the first thing I heard with the DV was its overall sense of weight. Bass notes sound like a dropped anvil. The Elise shows bass texture and articulation at its forefront. While the DV's bass can't really be called loose, it lacks the Elise's finer properties. Bass weight is the only spot where the DV gives an Elise a run for its money.

The DV sounds frequency response-limited. A subjective range of 30-14K Hz. I'm being generous. The Elise, OTOH, has some of the deepest bass I ever heard from a tube amplifier and smooth, _extended _highs. As a result, the DV sounds less airy, more shut-in. The natural sound of the circuit, if you will, is a bit on the (err...) dark side. Sure, one can tune the amp for various degrees of tonality, but that underlying sound always remains. The Elise, OTOH, is always vivid, spacious, and fast.

To this day, I haven't heard a headphone that wasn't bettered by the Elise, regardless of its config. The DV is a bit more picky. It doesn't particularly like low-z cans, resulting in a sound that lacks foundation. Using the same HPs with the Elise, AD900x specifically, results in a more spacious, less peaky presentation with a (subjective) addition of an octave and a half of bass extension.

Transient response, the feature that gives an amp its sense of speed, is the DV's biggest failing. Leading edges are smeared. No matter what, the amp sounds like it's constantly trying to catch up to the music, rhythmically. This isn't to say that it sounds boring. It doesn't. It's just that after getting used to the Elise's instantaneous-sounding transient response, the DV's less fleshed-out nature becomes more evident. The same can be said for every aspect of reproduction; the DV does a fine job, but the Elise takes the same recording and extracts more information from it, presented in a non-fatiguing, yet not rolled-off manner.

I haven't owned many HP tube amplifiers. Next to the LDIII modified with 6SN7 output tubes, the DV is almost a full level above. Almost. Where as the LDIII kinda sounds light and airy, the DV is a hammer. No real finesse, but an engaging, powerful sound. I believe there's yet another, higher level of performance, and that's where the Elise lives. Using Stereophile's scale, the Elise would be Class-A and the DV would be a borderline Class-B, firm Class-C product.

I'm not a very good descriptive writer and I know there's a lot left out. If you're interested in something specific, please don't hesitate to ask.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> [...]
> And I very much doubt that anything bad would happen if you inserted the tube incorrectly. After all, *absolutely nothing happens unless the heaters, pins 7 and 8, are correctly connected*. In every other orientation, the heater circuit is open and the tube is lifeless.
> 
> [...]




Hmm...I didn't know that. Might give it a shot after all.


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> As most know, the Darkvoice - as I understand, it translates into Chinese as Blackvoice - uses the same tubes as the Elise. The DV was introduced in 2005, best I can tell, and discontinued in 2009. The board inside my DV is marked with a 2009 production date; they must have stamped a bunch of these things in a total of three runs - DV336. DV336i, and DV336SE. AFAIK, all feature identical circuitry and parts compliment.
> 
> Upon unpacking and installing the DV, before even turning it on, one immediately notices a plastic volume knob. I tend to harp on the knobs, because often they're the only point of tactile interaction with a component. We know the gear by its knob. As such, I immediately replaced the stock knob with a machined aluminum knob I had sitting around. Same size, silver instead of black, a world of difference in feel. The pot, itself, shows no sticky points, but it lacks the silky smoothness of the Elise. The desire shown by Feliks and Lukasz for minimalist styling is equally duplicated by the DV's designers' hope to fit as many ornate elements on a small faceplate as possible. Good thing it's black.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi 007.
  
 Not a good writer?...pretty darn' good review/comparison as far as I'm concerned!
  
 In fact I would urge you to merge this with your earlier impressions of the Elise (so as not to fall foul of the 'multiple posting' rules!!) and post as a separate formal review...I really hope that you do find the time to do so...
  
 Cheers,
  
 C J


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Not a good writer?...pretty darn' good review/comparison as far as I'm concerned!
> 
> In fact I would urge you to merge this with your earlier impressions of the Elise (so as not to fall foul of the 'multiple posting' rules!!) and post as a separate formal review...I really hope that you do find the time to do so...


 
  
 I agree with Hypnos1 here pretty good write-up Shaf! (Can I call you Shaf?)
  
 I would also be honored if you would add your review on the Elise to mine, also might me feel less lonely up there 
  
 Hope to see your review soon!


----------



## agnostic1er

Shaffer, I perfectly recognise my proper feelings about your listening characteristics of the Elise. Congrats!


----------



## agnostic1er

> Shaffer, I perfectly recognise my proper feelings about your listening characteristics of the Elise, even if not yet burned in. Congrats!


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 I think that you wrote a beautiful and clear review, and that you underestimate your abilities - very enjoyable and excellent!


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
*"I think it is safe to say that the C3g is a more resolving tube than the NR73. Very few tubes have the resolution of the C3g. So "detail" guys may want to look elsewhere. However, I am a "tone" guy. Tone always trumps detail for me. And so for example, I still prefer a Sylvania 6AS7W over either of the C3gs I have."*
  
 Thanks for the comparison. 
  
 I have pretty much decided that the C3g is my go to driver tube (until something better comes along?), and I am trying to pair it with power tubes that bring out more of the musicality (tonality?).
  
 Have some Sylvanias to try, even though I may have written about them before. It seems that the amp changed after the extended burn in of 150 hours, and for the better, of course.


----------



## Lord Raven

Guys is there anything good in this list? Also what about GE 6080 1975 unused, purchased in - 1975.

So far these tubes showed up. 

Lastly, I precisely remember Felix once said that DV sounds better than Elise, once. How did the impression change altogether? Hehe


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Lastly, I precisely remember Felix once said that DV sounds better than Elise, once. How did the impression change altogether? Hehe




I said that the DV does do _something _better than the Elise and left it at that. Clearly, after reading my comments, you now know that _something _was bass weight.


----------



## gibosi

lord raven said:


> Guys is there anything good in this list? Also what about GE 6080 1975 unused, purchased in - 1975.


 
  
 Since there are no pictures to allow a close examination of the actual tubes, all we have to go on is the box labeling.... 
  
 RCA 6080WA 
 Thomson-CFS 6080WA, probably, as they were made in France.
 Philips 6080WC, probably late Sylvania,
  
 The G.E.C and M.W.T. labeling is intriguing, but since they are alleged to have been manufactured in the US, likely nothing special. Good pictures would be very helpful....
  
 Also, GE 6080, manufactured in 1975: probably 6080WC. Nothing special, but not a bad tube.
  
 So if the price is right, you might be able to pick up 4 pairs: RCA, Thomson-CFS, Philips and GE, and maybe a few mystery tubes as well. 
  
 Cheers


----------



## mordy

HI LR,
  
 Concur with Gibosi. The most interesting names are the GEC and MWT (rebranded GEC). Ask if you can take pictures of the tubes - that will tell much more than the boxes that look like they are generic.
  
 Late Philips tubes are Sylvania tubes - quite good - listening to a set now.


----------



## Lorspeaker

shaffer said:


> As most know, the Darkvoice - as I understand, it translates into Chinese as Blackvoice -
> 
> Before going further, one simply must discuss the DV's hum. From what I've gathered, it's a part of the circuit. Some driver tubes cause the amp to hum mercilessly. I'm talking as loud as a ground loop. There's a cure involving two small caps. The fact that a forum member could better the deign is bad enough, DV's refusal to modify its boards to include the mod shows the same lack of attention to detail as the plastic knob,and the non-engineered cooling scheme. As a result, unless one mods the amp himself, a large portion of 6SN7 will not be usable. I have not modified my DV, as the preferred driver tubes are silent. the DV responded to a 7N7 as well as the Elise, albeit with a less drastic sonic improvement.
> 
> ...






I have a dozen of diff drivers n power tubes on my unmodded336se, none has hummed ,
cept the Russian Foton...whew.
Some tubes/combos offered diff speed, airiness, weight...didn't feel it can't soar in the upper freq...IMHO.
On low z cans like the denon d7k, this amp isn't the most composed on the lowest notes 
I can tweak the sound via powercords n interconnects too.

For 200bucks , A very enjoyable, seductive amp. It has it's place in the cost/value scale...
Of cos the Elise is classA


----------



## Shaffer

lorspeaker said:


> I have a dozen of diff drivers n power tubes on my unmodded336se, none has hummed ,
> cept the Russian Foton...whew.
> Some tubes/combos offered diff speed, airiness, weight...didn't feel it can't soar in the upper freq...IMHO.
> On low z cans like the denon d7k, this amp isn't the most composed on the lowest notes
> ...




We have another amp as a common point of reference - the Meier Concerto. I was curious as to what you thought of my comments, as a DV owner.

The DV people would probably say that their 337 offers a better comparison to the Elise. It's not an unfair observation. I considered buying a La Figaro, but just couldn't bring myself to dealing with the dual volume knobs. If there's one thing that will always stop me from considering a component, it's dual volume knobs. 

At its Massdrop price of ~$240 (shipped) or even $260 on Ebay, the DV offers an excellent value. No question. It's just that sonic improvements via ancillary options only take it so far; there's a limit to its scaling and it ramps up fairly quickly.

The hum is discussed throughout the DV tube threads; hence, the Fitz mod and the two caps. Only the driver hums, though some folks noticed a difference in the level of hum with a different output tube. Most folks said the hum went away the bulk of the time after anywhere from 24 hours and up of burn in. Personally, I've had more than half of my tubes hum - the drivers, I mean - and wasn't going to bother trying to make them work. The 7N7 (Sylvania-made tall and short), the CBS Hytron tall bottle, and the Baldwin are totally silent, as well as the coin bottom Wurlitzer RCA and that's all I really care about. For now. Which tubes have you preferred in yours?

Edit: text


----------



## Lorspeaker

Had the stagedac concerto combo once upon a time, ( distant memories)
Next to the cooler, more refined BCL, ithe meier combo sounded brighter, brasher, grittier...demands my attention each time I turned it on. 
I do like the crossfed features though on the stagedac, some music pieces, it was as if there is a STAGE infront, but not always...shruggs.


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> I said that the DV does do _something _better than the Elise and left it at that. Clearly, after reading my comments, you now know that _something _was bass weight.


 
 Glad I did not buy DV when I was looking for an amp, and I am not a bass head either..


----------



## JazzVinyl

Great job on the review/comparison, thank you!
  
 DV bass Weight...would you say that equals "one notey-ness" in the bass?


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> Great job on the review/comparison, thank you!
> 
> *DV bass Weight...would you say that equals "one notey-ness" in the bass?*




The DVs bass is fairly well articulated. Not as well as the Elise, nor does it go as deep. I didn't feel like I was listening to blurred, distorted bass that typically culminates in a one-note syndrome. It's fun bass, kinda like a pair of basshead headphones.

It's been very hot and humid here for the last few days, and I haven't had a chance to listen much. Last night, though, it got cool enough. Started with the DV shod with a Chatham 6AS7G and a Sylvania tall bottle 7N7, as the Elise was warning up. Listened to the point where I was asking myself why would anyone want more, and then switched to the Elise. It was as if a dirty film was peeled off a window and one could suddenly really see. The music was alive with color and texture, situated in a real space that changed its dimensions with a given recording. The Elise sounded like the singers were actually breathing, and not just another track in the mix. A remarkable amplifier. 

Thank you and everyone else for the kind words.


----------



## gibosi

The more I listen to this Mullard ECC31, the more I like it. The only negative thing I can say about it is that it puts on a rather pathetic light show! lol


----------



## Renderman

gibosi said:


> The more I listen to this Mullard ECC31, the more I like it. The only negative thing I can say about it is that it puts on a rather pathetic light show! lol


 
 You are quite right, the tube seems lifeless... nice picture but the hue seems way off... shouldn't it be something more like this?


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> The more I listen to this Mullard ECC31, the more I like it. The only negative thing I can say about it is that it puts on a rather pathetic light show! lol




I have a few of those. 7N7s look virtually dead, coin base Wurlizer has no light.I mean, a huge piece of glass and what looked like a bottom getter. I figured the thing could double as a headlight. No such luck.

Speaking of a light show, someone should pick up the last pair of Nanjing 6AS7G on ebay. A Chines tube from the mid-50s, manufactured soon after the commies took over, engineered by a man who spent a significant amount of time studying tube deign at RCA in the US. The tubes are robustly built, dead quiet, no sputtering or any other anomalies, and they don't sound too bad. Oh!, what a light show! Panty dropping.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nanjing-Antique-Tube-6H5C-6N5P-6AS7G-NEW-/220995111128


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> The tubes are robustly built, dead quiet, no sputtering or any other anomalies, and they don't sound too bad. Oh!, what a light show! Panty dropping.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nanjing-Antique-Tube-6H5C-6N5P-6AS7G-NEW-/220995111128


 
 Bought me a pair, really curious what they sound, and look like! Thanks for the hot tip Shaf!


----------



## agnostic1er

Hi guys,
  
 Not the promised complete review from my Elise/DH800 combo yet but wish to share a bit of my Elise burn-in journey:
  
 - first few hours (1 or 2): already on par with my SS diy amp; some differencies do exist but globaly sounds on par; yes, that's promising.
 - a few hours later (up to approx 10): things began to change: soundstage grows up, sound is less closed in.
 - approx 10 to 20: smoothness is here, I can listen to relatively high levels: no harshness occurs; bass is more defined; however a sort of dullness/duskiness does stay in.
 - approx 20 to 30: smoothness stays, dullness disapears. Dynamic grows up.
 - from 30 to...(I'm presently approx 35/40H): that's where inner details enter the game (mainly in the upper-mid/treble); colours are better rendered, contour/shape of notes are more accurate, bringing more naturalness.
  
 I don't think I'm dreaming up about these feelings... I believe they are real...
 What will be the next step in this matter? (50-100 hours)??


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Bought me a pair, really curious what they sound, and look like! Thanks for the hot tip Shaf!




I'd be curious to know what you think. Glad you got them!

Does anyone know how to read Tung-Sol's date codes? Picked up a single 6SN7GTB for the DV marked as 322KM3. I know that 322 is the manufacture's number and I assume KM3 is the date code.


----------



## Shaffer

agnostic1er said:


> [...]
> I don't think I'm dreaming up about these feelings... I believe they are real...
> What will be the next step in this matter? (50-100 hours)??




I'd say ~150 hours total. No, you're not imagining things. The sound is changing. Once the amp fully burns in, you're in for a real treat. 

Are you using stock tubes?


----------



## agnostic1er

shaffer said:


> I'd say ~150 hours total. No, you're not imagining things. The sound is changing. Once the amp fully burns in, you're in for a real treat.
> 
> Are you using stock tubes?


 
 150 hours!!! that's no more a burn-in that's attrition 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 Stock power ones, Jan Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA green label black base 1974 drivers, selected by Lukasz mainly in order to give my HD800 the right/wished tonal balance 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 Thanks for your reputation.


----------



## Shaffer

agnostic1er said:


> 150 hours!!! that's no more a burn-in that's attrition




LOL! 



> Stock power ones, [COLOR=444444]Jan Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA green label black base 1974 drivers[/COLOR],* selected by Lukasz mainly in order to give my HD800 the right/wished tonal balance*
> Thanks for your reputation.




A perfect example of the sort of service that comes with a handmade product. There's a world of difference between something (anything) made by an engineer who's passionate about his craft and proud of his work, and someone on an assembly line.


----------



## gibosi

renderman said:


> You are quite right, the tube seems lifeless... nice picture but the hue seems way off... shouldn't it be something more like this?


 
  
 Your rendering is indeed much better. I don't know why mine came out with a pinkish hue, but since I used a cell phone camera, I'm just happy it wasn't too blurry.


----------



## mordy

More 6080 tube rolling:
  

  
  
 This is a pair of Philips ECG 6080WC tubes from Dec 1981 and March 1983.  These tubes are not very expensive and easy to find, but they do not have the appeal of a tube from say 1942, Made in the dwindling twilight of the tube era, they just can't be anything special...or maybe this is not so?
  
 Compared to the reference Chatham 6AS7G: The Chats are the detail champions; refined, and every nuance in the music is distinct - perhaps too distinct and etched... The Philips 6080WC are not as detailed, but present a very homogeneous and sweet sound stage; more tonal than analytical, with more punch in the bass.
  
 It has been said that a portrait of a person where every facial detail is perfectly symmetrical does not look natural. For a portrait to come alive it needs to portray the almost imperceptible differences of one side of the face compared to the other - the imperfections have to show to make it look really natural.
  
 The same thing with these tubes (which have a curious fabric band outside the bottom of the glass envelope). They may lack a little in the micro detail, but overall are very natural, balanced and sweet sounding and engaging with a huge sound stage. These tubes are very easy to listen to and non fatiguing.
  
 Verdict: An inexpensive and worthy alternative to the best with a balanced, H U G E, warm and sweet sound stage.


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> More 6080 tube rolling:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hey Mordy, as soon as I saw these they reminded me a lot of a pair of Sylvania 6080WCs I have here! I took them out and they indeed look very similar to me. I'll go and take a picture of them now so you can compare. Maybe the Philips are made by Sylvania. I believe mine were made in '75.

 What do you think?


----------



## hypnos1

agnostic1er said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Not the promised complete review from my Elise/DH800 combo yet but wish to share a bit of my Elise burn-in journey:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Nice to have the gradual progression put down in black and white - well done a1er!
  
 As Shaffer says, just you wait 'til you get to 150+ hours!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







... the way so many different elements come together, as if by magic, is truly amazing for an amp of this price - or for one a great deal more expensive IMHO!
  
 Keep up the good work...


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 They look very similar - as far as I know Philips bought Sylvania at the end of the main tube era. However, the strange fabric band is missing at the bottom of the glass.
  
 The main thing is: How do they sound in your system? Please let us know.


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Hey Mordy, as soon as I saw these they reminded me a lot of a pair of Sylvania 6080WCs I have here! I took them out and they indeed look very similar to me. I'll go and take a picture of them now so you can compare. Maybe the Philips are made by Sylvania. I believe mine were made in '75.
> 
> 
> What do you think?




FWIW, I was thinking Sylvania as soon as I saw the tube, but it's not like I'm an expert in this field.


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> They look very similar - as far as I know Philips bought Sylvania at the end of the main tube era. However, the strange fabric band is missing at the bottom of the glass.
> 
> The main thing is: How do they sound in your system? Please let us know.


 
 I inspected the tubes closely and there seems to be something in between the tube and the metal socket, looks like it might be some kind of fabric.
  
 Will go ahead and drop the Sylvanias in the Elise, which driver tubes did you use? Maybe I have something similar here.


----------



## agnostic1er

Do 6080 need an adapter?


----------



## Renderman

agnostic1er said:


> Do 6080 need an adapter?


 
 No. With the newer Elises the sockets are flat with the top plate so an adapter is not needed.


----------



## agnostic1er

renderman said:


> No. With the newer Elises the sockets are flat with the top plate so an adapter is not needed.


 
 OK, thanks; I had a doubt regarding Feliks site which isn't updated on this matter.


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 I use the Siemens C3g tubes as drivers with adapters made by hypnos 1.


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> I use the Siemens C3g tubes as drivers with adapters made by hypnos 1.


 
 Then I certainly have something comparable I'll use my Lorenz C3gs with Hypnos1's adapters


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 Let the tubes roll LOL! The more I Iisten to this combo, the more I like it, Curious to hear your impression.


----------



## Lord Raven

Here comes a couple of noob questions  For speaker breakin, they have to be playing music, for amplifier breakin, can I just leave it on for over night  I don't think I can wait for 150 hours for magic to finally happy. Secondly, I did a little cable upgrade. Pulled out a decent desktop cable that had some nice specs etched on it compared to the supplied ghetto cable. Was it a good idea? Lastly, what is the smell around the tubes? I love it  I have a fear of breaking the tubes, I might build a plexi enclosure for this bad boy and might put a fan or something to keep it cool..


----------



## Lord Raven

Bravo 

 If I have to review my experience with Elise I would say, the Solid State experience that I achieved over the last 5 years of endless upgradation until I reached 3 way Active Focal Utopia system having 2 x Arc Audio competition grade amplifiers, limited edition Focal Dual Direct and 1.800 Mono Block amplifiers to create that warm airy deep and wide sound stage, Elise did it in just 50 hours.
  
 I am just missing the staging experience that can only be created if you listen to binaural recordings on headphones, which I don't have many. Maybe my headphones aren't capable enough, however, I have started to feel that headphones just vanish and I enjoy floating with the music. That's my 50 hours journey with Elise!
  
 Not to mention, I am not feeding it with a high end DAC or something, I wish I had some decent source at home. I wasn't ready for this kind of experience haha
  
 Quote:


agnostic1er said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Not the promised complete review from my Elise/DH800 combo yet but wish to share a bit of my Elise burn-in journey:
> 
> ...


----------



## Lord Raven

Honestly speaking, that guy is so lazy and he's keeping me hanging. I don't think he will help me out in tube hunting. He is kind of dumb too, doesn't know much but has tons of tubes. I should paste his warehouse pictures.
  
 I am still not sure what to get :/ I think as a last resort, I should just keep hunting the Chathams and call it a day in tube rolling world. It is driving me crazy, first it was the amp hunting, now it's tube hunting 
  
 I will just pass all of these, don't try to push me into the ocean of tubes gibosi 
  
 Quote:


gibosi said:


> Since there are no pictures to allow a close examination of the actual tubes, all we have to go on is the box labeling....
> 
> RCA 6080WA
> Thomson-CFS 6080WA, probably, as they were made in France.
> ...


----------



## mordy

Hi LR,
  
 The Elise sounds good right out of the box - u don't have to wait for magic. But it keeps on improving up to about 150 hours before reaching full potential.
  
 I don't have any expensive cables and/or speakers, but the sound is great anyhow. My music source is some 300 CDs put on my hard drive using iTunes, but now playing through Musicbee. When it comes to audio and tubes I don't think that great performance necessarily is connected to very expensive items. By buying judiciously you can get get great sound and great sounding tubes for modest amounts of money.
  
 Re the guy with all the tubes, you have to figure out how to get his cooperation - maybe sending somebody else in there to pick out those GEC/Osram/MWT A1834 tubes....
  
 On another note I notice that the Elise runs much cooler standing on my three 1" aluminum cones - I don't even seem to need the fans. Perhaps the socket savers for the two power tubes help as well. Now, with the two fans running, it is possible that the amp does not warm up enough with a possible degradation in sound. This is just a guess, but it seems to me that the amp did not sound as good being barely warm using the fans and the footers. Does anybody know if a tube amp needs an optimal operating temperature, or is cooler better?


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Here comes a couple of noob questions  For speaker breakin, they have to be playing music, for amplifier breakin, can I just leave it on for over night  * While I don't recommend this for others, my amp ran ~20 hours every day until I felt like it fully stabilized. * I don't think I can wait for 150 hours for magic to finally happy. Secondly, I did a little cable upgrade. Pulled out a decent desktop cable that had some nice specs etched on it compared to the supplied ghetto cable. Was it a good idea? *You mean a power cable? I'd suggest at least a 14awg. I use a purple Furutech cord on mine. Gotta be close to 1" thick. * Lastly, what is the smell around the tubes? I love it  I have a fear of breaking the tubes, I might build a plexi enclosure for this bad boy and might put a fan or something to keep it cool..  * What smell?*




...in bold.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Here comes a couple of noob questions
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 If I may interject here. I was not finished with my experiments on this but as it might help *agnostic1er, Lord Raven* and others I will go out on a limb and post my theory here.
  
 As Hypnos1 stated an amp can sound quite different when coming back to it after a while. It occurred to me it might well be the turning off (cooling down)/turning on (warming up) of the amp that burns it (and the tubes) in more quickly thus sounding different the next session. This stands to reason because tubes heating up quickly and/or frequently age quicker.
  
 I decided to try this for myself, turning my amplifier off and on over 35 times in a 24 hour period. Letting it heat up for 15 minutes or more, then turning it off again letting it cool down. I did not listen to the amp in this period. After this the Elise did sound quite different to my ears. Smoother, stronger bass. Hopefully I was not biased in this test tryng to prove my own theory.
  
 Maybe it can help *agnostic1er* and *Lord Raven *burn in their amps quicker. Hopefully you guys are willing to try this and see if you can replicate my results. I'm really curious about what you guys think!


----------



## Oskari

renderman said:


> I decided to try this for myself, turning my amplifier off and on over 35 times in a 24 hour period. Letting it heat up for 15 minutes or more, then turning it off again letting it cool down.


 
  
 I'd call that a stress test.


----------



## agnostic1er

renderman said:


> I decided to try this for myself, turning my amplifier off and on over 35 times in a 24 hour period. Letting it heat up for 15 minutes or more, then turning it off again letting it cool down. I did not listen to the amp in this period. After this the Elise did sound quite different to my ears. Smoother, stronger bass. Hopefully I was not biased in this test tryng to prove my own theory.
> 
> Maybe it can help *agnostic1er* and *Lord Raven *burn in their amps quicker....


 
 Hi Renderman,
  
 Turning your amp on and off several times in a short period could effectively help burn-in but it does also stress the tubes and shorten their life time. Ideally, one would first apply the heating voltage, wait a few tens of seconds or minutes that the space charge will be made and only then apply the high voltage. Unfortunately, this simple protocol (3-position switch or automatic timer made by a small auxiliary circuit) is very rarely offered, including Elise amp.


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> If I may interject here. I was not finished with my experiments on this but as it might help *agnostic1er, Lord Raven* and others I will go out on a limb and post my theory here.
> 
> As Hypnos1 stated an amp can sound quite different when coming back to it after a while. It occurred to me it might well be the turning off (cooling down)/turning on (warming up) of the amp that burns it (and the tubes) in more quickly thus sounding different the next session. This stands to reason because tubes heating up quickly and/or frequently age quicker.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi R.
  
 An interesting hypothesis...this sure is going to be a very difficult one to nail firmly, but I'm glad you feel _something_ at least is happening here...(unless we're both deluded, lol!!).
 My own experiences of this 'phenomenon' would seem to have occurred most noticeably just at certain stages of the burn-in process (but don't ask me _exactly_ when!!), but how much could be down to the multitude of components in the amp and how much to the tubes would be nigh on impossible to discern, I suspect.
  
 Still, perhaps a little more light may just one day be shed on this subject...from others with different ears, but at least an open mind lol!


----------



## Renderman

oskari said:


> I'd call that a stress test.


 
 In that case, test passed! The Elise didn't even flinch. Maybe I did also want to put her through her passes, because of.... previous experience.
  


agnostic1er said:


> Turning your amp on and off several times in a short period could effectively help burn-in but it does also stress the tubes and shorten their life time. Ideally, one would first apply the heating voltage, wait a few tens of seconds or minutes that the space charge will be made and only then apply the high voltage. Unfortunately, this simple protocol (3-position switch or automatic timer made by a small auxiliary circuit) is very rarely offered, including Elise amp.


 
 Of course it would stress the tubes, without at least a little stress on them there is no progress. View it as Tube Training, no pain, no gain! 
  


hypnos1 said:


> Hi R.
> 
> An interesting hypothesis...this sure is going to be a very difficult one to nail firmly, but I'm glad you feel _something_ at least is happening here...(unless we're both deluded, lol!!).
> My own experiences of this 'phenomenon' would seem to have occurred most noticeably just at certain stages of the burn-in process (but don't ask me _exactly_ when!!), but how much could be down to the multitude of components in the amp and how much to the tubes would be nigh on impossible to discern, I suspect.
> ...


 
  
 I do not think we are deluded H.! I still think that if someone wanted to burn in their amp and/or tubes in quicker this would be the way to do it. The Elise seems to be able to handle it. As I understand it their is at least circuitry in the Elise to gradually bring the heater current up so the tubes don't get stressed as much and help preserve their lifetime.
  
 On another note, I've been running mordy's combination of the C3gs with Philips (actually Sylvania) 6080WA tubes. Sounds pretty good.  There is some synergy going on here I think. The C3gs compensate somewhat for the lack of detail in the Sylvanias and the Sylvanias in turn add some more bass weight that the C3gs can use.
  
 Also just tonight bought some Sony MDR-R1s, for only 30 euros. Just to try it out and hear something different. Maybe just to have a reference 'mainstream' headphone.


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 Always feels good when somebody agrees with you LOL - speaking about the synergy of C3g and Syl/Philips 6080 tubes. I have a couple of pairs of different Sylvania tubes; will try them out as well.
  
 Now, the question to me is: How does this combination compare to the C3g - A1834 combo?


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> Always feels good when somebody agrees with you LOL - speaking about the synergy of C3g and Syl/Philips 6080 tubes. I have a couple of pairs of different Sylvania tubes; will try them out as well.
> 
> Now, the question to me is: How does this combination compare to the C3g - A1834 combo?


 
  
 Yo mordy, look forward to R's findings...
  
 Although I'd promised myself NO MORE SPENDING, gibosi's liking for the Mullard ECC31 (gibosi - please stop finding these things, lol!!) tempted me to splash out on a pair of NOS tubes...well, I _think_ I have a pair of Mullards - one _looks_ like it could be a rebranded one (QTL stamped)...if it ain't, I've spent a hell of a lot for an ordinary 6N7G!!).
  
 It sure will be interesting to see how they compare to my C3gSs...so now it's back to more adapter making! (they are available on ebay for not too much money, but I'm now addicted to pure silver/single-crystal copper/gold wire lol!!
  
 Shall also be seeing how a GEC 6080 pairs with a GEC CV2523 - hopefully they won't clash as your own experiment did - yet _another_ adapter needed alas (my amp, along with a few other first adopters, has the recessed sockets - mixed blessing!).


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Although I'd promised myself NO MORE SPENDING, gibosi's liking for the Mullard ECC31 (gibosi - please stop finding these things, lol!!) tempted me to splash out on a pair of NOS tubes...well, I _think_ I have a pair of Mullards - one _looks_ like it could be a rebranded one (QTL stamped)...if it ain't, I've spent a hell of a lot for an ordinary 6N7G!!).


 
  
 I had been looking at that QTL tube, wondering if it was a real Mullard, and soon I shall know! lol. And of course, I will be very interested to read your impressions of the ECC31.
  
 But so sorry.... I am always looking for new tubes to try.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> I had been looking at that QTL tube, wondering if it was a real Mullard, and soon I shall know! lol. And of course, I will be very interested to read your impressions of the ECC31.
> 
> But so sorry.... I am always looking for new tubes to try.


 
  
 Hi g...the fact that you were pondering that QTL gives me a bit more positive encouragement!...and reinforces my suspicions based upon 1. The overall proportions, including the base, seem to mirror the Mullards. 2. The plates look pretty well the same, especially with the rods running up the sides. 3. Came across another QTL tube on a thread somewhere that turned out to be a Mullard (tenuous I know, but just another _possible_ factor!). And lastly, it just 'SMELLS' a Brit tube!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
  
 So it's a case of fingers crossed that I got a good deal...and yes, soon _I_ too shall know lol!
  
 Fingers crossed also that with the Elise's drivers configured in _series_ and not parallel, plus heater/grid/gain/transconductance values all higher than the 6SN7, all will be OK...time will tell!...
  
 ps. With X00s (if not 000s by now!!) tubes in your arsenal, does retirement not appeal?! - your dedication and enthusiasm are truly commendable, mon ami...and a real asset to this community of ours.


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> Always feels good when somebody agrees with you LOL - speaking about the synergy of C3g and Syl/Philips 6080 tubes. I have a couple of pairs of different Sylvania tubes; will try them out as well.
> 
> Now, the question to me is: How does this combination compare to the C3g - A1834 combo?


 
  


hypnos1 said:


> Yo mordy, look forward to R's findings...


 
  
 Hi guys I know you are eager to read about my experience with these tubes but have been really busy lately, I tried to get as much time in with them as i could. It was not easy for me evaluating this combo!
  
 I tried them with different headphones and my speakers, the Sylvanias are certainly a bassy tube, more bass weight, good low end extension and full sounding bass. This to me sounded very good with the (to my ears ever so slightly bright) Beyerdynamic T1. The combo was okay with my AKG K7XX and filled the room with bass presence when using my speakers.
  
 Soundstage is nice, pretty big, mainly very wide. To me it sounds like the C3gs bring out a lot of the details but the Sylvanias do not convey all of this detail like the GECs do. To me the GECs are in a league of their own.
  
 All in all the Sylvania 6080WC is quite a good tube. This might not be for you if details are high on your list of priorities (although the C3gs do compensate for that somewhat) but if you like a smoother, softer, slightly bass heavy presentation with a good soundstage this just might be a good, not too expensive option.
  
 In the meanwhile... I also received the Philips 6080WA (Made by Mullard) today. Those will be replacing the Sylvanias now and I will report back soon 
  
 (Damn... I got the GECs but still have the tube rolling virus...)


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> ps. With X00s (if not 000s by now!!) tubes in your arsenal, does retirement not appeal?! - your dedication and enthusiasm are truly commendable, mon ami...and a real asset to this community of ours.


 
  
 Even in retirement, new discoveries and challenges beckon.... and I cannot resist! lol.
  
 It just seems that I keep stumbling across new tubes that appear to have good promise. At the moment, I have my sights on three, one of which is on its way to me as I write this...


----------



## CITIZENLIN

To lucky Elise owners, Did you get the tracking number prior to shipping from Feliks? I am on 7th weeks since the day I place the order. Waiting game and reading all tube rolling /impressions/ review are making me anxious.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hello Mordy, 

Bro, I would also like to know if a warmer/colder amp if good for better sound. There is no thermal protection on Elise, unlike solid state and that's for certain 

GEC/Osram/MWT A1834
Are these tubes super rare or readily available? What is the expected price? I've never bought tubes before, just like drugs haha 

You're right, I'm just playing via my phone with every enhancement off and it still shines like a diamond. 

Regards 
Lord Raven 




mordy said:


> Hi LR,
> 
> The Elise sounds good right out of the box - u don't have to wait for magic. But it keeps on improving up to about 150 hours before reaching full potential.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lord Raven

citizenlin said:


> To lucky Elise owners, Did you get the tracking number prior to shipping from Feliks? I am on 7th weeks since the day I place the order. Waiting game and reading all tube rolling /impressions/ review are making me anxious.




You should wish for free upgrades  I waited 2 months, the waiting time is doubled mainly cause they're also building other amplifiers not just Elise. I did not get it, is your Elise in transit? I got a tracking number.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Renderman, 

Thanks got the suggestion, I tried this today but I couldn't only do this couple of times. I have a lot of static in my body, if I frequently touch Elise then I get a spark which bugs me :/

Also, you had a sale thread, I lost the link to it. I wanted to ask if you had the most wanted Chatham 6AS7 tubes for sale?  I'm stuck, need these to go C3Gs route. 

Lastly, what is the life of these tubes I received with Elise? I read a lot of posts after yours that switching on and off might reduce the life. I'm confused now. 

Thanks 
LR



renderman said:


> If I may interject here. I was not finished with my experiments on this but as it might help *agnostic1er, Lord Raven* and others I will go out on a limb and post my theory here.
> 
> As Hypnos1 stated an amp can sound quite different when coming back to it after a while. It occurred to me it might well be the turning off (cooling down)/turning on (warming up) of the amp that burns it (and the tubes) in more quickly thus sounding different the next session. This stands to reason because tubes heating up quickly and/or frequently age quicker.
> 
> ...


----------



## CITIZENLIN

lord raven said:


> You should wish for free upgrades
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I am sure they are busy. Four to six weeks that what I was told. I was reading here that some of you get notification when the amp is in testing stage.  I don't think its in transit, if it was that would be great.   I should ask Lukasz for status,  Hahaha the waiting is killing me.


----------



## mordy

Hi LR,
  
 GEC/Osram/MWT/STS A1834.
  
 The GEC 6AS7 tube is considered to be the best power tube for the Elise by a lot of people. Unfortunately it is very expensive - I think that the going rate is in the range of $300-600 for a pair.
  
 The other names above are the same tube re-branded with different names on them: Osram, MWT,STS. A1834 is the same designation as 6AS7. There are times that a re-branded tube fetches less money because people are looking for the the most famous name, in this case GEC.
  
 These tubes seem to be rare as well.


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
*"the Sylvanias are certainly a bassy tube, more bass weight, good low end extension and full sounding bass. This to me sounded very good. Soundstage is nice, pretty big, mainly very wide. To me it sounds like the C3gs bring out a lot of the details but the Sylvanias do not convey all of this detail like the GECs do. *
*All in all the Sylvania 6080WC is quite a good tube. This might not be for you if details are high on your list of priorities (although the C3gs do compensate for that somewhat) but if you like a smoother, softer, slightly bass heavy presentation with a good soundstage this just might be a good, not too expensive option."*
  
 Wow! You are reading my mind with the only difference that I would be substituting the GEC for Chatham 6AS7 based on my own experience.
  
 Went back to the above mentioned Sylvania 6080WC which were my favorites in the Little Dot MKIII. However, in the Elise they sounded too bright, but the late production Philips EEC 6080 sounded just like the above description.
  
 Now I tried another variant: Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 tubes. These sound the same as the above description but a little more mellow - very good sounding tubes.
  
 Another plus with these Sylvania/Philips tubes are that they are very easy to listen to. There is a sweetness to the sound. The Chatham 6AS7G bring out more detail but less punch in the bass, BUT, they are somehow tiring to listen to.
  
 So if you don't want to spend the big bucks on the GEC A1834 (which I have not heard yet), and can't find the Chathams, by all means try a pair of the Sylvanias. You should be able to pick up a pair for $25 or less.


----------



## Shaffer

I've been spending time with my Violectric V200. It sounds dull and colorless next to the Elise. Kinda disappointing.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> I've been spending time with my Violectric V200. It sounds dull and colorless next to the Elise. Kinda disappointing.


 
 Ha! I had the same experience when trying the built in amplifier of my DAC, and that is not a bad one at all.


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> *Wow! You are reading my mind with the only difference that I would be substituting the GEC for Chatham 6AS7 based on my own experience.*
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes mordy, based on our and others experiences the GEC 6AS7G seem to be high on everyone's list. I think we can reach a consensus about tubes, maybe a 'best sounding power tube' poll would be a good idea! I for one would not hesitate recommending the GECs if anyone asked me for the best sounding power tubes.
  
 yes the sylvania/philips are easy to listen too, this is what i meant with smoother i think  If you like the sound of the Chatham, try the GECs, similar sound signature but not at all tiring!
  
 Will get back to you guys on the Philips 6080WA i'm trying now...


----------



## mordy

Here is a ranking chart of power tubes that I found on the 6AS7G tube rolling thread:
  

_*THE LIST*_
 I.a) GEC Curved Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523
 I.b) Western Electric 421A
 I.c) GEC Straight Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523

 II.a.i) Tung Sol 5998
 II.a.ii) Tung Sol 421A
 II.a.iii) Cetron/Tung Sol 7236
 II.b.i) Bendix 6080WB with slotted graphite cross columns
 II.b.ii) Bendix 6080WB with solid graphite cross columns
 II.b.iii) Bendix 6080WB with solid graphite columns
 II.c) Bendix 6080WB
 II.d) Mullard (Telefunken/Valvo/GEC) 6080WA CV2984
 II.e) Sylvania 7236

 III.a) Sylvania Gold Brand 6080
 III.b) Tung Sol Chatham 6AS7G
 III.c) RCA 6AS7G
 III.d) Tung Sol 6080 or 6080WA

 Tubes not included in this review:
 6H13/ECC230 (Various labels: Philips/Amperex/Svetlana/Winged-C)
 5998A
 6AS7GA
 Sylvania 6AS7G
 Any other 6080WA/WB/WC variant not listed
  
 It is possible that not all of these tubes are well matched to the Elise.
  
 But then I did not come across anybody using the C3g driver tubes yet (have read through half of the posts so far).


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Here is a ranking chart of power tubes that I found on the 6AS7G tube rolling thread:
> 
> 
> _*THE LIST*_
> ...


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 Yes, a very useful post indeed (apart from the dearth of 'other' 6080s!) - and the one that encouraged me to splash out on the GEC CV2523s a long while ago now in our Little Dot days...deep down I must have had a premonition the Elise would be born, and thus do them _proper_ justice lol!!
  
 And I'm afraid I think you will have a fruitless search on that thread for any mention of the C3g as drivers...it was a real leap in the dark when adapting them for the LDs (an even longer while ago!) - I couldn't find much info at all about them, apart from the encouraging words at jacmusic and the fact that yamamoto used the C3m in some of his fabulous amps.
  
 And to find they can work in the Elise, and pair even BETTER with the GECs than in the LD was more than I could ever have hoped for...made me a very happy chappie indeed!! (And am now not alone....anyone else going to join us? - you only live once!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Here is a ranking chart of power tubes that I found on the 6AS7G tube rolling thread:


 
  
 This list was originally posted by a Crack user on the Bottlehead forum:
  
 http://the-key.enix.org/~krystal/review-tube-bottlehead.html
  
 At one time, it had pictures, but sadly, they have since been removed.
  
 My take on this...
  
 I.a) GEC Straight and Curved Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523
 I.b) Western Electric 421A, Chatham/Tung Sol 5998, 2399, 421A
  
 I have both the curved and straight based GEC and I cannot tell the difference. Perhaps others can, but since I can't, I cannot in good conscious state that GEC 6AS7 with curved bases are better than those with straight bases. After all, the bases are put on after the bottles have been evacuated and sealed. And therefore, the color of the base and the shape of the base have absolutely nothing to do with the sound. In my opinion, it is likely that the shape of the base has more to do with the intended end user than anything else.
  
 Further, I sincerely doubt that the WE 421A sounds better than the 5998. I have four pairs of 5998 -- 1957, 1958, 1961 and 1968. Over the years, the construction is slightly different in all of these and sometimes I think I can hear a difference, but I certainly wouldn't claim that one pair is better than the other. In the end, I prefer the 1958s only because they seem to be a bit quieter than the others.
  
 And likewise, over the years the WE 421 reveals the same construction differences, so I suspect that not all WE 421A sound the same either. The only way to reliably know if the WE 421A is better than the 5998 is to compare a pair of each manufactured at the same time. So again, I am unwilling to go out on a limb and state that the WE are better than the TS/Chatham. And for sure, I would never encourage anyone to pay the outrageous prices these currently sell for....
  
 Further, both the GEC and the TS/Chatham are top notch tubes. In the end, I don't really think that either is better than the other sonically. It really depends on system synergy  However, as the 5998 has almost 3 times the gain of the GEC, it does tend to be a bit noisier. Further, the 5998 is not identical to the 6AS7, and therefore, while still sounding very good in a 6AS7 amp, it does not sound as good as it could with the proper bias. (My Glenn is one of the very few amps that can drive the 5998 properly). Because of these qualifications, I am comfortable in saying the GEC is the better tube in 6AS7-based amps such as the Elise. ON the other hand, the 5998s are usually considerably less money....
  
 II.a) Bendix 6080WB with slotted graphite cross columns
 II.b) GEC 6080
 II.c) Mullard 6080
 II.d) Cetron/Tung Sol 7236
  
 To my ears, at least, the Bendix are superior to the TS 7236. The Sylvania 7236 is quite a nice tube, but rather lacking in bass.
  
 "Mullard (Telefunken/Valvo/GEC) 6080WA CV2984"
  
 These are not all the same! Telefunken manufactured a 6080 in Ulm. Mullard manufactured a 6080 in Mitcham. (And this Mullard tube was often sold under other Philip's brands, such as Valvo, Amperex and Philips.) And finally, GEC manufactured a 6080 in Hammersmith.
  
 As one might expect, the GEC 6080 is very similar to the GEC 6AS7. And in my opinion, the GEC 6080 and the slotted Bendix 6080 are more or less equal, but different, with the GEC closer to the GEC 6AS7 and the Bendix closer to the 5998.
  
 The Mullard, to my ears, is a refined RCA, with similar warmth and better detail. And the Telefunken, again to my ears, is too thin, too bright and too airy, as is often the case with Telefunken tubes, IMHO. Sometimes you will see a GE 6080 relabeled as a Telefunken. While I think the GE is a better tube, one should not pay more to buy a GE with a Telefunken logo! lol 
  
 I have not spent a whole lot of time with the Category III tubes, but I think I can say that I don't disagree with the original reviewer. Moreover, I think all of them are better than the Telefunken. And I would probably add the Sylvania 7236 to Category III as well.
  
 Further, I have not spent enough time with the solid Bendix to rank it. But as best as I can recall it is very similar to the slotted Bendix, and better than any of the Category III tubes.
  
 Cheers
  
 Edit: A few additions and changes


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 What happened to category III? This is where I am rummaging - I happen to have the three first tubes listed in that category, and they all make me very happy. Am I missing a lot? Somehow I think that the C3g tubes make up for some of the shortcomings as compared to the first two categories, but I may be wrong...


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> What happened to category III? This is where I am rummaging - I happen to have the three first tubes listed in that category, and they all make me very happy. Am I missing a lot? Somehow I think that the C3g tubes make up for some of the shortcomings as compared to the first two categories, but I may be wrong...


 
  
 As I haven't spent much time with the Category III tubes, I do not feel confident in trying to rank them. But going on old impressions, I don't disagree with the original reviewer. And I have slightly revised my original posting to reflect this.


----------



## K4RL

citizenlin said:


> To lucky Elise owners, Did you get the tracking number prior to shipping from Feliks? I am on 7th weeks since the day I place the order. Waiting game and reading all tube rolling /impressions/ review are making me anxious.


 
 I ordered on June 10 and received my invoice on July 22 - a whole week after the promised 5 weeks wait. Apparently they are busier than anticipated, and it's starting to drive me crazy too 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Can't rush perfection, I suppose.


----------



## hypnos1

k4rl said:


> I ordered on June 10 and received my invoice on July 22 - a whole week after the promised 5 weeks wait. Apparently they are busier than anticipated, and it's starting to drive me crazy too
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Too right K4RL...I think you'll find the wait WELL worthwhile...er, no - I _know_ you will!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Hopefully your suffering is very nearly over, lol!
  
 Lukasz did tell me once that because of the complex nature of the build, they do not let 'junior' employees touch them - which, along with all the special custom work they do, makes it all the more understandable that there is such a wait...in fact it amazes me they can manage the jobs even in _this_ timeframe!
  
 Cheers!
 CJ


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> As I haven't spent much time with the Category III tubes, I do not feel confident in trying to rank them. But going on old impressions, I don't disagree with the original reviewer. And I have slightly revised my original posting to reflect this.




...showoff. 

Mordy, we're in Cat3 together. lol


----------



## agnostic1er

Hello guys,
  
 Somedody to explain me the ranking principle of the previous lists?
  
 Thanks!


----------



## Renderman

Quote:


gibosi said:


> I.a) GEC Straight and Curved Brown Base 6AS7G A1834 CV2523
> I.b) Western Electric 421A, Chatham/Tung Sol 5998, 2399, 421A
> 
> I have both the curved and straight based GEC and I cannot tell the difference. Perhaps others can, but since I can't, I cannot in good conscious state that GEC 6AS7 with curved bases are better than those with straight bases. After all, the bases are put on after the bottles have been evacuated and sealed. And therefore, the color of the base and the shape of the base have absolutely nothing to do with the sound. In my opinion, it is likely that the shape of the base has more to do with the intended end user than anything else.
> ...


 
  


agnostic1er said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> Somedody to explain me the ranking principle of the previous lists?
> 
> Thanks!


 
 The revised list as per gibosi's findings would be:
  
 Tier 1.
 1. GEC 6AS7G, A1834, CV2523 Straight and Curved Brown Base 
 2. Western Electric 421A, Chatham/Tung Sol 5998, 2399, 421A
  
 Tier 2.
 1. Bendix 6080WB with slotted graphite cross columns, GEC 6080, Mullard (Philips) 6080WA
  
 Tier 3.
 1. Tung Sol 7236, Sylvania 7236
 2. Sylvania (PhilipsECB) 6080WC
  
 Disclaimer; this is how I read it, if anyone would like to alter this list feel free. It would be awesome to get a consensus on a list of best sounding power tubes.
  
 I can personally agree with the list, and i concur with gibosi that the Mullard (Philips) 6080WA sound very good, close to the GEC 6AS7G but missing just a touch of refinement. Am listening to them right now, a very fine tube, very natural and neutral sounding.
  
 Hope this helps your understanding agnostic1er


----------



## agnostic1er

renderman said:


> The revised list as per gibosi's findings would be...
> 
> Hope this helps your understanding agnostic1er


 
 Yes, thanks Renderman!


----------



## gibosi

agnostic1er said:


> Somedody to explain me the ranking principle of the previous lists?


 
  
 It is important to remember that rankings are based on very subjective and personal opinions. Everyone has different ears and different gear. A tube that sounds great to one person may well sound just OK to another.
  
 So my advice is not to take any one person's rankings too seriously. After all, my ears and gear, my likes and dislikes, may very well be different than yours. In the end, the only way to learn which tubes are your favorites is to try them all! lol. Or at least, as many as your budget will allow. And then we hope that you will post your "rankings" here. 
  
 Cheers


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> I had been looking at that QTL tube, wondering if it was a real Mullard, and soon I shall know! lol. And of course, I will be very interested to read your impressions of the ECC31.
> 
> But so sorry.... I am always looking for new tubes to try.


 
  
 Hi g...EUREKA!...the Mullard arrived today (and a very impressive looking tube it is too!), and on close inspection the QTL branded one I think I can now safely say, with 99.99% confidence, must be a Mullard also - in addition to the other clues, the central copper rods also look to be identical. In fact the lovely brown, midi-sized base and slightly more translucent coating looks more like a $300 ECC32 on offer!!
  
 So, at last I think I've hit the 'rebrand' jackpot...and if they do indeed perform as well as the 32 -  which would appear to be a VERY sought-after tube - my $49 could just be the bargain of the century...perhaps! Can't wait to see how they perform - when #2 arrives that is, and I manage to get the adapters made!
  
 Cheers!


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi g...EUREKA!...the Mullard arrived today (and a very impressive looking tube it is too!), and on close inspection the QTL branded one I think I can now safely say, with 99.99% confidence, must be a Mullard also - in addition to the other clues, the central copper rods also look to be identical. In fact the lovely brown, midi-sized base and slightly more translucent coating looks more like a $300 ECC32 on offer!!
> 
> So, at last I think I've hit the 'rebrand' jackpot...and if they do indeed perform as well as the 32 -  which would appear to be a VERY sought-after tube - my $49 could just be the bargain of the century...perhaps! Can't wait to see how they perform - when #2 arrives that is, and I manage to get the adapters made!


 
  
 Great news! While the picture was lousy, it sure looked like a Mullard. Can you make out the production code? The pre-1955 code on mine is "1029.1 1MV", where "1029" seems to indicate ECC31 and the remaining digits likely indicate factory, date and perhaps batch, but I have no idea how to go about deciphering this code. And after 1955, Mullard adopted the Philips codes, with EM (ECC31) plus a numerical change code on the first line, and on the second line, B (Blackburn) plus year and month.
  
 And with a little bit of luck, it would be great if your second tube is of similar vintage. While I have no idea how an early 1940s ECC31 might compare to one from the mid 1950s, it is likely that they would sound somewhat different....
  
 To the best of my knowledge, the only difference between the ECC31 and ECC32 is below the bottom mica spacer. On the ECC31, the two cathodes are tied together with a small metal strap. However, as I don't have an ECC32 to closely compare, I can't be positive.....
  
 Anyway, what I find most noticeable about the ECC31 is the bass. It is almost as if a subwoofer has been added to my headphones! WoW!


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Anyway, what I find most noticeable about the ECC31 is the bass. It is almost as if a subwoofer has been added to my headphones! WoW!




...this got my attention.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> ...this got my attention.


 
  
 Yeah, for those HD800 owners who want more bass presence, the ECC31 could be a very good tube. 
  
 However, first we have to find out if the Elise can accommodate it. As the Elise uses two 6SN7 drivers, the circuitry is a bit more complex than my amp, which uses only one. I think it should be fine, but until H1 gets his adapters built, we can't be sure....


----------



## agnostic1er

gibosi said:


> It is important to remember that rankings are based on very subjective and personal opinions. Everyone has different ears and different gear. A tube that sounds great to one person may well sound just OK to another.
> 
> So my advice is not to take any one person's rankings too seriously. After all, my ears and gear, my likes and dislikes, may very well be different than yours. In the end, the only way to learn which tubes are your favorites is to try them all! lol. Or at least, as many as your budget will allow. And then we hope that you will post your "rankings" here.
> 
> Cheers


 
 Of course nobody has the same golden ears than mines 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 As I'm new in tube electronics (except my speaker-amp rogers e40a) and moreover as I never made tube rolling, it may be interesting to hear about tubes listening features at least about their basic tone balance...


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Great news! While the picture was lousy, it sure looked like a Mullard. Can you make out the production code? The pre-1955 code on mine is "1029.1 1MV", where "1029" seems to indicate ECC31 and the remaining digits likely indicate factory, date and perhaps batch, but I have no idea how to go about deciphering this code. And after 1955, Mullard adopted the Philips codes, with EM (ECC31) plus a numerical change code on the first line, and on the second line, B (Blackburn) plus year and month.
> 
> And with a little bit of luck, it would be great if your second tube is of similar vintage. While I have no idea how an early 1940s ECC31 might compare to one from the mid 1950s, it is likely that they would sound somewhat different....
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi g.
  
 Sorry if I misled you...the QTL is the one yet to arrive (from Moldova), so I was closely scrutinizing the (yes!) lousy picture...and the more I look at it the more I'm convinced it IS a Mullard...but very possibly a later one?
  
 The definite one I received has the code(1 - or is that an edge?) 029.1, and (1) MAA...so an oldie. Gonna be very interesting to see what (if any!) codes are on the QTL.
  

                                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                              

  
 Always nice to have all the original packaging/paperwork...


----------



## SonicTrance

Nice tubes there H1! I hope you're going to enjoy them I don't have the guts to try those 0,9A tubes in my MK6 because I can't get any answers from LD that it'd be safe  David posted on the LD forums that CV181's are compatible but not sure if he means the new production CV181's which are completely different tubes.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Mordy, Hi Renderman,
  
 I see there is a conflict between you guys on GEC power tubes.
  
 Just to mention, I am a detail freak, who loves to listen to music without tiring my ears. What is the best option?
  
 So far, if Sylvania are bass heavy I am most certain that they will tire my ears since I don't prefer bass that is dominating and overpowering.
  
 This chase is driving me crazy, GEC must be extinct in today's market for budget buyers like myself.
  
 I have almost pulled the trigger on Sylvania if these are as detailed as GEC and not tiring. I might cut down some on bass via EQ. Please suggest 
  
 Thanks for great review. I don't know how could mordy review on GEC when he does not have a tube haha
  
 Well, maybe it is possible cause I have been doing tube rolling in my head ever since and before I even received the Elise LOL
  
 Quote:


mordy said:


> Another plus with these Sylvania/Philips tubes are that they are very easy to listen to. There is a sweetness to the sound. The Chatham 6AS7G bring out more detail but less punch in the bass, BUT, they are somehow *tiring to listen to.*
> 
> So if you don't want to spend the big bucks on the GEC A1834 (which I have not heard yet), and can't find the Chathams, by all means try a pair of the Sylvanias. You should be able to pick up a pair for $25 or less.


 
  
  


renderman said:


> I tried them with different headphones and my speakers, the Sylvanias are certainly a bassy tube, more bass weight, good low end extension and full sounding bass. This to me sounded very good with the (to my ears ever so slightly bright) Beyerdynamic T1. The combo was okay with my AKG K7XX and filled the room with bass presence when using my speakers.
> 
> Soundstage is nice, pretty big, mainly very wide. To me it sounds like the C3gs bring out a lot of the details but the Sylvanias do not convey all of this detail like the GECs do. To me the GECs are in a league of their own.
> 
> ...


 
  


renderman said:


> yes the sylvania/philips are easy to listen too, this is what i meant with smoother i think  If you like the sound of the Chatham, try the GECs, similar sound signature but *not at all tiring!*
> 
> Will get back to you guys on the Philips 6080WA i'm trying now...


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


>


 
  
 Hi LR...mordy was referring to the Chatham 6AS7G, not the GEC - hope this clears things for you!


----------



## Lord Raven

hypnos1 said:


> Hi LR...mordy was referring to the Chatham 6AS7G, not the GEC - hope this clears things for you!


 
 Hello H1,
  
 LOL I am so tube high right now, that means GEC is top notch. I have to say, my pursuit for TS/Chatham just ended, can't afford anymore tiring tubes.
  
 So far, I am using Elise as a side table lamp at night, letting it burn in while I sleep (music still plays on HPs)  I have noticed that the tubes are more brighter than before haha


----------



## Lord Raven

Well, did I miss the driver tubes listing? I have known C3G Siemens and Lorenz for now, what else?
  
 I think I can be a Tier 2 or Tier 3 guy, soon.
  
 Edit: Thanks Renderman, the listing looks fine to me.
  


renderman said:


> The revised list as per gibosi's findings would be:
> 
> Tier 1.
> 1. GEC 6AS7G, A1834, CV2523 Straight and Curved Brown Base
> ...


----------



## agnostic1er

Lord Raven,
  
 Do you feel you get too much of a bass spl with your present combo?


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Sorry if I misled you...the QTL is the one yet to arrive (from Moldova), so I was closely scrutinizing the (yes!) lousy picture...and the more I look at it the more I'm convinced it IS a Mullard...but very possibly a later one?
> 
> The definite one I received has the code(1 - or is that an edge?) 029.1, and (1) MAA...so an oldie. Gonna be very interesting to see what (if any!) codes are on the QTL.


 
  
 I see... The QTL is still on its way from Moldova and so still a bit of a mystery...
  
 Anyway, I remember the listing for the one you just received. If I hadn't won the the auction for the pair I have, my plan was to buy this one, old and in it's original box.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> I see... The QTL is still on its way from *Moldova* and so still a bit of a mystery...
> 
> [...]




I was born in Moldova. Let me see if I can whisper a good word for you.


----------



## mordy

HI LR,
  
 I have not heard the GEC tubes, so I cannot personally review them. However, after comparing notes with other members on this forum, and confirming that their listening impressions are the same or very similar to mine, I would not hesitate to rely on their opinions.
  
 So it seems that the GEC 6AS7 is the King Of The Hill.
  
 However, nobody will say that you cannot derive great listening pleasure from other less expensive tubes in class II or III. Everybody has different taste and different equipment, and therefore different personal preferences.
  
 If you are looking for detail, the Chatham 6AS7G should be the best alternative, without breaking the bank.
  
 If you want overall very pleasant and smooth sound (having plenty of detail, but lacking the ultimate degree of detail), it seems that the Philips/Sylvania 6080 tubes would be a good and relatively inexpensive alternative.
  
 When I said that I found the Chatham tubes tiring, that is a personal opinion only - somebody else may thoroughly enjoy the exquisite detail.
  
 What it all boils down to is what you personally like - it may be that you will prefer something else than what is listed in category I. Some people like the Bendix 6080 the best, but the prices are very high.
  
 The Elise is such a high quality amp that even with the stock tubes it sounds great!


----------



## hypnos1

sonictrance said:


> Nice tubes there H1! I hope you're going to enjoy them I don't have the guts to try those 0,9A tubes in my MK6 because I can't get any answers from LD that it'd be safe  David posted on the LD forums that CV181's are compatible but not sure if he means the new production CV181's which are completely different tubes.


 
  
 Thanks - MisterX-...I hope so too...(I shall blame gibosi if not, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Yes, .9A is pushing things a bit, but the nice big trafo in the Elise looks to have a nice bit of room to spare! (Will still check with Lukasz however...but it's a bit late now!!).
  
 Shame you aren't sure about your MK6 - indeed, the Chinese CV181s aren't really CV181s...6SN7 spec...but I was fairly impressed with the PsVane TIIs, even if they aren't quite up there with the top-tier old 6SN7s.
  


gibosi said:


> I see... The QTL is still on its way from Moldova and so still a bit of a mystery...
> 
> Anyway, I remember the listing for the one you just received. If I hadn't won the the auction for the pair I have, my plan was to buy this one, old and in it's original box.


 
  
 Yes g, still a bit of, but hopefully no nasty surprises!
  
 I am however beginning to wonder if the one I received is in fact such a good deal...a. Gentle shaking produces a slight noise, and b. in my haste I didn't pay too much attention to the test readings, and I believe a new tube _Ia_ value should be closer to 9mA, rather than this tube's 5.8mA. Does this hint at a much shorter life perhaps? If so, I just might be having to return this one...(there are other NOS tubes for about the same price).
 Cheers!
  


shaffer said:


> I was born in Moldova. Let me see if I can whisper a good word for you.


 
  
 Well well 007...what a coincidence. What is Moldovan for PLEASE BE THE ONE!! ... (You might need to _shout_ rather than whisper, perhaps?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
 Ta...


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> I am however beginning to wonder if the one I received is in fact such a good deal...a. Gentle shaking produces a slight noise, and b. in my haste I didn't pay too much attention to the test readings, and I believe a new tube _Ia_ value should be closer to 9mA, rather than this tube's 5.8mA. Does this hint at a much shorter life perhaps? If so, I just might be having to return this one...(there are other NOS tubes for about the same price).
> Cheers!


 
  
 While I don't know for sure, I have been told that many testers do not have ECC31 on their list. And therefore, it might have been tested as a 6N7, which is similar but not the same. But again, I certainly don't know....


----------



## Lord Raven

agnostic1er said:


> Lord Raven,
> 
> Do you feel you get too much of a bass spl with your present combo?


 
 I only listen to Jazz music, I don't think I need much more bass than existing. I think it is just right.
  
 One interesting thing that I noticed is that, my HPs have a roll off at high frequencies, as per the datasheet and reviews, but I don't think I miss any of the upper range with Elise. Maybe I have never heard hi-end HPs before.


----------



## mordy

One of those days...
  
 Did it ever happen to you that the amp suddenly doesn't sound good? Last night everything I threw at in 6080 tubes didn't sound good - not satisfying - too little this and too much that...What i liked the day before didn't sound right today.
  
 This morning I put in the OEM Svetlana Winged C 6H13C tubes. RELIEF. Things started to sound better, and after 1/2 hour of warm-up the amp sounds the way it should.
  
 Why is it the the amp doesn't sound right sometimes? Supratentorial (Me)? Electric grid? RF interference?
  
 What do you think?
  
 Since Head-Fi does not have this word in their dictionary, I felt compelled to provide this definition:
  
_"Supratentorial_. A word used by doctors and nurses to imply that a patient's problems are all in their mind. The tentorium is a membrane just under the brain, so "_supratentorial_" refers to what is above that, namely the brain."


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> While I don't know for sure, I have been told that many testers do not have ECC31 on their list. And therefore, it might have been tested as a 6N7, which is similar but not the same. But again, I certainly don't know....


 
  
 So I might just be OK...perhaps lol!...thanks anyway, g. I suppose the only way I'm gonna know if it will be suitable is when the QTL arrives and I can see if there's any imbalance between the two - but with only 14 days' grace for return things look tight!! Ah well, such is life...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...(only hope the sockets I need for the adapters arrive soon as well!...).
  
 Gibosi, my friend, you have set me quite a task here methinks...but then we _have_ been down this road before with our LDs, n'est-ce pas?


----------



## gibosi

sonictrance said:


> Nice tubes there H1! I hope you're going to enjoy them I don't have the guts to try those 0,9A tubes in my MK6 because I can't get any answers from LD that it'd be safe  David posted on the LD forums that CV181's are compatible but not sure if he means the new production CV181's which are completely different tubes.


 
  
 Technically speaking, CV181 = ECC32. And I am sure David knows this.
  
  http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ecc32.html
  
 The modern tubes using this nomenclature are not real CV181. However, since their tubes have a similar coke-bottle shape and labeling them CV181 as is a bit more sexy, they stretch the truth (lie?) and label their 6SN7GT as a CV181.
  
 Of course, it is always better to be safe than sorry. But as the ECC32 is considered one of the very best 6SN7 alternatives, I would be very surprised if the MK6, like the Elise, was not designed to handle these tubes.
  
 Cheers


----------



## agnostic1er

mordy said:


> One of those days...
> 
> Did it ever happen to you that the amp suddenly doesn't sound good? Last night everything I threw at in 6080 tubes didn't sound good - not satisfying - too little this and too much that...What i liked the day before didn't sound right today.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes mordy, me and others have sometimes this same feeling; it's not the gears it's our brain.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> One of those days...
> 
> Did it ever happen to you that the amp suddenly doesn't sound good? Last night everything I threw at in 6080 tubes didn't sound good - not satisfying - too little this and too much that...What i liked the day before didn't sound right today.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi m.
  
 Have never had this (negative experience) to any extreme degree but yes, most likely to do with brain...more specifically _mood_, and of course the surprisingly different physical states/condition of our ears from hour to hour, let alone day to day! (which I have had to try very hard to discount in my discussions re the _opposite_ 'phenomenon', lol!).
  
 Fortunately, this is (or SHOULD be!) just a temporary state...good though the Svetlanas are, we simply canNOT have them ousting the wonderful Chathams!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> Technically speaking, CV181 = ECC32. And I am sure David knows this.
> 
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_ecc32.html
> 
> ...




Yes, he should know this. But when I asked him about it he only gave me the 2,5A power tube spec. Nothing about driver tube limitations. I've asked again but got no answer. I've seen a few people use the ECC32 with the mk6 though, but got no idea if there's been any damage, lol. 

And as the mk6 is based around the 6SL7 there's quite a jump to the ECC32 in current draw.


----------



## mordy

Hi H1,
  
_"good though the Svetlanas are, we simply canNOT have them ousting the wonderful Chathams!!"_
  
 Not to worry, the Svetlana 6H13C do not trounce the Chatham 6AS7G tubes. In your haste to come to the defense of the wonderful Chatham 6AS7 tubes you did not read my post carefully - I only mentioned 6080 tubes of which I have a pair of Chathams.....
  
_Last night everything I threw at it in *6080* tubes didn't sound good...._
  
 On another more serious note, I am now convinced that adding socket savers to the power tubes helps to cool off the amp. It seems that the hot running power tubes become insulated from the chassis by the socket savers with a concomitant lowering of the temperature of the amp. Yes, the amp gets a little warmer this way compared to running the fans, but it is still just slightly warm instead of being cool.
  
 I am not sure of this, but I think that the amp sounds better being slightly warm than cool to the touch.
  
 Another benefit is that the original sockets get much less wear from changing the tubes when using the socket savers.
  
 It is necessary to add that the cooling is also helped by the 1" footers I attached to the underside of the chassis - I assume that the air convection is improved.
  
 Cheers,


----------



## Oskari

mordy said:


> Did it ever happen to you that the amp suddenly doesn't sound good?


 
  
 Fatigue, sinusitis, whatever. It happens. There's always tomorrow.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi H1,
> 
> _"good though the Svetlanas are, we simply canNOT have them ousting the wonderful Chathams!!"_
> 
> ...


 
  
 Ah mordy, yes indeed...6080s. Most unlike me not to read carefully - I plead mitigation...the good lady is ill in bed, I'm afraid - but then I blame the poor gal for _everything_!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
 ps. Are the Chatham 6080s not supposed to be a very good tube also?...(bet you didn't throw in some GEC 6080s, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


gibosi said:


> While I don't know for sure, I have been told that many testers do not have ECC31 on their list. And therefore, it might have been tested as a 6N7, which is similar but not the same. But again, I certainly don't know....


 
  
 Things are looking up, g...you may well have been on the right track - had  a reply from the vendor (which on a Sunday and a Bank, ie Public, Holiday weekend is pretty darn' good!), and it would seem it is indeed down to the tester being used. According to their AVO spec sheets, 100% _Ia_ for the ECC31 is 6mA...and so 5.8mA is marvellous for an old tube really. And both triodes measure identical for this, as for gm (100%+). So on this score it could well be a home run!
  
 As there are no obvious loose bits inside the tube, hopefully the faint noise will not prove to be a problem - but of course I shan't know for sure until it's up and running. And at least they have offered a full refund if I'm not happy...can't say fairer than that.
  
 So I go to an early bed somewhat happier now (except no late night listening session for me tonight, alas...am suffering withdrawal symptoms already lol!).


----------



## mordy

The Chathams 6080 are quite good - they accentuate the highs and lows and have a hard hitting quality. Anyhow, everything is peaceful on the listening front with the Svetlanas doing duty with the C3gs.
  
 Awaiting reports on the ECC31 tubes - good luck!


----------



## gibosi

sonictrance said:


> And as the mk6 is based around the* 6SL7* there's quite a jump to the ECC32 in current draw.


 
  
 Since so many folks run 6SN7 in the MK6, I keep forgetting that it was actually designed to run 6SL7. And for sure, with ECC32 heaters drawing three times the current, one cannot assume that it is safe to run them....


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Gibosi, my friend, you have set me quite a task here methinks...but then we _have_ been down this road before with our LDs, n'est-ce pas?


 
  
 And of course, I deserve all the blame, littering this forum, as I do, with tube porn that I know full well some simply cannot resist! lol 
  
 And how about one more? This little treasure arrived in my mailbox this morning. 
  

  
 However, this is not quite what it seems... The current very high prices of the MOV/GEC B65 (around $400) keep this tube well out of my reach. But fortunately, I can run 12 volt tubes and the B36, identical to the B65 in every way but the heaters, is much more affordable.
  

  
 And I am very pleased to report that this little guy lights up and plays nicely with the GEC 6AS7.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> And of course, I deserve all the blame, littering this forum, as I do, with tube porn that I know full well some simply cannot resist! lol
> 
> And how about one more? This little treasure arrived in my mailbox this morning.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Oh dear, could you be tempting me once more g...before I've even got the ECC31s up and running? Have you no shame OR pity lol?!!
  
 But I have to admit to being much more impressed by the look of the 31s - I know that shouldn't influence us, but I just can't help it...somehow the ST bottles nearly always seem to end up stealing the show!
 So now you are going to HAVE to burn a good bit of midnight oil comparing (extensively!) these two...that'll teach you!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 CHEERS!
  
 EDIT...now if you want to REALLY impress me, you'll find a thyratron that WE can use - I want a REAL light show!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...(GOOD LUCK!!!)


----------



## hypnos1

Oh, by the way g...don't forget they both need to be compared (again, extensively!) with the C3g.... Better get yourself a sleeping bag by the Glenn, lol!!


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> And of course, I deserve all the blame, littering this forum, as I do, with tube porn that I know full well some simply cannot resist! lol
> 
> And how about one more? This little treasure arrived in my mailbox this morning.
> 
> ...


 
 Very nice gibosi! That voltage switch on the Glenn sure does come in handy i guess. I'm a little jealous here


----------



## SonicTrance

Have you guys seen this :http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1x-PAIR-OF-OSRAM-6SN7-B65-COATED-GLASS-METAL-BASE-made-in-UK-Audio-Tube-/201274005281?hash=item2edcdd9721
  
 At least he offers free shipping, lol


----------



## hypnos1

sonictrance said:


> Have you guys seen this :http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1x-PAIR-OF-OSRAM-6SN7-B65-COATED-GLASS-METAL-BASE-made-in-UK-Audio-Tube-/201274005281?hash=item2edcdd9721
> 
> At least he offers free shipping, lol


 
  
 HaHaHa...I think this one must take top honours for the most ridiculous listing for tubes EVER!!!...and why is it most such nonsense seems to come from lands further East?...and no apologies for the apologists, lol!!
  
 Utter BALDERDASH!!!


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> EDIT...now if you want to REALLY impress me, you'll find a thyratron that WE can use - I want a REAL light show!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I am pretty sure that thyratrons are Mordy's specialty, not mine.


----------



## hypnos1

Oh well...back down to Earth...
  
 A plea to echo Renderman's re. much-needed support/comments on his review of the Elise...PLEASE post your own findings (you lucky ones so far!) and give the amp - and the Feliks-Audio guys - the celebrity it deserves :
  
http://www.head-fi.org/products/feliks-audio-elise
  
 CHEERS!


----------



## mordy

I actually saw the $4000 pair on Ebay a week ago, but did not want to post it on the blog because it seemed so ridiculous. As far as thyratrons go, I use two of these to heat my house:
  




  
 Psst - want a good deal on a pair of Western Electric 300B tubes: A meager $8450.00 + $75 shipping. Sorry - already sold!
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-Rare-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-Engraved-300B-Vacuum-Tubes-NOS-/331595007091?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d349a4473&nma=true&si=UVAi36LmSLtbMTGqqKgiVDFQ8BE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557




  
 This is truly inexpensive - saw a pair last year go for $13,000 but on the other hand I think it came with free shipping.
  
  
 Hi Gibosi - how do the Marconis sound? I finally thought I got rid of the snake nest of wires for all the external adapters and power supplies, but if the Marconi 12V is a superlative tube I would have to make adapters with an external power supply and voltage regulator for the Elise (sigh)....- I enjoy the clean look (and I dust off the amp regularly LOL).


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> I actually saw the $4000 pair on Ebay a week ago, but did not want to post it on the blog because it seemed so ridiculous. As far as thyratrons go, I use two of these to heat my house:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Oh dear...I take it then, m, my poor Elise would indeed go up in smoke?...but what a way to go, lol!! (Did I actually say that? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 !).
  
 And oh dear a second time...so nonsense reigns closer to (your!) home then. Ah well, perhaps we too are moving closer to the edge of insanity!


----------



## JazzVinyl

citizenlin said:


> To lucky Elise owners, Did you get the tracking number prior to shipping from Feliks? I am on 7th weeks since the day I place the order. Waiting game and reading all tube rolling /impressions/ review are making me anxious.


 

 Hello Citizenlin...
  
 I am in your boat as well.  According to my calendar, I am overdue to a message saying my unit is "in testing"....
  
 Hoping to hear something ANY DAY NOW!!!
  
 Is Hypnos1 still willing to make pairs of C3gS adapters?  If so, I would like to get in the que for a pair, please.....
  
  
 .


----------



## Renderman

jazzvinyl said:


> Hello Citizenlin...
> 
> I am in your boat as well.  According to my calendar, I am overdue to a message saying my unit is "in testing"....
> 
> ...


 
 Hypnos1 just might have some ready made for you, just shoot him a PM if you are interested!


----------



## Lord Raven

Guys, another noob question(s) that I just noticed. The tube boxes came with numbers on them, at the customes or maybe at home I mixed them up. I did not know the slot numbers on th Elise, did it really matter that you put wrong numbers of tubes in their slots? 
  
 Also, why dose no body talk about driver tubes? I was recently looking at some Melz tubes on ebay, like 50$ per piece. How do they compare with C3G driver tubes?
  
 Regarding break in, I recently noticed, maybe 60 to 70 hours later, the highs are gone :O I don't feel much air, what is going on? Or is it temporary.
  
 I am burining the amp overnight with music playing, it gives a nice table lamp look haha I only listen to it while going to bed, sounded awesome upto 50 hours and then, where did the highs go? Maybve my headphones are dead after playing so much music. Besides, the volume number is at 90% while I am not listening and the amp is breaking in.


----------



## mordy

Hi LR,
  
 I found that listening with headphones any louder than 9-11 o'clock is way too loud for my ears. Do u mean to say that you turn up the volume to the max when burning in  tubes?
  
 The C3g is an excellent driver tube.  There are many other choices, especially in the 6SN7 tube family. Given that some of the early adopters of the Elise came from the Little Dot amps, where the C3g turned out to be one of the best drivers, it is not surprising that some people, including myself, are using them in the Elise.
  
 There are only a dozen or so Elises made so far, and as time goes on I am sure that many more driver tubes and driver/power tube combinations will be mentioned.
  
 Re putting the tubes in the wrong sockets, I leave that for Gibosi to answer re the Elise.


----------



## gibosi

lord raven said:


> Guys, another noob question(s) that I just noticed. The tube boxes came with numbers on them, at the customes or maybe at home I mixed them up. I did not know the slot numbers on th Elise, did it really matter that you put wrong numbers of tubes in their slots?


 
  
 It shouldn't hurt anything, but still, not a good idea...
  
 Generally, the bigger tubes, 6AS7, 5998, 6080, are output tubes and go in the rear sockets. The smaller tubes, C3g, 6SN7, 7N7, are driver tubes and go in the front sockets.


----------



## Lord Raven

gibosi said:


> It shouldn't hurt anything, but still, not a good idea...
> 
> Generally, the bigger tubes, 6AS7, 5998, 6080, are output tubes and go in the rear sockets. The smaller tubes, C3g, 6SN7, 7N7, are driver tubes and go in the front sockets.


 
 I meant something else 
  
 I put the drivers and power tubes in their sockets but I mixed their numbers. Like there were two of each and had marking on them. Does it matter if number 1 power tube is put into number 2 power socket. Same is the case with driver tubes?


----------



## gibosi

lord raven said:


> I meant something else
> 
> I put the drivers and power tubes in their sockets but I mixed their numbers. Like there were two of each and had marking on them. Does it matter if number 1 power tube is put into number 2 power socket. Same is the case with driver tubes?


 
  
 If I understand correctly.....
  
 Your power tubes should be identical, one for the right channel and one for the left. And therefore, it makes no difference which tube is put into which socket. The same goes for driver tubes.


----------



## Lord Raven

mordy said:


> Hi LR,
> 
> I found that listening with headphones any louder than 9-11 o'clock is way too loud for my ears. Do u mean to say that you turn up the volume to the max when burning in  tubes?
> 
> ...


 
 Hello Mordy,
  
 Bro, I listen to the knob at 50-60% volume but I feel that at 80-90% the volume is still bearable. My cans are 32 Ohms and I feel there isn't enough volume. Yes, I meant that I burn in Elise at 90% volume with HPs put away under the pillow 
  
 I am almost sold to the C3G adapters and Siemens/Lorenz tubes. I just wanted to know if there are any more findings and why don't people talk about drivers.
  
 I think Gibosi did not get my question  
  
 Lastly, where did my highs go? I am at around 70 to 80 hours of burn in and noticed it..


----------



## Lord Raven

gibosi said:


> If I understand correctly.....
> 
> Your power tubes should be identical, one for the right channel and one for the left. And therefore, it makes no difference which tube is put into which socket. The same goes for driver tubes.


 
 Thanks Gibosi 
  
 I got it, makes no difference. Don't know why did Lukasz mentioned numbers on the boxes. I asked this to help new members cause I almost messed up.


----------



## nephilim

The slot numbers are described in the Elise manual which can be downloaded from the website. Of course this doesn't help if the tubes themselves are mixed by someone.


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


> Thanks Gibosi
> 
> I got it, makes no difference. Don't know why did Lukasz mentioned numbers on the boxes. I asked this to help new members cause I almost messed up.


 
 Hi LR.
  
 Mine too were numbered for specific sockets...can only guess they were measured for best Left/Right balance, but considering I've mixed all sorts of tubes with no real discernible imbalance I suspect in practice very few people would notice the difference lol!!
  
 Treble is usually one of the main things to change over time - but normally to _improve_ any sharpness/harshness, and give a smoother more detailed presentation. Perhaps you have been used to _too much_ of this frequency range, and a period of 'adjustment' and/or re-education of the ears is needed?!!..Or, of course, you could be right in that you've killed your HPs!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


----------



## gibosi

lord raven said:


> Bro, I listen to the knob at 50-60% volume but I feel that at 80-90% the volume is still bearable. My cans are 32 Ohms and I feel there isn't enough volume. Yes, I meant that I burn in Elise at 90% volume with HPs put away under the pillow


 
  
 The Elise cannot drive 32 Ohms cans very well....  But this is true of almost all OTL amps...


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Yeah, for those HD800 owners who want more bass presence, the ECC31 could be a very good tube.
> 
> However, first we have to find out if the Elise can accommodate it. As the Elise uses two 6SN7 drivers, the circuitry is a bit more complex than my amp, which uses only one. I think it should be fine, but until H1 gets his adapters built, we can't be sure....


 
  
 Hi g...adapter built - and actually working!!...PHEW!...(wish you'd warned me about that initial flash we encountered in our past - nearly had a heart attack lol!).
  
 Anyway, I can report that not only can the Elise accommodate it, she LOVES it!  Actually, to be more precise she AND my C3gS in the left channel love it...and this is a NOS tube straight out of the box. Already I am VERY impressed and can't wait for the QTL to arrive.
  
 Obviously it's much too early to gain any real idea of their full potential in the Elise - to tell the truth I was just a little concerned about your comments re the bass...now with my silver/single-crystal/gold-clad adapters, the C3gSs give me all the bass I could ever really need. But a little more is no bad thing...so long as it's impeccably controlled and detailed...and already just the one ECC31 is giving me that bit more. I have a sneeking feeling that  - for me - this combo could well be my new end-game (for now!!).
  
 I shall, however, accept NO compromising of detail/separation/air/holographic stage/transient handling etc. etc. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...(but at the moment, as I continue to listen, I feel a BIG smile spreading...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
 And not only because of what I'm hearing, but also in wonderment at how on Earth the Feliks guys have come up with a machine that can produce this kind of result with a C3gS in the left channel (which is way off stock design) and an ECC31 in the right (which is closer, but still a good bit different to your basic 6SN7)...and without the slightest hint of imbalance/clash whatsoever...how is it done?!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 My heartfelt thanks go to you K for introducing this tube to us...especially as adapters are available on ebay for not a lot of money...all that's needed is to find a pair of tubes at a reasonable price...
  
 CHEERS!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps.  A couple of pics (plse excuse the prototype adapter...now I know all is well, I shall do my usual thing and dispense with the socket and attach the wires direct to the pins...always squeezes just a little bit more out of the glass wonders, lol!)...
  

  

  
 The ECC31 may not glow brightly, but the GECs more than make up for that...


----------



## K4RL

Just picked up Elise 0016 from the post office. No customs trouble and doesn't look like the package was opened, which is nice. Unfortunately my wife wants to, "eat dinner with me," so Ill have to wait to try it out :/

I also received a bottle cap in my box... Anybody else get one? I'll inspect the amp carefully tonight, but something like that could leave a nasty scratch during shipping.


----------



## Shaffer

K4RL, welcome. You'll love the amp! For the money, it's almost a gift.


----------



## Lord Raven

k4rl said:


> Just picked up Elise 0016 from the post office. No customs trouble and doesn't look like the package was opened, which is nice. Unfortunately my wife wants to, "eat dinner with me," so Ill have to wait to try it out :/
> 
> I also received a bottle cap in my box... Anybody else get one? I'll inspect the amp carefully tonight, but something like that could leave a nasty scratch during shipping.


 
 Congratulations and welcome to the club  
  
 Don't worry about the cap, you got the un-opened and un-taxed Elise. Mine was thrown on the floor and un-boxed in the most humiliating way at the customs. 
  
 Enjoy!!!!


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi g...adapter built - and actually working!!...PHEW!...(wish you'd warned me about that initial flash we encountered in our past - nearly had a heart attack lol!).
> 
> I shall, however, accept NO compromising of detail/separation/air/holographic stage/transient handling etc. etc.
> 
> ...


 
  
 It is very good news that the ECC31 will work in the Elise with the standard eBay adapters! Well done!  
  
 However, in terms of sonics, I sincerely doubt that the ECC31 will match the C3g in terms of resolution. But it may well have other attributes that still might seduce you. 
  
 And in between classes, coursework and tests, I have been trying to spend some time with the MOV/GEC B36. And while I have not been able to make any comparisons, my ears tell me that it is a terrific tube.


----------



## agnostic1er

*Review: Feliks audio Elise (stock Svetlanas nos 6as7g power tubes, jan Sylvanias nos 6sn7wgta drivers, selected and chose by Luzasz) on  Sennheiser hd800 *
  
 First of all:
*About my HP setup:*
 - Elise has now full break in (100/110 hours); I feel after some 60/70 hours of running sound didn't change any more
 - another head-amp: a diy SS one, with added 41ohm resistances at the output to perfectly match the hd800 impedance (I tested R values from 6.8 to 100ohms)
 - main source: CDplayer Teac PD501HR; not a high-end gear but very neutral, detailed, with a wide bandwidth
 - interconnect: DIY pure single stranded silver wire, silver plated RCA plugs
 - stock hd800 cable
*About the hd800:*
 I regard its only flaws being
 - a bit too much rolled off sub-bass range but only vs bass champions HP
 - the well-known 6kHz peak:  a light personal anaxilus mod on my hd800 reduces somewhat this peak without rolling off the upper treble too much; it is made of open cell foam + thin felt, thus something a bit different than the classical closed cell foam felt; I tested around twenty materials/shapes _ with and without measures _before staying at the open cell foam ring + felt sticked only on the center metal ring. In my experience any mod does nibble transparency, one must find the one that nibble the less. For the purpose of this review I listened at my hd800 with and without the mod
 - a rather lean/rising global sound, resulting in a loss of flesh and presence; the mod nicely adds weight to the sound, that's intrinsically important... but also because it makes the HP more forgiving to dry recordings
 Otherwise a faultless HP with pin point imaging, wide soundstages and clean clean clean overall sound; just a few words for those regarding  its " too large of a soundstage width": listen to   monophonic tracks to realize it doesn't lie in this area.
*About me*:
 - my long time main hobby is to design passive filtered hifi speakers. So I'm certainly more objectivist than subjectivist; however I know that measurements do obviously not say the last word in audio.
 - I prefer searching for emotion inside the recordings; I hate redounding colorations coming from some gears even if they are allowing presumed improved euphony
 - to my ears, the most important things are, besides all other qualities, transparency, tonal balance and lack of harshness.
 - I listen to many sorts of music/songs, from Gregorian to Asian underground but almost never to symphony and opera; I simply don't like them except sometimes in live events
 And don't forget: what follows are my own feelings, related to my own setup and with the tubes in use; as sound's characteristics depiction is inevitably a matter of relativity, I used my SS headamp for direct comparisons and my memory for what I heard from Rudistor RP8, DNA sonett2 and Audiovalve RKV MK2, all gears listened on my hd800 a few months ago; though never heard hugely priced head-amps
*Let's go:*
* analytic impressions:*
 - sub-bass: no doubt they are there; nevertheless ideally I feel this range could have a tad more spl; however it's not of great importance as music does rarely contain such frequencies; though I regard this range being remarkable coming from a tube amp
 -bass: music stands on a firm base: this range is powerful and solid, well damped; texture is present when recording asks for
 - upper bass: same as bass, but slightly forward though not at all boomy nor on the border of boominess. I prefer this than the opposite because it gives some mellowness to music; please read "mellow", not "muddy". So I would say that the global bass-range is at the same time round and solid... may be paradoxical but that's how I feel it
 - low-mid to upper-mid: accurate and detailed, rich, fluid, no more no less than perfect to my ears
 - low-treble: fully detailed and solid but at the same time surprisingly sweet;  transition with the upper-mid is tonally perfect
 - treble: sometimes some sibilance does yet occur on stock hd800 but not in a metallic/artificial way of sound; just a matter of spl at 6kHz. With my mod this range becomes simply accurate, no haze at all but more smoothness, without lowering its sharp-cutting edge
 - upper treble: very extended and pure; the little loss in this range with the mod in place is obvious but this drawback is of less importance vs its benefit; however it shows up how transparent Elise is
 - dynamic: Elise has largely enough power to listen to the hd800 at high spl levels without any stress
 - transients and damping: admirable! even more admirable is that they are equally distributed on the entire bandwidth
 - Finally, the noise: what noise? connected to my burnished CDplayer but without running a CD, volume up to the max (5,5 o'clock) the amp is ABSOLUTLY quiet; that's so special!!
  
*listening impressions:*
 - a nice tonal balance with stock hd800 at low, average and high listening levels; the intrinsic lean/rising nature of the hd800's sound is here rather compensated by the strong bass range and the smoothness of the upper range; mod in place the tonal balance becomes quite perfect to my ears on the vast majority of my CD collection whatever the spl listened at
 - rendered details and inner details allowing to perfectly hear undertones and slight subtleties. Each sound is related to the other in a beautiful "oneness", i.e. the decay of reverberations is perfect, enhancing their presence and substance; combined to the ultra fast transients and absence of noise, the outline of notes and the verity of tones benefit of course from this feature
 - an astonishing absence of harshness, even at high listening levels. Long term listening isn't a problem: I sometimes happen to fall asleep while listening even at comfortable levels. Poor recorded tracks are more listenable than on my SS amp and my modified hd800 on Elise is now able to reproduce all types of music with never ending pleasure
 - the wide soundstages and pin point imaging of the hd800 are even enhanced by the accuracy and silence of the Elise; some not very audible notes coming from a deep soundstage are quite perfectly heard and magically pictured
 Another proof Elise is a top notch amp: the gap between poor and well recorded CDs is so vast that I needed more of a reasonable time to down on its right listening features
*In short: it's stunning to hear such potency, speed and refinement at the same time; in this meaning recorded music gets closer to live music because Elise allows to immerge deeply inside the core of music without any drawback... isn't  what we name "naturalness"?*
 Elise's price does absolutely not reflect its huge qualities. Ices on the cake: a marvelous sober design, a faultless finish and a great tuning potential through tube rolling. Thanks and congratulations to Feliks team!
  
 Side notes:
 - standard Sovtek 6H8C drivers sound decent, restrained frequency range but not harsh
 - I hoped a nice sound from Nos Jan CLRV 6SN7 WGTA drivers (from C.G.E. _General Electric,_ made  in Canada): well, all the bandwidth is OK but without the refinement of the Sylvanias and sadly a HUGELY sibilant/harsh treble even on modified hd800


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> It is very good news that the ECC31 will work in the Elise with the standard eBay adapters! Well done!
> 
> However, in terms of sonics, I sincerely doubt that the ECC31 will match the C3g in terms of resolution. But it may well have other attributes that still might seduce you.
> 
> And in between classes, coursework and tests, I have been trying to spend some time with the MOV/GEC B36. And while I have not been able to make any comparisons, my ears tell me that it is a terrific tube.


 
  
 Yes indeed,g, I have a feeling the ECC31 is no match for the C3g's resolution - you said before 'few' tubes can...I suspect they are EXTREMELY few lol! (and certainly none anywhere near the price). The detail they can extract is quite phenomenal - and I use the word advisedly, not as OTT hype. And as you well know, I AM a detail freak...I love to hear everything the recording engineer has managed to capture - warts and all (and boy, are there a lot of warts sometimes!!).
  
 But as, thankfully, the Brit and the German have already fallen in love (even though the Brits outnumber 3 to 1, of course!!) and the Elise amazingly blesses said union, I think I may well be able to have the best of both worlds - the ECC31 does indeed bring slightly more 'lush' mids and an extra dose of bass, but at the cost of a tad note decay, especially in the treble (where the C3g excels). With a few more hours now in this marriage, I'm happy to report the complete absence of argument/tiff/difference of opinion/sulking/ABUSE...is this too good to be true?!!
  
 And as if this isn't cause enough for celebration, postie has just delivered a packet from Moldova..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... (Shaffer, your whispering worked!) and an interesting tube it is indeed...
 obviously a lovely Mullard but with translucent coating, not opaque; top mica 'starred' support to glass instead of 'mouse ears'; bottom mica rectangular instead of round; bottom D getter, and no codes. So presumably a later incarnation...
  
 Anyway, now I've got to get a move on and do my permanent job on #1 so I can see just what two 31s do compared to the mixed marriage...should be very interesting...
  
 Oh happy, happy day! (apart from the good lady still ill in bed)...
  
 Ooops...nearly forgot the QTL photos...
  

                                                                                                           Edit...an interesting (old) thread on its ECC32 sister : http://www.head-fi.org/t/536785/ecc32-tube-addicts


----------



## hypnos1

Hi a1er...just have to say what a wonderful and thorough review...CHEERS!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...All I can say is with the ECC31/GEC 6AS7G combo in place you would be slavering like a German Shepherd dog diving into a large bowl of tripe (still have nightmares about that!...but HE sure was loving it, lol!!)...
  
 WELL DONE!...the Feliks guys will really appreciate this review, along with the others already in the bag (as do _*I*_...). Thanks.
  
 CJ


----------



## agnostic1er

hypnos1 said:


> Hi a1er...just have to say what a wonderful and thorough review...CHEERS!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks H1!
  
 and 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 about the German shepherd dog... Unfortunately GEC are pricey...


----------



## CITIZENLIN

jazzvinyl said:


> Hello Citizenlin...
> 
> I am in your boat as well.  According to my calendar, I am overdue to a message saying my unit is "in testing"....
> 
> ...


 
 Hello Jazzv
  
 I just received email from Lukasz. My order is going into TESTING this week.


----------



## JazzVinyl

citizenlin said:


> Hello Jazzv
> 
> I just received email from Lukasz. My order is going into TESTING this week.


 
  
 Very Good!
  
 I hope I get a similar email, very soon 
  
 .


----------



## hypnos1

GOOD NEWS Citizenlin....so not too long now...hopefully!
  
 Update on the QTL ECC31...
  
 Things are getting even more interesting : this version, even straight out of the box, is matching the C3gS's treble note decay/extension a bit more than the first, without sacrificing the extra mids and bass, and hence giving back more of the C3g air/spaciousness...NICE! (Which has me wondering - probably completely wrongly! - whether GEC & Mullard had a secret code for tubes that measured higher in certain parameters (like the 'S' in Siemens tubes) - ie. BROWN bases for the 'S' specials, instead of BLACK!!...certainly the brown bakelite _looks_ much nicer...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





..as does the translucent glass coating). And the best GEC/Osram 6AS7G variants nearly always seem to have the BROWN...perhaps, perhaps?!
  
 A couple of hours into burn-in and this 2nd tube _definitely_ has the edge over the first...and for a relative song (thank Heavens for a lousy ebay picture!!) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Oh even happier day...


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Update on the QTL ECC31...
> 
> Things are getting even more interesting : this version, even straight out of the box, is matching the C3gS's treble note decay/extension a bit more than the first, without sacrificing the extra mids and bass, and hence giving back more of the C3g air/spaciousness...NICE! (Which has me wondering - probably completely wrongly! - whether GEC & Mullard had a secret code for tubes that measured higher in certain parameters (like the 'S' in Siemens tubes) - ie. BROWN bases for the 'S' specials, instead of BLACK!!...certainly the brown bakelite _looks_ much nicer...
> 
> ...


 
  
 The differences you are hearing are more likely due to construction... 
  
 Your first ECC31 was manufactured in the 1940's and the second in the 1950's. The differences in construction are very noticeable, and not surprisingly, they sound different.
  
 To the best of my knowledge, the brown miconal base, due to its composition, provided better RF shielding and extremely good dc resistance, but was more difficult to mold and thus more expensive. You often find these bases on tubes destined for use in very demanding operating environments, such as the military and industry. However, given that our amps operate in relatively comfortable and quiet settings, the more common black phenolic base is more than adequate.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> The differences you are hearing are more likely due to construction...
> 
> Your first ECC31 was manufactured in the 1940's and the second in the 1950's. The differences in construction are very noticeable, and not surprisingly, they sound different.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, the brown miconal base, due to its composition, provided better RF shielding and extremely good dc resistance, but was more difficult to mold and thus more expensive. You often find these bases on tubes destined for use in very demanding operating environments, such as the military and industry. However, given that our amps operate in relatively comfortable and quiet settings, the more common black phenolic base is more than adequate.


 
  
 So, g, no conspiracy theory lol?!.. at least the brown base has a _certain_ positive significance. Thanks for the info.
  
 For me anyway, this appears to be a case where - unlike the norm -  the earlier tube may not in fact be the better one...but of course the usual caveats of preference/gear come into play here. But at the moment I can't notice anything _missing_ from the earlier one as a price for the _gains_...but it's still early days...
  
 Oh, and by the way, this later one doesn't have the 'flash' on startup...
  
 The higher current draw does (obviously!) have the trafo getting somewhat hotter, and that's with just one running with the C3gS. So with two - which I have yet to try - I don't think I would want to run the amp for anything over 5 hours at a time, or thereabouts...certainly no 10+ hrs burn-in sessions!! But as I 'm now pretty sure I will be staying with the C3gS/'50s ECC31 combo I don't have any worries at all about the Elise's ability to handle this tube.
  
 With another few hours on this tube, things are getting better and better...this is truly a marriage made in Heaven LOL...
  
 Thanks once more for throwing this tube into the ring...good one, g!
  
 CHEERS...


----------



## Renderman

Just a little teaser...


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> For me anyway, this appears to be a case where - unlike the norm -  the earlier tube may not in fact be the better one...but of course the usual caveats of preference/gear come into play here. But at the moment I can't notice anything _missing_ from the earlier one as a price for the _gains_...but it's still early days...
> 
> Thanks once more for throwing this tube into the ring...good one, g!


 
  
 I too am very pleased that the ECC31 sounds as good as it does. And I have to admit, I am now very curious to try a 1950's-era ECC31 to see how it compares to the older WWII-era ones.
  
 Cheers


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> I too am very pleased that the ECC31 sounds as good as it does. And I have to admit, I am now very curious to try a 1950's-era ECC31 to see how it compares to the older WWII-era ones.
> 
> Cheers


 
  
 I do hope the extra treble suits you, mon ami!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now a message to ALL...
  
 Lukasz has just informed me they cannot _officially_ OK use of the ECC31, it not being a straight one-for-one replacement...so anyone wishing to give them a try must do so at their own risk. I advise you to let ME give this tube a good long testing before taking the plunge. So stay tuned!!
  
 ps. C'mon R...give us the the full CV# - 280?...!!


----------



## Renderman

Hey H, Congratz on your ECC31's would love to hear your findings on them.
  
 These are the tubes:


----------



## gibosi

CV2821 = ECC33! WoW! I would love to hear those! 
  
 Anyway, before the recent arrival of the ECC31 and the B36, I had been having a rather wonderful love affair with the National Union 6F8G. Now that I have spent some time with these new tubes, I thought I should go back to the NU to see if I still loved her. lol. 
  
 And the answer is yes, at least in comparison with the B36. The NU is just a tad bit warmer, with more body and fullness in the upper bass and lower midrange. The B36 is a terrific tube, but to my ears and gear, the NU sounds better.
  
 Hope to find some time this weekend to compare the NU directly with the ECC31.
  
 1942 NU rebranded as a Philco (note the round plates) and a 1952 MOV/GEC B36


----------



## K4RL

I kicked my Crack off my desk tonight to make room for the Elise. I was going to post a pic, but it looks like my account doesn't have permission to post pictures yet? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Anyway, I can already hear some differences fresh out of the box. It'll surely take a while to really put my finger on it, but I'm clearly hearing little things here and there that I hadn't heard before with the Crack. I think the Elise is missing some of the "thickness" that the Crack provides, but it's a difference that could easily be resolved by burning in the new Elise tubes. Interestingly, I've been sticking these same winged 'C' tubes in my Crack for a couple years, so it should make for a fair-ish comparison. 
  
 Also, my power indicator on the front is a very dim, orange LED instead of the white ones I've seen in this thread. I like how unobtrusive it is (i.e. opposite of schiit gear), plus it even matches the orange glow of the tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

Once your Elise fully burns in, it'll be interesting to hear how it compares to the Crack. Looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## Shaffer

Aside from the usual, do we have other options for output tubes?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Aside from the usual, do we have other options for output tubes?


 
  
 I am not aware of any others....


----------



## mordy

Hi K4RL,
  
 The only orange indicator light on my Elise is the on/off switch in the back which for some reason is illuminated. The front panel has a little blue LED, thankfully not bright but unobtrusive.


----------



## nephilim

Oh, so you got the orange led on the front panel? I asked Lukasz for a dim red or orange led but he replied it would be difficult and therefore unlikely to realize. I usually listen in the late evening hours and put something in front of the little yet blinding blue light. This is disappointing


----------



## mordy

Hi agnostic1er,
  
 First I would like to congratulate you on your thorough review - well done! The only point I disagree on is that the Elise continues to break in even after 100-110 hours. In my case I felt it had reached its peak first after some 150 hours.
  
 All the best,


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Hi agnostic1er,
> 
> First I would like to congratulate you on your thorough review - well done! The only point I disagree on is that the Elise continues to break in even after 100-110 hours. In my case I felt it had reached its peak first after some 150 hours.
> 
> All the best,


 
 I agree mordy, the sweet spot for the Elise is around 150 hours, then again, your milage may vary.
  
 Post your review at http://www.head-fi.org/products/feliks-audio-elise agnostic1er, should help some members looking to buy an amplifier.


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> CV2821 = ECC33! WoW! I would love to hear those!




Me too, and I'm going to, as Renderman was kind enough to get these for me from a seller in Holland


----------



## agnostic1er

renderman said:


> I agree mordy, the sweet spot for the Elise is around 150 hours, then again, your milage may vary.
> 
> Post your review at http://www.head-fi.org/products/feliks-audio-elise agnostic1er, should help some members looking to buy an amplifier.


 
 No sound change since 60/70 hours for me (Elise is 130 hours now)
 Review posted on products page at the moment.


----------



## Renderman

sonictrance said:


> Me too, and I'm going to, as Renderman was kind enough to get these for me from a seller in Holland




Yep, the CV2821 will be on their way to Sweden soon! Thank you for giving me a chance to listen to them MisterX! From what I heard so far these seem to be very nice tubes! Enjoy!


----------



## Renderman

agnostic1er said:


> No sound change since 60/70 hours for me (Elise is 130 hours now)
> Review posted on products page at the moment.



Ok, would be interesting to hear what you think in about 30 hours


----------



## SonicTrance

renderman said:


> Yep, the CV2821 will be on their way to Sweden soon! Thank you for giving me a chance to listen to them MisterX! From what I heard so far these seem to be very nice tubes! Enjoy!




All thanks goes to you, kind Sir


----------



## agnostic1er

renderman said:


> Ok, would be interesting to hear what you think in about 30 hours


 
 yep, but only in a few weeks because of vacation in... Poland ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (no joke)


----------



## Shaffer

As we seem to have a truly international group - something to take _pride _in - where is everyone from?

I know 001 is from the UK, 004 is from Holland, and 007 is from the USA.

What about the rest of you?


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> As we seem to have a truly international group - something to take _pride _in - where is everyone from?
> 
> I know 001 is from the UK, 004 is from Holland, and 007 is from the USA.
> 
> What about the rest of you?




Yes im proud to live in this small country 

But yeah Shaffer it is a cool to know there are Elises all over the world! Would like to know where people are from too!


----------



## agnostic1er

015:
 Known universe, Milky Way (yummy), Earth, Europe, France, Alsace (white wines, yummy)


----------



## K4RL

0016 found a happy home in the Midwest, USA.


----------



## mordy

009 lives in the Eastern US and speaks fluent Swedish.


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> 009 lives in the Eastern US and speaks fluent Swedish.




Swedish? How cool!

I'm multi-lingual, as well. Doesn't always work out in my favor.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Swedish? How cool!
> 
> I'm multi-lingual, as well. Doesn't always work out in my favor.


 
 Ha! I noticed Elise owner are a quite well educated bunch and most are able to express themselves in the English language quite well. What education did you enjoy Shaf?


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Ha! I noticed Elise owner are a quite well educated bunch and most are able to express themselves in the English language quite well.* What education did you enjoy Shaf? *




I'm honestly embarrassed to say. Too much for my own good. These was a time when I wanted to stay in academia, but it got kinda boring. I have a much more exciting job now, but I can't tell anyone what I do. My friends believe that I'm in IT.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> I'm honestly embarrassed to say. Too much for my own good. These was a time when I wanted to stay in academia, but it got kinda boring. I have a much more exciting job now, but I can't tell anyone what I do. My friends believe that I'm in IT.


 
 Ha, sounds mysterious  You cant tell because you would be unable to explain or because of the secrecy that comes with the job?


----------



## SonicTrance

renderman said:


> Ha, sounds mysterious  You cant tell because you would be unable to explain or because of the secrecy that comes with the job?




He could tell you but then he'd have to kill you (and everyone else on this forum). He's obviously CSI LOL


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Ha, sounds mysterious  You cant tell because you would be unable to explain or because of the secrecy that comes with the job?




I don't mean to sound cryptic, but I just can't say.


----------



## Renderman

'Nough said.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> I don't mean to sound cryptic, but I just can't say.


 
  
 And you have serial number 007....  Hmmm.... I wonder if this is only a coincidence? lol


----------



## hypnos1

Well guys, I sure do feel myself in hallowed company...you obviously all have very good taste to be here, lol!
  
 K4RL...I always suspected the Elise would be a step up from the Crack...glad you're liking her already (and still only early days...).
  
 Shaffer....what can I say?... 007 would appear to be rather appropriate!
  
 a 1er...you'll be paying the Feliks guys a visit, of course?!
  
 Renderman...those tubes should be REAL good - look forward to your (and Mister X's) findings. As for my ECC31s, I can only tell how one sounds coupled with the C3GS I'm afraid...which is probably how things will stay - firstly because I just LOVE the music the pair is making, and secondly because this tube does get the trafo a fair bit hotter, so I don't think I'm gonna take any unnecessary chances (yet!!).
 But what I can say at the moment is take all the best qualities of the C3g and add that extra bass and mids I mentioned before. So the sound is somewhat fuller, and the treble is sweeter when handling tracks with over-enthusiastic/poor quality treble recording. The later ('50s) model has slightly more treble, so the earlier tubes might better suit those sensitive to the top end.
 All in all I would say this is one mighty tube - which explains why some serious head-fi guys have rated this ( or rather the 32, which is basically the same) ABOVE the mighty Tung Sol Black Glass Round Plate 6SN7. And of course the CV181 (same tube) is also legendary...
  
 But I must repeat...I do NOT recommend anyone using two of these tubes just yet...I must do a lot more testing yet to even think of that!
  
 Cheers everyone...
  
 Edit.  Apologies if I have confused people - it would appear I have done for Lord Raven!...when referring to not using "two of these tubes" I meant use one ECC31 IN COMBINATION with a different second tube...so TWO drivers still needed, lol!...and as per my later posts, I am in fact now running two ECC31s with no obvious problems...as yet!!


----------



## Shaffer

Fingers crossed. I really hope the tubes work out.


----------



## agnostic1er

hypnos1 said:


> a 1er...you'll be paying the Feliks guys a visit, of course?!


 
 Unfortunately no, not enough time because Felik's home is too far away from where we go. Maybe another time...


----------



## Renderman

agnostic1er said:


> Unfortunately no, not enough time because Felik's home is too far away from where we go. Maybe another time...


 
 Im seeing a pattern here... an agent would have an interest in headphones and amplification... perfect spygear


----------



## Shaffer

There was a mention of a 7AF7 driver in the DV thread. Is it a tube we can use?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> There was a mention of a 7AF7 driver in the DV thread. Is it a tube we can use?


 
  
 Yes. And in fact, some prefer it to the 7N7.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Yes. And in fact, some prefer it to the 7N7.




Sold!


----------



## Shaffer

I can't help thinking about 004's comment. We are an international group that's obviously very well educated. I don't think it's out of line to assert that this thread is unlike most others on the forum. My personal academic interest lies in behavioral economics and I'm pretty good at it. Usually. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why we're all drawn to this amplifier. 

Thoughts?


----------



## gibosi

Some who now own the Elise used to own a Little Dot. And over the past several years, a number of us became friends as we all took an amazing and wonderful journey together in order to squeeze as much goodness as possible out of our LDs. After having gone as far as we could with the LD, you might say it was time to "graduate" and find new challenges and adventures. A significant number have landed here in the land of Elise and started a new journey together. As a fellow LD traveler I bought a different amp when I graduated, but I like to stop by to see how my friends are doing.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Some who now own the Elise used to own a Little Dot. And over the past several years, a number of us became friends as we all took an amazing and wonderful journey together in order to squeeze as much goodness as possible out of our LDs. After having gone as far as we could with the LD, you might say it was time to "graduate" and find new challenges and adventures. A significant number have landed here in the land of Elise and started a new journey together. As a fellow LD traveler I bought a different amp when I graduated, but I like to stop by to see how my friends are doing.




Works for me.

Edit: So it's propinquity, not dispersion. Very interesting, especially as I'm not watching from the sidelines.


----------



## Renderman

Ahhh, early Saturday morning, bliss for tube headphone amplifiers, everything is quiet and very clean power  Great time to relax and just listen to the music.
  
 I might be the odd one out here, I never owned an LD and my first ever tube amplifier was the Little Bear P8 and, that was just before owning an Elise. Things quickly went down hill from there as I now onw far too many tubes 
  
 Still looking for Philips 6SN7GTs locally, hope to find a really nice pair or at least a single tube to compliment the one I already have.
  
 </rant>


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> I can't help thinking about 004's comment. We are an international group that's obviously very well educated. I don't think it's out of line to assert that this thread is unlike most others on the forum. My personal academic interest lies in behavioral economics and I'm pretty good at it. Usually. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why we're all drawn to this amplifier.
> 
> Thoughts?


 
  
 No mystery really, 007....have you not yet twigged? As a professional hypnotherapist trained in LA I've been hypnotizing y'all!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 But seriously, as per the gist of gibosi's comments, I fervently hoped some of the camaraderie/bonhomie/knowledge/helpfulness of the LD tube rolling guide would migrate over here...and it sure has, lol!
 And perhaps the fact that it is one darn' good (and nice-looking) amp also has something to do with it!!
  
 CHEERS!
 001


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Ahhh, early Saturday morning, bliss for tube headphone amplifiers, everything is quiet and very clean power  Great time to relax and just listen to the music.




I understand completely. It's ~4:30AM in NY. The family is asleep, it's dead quiet, the power is clean, and my three cats and the big, scary dog - just ask the mailman - are hanging out with me. Heaven.



> I might be the odd one out here, I never owned an LD and my first ever tube amplifier was the Little Bear P8 and, that was just before owning an Elise. Things quickly went down hill from there as I now onw far too many tubes




I started out with a LDIII as my first tube HP amp. Didn't hate it, but also didn't love it. It did make for a synergistic combination with HD600 and K550, so I wasn't entirely unhappy. Still, it didn't really do it for me. This being said, I wouldn't mind finding a used LD9 in time for my wife to buy it for my birthday. Same tubes as we use, almost, and I'd like to play with it. What I really want is a Zana Deux in addition to the Elise and the DV336SE.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> I understand completely. It's ~4:30AM in NY. The family is asleep, it's dead quiet, the power is clean, and my three cats and the big, scary dog - just ask the mailman - are hanging out with me. Heaven.





> I started out with a LDIII as my first tube HP amp. Didn't hate it, but also didn't love it. It did make for a synergistic combination with HD600 and K550, so I wasn't entirely unhappy. Still, it didn't really do it for me. This being said, I wouldn't mind finding a used LD9 in time for my wife to buy it for my birthday. lSame tubes as we use, almost, and I'd like to play with it. What I really want is a Zana Deux in addition to the Elise and the DV336SE.


 
 Yes nighttime is bliss for us. Most of the time I sleep during the night tho 
  
 The little bear is also not a bad amplifier for the money and served as a nice test platform to see if I liked tubes at all. Far from perfect but I could hear there was some merrit to tube amplification. As always started dong some research into a much better but affordable product. That's when stumbled upon the Elise (avant la lettre).
  
 I'm sure the Zana is good amplifier but to me looks are important, I love the Elise's looks, The Deux just does not appeal to me vsually. Also, I like the sound of the Elise and I have no need for more then one HP amplifier. I have too much audio equipment as is.


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Yes nighttime is bliss for us. Most of the time I sleep during the night tho




Sleep? What's that? 



> I'm sure the Zana is good amplifier but to me looks are important, I love the Elise's looks, The Deux just does not appeal to me vsually. Also, I like the sound of the Elise and I have no need for more then one HP amplifier. I have too much audio equipment as is. :rolleyes:




I kinda like the retro-industrial look. Over the winter, I emptied my equipment closet on ebay. Well, not all of it, of course. Now it's time to gather more gear. lol 

I'm aiming toward winter/spring for the T1. Perhaps next summer, if I don't use the V200 that much, I'll sell it and buy another tube amp.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Sleep? What's that?
> I kinda like the retro-industrial look. Over the winter, I emptied my equipment closet on ebay. Well, not all of it, of course. Now it's time to gather more gear. lol
> 
> I'm aiming toward winter/spring for the T1. Perhaps next summer, if I don't use the V200 that much, I'll sell it and buy another tube amp.


 
 I heard the V200, it's a good amp but it did not sound special to me, there is no magic. Would you really miss it if it was sold?


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> I heard the V200, it's a good amp but it did not sound special to me, there is no magic. *Would you really miss it if it was sold?*




That's exactly the idea I'm struggling with. The V200 was my favorite amp until the Elise came along. We're having a very hot summer and I'm not using cans as much as I'd like. Mostly, I play the big system. Once it cools down a bit and I can compare my amps over time, things should be more clear. At this point, I'm leaning toward selling it. Like you said, the magic isn't there.


----------



## mordy

Does anybody know if these tubes are worthwhile to buy? Russian 6H8C from late 70's.


----------



## mbllbm

Is Elise will be good with k812?


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Does anybody know if these tubes are worthwhile to buy? Russian 6H8C from late 70's.


 
 Hi Mordy,
  
 Those look very similar (but not exactly the same) to my 'Foton' 6H8C. Nice sounding tubes, quite balanced, smooth maybe slightly diffuse. I believe I got mine at a very good price, these are usually quite inexpensive. If you can get them for about 6 dollars I'd say its a good deal.


----------



## Shaffer

mbllbm said:


> Is Elise will be good with k812?




I don't think we have a K812 owner among us. HD800, T1, and other AKG models, sure.


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Does anybody know if these tubes are worthwhile to buy? Russian 6H8C from late 70's.


 

 I have 2 pairs of Foton 1962 6H8C they sound nice on WA22, how much do they contribute to the overall sound i dont know but i like them for about $5.00 or $6.00 + shipping  you cant go wrong imo.


----------



## Renderman

mikelap said:


> I have 2 pairs of Foton 1962 6H8C they sound nice on WA22, how much do they contribute to the overall sound i dont know but i like them for about $5.00 or $6.00 + shipping  you cant go wrong imo.


 
 Those look more like the ones I've got from 1966, Just took a picture:


----------



## hypnos1

Shaffer, Renderman, gibosi - and anyone else interested in the ECC31 - an update.
  
 Encouraged by a past indication we should be OK with 1A heater drivers, I have taken the plunge and paired my Mullard with the now adapted QTL (another Mullard, which I believe they all are, regardless of brand) and have to admit they have knocked my favourite tube - the Siemens C3g'S' - off its perch. Something I never thought would happen, lol! (but with certain reservations).
  
 With just 20+ hours on them (but only 5 on the adapted section of the QTL), I think I can honestly confirm what others with much more expensive equipment have already stated (with the basically same ECC32)...ie this tube is probably better than ANY 6SN7 on the planet (subject to personal preference of course).
  
 The first main impression is just how SMOOTH and effortless is its presentation. And this is across the entire frequency range. Balance, harmonious integration and perfect control are immediately apparent - you know straight away you are in the presence of something very special indeed.
  
 Clarity, detail, instrument separation are on a par with the C3g (which I personally believe is bettered by VERY few tubes, at ANY cost). Soundstage is wide, with great imaging, and plenty of 'air'. A word that keeps popping into the mind is (tremendous) CONTROL, but not in any kind of cold, clinical sense...rather a wonderful NATURAL way. Nothing tries to dominate...and even the deep, strong bass doesn't impinge in any way at all. The mids give a very seductive 'sheen' to the whole sound, which is where it does have the edge over the C3g. Coupled with a detailed, smoother treble, it handles much better any recording's tendency to sibilance, which can sometimes be the C3g's achilles heel depending on the rest of one's gear...and ears!
  
 The overall presentation is very dynamic and 'full', which the Elise can handle supremely well, so as not to be too overwhelming/tiring. Once again, CONTROLled power is evident here.
  
 In conclusion, I suspect (IMHO) there is no other driver that the Elise can handle - with certain provisos - to match this ECC31/32/CV181.
  
 And the reservations/provisos? :
  
 Sound wise... at the moment, the C3g's greater treble _extension_ and decay do bring an extra 'sparkle' to the sound, which helps provide slightly more air and openness. But for some, this can appear a negative 'sharpness'. Or a 'lightness' as opposed to 'fullness'. Different cans will of course accentuate or diminish such aspects.
  
 Price wise...with the ECC31 going for MUCH less than the 32/CV181 - even with the necessary adapters - I personally think they are tremendous value-for-money, even at about $200 a pair. I would honestly advise to forego any extensive tube 'rolling' and just seek out a pair of these. And as I am getting stellar performance from a '40s tube paired with a '50s one - no untoward anomalies whatsoever - I don't believe you need to worry at all about 'matched' tubes. After all, I have been getting fabulous results when paired with a C3g!!...
   However, so long as the Lorenz C3gs (gold pins) are available from german ebayer omesa-electronics at 19 Euros plus 9 shipping each... (for how long who knows, with just 4 released at a time)...these must actually be a better buy, if the 31s are in fact a bit too pricey. But, of course, C3g adapters for the Elise are not commercially available...
  
 Compatibility wise...although the Feliks-Audio guys can't officially sanction use of the ECC31, as yet I have encountered no problems whatsoever. The higher heater current draw does have the transformer running a good bit hotter - the 31/C3g combo is not too bad at all, and with 2x 31s I can still just about keep my hand on the top of the transformer housing - a measured 42C, with 25C ambient temp. -  (the case stays just warm). And this is at 4.5 hours' running.
  
 So now I'm in somewhat of a dilemna. The two 31s sound so SWEET, and as gibosi hinted to me,SEDUCTIVE! Whether I can live without the C3g's extra sparkle and air, only time will tell. But of course, it's easy enough to swap them around as the mood takes...which I most probably will do, lol! (Who says you can't have TWO loves?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Hope this has given a little food for thought...and of course thanks must go to gibosi for introducing this wonderful tube to us (especially as I had discounted the CV181 a long time ago in the LD days due to its prohibitive cost, even though recommended by guys at the top of their game). CHEERS, g!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 ps.  A pair of NOS Mullards have just gone on ebay for $115...an absolute steal!!
  
 pps.  Another pic  :


----------



## Shaffer

001 and gibosi, my wife thanks you for my future additional expenditure on audio gear. lol

On a side note, we had a very cool (temp-wise) weekend. I spent most of it listening to the tube HP amps. Both the Elise and the DV ran relatively cool and performed as expected ... until now. Just about a half hour ago I switched to the DV. It sounded distorted and lacking power. Thinking it was due to the old tubes, I rolled some trusted bottles to an identical effect. ATM, I'm letting the DV cool completely and will give it another shot. I'll update the post in a few hours....

The Elise, OTOH, has yet to skip a beat.

Edit: I let the DV get cold, installed the stock tubes and confirmed that something is fried inside. What a POS! At this point I'm not sure if I should have it serviced or write it off as a total loss. Don't think I'll be buying another Chinese amp.


----------



## mordy

Here is the link to the Russian tubes that I had pictured above: 6 NOS tubes shipped for $20 to the US.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/281764799799?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Here is the link to the Russian tubes that I had pictured above: 6 NOS tubes shipped for $20 to the US.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/281764799799?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT




Not sure if you need/want 6 otherwise you could get 2 for just 8 dollars!
http://m.ebay.com/itm/6N8S-6CC10-6SN7-1578-ECC32-audiophile-double-triode-tube-NOS-Lot-of-2-/261680680518?_trkparms=aid%253D222007%2526algo%253DSIC.MBE%2526ao%253D1%2526asc%253D20150519202348%2526meid%253D289030f13c46475d893a6f29d7046c85%2526pid%253D100408%2526rk%253D2%2526rkt%253D4%2526sd%253D281764799799&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Shaffer, Renderman, gibosi - and anyone else interested in the ECC31 - an update.
> 
> Coupled with a detailed, smoother treble, it handles much better any recording's tendency to sibilance, which can sometimes be the C3g's achilles heel depending on the rest of one's gear...and ears!
> 
> ...







shaffer said:


> 001 and gibosi, my wife thanks you for my future additional expenditure on audio gear. lol




Ahh.. Now you've got me on the fence 001! I almost bought the pair of ECC31. (Impulse buy?) I can't help but wonder what these would sound like in comparison with the ECC33 i heard recently. Going by your description they sound quite similar and seemed to work fine in the Elise without adapter.


----------



## hypnos1

HELP!...I''m hopelessly torn between two lovers, lol!
  
 On returning after a post-curfew late night session with my new love, the dilemna has compounded 10-fold : the tubes have opened up further and are giving a bit more of the C3g air...and now I'm feeling a right cad - the luscious mids detail, superb deep bass and impeccably balanced delivery are enticing me away from by (almost) life-long beloved.
 I think I'm going to be in need of a _good_ Marriage Guidance Counsellor....anybody know one? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...
  
 ps. The case gets a fair bit warmer with 2x31s, but still nothing too drastic IMHO...
  


shaffer said:


> 001 and gibosi, my wife thanks you for my future additional expenditure on audio gear. lol
> 
> On a side note, we had a very cool (temp-wise) weekend. I spent most of it listening to the tube HP amps. Both the Elise and the DV ran relatively cool and performed as expected ... until now. Just about a half hour ago I switched to the DV. It sounded distorted and lacking power. Thinking it was due to the old tubes, I rolled some trusted bottles to an identical effect. ATM, I'm letting the DV cool completely and will give it another shot. I'll update the post in a few hours....
> 
> ...


 
  
 My good lady concurs with your own I fear!...
  
 Anyway 007, re the DV it's a no-brainer : so long as the estimate for repair is viable...SELL the darn' thing and seek out a pair of ECC31s - and it doesn't matter what name is on them...so long as they're the ST bottle shape, they're all Mullards. And you have my permission to pass ALL the blame onto me, mon ami (for what it's worth LOL!!).
  
  


renderman said:


> Ahh.. Now you've got me on the fence 001! I almost bought the pair of ECC31. (Impulse buy?) I can't help but wonder what these would sound like in comparison with the ECC33 i heard recently. Going by your description they sound quite similar and seemed to work fine in the Elise without adapter.


 
  
 If they are in fact as good, without the need for adapters, that would be great...but not sure about prices...


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> If they are in fact as good, without the need for adapters, that would be great...but not sure about prices...:rolleyes:



They are not cheap, to be sure. But you know me, i'll keep searching for a nice pair until I find some for a good price!


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> They are not cheap, to be sure. But you know me, i'll keep searching for a nice pair until I find some for a good price!


 
  
 Best of luck, R!!...


----------



## gibosi

I've been too busy with classes to spend much time with the ECC31, but I can say that I prefer it over the NU 6F8G. For what it is worth, I prefer the NU over the Tung-Sol BGRP 6SN7GT. However, I haven't had a chance to compare to the Sylvania 6SN7W or either of the C3g.
  
 But as it seems I am never content, I keep looking for other possibilities. A number of folks have extolled the virtues of single triodes, such as the 6J5 (which is essentially one-half a 6SN7), the 7119 and the 76. Below is a nice pair of 76:
  

  
 These are an old design from the days when only two numbers were used for tube identification. Also note that the base has 5 pins. For now, I waiting for an adapter from China to allow a pair of these to be used in one 6SN7 socket, so can't yet say how they sound, or even if they light up....


----------



## Lord Raven

nephilim said:


> The slot numbers are described in the Elise manual which can be downloaded from the website. Of course this doesn't help if the tubes themselves are mixed by someone.


 
 I noticed those numbers very late, and my tube boxes were numbered, not the tubes. Might have been a good idea if I placed them correctly but anyhow  Thanks, good info for new owners.


----------



## Lord Raven

hypnos1 said:


> Hi LR.
> 
> Mine too were numbered for specific sockets...can only guess they were measured for best Left/Right balance, but considering I've mixed all sorts of tubes with no real discernible imbalance I suspect in practice very few people would notice the difference lol!!
> 
> ...


 
 Hello H1,
  
 Good information but it is too late for me to figure out the correct tubes haha. I noticed this phenomenon very late and I am new to it, the warm tube sound  My amplifier is going through phases haha..
  
 I thoroughly listened to my HPs after your comment, I think they are fine  What consensus is made on the best headphones with Elise? Brand, model? 
  
 Regards
 LR


----------



## Lord Raven

gibosi said:


> The Elise cannot drive 32 Ohms cans very well....  But this is true of almost all OTL amps...


 
 Ah, I did not know that. Another reason I should upgrade my HPs. What is the consensus on the best HPs with Elise?


----------



## K4RL

I bet anything high impedance (~300 ohm + ) will work well, but I'm using HD650s and DT880/600s. I'd wager my amp itself that h1 will be here soon to sell you on a pair of T1s


----------



## Suuup

How many Elise have been made? I should receive mine in about a week.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> I've been too busy with classes to spend much time with the ECC31, but I can say that I prefer it over the NU 6F8G. For what it is worth, I prefer the NU over the Tung-Sol BGRP 6SN7GT. However, I haven't had a chance to compare to the Sylvania 6SN7W or either of the C3g.
> 
> But as it seems I am never content, I keep looking for other possibilities.


 
  
 Well g, without spending a VAST amount of money I'd be very surprised indeed if you find anything to touch these ECC31s...but GOOD HUNTING!!
  
 Talking of which, folks, these wonderful tubes deserve the best adapters you can afford...and I am sure these ones are just the job, without actually costing an arm and a leg...in fact I can assure you that given the amount of work in making such things the price is ridiculously cheap, lol! And they are using the sockets I just wish had gone in the Elise (but perhaps they didn't fit their criteria...)  :
  

  
 Link  :  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Gold-plated-ECC31-6N7G-TO-6SN7-CV181-B65-ECC32-ECC33-tube-converter-adapter-/201134198992?hash=item2ed48850d0


----------



## hypnos1

k4rl said:


> I bet anything high impedance (~300 ohm + ) will work well, but I'm using HD650s and DT880/600s. I'd wager my amp itself that h1 will be here soon to sell you on a pair of T1s


 
 Hi K4RL...your amp is safe, mon ami! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...especially now with my latest drivers (have you perchance noticed?!)...If ever an amp/tubes/HPs were just made for each other...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


suuup said:


> How many Elise have been made? I should receive mine in about a week.


 
 Hi Suuup...don't know the number I'm afraid, but nice to see another lucky soon-to-be Elise owner here on the thread. Will be interesting to hear what gear you have, as well as your future impressions of the amp...CHEERS!


----------



## Suuup

hypnos1 said:


> Hi K4RL...your amp is safe, mon ami!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I have a pair of T1's. Never owned a tube amp before, so I'm not really sure what I'm getting myself into here. Hopefully I like it. 
  
 Anyone have any experience with the Elise and T1?


----------



## hypnos1

suuup said:


> I have a pair of T1's. Never owned a tube amp before, so I'm not really sure what I'm getting myself into here. Hopefully I like it.


 
  
 WOW...you've made my day, Su...T1s and never experienced the joy of a good tube amp? - there's no "hopefully" about it!! The T1s NEED the smooth delivery of tubes, and with the choice available you should have no difficulty in seeing why I keep plugging these wonderful cans, lol!


----------



## Suuup

hypnos1 said:


> WOW...you've made my day, Su...T1s and never experienced the joy of a good tube amp? - there's no "hopefully" about it!! The T1s NEED the smooth delivery of tubes, and with the choice available you should have no difficulty in seeing why I keep plugging these wonderful cans, lol!


 
 Yea, that's what I've been hearing all along. So now I'm getting a tube amp. Should be fun.


----------



## SonicTrance

hypnos1 said:


> Well g, without spending a VAST amount of money I'd be very surprised indeed if you find anything to touch these ECC31s...but GOOD HUNTING!!
> 
> Talking of which, folks, these wonderful tubes deserve the best adapters you can afford...and I am sure these ones are just the job, without actually costing an arm and a leg...in fact I can assure you that given the amount of work in making such things the price is ridiculously cheap, lol! And they are using the sockets I just wish had gone in the Elise (but perhaps they didn't fit their criteria...)  :
> 
> ...


 
 He also makes socket savers in the same quality. I'm using those and can recommend them. They both look nice and are high quality!


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> The Elise cannot drive 32 Ohms cans very well....  But this is true of almost all OTL amps...




I've actually had very good results with low-z cans - AD900x and K550. With the DV, OTOH, not so much.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> I've actually had very good results with low-z cans - AD900x and K550. With the DV, OTOH, not so much.


 
 Me too! Even the Sony MDR-1R fares well on the Elise (24 to 48 Ohms) and I would say the K7XX plays very nice with the Elise at just 62 Ohms.


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> 001 and gibosi, my wife thanks you for my future additional expenditure on audio gear. lol
> 
> On a side note, we had a very cool (temp-wise) weekend. I spent most of it listening to the tube HP amps. Both the Elise and the DV ran relatively cool and performed as expected ... until now. Just about a half hour ago I switched to the DV. It sounded distorted and lacking power. Thinking it was due to the old tubes, I rolled some trusted bottles to an identical effect. ATM, I'm letting the DV cool completely and will give it another shot. I'll update the post in a few hours....
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Felix,
  
 Sup, the exact same thing happened with Lars and he quit tubes at all LOL I wanted to warn you about it but I couldn't.
  
 Good luck, you saved someone from buying cheap Chinese stuff. On the same lines, I stopped myself from buying Audio GD DACs.
  
 LOL I just finished reading 5 pages on Elise thread, WTH!


----------



## Lord Raven

Elise is my first ever headphone amplifier, I actually wanted to buy the Bravo, then I found about the LD 1, 2, 3 and 4, from there I discovered that people are moving onto Feliks Elise. LOL finally decided to let go all my research and start reading about Elise. I am an Electrical Engineer, working for a Swedish telecom company (Ericsson) for last 10 years 
  
 Location is Saudi Arabia, but I am from Pakistan. Elise 013, I don't like this number haha
  
  
 Quote:


shaffer said:


> As we seem to have a truly international group - something to take _pride _in - where is everyone from?
> 
> I know 001 is from the UK, 004 is from Holland, and 007 is from the USA.
> 
> What about the rest of you?


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


> Ah, I did not know that. Another reason I should upgrade my HPs. What is the consensus on the best HPs with Elise?


 
  
 Hi LR.
  
 First... I obviously confused you on a previous thread where I advised - at that time - not to use "two of these" ECC31 tubes. I do apologise for any confusion...what I meant was to use just one ECC31 IN COMBINATION with a different second tube - you do need TWO drivers...but I am in fact now running two ECC31s with no obvious problems...as yet!
  
 Second...as other members have confirmed, the Elise can in fact drive low-impedance cans surprisingly well...they can even handle Audeze LCD2s with room to spare - the Feliks-Audio guys did indeed design the amp specifically to handle a very wide impedance range, and much better than usual for an OTL amp. The BEST performance will come with higher impedance cans, but very good results will also be had with lower-z ones.
  
 And so... a TIMELY REMINDER for those fairly new to the thread... info such as this - and MUCH more! - is on the very first post of this thread, and which I try to keep fairly up-to-date...(still a bit more to do, in fact...).


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Me too! Even the Sony MDR-1R fares well on the Elise (24 to 48 Ohms) and I would say the* K7XX plays very nice with the Elise at just 62 Ohms.*




Killer combo!


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 I clicked on your link - the price is $8 all right but the shipping is also $8. So 6 tubes seem to be a good deal for $20 including shipping. However, I am spoiled by the C3g tubes, so i decided against some more "me too" tubes and passed on this deal.
  
 But seriously, we need a few good  inexpensive tubes that will better the C3g and ECC31 tubes......


----------



## mordy

Hi and welcome Suuup,
  
 My guess is that so far not more than 20 Elises have been made.
  
 At the present time I am using the C3g tubes and the stock Svetlana Winged C tubes 6H13C. Sounds very nice with a surprisingly strong bass that goes very low. The Sweetlanas add warmth to the more analytical sounding C3g tubes.
  
 Can anybody explain to me the difference (if any) between the following Russian 6AS7 equivalent tubes:
  
 6H13C, 6N13S, 6N5S and 6H5C
  
 Do the earlier tubes from 60's and 70's sound better than the later iterations?


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> 6H13C, 6N13S, 6N5S and 6H5C
> 
> Do the earlier tubes from 60's and 70's sound better than the later iterations?


 
  
 To the best of my knowledge, 6N13S = 6H13C and 6N5S = 6H5C. I suspect that the different numbers are simply a function of different transliterations from Cyrillic. However, from the datasheets, the 6N13S is not the same as the 6N5S. And since I do not have a 6N5S I cannot say which is the best or how they compare.
  
 The only really extensive comparisons of Russian tubes from different years I am aware of is in regard to the 6N23P as reported in the Lyr thread. The general consensus there is that the mid-1970's are the best. And some consider the 1970s to be the "gold age" of the Russian vacuum tube industry. However, I have no idea if the best of the 6N13S and 6N5S are in fact those manufactured in the mid-1970s....


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> To the best of my knowledge, 6N13S = 6H13C and 6N5S = 6H5C. *I suspect that the different numbers are simply a function of different transliterations from Cyrillic.* However, from the datasheets, the 6N13S is not the same as the 6N5S. And since I do not have a 6N5S I cannot say which is the best or how they compare.




I can read Russian and that's what it looks like to me, as well.


----------



## Shaffer

suuup said:


> How many Elise have been made? I should receive mine in about a week.




Welcome to our little part of cyberspace and congratulations on choosing a fantastic amplifier. I think that you'll not only be impressed with the sound and the quality of the amp, but also with the technical support you'll get in this thread.


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> I clicked on your link - the price is $8 all right but the shipping is also $8. So 6 tubes seem to be a good deal for $20 including shipping. However, I am spoiled by the C3g tubes, so i decided against some more "me too" tubes and passed on this deal.
> 
> But seriously, we need a few good  inexpensive tubes that will better the C3g and ECC31 tubes......


 
  
 Hi m.
  
 Mmmm...."But seriously"..." inexpensive"...." better the C3g and ECC31 tubes"??!!... how many pink elephants have you seen flying lately, my good friend?!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 I go to my bed with a wry smile... one that accompanies the BIG one I have from just listening to some Hi-Res tracks on further burned-in ECC31s...sheer MAGIC...


----------



## Suuup

Just received an email from Lukasz, saying that my amp is number 4 in the pipeline. Two weeks ago it was number 6, and should've be done about now, but they're having troubles with their suppliers. Guess I'll just have to wait a bit more.


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 Here is one of them....


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Hi and welcome Suuup,
> 
> My guess is that so far not more than 20 Elises have been made.
> 
> ...


 

 I got a pair of each from 1959 and a pair from 1987 will look into it


----------



## Shaffer

I've been practicing the gibosi principle of tube buying - find a great single tube and then look for a matching tube in the future. I bought a single Tung-Sol 6SN7 for ~$8 about six weeks ago, and just found a match for $12. Both test very well. IOW, the pair cost me $20. Sometimes it's the little things....


----------



## Shaffer

I once had to wait 8 months for a pair of speakers. In all honesty, I was not thrilled. Once they arrived, however, all the angst was forgotten. This happens with a handmade, meticulously tested product. I think I waited about a month for the Elise.


----------



## mordy

I had to wait around 6 months for my Elise #9, but as everybody attests, it was well worth the wait. (When I ordered the Little Dot MKIII it had just been written up in Stereophile magazine, and I had to wait some 4 months for it to arrive).
  
 Upon opening the package from Feliks Audio I did notice that each tube was numbered from 1 to 4. Did not pay attention to it, but it seems that these numbers indicated which sockets they should be placed in. As LR also writes, I do not know any more which tube is which number.
  
 Can somebody elucidate what the numbering means - is it important?


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi h1,
> 
> Here is one of them....


 
  
 Aah...if any person alive on our fair planet could possibly get to see one, I knew I could rely on you dear Mordy!...but could you _catch_ it, lol?!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 Well, after striking gold with my QTL re-branded Mullard ECC31, Sanity (thanks Groucho!) Clause has delivered me yet another nugget (sorry to rub it in, folks). The great guys over here at Langrex have found me a very nice used NR73/CV1285 which is outputting to just the same level as my NOS '40s tube, and for another very nice price (with the added benefit of not needing a long burn-in...it is indeed Christmas time once more. And although this tube must be closer time-wise to said '40s 31 than the QTL, sonically it is closer to the QTL. Now with the slightly extra treble from both tubes, I am much closer to all that I love about the C3gS, but with the added bonus of what these ECC31s bring to the table. The sense of airiness and spaciousness is manna from Heaven...floating with the clouds I am.
 And a quality I have come to use as a fairly reliable indicator of just how well a tube is performing is its ability to resolve the recording engineer's prowess (or otherwise!) with _reverberation_...poorly engineered or reproduced can (to me anyway) make all the difference to a recording...either enhancing air and space or sounding dreadfully artificial. I found the C3gS handled such reverb to perfection...much more so than any of the many dozens of (very good) tubes I have tried these past 2 years.
  
 I am overjoyed to say this particular pair of 31s is managing this feat also to perfection...I am (once again!) totally dumbfounded...what more can I say? (I know, I know - I've said more than enough already, for which I apologize...but my brain is getting scrambled as I listen to some of my favourite tracks - for the X100th time lol...).
  
 I shall leave you now...but probably only for a short while...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Guys,
  
 I found a great deal on HPs, check this out.
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sennheiser-Orpheus-HE-90-Headphones-HEV-90-Amplifier-The-Set-Fully-serviced-/321828333828?hash=item4aee76a904
  
 What is that amps?


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> I had to wait around 6 months for my Elise #9, but as everybody attests, it was well worth the wait. (When I ordered the Little Dot MKIII it had just been written up in Stereophile magazine, and I had to wait some 4 months for it to arrive).
> 
> Upon opening the package from Feliks Audio I did notice that each tube was numbered from 1 to 4. Did not pay attention to it, but it seems that these numbers indicated which sockets they should be placed in. As LR also writes, I do not know any more which tube is which number.
> 
> Can somebody elucidate what the numbering means - is it important?


 

 Hi again m.
  
 I can only surmise that : a. It's to ensure novices put the drivers where they should be put and ditto the powers!
                                       b. Perhaps the tubes were measured and allocated so as to give most optimum balance?


----------



## Renderman

lord raven said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I found a great deal on HPs, check this out.
> 
> ...


 
 This is actually a set by Sennheiser, the amplfier is their own design.
  
 Some more info on this set right here on our own forum:
 http://www.head-fi.org/products/sennheiser-orpheus-he-90


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Well, after striking gold with my QTL re-branded Mullard ECC31, Sanity (thanks Groucho!) Clause has delivered me yet another nugget (sorry to rub it in, folks). The great guys over here at Langrex have found me a very nice used NR73/CV1285 which is outputting to just the same level as my NOS '40s tube, and for another very nice price (with the added benefit of not needing a long burn-in...it is indeed Christmas time once more. And although this tube must be closer time-wise to said '40s 31 than the QTL, sonically it is closer to the QTL. Now with the slightly extra treble from both tubes, I am much closer to all that I love about the C3gS, but with the added bonus of what these ECC31s bring to the table. The sense of airiness and spaciousness is manna from Heaven...floating with the clouds I am.


 
  
 And of course, now I am wondering...  Which of your two 1940's era ECC31/NR73 does mine sound like? I think I will eventually have to pick up a 1950's era tube to find out....


----------



## MIKELAP

mordy said:


> Hi and welcome Suuup,
> 
> My guess is that so far not more than 20 Elises have been made.
> 
> ...


 

 I tried both pairs the 1959 and 1987 and i cant hear any differences when changing over tubes to me they sound very similar ,nice balanced sound decent bass not bloated i like them and there cheap . this is on my WA2 with Senns HD800 tube complement rectifiers Ei EZ80 and drivers are 70'S 6N23P russian tubes .


----------



## Shaffer

Some may recall the RCA black plate 6AS7G that I didn't get to hear, as its key plate (not sure of the correct name) came off. Gbosi was kind enough to provide reattachment instructions. I did it tonight and it worked perfectly. I wanted to post a public note of thanks.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Some may recall the RCA black plate 6AS7G that I didn't get to hear, as its key plate (not sure of the correct name) came off. Gbosi was kind enough to provide reattachment instructions. I did it tonight and it worked perfectly. I wanted to post a public note of thanks.


 
  
 I am pleased you gave it a try. As many of the tubes now for sale are old equipment pulls, and likely had been installed for decades, it is often necessary to very slowly and gently pry them out of their sockets. Evidently, in their haste, some just jerk the tubes out and as a result the keyways often get broken in the process. Again, I have a very nice pair of 5998, both with broken keyways, that I got for a very good price. As long as these tubes test good and the price is right, I never hesitate to buy them.


----------



## mordy

Hi Mikelap,
  
 Thanks for checking out the two different sets of the Svetlana tubes - good to know that I don't have to hunt down an early pair.
  
 IMHO the Svetlana 6H13C is a very good sounding tube. Isn't it strange that it is somehow under rated and overlooked? Maybe because it is too inexpensive.....
  
 Could it be that psychologically we assume that a $100 tube MUST sound great, but we are fighting that assumption with a $5 tube?
  
 Look, some of the best things in life, like air and water, are free LOL!
  
 hypnos 1,
  
 Couldn't catch the flying pink elephant - the birds got there first.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Some may recall the RCA black plate 6AS7G that I didn't get to hear, as its key plate (not sure of the correct name) came off. Gbosi was kind enough to provide reattachment instructions. I did it tonight and it worked perfectly. I wanted to post a public note of thanks.


 
 Really curious about what you thnk of these, sound wise. I have 4 matching tubes and I think they sound pretty good.


----------



## Lord Raven

You just stole words out of my mouth Mordy bro 

At about 90 to 100 hours I can feel that the bass is getting deep and micro detail can be heard in recordings. Awesome. Whoever said that, burning in process continues to 150 hours is so true. 

I feel less privileged that I don't have a lot of tubes to roll, but the current setup is blowing my mind. I'm waiting for the best value tubes to surface so that I could make my move 

ECC31/32 are added to the list along with C3G. 



mordy said:


> Hi Mikelap,
> 
> Thanks for checking out the two different sets of the Svetlana tubes - good to know that I don't have to hunt down an early pair.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lord Raven

Can't we try those tubes?  reviewers were not the owners, I don't trust them haha 



renderman said:


> This is actually a set by Sennheiser, the amplfier is their own design.
> 
> Some more info on this set right here on our own forum:
> http://www.head-fi.org/products/sennheiser-orpheus-he-90


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> And of course, now I am wondering...  Which of your two 1940's era ECC31/NR73 does mine sound like? I think I will eventually have to pick up a 1950's era tube to find out....


 
  
 Well g, I suspect it's all down to luck of the draw...there would appear to be a multitude of combinations re getters; vanes positioning above the top mica; mica shape and top mica support against glass; degree of internal coating...so there's probably no guarantee as to exactly how the subtle differences will pan out 'til you pop it in, lol! (for example, the vanes above the top mica in my NR73 -  which I believe is the earliest version - are staggered the same as the later QTL, whereas those in the '40s "Mullard ECC31" are in a straight parallel...).
  
 rosgr63's listing on the ECC32 Tube Addicts Thread gives a good idea of the range...but even the pan getters can be different, plus the shape of the bottom mica... :
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/536785/ecc32-tube-addicts
  
 All I can say with fair certainty IMHO is that they are ALL wonderful, and as I have personally found, they still pair up perfectly.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  


mordy said:


> hypnos 1,
> 
> Couldn't catch the flying pink elephant - the birds got there first.
> 
> ...


----------



## mordy

HI LR,
  
 Read the two reviews of the Sennheiser Orpheus - as you state the reviewers did not own them. Found this very instructive:
  
  
_"In a blind test which I performed on ten fellow classical musicians, which included the HD800, HD650 and LCD-3, the Orpheus did not outperform these counterparts to a significant level. In fact, a lot of them preferred the LCD-3 and HD650 over the Orpheus and the HD800. After the blind tests, I revealed all the headphones (the participants were blindfolded at first) and asked them to try these models again. As expected, the Orpheus gained unanimous approval after the visual stimuli."_
  
 Mind over matter.......
  
 However, when it comes to the regular contributors to the Elise blog, I know that I can trust their honest evaluations and impressions.


----------



## hypnos1

Hi all.
  
 This will probably be my last missive on the ECC31 driver, as I'm sure you've had a surfeit of this subject by now!
  
 After a good many 5 hr sessions with two in the Elise, I can confirm the amp is showing no untoward objections whatsoever to tubes a fair way off the original 6SN7 spec which, as alluded to previously by Shaffer and others, shows how the Elise has been "over-engineered" so as to handle treatment beyond stated spec, even though the Feliks guys can't (obviously) _officially_ advertise as such. This displays, once again, what a pedigree amp we are being blessed with...as if we needed any further proof, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just as my LD MKIV SE was pushed to its limits - and into far more hallowed territory! - so I believe is now my Elise...unless anyone else finds differently that is!! (And thankfully this has happened FAR more quickly than with the LD - and without box-loads of tubes to try and move on!).
  
 I still love my C3g'S' tubes, and will probably swap one in now and again - its ability to resolve the highest frequency 'splash'-type percussion, along with a delicious decay, I truly believe IMHO is unsurpassed by any other (vaguely affordable) tube. But the ECC31 brings a richness of sound (without a hint of 'bloat' or compression) that is truly impressive, and which I have never heard before. In addition, gibosi's comment about it being like 'a subwoofer' in the cans is spot on...remarkable....
  
 And so, I can only implore you to keep a look out for these tubes and snap 'em up when you can...even if it's one at a time. So long as they are _fairly_ similar in strength, it won't matter which year/brand/designation (NR73/CV1285/ECC31) they are...you won't be disappointed. And go for those adapters I mentioned previously... (of course, if you're REALLY lucky and everyone else is asleep!, you might one day just hit on a pair of ECC32/CV181 going for peanuts, in which case you wouldn't even need any adapters!!....but don't count on that day - PLEASE ! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 I shall now leave you in peace...perhaps!...
  
 CJ


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Well g, I suspect it's all down to luck of the draw...there would appear to be a multitude of combinations re getters; vanes positioning above the top mica; mica shape and top mica support against glass; degree of internal coating...so there's probably no guarantee as to exactly how the subtle differences will pan out 'til you pop it in, lol! (for example, the vanes above the top mica in my NR73 -  which I believe is the earliest version - are staggered the same as the later QTL, whereas those in the '40s "Mullard ECC31" are in a straight parallel...).
> 
> 
> of course, if you're REALLY lucky and everyone else is asleep!, you might one day just hit on a pair of ECC32/CV181 going for peanuts, in which case you wouldn't even need any adapters!!....


 
  
 First, regarding the ECC32, I really hope someone gets a pair of these to compare with the ECC31. From my research, the ECC32 requires a cathode resistance that is 1/2 to 2/3 that of a 6SN7. And thus, an unmodified 6SN7 circuit is not optimal for a ECC32. On the other hand, when an ECC31 with an adapter is plugged into a 6SN7 circuit, the cathode resistance is halved which is in fact optimal for the ECC31. So theoretically, the ECC31 with an adapter should sound better than an ECC32 in an unmodified 6SN7 circuit. However, as they say, the tube likely didn't read the manual, and it is entirely possible that the ECC32 might actually sound better in a circuit with twice the recommended cathode resistance! lol. The only way to know for sure is to directly compare the ECC31 and ECC32 in the same amp....
  
 H1.... From your description, it would appear that my NR73 has the same construction as yours:
  
 Bottom mica spacer is round with smooth edges and a "pan" getter (not sure about this terminology)
  

  
 Staggered heat radiators and a smooth round top mica spacer with vertical mica supports touching the glass.


----------



## whirlwind

I thought about getting an ECC 32.....will it work at it's potential in the Glenn, gibosi?


----------



## hypnos1

I know, I know...wasn't away for very long was I?!....blame gibosi!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  


gibosi said:


> First, regarding the ECC32, I really hope someone gets a pair of these to compare with the ECC31. From my research, the ECC32 requires a cathode resistance that is 1/2 to 2/3 that of a 6SN7. And thus, an unmodified 6SN7 circuit is not optimal for a ECC32. On the other hand, when an ECC31 with an adapter is plugged into a 6SN7 circuit, the cathode resistance is halved which is in fact optimal for the ECC31. So theoretically, the ECC31 with an adapter should sound better than an ECC32 in an unmodified 6SN7 circuit. However, as they say, the tube likely didn't read the manual, and it is entirely possible that the ECC32 might actually sound better in a circuit with twice the recommended cathode resistance! lol. The only way to know for sure is to directly compare the ECC31 and ECC32 in the same amp....
> 
> H1.... From your description, it would appear that my NR73 has the same construction as yours:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Interesting notion, g...but methinks we're in for a LOOONG wait, given the crazy prices  of those 32s lol!
  
 And yes indeed - your NR73 is identical to mine, so presumably(?!) also similar in sound to my later 'QTL', brown-based 31...but no guarantees!!
  
 ps.  Goodnight to you all!...


----------



## mordy

What do you do with all the boxes from all the tubes and the equipment you order? - here is an idea:


----------



## gibosi

whirlwind said:


> I thought about getting an ECC 32.....will it work at it's potential in the Glenn, gibosi?


 
  
 The Glenn is designed to run 6SN7, and given that the optimal cathode resistance for the ECC32 is about 1/2 of that for a 6SN7, then theoretically, the ECC32 would not be operating to its full potential. That said, I do not know of any commercially available amp that is optimized to run the ECC32. So I have to believe that the vast majority of ECC32 are in fact running in unmodified 6SN7 circuits. And the vast majority of those who have this tube rave about it. So I am sure it will sound extremely good in the Glenn.
  
 But for me, the real question is: Does the ECC31 with adapter sound better than the ECC32 in an unmodified 6SN7 circuit? Again, the ECC31 and ECC32 are identical other than a common cathode. This implies that everything above the bottom mica spacer is the same. The only difference inside the bottle is that the two cathode leads are strapped together below the bottom mica spacer in the ECC31. So I think you should get one of each, an ECC31 and an ECC32 of the same vintage and construction, and then tell us if you detect any difference.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I thought about getting an ECC 32.....will it work at it's potential in the Glenn, gibosi?
> ...


 

 Do you only use one or a pair of ECC31 in your Glenn was checking ECC31 and a pair was almost $300.00 CA


----------



## gibosi

The Glenn uses only one driver...


----------



## gibosi

Just popped in a metal-based Sylvania 6SN7W (my avatar) and it compares extremely well to the ECC31. Granted, it doesn't have quite the same "subwoofer" impact, but still, the bass is very big and solid. Further, mids and highs are just as smooth as I remembered them. I think it is going to take a fair amount of time for me to figure out which of these two I prefer....
  
 And another tip on finding bargains. If you come across one of these with a broken metal base that tests good and at a cheap price, grab it. (And the fact that it is a Delco rebrand also helped to keep the price low.) It seems my "temporary" twist-tie repair is turning out to be permanent. lol


----------



## Shaffer

^^^ Do you know whether early-60s CBS 6SN7 with side getters are the same as the side-getter GEs?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> ^^^ Do you know whether early-60s CBS 6SN7 with side getters are the same as the side-getter GEs?


 
  
 It is necessary to compare the plates. Do they have the Sylvania-style angled plates? Or the GE-style ladder box plates?


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 Are these the same as the tube you have with the twist tie?
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-MB-SYLVANIA-JAN-CHS-6SN7W-Metal-Base-Military-Matched-Pair-Tube-Original-box-/221832065534?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33a638b1fe&nma=true&si=UVAi36LmSLtbMTGqqKgiVDFQ8BE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
  





  
 $400 (each)


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> What do you do with all the boxes from all the tubes and the equipment you order? - here is an idea:


 
  
 Would need to be a container truck methinks, m....
  


gibosi said:


> The Glenn is designed to run 6SN7, and given that the optimal cathode resistance for the ECC32 is about 1/2 of that for a 6SN7, then theoretically, the ECC32 would not be operating to its full potential. That said, I do not know of any commercially available amp that is optimized to run the ECC32. So I have to believe that the vast majority of ECC32 are in fact running in unmodified 6SN7 circuits. And the vast majority of those who have this tube rave about it. So I am sure it will sound extremely good in the Glenn.
> 
> But for me, the real question is: Does the ECC31 with adapter sound better than the ECC32 in an unmodified 6SN7 circuit? Again, the ECC31 and ECC32 are identical other than a common cathode. This implies that everything above the bottom mica spacer is the same. The only difference inside the bottle is that the two cathode leads are strapped together below the bottom mica spacer in the ECC31.* So I think you should get one of each, an ECC31 and an ECC32 of the same vintage and construction, and then tell us if you detect any difference. *


 
  
 Sorry g, gonna have to pass on that one - the 32s, like your Syl 'W' are too pricey (bargains like your 'W' and my QTL 31 just don't come along very often...and there are lots of eagle eyes out there these days, lol!)


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Sorry g, gonna have to pass on that one - the 32s, like your Syl 'W' are too pricey (bargains like your 'W' and my QTL 31 just don't come along very often...and there are lots of eagle eyes out there these days, lol!)


 
  
 I will grant you that bargains on ECC32 are incredibly rare. However, bargains on the 6SN7W are not that rare. There are three versions of the 6SN7W. There is the tall metal-based version, the tall black-based version and the short black-based version and they all sound very similar. I have 2 metal ones, 1 of the tall black ones and 3 of the short ones, and I have paid as little as $35 and not more than $75 each. The short ones are actually quite common and often confused for the more common chrome domes. But if the pictures are reasonably good, the umbrella spokes extending down from the top mica spacer and the free-standing support rod can often be seen.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Hi Gibosi,
> 
> Are these the same as the tube you have with the twist tie?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, but mine are rebranded, not NOS and did not come in their original boxes. You are typically going to pay extra for the JAN designation, NOS and NIB. I suspect that it is likely that the tubes above are not installed in an amp making beautiful music, but instead, are carefully stored away as an investment.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> It is necessary to compare the plates. Do they have the Sylvania-style angled plates? Or the GE-style ladder box plates?




They have Sylvania-style plates.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> They have Sylvania-style plates.


 
  
 And since these CBS tubes do not have GE-style plates, they are likely not the same. Again, different construction usually always results in different sound. But as I do not have either of these tubes, I do not know how either of them sound....


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> And since these CBS tubes do not have GE-style plates, they are likely not the same. Again, different construction usually always results in different sound. But as I do not have either of these tubes, I do not know how either of them sound....




I thought so, but feel much better with a confirmation. 

Another question: Can we use 6SN7*GT*, in lieu of GTA and/or GTB?

Too, can we use 6922/6DJ8 with an octal adapter?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> I thought so, but feel much better with a confirmation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes. The GTA and GTB iterations increased the maximum plate voltage to accommodate larger television CRTs. However, I am not aware of any headphone amps that run at the the higher B+. After all, 1940's VT-231, which many consider the very best 6SN7 are in fact 6SN7GT.
  
 And yes, I often run tubes from the 6DJ8/ECC88 family. The mu is a bit higher, about the same as the ECC31/32, but less than the C3g, so your volume settings might change.


----------



## Shaffer

Another thing, I've been playing with 7AF7s. So far, so good, Can't say that I have a handle on their sound yet.

I also picked up a pair of 7F7s. The price was too low to resist. As I understand, and please correct me, they're an equivalent of 6SL7. The 6SL7, IIRC, has 3.5 time the Mu of a 6SL7, yet they have less gain - far less - than the 7N7s and 6SN7s. I'm curious as to why?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Another thing, I've been playing with 7AF7s. So far, so good, Can't say that I have a handle on their sound yet.
> 
> I also picked up a pair of 7F7s. The price was too low to resist. As I understand, and please correct me, they're an equivalent of 6SL7. The 6SL7, IIRC, has 3.5 time the Mu of a 6SL7, yet they have less gain - far less - than the 7N7s and 6SN7s. I'm curious as to why?


 
  
 Yeah, the mu of a 6SL7/7F7 is 70. Exactly why the gain is far less than that I do not know... But I would guess that while the mu of the tube is 70, the actual "gain" is very circuit dependent. And as a 6SN7 circuit is quite different than one designed for a 6SL7, the tube is not operating to it's full potential, and as a result, the gain is reduced.... But again, this is just a WAG on my part.


----------



## Shaffer

You guys are not going to believe it; the Darkvoice works again. Decided to plug it in and give it another go, just for yucks, and it came alive. We'll see how this lasts....


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> You guys are not going to believe it; the Darkvoice works again. Decided to plug it in and give it another go, just for yucks, and it came alive. We'll see how this lasts....


 
 Unbelievable indeed! Do you think there is a loose contact or bad solder joint? Might be worth to check.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Unbelievable indeed! Do you think there is a loose contact or bad solder joint? Might be worth to check.
> 
> Good luck!




I'll definitely do that. I was going to have a look when it first went into a coma, but was kinda afraid what I'd find. Now that it works, the task seems easy enough. 

I recall reading that the amp is equipped with protection circuitry. IIRC, a few users of the earlier versions reported their amps shutting down once they were on for a long time and became overly hot. My DV was also on for the day and it was very hot, so, perhaps, the protection circuit on the 336SE woks similarly to the limp mode on my EvoIX. The car doesn't stop running, there's just no power. Similarly, the DV turned on and made a sound, but the sound was heavily distorted with no real volume gain. Or, it could be a lose solder joint.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> I'll definitely do that. I was going to have a look when it first went into a coma, but was kinda afraid what I'd find. Now that it works, the task seems easy enough.
> 
> I recall reading that the amp is equipped with protection circuitry. IIRC, a few users of the earlier versions reported their amps shutting down once they were on for a long time and became overly hot. My DV was also on for the day and it was very hot, so, perhaps, the protection circuit on the 336SE woks similarly to the limp mode on my EvoIX. The car doesn't stop running, there's just no power. Similarly, the DV turned on and made a sound, but the sound was heavily distorted with no real volume gain. Or, it could be a lose solder joint.


 
 If it was the protection kicking in, wouldn't the amp be totally silent instead of having distorted sound?
  
 Funny you should mention this now, as I am working on improving the power supply of my other tube amps. Hoping to reduce hum and noise by replacing the caps with some slightly better ones. 

 Tight fit but just managed to squeeze them in


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> If it was the protection kicking in, wouldn't the amp be totally silent instead of having distorted sound?




Can't say that I disagree on a logical level. 



> Funny you should mention this now, as I am working on improving the power supply of my other tube amps. Hoping to reduce hum and noise by replacing the caps with some slightly better ones.
> 
> 
> 
> Tight fit but just managed to squeeze them in




Nice. What amp is that? 

I'd like to do something similar to the DV along with replacing its coupling caps, some of the resistors, and the volume pot. The DV does have promise, and sounds quite good ... until I fire-up the Elise.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Can't say that I disagree on a logical level.
> Nice. What amp is that?
> 
> I'd like to do something similar to the DV along with replacing its coupling caps, some of the resistors, and the volume pot. The DV does have promise, and sounds quite good ... until I fire-up the Elise.


 
 These are actually my old Antique Audio Labs Wave 8 monoblocks. Pretty simple, minimalistic design and a whopping 8 watts! But these have quite a nice sound, their only real drawback is the bit of hum and noise that sometimes annoys me. Hopefully the mods (including a big 4H inductor) will improve the ripple and quiet them down a bit.
  
 Using an Alps pot in the DV would help a lot I would think, if only for the feel of it!  What is the value of the couplng caps on the DV?


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> These are actually my old Antique Audio Labs Wave 8 monoblocks. Pretty simple, minimalistic design and a whopping 8 watts! But these have quite a nice sound, their only real drawback is the bit of hum and noise that sometimes annoys me. Hopefully the mods (including a big 4H inductor) will improve the ripple and quiet them down a bit.




Interesting amps. What are you driving with them?



> Using an Alps pot in the DV would help a lot I would think, if only for the feel of it!  What is the value of the couplng caps on the DV?




That's a good question. Here's what the amp looks like inside:


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Interesting amps. What are you driving with them?
> That's a good question. Here's what the amp looks like inside:


 
 Yeah they are really good bang for the buck, these cost $99 each when they were sold new. I paid 100 euros for the pair. A lot of them were sold in North America so i'm sure you could find a pair 
  
 I built some very efficient full range speakers (Using Mark Fenlon's excellent drivers!) they produce 96dB/watt or more, depending on how you measure so, the 8 watts is more then sufficient. It also means i'm more likely to hear the hum of the amps.
  
 I've completed the first part of my mods on one of the amps and thankfully it still works! Hum is reduced somewhat and the noise is inaudible unless my ear is up against the speaker. I'm happy with these so far, now the wait is for the inductors to arrive.


----------



## Shaffer

The only things I'm missing are very sensitive speakers. Not that I wouldn't love a pair in addition to the Dunlavys. I do own a pair of Klipsch Heresy (1.5 from '82), but the inductors in their x-overs like ss. I rebuilt the speakers as much as I could - upgraded the x-over and the diaphragms in the horns. They're now our TV speakers along with a subwoofer that's built into the house. Yes, you read that correctly. The sub is built into an 48ft^3 alcove, uses a pair of 18" pro drivers in a MLTL alignment, and utilizes the entire home as an extension of the enclosure. We estimate its sensitivity at ~105dB @ 8 Ohm. The thing will literally take the garage door off its hinges at full blast. It's a lot of fun!


----------



## Lord Raven

renderman said:


> If it was the protection kicking in, wouldn't the amp be totally silent instead of having distorted sound?
> 
> Funny you should mention this now, as I am working on improving the power supply of my other tube amps. Hoping to reduce hum and noise by replacing the caps with some slightly better ones.
> 
> ...




I have seen that cap before, very expensive and interesting


----------



## CITIZENLIN

Reporting in
  
 S/N 017 arrived yesterday. Elise is a black beauty. Its a step up or two right out of the box comparing to LD IV. I love LD IV but Elise sounds better already without "burn in" period. Currently listening to Elise with stock tubes. Another happy camper. It came with GH13cx2 for power and Tung sol 6SN7gtx2 (Russian) (driver) tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

citizenlin said:


> Reporting in
> 
> S/N 017 arrived yesterday. Elise is a black beauty. Its a step up or two right out of the box comparing to LD IV. I love LD IV but Elise sounds better already without "burn in" period. Currently listening to Elise with stock tubes. Another happy camper. It came with GH13cx2 for power and Tung sol 6SN7gtx2 (Russian) (driver) tubes.




Excellent news! I agree; hearing this amp for the first time can be a rather riveting experience. It was for me.


----------



## UntilThen

citizenlin said:


> Reporting in
> 
> S/N 017 arrived yesterday. Elise is a black beauty. Its a step up or two right out of the box comparing to LD IV. I love LD IV but Elise sounds better already without "burn in" period. Currently listening to Elise with stock tubes. Another happy camper. It came with GH13cx2 for power and Tung sol 6SN7gtx2 (Russian) (driver) tubes.


 

 Congrats 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 I've been following this thread for a while since Shaffer alerted me to the Elise. Thought it might be a good step up from the DarkVoice 336se that I currently have. I think what Shaffer said to me was it's a different sonic dimension which really pique my interest.


----------



## CITIZENLIN

shaffer said:


> Excellent news! I agree; hearing this amp for the first time can be a rather riveting experience. It was for me.


 
 Elise is warmer than LD IV. The weather doesn't help. Its over 100 F outside today. Its bout 90F inside the house. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't usually turn on the aircon but windows. Power tubes were about 170F and drivers are 105F with couple of pc fans on.


untilthen said:


> Congrats
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks Uthen, I don't have experience with DarkV 336SE but I like it better than crack and LD IV. At 499 plus shipping is almost a crime. I must say its " deal of the year" for me.


----------



## UntilThen

That's saying a lot if you like it more than the Crack. Is the price still $499? I thought it's gone up to $649. Did you order before the price increase?
  
 Cheers


----------



## Renderman

lord raven said:


> I have seen that cap before, very expensive and interesting


 
 Interesting indeed, where did you see it? The white is a Mundorf Mcap 400 56uF, I got them at a very good price actually. The big blue cap next to it is a BC Components 385V 220uF. Together with the inductor they should do a nice job at filtering


----------



## Renderman

citizenlin said:


> Thanks Uthen, I don't have experience with DarkV 336SE but I like it better than crack and LD IV. At 499 plus shipping is almost a crime. I must say its " deal of the year" for me.


 
 That is praise indeed, I'm glad you like the Elise Citizenlin! Welcome to the club


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> That's saying a lot if you like it more than the Crack. Is the price still $499? I thought it's gone up to $649. Did you order before the price increase?
> 
> Cheers




Yea, I'm sure he did. The $650 price does include a set of new production Tung-Sol drivers that were previously a $70 option. Feliks uses a "selected" version of the tube. I have the selected and the non-selected versions. The factory set is more transparent, more extended, and more dimensional sounding. I still prefer 7N7 and 7AF7 drivers, for the most part, but the stock set is quite good. It does need ~50 hours to fully open up.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Yea, I'm sure he did. The $650 price does include a set of new production Tung-Sol drivers that were previously a $70 option. Feliks uses a "selected" version of the tube. I have the selected and the non-selected versions. The factory set is more transparent, more extended, and more dimensional sounding. I still prefer 7N7 and 7AF7 drivers, for the most part, but the stock set is quite good. It does need ~50 hours to fully open up.


 
 Those Tung-Sol drivers are quite good indeed, they sell 3 versions of the tube. The standard version, A HQ audio version (selected for transparency) and a Balanced version where both triodes in the tube match.


----------



## UntilThen

Ah thanks Shaffer for clarifying about the price. Got me excited there for a second.
  
 It's great to hear that the Elise with stock tubes sounds good and enlightening to hear that the Feliks Audio selected Tung Sols are better sounding than the ones you would buy on your own.
 That's certainly a Christmas wish coming. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Renderman which Tung Sol version is being bundled at the $649 price.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> Renderman which Tung Sol version is being bundled at the $649 price.



Without knowing for sure, I would think they have used the HQ version as that would probably sound best in the Elise.


----------



## Lord Raven

citizenlin said:


> Reporting in
> 
> S/N 017 arrived yesterday. Elise is a black beauty. Its a step up or two right out of the box comparing to LD IV. I love LD IV but Elise sounds better already without "burn in" period. Currently listening to Elise with stock tubes. Another happy camper. It came with GH13cx2 for power and Tung sol 6SN7gtx2 (Russian) (driver) tubes.




Many congratulations Citizenlin  I'm not sure why did you not get a free upgrade but I'm new to those tubes you have mentioned, wait for a while for mind blowing experience. I listen to 013 for hours and hours and I'm addicted to it. Looks like Shaffer has converted many to Elise, IIRC he was the one coupled with H1 to convert me to Elise and I had no prior experience of tubes what so ever. Happy listening.


----------



## Lord Raven

renderman said:


> Interesting indeed, where did you see it? The white is a Mundorf Mcap 400 56uF, I got them at a very good price actually. The big blue cap next to it is a BC Components 385V 220uF. Together with the inductor they should do a nice job at filtering




I use a 22uf 16v capacitor in series to my Focal Utopia No.7 Beryllium tweeters called TBe for DC protection  My caps are just 1$ and my friend is using these M caps haha I'm thinking how to house them in small tweeter enclosures  

They're big in size and price. Besides that, another friend is using them in custom passive filters in his home audio drivers. Highly regarded stuff you got there.


----------



## Lord Raven

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/offer-listing/B0011UB9CQ/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Hi Guys, 

If you're in Canada or US, I found a store that is giving some really good prices on headphones and stuff, do check out. HD600 is only for 69 dollar Canadian. Too good to be true. Buying eyes closed. Hope it's my a scam haha. 

Cheers 
013


----------



## UntilThen

That's from Amazon which you can return no question ask. What a bargain. Snap it up quick.


----------



## Lord Raven

untilthen said:


> That's from Amazon which you can return no question ask. What a bargain. Snap it up quick. :bigsmile_face:


I missed it  Prices are back to normal, I have a hard time trusting people on the Internet haha 

Actually, sometimes it shows low price, sometimes high. Something is wrong.


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> Many congratulations Citizenlin
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 If you have the Darkvoice 336se and you're looking to upgrade it's not hard to be convinced to go with the Elise. I was on the Darkvoice 336se tube rolling thread and expressed that I'm looking at the La Figaro 339 as my upgrade path. I love the DV 336se sound, warm and lush. That's when Shaffer pop in and mention that the Elise use the same compliments of power and driver tubes and that it sounded great.


----------



## Lord Raven

untilthen said:


> If you have the Darkvoice 336se and you're looking to upgrade it's not hard to be convinced to go with the Elise. I was on the Darkvoice 336se tube rolling thread and expressed that I'm looking at the La Figaro 339 as my upgrade path. I love the DV 336se sound, warm and lush. That's when Shaffer pop in and mention that the Elise use the same compliments of power and driver tubes and that it sounded great.




Exactly  If it can beat Little Dot MK IV SE right out of the box, just imagine what it can do at 50, 100 and fully breaking-in at 150 hours  Endless goosebumps, I'm at about 80 to 90 with my cheap equipment but still mind blowing experience.


----------



## UntilThen

lord raven said:


> I missed it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 I reckon you should wait for a bargain on Beyer T1. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Was reading this thread http://www.head-fi.org/t/472114/hd800-and-t1-musings
 and with the T1 price now being so much lower than the HD800 ...the choice is quite obvious.


----------



## Lord Raven

untilthen said:


> I reckon you should wait for a bargain on Beyer T1. :bigsmile_face:
> 
> Was reading this thread http://www.head-fi.org/t/472114/hd800-and-t1-musings
> and with the T1 price now being so much lower than the HD800 ...the choice is quite obvious.


HD800 won the battle  T1 can save you some money for a DAC.


----------



## UntilThen

lorspeaker said:


> My DV336se is just a singlebarrel 6as7+6sn7 combo...
> but this ELISE is a DOUBLE barrel whammer,
> from what i am hearing out of the DV, this ELISE should more than satisfy.
> 
> ...


 
  
  


acapella11 said:


> Hi Hypnos1, tjw321, Nic and everyone else
> 
> Thanks H1 to write this nice report. You should, in fact post it on the UK Meet page, too =)
> 
> ...


 

 I've been enjoying everyones commentary on the Elise but these 2 sticks out in my mind. It's very entertaining reading through the thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I was trying to get a feel for Elise's sound and I have a preference for warm and lush. I like what I read in Acapella's impression above. I would add also Shaffer's comparison between the Darkvoice 336se and the Elise is also a very strong factor for mine wanting an Elise.
  
 There are many who gave very good reviews like Rendarman and Agnostic? sorry if I spell that wrong lol. Of course the thread starter H1. If your name is left out I apologise. Many have contributed to making Elise known.
  
 Now let me talk to Lukasz. I might as well bring Christmas forward.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Congrats to *CITIZENLIN *on getting his Elise!!
  
  
  
 What is Lukasz's email address?  I sent an email, the middle of last week to info@feliksaudio.pl asking about my build, but received no reply. 
  
 If there a better email address to use?
  
 Appreciate...


----------



## agnostic1er

jazzvinyl said:


> Congrats to *CITIZENLIN *on getting his Elise!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 address is OK but Lukasz usually replies after a few days since 3 or 4 weeks ago.


----------



## hypnos1

citizenlin said:


> Elise is warmer than LD IV. The weather doesn't help. Its over 100 F outside today. Its bout 90F inside the house.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 GREAT NEWS ,C...glad you like her already - my IV SE is _still_ pining away in the attic...poor thing!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Anyway...WELCOME!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And yes indeed, at the initial price it was an absolute *STEAL!!*...(and ssshhh - if you really want to be blown totally away, look out for a pair of ECC31s...I'll say no more...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...sorry, g...).
  


untilthen said:


> I've been enjoying everyones commentary on the Elise but these 2 sticks out in my mind. It's very entertaining reading through the thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UntilThen...nice to see yet another new face here - methinks Shaffer must be on commission, lol!!
  
 YES...you MUST treat yourself to an early Christmas present - you'll not regret it!
  


jazzvinyl said:


> Congrats to *CITIZENLIN *on getting his Elise!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi JV...none better that I know of...but sometimes there's a lull, and then - WHAM!!  But another email wouldn't harm, I'm sure...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...GOOD LUCK!


----------



## Renderman

lord raven said:


> I use a 22uf 16v capacitor in series to my Focal Utopia No.7 Beryllium tweeters called TBe for DC protection
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That's nice to know, I've used other Mundorf caps in my filters as well! They are indeed highly regarded and I myself had very good experience with them too. There ae the even more expensive silver/gold caps from Mundorf but those are prohibitively expensive for most applcations.
  
 Maybe it's possible to make an external filter instead of trying to cram them in a small enclosure. Just an idea 
  
 Every single of Mundorf cap I triend so far performed remarkably and measured extremely close to their supposed values, well below 1% deviation.


----------



## Suuup

I've written twice to Lukasz in the past week, and he has not yet responded. Anyone know how they're doing?


----------



## SonicTrance

renderman said:


> That's nice to know, I've used other Mundorf caps in my filters as well! They are indeed highly regarded and I myself had very good experience with them too. There ae the even more expensive silver/gold caps from Mundorf but those are prohibitively expensive for most applcations.
> 
> Maybe it's possible to make an external filter instead of trying to cram them in a small enclosure. Just an idea
> 
> Every single of Mundorf cap I triend so far performed remarkably and measured extremely close to their supposed values, well below 1% deviation.




I use Mundorf silver/gold/oil 0,68 uf coupling caps in my LD MK6. I can only compare them to the stock caps though but the difference is HUGE! Totally worth it IMO


----------



## Renderman

sonictrance said:


> I use Mundorf silver/gold/oil 0,68 uf coupling caps in my LD MK6. I can only compare them to the stock caps though but the difference is HUGE! Totally worth it IMO


 
 Wow, thats like a 60 euro cap! Seems you have spared no expense modding your LD. Could you describe the changes in sound?


----------



## UntilThen

suuup said:


> I've written twice to Lukasz in the past week, and he has not yet responded. Anyone know how they're doing?


 

 As interest in the Elise gather momentum from the enthusiastic and favourable feedback here, Feliks Audio must be very busy.
 I spoke to Lukas 6 days ago via email and he replied immediately the next day. He was happy and helpful in his reply and stated that if I follow through with the purchase, mine would be the first unit to another corner of the world, Australia.
  
 I wrote to him last night stating that I am ready now to order. I'm sure he will reply. I am sure glad I didn't leave this closer to Christmas. One can only imagine how much busier they would be then.


----------



## nephilim

Some news from #011. I decided that it's time to pair the Elise with higher impedance cans. As my K712 have a decent bass boost already I was interested in a more neutral presentation... and went for the HD800. It took me two days (or better nights) to get "adjusted" to the treble but now I love them. Before pulling the trigger I was a bit afraid of the often described lack of bass and too strong focus on details (such that imperfections of the recording would become too dominant). Well, I am relieved that I feel the bass is perfectly fine and that, e.g., Gould's humming does not distract me too much. 011 is running on C3g-S (found a new pair for a decent price) and the Chatham 6520.
  
 My LD Mk3 is on ebay now. Let's see if the K712 will follow.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi UntilThen...nice to see yet another new face here - methinks Shaffer must be on commission, lol!!
> 
> YES...you MUST treat yourself to an early Christmas present - you'll not regret it!


 
  
 Thanks H1. Me thinks you've done for Elise much more than you can imagine.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Thanks H1. Me thinks you've done for Elise much more than you can imagine.




Agreed. If it weren't for H1, the Elise likely would have never been made.


----------



## hypnos1

Thanks guys...life without the Elise would not be the same, lol!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  -  and am glad a good many of you now are also enjoying her charms!!  May there be many more...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 CHEERS...


----------



## SonicTrance

renderman said:


> Wow, thats like a 60 euro cap! Seems you have spared no expense modding your LD. Could you describe the changes in sound?


 
 Soundstage is way bigger than the stock caps. Clarity and especially detail is much higher. It really took the amp to another level. Good quality recordings is a must though as these caps are very honest


----------



## Lord Raven

hypnos1 said:


> Thanks guys...life without the Elise would not be the same, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hello Hypnosis,
  
 I will thank you for your services when you'll find me the best tubes to roll into my Elise 
  
 The sound already is surreal, literally, I just have to check if there is any sound effect that I switched on and forgot about it. I am feeding it unaltered sound and it is giving me the sound I used to dream of. 100 hours magic is speaking for itself 
  
 I am dying for a DAC, Elise deserves the best. I am reading about Femto Clocks and Line Conditioners, different DAC chips and brands offering the best implementation of these ICs. If you need to benefit from my knowledge you can hit me with a PM 
  
 New guys looking to buy Elise, trust me, it would be worth the wait. I waited for almost 2 months, drove 2 hours to self pick it from customs. This is my first tube amp and I feel lucky that it happened. Lukasz is a busy man, not just building Elise, they have other amps either. Elise is not built as an ordinary amp, he takes it under his personal supervision for quality. It might take around 2 months after you order.
  
 I am going back to my late night listening  
  
 Cheers
 013


----------



## Lord Raven

Thanks for the idea R, I am only using a cap for protection from DC during amp on and off. I am running digital filters (Active Filters) that are fully programmable from the DSP by JBL called MS-8 specially designed for car environment with Logic 7 
  
 Quote:


renderman said:


> That's nice to know, I've used other Mundorf caps in my filters as well! They are indeed highly regarded and I myself had very good experience with them too. There ae the even more expensive silver/gold caps from Mundorf but those are prohibitively expensive for most applcations.
> 
> Maybe it's possible to make an external filter instead of trying to cram them in a small enclosure. Just an idea
> 
> Every single of Mundorf cap I triend so far performed remarkably and measured extremely close to their supposed values, well below 1% deviation.


 
  
 This is the kind of feedback that empties my wallet and breaks my bank  Guys, please stop it LOL
  


sonictrance said:


> I use Mundorf silver/gold/oil 0,68 uf coupling caps in my LD MK6. I can only compare them to the stock caps though but the difference is HUGE! Totally worth it IMO


 
  
  


sonictrance said:


> Soundstage is way bigger than the stock caps. Clarity and especially detail is much higher. It really took the amp to another level. Good quality recordings is a must though as these caps are very honest


----------



## UntilThen

Raven the headphone you wanted at a special price
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/281737237431?rmvSB=true


----------



## Lord Raven

untilthen said:


> Raven the headphone you wanted at a special price
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/281737237431?rmvSB=true




Thanks bro, I read the link you posted earlier. It clearly said, HD800 is the winner  Therefore I'm holding back.. I'll either get best value HD600, or jump straight to HD800. But first of all, I am studying DACs and I'm dying to get one. Any suggestions?


----------



## Renderman

lord raven said:


> Thanks bro, I read the link you posted earlier. It clearly said, HD800 is the winner
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Sure, I've researched and tried many DACs. But it all depends on what you are looking for. What is your buget? Do you want an analytical or musical DAC. Solid state or tube? What kind of inputs do you need?
  
 There are many more criteria but maybe if I knew a little bit what you were looking for I could give you some suggestions.


----------



## Lord Raven

renderman said:


> Sure, I've researched and tried many DACs. But it all depends on what you are looking for. What is your buget? Do you want an analytical or musical DAC. Solid state or tube? What kind of inputs do you need?
> 
> There are many more criteria but maybe if I knew a little bit what you were looking for I could give you some suggestions.




First of all, budget is not known. Sometimes I feel like throwing in all my money on a DAC to compliment Elise, next moment I just want to buy a tiny USB DAC. LOL 

So far I have decided that, I don't need a tiny USB DAC, or a portable DAC. Moreover, I decided that it should have USB input of highest bit level 32/384, should also have line out and other connectivity for a future proof purchase like optical and coaxial. Must have a very decent power supply to compliment a dead quiet Elise. Can have Femto Clocks and Naked Resistors 

In short, a USB DAC that is awesome. 

I'm almost sold to Wyred4Sound DAC 1 DAC 2  Then there is Geek Pulse, very controversial DAC, mixed reviews. 

PS No Chinese stuff, please!


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> Some news from #011. I decided that it's time to pair the Elise with higher impedance cans. As my K712 have a decent bass boost already I was interested in a more neutral presentation... and went for the HD800. It took me two days (or better nights) to get "adjusted" to the treble but now I love them. Before pulling the trigger I was a bit afraid of the often described lack of bass and too strong focus on details (such that imperfections of the recording would become too dominant). Well, I am relieved that I feel the bass is perfectly fine and that, e.g., Gould's humming does not distract me too much. 011 is running on C3g-S (found a new pair for a decent price) and the Chatham 6520.
> 
> My LD Mk3 is on ebay now. Let's see if the K712 will follow.


 
  
 WELL DONE! on the HD800s, n...you're now experiencing what the Elise is TRULY capable of!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (especially with that killer combination of tubes - well done also on those C3g'S's...not to mention the 6520s, lol!).
  
 And yes, as with the Beyer T1s, HD800 + C3gS's amazing treble can take a bit of getting used to, but becomes addictive...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Do keep us informed of your detailed findings as everything burns in further...
  
 CHEERS!


----------



## agnostic1er

nephilim, did you test some anax mods variations on your hd800?


----------



## Renderman

lord raven said:


> First of all, budget is not known. Sometimes I feel like throwing in all my money on a DAC to compliment Elise, next moment I just want to buy a tiny USB DAC. LOL
> 
> So far I have decided that, I don't need a tiny USB DAC, or a portable DAC. Moreover, I decided that it should have USB input of highest bit level 32/384, should also have line out and other connectivity for a future proof purchase like optical and coaxial. Must have a very decent power supply to compliment a dead quiet Elise. Can have Femto Clocks and Naked Resistors
> 
> ...


 
 I agree, you should stay away from mini and most chinese dacs. If you really want an awsome, cost no object DAC ofcourse I would have to suggest the Didit DAC212 made right here in the Netherlands!
 http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/didit/1.html
  
 It's not cheap ofcourse but, I was blown away by this DACs sound quality, even its built-in headphone output (with dedcated amp) sounds very good. Would be a nice match with Elise i would think 
  
 For more discussion on DACs lets do it via PM to not muck up the thread too much


----------



## Renderman

sonictrance said:


> Soundstage is way bigger than the stock caps. Clarity and especially detail is much higher. It really took the amp to another level. Good quality recordings is a must though as these caps are very honest


 
 That's my experience with Mundors caps too. The only caps I ever heard that sounded even Better were the Audio Note Silver. But, those are at least double the price. For my application as a power filter cap in the Wave 8 thye are probably over the top but I got such a good deal on these I just could not resist! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 By the way, tell us how you like the ECC33 tubes so far!


----------



## SonicTrance

renderman said:


> That's my experience with Mundors caps too. The only caps I ever heard that sounded even Better were the Audio Note Silver. But, those are at least double the price. For my application as a power filter cap in the Wave 8 thye are probably over the top but I got such a good deal on these I just could not resist! :tongue_smile:
> 
> By the way, tell us how you like the ECC33 tubes so far!




Yes, they're nice caps for sure! 

I'm on vacation in Spain, Fuerteventura, so haven't had much time to listen I'm afraid. I'll be home next week though. I'll try to do a comparison between my different ECC35's, the ECC33's and.......wait for it.......the ECC32!


----------



## Renderman

sonictrance said:


> Yes, they're nice caps for sure!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I would be very interested in that comparison! Time for a vacation to... Sweden!
  
 So go back home right now! Just kidding, enjoy your vacation.


----------



## MusclePharm

I'm no expert on the subject, but I've been interested on this DAC for a while now: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/kingrex9/1.html And, for the price, I don't think it can be easily beat.
  
 Still, you may want to open a new topic for that, you will likely get more opinions anyway.


----------



## nephilim

hypnos1 said:


> WELL DONE! on the HD800s, n...you're now experiencing what the Elise is TRULY capable of!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 There are only a few recordings where I find the treble a bit too dominant. But then I am currently tracking a pair of ECC31...
  
 Btw, no progress on the hum front. The Elise still hums, even with the HD800. I applied Deoxit 100 but the only effect was that the tubes glide into the sockets very easily  Maybe I have to ask a electrician to check what might cause the trouble. It's an old house, maybe something is screwed up here.
  


agnostic1er said:


> nephilim, did you test some anax mods variations on your hd800?


 
 No mods yet - but I plan to follow Tyll's instructions when I have some time.


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> .
> 
> *Btw, no progress on the hum front. The Elise still hums, even with the HD800.* I applied Deoxit 100 but the only effect was that the tubes glide into the sockets very easily  Maybe I have to ask a electrician to check what might cause the trouble. It's an old house, maybe something is screwed up here.
> 
> No mods yet - but I plan to follow Tyll's instructions when I have some time.




Have you tried plugging it into a different electrical line? You probably have; just thought I'd check.


----------



## nephilim

Yes, I have - and I have found one outlet where the hum seems to be gone. Unfortuantely, I would have to move my listening sessions to the garden to use that outlet. There seems to be an issue inside the house.


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> Yes, I have - and I have found one outlet where the hum seems to be gone. Unfortuantely, I would have to move my listening sessions to the garden to use that outlet. There seems to be an issue inside the house.




You've probably tried floating the ground on the power cord, as well? 

Chasing hum and buzz can become a lifetime occupation. Ask me how I know. lol


----------



## nephilim

Done that, too. I used two different DC offset filters (one DIY, one purchased) between the amp and the outlet - no effect. I lifted ground - again no effect. But then I am bored and look forward to lifetime occupations


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Does the HUM goes up/down with a turn of your volume pot?


----------



## nephilim

No, it's constant and appears a couple of seconds after I switch on the amp. Towards high volume settings a hiss kicks in but that doesn't bother me.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

so meaning while the tube is heating up,could be a bad tubes.


----------



## nephilim

I would say it starts once the tubes are heated up. And I tried various driver and power tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> I would say it starts once the tubes are heated up. And I tried various driver and power tubes.




Is it possible for you to run a dedicated line into your listening room? 

FWIW, dedicated lines cured a lot of the problems I had. Phono can still be an issue, sometimes, unless I run a balanced phono stage (input to output), but that's almost to be expected with +70dB of gain.

In my case, the last signs of noise were eliminated with a Furutch power cord. I actually don't know if it's a real Furutech, as I bought the wire from China and terminated it myself, but out of all the cords I built, this is the only one that does the trick. I guess I'm saying that if you have a relationship with a high-performance shop, they may let you borrow several cords and see if any of them work for you. I was a non-believer util I heard it for myself.


----------



## gibosi

For anyone looking for a pair of GEC 6AS7, this might be a of interest:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/778171/pair-gec-6as7g-a1834-labelled-osram-brown-curved-base-nos


----------



## Lord Raven

Bro, if you have any power issues and notice any ground noise/humm, then don't worry first and you might want to buy power gear, APC and Tripp-Lite are very good brands and they scale up into the higher end as well. I was talking to an audio guy and this is as per suggestion. I don't have these issue but I still want to put some nice and clean power to my home audio gear.
  
 I have noticed that, neighbours have installed an extra AC, and when it switches on, I kind of feel the vibrations in the room, and the headphone isolation is not enough to kill that noise. Part of the noise comes into Elise as well, but I am still not sure if there is any noise or am I just feel those vibrations alone. I hate that AC. I might have to change the room to kill that noise.
  
 Quote:


nephilim said:


> I would say it starts once the tubes are heated up. And I tried various driver and power tubes.


----------



## Lord Raven

renderman said:


> I agree, you should stay away from mini and most chinese dacs. If you really want an awsome, cost no object DAC ofcourse I would have to suggest the Didit DAC212 made right here in the Netherlands!
> http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/didit/1.html
> 
> It's not cheap ofcourse but, I was blown away by this DACs sound quality, even its built-in headphone output (with dedcated amp) sounds very good. Would be a nice match with Elise i would think
> ...


 
 Thanks R, the DAC212 is a work of art after reading its review and website links. Look at this thread, it is already compared with the Hugo Chord and LH Labs Geek Infinity.
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/771119/review-didit-dac212-dac-amp-incl-comparisons-with-chord-hugo-tt-soon-lh-pulse-infinity
  
 Problem is, I don't want the headphone amplifier inside a DAC, that takes the price to skies. Let's talk DACs  I will shoot you a PM, will include my research and we can take it from there 
  
 3000 Euros can get me so much more, I believe!


----------



## nephilim

shaffer said:


> Is it possible for you to run a dedicated line into your listening room?
> 
> [...]
> 
> In my case, the last signs of noise were eliminated with a Furutch power cord. I actually don't know if it's a real Furutech, as I bought the wire from China and terminated it myself, but out of all the cords I built, this is the only one that does the trick. I guess I'm saying that if you have a relationship with a high-performance shop, they may let you borrow several cords and see if any of them work for you. I was a non-believer util I heard it for myself.


 
  
 Dedicated line is difficult - I'd like to understand which component adds the hum and replace it then. Oh, the power cord... I improved the cord between the Furman power conditioner (which apparently focuses on high frequency disturbances and not that trusty 50Hz hum) and the Elise. It looks better but does nothing 
  
 Some good news, a pair of these tubes is on the way:
  

 (seller's photo)
  
 I hope the price is good


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> Dedicated line is difficult - I'd like to understand which component adds the hum and replace it then. Oh, the power cord... I improved the cord between the Furman power conditioner (which apparently focuses on high frequency disturbances and not that trusty 50Hz hum) and the Elise. It looks better but does nothing
> 
> Some good news, a pair of these tubes is on the way:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sorry to hear you're still plagued with the dreaded hum, nephilim...I sincerely hope you manage to find the culprit eventually - are your interconnects also well-shielded?
  
 Congrats on the ECC31s...so long as you only paid the average going rate (at the moment, lol!) for them - or even a bit more  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 - you will forget the price the moment you hear what these wonders do for the Elise...hum permitting!!
  
 ENJOY!


----------



## nephilim

Well, I paid about $130 for the pair. I hope they are worth it


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> Well, I paid about $130 for the pair. I hope they are worth it


 
  
 Worth every penny (cent), mon ami!!


----------



## MIKELAP

nephilim said:


> shaffer said:
> 
> 
> > Is it possible for you to run a dedicated line into your listening room?
> ...


 

 That pair to Canada was over $250.00CA good deal


----------



## i luvmusic 2

nephilim said:


> I would say it starts once the tubes are heated up. And I tried various driver and power tubes.


 
  I had a similar issue after few months using my BH Crack until i managed to reflow/resolder all the solder joint on all of the tubes sockets.Then after i installed the Speedball it's humming again so i know for sure that my soldering is SUCKS so i re-flow all the joint on SB pcb and where it is connected now my amp is DEAD QUIET.I'am not suggesting that the solder joints in your amp is crap mind you it was built by a PRO and if you open your amp that could VOID the warranty.


----------



## nephilim

I again went to the garden shed and connected the Elise to the outlet there (direct connection to the fuse box, i.e., a dedicated line): no hum! Hence I'm 98% sure, the Elise is fine. 2% are missing, as  in the garden it is louder than in the house. I need to switch off all fuses and find out which circuit introduces the hum.
  
 Got some new highres files and enjoy these via the HD800 right now. Pure joy


----------



## UntilThen

How relaxing enjoying music in the garden shed. Put up a hammock


----------



## Suuup

I've sent Lukasz 3 emails now, and he still hasn't replied. It's been over a week. Anyone know what's going on?


----------



## Shaffer

suuup said:


> I've sent Lukasz 3 emails now, and he still hasn't replied. It's been over a week. Anyone know what's going on?




Several of us were just talking about this in PM. We _think _that it being August and knowing how folks in that part of the world take month-long vacations, this may be it. It's certainly not like Lucasz, IME, to be unresponsive. This being said, it took Lucasz almost a week to reply to my first email, as the company was closed for a holiday.

Please don't misunderstand my comment; you and some others have a legitimate concern. I posted in the thread, as well, when I didn't get a relatively prompt reply. After that, everything went very smoothly. I genuinely hope it'll work out the same way for you and the other folks who want to buy the amp. On the positive side, it actually is worth waiting for.


----------



## JazzVinyl

suuup said:


> I've sent Lukasz 3 emails now, and he still hasn't replied. It's been over a week. Anyone know what's going on?


 
  
 I have sent 2 emails in the last two weeks asking what the status of my build is (I am in week 9) and I have gotten no response, as well.
  
 Am hoping that he is on Holiday.  Do agree with Shaffer that August is the month that Europe likes to take their Holiday, and many do indeed take 4 weeks in a row.
  
 So lets hope that's it.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Hope it's NOT this:
  
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33994483
  
 ....Grins.....


----------



## Shaffer

An interesting link about the 6SN7:

http://avclub.gr/forum/archive/index.php/t-4376.html


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks for the link Shaffer. Came across this once but didn't save it.


----------



## gibosi

It would appear that the above link was lifted verbatim from head-fi:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> It would appear that the above link was lifted verbatim from head-fi:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread




Don't mind telling you that I feel a little foolish.


----------



## UntilThen

^ Yeah to adhoc from Australia and this was done in 2005.
  
 How's everyone enjoying their Elise. Anymore impressions? Especially compared to Crack or Woo Wa2 or La Figaro 339. Share your joy.


----------



## UntilThen

OMG Lukasz replied. He just came back from holidays and apologise for late response. No problem Lukasz hope you had a great holiday. 
  
 My order's through. He said 6 weeks but that's ok. No problem at all. 8 weeks won't kill me too. On 2nd thought it might lol.
  
 H1, Shaffer and Raven....THANK YOU. You deserve some koalas and kangaroos.
  
 This community is amazing. You guys are amazing for helping me.


----------



## Shaffer

^^^ Excellent news, UT. Hopefully, he contacted the other chaps, as well. It would make sense that he did.

Now, aren't you glad now that you bought _a pair_ of the Sylvanias?


----------



## UntilThen

Yes I'm sure Lukasz will contact them. He's very friendly, courteous and professional in his dealings.
  
 I've got 4 matched RCA 6SN7GTB coin base coming too. They took it out of some big church organ. They must sound musical right? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




 And a pair of the GE JAN 6AS7GA from Parts Express. I'm off to a flying start but I might not need them since everyone says the stock tubes sound good. After all they are Tung Sols drivers even tho it's reissue.
  
 Really make sense when you have the Darkvoice 336se to step up to the Elise. They use the same tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Yes I'm sure Lukasz will contact them. He's very friendly, courteous and professional in his dealings.




Absolutely.



> I've got 4 matched RCA 6SN7GTB coin base coming too. They took it out of some big church organ. They must sound musical right? :bigsmile_face:




I have a pair of those made for Wurlitzer. They're fun to listen with.



> And a pair of the GE JAN 6AS7GA from Parts Express. I'm off to a flying start but I might not need them since everyone says the stock tubes sound good. After all they are Tung Sols drivers even tho it's reissue.




It'll give you more to play with, plus they sound different than the stock tubes. Warmer.



> Really make sense when you have the Darkvoice 336se to step up to the Elise. They use the same tubes.




It's a completely different circuit and the tubes are not implemented identically. The passive parts are of much higher quality in the Elise, as well. Personally, I still think the amp is under-priced.

You read my review and know that I genuanely like the DV. Some things, however, cannot be changed, The Miata is a great little roadster, but it's no comparison to a pre-EPS BoxterS. Both are fun, but one has a significantly wider performance envelope.

Edit: It just occurred to me that others may be unsure on a similar basis, so let me give a real world, audio example. Until somewhat recently, two output tubes were used in non-headphone, high-performance amplifiers - EL-34 and 6550. Both the Audio Research Classic 60 and Conrad-Johnson Premier 11 used a pair of 6550s per channel. Yet, the two couldn't sound more different. I used these older examples, as both sold very well and folks may come across them in the better shops. Both amplifiers were based on different circuits, both used different parts from the capacitors to the transformers, which resulted in very different sound. And I mean very different. In this situation, neither was clearly better than the other; it came down to preference. In our case, however, the Elise is in a different league.


----------



## UntilThen

Well I was mapping my next upgrade to the La Figaro 339 until I met you. I wouldn't have known about Elise if you didn't pop into the Darkvoice thread. Honestly I think I would have been happy with either of the tube amps with my hd650. But reading through the impressions here, nearly everyone seems to be really ecstatic with the Elise pairing with high end headphones such as the hd800 and T1. I love my hd650 and Lukasz assured me I'll be happy pairing the Elise with it.
  
 I'm pretty sure I make the right choice. I can't wait to find out for myself.


----------



## JazzVinyl

I got a reply from Lukasz as well.  He said my amp was number 3 in the pipeline...about 2 more weeks for completion.
  
 Woo-Hoo!


----------



## UntilThen

Exciting I see you're a beyer and senns guy too as I am. I have the dt880.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Well I was mapping my next upgrade to the La Figaro 339 until I met you. I wouldn't have known about Elise if you didn't pop into the Darkvoice thread. Honestly I think I would have been happy with either of the tube amps with my hd650. But reading through the impressions here, nearly everyone seems to be really ecstatic with the Elise pairing with high end headphones such as the hd800 and T1. I love my hd650 and Lukasz assured me I'll be happy pairing the Elise with it.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I make the right choice. I can't wait to find out for myself.




I'd considered a La Figaro, myself, but couldn't get over the dual volume knobs, the suspicious looking parts inside - a custom with better parts is ~$500 more - and the fact that a ~$700 amp (sans shipping) comes with substandard tubes. 

Speaking of better headphones, I'm 90% sure that I'm going to be listing my V200 in the classifieds and buying T1 with the proceeds. Maybe even over the weekend. I've barely used the Vio at all since getting the Elise. It was my favorite amp. [sigh]


----------



## UntilThen

The magic of tube amp. Elise over the V200...that bad huh. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Should be easy to sell the V200. Perfect pairing for the LCD2.


----------



## Suuup

Lukasz wrote to me too, said it'd be another 2 weeks.


----------



## Shaffer

suuup said:


> Lukasz wrote to me too, said it'd be another 2 weeks.




It'll be interesting to know your serial number, once the amp arrives.


----------



## hypnos1

Hey guys...you've all beaten me to the good news...but that's OK - in fact WONDERFUL ('cos I was getting a little concerned for you myself, and was gonna try and find a telephone number if none of us had had any reply by Monday!!).
  
 Am so glad it didn't come to that, lol...
  
 Shaffer was bang on re the holiday period...but what really messed us all up was the failure of their automated info response system! (have hinted this definitely needs to be sorted for _next_ time!!).
  
 Anyway, I am SO glad things are now back on track, albeit with the inevitable delay in production...thanks for hanging in there guys - and well done! I can assure you the delay/wait will be well worth it.
  
 Cheers guys,
  
 CJ...(breathes a sigh of relief...).
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## aneep

A big hi to everyone in this Elise thread. This is probably one of the most informative threads I've read on the head-fi, and one of the most wel-mannered. I am very interested in the Elise and have almost made up my mind to pull the trigger on the Elise. However, I am also planning to use the Elise as a preamp to connect to my active speakers. 
 Has anyone used the Elise as a preamp? My main concern is that my speakers are very sensitive to noise (pick up the slightest hum) and have very high gain. I would be very grateful if some of you could give your experience with the Elise - as a preamp.
 Cheers


----------



## mordy

Hi aneep,
  
 I am using my 009 Elise almost exclusively as a preamp with great results. I do not have any problems with hum, but, with this caveat:
  
 If I turn up the volume on the Elise all the way (5:30pm) and listen through my headphones without music playing, there is a noticeable hum. Turning down the Elise volume to 3pm makes almost all of the hum disappear. However, at these levels I would damage my ears listening through headphones- way too loud. The loudest I can go with my low Z Yamaha 220 headphones is 11-12 am and many times less, depending on the music source. At this volume level there is no hum.
  
 Using the Elise as a preamp i leave the Elise volume at 3pm. My power amp (an old 1980's 110W Sony amp) has a volume meter readout - don't know if it is linear or not. Anyhow keeping the volume at 20-40% is more than enough; going to 50-60% is VERY loud. Without music playing, the hum becomes audible at 60% and up, but if I dare play so loud, the music masks the hum.
  
 The amp also has a quick reading watt meter bar graph read-out. Most of my listening (with average sensitivity speakers) is done at under 5W(!). Setting the amp to 60% volume results in watt reading peaks up to 100W.
  
 The Elise is hooked up into a switchable equalizer loop, and I can instantly switch from the Elise to the built in ss preamp and back. The difference is akin to a good Champagne compared to a flat bottle of soda (pop).
  
 I can highly recommend the Elise.


----------



## mordy

Hi,
  
 Having different tubes I cannot resist trying different combinations, even though I am petty much convinced that the optimal setup for me at this time is C3g drivers and Chatham 6AS7G power tubes. (I know there is supposedly better, but hey, I only spent $50 for my tube complement.)
  
 The re-issue Tung Sol that came with the amp are very musical, but not as detailed as the C3g tubes. I put them in again, together with the Chats. A new observation: The re-issue 6SN7GT slowed down the amp. Don't know how to describe it - comparing the gait of an athletic 30 year old to an old man; slow (syrupy[?].
  
 The music did not react quickly, everything slowed down. Strange... Lazy electrons? ленивые электроны? lenivyye elektrony?
  
 Don't know what the proper hi-fi speak is for this: Quickness, speed, quick reflexes, microdynamics? I am sure that u get the idea......
  
 Have fun!


----------



## UntilThen

The way you describe the Tung Sol reissue slow and syrupy is probably what I'm looking for.  
 Listening to Andrea Bocelli now with my Darkvoice and I'm in a dreamy mode.
  
 Can't believe you got your C3g and Chatham 6AS7G for only $50. I look at eBay for the Chathams and they are almost non existent or very expensive.


----------



## UntilThen

Welcome aneep and I agree this is a very friendly and helpful forum.


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> I again went to the garden shed and connected the Elise to the outlet there (direct connection to the fuse box, i.e., a dedicated line): no hum! Hence I'm 98% sure, the Elise is fine. 2% are missing, as  in the garden it is louder than in the house. I need to switch off all fuses and find out which circuit introduces the hum.
> 
> Got some new highres files and enjoy these via the HD800 right now. Pure joy


 
  
 Pure joy is what I've been experiencing for (what seems!) a long time now...I'm wondering just what words you will be searching for when those ECC31s arrive, lol!
  
 By the way, n, which adapters have you gone for?...
  


shaffer said:


> I'd considered a La Figaro, myself, but couldn't get over the dual volume knobs, the suspicious looking parts inside - a custom with better parts is ~$500 more - and the fact that a ~$700 amp (sans shipping) comes with substandard tubes.
> 
> Speaking of better headphones, I'm 90% sure that I'm going to be listing my V200 in the classifieds and buying T1 with the proceeds. Maybe even over the weekend. I've barely used the Vio at all since getting the Elise. It was my favorite amp. [sigh]


 
  
 Ah, 007...another T1 convert?...good man! But now you must find something else to part with - as you were cruelly denied use of the C3g, you owe it to yourself to be blessed with the even more magical ECC31. And you richly deserve such rewards!...keep a close eye on ebay - a really nice looking used one has just gone for £25!, which leaves some lucky person plenty of leeway towards the second one. These tubes take the Elise/T1 combination to amazing new heights...trust me!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  


aneep said:


> A big hi to everyone in this Elise thread. This is probably one of the most informative threads I've read on the head-fi, and one of the most wel-mannered. I am very interested in the Elise and have almost made up my mind to pull the trigger on the Elise. However, I am also planning to use the Elise as a preamp to connect to my active speakers.
> Has anyone used the Elise as a preamp? My main concern is that my speakers are very sensitive to noise (pick up the slightest hum) and have very high gain. I would be very grateful if some of you could give your experience with the Elise - as a preamp.
> Cheers


 
  
 Welcome to the thread, aneep...and thanks for your very kind, encouraging words - I am so glad we are building a really good crew here.
  
 As you will have gathered from feedback so far - from some very happy people! - I doubt you would find anything to match the Elise anywhere near the money. And as a preamp, just like mordy, for me it performs brilliantly. Outputting at about 12-1 o'clock volume on Elise into my Vincent integrated SS amp the result is phenomenal.
  
 So good luck with your deliberations - and I hope you join us...
  
 CJ


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 To get these prices you need to have patience, sometimes buy used tubes, sometimes buy one at a time, but it is doable.
  
 Just went to Ebay, typed in Chatham 6AS7G, clicked, went to the left column, clicked on Sold Listings, and this is what I found:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=Chatham%206AS7G&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684
  
 As you can see, one tube went for $10, another for $25 in the very near past.
  
 Re the C3g, I went to Google and typed in German Ebay; then I searched for C3g tubes. About two months ago I bought a used pair that tested well for $30 including shipping.
  
 Truth is that those tubes I mentioned for $50 were bought in the last two years, however, with patience it is still possible to find good deals.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks for the tip Mordy. I see a lot of recommendations for ideal tubes for the Elise here. It's going to be fun with tube rolling.


----------



## nephilim

hypnos1 said:


> By the way, n, which adapters have you gone for?...


 
  
 I ordered the ones you mentioned recently. I got my 7N7 adapters from this seller, too.
  
 I hate the topic but as it's not solved yet, it's still on my mind... hum!!! Note, that I still believe the Elise is perfectly fine and it's something in my house. So here is the latest status: Today I switched off all fuses except the one to the listening room... hum! I went to the basement (next to the fuse box) and connected the Elise to an outlet next to the fuses - still hum. Then I realized that the electricity meter in the fuse box makes a hum with exactly the same frequency (100Hz). I will contact my energy provider and ask for a replacement. Maybe the meter is faulty and causes the hum. I guess my check in the garden shed was a false positive (or negative?). It was probably a bit too loud to clearly notice the hum.
  
 So I am still optimistic that one day my Elise will be as quiet as yours.


----------



## aneep

>


 
 Thanks for that resounding endorsement Mordy. This is just what I was looking for. I guess, Lukasz is getting one more order this weekend 


mordy said:


> Hi aneep,
> 
> I am using my 009 Elise almost exclusively as a preamp with great results. I do not have any problems with hum, but, with this caveat:
> 
> ...


----------



## aneep

hypnos1 said:


> Pure joy is what I've been experiencing for (what seems!) a long time now...I'm wondering just what words you will be searching for when those ECC31s arrive, lol!
> 
> By the way, n, which adapters have you gone for?...
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks HYPNOS1, the amount of information you have posted on this thread is amazing.


----------



## nephilim

While my Elise (and a beer) is helping me to relax after a long day I wonder what the next 'big thing' from Feliks Audio will be. What about a balanced Elise?!


----------



## UntilThen

Slow down Nep. I'm still waiting on my Elise. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 How many hours have you got on your Elise? Is it sounding better.


----------



## nephilim

Hmm, should be around 100h now. I did notice changes in the way the amp sounds during the first weeks - luckily to the better  In the recent past I guess I have played too much with different tubes and a major headphone upgrade to reliably tell whether the amp changed or the boundary conditions. Looking forward to the ECC31 - either those or the currentl C3g-S combined with the Chatham 6AS7G will be my end-game - hopefully. Common sense tells me not to invest more money into this anachronistic tube amp


----------



## UntilThen

Yes you've gone about in a big way with those 2 items and choice tubes. Don't you want to have enough tubes to light up the Christmas tree?


----------



## nephilim

I might consider this as long as the Christmas tree will sound as good as this sweet black beauty


----------



## UntilThen

I have a question. When you say this is a SE OTL amp. What does SE means and what does it do.


----------



## MIKELAP

untilthen said:


> I have a question. When you say this is a SE OTL amp. What does SE means and what does it do.


 
 http://nobleamps.com/sevspp.html           http://www.audiodesignguide.com/otl/otl.html


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Mike that is informational.


----------



## Lord Raven

untilthen said:


> OMG Lukasz replied. He just came back from holidays and apologise for late response. No problem Lukasz hope you had a great holiday.
> 
> My order's through. He said 6 weeks but that's ok. No problem at all. 8 weeks won't kill me too. On 2nd thought it might lol.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Haha I just provided the emotional support  Good luck with the long wait, also look into tubes to role, and you owe me one now 
  
 Cheers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 LR


----------



## UntilThen

That's a big contribution Raven, providing emotional support. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 My tubes cost more than my Darkvoice now and I still haven't look at 7N7, 6CG7, 6922 alternatives. Already bought those adapters.


----------



## UntilThen

http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/news/news-detail/article/the-2nd-generation-beyerdynamic-t-1-is-coming.html
  
  
 So there is a 2nd gen Beyer T1 coming...


----------



## SonicTrance

untilthen said:


> http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/news/news-detail/article/the-2nd-generation-beyerdynamic-t-1-is-coming.html
> 
> 
> 
> So there is a 2nd gen Beyer T1 coming...




And it says the cable is removeable (finally!). But it doesn't look removeable to me...


----------



## UntilThen

You've to take their word for it. I'm more excited in the sound department tuning.

'with a touch more warmth and musicality' 'carefully intensified bass'


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> I ordered the ones you mentioned recently. I got my 7N7 adapters from this seller, too.
> 
> I hate the topic but as it's not solved yet, it's still on my mind... hum!!! Note, that I still believe the Elise is perfectly fine and it's something in my house. So here is the latest status: Today I switched off all fuses except the one to the listening room... hum! I went to the basement (next to the fuse box) and connected the Elise to an outlet next to the fuses - still hum. Then I realized that the electricity meter in the fuse box makes a hum with exactly the same frequency (100Hz). I will contact my energy provider and ask for a replacement. Maybe the meter is faulty and causes the hum. I guess my check in the garden shed was a false positive (or negative?). It was probably a bit too loud to clearly notice the hum.
> 
> So I am still optimistic that one day my Elise will be as quiet as yours.


 
  
 I too remain optimistic, n...by the way, have you tried the amp round a friend's house at all? If not, give it a try...confirm it once and for all - assuming said friend has a nice quiet mains!!
  


aneep said:


> Thanks HYPNOS1, the amount of information you have posted on this thread is amazing.


 
 Thx a...only down to ploughing through MANY hundreds of different thread posts here on head-fi; the advice and help especially of the guys over at the LD Tube Rolling Guide, and MANY late night sessions torturing two poor amps lol! (2 years ago I thought valves (ie 'tubes'!) belonged in a museum...what a rebirth - thank goodness!!).
  


nephilim said:


> While my Elise (and a beer) is helping me to relax after a long day I wonder what the next 'big thing' from Feliks Audio will be. What about a balanced Elise?!


 
  
 Once the current model has begun to pay its way, and suppliers prove to be 100% reliable (if that's ever possible!), I'm sure balanced out could well be one of the options to consider. But to tell the truth, I suspect the cost would need to double in order to get only a slight improvement over what I personally am now getting from my amp...I will NOT be needing (nor wanting) to spend any more than I have already - I am more than content...


----------



## Renderman

lord raven said:


> I use a 22uf 16v capacitor in series to my Focal Utopia No.7 Beryllium tweeters called TBe for DC protection
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I took a photo of the preliminary speaker filter I made. All mundorf components 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Maybe it will inspire you to make something similar for your speakers 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Good luck!


----------



## SonicTrance

untilthen said:


> You've to take their word for it. I'm more excited in the sound department tuning.
> 
> 'with a touch more warmth and musicality' 'carefully intensified bass'




Yes, of course. Though I've never heard the original T1's, It's gonna be fun to read reviews on this.


----------



## Lord Raven

renderman said:


> I took a photo of the preliminary speaker filter I made. All mundorf components   Maybe it will inspire you to make something similar for your speakers
> 
> 
> 
> ...




BEAUTIFUL  I think Yes, I can try. Do they have a rating around 22uf 16-25 volts?


----------



## Renderman

sonictrance said:


> Yes, of course. Though I've never heard the original T1's, It's gonna be fun to read reviews on this.


 
 Yes, going to be fun indeed! I'm really curious if they managed to improve the T1's! (Starts saving...)
  


lord raven said:


> BEAUTIFUL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hey thanks! I'll see what i've got, let me PM you on that


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> You've to take their word for it. I'm more excited in the sound department tuning.
> 
> 'with a touch more warmth and musicality' 'carefully intensified bass'


 
  
 Hmmm...what's the betting they've had to 're-tune' based on how they perform in *SS* amps - I should imagine they DO need it for most of THOSE, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 But I'm not so sure about our OTL tube jobs - especially given the "fine tuning" that can be done just by changing tubes! And as for "warmth, musicality and intensified bass", those Beyer people have obviously no idea whatsoever that all these can come simply by using the ECC31 (or 32/CV181 - at a cost!!)...mind you they just _might, _but of course they wouldn't let on!
 Still, I suppose they have to cater for the majority who haven't discovered these secrets yet!!
  
 ps. If anyone does go for the MK2 cans...DO NOT go for the ECC31s - the bass would totally destroy your eardrums!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 CHEERS!!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm inclined to think you're right H1. I think the T1 as it stands now are a perfect pairing with the Elise. Looking at the amazon prices now more bargains can be had for current T1 stocks as the 2nd gen model approaches. The savings can then be used to buy better tubes for the Elise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 All my headphones were bought after I audition it at my local headphone store. Their prices are one of the best I've seen. I always believe if you're going to buy a good pair of headphone you should endeavour to try it beforehand. So I'll lug the Elise along when the time comes .....I need to hear it with the Elise


----------



## CITIZENLIN

E17 is 40 hrs in with stock tubes on Elise. I like it better with T1 and DT880 600 over HD650 vs. T1 and HD650 over DT880 using LD MK IV.  Stock tubes with H650 sound too warm/dark for me the low bleed into mid. That problem was taking care off by C3Gs combo.
  
 Elise has special magic sound that other amps in similar price point do not possess. What I mean by Magic sound of Elise is specal Ambience sound  that give you vivid sense of space /stage/sound studio. Elise magic sound is not subtle, as soon as you put your HP on , you will feel the magic immediately.  
  
       I let one of my relative listen to my HP setup then he said this     "I really like your surround headphone, can you buy it at BESTBUY? "  
  
  LD MK IV does have same magic sound but  All moons and stars need to be aligned to get it not organic magic sound like Elise.
 It was delightful 40 hrs so far and I have no doubt that I am continue to enjoy and love THE MAGIC SOUND OF ELISE.
  
 C3Gs adapters work like a charm. THANKS to hypnos1
  
  
  
 #17


----------



## UntilThen

Lin, that's really good impressions on Elise and headphones. Can't wait to get mine.


----------



## JazzVinyl

citizenlin said:


> E17 is 40 hrs in with stock tubes on Elise. I like it better with T1 and DT880 600 over HD650 vs. T1 and HD650 over DT880 using LD MK IV.  Stock tubes with H650 sound too warm/dark for me the low bleed into mid. That problem was taking care off by C3Gs combo.
> 
> #17


 

 Has we dreaming of my Elise, too 
  
  
 Can't wait!!


----------



## CITIZENLIN

untilthen said:


> Lin, that's really good impressions on Elise and headphones. Can't wait to get mine.


 
 Hello UThen
  
 The more you hang out here, the more you will want it NOWWW. haha, Stay away from here, until you get your Elise.


jazzvinyl said:


> Has we dreaming of my Elise, too
> 
> 
> Can't wait!!


 
 Hey JVinyl
  
 Long time no see, Are you waiting for Elise too? WOW....Most of core members from LD Tube rolling are converted to E. All I can say to you is " Elise is worth the wait".


----------



## hypnos1

citizenlin said:


> E17 is 40 hrs in with stock tubes on Elise. I like it better with T1 and DT880 600 over HD650 vs. T1 and HD650 over DT880 using LD MK IV.  Stock tubes with H650 sound too warm/dark for me the low bleed into mid. That problem was taking care off by C3Gs combo.
> 
> Elise has special magic sound that other amps in similar price point do not possess. What I mean by Magic sound of Elise is specal Ambience sound  that give you vivid sense of space /stage/sound studio. Elise magic sound is not subtle, as soon as you put your HP on , you will feel the magic immediately.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi C..."MAGIC SOUND"?...I like it lol!! And that's with just 40hrs on everything? - boy, are you in for a treat! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Glad you agree she leaves the MKIV behind...
  


citizenlin said:


> Hey JVinyl
> 
> Long time no see, Are you waiting for Elise too? WOW....Most of core members from LD Tube rolling are converted to E. All I can say to you is " Elise is worth the wait".


 
  
 Yeah, at this rate of LD conversion I'm gonna have to start looking over my shoulder - there could well be a few ninja assassins lurking in the dark, lol!...(or, rather, the Chinese equivalent..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). Ah well, the sacrifices we make...


----------



## CITIZENLIN

hypnos1 said:


> Hi C..."MAGIC SOUND"?...I like it lol!! And that's with just 40hrs on everything? - boy, are you in for a treat!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hello hypnos1
  
 Thanks for the adapters , they are working great. I am on my 3rd days with C3gs setup. One of 2 Tung Sol Chatham 2399 I got  was a bad. I haven't got the chance to listen to TS Chatham. Yes, I am about 45 hrs in now. Actually there was "Magic Sound" from day one and it hasn't change much yet. Ok ok ok I will try ECC31 ...... sigh....... or I must get ECC31 haha


----------



## hypnos1

citizenlin said:


> Hello hypnos1
> 
> Thanks for the adapters , they are working great. I am on my 3rd days with C3gs setup. One of 2 Tung Sol Chatham 2399 I got  was a bad. I haven't got the chance to listen to TS Chatham. Yes, I am about 45 hrs in now. Actually there was "Magic Sound" from day one and it hasn't change much yet. Ok ok ok I will try ECC31 ...... sigh....... or I must get ECC31 haha


 
  
 That's SAD news indeed re the 2399, *C*...hope you got refund or chance of a replacement - those C3gs cry out for top-flight powers!...let alone WHEN you get the ECC31s!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## gibosi

citizenlin said:


> Thanks for the adapters , they are working great. I am on my 3rd days with C3gs setup. One of 2 Tung Sol Chatham 2399 I got  was a bad. I haven't got the chance to listen to TS Chatham. Yes, I am about 45 hrs in now. Actually there was "Magic Sound" from day one and it hasn't change much yet. Ok ok ok I will try ECC31 ...... sigh....... or I must get ECC31 haha


 
  
 If that 2399 is just noisy, I suggest you scrape or sand the pins. Even if they look nice and shiny, a good cleaning often helps. Also, I have found the purple DeoxIT solution to be very helpful with noisy power tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

I already feel stupid for asking this, but what's new? 

I picked up a pair of 6AS7G for a grand total of $9.38 shipped. An older Sylvania and a ca.74 RCA. When the Sylvania is lit, it looks identical to my JAN Chathams, but it has grey plates and no copper rods. Could the Sylvania have been made by Chatham?


----------



## nephilim

Today my ECC31 arrived. The seller told me they are Mullards, but the top looks different from the pictures shown here previously:
  

  


 Did I get the "correct" tubes?
  
 edit: OK, it's post 2107 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/732875/feliks-audio-elise-previously-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype/2100#post_11831794)... my tubes have this "pan" getter, too. Apparently it's just the radiators looking differently.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> I already feel stupid for asking this, but what's new?
> 
> I picked up a pair of 6AS7G for a grand total of $9.38 shipped. An older Sylvania and a ca.74 RCA. When the Sylvania is lit, it looks identical to my JAN Chathams, but it has grey plates and no copper rods. Could the Sylvania have been made by Chatham?


 
  
 I assume the Sylvania has bottom getters and no sheet metal shields below the bottom mica spacer?  So far, I have never seen a Chatham that didn't have copper grid posts, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. lol. One more thing to check... One getter or two?  The RCA's I have seen with bottom getters have only one getter. Chathams always have two, like so:


----------



## gibosi

nephilim said:


> Today my ECC31 arrived. The seller told me they are Mullards, but the top looks different from the pictures shown here previously:
> 
> Did I get the "correct" tubes?
> 
> edit: OK, it's post 2107 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/732875/feliks-audio-elise-previously-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype/2100#post_11831794)... my tubes have this "pan" getter, too. Apparently it's just the radiators looking differently.


 
  
 Yes, the "D" on an NR73 (Navy Receiving tube #73 = ECC31) indicates Mullard's Blackburn factory. And to my knowledge, the NR73 was manufactured only by Mullard. No other company manufactured these tubes. I have noticed that there is some variation in the heat radiators above the top mica spacer, probably related to the date of manufacture.


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> Today my ECC31 arrived. The seller told me they are Mullards, but the top looks different from the pictures shown here previously:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## hypnos1

hypnos1 said:


>


 
  
 Hi n.
  
 Yes indeed...fine - but haven't seen those fins before! There certainly were quite a few variations in construction, to be sure!!
  
 At first the '1280' threw me - usually it's CV128*5*, but it appears to be the British Admiralty code number...
  
 All you need now are the adapters, and then it should (hopefully!) be WOW time...can't wait for your own impressions though...


----------



## nephilim

Many thanks for the clarification! I really hope those adapters are coming soon


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> I assume the Sylvania has bottom getters and no sheet metal shields below the bottom mica spacer?  So far, I have never seen a Chatham that didn't have copper grid posts, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. lol. One more thing to check... One getter or two?  The RCA's I have seen with bottom getters have only one getter. Chathams always have two, like so:




The tube has the metal shields and no dual bottom getters. I knew it was too good to be true. Thank you very much for the clarification.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> The tube has the metal shields and no dual bottom getters. I knew it was too good to be true. Thank you very much for the clarification.


 
  
 How to recognize a Chatham 6AS7:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/732875/feliks-audio-elise-previously-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype/1605#post_11726805


----------



## UntilThen

Ah nice tubes discussions while I wait for the Elise. There seems to be more 6SN7 on eBay now and those are gorgeous looking pair of tubes Nep.


----------



## Shaffer

Can a 6922/6DJ8 work in our amps as a driver with an adapter?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Can a 6922/6DJ8 work in our amps as a driver with an adapter?


 
  
 You sure can, and this includes the 6N23P, the Russian version of the 6922. Using the same adapter, you can also run the ECC804, which is a very nice tube for the money. And if you have some 6H30-type tubes laying around, they too will work fine as drivers, again using the same adapter.
  
Happy tube rolling!


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> shaffer said:
> 
> 
> > Can a 6922/6DJ8 work in our amps as a driver with an adapter?
> ...


 

 It will never ends will it lol just tried 6GU7 on WA2 as drivers sounds good but the 6H30 Pi buzz Heater current is .850 ma to much i guess? gibosi cant thank you enough for all those tube rollin suggestions thanks.


----------



## MIKELAP

From what i found out heater current for the 6gu7 is .600 m.a. same as 6SN7 if im not mistaken and the 6H30Pi heater current is .850 ma so i guess its to much .


----------



## gibosi

mikelap said:


> From what i found out heater current for the 6gu7 is .600 m.a. same as 6SN7 if im not mistaken and the 6H30Pi heater current is .850 ma so i guess its to much .


 
  
 Since the WA2 is designed for 6922/6DJ8, the 6H30 might draw too much heater current for that amp. But since it can handle 6SN7/6GU7, .850A might be ok. Have to ask Woo. However, the Elise can handle the ECC32, which draws .950A, so the 6H30 is well within spec.


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> I again went to the garden shed and connected the Elise to the outlet there (direct connection to the fuse box, i.e., a dedicated line): no hum! Hence I'm 98% sure, the Elise is fine. 2% are missing, as  in the garden it is louder than in the house. I need to switch off all fuses and find out which circuit introduces the hum.
> 
> Got some new highres files and enjoy these via the HD800 right now. Pure joy


 
  
 Hi n...just to whet your appetite further for your upcoming treat!...
  
 Your mention of hi-res files has prompted me (finally!) to put my now well burned in ECC31s + adapters to the ultimate test - have been enjoying too much my favourite standard 48K test tracks! (and luckily without having to escape to the garden shed, lol).
  
 And 'WOW' hardly covers it...especially the phenomenal bass. I now know for sure what is meant by "sub" bass...either 'subterranean', or gibosi's 'subwoofer' bass. That on the HDTracks 2013 free Sampler's 'Another Country' (24bit, 96KHz) fair took me by surprise, along with the widest, deepest, most 3D 'holographic' soundstage I have ever heard. Truly amazing...(this bass response proved to me once and for all that the T1s do NOT need the "intensified bass" of the 2nd gen model, IF the rest of the gear is right!).
  
 Once AGAIN, I am _almost_ lost for words..
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway, a pic of my _probable_ last (and hopefully _ever_lasting) set up   :
  

  
 As you can see, the left Mullard ECC31(branded QTL) looks quite a bit different to the much earlier Mullard NR73/CV1285 on the right. But they both sound equally magical, and combine to perfection...hence my suggestion to folks to not worry about 'matched' pairs. Singles will probably be easier to find, and cheaper - especially 'good' used ones - regardless of year or brand name (they're ALL Mullards)...unless you're lucky enough to stumble upon the likes of the recent NOS pairs that went on ebay for $115 and $125!
  
 CHEERS everyone...and hope more of you get your Elises VERY soon...


----------



## UntilThen

That is one nice picture of Elise with those tubes and headphone. My Elise is coming soon. Just 5 light years away.


----------



## Suuup

hypnos1 said:


> Hi n...just to whet your appetite further for your upcoming treat!...
> 
> Your mention of hi-res files has prompted me (finally!) to put my now well burned in ECC31s + adapters to the ultimate test - have been enjoying too much my favourite standard 48K test tracks! (and luckily without having to escape to the garden shed, lol).
> 
> ...


 
 Do you have any more pics of the Elise? I can't wait to get it.


----------



## nephilim

Beautiful setup, Colin! Can't wait to receive the adapters! I really hope the ECC31 does not fry our trafos


----------



## K4RL

hypnos1 said:


> Hi n...just to whet your appetite further for your upcoming treat!...
> 
> Your mention of hi-res files has prompted me (finally!) to put my now well burned in ECC31s + adapters to the ultimate test - have been enjoying too much my favourite standard 48K test tracks! (and luckily without having to escape to the garden shed, lol).
> 
> ...


 
 Wow, killer pic. Interesting to see that you've migrated to another tube after singing such praise for the C3Gs. I'm still over here on the stock tubes [bone stock - not even the TS reissue tubes], although one of them is QUITE sensitive to vibration. For example, I'm hearing pinging in my right ear with every keystroke of this message. I might be obligated to upgrade if it doesn't dissipate with further burn-in. Is there any truth to the concerns regarding how the Elise will hold up long-term with the ECC31s? How about C3Gs?


----------



## hypnos1

Thanks guys for your appreciation...
  
 Quote:


untilthen said:


> That is one nice picture of Elise with those tubes and headphone. My Elise is coming soon. Just 5 light years away.


 
 Yeah UT...that wait certainly can seem like it...especially when I keep rubbing it in, lol!...sorry  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (but this is one of those rare instances where the destination *IS* better than the journey - unless it involves a flight, that is!!).
  


suuup said:


> Do you have any more pics of the Elise? I can't wait to get it.


 
  
 Your wish is my command, S....below...
  


nephilim said:


> Beautiful setup, Colin! Can't wait to receive the adapters! I really hope the ECC31 does not fry our trafos


 
  
 Hi n....although the Feliks guys can't of course officially say so, I have had confirmation that the Elise has been constructed with a fair degree of "buffer". I have been running mine with a good many 5+ hrs sessions now, with no hint of anything adverse. She does run hotter, of course - the trafo housing reaching about 42C (can just about keep my hands on it), and the case just below that. Heat can of course be an enemy of electronics, but I don't honestly believe these temperatures to be _too_ excessive...any supremos got any views on such temps??...
  


k4rl said:


> Wow, killer pic. Interesting to see that you've migrated to another tube after singing such praise for the C3Gs. I'm still over here on the stock tubes [bone stock - not even the TS reissue tubes], although one of them is QUITE sensitive to vibration. For example, I'm hearing pinging in my right ear with every keystroke of this message. I might be obligated to upgrade if it doesn't dissipate with further burn-in. Is there any truth to the concerns regarding how the Elise will hold up long-term with the ECC31s? How about C3Gs?


 
  
 Yes indeed, K4RL...I never dreamt I would find (thanks to gibosi) an affordable (relatively) tube to beat the C3g, and feel somewhat guilty and a real traitor...but then, as has been said before by others - there's _always_ better!!
  
 HOWEVER...as I mentioned a while ago, if the gold-pin Lorenz can be got for $19 + $9 shipping, this must be the better value-for-money - they will still beat IMHO almost _any_ 6SN7, at _any _price! (as confirmed by most who went over to the C3g tube on the LittleDot Tube Rolling Thread, and now getting praises over at the 'For 6AS7G tube rollers' thread).
 For those who have any heat concerns, this is the tube to go for...except there aren't any commercially available adapters - I have to make them for you!!
  
 Re. the heat aspect, please see above...
  
  
 And now for the other pics I promised Suuup   :
  
               1.    PsVane CV181 TII drivers/GEC CV2523 (A1834/6AS7G) powers
  

  
             2.   1x stock, 1x metal-based Melz drivers/Chatham 6AS7G powers

  
          3.   2x Siemens C3g'S' drivers/GEC powers (as in #1)

  
 Appetite whetted?   CHEERS!


----------



## UntilThen

Awww that first picture with PsVane CV181 TII is amazing. Looks gorgeous how does it sound?
  
 No problem H1. You're not rubbing it in at all. I'm enjoying all your feedback. I was just kidding about the wait. I have at least the Darkvoice 336se for now and am still enjoying it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I wonder if you would do the C3gs adapters. I'd gladly pay for it workmanship included of course. Such quality workmanship should be paid for. No pressure but do let me know.


----------



## SonicTrance

hypnos1 said:


> 2.   1x stock, 1x metal-based Melz drivers/Chatham 6AS7G powers


 
 Does the Chatham 6AS7G with top mounted getter sound any different from the one with bottom mounted getter? You don't see those top mounted versions very often...


----------



## Suuup

The Elise looks absolutely amazing, thanks Hypnos.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Awww that first picture with PsVane CV181 TII is amazing. Looks gorgeous how does it sound?
> 
> No problem H1. You're not rubbing it in at all. I'm enjoying all your feedback. I was just kidding about the wait. I have at least the Darkvoice 336se for now and am still enjoying it.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT...yes, for me the best-looking tubes by far - if only they sounded as good as the 'proper' CV181 (ECC32, ECC31)!! These were my favourite until I managed to get the C3gs to work. They give a nicely balanced sound, with good clarity and extension...but are rather light in presentation, without the same dynamics or detail of the C3g - and especially compared to the ECC31. But for those with extra-sensitive hearing, or those who prefer a less 'full' sound, I think they would be ideal. The price new is probably a bit of a downer though, and I haven't ever seen any used ones on offer (but will probably be moving mine on in the near future!).
  
 If you do definitely decide to go the C3g route however, just PM me...
  


sonictrance said:


> Does the Chatham 6AS7G with top mounted getter sound any different from the one with bottom mounted getter? You don't see those top mounted versions very often...


 
  
 Hi MX.
  
 It's a good while now since I had them in the hot seat, but from what I can remember I didn't notice any particular difference between 'em...they're all VERY good indeed...not all that far off the MUCH more expensive GECs IMHO!


----------



## SonicTrance

hypnos1 said:


> Hi MX.
> 
> It's a good while now since I had them in the hot seat, but from what I can remember I didn't notice any particular difference between 'em...they're all VERY good indeed...not all that far off the MUCH more expensive GECs IMHO!


 
  
 Yeah, they're great tubes for sure. But they lack in soundstage and detail compared to the GEC's, IMO. I think they're also warmer sounding than the GEC's.


----------



## hypnos1

sonictrance said:


> Yeah, they're great tubes for sure. But they lack in soundstage and detail compared to the GEC's, IMO. I think they're also warmer sounding than the GEC's.


 
  
 Yes indeed MX...I honestly believe there's very little can compare with the mighty GECs. But boy, just don't have that wallet anywhere near your ticker when hunting for the beauties! (Mind you, there are tubes at even more ridiculous prices out there, no?!)...


----------



## mordy

As several of us managed to break C3g tubes I want to re-post this:
  
  
*Caution:* As I personally found out, the C3g is a very fragile tube, and it cannot be rolled like any other tube because the glass will break. You cannot rock it back and forth like all other tubes when removing it. The only way is to take a small flat blade screwdriver and gently pry and lift up the tube base gradually, going in a circle around the tube base. Then just pull straight up. To insert the tube, just push gently straight down. If you have a tight socket, especially a tight center hole, you may want to enlarge it a little with a needle nose pliers or similar.
  
 One theory why this tube is so brittle is because it was developed to amplify telephone signals in underwater transatlantic cables. The glass had to be tempered to withstand the underwater pressures.


----------



## SonicTrance

hypnos1 said:


> Yes indeed MX...I honestly believe there's very little can compare with the mighty GECs. But boy, just don't have that wallet anywhere near your ticker when hunting for the beauties! (Mind you, there are tubes at even more ridiculous prices out there, no?!)...


 
 Yes, that's very true. I'm glad I don't own a 300B amp, lol!


----------



## SonicTrance

renderman said:


> I would be very interested in that comparison! Time for a vacation to... Sweden!
> 
> So go back home right now! Just kidding, enjoy your vacation.


 
 I posted my comparison in the more appropriate LD thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/522099/little-dot-mk-vi-little-dot-mk-viii-se-owners-unite/1995#post_11870779


----------



## Shaffer

Yet one more possibly dumb question: can 5687 tubes be used as drivers with a 6922 adapter?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Yet one more possibly dumb question: can 5687 tubes be used as drivers with a 6922 adapter?


 
  
 Unfortunately, 5687, 6900, 7044 and 7119/E182CC have a pin-out that is different than the 6922, so a different adapter is required. That said, IMO, the Sylvania and Tung-Sol 5687 and the Philips 7119/E182CC are terrific tubes.


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> As several of us managed to break C3g tubes I want to re-post this:
> 
> 
> *Caution:* As I personally found out, the C3g is a very fragile tube, and it cannot be rolled like any other tube because the glass will break. You cannot rock it back and forth like all other tubes when removing it. The only way is to take a small flat blade screwdriver and gently pry and lift up the tube base gradually, going in a circle around the tube base. Then just pull straight up. To insert the tube, just push gently straight down. If you have a tight socket, especially a tight center hole, you may want to enlarge it a little with a needle nose pliers or similar.
> ...


 

 Thanks for the warning Mordy. Seeing how expensive the good 6SN7 tubes are not to mention the ECC31 /32 I'm more than eager to give the C3G a try seeing all the good things a lot of you are saying about it. In any case it's sitting on an adapter so perhaps we could just remove the adapter with the C3G on it.


----------



## UntilThen

Is there a preferred C3G brand to look out for? I read that the Siemens are a bit brighter compared to the Lorenz.
 Can you also use C3M? Sorry so many questions


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Is there a preferred C3G brand to look out for? I read that the Siemens are a bit brighter compared to the Lorenz.
> Can you also use C3M? Sorry so many questions


 
  
 Hi UT.
  
 Yes indeed, the Siemens do have a brighter presentation, which doesn't suit everyone. And of course depends on the rest of the gear.
  
 The C3m - alas - is a 20V animal, otherwise identical (and therefore much cheaper of course, as hardly anyone can use 'em lol!)...so a no-go here.


----------



## UntilThen

Yes warm lush smooth husky undertone as in California Dreamin' by Diana Krall 
  
 So no Siemens and definitely no C3m for me.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Yes warm lush smooth husky undertone as in California Dreamin' by Diana Krall
> 
> So no Siemens and definitely no C3m for me.




You may want to try CBS 6SN7*GT*. I'm 3 of them burning right now - in the DV and in the Elise - and the sound is warm, yet fairly detailed and quite powerful.


----------



## gibosi

Are you talking about this tube? Or the one with the Sylvania-style angled plates?
  
 (Even though the brand is Motoroloa, it was manufacturd by CBS/Hytron. Note the EIA code 210)


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Are you talking about this tube? Or the one with the Sylvania-style angled plates?
> 
> (Even though the brand is Motoroloa, it was manufacturd by CBS/Hytron. Note the EIA code 210)




That's the one.


----------



## Lord Raven

People are waiting for their Elise to arrive and mine is going back into its box for 25 days as I'm going out to a project work :/ It'll be stored, but when I come back, it'll join its nemesis  The DAC.. My first ever home audio DAC lol Wish me luck guys, I might hunt tubes and roll them in my head in the meanwhile. Who's got ECC31/6080WA for sale?


----------



## Suuup

How about you send me that Elise, and you can have mine?


----------



## Lord Raven

suuup said:


> How about you send me that Elise, and you can have mine?




Ok Bro, you can have mine  Tell me your address please.. Shipment will easy from here, EMS.. You deserve it more than I do


----------



## Suuup

lord raven said:


> Ok Bro, you can have mine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Just noticed something. Location: Saudi Arabia. That might be a problem. I don't think it'll arrive before my own Elise.


----------



## Lord Raven

suuup said:


> Just noticed something. Location: Saudi Arabia. That might be a problem. I don't think it'll arrive before my own Elise.




I sent my Focal speakers to Malaysia in 4-5 days  EMS is very fast.. When is yours coming? 

Actually, I hate the local customs. Did you read my experience? They're rude and have no idea about tubes lol


----------



## Suuup

lord raven said:


> I sent my Focal speakers to Malaysia in 4-5 days
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well that's rather quick. Mine should arrive in about a week. 
 I've not read, or rather, I can not recall your experience. I've been trying to follow this thread ever since I ordered my Elise. Read every post, but god damn, it's so hard when you know nothing about tubes. It's all just a big blur of tube names and other professional terms. What happened with the tubes?


----------



## Lord Raven

suuup said:


> Well that's rather quick. Mine should arrive in about a week.
> I've not read, or rather, I can not recall your experience. I've been trying to follow this thread ever since I ordered my Elise. Read every post, but god damn, it's so hard when you know nothing about tubes. It's all just a big blur of tube names and other professional terms. What happened with the tubes?




Bro, send PM to all the thread members and find answers to your questions 

Just remember this, tube rolling is not for beginners like ourselves


----------



## Suuup

lord raven said:


> Bro, send PM to all the thread members and find answers to your questions
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That's the plan. When I receive the Elise, I'll start looking into tube rolling 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Lord Raven

suuup said:


> That's the plan. When I receive the Elise, I'll start looking into tube rolling  .




You're done, my friend 

Prepare big bucks!


----------



## Suuup

lord raven said:


> You're done, my friend
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 That's exactly what I'm afraid of.


----------



## Lord Raven

suuup said:


> That's exactly what I'm afraid of.




I'm so tempted but I did not buy a single tube yet. I think I have to wait for best tubes to surface for this newly made amplifier.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

Tube rolling can be addictive with no self control your wallet will be sorry(at least for me).


----------



## JazzVinyl

Hello All...
  
 Still patiently waiting on my Elise 
  
 I am preparing for it's arrival.  I pick up an Ekornes recliner that I bought used, on Ebay, on Monday.
  
 Hyponos1 is sending C3gS adaptors (thank you, Hypnos1...!!!).
  
 And...
  
 I have fallen prey to the hype of ECC31's and bought this pair on Ebay:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N7G-ECC31-Visseaux-Double-Triode-Made-France-Black-Plate-OFFERTA-Tube-Valve-/261991860662?nma=true&si=Blo9Kc7AL0RVZ37LrBpRZMbhOEs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
  
  
  
 Should be a comfy, and highly listen-able fall and winter, here in Colorado 
  
 Cheers to all....


----------



## MIKELAP

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Tube rolling can be addictive with no self control your wallet will be sorry(at least for me).


 

 You are not alone unfortunately .Thanks gibosi lol.


----------



## SonicTrance

jazzvinyl said:


> Hello All...
> 
> Still patiently waiting on my Elise
> 
> ...


 
 Those doesn't look like Mullard made ECC31's but like ordinary 6N7G's. The whole tube construction looks different. I have no idea how they sound though.


----------



## JazzVinyl

sonictrance said:


> Those doesn't look like Mullard made ECC31's but like ordinary 6N7G's. The whole tube construction looks different. I have no idea how they sound though.


 
  
 Oh oh...I thought I read here, that no matter what brand they were marked...they were all made by Mullard...?


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> I have fallen prey to the hype of ECC31's and bought this pair on Ebay:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6N7G-ECC31-Visseaux-Double-Triode-Made-France-Black-Plate-OFFERTA-Tube-Valve-/261991860662?nma=true&si=Blo9Kc7AL0RVZ37LrBpRZMbhOEs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


 
  
 As MrX notes, you did not buy a pair of ECC31. You bought a pair of 6N7G. If you look closely at the pictures, you will see 6N7G etched into the glass. They have the same pinout and will work fine with the ECC31 adapter. However, I have no idea how they will sound.
  
 The ECC31 was manufactured in Mullard's Blackburn factory and no where else. Yes, the ECC31 was often rebranded, but it was never labeled as a 6N7G.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> As MrX notes, you did not buy a pair of ECC31. You bought a pair of 6N7G. If you look closely at the pictures, you will see 6N7G etched into the glass. They have the same pinout and will work fine with the ECC31 adapter. However, I have no idea how they will sound.
> 
> The ECC31 was manufactured in Mullard's Blackburn factory and no where else. Yes, the ECC31 was often rebranded, but it was never labeled as a 6N7G.


 

 Thanks,  gibosi...
  
 I thought the deal was "too good to be true".
  
 Live and learn...
  
 .


----------



## UntilThen

Tube rolling is all part of the fun. Had my Darkvoice recently and already buying quite a few tubes.
With the Elise I'll be more selective. Still inclined to try the 6SN7 variants but the good ones are expensive and closely monitored.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Tube rolling is all part of the fun. Had my Darkvoice recently and already buying quite a few tubes.
> With the Elise I'll be more selective. Still inclined to try the 6SN7 variants but the good ones are expensive and closely monitored.




I've mentioned before how I bought a bunch of inexpensive, but well-tested, used tubes to see what I liked. Now that I've tried more than a few, some have emerged as clear winners for my tastes. From now on, I'm willing to spend more on nice sets of the latter, and buy far fewer trial tubes, if you will.


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


> Just remember this, tube rolling is not for beginners like ourselves


 
  
 Hi LR....not exactly true, my friend - the trick is to digest very carefully the advice and recommendations of those (mad?) - me included! - people who have taken all the risk/expense, and then take the shortcut lol!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (your sanity AND wallet will thank you).


jazzvinyl said:


> Oh oh...I thought I read here, that no matter what brand they were marked...they were all made by Mullard...?


 
  
 Ah JV...the downside of vendors listing all the different (possible) variants of a tube - sometimes with less-than-honourable intentions!! The FIRST tube type listing MUST be ECC31 OR NR73/CV1285/1280, regardless of brand name - which will nearly always actually be Mullard anyway.
  
 Am so sorry you got caught out, but I must admit I was very tempted to get those tubes myself, out of curiosity - they do indeed look a very nice tube. You could very well have discovered something that approaches the Mullard at a much better price. I'm sure all is not lost!


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Hi LR....not exactly true, my friend - the trick is to digest very carefully the advice and recommendations of those (mad?) - me included! - people who have taken all the risk/expense, and then take the shortcut lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello hypnos1
  
 Yeah, I am going to keep that order, and see what we get. 
  
 Might be a "sonic treat" for an upcoming cold winter night in the Rockies 
  
 Has anyone used any other brand of the 6N7G, in an Elise or DV?
  
 .


----------



## mordy

Look at this picture:
  





  
 The third tube from the right is an IBM tube numbered 5998 with dimpled plates. This tube has a famous cousin/sibling (depending on whom is putting together the family tree) called WE 421A, but this is a Tung Sol 5998 from April 1961.
  
 Anyhow, I only have one; put it to work together with a Chatham 6AS7G. The 5998 is supposed to be one of the best tubes out there. The amplification factor is 5, whereas the 6AS7 has an amplification factor of 2, so I expected it to sound a little louder.
  
 Don't notice too much difference in loudness compared to the Chatham. The 5998 has stronger and better articulated bass and sounds more full bodied than the Chatham 6AS7 but otherwise very similar.
  
 I do have the satisfaction of not overpaying for this tube which I bought in a lot of 12 tubes - paid a fraction of the  going price. Sometimes Ebay sleeps and u get lucky....


----------



## Shaffer

I've listed by V200 for sale. Let's see where it leads.


----------



## UntilThen

Haha JazzVinyl these will be collector's item down the track.
  
 Mordy nice 5998. Always wanted one to try in my DV but they are too expensive now and you hardly see it. Those GEC 6AS7G are head spinning price now. A single Osram is now US$307.
  
 Meanwhile I bought these cheap and waiting for their arrival....it's a start


----------



## UntilThen

shaffer said:


> I've listed by V200 for sale. Let's see where it leads.


 
 GLWTS Shaffer. Before I got enticed by the Elise that was the amp I wanted.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> GLWTS Shaffer. Before I got enticed by the Elise that was the amp I wanted.




Easy solution, buy both.


----------



## hypnos1

After JazzVinyl's unexpected purchase of a pair of 6N7G tubes (which I'm sure are going to prove quite surprising!), I just thought I'd post a picture of some tubes I think look REALLY interesting, and which I was going to snap up smartish - until I discovered they need 12/13V for the heaters...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...tragedy!!
  
 They are in fact a precursor to the 6N7G/ECC31, made by Philips in Italy, and the quality of the internals looks absolutely first class - with an uncanny resemblance to the Mullard ECC31. Apart from those bases! (But no problem to adapt, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 I have a sneaking feeling these could have proved killer tubes also - at a fraction of the cost!
  
 Ah well, such is life, I suppose...sighs...
  

  
 The more I look at these, the more my heart sinks!!


----------



## CITIZENLIN

50 plus hours in.....
 Here are some photos
  
 #17 comes with white little dot on vol knob.
  
  

  
  
 Pairing with C3gs

  
 Pairing with 5962s

  
  
 with TS 6SN7GT oval plate


----------



## CITIZENLIN

untilthen said:


> Yes warm lush smooth husky undertone as in California Dreamin' by Diana Krall
> 
> So no Siemens and definitely no C3m for me.


 
 Siemens C3Gs are brighter side but still very pleasant high with silky vocal. 
 You might like RCA 5962s, they are the warmest of all.
 Between C3Gs and 5962 is Tung Sol 6SN7GT (oval).
  
 These are the impression I got so far. I am sure it might change with little more burn in time.


----------



## whirlwind

mordy said:


> Look at this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Great score


----------



## mordy

Hi hypnos 1,
  
 11V, 13V - no problem for us Little Doters... An external power supply, a voltage regulator, custom adapters, and a snake pit of wires LOL. What is the designation of these tubes? There is a 11N7 tube out there but I did not see any true bargains.


----------



## mordy

hi Citizenlin,
  
 Those tube damper rings - do they have an effect?


----------



## CITIZENLIN

mordy said:


> hi Citizenlin,
> 
> Those tube damper rings - do they have an effect?


 
 I couldn't tell with my old ears but good for protection from bumping to things.


whirlwind said:


> Great score


 
 Agree. Mordy got good nose for the deals.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> 11V, 13V - no problem for us Little Doters... An external power supply, a voltage regulator, custom adapters, and a snake pit of wires LOL. What is the designation of these tubes? There is a 11N7 tube out there but I did not see any true bargains.


 
  
 It is an FDD20:
  
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_fdd20.html
  
 But I haven't been able to find anything more about this tube. Like H1, I have been watching this listing for some time now. My amp can handle the voltage, but as I do not have H1's skill building adapters, I am reluctant to take the plunge. The base is different than any I have ever seen, "Europe side contact base P (P8A) (Codex=Sd)", but if someone would like to give them a try, the eBay listing number is 252065831381.


----------



## UntilThen

​ Careful H1. Those might outdo your ECC31s.
  
 Ah Lin you're back. Been quietly enjoying Elise have you? Photos are always good especially to show the different tubes you're trying with. I'm assuming all Elise has a white dot on the volume knob no?
  
 I don't know RCA 5962. They look expensive. Well warm to a degree. I don't need or want it too warm. I think one's taste in sound signature changes over time. It's an acquired taste.
  
 You should lose the metal covering on the C3gs. The naked tubes really look good. You do have to be very careful removing them. I'm getting the Lorenz C3gs and H1's adapters now. Prior to this I have no idea what a C3g is until I start to Google.


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> You should lose the metal covering on the C3gs. The naked tubes really look good. You do have to be very careful removing them. I'm getting the Lorenz C3gs and H1's adapters now. Prior to this I have no idea what a C3g is until I start to Google.


 
  
 I think "should" is the wrong word to use.... These tubes were designed to operate inside their metal cans for 10,000+ hours. Performance-wise, nothing is gained by removing them. And if the cans are removed, these tubes don't put on much of show. Sitting several feet away, they look pretty blah, especially next to power tubes. Yes, if you position a camera lens up very close, you can take a photo like the one Mordy has posted, but otherwise, in my opinion, the light-show just isn't worth the hassle or the risk.
  
 That said, this is just a hobby, and if someone really wants to take the cans off, if carefully done, it doesn't hurt a thing. But personally, I prefer them fully clothed. lol


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > 11V, 13V - no problem for us Little Doters... An external power supply, a voltage regulator, custom adapters, and a snake pit of wires LOL. What is the designation of these tubes? There is a 11N7 tube out there but I did not see any true bargains.
> ...


 

 Just put your amp on 12.6 it will work fine


----------



## gibosi

2359glenn said:


> Just put your amp on 12.6 it will work fine


 
  
 Yes, I know.  And if it had a standard octal base, I would be much more willing to try. However, it uses a European "side contact base P (P8A)" which I have never seen before, and don't know how difficult it would be to make an adapter.... Are you game?


----------



## UntilThen

It's a good weekend chuckle. Naked or clothed C3g. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And this is beautiful.


----------



## Thenewguy007

It's like a scavenger hunt for me. I look into one amp & get recommended another, then get pointed to another & find another. Just when I was set on buying a WooAudio WA2, I find this amp.
 I did read the past few dozen pages of this thread, but most of that was about tube rolling.
  
 So can anyone give me some advice on this amp?
  

I am looking for an amp that can expand the soundstage & really give air to imaging/instrumental placement
An amp that can get rid of harsh treble & sibilance.
Having a full bass body & impact would be great too, but not the #1 factor I need!
  
 I am looking to _hopefully _spend less than $800.
  
 My headphones are the *Beyerdynamics T1* (harsh treble) & *Audeze LCD-2* (lack of soundstage & air).
 I am also looking to get the *Sennheiser HD800* in the future.
  
 I was considering the Schiit Lyr 2, WooAudio WA2, LittleDot MK VI+ & finally came across this amp.
 All I know is that from the "Sibling Rivalry; The Woo WA2 vs The Woo WA6SE" thread, the WAS6Se seemed to outclass the WA2 in what I was looking for an amp.
  
 Has there been any owner comparisons between the Elise & WA2 in this thread?
 This seems to be priced lower, does it not compare directly to it?


----------



## UntilThen

Hi and welcome. I referred you here from the Darkvoice forum. Buying an amp for those headphones, it pays to do your research. So it's not a waste of time that you were looking at options. I think this might be your last stop but then again it depends on you.
  
 I'll let others who have own this amp and have used it with HD800 & T1 to answer your questions. They are a most friendly and helpful group. So sit tight they will respond but being a weekend and family commitments just wait a bit.
  
 I have place my order and am waiting for one.


----------



## Suuup

thenewguy007 said:


> It's like a scavenger hunt for me. I look into one amp & get recommended another, then get pointed to another & find another. Just when I was set on buying a WooAudio WA2, I find this amp.
> I did read the past few dozen pages of this thread, but most of that was about tube rolling.
> 
> So can anyone give me some advice on this amp?
> ...



I did EXACTLY the same. I have a pair of T1's, and considered all these amps aswell. After doing hundreds of hours of research (yes, hundreds) I settled here. I'm getting my Elise in about a week now. From what I've read, you won't be going anywhere else now. The Elise is the final destination (I hope)


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> Yes, I know.  And if it had a standard octal base, I would be much more willing to try. However, it uses a European "side contact base P (P8A)" which I have never seen before, and don't know how difficult it would be to make an adapter.... Are you game?


 
  
 A further complication: there may be FDD20s with different base connections, unless that's just an error. See http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/Roehren-Geschichtliches/Trioden/FDD20.htm or http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/short/052/3/372.pdf.


----------



## hypnos1

citizenlin said:


> 50 plus hours in.....
> Here are some photos
> 
> #17 comes with white little dot on vol knob.
> ...


 
  
 GREAT set of pics, CL...and a nice collection you have there! Look forward to your in-depth impressions with further burn-in...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


untilthen said:


> It's a good weekend chuckle. Naked or clothed C3g.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have to agree with you 110%, UT. I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but come on g, _surely_ this looks _far_ nicer, n'est-ce pas?! (And can removal should be no problem if done carefully - and NOT with a screwdriver lol!...anyone interested just PM me and I'll give full instructions on how to do it safely).
  


thenewguy007 said:


> It's like a scavenger hunt for me. I look into one amp & get recommended another, then get pointed to another & find another. Just when I was set on buying a WooAudio WA2, I find this amp.
> I did read the past few dozen pages of this thread, but most of that was about tube rolling.
> 
> So can anyone give me some advice on this amp?
> ...


 
  
 Hi TNG007...and welcome to the thread.
 I'm sure a good few more Elise owners will answer some, if not all your questions. There are various bits of info on the 1st post of this thread, with links to 2 reviews by Renderman and nephilim, and Shaffer has also given quite extensive assessments in past posts...along with mordy and others (can't keep track of them all!)...must try to gather all their welcome words and compile into a ref. summary - when time permits!
  
 As for myself, owning the 'tricky-treble' T1s, all I can say is that given your budget, you should have no trouble finding the tube combination that will give you ALL those qualities you seek, as the Elise already has the necessary inherent potential....in my own case, the ECC31 drivers (with adapters) deliver to perfection everything you seek, but even less exotic fare will fit the bill!
  
 I wish you good luck in your deliberations and final choice.
  
 CJ


----------



## SonicTrance

hypnos1 said:


> I have to agree with you 110%, UT. I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but come on g, _surely_ this looks _far_ nicer, n'est-ce pas?! (And can removal should be no problem if done carefully - and NOT with a screwdriver lol!...anyone interested just PM me and I'll give full instructions on how to do it safely).


 
 Your tutorial on how to remove the cans in the LD rolling thread is very good and detailed. I used that method on four C3G's without any problems. So yeah, not hard at all if you take your time and are careful


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> A further complication: there may be FDD20s with different base connections, unless that's just an error. See http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/Roehren-Geschichtliches/Trioden/FDD20.htm or http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/short/052/3/372.pdf.


 
  
 Hi Oskari...long time no speak!
  
 Thanks for the link...VERY interesting, and wonderful photos.
  
 ps. Many moons ago you posted a beautiful piece of funereal music when I broke some beloved tubes...is it on a CD with other choral work that's available at all? Thx...
  


sonictrance said:


> Your tutorial on how to remove the cans in the LD rolling thread is very good and detailed. I used that method on four C3G's without any problems. So yeah, not hard at all if you take your time and are careful


 
  
 Hi -MX-...thx, and glad you had no problems. (Just need to remember which post it was now amongst the myriad on that thread, lol!!).


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi hypnos 1,
> 
> 11V, 13V - no problem for us Little Doters... An external power supply, a voltage regulator, custom adapters, and a snake pit of wires LOL. What is the designation of these tubes? There is a 11N7 tube out there but I did not see any true bargains.


 
  
 Yo mordy...a piece of cake - but one of the reasons behind my quest for an 'Elise' was precisely to get away from all that, lol!!...but who knows...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Shaffer

thenewguy007 said:


> It's like a scavenger hunt for me. I look into one amp & get recommended another, then get pointed to another & find another. Just when I was set on buying a WooAudio WA2, I find this amp.
> I did read the past few dozen pages of this thread, but most of that was about tube rolling.
> 
> So can anyone give me some advice on this amp?
> ...




Let me say from the onset that I own none of the headphones you do. I do, however, use DT880/600 and several AKG K7-series cans that are all known for peaky highs with the wrong gear. The Elise is an open and very clear sounding amplifier. It doesn't roll off the highs; instead, it presents them in a non-etched, extended manner. They're still there, but they're not abrasive, if that makes sense. The Elise doesn't necessarily soften the sound; it simply doesn't add anything nasty to it. In terms of the low end, it extends deeper and with more authority than any other amp I own (you can see my profile). Good luck.


----------



## UntilThen

thenewguy007 said:


> I am looking to _hopefully _spend less than $800.
> 
> My headphones are the *Beyerdynamics T1* (harsh treble) & *Audeze LCD-2* (lack of soundstage & air).
> I am also looking to get the *Sennheiser HD800* in the future.
> ...


 
 I have not seen any comparisons between Elise & WA2 simply because I don't think there are anyone yet who have own both amps. I may be wrong but I haven't heard anyone mention about it. If you're looking to hopefully spend less than $800 then that rules out the WA2 whose list price on the Woo website is $1190, similarly for WA6Se. Those are nice looking amps based on looks and reviews and yes I have read that 'Sibling Rivalry' review - very well written.
  
 Elise has certainly been compared to LD mk4se and the feedback from owners of both is that the LD mk4se is now consigned to the attic. The appeal of Elise to me is the design around those tube category 6AS7 and 6SN7. Plus the fact that it's produced by Felik Audio a small boutique amp designer from Europe. They have more exotic tube amps in their range if you check their website. The feedback from everyone who has own one so far is that it sounds amazing and it's beautifully made, simple and elegant looking. These feedbacks are from people who have used it with their HD800 and T1.
  
 I have made my deliberations. I'm going with Elise. I wish you good luck in your final choice. It's a very rewarding hobby and there are certainly options.


----------



## Shaffer

FWIW, if my trade deal for a WA6 works out I'll be able to post a comparison, given a reasonable amount of time.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> FWIW, if my trade deal for a WA6 works out I'll be able to post a comparison, given a reasonable amount of time.


 
 What will you be trading Shaf?


----------



## UntilThen

50 of his antique high fidelity LPs.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> ps. Many moons ago you posted a beautiful piece of funereal music when I broke some beloved tubes...is it on a CD with other choral work that's available at all? Thx...


 
  
 Wow, that was some time ago. Found it: http://www.head-fi.org/t/563884/little-dot-tube-amps-vacuum-tube-rolling-guide/8070#post_10995392
  
 (Some research taking place here.)
  
 This is _Narvan marssi_ (The March of Narva) performed by _Polyteknikkojen Kuoro_ (The Polytech Choir), an academic male choir, who are apparently performing at the Proms tonight!
  
_Narvan marssi_ appears on their 1998 album _Suomelle – Isänmaallisia lauluja_ as well as the 2004 collection _Vuodet – Polyteknikkojen Kuoro 100 vuotta_. I see both on Spotify and iTunes.
  
 P.S. In this case the march was sung in (Finland) Swedish, so we might also call it _Narvamarschen_ or _Karl XII:s marsch vid Narva_.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

thenewguy007 said:


> It's like a scavenger hunt for me. I look into one amp & get recommended another, then get pointed to another & find another. Just when I was set on buying a WooAudio WA2, I find this amp.
> I did read the past few dozen pages of this thread, but most of that was about tube rolling.
> 
> So can anyone give me some advice on this amp?
> ...


 
 Have look at Bottlehead?


----------



## gibosi

i luvmusic 2 said:


> Have look at Bottlehead?


 
  
 His Audeze LCD-2 has an impedance of 70 ohms and thus, the Bottlehead would be a poor choice. That said, most OTL's will not do the LCD-2 justice. Yes, the LCD-2 will work and sound quite good, but not as good as it would with an amp that can deliver more current into 70 ohms.
  
 In my opinion, if Thenewguy007 wants his LCD-2's to sound their best, as well as the T-1's and HD800s, the Lyr2 or the WA2 would be his best choice. If he had only high-Z cans, like the T-1 and the HD800, I would recommend the Elise with absolutely no hesitation.
  
 And as for the specific things he is looking for: 
  
 "An amp that can expand the soundstage & really give air to imaging/instrumental placement
 An amp that can get rid of harsh treble & sibilance.
 Having a full bass body & impact"
  
 These are the reason we roll tubes. Any of the amps he is considering will deliver all this and more with the right tubes.


----------



## i luvmusic 2

.


----------



## UntilThen

I know what I want ultimately....this


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> I know what I want ultimately....this




What you want are so many great tube amps that you'll need a custom switching box to feed them all. Wait, that's what I want, lol


----------



## mordy

Hi,
  
 Going through my newly acquired lot of 12 tubes. There is a pair of twilight tube era GE 6AS7GA tubes there from September 1985. (Picture from a different source, but tubes identical to picture)
  
  
  




  
 The support rods above the top mica look like little chimneys. The pair I got looks like new, so it probably needs to burn in. First impression is that they sound good, but not very warm. Detailed, very clear, laid back and very neutral, almost ss. Spacious sound stage. All this may be subject to change after usage.
  
 Included in this lot was a RCA 6080 tube dated September 1980. It look exactly like the tube above, but with a metal base. In addition, the other side of the tube glass has the telltale GE dots, so this is a relabeled GE tube. I cannot see any difference in the construction of these two tubes, but the GE is a 6AS7GA and the RCA is a 6080.
  
 Does anybody know what the difference is? Printed out the spec sheets for both, and the specs are almost identical.
  
 Also tested two more tubes - A Svetlana 6H13C Winged C from 1963 and a Chinese Shuguang 6N5PJ from 1972.
  
 Everything sounds very good on the Elise. The Svetlana is the same as the stock tube. The Shuguang puts on a nice light display but sounds darker and less detailed - I am cured of my desire to try a pair of those.
  
 My amp sits on a shelf in a rack. In order to make tube rolling easier, I had my local body shop paint a red pin stripe on the tube bases, indicating the location of the guide pin, to facilitate putting in the tubes in the socket savers. - Just kidding, took some postal labels and cut off some thin red little self adhesive strips. 
  
 BTW, I have a problem with USPS. Ordered some tubes from Michigan. They were sent to Texas, then to New York State where i live. After the USPS posted that the package was out for delivery, it was sent back to Texas. It is now 10 days and I have not received the package. The delivery time should have been 4-5 days. I'll keep you posted (pun intended)....


----------



## UntilThen

I have a pair of those GE 6AS7GA coming anytime now from Parts Express. I have a 6N5PJ that came stock on the Darkvoice 336se. I wonder if they are the same as your Shuguang.


----------



## UntilThen

Is this your Shuguang Mordy?


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello folks, is there any comparisons of this the the La Figaro 339, Crack and Eddue Current Zana Deux?
  
_Sorry if my question's already been answered go ahead and send me the link to the answer_


----------



## UntilThen

No although there was a passing mention from someone with a Crack and also bought the Elise. His comment was that the Elise is better. This amp is still pretty new. Would be nice to get some comparisons down the track for sure.


----------



## UntilThen

Wow Elise has generated enough interest to warrant a comparison with Eddie Current Zana Deux that cost over 2k.


----------



## DecentLevi

Yes I know it may sound a bit outlandish to compare a $600 to a $2400-ish amp, but in the world of hi-fi audio, price does not always dictate sound performance. I was asking because I tried the Zana Deux amp and absolutely loved it head over heels, then I saw this _vaguely _similar looking tube amp and thought just maybe it could happen to sound as good - or at least a comparison nevertheless would be nice. What about the comparison between this and the LF 339? 
  
 BTW I have the HD 650 and I've heard these amps mentioned are all supposed to pair wonderfully with it


----------



## UntilThen

Yes that's my thought too. It's not a fair comparison but would be interesting.
  
 There has been no comparison between Elise and La Figaro too. Indeed HD650 would pair very well with these tube amps. I have the HD650 and DT880 and am waiting excitedly for Elise arrival.


----------



## Liu Junyuan

decentlevi said:


> Yes I know it may sound a bit outlandish to compare a $600 to a $2400-ish amp, but in the world of hi-fi audio, price does not always dictate sound performance. I was asking because I tried the Zana Deux amp and absolutely loved it head over heels, then I saw this _vaguely_ similar looking tube amp and thought just maybe it could happen to sound as good - or at least a comparison nevertheless would be nice. What about the comparison between this and the LF 339?
> 
> BTW I have the HD 650 and I've heard these amps mentioned are all supposed to pair wonderfully with it




It's a great question. I am similarly quite curious as to how the Elise would compare with the 339. As far as the newer ZD, I would guess it surpasses the 339, although I was told by someone at a meet who heard both he thought the two were on equal levels. The ZD will sound more "grand" than the 339, according to an owner of both the ZD and 339 on the 339 thread with whom I exchange PMs occasionally, while the 339 more lush. I have no idea how this would play out with the Elise. It would be great to actually have all side by side.


----------



## UntilThen

Great to see you here Liu. This thread will now come alive as it takes Elise to another spotlight. How it compares to the world. I almost feel protective of Elise now as every boxer wants to take her on in the ring. Just kidding. I'm enjoying your views on ZD and LF.


----------



## DecentLevi

If either the LF 339 or Elise were to sound more lush, I would probably attribute that to the tube in either amp which could be rolled to sound differently.


----------



## UntilThen

Email from Feliks Audio. Getting my Elise end Sept.


----------



## hypnos1

decentlevi said:


> Yes I know it may sound a bit outlandish to compare a $600 to a $2400-ish amp, but in the world of hi-fi audio, price does not always dictate sound performance. I was asking because I tried the Zana Deux amp and absolutely loved it head over heels, then I saw this _vaguely _similar looking tube amp and thought just maybe it could happen to sound as good - or at least a comparison nevertheless would be nice. What about the comparison between this and the LF 339?
> 
> BTW I have the HD 650 and I've heard these amps mentioned are all supposed to pair wonderfully with it


 
  
 Hi DL...always nice to see new faces here...
  
 I very much doubt the Elise could match the Eddie (understandably!), but I'm sure that with top-flight tubes she would come _fairly_ close. I suspect that given the price difference, Elise + better headphones might just be the better bargain...
  
 I too would love to see a head-to-head with the LF339...anyone up to it?!
  
 ps.  Greetings to LJ also - are _you_ up for two amps?


----------



## hypnos1

Hey mordy, UT, Oskari, gibosi - I knew this would happen...in your own ways you have all led me astray once more!! (coupled with my constant drooling, lol!). The omens seem quite good however, as more FDD20s have appeared on the scene and I have put in offers   :
  

  
 Haven't come across 'RVC' tubes before, but these are obviously re-branded Philips tubes with a bit of paint sprayed on (that will come off STRAIGHT away!) - and from Germany, so mailing should be better to me than from Italy.
  
 The thought of having (possibly) the only headphone amp on the planet with these tubes as drivers was too tempting, I'm afraid...along with the gnawing curiosity of just how they compare to the ECC31 - let this be a warning to would-be tube rollers : once bitten, it's a very slippery slope to madness alas!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 At this point I must also apologise for once again entering into territory that may not really be appropriate for most people...viz. my previous statement!
  
 Quote:


oskari said:


> Wow, that was some time ago. Found it: http://www.head-fi.org/t/563884/little-dot-tube-amps-vacuum-tube-rolling-guide/8070#post_10995392
> 
> (Some research taking place here.)
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for that, O...must have taken you a fair time to search all this...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


untilthen said:


> Email from Feliks Audio. Getting my Elise end Sept.


 
  
 Wonderful news, UT...let's hope the time flies(?!)...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> Haven't come across 'RVC' tubes before, but these are obviously re-branded Philips tubes with a bit of paint sprayed on (that will come off STRAIGHT away!) - and from Germany, so mailing should be better to me than from Italy.


 
  
 There was the Canadian RVC, Radio Valve Co. of Canada Ltd., but I doubt that's them. I can't find much about this presumably German RVC.
  

http://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?company_id=14744


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> There was the Canadian RVC, Radio Valve Co. of Canada Ltd., but I doubt that's them. I can't find much about this presumably German RVC.
> 
> 
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?company_id=14744


 
  
 Looks like you were spot on re. the Canadian connection - Marconi/Radiotron. Would that be in collaboration with Philips at all?... Or just coincidence?  :
  

  
 That's the same logo as on the FDD20, of course....edit - on closer examination, not _exactly_ the same! Very confusing!


----------



## Oskari

I don't think the Canadians were involved...


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> I don't think the Canadians were involved...


 
  
 More confused do I get, O....will have to see if the vendor can shed some light!


----------



## Oskari

The radiomuseum link above suggests that there was a German RVC, a rebrander.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> The radiomuseum link above suggests that there was a German RVC, a rebrander.


 
  
 Aahh...less confused/worried now am I - as I first suspected, most probably a rebranded Philips...got to be really!
  
 Cheers...and thanks...


----------



## Shaffer

decentlevi said:


> *Yes I know it may sound a bit outlandish to compare a $600 to a $2400-ish amp, but in the world of hi-fi audio, price does not always dictate sound performance*. I was asking because I tried the Zana Deux amp and absolutely loved it head over heels, then I saw this _vaguely_ similar looking tube amp and thought just maybe it could happen to sound as good - or at least a comparison nevertheless would be nice. What about the comparison between this and the LF 339?
> 
> BTW I have the HD 650 and I've heard these amps mentioned are all supposed to pair wonderfully with it




You're right. I recall auditioning a number amplifiers ranging in cost from ~$2500 to over $20K. Same with preamps. Of course, I'm not talking about HP gear. It wasn't unusual to find a much lower priced component to sound better than a statement piece. Not always, but not uncommon. At all.

FWIW, I think the Elise is so reasonably price due to us paying in hard currency and the Polish złoty is essentially a non-entity in the money market. And, I maintain that it were sold through traditional outlets, it's price would more than double.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 My Shuguang tube looks exactly the same.


----------



## mordy

Recently got these two pairs of 6AS7G tubes. One is a RCA from April 1969. The other pair is labeled Sylvania, date code YCE, whatever that means. Looking at these two pairs they appear identical, with two differences: The Sylvania tube is a little shorter, and the glass is slightly smoky; otherwise everything else is identical to my eye.
  
 Are these Sylvanias re-branded RCA tubes?
  

  

  
 Right now I am listening to the RCA pair - sounds very nice. These tubes are very common and inexpensive - with a little careful shopping you could snag a pair for around $15-20 or less. I guess that they are too inexpensive to qualify as audiophile tubes LOL, but they are in that category - a lot of people like them, even compared to tubes costing megabucks....
  
 (The red pinstripe above indicates the location of the guide pin to aid in inserting the tube in the socket.)


----------



## Shaffer

I think they're both RCA.


----------



## K4RL

decentlevi said:


> Hello folks, is there any comparisons of this the the La Figaro 339, Crack and Eddue Current Zana Deux?
> 
> _Sorry if my question's already been answered go ahead and send me the link to the answer_


 
  


untilthen said:


> No although there was a passing mention from someone with a Crack and also bought the Elise. His comment was that the Elise is better. This amp is still pretty new. Would be nice to get some comparisons down the track for sure.


 
  
 I think you're referring to me. My Elise is probably still in the burn-in phase, but I'd love to contribute some thorough impressions vs the Crack+SB, sooner or later. I'm afraid I don't have any experience reviewing hifi equipment, but I'll read some other amp reviews around here and see if I can model after those. 
  
 As of now, my assessment is this: listening to the Crack is like looking a a picture, while the Elise is like sticking your head inside a 3D diorama of that picture. I can hear things with the Elise that were apparently "hiding behind" other sounds in the Crack. Is this a documented, inherent quality of paired-tube amps (i.e. two preamp tubes, two power tubes) compared to single-tube amps (single preamp and single power tubes)?
  
 Edit: figured out how to upload pics so here's one. You can kind of see the orange indicator that I mentioned earlier.


----------



## UntilThen

Nicely done K4RL. Nothing like originality in your review / impressions and you convey that nicely. Looking forward to the expanded review when you're ready. That picture should have the headphone on the stand to complete the picture.


----------



## DecentLevi

k4rl said:


> ...As of now, my assessment is this: listening to the Crack is like looking a a picture, while the Elise is like sticking your head inside a 3D diorama of that picture. I can hear things with the Elise that were apparently "hiding behind" other sounds in the Crack...


 
 Very interesting. I've heard awesome things about the pairing of Crack with HD 650, so if you're saying the Elise does _that _much better, then that's quite a milestone for the Elise. And if the Elise sounds as good as described, then sounds like just _maybe _it has the soundstage/3D imaging nearly as good as the Zana Deux. But of course the Crack with Speedball would change the comparison.
  
 Also does anybody know if there will be a balanced in and/or out version of the Elise?


----------



## Shaffer

decentlevi said:


> Also does anybody know if there will be a balanced in and/or out version of the Elise?




Singe-ended only.


----------



## JazzVinyl

In further prep for my Elise...I put the LD MK IV back into "almost factory" mode.  Hope to sell it, when the Elise arrives.
  
 This, has factory powers, and a pair of 6HM5 drivers. 
  
 Been listening...not bad at all.
  
 Looking forward to the added depth, and 3D sound stage, that the Elise will bring to the party.
  

  

  
 Cheers!!!


----------



## Suuup

Does anyone have any good reading material on tubes? There's so many terms and I want to learn.


----------



## gibosi

suuup said:


> Does anyone have any good reading material on tubes? There's so many terms and I want to learn.


 
  
 Google "vacuum tube theory" or "vacuum tube works" or similar....
  
 These might be good articles to start with:
  
 http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm
  
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_tube


----------



## gibosi

The adapter for using a pair of single 76 triodes in a single 6SN7 socket finally arrived from China. These RCA 76 sound terrific!


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> The adapter for using a pair of single 76 triodes in a single 6SN7 socket finally arrived from China. These RCA 76 sound terrific!




OK, this is right up my alley and exactly what I'll do with the second DV. Very nice!


----------



## Suuup

gibosi said:


> Google "vacuum tube theory" or "vacuum tube works" or similar....
> 
> These might be good articles to start with:
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, the first link is really good!


----------



## Shaffer

Well, guys, my Woo WA6 is on its way. Should have it Wednesday. I comes with a selection of tubes and I'm hoping to tune it, tonally, similarly to the Elise and do a proper comparison. Wish me luck.


----------



## UntilThen

Good luck enjoy !


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> Well, guys, my Woo WA6 is on its way. Should have it Wednesday. I comes with a selection of tubes and I'm hoping to tune it, tonally, similarly to the Elise and do a proper comparison. Wish me luck.


 
  
 Hi 007.
  
 This should be interesting...can't wait!
  
 001


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 Good luck! What kind of tube does it come with?


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Hi Shaffer,
> 
> Good luck! What kind of tube does it come with?




Rectifier:
Raytheon 5U4GB
Valve Art 274B
OEM tube

Driver:
GE 6EW7 (x2)
TS 6DR7 (x2)
TS 6DE7 (x2)
Pinnacle 6DR7 (x2)


----------



## mordy

Is it correct that there is no overlap of tubes used for the Woo amp compared to the Elise?


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Is it correct that there is no overlap of tubes used for the Woo amp compared to the Elise?




None whatsoever. This being said, the amp can use 6SN7 and 7N7 with adapters.


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 Enjoyed seeing the pictures of the 76 tubes. What I don't understand is how you can make do with two tubes in a single socket for two-channel stereo - don't you need a double set up with four tubes in two adapters?
  
 Would the 76 tubes work in the Elise, and would this adapter fit in the Elise?


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Enjoyed seeing the pictures of the 76 tubes. What I don't understand is how you can make do with two tubes in a single socket for two-channel stereo - don't you need a double set up with four tubes in two adapters?
> 
> Would the 76 tubes work in the Elise, and would this adapter fit in the Elise?


 
  
 The 76 is a single triode, equivalent to 1/2 of a 6SN7, a double triode. So you need two tubes, one for each channel, to equal one 6SN7. And of course, they would work in the Elise. However, since the Elise uses two drivers, you will need to 2 adapters, one for each 6SN7 socket.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> The 76 is a single triode, equivalent to 1/2 of a 6SN7, a double triode. So you need two tubes, one for each channel, to equal one 6SN7. And of course, they would work in the Elise. However,* since the Elise uses two drivers, you will need to 2 adapters*, one for each 6SN7 socket.




To add, herein lies the problem. The adapters are built so that their keyways would make them sit on top of each other, given the configuration of Elise's sockets. Perhaps it could work with specific socket extenders that change the orientation of the keyway. Yes, the coolness factor, alone, made me contemplate the various workarounds for hours. Decided I'll be happy with just a DV similarly setup.

How would you describe the 76's sound? Not that it even matters.


----------



## Lord Raven

shaffer said:


> Well, guys, my Woo WA6 is on its way. Should have it Wednesday. I comes with a selection of tubes and I'm hoping to tune it, tonally, similarly to the Elise and do a proper comparison. Wish me luck.




A what?  I feel betrayed lol Goodluck!


----------



## Suuup

How does the Elise compare the the Woo WA2?


----------



## UntilThen

We don't know yet Suuup. Yours should be coming anytime now right? My invoice is 22. Wonder if that's ties in with the serial number.


----------



## Suuup

untilthen said:


> We don't know yet Suuup. Yours should be coming anytime now right? My invoice is 22. Wonder if that's ties in with the serial number.



Lukasz should send me the expected shipping date today. How do you see your invoice number?


----------



## UntilThen

It's on the invoice which Feliks Audio send you via email..


----------



## Suuup

untilthen said:


> It's on the invoice which Feliks Audio send you via email..


 
 I have 0018. Is mine the 18th Elise they're making? I'm starting to feel special.


----------



## JohnBal

shaffer said:


> Well, guys, my Woo WA6 is on its way. Should have it Wednesday. I comes with a selection of tubes and I'm hoping to tune it, tonally, similarly to the Elise and do a proper comparison. Wish me luck.


 
 That's awesome. I'm really interested in this. I have the WA6, but not an Elise. Do try to get some adapters for some 6SN7 or 6F8G, they really make the Woo sing.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> To add, herein lies the problem. The adapters are built so that their keyways would make them sit on top of each other, given the configuration of Elise's sockets. Perhaps it could work with specific socket extenders that change the orientation of the keyway. Yes, the coolness factor, alone, made me contemplate the various workarounds for hours. Decided I'll be happy with just a DV similarly setup.
> 
> How would you describe the 76's sound? Not that it even matters.


 
  
 My adapter, from eBay vendor xulingmrs, allows the assembly to be rotated 45 degrees. This should provide enough wriggle room to orient two adapters in adjacent sockets.
  
 Haven't been able to spend any quality time with the 76's. I have had them in the amp only for about an hour to ensure they were not defective, and felt that they sounded great. However, have been rolling through regulators here recently and life outside of head-fi has also been busy...


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> My adapter, from eBay vendor xulingmrs, allows the assembly to be rotated 45 degrees. This should provide enough wriggle room to orient two adapters in adjacent sockets.




Good info. So there is hope.



> Haven't been able to spend any quality time with the 76's. I have had them in the amp only for about an hour to ensure they were not defective, and felt that they sounded great. However, have been rolling through regulators here recently and life outside of head-fi has also been busy...




I'm hoping to order the adapter sometime next week and get the tubes while it's in transit. Just when I has no idea what do with a second DV....


----------



## Shaffer

johnbal said:


> That's awesome. I'm really interested in this. I have the WA6, but not an Elise. Do try to get some adapters for some 6SN7 or 6F8G, they really make the Woo sing.




Do you know if one can only use Woo adapters, or will the adapters sold on ebay fit, as well?


----------



## JohnBal

shaffer said:


> Do you know if one can only use Woo adapters, or will the adapters sold on ebay fit, as well?


 
 I bought my adapters from Glenn, but Woo also can make them for you. ebay adapters will work fine, others use them, they are less expensive for sure, but apparently not made as well.


----------



## mordy

Hi Gibosi,
  
 Sorry for asking again; I just want to be sure. To be able to use type 76 tubes in the Elise, is it correct that I could use two adapters for the 76 tubes, rotate them so that there is enough space for them, and use only one tube in each double adapter?
  
 Is there any brand in the 76 tubes that is supposed to be better sounding?


----------



## Shaffer

johnbal said:


> I bought my adapters from Glenn, but Woo also can make them for you. ebay adapters will work fine, others use them, they are less expensive for sure, but apparently not made as well.




Very good to know. Thank you. 

The gent I'm trading with is including a number of tubes. So far, my plan is to buy a Brimar rectifier and work with what I have for a while. Of course, I have two boxes full of 6NS7s, so the odds of this plan changing are fairly high.


----------



## MIKELAP

shaffer said:


> johnbal said:
> 
> 
> > I bought my adapters from Glenn, but Woo also can make them for you. ebay adapters will work fine, others use them, they are less expensive for sure, but apparently not made as well.
> ...


 

 Also another good choice is a Mullard made with code R71 Philips Miniwatt GZ32 with bite marks on the corners of the plates they were alot cheaper than Mullards when you can find them here's an example has the bite marks didnt see code though                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-GZ32-sh-KLU-Philips-England-Mullard-5V4-20-/271829896796?hash=item3f4a530e5c


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Sorry for asking again; I just want to be sure. To be able to use type 76 tubes in the Elise, is it correct that I could use two adapters for the 76 tubes, rotate them so that there is enough space for them, and use only one tube in each double adapter?
> 
> Is there any brand in the 76 tubes that is supposed to be better sounding?


 
  
 Yes, you would need two adapters, one for each 6SN7 socket. However, since a 67 is equivalent to 1/2 of a 6SN7, you will need two tubes per adapter, for a total of four 76's..
  
 I learned of the 67 in the 6SN7 thread from a posting by jamato8. I asked him which brand he preferred, and his was reply was the RCA. I have no experience with any other brand.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Yes, you would need two adapters, one for each 6SN7 socket. However, since a 67 is equivalent to 1/2 of a 6SN7, you will need two tubes per adapter, for a total of four 76's..
> 
> I learned of the 67 in the 6SN7 thread from a posting by jamato8. I asked him which brand he preferred, and his was reply was the RCA. I have no experience with any other brand.


 
  
 Hmmm...that looks MIGHTY tight to me, g...shan't be going there myself, lol!


----------



## mordy

Hi h1,
  
 One of the sites for the double adapters gives the exact measurements. My first thought was the same as yours, but I took a piece of cardboard and cut two pieces to size. Then I put them on top of the sockets on the Elise.
  
 It seems to me that if you can rotate and angle the two double adapters 45 degrees (I think Gibosi mentioned that this is possible) it appears to me that it may fit. Only a proper trial and error will show if it is feasible since I do not know how far the tubes extend outside the adapter.
  
 Anyhow, before I go through  with this I need more feedback on how these type 76 tubes sound.
  
 BTW, there is an octal version of this tube - the 6P5GT......


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> One of the sites for the double adapters gives the exact measurements. My first thought was the same as yours, but I took a piece of cardboard and cut two pieces to size. Then I put them on top of the sockets on the Elise.
> 
> It seems to me that if you can rotate and angle the two double adapters 45 degrees (I think Gibosi mentioned that this is possible) it appears to me that it may fit. Only a proper trial and error will show if it is feasible since I do not know how far the tubes extend outside the adapter.


 
  
 Yes, the adapters can be rotated up to 45 degrees and the tubes themselves are fairly narrow, extending just a smidge beyond the edges of the adapter when installed.


----------



## Suuup

I just received an email from Lukasz. They've gotten 2 defect batches of Tungsol driver tubes in a row, which is the reason for the delay. They've experimented with some Elektro Harmonix/Russia tubes, and he's asking if I'd want to try those instead, so I didn't have to wait. I know nothing about tubes. Anyone know these tubes and how they fare in the Elise?


----------



## nephilim

You could go for the Electro Harmonix and buy my pair of matched Tung Sols (should be the same version Feliks Audio is using) which have been running just 5h


----------



## Shaffer

suuup said:


> I just received an email from Lukasz. They've gotten 2 defect batches of Tungsol driver tubes in a row, which is the reason for the delay. They've experimented with some Elektro Harmonix/Russia tubes, and he's asking if I'd want to try those instead, so I didn't have to wait. I know nothing about tubes. Anyone know these tubes and how they fare in the Elise?




I have a pair of EH and would not recommend them over Feliks' selected TS'. As an idea, perhaps have Lucasz sip the amp without the drivers, that he can forward when he gets a good supply, and you pick up a NOS/well-tested set to play with in the meantime. Win-win.


----------



## Suuup

I've asked Lukasz how long the wait will be. If it's too long, I'll find a pair somewhere else. 
  
 Oh and by the way, Lukasz said the serial number is just below 20 at this point. My invoice was 18, so it seems it's almost matched atleast. He did also say, that the invoice number wasn't the serial number.


----------



## MusclePharm

Elise's 0018 finally arrived! Going to burn it for at least 50 hours before some tube rolling, even though I'm so tempted to insert my c3gS right away hehe... Waiting for some Bendix 6080WB to arrive too (in customs right now 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## JazzVinyl

musclepharm said:


> Elise's 0018 finally arrived! Going to burn it for at least 50 hours before some tube rolling, even though I'm so tempted to insert my c3gS right away hehe... Waiting for some Bendix 6080WB to arrive too (in customs right now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Congrats on getting number 0018 in!!
  
 Woo-Hoo!!
  
 Also...anyone using the C3gS's as drivers and 6080 as powers?  If so, could you please post listening impressions on this combination vs the stock tubes.
  
 Much appreciate!!


----------



## MusclePharm

jazzvinyl said:


> Congrats on getting number 0018 in!!
> 
> Woo-Hoo!!
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thank you! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
  
 The 6080's just arrived! yay! This must be my lucky day. lol


----------



## Suuup

When did you buy the Elise? I'm trying to work out my serial number. What tubes did you get with it?


----------



## MusclePharm

suuup said:


> When did you buy the Elise? I'm trying to work out my serial number. What tubes did you get with it?


 

 I bought it by 17/06/2015 with the standard tubes which aren't sold with the Amp anymore. 6N13S as power tubes and 6H8C as driver tubes.


----------



## JazzVinyl

musclepharm said:


> I bought it by 17/08/2015 with the standard tubes which aren't sold with the Amp anymore. 6N13S as power tubes and 6H8C as driver tubes.


 
  
 Interesting...as I paid in full on June 18, 2015  while you paid on:  August 17, 2015
  
 You paid almost two full months after me. 
  
 I have received no notice that mine is 'in test'...'nearing ready' or shipped.
  
 Ouy!


----------



## MusclePharm

Oops! Sorry for that. Wrong month, I edited my previous post with the correct month. I ordered it 17 of JUNE. But since those were the last days of the introductory price promotion, there might of been some more orders between yours and mine...


----------



## JazzVinyl

musclepharm said:


> Oops! Sorry for that. Wrong month, I edited my previous post with the correct month. I ordered it 17 of JUNE. But since those were the last days of the introductory price promotion, there might of been some more orders between yours and mine...


 
  
 Ah!  Better then 
  
 Hopefully my notification that mine is ready will happen soon


----------



## Suuup

I got mine on 11th of July.


----------



## hypnos1

musclepharm said:


> Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 WOW, MP... lucky doesn't cover it, lol - more like TREMENDOUS!.... you are in for some SERIOUS joy in the days ahead.
  
 CHEERS!


----------



## Shaffer

I'm Woo'd. The WA6 has been playing for about 45 minutes and I already rolled a few tubes. Initially, its sound could have been described in one word - soft. Now that I have it tuned a bit more, the sound is more detailed and much more incisive. Looking forward to a parallel journey ahead. I'm very hopeful.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> I'm Woo'd. The WA6 has been playing for about 45 minutes and I already rolled a few tubes. Initially, its sound could have been described in one word - soft. Now that I have it tuned a bit more, the sound is more detailed and much more incisive. Looking forward to a parallel journey ahead. I'm very hopeful.


 
  
 You must be retired, Shaffer...to have time to play with all your toys?


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> You must be retired, Shaffer...to have time to play with all your toys?          :happy_face1:




I'm sorry to say that I'm not, but my hours are flexible. I also work from home a lot of the time, so music plays all day.


----------



## nephilim

Today the adapters arrived and I've been comparing the ECC31 against the Siemens C3gS for the past hour. The ECC31 surely add a certain amount of "oomph" to the (sub)bass - which is very welcome, especially with the HD800. However, I'm not fully convinced yet, as I really like the C3gS' clear and bright presentation. That does not mean the ECC31 is dull or veiled but maybe the Siemens has that extra sparkle und clarity. I will allow my ears & brain to fully embrace the ECC31 throughout the next days.
  
 One thing is for sure: visually I do prefer the glow of the C3gS


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> Today the adapters arrived and I've been comparing the ECC31 against the Siemens C3gS for the past hour. The ECC31 surely add a certain amount of "oomph" to the (sub)bass - which is very welcome, especially with the HD800. However, I'm not fully convinced yet, as I really like the C3gS' clear and bright presentation. That does not mean the ECC31 is dull or veiled but maybe the Siemens has that extra sparkle und clarity. I will allow my ears & brain to fully embrace the ECC31 throughout the next days.
> 
> One thing is for sure: visually I do prefer the glow of the C3gS


 

 Hi n.
  
 I fully get your initial impressions...that's exactly what I felt at first - although it was tempered somewhat by my pairing one of each (which, for me, worked amazingly well).
  
 Then with 2x 31s, I really missed that 'sparkle' and air of the C3gSs and wasn't too sure about them.
  
 HOWEVER, as time went on, and with a fair amount of burn-in - (don't forget, NOS tubes will need quite a long time, as will those adapters) -  things altered quite dramatically.
 They opened up nicely; soundstage expanded; more detail came through - across the frequency range - that even surpassed the amazing level of the C3g's resolution.
  
 And as my addiction to the 'S's sound eased away, I appreciated more and more the smoother, but no less dynamic presentation of the 31s.
  
 Admittedly, they do not extend _quite_ so far into the highest frequencies, but this is in fact a bonus for my Beyer T1s! And I now don't feel I'm losing anything at all in the treble arena because of the difference.
  
 It took me a good while to fully appreciate the 'new' sound, but it has developed to a degree that still surprises me, given that NO-ONE loved the C3g'S' sound more than I.
  
 But of course, everyone is different...and the rest of our gear is different also. Still, I'm quite sure that over time, you too will notice more of those qualities I mentioned - I do at least hope you do, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 HAPPY LISTENING!


----------



## nephilim

Alright, I will give those dark & old tubes a chance  How many hours did yours need to open up?
  
 Btw, the (trafo) casing temperature is not significantly different from the previous setup.


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Hi n.
> 
> I fully get your initial impressions...that's exactly what I felt at first - although it was tempered somewhat by my pairing one of each (which, for me, worked amazingly well).
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 I feel strongly that your admiration for the one tube vs the other, is the Beyer T-1's.
  
 I have the DT-990's which tend to be a bit darker and wonder if, in that case, you wouldn't prefer the C3gS's to the ECC31's.
  
 It's great that Tube Amps can be "tuned" for maximum synergy for a given set of cans. 
  
 SS cannot do that (well i guess some can by rolling op-amps) but, you get my point.
  
 Cheers!!
  
 ...


----------



## JazzVinyl

nephilim said:


> Today the adapters arrived and I've been comparing the ECC31 against the Siemens C3gS for the past hour. The ECC31 surely add a certain amount of "oomph" to the (sub)bass - which is very welcome, especially with the HD800. However, I'm not fully convinced yet, as I really like the C3gS' clear and bright presentation. That does not mean the ECC31 is dull or veiled but maybe the Siemens has that extra sparkle und clarity. I will allow my ears & brain to fully embrace the ECC31 throughout the next days.
> 
> One thing is for sure: visually I do prefer the glow of the C3gS


 
  
 What are your preferred cans, nephilim?
  
 Always the HD800's?
  
 .


----------



## nephilim

Yes, I try to keep it simple and would like to end up with one pair of cans and a combination of tubes. I very much prefer the HD800 over the K712 (except the bass maybe) and haven't touched the K712 for weeks.


----------



## JazzVinyl

nephilim said:


> Yes, I try to keep it simple and would like to end up with one pair of cans and a combination of tubes. I very much prefer the HD800 over the K712 (except the bass maybe) and haven't touched the K712 for weeks.


 
  
 Very good.
  
 You are like me, I feel the same way:
  
 My preferred set of cans, and my preferred set of tubes, then, it's all about immersing myself in my preferred music....


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> Very good.
> 
> You are like me, I feel the same way:
> 
> My preferred set of cans, and my preferred set of tubes, then, it's all about immersing myself in my preferred music....


 
  
 Well boys...I'm beginning to lose count of how many times I've told myself (Edit... and my other half!) that!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










!!


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> Alright, I will give those dark & old tubes a chance  How many hours did yours need to open up?
> 
> Btw, the (trafo) casing temperature is not significantly different from the previous setup.


 
  
 40 to 50 at least...
 Good news re trafo housing temp...


----------



## mordy

Am I the only one that noticed that this thread changed name?
  
 We thank hypnos 1 for all his efforts!


----------



## Lord Raven

mordy said:


> Am I the only one that noticed that this thread changed name?
> 
> We thank hypnos 1 for all his efforts!


 
 I did notice the change and have been convincing people to buy 6080 at least  One guy just did and I am waiting for his reviews haha


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> Am I the only one that noticed that this thread changed name?
> 
> We thank hypnos 1 for all his efforts!




Yes, I noticed, too. 

Thank You Hypnos1....!


----------



## hypnos1

Thanks for your kind words guys...I was prompted to change the name by our esteemed colleagues (which I should really have done long before, lol!).


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> I feel strongly that your admiration for the one tube vs the other, is the Beyer T-1's.
> 
> I have the DT-990's which tend to be a bit darker and wonder if, in that case, you wouldn't prefer the C3gS's to the ECC31's.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi JV.
  
 You have a good point re. the T1s benefiting especially from the ECC31 - very possibly more than any other HP. This would certainly apply to the top end.
  
 I have actually been struggling to discern precisely what else they bring versus the C3g...I just cannot bring myself to discard totally my previous love!
 And it has taken a good few more hours than the 40 to 50 I mentioned previously to nephilim in order to get a clearer picture  :  I would say the most obvious area is related to the mids - after the bass, that is! And I think this only really becomes apparent once time has worked its magic on that bass, which at first was obviously masking some other changes.
 I then began to notice an even greater tonal range in acoustic instruments - guitar especially had more character to the strings, and the sax on Jan Garbarek/Hilliard Ensemble's 'Officium Novum' in hi-res was truly mind blowing - I have never heard such richness and variety of tone from a single instrument before...amazing...(must find a really good cello piece in hi-res next!). Voices also had a touch more to the range and timbre.
  
 As instrument and voice positioning developed, the overall effect became slightly more intimate - a little less 'airy' than the C3g, which I must admit is a quality (ie the airiness) that I love especially about said C3g. So if one's system is a bit lifeless, flat and closed-in, this tube is a real panacea. Otherwise, I personally believe the other qualities of the ECC31 outweigh the difference in this area...but once again, it must also come down to personal preference, and the rest of the system...even the different wires I use in my own adapters will have a certain influence on sound compared to the commercially available ones!
  
 In the final analysis of course, there is no one, single 'tube-for-all'...so we must "suck it and see" lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps    -MisterX- posted a very interesting comparison of the ECC32 (the same as the 31 sound-wise) with the ECC33 and 35, if anyone's interested  :  (post #2004)
  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/522099/little-dot-mk-vi-little-dot-mk-viii-se-owners-unite/1995   
  
 pps   A pair of USED ECC32s is averaging $300-$450!!


----------



## JazzVinyl

I too, got the email from Lukasz indicating his troubles with the Tung-Sol drivers, said he was on his third batch and they are due in, in two weeks. 
  
 Asked if I wanted the "Elektro Harmonix Gold" tubes instead, or was willing to wait 2 more weeks to see if Tung-Sol got their act together.
  
 I asked him to ship the amp, sans driver tubes, and to forward me a pair of the Tung-Sol's, once he got a good batch in.,


----------



## JazzVinyl

I have an old pair of old (1960's) 6sn7's that were said to be pulls from working Hammond organ amps.
  
 They are marked "WG & Co" made in the USA.
  
 I know they are re-brands, but they are not mentioned in the big 6sn7 thread.
  
 Anyone know who likely made them?
  
 They have black plates, top halo, getters.


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> I have an old pair of old (1960's) 6sn7's that were said to be pulls from working Hammond organ amps.
> 
> They are marked "WG & Co" made in the USA.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Like most rebranders, WG & Co probably shopped around and purchased the cheapest ones they could find, so the manufacturer of their tubes could well have been different every time they went shopping. From your description, I would guess Sylvania, but if you post a good picture, we can be more certain.


----------



## Shaffer

FWIW, the only WG 6SN7 I've seen was a re-branded Raytheon [EIA 280].


----------



## JazzVinyl

I will post a picture, later today.
  
 From what I can see, they do look most like Sylvania's.
  
 WG & Co = Wells Gardner and Co who made "private brand" consumer electronic items for JC Penney, Montgomery Wards, Lafayette Radio and many more, until the early 1960's.  Based in Chicago, IL
  
 A google search for them reveals they are in business again, this time supplying mostly LCD screens,  to various vendors.


----------



## Lord Raven

musclepharm said:


> Elise's 0018 finally arrived! Going to burn it for at least 50 hours before some tube rolling, even though I'm so tempted to insert my c3gS right away hehe... Waiting for some Bendix 6080WB to arrive too (in customs right now  )




Many congratulations, and happy listening. What is your other setup? Just curious. 

PS I hear people selling C3GS and moving onto ECC31. What's next?


----------



## Shaffer

lord raven said:


> Many congratulations, and happy listening. What is your other setup? Just curious.
> 
> PS I hear people selling C3GS and moving onto ECC31. *What's next?*




I vote for small signal tubes. I'm playing with some ATM and waiting for 6922 adapters to arrive. So far, the results are encouraging.


----------



## gibosi

lord raven said:


> PS I hear people selling C3GS and moving onto ECC31. *What's next?*


 
  
 Sub-miniature "pencil" tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Sub-miniature "pencil" tubes.




That's not a tube, it's a suppository.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> That's not a tube, it's a suppository.


 
  
 A glass suppository? (>_<) lol
  
 A while back I picked up some 6N16G-VIR as a fellow head-fier posted they were very good. However, I have yet to stuff one of them into an octal base...
  
 Too many tubes... not enough time... but someday....   lol


----------



## gibosi

My first attempt at stuffing one of these pencil tubes into an octal base was incredibly crude! lol. A Sylvania 7963. This tube was designed to withstand severe shock, vibration, radiation, high temperature and high altitude for use in guided missiles. And in terms of linearity and distortion, it's one of the best. While this particular tube sounded great in my LD, in my Glenn, it's a bit too SS for my taste.


----------



## mordy

Hi All,
  
 Re re-branded tubes, I saw a post somewhere where the writer postulated that re-branded tubes at times were inferior B-stock of name brand tubes and not of the same quality as the name brand. What do you think?
  
 Another post stated that anybody who ordered more than 1000 tubes could have their name printed on the tubes.
  
 IMHO re-branded tubes could at times be of the highest quality. I remember back in time on the Little Dot thread that Audiofanboy found a Pinnacle re-branded tube that was his favorite, but he could not find out where it came from.
  
 I am pretty sure it was a GEC tube, but only by way of conjecture.
  
 Right now I am listening to an IBM tube of the highest quality (Tung Sol 5998) paired with a Chatham 6AS7G. Looking for Bendix slotted 6080 tubes for a good price but slim pickings.
  
 Tubes are really an international business; a guy in Vietnam (!) is offering 5998 tubes, but the shipping is a killer.


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> [...]
> 
> IMHO re-branded tubes could at times be of the highest quality. I remember back in time on the Little Dot thread that Audiofanboy found a *Pinnacle *re-branded tube that was his favorite, but he could not find out where it came from.




Interesting you say that, Mordy. A set of Pinnacle tubes came with my WA6, along with 2 sets of TS', GE fat bottles, and RCAs. The Pinnacle tubes are the most dynamic, most detailed, most extended, yet the brightest of the lot.


----------



## Oskari

A Pinnacle box is like a box of chocolates...


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> My first attempt at stuffing one of these pencil tubes into an octal base was incredibly crude! lol. A Sylvania 7963. This tube was designed to withstand severe shock, vibration, radiation, high temperature and high altitude for use in guided missiles. And in terms of linearity and distortion, it's one of the best. While this particular tube sounded great in my LD, in my Glenn, it's a bit too SS for my taste.


 
  
  
 F~R~A~N~K~E~N~S~T~E~I~N
  
 Here we go...
  



















  
 .


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Another post stated that anybody who ordered more than 1000 tubes could have their name printed on the tubes.


 
  
 lol


----------



## MusclePharm

hypnos1 said:


> WOW, MP... lucky doesn't cover it, lol - more like TREMENDOUS!.... you are in for some SERIOUS joy in the days ahead.
> 
> CHEERS!


 
 True that, I couldn't stand with those tubes in their boxes knowing their potential and I had to tube roll them in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (Also removed the metal caps from the c3gS thanks to your guide, thank you!) I'm now using the Bendix 6080WB with the c3gS and less than 5 hours of burn-in, but as far as I can tell, they sound awesome, thought they would make my ears bored, but till now nothing at least, it doesn't get anywere near a boring experience, the Bendix 6080WB are probably doing better their job than one should expect though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  


lord raven said:


> Many congratulations, and happy listening. What is your other setup? Just curious.
> 
> PS I hear people selling C3GS and moving onto ECC31. What's next?


 
 Thank you LR!
  
  
 My power tubes right now are the Bendix 6080WB and the standard 6N13S which came with Amp. As drivers tubes I have also the standard 6H8C, Siemens C3G and Lorenz C3G (Haven't used them yet, perhaps I might sell these).
  
 Unfortunately for my wallet, I'm always up-to-date with this thread which means I'll probably get ECC31 somewhere soon...


----------



## hypnos1

Aahhh...looks like the LDVTATube Rolling Guide bug is migrating - fun times ahead, methinks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Hopefully someone will be lucky enough to find an equal to the C3g, without the need for special adapters - or at least with commercially available ones...I fear the time is approaching when family commitments will prevent me from being able to make them alas, given they take me 2 days the pair lol!
  
 And fortunately I have found my own end-game setup....which is just as well...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I am truly content, at last. I shall certainly miss the thrill of the chase however, but look forward to seeing how things move on from here. It's good to know there's now an enthusiastic team of Elise owners...I can begin to take a bit of a back seat, and stay happy.


----------



## nephilim

Speaking of getting your name printed on tubes... Sometimes I wonder if those NOS tubes with perfectly printed labels don't look to good to be true. Or if the tube is printed like an advertisement...
  
 What do you feel about this one?
  
http://www.ebay.de/itm/ECC31-MULLARD-VALVE-TUBE-MADE-IN-GREAT-BRITAIN-/221705309572?hash=item339eaa8d84


----------



## hypnos1

>


 
  
 Hi MP.


musclepharm said:


> True that, I couldn't stand with those tubes in their boxes knowing their potential and I had to tube roll them in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi MP...less than 5 hours and already awesome? This bodes well indeed for the 50+ mark, lol!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And good to hear the C3gs pair well with the Bendix tubes...look forward to further in-depth impressions as the burn-in process continues...
  
 CHEERS!


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> F~R~A~N~K~E~N~S~T~E~I~N
> 
> Here we go...


 
  
 I sincerely doubt that anyone with an Elise is ever going to build anything like our Little "Monster" Dots. lol
  

  
 But if H1's experience with the FDD20, which is on its way to him, is extremely positive, who knows?


----------



## gibosi

musclepharm said:


> I'm now using the Bendix 6080WB with the c3gS and less than 5 hours of burn-in, but as far as I can tell, they sound awesome, thought they would make my ears bored, but till now nothing at least, it doesn't get anywere near a boring experience, the Bendix 6080WB are probably doing better their job than one should expect though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I found the best power tube match-up for the Siemens C3G to be the slotted Bendix. And I liked the Lorenz/Bendix combination even more. But of course, this is with a different amp, different cans and different ears.


----------



## mordy

Checked up a little on re-branded tubes and forgery. Found an article that stated that there is no such a thing as a B stock tube. Either the tube is up to specifications or it is not. And if not, it is crushed at the factory.
  
 In the old days, people would try to obtain returned defective or worn out tubes and then scrape off the labels, reprint them, and return them to the manufacturer for credit.
  
 https://www.google.com/search?q=Rebranded+vacuum+tube+fraud&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
  
 If you click on this link you could amuse yourself by reading the two first articles from 1957 and1956.  The second link is a PDF - go to page 40 to read about a professional re-brander who got two years in jail.
  
 One piece of advice given to avoid getting a forged tube is to insist on the original box. Alas, that just doesn't work today....Most of the tubes I buy come without boxes somehow.
  
 Asked by a factory why this con artist wanted to buy a truck load of discarded tubes, he answered that he needs them for shooting targets in an arcade!
  




  
 Funny, eh?


----------



## Oskari

Yeah, there were all sorts of rebranders; some even washed used tubes.


----------



## Lord Raven

I have seen those tubes when I was looking for my first tube amp, these are extremely microphonics to touch. Built for rockets? I doubt that  They are good for hand held, battery powered tube amps for IEMs, aren't they?  And they are also cheap AFAIK.
  
 Quote:


shaffer said:


> I vote for small signal tubes. I'm playing with some ATM and waiting for 6922 adapters to arrive. So far, the results are encouraging.


 
  
 You're always one step head in the adapter making  hehe


gibosi said:


> Sub-miniature "pencil" tubes.


 
  
 What about the HPs, the source, and the cables?  You'll be able to sell these tubes and their adapters very quick 
  
 I am also interested in ECC31 tubes, they're proving to be the end game for Elise. Expensive though!
  


musclepharm said:


> Thank you LR!
> 
> 
> My power tubes right now are the Bendix 6080WB and the standard 6N13S which came with Amp. As drivers tubes I have also the standard 6H8C, Siemens C3G and Lorenz C3G (Haven't used them yet, perhaps I might sell these).
> ...


----------



## mordy

Hi LR,
  
 The sub miniature were definitively developed for use in military missile systems, among other uses. Read on:
  
  
"Subminiature Tubes: The Future of Audio!  by Phil Taylor





 Subminiature tubes for portable battery operated radio receivers © Radio Division of Sylvania Electric Products Inc. May 6, 1949

 
The first practical subminiature tubes were designed and developed by _Raytheon_ in the 1940s. These tubes were sometimes referred to as “pencil” tubes because of their small stature. They’re approximately a quarter of the size of the miniature B9A tube types found in guitar amplifiers, and instead of pins they have flexible leads just like transistors. *These tiny tubes were manufactured to meet the stringent MIL-E-1 specification for reliability and designed for long service life under conditions of severe shock, vibration (up to 20,000G), high temperature and high altitude. These tubes were some of the most meticulously built and most rigorously tested of all tubes, as their main intended use was extreme military applications, such as missile guidance. They’re exceedingly tough and will easily withstand a drop test from a height of three to four feet onto a tiled or concrete floor without breaking.*
Below is an extract from an old _RCA_ datasheet for their 6021 medium mµ double triode tube that gives an idea of the supreme engineering effort that went into ensuring the reliability and consistency of subminiature tubes:
_RCA-6021 is a subminature medium mu twin triode of the heated cathode type having flexible leads. It is intended for is use in oscillator and amplifier at frequencies up to 400 Mc (that’s 400MHz in today’s money and overkill for audio applications). Constructed to give dependable performance under conditions of shock and vibration, this “premium” tubes is especially suited for use in mobile and aircraft equipment and is rated for service at altitudes up to 60000 feet without the use of pressurized chambers._
_The design of the 6021 incorporates a compact structure in which special attention has been given to the following features:_

_“U” frame construction to keep the mount rigid and prevent distortion of plates._
_Precisely made and accurately fitted tube parts, including new mica design, to lock the parts firmly in place._
_Grid side rods having high heat conductivity to provide cool operation of the grids._
_Pure tungsten heater having high mechanical strength._
_Getter shield to prevent deposit of getter flash on tube elements._
_Pure nickel plate to minimize evolution of gas._
 _As a result of its structural design this tube is characterized by:_

_Small spread in electrical characteristics._
_Reduced microphonic effects._
_Reduced grid emission._
_Long life under frequent on-off switching._
_Low leakage currents and high leakage resistance between the elements (plate, grid and cathode)._
 _In addition, this tube utlizes separate terminals for each cathode to permit flexibility of circuit arrangement._
_Manufactured under rigid controls, the 6021 undergoes rigorous tests during manufacture to insure its “premium” quality as follows: test reading at the end of 1 hour, 100 hours and 500 hours to ensure that tubes fall within the established tight characteristics limits and that early failures are held to a low percentage._
They weren’t messing about were they. These tubes were to be used in extreme environments and mission critical situations. The result of this wartime driven engineering effort are some of the finest tubes ever made. These little devices represent the absolute pinnacle of tube technology and offer more consistent and reliable performance than the early N.O.S. germanium transistors. The Raytheon datasheet boldly states, _*“Tubes developed for this purpose proved so rugged that in-operative failures became very rare.”*_. Impressive stuff, eh. It’s also fascinating to consider that if the development of the transistor had been delayed for just a few more years, these tubes might have become the standard amplification device used in the audio industry today.




Some types were designed to operate at low heater and B+ voltages enabling the development of battery operated equipment such as portable operated radio receivers in submarines, domestic radio and hearing aids. The tubes were supplied with 8-pin subminiature leads suitable for use in subminiature sockets or printed circuits. They have a maximum diameter of 0.400” and a maximum seated height of 1 ½ inches and can be mounted in any position.
The smaller physical dimensions of a subminiature tube do not necessarily guarantee that it will be completely immune to microphonic pickup or exhibit lower microphony than their more commonly used miniature B9A counterparts. Microphonic sensitivity entirely depends on how rigid the elements (plate, grid and cathode) within the glass envelope are relative to one another and how well isolated they are from any sound or vibration sources. This in turn depends on how well the tube was designed (how smart the design engineers were – in the case of RCA, very smart) and manufactured (how well the assembly technician put it together). The theoretical ideal of a tube with zero microphony would require it to be manufactured from parts with infinite precision and materials of infinite rigidity. Even when the tube industry was at it’s zenith during the 1960s, manufacturing tubes for military and laboratory applications using the finest materials and best techniques of the time it wasn’t possible to achieve this. Consequently the only way to find tubes of exceptionally low microphony is to hand-select them from a given batch by audio testing.
Digressing a little, this is why silicone o-ring tube dampers are ineffective – they only have a small effect on the mass of the glass envelope but do not stop vibration being transmitted into the elements through the pins on the base. Additionally tube dampers do absolutely nothing to minimize the inter-electrode movement. However, this is a redundant point as the marketeers aren’t selling dampers for subminiature tubes…yet. And digressing just a little further, there is a remedial solution for reducing micophonic pickup in tubes (that actually works!), for miniature B9A tubes such as the 12AX7 – a N.O.S. shock-proof socket. The one certain thing that can be said of any microphony in subminiature tubes is that it is typically very low and centered around higher frequencies because the small elements resonate (ring like a bell) at higher frequencies.


 true that the sub miniature tubes were made for military applications in missile sytems. "
  
 We tested a number of these in the LD amps on the Little Dot thread, both US and Russian made. While some of them sound quite good I did not find them superior in sound to 6SN7 tubes, and not in the class of the C3g tube.
  
 On the other hand, if you drop one on the floor nothing will happen in contrast to a 6AS7 which will be a memory if that happens.....
  
 There is a post on the LD thread on how to build a solderless adapter for these tubes - maybe somebody remembers where it is.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> I sincerely doubt that anyone with an Elise is ever going to build anything like our Little "Monster" Dots. lol
> 
> 
> 
> But if H1's experience with the FDD20, which is on its way to him, is extremely positive, who knows?


 
  
 Ouy-Vay!
  
 That would definitely deter from my enjoyment of the hobby,
  
 Style is important, and neatness counts.
  
 I won't be monster-izing my Elise, and that is positively guaranteed.


----------



## Shaffer

[OT] Every once in a while, I surf ebay for precision tools. Mostly, by Eram and Lingstrom. These tools are typically used for watch and jewelry making, and small-scale electronics work. They usually sell for $50-$80, as a median range, but when ebay sleeps they can be had for a fraction of that cost. Originally, I started buying the tools for working on turntables, but have found some to be almost indispensable for tube amps. Need to bend a pin just so, pull out a socket insert or push one in, all without disturbing the associated circuity? No problem. Hold a resistor lead in a spot with virtually no room? Easy-peasy. Other uses, as well. I'd suggest this to everyone. [/OT]


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> Ouy-Vay!
> 
> That would definitely deter from my enjoyment of the hobby,
> 
> ...


 
 Wholeheartedly agree.


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 Could you describe the tools in more detail? Pictures?
  
 PS: I have found that Google Images is an excellent sources for pictures, and many times I do not need to take them themselves since they are available on Google Images. U only need to to copy and paste.


----------



## Shaffer

...some of the tools that I have and recommend. Keep in mind, folks, they're small and high precision.


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> Checked up a little on re-branded tubes and forgery. Found an article that stated that there is no such a thing as a B stock tube. Either the tube is up to specifications or it is not. And if not, it is crushed at the factory.
> 
> In the old days, people would try to obtain returned defective or worn out tubes and then scrape off the labels, reprint them, and return them to the manufacturer for credit.





Nice work, Mordy. 

Glad to hear B stock is a myth and that rebrands can sound as good as famous logo tubes. 

Can't wait to hear my WG&Co Sylvania's in the Elise.


----------



## mordy

Just pulled out a Swedish precision needle nose pliers that I bought some 57 years ago. It looks similar to the light blue pliers (third from bottom) but without plastic handles - didn't exist then. It is made by E. A. Berg in the same town as the original Lindstrom tools. (Both companies were bought by the same company later in time.)
  
 After all these years the pliers are in excellent condition with no play - talk about quality! And yes, I have used it to straighten out tube pins...


----------



## SonicTrance

mordy said:


> Just pulled out a Swedish precision needle nose pliers that I bought some 57 years ago. It looks similar to the light blue pliers (third from bottom) but without plastic handles - didn't exist then. It is made by E. A. Berg in the same town as the original Lindstrom tools. (Both companies were bought by the same company later in time.)
> 
> After all these years the pliers are in excellent condition with no play - talk about quality! And yes, I have used it to straighten out tube pins...


 
 That's Swedish quality for you


----------



## UntilThen

57 years from now Elise will still be looking pristine. That's Polish quality.


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Guys 
  
 Are these hit or a miss? Thanks, please tell me their expected prices if you think they're any good.
  
 Cheers


----------



## gibosi

lord raven said:


> Are these hit or a miss? Thanks, please tell me their expected prices if you think they're any good.


 
  
 While I don't have the Russian tube, it doesn't get much love in the 6SN7 thread and therefore, it might be best to pass on it.
  
 The second is a 6SA7, which is a heptode, and not compatible with the Elise, so you definitely don't want to buy it. Notice 6AS7 vs 6SA7.


----------



## Shaffer

I have the same Russian tubes. They're not awful, but nothing special.

Edit: My 6922 adapters are due to arrive today. I have a couple of pairs of tubes: Sovtek 6922 and matched set of Audio Research's factory 6DJ8H. I also have a single RAM 6DJ8 for a DV. Have had them in my tube box, that used to be significantly smaller, for 20 years.

If this works out, I'd like to pick up the '70s Russian tubes that gibosi recommended. Eventually. Lots of tubage [is that a word?] on my rack these days.

Too, turns out that a friend has a Niles switch box that he's not using; it's on its way to me. I wanted something higher quality, and will likely have one made in the future, but knowing that I can hook up all of my amps (5) without splitters is a relief.


----------



## mordy

Hi Mister X,
  
 Det Svenska stalet biter...
  
 Actually, when i first arrived in the US in the 60's I was surprised to see that other countries also manufacture very high quality steel products LOL.


----------



## Shaffer

I finally have a horny amp. The WA6 came with three rectifiers: a Raytheon, a re-labeled Mullard in a ST envelope (what a light show!), and the tube above - Raytheon RK60/1641. Mine is a JAN CDR 731. I've always noticed a sonic difference with various rectifiers, to varying degrees, but in this amp the big bottle makes as much difference as the drivers/power tubes. The rectifier audibly modifies the sound of the other two tubes. Greatly. Night and day. No exaggeration. Not that I'm Mr.Tube, but this is a first for me.


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> ...some of the tools that I have and recommend. Keep in mind, folks, they're small and high precision.


 
  
 Ooooh...they look positively lovely, S...quality tools certainly do make the jobs much more enjoyable...and less troublesome, lol!!


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Hi Mister X,
> 
> Det Svenska stalet biter...
> 
> Actually, when i first arrived in the US in the 60's *I was surprised to see that other countries also manufacture very high quality steel products LOL.*




LOL!! You better not go on garagejournal.com - the premium tool forum - with that notion. 

We're talking WAR!


----------



## Shaffer

hypnos1 said:


> Ooooh...they look positively lovely, S...quality tools certainly do make the jobs much more enjoyable...and less troublesome, lol!!




Thank you, my friend. Less troublesome is the key phrase.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Edit: My 6922 adapters are due to arrive today. I have a couple of pairs of tubes: Sovtek 6922 and matched set of Audio Research's factory 6DJ8H. I also have a single RAM 6DJ8 for a DV. Have had them in my tube box, that used to be significantly smaller, for 20 years.
> 
> If this works out, I'd like to pick up the '70s Russian tubes that gibosi recommended. Eventually. Lots of tubage [is that a word?] on my rack these days.


 
  
 One more tube that requires a 6922 adapter is the 6FW8. Back in the day when Philips introduced the 6DJ8/ECC88, RCA was the biggest dog in the tube world. And RCA decided that they were not going to pay Philips for the privilege of manufacturing this tube. Typical big company hubris perhaps? lol. Rather, they decided to manufacture a similar tube of their own, and thus the 6FW8 was born. While a perfect plug-in substitute for the 6DJ8, the 6FW8 was a failure in the market place. No one wanted it. And in the end, in order to satisfy their customers, RCA was forced to purchase Philips 6DJ8 and resell them under the RCA name.
  
 It's not a bad sounding tube, but not great either. And given that it was a marketplace failure, it's pretty rare, but on the other hand, it's usually cheap. For tube collectors like myself, its backstory alone makes it worth having.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 I once asked David Zhe Zhe of Little Dot amps what the life expectancy is of his tube amps. He answered around 20 years.
  
 It is difficult to ascertain how long amps like the Elise will continue to work, but from my personal experience high quality items can last a very long time.
  
 My present power amp is a 110W ss Sony amp from the 80's and except for a temperamental switch I have no problems with it. Recently sold stereo equipment that was from 1974 (Soundscraftsmen 2217 preamp-equalizer ) and 1995 (Headroom Max ) that were in very good working order - quality pays.
 .


----------



## Lord Raven

gibosi said:


> While I don't have the Russian tube, it doesn't get much love in the 6SN7 thread and therefore, it might be best to pass on it.
> 
> The second is a 6SA7, which is a heptode, and not compatible with the Elise, so you definitely don't want to buy it. Notice 6AS7 vs 6SA7.







shaffer said:


> I have the same Russian tubes. They're not awful, but nothing special.




The exact reason why I shouldn't do tube rolling


----------



## Shaffer

The *8*wpc ss receiver in my garage is from 1971. Works perfectly driving a pair of Missions.


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 Look, I came from this little country and I was young and dumb LOL. Well, maybe not so dumb; my first US bought stereo in 1967 was a KLH 20 suitcase stereo with speakers and a record changer. Sold it to somebody that had it a good 20 years.
  




  
 Memories - u closed the suitcase and attached the two speakers to the sides...


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> I finally have a horny amp. The WA6 came with three rectifiers: a Raytheon, a re-labeled Mullard in a ST envelope (what a light show!), and the tube above - Raytheon RK60/1641. Mine is a JAN CDR 731. I've always noticed a sonic difference with various rectifiers, to varying degrees, but in this amp the big bottle makes as much difference as the drivers/power tubes. The rectifier audibly modifies the sound of the other two tubes. Greatly. Night and day. No exaggeration. Not that I'm Mr.Tube, but this is a first for me.


 
  
 Yes indeed. Rectifiers can and do change the sound. One might say that vacuum tube rectifiers differ in their conversion efficiency. You will often see the term "voltage drop". For example, as I understand this, if you put 250VAC in, and the Vdrop is 20, you will get 230VDC out. With another rectifier, the vdrop might be 30, and the output voltage would be 220VDC. So the builder designs around a specific rectifier, compensating for the Vdrop, to provide the desired cathode, grid and plate voltages. If another rectifier is used, with a different Vdrop, those voltage values change, the biasing changes, and as a result, the sound changes. Typically, rectifiers with a large Vdrop tend to have a softer and warmer sound, while a small Vdrop is more dynamic, crisp and cool.
  
 It was quite a surprise to me to notice how much difference rectifiers make. My current default is a Blackburn/Mullard GZ32, which is very good, but I am itching to try one of the higher rated ones. However, the current prices for these are sky-high, so I am patiently waiting for one to pop up while eBay is sleeping. lol


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Hi Shaffer,
> 
> Look, I came from this little country and I was young and dumb LOL.




I totally can relate. We flew in on TWA in 1975. Took a decade or so to get a grasp on the culture. Of course, I didn't speak a word of English. Good times.



> Well, maybe not so dumb; my first US bought stereo in 1967 was a KLH 20 suitcase stereo with speakers and a record changer. Sold it to somebody that had it a good 20 years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




KLH made good stuff.


----------



## Renderman

I received my Philips Miniwatt ECC31, the adapters did not arrive jet. Decided to take a picture anyway, just for kicks put them in the Elise:


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Yes indeed. Rectifiers can and do change the sound. One might say that vacuum tube rectifiers differ in their conversion efficiency. You will often see the term "voltage drop". For example, as I understand this, if you put 250VAC in, and the Vdrop is 20, you will get 230VDC out. With another rectifier, the vdrop might be 30, and the output voltage would be 220VDC. So the builder designs around a specific rectifier, compensating for the Vdrop, to provide the desired cathode, grid and plate voltages. If another recifier is used, with a different Vdrop, those voltage values change, the biasing changes, and as a result, the sound changes. Typically, rectifiers with a large Vdrop tend to have a softer and warmer sound, while a small Vdrop is more dynamic, crisp and cool.




...excellent and much appreciated info.



> It was quite a surprise to me to notice how much difference rectifiers make. My current default is a Blackburn/Mullard GZ32, which is very good, but I am itching to try one of the higher rated ones. However, the current prices for these are sky-high, so I am patiently waiting for one to pop up while eBay is sleeping. lol




Supposedly, after working Dr.Google, my relabeled Mullard may be related to the GZ32. Of course, I have no idea whether it's true. The tube does have a very impressive spacial presentation, a good sense of clarity especially in the mids, relatively soft on top, and little bass weight. ST envelope, brown base, Rogers brand, single rectangular bottom getter, Black T-plates with 6 small rectangular holes, round mica with saw-tooth edges opposing each other 180*. 5V4G and OT. Britain on the glass. The base has PJ L stamped on it. Does that happen to ring a bell?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Supposedly, after working Dr.Google, my relabeled Mullard may be related to the GZ32. Of course, I have no idea whether it's true. The tube does have a very impressive spacial presentation, a good sense of clarity especially in the mids, relatively soft on top, and little bass weight. ST envelope, brown base, Rogers brand, single rectangular bottom getter, Black T-plates with 6 small rectangular holes, round mica with saw-tooth edges opposing each other 180*. 5V4G and OT. Britain on the glass. The base has PJ L stamped on it. Does that happen to ring a bell?


 
  
 There is a lot of confusion out there regarding the GZ32. The US designation is 5AQ4. The 5V4G is often described as a GZ32 by eBay vendors, but in terms of its maximum DC output, it is not a direct substitute. For example, my amp requires about 225ma to operate. The 5AQ4/GZ32 max is 250ma, which is fine. However, the 5VAG max is 175ma. If I were to use a 5V4G, it would fail big time.
  
 While I can't use it, the Brimar 5VAG is considered a best buy in Woo World. And it appears that Mullard/Philips also manufactured the 5V4G, but again, as I can't use this tube, I don't know anything about it.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> There is a lot of confusion out there regarding the GZ32. The US designation is 5AQ4. The 5V4G is often described as a GZ32 by eBay vendors, but in terms of its maximum DC output, it is not a direct substitute. For example, my amp requires about 225ma to operate. The 5AQ4/GZ32 max is 250ma, which is fine. However, the 5VAG max is 175ma. If I were to use a 5V4G, it would fail big time.
> 
> *While I can't use it, the Brimar 5VAG is considered a best buy in Woo World. And it appears that Mullard/Philips also manufactured the 5V4G*, but again, as I can't use this tube, I don't know anything about it.




I was actually aiming for the Brimar, but three things changed my mind: The tube I have now whose sound, while very pleasant, is not per my preference. Secondly, the individual who originally hyped the tube is suspect, IMO, as to his audio-competence and his aural expectations. Thirdly, as the Woo community seems to prefer a very soft, non-offensive sound, this also doesn't mesh with my preference structure. 

IOW, I have no idea which rectifier to look for. I want speed, blinding quick transient response, gobs of detail, a vivid, incisive presentation, and very good bass (articulation, extension, etc). Any ideas?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> I was actually aiming for the Brimar, but three things changed my mind: The tube I have now whose sound, while very pleasant, is not per my preference. Secondly, the individual who originally hyped the tube is suspect, IMO, as to his audio-competence and his aural expectations. Thirdly, as the Woo community seems to prefer a very soft, non-offensive sound, this also doesn't mesh with my preference structure.
> 
> IOW, I have no idea which rectifier to look for. I want speed, blinding quick transient response, gobs of detail, a vivid, incisive presentation, and very good bass (articulation, extension, etc). Any ideas?


 
  
 Perhaps a GZ34...
  
 In the meantime, this is a great resource:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/694525/dubstep-girls-massive-5ar4-5r4-5u4g-rectifier-review-comparison-rectifer-tube-rolling-thread


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Perhaps a GZ34...
> 
> In the meantime, this is a great resource:
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/694525/dubstep-girls-massive-5ar4-5r4-5u4g-rectifier-review-comparison-rectifer-tube-rolling-thread




Thanks!


----------



## UntilThen

mordy said:


> Hi UT,
> 
> I once asked David Zhe Zhe of Little Dot amps what the life expectancy is of his tube amps. He answered around 20 years.
> 
> ...


 
 I was kidding about 57 years but 20 years seems good enough. The first sign of wear is probably the tube sockets from tube rolling. 
  
 Btw that turntable looks good.


----------



## UntilThen

renderman said:


> I received my Philips Miniwatt ECC31, the adapters did not arrive jet. Decided to take a picture anyway, just for kicks put them in the Elise:


 
 Elise is getting so much love now. Those tubes cost more than her.
  
 Grats on those tubes Ren. It's priceless once you get the sound you love.


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> Ouy-Vay!
> 
> That would definitely deter from my enjoyment of the hobby,
> 
> ...


 
  
  
  


untilthen said:


> Wholeheartedly agree.


 
  
 Fear not guys...luckily we can get GREAT sound from our Elises..._without _having to do a Mary Shelley! (Thank God!!).
  
 Mind you, if it weren't for all this kind of pioneering work on our LittleDots, there would probably be NO Elise, lol!
  
 I must also say however, that this kind of thing _can_ be done 'nice and neatly'...exhibit #1   :   
  
 Those are 6AS7Gs in the back of my MKIV SE...which just shouldn't be there!!


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> I must also say however, that this kind of thing _can_ be done 'nice and neatly'...exhibit #1   :
> 
> Those are 6AS7Gs in the back of my MKIV SE...which just shouldn't be there!!


 
 H1 those tubes look right at home on the LD. I think LD MK4se, 6 and 9 looks really good. Don't toss that MK4se away


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> H1 those tubes look right at home on the LD. I think LD MK4se, 6 and 9 looks really good. Don't toss that MK4se away


 
  
 They certainly did wonders for the humble LD...but sad to say, she is _still _pining away in the loft (attic)!! - haven't the heart to move her on...yet!


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> I received my Philips Miniwatt ECC31, the adapters did not arrive jet. Decided to take a picture anyway, just for kicks put them in the Elise:


 
  
 I feel your pain, R!...any idea when you'll be able to light(?!) them up? I do hope it's not _too_ slow a boat from China/Hong Kong...


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 The Little Dot saw hundreds of tubes going in and out without problems. However, I bought some inexpensive socket savers for the Elise just in case. Another benefit from the socket savers that I did no realize until I experienced it is that the amp runs cooler. It seems that the extra layer of Bakelite insulates the chassis from the heat of the tubes.
  
 Using the socket savers, even with hot running 6080 tubes, plus the aluminum cone footers I put under the Elise, eliminates the need for the fans that I used to use for cooling. The amp gets warm but not hot which should prolong it's life as well.


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> I feel your pain, R!...any idea when you'll be able to light(?!) them up? I do hope it's not _too_ slow a boat from China/Hong Kong...


 
 You guessed it! Could be here as early as next wednesday or might take a week longer...


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> You guessed it! Could be here as early as next wednesday or *might take a week longer.*..


 
  
 Can't wait _that_ long, mon ami!!   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


----------



## nephilim

untilthen said:


> The first sign of wear is probably the tube sockets from tube rolling.


 
  
 I would like to disagree  While the Elise is perfectly built, the volume knob on mine -in comparison- feels rather cheap. I guess it is some kind of plastic, which looks matte on the center portion of the front face and rear part of the lateral surface but almost glossy around the chamfered edge. I would have preferred a metal knob. And yes... I cleaned before making this statement 
  
 My ECC31 seem to improve


----------



## Shaffer

Bad news: 6922s in my Elise produced an absolutely frighting hum. No go. The tube is fine in the DV, though.

Good news: the other small signal tubes I'm trying out do work with the Elise. As soon as I'm confident in what I hear, I'll post a bit about it.


----------



## UntilThen

Perfect Mordy. I knew my Darkvoice socket savers would come in handy. Just need another pair.
  
 Nep ...did you say plastic !!!  I have to ask Lukasz for an upgrade option.


----------



## nephilim

Maybe it's coated metal but the knob feels soft(er than e.g. the LD3) and the color is not homogenous. It does feel nice but quality wise I feel it's the Elise's weakest spot - and honestly the only one 
  
 But then I just paid lots of €s for plastic HD800 where the paint is going to chip in a few months


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Bad news: 6922s in my Elise produced an absolutely frighting hum. No go. The tube is fine in the DV, though.
> 
> Good news: the other small signal tubes I'm trying out do work with the Elise. As soon as I'm confident in what I hear, I'll post a bit about it.


 
  
 That is unfortunate... 
  
 Coincidentally, I have been listening to E80CC/6085 recently. These are premium 10,000 hour tubes with lower distortion and better linearity than a strapped C3g. Many in the Crack world consider this tube to be endgame.
  
 A 1961 Tungsram with rhodium pins is to the left and a 1955 Philips/Eindhoven with gold pins to the right. The Tungsram is a little cooler with more air and the Philips is a bit warmer. However, both are excellent and the "best" is simply a matter of taste and preference.
  
 These require a 12AU7 to 6SN7 adapter and you are good to go.


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> I would like to disagree  While the Elise is perfectly built, the volume knob on mine -in comparison- feels rather cheap. I guess it is some kind of plastic, which looks matte on the center portion of the front face and rear part of the lateral surface but almost glossy around the chamfered edge. I would have preferred a metal knob. And yes... I cleaned before making this statement
> 
> My ECC31 seem to improve


 
  
 Hi n.
  
 That knob is one of the biggest pieces of machined and anodised aluminium I've seen on any stock amp, lol...:
  


  
 This (bare one) is one chunk of metal...which I intend (one day!) to get gold-plated...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Perhaps the anodising on yours didn't end up fully even? Or could it be deliberate 'shading'? Whatever, be assured it is NOT plastic!...


----------



## nephilim

OK, that's good news that there are more beautiful knobs out there  Maybe I will contact Lukasz one day - I might even get a knob with a dot )


----------



## UntilThen

I'm learning more about power tubes reading the 6AS7G forums. Just discovered Mullard CV2984 is the UK designation for 6080 and that it's pretty well regarded. Bought this pair new for US$56 and postage free since the seller is from Australia. It says paired 1967.


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> I'm learning more about power tubes reading the 6AS7G forums. Just discovered Mullard CV2984 is the UK designation for 6080 and that it's pretty well regarded. Bought this pair new for US$56 and postage free since the seller is from Australia. It says paired 1967.


 
  
 You did well! 
  
 The date codes, YM and YK are very close. When looking at early British Common Valve(CV), two letters are used to indicate the date starting in 1945. So the first letter A = 1945 and the second letter A = January. Letters I and O were not used. Thus AA = January, 1945, YM = December, 1967 and YK = October, 1967.


----------



## UntilThen

You make my day G !   You even pick the month.
 These are the additional codes. I think you mention something about it in the other thread but I can't quite make out how to decipher it.
  
 Tube 1 - AJ1 R7J1
 Tube 2 - AJ1 R7L2


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> You make my day G !   You even pick the month.
> These are the additional codes. I think you mention something about it in the other thread but I can't quite make out how to decipher it.
> 
> Tube 1 - AJ1 R7J1
> Tube 2 - AJ1 R7L2


 
  
 AJ = 6080
 1 = change code/revision number
 R = Mullard/Mitcham
 7J1 = first week, October,1967
 7L2 = second week, December, 1967
  
 So as you can see, these match the silkscreened CV date codes.
  
 Cheers


----------



## Shaffer

Well, guys, I feel like I graduated to the big leagues; got my first Mullard today. It's a 6SN7GTB. It came with a fairly large assortment of tubes in the trade deal: TS 6SN7GTB, Sylvania and RCA 6SN7GTs, Raytheon GTAs, Chatham, Raytheon, and Sovtek 6AS7G and a whole bunch more. 

Plus, a 6922 is killer with the DV. It's like a whole new amp. I have it paired with a Chatham 6AS7.

The WA6 is sounding a lot better. I've isolated three pairs of tubes that I really like and the devil horns rectifier is fantastic. The amp sounds little like when it first arrived. It's still a bit soft and laid back, but at least I feel comfortable comparing it to the Elise. Truth be told, a tweaked DV is a more fair comparison. At least at this stage. Don't put too much credence into these impressions; I'll need at least a month to get a handle on the thing.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Well, guys, I feel like I graduated to the big leagues; got my first Mullard today. It's a 6SN7GTB. It came with a fairly large assortment of tubes in the trade deal.....


 
  
 You should know.... Everyone should know... Mullard never, ever manufactured the 6SN7. And therefore, this tube was manufactured elsewhere and rebranded and sold as a Mullard. A picture would be very helpful.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> AJ = 6080
> 1 = change code/revision number
> R = Mullard/Mitcham
> 7J1 = first week, October,1967
> ...


 
 Thanks big time G. That's really helpful. I was actually eyeing those 5998 on eBay. Should have bought the pair on buyout but soon as I bid on it the buyout disappear. I was outbid on $180 and that's when I said goodbye to it. That pair will go above 200 easy. You reckon 5998 worth that much a pair?


----------



## UntilThen

shaffer said:


> Well, guys, I feel like I graduated to the big leagues; got my first Mullard today. It's a 6SN7GTB. It came with a fairly large assortment of tubes in the trade deal: TS 6SN7GTB, Sylvania and RCA 6SN7GTs, Raytheon GTAs, Chatham, Raytheon, and Sovtek 6AS7G and a whole bunch more.
> 
> Plus, a 6922 is killer with the DV. It's like a whole new amp. I have it paired with a Chatham 6AS7.
> 
> The WA6 is sounding a lot better. I've isolated three pairs of tubes that I really like and the devil horns rectifier is fantastic. The amp sounds little like when it first arrived. It's still a bit soft and laid back, but at least I feel comfortable comparing it to the Elise. Truth be told, a tweaked DV is a more fair comparison. At least at this stage. Don't put too much credence into these impressions; I'll need at least a month to get a handle on the thing.


 
 Ok there's a lot of things here that got my attention. 6922 is a killer did you say? What brand. The top ones are so expensive. My Aune T1 has a humble EH on it. 
  
 A tweaked DV?!!! Now I'm all ears   
  
 Yes I've never seen a Mullard 6SN7.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello everybody, I've been vaguely following this thread over the past week, hoping to gain some insight before I possibly buy the Elise in the future. But every time I leave this thread scratching my head - everything seems very hazy to me. Perhaps somebody would be nice enough to clear up a few things for me please:
  
 * Does the Elise amp sound really inferior or sub-par with the stock tubes? I ask this because all this mention about tube rolling makes me wonder if it sounds bad on arrival
  
 * Which types of tubes are compatible with this amp? (including the ones that need an adapter)
   + which type of tubes are compatible as power tubes?
   + what kind of a difference does it make to roll power tubes verses the 'main tubes'?
  
 * Is the talk about tube rolling usually regarding the Elise amp? Because some of it seems focused on other amps like the WA6
  
 Thanks in advance


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Ok there's a lot of things here that got my attention. 6922 is a killer did you say? What brand. The top ones are so expensive. My Aune T1 has a humble EH on it.
> 
> A tweaked DV?!!! Now I'm all ears
> 
> Yes I've never seen a Mullard 6SN7.




The Russian 6922s are very reasonable. They can be had for less than $10 each. I paid ~$7 for a used, tested pair shipped. Of course, one can pay a lot more. I like to play the, "Who can get it for less," game. This being said, if I weren't as interested and weren't willing to put in the time, I'd just buy tested tubes from reputable dealers. Hunting inexpensive quality tubes can be a hobby in itself.

There are a few things I'd like to mod on the DV: change the pot to a 100K, replace and/or bypass the coupling caps, and replace the passive parts in the signal path. That's about it.

Gotta tell ya, the Mullard sounds fantastic.


----------



## Renderman

decentlevi said:


> Hello everybody, I've been vaguely following this thread over the past week, hoping to gain some insight before I possibly buy the Elise in the future. But every time I leave this thread scratching my head - everything seems very hazy to me. Perhaps somebody would be nice enough to clear up a few things for me please:
> 
> * Does the Elise amp sound really inferior or sub-par with the stock tubes? I ask this because all this mention about tube rolling makes me wonder if it sounds bad on arrival
> 
> ...


 
 Hi DecentLevi, and welcome. I can understand your confusion. To be sure the Elise sounds great out od the box, and very good after about 150 hours of burn in. The stock tubes are quite good actually but, this is an amplifier that deserves world class tubes in my opinion. I suspect the reason most here try other tubes is because they can hear her potential even with the stock Russian tubes.
  
 Some of your other questions will be answered on the Elise tube rolling guide opening post.


----------



## UntilThen

Haha DL. Nearly everyone who buys a tube amp will want to experiment with other tubes. Whilst waiting for my Elise to come, I'm just as curious as you are about the stock tubes but the good citizens here assured me they are pretty good.
  
 All this tube rolling are because people want to get as much out of the Elise or for that matter any tube amp as possible. Tubes vary in prices, some can get real crazy whilst others are very reasonable.
  
 Elise makes use of 2 power tubes(the big back ones) and 2 driver tubes(the smaller front ones)
  
 For compatible power and driver tubes, go to the Elise site and open the manual. It's there. Besides those there are lots of other options using adapters. Example 7N7 to 6SN7 adapter. Don't worry too much about these for now.
  
 The main tubes are 6AS7 (power) and 6SN7 (driver).
  
 And you're perfectly fine with using just the stock tubes which I can confirm when I get mine. 
  
 ....and Renderman beats me to it.


----------



## Shaffer

decentlevi said:


> * Does the Elise amp sound really inferior or sub-par with the stock tubes? I ask this because all this mention about tube rolling makes me wonder if it sounds bad on arrival *It comes with high-quality, tested, matched to each socket tubes. We just like to play and the Elise's design allows us to do that.*
> 
> * Which types of tubes are compatible with this amp? (including the ones that need an adapter) * Output- 6080, 6AS7G, 5998, and others similar bottles whose numerical designations escape me at the moment. Drivers, 6SN7s are stock. I run 7N7 and 7AF7 with adapters. There are quite a few others [ie. small signal tubes] that can also be used with adapters. I'm just not ready to talk about them yet. Soon*
> + which type of tubes are compatible as power tubes? *Please see above*
> ...




...in bold.

 If you choose this amplifier, not only will you be getting sound quality that exists _way above_ its price-point, but also some of the best technical support on the forum. Good luck.


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> Thanks big time G. That's really helpful. I was actually eyeing those 5998 on eBay. Should have bought the pair on buyout but soon as I bid on it the buyout disappear. I was outbid on $180 and that's when I said goodbye to it. That pair will go above 200 easy. You reckon 5998 worth that much a pair?


 
  
 Unfortunately, 5998's typically go for $100 each, and more. Whether they are worth it is another question. I find that 5998's are often a bit noisier than most 6AS7 and 6080. On the other hand, if quiet, they are as good as the GEC 6AS7, but of course, with a slightly different sound signature. So I would not encourage anyone to pay big bucks, but I would say that $100/tube is probably a decent price.
  


untilthen said:


> Ok there's a lot of things here that got my attention. 6922 is a killer did you say? What brand. The top ones are so expensive. My Aune T1 has a humble EH on it.


 
  
 In my opinion, the best place to learn about 6922 is the Lyr thread. But to oversimplify, early 1960's Heerlen 6922/E88CC and mid 1970's Russian 6N23P seem to be the most popular.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/673709/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> In my opinion, the best place to learn about 6922 is the Lyr thread. But to oversimplify, early 1960's Heerlen 6922/E88CC and mid 1970's Russian 6N23P seem to be the most popular.
> 
> http://www.head-fi.org/t/673709/schiit-lyr-tube-rollers


 
 That's a good link. The 6N23Ps are Russian Rockets and apparently the 1975 ones are best. I got a pair and the adapters.
  
 These might beat the ECC31s H1 !!! It's HD800 with exciting bass.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello all, thanks very much for your comments on this!
  
 So from what I gather, it looks like the Elise sounds fantastic stock, maybe even as good as other amps in the two thousand-ish dollar range, but many of you play with tube rolling in quest of possibly customizing the sound even more to your liking.
  
 I already have a dozen 6SN7 tubes for my entry-level tube amp, so I will undoubtedly like to try them in the Elise. But they are all various brands / model numbers, so this brings be to another question: would it be practical or even recommended to pair two of the same _type _of tubes although they're different _model _numbers / brands? (for example Sylvania 6SN7 GT with Zenith 6SN7 GTA) 
  
 I already have the Cavalli Liq. Carbon amp on the way so we'll see if I even desire bigger/better after getting ahold of that beast 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But otherwise I remember distinctly how the Zana Deux sounded even better yet than the LC, so if the Elise sounds anywhere near the same playing field as the ZD, then I would probably love it too.


----------



## UntilThen

Yes you can have a mixture of 6SN7 in the driver pair. Looks like LC will keep you very happy for a while. However once you're in tubeland there's no stopping. You'll want more tubes, tube amps, headphones


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> That's a good link. The 6N23Ps are Russian Rockets and apparently the 1975 ones are best. I got a pair and the adapters.
> 
> These might beat the ECC31s H1 !!! It's HD800 with exciting bass.


 
  
 I very much doubt that, UT!...I, and others, found good 6SN7s beat them in our LDs...and the C3g - IMHO, and that of others also - leave them standing, albeit with a slightly lighter presentation than the 6N23P. Ergo my strongest doubts, lol!!
  


decentlevi said:


> Hello all, thanks very much for your comments on this!
> 
> So from what I gather, it looks like the Elise sounds fantastic stock, maybe even as good as other amps in the two thousand-ish dollar range,* but many of you play with tube rolling in quest of possibly customizing the sound even more to your liking.*
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi DL.
  
 Hope the guys have answered most, if not all, your questions...we do have a good team here! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And yes, there has been a good deal of related topics - from different quarters - that does take a bit of digesting sometimes, but a lot of very interesting/helpful info lies therein.
  
 And although it takes time, I'm sure those new to the thread may find more than they expected...even if it means a re-read sometimes (which I do myself, quite frequently - doesn't all stick in the poor ol' brain cells at first, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Cheers!


----------



## Renderman

OMG! The adapters arrived today already! It must be my lucky day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 These will go straight into the Elise! (and right after that the ECC31 of course)


----------



## UntilThen

Enjoy Renderman. Give us first impressions ....soon.
  
  
  
 Question:-
  
 Anyone use these as drivers on their Elise yet? They are listed as alternative drivers.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> Enjoy Renderman. Give us first impressions ....soon.


 
 Oh you can bet your bottom dollar I will!  Very first impressions are definetly more subbass and lower bass. But not reduced or laid back treble at all. In fact the highs are crisp and clear. Impressed so far


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> Oh you can bet your bottom dollar I will!  Very first impressions are definetly more subbass and lower bass. But not reduced or laid back treble at all. In fact the highs are crisp and clear. Impressed so far


 
  
 GREAT, R...glad I didn't have to wait too long either, lol!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just you wait 'til they _really_ open up, and those SWEET, detailed mids develop further...I'm salivating for you just at the thought of it!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
 And given that mine just kept on getting better even past the 50 hrs mark, I think you too are in for some happy, happy days (and nights!!) ahead...CHEERS!


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> Question:-
> 
> Anyone use these as drivers on their Elise yet? They are listed as alternative drivers.


 
  
 The 6F8G are electrically identical to the 6SN7, but obviously, they need an adapter. In my opinion, they sound about the same as their 6SN7 counterparts, with the exception of the National Union. To my ears, the round plate NU 6F8G is much better than the common black glass NU 6SN7.


----------



## gibosi

Also, if you have a 6F8G adapter, you can also use 6C8G. These are very similar to the 6SN7/6F8G, but have a bit more gain, comparable to that of the ECC32 and ECC88.
  
 Round plate NU on the left and round plate TS on the right


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> Also, if you have a 6F8G adapter, you can also use 6C8G. These are very similar to the 6SN7/6F8G, but have a bit more gain, *comparable to that of the ECC32 and ECC88.*
> 
> Round plate NU on the left and round plate TS on the right


 
 Is this a typo? Or are you really comparing ECC32 with ECC88? From what I can see those two tubes have about the same "gain" 32 vs 33 and that's were the similarities stop. Maybe I'm missing something, lol


----------



## gibosi

sonictrance said:


> Is this a typo? Or are you really comparing ECC32 with ECC88? From what I can see those two tubes have about the same "gain" 32 vs 33 and that's were the similarities stop. Maybe I'm missing something, lol


 
  
 I wrote:  "....but have a bit more gain, comparable to that of the ECC32 and ECC88."
  
 By this, I meant only that the gain was comparable. Only the gain.
  
 cheers


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> GREAT, R...glad I didn't have to wait too long either, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks 001! I think your well wishes helped in receiving the adapters sooner than expected! 
  
 These do seem NOS or very close to it. They seem to need some more burn-in time. There appears to be some slight hum which I hope will disappear later on. That does not curb my enthausiasm one bit though 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Thanks again!


----------



## SonicTrance

gibosi said:


> I wrote:  "....but have a bit more gain, comparable to that of the ECC32 and ECC88."
> 
> By this, I meant only that the gain was comparable. Only the gain.
> 
> cheers


 
 Ok, I misunderstood.


----------



## Renderman

The Philips ECC31 in fact *do* glow...


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> Thanks 001! I think your well wishes helped in receiving the adapters sooner than expected!
> 
> These do seem NOS or very close to it. They seem to need some more burn-in time. There appears to be some slight hum which I hope will disappear later on. That does not curb my enthausiasm one bit though
> 
> ...


 
  
 I hope that hum goes too, R...I have 4 of them, and not one has a hint of hum...the opposite in fact - they're among the quietest tubes I've had So fingers crossed...or else either a tube or adapter is not what it should be. But of course, hum is also common in the early days...


----------



## nephilim

I just got a cheap IR thermometer and checked the trafo casing after 4h: 38degC with the ECC31. Should be OK.
  
 Speaking of hum... I'm eagerly awaiting the new electricity meter which hopefully eliminates the background hum in 011.
  
 Listening to https://www.berliner-philharmoniker-recordings.com/simon-rattle-schumanns-symphonien.html in 192/24 - the ECC31ed double bass is pure joy for my right ear


----------



## Renderman

nephilim said:


> I just got a cheap IR thermometer and checked the trafo casing after 4h: 38degC with the ECC31. Should be OK.
> 
> Speaking of hum... I'm eagerly awaiting the new electricity meter which hopefully eliminates the background hum in 011.
> 
> Listening to https://www.berliner-philharmoniker-recordings.com/simon-rattle-schumanns-symphonien.html in 192/24 - the ECC31ed double bass is pure joy for my right ear


 
 I have a similar device and mine reads 40C for the top of the case and 43C at the top of the trafo casing with a 22C ambient temperature. These values are the same as they were with the Philips 6SN7GT as well as the Lorenz C3G.
  
 I do hope your new meter fixes the issue, reading your hunting story I think there s a good chance it will. Good luck!


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi should have an Elise. He has all the tubes. 
Thanks for sharing G. I'm afraid I'd want to try as much of them as possible.


----------



## UntilThen

Careful Nep those double layering bass are addictive. Glad you're all enjoying your ecc31.


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> gibosi should have an Elise. He has all the tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have a Glenn OTL, which is similar to the Elise. However, it has a vacuum tube rectifier, only one 6SN7/12SN7/25SN7 socket and 2 C3g sockets.
  
 Here with a Mullard GZ32 rectifier, two GEC 6AS7s and a Mullard ECC31.


----------



## UntilThen

I want that for next Christmas 
 That's a tube rolling dream. A plus is that you only need one ECC31 but 2 GEC 6AS7 ouch. I don't know about the Mullard rectifier but it looks ummm expensive lol. Do you have a review of how this sound somewhere?


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 will a single c3g with your adapter work in my Darkvoice 336se which use a single 6SN7 for driver? Need to confirm this before I experience 4th of July fireworks. By the way you're getting famous. Someone is enquiring about this adapter on the DV thread.


----------



## 2359glenn

untilthen said:


> hypnos1 will a single c3g with your adapter work in my Darkvoice 336se which use a single 6SN7 for driver? Need to confirm this before I experience 4th of July fireworks. By the way you're getting famous. Someone is enquiring about this adapter on the DV thread.


 

 No
 If it has one 6SN7 it is using 1/2 for each side it would need two C3g to do the job.
 Like in gibosi's amp above with two C3g sockets.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks for confirming Glenn.


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> I want that for next Christmas
> That's a tube rolling dream. A plus is that you only need one ECC31 but 2 GEC 6AS7 ouch. I don't know about the Mullard rectifier but it looks ummm expensive lol. Do you have a review of how this sound somewhere?


 
  
 Glenn's amps are custom built to the buyer's specifications, so it is difficult to say exactly what a Glenn OTL sounds like. Further, I have not had the opportunity to compare it with a DV, a Woo, an Elise or anything similar. Moreover, as you well know, tube selection make a huge difference. However, I am aware of a very nice review of one of his OTL's with a slightly different configuration than mine. This amp can use six 6BL7 tubes, six 6SN7 tubes, two or four 6AS7 tubes, or two 6336 tubes in the output stage.
  
 To my ears, this statement from the review describes my amp as well:
  
 "It is an extremely fast, powerful and detailed sounding amplifier yet it is also a warm, delicate and very refined sounding amplifier."
  
 http://www.tweak-fi.com/apps/blog/show/42754587-building-a-reference-system-part-2-glenn-s-headphone-amplifier


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> Also, if you have a 6F8G adapter, you can also use 6C8G. These are very similar to the 6SN7/6F8G, but have a bit more gain, comparable to that of the ECC32 and ECC88.
> 
> Round plate NU on the left and round plate TS on the right


 

 And the 6C8G are cheaper than the 6F8G tubes


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > I want that for next Christmas
> ...


 

 + it can heat your house in winter


----------



## UntilThen

mikelap said:


> + it can heat your house in winter


 
  I love that lol.
  
 That is an amazing review gibosi. Thanks for the link. I'm going to digest this slowly.
  
 Now where was I? I have forgotten Elise lol.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > gibosi should have an Elise. He has all the tubes.
> ...


 
 Wow!  gibosi, you have that baby filled with wonderful tubes


----------



## UntilThen

Is Tung Sol 6AS7G same as Chatham 6AS7G in terms of build and sonic qualities?
  
 This ^


----------



## DecentLevi

So I looked all over and I can't find the price of a Glenn OTL? Just interested in seeing about how much it costs compared to the Elise.
  
 Also would you mind giving some _general _comparisons of it to the Elise? Thanks!


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Is Tung Sol 6AS7G same as Chatham 6AS7G in terms of build and sonic qualities?
> 
> This ^




Yes.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Shaffer. I just bought a pair. Can't understand why Chatham are much more expensive than Tung Sol for 6AS7G on eBay. I'm all ready for Elise.


----------



## 2359glenn

decentlevi said:


> So I looked all over and I can't find the price of a Glenn OTL? Just interested in seeing about how much it costs compared to the Elise.
> 
> Also would you mind giving some _general _comparisons of it to the Elise? Thanks!


 

 The basic amp starts at $650.00 without upgrades and this amp sounds good.


----------



## DecentLevi

The Glenn OTL amp looks quite a bit heavier / larger than the Elise but for about the same price. Looks like rolling tubes with it would cost more too with all the tube slots.
  
 Has anyone compared the Glenn OTL to the Elise, or to the LF 339 or even the ZD amp?


----------



## Shaffer

decentlevi said:


> The Glenn OTL amp looks quite a bit heavier / larger than the Elise but for about the same price. Looks like rolling tubes with it would cost more too with all the tube slots.
> 
> *Has anyone compared the Glenn OTL to the Elise, or to the LF 339 or even the ZD amp?*




Can't speak for everyone, obviously, but I kinda doubt it. The Elise, like the Glenn, is not a mass-produced product and there aren't many around. We have a ZD owner among us, but he's mostly a Woo guy. Can't recall anyone owning a LF339, but I did write a comparative review of the DV336SE, which is somewhat similar. You can find it earlier in the thread. Sorry can't offer more help.


----------



## gibosi

decentlevi said:


> The Glenn OTL amp looks quite a bit heavier / larger than the Elise but for about the same price. Looks like rolling tubes with it would cost more too with all the tube slots.
> 
> Has anyone compared the Glenn OTL to the Elise, or to the LF 339 or even the ZD amp?


 
  
 In terms of tube slots the difference between the basic $650 amp and the Elise is that the Glenn has one rectifier and one driver, where as the Elise has two drivers, so the number of slots is the same. I have three upgrades: two C3g slots, a 6/12/25 volt switch (for the 6SN7 slot) and a "5998 switch" to provide the proper bias for 5998 output tubes.
  
 Oh, I should note the basic Glenn OTL has an 11+ amp power supply so it can run two 6336 output tubes. This tube allows one to use Grados and other low-Z cans.
  
 As I stated above, I have not had the opportunity to compare the Glenn to the Elise, a ZD, a Woo or anything similar, and I am not aware of any other reviews. And as Shaffer notes, the Glenn is a custom-made amp and there just aren't that many out there.


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> Is Tung Sol 6AS7G same as Chatham 6AS7G in terms of build and sonic qualities?


 
  
 It is necessary to examine the construction to be sure. Tung-Sol did not manufacture the 6AS7 until they bought Chatham. So it is not uncommon to see RCA 6AS7s rebranded as Tung-Sol. However, the one is this picture is Chatham.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> However, the one is this picture is Chatham.


 
 Thanks G. That's comforting to know 
 If you look at the pic the number 32266.. I think the 66 is the year.


----------



## DecentLevi

Thanks Gibosi for the info. on the Glenn OTL, I was just curious to see how it compared to those other amps as a baseline since I have no idea about it's sound character/attributes. It does seem however that the Elise would be a little easier to configure the tubes. If anybody else happens to compare the amps listed above sometime, I'm sure we would all enjoy the read.


----------



## gibosi

decentlevi said:


> Thanks Gibosi for the info. on the Glenn OTL, I was just curious to see how it compared to those other amps as a baseline since I have no idea about it's sound character/attributes. It does seem however that the Elise would be a little easier to configure the tubes. If anybody else happens to compare the amps listed above sometime, I'm sure we would all enjoy the read.


 
  
 I am a tube roller and collector, so one driver is the best configuration for me. I often stumble across good deals on single tubes and I can roll them immediately. I would find it frustrating to have to wait until I can find a decently matched pair, and worse, in some cases, I simply can't afford a decently matched pair. So for me, an amp requiring two drivers is not optimal, and in fact, harder and more expensive to outfit.
  
 In terms of a regulator, Glenn provided me with one to get started. But even so, 3DG4 and 5AW4s are cheap, typically less than $10. I am currently using a GZ32 and they can often be picked up for less than $50. You need only one and maybe a second for backup and you are done.
  
 And if you were to decide to get the C3g upgrade, the tube rolling possibilities are quite limited. I have seen only Siemens and Lorenz, but I suspect that Telefunken also made this tube. As these are 10,000 hour tubes, you really only need one pair of each, and you are done.
  
 But... this is the Elise thread, not the Glenn thread, so if you have more questions, let's move this to PM.
  
 Cheers


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> Thanks G. That's comforting to know
> If you look at the pic the number 32266.. I think the 66 is the year.


 
  
 I would agree. 3226644 == 1966, the 44th week.


----------



## DecentLevi

decentlevi said:


> ...would it be practical or even recommended to pair two of the same _type _of tubes although they're different _model _numbers / brands? (for example Sylvania 6SN7 GT with Zenith 6SN7 GTA)


 
  


untilthen said:


> Yes you can have a mixture of 6SN7 in the driver pair...


 
 Gibosi I'm surprised you didn't have anything to add to this - would you second that non-matching driver tubes are OK?
  
 PS- thanks I may PM you later after I get my head wrapped around this better


----------



## gibosi

decentlevi said:


> Gibosi I'm surprised you didn't have anything to add to this - would you second that non-matching driver tubes are OK?
> 
> PS- thanks I may PM you later after I get my head wrapped around this better


 
  
 It won't hurt a thing to mix and match tubes in this way. Absolutely not a problem. And in fact, mismatched pairs often sound quite good! lol 
  
 However, for example, I have a British made Tungsram CV1988 (6SN7GT) on its way to me. Yes, if I had two drivers, I could pair it with another tube, but it would be very difficult to assess the sound signature and characteristics of this tube....


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> But... this is the Elise thread, not the Glenn thread, so if you have more questions, let's move this to PM.
> 
> Cheers




FWIW, I like reading about a Glenn. The Glenn thread sure has a lot of good food in it, though.


----------



## UntilThen

I like the discussions we're having here. Anything regarding tubes, tube amps ultimately leads back to Elise in this thread. I too visit the Glenn thread. The 6AS7G thread where you learn what power tubes to get and what not to get.
  
 I'm starting to be like G now...a tube roller and collector.
  
 By the way, can we get more impressions from Elise owners. Anyone just received their Elise? Suup? JazzVinyl?


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Is Tung Sol 6AS7G same as Chatham 6AS7G in terms of build and sonic qualities?
> 
> This ^


 
  
 Hi UT. I myself am not too sure if you do in fact have the 'magical' Chatham or Tung Sol/Chatham tube.
  
 From the photo, I can't see the required COPPER grid posts...if there is no copper-coloured post running the full length of the plates, I think I'm right in saying it would be the standard RCA type tube. Please look closely and let us know, so it can be confirmed...I really do hope you have been extremely lucky!
  


untilthen said:


> Thanks Shaffer. I just bought a pair. Can't understand why Chatham are much more expensive than Tung Sol for 6AS7G on eBay. I'm all ready for Elise.


 
  
 As per the above, that is precisely why the _true_ Chatham or Tung Sol/Chatham is much more expensive!


gibosi said:


> I am a tube roller and collector, so one driver is the best configuration for me. I often stumble across good deals on single tubes and I can roll them immediately. I would *find it frustrating to have to wait until I can find a decently matched pair, and worse, in some cases, I simply can't afford a decently matched pair. So for me, an amp requiring two drivers is not optimal, and in fact, harder and more expensive to outfit.*
> 
> In terms of a regulator, Glenn provided me with one to get started. But even so, 3DG4 and 5AW4s are cheap, typically less than $10. I am currently using a GZ32 and they can often be picked up for less than $50. You need only one and maybe a second for backup and you are done.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Sorry g, but for once I have to disagree totally with your statement...*with regard to the Elise*.
  
 I have used a good number of drivers that have been bought separately and the results have been without fault. This is where I personally believe TWO are in fact _better_, as with just your ONE you DO need a tube with well-matched triodes. Ours in the Elise being configured _in series_ does, I should think, make for greater leeway...unless I'm very mistaken. Whatever, the amp certainly does seem to be able to cope well with tube variations...so long as they're not TOO far apart, lol!
  
 So my advice to fellow Elise owners would be to NOT pay way over the odds for 'perfectly' - not gibosi's words) or 'near perfectly' matched pairs...just make sure they aren't drastically different.
  
 ps.   Thanks Glenn for putting UT right re the C3g...


----------



## Suuup

Haven't received anything yet. They stopped making the Elise, as they were missing the Tungsol tubes. Mine should be ready this week though. 

I bought Nephilims matched pair of Tungsol 6SN7, which Lukasz is missing.


----------



## UntilThen

Well this 'Chatham' clearly does not have the copper rod too and this is the expensive tube on eBay now. 
 In any case I bought a Tung Sol and not a Chatham so that's ok. I've examine the Tung Sol and it does not look like the RCAs which I have 5 tubes with me. RCA has the metal shield below the bottom mica.


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> Well this 'Chatham' clearly does not have the copper rod too and this is the expensive tube on eBay now.
> In any case I bought a Tung Sol and not a Chatham so that's ok. I've examine the Tung Sol and it does not look like the RCAs which I have 5 tubes with me. RCA has the metal shield below the bottom mica.


 
  
 Often the photos on eBay are not all that good. From this photo it is very difficult to see if it has copper grid posts. However, from what I can see, plus the box, I would say that there is a better than 90% chance that this is a real Chatham. And in the photo of the Tung-Sol above it is difficult to see if it has copper grid posts, the lighting is poor. But again, from what I can see, especially the plates, I would say that there is a better than 90% chance it is a real Chatham as well. Let us know when it arrives....


----------



## whirlwind

My Chathams look like this
  

  
  
 I have a few power tubes bought.....just waiting for my amp so I can check out how they sound.
  

  
  

  
  

  
  
 It should be lots of fun for sure.


----------



## gibosi

whirlwind said:


> I have a few power tubes bought.....just waiting for my amp so I can check out how they sound.
> 
> It should be lots of fun for sure.


 
  
 It won't be long now! 
  
 Whirlwind will soon take delivery of a Glenn OTL with the same upgrades I have, that is, C3g sockets, a 6/12/25 switch and a 5998 switch, plus a better transformer, a better attenuator and the ability to use both balanced and unbalanced headphone cables:
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/600110/2359glenn-studio/11775#post_11878678


----------



## Shaffer

I'll tell ya, a 6BL7 amp really appeals to me. It's just such a great sounding tube. I'm going to try and make it my next amp. I think the only upgrade I'd want is a 6/12 switch.

Really, what I'd like is a custom switch box - 2 inputs and a minimum of 6 outputs. I have a Niles on the way, but it's not a permanent solution.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> http://www.head-fi.org/t/600110/2359glenn-studio/11775#post_11878678


 
 Serious amps for serious hobbyists until the bread rolls appears.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I have a few power tubes bought.....just waiting for my amp so I can check out how they sound.
> ...


 
 Yeah, I know it will be very soon and i am very ready to try it out....everytime I see a pic of your amp, my mouth waters


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> I just got a cheap IR thermometer and checked the trafo casing after 4h: 38degC with the ECC31. Should be OK.
> 
> Speaking of hum... I'm eagerly awaiting the new electricity meter which hopefully eliminates the background hum in 011.
> 
> Listening to https://www.berliner-philharmoniker-recordings.com/simon-rattle-schumanns-symphonien.html in 192/24 - the ECC31ed double bass is pure joy for my right ear


 
  
 Hi n...I really hope also that meter does the trick - my tubes are death itself when there's a sudden stop to ear-shattering bliss, lol!!


renderman said:


> Oh you can bet your bottom dollar I will!  Very first impressions are definetly more subbass and lower bass. But not reduced or laid back treble at all. In fact the highs are crisp and clear. Impressed so far


 
  
 Well R...a late night return to these after testing some C3g adapters has treated me to another of those leaps I've mentioned before, and which has confirmed beyond any doubt several factors...
 1. Your statement re the treble is spot on. Whereas I previously thought it didn't quite have the C3g's extension, I must now revise my finding. These incredible tubes are now resolving the higher frequencies to the same amazing degree as the bass and mids. I suspect this is due to the 'finessing' of that VERY extended bass, which is allowing more treble detail to come through.
  
 2. This is also helping to bring more of the C3g's air, crispness and clarity, but with added smoothness. I am hearing detail that I haven't before, and its positioning in 3D space is now even more remarkable. And the sound engineer's mastery of L/R panning in Mike Oldfield's 'Elements' CD induces a truly hypnotic state (when done well, this is indeed a powerful tool in establishing trance). The entire soundstage is like I have never experienced before... mind-boggling!
  
 3. With one tube a later brown-based ECC31, and the other an early NR73/CV1285, this reinforces my previous comments re using 2 separately purchased tubes. They are performing in PERFECT BALANCE!
  
 And so I go to my bed in total awe... once again...


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Well R...a late night return to these after testing some C3g adapters has treated me to another of those leaps I've mentioned before, and which has confirmed beyond any doubt several factors...
> 1. Your statement re the treble is spot on. Whereas I previously thought it didn't quite have the C3g's extension, I must now revise my finding. These incredible tubes are now resolving the higher frequencies to the same amazing degree as the bass and mids. I suspect this is due to the 'finessing' of that VERY extended bass, which is allowing more treble detail to come through.
> 
> 2. This is also helping to bring more of the C3g's air, crispness and clarity, but with added smoothness. I am hearing detail that I haven't before, and its positioning in 3D space is now even more remarkable. And the sound engineer's mastery of L/R panning in Mike Oldfield's 'Elements' CD induces a truly hypnotic state (when done well, this is indeed a powerful tool in establishing trance). The entire soundstage is like I have never experienced before... mind-boggling!
> ...



Thanks for these impressions H1! Very nice to read.

I like what i'm hearing from the ECC31 so far. However, I feel I should allow them some more burn-in time, the hum seems to be slowly dissolving.

These have also made me rediscover the T1s. The articulated bass and smooth treble make them that much more enjoyable to me. The bass feels like it surrounds you and puts you into the middle of the sound. The treble provides a huge airy soundstage. I'm in awe..

Oldfield's Elements is another example of a very well recorded and engineered album. I can certainly understand it can be hypnotic and pulling you into a trance like state!

I'm glad all your efforts have resulted in such enjoyment, you certainly deserve it.

Keep listening and enjoy the music!


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> Thanks for these impressions H1! Very nice to read.
> 
> I like what i'm hearing from the ECC31 so far. However, I feel I should allow them some more burn-in time, the hum seems to be slowly dissolving.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thx R..."listening and enjoying" is a very apt description of where I'm now at. These ECC31s have brought me to a stage where I don't need (thank goodness!) to work hard at analysing/searching the sound entering my ears...I simply feel EVERYTHING is 'there' and so right (for me) that I can just let myself sink into the music - in a way I have never fully experienced before... even more so than with my beloved C3g'S's. Something is happening that goes beyond the usual assessment of the amp's performance - and I just LOVE it, lol!
  
 At this point, I must say that without having appreciated and enjoyed the fabulous C3g, I don't think I would ever have fully grasped the magical qualities of the ECC31. This is the plus side of journeying through different tubes, and discovering what each can bring (or not!!) to the table. And so I'm sure this is almost a vital necessity in achieving TRUE appreciation...in _any_ area of life, of course, not just headphone amps!!
  
 But even if the C3g is not a springboard to other tubes for people, I still believe it to be an end-game tube for many...and certainly one of the best value-for-money top end tubes out there.
  
 So I wish you too - and everyone else out there - continued enjoyment in your listening...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 ps.  Yes indeed, R...these + Elise do wonders for the T1s, to be sure!


----------



## gibosi

For those who might be close to Australia (shipping is over $25 USD to the US), a pair of GEC 6AS7:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Paired-GEC-6AS7G-A1834-Tube-labelled-MWT-Used-Brown-Round-base-NO-BOX-/201423259277
  
 For sure, at about $440 USD for the pair, these are no bargain, but the price isn't outrageous either.


----------



## UntilThen

Holy mackerels this is the same seller that sold me the Mullard CV2984 and I just bought a pair of Tung Sol 5998 yesterday !!!
  
*GEC  6AS7G / A1834 (labelled MWT) ​*...is this a different designation?


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> Holy mackerels this is the same seller that sold me the Mullard CV2984 and I just bought a pair of Tung Sol 5998 yesterday !!!
> 
> *GEC  6AS7G / A1834 (labelled MWT) ​*...is this a different designation?


 
  
 Yes. You will see these tubes with Marconi (and MWT = Marconi Wireless Telegraph), Osram and GEC labeling. They were all made in the same factory.
  
 Edit: Oh, and yes again, A1834 = 6AS7GT = CV2523


----------



## UntilThen

Interesting those labelling. The Osram and GEC labelling looks nicer. Think I'll pass on this need to sample the Mullard and 5998 first. Quite a few sellers from Australia. There's another person who sells some very nice tubes occasionally and he makes tube amps as well.
  
 Thanks G. I need to know those alternate numbers used.


----------



## mordy

Hi,
  
 Let's walk downstairs, into the Bargain Basement, not to the Price Stratosphere Attic with $600 {each!) Western Electric 421A (nee Tung Sol 5998, which is only $100 each).
  
 I mean tubes that can be found for $10 or less each, or for a pair if u r lucky. Here is a an example that sounds very good, is plentiful, and cheap. However, it lacks bragging rights, and nobody is going to say "Wow! U got them Unobtanium tubes???!
  
  




  
 What we got here are plain Jane GE 6080 tubes. These sound sweet and punchy in my Elise with C3g drivers. They don't have the excruciating detail of the Chatham 6AS7G or Tung Sol 5998, but are very musical and satisfying. And dare I say it, they are less fatiguing because they don't bring to ur attention every little cough and micro detail in the recording.
  
 Over on the 6AS7 thread there are some people that like this tube as well. But you will not know if u got a rare 1950's tube (if there is such a thing) instead of from the 1970's because so far I couldn't find anybody who could explain the GE dot code to me. OK - I see that this pair, currently for sale on Ebay for $16.99, incl. shipping, has 60's dates printed on the bases - my tubes only have the pesky undecipherable dots.
  
 Look, some of the best things are (almost) free, like air and water, and GE 6080 tubes LOL
  
 I am congratulating myself on these very enjoyable tubes......


----------



## UntilThen

How about these $11 each new from Parts Express. I love them too they sound good to me. Besides GE is the 1st coy I work in so yeah special


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi,
> 
> Let's walk downstairs, into the Bargain Basement, not to the Price Stratosphere Attic with $600 {each!) Western Electric 421A (nee Tung Sol 5998, which is only $100 each).
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yeah mordy....despite my own rantings, great enjoyment sure can be had without having to spend a (mini) fortune...and findings like your own are very welcome indeed.
  
 Hopefully other Elise owners will also discover - and share! - their own value-for-money tubes...while also saving up for a Christmas special treat perhaps, lol?!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Keep those eagle eyes open, m...


----------



## mordy

HI UT,
  
 The pair that you have is a GE 6AS7GA - not GE 6080. I have a pair of GE 6AS7GA as well, and even though they sound nice, I find them too neutral and ss sounding; the GE 6080 tubes are much more engaging IMHO.
  
 I wonder if other companies manufactured 6AS7GA or only GE. There are Sylvania 6AS7GA tubes available, but I don't know if they are GE rebrands.
  
 The next question: What is the difference between a 6080 and a 6AS7GA? They both have the same shape glass, and electrically are almost identical.
  
 You may want to try the GE 6080....


----------



## UntilThen

Yes I know they are GE 6AS7GA.
  
 I do have 2 6080 HP and Dumont which I pick up cheap and very new. Been tube rolling a bit with my Darkvoice.


----------



## SonicTrance

That HP branded one is actually Tung-Sol made. Never heard one myself but suppose to sound good


----------



## UntilThen

Interesting I thought HP are GE made.


----------



## SonicTrance

You can tell by the date code "322" = Tung-Sol


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> By the way, can we get more impressions from Elise owners. Anyone just received their Elise? Suup? JazzVinyl?




I have not received my amp, nor have I received confirmation that it is "in test" or "shipped". 

I did get two more emails from Lukasz who asked if he could skip sending drivers and refund me $40.00 in lieu of the Tung-Sol drivers as he cannot seem to get examples that pass muster. 

He did offer me the Elektro-Harmonix Gold drivers as well. I passed on those, as I would rather just use vintage 6sn7's.

In the end, I asked for the amp to be sent driverless and I will try a couple of pairs of 1960's 6sn7's that I have on hand. 
I am also "ready" with a pair of C3gS's with adapters. Plus I have a nice looking pair of 6080 powers ready to try as well.

I am in week 12 since I paid in full. Was told the wait was approx 6 weeks. 

I am patiently, awaiting my amp.

--JV--


----------



## UntilThen

JV at this rate I won't get my amp till after Christmas....I hope not ! 

Yes I'm going to tell Lukasz I'll go driverless too. I think I have about 5 sets of power and drive tubes ready for Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

I have read reviews that those EH are as good as the Tung Sols so maybe I'll grab those from Lukasz. No harm in expanding the collection.

Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 Gold are selling for $43.95 each at www.thetubestore.com


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> I have read reviews that those EH are as good as the Tung Sols so maybe I'll grab those from Lukasz. No harm in expanding the collection.
> 
> Electro-Harmonix 6SN7 Gold are selling for $43.95 each at www.thetubestore.com




Sounds good UT...will be interested in what you think of them. Lukasz said he liked them. 

I want a pair of the 1952 Sylvania 6SN7 "Bad-boys" so often spoken of in the 6SN7 thread. 
Anyone here have these?


----------



## Shaffer

It's tough being a small manufacture suddenly faced with increased demand. I mentioned earlier in the thread how I waited over 8 months for a pair of speakers. Some folks waited almost a _year _for an Audible Illusions preamp. The wait for the humble Little Dot mkIII rose to 4+ months after a very favorable review in Stereophile. Yea, it sucks. No question. Good thing the product is worth it.


----------



## UntilThen

JV are you just wanting to tube roll besides your C3g. Pretty much what I will do. I think it's fun to compare for yourself. Try those Sylvania bad boys and let us know.
  
 I have these to try on Elise.
  

C3g
RCA JAN 6SN7GT smoke glass VT231
7N7 Raytheon 1957 with adapters
6N23P Russian Rocket logo with adapters
Sylvania GB 6SN7WGT and Tung Sol 6SNGT mouse ears (mix and match lol)


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> JV are you just wanting to tube roll besides your C3g. Pretty much what I will do. I think it's fun to compare for yourself. Try those Sylvania bad boys and let us know.
> 
> I have these to try on Elise.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello UT...
  
 I am more of a "settle in" kind of guy.  I will probably try some different things, then settle in to the set that I think makes my headphones shine the best and stay there.
  
 I don't have the 1952 Bad Boys....but am looking for some.  I do have a set of 1960's Sylvania's that I will try.  Will try some JAN GE 6080's and have another set of 1960's Sylvania re-labels that I plan to try, as well as the C3gS's (with adaptors).
  
 Your set and plan for rolling sounds great!!  Know you will accomplish nirvana somewhere along your path.  The RCA smoke glass, I think,  is very promising, indeed,.
  
 Have fun!!!
  
 --JV--


----------



## MIKELAP

Some of you tried the ecc31 tubes but did anybody try the 6N7's if so worth buying


----------



## JazzVinyl

mikelap said:


> Some of you tried the ecc31 tubes but did anybody try the 6N7's if so worth buying


 
  
 I have some ancient French made 6n7g'S coming from Italy...
 They also need adaptors en-route from China (on a slow boat).
  
 So, one day, when the Elise arrives and the above two items show up, I can tell you what I think.
  
 I have read on some sites that the 6n7's are "not associated with quality audio circuits".
  
 So, we will see what happens.


----------



## JazzVinyl

mikelap said:


> Some of you tried the ecc31 tubes but did anybody try the 6N7's if so worth buying


 
  
http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aag0054.htm
  
 According to the site above, 6N7G's may not be suitable as drivers, at all...
  
 What do others think?


----------



## gibosi

Plus I am fairly sure the FDD20 that H1 and I are getting is simply a 6N7 with a different heater (13V) and a different base (P8A)....


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aag0054.htm
> 
> According to the site above, 6N7G's may not be suitable as drivers, at all...
> 
> What do others think?


 
  
 If you read the description for an ECC31 at the same site, you might come to the conclusion that the ECC31 isn't suitable for use as a driver either. We really just don't know until someone tries them.
  
 http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aac0026.htm


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> If you read the description for an ECC31 at the same site, you might come to the conclusion that the ECC31 isn't suitable for use as a driver either. We really just don't know until someone tries them.
> 
> http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aac0026.htm


 
  
 Right, I did see that it said the 6N7G and ECC31 were "equivalent" tubes.
  
 Are you guys going to heat the FDD20's with an external heater supply?
  
 And....it also says in the GSN7 Reference thread that the ECC31:
  
 ---
*ECC31, 32, 33, 34* - Popular MISconception: these are *NOT* equivalent to 6SN7. Especially the ECC32/CV181 - close, but the 50% higher current draw will probably fry some transformers. Grid voltage, gain and transconductance are all different for these tubes. Ask your amp manufacturer first before substituting these in.
 ---
  
 So I was a little surprised Elise owners jumped on this tube as a GSN7 substitute...
  
 Glad it worked out, but was surprised.
  
 Maybe there is hope for my 6N7Gs, too.
  
 .


----------



## mordy

There is a myth that bumble bees cannot fly because given the size of the wings and the weight etc it is impossible for it to fly; something that is dis proven by any sensible person who can plainly see that bumble bees do fly.
  
 "One needs to understand there can be quite a difference between a real-life concept and a mathematical model of it:"
  
 Don't believe those statements on those sheets- if it works, it works. The C3g tubes are not supposed to be suitable for the Elise, but they work exceptionally well.....


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Right, I did see that it said the 6N7G and ECC31 were "equivalent" tubes.
> 
> Are you guys going to heat the FDD20's with an external heater supply?
> 
> ...


 
  
 I am quite sure that H1 will use an external power supply. However, my amp can provide 12.6 volts and that is well within spec (13 volts +/- 10%).
  
 The reason for this warning in the 6SN7 thread is that not all amps can provide 0.9 amps to power the heaters on the ECC31/32. However, we know (private communication between H1 and Feliks Audio) that the Elise can provide up to 1.0 amps. And my amp can easily handle a 2.5 amp 6AS7 in the driver socket if I wanted. lol


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> There is a myth that bumble bees cannot fly because given the size of the wings and the weight etc it is impossible for it to fly; something that is dis proven by any sensible person who can plainly see that bumble bees do fly.
> 
> "One needs to understand there can be quite a difference between a real-life concept and a mathematical model of it:"
> 
> Don't believe those statements on those sheets- if it works, it works. The C3g tubes are not supposed to be suitable for the Elise, but they work exceptionally well.....


 
  
 Hear ya Mordy!
  
 The old "Bumble Bees can't fly" story...has in interesting history"
  
http://www.snopes.com/science/bumblebees.asp
  
 I forgot what the "problem" with the C3g was supposed to be with the Elise?
  
 .


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> I forgot what the "problem" with the C3g was supposed to be with the Elise?
> .


 
  
 In a nutshell.... The Elise was designed to use two double triodes. However, the C3g is a single pentode. Completely very different tubes...


----------



## MIKELAP

jazzvinyl said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Some of you tried the ecc31 tubes but did anybody try the 6N7's if so worth buying
> ...


 

 Mine are on the same slowboat from China maybe they got acquainted lol ,might get them this week though


----------



## JazzVinyl

Here is a site that praises the 6N7 tubes in audio circuits:
  
http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2011/02/tube-of-month-6n7.html
  
  
  
 --JV--


----------



## Shaffer

Is a 6N7 a direct substitute for a 6SN7?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Is a 6N7 a direct substitute for a 6SN7?


 
  
 Ordinarily not. It has a common cathode, as opposed to two separate cathodes, and the heaters pull 0.8 amps. But electrically, it is very similar to the ECC31, and it can be used in the Elise with the ECC31 adapter.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> Ordinarily not. It has a common cathode, as opposed to two separate cathodes, and the heaters pull 0.8 amps. But electrically, it is very similar to the ECC31, and it can be used in the Elise with the ECC31 adapter.




Let's hope the 6N7's turn out to be the bargain of the century 

Also...folks let's say for a second you could NOT swap any other tube for a 6SN7...what would be you number one absolute favorite 6SN7? 



--JV--


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> Let's hope the 6N7's turn out to be the bargain of the century
> 
> Also..*.folks let's say for a second you could NOT swap any other tube for a 6SN7...what would be you number one absolute favorite 6SN7?
> *
> ...




CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT. 

This being said, I'd rather run a 7N7 or a 7AF7 as a semi-permanent solution.


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Also...folks let's say for a second you could NOT swap any other tube for a 6SN7...what would be you number one absolute favorite 6SN7?


 
  
 Notice my avatar: 1940's Sylvania 6SN7W


----------



## JazzVinyl

mikelap said:


> Mine are on the same slowboat from China maybe they got acquainted lol ,might get them this week though


 

 Hello Mike...according to my tracking number, my adaptor is in Los Angeles. 
  
 So it will get here prior to the Elise, it looks like!
  
 --JV--


----------



## aqsw

What's the wait time on an Elise from date of order?


----------



## UntilThen

6 weeks but best to check with Feliks Audio


----------



## Suuup

I'd expect about 2 months.


----------



## aqsw

Thanks Guys


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> I am quite sure that H1 will use an external power supply. However, my amp can provide 12.6 volts and that is well within spec (13 volts +/- 10%).
> 
> The reason for this warning in the 6SN7 thread is that not all amps can provide 0.9 amps to power the heaters on the ECC31/32. However, we know (private communication between H1 and Feliks Audio) that the Elise can provide up to 1.0 amps. And my amp can easily handle a 2.5 amp 6AS7 in the driver socket if I wanted. lol


 
 Hi g.
  
 They finally arrived today...and they're one gorgeous looking tube - especially for an old 'un, lol! And I cannot believe how much smaller they are than the Mullard ECC31. And luckily, that awful silver coating comes off easily - most succumbs to a rough, dry towel...the last spots to a damp nylon scouring pad (for non-stick pans...don't wanna scratch that lovely glass!).
  

  

  

  

  

  
 pssst.   what a funny bottom!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  
 This really took me by surprise - I was expecting something much _bigger_!
  
 And yes, I shall have to use an external power supply...but this time instead of a cumbersome transformer/voltage regulator PS, I will try a much neater 12V laptop PS. You mentioned 13V +or-10%, so hopefully I should be OK (I noticed an article on the web re its use in an old radio (transmitter/receiver?) of some sort, and they stated 12V...).
  
 Am really looking forward to seeing what these beauties deliver...once I've sussed out the best line of attack for the adapters!!
  


jazzvinyl said:


> Here is a site that praises the 6N7 tubes in audio circuits:
> 
> http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2011/02/tube-of-month-6n7.html
> 
> ...


 
  
 A really interesting read, JV...looks like my (attempt at! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) comforting words a while back may not have been wishful thinking after all...it would indeed be great if these 6N7s turn out to be winners - I certainly hope so!


----------



## aqsw

This unit looks perfect to pair with my Hegel HD12,  Liquid Carbon, and Ether set-up when I want the tube sound. It looks as if it was made for that setup. Same size as the DAC.


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> They finally arrived today...and they're one gorgeous looking tube - especially for an old 'un, lol! And I cannot believe how much smaller they are than the Mullard ECC31. And luckily, that awful silver coating comes off easily - most succumbs to a rough, dry towel...the last spots to a damp nylon scouring pad (for non-stick pans...don't wanna scratch that lovely glass!).


 
  
 Coincidentally, mine arrived today as well. And if we had any doubts that these rebranded RVC were actually manufactured by Philips Italy, to my mind, that bluish glass goes a long way to dispels it.
  
 I haven't removed the silver coating... I don't know if I will... or not.... But I am pleased to report that mine lights up and plays on 12.6 volts. 
  
 And if anyone in EliseLand wants to run these, adapters are available on eBay. I bought this one:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/201418253970
  
 However, I emphasize, it will be necessary to find a way to provide it with 0.35 amps at 13 volts +/- 10%.


----------



## 2359glenn

gibosi said:


> hypnos1 said:
> 
> 
> > They finally arrived today...and they're one gorgeous looking tube - especially for an old 'un, lol! And I cannot believe how much smaller they are than the Mullard ECC31. And luckily, that awful silver coating comes off easily - most succumbs to a rough, dry towel...the last spots to a damp nylon scouring pad (for non-stick pans...don't wanna scratch that lovely glass!).
> ...


 

 gibosi how does it sound????
  
 12.6 is close enough to 13 will run fine.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Coincidentally, mine arrived today as well. And if we had any doubts that these rebranded RVC were actually manufactured by Philips Italy, to my mind, that bluish glass goes a long way to dispels it.
> 
> I haven't removed the silver coating... I don't know if I will... or not.... But I am pleased to report that mine lights up and plays on 12.6 volts.
> 
> ...


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


>


 
  
 That is one colorful tube! Lovely photos as well.


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Hi g.
> 
> They finally arrived today...and they're one gorgeous looking tube - especially for an old 'un, lol! And I cannot believe how much smaller they are than the Mullard ECC31. And luckily, that awful silver coating comes off easily - most succumbs to a rough, dry towel...the last spots to a damp nylon scouring pad (for non-stick pans...don't wanna scratch that lovely glass!).


 
 Wow very interesting looking tube you've got there H! I love the blue hue on it, looks very mysterious. Let's hope it sounds as good as it looks.


----------



## Oskari

hypnos1 said:


> And yes, I shall have to use an external power supply...but this time instead of a cumbersome transformer/voltage regulator PS, I will try a much neater 12V laptop PS. You mentioned 13V +or-10%, so hopefully I should be OK (I noticed an article on the web re its use in an old radio (transmitter/receiver?) of some sort, and they stated 12V...).


 
  


gibosi said:


> I am pleased to report that mine lights up and plays on 12.6 volts.
> 
> ...
> 
> However, I emphasize, it will be necessary to find a way to provide it with 0.35 amps at 13 volts +/- 10%.


 
  


2359glenn said:


> 12.6 is close enough to 13 will run fine.


 
  
 In the Philips/Mullard/Euro nomenclature, F was for 12 volt (whether we call that 12, 12.6 or 13 V doesn't really matter) car battery tubes. (Very few F types exist, though!) They should be perfectly happy with anything between 12 V and 13 V.


----------



## agnostic1er

I feel missing comparisons with other tube-amps of same price/technology in this thread becoming very tube rolling oriented... Am I alone?


----------



## gibosi

OK!  lol. I decided to remove the silver coating! However, rather than use a rough towel or a pot scrubber, I used an X-ACTO knife in the same way as I would use a razor blade to remove paint from windows. Quick and easy. However, as good as this tube looks in the light, unfortunately, it doesn't put on much of a light show... about the same as the ECC31.
  
 How does it sound? I have only had it running for only a couple of hours (one with silver paint and one without) and I have been busy doing other things. However, I am not hearing anything bad. It's quiet. The tonal balance -- bass midrange and treble -- seems correct. But of course, it is way too soon to say more than this....


----------



## whirlwind

^  That is one crazy looking adapter ^


----------



## UntilThen

I'm excited seeing all this. A lot of ground breaking on tube rolling here. Great work H1 and G. Now I can see how handy your Glenn amp is with just an adapter from eBay.


----------



## hypnos1

oskari said:


> That is one colorful tube! Lovely photos as well.


 
  
 Thanks O...the first tube I have ever thought 'sexy', lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  (Edit - I lie...forgot the GEC CV2523!!)...and thanks for confirmation that 12V should do the trick.
  


renderman said:


> Wow very interesting looking tube you've got there H! I love the blue hue on it, looks very mysterious. Let's hope it sounds as good as it looks.


 
 Yea, R....that blue definitely adds a certain 'je ne sais quoi'!!  But of course she's got to _sound_ sexy too...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


gibosi said:


> OK!  lol. I decided to remove the silver coating! However, rather than use a rough towel or a pot scrubber, I used an X-ACTO knife in the same way as I would use a razor blade to remove paint from windows. Quick and easy. However, as good as this tube looks in the light, unfortunately, it doesn't put on much of a light show... about the same as the ECC31.
> 
> How does it sound? I have only had it running for only a couple of hours (one with silver paint and one without) and I have been busy doing other things. However, I am not hearing anything bad. It's quiet. The tonal balance -- bass midrange and treble -- seems correct. But of course, it is way too soon to say more than this....


 
  
 Now doesn't that look much better, g? And let's face it, in the flesh she doesn't _need_ a glow IMHO!...(but she does cry out for a delicate companion...will do my best, lol!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## hypnos1

agnostic1er said:


> I feel missing comparisons with other tube-amps of same price/technology in this thread becoming very tube rolling oriented... Am I alone?


 
  
 I hear you, a 1er....unfortunately, as yet there aren't many Elise owners with other amps to compare...the main contributors have already made their own comparisons in previous posts, or else full burn-in time isn't yet reached, preventing proper assessment.
 The delays in production have also slowed things down of course...there should be a good few more such comparisons coming in the (hopefully!) not-too-distant future.
  
 In the meantime, what better way to fill the void than the ever popular foray into tube land?...I do hope you understand this fetish - (it took me a VERY long time to fully grasp it, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







).


----------



## Shaffer

agnostic1er said:


> I feel missing comparisons with other tube-amps of same price/technology in this thread becoming very tube rolling oriented... Am I alone?




I plan on writing a WA6 comparative review, as soon as I figure out what it really sounds like. It'll take at least a month. Perhaps longer, as the thing runs unfamiliar tubes. Then, combine it with the DV336SE piece, write an intro, and post it in the Elise review section next to 004's article.

Ya wanna know how the Elise sounds compared to the Krell that drives my main system? The Elise comes across as more alive, more transparent - especially on top and the upper-mids - and extends as deeply, albeit with less authority. It's more textured, more organic and natural in its presentation, and I can lift it easily by myself. Obviously the Elise won't drive my speakers, as they need the current of a ginormous amp to get them moving, but I wish it could. I firmly believe the Elise is priced too low for its performance envelope. 

As H1 mentioned, we've all blown our respective wads by now, so if the newer folks have something to contribute, don't be shy.


----------



## MIKELAP

shaffer said:


> agnostic1er said:
> 
> 
> > I feel missing comparisons with other tube-amps of same price/technology in this thread becoming very tube rolling oriented... Am I alone?
> ...


 
 A review of the WA6 and Elise would be nice looking forward to it


----------



## JazzVinyl

I was surprised to see my ECC31 to 6SN7 adaptors in the mail yesterday, after seeing they were in Los Angeles yesterday!  And a nice note from the seller inside saying they were striving to please, and hoped to receive positive feedback on ebay (a very different experience from my previous purchased of adaptors from an ebay seller who was located in China).
  
 They appears to be well made,  Should last forever,
  
  
 Tomorrow is the start of Week 12:
 Still no email from Lukasz that my Elise is 'in test' or has been shipped


----------



## 2359glenn

> And yes, I shall have to use an external power supply...but this time instead of a cumbersome transformer/voltage regulator PS, I will try a much neater 12V laptop PS. You mentioned 13V +or-10%, so hopefully I should be OK (I noticed an article on the web re its use in an old radio (transmitter/receiver?) of some sort, and they stated 12V...).
> 
> Am really looking forward to seeing what these beauties deliver...once I've sussed out the best line of attack for the adapters!!


 
 H1
  
 You will end up using the cumbersome transformer voltage regulator power supply.
 A switched computer PS makes to much noise. I have tried this using one to run 13D1s in a Woo WA5 the noise was terrible.
 When I went to the transformer type supply no more noise and the 25 volt 13D1s worked fine.
 Unless you have one that makes little noise?


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> Tomorrow is the start of Week 12:
> Still no email from Lukasz that my Elise is 'in test' or has been shipped


 
 I believe they are working on it. I email Lukasz and got a prompt reply. Send him an email to enquire.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> I believe they are working on it. I email Lukasz and got a prompt reply. Send him an email to enquire.


 
  
 Yes, I am sure they are working on them.  I have heard from him three times in the last two weeks. 
 Just venting some impatience/frustration, I guess. 
  
 Patience...Patience...Patience...


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> I plan on writing a WA6 comparative review, as soon as I figure out what it really sounds like. It'll take at least a month. Perhaps longer, as the thing runs unfamiliar tubes. Then, combine it with the DV336SE piece, write an intro, and post it in the Elise review section next to 004's article.
> 
> Ya wanna know how the Elise sounds compared to the Krell that drives my main system? The Elise comes across as more alive, more transparent - especially on top and the upper-mids *- and extends as deeply, albeit with less authority*. It's more textured, more organic and natural in its presentation, and I can lift it easily by myself. Obviously the Elise won't drive my speakers, as they need the current of a ginormous amp to get them moving, but I wish it could. I firmly believe the Elise is priced too low for its performance envelope.
> 
> As H1 mentioned, we've all blown our respective wads by now, so if the newer folks have something to contribute, don't be shy.


 
  
 Hi 007...that's gonna be one mightily interesting - and useful - comparison....can't wait!
  
 Re the bass, profuse apologies for the repetition, but with the ECC31s in place, the Elise is another animal entirely - the bass especially is truly awesome...in ALL aspects. The difference to any other tube I have ever heard - OR pretty good SS equipment - is still having me NOT believe it lol!...(just ask gibosi, Renderman and nephilim...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Now you can get back to your marathon (amp) run!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


2359glenn said:


> H1
> 
> You will end up using the cumbersome transformer voltage regulator power supply.
> A switched computer PS makes to much noise. I have tried this using one to run 13D1s in a Woo WA5 the noise was terrible.
> ...


 
 Hi Glenn.
  
 I'm sincerely hoping I won't have to go cumbersome - behind my equipment rack is already a jungle!
  
 My laptop slab did the job a treat with the LD - didn't really need the mammoth actually. No noise whatsoever...so I'm hoping I get lucky once again...(everything crossed!).
  


jazzvinyl said:


> Yes, I am sure they are working on them.  I have heard from him three times in the last two weeks.
> Just venting some impatience/frustration, I guess.
> 
> Patience...Patience...Patience...


 
  
 .....and yet _more_ patience, my good friend...I feel your pain also!!
  
 So...do you have some ECC31s already then? (My memory is the pits these days, lol!)...boy, no wonder you're eager to get your hands on her, after all that's been said about these AND the C3gs (of which you know the latter, anyway...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Hang in there...you can do it!!


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> .....and yet _more_ patience, my good friend...I feel your pain also!!
> So...do you have some ECC31s already then? (My memory is the pits these days, lol!)...boy, no wonder you're eager to get your hands on her, after all that's been said about these AND the C3gs (of which you know the latter, anyway...
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello Hypnos1 -
  
 I do _not_ have a pair of ECC31's waiting.  I have the mysterious 6N7G's coming from Italy (supposed to be ECC31 equiv).
 And as you know, I do have the C3gS's ready to go.
  
 I also have:
 1960's Sylvania 6SN7GTB's ready to try, and a pair of 1950's re-branded Sylvania's ready to try.
  
 And a pair of GE 6080 JAN's ready to try 
  
 I did some experiments with the LD MK IV and 6HM5 vs C3gS's last night.  I found that the C3gS's gave a gigantic boost to sound stage in width and depth.
  
 6HM5's sound really good,  and are not lacking in any area of the frequency range, but sound "closed in" compared to the C3gS's.
  
 The drums having the largest difference in the two tubes in the way they sound.  Snare drum via C3gS sounds way more "real" than it does in the 6HM5.
  
 Also noted that the C3gS's play a game of 'hide and seek' with some frequencies that I think adds to the broader sound stage illusion.  Some frequencies are lower in volume in the C3gS's and you have to "listen around the corner" to hear them.
  
 6HM5 processes everything louder, more closed in, and more 'in your face', with a few frequencies almost fatiguing.
  
 I certainly like the C3gS's better in the LD MK IV, even though I am certain it plays games with a few frequencies.
  
 Anxious to see what they do for the Elise....
  
 Cheers...
  
 --JV--


----------



## agnostic1er

shaffer said:


> I plan on writing a WA6 comparative review, as soon as I figure out what it really sounds like. It'll take at least a month. Perhaps longer, as the thing runs unfamiliar tubes. Then, combine it with the DV336SE piece, write an intro, and post it in the Elise review section next to 004's article.
> 
> Ya wanna know how the Elise sounds compared to the Krell that drives my main system? The Elise comes across as more alive, more transparent - especially on top and the upper-mids - and extends as deeply, albeit with less authority. It's more textured, more organic and natural in its presentation, and I can lift it easily by myself. Obviously the Elise won't drive my speakers, as they need the current of a ginormous amp to get them moving, but I wish it could. I firmly believe the Elise is priced too low for its performance envelope.
> 
> As H1 mentioned, we've all blown our respective wads by now, so if the newer folks have something to contribute, don't be shy.


 
 Thanks Shaffer for your impressions vs your Krell and your future ones vs the WA6!


----------



## agnostic1er

hypnos1 said:


> I hear you, a 1er....unfortunately, as yet there aren't many Elise owners with other amps to compare...the main contributors have already made their own comparisons in previous posts, or else full burn-in time isn't yet reached, preventing proper assessment.
> The delays in production have also slowed things down of course...there should be a good few more such comparisons coming in the (hopefully!) not-too-distant future.
> 
> In the meantime, what better way to fill the void than the ever popular foray into tube land?...I do hope you understand this fetish - (it took me a VERY long time to fully grasp it, lol!
> ...


 
 OK, I have to be patient about future comparisons... In the next weeks/months a comparison with some tube-amps from HCFR members will be organized at my home; I will evidently post the results in this thread.


----------



## nephilim

hypnos1 said:


> Re the bass, profuse apologies for the repetition, but with the ECC31s in place, the Elise is another animal entirely - the bass especially is truly awesome...in ALL aspects. The difference to any other tube I have ever heard - OR pretty good SS equipment - is still having me NOT believe it lol!...(just ask gibosi, Renderman and nephilim...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Absolutely! After about 35-40h my initial reservations re the "muted" treble are gone. I will do a final comparison with the C3gS but what I can say already is that the bass is imho perfect - low, juicy, fast and detailed. Wonderful! In the treble department there is nothing I miss at the moment. I had the feeling that the C3gS made it easier to "listen the room", if you understand what I mean. I remember that for some recordings it was so easy to imagine the studio/venue without having to search for it. This aspect and the "air" of the different tubes will be the subject of my comparison.
  
 However, I just purchased another pair of ECC31, albeit not as cheap as the first pair.


----------



## Shaffer

hypnos1 said:


> Hi 007...that's gonna be one mightily interesting - and useful - comparison....can't wait!
> 
> Re the bass, profuse apologies for the repetition, but with the ECC31s in place, the Elise is another animal entirely - the bass especially is truly awesome...in ALL aspects. The difference to any other tube I have ever heard - OR pretty good SS equipment - is still having me NOT believe it lol!...(just ask gibosi, Renderman and nephilim... ).
> 
> Now you can get back to your marathon (amp) run!!  :wink_face:




I have no doubt and would absolutely love a pair. One day. I just spent my monthly budget on WA6 tubes (a big note of thanks to 004; he found a very nice rectifier that I could afford). Hopefully toward the holidays someone can help me find a good, reasonably priced pair of ECC31s. I really want these tubes!


----------



## hypnos1

agnostic1er said:


> OK, I have to be patient about future comparisons... In the next weeks/months a comparison with some tube-amps from HCFR members will be organized at my home; I will evidently post the results in this thread.


 
 Home mini-meets...what a wonderful way to compare different gear - especially with a little something to lubricate the throat's overtime, lol! So more fascinating reports to come...now *I'm* becoming impatient!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


jazzvinyl said:


> Hello Hypnos1 -
> 
> I do _not_ have a pair of ECC31's waiting.  I have the mysterious 6N7G's coming from Italy (supposed to be ECC31 equiv).
> And as you know, I do have the C3gS's ready to go.
> ...


 
 Ah yes of course...the possible bargain of the century! (At least you'll already have the necessary for the real thing, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 And what a perspicacious discovery of the C3g's presentation!... You have actually nailed what had me addicted for so long to that tube, and which only now is being 'rectified' by the ECC31. 'Playing games with a few frequencies' is absolutely spot on - although a lot less in the Elise, compared to the LDMKIV SE.
  
 I now realise the ECC31 - but only after a really long burn-in - puts ALL these frequencies right in their place. This is what I referred to recently as the 'leap' I was treated to - you have solidified just what _precisely_ was happening...the light bulb is fair lighting up the sky! Thanks for the enlightenment, JV...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


nephilim said:


> Absolutely! After about 35-40h my initial reservations re the "muted" treble are gone. I will do a final comparison with the C3gS but what I can say already is that the bass is imho perfect - low, juicy, fast and detailed. Wonderful! In the treble department there is nothing I miss at the moment. I had the feeling that the C3gS made it easier to "listen the room", if you understand what I mean. I remember that for some recordings it was so easy to imagine the studio/venue without having to search for it. This aspect and the "air" of the different tubes will be the subject of my comparison.
> 
> However, I just purchased another pair of ECC31, albeit not as cheap as the first pair.


 
  
 Leading on from what I have just said, the C3g quality you mention is what I felt was missing at first in the ECC31. Again, only now have I found this 'location' ability and "air" to be matching the C3g. But in the 31, the "air" is a bit different to the C3g's...and JV has answered perfectly the difference - the 31 achieves this by NOT 'playing games'. This ability, plus all its other amazing qualities are what make this tube truly remarkable, IMHO.
  
 ps....another pair?...that's just as greedy as  me, amico mio!!  But a backup of these wonders is the only sensible option, to be sure!


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> I have no doubt and would absolutely love a pair. One day. I just spent my monthly budget on WA6 tubes (a big note of thanks to 004; he found a very nice rectifier that I could afford). Hopefully toward the holidays someone can help me find a good, reasonably priced pair of ECC31s. I really want these tubes!


 
  
 Which rectifier did you get?


----------



## agnostic1er

hypnos1 said:


> Home mini-meets...what a wonderful way to compare different gear - especially with a little something to lubricate the throat's overtime...


 
 Alsace is a long time land of good beer makers, so we will have to be careful of where we put our glasses


----------



## tjw321

I'm a bit short of time ATM so I'll just leave this here:


----------



## hypnos1

tjw321 said:


> I'm a bit short of time ATM so I'll just leave this here:


 
  
 Aah...that's a nice round number, tj...hope you manage a bit more time soon!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  
 CHEERS!


----------



## aqsw

Has anybody heard the Elise and the Microzotl2. Comparisons?


----------



## gibosi

Just a comment about comparing "tube amplifiers"....
  
 For any given amp, if you change the tubes, the end result is a different amp. For example, one Elise with a pair of RCA 6AS7 and an RCA gray glass 6SN7 sounds very different to another Elise with a pair of GEC 6AS7 and an ECC31.
  
 And which one of these "Elise" do you then compare to a Woo, Crack, DV or what have you? And of course, you can change the tubes in these other amps as well....
  
 My advice: Buy the best tube amp you can afford. And then customize it with tubes to make it the amp you want.


----------



## mordy

Yep folks, whenever u bid on sumthin' u gotta check out them shipping costs:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPERB-LOT-OF-31-VARIOUS-VINTAGE-VALVES-TUBES-ECC81-EL33-Y63-U50-6V6G-U52-02-/151802064690?hash=item23581baf32
  
 10 bids????? Nobody read the shipping cost??? How much?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
 Over $3,600.00
  
 On the other hand, maybe these 31 rubes are worth that much - don't recognize the item designations.....


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> Yep folks, whenever u bid on sumthin' u gotta check out them shipping costs:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPERB-LOT-OF-31-VARIOUS-VINTAGE-VALVES-TUBES-ECC81-EL33-Y63-U50-6V6G-U52-02-/151802064690?hash=item23581baf32
> 
> ...


 
  
 LOL!!!
  
 Does seem a bit steep 'eh


----------



## Oskari

The UK shipping is only £5.99, though.
  


> PLEASE NOTE: There is an error in specified international shipping. Shipping withing EU will be £14.50 and Worldwide £24.50


----------



## UntilThen

LOL that must be a typo error.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> Just a comment about comparing "tube amplifiers"....
> 
> For any given amp, if you change the tubes, the end result is a different amp. For example, one Elise with a pair of RCA 6AS7 and an RCA gray glass 6SN7 sounds very different to another Elise with a pair of GEC 6AS7 and an ECC31.
> 
> ...


 
 I agree totally with this. Even swapping tubes on the humble Darkvoice 336se gives me different results.


----------



## nephilim

I just had a closer look at my two Chatham/TungSol 6520 and found a difference which makes me worry a bit. The top of one tube is fully clear whereas on the other tube there are two regions which are not fully opaque but look a bit milky. Those areas are located next to the two gaps between the two bent black plates. In addition there are two tiny dark spots a few millimeters above the upper mica, sitting opposite of each other. I tried to take some photos with my crappy cell phone... I hope these are useful for the ones with trained eyes. While I am at it... the copper bars in the "bad" tube seem to be a bit darker than in the "good" one. The funky one has the (date?) code 3226001 while the other one says 322HT.
  
 Your thoughts?


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Just a comment about comparing "tube amplifiers"....
> 
> For any given amp, if you change the tubes, the end result is a different amp. For example, one Elise with a pair of RCA 6AS7 and an RCA gray glass 6SN7 sounds very different to another Elise with a pair of GEC 6AS7 and an ECC31.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Aahh but surely, g, following this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion would render most of the xmillion posts here in head-fi land pretty well meaningless, no?!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Just a passing thought as I go to the comfort of my bed...


----------



## gibosi

nephilim said:


> I just had a closer look at my two Chatham/TungSol 6520 and found a difference which makes me worry a bit. The top of one tube is fully clear whereas on the other tube there are two regions which are not fully opaque but look a bit milky. Those areas are located next to the two gaps between the two bent black plates. In addition there are two tiny dark spots a few millimeters above the upper mica, sitting opposite of each other. I tried to take some photos with my crappy cell phone... I hope these are useful for the ones with trained eyes. While I am at it... the copper bars in the "bad" tube seem to be a bit darker than in the "good" one. The funky one has the (date?) code 3226001 while the other one says 322HT.


 
  
 You have to remember... These tubes were continuously manufactured from the early 1950's into the early 1970's at least. Over some 20 years, changes in technology and materials plus feedback from the field resulted in incremental change implemented in the factory. Unless you obtain two tubes manufactured at precisely the same time, you will undoubtedly find small (and sometimes large) differences between tubes. These small differences are likely nothing to worry about.


----------



## nephilim

OK, as long as this is not a sign of a tube close to the end of its life span I am happy  Thanks for the quick help!


----------



## JazzVinyl

To my great surprise...the Italian mailed, French made Visseaux (Sylvania Licensed) 6N7G's were in my mailbox!!
  
 They were lightly packed, I am amazed that they arrived intact. They look good, appear to be undamaged, even after a ride, half way across the globe.
  
 These are big bottles, pretty impressive looking.
  
 When I get my amp, I will issue a listening report.  I don't have ECC31's to compare with, but will report on these vs 1960's vintage 6SN7's.
  
  
  
 .


----------



## mordy

Another post in the 'NOT TO WORRY" department.
  
 Bought some used GE 6AS7GA tubes. The seller threw in an extra tube that was missing the center guiding pin.
  

 Looks funny eh. (I know, I should have cleaned off the Bakelite base with rubbing alcohol but didn't get to it yet.) Anyhow, how do u know how to insert this tube in the socket the right way - the octal base is shall we say octal - circular - no telltale space like the 7 or 9 pin tubes.
  
 Let's look carefully - maybe there is a trace of the guide pin:
  


 Do u see it at around 12 o'clock? When I grew up this was the sign for the chemical element iron (FE)
  




  
 Maybe an European thing, but it looks like the FE sign. Fine - we have identified where the guide pin is supposed to be. But how can u make sure that u insert the tube in the right spot in the socket?
  
 Pinstripe. I choose red/blue from a USPS label.
  

  
 On the Elise the sockets are positioned in such a way that the guide pin is front center which makes the tube easy to place, even in a cramped space.
  
 So there we are - a workable tube. Next time you see a TS round black plate with a broken guide pin for a bargain price  don't worry - it can be made to work.
  
 And this concludes our little tutorial on how to live with a broken guide pin on an octal tube.....
  
 Have fun!
  
 PS: These older 50's and 60's GE 6AS7GA tubes sound warmer than the newer 80's versions (with the "chimneys" above the top mica), just like Shaffer said.


----------



## JazzVinyl

The 6N7G:
  

  

  

  
 Wonder what year they were made...???
  
  
 --JV--


----------



## gibosi

The round cylindrical plates and flat dimpled getter suggest to me 1940's, but this is just a WAG on my part. Interestingly, here is a pair of Mazda labeled tubes, probably made in the same French factory, with the same construction. Hope they sound as good as they look! 
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2X-TUBE-MAZDA-6N7-ENGLAND-ARMY-NAVY-STTA-EAGLE-PAIR-IDENTICAL-LOGO-MILITARY-NOS-/262024803550


----------



## Lord Raven

Hi Guys,
  
 Most of the reviews of highly regarded driver tubes C3G S and ECC31 are based on highly expensive power tubes by GEC or Chatham, my question is, would it be a good idea to pair these driver tubes with the stock power tubes? Even though I want to add these driver tubes to my Elise, I did not hear anyone say something about it so far. Or do I really need to invest in the power tubes either? In that case, what should be the best bargain tubes to pair then with the highly appreciated driver tubes?
  
 Thanks


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> The round cylindrical plates and flat dimpled getter suggest to me 1940's, but this is just a WAG on my part. Interestingly, here is a pair of Mazda labeled tubes, probably made in the same French factory, with the same construction. Hope they sound as good as they look!




I had it in my head that they wee made in 1946, but looking at the ad again, it does not actually say they are 1946 vintage, so I am not sure where I got that.

The pair you point out are $130.00 shipped, I only paid $62.00 shipped for mine. And I have not seen that many of these for sale. Not saying they are rare or anything but seem to be less common than many tubes.

Also...g....if I have these in the 6sn7 adaptor, and then put on the 6sn7 to LD mk IV powers adapters...will they work as powers in the LD MK IV????


----------



## mordy

HI LR,
  
 Try a pair of cheap GE 6080 tubes - look up recent review on this forum.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Just a comment about comparing "tube amplifiers"....
> 
> For any given amp, if you change the tubes, the end result is a different amp. For example, one Elise with a pair of RCA 6AS7 and an RCA gray glass 6SN7 sounds very different to another Elise with a pair of GEC 6AS7 and an ECC31.
> 
> ...




Agree 100%.

Speaking of the difference tubes bring to the table, I think there are 3 ways to approach a comparative review:

1. Compare both amps with their stock tubes, as, for example, Stereophile does.

2. Compare the amps with identical tubes, which is what I did with the DV, for the most part.

3. Compare the amps, each shod with the bottles that bring out its best.

I tend to go for either #2 or #3 in this market segment. With WA6, I can tell ya right now that option-3 will be utilized. 

My goal, personally, is to identify the sound of the circuit, which in a roundabout way brings us back to the body of your comment. Once that's identified, tube selection kinda falls into place, given a certain degree of experience, or knowing and trusting someone who's had quite a few years of this under his belt. As you know, I've never heard a tube like the GEC. For all I know, auditioning a pair could modify some of what I've said.


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> The 6N7G:




That sure is a sexy tube.




tjw321 said:


> I'm a bit short of time ATM so I'll just leave this here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Congratulations! 

I wonder, with the orders still coming in, what number are we really up to? I'm guessing ~25, perhaps more. I don't think Lucasz ever imagined that he'd be selling these things in numbers, as a custom, made-to-order manufacturer, to the point where folks stand in line. If fact, I give him a lot of credit for investing in this product solely on the hope that it would sell. I'm not sure if I would have done it, but clearly Feliks Audio is a special company, not unlike Glenn in some ways. [Boy, the 6BL7 Glenn really appeals to me. Love that tube! It sound killer in the DV and the Elise, as well, albeit with dynamic limitations]


----------



## Lord Raven

mordy said:


> HI LR,
> 
> Try a pair of cheap GE 6080 tubes - look up recent review on this forum.




I did bro, they are on my bucket list. Thank you


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> The pair you point out are $130.00 shipped, I only paid $62.00 shipped for mine. And I have not seen that many of these for sale. Not saying they are rare or anything but seem to be less common than many tubes.
> 
> Also...g....if I have these in the 6sn7 adaptor, and then put on the 6sn7 to LD mk IV powers adapters...will they work as powers in the LD MK IV????


 
  
 The vendor is charging more for the Military labeling. 
  
 And for sure, both the 6N7 and the ECC31, with those adapters, can be run as powers in the LD. The 6N7 drawas 0.8 amps and the ECC31 draws 0.95 amps, so both are well within the spec for the LD. It will be interesting to learn how well they work in that position.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> The vendor is charging more for the Military labeling.
> 
> And for sure, both the 6N7 and the ECC31, with those adapters, can be run as powers in the LD. The 6N7 drawas 0.8 amps and the ECC31 draws 0.95 amps, so both are well within the spec for the LD. It will be interesting to learn how well they work in that position.




Hmmmmm....they light up beautiful, but make almost no sound as powers in the LD MK IV hope that just means they are not compatible as powers. Both my Syl 6SN7 pairs, do work as powers in the LD....

Not sure what to think.


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Hmmmmm....they light up beautiful, but make almost no sound as powers in the LD MK IV hope that just means they are not comparable as powers. Both my Syl 6SN7 pairs, do work as powers in the LD....
> 
> Not sure what to think.


 
  
 6N7 + ECC31 to ECC33 adapter + 6SN7 to 6H30 adapter....   almost no sound? Hmmmm.... I am not sure what to think......


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> 6N7 + ECC31 to ECC33 adapter + 6SN7 to 6H30 adapter....   almost no sound? Hmmmm.... I am not sure what to think......




Ouy!!

Adaptor description is correct...

I will hope for better results in the Elise...but not promising in this little expiriment


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Adaptor description is correct...
> 
> I will hope for better results in the Elise...but not promising in this little expiriment


 
  
 I double checked and the ECC31 and 6N7 have the exact same pinout. So they should work. But perhaps the LD has wired the 6H30 socket such that there is conflict with the strapped cathodes...  I just don't know....


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> 6N7 + ECC31 to ECC33 adapter + 6SN7 to 6H30 adapter....   almost no sound? Hmmmm.... I am not sure what to think......




They were both perfectly equal in low volume amount.

I know the 6SN7 adapters are good because the 6SN7's work.

Seems like if the tubes were bad one might be a "little less bad" then the other, or one might be totally dead?

That seems like it might point to the ECC31->ECC33 adapters as suspect?

Whatchathink?


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> I double checked and the ECC31 and 6N7 have the exact same pinout. So they should work. But perhaps the LD has wired the 6H30 socket such that there is conflict with the strapped cathodes...  I just don't know....




Ah yes, the common cathode...indeed, that could be the problem. Good call. Wonder if the Elise will have the same problem?

ECC31 does not have a common cathode?


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Ah yes, the common cathode...indeed, that could be the problem. Good call. Wonder if the Elise will have the same problem?
> 
> ECC31 does not have a common cathode?


 
  
 Both the ECC31 and the 6N7 have a common cathode. The ECC31 to ECC33 adapter simply ties the ECC31 common cathode to both the ECC33/6SN7 cathodes. And this adapter works fine in my Glenn. And H1, Renderman and nephilim can attest to such an adapter working fine in the Elise.
  
 So yes, it could be that your ECC31 - ECC33 adapters are not wired correctly. But you won't know for sure until you can try them in your soon to arrive Elise.
  
 Edit: Again, the ECC31 and the 6N7 have the exact same pinout.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> So yes, it could be that your ECC31 - ECC33 adapters are not wired correctly. But you won't know for sure until you can try them in your soon to arrive Elise.
> 
> Edit: Again, the ECC31 and the 6N7 have the exact same pinout.




Roger that.

Appreciate your expertise, g...


----------



## Shaffer

Which tube influences the impedance of a HP jack on an amp such as ours - the driver or the power tube? Or, is it a combination of both?


----------



## JazzVinyl

Have a pair of NOS metal jacket 6N7's on the way, to see if they work as powers, in the LD MK IV (to see if my old bottle versions are bad).


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Which tube influences the impedance of a HP jack on an amp such as ours - the driver or the power tube? Or, is it a combination of both?


 
  
 In a true OTL (Output TransformerLess) amp, it is the output tube, specifically, the plate resistance of the output tube, as the HP is connected directly to the plate. It is the fact that the 6AS7 has a very low plate resistance compared to most other vacuum tubes that makes it eminently suitable for use in OTLs. And nothing in front of the grid of the output tube can change the resistance of the plate.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> In a true OTL (Output TransformerLess) amp, it is the output tube, specifically, the plate resistance of the output tube, as the HP is connected directly to the plate. It is the fact that the 6AS7 has a very low plate resistance compared to most other vacuum tubes that makes it eminently suitable for use in OTLs. And nothing in front of the grid of the output tube can change the resistance of the plate.




Thank you.

I asked for two reasons: my own edification (and hopefully that of others), and, because I'm using some small signal tubes in a DV - the second adapter hasn't arrived yet for the Elise - and my preferred AKG K7-series cans sound slightly deeper and certainly produce a lot more bass quantity. Given the explanation above, I guess it's due of the sound of the driver, itself.


----------



## Shaffer

Got the Niles switch selector this morning. Cute little bugger. Fits on top of the Oppo105 pushed back a bit, as the Niles is black and virtually invisible in such a config. Now all 5 of my amps are running.

Fired up the Elise for the first time in 5 days; I've been trying to concentrate on the small driver tubes in the DVs and didn't want to introduce an alternate sonic variable into my brain. After hearing the Elise again, it it weren't for the fun of playing with tubes, I'd humbly suggest that of my other tube amps are ultimately unnecessary. 

Not that I'm about to sell them; I do really like having a bunch of tube amps, but the Elise's performance envelope simply swallows them all. It's not subtle.


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 So the Elise ate the others alive - I knew it! Have no experience with the others, but I just felt it.
  
  
 Re great tubes: Having tried out numerous tubes in the Little Dot MKIII I came to the realization that most people will agree that certain tubes are top tier. There will be differences in opinion here and there and different preferences, but within a small select group of tubes there will be a consensus that these are the best ones.
  
 While burning in the Elise I first came to the conclusion that the best sounding tubes in the Little Dot may not sound the best in the Elise, but after 150 hours+ of burn in I changed my mind - the same best ones prevailed.
  
 The best sounding tubes (as a group) in the LD were the same as the best sounding tubes in the Elise. If you compare amps apples to apples it would seem that you should try the basic versions OEM, or, the most tweaked out versions, back to back.
  
 Speaking in race car speak, there are races where all the cars are identical, and the best performance depends strictly on the driver. Don't think we can do that with amps (although we have drivers LOL), but it gotta be the totality of one amp vs another amp.
  
 The Elise has an amazing clarity, quickness, sweetness and dynamic range.


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Hi Shaffer,
> 
> So the Elise ate the others alive - I knew it! Have no experience with the others, but I just felt it.




It's not even as if I had a burst blood vessel from concentrating on the sound; it was that obvious.

I just want to make it clear that a DV is not a bad sounding amplifier; it can be made to sound quite impressive. The WA6 - I've barely started working with, so there's a lot of hope left. Once some the new (to me) tubes arrive and I can play a bit, things may very well change. As it stands right now, however, the Elise performs on an entirely different level than anything else I have, tube amp wise.

The Elise is running NOS Chatham 6AS7G and 7AF7 drivers. The DVs have good tubes installed, as well, but not so much for the Woo, yet.

As a side note, the NOS fat bottle Sylvanias I got for a song (for the Woo) shipped from _Sylvania, Ohio_. No, really.




> Re great tubes: Having tried out numerous tubes in the Little Dot MKIII I came to the realization that most people will agree that certain tubes are top tier. There will be differences in opinion here and there and different preferences, but within a small select group of tubes there will be a consensus that these are the best ones.
> 
> While burning in the Elise I first came to the conclusion that the best sounding tubes in the Little Dot may not sound the best in the Elise, but after 150 hours+ of burn in I changed my mind - the same best ones prevailed.
> 
> ...




Not a bad idea.

FWIW, I kept my favorite LDIII output tubes and plan to try them as drivers in the Elise. Of course, the second adapter needs to arrive sometime before the end of the decade for that to happen.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> Not that I'm about to sell them; I do really like having a bunch of tube amps, but the Elise's performance envelope simply swallows them all. It's not subtle.


 
  
 That's exciting testimony! 
  
 ...As I start my 12th week of waiting for the "In-Test" or "Shipped" message


----------



## nephilim

A question regarding the Tung Sol 5998. Is there a sonic difference between the top and bottom getter variants? I am asking because I wondered whether the variant shown below is desirable.


----------



## gibosi

nephilim said:


> A question regarding the Tung Sol 5998. Is there a sonic difference between the top and bottom getter variants? I am asking because I wondered whether the variant shown below is desirable.


 
  
 I personally doubt that there is any difference, but as I don't have a pair of the bottom getter tubes, I can't say for sure. What I can say is the top getter version is by far the most common. And given that the 5998 was continuously manufactured over many years, there are likely some sonic differences between tubes manufactured more than a few years apart. So my recommendation is to match tubes manufactured at the same time with the same construction. The tubes pictured above, both manufactured in 1954 with identical top getter construction, should be an excellent pair, providing that they test well.


----------



## nephilim

They are between 98-102% on a Jackson 648s. I guess this is on the strong side?


----------



## hypnos1

2359glenn said:


> H1
> 
> You will end up using the cumbersome transformer voltage regulator power supply.
> A switched computer PS makes to much noise. I have tried this using one to run 13D1s in a Woo WA5 the noise was terrible.
> ...


 
  
 Hi Glenn...and anyone else interested, of course!
  
 Well, the first tube is 'done'; the laptop PS attached, and...you guessed it - HUM! (awful!). So I seek out the big gun, and...HUM!! (still awful!). Am just about to concede defeat, thinking the Elise doesn't like 12V in the neighbourhood, when I grabbed at the "grounding" straw -  linked the transformer neg. out to the mains in Earth and EUREKA!... deathly silence...not TOTAL death that is, thank goodness!!
  
 And I am in semi shock still...with just 10mins burn-in and partnering an ECC31, already I'm getting the same kind of sound I had with two new 31s. And so I hold out great hopes for when two FDD20s take the reins and have the time they need to REALLY deliver their magic. I am firmly convinced these will end up performing to the level of $350 to $450 ECC32s at a fraction of the cost!
  
 But of course it's early days as yet!
  
 A preliminary photo of a work-in-progress...but am happy with how things are progressing  :


----------



## Shaffer

I was very excited, as I thought that I found a pair of NOS relatively rare and supposedly optimum tubs for the Woo. One tube was a BIN and the other was an auction. I bought the BIN and waited 6 days to win the auction. Boy, was I excited to get a pair of these. Today, I see the (auction) tube is gone from my ebay page and the seller issued a refund. No note. Nothing. I'm pissed to say the least. Not only will he be getting his tube back on his dime, but I've started a claim with ebay. 

Meanwhile, I lost big, as I simply cannot afford to buy these tubes and thought that I really lucked out. As I was sure that I had the tubes, I didn't save enough for 6SN7 adapters and have no idea when I'll be able to order a pair and then wait a month for shipping from China. Could be around Christmas. IOW, I'm screw*d as is my amp. There's a big part of me that want to discuss this with the seller in person.

...just venting. :mad: :mad: :mad:


----------



## gibosi

nephilim said:


> They are between 98-102% on a Jackson 648s. I guess this is on the strong side?


 
  
 If they are not NOS, they measure NOS.


----------



## hypnos1

It's no use guys...I've just gotta make a quickie before hitting the sack  :  I cannot believe what I'm hearing after just a couple of hours of the FDD20 partnering the ECC31.
  
 Already this tube is performing AT LEAST as well as my other 31s at the same stage...and in fact even _better_ than one of them! I'm wondering if this could be another case of 12V versions of the same tube performing a shade better than the 6.3V...and I say _same_ tube advisedly. The FDD20 was apparently the precursor to the 6N7G and ECC31, and in all honesty I feel this Philips tube is even better made than the Mullard 31 and 32. It is truly a work of art, and the sound it is delivering already at this early stage has me rather dumbfounded. I was not expecting this...actually, that's not quite true - the minute I saw this tube in the flesh I suspected it must be something special. Can't wait to get it mated with its true partner, lol!
  
 Ah well, enough for now...I shall say goodnight to you all...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 ps.  gibosi...it's a crying shame you have adapters that don't treat this tube to pure silver and single-crystal copper wires - I'm sure they're helping my beauty to blossom nicely, lol!


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> It's no use guys...I've just gotta make a quickie before hitting the sack  :  I cannot believe what I'm hearing after just a couple of hours of the FDD20 partnering the ECC31.
> 
> Already this tube is performing AT LEAST as well as my other 31s at the same stage...and in fact even _better_ than one of them!


 
   
I consider this good news for everyone's wallet.  If the FDD20 (predecessor to the 6N7) preforms as well as the expensive ECC31, then one would believe the 6N7 (which is the predecessor of the ECC31) could also preform as well as the ECC31 on the Elise, as well.

  
 This means the $200 $269 and $499 pairs of ECC31's on that famous auction site, are vastly overpriced due to audiophool fan-boy-ism,
  
 I say....save yourself $200.00 and get a pair if GN7's or FDD20's (+ power supply), a pair of adapters, and enjoy 
  
 .


----------



## gibosi

Just to clarify... The FDD20 is not a predecessor of the 6N7 or the ECC31, and the 6N7 is not a predecessor of the ECC31. Both of these tubes were introduced in 1937 and there is no evidence to suggest that the FDD20 predates either of them. Rather, I strongly suspect that the FDD20 is simply a 6N7 with a different heater (13V) and a different base (P8A) for use in motor vehicles. And in fact, when running in 12.6 volt systems, the heater current of the FDD20 is 0.4 amps which is exactly what one would predict given that the 6N7 draws 0.8 amps at 6.3 volts.
  
 The FDD20 was manufactured by Philips Italy in Milano. I do not know if Philips manufactured a true 6N7 in this factory, or any of their other factories, but if so, that would be an interesting tube to try. 
  
 Unfortunately, I haven't been able to spend any quality time with mine, so at this time I can't really say how it compares to the ECC31. However, I am encouraged by H1's comments and intend to stick it back in the amp and get it burned in.
  
 Edit: If these tubes were manufactured during the early 1940's, I wonder how WWII affected the transfer of information, materials and subassemblies among the various Philips factories.


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> ps.  gibosi...it's a crying shame you have adapters that don't treat this tube to pure silver and single-crystal copper wires - I'm sure they're helping my beauty to blossom nicely, lol!


 
  
 I think you should make an adapter for me so I can hear what I am missing! But to be frank, I doubt that my old and worn-out ears would be able hear the difference....    lol


----------



## JazzVinyl

My Elise has shipped!!!
  
 And I asked Lukasz about using GN7G's as drivers in the Elise, his response was:
  
 "About 6n7g drivers - never tested, given their parameters are quite far off what Elise was designed for, it may make the amp working outside of it comfort zone (power tubes etc)."
  
  
 .


----------



## Shaffer

JV, congratulations! Good news, indeed.

A question: Digging though an old box of tubes, I came across a Realistic (Radio Shack) 6DC8. Not many markings - England and EP. Two saw-tooth micas, mesh plates. Very cool looking.. Any idea of who may have made it? Works well in a DV with an adapter, naturally.


----------



## UntilThen

Nice JV !!! That means mine has moved up the queue.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> JV, congratulations! Good news, indeed.
> 
> A question: Digging though an old box of tubes, I came across a Realistic (Radio Shack) 6DC8. Not many markings - England and EP. Two saw-tooth micas, mesh plates. Very cool looking.. Any idea of who may have made it? Works well in a DV with an adapter, naturally.


 
  
 The 6DC8 has three sections. There are two diodes and a variable mu radio frequency pentode all sharing a common cathode. I can't imagine how this tube could possibly work in a DV?


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> The 6DC8 has three sections. There are two diodes and a variable mu radio frequency pentode all sharing a common cathode. I can't imagine how this tube could possibly work in a DV?




I was a bit too excited when I wrote the post. The tube does work in the DV, but the left channel is significantly louder than the right. It's not a viable option. Yes, I feel a little stupid.


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> And I asked Lukasz about using GN7G's as drivers in the Elise, his response was:
> 
> "About 6n7g drivers - never tested, given their parameters are quite far off what Elise was designed for, it may make the amp working outside of it comfort zone (power tubes etc)."


 
  
 GN7G should be 6N7G, I think....  And the same thing could be said about the ECC31 and even the ECC32 as well.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> GN7G should be 6N7G, I think....  And the same thing could be said about the ECC31 and even the ECC32 as well.


 
  
 Yes, I often typo the 6N7G to GN7G..!!  I think I recall that is what Hypnos1 said that Lukasz said about the ECC31, that it was not recommended.
  
 But, you know how it goes....will have to try it 
  
 Might only try mine with the GE 6080 since I would not want to blow up the powers that come with the Elise (just in case).
  
 .


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Might only try mine with the GE 6080 since I would not want to blow up the powers that come with the Elise (just in case).


 
  
 I do the same thing with new tubes. I have a "new tube/burn-in" kit consisting of two RCA 6AS7, a Russian 6H8C and a cheap regulator. Don't want to take a chance with my favorites when first trialing tubes that might be defective, and again, when burning in, I don't want to put many tens of wasted hours on my favorites either.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> I do the same thing with new tubes. I have a "new tube/burn-in" kit consisting of two RCA 6AS7, a Russian 6H8C and a cheap regulator. Don't want to take a chance with my favorites when first trialing tubes that might be defective, and again, when burning in, I don't want to put many tens of wasted hours on my favorites either.




I, too, have a burnin/test kit. It's called a Darkvoice 336SE.

I use a stock DV output tube, and some Chinese 6SN7s. For the Woo, the stock rectifier for burnin, which I may get to use later today, and a couple of foul sounding RCAs.


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> I consider this good news for everyone's wallet.  If the FDD20 (predecessor to the 6N7) preforms as well as the expensive ECC31, then one would believe the 6N7 (which is the predecessor of the ECC31) could also preform as well as the ECC31 on the Elise, as well.
> 
> This means the $200 $269 and $499 pairs of ECC31's on that famous auction site, are vastly overpriced due to audiophool fan-boy-ism,
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi JV.
  
 It certainly will be interesting to see how your 6N7Gs perform...if you have the nerve that is, given Lukasz's comment! (see below...).
  
 Yes, those are SILLY prices for the ECC31s...I just hope nobody is daft enough to pay the money-grabbers, lol!!
  
 As for the FDD20, I fear this is only for keen DIYers with a bit of experience...viz getting the external power supply to the heaters in the adapter. In my own case it is 'easy', as I connect the wires directly to the tube's pins, and can just run the heater wires out the back of the new base (via the hatch I make for pouring in the epoxy resin).
  
 However, mordy has achieved the same thing in his LD by drilling holes in the adapter/extender to access those wires. He then uses a computer PS plus voltage regulator.
 I myself had good results using a mains to 12V transformer for LED lights and CCTV   :
  

  
 Mine was a 6A model, but this is the same unit on Amazon, but 10A for $16! Not the best engineering on the planet, but it worked perfectly for powering my 6AS7Gs in the LD, and now the FDD20s. And the beauty is now there's no need for the additional (cheap!) voltage regulator - it natively provides all that is required. HOWEVER, unlike for the LD, as I mentioned previously the hum was dreadful UNTIL I linked the DC negative out to the mains Earth in...and now there's no background noise whatsoever!
  
 So..."He who dares"!!...
  


gibosi said:


> Just to clarify... The FDD20 is not a predecessor of the 6N7 or the ECC31, and the 6N7 is not a predecessor of the ECC31. Both of these tubes were introduced in 1937 and there is no evidence to suggest that the FDD20 predates either of them. Rather, I strongly suspect that the FDD20 is simply a 6N7 with a different heater (13V) and a different base (P8A) for use in motor vehicles. And in fact, when running in 12.6 volt systems, the heater current of the FDD20 is 0.4 amps which is exactly what one would predict given that the 6N7 draws 0.8 amps at 6.3 volts.
> 
> The FDD20 was manufactured by Philips Italy in Milano. I do not know if Philips manufactured a true 6N7 in this factory, or any of their other factories, but if so, that would be an interesting tube to try.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks for putting things straight, g...you are - along with Oskari, Mordy... among others! - a veritable mine of information. I blame the ebayer's _mis_information, lol! (However, if it weren't for his mentioning the ECC31 connection I probably wouldn't have bothered looking any further. So a blessing in disguise, methinks! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 Interesting point re 'transfer'...I would have sworn the Mullard was a straight (almost) COPY! Either that or there was VERY close co-operation in their development...I reckon there's a very interesting story there. Especially as my first FDD20 is sounding exactly like the Mullard...in the Elise, at least - I look forward to your further findings in the Glenn...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 ps. I reckon you should trade in those poor ol' ears mon ami...you don't know what you're missing lol! (Actually, I'm sure you are underestimating your aural capabilities!!).
  
 pps. From the look of your adapter(!), I am indeed tempted to do something...but the only real way to go (as far as I'm concerned!) is to dispense with the adapter socket and wire as I mentioned before - except you don't need wires sticking out the back! (Now if I can find more of mordy's mentioned ridiculously cheap ebay used 3 tubes, this just might be a Winter time project...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


jazzvinyl said:


> My Elise has shipped!!!
> 
> And I asked Lukasz about using GN7G's as drivers in the Elise, his response was:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Great JV...no news, then WOW news...CHEERS! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Now as for Lukasz's statement...just like gibosi, this is somewhat confusing for me. I don't think there's any great difference electrically between the 6N7G and the ECC31, and I was under the (unofficial) impression I would be safe with the 31...unless we're missing something in their respective specs. Strange... So it looks like I must be the guinea pig for both the ECC31 AND FDD20 (6N7G), lol! And I don't actually mind one bit, as I have had no untoward murmurings whatsoever now, after MANY hours of 31 magic - and a good few of those in 5+ hour sessions! But I wouldn't blame people for waiting until I put even more hours of them in the Elise...


----------



## JazzVinyl

> Great JV...no news, then WOW news...CHEERS!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
  
 Maybe Lukasz is worried were gonna blow up his nice amps, and then blame him?
  
 Remember mine was shipped sans any driver tubes (because he cannot obtain "good" Tung-Sol's).. 
  
 So maybe his response to me was different, because he knew I didn't have the approved 6SN7's to insert, and was worried I would get carried away, and put in something crazy and blow it up?   
  
 What was his official response to using C3gS's?
  
 .


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> Maybe Lukasz is worried were gonna blow up his nice amps, and then blame him?
> 
> Remember mine was shipped sans any driver tubes (because he cannot obtain "good" Tung-Sol's)..
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes JV..._officially_ he can't OK use of tubes that are not listed in their literature - (which is a bit strange as the last time I looked the ECC32 was listed as compatible...??!!) but I have had personal, unofficial reassurance that my amp would not be harmed by use of the C3g, and later the ECC31...
  
 And so, of course, they must err on the side of caution....but since when have we _serious_ tube rollers done that, lol?!!
  
 Lukasz has at least confirmed that the Elise has been built with a good 'buffer'...which is proving - in my own case at least - to be allowing 'non-spec' tubes to be handled better than 'theory' might suggest...just as we found with our LittleDots!
  
 As far as the C3g is concerned, I have been running these for a VERY long time now, and so must deduce that they are perfectly OK in the Elise. And I am clocking a good many hours with the ECC31 now...and not a murmur of anything suspicious. In fact the very slight hum I could sometimes induce with the C3g (but only at volume levels that would destroy your hearing!) is totally absent with the ECC31..._and_ the FDD20!
  
 So have no fear whatsoever of treating your Elise to the magic of the C3g...they take the Elise to whole new levels...


----------



## Shaffer

A short update on the WA6 for those who are interested. Got some fresh tubes today. Nothing special, but they are brand new - a pair of NOS Sylvania 6DR7 black plates. They've only been burning for ~6 hours and I just _had _to have a listen. There's a lot more promise here. I'm surprised, frankly, by the change. I thought I had some good tubes, but this is different in a sonic sense. The bottles should be fully burned in by the time my super-duper rectifier arrives - I figure a couple of weeks - and then we'll see what the amp really sounds like.

I did pick up a couple of nicely tested rectifiers, both 5U4GB. A D-getter Sylvania and a dual-O side getter(s) Tung-Sol to get a point of reference. Both for a princely sum of $12 shipped. Have another on the way. Glenn recommended it in the rectifier thread and there was one, just one, on all of ebay. A 5AW4. Very inexpensive, too, and it tested well. Somehow, I don't think I could ever get over some of the prices on highly rated rectifiers. They're simply not for me. In all truth, before reading the Woo thread I had no idea they even existed. A $700 rectifier? It better come with an Orgasmatron. Wait, that wouldn't sway me, either.


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> A short update on the WA6 for those who are interested. Got some fresh tubes today. Nothing special, but they are brand new - a pair of NOS Sylvania 6DR7 black plates. They've only been burning for ~6 hours and I just _had _to have a listen. There's a lot more promise here. I'm surprised, frankly, by the change. I thought I had some good tubes, but this is different in a sonic sense. The bottles should be fully burned in by the time my super-duper rectifier arrives - I figure a couple of weeks - and then we'll see what the amp really sounds like.
> 
> I did pick up a couple of nicely tested rectifiers, both 5U4GB. A D-getter Sylvania and a dual-O side getter(s) Tung-Sol to get a point of reference. Both for a princely sum of $12 shipped. Have another on the way. Glenn recommended it in the rectifier thread and there was one, just one, on all of ebay. A 5AW4. Very inexpensive, too, and it tested well. Somehow, I don't think I could ever get over some of the prices on highly rated rectifiers. They're simply not for me. In all truth, before reading the Woo thread I had no idea they even existed. A $700 rectifier? It better come with an Orgasmatron. Wait, that wouldn't sway me, either.


 
  
 Hi S.
  
 Sounds like you're having lots o' fun with your amp collection...enough hours in the day?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 With your new tubes for the WA6, and the imminent rectifiers, the comparison with Elise should be getting _very_ interesting some time soon...I can smell that midnight oil from over the pond here!...


----------



## nephilim

So I "found" those super-expensive 5998 pair on ebay, wondered whether I should really pay that much, went to vacuumtubes.net only to hear that they are out of stock, returned to ebay and... the pair is sold. So who of you guys was quicker than me?!?


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Interesting point re 'transfer'...I would have sworn the Mullard was a straight (almost) COPY! Either that or there was VERY close co-operation in their development...I reckon there's a very interesting story there. Especially as my first FDD20 is sounding exactly like the Mullard...in the Elise, at least - I look forward to your further findings in the Glenn...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Upon closely examining the plates, they are somewhat similar in that both are using a round cylindrical design, but this style of plate was in fact very common in the late 1930s and early 1940's. In this case, the plates are not enough alike to conclude that they were manufactured in the same factory. But again, these round cylindrical plates were a very common design at this time, and it is certainly possible that Philips Italy manufactured them onsite, but my hunch is the plates and bottles were sourced from another Italian manufacturer, specifically, Fivre, primarily because Fivre was known for their distinctive violet-glass bulbs. And perhaps they also made blue-glass bulbs as well?
  
 For an interesting read on Italian tubes.
  
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/an_overview_of_italian_vacuum_tube_manufacturers.html
  
 Edit: After eyeballing all the 6N7s on eBay, I can't find any with plates that look like the FDD20. Fivre and Dario are different. The US manufacturers are different. In terms of construction, the FDD20 appears to be unique. And perhaps Philips Italy did in fact manufacture this tube in house.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> .....Have another on the way. Glenn recommended it in the rectifier thread and there was one, just one, on all of ebay. A 5AW4. Very inexpensive, too, and it tested well.


 
  
 There are two versions of the 5AW4. You want the one pictured in Whirlwind's post below, the tube to the right of Chathams is a 5AW4. Note that it has two narrow cylindrical channels creating an inverted V. This is the one you want.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/732875/feliks-audio-elise-previously-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype/2580#post_11895099


----------



## MIKELAP




----------



## Shaffer

mikelap said:


>




Yup, that's my boy (no pun intended).


----------



## Shaffer

Not the best pic; it's the one from the BIN. My tube.

That's right one, correct? Now you guys have me worried.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Not the best pic; it's the one from the BIN. My tube.
> 
> That's right one, correct? Now you guys have me worried.


 
  
 Yep, that is the right one.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Yep, that is the right one.




Oh, good. [big sigh of relief]


----------



## 2359glenn

Nice sounding tube for the most part.
 Can go in any amp that uses a 5U4


----------



## Shaffer

...forgetaboutit.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> While I didn't think it would happen, you were right. The new tubes make the WA6 sound so much better that I've been auditioning rectifiers since this evening - several hours each. Enough for a general impression.
> 
> Conversely, I bought the rectifier recommended by Glenn, because he recognizes the sonic prowess of the 6BL7. It's not a common tube. I probably would have never heard of it, if it weren't for gibosi. Its sound quality, however, is unlike any of the output tubes I own. Better. Much better. As Glenn invested his time and expertise into the 6BL7, being such an odd duck of a tube, I figured that it's a safe-ish bet to take a chance on his recommendation.


 
  
 Nice when a personal recommendation works out, and pleases, sonically.


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> Nice when a personal recommendation works out, and pleases, sonically.




Yes, most certainly. The rectifier recommended by Glenn arrived this morning and has been playing all day. It's quite good. The bass, especially, something the Woo really needed. Sure, i could pick out a few attributes that could be improved, but, overall, l think it sounds better than the other rectifiers I have in almost every way. To be fair, one of the rectifiers I've been auditioning is actually pretty decent; the previous owner included it with the amp. The others are a waste of time, unfortunately.

As an example, under no circumstance would I suggest the Tung-Sol rectifier. Zero, and I mean zero, redeeming features. It sounds like mud. More accurately, raw sewage. It's veiled, undynamic, veiled, lacks any extension whatsoever, veiled, not even musical in a sense of making bad recording more bearable, veiled, beyond boring, veiled, no detail and I'm not just talking low-level, veiled. Do I even need to say that using the words like resolution and transparency in conjunction with this tube is an insult to the English language? The AM radio dash speaker in my dad's '69 Nova sounded better than my cans driven by the WA6, with the Tung-Sol in tow, fed from either my turntable or an Oppo105. BTW, did I mention how veiled it sounds? A $15 274B-lookalike Chinese tube kills it, even though _it _ is much more pleasing with ear plugs in place.

Some may recall my bitching about having a won auction cancelled and being left with one tube, while needing a pair. Well, I'm absolutely thrilled to say that I found a supposedly NOS match for the bottle and bought it for even less. Should have it early next week. Fingers crossed. If this works out, I might even question my stance as an atheist. lol


----------



## gibosi

Speaking of rectifiers, this evening I managed to find a good deal on a fat bottle Cossor GZ37 (CV378/53KU). I am very excited and curious to see if it lives up to its reputation....


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Speaking of rectifiers, this evening I managed to find a good deal on a fat bottle Cossor GZ37 (CV378/53KU). I am very excited and curious to see if it lives up to its reputation....




Congrats! Should be an interesting tube. Looking forward to your impressions.


----------



## hypnos1

A PLEA to all fellow Elise owners...would love to hear your findings with different driver and power tubes - as Shaffer says :
  
 DON'T BE SHY, lol!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...CHEERS!


----------



## hypnos1

lord raven said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Most of the reviews of highly regarded driver tubes C3G S and ECC31 are based on highly expensive power tubes by GEC or Chatham, my question is, would it be a good idea to pair these driver tubes with the stock power tubes? Even though I want to add these driver tubes to my Elise, I did not hear anyone say something about it so far. Or do I really need to invest in the power tubes either? In that case, what should be the best bargain tubes to pair then with the highly appreciated driver tubes?
> 
> Thanks


 
  
 Hi LR.
  
 This may be a bit late, but as I've just popped in my Chatham 6AS7Gs out of interest (and to give the GECs a rest, lol!), with the ECC31/FDD20 combo in the driver's seat, I would advise you to seriously consider keeping an eye out on ebay for said Chathams (or Tung Sol/Chatham - with COPPER posts, remember!). The aforementioned drivers - or rather 2x ECC31s for you - are making mine sound such as they are making lies of ANY misgivings others may have about these power tubes!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ... they are performing way beyond what I also thought them capable of.
 Obviously the GECs bring a fair bit more to the table - but so they should, given their now stratospheric cost, lol! But now, with the 31s in place, the gap between these and the Chathams is much narrower. I am VERY impressed...


----------



## nephilim

I guess my ECC31 are now properly burned in - during last night's session I not only enjoyed the phenomenal bass but also wonderful treble and air. My originally stated worry that the ECC31 sound muted/veiled and the C3gS allow me to listen the "room", i.e. reverb and background 'noise' more easily is no longer there. The ECC31 sounds wonderfully complete. As the HD800 now deliveres plenty of low-end I just put my K712 on ebay.
  
 But Colin, I will not follow your FDD20 recommendation  My driver tube journey shall stop for a few moments to let me fully enjoy what I have now. I might look for another pair of power tubes... Maybe these here are worth a try? http://www.ebay.de/itm/181867484776?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Hi LR.
> 
> This may be a bit late, but as I've just popped in my Chatham 6AS7Gs out of interest (and to give the GECs a rest, lol!), with the ECC31/FDD20 combo in the driver's seat, I would advise you to seriously consider keeping an eye out on ebay for said Chathams (or Tung Sol/Chatham - with COPPER posts, remember!). The aforementioned drivers - or rather 2x ECC31s for you - are making mine sound such as they are making lies of ANY misgivings others may have about these power tubes!!
> 
> ...


 
 (I felt I had to awnser your plea)
  
 I have experienced something similar. With the ECC31s even the stock power tubes sound a lot better, clearer, more detail, better bass. In fact just about all power tubes I tried are enjoyable with these drivers in place.
  
 Have tried to put as many hours as I could on the ECC31s, the hum is now all but gone thankfully. With the ECC31/GEC combo there is now a whole new dimension of clarity and staging. There is also more bass, it goes deep, very deep! However it is very nice and dry, punchy bass, never bloated let alone distorded. Very enjoyable. Despite comments by others, in my opinion the ECC31 is a very balanced tube in my opinion. I realise I might get grilled for this but, maybe most tube lovers just becaume acustommed to less (lower)bass in there favorite tube amps. Or maybe it's just me being sensitive to siblance and I need more low frequency energy to compensate.
  
 Whatever the case, the ECC31 is a wonderful tube, before I felt different tubes we're more appropriate for different styles of music or recordings. The ECC31 makes the most of ANY recording, now I don't feel the need to change the drivers for a certain music style or recording. In fact, I like the ECC31 so much I sold the C3gs! Which is saying a lot, the C3gs are a very good set of tubes and I was amazed by them when I first heard them.
  
 To me the Philips ECC31 sound similar to the Mullard ECC33 I sent to MisterX. I only briefly listened to those but at least the frequency balance was very similar.
  
 I like the mid's of the ECC31 as well, vocals sound great and the soundstage is awesome... I need more time with these tubes to give a more accurate description of those aspects. Will update when I get some more time to listen.


----------



## SonicTrance

renderman said:


> (I felt I had to awnser your plea)
> 
> I have experienced something similar. With the ECC31s even the stock power tubes sound a lot better, clearer, more detail, better bass. In fact just about all power tubes I tried are enjoyable with these drivers in place.
> 
> ...


 
 I bet they do. In fact the ECC35/33/32 (and I guess ECC31) all sound very similar to my ears anyway. I'm actually enjoying those ECC33's as I type this. Wonderful tubes


----------



## hypnos1

nephilim said:


> I guess my ECC31 are now properly burned in - during last night's session I not only enjoyed the phenomenal bass but also wonderful treble and air. My originally stated worry that the ECC31 sound muted/veiled and the C3gS allow me to listen the "room", i.e. reverb and background 'noise' more easily is no longer there. The ECC31 sounds wonderfully complete. As the HD800 now deliveres plenty of low-end I just put my K712 on ebay.
> 
> But Colin, I will not follow your FDD20 recommendation  My driver tube journey shall stop for a few moments to let me fully enjoy what I have now. I might look for another pair of power tubes... Maybe these here are worth a try? http://www.ebay.de/itm/181867484776?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 
  
 Hi n.
  
 Am so glad your early doubts have now been dispelled...was almost beginning to doubt my poor ears - they've been doing a LOT of concentrated work recently, lol!
  
 Thankfully, I can now ease back on the 'analysing', and do more enjoying!!... Ooops...forgot - I've yet to make sure 2x FDD20s sound as good (if not better!) than 2x ECC31s!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
 ps.  Don't blame you for sticking with the 31s...less hassle!
 pps.  Don't know anything about those Cetron I'm afraid.
  


renderman said:


> (I felt I had to awnser your plea)
> 
> I have experienced something similar. With the ECC31s even the stock power tubes sound a lot better, clearer, more detail, better bass. In fact just about all power tubes I tried are enjoyable with these drivers in place.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi R. It is indeed very comforting to hear more endorsement of this tube. That it can take the Elise to levels beyond even the C3g still has me dumbfounded, lol!
  
 And although the Feliks guys must play safe and not officially list the ECC31 as compatible, I have now pushed the amp to well over 5 hrs' continuous use on several occasions, and along with the actual _total_ number of hours I can honestly say (once again!) she has not complained one tiny bit.
  
 Re the power tubes -  yes, the GECs are in a league of their own IMHO. But the more I listen to the Chathams in this scenario, the more impressed I become - to the point where I would say to anyone : if a choice was necessary, forget the uber expensive GEC 6AS7G versions and go for the ECC31s + Chathams (Tung Sol/Chatham). If anything were ever to happen to my CV2523s (Heaven forbid!), I'm sure the Chathams would help make the mourning period very short indeed. I certainly would not feel the need to pay current prices for the GECs...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps.  Your comments re its ability to shine in all music genres is yet another notch on its belt!!
  


sonictrance said:


> I bet they do. In fact the ECC35/33/32 (and I guess ECC31) all sound very similar to my ears anyway. I'm actually enjoying those ECC33's as I type this. Wonderful tubes


 
  
 ....and all at a fraction of the cost lol, -MX-!!


----------



## JazzVinyl

All these reports of the ECC31 working so well in the Elise...very exciting. 
Gives me hope that my 1940's big bottle 6n7's are going to work, and sound good.

Meanwhile...my tracking number indicates my Elise is on American Soil...in Jamacia, NY!
Probably see it here Tuesday, I'm guessing. The long wait will finally be over 

Anyone tried the "approved" CV-181 in the Elise?


----------



## gibosi

Shhhhhh!! Or it won't be at a "fraction of the cost" much longer!!


----------



## aqsw

Do you need adapters for the ecc31s?


----------



## JazzVinyl

aqsw said:


> Do you need adapters for the ecc31s?




Yes, fairly inexpensive ($20.00 plus ship) on EBay. Called "ECC31 to ECC33"


----------



## MIKELAP

jazzvinyl said:


> aqsw said:
> 
> 
> > Do you need adapters for the ecc31s?
> ...


 

 And be ready to wait 1 month to get them if ordered from China


----------



## JazzVinyl

mikelap said:


> And be ready to wait 1 month to get them if ordered from China


 

 So weird Mike, because mine came pretty fast!!  And a note inside from seller asking for positive feedback as he said he "did his best" to deliver them quickly.
  
 My seller was "xulingmrs"
  
 With other sellers...it too SOOOO long before they arrived that I had almost forgotten ordering them.


----------



## Shaffer

shaffer said:


> Yes, most certainly. The rectifier recommended by Glenn arrived this morning and has been playing all day. It's quite good. The bass, especially, something the Woo really needed. Sure, i could pick out a few attributes that could be improved, but, overall, l think it sounds better than the other rectifiers I have in almost every way. To be fair, one of the rectifiers I've been auditioning is actually pretty decent; the previous owner included it with the amp. The others are a waste of time, unfortunately.




As I listen to this rectifier, it's sounding better and better. Rolled a pair of 6EW7 this afternoon. I'm not sure if the rectifier made them sound a lot better, there's still the sound inherent to the tube, but it's definitely a step in the right direction. Ultimately, the RK-60 has a few more gold stars, but the Glenn-recommended rectifier is more fun. I can see myself using both, Given such a shift for the positive in the last few days, Can't wait to hear better tubes with a GZ34. The WA6 is finally sounding unquestionably more fleshed-out than either of the DVs.

Finally got the DVs to sound quite different from each other: one is a sledgehammer and the other is tuned using the Elise as a reference. It was harder than I thought. This tube rolling thing is a riot!


----------



## Suuup

Hm. Lukasz said he'd ship my Elise last week, but he hasn't said anything for 10 days now. Guess there's more waiting ahead.


----------



## MIKELAP

jazzvinyl said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > And be ready to wait 1 month to get them if ordered from China
> ...


 

 i ordered these didnt want the brass adapters heard some had interference problems and this guy had these socket not as good as the brass adapters but will see eventually .


----------



## JazzVinyl

suuup said:


> Hm. Lukasz said he'd ship my Elise last week, but he hasn't said anything for 10 days now. Guess there's more waiting ahead.


 
  
 About 2 weeks ago, he told me I was number three in the pipeline.  That was right after he got back from Holiday.  We saw SN #20 here.
  
 Mine did ship and is in NYC, wonder if my badge will be #21...?
  
 Yours should be headed your way, any day now, Suuup...


----------



## JazzVinyl

No one has tried these CV181-Z ShuGuang 50years TREASURES tube brand new ??


----------



## Suuup

jazzvinyl said:


> About 2 weeks ago, he told me I was number three in the pipeline.  That was right after he got back from Holiday.  We saw SN #20 here.
> 
> Mine did ship and is in NYC, wonder if my badge will be #21...?
> 
> Yours should be headed your way, any day now, Suuup...




That's what I'm hoping. Shipping can't take long, I almost live next door. This is going to be the week, I can feel it.


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> No one has tried these CV181-Z ShuGuang 50years TREASURES tube brand new ??


 
  
 These new Chinese new production CV181 are not "real" CV181. They are nothing more than a new production 6SN7GT with a fancy but false name... The real CV181 is the old production Mullard ECC32.
  
 I believe H1 has a pair of new production CV181 Psvanes....


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> These new Chinese new production CV181 are not "real" CV181. They are nothing more than a new production 6SN7GT with a fancy but false name... The real CV181 is the old production Mullard ECC32.
> 
> I believe H1 has a pair of new production CV181 Psvanes....




OMG, a pair is Mullard old production ECC32's....running crazy money on that famous auction site!!

$600.00 a pair??? $800.00 a pair???

That's steep, brother!!!

.


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> OMG, a pair is Mullard old production ECC32's....running crazy money on that famous auction site!!
> 
> $600.00 a pair??? $800.00 a pair???
> 
> ...




Someone I know is a speaker designer/manufacturer. His TOTL model sells for $300,000+ and gets installed in rooms about a quarter the size of a basketball court ... in places like Hong Kong. I mention Hong Kong, specifically, because I think most folks are aware of the housing costs and the physical size of an average dwelling. Those rooms typically have something like Soulution monoblocks ($180,000/pair) and a number of vintage tube amplifiers. People who own these systems hardly blink at a $1000 expenditure.

Using myself as an example, I have a good job. Could probably make more with a different firm, but the work is interesting. Have no debt other than the mortgage on my house, but I have two children heading to college in a matter of 18 months, my wife can't find a job in her field, and as a result I cannot afford schiit. Tubes like the metal base Mullards aren't aimed at a person like me; they're aimed at the guy who bought Gary's speakers or someone willing to sacrifice a whole lot for _a pair of tubes_. There's always something more exotic with promise of better performance just around the corner. Today it's the Mullards, tomorrow....

Edit: To add, there's something else to consider - the fun of discovery and the feeling of accomplishment that comes with it. H1 is a perfect example, as is gibosi. The two gents, alone, have introduced almost every rolling option we have. They did it by taking an educated guess and trying something out solely for the sake of interest. At the risk of drawing a parallel, which I'm not doing, I've been working with a slew of alternate drivers. A few sound very good and one is outright impressive. The cost? $4-$10 a pop. There's a notion of pride and involvement, faith in oneself, if you will. How the same thing can be translated into a big credit card bill, based on a universally acknowledged entity, is beyond me.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> ...forgetaboutit.


 
  
 That is what I say when I try and use the "Search This Forum" link in Head-Fi...


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> No one has tried these CV181-Z ShuGuang 50years TREASURES tube brand new ??


 
  
 Hi JV.
  
 As gibosi mentioned, I have the PsVane CV181 TIIs, which from my searchings are supposed to be a good bit better than the ShuGuang. And although they are very good, they come nowhere near the ECC31 - and therefore the CV181 (ECC32) neither. And the C3gs also blow them out of the water. In fact, the better old 6SN7s are also a much better buy...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


shaffer said:


> Someone I know is a speaker designer/manufacturer. His TOTL model sells for $300,000+ and gets installed in rooms about a quarter the size of a basketball court ... in places like Hong Kong. I mention Hong Kong, specifically, because I think most folks are aware of the housing costs and the physical size of an average dwelling. Those rooms typically have something like Soulution monoblocks ($180,000/pair) and a number of vintage tube amplifiers. People who own these systems hardly blink at a $1000 expenditure.
> 
> Using myself as an example, I have a good job. Could probably make more with a different firm, but the work is interesting. Have no debt other than the mortgage on my house, but I have two children heading to college in a matter of 18 months, my wife can't find a job in her field, and as a result I cannot afford schiit. Tubes like the metal base Mullards aren't aimed at a person like me; they're aimed at the guy who bought Gary's speakers or someone willing to sacrifice a whole lot for _a pair of tubes_. There's always something more exotic with promise of better performance just around the corner. Today it's the Mullards, tomorrow....
> 
> Edit: To add, there's something else to consider - the fun of discovery and the feeling of accomplishment that comes with it. H1 is a perfect example, as is gibosi. The two gents, alone, have introduced almost every rolling option we have. They did it by taking an educated guess and trying something out solely for the sake of interest. At the risk of drawing a parallel, which I'm not doing, I've been working with a slew of alternate drivers. A few sound very good and one is outright impressive. The cost? $4-$10 a pop. There's a notion of pride and involvement, faith in oneself, if you will. How the same thing can be translated into a big credit card bill, based on a universally acknowledged entity, is beyond me.


 
  
 Don't know if I deserve that accolade, 007...but it is much appreciated!
  
 You are certainly doing your own worthwhile experimentation, from the look of it...and that "outright impressive" driver for $4-$10 has piqued my interest - are you going to enlighten us, mon ami?!
  
 Re your edit...If such a conundrum is beyond you, F...what chance the rest of us, lol?!! (I gave up trying to make sense of this kind of thing in our 'Modern World' a long while ago - "common" sense especially would appear to have disappeared into the mists of time...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...sad...).


----------



## Shaffer

hypnos1 said:


> > Don't know if I deserve that accolade, 007...but it is much appreciated!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Hi JV.
> 
> As gibosi mentioned, I have the PsVane CV181 TIIs, which from my searchings are supposed to be a good bit better than the ShuGuang. And although they are very good, they come nowhere near the ECC31 - and therefore the CV181 (ECC32) neither. And the C3gs also blow them out of the water. In fact, the better old 6SN7s are also a much better buy...


 
  
 The Chinese "CV-181's" are all hype, and no goodness.
  
 Got it, and appreciate the information, H1...


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT.
> 
> This being said, I'd rather run a 7N7 or a 7AF7 as a semi-permanent solution.


 
  
 Shaff...
  
 Isn't the 7N7 a 6SN7 in Loctal base?
  
 If so, what does the same tube in a different base bring to the party?


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> Shaff...
> 
> Isn't the 7N7 a 6SN7 in Loctal base?
> 
> If so,* what does the same tube in a different base bring to the party?*




I don't think it's literally a 6SN7 with a loctal base. There seems to be some misinformation concerning the 7N7. For example, there were only supposed to be two sizes - the short bottle and the tall. Well, I own three sizes of Sylvania-made 7N7, one being a JAN medium bottle ordered for the signals core. It's also the only 7N7 I've seen with a visible glow. The early 7N7s had heavy chrome and opposed T-shaped plates with 2 holes, later versions had 5 hole T-plates positioned on an angle relative to each other. They don't sound the same. I'd suggest the earlier heavy chrome, 2-hole version, but the difference isn't enormous. The medium bottle sounds different than the short and the tall bottles, more so than solely comparing the tall and the short.

Most importantly, the Sylvania-built 7N7 in any guise doesn't sound like a Sylvania 6SN7GT/GTA/GTB. Actually, I've yet to hear a 6SN7 that sounds like a 7N7. Never heard a NU 7N7.


----------



## aqsw

I see on the Feliks website they have Melz driver upgrade. Wold this be worth the $100.00. I don't really want to get into rolling. I would just like to get a good tube sound from the beginning.


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Isn't the 7N7 a 6SN7 in Loctal base?
> 
> If so, what does the same tube in a different base bring to the party?


 
  
 To clarify, the 7N7 is electrically identical to a 6SN7. However, as a general rule, different construction typically results in a different sound signature. After all, not all the versions of the Sylvania 6SN7 sound the same, so one should expect that the different versions of the Sylvania 7N7 will sound different from each other and from Sylvania 6SN7s. So it just might be the case that someone will prefer the sound of a particular version of the 7N7 over the others.
  
 Also, the 7AF7, while not the same as a 7N7, is quite similar electrically, and some prefer them to the 7N7.


----------



## gibosi

aqsw said:


> I see on the Feliks website they have Melz driver upgrade. Wold this be worth the $100.00. I don't really want to get into rolling. I would just like to get a good tube sound from the beginning.


 
  
 In my opinion, $100 is too much. If you really don't want to go down the tube rolling rabbit hole, then I suggest that you spend some time reading the 6SN7 Reference thread to become familiar with all the different versions.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread
  
 Armed with this information, you can decide which ones you want, and then you can very likely purchase them for considerably less than $100 on eBay.


----------



## gibosi

I was able to spend a little time with the FDD20 and ECC31 this afternoon. And I emphasize the word "little", so this is a quick comparison, as I was primarily listening to see if I could discern any large differences.
  
 As H1 has posted, I found the tonality of these tubes to be very similar, from top to bottom. The most noticeable difference to my ears is the FDD20 is a bit more forward. Vocals and instruments feel closer to the listener which, for me, tends to foreshorten the depth of the stage. Going from memory, this forwardness reminds me of the C3g.
  
 My overall impression is that it is an excellent tube and I enjoyed it. So it really comes down to preference. I  prefer the ECC31, but others may well prefer the FDD20.


----------



## JazzVinyl

> Originally Posted by *UntilThen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> I have these to try on Elise.
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 UT...
  
 I will be _very_interested in your impression of the RCA VT-231 Gray Glass Tubes....a comparison of the RCA Gray Glass to C3g would be welcomed as well 
  
 .


----------



## JazzVinyl

I have often wondered why gibosi's avatar was a tube with a green tie-tie on it.  I thought..maybe he tied it up to be photographed...
  
 Now I see that it has a busted base and the green tie-tie is holding the base together!!
  

  
  
 .


----------



## gibosi

Yes, indeed. I thought my green tie would be just a temporary fix, but..... lol


----------



## MIKELAP

jazzvinyl said:


> > Originally Posted by *UntilThen* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> > I have these to try on Elise.
> >
> >
> ...


 

 I have several pairs of  RCA 6SN7GT greyglass and Tung sol 6SN7mouse ears i also would like to hear your impressions .That would be interesting


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> UT...
> 
> I will be _very_interested in your impression of the RCA VT-231 Gray Glass Tubes....a comparison of the RCA Gray Glass to C3g would be welcomed as well


 
 Hi JV,
 That impressions won't be coming for a while as my Elise is still one month away at best guess and my C3G tubes are half way across the oceans courtesy of Renderman. Impressions on the RCA smoke glass are pretty much documented in the 6SN7 Reference thread and I concur with those experts.
  
 In the mean time I'm more concern about affairs of state then impressions of tubes lol. We just had a new Prime Minister overnight. I'm going on a holiday with my wife so won't be participating much on the thread. I wish you much joy and happiness with your new amp.
  
 Cheers
 UT


----------



## UntilThen

Sorry Mike should attempt to answer your request before I dart off. RCA 6SN7GT smoke glass vt231 and Tung Sol 6SN7GT mouse ears are in stark contrast to each other.
  
 RCA is warm and lushy with a very strong bass. It's quite intoxicating listening to some husky vocals like Diana Krall on California Dreamin'. Tung Sol is light airy and transparent. Pick a sweet sounding female singer like Randy Crawford and you'll love it. I love both despite their dissimilarities. Depending on my mood, I'll switch my tubes on the Darkvoice and just enjoy the variations.
  
 Let's hear your impressions.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Sorry Mike should attempt to answer your request before I dart off. RCA 6SN7GT smoke glass vt231 and Tung Sol 6SN7GT mouse ears are in stark contrast to each other.
> 
> RCA is warm and lushy with a very strong bass. It's quite intoxicating listening to some husky vocals like Diana Krall on California Dreamin'. Tung Sol is light airy and transparent. Pick a sweet sounding female singer like Randy Crawford and you'll love it. I love both despite their dissimilarities. Depending on my mood, I'll switch my tubes on the Darkvoice and just enjoy the variations.
> 
> Let's hear your impressions.


 

 Oh boy!  Randy Crawford!!!   I have her on LP and one CD with her and Joe Sample (RIP to Joe who passed just about 1 year ago) and it is a fine CD, I enjoy it very much.
  
 I like the idea of the RCA's and it's great bass and lushness, may have to invest in a pair for the Elise.
  
 Was just listening to the C3gS's and the originally supplied 6H30EH power tubes in the LD MK IV and wow...what a great combination.  The 6H30EH's deliver lot's of weight and power on that amp.  The C3gS's are the best drivers for that particular amp as well. 
  
 Bobo Stinson Trio's "War Orphans" the bass so closely miked that you can feel the wood of the bass making the vibrations that form the sound of that instrument.  This will be combination that the Elise has to best....really really yummy sounds coming from the LD tonight.
  
 Have a good bit of time off, UT!!
  
  
  
 --JV--


----------



## Suuup

Just received an email from Lukasz. My Elise has just entered production. He also just received a good batch of good quality Tungsols. Not really sure what/how to feel right now.


----------



## hypnos1

aqsw said:


> I see on the Feliks website they have Melz driver upgrade. Wold this be worth the $100.00. I don't really want to get into rolling. I would just like to get a good tube sound from the beginning.


 
  
 Hi aqsw.
  
 As gibosi says, probably a good idea to do your homework and (try to!) get some kind of concensus on the type of sound you are looking for from different tubes...other sources of info are 1. http://www.head-fi.org/t/479031/6sn7-tube-addicts
                                2. http://www.head-fi.org/t/765460/feliks-audio-elise-tube-rolling-guide-6sn7-6as7g-6080-5998


gibosi said:


> I was able to spend a little time with the FDD20 and ECC31 this afternoon. And I emphasize the word "little", so this is a quick comparison, as I was primarily listening to see if I could discern any large differences.
> 
> As H1 has posted, I found the tonality of these tubes to be very similar, from top to bottom. The most noticeable difference to my ears is the FDD20 is a bit more forward. Vocals and instruments feel closer to the listener which, for me, tends to foreshorten the depth of the stage. Going from memory, this forwardness reminds me of the C3g.
> 
> My overall impression is that it is an excellent tube and I enjoyed it. So it really comes down to preference. I  prefer the ECC31, but others may well prefer the FDD20.


 
  
 Hi g...how many hours do you have on the FDD20? I found things changing quite a good deal with extended burn-in, even with just one partnering an ECC31. I know you must find there are nowhere near enough hours in the day/days in the week to cover your myriad combinations to test in your Glenn...but hopefully you might at some time in the future be able to give them (it!) a lot more hours and see what happens - I'm talking WELL over 50 hrs, lol!
  
 But C3g +++ for the price of a mediocre 6SN7 is pretty sensational in my book!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...'tis a crying shame the darn' thing is 12/13V heater (for those not into our 'playing around'!!...although now, you're lucky enough to have variable voltage).
  
 Which does actually bring me round to something that has rather intrigued me for some time now...viz. the degree of C3g 'forwardness' that you find so noticeable - such as to turn you away from them. Of the _many_ others who have gone over to this tube - both in Little Dot land, and now in the Elise - I can't recall anyone else noticing this aspect to any negative degree. Perhaps I personally prefer a more 'intimate' presentation, but I find it hard to believe that everyone else has this same degree of preference.
  
 And so I remain 'intrigued', mon ami...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...
  
  


suuup said:


> Just received an email from Lukasz. My Elise has just entered production. He also just received a good batch of good quality Tungsols. Not really sure what/how to feel right now.


 
  
 ELATED, hopefully Suuup!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...but yes, to Tung Sol or not to Tung Sol?...that certainly IS the question, lol!! (So many choices....
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...).
  
 Whatever your choice, I wish you all the very best....


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> Hi g...how many hours do you have on the FDD20? I found things changing quite a good deal with extended burn-in, even with just one partnering an ECC31. I know you must find there are nowhere near enough hours in the day/days in the week to cover your myriad combinations to test in your Glenn...but hopefully you might at some time in the future be able to give them (it!) a lot more hours and see what happens - I'm talking WELL over 50 hrs, lol!
> 
> Which does actually bring me round to something that has rather intrigued me for some time now...viz. the degree of C3g 'forwardness' that you find so noticeable - such as to turn you away from them. Of the _many_ others who have gone over to this tube - both in Little Dot land, and now in the Elise - I can't recall anyone else noticing this aspect to any negative degree. Perhaps I personally prefer a more 'intimate' presentation, but I find it hard to believe that everyone else has this same degree of preference.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have about 30 hours on the FDD20. And while I suspect that after 50+ hours, they may well sound a bit different, it has been my experience that the basic sound signature remains pretty much the same. That is, they will still be more forward than the ECC31.
  
 We all have different ears and different gear. A tube that one person raves about another may find to be just so-so. There is no "supertube" that everyone will agree is the best. With that in mind, I almost never say that tube A is better than tube B. For sure, I cannot say that the ECC31 is better than the FDD20. Both are excellent and in the end it really does come to down personal preference.
  
 Given that I have hundreds of tubes to choose from, I can easily afford the luxury of being very picky. So while I believe that the C3g and the FDD20 are both excellent tubes, neither is my first choice when I want to simply relax and enjoy the music. Different ears and different gear....


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> I have about 30 hours on the FDD20. And while I suspect that after 50+ hours, they may well sound a bit different, it has been my experience that the basic sound signature remains pretty much the same. That is, they will still be more forward than the ECC31.
> 
> We all have different ears and different gear. A tube that one person raves about another may find to be just so-so. There is no "supertube" that everyone will agree is the best. With that in mind, I almost never say that tube A is better than tube B. For sure, I cannot say that the ECC31 is better than the FDD20. Both are excellent and in the end it really does come to down personal preference.
> 
> Given that I have hundreds of tubes to choose from, I can easily afford the luxury of being very picky. So while I believe that the C3g and the FDD20 are both excellent tubes, neither is my first choice when I want to simply relax and enjoy the music. Different ears and different gear....


 
  
 Fair enough,g...to each his/her own indeed...


----------



## JazzVinyl

Went home for lunch today....my Elise tracking number said the beauty would be delivered tomorrow.
  
 But it came today, while I was home!!!! 
  
 I fired it up, with the 1960's Sylvania 6SN7's....sounded good!
  
 Switched to the C3gS's....improved over the 6SN7's, I thought.
  
 Switched to the mid 1950's G&C 6SN7's....and thought they sounded _better_ than the 1960's Sylvania's
  
 Then...I got brave and switched to the 6N7's (via adapters) and ____S~O~M~E~T~H~I~N~G____ happened....!!!!
  
 And it wasn't a BAD something!!
  
 Will write more,  later today!!!!
  
  
  
 --JV--


----------



## gibosi

A 1952 British Tungsram 6SN7GT, manufactured in Tottenham, arrived today. Here pictured next to a 1942 RCA. I am pleased to report that it lights up and plays.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> A 1952 British Tungsram 6SN7GT, manufactured in Tottenham, arrived today. Here pictured next to a 1942 RCA. I am pleased to report that it lights up and plays.


 

 Beautiful!!!
  
 Tell me about the 1942 RCA...I ordered a pair last night..one is 1943, the other 1948.  Supposed to be the killer for big bass.
  
 Your thoughts, g?
  
 .


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Beautiful!!!
> 
> Tell me about the 1942 RCA...I ordered a pair last night..one is 1943, the other 1948.  Supposed to be the killer for big bass.
> 
> Your thoughts, g?


 
  
 I agree with most of what others have written. It is warm and lush, very musical, with very good bass, but most detail freaks turn their nose up at it. However, to my ears, the detail is still there, but it is more subdued and further in the background. A very nice tube in my opinion.


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> Went home for lunch today....my Elise tracking number said the beauty would be delivered tomorrow.
> 
> But it came today, while I was home!!!!
> 
> ...


 
  
 So the wait is over, JV...wonderful news...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...(you sound like a kid with his first train set...such magical joy, lol!).
  
 But whoa!...give the poor gal a chance - she doesn't know if she's comin' or goin'!!!
  
 Brave man indeed re the 6N7s - now you've REALLY got me going...can't wait!


----------



## JazzVinyl

There she is folks....I think I am number 019. Can't actually find any medallion that says I am 19 but do have a hand written card from Lukasz, I think it says I am number 19...




.


----------



## mordy

Hi JV,
  
 Congrats on #19! But I have to caution you - first impressions with the Elise are very nice, but you cannot really judge until the Elise has been burned in - around 150 hours. It really changes a lot in this time, always for the better....
  
 In their rush to get my amp out, they forgot to write down the serial number on the card, but internal records showed it to be #9. I really enjoyed the sound right out of the box, but as time went on the sound changed, and my tube tube preferences changed as well.
  
 Now, i really rolled a lot of tubes in my Little Dot MKIII amp, and after burn in of the Elise, the same tubes that sounded great in the LD, sound great in the Elise. At this point I have no desire to try any 6SN7 or similar family type tubes as drivers since I find the C3g tubes far superior. With these drivers almost anything from the 6080 and 6AS7 families sound great!
  
 I firmly believe that we should be able to find great not too expensive tubes to produce beautiful sound from the Elise. A pair of used C3g driver tubes (10,000 hour lifespan) can be found for around $35 with a little patience (need adapters), and GE 6080 or 6AS7GA power tubes (older ones from 50's and 60's) can be found for under $20/pair. Or you could stay with the OEM 6H13C tubes as well.
  
There is always better, but the above mentioned less expensive tubes will provide great listening enjoyment at a fraction of the cost of rare and costly tubes such as the GEC 1834A and ECC31.
  
 In other words, with the Elise listening enjoyment may be very fulfilling even with less expensive and less exotic tubes.


----------



## nephilim

Congrats, JV... err #19! I found the serial number on a small badge on the bottom side of the amp.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Hello Mordy...

Gracious man, if it radically improves over the next 150 hours, I am not sure I will know how to act! This isn't an amp, it's some kind of spiritual transportation device, transporting my soul through space and time to the room where the music is being made.

Count me very impressed even without the beloved goodness that the burn in time will bring.

Agree that the C3gS's were the best drivers for the LD, they took that amp to another level. I never liked the 6sn7 as powers for the LD, and much preferred the standard issue powers for that amp.

When you say the Elise improves, would you say it is in 'bass authority'? Width and precision of soundstage? Air between instruments?

I am thrilled with the 1940's 6N7G's in the driver positions on the Elise. There is an infinite delicacy with which each note is delivered, as if it's wrapped in a specially formed velvet envelope, just for your ears, with an unlimited capacity to handle whatever comes it's way.

Really kind of at a loss for words, Mordy, I was not expecting to be treated to this much musical intimacy by the Elise. I had the LD MK IV really singing well, and I thought it would be better - but not this kind of total immersion better.

I share the piano bench, I am in the middle of the saxes on the front row of the big band. I hear my fellow musicians pick up their horn before its time to come in, I hear the rustle of the page as they turn it to the next section of the score. I feel the slight nervous anxiety when the big key change, or tempo change is coming up.

I am the microphone that is attached near the bottom of the big wooden upright bass, the musicians efforts are my task to soak up, to interpret, to put into a cohesive language to share with all who will clear their minds, and devote unspoiled attention.

I find it very emotional, be be part of the music instead of a casual observer.

Who knew? Who knew this was even possible?

Thank you, Mordy, I think one day you said "The Elise bests the LD, and there is no going back". That was the day I made up my mind, I would order one.

And thank you, Lukasz for enabling this miracle of sonic purity.

We are the lucky ones, all of us, Elise owners.

--JV--


----------



## JazzVinyl

nephilim said:


> Congrats, JV... err #19! I found the serial number on a small badge on the bottom side of the amp.


 

 Oh I see it now, thank you.  Yes, it's official, I am # 0019


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> There she is folks....I think I am number 019. Can't actually find any medallion that says I am 19 but do have a hand written card from Lukasz, I think it says I am number 19...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
*BOOTIFUL*!...as those in neighbouring Norfolk here would say...and CONGRATS...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


jazzvinyl said:


> Hello Mordy...
> 
> Gracious man, if it radically improves over the next 150 hours, I am not sure I will know how to act! This isn't an amp, it's some kind of spiritual transportation device, transporting my soul through space and time to the room where the music is being made.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Well, JV...what can one say?...another besotted Elise owner!! You have added some wonderful vocabulary to that already heaped on her -  she certainly is winning a good few hearts now...makes me even happier, lol.
  
 And yes, you will most certainly be lost for further poetry after extended burn-in! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...bass develops in control, tightness and detail; treble sweetens (the degree depending on tubes used); mids come through more as the last 2 "settle down"; transient handling becomes even _more_ polished, along with micro detail - which further enhance soundstage into startling 3D holographic territory (you will be floating amongst the clouds! - but not at the expense of imaging and placement); more air and space between/around instruments; increased tonal range in instrument and voice....amongst other, more subtle changes.
  
 The end result is a sound that is simply more coherent; beautifully balanced; dynamic (yet can still deliver fine delicacy when called for) and totally seductive, lol...you just fall straight into her arms - and are hopelessly HOOKED...line and sinker!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







.
  
 And all this to an even greater degree if those 6N7Gs do indeed turn out to be anywhere near the (much more expensive) ECC31s, and hence the even _more_ expensive 32s.
  
 This could well turn out to be the "bargain mistake of the century" lol!!!...but we MUST make sure they are pretty well identical electrically to the ECC31, to put Lukasz's concerns into perspective, and put minds at ease...
  
 WELL DONE indeed, JV...fortune does surely (often) favour the brave!


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> [...] I am not sure I will know how to act! This isn't an amp, it's some kind of spiritual transportation device, transporting my soul through space and time to the room where the music is being made.




This is precisely what we try to explain to folks when they come here. Not sure they believe us. When they ask us to make comparisons with commonly available amplifiers, it becomes a futile task - how do we explain to someone without a point of reference for this degree of performance that the Elise exits in a completely different sonic universe? It's very difficult.

[...]



> Who knew? Who knew this was even possible?




...and at such a low price. Astonishing, really.

Very nice post. A pleasure to read.


----------



## DecentLevi

@JazzVinyl, just two quick things for now - which headphones and which DAC were you using for this surreal experience?


----------



## JazzVinyl

decentlevi said:


> @JazzVinyl, just two quick things for now - which headphones and which DAC were you using for this surreal experience?


 
  
 Hello DecentLevi...
  
 I favor Beyer DT-990's.  Also have Sennheiser 580's with 99.8% pure silver cables but I prefer the Beyer''s.
 Using (3) 160 gig iPod classics via the line out dock, almost all music is in ALAC format from CD 
 Also have the Sony NWZ-A17 but am awaiting the line out cord.
  
 --JV--


----------



## Shaffer

JV, I didn't know you used DT990s. I like them a lot, as well. IIRC, I wrote something about the Elise/DT990 combo earlier in the thread. The spacial presentation is particularly impressive.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> JV, I didn't know you used DT990s. I like them a lot, as well. IIRC, I wrote something about the Elise/DT990 combo earlier in the thread. The spacial presentation is particularly impressive.


 
  
 Hello Shaff..
  
 Indeed, I love my Beyers.  Comfort and sound, in my book,  beat the Sennheisers.


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> This could well turn out to be the "bargain mistake of the century" lol!!!...but we MUST make sure they are pretty well identical electrically to the ECC31, to put Lukasz's concerns into perspective, and put minds at ease...


 
  
 The 6N7 heaters draw 0.80 amps compared to the 6SN7's 0.60 amps, but less than the 5687's 0.90 amps and the ECC31/32's 0.95 amps. So Lukasz can rest easy.
  
 Now, if any of you were to tell Lukasz that you wanted to run BL63/VR102 as drivers, this would certainly freak him out! lol. The BL63/VR102 heater draws 1.3 amps, more than twice that of a 6SN7! A 6F8G on steroids if you will.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> The 6N7 heaters draw 0.80 amps compared to the 6SN7's 0.60 amps, but less than the 5687's 0.90 amps and the ECC31/32's 0.95 amps. So Lukasz can rest easy.


 
 Nice, g...
  
 How about the rest of the electrical specs between the 6SN7 and ECC31?  I have been meaning to download data sheets for both, and compare but you might already know...?
  
 .


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> *BOOTIFUL*!...as those in neighbouring Norfolk here would say...and CONGRATS...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello H1...
  
 A big THANK YOU, for getting the whole Elise party started!  From your knowledge and experience extending the will of the LD to beckon sonic purity, the the Elise was born! 
  
 You are the father of the Elise'!!
  
 Also, curious about the burn in process.  Where do we think these improvements come from?  The power tubes?  Curious because I will leave mine running all day at med volume, but I remove the 6N7G (Joybringers) and replace with 6SN7's, for the burn in.
  
 The Joybringers may well be almost 70 years old...I don't want to waste any play time on them.
  
 Thanks again...H1...!!


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> How about the rest of the electrical specs between the 6SN7 and ECC31?  I have been meaning to download data sheets for both, and compare but you might already know...?


 
  
 I usually don't check the other specs because I don't understand electric circuits well enough to evaluate the significance of the differences, and in the end, in my experience, they are inconsequential in terms of safety. The major spec that Lukasz worries about it the heater current. If it is too high it can damage the transformer. So when looking at new tubes, the first thing I look at is heater current. If it is within spec, then no worries, I know it will work. However, just because it will work doesn't mean it will sound good. So your reports of your experience with the 6N7 is very welcome news.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> I usually don't check the other specs because I don't understand electric circuits well enough to evaluate the significance of the differences, and in the end, in my experience, they are inconsequential in terms of safety. The major spec that Lukasz worries about it the heater current. If it is too high it can damage the transformer. So when looking at new tubes, the first thing I look at is heater current. If it is within spec, then no worries, I know it will work. However, just because it will work doesn't mean it will sound good. So your reports of your experience with the 6N7 is very welcome news.


 
  
 It's easy to find complete specs for the 6N7G but not so easy for the ECC31.  Since we think the 0.8 amp current draw of the 6N7G are perfectly safe for the Elise, I am not going to worry about the rest, and just enjoy the tremendous sound quality improvement the 6N7G's bring, over 6SN7's and even over C3gS's.
  
 I am sooooo glad that these bottles work in the Elise.  I have read stories of them _not_ working in other amp brands, so the topology of the amp, must facilitate the difference.
  
 Hats off to Lukasz and Team on this design!
  
  
 .


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> It's easy to find complete specs for the 6N7G but not so easy for the ECC31.  Since we think the 0.8 amp current draw of the 6N7G are perfectly safe for the Elise, I am not going to worry about the rest, and just enjoy the tremendous sound quality improvement the 6N7G's bring, over 6SN7's and even over C3gS's.


 
  
 The ECC31 is identical to the ECC32, except for the common cathode:
  
 http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/129/e/ECC32.pdf


----------



## gibosi

Given that the Elise does not use vacuum tube rectification, this is slightly off-topic, but then tube porn is always "on topic"! lol 
  
 This morning I took delivery of a Cossor CV378 / 53KU / GZ37. This tube was manufactured in High Wycombe, England, in 1952. Many refer to this tube as a "Fat GZ37". Next to it is a 1959 Mullard CV378 / 53KU / GZ37, often referred to as a "Skinny GZ37", manufactured in Blackburn.
  
 Wow! The Cossor takes my Glenn to a whole new level! 
  

  
 And this is pretty big tube, show here next to a 5998.


----------



## mordy

Hi JV,
  
 Very happy to hear how much you enjoy the Elise, and yes, I am the one that said that the Elise is much better than a heavily modded Little Dot, and there is no going back.
  
 Regarding your questions what happens after burn in, h 1 described it much more eloquently than I can, and there is no need to add anything. I also enjoyed your description of the sound!
  
 The only problem I have is that this beautiful sound now becomes the New Normal - but - it still continues to amaze me! Here and there you just stop what you are doing and say to yourself: WOW!
  
 Looked at the bottom of my amp - no badge with the serial number.


----------



## JazzVinyl

> Wow! The Cossor takes my Glenn to a whole new level!


 
  
 I love it when a "whole new level" is achieved!
  
 Congrats!


----------



## mordy

Hi G,
  
 Next to the picture of the Fat Boy is a 2399 (not 5998), but I assume that the size (and tube) is identical....
  
 Speaking of large tubes, there is something called Giant tubes, such as the 7242:


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> Hi JV,
> 
> Very happy to hear how much you enjoy the Elise, and yes, I am the one that said that the Elise is much better than a heavily modded Little Dot, and there is no going back.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello Mordy...
  
 Yes!  The new beautiful level of purity is now the new normal and you cannot go back!  That is exactly how I feel about the 1940's 6N7G's...no going back to any other driver tubes.  They are a step in the wrong direction by comparison.
  
 How many times have I had that happen?  A new turntable, or a new amp, or speakers...ratchets up the sound quality level and you think to yourself: "How the heck did a listen to that  old rig so long, why didn't I know about THIS"...
  
 That is exactly what has happened in headphone land.  A whole new level has been achieved!
  
 I have already had a number of "WOW, did you hear THAT?" moments 
  
 Also:  My bottom badge certainly looks "hand stamped".
  
 See Ya
  
 .


----------



## aqsw

Got my shipping quote yesterday. Just waiting for another reply on ordering procedure. 6-7 weeks delivery. Should arrive at about the same time as my Cavalli LC. I'm hoping these two amps complement each other.


----------



## JazzVinyl

aqsw said:


> Got my shipping quote yesterday. Just waiting for another reply on ordering procedure. 6-7 weeks delivery. Should arrive at about the same time as my Cavalli LC. I'm hoping these two amps complement each other.


 
  
 Congrats!!!
  
 Not familiar with the Cavalli LC but you'll need more socks, after owning the Elise...
  
 --JV--


----------



## agnostic1er

Hello guys, 
  
 Just got  
*2x MATCHED 6080 Sylvania USA Double Triode Power PAIR Tubes E6080 6520 CV2984 *and 
*MATCHED DUO PAIR of FOTON Soviet Military <> 6N8S TUBES 1962 made STRONG 6SN7 *
 from a bulgarian seller for a reasonable price; very favorable feeling on my hd800 for the moment, some more feedback later... after burn-in.


----------



## aqsw

jazzvinyl said:


> Congrats!!!
> 
> Not familiar with the Cavalli LC but you'll need more socks, after owning the Elise...
> 
> --JV--


 
 I'm hoping I don't need too many. I don't want to get into rolling. For now, I"m going to try and read some threads, buy the (proper) tubes and hope it is what I want.
 I don't mind spending on the proper tubes, but I really don't want to use up a couple dozen socks to find my sound. They are quite expensive.


----------



## Shaffer

aqsw said:


> I'm hoping I don't need too many. I don't want to get into rolling. For now, I"m going to try and read some threads, buy the (proper) tubes and hope it is what I want.
> I don't mind spending on the proper tubes, but I really don't want to use up a couple dozen socks to find my sound. They are quite expensive.




What sonic attributes do you prefer? IOW, how would you like the amp to sound? We have folks here with a lot of experience with a variety of tubes. Perhaps we could save you a little time.


----------



## aqsw

shaffer said:


> What sonic attributes do you prefer? IOW, how would you like the amp to sound?


 
 Clear and strong  bass, lush mids, and no *sibilance* on hi's. Does that help?,
 I will be using these with LCD 2.2 pre fazor, and Mr Speakers Ether (open), and Oppo PM-3s.
 Will be using a Hegel HD12 as a DAC.


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Next to the picture of the Fat Boy is a 2399 (not 5998), but I assume that the size (and tube) is identical....


 
  
 A 2399 is in fact a 5998. There is no entry for 2399 in the Electron Tube Registration List, and thus, technically, there is no such thing as a 2399 vacuum tube. I can only assume that one of Chatham's customers, unknown to us, used No. 3002399, or 2399 for short, as an internal part number. In the same way, one often finds tubes with IBM part numbers, GM part numbers and so on.


----------



## Shaffer

aqsw said:


> Clear and strong  bass, lush mids, and no *sibilance* on hi's. Does that help?,
> I will be using these with LCD 2.2 pre fazor, and Mr Speakers Ether (open), and Oppo PM-3s.
> Will be using a Hegel HD12 as a DAC.




To clarity, as some recordings have natural sibilance, if you will, resulting from the process itself, would you prefer for that to be smoothed-out, as well?


----------



## aqsw

shaffer said:


> To clarity, as some recordings have natural sibilance, if you will, resulting from the process itself, would you prefer for that to be smoothed-out, as well?


 
 Not really, If it's natural, I'm ok with it. The phones I'm using wouldn't hi-lite that area.


----------



## Renderman

agnostic1er said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> Just got
> *2x MATCHED 6080 Sylvania USA Double Triode Power PAIR Tubes E6080 6520 CV2984 *and
> ...


 
 I have it on good authority UntilThen has almost the exact same set of tubes coming to him!  (6N8S)


----------



## Shaffer

aqsw said:


> Not really, If it's natural, I'm ok with it. The phones I'm using wouldn't hi-lite that area.




My recommendation would be CBC/Hytron 6SN7GT. Mind you, relatively exotic tubes are out of my reach.

Curious as to what the others suggest.


----------



## agnostic1er

renderman said:


> I have it on good authority UntilThen has almost the exact same set of tubes coming to him!  (6N8S)


 
 Seems Shaffer also, RCA 6080 (probably close to Sylvanias) and Foton 6SN7... in the first post in your thread:http://www.head-fi.org/t/765460/feliks-audio-elise-tube-rolling-guide-6sn7-6as7g-6080-5998
 First feelings are: flesh, vocals are nicely present...


----------



## aqsw

shaffer said:


> My recommendation would be CBC/Hytron 6SN7GT. Mind you, relatively exotic tubes are out of my reach.
> 
> Curious as to what the others suggest.


 
 Me Too!!


----------



## JazzVinyl

aqsw said:


> Clear and strong  bass, lush mids, and no *sibilance* on hi's. Does that help?,
> I will be using these with LCD 2.2 pre fazor, and Mr Speakers Ether (open), and Oppo PM-3s.
> Will be using a Hegel HD12 as a DAC.


 
  
 Not familiar with your headphones or DAC, but sounds like a pair of 1940's RCA Grey Glass 6SN7's match your desires...
  
 See: http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread


----------



## CITIZENLIN

jazzvinyl said:


> Went home for lunch today....my Elise tracking number said the beauty would be delivered tomorrow.
> 
> But it came today, while I was home!!!!
> 
> ...


 
 Finally..... woohooooo... congrats to ya. Hope you like the amp. I am enjoying it everyday for the last 20 plus days.


----------



## CITIZENLIN

jazzvinyl said:


> Not familiar with your headphones or DAC, but sounds like a pair of 1940's RCA Grey Glass 6SN7's match your desires...
> 
> See: http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread


 
 JV,
  
 If you like RCA grey 6sn7gt, you might like Kenrad 6sn7gt clear or black glass. Sonically similar to RCA but tighter bass and bigger/thicker vocal yet still silky.


----------



## aqsw

aqsw said:


> Clear and strong  bass, lush mids, and no *sibilance* on hi's. Does that help?,
> I will be using these with LCD 2.2 pre fazor, and Mr Speakers Ether (open), and Oppo PM-3s.
> Will be using a Hegel HD12 as a DAC.


 
 Also a limit of about $400.00  for the 4 tubes.
 Thanks Guys


----------



## Shaffer

aqsw said:


> Also a limit of about $400.00  for the 4 tubes.
> Thanks Guys




Then, add a pair of Chatham 6AS7G (output tubes) into the mix.


----------



## aqsw

So 6sn7gt Hytron or kenrad and 6as7g chatham? Do I need any adaptors?,

Sorry guys, I really am ignorant when it comes to tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

aqsw said:


> So 6sn7gt Hytron and 6as7g chatham?




That would be my recommendation. A NOS pair of Chathams recently sold for ~$100 and a NOS pair of CNS/Hytron GTs anywhere from $50-up, depending on how lucky you are. That's considerably less than your budget, which may very well allow for a pair of Chatham 5998 output tubes, if you can find a nice pair. 

As a matter of transparency, I don't own 5998, just JAN and consumer versions of Chatham 6AS7G. If other folks disagree, please feel free to recommend another option.


----------



## CITIZENLIN

aqsw said:


> So 6sn7gt Hytron or kenrad and 6as7g chatham? Do I need any adaptors?,
> 
> Sorry guys, I really am ignorant when it comes to tubes.


 
 Hello aqsw,
  
 No, you don't need adapters for 6SN7 as drivers. No adapters needed for 6AS7G either.


----------



## aqsw

Thanks guys, Got to start searching now!


----------



## DecentLevi

Another shout-out to @JazzVinyl and anybody too.
  
 Just like to hand it to ya once more, your impressions on page 187 were trend-settingly good! If anyone knows if there is a _*best-of*_ section for Head-Fi, this would make a good addition.
  
 I was actually quite surprised that you could get such a holographic like soundstage from a DT-990. While I haven't tried this one yet, I do remember the stage from the DT 770 and 880 being barely noticeable. I would definitely recommend you to try these headphones with this amp though, and you may be astonished at the soundstage can still be had: Senn. HD 580, 600, 650 or 800; LCD-2 or Hifiman HE-6. Not enough money to splurge on them? I hear ya! You could take this amp to a local meet to try these if you like. But maybe DT 990 is a better pairning...
  
 Also regarding this snippet:
_"Agree that the C3gS's were the best drivers for the LD, they took that amp to another level. I never liked the 6sn7 as powers for the LD, and much preferred the standard issue powers for that amp."_
  
 Sorry I didn't follow. Do you mean that the Elise comes with the C3GS power drivers, which you found to be better than any of the 6SN7's you've tried in it? (I hope so because it looks like these aren't available anywhere online). Thanks
  
 EDIT: The AKG K701 and 712 are also known to have amazing soundstage


----------



## CITIZENLIN

decentlevi said:


> Another shout-out to @JazzVinyl and anybody too.
> 
> Just like to hand it to ya once more, your impressions on page 187 were trend-settingly good! If anyone knows if there is a _*best-of*_ section for Head-Fi, this would make a good addition.
> 
> ...


 
 Hello Decentlevi
  
 Even with stock tubes, Elise is very good. I don't have DT990 but I do have DT880-600 and Elise makes DT880 shines. IMO Elise shines in sound stage , yes holographic and harmony yet totally back background. Elise gives you gigantic holographic sound stage (width and depth) using as PREAMP. 
  
 No, Elise does not come with C3Gs.


----------



## CITIZENLIN

Elise #17
  
 130 plus hours in... Listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXEHIYwqjcM with Elise as preamp.
  
 Silky voice of Lizz, Pairing with Chatham 2399 , 6sn7W 
  
 I can see about 20-25' wide, 10-15' deep sound stage. 
  
 Note : C3Gs sound little too bright for my ears in system but love them C3Gs for HPs.


----------



## mordy

Hi G,
  
 Funny, my only 5998 tube says IBM 5998...


----------



## mordy

Hi All,
  
 U always learn sumthin' new. This is from the October 2015 issue of Stereophile magazine p.149. Written by a reviewer by the name of Herb Reichert:
  
 "THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO WITH A THERMIONIC VALVE IS TO HOLD IT IN YOUR HAND AND STUDY IT WITH YOUR EYES. MORE THAN YOU MIGHT THINK, WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET. HIGH ENERGY ELECTRONS ARE BOILED OFF THE HEATER OR CATHODE, PASS THROUGH THE WIRE CONTROL GRID,AND COLLIDE FORCEFULLY WITH THAT BIG BLACK, GRAY, OR SILVER THING - THE ANODE, OR "PLATE"  THAT OCCUPIES MOST OF THE SPACE INSIDE THE BOTTLE. WHAT THAT ANODE STRUCTURE LOOKS LIKE IS PROBABLY WHAT YOUR MID RANGE WILL SOUND LIKE - IE, IF THE ANODE LOOKS SMOOTH AND BIG AND RICHLY TESTURED, THOSE SAME QUALITIES ARE LIKELY TO APPLY TO THE SOUND OF THE THE MIDRANGE. STUDY THE TEXTURE, SHAPE, AND COLOR OF ANY TUBE'S ANODE, THEN USE IT TO PLAY SOME FRANK SINATRA OR ELLA FITZGERALD. YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED TO DISCOVER THE USEFULNESS OF THIS MAXIM!"
  
  
  
  
 I have not heard the Bendix 6080 graphite plate tubes yet, but according to this the mid range sound should be very phat and heavy because that is how the plates look. (I do have to admit that I have a pair of old RCA 6AK5 tubes with silver colored plates that sound very bright and unpleasant.) BUT, IMHO the color of the plate is not related to the sound, although some sellers claim that black plate sounds better (probably related to the green color of the US dollar bills), but that's another story.
  
 WHAT DO U THINK?
  
  
 PS: OK, I admit it, I do read Stereophile (old habit). BUT, a review of the Little Dot MKIII by Sam Tellig some 6 years ago got me hooked on tube preamps... I don't think that I am a Stereophile elitist with a free hand me-down ss amp and $60 speakers LOL { I used to spend big bucks on Hi Fi equipment but that's another story as well. The upside is that after 20-30 years these items keep 1/3 of their value compared to when new. I know, just sold some oldies but goodies)


----------



## mordy

Hi aqsw,
  
 My humble suggestion for excellent sound in the Elise is in another direction but well within your budget, almost within budget taking off one zero from the $400 LOL:
  
 Drivers: C3g with adapters (ask hypnos 1 where to get them) and GE 1959-62 6AS6GA power tubes. Even just clicking on Buy it now, it would not come to more than $140, and shopping carefully the price could be less than $100.
  
 Here are today's offers:
  
 http://www.ebay.de/itm/2-X-C3g-Pentodo-SIMENS-Tube-Valve-Rohre-/271977467643?hash=item3f531ecefb
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Strong-Matched-HP-by-GE-Black-Plate-Top-O-Getter-6AS7GA-Tubes-/121376147518?hash=item1c4295083e
  
 I have the identical HP/GE 6AS7GA tubes, and these are great!
  
 Use google translate to decipher the Italian language - I believe that the C3g tubes test 100% - not worried about used tubes when life span is 10,000 hours.
  
 If u like the tubes, u can always look for a good deal on NOS, but the above is what I found by taking a cursory budget look right now.
  
 The C3g tubes are a little sharp in the treble, and the GE tubes balance then very nicely for a gorgeous lyrical sweet musical sound with good punch in the bass.


----------



## gibosi

Is anyone up to trying a new tube for the good of the order?  The Raytheon 5694.
  
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_5694.html
  
 This tube is a successor to the 6N7G and as such, is very similar except that it has separate cathodes. So in this regard it is often compared to the ECC32. Anyway here are a couple very favorable comments:
  
 https://app.audiogon.com/listings/tubes-raytheon-5694-vacuum-tube-electronically-similar-to-a-ecc32-cv-181-but-better-in-ever-2014-10-05-accessories-80905-colorado-springs-co
  
 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/216231-nos-neglected-high-end-audio-tube.html
  
 And best of all, they can be purchased for $12 to $14.
  
 http://users.rcn.com/brentjes/bjtubes.htm  (search for 5694)
  
 http://www.vacuumtubes.net/Prices%20701A-WE%20to%205998A.htm (scroll down for 5694)
  
 The only drawback is they require a simple, but relatively cheap, pin-adapter:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/191257164946
  
 Given that the ECC31, FDD20 and 6N7G are performing very well in the Elise, I think the 5694 is well worth the time and relatively few dollars to give it a try. However, I thought that for once, I would wait for someone else to be first! So is anyone willing to give this a try?


----------



## mordy

Hi Citizenlin,
  
 Try the GE 6AS7GA mentioned above to tame the C3g tubes - amazing sound.


----------



## Shaffer

decentlevi said:


> Another shout-out to @JazzVinyl
> and anybody too.
> 
> Just like to hand it to ya once more, your impressions on page 187 were trend-settingly good! If anyone knows if there is a _*best-of*_ section for Head-Fi, this would make a good addition.




Agreed.



> *I was actually quite surprised that you could get such a holographic like soundstage from a DT-990. While I haven't tried this one yet, I do remember the stage from the DT 770 and 880 being barely noticeable. *I would definitely recommend you to try these headphones with this amp though, and you may be astonished at the soundstage can still be had: Senn. HD 580, 600, 650 or 800; LCD-2 or Hifiman HE-6. Not enough money to splurge on them? I hear ya! You could take this amp to a local meet to try these if you like. But maybe DT 990 is a better pairning...




I own DT880/600. They're capable of throwing an even more enveloping soundfield than DT990s to the point where I have to take off the cans to make sure the full system isn't playing, as well. It's a matter of associated equipment and good lossless source material. Unfortunately, this is a "I have no money and no audio experience" forum and the idea of quality audio gear is greatly overshadowed by a _belief _that some cheap POS isn't all that different than a meticulously designed and voiced component. FWIW, I own AKG K702 and K7XX. neither throws as enveloping of a soundfield as the two Beyers; even though, the bass modded K702 is my favorite headphone. As they were mentioned, HD600/650 throw a relatively limited soundfield, IME, compared to the others. I own the Sennheisers, as well.


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> PS: OK, I admit it, I do read Stereophile (old habit). BUT, a review of the Little Dot MKIII by Sam Tellig some 6 years ago got me hooked on tube preamps... I don't think that I am a Stereophile elitist with a free hand me-down ss amp and $60 speakers LOL { I used to spend big bucks on Hi Fi equipment but that's another story as well. The upside is that after 20-30 years these items keep 1/3 of their value compared to when new. I know, just sold some oldies but goodies)




I've been a subscriber to S'phile for decades. Love it. Tellig, not so much.


----------



## JazzVinyl

decentlevi said:


> Another shout-out to @JazzVinyl
> and anybody too.
> 
> Just like to hand it to ya once more, your impressions on page 187 were trend-settingly good! If anyone knows if there is a _*best-of*_ section for Head-Fi, this would make a good addition.
> ...




Hello DecentLevi -

Gosh, thanks for the compliment on my assessment of the Elise teleporting me to the time and place the music I sampled was made. I used to play in bands, and a I can read music a little, I am always in awe of great musicians who make performing flawlessly look like falling off a log. I know how much work it takes to "make it look easy" when the pressure is on 

Regarding the DT-990's - I bought them when they were the current TOTL for Beyer-Dynamic. Mine are the 600 ohm model. I have never considered them lacking in soundstage in any way whatsoever. 

That said, we all hear differently. So maybe the Beyer line does not tickle your ear hairs the same way it does mine.

I do own Sennheider HD-580's with 99.8% pure silver cables. They are great, but I still prefer the DT-990's by a wide margin. Maybe the 600 ohm version is better...or again, maybe it's just the way my hearing is tuned.

I never deny anyone's choice in 'phones...if they are the ones that do it for you....I am all for it.

And regarding the C3gS's...I came to the Elise from a Little Dot MK IV which I had owned for some years and already had the C3gS's for the LD amp. H1 here, was kind enough to fabricate me a set of Elise adapters for the C3gS's before the Elise arrived...so I was ready to try them when the Elise made its way to me. 

Also, my amp was shipped minus any drivers. Lukasz contacted me and said they were having trouble obtaining the Tung-Sol drivers that met their specs. Asked if I wanted to wait until they did get some good ones in. I asked that the amp be sent minus any driver tubes, as I already had some here, that I could use. 

While I waited my Elise, (mine took 12 weeks) I had read here that the Mullard ECC31's were great in the Elise. I saw an Italian EBay ad for a pair of 1940's "6N7G / ECC31" for $62.00 shipped, from Italy, so I ordered them. 

I posted here that I ordered these 6N7G / ECC31's and the prevailing thought was that these were NOT the same as the ECC31 that everyone liked and that I might have been deceived by the seller.

I got the 6N7G's well before the Elise arrived and they sure were beautiful and I hoped they really were "ECC31 equivalents" and would sound as handsome as they looked.

Indeed I was treated to the sonic surprise of my life when I inserted the 6N7G's into the drivers seats of the Elise (which requires ECC31 to ECC33 adapters, which I also bought while I awaited the Elise's arrival). 
It was mind-blowing, 100% unexpected and wholeheartedly welcomed. I no longer desire any driver tubes to be in the driver sockets of the Elise, unless they are vintage - 6N7G's or ECC31's. The difference is NOT subtle and I am not a newbie to sound quality. I am an older person and I have been chasing the "sweet sounds" since I was 12 or 13 years old (a pretty good ways back in the rear view mirror) 

Also, one more thought DecentLevi...I am a "dyed In the wool" Jazz Lover. I do listen to other kinds of music but I rush back the nipple of my love...Jazz. My love of the DT-990's, the 6N7G's and the Elise and its holographic, totally believable sonic illusion...may only be valid because of my source material. Might be a complete train wreck in another Genre. 

I am a dedicated aficionado of the ECM jazz label. I have many hundreds of LP's and hundreds of CD's. I have loved the label and the musicians on that label since they first formed. I don't often run across others who love ECM the way I do. 

So again...it may just be me and my chosen musical engine now, that just happenes to fit the Genre that I love so much. 

Have a wonderful evening, DecentLevi...!!!

--JV--


----------



## Shaffer

aqsw said:


> Thanks guys, Got to start searching now!




FWIW, I would not suggest 6AS7GAs, as IME they lack quite a bit of resolution, though, their tonal balance is pleasing. 

They were all made by GE, regardless of brand. I'd be happy to sell you a BNIB NOS pair of Raytheons at an extremely reasonable price, should you decide to try some. I also have a NOS pair of GEs from '62, if you'd prefer those, but they do not have the original boxes.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:
			
		

> .
> 
> Given that the ECC31, FDD20 and 6N7G are performing very well in the Elise, I think the 5694 is well worth the time and relatively few dollars to give it a try. However, I thought that for once, I would wait for someone else to be first! So is anyone willing to give this a try?




Hello g...

Successor to my "Joybringers"?? 

Heck yeah I am game! Will follow your links tomorrow and get on it!!

Thanks!!!

--JV--


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Successor to my "Joybringers"??
> 
> Heck yeah I am game! Will follow your links tomorrow and get on it!!
> 
> Thanks!!!


 
  
 Great! And I am very curious to learn how the 5694 compares to your European 6N7G Joybringers!


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> Great! And I am very curious to learn how the 5694 compares to your European 6N7G Joybringers!


 
  
 Thanks for the heads up on these, g!!
  
 I could not wait...the adapters = ordered.
 The 5694's = ordered from Brent's site!
  
 GREAT STUFF!!!


----------



## gibosi

Wow! That was fast!


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> Wow! That was fast!




This inner-net is good for something, 'eh 

Now back to my Bass Clarinet solo...

The Joybringers love Bass Clarinet, too...it seems


----------



## hypnos1

aqsw said:


> Also a limit of about $400.00  for the 4 tubes.
> Thanks Guys


 
  
 Hi aqsw.
  
 Before JV found that his 6N7Gs are performing so wonderfully -  and given your generous budget! - I personally would have advised you go straight for the ECC31 drivers (adapters from Hong Kong) and the Chatham (or Tung Sol/Chatham) 6AS7G power tubes. This combination is truly remarkable in the Elise, and I have been running the 31s for a long time now without any problems whatsoever.
 But now, of course, those 6N7Gs (using the same adapters as for ECC31 - ie "to ECC33") must also be a good contender, and much cheaper. PLUS, gibosi has thrown yet another tube into the ring (bless him!!). So my advice would be wait and see how things develop with these tubes...if they do indeed approach the magic of the Mullard ECC31, I honestly believe they will beat ANY 6SN7 on the planet...as they do even my beloved C3g'S's.
  
  
  


jazzvinyl said:


> Hello H1...
> 
> A big THANK YOU, for getting the whole Elise party started!  From your knowledge and experience extending the will of the LD to beckon sonic purity, the the Elise was born!
> 
> ...


 
  
 And thank YOU, JV...I sure do feel like she's my surrogate child! (But am glad Lukasz is the mother, lol!!).
  
 Yes - the Feliks-Audio guys seem to have worked miracles with this baby. Despite Lukasz's reservations, their creation certainly does appear to be "Going where no-one else has gone before", lol!!...thankfully...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 And another thanks to you for braving the 6N7G...you have now introduced (yet) another option for people to consider - and one that is also very wallet friendly...what more can one ask?...(...that gibosi's latest introduction to the ring proves just as good,I suppose!!!).
  
 Re burn-in...basically EVERYTHING needs a good time to 'mature'...from tubes to the very resistors in the amp. There seems to be no hard and fast rule as to just how long each component requires, or the degree of difference made - some even question this process, but *WE* all know differently, lol!
  
 I personally have found some of the quickest (apart from certain Russian tubes!) and biggest changes have been with the drivers...and less so from the powers. But some drivers continue to improve well over an average 50hrs figure. So get those 6N7Gs in there, mon ami...your 'joybringers' too will benefit from a good burn-in, I'm quite sure!
  
 CHEERS!
 CJ


----------



## JazzVinyl

Buddy Guy says he is "Broke, Busted and Disgusted" but via the Joybringers...sure sounds like is having a great time, to me


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 Agree that the GE 6AS7GA do not have the ultimate resolution as for example the Chatham 6AS7G tubes, but they shine in tonality and timbre. With my C3g drivers I get plenty of resolution still, and I find that this combination is overall more pleasing to listen to for me - musical instead of analytical. Did I mention the huge, coherent sound stage?
  
 It all really comes down to personal preference - as they say, whatever floats your boat....There is no right or wrong; whatever makes you happy is right for you.
  
 Happy listening!


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> Hi Shaffer,
> 
> Agree that the GE 6AS7GA do not have the ultimate resolution as for example the Chatham 6AS7G tubes, but they shine in tonality and timbre. With my C3g drivers I get plenty of resolution still, and I find that this combination is overall more pleasing to listen to for me - musical instead of analytical. Did I mention the huge, coherent sound stage?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Advice to newbies:
  
 Mordy has this exactly correct,  There are lots of things that influence the way it will sound to you.  Your cans, your driver tubes, your power tubes, your source components, your preferred genre, your hearing, etc.
  
 Try and keep it low, at first, budget wise, buy reasonably priced tubes, and try them.  If you don't like them right away...give them some time to "settle in" before you judge.  Go slow, and enjoy the ride.


----------



## Shaffer

Whoa!

Let's stop this right now. This is a friendly thread. We do not takes sides, and we do not talk about our friends by implication. Please keep all this in perspective. "Advice to newbies" from someone who _just_ got his Elise. Precious.

Edit: Just so you understand, JV, we disagree all the time, however, this is a first in 191 pages where someone wrote anything similar to your comments.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> Whoa!
> 
> Let's stop this right now. This is a friendly thread. We do not takes sides, and we do not talk about our friends by implication. Please keep all this in perspective. "Advice to newbies" from someone who _just_ got his Elise. Precious.


 
  
 Hey I never meant to cause any grief, Shaff!!
  
 Not what I meant,  in the least,
  
 Sorry you were offended.  My sincere apologies!!
  
 Thought we were talking about that fellow who said he had a 400 tube budget and wanted to get the "known best"...I just felt like saying that lesser priced tubes can also be enjoyed...maybe he does not need to haul off and spend $400.00 right off the bat?
  
 .


----------



## Shaffer

Fair enough. Let's move on.


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> Hey I never meant to cause any grief, Shaff!!
> 
> Not what I meant,  in the least,
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi JV.
  
 Must admit, for what it's worth, I myself didn't see a dark side to your comments...but yes, we move on...


----------



## Shaffer

1. Just scored a pair of B&W DM302 mini monitors. They were originally given to a friend by his boss. My buddy didn't know what to do with them, so he just dropped them off at my front door. Looking at their specs, while not as sensitive as my horns, they may be able to be driven by a very small amp, at least to a satisfying level in a small room. Of course, I don't have a small room, nor do I have a SET I'd like to use, so I'm kinda contemplating wiring a set of adapters - TRS to speaker cable - and trying the Elise in this application. Figure, all I need is ~1w @ 8 Ohm. This project is not foremost on my audio schedule, considering the speakers were just sprung on me, but this could be interesting. 

If they were bi-wired, I could use each DV as a monoblock. Now, that would be cool. But, they're not, so their first taste of power will come from the House of Krell. Planning on wearing a helmet in hopes of avoiding pieces of the drivers breaking off and frying in the direction of the listening couch.

2. 6N7 tubes - What is their tonal balance like? Do they lean more towards tone or detail? Would one say they're relatively transparent?


----------



## aqsw

jazzvinyl said:


> Hey I never meant to cause any grief, Shaff!!
> 
> Not what I meant,  in the least,
> 
> ...


 
 I'm that guy. I didn't really want to get into rolling, but I just may buy some less expensive tubes and if I do find (my sound) for less, even better. The more knowledge from you guys, the better for me. I don't have to go out and purchase them. I believe I will still end up paying more than 400, but I will be able to change my sound according to the music and my taste at that time. Isn't that what tube rolling is all about anyways.
  
 I just don't want to get addicted, and end up with 5 figures in tubes!!


----------



## gibosi

aqsw said:


> I just don't want to get addicted, and end up with 5 figures in tubes!!


 
  
 Why not? I have over 1000 tubes and I assure you that vacuum tubes can indeed make you happy! lol


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Why not? I have over 1000 tubes and I assure you that vacuum tubes can indeed make you happy! lol




To paraphrase David Lee Roth, as he was talking about having money, "Tubes can't buy you happiness, but they can buy a boat big enough to sail right up next to it." lol


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> 2. 6N7 tubes - What is their tonal balance like? Do they lean more towards tone or detail? Would one say they're relatively transparent?


 
  
 Collectively, we have very little experience with these tubes, so the jury is still out....
  
 JV has a European pair of Visseaux 6N7, true manufacturer unknown, his "Joybringers". And I am pretty sure the FDD20 is a 6N7 but with a different heater and base. And I think H1 will agree with me that the FDD20 has a nicely balanced tonality with excellent clarity and transparency. But this is the extent of our experience. We need more people to take the plunge.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Collectively, we have very little experience with these tubes, so the jury is still out....
> 
> JV has a European pair of Visseaux 6N7, true manufacturer unknown, his "Joybringers". And I am pretty sure the FDD20 is a 6N7 but with a different heater and base. And I think H1 will agree with me that the FDD20 has a nicely balanced tonality with excellent clarity and transparency. But this is the extent of our experience. We need more people to take the plunge.




Well, ordered the adapters at the cost of having my wife not speaking to me. Oh, well. The next step are the tubes.

I figure this is worth a shot, at least cosmetically, and I can kinda swing it if I ignore my wife. If it doesn't work out for me, sonically, I'll just stick with what I know from now on. At the very least, it'll make a for a fun conversation piece, because I don't have enough of those as it is.

Edit: in hope of putting to rest some of my anxiety, let me check with you: I ordered ECC31 to 6SN7 adapters. Those are the right ones, correct?


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> Edit: in hope of putting to rest some of my anxiety, let me check with you: I ordered ECC31 to 6SN7 adapters. Those are the right ones, correct?


 
  
 Yes, ECC31 to 6SN7. You will also see ECC31 to ECC33. And 6N7 to 6SN7. These are all the same.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Yes, ECC31 to 6SN7. You will also see ECC31 to ECC33. And 6N7 to 6SN7. These are all the same.




Thank you. I feel a little less stressed.


----------



## aqsw

gibosi said:


> Why not? I have over 1000 tubes and I assure you that vacuum tubes can indeed make you happy! lol


 
 OMG , I have enough vices to spend my money on. Never thought it would be pieces of glass.


----------



## gibosi

aqsw said:


> OMG , I have enough vices to spend my money on. Never thought it would be pieces of glass.


 
  
 Well, as I tell my wife, they take up much less space than shoes and purses, and further, I can always sell them for at least as much I paid, and usually more.


----------



## Renderman

gibosi said:


> Well, as I tell my wife, they take up much less space than shoes and purses, and further, I can always sell them for at least as much I paid, and usually more.


 
 Haha! But do you... usually sell them?


----------



## hypnos1

shaffer said:


> 1. Just scored a pair of B&W DM302 mini monitors. They were originally given to a friend by his boss. My buddy didn't know what to do with them, so he just dropped them off at my front door. Looking at their specs, while not as sensitive as my horns, they may be able to be driven by a very small amp, at least to a satisfying level in a small room. Of course, I don't have a small room, nor do I have a SET I'd like to use, so I'm kinda contemplating wiring a set of adapters - TRS to speaker cable - and trying the Elise in this application. Figure, all I need is ~1w @ 8 Ohm. This project is not foremost on my audio schedule, considering the speakers were just sprung on me, but this could be interesting.
> 
> If they were bi-wired, I could use each DV as a monoblock. Now, that would be cool. But, they're not, so their first taste of power will come from the House of Krell. Planning on wearing a helmet in hopes of avoiding pieces of the drivers breaking off and frying in the direction of the listening couch.
> 
> 2. 6N7 tubes - What is their tonal balance like? Do they lean more towards tone or detail? Would one say they're relatively transparent?


 
 Hi 007.
  
 Assuming the 6N7G is pretty well the same as the FDD20, then I agree with gibosi 100%. Wonderful tonal balance, WITH fine detail (but not in the same sense as the C3g), clarity and transparency. You would not be disappointed, I'm sure...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...but a possible caveat below!
  


gibosi said:


> Collectively, we have very little experience with these tubes, so the jury is still out....
> 
> JV has a European pair of Visseaux 6N7, true manufacturer unknown, his "Joybringers". And I am pretty sure the FDD20 is a 6N7 but with a different heater and base. And I think H1 will agree with me that the FDD20 has a nicely balanced tonality with excellent clarity and transparency. But this is the extent of our experience. We need more people to take the plunge.


 
  
 Yes indeed, g...just as you say, re the FDD20 - and presumably the 6N7G (except there are different versions, and who knows what differences there may be in performance, lol?!).
  
 One thing I have noticed though - I went back to 2x ECC31s last night...and I have to say they have the edge over the 31/FDD20 combo (and not simply soundstage-wise...). This could of course just be down to the mixing of 2 different tubes, even though at first they seemed identical in sound. Will only be sure when I get 2x FDD20s together, naturally.
 This is getting even more interesting!...


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> 1. Just scored a pair of B&W DM302 mini monitors. They were originally given to a friend by his boss. My buddy didn't know what to do with them, so he just dropped them off at my front door. Looking at their specs, while not as sensitive as my horns, they may be able to be driven by a very small amp, at least to a satisfying level in a small room. Of course, I don't have a small room, nor do I have a SET I'd like to use, so I'm kinda contemplating wiring a set of adapters - TRS to speaker cable - and trying the Elise in this application. Figure, all I need is ~1w @ 8 Ohm. This project is not foremost on my audio schedule, considering the speakers were just sprung on me, but this could be interesting.
> 
> If they were bi-wired, I could use each DV as a monoblock. Now, that would be cool. But, they're not, so their first taste of power will come from the House of Krell. Planning on wearing a helmet in hopes of avoiding pieces of the drivers breaking off and frying in the direction of the listening couch.
> 
> 2. 6N7 tubes - What is their tonal balance like? Do they lean more towards tone or detail? Would one say they're relatively transparent?


 
 Cool set of speakers Shaff! And you can't beat that price/performance ratio 
  
 Really interested in this project, hope it turns out well. I have very efficient speakers and was contemplating doing this myself. Even if it did not work that well I could add some transformers to boost the signal. Maybe, just maybe I'll have some time soon to try something like this! I will follow your findings with interest and keep you posted on anything I find.
  
 Good luck!


----------



## gibosi

renderman said:


> Haha! But do you... usually sell them?


 
  
 Not often... But once in a while I do. And now that you mention it, I have several hundred Little Dot tubes and I am wondering why on earth I still have them? lol


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> 2. 6N7 tubes - What is their tonal balance like? Do they lean more towards tone or detail? Would one say they're relatively transparent?


 
  
 I am going to say my early (1940's) lean towards detail? They sound clearer than 6SN7, you seem to be closer the the source of the music. Think "close miking" like the technique used on many Steely Dan LP's.  I hear "harmonics" in strings, and other minute details that happened in the room where the recording was made that are just barely heard on 6SN7's (that I own).   I think I am ready to say they might be a tad bass shy compared to 6SN7's as well.  But not by a tremendous amount.
  
 The 6n7 has been around a long time and had several different tube styles.  While all are said to be "electrically equivalent", I found the older large glass tube, (bottom D getter) to sound much different from the metal can (and latest) version.
 I thought the metal can (latest) version sounded like the C3g (which is "different" and possibly "better" than your average 6SN7), but it was not the 'Joybringer' sound of the larger glass envelope of the 1940's edition.
 Also have a pair that are the same style/look as the 6SN7 (see pictures in link below) but have not listened to them, yet.
  
 Here is someone's write up on 6N7's:
  
http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2011/02/tube-of-month-6n7.html
  
  
 ..


----------



## JazzVinyl

6N7 tube styles:

  
 I think my "Joybringers" look most like the ones that are 2nd from left.
 Have the smoked glass version too (not listened to yet).
 And have the metal envelope version (far right) that I thought reminded me of C3g's


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> I am going to say my early (1940's) lean towards detail? They sound clearer than 6SN7, you seem to be closer the the source of the music. Think "close miking" like the technique used on many Steely Dan LP's.  I hear "harmonics" in strings, and other minute details that happened in the room where the recording was made that are just barely heard on 6SN7's (that I own).   I think I am ready to say they might be a tad bass shy compared to 6SN7's as well.  But not by a tremendous amount.
> 
> The 6n7 has been around a long time and had several different tube styles.  While all are said to be "electrically equivalent", I found the older large glass tube, (bottom D getter) to sound much different from the metal can (and latest) version.
> I thought the metal can (latest) version sounded like the C3g (which is "different" and possibly "better" than your average 6SN7), but it was not the 'Joybringer' sound of the larger glass envelope of the 1940's edition.
> ...




Thanks very much for the comments, JV. I might just get a pair. Which? That's still undecided. Now I'm curious about the metal can version, as well.


----------



## Suuup

Just as I cleaned my desk to prepare a spot for the Elise, Lukasz sends me an email with a tracking number. Excited!


----------



## Shaffer

suuup said:


> Just as I cleaned my desk to prepare a spot for the Elise, Lukasz sends me an email with a tracking number. _Excited_!




Sure, getting closer and closer. Wait 'till you hear it.


----------



## aqsw

Ordered, Im in.!!


----------



## JazzVinyl

suuup said:


> Just as I cleaned my desk to prepare a spot for the Elise, Lukasz sends me an email with a tracking number. Excited!


 
  
 Congrats Suuup!
  
 Your gonna love 'er!!
  
 .


----------



## JazzVinyl

aqsw said:


> Ordered, Im in.!!


 
  
 Sweet!  Good choice!  Yeah!!


----------



## Shaffer

Just asked for on invoice on a pair of 6N7Gs. Fingers crossed.


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> I am going to say my early (1940's) lean towards detail? They sound clearer than 6SN7, you seem to be closer the the source of the music. Think "close miking" like the technique used on many Steely Dan LP's.  I hear "harmonics" in strings, and other minute details that happened in the room where the recording was made that are just barely heard on 6SN7's (that I own).   *I think I am ready to say they might be a tad bass shy compared to 6SN7's as well.  But not by a tremendous amount.*
> 
> The 6n7 has been around a long time and had several different tube styles.  While all are said to be "electrically equivalent", I found the older large glass tube, (bottom D getter) to sound much different from the metal can (and latest) version.
> I thought the metal can (latest) version sounded like the C3g (which is "different" and possibly "better" than your average 6SN7), but it was not the 'Joybringer' sound of the larger glass envelope of the 1940's edition.
> ...


 
 Ah, JV...looks like we have quite a big difference to the Mullard ECC31 after all - the bass on these is phenomenal, to put it mildly! Not just in extension, but also solidity, detail, energy and sheer impact...truly staggering. So food for thought...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  


suuup said:


> Just as I cleaned my desk to prepare a spot for the Elise, Lukasz sends me an email with a tracking number. Excited!


 
 All this excitement...getting too much for me, lol! (Not really!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...). Hope you've polished that desk as well! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


aqsw said:


> Ordered, Im in.!!


 
  
 You know you just HAD to, mi amigo!!... Another lucky owner...


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Ah, JV...looks like we have quite a big difference to the Mullard ECC31 after all - the bass on these is phenomenal, to put it mildly! Not just in extension, but also solidity, detail, energy and sheer impact...truly staggering. So food for thought...


 
  
 I wonder if my Russian Power tubes not being fully burned in, has anything to do with this?  And I wish I did have a pair of ECC31's to compare!!!!
  
  
 Ugh 
  
 .


----------



## Shaffer

As much as bass quality and its overall scope differs with various 6SN7s, I don't see how the same wouldn't be true for 6N7Gs. I guess I'm trying to say that I'm hoping my pair isn't lean.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> As much as bass quality and its overall scope differs with various 6SN7s, I don't see how the same wouldn't be true for 6N7Gs. I guess I'm trying to say that I'm hoping my pair isn't lean.


 

 Maybe they are not so lean...maybe the last thing I had heard was a bass lean recording and that impression stuck.  Was just listening to a Bass Players album, and I was impressed by the Bass response.
  
 What brand did you buy, Shaff? 
  
 Looking forward to your assessment of 6N7G's...
  
  
 .
 .


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> Maybe they are not so lean...maybe the last thing I had heard was a bass lean recording and that impression stuck.  Was just listening to a Bass Players album, and I was impressed by the Bass response.
> 
> *What brand did you buy, Shaff? *




An educated guess says they're likely re-labeled Sylvanias. Do you know approximately when the production of the ST-envelope 6N7 ended?



> Looking forward to your assessment of 6N7G's...




So am I! With a rectifier due to arrive and now this, I can hardly contain the excitement. No joke.

I did finally score a couple of pairs of tubes that I wanted for the WA6. Bought them from the same place as Woo does. Gotta love wholesale pricing. Once they get here, which could be as early as Saturday, and then the GZ34, I can finally start to seriously listen to the amp.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> An educated guess says they're likely re-labeled Sylvanias. Do you know approximately when the production of the ST-envelope 6N7 ended?


 
  
 So you bought a pair of the 'GM' brand on Ebay?  I bought a pair too, they are on the way.  Date code I looked up, indicated 1972 for the pair I bought, no idea when they quit making the big bottles.
  
 .


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> So you bought a pair of the 'GM' brand on Ebay?  I bought a pair too, they are on the way.  Date code I looked up, indicated 1972 for the pair I bought, no idea when they quit making the big bottles.
> 
> .




I didn't get the GM-brand, though I normally prefer tubes aimed at automotive applications, like Delco and some Philco. It's my belief those tubes were chosen for car radios, and, by implication better audio performance not unlike Baldwin tubes, as an example. No idea if that's actually the case.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> I didn't get the GM-brand, though I normally prefer tubes aimed at automotive applications, like Delco and some Philco. It's my belief those tubes were chosen for car radios, and, by implication better audio performance not unlike Baldwin tubes, as an example. No idea if that's actually the case.




Hmmm, I am afraid I don't follow the logic that 'designed for automotive duty' would relate to better audio performance. 

Seems like designed for 'rougher living conditions' would make more sense? 

.


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> Hmmm, I am afraid I don't follow the logic that 'designed for automotive duty' would relate to better audio performance.
> 
> Seems like designed for 'rougher living conditions' would make more sense?
> 
> .




Now I'm confused. 

Forgive me, you don't understand how tubes chosen for car radios can be capable of lower noise, etc? 

Incidentally, this isn't unlike locatal-based tubes that were developed, in part, to resist their susceptibility to RFI and vibration.


----------



## mordy

HI All,
  
 I once read about some Russian expert on vacuum tubes who showed that you could rejuvenate worn out tubes by applying various electrical currents to the the tube, but I did not come across this information in other sources. (Perhaps this article was in connection with Acoustic Research.) Apparently this works if you know what to do and have the right equipment.
  
 So here is your chance:
  





 \
 This pair of poor testing GEC 1834A/6AS7 tubes are available for $49 incl shipping:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-GEC-6AS7-TUBES-6080-6AS7-7236-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-421A-/262054131988?hash=item3d03a4b914


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> HI All,
> 
> I once read about some Russian expert on vacuum tubes who showed that you could rejuvenate worn out tubes by applying various electrical currents to the the tube, but I did not come across this information in other sources. (Perhaps this article was in connection with Acoustic Research.) Apparently this works if you know what to do and have the right equipment.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Won't that be a great trick, if it were possible!!!  You could get RICH 
  
 Saw another single GEC that measured LOW for $29.00...!!!
  
 .


----------



## JazzVinyl

Did a comparison of the 'Joybringer' (vintage 6N7G's) to the C3gS on the Elise: Joybringer in one driver socket, C3gS in the other driver Socket
  
 Sampled a known high quality ECM recording.
  
 ===
 Note: I was not overly impressed with the C3gS in the Elise when it was brand new.  Sounded good,  but not the
 'magic' I was used to, in the LD MK IV.
 ===
  
 Now that the Elise has it's first 50 hours in it, the C3gS sound has much improved.  I assume as the amp burns in more it will continue to improve.
  
 The Vintage 6N7G and the C3gS have very similar gains, so the volume is the same on both sides of the headphone (DT-990)
 this made it easier to do this comparison because the old speaker selling trick of "the loudest one sounds the best" was not
 involved.
  
 I think the C3gS and vintage 6N7G sound similar in presence and clarity. I think the extreme top end in the C3gS sounds "metallic" compared to the vintage 6N7G.  Cymbals sound like the metal they are made from, you notice this more than the shimmer of the sound they make. 
  
 On the vintage 6N7G side, you don't hear this metallic sound you hear a more lush sizzle, no metallic grain.
  
 The C3gS is not flat across the frequency response.  There is an area in the lower midrange and another area at the upper portion of the midrange that
 drop in volume compared to the rest of the audio spectrum. I think this contributes to the "big sound stage" impression of the C3gS's.
  
 The Vintage 6N7G do not exhibit these traits, and does many of the things the C3gS does so well, but sounds more linear in freq response top to bottom and definitely does not have the "metal ringing" sensation that you hear in the C3gS at certain high frequencies.
  
 The C3gS is a very wonderful tube, it sounds really great, with a tremendously deep and wide sound stage (think it does have an advantage here over the Vintage 6N7G).
 The front to back (deep) portion of the sound stage is the most evident difference.  The Vintage 6N7G hot being as deep contributes to it's illusion that
 you are "closer" to the musicians.
  
 The C3gS also pushes a few frequencies out further, left to right (width) than the Vintage 6N7G's but only some frequencies and
 only moves them out about 3 feet.  This again is probably due to the suck-out of a couple of frequencies in the C3gS...you then 'notice' the surrounding frequencies more than on the vintage 6N7G's.
  
 The C3gS may have the lowest of it's lows a tad more prominent than the Vintage 6N7G's.  The difference here is not a lot in volume, but there is something different, more distinct, about this range in the C3gS and it's better here, in my listening experience,  YMMV.
  
 Both tubes sound gorgeous in the Elise and either set will please.  I think both sets surpass the 6SN7's (that I own) for believability and overall presentation of the music.
  
 The vintage 6N7G's sound more....ahem "Analog" to me than the C3gS's.  But the C3gS's are nothing to sneeze at,  and are special in their presentation.  The biggest C3gS downside being the "metallic" ringing that comes to visit in the upper end of the frequency range.
  
 The Vintage 6N7S may be cheaper, for the pair, plus 'commonly avail adapters' makes them a good buy in the juicy land of tube purchases.  They smooth out the couple of tiny rough edges the C3gS has, and presents a very enjoyable, but different, sound stage experience than the C3gS's.
  
 One other BIG difference...the C3gS's run nice and cool and the Vintage 6N7G's are blow torches.  They run really hot, don't touch.
  
 Also tried this with my more modern 'Gray Glass' 6N7 - nothing special heard here, in my copy.  And with the metal envelope GN7, it does sound similar to the C3gS in a rather fat section of the midrange, but the C3gS is much better at both ends of the audio frequency range.  Neither of the more modern 6N7's sound as nice as the big coke bottle shaped vintage 6N7G "Joybringers".
  
  
 Cheers...
  
 --JV--
  
 .


----------



## Shaffer

Nice write-up!

ATM, my Elise is shod with early production 7N7s and a pair of JAN 6AS7G Chathams in the back. Come to think of it, that what I run ~80% of the time. If I didn't have the pair of DVs to play with, I'd most likely change tube a lot more often. One DV is almost always lit with a medium bottle JAN 7N7 (or a 7AF7) and a Chatham 6AS7G in the back, and the other constantly sees different combos, sometimes a few time a day. Unless I'm comparing the small driver tubes I've been playing with. Then, I try to make those tubes the only variable.


----------



## mordy

Hi JV,
  
 Very interesting - thanks for your in depth comparison. BUT, IMHO the Elise will continue to change and improve over the next 100 hours. Personally, I found that my initial impressions at the 50 hour mark changed a lot after full burn in at 150 hours, and I would not be surprised if the C3gS tubes will sound better after full burn in of the Elise. (Everything else will also sound better.)
  
 Patience, and I am sure u r in for surprises, all for the better!
  
 [I know, I sound like hypnos 1, but I can only report on what I hear LOL]


----------



## UntilThen

Nicely done JV that's a lot of work you've put in. Makes me want to dash home to make sure I receive the C3gs and 6N7Gs and ECC31s with open arms. 
  
 I think you should get a pair of ECC31s to complete the comparisons. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 I'm concerned about the '..runs really hot don't touch' statement on the 6N7G.


----------



## UntilThen

renderman said:


> I have it on good authority UntilThen has almost the exact same set of tubes coming to him!  (6N8S)


 

 Thanks Ren for the additional Russian tubes. What a surprise, very kind of you. Means more tubes for me to play with.


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> I wonder if my Russian Power tubes not being fully burned in, has anything to do with this?  And I wish I did have a pair of ECC31's to compare!!!!
> 
> 
> Ugh
> ...


 
  
 Hi JV.
  
 Those Russians will tighten somewhat in the bass, but I don't recall them developing much greater extension over time (that was a LONG time ago now, lol!.).
  
 And I do believe I now have further confirmation of my suspicions - I've finally managed to get the two FDD20s in bed together...after managing to rescue #2 from almost certain death whilst soldering on the new wires! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







.
 Although not properly indicative, I'm basing my very early impressions on how the 2 ECC31s sounded at the same stage : the main difference is indeed the depth and impact of the bass - the 31s are tangibly greater in both respects (too early to assess detail and control...). But this is not actually being fair on the FDD20s - the bass is still extremely impressive compared to all the other drivers I have used, either in the Elise or my LD MKIV SE.
  
 Again, time will alter this next aspect to a good degree, but the presentation would certainly appear to be moving in a more 'closed in' direction (not in any really negative way however), compared to the 31s at this stage. But perhaps they will need longer than the Mullards to open up more...
  
 Clarity and detail look to be excellent, and the overall delivery is once again VERY dynamic.
  
 It's too early to assess in more detail, but at the moment I think I can safely say these have no equal at the price...or a great deal higher! They are pretty well guaranteed to end up outperforming ALL the other drivers I have known...except the ECC31s! And this includes the excellent C3g'S'...on which I must congratulate you on your own assessment, JV. You have explained in detail what gives this tube its special quality...and highlighted its only real (posssible) achilles heel - that treble! HOWEVER...in some systems this can actually prove to be a life-saver - if other elements are contributing to a rather flat, lifeless, lacklustre sound, this tube could prove to be ideal. The clarity, resolution and 'air' of the C3g has few rivals - of that I am fairly sure (and as mordy says, this aspect  - among others - will tone down somewhat over time. I suspect that sometimes the problem here is that the C3g resolves TOO much treble detail - in a SS way, rather than a traditional 'tube-smoothing' way?).
  
 Now all this is with respect to the FDD20...and we are only _assuming_ other 6N7G-types may have similar presentations. But of course this may not in fact be the case. We shall need more enterprising Elise owners to give them a try, so that a proper evaluation of this family can be gained...and so A BIG PLEA I send to you all out there - these tubes are a must-try IMHO!!
  
 EDIT...forgot to show how she looks with the 2x FDD20s in place...so  :
  

  


shaffer said:


> As much as bass quality and its overall scope differs with various 6SN7s, I don't see how the same wouldn't be true for 6N7Gs. I guess I'm trying to say that I'm hoping my pair isn't lean.


 
  
 Hi S.
  
 My gut feeling is that this family is far from lean in its presentation...so I'm sure you need have no fears on this score, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And I really look forward to your own impressions, as I do JV's on other versions of this tube...


----------



## JazzVinyl

> Originally Posted by *mordy* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> I once read about some Russian expert on vacuum tubes who showed that you could rejuvenate worn out tubes by applying various electrical currents to the the tube, but I did not come across this information in other sources. (Perhaps this article was in connection with Acoustic Research.) Apparently this works if you know what to do and have the right equipment.
> 
> So here is your chance:
> ...


 
  
 Possible instructions to fix 'em!!:
  
http://antiqueradios.com/chrs/journal/rejuvenation.html
  
  
 .


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Hi JV.
> 
> Although not properly indicative, I'm basing my very early impressions on how the 2 ECC31s sounded at the same stage : the main difference is indeed the depth and impact of the bass - the 31s are tangibly greater in both respects (too early to assess detail and control...). But this is not actually being fair on the FDD20s - the bass is still extremely impressive compared to all the other drivers I have used, either in the Elise or my LD MKIV SE.


 
   
Roger that, Colin!!

  
 Now here is THE question...is there a Driver tube that could be selected,  that would fatten up that bottom?
  
 .


----------



## mordy

At least I am vindicated in posting this LOL! Anybody knows anybody who can do this or tried it?
  
 Here is more info:
  
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/rejuvenation_of_exhausted_vacuum_tubes.html
  
 and more:
  
 http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-462935.html
  
 Don't have more time now, but here is more:
  
 https://www.google.com/search?q=Rejuvenating+vacuum+tubes&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
  
 So the question is: Can we make the $49 GEC tubes into $499 tubes?


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Nicely done JV that's a lot of work you've put in. Makes me want to dash home to make sure I receive the C3gs and 6N7Gs and ECC31s with open arms.
> 
> I think you should get a pair of ECC31s to complete the comparisons.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello UntilThen...!!
  
 You are on track to have the ECC31's and the 6N7G's!!  You may be the one, who gets to to the big comparison!!!  All 2 sets you have coming are superb and you will have a lot of fun with them!
  
 About the 'runs hot' - I think they run just a tad cooler than the Russian drivers...but yeah, they burn bright and put off a pretty good amount of heat.  Not so much that it will burn your house down, though 
  
 .


----------



## gibosi

Very, very off-topic.... I am running Windows 7 and it keeps asking me to upgrade to Windows 10. Has anyone done this? And survived? lol


----------



## UntilThen

I went from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10 but got the low on memory message after a few days. I have 8Gb of memory on the nearly new PC. I've since switch back to Windows 8.1 again by doing a complete re-install.


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> Hello UntilThen...!!
> 
> You are on track to have the ECC31's and the 6N7G's!!  You may be the one, who gets to to the big comparison!!!  All 2 sets you have coming are superb and you will have a lot of fun with them!
> 
> ...


 
 JV I can't help it but this might be my review....
  

  
 that prompted the famous line "I'll have what she's having".


----------



## mordy

Hi G,
  
 Have a Win 7 computer and installed Win10 but some of my programs did not work or disappeared so i went back to Win 7.
  
 BTW, a computer programmer friend told me to wait until Service Pack 1 comes out; there are always bugs and you have a year to decide if you want the free installation.


----------



## Suuup

gibosi said:


> Very, very off-topic.... I am running Windows 7 and it keeps asking me to upgrade to Windows 10. Has anyone done this? And survived? lol


 
 I'll wait until they've ironed out the kinks. It normally takes them a while. It would also be better to make a complete re-install of Windows 10 instead of 'upgrading'.
  


mordy said:


> Hi G,
> 
> Have a Win 7 computer and installed Win10 but some of my programs did not work or disappeared so i went back to Win 7.
> 
> BTW, a computer programmer friend told me to wait until Service Pack 1 comes out; there are always bugs and you have a year to decide if you want the free installation.


 
 I'm studying computer science, and I'd recommend the same. 
  
 -------------
  
 When you're testing new tubes, what music do you listen to? I'm having a hard time. If I just play random music from Spotify, I often get songs that aren't high quality. If I have a free afternoon, I like just sifting through new songs and finding high quality ones, no matter the genre. There's something so satisfying about finding a well recorded song. When I'm testing new equipment, I'm afraid to use songs I know really well, as I might just be used to the way it's played on my current setup, which might cloud my judgement. Hmm..


----------



## gibosi

Thanks for all the good advice! So for sure, I will at least wait for service pack 1. But as my pc is several years old with only 4GB, it might be best to just stay at Win7 until I buy a new PC....


----------



## gibosi

suuup said:


> When you're testing new tubes, what music do you listen to? I'm having a hard time. If I just play random music from Spotify, I often get songs that aren't high quality. If I have a free afternoon, I like just sifting through new songs and finding high quality ones, no matter the genre. There's something so satisfying about finding a well recorded song. When I'm testing new equipment, I'm afraid to use songs I know really well, as I might just be used to the way it's played on my current setup, which might cloud my judgement. Hmm..


 
  
 I stay with music I know very well. This allows me to understand how the new tubes compare with others. Is there more clarity? Detail? What about the bass? mids? treble? etc. And do I like the new tubes better? Or not?
  
 So I would suggest you put together a standard playlist of songs you know well and enjoy listening to (because you will be listening to these songs a lot! lol) with a nice variety of music and genres: acoustic, vocal, live, studio, etc....


----------



## JazzVinyl

suuup said:


> When you're testing new tubes, what music do you listen to? I'm having a hard time. If I just play random music from Spotify, I often get songs that aren't high quality. If I have a free afternoon, I like just sifting through new songs and finding high quality ones, no matter the genre. There's something so satisfying about finding a well recorded song. When I'm testing new equipment, I'm afraid to use songs I know really well, as I might just be used to the way it's played on my current setup, which might cloud my judgement. Hmm..




I also listen to music I know well. Tubes have "personalities" and every new tube will let you hear a slightly different take on familiar music. 

I almost only do ALAC, the Apples lossless format. I have bought some 256k MP3's and I have digitally recorded a few hundred LP's (of my approx 2,000 LP's). 

I am not very familiar with the online streaming services. Know they are good but so much out there these days..it's almost mind blowing. I usually hear new artists in the car, listening to FM radio.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> Thanks for all the good advice! So for sure, I will at least wait for service pack 1. But as my pc is several years old with only 4GB, it might be best to just stay at Win7 until I buy a new PC....


 

 That's one question i was asking myself im still running Vista its 8 years old and some say WINDOWS 7 is good but what is best for audio will also upgrade in a near future


----------



## Suuup

mikelap said:


> That's one question i was asking myself im still running Vista its 8 years old and some say WINDOWS 7 is good but what is best for audio will also upgrade in a near future


 
 From an audio perspective, the only difference between one OS to another is delay, and even this would probably be miniscule (if not the same even). Other than that, there's absolutely no difference, as long as you can play the file (if you were running some obscure OS that didn't support specific file formats). 
  
 Tl;dr It doesn't make a difference.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Be sure to read every word of the "I agree" user agreement if you "upgrade" to Windoze 10...


----------



## UntilThen

ALAC on iMac for me. If Windows I'd prefer Windows 7 or 8.1 over Vista.

Some fav CDs of mine for testing:-
Famous Blue Raincoat by Jennifer Warnes
Wallflower by Diana Krall
Dark Side of the Moon by Pink Floyd
Live in Zagreb by Randy Crawford
Closer To The Music Vol 1
1812 Overture Tchaikovsky


----------



## gibosi

I've been rolling rectifiers this evening, and have been listening to these and others....
  
 Marigolden by Field Report
 Unplugged (Remastered) by Eric Clapton
 Come Away with Me by Norah Jones
 Currency of Man by Melody Gardot
 Let it Die by Feist


----------



## Shaffer

I've been rolling tubes, as well, comparing some of the small drivers in the DVs. 

Typically I don't use test tracks, with the exception of side-2 of _Rhythm of the Saints_, which is very helpful with speaker setup. Normally, I do extended auditions, where a given piece is listened to for at least a week and then a switch takes place. As I've been kinda overwhelmed with amps and tubes lately, I had to find a quicker way to identify the non-starters. The answer? This! The quickest way I've found to identify midrange colorations. And, it's free if you want it to be. So, hit the download button and give it shot. Make sure to select the FLAC file.


----------



## Renderman

suuup said:


> When you're testing new tubes, what music do you listen to? I'm having a hard time. If I just play random music from Spotify, I often get songs that aren't high quality. If I have a free afternoon, I like just sifting through new songs and finding high quality ones, no matter the genre. There's something so satisfying about finding a well recorded song. When I'm testing new equipment, I'm afraid to use songs I know really well, as I might just be used to the way it's played on my current setup, which might cloud my judgement. Hmm..


 
 That's nice to read  I do the exact same thing with Spotify! It makes it so easy to discover new music. I also use soundcloud for this sometimes.
  
 I do agree with gibosi however, one should have a playlist of 'songs to test by'  Mine has very different tracks, most focussed on specific charactaristics of the sound. A very well recorded track to judge soundstage and spatial presentation, one for bass response, another to get a feel for the vocals, etc.
  
 You will get to know these songs intimately and all their subtleties, this will allow you to asses the different setups (amplifiers, tubes, dacs, headphones) in much more detail. So as gibosi suggests, you better make sure they are songs you enjoy listening to 
  
 All that being said... above all, just enjoy the music!


----------



## SearchOfSub

Can anyone tell me where I can order this and how long and price. All black unit. (Looks damn good.) Also is this running Class A and can it handle low impedence headphones?


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> I've been rolling rectifiers this evening, and have been listening these and others....
> 
> Marigolden by Field Report
> Unplugged (Remastered) by Eric Clapton
> ...


 
 That Clapton unplugged is epic!


----------



## gibosi

whirlwind said:


> That Clapton unplugged is epic!


 
  
 Yes it is! There is so much going on with acoustic instruments on what sounds to be a wooden stage in front of a live audience. When I make any changes, it is the first album I go to.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> Yes it is! There is so much going on with acoustic instruments on what sounds to be a wooden stage in front of a live audience. When I make any changes, it is the first album I go to.





I love ec unplugged, and his double 24 Nights, album, also great.


----------



## gibosi

And I just want to remind folks that tubes with loose bases can be great buys. I was so blown away by the Cossor GZ37 that I wanted to get one more for a backup. Found this tube outside of eBay for a very good price. However, the glue bond had completely failed. The only thing holding the base to the bottle was the soldered wires. The vendor was using the fat pink rubber band to hold it together, but still, too wobbly and fragile for daily use.
  
 The first thing I did was grab two long rubber bands and use them to hold the bottle firmly to the base. And only then did I plug it into the amp to make sure it was OK. Since rubber is an insulator, no worries about shorting pins, and the rubber bands are thin enough that the tube could be seated firmly into the socket. But of course, I wanted to make a more durable repair. For this, I used clear finger nail polish. I applied it to the glass-base junction and then put the tube aside to allow the polish to harden. And it is as good as new!


----------



## Suuup

gibosi said:


> Yes it is! There is so much going on with acoustic instruments on what sounds to be a wooden stage in front of a live audience. When I make any changes, it is the first album I go to.


 
 It really is a masterpiece.


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> Roger that, Colin!!
> 
> Now here is THE question...is there a Driver tube that could be selected,  that would fatten up that bottom?
> 
> .


 
  
 Hi JV.
  
 Hopefully I have some good news for your 'oldie' 6N7Gs...with any luck they might echo my FDD20s - happily (and I should have known better, lol!), with a few more 5 hr sessions on them they are coming along VERY nicely indeed : bass is developing in both extension and impact. Detail is also becoming more apparent. And soundstage is opening up a treat...they are beginning to run at the Mullard's heels!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








...they are just taking a bit longer to catch up!!
  
 So I can only hope your joybringers develop in the same way...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


searchofsub said:


> Can anyone tell me where I can order this and how long and price. All black unit. (Looks damn good.) Also is this running Class A and can it handle low impedence headphones?


 
  
 Hi SOS, and welcome...
  
 My best advice would be to email Lukasz at  :  info@feliksaudio.pl  
 He will give you all the info you look for.
  
 The stock price is $649 + shipping...but if you want to use your own tubes, just ask for a price without them.
 The Elise has been configured to handle low-z cans better than most OTL amps normally do - and Shaffer has had good results with such.
  
 Wait time has recently been 7 to 8 weeks due to delays/holidays, but best to check the current status with Lukasz.
  
 Best wishes,
  
 CJ


----------



## tjw321

Sorry about the rambling below, but I really owe this thread a few posts, and this is the first chance I've had to post for a while....
  
 I seem to be cursed when it comes to getting some quality time with my Elise. Firstly, I lose my job the day I was going to place my order  - and end up ordering it just before the price increase, with fingers crossed that the interview I had that morning went as well as I hoped (it did, fortunately). And now I've broken my foot, thereby disrupting my plans to make a proper space for the Elise where my “nice” gear sits.
 The net result of all this, is that I feel derelict in my posting to this thread, and I have only had a few hours listening with the Elise - and then only with my portable sources (yes, H1, the X3 has been pressed into emergency service again!).
 With my new job, I have a much longer commute, and much longer hours, so I’m not going to have enough time for any serious tube-rolling. Therefore I’ve elected to stick (so far) with just trying driver tubes which are currently in production. I have the stock drivers, some Tung Sol re-issues and some Electro-Harmonix (not the gold ones).
 I won an ifi micro iCAN in a forum competition and I liked it so much that I got a complete ifi stack to celebrate when my new job was confirmed (as you can see in my avatar). I got a bit worried at this point that the Elise would end up disappointing because I *really* like the ifi, and also because ifi goes to extraordinary lengths to suppress noise - to the extent that even the power supply has active noise cancellation built-in! Any hum or static from the Elise was going to be a black mark against it. My Little Dot has never been noisy, but silent it was not! So I don’t really expect a black background from a tube amp. Well, when I turned on the Elise, I thought it was broken - the silence was deafening! No hum, no static, nothing. So, step one passed 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
 Next, how does it sound? Well, at first listen, with the stock drivers, it was a little disappointing - after the high expectations and the long wait to get it. There was nothing wrong with it (apart from the usual slight roughness around about the frequency where you get sibilance - which I always get with unburnt in tubes) but it wasn’t *special*. Kind of like the O2 - totally competent but lacking in “magic” or character (in the case of the O2 this is a good thing, but it isn’t what I want from my tubes!). I’m pretty sure that some burn-in will bring out the magic in the stock tubes, but I had the Tung Sols already waiting. Time to pop them in.
 w00t! Magic in abundance! The bottom end filled out, and so did the “tubiness” I love. My AKG K702s never sounded so good!
 A day or so later, the EHs arrived. And, again, magic aplenty . The K702s became a bit too bright, in comparison, but my HD600s were perfect.
 So, Tung Sol for the AKGs, and Electro-Harmonix for the Senns. I couldn’t be happier 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Both sets of tubes have the lush mids that I look for from a tube amp, and both have a good solid punch to the bass without any leakage into the mids - another thing I look for. But the EHs are more forward at the top end - which suits the Senns, but are a bit much with the naturally brighter AKGs. I slightly prefer the Tung Sols overall, because they amplify a little less, and that puts the volume control of the Elise more into the sweet spot at the volumes I listen at. Most people listen louder than I do, so YMMV. Also, I plan to use the AKGs more with the Elise, and the Senns with the ifi, so the synergy with the headphones works a little better.
 Bear in mind that *nothing* is burned in yet, and that my source was just my, albeit very good, portable player, and things can only get better.
 The really good news, is that the Elise can sound fantastic without exotic tubes. Anyone with limited time, or a limited budget, will still get excellent results with the Tung Sols (which are now the stock drivers, I believe). And the EHs also give excellent results so for very little extra expenditure you can get two amps for the price of one (signature-wise).
  
 Edit: Just found this comparison which includes the TSs and EHs. I pretty much agree with everything he says (but in the context of the Elise), except that I liked the EHs a *little* better (with the right headphones): http://singaporehifi.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/6sn7-comparisons.html


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Hi JV.
> 
> Hopefully I have some good news for your 'oldie' 6N7Gs...with any luck they might echo my FDD20s - happily (and I should have known better, lol!), with a few more 5 hr sessions on them they are coming along VERY nicely indeed : bass is developing in both extension and impact. Detail is also becoming more apparent. And soundstage is opening up a treat...they are beginning to run at the Mullard's heels!...:wink_face:  ...they are just taking a bit longer to catch up!!
> 
> So I can only hope your joybringers develop in the same way...




Hello H1 -

I think the Joybringers are the kind of tube that reveals just what the source has to offer. If I listen to a recording that has great bass, that is what I get. If the original recording was lacking in bass punch, the Joybringers deliver the news.

I have done some more comparisons to C3gS, with both drivers C3gS and then Joybringers, in my system, I definitely prefer the Joybringers. They are better in this amp, to my ears. 

Monday I will get the 2nd pair of 6N7G's and we will see if all of them in the ST envelope 6N7G's are good, or if my French made pair just happen to be special. 

I am loving my Joybringers and they have renewed my music collection. Selections that I barely glossed over before...I now am transported, enter the room at the place and time the recording was made, and sit amongst the musicians. I way better understand why and how the recording was made. the original motivation and inspiration comes through.

Again, the Elise, with Joybringers drivers, is not a headphone amp. It is a spiritual transportation device that picks you up and and takes you to the place, time and very moment that the recording was made.

Could not be more pleased. Hate it when I have to 'come back' from my musical excursions. 

Cheers

--JV--


----------



## gibosi

Speaking of music, just discovered David Gilmour's new album, "Rattle That Lock". As one would expect, there definite hints of Pink Floyd and I'm liking it a lot.


----------



## JazzVinyl

tjw321 said:


> Sorry about the rambling below, but I really owe this thread a few posts, and this is the first chance I've had to post for a while....
> 
> Edit: Just found this comparison which includes the TSs and EHs. I pretty much agree with everything he says (but in the context of the Elise), except that I liked the EHs a *little* better (with the right headphones): http://singaporehifi.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/6sn7-comparisons.html




Very nice post tjw321..

So glad for you on the new job. Congrats! Long commute stinks, but better to have a job than not, 'eh?
Broken foot! Wow, now that is bad luck but then you won that cool rig in a forum competition! 
Never a dull moment in your life 

Glad you have the Elise and are enjoying. Hope you can squeeze in some more listening time. You will be rewarded with each listen.

Luck to you, sir...I am off to follow your link and read the blogpost Elise opinion. 

Cheers

--JV--

.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Speaking of music, just discovered David Gilmour's new album, "Rattle That Lock". As one would expect, there definite hints of Pink Floyd and I'm liking it a lot.




I was wondering about the album. Typically, he's good for one of two key tracks, and the rest is kinda filler. Ironically, my favorite track of his is not on an album; it's a flip side of a 45RPM 12". Killer sound, too.

The new tubes for the Woo have arrived! Rolled a pair of 6CY7 about a half hour ago, still barely warmed up, and the signs are encouraging. First good sign, no buzz.


----------



## whirlwind

gibosi said:


> Speaking of music, just discovered David Gilmour's new album, "Rattle That Lock". As one would expect, there definite hints of Pink Floyd and I'm liking it a lot.


 
 I just downloaded the deluxe version in flac this morning....I got it from melodishop.com
  
 $1.26 for the deluxe flac version...it has four different mixes of Rattle The Lock ....great album....I am listening to it for like the third time


----------



## JazzVinyl

whirlwind said:


> I just downloaded the deluxe version in flac this morning....I got it from melodishop.com
> 
> $1.26 for the deluxe flac version...it has four different mixes of Rattle The Lock ....great album....I am listening to it for like the third time


 

 A dollar twenty six cents for a set of FLAC files for a newly released album?
  
 That is extremely inexpensive.  I did a "whois" for melodishop.com and it comes back as Ukraine domain,  I wonder if they are selling legally dispensed copies?
  
 Interesting article here, about FLAC files with a link at the end,  to get a progam that looks at the FLAC file and determines it's origin (FLAC from CD, FLAC from MP3 etc)
  
 Would be interesting to see what it reports on the FLAC's you downloaded from melodishop
  
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2012/jun/14/digital-music-flac-sources
  
 --JV--


----------



## whirlwind

jazzvinyl said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > I just downloaded the deluxe version in flac this morning....I got it from melodishop.com
> ...


 
 You can not get a flac from an mp3


----------



## JazzVinyl

whirlwind said:


> You can not get a flac from an mp3


 
  
 Hello Whirlwind -
  
 You can...it does no good to do so, the resulting FLAC will sound exactly like the source MP3. 
  
 Point is,  that its doubtful that any site selling a just released album in any downloadable format, for one dollar and twenty six cents is providing you with a legal copy.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> Speaking of music, just discovered David Gilmour's new album, "Rattle That Lock". As one would expect, there definite hints of Pink Floyd and I'm liking it a lot.


 

 I'm listening to it now on Tidal HiFi subscription.


----------



## UntilThen

tjw321 said:


> Sorry about the rambling below, but I really owe this thread a few posts, and this is the first chance I've had to post for a while....
> 
> I seem to be cursed when it comes to getting some quality time with my Elise. Firstly, I lose my job the day I was going to place my order  - and end up ordering it just before the price increase, with fingers crossed that the interview I had that morning went as well as I hoped (it did, fortunately). And now I've broken my foot, thereby disrupting my plans to make a proper space for the Elise where my “nice” gear sits.
> The net result of all this, is that I feel derelict in my posting to this thread, and I have only had a few hours listening with the Elise - and then only with my portable sources (yes, H1, the X3 has been pressed into emergency service again!).
> With my new job, I have a much longer commute, and much longer hours, so I’m not going to have enough time for any serious tube-rolling. Therefore I’ve elected to stick (so far) with just trying driver tubes which are currently in production. I have the stock drivers, some Tung Sol re-issues and some Electro-Harmonix (not the gold ones).


 
 It's a good story TJ. I'm glad everything works out well for you in the end. I too have read good things about the Tung Sols and EHs. Tube rolling is for us individuals to explore for ourselves what's good and what's not and as had been mentioned many times in this thread, what is good for one person is not necessary good for another.


----------



## whirlwind

jazzvinyl said:


> whirlwind said:
> 
> 
> > You can not get a flac from an mp3
> ...


 
 Well, you can go to the site...browse around and see what you think....I have been using it for close to a year now......not a single regret


----------



## UntilThen

> Originally Posted by *gibosi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> I wanted to make a more durable repair. For this, I used clear finger nail polish. I applied it to the glass-base junction and then put the tube aside to allow the polish to harden. And it is as good as new!


 
 G thanks for this !!! I'm going to try it at the expense of my wife wondering what I'm doing with her nail polish.
  
 Wouldn't clear glue be better?


----------



## hypnos1

tjw321 said:


> Bear in mind that *nothing* is burned in yet, and that my source was just my, albeit very good, portable player, and things can only get better.
> The really good news, is that the Elise can sound fantastic without exotic tubes. Anyone with limited time, or a limited budget, will still get excellent results with the Tung Sols (which are now the stock drivers, I believe). And the EHs also give excellent results so for very little extra expenditure you can get two amps for the price of one (signature-wise).
> 
> Edit: Just found this comparison which includes the TSs and EHs. I pretty much agree with everything he says (but in the context of the Elise), except that I liked the EHs a *little* better (with the right headphones): http://singaporehifi.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/6sn7-comparisons.html


 
  
 Hi tjw...and welcome back.
  
 Am so glad you got the job...and that you managed to beat the price hike! Glad also she stepped up to the mark for you - and as mordy aptly implies...my catch words are "JUST YOU WAIT"!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 As you say, the Elise performs brilliantly with modest tubes, but she is capable of so much more. And now the not-too-expensive 6N7G has appeared on the scene, this could prove to be a wonderful option for those who don't want to go the C3g or ECC31 route...keep watching this space, lol!
  
 ps.  But now, of course, you've just got to consider a really nice DAC with which to spoil this marvellous amp!
  
 Hope you manage to get some decent quality time with her, so you can keep us up to date with progress...CHEERS!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


jazzvinyl said:


> Hello H1 -
> 
> I think the Joybringers are the kind of tube that reveals just what the source has to offer. If I listen to a recording that has great bass, that is what I get. If the original recording was lacking in bass punch, the Joybringers deliver the news.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I take it you're still impressed with just what this amp is capable of, lol!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...(I continue to be amazed with each new day...  and I too hate coming back down from the clouds! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










).
  
 HAPPY LISTENING...
  
 I must admit I really like the look of those Fivre tubes on ebay...but I must also desist...


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> Speaking of music, just discovered David Gilmour's new album, "Rattle That Lock". As one would expect, there definite hints of Pink Floyd and I'm liking it a lot.


 

 Not available here yet and couldnt get it off HDtracks due to region restriction .


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> G thanks for this !!! I'm going to try it at the expense of my wife wondering what I'm doing with her nail polish.
> 
> Wouldn't clear glue be better?


 
 Searching the internet, super glue, wood glue, RTV silicone and various epoxies all seem to be popular. My feeling is that I really baby my tubes, so I don't really think I need an industrial-strength adhesive. And I like the fact that if I ever need to remove the base, I don't need an industrial-strength solvent either, just nail-polish remover.
  
 In the end, I would suggest that you use the product you are most comfortable with, as they will all do the trick.


----------



## JazzVinyl

whirlwind said:


> Well, you can go to the site...browse around and see what you think....I have been using it for close to a year now......not a single regret




Hello Whirlwind...

Yes I have seen the site. 

It is a well known and popular pirate site, that distributes music and movies that it pays no royalties for, and has no right to distribute. 
You get what you want (the music). The site gets what it wants (your money). 

The loser in the deal is the artists, and all the people who worked to get the music produced, in hopes of selling (legal) copies. . 

I would also watch your credit card you use on that site carefully, as the site owners clearly demonstrate that they don't care who gets hurt in pursuit of profit. Be careful. 

See Ya

--JV--

.

.


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> I must admit I really like the look of those Fivre tubes on ebay...but I must also desist...:evil:




Hello H1...

I have had an eye on them too, they look beautiful. Probably a gamble, like the Vissenaux ones I bought.

Not much on the net about Italian tube makers...did find this blurb about Fivre 

---- FIVRE was the largest all-Italian company, founded in 1932 in Pavia by Magneti Marelli to produce vacuum tubes under Radiotron license. For a while their tube supplies to the parent company, Marelli, were characterized by distinctive violet-glass bulbs. In their ads they evidenced the equivalence of their tubes with those manufactured in the United States by RCA. ‘RCA – FIVRE: From America to Italy, different brands but the same quality’ said an ad from a 1934 magazine.


--JV--

.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Surprise!
  
 The "GM" brand pair of 6N7G's arrived today.  Tracking number said look for them Monday, but I guess they were just dying for a nice warm ride in the Elise!
  
 Letting the Joybringers' cool....
  
 --JV--
  
 .


----------



## UntilThen

This is a good history of the various tube brands.
  
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=JscDjhfA-cYC&pg=PA65&dq=TUNG-SOL+company&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hvOfUtuMK4_zoASXhYKABw#v=onepage&q=TUNG-SOL%20company&f=false   page 65 onwards
  
 Waiting to hear what you think of the GM.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Okay...that's it. 

It's safe to buy any old pair of 6N7G's in the ST envelope (shaped like a small coke bottle).

These sound absolutely FANTASTIC and have a juicer bottom than the 1940's French pair.

I paid a total of $46.00 for this pair, shipped. The labels say: 
"GM Genuine Parts". Think I looked up that they are RCA rebrands...anyone know for sure? There is matching date codes "S7"

Now...please please tell no one! So the price of this tube does not skyrocket. 

--JV--

.


----------



## UntilThen

Haha JV you've already told everyone. I got a pair of Philco that tested strong at $33 with combined shipping. Seller says they are circa '30s.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Haha JV you've already told everyone. I got a pair of Philco that tested strong at $33 with combined shipping. Seller says they are circa '30s.




What? You TOLD???   

Let's say that I am sure 6N7G in the ST envelope and Bottom D Foil getters sound good.

Not sure if there are other getter styles or not, but ordered these because I knew the French ones had bottom D getters. 

Now....SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

--JV--

.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Hi- I want to try tube amp. Don't want to wait 1 month, I would rather buy something else for wait time. Willing to pay full retail price for elise. Please PM if willing to sell me used unit. Tnanks,


----------



## UntilThen

I like the shape of these 6N7 Marconi so will put it to the test. At least I'll be able to tell the difference if any between these and the coke bottles.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> I like the shape of these 6N7 Marconi so will put it to the test. At least I'll be able to tell the difference if any between these and the coke bottles.


 
  
 I have 2 pair.  You will undoubtedly hear a difference.
  
 .


----------



## UntilThen

I like a slice of history. Guglielmo Marconi Italian inventor and electrical engineer.


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> I paid a total of $46.00 for this pair, shipped. The labels say:
> "GM Genuine Parts". Think I looked up that they are RCA rebrands...anyone know for sure? There are matching date codes "S7".


 
  
 RCA certainly did make tubes for GM. However, "S7" doesn't seem to conform with any of the codes listed here:
  
 http://pax-comm.com/rcadates.pdf


----------



## Shaffer

Apparently, I missed an envelope in the mailbox earlier today. It contained a pair of small signal tube adapters for the Elise. Finally got 'em!

ATM, the else is running NOS Sylvania 6BQ7A divers. Not burned in at all. The sound is very dynamic with a sense of crystalline clarity - I suspect, in part, due to the tubes being new with a slight spotlight on the highs - and well-defined, nicely articulated bass. Not as extended as with the loctal bottles, so we'll see what happens in ~50 hours.

I have more stuff to try.


----------



## UntilThen

Nice to see tube rolling on the Elise going at full steam Shaffer.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Nice to see tube rolling on the Elise going at full steam Shaffer. :bigsmile_face:




Thanks! The tubes finally see the Elise. I'm waiting for a second tube which I hope will complete the pair I have most hope for. The seller found one with the same date code as the first (1957). Both are NOS, so they'll need burin, as well. It never ends....

There's another tube that sounded really great in the DV. Now I just need for find another. A matter of time.


----------



## UntilThen

Those 6BQ7A are quite cheap and a real bonus if they sound good and from your description they sure sound good.
  
 I can't wait to get home tomorrow. Some tubes should be waiting for me.


----------



## aqsw

Not sure what dacs everybody is using on their elise, but I will be using the Hegel HD 12. I think it will look and pair fantasically with the amp. Very simple, no dials and you can dim the blue display.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0115/Hegel_HD12_DAC_Review.htm


----------



## JazzVinyl

aqsw said:


> Not sure what dacs everybody is using on their elise, but I will be using the Hegel HD 12. I think it will look and pair fantasically with the amp. Very simple, no dials and you can dim the blue display.




Sounds good. The link provided is not working, for me. 

Think my dac is a "Wolfson" not the latest generation, but seems pretty good.


----------



## aqsw

jazzvinyl said:


> Sounds good. The link provided is not working, for me.
> 
> Think my dac is a "Wolfson" not the latest generation, but seems pretty good.





Try the link now.


----------



## Shaffer

I use an Oppo105, no stand-alone DAC. As I own +2500 CDs and other digital media, a universal player with easily accessed DAC and the ability to use an external HDD works best in my situation. Plus, it's the best sounding digital I've heard. I hear the Hegel is very good.


----------



## aqsw

shaffer said:


> I use an Oppo105, no stand-alone DAC. As I own +2500 CDs and other digital media, a universal player with easily accessed DAC and the ability to use an external HDD works best in my situation. Plus, it's the best sounding digital I've heard. I hear the Hegel is very good.




I have an Oppo HA 1 in my office. The hegel dac section absolutely kills the Oppo.


----------



## JazzVinyl

aqsw said:


> Try the link now.




I am using a Safari browser...and the link returns:

Not Found [CFN #0005]


----------



## aqsw

It's going to be a very long 6 to 7 weeks. I haven't been this anxious for new gear for a long time.


----------



## JazzVinyl

aqsw said:


> It's going to be a very long 6 to 7 weeks. I haven't been this anxious for new gear for a long time.




Hear ya, hope it does come that soon. I waited 12 weeks. 

Got to the review a different way, looks absolutely superb and jaw dropping specs. How much does something like that set you back?

--JV--

.


----------



## aqsw

jazzvinyl said:


> Hear ya, hope it does come that soon. I waited 12 weeks.
> 
> Got to the review a different way, looks absolutely superb and jaw dropping specs. How much does something like that set you back?
> 
> ...


12 weeks. You're killing me.! Hegels are quite expensive. Their integrated and power amps are stupidly expensive, but the reviews are fantastic. I got lucky with a brand new distributor of Hegel. It was his first Hegel order and he passed the savings onto me. I am extatic with this dac. Iwill be using the balanced outputs to a Cavalli Liquid carbn and the RCAs to the Elise. I'm pretty sure the Elise will get the most run time though.


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> Okay...that's it.
> 
> It's safe to buy any old pair of 6N7G's in the ST envelope (shaped like a small coke bottle).
> 
> ...


 
  
 That's good news JV...and good work, lol!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ....now we just have to hope the stock holders aren't spying on us!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  


jazzvinyl said:


> What? You TOLD???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 My FDD20s have bottom, rectangular, raised 'pan' getters - similar to the ECC31s - and the plates look almost exactly the same as the 31s.
  
 These tubes are beginning to scramble my brain something cruel...just as I begin to think I'm getting a handle on them, they throw me right off the scent, lol! - another couple of 5+hrs sessions and they are massively different to the early days. Gibosi's comment re a certain similarity to the C3g is once again spot on.
  
 BUT...in the Elise - and with 2 tubes rather than the Glenn's single - the forwardness that has him preferring the ECC31 is not there to any superfluous degree...given my own set-up of course, and particularly my Beyer T1s. The sound is now uncannily like my Siemens C3g'S' - the more extended treble bringing greater air and spatial character, plus the C3g 'fizz' and sparkle...without the occasional 'metallic' element, as you described it. My ex-lover has come back to rock the boat BIG TIME!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Bass isn't _quite_ so subwoofer-like (as yet!), and mids not _quite_ so full...but the way things are going, it wouldn't surprise me at all if this weren't to change also...and scramble my poor brain even further...I can see myself hopelessly torn between two lovers...(thought I'd got through this life stage long ago LOL!!!).
  
 So, as of the moment, these FDD20s stand basically midway between the Siemens C3g'S' and the ECC31...IN MY GEAR...and I am totally gobsmacked...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...(I'm almost afraid to continue with further burn-in!).
  
 ps.  A piece of delicious treble _tone_ and decay -  and not just extension - has just kicked me in the nether regions - worse than any ex I've ever known...what _*am*_ I to do?!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...*HELP!!!*


----------



## JazzVinyl

> Originally Posted by *hypnos1* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> So, as of the moment, these FDD20s stand basically midway between the Siemens C3g'S' and the ECC31...IN MY GEAR...and I am totally gobsmacked...
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Interesting!  Sounds like the FDD20's are more like my French 6N7G's, the GM versions (I think they are RCA), are a little different.  Less fizz/pizazz up high, and more boom in the bottom!  The "closeness" and excitement in the mids is about the same in both.
  
 The GN7G's are plenty inexpensive enough for you to grab a pair, H1...we all want that ECC31/6N7G comparison!
  
 I am having to remodel a bathroom...so no ECC31's for me, this Autumn/Winter, I expect.
  
 --JV--
  
 .


----------



## nephilim

Gents (and Ladies?),
  
 I just received a few tubes and scratch my head whether one is a dud...
  
 I got a pair of Cetron 7236 and while one is fine the other one has a loose glas particle inside and white speckles on the inside. Moreover, I can almost look through the top - it's faint, but not white and still reflecting. They do sound OK.
  

  

  
 The other tubes is my spare set of Mullard ECC31 - interestingly, those are dead silent, e.g., while typing on the keyboard which sits on the same desk as the Elise. I received one with the same 4 small even heat plates as shown in Colin's pictures while the other has the same pair of 'bridge like' plates as my other pair. There is some material coming off in one place - I guess I should not worry about this, right?
  

  
 Cheers,
 #011


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 Any news on how the Marconi metal can 6N7 tubes sound?


----------



## UntilThen

Mordy, I've just ordered those so will take several days to arrive. Besides my Elise is still on the horizon. However I am willing to try it based on this write up:-
  
 6N7 blog
 "The three variants with the different shapes are electrically interchangable. All of them are very nice sounding tubes. Don't shy away from the metal versions. The fact that it is quite cheaply available (about $5 for NOS tubes) doesn't mean it is bad sounding. Most people avoid it because the glow is not visible."


----------



## UntilThen

Yes H1 will be the best person to do a ECC31 / 6N7G comparison so I'm cheering you on.


----------



## UntilThen

nephilim said:


> I got a pair of Cetron 7236


 
 Nep how does the 7236 compare to the 5998? I really love the 5998 so much so I got a 2nd pair.


----------



## nephilim

Oooh, I was looking for a pair of 5998 but the prices were insane. A few days ago there was a single 5998 which I didn't care about, as the previous one was sold for a ridiculous amount of money. In the end the price was not too bad, so I shouldnt have given up so early. Anyhow, I cannot help you as 1) no 5998 over here and 2) the Cetron's have just arrived. Maybe we should exchange a pair of 5998 and a pair of 7236, so that you can do the comparison yourself


----------



## UntilThen

Lol I might you up on your offer after a few more glasses of red wine. 5998 is still way cheaper than GEC 6AS7G. About a third cheaper. This is my 2nd pair still to arrive. It's new unused.


----------



## nephilim

Just give me the address and the bottle will be sent soon 
  
 I wonder what to do with the Cetron... Are the speckles, glass particle and faint getter flash a sign of a bad tube?


----------



## UntilThen

You have to ask the experts around here. My 1st picture, the left tube died before my eyes after one hour of glorious music. Literally saw a flash of light go up the filament. Fortunately no harm done at all to my amp and headphone. The seller has given me a dud tube and has de-registered from eBay.
  
 However having spoken to eBay they assured me I'll have my money back guarantee even if the seller has disappeared. Paypal assured me too. They are 2 separate entity now.


----------



## mordy

Does anybody know if the JAN CRC 1635 tube can be used in the Elise?
  

 Octal (Int.Octal, IO) K8A, USA 1935 (Codex=Ud)*Filament*Vf 6.3 Volts / If 0.6 Ampere / Indirect / Parallel, (AC/DC) /*Description* Duotriode, low-distortion high-µ Class B type, low-heater-current, T9 bulb on octal base; heater 6.3V @ 600 mA, µ 65, 3.3 W (RCA, W). Dev. for government use; "particularly used for underwater sound" (sonar?}. Announced by RCA 1942; sales limited to existing inventory 1971. [Information by L. Sibley]
 Since this tube is operated without negative bias, it requires a high-µ characteristic to keep the plate current low. This is achieved by using two separate control grids connected in parallel inside the bulb. 
  
  

 Look, the C3g was made for underwater use in transatlantic cables, so maybe this one would be good sounding too?


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Lol I might you up on your offer after a few more glasses of red wine. 5998 is still way cheaper than GEC 6AS7G. About a third cheaper. This is my 2nd pair still to arrive. It's new unused.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## UntilThen

Not these ones. These are new. My first 5998 picture. Yup it burned right in front of me just a small silvery flash travelling upwards then nothing dead completely. Headphone crackle a bit before that happened. Only the left tube.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Not these ones. These are new. My first 5998 picture. Yup it burned right in front of me just a small silvery flash travelling upwards then nothing dead completely. Headphone crackle a bit before that happened. Only the left tube.




I would have cried 

The ones on the blue background, were for sale in Vietnam?


----------



## UntilThen

Yes sir and I bought the ones in the blue background. They are my 2nd pair.


----------



## UntilThen

The Tung Sol 6AS7G that I bought sometime ago came today. What a nice surprise coming back from holiday. I held my breath as I opened the boxes hoping they are the real thing lol. Then I saw the words Tung Sol / Chatham and the copper rods.
  
 Thank you Skylab for selling me these at a very good price by today's standard. They look very new too just aged and those are original boxes.
  


 Because I didn't know they are 'real' I also bought another pair of Chatham 6AS7G which also arrived today!!!
 So I've got 4 now.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Yes sir and I bought the ones in the blue background. They are my 2nd pair.




Yes, nice! They were on my radar, too. 

I just won an auction for an NOS pair of Mullard 6080's so hope I like them as upgrade to the Soviet 6N13S's...

Enjoy your NOS 5998's!!


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> The Tung Sol 6AS7G that I bought sometime ago came today. What a nice surprise coming back from holiday. I held my breath as I opened the boxes hoping they are the real thing lol. Then I saw the words Tung Sol / Chatham and the copper rods.
> 
> Thank you Skylab for selling me these at a very good price by today's standard. They look very new too just aged and those are original boxes.
> 
> ...




Lucky Dog!!!! Hope you enjoy them!!

.


----------



## UntilThen

On 2nd inspection the tubes from Skylab are brand new letterings are still 100% and shiny glass but base a bit loose. This is where G's advice comes in. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 
  
 Matching dates codes too the pair...3225922


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> I just won an auction for an NOS pair of Mullard 6080's so hope I like them as upgrade to the Soviet 6N13S's...


 
 JV those are nice too. Lots of good reviews on those.


----------



## MIKELAP

nephilim said:


> Just give me the address and the bottle will be sent soon
> 
> I wonder what to do with the Cetron... Are the speckles, glass particle and faint getter flash a sign of a bad tube?


 

 ive been using some tubes with glass particles inside for a year now and they are still working fine


----------



## gibosi

mordy said:


> Does anybody know if the JAN CRC 1635 tube can be used in the Elise?
> 
> 
> Octal (Int.Octal, IO) K8A, USA 1935 (Codex=Ud)*Filament*Vf 6.3 Volts / If 0.6 Ampere / Indirect / Parallel, (AC/DC) /*Description* Duotriode, low-distortion high-µ Class B type, low-heater-current, T9 bulb on octal base; heater 6.3V @ 600 mA, µ 65, 3.3 W (RCA, W). Dev. for government use; "particularly used for underwater sound" (sonar?}. Announced by RCA 1942; sales limited to existing inventory 1971. [Information by L. Sibley]
> Since this tube is operated without negative bias, it requires a high-µ characteristic to keep the plate current low. This is achieved by using two separate control grids connected in parallel inside the bulb.


 
  
 The 1635 is very similar electrically to the 6N7 with the same pinout. So for those who have adapters to use 6N7 and ECC31, the 1635 is one more to consider. A quick search suggests that only RCA made these.


----------



## Shaffer

*Woo Audio WA6 Impressions*

Where as the DV336SE offers a multitude of sonic possibilities via rolling, the Woo Audio WA6 doesn't. Not without adapters. I stuck with the stock-fit possibilities and settled on a 6FD7 fat bottle. A fine looking tube. I was waiting to post anything serious about the amp, as I kept hoping a different tube would have a significant influence on its sonic quality. It did, but not to the degree that changes the sound of the amp profoundly. Tonally, yes. Resolution, no. The sound of the circuit, itself, dominated the presentation.

Imagine looking at a bridge, far in the distance, on a fall morning. There's mist in the air, hardly seen or felt, an imperceivable fog of sorts that rounds-off the edges of the bridge, as if there were no true right angles. That's what the WA6 sounds like: no sharp edges, no right angles, no tightly focused images. It's a limp handshake of an amplifier. No real guts. It sounds very pleasant, never offends, and at the same same time it never excels. At anything. Well, I shouldn't say that. Its build quality is excellent, as is its knob. 

The highs are soft, the mids are slightly withdrawn, and the the bass is limited in its extension and articulation. There's no weight. To anything. Most noticeable is the fog that surrounds and engulfs the entire musical presentation. It's not air, as becomes immediately apparent after switching to a DV shod with excellent tubes.

I'm not totally unhappy with the amp, as it puts on a nice light show, looks great in my rack, and sometimes compliments a given recording with its smorgasbord of colorations, which remain constant as a mark of the circuit, itself.

Notice how the Elise was not mentioned. It's like comparing a low-powered BMW sedan to a McLaren. As the WA6 sits right now - Sylvania 6FD7/RK-60 - it's a direct competitor to a DV336SE shod with 7AF7/JAN Chatham 6AS7G.

I will revise these impressions, if needed, once the GZ34 arrives.


----------



## DecentLevi

> Originally Posted by *JazzVinyl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> 
> ... Since we think the 0.8 amp current draw of the 6N7G are perfectly safe for the Elise, I am not going to worry about the rest, and just enjoy the tremendous sound quality improvement the 6N7G's bring, over 6SN7's and even over C3gS's....


 
  
 Hello guys, I just recently had time to (start) getting caught up with this thread, and am still trying to wrap my head around the Elise.
  
 So let's see if I got this straight: the 6N7G tubes are found to be superior on the Elise than the 6SN7 and even than the more expensive ECC31's. However:
 Are you sure it's electrically safe to use these?
 In what way does this  tube make it sound better?
 What specific 6N7G tube were you using, or is there only one type?


----------



## DecentLevi

mordy said:


> ...At this point I have no desire to try any 6SN7 or similar family type tubes as drivers since I find the C3g tubes far superior. With these drivers almost anything from the 6080 and 6AS7 families sound great!
> I firmly believe that we should be able to find great not too expensive tubes to produce beautiful sound from the Elise. A pair of used C3g driver tubes (10,000 hour lifespan) can be found for around $35 with a little patience (need adapters), and GE 6080 or 6AS7GA power tubes (older ones from 50's and 60's) can be found for under $20/pair. Or you could stay with the OEM 6H13C tubes as well...


 
 So is it the general consensus that the 6N7G tubes sound better than the C3G tubes, as well as 6080 and 6AS7 tubes? And are all these driver tubes or power tubes? Thanks!


----------



## Shaffer

decentlevi said:


> Hello guys, I just recently had time to (start) getting caught up with this thread, and am still trying to wrap my head around the Elise.
> 
> So let's see if I got this straight: the 6N7G tubes are found to be superior on the Elise than the 6SN7 and even than the more expensive ECC31's. However:
> Are you sure it's electrically safe to use these?
> ...




We haven't had enough data points yet to unequivocally recommend the tubes. Some have taken the chance and ordered some, myself included, and it will be a while until we can aggregately assess them. Yes, we're sure they're electrically safe and with some room to spare.

If you decide on an Elise, by the time one is built and you break it in, all these questions will have answers.



decentlevi said:


> So is it the general consensus that the *6N7G tubes* sound better than the *C3G tubes*, as well as 6080 and 6AS7 tubes? And are all these driver tubes or power tubes? Thanks!




These are drivers.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> The 1635 is very similar electrically to the 6N7 with the same pinout. So for those who have adapters to use 6N7 and ECC31, the 1635 is one more to consider. A quick search suggests that only RCA made these.


 
  
 The 1635 shown here:
  
http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_1635.html
  
 Looks like the 6N7G seen 3rd from left here:
  

  
 I realize you can't judge tube sound by the way it looks..but I did try the 6N7 that looks like this and (my copy) did not have the magic that the ST (coke bottle) envelopes (first two on the left in the photo above) had.
  
 .I will probably pass on the 1635.  Hope someone else gets it and reports in.
  
 .


----------



## JazzVinyl

decentlevi said:


> So is it the general consensus that the 6N7G tubes sound better than the C3G tubes, as well as 6080 and 6AS7 tubes? And are all these driver tubes or power tubes? Thanks!


 
  
 Hello DecentLevi...
  
 No, not "general consensus" that 6N7G tubes sound better than the C3G tubes.  As far as I know, I am the only one who has tried them both.  The C3g is a very fine driver tube, make no mistake.  But I do like the 6N7G's in the ST envelope (coke bottle version) better.  But that is in _my_ system.
  
 Someone else might come along and try both, and prefer the C3g.  Both the C3g and 6N6G require adapters to be used as driver tubes in the Elise. 
  
 The 6080 and 6AS7 are power tubes, and do not relate to driver tube choices.
  
 .


----------



## JazzVinyl

decentlevi said:


> Hello guys, I just recently had time to (start) getting caught up with this thread, and am still trying to wrap my head around the Elise.
> 
> So let's see if I got this straight: the 6N7G tubes are found to be superior on the Elise than the 6SN7 and even than the more expensive ECC31's. However:
> Are you sure it's electrically safe to use these?
> ...


 
  
 Slow down please...no one said that the 6N7G sounds better than ECC31.  No one yet, has made a direct comparison of those two.  Think it's safe to say several here think the 6N7G (in the ST envelope) and ECC31 do sound better than your average 6SN7.
  
 I have been running the 6N7G's almost exclusively in my Elise, no problems.  H1 has a lot of hours with ECC31 in his Elise and has had no problems.
  
 A concern comes if the tube heater draws more than 1 amp of current.  6N7G draws 0.8, ECC31 draws 0.95.
  
 Neither are officially listed by the Elise team as compatible, however.
  
 We just tried them, discovered they sound great, and observed did not blow anything up 
  
 (( We knew before tying them, from datasheets, that the heater current draw was below the 1 amp threshold ))
  
 .


----------



## UntilThen

Shaffer your review has just make my DV336se appreciates in value. That reminds me of someone who pops in to the DV thread and said that the DV336se is a very very naughty amp and that he has to banished it because it leads him to where he is right now - with a EC445 which I initially thought was a tube.


----------



## DecentLevi

Hello JV, that's awesome info., thanks! So  I guess the verdict is still out, and theoretically one could still sound better over the other depending on the specific tube used or user preference. But would you mind telling us which sonic aspects sounded better about the sound with your 6N7G tubes, and which one of these tubes you're using? (You said the ST envelope (coke bottle version) but I wonder which year, etc.) Thanks again


----------



## JazzVinyl

decentlevi said:


> Hello JV, that's awesome info., thanks! So  I guess the verdict is still out, and theoretically one could still sound better over the other depending on the specific tube used or user preference. But would you mind telling us which sonic aspects sounded better about the sound with your 6N7G tubes, and which one of these tubes you're using? (You said the ST envelope (coke bottle version) but I wonder which year, etc.) Thanks again


 

 I have a pair of 1940's made in brand 6N7G's and a 1970'S pair that are labeled "GM" but are probably made by RCA. 
  
 Both are in the large ST (coke bottle) envelopes.  Both have bottom getters.  Both are amazingly clear/crisp, make you feel closer to the music.  Hear details you never noticed before.
  
 You can review all the 6N7G info here, by going to google and pasting in the entire line below in the search bar:
  
 "6N7G" site:head-fi.org/t/732875/feliks-audio-elise-previously-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype
  
  
 .


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> The 1635 shown here:
> 
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_1635.html
> 
> ...


 
 Yes I've got the 1635 which is the middle tube but you're not hearing from me until after Christmas.!


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> The Tung Sol 6AS7G that I bought sometime ago came today. What a nice surprise coming back from holiday. I held my breath as I opened the boxes hoping they are the real thing lol. Then I saw the words Tung Sol / Chatham and the copper rods.
> 
> Thank you Skylab for selling me these at a very good price by today's standard. They look very new too just aged and those are original boxes.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes...lucky fellow indeed - these beauties are getting much harder to find...and at a reasonable price!
  
 (If I'd known earlier it was Skylab you got your first ones from, I would have put you out of your misery straight away - he's one awesome head-fier, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  


gibosi said:


> The 1635 is very similar electrically to the 6N7 with the same pinout. So for those who have adapters to use 6N7 and ECC31, the 1635 is one more to consider. A quick search suggests that only RCA made these.


 
  
 Hi g.
  
 That gain looks awfully high to me...has me wondering, lol...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
  


shaffer said:


> *Woo Audio WA6 Impressions*
> 
> Notice how the Elise was not mentioned. It's like comparing a low-powered BMW sedan to a McLaren. As the WA6 sits right now - Sylvania 6FD7/RK-60 - it's a direct competitor to a DV336SE shod with 7AF7/JAN Chatham 6AS7G.
> 
> I will revise these impressions, if needed, once the GZ34 arrives.


 
  
 Hi 007.
  
 Sorry the Woo looks a bit disappointing for you (at the moment)...but I love how you keep coming back to put the Elise in her exalted position...deservedly so IMHO, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


decentlevi said:


> So is it the general consensus that the 6N7G tubes sound better than the C3G tubes, as well as 6080 and 6AS7 tubes? And are all these driver tubes or power tubes? Thanks!


 
  
 Hi DL.
  
 Looks like the guys are doing their usual helpful stuff...don't have much to add just yet, really. And as Shaffer says, given a bit more time yet we should have a much better slant on the 6N7G.
  
 Just remember the C3g needs me to make adapters  - which I'm afraid I may not be able to be so prompt at doing from now on. And my own experience with the FDD20, which is another version of the 6N7G (but needs external 12/13V heater supply) is pointing to the probability that this family of driver tubes will be one of the very best alternative options for those happy to experiment away from the 6SN7 original configuration.
  
 ps. I suggest also a multiple re-read of the now quite a good few posts on this subject - there is indeed a lot of info to digest...this has been a VERY busy thread for quite a while now!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


untilthen said:


> Yes I've got the 1635 which is the middle tube but you're not hearing from me until after Christmas.!


 
  
 Hi UT.
  
 That is very sad news indeed - no news 'til then?...OUCH!.. (But you will be such a mine of useful feedback...how can we wait that long, lol? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...Ah well, Christmas won't be long now!!).
  
 ps. Re my reply to gibosi concerning the 1635, I personally would check with Lukasz about that VERY high gain...just not worth taking any more chances than we already are, lol!


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Shaffer your review has just make my DV336se appreciates in value. That reminds me of someone who pops in to the DV thread and said that the DV336se is a very very naughty amp and that he has to banished it because it leads him to where he is right now - with a EC445 which I initially thought was a tube. :bigsmile_face:




Either the DV is a surprisingly good amplifier or the Woo is a surprisingly limited one. Ultimately, the DV offers a bigger, more engaging sound.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> Either the DV is a surprisingly good amplifier or the Woo is a surprisingly limited one. Ultimately, the DV offers a bigger, more engaging sound.


 
  
 Speaking of big sound...
  
 We are all looking forward to your engaging the rocket engines (6N7G in ST envelope) to your Elise....buckle up! 
  
 .


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> ps. Re my reply to gibosi concerning the 1635, I personally would check with Lukasz about that VERY high gain...just not worth taking any more chances than we already are, lol!


 
  
 Do you know what the mu of the 1635 is? I don't see it on the RCA data sheet....
  
 Interestingly, the 6N7 was also described as having a high gain, but again, I do not see a a value for mu on 6N7 datasheets. The ECC31 (and ECC32) has a mu of around 35. My best guess is that when these tubes were developed, a tube with a mu of about 35 was considered to have a high gain. Given that the 1635, 6N7 and ECC31 are considered to be very similar, my guess is they all have about the same mu, around 35.


----------



## UntilThen

G this link has info on 6N7....   http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/tube-of-month-6n7.html. 
  
 I better be sure on this before I blow up my Elise lol.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> G this link has info on 6N7....   http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/tube-of-month-6n7.html.
> 
> I better be sure on this before I blow up my Elise lol.


 
  
 Says 6N7G: "has a medium amplification factor of 35".   6SN7's have a gain of 20
  
 Definitely,  I am at the 11 o'clock on the volume dial for 6N7G's compared to almost 2:00 o'clock when a 6SN7 is used.
  
 .


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Says 6N7G: "has a medium amplification factor of 35".   6SN7's have a gain of 20
> 
> Definitely,  I am at the 11 o'clock on the volume dial for 6N7G's compared to almost 2:00 o'clock when a 6SN7 is used..


 
  
 Yes. Both the 6N7 and ECC31 have an amplification factor of 35, and therefore, I am quite sure the 1635 is about the same. Note that the ECC32 is on the approved list for the Else and it too has a gain of 35. Also, the 6DJ8 has a gain of around 35. A gain of 35 is perfectly fine in the Elise.
  
 And in fact, many folks run 6SL7s in their 6SN7/6AS7 amps and it has a gain of 70!  But again no problem.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> Do you know what the mu of the 1635 is? I don't see it on the RCA data sheet....
> 
> Interestingly, the 6N7 was also described as having a high gain, but again, I do not see a a value for mu on 6N7 datasheets. The ECC31 (and ECC32) has a mu of around 35. My best guess is that when these tubes were developed, a tube with a mu of about 35 was considered to have a high gain. Given that the 1635, 6N7 and ECC31 are considered to be very similar, my guess is they all have about the same mu, around 35.


 
  
 Hi g.
  
 Saw it on another site before, but just looked on radiomuseum site and confirmed it's *65!!!*....so???
  


untilthen said:


> G this link has info on 6N7....   http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/tube-of-month-6n7.html.
> 
> I better be sure on this before I blow up my Elise lol.


 
  
 Hi UT...see above...my advice to check with Lukasz stands. I personally wouldn't even bother taking the risk - the 6N7G (ST bottle shape) family is looking SO good...no need for further risk IMHO...


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Yes...lucky fellow indeed - these beauties are getting much harder to find...and at a reasonable price!
> 
> (If I'd known earlier it was Skylab you got your first ones from, I would have put you out of your misery straight away - he's one awesome head-fier, lol!
> 
> ...


 
 Yes Skylab is a fine gentleman and one of my favourite reviewers. Thanks to G's tip on using clear nail polish, the loose bases are now rock solid and I have new tubes !!!
  
  
 I said after Christmas for my impressions because it's probably be mid Oct before I get Elise. Then I've a whole bunch of tubes to listen to not forgetting burning in Elise and the tubes. Well really I just want to start off slowly with the stock russian tubes and use that as a benchmark to evaluate the other tubes which includes C3gs, ECC31, 5998. Above all I'd really hope that my reaction would be 'YES YES YES !!!' on first listen to Elise. Remember she's competing against the mighty Darkvoice 336se lol. Looks like a busy Christmas.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Hi g.
> 
> Saw it on another site before, but just looked on radiomuseum site and confirmed it's *65!!!*....so???
> 
> ...


 

 Does anyone with the adapters want a free set of 1635 to try LOL. Just remember don't blame me if you shrink Elise.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Does anyone with the adapters want a free set of 1635 to try LOL. Just remember don't blame me if you shrink Elise.


 
  
 I have the adapters coming.
  
 Sure I'll try 'em....be not afraid 
  
  
 PM sent
  
 .


----------



## UntilThen

OK JV has volunteered to be the guinea ....remember if they are better than ECC31 send it back my way again LOL. Just kidding. It's yours to enjoy or moan hahahaha. Please please check with Lukasz first. I don't want you to destroy your Elise.


----------



## hypnos1

Update on the mind-scrambling front...anyone out there with some DIY ability wanting to 'have a go' *MUST AT ALL COSTS* get hold of some FDD20s - with another 20+ hours on them they are now *AT LEAST AS GOOD AS THE ECC31s*, with a nice dash of C3g magic thrown in!...especially its treble, MINUS JV's "metallic" element.
  
 My suspicions have materialised big time...bass is now pretty well a match for the 31s, and the mids have come through just the same. And to a degree I never imagined possible...to say I am totally blown away (yet again!) is the understatement of the year. To be honest, I was not expecting such a dramatic change/improvement. And all for the paltry sum of *8 Euros* each...thanks to mordy's steering to a German ebayer's listing of 3 tubes for 25 Euros, which although listed as 'used' come wrapped in original packaging with unbroken securing label!!
  
 I apologise profusely for ranting like this about a tube that isn't appropriate for most folks, but I just had to share the utter joy, amazement and disbelief I am presently experiencing...sorry...


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> OK JV has volunteered to be the guinea ....remember if they are better than ECC31 send it back my way again LOL. Just kidding. It's yours to enjoy or moan hahahaha. Please please check with Lukasz first. I don't want you to destroy your Elise.


 
  
 Based on G's comments above, I have no fear. 
 If the gain is more than Elise can handle, it should be apparent in the sound, very quickly.  I have a $20.00 pair of 6080's I can use when first trying.
  
 Whenever I have asked Lukasz about unapproved tubes, he replies:  "Not tested, and not on the approved list".  I'm sure they are too busy assembling amps to test all the tubs that nutty tube rollers' come up with 
  
 .


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> Update on the mind-scrambling front...anyone out there with some DIY ability wanting to 'have a go' *MUST AT ALL COSTS* get hold of some FDD20s - with another 20+ hours on them they are now *AT LEAST AS GOOD AS THE ECC31s*, with a nice dash of C3g magic thrown in!...especially its treble, MINUS JV's "metallic" element.
> 
> My suspicions have materialised big time...bass is now pretty well a match for the 31s, and the mids have come through just the same. And to a degree I never imagined possible...to say I am totally blown away (yet again!) is the understatement of the year. To be honest, I was not expecting such a dramatic change/improvement. And all for the paltry sum of *8 Euros* each...thanks to mordy's steering to a German ebayer's listing of 3 tubes for 25 Euros, which although listed as 'used' come wrapped in original packaging with unbroken securing label!!
> 
> I apologise profusely for ranting like this about a tube that isn't appropriate for most folks, but I just had to share the utter joy, amazement and disbelief I am presently experiencing...sorry...


 
  
 No apologies needed and I believe you are having a "Joybringer" moment!  I feel the same about 6N7G (in ST envelope) - I like the GM's better than the older French one's...they have a bottom note that is thicker/fuller...
  
 Yeah for US brave ones 
 And yes, thanks, Mordy 
  
 .


----------



## UntilThen

Hypnos1 I'm not following you on this one even though I have a specialised car battery from the days of competing in car sound systems.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Hypnos1 I'm not following you on this one even though I have a specialised car battery from the days of competing in car sound systems.


 
  
 H1's FDD20 is said to be the 6N7G (in ST envelope) but with a 12v heater and very different base.  He made a custom adapter to enable external heating, so he could use it in the Elise.
  
 .


----------



## UntilThen

Yes he's doing some ingenious stuff there. I'm quite happy for the spotlight to be shifted away from ECC31 so that the price will drop.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> hypnos1 said:
> 
> 
> > ps. Re my reply to gibosi concerning the 1635, I personally would check with Lukasz about that VERY high gain...just not worth taking any more chances than we already are, lol!
> ...


----------



## UntilThen

My den


----------



## gibosi

Yes, I missed seeing the mu of 65 for the 1635 on the Radiomuseum's page. But what I don't understand is where did they find that value? It does not appear on RCA's datasheet and this is the only datasheet I can find online:
  
 http://www.shinjo.info/frank/sheets/049/1/1635.pdf
  
 But even if the mu is 65, the 6SL7 has a  mu of 70 and it works fine in my Glenn OTL and other similar 6SN7/6AS7 amps. And therefore, I can't imagine that running 6SL7s in the Elise could possibly present a problem. Ask Lukasz if the 6SL7 is OK in the Elise. And if it is, the 1635 will be fine as well.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> Yes, I missed seeing the mu of 65 for the 1635 on the Radiomuseum's page. But what I don't understand is where did they find that value? It does not appear on RCA's datasheet and this is the only datasheet I can find online:
> 
> http://www.shinjo.info/frank/sheets/049/1/1635.pdf
> 
> But even if the mu is 65, the 6SL7 has a  mu of 70 and it works fine in my Glenn OTL and other similar 6SN7/6AS7 amps. And therefore, I can't imagine that running 6SL7s in the Elise could possibly present a problem. Ask Lukasz if the 6SL7 is OK in the Elise. And if it is, the 1635 will be fine as well.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Here is another "Joybringer's cousin" that can probably be used:
  
http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2013/02/tube-of-month-6a6.html
  
 Uses a 7 pin base....I see no commercially available adapters, however...
  
 --JV--


----------



## nephilim

mikelap said:


> ive been using some tubes with glass particles inside for a year now and they are still working fine


 

 Thanks Mike. That would sort out the debris. Regarding the speckles the seller told me 
  
_"Actually the white freckles on the inside of the tubes are a by product of the regimented testing the tubes undertake.

The tiny white specks are inert silicate flakes from the mica nearest the top getter - which has been heated during testing."_
  
 Does this make sense?
  
 And what about the faint / almost translucent getter flash?
  
 It does sound good, though )


----------



## agnostic1er

Hi guys,
  
 A few impressions about my new tubes:
 First the 6080 Sylvanias power tubes: frankly, using the same drivers, I could'nt hear any differences between them and the stock Svetlana 6AS7G (6N13S); perhaps a bit of extended treble range from the Svetlana but not sure at all...
  
 Now, about the Foton 6N8S drivers: those are very different from my Jan Sylvania 6SN7 WGTA selected by Lukasz: sub-bass is a tad lower in level, bass is on par but treble is at the same time a bit recessed and a bit less extended; the main difference is in the middle range: foton are a bit more dynamical and above all much more present, particularly in the middle and high-mids; this translates in a better transition with the treble range and gives the voices and all the instruments tones a more vivid and strong presentation; in conjunction with my HD800 this gives much more presence and this character pleases me a lot even if the global sound is a tad less airy and refined.
 So, given that these Foton are somewhere similar but less renowned than 50's metal base Melz, I ordered a pair of those ( used but test strong for only 35$) ; they will come at my home soon.
 So stay tuned!


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Here is another "Joybringer's cousin" that can probably be used:
> 
> http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2013/02/tube-of-month-6a6.html
> 
> Uses a 7 pin base....I see no commercially available adapters, however...


 
  
 A quick email to your favorite eBay adapter vendor is usually all it takes. For example, when I wanted to use the FDD20 there were no adapters listed on eBay. I contacted one vendor and asked if they could build an adapter for me, FDD20 to 12SN7. The answer was "yes" and within a few days there were three different vendors offering this adapter! lol
  
 I suggest something like this:
  
 ~~~~
  
 Can you build an adapter, 6A6 on top and 6SN7 on the bottom?
  
 http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6a6.html
  
 The 6A6 uses a medium 7-pin base (U7B / UX7) 
  
 Connect 6A6 common cathode to both 6SN7 cathodes.
  
 Thanks!


----------



## gibosi

nephilim said:


> Thanks Mike. That would sort out the debris. Regarding the speckles the seller told me
> 
> _"Actually the white freckles on the inside of the tubes are a by product of the regimented testing the tubes undertake.
> 
> ...


 
  
 As long as the tube is working fine, this is nothing to worry about. It is not uncommon to find small particles of glass and mica inside tubes. And it is not unusual to see a fair amount of variability in the amount of getter flash. So my advice: Relax and enjoy.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> A quick email to your favorite eBay adapter vendor is usually all it takes. For example, when I wanted to use the FDD20 there were no adapters listed on eBay. I contacted one vendor and asked if they could build an adapter for me, FDD20 to 12SN7. The answer was "yes" and within a few days there were three different vendors offering this adapter! lol


 
  
  
 Great idea   And done!!


----------



## UntilThen

I'm amused that the brief to Lukasz was to build an amp that uses the 6SN7 as drivers but we're exploring other tubes. 
  
 I'm using this with Chatham 6AS7G on the Darkvoice 336se now and it sound so lovely. Katherine Jenkins my fav opera singer sounding so warm, lush and intimate.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> I'm amused that the brief to Lukasz was to build an amp that uses the 6SN7 as drivers but we're exploring other tubes.
> 
> I'm using this with Chatham 6AS7G on the Darkvoice 336se now and it sound so lovely. Katherine Jenkins my fav opera singer sounding so warm, lush and intimate.


 
  
 The pictured JAN VT-231's...are RCA?
  
 .


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> A quick email to your favorite eBay adapter vendor is usually all it takes. For example, when I wanted to use the FDD20 there were no adapters listed on eBay. I contacted one vendor and asked if they could build an adapter for me, FDD20 to 12SN7. The answer was "yes" and within a few days there were three different vendors offering this adapter! lol
> 
> I suggest something like this:
> 
> ...


 
  
 Got reply...think this means he cannot make the 6a6 to 6SN7:
  
*"Hi,last month some customers asked ,because 6a6 socket same fu29 tube socket ,too big not easy make it.*
*Thanks!"*​  ​ ???​  ​  ​


----------



## UntilThen

Yes they are. CRC = RCA. I would have preferred the Ken Rad (Kentucky Radio Company) black version but they are more expensive.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Yes they are. CRC = RCA. I would have preferred the Ken Rad (Kentucky Radio Company) black version but they are more expensive.


 
  
 Nice...I have a set of the RCA coming from AUS 
  
 Mine are labeled 6SN7GT and date coded 1943 and 1948.  Hope they sing like crazy!  Seller sent them 'slow boat' no tracking number..a long time yet, to get here - ugh!
  
 .


----------



## MIKELAP

untilthen said:


> Yes they are. CRC = RCA. I would have preferred the Ken Rad (Kentucky Radio Company) black version but they are more expensive.


 
 Like these, got 2 pairs for $80.00 CA shipped. Keep looking you never know


----------



## Shaffer

agnostic1er said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...




Interesting you mention the Fotons, I have a set, and received another set of differently constructed Russian 6N8S drivers from '69 today. Had them running most of the day and just sat down to listen. Absolutely subterranean bass. These things dig deep. Good sense of space, excellent projection of depth, very good sense of clarity and (impressive) dynamics. A touch thick in the lower-mids, but it could be a reflection of a non-burned-in tube.


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Got reply...think this means he cannot make the 6a6 to 6SN7:
> 
> *"Hi,last month some customers asked ,because 6a6 socket same fu29 tube socket ,too big not easy make it.*
> *Thanks!"*​


 
  
 I don't think they are the same....  The FU29, or 829 power tetrode uses a B7A socket, which is quite large. The 6A6 uses a U7B, so not the same...  You might want to try another vendor....


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> I don't think they are the same....  The FU29, or 829 power tetrode uses a B7A socket, which is quite large. The 6A6 uses a U7B, so not the same...  You might want to try another vendor....


 
  
 Will see if I can clarify with the vendor I already spoke to....


----------



## UntilThen

mikelap said:


> Like these, got 2 pairs for $80.00 CA shipped. Keep looking you never know


 
 Mike those are cheaper than my RCA smoke glass which I paid US$86 !!!!


----------



## UntilThen

shaffer said:


> Interesting you mention the Fotons, I have a set, and received another set of differently constructed Russian 6N8S drivers from '69 today. Had them running most of the day and just sat down to listen. Absolutely subterranean bass. These things dig deep. Good sense of space, excellent projection of depth, very good sense of clarity and (impressive) dynamics. A touch thick in the lower-mids, but it could be a reflection of a non-burned-in tube.


 

 My 6N8S and C3gs from Renderman have landed in Australia somewhere and subterranean bass sounds good.
  
 A pair of 6N23P Russian Rockets 1975 just arrived. Let's see what these mighty mouse do in the DV and Aune T1.


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Will see if I can clarify with the vendor I already spoke to....


 
  
 To give you more data...
  
 Here is an amp using FU29 as power tubes:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUDIOROMY-FU29-x-2-Vacuum-Valve-Tube-Hi-end-Tube-Integrated-Amplifier-110v-230v-/290821774742
  
 Here is an FU29 socket:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2PCS-7PIN-B7A-Vacuum-Tube-Sockets-For-6C33-FU29-829B-832A-826-TM-30-GU19-TT25-/320966462246
  
 And here is a 6A6 socket:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-EF-Johnson-227-U7B-Large-7-Pin-Ceramic-Tube-Socket-for-1625-6A6-6E6-53-837-/361372279435


----------



## JazzVinyl

Came home from work and popped in my best 6SN7's on a new age CD that has lots of voices, small percussion instruments, and various instruments that are purposely not
"out front" in the mix.

Listened carefully, then listened again trading the 1940's Joybringers 6N7G (in ST envelope)...

6SN7 = sounds good!
6N7G (in ST envelope) = sounds great!

It's like going from a recording with an okay mix, to a recording with a superb mix.

The Joybringers, brought Joy....again. 


--JV--


----------



## UntilThen

Wait till you hear a pair of these Russian Rockets 6N23P  They sound amazing on my Darkvoice with Chatham 6AS7G
  
 Holy cow these are really good. How clear? Crystal !!!  and the bass how does this tiny dancer churn out so much bass !!!


----------



## Shaffer

A 6DJ8-like tube doesn't seem to like my Elise, so I'm hesitant to take a chance.

ATM, I'm playing small signal tubes from '57. BNIB NOS, dinky, little, bright suckers. They sound fantastic! This time I'm being selfish and not telling anyone what they are. The seller has a few left and I'm buying them all. 

There's another small signal tube that sounded very good in the DV and I bought a match for it today to try in the Elise. If it works out, similarly, we may have another contender.


----------



## UntilThen

JV the 1635 are on their way. The seller is more than happy to divert to USA instead of Australia as he's in Illinois. I'll pm the tracking number later.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> JV the 1635 are on their way. The seller is more than happy to divert to USA instead of Australia as he's in Illinois. I'll pm the tracking number later.


 

 Very nice!  I will report the sonic findngs 
  
 Thank you!!
  
 .


----------



## UntilThen

Shaffer what are the problems with those 6DJ8 on the Elise.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> To give you more data...
> 
> Here is an amp using FU29 as power tubes:
> 
> ...


 

 Heard back from the Vendor in China.  Says he has already looked into it, and the 6A6 sockets he can get, are too long in one dimension and he cannot figure a remedy to get them to fit in the 6SN7 portion.  Says sorry, no can do...
  
 He sent a photo of the football shaped ones like in your link...but I see these, and they look like they would work?
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-7PIN-U7B-Vacuum-Tube-Socket-2A7-FU-25-53-59-826-832-Bottom-Chassis-Mount-/221199656381?hash=item338086e5bd
  
 .


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Shaffer what are the problems with those 6DJ8 on the Elise.




A very loud hum in my case.


----------



## gibosi

jazzvinyl said:


> Heard back from the Vendor in China.  Says he has already looked into it, and the 6A6 sockets he can get, are too long in one dimension and he cannot figure a remedy to get them to fit in the 6SN7 portion.  Says sorry, no can do...
> 
> He sent a photo of the football shaped ones like in your link...but I see these, and they look like they would work?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-7PIN-U7B-Vacuum-Tube-Socket-2A7-FU-25-53-59-826-832-Bottom-Chassis-Mount-/221199656381?hash=item338086e5bd


 
  
 In my opinion, the round sockets you linked to should work fine. My feeling is this vendor simply doesn't want to make the adapters. Again, I would suggest contacting another vendor.
  
 Cheers


----------



## UntilThen

shaffer said:


> A very loud hum in my case.




Oh...mine was whisper quiet on the DV. I have never heard a driver tube that made me sit up with my eyes wide open except the 5998 power tube.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Oh...mine was whisper quiet on the DV. I have never heard a driver tube that made me sit up with my eyes wide open except the 5998 power tube.




The tubes are dead quiet in my DV, too. 

Just tried a 6922 and two different 6DJ8s with a 6CG7 adapter, in lieu of a 6DJ8 adapter, in the Elise. Much less hum, but it's still there. No worth it for me, especially with so many other even less expensive options to play with.


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> Very nice!  I will report the sonic findngs
> 
> Thank you!!
> 
> .




As long as it's not sonic explosions I might hear you from downunder.


----------



## UntilThen

Guys if your wife wants to get you the NAD D1050 dac/amp for Christmas would you be:-
  
 A. Happy
 B. Sad
 C. Are you kidding me?


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> As long as it's not sonic explosions I might hear you from downunder.


 

 Nothing is gonna 'splode


----------



## UntilThen

Well JV any thoughts on the NAD D1050?


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Well JV any thoughts on the NAD D1050?


 
 No, sorry, unfamiliar with it, or any recent DAC's. I'm sure it's nice.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> mordy said:
> 
> 
> > Does anybody know if the JAN CRC 1635 tube can be used in the Elise?
> ...


 

 Found a few 1635 here in Montreal 2 RCA and 1 Motorola haven't seen them yet so dont know if Motorola is same as RCA will give them a try they seem ok to use in my WA22 since 6SL7 are similar but only if i ever receive my d.......m  adapters going on 5 weeks still not here .


----------



## gibosi

Motorola didn't manufacture tubes, so my guess is that it too is an RCA.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> Motorola didn't manufacture tubes, so my guess is that it too is an RCA.


 

 Looks like my tube guy doesnt know that the Motorola is half the price of the RCA's lol. Shhhhhh !


----------



## JazzVinyl

mikelap said:


> Looks like my tube guy doesnt know that the Motorola is half the price of the RCA's lol. Shhhhhh !


 
  
 I love it what that happens 
  
 Mike, I loved your "Steam-Punk" adapters you made for LD amps.  I am surprised you didn't make a Steam-Punk ECC31->6SN7 adapter 
  
 If Steam Punk adapters were avail commercially....I'd HAVE to have some...
  
 .


----------



## MIKELAP

jazzvinyl said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like my tube guy doesnt know that the Motorola is half the price of the RCA's lol. Shhhhhh !
> ...


 

 Since i am not equiped to machine the body of the adapters the sizes needed to be perfect from the get go .For a octal socket to fit  i had to grind  the copper fitting. very time consuming. What i needed is this a Mini Lathe .


----------



## mordy

Hi,
  
 So many new driver tubes suddenly appearing that I am getting a little confused. However, it looks like we need to wait a little to get a consensus on which ones are the best ones....
  
 Re the 6N7 metal tubes, did somebody try them in the Elise? It seems that they are less expensive since there is no tube glow. Looking at pictures of them, it seems that some have the paint flaking off and maybe even rusting(?) - just don't know. Is there a glass bulb underneath?
  
 Have not been able to see any recommendations from people who tried them (except one post) - does anybody have any information or links re the 6N7 metal tubes?
  
 Thinking of it, I can live happily with the C3g tubes that are all covered with an aluminum case - it does not bother me how the tube looks as long as it sounds great.


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> Hi,
> 
> So many new driver tubes suddenly appearing that I am getting a little confused. However, it looks like we need to wait a little to get a consensus on which ones are the best ones....
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello Mordy...
  
 Yes, I tried 2 pair of the 6N7 metal tubes.
  
 Nothing special and they "fall away" at both ends of the audio spectrum.  I would not bother with them.
  
 Only the ST envelope 6N7G's, sound "special" in my Elise.
  
 .


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Hypnos1 I'm not following you on this one even though I have a specialised car battery from the days of competing in car sound systems.


 
  
 Actually, UT...from the look of the FDD20 to 12SN7 adapter available from ebayer xulingmrs for $19, it should be a piece of cake to simply wedge the new heater wires between the tube's pins and the socket terminals, and snip off the base's heater pins...no need even to drill through the adapter to access the heater wires...EASY!!  And your special car battery should be a wonderful 12/13V source, lol!...tempted?!...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...   Pic of said adapter  :
  

  
  


jazzvinyl said:


> H1's FDD20 is said to be the 6N7G (in ST envelope) but with a 12v heater and very different base.  He made a custom adapter to enable external heating, so he could use it in the Elise.
> 
> .


 
  
 Hi JV.
  
 As I mentioned above...looks like pretty well anyone with minimal skill could actually do the necessary mod - even without a fancy battery, lol! As I posted a while back, a very cheap 240/120V to 12V DC transformer for strip LED lights/CCTV does the power supply job a treat...so long as a simple link is added between the mains Earth in and the neg DC out terminals...
  
 And the German ebayer who is listing the 3 'used' tubes for 25 Euros has been regularly relisting them shortly after the previous sale, so presumably has a fair stock of them! (And they in fact look new and unused - still in their unwrapped wrappers!...the last 2 listings at least, that is).
  


untilthen said:


> *I'm amused that the brief to Lukasz was to build an amp that uses the 6SN7 as drivers but we're exploring other tubes. *
> 
> I'm using this with Chatham 6AS7G on the Darkvoice 336se now and it sound so lovely. Katherine Jenkins my fav opera singer sounding so warm, lush and intimate.


 
  
 Yo, UT...TOTALLY CRAZY, lol!...once the rolling bug has hit, you're LOST!! - down that 'rabbit hole' gibosi speaks of...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






  


shaffer said:


> A 6DJ8-like tube doesn't seem to like my Elise, so I'm hesitant to take a chance.
> 
> *ATM, I'm playing small signal tubes from '57. BNIB NOS, dinky, little, bright suckers. They sound fantastic! This time I'm being selfish and not telling anyone what they are. The seller has a few left and I'm buying them all.*
> 
> There's another small signal tube that sounded very good in the DV and I bought a match for it today to try in the Elise. If it works out, similarly, we may have another contender.


 
 Aaaww, S...now you're being nearly as cruel as me with my FDD20s, lol!!


----------



## JazzVinyl

We are still waiting for a 2nd juror to weigh in on to the ST envelope 6N7G's...I think that will be Shaffer, when he gets his tubes and adapters in.
 I am hoping they will work in his Elise, since we know he had HUM problems with C3g and now 6DJ8.
  
 We have heard H1 say the FDD20's sound great, and they are supposed to be 6N7G (ST envelope) for 12volt heaters and a different base.
  
 .


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> metal 6N7 - Is there a glass bulb underneath?


 
  
 There is _no_ glass envelope underneath the metal 6N7's


----------



## MIKELAP

Finally received adapters


----------



## JazzVinyl

mikelap said:


> Finally received adapters


 
  
 Yeah!  Are those 6N7G's (ST Envelope) in place of 6SN7's?


----------



## MIKELAP

jazzvinyl said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Finally received adapters
> ...


 

 Those are the ECC31.


----------



## mordy

Hi JV,
  
 Thanks for your answers - will skip the metal 6N7 tubes. There are Russian 6N7G equivalents called 6N7S - does anybody have any experience with these? (Can be found very inexpensive)
  
 Or are the Coke Bottle tubes the only way to go?


----------



## JazzVinyl

mordy said:


> Hi JV,
> 
> Thanks for your answers - will skip the metal 6N7 tubes. There are Russian 6N7G equivalents called 6N7S - does anybody have any experience with these? (Can be found very inexpensive)
> 
> Or are the Coke Bottle tubes the only way to go?


 
  
 Hello Mordy...
 Have not tried the Russian 6N7S, but have tried all the styles (non soviet brands) and yes, Coke Bottle is the only way to go.
  
 .


----------



## JazzVinyl

mikelap said:


> Those are the ECC31.


 
  
 Excellent!   They look just like 6N7G's!!


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Hi JV,
> 
> Thanks for your answers - will skip the metal 6N7 tubes. There are Russian 6N7G equivalents called 6N7S - does anybody have any experience with these? (Can be found very inexpensive)
> 
> Or are the Coke Bottle tubes the only way to go?


 
  
 Hi mordy.
  
 Your question has prompted me to finally make a long-held observation (already taken as gospel by many, I should imagine!!)...ie - I don't think it can be coincidence that SO MANY of the best-performing tubes turn out to be the ST shape "Coke Bottles"...viz ECC31/32/CV181; now the 6N7G (_especially_ the gorgeous FDD20!); Chatham 6AS7G; Tung Sol 5998/WE 421A; GEC/Osram 6AS7G variants, etc. etc. etc. And they LOOK so much nicer too (in _my_ eyes, anyway! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). LONG LIVE THE COKE BOTTLE!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!


----------



## aqsw

Wow. 206 pages in this thread. About 30 -35 units sold. Just think when this amp becomes popular!!


----------



## mordy

Hi aqsw,
  
 IMHO only some 20 units have been delivered.....
  
 Hi h1,
  
 Definitively something to the Coke Bottle shape!


----------



## Shaffer

aqsw said:


> Wow. 206 pages in this thread. About 30 -35 units sold. Just think when this amp becomes popular!!




Time to raise the price. Seriously. 

Feliks is a very small, family-owned company. Too many orders will sink them. I can go into all the reasons for it, if anyone cares. I'd strongly suggest putting on Elise's price on par with its Asian rivals or higher. It's either that or expand production. The latter is far more difficult to execute effectively.


----------



## UntilThen

And SOS wants to buy a used Elise at full retail price.

I think a used burn in preloved Elise has just doubled in price.


----------



## aqsw

Hey Guys,
  
 Just a couple questions about 6F8G tubes.
  
 Shows they are compatable.
  
 1: Do I need an adaptor?
 2: Any reviews? (How do they sound)
 3: Best Manufacturer?
  
 Thanks


----------



## JazzVinyl

aqsw said:


> Just a couple questions about 6F8G tubes.
> 
> Shows they are compatable.
> 
> 1: Do I need an adaptor?


 
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6F8G-to-6SN7-tube-adapter-adaptor-6SN7-to-6F8G-socket-converter-new-1-piece-/160909455868
  
 They look really cool...!!!


----------



## gibosi

aqsw said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Just a couple questions about 6F8G tubes.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, a 6F8G to 6SN7 adapter is required. In terms of sound, most sound about the same as their 6SN7 counterparts. The main exception is the Nation Union. In my opinion, the NU 6F8G is better than the common black-glass NU 6SN7.
  
 One advantage is 6F8G are often cheaper than 6SN7s. For example the BGRP Tung Sol. In my very personal opinion, the TS and NU 6F8G are the best. But I would encourage you to try other brands as well. 
  
 Also, 6C8G are very similar, use the same adapter, and are often even cheaper.


----------



## UntilThen

Thought I stumbled into a Coca Cola forum.


----------



## JazzVinyl

I think we need to start a database of Elise Compatible drivers / adapters / sound impressions


----------



## aqsw

jazzvinyl said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6F8G-to-6SN7-tube-adapter-adaptor-6SN7-to-6F8G-socket-converter-new-1-piece-/160909455868
> 
> They look really cool...!!!


 
 I think they look cool too. Just bought a pair with adaptors. For a guy that really didn't want to roll very much. I'm sure buying alot of different tubes and adaptors. I don't even get my amp till November!!


----------



## JazzVinyl

aqsw said:


> I think they look cool too. Just bought a pair with adaptors. For a guy that really didn't want to roll very much. I'm sure buying alot of different tubes and adaptors. I don't even get my amp till November!!


 
  
 HA!!  I said the exact same thing before my Elise arrived.  And I too, bought several tubes before she arrived 
  
 It's FUN!!!
  
 .


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> HA!!  I said the exact same thing before my Elise arrived.  And I too, bought several tubes before she arrived
> 
> It's FUN!!!
> 
> .




Yea, I did that, too. Apparently, didn't buy enough adapters.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> For a guy that really didn't want to roll very much. I'm sure buying alot of different tubes and adaptors. I don't even get my amp till November!!


 
 Welcome to the club aqsw. You should see the tubes and adapters I've already purchased.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> Yea, I did that, too. Apparently, didn't buy enough adapters.


 
  
 I am thinking of going to the UK and getting some hypnotherapy from H1...see if I can be "cured"


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Actually, UT...from the look of the FDD20 to 12SN7 adapter available from ebayer xulingmrs for $19, it should be a piece of cake to simply wedge the new heater wires between the tube's pins and the socket terminals, and snip off the base's heater pins...no need even to drill through the adapter to access the heater wires...EASY!!  And your special car battery should be a wonderful 12/13V source, lol!...tempted?!...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 H1 that is indeed a very nice adapter from a seller that I'd recommend highly but I have enough adapters. I have 5 already. !


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> Welcome to the club aqsw. You should see the tubes and adapters I've already purchased.


 
 Thanks UntilThen.
  
 My wife is going to see all these tubes coming in, and know somethings up. May as well tell her now!!


----------



## MIKELAP

jazzvinyl said:


> shaffer said:
> 
> 
> > Yea, I did that, too. Apparently, didn't buy enough adapters.
> ...


 

 Good luck with that ive been at it only several years and have been holding back ,now when i tell my wife i think that does it tubewize she laughs , then she cries ,kitting . did i say good luck! This is my modest stash


----------



## aqsw

jazzvinyl said:


> I think we need to start a database of Elise Compatible drivers / adapters / sound impressions


 
 Please do!!!
  
 I will be happy to contribute when I finally get my amp.


----------



## UntilThen

I was wondering how everyone keeps their tubes. You keep them in those nice sturdy boxes Mike. I bet they're well padded inside.


----------



## MIKELAP

untilthen said:


> I was wondering how everyone keeps their tubes. You keep them in those nice sturdy boxes Mike. I bet they're well padded inside.


 

 Yes ,those tube caddy's are padded by plenty of other tubes lol.


----------



## nephilim

I love the mirror... you just need to buy one tube to have a pair


----------



## MIKELAP

Been listening to those ECC31 types and first impression so far, is that i prefer #1 tube in picture has  more bass then the staggered style plates on top of #2 picture will see in time if they even out basswize                                                          #1


----------



## JazzVinyl

mikelap said:


> Good luck with that ive been at it only several years and have been holding back ,now when i tell my wife i think that does it tubewize she laughs , then she cries ,kitting . did i say good luck! This is my modest stash


 
  
 This is perfect!!  Take out all the tubes, put in your clothes...buy ticket to UK, show up H1's house....
  
 Get hypnotherapy, in hopes of a cure....
  
 .
 .


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> This is perfect!!  Take out all the tubes, put in your clothes...buy ticket to UK, show up H1's house....
> 
> Get hypnotherapy, in hopes of a cure....
> 
> ...


 
  
 Would love to oblige, JV...but I fear this particular area of addictive/borderline OCD behaviour(!) is one I would have to pass on...can't even "cure" myself, lol!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ....no hope!...


----------



## UntilThen

Goodness me Mike looks like you've more tubes than Gibosi and they're all neatly hand written labelled and stashed.
  
 Now I'm surprised by your findings on the plates style of the ECC31. Wondered what mine is.


----------



## Shaffer

mikelap said:


> Good luck with that ive been at it only several years and have been holding back ,now when i tell my wife i think that does it tubewize she laughs , then she cries ,kitting . did i say good luck! This is my modest stash




OK...I'm pretty blown away....

Amazing. The storage, as well.


----------



## whirlwind

mikelap said:


> jazzvinyl said:
> 
> 
> > shaffer said:
> ...


 
 Nice tube caddies, Mike.
  
 I sure wish that I had the two back that I got rid of.
  
 They were from my fathers tv shop......I sure could use them now, along with  the tube tester that I got rid of.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> Feliks is a very small, family-owned company. Too many orders will sink them. I can go into all the reasons for it, if anyone cares. I'd strongly suggest putting on Elise's price on par with its Asian rivals or higher. It's either that or expand production. The latter is far more difficult to execute effectively.


 
  
 Lets hope they are smart enough turn the small success into a larger one, like these folks did:
  
http://www.businessinsurance.org/10-mom-and-pop-businesses-that-turned-into-empires/?doing_wp_cron=1442962675.5646879673004150390625
  
 Cheers!
  
 .


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> Lets hope they are smart enough turn the small success into a larger one, like these folks did:
> 
> http://www.businessinsurance.org/10-mom-and-pop-businesses-that-turned-into-empires/?doing_wp_cron=1442962675.5646879673004150390625
> 
> Cheers!




I'm not sure Feliks wants to get bigger. Regardless. the idea in the short term almost makes one grasp for air.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> I'm not sure Feliks wants to get bigger. Regardless. the idea in the short term almost makes one grasp for air.


 
 Interesting.
  
 Lukasz told me they had (as a family) been making amps in small production mode, for a lot of years. And that the desire now, was to expand their reach beyond Poland, and the Eastern EU.
  
 I wish them much luck.   
 .


----------



## Shaffer

jazzvinyl said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Lukasz told me they had (as a family) been making amps in small production mode, for a lot of years. And that the desire now, was to expand their reach beyond Poland, and the Eastern EU.
> 
> ...




Lukasz told me explicitly that he didn't want the company to get bigger. That's beside the point. We're talking short term here. The link you posted is as applicable to the topic as Ford's original assembly line. Now, can we please get back to discussing amps and tubes?


----------



## UntilThen

Renderman your tubes arrived finally   Your packaging is better looking than the tubes.  One of the best packaging I've seen.
  
 Of course I can't test the C3gs without Elise except to look at it. Tried the Fotons but they hum badly on my DV. Thanks very much anyway for including them as freebies. I'll test it on Elise later.
  
 Regarding my 5998 refund, eBay has now step in after 5 days of non response from the deregistered seller. I was asked to wait another 5 days for seller to send a refund label after which if nothing happens eBay will refund my monies in full including shipping cost.
  
 So shop at eBay with confidence for your tubes. You have a money back guarantee on defective goods. And of course if you buy from Renderman, he will pack it better than any eBay sellers.


----------



## JazzVinyl

shaffer said:


> Lukasz told me explicitly that he didn't want the company to get bigger. That's beside the point. We're talking short term here. The link you posted is as applicable to the topic as Ford's original assembly line. Now, can we please get back to discussing amps and tubes?


 
  
 In an email from Lukasz'sl:
  
 "Now the ambition is to go broader and hopefully with products like Elise it will be successful."
  
 Best regards
 Lukasz & the Team
  
 .


----------



## hypnos1

Guys - off main topic(s), I know (and this is always part of thread life, lol!), but there is understandable confusion going on here...so my own thoughts I give  :
  
  


shaffer said:


> Feliks is a very small, family-owned company. Too many orders will sink them. I can go into all the reasons for it, if anyone cares. I'd strongly suggest putting on Elise's price on par with its Asian rivals or higher. It's either that or expand production. The latter is far more difficult to execute effectively.


 
  
 Unfortunately S, you are right - they are reaching a milestone whereby some extremely difficult decisions will have to be made fairly soon. Such is the dilemna faced, of course, by all similar-sized enterprises when contemplating future direction/expansion...and I do not envy them these decisions. (Perhaps a brave-hearted Venture Capitalist will throw them a (temporary?!) lifeline...but I wouldn't count on it, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





). Any mention of a further price hike at the moment would, I fear however, be _extremely_ hard to digest!!
  
 The confusion factor comes from _your_ contact with Lukasz, _JV_'s contact with him, and _my own_...viz below :
  
  


jazzvinyl said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Lukasz told me they had (as a family) been making amps in small production mode, for a lot of years. And that the desire now, was to expand their reach beyond Poland, and the Eastern EU.
> 
> ...


 
  
 I can understand your take on their desires now, JV... actually NONE of us can really have the slightest clue as to their position - certainly from dear Lukasz's communications...
 I personally have had _both_ sides of this scenario mentioned in 'mixed' message format. I suspect there will be conflicting views within the company, to say the least!
  
 And so all we can do is wait to see how things develop over the rest of this year - or longer - and then see whose views triumph. Whatever, it will be very interesting to follow such developments. I can only hope that whichever course they take, they manage to continue to survive in a rather overcrowded market...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 Anyway, we ourselves move on...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Cheers everyone...and HAPPY LISTENING!


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Hypnos1, wisely said. I hope I didn't buy the tube amp just to look at it or to buy tubes so that I can caress it to feel the glass smoothness.
  
 Happy listening to my music and making new friends with like minded interest on this forum is my aim.


----------



## UntilThen

These are my latest obsessions. 6N23P Russian Rocket Logo next to Chatham 6AS7G. These tiny tubes packs a punch. So much bass. I'm really amazed.


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> And so all we can do is wait to see how things develop over the rest of this year - or longer - and then see whose views triumph. Whatever, it will be very interesting to follow such developments. I can only hope that whichever course they take, they manage to continue to survive in a rather overcrowded market...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks H1,
  
 Hopefully people still care about quality.  The current production method had that, in spades.  If that remains their main focus,  Feliks Audio, will do fine.
  
 .


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> These are my latest obsessions. 6N23P Russian Rocket Logo next to Chatham 6AS7G. These tiny tubes packs a punch. So much bass. I'm really amazed.


 
  
 I assume your "Rockets" are Voskhods? What year?


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> Thanks H1,
> 
> Hopefully people still care about quality.  The current production method had that, in spades.  If that remains their main focus,  Feliks Audio, will do fine.
> 
> .


 
  
 That they will always strive to maintain their high standards and quality I'm sure is guaranteed...thankfully. Whether they can do so without Shaffers comments re pricing is, however, another matter lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. We must thank our respective Gods to have been lucky enough to be blessed with Elise magic in the early days...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...and pray for a long life to come...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (the Feliks-Audio guys DESERVE it, to be sure.)


----------



## agnostic1er

shaffer said:


> Interesting you mention the Fotons, I have a set, and received another set of differently constructed Russian 6N8S drivers from '69 today. Had them running most of the day and just sat down to listen. Absolutely subterranean bass. These things dig deep. Good sense of space, excellent projection of depth, very good sense of clarity and (impressive) dynamics. A touch thick in the lower-mids, but it could be a reflection of a non-burned-in tube.


 
 Yes Shaffer, these Foton render a very nice mid range, with huge contour of notes/performers ending with super natural/true tones; I don't hear little thickness in the lower-mid with the HD800 because this can surely lacks a bit of spl in this range.
 Melz are on the way, I am very curious how they will sound vs the Foton; hope the same qualities with a tad more refinement; if yes, those ones will probably be my end game.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> I assume your "Rockets" are Voskhods? What year?


 

 How do I know it's Voskhods? It didn't say. The wordings are a bit faded. This was what was listed when I bought it.
  
 6N23P / E88CC / 6DJ8. Russian tubes Lot of 2 Rocket logo 1975 year
  
 I can make out CCCP inside a Pentagon shape logo with a star beneath that is missing the top pointy end and 6N23P X11-75 etched on the glass. OK I'm dumb I just described the Russian logo.


----------



## UntilThen

I just heard from Lukasz that I'm number 2 on the production line. My Elise that is not me lol.
  
 He said it shouldn't be too long. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	
















 
  
 And my better half came home and said I just ordered your NAD D1050.
  
 And Lukasz said he wouldn't recommend 6SL7  as a 6SN7 substitute. I didn't mention 6N7G or 1635. He probably would faint.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> I just heard from Lukasz that I'm number 2 on the production line. My Elise that is not me lol.
> 
> He said it shouldn't be too long.
> 
> ...


 

 And the first one,  down under!
  
 Congrats!!!


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> And the first one,  down under!
> 
> Congrats!!!


 

 Yes even though only 20 plus Elise has been produced she is a season traveller. Wonder if anyone from China ordered?


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> I just heard from Lukasz that I'm number 2 on the production line. My Elise that is not me lol.
> 
> He said it shouldn't be too long.
> 
> ...


 
 When did you place your order UT?


----------



## UntilThen

21st August and was told end of Sept delivery plus or minus 1 or 2 weeks. So pretty spot on.
  
 I still think it will be mid Oct before I get it. It has to travel a long way. !


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Thanks Hypnos1, wisely said. I hope I didn't buy the tube amp just to look at it or to buy tubes so that I can caress it to feel the glass smoothness.
> 
> Happy listening to my music and making new friends with like minded interest on this forum is my aim.


 
  
 Well, UT..._first_ you will look at her; _then_ you will caress her...and _then_?...better not say or it might just be censored, lol!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 At least I think I'm safe in saying _"you will not be disappointed, lol!"_...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And your closing statement holds true for ALL of us here, I believe I am _also_ safe in saying....CHEERS!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps.  Glad to hear your latest good news...


----------



## Suuup

I have finally received my Elise! I'm currently on my way home with her on the train, can't wait to hear her. I'm number 21.


----------



## JazzVinyl

suuup said:


> I have finally received my Elise! I'm currently on my way home with her on the train, can't wait to hear her. I'm number 21.




Wow!! Great!

Enjoy my friend!! Such good news!! Now the fun begins....!!!

.


----------



## hypnos1

suuup said:


> I have finally received my Elise! I'm currently on my way home with her on the train, can't wait to hear her. I'm number 21.


 
  
 Aaahhh...more good news. But Suuup - _please_ don't drop her on that train!!!
  
 Am very happy for you...


----------



## UntilThen

suuup said:


> I have finally received my Elise! I'm currently on my way home with her on the train, can't wait to hear her. I'm number 21.


 

 Suuup I can feel your excitement. Get home safely and remember the tubes are numbered don't mix it up.


----------



## Suuup

hypnos1 said:


> Aaahhh...more good news. But Suuup - _please_ don't drop her on that train!!!
> 
> Am very happy for you...



Don't you worry. If anything or anyone was to threaten my dear Elise, I'd become more ferocious than a mother bear whose cub is endangered.


----------



## hypnos1

suuup said:


> Don't you worry. If anything or anyone was to threaten my dear Elise, I'd become more ferocious than a mother bear whose cub is endangered.


 
  
 ...And that makes for one *MEAN* bear, lol!!...


----------



## Shaffer

suuup said:


> I have finally received my Elise! I'm currently on my way home with her on the train, can't wait to hear her. I'm number 21.




Congratulations! Nice s/n, too.


----------



## aqsw

suuup said:


> I have finally received my Elise! I'm currently on my way home with her on the train, can't wait to hear her. I'm number 21.


 
 Congrats, You lucky dog. Have fun!!


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Congrats, You lucky dog. Have fun!!


 

 He's a bear not a dog.


----------



## Suuup

One question. Where do I put the 6SN7 and where do I put the 6H13C?


----------



## UntilThen

6SN7 in front and the 6H13C behind with the amp facing you.
  
 Like this


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> How do I know it's Voskhods? It didn't say. The wordings are a bit faded. This was what was listed when I bought it.
> 
> 6N23P / E88CC / 6DJ8. Russian tubes Lot of 2 Rocket logo 1975 year
> 
> I can make out CCCP inside a Pentagon shape logo with a star beneath that is missing the top pointy end and 6N23P X11-75 etched on the glass. OK I'm dumb I just described the Russian logo.


 
  
 Yes indeed, those are 1975 Voskhod 6N23P with the sheet-metal getter support. One of my favorite tubes, for sure.


----------



## Suuup

Money For Nothing was entirely a new experience. A much better experience. 
  
 Edit: Why can't I stop smiling? Should I call a doctor?


----------



## JazzVinyl

suuup said:


> Money For Nothing was entirely a new experience. A much better experience.
> 
> Edit: Why can't I stop smiling? Should I call a doctor?


 
  
 Your on your way, suuup!!   Sonic heaven!
  
 Congrats again!


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> Yes indeed, those are 1975 Voskhod 6N23P with the sheet-metal getter support. One of my favorite tubes, for sure.


 

 I only discover I can use 6922 with adapter on a 6SN7 slot recently. Likewise the other way round with a 6SN7 to 6922 adapter which means I can use 6SN7 tubes on my Aune T1.


----------



## UntilThen

suuup said:


> Money For Nothing was entirely a new experience. A much better experience.
> 
> Edit: Why can't I stop smiling? Should I call a doctor?


 

 Go on Suuup tell us more. Any hum? Everything perfect physically? What does it sound like? Power? Smooth delivery? Large soundstage? You hear everything?


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> I only discover I can use 6922 with adapter on a 6SN7 slot recently. Likewise the other way round with a 6SN7 to 6922 adapter which means I can use 6SN7 tubes on my Aune T1.


 
  
 What do you think of your Aune, UT?


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> What do you think of your Aune, UT?


 

 It's a nice toy. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Quite fun for the price. You can roll tubes for the DAC.
  
 But it will be replaced in 10 days time when the NAD arrives.
  
 If you read the Eddie Current Zana Deux review you will find the reviewer using the Aune T1 as a DAC. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



 I find nothing wrong with it. Of course if you've tasted DAC costing 1k or more you'll think nothing of this. For me Head-Fi is a journey. I'll sample gears as I go along hopefully stopping at some point before I loose my sanity.


----------



## Suuup

Initial impression:

 When I received it, my first thought was "Wow, this is heavy!". When I got home and got a closer look at it, I noticed how sturdy it seems. It seems I could drop it from a 10 story building, and the only thing breaking would be the pavement. I have not noticed anything wrong with me Elise. It appears to have arrived unscathed. 
  
 The first music it ever played was about a minute of Your Latest Trick by Dire Straits (I play saxophone). First thought in my head was "Wow, it goes this deep?". I can feel the sound. I'm pretty sure that even if I was deaf, I'd be able to tell you if my T1's were playing or not. This was not at all the case before.
 Next song was Money For Nothing. I have not ever heard a guitar that smooth. It was pure joy. I could not help but turn it up a notch, even though I know it's not good for my ears.
 Next up was When You Say Nothing At All by Alison Krauss. Her voice was like pure silk being spun into my ears. 
 Next on the list was Amsterdam Arena by Harry Sacksioni (if you at all like acoustic guitars, try this one). Holy crap. Talk about soundstage? I've always loved that song because of its soundstage, but boy have I been in the dark. This is a whole other level. Not only is it wider, the most noticeable thing is how _precise_ it is. When I first got my T1's I thought this level of precision was as good as it would get. I could point in a direction and tell you that THAT is exactly where the music comes from. Now, I believe and can give you the exact longitude and latitude. 
  
 This may sound like I'm being hyperbolic. I'm not. To be honest, I didn't really believe Hypnos when he praised the Elise. Boy was I wrong. And boy, was he right. 
  
 /Mathias
  
 Edit: As an added benefit, the tubes run much hotter than I originally thought. It's amazing since I get free electricity, but have to pay for heat. Yay free heat.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> Renderman your tubes arrived finally   Your packaging is better looking than the tubes.  One of the best packaging I've seen.
> 
> Of course I can't test the C3gs without Elise except to look at it. Tried the Fotons but they hum badly on my DV. Thanks very much anyway for including them as freebies. I'll test it on Elise later.
> 
> ...


 
 Hi UntilThen,
  
 I'm glad you liked the packaging, I always try to do my best to package everything. Especially things that aren't made anymore, likevintage tubes 
  
 Your welcome re the extra tubes. To bad they hum on your DV (Did you do the Fitz mod?  they did not hum in my Elise so i'm sure they will be fine in yours as well.
  
 I hope your Elise arrives soon so you can enjoy the C3gs and Hypnos1s very well made adapters (just feel the weight!)


----------



## UntilThen

Suuup I love 1st impressions it comes from the heart. Those songs you chose are some of my favourites too.
  
 I'm still sceptical though. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I have to listen to Elise for myself and 3 weeks seems a very long time now after reading your first impressions.


----------



## UntilThen

renderman said:


> Hi UntilThen,
> 
> I'm glad you liked the packaging, I always try to do my best to package everything. Especially things that aren't made anymore, likevintage tubes
> 
> ...


 

 Didn't do the Fitz mod. The C3gs and the adapters are very nice looking. Indeed the adapters are heavy. I believe there's silver and gold in there. Again my thanks to you and H1.


----------



## jerick70

Hi Everyone,
  
 I'm seriously contemplating purchasing the Elise.  It made my heart jump when I first read about it on this thread.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 A questions for those of you that have this amp.  How does it fair with the Audeze LCD-2 and LCD-3? 
  
 Thanks in advance,
 Jeff


----------



## Shaffer

jerick70 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I'm seriously contemplating purchasing the Elise.  It made my heart jump when I first read about it on this thread.  :atsmile:
> 
> ...




Hi Jeff. Welcome. I see you're a man of taste and refinement. You're asking the question we all want to know the answer to. Perhaps I missed something along the line, which is entirely possible, AFAIK we don't have any Audeze owners among us. FWIW, I ran relatively low-z, low-sensitivity cans as a norm and there's more than enough juice. I fully realize that your situation is very different, regardless, and hope that you take the chance. Who knows, it might sell a few more LCDs to Elise owners. Good luck.


----------



## UntilThen

Hi Jeff,
  
 Don't think anyone have use Elise with those LCDs but there were some discussions on page 95. Elise was however designed to work with both low and high impedance headphones.
 When I get my Elise in 3 weeks time I'll be putting the HiFiman HE560 through the pace.
  
 If you do go ahead you'll be the first to tell us how it sounds through those Audezes. Oh wait Aqsw has just ordered and he has a LCD2.2.
  
 Cheers.


----------



## jerick70

@UntilThen and @Shaffer Thank you for the info.  Why thank you Shaffer, I take pride in my choice of audiophile equipment. 
  
 I think I'm going to take the leap.  I talked with Lukasz through email and he said they should be a "great match" with the LCD-2.  With your second opinions, I'm going to go for it! 
  
 Now I just need to sell a few pieces of my current gear.  My wife has put the kibosh on new audiophile purchases.  If they only understood.....


----------



## aqsw

I ordered the amp thinking it will be able to drive my 2.2s as they are 50 ohms. If not, Im sure it will drive my Ethers when I get them. They are 18 ohms, I believe.


----------



## SearchOfSub

Anyone compare this to Woo Audio WA7?


----------



## UntilThen

Welcome to the club Jeff. I see you have already a nice collections of tube amps including the LD MK6. You can do some reviews / comparison then.
  
@SearchOfSub - no comparison with WA7 as far as I know.


----------



## jerick70

untilthen said:


> Welcome to the club Jeff. I see you have already a nice collections of tube amps including the LD MK6. You can do some reviews / comparison then.
> 
> @SearchOfSub - no comparison with WA7 as far as I know.


 

 Thanks.  Yes I will do a comparative.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> I ordered the amp thinking it will be able to drive my 2.2s as they are 50 ohms. If not, Im sure it will drive my Ethers when I get them. They are 18 ohms, I believe.


 

 Very interesting Aqsw. Keen to hear your review of MrSpeakers' planar headphones.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Anyone else feeding their Elise an analog signal (from a non digital source) ?



.


----------



## UntilThen

Must you tempt me so early? Now I have to get one. I got rid of my Linn Sondek years ago....I mean Mitsubishi, yes they do make turntables besides cars.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Must you tempt me so early? Now I have to get one. I got rid of my Linn Sondek years ago....I mean Mitsubishi, yes they do make turntables besides cars.




Mitsubishi made a nice vertical table as I recall. 
Vinyl is not as convenient as digital, but it can sound very smooth and pleasant. 
Just right for a nice tube amp 

.


----------



## SearchOfSub

How do will this amp do with 8ohm impedence - 106 efficient headphones?


----------



## UntilThen

On the Feliks Audio website it says supported headphone impedance 32 - 600 ohms. Feel free to email them to confirm.
  
 email is on their website http://www.feliksaudio.pl/en


----------



## hypnos1

suuup said:


> Initial impression:
> 
> When I received it, my first thought was "Wow, this is heavy!". When I got home and got a closer look at it, I noticed how sturdy it seems. It seems I could drop it from a 10 story building, and the only thing breaking would be the pavement. I have not noticed anything wrong with me Elise. It appears to have arrived unscathed.
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi again Suuup - and WOW!...what an initial impression. You'll be having me believe my own praising next, lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And once again(!), I wonder what words you will find when she REALLY gets going...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...CHEERS!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Edit...ps. Don't the T1s just LOVE the Elise, and vice-versa!
  


untilthen said:


> Didn't do the Fitz mod. The C3gs and the adapters are very nice looking. Indeed the adapters are heavy. I believe there's silver and gold in there. Again my thanks to you and H1.


 
  
 Glad you like the look of those C3gs, UT....I'm sure you'll love the sound they deliver as well!! (Would love to say there are x grams of silver inside, but I must admit most of that weight is just epoxy resin I'm afraid, lol!).
  


jerick70 said:


> @UntilThen and @Shaffer Thank you for the info.  Why thank you Shaffer, I take pride in my choice of audiophile equipment.
> 
> I think I'm going to take the leap.  I talked with Lukasz through email and he said they should be a "great match" with the LCD-2.  With your second opinions, I'm going to go for it!
> 
> Now I just need to sell a few pieces of my current gear.  My wife has put the kibosh on new audiophile purchases.  If they only understood.....


 
  
 Glad you are (hopefully!) going to join us, j70...other half permitting!! (they very seldom do seem to understand, alas...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...we must be brave...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).
  
 And I really look forward to your impressions with the LCD-2s.
  


aqsw said:


> I ordered the amp thinking it will be able to drive my 2.2s as they are 50 ohms. If not, Im sure it will drive my Ethers when I get them. They are 18 ohms, I believe.


 
  
 I too am looking forward to how your Ethers sound in the Elise - should be VERY interesting...as with UT's HE's...
  
 I do hope you don't have _too _long a wait for your own 'bringer of joy' (as opposed to JV's 'joybringer' tubes(!) - which perhaps you might just be adding to the list at some time in the future, lol?!).
  
 (Lots more good things are gonna be happening in the weeks/months to come, that's for sure...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




).


----------



## Shaffer

To comment on an earlier post, Mitsubishi indeed made a vertical 'table - LT-5V. I owned one in undergrad. Saved for a semester working concerts to buy it.

I use a turntable with my Elise about 30% of the time.Can't that say my analog setup sounds overly smooth and pleasant. It's actually most everything, but that. There isn't much of a tonal difference between it and my Oppo105. The difference lies in the ebb and flow of the music, the lack of artificial presentation, a complete absence of grain, and a sound that feels alive.


----------



## Shaffer

searchofsub said:


> Anyone compare this to Woo Audio WA7?




I tried comparing the Elise to a WA6. There are impressions posted a few pages back.


----------



## hypnos1

A message for UntilThen, JazzVinyl and anyone else who is - or will be - in ECC31/6N7G land.
  
 Serendipity has paid another visit, courtesy of one of my FDD20s that was working perfectly at testing stage, but then decides NOT to when I finish off with epoxy resin to seal permanently, and final solder of the new base's pins...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Anyway, to drown my sorrows I go back to partnering the one successfully finished FDD20 with an ECC31...and WOW! all over again.
 Now that the FDD is further burned-in than before, the pairing is taking me to even better territory once more - the slightly deeper (yes!) sub-bass of the ECC31 now joins with the C3g-like extra sparkle, crispness and delicious treble tone and decay (no 'metallica'!!) of the FDD20 to give the best of all worlds...what more can one ask? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 And so the upshot of this is, of course...give it a go with your own version of 6N7G + ECC31(if and when you have both!), and see what happens!! - JV, at present you could try this with the two different signatures you have from your 6N7Gs perhaps?...nothing to lose...
  
 My sorrow/frustration/anger at FDD20 #2's tantrum is now subsided...except I've still got to do another one, of course!!


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> A message for UntilThen, JazzVinyl and anyone else who is - or will be - in ECC31/6N7G land.
> 
> Serendipity has paid another visit, courtesy of one of my FDD20s that was working perfectly at testing stage, but then decides NOT to when I finish off with epoxy resin to seal permanently, and final solder of the new base's pins...
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hello H1....
  
 Sorry to hear of the FDD20 calamity! Agree, have to buy another.
  
 Your description of the FDD20's sound exactly matches the original "Joybringers"...all around great, with a beautifully handled treble that is truly a joy..
  
 The GM re-brands dig deeper, and are also very clear and distinct,  but handle the treble with less delicacy than the Joybringers. Mixing the two...good idea, will do that tonight.
  
 Since I have (1) FDD20 inbound, I will get 'er going in the Elise and compare to 6N7G (in ST Envelope).
  
 Anyone measured the 6SN7 heater socket connections in the Elise, to see if it delivers 6.3 in AC or DC? 
 I predict DC,  but have not stopped listening long enough to meter it, yet 
  
 Cheers to all 'ST envelope driver' peeps. here 
  
 .


----------



## Shaffer

In case anyone is interested: 2 Matched NOS NIB 1959 RCA JAN CRC 1635 / 6N7 Tubes Gray Round Plates


----------



## UntilThen

Sorry for your lost of the FDD20 H1. It's interesting mix and match produce good results. I'll be sure to try when I get Elise and all the tubes coming my way. The new DAC is coming on the 12th Oct. I'm hoping to get a good feel of that first before Elise arrival.
  
 One of my ECC31 from the picture doesn't seem to test so well. I don't know. I'm not exactly sure how to read those figures. I may have to get another. G or anyone else any comments?
  

  
 Do I need to inject some serum with Mordy's tip?


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Do I need to inject some serum with Mordy's tip?


 
  
 There is a "Tube Guy" at work, who does not do audio, he does HAM radio.  I mentioned the Mordy serum idea, and he said "it probably is designed to burn off some resides that have collected over the years" and that was exactly what the papers we found on the subject, said.
  
 I suspect it could help bring some tubes to some usable life....but I don't have the gear (or time) required to try it 
  
 Cheers!
  
 .


----------



## aqsw

shaffer said:


> In case anyone is interested: 2 Matched NOS NIB 1959 RCA JAN CRC 1635 / 6N7 Tubes Gray Round Plates


 
 I bought two pair. Charged me for shipping once. This hobby is getting expensive, and I don't get my amp till November.


----------



## UntilThen

You're brave Aqsw. You're going for 1635.


----------



## UntilThen

Should I sell all my tubes and buy this instead?


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> Sorry for your lost of the FDD20 H1. It's interesting mix and match produce good results. I'll be sure to try when I get Elise and all the tubes coming my way. The new DAC is coming on the 12th Oct. I'm hoping to get a good feel of that first before Elise arrival.
> 
> One of my ECC31 from the picture doesn't seem to test so well. I don't know. I'm not exactly sure how to read those figures. I may have to get another. G or anyone else any comments?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks UT.
  
 Mix and match _can_ sometimes work...especially if they are of exactly the same family. Different manufacturer versions of the same tube can sometimes be too dissimilar to work well, however. And of course no two tubes are ever going to be 100% the same anyway - even off the same production line. But usually such tubes' slight differences are unnoticeable to most of us - thank goodness!
  
 In the case of my pairing of FDD20 version of a 6N7G and the ECC31 iteration, luckily their differences are not proving to be so great as to cause an obvious clash (as yet!)...the exact opposite in fact. But in the end, I really believe it's down to luck of the draw...probably the biggest problem could be achieving a good balance. And this is another bonus, IMHO, of the Elise's use of two drivers - in combination with the power tubes, we have four different permutations to try and get that balance just right - especially as each of those four is going to have a different set of measurements, lol!!...and the beauty is there's nothing to lose! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Re your ECC31s...I didn't want to rain on your parade, but that seller was just a little sneaky, methinks!
 Firstly he described them as "Old Stock"...not NEW Old Stock...a bit of a play on words, I thought.
 Secondly those plate mA readings on the tube to the right were not too good...viz the 4.3/2.8mA - especially that 2.8!
 Which I think is why he didn't actually list these readings in his text - you had to look carefully at the photo.
 I may just be being my usual cynical self, but I was very wary...and which would explain why he had no takers for quite a long while!!
  
 But perhaps they will perform better in practice, lol...I certainly hope so...


----------



## mordy

No


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Re your ECC31s...I didn't want to rain on your parade, but that seller was just a little sneaky, methinks!
> Firstly he described them as "Old Stock"...not NEW Old Stock...a bit of a play on words, I thought.
> Secondly those plate mA readings on the tube to the right were not too good...viz the 4.3/2.8mA - especially that 2.8!
> Which I think is why he didn't actually list these readings in his text - you had to look carefully at the photo.
> ...


 
 No you're right H1. I too think the right tube doesn't look too healthy. No wonder they are a bargain $130 per pair. Oh well I'll get another single if it doesn't work out well.
  
 Mordy that is a pretty short answer.


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> You're brave Aqsw. You're going for 1635.


 
 Current is .6. I should be fine. I think. Please tell me something that I don't know?


----------



## MIKELAP

untilthen said:


> Sorry for your lost of the FDD20 H1. It's interesting mix and match produce good results. I'll be sure to try when I get Elise and all the tubes coming my way. The new DAC is coming on the 12th Oct. I'm hoping to get a good feel of that first before Elise arrival.
> 
> One of my ECC31 from the picture doesn't seem to test so well. I don't know. I'm not exactly sure how to read those figures. I may have to get another. G or anyone else any comments?
> 
> ...


 

 Saw these also and wasnt shure either what those readings ment but i saw the readings from the  right tube were not similar to the left so i past as  per gibosi advice


----------



## UntilThen

Yes the left one looks healthy so I was willing to chance it when my offer was accepted. Worst case scenario I'd have paid for one tube instead of a pair. Now to wait for it all to come before I do anything.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Current is .6. I should be fine. I think. Please tell me something that I don't know?


 
 Page 202 is G's response. I don't think anyone has tried it. I'm sending a pair to JV to be the guinea


----------



## mordy

Hi Folks,
  
 Little bit off topic, but now u can bring rolling fun to your smartphone, laptop charger or your PC. Found this little gadget:
  




  
 This is a USB meter that shows voltage and amps simultaneously. U plug it in into a USB port on your PC, laptop or charger, and then you plug in a USB wire into the USB detector with the other end into your smartphone, external battery or whatever.
  
 So what is it good for? Firstly, it will tell u if u have a bad USB port I have one on my laptop, and by jiggling the wire I can make it work - the thing lights up. Secondly, it will tell you which USB port puts out higher voltage, both at idle and under load; the same goes for the amperage.
  
 The most important functions are that it will tell which charger works best - charger rolling. And the biggest surprise (which should not be a surprise at all, thinking about it) - USB wire rolling: Different cables produce stronger or weaker voltage/amps, so u can ferret out which charger and which wire works the best.
  
 My gizmo came with exactly zero instructions, but the detector has two USB outputs with different algorithms. By switching from one port to the other, u can choose which port on the USB detector charges stronger. This depends on the device u are charging.
  
 So where does it lead us? I could see a socket saver hooked up to this device that measures voltage and amp draw at the tube pins. That would be neat, eh?
  
 These gadgets are available on Amazon with prices all over the map. I paid $6.99 for mine, but today I saw them for $4.39-$25. Look under USB meter or USB detector if u r interested.


----------



## gibosi

aqsw said:


> Current is .6. I should be fine. I think. Please tell me something that I don't know?


 
  
 They work fine in my Glenn and in 6SN7-based Woo amps. And they will undoubtedly work fine in the Elise. However, Lukasz would likely take a dim view of these.
  
 http://www.head-fi.org/t/732875/feliks-audio-elise-previously-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype/3120#post_11939042
  
 You have to remember that the Elise was never designed to be a tube-rolling amp, and therefore. the company line is only the 6SN7 and some very close relatives, such as the 7N7 and the 6F8G, should be used. But again, the fact that others use the 6SL7 and similar tubes (like the 1635) in Glenn and Woo amps suggests that there is absolutely nothing to worry about. But of course, there is also absolutely no guarantee that these odder tubes will sound good. However, the FDD20 is about as odd as it gets, and H1 seems to think they sound pretty good in the Elise.


----------



## aqsw

I'm glad i won't be the first guinea pig. Should know by the time i get my amp I'm more concerned about my planars with this amp.Although I still have two other great amps to pair them with.


----------



## Shaffer

Hopefully I'll have my adapters in a couple of weeks and will be able to report on the 1635s.


----------



## Suuup

Last night, before I went to bed, I heard one last song. It was Telegraph Road by Dire Straits. It's my absolute favorite song of all time. For me it's an adventure. I lean back my chair, get a blanket and a pillow and just enjoy this one song for 15 minutes. Well, last night wasn't so joyous. I did not like it. Somehow, the mids and treble sounded VERY recessed / muted and muddy. I have no idea what happened. I scuffed it off as me just not being in the mood. 
  
 Today I woke up, eager to listen to her again, even after last nights unhappy ending. I've been listening to her all day. So far, it's only this one song where I've been disappointed. Every other song sounds wonderful. Well, after 9 hours now, I had to turn her off. She's been running for 9 straight hours. The reason for the shutdown, was a slight hum on the right channel. I didn't hear any hum yesterday, so I'm not sure what's happening now. Is it because she's been running for so long? Are there any general rules I should know about tube amps? I know she needs to heat up before the music is all the way up to snuff, but I haven't heard about sustained use being an issue (although I also haven't been looking).


----------



## UntilThen

Do you have any other tubes to try?
  
 A while ago I bought a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome top in nearly new condition. When I first tried it, it was perfect no hum. 2nd day I went back to it and the hum started. Now over the course of several weeks I persisted with using it and the hum disappeared.
  
 This particular song Telegraph Road, is it on the same CD or you have it as a FLAC file? Have you ever heard this song where it sounded good before?
  
 It's a good idea to have a break after 9 hours.


----------



## Suuup

untilthen said:


> Do you have any other tubes to try?
> 
> A while ago I bought a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GTB Chrome top in nearly new condition. When I first tried it, it was perfect no hum. 2nd day I went back to it and the hum started. Now over the course of several weeks I persisted with using it and the hum disappeared.
> 
> This particular song Telegraph Road, is it on the same CD or you have it as a FLAC file? Have you ever heard this song where it sounded good before?


 
 I played it off of Spotify premium. Should be 320 kbps mp3. I've listened to it hundreds of times, from Spotify even, and it never sounded like this. 
  
 I have no other tubes, unfortunately. One weird thing was, it didn't matter how much I turned up the Elise, the hum stayed the same.


----------



## UntilThen

Yes hum loudness stays the same regardless of volume. Try powering up without the headphone jack on and let the tubes warm up for 5 mins at least then connect the jack. I think you need to burn in those tubes.
  
 One can never know with Spotify or even Tidal. I've used both, currently on Tidal because it's CD quality at 16/44.1
 Somedays I cannot access some songs ...something to the effect it's not available at the moment. Maybe maintenance maybe they're reloading the songs. Music streamers are very convenient though. I use it frequently to explore songs.
  
 As my true source, I've all my CDs ripped into iTunes in Apple Lossless Audio Codec format. Including all of Dire Straits and Chesky Records, Reference tuning CDs. I am also using Audirvana Plus on top of iTunes. There's always the Onkyo CD player for backup. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 Shoot Lukasz an email about the hum and see what he says.


----------



## Suuup

untilthen said:


> Yes hum loudness stays the same regardless of volume. Try powering up without the headphone jack on and let the tubes warm up for 5 mins at least then connect the jack. I think you need to burn in those tubes.
> 
> One can never know with Spotify or even Tidal. I've used both, currently on Tidal because it's CD quality at 16/44.1
> Somedays I cannot access some songs ...something to the effect it's not available at the moment. Maybe maintenance maybe they're reloading the songs. Music streamers are very convenient though. I use it frequently to explore songs.
> ...


 
 I just powered the Elise on again 20 minutes ago. There is no hum at all now. Dire Straits is actually one of the few I have laying around in flac, although I did use Spotify last night. Will try the flac version tomorrow.


----------



## Shaffer

suuup said:


> I played it off of Spotify premium. Should be 320 kbps mp3. I've listened to it hundreds of times, from Spotify even, and it never sounded like this.




You likely never experienced this level of resolution before. Now you can easily hear how bad MP3s sound. I have a couple of LPs of the album, as well as two different CD mastering. The audio quality is close to reference-grade. FWIW, we used the album to demo multi-tens-of-thousands dollar systems.


----------



## UntilThen

Hahaha Elise and Beyer T1 will be ruthlessly revealing of your source quality now. Welcome to upgrade fever.
  
 On the subject of no hum, what a relief that my NOS 7N7 Raytheon has settled down and doesn't hum anymore. These are sweet sounding tubes. Highly recommended.


----------



## Suuup

Well, the hum is now slowly returning 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I'll send Lukasz a mail. 
  
  


shaffer said:


> You likely never experienced this level of resolution before. Now you can easily hear how bad MP3s sound. I have a couple of LPs of the album, as well as two different CD mastering. The audio quality is close to reference-grade. FWIW, we used the album to demo multi-tens-of-thousands dollar systems.


 
 Yes, the albums are VERY well made. 
  
 Edit: Hm, I just turned her off for 10 seconds, and turned her on again. The hum was gone. Also, when I reached to turn her off, my hand hit the power cable on the back, and the hum worsened a LOT.


----------



## Shaffer

suuup said:


> Well, the hum is now slowly returning   I'll send Lukasz a mail.
> 
> 
> Yes, the albums are VERY well made.
> ...




Obvious question, do you have other power cables and interconnects?


----------



## Suuup

shaffer said:


> Obvious question, do you have other power cables and interconnects?


 
 I think I have another power cable at least. I will look for one and try it out.


----------



## mordy

Hi UT,
  
 To use 7N7 tubes, do you need a loctal to octal adapter? Is the pinout the same as 6SN7?


----------



## UntilThen

Yes you need this adapter.
  

  
 You got me curious so I look up loctal and octal. Both 8 pins but slight variations 
 Yes 7N7 tubes needs a loctal to octal adapter as shown above.


----------



## UntilThen

One other tube that I tried and love on the Darkvoice is 6CG7 as well as 6GU7. Shaffer knows about this. Pretty good substitute for 6SN7 and much cheaper. Needs a 6CG7/6GU7 to 6SN7 adapter.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Yes you need this adapter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You haven't lived until you've used a loctal rectifier. I have one on the way. lol

Speaking of rectifiers, received a very nice package from 004 today, which included a GZ34 rectifier. Looks like I'm actually going to have to write a real comparative review of the WA6/Elise. The tube _transformed _the Woo. I would not have believed the scope of the difference, had I not heard it for myself. There are a few more tubes to audition, and that's when I guess I can really begin to listen.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> One other tube that I tried and love on the Darkvoice is 6CG7 as well as 6GU7. Shaffer knows about this. Pretty good substitute for 6SN7 and much cheaper. Needs a 6CG7/6GU7 to 6SN7 adapter.




I'm days away from auditioning 6GU7s in the Elise. Working with another small signal tube now.


----------



## UntilThen

Good on you Shaffer. Things are getting more exciting. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Unfortunately I'll never get to try a rectifier unless I get another amp lol.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Good on you Shaffer. Things are getting more exciting. :bigsmile_face:




Once I'm finished, there will be 5-6 different tubes to discuss. Haven't decided where to stop yet.



> Unfortunately I'll never get to try a rectifier unless I get another amp lol. :veryevil:




If you get one, spend the money, buy a good rectifier to begin with, and cry once. A lesson I had to learn for myself.


----------



## 3083joe

Shaffer
Evening. I will check it out.


----------



## 3083joe

shaffer said:


> Once I'm finished, there will be 5-6 different tubes to discuss. Haven't decided where to stop yet.
> If you get one, spend the money, buy a good rectifier to begin with, and cry once. A lesson I had to learn for myself.



Truth!
Western electric after so much money on all the others.


----------



## UntilThen

Greetings Joe. Are we talking about Western Electric 421A? or some other Western Electric rectifiers.


----------



## JazzVinyl

My 5694 to 6SN7 adapters arrived today. But alas, no 5694's to be had. Two sites showed them as in stock, but upon ordering them, a refund came saying they didn't have any, after all.

If anyone sees or hears of a pair being avail, please inform.

Or if you have a pair but need adapters, will send these to you, you can return them at later date.

Turntable spinning...Steely Dan Goucho...playing the LP I bought when it was current, November 1980. It's a perfection of studio musicianship, recording and mixing skills. It has ever sounded better. Cavernous bass, delicate voices, rich harmony, wood winds peeking in, every now and then, muted trumpet, sweet reverb added to backing vocals, and big fat sounding keyboards. Incredible details being extracted by a Denon DL-160 MC cart.

Juicy, luscious perfection - thank you, Elise.

.


----------



## 3083joe

untilthen said:


> Greetings Joe. Are we talking about Western Electric 421A? or some other Western Electric rectifiers. :bigsmile_face:



422a


----------



## Shaffer

3083joe said:


> 422a




I'd love to hear one. Right now I'm blown away by a GZ34. I understand one can do better.


----------



## 3083joe

shaffer said:


> I'd love to hear one. Right now I'm blown away by a GZ34. I understand one can do better.



Haven't heard metal gz34 but the 422a and the cossor fat bottle gz37 are both amazing. 
Ordered a we274a will see how it compares.


----------



## Shaffer

3083joe said:


> Haven't heard metal gz34 but the 422a and the cossor fat bottle gz37 are both amazing.
> Ordered a we274a will see how it compares.




You're the second person to mention the Cossor Fat Bottle GZ34. I may have to start saving my shekels. Seriously.


----------



## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 Tried a bunch of 6CG7 and 6FQ7 as power tubes in the Little Dot MKIII, but they did not work well at all in this amp. Curious to know how they fare in the Elise.


----------



## UntilThen

Suuup I got my 2nd 7N7 tube de-hum. Left music spinning for 5 hours and now it's dead silent. I suggest you do that to your tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Hi Shaffer,
> 
> Tried a bunch of 6CG7 and 6FQ7 as power tubes in the Little Dot MKIII, but they did not work well at all in this amp. Curious to know how they fare in the Elise.




I am, too. 

There are still three different (tube) pairs to audition. So far, as expected, some are working out better than others, often performing a bit differently than in the DV.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> There are still three different (tube) pairs to audition. So far, as expected, some are working out better than others, often performing a bit differently than in the DV.


 
  
 Used as drivers, I found the Sylvania and Tung-Sol 6CG7 to be quite good in my LD. Haven't gotten around to trying them in the Glenn...


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> Used as drivers, I found the Sylvania and Tung-Sol 6CG7 to be quite good in my LD. Haven't gotten around to trying them in the Glenn...




There's one tube in particular, aside from the '57 mystery bottle, that really juices my lizard. Should have a second by the middle of next week. We'll see how it fares in the Elise.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> Suuup I got my 2nd 7N7 tube de-hum. Left music spinning for 5 hours and now it's dead silent. I suggest you do that to your tubes.




The Elise isn't as susceptible to hum as the DV. The only tubes that didn't work in mine - hum, buzz, or audible distortion - were the 6922 and the 3Cg. Everything else is silent. Wish I could say the same for the Woo. The thing buzzes relentlessly, albeit, at a relatively low level. Seems to be partially tube-driven.

Edit: A milestone - broke my first tube yesterday. The devil ears rectifier that came with my WA6. Not that upset about it; two BNIB identical tubes are arriving today.


----------



## JazzVinyl

Help me dig out some details, please.

Listened to George Harrison's song "The Ballad Of Frankie Crisp (Let It Roll) last night. Vinyl->Preamp->Elise->DT990. 
Using the rebranded Sylvania 6SN7 (WG & Co) from late 50's or early 60's I noted a very deep male voice, way back in the mix that is singing something...can't quite clearly make out what he is saying..

Changed to C3g and tried again, and it's much less distinct in these Tubes, almost alarming at the difference between the two at this frequency. 

Neither the rebranded 6N7G (ST envelope) nor original Joybringers' revealed the lyric from this deep voice.

Tried my other Sylvania 6SN7's (60's?) too, you almost can't hear this at all in these, except at the fade out. 

Nothing earth shattering, but thought it might be fun, if you have this song and want to see if we can dig it out. 

I don't have any remasters' just the original LP from 1970 that was intentionally mixed a "bit murky". 

This happens during the acoustic guitar bridges, most pronounced during the fade out.

Might be saying: "So Fine....Frankie Crisp" Or "So Fine....So Crisp" ?

BTW, the song is about Harrison's estate in England, the owner before him was Sir Frankie Crisp, interesting reads are avail about the estate, and its many "spiritual exploration" enabling attributes. 

.

.


----------



## hypnos1

suuup said:


> Well, the hum is now slowly returning
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Suuup...sorry to hear you are encountering the bane of tube amp land - hum can, unfortunately, hit from many different directions and sometimes be the devil incarnate to track down. But from what you say, the finger certainly does point to that power cable...whatever, I would strongly suggest investing in a very good quality, well-shielded one. The first thing I do with any half-decent piece of kit is ditch the supplied cable, lol!!
 It might be worth checking the plug's connection in the amp...I found once I hadn't pushed it in fully, and...hum! 'Waggling' the plug would also show if there is a problem in that particular area - either externally or internally...
  
 If this isn't in fact the culprit, the next thing to look at are the tubes...are they seated properly in the sockets? What do the pins look like?...if any sign at all of coating on the metal, either scrape clean with the back of a knife; use fine emery paper, or - as some do - clean with Caig "Deoxit".
  
 As others have mentioned, tube hum can come and go for QUITE A LONG WHILE before settling down - some tubes are worse than others for this annoying trait!
  
 Hopefully by now it is either gone or on its way out...fingers crossed!
 Other possible sources of hum are strong electrical interference - EMI/RFI - from 'fridges to mobile phones...and even the quality of the initial mains supply before a whole host of other things start to introduce gremlins. This is when the search becomes REALLY mind-bending, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 I do also hope you find a good source for Dire Straits - 'Love Over Gold' is one of my most favourite CDs EVER!...and yes, as already mentioned, Elise plus such as the T1s will surely bring you into "The Good, The Bad, The Ugly" territory!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 And so my best wishes go to you in resolving both these issues...it can indeed be a 'twisty, turny' road to full bliss in this hobby of ours...but the journey is well worth it in the end.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> ......FWIW, I made a living working with quality turntables.


 
  
 If I might take advantage of your expertise, I have a Thorens TD 160, which I purchased new in the mid-1970's, I believe, with a Shure V15 Type III cartridge. However, I haven't used it in over 20 years.... In fact, I no longer own a single vinyl record! lol.
  
 How does this compare to current production?


----------



## JazzVinyl

The table picture was intentionally made to look retro, or "old".
  
 The table is a Harman Kardon T-25 and has had all of the Van-Alstine specified mods done, including externalization of the power supply.
  
 While it might not not "look like it resolves very well" it in fact, very much does.
  
 I also own a Well Tempered Classic, turntable.
  
 Have several Denon DL-110 carts. Like them very much, but I also like the DL-160 which is more neutral, overall and not to blame for the 'mirky mix' of the 1970 song mentioned.
  
 Not trying to be rude either, but I know a little something about Turntables. 
  
 .


----------



## mordy

Hi JV,
  
 Which power tubes r u using? I find that the power tubes can add to the resolution as well.


----------



## JazzVinyl

jazzvinyl said:


> Listened to George Harrison's song "The Ballad Of Frankie Crisp (Let It Roll) last night. Vinyl->Preamp->Elise->DT990.
> Using the rebranded Sylvania 6SN7 (WG & Co) from late 50's or early 60's I noted a very deep male voice, way back in the mix that is singing something...can't quite clearly make out what he is saying..


 

 "It's The Ballad of Frankie Crisp"
  
 Is easily heard in the fadeout, of the remaster,
  
 Hope everyone has a fun weekend!
  
 Cheers!!


----------



## Shaffer

On the tube side of life, the pair of brand new JAN CDR 1641 rectifiers have arrived for the WA6. There's something really special about firing something up that's sat its box since 1957. I usually don't listen to brand new tubes right away, but this time decided to. Keeping in mind it has no burnin at all, it's noticeably less weighty, detailed, and open sounding than the GZ34. Not bad, though. Looking forward to further improvements ahead. The amp seems to buzz less, but that could also be due to the time of day, the direction of the wind, or hopefully the most shielded cable I have that was installed late last night.... I live in RFI hell.

Edit: Now that I look at the box again, the tube was packaged in 1957, not '59 as originally wrote.


----------



## gibosi

These appear to be the WWII gray-glass National Union 6SN7. To my ears these are much better than the later, and more common, black-glass tube NU 6SN7. And the price is as cheap as I seen.
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NATIONAL-UNION-CNU-6SN7GT-TUBES-A5-/271997210451


----------



## Shaffer

As a couple of folks are having issues with hum/buzz, I, too, have been dealing with a similar issue with my WA6. Finally got sick of it and got rid of 98% of the noise:

1) Thoroughly cleaned all pins.
2) After some trial and error, settled on a heavily shielded Mogami pro interconnect. The wire has long leads, which were twisted as to minimize inductance.
3) Built and installed a very high capacitance power cord.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> As a couple of folks are having issues with hum/buzz, I, too, have been dealing with a similar issue with my WA6. Finally got sick of it and got rid of 98% of the noise:
> 
> 1) Thoroughly cleaned all pins.
> 2) After some trial and error, settled on a heavily shielded Mogami pro interconnect. The wire has long leads, which were twisted as to minimize inductance.
> 3) Built and installed a very high capacitance power cord.


 
 Great tips there Shaffer! Re-seatng the tubes also helped a couple of times in my case. Really curious what type of power cord you used, was it coaxial?


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Great tips there Shaffer! Re-seatng the tubes also helped a couple of times in my case. Really curious what type of power cord you used, was it coaxial?




I used fairly nondescript industrial cable and audiophile-type connectors: 4x10awg, twisted braid intertwined with _paper _spaces geometry. I built two cords. One with additional capacitance on the ground (ie. 2 strands of the cable out of the 4) and another similarly configured cord with doubled strands on the return leg. The latter was the one that worked best.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> I used fairly nondescript industrial cable and audiophile-type connectors: 4x10awg, twisted braid intertwined with _paper _spaces geometry. I built two cords. One with additional capacitance on the ground (ie. 2 strands of the cable out of the 4) and another similarly configured cord with doubled strands on the return leg. The latter was the one that worked best.


 
 Thanks for the info Shaffer, I wonder where I could get such cable. I do have some heavy duty coaxial cable that I'd like to try as power cable., do you have any experience with those?


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Thanks for the info Shaffer, I wonder where I could get such cable. I do have some heavy duty coaxial cable that I'd like to try as power cable., do you have any experience with those?




Do you have DIY stores in Holland like our Home Depot? That's where I buy the industrial wire. If not, an electric distributor would have some.

Yes, I have experience building cords with coax. In fact, one of my favorite cords is made from a coax cable that I bought from the San Alamos National Laboratory. The man who wrote its review called it the Area 51 cord. That was more than 10 years ago, few folks were playing with power, and I still use the Area 51 cord as do the guys who bought it. At least I hope so. Interestingly, I purchased several different power wires from the Laboratory - all 14awg. They were all terminated differently when I received them, implying use in alternate applications. Funny, the docs at the lab don't seem to think all power wire of the same gauge is the same, but what can a bunch of scientists with doctoral work in quantum mechanics/physics possibly understand about this. lol


----------



## nephilim

I also upgraded my power cord in order to fight hum but saw no effect. The question I was asking myself: I might improve the last visible 1m between socket and amp but what about the invisible 90% of the wire inside of the wall? There - I would assume - we will find the cheapest wires the electrician could find at that point in time - probably thinner than the 10awg which is mentioned here.


----------



## Shaffer

[quote name="nephilim" url="/t/732875/feliks-audio-elise-previously-6sn7-6as7g-6080-prototype/3225#post_11945503"*]I also upgraded my power cord in order to fight hum but saw no effect. The question I was asking myself: I might improve the last visible 1m between socket and amp but what about the invisible 90% of the wire inside of the wall?*[/quote]

^^^ It's the most common argument against aftermarket power cords. It's like saying that H2O travels hundreds of miles underground, so what will the little water purifier on the faucet do? I think you can see where I'm going.

I've been building cords from various materials for 10+ years. Some make a slight difference, some make none, some can eliminate hum and buzz. This, depends _heavily _on the specific component used with the cord. For example, no cord made any difference on a Bryston amp I had. I even had a $2500 cord sent to me from the manufacturer for further audition, as he simply could not believe there was no difference. Still heard nothing new. The same cannot be said for the Elise.



> There - I would assume - we will find the cheapest wires the electrician could find at that point in time - probably thinner than the 10awg which is mentioned here.




That's really up to you. If you don't have a dedicated line(s), have some installed. Really. You can specify anything you wish. FWIW, my system runs off its own sub-panel with 100A service. 10AWG wire, spec outlets, blah, blah, blah. Multiple dedicated lines positioned strategically all over the room. It's quite affordable.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Do you have DIY stores in Holland like our Home Depot? That's where I buy the industrial wire. If not, an electric distributor would have some.
> 
> Yes, I have experience building cords with coax. In fact, one of my favorite cords is made from a coax cable that I bought from the San Alamos National Laboratory. The man who wrote its review called it the Area 51 cord. That was more than 10 years ago, few folks were playing with power, and I still use the Area 51 cord as do the guys who bought it. At least I hope so. Interestingly, I purchased several different power wires from the Laboratory - all 14awg. They were all terminated differently when I received them, implying use in alternate applications. Funny, the docs at the lab don't seem to think all power wire of the same gauge is the same, but what can a bunch of scientists with doctoral work in quantum mechanics/physics possibly understand about this. lol


 
 Interesting background on that 'Area 51' cable!  I have some coaxial cable (I'd have to dig it up) that's very beefy, ~15mm outside diameter. It looks a lot like the one pictured here:

  
 Is it anything similar to yours and do you think it would work well?


----------



## immtbiker

I have deleted some posts and posts that that contained references to them, which contained attacks on member's character and their opinions.
  
 Please keep this thread trending in a positive and informative direction, by staying away from any veiled or obvious personal attacks.
  
 -----------------------------------------------------------
_From Head-Fi's TOS:_
  
_**Posting Etiquette *_
   
_Be polite. We encourage debating in the forums, but avoid defamatory statements, personal attacks, racial slurs, name-calling, and cursing at others in the forums._
  


> _*          defamatory:*  see defame below._
> 
> _*          defame:*  1. disgrace; 2. to harm the reputation of by libel or slander._
> 
> ...


----------



## nephilim

shaffer said:


> ^^^ It's the most common argument against aftermarket power cords. It's like saying that H2O travels hundreds of miles underground, so what will the little water purifier on the faucet do? I think you can see where I'm going.


 
 I could follow this comparison if a better power cord would be able to remove "pollution". I was under the impression that a good cord prevents further degradation, i.e., transmits power without adding further "pollution". If the cord would act as a purifier, I would probably have to replace it once its filtering capabilty is exhausted. But that's just my opinion as an engineer, who likes to listen to hum-free music 
  
 Anyway, I understand that a dedicated line is the way to go. Unfortunately, in my (pretty old) house this would be rather difficult.


----------



## Shaffer

nephilim said:


> I could follow this comparison if a better power cord would be able to remove "pollution".




I can demonstrate that on a moment's notice. Fully audible. Mind you, with specific components in a particular environment. Just as I can easily demonstrate that power cords have no effect on the sound.



> I was under the impression that a good cord prevents further degradation, i.e., transmits power without adding further "pollution". If the cord would act as a purifier, I would probably have to replace it once its filtering capabilty is exhausted. But that's just my opinion as an engineer, who likes to listen to hum-free music




I'm sure you've seen the (mathematical) proof demonstrating that bumble bees can't fly. Yet, they do. The more you learn, the more you realize how much you don't know. In my field, no one can render a valid opinion until they hit post-doc. Engineering isn't all that different. How do I know? Every male in my family, other than myself, is an engineer with a Ph.D. The concepts taught in undergrad are, well, relatively diluted.



> Anyway, I understand that a dedicated line is the way to go. Unfortunately, in my (pretty old) house this would be rather difficult.




That's a shame. Perhaps one day an opportunity will come up.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> These appear to be the WWII gray-glass National Union 6SN7. To my ears these are much better than the later, and more common, black-glass tube NU 6SN7. And the price is as cheap as I seen.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NATIONAL-UNION-CNU-6SN7GT-TUBES-A5-/271997210451


 

 These are still there amazing 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I agree they are good value at that price.


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> These are still there amazing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Yes, I hope someone buys them very soon. Typically these will go for $75 to $100 for one tube! That is such a good price I have come very close to buying them several times. But I don't need anymore! I already have 3! (which is more than enough as my amp uses only one driver...)


----------



## UntilThen

I would have immediately had the shipping cost not been US$45 for me ...same cost as the tubes!!!  I have never paid so much for shipping in all of my tubes even the big power tubes.


----------



## gibosi

$45? Wow! Within the US shipping is only $7.04. Very reasonable....


----------



## SonicTrance

$42,75 to Sweden. Usually when I buy from the US shipping is about $16-20. Strange


----------



## UntilThen

Yes that is what's showing up in that site as shipping cost for me. Usually I pay $20 at most for shipping. Then again a total of $90 for the pair is still value. If it's still there and I get my 5998 refund tomorrow I'll get it  I want to know how it compares to the RCA smoke glass. Feel free to go for it guys in the meantime. I do have quite a lot of tubes waiting for Elise already.
  
 Huh it cost that much for you too Mx.


----------



## UntilThen

I bought these in the meantime. It's new shiny and red  All 5 of them. These will work with 6CG7 to 6SN7 adapters. They are 6BQ7A.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> Yes that is what's showing up in that site as shipping cost for me. Usually I pay $20 at most for shipping. Then again a total of $90 for the pair is still value. If it's still there and I get my 5998 refund tomorrow I'll get it  I want to know how it compares to the RCA smoke glass. Feel free to go for it guys in the meantime. I do have quite a lot of tubes waiting for Elise already.
> 
> Huh it cost that much for you too Mx.


 
 Alright, I had asked to seller to list a cheaper international shipping option. He added it ($17,95) and so I bought the pair. My friend has a pair of RCA smoked glass 6SN7GT's and I'll try to make a comparison when they arrive.


----------



## nephilim

Argh! I had asked the same and while I was checking out you bought it


----------



## UntilThen

Hahaha Nep ....what happens if both press the button at the same time. Guess you'll get one each. 

That's a bargain Ren. Compare it to your Ken Rad too.


----------



## UntilThen

Gentlemen and Ladies, these are on sale on the Aussie forum and no not the big speakers but HiFiman HE1000 and Woo Audio Wa5.
 Grab it while it last.


----------



## Shaffer

Fun with rectifiers. Got two today: a Sylvania 5U4, looks like 50s vintage, and a Sylvania 1275 - a relatively low-powered oddball tube. The 1275 was no match for 6FN7 big bottles that draw close to an amp a pop, but it fared much better with smaller 6DR7s. This tube is crystal clear. A bit lean on the bottom, but does provide a solid foundation when the stars align. A vivid, engaging tonal balance. Not much extension below ~50Hz.

The 5U4 sound significantly warmer, has more bass - but less articulation - and comes across as a bit veiled. It's a solid backup, nonetheless.

The GZ34 has seen no equals as of yet. Love it!


----------



## Renderman

nephilim said:


> Argh! I had asked the same and while I was checking out you bought it


 
 Ahw sorry Nephilim, didn't mean to do that. Not to worry, there is a good chance these will become available again!  I will let you know in case they are looking for a new owner.
  
  


untilthen said:


> Hahaha Nep ....what happens if both press the button at the same time. Guess you'll get one each.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks UT, at just under 60 euros I consider this a bargain too, Rob has more tubes we can use in the Elise up for sale:
 http://stores.ebay.com/robtram?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
  
 I will compare them to my National Union JAN-CNU 6SN7GT Black Glass (I think you meant those  and Philips 6SN7GT Grey Glass, whew this is going to be quite the comparison...


----------



## UntilThen

I was mistaken then. I thought you have the Ken Rad 6sn7gt smoke glass vt231 as well but for sure those that you have would be fun. Waiting. ...


----------



## UntilThen

And when Nep has finished with the NU he can send it downunder.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> And when Nep has finished with the NU he can send it downunder.


 
 Sure, we'll make it a world tour! lol. But first tell us what you think of the C3gs and Fotons! Any updates on your Elise?


----------



## UntilThen

No news is good news. 
  
 Seeing that I got hum out of the way for the 7N7 by giving it a good dose of music I might do the same for the Fotons. Let me try again.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> No news is good news.
> 
> Seeing that I got hum out of the way for the 7N7 by giving it a good dose of music I might do the same for the Fotons. Let me try again.


 
 Good Luck! The Fotons never hummed in the Elise so there is a chance they can be made hum-free in the DV too I would think.


----------



## UntilThen

Ren I give up. I throw all kinds of music at the Fotons. Dubsteps, Trance, Electronic trying to subdue it but all it did was hum in unison to those music. It's loud hum.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> Ren I give up. I throw all kinds of music at the Fotons. Dubsteps, Trance, Electronic trying to subdue it but all it did was hum in unison to those music. It's loud hum.


 
 Sorry to hear that UT, I hope they fare better in your Elise, still like to hear what you think of them


----------



## UntilThen

It's ok Ren was just toying with it. Will let you know.
Unable to resist a good value I ordered a pair of Thompson 6080WA from Parts Connexion at $9.90 each. Never seen it this cheap before.


----------



## 3083joe

untilthen said:


> Yes that is what's showing up in that site as shipping cost for me. Usually I pay $20 at most for shipping. Then again a total of $90 for the pair is still value. If it's still there and I get my 5998 refund tomorrow I'll get it  I want to know how it compares to the RCA smoke glass. Feel free to go for it guys in the meantime. I do have quite a lot of tubes waiting for Elise already.
> 
> Huh it cost that much for you too Mx.



I just sold pair. To me the are more laid back then Rcas and I liked them more


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> It's ok Ren was just toying with it. Will let you know.
> Unable to resist a good value I ordered a pair of Thompson 6080WA from Parts Connexion at $9.90 each. Never seen it this cheap before.




I bought a pair also. Shipping in Canada is inexpensive also. They have gz34 mullards for 40.00 New stock.


----------



## Renderman

aqsw said:


> I bought a pair also. Shipping in Canada is inexpensive also. They have gz34 mullards for 40.00 New stock.


 
 Hmm, Mullards from Russia?
  


> TUBE: Mullard GZ34 (5AR4) Full Wave Rectifier, 8 pin, Original Box, Russia, Singles


----------



## SonicTrance

Those Mullards are new russian production tubes, not NOS


----------



## UntilThen

Are there so many pairs of cheap NU floating around?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Oh wow so Mullard is also sold to a Russian company just as Tung Sol was?
  
 Not complaining really because I think the Tung Sol reissue and EH6SN7GTB are quite good.


----------



## aqsw

sonictrance said:


> Those Mullards are new russian production tubes, not NOS




I stated that in my post.


----------



## UntilThen

Indeed you did Aqsw. Ah I see you bought a pair of Thompson 6080WA as well. Very good. They haven't replied and invoice me I hope there's stock. Look how beautiful they are.


----------



## aqsw

untilthen said:


> Indeed you did Aqsw. Ah I see you bought a pair of Thompson 6080WA as well. Very good. They haven't replied and invoice me I hope there's stock. Look how beautiful they are.




They haven't invoiced me yet either. I presume they will tomorrow when they open for business.


----------



## Suuup

I tried swapping the side of the power tubes. It resulted in the hum going from the right side to the left. Could it be my power tube that's causing the hum?


----------



## UntilThen

It's time to invest in a pair of power tubes from eBay.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> shaffer said:
> 
> 
> > ......FWIW, I made a living working with quality turntables.
> ...


 

 Funny i also had that same TD that i bought in 1977 had a Stanton carthridge on ,gave the whole system and 600 records to my son and warned him not to get rid of anything or else lol


----------



## JazzVinyl

> I tried swapping the side of the power tubes. It resulted in the hum going from the right side to the left. Could it be my power tube that's causing the hum?


 
  
 Send me a PM with your address, Suuup and I will send you a 6080 Power Tube that I am not using.  Does not hum, here...
 Might help you to get the bottom of the problem.
  
 .


----------



## Suuup

jazzvinyl said:


> Send me a PM with your address, Suuup and I will send you a pair of Sylvania 6SN7's that I am not using.
> Might help you to get the bottom of the problem.
> 
> .


 
 Wait, I might be getting this the wrong way. My power tubes are 6H13C? It's the big ones.


----------



## JazzVinyl

suuup said:


> Wait, I might be getting this the wrong way. My power tubes are 6H13C? It's the big ones.


 
  
 Sorry, meant to say I have a 6080 power tube I don't use, that I can send you.  6080 is compatible.
  
 .


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> If I might take advantage of your expertise, I have a Thorens TD 160, which I purchased new in the mid-1970's, I believe, with a Shure V15 Type III cartridge. However, I haven't used it in over 20 years.... In fact, I no longer own a single vinyl record! lol.
> 
> How does this compare to current production?




Didn't see the post 'till now.

Though we've discussed this in PM, for the benefit of the group, don't discount an older Thorens. The bearings are very good and have to be re-lubed, and it likely needs to have the foam in the springs replaced. Then, its bounce has to be tuned, a new belt installed and that's pretty much it. To take it to the next level involves a new armboard with a Rega arm.


----------



## UntilThen

Yes 6H13C are your power tubes. The big ones and they go in the back. Buy those french Thomson 6080WA that I link above. They are cheap and worth a try. Or you can buy GE 6AS7GA from Parts Express for $10 or $11 each.
  
 Scrub that...JV has the power tubes for you.
  
 Swap the power tubes again and see if the hum reverse sides now.


----------



## Shaffer

suuup said:


> I tried swapping the side of the power tubes. It resulted in the hum going from the right side to the left. *Could it be my power tube that's causing the hum*?




Sounds like it. As was suggested, pickup another set of tubes. If the factory tubes are causing the problem, they're under warranty. Good luck.


----------



## JazzVinyl

I had two new GE JAN 6080 WC's...dropped one during a a tube roll. Now I have one new JAN 6080 WC,

Glad to send it to Suuup, If he finds that was the problem, I am sure Lukasz will be happy to send him a replacement power tube. 

He can then keep the 6080 as a spare...or make a Christmas ornament out of it, or something 

.


----------



## JazzVinyl

I love it when a popular band like Dire Straits, includes instruments that are unusual for the Genre...

Like the Vibraphone and Marimba in "Private Investigations" on the Love Over Gold album.

My Elise enjoyed it, very much, too 

These two instruments, incredibly understated, delicate and wonderful. 

Anyone see this done live? Did they have the vibes and marimba, in the live show?

.


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> Are there so many pairs of cheap NU floating around?


 
  
 The black-glass NU 6SN7 are very common. The older gray-glass 6SN7, which sounds quite different, are much more rare.


----------



## UntilThen

G you may or may not know but I thought I'd check with you. Do you think it's safe to use the ECC31 in the Darkvoice 336se?


----------



## 3083joe

untilthen said:


> G you may or may not know but I thought I'd check with you. Do you think it's safe to use the ECC31 in the Darkvoice 336se? :bigsmile_face:



I'd say so if you have the adapter.


----------



## UntilThen

I sure do. I bought the pair of ECC31 and adapters for Elise which hasn't arrived. I'm not sure if the chinese amp DV336se can handle that driver.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> G you may or may not know but I thought I'd check with you. Do you think it's safe to use the ECC31 in the Darkvoice 336se? :bigsmile_face:




Be brave, UT...if not, throw the weak one in first


----------



## UntilThen

I should test with the 6N7G first I guess


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> G you may or may not know but I thought I'd check with you. Do you think it's safe to use the ECC31 in the Darkvoice 336se?


 
  
 I don't know if the DV can handle a driver which requires 0.95A of heater currrent. But the best question to ask in the DV community is... Is it safe to use the ECC32 in the DV? If the answer is yes, then the ECC31 is safe. And conversely, if it isn't safe to use the ECC32, then it is not safe to use the ECC31.


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> *I don't know if the DV can handle a driver which requires 0.95A of heater currrent. *But the best question to ask in the DV community is... Is it safe to use the ECC32 in the DV? If the answer is yes, then the ECC31 is safe. And conversely, if it isn't safe to use the ECC32, then it is not safe to use the ECC31.




I've been asking myself the same question. My feeling is that it's not, as the design even uses PSU caps a touch too small.


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks gents I should save the DV and tube. DV community is pretty much non existent now. We're the last Mohicans. It's ok Elise shouldn't be that much longer.


----------



## UntilThen

Sorry for being off topic...
  
 but I found the manufacturer of DV336se response to tubes used:-
  
 Yes, can use 6AS7 and 6SN7 instead of 6N5P and 6N8P. P.S. 1). 6AS7 , 6080, 5998, 6H5C instead of 6N5P. 2). 6H8C, 6SN7, CV181, 5692, ECC33 instead of 6N8P. Thanks.


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> but I found the manufacturer of DV336se response to tubes used:-
> 
> Yes, can use 6AS7 and 6SN7 instead of 6N5P and 6N8P. P.S. 1). 6AS7 , 6080, 5998, 6H5C instead of 6N5P. 2). 6H8C, 6SN7, CV181, 5692, ECC33 instead of 6N8P. Thanks.


 
  
 Hmmm....  In the British Common Valve nomenclature, CV181 = ECC32. However, to confuse the issue, there are several current production Chinese 6SN7 that are markeded as CV181. So if by CV181, the manufacturer means ECC32, the ECC31 is safe.... But unfortunately, it is not clear....
  
 Edit: Oh, found another site which states that the Shuguang Treasure series CV181Z draws only 0.6amps, identical to the 6SN7, so....


----------



## UntilThen

Haha It's ok G. I send them a specific question re whether the DV can handle 0.95A of heater current. I mention also specifically ECC31 with adapters and that ECC31 is similar to ECC32. Curious to know their response not that I'm particularly dying to use the ECC31 in the DV.


----------



## UntilThen

Amen to eBay refunding me in full for the blown up Tung Sol 5998 and despite the seller being deregistered and not responding. I have full confidence in shopping for my tubes on eBay now.


----------



## Shaffer

Ebay Sunday night: 

Picked up two pairs of CBS 6SN7GTs for a grand total of ~$24 shipped. Waited for the auction to end for a week. As I already have three pairs, I don't think I need to buy more. Ever. My Elise has been shod with Chatham 6080 and CBS GTs for almost a week - a new non-review-driven record.

Also scored a GE-made CBS rectifier that looks like a marital aid, $6 shipped, and a pair of oddball ST bottles - a type 80 and a 83V - for less than $10 to my door. 

Today, hopefully, I'll get the remaining matching tubes for the small drivers I've been auditioning and can finally complete the task. So, in a spritely 2-4 weeks expect some sort of delineation of sound quality. I can discuss a few of the tubes now, but would rather wait and do it all in one shot.


----------



## UntilThen

jazzvinyl said:


> I love it when a popular band like Dire Straits, includes instruments that are unusual for the Genre...
> 
> Like the Vibraphone and Marimba in "Private Investigations" on the Love Over Gold album.
> 
> ...


 

 Dire Straits songs love it so much at one time I overplayed it. I thought the movie Local Hero is funny and I love that song. And no don't know about the vibes and marimba.
  
 Here's sharing Allan Taylor and Chris Jones who appeared on Stockfish. I have this CD - EASCA and Tennessee Waltz a song so simple and timeless.This is a very well recorded version not the youtube version ....


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Dire Straits songs love it so much at one time I overplayed it. I thought the movie Local Hero is funny and I love that song. And no don't know about the vibes and marimba.
> 
> Here's sharing Allan Taylor and Chris Jones who appeared on Stockfish. I have this CD - EASCA and Tennessee Waltz a song so simple and timeless.This is a very well recorded version not the youtube version ....


 
 Yes, the Brothers in Arms release, was like Fleetwood Mac's Rumors...got so much airplay...got worn out.  Love Over Gold...much better in that regard.  Looks like the Vibes/Marimba parts were covered by keyboards in the live show.
  
 Beautiful acoustic guitar song you pointed us to...alarming how much great sound/details an acoustic guitar generates.  Will listen via Elise...later today


----------



## Shaffer

As I'm sitting here trying to get some work done, while burning in a set of drivers in the Elise, the WA6 is playing a newly acquired pair of RCA 6EW7s. Their predecessors, GE 6EW7s, could substitute for street lamps. The RCAs, OTOH, are dark. No glow. That's what they sounded like with a GZ34 - dim and dark. After playing around with a few rectifiers, I settled on the inverted-V plate 5AW4. Best sound from these tubes so far. I'm going to assume they're actual NOS and let them burn in for a bit. In a roundabout way, I kinda expected the tubes to sound a bit blah. Why? They're 6EW7s. That's one letter away from eww. Personal bias is a funny thing....


----------



## JohnBal

shaffer said:


> As I'm sitting here trying to get some work done, while burning in a set of drivers in the Elise, the WA6 is playing a newly acquired pair of RCA 6EW7s. Their predecessors, GE 6EW7s, could substitute for street lamps. The RCAs, OTOH, are dark. No glow. That's what they sounded like with a GZ34 - dim and dark. After playing around with a few rectifiers, I settled on the inverted-V plate 5AW4. Best sound from these tubes so far. I'm going to assume they're actual NOS and let them burn in for a bit. In a roundabout way, I kinda expected the tubes to sound a bit blah. Why? They're 6EW7s. That's one letter away from eww. Personal bias is a funny thing....



Now all you need is a pair of adapters and you can use your new CBS pair in the Woo. They are a nice pairing with the 5aw4.


----------



## aqsw

Another pair of tubes delivered today (rca 6f8g) and no amp to put them in. November can't come soon enough.


----------



## Shaffer

johnbal said:


> Now all you need is a pair of adapters and you can use your new CBS pair in the Woo. They are a nice pairing with the 5aw4.




I'm thinking about it, John. If I can't get satisfactory sound quality with stock-fit tubes, can't really see another option.

I guess the RCA 6EW7s were really NOS, as their character changed quite a bit over the last couple of hours. I'll give them ~50 hours before listening seriously.



aqsw said:


> Another pair of tubes delivered today (rca 6f8g) and no amp to put them in. November can't come soon enough.




I have two pairs of 6N7s sitting in front of me. Waiting for the adapters. It never ends.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Another pair of tubes delivered today (rca 6f8g) and no amp to put them in. November can't come soon enough.


 

 I thought you only wanted a set of tubes. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Welcome to tube madness. Like the song says, you can check in anytime but you can never leave.


----------



## Contrails

G'day everyone,
  
 I am planning on getting a tube amp for the LCD-X but the OTL amps including the Elise are suited to high Impedance headphones.  But looking at the pics, the Elise looks like it could be used as a preamp as well.  Can I use the Elise as a preamp to the V200 and then to the LCD-X? The v200 is missing the tube magic and IMO a tube amp really makes the LCD-X sing (I heard them on a CL algorythm trio - a portable valve amp and they sounded beautiful).  I am hoping the tube magic will be passed down the line to the LCD-X.  Or I am reading this whole idea wrong? 
  
 The other option would be to get the Algorythm trio, but I am waiting on a Metrum Mussette to arrive and the amp is gonna bottleneck the whole rig. So, the plan is Metrum Musette (single end) to Elise - preamp and then V200 to LCD-X!
  
 Thanks


----------



## Shaffer

Interestingly enough, I recently sold my V200. It was my favorite amp until getting the Elise. The V200 sounded lifeless and colorless next to it. Then, I just didn't use it much. You may want to try running the cans straight into the Elise, in lieu of using it as a pre for the V200. Good luck.


----------



## UntilThen

contrails said:


> G'day everyone,
> 
> I am planning on getting a tube amp for the LCD-X but the OTL amps including the Elise are suited to high Impedance headphones.  But looking at the pics, the Elise looks like it could be used as a preamp as well.  Can I use the Elise as a preamp to the V200 and then to the LCD-X? The v200 is missing the tube magic and IMO a tube amp really makes the LCD-X sing (I heard them on a CL algorythm trio - a portable valve amp and they sounded beautiful).  I am hoping the tube magic will be passed down the line to the LCD-X.  Or I am reading this whole idea wrong?
> 
> ...


 

 G'day !  Why don't you try and tell us. Speak to Lukasz about your plans and see what he says. He did tell Jerick that Elise with LCD-2 would be a 'great match'. See page 211.


----------



## hypnos1

untilthen said:


> I thought you only wanted a set of tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT.
  
 From the look of your mounting tube collection, I fear you probably are indeed lost forever, lol!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 But I sure am looking forward to your eventual findings - as a good few others must be also, no doubt...Your range will be most helpful in narrowing things down somewhat...or encouraging others down gibosi's "rabbit hole"!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 As for myself, my own 'rolling' has finally brought me to a level I feel I would need to spend really big bucks to go beyond. And I can only continue to admire the job Feliks-Audio have done with the Elise...enabling me to enter unexpected territory well beyond original configuration. Now with further burn-in of the FDD20/ECC31 combo (helped in no small measure by the GEC CV2523s, I am sure...), I can confirm this is my end-game set-up.
  
 This was finally cemented last night by revisiting Jeff Wayne's music CD "War of the Worlds", with Richard Burton narrating. Having thought I'd heard just about everything on this amazing album, I was not expecting such a shock...it was almost like listening to something I'd never heard before. I could hardly believe it was actually my beloved Elise - but something from another "summit-fi" land. Am still in shock, in fact...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







...So this is how her looks will remain, lol!...
  

  
 And I am happy...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...
  
 But I shall still look forward to your - and everyone else's - findings. Rest assured I will be watching very closely how things progress...
  
 HAPPY LISTENING!
  
 ps.  Hey JV, gibosi, MIKELAP....your mentioning of TTs has stirred me into bringing out of retirement my Heybrook/Linn/Ortofon combo...if I can find the time, that is!


----------



## Suuup

One question: 
 I want to buy a new set of driver tubes, just to dip a toe in the vast sea of tube rolling. Do I have to buy a matched pair of tubes, or can I buy 2 singles? Does this affect the sound quality?


----------



## UntilThen

suuup said:


> One question:
> I want to buy a new set of driver tubes, just to dip a toe in the vast sea of tube rolling. Do I have to buy a matched pair of tubes, or can I buy 2 singles? Does this affect the sound quality?


 

 Sure they will sound like Danny Devito and Arnie. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   It doesn't have to be matched. Look at what H1 is doing. He's getting awesome sound.


----------



## JazzVinyl

1635's as drivers:
  
 I did receive a beautiful pair of NOS JAN 1635's that UT was kind enough to send my way.
  
 Tried them via 6N7 adapters.  Very LOW volume and distorted sound.
  
 These high-gain tubes do not appear to be suitable to the Elise topology (as Lukasz had stated).
  
 .


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> As for myself, my own 'rolling' has finally brought me to a level I feel I would need to spend really big bucks to go beyond. And I can only continue to admire the job Feliks-Audio have done with the Elise...enabling me to enter unexpected territory well beyond original configuration. Now with further burn-in of the FDD20/ECC31 combo (helped in no small measure by the GEC CV2523s, I am sure...), I can confirm this is my end-game set-up.


 
 H1 please tell me 2 ECC31 sounds better than FDD20/ECC31 because I don't want to pull out my special battery and turn Elise into a sports car. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 That picture looks lovely though.


----------



## gibosi

contrails said:


> I am planning on getting a tube amp for the LCD-X but the OTL amps including the Elise are suited to high Impedance headphones...


 
  
 I am quite sure that the Elise is not a true OTL. They do not use the term OTL on their website. And further, in the technical specifications, they indicate that the amp can drive cans as low as 32 ohms. However, the LDC-X is a 20 ohm can and that just might be too low for the Elise. You should contact them directly....


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> H1 please tell me 2 ECC31 sounds better than FDD20/ECC31 because I don't want to pull out my special battery and turn Elise into a sports car.


 
  
 IMO... Get yourself a pair of ECC31s and don't look back.


----------



## gibosi

suuup said:


> One question:
> I want to buy a new set of driver tubes, just to dip a toe in the vast sea of tube rolling. Do I have to buy a matched pair of tubes, or can I buy 2 singles? Does this affect the sound quality?


 
  
 Of course, you can mix and match most anything. But I think you are asking about buying two of the same kind. And yes, this is fine. I do it all the time. You want to look for two tubes that have the same construction and were manufactured at about the same time. Further, it would be best if both had similar measurements. It wouldn't do to have one tube near death and the other brand new.


----------



## JazzVinyl

hypnos1 said:


> As for myself, my own 'rolling' has finally brought me to a level I feel I would need to spend really big bucks to go beyond. And I can only continue to admire the job Feliks-Audio have done with the Elise...enabling me to enter unexpected territory well beyond original configuration. Now with further burn-in of the FDD20/ECC31 combo (helped in no small measure by the GEC CV2523s, I am sure...), I can confirm this is my end-game set-up.
> This was finally cemented last night by revisiting Jeff Wayne's music CD "War of the Worlds", with Richard Burton narrating. Having thought I'd heard just about everything on this amazing album, I was not expecting such a shock...it was almost like listening to something I'd never heard before. I could hardly believe it was actually my beloved Elise - but something from another "summit-fi" land. Am still in shock, in fact...
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Wow, H1...
  
 The adapter you made for the FDD20!!  How beautiful!!  Looks like a coin base ECC31, incredible! 
  
 Very excellent work!
  
 And, delighted to hear that you plan to spin some vinyl soon, as well.  I think your going to absolutely love it 
  
  
 .


----------



## gibosi

hypnos1 said:


> ......I can confirm this is my end-game set-up.


 
  
 Ummm... I think you have said this before.... and more than once....  lol


----------



## MIKELAP




----------



## Shaffer

Got the ECC31 adapters and fired up the 6N7Gs. One just hisses, so I'm returning them. Fairly low gain, regardless. Wouldn't be trying more.

The JAN 1635 made a sound, but exhibited extremely low gain. I'm returning them, as well.

YMMV


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> Got the ECC31 adapters and fired up the 6N7Gs. One just hisses, so I'm returning them. Fairly low gain, regardless. Wouldn't be trying more.
> 
> The JAN 1635 made a sound, but exhibited extremely low gain. I'm returning them, as well.
> 
> YMMV


 
 Interesting, it's good to know this. Do you have actual ECC31's to try?  No hiss here and the hum on mine has now totally disappeared!


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> Interesting, it's good to know this. Do you have actual ECC31's to try?  No hiss here and the hum on mine has now totally disappeared!




No actual ECC31s, unfortunately. No Joybringers, either. lol


----------



## UntilThen

No hiss and no hum what a bliss.
  
 Anyone want to buy my low gain 1635?


----------



## hypnos1

contrails said:


> G'day everyone,
> 
> I am planning on getting a tube amp for the LCD-X but the OTL amps including the Elise are suited to high Impedance headphones.  But looking at the pics, the Elise looks like it could be used as a preamp as well.  Can I use the Elise as a preamp to the V200 and then to the LCD-X? The v200 is missing the tube magic and IMO a tube amp really makes the LCD-X sing (I heard them on a CL algorythm trio - a portable valve amp and they sounded beautiful).  I am hoping the tube magic will be passed down the line to the LCD-X.  Or I am reading this whole idea wrong?
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi Contrails...glad you made it over here. I only wish I had been able to try the XCs in my Elise at our meet here a while ago...they sounded great in Audiofanboy's Questyle Current Mode Amp - but of course that is a different animal to our tube amp. Hence my chagrin at not being able to compare, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. I did however give the LCD2s a brief try, and the amp drove them with ease. Not having heard them much in other amps before, I wasn't able to gain any meaningful assessment - especially as their signature is so different to my Beyer T1s. What I can say, however, is that in AFB's amp the 2s sounded veiled, overly soft, somewhat constrained compared to the XCs...rather unexciting (to my ears at least - especially compared to the T1s).
  
 As gibosi mentions, the Elise does not appear to be a _conventional_ OTL amp...the Feliks-Audio guys have come up with something very special in more ways than one - witness what I have been doing to the poor thing...and still she smiles!! Lukasz should indeed be the best source of advice...
  
  
 Thanks for the compliments guys...yeah, I'm pleased with the look as well as the sound - what more could one want?! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
  
 JV...that weird FDD20 base certainly is rather awkward to work with, but at least I prefer that to the commercially made adapter, lol! (Even if I have screwed one up...thank Heavens mordy steered me to a much cheaper source than my first "RVC" branded ones).
  
  


untilthen said:


> H1 please tell me 2 ECC31 sounds better than FDD20/ECC31 because I don't want to pull out my special battery and turn Elise into a sports car.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Hi UT...I can only state what I am hearing in my own particular set-up. Having given both options lengthy trials, I find the FDD20 does indeed bring an extra dimension to the sound. As I have mentioned before, this tube - in the Elise -  definitely extends the treble tonal range in particular, without detracting in any way at all from the 31's thunderous bass. But something else is also going on, that I just cannot properly put my finger on as yet. It is truly a case of "The whole being greater than the sum of its parts"...and in no small measure either.
 Having said that, 2x 31s are also killer, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 ps.  Really looking forward to seeing how _your_ 6N7Gs sound...
  


gibosi said:


> Ummm... I think you have said this before.... and more than once....  lol


 
  
 Too true, g...the needle is well and truly stuck! But previous "bests" all had an achilles heel of some sort (the ECC31s the least, however!). And given it is very doubtful that there is a tube to match the 31/(32) anywhere near the price (31), to be getting that extra from the FDD20/ECC31 combo has me more convinced than ever before (??!!??) it would take a miracle for this set-up to be surpassed - for MY ears, anyway...So I live in hope, lol!


mikelap said:


>


 
  
 Hey M...give me at least some HOPE, mon ami!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...PLEASE!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Has Brimar been sold too? This says foreign made(European) but the price is really good.
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310087990709?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&rmvSB=true


----------



## MIKELAP

untilthen said:


> Has Brimar been sold too? This says foreign made(European) but the price is really good.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/310087990709?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&rmvSB=true


 
 Dont know if you guys know this but when buying tubes from Langrex there always cheaper on there website rather than on Ebay . this one is only  a pound  cheaper but i would rather have it in my pocket !


----------



## Shaffer

After a bit of experimentation peppered with a good amount of profanity, I got 6N7Gs working. Can't say much about the sound, yet, but there's no shortage of bass.


----------



## aqsw

Looking for an fdd20 adaptor on ebay. No such thing?
just bought some fotons. I'm hooked!


----------



## aqsw

I was so close to buying a microzotl2. I cheaped out and bought the Elise, because I just loved he stealth look of it. I've already spent the price difference between the two on tubes. But, Im not complaining


----------



## UntilThen

Slow down Aqsw or you'll overtake gibosi. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Mike I'll remember the name Langrex.
  
 Good to hear that Shaffer. We may not be bass heads but we all love bass.
  
  
 These came together just !!! Oh Elise where are thou.
  
 5998 came in a plastic food container gotta love the seller. Brand new I better not drop it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





 ECC31s looks new except the wordings gone. The not so good one has a bit of particle sound when I turn the tube upside down.


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> Has Brimar been sold too? This says foreign made(European) but the price is really good.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/310087990709?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&rmvSB=true


 
  
 It appears to have been made in one of the Philips factories. However, without knowing the production code, it is very difficult to say which one....


----------



## gibosi

aqsw said:


> Looking for an fdd20 adaptor on ebay. No such thing?
> just bought some fotons. I'm hooked!


 
  
 I see adapters from three different vendors on eBay. Here you go:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Philips-FDD20-TO-12SN7-Tube-converter-adapter-/201418253970
  
 And I want to be sure you understand that it will be necessary to provide this tube with a 12 volt heater power supply.


----------



## aqsw

jazzvinyl said:


> 1635's as drivers:
> 
> I did receive a beautiful pair of NOS JAN 1635's that UT was kind enough to send my way.
> 
> ...




Any other opinions on the 1635s. I have two on the way and was hoping they wold be a fun pair. I may have to put them at the bottom of my testing order.


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> Slow down Aqsw or you'll overtake gibosi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 I have 5 more tubes on the way, so I doubt he is going to catch me. lol 
  
 It is not uncommon for there to be small particles of glass and/or mica inside vacuum tubes. Typically, these particles pose no problems.


----------



## aqsw

gibosi said:


> I see adapters from three different vendors on eBay. Here you go:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-Philips-FDD20-TO-12SN7-Tube-converter-adapter-/201418253970
> 
> And I want to be sure you understand that it will be necessary to provide this tube with a 12 volt heater power supply.




Thanks,
Dont really want to get too technical. Off my list.


----------



## aqsw

gibosi said:


> I have 5 more tubes on the way, so I doubt he is going to catch me. lol
> 
> It is not uncommon for there to be small particles of glass and/or mica inside vacuum tubes. Typically, these particles pose no problems.




I don't want to catch you.
 We could all have much worse vices than vacuum tubes. As another poster stated" we can always sell them". 
That's a good vice. Try to sell a bad one.


----------



## Shaffer

shaffer said:


> After a bit of experimentation peppered with a good amount of profanity, I got 6N7Gs working. Can't say much about the sound, yet, but there's no shortage of bass.




I'm sending the 6N7s back. After comparing them to my reference - 7N7 - there's nowhere else to go. The 7N7 dig out so much more detail, air, space, texture, and extension that it's not an altogether fair comparison. Sure, the 6N7s has huge bass, but it isn't very well defined nor is it as extended as the 7N7. It's as if the amplifier sunk down a class in performance. Last time I consider a recommendation from someone other than gibosi. Joybringers my ass.


----------



## UntilThen

aqsw said:


> Any other opinions on the 1635s. I have two on the way and was hoping they wold be a fun pair. I may have to put them at the bottom of my testing order.


 

 Yes the 1635 doesn't seem to be good. Put it on the Christmas tree.


----------



## Oskari

gibosi said:


> It appears to have been made in one of the Philips factories. However, without knowing the production code, it is very difficult to say which one....


 
  
 Do you perhaps mean the tube in the photo that follows…
  


mikelap said:


> Dont know if you guys know this but when buying tubes from Langrex there always cheaper on there website rather than on Ebay . this one is only  a pound  cheaper but i would rather have it in my pocket !


 
  


untilthen said:


> Has Brimar been sold too? This says foreign made(European) but the price is really good.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/310087990709?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&rmvSB=true


 
  
 … because the tube in the ebay photo looks like a possible Tesla to me?
  
 The tubes seem different anyway.


----------



## Shaffer

aqsw said:


> *I was so close to buying a microzotl2.* I cheaped out and bought the Elise, because I just loved he stealth look of it. I've already spent the price difference between the two on tubes. But, Im not complaining




I actually owned a Berning amp ages ago. Still have the weirdo tubes for it. David could never be accused of not marching to his own drummer.

Personally, I'd never buy the Microzotl2. Last thing I need are more RFI issues.


----------



## aqsw

shaffer said:


> I actually owned a Berning amp ages ago. Still have the weirdo tubes for it. David could never be accused of not marching to his own drummer.
> 
> Personally, I'd never buy the Microzotl2. Last thing I need are more RFI issues.




Wow, that's harsh, but makes me think I made the proper choice. They are going to hate you on the microz thread.


----------



## UntilThen

Quote: 





oskari said:


> Do you perhaps mean the tube in the photo that follows…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Yeah? I thought they look similar between the eBay photo and Mike's picture except the wordings move up on the eBay.


----------



## Shaffer

aqsw said:


> Wow, that's harsh, but makes me think I made the proper choice. *They are going to hate you on the microz thread*.






This is pretty much the only thread I post to on a consistent basis. Not just because I own an Elise. We have owners of all kinds of amps here, as you likely noticed, and most of us share a common passion. The bulk of the bigger, component-specific threads are fan fests. We've all read them. I guess this is a fan thread, too, but more for fans of tubes and the fun of playing with them, not fans of a specific piece of equipment. Perhaps a given grade of equipment, sure. It's a rare thing, IME.


----------



## Oskari

untilthen said:


> Oh wow so Mullard is also sold to a Russian company just as Tung Sol was?


 
  
 It's a US company, New Sensor, that now owns the rights to those names (and a factory in Russia).
  


untilthen said:


> Has Brimar been sold too? This says foreign made(European) but the price is really good.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/310087990709?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&rmvSB=true


 
  
 This relabeling seems older and was likely done by Brimar or their distributor.


----------



## aqsw

shaffer said:


> This is pretty much the only thread I post to on a consistent basis. Not just because I own an Elise. We have owners of all kinds of amps here, as you likely noticed, and most of us share a common passion. The bulk of the bigger, component-specific threads are fan fests. We've all read them. I guess this is a fan thread, too, but more for fans of tubes and the fun of playing with them, not fans of a specific piece of equipment. Perhaps a given grade of equipment, sure. It's a rare thing, IME.




Oh Crap, Now you tell me


----------



## UntilThen

oskari said:


> It's a US company, New Sensor, that now owns the rights to those names (and a factory in Russia).
> 
> 
> This relabeling seems older and was likely done by Brimar or their distributor.


 

 Thanks Oskari. I'm learning things everyday in this hobby.


----------



## gibosi

oskari said:


> Do you perhaps mean the tube in the photo that follows…
> 
> … because the tube in the ebay photo looks like a possible Tesla to me?
> 
> The tubes seem different anyway.


 
  
 Thanks for your insight and eagle eyes, as always. I confess that I didn't look very closely at that tube and just jumped to conclusion. But now that you mention it, I would agree. It looks more like Tesla than Philips.
  
 Cheers


----------



## Contrails

You guy are very helpful, really appreciate everyone's responses. Will keep everyone updated.


----------



## gibosi

shaffer said:


> I'm sending the 6N7s back. After comparing them to my reference - 7N7 - there's nowhere else to go. The 7N7 dig out so much more detail, air, space, texture, and extension that it's not an altogether fair comparison. Sure, the 6N7s has huge bass, but it isn't very well defined nor is it as extended as the 7N7. It's as if the amplifier sunk down a class in performance.....


 
  
 To be fair, we still don't have much experience with the 6N7. A number of folks have tried the metal tubes and so far, no one has had anything good to say about them. So I think it we are safe in not recommending them.
  
 I am not sure if anyone has tried the straight-glass types, so the jury is still out on them....
  
 We have had one report that a French-made ST-type 6N7, "the joybringer", sounds good. I am not sure which company manufactured it, but this is what they look like:
  
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/2X-TUBE-MAZDA-6N7-ENGLAND-ARMY-NAVY-STTA-EAGLE-PAIR-IDENTICAL-LOGO-MILITARY-NOS-/262024803550
  
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tube-lampe-6N7G-MINIWATT-DARIO-triode-triode-/141650350770
  
 And then there is the FDD20, which is a 6N7 with a different heater and base, which also sounds good.
  
 Based on that, I have been thinking about trying some American ST-type 6N7. I tend to believe that manufacturers have a "house" sound, so I have been looking for Tung-Sol, Sylvania and National Union, whose house sound I like. However, I have yet to find ST-types from these manufacturers.
  
 So most recently, I have been looking at 6A6, which preceded the 6N7. All of these appear to be have the ST-type bottle, but unfortunately, they require a different adapter. And to make matters worse, I couldn't find any adapters on eBay. However, I have been prodding a few of the adapter builders and one of them finally listed an adapter today.
  
 And the journey continues..... 
  

 Edit: Added FDD20


----------



## JazzVinyl

​ ​  
 .


----------



## UntilThen

contrails said:


> You guy are very helpful, really appreciate everyone's responses. Will keep everyone updated.


 

 No problem mate anytime.


----------



## hypnos1

gibosi said:


> To be fair, we still don't have much experience with the 6N7. A number of folks have tried the metal tubes and so far, no one has had anything good to say about them. So I think it we are safe in not recommending them.
> 
> I am not sure if anyone has tried the straight-glass types, so the jury is still out on them....
> 
> ...


 
  
 Thanks g for putting things straight re this family of tubes...and should be very interesting to see how the 6A6 fares. _What a journey,lol!!_


----------



## Shaffer

gibosi said:


> To be fair, we still don't have much experience with the 6N7. A number of folks have tried the metal tubes and so far, no one has had anything good to say about them. So I think it we are safe in not recommending them.
> 
> I am not sure if anyone has tried the straight-glass types, so the jury is still out on them....
> 
> [...]




To be clear, in no way did I mean to imply that my experience with these tubes defines their position. I am saying, however, that due to this experience I'm no longer interested in rolling other tubes of this type in my Elise. Nor will I be so stupid, as to take a blind shot based on a _belief _of competence. Had a week gone by, I likely would not have taken the plunge. Totally my fault and my responsibility.


----------



## JazzVinyl

gibosi said:


> And then there is the FDD20, which is a 6N7 with a different heater and base, which also sounds good.
> 
> Based on that, I have been thinking about trying some American ST-type 6N7. I tend to believe that manufacturers have a "house" sound, so I have been looking for Tung-Sol, Sylvania and National Union, whose house sound I like. However, I have yet to find ST-types from these manufacturers.
> 
> And the journey continues.....


 
  
 One Sylvania 6N7G (ST Envelope) has appeared on the market:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sylvania-6N7G-Tube-black-round-plates-pan-getter-strong-balanced-sections-/221880494901?hash=item33a91bab35
  
 Ebay Item # 221880494901
  
 Joy be to you 
  
 .


----------



## JazzVinyl

> Originally Posted by *gibosi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif
> We have had one report that a French-made ST-type 6N7, "the joybringer", sounds good. I am not sure which company manufactured it, but this is what they look like:
> 
> And the journey continues.....


 
  
 Visseaux is the brand for the French made 6N7G's - boxes say "License Sylvania".
 The second set are branded "GM", thought to be RCA's, but not 100% confirmed.
 Both sets provide quality sonics (in an Elise that can also use C3g tubes without error).
  
  
​  
 .


----------



## Renderman

gibosi said:


> Yes, I missed seeing the mu of 65 for the 1635 on the Radiomuseum's page. But what I don't understand is where did they find that value? It does not appear on RCA's datasheet and this is the only datasheet I can find online:
> 
> http://www.shinjo.info/frank/sheets/049/1/1635.pdf
> 
> But even if the mu is 65, the 6SL7 has a  mu of 70 and it works fine in my Glenn OTL and other similar 6SN7/6AS7 amps. And therefore, I can't imagine that running 6SL7s in the Elise could possibly present a problem. Ask Lukasz if the 6SL7 is OK in the Elise. And if it is, the 1635 will be fine as well.


 
 I've been usng a Sylvania 6SL7 in the Elise for a few hours now, works well and sounds great so far!


----------



## hypnos1

jazzvinyl said:


> ​ ​
> .


 
  
 Nice, JV...glad you're able to do these tubes proper justice...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...look forward to others' experience with them so we can get a meaningful concensus...


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> I've been usng a Sylvania 6SL7 in the Elise for a few hours now, works well and sounds great so far!


 
  
 Hi R...another possible then! Hope you'll give us a comparison to the ECC31, lol...


----------



## Renderman

looking good indeed JV! Will you keep this set-up?
  
 Who else here has been using the Oppo BDP-105D? I remember reading some members we're very positive towards it. I got offered one at a very good price and wondering if I should take the opportunity


----------



## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> Hi R...another possible then! Hope you'll give us a comparison to the ECC31, lol...


 
 Give me a few hours 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And then I will also be able to tell you if a 6BL7 works well in the Elise


----------



## gibosi

renderman said:


> Give me a few hours
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 As a power tube, I hope. The 6BL7 heater draws 1.5 amps, too much to use as a driver in the Elise, I believe.....


----------



## hypnos1

renderman said:


> looking good indeed JV! Will you keep this set-up?
> 
> Who else here has been using the Oppo BDP-105D? I remember reading some members we're very positive towards it. I got offered one at a very good price and wondering if I should take the opportunity


 
  
 All I can say, R, is that if its ESS Sabre configuration is as good as is in my Audiolab 8200CD (as I suspect is in fact the case), and the price is good...GO FOR IT! You then have a multi-media player (not forgetting its great Blu Ray function!) with top rate DAC...a no-brainer, lol!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 
  
 ps. My 103 sadly doesn't have the same DAC, which is why I use mine as player and coaxed out to the A/Lab...


----------



## UntilThen

Retro looking picture of Elise.
  
 I think it's a typo error. Ren was refering to 6SL7 earlier.


----------



## Renderman

gibosi said:


> As a power tube, I hope. The 6BL7 heater draws 1.5 amps, too much to use as a driver in the Elise, I believe.....


 
 Sure as a power tube... but by this point, i'm brave enough to try it as a driver tube too. Maybe not for an extended session but I think the Elise can handle it, at least for a few tens of minutes. I'll keep a close eye on the temperature and let you know 
  


hypnos1 said:


> All I can say, R, is that if its ESS Sabre configuration is as good as is in my Audiolab 8200CD (as I suspect is in fact the case), and the price is good...GO FOR IT! You then have a multi-media player (not forgetting its great Blu Ray function!) with top rate DAC...a no-brainer, lol!!


 
  
 I know Shaffer was quite happy with it and the Oppo and Sabre DAC are hailed by many so can't be all bad. And indeed, I do like all the extra functionality it has. Blu-ray, Streaming, Network connectivity, Netflix, HDMI in/out, Surround and Balanced analog outputs and many more. I'd have to sell my current DAC though.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> Retro looking picture of Elise. JV was a pro photographer.
> 
> I think it's a typo error. Ren was refering to 6SL7 earlier.


 
 No typo  Have a set of 6SL7 and 6BL7s here, as well as a set of Edicron ECC35 I took a chance on..


----------



## UntilThen

This is like a tube rolling live streaming. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Elise is really versatile despite Lukasz saying the 6SL7 is not suitable. A longer term test is necessary. Keen to hear what you think of those tubes.


----------



## Shaffer

renderman said:


> I know Shaffer was quite happy with it and the Oppo and Sabre DAC are hailed by many so can't be all bad. And indeed, I do like all the extra functionality it has. Blu-ray, Streaming, Network connectivity, Netflix, HDMI in/out, Surround and Balanced analog outputs and many more. I'd have to sell my current DAC though.




The 105 is one of the best, period. A group from my home from, including the mastering engineer who did HD tracks, auditioned the 105 against a full dCS stack ($100K+). The difference was minuscule. Personally, I've had a multitude of DACs in my system, and players, as well, and never bought a single one. Not one was even close to my turntable. The 105 changed all that. 

BTW, this is the room where the audition took place. It's actually a separate house built specifically for audio: 







FWIW, I'm not a headphone guy. I run a dedicated room system. Not as elaborate as Mike's, of course, but it does OK. I mention this as a pointer to my personal point of reference.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> The 105 is one of the best, period. A group from my home from, including the mastering engineer who did HD tracks, auditioned the 105 against a full dCS stack ($100K+). The difference was minuscule. Personally, I've had a multitude of DACs in my system, and players, as well, and never bought a single one. Not one was even close to my turntable. The 105 changed all that.
> 
> BTW, this is the room where the audition took place. It's actually a separate house built specifically for audio:
> 
> FWIW, I'm not a headphone guy. I run a dedicated room system. Not as elaborate as Mike's, of course, but it does OK. I mention this as a pointer to my personal point of reference.


 
  
 Ok ok ok.. you have won me over already! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Seller is aking about one third of its MSRP and I might have already found a buyer for my current DAC so it will almost pay for itself! I'll do it! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Kind of excited now... 
  
 Have the Edicron ECC35 in the Elise now, not bad so far..


----------



## Shaffer

I'm getting ahead of myself, but want to share this with my tube brethren:

RCA 6BQ7A - 3 left. The tubes I got are the white labels:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171921769824?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=470833191070&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

RCA 6BQ7A (same tube) - 4 left. White labels:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201426731964?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

These are perhaps one of the best sounding small signal tubes I've auditioned in the Elise. They sound very vivid; those hoping for harmonic richness should look elsewhere.. The red labels are a notch below in sound quality, IME.

Edit: you will need 6CG7 to 6SL7 adapters which will also allow you to try these bottles and the rest of the tubes to be discussed in a few weeks.

Edit: text, mistake in nomenclature.


----------



## Renderman

shaffer said:


> I'm getting ahead of myself, but want to share this with my tube brethren:
> 
> RCA 6BQ7A - 3 left. The tubes I got are the white labels:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/171921769824?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=470833191070&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


 
 Argh, would love to try these as well, again shipping is holding me back... *$39.50* for shipping to Europe...


----------



## gibosi

renderman said:


> Argh, would love to try these as well, again shipping is holding me back... *$39.50* for shipping to Europe...


 
  
 When you search for these, note that 6BQ7A = ECC180 = 6BS8 = 6BZ7.


----------



## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 Indeed brave to try 1.5A tubes as Elise drivers - the 6SL7. However, in my Little Dot days I found the 1.5A 6BX7 to sound better.
  
 These tubes are inexpensive and readily available = over 100 listings today on eBay.


----------



## Shaffer

I've never tried a 6BL7 as a driver. The 1.5A draw is a little frighting. A great sounding output tube, though.


----------



## MIKELAP

shaffer said:


> I'm getting ahead of myself, but want to share this with my tube brethren:
> 
> RCA 6BQ7A - 3 left. The tubes I got are the white labels:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/171921769824?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=470833191070&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> ...


 
 It is a nice sounding tube the 6BQ7A i have the Westinghouse and RCA I use them in LITTLEDOT MK3 with adapter and WA2


----------



## JazzVinyl

mikelap said:


> It is a nice sounding tube the 6BQ7A i have the Westinghouse and RCA I use them in LITTLEDOT MK3 with adapter and WA2


 
  
 There is that way cool Steam Punk adapter that Mike makes!!!
  
 .


----------



## Shaffer

That's actually not the best tube I've found, but it's very good. Gotta have something for saved for the survey of small drivers.


----------



## UntilThen

6BQ7A 6BZ7 6BC8 6BK7B 6BZ8 6BS8 (all these fit in the 6CG7/6GU7 to 6SN7 adapter) were shown to us by a very kind and knowledgeable gentleman on the DV thread to whom I'm greatly indebted. A while back I posted a pic of 5 red shiny RCAs (6BQ7A) which I ordered and coming my way.


----------



## Shaffer

untilthen said:


> *6BQ7A 6BZ7 6BC8 6BK7B 6BZ8 6BS8 (all these fit in the 6CG7/6GU7 to 6SN7 adapter) *were shown to us by a very kind and knowledgeable gentleman on the DV thread to whom I'm greatly indebted. A while back I posted a pic of 5 red shiny RCAs (6BQ7A) which I ordered and coming my way.




6922/6DJ8 do, as well.


----------



## gibosi

untilthen said:


> 6BQ7A 6BZ7 6BC8 6BK7B 6BZ8 6BS8 (all these fit in the 6CG7/6GU7 to 6SN7 adapter) were shown to us by a very kind and knowledgeable gentleman on the DV thread to whom I'm greatly indebted. A while back I posted a pic of 5 red shiny RCAs (6BQ7A) which I ordered and coming my way.


 
  
 This is the tube that comes stock in the Lyr. However, most in the Lyr community believe that the 6DJ8/ECC88 family of tubes is better, especially 6922/E88CC/6N23P and 7308/E188CC.
  
 Also the 6GA8/ECC804, 6AQ8/ECC85, 7DJ8/PCC88 and a number of other tubes will also work using the same adapter.


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Hi Renderman,
> 
> Indeed brave to try 1.5A tubes as Elise drivers - the 6SL7. However, in my Little Dot days I found the 1.5A 6BX7 to sound better.
> 
> These tubes are inexpensive and readily available = over 100 listings today on eBay.


 
 I can report the 6SL7 tubes work and perform well as drivers in the Elise they sound very good but... as expected they do run a bit hot. After more than 2 hours the temperature of the Elise was almost 5 degrees of her normal cool self. So I decided to give her some rest and end my experiment there. I think the temperature would keep on rising if they would have been left runnng together.
  
 I'm glad to know the Elise can even survive this (1.5 amps). I am confident a 1 amp tube, probably even drawng somewhat more would run all day long on the Elise.
  
 The Edicron ECC35s are actually doing better than expected, no hiss or hum with solid bass. Slightly lacking in detail and resolution up top but, they just might get better after burn-in.
  
 Even if we can't drive the price down on the ECC31/32 with a single tube, there are certainly a lot of good options out there. Lets hope diversity will help even out the prices somewhat


----------



## UntilThen

I was hoping that too Ren.  Already notice price of 6SN7 dropping and hopefully ECC31 too as focus is shifted away from them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




  
 Excellent thread going on here. Keep it coming. We have more and more options at cheaper prices.


----------



## UntilThen

gibosi said:


> This is the tube that comes stock in the Lyr. However, most in the Lyr community believe that the 6DJ8/ECC88 family of tubes is better, especially 6922/E88CC/6N23P and 7308/E188CC.
> 
> Also the 6GA8/ECC804, 6AQ8/ECC85, 7DJ8/PCC88 and a number of other tubes will also work using the same adapter.


 

 I would love a pair of Amperex 7308 but it is so expensive.


----------



## MIKELAP

gibosi said:


> untilthen said:
> 
> 
> > 6BQ7A 6BZ7 6BC8 6BK7B 6BZ8 6BS8 (all these fit in the 6CG7/6GU7 to 6SN7 adapter) were shown to us by a very kind and knowledgeable gentleman on the DV thread to whom I'm greatly indebted. A while back I posted a pic of 5 red shiny RCAs (6BQ7A) which I ordered and coming my way.
> ...


 
 Really like my Miniwatt Dario E188CC and Philips SQ 7308/E188CC in the WA2 very nice high end


----------



## UntilThen

Those are the tubes I want Mike. Mighty mouse I call them.


----------



## MIKELAP

Also received a couple pairs of Philco 6N7 straight glass greyglass and some RCA 6AS7G  today.I have to say at $7.00 each for the 6N7  there nothing outstanding about them but nothing bad either  imo.thats using a Raytheon 5R4GWGB rectifier and a pair of RCA early 50's 6AS7G as power tubes  with the WA22  and Senns HD 800


----------



## TomNC

@MIKELAP
  
 What are the power tubes in your Little Dot III picture just posted? They look nice. Thanks.


----------



## JazzVinyl

mikelap said:


> Also received a couple pairs of Philco 6N7 straight glass greyglass and some RCA 6AS7G  today.I have to say at $7.00 each for the 6N7  there nothing outstanding about them but nothing bad either  imo.thats using a Raytheon 5R4GWGB rectifier and a pair of RCA early 50's 6AS7G as power tubes  with the WA22  and Senns HD 800


 
  
 Yep, I tested all styles of 6N7's...only the ST style magically transports molecules through space and time...to arrive the moment and location where the music is being created.
  












  ​ .​


----------



## UntilThen

Thanks Mike for the pictures. I love pictures. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Here's my contribution.


----------



## JazzVinyl

​


----------



## MIKELAP

tomnc said:


> @MIKELAP
> 
> What are the power tubes in your Little Dot III picture just posted? They look nice. Thanks.


 
 They look like a pair of Sylvanias 6SN7WGT


----------



## MIKELAP

untilthen said:


> Thanks Mike for the pictures. I love pictures.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## UntilThen

mikelap said:


> They look like a pair of Sylvanias 6SN7WGT


 
 I have one of those and really love it. I need to find another.


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## mordy

Hi Renderman,
  
 Do you use socket savers? I have found that they act as insulators between the tube and the chassis and significantly lower the temperature of the amp.
  
 The Elise manual calls for a 30 cm space above the amp for cooling purposes. I used to use two computer fans to draw away the hot air because my Elise is sitting on a rack shelf, but with the socket savers I don't need the fans running.


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## UntilThen

I've decided to trade in Elise for this because I think it will power any headphones.


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## Contrails

> I've decided to trade in Elise for this because I think it will power any headphones


 
  
 Well, hopefully it comes as a package so you have something to eat while listening to your headphones.


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## hypnos1

mikelap said:


> Also received a couple pairs of Philco 6N7 straight glass greyglass and some RCA 6AS7G  today.I have to say at $7.00 each for the 6N7  there nothing outstanding about them but nothing bad either  imo.thats using a Raytheon 5R4GWGB rectifier and a pair of RCA early 50's 6AS7G as power tubes  with the WA22  and Senns HD 800


 
 Hey M...Coke Bottles rule OK?!!! ...




   
 



jazzvinyl said:


> Yep, I tested all styles of 6N7's...only the ST style magically transports molecules through space and time...to arrive the moment and location where the music is being created.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 Don't like Coke JV...but LOVE the bottles!!
  


jazzvinyl said:


> ​


 
  
 Think you're in for a very pleasant surprise, mon ami...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


untilthen said:


> I've decided to trade in Elise for this because I think it will power any headphones.


 
  
 Would trade in my _*life*_...for this complete package, UT!!


----------



## Renderman

mordy said:


> Hi
> Renderman,
> 
> Do you use socket savers? I have found that they act as insulators between the tube and the chassis and significantly lower the temperature of the amp.
> ...




Hi Mordy,

I didn't use socket savers for this as I wanted to see how the tubes fared in the Elise.

Im sure the Elise with savers and active cooling would run quite a while without overheating.

The Edicron ECC35 sound surprisingly good! Can anyone confirm these as being true ECC35s?


----------



## SonicTrance

renderman said:


> Hi Mordy,
> 
> I didn't use socket savers for this as I wanted to see how the tubes fared in the Elise.
> 
> ...


 

  
  
  
  
 Those are not Mullard made ECC35's from what I can tell. Plates and construction looks different. Probably 6SL7's, I believe.


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## UntilThen

MisterX your tubes are very beautiful. I'm going to try and return my 'old' ECC31s and buy NOS.


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## Renderman

sonictrance said:


> Those are not Mullard made ECC35's from what I can tell. Plates and construction looks different. Probably 6SL7's, I believe.


 
 Yep, I figured as much, Rebranded 6SL7 is probably right. For the price of a set of these I don't mind them at all!


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## JazzVinyl

Another single Sylvania 6N7G in ST Envelope has appeared:
  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TUBES-1-Sylvania-6N7G-ST-fat-glass-dual-triode-power-tube-WE-Hickok-tested-/121774821740?
  
 .


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## MIKELAP

untilthen said:


> I've decided to trade in Elise for this because I think it will power any headphones.


 
 Having had bikes since the 70's i would sell a few amps to get a 200hp tire burning Vmax .Closest i came to that was this one a Kawasaki Concours 14 .but this one(below) i really liked a V-twin Yamaha Warrior 1700cc


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## MIKELAP

jazzvinyl said:


> mikelap said:
> 
> 
> > Also received a couple pairs of Philco 6N7 straight glass greyglass and some RCA 6AS7G  today.I have to say at $7.00 each for the 6N7  there nothing outstanding about them but nothing bad either  imo.thats using a Raytheon 5R4GWGB rectifier and a pair of RCA early 50's 6AS7G as power tubes  with the WA22  and Senns HD 800
> ...


 
 Dont know what your taking but i want some


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## JazzVinyl

mikelap said:


> Dont know what your taking but i want some


 
  
 Beam me up, Elise!


----------



## UntilThen

mikelap said:


> Having had bikes since the 70's i would sell a few amps to get a 200hp tire burning Vmax .Closest i came to that was this one a Kawasaki Concours 14 .but this one(below) i really liked a V-twin Yamaha Warrior 1700cc


 
 Really beautiful bikes Mike. The one I show is a Yamaha VMAX superbike.


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## TomNC

Thanks, MIKELAP.
  
 Still weighing the pros and cons regarding upgrading power tubes for the LD III or upgrading the amp itself to Elise or something else. I have a pair of HD800 coming and need to find an amp that can drive them brilliantly.


----------



## JazzVinyl

tomnc said:


> Thanks, MIKELAP.
> 
> Still weighing the pros and cons regarding upgrading power tubes for the LD III or upgrading the amp itself to Elise or something else. I have a pair of HD800 coming and need to find an amp that can drive them brilliantly.


 
  
 Pretty easy to predict that you will get the vote for purchasing the Elise, in this thread, Tom 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  
 Don't think you would regret it, it's a wonderful amp.
  
 Cheers...


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## Renderman

jazzvinyl said:


> Pretty easy to predict that you will get the vote for purchasing the Elise, in this thread, Tom
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ofcourse he does! But he already (subconciously) wants the Elise... he just wants us to convince him 
  
 Come on Tom, join the fun! We would be glad to have you


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## Shaffer

tomnc said:


> Thanks, MIKELAP.
> 
> Still weighing the pros and cons regarding *upgrading power tubes for the LD III* or upgrading the amp itself to Elise or something else. I have a pair of HD800 coming and need to find an amp that can drive them brilliantly.




FWIW, I had a LDIII with upgraded power tubes. The Elise is whole different class of animal in every way imaginable.


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## hypnos1

renderman said:


> Ok ok ok.. you have won me over already!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  
 One third of MSRP, R?...that's pure daylight robbery - on YOUR part, lol! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. Even without a buyer for your DAC, beg/steal/borrow the necessary!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



  


untilthen said:


> MisterX your tubes are very beautiful. I'm going to try and return my 'old' ECC31s and buy NOS.


 
  
 Good luck with that, UT...I notice he's at it again - no listing of measurements in the text...but "on the white labels", one of which it is impossible to see the all-important plate mA figures...NAUGHTY, in my book lol! (100% rating?...hmmmm....).
  


mikelap said:


> Dont know what your taking but i want some


 
  
 It's simple, M...get yourself an Elise, stick in 2x ECC31s or my 31/FDD20 combo, and join us up in the clouds lol!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	








tomnc said:


> Thanks, MIKELAP.
> 
> Still weighing the pros and cons regarding upgrading power tubes for the LD III or upgrading the amp itself to Elise or something else. I have a pair of HD800 coming and need to find an amp that can drive them brilliantly.


 
  
 This amp will make your HD800s sing like an angel...you know you have NO CHOICE!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




...


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## mordy

Ht TomNC,
  
 Having had extensive experience with the MKIII, I can only say what I said before:
  
 Once you have the Elise, there is no return to the Little Dot MKIII.
  
 The only reason I did not sell mine yet is because I need to test a couple of hundred tubes for the MKIII that I plan to sell one day. Really, I have not used the LD since I got the Elise.
  
 6AK5 family tubes? Mullard, Voskhod, Amperex, Tung Sol, RCA, Sylvania, GE, Raytheon, unknown, nolabel, relabel - I got them.  
  
 Ar least Shaffer claims that some small signal tubes work well in the Elise - got a bunch of them as well. We'll see when the adapters come in.....


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## Renderman

hypnos1 said:


> One third of MSRP, R?...that's pure daylight robbery - on YOUR part, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ha! Call it what you want, I'm glad I finally found it for that price (been searching since it was first mentioned on this thread!) and I don't think I would have bought it if the price was much higher. Not to worry Hypnos1, payment has been made and the Oppo is on it's way over here! Hope to receive it soon, really excited.


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## Shaffer

It's inexpensive rectifier day! Playing a Type 80 right now. Looks NOS. Made by the Packard Company. I couldn't resist the automotive connection. In some ways, it sounds better than the Brimar it replaced. There are three more rectifiers to audition that arrived this morning. Total cost? ~$40.

The rectifier I'm really excited about is a NOS #83V, which will hopefully get here tomorrow. Can't wait to hear it! ($10 shipped)

Also received the last contestant in the small driver battle - a gold pin pair of the possible winner. It'll be interesting to hear if there's a sonic difference next to the non-gold pin version.


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## mordy

Hi Shaffer,
  
 6922?


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## Shaffer

mordy said:


> Hi Shaffer,
> 
> 6922?




It hums in my Elise. Loud enough to wake the dead. Oddly enough, it makes less noise not using dedicated 6922 adapters. Still too annoying for fun and games. Sounds great in a DV, though.


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## Shaffer

For an eyeopener on pricing, folks should read the big Woo thread. They're talking about $200+ signal tubes and $500+ rectifiers to install in a $700 amp; actually, some of us aren't all that different, now that I think about it. Folks actually do it. Not a small number, either. Mind you, I'm not harping on the cost of the tubes - the market determines their value - but I am commenting on installing what are likely excellent bottles in an amp that's barely able to surpass a DV in sound quality. The Elise? Not even in the same sonic universe as the WA6. 

Still, the fog over the music remains with the WA6, even though I've acquired decent bottles. Lessened by a large degree with careful tube selection, but still there. As are the dulled transients, the overly soft presentation - nothing is meant to offend, but some music is and the amp fails to come up to par. The WA6 is a component aimed at someone fond of its tonal balance and its look. The Elise, OTOH, is aimed at an individual concerned with resolution and transparency. If the record rocks, so does the Elise. If the record is filled with recorded space, the Elise presents it with ease. The WA6 pretty much sounds the same no matter what. Yes, there are changes with tube selection, but its core presentation remains the same.

I rated the LDIII as Class-C on the Stereophile grading scale, the DV as borderline Class-B (tube dependent), and the WA6 ranks about the same. With _stock _tubes, however, it's Class-C; the LDIII may even be slightly more resolving and involving musically.


----------



## TomNC

Thanks for your votes of confidence in the Elise. I plan to put my LD III on sale this weekend and keep the C3gs tubes that I like a lot.


----------



## UntilThen

Hi Tom, I change my mind again. I will keep Elise instead of the complete package. I hope you're convinced now.


----------



## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> Good luck with that, UT...I notice he's at it again - no listing of measurements in the text...but "on the white labels", one of which it is impossible to see the all-important plate mA figures...NAUGHTY, in my book lol! (100% rating?...hmmmm....).


 
 True H1 but I won't commend anymore on the seller until the final outcome. One thing I learn from this is it pays to buy NOS when it comes to good tubes like the ECC31 / 32. My experience with the 5998 has taught me that. I bought 2 sets of 5998. The new pair is just incredibly new haha.
  
 So I'm determined to hunt down a pair of NOS ECC31 that tested well with no physical impairments even if I have to go to Mars to get it.


----------



## Renderman

untilthen said:


> True H1 but I won't commend anymore on the seller until the final outcome. One thing I learn from this is it pays to buy NOS when it comes to good tubes like the ECC31 / 32. My experience with the 5998 has taught me that. I bought 2 sets of 5998. The new pair is just incredibly new haha.
> 
> So I'm determined to hunt down a pair of NOS ECC31 that tested well with no physical impairments even if I have to go to Mars to get it.


 
 I would have to agree with you there UT, once I find a tube I like I will be looking for a nice NOS pair. They usually look and perform better and will normally last a lot longer than used tubes. To me that is worth the premium.


----------



## UntilThen

Just heard from Lukasz that my Elise should be less than 2 weeks. Yeehaa.


----------



## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Just heard from Lukasz that my Elise should be less than 2 weeks. Yeehaa.


 
  
 Good news!!!!


----------



## UntilThen

Hi Mordy I really like how the 6N23P rockets sounded in my DV. I'll try it out in the Elise and let you know if it hums or sings I'm really hoping the latter because it's still cheap compared to premium 6922 or ECC88.


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## JazzVinyl

untilthen said:


> Hi Mordy I really like how the 6N23P rockets sounded in my DV. I'll try it out in the Elise and let you know if it hums or sings I'm really hoping the latter because it's still cheap compared to premium 6922 or ECC88.


 
  
 If your 6922/6N23P's buzz or hum, instead of sound beautiful, you will know your Elise is not wired like everyone else's, and needs to go back,  for a health check..
  
 Know you have C3gS's and adapters ready to go as well, UT,  and they too, should work perfectly 
  
 Cheers!


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## UntilThen

hypnos1 said:


> It's simple, M...get yourself an Elise, stick in 2x ECC31s or my 31/FDD20 combo, and join us up in the clouds lol!!


 
 What are you waiting for Mike. We need your large collection of tubes and your sense of humour.


----------



## HeadFierUsername2022

Hello to everybody,


I don' t want to steal the thread, but I don' t think it' s necessary to make another topic out of it.


My gear: Laptop --> Violectric v800 --> Elise --> Beyer T1

I hear a scratching noise in the left channel, just like there' s a weak cable connection. Connected the headphones directly to the laptop and there are no such problems.
I followed a advice to turn on first the amp for 5 minutes and then to plug in the headsets. Did that, and after that, I have this scratching noise.

So, I know the headset is not the issue. Could I be something from the connector adapter, maybe from the Elise (bad connection, bad tube(s) ) , DAC?

Any suggestions or quick fixes?


Thanks!


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## mordy

blckmag said:


> Hello to everybody,
> 
> 
> I don' t want to steal the thread, but I don' t think it' s necessary to make another topic out of it.
> ...


Hello blckmag,

Since you have the Elise in the chain, I would check the vacuum tube connections and the tube pins. Shut off the amp, let it cool down for a couple of minutes (to discharge capacitors) and then switch one tube at a time right/left. If the right channel now makes noise you know it is the tube. (Only pull out tubes by the base; not the glass part.)
Once you find the offending tube, gently scrape the pins with a pen knife, scissors etc (does not have to be sharp) and reinsert. If one tube with clean pins and good contact continues to make noise, leave it on for several hours - maybe burning it in will make it behave better.
If these things don't work you will have to replace the tube.
The above is only trouble shooting for tubes - could be other things as well. Just check all connections......


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## HeadFierUsername2022 (Oct 19, 2017)

mordy said:


> Hello blckmag,
> 
> Since you have the Elise in the chain, I would check the vacuum tube connections and the tube pins. Shut off the amp, let it cool down for a couple of minutes (to discharge capacitors) and then switch one tube at a time right/left. If the right channel now makes noise you know it is the tube. (Only pull out tubes by the base; not the glass part.)
> Once you find the offending tube, gently scrape the pins with a pen knife, scissors etc (does not have to be sharp) and reinsert. If one tube with clean pins and good contact continues to make noise, leave it on for several hours - maybe burning it in will make it behave better.
> ...





Hello,


Thanks for your suggestions.
Will try it out. Hope it fixes it and nothing else broke. I know the amp wasn' t burned that much. about 50 hours.
Will test it on this:




Thanks again!


L.E. : So I left just the Right one, sounded OK. Now, just the Left one and is everything normal (no more scratches) . I will later try them both again, to see if something is up. If the scratch reappears, could it be something from the wiring (short somewhere) ?


----------



## DecentLevi

@blckmag  keep us in the loop on your 'scratching' issue. Is it akin to a subtle rustling of paper sound through one channel? If so, the same happened to me.


----------



## angpsi

My Elise is currently on the bench table of Feliks Audio for a health checkup for the same issue, i.e. scratching noise on the right channel. Still in warranty, so anything needing fixing will probably be fixed!

If it’s not the tubes then I’d suggest you contact FA for a similar arrangement.


----------



## HeadFierUsername2022

DecentLevi said:


> @blckmag  keep us in the loop on your 'scratching' issue. Is it akin to a subtle rustling of paper sound through one channel? If so, the same happened to me.




Hello,


Problem fixed. At least for now. To make an idea how the sound was, in my case, listen to Hendrix- Voodoo Child (Slight Return) ; the scratching from the beginning of the song, in the right channel. Something like that I had every few seconds in my left one (regardless of the song) .




angpsi said:


> My Elise is currently on the bench table of Feliks Audio for a health checkup for the same issue, i.e. scratching noise on the right channel. Still in warranty, so anything needing fixing will probably be fixed!
> 
> If it’s not the tubes then I’d suggest you contact FA for a similar arrangement.




Hello,


Hope it won' t be necessary. Plus, I bought it SH, and I am guessing the warranty is void because of this.
If you get a reason of `resurrection` , I am curious what the problem was.


Thanks!


----------



## angpsi

blckmag said:


> Hope it won' t be necessary. Plus, I bought it SH, and I am guessing the warranty is void because of this.
> If you get a reason of `resurrection` , I am curious what the problem was.


I'm pretty sure the warranty is transferable. And since it lasts for two years, there's a strong chance you might still be on warranty given that the Elise is only now closing in its two year birthday!


----------



## hypnos1

blckmag said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> Problem fixed. At least for now. To make an idea how the sound was, in my case, listen to Hendrix- Voodoo Child (Slight Return) ; the scratching from the beginning of the song, in the right channel. Something like that I had every few seconds in my left one (regardless of the song) .
> ...



Hi blckmag, and welcome to Elise land.

Firstly, well done for aquiring this very good amp at what was probably a bargain price, given the latest price rises lol!...I sincerely hope so!!  ...

And secondly, well done for finding my original 'Elise' thread, which I thought was lost in the mists of time after banned member Shaffer managed to bring about its demise! ...

Thirdly, sorry to hear of your 'scratching' issue, but as @mordy said, this is often due to poor or dirty tube pin contact, or poor cable connection somewhere. Hopefully yours was indeed just down to tube(s)...but another culprit - especially in amps that have had a lot of tube insertion/removal - can be the actual sockets. That particular design of pin receptor is prone to developing a loose connection with the pins, and which is what happened to my own amp, along with occasional others (who were, like me, avid tube rollers!!). This is easily remedied however, by (carefully) prising together the top parts of the receptor so as to reduce the increased distance between them and reinstate a tighter grip on the pins. This is one reason why I asked F-A to install better quality sockets in Euforia...but which can sometimes be a tad _too_ tight, depending on thickness of pins and whether nicely smooth or not - swings and roundabouts, alas!! 

Lastly, I hope you will be able to find the time to peruse the other later Elise threads - I'm sure you would find some very useful and interesting information, not only about Elise but other related topics also...GOOD LUCK!!...and best wishes for many happy hours enjoying your amp, as many others have done before you...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## mordy

hypnos1 said:


> Hi blckmag, and welcome to Elise land.
> 
> Firstly, well done for aquiring this very good amp at what was probably a bargain price, given the latest price rises lol!...I sincerely hope so!!  ...
> 
> ...



Just wanted to mention that I have avoided wearing out the sockets in the amp by using socket savers. In addition to saving the original sockets from wear, they act as heat insulators and the amp runs less hot. (But h1 is going to say that they may degrade the sound by the fact that there is one more connection in the chain.....)


----------



## DecentLevi

I think H1 was on the fence on that one, but myself and others had notices absolutely no loss of purity with the socket savers - though I would imagine one with fancy intercconects may bring changes


----------



## hypnos1

mordy said:


> Just wanted to mention that I have avoided wearing out the sockets in the amp by using socket savers. In addition to saving the original sockets from wear, they act as heat insulators and the amp runs less hot. (But h1 is going to say that they may degrade the sound by the fact that there is one more connection in the chain.....)





DecentLevi said:


> I think H1 was on the fence on that one, but myself and others had notices absolutely no loss of purity with the socket savers - though I would imagine one with fancy intercconects may bring changes



Hi guys...on the fence DL?...NEVER, mon ami! 

IMHO, especially when everything else in the chain has the bar set high, it only makes sense to me to minimise as best can _any and all_ extra connections. But then, all ears are different lol!! And if losing the connector isn't possible/feasible, then I'm convinced one is advised to have those connections made _to the highest quality possible_. This was also highlighted to me recently when I used better quality RCA plugs on a set of Neotech UPOCC silver interconnects...even when the first ones were pretty nice Rhodium plated copper ones lol!! And, as I covered on the Euforia thread, even more noticeable improvement came when removing the plugs altogether!!! ...YMMV!!......

ps. My adopted mantra : "The best connector is *no* connector" I cannot claim credit for alas...it has come from extensive research into historic words of wisdom from DIYers who know far more than all of us here put together lol!! ...CHEERS!...CJ


----------



## mordy

hypnos1 said:


> Hi guys...on the fence DL?...NEVER, mon ami!
> 
> IMHO, especially when everything else in the chain has the bar set high, it only makes sense to me to minimise as best can _any and all_ extra connections. But then, all ears are different lol!! And if losing the connector isn't possible/feasible, then I'm convinced one is advised to have those connections made _to the highest quality possible_. This was also highlighted to me recently when I used better quality RCA plugs on a set of Neotech UPOCC silver interconnects...even when the first ones were pretty nice Rhodium plated copper ones lol!! And, as I covered on the Euforia thread, even more noticeable improvement came when removing the plugs altogether!!! ...YMMV!!......
> 
> ps. My adopted mantra : "The best connector is *no* connector" I cannot claim credit for alas...it has come from extensive research into historic words of wisdom from DIYers who know far more than all of us here put together lol!! ...CHEERS!...CJ


Hi h1,

I would go as far as to say that not every person has as sensitive hearing as some others. I would not be surprised if an inexpensive socket saver made some sonic difference, but I cannot hear it.

In the past there was a discussion if a ferrite core on the anode wire of anode cap tubes (installed to eliminate electric noises) would change the sound. I submit that I may have heard a difference with the ferrite core attached to a wire  (not with an anode wire), but it was ever so slight, or ... imagined. But I don't rule out that a sensitive ear could pick out a difference.

My hearing has the age related treble fall off, but for me the main thing is to enjoy the music.......


----------



## DecentLevi (Oct 24, 2017)

Well, socket savers are a must for me, to prolong the life of those special sockets in Euforia. Once I'm able to get my Euforia rig set back up, I'll plop in some of my most resolving tubes with a detailed headphone and give the A/B with / without socket savers another whirl, but I do recall not being able to hear any difference when briefly doing that before... if no difference still can be audibly noticed, then no socket saver can ever make it sound better than when connected directly.

A quote from a recent audiophile thread on the general forum Quora (though subjective)
_"no cable in the world will sound better. A given system has a given response and you can not change that with a cable. In other words they know that what a cable can do is deteriorate the signal, some more than others. They know that the best cable would be no cable at all and the “trick” is to find the cable that does the least damage to the signal. They know the cable can be used as a “filter” to change the outcome but they know exactly what the cable is doing and why."_


----------



## DecentLevi (Oct 24, 2017)

For reference, here are the newer Feliks Audio threads:

*Feliks-Audio ELISE...New thread
  as of Oct. 1, 2015*
*Feliks Audio Elise Impressions Thread – a New Start (please read first post for summary)
  as of July 7, 2016*
*Feliks Audio tube amps
 Most current, for all Feliks Audio amps*
*Feliks-Audio EUFORIA - A Wolf in "Sheep's" Clothing...
 Euforia tube amp thread*


----------

